beat list 1996

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:04:03 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Andrew Arnold/CAM/Lotus

<Andrew_Arnold/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@CRD.LOTUS.COM>

Subject: On the Road Movie

>Last I heard Coppola's son was going to

>direct it. I know Francis Ford C is still involved in the concept

>one way or another. I'm basically hoping the idea stays in

>purgatory where it probably belongs.

I've always thought that the only way to do On The Road as a movie

would be through animation. This would allow for the fluidity and freeform,

expressionist style that made the book so important.

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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:05:05 EDT

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From: Andrew Arnold/CAM/Lotus

<Andrew_Arnold/CAM/Lotus.LOTUS@CRD.LOTUS.COM>

Subject: Lowell Is Cool

Having visited Lowell a number of times for both

Kerouac festivals and the Folk festivals, I can confidently

say that Lowell is the coolest city in Mass.

Between its ethnic mix, and its preservation of the milltown

feel, with appropriate renovation and little gentrification, it makes

for a delightful daytrip.

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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:36:07 -0400

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From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject: Tribe mag address

For all who are curious:

Tribe mega-zine is published monthly by big mouth media inc.

2042 magazine street

new orleans La

70130

504.524.5200

William Miller

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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:50:21 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Steve_Lescure@MAIL.AMSINC.COM

Subject: Re: How to subscribe

Comments: To: beat-l%cunyvm.BITNET@uunet.uu.net

can someone give me the address for subscribing to this list.

Thanks.

steve_lescure@mail.amsinc.com

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:27:55 -0400

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From: Rinaldo RASA <rasa@GPNET.IT>

Subject: {IN THE LIST}

Comments: To: steve_lescure@mail.amsinc.com

Comments: cc: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@ICINECA.CINECA.IT

Steve,

if this message come to my email

you are already in the list.

...like tears in the rain.

------------------------------------------------

Rinaldo RASA, v.Morlaiter 2, 30173 Venice, Italy

--- voice:(041)5317058, email: rasa@gpnet.it ---

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:22:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: MARILYN SOUDERS <NEWI05B@PRODIGY.COM>

Subject: Bath

bill,

i received back a notice that my response to you was distributed on

the Beat-L bb. i noticed this not when i replied to what i thought

was your private queue so i was quite free in opining about the

prissy drinking habits of mr. wang vis a vis yours and mclean's.

sorry if people from the betty ford center spirit you away.

btw, now peter's wife is on the job market so if you see any cuny

listings, forward them to me, OK?

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:49:18 -0400

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From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: FW: Insecurity kills!

At 05:38 PM 8/14/96 U, you wrote:

>(Third try sending. Sorry for any dupes...er, tripes?)

>The actual address of The Atlantic Monthly article is

><http://www.theatlantic.com/atlantic/issues/96aug/jackk/jackk.htm> -- and very

>good it is, too. Thanks Jim.

>So Phil, are the "Projects" in Watertown (where I was born in '51 and lived

>'til '62) yuppie heaven now too? (Who am I to talk, sitting five miles from

>Los Gatos?!)

>I'm afraid Watertown and the projects are what Jack's father once called

Lowell-----Stinktown USA

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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 23:59:21 -0400

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From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Buddhism

An interesting question. Jack had been called the master when it came to

Buddhism back in the Dharma Beat days and hanging with Snyder, Whalen,

Ginsberg and all. My question is, who learned what from who? Was Jack into

Buddhism before those guys or vica versa? Who was into it the most and who

taught who the most? I know Jack started reading about the Buddha early by

getting into Thoureau and Emerson but I wonder when he got real serious and

if Scripture of the Golden Eternity was the closest he ever came to nirvana.

Phil

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:07:47 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Rinaldo RASA <rasa@GPNET.IT>

Subject: {to anybody}

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@ICINECA.CINECA.IT

Comments: cc: Philzi@TIAC.NET

Vapid in the anything?

Am I in the list?

Does anybody have received

this message?

Please give some feedback,

also privately.

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

.\.

