=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:16:20 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Spirit present
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In
response to:
> I
am 43. I often regret that I am so young
and missed out on the
>
50's and the beats. Anybody else in
that predicament of feel that
>
way.
> Oh
well, as someone once said, somethings gained in living every
>
day.
> --
>
Peace,
>
Bentz
I am a
Montreal 20 year old poet. There are no regrets to having begun
my
journey a good 45 years after some of our 'courage-teachers'. The
spirit
is the main thing and is present.
Joseph
Neudorfer
neudorf@discovland.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:19:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Last of the Mocassins
James:
WELL,
thank you, man, if I do say so meself, as Neal usta say. I just got
home
from the Interstate again. It compresses in my head for weeks...not like
old
Route 66..Hell trip out west and back. Folks can't seem to live the greed
fast
enough. Passing all the filled cattle trucks in Dakota seeing the big
eye of
the beast stare at me through the railings on its way to slaughter and
all the
animals in rode kill around the Great Lakes..too many white cars in
Ohio.
Made me have a nightmare of red Irish setter impalled on Street sign. I
ran for
help. Then its puppy impalled. I never know what to do. I try to save
an
animal on the road and the driver looks at me while hitting it. Signs in
S.D.
saying they depend on animals for live and don't want any animal rights
people
around. They depend on them for capital greed mainly.
Passed
Little Big Horn and the monument for Custer. Wanted $6 to go up on the
hill. I
yelled Custer was a loser and National Monuments belong to the
people.
Keep your $6.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:24:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lom&DrSax
In a
message dated 97-06-18 02:30:17 EDT, you write:
<<
> Levi:
> Well, at least I particularly like my
image of Kerouac punching toward
> epiphany. If just that could be worked in
somewhere I think it's
important.
> It seems someone on the beat-l writing a
paper has zeroed in that word.
> Charley
Hey ... just wanted to give you an
update. I'm still working on
this, along with too many other projects (I'm
always very slow
to finish things, but I *do* eventually
finish.) Just didn't
want you to think I forgot. Talk to you soon ... how's
everything going? >>
Levi
has put my post on Dr. Sax on his site, if anyone is interested.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:24:13 EST
Reply-To: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MORE OXY THAN MORON
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Wasson
Does
anyone know if mushroom man Gordon Wasson is still alive? Thanks,
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:28:00 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit present
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neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>
> In
response to:
>
>
> I am 43. I often regret that I am
so young and missed out on the
>
> 50's and the beats. Anybody else
in that predicament of feel that
>
> way.
>
> Oh well, as someone once said, somethings gained in living every
>
> day.
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
>
> I
am a Montreal 20 year old poet. There are no regrets to having begun
> my
journey a good 45 years after some of our 'courage-teachers'. The
>
spirit is the main thing and is present.
>
>
Joseph Neudorfer
>
neudorf@discovland.net
not
certain i understand the purpose of all this BUT
according
to my birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
this
Earth.
but
time is a relative thing don't ya know :)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:44:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: traditionalism
I agree
with the post about memorizing. Maybe it's a spurious arguement. I
used to
memorize Burma Shave signs and limericks are meant for any dirty
minded
half-wit to repeat. The post about Ginsberg sayin ass? Well Chaucer
was the
first Englishman to write those vulgar things. About G's unedited
spontaneity.
Good advice. Yeats said something about getting it down while
it's
hot. How else wd he get those funny Kerouac oddities "perne in a
gyre"?
But
even G wouldn't let a word stay if he saw it differently re-reading it.
And
Whitman was the dirty old man with greatest compassion for anyone, any
religion,
even a soldier who was a Republican! Had the longer wind and
breath,
too. That's why it took Pound, the clarity nut, a long time to accept
him.
And Pound also sd Fucking in the Cantos, long before G.
So
don't take anything verbatum ergo dictum too seriously folks!
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:07:42 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: ReBirth Generation
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In
response to Maya's:
> I
just turned 22, have been out of college for 1 year now. But i
>
guess my generation, my friends i mean, are just as beat as beat can
>
be. I hope to take what we can learn
from the beats and push it one
>
step further (isn't that the duty of the next generation?) I would
> be
innerested to know about everyone else too.
I have tried to
>
guess, but am often wrong. See
ya----------------maya
I'm
with you Maya, up in Montreal, Kanada (Whitman spelling).
20
years old
McGill
University (History / English)
self-published
2 chapbooks Jan 1996 The Beginning of Something
Sept
1996 Mountain Tasting
(hopefully in Sept of 1997 And
Poet I Hero Be)
-twin
brother (David), both of us megalomaniacal poets spreading the
word
have been performing for 2 years in cafes,
clubs with the Rhythmic
Missionaries,
a jazzoetry ensemble (trumpet, saxophone, bass, violin,
drums,
kungas)
-my
brother has a piece titled "ReBirth Generation", that's what we are.
Audiences
drool at us, compare us to beats
that's o.k. don't let it
get to
the head must not define ourselves
(others will always lend a
hand was not Kerouac hesitant and alienated by
critics and
descriptions
of the Beat Generation?)
this is not new, but then again, it is just be, (even the
corporations
have it down, Just Do It Nike)
to be compared to the past is an honour, but
as you mentioned, we must
add our
own twist to the tradition i don't
even know if it's adding .
. . one
thing is for sure, the whole internet thing is new, imagine
anthologies
covering literary generations of the 21st century, no more
correspondence
through the post office but through !email!
-to
come back to our jazzoetry ensemble, only my brother and I don't
play
instruments, and the musicians all perform their poetry as well
it is
not a band, as the words remain supreme, rather it is a
conversation,
the music responding to the words, heightening the
emotions.
Hopefully you will have heard Kenneth Rexroth with jazz
accompaniment,
or Lawrence Ferlinghetti. The point here is that what
I've
heard is not that extraordinary. The poets and musicans separately
are
much more accomplished than any of us, but together they are not
convincing.
Credit must be given to the beats for combining the two art
forms
(poetry and jazz). In this respect, I see us as adding, but it is
only
another level, as dust accumulates.
-
RHYTHMIC MISSIONARIES : look in any thesaurus for rhythm, you will
find
beat. 'Missionary' brings out the image of Jesuits in South America
destroying
native traditions, that is the opposite of what we are about.
Combine
the two words and it is the spreading of the vibe, the spreading
of good
times, the rhythm native to all peoples, solidarity in
diversity.
i guess preachiness cannot be avoided Ginsberg was a prophet in the
line of
the Hebrew prophets (there is an element of tongue and cheek
that
Ginsberg admits, but there is also an element of truth) and so,
up here
in Montreal, the prophet line continues
Joseph
Neudorfer
neudorf@discovland.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:50:01 -0400
Reply-To: andrew szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: andrew szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Subject: Re: existential overdose.....leading to
withdrawal (just felt
likeposting it again)
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----------
: From:
Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
: To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
:
Subject: existential overdose.....leading to withdrawal (just felt
likeposting
it again)
: Date:
Wednesday, June 18, 1997 8:35 PM
:
: I SPY
WITH MY LITTLE EYE SOMETHING THAT BEGINS WITH BE
:
: IS IT
GOOD? IS IT BAD? DOES IT MAKE YOU SAD OR GLAD?
:
: I don't know, I don't care
: it doesn't touch me
(anywhere)
:
:
::climbs into stone sarcophagus, lies down facing upwards. slowly shifts
: heavy
slab into place.
:
::when the lid is securely in place, it is airtight, and totally dark.
:
: DO
YOU FEEL IT IN YOUR BRAIN? DO YOU FEEL
IT IN YOUR VEIN?
:
: i do not feel it here nor there! nor
ANYWHERE!
: NOT IN MY BRAIN
: NOT IN THE RAIN
: ALL IS IN VAIN
: I MUST BE
INSANE.............
:
:
::suddenly, suffocation::
: "For what dreams may
come---"
:
: As a matter of fact, it was one of those
"something horrible is
chasing
: me
and its going to kill me" dreams.
They say these dreams are the
peculiar
:
affliction of people who feel guilty about something, like when you're
:
avoiding a responsibility.
:
Anyway, I was running like a murderer...but from what?
: runnrunrunning running running running
simultaneously from and after
:
something but I couldn't tell what it was
: all I knew was I HAD to catch up with it
: or else...
: But it kept out of sight. It was just
around the corner, a corner I
had
: not
dared to round before. The corner kept
getting further and further
away,
: no
matter how fast I ran-- it was just beyond my reach. Running,
running...
:
:
NOTHING'S HAPPENING
:
: If I
could just see what it was...I HAD to know.
:
:
(running)
:
: I ran
past the Point of No Return. I only had
one drop of energy left.
: I was running on empty. "This is it", I thought. One drop left.
The
: final
stretch--after this, turning back is as good as death, I might as
well
: give
it one, last, final PPUUSSHH....
:
: !!THEN SUDDENLY!!
:
: OH,
NO! As soon as horrified recognition crept in, i tried to look away,
but
: it
was too late.
: I was
in it, surrounded by it, blinded, deafened by it.
:
: it
was the face of my mother
: her
face!
: She's
crying and it's my fault..
:
: In a convulsion of horror and fear and grief,
I howled.
