beat list 1997

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:58:20 -0400

Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject: Burroughs at UCLA tribute for Ginsberg?

There is a tribute scheduled for Saturday, 21 June at UCLA for Allen

Ginsberg. William S. Burroughs is listed among those scheduled to perform.

This is not true. Mr. Burroughs will NOT be there, nor did he ever promise to

be there, according to his personal secretary, James Grauerholz.

Please distribute this information as widely as possible; forward this letter

freely. It's important that people not believe they're going to hear this

legend speak about AG, only to be disappointed when they get there.

Diane

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 17:10:00 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Burroughs at UCLA tribute for Ginsberg?

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Diane De Rooy wrote:

> There is a tribute scheduled for Saturday, 21 June at UCLA for Allen

> Ginsberg. William S. Burroughs is listed among those scheduled to perform.

> This is not true. Mr. Burroughs will NOT be there, nor did he ever promise to

> be there, according to his personal secretary, James Grauerholz.

> Please distribute this information as widely as possible; forward this letter

> freely. It's important that people not believe they're going to hear this

> legend speak about AG, only to be disappointed when they get there.

> Diane

and it's too late to cash in the plane tickets ... damn luck.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:47:51 -0400

Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

In a message dated 97-06-19 04:19:14 EDT, you write:

<< > Humans are one of the few animals (if not the only animal) that are

aware of

> the fact that they are going to die.

How do you know this? How do you support this claim? Can you provide

documentation to support this claim? (Michael L. Buchenroth)>>

Yes, it was in my copy of INTRODUCTION TO LIFE MANUAL, page 73. It was in the

chapter on how to grow up to be a normal maladjusted adult with typical

neuroses, cynicism, and general discontent.

My feeling is that, for whatever reason, humans have a different level of

consciousness then other animals (just like dogs have a different level of

consciousness then worms).

Do you think worms know at an early age that they are going to die?

I don't know if dogs do, though I think they understand what death is. I

heard that the rescue dogs that look for survivors in a bombed out buildings

etc-- that after a few searches where all they find is dead people, that they

have to set it up so that they "find" a survivor because otherwise they get

too depressed.

And just because I do believe that some animals are lower or higher on the

"consciousness chain", it doesn't mean that the lower animals are not

important.

Well now I have to go back to read my chapter on "How to tie knots so the

lugguage doesn't go flying off the roof rack".

enjoy, Attila

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Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 01:19:29 +0200

Reply-To: danneman@Update.UU.SE

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Daniel Brattemark <danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>

Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?

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Sara Feustle wrote:

> I myself am a whopping 21, and I am soooooo pissed off about all the stuff

> I missed for being born so late!!!! Anybody else in the same predicament?

I am 23 and yes I am pissed, thinking about all that I missed. I'm also

annoyed being born so early. Imagine what I won't see in the future.

Still I wouldn't like to see myself in the mirror at the age of 200. I'd

be reeeally ugly. So all things considered, I'm happy.

-daniel

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:30:21 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: what i'm thinking about right now (stream of Con-shus-niss)

where the trees end and the sky begins

my sky my moon no-one else knows (or do they?)

where you see the corners in the sad/happy/sad/happy of the river.

my head swells and bursts, pouring pure love on all the birds.

She always had a phobia of birds. They looked like dinosaurs to her.

Mesozoic pigeons. The horror of wings flapping and the screech. Bloody

beaks. Round eyes that held the moon. Cold sharp tongues

I like the paths you carve in my mind. To travel them, hoping. To find you

there. And always, we are naked.

Or dead.

i don't want to wake up. my arms hurt even though they were amputated long

ago.

yesterday she cried on my shoulder and i had to change my goddam shirt for

all the mascara.

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 18:40:42 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: what i'm thinking about right now (stream of Con-shus-niss)

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Maya Gorton wrote:

> where the trees end and the sky begins

> my sky my moon no-one else knows (or do they?)

> where you see the corners in the sad/happy/sad/happy of the river.

huck and jim float one way

waving and

yelling

"Hey"

Siddhartha rowing

the

other

and

which

way

will

called

upstream

and

which

way

downstream

and

who

will

decide

what

name

each

the

falling

leaves

that

make

the

robin

cry

and

the

lonesome

die

> my head swells and bursts, pouring pure love on all the birds.

> She always had a phobia of birds. They looked like dinosaurs to her.

> Mesozoic pigeons. The horror of wings flapping and the screech. Bloody

> beaks. Round eyes that held the moon. Cold sharp tongues

> I like the paths you carve in my mind. To travel them, hoping. To find you

> there. And always, we are naked.

> Or dead.

Robin red breast

sings a song of spring

in my ear

while pecking

out a marching rhythm

thump de de thump

on my ear drum

and the Raven

flies in front

two sparrows and a dozen Black Crowes

and descend on my

waiting heart

and devour it

while

still

beats

> i don't want to wake up. my arms hurt even though they were amputated long

> ago.

along with my brain

> yesterday she cried on my shoulder and i had to change my goddam shirt for

> all the mascara.

i am filled with jealousy

i cried

own

mascara

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:24:23 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: cats

Lena:

Tell Bill to try not to step on Fletch's tail so maybe he won't jump and

scratch at strangers so much.

Charley

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:42:01 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: best concept

I am finally on the reading list with Leonardo da Vinci. Hey, Rinaldo can I

come to Rapallo? We'll make a sculpture of Benny Bufano.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:51:06 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ReBirth Generation

In a message dated 97-06-19 01:43:27 EDT, you write:

<< Hopefully you will have heard Kenneth Rexroth with jazz

accompaniment, or Lawrence Ferlinghetti. The point here is that what

I've heard is not that extraordinary. The poets and musicans separately

are much more accomplished than any of us, but together they are not

convincing. >>

Yeah, that's too bad that Ferlinghetti tried a lot of things that didn't

work. It was kind of a fad reading to jazz. More difficult than one thinks.

The best I've heard is Kerouac on the Steve Allen show (who was he with; I

can hear some of the poetry, but can't recall the musician's name.) The other

poet I thought had a good jazz ear was Kenneth Patchen.

Paul Bley lives here in Cherry Valley. We've thought about working together.

I arranged for him to do a gig with Burroughs years ago. We could probably

pull it off, but his compositions are privately progressive. It's something,

if it clicks it's great, but most poets can't tell when it clicks.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:02:41 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Best concept

Bentz:

Well, bless them. I think it was Gandhi who drew the parallel of higher

relationship of humans to how they treat animals. It is kind of risky saving

turtles. I usually have thick gloves and heavy cardboard (for a scoop). Pam

usually tries to herd them while I try to direct traffic. The problem is the

fool drivers try to concentrate on you instead of what your doing and

sometimes get detracted and run over the animals.

My daughter works for the NC Aquarium and she has a group called NEST which

treats sick sea turtles and camps out on the beach to make sure the baby

turtles go out to sea. I love to go to the outer banks when I can. When the

sea turtles recover, she and a friend usually takes them in a kiddies pool to

the coast guard to take them out to the warm current; or one time down to Sea

World down in FL who does give them a good home. There have been lots of

them wash up with a kind of immune disease.

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:13:38 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cool cars

In a message dated 97-06-19 04:23:16 EDT, you write:

<< didn't you have a cool-car here in Salina back in '49????

Yeah, 49 Caddy maroon like Robert Williams drew on the cover of Last of the

Moccasins. Can't believe how smooth the V8 flathead could run. Was pushing it

to see Eartha Kitt in New Faces at a drive-in. I missed her in NYC recently.

She now lives somewhere in upstate, maybe I'll get to see her yet. If I still

had that 49 Caddy, I wouldn't be afraid to park it in her garage.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:16:01 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

In a message dated 97-06-19 04:24:10 EDT, you write:

<< How do you know this? How do you support this claim? Can you provide

documentation to support this claim?

Elephants go to a meeting place when they are ready to die. I think it's

because they have a long memory and sad eyes.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:33:20 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cool cars

In a message dated 97-06-19 07:56:01 EDT, you write:

<< .but what's "Oxybiotic?" --Sara >>

OK Sara, I've 'bout run out of post toasties for tonight only allowed ten.

You can read about in my Last of the Moccasins. As far as I know it was

peculiar to the Midwest in the mid 1950s. A lot of jazzheads dispersed from

Kansas City after Norman Grantz put together Kansas City Jazz at the

Philharmonic scene. Of course, Charlie Parker was born and lived in Kansas

City, KS and played down in Wichita, El Dorado, Tulsa and Oklahoma City,

etal. My first taste of jazz and nose inhalers was from some of those cats

namely Pack Rat who played a cool bass and cut the cotton out of nose

inhalers to stay high on. It was an amphetamine or methedrine rush. Oxybiotic

was a liquid form of nose drops that must of contained a great amount of

amphetamine. It was put out by Rexall Drugstores, a chain in the Midwest. We

would drink a few ounces from the bottle usually mixed with orange juice and

stay high for days and nights, sometimes weeks. I invented the term lounge

lizard because we would stay after hours and talk all night in an amphetamine

rush. By high I mean like the scalps tiny pores exuding electric energy. I

have never taken anything quite as strong since. Of course, many musicians

and especially the hilly billy singers had fruit jars full of dexidrene which

contain a similar ingredient and was popular in the 50s. In Mexico we could

get crisscross benzedrine which I gave to my friend driving down there in the

50s. He talked to himself for thousands of miles, turned a kind of pale

green, I lay in the back seat and slept. Neal used to give methedrine pills

when I would take off on driving binges and as a speed freak that was his

favorite drug other than pot. As I say I have never had anything as strong as

the Oxybiotic nose drops and I have never heard of them in other Beat lexica,

as was Benzedrine and amphetamines so I guess they were limited to that area

and that time. Even though this was in the 50s I had driven around the

country to hear Charlie Parker, Hank Williams and Elvis perform, but did not

know of the Beat generation.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:35:06 -0400

Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject: Re: heroin and aging

Comments: To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

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At 08:06 PM 6/18/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

>In a message dated 97-06-18 14:24:45 EDT, you write:

><<

> whoa there! this thread may be dead, as i am crushed under tons of email

> from a few days away from list, but go down to any methadone clinic, any

> innercity and the idealism will fall away. i worked for 3 years in a new

> haven ct methadone clinic: i counseled i wept and i buried so many people,

> i've been there myself. there is no glory in it there is no eternal youth

> fountain in it. tortured people tortured bodies. wsb is the exception to

> the rule. ok standing down from my soap box

> mc

> >>

>i agree 100% but was just making observation that many of my idols are very

>well preserved ex-dope addicts. Is this more than coincidence?