...like tears in the rain

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

rasa@gpnet.it

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

thanks a lot

friends

\\\\\\\\

------------------------------------------------

Rinaldo RASA, v.Morlaiter 2, 30173 Venice, Italy

--- voice:(041)5317058 email: rasa@gpnet.it ---

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 08:38:09 -0400

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From: Rodgers <Rodgers@TRACOR-A4.CCMGATE.TRACOR.COM>

Subject: Buddhism

Phil,

My vote would be for Gary Snyder. I'm sure his

farmerintellectualmysticism intrigued Jack, and as we all know, Jack

was quick to morph into those who intrigued him.

I can't agree that Jack was a master at Buddhism. I'm sure that he

immersed himself in the philosophy, but like so many, it was just an R

and R spot after the drinks started to taste bad.

I know that Phil Whalen is a Zen master, but unfortunately I don't

know much about him. I'll resort to my Portable Beat Reader for a

quick one.

I think Jack always had the guiltconflict of Catholicism and Buddhism

going on in his head, and at the end of his life regretted his

straying from Catholicism.

But certainly, it was Jack introduced us to the Dharma Beat, and a lot

of us have been dancing to it since.

Satori: I think I just realized why I love the guy.

Thanks Jack.

Ron Rodgers

Rodgers@tracor-a4.ccmgate.tracor.com

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:14:33 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Bath

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:22:59 -0500 from

<NEWI05B@PRODIGY.COM>

Frankly, I doubt that anyone will even notice your slanderous character assasin

ation of myself and that paragon of sobriety, Michael Brian McLean. And certai

nly no one can give a hoot about the goings on at Pratt. Everyone has hit the

wrong button sometime. But you always have to be on the alert when you reply t

o a message. I once repliedrather intemperately to a memo of Barbra's that had

been forwarded to me and instead of the reply going to the forwarder it went t

o her. Oops!

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:27:21 EDT

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Goofs!

A thousand apologies to everyone on the list. I was chastising my

friend Marilyfor not paying attention to where her e-mail was going,

when I inadvertently hitthe wrong button myself!

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:33:06 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: How to subscribe

In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:50:21 EST from

<Steve_Lescure@MAIL.AMSINC.COM>

Easy to sign on. Simply send an e-mail message to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. L

eave the subject line blank. In the body of your mail, type subscribe Beat-L

first name last name.

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:38:43 EDT

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From: Chris Hartley <chris.hartley@GS.COM>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

In-Reply-To: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET> "Buddhism" (Aug 15, 11:59pm)

yass, gs certainly got jack into the whole buddhism, zen gig. at gary's urging

the Scripture of the Golden Eternity was cranked out. the time they spent

together on firewatch in the northwest solidified jack's being drawn into the

buddhist concept...then. i think jack was drawn to gary's peace and humility.

as ron pointed out, it was merely a chapter in jack's life, for he totally

withdrew from buddhism and resorted to his catholocism later in life. that

guilt riddled catholic bringing up is a tough bug to get around and behind, i

guess. great read for the topic is Big Sky Mind, Buddhism and the Beat

Generation.

_________________________________________________________________

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ Chris Hartley

_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ Emerging Debt Markets

_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ voice: (212)-902-8110

_/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/ email: hartlc@fi.gs.com

_________________________________________________________________

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:33:11 -0400

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From: Stephen Davis <jd4716@NANDO.NET>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

In-Reply-To: <2146C590.1669@tracor-a4.ccmgate.tracor.com>

> I can't agree that Jack was a master at Buddhism. I'm sure that he

> immersed himself in the philosophy, but like so many, it was just an R

> and R spot after the drinks started to taste bad.

I've got to both agree and disagree with you here. While I've never seen

Jack as master Buddihist either, I do think that he did an incredible job

of creating his own religion; sort of a merger between budhism and

catholicism. I must say that I really think Jack saw his spiritual quest

as more than "R&R", to me his never ending question for "the truth" is

what makes him so endering. For any of you that have not read it, i

would *STRONGLY* encourage you to read _Desolation Angels_. Its my

favorite of all of Jack's books and it seems to center around the Beat

attitudes towards spirituality.

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:39:47 -0700

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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

I think that some accuracy is in order here. Gary Snyder did not get

Kerouac interested in Buddhism.

Kerouac became interested in Buddhism in '53 or '54 or so. His instigation

was the Cassady's interest in Edgar Cayce. These sort of things happen in

life. When a good friend of mine became a born again Christian I was

inspired to match his enthusiam with a furhter mor serious study of Zen

buddhism and we traded many letters. I think Kerouac's initial interest

began as a reaction to the Cayce influence on his best friends, where he

didn't buy into cayce lock stock and barrel like Carolyn and Neal, but he

did open up to the "eastern" concepts being bandied about and took to doing

his own study. I think he initially may have read various books on the

subject at the San Jose library when he was living in Los Gatos with the

Cassadys. I also remember hearing that he read french books about Buddhism

that he was able to find. The Buddhist Bible by Goddard is also mentioned

as a source book he used.

And Ginsberg has said that at first he didn't care much about Jack's new

obsession or field of study. Ginsberg didn't embrace too much until the

Berkeley SF '55 scene that is written about in the Dharma Bums.

Kerouac's notes on Buddhism that he began to keep were begun I think before

he met Snyder and the others, but it is true that meeting Snyder and a bunch

of others that were into Buddhism inspired his works like Scripture of the

Golden eternity and were written then.

So Kerouac got into Buddhsim before he met Snyder, Whalen and others. If

you remember one anecdote, shortly after Kerouac met the Berkely group, at

Kenneth rexroth's house Kerouac talked about Buddhism and Rexroth put him

down saying everyone in SF was all ready a Buddhist.

Kerouac's initial inspiration to study Buddhism as a reaction to the

Cassady's more new fangled new-agey Cayce reflects Kerouacs basic

conservatism. He went to the source. He never considered himself a Zen

Buddhist even but a traditional Buddhist. In terms of catholicism and

Buddhism, I see so many ritualisitic similarities between traditional

catholicism and traditional buddhsim it is amazing. I wrote something about

this months ago (maybe more) to this group using my friend's Catholic

wedding and Mother-in-laws traditional Buddhism.

If anyone has more accurate time frames or details on this subject please

share them.

To all you Buddhists out there, happy Ghost month. Hope you burned your money.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 16:54:26 -0400

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From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Buddhism ...and Zen Catholicism!?

>Kerouac.... never considered himself a Zen

>Buddhist even but a traditional Buddhist. In terms of catholicism and

>Buddhism, I see so many ritualisitic similarities between traditional

>catholicism and traditional buddhsim it is amazing.

>.......If anyone has more accurate time frames or details on this subject

please

>share them.

As a recent subscriber I've been watching and reading/listening.....and

enjoying.

I was struck by this exchange and by something in the Atlantic

Monthly article about Kerouac that described him as a prep school

kid...which prep school?

The one I went to was a Benedictine Monastery school in Rhode

Island, then Portsmouth Priory and now Portsmouth Abbey. With the

Benedictine influence there was already a similarity to things Buddhist; the

similarity was strengthened and emphasized by the fact that our Prior, Dom

Aelred Graham, O.S.B. who hailed from Ampleforth in England was very much

interested in Zen Bhuddism / Catholicism.

He wrote several books on the topic, now undoubtedly out-of-print.

Some friends of the school funded the construction of a beautiful little Zen

garden just outside of his office in a corner formed by the Monastery

building and our new chapel which was filled with 12th century stained glass

and other beautiful things Catholic. The garden was complete with a raked

sand pool.... very contemplative to sit there and hear the Gregorian chant

coming quietly through the thick fieldstone walls of the chapel.

I can see how Jack would have tried to synthesize something

influenced by the two faiths. ...but which prep school did he go to?

Another question of interest...can someone point me to anything - by

Kerouac or y others that discusses in any detail his specific bebop

interests beside the Slim Gaillard description in "On the Road". And

another...I have a recording of Jack's titled "Cockroach". Is that on the

recent CD of his work? ...anyone recognize it?

Best fun I've had in a while participating in this ...hope to be

more active in the future. How many of us are there?

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"Nolo urinare contra ventum..." [old roman legion saying]

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:49:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Buddhism ...and Zen Catholicism!?

> I can see how Jack would have tried to synthesize something

>influenced by the two faiths. ...but which prep school did he go to?

He went to Horace Mann in New York. His attendence was part of his football

scholarship to Columbia. I don't know how it worked--ie if it was his first

year of college or his last year of High School.

