is
sitting in the open . . . . confused as to what to pray now, is emptiness:
confused
as to what to pray now, is not different from emptiness, neither is
emptiness
different from being confused as to what to pray now, indeed,
emptiness
is being confused as to what to pray now' . . . (this on the first
regular
wood bead) (the others follow, fingering, listening) . . . (each has
its
turn) (it sometimes gets charming and amusing and yet there is that
continuous
Praja canceling out all attributes) . . . (The disciple comes to
the
first glassbead) . . . 'The dust in my dream last night, is emptiness of
the
Ananda glassbead; the dust of my dream last night is not different from
the
emptiness of the Ananda glassbead, neither is emptiness of the Ananda
glassbead
different from the dust of my dream last night, indeed, emptiness
of the
Ananda glassbead is the dust of my dream last night' . . . and so on.
I know
this works because it's worked for me, alone, with dogs, in my Twin
Tree
Grove here, every night for the past 6 weeks . . . 'The bowing weeds is
emptiness,
the bowing weeds is not different from emptiness, neither is
emptiness
different from the bowing weeds, indeed, emptiness is the bowing
weeds.'
That nothing ever happens, is emptiness; that nothing ever happens,
is not
different from emptiness; neither is emptiness different from that
nothing
ever happens; indeed, emptiness is that nothing ever happens . . . "
(Letter
to Gary Snyder)
Okay, I think I have typed myself
silly, which I believe is the idea -- a
way to
help your mind off yourself in this work. Any thoughts on all this?
The
glass bead stuff makes me think of Hermann Hesse and his Glass Bead Game.
All for now.
Dan B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:08:38 GMT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Richard Bradbury <R.A.Bradbury%exeter.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET>
Subject: Re: greetings
Dear
Dale
browsing
the net and came across your name. How are things?
Best
wishes
Richard
Bradbury
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:08:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Mark Fisher
<Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>
Subject: Collectors?
I am interested in communicating with
those of you who collect Beat
lit and or ephemera. I am not a dealer.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:37:18 GMT
Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "bs@Aalborg U (AAU)"
<i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>
Subject: Re: Big Sky Mind
On Tue,
9 Jan 1996 18:14:19 GMT,
Dan
Barth <Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org>
wrote:
> A couple of weeks ago at a used book
store I picked up a book by
Lafcadio
>Hearn
called *Kwaidan: Stories and Studies of Strange Things*. Most of the
>stories
are from Chinese and Japanese sources.
One titled "The Story of
>Mimi-Nashi-Hoichi" includes a reference to the Buddhist
"Pragna-
>Paramita-Hridaya-Sutra"
and includes this footnote: "Both the smaller and
>larger
sutras called Pragna-Paramita (Transcendent Wisdom) have been
>translated
by the late Professor Max Muller, and can be found in volume xlix.
>of
*The Sacred Books of the East* ('Buddhist Mahayana Sutras'). -- Apropos of
>the
magical use of the text, as described in this story, it is worth
>remarking
that the subject of the sutra is the Doctrine of the Emptiness of
>Forms,
-- that is to say, of the unreal character of all phenomena or noumena
>. .
. . ' Form is emptiness; and emptiness is form. Emptiness is not
>different
from form; form is not different from emptiness. What is form --
>that
is emptiness. What is emptiness -- that is form . . . . ' "
>
> I copied that down because I liked the
way it resonated in my mind.
Then a
>few
days later I was reading the Kerouac section of *Big Sky Mind* and came
>across
these riffs or takes that Kerouac had done on that sutra. I'm not
>trying
to make a point here, I just like the way these things sound, the way
>old
Jack played with the words and concepts of the Transcendent Wisdom Sutra.
The
letters Dan is quoting from are also in the "Selected Letters" edited
by Ann
Charters, on pp. 546-550 and pp. 566-570, respectively...
Regards,
bs@AAU
Dept.
of Languages and Intercultural Studies
Aalborg
University, Denmark
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:16:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Trevor D. Smith"
<V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization:
University at Buffalo
Subject: Re: Big Sky Mind
In a
recent post, Dan B. quoted a letter from Kerouac to
Gary
Snyder-- it had overtones of Buddhism (indeed, this
was
mentioned in the letter, I believe).
Anyone familiar
with
LaoTse's _Tao Te King_ will also probably see many
similarities
between Kerouac's ideas and those discussed
by
LaoTse (the lightest thing is really the heaviest, etc.).
Dan B.
also notes that he thinks of Hermann Hesse's
_Glass
Bead Game_ also in reference to the letter.
I am
not sure that Hesse's glass beads could be compared
to
Kerouac's here, ut the linguistic usage is no doubt
notable.
An
interesting question occurs to me (this list may or
not be
the platform for such): Just how
"beat" was
Hesse?? Although he preceded the "beat
generation"
writers
by about 50 years (he was born in 1877), I wonder how
much of
a "beat influence" (i.e. Rimbaud, Whitman,
Dylan
Thomas-- Ginsberg calls them "Secret Heroes") he
was. Hesse certainly possessed many of the traits
and ideals
that
the Beat Generation later expressed (I think).
Does
anyone know if Hesse receives much attention from
Kerouac,
Ginsberg, Burroughs.........? I would
appreciate
any
feedback.
Trevor
D. Smith-
University at Buffalo
German Dept.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:42:23 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Mark Fisher
<Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Big Sky Mind
In a
recent post, Dan B. quoted a letter from Kerouac to
Gary
Snyder-- it had overtones of Buddhism (indeed, this
was
mentioned in the letter, I believe).
Anyone familiar
with
LaoTse's _Tao Te King_ will also probably see many
similarities
between Kerouac's ideas and those discussed
by
LaoTse (the lightest thing is really the heaviest, etc.).
Dan B.
also notes that he thinks of Hermann Hesse's
_Glass
Bead Game_ also in reference to the letter.
I am
not sure that Hesse's glass beads could be compared
to
Kerouac's here, ut the linguistic usage is no doubt
notable.
An
interesting question occurs to me (this list may or
not be
the platform for such): Just how
"beat" was
Hesse?? Although he preceded the "beat
generation"
writers
by about 50 years (he was born in 1877), I wonder how
much of
a "beat influence" (i.e. Rimbaud, Whitman,
Dylan
Thomas-- Ginsberg calls them "Secret Heroes") he
was. Hesse certainly possessed many of the traits
and ideals
that
the Beat Generation later expressed (I think).
Does
anyone know if Hesse receives much attention from
Kerouac,
Ginsberg, Burroughs.........? I would
appreciate
any
feedback.
Trevor
D. Smith-
University at Buffalo
German Dept.
Trevor,
I do
recall a reference to Hesse in my beat readings. My recollection is
that
Hesse was dismissed by the author (Kerouac?). If I can locate the
quote,
I will forward it to you.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:11:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Joe Aimone
<joaimone@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: New discussion list
Comments:
To: abow0001@GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU
Please
reproduce this announcement freely.
Announcement:
Discussion
list for graduate students in the modern languages
E-Grad
is intended principally as a sheltered but open forum for the
concerns
of graduate students in the modern languages. It is maintained by
members
of the Graduate Student Caucus, an allied organization of the MLA.
As an
allied organization, GSC does not represent the MLA. Rather, it is a
group
of its members, who are graduate students. You do not need to be a
member
of the MLA or the GSC to subscribe to E-Grad.
1) Send
a message to
listproc@listproc.bgsu.edu
2) Leave
everything else blank except for a line in the message section
with:
subscribe e-grad firstname
lastname
3)
Shortly after that, you'll get a welcome message which you might want
to
save.
If you have problems or questions,
please feel free to e-mail me
(Alan
Rea) at alan@bgnet.bgsu.edu and I'll be more than happy to help.
--
Joe
Aimone
Department
of English
University
of California, Davis
joaimone@ucdavis.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:11:48 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Max Croasdale DD-SP
<mcroasda@MADGE.COM>
Organization:
Madge Networks
Subject: Hesse/On the Road
In-Reply-To: <C301C74E01560C00>
Mark,
Trevor,
I've
recently joined the list and thought that I might contribute to this
question.
As far as I remember Kerouac does mention Hesse in 'On the
Road'.
I don't know the exact quote
(Steppenwolf?), but I think it
occurs
pretty near the beginning of the book.
I don't have a copy of
'Road'
with me so I can't check but I hope this helps.
regards,
Max.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:32:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Trevor D. Smith"
<V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization:
University at Buffalo
Subject: Hesse and Beat
Thanks
for those prompt replies in regard to Hesse
and
Beat literature. I will grab a copy of
_On the
Road_
and see if I can locate that quote (or any,
by
Kerouac). I would indeed be surprised
if Kerouac
(or any
writers of the Beat Generation) dismisses
Hesse
(they all seem to share common goals and ideas),
but
Hesse-reception has varied greatly at different
times
and in different locations, so I suppose anything
might
be possible.
Hesse
was incredibly well-read and I did check to see
if he
had written any literary reviews (he wrote MANY!)
on any
of the Beat writers. Apparently, he
never did.
Hesse
was not terribly productive in his final years
(he
died in 1962) and wasn't really that interested in
American
literature anyway. That may explain the
absence
of any Beat discussion on his part. I
would
bet,
however, that Hesse was aware of writers like
Kerouac,
Ginsberg and Burroughs. I will continue
to
search.
Keep me
posted. Thanks!!
Trevor
D. Smith--
University of Buffalo
German Dept.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:59:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Sonja Streuber
<shstreuber@UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat
In-Reply-To: <01HZVPNEERE08WW3CQ@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>
What an
exciting topic! Now, in contrast to
Trevor, though, I would
doubt
that Hesse was aware of the Beats at all.
Judging from his
psychology
as author and philosopher, I would rather think that he was
more
into Kafka (who read him in return), which shows in the end of
_Steppenwolf_,
and Brecht. And I would actually relate
the orientalism
that we
find in _Siddharta_ not so much to the appropriaton of Bhuddism
by the
Beats, either, but rather (judging from Hesses's 19th century
affiliations)
to Goethe's _West-Eastern Diwan_, or to the stuff that was
going
on in the British and French Decadence at that time.
Philosophically,
he (at least for me) tends more towards the 19th century
as
well, and _Steppenwolf_, in many parts, seems to be a rewriting of _Thus
Spoke
Zarathustra_ (Nietzsche). As for his
reviewing
activities, I am sure he has reviewed many European books, but
again,
I really doubt that he would have had anything to do with the
Beats. The America he knew was probably that of
Kafka's stories, or that
of the
Brecht-Weill connection (which means *much* earier).
The
rereadings of Hesse by Kerouac, Ginsberg, and friends is, I think,
something
completely different. Especially during
the 60s, 70s, and
early
80s (I caught the tail end of it still), Hesse was just incredibly
popular
worldwide. So, I would see his
inclusion in _On the Road_ rather
as a
historical/ philosophical chroncling or as an attempt of Kerouac's
to
situate his book within a larger literary context. Or, and this point
has
been made by various critics of Kerouac's, it points to an eclectic
nostalgia
for Romanticist moments.
Couldn't
keep my mouth shut on that one....
Sonjaa
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Sonja
Streuber * The arrogance associated with knowledge
and
Department
of English * sensation lays a blinding fog over man's
eyes
University
of California * by instilling in him a most flattering
Davis,
CA 95616 * estimation of this faculty of knowledge.
shstreuber@ucdavis.edu * (F. Nietzsche, 1873)
============================================================================
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 12:35:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Mark Fisher
<Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>
Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat
My
earlier recollection is starting to come in to focus, although I still
have not located the source. It seems to
me that Kerouac was asked a
question about Hesse's view of Bhuddism
in the novel Siddhartha.
Kerouac's response suggested that Hesse
was not an authority on
Bhuddism. I might have read this in his
Paris Review interview with
Ted Berrigan and Aram Saroyan.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:05:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Christopher C. Hayes" <risny@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Baraka
The
idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking
is
exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats
confusion
in the first place. Those born in an
around the beat era, were
few and
far between. What I mean to say, is
that there was a very low
birth
rate at the time. Due to their lack of
numbers, the beat ideas were
shunned,
until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.
Even if
you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation
of the
beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing pressure put
on them
not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform in nonconformity.
The
same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu
confusion
Damien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:10:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: filler: Love's Pain
Comments:
To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
> -Zoe LD
I
enjoyed the poems, but wondering if this is a name I should
recognize?
either as a list member or someone associated
w/ the
beats that my ignorance doesn't know..
..Critter
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:10:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Keroauc/beat events
Comments:
To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
>We're
starting to get the Spring 1996 issue of <<DHARMA beat>> magazine
>together.
If anyone is planning or knows of Kerouac or beat events,
>organizations,
activities, clubs, etc. we would be happy to publish that
>information
for you.
[text
deleted]
>Mark
Hemenway
>Co-editor
>mhemenway@s1.drc.com
Who do
or HOW do we get subscription information to DHARMA beat?
If you
can post that here or send it personally I'd be greatful.
[Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM] Critter
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:09:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Christopher C. Hayes"
<risny@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Baraka
On Jan
03, 1996 11:02:31, 'Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>' wrote:
>"conformity
criticism"
Could
you define the above for me?
Thanks
Damien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:18:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Ritter, Chris D"
<rittec@UH2297P01.DAYTONOH.ATTGIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Naropa
Comments:
To: "BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
>Ted
asked if anyone had ever attended Naropa. I took a class there about
the
>Shambhala
tradition, but it too was a summer class, and I wasn't enrolled
as
>a
full-time student. My feelings about Naropa are mixed; I very much
respect
>what
they're trying to do, but I think they fall into the trappings many
>academic
institutions do, which is letting their ego get in the way of
their
>compassion
I have
a similar question on this strand.
I'm
nearing my graduation as an English/Theatre major w/ an emphasis in
Film..
hehe (personal joke, though very much true). Anyhow, I'm curious to
know
if: 1. Naropa offers an MA in
Alternative
Fiction/Theatre/Poetry/Film,
2. IF there is even a
SCHOOL that offers such a study,
and
3. IF something similar
does exist, where might I find
that
college?
[Chris.Ritter@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM] Critter
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:27:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: The Guelph Peak
<peak@UOGUELPH.CA>
Subject: Re: Baraka
Comments:
cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@cunyvm.csd.unb.ca>
In-Reply-To:
<199601112305.SAA03763@pipe5.nyc.pipeline.com>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul
Reeve at
da
PEAK
email: peak@uoguelph.ca
Guelph's
Student Magazine phone:
(519)824-4120 x8522
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Thu,
11 Jan 1996, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:
>
>
The same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu
>
confusion
Notions
of individuality? What
foolishness! How could they...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 19:59:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "W. Luther Jett"
<MagenDror@AOL.COM>
Subject: Blessings of Baraka?
>The
same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, >thus
confusion
And
here I thought confusion (and individuality) were natural aspects of the
human
condition.
I'm
glad someone has the temerity to clear this up.
Luther
Jett
I mean,
_really_! "Individualistic _crap_"?? What other kind of crap is
there?
LJ
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:16:30 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Glenn Davis <gdavis@SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Baraka
it
occurs that out of confusion, if not driven to suicidal angst, there is
the
rare moment of a solution to a problem which, forgive my
misunderstanding
if that is the case, though you certainly do possess that
if not
compassion, you may not have suffered
how
cum?
gd
At
06:05 PM 1/11/96 -0500, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:
>The
idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking
>is
exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats
>confusion
in the first place. Those born in an
around the beat era, were
>few
and far between. What I mean to say, is
that there was a very low
>birth
rate at the time. Due to their lack of
numbers, the beat ideas were
>shunned,
until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.
>
>Even
if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation
>of
the beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing pressure put
>on
them not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform in nonconformity.
>The
same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu
>confusion
>
>Damien
>
>
-SOURCES- eJournal - a division of DSO, Inc.
'Beyond
Intelligence -- Truth' (tm)
http://www.dso.com/sources/
601 Van
Ness Suite E3425
San
Francisco, Ca 94102
Fx.
415-775-3082 V. 415-775-9785
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 00:10:13 -0700
Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: JAMES ATKERSON
<abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?
Individuality
is the result of interpretation of one's perpective
of
their life experience-phenomenological retention.
Confusion
is the result of not having enough information or the
defensive
reaction to not accepting personal responsibility for
decision-making.
But
this is only my individual interpretation given what facts
I have
decided to accept in my life.
Anybody
dig on "Mexico Blues"?
........................................James.......................
--
...driven
to madness,starving hysterical naked...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:21:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: conformity
I'm
afraid I can't agree with Damien. The
pressure to conform in the 1950s was
very
real. There wasn't any pressure *not*
to conform. Those, like Ginsberg,
who did
rebel paid a very real price for it.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:28:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Collectors?
Hi
Mark:
I'm a
collector of Beat lit, etc. and hope to hear from you.
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:15:43 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>
Subject: Collectors and Hesse
If you would like to discuss beat
collecting please contact me at
Fisher@Programart.com.
The following quote is from "Dharma
Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first
in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p.
197 (reference is to Ginsberg):
"For his study of Buddhism he
examined Herman Hesse's novel,
"Siddhartha" which he judged to
be, nowhere in particular."
There is also a passing reference to HH in
Literary Outlaw, but it
refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia
Foundation based on a group of
mystic scientists in "The Glass Bead
Game." Although Burroughs opinion
was not expressed, he apparently did not
care much for Leary at the
time.
I could not find a reference to HH in the
Paris Review interview of
JK.
Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters,
book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?
I found some interesting similarities
between the Russian writers of
that era and the Beats. Has anyone
written about this influence?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:17:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Trevor D. Smith"
<V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization:
University at Buffalo
Subject: Hesse (yet again!)
Thanks
much for all the responses to my Hesse query.
I have
poked
around a bit and have yet to find any proof that Hesse
did, in
fact, know of the Beat writers. Hesse
practiced an
odd
ritual however-- he never reviewed or wrote about works
that he
didn't like. Thus, it is quite possible
he knew
of Kerouac
and/or Burroughs, but felt they were not worthy
of
review (!). I will continue my search
and keep you all
posted.
In
terms of Hesse's influence on the "Beat Generation"--
I am
still working on that too, but am sure that he had
some
effect (perhaps a negative one, as some here have
suggested). Hesse was highly regarded by Colin Wilson
(see
_The Outsider_), but he was, of course, British.
Fred
Haines (screenplay author of the "Ulysses" and
"Steppenwolf"
films) claims that Kerouac, in his search
for
transcendetalism, discovered Hesse. I
will look
into
this.
Thanks
again, and keep me posted. I appreciate
all of
your
replies.
Trevor
D. Smith--
University of Buffalo
German Dept.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:38:44 GMT
Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Dan Barth
<Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>
Organization:
Redwood Free-Net
Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat
I'm
thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned *Steppenwolf*. At
the
Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say
something
about it or some other book being much more interesting than
*Steppenwolf*?
I'll check my bookshelf later.
Regarding
Hesse's reviews and reading, he read Thomas Wolfe's *Look Homeward
Angel*
and reviewed it very favorably. Check out his book, *My Belief*, which
also
has a review of *The Catcher in the Rye* and some of his writing on
Buddha
and Lao- Tse. With Trevor, I'm guessing he was aware of the Beats but
was
doing more gardening than reviewing at the time. I see him as sympatico
with
the Beats but not much of a direct influence. For one thing I don't
think
there were too many English language translations of his books until
the
1960s and '70s.
Trevor,
when I get these postings they don't include e-mail address. If you
will
send me yours, I'd like to correspond further on this topic. That goes
for
everyone else too.
On the
world wide web there is some interesting material which I found by
doing a
net search for "Glass Bead Game."
Cheers.
Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:45:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>
Subject: Tangent and apology
At
06:05 PM 1/11/96 -0500, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:
>The
idea that one can pass over social learning if it isn't to their liking
>is
exactly the type of individualistic crap that lead to the beats
>confusion
in the first place.
Excuse
me if I'm misinterpreting "social learning", but are you saying we
should
do just what society tells us, just to avoid confusion?
So,
it's not the pressure to conform that confuses one, but the "notion"
that
there
is something intelligent within us that resists conformity? Your
thinking
reminds me of the logic of brainwashing, in which the unfortunate
subject
is eventually convinced that their resistance to the introduced
influence
was the cause of their confusion; a confusion in this case
deliberately
set up by the programmers for their own purposes. (Any
resemblance
to society is intended)
To
paraphrase a non-beat poet: to be yourself, in a world that wants you to
be
someone else, is to fight the hardest fight anyone ever fought and never
stop
fighting.
>
Those born in an around the beat era, were
>few
and far between. What I mean to say, is
that there was a very >low
birth
rate at the time. Due to their lack of
numbers, the beat >ideas were
shunned,
until the boomers co-opted their Baccnalian sprite.
This
does not make sense. Is it supposed to, or are you trying to send us up?
An idea
is either accepted or not , by however many people.
>Even
if you discount the idea that social constructs lead to the isolation
of the
beat generation, you still must recognize the amazing >pressure put on
them
not to conform -- and thus ironicly to conform >in nonconformity.
Although
the pressure not to conform exists, I agree with Bill Gargan
that
the beats were under more pressure to conform.
>The
same pressure gives rise to notions of individuality, and, thsu
>confusion
Successful
conditioning will lead to notions of certitude, however unfounded.
A
certain amount of confusion is not only to be tolerated but welcomed,
especially
by writers and artists and others who are trying to grow something
(a
self, perhaps?). Confusion can be a learning edge. Unless you want an
artistic
tradition like ancient Egypt's, that didn't change for thousands of
years.
In which case we should never have had that blossoming called the beat
generation,
of which at least several of us here are fond.
Jules
(who apologizes for breaking one of her new years resolutions:
not to
be seduced into discussions with youngsters grinding their
philosophical
axes on this list, when there is plenty of beat-related stuff
to
discuss)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:05:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Gary Gillman
<garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>
Subject: Re: Hesse (yet again!)
At
03:17 PM 1/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks
much for all the responses to my Hesse query.
I have
>poked
around a bit and have yet to find any proof that Hesse
>did,
in fact, know of the Beat writers.
Hesse practiced an
>odd
ritual however-- he never reviewed or wrote about works
>that
he didn't like. Thus, it is quite
possible he knew
>of
Kerouac and/or Burroughs, but felt they were not worthy
>of
review (!). I will continue my search
and keep you all
>posted.
>
>In
terms of Hesse's influence on the "Beat Generation"--
>I
am still working on that too, but am sure that he had
>some
effect (perhaps a negative one, as some here have
>suggested). Hesse was highly regarded by Colin Wilson
>(see
_The Outsider_), but he was, of course, British.
>
>Fred
Haines (screenplay author of the "Ulysses" and
>"Steppenwolf"
films) claims that Kerouac, in his search
>for
transcendetalism, discovered Hesse. I
will look
>into
this.
>
>Thanks
again, and keep me posted. I appreciate
all of
>your
replies.
>
>
>Trevor
D. Smith--
> University of Buffalo
> German Dept.
>
>
Interesting
of Trevor Smith to mention Colin Wilson re his original query on
the
relationship of Hesse and the Beats. In one of John Clennon Holmes (late
60`s)
travel essays, I believe the one on London, Holmes, when referring
endearingly
but disapprovingly to the emotional reserve for which the
British
are renowned, states that the Brits felt " burned by Colin Wilson ".
So,
this suggests some empathy between the Beat perspective ( and don`t
believe
for a minute that Holmes didn`t embody the Beat ethos - the
authentic
one - to the core) and Hesse, to whom Wilson felt a close empathy
as
pointed out by Trevor Smith. Am I stretching things? Maybe, but I don`t
think
so.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:37:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Rodney Lee Phillips <philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Collectors and Hesse
In-Reply-To:
<9600128214.AA821481568@wok.programart.com> from "Mark
Fisher" at
Jan 12, 96 01:15:43 pm
Mark--
In
regards to your question concerning the Beats & Russian writers, see a
collection
of interviews called (I believe) <The Beat Generation and the
Russian
New Wave>. It was published by Ardis
Press in Ann Arbor in 1990.
Sorry,
but I can't remember the editor's name.
The book contains some
interesting
stuff on the connections between the Beats and their Russian
counterparts.
Best,
Rod Phillips
Dept of American Thought & Language
Michigan State
philli31@pilot.msu.edu
>
> If you would like
to
discuss beat collecting please contact me at > Fisher@Programart.com.
>
>
> The following quote is from "Dharma
Lion" by Michael Schumacher, first
> in wraps, Chap. 9 "Howl", p.
197 (reference is to Ginsberg):
>
> "For his study of Buddhism he
examined Herman Hesse's novel,
> "Siddhartha" which he judged
to be, nowhere in particular."
>
> There is also a passing reference to HH
in Literary Outlaw, but it
> refers to Timothy Leary's Castalia
Foundation based on a group of
> mystic scientists in "The Glass
Bead Game." Although Burroughs opinion
> was not expressed, he apparently did not
care much for Leary at the
> time.
>
> I could not find a reference to HH in
the Paris Review interview of
> JK.
>
> Has anyone read Ann and Sam Charters,
book about Mayakovsky, "I Love"?
> I found some interesting similarities
between the Russian writers of
> that era and the Beats. Has anyone
written about this influence?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:41:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>
Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?
Comments:
To: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@aztec.asu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <9601120710.AA06870@aztec.asu.edu>
On Fri,
12 Jan 1996, JAMES ATKERSON wrote:
>
...driven to madness,starving hysterical naked...
"driven
to..."--"destroyed by..."?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:59:28 -0700
Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: JAMES ATKERSON
<abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Blessings of Baraka?
An
exercise in poetic license.
--
...driven
to madness,
starving
hysterical
naked...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:27:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Mark Fisher
<Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>
Subject: Dead Beat
I recently came across a book by Hank
Harrison called "The Dead Book."
For those of you not familiar with it,
this book is a narrative
history of the Grateful Dead. It is also
a history of the California
counterculture with lots of references to
the Beats (Neal Cassady in
particular). Check it out.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:54:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: William Miller
<KenofWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Hesse and Burroughs
Hello
folks.
there
is, as has been mentioned, a passing reference to HH in _Literary
Outlaw_,
the Ted Morgan bio of WSB.
There
is no reference to HH in the Barry Miles bio of WSB.
Let's
hope I'm taking good notes.
William
Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:34:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Linda Grimes
<00lsgrimes@BSUVC.BSU.EDU>
Subject: The Beat Ethos
Could
someone please explain what the Beat ethos is?
Thanks,
Linda
Grimes 00lsgrimes@bsu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 09:37:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Gary Gillman
<garym@ASTRAL.MAGIC.CA>
Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos
At
08:34 AM 1/13/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Could
someone please explain what the Beat ethos is?
>
>Thanks,
>Linda
Grimes 00lsgrimes@bsu.edu
>
May I
suggest the following as my understanding of the true Beat ethos: it
is
simply (but no less than) the upholding of the worth and distinctiveness
of the
individual and his spirit in (to borrow a memorable phrase of John
Clennon
Holmes) the " automated kaleidescope of our times"). Jack Kerouac
drew
particularly vibrant pictures of Beatness based on American models
ranging
from Neal Cassady to Gary Snyder to Harpo Marx to Charlie Parker.
True
Beatness is, as Kerouac said, " sympathetic", but it is also, as Jack
always
insisted, essentially apolitical. Jack rightly decried a vision of
Beats
"exuding transactions", and I think Alan Ginsberg recognizes this
now.
He said
as much in the recent documentary film made of his life. As for
drugs,
they were part of the revolution in manners which Beat culture helped
to
bring about in the 50`s, but as Jack wrote they were just a fad, a symbol
- the
Beats` equivalent of the Lost Generation`s champagne bottle entwined
in a
silk stocking.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:20:40 GMT
Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Dan Barth
<Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>
Organization:
Redwood Free-Net
Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos
"the
magic game of glad freedom"
-- JK,
*Big Sur*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:39:55 GMT
Reply-To: Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>
Organization:
Redwood Free-Net
Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat
I found
the reference on p.24 of my Bantam paperback edition of *Big Sur*:
"Long
nights simply thinking about the usefulness of that little wire
scourer,
those little yellow copper things you buy in supermarkets for 10
cents,
all to me infinitely more interesting than the stupid and senseless
'Steppenwolf'
novel in the shack which I read with a shrug . . ."
Again,
I don't think there's a direct link between Hesse and the Beats, but
there
is an indirect one through Thomas Wolfe and other writers. Hesse's
early
novels *Peter Camenzind*, *Knulp* and *Wandering* have certain
similarities
to Kerouac's work. In his book *The Novels of Hermann Hesse*,
Theodore
Ziolkowski talks about "The Roamantic Bildungsroman" which
"typically
displays an episodic structure that permits a broad exposure of
the
hero to contemporary cultural influences while deriving its coherence
from a
central focus on the inner growth of the youth toward an affirmation
of
life." That's a fair description of *Look Homeward, Angel* and *On the
Road*
as well as *Demian* and other Hesse novels.
By the
way, I've seen reference to an early Hesse book (1906) called *On the
Road*
in some translations.
DB
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:13:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Megan Milard
<Sixgallery@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Beat Ethos
in your
definition of the beat ethos you mentioned a recently released
documentary
of Allen Ginsberg. Do you happen to
know the title/distributor
of the
film? I would love to get my hands on
it. thanks.
megan m.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:34:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 11 Jan 1996 to 12
Jan 1996
Julie -
I made the same resolution myself. Nice
post. Also, Bill.
I'd
like to repeat/reword a query that I had months ago in the context of
1940s-50s
social pressures. I'm working on a
novel that deals with an
imagined
meeting between Malcolm X and Jack K in NYC in the mid-forties.
Both were hanging around uptown jazz clubs in
the 40s around the time Bird &
Diz
& company were inventing bop (Diz called a tune "kerouac" because
he
liked
the sound of the name!) and both were very influenced by jazz. The
other
night, on NPR, I heard an interview with Branford Marsalis that gives
me a
clue into why. He said that the best
black minds in America were jazz
musicians
in the 40s; what else could they do?
There was no black
professional
class. If you were black and wanted to
see the world, you could
become a
RR porter, join the service, or become a jazz musician. Malcolm and
Jack
(in his rejection of white "success" football star-culture) both
lived
variations
of this course and got into jazz (tho of course Malcolm then went
to jail
and in another direction -- but that's another topic). Both, also,
in
their involvement with this black jazz culture of improvisation,
creativity
& criminality (socially defined), responded to these
African-American
geniuses: Bird, Diz, Monk, Lester Young, etc.
Ok, my
question. Is there anything that comes
to mind that you think I
should
be reading, listers? I've been mining
this territory already, but
please,
feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as "obvious"
suggestions
of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This
goes
for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,
Baraka's
Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for
me, but
anything else you think of?
Is
there a Black Beatness (besides, or in line with, Mr. Baraka's course)?
Or is "Beat," Black Whiteness? You dig?
One
more thing: does anyone know if Dizzy's song "Kerouac" is available
on
any
CD? Which? I've never heard it.
Best,
Ted
Pelton
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 20:43:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: James Grauerholz
<Seward23@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beat-L digest (blues)
Check
out <Beneath the Underdog>, Charles Mingus -- I remember Richard
Elovich
and I had William and Allen over to dinner one night, our apt. at 306
E. 6th
St., Mingus was there, and Joel C. (Jody) Harris, guitarist and old
Coffeyville
friend, and I played a Skip James side, and Allen asked Mingus,
apropos
the falsetto of Skip J., "Now what do you think of that, Charlie?"
and
Mingus said, "Well ... it da blues."
Which was perfect.
You
won't believe me but this is a true story.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:57:12 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Thomas McNamee
<mcnamet@EOSC.OSSHE.EDU>
Subject: Recommended reading
In-Reply-To:
<960113203413_115704074@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Ted
Pelton" at
Jan 13, 96 08:34:13 pm
>
>
Ok, my question. Is there anything that
comes to mind that you think I
>
should be reading, listers? I've been
mining this territory already, but
>
please, feel free to make what you might otherwise dismiss as
"obvious"
>
suggestions of texts -- anything beyond OTR, Vanity of Dulouz, Howl. This
>
goes for the Black context as well -- Billie Holiday's Lady Sings the Blues,
>
Baraka's Blues People and Malcolm's Autobiography are the centers of this for
>
me, but anything else you think of?