beat list 1997

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:38:35 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput! -Reply

> DON'T HAVE SHAKESPEARE'S ORIGINAL MANUSCRIPTS TO GO BACK AND CHECK WITH.

> (No, I'm not suggesting John Sampas sold those off too.)

> Best, Gerry Nicosia

Now that is funny .... :)

david rhaesa

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:46:13 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: The korror of hen foing gurthur

Zach,

I fail to see how the buccolic Wisconsin bashes you describe (which

sound great to me) are fundamentally different than the Human Be-In.

Everything is the same. Everything is different.

J Stauffer

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:59:18 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: The 100 Year Test

Jerry,

We agree on alot. If the will is forged--let Nicosia have it. But if

it isn't, then John Sampas can do anything he wants with it--burn it if

that's his thing. The courts will decide and no Beat-L vote will make

any damn difference.

As I said before, I would prefer that the stuff is available. But

despite having spent a long time in the academy studying lit crit, I am

not convinced that the world will be a whole lot poorer without a lot of

textual criticsm resulting from scholarly perusal of these things. The

primary works are what are important, and they are there. I never knew

Jan, but do you really think that all that mattered to her was seeing

that the archive was preserved? For her this had to be about paternity,

about her very justified anger about the way Jack and his family had

treated her. This is not a scholarly war. It is a battle for blood and

guts. I just don't see Gerry and the ghost of Jan standing tall only

for academic rights to inquire into the Kerouac ouvre. There is a lot

more to it than that and that is why it gets so damn nasty on both

sides. 100 years from now the work will be there. The scholarship will

be boring 100 year old stuff. People will rediscover the work based on

the principle texts. Do you think alot about what happened to Keat's

overcoat (if there was one)? Would it matter if some actor in London

had bought it rather than it being in the British Museum?

> Jan Kerouac did go away. Gerry Nicosia has not.

> It is the Collection that is important. Everything else is a side issue.

> Jerry Cimino

> Fog City

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:27:18 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Overview, Part One

Julie,

Thanks much for this note of sanity. I also appreciated Jeffery

Weinberg's reasoned, balanced view. I think that most Beat-L members

have been very patient with this. We realize it is important. We also

know that the courts are going to solve it and we are not.

I am ready to cast my one vote to ask these guys to all just take their

self serving posts elsewhere. Go outside the bar and slug it out. Let's

talk about Jack Kerouac, or Jack's texts. All these guys might have

something to add when they get trough libelling each other.

J Stauffer (I might have a Master's Degree too, watch out!)

Julie Hulvey wrote:. .

> So I should worry about these poor Kerouac scholars who are either scratching

> each others eyes out or stabbing each other in the back, or else busy

> changing our little corner of cyberspace into a weeks-long info-mercial ?

> It is to laugh!

> Julie (no scholar - don't bother checking)

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:34:21 -0700

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From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Attila the Hun

Hey, Attila! May 14, 1997

What, did Anstee and Chaput wear their fists out punching at me?

Time for guy number three to step up? (Maher ain't been doin' too bad

either with his "sophomoric criticism.")

Didn't you guys ever read the rules of fair fightin'? One against

one, and at least a week to recuperate. That was the rule in my old

neighborhood.

Nick the Greek

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:34:32 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Chaput is Kaput!

Gerald Nicosia wrote:

> >

> Dave, May 14, 1997

> What I meant is this. Stephen Hawking is arguing with another

> astrophysicist. The other astrophysicist suddenly says, "The moon is made of

green cheese." The other astrophysicist is either marked as loony or forever

loses his credibility in the astrophysics community.

> However, suppose Hawking is talking with Chaput, and Chaput says, "The

moon is made of green cheese."

> Chaput doesn't lose his professional credibility, because he has none

in astrophysics.

it seems that Hawking is fairly good at recognizing different types of

rhetorical explanations are necessary for varying audiences. my hunch

is that he could provide a fairly devestating yet kind explanation for

why the phrase "the moon is made of Green Cheese" is meaningless

scientifically even though it might have meaning in other contexts.

