beat list october 1995

written a few messages ago by tim bowden <tcbowden@nerdnosh.org> with

reference to JKs lifestyle and his (rapidly re-emerging) mythical

status

>He was the best at what he did, which wasn't politics nor

>philosophy. Anytime he tried to extend that role, as say a

>public personality, he fell flat on his face.

and also to the following text

>Lighten up, people: it's all an illusion, remember?

written by cal godot <godot@wolfenet.com> regarding marketing

methods, i would like to add a stoned bullshit thread that comes

to mind.

in a book called 'sophies world' by jostein gaarder (highly

recommended) the author explains his abstract illustration of

what philosophy really is and means. the first time i read it

i immediately thought JK. the text is

>a greek philosopher who lived more than two thousand years ago

>believed that philosophy had it's origin in man's sense of wonder.

>man thought it was so astonishing to be alive that phiosophical

>questions arose of their own accord.

>it is like watching a magic trick. we cannot understand how it

>is done. so we ask: how can the magician change a couple of white

>silk scarves into a live rabbit?

>a lot of people experience the world with the same incredulity as

>when a magician suddenly pulls a rabbit out of a hat which has just

>been shown to be empty.

>in the case of the rabbit, we know the magician has tricked us.

>what we would like to know is just how he did it. but when it comes

>to the world its somewhat different. we know that the world is

>not all sleight of hand and deception because here we are in it,

>we are part of it. actually, we are the white rabbit being pulled

>out of the hat. the only difference between us and the white

>rabbit is that the white rabbit does not realize it is taking part

>in a magic trick. unlike us. we feel we are part of something

>more mysterious and we would like to know how it all works.

>p.s. as far as the white rabbit is concerned, it might be better

>to compare it with the whole universe. we who live here are

>microscopic insects existing deep down in the rabbit's fur. the

>philosophers are always trying to climb up the fine hairs of the

>fur in order to stare right into the magician's eyes.

'a lot of people experience the world with the same sense of

incredulity as when a magician suddenly pulls a rabbit out of a hat

which has just been shown to be empty'...reminded me of the

incredulity he expresses when describing passing landscapes...or the

weather...or colors...or food in bakers windows...or his close

friends...or the streets he walked along...slept upon...a charlie

parker song...and even talking all night long...

he invokes a sense of wonder (mystical) better than no other author

i have read. i would guess he knew more about life, its experiences

and illusions than most academic philosophers of his generation

(excepting possibly wittgenstein).

i personally think he was a very good philosopher, not in a

traditional "which came first the chicken or the egg" sense, but in

a sense of "i need to find *my* truth, no matter how long it takes

or how far i need to travel". he and his like created a whole

new philosophy for _a generation_. two generations before my birth!

don't get me wrong, i'm not claiming JK should be remembered for

his thoughts on philosophy or politics. and what i'm referring to

is quite out of context to text i've quoted from tim & cal, but his

philosophy for life was unique, poetic and envious. i think he

personally knew of the 'rabbit and the magic trick' and went 'high'

up the rabbits hair in search of the great magician. he wasn't

content to bury himself into the rabbits fur like the rest of society.

JK: 'it no longer makes me cry and die and tear myself to see her go

because everything goes away from me like that now - girls, visions,

anything, just in the same way and forever and i accept lostness

forever. everything belongs to me because i am poor'.

a wise man once said 'the definition of intellect is the ability

to understand abstract ideas'. socrates said 'one thing only i

know, and that is that i know nothing'. JK said 'i accept lostness

forever. everything belongs to me because i am poor' - a valid

philosophy, although maybe a little to abstract for an e-mail

message, still thereyougoforafirstmessage on a (so far) brilliant

mail-list.

as the great cal godot says earlier 'Lighten up, people: it's all an

illusion, remember?'.

joe

newcastle upon tyne

e-mail: 100106.1102@compuserve.com

or joe.carney@unn.ac.uk

pps, if anyone's still reading, are there any beat poetry mailservers?

i like to write poetry, mainly of my beat(ish) lifestyle and would be

very much interested to read others. as a flavour i have included one

for anyone mildly interested:

mother earth, father sky...

on piss-stained seats in the cardboard room we slept thru noon,

the black swan still burning,

transparent in the winterlands,

no 'superman',

no 'think therefore i am',

as agnostic ideas,

spew cyber careers,

in this digital boom,

have we kissed the moon too soon?

on piss-stained seats in the cardboard room we dreamt thru noon,

the black swan still burning,

biblically stoned in the hinterlands,

no 'thank you',

no 'have a nice day',

as the business dreams,

burst open the seams,

of our chemical dreams,

will we run to the sun fore we burn?

on piss-stained seats in the cardboard room we died at noon,

the black swan still burning,

bright white,

in the moonlit sky,

high over the plainlands,

the father sky,

the all seeing eye,

of this ale-stained tearcolored man...