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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 19:18:27 +0300

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From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

>at gary's urging

>the Scripture of the Golden Eternity was cranked out. the time they spent

>together on firewatch in the northwest solidified jack's being drawn into the

>buddhist concept

I don't think they spent time together on firewatch. Gary had done so

previously and when Kerouac was up there Snyder was already in Japan.

Best,

Michael

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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 15:48:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: BURROUGHS

Dear all:

The following excerpt comes from Daniel Odier's 'The Job: Interviews With

William S. Burroughs":

Q: What is your relation to the Beat movement, with which you associate

yourself?...

A: I don't associate myself with it at all, and never have, either with

their objectives or their literary style. I have some close personal friends

among the Beat movement: Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and Gregory Corso

are all close personal friends of many years standing, but were not doing at

all the same thing, either in writing or in outlook. You couldn't really find

four writers more different, more distinctive. It's simply a matter of juxta-

position rather than any actual association of literary styles or over all

objectives.'

I am writing a paper based around this exchange for the upcoming Beat

Symposium in Lowell, and I am interested in hearing the opinions of members

of the list on the following questions: Should Burroughs be considered a

Beat writer? If so, in what sense and why? If not, why not?

Best,

David Schmid

SUNY Buffalo

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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:11:18 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Lowe <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs--

Hey David--

If Uncle Bill claims he aint beat, then my feeling is he aint beat--

And actually his thoughts abt "juxtapostion" & "association" make perfect

sense. The rest of it that we seem all too eager to buy into is publishers'

marketing schemes & cultural manipulation.

Do doubt a paper debating Bill's statement would be more "entertaining"

--but less authentically grounded in who he is & how he sees & chooses to

define himself.

Then again, be aware of the earlier thread here regarding the dingbat

quality of The Job's English translation....

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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:39:51 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject: Re: Burroughs--

In-Reply-To: <199608172011.QAA22007@wanda.phl.pond.com>

On Sat, 17 Aug 1996, Lowe wrote:

> Then again, be aware of the earlier thread here regarding the dingbat

> quality of The Job's English translation....

I assume you're referring to one of my earlier postings (6/28), in which I

compared one of WSB's answers in The Job with his answer to the same

question in the original French edition--which were significantly

different.

But as far as I can tell, the english edition was not meant to be simply

a translation of the french, but a revision of it, so differences between

the two are not the result of a faulty translation. And at any rate,

there shouldn't be any question of translation into english anyway,

since, again as far as I can tell, the interviews must have originally

been conducted in english, and then translated to french.

The passage here at issue (WSB's denial that he is a Beat)

is identical in both editions.

***

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

"August finally came in with a blast that

shook my house and augured little

augusticity."

***

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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 19:26:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: BURROUGHS

At 03:48 PM 8/17/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Dear all:

>The following excerpt comes from Daniel Odier's 'The Job: Interviews With

>William S. Burroughs":

>Q: What is your relation to the Beat movement, with which you associate

>yourself?...

>A: I don't associate myself with it at all, and never have, either with

>their objectives or their literary style. I have some close personal friends

>among the Beat movement: Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg and Gregory Corso

>are all close personal friends of many years standing, but were not doing at

>all the same thing, either in writing or in outlook. You couldn't really find

>four writers more different, more distinctive. It's simply a matter of juxta-

>position rather than any actual association of literary styles or over all

>objectives.'

>I am writing a paper based around this exchange for the upcoming Beat

>Symposium in Lowell, and I am interested in hearing the opinions of members

>of the list on the following questions: Should Burroughs be considered a

>Beat writer? If so, in what sense and why? If not, why not?

>Best,

>David Schmid

>SUNY Buffalo

>I think he is guilty by association. I don't think the beats have an actual

objective or are they closely similar in style just the opposite I think

their individuality gives them their uniqueness and that's part of being

beat. This is in part what Burroughs is saying. Corso is very much as

distinctively different to Kerouac as Burroughs is to Kerouac or for that

matter to Ginsberg but never less he is one of the original beats as is

Burroughs as is Ginsberg. I mean beat is only a label. Look forward to

seeing you at the festivl.

Sometimes you feel like a beat sometimes you don't.

Phil

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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:10:46 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Burroughs again

Thanks to those who have responded thus far to my earlier query -- I'll

tell you what I think once I have all my notes sorted out. In the meantime,

I have another, much smaller, but related query: can anyone tell me the source

for the quote from Burroughs on page xxxi of Ann Charters' Introduction to

the Portable Beat Reader? Thanks

David

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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:55:03 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "JAY S. GERTZ" <JGERTZ@UNCA.EDU>

Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville

Subject: Re: Beat Zen

Morning,

Regarding the current discussion on Beats and Zen. Two sources for more

info.: Alan Watts article on Beat Zen Square Zen in his book This is it. (Also

in other anthologies.) And a book that came out last year entitled Big sky

mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation by Carole Tonkinson, Riverhead Books.

Jay S. Gertz

Ramsey Library UNCA

(jgertz@unca.edu)

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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 17:19:44 GMT

Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:39:47 -0700,

Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> wrote:

>I think that some accuracy is in order here. Gary Snyder did not get

>Kerouac interested in Buddhism.

>Kerouac became interested in Buddhism in '53 or '54 or so.

>If anyone has more accurate time frames or details on this subject please

>share them.

In the "Selected Letters" of Kerouac the references to Buddhism start on p.

409. From Charters' intro to a letter of "early May 1954":

Thinking that Ginsberg had arrived from Mexico to stay with the Cassadys,

Kerouac wrote a long letter from his mother's apartment to relay the gossip

about their mutual friends on the East Coast and to tell Allen about his

discovery of Buddhism. Jack offered to send Allen "a 100-page account of

Buddhism" he had typed up from his reading notes in the San Jose Public

Library entitled "Some of the Dharma", but he cautioned Ginsberg that "it's

the only copy, we must take special care with it, right?"

>From another intro we know that "Kerouac arrived in San Jose in time for

Neal's twenty-eight birthday on February 8, 1954" (Selected Letters, p.

407), so Jack must have spent those three months reading and annotating

works like Goddard's "The Buddhist Bible" ("By far the best book because it

contains the Surangama Sutra and the Lankavatra Scripture, not to mention

the 11-page Diamond Sutra which is the last word" - Jack K., Selected

Letters, p. 415).

There are also references to Buddhism in letters from this period to

Carolyn Cassady, Malcolm Cowley, Robert Lax, Sterling Lord etc.

Regards,

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:03:31 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher R. Smith"

<Christopher_R._Smith@VOYAGER.UMERES.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject: Kerouac and Buddhism

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@MAINE.maine.edu

I am suprized and delighted to read all the posts concerning

Kerouac and Buddhism. I am currently finishing up a masters thesis

here at the University of Maine about the Kerouac's interest in Eastern

philosophy and how that influenced his poetry. From what I have

researched, the person named gallagher from USC has most of the correct

information. Kerouac DID NOT get into Buddhism by anyone's direct

influence. He actually stumbled onto Ashvaghosha's Life of the Buddha

in the San Jose library when he was looking for information about

Hinduism to help him fuel his argument with Cassady against the ideas

of Edgar Casey. This was at the very end of 1953. I think the real

beginning of Kerouac's interest in Eastern philosophy came with his

identification with the Buddha as a religious figure. Like he did with

so many other people in his life, Kerouac tried to follow the story of

the Buddha like a boy follows an admired older brother.

I am saying "Eastern philsophy" in general here instead of just

Buddhism though because Kerouac's interests were not at all confined to

Buddhism. He was all over the map, really, mostly focusing on Mahayana

Buddhist texts like the Diamond Sutra and the Suragama Sutra. I have

to disagree with all of the people, also, who think Kerouac abandoned

Eastern thinking after 1960 or so. This is a popular belief, mostly

based on the cross-vision ending of Big Sur. Kerouac did turn back to

a more Catholic vocabulary toward the end. He painted crosses and

pictures of the pope, for heaven's sake. However, he never stopped

talking about the Buddha and about life being emptiness. Anyone who

doubts this can read his last interview in Paris review, 1968. He

retells the story of the Buddha during the interview, placing himself

and Ginsberg into the story. Yes, Eastern thinking was very much on

his mind all the way up to the end.

I contend that Eastern philsophy was a pre-existing belief

system that strikingly paralleled the direction of poetics during the

1950s. It was, and is, a foreign "postmodern" system of thinking that

was available to Kerouac when no other local postmodern system was

around. As Kerouac--and all the Beats and San Francisco poets--were

early promotors of what now some people call postmodern poetics.

De-centered, process-oriented, highly physical work.

Be on the lookout for a new book coming out by Kerouac (yes, BY

JACK KEROUAC) called Some of The Dharma. It is essentially the notes

he took on Eastern philosophy for about 10 years--from 1953 up until

the 60s some time. It should be out, according to Penguin in early

spring 1997. As far as I know, it is the last major writing left to be

published by Kerouac. It should reveal quite a lot about his thinking

on this subject.

If anyone has more information, especially little known

information that cannot be found in the biographies, please let me know

personally or through these posts.

Christopher R. Smith

University of Maine

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:26:37 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Toni Rachiele <Toni_Rachiele@PRENHALL.COM>

Subject: J. D. Salinger

Is Salinger ever considered somewhat of a Beat writer? (I am in

publishing, not in the academic world, so I don't know all

there is to know about how writers are classified.) All the

dialogue about Buddhism reminds me of

J.D., though, and *Catcher* is a little bit Beat, at least. I never

thought of him this way until subscribing to this

list. He was certainly influenced by the classic Beat writers, even

if he's not officially one of the group.

What do the experts say?

Toni Rachiele <toni_rachiele@prenhall.com>

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:10:00 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Stedman, Jim" <JSTEDMAN@NMU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Kerouac and Buddhism

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@INTERBIT.CREN.NET

In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:03:31 EDT

Chris -- applauds on your being so near completion of your MA. I do not

know much of the biography behind Kerouac's indoctrination with Eastern

religions, but I found it surprising that you did not mention gary

Snyder, Phl Whalen, Kenneth Rexroth, et al., in your post. These cats

had _it_ (in the best of west coast fashions) long before the crazed

Canuck made his way out to San Francisco... but his interest, as you

mentioned, was piqued once he hit the coast. His disenchantment with

Cayce may have had something to do with it, but Neal had just gotten out

of prison, and Jack's guilty conscience wouldn't have allowed him much

spirit of attack -- even of religious principle. I've always figured

that it was his exposure to the mystics of Gary, Phil, McGorikle,

Rexroth and the like that started turning his head on.

Cheers,

Jim Stedman

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:29:29 EST

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject: Re: J. D. Salinger

Toni Rachiele writes:

> Is Salinger ever considered somewhat of a Beat writer? (I am in

> publishing, not in the academic world, so I don't know all

> there is to know about how writers are classified.) All the

> dialogue about Buddhism reminds me of

> J.D., though, and *Catcher* is a little bit Beat, at least. I never

> thought of him this way until subscribing to this

> list. He was certainly influenced by the classic Beat writers, even

> if he's not officially one of the group.

i've recently read a book on Salinger and his works by Warren French (Salinger

Revisited.. i believe is its title) and certainly created the impression that

Salinger hated the Beats and their lifestyle and even cites an example of

Salinger's disgust with Kerouac's DHARMA BUMS. from what i gather, Salinger's

rather clean living, upper middle class New York lifestyle did not make him very

fond of the rather bohemian atmosphere of Kerouac and the gang...

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:23:43 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Andrew Howald <and_how@IDIOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac and Buddhism

=========================================================================

Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:06:29 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Christopher R. Smith"

<Christopher_R._Smith@VOYAGER.UMERES.MAINE.EDU>

Organization: University of Maine

Subject: Re: J. D. Salinger

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.bitnet@MAINE.maine.edu

Toni-

As a response to your questions about Salinger, my marginally academic

opinion would be that he is not at all considered a Beat writer, but I

certainly see what you mean about him having a few Beat-like qualities.

Salinger is considered a one of the major post-war Jewish (I know, it

sounds very un-PC) authors, along with Saul Bellow, Malamud, and

others. (Forgive me if I spelled either of those names wrong). I am a

big fan of Salinger's and have been for a long time. If you havn't

already read Seymour, An Introduction, take a look at the first 5 or 10

pages. In there he makes a pretty biting comment on Beat writers in

general that may begin to answer your question about how he fits with

them. He was very much part, at least in the beginning, of the New

York (New Yorker) establishment, both politically and artistically. He

was not "experimental" in the ways the Beats were. The most

interesting thing about Salinger, aside from the obvious beauty of his

minutely crafted prose, is his undercurrent of Eastern philosophical

ideas throughout his small body of work. This was something he

definitely had in common with the Beats.

