BEAT-LIST-950622

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:08:09 +5000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Authenticated sender is <joehler@[198.51.81.100]>

From: James Oehler <joehler@SUCCESS.NET>

Subject: Burroughs&Bukowski

Hello all,

I just joined to the group too. And I just heard someone mention

Bukowski, his books are great. I have read practically all of them, I

especially like what he has to say about people, that all of us

insane only a few a are sane. Which is quite true, but I am still on

the insane side for now. There is some other things I like about him

that I cant remember right now. So any Burroughs readers out there,

so far I have only read "Junky", which is an interesting book. By the

way has anybody read his sons (I know he died) books i know he has one out

called

"Speed in combination w/ something else. Any new books by Bukowski

out yet? Anybody see "Barfly" that was a great movie. Also did

anybody pick up the record w/ William Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, that

is a great record. Never heard of Vollman can someone email a reply

and tell me who he is. As far as Kerouac books go I havent got into

him yet, all though my dad has all his Kerouac books layin around the

house, maybe I ll pick one up. But right now I am reading "Birth of

tradgedy" by Friedrich Nietzsche, pretty interesting so far. Alrighty

hope this sparks up some talking, cuz I am interested in those ?'s I

asked.

Later

__________________________________

joehler@success.net

__________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 11:12:33 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Baker <c60wxb1@CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <47D61018EF@bville.nwsc.k12.ar.us>

please take me off this list as fascinating as it is takes too much

time.Good luck to you all and best wishes to Bill G. Bill Baker.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 08:57:54 PDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject: Re: Kerouac audio tape

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950629095046.19148A-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Stan Bernstein <sbernst@PANIX.COM writes:

------------------------------- Original Message --------------------------

At a Street Fair on Carmine Street in Greenwich Village, New York City

about five years ago, a vender had set up his table with "Spoken

Arts"-type tape casettes. I purchased one called "Jack Kerouac & Neal

Cassady--a private recording 1953--1954." The notice within the casette

case reads: "Jack & Neal together 1953-54 @ Cassady's house, San Jose,

CA. Neal reads Proust; Jack tries to correct his pronunciation of

'Gilberte'; Jack sings and reads from Dr. Sax. Neal approves, Neal

discusses Burroughs, Comment by Carolyn; 1967,8(?) reading from Vanity of

Dulouz and talking." Publisher of the casette is listed as Cassette

Gazette, 83 rue de la Tombe Issoire 75014 Paris, France.

-------------------------End Original Message ----------------------------

This note brings back memories. I lived for the last four months

of 1972 with Carolyn Cassady, and I heard that recording on the old

boxy rell-to-reel on which it was recorded. I particularly recall

Jack leaning into the mike while Neal was intoning in the background

now with his `Jeeeeeel-bahrt!' corrections during a recitation from

Proust.

Sure like to know if it were available generally...

.+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

| <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of |

| NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers. |

`+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:18:19 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kirk Moe Brown <kirkmoe@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: The tongue of angels

In-Reply-To: <9506291458.AA21174@comdev>

I wanted to thank Kristin and everyone else for making this list

come alive. The silence that first greeted my subscription was

disheartening -- I wondered how a list on the Beats could possible not

buzz with heartfelt, spontaneous conversation. I guess we were all just

a little shy...

I think it makes perfect sense for us today to find new sources of life and

energy in the Beats. Generation X or not, perhaps for all of us the

Beats single a strong, generational, and general voice of disbelief in and

dissaproval of a world gone mad with consumerism and the strength of

machine organization.

For me, I see the beats rejecting that accepted

version of insanity for another version, perhaps rooted in, and at least

influenced by, the classics of the past. The beats traded the grim

reality of atomic-age living for revealing in the vitality of their own

lives, dreams, aspirations, and just general angelicness.

Unfortunately, I think the Beats leave us with something of a mixed bag.

Kristin pointed out the treatment of women in OTR. I find it disturbing,

too. I think that, in a way, Beat shortcomings in that area can be a

saving grace for the work. We see that the Beats weren't infallible

sages, but seekers just like us. Perhaps we can model ourselves after

their bravery and spirit, but with new emphasis on a more inclusive

vision of life and ourselves.

I hope this isn't too pedagogical for this list. I really just wanted to

say thanks to everybody for writing -- I've loved reading your stuff.

Kirk

______________________________________________

"To see clearly, you must first listen carefully."

Jaime Rodriguez La Raza

(on the eve of the LA Rodney King trial riots)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:23:04 BST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject: Dressed up like a carcrash

To all the Bukowski devotees - yeah! I read 'Post Office' and it really is

a fresh breeze. 'In the morning it was still morning and I was not dead..'