-------------------------------------------------------------------

- the area breathes; it seems to want to tell something intelligible

to me - JK

- the internet breathes; it seems to want to tell something

intelligible to me - joe

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:32:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Mercedes-Benz

Almost, Levi -

The Mercedes-Benz song wasn't originally a poem by McClure -

McClure wrote it specifically as a song during the time he was writing other

songs for a country group named Wildflowers. McClure, after meeting Bob

Dylan, got the songwriting bug and started a music group with Freewheelin'

Frank and his friend Montana.

See ya,

Betsy

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 21:08:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Sallee <Censorus@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: cycles

the postwar think-poles of international politics in america have been

characterized as the europe firsters and the asia firsters.thay was all

anti-communists really but threww this tar ("communism") at each other til

the whole place was a mess. this polar structure can be applied to so many

social formations of that time so long aback - Tom Wolf for 1 used a

permutation of it in" Electric koolaid...." to highlight the tend among

Keroac-cassidy beats and proto-hippies to turn away from the european

elements in American culture toward a true-new America or by extension to an

asian stance... well you can see where i'm agoinrightalong here- Burroughs by

comparison to Keroac is most definaerly "european bound". it is curious to

note how Eisenhower was tarred by the asia firsters as had been True man but

was i think no more the one or the other certainly not of the Henry Luce

purse suassion. So with Keroac, while not Asia bound in the degree of

Ginsburg or Snyder he was tarred as every oppositions fellow traveler and

travel he did..from mind germs like his came boddisatvas munching on

burgers-the America that niether Ginsburg or burroughs could embrace with out

decsending... the hippies i knew and almost loved.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 22:32:09 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Douglas Karpp <GustoEater@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Volvo commercial

At the risk of being the only right winger / business guy here. . .

Who really cares wether they use on the road, it seems oddly appropriate to

me anyway. You read the book, you enjoyed the book, some patterned

themselves after the book. . .why don't you get yourself a volvo and enjoy

the road in luxury.

The idiocy of that statement not withstanding, I submit to you all. . .

who cares it's just a commercial

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:06:51 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Karen L. Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Coppola/Cassady

>But it's a hell of a lot of fun to fantasize about casting: Brad Pitt as

>NC, yes, a la his pathological cowboy in T/Louise;

Absolutly! I can't think of a better person for the role, considering that

Mr. Pitt is from the mid-west and has some of that pathologicial Neal Cassady

charm in real life. The question is would he even consider playing the part?

I think I too would have fallen victim to N.C.'s over-stated charm. I'm like

Sal Paradise in the beginning of _On The Road_ "But then they danced down

the streets like dingledodies, and I shambled after as I've been doing all my

life after people who interest me, becuase the only people for me are the mad

ones..."

Later

DustyJade

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 23:06:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Karen L. Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

>I like the following for key roles in Coppola's "On The Road" film:

>Brad Pitt..........Cassady

>Andy Garcia........Kerouac

>Gary Oldman........Burroughs

>Gary Sinise........Ginsberg

>Steve Buscemi......Huncke

>Julianne Moore.....Carolyn

>Drew Barrymore.....LuAnn

Sounds good to me!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 00:26:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

>>Brad Pitt..........Cassady

Somebody defend this one for me, being that I'd rather see

Brad Pitt stay where he is in his carreer (not a big fan mind you).

I just can't see him in anything but his pot-head character from

_True Romance_..

>>Andy Garcia........Kerouac

Not bad on this one.. I'm impressed!

>>Gary Oldman........Burroughs

Love Gary to death, but Burroughs? Hmmm... He could pull

it off, but I'm just not sure he's the best pick.. Tommy Lee

Jones? Talented.. might look good in fidora... (smile). Mmm,

there has to be someone better..

>>Gary Sinise........Ginsberg

Hmm.. another one I need defended. Mind you, I haven't

seen him in anything but.. Forrest Gump?

>>Steve Buscemi......Huncke

Great call..

>>Julianne Moore.....Carolyn

>>Drew Barrymore.....LuAnn

>Sounds good to me!

The rest I like too.. Drew Barrymore! Nice way to round off

the cast..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 00:43:48 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Katerie Prior <kadaca@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: dream film

In-Reply-To: Your message <3087220E@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com> of Fri, 20

Oct 1995 00:26:18 -0400

>>>Gary Sinise........Ginsberg

>Hmm.. another one I need defended. Mind you, I haven't

>seen him in anything but.. Forrest Gump?

Gary Sinise is actually a terrific actor, and as much as I liked

"Forrest Gump" (irony), the film did not give him the opportunity to

show his talents. Sinise was in the latest version of "Of Mice and

Men," and I think directed it. He's in HBO film of "Truman," coming out

or already shown (I don't know, I don't have cable) I believe he has a

theater company and has done most of his acting on stage.

