beat list 1996

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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:25:12 +0000

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From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: Burroughs birthday Friday (fwd)

Does anyone have any recent info on the old man's health or productivity as

of late?

William Miller.

Hello William

Do you, or any others on list, know what happen to the Opera Bill was

involved with about the ROSWELL UFO crash? This gets a mention in the

Barry Miles biography. Also, I read that Bill was presenting a TV series

on his favourite cats! Has anyone any more information about this, has

it been broadcast yet? Is anyone sending birthday wishes to WSB

Communications?

Daniel

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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:01:19 -0500

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From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: Go

Does anyone know where I can find a character key for "GO"? I think I have

who's who figured out in most instances, but there's still some I'm not so

sure of. Thanks to anyone that can help.

-Liz

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:39:26 +0800

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From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: CHANCE???

In-Reply-To: <E490BC3001C93A7C@-SMF->

This (being guided by one's pre-conscious sediments/forces) is like

fortune-telling (e.g. "throwing" the coins with the "I Ching")? "Art"

then becomes essentially a kind of (self-activated) "fortune-telling"?

fws

On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Eckert, Molly K wrote:

> Jules

> Cage used to throw papers with notes and and other musical themes in the

> air and then choose them randomly. However, even thought that this

> choosing was chance the notes and such that he wrote on the papers were

> anything but. He knew maybe not consciously but subconsciously what was

> going to be on the papers.

> Have you ever heard of Tabula Rasa? we are all born as a blank slate.

> Our experiences and memories are what molds us. These experiences are

> always deeply imbedded into our subconscious. Even if it was just

> something that we saw or heard for a brief minute. They still lead us

> around. Therefore even the way John Cage chose his papers was not

> chance. He may not havce realized it but his memories and experiecnces

> forced him to choose the papers in a certain way.

> Molly

> MKEckert@cedarcrest.edu

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:40:40 +0800

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From: Frank Stevenson <t22001@SUN3.CC.NTNU.EDU.TW>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

Comments: To: Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

In-Reply-To: <23109631.114119691@RedwoodFN.org>

On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Dan Barth wrote:

> I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned *Steppenwolf*. At

> the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

> something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

> *Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

right....which once again shows the direct impact of 50's beats on

60's hippies in the usa (and maybe w. europe)? "steppenwolf" suddenly

became "all the rage" among univ. students in the late 60's, as i recall,

virtually "out of the blue"--people then were more aware of the jung-hesse

connections than the beat-hesse connections, i think (just as usa 50's

culture was strangely "erased" from the collective 60's unconcious by the

much-more-"current" discourses of sartre, laing, jung, heidegger, marcuse,

not to mention marx/lenin/mao, taoism, buddhism, etc etc) (a curious

phenomenon, no?)-- quickly followed by "narcissus & goldmund,"

"glass bead game" (a cult item that, brought into some sort of cultural

discursive relation with the I Ching as i recall), "siddhartha" etc.

(beatles high on acid in india, "let it be," lennon still had

a decade or so....heidegger's gelassenheit, "releasement;" laing

(the "true" precursor of that contemporary cultural guru, deleuze) taking

acid to talk with schizophrenic patients in england....).....

fws, taipei

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:58:37 -0500

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From: Nels A Nelson <Nels68Me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Letterman Guest

A quick note...

A 14 year old guest on tonight's Letterman show (tonight being 2/1), who is

named Natalie Portman and who I believe is some sort of film actress, was

discussing her education, and she mentioned that her history teacher, whom

she classified as weird, recommended OTR to her. Having read it, she can't

understand why her teacher would recommend a druggy book. She stated that it

was a story about using cocaine, heroine, and smoking tea. From her

reaction, I don't think she would recommend the book. Just thought some of

you might find it interesting.

out for now...

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:29:36 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Go

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:01:19 -0500 from <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

I'm not sure if I remember seeing a character key. If you don't find one, it m

ight be fun to construct one on the list.

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:30:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Character references

I'm sorry I discarded the original message, but someone asked for a

reference list of characters in _Go_. I know Ann has a comprehensive one

in her autobiography of Jack's works, but all this got me thinking.

I am not attacvking the notion of having one, or the original requestor's

motives for having one (I find it fascinating myself) but I was wondering

what the list thought about the use of these lists.

Should we read the texts of the Beats in and of themselves without reference

to the historical figures who were the basis for the literature or should

we look at the work as "real"?

When we concentrate too much on say Dean as Neal, are we allowing the

works to stand on their own. One of my main problems with the Beats is

that they are often given discussion solely on the merit of their

Pop culture status. Their literature is not held on par with other writers

because of this and if we are constantly grounding their works in the

historic or Pop aspect are we doing them justice?

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:10:41 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: OTR

The discussion on K`s attitude to family values in OTR has been most

interesting; I tend to agree with the contributor who said we should not

necessarily conflate K`s personal ideas with those of the OTR characters,

even Sal. Even then, Sal tried to form a traditional family bond - with

Terry and her son, but was defeated by the brutally hard work and

sharecroppers` wages(certainly not by the lure of another woman). I submit

that K`s own view`s on family, which are of the warmest and most loyal kind,

are to be found in abundance in Sax, Visions of Gerard and the two beautiful

Christmas essays he wrote. Sal`s moral neutrality towards Dean is explained,

in my view, by the twin undercurrents in OTR of spiritual desolation( the

failure to locate "old Dean Moriarty...the father we never found") and the

physical threat of immolation in an atomic war. Of course, the two themes

are related to each other. As John Clellon Holmes has written (in his

brilliant essay on Gershon Legman), Holmes`generation felt "paralyzed...by

that suspicion of powerlessness to affect events which was perhaps the war`s

subtlest and most damaging legacy...". Gerry Nicosia has written that K`s

life and work reflect a kind of post-traumatic stress resulting from the

disorienting effect on K of the war and of course the personal tragedies in

Jack`s family. Viewed in this light, we can conclude that K in OTR was

describing (and decrying) a moral vacuum caused by cataclysmic war and

spiritual desolation.

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:11:22 -0500

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From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: K & family

Just an addendum to my last posting to clarify an apparent contradiction: I

referred to works of K in which he adopts a warm, traditionalist stance

towards the nuclear family, yet I also commented on K`s non-judgemental view

of apparently irresponsible actions which produce joy or reflect a

comradeship of the road. However, I meant that K`s views on family appear to

reflect a paradise lost: the works I referred to on family, such as Sax and

Visions of Gerard, all pertain to the pre-war period, when K was a child or

teen. He seemed to think that post-war anxietys and the aging process,

viewed agaist the backdrop of an increasingly conformist society, precluded

a return to the small town, traditionalist values he grew up with. The

spiritual quests of OTR and TDB were authentic attempts to resolve this

dilemma. Sadly for K, few critics in the 50`s could understand what he was

trying to do, so myopic was the time, wedded as it was to (in the words of

the excellent liner notes to the Beat Generation box set of recordings) the

"officially approved reality".

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:28:50 -0500

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From: William Miller <KenofWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: WSB Communications

List people,

Burroughs birthday IS Feb. 5, of course, but Feb. 5 is Monday, not Friday,

obviously.

The old man turns 82. MONDAY!

I don't know anything about the opera, or the cat show. sorry.

My apologies.

William Miller

PS I dont' know how to get to WSB Communications via the net or the snailmail

process. If anyone has an address, please send it this way.

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:15:33 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

>On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Dan Barth wrote:

>> I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned

>>*Steppenwolf*. At

>> the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

>> something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

>> *Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

> right....which once again shows the direct impact of 50's beats on

>60's hippies in the usa (and maybe w. europe)? "steppenwolf" suddenly

>became "all the rage" among univ. students in the late 60's,

<snip>

> fws, taipei

Nice observation,

don't forget to duck and cover in March. (just kidding--I hope)

Tim

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:55:47 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: beatless

friday afternoon or p.o.e.t.s. day

- (Piss Off Early Tomorrows Saturday)

-----

hello its me its me calling out your name

hello its me its me running scared again

seen this world before? - i'm already there!

seen this world before! - i'm already there?

save your books and your pills...i don't need them - i'm there!

jack & neal were real but just two men

sal & dean were seen but just two men

searchingrunningspiritualpain

carskicksstarsbeatzeninsane!

they walked the lonely road

you know the one you're folks don't know

had no time for love and devotion

had no time for old fashioned potions

found in jazzclubspubs thenwhen wandering lonely streets at dawn

escaping faces cold alone

in everyman in everyland in everykick you understand?

i do hope you understand.

have you read they're tale?

of how they lost & loved & beat & failed?

YOU decide! like everychild! everyeye! everysky above your head

i hope that you know they're far from being dead

like i said.

in everyman! in everyland! in everykick! you understand?

thatyouareme

andsoami

theyknewthat

stilltheytried

tolivealife

rawandblind

just ask cody he knew time...

youknowit'sthere butyoujustcan'tseeit

youknowit'sthere butyoujustcan'treadit

they came inontheirown and theyleftontheirown

forget the lovers they've known and they're friends ontheroad

you know

you come into this life on your own

and you leave

on your own

- 0 -

its a poem!? if anyone understand's it then kindly

explain it to me because i certainly don't. and i wrote

it! most of it is stolen/altered from 'the verve' lyrics

that are currently playing around my mind. killed

half an hour anyway.

what's happening to the group reading of 'on the road'

that was supposed to have started at xmas? i was

expecting hundreds of new insights, expert opinions

and mindless dribble to be molesting the lists by now.

so far there's been very little.

no more.

joe.

----------

' don't want to live, don't want to die

baby i just want to fly

and you and i

are gonna live forever '

- noel gallagher, oasis

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:15:34 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Liz Prato <Lapislove@AOL.COM>

Subject: What is UP with this chance thing....

We discussed the "Chance in art" theme for a good month not to long ago

(November/December) - how did it get resurected again?

BTW - Happy Birthday, Billy-boy

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:46:54 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Mark Fisher <Fisher@PROGRAMART.COM>

Subject: Re[2]: Go

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

I'm not sure if I remember seeing a character key. If you don't find one, it m

ight be fun to construct one on the list.

Here are the easy ones:

Pasternack: Kerouac

Stofsky: Ginsberg

Kennedy: Cassady

Hobbes: Holmes

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:15:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk9403@SLEEPY.NEBRWESLEYAN.EDU>

Subject: Re: WSB Communications

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.NebrWesleyan.edu>

In-Reply-To: <960202122849_134078278@emout05.mail.aol.com>

Hello:

> PS I dont' know how to get to WSB Communications via the net or the

> snailmail process. If anyone has an address, please send it this way.

If you care to, you can try to reach William S. Burroughs:

William Burroughs Communications

PO Box 147

Lawrence, KS 66044

I've never seen an Email address.

I did however hear a rumor that WSB Communications was publishing

a CD ROM. But that is entirely rumor from a friend in Lawrence.

Anyone else hear this?

BTW, I'm working on an EXTENSIVE WSB web site for my senior English

thesis at Nebraska Wesleyan University, Lincoln. It will be the

largest most comprehensive WSB site available on the net today.

Basically, it will be a non-linear hypertext system with loads of

graphics, animation, sound-bites . . . heavy on the interactive

side. Of course, the main ingredient is original content: my

opinions and research; however, I will also be including digital

versions of a few WSB books and essays as well as other people's work.

In a month or so I will have enough of the project completed to request

beta testers and proof readers..I also want web design comments, etc..

If you are interested in helping me out (and would like to be in the

credits) send me some email.....also-- if you have written anything

WSB related that you would like to have published on-line, I'd

be happy to include it in my site.

Regards,

Luke

/\ /\ /\ /\ | Luke Kelly

/\/ \/ \/\/ __o / \/\ | lpk@kdsi.net or

/\ / / \ / \<,_ / \ | lpk9403@NebrWesleyan.Edu

/ / ..... \ ...(_)/-(_).. .. \ | http://www.kdsi.net

Please don't drive. Petrol stinks!| http://Sleepy.NebrWesleyan.Edu:5001

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:08:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Scott Weintraub <scottw@WAM.UMD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references

In-Reply-To: <960202.103457.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Peter McGahey wrote:

> I'm sorry I discarded the original message, but someone asked for a

> reference list of characters in _Go_. I know Ann has a comprehensive one

> in her autobiography of Jack's works, but all this got me thinking.

To the person who wanted the list:

(on the back cover of the Thunder's Mouth Press version)

David Stofsky = Allen Ginsberg

Gene Pasternak = Jack Kerouac

Hart Kennedy = Neal Cassady

Albert Ancke = Herbert Huncke

And then, I think that...

Dinah = Luanne Henderson

I've forgotten a little since reading "Go." Was Verger the guy who made

the fatal mistake of sticking his head out of a subway window? I forgot

his name and I know that he's mentioned in conversation in "Jack's Book"

but I wasn't able to find it within two minutes--so I gave up.

> I am not attacvking the notion of having one, or the original requestor's

> motives for having one (I find it fascinating myself) but I was wondering

> what the list thought about the use of these lists.

Well there's an anti-hero worship vibe on the list but that's not to be

confused with biography. Personally, I find the biography of these boys

fascinating, too. In my opinion, the beats aren't just about literature.

They're about America, too. This is what attracts me to them so much.

I spent some time out of college and this is the beginning of my second

semester after returning. I feel a lot of the same angst and

frustrations that they did. The beats are wholly products of America.

My whole outlook on college paralells that of somebody who grew up in the

ghettos and started dealing when they were ten, mugging when they were

twelve, robbing convience stores when they were fourteen, and finally

murdering when they're sixteen. And when they are arrested and asked

why they did it, they might say, "I was forced into this way of life. I

had no choice." This is exactly how I feel about college... and I know I

have a choice but in many ways I don't. I was forced into this way of

life. Both of my parents went to college, all of my buddies from high

school are currently in college. Although it sounds ridiculous, it is very

difficult for me to find happiness within the social constructs I've been

raised, the only world I know. I am America and so are/were Jack, Neal,

Allen, etc. I don't know any better.

But I digress...

I said earlier that they're more than just a literary genre. They were a

(I hate to say it) scene. It's important to know all about the Six Gallery

Reading, what preceeded it, what happened after it. And considering that

most of the stuff they wrote was almost wholly biographical, we're reading

stories of their movement or non-movement or whatever you want to call it.

Speaking of "Go," Holmes's Cassady is very much different than Kerouac's

Cassady. Exactly who were these guys? Their lives were America and to

understand what they're trying to say, we first have to discover who they

are/were.

There was a recent thread about first-time OTR readers not enjoying their

experience. This is a book that becomes a hell of a lot more interesting

when you understand who these people were, where they came from, what they

became, etc.

> Should we read the texts of the Beats in and of themselves without reference

> to the historical figures who were the basis for the literature or should

> we look at the work as "real"?

> When we concentrate too much on say Dean as Neal, are we allowing the

> works to stand on their own. One of my main problems with the Beats is

> that they are often given discussion solely on the merit of their

> Pop culture status. Their literature is not held on par with other writers

> because of this and if we are constantly grounding their works in the

> historic or Pop aspect are we doing them justice?

I think that any critical and intelligent reader is capable of separating the

historical figures from the work, itself. So it is entirely possible,

and even recommended to both read (listen to) the words and let them

stand alone but to also think about the men behind the poetry and/or prose.

As for their pop culture status, anybody who truly knows anything, knows

that they are entirely misrepresented in the media. According to my

television, the ghost of Jack Kerouac is standing right now on an

anonymous rainy street corner in Grenwich Village. He's got on his

khakis, he's wearing his trenchcoat, and he's smoking his cigarette. In

a few minutes, he'll walk down the street to a bar where he'll have a few

beers, smoke a joint or two, and turn his attention to the beautiful

woman at the corner table. He's slick as shit and so he'll walk over to

her, read some poetry, snap his fingers to the jazz band that's playing

and one hour later, he'll be back at her apartment having cocktails.

He's Mac Daddy 2000, remember? He'll talk to her, tell her what she

wants to hear, kiss her ever-so-slightly on the neck a few times, slowly

working his way up to those lips where he'll plant one that she'll

remember for the rest of her life. And while they're doing that, *snap*

goes the bra, *carress* *carress* goes Jack's hand, and... I think you

get the picture.

Anybody who has read the novels knows that this is entirely untrue. And

so, as far as the hero worship goes, it's a moot topic because we all

know that it's a load of bullshit. We all know that Kerouac was you, me,

and that guy walking down the street. He fucks up all the time, doesn't

quite understand women, he's confused, insecure, immature, and thinks too

hard. This is the Jack that is me, the Jack I love.

*****************************************************************************

* Scott Weintraub - scottw@wam.umd.edu - College Park, Maryland *

*****************************************************************************

* "The bounties of space, of infinite outwardness, were three: empty *

* heroics, low comedy, and pointless death." -Kurt Vonnegut *

*****************************************************************************

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:58:49 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references

Comments: To: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

Well, why can't we who "know better" use such character lists for

our own quiet purposes and realize their limited value? You're right,

the folks behind such pseudonyms ARE interesting, and that alone

should be enough.

Those who've tended to detract from the literary worth of Beat

writers/poets will do so anyway, and confusing "real people" with

characters is only a smokescreen for their prejudices. Note Cassidy's

bust for pot after OTR became such a hit. The society was without real

recourse in its attempts to damage the book as a book (though it's

been tried with little success, especially in the years immediately

following publication (OTR being on the bestseller list for 4 weeks

wasn't anything to sniff at), and so the lifestyle was attacked and

a lot of extraneous garbage was thrown into the mix to distract

from the works' value. Luckily (I think) we know better now.

But there is an amount of sociology here, that can be addressed

without detracting from the literariness of what we are reading and

admiring. As a "movement", the Beats were a particularly homegrown

phenomenon (despite its parallel Brit faction, "The Angry Young

Men"), and as an "American" movement it also deserves that kind of

attention:

As Gregory Corso once said (and this is grossly

paraphrasing that little elfin beauty) that once the Beat

Generation was about literature; now it's about

"everything".

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:06:59 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Go

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

I'm not absolutely certain (it's been years since I read Charters'

book), but I think she does some of the ID-ing for the characters in

GO informally in her bio of K.

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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 23:04:43 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references

>I've forgotten a little since reading "Go." Was Verger the guy who made

>the fatal mistake of sticking his head out of a subway window? I forgot

>his name and I know that he's mentioned in conversation in "Jack's Book"

>but I wasn't able to find it within two minutes--so I gave up.

His real name was Bill Canastra.

And I think Kerouac's second wife was living in his loft after he died when

got together with her, described at the end of On The Road. She was/is (I

assume she is alive) the mother of Jan kerouac. She may have been

Canastra's girlfriend but I am not sure about this.

Tim

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Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 02:22:30 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Andrew Howald <103256.1311@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: WSB & TSE

>> Also, I read that Bill was presenting a TV series

>>on his favourite cats! Has anyone any more information about this, has

>>it been broadcast yet?

Now this is something. I've been more & more interested in WSB's affinities

with

TSE lately. (T. S. Eliot, that is.) They have St. Louis & Harvard in common.

And

both specialized in a cut-up style, layering multiple voices. (Somewhere I came

across a cut-up by Burroughs of The Waste Land--cut-up of a cut-up, all-out

puree.--

Does anyone know where I saw this?) Now I hear that WSB is doing some sort of

cat

thing. Is it conscious emulation?

BTW, TSE reading the end of Book II of the Waste Land sounds just like our

birthday

boy.

Andrew

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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 02:10:51 +1300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Tim <tching@VOYAGER.CO.NZ>

Subject: Missing Texts

Could somebody please help me. I'm trying to get hold of the following texts

by Jack. I've searched everywhere and come up empty handed. These are the

books I'm after.

Pull my daisy

Wake up

Some of the dharma

Thanks.

Tim.

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Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:27:09 EST

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From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Character references (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

> When we concentrate too much on say Dean as Neal, are we allowing the

> works to stand on their own. One of my main problems with the Beats is

> that they are often given discussion solely on the merit of their

> Pop culture status. Their literature is not held on par with other writers

> because of this and if we are constantly grounding their works in the

> historic or Pop aspect are we doing them justice?

I think that any critical and intelligent reader is capable of separating the

historical figures from the work, itself. So it is entirely possible,

and even recommended to both read (listen to) the words and let them

stand alone but to also think about the men behind the poetry and/or prose.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to resort to cliches, but don't look at this in terms of preaching

to the converted. This is in many ways a critical time for the Beat writers

in that they are near the edge of becoming recognized literary figures in the

academic canon. Maybe that is exactly what they sought to avoid, but it

seems that Allen selling his papers and many of the feuds with Jack's estate

are based on the hope that they will become recoginzed by the literary

community. Obviously if we are on this list, we perceive them as something

beyond the media portrayal of black turtlenecked bohemian snapping their

fingers. In order to get others to even pick them up, maybe we need to

get away from the Pop aspects and that may only be able to be done by

looking at the texts in and of themselves.

But then, do I really want those people reading and discussing these works?

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 13:34:11 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Missing Texts (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Could somebody please help me. I'm trying to get hold of the following texts

by Jack. I've searched everywhere and come up empty handed. These are the

books I'm after.

Pull my daisy

Wake up

Some of the dharma

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there was a book on pull my daisy at the Whitney shop, but I don't recall if

it had a transcript in it. Anyway, you'd need to get there in the next

twelve hours since it closes permanently on Sunday.

For new copies of any Beat text try City Lights. Their selection is phenomenal

City Lights

261 Columbus Avenue

San Francisco, CA 94133

415-362-8193

They have a web address but I can't find it.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 16:42:19 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Perry Lindstrom <LindLitGrp@AOL.COM>

Subject: More OTR Ravings

I had started out to respond to all the interesting comments on

my proposition that the major conclusion of OTR is that "God is an

interesting con man." Instead I will try to be a little more

clear on what I meant by this. First what I didn't mean: Neal

Cassady is God. As others have well documented, Neal was

certainly thought of as a con man by most, perhaps all of his

friends. However, I am not trying to say that because he was a

con man he was somehow God-like. What I think Kerouac was doing

either intentionally or unintentionally was to develop a metaphor

based on autobiographical material which examines the ambivalent

role that our beliefs play in our lives -- either our beliefs in

one another -- is this person/friend trying to con me? -- or our

religious beliefs -- is this religion the Truth? Both of these

themes run constantly throughout OTR.

Nor do a think that Jack Kerouac ever sat down and said: "The

major conclusion of OTR is that God is an interesting con man."

What he did do is become very interested in Buddhism. He

finished OTR in April 1951 and became interested in Buddhism in

early 1954. If you ask a Christian whether Christ was the son of

God or an interesting con man he or she will most definitely

answer -- well I don't need to say, but if you ask a Buddhist

whether the Buddha was a manifestation of God or an interesting

con man he or she is more than likely to say "YES." Which is to

say these are not mutually exclusive categories. We must learn

to live with our ambivalences -- and with the postmodern

condition (is JK more PoMo than we thought?).

So when I say that this is the major conclusion of OTR, what I am

saying is this is where Kerouac found himself at the end of the

book. A recent post mentioned the sadness of OTR, and this is

very telling. I think that Kerouac's "real" name in the book is

"Sad Paradise" which captures exactly what this ambivalence is

about.

A note on Liz, Howard and others' comments about random thoughts.

I don't think it is possible for people to have random thoughts -

- in the statistical sense of the word. All our thoughts are

biased (statistically speaking) by our genetic makeup, our

upbringing, and prior random events -- but they are our thoughts.

What Burroughs tried to do with cut-ups (and others like John

Cage) was to introduce more randomness into the process. But

Burroughs came to believe that even these were not random at all

but "were prophetic subliminal announcements." Literary Outlaw,

p322 - Morgan's words not WSB's. I would contend that automatic

writing is not random thinking but is the result of the artist's

prior experiences, investigations, discipline, talent etc. -- but

perhaps I am beating up on a straw man here since the prior use

of the word may have had a different connotation for Liz and Howard.

I agree with Liz and others that I can not know what Kerouac

"intended" when he wrote the line about God and Winnie the Pooh,

but I can not imagine a less Cassady-like character than Winnie

the Pooh -- so in that way I would not say that it is a random

thought. Intentional or not, WtP-as-God is the perfect

antithesis to the thesis which I have put forward above and

therefore its interjection here would lend credence to the notion

that JK was actively and intentionally mulling this possibility

over.

As regards the book's final line: "...I think of

Dean Moriarty, I even think of Old Dean Moriarty the father we

never found, I think of Dean Moriarty," which invokes a trinity. I can

not say whether Kerouac intended to invoke a trinity, but given

his background I would not say it was random.

Anyhow, because we know so much biographical information about

Kerouac, trying to figure out meanings intended, unintended or as

Levi says, "secret" becomes great sport -- of course in the end

the only person I am really revealing anything about is myself --

but that my friends is a whole other kettle o' fish.

Happy Gertrude Stein's Birthday!

Perry Lindstrom

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Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:15:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Jaeger <pjaeger@BOSSHOG.ARTS.UWO.CA>

Subject: subscribe

does anyone here now how I subscribe to this list?

pjaeger@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 21:36:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Missing Texts (fwd)

"Pull My Daisy" was, I think, a film with Ginsberg, Jack, etc. Did you want

the screenplay, if there was one? For the others, try City Lights in San

Fran, Spring Street Bookstore in New York or St. Mark's Bookstore in the

East Village, NYC.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:51:39 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: More OTR Ravings

Hi Perry,

I first want to say that these comments I am making are not meant tobe

flames or knocks. I just disagree with what you're saying. That's the fun

part for all of us. i appreciate your effort to present new stuff for

discussion.

>Nor do a think that Jack Kerouac ever sat down and said: "The

>major conclusion of OTR is that God is an interesting con man."

>What he did do is become very interested in Buddhism. He

>finished OTR in April 1951 and became interested in Buddhism in

>early 1954. If you ask a Christian whether Christ was the son of

>God or an interesting con man he or she will most definitely

>answer -- well I don't need to say, but if you ask a Buddhist

>whether the Buddha was a manifestation of God or an interesting

>con man he or she is more than likely to say "YES." Which is to

>say these are not mutually exclusive categories. We must learn

>to live with our ambivalences -- and with the postmodern

>condition (is JK more PoMo than we thought?).

Here I don't agree at all. I don't think Buddhists would say Buddha is an

intersting con man. They take Buddhism very seriously.

I find many aspects of Buddhism and many aspects of catholicism to be very

similar. The iconography and ritual are very similar. A couple weeks ago

we went to our friends wedding. They are a Vietnamese couple who are

Catholic, not Buddhist. After the wedding at lunch at the mother of the

groom's house they did something that is almost exactly the same as my

fundamentalist Buddhist in-laws might do. There was a big shrine there

with the Virgin Mary stature as the cetnerpiece. They had food and stuff

on it the same way that my in-laws leave sugar, rice etc...on there shrine.

My in-laws shrine is topped by a picture of their sect's (True Buddha--it

has a web page or two if you are interested in looking) living master

Buddha dude. The couple, after the ceremony at the others house lit

incense and held the burning sticks and bowed a few times before the

shrine. This is virtually exactly what I've seen my father in law do to

his shrine. It struck me how similar the rituals and iconography are with

the relevant substitutions for Buddhism vs. Catholicism. I am not saying

this form of Buddhism and this form of Catholicism are idential or equal,

but the outward manifestations are extremely alike. Analogously in many

ways Zen Buddhism strikes me very much like certain aspects of

Protestantism. I read D.T. Suzuki before I read imitation of Christ by

Thomas a kempis and the similarities in the aphorisms was very apparent to

me.(Once again I am not saying Zen and certain aspects of protestantism are

identical, just that there are similarities).

This is why Kerouac's Catholicism and Buddhism have never struck me as

being at odds with each other. Read mexico fellaheen from Lonesome

Traveller.

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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 01:01:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: The Guelph Peak <peak@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject: Re: GINSBERG AND MEDITATION

In-Reply-To: <960129132543.3155@louisville.lib.ky.us>

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone was aware if Allen Ginsberg studied meditation with

> Swami Muktananda before studying with Chogyam Trungpa. If so, was the

> association short-lived or what?

> Thanks!

> Paul McDonald

> Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

Here is a quote from _Dharma Lion_, a massive Ginsberg bio by Michael

Schumacher:

"Such cynicism, expressed by other Ginsberg detractors,

symbolized a significant misunderstanding of Allen's long-held interest in

Eastern religion, philosophy, and art. If anything, he was moving closer

to establishing the meditation practice that he would undertake for the

rest of his lifre. That autumn, after making a brief reading trip to

Puerto Rico, Bermuda, and the Virgin Islands, he returned to New York

City, where he met Swami Muktananda, who helped him begin a daily

hour-long meditation practice. A short time before that, he had met

Tibetan Buddhist guru Chogyam Trungpa in a chance encounter on the

street in Manhattan. Trungpa's assistant recognized Allen, and the poet

and Buddhist teacher exchanged addresses, beginning a very important

friendship."

This is the only mention of the Swami Muktananda in the entire near-700

page text of this book. It seems very safe to assume that their

association was quite short-lived, though it's hard to tell just how short.

This is a great bio, if only for the sheer volume of detail it includes.

There's good stuff on the relationship between Ginsberg & Timothy Leary,

especially when the latter was carrying out his LSD & psilocybin mushroom

experiments, as well as on the details of the developments of

relationships between Ginsberg, Kerouac, Cassady, and the West Coast

kids, & later with Bob Dylan & others, as well as just about everyone

else he ever came into contact with, even just seeing them at a distance

on a crowded street (well, it *is* massive). It was put out by St.

Martin's Press, in New York, in 1992.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:45:22 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: sjcahn <c659663@SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: More OTR Ravings

In-Reply-To: <960203164219_135030750@emout10.mail.aol.com>

On Sat, 3 Feb 1996, Perry Lindstrom wrote:

> A note on Liz, Howard and others' comments about random thoughts.

> I don't think it is possible for people to have random thoughts -

> - in the statistical sense of the word. All our thoughts are

> biased (statistically speaking) by our genetic makeup, our

> upbringing, and prior random events -- but they are our thoughts.

> What Burroughs tried to do with cut-ups (and others like John

> Cage) was to introduce more randomness into the process. But

> Burroughs came to believe that even these were not random at all

> but "were prophetic subliminal announcements." Literary Outlaw,

> p322 - Morgan's words not WSB's. I would contend that automatic

> writing is not random thinking but is the result of the artist's

> prior experiences, investigations, discipline, talent etc. -- but

> perhaps I am beating up on a straw man here since the prior use

> of the word may have had a different connotation for Liz and Howard.

If you want to dive into the most interesting... I'd say... product of

"automatic writing," and how it's used, refined, let go-- all impossibly

poor explanantion-- grab a copy of Yeats' "A Vision." A prepare for a ride.

sjc

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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:38:09 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: Hesse and Beat

>>On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Dan Barth wrote:

>>> I'm thinking that it was in *Big Sur* that Kerouac mentioned

>>>*Steppenwolf*. At

>>> the Bixby Creek cabin didn't he read *Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde* and then say

>>> something about it or some other book being much more interesting than

>>> *Steppenwolf*? I'll check my bookshelf later.

>> right....which once again shows the direct impact of 50's beats on

>>60's hippies in the usa (and maybe w. europe)? "steppenwolf" suddenly

>>became "all the rage" among univ. students in the late 60's,

><snip>

>> fws, taipei

>Nice observation,

>don't forget to duck and cover in March. (just kidding--I hope)

>Tim

coming in on this a bit late - due to bad dose of flu - but lying in my bed

sneezing and snuffling I was checking through Big Sur looking for a

reference to something else and chanced upon the following passage:

'Long nights simply thinking about the usefulness of that little wire

scourer, those little yellow copper things you buy in supermarkets for 10 cents

all to me infinitely more interesting than the stupid and senseless

"Steppenwolf" novel in the shack which I read with a shrug, this old fart

reflecting the "conformity" of today and all the while he thought he was a

big Nietzsche, old imitator of Dostoevsky fifty years too late...'

'Big Sur:' p. 31.

- harsh, but true, I think?

rod w.

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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:04:44 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk@UKACRL.BITNET

Subject: Re: mexico city blues

sunday, 4th Feb.

Does anyone have any information about the 1st chorus of Mexico City Blues,

especially the last section: The same voice on the same ship/The Supreme

Vehicle/S.S. Excalibur/Maynard etc.? I get the buddhist reference - Supreme

Vehicle - but what relevance did S.S. Excalibur have for kerouac? In Book

of Dreams there is a mention of this ship sailing of to Cuba or Panama (I

forget - haven't the book to hand) but was this some boat operating out of

Mexico or Kerouac transposing in his dream a ship he'd sailed on, either in

the Merchant Marine or elsewhere? Also: is Maynard a place? I checked the

atlas for this, and there is a Maynard in Washington State, but i don't see

the immediate relevance. One final thing: is the quoted voice Bill Garver?

And 'stock and joint' a reference to his drug stash? Any help gratefully

received - I've got most of the poem down, but this first bit I find

puzzling with regard to the exact references - my nit-picking brain,

probably - or the fact that I'm a Brit, writing about the poem at a distance

from the U.S.

Rod Warner University of Aberystwyth, UK.

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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:00:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Frank Delancy <joehler@REDROSE.NET>

Subject: John Fante

Hey,

I just joined the list, so please excuse this posting if it's not

appropriate, since i'm not sure if you all consider John Fante a beat

generation writer. Anyways, I've read practically all of his books, and

wanted to see his films, but have looked to no avail! Well, i looked in

Blockbuster, the only major video store around here, and they didn't have

one Fanter film. Wait Until Spring, Bandini, has Faye Dunaway in it, so i'd

imagine it was distributed pretty much, but they didn't have it. So, what i

was wondering is, has anyone ever seen his films? Or know of a place that

sells his videos? Thank you much in advance!

joehler@redrose.net

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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 19:18:27 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: mexico city blues

On Feb 04, 1996 22:04:44,

'raw3%aberystwyth.ac.uk%UKACRL.bitnet@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU' wrote:

>And 'stock and joint' a reference to his drug stash? Any help

Can't help you with Excalibur or Maynard, but stock and joint used to refer

to a hobo's possessions, as it were, or his "set-up" or situation. I would

lean toward this rather than the drug reference.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 20:24:15 +0300

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Subscribe to Beat-L mailing list

Can you please add me to the Beat-L mailing list.

peent@servtech.com

This is a change of address.If possible, can you remove my previous address

peent@aol.com