> My point is that if Ann Charters were on the Beat List saying it

doesn't matter that Kerouac's archive is being split up, xeroxes are just as

good, etc., she'd lose all professional credibility. She doesn't dare do that,

and that's why she hasn't appeared here (even though she works for Sampas).

There you go again. The fact that she would not be able to make

academically silly arguments does not necessarily provide the basis for

why Ms. Charters does not choose to participate in this listserv.

Moreover, the fact that she "works" for Sampas does not necessarily

determine her choices concerning which listservs she participates in (or

for what she has for breakfast for that matter). once again, you're

jumping from point A to point Q in a conspiratorial mode. Frankly, i

don't understand WHY you feel a need to incorporate these conspiratorial

arguments into your discourse. it seems that your arguments are far

more informative and persuasive if such methods could be omitted. it

doesn't take a Stephen Hawking to recognize unsupported conspiracy

charges.

> Chaput says he "sees Sampas around." Every argument he's brought

against me in the past two weeks has already been used either by Sampas

himself, his lawyers, or Ann Charters over the past three years. I feel like

I'm replaying an old, old chess game with him. Now how does Chaput know all

this stuff? The only people who remember the moves of the game that exactly

are the ones who played it.

it isn't a chess game. it is a different conversation b/c of who we the

audience are (folks who've not been privvy to previous wrestling

bouts). i don't understand, again, the frustration at facing perennial

questions concerning your position.

> You may consider that circumstantial evidence, but people have been

sent to the gallows on circumstantial evidence, if it's strong enough.

i doubt that you're in your wildest fantasies wishing the gallows for

Sampas. i want to believe that you are interested rather in preserving

Kerouac archives as you've said. the consistent "tossing in" of these

types of phrases makes it much easier for folks to question

movitations.

circumstantial evidence of conspiracy is a very very very hard

argumentative road to traverse.

i don't think, and perhaps i'm missing something here, that the

conspiratorial tones and suggestions in many of your messages are at all

intrinsic to your support of retaining Kerouac's arvhives at the NYPL or

elsewhere. what do these conspiratorial asides do for your position but

alienate readers?

i agree with you by the way, that humans are as a rule atrocious

photocopiers. don't know why.

david rhaesa

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:13:53 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Attila the Hun

At 07:34 PM 5/14/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Hey, Attila! May 14, 1997

> What, did Anstee and Chaput wear their fists out punching at me?

>Time for guy number three to step up? (Maher ain't been doin' too bad

>either with his "sophomoric criticism.")

-I don't understand why you think you are untouchable. Your textual analysis

in the book is not "sophomoric". But if it was, that is an issue that would

be taken up by scholars who would come up with a thesis and discourse on why

it would be described as such. Am I sophmoric because I am a first year

Graduate student in American Studies with a concentration in the American

Renaissance of the nineteenth century? I then could not ever take issue with

your work should I find a reason to without fear of violent reprisal? Is

that not the nature of scholarship? Surely your work on Vietnam vets had

improved upon someone else's work that could not be researched at the time

of your studies. I have one published thesis in a scholarly journal that I

am proud of but if one was to take issue with it I wouldn't be offended. I

would be interested though in what they had to say. Geez...Paul MAHER JR.

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:28:52 -0400

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From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

In a message dated 97-05-14 21:02:28 EDT, you write:

<< an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

>idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

>for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

>experience, >>

At the age of 15 I heard my mother start reading out loud and translating The

Ticket That Exploded to her French lover, Claude Pelieu. I also heard her

translating Reality Sandwiches. By the time I was 16 I had met AG, LF, Bob

Kaufman, and all the Beats living in SF including Charles Plymell. I can't

say that it changed my life because it was the way my life was.

I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

of the Beats into French. Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

famous in France than in America.