I know this is sort of an old post, and I'll probably be flamed for

this, but I'm not sure if Sinise would be a good Ginsberg. Granted, with

makeup, he looks a lot like Truman in the HBO film, but he seems more

all American, like JK, than Ginsberg. However, he is an actor......

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:58:16 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mary Maguire <maguirem@CA.CCH.COM>

Subject: Tidbit from rec.music.dylan

The following two messages appeared yesterday on the Dylan newsgroup:

(1) From WITH WILLIAM BURROUGHS/A REPORT FROM THE BUNKER by Victor Bockris:

BOCKRIS: When did you first meet Bob Dylan?

BURROUGHS: In a small cafe in the Village, around 1965. A place where they

only served wine and beer. Allen had brought me there. I had no idea who

Dylan was, I knew he was a young singer just getting started. He was with

his manager, Albert Grossman, who looked like a typical manager, heavy

kind of man with a beard, and John Hammond, Jr. was there. We talked about

music. I didn't know a lot about music-a lot less than I know now, which

is still very little-but he struck me as someone who was obviously

competent in his subject. If his subject had been something that I knew

absolutely nothing about, such as mathematics, I would have still received

the same impression of competence. Dylan said he had a knack for writing

lyrics and expected to make a lot of money. He had a likeable direct

approach in conversation, at the same time cool, reserved. He was very

young, quite handsome in a sharp-featured way. he had on a black

turtleneck sweater.

(2) [The above] reminds me of the time I asked Allen if I could shake his

hand. Tucking his NY Times under his arm, he extended a shaky hand & said,

"I don't know what good it will do." He was right. This also reminds me of

a line in a song I remember hearing a lot. Something like "don't look

back..." It's an old song. Not as old as Burroughs of course, but it was

long ago... & almost far away. It was something about an artist...with no

place to fall...

------------

I was rather moved by this second post, but I'm not sure what the sender

means by "no place to fall" -- certainly not that these three are

washed-up as artists. Truth is, they've all demonstrated astonishing

resilience.

What has always appealed to me, I think, is the way the beat community

remains grounded and reachable. While Jack, Neal etc., were set-off from

mainstream society on principle, they've never, even in death, given the

impression of being removed from us as readers. The writer of the second

post is obviously wistful about times past, but it only comforts me to

know that Burroughs, Ginsberg and Dylan have continued through the years

with us. This is life, there is no place to fall except in death, and I'll

be lonesome when they go.

Just some thoughts on a Friday morning.

_________________________________________________________________________

M. Maguire Toronto, Canada

CCH Canadian Ltd. http://www.ca.cch.com

_________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:04:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: shoes or shorts or whatever...

Gosh, when I brought up the matter of the Kerouac estate selling off

shoes and raincoat, I did so NOT to say there was something

intrinsically wrong with THAT, but to use those transactions and

compare them with what appears to be questionable behavior: the

intransigence of the estate for such a long while. While the estate

seemed certainly willing to sell off such peripheral items as

clothing, the real work, the manuscripts, were being held back

despite numerous requests to publish from many corners. For example,

Lawrence Ferlinghetti has expressed his dismay a number of times at

his inability to publish manuscripts he actually had in hand, despite

his requests, that were given to him by Kerouac with a tacit desire

to have them published, only to have that quashed time and again by

the family, for whatever reason. This certainly calls into question

the desire by the estate to bring to light the work, except possibly

for the highest dollar. This, on top of the selling of personal items

suggests that Kerouac's LITERARY reputation seemed not so much a

concern as that of proffering the man as myth and those items as

artifacts of that myth. I will grant you, though, that the buyer buys

into that fallacy as soon as the money is plopped down.

I think none of us disagrees on the unfortunate circumstances that

seem to surround the estates of many artists. Indeed, there has been

much to suggest that this sort of thing happens almost as a matter of

course. Look at the estates of such artists as Mark Rothko, where

criminal fraud played such a part, and these days the possibility

that many of the late works of de Kooning are not his at all but are

by some apprentice or possibly the man's daughter. The Sampas family

cannot be accused of anything so heinous as this, but the appearance

that their interest may have lain (at one point anyway) elsewhere than

with the literary reputation of the person they were charged to

"represent", was the only observation I was trying to make.

Clay Vaughan

clv100u@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:44:58 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Davis <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Casting...

Hate to beat a dead horse, but wouldn't casting all of these famous, good-

looking beautiful people for _On The Road_ be rather antithetical to the

idea of those living on the edge of society. Something about Brad Pitt as

a man struggling against the constraints of a traditional lifestyle just

doesn't ring true to me.

Were it not for marketing and capital resources, a group of unknowns would

be the ideal cast.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:09:08 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: shoes or shorts or whatever...

Re shoes and shirts and Ferlinghetti and the Sampas.

Who knows what here for sure, I want to point out another possible viewpoint.

Ferlinghetti is the fellow who called Kerouac "just another stumblebum on

the scene."

The Sampas family were lifelong friends of kerouac from his childhood on.

