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From: "Kirsten A. Hirsch"
<Kirsten=A.=Hirsch%Commons%USC@COMNET.USC.VCU.EDU>
Anybody
ever been removed from the list for no reason? Just happened to me
and I
am wondering why and if it has happened to anyone else.
-Kirsten
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:04:12 EST
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: fellaheen
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:07:06 -0500
from <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>
Jack
and Allen did read Spengler. I think
Jack was more taken with it
than
Ginsberg. Like everything else,
however, Kerouac took what he
wanted
and left the rest.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:22:19 EST
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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: fellaheen
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:45:19 EST from
<CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>
On Thu,
7 Dec 1995 12:45:19 EST CLAY VAUGHAN said:
>I
recollect the fellaheen tale you mention, that Burroughs was the
>Spenglerian
in the group (still is, from what we read) and attempted
>to
interest the boys in its historicity etc.
>
>But
in my mind, now, what I think of when I hear the word, has to do
>more
with JK's usage of it, possibly epitomized by the Mexican Girl
>segment
from OTR. That he was using "fellaheen" symbolically, with
>all
its connotations of their being "salt of the earth", or the
>backbone
of humanity. I think that, though that may fit (at least to
>a
point) the dictionary's definition of fellaheen, I'm not sure how
>it
contrasts or conflicts with Spengler's use of it. JK, I think,
>appropriated
the term for his own uses.
Yes, he
did. Spengler doesn't use the term the
way Kerouac does.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:24:26 -0500
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From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>
Subject: Why GenX?
Someone
(I forgot your name, sorry) said that he has no interest in this GenX
conversation,
as it has nothing to do with The Beats. That's his feeling, but
many
sources have made the connection between GenX & the Beats, the most
notable
one I can think of being the Jack Kerouac School for Disembodied
poets
in which Allen Ginsberg is very involved. Bill made a good point - this
is our
list - and if we're dissatisfied with
it, we need to take
responsibility
instead of blaming it on others.
By some
genetic lottery, I'm technically considered GenX (i'm 28). So is a 18
year
old. To give you an idea of how silly
this is: I used to sort of work
with
advertising (gasp!) and one entire demographic group is the 18-49 year
olds.
Like 18 year olds and 49 year olds are soooo similar.
Critter
asked whether Tarentino actually had the smarts to understand the
imagery
of the white horse - you know, I used to have this vision of QT too
(like
all of the clever aspects of his movies were accidents?), then I saw
him on
Charlie Rose. This guy is smart! He defiinately knows his stuff. He
doesn't
just make movies, he lives them. He knows more about films than most
directors
in Hollywood, I would guess. I don't know whether he's well read,
but
films are an excellent source of cultural history of the 20th century,
especially
when you look at Wells & Felini & such. But enough of that.
I was
the one that brought Tarentino's name to the list. And I don't know
what he
has to do with GenX. I can only explain his appeal (Above & beyond
being
hip) like this: Never in my life could I stand to watch a movie with
violence
in it. Then I started seeing his movies, and somehow I can watch
them
(By the way, Rita, I've seen Pulp Fiction 3-4 times).. The difference
is,
this violence is portrayed with reality - it's not just some Arnold S.
movie
with people getting blasted everywhere and no blood, no pain. When Tim
Roth's
character gets shot in R.Dogs, he is in pain and he's scared. This was
terrible
to watch in one way, but it was real. I felt like QT wasn't
insulting
my intelligence and was giving me the benefit of the doubt that I
could
handle reality. How many artists do that at all? (ie: Happy endings).
The
main reason I brought up QT was to make the point that there are several
other
mediums (media?) that define GenX's expression. Popular music & film &
computer-related
media are are powerful means of reaching people now,
especially
GenX. I had also thought of listing Billy Corgan on this list, but
was
afraid of spawning a Kurt Cobain conversation, and hasn't that been done
enough
already?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:28:23 -0500
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From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: X marks the spot
>I
think yes, very classic issues, but issues
>that
are being dealt with in more and more open ways all the time, and she
is
>one
of the poeple contributing to that.
Especially women';s issues that
>women
are feeling more and more free to discuss.
("just because you can
make
>me
come doesn't make you Jesus")
Yes, I
agree that she is WONDERFUL. I think the point where our
communication
is
breaking up is trying to say what a GenXer is.. if it's restricted to
age,
then
yes,
she's a GenXer (I think.. hmmm..) if it's restricted to ideals, than
she's
not
fitting
the stereotype very well by making all that cash.
As your
next section shows:
>What?!?!?! Ummm....forgive me, but I wasn't aware that
the common image of
>Gen
X is the raver image
-and-
>What
are you talking about a
>"Queer
literary movement?" Perhaps I am
naive, but if you are talking
about
>*gay*
writers, there are TONS of them, check your local Tower Records book
>area
for the "Homosexuals in Literature" section, your Barnes And Noble
for
>the
same thing.