Christopher

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:05:43 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Torrey Hillinger <teej@SOVER.NET>

Subject: unsubscribe

Sign off BEAT-L

thanks

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:21:25 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject: Is Burroughs a Beat?

I'm just wondering what exactly is the point of asking that question? It

seems like a pointless semantic exercise to me. Burroughs also talks

about Korzybski and General Semantics in _The Job_, and includes a

passage about the power of meaningless words. What happens when you call

someone a fascist? It seems to me that determining whether Burroughs is

a beat or not relies entirely upon your definition of what a beat writer is.

I won't proffer a definition, but I think Burroughs' place in the

literary tradition of the second half of the 20th century was fixed by

Jennie Skerl in _William S. Burroughs_, (G.K. Hall & Company, 1985) as an

avant-garde experimentalist writer who in his time is\was only

appreciated by an intellectual elite.

Art critics spend half their time creating and classifying 'schools';

which is not quite as pervasive and consuming a practice

with literary scholars, but it happens nonetheless. Saying "Burroughs is

a beat writer," or "Burroughs is not a beat writer" seems to me to

amount to pretty much the same thing - nothing. When the goal of enquiry is

immaterial, why ask? If you simply want to discuss the relation

Burroughs has to the other writers and writing that people commonly label

Beat, then that seems like it could be fruitful. To come to the end of

the paper and declare , "Burroughs is a beat writer" would seem rather

spurious. I guess this delves into some basic hermeneutics but hey, why

not? (I'm sure Mr. Hasbrouck with his experience on the Bloom list might

take this one up ;-)

Don't mean to be offensive, and I hope noone takes offence, but is it not

more useful to ask, "How do Bukowski's work and Kerouac's compare as

regards ______?" or "How does Salinger's Eastern leanings contrast with

Snyder's buddhism (or Kerouac or Ginsberg)?" than it is to ask

"Is Dylan\Salinger\Bukowski\Waldman Beat?"

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 21:24:00 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: David Schmid <SCHMID@UBVMS.BITNET>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject: Burroughs/Beat

I'd like to respond to Neil Hennessy's recent post. I certainly agree with

you, Neil, that there are many more useful questions to ask about Burroughs

than 'is he a Beat writer?' However, when the vast majority of literature

about the Beat movement includes Burroughs as part of that movement (as if

such an inclusion is completely unproblematic) then I think you have to

admit that the question 'in what sense can Burroughs be considered a Beat

writer or not?" becomes rather more germane. Indeed, I find it ironic that

there is far more discussion amongst 'Beat' writers themselves about what

exactly a 'Beat' writer is than there is on this list. I think it would be

very useful to have a discussion about what exactly characterizes 'Beat'

literature, and whether there is even such a beast. In the case of Burroughs,

my feeling is that his identification as a Beat writer tends to obscure much

of what is most powerful and innovative about his work, and represents another

attempt to 'pigeonhole' Burroughs (a process Burroughs himself has described

in his essay 'My Purpose is to Write for the Space Age.') I wonder to what

extent we are all participating in such pigeonholing simply by maintaining

this list.

Let the sparks fly!

David Schmid

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:32:11 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "M.Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: Buddhism

On Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:33:11 -0400

Stephen Davis <jd4716@NANDO.NET> wrote:

Subject: Re: Buddhism

> For any of you that have not read it, i

>would *STRONGLY* encourage you to read _Desolation Angels_. Its my

>favorite of all of Jack's books and it seems to center around the Beat

>attitudes towards spirituality.

To add to this suggestion, I would encourage everyone to read

Gary Snyder's *Earth House Hold*. The beginning of the book

deals with the summers of '52 and '53, when G.S., J.K., and P.W.

were on firewatch up in the Pacific N.W., as well as various spiritual

shtuff.

"9 August

Sourdough: Jack, do you know if a fly is an electrical conductor? (over)

Desolation: A fly? Are you still trying to electrocute flies? (over)

Sourdough: Yeah I can make em twitch a little. I got five number

six batteries on it (over)

Desolation: I don't know, Schubert, keep trying, Desolation clear."