This relationship never faltered even after Jack's best friend's death.

Later he even married into this family. They loved him before he was

famous, after he was famous and after he was messed up later in life. It

seems more likely that "Kerouac's LITERARY reputation" is of more concern

to the Sampas family and that Ferlinghetti is the one simply out to make

some more money (Ferlinghetti could probably use it).

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 19:28:36 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Vicente Garcia Pineiro <vgarcia@GOLIAT.UGR.ES>

Subject: America

dan terkla......if you want to teach your students about

america.......please.....first.....teach them america is not usa only.....i

don't know if even beats learned this......

you have stolen a name: america.....

your capitalists steal everyday to central and south

america.....please.....at least allow another peoples of america call

themself americans......

a lot of people don't get images of america on tv......they get

their images of america in their lifes.....in his/her stomachs.....his/her

hungry is american....his/her ignorance is american......his/her misery is

american......his/her death is american.....

the destruction of amazonia is american....

please......your north american navels are not so important.....

you can believe me.....

some beats knew this.....some of them.....

if you want to know about the image of america......send your

students to ask in guatemala.....cuba......el

salvador.....chile......peru.....bolivia.....

----at least..... i think they can know in what continent are these

countries----

these peoples know on america much more than your students......i am

sure.....if you don't agree.....do a test.....try it....

vic

una pregunta: hablo ginsberg alguna vez contra el bloqueo a cuba??

does he do it now??

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:18:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Susan V. Pulley" <SVPULLE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

> >> I was sickened to hear Mercedes-Benz using Janis Joplin to sell

> >their> vehicles last year on TV,

> >

> >Ummm - wasn't that Joplin's voice asking for a Mercedes-Benz or

did

> >the Mercedes people "dub" that in? Maybe it's unwise to be so

sure

> >of what other people want or think. Although, I do agree about JK

and

> >the Volvo.

> >

> "Ummm" Janis wasn't really asking for a Mercedes Benz. She was

being

> ironic. We call that satire.

Ummm - I think the irony had to do with her asking the Lord for a car

(as we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes)- I was told she

DID own a Mercedes - and, I have a degree in English - quite familiar

with satire, thank you.>

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 08:57:54 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Susan V. Pulley" <SVPULLE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject: Re: the t.v. thing

This list is pretty sophisticated (at least it was). The discussions

were informative, intelligent, and very focused. I don't even mind the

debates - but, I think we're bordering on out and out flaming - which

can (and is) starting to be offensive. I don't think we need to be so

defensive to make a point.

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 15:03:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: the t.v. thing

In-Reply-To: <A4633A05AB@tel1.accusort.com> from "Susan V. Pulley" at Oct 20,

95 08:57:54 am

> This list is pretty sophisticated (at least it was). The discussions

> were informative, intelligent, and very focused. I don't even mind the

> debates - but, I think we're bordering on out and out flaming - which

> can (and is) starting to be offensive. I don't think we need to be so

> defensive to make a point.

funny...i was thinking that nicholas is the first person in this thread

to speak the words that i am not eloquent enough to express... offensive?

i find this talk of obsession with the lobotomy box and what it

"means" to be insulting to anyone who has the mind to turn the damn

thing off and walk out the door....

wake up... it's TELEVISION.... hello?

> It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:04:44 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: America

In-Reply-To: <199510201858.SAA25697@goliat.ugr.es>

Vicente Garcia Pineiro:

Thanks for the cautionary note regarding "America." I do, in fact, teach

my students--or, more precisely--get them to talk about, what the term

means. I think Ginsberg in his poem, "America," and certainly in "Howl"

is concerned with US hegemony, or at least in the abuses of the military

industrial complex:

Moloch whose blood is running money! Moloch whose fingers

are ten armies! Moloch whose breast is a canni-

bal dynamo! Moloch whose ear is a smoking

tomb! ("Howl" 21)

Thanks again for the note.

Dan Terkla

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 14:53:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Heeg <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

"[A]s we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes", but what type

of wishes does the lord grant? It seems a rather naive statement on

your part. And why through around what type of education you have-just

curious. ( I have a degree in history and secondary education, for

whatever reason.)

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date: 10/20/95 2:46 PM

> >> I was sickened to hear Mercedes-Benz using Janis Joplin to sell

> >their> vehicles last year on TV,

> >

> >Ummm - wasn't that Joplin's voice asking for a Mercedes-Benz or

did

> >the Mercedes people "dub" that in? Maybe it's unwise to be so

sure

> >of what other people want or think. Although, I do agree about JK

and

> >the Volvo.

> >

> "Ummm" Janis wasn't really asking for a Mercedes Benz. She was

being

> ironic. We call that satire.

Ummm - I think the irony had to do with her asking the Lord for a car

(as we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes)- I was told she

DID own a Mercedes - and, I have a degree in English - quite familiar

with satire, thank you.>

It's a joy to communicate!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:45:12 GMT

Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: John Lynch <JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: rolling in Grave?

