beat list 1996

point of view but where does that leave us leave you? What is truth? Do you

know? We move forward by the aid of symbols & we change those symbols as we

move forward. Of what real profit is it to us, to deprive life of all its

dreams, of all its beautiful mysticism and of all its lies (thank you K.H.)?

What do you mean What Kerouac did in his life didn't work for him. With

suffering comes humility, and with it, in the end wisdom (thank you J.S.).

Kerouac suffered much. He caused suffering (i.e. his daughter Jan). But what

he did in his life worked for him in as many ways as it didn't. His creative

work is some of the best in the history of world literature (despite highbrow

academic criticism). Pain and joy, failure and succes are different sides of

same coin called human nature human being. To say this is good that is bad

you succeeded because of this you failed because of that is reductive & does

not allow full emotional mental physical spiritual depth of being human. We

learn to walk but fall time & time again. We don't give up but keep getting

up until we walk. As adults for some reason we allow society to convince us

that if we fall we fail. That's a lie I refuse to believe. Beckett said To be

an artist is to fail as no other dare fail.

To fail is to live to be human. Breathe deep of failure of success of life.

Yes Kerouac's life was stressful. And through that stress look at the

beautiful gems he created gifts he gave to us which help us endure the pain

the stress the suffering inherent in life.

Judge not that ye be not judged: Even if the end of Jack's life was the

logical (logic?) outcome of the choices he made so what? Does that logical

outcome negate the beautiful gifts, created in the midst of deep pain, he

bestowed granted to us & to those who follow? Yes wouldn't it be great if he

had more self-esteem? Wouldn't it be great if we all did. But if a frog had

wings it wouldn't bump its ass. We make the most of what we have & hopefully,

if we ever learn anything, we do it without condemning others or thinking

feeling that we're better than anyone simply because we live or think a

certain way (prescribed or not). Perhaps carpentry cooking or cab driving

would have benefited his writing. Perhaps not. Who are we to say?

Most of the time Kerouac was not focused? Excuse me but no one, no one could

have written like Kerouac without being focused like few have been focused in

history of human race. To compare to grade Kerouac & Snyder on levels of

focus & ability is mistake. They are different (but connected) writers

different human beings.

no excuse for laziness, passivity, self-destructiveness, nihilism alcoholism

drug abuse.

to sit in judgment over any one other than self is mistake. who can know what

pain, sorrow, joy any other human being experiences. What difference does it

make what good does it do to condemn for what you see or believe is wrong?

Why not either let the other live her or his own life, learning through

experience, and if anything offer a helping hand when you can. Who knows what

lessons a human being learns by being lazy, passive, self-destructive,

nihilist, alcoholic, drug abuser? tolerance may be the greatest love. Allow

each individual to learn to grow on their own terms rather than terms you or

society or tradition prescribes. Always offer to help if the other person

asks or if you think your hand might ease their pain their burden. You, me,

society cannot teach anyone anything. People learn through experience, they

learn when they are ready to learn & learning only takes place deep inside in

the gonads the solar plexus the gut the heart.

I agree that engagement is The Way but what does it mean to be engaged.

Engagement is different for every person.

In Kentucky the heart of poetry (word symbol & definition) is best

represented as real experience, in other words Poetry is Life, Life is Poetry

as in actually holding your naked newborn baby to drink from your breasts as

in planting the first seeds of spring into the freshly ploughed eartas in

kissing your dying mother your just dead father on the forehead and saying

goodbye I Love You. Ron Whitehead 6/16/96 4:07PM

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:40:21 -0400

Reply-To: CMJ <Forza@cris.com>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject: Consoling Myself About Jack

Hi, again:

As you can see, I have absolutely nothing better to do today:) But this

Zen thing is very interesting to me.

I've dabbled a bit in Zen, and do not in the very least, consider myself

qualified at all to speak with any authority, whatsoever. And I would ask

anyone from the group to "enlighten" me on anything I might say.

>From what I think I know, the religion says that man goes through seven

lives before attaining complete enlightenment. An example of this, in

literature would be J.D. Salinger's "Seymour Glass." From what I remember

from my college years, (years ago) - was that the character of Seymour,

was in his "last life," and killed himself because he knew he was. He had

attatined everything he possibly could have on this earth. He was a "holy

man," the buddha of the whole Glass family. Seymour or "See-More," saw

more, knew more, etc.

With George talking about Jack's self-destructive ways, I just had to

agree with him wholeheartedly, but I also would like to say, that I feel

maybe Jack was a lot like "Seymour." I console myself about many great

artists whom I have admired in the way I admire Jack, by simply telling

myself, "well, he was probably in his last life." There was simply no more

for him to say or do. I don't think Jack could have done anything

different than he did, job-wise or otherwise. Highly creative people do

not seem to be happy with anything else, but their great love of what they

do.

