beat list 1996

I have seen for sale an audio version of Naked Lunch 2XCD. Now can anyone

tell me more about this, I understand it's a new release. Is it read by

Bill, is it a recent recording, does anyone have this yet? Also, I

Believe, Call Me Burroughs is now available on CD, does anyone have a

track listing of this recording, I know that it was recorded in the

sixities, possibly in Paris by Sommerville?

All replies most appreciated.

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:42:17 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject: WSB Roswell Opera

Anyone heard more details about the project Bill was involved with

concerning the Roswell 47 UFO crash? Apparently, according to Miles biog

it was to be an opera. I know that Bill was involved with the Black Rider

project with, I think, the same people who were working on this Roswell

opera......There is mentioned in Miles a lot of stuff that Bill was

working on around 91/92 what ever became of this?

Does anyone know if WSB Communications has an email address?

Daniel (again!)

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:37:44 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: junkie priest

yes he was.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:53:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Jack'sfootballcareer

In-Reply-To: <960214220501_422961252@emout10.mail.aol.com> from "Ted Pelton"

at Feb 14, 96 10:05:04 pm

> Jack himself talks it in Visions of Dulouz a not great book

> on the whole but with some great moments. Sorry--this isn't intended as

> artistry, there's something wrong with my keyboard.

> But then incorporating accident is thematic to the list, no?

> TedPelton

*smile*

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:39:23 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: jk recordings

I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

(well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

/jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:44:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <01I18USEMOLUDVFREF@dit.ie> from "col. it's steve" at Feb 15,

96 02:39:23 pm

> I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

> (well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

> they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

> /jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

there's box set....called "the beat generation"

check out a good music store....i've seen it everywhere.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:47:54 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: wsb and black rider

the black rider is an album by tom waits and burroughs appears on a couple of

tracks, they're very good.If waits is doing the roswell opera it should prove

interesting.Waits' earlier work is influenced by the beats and well worth

checking out esp. closing time, the heart of saturday night and blue valentine.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:55:56 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <01I18USEMOLUDVFREF@dit.ie>

Odd, more than 50% of the messages I see here refer to CDs, television

shows, poetry readings or movies. Much of the discussion revolves around

trivia such as Kerouac's football credentials. But the Beats were highly

literate and intellectual, weren't they?

Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

Louis Proyect

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, col. it's steve wrote:

> I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

> (well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

> they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

> /jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:32:25 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: can you remember your birth on earth?

>Salinger's decision to exclude himself as a personal figure, Jack wanted

>to be a writer remembered for his work, not his lifestyle.

>What do you think?

>Peter

well.

his life was as an observer (reader?) *and* writer, his friends were mostly

writer's, & the majority (& best) of his work a narration of his life as he saw

it.

in understanding his writing you must understand his lifestyle - both were

catalysts. would he have written like he did, had he stayed in lowell? would

he have lived as he did, had he not known he were a writer?

i think he must be remembered for both, good & bad aspects, everything & all.

if jack *really* wanted to be remembered purely for his writing then he

shouldn't

have written so much about his own personal life. there are many writers who

will be remembered for their literary aspirations that didn't write about their

own personal lives or lifestyles.

yes? no? maybe?

>Saying that Kerouac was only human in defense of his less than model

>behaviour makes me think of an interesting point. Maybe his being just

>slightly "more human" than most of us in his faults allowed him to

>capture humanity more brilliantly in his work.

>Noah Bergman

exactly.

q.1. neal cassady was born in salt lake city, utah. i'm going there early

march. are there any places worth visiting in respect to neal?

q.2. has anyone got the poem, or know the book that holds the poem titled

'the man and the piano' by charles bukowski.

joe

ps. wsb spoke only one language. burroughs!

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:21:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960215095040.23531D-100000@ciao.cc.columbia.edu>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Louis N Proyect wrote:

> Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

> together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

> ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

> philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

> Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

> Louis Proyect

I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:27:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960215095040.23531D-100000@ciao.cc.columbia.edu>

from "Louis N Proyect" at Feb 15, 96 09:55:56 am

i have to say that listening to kerouac recite "a scene from san

francisco" gave me an entirely new perspective on the man.....

i disagree with a comment made by someone not too long

ago...forgive my poor memory...about kerouac becoming a bitter in his

later works.......he is painfully...if not brutally honest with himself

about his life and his drinking......i see no bitterness in "big

sur".....granted, i have yet to finish....and it is pure coincedence that

i picked up this book the after reading

carolyn cassady's "off the road" but for a man consumed with

alcohol...his recollections are vivid and detailed...energetic and

profound....

> Odd, more than 50% of the messages I see here refer to CDs, television

> shows, poetry readings or movies. Much of the discussion revolves around

> trivia such as Kerouac's football credentials. But the Beats were highly

> literate and intellectual, weren't they?

the life force that was kerouac and cassady and ginsberg was reflected in

all that they did....every moment of awareness.....every action and

sensation.....every movement and non-movement.....they LIVED....they did

not sit in institutions discussing intellectual theories ad-nauseum..

> Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

> together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

> ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

> philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

getting fucked up is entirely your perception.....

they discussed how the books and ideas were relevant to LIFE......

how they could perceive LIFE in another way using this knowledge as a

catalyst.....

> Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

can't answer for all "young folks"

but've met many a'folk in general who would rather be anesthetized

than revolutionized.........

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:27:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: movers and shakers

I might be playing the devil's advocate here, but I just wanted to

propose a though that entered my head recently. Please don't just send

back nasty attacks without thinking about its content please.

Now, I don't know if I even agree with this, but... was Kerouac really a

very interesting person? His writing skills were amazing and his depth

of thought on a lot of subject was very deep, but just think about

something. Most of his books were about past adventures with a main

character other than himself. It seems that when he was by himself

without a Neal Cassidy or Gary Snyder to push him along he resorted to

drinking to pass the time. Don't take this as an attack on Kerouac, he's

one of my heroes. I just think that you have to at least take a glance

at both sides of your heroes too.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:55:54 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.91.960215111746.106533A-100000@juliet.stfx.ca>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Noah Bergman wrote:

> I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

> this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

> chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

> discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

> with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

> some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

> can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

Don't be so thin-skinned, Noah. I am just trying to understand your

g-g-g-generation, as the Who song puts it. I rather like being in touch

with the MTV generation.

I'm 51 myself and hung out with some of the original beats when I was a

16 year old freshman at Bard College in 1961. People like Robert Kelly,

for example.

I work at Columbia University literally a block away from Kerouac's old

apartment. I see hundreds of undergrads all about me each day making a

million "style" statements to underline their bohemianism: nose-rings, green

hair, tattoos, etc.

I don't understand this. Back in the 1950s, rebellion was measured more

in terms of what was inside people's minds. Burroughs himself was a very

conservative dresser. Kerouac simply emulated the style of blue-collar

workers, since that was mainly what he did.

What is the fascination with style? What is the fascination with

rock-and-roll, MTV, poetry readings that seem to be set up for a Gap

commercial? I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

So, sorry to appear rude, censorious or insensitive. I am simply putting

questions forward in my own blunt style.

Louis Proyect

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:43:46 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: gabby <raindog@IQUEST.NET>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net>

Louis wrote:

>I work at Columbia University literally a block away from Kerouac's old

>apartment. I see hundreds of undergrads all about me each day making a

>million "style" statements to underline their bohemianism: nose-rings, green

>hair, tattoos, etc.

>I don't understand this. Back in the 1950s, rebellion was measured more

>in terms of what was inside people's minds. Burroughs himself was a very

>conservative dresser. Kerouac simply emulated the style of blue-collar

>workers, since that was mainly what he did.

>What is the fascination with style? What is the fascination with

>rock-and-roll, MTV, poetry readings that seem to be set up for a Gap

>commercial? I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

>seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

>doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

Louis,

I wish there was an easy way to answer your question -

because you make really good points (style over substance as a statment) -

but I worry that what I *think* I understand as a member of the Mtv

generation (I'm 23) won't be translatable to other gens. There is a lot of

strength to the idea that "you had to be there", in order to get certain

things - obviously, I'll never have but an inkling of the true nature of

Beat, as I've gotten it 2nd hand (except for attending a wonderful Allen

Ginsberg reading at my college).

as someone who spent adolescence draping herself in

'alternative' clothing so that people could tell what 'tribe' i belonged to,

i can honestly say that style & appearance are the modes of communication

that I (and, I believe, my generation) were brought up on - to express

ourselves in non-verbal and non-written ways - it was the fastest and

easiest way to assess the character and interests of the people we find

ourselves surrounded by. I also think that appearance seems more immediate

- if you see a person with magenta hair, a celtic knot tatoo and a couple of

interesting piercings - you can assume much about that person - all of which

are totally shallow, of course.

The beats were more on the money in that they talked and

talked and listened and read in order to express themselves and find

allegiances. I think the culture and time in which they found themselves -

repressive, conformist '50's - valued substance - so the beats were smart

enough to seize that knowledge and use it as a weapon against the society

they felt stifled them. Today, we are an image literate society - ('words

are meaningless and forgetable' - if I may quote Depeche Mode) - hell bent

on NOW NOW NOW - you've got pitch your product in under a minute - you've

got to capture the hearts and minds of your audience before they change the

channel - you've got to be flashy.

so - yes, Louis, I agree with you - but I would say that

just because the surface is glittery and flashy doesn't mean that there

isn't some depth. Means of expression have mutated - we need new ways of

reading one another.

my $1.32 for the day.

gabby

============================================================================

"We now have a new rule on the bus: passengers will refrain from KILLING MY

SOUL!

Thank you."

-Bus Driver Stu Benedict

The Adventures of Pete and Pete

============================================================================

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:43:52 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: roswell opera

bill appears on the Black Rider album with Tom Waits.I don't know about the

roswell thing though. Its worth checking out other Tom Waits material though

as he took alot of inspiration from the beats, especially on his earlier albums

like closing Time,Heart of Saturday Night,Blue Valentine.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:38:17 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg---post beatific

In-Reply-To: <199602131544.KAA30784@lynx.dac.neu.edu>

On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Tony Trigilio wrote:

> *Journals, Mid-Fifties: 1954-1958*. I saw him read from the book here

> in Boston, and by my observation he was gracious and energetic. Hope

wow, can you expand any on the reading? Journals, mid-fifties... is what

first got me into the beat culture

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "Come back, come back, come back |-|

|-| today. Come back, come back, |-|

|-| come back to stay..." |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:41:16 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Books

How many people out there have read any books by the Beats besides On the

Road or Naked Lunch?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:42:03 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter McGahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: can you remember your birth on earth? (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: can you remember your birth on earth?

if jack *really* wanted to be remembered purely for his writing then he

shouldn't

have written so much about his own personal life. there are many writers who

will be remembered for their literary aspirations that didn't write about their

own personal lifestyles

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The literature teacher in me requires me to point out the fallacy of

being to quick to associate the author and the speaker of the text.

Although Jack and say Sal Paradise had much in common, they had much in

difference as well. Many writers in the Post Modern era choose to

utilize their life experience, but that does not mean that the works

are intended to be nor should they be read as autobiography.

I think you hit the nail on the head by differentiating between lifestyle

and life. Jack was at times after the style, not his biography.

Too many people still look at the Beats as people who lived "cool"

lifestyles and ignore their writing. They were writers and wanted to

be writers before all else. Maybe my phobia of their lack of acceptance

in academia leads to conclusions, but I am at UConn studing with Ann

Chaters, and even here I cannot do serious research on the Beats.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:02:23 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

>I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

>(well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

>they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

>/jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

Yes. Three recrdings of Kerouac were released in the fifties/early

sixties. These have been re-released by Rhino Records as a box set. They

also have included some outtakes.

I have some of these sounds at

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html

My site also has a link to another site that has some longer audio files

(all these are .au files) from SF Blues and MC blues.

Tell us more about the hip-hop/jazzed backed kerouac you mention above. Is

iyt new? If it is old I would suggest it may be Blues and Haikus (which is

part of the Rhino set).

And concerning what kerouac and the others talked about--read kerouac's

books, especially Visions of Cody's third section: Frisco: The Tape.

Keouac bought a tape recorder (not common in 1951/2) specifically to tape

their "great" converstions. This portion of Visions of Cody is ostensibly

a direct transcript of various tape recording sessions at the Cassady's

house.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:51:15 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Peter Mcgahey <PRM95003@UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings (fwd)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

I work at Columbia University literally a block away from Kerouac's old

apartment. I see hundreds of undergrads all about me each day making a

million "style" statements to underline their bohemianism: nose-rings, green

hair, tattoos, etc.

I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simply living in the East Village does not make you a bohemian. What

many folks look at as bohemian (nose rings, tattoos etc) is not. Hint:

if a frat boy does it, it ain't hip.

Anyway, my response to this is that these kids are no more true bohemians

than the Beatniks that posed for Life magazine spreads thirty-five years

were Beats.

Find yourself some real bohemians and they are just as intellectual as the

best of the 50's and 60's. I'd wager to say that the intellectuals of

today are much more aware than their predecessors, they have to be.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:06:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Christopher Teggatz <Teggatz@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: beat writers, current status (fwd)

Two years ago I was in Tangier, staying at the Tanger Inn room 9 (where NAKED

LUNCH was written). I asked the hotel owner, an old Englishman named John

Sutcliffe, if he heard from any of the Beats any more.

"Yes, he said, Burroughs stayed here two weeks ago. "

I could have cried, I was so close. Of course, Sutcliffe claimed it was no

loss--"All those writers were terribly dull," he said. I don't believe it.

Christopher Miezio-Teggatz

Marquette University

Teggatz@AOL.COM

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:10:00 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: jk recordings

the hiphop/jazz track i have is new (its about ayear or two old) unfortunately

i haven't aclue who its by or where its from.i got it form a friend who got it

from the radio. I've nearly finished Visions of Cody and find its structue

reallyinteresting but a bit disjointed.The tape section is great + shud be

released.v

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:11:11 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

Subject: Re: Books

In-Reply-To: <960215.124142.EST.PRM95003@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>

I just wanted to ask if anybody else feels Dharma Bums rivals On the Road

for quality. It may have just been the state of mind I was in when I

read it, but I found Dharma Bums to be much more clearly written. I

think in On the Road Kerouac was still rough in his transitions from

traditional to spontaneous prose. Dharma Bums is much more smooth in

terms of how it is more difficult to diffuse the spontaneous from the

pre-thought.

Also, I'd like to start a discussion on Gary Snyder. What would people

in the know recommend of his. I've read some of his work and find it

exquisite (something in "Civilization" speaks to me).

-------------------------------------------------------------

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness...

-------------------------------------------------------------

Noah Bergman

x95vyk@juliet.stfx.ca

Box 730 St. FXU

Antigonish, Nova Scotia

B2G 2X1

(902) 867-2517

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:12:39 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: reading

yes i have read more than otr and naked lunch,quite alot more in fact.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:23:22 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: the list

i thought this was a forum for discusion on any aspects of the beats.Just

because people are interested in tapes and movies doesn't mean they haven't

read the books in fact it means they probably have read them and want MORE.

ok we're a younger generation but we're also hungry for stuff we love on any

format available.new technology can make obscure material more accessable and

thats a good thing in my eyes. i think hunger for more is a sign of love ..v.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:30:04 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

Subject: fucked up on rugs

i don't think the beats got fucked up (ok there's always casualties) on drugs

they used them to get high, to change perception to just go,go,go.i'm a college

student and i do it and still get good grades. drugs are a social thing, a

leisure thing and sometimes a spiritual thing. its when they become a lifestyle

that they become a problem -"fucked up"- thing. The beat lifestyle wasn't

centred on drugs they were just a part of how they had a good time. I don't

think its fair to say they got fucked up (not all of them anyway)....v.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:34:47 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Colleen Krawczyk <colleen@EXECPC.COM>

Subject: books...

I've read other beat lit. besides OTR and Naked Lunch...

Ginsberg's Howl sparked my interest in beat lit., along with a few other

poems by him...then, of course, I read OTR and enjoyed it so I also read

The Subterraneans and started Visions of Cody...I can't wait to spend more

time reading this summer (I'm just finishing my bachelor's this May, so

I spend most of my time now reading text books).

Colleen

Marquette University

colleen@execpc.com

krawczyk@mscs.mu.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:08:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jim Stedman <jstedman@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

I found "Desolation Angels" to be the perfect companion to both On The Road

and the Dharma Bums. Actually, DA and "Visions Of Cody" almost serve as a

concordance to the rest of Jack's non-Lowell books. I think that John

Clellon Holmes at one point mentioned that he thought some of the original

manuscript of "On The Road" eventually found its way into both Desolation

Angels and Visions Of Cody... which isn't too hard to imagine, as the

writing in the both of the subsequent works is much more alive and

energetic... the style much more inventive than can be found in his

potboilers.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:06:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Louis N Proyect <lnp3@COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: the list

Comments: To: "col. it's steve" <VOSHEA@DIT.IE>

In-Reply-To: <01I192KBLBO2DVFT91@dit.ie>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, col. it's steve wrote:

> i thought this was a forum for discusion on any aspects of the beats.Just

> because people are interested in tapes and movies doesn't mean they haven't

> read the books in fact it means they probably have read them and want MORE.

> ok we're a younger generation but we're also hungry for stuff we love on any

> format available.new technology can make obscure material more accessable and

> thats a good thing in my eyes. i think hunger for more is a sign of love ..v.

Will all of you stop being so fucking sensitive. No, don't go away just

because an old buzzard like myself badmouths Gap commercials. What would

you make of Kerouac himself? He was as rude and obnoxious to his "fans"

as can be imagined. This is a forum for everybody interested in the

beats. I'm just throwin' my two cents in...

Louis Proyect

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:41:39 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Books, poems, etc...

I've found it interesting to read Kerouac, particularly "Dharma Bums" and "On

The Road" out loud. The prose has a definite jazz quality, sort of like the

heart doing a saxophone cadenza. I've had the impression that the period of

"Dharma Bums" could very well have been the happiest time for Kerouac. He and

Snyder lived in the mountains with no communication with the outside world,

(and no booze for that matter) both of them alone with pen and paper, totally

in their element.

I have read and re-read Ginsberg's "Plutonian Ode" and, again, reading it out

loud, and maybe playing Peter Gabriel's "Passion" in the background, brings it

to life. It's a poem that transcends nuclear protest to a work of

epic/mythological proportions.

One of my favorite Beat poems has got to be Gregory Corso's "Marriage." He

was here in Louisville, KY in '93 and he read that one. I think a

friend of mine recorded it on video.

I saw Jim Carroll recently in Lexington and, even though he is not classed with

the original Beats, his books, particularly "Basketball Diaries" and "Forced

Entries" have that same immediancy of the moment.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:57:47 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Gary M. Gillman" <garyg@INFORAMP.NET>

Subject: Re: Books

At 02:08 PM 2/15/96 -0500, you wrote:

>I found "Desolation Angels" to be the perfect companion to both On The Road

>and the Dharma Bums. Actually, DA and "Visions Of Cody" almost serve as a

>concordance to the rest of Jack's non-Lowell books. I think that John

>Clellon Holmes at one point mentioned that he thought some of the original

>manuscript of "On The Road" eventually found its way into both Desolation

>Angels and Visions Of Cody... which isn't too hard to imagine, as the

>writing in the both of the subsequent works is much more alive and

>energetic... the style much more inventive than can be found in his

>potboilers.

>Jim

Not to take away from DA and VOC, but OTR ain`t no potboiler. It`s got long

stretches of achingly beautiful, lyrical writing, and is a complex novel to

boot, operating as it does on 6 levels or so, being: a comprehensive

critique (but almost unconsciously so) of 50`s conformist culture; an

investigation of interesting subcultures (eg., the Terry scenes, or "Denver

colored section" reveries); an acute study of family dysfunction (i.e., the

early life of Dean); a depiction of irrepressible American manhood and

optimism (i.e., the adult Dean`s adventures); a high-grade travelogue( eg.,

the Mexico scenes); and, not least, a spiritual quest (" I even thought of

old Dean Moriarty, the father we never found..."). OTR is a potboiler only

in the sense that some of its less lyrical prose recalls the telling of a

laconic detective tale - Jack later wrote that these parts sought to emulate

the style of Dashiell Hammett. OTR is, IMHO, the greatest novel to appear

in America since 1945. This is true, and will remain true, whether or not

Harold Bloom puts Kerouac in his Western Canon.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:27:18 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960215104734.16052B-100000@merhaba.cc.columbia.edu>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Louis N Proyect wrote:

> commercial? I simply don't understand the bohemian culture of today. It

> seems to owe a superficial allegiance to beat culture of the 1950s, but

> doesn't seem to be anywhere as intellectual or literary.

> So, sorry to appear rude, censorious or insensitive. I am simply putting

> questions forward in my own blunt style.

And in a widely generalizng style! As a youth of 20, I dress quite

"normally." I love to immulate the beats, and thrive in discussing

literature with my friends. I also write poetry and fiction, and love to

share it with others, and in turn, read others' works. I discuss

philosophy,politics, and music with my circle of friends. I think there

is a large group of "youngsters" out here who love to be "intellectual

and literary"

I think each generation has their "literates" then those who only care

for the trends of the time.

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "Come back, come back, come back |-|

|-| today. Come back, come back, |-|

|-| come back to stay..." |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:27:43 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: "Potboiler"

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@INTERBIT.CREN.NET

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:57:47 EST

Jack was the one who referred to his "hit" books as potboilers... in

conversation with John Montgomery. I know that he was somewhat

dissatisfied with the editorial work that altered his manuscript of "On

The Road", and maybe that was the basis for his attitude regarding the

book.

Jim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:35:45 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CLAY VAUGHAN <CLV100U@MOZART.FPA.ODU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

Comments: To: Noah Bergman <x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>,

"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@oduvm.cc.odu.edu>

Kerouac considered Dharma Bums a "potboiler", written to capitalize

on the success of OTR. I don't think he meant to dismiss the book by

saying this, but it's put in a place outside of books written for

love like VISIONS (all of them) or SUBTERRANEANS.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:36:43 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andra <asg5@ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books, poems, etc...

Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US> wrote:

>One of my favorite Beat poems has got to be Gregory Corso's "Marriage." He

>was here in Louisville, KY in '93 and he read that one. I think a

>friend of mine recorded it on video.

"Marriage" is definately one of my favorites, too. I also loved Ginsberg's

"America" and his rather compact "On Burroughs' Work."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

An it's yer life

Do it - don talk it - Andra Greenberg

Forget about the talkers - Duke University

They'll always be around asg5@acpub.duke.edu

You won't ......

--Bob Dylan--

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:16:32 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: "Potboiler"

>Jack was the one who referred to his "hit" books as potboilers... in

>conversation with John Montgomery. I know that he was somewhat

>dissatisfied with the editorial work that altered his manuscript of "On

>The Road", and maybe that was the basis for his attitude regarding the

>book.

>Jim

Actually he referred to Dharma Bums as a potboiler. Visions of Cody he

thought of as his masterpiece. He wrote Dharma Bums at the instigation of

his publishers after the success of On The Road. The publishers wanted

another book of similar meddle. Dr. Sax was a little too trippy for them

and it was about a little kid and his inner life fantasies not "wild

orgies" or whatever. This is not to imply that Dharma Bums is a bad book

in any way. It is not the artistic statement of VoC, Dr. Sax or On the

Road though.

In terms of his Buddhist studies I think Visions of Gerard is more a

complete statement of his learning as applied to his philosophy and

artistic endeavors. This book mixes buddhism and catholicism throughout.

In Tom Clark's biography of kerouac it is written that the catholic parts

of Dharma Bums were edited out. That's all the info it provides there

though. It would be nice to know more about the lost passages of the

Dharma Bums. Of course one "catholic" part that was left in is the very

first part of the book where he meets his first dharma bum--the tramp on

the train with a catholic saint icon. (Which saint was it?) Catholicism

wasn't hip and far out enough for the target audience I guess. Tristessa

also is a good unexpurgated reflection of his buddhism and catholicism as

is Mexico City Blues. Dharma Bums, though ostensibly about buddhist

americans and buddhism may be the least full document of kerouac concerning

his buddhist studies.

Dharma Bums and On the Road were subject to a fair amount of editing by the

major label publisher. His later published books, Dr. Sax, Tristessa,

Subterraneans, Mexico City Blues et al were published as is. He was able

to recieve that amount of artistic control. To do this though he was

published by smaller presses, eg Grove Press and a paperback "exploitation"

press for Tristessa.

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:21:39 -0800

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Books

>Kerouac considered Dharma Bums a "potboiler", written to capitalize

>on the success of OTR. I don't think he meant to dismiss the book by

>saying this, but it's put in a place outside of books written for

>love like VISIONS (all of them) or SUBTERRANEANS.

Yes. That is one of the reasons I think kerouac's books are lasting as

great literature. He truely wrote them for love. He was a published

writer who garnered good reviews for his first book (though it didn't sell

well). he presented his second book and it was turned down. He wrote more

books and they were turned down. He could have changed his style or gone

along with publisher's requests (eg they would have published Dr. Sax as a

childhood memoir if he took out the fantasy parts). But he didn't.

Eventually he got to the point where he didn't even know if his books would

be published but he wrote them anyhow. That's literature as opposed to

fiction.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:20:52 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:21:50 -0500 from

<x95vyk@JULIET.STFX.CA>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:21:50 -0500 Noah Bergman said:

>On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Louis N Proyect wrote:

>> Most of what Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs were doing when they got

>> together, besides getting fucked up on drugs, was discussing books and

>> ideas. Kerouac had a really deep knowledge of literature, religion and

>> philosophy. Basically, he was a book-worm.

>> Are you young folks averse to books? Are they considered un-hip? What gives?

>> Louis Proyect

>I just wanted to clarify something. What are the limits to discussion on

>this list? I made an offhand comment about my own generation and was

>chastised for it. It seems to me that in keeping with the beat spirit,

>discussions on just about anything should go. I agree that in keeping

>with the nature of the list they should pertain to the beat generation in

>some way, but c'mon now. If there are further limits to what can and

>can't be discussed on this list I would appreciate someone telling me.

Beat-l is a forum devoted to the study of the lives and works of the writers of

the Beat Generation, especially Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, & William Burrou

ghs. It is also intended to facilitate scholarly communication and to serve a

s a bulletin board for new publications, upcoming conferences, and related Beat

events.

Bill Gargan, listowner.

If I might add a personal note: A while back, a discussion on Generation X see

med to take over the list. Some our of colleagues may be reacting to that even

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:34:11 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Matthew S Sackmann <msackma@MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU>

Subject: Re: jk recordings

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.EDU>

In-Reply-To: <01I18USEMOLUDVFREF@dit.ie>

On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, col. it's steve wrote:

> I've heard that Kerouac made recordings of himself reading prose and poetry

> (well i know he did from Visions of Cody). Is it possible to buy these or are

> they available. I have a recent song where Jk's reading is backed by hip-hop

> /jazz music dunno who dunnit though. Anybody with info on these?....v.

Yeah, i know there's a box set called the jack kerouac Collection (or

something like that) It contains three CDs. In the first one Jack reads

his prose and poems. In the 2nd he reads haikus with jazz playin in the

background, and the 3rd is kind of a duet between jack readin his stuff,

and saxophones.

-Matt Sackmann

"Ah yes, maybe I'm wrong and all the Christian, Islamic, Neo Platonist,

Buddhist, Hindu, and Zen Mystics of the world were wrong about the

transcendental mystery of existence but I don't think so- Like the thirty

birds who reached God and saw themselves reflected in His Mirror. the

thirty Dirty Birds, those 970 of us birds who never made it across the

Valley of Divine Illumination did really make it anyway in Perfection- So

now let me explain about poor Cody, even though I've already told most of

his story. he is a BELIEVER in life and he WANTS to go to Heaven but

because he loves life so he embraces it so much he thinks he sins and

will never seeHeaven- He was a Catholic altar boy as I say even when he

was bumming dimes for his hopeless father hiding in alleys. You could

have ten thousand cold eyed Materialistic officials claim they love life

too but can never embrace it so near sin and also never see Heaven- They