In message <A4BC8D3DA4@tel1.accusort.com> BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes:

> Ummm - I think the irony had to do with her asking the Lord for a car

> (as we know, the Lord does not grant material wishes)

To accept this as true, we have to accept that Janis Joplin believed in this

entity Susan chooses to call "the Lord", and also that, so believing, she

believed that "the Lord" does not grant material wishes.

Am I alone in finding this difficult? Does anyone know of any hard

evidence that Janis Joplin was a believer? And this kind of believer?

John Lynch

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:28:59 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: TV, Volvos, Dreams, & Jack

I have to confess that I have actually found this thread (more like a

tapestry) quite interesting, with a broader range of opinions and

perspectives reflected therein than I might have expected. Something I think

this thread has brought out is the schizophrenic nature of this mail-group.

On the one hand, it is dedicated to literary history - tracing the careers

and past doings of a rather anarchic group of mid-20th century writers

referred to collectively (and not always accurately) as "The Beats". on the

other hand, all of the participants are living in the present moment, and as

such, bring their own ideas and perspectives into this discourse. There's a

tension, in other words, between the "here-and-now" and "what once was", that

can be invigorating.

I was surprised by the number of posts defending the enterpreneureal (sp?)

spirit, and even out-and-out commercialism, since most members of this group

are probably "liberals", and inclined to view capitalism w/ some skepticism.

(Anarchist that I am, I would draw a distinction, incidentally, between

market capitalism and corporate capitalism, but all that is for some other

mail-group.) I'm also surprised at how well-versed members of this group are

regarding contemporary Hollywood and television personalities, but maybe that

is because I don't even own a TV!

For what it's worth, I don't think it's possible to defend an argument that

the Beats of the 50s were anti-capitalist or even anti-consumerist. They were

Americans, after all, and part of what is/was exciting about the Beats is how

they sought to find and touch the hidden heart of this great, garish,

ranting, brawling country, this place we call America which is not so much a

place, after all, as it is a state of mind. As far as the Volvo commercials,

the Nike commercials, the Mercedes commercials, et al., I must concur w/

those who have said: Loosen up, folks. If that Volvo commercials sends some

kid to the library to seek out OTR, than it is, perhaps, a good thing, and if

that kid reads OTR, and sets out to emulate its author in even some small

way, that is all the better, and we will all be better people as a result.

It's all one big, long, lonely, crazy, wild, spooky, shadowy, bright, noisy

road-trip anyway, only usually we call it life for lack of any better name to

give it. I think the point is to enjoy the ride.

And, what I really want to know is - If Jack Kerouac were alive and writing

today, would he use a Macintosh or an IBM-PC?

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 22:08:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: dream film

>I know this is sort of an old post, and I'll probably be flamed for

>this, but I'm not sure if Sinise would be a good Ginsberg. Granted, with

>makeup, he looks a lot like Truman in the HBO film, but he seems more

>all American, like JK, than Ginsberg. However, he is an actor......

I thought the geeky looking guy from Lunch did a pretty good job as

Ginsberg.. personally that is..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 22:14:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: America

> dan terkla......if you want to teach your students about

>america.......please.....first.....teach them america is not usa only.....i

>don't know if even beats learned this......

>you have stolen a name: america.....

Thanks so much for posting this! I have been working on a shitty

version of America '95 now for almost a year and haven't been

able to save the long, prose-esque script from what seems to be

a weak attempt at redefining the original in modern terms. I think

this will help me out to some extent..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 07:12:38 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: JK

In your message dated Thursday 19, October 1995 you wrote :

> >a greek philosopher who lived more than two thousand years ago

> >believed that philosophy had it's origin in man's sense of wonder.

> >man thought it was so astonishing to be alive that phiosophical

> >questions arose of their own accord.

Yes yes yes, Joe. This is Kerouac for me. Especially his sense of wonder at

other people, people who conventional society wouldn't give the time of day to.

I think I should read about Sophie's World. It looks interesting.

PS Jostein Gaarder is female.

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 00:31:56 +0200

Reply-To: jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joseph Rodrigue <jrodrigue@VNET.IBM.COM>

Subject: Re: Coppola/Cassady

In-Reply-To: <951019230645_128316139@mail02.mail.aol.com> (DustyJ437@AOL.COM)

From: "Karen L Becker" <DustyJ437@AOL.COM>

> I think I too would have fallen victim to NC's over-stated charm...

> Later

> DustyJade

I'm not sure how accurate an impression any of us can have without having met

the guy ...

I saw a film of NC once (I was at the same event in SF as another list member,

I forget his name -- Ken Babbs spoke, it was around 1982) ... the thing that

struck me was how _strong_ this guy was ... he was flipping this sledgehammer

.... a lot of physical energy. I can believe he was a ladies' man (tho you'd

better ask a lady about that) ... Terrific physique ... not sure of the year,

probably he was pushing forty when the film was made. But very good-looking.