: My
underwater dream over.
:
: The air I now had to breathe scorched my
lungs.
: I
felt like I was inhaling all the dust of the world.
:
: ~~~*~~~
:
: For three long days and three long
nights I twisted in agony as
forces
:
inside wrestled for control. Absolute
terror. Every nerve in my body
:
stretched to the maximum, a Tug-of-War against myself.
:
: A
most cruel and violent exorcism.
:
: Sleep seemed further away than the sun
is to the Underworld. And
the
:
COLD...
: A
thousand winters rushing through me.
:
: All the monsters and demons of Hell
laughed evilly as they watched
me
: turn
into ice. One cell at a time
chrystallizing. A chain reaction.
: I saw my imminent doom as just another
ice-statue in their trophy
:
gallery, fully conscious but forever cursed with the inability to
:
move...another victory for Doom.
: If only I could crawl out of this
too-tight skin...
:
: If I killed myself, it would be another
victory for them.
: And
my parents' grief...
: Could it be that I still loved? After
all?
:
: The Destroyer laughed.
"Fool!", said he, "Haven't you learned yet to
: cast
off that perfidious illusion?"
:
: "GO AWAY!", I screamed.
: I put
my hands over my ears and began to sing.
:
:
Destroyer: (laughs evilly)
: : (disappears in puff of smoke)
:
: Maya, or illusion, fighting for the most
insane idea she could dream
of,
: which
was to love.
:
: ~~~*~~~
:
: On the
4th day I finally reached Sleep.
: On
the 5th day, I awoke: 1.Consciousness
: 2.Opened my eyes
: 3.Stood up on my new
legs*
:
: *this took a long time. My new legs were
weak, since I was used to
:
swimming and not walking. I faltered
and was unsteady at first, but soon
got
: used
to it.
:
: On
the 6th day, the sun warmed me, and I decided it must be Spring.
:
: On
the 7th day, I looked at the world with my new sensory powers, smelled
it
: heard
it felt it, and I saw that it could be alright, sometimes.
:
: I
took a deep breath, inhaling all the colors, and began to write, paint,
: sing,
dance, wildly so that I would never again forget what it means to
be
:
alive.
:
: ~~~*~~~
:
If you
choose to enter the cave with professor Twangiri,
turn
to page 229.
If you choose to return to the boat
with Panga,
turn
to page 250.
If you choose to go to Arkansas, turn to
the next page.
sorry,
i saw my chance to fit this in with the rememberance of
those
damned "make your own story" books.
oh c'mon,
i *had*
to do it.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:11:51 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: traditionalism
In-Reply-To: <33A722BC.51B@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>
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Barbara
Wirtz wrote:
>>
>>
Diane Carter wrote:
>>
. . . Is it simply that you
>>
> are a more of a traditionalist in your world and literary views?
>>
> Ginsberg freed poetic language from the boundaries imposed by earlier
>>
> poets, including Eliot. He took poetry to another level. Is there
>>
> something about that level that bothers you?
>>
> DC
>Yes,
I am obviously more of a traditionalist...and to a degree sound is
>as
important as the images and messages in poetry...otherwise it might
>as
well be prose...a speech. And Ginsberg
does favor techniques used by
>orators
moreso than poets. Also...I don't think
poetry had been "bound"
>or
"enslaved" my sound devices....It is a kind of music where one may
>choose
from a plethora of devices. And
honestly, Ginsberg is lacking in
>that
area. I agree, his imagery and tone are powerful, but he relies
>heavily
on parallelism and cataloging, but he never achieves the cadence
>of
Whitman. Albeit....if cacophony and
anger are to be conveyed, he's
>achieved
it....But I still don't think he's the finest poet of this
>century.
>Respectfully,
>Barb
Ginsberg
did take poetry to another level; it's been said that Howl was the
first
real step forward for American poetry since Leaves of Grass. I
believe
he achieved something unique and new with his poetry. Whether or
not
sound devices "enslaved" poetry is not so important as the fact that
Ginsberg
was able to create great poetry without capitulating to them. He
has
helped poets find their own voice (as William C. Williams helped AG
find
his) by raising his own voice so loudly in his poems. To me, yes sound
is
important in poetry, but ginsberg achieves beauty that Eliot and other
poets
who followed more traditional forms never attained. When from the
dirty
ashes of the grief, pain, honesty, and madness of Kaddish come the
lines:
Myself,
anyhow, maybe as old as the universe--and I guess that dies with
us--enough to cancel all that
comes--What came is gone forever
every time--
Thats
good! That leaves it open for no regret--no fear radiators, lacklove,
torture even toothache in the end--
Though
while it comes it is a lion that eats the soul--and the lamb, the sou=
l,
in us, alas, offering itself in
sacrifice to change's fierce
hunger--hair
and teeth--and the roar of bonepain,
skull bare, break rib, rot-skin
braintricked Implacability.
Ai! ai!
we do worse! We are in a fix! And you're out, Death let you out,
Death had the mercy, you're done with
your century, done with
God, done with the path thru it-- Done
with yourself at last--Pure
--Back to the Babe dark before your
Father, before us all--before the
world--
There,
rest. No more suffering for you. I know where you've gone, it's good.
I will
sometimes become tearful when i read this aloud. The sound of this
poetry
is Ginsberg reading it, yourself reading it, not the intricacies of
rhyme
or the placement of syllables, but the pure experience of the beauty
of what
the author has done. One can feel the man writing this: at once,
being
absorbed by the madness of his mother and somehow coming through the
other
side alright, absorbing it in himself; and this relates to ginsberg's
capacity
for compassion, and the essence of the Beats, that giving of
oneself
to life and allowing the beauty and art to come from within the
experience
of life. So was the art of the beats, in my opinion.
I could never see myself trading Howl
or Kaddish for Ode On a
Grecian
Urn by Keats, but luckily, the world gets to have all three and
take
from them all and perhaps find themselves and their own voice in each.
But in
the end, whether in pursuance of truth
or of beauty the poet finds
one
within the other. Dickinson wrote about herself and another buried in
the
grave. She says "I died for beauty" and he says "I died for
truth".
They
are one, and the companions talk to eachother through the walls until
moss
grows over their lips.
To me, Ginsberg's formal style,
whether poetic or oratory, is as
powerful
and beautiful as the lyric of any other poet. He elevates man in
the
world; his sound device is that of life!
-leo
jilk
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:07:30 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Spirit present
Comments:
To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
>
>
>
> In response to:
>
>
>
> > I am 43. I often regret that
I am so young and missed out on the
>
> > 50's and the beats. Anybody
else in that predicament of feel that
>
>
> > way.
>
> > Oh well, as someone once said, somethings gained in living every
>
> > day.
>
> > --
>
> > Peace,
>
> > Bentz
>
>
>
> I am a Montreal 20 year old poet. There are no regrets to having
>
begun
>
> my journey a good 45 years after some of our 'courage-teachers'. The
>
>
> spirit is the main thing and is present.
>
>
>
> Joseph Neudorfer
>
> neudorf@discovland.net
>
>
not certain i understand the purpose of all this BUT
>
>
according to my birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
>
this Earth.
>
but time is a relative thing don't ya know :)
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
Sure
there is a point to it, but if I told you, it would lose its
point. Sometimes, I wish I was older than 43, but I
hardly ever wish I
was
younger. So, why does our culture want
to be so young. I don't get
it,
that's for sure.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:22:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: heroin and aging
Well I
could use some in my old age to help me down from the soapbox.
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:27:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: my cat ate my homework
Likely
story. Is that the cat that peered at me while I slept with one eye
open.
Reminds me of Old Joe Turner singing :like a one-eyed cat sleeping in a
seafood
store."
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:30:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: limited vision
In a
message dated 97-06-18 17:03:30 EDT, you write:
<< What I take issue with is the fact that
some of the people who make up society and
eventually history have a
limited vision of what is possible. >>
Diane:
Sounds
like a description of Allen. Everything always had to be his way in
the
boy's club.
Pam
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:27:45 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: my cat ate my homework
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
Likely story. Is that the cat that peered at me while I slept with one eye
>
open. Reminds me of Old Joe Turner singing :like a one-eyed cat sleeping in a
>
seafood store."
> C.
Plymell
the cat
came near me once and i let out a snore that shook the room and
knocked
the cat across the room and it ran from me like i was a tornado
-- of
course, i was asleep so this could be all made up.
the
attractive feature of the Beat Hotel that gets little mention is the
private
"forest of arden" outside the bedroom window.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:32:25 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: that old conciousness again
In a
message dated 97-06-18 17:03:30 EDT, you write:
<< What I take issue with is the fact that
some of the people who make up society and
eventually history have a
limited vision of what is possible. >>
Diane:
Sounds
like a description of Allen.
Pam
Plymell
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:32:27 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Best concept
In a
message dated 97-06-18 17:34:59 EDT, you write:
<<
Do try Gary Snyder's Turtle Island
(as well as his others) since you're
interested in poetry.
>>
We
stopped and saved a turtle from getting mashed on the road. I hope Gary
Snyder
does the same.