We're on a COMPLETELY different wavelength. If a
gay poet writes about
flowers,
does that make that poet out to be a Out With Pride poet? or just a
poet
writing about flowers? The latter, I'd presume. (And when I say radical
I mean
that heterosexuality is certainly the accepted bible belt philosophy
in
America, not homosexuality.
Back to
the issue of writers in a movement, we must first come to an
understanding
of what
GenX is... Paying close attention to media and film, GenX does still
mean
the
slacker stereotype, but modern youth are seen as "Digitized" or
"OnLine"
ravers
that care more about computers and hacking than getting good grades
in
sophomore math from film's vantage. It all depends on where your focus
lies.
I'll
call myself "in the wrong" for our purposes and say that I was
searching
for a
GenX movement in literature. Looking beyond age, beyond "slack or
rave",
looking more towards the ideals of what I know to be modern youth
and
finding how this would affect such known GenX writers such as Tarantino
and
Coupland (if they are indeed "true" GenX writers). In other words,
can
we call
a 19 yr old writing poems about butterflies a "true" GenX writer?
Same
goes for the Beats. I don't think that you could call Mr. X from that
Generation
a Beat writer when he too is writing ONLY about butterflies.
It
takes the spirit of Beat in the writing to call yourself Beat. That is
what
I'm
saying is required of GenX writers..
>Rita
..Critter
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:44:05 -0500
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From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: The Found Generation
>This
probably sounds like old stuff for most of you, but I'm new at this.
If
>"postmodernism"
or Beat writing includes the themes/issues of alienation
and
>disintegration,
then I see many of the post-postmodernist writers as moving
>toward
finding a place for themselves and their characters, and
re-integrating.
See, I
believe that the Beats are more Modern than Postmodern. Postmodernism
deals
with communication through accepted symbology, much like news
reports
horrors of blood and riots to us, we listen w/o question and accept
this
information. Postmodernism also attempts to reconstruct accepted forms
and
conventions but also classical ideals, straying away from building or
revisioning
older works, thus the deconstructionist attitude towards
literature.
It
seems that the Beats did not work towards this end, which is why we can
talk so
much of Buddhism and so on. Think of cummings and his war against
conventional
form. Discussing what he based his form upon would be
impossible
if you're searching for something previously attempted.
>I
cannot even pretend to know what Ginsberg meant when he said that a
future
>generation
would be a Found Generation.
As for
a Found Generation, much of GenX (as I think it's been noted here) is
based
upon a slew of other Generations.. something like art from found
objects,
a
generation from Found Generations. Dunno.. that's just a thought..
>Bonnie
Howard
..Critter
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:58:59 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: X marks the spot
>Hello
guys.
>
>No
one moderates this list and anyone can talk bout anything they want.
>
>But
I'd ask that you stop wasting message space on this as a courtesy to
us.
Even
though I only heard one chime, I will say that this is somewhat off
topic.
I don't mind discussing it, and will answer back any questions
instead
of
ignoring someone, but I will add my chime to the question.
If
anyone is interested, I'm working on starting a mailing list discussing
the
major "radical" literary revolutions such as Dada, surrealism, pomo,
modernism,
and even GenX, as well as trying to find the next literary
revolution.
This is also unmoderated and will include artist sharing
examples
as well as ideas and discussions.
If
anyone is interested, this will not only be a good place to take this
conversation,
but I am always interested in a little feedback and some
ideas
before I get the mailing list underway.
...Critter
(Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:33:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Kirsten
asked about being removed from the list without notice. This will happ
en if,
for any reason, your mail is reported as being "undeliverable." This ha
ppens
for several reasons, often because someone's system fails, usually on the
weekends
I notice. If the listowner did not
delete you, his mailbox would fill
with repeated
mail that "bounces back" from your address. No notice is sent be
cause
that notice would be "undeliverable" and simply "bounce
back" to the list
owners
mailbox as well. If you find yourself
off the list, simply resubscribe.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:18:36 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Why GenX? (fwd)
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
Someone
(I forgot your name, sorry) said that he has no interest in this GenX
conversation,
as it has nothing to do with The Beats. That's his feeling, but
many
sources have made the connection between GenX & the Beats, the most
notable
one I can think of being the Jack Kerouac School for Disembodied
poets
in which Allen Ginsberg is very involved.
I had also thought of listing Billy Corgan on this list,
but
was
afraid of spawning a Kurt Cobain conversation, and hasn't that been done
enough
already?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Along
the lines of your legitimacy for Gen X on this list and your reference
to
Cobain --- If William Burroughs thought
enough about that Generation
and
that singer to record spoken word albums with him, I am not
about
to take the mantle on MY shoulders to tell Burroughs that he is
wrong
and that there is nothing of merit in making that connection.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:22:37 EST
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From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Texts/white horses/monkeys/Joan
(fwd)
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
> If
you can't stand talking about Genreation X, then start something more
>interesting.
OK. That test pattern on TV what about it? Pretty cool huh?
How long
does iut take for your butter to melt?
How much faster does it
melt
per degree of temprature increase?
Who do
you think is the best accountant?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
imagine this is supposed to be funny, but instead I find it rather sad
considering
that the Beat related conversation on here revolves around
the
name of JK's cat and ever time someone attempted to start a conversation
about
something involving a literary (oh my did the Beats write?) topic
it is
ignored by the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:35:21 EST
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From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Re: You can't win (fwd) (fwd) (fwd)
(fwd)
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
On Wed,
6 Dec 1995, Peter McGahey wrote:
>
mentioned in the post. The Beats'
greatest achievement is not that
>
they launched the hippi's or any other counter-cultural movement, but
>
that they succeeded, mainly through the post WWII education (GI Bill)
>
opportunities , in breaking poetry out of the Ivory Tower inhabited by
>
Auden et al. and bringing it back to the average Joe in the coffeehouses
>
and such.
>
When
was poetry with that average Joe? If
you have sometime in mind, can
you
make some direct link-- stylistically, aesthetically-- with Beat
poetry?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
wasn't really aiming at the style etc of the Beats - what I was aiming at
was the
notion that up until the latter half of the 19th century,
literature
was not an accepted area within the realm of academics. It
wasn't
until the post- and pre- WWI period that the likes of Eliot and
Pound
turned poetry in a exteremly difficult and elite genre. It was no
longer
accessible nor intended to be - to the average person or student.
Beat
poets took poetry out of the academy which is why the likes of
Auden
(in D Trillings' piece) found them to be an unacceptable group
of
pseudo-artists. I don;t know how many
of you are active or into
the
current literary academic scene, but the Beats still have a long
way to
go until they are accepted into the literary canon (don't flame
me for
referring to it). To date, Ginsberg is
the only Beat to be
anthologized
in any accepted college texts like the Norton's.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:43:38 EST
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From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Herbert Hunke at UConn
First
off - you have not seen anything of value in your life until
you've
sat in on a personal conversation between Ann Charters and a
real
live Beat - the original Times Square Hipster to boot!
Anyway,
something which all of you ought to appreciate as it is of relevance
to a
Beat topic which someone has deemed acceptable to this list (ha ha)
is that
we were able to turn Hunke's thoughts over to the intended
audience
that the Beats were attempting to address with their work.
At
first he joking mentioned the world at large, but Charters was
able to
direct him towards academia itself (read here 1950's Ivory Tower
academics
like Auden and those who kicked Ginsberg out of Colunbia for
pyschiatric
evaluation). Hunke stated that those
who needed to take a
second
look at what the Beats were saying never did.
He expressed
concern
over not having pursued his education to the level that he
needed
in order to feel comfortable addressing the academy. All this is
meant
to back up my earlier claim that the Beats were clearly attempting
to
bring poetry out of the academy which was ignoring them.
I hate
to make another plea to authority, but I am not about to tell
Hunke
he was wrong and that the Beats weren't trying to do what he said.
On the
whole - an excellent reading. For a man
of such age and
health,
I was very impressed. If you have any
opportunity to see
him
anytime soon - do it.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:00:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: William Miller
<KenofWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Chances and Choices
Hello
again folks,
In a
message dated 95-12-07 08:02:16 EST, Clay Vaughn writes:
++++The
incident may have changed WSB's life, but I don't think anyone
can say
he wouldn't have "continued the pursuit of writing" had this
not
occurred. This thing motivated him to move PHYSICALLY, and
precipitated
his subsequent rootlessness, but he was already writing:
those
routines for which he is hilariously famous began earlier with
Kells
Elvins, his boyhood buddy. I just can't see how this incident,
except
peripherally, perhaps, necessitated his writing.++++++
on one
account I was misleading. Yes, he was
already writing. "And the
Hippos
were boiled in their tanks" (anyone know where to get that one?) is
one
example of this. However, his writing
changed a great deal. I should
not
have said "not continued the pursuit of writing" but rather
"changed his
writing" AND "gave the man a newer, new urgency
toward his writing I refer
us to a
quote from WSB in _Literary Outlaw_....
"I
am forced to the appalling conclusion that I would never have become a
writer
but for Joan's death, and to a realization of th extent to which this
event
has motivated and formulated my writing.
I live with the constant
threat
of possession, and a constant need to escape from possession, from
Control. So the death of Joan brought me in contact
with the invader, the
Ugly
Spirit, and maneuvered me into a lifelong struggle, in which I have had
no
choice except to write my way out."
On the
second count, you are dead wrong.
Burroughs was wandering long before
Joan's
death. Chicago, New York, Louisiana,
Texas, Mexico... It was more
common
in those days for a man of his social standing to take a solid job
right
out of college, rather than pick up and move all over the country,
taking
unusual jobs (exterminator) or no jobs at all. His state was already
"rootlessness"
before that event.
Cheese
and rice, I've been suckered into this discussion. And I was the one
clamoring
about desire to actually discuss the texts.
with
regret,
William
Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:33:28 -0500
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From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Why GenX?
>Critter
asked whether Tarentino actually had the smarts to understand the
>imagery
of the white horse - you know, I used to have this vision of QT too
>(like
all of the clever aspects of his movies were accidents?), then I saw
>him
on Charlie Rose. This guy is smart!
I was
just commenting on that fact that what I've seen of him he didn't seem
to be
the BRIGHTEST guy in the world. You're right, all those clever aspects
of his
films couldn't have been accidents. I was thinking that all the nifty
character
allusions from one film to the next was.. well, I just won't say
because
I really do love the guy. I own all of his films and have seen
RD and
TR more times than you can shake a stick at. I'd really like to
see him
in a better light, like on the Charlie Rose show, whatever that
is.
..Critter
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 04:53:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>
Subject: A turn for the worse....
I'm
starting to care less about WHAT we talk about and am getting concerned
with
HOW we talk about it. Within the last week, a decidedly hostile,
defensive
and NOT respectful attitude has crept onto this list. I thought
this
was a place we could express our opinions without being made fun of or
criticized
or censored. That's changed.
Critter,
tell me more about the list you're thinking of starting. I'm
interested
if it's a place where people aren't going to get flamed for not
obeying
rules they had nothing to do with setting. (By the way, Charlie Rose
is a
very good serious no-frills talk show on PBS).
Ben,
you missed the point of "Being Mindful." I'm not going to explain it,
because
I don't feel like defending my thought process only to open myself up
to
non-constructive criticism anymore.
Before
I go, one last thought from the Tao Te Ching and then I'll stop
cluttering
the list with non-text related stuff : (those not interested in
non-Beat
literature can either skip it or justify reading because Gary Snyder
used to
translate Chinese verse into English))
The
more laws and restrictions there are,
The
poorer people become.
The
sharper men's weapons,
The
more trouble in the land.
The
more ingenious and clever men are,
The
more strange things happen.
The
more rules and regulations,
The
more theives and robbers.
Therefore
the sage says:
I take
no action and people are reformed
I enjoy
peace and people become honest
I do
nothing and people become rich
I have
no desires and people return to the good and simple life.
I'm
sure someone will want to say "Ah hah! But you just quoted someone else
instead
of speaking your own voice." Yeah
- whatever.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:12:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: William Miller
<KenofWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Lineage, GenX
Rita
and all of you, with due respect:
In a
message dated 95-12-07 12:22:12 EST, Rita writes:
(BTW-is
anyone else so intigued by Burroughs lineage?
not only the adding
machine
but the robert e. lee thing also. i am
amazed at the popular
influence
this family has had)
I am
intrigued by Burroughs' lineage. My
grandmother's aunt Mabel was still
alive
when I was a young one, and I remember her vividly. She claimed to be
the
youngest niece of Robt. E. Lee.
Beware. here in the South, the most common
"ancestor" claimed is Robert E.
Lee.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^t^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On the
topic of GenX and GenX Writing and the beats....
I am of
the dreaded label, being 28 myself. I
don't see much to the grouping
the
writings under a good solid characterization JUST YET. It will take a
long
time before we can look back and draw some conclusions about what's
happening
now. The greatest innovation may be
happening not in the writing
itself
(sound familiar?), but in the publishing realm, self-publishing is
what I
have in mind, what with every Scrappy, Dappy, and Doo building his own
web
page and all of the 'zines published out there. I don't know how GenX
writing
relates to the Beats, except I feel that my generation responds more
to
those performers (primarily their major works) than any other group of
past
artists. AND more writers are being
read, although they are excluded by
higher-ups,
because they can self-publish.
Access. Access. Access.....
As
ever,
William
Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:12:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: William Miller
<KenofWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Whitney, Fellaheen
Hello
folks,
Peter
McGahey wrote:+++++=I was told that in the Whitney exhibit - which is
on Beat
artists- they are displaying a Pollock among other questonable
pieces. How can they
include
him in a Beat exhibit?
I
realize that it is easy to make a cursory connection between Pollock
and
some Beats under the rubric of spontaneous creation of art,
but I
don't think that is acceptable. They
apparently stick many
artists
in there regardless of true affiliation with the Beats.++++++
My
response,::I have read that William S. Burroughs' novel Naked Lunch was
described
by Mary McCarthy as "it also has some of the qualities of an action
painting. It is a kind of *action novel*"
(emphasis WM).
I can
see some relationship between the fragmentation of the two styles,
WSB's
and Pollocks, although I am no authority on either. Of course, if you
believe
that The Beats were a social phenomenon, and not a literary
phenomenon,
then I can't comment to Pollock's inclusion.
I dont' know much
about
the man.
William
Miller
Tim
Gallaher wrote that +++I have never heard that Kerouac never read the
book. I always heard he had read it and it was one
of the many books
Burroughs
turned him on to. I never heard of
Burroughs using the term
fellaheen
in his writings (though
I'm not
so familiar with his) but Kerouac used the term many times++++++
Mr.
Burroughs uses the term "fellaheen" quite a bit in his writings,
particularly
in the novels that he wrote in the 70's and 80's, I do believe.
I can believe that Kerouac used the term, AND
read Spengler's book, I just
recall
reading that WSB **tried** to get Kerouac to read it, I never actually
saw
that Jack had read it.
Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:17:02 GMT
Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Simon Okotie
<simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Ohmygod!!!! We Killed Chance!!!!!!!!
In your
message dated Tuesday 5, December 1995 you wrote :
>
What do you believe goes through ones mind when we are in our mothers
>
womb? Remember, that there is a certain
month during the pregnancy that
>
one does begin hearing. But what is it
that the fetus hears?? Muffled
>
sounds. So, that is another reason why
I believe that we are born as a
>
blank slate.
I
disagree strongly that we are born as a blank slate. I presume that what you
mean by
this is that we are born with a fate that is putty in our hands, to be
moulded
as we wish. I also presume that you
mean our cognitive abilities are
able to
overcome our biological 'givens'. Firstly, if this were the case, then
we -
humans - would have become extinct many millenia ago for the simple reason
that to
survive, we must pass on messages (genes) giving what little information
we have
learned about our changing environment to our offspring. These are the
accumulated
messages written in DNA. They are based on chance happenings.
An
example (from The Language of the Genes - v. important book by Steve Jones):
'Many
Africans have an abnormal form of the red pigment of the blood,
haemoglobin. One of the...building blocks of the molecule
itself...has been
changed
by mutation. This 'sickle-cell' form
protects against
malaria...[However,]
people with two copies [of the cell] may suffer from brain
damage,
heart failure and skeletal abnormalities.'
So you
can see that a response to a malarial environment a long time ago affects
people
today (in this case black people in Africa or elsewhere) - and affects
them by
*chance*. This is an extreme case but
applies in many many other
instances
as well - in a cognitive and biological way.
What
has this got to do with the beats, you may ask. And I don't know the
answer
to that. But what I think it says is
that fate does not exist, and
that we
are affected by a multitude of chance events from the past and present.
Maybe
it's a minute step towards knowing why we are here. What it doesn't tell
us is
where we're going.
Hm...
--
Simon
Okotie
e-mail:
simon@okotie.demon.co.uk
tel: +181 830 3604
22 The
Avenue
Queen's
Park
London
NW6 7YD
UK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:59:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: A turn for the worse....
>Critter,
tell me more about the list you're thinking of starting. I'm
>interested
if it's a place where people aren't going to get flamed for not
>obeying
rules they had nothing to do with setting. (By the way, Charlie
Rose
>is
a very good serious no-frills talk show on PBS).
I never
heard of the Charlie Rose show.. (saying that with an Ahhhhh, Okay,
attitude..).
Anyhow, the list is still "in progress" at the moment. I am
still
working
on the basics and looking at where I want to take this. Most of my
interest
lies in the more "radical" movements in litature that have looked
deep
into the heart of the art in order to change it, keep it in the times,
or
whatever
reason. A secondary motive of mine which I believe is a LITTLE
egotistical
(maybe not): that is, to look at the times and find the roots of
the
next movement in line (if our times mandate such a revolution).
Seriously,
I'd rather the list be composed of like minded thinkers and
artists
who not
only share their knowledge but also their work, and, much like a
group
of mad scientists all working on the ultimate weapon of war, I'd
think a
certain bond would be in order between the people of the list, being
that we
are indeed looking to start the next revolution.
Hell,
in these modern days, where else would a literary revolution start
but on
the Internet? (that's a joke).
..Critter
>The
more laws and restrictions there are,
>The
poorer people become.
>The
sharper men's weapons,
>The
more trouble in the land.
>The
more ingenious and clever men are,
>The
more strange things happen.
>The
more rules and regulations,
>The
more theives and robbers.
>
>Therefore
the sage says:
>I
take no action and people are reformed
>I
enjoy peace and people become honest
>I
do nothing and people become rich
>I
have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.
[The
sound of one-handed applause] hehe..
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:14:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Lineage, GenX
>On
the topic of GenX and GenX Writing and the beats....
>
>I
am of the dreaded label, being 28 myself.
I don't see much to the
grouping
>the
writings under a good solid characterization JUST YET. It will take a
>long
time before we can look back and draw some conclusions about what's
>happening
now. The greatest innovation may be
happening not in the writing
>itself
(sound familiar?), but in the publishing realm, self-publishing is
>what
I have in mind, what with every Scrappy, Dappy, and Doo building his
own
>web
page and all of the 'zines published out there. I don't know how GenX
>writing
relates to the Beats, except I feel that my generation responds
more
>to
those performers (primarily their major works) than any other group of
>past
artists. AND more writers are being
read, although they are excluded
by
>higher-ups,
because they can self-publish.
Access. Access. Access.....
>
>As
ever,
>
>William
Miller
You
hear a lot about this, how the net makes it possible for anyone to
publish
anything
and set it before millions of readers. This is true, from one
aspect.
They
can set it up to be accessed by those readers, but those readers aren't
necessarily
accessing those pages. For example, my site, which is linked to
a
couple thousand different literature, publishing, and personal web sites,
gets
around 40 hits or so per day. I consider my site fairly known by a
select
amount
of people. Now consider when JoeX puts his home page up with his
writing.
By the end of the year he may have as many readers as he would
have by
handing around photocopies of his work in his own city.
What
I'm saying is, I really don' t think that the Web gives every hack
writer
the op.
to publish his writing. Even on the Usenet those who read it will
consider
it yet another paper in the stack and give it no special concern.
I think
of Candy Colored Clown, an odd man that writes these odd little
peices
of strangeness about the rich and famous. Sure, I remember some
of his
work, but I don't remember what they said, only that he wrote them.
Is that
really the goal of a writer? For myself, I'm fairly well known on
rec.
arts.poems.,
though most people won't be able to quote any of my work
or give
a title of a peice that they enjoyed, they'd just say "Oh, yeah,
that
guy who
writes radical poetry and is trying to start a revolution..."
Lowered
to an icon..
..PomoCritter
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 20:46:24 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Michael Thorn
<mthorn@FASTNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: A turn for the worse....
>I'm
starting to care less about WHAT we talk about and am getting concerned
>with
HOW we talk about it. Within the last week, a decidedly hostile,
>defensive
and NOT respectful attitude has crept onto this list. I thought
>this
was a place we could express our opinions without being made fun of or
>criticized
or censored. That's changed.
Liz,
I've
been extremely busy and have only taken cursory note of recent
mailings,
but I hadn't been aware of any flaming taking place - Do you
mean
people have been getting at you through your personal e-mail
address?
Please
stay on the list.
Imagine
the sort of hotwire discussions and ornery arguing that
would
be taking place if, say, Neal Cassidy were able to get
online.
There IS a place for hostility, when it springs
from
the integrity of firmly held views.
Michael,
who'll
look out for your future postings
to see
if he can get the measure of your above complaint
mthorn@fastnet.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:30:21 GMT
Reply-To: simon@okotie.demon.co.uk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Simon Okotie
<simon@OKOTIE.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Kerouac & Jazz
In your
message dated Wednesday 29, November 1995 you wrote :
>
> Can anyone point me to a reference explicating the influence of Jazz on
>
> Kerouac's prose? TIA.
He
wrote extensively *about* jazz in 'The Beginning of Bop', which I have in a
book of
jazz photography called Nights in Birdland.
The peice has a real jazz
(bop)
sound to it, especially if you read it fast. It starts:
'Bop
began with jazz but one afternoon somewhere on a sidewalk maybe 1939, 1940,
Dizzy
Gillespie or Charley Parker or Thelonious Monk was walking down past a
men's
clothing store on 42nd Street or South Main in LA and from the loudspeaker
they
suddenly heard a wild impossible mistake in jazz that could only have been
heard
inside their own imaginary head, that is a new art. Bop. The name derives
from an
accident, America was named after an Italian explorer and not after an
Indian
king. Lionel Hampton had made a record
called 'Hey Baba REe Bop' and
everyboy
yelled it and it was when Lionel would jump in the audience and whale
his
saxophone at everybody with sweat, claps, jumping fools in the aisles, the
drummer
booming and belaboring on his stage as the whole theater rocked.'
There
is also a live recording of K reading this.
--
Simon
Okotie
e-mail:
simon@okotie.demon.co.uk
tel: +181 830 3604
22 The
Avenue
Queen's
Park
London
NW6 7YD
UK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 16:34:02 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Robert Martin
<robmartin@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:
Re: A turn for the worse....
On Fri,
8 Dec 1995, Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM> wrote:
>Before
I go, one last thought from the Tao Te Ching and then I'll stop
>cluttering
the list with non-text related stuff : (those not interested in
>non-Beat
literature can either skip it or justify reading because Gary Snyder
>used
to translate Chinese verse into English))
>
>The
more laws and restrictions there are,
>The
poorer people become.
>The
sharper men's weapons,
>The
more trouble in the land.
>The
more ingenious and clever men are,
>The
more strange things happen.
>The
more rules and regulations,
>The
more theives and robbers.
>
>Therefore
the sage says:
>I
take no action and people are reformed
>I
enjoy peace and people become honest
>I
do nothing and people become rich
>I
have no desires and people return to the good and simple life.
Thanks
Liz... I've always wondered how to say
that... Now I know.
----------------------------------------------------
Robert
Martin
robmartin@earthlink.net 76403.1534@compuserve.com
The
road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
- William Blake
----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 23:31:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Whitney, Fellaheen
>>they
are displaying a Pollock among other questonable
>>pieces. How can they include him in a Beat exhibit?
>I
realize that it is easy to make a cursory connection between >Pollock and
some
Beats under the rubric of spontaneous creation of >art, but I don't
think
that is acceptable. They apparently
stick many
>artists
in there regardless of true affiliation with the Beats.+++++
I have
been poking around for something linking Pollack to the beats,
I know
there's something but couldn't find it. For a start, how about
proximity
in time and space? I think young Ginsberg and Kerouac
were
hanging out in New York around the same time the Cedar Bar was hopping
with Ab
Ex paintflingers. There were evidently connections between the early
beats,
jazz musicians like T. Monk,
and
artists, eg De Kooning and especially Franz Kline.
As in
most matters, I got more questions than answers - two for now:
Was
there a catalog for the Whitney show?
Anybody
know which artist Ginsberg is referring to in this line from "Throw
out the
Yellow Journalists of Bad Grammar and Terrible Manner" (from White
Shroud):
and the
wire-service fellow ex-Harvard, "This business about Secret Police,
why
would you care, successful Abstract Expressionist painter, got a grudge
to work
out on your parents?" ?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 00:13:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: fellaheen
I've
heard (and would be glad to be set straight by one who knows the
language)
that "fellaheen" means peasant in Arabic. But like ... William, I
think
it was ... I have browsed through Spengler and haven't found the word.
If anyone can say wher it's to be found IN
Spengler, I'd appreciate it. Got
the
book out of the library. Hadn't been
taken out in fifteen years! But I
think
Kerouac did read some Spengler: he used to call Allen the "last of the
Faustian
men," a Spengler reference, though I can't say for sure what he
meant.
Ted
Pelton
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 09:22:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: William Miller
<KenofWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: A turn for the worse....
Hello
folks,
In a
message, someone wrote::
>I'm
starting to care less about WHAT we talk about and am getting concerned
>with
HOW we talk about it. Within the last week, a decidedly hostile,
>defensive
and NOT respectful attitude has crept onto this list. I thought
>this
was a place we could express our opinions without being made fun of or
>criticized
or censored. That's changed.
>
i
CERTAINLY did not mean to offend this
person by simply stating that I
would
"relish a discussion of the fictions, the actual TEXTS, of these
writers". If someone responds to my text, positive or
negative, that's
criticism. I welcome that. Criticism helps me. If
you disagree with me,
please
say so. If you always agree with me and
come out in support of my
opinions,
you're certainly not reading what I'm writing.
Please,
whoever you are, stay on the list. I
meant no harm, I just came here
to
exchange views and info on Burroughs and the others.
With
respect,
William
Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:55:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Perry Lindstrom
<LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>
Subject: Read OTR Together?
I agree
that a discussion of selected text of the Beat writers
would
be nice. Howard Park and I are about to
reread OTR for the
Smithsonian
course we are both taking. The danger
of a group
reading
of OTR might be that it is probably the most read of any
Beat
book and everything that can be said about it might already
have
been said. But if people are interested
I would suggest the
possibility
of a reading where we all get generally in sync and
take a
certain amount of pages a week and focus on them. My
suggested
focus would be to take up on an earlier post and that
would
be the degree to which OTR is a revolutionary text --
stylistically
and otherwise -- or is JK merely following in the
tradition
of Gertrude Stein and others. Also
where do we see the
influence
of the French poets -- Rimbaud et. al.
My request to
the
academics out there who might know all the answers would be
to let
us muddle through and give us a goose every now and then
in the
right direction if we appear to wandering too far off, but
not to
inundate us with massive amounts of information that will
make
our own humble ramblings appear even more humble. I think
that
was the sense I got from an earlier post which had
misgivings
about getting too far into the text.
The list has the
whole
spectrum of knowledge, from people who are just getting
into
"The Beats" to people who grew up with them and have been
studying
them formally for years, so I think it behooves us to
try to
accommodate all. So what do people
think?
Several
of you have requested my piece on postmodern poetry so
now I
will have to try to find it. I'll
hopefully get it off in
a
couple of days.
BTW
anyone who really wants a good insight into WSB's evolution
as a
writer and the impact of the shooting on him NEEDS to read
his
letters. I think of anything if have
read of his, his
letters
were the most important -- more so than other writers
whose
text are more linear.
Pollock
at the Whitney -- I guess they felt they didn't have
enough
art in the exhibit. Certainly Ginsberg
and Frank O'Hara
did
have commonality and they read together.
And certainly NY
School
was one of the more important parallel movements of the
time,
but Pollock died in 1956 and was the early phase of the
NYS. They would have been better off with a Larry
Rivers piece
where
there is a much more solid link.
Perry
Lindstrom
PS We
should also delve more into the postmodernity of OTR, if we
decide
to go ahead with the read.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:13:11 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Peter McGahey
<PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Whitney, Fellaheen (fwd)
----------------------------Original
message----------------------------
I have been
poking around for something linking Pollack to the beats,
I know
there's something but couldn't find it. For a start, how about
proximity
in time and space? I think young Ginsberg and Kerouac
were
hanging out in New York around the same time the Cedar Bar was hopping
with Ab
Ex paintflingers. There were evidently connections between the early
beats,
jazz musicians like T. Monk,
and
artists, eg De Kooning and especially Franz Kline.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
First
off - I love that term - "paintflingers" I hope don't mind if I adopt it
Second
- as per someone's suggestion, I have read all my postings before
responding
and have to mention that Perry Lindstrom hit on things that I
would
like to mention but the limitations of the UConn mainframe
prevent
me from qouting more that one of the postings.
I harp
on this because my graduate thesis will most likely be exactly on
this
topic. Although the Beats and the New
York School (O'Hara, Ashbury
etc)
were contemporaries, I think there are important differences. The
NY
School, unlike the Beats, were friends with the AB Ex painters. The
Cedar
was a great gathering place for the NY School bothpoets and painters.
O'Hara
etc knew and supported the Ab Ex's (O'Hara was a curator at Moma)
while
the Beats rarely saw or associated with either of the NY Schools.
O'Hara
and Kerouac pretty much hated each other.
That's
extraneous - what I think is the big difference is exactly what this
posting
brought up. The Beats were very much
influenced by jazz etc. Theirs
was an
aural poetry. "Howl" and
"Mexico City Blues" are not given justice
unless
they are read aloud. If you haven't
yet, you must find a recording
and
listen to Kerouac and Ginsberg read their poems - it adds so much more.
Thus,
their spontaneous poerty is for the ear.
The AB EX painters and their
counterparts,
the NY School poets are VISUAL. You
need to see a Poloock
or a
Kline to see their visual image of spontanaity. If you read an
O'Hara
like "The Day Lady Died" you see the images in your head rather
than
hear it. That is what I think is an
important difference, more so
than my
little investigation into their personal feelings for eachpother.
For
reasons similar to this (I am not an art historian) I see differences
between
the West Coast movement of this time as well.
The San Francisno
painters
may have had similar ideas as the NY School, but there are important
subtle
differences. I personally have a
problem extending the definition
of
"Beat" to include anyone not in the direct circle of the Fab Four -
JK,
Ginsberg,
WB and Corso. Their immediate circle
inclded many, Carr, Hunke
etc.
but I don;'t think it really included many of the West Coaster.
What do
you all think? Is Snyder and McClure
etc a viable "Beat"?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:31:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Robert Martin
<robmartin@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Read OTR Together?
On Sat,
9 Dec 1995, Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM> wrote:
>I
agree that a discussion of selected text of the Beat writers
>would
be nice. Howard Park and I are about to
reread OTR for the
>Smithsonian
course we are both taking. The danger
of a group
>reading
of OTR might be that it is probably the most read of any
>Beat
book and everything that can be said about it might already
>have
been said. But if people are interested
I would suggest the
>possibility
of a reading where we all get generally in sync and
>take
a certain amount of pages a week and focus on them.
I'm all
for it. But I'll probably just wind up
reading everyone else's
comments,
I'm just a recreational Kerouac user.
----------------------------------------------------
Robert
Martin
robmartin@earthlink.net 76403.1534@compuserve.com
The
road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
- William Blake
----------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 00:49:30 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Robert Daeley
<rdaeley@EMPIRENET.COM>
Subject: POEM
Regarding
recent list laughing-ravings, I offer up Monsieur Kerouac and
his
"POEM" (from 1959):
POEM
Jazz
killed itself
But
dont let poetry kill itself
Dont be
afraid
of the cold night air
Dont
listen to institutions
when
you return manuscripts to
brownstone
dont
bow & scuffle
for Edith Wharton pioneers
or
ursula major nebraska prose
just hang in your own backyard
& laugh play pretty
cake trombone
&
if somebody give you beads
juju, jew, or otherwise,
sleep
with em around your neck
Your
dreams'll maybe better
There's no rain
there's no me,
I'm tellin ya man
sure as shit.
----------------------
Robert
Daeley
rdaeley@empirenet.com
http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/
Authors
Links & Info page:
http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/authors/authors.html
Film
Directors Links & Info page:
http://www.empirenet.com/~rdaeley/directors/directors.html
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:19:04 GMT
Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "bs@AUC"
<i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>
Subject: Usages of "Fellaheen"
William
Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM> wrote:
>Tim
Gallaher wrote that +++I have never heard that Kerouac never read the
>book. I always heard he had read it and it was one
of the many books
>Burroughs
turned him on to. I never heard of
Burroughs using the term
>fellaheen
in his writings (though
>I'm
not so familiar with his) but Kerouac used the term many times++++++
>
>Mr.
Burroughs uses the term "fellaheen" quite a bit in his writings,
>particularly
in the novels that he wrote in the 70's and 80's, I do believe.
> I
can believe that Kerouac used the term, AND read Spengler's book, I just