beat list 1996

only tink/rite in pomes. (pommes de terre).....fws

On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Ritter, Chris D wrote:

> >The "ONE WAY" to experience NYC, MAN: late (2-4 am) wandering around Times

> >Square--Greyound Bus Station area, taking in the mildly violent vibes and

> >talking to whichever black prostitutes want to talk (I did this during my

> >1 golden month back in the "land of the free" in august, by the way)

> >about how things have "gotten much more tense and violent" in this area

> >of nyc, late at night.....(but only talking, of course), and only THEN

> >hitting one of those amazing pulsating-with-energy late-nite bars where

> >men/women and black/white/jewish/whatever talk and laugh with wondrous

> >freedom and openness and the vibes are (after all) very good indeed.....

> >(as only then has one, in a sense, earned this pavlovian reward)....

> >

> > fws

> Was it simply me or did this seem amazingly poetic? With a little reworking

> on the format I'd say you've got a hard poem here..

> ..Critter

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:47:40 +0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Baraka

In-Reply-To: <199601112309.SAA04397@pipe5.nyc.pipeline.com>

Right: I saw this term in Paul Breslin's book, "The Psycho-Political

Muse," where Breslin says the "new American poetry" of late 50's/early

60's (including AG as "representative poet" but also Plath, Levertov,

Wright, Duncan, Olson, Snyder etc.)--which saw itself as a VERY

ORIGINAL/RADICAL reaction to academic/formalist poetry of 50's and New

Criticism, a radical expression of the unconscious, irrational etc

etc--was in fact NOT ORIGINAL but an expression of current cultural

discourses including (neo-)Freudian psychology and CONFORMITY CRITICS =

writers like Riesman Glazer Denney's "The Lonely Crowd" (1950), C.W.

Mills' "White Collar" (1951), W.H. Whyte's "The Organization Man" (1956),

V. Packard's "The Hidden Persuaders" (1957) among others: these guys are

attacking the "mindless conformity" of post-war american society, esp. in

terms of corporate hierarchies, "middle class" values, consumerism

etc...Breslin shows the similarities of these arguments to those of

Marcuse and RD Laing in their books in the 60's, (One-Dimensional Man,

The Divided Self), those "bibles" of the "New Left" as I recall.....

(Breslin says AG's Molloch in "Howl" = America as evil superego-beast

= mindless mouthing of currently fashionable cultural discourse, esp.

Freudiansim.....)....fws, taipei

On Thu, 11 Jan 1996, Christopher C. Hayes wrote:

> On Jan 03, 1996 11:02:31, 'Frank Stevenson <t22001@CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>' wrote:

> >"conformity criticism"

> Could you define the above for me?

> Thanks

> Damien

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:39:48 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X

From: mah0rd1 <MAH0RD1@SIVM.SI.EDU>

Subject: beat

I would like to subscribe to the beat-l generation list group

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:23:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat

> I would like to subscribe to the beat-l generation list group

Great -- but what you need to do is send the command to another address:

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

with the message (in the subject line) subscribe beat-l

Also put this message in your text.

I _think_ that'll do it!

See ya,

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:14:52 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Comments: Authenticated sender is <bughouse@bolowski.netcaf.telegate.se>

From: Fredrik Oester <bughouse@BOLOWSKI.NETCAF.TELEGATE.SE>

Subject: kerouac plays

Hello,

We are talking about putting up a theatre play about Kerouac here in

Sweden. I know about three plays so far. Arthur Knight: King of the

Beatniks Martin Duberman: Visions of Kerouac Richard Deacon: Angels

Still Falling (this one was performed in England, so I can find out

more about it myself)

Are there any more, and where can I get a copy of them?

If someone knows anything about this, it would make me a very happy

man...

a big hug from Sweden,

Fredde: bughouse@netcaf.telegate.se

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:30:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: kerouac plays

Wouldn't it be great if there existed some kind of evidence remaining from

the Lillian Hellman exercise... wasn't it tentatively titled "The Beat

Generation"?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:11:36 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: kerouac plays

I saw another Kerouac play at the Black Box Theatre, New York University in

1994 titled "The Last Stop, Will and Testament of Saint Jark Kerouac", by

James P. Mirrione. It was good, not great, seemed to be a mostly amatuer

presentation. I doubt it's been published. Basically it was a series of

encounters with figures like Allen G., Neal, Memere, Burroughs, etc., and

there was something about a imaginary cab ride as a trip back through time.

Hope that helps. You might get a copy through the Theatre Dept. at NYU,

sorry I don't have thier address but it should be pretty easy to find.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:49:09 -0700

Reply-To: abcad@aztec.asu.edu

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JAMES ATKERSON <abcad@AZTEC.ASU.EDU>

Subject: Re: beat

Cool,just send to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

in the message body write: subscribe beat-l

I think that's it................................James.....

of Course life being just a Reflex you know since Everything is

Relative or to sum it ALL UP god being Dead(not to mention in

Terred) LONG LIVE that Upwardlooking Serene Illustrious and Lord

of Creation,MAN.........................................e.e.c.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:50:05 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Diprima

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:29:12 +0800 from

<akir1@SINGNET.COM.SG>

I too enjoy Di Prima's work. Several items listed in Books In Print and she's

working on an autobiography soon to be published.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:15:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Diprima

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

I too enjoy Di Prima's work. Several items listed in Books In Print and she's

working on an autobiography soon to be published.

I heard she was ill. In fact, her 1995 reading tour was cancelled.

Can anyone confirm this? Has she recovered?

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:32:09 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Kiriazis <Kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject: Catching up

>>>

>>>I have been away from my computer and mail for some time and would like

to respond to a few postings. My apologies if I am repeating other's responses.

>>>Inquiry from Fredrik Oester concerning plays about Kerouac... Two years

ago at the Beat Generation Conference at New york University, a new play was

presented: "The Last Stop, Will and Testament of St. Jack Kerouac" written

by James Mirrione and directed by Peter Bennett. The play was commissioned

by NYU for the conference and ran about two weeks in May 1994. The play was

quite good and I spoke to Tom Boras, who composed the music, directed the

band and played saxaphone, about a year later. At that time they were

looking to publish the play and possibly send it on a tour. He said there

was some interest in that. I haven't heard anything since then(last June).

Tom Boras is on the faculty at NYU. This play is worth exploring.

>>>

>>>Someone had asked about the movie released a few years ago dealing with

the Life of Allen Ginsberg. Entitled "The Life and Times of Allen

Ginsberg", it was released in 1992 by 1st Run Features. The director was

Jerry Aronson. I was lucky to find the video at the local video rental

although it may not be widely distributed.

>>>

>>>Finally in response to the individual who asked about the newsletter

"Dharma Beat", it is published twice a year with all kinds of good beat

stuff. Only $5/year- not bad-subscibe for two years! The address is

Dharma beat, Box 1753, Lowell, MA 01853-1753. Seriously, its a great

newsletter.

>>>

>>>Bill Kiriazis

>>>

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:53:57 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: The Buk

I would like to recommend a new movie to all you Bukowski fans.

"Leaving Las Vegas" comes real close to capturing the spirit of

Henry Chinaski's netherworld of alcohol and broken dreams.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:24:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: beat

In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:39:48 EST from

<MAH0RD1@SIVM.SI.EDU>

To subscribe, send mail to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Leave the subject

line blank. In the body of your mail type: subscribe beat-l your name.

That's all there is to it. If you have any problems, contact me at

wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 02:28:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The Buk

I might also recommend reading the book the movie is based on.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: big apple beat

I will be in New York February 1-4 and would like to do stuff around

town. Perhaps I'll go over to the Whitney on Thursday between 4 and 6

(free admission). Perhaps I'll go down to the Berg Collection at the

42nd Street Library and check out the Ann Charters contribution and some

of the other stuff in the holdings.

Does anybody know anything about a place called Tramps? I think Billy Preston

and Buddy Guy are performing there on Friday night and perhaps that show

would be worth seeing. Is the environment in any way appealing or does it

drag the mind, abuse the soul?

Are there any readings on tap? I'm going to miss Corso at the Whitney--I

think he speaks a day or two before I arrive. Are other readers on tap?

Where? At what price?

By the way, thanks for the listing of WWW-documents on Beat Generation

literature and life. Very useful! I look forward to the promised updates.

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:19:26 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mat Awad <mawad01@MAIL.ORION.ORG>

Subject: DR. JONES

Just a curious note...I am taking a Kerouac class at Southwest

Missouri State University (MECCA OF KNOWLEDGE) and have an instructor

whose name, as you might guess, is DR. JONES (Jim?). I think I may have

heard mention of him on this list and was wondering if any of you might

have stories which could embarrass him. Any "hellos" will also be given.

thanks, mat

P.S. If, heaven forbid, someone might consider this a "non-list" topic,

feel free to E-Mail me at mawad01@orion.org.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:31:20 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dan Lauffer <DanLauff@AOL.COM>

Subject: Diane DiPrima

Does anyone know of a bibliography of Diane DiPrima as a poet and as a

publisher. Also what is the relationship of Floating Bear and the American

Theater for Poets Bot had the same address in Cooper Square in mid-60's.

Thanks,

Dan Lauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:24:37 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mitchell Smith <Kerolist@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: DR. JONES

Say hello to him from Mitchell Smith and tell him to give me a call. You

might try embarrassing him with tales that he is a notorious midnight pool

shark.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:13:40 -0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Gabriel Enriquez <gabriel@ATILA.OVERNET.COM.AR>

Subject: 60's music

Hello, I'm from Argentina and I'm very interested in interchanging

information about 60's music from the psychedelic era . I know this is not

exactly the subject of this list, but I would appreciatte any information

about it. Any idea of any related list?

Thanx a lot.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: First Smithsonian Class

Howard Park and myself attended the first class of "Rebel Poets of the 1950s"

last Thursday. Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

a negative response to it. It certainly makes me curious as to why they

would sign up for such a course. It seems as the course will be interesting,

though not in the way originally envisioned. It's like Newty has planted his

own spies in the class to see what we are up to -- the 90s are starting to

feel more and more like the 50s all the time.

Another thought on OTR comes to mind. There is a line, I believe when they

are in Colorado where one of the characters says something like: Dean is

just a con man, an interesting con man, but a con man none-the-less. Of

course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

-- and I include Taoism in the same camp). So I ask the list: Is that the

major conclusion of OTR?

Regards,

Perry Lindstrom

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:12:19 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

>Of

>course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

>they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

Um, uh...I think you should back up this statement. Why would you say this?

>So I ask the list: Is that the

>major conclusion of OTR?

No.

What statement would casue you to think this? How would a line in the book

about Dean Moriarty being a con man cause to you then apply this to

religion? It is out of the blue. Does it also inspire you to ask if all

philosophers are just interesting cons?

>Regards,

>Perry Lindstrom

Regards back at you, keep on trucking dude.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 16:59:04 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Diane DiPrima

>Does anyone know of a bibliography of Diane DiPrima as a poet and as a

>publisher.

You might want to try: "The Beats: Literary Bohemians in Postwar America."

Vol. 16, Parts 1&2 of "Dictionary of Literary Biography." It's edited by Ann

Charters (big surprise) and is published by Gale Research Co. (I have no idea

where to find this). But there is a biobliographical essay on DiPrima in here

written by George F. Butterick. Perhaps this will have what you're looking

for. Sorry I don't have more info. on this. Good luck!

Liz.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: <v01510100ad316bb74974@[128.125.222.39]> from "Timothy K.

Gallaher" at Jan 28, 96 10:12:19 am

> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

I think I get what Perry is saying, and kind of agree. In the book, Sal

Paradise places himself in Dean Moriarty's hands, in a sense "submitting"

to him blindly the way a religous seeker might submit himself to a guru

or other religous leader.

And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

be trusted in any practical sense. To use a real life example, in Carolyn

Cassady's autobiography, "Off The Road," Carolyn describes how she would

not put her home at risk to bail Neal Cassady (the real life Dean) out

of jail because she knew he would run away and she'd lose the home. And

yet she still loved him and wanted him back. The idea is that you can

entrust yourself to a person who can't even be trusted, and one reason a

person might choose to do so is that they see some cosmic truth in the

relationship -- that if there is a God he also cannot be trusted in

any practical sense.

I see this as consistent with Kerouac's world view, and I think it is

one of the hidden ideas that lie beneath "On The Road."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

"people tell me it's a sin

to know and feel too much within"

-- bob dylan

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:05:53 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: God in OTR

You ask if the major conclusion of OTR is that god is a con-man. Well, in the

last page, Jack says, "And don't you know that God is Pooh Bear?" And Pooh

bear is sort of befuddled, but always well-meaning or (as B. Hoff would say

in Tao of Pooh) the epitomy of the uncarved block. Very Zen-like. But not a

con-man.

Who knows why JK made this comment at the end of OTR - as out of context as

it was. Maybe it was some random thought that just came into his mind, maybe

he really meant something by it? (anyone want to pretend to understand how

his mind worked?).

Liz

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:58:43 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

>> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions

-- are

>> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

>And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

>Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

>be trusted in any practical sense.

Quotes coming to mind in considering Neal:

"A young jailkid shrouded in mystery." - OTR

"Con-man extraordinaire" - Dylan and Ferlinghetti (or another Beat poet - I

forget which) on Allen Ginnsberg

Hope these help clarify what Mr. Asher means.

Alan Maddrell

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:00:26 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Diane DiPrima (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM>

You might want to try: "The Beats: Literary Bohemians in Postwar America."

Vol. 16, Parts 1&2 of "Dictionary of Literary Biography." It's edited by Ann

Charters (big surprise) and is published by Gale Research Co. (I have no idea

where to find this).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most libraries will have the entire collection of the DLB - it's about 300

big tomes usually located in the reference section. I don't think you'd

want to try to purchase it as it will be incredible expensive. It is an

excellent reference book on the Beats and Co. though.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:25:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: GINSBERG AND MEDITATION

I was wondering if anyone was aware if Allen Ginsberg studied meditation with

Swami Muktananda before studying with Chogyam Trungpa. If so, was the

association short-lived or what?

Thanks!

Paul McDonald

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:57:40 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: God in OTR

As Liz suggested, I think that it is best to approach much of Kerouac's

writings as "random thoughts" rather than clues to a well-defined worldview.

This was spontanious prose after all!

JK did attempt to outline such worldviews at times, but he was at his best

with spontanious prose. JK was a writer of his experiences, not really a

philosopher. He was always the wide-eyed kid...wondering in awe, not the

priest twirling around the incense.

I believe Jack was a seeker who, like most of us, never exactly made it to

Nirvana (more than a few of us have stopped off for too long at the corner

bar on the path). Most of these thoughts are in the nature of speculations

about what might be around the corner, figeratively or literally, not

conclusions. Jack as seeker is one reason why OTR and the other road books

are most appealing to young people at whatever age the young or young at

heart are in a seeker mode.

BY THE WAY - Any Washington, DC area devotees of this list are invited to a

party at my place on Capitol Hill this Sat., Feb. 3, e mail Hpark4@aol.com

for details. Let's continue the discussion in person!

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Lawlor <wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: your message of Sun Jan 28 11:03:16 -0500 1996

Glad to learn of course on Rebel Poets of the fifties. Please, if you continue

to attend, keep us posted. The attack on OTR is predictable. That's why Jack

went out and got drunk, isn't it?

Complaints that I have heard in class are that the book is boring. It

rambles, the detractors say, in the way Huckleberry Finn rambles, and both OTR

and HF are turds. Detractors also object to the treatment of women. Why

glorify a bigamist?

Bill of the North Woods

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:40:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Beats and Buddhism

Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

notes, alas.

Respond privately if you like.

Thanks,

Dan Terkla

Dept. of English

Illinois Wesleyan University

Bloomington, IL 61702

(309) 556-3649

terkla@titan.iwu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:27:01 -0800

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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

At 03:40 PM 1/29/96 -0600, you wrote:

>Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

>into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

>term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

>Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

>notes, alas.

>Respond privately if you like.

>Thanks,

>Dan Terkla

>Dept. of English

>Illinois Wesleyan University

>Bloomington, IL 61702

>(309) 556-3649

>terkla@titan.iwu.edu

About the beats in general I can't say. Gary Snyder and Kerouac acquired

their interests independently and previous to their meeting one another.

In terms of Kerouac I think that his initial "discovery" of Buddhism came in

reaction to the Cassadys embrace of Edgar Cayce. I think Kerouac did not

share their enthusiasm for Cayce but shared their interest in spiritual

matters and this lead him to the library where he found Buddhism. I think

he intially found a lot of Buddhist writings in French.

I believe that Ginsberg did not share Kerouac's interest in Buddhism til

much later. Burroughs never has shared the interest.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 07:56:55 -0500

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From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs and Jesus

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

I read in a book (sorry, don't have the author's name or the title handy),

but I believe that the title was _New York in the Fifties_, where Ginsberg

told the author about Burroughs' works of late:

something about Burroughs just completing a trilogy

something about him living in KS and recently celebrating a b'day (77 i

think)

And something about him writing a novel with Jesus Christ as the protagonist,

"breaking the fundamentalists' monopoly on Jesus".

I realize fully that Ginsberg may have been mistaken, misled, or just plain

lying.

But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

otherwise-main-character?

Regards,

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:37:32 +0000

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From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burroughs & Jesus

For a hilarious Jesus mention in WSB, check out the lates release GHOST

OF CHANCE, written in late eighties. Some may find the Jesus story

offensive, guess that's why we love Bill eh?

Best

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:07:20 EST

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500 from

<LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:03:16 -0500 Perry Lindstrom said:

>Howard Park and myself attended the first class of "Rebel Poets of the 1950s"

>last Thursday. Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

>a negative response to it. It certainly makes me curious as to why they

>would sign up for such a course. It seems as the course will be interesting,

>though not in the way originally envisioned. It's like Newty has planted his

>own spies in the class to see what we are up to -- the 90s are starting to

>feel more and more like the 50s all the time.

>Another thought on OTR comes to mind. There is a line, I believe when they

>are in Colorado where one of the characters says something like: Dean is

>just a con man, an interesting con man, but a con man none-the-less. Of

>course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions -- are

>they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>-- and I include Taoism in the same camp). So I ask the list: Is that the

>major conclusion of OTR?

>Regards,

>Perry Lindstrom

I can't agree that this is a major or even a *minor* conclusion that I would dr

aw from OTR. But it's an interesting notion and I'd like to hear more of your

thoughts about it. Have you seen the exhibit at the National Portrait Gallery.

I'd be interested in any comparisons to the Whitney exhibit.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:11:32 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500 from

<wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:44:22 -0500 Bill Lawlor said:

>Glad to learn of course on Rebel Poets of the fifties. Please, if you continue

>to attend, keep us posted. The attack on OTR is predictable. That's why Jack

>went out and got drunk, isn't it?

>Complaints that I have heard in class are that the book is boring. It

>rambles, the detractors say, in the way Huckleberry Finn rambles, and both OTR

>and HF are turds. Detractors also object to the treatment of women. Why

>glorify a bigamist?

>Bill of the North Woods

"Glorify a bigamist?" What myopic readers! Bigamy, sex, cars, music -- these

are not the real issue. The point is that Neal wants it ALL!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:33:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: First Smithsonian Class

In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800 from

<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:15:51 -0800 Levi Asher said:

>> >course this is a question we have to ask ourselves about all religions --

>are

>> >they just cons. Of the major religions, the one that comes closest to

>> >saying: "God IS an interesting con man," would be Buddhism (especially Zen

>> >-- and I include Taoism in the same camp).

>I think I get what Perry is saying, and kind of agree. In the book, Sal

>Paradise places himself in Dean Moriarty's hands, in a sense "submitting"

>to him blindly the way a religous seeker might submit himself to a guru

>or other religous leader.

>And yet he recognizes that Dean is a natural con-man, and that while

>Dean can always be trusted to find some kind of magic in life, he cannot

>be trusted in any practical sense. To use a real life example, in Carolyn

>Cassady's autobiography, "Off The Road," Carolyn describes how she would

>not put her home at risk to bail Neal Cassady (the real life Dean) out

>of jail because she knew he would run away and she'd lose the home. And

>yet she still loved him and wanted him back. The idea is that you can

>entrust yourself to a person who can't even be trusted, and one reason a

>person might choose to do so is that they see some cosmic truth in the

>relationship -- that if there is a God he also cannot be trusted in

>any practical sense.

>I see this as consistent with Kerouac's world view, and I think it is

>one of the hidden ideas that lie beneath "On The Road."

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

> "people tell me it's a sin

> to know and feel too much within"

> -- bob dylan

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know. I have a problem associating Moriarty with God. Dean too is a s

eeker, a man with his own quest on several levels. Both Dean and Sal are looki

ng for IT!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:39:13 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: big apple beat

In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500 from

<wlawlor@UWSPMAIL.UWSP.EDU>

On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:21:42 -0500 Bill Lawlor said:

>I will be in New York February 1-4 and would like to do stuff around

>town. Perhaps I'll go over to the Whitney on Thursday between 4 and 6

>(free admission). Perhaps I'll go down to the Berg Collection at the

>42nd Street Library and check out the Ann Charters contribution and some

>of the other stuff in the holdings.

>Does anybody know anything about a place called Tramps? I think Billy Preston

>and Buddy Guy are performing there on Friday night and perhaps that show

>would be worth seeing. Is the environment in any way appealing or does it

>drag the mind, abuse the soul?

>Are there any readings on tap? I'm going to miss Corso at the Whitney--I

>think he speaks a day or two before I arrive. Are other readers on tap?

>Where? At what price?

>By the way, thanks for the listing of WWW-documents on Beat Generation

>literature and life. Very useful! I look forward to the promised updates.

>Bill of the North Woods

This might be of interest to you as well as others on the list: Amiri Baraka e

t al. will be appearing Friday Feb. 2nd (James Joyce's birthday) at the Westbet

h Theater 151 Bank Street, NYC. Tickets $15. Call 212 631 1065 for more info.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:02:55 +0000

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From: apm5%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Jesus

>something about him living in KS and recently celebrating a b'day (77 i

>think)

Lives in Lawrence, Kansas. I recently purchased a "Happy 80th Birthday

William Burroughs" book published by Temple Press, so either the book you

have is quite old or someone is very mistaken. I doubt Ginnsberg would make

so embarassing an error.

>But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

>Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

>otherwise-main-character?

Personally I have heard nothing about Jesus as a main character himself, but

I am in the backwaters at the moment, so this is not a surprise! I know that

a few of his characters bear a sort of resemblence in their benevolence.

Alan Maddrell

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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:44:41 +0000

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From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

>Can anyone out there give me information on when and how the Beats got

>into Buddhism? I know the "Why?" but realized after teaching them last

>term that I couldn't make the historical connections. I remember Anne

>Waldman and others speaking about this two summers ago at NYU but took no

>notes, alas.

there's many reasons why the Beats got into buddhism - a lot to do, perhaps,

with the West Coast connection, Alan Watts and co. But there is a wider

historical link with Eastern religions in American (and European) thought -

a book I'm just tackling at the moment (with regard specifically to

background on Kerouac's involvement with Buddhism re. Mexico City Blues) is

'Zen and American Thought' by Van Meter Ames, (Honolulu: University of Hawai

Press, 1962, Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 62-12672) which

attempts to contextualise the American interest in Zen. Ames goes back to

Locke and forwards through Jefferson, Emerson, who he calls the American

Bodhisattva, Thoreau, Whitman etc. He is making a specific connection

between Zen and a large starnd of American culture. Haven't read it all

yet, so can't say how successful his argument is, and he doesn't deal with

the Beats specifically. But it may be of some help.

Rod Warner, University of Aberytswyth, Wales, UK.

raw3@aber.ac.uk

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 07:46:13 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Dan Terkla <terkla@TITAN.IWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Beats and Buddhism

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.iwu.edu>

In-Reply-To: <199601311045.KAA24363@nje.earn-relay.ja.net>

Many thanks to all who responded to my query about the early connections

between the Beats and Buddhism. Off to the library.

Dan Terkla

Dept.of English

Illinois Wesleyan University

Bloomington, IL 61702

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:28:35 -0500

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From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs birthday Friday

Hey again folks.

William Miller here.

Alan Madrell wrote about Burroughs 80th birthday book.

Just to clear up any confusion about the old man's age:

He turns 82 on Friday, February 5...

thanks to the 3 who answered me about "Ghost of Chance". AG was certainly

exaggerating in the quote, where he says that Burroughs was "writing up a

storm". At less than 100 pages, Ghost of Chance is certainly no storm.

Does anyone have any recent info on the old man's health or productivity as

of late?

William Miller.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:11:59 -0500

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From: Igor Satanovsky <Isat@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs and Jesus

>But has anyone on the list heard of ANY work by Burroughs which features

>Jesus Christ as the protagonist, hero, anti-hero, or

>otherwise-main-character?

Just a hint: Check out Burroughs recording called, if i remember correctly,

"Dead City Radio".

i.s.

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:16:20 -0500

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From: Ted Pelton <Notlep@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: OTR negative response

"Many of the folks were reading OTR for the first time and had

a negative response to it"

One legitimate negative reponse I think has to do with the casual disregard

the protagonists have for personal responsibility. And I don't say this as a

cultural conservative myself. But ditching marriages and women bringing up

your kids is a hard thing to justify in real life; the defense of it comes a)

by recontextualizing the novel and pointing out how conformist the 50s were

(as has been spoken to often by many on the list), and b) pointing to Sal's

defense of Dean in the book, when he's "on trial" before all the women (a

good scene to have in the book, showing JK wasn't eliding the issue but was

conscious of the pain caused innocents by the constant pursuit of experience

by the men in their lives); Sal says something to the effect of: you all WANT

to hang out with this guy, are interested in him, and he is who he is so you

have to take the bad with the good. But rereading the article on Children of

the Beats (on the list a few months ago) makes clear that there's plenty to

dislike about the lives Beat explorations sanctioned. You can say that these

guys were involved in spiritual quests, but what religious philosophy

condones leaving people who depend on you miserable through carelessness and,

indeed, selfish pursuit of your own spiritual ends?

But I like the book and these writers -- the argument I'm making is not my

own overriding concern. Which leads me to another aspect of OTR rarely

mentioned, it seems. That is, for all its exhileration with experience and

language, it is finally a very SAD book. Most of Kerouac is indeed permeated

with misery and lament. Even Dean at the end is stuck in a type of rut, and

Sal himself experiences betrayal by Dean when left sick in Mexico: "Okay,

Dean, I'll say nothing." Abandoning social structures does come at a price

-- the best defense against the above accusations, to my mind, that the novel

acknowledges that these lives (Sal's own, Dean's, etc.) can't be maintained,

destroy too much. And yet, live the other way? Not on your life.

On "pooh bear" at end, briefly: isn't this the projection of what the people

living in these sleepy households the narrator surveys at the end of the

book, what THEY are thinking, not the narrator's view at all? Be careful

making the mistake of confusing fiction with actual authors lives, even in

such an autobiographically influenced work as this.

Ted Pelton