>
> > DC
>
>
> not just writers.
>
> it is the great equalizer that the Pope and you and Mother Theresa and I
>
> all share.
>
>
>
> david rhaesa
>
> salina, Kansas
>
>
Nice to know we all have something in common in addition to our
>
craving for beat literature. Everytime
I think of excrement in a way
>
connected to literature, I think of James Joyce, no disrespect intended,
>
just sort of the flow of thought/dream comes to mind. Bodily functions
>
and the process of writing. Union of
physical body and intellect being
>
necessary in the creative process. I'm
sure we can somehow relate this
>
back to beat writers. Any thoughts on
excrement and Kerouac?
> DC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:10:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Excrement & the writing process
Comments:
To: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSD/.3.91.970610180107.12650A-100000@crystal.palace.n et>
MIME-version:
1.0
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Yeah,
man. When I'm taking a nice big dump is the time I feel oneness with
Jack
Kerouac...
At
06:06 PM 6/10/97 -0400, Robert H. Sapp wrote:
>when
i first read, seems so long ago mentally, the section of the
>beginning
of Visions of Cody, where Jack discusses the drawbacks of
>beating
off sittong on a toilet seat, i thought "whooly shit, you can
>write
that in a novel?!"
>
>
>just
>kickin
the shit,
>Eric
>
>
>On
Tue, 10 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
>
>>
RACE --- wrote:
>>
>
>>
> Diane Carter wrote:
>>
> >
>>
>> Actually, don't you see humann elmination processes, I would rather
>>
>>say
>>
> > excrement, real or in the mind, as being the constant in the writing
>nn>
> > process that binds together the consciousness of all writers from the
>>
> > beginning of time to now?
>>
> > DC
>>
>>
> not just writers.
>>
> it is the great equalizer that the Pope and you and Mother Theresa and I
>>
> all share.
>>
>
>>
> david rhaesa
>>
> salina, Kansas
>>
>>
Nice to know we all have something in common in addition to our
>>
craving for beat literature. Everytime
I think of excrement in a way
>>
connected to literature, I think of James Joyce, no disrespect intended,
>>
just sort of the flow of thought/dream comes to mind. Bodily functions
>>
and the process of writing. Union of
physical body and intellect being
>>
necessary in the creative process. I'm
sure we can somehow relate this
>>
back to beat writers. Any thoughts on
excrement and Kerouac?
>>
DC
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:10:29 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
If
pissing became a trend, Allen would follow the stream. And if shit were
valuable,
the poor would be born without assholes.
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:02:59 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dizzy & Kerouac
Comments:
To: NOFERI.MARK@epamail.epa.gov
In a
message dated 97-06-09 18:42:34 EDT, NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV (MARK
NOFERI)
writes:
<<
details of
>Gillespie picking up on Kerouac's name
for the composition that he and
>Charlie Christian called
"Kerouac"? >>
The
following is an exerpt from the liner notes written by Alain Tercinet
from
Dizzie Gillespie's album "The Harlem Jazz Scene - 1941" "Of the
hours
and
hours of music Dizzy Gillespie played during this crucial period, only
three
pieces indisputably his have survived: two versions of Stardust and a
paraphrase
of Exactly Like You, christened "Kerouac" at a much later date
(after
Dizzy had turned down the title Ginsberg).
(above
information was provided by Dave Moore)
go blow
your own horn,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 06:42:51 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: 50 YEARS since DENVER
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Hello
All,
well
i'm armed with a different car as of this morning. i'm planning a
journey
out to Denver for a big huge Humphrey family gala on the fourth
of July
in some downtown Denver apartment that my cousin owns.
i was
talking with my brother-in-law the other day - who lives in Aurora
- about
trying to make some beat-historical theme to the trip as well.
then
this morning as i'd picked up Memory Babe again and was reading out
at a
nearby truckstop, i realized "eureka" this is 50 years since Jack's
trip to
Denver. now the journey is shifting
towards some sort of
pilgram
quest. i'll probably add a day or two
to the journey.
i
scribbled notes of places and streets and whatnot out of Memory Babe.
i'm
hoping that some of y'all who are MUCH MUCH more knowledgeable than
i on
this subject can provide further hints and suggestions.
perhaps
the significance of DENVER to the beat scene is a worthy notion
to
revisit this summer as we feel a half-century memory of Jack moving
through
America towards Denver.
i could
really SEE him in Davenport Iowa in my mind.
I felt i knew
EXACTLY
where everything he was saying was since i lived in that area
for
three years or so.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 07:47:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg
Comments:
To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To: <970610220933_2054769319@emout04.mail.aol.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
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At
10:10 PM 6/10/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>If
pissing became a trend, Allen would follow the stream. And if shit were
>valuable,
the poor would be born without assholes.
>C.
Plymell
>
Actually, when fucking a lover in a
cheap hotel is when I feel most
Ginsbergian.
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:17:52 -0400
Reply-To: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: Dizzy & Kerouac -Reply
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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>>>
<GYENIS@aol.com> 06/11/97 05:02am >>>
In a
message dated 97-06-09 18:42:34 EDT, NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV (MARK
NOFERI)
writes:
<<
details of
>Gillespie picking up on Kerouac's name
for the composition that he and
>Charlie Christian called
"Kerouac"? >>
The
following is an exerpt from the liner notes written by Alain Tercinet
from
Dizzie Gillespie's album "The Harlem Jazz Scene - 1941" "Of the
hours
and
hours of music Dizzy Gillespie played during this crucial period, only
three
pieces indisputably his have survived: two versions of Stardust and a
paraphrase
of Exactly Like You, christened "Kerouac" at a much later date
(after
Dizzy had turned down the title Ginsberg).
(above
information was provided by Dave Moore)
go blow
your own horn,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:36:52 -0600
Reply-To: CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
Subject: 50 YEARS since DENVER -Reply
Comments:
To: race@MIDUSA.NET
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain
**
Reply Requested When Convenient **
Make
sure that you look at Levi's page for great Denver info.
(www.charm.net/`brooklyn/Denver/Denver.html)
Also I'm not sure what
your
trip entails but if you want to happen by the Ogden spoke of in "On
the
Road" & "Visions of Cody" I'll take you by the Kokomo Club
mentioned
in
"Visions" and show you the places where "The Last Time I
committed
Suicide"
was filmed. Ogden is 35 miles north on
I-15 of Salt Lake City
(the
birth place of Neal).
Safe
trip,
carl
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:55:48 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: American Haikus
Comments:
To: CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <s39eba79.097@weber.edu>
MIME-version:
1.0
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I love
Jack Kerouac. Why can't I find any men like him alive today? Fucked
up,
intellectual, hard-assed, tender, goofy, genius..... Damn. Anyway, I
really
love his American Haikus. Here are a couple of my own, inspired by him:
My Grandpa dyes his hair.
He fucked up.
Now it's purple.
Every night I fall asleep
with a dead author
in my hands.
--Sara Feustle
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:10:59 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version:
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hi derek,
"Beaulieu,
Victor-Levy. Jack Kerouac: A Chicken-Essay. Toronto,1975"
are u
close or distant relative with this writer?
love&happiness
yr
Rinaldo
* edmonton sounds me like a
song... *
* like on the green plain i see here *
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:12:20 +0100
Reply-To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>
MIME-Version:
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TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
well,
here's it :
you
see, i'm not trying
to say
anything
because
i already tried
and it
didn't work
which
is cool .like anything else
at the
same time :
i leapt
off the wall
into
the river
(i
haven't done much
in my
life)
but
this at least was
leaping.
i fell
many stories
on
purpose
(i
mean,
both
ways you could take stories
whatever)
i fell
a lot
& i
hit hands first
but i
scored my forehead
to fuck
on the
river base
so i
may have contracted
disease
which
should be something
even if
it isn't
beat.
anyway,
i climbed up afterwards
and
jumped off the bridge
i was
wearing underwear
there
was another guy who wasn't
you
should have seen the tourists
in
don't know if they were happy
but
they were for sure excited
you
should have seen them.
climbed
out & i couldn't
deal
with anything much better
except
i may well be dying
&
so i may as well be alive
-
except i may as well pretend to be
dying
for sympathy well,
whatever.
shit,
everyone else got
special
treatment.
that's
probably not true.
won't
fool anyone.
last
cup of
don't
believe you.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:45:14 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: retreat diaries
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Race
did you
enjoy the retreat diaries. I found them
a glimmer of light on
some of
the more explicable parts of the cities of the red night. I
suppose
it is the perversity in me that makes wsb my favorite. I love
to
believe the writer is talking up to me.
My next favorite of the
associated
beat poets is gary snyder, then perhaps rinaldo , because he
insists
that this list not be provincial. llalala
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:18:22 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Hunter S. Thompson
MIME-version:
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If
anyone is on this late at night. hunter
S. thomson is going to be on
Conan
O'Brian tonight. should be fun.
-matt
ps Hey,
does anyone know the date of the INSOMNIACATHON this year? Im
hoping
to head on down to N'Awlins a bit early and catch it. tanks
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:29:40 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
>I
love Jack Kerouac. Why can't I find any men like him alive today? Fucked
>up,
intellectual, hard-assed, tender, goofy, genius..... Damn.
Uh....you
must not be looking too hard
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:57:18 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
I agree
with Malcs... seems to me there are
plenty of Fucked up,
intellectual,
hard assed, tender, goofy, geniuses out there...
"Even
in heaven they don't sing all the time..."
Jerry
Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:00:21 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Food at the Beat Hotel in mecca
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Several
folks have wanted a detailed food report.
This is not
particularly
my strong suit. As a result of a number
of physical and
psychological
factors, i pretty much see food in terms of purpose rather
than
taste. To me it is basically, a fuel
that the brain and body needs
to
function. I usually dine with a shovel
like scoop until the food is
all
gone. then say good. but this is not adequate for the food that
is
offered
at the Beat Hotel in mecca.
Best
Meal -- the best meal came on the last night.
After going out to
some
place called PIG and drinking a coffee called Black Magic - two
cups. I was in Billie Plymell's room with a blue
hot plate a long blue
fork -
with a spoke or two missing - a penny for my thoughts on the hot
plate
and some musical mixtures i'd concocted for my journey. enough of
ambience. the main course was a slim pamphlet which
was very very
filling
and tastey. probably the most wonderful
words to hit my plate
since
the first time reading Harry Haller's Diaries in Steppenwolf for
the
first time. The tonal and nogunal
veggies tasted familiar yet with
some
spice and cooking that i'd never witnessed before. The meal
consisted
of "The Retreat Diaries" by William Burroughs coming out of
City
Moon. Desert was a two a.m. departure
and several hours of
interstate
and stars mixing with the meal. it was
wonderful.
Second
best meal. Pasta. Now i'm a simple kansas boy and pasta is
pasta. but i can say a bit more. it was circular with spokes and some
was
cream and some was an orangeish tint, and i think perhaps a light
green
spoked circle here and there. The sauce
was tomato and didn't
taste
as though it just popped out of a jar.
within were mixed these
curious
creatures. at first glance i thought
they were cucumbers. they
had the
general shape and look. but the
coloring was off. and they
tasted
nothing like cucumbers. the combination
was a "good" meal and i
shoveled
several helpings. the scene was nice as
well. we ate in an
upstairs
living room as we prepared to watch a film titled "Evening
Star". (which is a road just East of Lawrence that
i passed going to
and
from Kansas City). The movie was good -
i kept saying "where's
Jack,
where's Jack." He came in at the
end and added comedy to what was
becoming
a movie plagued by death. the mixture
of laughter and death
seemed
to provide a good notion about life and helped in the digestion
of the
pasta.
Third
best meal. Loaf of feta cheese and
spinach bread. I zoomed into
Lawrence
with expectations of Turkey on my noggin.
I arrived to ham
(which
my system does not digest particularly well).
there was lots of
pie. pie is something that i love to look
at. and i love to watch
other
people eat. but it has never been
something that i love to
taste. i do love to ingest the images of others
going nuts over the
circular
fruit mixtures. On top of these,
however, was a loaf of feta
cheese
and spinach bread which i sneakily devoured when the rest of the
group
was looking at pies. This was tapped
off with wonderful fresh
strawberries. The scene was incredible an amazing mixture
of faces and
names
and personalities underneath them.
bridge without bullets was a
nice
touch. a walk with Lieutenant Lena was
a grand dessert.
Next
Best Meal. And this is great too. Chicken burritos. definitely
not
from taco bell. everything pieced
together perfectly. just the
right
amount of cheese. the chicken and
cheeses blended into one taste
that
i'd not quite seen hit my stomach before.
the difficulty with this
meal is
that I was completely distracted by Beat-L posts and forgot what
i was
eating it and just completely forgot that i was going to eat more
of
them.
best
snack -- some goose thing.
so
there are the cuisine reviews from one with no sense of taste. no
sense
of food really. I have to put
"Eat" on my lists of things to do
each
day or i completely forget to include food in my daily diet.
rumors
of trip diaries may be over-stated. I
jotted notes here and
there. i might be able to dig a thing or two out
and flesh out the
memories
into something that could pass as a diary.
lots of gas mileage
reports
and whatnot.
looking
forward to a busy day on the Beat-L. If
everyone hungry for
more
Beat-L stuff sends something to the List it could end up being a
hell of
a weekend (it is Saturday isn't it?)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 08:32:46 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
MIME-Version:
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Jerry
Cimino wrote:
>
> I
agree with Malcs... seems to me there
are plenty of Fucked up,
>
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy, geniuses out there...
>
>
"Even in heaven they don't sing all the time..."
>
>
Jerry Cimino
And I
agree with both of you. It's easy to
romanticize the famous and
dead. Looking back at Jack's record he may have
not been a great
bargain
for the women in his life--loveable as he no doubt was.
Certainly
we the living can be at least as fucked up and have some charm
as
well.
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:18:31 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: epiphany in Kerouac
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I have
not read a lot of Kerouac and am now rereading On the Road. It's
been
many years since my first reading of it.
Last night, I came to the
part
where he is hungry and alone in San Francisco, walking the streets,
seemingly
deserted by Dean, he sees an old woman in the window of a
fish-'n-chips
joint who gives him a terrified look, which brings on a
flow of
thought in his head which I would characterize as an epiphany:
"I
wanted to go back and leer at my strange Dickensian mother in the hash
joint. I tingled all over from head to foot. It seemed I had a whole
host of
memories leading back to 1750 in England and that I was in San
Francisco
now only in another life and in another body.
'No,' that woman
seemed
to say with her terrified glance, 'don't come back and plague your
honest,
hard-working mother. You are no longer
like a son to me--and
like
your father, my first husband. 'Ere
this kindly Greek took pity on
me.'
(The proprietor was a Greek with hairy arms.) 'You are no good,
inclined
to drunkenness and routs and final disgrace robbery of the
fruits
of my 'umble labors in the hashery. O
son! did you not ever go on
your
knees and pray for deliverance for all your sins and scoundrel's
acts? Lost Boy! Depart! Do not haunt my soul; I
have done well
forgetting
you. Reopen no old wounds, be as if you
had never returned
and
looked in to me--to see my laboring humilities, sullen, unloved,
mean-minded
son of my flesh. Son! Son!' It made me
think of the Big Pop
vision
in Graetna with Old Bull. And just for
a moment I had reached the
point
of ecstasy that I always wanted to reach, which was the complete
step across
chronological time into timeless shadows, and wonderment in
the
bleakness of the mortal realm, and the sensation of death kicking at
my
heels to move on, with a phantom dogging its own heels, and myself
hurrying
to a plank where all the angels dove off and flew into the holy
void of
uncreated emptiness, the potent and inconceivable radiancies
shining
bright in bright Mind Essence, innumerable lotuslands falling
open in
the magic mothswarm of heaven. I could
hear an incredible
seething
roar which wasn't in my ear but everywhere and had nothing to do
with
sounds. I realized that I had died and
been reborn numberless times
but
just didn't remember especially because of the transitions from life
to
death and back to life are so ghostly easy, a magical action for
naught,
like falling asleep and waking up again a million times, the
utter
casualness and deep ignorance of it. I
realized it was only
because
of the stability of the intrinsic Mind that these ripples of
birth
and death took place, like the action of wind on a sheet of pure,
serene,
mirror-like water. I felt sweet,
swinging bliss, like a big shot
of
heroin in the mainline vein; like a gulp of wine late in the afternoon
and it
makes you shudder; my feet tingled. I
thought I was going to die
the
very next moment. But I didn't die, and
walked four miles and picked
up ten
long butts and took them back to Marylou's hotel room and poured
their
tobacco in my old pipe and lit up. I
was too young to know what
had
happened..."
I guess
what I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
in his
writing, and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
knowledge,
or if he was just following the stream of what others were
doing
in literature. Reminds one of James Joyce,
and even Wordsworth
("our
birth is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
later
works build on the kind of epiphanic awakening?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:26:41 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
I think
this passage is an interesting example of how Kerouac incorporated some
of his Buddhist studies into his
fiction. The publication of Some of the
Dhar
ma in
September should provide us with a lot of material for further study.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:40:26 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
liked
the ku's (high) :
the
last one made methink of whitmans SO Long pome:
"Camerado,
this is no book,
Who
touches this touches a man,
(Is it
night? are we here together alone?)
It is I
you hold and who holds you,
I
spring from the pages into your arms--deceasa calls me forth." WW
thats
how part of it goes, so forthsoon so long
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Wed,
11 Jun 1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
> I
love Jack Kerouac. Why can't I find any men like him alive today? Fucked
>
up, intellectual, hard-assed, tender, goofy, genius..... Damn. Anyway, I
>
really love his American Haikus. Here are a couple of my own, inspired by him:
> My Grandpa dyes his hair.
> He fucked up.
> Now it's purple.
>
>
> Every night I fall asleep
> with a dead author
> in my hands.
>
> --Sara Feustle
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:34:43 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: lurker #254
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
hello
folks,
I've been lurking for about four days
now...this is a ....unique
place. I've been reading some Kerouac and have
found his literary
novelties
of interest...moreso than his novels; however, I'll with hold
final
judgment until I read more of his works for breadth.
Anyhow...just
letting you know I'm here in the shadows...and have
finally
read the instructions on how to send messages (directions...
always
a boon!)
ok...some
commentaries of no significance whatsoever:
1. Excrement enthusiasts *L*...I think it is a
rather *ahem* piss-poor
analogy
for creation. You might look to
Swift...the father of all
shit! However, for creation, usually it is breath
that is associated
with
genius and creation...inspiration...divine breath... not divine
shit. But..if you are an obsequious brown-nosing
Beat fan...then by all
means...look
at it as metaphoric gold...but I'll pan it...thank you
much. Your comments have made me tinkle with
laughter....a watershed
moment
in literary-email
2. Kerouac as sex object.......EWWWW! I read On the Road
recently...and
prompted a discusision in the faculty lounge.
The
results
were interesting. Those coming of age
in the sixties and
seventies
revered the novel...were inspired..got dewy-eyed and such,
remembering
those glorious days of youth. Those
from the eighties
thought
*gasp* Hitchhiked? indiscriminate sex? Dean as a hero? Gack!
Then
the Gen-Xers had found the novel again.
Interesting? (ok...maybe
not,
but I appreciated the novel for reasons not obvious to the others)
Anyhow...to
the woman who lusts after Kerouac...Try to get over a dead
idol...(It
took me a while to displace my lust for Ben Franklin, but I
did
it....and only tremble a bit now at the sight of lightning and
C-notes) Avoid Roads. Find a nice demented
unhappy intellect at your
nearest
hip coffeeshop...
3. okay okay...I don't really have a 3
Anyhow...now
that I've made my appearance, I will try to jump into the
fray
and fray and jangle nerves (I don't worship the beats...and...TS
Eliot
is a much better poet) and drop the phrase dingle-dangle every so
often
for everyone's amusement.
*grin*
this
will be interesting
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:49:31 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A05997.143@together.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
what i
see in Kerouac's a lot and many other's writing is that
Everything
can be
an epiphany.
from,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
listenin
to tHE bOSS
"We
busted outta class had to get away from those fools
We
learned more from three minute record baby than we ever learned in
school" bruce springsteen
On Thu,
12 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> I
have not read a lot of Kerouac and am now rereading On the Road. It's
>
been many years since my first reading of it.
Last night, I came to the
>
part where he is hungry and alone in San Francisco, walking the streets,
>
seemingly deserted by Dean, he sees an old woman in the window of a
>
fish-'n-chips joint who gives him a terrified look, which brings on a
>
flow of thought in his head which I would characterize as an epiphany:
>
>
"I wanted to go back and leer at my strange Dickensian mother in the hash
>
joint. I tingled all over from head to
foot. It seemed I had a whole
>
host of memories leading back to 1750 in England and that I was in San
>
Francisco now only in another life and in another body. 'No,' that woman
>
seemed to say with her terrified glance, 'don't come back and plague your
>
honest, hard-working mother. You are no
longer like a son to me--and
>
like your father, my first husband.
'Ere this kindly Greek took pity on
>
me.' (The proprietor was a Greek with hairy arms.) 'You are no good,
>
inclined to drunkenness and routs and final disgrace robbery of the
>
fruits of my 'umble labors in the hashery.
O son! did you not ever go on
>
your knees and pray for deliverance for all your sins and scoundrel's
>
acts? Lost Boy! Depart! Do not haunt my
soul; I have done well
>
forgetting you. Reopen no old wounds,
be as if you had never returned
> and
looked in to me--to see my laboring humilities, sullen, unloved,
>
mean-minded son of my flesh. Son! Son!'
It made me think of the Big Pop
>
vision in Graetna with Old Bull. And
just for a moment I had reached the
>
point of ecstasy that I always wanted to reach, which was the complete
>
step across chronological time into timeless shadows, and wonderment in
>
the bleakness of the mortal realm, and the sensation of death kicking at
> my
heels to move on, with a phantom dogging its own heels, and myself
>
hurrying to a plank where all the angels dove off and flew into the holy
>
void of uncreated emptiness, the potent and inconceivable radiancies
>
shining bright in bright Mind Essence, innumerable lotuslands falling
>
open in the magic mothswarm of heaven.
I could hear an incredible
>
seething roar which wasn't in my ear but everywhere and had nothing to do
>
with sounds. I realized that I had died
and been reborn numberless times
>
but just didn't remember especially because of the transitions from life
> to
death and back to life are so ghostly easy, a magical action for
>
naught, like falling asleep and waking up again a million times, the
>
utter casualness and deep ignorance of it.
I realized it was only
>
because of the stability of the intrinsic Mind that these ripples of
>
birth and death took place, like the action of wind on a sheet of pure,
>
serene, mirror-like water. I felt
sweet, swinging bliss, like a big shot
> of
heroin in the mainline vein; like a gulp of wine late in the afternoon
>
and it makes you shudder; my feet tingled.
I thought I was going to die
>
the very next moment. But I didn't die,
and walked four miles and picked
> up
ten long butts and took them back to Marylou's hotel room and poured
>
their tobacco in my old pipe and lit up.
I was too young to know what
>
had happened..."
>
> I
guess what I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
> in
his writing, and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
>
knowledge, or if he was just following the stream of what others were
>
doing in literature. Reminds one of
James Joyce, and even Wordsworth
>
("our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
>
later works build on the kind of epiphanic awakening?
> DC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:58:27 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments:
To: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us>
In-Reply-To: <339FDED4.50FE@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
welcome
aboard --
at
times you might get sick of the rocking back and forth, back and
forth,
so feel free to lean (but too far) over the edge at times for some
salty
clean air,
overall,
though, the SS Beat-list has a mighty crew of drunken pirates
who
singing diddies of experience, wisdom and bullshit. and the voyage is
awakening...
adios,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
On Thu,
12 Jun 1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
hello folks,
> I've been lurking for about four days
now...this is a ....unique
>
place. I've been reading some Kerouac
and have found his literary
>
novelties of interest...moreso than his novels; however, I'll with hold
>
final judgment until I read more of his works for breadth.
> Anyhow...just
letting you know I'm here in the shadows...and have
>
finally read the instructions on how to send messages (directions...
>
always a boon!)
>
ok...some commentaries of no significance whatsoever:
>
>
1. Excrement enthusiasts *L*...I think
it is a rather *ahem* piss-poor
>
analogy for creation. You might look to
Swift...the father of all
>
shit! However, for creation, usually it
is breath that is associated
>
with genius and creation...inspiration...divine breath... not divine
> shit. But..if you are an obsequious brown-nosing
Beat fan...then by all
>
means...look at it as metaphoric gold...but I'll pan it...thank you
>
much. Your comments have made me tinkle
with laughter....a watershed
>
moment in literary-email
>
>
2. Kerouac as sex
object.......EWWWW! I read On the Road
>
recently...and prompted a discusision in the faculty lounge. The
>
results were interesting. Those coming
of age in the sixties and
>
seventies revered the novel...were inspired..got dewy-eyed and such,
>
remembering those glorious days of youth.
Those from the eighties
>
thought *gasp* Hitchhiked? indiscriminate sex? Dean as a hero? Gack!
>
Then the Gen-Xers had found the novel again.
Interesting? (ok...maybe
>
not, but I appreciated the novel for reasons not obvious to the others)
>
Anyhow...to the woman who lusts after Kerouac...Try to get over a dead
>
idol...(It took me a while to displace my lust for Ben Franklin, but I
>
did it....and only tremble a bit now at the sight of lightning and
>
C-notes) Avoid Roads. Find
a nice demented unhappy intellect at your
>
nearest hip coffeeshop...
>
>
3. okay okay...I don't really have a 3
>
>
Anyhow...now that I've made my appearance, I will try to jump into the
>
fray and fray and jangle nerves (I don't worship the beats...and...TS
>
Eliot is a much better poet) and drop the phrase dingle-dangle every so
>
often for everyone's amusement.
>
*grin*
>
this will be interesting
>
Barb
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:52:53 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
In a
message dated 97-06-12 14:26:48 EDT, you write:
<<
I agree with Malcs... seems to me there are plenty of Fucked up,
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy,
geniuses out there...
"Even in heaven they don't sing all the
time..."
Jerry Cimino >>
Yeah
but they're not all as good looking.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:51:58 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation.
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
DEAR
friends,
amazingly
I found that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
when he
changed his name? and why?
---
yrs
Rinaldo
* a not
competent beat is a beet? *
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:04:42 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: John Cage, "Writing through
Howl" (1984)
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
John
Cage, "Writing through Howl" (1984)
mAdness
coLd-water
fLats
thE
braiNs
throuGh
wIth
aNd
academieS
Burning
monEy
maRijuana
niGht
After
endLess
cLoud
thE
motioNless
Green
joyrIde
suN
aShcan
Brain
drainEd of
bRilliance
niGht
http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88/cage-ginsberg.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:10:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Comments:
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970612235158.0068b0e4@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
11:51 PM 6/12/97 +0200, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>DEAR
friends,
>amazingly
I found that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
>when
he changed his name? and why?
>---
>yrs
>Rinaldo
>* a
not competent beat is a beet? *
Actually,
his real name was Jean-Louis Kerouac. I don't know when he
changed
it or why. Wasn't "Jack" a popular nickname for "John,"
though back
then?
Anybody know?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:16:55 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Comments:
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970612235158.0068b0e4@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
rinaldo
kerouac's
name is jean kerouac, which translates into engish roughly as
john.
jack is slang for john (god knows why)
therefore
jean=john=jack kerouac
i think
when he started going to skool he started going by john (more
english).
is that right?
yrs
derek
On Thu,
12 Jun 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>
DEAR friends,
>
amazingly I found that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
>
when he changed his name? and why?
>
---
>
yrs
>
Rinaldo
> *
a not competent beat is a beet? *
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:28:40 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spoken Word
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Try
falling asleep listening to Kerouac's spoken-word albums sometime. It's
a
really wonderful, eerie feeling, especially with headphones. --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:51:44 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Hunter
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thought
I'd report back on my findings from the Late Late Show (Sorry
Patricia
that i didn't respond to your message in time, I just got it).
It was
so FUNNY. Conan went out shooting and
drinking with Hunter S.
Thomson
and they blew up all kindsa stuff in the name of art. Guns kept
getting
bigger and bigger and they kept drinking more and more whiskey.
Eventually
ended up blowing apart signs with grenade launchers.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:51:49 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I
guess what I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
>in
his writing, and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
>knowledge,
or if he was just following the stream of what others were
>doing
in literature. Reminds one of James
Joyce, and even Wordsworth
>("our
birth is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
>later
works build on the kind of epiphanic awakening?
>DC
>
I think
the use of epiphany was a very conscious decision by Jack. I
believe
that many of his books revolve around the quest for Nirvana or
Enlightenment
or "that moment when you know all and everything is decided
forever." I think Jack was really into this quest long
before he was turned
onto
Buddhism and i think that was one of the things about Buddhism that he
really
dug. I would bet that the narrator in
every novel written by Jack
has
some kind of an epiphany during some course of the book. I know the
endings
of both Big Sur and Desolation Angels seem kind of epiphanic (my
word). Dharma Bums is full of epiphanys: "You can't fall off a mountain."
On the
Road has its own share, including the one you mentioned, Diane. IT
IT
IT. What is "IT" other than
Nirvana? Visions of Cody has them also.
Satori
in Paris is named after his "sudden glimpse of understanding" in
France. I think this is one of the reasons that i
love Jack so much, he was
always
searching for The End, always searching for meaning in a world that
seems
so devoid of it at times. He was always
thinking of something bigger,
something
universal.
matt
*****************************************************************
"Everyone
takes the limits of his own vision
for the limits of the world."
Arthur
Schopenhauer
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:40:18 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Correct
me if I'm wrong, but I remember hearing John F. Kennedy's name said
as
"JACK" as well. So, this
would probably support the theory that Jack
was a
nickname for John, but I'm not sure.
At
04:16 PM 6/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>rinaldo
>kerouac's
name is jean kerouac, which translates into engish roughly as
>john.
jack is slang for john (god knows why)
>therefore
jean=john=jack kerouac
>i
think when he started going to skool he started going by john (more
>english).
is that right?
>yrs
>derek
>On
Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>>
>>
DEAR friends,
>>
amazingly I found that the real name of KEROUAC is JOHN,
>>
when he changed his name? and why?
>>
---
>>
yrs
>>
Rinaldo
>>
* a not competent beat is a beet? *
>>
>
>
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
------------------------------------------------------
I am the one who lacks a COOL signature file!
Greg
Elwell-1997
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:16:40 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments:
To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33A0169D.2B3B@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu,
12 Jun 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
>
Certainly we the living can be at least as fucked up and have some charm
> as
well.
I must
adjoin a comment. comment.
seriously,
men have just as much right to be neurotic, moody, whatever,
as
wimmin do.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:26:14 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A05997.143@together.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu,
12 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
>
the very next moment. But I didn't die,
and walked four miles and picked
> up
ten long butts and took them back to Marylou's hotel room and poured
>
their tobacco in my old pipe and lit up.
I was too young to know what
>
had happened..."
>
> I
guess what I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany
> in
his writing, and if after one, he and his writing changed with the
>
knowledge, or if he was just following the stream of what others were
>
doing in literature. Reminds one of
James Joyce, and even Wordsworth
>
("our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting") to some extent. Do his
>
later works build on the kind of epiphanic
awakening?
I think
he sort of grew through these things, you know? This one had
your
ephinany, others had classical teachings.
I really like Desolation
Angels. But read Dr. Sax. It's hugely autobiographical.
I think I
spotted
the roots of his homosexual leanings. I
wonder if Jack saw that
when he
wrote that. It's nice. His books are nice to re-read. And
again. Like Twain.
Or Hemingway.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:32:28 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.
Comments:
To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970612181045.00693a68@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Thu,
12 Jun 1997, Sara Feustle wrote:
>
Actually, his real name was Jean-Louis Kerouac. I don't know when he
>
changed it or why. Wasn't "Jack" a popular nickname for
"John," though back
>
then? Anybody know?
Yup.
Yup.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:10:41 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Jack
MIME-Version:
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Jack...definitely
a common nick for John...saw it in the baby books I
perused
when having the boys a few years back....you have to consider
the
nicks....Unfortunately hubby vetoed the idea of naming my son
Brock....then
he could have gone through life as Brock Wirtz (you have
to let
it roll off your tongue...and taste it a bit) *grin*
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:21:21 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: lAsT cHaNgE in beat-L (the voices &
the echoes)
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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DEAR
friends,
1^
thanx alot for gimme information 'bout JK's name... work in progress.
2^ 'cuz
recent change in the politcs
of the Beat-List: i get 2 message:
one from the replayer
& one from the B-list,
i think it's 2B a nice feature,
no other mailing list can do it,
only the beats can do it!
great!,
love&happiness,
yrs
Rinaldo
from
venice,italy.
* a not
competent beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:49:16 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments:
To: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970612221447.28809A-100000@polaris.mindport.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
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At
10:16 PM 6/12/97 -0400, Sisyphus wrote:
>On
Thu, 12 Jun 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
>
>>
Certainly we the living can be at least as fucked up and have some charm
>>
as well.
>
>I
must adjoin a comment. comment.
>
>
Thnak
you for your comment. comment. *grin*
>
>
>
>seriously,
men have just as much right to be neurotic, moody, whatever,
>as
wimmin do.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:56:27 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Pome
Comments:
cc: jtrumm@bgnet.bgsu.edu
MIME-version:
1.0
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Gift. Mist.
Mist. Gift.
Two words
so lovely in English
so fugly in German
one meaning poison,
the other, shit.
Misty morning dew.
Birthday Gift.
A light, fragrant Mist.
Giftwrap. Giftshop.
Sunbeams thru the Mist.
Nature's silent Gift.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:17:37 +0200
Reply-To: Moritz Rossbach
<moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Moritz Rossbach
<moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments:
To: Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.16.19970612195502.1b1fd89e@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version:
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hi
leitha (matt?!) and all you beat weirdos!
this
sounds like fun, good ole hunter is producing himself again, please
tell
more about it. was it live ? in tv? anyway, i guess this was
everything
else than p.c.!
--------------sincerely
moritz rossbach
saarbruecken, germany
moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de
http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------
On Thu,
12 Jun 1997, Leitha Sackmann wrote:
>
Thought I'd report back on my findings from the Late Late Show (Sorry
>
Patricia that i didn't respond to your message in time, I just got it).
>
> It
was so FUNNY. Conan went out shooting
and drinking with Hunter S.
>
Thomson and they blew up all kindsa stuff in the name of art. Guns kept
>
getting bigger and bigger and they kept drinking more and more whiskey.
>
Eventually ended up blowing apart signs with grenade launchers.
>
>
matt
>
>
>
*****************************************************************
>
>
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision
> for the limits of the world."
>
> Arthur Schopenhauer
>
>
*****************************************************************
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:25:55 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments:
To: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.970613141235.21585B-100000@sbustd.stud.uni-s
b.de>
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DAmmit!
I fell asleep again reading Kerouac's _Book of Blues_ and mised it.
%$#@^&%.
Hey, Moritz, kann ich mit ihnen mein Deutsch =FCben? --Sara Feustle
At
02:17 PM 6/13/97 +0200, Moritz Rossbach wrote:
>hi
leitha (matt?!) and all you beat weirdos!
>this
sounds like fun, good ole hunter is producing himself again, please
>tell
more about it. was it live ? in tv? anyway, i guess this was
>everything
else than p.c.!
>
>--------------sincerely
> moritz rossbach
> saarbruecken, germany
> moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de
> http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000----------------
>
>On
Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Leitha Sackmann wrote:
>
>>
Thought I'd report back on my findings from the Late Late Show (Sorry
>>
Patricia that i didn't respond to your message in time, I just got it).
>>
>>
It was so FUNNY. Conan went out
shooting and drinking with Hunter S.
>>
Thomson and they blew up all kindsa stuff in the name of art. Guns kept
>>
getting bigger and bigger and they kept drinking more and more whiskey.
>>
Eventually ended up blowing apart signs with grenade launchers.
>>
>>
matt
>>
>>
>>
*****************************************************************
>>
>>
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision
>> for the limits of the world."
>>
>> Arthur
Schopenhauer
>>
>>
*****************************************************************
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:16:55 -0400
Reply-To: MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Mime-Version:
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>I
guess what I want to discuss if you think he consciously used epiphany in his
writing,
>I
think the use of epiphany was a very conscious decision by Jack... He was
always thinking of something bigger,
>something
universal.
Dear
God, yes. Sadly, Jack looked for his epiphanies everywhere, found them
occasionally, but never achieved
anything
permanent - I think if he had in some way he mightn't have drank
himself to death.
> I
was too young to know what had happened..."
Ironically,
as Jack got older, he realized what had happened but realized too
that it was harder and harder to
recreate
that experience. Reminds me of the scene in Desolation Angels where he
looks at Peter Orlovsky bouncing
around
and digging the world, but he knows that he can't go back to that "On the
Road" stage of his life again.
(Although
I don't think he ever fully reconciled himself to this.)
Mark
Noferi
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:28:00 -0600
Reply-To: Sonya Kolowrat
<skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sonya Kolowrat
<skolowra@RYKODISC.MHUB.COM>
Organization:
MainStream Consulting Group, Inc
Subject: Re: Jack/ Ti Jean
MIME-Version:
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IF one were to drive from The US to
Quebec via Vermont, there is a
little town just inside the Canadian
border in Quebec called "Ti
Jean", which was the child Jack's
nickname. It means "Little John" in
french. I had a dream once about Jack and
I was calling out "Ti Jean,
Ti Jean". Driving through the town
on the way to the city of
debauchery (Montreal) had me thinking
about Jack for a couple of
hours!
-Sonya
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
Jack
Author: WIRTZ@SMTP (Mike & Barbara Wirtz)
{wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US} at MHS
Date: 6/12/97 5:10 PM
Jack...definitely
a common nick for John...saw it in the baby books I
perused
when having the boys a few years back....you have to consider
the
nicks....Unfortunately hubby vetoed the idea of naming my son
Brock....then
he could have gone through life as Brock Wirtz (you have
to let
it roll off your tongue...and taste it a bit) *grin*
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:20:49 EST
Reply-To: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Ray Bremser
I
remember asking Allen Ginsberg how Ray Bremser was doing. This might have
been in
'93. He said he hadn't from Ray in about a year, which was when he last
called.
ray had called Allen and said first off that he wasn't drunk and he
wasn't
asking for money. They talked for awhile when finally Ray admitted he
was
drunk and then asked for money. Allen sent him a couple of hundred bucks.
I
always thought it a funny little story.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:15:14 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970613082555.006957a8@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
MIME-Version:
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Please,
somebody say they got this on tape??
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:24:04 -0400
Reply-To: lcrev@law.emory.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lorri Alice
<lcrev@LAW.EMORY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
MIME-Version:
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Alex
Howard wrote:
>
>
Please, somebody say they got this on tape??
>
>
------------------
Mee
too! I'll send someone a blank tape/postage & any other interesting
tidbits
I can dig up....
Lorri lcrev@law.emory.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:38:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
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MARK
NOFERI wrote:
>
>
>
Dear God, yes. Sadly, Jack looked for his epiphanies everywhere, found them
> occasionally, but never achieved
>
anything permanent - I think if he had in some way he mightn't have drank
> himself to death.
>
>
>
Ironically, as Jack got older, he realized what had happened but realized too
> that it was harder and harder to
>
recreate that experience. Reminds me of the scene in Desolation Angels where
he
> looks at Peter Orlovsky bouncing
>
around and digging the world, but he knows that he can't go back to that
"On
the
> Road" stage of his life again.
>
(Although I don't think he ever fully reconciled himself to this.)
>
>
Mark Noferi
I have
often wondered why Jack drank so much if he had actually touched
the
wonderfulness of the universe in this way.
Why was he able to write
about
such things but not be more positive in living his own life?
Ginsberg
went through much darkness but remained positive in living and
in
writing.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:18:33 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Mark
Noferi.... you wrote that Kerouac became darker as he
aged....Strangely,
I see that darkness in On the Road. It is already
ostensible. Paradoxically, there is something tragic in
a quest that
really
doesn't discover what he seeks. Sure
the journey itself is full
of life
and experience, but there is a definite undercurrent of pathos.
>
>
MARK NOFERI wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear God, yes. Sadly, Jack looked for his epiphanies everywhere, found
them
>
> occasionally, but never achieved
>
> anything permanent - I think if he had in some way he mightn't have drank
>
> himself to death.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ironically, as Jack got older, he realized what had happened but realized
too
>
> that it was harder and harder to
>
> recreate that experience. Reminds me of the scene in Desolation Angels
where
> he
>
> looks at Peter Orlovsky bouncing
>
> around and digging the world, but he knows that he can't go back to that
"On
> the
>
> Road" stage of his life
again.
>
> (Although I don't think he ever fully reconciled himself to this.)
>
>
>
> Mark Noferi
>
> I
have often wondered why Jack drank so much if he had actually touched
>
the wonderfulness of the universe in this way.
Why was he able to write
>
about such things but not be more positive in living his own life?
>
Ginsberg went through much darkness but remained positive in living and
> in
writing.
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:52:16 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:52:53 -0400
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject:
Re: American Haikus
In a
message dated 97-06-12 14:26:48 EDT, you write:
<<
I agree with Malcs... seems to me there
are plenty of Fucked up,
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy,
geniuses out there...
"Even in heaven they don't sing all the
time..."
Jerry Cimino >>
>Yeah
but they're not all as good looking.
You
need to have them all be good looking? I love hearing sexist remarks
from
women, if only to remind myself that equal opportunity oppression is
still
alive and kicking. Still, I find my comment from yesterday is still
applicable:
You must not be looking too hard. Of course, the $64,000
question
is: Are you a hot little number yourself?
Malcs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:56:34 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A1A1AF.5F52@together.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri,
13 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> I
have often wondered why Jack drank so much if he had actually touched
>
the wonderfulness of the universe in this way.
Why was he able to write
>
about such things but not be more positive in living his own life?
>
Ginsberg went through much darkness but remained positive in living and
> in
writing.
I think
your answer lies in Kerouac's Catholicism.
The Church teaches
guilt. Lifelong damnation for simply being
born. In that Jack was
raised
as a Catholic - and a French Canuk RC, as well - he simply never
got
over that. (I was raised a RC, too, and
am from a Canuk family.
But I'm
younger than Jack by almost 20 years [I was born in '41], so in
a way,
I was "saved" by the Hippie Years.)
And there's his fixation on
his
Mother. That also certainly contributed
to his addiction to booze.
Then,
you have to take into account the times in which he lived. Take a
look at
American life as portrayed by HEmingway & Fitzgerald. Booze.
Booze
everywhere. And tacitly approved by society,
as well. The guy
was a
psychic basket case.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:40:22 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments:
To: Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
02:17 PM 6/13/97 +0200, Moritz Rossbach wrote:
>hi
leitha (matt?!) and all you beat weirdos!
>this
sounds like fun, good ole hunter is producing himself again, please
>tell
more about it. was it live ? in tv? anyway, i guess this was
>everything
else than p.c.!
>
>--------------sincerely
> moritz rossbach
Hey
Moritz. (it's matt, im on my mom's mail
though for the summer).
Unfortunately,
i didn't get it on tape. (sorry
all). I forget what the
name of
Hunter's new book is, but it was promoting that. And they'd strap
balloons
full of paint onto the books and then shoot the balloon, sending
paint
all over the place. It was on the Conan
O'Brian Show which is a late
night
talk show here. Hunter was drinking
glasses of whiskey and Conan was
sipping
on it in shot glasses.
It was
lots of fun, but there wasn't much talking; it was pretty much all
firing
and drinking.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To
believe in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe
in god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:40:25 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments:
To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
09:18 AM 6/13/97 +0000, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>Mark
Noferi.... you wrote that Kerouac became darker as he
>aged....Strangely,
I see that darkness in On the Road. It is already
>ostensible. Paradoxically, there is something tragic in
a quest that
>really
doesn't discover what he seeks. Sure
the journey itself is full
>of
life and experience, but there is a definite undercurrent of pathos.
For me,
it's very interesting (although saddening) when i reread OTR because
it just
seems more and more tragic the more i learn about Jack. It was easy
to
brush all of the awful remarks aside when i read it the first time, but
knowing
so much more about the tragedy that was Jack's life, it becomes much
less of
a happy-go lucky book and more depressing.
VoC seems to be a much
more
upbeat account of the same time period.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To
believe in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe
in god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:58:49 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: well
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
d
i
s o
cia
ti ves
make
y
o
u
lone
ly
why
can't
we see
th
at ?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 20:27:14 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: epiphany in Kerouac
MIME-Version:
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MATT
HANNAN wrote:
>
>
Jack drank so much because he was an alcoholic. Although an alcoholic's
>
drinking pattern may change considerably during their drinking
"career" no
>
amount of "wonderfulness" can make an alcoholic stop drinking.
>
>
Not meant to be a flame, I do see your point.
>
>
Have a great day.
>
>
Matt (a recovering alcoholic (and an unrepentent Jack-aholic))
>
Matt, I
see your point too but have to disagree.
The fact that he was an
alcoholic
does not mean that he could not have changed his behavior, or
there
would be no such people as recovering alcoholics. Even a moment of
enlightenment
can forever change a person's life. And
to be able to
write
about epiphanies, such as the passage I quoted in OTR, makes it
seem
even more tragic. Now, I guess there is
another question here and
that is
whether all the epiphanies in his mind/writing were alcohol or
drug-induced,
i.e., did he need to be high in order to have these visions
and/or
in order to be able to write about them?
That path he could have
changed
as well. Here is a little of what
Ginsberg had to say about it
in
Allen Verbatum,
"So
he wrote a long book called On the Road, and his project was to sit
down,
using a single piece of paper, like a teletype roll that he got
from
the the United Press office in New York (which is like hundreds and
hundreds
of feet) and sit down and type away as fast as he could
everything
he always thought of, going chronologically, about a series of
of
cross-country automobile trips he and a couple of buddies took, with
their
girls, and the grass they were smokin' in '48-'49-'50 and the
peyote
they were eating then, and the motel traveling salesmen they met,
the
small-town redneck gas station attendants they stole gas from, the
small-town
lonely waitresses they seduced, the confusions they went
through,
and the visionary benzedrine hallucinations they had from
driving
a long time on benzedrine, several days, until they began getting
visions
of shrouded strangers along the road saying 'Woe on America,' and
disappearing, flitting like phantoms..."
He also
talks about Visions of Cody, "Visionary moments being the
structure
of the novel--in other words each section of chapter being a
specific
epiphanous heartrending moment no matter where it fell in time,
and
then going to the center of that moment, the specific physical
description
of what was happening..."
I think
what I am saying is that epiphany can be a self-changing thing
and
that yes, touching the wonderfulness of a moment like that can indeed
change
the patterns of a person's life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:47:15 -0400
Reply-To:
Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments:
To: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<01BC77DF.7EEB6660@sea-ts3-p09.wolfenet.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
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I'm a
GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
said
the fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
At
09:52 AM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:52:53 -0400
>From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
>Subject:
Re: American Haikus
>
>In
a message dated 97-06-12 14:26:48 EDT, you write:
><<
I agree with Malcs... seems to me there
are plenty of Fucked up,
>
intellectual, hard assed, tender, goofy, geniuses out there...
>
>
"Even in heaven they don't sing all the time..."
>
>
Jerry Cimino >>
>
>>Yeah
but they're not all as good looking.
>
>You
need to have them all be good looking? I love hearing sexist remarks
>from
women, if only to remind myself that equal opportunity oppression is
>still
alive and kicking. Still, I find my comment from yesterday is still
>applicable:
You must not be looking too hard. Of course, the $64,000
>question
is: Are you a hot little number yourself?
>
>Malcs
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:34:09 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
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Diane
Carter wrote:
Even a moment of
>
enlightenment can forever change a person's life. And to be able to
>
write about epiphanies, such as the passage I quoted in OTR, makes it
>
seem even more tragic. Now, I guess
there is another question here and
>
that is whether all the epiphanies in his mind/writing were alcohol or
>
drug-induced, i.e., did he need to be high in order to have these visions
>
and/or in order to be able to write about them?
>
changed as well. Here is a little of
what Ginsberg had to say about it
> in
Allen Verbatum,
>
"So he wrote a long book called On the Road, and his project was to sit
>
down, using a single piece of paper, like a teletype roll that he got
>
from the the United Press office in New York (which is like hundreds and
>
hundreds of feet) and sit down and type away as fast as he could
>
everything he always thought of, going chronologically, about a series of
> of
cross-country automobile trips he and a couple of buddies took, with
>
their girls, and the grass they were smokin' in '48-'49-'50 and the
>
peyote they were eating then, and the motel traveling salesmen they met,
>
the small-town redneck gas station attendants they stole gas from, the
>
small-town lonely waitresses they seduced, the confusions they went
>
through, and the visionary benzedrine hallucinations they had from
>
driving a long time on benzedrine, several days, until they began getting
>
visions of shrouded strangers along the road saying 'Woe on America,' and
> disappearing, flitting like
phantoms..." . .
>
> I
think what I am saying is that epiphany can be a self-changing thing
>
and that yes, touching the wonderfulness of a moment like that can indeed
>
change the patterns of a person's life.
> DC
Diane,
In some
ways this thread reminds me of one we had going a year or so
ago.
The question of why Jack drank? what would have a non alcholic Jack
been
like? did he need to be high to do what he did?, etc keep coming
back. They are good questions.
I think
it is important to seperate the questions somewhat. Without a
doubt
Jack was an alcholic. But even if he
were not I think it is
impossible
to seperate altered states of mind from his work. Did he
have to
be loaded to have ephiphanies?--probably not in my view. Did he
need to
be loaded to write?--I would say yes.
All the evidence points
to the
fact that he wrote high--on coffee, grass, benzedrine, inhalers,
whatever. He liked to work fast and loose and he loved
uppers for
working--turn
the mind loose, lose the stage fright or writer's block or
whatever.
Maybe I'm forgetting important passages or unaware of things I
haven't
read, but I don't remember Jack talking much about being drunk
as a
source of his vision. He certainly
writes about being a drunk, as
in Big
Sur when it breaks your heart to watch him and Lew Welch in the
grips
of their demons. He talks about wine as
liberator and is so proud
of the
way he opened the wine jugs for the 6 Gallery reading, but the
booze
high is not what he writes about. Grass, peyote, benzedrine,
etc--these
open the doors of perception for him.
Booze just helped him
face
life.
I would
argue that Jack's drinking was a life problem, not an artistic
one. Like most of us who are really aware, he had
those wonderful
ephiphanies. Can these ephiphanies save you?--maybe, but
not
necessarily. Depends on what you do after the flash. I leave
discussions
of the effect of alcholism to those who understand it. I am
not
sure I accept the disease metaphor for this problem, but I'll leave
that to
others. I don't think it helps to blame
the RC church or the
Eisenhower
era or anything else for Jack's inability to put the bottle
down. Some people can drink and stop. Some can't.
But it
is impossible for me to imagine Jack (or practically any Beat
writer)
who didn't depend partly on the inspiration that came from
drugs. Can't imagine my own mind without
acknowledging what drugs have
shown
me either. I suspect that is true of most
of us who are drawn to
these
writers.
I live
for ephipanies too. But I don't count on them to
"save" me.
Joyce
is preoccupied with that experience too, and tho not a drunk
doesn't
come across as a poster boy for mental health.
Just a
slant from the not particularly clean and sober perspective.
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:44:23 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
> I'm
a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>
said the fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little.
--Sara
>
Dear
Sara--
Since
we're all God's and Godesses lets all laugh a little. But it you
Godesses
want to tell us how hard is it to find someone as wonderful as
Jack
forgive us Gods if we whine about how we're just making do with you
until
we we find Marilyn Monroe come back to life.
It's
easy to love a dead legend. Those of us
who are alive present more
problems. I think I'll spend the evening lusting for
Edith Piaf or
Janis
Joplin.
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:50:28 -0700
Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments:
To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
>I'm
a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>said
the fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
I
wasn't implying that you were. I was just noticing that my remark was
applicable
again to the person who chimed in, therefore I was referring to
her,
not you.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:22:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In the
50s when Eliot was English dept cannon fodder I memorized all of
Prufrock.
I have used it off and on throughout my years in teaching. Mainly
because
I think it is a good period piece to acquaint young minds to the
existential
motive rather than assume existentialism is a part of their
conciousness
as it was in previous generations of intellectuals and probably
readers
as well. I found that poem particularly easy to dramatize.
By
contrast even though I am closer to the beat generation I can only
remember
Ginsberg's famous line in Howl and can quote a but a few phrases of
it. I
was Ginsberg when he recorded spontaneously Vortex Sutra coaching him
on some
of the localism and landmarks. The only line I remember from that is
How big
a prick has the President. He asked me to edit TV Baby which I
thought
was an unsuccessful poem from the start and I threw away entire pages
of it.
He think he was aghast. I don't know what he did with the poem after
that
nor do I remember any lines from it. I
could suppose one could infer
from
this that there might be something more to prosody than meets the ear.
Though Allen was a masterful teacher of prosody
and he was a great scholar,
a
little known time he had in Baltimore was when Pam and I found him a semi
seedy
hotel on Reade Street named the same as a Blake line in which he went
into
retreat to study Blake for weeks. A task indeed. If I'd studied Blake I
could
remember the name of that hotel. I guess I never thought most of
Blake's
heady crap was worth reading. I just flipped open my copy (actually
Phil
Whalen's copy) I see his notations on page 241 and overall marginalia
that he
had studied Blake as well. Maybe someone will know that hotel.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:36:50 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
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David-
Thought
you might find this interesting. Bob
sent it to me.
Apparently,
if you
start Dark Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
of
The
Wizard of Oz, the music and the movie match perfectly. Have you
heard
of
this?
>
>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:09:43 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
Comments:
To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
11:36 PM 6/13/97 -0500, RACE --- wrote:
>David-
>Thought
you might find this interesting. Bob
sent it to me.
>Apparently,
>if
you start Dark Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
>of
>The
Wizard of Oz, the music and the movie match perfectly. Have you
>heard
>of this?
>>
>>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
>
Hmmm. .
.
I've
actually experienced this in person. It
did seem to match perfectly,
but i
thought it was just the pot.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To
believe in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe
in god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:35:58 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
In-Reply-To: <33A21FE2.4713@midusa.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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David
Rhaesa writes:
>David-
>Thought
you might find this interesting. Bob sent
it to me.
>Apparently,
>if
you start Dark Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
>of
>The
Wizard of Oz, the music and the movie match perfectly. Have you
>heard
>of
this?
yes,
OZ was an underground magazine printed in
London 1966, on
the ground floor,
INK was another londoner magazine on the
first floor, same
building,
PINK is Floyd
yes,
* PLAY
POWER *
>>
>>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:39:00 +0200
Reply-To: danneman@Update.UU.SE
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Daniel Brattemark
<danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>
Subject: Ginsberg for breakfast
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I
almost choked on my breakfast this morning. What, they're gonna talk
about
Allen Ginsberg on swedish radio. It was true, this woman talked
about
the man she had adored throughout her life. In the paper they
promised
she would let us hear Allen read Howl. That was not true, she
only
played Ballad of the Skeletons. Felt like a safe move, oh well, i'm
not
complaining. She saved my day. And it was on a show that all 100%
cotton
swedish housewifes listen to. Cool.
-daniel
--------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:07:30 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: American Haikus
Comments:
To: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@wolfenet.com>,
Malcolm Lawrence
<Malcolm@wolfenet.com>
In-Reply-To:
<01BC7833.0EB5EC40@sea-ts4-p55.wolfenet.com>
MIME-version:
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Content-type:
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Oh.
Sorry. I guess I forgot my Midol. Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
pardon
the bitchiness.:) I really am a nice person. No, really. *smile* --Sara
At
07:50 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>>I'm
a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>>said
the fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
>
>I
wasn't implying that you were. I was just noticing that my remark was
>applicable
again to the person who chimed in, therefore I was referring to
>her,
not you.
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:53:13 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> In
the 50s when Eliot was English dept cannon fodder I memorized all of
>
Prufrock. I have used it off and on throughout my years in teaching. Mainly
>
because I think it is a good period piece to acquaint young minds to the
>
existential motive rather than assume existentialism is a part of their
>
conciousness as it was in previous generations of intellectuals and probably
>
readers as well. I found that poem particularly easy to dramatize.
>
> By
contrast even though I am closer to the beat generation I can only
>
remember Ginsberg's famous line in Howl and can quote a but a few phrases of
>
it. I was Ginsberg when he recorded spontaneously Vortex Sutra coaching him
> on
some of the localism and landmarks. The only line I remember from that is
>
How big a prick has the President. He asked me to edit TV Baby which I
>
thought was an unsuccessful poem from the start and I threw away entire pages
> of
it. He think he was aghast. I don't know what he did with the poem after
>
that nor do I remember any lines from it.
I could suppose one could infer
>
from this that there might be something more to prosody than meets the ear.
> Though Allen was a masterful teacher of
prosody and he was a great scholar,
> a
little known time he had in Baltimore was when Pam and I found him a semi
> seedy
hotel on Reade Street named the same as a Blake line in which he went
>
into retreat to study Blake for weeks. A task indeed. If I'd studied Blake I
>
could remember the name of that hotel. I guess I never thought most of
>
Blake's heady crap was worth reading. I just flipped open my copy (actually
>
Phil Whalen's copy) I see his notations on page 241 and overall marginalia
>
that he had studied Blake as well. Maybe someone will know that hotel.
>
Charles Plymell
When I
was in college, which was 20 years ago, I read a lot of Blake. I
have
books with tons of notations in the margins, but while I remember
the way
Blake wrote, I could not for the life of me recall lines of a
single
poem. The same with T.S. Eliot, I
remember how he wrote, and if
you
recited poems to me, either Prufrock or something from The Wasteland,
I would
recognize it. I also first read Howl
during this same timeframe,
and I
was so compelled by it that I memorized it.
When Allen died, I
couldn't
make it to any of the memorials so I decided to celebrate at
home by
reciting Howl. After twenty years, I
still remember every single
line of
Howl, and can recite all three parts from beginning to end.
Only
can't do the Holy, Holy footnote. So I
think that while Eliot may
be more
pleasing to the ear, it is not true that Ginsberg's words were
not
truly memorable. All writers end up
with some works that just aren't
so
great, especially a prolific writer.
The thing with Ginsberg is that
he
continually put himself out there, and his words could be inspiring
without
thinking about form. Eliot was too
bound up with form and
thinking
"poetically." And, lurker
#254, it's time to defend your
stance,
that "TS Eliot is a much better poet." You can't just put that
sentence
out there without the "why."
We're waiting.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:29:08 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
> In
some ways this thread reminds me of one we had going a year or so
>
ago. The question of why Jack drank? what would have a non alcholic Jack
>
been like? did he need to be high to do what he did?, etc keep coming
>
back. They are good questions.
>
> I
think it is important to seperate the questions somewhat. Without a
>
doubt Jack was an alcholic. But even if
he were not I think it is
>
impossible to seperate altered states of mind from his work. Did he
>
have to be loaded to have ephiphanies?--probably not in my view. Did he
>
need to be loaded to write?--I would say yes.
All the evidence points
> to
the fact that he wrote high--on coffee, grass, benzedrine, inhalers,
>
whatever. He liked to work fast and
loose and he loved uppers for
>
working--turn the mind loose, lose the stage fright or writer's block or
>
whatever. Maybe I'm forgetting important passages or unaware of things I
>
haven't read, but I don't remember Jack talking much about being drunk
> as
a source of his vision. He certainly
writes about being a drunk, as
> in
Big Sur when it breaks your heart to watch him and Lew Welch in the
>
grips of their demons. He talks about
wine as liberator and is so proud
> of
the way he opened the wine jugs for the 6 Gallery reading, but the
>
booze high is not what he writes
about. Grass, peyote, benzedrine,
>
etc--these open the doors of perception for him. Booze just helped him
>
face life.
>
> I
would argue that Jack's drinking was a life problem, not an artistic
>
one. Like most of us who are really
aware, he had those wonderful
>
ephiphanies. Can these ephiphanies save
you?--maybe, but not
>
necessarily. Depends on what you do
after the flash. I leave
>
discussions of the effect of alcholism to those who understand it. I am
>
not sure I accept the disease metaphor for this problem, but I'll leave
>
that to others. I don't think it helps
to blame the RC church or the
>
Eisenhower era or anything else for Jack's inability to put the bottle
>
down. Some people can drink and
stop. Some can't.
>
>
But it is impossible for me to imagine Jack (or practically any Beat
>
writer) who didn't depend partly on the inspiration that came from
>
drugs. Can't imagine my own mind
without acknowledging what drugs have
>
shown me either. I suspect that is true
of most of us who are drawn to
>
these writers.
>
> I
live for ephipanies too. But I don't count on them to
"save" me.
>
Joyce is preoccupied with that experience too, and tho not a drunk
>
doesn't come across as a poster boy for mental health.
>
>
Just a slant from the not particularly clean and sober perspective.
>
> J
Stauffer
James,
I have
to say I understand and agree with most everything you said. Most
of us
that have a realy affinity for beat literature do so because in
many
personal ways we identify with what they were/are writing about. I
also do
not believe that one can separate art from life. As others have
said in
other posts, who would want to know a non-alcoholic Jack? If you
separate
that fact from his writing you are not any longer talking about
the
same person. In the same way you cannot
talk about a Burroughs or a
Ginsberg
without drugs. But you also do not have
to equate
self-destruction
with art or altered states of conscious with
self-destruction. Maybe that leads to some more questions
about how
Ginsberg
and Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not.
And questions about
the
differences between the influences of Buddhism on Jack and Allen. In
a way I
wish that an epiphany had saved him so that he could have lived
to
write more.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:31:26 -0400
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments:
To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version:
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
that he had studied Blake as well. Maybe someone will know that hotel.
The web
site http://www.lexmark.com/data/poem/poem1.html#bbb has
the
following Blake poems...
(1757 - 1827) English Poet, Artist, Mystic
Songs of Innocence and Experience
(46 poems) (BB)
The Tiger "...In what distant
deeps or skies Burnt the fire of
thine
eyes?"
A Poison Tree (CK)
A Divine Image (CK)
Introduction, from Songs of
Innocence
The Echoing Green "...The sun
does descend, And our sports
have an
end..."
Auguries of Innocence "...To
see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a
Heaven in a
Wild Flower..."
Jerusalem
The Clod and the Pebble
This
site http://www.lexmark.com/data/poem/poem.html with 2,658 Poems
from
401 Poets adds new poets and poems weekly or so. It is linked to
CELM's
Literary Links....
http://www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html
Thnaks
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:55:57 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: American Haikus
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: American Haikus
Date: 97-06-14 12:55:48 EDT
From: Marioka7
To: sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
In a
message dated 97-06-14 09:08:26 EDT, you write:
<<
Oh. Sorry. I guess I forgot my Midol.
Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
pardon the bitchiness.:) I really am a nice
person. No, really. *smile*
--Sara
At 07:50 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence
wrote:
>>I'm a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe,
but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>>said the fuckin' "sexist
remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
>
>I wasn't implying that you were. I was
just noticing that my remark was
>applicable again to the person who chimed
in, therefore I was referring to
>her, not you. >>
look, I
made the "sexist remark" i admit it.
So hang me. It was just a
joke,
who could possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
believe
that offended someone. I think Malcs
needs to take a big, fat,
extra-strength
chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
harm in
noticing that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
more
highly of them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
notice
a beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
by on
the street? Does it mean he thinks
they're better than others? I hope
not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
country
where everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
differences
between people are a taboo subject. If
I notice that someone's
pretty
or has a big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
anything
I say or do. But THEY know it.
I just
wanna say one thing: GET REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
your
face?
The
truth is, everyone is different. Some
people suck, some are really cool.
Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond
hair. Some have
darker/lighter/frecklier
skin than others. Variety is the spice
of life. Why
pretend
it doesn't exist? I have the ability to
love any kind of person, as
long as
they're basically sweet inside. So
what's my crime?
-------------------------------love
and peace and beauty---------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:56:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: haikus and sexism?
In a
message dated 97-06-14 09:08:26 EDT, you write:
<<
Oh. Sorry. I guess I forgot my Midol.
Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
pardon the bitchiness.:) I really am a nice
person. No, really. *smile*
--Sara
At 07:50 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence
wrote:
>>I'm a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe,
but with a brain. I'm not the one who
>>said the fuckin' "sexist
remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a little. --Sara
>
>I wasn't implying that you were. I was
just noticing that my remark was
>applicable again to the person who chimed
in, therefore I was referring to
>her, not you. >>
look, I
made the "sexist remark" i admit it.
So hang me. It was just a
joke,
who could possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
believe
that offended someone. I think Malcs
needs to take a big, fat,
extra-strength
chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
harm in
noticing that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
more
highly of them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
notice
a beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
by on
the street? Does it mean he thinks
they're better than others? I hope
not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
country
where everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
differences
between people are a taboo subject. If
I notice that someone's
pretty
or has a big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
anything
I say or do. But THEY know it.
I just
wanna say one thing: GET REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
your
face?
The
truth is, everyone is different. Some
people suck, some are really cool.
Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond
hair. Some have
darker/lighter/frecklier
skin than others. Variety is the spice
of life. Why
pretend
it doesn't exist? I have the ability to
love any kind of person, as
long as
they're basically sweet inside. So
what's my crime?
-------------------------------love
and peace and beauty---------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:05:05 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Haikus n' sexism (?!)
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Date:
Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:01:48 -0400
>To:
Marioka7@aol.com
>From:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
>Subject:
Damn straight!
>In-Reply-To:
<970614125508_1044806683@emout11.mail.aol.com>
>
>I
totally agree. I was disappointed to find political-correctness on this
list.
Hell yeah, Kerouac was gorgeous, everybody notices that, so what the
fuck's
wrong with pointing it out, ya' know? People need to get a sense of
humor!!!
You'd think that being a fan of Beat poetry would pretty much mean
that
anyone on this list would have to have a good sense of humor, but I
guess
not.... --Sara
>
>
>At
12:55 PM 6/14/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>In
a message dated 97-06-14 09:08:26 EDT, you write:
>>
>><<
>>
Oh. Sorry. I guess I forgot my Midol. Yesterday was a looonnnnggggg day, so
>>
pardon the bitchiness.:) I really am a nice person. No, really. *smile*
>>--Sara
>>
>>
>>
At 07:50 PM 6/13/97 -0700, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
>>
>>I'm a GODDESS, Malcs. A total babe, but with a brain. I'm not the one
who
>>
>>said the fuckin' "sexist remark" either. Jesus. Laugh a
little. --Sara
>>
>
>>
>I wasn't implying that you were. I was just noticing that my remark was
>>
>applicable again to the person who chimed in, therefore I was referring to
>>
>her, not you. >>
>>
>>look,
I made the "sexist remark" i admit it. So hang me. It was just a
>>joke,
who could possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
>>believe
that offended someone. I think Malcs
needs to take a big, fat,
>>extra-strength
chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
>>harm
in noticing that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
>>more
highly of them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
>>notice
a beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
>>by
on the street? Does it mean he thinks
they're better than others? I hope
>>not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
>>country
where everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
>>differences
between people are a taboo subject. If
I notice that someone's
>>pretty
or has a big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
>>anything
I say or do. But THEY know it.
>>
>>I
just wanna say one thing: GET
REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
>>your
face?
>>The
truth is, everyone is different. Some
people suck, some are really
cool.
>>
Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond hair.
Some have
>>darker/lighter/frecklier
skin than others. Variety is the spice
of life.
Why
>>pretend
it doesn't exist? I have the ability to
love any kind of person, as
>>long
as they're basically sweet inside. So
what's my crime?
>>-------------------------------love
and peace and beauty---------maya
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:11:42 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Non-Alcoholic Jack
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think
that as far as Kerouac, Ginsberg AND Burroughs are concerned, the
genius
would have been there with or without the drugs/alcohol. The
intelligence,
talent and sensitivity of those three men are not something
that
can be gotten by simply getting fucked up . As a former alcoholic, I
just
used alcohol to escape; life and stuff inspired me to write whether I
was
drunk or not. --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:17:05 +0000
Reply-To: bocelts@POPMAIL.SCSN.NET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<bocelts@popmail.scsn.net>
From: bocelts@POPMAIL.SCSN.NET
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Hal Norse
Comments:
To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To: <970613232229_845106735@emout09.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7BIT
Charles:
I spent
the day with Hal Norse yesterday. He
said to tell you hello
and
that a real shit stole the good shit. I
may have found him a law
firm to
take that case. (Someone stole many of
his unpublished
manuscripts.) I told him about the Beat-L and he is
interested in
the
list . He is going to have a friend set
him up, if he can. His
health
is not good and had bypass surgury.
He told
me of the first time he saw Ginsburg, Tennesse Williams,
meeting
James Baldwin andother storieds. When I
get back home and
can
reflect on it all, I will make a post to tell the story.
I went
to Berkeley and rode there and back with the ghost of Jack
Kerouac. He was in a good mood and the ghost does not
drink so his
health
has actually improved now that he is dead and his depression
has
been resolved. I got to see some of the
original letters to L.F.
Both
the librarian and Norse confirmed that Gerry's position on the
use of
the archives is correct. Norse told me
that Gerry has made
some
"powerful" enemies because of the positions he has taken and for
helping
Jan.
It has
been very interesting indeed.
When I
went to St. Peter and St Paul, I lit a candle for Jack, Ma
Mere,
Neil and Allen. It is a very spiritual
church. I could feel
the
power of the mystical self quite clearly there. I am not sure
that
Allen cared, but Jack and Ma Mere were happy for the candles, so
I said
a prayer for all of us then.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:07:50 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:08:12 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a
message dated 97-06-14 08:44:37 EDT, lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU (Leitha
Sackmann)
writes:
<< I would bet that the narrator in every novel
written by Jack
has some kind of an epiphany during some
course of the book. ....
... he was always searching for The End, always
searching for meaning in a
world
that seems so devoid of it at times. He
was always thinking of
something
bigger,
something universal. >>
Kerouac,
and most religions, are trying to answer "Why are we here" or
"What
is the
meaning of Life". And the search for these answers leads different
people
to different paths. For Kerouac, it led him to the road.
My
personal belief is that there is no purpose to life, and if you can come
to
accept that gracefully, you can still have a relatively happy (or content)
life
realizing that you should get the most out of it during this one and
only
go-around.
I think
that Kerouac's conflict occurs because he was raised to have a strong
belief
in the greater sanctity of life and heaven (Kerouac's catholocism),
but as
he went through life he was bluntly reminded that a) sanctity of life
is not
universally practiced and b) this may be the one and only roadtrip and
damn,
he may have made some wrong turns. The idea of no afterlife can be a
depressing
thought. Many times it is what helps us get through this life,
thinking
the next one surely has to be better.
Conflict
of this issue is resolved in many different ways. Some people
continue
to have blind belief (sometimes called faith), others try to find
some inbetween
position (zen?), and some take to drink. I think Kerouac's
drinking
came from maintaining outwardly that he had faith in his religion
and the
belief of an afterlife etc, but internally realizing that this might
not be
the case and never being able to come face to face with that.
always
enjoy, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:59:40 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>My
personal belief is that there is no purpose to life, and if you can come
>to
accept that gracefully, you can still have a relatively happy (or content)
>life
realizing that you should get the most out of it during this one and
>only
go-around.
>
This
reminds me of that old beer commercial (you only go around once in
life,
so to get all the gusto out of it drink this beer).
But,
more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
meaning
to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there isn't
what is
wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted of
doing?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:54:46 -0400
Reply-To: corduroy@earthlink.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: corduroy
<corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>
Organization:
http://www.levity.com/corduroy
Subject: Nicole Blackman + Neal Cassady + Levi
Asher
Comments:
To: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"
<PAUL@louisville.lib.ky.us>
Comments:
cc: The Bohemian Ink <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>,
Bil Brown
<bil@orca.sitesonthe.net>,
Ron Whitehead
<rwhitebone@HOTMAIL.COM>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Paul
McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services wrote:
>
Here is the interview. It is not
published anywhere, so you are the
>
first and only. I'll be looking for it and
will let Nicole know when its up.
> If
she hasn't seen yr site yet, she needs to.
Thanks
much for this interview! It is heading up the newest version of
the
Ink,
along
with a bit about a new film that is based on a letter to Kerouac
from
Cassady,
and an announcement on a book Levi Asher co-edited on virtual
writings.
This is
the first time in a very long time I've been able to dig up any
respectful
literary
news, so very very happy to helped me out with this one.
(cR)
--
__________
.........| Bohemian Ink:
http://www.levity.com/corduroy
.o..o..o.|
.........| christopher d. ritter
--------.| - corduroy@earthlink.net -
==|_|
||
==[===]
|| "There is a struggle going on for the minds of
|___| ||
American people. Every form of expression is
--------.| subject to the attack of reaction. This
attack
..KRUPS..| comes in the shape of silence, persecution,
.........| and censorship: three names for fear."
======== - Circle, 1948 -
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:24:05 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat)
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have
heard of this too. My brother and a few
of his friends came over
the
other evening with a copy of OZ. They
were waiting for another friend
to show
up with a copy of Dark Side of the Moon.
Unfortunately, he never
showed
up. But, my brother has heard that this
in fact does work.
At
11:36 PM 6/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>David-
>Thought
you might find this interesting. Bob
sent it to me.
>Apparently,
>if
you start Dark Side of the Moon at the right moment on a video tape
>of
>The
Wizard of Oz, the music and the movie match perfectly. Have you
>heard
>of
this?
>>
>>
http://homepage.usr.com/g/gocheese/48613.shtml
>
>
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:42:34 -0400
Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leitha Sackmann
<lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Goodbye
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Well,
I'm off on a big adventure. Heading to
Alaska in a beat-up '72 Dodge
Motor
Home with five very different but all very bright people. Hopefully,
we'll
get our share of epiphanies on that great and wonderful road. I hope
you all
take care, and if anyone of you are in Sitka, AK this summer look
for the
kid with long hair wearing a beat-l t-shirt.
Should be a rather
"beat"
experience--it was last year.
take care all,
I'll see you in August.
matt
*****************************************************************
"To
believe in god
is to have the great faith
that somewhere, someone
is not stupid."
From a little kids' book: _To Believe
in god_ by Joseph Pintauro
*****************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:50:20 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beat generation.(Kerouac's catholocism)
In-Reply-To:
<970614140811_-328451480@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Attila
Gyenis writes:
>>>>I
think that Kerouac's conflict occurs because he was raised to have a
strong
>belief
in the greater sanctity of life and heaven (Kerouac's catholocism),
>but
as he went through life he was bluntly reminded that a) sanctity of life
>is
not universally practiced and b) this may be the one and only roadtrip and
>damn,
he may have made some wrong turns. The idea of no afterlife can be a
>depressing
thought. Many times it is what helps us get through this life,
>thinking
the next one surely has to be better.<<<<
>always
enjoy, Attila
>
DEAR
friends & Attila,
as i'm
roman catholic by family tradition (here in italy)
i
reminded u that for catholics there's really a survival of our body
after
death & at the right time we will recover OUR BODY not
only
spirit. this faith is popularized in such B-Movie horror cultish
likes
"the night of the living deads" (1968) in term of fear & angst,
but
perhaps the real thing is that WE COME BACK to EARTH as man &
woman
as we are NOW, that's the real force of catholic life, if,
of course
a (wo)man believes.
Jack
Kerouac highlighted in 1958 (lamb, not lion) the Beat Generation
isn't
without roots, beat isn't tough. beat doesn't mean tired or
being
beaten. &JK see himself alive in year 2000...
Jack
Kerouac used the word "beato" (written in italian) for beatific
condition
as San Francesco, trying to love all in the life.
unluckly
10 years after (circa) JK will die, but i don't think
his
catholicism caused "dark" term of his life,
love&happiness,
yrs
Rinaldo.
* a beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 20:23:27 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hal Norse
Bentz:
Sorry
to hear about Hal's surgery. He had
that great manuscript about W. H.
Auden.
I saw part of it published. The part about the giant rapist. I knew he
had a
manuscript he wanted published. I thought he had found a publisher. I'm
sorry
Pam has gone out of business, mainly due to distribution and funding
problems.
Charles