=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 20:33:46 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
DC:
Allen
has recited some of Pound's greatest lines to me which indicates
certainly
that aesthetic form (and you have to equate Pound with that) can
also be
memorable words.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:08:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Stories
In a
message dated 97-06-14 05:00:50 EDT, you write:
<<
When you wrote "the last time I saw Neal and loaned him a fiver..."
>>
Pam and
I were in a sleazy hotel in North Beach when Neal and my old friend
from
Kansas had commandeered someone's VW ran upstairs pounding on our door
both I
assume on speed, hallucinogens, pot, etc. Both had bandannas tied
around
their heads probably to keep everything in and Neal wanted $5 for gas
to go
down to Palo Alto to a hell's angels' party. He looked at me with those
sad
loyal pitiful eyes and assured me that he would pay me back, not that it
made
any difference to me. I had just gone down to the Calif Dept of Motor
Vehicles
to help him get his driver's license which he was all paranoid
about.
My friend Glenn Todd still has Neal's license. Anyway they were both
crazy
driver and were arguing with each other about who was going to drive
the VW
bug. They wanted us to cram in there with them and the girl who owned
the VW.
We of course knew better.
BTW
Glenn Todd has just found an old manuscript he dug from someone's box of
things
he kept (he won't say whose). It is 65 pages. I'm trying to persuade
him to
publish it somewhere somehow. It is a chronicle of the party I had on
Gough
street where he was living with me and Dave Haselwood of the Auerhahn
Press
before Neal and Allen had moved in. Roxie arrived also that night from
Europe.
The manuscript is important because the party was just prior to the
Haight
Ashbury scene breaking out. Allen had just come from India. He brought
to my
party Ferlinghetti and Whalen. Daniel Moore and his wife arrived.
Michael
McClure and his wife arrived. The description of the party gives the
reader
a snapshot of what was happening with the Sandoz vials of LSD and the
Cheracol
bottles as candle holders on the fireplace mantel. It gives a good
description
of Phil Whalen dancing to many different kinds of music and it
was in
an historic pad. Described in this little description from his
writing:
"Nervous,
hung-up ghosts flit from room to room. Remnants of meth electrify
the
air, mists of marijuana have cooled its rafters; immobility of junk has
settled
in its corners, sometimes so thick you could heat it in a spoon. It
has an
immediate history which stretches back into the great Beat days of the
fifties
when Allen Ginsberg, Peter Orlovsky, and Robert LaVigne lived there,
and a
vague legend that reaches back to the forties, and even the thirties,
lurching
in gaps toward the present in intertwining and overlapping plots."
"On
the wall above her round kitchen table Nina has tacked a sign carefully
lettered
in orange crayold: I AM RESPONSIBLE.
Across the room another sign
proclaims:
LSD DID, to which someone has added, NOT; which someone else
extended,
HING; a final flourish completes the sign with A LOT. 'LSD id
nothing
a lot." Glenn said: "Everyone
has a Gough Street story."
This is
one of his. Neal returned to Nina's room just before he went to
Mexico.
It is also important to note the terminology of the time. The term
"acid"
had not been coined and one can see by that little crayon note how
easy it
would be to slip into Eastern mysticism.
That was part of my point
about
reciting T.S. Eliot to my students who might not have the existential
motif
entwined in the consciousness. It would be similar to use some of the
Taoist
texts or Jim Morrison's poetry, or Blake, or Rimbaud to reveal the
conciousness
that was going to happen in the Haight. I have assumed that
these
motives are not always enterwined throughout each generation's
conciousness.No
big deal about who's fucking poems one can recite.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:45:39 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Diane
Carter wrote in response to C. Plymell and Lurker #254
>
>
When I was in college, which was 20 years ago, I read a lot of Blake. I
>
have books with tons of notations in the margins, but while I remember
>
the way Blake wrote, I could not for the life of me recall lines of a
>
single poem.
Diane,
I cannot believe that you guys can't at least remember some of
the
poems of Innocence and Experience.
"Tyger Tyger burning bright"
"Ah
Sunflower weary or Time", etc.
Some of Blake's things do get
awfully
complicated and arcane, but the Songs are as simple as poetry
gets,
and obsessed with the visionary, which was why they so drew
Ginsberg.
The same with T.S. Eliot, I remember how he
wrote, and if
>
you recited poems to me, either Prufrock or something from The Wasteland,
> I
would recognize it. . . .
Eliot was too bound up with form and
>
thinking "poetically." And,
lurker #254, it's time to defend your
>
stance, that "TS Eliot is a much better poet." You can't just put that
>
sentence out there without the "why." We're waiting.
> DC
Not the
lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here. Much as I love
Allen,
he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
things. I think he had an awful influence on modern
poetry, but "Love
Song",
"The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty damn
wonderful--even
if they may not have been nearly so good without Pounds
help. And what's wrong with a poet being obsessed
with "form" and being
"poetic"? Seems to me that this is what poetry is
about?
And
thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to
argue
with.
J
Stauffer.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:04:22 +0200
Reply-To: Jean.ORY@hol.fr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jean ORY <Jean.ORY@HOL.FR>
Organization:
ORY Jean
Subject: Re: Epiphany in kerouac
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That is
a question I asked to myself:
Why
Kerouac - Buddhism - Booze?
First
point - even a Buddhist master can be an alcoholic!
Chogyam
Trungpa got a car crash in England because he was drunk. he went
straight
on to a wall instead of following the curve of the road.
The
sixteenth Karmapa told him to go for a one year retreat to come down
a
little from his habit.
Namkay
Norbu, recognized as a Dzogchen master, is known as a heavy
drinker
and was advised by the doctors to stop because it was damaging
his
health.
Taisen
Deshimaru, the Zen master who brought Soto Zen in Europe was a
cognac
lover and a heavy nicotine smoker.
Second
point is that Jack Kerouac, thought "Natural Buddhist" didn't
have
any guru who really taught him how to meditate.
Third
point: I agree with that Catholic guilty feeling which should have
been
eradicated through receiving Buddhist teachings from a competent
teacher
and through correct meditation.
I think
that Ginsberg had led a positive end of life because he met
Choghyam
Trungpa and learn from him what really was meditation and so
how to
get from meditation what people used to get from drinking alcohol
or from
taking any mind changing drug.
About
Ti Jean : *Ti* is the phonetic contraction of
*petit* which means
small.
*Ti* is
the Canadian phonetic way to say "petit".
Hi to
the Canadians of the list!
A
question: Was there any meeting between Shunryu Suzuki, author of "Zen
Mind,
beginner's mind" who was teaching from the beginnings of the
sixties
Soto Zen in San Francisco and the Beat Generation Authors?
I read
that Shunryu Suzuki made a lecture at the last be in concert in
the
sixties along with Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the Grateful Dead
What's
about Alan Watts and the Beats?
Just an
information for fun!
Beginning
of the sixties I was a regular visitor of the Shakespeare and
CO
bookshop in Paris where they were many beat vibes, many people from
everywhere
coming and going.
I been
living in Tangier for one year between 1965 and 1966.
I was
bookshop assistant at the Librairie de Colonnes, boulevard
Pasteur.
I went
to Tangier, because the grass and because Howl and because the
Naked
lunch.
One day
in spring 1966 I saw William Burroughs come in the bookshop.
I was
so paralyzed that I even couldn't ask him for an autograph.
Paul
Bowles used to come often to the bookshop as many other Tangier
people
who were painters, writers, etc.
I went
back in 1967 for holidays.
I never
went back then, because I had so many good memories, I met so
many
beautiful and brilliant people reading the I Ching and "The Tibetan
Book of
the Dead, a psychedelic experience" and many of them died or
went
away.
Took my
first trip there.
I
experienced "I saw the best minds of my generation....." with a
broken
heart.
All
things must pass..........
Jean
Enlarging
my ears to listen to the sound of one palm of a hand for
myself
and for them.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:47:10 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33A2FF14.5625@together.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Sat,
14 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> I
have to say I understand and agree with most everything you said. Most
to...
>
Ginsberg without drugs. But you also do
not have to equate
>
self-destruction with art or altered states of conscious with
>
self-destruction. Maybe that leads to
some more questions about how
For the
first "self-destruction" substitute self-immolation. And art is
only
art only an attempt to communicate the ineffable. Only. Life is
learning. I would say "drugs" [and god DAMN!
the gov't for making me do
that]
are a necessity. It's the by-roads that
illuminate.
>
Ginsberg and Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not. And questions about
>
the differences between the influences of Buddhism on Jack and Allen. In
> a
way I wish that an epiphany had saved him so that he could have lived
> to
write more.
Lordy
Lordy. I tell YOU! I could not live in the same extHistance
plane
as a saved Jack Kerouac. I been
saved. Forget it, there's no
interest
accruing . I don't think it was ever a
matter of how much, for
Jack.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:51:38 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: haikus and sexism?
Comments:
To: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970614125648_318395933@emout01.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
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On Sat,
14 Jun 1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
>
look, I made the "sexist remark" i admit it. So hang me.
It was just a
>
joke, who could possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't
>
believe that offended someone. I think
Malcs needs to take a big, fat,
>
extra-strength chill pill and not take such things so seriously. What's the
>
harm in noticing that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think
>
more highly of them. It's just a fact. Is he so saintly that he doesn't
>
notice a beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk
> by
on the street? Does it mean he thinks
they're better than others? I hope
>
not. And i resent being accused of such
superficiality. I hate this goddam
>
country where everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that
>
differences between people are a taboo subject. If I notice that someone's
>
pretty or has a big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in
>
anything I say or do. But THEY know it.
>
> I
just wanna say one thing: GET
REAL. Why ignore the truth when it's in
>
your face?
>
The truth is, everyone is different.
Some people suck, some are really cool.
> Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond
hair. Some have
>
darker/lighter/frecklier skin than others.
Variety is the spice of life. Why
>
pretend it doesn't exist? I have the
ability to love any kind of person, as
>
long as they're basically sweet inside.
So what's my crime?
>
-------------------------------love and peace and beauty---------maya
>
Hey
nice tirade. Your crime is that you're
honest. Could we plan a
hanging
soon?
[i
echoed that because i like what she says]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:10:41 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat generation.(Kerouac's
catholocism)
Comments:
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970614235020.00d6fe8c@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Sat,
14 Jun 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
unluckly 10 years after (circa) JK will die, but i don't think
>
his catholicism caused "dark" term of his life,
rinaldo
rinaldo rinaldo.... he was guilty. we
all are guilty. from
birth. jack wanted not salvation, but elevation. but he was guilty.
it's so
hard. he broke free and showed us it...
every so often. give
thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:46:11 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Epiphany in kerouac
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Jean
ORY wrote:
>
>
Second point is that Jack Kerouac, thought "Natural Buddhist" didn't
>
have any guru who really taught him how to meditate.
>
So you
would see the Marin-An mediation period as an unsucessful lesson?
>
Third point: I agree with that Catholic guilty feeling which should have
>
been eradicated through receiving Buddhist teachings from a competent
>
teacher and through correct meditation.
. . .
> A
question: Was there any meeting between Shunryu Suzuki, author of "Zen
>
Mind, beginner's mind" who was teaching from the beginnings of the
>
sixties Soto Zen in San Francisco and the Beat Generation Authors?
> I
read that Shunryu Suzuki made a lecture at the last be in concert in
>
the sixties along with Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the Grateful Dead
>
>
What's about Alan Watts and the Beats?
>
It
would be nice to get Nicosia to answer what documented contacts there
are. Kerouac had to be aware of those people as
he moved in Buddhist
circles
with Kerouac and with East/West house people such as Lew Welch,
Joanne
Kyger, Lorraine Kandel, Tom Field, etc. Watts was a huge presence
in SF
in those years and Rexroth was also very knowledgable in Buddhist
matters.
All I really know about Jack's meditative practice is what you
get in
Dharma Bumms and Desolation Angels.
Would like to hear more
facts
about his contacts from the biographical experts. But it is
interesting
that what worked for say Snyder and Kyger, worked only
partially
for Lew and Jack. Whatever they learned
sitting and Marin-An
the
bottle was still too much for both of them.
And of course it is
rather
judgmental to say that Jack and Lew failed.
Their lives were
short,
and not particularly happy, but they left great work behind. All
lives
are different. Of course Snyder, Kyger and Whalen followed up this
time
with intense work in Japan.
Thanks
for a very interesting post. Enjoyed
your Tangiers
recollections.
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:59:53 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
Mime-Version:
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June
15, 1997
Attila
Gyensis writes:
>
>Conflict
of this issue is resolved in many different ways. Some people
>continue
to have blind belief (sometimes called faith), others try to find
>some
inbetween position (zen?), and some take to drink. I think Kerouac's
>drinking
came from maintaining outwardly that he had faith in his religion
>and
the belief of an afterlife etc, but internally realizing that this might
>not
be the case and never being able to come face to face with that.
>
>always
enjoy, Attila
>
Dear
Attila:
You trivialize Jack Kerouac's faith
and spiritual seeking in a not
very
kind manner. Michael McClure considers
MEXICO CITY BLUES the most
profound
spiritual poem of the 20th century, and I see the Kerouac's oeuvre
as
certainly one of the most profound spiritual searches in this century--a
modern
equivalent of St. Thomas Aquinas or St. John of the Cross, or perhaps
a
closer analogy would be some more unconventional seekers such as
Kierkegaard
and Jacob Boehme.
I don't think Jack "drank because
of doubt," as you imply. Early
on,
Jack wrote to John Holmes, "Life is drenched in spirit; it rains
spirit..."
and I don't think Jack ever lost that belief at all. His
kindness,
which came from a deep sense of God's love, was manifested even at
the
end, when he told Stella "I love you" just before they took him to
the
hospital--despite
the fact that they had been having the bitterest fights
before
then. That was an act of pure, selfless
compassion--whether
"Buddhist"
or "Christian" hardly matters, and would be an arbitrary
distinction
anyway.
Jack could not bear to witness human
suffering; in fact, any
suffering
in this world took an enormous emotional toll on him. He had a
tremendous
sensitivity, a child's sensitivity, but unlike most grown people,
that
sensitivity was not dulled or calloused over for self-protection. He
was a
walking open wound, an exceptionally vulnerable person, who was stung
to the
quick even by bad reviews written by stupid, incompetent reviewers
(at one
point he asked Matsumi Kanemitsu to read him those reviews over the
phone,
because he could no longer bear to read them himself).
The knowledge that "we're all
going to die" was why he wrote, he
said,
and it was the hardest knowledge of all for him to bear. Ginsberg
shared
this with Jack. The very mention of
death would send cold shivers
through
Ginsberg--I witnessed this a couple of times.
They both FELT the
pain of
man's mortality far more than most of the people walking this earth.
To stay
alive and keep feeling that deeply, Jack had to drink. For Allen,
sex,
fame, and crazy antics worked for a while; at the end, Tibetan Buddhism
helped
Allen keep his balance, but he was still--in my view--far too
dependent
on the adulation of thousands to help him bear that pain.
That is not to fault Allen, any more
than I can fault Jack for his
drinking. I'm not here to judge either of them; and
certainly the
sensitivity
to the human condition they shared, and the spiritual
exploration
they did for all of us, is something for which to be very
grateful.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:38:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: drugs and epiphany
I see a
lot of evidence of marijuana-like sensations in Jack (and Ginsberg's)
work. You know, that feeling when looking at an
ordinary object, "Wow I
never
saw it that way before! Now i suddenly
understand!"
But
who's to say it's because of drugs? The
thing about the sixties is that
now, 30
years later, we take those kind of micro- and macro-perceptions for
granted
more than we used to. But they've
always been there in books and
art.
(as for
kerouac and alcohol...it's not easier to write when you're F***ed up,
even
though it does make you more relaxed, it's a psychological crutch that
keeps
you from investing all of yourself in your work because you're afraid
and not
confident in your ability as an artist) (i had similar experience
with
painting and other substance)
Before
i ever smoked pot, I already saw things
that way. If you are a
writer
or painter you naturally see things that way.
You can stare at an
object
and loose all sense of time and just trip out on it, that's how you
study
things and decide how you want to represent them. That's just how you
really
SEE them.
So
there's only a limited amount of ways of perception that drugs can show
you. This applies to all kinds. Trust me, you name it i've
sniffed/smoked/shot/drunk/inhaled/swallowed
it. Except peyote, but i'm not
in the
mood for a hard-core freak-out. Anyhow,
drugs might make you more
aware
of a thought-process, but that process was already there in the first
place. If you use drugs for creative inspiration or
whatnot, just think of
how
many thought-processes you might be missing, 'cause you can only see the
ones
you get from drugs.
It's much better to take the insights you got
from knowing how the drug
works
on your brain, and when you're sober, make yourself really listen to
your
thoughts and perceptions. It's kind of
like meditation of sorts. Once
you are
absolutely aware and conscious of every thought in your head, you
will
have a thousand epiphanies at once, and i guarantee you will never run
out of
inspiration.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:51:48 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
In a
message dated 97-06-14 12:43:55 EDT, you write:
<< Maybe that leads to some more questions
about how
Ginsberg and Burroughs survived and Kerouac
did not. >>
I have
heard and firmly believe that heroin use over a prolonged period of
time
actually slows down the aging process.
Hence the long life of Burroughs
and
Hunke the Junky. (of course one should
avoid OD for this to stand) It
does
things to your nervous system (relaxes certain elements and stimulates
others)
so that your metabolism changes and time sort of slows down for your
body. Bodily processes slow down. It's like a preservative of sorts.
----------------just
an idea------------------------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:58:03 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a
message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:
<<
But, more seriously, and only peripherally
beat related, if there is no
meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or
isn't), but assuming there isn't
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with
what McVeigh was convicted of
doing? >>
Ok,
there's no MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least, that
all
humans are part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from his
species,
and therefore harming another human means harming the species, and
that
goes against our basic biological instinct and is therefore translated
into
"morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:05:26 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
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>
Marioka7@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 97-06-13 14:11:48 EDT, you write:
>
>
>
> <<
>
> I have often wondered why Jack
drank so much if he had actually touched
>
> the wonderfulness of the universe
in this way. Why was he able to write
>
> about such things but not be more
positive in living his own life?
>
> Ginsberg went through much
darkness but remained positive in living and
>
> in writing.
>
> DC
>
> >>
>
> maybe he wasn't as great as some think.
didn't he die at home where he was
>
> living with his mom or something?
i used to romanticize tragedy and
>
> self-destruction but now i see that it is a sign of weakness. Probably
>
> because i almost self-destructed myself, i see that there's no good in it
and
>
> nothing to admire.
I don't
see it so much of a sign of weakness as being stuck in a journey.
The
writers we are talking about were disillusioned about themselves to
some
extent, disillusioned about America, and at certain times didn't see
much
hope in the situation. Their writings,
however, reflect a certain
brightness
in the moment, a way to celebrate their own lives and that of
America. When I went to college, it seemed like
everyone pursued
self-destruction,
me included, and the idea was that the only way to be
creative,
to write or whatever, was to engage the darkest part of the
soul,
and from the darkest moments came the best writing.
Thankfully
most of us moved out of the idea that to write means to
self-destruct. That's why I think Ginsberg is such a good
example
of what a person can achieve over the course of a
lifetime. He touched the darkest parts of himself but
came
through
them. When I was in college everyone
was reading Sylvia Plath
and Ann
Sexton, and following their somewhat hopeless paths. To think
that
you have to be self-destructive to be an artist is absurd, but if
you are
the one caught in that hopelessness, it doesn't seem so at the
time.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:24:47 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: epiphany in Kerouac
Comments:
To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
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Is
HUNKE still alive? I haven't heard
anything from or about him lately.
Thanks.
At
02:51 PM 6/15/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-06-14 12:43:55 EDT, you write:
>
><< Maybe that leads to some more questions
about how
>
Ginsberg and Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not. >>
>
>I
have heard and firmly believe that heroin use over a prolonged period of
>time
actually slows down the aging process.
Hence the long life of Burroughs
>and
Hunke the Junky. (of course one should
avoid OD for this to stand) It
>does
things to your nervous system (relaxes certain elements and stimulates
>others)
so that your metabolism changes and time sort of slows down for your
>body. Bodily processes slow down. It's like a preservative of sorts.
>
>----------------just
an idea------------------------------maya
>
>
Greg
Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:22:54 -0400
Reply-To: ProDuo@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: ProDuo@AOL.COM
Subject: written creative expression contest
Hello,
sorry to intrude on your e-mail. Just wanted
to know if you are
interested
in an opportunity to win house in Rhinebeck, NY by entering a fee
based
contest. If so, please e-mail us or go
to
http://www.wegrew.com/winahouse. If you can, we'd love to hear from you.
Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:24:52 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
DC:
>
Allen has recited some of Pound's greatest lines to me which indicates
>
certainly that aesthetic form (and you have to equate Pound with that) can
>
also be memorable words.
>
Charles Plymell
I would
have to agree that there certainly are memorable words in
aesthetic
form and also in what I hesitate to call, but will
call
formlessness. Certainly Pound had a
tremendous influence on
Ginsberg
as did Blake, and several other great poets.
But I also don't
see why
reciting Eliot to students to illuminate existential motifs would
be any
more effective than an introduction to the personal
consciousness/freedom,
angst/searching of beat writers.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:41:08 -0400
Reply-To: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carl A Biancucci
<carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Heroin as Youth Preserver?
In-Reply-To: <vines.47J8+Vj+8nA@S1.DRC.COM> from
"mARK hEMENWAY" at Mar 13,
97 09:14:53 am
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While I
find it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after
being
as heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with
the
idea that 'the big H' retards aging...
I had
the pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders
(guitarist
for The New York Dolls) in 1982.
At
30,he had liver spots!
Seen a
recent picture over the last 5 years (or more)
of Iggy
Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?
These
folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older
than
their years for quite some time;
I don't
think it's coincidence that each was/(is?)
a long
time H user.
I tip
my hat to any and all that can kicksmack
AND maintain some semblance
of
youth;I just don't believe it's a given.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:45 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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>James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
>
Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here. Much as I love
>
Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
>
things. I think he had an awful
influence on modern poetry, but "Love
>
Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty
damn
>
wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without Pounds
>
help. And what's wrong with a poet
being obsessed with "form" and being
>
"poetic"? Seems to me that
this is what poetry is about?
>
>
And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to
>
argue with.
>
> J
Stauffer.
Ah, but
see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
earlier
in the century. Is poetry about being
"poetic?" or is it
also
about something beyond that? Eliot
wrote wonderful poems, even I
agree
with that, even if I can't recite them from memory. But I think
the
argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
another. If Eliot had read Howl, would he have
thought it was poetic?
Hard to
say what dead men think, but I bet not.
Do you think Howl is
poetic? Do you think Kaddish is poetic? I do, but not for any of the
same
reasons that Eliot is poetic. Form does
not make one poetic.
Inspiration
makes one poetic. All poets are also
not visionaries,
doesn't
make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
consciousness.
Not every poet transends the framework of the time period
in
which he/her is writing. Blake was a
visionary. Whitman was a
visionary. Ginsberg was a visionary. Each of them was
poetic but took
poetry
to a level beyond poetic. I cannot
imagine comtemporary poetry
without
Ginsberg and the barriors he broke. I
simply cannot see Eliot's
contributions
in the same way.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:15:35 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:
>
>
<<
> But, more seriously, and only peripherally
beat related, if there is no
> meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or
isn't), but assuming there isn't
> what is wrong with what the Nazis did or
with what McVeigh was convicted of
> doing? >>
>
>
Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least, that
>
all humans are part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from his
>
species, and therefore harming another human means harming the species, and
>
that goes against our basic biological instinct and is therefore translated
>
into "morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.
If
there is truly no meaning to life, there is nothing wrong with what
the
Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh was convicted of doing. If
there
is no meaning, the universe is random and humans and their acts are
totally
random. There is nothing upon which to
base a moral choice.
There
is no right and wrong. In a no meaning
scenario, there is nothing
that
makes harming another human good or bad.
Biological instinct
would
be random. Nothing would be better or
worse than any other
thing. Humans would exist and die randomly, total
cause and effect, no
emotion.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:11:05 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a
message dated 97-06-15 18:17:13 EDT, you write:
<<
Maya Gorton wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13
EDT, you write:
>
> <<
>
But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
>
meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there
isn't
>
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted
of
>
doing? >>
>
> Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a
basic belief on my part at least,
that
> all humans are part of a whole, that the
individual is not separate from
his
> species, and therefore harming another
human means harming the species,
and
> that goes against our basic biological
instinct and is therefore
translated
> into "morally wrong" and we
cannot allow it.
If there is truly no meaning to life, there
is nothing wrong with what
the Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh
was convicted of doing. If
there is no meaning, the universe is random
and humans and their acts are
totally random. There is nothing upon which to base a moral choice.
There is no right and wrong. In a no meaning scenario, there is nothing
that makes harming another human good or
bad. Biological instinct
would be random. Nothing would be better or worse than any other
thing.
Humans would exist and die randomly, total cause and effect, no
emotion.
DC
>>
What do
you mean by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely. You oppose
it to
"randomness" and the absence of morality. But can't there be meaning
in
chaos and beyond the polarity of good and bad?
I guess
what i was saying is that there is no intrinsic Meaning common to all
humans. Nazis & Mcveigh however, to use your
examples, did not commit their
atrocitites
in the absence of meaning. On the
contrary, they had a clearer
purpose
and vision than most of us, sordid as it was.
If they thought there
was no
meaning to life, they probably wouldn't have done what they did.
It is up to each individual to invent a meaning
for life. In the absence of
any
meaning whatsoever, we lose the ability to act entirely. We wouldn't
even
eat, just sit and drool on ourselves and rot away. (I've been there
when
absurdity looms). Even acts of violence
need meaning behind them to
occur.
So,
yes, you're right in that their acts wouldn't be wrong, but I don't think
that
they would have done them in the first place if life had no meaning.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:29:11 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: lurker speaks
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DC,
Quoting Alexander Pope: "True ease in writing comes from art,
not
chance/
as those move easiest who have learned to dance"
(Essay
on Criticism) Let's see...you say that
TS Eliot is not
memorable?....off
the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/
breeding
lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring
dull
roots with spring rain/ Winter kept us
warm/ Covering earth in
forgetful
snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers" An astounding
beginning.....
I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th
C
lit..cross referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,
etc......and
I've never really had occasion to cross reference to
Ginsberg...I
think that speaks volumes. I also tend
to quote Eliot
when speaking to people on the topic of
despair/hopelessness...in real
life
situations.... (more later...kids are
fighting...life)
sorry
about how I triedto post this earlier...it didn't work obviously
(and I
still don't have quite enough time to expound on my ideas of
Pound
and Eliot.....hopefully tonight I'll get more than ten minutes at
a
stretch)
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:56:45 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell
<elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Heroin as Youth Preserver?
Comments:
To: carl@world.std.com
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At
04:41 PM 6/15/97 -0400, Carl A Biancucci wrote:
>While
I find it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after
>being
as heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with
>the
idea that 'the big H' retards aging...
>
>I
had the pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders
>(guitarist
for The New York Dolls) in 1982.
>At
30,he had liver spots!
>
>Seen
a recent picture over the last 5 years (or more)
>of
Iggy Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?
>These
folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older
>than
their years for quite some time;
>I
don't think it's coincidence that each was/(is?)
>a
long time H user.
>
>I
tip my hat to any and all that can kicksmack
AND maintain some semblance
>of
youth;I just don't believe it's a given.
To
quote Burroughs in JUNKY, he says, "I think I am in better health now as
a
result of using junk at intervals than I would be if I had never been an
addict...Most
users periodically kick the habit, which involves shrinking
of the
organism and replacement of the junk-dependant cells."
I'm not
sure if this is true and in no way back this up, due to the lack of
knowledge
in the science field. Burroughs goes on
to say that if you
continuously
shrink cells by continuing to kick the habit, you may perhaps
live to
a phenomonal age, because you'll constantly be growing.
I DON'T
KNOW! I have seen pictures of some of
the people that you've
mentioned,
and you're absolutely right. But then
again, Burroughs is still
alive... It's interesting(I think).
Greg
Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:39:02 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Gerry's post on Kerouac
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Thank
you for such a fine post Gerry. I
always felt that Jack drank to
"dull"
the pain of his awareness. His mind
took in every little detail
and
seemingly forgot nothing. What a burden
to bear! Last Thursday
while
at Bancroft, I was able to review and read some of Jack's letters
to
Lawrence Ferlinghetti. In one he said
that he prayed every night for
all
living things to enter heaven and that is the work of a man. I
believe
his work shows a "conflict" that would be natural for a devoute
Catholic
who realized there was more to spirituality than the man made
church.
I
appreciate the thoughts and comments Gerry.
Peace
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:46:35 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
Ah, but see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
>
earlier in the century. Is poetry about
being "poetic?" or is it
>
also about something beyond that? Eliot
wrote wonderful poems, even I
>
>
agree with that, even if I can't recite them from memory. But I think
>
>
the argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
>
another. If Eliot had read Howl, would
he have thought it was poetic?
>
>
Hard to say what dead men think, but I bet not. Do you think Howl is
>
poetic? Do you think Kaddish is
poetic? I do, but not for any of the
>
>
same reasons that Eliot is poetic. Form
does not make one poetic.
>
Inspiration makes one poetic. All poets
are also not visionaries,
>
doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
>
consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time
>
period
> in
which he/her is writing. Blake was a
visionary. Whitman was a
>
visionary. Ginsberg was a visionary.
Each of them was poetic but took
>
>
poetry to a level beyond poetic. I
cannot imagine comtemporary poetry
>
>
without Ginsberg and the barriors he broke.
I simply cannot see
>
Eliot's
>
contributions in the same way.
> DC
It
would seem to me that more than anything, Allen G broke the
stranglehold
that the academicians had on poetry and opened the door for
more
natural poetry. During my visit with
Norse I asked him about this
and he
quoted me Eliot. He said that Eliot and
WSB are much the same in
voice
but that Eliot went English and WSB remained American in voice.
He also
said that it was no sin that Pound edited Eliot and that he had
edited
many of the beats, including Allen and that it was very painful
to
Allen. I am sorry to appear to name drop
this, but I asked him as I
wanted
to bring it to the list and he gave me permission to pass it
along. Harold is going to check with some friends
to see if they can
help
him get on the list. He said he would
like that very much as he
can not
get out in public much and has not spoken with Charles and Gerry
in a
while.
I do
not mean to sound melodramatic, but Norse is a giant in a small
body. I feel a changed person for the six hours I
spent with him.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:06:45 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>James Stauffer wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here. Much as I
>
love
>
> Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
>
> things. I think he had an awful influence
on modern poetry, but
>
"Love
>
> Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are
pretty damn
>
> wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without
>
Pounds
>
> help. And what's wrong with a poet
being obsessed with "form" and
>
being
>
> "poetic"? Seems to me
that this is what poetry is about?
>
>
>
> And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough
> to
>
> argue with.
>
>
>
> J Stauffer.
>
>
Ah, but see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
>
earlier in the century. Is poetry about
being "poetic?" or is it
>
also about something beyond that? Eliot
wrote wonderful poems, even I
>
>
agree with that, even if I can't recite them from memory. But I think
>
>
the argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
>
another. If Eliot had read Howl, would
he have thought it was poetic?
>
>
Hard to say what dead men think, but I bet not. Do you think Howl is
>
poetic? Do you think Kaddish is
poetic? I do, but not for any of the
>
>
same reasons that Eliot is poetic. Form
does not make one poetic.
>
Inspiration makes one poetic. All poets
are also not visionaries,
>
doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
>
consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time
>
period
> in
which he/her is writing. Blake was a
visionary. Whitman was a
>
visionary. Ginsberg was a visionary.
Each of them was poetic but took
>
>
poetry to a level beyond poetic. I
cannot imagine comtemporary poetry
>
>
without Ginsberg and the barriors he broke.
I simply cannot see
>
Eliot's
>
contributions in the same way.
> DC
DC:
In Love
Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and
what
that means to our souls. He was part of
what opened the door for
Allen,
WSB and many more. Perhaps he became
"affected" or perhaps his
great
works number only a few, but what he said in the one poem is
astounding,
especially if you look at the period.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:30:10 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NOW
In a
message dated 97-06-14 04:40:57 EDT, you write:
<<
I stuck that copy of GRIST in an envelope and have it ready to mail off
'cept I
can't find where I put it! Soon as I find it,
it's yours. Wondered if you
were
interested in writing out a part of
Apocalypse Rose for me in trade as that
is
one of my favorite poems. I'd like to frame
it for my own "poetry musuem."
>>
Dave:
I'd
love to do a little collage and script of the Apocalypse Rose poem.
Though
Dave Haselwood did such a wonderful job on his turn of the century
hand
set letterpress edition it is hard to beat. And I don't have a very good
script
hand like S. Clay or Robert Crumb but I'll try something. You'll have
to
memorize the whole Apocalypse Rose poem thought (just kidding).
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:34:17 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In a
message dated 97-06-15 01:20:52 EDT, you write:
<<
And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to
argue with.
>>
Well,
I'm sorry. I forgot about Blakes songs. I thought everyone knew them by
heart.
I used to dramatize and recite TIGER for K thru 5th grade at local
school.
I thought all teachers and parents did that. I'd forgotten how things
changed.
I went to a one room schoolhouse during those grades. The teacher
made me
stand in the corner and memorize poetry all the time for being bad.
One day
she mader me go oustide to "find my thinking cap" I brought to her an
old
dried animal turd.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:05:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: drugs and epiphany
In a
message dated 97-06-15 14:45:22 EDT, you write:
<< Except peyote, but i'm not
in the mood for a hard-core freak-out.
>>
Peyote
has a soft core actually. Used to send for a carton of hundred plants
back in
Kansas in the 50s. It was just that
flesh-like consistency and the
taste.
Just thinking about the taste sent shivers through. My old peyote
eating
buddy used to say: "it tastes like bile from the devil's asshole."
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:14:38 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pickled old souls
In a
message dated 97-06-15 14:59:25 EDT, you write:
<<
Bodily processes slow down. It's like
a preservative of sorts.
>>
Yeah
they're both beautifully pickled old souls. You just got to know your
intake
and watch your metabolism. No foolishness or you'll be fucked.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:17:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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i must
say i'm enjoying this.
i've
been grappling with a sense of pointlessness recently. i can't say
that it
has encouraged me to bomb or root for McVeigh.
but i can't say
that
i've been in a condemning mood either.
derek
had an interesting insight the other day that "pointlessness" and
"meaninglessness"
are sisters but not twins. i'm not
certain if he
thought
of it or i did or if it hit us both as our fingertips slashed
ferociously
at our keyboards.
obvious
that different notions of "meaning" "Meaning"
"MEANING" are at
play. not to downplay the moralists, but i hope
that there is more of a
point
to life than in condeming the acts of Hitler, McVeigh, Custer and
the
slavetraders. if the meaning of life is
derived from NOT doing
something,
sitting and drooling might be about as meaningful as
Einsteinian
genius. if i ramble as you read this it
is to be expected,
it is
difficult to come to a point, let alone a clear one, when it the
grips
of pointlessness.
but i
do enjoy the discussion.
i
thought Gerry Nicosia was ON TARGET (was it in this thread - i don't
really
recall) - in mentioning the notion of "sensitiveness" and i liked
that
the sensitiveness is connected to mortality but also connected to
sight
... it seems the loss of death is made greater by the beauty
witnessed
in the mortal world.
of
course, none of this may make any sense and i am more than willing to
accept
that critique.
i must
say though that the meaning of life may best be experienced on a
stoop
watching a Kansas thunderstorm roll in.
The soul of the universe
opens
up and weeps all over us here on the plains.
and the point of
life
may be found at the tip of a lightning bolt.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-06-15 18:17:13 EDT, you write:
>
>
<<
> Maya Gorton wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13
EDT, you write:
> >
> > <<
> >
But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
> >
meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there
>
isn't
> >
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted
> of
> >
doing? >>
> >
> > Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a
basic belief on my part at least,
>
that
> > all humans are part of a whole, that
the individual is not separate from
>
his
> > species, and therefore harming another
human means harming the species,
>
and
> > that goes against our basic biological
instinct and is therefore
>
translated
> > into "morally wrong" and we
cannot allow it.
>
> If there is truly no meaning to life, there
is nothing wrong with what
> the Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh
was convicted of doing. If
> there is no meaning, the universe is random
and humans and their acts are
> totally random. There is nothing upon which to base a moral choice.
> There is no right and wrong. In a no meaning scenario, there is nothing
> that makes harming another human good or
bad. Biological instinct
> would be random. Nothing would be better or worse than any other
> thing.
Humans would exist and die randomly, total cause and effect, no
> emotion.
> DC
> >>
>
>
What do you mean by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely. You oppose
> it
to "randomness" and the absence of morality. But can't there be meaning
> in
chaos and beyond the polarity of good and bad?
>
> I
guess what i was saying is that there is no intrinsic Meaning common to all
>
humans. Nazis & Mcveigh however, to
use your examples, did not commit their
>
atrocitites in the absence of meaning.
On the contrary, they had a clearer
>
purpose and vision than most of us, sordid as it was. If they thought there
>
was no meaning to life, they probably wouldn't have done what they did.
>
> It is up to each individual to invent a
meaning for life. In the absence of
>
any meaning whatsoever, we lose the ability to act entirely. We wouldn't
>
even eat, just sit and drool on ourselves and rot away. (I've been there
>
when absurdity looms). Even acts of
violence need meaning behind them to
>
occur.
>
>
So, yes, you're right in that their acts wouldn't be wrong, but I don't think
>
that they would have done them in the first place if life had no meaning.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:41 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
Diane Carter wrote:
>
>
> >James Stauffer wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here. Much as I
>
> love
>
> > Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable
>
> > things. I think he had an
awful influence on modern poetry, but
>
> "Love
>
> > Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets"
are pretty damn
>
> > wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without
>
> Pounds
>
> > help. And what's wrong with a
poet being obsessed with "form" and
>
> being
>
> > "poetic"? Seems to
me that this is what poetry is about?
>
> >
>
> > And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough
>
> to
>
> > argue with.
>
> >
>
> > J Stauffer.
>
>
>
> Ah, but see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from
>
> earlier in the century. Is poetry
about being "poetic?" or is it
>
> also about something beyond that?
Eliot wrote wonderful poems, even I
>
>
>
> agree with that, even if I can't recite them from memory. But I think
>
>
>
> the argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to
>
> another. If Eliot had read Howl,
would he have thought it was poetic?
>
>
>
> Hard to say what dead men think, but I bet not. Do you think Howl is
>
> poetic? Do you think Kaddish is
poetic? I do, but not for any of the
>
>
>
> same reasons that Eliot is poetic.
Form does not make one poetic.
>
> Inspiration makes one poetic. All
poets are also not visionaries,
>
> doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of
>
> consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time
>
> period
>
> in which he/her is writing. Blake
was a visionary. Whitman was a
>
> visionary. Ginsberg was a
visionary. Each of them was poetic but took
>
>
>
> poetry to a level beyond poetic. I
cannot imagine comtemporary poetry
>
>
>
> without Ginsberg and the barriors he broke. I simply cannot see
>
> Eliot's
>
> contributions in the same way.
>
> DC
>
> DC:
>
> In
Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and
>
what that means to our souls. He was
part of what opened the door for
>
Allen, WSB and many more. Perhaps he
became "affected" or perhaps his
>
great works number only a few, but what he said in the one poem is
>
astounding, especially if you look at the period.
>
>
Peace,
>
> --
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
i guess
i'm gonna have to get off my illiterate ass and finally read
this
damn Love Song to Whomever. the way
people had always talked about
it, it
was easy to dismiss as Affected Trash without even giving it a
look. but the way it has been discussed here
recently, it sounds worth
more
than a quick glance. thanks for the
insights.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. i
realize that admitting i've not bothered to read such a work is
grounds
for stoning in some circles....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:28:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a
message dated 97-06-15 13:03:15 EDT, you write:
<<
They both FELT the
pain of man's mortality far more than most of
the people walking this earth.
>>
Gerry:
Yeah,
Tha't the whole thing really. Some have this "singularity flashback"
more
often and painful than do others. They know that the purpose and truth
will
not be revealed, so any path that works, take it. Religions become
arbitrary
at this point. Perhaps one of the limitations of the beat ethos may
be that
during their time in history, they had to deal with those
conventions.
In the postmodern transition into the next millenium the
abstraction
of religions may give way to how we can survive as humans. Pound
also
claimed when men were more like gods and women more like goddesses in
the
ancient world, they had more gods closer to them rather than abstracted
to form
as in formality; therefore, they began acting less like gods.
BTW I
still remember Allen's observation of "mechanized faces" of the 50's,
presumably
in Methodist and Baptist Ministers. I see those same faces in the
Naropa
hierachy as mentioned in those earlier post about drunken [fools]. Of
course
everything in life Hunter Thomspson shooting on T.V. (very original
redneck
stuff) to literary works are designed to keep us from thinking about
that
painful unaswerable singularity.
Now we
have gender correctness on the list after thousands of years! Boys and
girls,
I'm here to tell you that you have different pee-pees. Let's make it a
national
concern before this melinium closes!
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:28:48 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: seperated at birth?...
>list.
Hell yeah, Kerouac was gorgeous, everybody notices that, so what the
>fuck's
wrong with pointing it out, ya' know? People need to get a sense of
compeltely
off topic of the original message here, but I'm currently
reading
_Off the Road_, & there are pictures of both Kerouac & Neal
Cassady...now
this is compeltely superficial here, but am I the only one
who
thinks that the two guys look like they could be biological brothers?
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi
A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:36:16 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Heroin as Youth Preserver?
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Greg
Elwell wrote:
>
> At
04:41 PM 6/15/97 -0400, Carl A Biancucci wrote:
>
>While I find it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after
>
>being as heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with
>
>the idea that 'the big H' retards aging...
>
>
>
>I had the pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders
>
>(guitarist for The New York Dolls) in 1982.
>
>At 30,he had liver spots!
>
>
>
>Seen a recent picture over the last 5 years (or more)
>
>of Iggy Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?
>
>These folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older
>
>than their years for quite some time;
>
>I don't think it's coincidence that each was/(is?)
>
>a long time H user.
>
>
>
>I tip my hat to any and all that can kicksmack AND maintain some semblance
>
>of youth;I just don't believe it's a given.
>
> To
quote Burroughs in JUNKY, he says, "I think I am in better health now as
> a
result of using junk at intervals than I would be if I had never been an
>
addict...Most users periodically kick the habit, which involves shrinking
> of
the organism and replacement of the junk-dependant cells."
>
>
I'm not sure if this is true and in no way back this up, due to the lack of
>
knowledge in the science field.
Burroughs goes on to say that if you
>
continuously shrink cells by continuing to kick the habit, you may perhaps
>
live to a phenomonal age, because you'll constantly be growing.
>
> I
DON'T KNOW! I have seen pictures of
some of the people that you've
>
mentioned, and you're absolutely right.
But then again, Burroughs is still
>
alive... It's interesting(I think).
>
>
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
And
Keith Richards looks ancient until he touches his guitar and then
his
facial muscles are altered (by bodily memory perhaps?) and he
appears
transformed to a much much younger ghost.
unfortunately
acquaintances of Keith's like Gram Parsons now appear only
as
ashes on the winds of a desert.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:32:58 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments:
To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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1.0
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RACE
--- wrote:
<snip
a lot>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
>
p.s. i realize that admitting i've not bothered to read such a work is
>
>
grounds for stoning in some circles....
Well,
David, you know what kind of stoning you would get on the Dylan
list I
hope.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:40:04 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
One day she mader me go oustide to "find my thinking cap" I brought
to her an
>
old dried animal turd.
wonderful
tale.
i can
see you at the one room schoolhouse as the rains fall here on the
plains.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:51:23 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: lurker #254
Need to
send this to the list.
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: lurker #254
Date: 97-06-15 23:26:36 EDT
From: CVEditions
To: dcarter@together.net
In a
message dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:
<< All poets are also not visionaries,
doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who
are stuck in one plane of
consciousness >>
DC
Seems
like that old chliche really took hold. Hard to shake learnin'. Make
all
thingssequal, yeah. Have you read Michael Finley In The Temple?
http//www.wwics.com/~tsunami
Ask Charley
Potts (editor) about that poem he turned me on to. Or, we can all
play
catch up from the old beat generation...almost 50 yrs ago. Make in
newer?
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:53:43 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
> Boys and
>
girls, I'm here to tell you that you have different pee-pees. Let's make it a
>
national concern before this melinium closes!
> Charles
Plymell
Perhaps
in his own Arkansinian way this is what Billy Clinton was
"allegedely"
trying to show Paula.
3
cigarettes before i must brave the storm to score another pack.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:57:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: lurker #254
I don't
like this new mail system, it makes for too much extra work. Bill
can't
we go back to the old?
CP
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: Re: lurker #254
Date: 97-06-15 23:33:07 EDT
From: CVEditions
To: dcarter@together.net
In a
message dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:
<<
Inspiration makes one poetic. >>
DC
Read
any inspirational poetry recently? I get books of it in the mail. I'd be
glad to
send you some. Most of them come from Arizona and Southern
California.
Lots of inspirational poets out there, too.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:57:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In a
message dated 97-06-15 23:28:07 EDT, you write:
<<
In Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and
what that means to our souls. >>
Is that
the line "but as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a
screen"
I don't have the text. I used to know
the whole thing by heart. BTW
Tesla
memorized Twain's novels because books were scarce back in his country.
He
memorized Faust.too. That's how he came up with Alternating Current. We
use his
memory tonight!
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:37:59 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Insomniatic Musings #45
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>From
FireWalk Thru Madness Collection, copyright December 1992 David B.
Rhaesa
YAHTZEE
Rolling
dice on Madonna=92s Face, Helter Skelter by my side (the book not
the
song). Billie Holiday sang autumn blues
with Louis Armstrong and
Tofu
burgers and sqaush that was fun to make but we didn=92t eat it. Her
first
kitchen failure. It happens to the best
of us ... Failures.=20
there=92s
no success like failure and failure=92s no success at all. Dyl=
an
said
that. The squash sat in the frij for
quite awhile. She couldn=92t
bear to
waste it ... But secretly she believed that it would age like a
good
wine. Or that after some bad wine it
might taste like a sweet
success.
North
says most Americans believe Charlie was a mass murderer - But he
didn=92t
do the deeds. Not Tate ...Not
LaBianca. Charlie Manson/Not
Charlie
Starkweather And the Boss said it was because =93there=92s a
meannness
in this world.=94 But those weren=92t
Charlie=92s words ... Ju=
st
the
Boss pretending to be Charlie. Like on
Halloween....The only day
we=92re
encouraged to be somebody else. The
only day we=92re encouraged =
to
go
beyond our personality. I put my name
in a drawing at Taco Bell to
see the
Boss on Halloween in Minneapolis where Dylan started out. I
wonder
who the Boss will be for Halloween this year.
I=92d
like to talk to Charlie Manson. The
documentary showed his defense
attorney
and Bugliosi and Charlie and I had to feel inside like Bugliosi
was
crazier than Charlie. I=92d really like
to meet him you know I
haven=92t
admitted that to many people. So much
of what he says makes
sense,
but I just don=92t understand the anger, the violence I want him
explain
the anger to me. Depressives have anger
that they don=92t feel
they
deserve to have. Mass murdereds feel
they deserve anger that they
don=92t
have ... Random anger. Random
killings. And I want to ask
Charlie
why. His lawyer says that there was a lot
of love on the farm.=20
But why
does the love get criss-crossed with hatred, with bigotry. What
synapses
aren=92t firing. What combination of
chemicals is out of
balance....in
Charlie ... in Bugliosi and why was he the one fate chose
for
such a chemical makeup, for such a tragic role rather than me.
Yahtzee!!!
I=92m
rolling dice on Madonna=92s face and listening to Nine Inch Nails
drive
their spikes through my soul while I think of the Boss again.=20
Just a
roll of the dice. Like Yahtzee. Like Nietzsche. Like Mallarme
=93Un
Coup De Das=94 It=92s just a roll of
the dice - the difference bet=
ween
Charlie
and me, Charlie and you - Manson or Starkweather. It=92s random
chance. Fate.
Rolling
on Madonna=92s face and Lady Madonna looks up and says what are
the
odds of a virgin birth? and the mathematician and the biologist say
zero
and the priest says miracles can happen just like accidents in
disguise. Then she tells me that Yahtzee isn=92t
completely random. I
hear
Burroughs query =93How random is random?=94
As I flash on the
sensitive,
new age, marathon man who believes =93there are no accidents.=94=
=20
I think
Seth told him that in a book. I fool
with him by declaring that
my
philosophy is =93there are only accidents.=94
Belief in complete
non-randomness
and in complete randomness - Marathoner in contrast to
chain
smoker and only the smoker knows that they=92re really saying the
same
thing. There may be no accidents but it
seems like there are only
accidents. We know so little of what we know that what
seems accidental
isn=92t
and what seems incidental isn=92t and God is a Bullet or is God d=
ead
and
have we killed him. They said Dylan was
God. But I think they were
joking.
And
Kerouac=92s Dead. Lying over there on
the floor. Dead 23 years and
two
days. And gazing into his eyes I see
Pooh Bear. Was it on a night
like
this that he said God was Pooh Bear or that Hoffman started the Tao
of
Pooh? And if God is Dead does Nietzsche
believe Pooh is dead too?=20
And if
he=92s dead who will say =93Oh Bother,=94 and who will eat the hon=
ey.
A used
copy of =93Howl=94 on the porch where my patch sister smokes a pip=
e.=20
Before
the water ritual cleansed it from her.
The best minds of a
generation. Minds lost somewhere between the monotony of
the fifties
and the
monotony of the nineties. Are you
bored? I asked the lost
minds,
the best lost minds of a geenration, lost esarching for a place
where
life can have meaning somewhere between interzone and Casablanca
they
walk aimlessly searching for something that doesn=92t exist ... the
bliss.
The
best minds of a generation, the lost generation, Veblen=92s Theory of
the
Leisure Class, the lost generation is real and it=92s still around
playing
games on hardwood floors listening to jazz rolling dice while
the
working class work their work, hardwood floors with Helter Skelter
and
Kerouac for carpet and Burrough=92s tape still unexplored.
Cut
ups. Finding the lost generation in
interzone by cutting through
the
present, cutting through the New York Times, cutting through the
King
James Version, cutting the the Pope=92s picture like Sinead O=92Conn=
or
one
Saturday Night. I cut up the Supreme
Court in my closet last fall
and
then Aunt Abby ended up working for O=92Connor
- Sandra not Sinead. =
=20
Sinead
says it=92s all about child abuse ... that=92s what she=92s say ab=
out
Charlie,
I bet. And how random is child
abuse? It is just a roll of
the
dice that says what child will be beaten will be fucked, a roll of
the
dice like a small straight better not take my chance yet I=92ll take
zero
for my large straight still hoping for a Yahtzee, like the Lottery,
the
Publisher=92s Clearinghouse, the Reader=92s Digest Sweepstakes to pul=
l
me out
of this trap, this tunnel. And if I
roll the dice or chant the
chants
the white witch taught me will I win the prize? If I do will it
be an
accident or destiny or both at the same time.
Randomness
and chaos. one wonders sometimes how
the mathematicians can
sleep
at night with their naive belief in probability. Last winter in a
maniacal
frenzy I wrote a note to the mathematician who I didn=92t yet
know. I asked a simple question:
=93What
is the probability that you are reading this right now?=94
Well,
one would have to determine the probability of me writing it and
you
finding it and both of those involve an infinite number of possible
options,
alternatives, like if i=92d decided to watch Saturday Night Live
tonight
instead of writing these random words, and as the probability
approaches
a solution you hear that your grandfather was almost killed
escaping
from the firing squad of a Nazi concentration camp and my
ex-wife=92s
mother knew people who knew Charlie Starkweather and maybe I
would
have stopped in Rulo Nebraska and been killed by the creatures who
pass
for people there...and so you decide that the odds are infinity to
one or
one in infiinity and you realize that I have a greater chance of
winning
the Reader=92s Digest Sweepstakes than of you reading this note
and you
close your math book and head for a nudist colony where you can
read
poetry and surf with monkeys, an artist colony randomly created, a
genetic
accident and you wonder about things and accidents.
And
Dylan and the Dead are riding on the Slow Train and Knockin=92 on
Heaven=92s
Door and it brings you back to the hardwood floor and my brain
hurts
from the storms of past/present/and future.
The coffee is gone.=20
I drink
it black. Straight poison. Like Arsenic in Elderberry wine -
Jonathan,
Aunt Abby and Charlie drinking wine with Pooh Bear and Piglet
and the
dice roll and Wendy dies, Peter Pan dies and the Voodoo can=92t
save
them. it=92s random, it=92s accidents
-- or not
Which
dice will you choose to roll next time?
Kerouac=92s
dead on the floor. Charlie=92s dead in
a prison. Kennedy is
dead. And Dylan and the Dead are on break and
Billie Holiday is singing
about
Wishes and Stars and Moons. Why doe we
wish if there are no
accidents? I wonder out loud. And I ask Kerouac to tell me the answer
- but
he=92s dead on the floor ... and i=92m in the attic and the VCR is
downstairs
and I still can=92t figure out how to make it stop flashing
12:00
like on the cartoon this morning, but I thought i=92d be seeing a
Yellow
Submarine by now, As I pound th keys wishing for an accident with
her,
but Elvis says accidents will happen, I guess you don=92t wish for
them
they just hit you when you aren=92t looking, and she hands me a new
scorepad
and I can=92t quite understand why there=92s no sex in this drea=
m,
yet and
she puts on the Carpenters =93Close to You=94
And it=92s time to=
play
Yahtzee
again.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:02:15 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: drugs and guns
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I have
nothing to say about drugs and guns and the beats, but i do know
that
catholism and drink are old buddies, and guilt and loving the
sunrise
somehow go together. The really great
writers often start
drinking
the hard stuff at 5, then they taper or they die.I don't think
it
means squat about the validity of their vision or light. I also
can't
imagine not remembering some of Blake because one loved another
poet.
But life is past imagining , i am continually amazed. The saving
of ones
light to me has been humour humor, humus , humor will get you
through
nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no
humor.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:00 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: drugs and guns
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
humor will get you
>
through nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no
>
humor.
> p
Patricia,
Thanks
a lot for that one. I get confused at
times as to which is more
important--sex
or humor. Prefer both, but now I am
reminded of where my
priorities
should lie, so to speak.
And
isn't it nice to see this list actually being interesting again.
Like a
Phoenix from the ashes. Thank God.
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:22:04 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: drugs and guns
MIME-Version:
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
James Stauffer wrote:
>
>
>
> Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
>
>
> humor will get you
>
> > through nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no
>
> > humor.
>
> > p
>
>
>
> Patricia,
>
>
>
> Thanks a lot for that one. I get
confused at times as to which is more
>
> important--sex or humor. Prefer
both, but now I am reminded of where my
>
> priorities should lie, so to speak.
>
>
>
> And isn't it nice to see this list actually being interesting again.
>
> Like a Phoenix from the ashes.
Thank God.
>
>
>
> J Stauffer
patricia
typed
>
well variety helps a lot. I have the
edie book upstairs, not yet
>
mailed. but this week for sur. i just
reply and hence lose any of the barbs
and roses that spin off of our remarks. some of the best threads have been the
unexpected turn of the screw.
p
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:31:20 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: more drugs and enlightenments
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
In a
message dated 97-06-16 01:10:29 EDT, you write:
<<
All well and good to say, but you would
probably not even value this
kind of experience if you had not learned to
from a drug based culture.
Unless you had learned to value ephiphany
from Catholicism or the
meditative experience from Buddhism. It comes from either drugs or
religion.
We can all do it, but learning to value it is not a given.
James
>>
Indeed,
i was into Buddhism way before i ever experimented with substances.
But my only interest in enlightenment was as
a way to gain insight into
being a
better painter and sculptor. Here in
the US, drug use is so rampant
and
widespread and has been going on for so long that we can no longer
separate
its influence from out culture, especially in the arts.
As for
existentialism, why do you see it as incompatible with
epiphanies/rediscovering
your child-mind? For me, existentialism
goes with
these
things. Stripping things down to the
bare absurd bleakness of it all,
and
just when you're about to let go and stop bothering to breathe, you
suddenly
find something really really small that reminds you why you want to
live, a
stirring in your mind, and that is the most essential form of
enlightenment
ever. In fact, I sincerely believe that
existentialism and
"enlightenments"
need each other to form a soul capable of minimal wisdom.
I see many connections between Sartre and
buddhist enlightenment, for
instance. Many writers in the post-war era were
horribly dismal but through
all the
despair the beauty of words still came through, even stood out more
in
contrast, giving hope. And showing a
playfulness that some would
wrongfully
attribute to drugs. And you bet they valued it. In my opinion,
the
best artists have always valued epiphanies, from the beginning of time.
There are spontaneous enlightenments in the
act of creating something that
come
neither from drugs nor from religion.
Profane illuminations.
Of
course, learning to value them is not a given.
But using drugs as a tool
to
access them is a specious method.
Because as i said earlier, there are
many
ways of seeing things that are not inducible by drugs. And drugs can
make
your mind take paths you don't really want to take, (or that seem ok
when
you're high but reread later they're shallow and obvious) thereby
fucking
up your work, whether it's writing/painting/whatever. I guess that'
s not
true for things other than pot and acid. Amphetamines and other uppers
make it
hard to concentrate though, i find. The
only drug that i have ever
found a
pleasant and stimulating companion for working is heroin (and opium
too i
guess). I have never had much trouble
producing lots of stuff really
fast. And I don't think that heroin has had as
powerful a cultural impact as
the
rest....well, obviously it has on me.
But it affects a deeper layer of
consciousness
than the others.
So anyway, there are my thoughts for the
evening...have a good
night-------------------------------maya
PS...there
i go opening my big mouth again. i
wonder if this means the
thought-police
are going to send their internet-spies on my trail now for
talking
too much!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:40:20 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: inspiration
MIME-Version:
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>
<< Inspiration makes one poetic. >>
> DC
hmmm...I
muse that inspiration makes one an artist...perhaps even
semi-divine,
but not necessarily a poet. Some
inspiriation could use
the
elbow-grease of 99% perspiration before it becomes a great "work".
Admittedly,
some works of genius flow...but not all logorrhea is great
art...and
I wouldn't categorize much of it as poetry.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:50:20 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: more drugs and enlightenments
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us
existentialists and us nihilists are compleated misunderstood. it
can
became disabiling literally. shun the
titles. i do not believe in
Nothing. does the double negative twist into I
believe in something or
is
something NOT the opposite of Nothing. I believe in thing perhaps.
that
might be a start. but belief and a
wooden nickel won't get you
water
at the bar down the street ... it is a good start to this who
shambadoozle
about ways of living - since we all seem to have life terms
and
death sentences. but only a beginning
and from these beginings the
paths
will undoubtedly diverge dramatically otherwise things would get
too
crowded and block awareness of the origins of the realization that
you
believe in thing when you say you don't believe nothing. inverting
and
twisting is sometimes necessary to slide past linguistic roadhouses
that
leave so many of us stranded on weekends like this. but the
roadhouses
aren't bad places to socialize in collective stuckness.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
>
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
>
> In
a message dated 97-06-16 01:10:29 EDT, you write:
>
>
<<
> All well and good to say, but you would
probably not even value this
> kind of experience if you had not learned to
from a drug based culture.
> Unless you had learned to value ephiphany
from Catholicism or the
> meditative experience from Buddhism. It comes from either drugs or
> religion.
We can all do it, but learning to value it is not a given.
>
> James
> >>
>
Indeed, i was into Buddhism way before i ever experimented with substances.
> But my only interest in enlightenment was as
a way to gain insight into
>
being a better painter and sculptor.
Here in the US, drug use is so rampant
>
and widespread and has been going on for so long that we can no longer
>
separate its influence from out culture, especially in the arts.
>
> As
for existentialism, why do you see it as incompatible with
>
epiphanies/rediscovering your child-mind?
For me, existentialism goes with
>
these things. Stripping things down to
the bare absurd bleakness of it all,
>
and just when you're about to let go and stop bothering to breathe, you
>
suddenly find something really really small that reminds you why you want to
>
live, a stirring in your mind, and that is the most essential form of
>
enlightenment ever. In fact, I
sincerely believe that existentialism and
>
"enlightenments" need each other to form a soul capable of minimal
wisdom.
>
> I see many connections between Sartre and
buddhist enlightenment, for
>
instance. Many writers in the post-war
era were horribly dismal but through
>
all the despair the beauty of words still came through, even stood out more
> in
contrast, giving hope. And showing a
playfulness that some would
>
wrongfully attribute to drugs. And you bet they valued it. In my opinion,
>
the best artists have always valued epiphanies, from the beginning of time.
> There are spontaneous enlightenments in the
act of creating something that
>
come neither from drugs nor from religion.
Profane illuminations.
> Of
course, learning to value them is not a given.
But using drugs as a tool
> to
access them is a specious method.
Because as i said earlier, there are
>
many ways of seeing things that are not inducible by drugs. And drugs can
>
make your mind take paths you don't really want to take, (or that seem ok
>
when you're high but reread later they're shallow and obvious) thereby
>
fucking up your work, whether it's writing/painting/whatever. I guess that'
> s
not true for things other than pot and acid. Amphetamines and other uppers
>
make it hard to concentrate though, i find.
The only drug that i have ever
>
found a pleasant and stimulating companion for working is heroin (and opium
>
too i guess). I have never had much
trouble producing lots of stuff really
>
fast. And I don't think that heroin has
had as powerful a cultural impact as
>
the rest....well, obviously it has on me.
But it affects a deeper layer of
>
consciousness than the others.
>
> So anyway, there are my thoughts for the
evening...have a good
>
night-------------------------------maya
>
>
PS...there i go opening my big mouth again.
i wonder if this means the
>
thought-police are going to send their internet-spies on my trail now for
>
talking too much!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:50:48 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a
message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU (Timothy K.
Gallaher)
writes:
<<
But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no
meaning to life (I'm not saying there is or
isn't), but assuming there isn't
what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with
what McVeigh was convicted of
doing? >>
When I
say there is no meaning to life, what I mean is that there is no
meaning beyond this life that you are living. That
doen't mean that this
life
isn't important. It makes this life more important. I just don't think
that
there is a greater purpose (that after we're dead that there's a reward
up in heaven, doing gods bidding etc).
And it
is because this is the only go around that what McVeigh did is so
terrible,
stupid and wrong. Under my belief structure, what McVeigh did was
much
more tragic because I don't think that the people who died have another
chance
(like in heaven or some other afterlife).
The
concept of heaven is like a safety net. It allows people to do a lot of
stuff
that they wouldn't normally do and allows them not to worry about the
consequences.
I think that if more people realized that there is no heaven or
afterlife,
they would understand that this life (that we are living right
now) is
sacred, and maybe do more to take take of it and treat it better.
enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:09:46 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
In a
message dated 97-06-16 00:19:35 EDT, you write:
<<
On the contrary, they had a clearer
purpose and vision than most of us, sordid as
it was. If they thought there
was no meaning to life, they probably
wouldn't have done what they did.
>>
I'm
glad someone can still put meaning into words.
Drool, drool.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:30:32 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker #254
In a
message dated 97-06-16 02:19:22 EDT, you write:
<<
Allen G broke the
stranglehold that the academicians had on
poetry and opened the door for
more natural poetry. During my visit with Norse I asked him about
this
and he quoted me Eliot. He said that Eliot and WSB are much the same
in
voice but that Eliot went English and WSB
remained American in voice.
He also said that it was no sin that Pound
edited Eliot and that he had
edited many of the beats, including Allen and
that it was very painful
to Allen. >>
Bentz
Yr.
right. Pound was first to bust 'em up, blasting 'em wit imagisms. Even
poor
old Frost had to go to him 'cause the academics at the time wdnt touch
him.
Then Allen and the beats, bless 'em busted the old canons that Frost
foddered,
but in a way held dearly to the academe and finally endorsed it
subscribed
to it, became it. Can't blame him though, Pam said he didn't have
social
security. Except he did become a millionare largely on the govt
funding
of the politics he damned. Something unheard of by Pound, or even Rod
McKuen,
who dug it out his own self. Even with inspirational poetry! Good
quote
with Norse. Yes, you have to be melodramatiic around him! He's right. I
think
I've read that bit of his somewhere. Both WSB & TS Eliot had that St.
Loius
voice and B developed it authentically American down to the midwestern
humor
Charles
Plymell.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:04:56 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: lurker #254
Comments:
To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-06-15 23:28:07 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< In Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics
>
and
> what that means to our souls. >>
> Is
that the line "but as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in
>
patterns on a
>
screen" I don't have the text. I
used to know the whole thing by
>
heart. BTW
>
Tesla memorized Twain's novels because books were scarce back in his
>
country.
> He
memorized Faust.too. That's how he came up with Alternating
>
Current. We
>
use his memory tonight!
>
Charles Plymell
Well he begins with what some might call
"beat" lyrical quality:
> Let us go then, you and I,
>When
the evening is spread out against the sky
>Like
a patient etherised upon a table;
>Let
us go, through certain half-deserted streets,
>The
muttering retreats
>Of
restless nights in one-night cheap hotels
>And
sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:
Then
does a cutsey thing with the fog=cat deal.
Then
begins the chant of time to murder and create
Leading
to the museum to the beginning of addressing the metaphysics by
pondering
time and our effects on the universe by participation:
>Do
I dare
>Disturb
the universe?
>In
a minute there is time
>For
decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.
> For I have known them all allready,
known them all --
>Have
known all the evenings, mornings, afternoons,
>I
have measured out my life with coffee spoons;
>I
know the voices dying with a dying fall
>Beneath
the music from a father room
> So how should I presume?
Where
is this farther room? Remember the bus
Further? While it is
tempting
to consider perhaps a string quartet that is playing at a
museum
showing, I suspect that is the vehicle for the mermaids he hears
later,
this muse does come from a farther room.
Eliot then compares
himself
in time to a butterfly pinned and wriggling on the wall, and I
suspect
we all feel that current.
He then
goes back to sex, lonely men, self-depreciation and society til
he
returns to the theme of life, time, and museums (Think that Dylan
thought
of the line "Inside the museum, infinity goes up on trial, etc
without
Eliot, I think not, he "borrowed" it from Prufrock.)
>I
am no prophet -- and here's no great matter;
>I
have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,
>And
I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat and snicker,
>And
in short, I was afraid.
So
Eliot only tells us in short about his fearsome contact with death
and his
destiny and returns to address time and society and leading to
the
culmination of the questions involving our interchange and exchange
with
the field of energy, Charles this is the long way around to get to
your
question about the quotation, but for those who seem to think Eliot
is
lightweight, I wanted to show the structure and how he cleaverly
weaves
the metaphysical question around the life experience that brought
to his
mind the absurdity of the society that he had joined and chosen,
and the
inner knowledge he had of our roles as the co-creators:
>To
have bitten off the matter with a smile,
>To
have squeezed the universe into a ball
>To
roll it towards some overwhelming question,
....
>It is
impossible to say just what I mean!
>But
as if a magic latern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen:
>Would
it have been worth while
>If
one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,
>And
turning to the window, should say:
> 'That is not it at all,
> That is not what I meant, at all.'
Notice
first the implications of "I have bitten off the matter". The
poem
goes on to discuss the muses as mermaids luring Eliot to his death
if he
wants true poetry. The muses did lure
Jack, Neal, Jimi, Jim, and
otheres. Rimbaud ceased to write rather than follow
them.
But the
poem addresses it all when discussing what our "energy is" to
roll
the world into a ball, and as Socrates said, we see the shadows on
the
wall from the true light, not the true light and here Eliot address
it and
the transitory nature of time and the temporal world.
I think
an amazing tour de force that stretches into Dylan and beyond.
> I should have been a pair of ragged
claws
>Scuttling
across the floors of silent seas.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:38:46 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
In-Reply-To: <33A42667.771F@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
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At
05:29 PM 6/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>DC,
> Quoting Alexander Pope: "True ease in writing comes from art,
not
>chance/
as those move easiest who have learned to dance"
>(Essay
on Criticism) Let's see...you say that
TS Eliot is not
>memorable?....off
the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/
>breeding
lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring
>dull
roots with spring rain/ Winter kept us
warm/ Covering earth in
>forgetful
snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers" An astounding
>beginning.....
I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th
>C
lit..cross referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,
>etc......
I also find Eliot's voice
cross-referencing itself all over the place when
I'm
teaching twentieth-century literature.
I never have tried to rate
Eliot
over Ginsberg or vice versa. Their
poetic concerns are radically
different
(Eliot reaches to the metaphysicals, Ginsberg to the romantics)
and
their poetic criticism is radically different (Eliot decries what he
calls
Blake's "formlessness"; Ginsberg, meanwhile, hears Blake's voice as
an
inspiration after masturbating).
But their effects on their particular
generations--or, to be more
specific,
their *shaping* and *creation* of the generations in which they
lived
and worked--were more profound, I think, than any other poets of the
century. As far as I know, *Howl* and *The Waste
Land* are the only
twentieth-century
poems which have been published with their drafts in
their
entirety in facsimile editions. Please
someone correct me if I'm
wrong. I turn to this point about facsimile
editions to try to establish a
connection
between the effect these two poets had on readers throughout the
century.
Ginsberg seems as self-consciously
"poetic" as Eliot . . . mabye even more
self-consciously
poetic, because *Howl* came under such vicious attack from
defenders
of decorum (often academic, but of course not always). He
carefully
footnotes most of his collections, and in this way communicates
the
literary, cultural, religious, and political influences he writes
within
and against. Like Eliot, Ginsberg's
prose, essays, footnotes, and
interviews
helped created his career nearly as much as his poetry did.
Allen's
footnotes in the facsimile edition of *Howl* are eloquent and
valuable
and, it seems to me, do an excellent job demonstrating that he was
working
toward--and working within--a poetic form.
Tony
P.S. I'm as guilty as anyone for forgetting at
times just how experimental
Eliot
was at the beginning of his career.
Just take a look at original
responses
to the *Waste Land* in the academic and popular presses--writers
either
hailed him as an avant-garde genius or as a fraud. I think we
(myself
included) too often confuse Eliot's tradition-minded and
decorum-minded
critical essays with the experimental form of his early poetry.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Blake
was astonished by his own imagination."
--Allen
Ginsberg
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:14:19 -0400
Reply-To: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter
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Beat
Friends. . .
My familiarity with HST is zip, zilch,
nada, nil, zero, cero, the big fat
goose
egg. But, while strolling the shelves
at my local video store, I
found
"Where the Buffalo Roam." Is it
worth my time?
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:24:49 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
In-Reply-To: <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>
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On Mon,
16 Jun 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
>
goose egg. But, while strolling the
shelves at my local video store, I
>
found "Where the Buffalo Roam."
Is it worth my time?
Of
course it is! Its Bill Murray! Its Hunter S. Thompson! What more can
you ask
for?
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:37:53 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments:
To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>
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On Mon,
16 Jun 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
> My familiarity with HST is zip,
zilch, nada, nil, zero, cero, the big
fat
>
goose egg. But, while strolling the
shelves at my local video store, I
>
found "Where the Buffalo Roam."
Is it worth my time?
Yes!
Great film.
HST
speaking at U of Kentucky commencement last week: "Washington was a bum,
Jefferson
was a bum ... Nixon was a liar, Reagan was a fool, Bush was a ...
My
attorney has just informed me that the hospitality tent has just
restocked
the Wild Turkey. I will continue my address there. ...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:48:12 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: drugs and guns
Comments:
To: pelliott@sunflower.com
In a
message dated 97-06-16 03:48:34 EDT, you write:
<< But life is past imagining , i am
continually amazed. The saving
of ones light to me has been humour humor,
humus , humor will get you
through nights of no sex but sex won't get
you through knights of no
humor.
p >>
Have
you ever seen the film, "Who framed Roger Rabbit?"?. It's actually a
very
trenchant film, about laughter and imagination (the cartoon characters)
fighting
against Doom (the evil guy who never laughs).
Laughter and dreams
are a
biological necessity without which we die.
If we are bitter and refuse
to
laugh at anything, we are hurting ourselves, preventing ourselves from
really
living.
---------------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:22:13 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: more drugs and enlightenments
Comments:
To: race@midusa.net
In a
message dated 97-06-16 06:38:01 EDT, you write:
<<
i do not believe in
Nothing.
does the double negative twist into I believe in something or
is something NOT the opposite of Nothing. I
believe in thing perhaps.
that might be a start. but belief and a wooden nickel won't get you
water at the bar down the street ... >>
Well, i
believe in everything, maybe that's it. But i don't act on it, cause
not all
of it is good. But it all exists. In
fact, every idea every human
ever
had exists, because it can be realized, whether in the past, present, or
future. Ideas don't die if they're communicated.
They have their own kind of
DNA. One little idea can be grafted into another
person's brain, where it
will
grow and perhaps mutate and turn into something different depending on
what
environment it grows in.
I have
to disagree with you....belief will get you everything. Be careful
what
you wish for, says Burroughs, you might get it. So while I believe in
good
and evil (evil being the things that lead me to near suicide, and good
being
the things that give me pleasure) I
also believe in selective thought
processes. What I mean is, if you believe that
everything exists all the
time,
like I do, you better be careful what you fantasize about.
Example: my boyfriend dumped me for a girl
he always said he hated. This
hurt me
alot. I took old letters he had written
me saying bad stuff about
her. I wrapped them up in a t-shirt of his that i
had. I also had a lock of
his
hair which he had goven me, so i put it in with the letters. I made a
little
voodoo doll and stabbed it in the stomach with a swiss army knife. 1
week
later he calls me and begs me to go out with him again (i refused). He
also
tells me that he has been having horrible stomach cramps and had to go
to the
hospital and throws up all the time and the doctors say it's a nervous
disorder
they can' t do anything about. The
question is...Should I feel
guilty
about this??? (he and that girl are now engaged).
Magic
is very real, my friends, and we are all potential shamans. So be sure
you are
careful what you think about, because the mere act of thinking it
could
make it real. Nothing exists until you
think it does.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:50:18 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Hunter
Comments:
To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>
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bruce
i think
dr.hunter referred to the movie as "a piece of crap". you decide
if you
wanna see it or not.
hahoo.
derek
On Mon,
16 Jun 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
>
>
Beat Friends. . .
>
> My familiarity with HST is zip,
zilch, nada, nil, zero, cero, the big
fat
>
goose egg. But, while strolling the
shelves at my local video store, I
>
found "Where the Buffalo Roam."
Is it worth my time?
>
>
Bruce
>
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:49:56 -0400
Reply-To: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Eliot & Ginsberg
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I was
glad to come back from the weekend and read all the really fascinating
discussions going on - I wish I had
been
able to take part, it's things like this that really make the Internet fun.
On
Eliot and Ginsberg - I've always found it slightly strange that Ginsberg
admires Eliot (which is the impression I get
from
the list, anyway), because Ginsberg was influenced so heavily by Williams,
and Wiliams specifically mentions
Eliot
as an example to move away from - too formal, too academic, too British,
too many veiled references. Instead,
Williams
focused on creating an American poetry, based on American voices
relating singuarly American
experiences.
Ginsberg took this a step further, eventually finding his own voice
to relate his own experiences.
So,
open question - did Ginsberg ever
clarify this tension of admiring Eliot
somewhat, but being heavily influenced by
Williams,
who used Eliot as his example of everything _not_ to strive for in
poetry?
Mark
Noferi
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:28:48 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Epiphany in kerouac
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June
16, 1997
James
Stauffer wrote:
>It
would be nice to get Nicosia to answer what documented contacts there
>are. Kerouac had to be aware of those people as
he moved in Buddhist
>circles
with Kerouac and with East/West house people such as Lew Welch,
>Joanne
Kyger, Lorraine Kandel, Tom Field, etc. Watts was a huge presence
>in
SF in those years and Rexroth was also very knowledgable in Buddhist
>matters.
All I really know about Jack's meditative practice is what you
>get
in Dharma Bumms and Desolation Angels.
Would like to hear more
>facts
about his contacts from the biographical experts. But it is
>interesting
that what worked for say Snyder and Kyger, worked only
>partially
for Lew and Jack. Whatever they learned
sitting and Marin-An
>the
bottle was still too much for both of them.
And of course it is
>rather
judgmental to say that Jack and Lew failed.
Their lives were
>short,
and not particularly happy, but they left great work behind. All
>lives
are different. Of course Snyder, Kyger and Whalen followed up this
>time
with intense work in Japan.
>
Dear
James, Jean, and others:
I honestly don't remember if Kerouac
talked of meeting Watts, but
Watts
did write some nasty put-downs of Kerouac in his book BEAT ZEN, SQUARE
ZEN,
and ZEN. I'm going from memory now, but
I think the gist of Watts'
criticism
was that Kerouac was too much into kicks to be a true Buddhist,
that he
hadn't renounced sex and other pleasures enough and wasn't taking
his
Buddhism seriously in terms of a daily practice. Figure there might
have
been some jealousy there too, since Watts had been trying to popularize
Buddhism
for quite a while and never got the instant huge audience that
Kerouac
did with DHARMA BUMS. Rexroth surely
felt the same jealousy toward
Kerouac,
since he had been translating from Japanese and Chinese poets for
years. On the other hand, there is a lot to be said
for the fact that Jack
took
just as much as he needed from Buddhism--to minimize the pain of his
own
life--and left the rest. When I talked
with Snyder, his criticism of
Kerouac's
Buddhism closely echoed that of Watts'.
Snyder felt that Kerouac
had
been unwilling to "go all the way" with his Buddhism, and wouldn't
give
up the
God concept that true Buddhists are supposed to cut from themselves
with
the sword of the Diamondcutter.
Watts may have been a better Buddhist;
Kerouac more confused; but
clearly
Kerouac had the larger soul.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:03:07 -0400
Reply-To: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Robert H. Sapp"
<rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: my thoughts on the Ginsberg/Eliot debate
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'sup
y'all,
I
personally prefer Ginsberg's work on the whole, still i couldn't
classify
Prufrock and the Hollow Men as anything but - visionary - in my
definition.
I think
the ability to remember and recite lines of poetry from memory
is not
an adequate indicator of worth. I mean, i can remember lots of
commercial
slogans, but are they poetic? -- maybe they are... :)
"Image
is Nothing," Sprite's somehow fizzling effervescent Image of
Imagelessness,
hah!
nevertheless,
for me the most memorable and profound part of the
Wasteland
is just a two-word fragment:
Unreal
City
one day
i was pacing the living room in a haze meditating the validity o
reality
vs. surreality and. . . unreality . . . and suddenly i recalled
reading
Eliot's Wasteland a few days earlier in school, and i understood
what he
meant, or what I THOUGHT he meant, which after all is probably
more
important to a reader of poesy.
Whitman,
who i regard perhaps the greatest poet of 'em all, rarely,
though
occasionally, can i remember an actual exact written line sequence
of his
free verse, but i can think of the FEELING or the idea of it,
which
is more powerful.
well,
"In
U.S. all intellectuals are deviants." WSB, from The Yage Letters
(from
memory) hee hee hee...?!
if
anyone cares,
Eric
rhs4@crystal.palace.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:19:01 -0400
Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
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From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: A great song
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If
anyone has realaudio go to this address http://www.riversong.com/ and
listen
to the new song by folksinger Bob Martin called "Stella Kerouac" it
is a
real treat. Phil Chaput
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:31:04 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter
Reply
to message from stutz@DSL.ORG of Mon, 16 Jun
>
>
>HST
speaking at U of Kentucky commencement last week: "Washington was a bum,
>Jefferson
was a bum ... Nixon was a liar, Reagan was a fool, Bush was a ...
>My
attorney has just informed me that the hospitality tent has just
>restocked
the Wild Turkey. I will continue my address there. ...
>
Did he
really say this? I was reading a column
written by the "Minister of
Culture,"
Michael Heaton, in the Cleveland Plain Dealer Friday Magazine
which
was supposed to be quotes from commencement speeches given by the
famous....this
was one of them...I assumed Mr. Minister was making them up...
since I
have no clue who HST is to begin with, I couldn't judge...
Diane.
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi
A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza