BEAT-LIST-950715

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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 00:54:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: "Mike H. from Md." <mikeh@ACCESS.DIGEX.NET>

Subject: Re: My first time

In-Reply-To: <95063009334863@foma.wsc.mass.edu>

On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, Madeleine Charney wrote:

> It is interesting how many people remember reading OTR during the

> summer. Makes sense; it tends to be the more carefree season. This

> season also found me, at 17, with book in hand.

> I was teaching at a summer camp that year. Clad in green suede sneakers

> (year, 1980) and large men's shirts, I was at that experimental age.

> Open to anything new.

Damn! At the age when I should have been reading Kerouac, I was

reading the classics that everyone else was avoiding! Now, years later.

I'm just starting to catch up!

Thanks for all the comments. If I'd had some of this stimulating

conversation, I would have gotten into Kerouac years ago!

Mike, Lurking in Md.

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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 01:05:18 -0700

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From: Thomas DeRosa <beatnik7@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

i have seen the movie in question, "kerouac". in fact i just got it

yesterday. i ordered it from mystic fire video, via e-mail from their

web page. it's a pretty good movie, the best part being the scene from

the steve allen show where jack read from visions of cody and the last

page of on the road. i've heard him on tape but had never seen him on

film. it was really something. try to find it at a rental place, mystic

fire charged me thirty bucks. for me though, it was well worth it. god

i sound like a commercial don't i? sorry.

as always,

das beatnik7

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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:35:25 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

In-Reply-To: <199507010805.BAA03010@ix5.ix.netcom.com>

_Visions of Cody_

It took me three months, but I think it is Kerouac's finest work. I read

it only after having read everything else of his, including _Pic_.

Michael Bertsch

Athena University

VOU, Inc.

http://www.iac.net/~billp/

Virtual Campus: telnet brazos.iac.net 8888

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 11:59:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Adam Cohen-Siegel Ucberkeley <acohens@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU

We should change this thread to "VoC - Kerouac's finest book". I too am a

steadfast VoC partisan - THAT is the novel I'm always foisting on others -

especially them who disliked OtR.

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:18:25 -0500

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From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-fianl version of

Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus. It's mind-blowing. It

contains an annotated version of the Dharma Bums, clips of Kerouac reading

(including the Steve Allen show mentioned here), clips of Charlie Parker

playing, a kind of family tree of Kerouac and his links with all the Beat

writers, and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that

I never knew even existed. Final version is due out in early Fall, priced

around $40.00 (but of course I gotta go buy a CD-ROM first).

Nick W-W

>i have seen the movie in question, "kerouac". in fact i just got it

>yesterday. i ordered it from mystic fire video, via e-mail from their

>web page. it's a pretty good movie, the best part being the scene from

>the steve allen show where jack read from visions of cody and the last

>page of on the road. i've heard him on tape but had never seen him on

>film. it was really something. try to find it at a rental place, mystic

>fire charged me thirty bucks. for me though, it was well worth it. god

>i sound like a commercial don't i? sorry.

>as always,

>das beatnik7

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 23:54:24 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

In-Reply-To: <199507032013.AA128292395@lulu.acns.nwu.edu> (message from Nick

Weir-Williams on Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:18:25 -0500)

> From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

> At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-final version of

> Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus ... It contains an annotated

> version of the Dharma Bums,

On paper?

> ... and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that I

> never knew even existed.

What? Well come on, man, don't keep us in suspense. What is it like? Is it

just Dr Sax cartoons? When did he do it?

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:49:56 -0500

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From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: kerouac and snyder

hello all--

with regards to books written by kerouac: how do the participants on this

list feel about _dharma bums_?

and on a more practical and personal note, i am doing a paper on

gary snyder (japhy in _d.b._) and his visionary mix of buddhism

and amerindian lore (i.e. shamanism etc.) to forge a 'philosophy'

in which place is very important (having 'roots') but not

dependent on nationality. i'd welcome any input or suggestions!

claudia

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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 00:32:37 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

In-Reply-To: <950703154956.5296@ALPHA.NLU.EDU> (message from THE WORLD IS ITS

OWN MAGIC on Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:49:56 -0500)

> From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

> with regards to books written by kerouac: how do the participants on this

> list feel about _dharma bums_?

This was the second Kerouac book I read (after OTR) and I was expecting

something similar, which is probably why I didn't like it much. It had its

moments, though. It is not nearly as exciting as OTR, and over the years I've

never gone back to reread it. But thinking about it now it doesn't seem so

bad, and its description of the west coast poetry scene was very interesting.

I'd like to go back and check this one out again...

Ginsberg also is down on this book, I think he thought it was too commercial

and that the writing was not Jack's best. Perhaps someone else can recall for

us exactly what he said about it. But I for one have always been a bit

mystified by Ginsberg's estimations of Jack's books -- if I recall he was very

keen on Visions of Cody, which I find long, boring and impenetrable -- and

this is coming from someone with a healthy tolerance for Jack's notorious

self-indulgence.

VoC is not a novel, it's more like a weird kind of reference book...

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 14:57:44 -0700

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From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

In-Reply-To: <950703154956.5296@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Regarding Snyder--

It would be best, in my opinion, to approach Snyder through the Native

American sense of place coupled with Basho's reverence for place. You

can look to Snyder books like _Turtle Island_ and his translations of

Japanese Haiku. The bridge image is Japhy jumping from boulder to

boulder dressed only in a jock strap. You might recall the Japanese

'fundoshi', the sild deaper-like garment now worn by Sumo wrestlers, but

which has a long and glorious tradition in the Samurai culture.

Michael Bertsch

On Mon, 3 Jul 1995, THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC wrote:

> hello all--

> with regards to books written by kerouac: how do the participants on this

> list feel about _dharma bums_?

> and on a more practical and personal note, i am doing a paper on

> gary snyder (japhy in _d.b._) and his visionary mix of buddhism

> and amerindian lore (i.e. shamanism etc.) to forge a 'philosophy'

> in which place is very important (having 'roots') but not

> dependent on nationality. i'd welcome any input or suggestions!

> claudia

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 14:59:15 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Bertsch <mbertsch@ECST.CSUCHICO.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

Comments: To: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

In-Reply-To: <9507032132.AA37502@rs580a.haifa.ibm.com>

Josheph Rodriguez is right--VoC is not a novel, but he is also wrong: it

is more a poem than a reference book.

Michael Bertsch

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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 21:52:26 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder

i agree that _dharma bums_ probably lacks the 'magic' (if that's the

right word) that _on the road_ possesses. from a zen/buddhist

perspective, i think, it illustrates the tension between

studying zen and living zen and it raises the question to which

extent the dharma bums actually did understand the dharma

(clearly, there's more to zen than yabyums)-- but that's the

old scholar vs. practitioner debate that the folks on buddha-l

have recently fought (yet again).

what interests me in synder is his encompassing approach to myth

(i.e. the images he draws out of shamanic rituals and buddhist

philosophy). place figures very importantly in his poetry and

essays, but only as sort of a 'triggering town' (to borrow

richard hugo's phrase). and then there is, of course, the

place of the mind--the back country--to which one must go and

return from to effect change in one's self and one's society.

i wonder if snyder's, at times, mythic/mystic sense of

community, interconnectedness, transcendental awareness

speaks to the readers on this list. if yes, how? if no,

why not?

claudia

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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:26:22 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Previous Kerouac Movie?

> At a conference last weekend, I played with the nearly-fianl version of

> Penguin's new CD-ROM, the Jack Kerouac Romnibus. It's mind-blowing. It

> contains an annotated version of the Dharma Bums, clips of Kerouac reading

> (including the Steve Allen show mentioned here), clips of Charlie Parker

> playing, a kind of family tree of Kerouac and his links with all the Beat

> writers, and amazing reproductions of Kerouac's artwork from his estate that

> I never knew even existed. Final version is due out in early Fall, priced

> around $40.00 (but of course I gotta go buy a CD-ROM first).

Where will I be able to get a copy?

John Lynch

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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 07:31:06 -0600

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From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: A Jack Kerouac ROMnibus

In-Reply-To: <35295@ldta.demon.co.uk>

For full details of this, check:

http://www.penguin.com/usa/electronic/titles/kerouac/

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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 23:51:05 -0400

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From: Mary Maguire 362 7134 <mmaguire@OSM.UTORONTO.CA>

Subject: Re: Kerouac and Snyder

Joseph Rodrigue wrote re _Dharma Bums_:

> Ginsberg also is down on this book, I think he thought it was too commercial

> and that the writing was not Jack's best. Perhaps someone else can recall for

> us exactly what he said about it.

I enjoyed _Dharma Bums_ very much and appreciated it even more once I had

read the Ginsberg biography by Barry Miles, in which many of the _Dharma

Bums_ events are retold using the characters' real names.

Ginsberg, after reading an advance copy of D.B., wrote the following to

Jack:

"The whole thing's a great piece of religion testament book, strange thing

to be published. . . . You settling down in simpler prose, or just tired

like you said? Montgomery is great in there, and Gary is fine too. I

don't dig myself (too inconsistent mentally)(in the arguments). It is a

big teaching book which is rare and spooky."

Barry Miles goes on to say that, although Ginsberg "didn't regard the book

as up to Kerouac's usual standard, this didn't stop him from promoting it

for all he was worth".

_____________________________________________________________________

Mary Maguire

mmaguire@osm.utoronto.ca Toronto, Canada

"... a hum came suddenly into his head, which seemed to him

a Good Hum, such as is Hummed Hopefully to Others."

_____________________________________________________________________

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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 21:52:02 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Thomas Bell <tbjn@WELL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac and snyder and pigeonholes

Claudia writes:

>i wonder if snyder's, at times, mythic/mystic sense of

>community, interconnectedness, transcendental awareness

>speaks to readers on this list.

claudia

I'm curious also. Having heard him in San Francisco

before we both went to Japan (for different reasons), and

then again at an ecology conference in Kansas in the seventies,

and as a distinguished voice from the past giving a reading

in the eighties, I am aware that he and his thought and writing

have changed over the years - as they have changed me.

I think he has managed to break out of the pigeonhole that

controls and strangles the "beats" = their return to popularity

is in many ways, I think, a way of keeping them and the spirit

they represented at the time under control. True followers of

the beats would I feel follow their spirit, and not simply

worship them as if from a faraway time.

Tom Bell

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:18:10 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: ....

As a product of "institutionalized education" I have always done what was

expected of me. I regurgitated grammar and wrote what my

instructor wanted to hear; in a form that he/she approved

of, with proper punctuation, of course...etc, I'm sure you have the idea.

Kerouac goes against all that brainwashing and blind obedience. He has

given me one of the greatest gifts I've ever gotten from an author...the

courage to go against what others want to hear and to listen to my instincts,

at least when it comes to my personal writing. The stuff I churn out on paper

I don't reveal to anyone...but to feel the freedom and to let go of the

control has been the best thing I have ever done for me. Thanks Jack.

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:48:16 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Re: ....

Regarding Kristen VanRiper's observations on the liberating effect reading

Kerouac has had on her prose style, I think we can carry things too far

sometimes. Let's not forget that when Kerouac began his experiments with

spontaneous prose, he had already written a million words and mastered the

more traditional styles of prose composition. He wasn't jettisoning what

had gone before, he used it as the point of departure for his forays into

new modes of expression. This issue reminds me of the message we had last

week wherein a list participant asked whether we though he should spend

his summer reading the classics or reading Kerouac. My answer, like I

think Jack's would be, is "read the classics if you haven't read them."

Kerouac certainly did. He was conversant in the works of all the great

masters of literature, even if he didn't emulate them in his own work.

Kerouac would frequently hide out in one place or another with armloads

of what is considered "great literature" not because he wanted to put

his mind in some jail, but because as an artist he needed to know what

had come before. Much has been made of the jazz nexus in Kerouac's work,

and he clearly was trying to recreate the natural rhythms and expressions

found in the music of Charlie Parker and others. But don't forget that the

great jazzmen were (and still are) the consummate masters of their

instruments. Miles Davis could soar into rapturous flights of inspiration

only because he had honed his skills to the point where intention and

expression were one mind-body event. So, if you don't know how to punc-

tuate a sentence, don't expect to write like Kerouac. If you haven't

read Celine, Blake, Milton and Shakespeare, don't expect to achieve

Jack's depth. If you're not the master of your craft, don't be sur-

prised if your prose is pedestrian. Jack's way is not the lazy,

undisciplined way - that was the insult his critics threw at him.

Recognize the rigor behind the rapture.

Just my thoughts. Not intended as a flame of anyone's POV. Thanks

for reading!

Mark Gordon

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 14:57:39 -0400

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From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Are You On Our Mailing List?

Our mail-order catalogue is filled with the best from Beat writers: Kerouac -

Ginsberg - Burroughs - Corso - Whalen - McClure, many others. Nice used

copies, scarce first editions, recordings, videos, posters, T-shirts, etc.

Thousands of Beat items in stock. Lots of Bukowski too. If you'd like to be

placed on our mailing list, please send your snail-mail address. It's free.

Satisfaction guaranteed. Free Search Service too.

Cisco Harland

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

Tel 508-485-8515

Fax 508-229-0885

e-mail waterrow@aol.com

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 19:35:27 -0400

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From: Tom Peyer <TPeyer@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Are You On Our Mailing List?

Tom Peyer

11005 SW 88th Street #C-107

Miami FL 3376

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:41:16 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Brian Lynch <Brian_Lynch@MUWAYF.UNIMELB.EDU.AU>

Subject: summary

Friends of Beat-L,

I'm going to post this directly to the list, since my "replies" to other

postings don't seem to have made it. The volume of postings is getting hard

to keep up with, so if you're only scanning to find "new" contributions you'll

want to quickly delete this and move on. What I wanted to contribute was a

partial summary of postings to date.

There has been an explosion of activity on this list in the past two

weeks, after a relatively small amount of activity when it first started. The

first postings that I remember had to do with the rumored film of OTR, rumored

to be directed by Coppola, who was rumored to be casting Sean Penn as Moriarty

and Brad Pitt as Sal (or it may have been the other way around). Discussion

about the casting proposed other Hollywood stars (after noting that K.

himself, back then, proposed Brando as Moriarty and Monty Clift as Sal) for

the lead roles--Gary Oldman (Moriarty), Johnny Depp (Sal), etc. A friend of

mine who has written a wonderful novel which conjures up some images of Neil

Cassady exploded over the casting and said the people who should be playing

those parts are in the coffee shops and road hangouts, not in Hollywood

agents' offices.

Another recent topic of interest seems to be "that movie" about Kerouac.

The one I remember was called "What Ever Happened to Jack Kerouac?"--an

excellent video documentary that included the classic film clip of Jack

reading from OTR while Steve Allen improvised jazz on his piano.

The topic of K's writing habits--was OTR produced in one (benzedrine

tended to be a stimulant of choice at the time) mind-altered session, or was

it the product of careful redrafting? I've primarily heard the written in one

session version--although it was probably not done on "computer paper rolls"

(as one friend suggested), since pc's weren't on the scene at that point. I

have read that he had some sort of continuous roll of paper that it was

produced on, though (or maybe I "heard" that--the ongoing oral history of the

Beats). The jazz improvisation, stream of consciousness was definitely an

important part of his writing. As a related thread--Kerouac the poet vs.

Kerouac the novelist: we've been reminded of Mexico City Blues as an important

part of his work (and one that the person who had arrived at reading Kerouac

after being primarily interested in poetry should check out).

Another interesting thread has been the Zen connection to the Beats

(critical appraisal's of Dharma Bums; Gary Snyder's work), and through it some

important observations and challenges concerning the way we perceive "the

Beats"--as a historical period or a way of being/frame of mind and spirit that

continues (maybe both). A related interlinear has been the occasional

surfacing of "critical theory" discourse on the importance of Beat literature

in relation to the "classics"--which aspects of the Beat voice speak to whom

and why.

The "my first time" (reading OTR) thread has produced some remarkably

poignant vignettes--I'd like to try to put them together and make the

collection available to the list.

Finally, one of the things that I value most about the discussion on this

list has been the developing sense of the people who are

contributing--Kristen, Claudia, "jrodriguez" (identified from the email

address), and Mark Gordon (who posted some of the earlier messages that got

the list going and has contributed some valuable insights from a writer's

perspective). Thanks to all of you for enriching the List.

Keep that level of thought and feeling!

Brian

Melbourne, Australia (via Denver, Berkeley, and LA)

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:49:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

i think _db_ was one of those books that had to written (ala j. buffett's

line, "if i can only get it on paper, i can make sense of it all).

but then, all books *have* to written; there needs to be some kind

of urgency. and i think it reads best as an insight on how kerouac

struggled with his understanding of zen and its essence. in that respect

it reminds me of _zen and the art of motorcyle maintenance_.

as to ginsberg's promotion of the book in spite of his reservations

about the relative literary merits . . . ginsberg is a top notch

marketing expert . . . i think about his efforts with Naropa Institute.

that was/is sheer genius.

claudia

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:09:05 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

>i think _db_ was one of those books that had to written (ala j. buffett's

>line, "if i can only get it on paper, i can make sense of it all).

>but then, all books *have* to written; there needs to be some kind

>of urgency. and i think it reads best as an insight on how kerouac

>struggled with his understanding of zen and its essence. in that respect

>it reminds me of _zen and the art of motorcyle maintenance_.

>as to ginsberg's promotion of the book in spite of his reservations

>about the relative literary merits . . . ginsberg is a top notch

>marketing expert . . . i think about his efforts with Naropa Institute.

>that was/is sheer genius.

>claudia

I was just reading in Tom Clark's biography of kerouac that he complained

that the editor (malcolm Cowly, I think) edited out all the catholic parts.

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 02:08:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tom Peyer <TPeyer@AOL.COM>

Subject: Crank Beat-L mail; do not open if you'll be charged.

Sorry to dump all of this extra mail on you all...

First, there was the letter composed only of my name and street address,

which I intended to send only to the people who solicited the beat literature

catalog...

And now this pitiful follow-up, which asks only that you please don't show up

on my doorstep.

Your pal,

Tom Peyer

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 06:36:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: THE WORLD IS ITS OWN MAGIC <952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

timothy--

i haven't read clark's bio of kerouac (yet). what did kerouac say

about the catholic parts being edited out of _db_ by cowley? what sort

of things had kerouac included? it seems to me that catholic myth/ritual

etc. would have given the book a broader range or greater depth

(in the joe campbell sense of comparative mythologies). most

interesting. hm. . . .

claudia

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:33:12 -0500

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From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: zen

Seeing postings about Kerouac and Zen made me realize a sense that I have

gotten from the little I have read by him. In _Visions of Gerard_,

Jack wrote about his Catholic upbringing and his sainted brother.

His exaggerated glorification of Christian ways and Christian people shows

how this way of life, this Catholicism, ultimately absorbs the present and

focuses only on that which may or may not happen in the future. I think it

was his first realization of the "denial of life" and the obsession with an

"afterlife" that people get sucked into...it's what probably gave him the

urge to go on the road...not wanting to be stuck worrying about what would

happen when he died...wanting to be alive.

Regarding the emoting I did yesterday, :), I just want to elaborate...

Jazz is a feeling, true, but there are progressions that one must

learn. Not all feelings make sense or are expressed in a way that others

might understand unless they are clarified. A truly great jazz artist is

one that develops these skills over time...and I do believe that

improvisation is a developed art form. I only wrote that blurb because I

have always had a hard time transferring emotion to my fingers (in music

and writing) and since I've been reading Kerouac, and other authors that

I have neglected for some time, I've been able to express myself. I was

merely basking in the freedom I have found. :) Take it easy. Kristen

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:37:43 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Some thoughts on Kerouac's "method"

Hi. I'm coming out of lurk-only mode to comment on a couple of recent posts

I think may indicate a lack of understanding of Jack and his grounding in

classic literature and compositional styles. THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A FLAME

OF ANYONE. I'd rather disconnect my internet access than get into a war of

words. I just think that we fans of Kerouac can very often fall into the trap

of unknowingly siding with those who criticized him so viciously during his

lifetime. The two posts I refer to are Kristen's recent comment on how reading

Jack has liberated her own prose style from the prison of conventional grammar

and punctuation, and an anonymous post wherein the writer asked whether we

thought he should spend his summer reading the classics or not. I think those of

us who love Jack's work should remember that he was solidly grounded in both

the canon of classic literature and conventional prose composition. Let's not

forget that he had already written a million words by the time he began experime

nting with his spontaneous method. Rather than simply jettisoning what had gone

before, Kerouac used it as a point of departure for his forays into new modes

of expression. When , in Kerouac's name, we reject out of hand the conventions

ofEnglish composition, we run the risk of making the case for Jack's critics

who

accused him of being lazy and undisciplined. Jack had already mastered standard

composition when he wrote OTR. If you haven't mastered it, don't expect to

emulate him. A useful parallel for this is jazz, the source of so much of

Jack's inspiration. Charlie Parker, the father of bop, was a consummate

musician. Before he could soar into flights of rapturous ecstacy, he had to

spend years mastering the rudiments of his instrument and his art. If you were

to ask Charlie Parker to play a Bach fugue, he could do it, though perhaps he'd

prefer not to. Whether it's Jack or Bird, take care to see and hear the rigor

behind the rapture. In the same vein, let's remember that Jack was intimately

familiar with the grat classics of literature. He had read everything from S

Shakespeare to Milton to Celine to Hemingway. Certainly he didn't like it all,

and he clearly didn't emulate it all, but he knew it, and that knowledge gave

a depth to his own work that resonates throughout the Duluoz Legend. In my

own opinion, if you are sitting down to read Kerouac but haven't read Wolfe,

Faulkner or Celine, read them first. Jack did. Again, the charge of his critics

was that his work stood alone, outside the mainstream of American letters, and

that this was chiefly becase the author himself didn't display a familiarity

with the past. Those critics were wrong about Jack. Let's not make them right

about us. Thanks for reading. Sorry for the length. Peace to all.

Mark Gordon

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:46:11 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: _dharma bums_ / ginsberg

In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Jul 1995 21:49:24 -0500 from

<952GRINNELL@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Dharma Bums was the first book that really "hooked" me on Kerouac. The

magic of the hitchhiker and his rucksack, the fabulous opening sequence with

the midnight ghost and the old bum who prayed to Saint Theresa of the Flowers,

and the descriptions of mountain climbing and S.F. poetry renaissance (Howl be-

comes Wail, and of course it is K. who takes up the collection for bottles of

wine), were enough to prompt me at the age of fifteen to get an old duffle bag

and leave what really was (through my now adult eyes) an intolerable home situ-

ation. He taught me to hang out my thumb and trust my instincts, even gave me

a spirituality (zen) to combat the influence of, ironically, a strict catholic

upbringing. For these I'll always be grateful to Dharma Bums. Still, now that

I'm older and have reread most of Kerouac's work several times, I believe

On the Road has far more literary merit. I still enjoy Dharma Bums (and find

something more to like about it every time I read it), but the rhythm and ener-

gy of On the Road are unlike book written before or since, stylistically it is

unique in American literature. In On the Road Kerouac pinned down what it is

to be young and American (and male?). Distance becomes a metaphor for possi-

bility (check out Tom Waits' medley Ballad of Neal and Jack/California Here I

Come for a feel for what I mean). Regarding Dharma Bums, I read a quote from

Kerouac somewhere (Jack's Book?) where he said D.B. was written to allow him to

keep the cupboard full of tins of meat for the cat and jugs of wine, or some-

thing to that effect. While I'm not that cynical (and K. may have said this

later in his life when he was dour about just about everything), I do think

that D.B. is less ground-breaking literature than a good story. Hell, most

writers are lucky if they can pull even that off.

I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans. In my opinion that

book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

reads more like poetry than any other novel K. wrote and represents his spon-

taneaous prose concepts taken as far as he ever took them.

Win Mattingly

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:13:07 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Double Posting

I think I've posted a couple of long messages to the list in the last

couple of days, but I can't be sure because they're not coming to me.

Sorry if I've chewed up anybody's bandwidth. Could someone email me

and let me know whether these messages are getting to all of the other

list recipients or not? Thanks.

Mark

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:37:18 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: The Desolation Angels

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 06 JUL 1995 08:46:11 EDT

I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained

material originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript. I

would love to see a release of _that_ manuscript... when TS Eliot's

Wasteland manuscript was published, I was really drawn in by the notes,

comments, and corrections supplied by Pound, Eliot, and others.

Imagine marketing the teletype manuscript as just that, a roll of paper

(instead of a bound book).

Does anyone know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it

housed?

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:48:58 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Robert Johnson <johnsorl@COLORADO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Double Posting

Comments: To: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

In-Reply-To: <199507061413.AA18291@osfn.rhilinet.gov>

Yes, your messages have appeared. Some list groups do not post

messages back to the sender. Just cc your postings back to yourself

then you can be sure of their arrival to the list at large.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:02:56 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: OTR teletype roll

In-Reply-To: <06JUL95.11471647.0015.MUSIC@NMU.EDU> (JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU)

> From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

> I seem to remember once hearing that Desolation Angels contained material

> originally hacked out of the OTR teletype roll manuscript ... Does anyone

> know whether the roll still exists? If so, where is it housed?

I read a passage from the roll once ... it was quite different from OTR as

published. I can't believe no one has tried to squeeze money out of

publishing the original roll. It would be fascinating reading.

As for the person who was talking the other day about Kerouac never revising

-- get in touch with me. I've got a bridge for you.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:05:17 -0400

Reply-To: ab797@osfn.rhilinet.gov

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mark S. Gordon" <ab797@OSFN.RHILINET.GOV>

Subject: Re: The Desolation Angels

My understanding is that Kerouac typed OTR on narrow rolls of Japanese

wallpaper, double length, which he then taped together to form one

continuous surface. I think that comes from Nicosia's book, or perhaps

Tytell's. I seem to remember also that the rolls were lost or destroyed

when turned in to the publisher for transcription and editing. Then again,

I could be wrong. Thanks for letting me know about the double posting.

I think I've got the hang of the routine now.

Mark S. Gordon

"He not busy being born is busy dying." -Dylan

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 10:32:58 -0500

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From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Subterraneans

To my shame, I only just read 'The Subterraneans'. It is different, and, I

agree, as lyrical and as close to a love story as I think he ever wrote. I

collect old Kerouac paperbacks for the covers as much as anything else (does

anyone else do this, incidentally - you can find some wonderful things in

second-hand bookstores) and The Subterranenans edition I read, I was too

ashamed to read on the Chicago 'L' going to work - clearly being sold in the

70's with a cover both sexist and racist. But the book is a love affair,

really, told in one breath.

Re Ginsberg: he may have claimed not to have liked -DB- but he was happy to

read it on audio (released in the last few years) and take the money...

> I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans. In my opinion that

>book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

>reads more like poetry than any other novel K. wrote and represents his spon-

>taneaous prose concepts taken as far as he ever took them.

> Win Mattingly

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:59:46 -0400

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From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Desolation Angels

rumor has it that:

The OTR teletype roll is presently on deposit at the New York Public Library.

Previous to its move there recently, it sat

in the safe at lit agent Sterling Lord's office.

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 19:57:51 +0300

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: subterraneans

In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%95070609445880@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> (message from Win

Mattingly on Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:46:11 EDT)

> From: Win Mattingly <GMATT1@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

> I'd like to hear some discussion of The Subterraneans. In my opinion that

> book, for all the sexist and racist implications academics will find in it,

Please. What's sexist and racist about it? Try getting out of the dodo PC

mindset and use your brain for a change.

This has to be one of the most self-indulgent books I've ever read. No one

picked up on that? Or do you just fawn over everything you read?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:21:43 -0500

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From: "Matthew C. Curcio" <curcio@BIOC02.UTHSCSA.EDU>

Subject: folklore

Hello

I too have just joined on board with you beats.

I also liked Kirsten interpretaion of _Visions of Gerard_.

Not having a sibling that passed away, I thought the angelic nature of

Jacks younger brother was due to the inocence and beauty of youth.

IMHO I thought this elevation to sainthood was due the lackof outside

forces that played so strongly on Jack's life that did not play on the

child of Gerard. For example, the strict catholic school upbringing that

Jack had which forced conformity of language, societal rules etc on Jack.

seemingly corrupted as the

outside forces of society and post WWII conformity laid down its

oppressive blanket on Jack.

Aother point that seems to dovetail with the sainthood of characters was

something also from the listserv.

Anyway, if memory serves me, Kerouac typed ONT in one night

in a mind-altered state (I forget the substance). No

puncuation, no nothing. Just one continuous paragraph on one

of those long computer papers.

He gave it to Carl Solomon who was at Random House ( a

relative gave him the job out of pity). Carl, apparently,

freaked out and tried to put it into some sort of

traditional apparence - like paragraphs and puncuation.

There was some kind of prolonged fight about OTR's

final form, but editor Solomon (who by the way, has

a few interesting books of his own) sort of won out.

The Folklore that I have seen on the writing of OTR is that

Jack wrote the book on newswire paper. (You know that big rolls that

were used for the old AP machines. The 'Folklore' says that he wrote it

in 3 weeks. Writing for days at a time while on speed and then crashing

for as long. The book may not have contained all the proper punctuation

but it also was written without chapter format. Jack had left all the

names that mattered to him in the first draft,(ie the some of the real

names) and the rest he foughtfor as little editing as possible.

But then again these are only second hand accounts I have read.

Also, I have an other book on Zen that I would like to suggest that is IMHO

better than _Zen and the Art ..._ It is _Zen Flesh, Zen Bones_ edited