Adieu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:17:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: The tongue of angels

There's a lot to this. You can't expect Kerouac, who was just a regular

young guy of the 1940's with a prodigious talent, to have absorbed all the

politically correct mores we (try) to live by now. And he was the chronicler

of it all, more than he was that much of an active participant. We

understand the whole movement because of his skill in bringing it to us so

vibrantly. I think it's possible to love Kerouac's writing without getting

particularly excited by the lifestyle it portrays, or especially liking the

rest of the work that others put out. HOWL was a genuinely astonishing piece

of work, original and revolutionary, but (and I realize I may be destroying

the good-natured tone of the group over the last few days) the rest of it is

pretty second-rate, the spontaneityof it really a copy of what Kerouac had

come up with as a new approach to writing.

Also remember that Kerouac, ageing and drunk, caused a lot of trouble in the

mid 60's by blasting off against anti-Vietnam war demonstrators. I think

quite a lot of us might not have liked him too much. He's still my literary

hero though

Nick W-W

>I wanted to thank Kristin and everyone else for making this list

>come alive. The silence that first greeted my subscription was

>disheartening -- I wondered how a list on the Beats could possible not

>buzz with heartfelt, spontaneous conversation. I guess we were all just

>a little shy...

>I think it makes perfect sense for us today to find new sources of life and

>energy in the Beats. Generation X or not, perhaps for all of us the

>Beats single a strong, generational, and general voice of disbelief in and

>dissaproval of a world gone mad with consumerism and the strength of

>machine organization.

>For me, I see the beats rejecting that accepted

>version of insanity for another version, perhaps rooted in, and at least

>influenced by, the classics of the past. The beats traded the grim

>reality of atomic-age living for revealing in the vitality of their own

>lives, dreams, aspirations, and just general angelicness.

>Unfortunately, I think the Beats leave us with something of a mixed bag.

>Kristin pointed out the treatment of women in OTR. I find it disturbing,

>too. I think that, in a way, Beat shortcomings in that area can be a

>saving grace for the work. We see that the Beats weren't infallible

>sages, but seekers just like us. Perhaps we can model ourselves after

>their bravery and spirit, but with new emphasis on a more inclusive

>vision of life and ourselves.

>I hope this isn't too pedagogical for this list. I really just wanted to

>say thanks to everybody for writing -- I've loved reading your stuff.

>Kirk

>______________________________________________

>"To see clearly, you must first listen carefully."

>Jaime Rodriguez La Raza

>(on the eve of the LA Rodney King trial riots)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 20:37:28 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: The tongue of angels

In-Reply-To: <199506291712.AA239905939@lulu.acns.nwu.edu> (message from Nick

Weir-Williams on Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:17:13 -0500)

> From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

> HOWL was a genuinely astonishing piece of work, original and revolutionary,

> but (and I realize I may be destroying the good-natured tone of the group

> over the last few days) the rest of it is pretty second-rate,

What specifically was second-rate?

> the spontaneity of it really a copy of what Kerouac had come up with as a

> new approach to writing.

He didn't come up with it. Cassady did.

> Also remember that Kerouac, aging and drunk, caused a lot of trouble in the

> mid 60's by blasting off against anti-Vietnam war demonstrators.

Huh? You think nobody was blasting off against demonstrators in the 60's?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:36:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

In-Reply-To: <199506291614.MAA22819@a.success.net>; from "James Oehler" at Jun

29, 95 12:08 (noon)

> that I cant remember right now. So any Burroughs readers out there,

> so far I have only read "Junky", which is an interesting book. By the

> way has anybody read his sons (I know he died) books i know he has one out

> called

> "Speed in combination w/ something else.

How and when did Billy Burroughs die??

Tracey

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 12:37:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Scott <kerouac@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>

Subject: Burroughs

Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

Scott Gillaspie

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.950629123651.1561C-100000@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>;

from "Scott" at Jun 29, 95 12:37 (noon)

Was inquiring about Burroughs son.

sorry for the misunderstanding.

> Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

> Scott Gillaspie

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:18:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew J Schwartz <schwrtz@MAGICNET.NET>

Subject: Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

>How and when did Billy Burroughs die??

>Tracey

According to Ted Morgan's brilliant biography of his dad, Literary Outlaw,

Billy died at 6:35am March 3 1981 of complications due to a liver

transplant. the Actual wording was, "acute gastrointestinal hemorage

associated with micronodular cirrhosis"

Andrew Schwartz

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 14:03:43 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT from

<milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:44:09 EDT Tracey L. Milton said:

>Was inquiring about Burroughs son.

>sorry for the misunderstanding.

>> Just wanted to set the record straight--Burroughs is still alive and kicking.

>> Scott Gillaspie

William Burroughs Jr. died of Cirrhosis (?) after a liver transplant in the

late 70's-early 80's, if I am remembering correctly. I recommend the excellent

Burroughs Sr. Biography titled Literary Outlaw written by Ted Morgan. Great

reading, excellent photographs. I know Billy B.'s first two books, Speed and

Kentucky Ham are in print (and in fact actually available in a single volume),

but does anyone know if the third one (titled, at least according to the Ken-

tucky Ham liner notes, Prikitti Junction, though I'm not sure about the spell

ing) is available? Burroughs Jr. possessed a magnificent talent (my opinion),

it's a shame his excesses blew it out so early.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 13:56:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs&Bukowski

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

liver failure...he got liver transplant in 1976 and continued drinking. i thin

k he died in 1981 at the age of 34 or 35.

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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 17:01:12 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Richard Beban <RBEBAN@DELPHI.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

> JoAnn Ruvoli wrote:

> Kerouac thought of writing as a performance, like a jazz musician who

> has only one chance to perform a night, Kerouac wrote (performed)

> straight through. You can't change or revise a improv jazz solo, and

> Kerouac believed the same about writing.

Au contraire. It's a wonderful, romantic myth that Kerouac's writing sprang

full-blown, first-draft, like Athena from the forehead of Zeus, but the man,

like all great writers, was a craftsperson who revised his work. Writing is

rewriting.

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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 18:17:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: Bukowski & the Beats

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95062911520612@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Win Mattingly" at

Jun 29, 95 11:05:19 am

On June 29 Win Mattingly wrote:

> Also, what about Bukowski? Again, not strictly a beat but definitely some

con-

> nection. Does anybody know about any Bukowski lists?

I am curious how others square Bukowski with the

Beats (or vice versa). I'm thinking primarily of Ginsberg.

Obviously Bukowski & Ginsberg share markedly different

backgrounds--geographically, economically, and politically.

And the two right away took vastly different approaches toward

how to position themselves in academic literary circles. In

terms of the poetry itself--and in terms of their shared

audiences--the two are similar enough that I wonder why they

rarely overlap (at least) when folks talk about contemporary

poetry.

Bukowski seemed to work so hard to carve himself a

solitary "outsider" position in literary circles that he left himself

no choice but to distrust Beats for their popularity and assimilation

(as treacherous as we all know assimilation can be).

Unfortunately, I can't go to my books and look for Bukowski

references to Beat writing, because I'm moving Saturday, and

all books are packed away. I do remember, though, that Neeli

Cherkovsky's biography of Bukowski portrays him, at best, as

indifferent to the Beats (again I'm thinking primarly of

Ginsberg). Even this indifference seemed a constructed pose,

though, from what I could gather in the rest of the (excellent)

biography, and from Bukowski's poetry and fiction as a whole.

I'm curious about what others think. The form and

content of Bukowski's work shares Beat sensibilities to a certain

significant extent, yet I've never seen the two camps meet

beyond indifference.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Trigilio * "How do you know but ev'ry Bird that

* cuts the airy way, / Is an immense world

* of delight, closed by your senses five?"

atrigili@lynx.neu.edu * (William Blake)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 15:51:48 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

' Twas written:

>I just discovered Vollman, myself!

I think I would like to discover Vollman. Is he the same William

Vollman who recently wrote a feature in Spin magazine regarding the

Oklahoma bombing?

Jeff Questad

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:03:24 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Joyce Johnson

I came to Kerouac when I was sixteen, which I guess is fairly normal.

That was 36 years ago. My eldest son is 24, and starting to straighten his

life out after a few foolish episodes. Four or five years ago he started to

take off for weeks at a time --just bumming around. Eventually, the light came

on. I said, Have you been reading Kerouac? He had, of course -- thought On

the Road was wonderful and wanted to act it out. Brought a lot of things back

to me. What I really wanted to say, though, was: how many people out there

share my view that Joyce Johnson could write the ass off the rest of them?

That, of that whole crew of writers and poets (for whom I still feel an immense

kinship and affection), she was the best of the lot? But that, because she was

a woman, that could not be recognised? the best of the lot? But that, because

she was a woman, that could not be recognised?

John Lynch

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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 16:20:13 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Questad <questad@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: My first time

I think this list is going to be alot of fun. There are apparently alot

of young readers maybe young writers here encountering Kerouac for the

first time and perhaps finding the first literature that speaks to

them. Seems to be the most common theme, the sweetness, honesty and

appeal of Kerouac's novels for readers who have never been able to

relate to more "academic" writing. Probably almost all of us who love

Kerouac feel something more akin to love and fellowship than the kind

of respect you'll later feel for Joyce, Shakespeare or Hemingway, say.

And I'd bet also most of us read him young and may or may not have

continued to read his books later. This is not to say he's a kid's

writer. There is much that is serious and important in Kerouac.

I think On The Road may have been the first "real" novel I found on my

own, read on my own, loved on my own, and would stand up for. I was

probably 15, and I think I'd read nothing but Sherlock Holmes stories

to that point. The rest of that summer in Bandera, Texas I sought out

other Jack books and read Dharma Bums, Dr Sax, Desolation Angels, and

Maggie Cassidy at least. Maybe others.

Over the years my literary opinion of Kerouac has wavered, but reading

some of these posts reminds me of the first time books spoke to me.

Jeff Questad

Austin 6/29/95

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Date: Thu, 29 Jun 1995 18:27:33 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lisa Bonelli <BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac Thesis

From: SMTP%"Postmaster@sonoma.edu" 28-JUN-1995 12:50:52.67

To: BONELLI

CC:

Subj: Undeliverable Mail

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:50:50 -0700 (PDT)

From: Postmaster@sonoma.edu

Subject: Undeliverable Mail

To: <BONELLI>

Bad address -- <beat-l@cunyvm.edu>

Error -- Nameserver error: Unknown host

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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:50:49 -0700 (PDT)

From: BONELLI@sonoma.edu

To: beat-l@cunyvm.edu

Message-Id: <950628125049.2060084b@sonoma.edu>

Subject: Kerouac Thesis For Real

From: SMTP%"Postmaster@sonoma.edu" 28-JUN-1995 12:47:28.60

To: BONELLI

CC:

Subj: Undeliverable Mail

Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:47:26 -0700 (PDT)

From: Postmaster@sonoma.edu

Subject: Undeliverable Mail

To: <BONELLI>

Bad address -- <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.SONOMA.EDU>

Error -- Nameserver error: Unknown host

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Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:47:25 -0700 (PDT)

From: BONELLI@sonoma.edu

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.edu

Message-Id: <950628124725.20601802@sonoma.edu>

Subject: Kerouac Thesis

I am really glad this list has started, as I am in the planning stages

of my thesis, which will be on Jack Kerouac. I spent several months

researching his work, and him (which are hard to seperate, quite often) and

became hooked. I, too, am hooked into a spiritual connection with the author

which is hard for me to comprehend: he is often sexist and mostly a complete

ass to women, both in life and his writing. Yet, I am haunted and intrigued

by the relationship he had with Neal Cassady, allen, J. Clellon Holmes,

Burroughs and others. Also, the way he turned against his peers/fellow

"Beats" towards the end of his alcohol-induced delusionial life. I have

found just about all there is on Kerouac, so I hope to find out more from

this list. . .keep me posted, and also would like to hear from anyone

who has also done grad. work on Kerouac, or who sees or is exploring the

connections between Whitman's "Leaves of Grass" and Kerouac's "On the Road."

Dig it,

Lisa B email me at: bonelli@sonoma.edu

End of returned message

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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:07:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

BEAT-L)

' Twas written:

>I just discovered Vollman, myself!

Then this was written:

>I think I would like to discover Vollman. Is he the same William

>Vollman who recently wrote a feature in Spin magazine regarding >the

Oklahoma bombing?

Yep. He's a contributing editor to Spin. He also wrote a piece on

voodoo (I think) for the Spin Anniversary issue in April. I missed that one

--boo hoo.

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:57:20 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Damion Doohan <Damion001@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ginsberg quotation

>From the interview with Allen Ginsberg in Magic Blend, July 1995:

Ginsberg: "There was this explosion into a spoken poetry, which Kerouac

excelled at, and that ignited interest in Bob Dylan, who said that Kerouac's

_Mexico City Blues_ was the first American poetry book that really spoke to

him. I asked him why and he said, 'It's the only book of poetry I ever read

that spoke in my own language-- American rhythms and diction.' This was a

conversation we had at Kerouac's grave in Lowell, Massachusetts. So between

myself and Kerouac and a few others who influenced Dylan, this caused the

whole explosion of popular song."

Damion

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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:57:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Damion Doohan <Damion001@AOL.COM>

Subject: Ginsberg and NAMBLA

At the begining of the recent Magical Blend interview by Tom McIntyre of

Allen Ginsberg it says "The recent sale of his collected memorabilia to

Stanford University became an explosive topic when the executive board of

that august bastion of conservatism discovered his relationship with NAMBLA

(North American Man Boy Love Association)." I knew of Ginsberg's support of

NAMBLA but hadn't heard that this was an "explosive" topic. What happened?

They bought the stuff anyway, right? So were there protests or something,

what form did the explosion take?

Damion

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 06:38:08 -0400

Reply-To: au405@freenet.Buffalo.EDU

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Harold Boss <au405@FREENET.BUFFALO.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac

In the 7/28-29 list someone downplayed Kerouac's jazz-inspired

writing by asserting that he was a craftsperson who revised his

work. This sent me running upstairs to look over an issue of

the "Paris Review" which had an articleabout the time Kerouac

submitted OTR for publication. Naturally, I can't find it right

now. I see that issue 40 (Winter-Spring 1966) is missing.

Perhaps it was that one. Who knows, itt's probably in the

attic. I'll search it out sometime.

Anyway, if memory serves me, Kerouac typed ONT in one night

in a mind-altered state (I forget the substance). No

puncuation, no nothing. Just one continuous paragraph on one

of those long computer papers.

He gave it to Carl Solomon who was at Random House ( a

relative gave him the job out of pity). Carl, apparently,

freaked out and tried to put it into some sort of

traditional apparence - like paragraphs and puncuation.

There was some kind of prolonged fight about OTR's

final form, but editor Solomon (who by the way, has

a few interesting books of his own) sort of won out.

Craftsperson he was. But he also knew how to blow a riff.

The above is from memory. And of something I read 30

years ago. It could be entirely screwed-up, but I do

remember being terribly impressed.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 09:33:48 -0400

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From: Madeleine Charney <m_charney@FOMA.WSC.MASS.EDU>

Subject: Re: My first time

It is interesting how many people remember reading OTR during the

summer. Makes sense; it tends to be the more carefree season. This

season also found me, at 17, with book in hand.

I was teaching at a summer camp that year. Clad in green suede sneakers

(year, 1980) and large men's shirts, I was at that experimental age.

Open to anything new.

Although I wasn't in the place (didn't have the courage?) ti take

off and live a life like Kerouac's, I did relate to what I read

by simply sleeping outdoors every chance I got. Beside the lake,

in the dark, I often thought "There's got to be more out there."

And now as an adult I have the opportunity to explore that

moreness.

Thanks to all on the list for stimulating that memory in me.

-Madeleine

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:54:40 BST

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From: James Douglas Jack - Tartan Warrior! <jjack@MPC-UK.COM>

Subject: Re: My first time - really that transcendent ?

In-Reply-To: <95063009334863@foma.wsc.mass.edu>; from "Madeleine Charney" at

Jun 30, 95 9:33 am

I'm just about to go camping around France for 2 weeks.(Work dictates etc.)

And, as a long-time fan of Ginsberg, Corso, and many other 'Beat-affiliated'

writers(Vonnegut, Whitman, Thoreaux, Blake, and so forth) I've been sweetly

impressed by the strength of devotion to Kerouac's 'On the Road' on this

list. So, my question is : should I get this and read it as I'm travelling/

relaxing? Or should I stick to my original plan of blasting 'The Brothers

Karamazov' at last?

Peace and bubbles,

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 10:00:41 EDT

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From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: The Ju-Jitsu Monkey (a story)

Ju-Jitsu Monkey

...the evening star must be drooping and shedding

her sparkler dims on the prarie, which is just

before the coming of complete night that blesses the

earth, darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and folds

the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's

going to happen to anybody besides the forlorn rags

of growing old...

Jack Kerouac

I fell asleep against the gas station wall, a sign reading

"West" on my lap. Time that seemed snap-your-fingers quick zoomed

by, and I was being shaken awake. I woke out of whatever world I'd

drifted into, and felt I was re-enetering that world where folks

aren't supposed to sleep against gas station walls. As I hit

atmosphere, I was already collecting together my bags, my guitar,

and my sign, figuring without being told that it was once again

"move along" time. I started getting to my feet, and then focussed

on who it was that had given me the shake.

"Hey, Pal, these guys are wondering if you want a ride?"

The man who'd woke me was sort of leaning over me, and his

voice and eyes were matched with a child's laughing quality. This

was no child, though.

His hair was grey and thin, and he had a stomach that only

decades of alcohol can produce. He had on an old flannel plaid

shirt, and worn-out khaki pants, unlaced hiking boots, and no

socks. Standing over me, he was as big as a cloud, but, like a

Russki circus bear, no threat. This mountain was not about to

charge into the gallery and maul the wide-eyed children, but was

getting ready for the act where he wears the enormous ruffly collar

and rides around the ring on a unicycle.

In his childeyes, there was a softness that told the world

that all's fine. He was standing over me, with his elbows resting

on his knees, laughing.

"These guys are riding all the way to Calgary! They're

wondering if you want a ride!"

There was a red Ford pick-up pulled up at the curb, with two

young kids in the cab, waving to me.

"If you're riding, come on!" they yelled.

"I've been riding with these guys since Montreal," continued

my escort, "and you aren't gonna find a sweeter passage."

I tossed my gear into the truck. We jumped into the back, and

I heard my travelling partner laugh as he saw my expression.

"These guys are hauling forty sleeping bags to Calgary. All

they want us to do is keep 'em weighted down!"

He pointed to a cooler, and I pulled out a couple of beers.

I tossed one to his side of the box, which he caught with a little

celebration's flourish. The truck pulled back out onto TransCanada

1, and, yee-hah!, we were on our way west.

"Without a doubt, Pal-- this is the sweetest passage ever

existed!" screamed the bear. Everything he said he screamed, and

everything he screamed was joyous and innocent. Words flew out with

exclamation marks tied on like kite tails.

I silently sang a hymn to our barelling along, following the

sun. I'd been spending too many months and years strapped to the

east, and now saw north and south travel as wasted time. Greed-in-

motion had taken over the entire seaboard, and varied only in

temperature along the coast. Take your Hamptons and your

Lauderdales, Bloomingdales, Kitty Hawks, and gawk at the gimme-

gimme-gimme as they line each town's Fifth Av, rubbing big

overcoated shoulders at the newstand and saying "Bill-- I didn't

see you at church last Sunday" and other such nosebody nonsense.

Anyway, I'd finally managed to cut the ropes with one more trip

north, for to have missed Toronto and its Elizabeth Campbell in the

summer would have been the wrong mistake. With that city put to

rest, and Liz put on hold ("Of course I'll be writing!" I tell her

as I walk down the lonely morning driveway-- having for some reason

refused a ride to the interstate), I was ready to pull away from

the east. Fare thee well to the Hudson and the Chesapeeque, fare

thee well, Tarrytown and Northport and St. Albans and the countless

other burgs where I'd been stuck alongside the shoulder, under the

overspasses waiting for the rain to piss and pass, behind huge

signs with their inscriptions (Been here too damn long, Bob From

Annapolis, June, 1968) and other such nonsense written down to

relieve the frustration of the time weary hitch hiker and also

enough to make the next bum along the way read the words and wail

in desperation's misery, for the only way to hitch hike is to plan

it slow-mo, and the only way to hitch hike is to party solo.

And now we were loose from it all, breaking out to where there

was enough air and space to look around and breathe it all in.

Heading west, and there's nothing like the feeling in the whole

world, nothing that's ever made me feel as free and wheee! as lying

back in that red truck's bed on my own bed of delivery duckdown

sleeping bags, taking a good, cool slug of the bear's beer and

watching the sun pass over my head and forward, calling me out to

the plains and Mississippi valley and lakes and rivers that I've

only known as lines on maps. It was hello to a new world, and new

people, and rodeo my rodeo.

Finally heading west. I wanted to scatter the ashes of

whatever the hell it was that I was finally able to shake alongside

TransCanada 1, where it could drift and blow in the jetstreams of

balling deisels, deciding west or east of its own. As for me, I'd

cashed-in. I looked over to the bear, who sat, looking back to

where we'd been, with a cheesburg grin. He must have read my mind,

holding up his beer can and shouting, "Fuck you, East Coast!" and

laughing loud enough to get the rest of the world that cared to

join along with him on the refrain.

"Fuck You, East Coast!" I screamed with the bear, and we were

joined on the third repeat by the kids in the cab, all of us

laughing as we balled our way to the horizon, the edge of the

world, and the waiting sun.

The bear, despite this salute and his joy, was a silent

traveller. He sat in the day's passing sun, reading tattered

paperbacks, scribbling pencil notes in the margins, and smiling to

himself. All the while I watched him, though, I thought to myself

why in the name of god does a man his age find himself travelling

alone. I also had a million other questions developing along the

lines of where ya going, who you gonna see, and other such... but

all the time not realizing that the reason he was here, rolling

west, was the same reason I was doing the same. Rolling west in

need of getting from as much as getting to, we were on identical

missions. The afternoon was upon us, and we were pulling into

Kirkland Lake. The two brothers in the cab were weary with their

travelling, having pushed straight through from Montreal without

a good sleep, and so we found a lake and a campspot.

After I helped Tim and Jim set up their tent, the bear and I

moved to the far side of the clearing, so as not to disturb the

boys. I took my guitar out of the case, and the bear pulled a

bottle of whiskey out of his suitcase. I'd been entertaining myself

with the guitar for twenty years, and so had learned a lot of

different styles and types of songs. The bear seemed to enjoy all

of it, though, and had enough of a musical sense to beat out

rythyms in the twigs and branches-- anticipating an ending 'tag'

line or finishing roll with each song.

At one point I started goofing with a sophomoric twelve-bar

blues pattern, and the bear stood up on his traveller's whiskey

legs, and started dancing under a canopy of low pine branches. The

branches hung so close to the ground, that he had to stoop and bend

his knees in order to continue his jungle jitterbug. I finished the

pattern off, and the bear whooped and performed a satorical

backwards flip out from the trees and back into our edge of the

clearing. I rattled my head, trying to make sure I'd taken the

whole scene in. The bear was in one look an ancient bum of a man,

a drunken fellahin, down down down on his luck. In flashes, though,

he became tender, vigorous, and exciting.

He flipped his way back to the spot where we'd set up our

"camp". I stared at him.

"What was all that about?" I asked.

"Welll my boyyyy," he said, mimicking W.C. Fields, "That was

called the ancient dance of the ju-jitsuu monkeyyyy. It was taught

to me by an artful dowager from Escondido.... she had a glass

eye...."

The bear took up his bottle and glugged a slug. We looked at

each other and howled at the setting sun.

I built a small fire, and the bear and I sat staring at the

tiny flames, poking and prodding the twigs and sticks in hopes of

disturbing some unspoken vision. I'd told him about my years in

Africa, and he prodded the pondered flames.

"I tried Africa," he said, no longer in his vaudeville voice.

"Went to Morocco and Algiers, freighted-over to see the same

damned gang that I'd been following around over here. It was like

"Hey man! We are wailing in Tangiers!", and alackadaddy, I was on

my way on some Yugoslavian rust bucket. Mysterious women, daggers

in the teeth..."

"Dawn donkeys pulling rolls of newsprint," I added.

The bear looked over to me.

"Yeah, there was that and I remember the solo voices calling

out great Ramadan prayers-- you could feel the dust settle as every

living thing stopped in silence."

"And then," I added, "Like a big slap in world's face, the

moment is passed-- the solar eclipse shadow pulls away..."

"And the world's turned upside down."

"And the world's turned upside down," I echoed.

I slammed off to sleep, and had dreams of the great unrolling

roads I'd done. TransCanada 1, the Nairobi-Mombasa Highway, the

Nairobi-Addis Ababa scratch in the desert earth, the New Jersey

Pennsylvania Ohio Indiana Illinois Wisconsin Minnesota patrolled

tollways, the lonesome Sahara stretch that busses sad loads of

dusty men and goats from El Eskandria west to Alamein, Matruh,

Rahman, and on to unknown Libya, and the corkscrew down spiral

roadway to the bottom of the volcano world of the Rift Valley

floor. Down each road and dream, the bear is walking at my side.

In the dawn, I stretched and shook off the dew and any desire

to sleep further. The boys were up, and sat around their own fire

with the bear, cooking fish. I walked out from under the pine

branches to where they sat in the smoke.

"You were having a good laugh and hoot last night," said one

of the kids.

"Hey yes," I said, "I hope it didn't disturb you guys too

much."

"Nah-- we slept like death," responded Tim.

"What were up to?" asked Jim.

I looked at the bear.

"An ancient ritual," I said.

"Ah, yesss..." said W.C. Fields, "the dance of the woebegone

ju-jitsuu monkeyyyy..."

I stood up and tried to copy his funny pine needle soft-shoe,

but had to give it up. If I were a dancer, I might been able to

stay with Elizabeth Campbell.

"Hey, bear," I called over to him, "why not show these guys

that crazy dance?"

I looked over to where he'd been sitting, but the bear was

gone.

The two Calgary kids were staring at me, slowly chewing their

fish.

There had been no one.

The boys said nothing, looking down at their farm boots like

children being given instructions. They were stuck with a me -- a

harmless lunatic.

We loaded the gear back into the truck, and took off from

Kirkland Lake. We blasted through Timmons and Iroquois Falls and

Cochrane. We had days and days to go before getting to Calgary--

in fact, when I looked at a map I ached on seeing that our real

direction had been pretty much north since I'd loaded into the

truck.

"Damn," I said softly, "I gotta get west!"

I'd read On The Road in 1970, after Jack had died. Ever since

that warm Nairobi day, though, when I turned the last page as Sal

vanishes around the city corner and the world says goodbye to

forlorn Dean/Cody/Neal, and the children are sleeping and that

blanket which has held so much road and so many people and so much

narrative is once again shook out and cleaned for the next 'bo to

fill up and trample across and sleep in... ever since that day I've

been waiting at the world's shoulders and entrance ramps, sleeping

in ditches, running, hiding from the midnight cruise lights of

protective patrols, and waiting waiting waiting for that time when

for some unknown reason his spirit would drift down from the

celeste, as would one of St. Theresa's petals, and find me on that

road heading north to head west.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:01:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <950629070026_104654329@aol.com>

Francis Ford Coppola is currently auditioning for ON THE ROAD. Do you

all think he's the right director? At any rate, he's doing it. My guess

is, the movie will reduce the book to a text instead of a bible. Al

On Thu, 29 Jun 1995, Gene Simakowicz wrote:

> Wow!

> I just signed on the list a few days ago also. It's great to be here. As for

> the Kerouac reading list, I agree, ON THE ROAD is probably the Bible. How

> about a question to kick off some newsgroup discussion?

> Do you think On The Road would make a good movie?

> If so, whom would you cast in the two main roles?

> Gene

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:46:18 -0500

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From: Willard Goodwin <wgoodwin@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Thesis

Comments: To: BONELLI@SONOMA.EDU

Lisa Bonelli wrote:

> I am really glad this list has started, as I am in the planning stages

> of my thesis, which will be on Jack Kerouac. I spent several months

> researching his work, and him (which are hard to seperate, quite

>often) ...I have

> found just about all there is on Kerouac, so I hope to find out more from

> this list. . .keep me posted, and also would like to hear from anyone

> who has also done grad. work on Kerouac ...

Lisa: At the risk of duplicating what you already know, I list here seven

works about Kerouac (books and dissertations based on research in the

manuscript collections at the Humanities Research Center, University of

Texas at Austin). Of course, there's much more (including more recent

stuff), but since these titles are ready to hand, I thought you might like

to see the list. Best wishes, Will.

Cassady, Carolyn. Heart Beat: My Life With Jack and Neal. Berkeley:

Creative Arts Book Co., 1976.

Charters, Ann. Kerouac: a Biography. London: Andre Deutsch, 1973.

Gifford, Barry, and Lawrence Lee. Jack's Book: an Oral Biography of Jack

Kerouac. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1978.

Hudson, Lee. Beat Generation Poetics and the Oral Tradition of Literature.

Doctoral diss., University of Texas at Austin, 1973.

Hunt, Timothy Arthur. Off the Novel: the Literary Maturation of Jack

Kerouac. Doctoral diss., Cornell University, 1975.

McNally, Dennis S. Desolate Angel, a Biography: Jack Kerouac, the Beat

Generation, and America. New York: Random House, 1979.

Tytell, John. Naked Angels: the Lives and Literature of the Beat

Generation. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1976.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 23:33:49 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac

In-Reply-To: <Pine.3.89.9506301457.C29692-0100000@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu>

(message from DAVIS ALAN on Fri, 30 Jun 1995 14:01:43 -0500)

From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>

> Francis Ford Coppola is currently auditioning for ON THE ROAD. Do you all

> think he's the right director?

Who would you like? I can't think of anybody better than Coppola.

I wonder how well they can cast Dean Moriarty. That's essential. I can't

think of any name actor that can do it.

> My guess is, the movie will reduce the book to a text instead of a bible.

I got news for you, kid. It already is a text.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 13:32:42 -0700

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From: Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac Thesis

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

don't forget nicosia joyce johnson and carolyn cassady's off the road.

there's also a book by a professor and the univ of lowell who befriended kerouac

in the late sixties - i forget his name. interesting book/look at e period

in k's life that most gloss over because it's so depressing.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 15:01:16 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac movie

latest rumors i've heard from levi asher (literary kicks, web page) is

that coppola is directing it, not gus van sant. another rumor is that

dean will be played by sean penn and sal will be brad pitt. all this is

rumor so you didn't hear it from me. check out lit. kicks beat news for

more info than i can remember.

i just subscribed to this list yesterday and i must say i am impressed.

its so great to find others who are into the beats. five years ago i

really had to search for their books, now they're all over. should we

send the gap a thank you note?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 20:07:03 EDT

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From: Ron Morrow <MORROW@ADMIN.HUMBERC.ON.CA>

Subject: Previous Kerouac Movie?

About 5 years ago, a local theatre was showing a film

about Kerouac. I never did see it and can't remember

whether it was a documentary or a dramatic portrayal of

his life. I also can't remember the title.

Does anyone out there remember the title of this movie

and, if you saw it, what it was like?

Ron

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 21:56:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Aaron Hill <adhill@STUDENTS.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac thesis

Howdy,

I don't know if this is your angle or not, but I did some work on

Kerouac's family, and their influence on him. I found that his ties to his

mother (whom he referred to as 'ma mere'), his sister, and catholicism were

at least as profound as those to his friends. Unfortunately for Jack,

these two groups didn't seem to mingle too well and I imagine that this

strained his relationship to both. Oh, don't forget that his family was

French-Canadian and that he didn't speak English until he was 4 or 5. I

read a biography of Kerouac by a French-Canadian author (whose name I can't

remember right now) which explored this aspect of his life in detail. If

you're interested, I can look it up.

Aaron

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 22:01:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Eric Trondson-Clinger <tronson@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

>About 5 years ago, a local theatre was showing a film

>about Kerouac. I never did see it and can't remember

>whether it was a documentary or a dramatic portrayal of

>his life. I also can't remember the title.

>Does anyone out there remember the title of this movie

>and, if you saw it, what it was like?

There was a documentary called just "Kerouac" I believe and Carolyn

Cassady's "Heartbeat" was also made into a move in about 1976 with Nick

Nolte. Haven't seen either of 'em tho...

Submit gloried prose-pics-poetry to the beautiful mag-book-zine Holyboy Road

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"Was it nice, Jack?" - "All women are nice." Larry Smith and Jack

Kerouac