To tell you the truth, I think it will be very difficult to cast this part ...

nobody could come up to the original ...

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 17:59:21 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Scott <scottp@MOONDOG.USASK.CA>

Subject: Junk's Christmas

In-Reply-To: <950911212418_16699420@emout05.mail.aol.com>

Coming to Bravo! TV (Canada) this Thursday night at 6:30. Features the

voice of William Burroughs. More details later.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:01:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Marty Kinczel <MAK62@AOL.COM>

Subject: Fwd: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses S

please pass along this important manure to the world

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj: Fwd: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses S

Date: 95-10-23 14:44:07 EDT

From: MKinczel

To: ash@icg.apc.org,SPH16,MAK62

some light reading

---------------------

Forwarded message:

From: wilson@readmore.com (Jenni Wilson)

To: mkinczel%aol.com@readmore.com

Date: 95-10-19 18:49:59 EDT

Subject: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses Shoot Themselves Down (fwd)

Forwarded to:

smtp[acameron@vax.clarku.edu],smtp[102704.2332@compuserve.com],smtp[edgarc

ia@usp.br],smtp[lwilson@peace.moldova.su],smtp[ahuber@husc.harvard.edu],sm

tp[hamilton@forwild.umass.edu],smtp[coxc@agreng.lan.mcgill.ca]

cc:

Comments by: Cindy Robinson@Stud@CEM

Comments:

A amazing, and sad tale. Food for thought (definately NOT to eat) . .

-------------------------- [Original Message]

-------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 03:07:48 -0400

From: Moonchild <coniberr@cs.man.ac.uk>

To: vrc@tiac.net

Subject: McLibel: McDonalds' Witnesses Shoot Themselves Down

McLibel Support Campaign

5 Caledonian Road

London N1 9DX UK

Tel/Fax +44-171-713 1269

A Year of Great McQuotes from the Witness Box

McDonald's witnesses have often said ridiculous things in the

witness box in a vain attempt to conceal the truth or justify the

way McDonald's operates and the effect those operations have in

this country and around the world. Here is just a small

selection:

NUTRITION AND ILL-HEALTH

The Defendants asked Dr Sydney Arnott (McDonald's expert on

cancer) his opinion of the following statement: "A diet high in

fat, sugar, animal products and salt and low in fibre, vitamins

and minerals is linked with cancer of the breast and bowel and

heart disease". He replied: "If it is being directed to the

public then I would say it is a very reasonable thing to say."

The court was then informed that the statement was an extract from

the London Greenpeace Factsheet. This section had been

characterised by McDonald's lawyer at pre-trial hearings as the

central and most "defamatory" allegation, which if proven would be

the "kiss of death" for a fast-food company like McDonald's. On

the strength of the supposed scientific complexities surrounding

this issue the Defendants had been denied their right to a jury.

David Green, Senior Vice-President of Marketing (USA), stated

'McDonald's food is nutritious' and 'healthy'. When asked what

the company meant by 'nutritious' he said: 'provides nutrients and

can be a part of a healthy balanced diet'. He admitted this could

also apply to a packet of sweets [candy]. When asked if Coca Cola

is 'nutritious' he replied that it is 'providing water, and I

think that is part of a balanced diet'. He agreed that by his

definition Coke is nutritious.

When asked to define 'junk food', Professor Wheelock (McDonald's

consultant on nutrition) said it was 'whatever a person doesn't

like' (in his case semolina). With disbelief mounting in the

courtroom, Richard Rampton (McDonald's QC) intervened to say that

McDonald's was not objecting to the description of their food as

'junk food'!

Peter Cox, (a Defence marketing expert) quoted from 'Behind the

Arches', a book authorised by McDonald's in 1987, as evidence that

McDonald's were engaged in 'a strategy of subversion' by trying to

alter the dietary preferences of whole nations, 'very often for

the worse'. The book states that, in Japan, McDonald's faced "a

fundamental challenge of establishing beef as a common food".

Their President, Den Fujita, said "the reason Japanese people are

so short and have yellow skins is because they have eaten nothing

but fish and rice for two thousand years"; "if we eat McDonald's

hamburgers and potatoes for a thousand years we will become

taller, our skin become white and our hair blonde".

McDonald's began a major advertising campaign in the USA in 1987

which aimed "to neutralise the junk food misconceptions about

McDonald's good food". An internal company memo, reporting on a

high level meeting in March 1986 with public relations advisors

prior to the advertising campaign, was read out in court. It

states "McDonald's should attempt to deflect the basic negative

thrust of our critics.....How do we do this? By talking

'moderation and balance'. We can't really address or defend

nutrition. We don't sell nutrition and people don't come to

McDonald's for nutrition".

