=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:56:09 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: BBurg59024@AOL.COM
Subject: Subscribe Beat-LBrio B.user.
would
like to subscribe to Beat-L...and advertize New Book
with
original Lawrence Ferlinghetti drawing on the cover...
Book
called STREET KIDS AND OTHER PLAYS, author Brio Burgess, can be ordered
from
the distributor in San Bernardino,
Borgo
Press, or from City Lights Books at 261 Columbus Ave.
San
Francisco, Calif. 94133...just ask for it by name, it's in
the
consignment section...of the store...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:33:09 -0800
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From: Tsaelinah
<serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd)
In-Reply-To:
<951130.231328.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:
>
Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.
>
This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.
But
jack was not as into the whole scene as the other two..as i recall,
he had
quite a hang up about sex, homo or otherwise...
>
>
Neal also slept with them.
'sright.
>
Tsaelinah
(in a jar)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:37:15 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: Tsaelinah
<serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex
In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>
>
>
The only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I
First
off, go read Dharma Bums. Now. Go. Yes, you. =)
>
believe that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore
>
Jesus impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so
maybe
>
Oedipus did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?
>
Please tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.
woooaaaahhhh...
man, i
never saw that...i don't know if it's a legitimate interpretation,
but it
is pretty interesting...
i think
i'm gonna go read that oedipus rex that's been sitting in me
bookshelf
for some time....
hehehe....coool...
Tsaelinah
(in a jar)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:42:33 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: Tsaelinah
<serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject: the oedipus thang
well
now...
looking
in me handy-dandy book o'greek myths, i see that YES indeedy,
Eric,
Laius, Oedipus' father, pierced his feet with a nail at his
birth...he
bound them together and then left him on Mt Cithaeron so he
wouldn't
grow up to kill Laius off...
Tsaelinah
(in a jar)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:44:00 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: About Ginsberg
Clarification
here: I know that Ginseberg's gay and had sex with several of
our
Beat fellows. My question, which a few of your answered with clarity, had
to do with
whether or not he was having and promoting the idea of having sex
with
children. Someone pointed out that by 50's standards he was "sexually
deviant"
simply by practicing homosexuality, and so why wouldn't he be
deviant
by today's standards? Are we really
putting having sex with boys and
having
sex with male adults on the same level of "deviance" (And just so
there's
no confusion, let me clarify that I DON'T consider homosexuality
deviant).
Does anyone else think sleeping with children isn't a behavior we
necessarily
want in our heroes?
- Liz
"...who
journeyed to Denver, who died in Denver, who came back to Denver &
waited
in vain, who watched over Denver & brooded & loned in Denver and
finally
went away to find out the Time, & now Denver is lonesome for her
heroes...."
(from "Howl")
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:11:59 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Chris Bryan
<Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: phoning Naomi
In-Reply-To:
<951130.230947.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
and
after you post the number, let's all agree on a designated time to flood his
line
with prank calls....
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995 23:08:14 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat
Generation
List) wrote:
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>From: "Mr. Congeniality"
<SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg
>To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM>
>
>I
already responded and put in my two cents on this topic, but let me add this:
>He
is the one that leaves his number and address listed, he must not mind. Now
>for
those of us who do not live in the area, but would still be interested in
>the
public access information, please post it.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Since
it is public access information, why don't you look it up.
>Every
library in US probably has a Manhatten phone book.
>
> Love Always,
>` Eric Simpkins
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:13:35 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Chris Bryan
<Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: beatnik meets bohemian
In-Reply-To:
<951130.231920.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
I like
to shop at The Gap too....
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995 23:14:05 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat
Generation
List) wrote:
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>From: "Darius A. Yasiejko"
<Derangel@AOL.COM>
>
>this
thought just occured to me... not that i am beating this to death, but
>did
anyone ever think that maybe the reason behind gen-x being lazy and
>sluggish...
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Lazy
Gen Xers is the same stereotyping that led to the creation of the
>dirty,
dope fiend Beatnik image that pervades the notion of the Beat
>Generation. Unfortunately many peopl e out there and on
this listseem
>to
forget that they were all artists and contributed a great deal to
>blossoming
American position in the post-WWII art world.
There was
>alot
more to them than the Beatnik, just liike the artists of Gen X
>are
much more than Kurt Cobain and other media created representatives.
>I
don't know what any other under 35's out ht there think, but I
>find
it horrible that Bret Easton Ellis and others are called the
>writers
of "our" generation.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:14:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Mr. Congeniality"
<SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: About Ginsberg
It was
I who put homosexuality on the same level as pedophilia. I know, they
are not
even close but homosexuality in the fifties is similar to pedophilia
in th
nineties. Also, sure, I don't want a hero who sleeps with little boys,
but i
still admire the beat poets works and philosophies regarding life/
politics.
Love Always,
Eric Simpkins
p.s. So
the only deciding factor to whether i was right regarding the Oedipus
thing
was whether JK's father's name was Leo. Was it?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:19:25 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot massages
In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>
interesting
theory, albeit maybe too pseudo-intellectual to take seriously, but
let's
analyze, shall we:
maybe
Achilles, whose only vulnerability was his mortal heel (or, "pierced
foot"),
was the impetus for Kerouac's Leo character...Achilles had a goddess for
a mom
(not just sexually) and her name was Thetis and she copulated with a
mortal
and they decided that Achilles would be the hero/messiah of the Greeks
and so
on and so on...well, hell, my theory deconstructs rather easily too...but
consider
this: perhaps Achilles is the Christ figure of BC Greece -- he mom is a
deity
(much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism) and he is martyred...
I don't
buy your theory but I enjoy exchanging bullshit with you...
Cordially,
CHRIS
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat
Generation
List) wrote:
>The
only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I
>heard
that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's name,
>Leo,
and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any time
>Oedipus
pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on
>the
cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)
>believe
that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore
>Jesus
impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so maybe
>Oedipus
did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?
>Please
tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.
>
> Love Always,
> Eric Simpkins
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:50:25 GMT
Reply-To: JLynch@ldta.demon.co.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: John Lynch
<JLynch@LDTA.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: CHANCE???
In
message <C0DCBD3001C93A7C@-SMF->
BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes:
>
> No
Tabula Rasa is not engraved in stone but it is a very valid theory.
>
Molly
I'm not
trying to pick a fight, but I would like to know what you mean here.
To say that something is "a very valid
theory" seems to me to be the same as
saying
it is true. Is this what you mean? I have some difficulty in seeing
this
idea as more than a hypothesis on whose behalf quite a lot of evidence
can be
adduced -- would you be prepared to accept that as an assessment of
the
idea of the new born baby as a blank sheet on which anything can be
written?
I
probably take this line because I don't accept the idea. You are into the
whole
nature/nurture debate, and it seems to me that what work has been done
on this
(and it is a lot) indicates what common sense would have suggested
anyway
-- that a great deal of what we become is induced by our own
experience
of the world around us (which is not the same as the way the
world
around us actually *is*), but some of it is just there -- we are born
with
(or without it)
--
John
Lynch
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:43:41 +1100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: David R <uagyb@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Where?
Hi
there,
Many
years ago, I read a passage in "Visions of Cody" which moved me
greatly. If I recall correctly, it was before Jack
catches up with Neal
(call
them what you will), and he is just describing the kind of man his
friend
is. About how he can do this, and that,
and looks a certain way, and
how he
can get away with things, just generally what a great guy
Neal/Cody/Dean
is, and how Jack can't wait to catch up with him. It shows
the
depth of admiration and love that Jack held for Neal and when I read it
I was
overcome by my own understanding of this.
It may
be some time until I get the chance to read it again, and I can't
find it
when I flick through. So I wondered if
any of you can direct me to
the
whereabouts of this passage. If not, it
won't be so bad if I read it
over
Christmas, will it?
If any
of you haven't read it, do yourselves a favour...
David
PS:
Pardon the vague nature of this, but it was a while ago.
"Another fine
product from Happy Acres"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 07:37:51 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: Dan Terkla
<terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex
In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>
Laius,
Oedipus' father, pierced him through the ankles, tied his feet
together
and left him to die. It seems to me
that "Percepied" and
Oedipus'
tale--not to mention complex--are key to reading _The
Subterraneans_
and to understanding Kerouac's Oedipal problems.
Dan
Terkla
Illinois
Wesleyan Univ.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:12:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: sjcahn
<c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex
In-Reply-To: <01HY9MXB38IAHTTLWM@SONOMA.EDU>
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995, Mr. Congeniality wrote:
>
The only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I
>
heard that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's
name,
>
Leo, and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any
time
>
Oedipus pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on
>
the cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)
>
believe that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore
>
Jesus impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so
maybe
>
Oedipus did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?
>
Please tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.
>
> Love Always,
> Eric Simpkins
>
Kinda. Oedipus' father has his foot pierced when he
had him (oed) hung
in the
woods to get rid of him (Oed was prophecized to "kill hjis father
and
marry his mother," of course-- thus the Oedipal complex.) Pierced,
swollen,
etc.-- whatever word you want to translate-- and you get our
Greek
hero's name.
Yrs.
&c.
S.J.
Cahn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:17:55 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: CLAY VAUGHAN
<CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exist. & American Beats
Comments:
To: "Dan E." <D1ervin@AOL.COM>
>
Dan E wrote:
> To
say that the Beat movement (literarily speaking) was not moving in the
>
opposite direction of American Existentialism is ridiculous. The Beats
>
finally saw the need (as did Whitman) for a celebration of self (as opposed
> to
us all being Invisble Men, etc.).
Existentialism took American lit.
>
(primarily fiction) dangerously close to an edge which, if pushed over, may
>
have never been able to come back from.
The Beats- not necessarily in a
>
concious effort to defend against the Existentialists- and the postmodernist
>
since then (everyone from the periphery of society: from Momaday to Silko,
>
etc.) have made a move in the very opposite direction. Existentialism, if we
>
can approximate its center, rested mainly in mainstream culture (white,
>
middlie class). The Beats began the
motion of an outward spiral so that art
>
began to prosper in the outer edges of society. Want proof? Who's hot?
> Native American writers, feminist writers,
African American writers, Latino
>
writers? Look on the Discovery
channel. Four nights out of five there
is a
>
show on Indian heritage. Need I say
more. Before you give up on the
>
argument, think it through.
I want
to bring up a couple of issues related to the idea that Beat
writers/Beat
writing was moving in a direction OPPOSITE that of
"American
Existentialists". Maybe it's the
idea of "American"
existentialism
that's got me hung up... are there characteristics
particular
to the American character that it integrated into European
existentialist
thinking, some sort of mutation, making an American
Existentialism
to begin with? I'm not entirely convinced from your
argument
that such a being exists.
Existentialism
was/is not a movement, philosophically or otherwise.
It was
a perception of existence than ran counter to the Hegelian
concept
of formalized philosophy. It was reaction against traditional
canons
of western philosophical thinking. A reaction. That's why you
get those
like Sartre who, for all that we've read of his work,
literarily
or formally, claimed he was not an existentialist,
because
to adopt that mantle would be to become part of the very
tradition
"existentialist" thinking sought to bring a new perspective
to.
French intellectual expression is, I think by definition, much
more
formal in its presentation anyway, so if there is a way out of
that
apparent contradiction, at least for Sartre, there it is.
Now to
the idea that the Beat phenomenon, or whatever, was something
that
ran COUNTER to existential thought:
Norman
Mailer, in his 1959 essay THE WHITE NEGRO, addresses this
issue
so succinctly (succinctly for Mailer anywway) that I would just
say,
read that, and read it closely. He seemed to have his pulse on
the
nature of the fifties counter-culture without the accompanying
baggage
that might come along with actually being an "accomplice" to
the
Beat "conspiracy".
Now he
does recognize an "American Existentialist", but contrary to
thoughts
that the Beats, literarily or otherwise, ran counter to
this,
Mailer says that the "White Negro", the Beat character, IS the
American
Existentialist:
"It
is on this bleak scene that a phenomenon has appeared: the
American
existentialist--the hipster, the man who knows that if our
collective
condition is to live with instant death by atomic war,
relatively
quick death by the State as l'univers concentrationaire,
or with
a slow death by conformity with every creative and rebellious
instinct
stifled (at what damage to the mind and the heart and the
liver
and the nerves no research foundation for cancer will discover
in a
hurry), if the fate of twentieth century man is to live with
death
from adolescence to premature senescence, why then the only
life-giving
answer is to accept the terms of death, to live with
death
as immediate danger, to divorce oneself from society, to exist
without
roots, to set out on that uncharted journey into the
rebellious
imperatives of the self...."
"To
be an existentialist, one must be able to free oneself--one must
know
one's desires, one's rages, one's anguish, one must be aware of
the
character of one's frustration and know what would satisfy it.
The
overcivilized man can be an existentialist only if it is chic,
and
deserts it quickly for the next chic. To be a real existentialist
(Sartre
admittedly to the contrary) one must be religious, one must
have
one's sense of the 'purpose'--whatever the purpose may be--but a
life
which is directed by one's faith in the necessity of action is a
life
committed to the notion that the substratum of existence is the
search,
the end meaningful but mysterious; it is impossible to live
such a
life unless one's emotion provide their profound
conviction...."
Well
you get the gist of what's happening here. Mailer's statement is
alive
with all those buzzwords associated both with an existential
profile,
as well as that associated with the mindset of the Beat as
wanderer,
seeker of truth, even religious figure (the "beatitude" of
Kerouac's
association with the word "Beat").
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:17:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: sjcahn
<c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot
massages
In-Reply-To:
<MailDrop1.1.951201011925@st-dorms-dyn-13.baylor.edu>
On Fri,
1 Dec 1995, Chris Bryan wrote:
>
let's analyze, shall we:
>
>
maybe Achilles, whose only vulnerability was his mortal heel (or, "pierced
>
foot"), was the impetus for Kerouac's Leo character...Achilles had a
goddess
for
> a
mom (not just sexually) and her name was Thetis and she copulated with a
>
mortal and they decided that Achilles would be the hero/messiah of the Greeks
>
and so on and so on...well, hell, my theory deconstructs rather easily
too...but
>
consider this: perhaps Achilles is the Christ figure of BC Greece -- he mom is
a
>
deity (much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism) and he is martyred...
>
> I
don't buy your theory but I enjoy exchanging bullshit with you...
>
>
Cordially,
>
CHRIS
>
I think
it is Dionysis, God of Wine, etc. who most closely resembles
Christ--
his body being eaten, and all, by his followers... (also Osiris
in
Egypt).
Yrs.
&c.
Steven
Cahn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:59:31 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot massages
(fwd)
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
his mom
is a
deity
(much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is
totally irrelevant to where this (and the preceeding message) meant
to go,
but the Virgin Mary is not a diety in the Catholic tradition and not
all
Protestant Christian sects believe that Jesus and God are one and the
same. Just being a nit-picking theologist.
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat
Generation
List) wrote:
>The
only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I
>heard
that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's name,
>Leo,
and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any time
>Oedipus
pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on
>the
cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)
>believe
that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore
>Jesus
impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so maybe
>Oedipus
did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?
>Please
tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.
>
> Love Always,
> Eric Simpkins
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:02:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Eckert, Molly K"
<MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>
Subject: Re: beatnik meets bohemian
In-Reply-To: <AF17BF3001C93A7C@-SMF->
Allen
Ginsberg wore khakis
Molly
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:02:54 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd) (fwd)
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
From: Tsaelinah
<serajani@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:
>
Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.
>
This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.
But
jack was not as into the whole scene as the other two..as i recall,
he had
quite a hang up about sex, homo or otherwise...
'sright.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
'sright
- you got me on that one.
PM
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:14:29 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Eckert, Molly K"
<MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>
Subject: Re: who the hell is Tom Selleck?
In-Reply-To: <A317BF3001C93A7C@-SMF->
Yes it
is he was also Magnum PI
Molly
MKEckert@cedarcrest.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:20:04 -0600
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From: DAVIS ALAN <davisa@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exist. & American Beats
In-Reply-To: <25920605F68@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>
On Fri,
1 Dec 1995, CLAY VAUGHAN wrote:
>
> Existentialism, if we
>
> can approximate its center, rested mainly in mainstream culture (white,
>
> middlie class). The Beats began
the motion of an outward spiral so that art
>
> began to prosper in the outer edges of society. Want proof? Who's hot?
Richard
Wright was white and middle class? Not.
Existence
precedes essence? Hardly mainstream.
>
>
Norman Mailer, in his 1959 essay THE WHITE NEGRO, addresses this
>
issue so succinctly (succinctly for Mailer anywway) that I would just
>
say, read that, and read it closely. He seemed to have his pulse on
>
the nature of the fifties counter-culture without the accompanying
>
baggage that might come along with actually being an "accomplice" to
>
the Beat "conspiracy".
>
>
Now he does recognize an "American Existentialist", but contrary to
>
thoughts that the Beats, literarily or otherwise, ran counter to
>
this, Mailer says that the "White Negro", the Beat character, IS the
>
American Existentialist:
>
>
"It is on this bleak scene that a phenomenon has appeared: the
>
American existentialist--the hipster, the man who knows that if our
>
collective condition is to live with instant death by atomic war,
>
relatively quick death by the State as l'univers concentrationaire,
> or
with a slow death by conformity with every creative and rebellious
>
instinct stifled (at what damage to the mind and the heart and the
>
liver and the nerves no research foundation for cancer will discover
> in
a hurry), if the fate of twentieth century man is to live with
>
death from adolescence to premature senescence, why then the only
>
life-giving answer is to accept the terms of death, to live with
>
death as immediate danger, to divorce oneself from society, to exist
>
without roots, to set out on that uncharted journey into the
>
rebellious imperatives of the self...."
>
>
"To be an existentialist, one must be able to free oneself--one must
>
know one's desires, one's rages, one's anguish, one must be aware of
>
the character of one's frustration and know what would satisfy it.
>
The overcivilized man can be an existentialist only if it is chic,
>
and deserts it quickly for the next chic. To be a real existentialist
>
(Sartre admittedly to the contrary) one must be religious, one must
>
have one's sense of the 'purpose'--whatever the purpose may be--but a
>
life which is directed by one's faith in the necessity of action is a
>
life committed to the notion that the substratum of existence is the
>
search, the end meaningful but mysterious; it is impossible to live
>
such a life unless one's emotion provide their profound
>
conviction...."
>
Yes,
Norman, as usual, is, beneath his bluster, right, exactly right.
Cheers.
The
Moorhead Existentialist
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:21:51 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Chris D."
<CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Beats and Existensialism
In
reply to Dan E.'s message on the 29th re:Existensialism:
I think
this is an interesting idea, but I fail to see why you lint the
existensialist
movement with spiritual destruction. I am moderately well
read in
existensialist literature and theory, and this is a conection that
I
cannot make. I know that a popular conception of existensialism would
claim
that the movement is little more than a wailing for a lost God, lost
life,
lost dreams...But if one were to really read closely into existensialism,
they
may find a more spiritually affirming message: It is precisely within
the
struggle for meaning and truth that we descover our own belief systems.
I don't
think the Beats and Existensials (is this a word?) are as diametrically
opposed
as you may imply. Thoughts?
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:45:22 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd)
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:10:14 EST
from
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995 23:10:14 EST Peter McGahey said:
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>From: "Darius A. Yasiejko"
<Derangel@AOL.COM>
>Subject: Re: About Ginsberg
>
> i wouldn't doubt if ginsberg and burroughs had a sexual
>relationship
at one point....
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Allen,
Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.
>This
is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.
>
>Neal
also slept with them.
I don't
think that I'd label Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady homosexual
just
because they had some homosexual experiences.
Allen Ginsberg has
had
some heterosexual experiences too. That
doesn't make him straight.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:50:05 EST
Reply-To: text@CUNYVM.BITNET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700
from
<SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995 20:40:51 -0700 Mr. Congeniality said:
>The
only book by JK I have read and studie by JK is The Subterranians. I
>heard
that Jack's name in the book, Leo Percepied, came from his father's name,
>Leo,
and Percepoed which means "pierced foot" I can not remember any time
>Oedipus
pierced his foot, but let's look at Jesus. Jesus pierced his foot on
>the
cross and had an Oedipul Complex himself. Christians (of which JK was)
>believe
that Jesus was God. They believe that God impregnated Mary, therefore
>Jesus
impregnated Mary, his own mother. I read Oedipus four years ago, so maybe
>Oedipus
did pierce his foot, I don't know. Does this idea hold any water?
>Please
tell me if i am wrong, but I find this very interesting.
>
> Love Always,
> Eric Simpkins
Oedipus
means "swollen foot." His
foot is injured shortly after birth.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:55:08 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Re: About Ginsberg (fwd) (fwd)
Okay
Bill, we're arguing semantics here, but I like that. I'll rephrase
it as
bi-sexual or as straight with homosexual experiences. My point here
was
that the original author was correct - they all had those experiences.
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
On Thu,
30 Nov 1995 23:10:14 EST Peter McGahey said:
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
>
> i wouldn't doubt if ginsberg and burroughs had a sexual
>relationship
at one point....
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Allen,
Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.
>This
is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.
>
>Neal
also slept with them.
I don't
think that I'd label Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady homosexual
just
because they had some homosexual experiences.
Allen Ginsberg has
had
some heterosexual experiences too. That
doesn't make him straight.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:56:50 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Chris D."
<CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Beats and homosexuality
Why (as
a culture) do we feel a need to label sexuality in term of diametric
opposition?
Peter's last posting is an example of an attempt to impose a
rigid
definition on a fluid and nebulous aspect of human life (ie sexuality)
I think
that if we want to examine the sexual lives of the Beat writers, the
most
telling conclusion at which we can arive would be that it demonstrates
that,
like their writing, sexuality has become a metaphor outside the
interpretive
realm of mainstream culture. By attempting to define their
sexuality
with terms like "homosexual" or "straight" we are creating
a
totalizing
discourse of institutional oppression.
Just a
thought,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:20:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: existentialism
Thanks,
Clay, for those lucid comments on American existentialism.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:36:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and homosexuality
>Why
(as a culture) do we feel a need to label sexuality in term of diametric
>opposition?
Peter's last posting is an example of an attempt to impose a
>rigid
definition on a fluid and nebulous aspect of human life (ie sexuality)
>I
think that if we want to examine the sexual lives of the Beat writers, the
>most
telling conclusion at which we can arive would be that it demonstrates
>that,
like their writing, sexuality has become a metaphor outside the
>interpretive
realm of mainstream culture. By attempting to define their
>sexuality
with terms like "homosexual" or "straight" we are creating
a
>totalizing
discourse of institutional oppression.
>Just
a thought,
>Chris
I don't
know about your more philosophical questions here but in terms of
the
post that stated Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg were all homosexual you
are
correct in pointing out the flaw or limitation of that statement.
All
three of these guys had sex with women.
They would have to all be
called
bisexual if labels were to be given.
Kerouac and Cassady were
basically
heterosexual men. Both had sexual experiences with men though,
that is
true. Ginsberg on the other hand is
basically homosexual even
though
he had sex with women at times.
Burroughs seems to be the truest
bisexual
of the lot, all though I don't know that he would admit it. He
talked
about how he would go to women prostitutes when he was young because
he
wanted to have sex. He did love his
wife and had a true heterosexual
relationship
with her. Once they were even busted for being caught having
sex at
the side of the road. In Literary
Outlaw there are some interesting
anecdotes
about Burroughs and his heterosexuality.
On of his companions in
the
early sixties in London said he thought Burroughs was a latent
heterosexual. They were at a strip show once and the guy
said to burroughs
"let's
get out of here". Burroughs said,
"well let's just wait a little
while." The guy recounting the story was saying
Burroughs was quite
enjoying
himself. In a letter to kerouac,
Burroughs told him he was
considering
giving up men and going back to women. (Burroughs used a slang
word
for vagina rather than the word women).
Burroughs did have a crush
on
Ginsberg in the fifties that Ginsberg didn't really reciprocate. I
don't
know if they ever had sex, nor do I particularly care.
And in
terms of the earlier post, I do not believe Kerouac ever had sex
with
Burroughs as was stated nor did Cassady and Burroughs have sex (they
didn't
necessarily like each other all that much even as friends). Nor
Cassady
and Kerouac.
I don't
think these aspects of their lives are particularly important. I
posted
this simply for accuracy. All this
information I got from the
biographies.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:47:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hey Jack: don't give Mom foot
massages (fwd)
>----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
> his mom
is a
>deity
(much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This
is totally irrelevant to where this (and the preceeding message) meant
>to
go, but the Virgin Mary is not a diety in the Catholic tradition and not
>all
Protestant Christian sects believe that Jesus and God are one and the
>same. Just being a nit-picking theologist.
I
appreciate this post. But just to be
even more nitpicky, theologically
if a
demonination doesn't believe in the deity of Christ it, by definition,
would
not be Christian.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:47:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CHANCE???
>>Tabula
Rasa is not written in stone.
>No
Tabula Rasa is not engraved in stone but it is a very valid theory.
The
deep impression the Tabula Rasa theory has had upon you actually presents
a good
argument for its validity.
>Cage
knew that there would be sounds that he knew would occur. >Such as,
the
buzz of the lights, people giggling and moving around >in their seats,
and
people kicking seats etc. He knew that
these >were going to happen
because
of his past experiences. But, there
>were also sounds that he did
not
know would occur.
Is your
last sentence a concession that Cage, and by extension Kerouac, might
have
possible been able to use chance in
their work, as you originally
asked?
I am
not trying to denigrate your ideas. Just don't be surprised when people
here
disagree with you, because to seize
onto inevitability is to deny the
validity
of much of what sparked beat literature. Why seek a return to the
uncarved
block when you can't fight tabula rasa? Why bother wondering about
your
original face before you were born?
Julie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:57:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Chris Bryan
<Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: cages and courageous
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.91.951201081612.36920B-100000@black.missouri.edu>
I buy
into this Dionysus bit...I mean: what culture DOESN'T like
transubstantiation?
CHRIS
On Fri,
01 Dec 1995 08:17:18 -0600 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat
Generation
List) wrote:
>On
Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Chris Bryan wrote:
>>
let's analyze, shall we:
>>
>>
maybe Achilles, whose only vulnerability was his mortal heel (or, "pierced
>>
foot"), was the impetus for Kerouac's Leo character...Achilles had a
goddess
>
for
>>
a mom (not just sexually) and her name was Thetis and she copulated with a
>>
mortal and they decided that Achilles would be the hero/messiah of the Greeks
>>
and so on and so on...well, hell, my theory deconstructs rather easily
>
too...but
>>
consider this: perhaps Achilles is the Christ figure of BC Greece -- he mom
is
> a
>>
deity (much like the Virgin Mary in Catholicism) and he is martyred...
>>
>>
I don't buy your theory but I enjoy exchanging bullshit with you...
>>
>>
Cordially,
>>
CHRIS
>>
>I
think it is Dionysis, God of Wine, etc. who most closely resembles
>Christ--
his body being eaten, and all, by his followers... (also Osiris
>in
Egypt).
>
>Yrs.
&c.
>Steven
Cahn
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:59:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Chris Bryan
<Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Easy Fit or Traditional Fit for the
ex-football player?
In-Reply-To: <0019BF3001C93A7C@-SMF->
LOL...Touche
On Fri,
01 Dec 1995 10:02:04 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat
Generation
List) wrote:
>Allen
Ginsberg wore khakis
>
>
>
>Molly
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:25:48 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Eckert, Molly K"
<MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>
Subject: Re: CHANCE???
In-Reply-To: <E33ABF3001C93A7C@-SMF->
JULIE
Yes I
do believe in some chance as with Cage and his Silent SOanta.
I know
that people will disagree with me that is the purpose of a debate
I
firmly believe that chance is mostly
bull. There are very few events
that
chance could actually occur.
SUch
as, how does jack Kerouac write a book and
say that it was chance.
If he
didn't know the words and he didn't have any sort of experiences at
all
they would not fall into place as they did
Responses?
Molly
MKEckert@cedarcrest.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:26:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Rita T. Friedman"
<NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>
Subject: Q. Who is That Lazy Sluggish Undefined
Age Group?
A. Which one?
Why do
I keep this going? I guess I like this
topic.
A
question for you, Peter or anyone, who are the writers of generation X?
Other than some of us, and Douglas Coupland,
how many can you name? Really,
not
being facetious, I'm curious. Could we
try to compile a list of both The
Writers
of Generation X and The Writers of the Beat period? I think it would
be
interesting. Any takers?
And
let's drop this lazy, sluggish thing, ok?
It's one thing to call a group
of
Nazis evil murderers and classify them as that, or a group of KKK members
on
horses in white sheets evil racists or even a lesser example a group of
loggers
begging and striking to keep their jobs selfish and unconcerened, but
to call
an entire age group something is way too bold of a statement for me
to
handle.
I
really liked Chris' comment "I take personal offense -- just because I sit
in
front of a computer monitor all day and don't even bother to do anything
that
takes more energy than lighting a cigarette, slurping a Coke, and typing
on the
keyboard doesn't mean that me or my generation is lazy..."
And a
note to Chris, ciggarettes contain Vitamin C and potassium anyway, and
Cooke
is a great source of fiber, and computer X-rays actually cure brain
tumors,
so you're kinda exercising there.
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
From: "Darius A. Yasiejko"
<Derangel@AOL.COM>
this
thought just occured to me... not that i am beating this to death, but
did
anyone ever think that maybe the reason behind gen-x being lazy and
sluggish...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lazy
Gen Xers is the same stereotyping that led to the creation of the
dirty,
dope fiend Beatnik image that pervades the notion of the Beat
Generation. Unfortunately many peopl e out there and on
this listseem
to
forget that they were all artists and contributed a great deal to
blossoming
American position in the post-WWII art world.
There was
alot
more to them than the Beatnik, just liike the artists of Gen X
are
much more than Kurt Cobain and other media created representatives.
I don't
know what any other under 35's out ht there think, but I
find it
horrible that Bret Easton Ellis and others are called the
writers
of "our" generation.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Robert Greer c/o CUNY
212/346-8452 (fax 8453)"
<GREER2@BMACADM.BITNET>
Register
Robert Greer CUNY 212 / 346-8452 (fax 8453)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: About Ginsberg
All,
Are we
getting a little too coffee clatch here
or is this really important
to our
interpretation of Ginsberg as a n author?
And
just how old are these children we're talking about here? 6? 17? under
21?
I
agree, nothing wrong with homosexuality.
But that is soooooooo irrelevant.
Rita
>>Clarification
here: I know that Ginseberg's gay and had sex with several of
our
Beat fellows. My question, which a few of your answered with clarity, had
to do
with whether or not he was having and promoting the idea of having sex
with
children. Someone pointed out that by 50's standards he was "sexually
deviant"
simply by practicing homosexuality, and so why wouldn't he be
deviant
by today's standards? Are we really
putting having sex with boys and
having
sex with male adults on the same level of "deviance" (And just so
there's
no confusion, let me clarify that I DON'T consider homosexuality
deviant).
Does anyone else think sleeping with children isn't a behavior we
necessarily
want in our heroes?
- Liz
"...who
journeyed to Denver, who died in Denver, who came back to Denver &
waited
in vain, who watched over Denver & brooded & loned in Denver and
finally
went away to find out the Time, & now Denver is lonesome for her
heroes...."
(from "Howl")>>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Rita T. Friedman"
<NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beats and homosexuality
ok,
here's a thought, what if we accept that we as a species are not
attracted
to sexes or genders but rather people, and that's why Bill, Jack,
Neal
and Allen were able to move beyond the fact that they all had the same
set of
genetalia and express their love for one another in a physical way?
My theory, everyone (with very few
exceptions) is bi-sexual, to conform to
the
phrase, with almost no-one being purely straigght or purely gay.
Obviously, its easy to be attracted to one
sex more than the other for
reasons
of pure sexual enjoyment and certain quirks that often divide the
genders,
but do you *love* your lover for the body or the inside? If we're
all the
same color in the dark, aren't we all the same inside without our
genatalia?
Rita
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:10:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cages and courageous
Chris
said "
I buy
into this Dionysus bit...I mean: what culture DOESN'T like
transubstantiation?
"
But if
we are familiar with Tom Robbins' Jitterbug Perfume, we remember that
according
to many, Dionysius is actually the God of Drugs (incl. wine) and
the
Church has raped these stories.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:12:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Robert Greer c/o CUNY
212/346-8452 (fax 8453)"
<GREER2@BMACADM.BITNET>
Register
Robert Greer CUNY 212 / 346-8452 (fax 8453)
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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:12:59 -0500
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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:17:53 -0500
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From: Kristen VanRiper
<pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats and homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
<951201151050_40862254@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "Rita T.
Friedman" at Dec 1, 95
03:10:51 pm
>
>
ok, here's a thought, what if we accept that we as a species are not
>
attracted to sexes or genders but rather people, and that's why Bill, Jack,
>
Neal and Allen were able to move beyond the fact that they all had the same
>
set of genetalia and express their love for one another in a physical way?
> My theory, everyone (with very few exceptions)
is bi-sexual, to conform to
>
the phrase, with almost no-one being purely straigght or purely gay.
> Obviously, its easy to be attracted to one
sex more than the other for
>
reasons of pure sexual enjoyment and certain quirks that often divide the
>
genders, but do you *love* your lover for the body or the inside? If we're
>
all the same color in the dark, aren't we all the same inside without our
>
genatalia?
>
Rita
estute
observations sister! and robbins
too....what a human....