=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 20:38:35 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

 

WE

> DON'T HAVE SHAKESPEARE'S ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS TO GO BACK AND CHECK WITH.

>         (No, I'm not suggesting John Sampas sold those off too.)

>         Best, Gerry Nicosia

 

Now that is funny .... :)

 

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 18:46:13 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The korror of hen foing gurthur

 

Zach,

 

I fail to see how the buccolic Wisconsin bashes you describe (which

sound great to me) are fundamentally different than the Human Be-In.

 

Everything is the same.  Everything is different.

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 18:59:18 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: The 100 Year Test

 

Jerry,

 

We agree on alot.  If the will is forged--let Nicosia have it.  But if

it isn't, then John Sampas can do anything he wants with it--burn it if

that's his thing.  The courts will decide and no Beat-L vote will make

any damn difference.

 

As I said before, I would prefer that the stuff is available.  But

despite having spent a long time in the academy studying lit crit, I am

not convinced that the world will be a whole lot poorer without a lot of

textual criticsm resulting from scholarly perusal of these things.  The

primary works are what are important, and they are there.  I never knew

Jan, but do you really think that all that mattered to her was seeing

that the archive was preserved?  For her this had to be about paternity,

about her very justified anger about the way Jack and his family had

treated her.  This is not a scholarly war.  It is a battle for blood and

guts.  I just don't see Gerry and the ghost of Jan standing tall only

for academic rights to inquire into the Kerouac ouvre.  There is a lot

more to it than that and that is why it gets so damn nasty on both

sides.  100 years from now the work will be there.  The scholarship will

be boring 100 year old stuff.  People will rediscover the work based on

the principle texts.  Do you think alot about what happened to Keat's

overcoat (if there was one)?  Would it matter if some actor in London

had bought it rather than it being in the British Museum?

 

> Jan Kerouac did go away.  Gerry Nicosia has not.

>

> It is the Collection that is important.  Everything else is a side issue.

>

> Jerry Cimino

> Fog City

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 19:27:18 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Overview, Part One

 

Julie,

 

Thanks much for this note of sanity.  I also appreciated Jeffery

Weinberg's reasoned, balanced view.  I think that most Beat-L members

have been very patient with this.  We realize it is important.  We also

know that the courts are going to solve it and we are not.

 

I am ready to cast my one vote to ask these guys to all just take their

self serving posts elsewhere. Go outside the bar and slug it out. Let's

talk about Jack Kerouac, or Jack's texts.  All these guys might have

something to add when they get trough libelling each other.

 

J Stauffer (I might have a Master's Degree too, watch out!)

 

Julie Hulvey wrote:. .

 

 

> So I should worry about these poor Kerouac scholars who are either scratching

> each others eyes out or stabbing each other in the back,  or else busy

> changing our little corner of cyberspace into a  weeks-long info-mercial ?

>

> It is to laugh!

>

> Julie (no scholar - don't bother checking)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 19:34:21 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Attila the Hun

 

Hey, Attila!   May 14, 1997

 

        What, did Anstee and Chaput wear their fists out punching at me?

Time for guy number three to step up?  (Maher ain't been doin' too bad

either with his "sophomoric criticism.")

        Didn't you guys ever read the rules of fair fightin'?  One against

one, and at least a week to recuperate.  That was the rule in my old

neighborhood.

        Nick the Greek

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 21:34:32 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Chaput is Kaput!

 

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >

> >

> Dave,          May 14, 1997

>

>         What I meant is this.  Stephen Hawking is arguing with another

> astrophysicist.  The other astrophysicist suddenly says, "The moon is made of

 green cheese."  The other astrophysicist is either marked as loony or forever

 loses his credibility in the astrophysics community.

>         However, suppose Hawking is talking with Chaput, and Chaput says, "The

 moon is made of green cheese."

>         Chaput doesn't lose his professional credibility, because he has none

 in astrophysics.

 

it seems that Hawking is fairly good at recognizing different types of

rhetorical explanations are necessary for varying audiences.  my hunch

is that he could provide a fairly devestating yet kind explanation for

why the phrase "the moon is made of Green Cheese" is meaningless

scientifically even though it might have meaning in other contexts.

 

>         My point is that if Ann Charters were on the Beat List saying it

 doesn't matter that Kerouac's archive is being split up, xeroxes are just as

 good, etc., she'd lose all professional credibility.  She doesn't dare do that,

 and that's why she hasn't appeared here (even though she works for Sampas).

 

There you go again.  The fact that she would not be able to make

academically silly arguments does not necessarily provide the basis for

why Ms. Charters does not choose to participate in this listserv.

Moreover, the fact that she "works" for Sampas does not necessarily

determine her choices concerning which listservs she participates in (or

for what she has for breakfast for that matter).  once again, you're

jumping from point A to point Q in a conspiratorial mode.  Frankly, i

don't understand WHY you feel a need to incorporate these conspiratorial

arguments into your discourse.  it seems that your arguments are far

more informative and persuasive if such methods could be omitted.  it

doesn't take a Stephen Hawking to recognize unsupported conspiracy

charges.

 

 

>         Chaput says he "sees Sampas around."  Every argument he's brought

 against me in the past two weeks has already been used either by Sampas

 himself, his lawyers, or Ann Charters over the past three years.  I feel like

 I'm replaying an old, old chess game with him.  Now how does Chaput know all

 this stuff?  The only people who remember the moves of the game that exactly

 are the ones who played it.

 

it isn't a chess game.  it is a different conversation b/c of who we the

audience are (folks who've not been privvy to previous wrestling

bouts).   i don't understand, again, the frustration at facing perennial

questions concerning your position.

 

>         You may consider that circumstantial evidence, but people have been

 sent to the gallows on circumstantial evidence, if it's strong enough.

 

i doubt that you're in your wildest fantasies wishing the gallows for

Sampas.  i want to believe that you are interested rather in preserving

Kerouac archives as you've said.  the consistent "tossing in" of these

types of phrases makes it much easier for folks to question

movitations.

circumstantial evidence of conspiracy is a very very very hard

argumentative road to traverse.

 

i don't think, and perhaps i'm missing something here, that the

conspiratorial tones and suggestions in many of your messages are at all

intrinsic to your support of retaining Kerouac's arvhives at the NYPL or

elsewhere.  what do these conspiratorial asides do for your position but

alienate readers?

 

i agree with you by the way, that humans are as a rule atrocious

photocopiers.  don't know why.

 

david rhaesa

 

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 23:13:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Attila the Hun

 

At 07:34 PM 5/14/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Hey, Attila!   May 14, 1997

>

>        What, did Anstee and Chaput wear their fists out punching at me?

>Time for guy number three to step up?  (Maher ain't been doin' too bad

>either with his "sophomoric criticism.")

-I don't understand why you think you are untouchable. Your textual analysis

in the book is not "sophomoric". But if it was, that is an issue that would

be taken up by scholars who would come up with a thesis and discourse on why

it would be described as such. Am I sophmoric because I am a first year

Graduate student in American Studies with a concentration in the American

Renaissance of the nineteenth century? I then could not ever take issue with

your work should I find a reason to without fear of violent reprisal? Is

that not the nature of scholarship? Surely your work on Vietnam vets had

improved upon someone else's work that could not be researched at the time

of your studies. I have one published thesis in a scholarly journal that I

am proud of but if one was to take issue with it I wouldn't be offended. I

would be interested though in what they had to say. Geez...Paul MAHER JR.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 23:28:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: something completely different .... -Reply

 

In a message dated 97-05-14 21:02:28 EDT, you write:

 

<< an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

 >idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

 >for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

 >experience, >>

 

At the age of 15 I heard my mother start reading out loud and translating The

Ticket That Exploded to her French lover, Claude Pelieu.  I also heard her

translating Reality Sandwiches.  By the time I was 16 I had met AG, LF, Bob

Kaufman, and all the Beats living in SF including Charles Plymell. I can't

say that it changed my life because it was the way my life was.

I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

of the Beats into French.  Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

famous in France than in America.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 22:40:53 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: something completely different .... -Reply

 

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-05-14 21:02:28 EDT, you write:

>

> << an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

>  >idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

>  >for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

>  >experience, >>

>

> At the age of 15 I heard my mother start reading out loud and translating The

> Ticket That Exploded to her French lover, Claude Pelieu.  I also heard her

> translating Reality Sandwiches.  By the time I was 16 I had met AG, LF, Bob

> Kaufman, and all the Beats living in SF including Charles Plymell. I can't

> say that it changed my life because it was the way my life was.

> I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

> of the Beats into French.  Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

> famous in France than in America.

> Pam Plymell

 

as usual the Cherry Valley connection provides wonderful insights.

 

i recall a student at Stuyvesant who told me her introduction to

literature that mattered to her was Kafka.  she was so far ahead of me

and my kansas-to kill a mockinbird education.  she went on to

comparative lit at Stanford.  used to talk long distance about

shakespeare papers over the phone.  she seems to have handled it

reasonably well.  writes regularly for the New Republic.  this week's

piece on the Philadelphia volunteer talkathon was priceless in my

opinion.

 

my experience with working with high school students in the summers over

the years at kansas, baylor, dartmouth, michigan, iowa, illinois state,

fort hays state (and some i've probably lost to the memory banks) is

that they are way under-rated in their ability to "handle" materials.

 

david rhaesa

 

is charles still on-the-road?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 22:47:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: something completely different .... -Reply

 

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

>...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

>...

amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo)  shouldn't be

forced but if the palate is ready then  i would think this literature,

which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

danger.  As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

protection they need.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 00:40:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject:      Re: something completely different .... -Reply

In-Reply-To:  <337A873C.37D1@sunflower.com>

 

I wholeheartedly agree with Patricia.  I'm a college senior, so high

school wasn't that long ago, and I really resent that the

content of many conservative high school English classes leads one to

believe that nothing worthwhile was written after the Catcher in the Rye.

While I think that it is important for students to read Dostoevsky and

Kafka and Hemingway and the classics, it is equally important to introduce

them to more modern/post-modern/whatever authors who are quite likely

writing in a manner that is more directly applicable to their lives.  I

think it would be great if a high school included Coupland's Generation X

in it's curriculum (although I do think it's one of the worst books ever

written); the implications of it's publication affect highschoolers in a

way that War and Peace cannot.  Part of the problem with high school (and

i speak only from my experience and that of friends, I'm sure not all

schools are like this) is that it does not change with technological or

intellectual progress.  High school students today are, to a large extent,

learning the same thing their parents learned forty years ago and in the

same manner they learned it.  At least no one is ducking and covering

anymore...The point of all of this long winded babbling (long day--sorry)

is that hell yes the beats should be taught in school, if for no other

reason than students will read it.  I think the attention of the average

student, staring out the window, bored to tears by emily Dickinson's

prattling, might be piqued by someone like Allen Ginsberg (or perhaps by

Gregory Corso and his ode to Dickinson!)  Isn't the point to educate, to

encourage students to read and learn and expand their horizons?  Why do

schools manipulate this to mean educate a little, encourage students to

read only certain books and learn only certain things, expand their

horizons to a certain, approved level?  I love patricia's comment that

"protection from thought and understanong is not a protection they

need"--it should be every teachers creed!!

 

Tracy

 

 

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> >...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> >...

> amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

> hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

> ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo)  shouldn't be

> forced but if the palate is ready then  i would think this literature,

> which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

> allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

> danger.  As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

> generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

> incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

> protection they need.

> p

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 21:42:15 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: something completely different .... -Reply

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> >...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> >...

> amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

> hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

> ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo)  shouldn't be

> forced but if the palate is ready then  i would think this literature,

> which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

> allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

> danger.  As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

> generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

> incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

> protection they need.

> p

 

Pam, Patricia, David,

 

You're all right.  Bright high school kids are ready for alot and they

should have a chance at it.  I think of all the Beats, JK would be

wonderfully approachable for them, and there is stuff that shouldn't

horrify the school boards.  "October in Railroad Earth," unless I am

forgetting something is a good example.  If they are ready to read any

serious fiction they are certainly ready to read Jack, and if I remember

myself at all, that was fairly young.

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 21:53:01 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Pearson <digress@ELLENSBURG.COM>

Subject:      lightly press on closed eyelids - see colors.

 

=

>> who else would have the gall & guts to drive a 1949

>>international harvester acid trip from one side of the country to the

 

 monitor doesn't track all us to our source

 or we'll have to initiate them see below.

In our day, we

paranoid and relaxed

 because

1)  Vietnam war,

 &)  job-market going post-industrial and ?) ecology shudders

                We awoke

 the seriousness of life overwhelmed

        personal issues ..now  awash in

                distractions?

Just lightly press on closed eyelids and see colors.

 

Mike

www.ellensburg.com/~digress

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 14 May 1997 22:07:14 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Triumph of the Will

 

> >>

> >>John Mitchell, responding to Rinaldo

 

> >Leni Riefenstahl is filming yr performance mates....

>

> rinaldo--isn't the title something like Triumph of the Quills (Swills?

> Pills?  Last Wills and Testaments?  //John M.

 

Will you will or will you won't you

be my baby?

 

We don't need no stinking Wills.

 

If Hitler's Leni is no longer available we might enlist Sergio Leone,  I

see a redo of the opening of Once Upon A Time in the West--ten minutes

of a lone cowboy waiting in an empty trail station for the Sampas gang

to show up.

 

Thanks John for a great laugh.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 00:51:30 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      something completely different

 

Bravo Pam, Pat, James & all,

 

To deny a kid access to literature is criminal. When I was a kid

the public library was a nightmare that discouraged kids who were

curious. When they sent me to the school shrink-and later, to still-

another shrink for reading Camus at the age of 14; I knew that my

life was over in our little town. I ran away at 15, and never looked

back. I lived in dollar-a-night-flops in downtown Mpls. I recieved

the best education that money could buy, at Oudal's Old & Rare Book

Shop. The owner, Justin, was a kindhearted man who'd let me take books

home to read and return. At the time, I was very much into the French

writers. I started reading the books from A to Z/or from Apollinaire

to Zola. My very first book that I wrote: TRIP, was published in France.

That was over twenty years ago. After having some bad run-in

situations with the local schools, I now teach my boys at home. They

are tested each year through a program developed by Princton University,

and I am happy to report that they finish in the top 90%

nationally. Right now, we are studying the Greeks. The boys are 12 and

13 yrs. old.

 

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 06:09:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         KSB <ksbedit@SHORE.NET>

Subject:      Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

 

At 09:42 PM 5/14/97 -0700, James Stauffer wrote:

 

>You're all right.  Bright high school kids are ready for alot and they

>should have a chance at it.  I think of all the Beats, JK would be

>wonderfully approachable for them, and there is stuff that shouldn't

>horrify the school boards.  "October in Railroad Earth," unless I am

>forgetting something is a good example.  If they are ready to read any

>serious fiction they are certainly ready to read Jack, and if I remember

>myself at all, that was fairly young.

 

 

Just to pipe in here....

I am an editor of textbooks of English as a Second/Foreign Language and one

of the first series that I worked on for Addison Wesley was one entitled

"New Horizons in English" and in Level 6 of that series we used an excerpt

of "October in Railroad Earth."

 

This particular series sold millions and millions of copies worldwide.  So,

just think....there's a good possiblity that someone down in Sao Paolo or

over in Taiwan learned English by reading Kerouac!  Who'd a thunk it, eh?

 

Best,

Kathleen

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 12:35:34 GMT

Reply-To:     i12bent@sprog.auc.dk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@SPROG.AUC.DK>

Subject:      Solomon's Mishaps

 

Dear members of BEAT-L,

 

Just when you thought it was going to be another dreary day on the

Beat-Litigation list, here is a posting with reference to literary works

as literary works, and not objects to be fought over...

 

I haven't seen much talk about Carl Solomon on the list, so maybe people

don't consider him much of a beat. Or maybe people haven't read much of his

work. I'm posting some of his pieces from More Mishaps (City Lights, 1968)

that concern themselves with the Beat Generation, and with reading. Hope

you enjoy them and that they may spark some debate:

 

PEOPLE OF THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES

 

Wild, crazy bouncing around. "Dig everything", says Kerouac. They are

reading "The Book of Changes." What changes can possibly occur after those

I have already known, I wonder. William Carlos Williams' letter letter

comes to PSH, "Life is not over in a day." This seems bullshit to me. My

life is over. Much squawking, much yawking. Apparently it's not over.

Doctors, doctors, patients, patients. Letters from poets, writing to poets.

Confused conglomerations of visitors from various phases of my life.

Confused rehabilitation courses, this, that, reading at the Metro, meeting

B.H. He  is rehabilitated. He helped me when I escaped. World collapsing a

dozen times over and being rebuilt. Babies born, deaths in the family.

"Philosophy of a Lunatic-Wit, Wisdom, And Folly" bought at the Gotham Book

Mart. For three dollars or so and change. Take it seriously and you have

entrance to the bliss and sorrow of the mentally ill. Don't go there any

more. No more dangerous esoterica. This reading thing can be extremely

bad. Read a story in a newspaper recently about a boy in the west who

bought and read Camus' "L'Etranger," then shot somebody. Hadn't Leopold and

Loeb been reading Nitszche? How many crimes have been indirectly caused by

writers unknown to the reader? Wasn't Oswald reading "The Militant"? Wasn't

the man arrested for attempting to blow up the Russian Embassy probably a

reader of some right-wing paper? The pen is mightier than the sword. More

often than not it directs the sword. Writing entails grave responsibilities.

Read "The Times" and avoid folly. Read "The Post" and meet a nice, Jewish

girl looking for a husband. Read "The News" and go out to the ball-park or

go fishing. Read "The Daily Worker" and go underground. Read the "Enquirer"

for laughs. Read the "East Village Other" and be hip and psychedelic. Read

Braille and speak hesitantly but correctly. Read "War and Peace" and enter

another era. Read the "Geographic" and bask under a tropical sun. Read

Proust when you are in jail and have plenty of time. What are you reading

lately?  This question probes exactly into one's present frame of mind. The

book makes the mood and the mood makes the book. Libraries win or lose

elections. Does it help the identity problem to realize that the same man

may read "Candy" one week and the Bible the next, and may be the one type

of reader the one week and the other the next. What about "My Secret Life"

by Mao-Tze Tung?

 

REPORT FROM THE BRONX

 

[...]

 

Obscenity has become the only mode of expression pretty nearly. This is not

freedom of speech, it is the triumph of subnormality over sex. What can we

expect from social forces? Almost anything. A writer commits suicide almost

every day. Burroughs is always leaving for London, Ginsberg is always in

California, Kerouac is always in Florida. The literari are always on the

move and it is useless to attempt to keep up with them. The only thing to

do seems to be to keep gazing sidelong at TV. The TV is more effective than

the analyst. I have tried both, and have concluded that what we want is

FACTS. Not subjective fantasy or interpersonal gibberish, but the cold hard

objective facts that exist apart from psychotic aberration.

 

CONFUSED, GUTTERAL MUMBLING OF A MAN WHO HAS READ TOO MUCH

 

             Kafka,

             Strindberg,

             Jack London,

             Gogol,

             Mike Gold,

             Edward Everett Hale,

             Heywood Broun,

             Westbrook Pegler,

             Jacques Vache,

             Henry Miller,

             Stalin,

             Mao-Tze Tung,

             Hitler,

             Mussolini,

             William Buckley,

             Lawrence Ferlinghetti,

             These and many,many more,

 

    And what have I gained in the way of everlasting wisdom?

    Nothing.

    Literature has nothing more to offer one than the many blank faces one

meets on the subway..... it is of course only a way of klling time or a

subject for conversation. Is this giving away the game?

    But cannot this be said about anything......baseball just so many

batted balls? Where is what I am looking for? And is there anything I am

looking for?

    Let us say: I read to keep my hands occupied......to keep from

masturbating.I am possessed of language and have nothing to say.

    Why not collect postage stamps, dirty jokes, or puns?

    Drinking endless cups of coffee or entering a pie-eating contest makes

about as much sense.

    I am somewhat disappointed in Ferlinghetti. The true Dada would have

been to have gone across Russia on horseback.

 

BON MOT

 

    If you lose contact with the Zeitgeist, never fear. You may still have

contact with the poltergeist.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The last one is probably my favourite. But generally I find the wit

displayed here appealing, if somewhat desperate. The rambling attempts of a

man trying to come to terms with the fact that the world perceives him as a

lunatic, whereas he perceives the world as lunatic. I'm interested in the

slippery valences of writing and writers in Solomon's texts. It's as if he

is personally offended by the fact that writers put pen on page, and yet do

not communicate anything of wisdom and worth. Is this just an early

statement of a well-knowm postmodern symptom, or a reflection of Solomon's

own low self-esteem - or IS he so out of contact with the sixties polter-

sorry Zeitgeist as he makes out to be..?

 

Regards,

 

bs

 

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

http://www.hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 07:28:07 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: something completely different .... -Reply

 

KSB wrote:

>

> At 09:42 PM 5/14/97 -0700, James Stauffer wrote:

>

> >You're all right.  Bright high school kids are ready for alot and they

> >should have a chance at it.  I think of all the Beats, JK would be

> >wonderfully approachable for them, and there is stuff that shouldn't

> >horrify the school boards.  "October in Railroad Earth," unless I am

> >forgetting something is a good example.  If they are ready to read any

> >serious fiction they are certainly ready to read Jack, and if I remember

> >myself at all, that was fairly young.

>

> Just to pipe in here....

> I am an editor of textbooks of English as a Second/Foreign Language and one

> of the first series that I worked on for Addison Wesley was one entitled

> "New Horizons in English" and in Level 6 of that series we used an excerpt

> of "October in Railroad Earth."

>

> This particular series sold millions and millions of copies worldwide.  So,

> just think....there's a good possiblity that someone down in Sao Paolo or

> over in Taiwan learned English by reading Kerouac!  Who'd a thunk it, eh?

>

> Best,

> Kathleen

 

What kind of teaching materials were provided concerning Kerouac and

Railroad earth to assist in instruction?  That may not be something

handy.  just a sense of the kinds of things would be helpful.  it seems

one of the troubles with encouraging new literature sources is that

teachers who aren't familiar and don't have available background

material aren't comfortable using them.

 

What is the name of the Reader?  Perhaps it is one that could be

encouraged to local schools ....  Anything more on this might be useful.

 

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 07:51:58 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Something completely different #2

 

i enjoyed reading the varied posts from varied voices on the lists.  it

seems that the first thread (something #1) is partially devoted to

whether students can handle the material, whether high schools should be

burned and whatnot.  this seems a relevant area to question in the

process of determining whether to work for "incorporation" (rather than

pushing) beat litearture into the high school curriculum.

 

so far, the suggestions of "railroad earth" and "on the road" have been

mentioned.  there are some who feel that other materials might not make

it by the school boards.  that is probably a concern.  it is more likely

that one would be working towards the textbook editors at first.

 

so I'm asking a second kind of question in "something completely

different #2".   Assuming, that we did want to put forth some effort in

this direction, what besides "Railroad Earth" would be recommended

suggestions to encourage being excerpted into Survey Type Readers of

American Literature to provide a "taste" of this rich material.

 

i seem to agree that secondary literature courses beyond the initial

survey should be highly optional.  Besides ON ROUTE, what beat materials

seem possible to get on optional readings lists.  This question probably

involves considering community standards a bit more.  Is Kerouac the

only possible introduction the students could get their hands on in the

classroom?  It seems that Burroughs' material unless excerpted into a

Burroughs' reader for this purpose would be nearly impossible to get

past the moral guard.  i'd be interested in others opinions on what the

best types in each of these categories might be.

 

i appreciate y'alls response.  this is not an attempt to jump off the

bridge at Big Sur concerning the "Something #1" thread.  I'll take some

time over the next day and begin to think more actively about all the

comments and suggestions made and continue to post to that thread as

well.  i am only attempting to provide two different threads of focus on

this matter.

 

david rhaesa

salina kansas

 

not sure if i'm persona non-grata at the high school anymore or not.

told the principal he was running a prison and not a school (a result of

a bit of mania and having read too much Ivan Illich on education; and

because it was TRUE).  i think i'm accepted in certain parts of the

building to do some local investigation.

 

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 14:58:05 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: The korror of hen foing gurthur

 

>Zach,

>

>I fail to see how the buccolic Wisconsin bashes you describe (which

>sound great to me) are fundamentally different than the Human Be-In.

>

>Everything is the same.  Everything is different.

>

>J Stauffer

>

>

in italy the lotto game is a must!

 

BARI   57 27 05 30 42

CAGLIARI   52 19 18 85 73

FIRENZE   52 23 90 51 73

GENOVA   85 43 71 48 22

MILANO   16 55 57 10 12

NAPOLI   80 06 71 78 26

PALERMO   53 19 87 44 55

ROMA   31 51 54 81 08

TORINO   46 86 37 18 02

VENEZIA   79 86 49 73 88

 

yrs beet

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 15 May 1997 08:08:04 -0500

Reply-To:     race@midusa.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Solomon's Mishaps

Comments: To: i12bent@sprog.auc.dk

 

B. Sorensen wrote:

>

> Dear members of BEAT-L,

>

> Just when you thought it was going to be another dreary day on the

> Beat-Litigation list, here is a posting with reference to literary works

> as literary works, and not objects to be fought over...

>

> I haven't seen much talk about Carl Solomon on the list, so maybe people

> don't consider him much of a beat. Or maybe people haven't read much of his

> work. I'm posting some of his pieces from More Mishaps (City Lights, 1968)

> that concern themselves with the Beat Generation, and with reading. Hope

> you enjoy them and that they may spark some debate:

>

> PEOPLE OF THE FIFTIES AND SIXTIES

>

> Wild, crazy bouncing around. "Dig everything", says Kerouac. They are

> reading "The Book of Changes." What changes can possibly occur after those

> I have already known, I wonder. William Carlos Williams' letter letter

> comes to PSH, "Life is not over in a day." This seems bullshit to me. My

> life is over. Much squawking, much yawking. Apparently it's not over.

> Doctors, doctors, patients, patients. Letters from poets, writing to poets.

> Confused conglomerations of visitors from various phases of my life.

> Confused rehabilitation courses, this, that, reading at the Metro, meeting

> B.H. He  is rehabilitated. He helped me when I escaped. World collapsing a

> dozen times over and being rebuilt. Babies born, deaths in the family.

> "Philosophy of a Lunatic-Wit, Wisdom, And Folly" bought at the Gotham Book

> Mart. For three dollars or so and change. Take it seriously and you have

> entrance to the bliss and sorrow of the mentally ill. Don't go there any

> more. No more dangerous esoterica. This reading thing can be extremely

> bad. Read a story in a newspaper recently about a boy in the west who

> bought and read Camus' "L'Etranger," then shot somebody. Hadn't Leopold and

> Loeb been reading Nitszche? How many crimes have been indirectly caused by

> writers unknown to the reader? Wasn't Oswald reading "The Militant"? Wasn't

> the man arrested for attempting to blow up the Russian Embassy probably a

> reader of some right-wing paper? The pen is mightier than the sword. More

> often than not it directs the sword. Writing entails grave responsibilities.

> Read "The Times" and avoid folly. Read "The Post" and meet a nice, Jewish

> girl looking for a husband. Read "The News" and go out to the ball-park or

> go fishing. Read "The Daily Worker" and go underground. Read the "Enquirer"

> for laughs. Read the "East Village Other" and be hip and psychedelic. Read

> Braille and speak hesitantly but correctly. Read "War and Peace" and enter

> another era. Read the "Geographic" and bask under a tropical sun. Read

> Proust when you are in jail and have plenty of time. What are you reading

> lately?  This question probes exactly into one's present frame of mind. The

> book makes the mood and the mood makes the book. Libraries win or lose

> elections. Does it help the identity problem to realize that the same man

> may read "Candy" one week and the Bible the next, and may be the one type

> of reader the one week and the other the next. What about "My Secret Life"

> by Mao-Tze Tung?

>

> REPORT FROM THE BRONX

>

> [...]

>

> Obscenity has become the only mode of expression pretty nearly. This is not

> freedom of speech, it is the triumph of subnormality over sex. What can we

> expect from social forces? Almost anything. A writer commits suicide almost

> every day. Burroughs is always leaving for London, Ginsberg is always in

> California, Kerouac is always in Florida. The literari are always on the

> move and it is useless to attempt to keep up with them. The only thing to

> do seems to be to keep gazing sidelong at TV. The TV is more effective than

> the analyst. I have tried both, and have concluded that what we want is

> FACTS. Not subjective fantasy or interpersonal gibberish, but the cold hard

> objective facts that exist apart from psychotic aberration.

>

> CONFUSED, GUTTERAL MUMBLING OF A MAN WHO HAS READ TOO MUCH

>

>              Kafka,

>              Strindberg,

>              Jack London,

>              Gogol,

>              Mike Gold,

>              Edward Everett Hale,

>              Heywood Broun,

>              Westbrook Pegler,

>              Jacques Vache,

>              Henry Miller,

>              Stalin,

>              Mao-Tze Tung,

>              Hitler,

>              Mussolini,

>              William Buckley,

>              Lawrence Ferlinghetti,

>              These and many,many more,

>

>     And what have I gained in the way of everlasting wisdom?

>     Nothing.

>     Literature has nothing more to offer one than the many blank faces one

> meets on the subway..... it is of course only a way of klling time or a

> subject for conversation. Is this giving away the game?

>     But cannot this be said about anything......baseball just so many

> batted balls? Where is what I am looking for? And is there anything I am

> looking for?

>     Let us say: I read to keep my hands occupied......to keep from

> masturbating.I am possessed of language and have nothing to say.

>     Why not collect postage stamps, dirty jokes, or puns?

>     Drinking endless cups of coffee or entering a pie-eating contest makes

> about as much sense.

>     I am somewhat disappointed in Ferlinghetti. The true Dada would have

> been to have gone across Russia on horseback.

>

> BON MOT

>

>     If you lose contact with the Zeitgeist, never fear. You may still have

> contact with the poltergeist.

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> The last one is probably my favourite. But generally I find the wit

> displayed here appealing, if somewhat desperate. The rambling attempts of a

> man trying to come to terms with the fact that the world perceives him as a

> lunatic, whereas he perceives the world as lunatic. I'm interested in the

> slippery valences of writing and writers in Solomon's texts. It's as if he

> is personally offended by the fact that writers put pen on page, and yet do

> not communicate anything of wisdom and worth. Is this just an early

> statement of a well-knowm postmodern symptom, or a reflection of Solomon's

> own low self-esteem - or IS he so out of contact with the sixties polter-

> sorry Zeitgeist as he makes out to be..?

>

> Regards,

>

> bs

>

> Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

> Aalborg University, Denmark

> http://www.hum.auc.dk/i12/org/medarb/bent.uk.html

 

i found this very interesting.  seemed to be able to read it any of a

number of ways at one time.  The writer mad b/c he reads and the world

doesn't.  the writer angry b/c he reads and the world doesn't.  the

writer believes the world mad b/c he reads and they don't.  the writer

angry at the world bc he reads and they don't.  and all these readings

can happen at once very easily.  to the point that halfway through a

line it seems pure parody and the next moment it seems serious as hell.

hmm. interesting thoughts.

 

as to the madness.  it reminded me of something my ex-wife gave me that

i'm paraphrasing from long term memory:

"They said I was mad and I sad they were mad and damn them they outvoted

me :)"  -- Ibsen (i think)

 

i got that from a different reading of it the fourth kind (i think it

was fourth, maybe third) in Hesse's essay on the different types of

reading.  my mind left the text and the words pushed MY thinking rather

than an attempt to understand the AUTHOR's thinking.

 

but it is early and not quite done with a first cup of coffee or

anything so this all may come along as so much gibberish.  if it gets

too gibberishstic please remind me to take my medications... :)

 

david rhaesa

 



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