The Effects of Advertising

Incredibly, Paul Preston (McDonald's UK President) claimed that

the character Ronald McDonald is intended not to "sell food" to

children, but to promote the "McDonald's experience". But an

extract from the corporation's official and confidential

'Operations Manual' was read out: "Ronald loves McDonald's and

McDonald's food. And so do children, because they love Ronald.

Remember, children exert a phenomenal influence when it comes to

restaurant selection. This means you should do everything you can

to appeal to children's love for Ronald and McDonald's."

McDonald's annual advertising and promotions budget is $1.4

billion. It was revealed in court that Geoffrey Guiliano, a

Ronald McDonald actor in the 1980's, had quit and publicly

apologised, stating "I brainwashed youngsters into doing wrong. I

want to say sorry to children everywhere for selling out to

concerns who make millions by murdering animals".

The Effects of Packaging on the Environment

McDonald's distributed 'McFact' cards nationwide for several years

publicising a scheme to recycle polystyrene waste from stores in

Nottingham, where customers were asked to put polystyrene

packaging into a separate bin, "for recycling into such things as

plant pots and coat hangers". Ed Oakley (Chief Purchasing Officer

for McDonald's UK) admitted that the company had not recycled any

of the waste and in fact the polystyrene was "dumped".

Paul Preston, McDonald's UK President, said that if one million

customers each bought a soft drink, he would not expect more than

150 cups to end up as litter. Photographs were then put to him,

showing 27 pieces of McDonald's litter in one stretch of pavement

alone (the company has over 600 stores in the UK and serves over a

million customers each day).

In some countries the company has abandoned or limited the use of

polystyrene packaging, in part because it is not biodegradable and

takes up a lot of space in landfill sites. Ed Oakley (McDonald's

UK) stated that there is "no landfill problem in the UK".

Questioned as to whether he believes that "as long as there is

room in the dumps, there is no problem with dumping lots of

McDonald's waste in the ground?" Mr Oakley said "and everybody

else's waste, yes, that is true". He said "I can see [the dumping

of waste] to be a benefit, otherwise you will end up with lots of

vast, empty gravel pits all over the country." Asked if he was

"asserting it is an environmental benefit to dump waste in

landfill sites" he stated "It could be"...."yes, it is certainly

not a problem".

Destruction of Rainforests

Internal company documents, mistakenly disclosed to the

Defendants, were read to the court in which McDonald's admitted

the purchase in the UK in 1983/4 of beef imported from Brazil, a

rainforest country. A letter from the McDonald's Corporation to a

member of the public in the UK in 1982 stated "we can assure you

that the only Brazilian beef used by McDonald's is that purchased

by the six stores located in Brazil itself". Ed Oakley (Chief

Purchasing Officer for McDonald's UK) denied that the purchase of

Brazilian beef for use in the UK was in breach of McDonald's

policy of not using beef which originated outside the European

Union, saying "No, it was not. We still bought the hamburgers

locally. We did not buy the ingredients locally".

David Walker (the Chairman of McKey Foods, the sole supplier of

McDonald's UK hamburgers) admitted that he had personally

organised the direct import of the consignments of Brazilian beef

for McDonald's UK stores in 1983/4. A letter from Mr Walker at

the time was quoted in court. It revealed that the imports were a

matter of great controversy. The letter stated that Prince

Philip, the President of the World Wildlife Fund, had recently met

George Cohon, President of McDonald's Canada, and had said: " 'So

you are the people who are tearing down the Brazilian rainforests

and breeding cattle' to which the reply was: 'I think you are

mistaken', whereupon HRH said 'Rubbish' and stormed away".

Following this, the letter stated that Fred Turner, the Chairman

of the McDonald's Corporation, "issued a worldwide edict that no

McDonald's plant was to use Brazilian beef". The same letter

revealed that McDonald's UK had given Walker permission to use the

Brazilian beef imports.

McDonald's claim that they do not use beef from cattle reared on

recently deforested land. However, in his statement (which has

been read out during the Trial, Ray Cesca (Director of Global

Purchasing of the McDonald's Corporation) admits that when they

opened stores in Costa Rica in 1970, they were using beef from

cattle raised on ex-rainforest land, deforested in the 1950's and

1960's. In other words, some of it had been cleared less than 10

years earlier. McDonald's own definition of 'recently deforested'

is unclear and seems to fluctuate between 10 and 25 years or "from

the time that we arrive...in a country" (Gomez Gonzales,

International Meat Purchasing Manager of the McDonald's

Corporation).

McDonald's claim that they only use US-produced beef in the USA.

However, during the Trial an extract from the TV documentary

'Jungleburger' was shown, in which McDonald's beef suppliers in

Costa Rica stated that they also supplied beef for use by

McDonald's in the USA.

Employees and Trade Unions

Robert Beavers (Senior Vice-President of the US Corporation)

agreed that in the early 70's, when trade unions were trying to

organise in McDonald's in the US, the company set up a "flying

squad" of experienced managers who were despatched to a store the

same day that word came in of an attempt by workers to unionise

it. Unions made no headway.

