=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:09:03 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: When is a list not a list
Comments:
cc: Fred Bogin <FDBBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>,
Bill Gargan
<WXGBC%CUNYVM.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
The
changes makes the beat-l not a list anymore.
I think
the real way is better and there is an
over reaction to nothing.
In the
past there have been many threads that have nothing to do with "beat
stuff"
that become people on the list jawing and playing with each other
with fun
word play and personal stuff.
I never
complained about any of this and don't think anyone should. But if
there
were a time when such a new list set-up like this should have been put
in
place it should have been for that sort of posts. But it wasn't and I'm
glad it
wasn't.
The
recent "esate battle" is more related to important "beat
issues" than a
lot of
things that have come across here. I do
not understand the fear and
antipathy
to it and the tendency to shy away from controversy passion
animosity
and insults and information that has come with it.
I
cannot understad how anyone who has an appreciation for many of Ginsberg's
poems
cannot appreciate the passion and invective of some of the posts.
Howl
was a flame. Ginsberg was flaming decades
before the internet.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:36:02 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a list
Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
Howl was a flame. Ginsberg was flaming
decades before the internet.
In a
way I agree with you. I also wondered
if anyone out there has any
quotes
about what Ginsberg thought of the FBI.
I found
this little tidbit in a poem of Ginsberg's called Ecologue:
...Waking
2 a.m. clock tick
What was I dreaming
my body alert
Police light down this dirt road?
Justice Dogs sniffing for Grass
Seeds?
Would they find a little brown
mushroom button
tossed
out my window?
FBI read this
haiku?
Four in
the morning
rib thrill eyes open--
Deep hum thru
the house--
Windmill Whir? Hilltop Radar Blockhouse?
Valley Traffic 5 miles
downtown?
When'll Policecar Machinery assemble
outside State
pine woods?
Head out window--bright Orion
star line,
Pleiades and Dipper
Shinaing silent--
Bathrobe
flashlight, uproad Milky Way
Moved round the house this month
--remember Taurus' Horn up there last
fall?
White
rabbit on goat meadow, got over the chickenwire?
Hop away from flash light? Wait till Godly
Dog wakes up
Come
back! He'll bite you! Here's a green beet leaf!
Pwzxst! Pwzxst!
Pwzxst!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:50:22 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a list
>Return-Path:
<race@midusa.net>
>Date:
Mon, 02 Jun 1997 15:35:49 -0500
>From:
RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
>To:
"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.usc.edu>
>Subject:
Re: When is a list not a list
>References:
<199706022009.NAA11514@hsc.usc.edu>
>
>Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>>
The changes makes the beat-l not a list anymore.
>>
>>
I think the real way is better and
there is an over reaction to nothing.
>>
>>
In the past there have been many threads that have nothing to do with
"beat
>>
stuff" that become people on the list jawing and playing with each other
>>
with fun word play and personal stuff.
>>
>>
I never complained about any of this and don't think anyone should. But if
>>
there were a time when such a new list set-up like this should have been put
>>
in place it should have been for that sort of posts. But it wasn't and I'm
>>
glad it wasn't.
>>
>>
The recent "esate battle" is more related to important "beat
issues" than a
>>
lot of things that have come across here.
I do not understand the fear and
>>
antipathy to it and the tendency to shy away from controversy passion
>>
animosity and insults and information that has come with it.
>>
>>
I cannot understad how anyone who has an appreciation for many of Ginsberg's
>>
poems cannot appreciate the passion and invective of some of the posts.
>>
>>
Howl was a flame. Ginsberg was flaming
decades before the internet.
>
>i'm
on several lists that run this way. it
is very easy to put the List
>address
in your address book and include it in the mail to: line in the
>composition
box. but it does make one actually
think for a second is
>this
a backchannel or is this a list conversation.
in this case i feel
>it
could be either. if you wish to respond
to these comments on-list
>feel
free to include my message.
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
>
Or
simply forward it (like this)
Also, I
am on lists that work that way I guess.
Usually finding out after I
mailed
something I thought would go to the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:10:18 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Burroughs collection
In-Reply-To: <33922AE6.1ED8@midusa.net>
On Sun,
1 Jun 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
though i do have good memories of playing in Columbus once -
>
many many used record stores back then.
i might actually have to plan a
>
road trip one of these days/months/years ....
what
did you play? columbus still has many great used record stores,
definitely
more than cleveland ... was there last week, saw a band whose
bass
player wore a hypnolovewheel shirt (band whose _space mountain_ cd i've
been looking
for fer ages) and the next day, in one of those used record
places
on high street, i found said cd for $3 ...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:44:52 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Howling
Sure
"Howl" was a flame. It flamed
society in general. (Hey, could we
actually
write about what a poem means? Nah, not
here.) The estate
controversy
is only a howl in the comic sense of the word.
The use of
"Howl"
as analogous to the estate controversy is incredibly weak and it does
a
horrible injustice to the poem.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:26:09 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: list in fighting and fbi
June
2, 1997
>>
mr nicosia:
>>
i know you are greatly vexed. but to call in the fbi is just too much for me.
>>
these guys dont just go after the one, which will mean all of list shall be
>>
open to said agents. -- Marie Countryman
>Calling
the cops is in my view a much greater violation of the Beat List
>purpose
than stupid name calling. This is
serious stuff.
>
>J
Stauffer
>
Dear
Marie, James, and others concerned:
I spoke of contacting the FBI about
the private threat by Mr. Paul
Maher--not
about anything that has been posted on the Beat-List.
I identify Mr. Maher since he has
already identified himself as the
threatener.
I don't know if either of you are
married or have children. But
when I
was single and childless, I was pretty cavalier about such things,
figuring,
OK, come after me, I ain't got nothin' to lose anyway. Now that I
have a
wife and a 2-year-old child, I put their safety above all.
Mr. Maher's private threat letter was
not a nice academic criticism
of my
behavior. It was, rather, riddled with
foul, abusive language. The
first
part nearly verged on blackmail--warning me that if I didn't stop my
posts,
he would reveal some very damaging information about me.
Well, this didn't bother me, since I
figure anything Paul Maher
knows
about me, he knows from John Sampas anyway; and anything Mr. Sampas
knows
has already been submitted to a battery of high-paid attorneys.
But the second part of Mr. Maher's
letter warned that if I persisted
in my
posts, he would undertake to do some unspecified harm to me, I am
quoting
now and using his caps: "AND IT WON"T BE ON THE BEAT-L...." He said
nothing,
as he later claimed, about merely "counteracting your critical
biography
with a series of academic treatises that will both take issue with
and
validate my argument against your thesis."
To be perfectly frank, I am still not
convinced that this new
interpretation
is what he really meant. Why would a
thesis that
contradicted
the conclusions of MEMORY BABE terrify me so badly that I would
stop
posting to the Beat-List? Many critics
have already disagreed with
many of
the conclusions in MEMORY BABE; those type of things alternately
intrigue
and amuse me (and occasionally bore me) but they have never yet
frightened
me.
The menacing tone and barroom
vocabulary of Mr. Maher's letter,
combined
with the fact that he is a convicted felon, made me take him very
seriously.
It's not the first such threat I have
received. When Ron Kovic and
I were
staging anti-Gulf War events in Los Angeles in 1991, we regularly
received
death threats. It was Ron Kovic, in
fact, who taught me: "Take
every
threat seriously."
There are plenty of good reasons to
take Maher's threat seriously.
He has
not shown an exceptionally good mental balance in his posts, and
there
is good evidence that someone is inciting him to anger against me.
My first contact with Mr. Maher, after
all, was not on the
Beat-List. It was earlier this year, when I actually
hurried to his defense
after
librarian Martha Mayo had accused him of stealing the missing 60
letters
from the MEMORY BABE collection. I
pointed out to the Lowell DA
that
there was no evidence at all pointing to Mr. Maher as the perpetrator
of this
crime, and that therefore Mr. Maher should be dismissed as a suspect
until
some such evidence showed up. I thought
I had done him a favor. But
as soon
as I joined the Beat-List, Mr. Maher was attacking me and MEMORY
BABE
with exceptional vitriol--calling my work "sophomoric," etc.--for no
apparent
reason. The next thing I knew, he was
attacking me personally
too--out
of the blue.