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:39:33 -0400
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From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Cool cars
In a
message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
<<
Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
a
cool car? >>
I had a
cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
I spit
Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
that
Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
had was
a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
cassette
with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
that's
cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
Charles
Plymell
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:40:56 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cool cars
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever
driven
> a
> cool car? >>
> I
had a cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
> I
spit Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
>
that Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
>
had was a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
>
cassette with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
>
that's cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
>
Charles Plymell
didn't
you have a cool-car here in Salina back in '49????
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:54:37 -0500
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pretty
good law & order tonight. now that
basketball season is over i
can
catch them. was it a re-run?
david
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:55:57 -0500
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
pretty good law & order tonight.
now that basketball season is over i
>
can catch them. was it a re-run?
>
>
david
sorry
about that one - hit the wrong button in the address book --
imagine
that!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:32:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Best concept
Comments:
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-06-18 17:34:59 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Do try Gary Snyder's Turtle Island
> (as well as his others) since you're
interested in poetry.
> >>
> We
stopped and saved a turtle from getting mashed on the road. I hope
>
Gary
>
Snyder does the same.
> C.
Plymell
Charles:
My wife
tells me that the other day, she stopped the car save a turtle
from
traffic. My 12 year old son got out to
help, but he was getting
"scratched"
by the claws and kept putting the turtle down.
My 6 year
old
daughter got out and picked it up and placed it on the safe water
side of
the road. She says she is going to be a
vet, and I believe
her. Dogs and cats both like her. But, she also wants to be a gymnast
and a
ballerina. I think she will have a busy
life. And she has a
certain
bohemian look and style about her. My 8
year old daughter is as
preppy
as her mother. It is so strange the way
they seem to have been
here
before.
Last
year when he was 11, Richard was a host for one hour on a local
radio
station. I thought he would freeze up.
He turned it on. People
were
still calling for him when we drove away.
But what was curious to
me was
this:
He read
a bit about strange SC laws. One is a
law that makes it illegal
to
carry a gun to church. He ad libbed,
"What is someone going to do,
shoot
the priest?" We are not Catholic,
and as far as I can remember
have
never even taken him to an Episcopal service.
We do not call our
pastor
a priest in the United Methodist Church.
So, why did he say
priest
instead of preacher. I think that in
another life he was a
Catholic. I don't know if it matters. But, has anyone else noticed how
children
from the same parents seem to have different parents and even
different
"lives". If you have watched,
it will convince you that we
are
reincarnated.
When he
was 3, Richard told me that we live in a desert and that Jesus
brings
us water. My wife just said he was
weird. I think maybe he was
an
Essene priest.
Oh
well.
Later,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:37:32 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: t.v.
Comments:
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RACE
--- wrote:
> RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
>
> pretty good law & order tonight.
now that basketball season is over
> i
>
> can catch them. was it a re-run?
>
>
>
> david
>
>
sorry about that one - hit the wrong button in the address book --
>
imagine that!
>
>
dbr
David:
Well,
it doesn't matter, it actually fits in better here than on the
Celtic
list. What does it have to do with the
draft. Anyway, did you
register
for the draft when you turned 18. I
think I did, but I never
got an
invitation to even the Portsmith Camp.
The Celtics never gave me
a try
out either. Maybe I registered for the
wrong draft? This world
is so
confusing. Don't ever take it
literally, but if you don't you'll
go
insane.
Peace,
maybe, maybe not,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:09:55 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
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From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eliot vs. Ginsberg (was Re: lurker
speaks)
In-Reply-To: <33A83250.1CD8@together.net>
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At
12:09 PM 6/18/97 -0700, Diane Carter wrote:
>
> I
am not trying to diminish the work of Eliot or importance. I
>
also don't think that when you speak of Eliot and Ginsberg it is as
>
simple as saying that they both energized poetry in different ways. I
>
don't see the historical progression of poetry as a line where each
>
generation improves, so to speak, on the next but more of a circle, here
>
all poets, consciously or unconsciously contribute their uniqueness to
>
the concerns of poetry as a whole, which is ultimately the concern of
>
humanness.
I don't
buy the improvement/evolution/progression model either. Your
circle
metaphor works fine for me--especially its focus on unconscious as
well as
conscious influence.
As for
the "concerns of poetry as a whole" pointing to a concern for
"humanness,"
well, I would say that this *might* be an apt description of
my
favorite poets . . . maybe yours, too, since we've met up here on
BEAT-L. Then again, I'm not so sure that Western
humanism is what Ginsberg
is most
moved by. I would say he's most
interested in re-defining what it
means
to be human. But that's for another
discussion (a good one, I'm sure).
> As
you wrote, in another post "Eliot decries what he calls
>
Blake's formlessness." I see Blake as ultimately a great model from
>which
>
grew Ginsberg's vision of Molach.
You'd
love Ginsberg's *Your Reason & Blake's System*, a short book
published
by Hanumen (I think Water Row has this).
Ginsberg knew his
Blake--and
knew how to adapt Blake (Urizen) to his own ends (Moloch). You
might
also be interested in some of the Blake material in *The Visionary
Poetics
of Allen Ginsberg* (by Paul Portuges, from Ross-Erikson Press--out
of
print now). I also work with Blake's
influence on Ginsberg in a couple
chapters
of my dissertation on poetic prophecy.
And the Eliot quote on
Blake: compare Eliot here to Harold Bloom's
stubborn and un-energetic
reading
of *Kaddish*, reprinted in Bloom's *The Ringers in the Tower*. The
Eliot
and Bloom essays are fine examples of the kinds of blinders that
prevent
cultural guardians from seeing the limitations of their own systems.
>I
don't see Ginsberg as being
>
influenced to any great degree by Eliot.
Any scholars of Ginsberg out
>
there, speak up if I am wrong here.
Wrong? Not necessarily (in my opinion, as a
twentieth-century poetry
scholar
who loves Ginsberg and Eliot). Check
out the unsent letter
Ginsberg
wrote (with Carl Solomon) to Eliot from the Columbia Psychiatric
Institute
(p. 143-44 of *Howl* facsimile edition), a letter written when
U.S.
English Departments were dominated by Eliot-inspired standards of
control,
irony, wit, and decorum. (A domination,
as I argued in a previous
post,
that arose from critics who seemed to forget Eliot's experimental
qualities--critics
who listened more to the prescriptions of Eliot's
criticism
than to the experimental nature of the early poetry itself). In
the
letter to Eliot, Ginsberg & Solomon declare that they "know exactly
where
you stand on the question of the existence of your great mind," and
close
with a royal "we" that plays Eliot's institutional authority for the
fool: "We take our leave by asking us to kiss
you goodbye."
I agree
with you that Eliot was not a *direct* influence on Ginsberg.
These
attacks on Eliot are everywhere in Ginsberg, and for good reason: he
was
establishing a literary reputation that looked away from Eliot's
Euro-inflected
voice and toward the American line of Williams and Whitman,
and
toward the prophetic energy and prophetic historical consciousness of
Blake. As you said:
>
But the connection from Whitman to
>
Williams to Ginsberg is much clearer.
Yet
I've also been trying to argue that twentieth-century literary
history--like
the history of any period--is too tangled to simply say
something
like:
>
Eliot distances himself from art
>
while Ginsberg puts himself in the middle of it.
In
"Tradition and the Individual Talent" Eliot does talk about
"impersonal"
poetry
as a model of composition. But he also
talks about transforming the
emotion
of the individual poet into an emotion fitting for each individual
poem--a
theory of selfhood that is as much about distance as engagment, I
think. Eliot claimed an impersonality for his
poetry that wasn't always
there,
as critics who have focused on biographical readings of his poetry
have
shown.
Eliot
was an influence Ginsberg could not evade, given the historical
conditions
of the era. Even if Ginsberg detested
Eliot and chose never to
read
him--not the case, as the journals show--Ginsberg could not have
helped
hearing the influence of Eliot on the contemporaries around him.
Eliot
was too dominant not to be an influence.
Think of this 1954 letter
from
Kerouac to Ginsberg (quoted in Schumacher's biography (p. 194) and
probably
in other sources): "For your
beginning studies of Buddhism, you
must
listen to me carefully and implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching
you
relativity or Eliot teaching the Formulas of Objective Correlation on a
blackboard
in Princeton." Now there's quite a
smirking conflation of
representative
teachers and influences--Buddha, Einstein, and Eliot. I'm
reminded
of Burroughs's remark on JK conflating Buddha and the Pope. And
I'm
reminded of Ginsberg and Solomon's sarcastic royal "we." Think also of
"Footnote
to Howl," line 115:
"Everything is holy! everybody's holy!
everywhere
is holy! everyday is in eternity!"
This does not sound like it
could
come from Eliot's elitism and religious orthodoxy. Yet in the
facisimile
edition, Ginsberg cites Blake (from "Auguries of Innocence") and
Eliot
(a line from "Burnt Norton" that also appears in Ginsberg's poem
"Journal
Night Thoughts") as influences for the line. And then look at
Ginsberg's
Eliot dreams in his published journals.
In these dreams he is
as
interested in winning Eliot's approval as he is ashamed of this interest.
>I
can see why people are moved by
>
lines of Eliot, and why they are captivated by the metaphysical and
>
symbolic implications of his poetry.
Yet I see Eliot as being removed
>by
> a
layer of something from his own verse.
He does not write to America
>
about America or about individual experience in a way that even in the
>
way that even Whitman did. He writes as if there is a shroud between
>
himself and his words, and I think that shroud is the formalness he
>
thought critical to a work of art.
I
agree, to an extent . . . although I think Eliot accomplishes quite a bit
with
this strategy of impersonality and self-removal . . . just as Ginsberg
accomplishes
quite a bit with his emphasis on strategies of naked selfhood.
Eliot doesn't want to write as an American or
to America. The "shroud" of
"formalness"
you mention--a nice description, I think--is part of his
theory
of the "objective correlative" . . . part of what JK claims,
sarcastically,
in the 1954 letter is a teaching lineage comparable to
Buddha
and Einstein.
> For someone writing in
>
American today, I see Ginsberg as a much better model than Eliot.
Hard to
say, for me. It depends on what that
person wants to say, and how
s/he
wants to say it. As a writer, I try to
take a bit from everyone I
read.
BTW,
thanks for starting this great thread, going way back to your readings
in
*Allen Verbatim* (and, as you can guess from my spewing page references
&
citations, the thread overlaps some of my own research & writing
interests).
Tony
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I
think of people's faces and stay away from coffee. I listen
to my
radio and I go to bed early too.
There's nothing like
sleep
to make you feel good the next day. And
I also eat good.
When I
feel tense and nervous in the morning I go to Ruby's and
have a
good breakfast. The food gives me the
energy to think more
positive
thoughts."
--Henry
Turner
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:17:01 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
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Bill
Philibin wrote:
But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
> a
>
> cool car?
Look at
the pictures of Plymell who has definitely owned and sold to
cheap
some very cool cars.
I don't
know if I myself count as a poetic Geek, but my coolest wheels
have
been a couple of Saab 96's, a wonderfully clean 1950 Ford pickup
with a
great flathead straight 6, one of the
original RX-7's, and a
wonderful
5 liter Mustang which kicked serious butt.
Nothing wrong with
cool
cars. Best current wheels (but not
running) a 1958 Vespa 150.
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:20:08 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
Bill Philibin wrote:
>
> But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
>
> a
>
> > cool car?
>
>
Look at the pictures of Plymell who has definitely owned and sold to
>
cheap some very cool cars.
>
> I
don't know if I myself count as a poetic Geek, but my coolest wheels
>
have been a couple of Saab 96's, a wonderfully clean 1950 Ford pickup
>
with a great flathead straight 6, one
of the original RX-7's, and a
>
wonderful 5 liter Mustang which kicked serious butt. Nothing wrong with
>
cool cars. Best current wheels (but not
running) a 1958 Vespa 150.
>
> J
Stauffer
my best
was a 63 white ford pickup called jennie, seat upholstered in my
childhood
drapes, great roses with crawling leaves, p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 01:16:46 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: traditionalism
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>=20
>
Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>=20
>
>Yes, I am obviously more of a traditionalist...and to a degree sound i=
s
>
>as important as the images and messages in poetry...otherwise it might
>
>as well be prose...a speech. And
Ginsberg does favor techniques used =
by
>
>orators moreso than poets. Also...I
don't think poetry had been "boun=
d"
>
>or "enslaved" my sound devices....It is a kind of music where one
may
>
>choose from a plethora of devices.
And honestly, Ginsberg is lacking =
in
>
>that area. I agree, his
imagery and tone are powerful, but he relies
>
>heavily on parallelism and cataloging, but he never achieves the caden=
ce
>
>of Whitman. Albeit....if cacophony
and anger are to be conveyed, he's
>
>achieved it....But I still don't think he's the finest poet of this
>
>century.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Barb
>
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>
Ginsberg did take poetry to another level; it's been said that Howl was=
the
>
first real step forward for American poetry since Leaves of Grass. I
>
believe he achieved something unique and new with his poetry. Whether o=
r
>
not sound devices "enslaved" poetry is not so important as the fact
tha=
t
>
Ginsberg was able to create great poetry without capitulating to them. =
He
>
has helped poets find their own voice (as William C. Williams helped AG
>
find his) by raising his own voice so loudly in his poems. To me, yes s=
ound
> is
important in poetry, but ginsberg achieves beauty that Eliot and ot=
her
>
poets who followed more traditional forms never attained. When from the
>
dirty ashes of the grief, pain, honesty, and madness of Kaddish come th=
e
>
lines:
>=20
>
Myself, anyhow, maybe as old as the universe--and I guess that dies wit=
h
> us--enough to cancel all that
comes--What came is gone forever
> every time--
>
Thats good! That leaves it open for no regret--no fear radiators, lackl=
ove,
> torture even toothache in the end--
>
Though while it comes it is a lion that eats the soul--and the lamb, th=
e soul,
> in us, alas, offering itself in sacrifice
to change's fierce
>
hunger--hair
> and teeth--and the roar of bonepain,
skull bare, break rib, rot=
-skin
> braintricked Implacability.
>
Ai! ai! we do worse! We are in a fix! And you're out, Death let you out=
,
> Death had the mercy, you're done with
your century, done with
> God, done with the path thru it--
Done with yourself at last--P=
ure
> --Back to the Babe dark before your
Father, before us all--befo=
re the
> world--
>=20
> There,
rest. No more suffering for you. I know where you've gone, it's =
good.
>=20
> I
will sometimes become tearful when i read this aloud. The sound of th=
is
>
poetry is Ginsberg reading it, yourself reading it, not the intricacies=
of
>
rhyme or the placement of syllables, but the pure experience of the bea=
uty
> of
what the author has done. One can feel the man writing this: at once=
,
>
being absorbed by the madness of his mother and somehow coming through =
the
>
other side alright, absorbing it in himself; and this relates to ginsbe=
rg's
>
capacity for compassion, and the essence of the Beats, that giving of
>
oneself to life and allowing the beauty and art to come from within the
>
experience of life. So was the art of the beats, in my opinion.
> I could never see myself trading Howl
or Kaddish for Ode On a
>
Grecian Urn by Keats, but luckily, the world gets to have all three and
>
take from them all and perhaps find themselves and their own voice in e=
ach.
>
But in the end, whether in pursuance of
truth or of beauty the poet fi=
nds
>
one within the other. Dickinson wrote about herself and another buried =
in
>
the grave. She says "I died for beauty" and he says "I died for
truth".
>
They are one, and the companions talk to eachother through the walls un=
til
>
moss grows over their lips.
> To me, Ginsberg's formal style,
whether poetic or oratory, is a=
s
>
powerful and beautiful as the lyric of any other poet. He elevates man =
in
>
the world; his sound device is that of life!
>=20
>
-leo jilk
Excellent,
excellent post.
I just
want to add to that something William Carlos Williams wrote as an=20
introduction
to Ginsberg's Empty Mirror, which was 1947-52, even=20
pre-Howl.
"This
young Jewish boy, already not so young any more, has recognized=20
something
that has escaped most of the modern age, he has found that man=20
is lost
in the world of his own head. And that
the rhythms of the past=20
have
become like an old field long left unploughed and fallen into=20
disuse. In fact they are excavating there for a new
industrial plant.
There
the new inferno will soon be under construction.
A new
sort of line, omitting memories of trees and watercourses and=20
clouds
and pleasant glades--as empty of them as Dante Alighieri's Inferno=
=20
is
empty of them--exists today. It is
measured in the passage of time=20
without
accent, monotonous, useless--unless you are drawn to Dante was to=
=20
see the
truth, undressed, and to sway to a beat that is far removed from=20
the
beat of dancing feet but rather finds in the shuffling of human=20
beings
in all the stages of their day, the trip to the bathroom, to the=20
stairs
of the subway, the steps of the office or factory routine the=20
mystical
measure of their passions.
It is
indeed a human pilgrimage, like Geoffrey Chaucer's; poets had=20
better
be aware of it and speak of it--and speak of it in plain terms,=20
such as
men will recognize. In the mystical
beat of newspapers that no=20
one
recognizes, their life is given back to them in plain terms. Not one=
=20
recognizes
Dante there fully deployed. It is not
recondite but plain.
And
when the poet in his writing would scream of the crowd, like=20
Jeremiah,
that there life is beset, what can he do, in the end, but speak=
=20
to them
in their own language, that of the daily press?
And at
the same time, out of his love for them--a poet as Dante was a=20
poet--he
must use his art, as Dante used his art, to please. He must so=20
disguise
his lines, that his style appears prosaic (so that it shall not=20
offend)
to go in a cloud.
With
this, if it be possible, the hidden sweetness of the poem may alone=20
survive
and one day rouse the sleeping world.
There
cannot be any facile deception about it.
The writing cannot be=20
made to
be "a kind of prose," not prose with a dirty wash of a stale poem=
=20
over
it. It must not set out, as poets are
taught or have a tendency to=20
do, to
deceive, to sneak over a poetic way of laying down phrases. It=20
must be
prose but prose among whose words the terror of their truth has=20
been
discovered.
Here
the terror of the scene has been laid bare in subtle measures, the=20
pages
are warm with it. The scene they evoke
is terrifying more so than=20
Dante's
pages, the poem is not suspect, the craft is flawless."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 21:33:54 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Spirit present
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
not certain i understand the purpose of all this BUT
>
>
according to my birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
>
this Earth.
>
but time is a relative thing don't ya know :)
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
And you
are only as pretty as you feel!
There
was no best time to be alive. Hell I
was too late to be Dick
Powell
in the Thin Man movies with Myrna Loy and way too late to eat
opium
with Coleridge and DeQuincy. Enjoy your
epoch guys. It's all
you've
got.
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 23:37:26 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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Subject: Re: Spirit present
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> not certain i understand the purpose of all this BUT
>
>
>
> according to my birth certificate I'm 35 years 9 months and 2 days on
>
> this Earth.
>
> but time is a relative thing don't ya know :)
>
>
>
> david rhaesa
>
> salina, Kansas
>
>
And you are only as pretty as you feel!
>
>
There was no best time to be alive.
Hell I was too late to be Dick
>
Powell in the Thin Man movies with Myrna Loy and way too late to eat
>
opium with Coleridge and DeQuincy.
Enjoy your epoch guys. It's all
>
you've got.
>
> J
Stauffer
i'd
have to say i found my life as Pandur lyric poet and trickster in
Ancient
Greece the most interesting.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:11:59 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ReBirth Generation
Comments:
To: neudorf@mainserver.discovland.net
In a
message dated 97-06-19 01:43:27 EDT, you write:
<< must not define ourselves (others will
always lend a
hand
was not Kerouac hesitant and alienated by critics and
descriptions of the Beat Generation?)
..........................................................................
- RHYTHMIC MISSIONARIES : >>
Well,
sounds like you've got it goin' on. But
while you're busy defining
yourself
as a poet, don't forget to step down and be a human being sometimes
too.
Are you
familiar with "the Last Poets"?
They read poetry to drums and other
noise.-----------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:26:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: days of long posts
sorry
about all the long posts lately. I hope
i haven't made everyone's
fingers
delete-happy when they see my name.
>From
now on, call me the queen of brevity.
Speaking of itchy
trigger-fingers,
has anyone read Burroughs' "soft machine"?
(if
anyone thinks that was in poor taste i'm sorry)---------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 02:52:11 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: t.v.
In a
message dated 97-06-19 02:30:00 EDT, you write:
<<
sorry about that one - hit the wrong button
in the address book --
imagine that!
>>
sorry
about all previous messages. Must have been hitting the wrong button in
the
address book this whole time--imagine that!
i grovel in humiliation and
tremble
in anticipation of your wrath. Flay me!
Flagellate me! Scorn me with
your
Beatness! I will now recede back into
my dark shell of lurkerdom.
"I
can see the color of souls, and yours is white"
"i
belong to her. I've belonged to her and I didn't know it. Goodbye,
daughter.
The curse! the curse!"
"I
will pray every day for you. From my dark well of loneliness i will pray
for
you"
=====
loops from: confessions of a knife, the Thrill Kill Kult (which IS a
beat-related
band, thankyouverymuch)
Piece,
-----------------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:13:34 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: The FireWalk Saga continues
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Let's
see after shrink comes "Discussing the Bordello" - i think that
was in
the first insomniatic musings post long long ago.
Next
comes:
(Eulogy
for the Dead Poetry Professor in all of us) i can't remember if
i put
this one on the list or not.
special
prize big sloppy kiss to anyone who can figure out why the title
of that
one was in parantheses.
November
12th 1992.... typed (Eulogy for the Dead Poetry Professor in
all of
us) . .. not certain why I put the title in parentheses. that is
probably
the most significant factor in the poem.
many other things I
noticed
about the poem over time. nobody that
has read it seems to have
gotten
close to these. perhaps i=92ll begin to
go into them after after
after
typing the poem sometime. first I need
to put on some music to
type
with. for a Eulogy it seems Lou
Reed=92s Magic and Loss is a fairly
good
notion. =20
(Eulogy
for the Dead Poetry Professor in all of us) ...=20
Poetry
-- -- -- the art of glimpsing into the aleph ...the infinity and
nothingness
of the unconsciousness and tapping into the streams of
consciousness
... rivers of images ... oceans of ideas ... symbols -
pictures
- art ... POETRY ... free associating between unconscious
symbology
like in a dream but your conscious mind is there too .. .
conscious
and unconscious together joined in the poetic instant --
reflexive
-- instantaneous -- connections .... of images and ideas.
And it
isn=92t found in dusty books ...You might find it there, but it=92=
s
in life
... it IS life, being in and out of existence at the same time
the
connection of the images of the=20
you <in time and
space>
with the
images of=20
you <from the self
<<that lies outside those
dimensions>>
>
and in
the poetic instant -- life is real ... not plastic .... And it=92s
about
the truth ..... !
=93What
is the poetry about?=94 the worn English professor asks the wild
eyed
freshman. The professor was too worn to
see the fire in the
student=92s
eyes. After years of neglect his poetic
instinct was
tarnished....in
hibernation. he was happy if he got
students to get
beyond
the notion that =93poetry is something that rhymes=94.
But the
wild eyed student glared at the worn professor angry for not
being
noticed and he replied with what he felt was real:
=93Poetry
is about the truth!=94 he exclaimed.
=93You
can=92t say it=92s rational. It
doesn=92t follow the linear reaso=
ning of
philosophical
or scientific thought. Unlike
mathematics poetry is the
belief
that 1,7,4,9,8,3,4 is as logical -- or sensible -- a sequence as
1,2,3,4,5,6,7.....=94
The
professor looks into the student=92s eyes into the fire of truth ...
laughs
insanely ... and dies of a heartattack.
At
least he died in a poetic instant, a poetic moment, the shock of
reconnecting
with the place where the poetry is -- that space between
time
and time between space -- where art resides, where the truth is
visible
outside this plastic world.....
-- the
shock -- it was too much for the old man thought the wild eyed
student. And then he laughed and he laughed and the
other students
stared
and they stared. =20
And the
senior class President asked =93What are you laughing about ? --
you
wild eyed boy !!!=94=20
And the
boy said: =93He answered his own question.=94
The
Class President stared at him.....the rest of the class stared at
him.
=20
=93:Don=92t
you get it. He=92s been wanting to know
what poetry=92s
about....He=92s
been asking the same question year after year and he
doesn=92t
find a satisfactory answer ... he doesn=92t find the truth so h=
e
waits
in his office for another semester ... another term ... another
chance
to ask THE QUESTION ... and another term to dismiss their answers
one by
one - - =93
Until I
retire to the study to the office hoping that someone will bring
me the
answer. The waiting. The wait.
That was his life. And finally
somebody
has the guts to answer the question.
What is poetry about?=20
It=92s
about the fucking truth old man. It=92s
about life. It=92s not a=
bout
hiding
in your study year after year while the truth runs wild in the
streets
and hallways. Its about going
places....on your feet ... in
your
mind ... it=92s active.
What is
poetry about? It=92s about seeing
infinity and nothing collapse
into
each other and surviving the vision...the sound...the experience to
share
it with others. And you finally had the
nerve to turn and face
the
answer to see chaos staring back from your bathroom mirror to hear
the
laughter of the abyss rolling like thunder through your ears while
you
strain to listen to Lou Reed talk of friends and death .....
you had
the nerve. ..........and you turned and the streams of
conscious,
the wiring of your mind criss-crossed and you saw: POETRY,
TRUTH
... the space between the lies we all live and you were afraid of
the
vision .... afraid to go back and share it and so you did what so
many of
them do .................. you died.
[a
brief reminder to myself to discuss the extreme anguish involved in
the
decision to apply for disability to leave the teaching profession
... the
debates with Eduardo about it ... and the recognition that my
thought
leads to madness and I couldn=92t stand to lead other folks in
that
direction ... a part of me definitely died with that decision I
imagine
... back to the poem]
There
are really only three choices you know.
You can die. You can go
insane. Or you can go back into the cave and help
people to understand
the
truth. The first is the easiest. You took the easy root -- easy
route
old man. At least if you went insane
you might be able to cross
reality
planes with the rest of us and help us keep our balance.
But
death it seems like a real cop out - although I can=92t blame anyone
who
chooses death either by suicide or natural causes. Life can really
wear
you down. =20
So I
don=92t blame you old man for choosing death....And I don=92t blame =
you
for
going nuts. I understand that from
where you=92ve been, your ideas
make
just as much sense as this rational sane society that we find
ourselves
trapped in.
So you
choose to go back to try and share and you=92re sitting at the
table
talking to the student and she=92s not plastic like the rest but
she=92s
seen so little. You wonder if you have
the patience to share all
of this
much longer.
[somewhere
I may have a copy of the article the young student =93wendy?=94
wrote
based on the interview. a big block
quotation from me somewhere
in the
mixture. I remember reading it and
saying =93Did I say that ???=94=
=20
That
sounds pretty good]=20
She
asks you =93What is a radical in our culture today?=94 =93Is there a
place
for radicals?=94.....
And you
tell her that you don=92t like the word =93radical.=94 It=92s th=
em
labeling
us. It=92s a label of
domination....Just like insane or mentall=
y
ill. It says you=92re out of the mainstream
of society....And even
though
their river is flowing full of blood not water poison liquids of
culture
flowing through them all gradually forming into the plastic that
surrounds
their lives -- =20
they
like their river.
And
since you see other rivers -- other oceans -- other thoughts and
dreams
you are a threat to the main stream.
The mainstream might not be
the
main one anymore if they see all those other streams all those other
pictures
so they call you a radical. =20
Well
what does it really tell you about me if someone tells you that
=93I=92m
a radical.=94 does it tell you
something like =93I=92m a poet-I=
=92m an
artist-I=92m
a capitalist-a pastor- a doctor-lawyer-dental assistant=94=20
It=92s
just labels trying to define you
Tell you what you are
what you think
Who am
I? I am who I am. I stole that last line from somewhere maybe
a
children=92s
cartoon character or maybe from God, I don=92t remember but =
I
don=92t
think anybody will mind........
=93What=92s
the place for radicals in our culture?=94
Not
much use for them, it seems. But you
need a few now and then just
to
scare people into not changing anything much.
Rebels. Are rebels
the
same as radicals? Can I be radically
non-rebellious?=20
At
least in your dreams, said the psychiatrist.
Just take four lithium
and
call me in the morning.
And
i=92m in the attic now Nearly moved from my cave and as I look out
over
the Mississippi River into Davenport Iowa I wonder what the people
are
thinking in Davenport and I wonder if this is where Kerouac was when
he
realized that God really is Pooh-Bear and ........
Lou
Reed says I want all of it ... not just some of it .... and I pause,
radically,
and wonder ....if I really want all of it, i=92m not even sure
how
much of it I need.......
and
somehow in this attic -- cold air leaking in through the windows it
seems
like I have found it.
What is
poetry about? If you have to ask you
just don=92t get it. And h=
e
shuts
the office door and never returns ...
and the
dream of the wild-eyed boy comes back whenever he slips into the
plastic
places and pushes him back to the place where the poetry is
.....
the nexus, the aleph ....=20
the
truth of infinity and nothing in one poetic moment.
That
instant contains all of it. Explore
that one instant and you will
see it
all .....
[ funny
that I picked the CD I was listening to when I wrote this to
listen
to when I retyped it into this missive.
when I turned a page and
saw
that it was one of those shocking criss-crossed visions of something
beyond
the beyond of the beyond that it is useless to even begin to
attempt
to explain here and now or there in eternity or from one to the
other
or both ....]
FireWalk
Thru Madness Colletion, Copyright December 1992 David B. Rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 06:18:10 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: More FireWalk shorties
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Lynnea
set some kind of timer and we had to write fast ... she convinced
me to
include mine in this collection back then.
FireWalk
Through Madness, copyright December 1992, David B. Rhaesa
PICASO=92S
WHISKERS December 1, 1992 (at
Lynnea=92s)
Thelonius
Monk following Xmas carols with the Lettermen as tress get
axed or
hatcheted and trimming wreathes between Picaso=92s whiskers.
Picaso
on your back? or monekey?
Almost
caught the Soft Machine twists and turns like at the laundromat.
Silent
Night, Holy Night, all is calm until the volume is turned up on
William
S. Burroughs reading the Sermon on the Mount in your living room
with
background noises like Grouch Marx singing the Communist Manisfesto
and
Richard Nixon reciting Mein Kampf from memory on the VCR above your
bathroom
mirror.
Lenin
and Emma Goldman met in Mel=92s diner on Thanksgiving to talk with
Alice
about opening her own restaraunt specializing in Animal Crackers
in
Stockbridge Massachusetts with proceeds going to the Vietnam Vets
hooked
on heroin in their flashback fatigues.
Mel said she=92d open it b=
y
Xmas
and Thelonious Monk will play Jingle Bells on Halloween Night.
So this
is one of many and many upon many things written in the attic.=20
i=92ll
try and tell more about the magical attic and its ghosts and
raccoons
somewhere along the line.
MILK
and HONEY NIGHTMARE December 1, 1992 (at Lynnea=92s)
Young
Picaso, First Christmas tree branch paws play raquetball with
white
rabbit over turtle soup at Casey=92s in Milan, Italy next to the
Pope=92s
Columbus Day Parade.
In
December of 1892 the Boardwalk at Atlantic City turned inside out and
was a
stairway to Atlantis that only I could see from the decades of
bloodshed
over milk and honey, crackers in bed and tulip farmer=92s labor
contracts.
After
the war things settled back to normal in Nantucket but ethnic
strife
over baseball card pricing started a nuclear nightmare in the
German
Shepherd=92s mind. He was named Boxer
and he turned into a
cockroach
to avoid the radiation therapy because he was misdiagnosed and
didn=92t
have liver cancer.
PEEPING
ANGEL SEX FANTASY #3 December 1, 1992
(at Lynnea=92s)
The
kids in girl and boy land just West of Tangier -- Incredible,
Instinctual
for the mouth to open on the nipple.
Freud
would say it=92s sexual but Nancy Wilson says love me for Christmas
and she
grins at the Christmas kiss - As she sings of Bethelehem and sex
in a
stable - instinctual, incredible - silent stars go by in his mind
at the
fantasy=92s peak and her eyes are closed as she rubs his furry arm.
Dreaming
in a barnyard with Angels Peeping through the curtain at the
intimate
rendevouz.
all for
now -- i'm still typing the next one which is the longest in the
whole
thing and perhaps will be skipped altogether.
it is very
important
but just too damn long for most people's eyes.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. does anybody know how you get things
published...i'm clueless.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 07:26:03 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cool cars
Comments:
To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To:
<970618223731_202099211@emout06.mail.aol.com>
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At
10:39 PM 6/18/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>
><<
Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever driven
>a
>
cool car? >>
>I
had a cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
>I
spit Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
>that
Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
>had
was a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it and
>cassette
with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
>that's
cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
>Charles
Plymell
No one on this list is a geek or a
freak. We're the only normal people in
the
world! Call me stupid....but what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:27:03 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Ginsberg & Eliot
I'm not
sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
Ginsberg
was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe.
In fact much of his
poetry
is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets.
He was
also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
mention
a few. If you look at "Gates of
Wrath," I think you'll see
Ginsberg's
early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
style
promoted by Eliot and the New Critics.
But Ginsberg quickly
rejected
that style. Ginsberg biggest difference
from Eliot is probably
that he
wanted to return poetry to its roots in song.
As he grew older,
he
seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was
greatly
influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
William
Blake.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:14:28 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
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Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
>
I'm not sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
>
Ginsberg was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In fact much of his
>
poetry is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets.
> He
was also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
>
mention a few. If you look at
"Gates of Wrath," I think you'll see
>
Ginsberg's early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
>
style promoted by Eliot and the New Critics.
But Ginsberg quickly
>
rejected that style. Ginsberg biggest
difference from Eliot is probably
>
that he wanted to return poetry to its roots in song. As he grew older,
> he
seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was
>
greatly influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
>
William Blake.
i think
that this makes an INCREDIBLY useful point.
To package a poet
into a
neat bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems
to make
the poet less than human. Poets live
their life in time too and
the
influences come and go - just like they do for us "normal" folks :)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:51:09 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Windowpoopies
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970618120043.00699954@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
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and all
this time i had a vision of mad, laughing poets mooning the world
from
open windows!
mc
definitely
*not* a rocket scientist
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:51:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: blake and all
In-Reply-To: <v03007805afce165c3c4f@[156.46.45.82]>
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and yes
of course all the rest is pure poetry .. i love his pomes about his
wife,
his children and his wit. in the dark with you, is full of love and
satire.
straight to the heart.
>Marie,
>Great
take on Greg Brown. His innocence/experience CD is exceptional, but
>on
each of his CDs--and his music is all original with the exception of a
>Jimmy
Rogers song I heard him sing--you'll find lyrics--pure poetry-- that
>would
stand alone without the music. When Greg's daughter Pieta and my
>Charity
were pre-school they were part of our coop daycare center in Iowa
>City
called Alice's Bijou. Long gone now, but back then Greg would help
>with
fund raising, all the parents worked,and we had full-time day care for
>$20.00
a month. As long as Alices existed it was a must stop for Michael
>Harrington
whenever he was in i.c.
>
>I'm
drifting. Back to the poetry of GB. AS far as I'm concerned greg is one
>of
the best poets to ever come out of Iowa City--and he didn't spend any
>time
with the workshop.
>
>j
grant
>
>
>
>
> BE ON THE WATCH
>for
items stolen from the Keroauc Collection
> O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
>http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
>
>Academic
& Small Press Authors & publishers
> display books free at
> <http://www.bookzen.com>
> 302,443
visitors since July 1, 1996
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:51:19 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: michael czarnecki's cool car
In-Reply-To: <33A89C38.1D8@midusa.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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hey
michael, are you still subbed as you go on yr travels with little mac
classic
in hand? in my opinion a 'really cool car' is one that has a
tender/angry/authentic
beat or not poet at the wheel. happy trails,
michael,
hope you send us a bit of yr travel adventures along the open road.
mc
>Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>>
>>
In a message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>>
>>
<< Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever
driven
>>
a
>> cool car? >>
>>
I had a cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it LOM.
>>
I spit Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52 MGTD
>>
that Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
>>
had was a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in
>>it
and
>>
cassette with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
>>
that's cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
>>
Charles Plymell
>
>didn't
you have a cool-car here in Salina back in '49????
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:28:45 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>
>
Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
>
> I'm not sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and
>
> Ginsberg was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In fact much of his
>
> poetry is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets.
>
> He was also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
>
> mention a few. If you look at
"Gates of Wrath," I think you'll see
>
> Ginsberg's early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a
>
> style promoted by Eliot and the New Critics. But Ginsberg quickly
>
> rejected that style. Ginsberg biggest
difference from Eliot is probably
>
> that he wanted to return poetry to its roots in song. As he grew older,
>
> he seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was
>
> greatly influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
>
> William Blake.
>
RACE
--- wrote:
> i
think that this makes an INCREDIBLY useful point. To package a poet
>
into a neat bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems
> to
make the poet less than human. Poets
live their life in time too and
>
the influences come and go - just like they do for us "normal" folks
:)
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
I am
very interested in studying the Blake/Ginsberg connection more, and
in
looking at some of the writings Tony Trigilio referenced earlier. I
have
always seen Blake when reading Ginsberg but have never read anything
Ginsberg
wrote about Blake.
As far
as "to package a poet into a neat bundle and look at the
influences
on the package seems to make a poet less human," I think I
see the
opposite. First of all no poet can be
packaged in a neat bundle,
it just
can't be done, and I give that point to some who think I have
done so
with Eliot. Looking at the influences
on a particular poet,
however,
can actually make that poet come more alive.
It's true
influences
come and go, and we can never understand everything, but the
more we
can understand the more fully the depth of a poet's work can be
realized. My view is that each of us carries within us
the entire
consciousness
of the human race, and while much of that is unconscious,
the
more that is brought to light, gives us a better understanding of
ourselves
and thus our humanness, which is the concern of every poet.
It's
true that to analyze the shit out of something sometimes dimishes
from
the initial truth and beauty of it.
That's a thin line walked by
literary
critics. But on the whole I think
examining how and why writers
wrote
certain things overall enlarges the scope of their work.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:47:15 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Eliot vs. Ginsberg (was Re: lurker
speaks)
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Tony
Trigilio wrote:
>(much
snipped to make my response shorter)
>>
As for the "concerns of poetry as a whole" pointing to a concern for
>
"humanness," well, I would say that this *might* be an apt
description
>of
> my
favorite poets . . . maybe yours, too, since we've met up here on
>
BEAT-L. Then again, I'm not so sure
that Western humanism is what
>Ginsberg
> is
most moved by. I would say he's most
interested in re-defining what <it
>
means to be human. But that's for
another discussion (a good one, I'm
>sure).
redefining
what it means to be human--that's a discussion I would love to
take
up. Feel free to start putting out
your ideas, I'll have more on
that
later.
>And
the Eliot quote on
>
Blake: compare Eliot here to Harold
Bloom's stubborn and un-energetic
>
reading of *Kaddish*, reprinted in Bloom's *The Ringers in the Tower*. The
>
Eliot and Bloom essays are fine examples of the kinds of blinders that
>
prevent cultural guardians from seeing the limitations of their own
>systems.
I have
heard of Bloom's essay but never read it.
Do you know if it is
part of
any internet site? I have to say I have
been acutely
disappointed
in what I have heard of what Bloom thought of Ginsberg's
poetry,
and how he did not include it in some twentieth century poetry
collection
he edited. Among those I studied with
in college, Bloom was a
god,
probably the most respected literary critic.
I'm sorry to see that
he
ended up on the side of cultural guardians.
Tony,
thanks for all of your contributions to this thread, you have given
me many
ideas to explore on my own.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:06:53 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Attila
Gyenis wrote:
>
>
> I
think religion's concept of heaven (and hell) is a way to have poor people
>
accept their fate instead of fighting for justice.
>
>
It's a way for many people to do what they want, knowing that they have a
>
chance to repent at the end.
>
> It
allows people to not be accountable for their actions here on earth,
>
because they are being graded up in heaven.
>
>
And of course, the real question is whether there really is a heaven. And if
>
there isn't, it it acceptable to say there is a heaven just so that they (the
>
church) can herd the people in a certain direction?
>
>
Hypothetical question: Does a rock have a 'purpose'. Is it a bigger or
>
smaller purpose then a human. Is it a better or worse purpose then a human's.
I don't
think that with the religious conception of heaven, a person can
do
anything he wants eyeing the repentence at the end as a guarantee of
entrance
to heaven. I thought that doing it with
that notion would imply
the
opposite. Saying, for instance, I'm
going to murder this person
today,
repent tomorrow, and then everything will be OK and I'll still go
to
heaven was a distinct no-no. That is
not a sincere repentance. Maybe
I am
putting forth the protestant concept here and the catholic one is
different,
I don't know.
Hypothetical
answer--A rock does have a purpose and it is no greater or
smaller
a purpose than a human one. Also not
better or worse. All things
exist
equally in the moment.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:20:03 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: sunspots
sunspots
burning in your eyes
hope they
dont burn out
or i
don't gouge them inadvertently
which
happens sometimes
to
people i love
but
don't worry i don't love you
i love
my typewriter
it
never lies
or
looks at me with deceiving eyes
who
pretend to hold
brightness.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:23:39 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Oxybiotic
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
> At
10:39 PM 6/18/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>In a message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>
>
>
><< Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever
driven
>
>a
>
> cool car? >>
>
>I had a cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it
LOM.
>
>I spit Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52
MGTD
>
>that Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
>
>had was a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it
and
>
>cassette with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
>
>that's cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
>
>Charles Plymell
>
> No one on this list is a geek or a
freak. We're the only normal people
in
>
the world! Call me stupid....but what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara
>
>
It's
all in "Last of the Mocassins"
"We
used to get what was called Oxy-Biotic which was a brand of nose
drops
that would make the present day methedrine seem mild. "Oxy-Biotic
will
make ypu neurotic!" (p. 29)
J
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:30:31 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I'm not sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot
and
>
> > Ginsberg was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In fact much of his
>
> > poetry is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist
poets.
>
> > He was also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to
>
> > mention a few. If you look at
"Gates of Wrath," I think you'll see
>
> > Ginsberg's early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences,
a
>
> > style promoted by Eliot and the New Critics. But Ginsberg quickly
>
> > rejected that style. Ginsberg
biggest difference from Eliot is probably
>
> > that he wanted to return poetry to its roots in song. As he grew older,
>
> > he seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was
>
> > greatly influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of
>
> > William Blake.
>
>
>
>
RACE --- wrote:
>
> i think that this makes an INCREDIBLY useful point. To package a poet
>
> into a neat bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems
>
> to make the poet less than human.
Poets live their life in time too and
>
> the influences come and go - just like they do for us "normal"
folks :)
>
>
>
> david rhaesa
>
> salina, Kansas
>
> I
am very interested in studying the Blake/Ginsberg connection more, and
> in
looking at some of the writings Tony Trigilio referenced earlier. I
>
have always seen Blake when reading Ginsberg but have never read anything
>
Ginsberg wrote about Blake.
>
> As
far as "to package a poet into a neat bundle and look at the
>
influences on the package seems to make a poet less human," I think I
>
see the opposite. First of all no poet
can be packaged in a neat bundle,
> it
just can't be done, and I give that point to some who think I have
>
done so with Eliot. Looking at the
influences on a particular poet,
>
however, can actually make that poet come more alive. It's true
>
influences come and go, and we can never understand everything, but the
>
more we can understand the more fully the depth of a poet's work can be
>
realized. My view is that each of us
carries within us the entire
>
consciousness of the human race, and while much of that is unconscious,
>
the more that is brought to light, gives us a better understanding of
>
ourselves and thus our humanness, which is the concern of every poet.
>
It's true that to analyze the shit out of something sometimes dimishes
>
from the initial truth and beauty of it.
That's a thin line walked by
>
literary critics. But on the whole I
think examining how and why writers
>
wrote certain things overall enlarges the scope of their work.
> DC
my
point is that one's influences change dramatically in a different
lifetime. and the significance of the influence
changes during the
lifetime
as well. someone who is MAJOR in the
early years may become
minor
as an influence in later writings. a
non-literati example, dylan
is
incredibly influenced by Guthrie in the early days. after Highway
61, the
Guthrie influence is minor and later very very difficult to
catch
for the untrained ear/eye. some folks
during their lifetime take
compleat
flip-flops concerning influences. i was
so turned on the first
time i
read Kerouac. later i thought,
blasphemously, "whatever" he's
just
looking out a car window, now i'm back to gobbling him up like
fancy
food. not that i'm a poet mind you.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:34:42 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
Attila Gyenis wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I think religion's concept of heaven (and hell) is a way to have poor
people
>
> accept their fate instead of fighting for justice.
>
>
>
> It's a way for many people to do what they want, knowing that they have a
>
> chance to repent at the end.
>
>
>
> It allows people to not be accountable for their actions here on earth,
>
> because they are being graded up in heaven.
>
>
>
> And of course, the real question is whether there really is a heaven. And
if
>
> there isn't, it it acceptable to say there is a heaven just so that they
(the
>
> church) can herd the people in a certain direction?
>
>
>
> Hypothetical question: Does a rock have a 'purpose'. Is it a bigger or
>
> smaller purpose then a human. Is it a better or worse purpose then a
human's.
>
> I
don't think that with the religious conception of heaven, a person can
> do
anything he wants eyeing the repentence at the end as a guarantee of
>
entrance to heaven. I thought that
doing it with that notion would imply
>
the opposite. Saying, for instance, I'm
going to murder this person
>
today, repent tomorrow, and then everything will be OK and I'll still go
> to
heaven was a distinct no-no. That is
not a sincere repentance. Maybe
> I
am putting forth the protestant concept here and the catholic one is
>
different, I don't know.
>
>
Hypothetical answer--A rock does have a purpose and it is no greater or
>
smaller a purpose than a human one.
Also not better or worse. All things
>
exist equally in the moment.
>
> DC
i have
a distinct memory of connecting with a frog-shaped rock in the
garden
at 1012 Marquette in Davenport, Iowa.
Not necessarily talk but
more an
affective link something like "i'm here, life pretty constant, i
see
comings and goings and am invisible to most." i learned a lot from
that
rock about invisibility.
[post
hallucinogenic period story]
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:43:02 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: sunspots
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
>
sunspots burning in your eyes
>
hope they dont burn out
> or
i don't gouge them inadvertently
>
which happens sometimes
> to
people i love
>
but don't worry i don't love you
> i
love my typewriter
> it
never lies
> or
looks at me with deceiving eyes
>
who pretend to hold
>
brightness.
i'd
like the brand on that saintly typewriter.
hell -
give me one for Xmas.
if my
keyboard doesn't deceive
than my
fingertips certainly do.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:58:20 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: last words..part 1(actual title:
"Secrets")
Comments:
To: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970617125059_-126888412@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Maya,
Your paper reminds me of some of Alice
Walker's ideals.
Particularly
the concepts found in her novel, _Temple of My Familiar_.
Have
you ever read her?
Keep up the creative work; I've
enjoyed and been inspired by
your
contributions for quite some time now.
Jenn
Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:48:44 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Best concept
Comments:
To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
...
noticed how
>
children from the same parents seem to have different parents and even
>
different "lives". If you
have watched, it will convince you that
we
>
are reincarnated.
>
>
When he was 3, Richard told me that we live in a desert and that Jesus
>
brings us water.
Mr.
Kirby:
In case
you haven't read these books, you would certainly find them
interesting,
perhaps:
Anderson,
Ian: Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation (Charlottesville
Press,
VA), University Press of Virginia, 1974
--Children
Who Remember Their Past Lives (Charlottes Press) University
Press
of Virginia, 1987
Dr.
Anderson has spent most of his adult life interviewing children such
as your
son who describe previous life events. Dr. Anderson, then
documents
these descriptions against this life as much as possible. He
has
come closer to actual documentaiton of reincarnation than any
researcher
I have heard about.
Or a
more Commerically oriented book by:
Whitton,
Joel L, Fisher, Joe: Life Between Life, (New York: Doubleday,
1986).
-Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:59:17 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: t.v.
Comments:
To: Marioka7@aol.com
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
What's
this all about? I thought the "wrong button" refered only to the
fact
that David sent us a post that he meant to send to another address.
By the
way having just returned from a month's absence from the list I
was
absolutely delighted to find your youth full voice resonating so
brightly
in our midst. You have put some amount of energy, dedication
and
passion for the future of humanity in the work that you posted for
us to
consider. The delete button works well for any of us when
something
is too whatever for our interest.
Not
that I agree with all of your conclusions. I don't think, for
example
that those of us who chose to resist oppression wasted our
lives,
or empowered the oppressors. It may well turn out that all of the
ways
that good people arrive at are needed and useful. I hope that your
posts
will continue to brighten our list.
BTW, in
response to your earlier question, yes I was around in the
sixties.
You can see some earlier posts about that in
http://www.levity.com/corduroy/journals/tabory.htm
Two
more cents about "born too late". While I am glad I was around
things
that were happening then, I am no less happy to be around things
that
are happening today. You have more exciting tomorrows to look
forward
to than yesterdays. As thrilling as those may seem. Disaffection
from
the prevailing bs of the day was and is our quest for better things
to
come. I hope your posts continue.
Leon
Maya
Gorton wrote:
In a
message dated 97-06-19 02:30:00 EDT, you write:
>
>
<<
> sorry about that one - hit the wrong button
in the address book --
> imagine that!
> >>
>
>
sorry about all previous messages. Must have been hitting the wrong button in
>
the address book this whole time--imagine that! i grovel in humiliation and
>
tremble in anticipation of your wrath.
Flay me! Flagellate me! Scorn me with
>
your Beatness! I will now recede back
into my dark shell of lurkerdom.
>
>
"I can see the color of souls, and yours is white"
>
"i belong to her. I've belonged to her and I didn't know it. Goodbye,
>
daughter. The curse! the curse!"
>
"I will pray every day for you. From my dark well of loneliness i will
pray
>
for you"
>
===== loops from: confessions of a knife, the Thrill Kill Kult (which IS a
>
beat-related band, thankyouverymuch)
>
>
Piece, -----------------maya
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 12:59:22 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: Cool cars
Comments:
To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
> At
10:39 PM 6/18/97 -0400, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>In a message dated 97-06-18 18:19:08 EDT, you write:
>
>
>
><< Mine looks that way anyway!!!! But has any poet/literary geek ever
driven
>
>a
>
> cool car? >>
>
>I had a cool '53 Buick Riviera in 1953, if you want to read about in it
LOM.
>
>I spit Oxybiotic on the door and it ate the paint off. I also had a '52
MGTD
>
>that Billy Batman gave us on the streets of SF in 1967. The last cool car I
>
>had was a '66 Mustang convertible which had a photo of Janis Joplin in it
and
>
>cassette with the original Mustang Sally by Wicked Wilson Pickett. I think
>
>that's cool though you might I think I'm a geek or a freak.
>
>Charles Plymell
>
> No one on this list is a geek or a
freak. We're the only normal people
in
>
the world! Call me stupid....but what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara
>
>
"Oxy-Biotic
will make you neurotic.... "
see....
Plymell,
Charles: Last of the Moccasins, (Albuquerque, NM, Mother Road
Publications,
1996), pp 29-31.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:31:37 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Last Word (secrets) continued
In a
message dated 97-06-17 13:04:37 EDT, Marioka7@AOL.COM (Maya Gorton)
writes:
<<
DO YOU FEEL IT IN YOUR BRAIN? DO YOU
FEEL IT IN YOUR VEIN?
i do not feel it here nor there! nor
ANYWHERE!
NOT IN MY BRAIN
NOT IN THE RAIN
ALL IS IN VAIN
I MUST BE
INSANE.............
>>
I am
pretty sure that this is Dr. Seuss, so I must assume that Dr. Seuss is a
Beat.
I do
not like green eggs and ham,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:37:51 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: reincarnation
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I went
to my newsreader. There is a new
newsgroup,
alt.paranormal.reincarnation. I figured, there are on accidents, I
subscribed.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:32:09 -0400
Reply-To: Ted Harms
<tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Ted Harms
<tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: tracking Ginsberg quote
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Can any
of Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fragment
for
me. All I can remember about it is
something about 'Chinamen and
their
secret heroes'.
Thanks
in advance.
Of
course, I'm going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't from
AG...
Ted
Harms Library,
Univ. of Waterloo
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761
"...it's
elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:07:41 EDT
Reply-To: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe
<100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: The cows know
>Humans
are one of the few animals (if not the only animal) that are aware of
>the
fact that they are going to die. They have this knowledge from a very
>Attila
Attila, haven't you heard the Meat is Murder
album by a British band called
The Smiths?
The album begins with the sound of cows being herded into an
Abattoir.
The cows really sound like they are aware and know they're going to
die!
I'm not nitpicking at you Attila and this is
not a stab at meat-eaters - if it
were I'd be stabbing myself!
Joe
NewCastleUnitedKingdom
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:58:56 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: The Poet as Human
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In
response to Maya's:
>
Well, sounds like you've got it goin' on.
But while you're busy
>
defining yourself as a poet, don't forget to step down and be a
> human
being sometimes too.
>
Are you familiar with "the Last Poets"? They read poetry to drums
>
and other noise.-----------------maya
To be
human is to be poet. Ralph Waldo Emerson writes in his essay, 'The
Poet':
"[T]he poet's habit of
living should be set on a key so low
that the common influences should
delight him. His cheerfulness
should be the gift of the sunlight;
the air should suffice for his
inspiration, and he should be tipsy
with water . . .
"Poets are thus
liberating gods."
This
isn't much different from Kerouac's "List of Essentials":
#2.
Submissive to everything, open, listening
#4.
Be in love with yr life
#29. You're a Genius all the time
[or, what you write is
pure genius]
My relationship with "The Last
Poets" is mostly musical. I don't learn
from
them as poets. The artists for me are those who move me to write,
who
demand of myself to add to what has been created. #29 must always be
kept in
mind, as well, it must be kept in check.
Joseph
Neudorfer
neudorf@discovland.net