Sid Nicholson, McDonald's UK Vice President, admitted that

McDonald's set their starting rates for crew employees for most of

the country "consistently either exactly the same as the minimum

rates of pay set by the Wages Council or just a few pence over

them". He agreed that for crew aged 21 or over the company

"couldn't actually pay any lower wages without falling foul of the

law". However, he said "I do not accept that McDonald's crew are

low paid".

Mr Nicholson said the company was not anti-union and all staff had

a right to join one. Under questioning he admitted that any

McDonald's workers interested in union membership "would not be

allowed to collect subscriptions...put up notices...pass out any

leaflets...to organise a meeting for staff to discuss conditions

at the store on the premises...or to inform the union about

conditions inside the stores" (which would be deemed 'Gross

Misconduct' and as such a 'summary sackable offence'). In fact,

Mr Nicholson agreed, "they would not be allowed to carry out any

overt union activity on McDonald's premises".

Jill Barnes, McDonald's UK Hygiene and Safety Officer, was

challenged over a previously confidential internal report into the

death by electrocution of Mark Hopkins in a Manchester store on

October 12th 1992. It had catalogued a number of company failures

and problems, and had made the damning conclusion: "Safety is not

seen as being important at store level". In addition, a Health &

Safety Executive report of 1992 concluded: "the application of

McDonald's hustle policy [ie. getting staff to work at speed] in

many restaurants was, in effect, putting the service of the

customer before the safety of employees".

Animal Welfare

Dr Neville Gregory (McDonald's expert witness) said McDonald's egg

suppliers keep chickens in battery cages, 5 chickens to a cage

with less than the size of an A4 sheet of paper per bird and with

no freedom of movement and no access to fresh air or sunshine. Ed

Oakley of McDonald's said the company had thought about switching

to free range eggs, but, not only are battery eggs "50% cheaper",

but, he claimed "hens kept in batteries are better cared for". He

said he thinks battery cages are "pretty comfortable"!

Ed Oakley (Chief Purchasing Officer for McDonald's UK) claimed

that the company "had a very real feeling that animals should be

kept and slaughtered in the most humane way possible" and so had

published an animal welfare statement two years ago. When

questioned about this so-called policy Mr Oakley admitted that the

"animal welfare policy is, in fact, just a policy to comply with

the laws of the various countries in which McDonald's operate",

and added "we do not go beyond what the law stipulates".

Food Safety

A UK 'McFact' card states: "every consignment of beef arriving at

the [McKeys] meat plant is subject to a total of 36 quality

control checks, carried out by a team of qualified technologists.

If a consignment should fail on any one check, it will be rejected

by McDonald's." All the raw beef consignments are

microbiologically tested, and categorised as 'satisfactory',

'passable', and 'unsatisfactory'. David Walker (Chairman of

McKeys, the sole supplier of the company's UK hamburgers) stated

that 'unsatisfactory' relates to beef which has a total colony of

more than 10 million bacteria per gram. He then admitted that

such consignments are, in fact, not rejected and are used for

McDonald's burgers.

McDonald's have refused to call their own expert witness on food

poisoning, Colin Clarke, who prepared a detailed report following

a visit he made to three company stores. The court heard that,

regarding the cooking of hamburgers (which he had tested), Mr

Clark in his statement "recommends that 73 deg C be the internal

minimum temperature of the final product, and that their

temperatures were not reaching that in all cases. The minimum

was, in fact, 70 deg C."

Please distribute this information far and wide.

To subscribe to the "mclibel" listserve, send email

To: majordomo@world.std.com

Subject: <not needed>

Body: subscribe mclibel

Traffic on the list is low, being primarily a news service. Please

limit submissions to news-type items about McDonalds and corporate

influence on the law.

Further information and previous updates are available on Nick

Fiddes' World Wide Web site at:-

http://anthfirst.san.ed.ac.uk/

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 17:04:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Kerouac's Computer

He would obviously have used a portable Notebook, as he was scribbling notes

constantly, then probably sending them via modem from cybercafes back to

Mamere's house to work up into the latest offering on the Duluoz WWW Home

Page. No waiting for dopey publishers to get around to offering for his

books, and no damn pesky editors either. A perfect place for his writings, I

think. And can you imagine what his E-Mials would have been like. If you

want a look at what it all might have been like, I'd suggest the ALT-X web site.

Nick W-W

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 23:38:38 GMT

Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's Computer

In your message dated Monday 23, October 1995 you wrote :

> And can you imagine what his E-Mials would have been like. If you

> want a look at what it all might have been like, I'd suggest the ALT-X web

site.

Which is what, where?

Simon Okotie

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel: +181 830 3604

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:24:42 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Mary Maguire--address

Mary, my reply to your last message re Beats--NYC bounced back as undeliberable

to your e-mail address. Please let me know whether or not you received that re

ply. You seem to be getting Beat-l mail at that address. Don't understand wha