Pam Plymell

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:40:53 -0500

Reply-To: race@midusa.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> In a message dated 97-05-14 21:02:28 EDT, you write:

> << an admirable cause no doubt, but i don't know if this is such a great

> >idea. at a high school level, at least in terms of my

> >for-just-few-fucking-more-weeks-will-i-havetosay-ongoing highschool

> >experience, >>

> At the age of 15 I heard my mother start reading out loud and translating The

> Ticket That Exploded to her French lover, Claude Pelieu. I also heard her

> translating Reality Sandwiches. By the time I was 16 I had met AG, LF, Bob

> Kaufman, and all the Beats living in SF including Charles Plymell. I can't

> say that it changed my life because it was the way my life was.

> I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> My mother, Mary Beach and Claude Pelieu are considered the best translators

> of the Beats into French. Their translation of Bob Kaufman made him more

> famous in France than in America.

> Pam Plymell

as usual the Cherry Valley connection provides wonderful insights.

i recall a student at Stuyvesant who told me her introduction to

literature that mattered to her was Kafka. she was so far ahead of me

and my kansas-to kill a mockinbird education. she went on to

comparative lit at Stanford. used to talk long distance about

shakespeare papers over the phone. she seems to have handled it

reasonably well. writes regularly for the New Republic. this week's

piece on the Philadelphia volunteer talkathon was priceless in my

opinion.

my experience with working with high school students in the summers over

the years at kansas, baylor, dartmouth, michigan, iowa, illinois state,

fort hays state (and some i've probably lost to the memory banks) is

that they are way under-rated in their ability to "handle" materials.

david rhaesa

is charles still on-the-road?

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:47:08 -0500

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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

>...

amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo) shouldn't be

forced but if the palate is ready then i would think this literature,

which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

danger. As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

protection they need.

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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:40:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

In-Reply-To: <337A873C.37D1@sunflower.com>

I wholeheartedly agree with Patricia. I'm a college senior, so high

school wasn't that long ago, and I really resent that the

content of many conservative high school English classes leads one to

believe that nothing worthwhile was written after the Catcher in the Rye.

While I think that it is important for students to read Dostoevsky and

Kafka and Hemingway and the classics, it is equally important to introduce

them to more modern/post-modern/whatever authors who are quite likely

writing in a manner that is more directly applicable to their lives. I

think it would be great if a high school included Coupland's Generation X

in it's curriculum (although I do think it's one of the worst books ever

written); the implications of it's publication affect highschoolers in a

way that War and Peace cannot. Part of the problem with high school (and

i speak only from my experience and that of friends, I'm sure not all

schools are like this) is that it does not change with technological or

intellectual progress. High school students today are, to a large extent,

learning the same thing their parents learned forty years ago and in the

same manner they learned it. At least no one is ducking and covering

anymore...The point of all of this long winded babbling (long day--sorry)

is that hell yes the beats should be taught in school, if for no other

reason than students will read it. I think the attention of the average

student, staring out the window, bored to tears by emily Dickinson's

prattling, might be piqued by someone like Allen Ginsberg (or perhaps by

Gregory Corso and his ode to Dickinson!) Isn't the point to educate, to

encourage students to read and learn and expand their horizons? Why do

schools manipulate this to mean educate a little, encourage students to

read only certain books and learn only certain things, expand their

horizons to a certain, approved level? I love patricia's comment that

"protection from thought and understanong is not a protection they

need"--it should be every teachers creed!!

Tracy

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:

> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> >...I don't believe it has ever hurt a teenager to read good literature.

> >...

> amen, i find it strange how much good literature and thought is to be

> hidden from the young, to protect them, but very little of television is

> ever turned off. Beat literature , (like beets,hi rinaldo) shouldn't be

> forced but if the palate is ready then i would think this literature,

> which i consider real literature of this time and age should be, must be

> allowed, to shut their minds in an artificial box is to me far greater

> danger. As much as i enjoy twitting the generations that are two

> generations younger than my son i know that they must face with us, an

> incredible world and protection from thought and understanding is not a

> protection they need.

> p

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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:42:15 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: something completely different .... -Reply

Patricia Elliott wrote: