Kerouac....
bfn,
JDL
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:33:19 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: This silly canonical issue
I, for
one, would love to see more mention of Bukowski and lots of
others. What is bugging me is that every month we
get some post from
another
sophmore who has just discovered someone and wants to know if
they is
or if they isn't "beat".
The
problem with "beat" as literary term, even more than most such
labels
is that it is really a social tag for a group of friends.
Ginsberg
and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they
were
friends and that at least Ginsberg admired WB--I'm not sure WB
admires
anybody. Ginsberg and Kerouac seem to
me to share some things
in
their vision. Some Beats do, some don't.
I'd be much
more interested in the influence of Kerouac or Burroughs on
Hunter
Thompson (I would see more WB) than in whether of not Hunter is
"beat."
Good
writing, thank God, surpasses labels and the dogma of any movement.
I don't think the writers wasted any time
wondering whether or not they
were
Beat.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:05:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Robert Peltier
<Robert.Peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video
clip?] The Miller take
>In
a message dated 96-08-28 11:25:31 EDT, Peltier write:
>
><<
MTV is commerce imitating art. There is
nothing new or revolutionary
>about
>
the style or techniques of rock video; film and other media were employing
>
these techniques many decades ago. If
you see "quick cuts, moving
>
hand-held camera, zooms" etc in a video and then see them in film, you
>
cannot assume that the video came first.
Cinema Verite, using hand-held
>
cameras, predates rock videos. A 1960s
television show called "I Spy" was
>
famous for its zooms. Look at the
Beatles films (which were influenced by
>
earlier films). MTV videos (with a few
exceptions) are just cheap
>
imitations of what came before them.
>
>
When I hear "MTV generation," it is usually in a context that
denigrates
>
that generation (unfairly, I think, since I believe "generation" is a
false
>
construct to simplify and commodify targets for ad agencies).
>
>
The "Beat Generation" (again, I'm using this term only as a
comparison,
>
since I don't believe in it), was a group of people experimenting, pushing
> at
boundaries, trying--with various levels of success--to create something
>
new. Critics may argue whether they
were successful in their attempts to
>
create art (I happen to think they were successful), but their attempts
>
cannot be denied. >>
>
>HEY
HEY HEY
>
>It
sounds like a case of competing elitisms here.
>
>Was
"The Beat Generation" not commerce and art? The GREAT lengths to which
>AG
went to get Burroughs published.... was WSB not creating art, and AG
>turning
it into commerce????
You're
trying to make me a straw man here. I
never said commerce and art
were
incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis. If Kerouac had
only
been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his
first
novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for
many
years. He didn't. He took chances. (And, yes, there is a thing
called
"art")
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:29:51 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Sean McDonnell
<smcdonne@DOLPHIN.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: commerce
In-Reply-To: <v01520d01ae4ba7a08070@[157.252.97.38]>
from "Robert Peltier" at
Aug 29, 96 04:05:53 pm
so
what's so wrong about phony structures and commerce-aiding
labeling...it
helps provide confusion and grist in the rebel stomach.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:03:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: John Iaquinta
<JIaqui2615@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]
I saw Barfly shortly after it was
released without any knowledge of
Bukowski,
having watched it again recently (after reading C.B.'s Pulp), I
recalled
a friend having told me that it was largely autobiographical.
Anyone know if there's any truth to that, I'm
shamefuly ignorant of his
personal
life.
Eternally
Lecherous,
John
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:59:12 GMT
Reply-To: i12bent@hum.auc.dk
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "B. Sorensen"
<i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>
Subject: Ginsberg records with Paul McCartney
This
just in from web-zine Addicted to Noise
Check
it out with graphics at:
http://www.addict.com/html/lofi/MNOTW/display-news.cgi?96-08-29
>
----------------------------------------------
>
> Odd Couple: Allen Ginsberg &
Paul McCartney?
>
>
> Addicted To Noise staff writer Gil
> Kaufman reports: In the tradition
of William
> Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, word
came
> yesterday that famed Beat poet
Allen Ginsberg
> has teamed up with Paul McCartney,
Patti
> Smith guitarist/producer Lenny
Kaye and
> minimalist composer Philip Glass
to record a
> version of his 1995 protest
song/poem,
> "Ballad of the
Skeletons," first published in
> The Nation last November.
Apparently, Mercury
> Records President Danny Goldberg
caught a
> Ginsberg reading recently and fell
in love
> with the work, and since Ginsberg
has long
> counted McCartney as one of his
pals, one
> thing led to another and this odd
quartet got
> together and McCartney laid down
some drums,
> guitar, Hammond organ and maracas,
Kaye added
> some bass and produced the single
and Glass
> filled in any gaps on piano.
Additionally,
> avant-garde guitarist Marc Ribot
is on the
> track. As you might recall,
Ginsberg had
> previously recorded with the
Clash. One of
> the best known poets from the Beat
era,
> Ginsberg's best-known work remains
the epic
> "Howl." Not
surprisingly, the new single is
> slated for an October 8 release,
in time to
> stir up a little presidential
election action
> and maybe create the unlikely
scenario of
> Ginsberg sitting down to some
early-morning
> coffee and chatter with Katie
Couric and
> Bryant Gumbel. Yeah, sure.
Regards,
bs
Department
of Languages and Intercultural Studies
Aalborg
University, Denmark
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:06:36 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "John W. Hasbrouck"
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Kerouac's October
Just
finished reading Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" last
night.
This puts me at the beginning of November 1952 in my
chronological
reading of the published Beat canon.
"October"
gave me a good feeling Kerouac's maturation as a writer in the
18
months or so since he'd pounded out the first scroll draft of "On the
Road"
in April 1951. After retyping and revising (and considerable
obsessing
over) OTR, he began to seriously pursue his "sketching"
technique
in the fall of that year just before going west to move in
with
Neal and Carolyn Cassady in San Francisco. In the Cassady's attic
Jack
"rewrote" OTR, eventually renaming that manuscript "Visions of
Cody".
VOC was of course a tour de force of experimental acrobatics
which
ultimately, I think, exhausted (for the time being) Jack's need to
immortalize
Neal. "Mexican Fellaheen" (from "Lonesome Traveler")
documents
Jack's experiences during the few days between the time he was
dropped
off at the Mexican border by Neal and family, and Jack's arrival
at
Burroughs' pad. Neal has no presence in
"Mexican Fellaheen".
Staying
with Burroughs, Jack smoked "three bombers a day" and wrote "Dr.
Sax"
in a month. This book turns even further away from Neal's influence
back to
Jack's adolescence in Lowell. I finished it last week and found
its
brilliance almost blinding, like driving into the sun. Listening to
the
1960 audio recording of Kerouac reading from DS was tremendously
helpful.
The text has a density approaching "Naked Lunch", and Jack's
slow,
nostalgic reading brought out condensed, multi-layered meaning in
each
phrase.
The
Beat correspondence of the summer/fall of 1952 is bizarre.
Especially
Kerouac's infamous raging rant at Ginsberg written the first
week of
October. (You know which one I'm talking about. Gee, wouldn't
THAT
letter be fun to discuss...)
Which
brings me back to "October in the Railroad Earth", written in a
flop
house on skid row in San Francisco while Jack worked as a brakeman
during
October (of course) 1952 and drank Tokay wine. I'm sure the wine
had a
lot to do with the relaxed rhythm of the prose, but I also wonder
if, in
the year and a half since Jack had pounded out his "great
American
novel", created his own "Ulysses" (VOC), and dove deep into his
psyche
to produce a fantasy novel of childhood dreams, whether he had
simply
gotten to the point where he no longer had to prove to himself or
anybody
that he was a great writer. (Although readers of the
abovementioned
10/52 letter may dispute this view.) I believe that at
this
point in his career he simply could not NOT write.
Comments?
John
Hasbrouck
Chicago
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:42:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "J.D. P. Lafrance"
<J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>
Organization:
Ridley College
Subject: Re: Kerouac's October
John W.
Hasbrouck writes:
>
Which brings me back to "October in the Railroad Earth", written in a
> flop
house on skid row in San Francisco while Jack worked as a brakeman
>
during October (of course) 1952 and drank Tokay wine. I'm sure the wine
>
had a lot to do with the relaxed rhythm of the prose, but I also wonder
>
if, in the year and a half since Jack had pounded out his "great
>
American novel", created his own "Ulysses" (VOC), and dove deep
into his
>
psyche to produce a fantasy novel of childhood dreams, whether he had
>
simply gotten to the point where he no longer had to prove to himself or
>
anybody that he was a great writer. (Although readers of the
>
abovementioned 10/52 letter may dispute this view.) I believe that at
>
this point in his career he simply could not NOT write.
>
Comments?
"October
in the Railroad Earth" is one of my favourite pieces of prose by
Kerouac
and my first exposure to it was the excerpt he read on the CD Box Set...
powerful
stuff! this work seems even more impressive when you hear him read it
and
catch all the little nuances and inflections... as MEMORY BABE points out,
it
doesn't always seem to make sense on the page, but when you hear him read it
or you
read it aloud it becomes more coherent... but i think there are just some
wonderful
images in "October" - vintage Kerouac to be sure....
"...and
I go to the wailbar of all the wildbars in the world the one and only
Third-and-Howard
and there I go and drink with the madmen and if I get drunk I
git."
bfn,
JDL
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:51:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video
clip?] The Miller take
In-Reply-To:
<v01520d01ae4ba7a08070@[157.252.97.38]>
On Thu,
29 Aug 1996, Robert Peltier wrote:
>
>Was "The Beat Generation" not commerce and art? The GREAT lengths to which
>
>AG went to get Burroughs published.... was WSB not creating art, and AG
>
>turning it into commerce????
>
>
You're trying to make me a straw man here.
I never said commerce and art
>
were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis. If Kerouac had
>
only been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his
>
first novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for
>
many years. He didn't. He took chances. (And, yes, there is a thing
>
called "art")
An
interesting piece on this subject is Burroughs' "Beauty and the
Bestseller"
(in _The Adding Machine_) in which he gives advice on how to
write
frankly commercial stuff. But he concludes: "You don't sit down and
concoct
a bestseller. I've tried. Either the story runs away with you and
gets
out of hand and you write what you have to write, or else you strike
lucky
and get a subject the public wants anyway."
***
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
"Human
time is measured in terms of human
change. So the
most flagrant time-wasting
may minimize
change and thus conserve time"
***
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:50:03 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Railroad Earth
Another
vote from a "Railroad Earth" fan--to my mind one of the best
introductions
to Kerouac there is and much better if you have heard
Jack's
bit from the boxed set.
I live
within the sound of that piece of track now, and it's nice to
remember
Jack and Neal on that train (there it goes) when the SF
Peninsula
was so different--when "3 Com Park" was a stock yard and
before
redevelopment got ahold of so much of South of Market. Just
great,
relaxed, mature writing. I try to read
it every October.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:13:54 CST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Bob Jordan
<enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Railroad Earth
I
recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a world!)
ON disc
three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on the same.
Can anyone
tell me where that piece was published, and how I might obtain a
copy of
it? Thanks, Bob Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:07 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Wild Boys
Hello
folks.
I just
finished reading _The Wild Boys_ for the first time. Has anyone else
on this
list read this novel LATELy?
If you
have, and would like to discuss it, I'd like to hear from you.
William
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:29 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Burroughs admires..........
In a
message dated 96-08-29 15:35:52 EDT, James Stauffer write:
<<
Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they
were friends and that at least Ginsberg
admired WB--I'm not sure WB
admires anybody. >>
Well, I
can tell you one thing --- Burroughs (IMHO) admires Conrad. Also
Denton
Welch, which is apparent.
William
Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The
Miller take
In a
message dated 96-08-29 16:15:58 EDT, Peltier write:
<<
You're trying to make me a straw man here.
I never said commerce and art
were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of
emphasis. If Kerouac had
only been interested in making big money, he
would have followed up his
first novel with another similar, and he
would have made a nice income for
many years.
He didn't. He took chances. (And, yes, there is a thing
called "art")
>>
The
Burroughs take from the Adding Machine speaks well.
(Thanks
to Jeff Taylor for this): An interesting
piece on this subject is
Burroughs'
"Beauty and the Bestseller" (in _The Adding Machine_) in which he
gives
advice on how to write frankly commercial stuff. But he concludes: "You
don't
sit down and concoct a bestseller. I've tried. Either the story runs
away
with you and
gets
out of hand and you write what you have to write, or else you strike
lucky
and get a subject the public wants anyway."
i HAD
the same quote in mind. I think that it
addresses this topic.
Kerouac
had no guaranteed way to make a best-seller or better-selling novel.
I believe that he was doing his best to
best-sell, but it's all just
stabbing
in the dark.
The
statement "He took chances." (Peltier) is one I disagree with
somewhat.
He did and he didn't. Making yourself some sort of celebrity (and
playing
celebrity
when given the chance) works to insure your success in the vein of
commerce
(rather
than making a mark in the canon).
"And,
yes, there is a thing called "art"....." Well, that varies from
person
to
person. Sort of like- there is a thing
called truth. I never said that
there
was NOT a thing called "art" (an equally absurd statement) but that I
hate
the term.
One of
the big BEAT GENERATION topics (I would think) would be the successes
of JK, AG,
and WSB at MERGING the creative and the commercial (not merely the
marketable
but the commercial).
I have
heard that writing is the most intimate form of communication between
two
men, one sitting at his desk, the other seated in a chair. For these
three
men, and others associated with them, it's never been like that.
AG and
WSB are both old men now, and have gone far beyond the relationship
between
writer and reader, delving into other art forms, commercial
enterprises,
et cetera. Kerouac did an immensely
personal thing. He
couldn't
stop writing about himself, and his life stories have impressed
many. It's not merely an "academic"
thing or a "literary" thing.
It's a
BEAT
thing.
If
they're a literary movement, are they not the MOST celebrity/commercial
lit
movement? They've been public figures,
drawing attention to themselves
in what
was a most un-writerly way.
*****I
thought**** that they were purposefully running COUNTER to academe,
and
their exclusion from the "canon" (and their celebrity status) would
be to
their
liking. Is it not to our liking? Or
would that be saying that it's not
"ART" (gasp!)?
William
Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:51:19 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "J.D. P. Lafrance"
<J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>
Organization:
Ridley College
Subject: Re: Railroad Earth
Bob
Jordan writes:
> I
recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a
>
world!) ON disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on
>
the same. Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might
>
obtain a copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan
i
believe you're referring to the "Is There A Beat Generation?" track?
that was
originally
from an essay Kerouac wrote for PLAYBOY magazine entitled, "Beatific:
The
Origins of the Beat Generation" (i believe that's the title) but it is
reprinted
in THE PORTABLE JACK KEROUAC book that's out in stores... it's
considerably
longer than what Jack read on the box set - well worth a looksee...
bfn
JDL
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:13:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Robert Peltier
<rpeltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The
Miller take
>
>"And,
yes, there is a thing called "art"....." Well, that varies from
person
>to
person. Sort of like- there is a thing
called truth. I never said that
>there
was NOT a thing called "art" (an equally absurd statement) but that I
>hate
the term.
>*****I
thought**** that they were purposefully running COUNTER to academe,
>and
their exclusion from the "canon" (and their celebrity status) would
be to
>their
liking. Is it not to our liking? Or
would that be saying that it's not
>"ART" (gasp!)?
>
>William
Miller
>
If
you're referring to a rather dated and elitist notion of "art"
(current
when
Kerouac et al were writing) then I would agree with the first paragraph
above.
But my
criterion for art is that it must force us to look at the world in
new
ways and shake us from our easy, received perceptions. I believe the
beats'
work did that.
And
that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my
introductory
literature courses (where I tell students that literature is
whatever
the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),
I teach
Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,
Sophocles,
Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of
aesthetics.
One
could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac, the beats, and their
successors,
"running COUNTER to academe," changed the academy and became
part of
it as a consequence. I'm not quite
ready to make that argument yet,
but I'd
be interested to hear what others have to say on that subject.
================================================================
Robert
Francis Peltier
Lecturer
in the Writing Center
Trinity
College
Hartford,
Connecticut 06106
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:26:26 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>
Subject: Re: Wild Boys
Comments:
To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>
On Fri,
30 Aug 1996 09:33:07 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM> wrote:
> I
just finished reading _The Wild Boys_ for the first time. Has anyone else
> on
this list read this novel LATELy?
>
> If
you have, and would like to discuss it, I'd like to hear from you.
I'm not
sure if you wanted this posted to the list, but hey, why not? When
asked
by people I meet why I like Burroughs or what book by him they should
read to
be best introduced to his work, I recommend _The Wild Boys_. The way I
look at
his work, it is a transitional piece, somewhere between the cut-up
trilogy
and the narrative structure of the Cities trilogy.
There
are Wild Boys running through the rest of his oeuvre disrupting American
power
structures, cavorting about sticking it to the military and matriarchal
family
constructs, and causing a general ruckus throughout history. We also get
to see
the first bit of tenderness from Burroughs with the first of the boys
going
on gay 'journeys of discovery' that are littered throughout the next ten
years
of his writing. (The golf course scenes are the ones I remember most
vividly
from The Wild Boys, along with the green boy and the river).
The
cut-ups are still present, running through the book, tying it together in
the
Penny Arcade Peep Show chapters, so he hasn't abadoned the cut-up method
quite
yet.
There
are also some of the funniest passages Burroughs has ever written in
_The
Wild Boys_. The opening bit with the crazy-eyed flower vendor is great,
and the
one about the Mother Superior with a strap-on was hilarious.
One of
the other important things to note about The Wild Boys is the cinematic
structure
that has creeped into the work. This comes soon after Dutch Schultz,
Burroughs'
failed attempt at script-writing. He eventually conceded that it
didn't
work as a film script and released it under the suspect title of "The
Last
Words of Dutch Schultz: A Fiction in the Form of a Film Script". _The Wild
Boys_
comes much closer to marrying the two forms (fiction\film) by always
giving
a camera's eye view, prefacing each scene with camera instructions
like
'zoom in' or 'close up'. To see how this develops read 'Blade Runner: A
Movie'.
You
should also read _Port of Saints_ since it was taken from largely the same
material
as _The Wild Boys_. PoS contains more actual Wild Boys material than
_The
Wild Boys_.
Other
than _Dead Roads_, _The Wild Boys_ is the Burroughs book I have re-read
the
most. Great stuff, a real tour de force by a brilliant author in flux. It
encompasses
the best elements of his earlier experimentation, as well as
portending
the power and economy of his future prose works. (Note the a propos
adjectives,
har har)
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:37:05 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs admires..........
Comments:
To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>
On Fri,
30 Aug 1996 09:33:29 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@aol.com> wrote:
> In
a
message
dated 96-08-29 15:35:52 EDT, James Stauffer write:
>
>
<< Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they
> were friends and that at least Ginsberg
admired WB--I'm not sure WB
> admires anybody. >>
>
>
Well, I can tell you one thing --- Burroughs (IMHO) admires Conrad. Also
>
Denton Welch, which is apparent.
In _My
Education_ Burroughs says that Gysin is the only man he ever respected.
Among
the artists he admires one has to include Paul Klee, Samuel Beckett (he
has a
picture of him hanging in his bedroom), Jean Genet, Ernest Hemingway,
Hieronymous
Bosch, Franz Kafka and of course Jack Black.
As for
the talk about defining art or establishing its existence, the most
useful
and instructive book I have ever seen on the matter is _Feeling and
Form_
by Susanne Langer. If you ever believed that there was something that
unified
all the arts, that the aim and processes involved are similar, that
they
are all connected by an underlying thread, then Langer takes that a priori
belief
and makes it concrete in a powerful and convincing manner. She is a
first
rate thinker and gives renewed dignity to the label 'philosopher'.
Stay
Warm,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:14:04 CST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Bob Jordan
<enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The
Miller take
Robert
Peltier wrote, "One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac,
the
beats, and their successors...changed the academy and became part of it
as a
consequence." I would have to agree, based on the fact that so many
of our
colleagues, myself included, now teach beat classes in the academic
setting.
Bob
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:24:36 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Erik Skjeveland
<Erik.Skjeveland@LIT.UIB.NO>
Subject: Bukowski Poems on CD called
"HOSTAGE"
Comments:
To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@SEARN.SUNET.SE>
In-Reply-To:
<00093BA9.fc@ridley.on.ca>
More on
Buk's CD "HOSTAGE" which I've been listening to
lately.
This is a great reading, his spontainious rejoinders
with
the audience being almost better than his poems (ex: ok
you
guys, your 6 dollars are shrinking up like a dead dick out
of
Norway, under a sheet of snow...these are extras like a
little
saliva on the edge of a cunt...).
The
selection of poems read is great, and most of them in the
humorous
vein. Problem is I can't seem to locate most of them
in Buk's
Black Sparrow books. A few are from in "Dangling in
the
Tournefortia". But most are as far as I can see from other
sources.
Can any
of you help me locate these poems? Buk does mention
that
some of them were accepted by the New York Quarterly.
Makes
you wonder how many gems are out there still
uncollected.
Gives us something to look forward to. Well
here's
the list of poems on the CD, as far as I've been able
to
trancribe:
- 73
dollar horse
- Jam
(indecent exposure on the freeway...)
- What
have I seen? (Catullus at the race track...)
-
Trouble (photographing a naked mannequin...)
-
Competition (farting is a lot like fucking...)
- The
secret of my endurance (from Dangling)
- On
the hustle (from Dangling)...
- I am
a reasonable man (from Dangling)
-
Eating the father (planecrash & cannibalism...)
- The 9
horse (beershit and dirty money...)
- I
don't need a Cleopatra (in the backyard in his boxer
shorts...)
-
Hemingway (photograph of Hemingway fat, drunk, and in
bed...)
- Fan
letter
- The
drunk with the little legs
- Tour
- The
recess bells of school
- A
poetry reading (from Dangling)
Can
anyone give me some clues on these?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
the
longer I live the more I realize
that I
knew exactly what I was doing
when I
didn't seem to be doing
anything
but
watching a wet fly on the
bar
nuzzling
a pool of
spilled
beer.
-Charles
Bukowski: "Betting on the Muse"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Erik.Skjeveland@lit.uib.no
University
of Bergen, Norway
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:24:36 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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From: "John W. Hasbrouck"
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Kerouac's October]
X-Mozilla-Status:
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Message-ID:
<3226BB01.3998@tezcat.com>
Date:
Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:57:21 +0000
From:
"John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@tezcat.com>
X-Mailer:
Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
MIME-Version:
1.0
To: Ted
Harms <tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject:
Re: Kerouac's October
References:
<Pine.OSF.3.91.960830083928.12919A-100000@library.uwaterloo.ca>
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Ted
Harms wrote:
>
> If
you got the time, I'd be very interested in seeing your chronological
>
list. Or if you've pulled it from some
other source (A. Charters?), just
>
point me to it.
>
Ted,
The
only list I'm using is a chronological chart I devised of published
correspondence
between Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs and Cassady (I also
occasionally
include relevant letters to or from such people as Kerouac's
family,
John Clellon Holmes, Carl Solomon, Malcolm Cowley, etc.) I basically
include
anything I want, but since there's so much material to pursue by
these
(my favorite) four Beat writers, there's no reason to go to far afield.
Carolyn
Cassady's memoir "Off the Road" has been invaluable.
The
scheme behind this reading project is that I'm reading the
correspondence,
memiors, novels, poems, every bio I can get my hands on, and
essays,
all concurrently and choronologically. That is, year by year, month
by
month, week by week, day by day, and sometimes hour by hour. Sometimes two
letters
are dated the same day, and I have the fun of trying to figure out
which
one was written earlier in the day. Example: A while back I came across
two
letters written on the same day in 1949 from different coasts by Kerouac
and
Cassady respectively. In the Kerouac letter he mentions that he's going
to a
party that evening at John Clellon Holmes' pad in New York. In the "The
Beat
Vision", (Knight, ed.), there were excerpts from Holmes' journals in
which
he describes that party on the morning after. The Cassady letter makes
reference
to the time of the letter's composition being late at night. So
there's
my chronology.
For the
novels which cover real events, I make a decision as to whether I
wish to
read them during the time at which they were written, or during the
time
which they cover, or both.
>
Also, who are you including in your 'canon'?
This isn't flame bait but
>
I'm wondering how many people you're including - obviously, Kerouac,
>
Gins, and Burroughs but are you also including Di Palma, Snyder, Welch,
>
Corso, Holmes, et al? (If you are -
man, you've done a lot of reading!)
>
I
include whatever I want in my Beat Canon. I'm using the word "canon"
in the
same
way one might use it when refering to, for instance, the "Jimi Hendrix
Canon"
(or, for that matter, the "Western Canon"). This means that if
someone
wishes
to dispute a choice I've made for inclusion, I have to ARGUE for that
inclusion.
I've not yet gotten into DiPrima, Snyder or Welch yet, because I'm
only up
to November 1952, and none of them are yet on the scene. I may or may
not
pursue them extensively when the time comes, depending on whether their
stuff
grabs me. By 11/52, Allen and Jack had known Corso for about a year,
but
Gregory hadn't published yet, so there's nothing to read.
And yes
I try to read a lot. My Beat reading project is only a fraction of
the
reading I do.
>
Anyways, I know this is probably asking a lot but if you got the time,
>
I'd greatly appreciate it. I think
other people on the list might find
> it
interesting (hopefully it won't bring the 'beat cannon' debate), so if
>
you post it on the list, no need to reply directly to me.
Canonicity
debates have only limited interest for me.
Thanks
for your interest,
John
Hasbrouck
Chicago
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:23:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>
Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] Neil
on the make
Comments:
To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>
On Fri,
30 Aug 1996 10:13:42 -0400 Robert Peltier
<rpeltier@mail.cc.trincoll.edu>
wrote:
>
And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my
>
introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is
>
whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),
> I
teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,
>
Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of
>
aesthetics.
What,
no Burroughs? ;-) And how is comparing aesthetics 'false'? I'd really
like to
see that fleshed out. To claim that studying an author's aesthetics is
spurious
seems to me to be a grievous error. All the aspects of an artist's
work
stem from their reasons and impulse to make art. By examining those
reasons
I find I can develop a fuller understanding of the motivating forces
and
vital import that drives their work. What about Jean Genet, who will step
outside
of the narrative of his work and make bold aesthetic statements? His
aesthetics
are naked and work as a powerful force from _within_ his books.
There
are some pretty straightforward self-reflexive parts in _A Portrait of
the
Artist_ if I remember correctly, what about those passages?
>
One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac, the beats, and their
>
successors, "running COUNTER to academe," changed the academy and
became
>
part of it as a consequence. I'm not
quite ready to make that argument yet,
>
but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on that subject.
In this
vein it would be fruitful to read the introduction to Morgan's Literary
Outlaw
which talks about Burroughs' induction to The American Academy of Arts
and
Letters. Also look at Genet and his pardon. The French are a lot weirder
when it
comes to co-opting those that weigh the heaviest criticism against
them.
Genet sets himself up as an outsider in his work and the government
pardoned
him because he was an artist. Interesting stuff.
Have a
fun Labour Day everyone! Going up to the cottage for some reading,
relaxation,
and contemplation...
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:18:38 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The
Miller take
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:37 -0400
from <KenWNC@AOL.COM>
In a
real sense, the Beat movement grew out of Columbia University. I'm not su
re that
I'd agree that it was a purpose of the movement to run counter to acade
me. Rather, the Academy at the time rejected,
for the most part, the values of
writers like Ginsberg and Kerouac. English departments then were still under
the
sway of the New Criticism. They tended
to ignore
topics
like mysticism and spirituality, something that inter
ested
Kerouac and Ginsberg. The question of
the Beat role in the canon is an i
nteresting
one. When I was writing my master's
thesis on Kerouac in 1972, a Co
lumbia
professor who was sympathetic to his work said: "Why do you want to tha
t
for? Making him part of the canon will
be the quickest way to kill him. Nob
ody
will read him anymore."
Obviously, I disagreed. I think
the Beat Movemen
t will
have an important place in American literary history and I'm glad that s
o many Beat
writers have accepted positions in colleges and universities. They
've
even established their own center of learning -- the Naropa Institute.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:33:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs admires..........
Add to
the list:
John
Giorno
Keith
Haring
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:24:47 CST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Bob Jordan
<enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Railroad Earth
Thanks,
I'll look for it. Bob Jordan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:31:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Scott Greenberg
<SGreenb622@AOL.COM>
Subject: Railroad Earth
Is
Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" the same as the Lonesome
Traveler
piece Ann Charters excerpted as "The Railroad Earth" in The Portable
Jack
Kerouac? If so, why the disparity in the titles? Is the full piece in
Lonesome
Traveler?
SRG
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:54:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Nick Weir-Williams
<nweir-w@NWU.EDU>
Subject: New Biography
Viking (Penguin) are announcing in their Fall
list a bio of JK 'Jack
Keroucac:
Angelheaded Hipster" by Steve Turner. Anyone know anything about
this?
And do we actually need another biography? What is your favorite bio
anyhow?
I rather prefer Jack's Book to the actual biographies...
Nick
W-W
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:43:30 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Railroad Earth
At
01:31 PM 8/30/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Is
Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" the same as the Lonesome
>Traveler
piece Ann Charters excerpted as "The Railroad Earth" in The Portable
>Jack
Kerouac? If so, why the disparity in the titles? Is the full piece in
>Lonesome
Traveler?
>
>SRG
Yes. I haven't read the Portable Beat Reader but
I would assume it is the
entire
piece not just an excerpt, but I couldn't say for sure.
Kerouac's
title is October in the Railroad Earth.
The railroad earth is the
same
thing. Editors like to shorten things I
guess.
Lonesome
Traveller has the full piece, yes.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:43:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@XX.ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Railroad Earth
In-Reply-To: <009A79CB.44238B5F.7@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>
On Fri,
30 Aug 1996, Bob Jordan wrote:
> I
recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a world!)
> ON
disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on the same.
>
Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might obtain a
>
copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan
>
That
piece published in Playboy is available in
_The_Good_Blonde_&_Other_Stories_.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)266-7067 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:57:36 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP
OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs admires..........
...and
cats.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:51:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@XX.ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Railroad Earth
In-Reply-To: <199608301743.KAA10183@hsc.usc.edu>
On Fri,
30 Aug 1996, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>Jack Kerouac? If so, why the disparity in the titles? Is the full piece in
>
>Lonesome Traveler?
>
>
Kerouac's title is October in the Railroad Earth. The railroad earth is the
>
same thing. Editors like to shorten
things I guess.
>
>
Lonesome Traveller has the full piece, yes.
>
The
Lonesome Traveller piece is entitled The Railroad Earth. There it
first
appeared. The title on the Box Set is
October in the Railroad
Earth. Most of the titles on that set are taken
from the text rather
than
the original pieces.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)266-7067 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:20:08 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Denton Welch
Sorry I
missed the apparent admiration of Mr. Welch, Mr. Miller.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:26:27 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The
Miller take
>
>
And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my
>
introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is
>
whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),
> I
teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,
>
Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of
>
aesthetics.
No
women, no people of coulor, and still no "false comparisons of
aesthetics? If we could all only be so cool.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:12:32 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: question
I was a
member of this group in may-june but went on a summerlong
vacation
so did not have access to internet, e-mail, etc. I have two
requests:
1.
somebody, toward the end of June when if I can remember that far back
the
major issue of discussion was zen and buddhism, mentioned that a
magazine
was to have a major article on the Beats, I believe the person
in
charge of it mentioned that it was a newyork-based paper - I have
glanced
in vain - any body know what mag it was, I believe the issue was
to be
August
2. If
anything important went on (i.e. events, publications, or even just
interesting
disscusions on this list) I would appreciate any update
Thanx
Eric
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:38:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
From: Robert Peltier <robert.peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Boneheads
>>
>>
And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years. In my
>>
introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is
>>
whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),
>>
I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,
>>
Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of
>>
aesthetics.
>
>No
women, no people of coulor, and still no "false comparisons of
>aesthetics? If we could all only be so cool.
Apparently
you missed the "etc." I was
making comparisons with the beats
and the
old canon. I also include, _among
others_, Wharton, Woolfe, Paley,
Head,
Baldwin, Flannery O'Connor, Langston Hughes, Mukerjee, and so forth.
But
thanks for jumping without thinking, just like a good little fascist.
You've
memorized the code words, but I'll bet in your heart of hearts
you're
a dittohead.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:42:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "M.Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Bukowski Honor In Movie Ending (Not Beat
related)
Hmm,
Just
finished watching the movie "The Crossing Guard" by Sean Penn;
with
Jack Nicholson, Angelica Houston and Robbie Robertson
(of The
Band). During the closing pan-out there
are the words:
"For my friend,
Henry Charles Bukowski, Jr.
I miss you,
S.P."
Just
thought it might be of interest to someone.
Mike