Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:13:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Kirsten A. Hirsch"

              <Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>

Subject:      Baraka

 

I saw Baraka read last year in Richmond, VA and was not all that impressed. I

think the reading was tainted by the write up in the program which stressed

that he had "denounced" the beats and was born again into his African-

American heritage and that he was not the same man who married a white woman

(which he did) in the 1950's.

 

I just don't understand why he had to throw the entire part of his life that

was "beat" out the window in order to appreciate his heritage. I found that

very disappointing.

 

Kirsten

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 29 Nov 1995 08:49:57 GMT

Reply-To:     simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Simon Okotie <simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>

Subject:      Re: CHANCE???

 

In your message dated Tuesday 28, November 1995 you wrote :

 

> I believe...that there is no such thing as chance. Everything stems from some

> sort of experience.  Our whole life has been experience after experience.  If

> he says that it is chance it is probably a subconcious memory or experience >

> that is  being written down onto his paper.

 

There is nothing *but* chance in life.  Life is chance.  OK, it may be that what

is 'experience' stems from a chance happening to ourselves or to our ancestors

but it is (was) chance.  It was chance that your parents met one another (not

meant as a flame!)...

 

I'd like to expand on this later.

 

--

Simon Okotie

 

e-mail: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk

tel:    +181 830 3604

 

22 The Avenue

Queen's Park

London

NW6 7YD

UK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:11:04 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject:      me and Cezanne

In-Reply-To:  <951202181248_123181710@mail06.mail.aol.com>

 

$12.95...SNAPSHOT POETICS...ginsberg authored... 1993/4 was publication

date...if you can't find it at the bookstore of your choice, go to a national

chain like Barnes & Noble or BDalton or something and ask them to look on the

books in print list and order one for you...I work at a bookstore and i've done

this for people all the time

 

CHRIS

 

 

On Sat, 02 Dec 1995 18:12:49 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>More about the photo collection, please! Where can I get it, how much does it

>cost, etc.... Thanks! - Liz

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:13:53 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject:      Leroi Jones

In-Reply-To:  <9512031818.AA14023@cabell.VCU.EDU>

 

and the fact that he [Baraka] hates Stanley Crouch, outspoken cultural critic

and former VILLAGE VOICE writer and present collaborator with Wynton Marsalis,

is a definite turn-off...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 13:13:42 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>I saw Baraka read last year in Richmond, VA and was not all that impressed. I

>think the reading was tainted by the write up in the program which stressed

>that he had "denounced" the beats and was born again into his African-

>American heritage and that he was not the same man who married a white woman

>(which he did) in the 1950's.

>

>I just don't understand why he had to throw the entire part of his life that

>was "beat" out the window in order to appreciate his heritage. I found that

>very disappointing.

>

>Kirsten

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:20:14 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject:      grohl

Comments: To: "L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8b)"

          <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <01HYDGM33TBMAUXJ2J@baylor.edu>

 

LIZ:

if you could, please send info on mag re: naropa pronto

 

CHRIS

 

 

 

 

On Sat, 02 Dec 1995 17:59:59 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

>Generation List) wrote:

>

>>The school is the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets, a division of the

>>Naropa Institute in Boulder. Ginsberg helped found it in 1974 (I think).

>>Ginsberg is on the Board, but is not currently teaching. In 1994, Naropa

>>hosted a tribute to Ginsberg called "Beats and Other Rebel Angels." There's a

>>very good article about it in the July 1994 issue of Shambhala Sun. In

>>includes an article written by Ginsberg, several pictures of the Beat

>>fellows, and poetry by people from the Kerouac School. Let me know if you

>>want more information on how to get this mag.

>>                                                    Namaste, Liz

>>

>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:47:59 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject:      Re: me and Cezanne

In-Reply-To:  <910AC23001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

CHRIS

 

What does this have to do with Cezanne???

 

Molly

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:49:52 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject:      Re: CHANCE??? (fwd)

In-Reply-To:  <DCE3C13001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

DEAR

 

TED

 

 

 

I am not trying to beat anyone over the head.  I am just trying to

express my opinions of what I believe chance to be.  This expression

stems from ideas that I have learned in both literature and art classes

 

MOLLY

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 19:58:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject:      Re: jack kerouack institute for...

In-Reply-To:  <951202175958_123172981@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Liz Prato" at

              Dec 2, 95 05:59:59 pm

 

->has anyone heard of a book called 'Go' by John Clellon Holmes?\

(Chas.Jarvis writes of it in his 'Visions of Kerouac'.

 

 

 

 

>

> The school is the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets, a division of the

> Naropa Institute in Boulder. Ginsberg helped found it in 1974 (I think).

> Ginsberg is on the Board, but is not currently teaching. In 1994, Naropa

> hosted a tribute to Ginsberg called "Beats and Other Rebel Angels." There's a

> very good article about it in the July 1994 issue of Shambhala Sun. In

> includes an article written by Ginsberg, several pictures of the Beat

> fellows, and poetry by people from the Kerouac School. Let me know if you

> want more information on how to get this mag.

>                                                     Namaste, Liz

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 20:58:16 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: grohl

 

Chris (and anyone else who's interested),

 

Shambhala Sun is a modern Buddhist Mag - very cool stuff, and they're soooo

enlightened that they even have e-mail! Shambhsun@aol.com. I know they're set

up so you can order past issues & you'd probably still be able to get that

July 1994 issue with Ginsberg on the cover if that's what you're interested

in. Incase you need it, their snail-mail address is: 1345 Spruce St, Boulder,

CO  80302-4886.  They're published bi-monthly at a cost of $20 a year, but

sometimes have special first time rates. Hope you like it! (I should get a

comission for that pitch).

                Namaste, Liz

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:11:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Buddhism

 

I agree with Jim - it doesn't seem fair to be critical of Jack to have stuck

exclusively to strict Buddhism. What if he believed exclusively in one

religion and practiced it by the book and never questioned it - he wouldn't

be the Jack Kerouac we all know and love. Jack was writing about experience,

his own process, not trying to be the definitive word on anything, not even

the Beat society of which he was the epicenter.  I don't think what really

matters is what spiritual road he took, but that he chose to embark on one in

the first place.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:43:37 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: jack kerouack institute for... (fwd)

 

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From:         Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

 

->has anyone heard of a book called 'Go' by John Clellon Holmes?\

(Chas.Jarvis writes of it in his 'Visions of Kerouac'.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It was the first really Beat book any of them published.  If I recall

corrected, JK was a bit peeved that Holmes got it published before

OTR.  They are a bit similar in ways (the two books) - it's ggood though.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:45:41 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject:      firehouse

In-Reply-To:  <960AC23001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

molly:

you can beat me over the head with anything you want whenever you want...

 

CHRIS

 

 

 

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 15:49:52 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>DEAR

>

>TED

>

>

>

>I am not trying to beat anyone over the head.  I am just trying to

>express my opinions of what I believe chance to be.  This expression

>stems from ideas that I have learned in both literature and art classes

>

>MOLLY

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:47:50 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject:      black glasses

In-Reply-To:  <950AC23001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

one of gins' captions for one of his pictures of his Lower E. Side apt. in

fifties included an allusion to his paintings on wall, one was a portrait of

him, another was a Cezanne print...he misleads in captions by saying: "picture

of me and Cezanne" so I was looking frantically for AG with the dead artist in a

pic...

 

 

chris

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 15:47:59 -0500 (EST) BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>CHRIS

>

>What does this have to do with Cezanne???

>

>Molly

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:48:44 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject:      GO man GO

In-Reply-To:  <199512040058.AA26483@world.std.com>

 

yeah, i think i heard of it...

it's only the seminal work introducing the beat movement in 1951...

 

 

 

 

 

On Sun, 03 Dec 1995 19:58:21 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>->has anyone heard of a book called 'Go' by John Clellon Holmes?\

>(Chas.Jarvis writes of it in his 'Visions of Kerouac'.

>

>

>

>

>>

>> The school is the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poets, a division of the

>> Naropa Institute in Boulder. Ginsberg helped found it in 1974 (I think).

>> Ginsberg is on the Board, but is not currently teaching. In 1994, Naropa

>> hosted a tribute to Ginsberg called "Beats and Other Rebel Angels." There's a

>> very good article about it in the July 1994 issue of Shambhala Sun. In

>> includes an article written by Ginsberg, several pictures of the Beat

>> fellows, and poetry by people from the Kerouac School. Let me know if you

>> want more information on how to get this mag.

>>                                                     Namaste, Liz

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:53:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Balangue Christina A <cbalangu@UCET.UFL.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beats and Existensialism

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

          <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu>

In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Fri, 01 Dec 1995 14:37:15 MST."

              <Pine.SOL.3.91.951201143538.4412B-100000@dana.ucc.nau.edu>

 

Me too!

If I knew how, I would let you in on it.

I lost that first e-mail I received that explained how to "UNSUBSCRIBE."

Well let me know.

Christina

cbalangu@ucet.ufl.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:35:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Meredith Blackmann <BoomShenka@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jack's Oedipul Complex

 

i believe oedipus' natural parents pierced his feet when they abandoned him

on the mountain top.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:02:04 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject:      Re: firehouse

In-Reply-To:  <E60CC33001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

CHRIS

 

Thanks for the offer...

 

Molly

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:26:53 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      List replies

 

I'm glad to see that traffic on the Beat-l list is increasing.  However,

I've noticed that a lot of the messages posted on the list would be more

appropriate asprivate responses or replies to a particular sender.

Please remember to post only those replies to the list that you think

will interest all 270 subscribers.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:23:57 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To:  <EA0CC33001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

>

> Molly

 

I'm hoping I have the right person-- some email trouble over the weekend

has signifcantly cleansed my files-- but, I'm curious.  If you do believe

greatly in chance (and I think you said you came to this through study of

literature and art)-- what about responsibility?  Are we responsible for

our actions-- or, to keep it in terms of BEAT-L, maybe-- was the William

Tell fiasco "chance" and should Mr. Burroughs not feel guilt?

 

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 11:54:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

Comments: To: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

In-Reply-To:  <2A4007A1FF2@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

 

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, CLAY VAUGHAN wrote:

 

> Ahh, you might have inadvertantly hit on something here that might

> clear up some apparent differences of opinion folks have been having

> regarding the notion of chance. If we use the example Steven Cahn

> suggested, maybe there is another way to express what we are meaning

> by "chance". Maybe it's not chance at all that we're discussing here

> (or need to discuss): maybe it's the idea of ACCIDENT. These aren't

> synonymous, at least in a literary vein, I don't think. And certainly

> chance played into the notion of WSB's Wm Tell game--we're talking

> POSSIBILITY here-- it was accident that caused Joan's death, not

> chance. Chance is forever present, possibility is (at least mosttimes

> conceivably) present, but accident is an outcome, a result, an end

> product of chance.

>

> Clay

> clv100u@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

>

 

My question remains, though-- given chance, possibility, or accident-- is

Mr. Burroughs responsible?  He set up the game-- but where does his part

and and something else take over?  I think in some writing by him on the

subject, he does talk about some invader feeling being present-- is this

just avoidance?  Or something else?

 

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:27:15 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To:  <3157C33001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

STEVEN

 

Well I am not the one who mentioned Burroughs.  However, yes I did say

taht I learned chance through art and literature.  And I have a very

difficult time believing in it.  I do believe that some things are

chance.  Such as, meeting someone on the street that you haven't seen for

ages or something like that.  As for being responsible for our actions,

that is kind of difficult. If we look at those people who have mental

disabilitites and hurt someone or kill them can we say that they were

responsible.  Or do we blame it on them being insane.  Similar to what

our court systems are trying to figure out currently for some cases.

 

I am not really sure what you mean by responsibility.  That is why I gave

the example of the person with a mental disability.  We may never know if

we are responsible for some actions as crime and abusing others.

However, I do believe that in some subconscious way we are responsible

for what we do.  That can be through literature, art and music etc.

 

Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

us when we are born.  I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

Though some people disagree with me.

 

Responses?

 

Molly

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:39:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To:  <3357C33001C93A7C@-SMF-> from "Eckert, Molly K" at Dec 4,

              95 03:27:15 pm

 

> Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

> us when we are born.  I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

> Though some people disagree with me.

i have to say, that if this were the case....i would be a bigoted right-

wing conservative nazi, with 5 children by now....on welfare.....addicted

to numerous compulsive behavioral problems.....etc....

 

no....i can't say that we are all born as a blank slate.....

 

look at neal......

in his book....

here was a kid who was beaten down...by society...by his brother....

he saw all that was horrid and cruel in this world, and yet, he was able

to separate himself from the pain and live.......

 

he wasn't a saint.....but he knew something.....early on in life......

he was aware......

 

 

 

>

> Responses?

>

> Molly

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:38:51 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

In-Reply-To:  <3357C33001C93A7C@-SMF->

 

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Eckert, Molly K wrote:

>

> Well I am not the one who mentioned Burroughs.  However, yes I did say

> taht I learned chance through art and literature.  And I have a very

> difficult time believing in it.  I do believe that some things are

> chance.  Such as, meeting someone on the street that you haven't seen for

 

> I am not really sure what you mean by responsibility.  That is why I gave

> the example of the person with a mental disability.  We may never know if

> we are responsible for some actions as crime and abusing others.

> However, I do believe that in some subconscious way we are responsible

> for what we do.  That can be through literature, art and music etc.

>

> Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

> us when we are born.  I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

> Though some people disagree with me.

>

> Responses?

>

> Molly

>

Yes.  I kinda thought I was wrong about who I attributed the thread to--

my apologies.  It makes my question concerning responsibility moot, to an

extent-- I suspect, excluding people who are not "in command" for one

reason or another (and how to define that is something else-- Burroughs'

state of mind at the WmTell episode, his fault, no?  So actions therafter

his responsibility-- and does anybody else feel bad about talking about

this incident so coldly on the net??) that, as you say, we are

responsible.

 

 

Though, I suppose I remain curious-- if you think we are blank slates

when born, at what point does the "subconscious" responsibility begin--

or do we remain, because we are just the result fo factors beyond our

control, innocent of all charges against us?  Or is it societal "sins of

the father" we must deal with?  And, in that dealing, do some produce the

art we're really supposed to be talking about here?

 

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:44:05 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

Comments: To: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

Comments: cc: CLV100U@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

In-Reply-To:  <2A6E4422F2D@mozart.fpa.odu.edu>

 

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, CLAY VAUGHAN wrote:

> police reports and newspaper articles. I have read that stuff about

> his being "invaded", something I think he's used as an M.O. in

> writing at least some of his earlier works. He claims not to have

> remembered writing much of NAKED LUNCH, which could always be the

> excuse of a junkie's nodding out, but the cut ups too had much of

> their coming about as if someone "outside" had planted the

> construction of those words in just the right order. And again, those

> long ago tape recording experiments Burroughs did with a microphone

> on, recording the sounds in an "empty" room, suggest, too, this kind

> of reasoning: that there is something "out there".

>

> He may actually have believed the invader theory, to an extent,

> regarding the Wm Tell incident, but I don't think this to be any more

> than a self-defense mechanism, to spare himself some of the grief

> that full-fledged aknowledgement of his lone responsibility would've

> brought crashing down on him.

>

> I think that may be what's behind the greatness in a lot of art, an

> inexplicable aspect to a work that defies deconstruction, and commands

> acceptance on its own terms.

>

>

> Clay

> clv100u@mozart.fpa.odu.edu

>

What you're referring to is the age-old idea of the muse, perhaps?

Burroughs' "invader" idea-- which isn't the best way to put it--

his reportign for who knows what-- is just a nuclear-aged version of the

happier, more pleasant visions of inspiration, I think.  And, maybe that

can't be deconstructed, at least to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Yrs. c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:56:22 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Bruce Greeley (Echo News Service)" <v-bgree@MICROSOFT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beats/Existentialists

 

 Message-ID: red-34-msg951204205759MTP[01.51.00]000000a7-37481

 

The "triple manifestation" idea is great, Levi!

And how these three approaches to the rebellion are colored by their

respective nationalities!

(I'll always remember a teacher remarking how the beats were the last

artistic movement that was positive -- and now in such contrast to the

angry young men and existentialists...!)

 

----------

From: Levi Asher  <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L  <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Beats/Existentialists

Date: Saturday, December 02, 1995 4:39PM

 

One final thing about the Beats and Existentialism ... I'm just now reading

"Minor Characters" by Joyce Johnson for the first time, and she mentions

Kerouac heavily digging Kierkegaard.  Who was, of course, the first

existentialist philosopher.

 

I've always seen the American Beats, the French "Existentialists" of the

postwar era (Sartre, Camus) and the "Angry Young Men" of Britian as a

triple manifestation of the same rebellion, though of course the differences

are as interesting as the similarities between these three literary groups.

 

------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:58:05 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit)

Comments: To: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

 

Yeah, Steven, the whole idea of muse and inspiration might possibly

be anathema to the old man's conception of his own work. He'd

probably be much more comfortable with a more intrusive all-seeing

mind or eye "interfering" with our thought processes in order to

create anything. It's darker and more attune to Burroughs's vision of

things.

 

Clay

 

But by the same token, WE might also see that interference as being

very GOD-LIKE!! Oohhh, and would that send shivers down the old

man's spine, to be sure.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:02:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Postmodern

 

>Given this, I'd say Burroughs is pomo, Kerouac, particularly in his attempt

>to put all his works together into the Duluoz Legend, a mo.

 

>Ted P.

 

By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

 

WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

a "spawn" of the movement.

 

So not only Burroughs and Kerouac et al, but John Cage, Jean-Luc Godard,

and the works of Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Pynchon, Roland Barthes,

and others.

 

By my source, mind you.. not that I'm too familiar with the last three

names.

 

                         ..Critter

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 16:19:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ohmygod!!!!   We Killed Chance!!!!!!!!

 

Hello All-

 

>>>i have to say, that if this were the case....i would be a bigoted right-

wing conservative nazi, with 5 children by now....on welfare.....addicted

to numerous compulsive behavioral problems.....etc....>>>>

 

Oh c'mon, now.  Is this a plea for pity?  Perhaps the idea of being molded

was meant in another sense also.  The one that you grow up dissatisfied with

what surrounds you, and you vow to make yourself different ("I swear that

when I have kids...")

 

>>>>look at neal......

in his book....

here was a kid who was beaten down...by society...by his brother....

he saw all that was horrid and cruel in this world, and yet, he was able

to separate himself from the pain and live.......

 

he wasn't a saint.....but he knew something.....early on in life......

he was aware......>>>

 

Exactly.

 

 

This is kinda like trying to order one pizza at a big party, no-one wants the

same toppings.  In other words, I don't think we are going to come to an

accord on this topic.

 

Chance is one of the Great Many things we have no scientific proof on.  Sure,

statistically you're going to get half the tosses heads and half the tosses

tails, but that's not the same thing.

 

The William Tell incident?  Does it really matter?  The matter of fact is

that he killed wifey.

 

>>If we look at those people who have mental

disabilitites and hurt someone or kill them can we say that they were

responsible.  Or do we blame it on them being insane.  Similar to what

our court systems are trying to figure out currently for some cases.>>

 

Well, I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, Molly, but here's what

I make of it.  Sometimes people do bad, bad things.  ("I want to pet the

rabbits, George....")  Sometimes they mean to, sometimes it just happens that

way.

 

>> I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.>>

 

Well, mebbe.  There's that whole gene thing....

See, to an extent, we have the power to be whatever we want to be (no-one

flame me), but at the same time there are certain things I will never be able

to do without serious operations that probably aren't even possible yet .  (I

can't flip my tongue over)

 

And yes, we can change our *minds*, but the question we're all asking is can

we change our *fate*.  I think the best answer to that is that we can't

change what we aren't sure of to begin with.  (Anyone here ever read Dick's

"The World of Jones?")

 

If there is fate, maybe it is best we leave it alone.  Bc if it *does* exist,

then there's probably a reason.  but then again, if fate really does exist,

then we can't change it anyway, now can we?

 

Maybe we should lay aside the art and literature books for a while (no

offense, Molly), and all just take a nice long nap instead.

 

Well, that's what I'm going to do.  good nite all.

Rita

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:09:35 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject:      Jack Kerouac Lit Prize Winner

 

TENNESSEE WRITER WINS 7TH ANNUAL JACK KEROUAC LITERARY PRIZE

 

Earl S. Braggs, writer, poet and teacher from Chattanooga, TN was chosen

as the winner of the 7th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. Braggs'

entry, "After Allyson," a chapter from a novel in progress, <Looking for

Jack Kerouac>, was selected from over 400 entries of poetry, fiction and

non-fiction. The prize, a cash award of $500 was presented at the 8th

Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival, in Lowell, MA.

 

The judge of this year's prize, James T. Jones,Professor of English at

Southwest Missouri State University, and author of <A Map of Mexico City

Blues>, praised the level of accomplishment in all manuscript entries, but

cited Bragg's work as exemplary. "I looked for evidence of Kerouac's

influence. Not imitation Kerouac, either...but writing that aspires to the

foremost place in American letters."

 

The Jack Kerouac Literary Prize is sponsored by the Estate of Jack and

Stella Kerouac (John Sampas, Literary Executor), Middlesex Community

College, University of Massachusetts Lowell. the Lowell National

Historical Park, and Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, a non-profit corporation.

 

This year's literary prize administrator was Brian Foye, a Professor of

English at Middlesex Community college, Lowell, MA. Writers seeking

information on the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize should send a stamped,

self-addressed envelope to the Jack Kerouac Literary Prize, PO Box 8788,

Lowell, MA 01853-8788.adminsitrator

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:21:44 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Steve Smith <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject:      Re: About Ginsberg (fwd)

In-Reply-To:  <951130.231328.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

 

On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:

 

> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------

> From:         "Darius A. Yasiejko" <Derangel@AOL.COM>

> Subject:      Re: About Ginsberg

>

>                  i  wouldn't doubt if ginsberg and burroughs had a sexual

> relationship at one point....

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Allen, Bill and JAck were all homosexual and all had sex with each other.

> This is not hard to find out as ever biography of them mentions it.

>

> Neal also slept with them.

>

Whoa!  *Homosexual*?  How about bisexual, at least when it

comes to Kerouac and

Cassady?  Bill and Allen, though they both had hetero relations, count

themselves exclusively homosexual.  Jack and Neal, though they had

homosexual relations, counted themselves exclusively hetero.

 

Best,

 

Steve

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:27:31 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject:      Postmodernism

In-Reply-To:  <30C361C7@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

 

Interesting notes and I applaud you on the eloquent name-drops, but

Postmodernism, though its entire thesis goes against definition and

pigeonholing,  has three identifiable traits, these being the most basic and

oversimplifying an always fluid style:

 

1) a response to the Unimaginable:

     emphasis on ambiguity in literature and art; abstractions abound; non-

     objective and reader/viewer specific (see Stanley Fish's IS THERE A TEXT IN

     THIS CLASS? or any Richard Rorty book)

 

2) concerned with denaturalization:

     an open challenge to overcome the stylized boundaries and confines to which

     Modernism so obediently yielded; striving for the sanctity of silence (see

     Buddhism); a washing away of the established norms and rigid standards that

     we rely on -- for instance, the linguistics, structuralism, and

     hermeneutics that so dominate Modernism

 

and finally,

 

3) art attempts to become indistinguishable from life:

     arguably, an intertwining of the former two, especially in its effects on

     culture; this goes well with the recent arguments about "Chance" -- the

     Modernist model held up determinism as absolute, that if we can put it all

     together, we can know everything, predict results, etc. (see Enlightenment)

     but Postmodernism says that it is relative and subjective, that the great

     "IT" is individual-specific; overall, life is based on influence of culture

     but at the same time, culture is defined by the influence of life, so they

     start working interchangeably, each giving and taking, and eventually, to

     the point that these little "does art mirror society or does society mirror

     art" conversations wither away

 

 

This is my input and I remind you all that I am not doing the topic justice by

my sheer simplification and terseness.  For further information, read the

suggestions above and see a great book called THE POSTMODERN TURN.

 

CHRIS BRYAN

 

 

 

 

On Mon, 04 Dec 1995 16:02:34 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

 

>>Given this, I'd say Burroughs is pomo, Kerouac, particularly in his attempt

>>to put all his works together into the Duluoz Legend, a mo.

>

>>Ted P.

>

>By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

>

>WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

>antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

>to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

>a "spawn" of the movement.

>

>So not only Burroughs and Kerouac et al, but John Cage, Jean-Luc Godard,

>and the works of Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Pynchon, Roland Barthes,

>and others.

>

>By my source, mind you.. not that I'm too familiar with the last three

>names.

>

>                         ..Critter

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:40:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Chances and Choices

 

>Planning on chance.. hehe.. what a concept!

 

Not such an odd juxtaposition as it might seem on the surface!

 

Having just returned from a week out of town, I'm about 2/3 the way through

getting caught up on this thread about chance in creativity, and have the

need to throw in my own 2 1/2 cents worth.

 

1.) Chance is _not_ the same as "random" coincidence. If you read up on

probability theory, you'll find that chance is actually mathematically

predictable (if it weren't, Las Vegas could not exist). There are "laws", if

you will, of chance. Moreover, there are apparently "laws" that govern chaos;

not only might the fluttering of a butterflies wing in Australia give rise to

a hurricane in Jamaica, but it may do so in a predictable fashion!

 

2.) Physics aside, I do sense that this topic, applied to human creativity,

opens a Pandora's box of paradoxes. When I write, I usually have some general

theme, perhaps a few phrases, as a jumping off point. I may even adopt

further structures: meter, rhyme scheme, etc. But, what happens next does

have its element of "chance"; the words may lead me in unpredicted and

unintended directions. Sometimes, the poem that emerges is entirely different

from the poem I intended to write. Or, what is written may inspire me to

write another, unforseen, poem.

 

But, what gave rise to the first poem? Was it "chance" that brought together

my thoughts with the proper mood to write the poem, or that caused me to

select a poem as the medium for my thoughts, rather than a short story or an

essay (or painting, song, prayer, etc.)? Or - Did I come to write the poem as

a result of a series of conscious and cumulative choices? But if so - what

brought me to each of those choices?

 

Am I a poet dreaming of a butterfly in Australia, a butterfly in Australia,

or the dream of the poet who dreams of the butterfly, and so on in what is

becoming an infinite regression?

 

Perhaps chance and choice are closer in nature than some might think.

 

Luther Jett

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:22:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         philzi <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      New book.

 

There will be a new Jack Kerouac biography by Ellis Amburn coming out by

around August of next year. It will be called the "The Beat Of Life". Ellis

Amburn was in Lowell Mass. most of the summer doing research. He was JKs'

editor in the 60s. I think this will shed some light on later years. Not

much discussion about the Jan Kerouac- Nicosia-- Sampas fued. The Sampas

family is getting a bad rap and they are doing some good things relating to

the JK estate. But I still would like to see a Kerouac museum in Lowell.

What say to that?   Philzi - Lowell Mass.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:42:25 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: chance (to kill it a bit) (fwd)

 

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From:         "Eckert, Molly K" <MKECKERT@CCC-S.CEDARCREST.EDU>

 

                              As for being responsible for our actions,

that is kind of difficult. If we look at those people who have mental

disabilitites and hurt someone or kill them can we say that they were

responsible   Or do we blame it on them being insane.

 

I am not really sure what you mean by responsibility.  That is why I gave

the example of the person with a mental disability.  We may never know if

we are responsible for some actions as crime and abusing others.

However, I do believe that in some subconscious way we are responsible

for what we do.  That can be through literature, art and music etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What if a mentally ill - or drugged out person were to write a novel?

Are they responsible or is it chance?  Who's to say whose mind is

insane and whose isn't?

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I still do believe that our society and family and environment form

us when we are born.  I do believe that we are born as a blank slate.

Though some people disagree with me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Although Locke is attributed with the tabula rasa theory, I cannot see

much in what you say that the Existentialists would argue with.  Does

your existence determine who you are or your essence.  this gets us back

to last week's discussion on the Beats and how they view Existentialism.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:22:39 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Postmodern (fwd)

 

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From:         "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

 

By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

 

WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

a "spawn" of the movement.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You hit the nail on the head (it's late - please excuse bad cliches)

when you say "sometimes", but how does this automatically make

any post 1945 writing PostModern.  The notion of PostModernity

and PostModern criticism and art goes much deeper than merely

the time when a piece was written.  Please don't degrade my

humble profession any more than it already is.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 02:51:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject:      unsubscribe

 

For all of you who are trying to get OFF this mailing list, send an e-mail

to:

 

LISTSERV@cunyvm.cuny.edu

 

In the body, type UNSUBSCRIBE BEAT-L

 

Good luck.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:03:25 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ohmygod!!!!   We Killed Chance!!!!

In-Reply-To:  <951204161900_64081013@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Rita T.

              Friedman" at Dec 4, 95 04:19:07 pm

 

> >>>i have to say, that if this were the case....i would be a bigoted right-

> wing conservative nazi, with 5 children by now....on welfare.....addicted

> to numerous compulsive behavioral problems.....etc....>>>>

>

> Oh c'mon, now.  Is this a plea for pity?  Perhaps the idea of being molded

> was meant in another sense also.  The one that you grow up dissatisfied with

> what surrounds you, and you vow to make yourself different ("I swear that

> when I have kids...")

 

no..just a comment on environment.....recollecting...that as a

very young child....i knew there had to be another way.....and wondering,

how did i know this?

 

> >>>>look at neal......

> in his book....

> here was a kid who was beaten down...by society...by his brother....

> he saw all that was horrid and cruel in this world, and yet, he was able

> to separate himself from the pain and live.......

>

> he wasn't a saint.....but he knew something.....early on in life......

> he was aware......>>>

>

> Exactly.

>

>

> This is kinda like trying to order one pizza at a big party, no-one wants the

> same toppings.  In other words, I don't think we are going to come to an

> accord on this topic.

 

someone idiot always wants to order pineapple...*smile*

 

> If there is fate, maybe it is best we leave it alone.  Bc if it *does* exist,

> then there's probably a reason.  but then again, if fate really does exist,

> then we can't change it anyway, now can we?

 

sometimes there is a yearning in our heart....a sense that can be

frightening.....if we ignore it.....and we think that fate is best left

alone....then aren't we in a way, changing our destiny by not acting

upon this calling....

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:16:39 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Postmodern

In-Reply-To:  <30C361C7@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

 

On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

 

>

> >Given this, I'd say Burroughs is pomo, Kerouac, particularly in his attempt

> >to put all his works together into the Duluoz Legend, a mo.

>

> >Ted P.

>

> By definition, postmodernism is somtimes applied to literature and art after

>

> WWII (1939-45), by my resources. Thus anything absurd, antihero-esque,

> antinovel-esque, Beat, concrete, metafiction-esque, pop, op, and similar

> to surrealism and poststructuralism is considered postmodern or at least

> a "spawn" of the movement.

>

> So not only Burroughs and Kerouac et al, but John Cage, Jean-Luc Godard,

> and the works of Jorge Luis Borges, Thomas Pynchon, Roland Barthes,

> and others.

>

> By my source, mind you.. not that I'm too familiar with the last three

> names.

>

>                          ..Critter

>

I think there's something to the modernist leaning of JK-- and time

period alone does not a postmodern make.  I don't even get a real sense

of Kerouac's characters being especially "anti-hero;" they often seem

very traditional in their lonely wanderings: Poe, Whitman, Byron,

Shelley, Milton, Homer all have similar "heroes."  And his style draws

right from modernists, Joyce especially (in a sense...).  I think that,

given the group JK was surrounded by, this makes his writing all the more

interesting.

 

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:38:29 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Burroughs & computers

 

I came upon an ad for a new computer game being sold at JR Records:

"The Dark Eye: Role playing adventure game based on 3 Edgar Allan Poe

stories narrated by William S. Burroughs.  A haunting nightmare world of

murder & malevolence.  For Windows & Macintosh. $39.95."   A nice xmas

present for Burroughsians.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:45:33 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      invader or ugly spirit

 

When Burroughs spoke about the William Tell incident, he described it

more as possession by an "ugly spirit."  The "invader" in this case is

more like a demon than a muse.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:00:27 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject:      Re: invader or ugly spirit

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95120509465945@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

>

> When Burroughs spoke about the William Tell incident, he described it

> more as possession by an "ugly spirit."  The "invader" in this case is

> more like a demon than a muse.

>

One person's demon is another's muse...

 

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:29:14 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: invader or ugly spirit

 

Yes I have read  Burroughs speaking in such a manner about invaders or

spirits or dark forces.  Much of his writing is describing these things.

Concerning the day of the murder he talked about feeling these things in

the hours before the murder.  He definitely believes in sprites and spirits

and such things.  he has "painted" numerous pictures by shooting paint cans

with a shotgun and letting the paint spatter on the canvas.  In discussing

these painting and the painting style he has said that the method allow the

spirits of the paint to be made manifest, or something to that effect.

 

I would think that after all these years he could come up with a better

excusefor killing his wife  than "The Devil made me do it".

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 1995 12:10:37 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Chris Davis <CSD95001@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject:      Beats/Postmodernism

 

In response to the discussion on Postmodernism:

I agree with Peter's notion that calling any post WWII writing "postmodern"

is ludicrous, as I cannot imagine anyone applying this term to Danielle Steele

for example. As far as the attempts to define it go, I am mildly disturbed by

the simplistic and reductionist definitions that have been given. I can't

remember who gave us the "3 qualities" definition, but those terms would

probably be better applied to "Post Structuralism" rather than "Postmodernism"

 

In my view, the Beats would not really be classified as either postmodern or

poststructuralist, due to their reliance on an objective reality. The



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