>From *Earth House Hold* by Gary Snyder (p.7), New Directions Publishing

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:41:08 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "L.Kelly" <lpk@KDSI.NET>

Subject: Re: Burroughs/Beat

In-Reply-To: <01I8IHAFYT228Y0PZK@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, David Schmid wrote:

[snip]

> in his essay 'My Purpose is to Write for the Space Age.') I wonder to what

> extent we are all participating in such pigeonholing simply by maintaining

> this list.

Perhaps this reflects the notion that the beats were more a part of a

social movement than a literary movement. Burroughs said something just

like that, I can't place it at the moment, but I think it was in The Job.

I hope I don't step on too many toes, but I think that beat literature is

eclectic and almost transparant: perhaps there is a split of sorts

between the social and literary aspects of the beats, and if so,

perhaps the social hemisphere is dominant.

Burroughs appears to agree with this. But Burroughs is

quite idiosyncratic and confuses the hell out of casual readers, so who's

to say.

:-)

---

Luke Kelly

lpk@kdsi.net

http://www.bigtable.com

http://www.kdsi.net

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 00:10:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: "Neal S> Meritz MD" <Nsmeritzmd@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: unsubscribe

SIGN OFF Beat L

=========================================================================

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:41:18 +1000

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Jens Moellenhoff <JMOELLEN@NW80.CIP.FAK14.UNI-MUENCHEN.DE>

Subject: Re: Burroughs/Beat

>I'd like to respond to Neil Hennessy's recent post. I certainly agree

>with

>you, Neil, that there are many more useful questions to ask about

>Burroughs

>than 'is he a Beat writer?' However, when the vast majority of

>literature

>about the Beat movement includes Burroughs as part of that movement (as

>if

>such an inclusion is completely unproblematic) then I think you have to

>admit that the question 'in what sense can Burroughs be considered a

>Beat

>writer or not?" becomes rather more germane. Indeed, I find it ironic

>that

>there is far more discussion amongst 'Beat' writers themselves about

>what

>exactly a 'Beat' writer is than there is on this list. I think it would

>be

>very useful to have a discussion about what exactly characterizes

>'Beat'

>literature, and whether there is even such a beast. In the case of

>Burroughs,

>my feeling is that his identification as a Beat writer tends to obscure

>much

>of what is most powerful and innovative about his work, and represents

>another

>attempt to 'pigeonhole' Burroughs (a process Burroughs himself has

>described

>in his essay 'My Purpose is to Write for the Space Age.') I wonder to

>what

>extent we are all participating in such pigeonholing simply by

>maintaining

>this list.

Well spoken. I think that Burroughs left the Beat circle by inventing

his cutup-method and by writing non-fiction like NAKED SCIENTOLOGY and

ELECTRONIC REVOLUTION,that I both want you to read. Junkie & Naked Lunch

are defenitely beat books because they deal with "Beat themes" like

drugs, homosexuality, crime, disgust for the modern us society. And in

my opinion, they are more conventionally written as the cut up novels.

Brion Gysin was the non-Beat influence Burroughs had.

Greetings, Jens

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 00:48:28 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: William S Schofield <wss@SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Unsubscribe

In-Reply-To: <199606222259.WAA29198@pipe1.ny3.usa.pipeline.com> from "Joseph

Pizzo" at Jun 22, 96 10:59:33 pm

pleasee un sub scribe me im tired and bloo

woob

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:28:07 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From: Chris <UK00028@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: CFP: William Burroughs (9/15; NEMLA) (fwd)

I don't think I've seen this on the list. Apologies if I'm wrong.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

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Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:48:28 -0400 (EDT)

From: "Douglas Baldwin (GD 1996)" <douglas.baldwin@yale.edu>

To: cfp@english.upenn.edu

Subject: CFP: William Burroughs (9/15; NEMLA)

Sender: owner-cfp@dept.english.upenn.edu

Precedence: bulk

CALL FOR PAPERS ON WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS:

1997 NORTHEAST MODERN LANGUAGE ASSOCIATION

APRIL 4-5 1997 PHILADELPHIA, PA

DEADLINE: Papers must be postmarked by 15 September.

Decisions will be made before 15 October.

Panelists must be members of NEMLA before 1 November.

WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS: CAREER RETROSPECTIVE: