beat list 1997

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:04:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Antoine, it is a glub

Antoine,

Did you ever see the Woody Allen movie where he went to rob a bank and

could not print clearly? He got into an argument with the teller who

insisted his note said "glub" and not "gun." Damn funny scene. Me I

try not to worry too much about spulling. I mean, we don't spull win we

tulk, do we?

Well to hide from pre-school children maybe, but otherwise, not.

Happiness is a warm glub,

Bang bang shoot shoot

Happiness is a warm glug.

Lennon/McCartney

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:10:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

In-Reply-To: <199705271132.HAA25507@biggs.microtec.net>

i'll substitute for the ball, which will probably be immediately

deconstructed, leaving me

and my soul

benched

in heaven

>Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

>seemingly bred of Gaelic

>Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> Ref: ********

> Bill Gargan

> Coach:**********

> Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

>language of choice when swearing!

> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

>feast!

> Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

>...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:15:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Beat and Marriage

Gregory Corso's "Marriage" is one of my all time favorite poems. I was

lecturing a group of high school students on The Beat Generation and I asked

if anyone had heard of Corso. Two seventeen-year-old boys had not only heard

of him but had written a paper on him (*surpirse!!*). I read "Marriage" to

them as poetry that gives you permission to laugh.

I have to be honest and say that as much as I love "Howl,""Kaddish," and

"Plutonian Ode," "Marriage" has probably had the most lasting impact on me

personally as Poetry giving you permission to laugh and have fun.

Speaking of laughing and having fun, check out Hal Sirowitz's "Mother Said."

You will not be the same when you finish.

Paul McDonald

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:15:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: Antoine, it is a glub

In-Reply-To: <338ADBE4.71E1E18B@scsn.net>

you can be in my dream

if i can be in yours*

glub

it's not just for breakfast any more..

*bob dylan sed that.

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:37:30 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

>Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

>seemingly bred of Gaelic

>Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

Geez, second time in less than a day that hurley has been mentioned in my

presence after 46 years of hurley-less existence. Something cosmic going on

around here.

Michael

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:34:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: What kind of game does Chaput have?

Antoine:

What kind of game does Chaput have? Can I take him to my left? How

about the spin dribble and coming up with a left handed hook shot?\

I feel pretty good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.

Peace,

:-)

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:40:23 +0200

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nils-Xivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>

Subject: Kerouac's muse

I just wanted, in the midst of all this estate-babbel, to direct

attention to the stars. That's right. And more specifically the stars

towards the end of "on the Road" ("and tonight the stars'll be out, and

don't you know that God is Pooh Bear, the evening star must be drooping and

shedding her sparkled dims on the prairie, which is..."), and suggest these

stars be Kerouac's muse. They represent Salvatore's ability to finally

remember (that & the fact that Dean is gone, GONE, now for good). The stars

have been such an emblem ever since Emersons essays, and also gleam in

Salingers "Seymour, an introduction;" when Seymour critizices

Buddy's short-stories for not being honest enough. C'mon you can do better,

he says, and then asks Buddy: "Where all you're stars out? Did you write

you're heart out?"---The same way, maybe, Sal looks up into Deep Black and

opens his heart, thinking of Dean Moriarty, Old Dean Moriarty. He's at the

end, and the novel can finally begin...

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 06:47:46 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

Comments: To: LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

I love the smell of napalm in the morning, but my three-day

weekend is over and I've got to be able to concentrate at

my job. If I continue to be involved in the back-biting

and name-calling here, I'm simply not going to be able

to pay enough attention to the back-biting and name-calling

here at work. So I'm taking a break from BEAT-L for a little

while. Somebody let me know if it ever gets back to a nice

20 or 30 messages a day ...

Parting shots -- I'm glad a few people have expressed their

dissatisfaction with Rod Anstee's devices, and to those who

have called on me to join in on this, I can only say that

I've generally been too appalled at Gerald Nicosia's lack

of rhetorical finesse and self control to take much notice

of Rod's posts in the first place. I studied debate in

college (I got an A, and always won) and I have to say that

while there've been some excellent words written by the

peacemakers here at BEAT-L (and certainly some memorable

and wonderful moments, which I'll miss), the performances

by all the principal disputants have been unimpressive.

I'm now going to demonstrate my own (often highly

effective) rhetorical device here, which is to pick up

my papers, still talking, and walk out of the room in

disgust.

SIGNOFF BEAT-L.

Peace everybody. This morning the New York Times

uncovered a new holocaust on the shores of the Congo

River, near the site of Conrad's "Heart of Darkness."

There's got to be a better way. And I'm not finding

it here.

-----------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:52:28 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

Antoine Maloney wrote:

> Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

> seemingly bred of Gaelic

> Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> Ref: ********

> Bill Gargan

> Coach:**********

> Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

> language of choice when swearing!

> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

> feast!

> Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

> ...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

an old Indian game ....

i think it would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red

Rover now and mix up the sides a bit ...

david rhaesa

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:55:59 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Antoine, it is a glub

Marie Countryman wrote:

> you can be in my dream

> if i can be in yours*

> glub

> it's not just for breakfast any more..

> ak

> mc

> *bob dylan sed that.

Dream I saw Saint Augustine

last night

and Joe Hill was his

back-up doo-dah singer

and he sent the whole

lot of us

packing

david rhaesa

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:58:21 +0100

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

In-Reply-To: <v01530500afb05b2f8efa@[204.181.15.86]>

On Tue, 27 May 1997, Michael Czarnecki wrote:

> Geez, second time in less than a day that hurley has been mentioned in my

> presence after 46 years of hurley-less existence. Something cosmic going on

> around here.

Yep... lots of cosmicness ; although sadly not "cosmic" in the good old

stereotypical hippy "peace & love" sense, more along the lines of big

angry celestial objects scraping bits off on each other until eventually

the whole entire thing goes bang in a terrible supernova white fire the

light from which eventually reaches the planet Earth several millenia

later where nobody gives a fuck.

Olly.

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:03:00 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: What kind of game does Chaput have?

At 09:34 AM 5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Antoine:

>What kind of game does Chaput have? Can I take him to my left? How

>about the spin dribble and coming up with a left handed hook shot?\

>I feel pretty good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.

Grew up in Lowell in the "Acre". We were so poor they tore our house down

and built "slums". Couldn't aford to pay attention. I had to fight my way

across the North Common to get to school. Had to walk a mile to get to

school every day. UPHILL BOTH WAYS. Basketball!!!! SWIIIISH!!!!

>Peace,

> :-)

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:07:52 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: What kind of game does Chaput have?

Phil Chaput wrote:

> At 09:34 AM 5/27/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >Antoine:

> >

> >What kind of game does Chaput have? Can I take him to my left? How

> >about the spin dribble and coming up with a left handed hook shot?\

> >

> >I feel pretty good about this matchup, but what's the book on him.

> >

> Grew up in Lowell in the "Acre". We were so poor they tore our house down

> and built "slums". Couldn't aford to pay attention. I had to fight my way

> across the North Common to get to school. Had to walk a mile to get to

> school every day. UPHILL BOTH WAYS. Basketball!!!! SWIIIISH!!!!

> >Peace,

> > :-)

> >

> >--

> >Bentz

> >bocelts@scsn.net

> >

> >http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> >

swish

that sounds like an uptown court with actual nets...

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:11:48 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

Levi Asher wrote:

> I love the smell of napalm in the morning, but my three-day

> weekend is over and I've got to be able to concentrate at

> my job. If I continue to be involved in the back-biting

> and name-calling here, I'm simply not going to be able

> to pay enough attention to the back-biting and name-calling

> here at work. So I'm taking a break from BEAT-L for a little

> while. Somebody let me know if it ever gets back to a nice

> 20 or 30 messages a day ...

> Parting shots -- I'm glad a few people have expressed their

> dissatisfaction with Rod Anstee's devices, and to those who

> have called on me to join in on this, I can only say that

> I've generally been too appalled at Gerald Nicosia's lack

> of rhetorical finesse and self control to take much notice

> of Rod's posts in the first place. I studied debate in

> college (I got an A, and always won) and I have to say that

> while there've been some excellent words written by the

> peacemakers here at BEAT-L (and certainly some memorable

> and wonderful moments, which I'll miss), the performances

> by all the principal disputants have been unimpressive.

> I'm now going to demonstrate my own (often highly

> effective) rhetorical device here, which is to pick up

> my papers, still talking, and walk out of the room in

> disgust.

> SIGNOFF BEAT-L.

> Peace everybody. This morning the New York Times

> uncovered a new holocaust on the shores of the Congo

> River, near the site of Conrad's "Heart of Darkness."

> There's got to be a better way. And I'm not finding

> it here.

> -----------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> ###################################

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

take care, Levi. probably visit the Queensboro and Kicks websites more

often now....

hope that either you or I or both are still alive when this thread ends

and something fresh could start again

somewhere round my corner

in a filling station called Oz.

bye,

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:21:42 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: signoff

you all

just thought i would let you know that i can take no more of the community

erosion that has occured.

i am signing off.

please feel free to contact me if you would like to TALK beat or write

poetry or just chat, my email is:

dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca

and im still hanging about the boho list as well.

in the meantime i will miss all & hope one day i fell welcome again.

your

derek beaulieu

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:43:54 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: SIGNOFF BEAT-L

Comments: cc: brooklyn@netcom.com

In-Reply-To: <199705271347.GAA19990@netcom.netcom.com>

This is getting really bad. This used to be one of my favorite lists

because it was never boring and tedious, always interesting, and it never

fell into the personal conversations and arguements like every other list

on the freakin' planet did. I was ecstatic with Gerry Nicosia came onto

the list. "Wow," I thought, "what an incredible resource of information

this list is about to become", not that it wasn't already. Now Levi, who

inspired me to do my own beat site to bring all the best sites together

and give a central location for articles and information which made itself

available through this list. The information I've gotten of this list is

what got me an instructional assitantship for the Beat class we offer

here. The internet is going to be a big part of my contribution to that

class. What this list has become really turns my stomach. Gerry is a

great guy, from what I've read. He really cares about his cause, as do I

and many, many others. Phil and the others have also been valuable

resources and interesting commentators in the past. But there's more to

studying the Beats than this. There used to be so I know there can be

again. This back-and-forth bickering has got to stop before we lose

anymore list members. I remember when Ron Whitehead left the list as

well. I was sick of that mess the day it started. I miss his crazy posts

as well, and am eternally grateful for the posters, flyers, magazines, and

info he's sent my way since I first me him through this list. People like

Levi are institutions on this list and the reason it is such a pleasure to

be on. I hope you can come back soon Levi. If this keeps going on for

two more months, I may be joining you.

Regretfully yours,

------------------

Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608

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Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 07:55:26 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: signoff

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> you all

> just thought i would let you know that i can take no more of the community

> erosion that has occured.

> i am signing off.

> please feel free to contact me if you would like to TALK beat or write

> poetry or just chat, my email is:

> dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca

> and im still hanging about the boho list as well.

> in the meantime i will miss all & hope one day i fell welcome again.

> your

> derek beaulieu

It's really sad to see people like derek and levi leaving the list

because of what has been happening here and because of the incredible

post volume that I am also finding oppressive. I would welcome back the

old limit on posts per day and hope maybe we can all restrain ourselves

somewhat in the number of really extraneous posts. I have certainly

posted my share.

Missing the days of 25-30 posts a day and not sure how much longer I can

take it.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:56:27 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Copyright laws and the Privacy Act

David:

You asked whether posting private mail is a violation of copyright law. I don't

know about the law, but I know a lot about the Privacy Act of 1934, which

addresses the issue of whether or not communication intended for one party is

public domain. Specifically, this is the law that forbids evidence obtained

from phone-tapping to be used in court. It applies, too, to radio

communications, such as when the Coast Guard overhears drug runners talking

(which is how I know this particular law so well, being a former Coast Guard

radioman).

I'm not qualified to interpret the law, but I would guess that e-mail

communications and letters fall under the same category as radio and telephone

communications. Making any such communication public without the express

consent of the "sender" would be a violation of the Privacy Act, and probably

Hope this helps... and I hope it's accurate!

---Wes

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:05:23 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: my condolences to whoever just "signed off"...

i just "signed on" and wanted to try out sending a message....

i would like to discuss William S. Burroughs' Western Lands and his general

philosophy, which intrigues me, and which I see evidence of

everywhere....perhaps his plan of infiltration has worked after all. Much

more effective than many supposedly subversive writers/artists. Gives me

faith of sorts, that once people take that step forward in consciousness(or

rather, once it is taken for them) there's no going back.

Although i was doubtful about the use of the internet at first, i now think

that it is an invaluable distributor of information and ideas. Kind of

terrifying the power and ferocity with which ideas reproduce themselves,

contaminating increasing #s & causing imperceptible mutations that have

revolutionary resonance WITHOUT AN IDENTIFIABLE SOURCE.

With authorship comes responsibility but who in her left mind would want to

take credit/get recognition for propelling fellow humans even faster towards

the Inevitable by reconciling them with it? Is that the purpose of art, to

heal? Is it possible to heal too much and in doing so forget about necessary

pain?

Which is the greater burden, life or death? Ok, i don't wanna start getting

cosmic on you, but i hope we have something to talk about now, and i don't

want any more people signing off because they're bored. Remember: Bored Is

Boring. what happened to the lost art of imagination? jeesus why do i feel

like i'm typing into a void.(don't answer

that)!!!!!!!!----------------Marioka7@aol.com (aka maya)

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:24:43 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

Reply to message from stratis@ODYSSEE.NET of Tue, 27 May

Which side would the elf be on? :)

Diane.

>Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

>seemingly bred of Gaelic

>Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> Ref: ********

> Bill Gargan

> Coach:**********

> Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

>language of choice when swearing!

> ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

>feast!

> Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

>...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

--Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:30:06 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: To the Peacemakers...

Marie Countryman wrote:

> wes wrote

> >Hello, Jerry! Well, I'll tell you what: there's a reason I never post

> >anything

> >to Rod Anstee. I still remember the crap he threw at Ron Whitehead (not to

> >mention others). He's a man with his own agenda, and he does what strikes

his

> >fancy... whether anybody "puts up with it" or not. Silence is not being

party

> >to him. So, since my inaction is a statement, let the statement be I

> >won't be a

> >party to any of it, nor will I let someone like Anstee dictate any of my

> >actions

> >or reactions. As I posted in an open letter to Gerry Nicosia, I believe he's

> >made his point, and made it well. The other guys are just making asses out

> >themselves... my impression is that they like to make asses of themselves.

> >

> >Why should I waste my time posting to them? It won't change anything they

do.

> >Only reasonable people listen to reasonable voices.

> >

> >All the best, ---Wes

> *****************

> hello wes! couldnt agree more, and believe i said same the last time rod

> bullied one of our angels off list, i still miss ron whitehead, too, wes.

> and i dislike bullies intensely.

> yrs

> mc

yess, another vote for deleting those that underestimate thier audiance.

I resisted critiqueing ra terrible wandering sentences.

but Gerald is way above it. jerry you are a born rabble rouser, i like

that,

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:53:29 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Nick, uh, I mean Judith, uhh nick

>Doesn't the notion of "fair use" only apply to published sources?

No, it doesn't. I checked with the Bible (aka Chicago Manual of Style). Fair

use is very complicated of course, but the fact that material is unpublished

does not negate fair use. It is a complicating factor, and the Manual

suggests using even more caution than usual in quoting from unpublished

material, but the doctrine still holds.

In any case, the overriding issue here is whether you can *look at* material

without permission from both parties.

For those that are interested, the following components determine fair use:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether or not it's for

commercial or not for profit educational purposes

the nature of the copuyrighted work

the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the

copyrighted work as a whole

the effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the

copyrighted work.

There is nothing in this to stop scholars making photocopies for their own

scholarly purposes. The Kerouac estate might legtimately want to stop

extensive quotation from letters or notebooks because it would affect

adversely their own future sales of books based on those works, and they

would have the legal right to do that. But what we're talking about is

whether they have the legal right to stop someone looking at letters in an

archive.

Nick

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:26:38 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Ma Tucker

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> This is one I never finished. I figured it was beyond my reach and was

> really a short story.

> (snipped)

I think you should leave it the way it is. Great ending.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:29:54 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

RACE --- wrote:

> Antoine Maloney wrote:

> >

> > Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

> > seemingly bred of Gaelic

> > Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> >

> > Ref: ********

> >

> > Bill Gargan

> >

> > Coach:**********

> >

> > Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> >

> > Team members:************

> >

> > The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> >

> > Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> >

> > Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> >

> > Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> >

> > Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> >

> > Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> >

> > Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

> > language of choice when swearing!

> >

> > ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

> > feast!

> >

> > Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

> > ...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care less!?!

> > Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> >

> > "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to

do!"

> > -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

> an old Indian game ....

> i think it would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red

> Rover now and mix up the sides a bit ...

> david rhaesa

David,

I think you should be the sub ref. Did I read you coached debating at

Dartmouth?

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:46:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Copyright laws and the Privacy Act

Wes Lundburg wrote:

> David:

> You asked whether posting private mail is a violation of copyright law. I

don't

> know about the law, but I know a lot about the Privacy Act of 1934, which

> addresses the issue of whether or not communication intended for one party is

> public domain. Specifically, this is the law that forbids evidence obtained

> from phone-tapping to be used in court. It applies, too, to radio

> communications, such as when the Coast Guard overhears drug runners talking

> (which is how I know this particular law so well, being a former Coast Guard

> radioman).

> I'm not qualified to interpret the law, but I would guess that e-mail

> communications and letters fall under the same category as radio and telephone

> communications. Making any such communication public without the express

> consent of the "sender" would be a violation of the Privacy Act, and probably

> copyright law as a result.

> Hope this helps... and I hope it's accurate!

> ---Wes

my hunch is the Privacy Act restrictions are negative restraints on

government intrusion into private communications. i'm certain it is

accurate in that regard. don't know if it more than an ethical analogy

to the question here.

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:52:22 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Hoops anyone?

Diane Carter wrote:

> RACE --- wrote:

> >

> > Antoine Maloney wrote:

> > >

> > > Anyone for a little hoops? ...or pick up hurley? Crazy Irish game

> > > seemingly bred of Gaelic

> > > Football and Lacrosse and capable of truly sustained violence!

> > >

> > > Ref: ********

> > >

> > > Bill Gargan

> > >

> > > Coach:**********

> > >

> > > Jan Kerouac John Sampas

> > >

> > > Team members:************

> > >

> > > The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> > >

> > > Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> > >

> > > Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> > >

> > > Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> > >

> > > Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> > >

> > > Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

> > >

> > > Substitutes can sign on here; please indicate affiliation and

> > > language of choice when swearing!

> > >

> > > ...Jack's bringin' the wine and burgers for the after game

> > > feast!

> > >

> > > Apologies to everyone who didn't get picked for one of the teams.

> > > ...and are standing around the schoolyard loking like you could care

less!?!

> > > Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> > >

> > > "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to

> do!"

> > > -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

> >

> > an old Indian game ....

> >

> > i think it would be more fun if you all played a bit of Red Rover Red

> > Rover now and mix up the sides a bit ...

> >

> > david rhaesa

> David,

> I think you should be the sub ref. Did I read you coached debating at

> Dartmouth?

> DC

in another lifetime .... you could not PAY ME ENUF to referee this

foray!!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:39:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Ginsberg poem

ran across a poem by AG that kind of describes how I feel today

We Rise on Sun Beams

and Fall in the Night

Dawn's orb orange-raw shining over Palisades

bare crowded branches bush up from the marshes--

New Jersey with my father riding automobile

highway to Newark airport--Empire State's

spire, horned buildingtops, Manhattan

rising as in W.C. Williams' eyes between wire trestles--

trucks sixwheeled steady rolling overpass

beside New York--I am here

tiny under sun rising in vast white sky

staring thru skeleton new buildings,

with pen in hand awake....

Allen Ginsberg

December 11, 1974

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:05:26 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Thugs

May 27, 1997

To all the Good and Friendly Folk on the Beat List:

I hope the past week has been instructive to you all.

We have seen the three chief representatives of Mr. Sampas's point

of view--Phil Chaput, Rod Anstee, and Paul Maher--employ the tactics of thugs.

I do not know whether any of these three has been hired by Mr.

Sampas to represent him, or whether they have chosen to do their dirty work

freelance. At least one, Mr. Chaput, has admitted he gets "some" of his

material from Mr. Sampas.

Mr. Chaput has posted privileged information from Jan Kerouac's

income tax returns here on the Beat-List--material that could not have come

to him thru any lawful channel.

Mr. Chaput has accused me of breaking the law by reselling

individual xerox copies of Kerouac's letters (not for profit)--copies that

had been made solely for study--to a library, which also claimed to me that

it would use them only for study purposes. He could not, however, produce a

statute that indicated this was a crime.

Mr. Anstee has gone farther. He has claimed that I sold (or

donated, he couldn't quite get that straight) xerox copies of Kerouac

letters THAT BELONGED TO COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY to the U Mass, Lowell library.

The only problem with that is, there are no xeroxes from Columbia University

in the MEMORY BABE archive in U Mass, Lowell. In other words, not to put

too fine a point upon it, Mr. Anstee's accusation was an outright lie.

Then we have Mr. Maher, a convicted thief himself, accusing me of

having sold a "stolen, worthless archive" to U Mass, Lowell. The University

of Massachusetts is not in the habit of buying stolen material; and the

archive has been there for ten years, eight of which it was in full public

display (so public in fact that someone stole 60 autograph letters); yet NOT

ONE SINGLE COMPLAINT OR LEGAL ACTION WAS ACTUALLY FILED AGAINST IT.

Futhermore, as for the archive being "worthless," there are four

major American libraries that are willing to pay Lowell their $7,500 back to

recover the archive and make it available to the public--as soon as Lowell

agrees to divest of it.

Beyond this, we have Mr. Anstee printing my private letters here on

the Beat-List. A writer's private letters are given the strictest copyright

protection under U.S. federal law, and that protection has been upheld in

every court decision I know of--including the famous one that kept a

biographer (I forget his name) from including any of J.D. Salinger's

personal letters in an unauthorized biography.

Because the Beat-List is a public forum does not mean people can

keep breaking the law here with impunity.

Some people have expressed their concern that I was "driven off the

Beat-List like Ron Whitehead." I have not been driven off, but neither do I

intend to keep arguing with criminals and thugs.

I will speak to one of my lawyers today, to see what legal action

can be taken to keep these crimes from continuing.

Yours for the truth, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:09:01 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Libraries and Permissions

Here's my report from a good contact in the University Library.

1. Most libraries expect and allow open access to collections, open at any

rate to 'qualified' persons.

2. Sometimes the deal made by the person selling the archive insists on

restrictions, which the library obeys (i.e. letters not to be looked at

until ten years after death of the writer). Note the agreement is with the

person selling the archive, not the copyright holder.

3. The copyright holder can restrict publication of copyright material, but

my librarian did not feel they could legally restrict access if it was not

the copyright holder that made the sale or donation.

4. It is not necessary to obtain permissions to *look at* letters in an archive.

So if UM Lowell are restricting access to the Memory Babe archive, that is a

decision they are making on their own, under pressure from whoever... it

sounds like it runs against the agreement made between them and Gerry

Nicosia at the time of the sale of the archive, and depending on that

agreement they are certainly disobeying the spirit of it, and quite possibly

the letter of the law in that agreement too.

If they are unwilling to open the archive, I think they should be prepared

to admit the reasons for this and sell it back to Gerry or on to another

library.

And if the Sampas family want to restrict access to *this* archive, it's

hardly surprising that so little of their archive is in library hands and

open to inspection, is it?

And please don't tell me the Kerouac archive is their property and they can

do what they like with it legally and we should be grateful for small

crumbs. I know it's theirs legally. But we are dealing with the legacy of

one of the great

American writers and there are moral and scholarly obligations that come

with owning the archive as well as ownership and collecting royalties. One

question - is the remainder of the archive being properly cared for, under

security and proper climate control?

Nick W-W

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:10:07 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Hoops Anyone?

> Team members:************

> The Solitary Riders vs. The Conspirators

> Gerry Nicosia Rod Anstee

> Bentz Kirby Phil Chaput

> Jerry Cimino Paul Maher

> Wes Lundberg Attila Gyenis

> Mike Cakebread Ann Charters

How did I end up on a team? I thought I was doing a pretty good job of staying

out of this... You know, I'd really rather be playing opposite Dennis Rodman...

at least I know what he'll do and why...

Peace... (if that means anything anymore)

---Wes Lundburg

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:33:37 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: John Mitchell <mitchell@AUGSBURG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Litigation Theology

In-Reply-To: <338A1061.E26B1899@scsn.net>

Dear R. Bentz Kirby, Esq.:

Very generous of you circumstantially. (But for gad's sake, let us reserve

the right to fight over the depositions of our lives.) For me, you

momentarily restored a little wryness to the twists and turns of the

BeatList. (I'm not been honest--sometimes when I read the dozens of daily

posts re: the Estate Wars I break into hysterical giggles at the insults,

Marie's simple to the point gads, and the horror! the horror!, perpetually

agast but not forlorn.) My remarks were aimed at you, but don't worry, I'm

no Zen archer. I endure wide of the mark and am more likely to hit the

cat's ass than the bull's eye. And I have to concede that one of my

favorite students is now a lawyer (he had the wisdom never to take a course

from me) (he wanted to be a writer but as far as he got was jumping into

the Hemingway pool in Key West with his clothes on, despite the horror of

the tour guides and the six-toed cats, now is working himself to death in

Chattanooga before daylight til long after darkness and just wants to spend

more time with his kids and says he will never be able to pay off his

student loans). Yes, I am indeed a John R., but without contract,

portfolio, or estate, hence my fabled savoir-faire.

J. Model A Ford Mitchell, M. A. (in English!)

>John Mitchell wrote,

>> The problem with lawyers is not that they stink, it's that they come

>> so

>> highly and peculiarly perfumed (& not, from the word GO, with Corso's

>> gasoline).

>> That's just MO(loch).

>> Thanks, but asking a lawyer to clarify his/her role in anything is

>> like

>> asking the Devil in all his/her glory and/or God in all his/her mercy

>> to

>> speak, given either's thousand tongues, some of them split, others

>> twisted

>> around their own feet.

>> That's just my theory of Litigation Theology.

>> Rertospectively yrs.,

>> John M.

>> Be cool. And if you cain't be cool, don't drool.

> ROTFLMAO, even it is aimed at me. Good post John. By the way, were

>you kin to John R. ;-)

>--

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:38:36 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?

Beat Friends,

Through all this estate shit, one of the most intelligent posts that

graced my mailbox said, basically, "You know, Kerouac wasn't the only

Beat."

Seeing two of the more vocal members of our humble ranks give up the ghost

today was terribly disheartening. I have to ask why? How did all this get

so damned out of hand? What's the point? And most importantly, where did

it get us?

Absofuckinglutely nowhere.

What happens now? Our list that used to boast nearly 250 lovers of Beat

Literature and Culture is now shrinking, and to what ends? It's no one's

fault, we all contributed in our own way.

But to get to the subject of my post. . . where is the rest of the

Beat-L? Leon, where are you? How about a Neal Cassady story? Mongo? How

about you? Got anything for us? Or have you two left us as well?

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:08:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hoops Anyone?

I'm OK with the team I'm on. I just don't want to be traded!

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:41:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Where oh where has my Beat-L gone?

sniff, snifff.....SOBB!!!

This has been such an eventful and emotional first day at Beetle for me. I

mean betel. I mean Be-till. Beat-ill? but I digress.

Thank you Bruce for filling me in on what has been going on. It sounds like

a whole lot of people are MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY AND SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ON

THIS LIST. Please, have a little perspective. So, now that everything is

crumbling it's the PERFECT time for a change of direction, no?

All those in favor, don't respond.

I'm glad so many of you agree with me.

Ok, now let's move on. How about a Topic of the Day?

I propose: William Burroughs. One burning question among many: How can I get

in touch with him????

Let me tell you a story. It's a bizarre, strange, hauntingly morbid story

that I actually shouldn't tell you in "public". Well here's the "cleaned up"

version: Mr. Burroughs and I have some, er, shall we say CHARACTERISTICS in

common. I had never thought much of him as a writer or knew much about him

until I read "the Western Lands" and learned that he studied the EXACT same

thing as me in college and made references on several occasions in interviews

and the like to obscure subjects that I thought were my private territory,

such as the mysterious ways of the Axolotl. among many others. Well, I don't

want to bore you, so if you want more details, e-mail me : Marioka7@aol.com

(or get myself in trouble by revealing too much)