I have a real on-going argument with someone about this very thing in

another group I'm in. This person suggests to me that artistic people are

basically "manic-depressive" or "mad genuises" and take to a

self-destructive lifestyle when their creativity is down. My whole point

is, that they wouldn't be so self-destructive if they hadn't experienced

the lives they had, but they also would not be as creative as they are.

Why do they all seem to know so much? Why do they all seem to "see-more"

than others do?

I enjoyed George's telling us he, "went the way of Jack & Co. in the early

70's." Hey, George, so did I, and I'm a woman <g>.(Not many people are

willing to admit it, though, but what the hell?) It was great while it

lasted. But sooner or later, as George so rightly points out; it's time

for marriage, kids, jobs and paying the bills. But I truly believe for

people such as Jack, this is not a viable option, there is much more to be

done. So I do console myself by thinking Jack went the way of Zen.

As I've said, I'm not qualifed on any level to really speak to this

subject at all. I am, in fact, just an ole romantic, ex-English lit major,

who prefers to think about Jack and others we've lost so prematurely, in

this fashion. At least it is a consolation to me:))

Thanks for your time,

Chris

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:27:59 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Dolores Neese <dolores@CRL.COM>

Subject: Re: Consoling Myself About Jack

Comments: To: CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM@listserv.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960616155846.18380A-100000@galileo.cris.com>

Well, I'm very, very grateful for the many other creative people on this

planet who are brilliant, sane, and healthy, who continue to produce

extraordinary writing, art, film, dance. Some may have had humble

beginnings, or had a rough life, but they got through it, and we are all

the better for it. May they live long and prosper!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 18:55:32 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: FBI Files on Kerouac, Ginsberg & Co. ?

In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:31:08 -0600 from

<gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Yes, I know AG has requested his FBI files under the freedom of

Information Act. There was also a book published several years ago

which included transcripts of FBI files on various writers including

Ginsberg and Hemingway. I don't remember the title. Maybe someone can

help me out. I'll look for it. If I find it, I'll post it.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:21:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Women beats

Noticed this post thought anyone who hasn't seen it would find it interesting.

This fall, Conari Press is publishing "Women of the Beat Generation: The

Writers, Artists and Muses at the Heart of a Revolution"

edited by Brenda Knight, foreword by Anne Waldman, afterword by Ann

Charters. Look for it in your local bookstore, or contact Conari for more

info:

800-685-9595

conaripub@aol.com

http://www.readersndex.com/conari/

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 03:58:27 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jun 15, 1996 23:27:02, 'Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>In Kentucky

>I pass fast

>on one lane bridges

>Ron Whitehead

In Amish country--

Long line of fast cars behind

Black horse and buggy.

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:24:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

1 In Kentucky

always

I go too far

3 In Kentucky

my skin turns

blue & I holler

12 In Kentucky

I don't go

to the Derby

I3 In Kentucky

springtime lie down

in orange sagebrush

14 In Kentucky

with old Blue

watch white clouds

16 In Kentucky

my heart

is breaking

17 In Kentucky

moon shines

comets are loud

18 In Kentucky

music

is mountainous

21 In Kentucky

I am

no more

33 In Kentucky say goodbye

to bluegrass highways

raise barns with Amish

Chalk Skin Bending

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:19:14 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zen books

Highly recomended is AMBIVILANT ZEN (excuse my spelling) by Lawrence Shainberg.

A good book on Zen, not so much about the Beats, but good none the less. New in

hardcover.

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:44:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject: Kurt and Zen?

Comments: cc: forza@concentric.net

First, there is a great bio of Kurt Cobain called "Come As You Are". In all

the material I have read on him, I saw nothing to indicate KC had more than a

superficial interest in Zen. It's probable that well meaning persons tried

to get KC into meditation to calm him, I'm sure he tried it, but he never

followed through and made it a part of his hectic life (can you imaging

trying to meditate with Courtney screaming about something?). Kurt's cronic

ulcers did not help either.

KC was a bright fellow. If he had taken the time to pursue outside interests

and found some balance in his life, he might still be with us. His problem

was not unlike Jack Kerouac's - neither was ready for fame. Both ended up

distroying themselves (Kerouac's method was slower, but just as effective).

I saw Nirvana once. I got so depressed I walked out toward the end. I think

KC's music had the effect on me that he desired. I was used to the joy of

Grateful Dead concerts and the Nirvana vibe was too different for me at the

time. Since then I've developed a greater appreciation for KC's music and I

now believe he was THE musical giant of the 1990's. What a great writer he

was too. Great songwriting IS poetry (anyone disagree?) At least some of the

greatness of Nirvana lives on with Dave Grohl and the Foo Fighters. Dave is

a musical genius too but is not the tormented soul that Kurt was. He will

stick around for awhile. RIP Kurt.

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:54:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

I wrote this last January when I hit a plateau in my spiritual paractice and

showed it to various poeple who in turn pointed me to D.T. Suzuki's Book, "Zen

Mind, Beginners Mind." Maybe there is a state called the "Don't Know Mind" as

opposed to, or complimented by, the "No Mind" state.

JE NE SAIS PAS

I dont know who I am

I dont know what I want

I dont know why I'm here

I dont know who got here first

I dont know what it all has to do with me

I dont know why I dont make my bed

I dont know why I keep losing my socks

I dont know why my mom keeps calling me

I dont know why I keep rolling that damn rock up the hill

I dont know if I get enough sleep

I dont know what it means when I fly in my dreams

I dont know the appropriate life skills

I dont know how it all works

I dont know if I have any regrets

I dont know how to not sweat the small shit

I dont know how to hold my own with other guys

I dont know how to do the relationship thing

I dont know how to laugh

I dont know how to cry

I dont know why the harder I try the harder it gets

I dont know why my cat prefers the carpet to the litter box

I dont know if tomorrow ever comes of if it belongs to me

I dont know if UFO's exist

I dont know if professional wrestlers are faking it or not

I dont know if Eddie Haskell is really Alice Cooper

I dont know who wrote the book of love or if I even care

I dont know if "Louie, Louie" is the Great Western Mantra

I dont know if Elvis is dead or if Jim Morrison is alive

and running guns in Honduras

I dont know if you've heard the one about the Zen vacuum cleaner;

it has no attachments

I dont know why we die

I dont know what time is

I dont know if God plays dice

I dont know if reincarnation really matters

I dont know if meditation is the highest form of prayer

I dont know if prayer is the highest form of song

I dont know why Bob Dylan always sounds like its killing him to sing

I dont know if a woman named "J" wrote the Bible

I dont know why there are homeless children

I dont know why most men are proud of the fact that their underpants

are torn and frayed

I dont know how to get rid of the smell of catpiss in my carpet

I dont know why some people insist that the Holocaust never happened

I dont know why evil men prosper and the good die young

I dont know if God is a hairy thunderer or a cosmic elf named "Muffy"

I dont know if we'll ever develop cold fusion

I dont know if Shakespeare was gay

I dont know if Beethoven was black

I dont know J.R."Bob" Dobbs is the Messiah

I dont know why O.J. walked

I dont know why Jesus wept

I dont know if I have anything to prove

I dont know if I have anything to say

I dont know why these things happen

I dont know what the hell is going on

Paul McDonald

1187 East Broadway #3

Louisville, KY 40204

(502)583-8014

Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:03:53 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: Fave Zen Quote

My favorite zen koan:

"Zen is an aberration."

- Mortimer J. Adler

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:15:33 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch wrote:

> I wrote this last January when I hit a plateau in my spiritual paractice and

> showed it to various poeple who in turn pointed me to D.T. Suzuki's Book, "Zen

> Mind, Beginners Mind."

Frogive me for correcting you but "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" is NOT written by

D.T.

Suzuki. It's written by that other Suzuki who I believe founded the San Fran Zen

Center. Can't remember his first name.

ZM/BM is a wonderful book, but D.T. Suzuki is my personal fave and also was a

huge

influence on the Beats. Gary Snyder would hitch hike carrying D.T. Suzuki's

"Essays

on Zen Buddhism".

Since I've got your attention, there's a wonderful story about the time Jack,

Allen

and Peter met D. T. Suzuki. I'll find it and post it tomorrow.

John H.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:22:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: zen koan

Hello! zen koan: we know the sound of one ass braying

but do we really know the difference between

an ass and a hole in the ground

2 x 2 = 5

A.H.A.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:33:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

Thank you for correcting me. The author is Shunryu Suzuki.

Paul

"What is the sound of one clam humping?"

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:27:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

John H. wrote:

>Forgive me for correcting you but "Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" is NOT written

by D.T. Suzuki. It's written by that other Suzuki who I believe founded the

San Fran Zen Center. Can't remember his first name.ZM/BM is a wonderful

book, but D.T. Suzuki is my personal fave and also was a huge influence on

the Beats. Gary Snyder would hitch hike carrying D.T. Suzuki's "Essays on

Zen Buddhism".Since I've got your attention, there's a wonderful story about

the time Jack,Allen and Peter met D. T. Suzuki. I'll find it and post it

tomorrow. John H.

"Zen Mind, Beginners Mind" Shunryu Suzuki New York and Tokyo:John

Wetherhill, Inc.1970

Yes find that story and post it that sounds good. P.C.

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:55:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: USA TODAY today 6/17/96

Hello! Check out USA TODAY today 6/17/96 under Leisure Travel. Half page

titled "'On the Road' in a bohemian generation's footsteps." Based on

interview with Doug Brinkley lists his top picks of places to follow Beat

history. Doug called me from airport early this morning. He's just back from

Europe & headed to NYC for C-Spam interview tonight at 7PM. I'm producing

this New Orleans INSOMNIACATHON at Doug's request. Article lists Eisenhower

Center at Univ of New Orleans as sponsor for event & gives their number. They

are one of several sponsors: the literary renaissance, The Majic Bus, City of

New Orleans, Louisiana Arts Council, TRIBE magazine, CORPSE (formerly

EXQUISITE),

The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center, & The Howlin Wolf Club. I'm headed

to New Orleans in morn for few days work. When return I'll update you all on

event.

Event official title is: RANT for the literary renaissance & The Majic Bus

present Voices Without Restraint 48-Hour Non-Stop Music & Poetry

INSOMNIACATHON at The New Orleans Contemporary Arts Center & The Howlin Wolf

Club Aug 16-18.

Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:19:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject: Buddhist (if not zen) quote/Woodstock Journal

Comments: cc: RHulvey@aol.com

and what's the Work?

To ease the pain of living

Everything else, drunken

dumbshow

Allen Ginsberg "Memory Gardens"

-----------------

I first saw this quote in Ed Sanders' "Woodstock Journal", and it now occurs

to me I've never seen the paper mentioned here. Very much a local paper, and

more than that. Ultra-sane (lots of ha ha hee); environmentally concerned,

socially active, in the face and yes, poetry: Anne Waldman, Ginsberg,

Sanders, Robert Kelly, Richard Paridisio.

Some as yet unpublished stuff, I seem to recall.

Jules

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 02:51:24 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Tom Moody <tmoody@WILEY.CSUSB.EDU>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

>On Jun 15, 1996 23:27:02, 'Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>' wrote:

>>In Kentucky

>>I pass fast

>>on one lane bridges

>>Ron Whitehead

>In Amish country--

>Long line of fast cars behind

>Black horse and buggy.

>Mark J

In L>A>

Long line of fast cars creeping behind

another long line of fast cars.>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:17:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chanda J Pearmon <cjpearmo@MHC.MTHOLYOKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu>

In-Reply-To: <199606170358.DAA29637@pipe2.ny1.usa.pipeline.com>

can i get unsubscribed

cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu

/|\ ))_(( /|\

/ | \ (/\|/\) / | \

|-|------/--|-voV---\`|'/--Vov-|--\------|-|

|-| '^` (o o) '^` |-|

|-| Morpheus `\Y/' |-|

|-| cjpearmo@mhc.mtholyoke.edu |-|

|-| http://home.mtholyoke.edu/~cjpearmo |-|

|-| |-|

|-| "never know how i wanted to feel |-|

|-| never quite said what i wanted to |-|

|-| say to you and now the time is gone |-|

|-|______________________________________|-|

l /\ / ( ( \ /\ l

l / V \ \ V \ l

l/ _) )_ \I

`\ /'

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:54:30 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: What are these things?

In-Reply-To: <960615232702_135870349@emout16.mail.aol.com>

Hmm... interesting points. As a little aside, I've been taking Asian

History this past year, and as we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

Any comments?

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:00:00 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Kurt? A beat?

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960616091059.17960A-100000@voyager.cris.com>

Hmm...

This question has often puzzled me, too. I've listened to some of Kurt's

songs, and I can't stand them. I just don't have an appetite for rock

that heavy. However, a lot of people say he was like Kerouac in many

ways. Only, Kerouac didn't kill himself, and Kerouac wouldn't have

married Courtney Love...

puzzled,

Jonathan

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

"Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

of life."

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:08:24 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: JENS MOELLENHOFF <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: ZEN MIND? BEGINNERS MIND?

> I wrote this last January when I hit a plateau in my spiritual paractice and

> showed it to various poeple who in turn pointed me to D.T. Suzuki's Book, "Zen

> Mind, Beginners Mind." Maybe there is a state called the "Don't Know Mind" as

> opposed to, or complimented by, the "No Mind" state.

> JE NE SAIS PAS

> I dont know who I am

> I dont know what I want

> I dont know why I'm here

> I dont know who got here first

> I dont know what it all has to do with me

> I dont know why I dont make my bed

> I dont know why I keep losing my socks

> I dont know why my mom keeps calling me

> I dont know why I keep rolling that damn rock up the hill

> I dont know if I get enough sleep

> I dont know what it means when I fly in my dreams

> I dont know the appropriate life skills

> I dont know how it all works

> I dont know if I have any regrets

> I dont know how to not sweat the small shit

> I dont know how to hold my own with other guys

> I dont know how to do the relationship thing

> I dont know how to laugh

> I dont know how to cry

> I dont know why the harder I try the harder it gets

> I dont know why my cat prefers the carpet to the litter box

> I dont know if tomorrow ever comes of if it belongs to me

> I dont know if UFO's exist

> I dont know if professional wrestlers are faking it or not

> I dont know if Eddie Haskell is really Alice Cooper

> I dont know who wrote the book of love or if I even care

> I dont know if "Louie, Louie" is the Great Western Mantra

> I dont know if Elvis is dead or if Jim Morrison is alive

> and running guns in Honduras

> I dont know if you've heard the one about the Zen vacuum cleaner;

> it has no attachments

> I dont know why we die

> I dont know what time is

> I dont know if God plays dice

> I dont know if reincarnation really matters

> I dont know if meditation is the highest form of prayer

> I dont know if prayer is the highest form of song

> I dont know why Bob Dylan always sounds like its killing him to sing

> I dont know if a woman named "J" wrote the Bible

> I dont know why there are homeless children

> I dont know why most men are proud of the fact that their underpants

> are torn and frayed

> I dont know how to get rid of the smell of catpiss in my carpet

> I dont know why some people insist that the Holocaust never happened

> I dont know why evil men prosper and the good die young

> I dont know if God is a hairy thunderer or a cosmic elf named "Muffy"

> I dont know if we'll ever develop cold fusion

> I dont know if Shakespeare was gay

> I dont know if Beethoven was black

> I dont know J.R."Bob" Dobbs is the Messiah

> I dont know why O.J. walked

> I dont know why Jesus wept

> I dont know if I have anything to prove

> I dont know if I have anything to say

> I dont know why these things happen

> I dont know what the hell is going on

> Paul McDonald

> 1187 East Broadway #3

> Louisville, KY 40204

> (502)583-8014

> Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us

It took me 5 minutes to go through, but it sounds very very cool.

And Zen, even in an early stage of perfection, can be cool, can't it ?

But the heading isn't Zen-like at all. French in an English poem -

if it really is a poem - is sort of un-cool !

Jens

Jens Moellenhoff

Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

University of Munich, Germany

*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

*** William S. Burroughs ***

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:16:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ed Hertzog <exh112@PSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: What are these things?

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

>Hmm... interesting points. As a little aside, I've been taking Asian

>History this past year, and as we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

>Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

>Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

>Any comments?

>Jonathan

I would define a religion as any way of thought having faith/revelation as

an epistimological (sp?) basis. There are some things in these ways of

thought that would involve faith, such as Buddhist believing that there is

no such thing as self (ego). I know a little about Taoism and Buddhism, and

Zen, but I am unable to comment on Confucianism. In my opinion, these three

are religions.

Conversely, I would define a way of thought that uses reason as its

epistimology as a philosophy. I'm sure I'll get some grief over my opinions,

but here they are.

Ed Hertzog

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:03:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: now that's cool

how about english in a german poem. is that cool or uncool? or what about

spanish in a norwegian poem? or what about chinese under a tahitian moon? or

what about a worm in a bottle of tequila?

yellow dog

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:36:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject: goodbye farewell

Hello & farewell to all. Signing off AOL tonight. Just one more bill I

can't afford. Barely keeping the literary renaissance & White Fields Press

(not to mention my personal life) afloat. It was fun while it lasted & I wish

all of you The Best.

Ron Whitehead

P.S. List Provider please either sign me off or send info for me to do IT.

Thanks!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:22:33 +0000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject: Kerouac & DT Suzuki

Rummaging through my library last night, I found 3 books mentioning

Jack Kerouac's visit with D.T.Suzuki, the man credited with

singlehandedly introducing Zen Buddhism to the West (or, more

specifically, to LasSalle, Illinois).

The works from which I shall quote are the following:

"How the Swans Came to the Lake: A Narrative History of Buddhism in

America" 3rd Edition, by Rick Fields

"Desolate Angel: Jack Kerouac, the Beat Generation, and America" by

Dennis McNally

"D.T.Suzuki's Contribution to the West" essay by Larry A. Fader

contained in "A Zen Life: D.T.Suzuki Remembered" edited by Masao Abe

I begin with the Fields book, which gives the fullest account:

_The day "The Dharma Bums" was published, Kerouac, Ginsberg and Peter

Orlovsky were on their way to an elegant penthouse party in honor of

Kerouac's new novel, when Kerouac stepped into a phone booth and called

up D.T.Suzuki. Kerouac said he would like to stop by for a visit, and

Suzuki asked when he wanted to come by. "RIGHT NOW!" Kerouac yelled into

the receiver, and Suzuki said, "O.K." Kerouac, Ginsberg and Orlovsky all

trooped over to the borwnstone on West 94th that Suzuki shared with the

Okamuras.

"I rang Mr. Suzuki's door and he did not answer," Kerouac wrote in a

reminiscence published in the "Berkeley Bussei", the magazine of the

Berkeley Young Buddhist Association, in 1960,

-suddenly I decided to ring it three times, firmly and slowly, and then

he came - he was a small man coming slowly through an old house with

panelled wood walls and many books - he had long eyelashes, as everyone

knows, which put me in the mind of the saying in the Sutras that the

Dharma, like a bush, is slow to take root but once it has taken root it

grows huge and firm and can't be hauled up from the ground except by a

golden giant whose name is not Tathagata - anyway, Doctor Suzuki made us

some green tea, very thick and soupy - he had precisely what idea of

what place I should sit, and where my two other friends should sit, the

chairs already arranged - he himself sat behind a table and looked at us

silently, nodding - I said in a loud voice (because he had told us he

was a little deaf) "Why did Bodhidharma come from the West?" - He made

no reply - He said, "You three young men sit here quietly & write haikus

while I go make some green tea" - He brought us the green tea in cracked

old soupbowls of some sort - He told us not to forget about the tea -

when we left, he pushed us out the door but once we were out on the

sidewalk he began giggling at us and pointing his finger and saying

"Don't forget the tea!" - I said "I would like to spend the rest of my

life with you" - He held up his finger and said

"Sometime."_

Dennis McNally's Kerouac biography fills in a few holes:

_The afternoon of October 15, (1960)...Kerouac rang up the sage. When

Dr. Suzuki's secretary asked "When?" Jack shouted "Right now!" and the

three of them caught a cab...Their talk wandered into koans, and Jack

nervously showed the Roshi his own: "When the Buddha was about to speak

a horse spoke instead." Suzuki sighed that it was typically Western and

overcomplicated. "After all," the old man said, "the Buddha and the

horse had some kind of understanding there."....they...talked about old

Chinese prints and religion. In an embarassing excess, Jack volunteered

that he'd had samadhis (satori, bursts of enlightenment) that had lasted

up to half an hour, and lapsed into silence when Dr. Suzuki gently

remarked that a true samadhi had no time and all time. Impatient to get

to the Viking cocktails, Jack thought to leave, then indulged one of his

quicksilver bursts of enthusiasm and decided that Suzuki was his father.

He told the elder, "I would like to spend the rest of my life with you,

sir." Suzuki giggled and said, "Sometime," then came down to the steps

with them, waving goodbye with the comment, "Remember the green tea."_

Larry A. Fader includes in his essay a passage from a letter written to

him from Ginsberg dated 5/7/76:

(Ginsberg writes) _On the way to the publisher's party, Kerouac, myself

and Orlovsky visited D.T.Suzuki at his house in New York on a

spur-of-the-moment phone call, sat in his study, composed haikus on a

Sesshu print on his wall, and drank green tea with him that he prepared

- he saw us downstairs to bid adieux from his door opened on the front

stoop, waving goodbye, saying to us, "Don't forget the green tea."

(Fader writes) Suzuki believed that the Beat Generation...had

misunderstood his interpretation of Zen. "Spontaneity," wrote Suzuki,

"is not everything, it must be 'rooted'."_

I hope the list has enjoyed this. Posted comments and private e-mail are

welcome.

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

P.S. Don't leave us, Ron W.!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:25:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "W. Luther Jett" <MagenDror@AOL.COM>

Subject: re What are these things?

Ed Hertzog wrote:

>I would define a religion as any way of thought having >faith/revelation as

an epistimological (sp?) basis.

<snip>

>Conversely, I would define a way of thought that uses reason >as its

epistimology as a philosophy.

Okay, as a rough measure, I can buy this distinction, however, I think the

inter-relationship between the two concepts is more complex and the divisions

will never be quite so clear-cut. For example, both religion and philosophy

strive to define the relationship between human consciousness and the greater

cosmos.

I can think of some works which are defined as philosophical which are not

necessarily derived entirely from "reason" - Nietszche's entire ouevre, for

example. Indeed, Nietszche was, in some senses, decidedly anti-rational!

OTOH, you have works like Thomas Aquinas' _Summa Thologica_, which contain a

good deal of classical logical argument, yet which are essentially religious

in nature.

I don't have an alternative formula for delineating the difference between

the two concepts, but maybe that's because I have trouble seeing the two as

all that different.

Anyone know of a list-serv that deals with philosophy _per se_ (before we

drift too far off-topic)?

Luther Jett

PS to Ron Whitehead - Sorry to see you go; maybe there's an independent ISP

out there in Kentucky with cheaper rates?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:08:55 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: oriental vs occidental II

(Sound effects: listen to Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band's song

"Beautiful Loser" while reading: "He wants his home and security; he wants

to live like a sailor at sea.")

Ron writes:

>You lived the way Kerouac & Co. did but recognized how

>destructive it was. Fine. Destructive for you Destructive for them. Perhaps.

>Does that negate Kerouac & Co. in any way?

Face it: On the Road was not written by a happy person, let alone Big Sur.

In my opinion, Kerouac succeeded in his writing and failed at his personal

life. But he was a magnificent failure, and I'm interested in the reasons

why he failed. (In fact, brilliant failures are often more interesting than

successes: Kerouac was more interesting than Snyder, but Snyder was more

successful and effective as a human being.)

>Perhaps from your own experience &

>point of view but where does that leave us leave you? What is truth? Do you

>know?

It's just my experience; which is all anybody can claim. Ironically, if I'd

been listening, I would have heard the same thing from my father 25 years

ago! That's one advantage of not burning oneself out: to live long enough

to realize that parent's aren't such unreasonable people; it's children who

make them behave like maniacs.

>We move forward by the aid of symbols & we change those symbols as we

>move forward. Of what real profit is it to us, to deprive life of all its

>dreams, of all its beautiful mysticism and of all its lies (thank you K.H.)?

Whoa, now hold on thar... What deprived Jack's life of all its dreams, its

beautiful mysticism? I suspect alcoholism. Jack preferred to submerge his

problems in drink, rather than solve them. In general, it's easier to

substitute a defense mechanism (alcohol is one) for personal growth:

learning to deal effectively with life's problems.

>What do you mean What Kerouac did in his life didn't work for him.

Did he acheive the goals he set for himself? Did he consider himself a

success? Would he have set himself up as a role model? I think he would

have been horrified at the idea of people emulating him.

>With

>suffering comes humility, and with it, in the end wisdom (thank you J.S.).

Not always!

>Kerouac suffered much. He caused suffering (i.e. his daughter Jan). But what

>he did in his life worked for him in as many ways as it didn't.

Please be specific.

>His creative

>work is some of the best in the history of world literature (despite highbrow

>academic criticism).

Your opinion. My opinion: good as his writing is, he was capable of better.

>Pain and joy, failure and succes are different sides of

>same coin called human nature human being. To say this is good that is bad

>you succeeded because of this you failed because of that is reductive & does

>not allow full emotional mental physical spiritual depth of being human. We

>learn to walk but fall time & time again.

My point is that when Jack fell, he didn't learn to walk, he'd get drunk!

>To fail is to live to be human.

Success is nice too; and to be fully human we need people to whom we are

important, we need goals and we need a direction in our lives (often in the

form of work.)

>Breathe deep of failure of success of life.

>Yes Kerouac's life was stressful. And through that stress look at the

>beautiful gems he created gifts he gave to us which help us endure the pain

>the stress the suffering inherent in life.

So do we disagree? All I'm saying is he was a lovable failure, but I'm sure

as hell glad I never had to depend on him!

>Who knows what

>lessons a human being learns by being lazy, passive, self-destructive,

>nihilist, alcoholic, drug abuser? tolerance may be the greatest love.

I'm not intolerant: I wouldn't have had him arrested; in fact arresting and

jailing Cassady was a very destructive and hypocritical thing to do. BUT...

I do want to point out there are better ways to live a life. As Seger says:

We just don't need it all.

Write me in 20 years and let me know if your thinking has changed!

George

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 01:04:07 GMT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: What are these things?

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

On Jun 17, 1996 20:54:30, 'Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>'

wrote:

>we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

>Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

>Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

>Any comments?

The first is probably more a philosophy or collection of sayings from Lao

Tsu in the Tao Te Ching, an ancient Chinese text. Buddhism and

Confucianism are most certainly religions, both of which have large

followings and are measured in millennia. Zen or Zen Buddhism is a small

sect or offshoot of Buddhism and hence must also be considered a religion.

Mark J

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:20:21 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Dear Phil,

I think that the following is important and I would like you to put

it on the beat-list for me since I have some many problems to get it

through. I would really appreciate if you can do it for me. Merci pour ta

gentillesse! Jean

Hi everyone,

I found something that might interest a lot of you. A

journalist form "La Presse" newspaper in Montreal found that some

unpublished writing in French form Kerouac were exsisting form John

Sampas collection. Achmy Halley, the journalist from "La Presse",

knew about this information by Roger Brunelle, a Lowell citizen

who knows Kerouac's life from his days in Lowell. The text he found is

titled:"La nuit est ma femme" (The night is my wife) and was written

by Kerouac during the period he was writing "On the Road".

Now the marvelous thing is that this text was published in the June 1996

issue of the NRF (Nouvelle Revue Francaise)-Gallimard magazine.

This is of course a magazine written in French from France. I am a

francophone living in Montreal and it seems that the magazine will be available

July 10 th. As soon as I find it, I will let people know of what I think of

it.

>From Halley's point of view, the text is dealing with Jack's writter

vocation. Here's some line of the text:

"J'ai revez trop longtemps que j'etais un grand ecrivain.

J'appri ca dans les livres. Y avait un temps que je

pensais chaque mot que j'ecrirai etait immortelle.

J'embarqua ca avec un gros coeur romantique."

Here is my personnal translation (Don't forget that I am Francophone!)

"I dreamt too long that I was a great writer.

I learned that in books. There was a time that

I thought every words I was to write were immortal.

I took that with a big romantic heart."

If some of you would more interested in that text or in

the newspaper article from "La Presse", just e-mail me.

Jean

torso@generation.net

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:58:53 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject: Re: What are these things?

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer writes:

>...I've been taking Asian

>History this past year, and as we went into Taoism, Buddhism,

>Confucianism, and Zen, the question came up as to what they really were.

>Are they religions, or philosophies, or something in between?

>Any comments?

My own rough understanding:

Western categories such as "religion" and "god" don't work very well with

Eastern religions. In the west, the idea is to please the supreme being,

God, by living a moral life, avoiding sin. Eastern religions, when we

separate out the mythology, aim at acheiving what John Blofeld calls a

supreme state of being: the cultivation of immortality. Practices vary,

but include meditation, breathing exercises, and even sexual yogas

("Yabyum," which Confucians would find horrifying:

they are the puritans of the east.)

In Theravada Buddhism, the supreme state (Nirvana, which is not the same

as nothing) is the goal. Mahayana buddhists put off Nirvana to stay

here and work for the salvation of all beings. Taoism is an independent

Chinese tradition that influenced Buddhism on its way to Japan. And Zen is

simply Japanese Buddhism. Taoism aims at cultivation of the Way, or Tao.

Zen is (fundamentally) a set of breathing exercises.

The following is a quote from Blofeld's book:

"The Tao is unknowable, vast, eternal. As undifferentiated void, pure

spirit it is the mother of the cosmos; as non-void it is the container, the

sustainer and, in a a sense, the being of the myriad objects, permeating

all. As the goal of existence, it is the Way of Heaven, of Earth, of Man.

No being, it is the source of Being. It is not conscious of activity, has

no purpose, seeks no rewards or praise, yet performs all things to

perfection." The Road to Immortality; p. 2; Shambala 1978

Lately, I've been thinking that "tao" is a more useful concept than "reality."

George

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 22:37:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kurt? A beat?

Hello folks.

William Miller here.

In a message dated 96-06-18 00:08:01 EDT, Jonathan Kratter writes:

>Kerouac didn't kill himself

Oh really?

And what is up with all this asian religion stuff on the Beat List? If

there's a connection, may we continue to explore the connection. Beyond

that, i'm sure that there's a Zenlist or a BigDaddyBuddhaList out there

somewhere, eh?

miller

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:29:56 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject: Goodbye..

Hello all my fellow angelheaded hipsters,

The time has come when we must part company for the summer as I

sojourn to Maine to cultivate right-mindfulness and become more beatific

for the summer before returning to the dreary reality that is

highschool. This will be the final year that I flee northward to

beautiful Washington, Maine.

However, during this time, I will not have access to a computer

such that I can maintain membership on a list like this. However, if you

have any personal communication, you can still e-mail me at this address

and the mail will be forwarded to me at my camp.

Thus, after this Friday, I will be unsubscribing from this list.

But not until Friday.

Before I go, I have several parting comments.

The first is on an old, old thread, that is, whether Bob Dylan

was a beat. I had a sudden epiphany while listening to "Tom Thumb's

Blues." I don't have a set of lyrics, but listen and you'll hear:

"When you're down in Juarez in the rain and it's easter time too,

and your gravity fails and negativity don't pull you through