Mr. Gyensis then posts today to defend
people going public with
unsubstantiated
criminal charges against me, as well as publishing my
private
letters without permission; he also justifies my critics putting me
"to
a higher level of scrutiny" than they deserve themselves. Mr. Gyensis's
former
business partner (in DHARMA BEAT magazine) Mark Hemenway goes even
further;
he asks us to commend Mr. Maher as a model citizen.
I wonder: do Mr. Gyensis and Mr.
Hemenway also approve of sending
threats
thru the mail? Do they view this as
"a higher level of scrutiny"?
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:39:57 -0400
Reply-To: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and
Why?
In-Reply-To:
<199706020514.WAA24185@norway.it.earthlink.net>
> Jack Kerouac is on record in several
places, including a letter to
>
John Clellon Holmes, in June, 1962, saying that he has filed all his papers
> in
file drawers as "a goldmine of information for scholars," and that he
>
wanted future biographers to have access to them. Should we not respect his
>
wishes?
i considered this possibilty, but was
unaware of the fact. in that
case,
more power to you. his wishes most
certainly should be
respected...
> As for "taking in stride" a
systematic campaign of verbal abuse, the
>
most vile insults and accusations, every day for a month--well, like the
>
Indians used to say, "walk a mile in my moccassins and then come back and
>
talk to me."
i have, believe you me. albeit not in the
same situation. it's
definitely
not easy... taking the kind of crap i've seen thrown in your
direction
in the short time i've been here. but, (you knew there'd be a but,
no?)
you have to wonder if it's worth the time and energy it takes to
respond
to them. it's so easy for these folks to say what they say in an
electronic
forum... let's see half of them attack you with equal ferocity
face to
face, or, even better, once they've gotten to know you a little..
if
they'd even be open minded enough to give you chance. i dunno, all
this
crap just seems so petty.. the agendas... i'm not insinuating that
it's
your fault the slander continues. on the contrary, it's mostly the
fault
of the slanderers, who have so little control over their tempers
that
they fall into a sickening cycle of cynicism.
another (probably worthless) $0.02 from yours
truly...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:44:41 -0400
Reply-To: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: ty <ursus@RIVER.GWI.NET>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes
Comments:
To: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91.970602091156.21667E-100000@user2.infinet.com>
>
> It is nice to see someone else who has read the Jaynes book.
>
>
James I read J Jaynes' book in 1981 and again this past spring. I agree
>
with cha wholly! I have also read Korzyksi's "Science and
Sanity" a few
are we referring to "The Origin of
Consciousness in the Breakdown of
the
Bicameral Mind?" if so, i read it also, and was (and still am) amazed
by its
premise...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:45:51 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Minneapolis and the Beats
Hello
James,
Check
out any of Luther's CD's on the Alligator Label-They're all
Houserocking!
He's at the top of his game.
Richard
Houff
Pariah
Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:50:50 -0400
Reply-To: henry <luckfry@NETWAY1.MDC.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: henry <luckfry@NETWAY1.MDC.NET>
Subject: Re: List changes
>Date:
Mon, 02 Jun 1997 18:23:45 -0400
>To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
>From:
henry <luckfry@mail.netway.com>
>Subject:
Re: List changes
>
>
>>>
Bill: Just get rid of those who continue to insult, swear at, or not use
>>>
proper netiquette to othe members...
>>>
Example: calling someone a "FAGGOT" like Chaput did or me calling
Jerry C a
>
>>Go
back and check Mr. Chaput never called anyone a "faggot" this is just
the
kind of stuff that starts fights. Please retract so people don't think
he
actually said this. Henry
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:54:18 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Nationals
Hello
John,
It's a
small world. Here we both have '31's!-man, do they slide
nice.
How's your 7 th. fret-any buzzes? I'm real hard on my instruments.
Wished
I could make the North Carolina gig. I'll be
at Bay
Front. I wonder if Hammond will show? That boy can play a
mean
slide!
Richard
Houff
Pariah
Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:28:34 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beat-L T-Shirt Update
Dear
Beat-L members:
Thanks
to all of you who have emailed or phoned me to place your order for
the
official Beat-L T-shirt which will be ready to ship in a few weeks....
But to
all of you out there who placed your name on the list back in April to
reserve
your T-shirts - Now is the time to honor your committment....
The
T-shirt has been custom designed by artist S.Clay Wilson and is available
in
Large- Extra Large- and Extra Extra Large Sizes. White ink on black 100%
super
deluxe quality cotton preshrunk T-shirt...$18.00 (no shipping or
handling
charges).
Satisfaction
guaranteed.
Master
Card / Visa / Money Order / or Check....
C'Mon
Gerry Nicosia! - If you really care about this Beat-L and promoting it
to the
world, Order a T-shirt!! And how about
you - Jerry C. - How come you
won't
buy a shirt to help promote this list??? And what about you, Paul
Maher?
You can give a shirt to Sampas as a gift!
(only kidding!!!! - don't
be
soooo sensitive, you guys!)
Seriously,
folks - please honor your T-shirt committment as soon as possible.
We
ordered the quantity of shirts and sizes based on your reservations....
You can
view the S. Clay Wilson artwork for the Beat-L shirt at:
http://www.waterrowbooks.com
Thanks
-
Jeffrey
Weinberg
Beat-L
T-shirt Committee
c/o
Water Row Books
PO Box
438
Sudbury
MA 01776
Tel
508-485-8515
Fax
508-229-0885
EMail
Waterrow@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:29:52 -0400
Reply-To: DawnDR@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: PLAY CALLED "KEROUAC"
Just
wanted to pass this on to the rest of the list -- if someone has posted
this in
the past, forgive me.
While
browsing through the NEW YORK POST (temporary lapse - forgive me), came
across
a Caberet Review for a musical named KEROUAC, currently at Theater
East
(211 East 60th St., between Second and Third Avenues, NYC). Among songs
are
"I Keep Falling in Love with My Mother" written by Reena Heenan - who
also
wrote the book for the show - and Shelley Gartner; "Hopelessly Lower
Class"
written by Pete Blue and Benita Green; and "Jack and Neal's Song" (no
name). Seems that a good part of the musical
focuses on the JK/NC
relationship,
and "Jack and Neal's Song" contains the following: "I gave up
half my
life for you and your book, and you wrote me as a cad."
Comments????
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:49:10 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat-L T-Shirt Update
Jeffrey,
My name
has been on the T-Shirt list for months and I've always had every
intention
of honoring my commitment and wearing my shirt with pride!
And I
hope you have them in XXXXXXXX-Large so some of us can get them over
our
swelled heads! And if you have any left
over you might want to try a
bulk
deal to the FBI so their guys can wear them as they sift through the
Beat-L
Archives looking for inciminating posts!
Good
job, Jeffrey. I saw the shirt on your
website and it looks terrific.
Good luck in completing the construction...
seriously!
Jerry
C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:10:55 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: The Feds
Gerald,
If I was the James to whom you referred
in your last post, rest assured
that I
have no fear of the F.B.I. coming over.
In fact, I welcome any and
all
F.B.I. agents who may happen to read this to come on over; we can have a
beer
and talk. Send Scully and Mulder if you
can, I always seem to be
missing
time and waking up with no recollection of where I was or how I got
home. And I've got some really strange prose that
I'm just dying to share
with
pro's of any variety.
Back to surreality, I understand your
concern, even without having a
wife or
child. I take all threats
seriously. I don't ascribe to the
theory
that if
you ignore taunters they'll go away. I
don't really know what to
say
other than that I sym and empathize. If
you haven't already, maybe you
_should_
mention it to the cops. Maybe just
knowing that this sort of thing
could
be in the works will slow some unnamed person / people down.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:49:21 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Changes
My
thanks to James Stauffer and Jerry Cimino for their posts on the
changes
in the reply format. Although it may be
confusing at first,
it's
not a big deal once you get used to it.
I've been on several lists
that
work this way. As far ashaving to type the
long Beat-l address
goes,
you can get around that by setting up a "nickname" file in your
email
system. Thanks for your patience and
cooperation.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:22:31 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is Killing the Beat-List and
Why?
In a
message dated 97-06-01 23:37:23 EDT, you write:
<<
can you explain this shit to me? It is
REAL SHIT isn't
it?? >>
Bentz:
I could
take the Zen approach and say if it's real it doesn't need an
explanation
and I am aware of all your examples I see them every day. In my
time
Clinton would have been a lame duck instead a limp dick President. Oh
well.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:36:47 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: meeting W.S.B. to ben on 5/3/197
In a
message dated 97-06-02 00:17:56 EDT, you write:
<<
I hope you bought a nice Hat in
Wichita.
>>
Race:
Yeah my
contact there is Hat Man Jack in the "real" old Wichita. Last time I
was
through there a bus pulled up, Ernest Tubb's son was driving it for
Charley
Daniels. Sent the whole damn bus from Denver where he was playing to
Wichita
to get Jack to block his hat. Big hat,
big head, I guess, big man
too. But Jack made his hat as well as B. B.
King's. When I went in there he
said:
"Hell, I know you. I've read Last of the Moccasins." I had selected a
hat and
he said "it's yours." Then he showed me an antique hat making machine
he had
found in Paris. The other day though I tried to talk him out of an old
Beralatino
(sp?) Italian hat, he knew I spotted it the minute I came in the
door. I
was riding on short money, so I had to settle for a new blue hitman
hat. In
fact I just sent him some original manuscripts, books, etc. trying to
make
him feel bad about the price, but put a check in the package just in
case.
We'll see how it all comes out. Hat Man
Jack is the guy to see in
Wichita. We went to some old blues clubs and some
hippy joints where I took
Ginsberg
to Moody's Skid Row Beanery. And photographer Robert Frank to the
Hotel
Eaton. Pat O'Connor cruises the beat.
Be sure and contact him if you
go
there. Pat filled me in on the Salina
thing. The thermostat was
controlled. Sorry I missed you, but we passed Richard
White in the Flint
Hills.
He was going to Wichita as we were driving to Lawrence and didn't know
it
until we returned home. Trips, trips,
trips.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:47:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Is this the Charles that I just
added to my link page.
In a
message dated 97-06-02 00:44:39 EDT, you write:
<<
I will be in San Francisco in one week.
It this is Charles, can you
recommend any particular sites I should take
in.
>>
I just
heard that Jack Micheline is down and out in a hotel there. He'd be a
wonderful
guide. I'll have to do some digging to get his address to the
backbeat
channel to you. May be someone else on the list could help you
faster.
Last time I was there S. Clay Wilson took me in tow for 4 days. I
lost my
best black jacket, my Al Capone hat, and my grey Mexican boots that
fit me
like a glove that I had rocked and rolled in for 10 years. A fellow
starting
the SF Poetry Museum wanted to boots, but Glenn Todd says they are
still
in his closet with the whole damn story. Sometimes SF is so cool it
doesn't
come out at all. In November Al Cohen
of the old Haight Asbury
Oracle
came to my reading that was aborted periodically when S. Clay couldn't
stand
still and Dave Moe asked if he could read with me. Worked out fine.
Then
Wilson said is this a poet that you just stand up there and turn on and
off.
Something like that. Always has been. Sights appear, change,
metamorphize,
reappear, sift through the fog in apparitions. You can always
go to
City Lights and leave a message to yourself with a zombie.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:59:39 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Old Road
James:
Probably
you could get Glenn in a bitchy mood by saying I said he doesn't
understand
his computer. It's too bad because he
has a piece of history he
won't
come off of. He wrote me a nice letter I have to answer. He says
Richard
White said his computer and his penis are his best friends, but I
think
only his computer is. I'll give you a taste of the first paragraph of
his
letter talking about when we took Ginsberg to Chances R:
"Shoo-bop-tee-bog,
my baby, seems like a mighty long time. That's what the
young
gays were dancing to in Wichita in '63 when we went to that bar on East
Douglas. All in a row, moving their feet in perfect
unison, kick, turn,
sway,
dip, kick, high pert buns, long tapered legs, such pretty precision,
such
innocent harmony. Who would have thought that chorus line would soon be
demolished
at the Fillmore by the California free-form with its sanky locks
and
epileptic shudderings and total self-absorption? Seems like a might long
time.
Might
long. It was very exciting and interesting to see you again. Running
around
all over town like city buses. Just like old times. And meeting S.
Clar,
that dynamo producing chaos. I found
after you left that now is truly
the
"old times". My body ached and creaked, my head was fuzzy and fatigues.
I
sank
into pillows for days. But I wouldn't trade that visit for weeks of
serenity."
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:09:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: meeting W.S.B. to ben on 5/3/197
In a
message dated 97-06-02 06:35:14 EDT, you write:
<<
Why did you e-mail my mom and not me?
>>
Lena:
Oh I
don't know. And you raised a good point about the Woody Guthrie lyrics
and you
being so young. Sometimes I think my brain has gone numb. I bet you'd
make a
good lawyer too.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:12:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: list in fighting and fbi
MC:
I'm
sure they're already lurking. Always have been.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:03:38 -0400
Reply-To: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: I'm outta here
Signing
off folx, too much work and a new Strat to
noodle
around with. Not enough time to sort
through
the
insanity of this list anymore. Anyone
who needs
to get
in touch with me, you know where I am.
I will
be back to test the waters sometime later in
the
summer.
Have a
great summer everyone!!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:19:43 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes
In a
message dated 97-06-02 09:56:56 EDT, you write:
<<
Jaynes' consciousness evolution
still evolves toward who knows what the DEA
will do? >>
Always
good to remember that the pharmaceutical cartel has to be as great as
the oil
cartel. And who owns them. Both the legal and the illegal controllers
of the
economy. Follow Chomsky's advice and
read the back pages and the
primary
sources not the front pages and the propagandists. That's why I don'
buy the
Times no more. Thanks for your great
hot web. Did James get in
touch
with you in Columbus?
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:25:40 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Booooring!
Am I
the only one bored by the Beat-l, tonight?
God,
let's do bring in the FBI! Bring in the
Marines.... somebody, make
something
happen!
Jerry
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:40:30 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Booooring!
Comments:
To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Jerry
Cimino wrote:
>
> Am
I the only one bored by the Beat-l, tonight?
>
>
God, let's do bring in the FBI! Bring
in the Marines.... somebody, make
>
something happen!
>
>
Jerry
well, i
re-read burroughs language-virus/electronic revolution thing
today
and was thinking about it quite a bit.
it seems the virus
particularly
relates to a particular form of temporal consciousness
heightened
by particular forms of causal-calculative symbolic action.
i'm not
certain that i'm willing to jump into the boat of this being
physiological
yet. it is a big difference to say
language is a virus
and
language functions like a virus. the
latter makes more sense to
me. one wonders how William is able to jump
outside the biological
constraints
if the relationship is not to some degree figurative.
and
with this going on in my brain and a bit of heidegger, k. burke, and
cassirer
twitching around here and there, your post came over the wire
and i
felt a soundtrack undertoning my hodgepodge of thought that was
the
halls of montezuma and the battle hymn of the republic sung in
harmony
with row-row-row your both in 3/4 time on the 3rd recorder
leaving
you with your choice of first or second recorder and meaning
that i
am now not only the devil and also god.
and then i was thinking
about
the whole notion of the one-god-universe piece in Western Lands
and on
spare ass annie and i was wondering about the notion of a
one-devil-universe
as well. and then i sat back and
noticed that i
actually
had a second or two to think
and let
my wandering mind wander around a bit and perhaps wonder cuz i
wasn't
tempted by the zillions of messages flashing on my computer
screen. and i kind of enjoyed it.
plus, i
find charley's road stories anything but boring. let's give him
plenty
of bandwidth to tell many a tall tale of the road most recently
taken.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:57:18 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a list
In a
message dated 97-06-02 18:47:03 EDT, you write:
<<
Howl was a flame. Ginsberg was flaming
decades before the internet. >>
And I
was just going to reveal my plot to poison Ginsberg.
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:13:56 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a listener
In a
message dated 97-06-02 20:23:22 EDT, you write:
<<
n a way I agree with you. I also
wondered if anyone out there has any
quotes about what Ginsberg thought of the FBI
>>
Here's
a little tibit I've always wondered about. When Allen and Neal moved
in at
gough St., I wrote a poem that began"Hey man, when you're swinging/ way
out
there alone/ doing the rubty rub in wilderness...etc. I forget the rest
but at
that time published it in a little mag called NOW along with a poem of
McClure's
and Ginsberg's, who had just returned from India. M& G had been
flaming
each other and this was their make up page. Anyway, years later after
the pad
had been abandoned, its last resident got a new pad through
redevelopment
or whatever it was called in S.F. I went into the basement of
his new
pad and there were dozens of holes in the walls whre it looked like
electronic
equiptment had been yanked out. On the walls were written those
lines
from my poem. I assume someone had been listening,and possibly through
boredom
or enlightenment had scrolled those words on the basement walls of
the new
pad. What does all this mean? I don't know but I can corrroborate the
story.
One explanation may be that they listen all the time...probably even
use my
tax money to pay some low level listener. Or there may be other
explanations..but
what? That is why i rant when I damn please, but try not to
hurt
anyones's feelings (too much).
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:17:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Subject
Hello
Richard:
I
picked up a bunch of used lps in North Carolina last weekend. I had to
restick
a few price tags. You know what I mean. I got a mint Iggy Pop for $3.
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:21:38 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Welcome Back Charles
Hello
Charles,
It
sounds like you had a great time. Did you get a chance to see
Catfish
McDaris? I got a letter from him saying you might stop by.
Well,
with all this talk of FBI shit, I decided to pen this poem
for the
suits:
PUTTING
ALL COSTS ASIDE, THE SHOW MUST GO ON
After
being followed
by a
scribbling mustache
carrying
clipboard, dressed
in grey
flannel; wearing a sporty
but
"fasionably correct," bulletproof
vest
and whistling: ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS,
the
Psycho Poet exploded over a billboard
advertisement.
Bold italics and screaming maxims
poured
forth from each and every orifice,
leaving
him quite exhausted. The ghost
of Francois
de La Rochefoucauld stood in the bleachers
cheering
him on and crying: CURTAINS! CURTAINS for
the
poet. Scheduled to read within minutes,
he
suddenly realized that his number was up.
Richard
Houff
Pariah
Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:30:18 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: The Rocky Horror Picture Show
June
2, 1997
Diane
Carter writes:
> I
am in total agreement that 90% of the posts in the last month or so
>
should not have been here. I guess what
I am saying is that all of us
>
seriously concerned with sharing ideas on a daily basis, make an
>
agreement that we will only discuss beat things intelligently, with no
>
shouting, namecalling or harrassment. I
think it is important,
>however,
that we be able to maintain a thought flow by repling (re:ing)
>to
individual posts on the list. Why don't
we start now by refusing to
>reply
to flames and eventually maybe we will all have the community we
>want
to share ideas and Bill at CUNY can decide that we don't have to
>type
in that very long beat address every time we want to talk.
>
> DC
>
Dear
Diane:
I only hope that some of you realize
how painful this whole thing
has
been for me too, and that a good part of my own pain is the knowledge
that my
presence here has interrupted one of the best, if not the best
ongoing
Beat forum in the world.
That knowledge made me ready to sign
off almost every day, and
sometimes
I still think I should have, before things got as bad as they did.
When I signed onto the Beat-List, I
had no idea it was going to turn
into
the Rocky Horror Picture Show, that people would be talking about
putting
my face on dart boards and I'd end up being accused of actual crimes
and
getting threats emailed privately to me.
I accept the guilt for being a hothead
and letting people push my
buttons
too easily and sometimes trying too hard to prove a point.
But I also know that what has happened
to me here is no accident.
And if
Dave Rhaesa wants to yell "conspiracy theory" again, so be it.
I know for a fact that I'm the only
person in the world who now has
LEGAL
STANDING to take on John Sampas in court, and to challenge what he is
doing
with Jack Kerouac's archive.
Many other people can wish me well,
can say they agree with my goal,
but I'm
THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN STAND UP IN COURT AND OPPOSE MR. SAMPAS'S
SCATTERING
OF KEROUAC'S PAPERS. I have that
standing because Jan Kerouac
made me
her literary executor.
The only other person who could have had standing to fight Mr.
Sampas
was Jan's exhusband John Lash, and he gave up that right when he made
a deal
with Mr. Sampas shortly after Jan died.
But since the deal has not
yet
gone into effect (it goes into effect when John Lash dismisses the
Florida
lawsuit, and so far the Albuquerque court has denied Mr. Lash the
power
to do that), there is still the possibility that Mr. Lash will change
his
mind. I'm sure certain people are
worried about just such a thing
happening.
One of the ways to keep that from
happening is to make sure Gerald
Nicosia
is discredited every day of his life.
The four people on this List who have
launched the fiercest attacks
on me:
Phil Chaput and Paul Maher (in first place); Rod Anstee (in second
place);
and Attila Gyensis (a weak third) all have spent time with John
Sampas. At least one of them (Mr. Anstee) had
business dealings with Mr.
Sampas. The other three live in Lowell, Mr. Sampas's
hometown, and he
takes--at
minimum--a friendly interest in their Kerouac activities: the
Lowell
Celebrates Kerouac! committee they have all belonged to at various
times,
Mr. Gyensis's DHARMA BEAT magazine, and Mr. Maher's KEROUAC QUARTERLY.
I leave you to draw your own
conclusions--as it should be.
I'm in the hot seat, and I've drawn
lightning bolts. And the people
near me
are getting burned. I'm truly sorry
about that. Truly sorry.
If you want me to leave the list, let
me know. I'm willing to let
the
majority rule on that. Tell Levi and
all the others to come back and
cast
their vote.
P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that
I finished the first draft of
MEMORY
BABE, the anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
Ginsberg's
birthday.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:43:31 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Rocky Horror Picture Show
Comments:
To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
>
> P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that
I finished the first draft of
>
MEMORY BABE, the anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
>
Ginsberg's birthday.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
happy
anniversary and i mean it. the book is
excellent. i'm slowly
soaking
it in.
i agree
with you on more than it may appear just disagree on more than
it may
appear as well. oh well.
hope
that you have a pleasant evening and celebrate a great anniversary
in your
life. also hope that the time is slowly
going to free up to do
work on
what sounds to be an INCREDIBLY significant book on Vietnam
Veterans.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:46:12 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cranial Guitar keeps Kaufman in
tune....
>In
a message dated 97-05-30 09:58:11 EDT, Gerry Nicosia wrote:
>
><<
let me announce that the poetry
>
collection of the late Bob Kaufman's which I edited, CRANIAL GUITAR (Coffee
>
House Press), has just won the prestigious PEN CENTER USA West 1997 Literary
>
Award in Poetry. >>
>
>In
honor of this acheivement by argumentative but very talented editor Mr.
>Nicosia,
>let
me offer to Beat-L members a copy of Cranial Guitar at a special discount
>price
of $10.95 (cover price $12.95) plus free shipping in USA (foreign
>folks:
please add $2.00 for shipping via surface) - Offer good while supply
>lasts.
Email me to order or for more information .....
>
>Jeffrey
>Water
Row Books
>waterrw@aol.com
Jeffery,
I just
ordered a t-shirt and a poster earlier today--rather yesterday.
could
you add a copy of CRANIAL GUITAR?
Thanks,
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for
items stolen from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic
& Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:37:08 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: t-shirts /how ironic
hi all:
i hope
that all will commit to buying their t-shirts as promised. (jeff:
there
are folks on boho list who still want their shirts; do you want me to
forward
message there for them? you probably have address anyway.
and
speaking of address books: i've spent a bloody hour this morning tryin
to make
an address book entry to eliminate the copy and paste method of
posting
to group at large.
both of
these statements tie into how ironic this all is, as the idea was
born
out of a sense of community.
sadly
mc
jeff,
the check's in the mail. many many thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:38:05 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: to gerry re: bullies in general
In-Reply-To: <339392E3.52DF@midusa.net>
>Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
>>
>> P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that
I finished the first draft of
>>
MEMORY BABE, the anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
>>
Ginsberg's birthday.
>> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
>
congrats,
gerry, and i look forward as well to yr vietnam project.
dont
let the bullies get you down.
if we
were all out in the schoolyard, the bullies could be made short work
of, as
bullism so often develops when recognition of one's own insecurities
far
outweigh the achievements of another, and give rise to the inarticulate
bellowings
we were barraged by over the last few weeks or months...
the
bully rod pushed ron whitehead off this list ( & a few others, but
mainly
rod).
just
feeling sad,
and btw
gerry, yr memory babe is the undisputed best bio, in my own humble
opinion.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:20:23 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Happy Birthday ALLEN GINSBERG !!!!!
Don't
want to make this too long or wordy or whatever. in the many
eulogies
in the spring a common thread was that AG would be with us
eternally
in memories. don't know who started
that idea. don't know if
i
believe it or even if it's true. but it
sounds like a NICE idea. So
part of
that remembrance seems to be a
Surprise
Cypber-Birthday Party for Allen Ginsberg.
It will
take all our energies and finger playing with the imaginary cake
and who
will will decide the number of candles -- all forms of ruckus
celebration
is possible.
let the
celebration begin !!!!!!!!!!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:34:14 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg and FBI
I found
this somewhere on the net about
Ginsberg
and the FBI.
Undoubtedly
they'll be at the birthday party. It
might be a surprise to
Allen
but not to them.
Commenting
on the FBI's activities in the literary political arena,
Ginsberg
said, "Why did the FBI
lay off
the Mafia and instead bust the alternative media, scapegoating
Leroi
Jones, ganging up on
Jane
Fonda, Tom Hayden, Martin Luther King, Jr., antiwar hero David
Dellinger,
even putting me
on a
'Dangerous Subversive' Internal Security list in 1965 - the same
year I
was kicked out of
Havana
and Prague for talking and chanting back to the Communist police?
'The
fox condemns the
trap,
not himself,' as Blake wrote in Proverbs in Hell. "
I don't
know how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
called)
into my message. I'm on Netscape (if
that helps any government
agents
or beats who might assist me ... :)
I love
Allen Ginsberg
let
that be recorded in heaven's
unchangeable
heart.
just
popped off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
and
what some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to the
party.
Happy
Birthday to you....
Happy
Happy
Happy Sad
the line
within
the
between of the
IT
one guesses now
and then.....
IT
Birthday to you
IT
Birthday to you
Birthday
(i'll
let someone else begin playing there if they like)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:57:28 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Apologies to Chaput & List
Comments:
To: luckfry@netway1.mdc.net
In a
post I made a few days ago, I made the mistake of attributing a comment
someone
made about "faggots" to Phil Chaput.
I later
learned from a conversation I had with another Beat-L member, that I
was
wrong about who sent the "faggot" statement. I apology to Phil and
all
the
other members on the list for my error.
Sincerely,
JW
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:59:20 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: List changes
Dear
Beat-L listmembers and administrators:
I wish
to go on record as being adamantly opposed to the list change
posted
by Fred Bogin (see below).
If this
new policy is not immediately reversed I will have every reason
to
unsubscribe immediately, and will encourage everyone else on the list
to do
so as well.
I do
not see this new policy as something that will kill the list.
I SEE
IT AS THE DEATH OF THE LIST.
Thank
you,
John
Hasbrouck
Chicago
Fred
Bogin wrote:
>Hi
folks,
>Excuse
me while I pull on my hip boots to wade in here.
>Effective
immediately, all replies to postings on beat-l will go to the
>original
sender, NOT the list, unless otherwise specified.
>fred
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:45:57 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Rocky Horror Picture Show
Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
>
> If
you want me to leave the list, let me know.
I'm willing to let
>
the majority rule on that. Tell Levi
and all the others to come back and
>
cast their vote.
> P.S. It was 17 years ago tonight that
I finished the first draft of
>
MEMORY BABE, the anniversary of Gerard Kerouac's death, and the eve of
>
Ginsberg's birthday.
> Best always, Gerry Nicosia
Gerry,
Congrats
on the anniversary! I'm sorry it's at a
time when things are
obviously
so emotional. I personally do not want
you to leave the list.
I do want you to stop rehashing the same
points about estate matters.
Pursue
the matter in the courts. Report on new
developments or rulings.
And, in the meantime, talk to us about Jack,
talk to us about Jan, tell
us from
personal experience what it was like to write the book, tell us
about
some of experiences of people on the 300 tapes, we can't hear for
ourselves,
share the wealth of knowledge that you have that we don't.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:23:16 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Happy Birthday Allen
We're
celebrating Allen's birthday with a small exhibit in the library.
I hope
to see some of you at the reading in Paterson next Sunday.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:28:33 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: sad state of affairs
Marie
Countryman wrote:
>JH
in chicago: i dig yr project but cant agree with you here.
>it
seems like 90% of posts are taken up w/name droppers, travel excusion
>more
relevantly private (like so and so will be here tomorrwo, etc) as well
>as
name calling best suited to filthy gas station doors, than here.
>i
have become disillusioned that some of the movers and shakers of the beat
>renaissance
now choose to rail and flail. reminds me too much of JK in
>florida
before hemmoraging to death on bathroom floor.
>i'm
so disillusioned,
>and
this is coming from someone whose very nature is psychotically optimistic.
>sad
sad sad.
>mc
Marie:
Disillusionment
can be quite healthy. It is, after all, the removal of
one's
illusions. And however cherished these illusions are, they
nonetheless
are what they are.
You
mention my project, and I assume you refer to my Chronological Beat
Reading
Project that I began about three years ago, in which I attempted
to read
the novels, correspondence, memiors, poems and bios of Kerouac,
Ginsberg,
Burroughs and Cassady (and their closest associates)
chronologically,
that is, year by year, month by month, week by week,
day by
day and sometimes hour by hour, (like when I find two letters
with
the same date and have to determine by content which was written
earlier
in the day).
I'd
like to tell you where I'm at with that, if I may.
The
project is naive. It is non-scholarly. It is for kicks. Literary
Kicks.
And it is one of the most interesting and aesthetically
gratifying
reading experiences I've ever had. I speak as a common reader
- and
one who is not particularly well-read (but hey, I am at the very
least a
Devoted Reader. I mean, I own Mortimer Adler's desk and reading
chair.
I read as if my life depended on it, dammit.)
Frankly
the project is on a haitus which may last several years. I put
it on
hold when I learned (from the editor himself) that Ginsberg's
Selected
Letters won't be out for a long time. After two years of
intensive
reading which involved the constant juggling of 20 or so Beat
volumes
at a time while sitting at Dr. Adler's desk, I only made it up
to the
early summer of 1953. But ya know...
I too
am disillusioned. Gone is my popular conception of the Beats as
liberated
literary saints. At 35, I look back at myself as the
19-year-old
undergrad who's life was changed by ON THE ROAD and think of
how
innocent and romantic I was. And I think of Jack Kerouac. I think of
Dean
Mo-ri-ar-ty.
But I
learned some things from the project. I learned what Ginsberg
meant
when he said in the film KEROUAC, <He (Jack) could write ALL
DAY!>
I learned what Burroughs meant when he said Jack was a REAL
WRITER.
I mean, shit, 80% of my chronological reading was Kerouac. The
others
were barely beginning. With half the population nowadays calling
themselves
writers it behooves one to consider Jack as Writer, sitting
in the
corner of Burroughs' flat in Tangier writing longhand, asking not
to be
disturbed...speed-typing on bennies...cranking out the first
scroll
of OTR on caffiene, no doubt breaking only to pee, shouting for
sandwiches
from his new wife whom he would leave almost the moment the
manuscript
was done.
But
there's another side to the coin - Kerouac the egomaniac, who, in
self-conscious
letters to Neal, speaks to Me, John Hasbrouck, saying
<yes,
dear reader> and going on like he's God's gift to writing, which,
despite
the sentiments of many of his belated readers, He Was Not.
(While
reading MAGGIE CASSADY, I remember thinking *If he says REDBRICK
one
more time I'm going to throw this book out the window!!*)
Actually,
Marie, I'm tempted state that my reading project ended up
being a
Grand Exercise In Disillusionment. It was like an enormous
psychic
purge. I AM NOT BEAT. NOT ANYMORE - IF I EVER WAS (despite
100,000+
miles on the road as a musician and 15 years of constant
intoxication
which ended in '90). As much as I love those guys,
reflecting
on the powerful and emotional inspiration I felt (and
continue
to feel), physically, in my belly, when I read them sometimes
(like
that bit in OTR which JK actually took from a letter of his to
somebody
where he writes about dissolving into fantasy while walking
down a
street in SF and peering into the window of a bakery(?) and
making
eye contact an old woman whom he percieved to have been his
mother
centuries ago and...you know the passage...and his ego-self
evaporates
into 10,000 mystical droplets of air...yes...that's Jack The
Writer
I know...fully revised and tightly-knit prose calculated for
maximum
impact...albeit originating in a spontaneous burst prose
transcribed
from the image before his mind's eye.) As much as I love
them, I
try to maintain a perspective, as they say...
I'd
better stop, even though I haven't even mentioned my thoughts on
reading
Allen, Bill and Neal chronologically. Some other time,
perhaps...
I'm
reading Genet. You?
As
ever,
John
Hasbrouck
Chicago
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:16:07 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: When is a list not a listener
Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
> One explanation may be that they listen all
the time...probably even
>
use my tax money to pay some low level listener. Or there may be other
>
explanations..but what? That is why i rant when I damn please, but try not to
>
hurt anyones's feelings (too much).
> C.
Plymell
Sounds
like a damn good philosophy to me.
Welcome back! On sort of a
side
note, I was reading Time Magazine this week (can just hear Ginsberg
in
America, saying, "Are you going to let your emotional life be run by
Time
Magazine? I'm obesessed by Time Magazine.
I read it every week.
Its
cover stares at me every time I slink by the corner candystore...")
Anyway,
one of the articles is on "No Privacy on the Web" and how anyone
can
find out anything about anyone if they only know where to look. An
example
they give is Glen Robert's Stalker Home Page (which he made to
get
people to understand the real meaning of a world-wide information
database. There you can look up anything about anyone
by simply plugging
in a
piece of info about them and searching.
One of the things that's
there
is access to the FBI database. I wanted
to type in Allen Ginsberg
and see
what comes up, but I haven't had time.
If anyone is interested
in
wasting some time, the address is http://www.glr.com/stalk.html or you
can buy
the latest copy of Time Magazine.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:40:53 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: sad state of affairs
JWHasbrouck
wrote:
>
>
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>
>JH in chicago: i dig yr project but cant agree with you here.
>
>it seems like 90% of posts are taken up w/name droppers, travel excusion
>
>more relevantly private (like so and so will be here tomorrwo, etc) as well
>
>as name calling best suited to filthy gas station doors, than here.
>
>i have become disillusioned that some of the movers and shakers of the beat
>
>renaissance now choose to rail and flail. reminds me too much of JK in
>
>florida before hemmoraging to death on bathroom floor.
>
>i'm so disillusioned,
>
>and this is coming from someone whose very nature is psychotically
optimistic.
>
>sad sad sad.
>
>
>mc
>
>
Marie:
>
Disillusionment can be quite healthy. It is, after all, the removal of
>
one's illusions. And however cherished these illusions are, they
>
nonetheless are what they are.
>
>
You mention my project, and I assume you refer to my Chronological Beat
>
Reading Project that I began about three years ago, in which I attempted
> to
read the novels, correspondence, memiors, poems and bios of Kerouac,
>
Ginsberg, Burroughs and Cassady (and their closest associates)
>
chronologically, that is, year by year, month by month, week by week,
>
day by day and sometimes hour by hour, (like when I find two letters
>
with the same date and have to determine by content which was written
>
earlier in the day).
>
>
I'd like to tell you where I'm at with that, if I may.
>
>
The project is naive. It is non-scholarly. It is for kicks. Literary
>
Kicks. And it is one of the most interesting and aesthetically
>
gratifying reading experiences I've ever had. I speak as a common reader
> -
and one who is not particularly well-read (but hey, I am at the very
>
least a Devoted Reader. I mean, I own Mortimer Adler's desk and reading
>
chair. I read as if my life depended on it, dammit.)
>
>
Frankly the project is on a haitus which may last several years. I put
> it
on hold when I learned (from the editor himself) that Ginsberg's
>
Selected Letters won't be out for a long time. After two years of
>
intensive reading which involved the constant juggling of 20 or so Beat
>
volumes at a time while sitting at Dr. Adler's desk, I only made it up
> to
the early summer of 1953. But ya know...
>
> I
too am disillusioned. Gone is my popular conception of the Beats as
>
liberated literary saints. At 35, I look back at myself as the
>
19-year-old undergrad who's life was changed by ON THE ROAD and think of
>
how innocent and romantic I was. And I think of Jack Kerouac. I think of
>
Dean Mo-ri-ar-ty.
>
>
But I learned some things from the project. I learned what Ginsberg
>
meant when he said in the film KEROUAC, <He (Jack) could write ALL
>
DAY!> I learned what Burroughs meant when he said Jack was a REAL
>
WRITER. I mean, shit, 80% of my chronological reading was Kerouac. The
>
others were barely beginning. With half the population nowadays calling
>
themselves writers it behooves one to consider Jack as Writer, sitting
> in
the corner of Burroughs' flat in Tangier writing longhand, asking not
> to
be disturbed...speed-typing on bennies...cranking out the first
>
scroll of OTR on caffiene, no doubt breaking only to pee, shouting for
>
sandwiches from his new wife whom he would leave almost the moment the
>
manuscript was done.
>
>
But there's another side to the coin - Kerouac the egomaniac, who, in
>
self-conscious letters to Neal, speaks to Me, John Hasbrouck, saying
>
<yes, dear reader> and going on like he's God's gift to writing, which,
>
despite the sentiments of many of his belated readers, He Was Not.
>
(While reading MAGGIE CASSADY, I remember thinking *If he says REDBRICK
>
one more time I'm going to throw this book out the window!!*)
>
>
Actually, Marie, I'm tempted state that my reading project ended up
>
being a Grand Exercise In Disillusionment. It was like an enormous
>
psychic purge. I AM NOT BEAT. NOT ANYMORE - IF I EVER WAS (despite
>
100,000+ miles on the road as a musician and 15 years of constant
>
intoxication which ended in '90). As much as I love those guys,
>
reflecting on the powerful and emotional inspiration I felt (and
>
continue to feel), physically, in my belly, when I read them sometimes
>
(like that bit in OTR which JK actually took from a letter of his to
>
somebody where he writes about dissolving into fantasy while walking
>
down a street in SF and peering into the window of a bakery(?) and
>
making eye contact an old woman whom he percieved to have been his
>
mother centuries ago and...you know the passage...and his ego-self
>
evaporates into 10,000 mystical droplets of air...yes...that's Jack The
>
Writer I know...fully revised and tightly-knit prose calculated for
>
maximum impact...albeit originating in a spontaneous burst prose
>
transcribed from the image before his mind's eye.) As much as I love
>
them, I try to maintain a perspective, as they say...
>
>
I'd better stop, even though I haven't even mentioned my thoughts on
>
reading Allen, Bill and Neal chronologically. Some other time,
>
perhaps...
>
>
I'm reading Genet. You?
>
> As
ever,
>
John Hasbrouck
>
Chicago
This is
completely unrelated but still related.
Today i thought damn
i'd
like to know when these events took place as much as i'd like to
know
when D-Day was. I'd be really
interested in knowing if there is
some
form of Beat-L/Generation Calendar that highlights in a few words
significant
events in the Beat Generation.
It
would be chronological - but not chronological in that it would
constrain
things to one year at a time. I don't
buy calendars often and
rarely
care what day it is, but i think that i would buy something like
that.
Perhaps
that is another project for Jeffrey Weinberg .... :) I see the
web-site
is coming along.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:47:47 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg birthday poem (was Ginsberg
& FBI)
RACE
--- wrote:
>
> I
love Allen Ginsberg
>
let that be recorded in heaven's
>
unchangeable heart.
>
>
just popped off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
>
and what some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to
the
>
party.
>
>
Happy Birthday to you....
>
Happy
>
Happy
> Happy Sad
> the line
> within
> the
> between of the
> IT
> one guesses now
> and then.....
> IT
Birthday to you
> IT
Birthday to you
>
> Birthday
>
>
(i'll let someone else begin playing there if they like)
Birthday for us
what is It for you?
you now in timeless eternity?
words here
stronger than ever
Do you miss?
miss city
manuscripts
words of Blake
corner store grass sun clouds
your first sunflower
cock
loves
The between of IT
heaven Nirvana paradise
union of the soul
and IT
I will celebrate you
today
words
soul
triumphant
(keep
adding on)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:11:47 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments:
To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33941D56.6477@midusa.net>
As a
newbie to this list, THIS is why I subscribed:
On Tue,
3 Jun 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> I
found this somewhere on the net about
>
>
Ginsberg and the FBI.
>
>
Undoubtedly they'll be at the birthday party.
It might be a surprise to
>
Allen but not to them.
>
>
Commenting on the FBI's activities in the literary political arena,
>
Ginsberg said, "Why did the FBI
>
lay off the Mafia and instead bust the alternative media, scapegoating
>
Leroi Jones, ganging up on
>
Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, Martin Luther King, Jr., antiwar hero David
>
Dellinger, even putting me
> on
a 'Dangerous Subversive' Internal Security list in 1965 - the same
>
year I was kicked out of
>
Havana and Prague for talking and chanting back to the Communist police?
>
'The fox condemns the
>
trap, not himself,' as Blake wrote in Proverbs in Hell. "
>
> I
don't know how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
>
called) into my message. I'm on
Netscape (if that helps any government
>
agents or beats who might assist me ... :)
>
> I
love Allen Ginsberg
>
let that be recorded in heaven's
>
unchangeable heart.
>
>
just popped off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
>
and what some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to
the
>
party.
>
>
Happy Birthday to you....
>
Happy
>
Happy
> Happy Sad
> the line
> within
> the
> between of the
> IT
> one guesses now
> and then.....
> IT
Birthday to you
> IT
Birthday to you
>
> Birthday
>
>
(i'll let someone else begin playing there if they like)
David,
you could have typed the URL in, along with everything else.
Would
have been nice. (The birthday song left
me a bit flat but hey...
Great
Post! Wish they were all like this.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:05:45 -0500
Reply-To: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "E.j.C."
<beat@SKY.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments:
To: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970603120827.15940D-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
Does
anyone have that msg from a while back about the info you can
purchase
from the FBI and CIA on 'The A. Ginsberg Files'? If someone could
either
send it to me or post it to the list, i'd appreciate it. Thanx!
-j-EnnIfEr
c.
beat@sky.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:09:15 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Hey, Mr. T-shirt man!
Dear
Jeffrey:
How
soon do you need the money for the t-shirts?
Sorry to bother the list
with
this, but I don't have his e-mail address readily available.
Diane.
(Homza)
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:07:34 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments:
To: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.GSO.3.93.970603120335.5703A-100000@sky.net>
On Tue,
3 Jun 1997, E.j.C. wrote:
>
Does anyone have that msg from a while back about the info you can
>
purchase from the FBI and CIA on 'The A. Ginsberg Files'?
Yes,
actually I sent away for both a few weeks ago. Each may cost up to $25
but I
haven't yet heard from them -- I was going to make an announcement on
the
list if/when I get the stuff that anyone who would settle for
photocopies
could get them from myself for the cost of postage and
photocopies.
The
addresses to send to are:
FBI
Freedom of Information Act Unit
Federal
Bureau of Investigation
9th
& Pennsylvania Avenue N.W.
Washington,
DC 20535 USA
Lee
Strickland
Central
Intelligence Agency
Office
of Information & Privacy
Washington,
DC 20505 USA
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:37:48 -0400
Reply-To: Hpark4@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
The
answer to the question about why the FBI pursued people like Allen while
going
easy on many elements of organized crime is very simple.
J.
Edgar Hoover ran the FBI with an iorn fist.
He was "in bed" with
organized
crime, they used to let him win at the horse races (a great passion
of
Hoover's) and they probably could blackmail Hoover about his
homosexuality. Hoover was obsessed by communists, real and
imagined. So, in
his
very twisted mind, people like Allen were threats to the country while
organized
crime figures (who were definately not communists!) were OK. There
are
many good bios of Hoover that are well worth reading.
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:42:25 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
Comments:
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Michael
Stutz wrote:
>
> On
Tue, 3 Jun 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> I don't know how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
>
> called) into my message. I'm on
Netscape (if that helps any government
>
> agents or beats who might assist me ... :)
>
>
see if you can cut and paste it with the shift and arrow keys or your mouse.
>
shift-del cuts, shift-ins inserts. if not, just type it -- as long as it
>
looks like this
>
>
http://somecomputer/someresource-or-whatever
>
>
with the http:// or ftp:// or whatever in front and the whole thing like
>
that, everyone can see it and all the software can interpret it correctly.
A
special note to Sisyphus. It also would
have been easy for you to do
a damn
net search. I suffer from anxiety
related health problems and
the
type of technical stuff which i have no clue about and fear could
blow my
computer up that you're asking me to do sends me near the edge.
i hope
that you're happy. i'm very sorry that
it isn't in the fancy
blue .
i'm
also sorry that i turned my computer back on.
i was only hoping to
recognize
Ginsberg's birthday. Not get a bunch of
comments about what a
technological
idiot i am.
I know
that i am a technological idiot. i'm so
stressed right now that
i can't
even figure out what i'll have to do to get my computer back to
normal. but i have to do that so i can sign back off
the thing.
i hope
you enjoy the files.
david
rhaesa
if
there is an easy way to make it in blue so it is easy will somebody
please
teach me backchannel at a kindergarten level.
at this point i
unbelievably
regret that i shared any information about this in the
first
place.
you say
good post. this is exactly what you
want to see. and then you
bitch
at me for not doing it right. well i
tried and i hope you have a
good
day ... i won't. i'll have to take
medication which could probably
turn me
into a zombie for some time.
happy
birthday Ginsberg. i hope you're happy
and i wish i was with you.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/ginsberg-fbi.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:33:25 -0400
Reply-To: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes (fwd)
On June
2, 1997 Charles Plymell responded:
>
Michael:
>
... Please put that last post on the beat-l. There are a few
>
people on there who want to take it further and they deserve your
>
input...
Yes I
did three of those Cornix Java scripts at:
www.buchenroth.com/cornixplymell.html
www.buchenroth.com/cornixoxy.html
www.buchenroth.com/cornixcommittee.html
or you
can just go to Charles' web site at
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
and those files' links reside near the
top. I
used my favorite line from "Last of the Moccasins" *Oxy-Biotic will
make
you neurotic* in one that I set at 1000 wpm, max'd flash'n. I also
made
one out of one of Charles' most recent poems, "Committee on Poetry"
he
wrote
April 5, 1997 etc. and that poem he suggested "Be Bop in Kansas."
BTW, I
listed ISGS' site's url wrong, Correct URL:
http://www.crl.com/~isgs/isgshome.html
In
case. I also have a number of G.S. sites linked on my CELM web site
"Literary
Links."
I agree
Jaynes really got me ta think'n! Look'n back now, that evolution
idea
just fits with all these other things I had read and think about. So
I
reread Jaynes earlier this year. Have you read about David Bohm's
implicate/explicate
order? Or the idea of a holographic universe. Or F
David
Peat's interpretations of Bohm. With Bohm being a physicist and all
his
material needs someone like Betrand Russell to explain it. That's
what
Peat does for Bohm. They even co-wrote a couple books right there
before
Bohm died. Another excellent biographical source (it even includes
Jaynes'
book) is Michael Talbot's "The Holographic Universe." Have you
read
that book? Bohm describes a point of
view where
electrons
exist as alive as humans! Why not? One exists as the other.
In other
words, Bohms writes of rocks existing alive like us. He
considered
the EPR Paradox as an example of one of our first peeks into
his
implicate order. If we listen hard enuf, rocks have much to say. "Get
off me
you asshole!" for beginners perhaps... Wm S Burroughs has
that
talking asshole in "Naked Lunch!" And in my opinion, that asshole
did
more than just talk, it was a comedian! A real standup asshole...
I had
read once where at one time becuz Jaynes had tenure at Princeton, and
the
Pillars of Tradition couldn't so readily Leary him on outta there,
they
did stuff like assign him office space beneath a stairwell with this
real
neat older Janitor who then got Jaynes think'n about some other
stuff.
I don't know if that really happened. But I guess they did work
hard to
get rid of him just becuz of his Bicamerial Mind and Evolution of
Consciousness
book. I agree with ya, the psych types couldn't deal with
that!
But it
makes such perfect sense! The G.S connection of processes
and
change or evolution or of constantly changing meaning as well
as
finite lexicons producing infinite sentence combination possibilities
(one
rock spoke; two rocks spoke; three rocks spoke;
one-million
rocks spoke; a big ass boulder screamed for all to shut-up,
I'm
try'n to lie here, etc.), but mostly meaning changes and evolving and
of mind
being meaning and Whitman's Song of Thyself
and us
just being a sum total of what we have experienced and
Jaynes
with Illiad listening to rocks and Gods from within! Why not?
I
wonder how we'll worship the first inplants? Propaganda electrodes?
Penfield
stimulations and olefactory memories.
God
that smells good!
You
have a stone in your shoe? Well stick your finger there inta that
socket
and smell ya burn'n flesh and tell me what you see.
What
color is that flash?
I
apologize for ramblin on...but you guys just hit a note personal to me
with
all this talk of Korzybski and Jaynes right there in one paragraph!
-Mike
Michael
L. Buchenroth
mike@buchenroth.com
www.buchenroth.com
To view
Columbus'
Electronic Literary Magazine
go to
www.buchenroth.com/maga
zine.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:51:27 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: everybody pop a pill and CHILL
Comments:
To: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
In-Reply-To: <33945781.5DB7@midusa.net>
whoah
whoah easy there, race--
i was
not criticising you at all and to tell you the truth i have no idea
what
url it was you were even trying to quote--
i just
saw this paragraph while skimming your message
>
> > I don't know how to put the little neat blue URL (or whatever it's
>
> > called) into my message. I'm
on Netscape (if that helps any government
>
> > agents or beats who might assist me ... :)
and
almost deleted it but decided to reply,
to
assist you,
with
this
>
> see if you can cut and paste it with the shift and arrow keys or your
mouse.
>
> shift-del cuts, shift-ins inserts. if not, just type it -- as long as it
>
> looks like this
>
>
>
> http://somecomputer/someresource-or-whatever
>
>
>
> with the http:// or ftp:// or whatever in front and the whole thing like
>
> that, everyone can see it and all the software can interpret it correctly.
to help
you out,
thinking
that you didn't know how to put an url in a text message and hoping
that my
explanation would help you out in the future.
i
wasn't flaming you, really.
>
i'm very sorry that it isn't in the fancy blue .
i hate
all the corporate neo-techno crap anyway; my views are usually black
and
white.
> I
know that i am a technological idiot.
you
forget that 'nature' is highest technology. all universe is technology.
> if
there is an easy way to make it in blue so it is easy will somebody
>
please teach me backchannel at a kindergarten level. at this point i
>
unbelievably regret that i shared any information about this in the
>
first place.
you
shouldn't! that was the point of my private ("backchannel"?) message
to
you!
>
you say good post. this is exactly what
you want to see. and then you
>
bitch at me for not doing it right.
i
wasn't bitching! remember when i flamed rinaldo, pissed at the list & his
damn
italian message the last straw? _that_ was bitching, this was trying to
help!
>
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/ginsberg-fbi.html
see
there, you did it.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:54:48 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Julian Jaynes (fwd)
Comments:
To: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91.970603125135.14783A-100000@user2.infinet.com>
On Tue,
3 Jun 1997, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
>
Yes I did three of those Cornix Java scripts at:
>
>
www.buchenroth.com/cornixplymell.html
>
www.buchenroth.com/cornixoxy.html
>
www.buchenroth.com/cornixcommittee.html
Cool. I
finally put my first novel online at
http://dsl.org/m/doc/lit/sunclipse.html
... there's three versions -- text,
PostScript
and a Cornix Java thingie. This work is different from most of
the
stuff I've written in its subject matter, and its probably considered
totally
uncool by anything going on today, but I'd really like to hear (in
private
email) what others think.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:03:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
>>
I love Allen Ginsberg
>>
let that be recorded in heaven's
>>
unchangeable heart.
>>
>>
just popped off my CD player as i typed so i typed what my ears heard
>>
and what some voice in my head said "type that bit" it will add to
the
>>
party.
>>
And if
you don't have the recording you can hear this in kerouac's own at
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
First
sound bite under the picture.
It is
good that Ginsy learned that even under old uncle edgar the US was
eminently
more free than the countries run by the mass murdering dictators
he
thought he could visit and then was apparently given an eye opener after
he went
to see them (they were trying to use him).
J.
Edgar all ready knew what Ginsberg had to find out the hard way.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:15:33 -0500
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg and FBI
In-Reply-To:
<970603133737_-228961320@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Every
time I see a pic of FBI Headquarters my mind's eye registers on that
picture
of Jaye Edgar Hoover in drag. What a pleasure that every law
enforcement
agent is forced to live with the same image.
What a
sad, troubled, vicious little punk* he was. As opposed to the happy,
untroubled,
kindly little gem AG was.
Sign
me,
"Anonymous hacker," using grant's E-mail address to make him
look bad in
the
eyes of law enforcement across the country.
* PUNK,
as in how the word in used in the joint.
* * * *
* * * * * * * *
(Grant
responds: The above is a bum rap. Jaye Edgar thought enough of me to
set me
up with free board and room for a while back in the 60's. Caught up
on my
reading, quite smoking, saw a prisoner beat the handball champion of
the
world three games in a row, and worked with Frankie Sepulveda, the
Chicano
(doing 10 years for less than a gram of pot) who laid the
foundation
for the Supreme Court's Leary (as in
Timothy) Decision. That's
one
little piece of legal history that Frank should have been creditied
with.
And YES, there were Beats in the can in the 60s. Or was that
Beatings.
I forget.)
>The
answer to the question about why the FBI pursued people like Allen while
>going
easy on many elements of organized crime is very simple.
>
>J.
Edgar Hoover ran the FBI with an iorn fist.
He was "in bed" with
>organized
crime, they used to let him win at the horse races (a great passion
>of
Hoover's) and they probably could blackmail Hoover about his
>homosexuality. Hoover was obsessed by communists, real and
imagined. So, in
>his
very twisted mind, people like Allen were threats to the country while
>organized
crime figures (who were definately not communists!) were OK. There
>are
many good bios of Hoover that are well worth reading.
>
>Howard
Park
BE ON THE WATCH
for
items stolen from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic
& Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996