beat list december 1995

sought to destruct and destroy more convention than a small handful.

My theories, mind you..

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:47:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>Dear Critter,

>well, can you first define GenerationX?

Those names that you dropped would fit into.. err, how exactly can

I say this? I'm pinned for a proper thought. Tarantino is a magnificent

writer. Anyone who knows Hollywood'll tell you he's influenced a

slew of scripts coming in now. Not only his four peices that he wrote

(or should I say three, excluding Stone's NBK), but others that you

mentioned along this same genre: Killing Zoe and just about any film

with Eric Stoltz, along with SFW and the other movie with a .45 in the

title.

So bring Douglas Coupland into the pot and what does he have in

common with RD or TR? Nothing at all. Tarantino is interested in

the lower-middle class succeeding in life by breaking social law.

As for Coupland, his character's motive isn't about success or

even about breaking the law. They simply.. what? play with their

dogs and drink beer? It's more of a character emotional based

novel than a media-propagation, such as Tarantino's work.

>I think that there are definatley some writers that fall into the GEn X

>catergory, no matter how you look at it, (unless, of course you don't look

>it at all).

Regardless of these writer's having anything to do with each other,

what do they have to do with us? The closest films to modern life

those films like Hackers and Strange Days, both (or at least Strange

Days) are very close to Tarantino's work, more media hype than

factuality. If.. lemmie stress that, IF I'd accept any movie as being even

remotely close to GenX it'd be St. Elmo's Fire or The Breakfast Club,

then again those are just movies much like both Tarantino's films and

Couplands novels, they just fit in between the two by depicting GenX

in a fair light outside of what the media would like to see while dealing

with them on a more personal level.

ANYHOW, that's not the point. So Generation X has people that dress

funky and dance on drugs with wild hair and pierced everything. Who

in the hell cares???? That's been going on for centuries! Hell, where is

the Queer literary movement? There isn't one, even though their radical

lifestyles should warrent such a movement.

It comes down to this: A literary movement, or a communicative movement

depends not on the dress, hair, or pierced body parts of a culture but

on the mindframe of the day. When looking at GenX we'd expect to see

a literary movement that is even beyond postmodern, beyond the hype

of symbolism and digging deeper into the roots of our individuality.

Do we have this? Is there out there on the lawn with Coupland and his

dog or stuffed in a little glowing suitcase? My answer: No. It might exist

in some examples. Tori Amos is a beautiful folk singer (Personally I

like Alanis Morisette much better, but they both are very talented), still

she is not GenX because she's singing the spirited folk music that has

been around for a while, before GenX at any rate.

When discussing a communicative movement, look at Dadaist literature.

If the Beat movement was actually a movement and not just an extension

of Whitman, then compare the the two (Dada and Beat) and show me

where the mark was made deepest in the literary aspect of things, not

necessarily the popularity of the movements. If we're going to affect

something

in our generation it needs to be a clear thought from our own sense of

ideals,

not simply another pretty story with rave music and the Internet. That is

the enviroment we live in, but not the product of that environment.

>I'm blanking on a lot of really important people, I know, its late, forgive

>me. but i wouldn't want to have to be responsible for leaving soemone out

>anyway....

>They don't (usually) slip into the whole "my writing is all metaphorical"

>mode and the Beats didn't that much either. It is about honesty through

>writing, and an honesty of soul.

One last note and my rant is over: Metaphor and symbolism, IMO, is going

to be the two deaths in the next literary movement. To get through the

media hype and into the crux of Information, we need to surpass these

hidden messages and talk to one another in a dense, information rich

manner than holds one true statement and gives the audience the

satisfaction of questioning all the other questions brought up by the

peice.

To take language out of the "I give you a message" format and into the

more interactive scene, the story must be left slightly unresolved so that

the audience is both enthralled to continue with any more work from the

artists and so that the audience feels they are imporant to the piece. As

a poem has many different meanings, the primary meaning should be

quite clear, for to communicate a message the message HAS to be

communicated, but all facets of the piece needent be answered.

This all relates to our current mindframe of mass information, but takes

it one step beyond by allowing the audience to be a part of the message

instead of feeding them the 6 o'clock news and telling them everything

they've seen is true.

In summary, I don't think that GenX has any literary value and looking for

GenX artists is looking for artists of a certain age, or for artists who

wrote

a book like a book called GenX, or for artists that sound like Tarantino,

and I don't necessarily believe that he IS in line with the GenX movement

as a whole, most people in GenX just think he's cool.

Nuff said.

..Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:50:58 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>So, The whole

>generation is dissatisfied with itself, so they all deny membership and in

>doing so show that they are members. Wow, maybe the media was right, and I

>just had never thought about it before.

> Love Always,

> eric Simpkins

I'm not sure where this fits into all of that, but the current issue of

Details

outlined how everything underground and GenX such as R.E.M., zines,

Kurt Cobain, alternative rock, indie lables, and so on, are now the

mainstream in above ground media.

Thus anyone who is now underground is dissatisfied with their original

work. One common thought around the TRUE fans of any music these

days is that you're UNCOOL if you like bands that sell a certain amount

of records. For example, I just recently got into Moby. Anyone who

listens to rave thinks Moby sucks BECASE he's sold a good amount

of records. REM still holds well, you're just uncool if you like any

music before.. say, 91.

hmmm.. Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:01:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: Define GenX Writing??? (fwd)

>I'd be interested in seeing that list (if your use of the past tense does

>not mean you no lnger have it).

I picked it up from the City Lights homepage.. if you need me to

hunt that down for you I can, but it is up for everyone to see if you

have Web access.

>I'd have sent this privately (ha ha) but I don't know what the hell

>kind of address you have Critter.

Hehe.. the God of AT&T have done it again!..

I'm starting to post it now and then with my sig.

...Critter (Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:03:58 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

Clerks comes damn close to what the media portrays us to be. Losers in low

paying jobs.

Love ALways,

eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:05:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: genX in Chicago, under the El

>yes, but only in general and only according to the broad scope of their

very

>heterogeneous vision...a synthesis cannot be composed but rather a broad

>definition of the particular characteristics

Well..................................... hmm, thinking here. I dunno if I

can agree.

If you throw a thousand monkeys in the air, those than land on their

heads will have something in common, and all the rest will be

different from those that landed on their heads BUT they're all

still monkeys...

Did that make any sense whatsoever???

In other words, individuals compose a mass. When like individuals

compose a mass, the mass will be somewhat hetero(gen[x])eous.

So if we assume the reverse, that GenX is heterogeneous, then we

can say that the individuals have something in common. These

traits will be broad, yes.. but that's the point of making a generality.

That is to say, we don't think exactly alike, but we do think along

some of the same lines. This is what I am interested in overall.

..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:12:07 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: White horses

>cf. the recurrent white horse image in _Natural Born Killers.

I'm a big fan of Tarantino and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..

Do you think.. I hate to say this, but do you think he has the

training or just the brains in general to make such an allusion???

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:34:38 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

Hello guys.

No one moderates this list and anyone can talk bout anything they want.

But I'd ask that you stop wasting message space on this as a courtesy to us.

I don't care about so called Generation X or Tarantino, at least not in the

confines of this group.

This is the Beat l list. You have greatly deviated from the subject matter.

Start or find a Generation X list is my request.

Like I said, you don't have to heed this request. But it is a request for

some courtesy.

Anyone else who shares my view please chime in.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:35:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: invader or ugly spirit

Hello folks,

In a message dated 95-12-05 11:32:31 EST, Tim Gallaher writes:

+++++++++++I would think that after all these years he could come up with a

better

excusefor killing his wife than "The Devil made me do it"+++++++++++++++++

I have read that WSB considers the act an Inexcusable Act. Perhaps the old

man isn't trying to excuse it. He apparently has believed in such

supernatural "guidings", if you will, since far before the WmTell incident.

Why is there so much fuss over this one event? Perhaps there should be

another list devoted to this topic alone.... the "crimes of Burroughs,

Kerouac, Ginsberg, Huncke, et cetera......". Is such a list justified? For

my money, the Carr-Kammerer incident holds more interest than Joan's death.

As ever,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:37:24 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

Folks,

I was lucky enough to pick up a copy of _The Stories of Denton Welch_ at the

best used bookstore in town this week. Denton Welch apparently was a

motivator for Burroughs because each encountered a horrible turning point in

his life, and after that point began to write productively.

The "chances" that you write of are of at least two breeds: one is

coincidence, another is guidance by some motivated hand toward fate. There

are more. I'm sure that some of you are familiar with it, but here's a look

at one peculiar incident.....

Welch was detained inexplicably one day, then was paralyzed later when a auto

drove over him and his bicycle. he (Welch) found the role of the

inexplicable (call it coincidence or CHANCE if you wish) in his accident to

be key. Had there been no delay, he presumably would have escaped injury.

His life was changed forever; he was forced to leave his painting career and

began to write. But only for a horrible accident.

Neither would Burroughs have continued the pursuit of writing, had the WmTell

incident not occurred. Was the event horrible, yes, inexcusable (in my

opinion) yes, but necessary for us to get to this point (with a dozen or more

Burroughs books to read)? Sadly, yes..........................

As ever,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:42:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>Clerks comes damn close to what the media portrays us to be. Losers in low

>paying jobs.

> Love ALways,

> eric Simpkins

And let's not forget the newest by the same director, this time in color!

Mallrats!

...<squeak> Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:07:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Beat Texts

Hey, it's an unmoderated list, folks! If you're not discussing the TEXTS, you'

ve no one to blame but yourselves.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:13:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Satori in Paris

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:04 -0800 from

<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:04 -0800 Timothy K. Gallaher said:

>At 06:35 PM 12/5/95 -0500, you wrote:

>>I admit I'm a little embarassed to be posing this question, but WHAT was

>>Jack's "satori" in this book? What was the great revelation?

>Jack forgot. But he remembered having one.

Maybe it was you can't go home again!

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:17:46 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: You can't win

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:28:19 -0500 from

<UnderToad2@AOL.COM>

You Can't Win is available in many libraries. Check Books In Print to see if t

he reprint edition is still available. If so, you can probably order it throug

h you local bookstore.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:23:53 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Mr. Congeniality" <SIMPKINS@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: Re: invader or ugly spirit

Since I am only half way through my new mail from Beat L and I did not start

from the begining of this topic, i do not know if anyone has mentioned this,

but WSB believed that that one incident led him to become a writer. He could

not have done so without this incident. That is why at the end of Naked Lunch

(the movie) the man at the border says "prove you are a writer" and Burroughs

turns around and shoots his wife and the man lets him through.

Love Always,

Eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:40:02 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: X marks the spot

>>Tori Amos is a beautiful folk singer (Personally I

like Alanis Morisette much better, but they both are very talented), still

she is not GenX because she's singing the spirited folk music that has

been around for a while, before GenX at any rate.>>

I Listed Tori for a few reasons, even though her *music* follows traditional

patterns, her lyrics do not always. I think the level of what many American

women feel that she hit in "Me And A Gun" was so intense. Or how about her

wonderings about God in "god?" I think yes, very classic issues, but issues

that are being dealt with in more and more open ways all the time, and she is

one of the poeple contributing to that. Especially women';s issues that

women are feeling more and more free to discuss. ("just because you can make

me come doesn't make you Jesus")

>>So Generation X has people that dress

funky and dance on drugs with wild hair and pierced everything. Who

in the hell cares???? That's been going on for centuries! Hell, where is

the Queer literary movement? There isn't one, even though their radical

lifestyles should warrent such a movement.>>

What?!?!?! Ummm....forgive me, but I wasn't aware that the common image of

Gen X is the raver image (could it be you imposing your lifestyle onto the

stereotypical gen x thing bc of something?) I thought it was much more that,

I thought it was more an idea that there are all these different cultural

groups but thgey're all just "slackers." What are you talking about a

"Queer literary movement?" Perhaps I am naive, but if you are talking about

*gay* writers, there are TONS of them, check your local Tower Records book

area for the "Homosexuals in Literature" section, your Barnes And Noble for

the same thing. Radical lifestyles? What? Which gender you decide to sleep

with isn't really a radical descion if you ask me, its a media issue and a

religion issue (read: political).

The reason I posed this question in the beginning was kinda an attempt to see

if we could list our own figures. That is to say, I don't think many people

who were around and hanging out with the Beats in the fifties thought that

they were any more special than anyone else in terms of being pop icons or

role models or whatever. I think it was more of a "I want to succeed at

doing this becuase I want to" and not "I want to succeed at this so I can be

a spokesmodel for an entire generation.''

And really, did all of their writing deal with genration issues? No. Why

should any other generation's then? I think that mebbe 15 years or so down

the line, it will be more apparent who the big ones of this generation were.

Rita

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:01:18 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: You can't win (fwd) (fwd) (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

One aspects of the Beats that has always interested me was the concept of

revolution, both in terms of subject matter, and textual forms. Specifically,

I am interested in how the beat poets helped to create revolutionary

poetry, but did so without a specific cultural reference. Consider, for

example, Gary Snyder's poetry which is clearly political, but in such a

markedly different way than Robert Lowel's. Both of them, of course, were

affected by the political upheavals during their lifetime, but their reactions

in terms of their art are so different. ("Earth House Hold vs. "For the Union

Dead" for example...) I would be interested in hearing some responses to this,

particularly by someone who knows a bit more about the context of the "poetry

wars" ongoing during this period...Any takers?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recently read an interesting piece written by Diana Trilling (wife of

Lionel - teacher at Columbia of Ginsberg) in which a reading of Corso

and Ginsberg is described. She and several other Columbia wives went to

a reading at Columbia in the early sixties. She had had problems with

Ginsberg years before when he kept turning to Lionel every time he was

arrested or thrown out of Clumbia but went to see him read anyway.

Anyway, after actually seeing him and some other Beats read, she went home

where Lionel and several of the "academic" poets were gathered, among them

Auden. They greeted her, in proper manner - stand when a woman enters

the room etc. - and after she mentioned that she saw some shred of "good"

in the reading was told by Auden that he was ashamed of her.

The whole scene, the men being "polite" to Mrs. Trilling, the fact that

they were contemptous of anyone who was moved by Ginsberg etc is

indicative of the juxtaposition between the teo poetic worlds that

existed and that the Beats were trying to break down. The Poertry War

mentioned in the post. The Beats' greatest achievement is not that

they launched the hippi's or any other counter-cultural movement, but

that they succeeded, mainly through the post WWII education (GI Bill)

opportunities , in breaking poetry out of the Ivory Tower inhabited by

Auden et al. and bringing it back to the average Joe in the coffeehouses

and such.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:54:35 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: BONNIE HOWARD <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject: The Found Generation

Dan Barth asked about "the Found generation..." Is there one? And if so, who

are they?

This probably sounds like old stuff for most of you, but I'm new at this. If

"postmodernism" or Beat writing includes the themes/issues of alienation and

disintegration, then I see many of the post-postmodernist writers as moving

toward finding a place for themselves and their characters, and re-integrating.

I'm going to have to limit my examples of this to contemporary Native American

fiction, though, as that is mostly what I read :-) In novels by Momaday, Silko,

and Erdrich (as well as many others, my new favorite being Sherman Alexie), we

see characters who have traditionally felt alienated or displaced seeking

a place for themselves, and ending up back where they began (geographically, at

least, by going home to the Rez or traditional homelands). But they have to

leave first to find themselves.

Many of these characters follow the Beat ethos (if there is such a thing) of

"going on the road," because they believe in that (now that I think of it, it

may be more Emersonian than Beat, but they're connected, right?). They believe

that identity cannot be found at home. But it always takes coming home again to

really re-integrate and become whole. They do end up becoming Found, in that

sense. They found a place to belong, they found themselves.

I cannot even pretend to know what Ginsberg meant when he said that a future

generation would be a Found Generation. But in my estimation, these American

Indian writers are working toward being found, and in many cases have

succeeded. Sorry for the long babble here--maybe I'd better go *find* some

coffee!

Bonnie Howard

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:53:31 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul Rice <PAULR@COASTAL.EDU>

Organization: Coastal Carolina University

Subject: Re: White horses

These things well up from inside. Archetypes. But I think the horse

was Oliver Stone's and I think he has the training to make such

connection. Also Q.T. has seen every movie in the world, so he must

have seen _The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse_, if the image was

his.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:40:34 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: You can't win (fwd) (fwd) (fwd)

In-Reply-To: <951206.231436.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:

> mentioned in the post. The Beats' greatest achievement is not that

> they launched the hippi's or any other counter-cultural movement, but

> that they succeeded, mainly through the post WWII education (GI Bill)

> opportunities , in breaking poetry out of the Ivory Tower inhabited by

> Auden et al. and bringing it back to the average Joe in the coffeehouses

> and such.

When was poetry with that average Joe? If you have sometime in mind, can

you make some direct link-- stylistically, aesthetically-- with Beat

poetry?

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:31:41 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: White horses

In-Reply-To: <30C63100@sdcwinb.daytonoh.attgis.com>

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

> I'm a big fan of Tarantino and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..

> Do you think.. I hate to say this, but do you think he has the

> training or just the brains in general to make such an allusion???

> ...Critter

To drop a name: I knew QT when he was at Video Archives-- and yes, he's a

bit manic, perhaps, but definitely the brains and the knowledge-- if not

from books, then from all the films the guy's seen-- he knows them ALL.

Yrs. &c.

Steven Cahn

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:07:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: fellaheen

Folks,

Next is my next question. that comes next. The notion and role of the

FELLAHEEN, or fellahin, arises commonly in Burroughs' fiction. Supposedly it

was partly planted in his mind by a reading of Oswald Spengler's _Decline of

the West_ -- a book which he supposedly wanted the others, Jack, Allan, etc.

to read, but he gave them the book and apparently, from the best I can tell,

they did not.

I have not read all of Decline of the West, just parts, and I have tried to

zero in on Spengler's actual usage of the term and narrowest discussion of

it. The book is huge, in fact, the only edition that I've been able to find

is "abridged", and I dont' see that Spengler actually spent much time on 'the

fellahin'.

Has anyone else on the list tried to follow this one up?

I would appreciate your thoughts on this, the fellahin.

Yours,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:07:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: The Miller name

Folks,

to answer the question of whether or not I am related to the William Miller

of the Millerites, 1850's, etc. :::

I think not.

I may be related to Henry Miller, of Brooklyn, my only vague data being that

HM's middle name was Valentine, which is the same as my legal father's first

name, and dear ol' dad is from Brooklyn too.

I'm also related to Burroughs, on his mother's side. (the Lees)

thanks to Tim Gallaher, Blaine Allan, Dan Barth, and all of you who provided

information on _You Can't Win_ by Jack Black, a text which influenced

Burroughs. I will try to get my hands on the book.

As ever,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:00:27 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

Comments: To: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

> Date sent: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:37:24 -0500

> Send reply to: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

> Subject: Re: Chances and Choices

William Miller wrote:

> Neither would Burroughs have continued the pursuit of writing, had the WmTell

> incident not occurred. Was the event horrible, yes, inexcusable (in my

> opinion) yes, but necessary for us to get to this point (with a dozen or more

> Burroughs books to read)? Sadly, yes.......................

* *

The incident may have changed WSB's life, but I don't think anyone

can say he wouldn't have "continued the pursuit of writing" had this

not occurred. This thing motivated him to move PHYSICALLY, and

precipitated his subsequent rootlessness, but he was already writing:

those routines for which he is hilariously famous began earlier with

Kells Elvins, his boyhood buddy. I just can't see how this incident,

except peripherally, perhaps, necessitated his writing.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 01:15:49 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: up and down and Nietzsche bound

In-Reply-To: <01HYHJ00A882HTVRDE@SONOMA.EDU>

plaid is cool and nihilism is the new drugstore religion, man...

On Wed, 06 Dec 1995 12:17:32 -0700 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>I would just like to say that I find it amusing that one of the few definitions

>or boundries that all "gen. x'ers" fall into is the age limit, not the social

>or ecvonomic class, not the political beliefs, just during what period in time

>where they born. However, one of the characteristics attributed to them was a

>dissatisfaction with mainstream society. Obviously, this can not be true of all

>"gen. x'ers" or else it would be a giant paradox. If everyone were to be

>with mainstream society, and in their generation, mainstream society was that

>everyone was dissatisfied with mainstream society, then that would force

>everyone into the real mainstream society of normalcy and picket-fences and

>Dad as a provider and Mom as a house wife. But, they were dissatisfied with

>mainstream society (granted, this is not mainstream society, and from what I

>hear, it never was, TV just made it that way, but I wasn't around so I really

>don't know) but it is the ideals of mainstream society. So, The whole

>generation is dissatisfied with itself, so they all deny membership and in

>doing so show that they are members. Wow, maybe the media was right, and I

>just had never thought about it before.

> Love Always,

> eric Simpkins

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:40:25 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: The Whitney

To avoid flaming - I have not been to the exhibit YET, all I am

saying is second hand!

I was told that in the Whitney exhibit - which is on Beat artists- they

are displaying a Pollock among other questonable pieces. How can they

include him in a Beat exhibit?

I realize that it is easy to make a cursory connection between Pollock

and some Beats under the rubric of spontaneous creation of art,

but I don't think that is acceptable. They apparently stick many

artists in there regardless of true affiliation with the Beats.

I would think it is easy to make the connection of visual spontaneity

between Pollock and the New York school of poets (i.e. Frank O'Hara)

but can this link include the aural spontaneity of Beat poets like

Kerouac or Ginsberg? Just because _Howl_ was composed in two sittings

or OTR was written straight through does not mean there is and artistic

link in their theoretical ideas.

I believe Molly said she is an art history student - do you have anything

about the San Francisco school or the Abstract Expressionsits that may

be able to defend the curator's inclusion of these "non-Beats" in

a Beat exhibit?

Any help?

Peter

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:17:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Ritter, Chris D" <rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>

Subject: Postmodern? Poem

As Mr. Serling always said: "Submitted for your approval..."

Nothing God On Television

-------------------------

i found -a little god-

o n theside

o f(f) theroad,

d u s t e d I off &

s h u f f l e d T tween 2 books

[1.) dharma bums 2.) basketball diaries]

[burn?ing

bakE?ing

i left it in the SUN

singEing

sear?ing]

all day

atop the tv with

gEraLdoscreaming

aboutanotherfoun

dabort -ion

for

time

until i decided it was time for raisinettes and tea.

for

time

it looked at me with (1..2..3..) weary eyes,

thanked me for the ignorance and disappeared

(leaving behind a $2.00 voucher for Walmart)

---

and to quote someone whose name escapes me: "You decide!"

...Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:16:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan

KEEPING THE LIST FREE FROM ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE BEAT TEXTS

>>>>>>>Hello guys.

No one moderates this list and anyone can talk bout anything they want.

But I'd ask that you stop wasting message space on this as a courtesy to us.

I don't care about so called Generation X or Tarantino, at least not in the

confines of this group.

This is the Beat l list. You have greatly deviated from the subject matter.

Start or find a Generation X list is my request.

Like I said, you don't have to heed this request. But it is a request for

some courtesy.>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>Hey, it's an unmoderated list, folks! If you're not discussing

the TEXTS, you'

ve no one to blame but yourselves.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

True, true, true, both of you. But I gotta agree with Bill more on this one.

If you can't stand talking about Genreation X, then start something more

interesting.

Maybe as an idea for not cluttering mailboxes, we can read *all* the postings

before we send off letters with more than one subject in them at once,

especially if they are relkated in any way.

I see nothing wrong with drawing parrallels between the Beats and The Nows.

WHITE HORSES

>>I'm a big fan of Tarantino and all, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut..

Do you think.. I hate to say this, but do you think he has the

training or just the brains in general to make such an allusion???

...Critter>>>

Well, Critter, I don't think it matters that much, but yes, I do think he has

the brains to make that allusion and he did. Remmeber it was invaded by

Stone anyhow.

CRITTER AGAIN, THIS TIME JIVING WITH ME

>>>>>Well..................................... hmm, thinking here. I dunno if

can agree.

If you throw a thousand monkeys in the air, those than land on their

heads will have something in common, and all the rest will be

different from those that landed on their heads BUT they're all

still monkeys...

Did that make any sense whatsoever???

In other words, individuals compose a mass. When like individuals

compose a mass, the mass will be somewhat hetero(gen[x])eous.

So if we assume the reverse, that GenX is heterogeneous, then we

can say that the individuals have something in common. These

traits will be broad, yes.. but that's the point of making a generality.

That is to say, we don't think exactly alike, but we do think along

some of the same lines>>>>>

Right on. We cannot be lumped into any one category much further than human.

Heaven knows we can't even try to label people as races anymore. No-one

wants to be assigned an age. People don't think it is fair to judge on

money. Or on eductation. It'll be hard to find two Republicans that have

the same views. (or democrats or libertarians or so on, just an ex.)

The Beats dealt with a different time period, but theyw ere still human, and

weren't we talking before about renouncing ties to that generation to move on

and not be tied down to that label and style of thinking?

JOAN AND THE MOVIE VERSION

>>>>>>WSB believed that that one incident led him to become a writer. He

could

not have done so without this incident. That is why at the end of Naked Lunch

(the movie) the man at the border says "prove you are a writer" and Burroughs

turns around and shoots his wife and the man lets him through.>>>> (eric)

Yep, I think the movie worked bc it was so much more about the psychology of

Naked Lunch than trying to turn Burroughs' words into pictures. The way the

movie portrayed it though, I think made it seem as if he was willing to

sacrifice Joan to be the writer he became. I don't know if it was such a

fair interpretation, but it definately got across the message that that was

Burroughs' reason.

Looking at the movie with a better understanding of what transpired there, I

see how it shows Burroughs as more of a man who had to drive across the

border. He probably had to shoot his wife to became what he did become. And

that is depressing in many ways, and Burroughs lived under that guilt (mebbe

he still does....) for a long time.

Rita

(BTW-is anyone else so intigued by Burroughs lineage? not only the adding

machine but the robert e. lee thing also. i am amazed at the popular

influence this family has had)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:42:03 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Carr-Kammerer, etc.

Yes, William, me too. This incident is extremely interesting as it was

reported as an "honor" slaying in the contemporary press: Carr was in some

way given the "right" to have killed Kammerer because Kammerer wanted to

sleep with him (yes, Kam. was persistent, dogged Carr, and they were drunk --

but to use the word "honor" to describe a murder?) Also, here's a friend of

two of the century's most famous queers, Burroughs and Ginsberg, killing

someone based on the very notions of sexual propriety the "Beats" (and I'm

not convinced, incidentally, that the Beat generation is any less a media

creation than Gen-X; I once heard Creeley say that this so-called generation

was really only 4 guys. Their texts resemble one anothers, and they were all

friends, but Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac and Cassady had many differences as

well: Ginsberg and Cassady fit into so-called "hippie" culture; Kerouac and

Burroughs remained aloof, even critical of it, in K's case). In any case,

does anyone know of a good source for reading about the Carr-Kammerer

situation? _Jack's Book_ is a text that has some stuff on it, but I'd like

to find out more.

As to the sympathy shown Carr: Malcolm Little (later "X") served 6 years for

burglary around the same time as Carr served 4 for murder. Race and class

considerations obviously also play into this, but so too I think does the

homophobic "if some queer would have done that to me, I'd show him a thing or

two" bashing mentality.

I also have read somewhere that the conditions of Carr's parole led Jack to

keep him out of his books (perhaps to disguise associations Carr wasn't

supposed to have maintained with a "dangerous" group). Does anyone know

specifics about what restrictions were placed on Carr upon his parole?

On other subjects recently discussed, my proverbial two Lincolns:

- Her name was Jane Vollmer Adams Burroughs -- the woman accidentally and

stupidly killed by Bill (though I give credence to Burroughs' expiation over

this act -- it's not something he's proud of). I don't think anyone has

mentioned her name, which is in some way reflective of the attitudes toward

women generally conveyed by these writers. Can anyone honestly read OTR

these days and not be appalled by its sexism? When I've taught this book, my

students are quick to leap on this aspect.

- I wrote another long, "academic" response to the pomo vs. mo debate, then

decided to just keep it in my files unsent. If an unmoderated list is to be

successful and not waste a lot of everybody's time along the way there should

be some self-censoring. The Gen-X business is of little interest to me

personally; I find it similar to attending a tupperware party and being

harangued by an Amway salesperson -- yes, these are nice products, but what

about the leftovers I have at home decaying in my fridge? I desire a certain

product here, else I wouldn't have shown up.

- I object to the characterization made by one contributor that mentioning

authors and books is in some way disguising who we really are. When I, for

instance, brought up Olson in the thread on chance it wasn't because I was

interested in flaunting my knowledge or "name-dropping." It's because Olson

writes perceptively on this issue and was pertinent to the discussion: he

says things better than I could, and I can't discuss the issue without

reference to him. I think that some answers to the question posed lie there,

and I'm not doing it to get tenure or pats on the back. This isn't lack of

imagination, evasion, vanity, etc. -- it's because books (which we are

discussing, right?) exist in conversation with other books. Books saved me

from reliving the miserable dead lives of those I grew up with that didn't

discover what I did. And, need I repeat, they are what brings us together

here. It seems to me that when we hear "don't tell us about what you've

read, tell us about what you feel," there's a great danger of sinking into an

encounter-group dynamic, which I'd really like to avoid. That isn't to say I

desire more pure academicism, just reponsibility to others on the list who

patiently download all this stuff every day (some paying for it) and do so

because of a stated interest in the Beats. "Backchannel" posts (I really

like that word -- posts to individuals, not to the list itself) provide an

opportunity for people to work out threads which have gone beyond the stated

topic of the list.

- I rant, but do appreciate what you all have to offer, else I'd have been

long gone.

Ted Pelton

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:47:56 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: fellaheen

>Folks,

>Next is my next question. that comes next. The notion and role of the

>FELLAHEEN, ...

I have never heard that Kerouac never read the book. I always heard he had

read it and it was one of the many books Burroughs turned him on to. I

never heard of Burroughs using the term fellaheen in his writings (though

I'm not so familiar with his) but Kerouac used the term many times. An

example of fellaheen as used by kerouac would be the rural mexican citizens

he encountered in his trips to mexico.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:45:19 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: fellaheen

Comments: To: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

I recollect the fellaheen tale you mention, that Burroughs was the

Spenglerian in the group (still is, from what we read) and attempted

to interest the boys in its historicity etc.

But in my mind, now, what I think of when I hear the word, has to do

more with JK's usage of it, possibly epitomized by the Mexican Girl

segment from OTR. That he was using "fellaheen" symbolically, with

all its connotations of their being "salt of the earth", or the

backbone of humanity. I think that, though that may fit (at least to

a point) the dictionary's definition of fellaheen, I'm not sure how

it contrasts or conflicts with Spengler's use of it. JK, I think,

appropriated the term for his own uses.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:55:23 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan

>True, true, true, both of you. But I gotta agree with Bill more on this one.

> If you can't stand talking about Genreation X, then start something more

>interesting.

OK. That test pattern on TV what about it? Pretty cool huh?

How long does iut take for your butter to melt? How much faster does it

melt per degree of temprature increase?

Who do you think is the best accountant?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:05:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan

Comments: To: "Rita T. Friedman" <NekkidLnch@AOL.COM>

> > JOAN AND THE MOVIE VERSION

> >>>>>>WSB believed that that one incident led him to become a writer. He

> could

> not have done so without this incident. That is why at the end of Naked Lunch

> (the movie) the man at the border says "prove you are a writer" and Burroughs

> turns around and shoots his wife and the man lets him through.>>>> (eric)

> Yep, I think the movie worked bc it was so much more about the psychology of

> Naked Lunch than trying to turn Burroughs' words into pictures. The way the

> movie portrayed it though, I think made it seem as if he was willing to

> sacrifice Joan to be the writer he became. I don't know if it was such a

> fair interpretation, but it definately got across the message that that was

> Burroughs' reason.

> Looking at the movie with a better understanding of what transpired there, I

> see how it shows Burroughs as more of a man who had to drive across the

> border. He probably had to shoot his wife to became what he did

become.

* *

Does anyone have anything more than that incident in the movie to

suggest that manslaughter made a writer out of WSB? I don't recall

that NAKED LUNCH (the book) made this point.

The Cronenberg thing was a MOVIE. There are a lot of other

biographical references that'll make you nod in recognition of

factual material that you won't find in the book but will see in the

movie. And if Burroughs didn't pen the screenplay, then we're taking

somebody else's word (who's probably using artistic license to

dramatize a point) and relating it as if it were the gospel truth.

Buyer beware.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 19:32:16 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "bs@AUC" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Burroughs on Cronenberg's 'Naked Lunch' movie

CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU> wrote:

>Does anyone have anything more than that incident in the movie to

>suggest that manslaughter made a writer out of WSB? I don't recall

>that NAKED LUNCH (the book) made this point.

>The Cronenberg thing was a MOVIE. There are a lot of other

>biographical references that'll make you nod in recognition of

>factual material that you won't find in the book but will see in the

>movie. And if Burroughs didn't pen the screenplay, then we're taking

>somebody else's word (who's probably using artistic license to

>dramatize a point) and relating it as if it were the gospel truth.

>Buyer beware.

Burroughs writes about this:

"I was dismayed naturally, to see the scenes that David (Cronenberg) wrote

in which "Bill Lee" shoots his wife "Joan"; but on reflection, I feel that

the scenes in his script are so different from the tragic and painful

episodes in my own life from which he drew his inspiration that no

intelligent person can mistake the movie for a factual account"

- William S. Burroughs: "Introduction", p. 14, in "Everything Is

Permitted: The Making of 'Naked Lunch'", Grafton Books, 1992

Regards,

bs@AUC

Dept. of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:27:14 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris Bryan <Christopher_Bryan@BAYLOR.EDU>

Subject: Tastes Great, Less Filling

In-Reply-To: <951207080703_127323747@mail06.mail.aol.com>

yes, but does your family own a famous brewery...?

On Thu, 07 Dec 1995 08:07:03 -0500 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat

Generation List) wrote:

>Folks,

>to answer the question of whether or not I am related to the William Miller

>of the Millerites, 1850's, etc. :::

>I think not.

>I may be related to Henry Miller, of Brooklyn, my only vague data being that

>HM's middle name was Valentine, which is the same as my legal father's first

>name, and dear ol' dad is from Brooklyn too.

>I'm also related to Burroughs, on his mother's side. (the Lees)

>thanks to Tim Gallaher, Blaine Allan, Dan Barth, and all of you who provided

>information on _You Can't Win_ by Jack Black, a text which influenced

>Burroughs. I will try to get my hands on the book.

>As ever,

>William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:42:15 -0500