>(((((((((((((((((((((NOBODY KNOWS))))))))))))))))))))))))))

>i certainly wouldn't encourage anyone to try to find out.

>-------------------------------maya("dope is for dope-heads")

I think it can be compared to those who win the lottery. They're very

lucky indeed to survive as long as they do.

Greg Elwell elwellg@voicenet.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:48:33 -0400

Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Author's Note (fwd)

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On another list, Ron P Whitehead wrote:

> The Fear And Loathing Letters, Volume I

> THE PROUD HIGHWAY

> Hunter S. Thompson

> Saga Of A Desperate Southern Gentleman

> Edited by Douglas Brinkley

> Foreword by William J. Kennedy

I've recently become completely immersed in this book. These letters are as

good as many of Hunter's fine prose works, and reading them chronologically

serves to illuminate the years just before and during the time he "makes

it." A valuable document indeed.

I haven't read all of the Hunter bios that are out there, but the

introduction to this book is the first time I've seen it spelled out in

print that Hunter's shenanigans are almost completely fictitious. Not that

most would believe some of it, but I've always had trouble discerning where

the line between his fiction and reality is drawn -- well, yeah, as if there

_were_ any "objective reality" anyway.

Like Corso says, "I am 25,"

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:09:31 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: A half century of Joyce?

In a message dated 97-06-19 15:15:10 EDT, you write:

<< I am just starting to read your work. Have visited your web site a

number of times and intend to visit it many more. I am just now sitting

here ready to begin to read an autographed copy of Last of the Moccasins

that I ordered from Jeffrey. I just got Dr. Sax too, so maybe I can

enter the Moccasins/Dr. Sax discussion at some point. As far as the

CORNIX thing goes, can someone post as to what software one needs to

really view it in the way it is meant to be viewed, and if it is possible

to download it from somewhere. Also. I am curious as to your opinion of

Joyce and did you read him extensively at any point?

Diane:

Michael Buchenroth has done all of this for me and is now helping me set up

my own machine to see the words jump and flash. Without the flash point the

whole experiment is lost. Pam says it may have something to do with your

browser. Michael and Stutz were the ones who helped me with the CORNIX flash

that I became interested in. The other works are in normal type.

The Joyce question I'm afraid takes me back in time too far. In college he

was the hep canon so everyone was expected to read him. I hated him cause I

had to read him. Then saw his genius in little bits. Then damned him and my

wife's relative Sylvia for publishing him thinking that his influence ruined

American literature and of course I'm ultra agnostic and don't give a shit

about religions. The Buddhist way of life or religion comes nearest to my

plane here on earth. Ginsberg always thought that I was against his Buddhism,

but I was just against his prosletizing and posing. I remember when I

introduced him at Folger's Shakespeare Theater he made the stage people go

through all this hell to get his pillow right so he could sit his ass on it

properly, etc. These were all pretensions that gradually wore on me, but I do

agree with someone's earlier post about Allen using tabloid lines to speak

his histerical (my word) passions. In an earlier post that when I read with

him an intellectual audience was more interested in his tabloid poetry but

this is a valid insight I've learned tonight.

Thanks for buying the book and please join in on the discussion. I think I

said that at one point that Kerouac was pounding toward epiphany and now that

word seems over used a bit. So now maybe I'll have to think of a different

one.

Allen was also a born teacher and tried to teach me Kerouac's poetics. He was

also wanted to control things and that sometimes violated a trust a took for

granted. In later years he seemed to be listening to "other voices" too much.

And our friendship reverted to cordiality. I empathized better in later years

with Burroughs who always had a charming true criminality and I felt a

certain honesty was never violated.

Charles Plymell

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:07:03 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: tracking Ginsberg quote

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Ted Harms wrote:

> Can any of Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fragment

> for me. All I can remember about it is something about 'Chinamen and

> their secret heroes'.

> Thanks in advance.

> Of course, I'm going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't from

> AG...

> Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo

> tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761

> "...it's elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology

The only thing it brings to mind for me is two different lines from Howl

that aren't real close together but if you were listening to the whole

thing read, you might remember them as part of the whole.

"who jumped in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse

of winter midlight streetlight smalltown rain..."

and about 15 verses later

"who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N.C.,

secret hero of these poems..."

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:18:27 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

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From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg

And both these boys ended up whores of Moloch.

C. Plymell

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:53:15 -0500

Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot

In-Reply-To: <33A9886D.1447@together.net>

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>> Bill Gargan wrote:

>> >

>> > I'm not sure that I'd agree that a major distinction between Eliot and

>> > Ginsberg was that Ginsberg turned away from Europe. In fact much of hi=

>> > poetry is influenced by European writers, particularly surrealist poets=

=2E

>> > He was also influenced by Rimbaud, Essenin, Mayakovsky, Celine, to

>> > mention a few. If you look at "Gates of Wrath," I think you'll see

>> > Ginsberg's early poems reveal heavy 17th century English influences, a

>> > style promoted by Eliot and the New Critics. But Ginsberg quickly

>> > rejected that style. Ginsberg biggest difference from Eliot is probabl=

>> > that he wanted to return poetry to its roots in song. As he grew older=

>> > he seemed to move more and more in this direction. Sure, he was

>> > greatly influenced by Whitman and Williams but he was also a son of

>> > William Blake.

>RACE --- wrote:

>> i think that this makes an INCREDIBLY useful point. To package a poet

>> into a neat bundle and then look at the influences on the package seems

>> to make the poet less than human. Poets live their life in time too and

>> the influences come and go - just like they do for us "normal" folks :)

>> david rhaesa

>> salina, Kansas

>I am very interested in studying the Blake/Ginsberg connection more, and

>in looking at some of the writings Tony Trigilio referenced earlier. I

>have always seen Blake when reading Ginsberg but have never read anything

>Ginsberg wrote about Blake.

>As far as "to package a poet into a neat bundle and look at the

>influences on the package seems to make a poet less human," I think I

>see the opposite. First of all no poet can be packaged in a neat bundle,

>it just can't be done, and I give that point to some who think I have

>done so with Eliot. Looking at the influences on a particular poet,

>however, can actually make that poet come more alive. It's true

>influences come and go, and we can never understand everything, but the

>more we can understand the more fully the depth of a poet's work can be

>realized. My view is that each of us carries within us the entire

>consciousness of the human race

Reminds me again:

Myself, anyhow, maybe as old as the universe--and I guess that dies with

us--enough to cancel all that comes--What came is gone forever

every time-- (ginberg)

--leo

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:55:09 -0500

Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Subject: Re: what i'm thinking about right now (stream of Con-shus-niss)

In-Reply-To: <33A9C37A.7229@midusa.net>

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>Maya Gorton wrote:

>> where the trees end and the sky begins

>> my sky my moon no-one else knows (or do they?)

>> where you see the corners in the sad/happy/sad/happy of the river.

Here's a little Tom Petty wisdom:

Where the horizon ends, the sky begins,

despite the best intentions.

What else can i say besides i think TP's kind of a hilbilly rock n' roll

beat. Anyone like to comment on that morsel?

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Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 21:59:44 -0500

Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Subject: Re: tracking Ginsberg quote

In-Reply-To: <33AA1E07.56CD@together.net>

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>Ted Harms wrote:

>> Can any of Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fragmen=

>> for me. All I can remember about it is something about 'Chinamen and

>> their secret heroes'.

>> Thanks in advance.

>> Of course, I'm going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't from

>> AG...

>> Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo

>> tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761

>> "...it's elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology

>The only thing it brings to mind for me is two different lines from Howl

>that aren't real close together but if you were listening to the whole

>thing read, you might remember them as part of the whole.

>"who jumped in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse

> of winter midlight streetlight smalltown rain..."

>and about 15 verses later

>"who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N.C.,

>secret hero of these poems..."

>DC

There's the line from America where Ginsberg says something like: the east

is rising against me; i don't have a chinaman's chance.

'Chinamen ans their secret heroes' sounds familiar though.

--leo jilk

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:38:47 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: tracking Ginsberg quote

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Sinverg=FCenza wrote:

>=20

> >Ted Harms wrote:

> >>

> >> Can any of Ginsberg fans (Ginsbergians? Ginsbergaphiles?) trace a fr=

agment

> >> for me. All I can remember about it is something about 'Chinamen an=

> >> their secret heroes'.

> >>

> >> Thanks in advance.

> >>

> >> Of course, I'm going to feel like a real knob if this line isn't fro=

> >> AG...

> >>

> >> Ted Harms Library, Univ. of Waterloo

> >> tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761

> >> "...it's elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology

> >

> >The only thing it brings to mind for me is two different lines from Ho=

> >that aren't real close together but if you were listening to the whole

> >thing read, you might remember them as part of the whole.

> >

> >"who jumped in limousines with the Chinaman of Oklahoma on the impulse

> > of winter midlight streetlight smalltown rain..."

> >

> >and about 15 verses later

> >

> >"who went out whoring through Colorado in myriad stolen night-cars, N.=

C.,

> >secret hero of these poems..."

> >

> >DC

>=20

> There's the line from America where Ginsberg says something like: the e=

ast

> is rising against me; i don't have a chinaman's chance.

> 'Chinamen ans their secret heroes' sounds familiar though.

>=20

> --leo jilk

unconscious cut-ups of all of the above perhaps.....

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

p.s.

Just got back from teaching salina kansas how to dance to a blues/jazz

band in a Park. salina kansas were slow learners. i may never be able

to walk again. already feeling muscles screaming that haven't screamed

in 92 years.

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:35:47 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> And both these boys ended up whores of Moloch.

> C. Plymell

Charles:

Damn good point. I am going to send a batch of posts to Hal. From my

brief, but eternal talk with him, I think he would agree with this. It

is interesting that with Allen's recent death that all walk in highest

praise of him. Like everyone else, I wanted to remember all the good of

Ginsberg. I do the same with myself everyday to maintain this facade

of "sanity". But, like of all of us, he had his warts. And it is

amusing to consider your imagry here.

It will take a while to get this stuff to Hal, but I will let you know

if he responds.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:44:52 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: lurker speaks

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Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:

> I reread Howl this afternoon...and I think not so much that it is

> misunderstood as suffering from a very specialized and narrow

> audience. I read it and thought.....period piece...I don't think it

> will transcend time... Usually people can empathsize and relate to

> another's emotional trauma...but it is very difficult to connect to

> Ginsberg in Howl. I do have an appreciation for the poem...he does

> convey some stunning ideas and displays verbal dexterity and wit...... I

> feel as if people who can relate, would really hoist this poem as the

> icon of the the time and/ or experience...it would be ...the emblem poem

> that it is.. But as a reader, I'm an outsider, gawking and

> rubber-necking a tragedy I can only witness from afar and listen to the

> howling without ever wanting to howl myself.

> Barb

Barb,

Howl, as well as the rest of the poetry of Ginsberg, will stand the test

of time. You and I obviously come from very different experiences. When

I first discovered Howl, it literally saved my life. It was not until he

died and I read the hundreds of memorials posted on various web pages

that I saw in writing what I had known intellectually all along. That he

truly touched the souls of masses of people, many whom would not be alive

today if his words had not given them the freedom and power to be

themselves. And beyond that, to write of themselves. Not only do I

identify with Howl, although I wasn't born until the fifies, I knew that

it marked the beginning of a time when poetry would no longer be the same

again. It marked a time when no longer would the same limits be placed

on thought or the poetry that came from that thought. In his incredible

body of work, of which Howl is just the cornerstone, Ginsberg gave us a

new definition of how humanness, every little speck of humanness, could

indeed be poetic. He also spoke of America, an imperfect America, and

how it is necessary for poets to address the culture which is at their

feet. But the big thing about Ginsberg is that he was remained positive

in addressing the darkness of the mind and what he saw as the darkness of

America. While he pointed the the dusty, rotting imageless locomotives,

he also pointed to the sunflower of the soul.

I cannot understand how you cannot relate to the emotional trauma of

Howl! How can you possibly not want to howl yourself? Life is a howl.

I would urge you to start to howl. Find it inside of yourself.

The rhythm of Ginsberg's poetry is the rhythm of life in America today.

When you say that "I think that Howl and many of his major works...are

limited, and honestly will end up, not as the major voice of the 20th c.,

but a voice of a period for a particular subsect of the population," I

have to wonder how much of Ginsberg you have read. He was a major voice

in the twentieth century but he obviously did not take poetry in the

direction you want it to go.

You are reading beat literature but you don't really see it as enduring.

Only time will tell. I for one think it will. But for that to happen

beat literature has to keep being published, being taught in schools and

colleges all over this country equally, so that people continue to read

it, and whole new generations of writers develop their own voices from

the influences of the beats.

I seriously want to know what path your line of thought takes in terms of

twentieth century poetry. You mentioned, "I am awed by Plath, Sexton,

Rich, Bishop, Levertov, Walker...Women with strong voices, writing on

issues that concern not only women, but humanity." What did these women

say that inspired you in a way that Ginsberg does not? The confessional

mode of writing is a uniquely twentieth century development but although

Plath and Sexton got their concerns out in words, it did not, could not,

save their own lives. I don't think that their writing will stand the

test of time. Do you?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:54:47 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot

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RACE --- wrote:

>> my point is that one's influences change dramatically in a different

> lifetime. and the significance of the influence changes during the

> lifetime as well. someone who is MAJOR in the early years may become

> minor as an influence in later writings. a non-literati example, dylan

> is incredibly influenced by Guthrie in the early days. after Highway

> 61, the Guthrie influence is minor and later very very difficult to

> catch for the untrained ear/eye. some folks during their lifetime take

> compleat flip-flops concerning influences. i was so turned on the first

> time i read Kerouac. later i thought, blasphemously, "whatever" he's

> just looking out a car window, now i'm back to gobbling him up like

> fancy food. not that i'm a poet mind you.

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

David,

First of all, you are a poet. And, now that you've explained it more, I

also agree with what you say about one's influences changing tremendously

in a lifetime. Everyone is influenced by many different things, and

these things are constantly changing. That's why the study of

literature, music, whatever, is so much fun.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 00:15:05 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: David

MIME-Version: 1.0

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David:

Of course you're a poet, that is what is wrong with you and all the

other people who are on this list and the Celtics list. ;-)

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:26:58 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: David

MIME-Version: 1.0

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> David:

> Of course you're a poet, that is what is wrong with you and all the

> other people who are on this list and the Celtics list. ;-)

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

i aint no poet

my italian cousin Rinaldo is a poet

i am Superman

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:12:40 -0500

Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Subject: Second Beat Magazine

Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.

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Hey,

I know you've heard all of this before, but we're back.

Second Beat Magazine (more of a fanzine) is self-published fanzine put

together by two guys heavily influenced by the Beat Generation. It's main

function is to get new writers in print. We are open to submissions by

anyone, published or not, beat or not. We're just looking for poetry from a

range of new poets to publish.

We recently set subscription rates: $1.00 per issue, $10.00 per 12 issue

subscription (which should be about one year).

Two issues have been completed previous to this, of a lower quality than

the upcoming issues, and will be available as free sample issues.

Two issues have been planned ahead: the Ginsberg Memorial issue will be

issue number three and issue four will be devoted to dealing with a pesonal

issue with a church group having negative opinions on our message. Both

look to be interesting.

We are accepting submissions regarding the Ginsberg issue, but must insist

that they be soon as it is nearly ready for the presses.

If any of you have e-mailed me in the past, I would appreciate you sending

them as we have lost all of our e-mail files due to technical difficulties.

Thanks,

Thadeus D'Angelo, Camelia City Books

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:15:14 -0500

Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>

Subject: Second Beat part 2

Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

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Forgot to mention that you'll need to send the e-mails to:

<2ndbeat@telapex.com>

as I will be leaving the discussion list after this post.

Thanks again,

Thadeus D'Angelo, Camelia City Books

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:39:41 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: beat generation/milestone

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

DIED.

ALLEN GNSBERG, 70, quintes-

sential beatnik poet, of a

heart attack brought on by

chronic liver disease; in

New York City. Forming the

trinity of the 1950s Beat

generation along with Will

iam Burroghs and Jack Kero

uac, ginsberg captured pub

lic attention in 1956 with

HOWL, a long poem that ra

ged against a conformist s

ociety and dealt with his

homosexuality. In the '60s

and '70s, he was active in

both the hippie and antiwa

r movements. His poetry pr

efigured punk and New Age,

drawing inspiration from y

oga, Buddishm, Native Amer

ican mysticism, the Torah

and U.S. poets like Willia

m Carlos Williams.

T I M E THE WEEKLY NEWSMAGAZINE - april 21,1997

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:40:03 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: pidgin rant

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

tic! tic!! tic!!!

mon

sters

shall survive

& queues

the

postal office

---

Yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:56:04 -0500

Reply-To: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bob Fox <bfox@SIU.EDU>

Subject: Cassady; Drugs

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Here are two items from today's N.Y. TIMES that I'm passing along . . .

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[banner]

[toolbar]

June 20, 1997

A Young Neal Cassady, On the Road and Off

--------------------------------------------------------

Forum

* Join a Discussion on Movies

--------------------------------------------------------

By STEPHEN HOLDEN

[Y] ou didn't have to dye your hair green, pierce your

tongue and wear bizarre eye makeup to stand out as a

flaming rebel in the late 1940s. All you had to do was

chain-smoke, play pool, listen to be-bop and break

girls' hearts.

That's the portrait of the 20-year-old Neal Cassady

(flashily played by the newcomer Thomas Jane) that

emerges in Stephen Kay's snazzy-looking but slight film,

"The Last Time I Committed Suicide."

At 20, the man who became a guiding light of the Beat

Generation, inspiring Jack Kerouac's "On the Road" and

later joining Ken Kesey's psychedelic troupe the Merry

Pranksters, is portrayed as a hunky mixed-up kid with

too many hormones roiling around in his body.

The movie is based on a letter that the young Cassady

wrote to Kerouac when Cassady was living in Denver and

working the night shift at a Goodyear Tire factory. The

fragments of the letter heard over the soundtrack

suggest a fevered, semi-coherent stream-of-consciousness

running on a jazzy, hopped-up rhythm that became a

hallmark of Beat literature.

Kay has made that rhythm the visual pulse of his debut

feature film. Beyond recounting incidents in Cassady's

youth, the movie, whose soundtrack is drenched in

be-bop, aspires to be an impressionistic canvas of

America when the country, still dewy-eyed with postwar

optimism, was jumping out of its collective skin.

Almost every shot is drenched in rich period detail so

acute it has a surreal edge. When Cassady visits an

office where one of his girlfriends works as a typist,

the place is a hushed dimly lit cathedral to capitalism

in which elaborately coiffed secretaries sit in rigid

formation behind giant manual typewriters. Later, when

Cassady and some friends steal a bright red convertible

for a joy ride, the image of the cherry-red car jouncing

through a field with snowcapped mountains in the

background has the nostalgic tug of a Saturday Evening

Post cover illustration.

When not creating memorable visual tableaux, the film

observes Neal's frenetic love life as he zigzags between

the sad-eyed, suicidal Joan (Claire Forlani) and Cherry

Mary (Gretchen Mol), a sexually precocious teen-ager who

suggests the adolescent Shirley Temple gone bad. In his

spare time, Neal hangs out at a pool hall, drinking

beers with Harry, a lowlife crony who is 12 years his

senior.

Keanu Reeves, looking bloated and bleary-eyed, gives

Harry a woozy affability. Also popping up from time to

time is a skinny, spectacled friend named Ben (Adrien

Brody), who has a big crush on Neal and who appears to

be modeled after the young Allen Ginsberg.

As effectively as it evokes the late 1940s, "The Last

Time I Committed Suicide" has little dramatic momentum.

Although the film tries to suggest a wrenching inner

conflict between Neal's wanderlust and his fantasy of a

picture-perfect bourgeois life (he has recurrent dreams

of a house with a picket fence), there is clearly no

contest. If the movie is dramatically inert, it has the

charm of a lovingly assembled personal scrapbook. It's

clear in every frame of the film how strongly Kay

identifies with his legendary subject.

PRODUCTION NOTES:

'THE LAST TIME I COMMITTED SUICIDE'

With: Thomas Jane (Neal Cassady), Keanu Reeves (Harry),

Adrien Brody (Ben), Claire Forlani (Joan) and Gretchen

Mol (Cherry Mary). Written and directed by Stephen Kay;

based on a letter written by Neal Cassady to Jack

Kerouac; director of photography, Bobby Bukowski; edited

by Dorian Harris; music by Tyler Bates; production

designer, Amy Ancona; produced by Edward Bates and

Louise Rosner; released by Kushner-Locke Company, Roxie

Releasing and Tapestry Films.

Running time: 95 minutes. This film is rated R.

----------------------------------------------------------

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[banner] [I wish new was better. Click here for Microsoft Internet Explorer

4.0]

[toolbar]

June 20, 1997

Seductive Drug Culture Flourishes on Internet

By CHRISTOPHER S. WREN

[E] ven as parents, teachers and government officials

urge adolescents to say no to drugs, the Internet is

burgeoning as an alluring bazaar where anyone with a

computer can find out how to get high on LSD, eavesdrop

on what it is like to snort heroin or cocaine, check the

going price for marijuana or copy the chemical formula

for methamphetamine, the stimulant better known as

speed.

Teen-agers need only retreat to their ------

rooms, boot up the computer and click Today in

on a cartoon bumblebee named Buzzy to CyberTimes

be whisked on line, through a graphic

called Bong Canyon, to a mail-order ARTICLES AND

house in Los Angeles that promises COLUMNS

the scoop on "legal highs," "growing

hallucinogens," "cannabis alchemy," Internet Is a

"cooking with cannabis" and other Drug Bazaar

"trippy, phat, groovy things." for Children

By Christopher

Or they can download advice on S. Wren

cultivating marijuana plants from the

Web page of HempBC, a store in In New French

Vancouver, British Columbia, that Best-Seller,

offers "everything marijuana- and Software Meets

hemp-related: bongs to books, clothes Espionage

to cosmetics and more," including an By Steve

assortment of hemp and marijuana Ditlea

seeds.

China Unveils

"Anybody can set up a Web site," said Supercomputer

John Holmstrom, publisher of High By The

Times, a monthly magazine that has Associated

celebrated the marijuana culture for Press

more than two decades and created a

site of its own on the World Wide Web Panel Chief

two years ago. "There are hundreds of Says Computer

pro-marijuana sites out there. I Attacks Are

can't keep track of them." Sure to Come

By The

Alarms have rung in Congress and Associated

around the country about the risks Press

that online pornography pose to the

young. But few such warnings sound Fighting the

for what has become a virtual Technology Gap

do-it-yourself guide to drug use, at With

a time when adolescents' Old-Fashioned

experimenting is on the rise. Activism

By Jason

"We're really losing the war on the Chervokas &

Internet," said Kellie Foster, a Tom Watson

spokeswoman for the Community

Anti-Drug Coalitions of America, INTERNET Q&A

which hopes to establish its own Web By John Freed

site next month. "We've got to get

out there, and we're not." ------

The audience is certainly there. The TODAY'S

Center for Media Education, a SECTION FRONT

Washington group that monitors

quality on the Internet, reports that SEVEN-DAY

nearly 5 million children from 2 to INDEX

17 years of age used online services

in 1996 and that more than 9 million CYBERTIMES

college students use the Internet FORUMS

regularly.

CYBERTIMES

"We really are witnessing the NAVIGATOR

development of the most powerful

medium that has ever existed, in ------

terms of its ability to attract and

interest young people," said Jeff

Chester, the center's executive director.

The drug culture on the Internet has proliferated in

several ways. One is in the tolerance or outright

endorsement of illegal drugs, especially marijuana, in

online forums and chat groups. Another is in explicit

instructions for growing, processing and consuming

drugs.

[Image] Critics like Gen. Barry

McCaffrey, retired,

director of the White House

Office of National Drug Control Policy, say they also

detect a campaign on the Internet to undercut the

government's anti-drug policies by generating the

appearance of rising grass-roots sentiment for modifying

or scrapping drug laws.

"We say in a democracy that good ideas will drive out

bad ones," McCaffrey said in a telephone interview. "So

if the good ones aren't there, we're left with the bad

ones."

"The question," he said, "is not whether they have right

to put this kind of material out in the debate of ideas.

The question is, Do parents, teachers, coaches and

ministers understand that this information is out

there?"

The indications are that they do not. Because they are

less computer-literate than their children, many adults

have no clue that their warnings against illegal drugs

can be eclipsed by a few keystrokes.

And, partly owing to free-speech protection, the

Internet lacks a quality control mechanism to separate

fact from hyperbole or from outright falsehood, even in

discussion that may ultimately encourage an activity

that remains illegal, for Americans of all ages.

Online testimonials make recreational drugs sound like

fun.

Tripping out on LSD, a high school student reported,

"was one of the coolest things I've ever done."

A frequent snorter of cocaine said, "I always enjoy the

first toot," adding: "I can place a phone call and

within an hour get it delivered. It's as routine as

coffee in the morning. And just about as necessary."

There has even been a chat group for people "thinking of

trying heroin."

That kind of talk would be nothing new to a high school

or college bull session, but face-to-face contact can

help adolescents evaluate a speaker's credibility. The

anonymity of online discussion, in contrast, tends to

make even outlandish statements seem credible to

impressionable young eavesdroppers.

A connection among young people, drugs and the Internet

was noticed by Walter Shultz, the campus safety

coordinator for a suburban school district near

Pittsburgh, who says he discovered numerous online

promotions of local "raves" -- all-night dance parties

-- where designer stimulants like "cat" and "special-K"

were popular.

"There's no doubt in my [Image]

mind that they have

information on illegal

drugs and supply" through the Internet's links, Shultz

said. "Some of those take you into places where you

wouldn't want a child to go."

The online tolerance of drugs is in part a reflection of

the nature of Web discourse.

"The online world is the freest community in American

life," Jon Katz wrote in the April issue of Wired, a

magazine that analyzes the Internet. "Its members can do

things considered unacceptable elsewhere in our

culture."

That includes challenging any assumption that drug use

is wrong.

"I'd have to agree that the status quo folks are pretty

much being hammered," said Mark Greer, a director of the

Media Awareness Project, which uses the Internet to

lobby for the weakening or repeal of drug laws. "They

don't seem to even be trying to compete with us on the

Web."

"There are a lot of people," Greer said, "who have just

had it with the prohibitionist mentality. This is an

outlet where you can put in your time and really make a

difference."

Robert Curley, a freelance writer and consultant on

Internet use, estimates that three-quarters of the

online voices speaking about drugs favor some kind of

legalization.

"They definitely control the discussion on the

Internet," Curley said. "The pro-legalization people are

light-years ahead of the anti-legalization people."

One group, the Drug Reform Coordination Network, has

been working on line since 1993 to change drug laws,

although its founder, David Borden, distances its

campaign from unabashed proselytizing like that of High

Times.

"While we're friendly with them," Borden said, "we want

to stay away from anything seen as promoting the use of

drugs."

In a report last March, the Center for Media Education

accused alcohol and tobacco companies of promoting their

products on the Internet with "captivating, fun,

interactive sites that are very appealing to under-age

youth." Other critics are saying the same thing about

Web sites that promote marijuana with a sassiness that

leaves sober arguments against drug use looking pallid.

[Image] David L. Rosenbloom, president of Join

Together, a Boston organization that helps

community groups fight drug and alcohol

abuse, says marketers of marijuana seeds and drug

paraphernalia are copying the alcohol and tobacco

companies, which promote their products through glitzy

Web sites that have featured croaking Budweiser frogs

and a Camel cigarette Party Zone.

"Sophisticated graphics make a difference," Rosenbloom

said. "It's more powerful than television and radio,

because it is interactive."

Holmstrom, of High Times, says the monthly number of

electronic visits to his magazine's Web site has doubled

since last December. Now, he said, "we are averaging

200,000 home page visitors a month."

High Times dispenses an array of online advertising and

other services that Holstrom says have turned a profit,

like coaching on how to beat a drug test. The best of

the tips are left to a related telephone service, a call

to which costs $1.95 a minute.

A survey that the magazine conducted among its Web site

visitors found that 85 percent were male, 43 percent

were full-time students, and most were young. Holmstrom

says 64 percent of respondents identified themselves as

being 18 to 24 years old, and 12 percent 25 to 29 years

old. The number admitting to being under 18 was "not

significant," he says.

High Times posts a disclaimer on its Web site that says

users must be 18 or older. But "we can't prevent

under-age people from accessing the site without keeping

everybody off," Holmstrom said.

One clue to adolescence on the Internet is the

prevalence of cartoons in praise of marijuana.

A High Times cartoon showed a character called Pot-Peye

getting stoned with his chums. "I'm mellow to the

finish, 'cuz I smokes me spinach," said Pot-Peye, who

resembled the genuine Popeye.

A counterculture Web site called Paranoia had a cartoon

pothead declaring: "You know this stuff should be legal!

It can make an ordinary day so much brighter!"

The Internet also abounds in casual advice like the

"suggestions for first-time users" of "ecstasy," a

hallucinogenic stimulant that has been found to damage

the brains of monkeys in research at Johns Hopkins

University. Nicholas Saunders, the author of this online

advice, cautioned ecstasy neophytes only to "avoid

alcohol and other drugs, & if you are dancing, realize

that you may be dangerously overheated even without

feeling uncomfortable."

Anecdotal misinformation appears particularly rife in

online chat groups. When a man asked whether it was safe

to mix methamphetamine with alcohol -- a dangerous

combination, medical experts say -- a seasoned user

named Durto assured him, "Yeah, you can drink on speed,

and drink and drink."

Not all online drug information is pro-drug. Join

Together uses the Internet to help isolated community

groups around the country trade experiences in fighting

drug and alcohol abuse. Its Web site downloads for

subscribers more than 300,000 documents a month about

alcohol, tobacco and drugs.

"We're finding it a very powerful medium for

disseminating information much more rapidly and in a

user-friendly way," said Rosenbloom, Join Together's

president.

Ethan A. Nadelmann, the director of the Lindesmith

Center in New York, which advocates a liberalizing of

drug policies, said the Internet allowed an unfettered

discussion that government had foreclosed in more

structured public debate.

"The more the battle is played on this field, the more

drug reform policy advances," said Nadelmann, whose Web

site gets 30,000 to 40,000 visits a month.

The battle is not always civil. In late March, Greer,

one of the opponents of the drug laws, posted

instructions on the Internet for jamming the toll-free

number of the Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America.

The 5 calls he made in 10 minutes, Greer announced,

could be "quite devastating to Cadca if we can multiply

my efforts by a few thousand."

Ms. Foster, the Cadca spokeswoman, said her organization

had been forced to change its telephone format as a

result.

"While we're trying to spend money preventing children

from drug use," she said, "these people are trying to

spend our money so that we can't do positive work."

In a subsequent interview, Greer said his "call to

action" to inflate Cadca's telephone bill had been "a

kind of an experimental type thing." His

bread-and-butter advocacy is a weekly Focus Alert over

the Internet that encourages campaigns of letter-writing

to newspapers, to try to shape their coverage of drug

issues.

"I think that we've only just seen the tip of the

iceberg on the results that are going to promulgate from

Internet activism," Greer said. "You're at such a big

advantage if you're trying to get truth and accuracy

out."

----------------------------------------------------------

[I wish the web was designed for me. Click here for Microsoft Internet

Explorer 4.0]

--============_-1345321846==_============--

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:06:39 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

Drown yourself in the stream;

MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

Life is but a scream.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:18:10 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Ginsberg & Eliot

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

RACE --- wrote:

> i could never make it through Howl. tried so many times but got lost in

> all that structure.

>The best thing to get past what you see as the structure is to hear him read

it. I particularly like the old, 1959 recording he made, because I

think his voice of reading it is closest to what he felt when he wrote

it. Once you understand how he meant the lines to flow I think you will

be utterly taken with it. He also reads several other poems on it,

including America, and Sunflower Sutra, and I think just getting a sense

of the rhythm of his lines makes understanding future writings easier.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:31:42 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>Charles,

>> Damn good point. I am going to send a batch of posts to Hal. From my

> brief, but eternal talk with him, I think he would agree with this. It

> is interesting that with Allen's recent death that all walk in highest

> praise of him. Like everyone else, I wanted to remember all the good of

> Ginsberg. I do the same with myself everyday to maintain this facade

> of "sanity". But, like of all of us, he had his warts. And it is

> amusing to consider your imagry here.

>From what I've read about Allen, seems like he was a pain in the ass a lot of

the time. We all have a lot of flaws. Doesn't diminish the body

of work.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:48:25 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: buddhist hangover

Head hurts from the Black Cat

The stamp on my hand made a blur on my face.

I slept in fetal liquid with my hand against my cheek

and dreamt of

Sri Lanka and the fat monks

with greasy hands from too much food-worship.

It's against the rules to even touch a woman

(the Curse! the Curse!)

Especially when sitting on the bus.

When the flag flaps your own death at half-mast

you'll feel the breeze of gratitude.

These and other words Mike told me last night.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:07:44 -0400

Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

Comments: To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

In-Reply-To: <970620110638_1788367908@emout20.mail.aol.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

>Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

>Drown yourself in the stream;

>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

>Life is but a scream.

Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:13:32 -0400

Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject: Hunter

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

"No matter what, today is the end of an era. No more fair play. From

now on it is dirty pool and judo in the clinches. The savage

nuts have

shattered the great myth of American decency. They can count me in

-- I feel ready for a dirty game."

-- Gonzo journalist HUNTER S. THOMPSON, n a newly published

letter he wrote to friend and author William Kennedy on Nov. 22,

1963, the day President Kennedy was assassinated.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 11:26:53 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sara Feustle wrote:

> At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

> >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

> >Drown yourself in the stream;

> >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

> >Life is but a scream.

> >

> Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

perhaps a Beatlist group

skinnydip

in the sewagey stream will open some sinuses.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:49:34 -0700

Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

Comments: To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

>Drown yourself in the stream;

>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

>Life is but a scream.

Don't say things like that.

We love you.

It scares me to hear things like this.

Take care,

Tim

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 10:26:02 +0000

Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sara Feustle wrote:

> At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

> >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

> >Drown yourself in the stream;

> >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

> >Life is but a scream.

> >

> Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

Geez! whatever happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"

Barb

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:12:56 +0100

Reply-To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

In-Reply-To: <33AA5ABA.39C7@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:

> Sara Feustle wrote:

> >

> > At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

> > >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

> > >Drown yourself in the stream;

> > >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

> > >Life is but a scream.

> > >

> >

> > Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

> Geez! whatever happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"

> Barb

...still there, still there, but the fish are now a strange &

disconcerting shape, with many more eyes that all look back at you all at

once...

-- Olly R.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:36:45 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

Comments: To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Olly Ruff wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:

> > Sara Feustle wrote:

> > >

> > > At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

> > > >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

> > > >Drown yourself in the stream;

> > > >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

> > > >Life is but a scream.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

> >

> > Geez! whatever happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"

> > Barb

> >

> ...still there, still there, but the fish are now a strange &

> disconcerting shape, with many more eyes that all look back at you all at

> once...

> -- Olly R.

Don't cross the River if you can't swim the tide,

Don't try denying living on the other side,

AMERICA

If there is a god, it is the river, cause it is the only thing that is

in the mountains, going around the bend and at the sea at the same time.

DYLAN

I am a child in these hills, looking for water, looking for life.

Jackson Browne

See, when the electrcity (light) hit the saline solution (sea) we were

created by the hand of god. It was not in one 24 hour day, but it was

in one day. And what was used to make us, why the ashes and dust to

which we return. And the same chemicals and elements as you find in the

soil, the sea, the air. We are only discreet forms of energy split off

from our memory of the greater whole.

You don't believe you're just a living blob.

Guess Who

That we have forgotten and so we can not truly give love.

Under the City laid a heart made of ground but the humans could give no

love!

America

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:00:18 -0400

Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

In-Reply-To: <33AAAF4C.21F7@midusa.net>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:26 AM 6/20/97 -0500, RACE --- wrote:

>Sara Feustle wrote:

>> At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

>> >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

>> >Drown yourself in the stream;

>> >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

>> >Life is but a scream.

>> >

>> Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

>perhaps a Beatlist group

>skinnydip

>in the sewagey stream will open some sinuses.

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

Hey, RACE, damn good idea!!! I thought you were leaving us for a

while.....change your mind? I hope so! --Sara

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:02:17 -0400

Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

Comments: To: or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK

In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.970620191059.11573A-100000@indigo.csi.cam.a c.uk>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:12 PM 6/20/97 +0100, Olly Ruff wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:

>> Sara Feustle wrote:

>> >

>> > At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

>> > >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

>> > >Drown yourself in the stream;

>> > >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

>> > >Life is but a scream.

>> > >

>> >

>> > Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

>> Geez! whatever happened to "Life is but the stream I go a-fishin' in?"

>> Barb

> ...still there, still there, but the fish are now a strange &

>disconcerting shape, with many more eyes that all look back at you all at

>once...

> -- Olly R.

EXACTLY!!! --Sara *smile*

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:01:47 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sara Feustle wrote:

> At 11:26 AM 6/20/97 -0500, RACE --- wrote:

> >Sara Feustle wrote:

> >>

> >> At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

> >> >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

> >> >Drown yourself in the stream;

> >> >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

> >> >Life is but a scream.

> >> >

> >>

> >> Damn straight. Life is but a polluted stream of sewage. --Sara

> >

> >perhaps a Beatlist group

> >skinnydip

> >in the sewagey stream will open some sinuses.

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> >

> Hey, RACE, damn good idea!!! I thought you were leaving us for a

> while.....change your mind? I hope so! --Sara

Couldn't leave before the group skinny and all that jazz. . . .

i've left almost the other lists

but

this one

is under my skins

like a Venitian blind

duck hunting poet

that comes across

a band of dippers in the skinny

and shoots just over their

heads

kicks

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:33:00 -0700

Reply-To: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: rerererererere:rerererereeeeeeeer

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>

James M.

_______________________________________________

____________________________

__________________________

________

. . .

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:58:05 +0000

Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Subject: Jazz

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In response to:

> Yeah, that's too bad that Ferlinghetti tried a lot of things that didn't

> work. It was kind of a fad reading to jazz. More difficult than one thinks.

> The best I've heard is Kerouac on the Steve Allen show (who was he with; I

> can hear some of the poetry, but can't recall the musician's name.) The other

> poet I thought had a good jazz ear was Kenneth Patchen.

> Paul Bley lives here in Cherry Valley. We've thought about working together.

> I arranged for him to do a gig with Burroughs years ago. We could probably

> pull it off, but his compositions are privately progressive. It's something,

> if it clicks it's great, but most poets can't tell when it clicks.

> Charles Plymell

I believe Kerouac read with Zoot Sims and Al Cohn (saxophones). BTW,

does anybody know if 'Mexico City Blues' has ever been recorded. It is

not the easiest text, and hearing it for its rhythm would help

tremendously.

The catch with any group effort, in any field (literary, musical,

sports, etc), is to have the members dig each other before entering into

the project = more discipline, commitment.

Joseph Neudorfer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:07:55 -0600

Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Jazz

In-Reply-To: <33AA9A7D.24D4@discovland.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> I believe Kerouac read with Zoot Sims and Al Cohn (saxophones). BTW,

> does anybody know if 'Mexico City Blues' has ever been recorded. It is

> not the easiest text, and hearing it for its rhythm would help

> tremendously.

> The catch with any group effort, in any field (literary, musical,

> sports, etc), is to have the members dig each other before entering into

> the project = more discipline, commitment.

> Joseph Neudorfer

joe;

allen ginsberg recorded "mexco city blues" last year (or the yr before)

and i should be pretty easily available, from waterrow books, if not

elsewhere. (its good too - all the verses, & allen's voice.mmm.)

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:55:31 -0400

Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: More Beat films...

Comments: To: brooklyn@netcom.com

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Levi--

Here's another two Beat-made movies for your Beat film page. Never heard of

either, but they sound like they're worth serious investigation.

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:26:39 +0000

From: earwickr@sirius.com

To: Matt Colonnese <matthew.colonnese@yale.edu>

Cc: droneon@ucsd.edu

Subject: Re: oops and drone movie ?

>The drone film thread reminded me of a question: what is the name

>of very circular, repetive short film with voices saying

>"hello...yes...yes...hello" over and over, with constantly repeating

>picutres of burroughs (I think) and FBI agents ect... ?

Are you thinking of "The Cut-Ups"? It was an experiment in using

Byron Gysin's cut up techniques in film. It has footage of Burroughs

and someone else having a short conversation which is snipped and

rearranged ad nauseum. There is also another film by the same

filmmaker called "Towers Open Fire" that includes Burroughs and a

bunch of Beat writers as some sort of government committee. Most of

it's dialogue is from the first 50 pages of NOVA EXPRESS.

-Kelly

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:12:20 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: does anyone here speak french?

mail-order brides and popcorn newspapers

have me in a funk

drunk as a skunk

God forgive me for writing poetry

that rhymes!

'Mepris Felin'

Quand la lune est pleine

et mon coeur est gros

je penses a toi et tu me caresses

avec plus de tendresse

que ton chat.

Mais la lune n'est pleine

que rarement.

Et ton chat m'epie avec ses yeux jaunatres, pleins

de haine.

Il est clair a qui tu appartiens.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 18:47:17 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: pome 'bout poets, first draft

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Friday the 13th, Plattsberg, NY

Hava Java Poetry Reading

I sit, surrounded by men

gentle men

poet men

giving names to the unnameable

and voice to the unspeakable,

opening themselves up,

using words as scapels.

Transcendental alchemy

changing blood to ink-

ink filling voids with words.

I sit, suddenly again the child i never was.

How many years now lost?

how many fractured fine lines

hold my selves

precariously,

together?

(stifled all these years,

fearing words would crack me open

only to find an empty shell)

tonight i sit with these gentle men

whose poems bank the protective fire

which holds us in its ring

and the universe cracks open

inside my soul:

it isn't just me inside this ring

it isn't just me inside this ring,

this ring of fire and blood.

the grey smoke of the fire ring

gives birth

to metaphors stark

and shark naked facts,

as my facts

my metaphors

my grey smoke

rises and merges

with all.

the poems alchemy

begins its work,

changing blood to ink.

Suddenly,

a girl of seven,

feet dangling off the floor,

appears in my chair.

Me?

Not me?

oh! me AND me,

all dressed up and no place to grow.

that is,

until tonight.

right now i'm only seven

and awake long past my bed time

staying up late with the little boys

in men's pockets of poems.

we speak

of hateful mothers

of hurtful fathers

and winnie the pooh.

no bitterness remains.

in this charmed circle

this ring of fire

pain exchanged transmutes itself

in this charmed circle,

this ring of fire,

the alchemy of blood and pain:

souls bared,

souls shared.

it's bedtime now.

would you tuck me in now,

daddy?

- daddy isn't here.

would you be my fathers,

if only for tonight?

mc 6/20/97

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:13:46 -0400

Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

>Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

>Drown yourself in the stream;

>MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

>Life is but a scream.

RELAX!

Greg Elwell elwellg@voicenet.com

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:38:52 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Who lasts?

In a message dated 97-06-20 03:02:17 EDT, you write:

<< You mentioned, "I am awed by Plath, Sexton,

Rich, Bishop, Levertov, Walker...Women with strong voices, writing on

issues that concern not only women, but humanity." What did these women

say that inspired you in a way that Ginsberg does not? >>

I have the feeling that Ginsberg will outlast any of these writers you

mentioned.

Pam Plymell

If you're qualifying poetry for the masses Rod McKuen touched a hell of a lot

of people too. Lyn Lifshin also touches a lot of people. Time does funny

things to literature.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:01:44 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: popularity

MIME-Version: 1.0

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One of the native sons of our great state is mr Coogler. Every year a

local org gives out the Coogler to the worst writing. He was very

popular. And Snoopy uses his most famous line:

It was a dark and stormy night.

Popular as can be

wanna be like me

coogler is the name

snoopy lines is my game!

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:05:39 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: sychronicity

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Well, I made the post, I went to some more email, I read about a PC

World article on hand held calculators, and when I surfed there what did

I find, but another Coogler. Man, this is

scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!

http://www.pcworld.com/annex/columns/lasky/jun_97/lasky061097.html?SRC=nswatch

How to Choose a Pocket PC

Without Really Trying

It was a dark and stormy night (no,

really). Three of us

sat around the campfire. As the flames

flickered eerie

shadows over our faces, my friends argued

about the

ethics of spam e-mail--not exactly the

bonding campfire

chat I was expecting from a weekend of

camping, hiking,

and river rafting. Ironic,

Isn't ironic, just a little?

LOL at the universe, I am

Yours very truly,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:14:26 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady; Drugs

It's important to note that McCafferty was on watch when his men got

poisoned. Also his drug war at the border has our army shooting our citizens

again. If anyone is interested in this fool business of the drug wars taking

over the propaganda since the Cold War and the drug cartels fueling our stock

market with a nod to old capitalistic enterprise, then one should read my

personal history of Reefer Madness at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:18:03 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: does anyone here speak french?

Maya:

The yellowish eyes of his cat full of hate watch you constantly.

Pam Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:21:59 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Jazz

I was going to say Zoot Sims. I had the tape of it for a long while. Perfect

timing. I remember a line from about the carpenter and his wainscoting. It's

easy to see how a jazz musician could pick up on the sound of the word

Kerouac and build a whole number around it.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:25:47 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah-blah-blah blahblahblah blahblah....

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> > >>

> > >> At 11:06 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

> > >> >Blow, blow, blow your brains out,

> > >> >Drown yourself in the stream;

> > >> >MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee MaryLee,

> > >> >Life is but a scream.

> > >> >

> > >>

This would work wonderfully with the howling and screaming slide guitar

Roy Rodgers is doing --

Or a little Friday night scatology

Blow, Blow blow your beaux

Marylee, Marylee, Marylee

Mary Lou, Marylou

Where the hell are you

"We all need someone to cream on"

> like a Venitian blind

> duck hunting poet

> that comes across

> a band of dippers in the skinny

> and shoots just over their

> heads

> 4

> kicks

>david rheasa

salina cans are us

All his duck definitely in a row.

Zen

arching

12 gauge

BLAST!

J Stauffer

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:18:33 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: Cassady; Drugs

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> It's important to note that McCafferty was on watch when his men got

> poisoned. Also his drug war at the border has our army shooting our

> citizens

> again. If anyone is interested in this fool business of the drug wars

> taking

> over the propaganda since the Cold War and the drug cartels fueling

> our stock

> market with a nod to old capitalistic enterprise, then one should read

> my

> personal history of Reefer Madness at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

> Charles Plymell

Charles a damn good point. Drug cartels, dealers and the like are true

capitalist in the spirit of Burroughs, Getty, Vanderbilt, Kennedy (ran a

little rum back in prohibition, good thing there was no drug war then

eh?), Cabot, Lodge, etc etc etc. So, why are they not welcomed into

society like others who raped us with a fountain pen. Very curious

indeed. What hypocrites and we who know the truth are the worst of the

hypocrites.

Legalize drugs, tax them, do away with income and property taxes, quit

fighting evolution.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:39:13 -0400

Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: does anyone here speak french?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bien sur Maya...au moin si vous n'etes pas derange par un accent de Brooklyn

- Park Slope en fait, mais je suis a Montreal depuis longtemps. J'ai vu que

vous etiez une "souterranien" de Brooklyn il y a plusiers semaines, et j'ai

pense a dites hello; maintenant j'ai un occasion parfait!

Le poesie est a vous avec tous le francais? Ecrivez-vous en francais puis

vous faites le traduction ou quoi? Il n'est rien plus ronde que "la

lune"...beacoup plus sensuel que "moon".

Antoine, mais pas francais ou quebecois...c'etait pour avoir "Anthony, mais

eviter "Tony Maloney!" ....excusez les fautes avec les

accents....ils n'existent pas avec Eudora.

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:52:43 -0400

Reply-To: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Henry Miller-personal archives for sale.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

If anyone is interested Pacific Book Auction Galleries is selling Henry

Miller's personal archives including first draft typescript- Tropic of

Capricorn estimate

$60,000.00 /$90,000.00. Some amazing material. This is only Part 1 of the

sale. The site to view the catalog is:

http://www.nbn.com/pba/current.html

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:57:29 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: on this living thing

MIME-Version: 1.0

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It is interesting that David hooked up with a rock. As I recall, Billy

was a mountain and Ethel was a tree growing out of his shoulder. Then

Robert said, our goal in life is "to be a rock and not to roll." My 8

year old daughter will not allow us to shop at Home Depot because she

can still hear the trees they cut down crying. I don't go to nearby

strip shopping center for the same.

Trees know when they die, so do sad eyed cows. Everything is alive,

everything is conscious. Do not delude yourself. As Jackson Browne

said, "you're here as a guest, better make your self at home, while

you're waiting for the rest." What this means is that we are the

caretakers for this world and we are responsible for every grain of

sand. And, one day we will be held accountable for our actions and our

inactions. I am only preaching to my self, I hope that I am listening.

That rock is alive, and so is the web. Ask Thomas Wolfe.

Peace,

Long live Rock, be it dead or alive. Pete Townshend.

Peace, we don't have enought anyway.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:06:43 -0500

Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

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Trying to remember lastnight's dreams is like throwing rocks at an old dog

to make him feel shame and repent.

--Dream of sleeping on a flat surface $ only waking up to type poems and

send them to New Yorker. I am their poetry guy, for issues they publish

nothing but me. I am driving Matthew away from farm, but the scene is

desert hills and we see an elk running with antlers on both front and back.

Matthew maskes a comment about the trees being gone from the desert and we

shed a tear for them.--

Does anyone know of the poet Bob Holman or has anyone heard him read the

poem "Rock and Roll Mythology"? I laugh like hell whenever i think about

that. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. I hope Bob

Holman's not on this mailing list.

-leo jilk

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:24:07 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: The other day

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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The other day, I got stung by a hornet. The wound was very angry.

Later, I dreamed I was actually bitten by a snake.

It really didn't bother me, though somehow, I think it should.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:37:01 -0500

Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Subject: more dreams

In-Reply-To: <33AB4956.72A69FD1@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

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I dreamed two nights ago i was chasing my ex-girlfriend, just chasing her

and chasing her. i think she was on rollerblades. god that was a scary

dream. i think she disappeared into her house toward the end.

-leo

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:43:25 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes

MIME-Version: 1.0

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A little early Lou Reed for those who have forgotten or never new . . .

Pale Blue Eyes

Sometimes I feel so happy

Sometimes feel so sad

Sometimes feel happy

But mostly you just make me mad

Baby you just make me mad

Linger on

your pale blue eyes

Linger on

your pale blue eyes

Thought of you as my mountaintop

Thought of you as my peak

Ihought of you as everything

I've had but couldn't keep

Linger on your pale blue eyes

If I could make the world as pure

and strange as what I see

I'd put you in the mirror

I put in front of me

I put in front of me.

Linger on your pale blue eyes

Skip a life completely

Stuff it in a cup

She said money is like us in time

It lies but can't stand up

Count for you is up.

Linger on

your pale blue eyes

Linger on

your pale blue

It was good what we did yesterday

And I'd do it once again

The fact that you are married

Only proves you're my best friend

But it's truely, truely a sin

Linger on

Your pale blue eyes.

Linger on

Your pale blue eyes.

from "The Velvet Underground" 1968

third albut

Such a wonderful mixture of wonderful lines and some pretty shakey ones

and strange cynical naivete. Sometimes wonderfully musical and

sometimes woeful. God Bless the Velvets.

"And the ladies rolled their eyes."

That rock n roll station

"And it was all right"

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:37:36 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: more dreams and even more

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Sinverg=FCenza wrote:

>=20

> I dreamed two nights ago i was chasing my ex-girlfriend, just chasing h=

> and chasing her. i think she was on rollerblades. god that was a scary

> dream. i think she disappeared into her house toward the end.

>=20

> -leo

just woke from a dream with me and a friend - stine - and burroughs (he

changed ages at will) vacuuming a Pizza Hut up after a food fight or

something (quite a mess we hadn't made) but we were really grinning

cleaning it up cuz we didn't have to pay for our meal that way. we

tended to fight over who got to run over the sweeper. whoever made the

best line insulting the owner without him knowing he was insulted got to

run the vacuum while the other two picked up here and there and

continued to insult the owners. the owners weren't too bright!!! i

yelled at Stine once remember when we cleaned up this Pizza Hut when we

were kids. (but it was a different town, a different Pizza Hut, an

endless series of Pizza Huts that were the same yet different yet the

same -- and of course it made the cleaning job rather extensive as the

food fight or whatever it was seemed to have been going on

simultaneously in all these dimensions.) i remember calling the owner a

'shit' burroughs turned to me - his head upside down - turned under his

shoulder so i would be only one to see - and grinned really strong. i

woke up.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 00:48:08 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: on this living thing

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> It is interesting that David hooked up with a rock. As I recall, Billy

> was a mountain and Ethel was a tree growing out of his shoulder. Then

> Robert said, our goal in life is "to be a rock and not to roll." My 8

> year old daughter will not allow us to shop at Home Depot because she

> can still hear the trees they cut down crying. I don't go to nearby

> strip shopping center for the same.

> Trees know when they die, so do sad eyed cows. Everything is alive,

> everything is conscious. Do not delude yourself. As Jackson Browne

> said, "you're here as a guest, better make your self at home, while

> you're waiting for the rest." What this means is that we are the

> caretakers for this world and we are responsible for every grain of

> sand. And, one day we will be held accountable for our actions and our

> inactions. I am only preaching to my self, I hope that I am listening.

> That rock is alive, and so is the web. Ask Thomas Wolfe.

> Peace,

> Long live Rock, be it dead or alive. Pete Townshend.

> Peace, we don't have enought anyway.

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

Or perhaps we all aren't as damn animated as we think.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:38:34 -0400

Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Look East Young Man

I'm not sure why, but I'm driving east this week, from California, starting

in San Francisco, from Vesuvios with a beer in my hand.

Then on to the desert, to wake up with the sun hitting your eyes through the

windshield, which kind of lleaves a warm sweat coating your body. Don't know

what else, other then a stop in Narleens (New Orleans), and up to New York.

And then do it all again in July. This will not be exactly a beat adventure,

but it should be an adventure.

I had just driven to California from New York this past April, with the idea

of moving to Portland Oregon. Haven't made it up there yet. Maybe when I come

back.

Is driving in a Isuzu Trooper with a cooler full of peanutbutter sandwiches

in the back an experience that is worthy of being worthy?

later, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:45:54 GMT

Reply-To: "C. Paquette" <cp@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "C. Paquette" <cp@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Look East Young Man

In-Reply-To: <970621033833_-193616143@emout03.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Attila:

Anything involving travel AND peanut butter is *automatically* "worthy of=

being

worthy".

Chris

On Sat, 21 Jun 1997 03:38:34 -0400, you wrote:

>I'm not sure why, but I'm driving east this week, from California, =

starting

>in San Francisco, from Vesuvios with a beer in my hand.

>Then on to the desert, to wake up with the sun hitting your eyes through=

the

>windshield, which kind of lleaves a warm sweat coating your body. Don't=

know

>what else, other then a stop in Narleens (New Orleans), and up to New =

York.

>And then do it all again in July. This will not be exactly a beat =

adventure,

>but it should be an adventure.

>I had just driven to California from New York this past April, with the =

idea

>of moving to Portland Oregon. Haven't made it up there yet. Maybe when I=

come

>back.

>Is driving in a Isuzu Trooper with a cooler full of peanutbutter =

sandwiches

>in the back an experience that is worthy of being worthy?

>later, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 06:57:48 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes

In-Reply-To: <33AB69FD.10DA@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>A little early Lou Reed for those who have forgotten or never new . . .

>Pale Blue Eyes

_________

brought back about a zillion memories for me james.

and also brought to mind the later day lou reed

"stick a fork in it turn it over its done"

(from memory only so if misquoted, just take the message)

but did anyone ever think nico did justice to the velvets?

now there's a question for ya.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 07:14:36 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: David

In-Reply-To: <33AA0692.2976@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

dave wrote:

>i aint no poet

> my italian cousin Rinaldo is a poet

> i am Superman

"......and i can do anything......." or is it ...."and i know what's

happening"

which of course includes being a poet.

and yes, dear rinaldo is a poet

and all lives can be lived as poetry

and i still dont know what i wanta be when i grow up!

=:D

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:27:59 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Zabriskie Point revised (Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat))

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

DEAR friends,

the needed to get off, Michelangelo Antonioni director,

filmed "Zabriskie Point" in 1970 as an itinerary of

freedom ("Easy Ryder" was out before circa same period), &

Michelangelo Antonioni first did consciousness Pink Floyd,

important music.

the scene of explosion in ZP was commented by the

Pink Floyd's song "Careful with that Axe, Eugene", then

Pink Floyd goes in another further movies in years to come,

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:10:05 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: first draft of something.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

first thing : I was thrown out of the Spread Eagle earlier today for

drinking alone & for looking miserable. A huge bearded guy who looked like

God said something kind but still fairly choice about not depressing the

other customers. He asked me to move and I left, compromise.

This June is bad ; it's cold but still stays daylight for too long so that

you can see everything when you don't want to see anything at all.

There are stones in the yellow grass & it is also surrounded by stones -

in the light rain Mike is lying in the yellow grass on his back - I walk

over to him to steal one of his beers - Mike is from Singapore & wants to

know if I'm a Taoist because I'm wearing a yinyang around my neck. I tell

him I don't have the discipline. There is nobody else in sight.

I am standing in the street & a woman who I don't know points out to me

that I'm barefoot. I can see myself on a screen telling her that I can't

be bothered. Traffic is.

I am nothing. When I hit my fists against walls - any walls - I know

something is wrong - the first few times I thought it was because there

was no echo - then I realised it was because there was no sound there in

the first place so nowhere for an echo to come from ; fifth thing.

These are transparencies, they are pages from a flickbook, my right hand

is a frame from a cartoon, I am badly drawn.

Piece the pages back to back to gether - doesn't matter how you thread one

to the other - looser, tighter, steinarbeiter -

The order makes no difference - just run thru the pages - pick the frames

you like the best and watch them all at once in five gorgeous seconds.

"Passive" is a nice word. My self says it over & over to myself : passive

passive passive.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:36:16 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> >A little early Lou Reed for those who have forgotten or never new . . .

> >

> >Pale Blue Eyes

> _________

> brought back about a zillion memories for me james.

> and also brought to mind the later day lou reed

> "stick a fork in it turn it over its done"

> (from memory only so if misquoted, just take the message)

> but did anyone ever think nico did justice to the velvets?

> now there's a question for ya.

> mc

i mustaf listened to "What's Good?" ten times. can't beat that seeing

eye chocolate line. and the cancer in April line still i find

haunting. but what are you gonna do fake being deaf mute like Chief in

Cuckoo's Nest - even he told in the end. killed the trees. and silence

could just as easily moved cancer up to March or even February so let's

hear more Lou Reed as we drink our mayonaisse soda's at Tom's Diner or

the College Inn.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:47:56 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: adios.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Well, it's time for me to unsubscribe, basically, since I'm about to lose

computer access for the next few months, and so I thought I'd send in

some kind of goodbye post (as opposed to the "unsubscribe Beat-L" posts

that periodically materialise) - it's been fascinating & lovely reading

all of your stuff, good luck, take care. One other thing : I know the

continental US is a big place, but if I get it together to make the

roadtrip I'm planning & I see anyone who looks anything like any of you,

rest assured I'll flag you down. "Men paint houses, drive cars, but they

are mad : men sit in barbers' chairs, buy hats." - bukowski. Well,

whatever. Have a good summer, everyone.

love,

Olly Ruff.

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:15:43 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: boy is my face red now.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

i think i got the new rules of distribution all f*cked up agin.

private post sent to list

list post sent to etherlands

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:32:06 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: summer solstice

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Anybody out there doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer

solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:36:26 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: summer solstice

MIME-Version: 1.0

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Anybody out there doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer

> solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

i spent the night at Denny's alternatively reading random pages from

literary outlaw, education, yage, and lunch and scribbling notes about

early lsd use and starting to thing about a long long long tale or

perhaps tail or most probably both!!!

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:58:48 -0700

Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject: (no subject)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Olly Ruff wrote:

- it's been fascinating & lovely reading

> all of your stuff, good luck, take care.

You said it. I mean it.

One other thing : I know the

> continental US is a big place, but if I get it together to make the

> roadtrip I'm planning

Planning just doesn't fit my view of you that I see, but then I am

looking like at a painting on a museum wall loaded with echoes loud and

clear

& I see anyone who looks anything like any of you,

> rest assured I'll flag you down. "Men paint houses, drive cars, but they

> are mad : men sit in barbers' chairs, buy hats." - bukowski.

At least not all of them buy shoes. I will be looking down the barstools

for bare feet.

Well,

> whatever. Have a good summer, everyone.

> love,

> Olly Ruff.

Yass, yass, yass, everyone lets, you said it

_______________________________________________________________________________

> "Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

> considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

> Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_________________________________________________________

> or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

> skink@imrryr.org

> _________________________________________________________________________>

__He couldn't because he looked to the past, did all he could with the tools of

the age of reason, he was *not* ahead of his time.....

Leon__________________________

> .-

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:17:58 -0400

Reply-To: DawnDR@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: popularity

Just to be annoying, I have to tell R. Bentz Kirby that the line "It was a

dark and stormy night" -- appropriated by Snoopy and Mr. Coogler --- actually

comes from a horrendously bad novel written by British author Edward

Bulwer-Lytton ---- I believe it is ZANONI (1842). Bulwer--Lytton -- a

politician (Member of Parliament) thought that he was a writer --- and tried

his hand at several tales containing elements of the supernatural.

Dawn Sova

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 09:37:48 +0000

Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>

Subject: Re: summer solstice

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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RACE --- wrote:

> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> >

> > Anybody out there doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer

> > solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!

> >

> > Peace,

> >

> > --

> > Bentz

> > bocelts@scsn.net

> >

> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> i spent the night at Denny's alternatively reading random pages from

> literary outlaw, education, yage, and lunch and scribbling notes about

> early lsd use and starting to thing about a long long long tale or

> perhaps tail or most probably both!!!

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

Celebrating the summer solstice? *grin* hmmm...Isn't this like Daisy in

the Great Gatsby, in all her ennui glory, suggesting that they do

something for the summer solstice...a party perhaps... *L* It just

reminded me of that.... Anyhow...it will be a loooooong day today

because of a tennis tournament and the 100+ degree weather....

Apparently I'm sacrificing my feet in honor of the occasion... Actually,

I did write a poem incorporating the idea.... (but blistering feet is

much more interesting than blistering rhetoric) Anyhow, enough of my

blithering.

Barb

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:42:49 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: summer solstice

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:

> RACE --- wrote:

> >

> > R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > >

> > > Anybody out there doing some interesting things to celebrate the summer

> > > solstice? Just wondering. I hope that Attila got milk!

> > >

> > > Peace,

> > >

> > > --

> > > Bentz

> > > bocelts@scsn.net

> > >

> > > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> >

> > i spent the night at Denny's alternatively reading random pages from

> > literary outlaw, education, yage, and lunch and scribbling notes about

> > early lsd use and starting to thing about a long long long tale or

> > perhaps tail or most probably both!!!

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

> Celebrating the summer solstice? *grin* hmmm...Isn't this like Daisy in

> the Great Gatsby, in all her ennui glory, suggesting that they do

> something for the summer solstice...a party perhaps... *L* It just

> reminded me of that.... Anyhow...it will be a loooooong day today

> because of a tennis tournament and the 100+ degree weather....

> Apparently I'm sacrificing my feet in honor of the occasion... Actually,

> I did write a poem incorporating the idea.... (but blistering feet is

> much more interesting than blistering rhetoric) Anyhow, enough of my

> blithering.

> Barb

i've been through all that other summer solstice crap and i thought this

ritual made a LOT more sense. but it is a matter of taste i suppose as

with any ritual celebration.

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:58:02 -0600

Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: Zabriskie Point revised (Re: Oz and Moon (non-Beat))

Comments: To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970621132759.00bdee80@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

soundtrack for zabriski point also by the grateful dead's own prophet mr.

jerome j. garcia. in case ya'll didnt know.

derek

On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> DEAR friends,

> the needed to get off, Michelangelo Antonioni director,

> filmed "Zabriskie Point" in 1970 as an itinerary of

> freedom ("Easy Ryder" was out before circa same period), &

> Michelangelo Antonioni first did consciousness Pink Floyd,

> important music.

> the scene of explosion in ZP was commented by the

> Pink Floyd's song "Careful with that Axe, Eugene", then

> Pink Floyd goes in another further movies in years to come,

> ---

> yrs

> Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:59:52 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: [Fwd: Bad news coming, reach out, etc.]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I should have posted this here for those who care about Pop Music.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

--------------5878CCA3EF1A3205051AC7AB

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Message-ID: <33ABF504.B8EFE666@scsn.net>

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:36:36 -0400

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: hey joe <hey-joe@inslab.uky.edu>, jerry jeff <jjw-l@io.com>

Subject: Bad news coming, reach out, etc.

X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Well the bad news keeps on coming on this first day of summer,

1997:

Lawrence Payton of Four Tops

dies

June 20, 1997

Web posted at: 2:07 p.m. EDT (1807

GMT)

DETROIT (AP) --

Lawrence Payton, an original

member of legendary

Motown group the Four

Tops, died Friday. He was

59.

Payton died at his home in

nearby Southfield, said John

E. Anderson, manager of

McFall Brother's funeral

Home in Detroit, adding that

he didn't know the cause of death.

The Four Tops sold more than 50 million

records. They made their

chart debut in 1964, at No. 11, with "Baby I

Need Your Loving,"

following it up with such hits as "I Can't

Help Myself"; "Reach Out

(I'll be There)," which made it to No. 1 in

1966; and "I Can't Help

Myself (Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch)."

The Four Tops were together for more than

40 years.

In April, the Four Tops got a star on the

Hollywood Walk of

Fame.

"These are four of the

greatest people I have ever

known. They were major

pros even before they came

to Motown," Motown

founder Berry Gordy said

when the star was unveiled.

In 1995, the Michigan Travel

Bureau tapped the Tops for

an advertising campaign. Television viewers in

the Midwest were

treated to a revamped version of the tune,

"I Can't Help Myself."

Funeral arrangements were pending.

rights reserved. This

material may not be published, broadcast,

rewritten, or

redistributed.

My hat is over my heart and a tear is in my eye. The Four Tops were the

greatest man. I liked them better than the Temps. Everyone I know got

a chill when Levi screamed "Bernadette" after the pause.

Keeper of Your Castle was a song they did in the 70's when everyone else

was going me first:

Living down (Let me down ??not sure)

There's a lot of us been pushed around

Red Yellow Black White and Brown

With a tear of their own

Can't you see,

While you're picking on society

That the leaves of your family tree

Are calling you to come back home

You're the keeper of the castle

So be a father to your children

The provider of all their daily needs

Like a soverign lord protector

Be their destiny's director

They'll do well to follow where you lead

Oh, in your head,

You don't believe what the good book said

You're gonna strike out now instead

Cause the world's been unkind

But through thick and thin

Whatever shape your heart is in

You're gonna have next of kin

Better keep them in mind

You're the keeper of your castle

So be a good man to your lady

A creator of the sunshine in her day

Tend the garden that you seeded

Be a friend when a friend is needed

You won't have to look the other way.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

--------------5878CCA3EF1A3205051AC7AB--

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 14:01:44 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: popularity

Comments: To: DawnDR@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dawn B. Sova wrote:

> Just to be annoying, I have to tell R. Bentz Kirby that the line "It was a

> dark and stormy night" -- appropriated by Snoopy and Mr. Coogler --- actually

> comes from a horrendously bad novel written by British author Edward

> Bulwer-Lytton ---- I believe it is ZANONI (1842). Bulwer--Lytton -- a

> politician (Member of Parliament) thought that he was a writer --- and tried

> his hand at several tales containing elements of the supernatural.

> Dawn Sova

Ok, Dawn, that makes Coogler that much the worse, right? :-)

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 23:53:52 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cassady; Drugs

Even the Delanos of the Roosevelt built an empire of clipper ships selliing

opium to China. There is always a tactful denial of capitalistic empires and

the drug cartels are probably working both sides of the fence. The invention

of the adding machine was something a little different. It was clean money

coming from inventions and not necessarily causing dispair. I suspect the

drug cartels are using the international stock markets to clean money so fast

no one realizes it. The ubrupt rise of the stock market could only happen

with cartel money.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 23:57:57 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: on this living thing

The rock is cold on the outside and hot on the inside. I think that was Tao

or some chinese poet philosopher going off in my head, but I can understand

the physics of it. We could all preach to ourselves a little more.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:01:58 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: blah blah blah pale blue eyes

We published Lou Reed's poetry in the Coldspring Journal we were doing in the

70s.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:01:56 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Burroughs

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Oh, Charles, I did not mean to place the Burroughs company in with drug

cartels etc, just to say that it is capitalism. I mean the whole idea

of Microsoft is to keep announcing new programs etc to keep the

"upgrade" money coming in. Microsoft is the largest Junkie in the world

now and Bill Gates is mainlineing big time. (What was the name of that

group from Chicago that released a song called Main line or Main vein).

NCR had that idea long ago. IBM got left behind in the PC industry

because it just did not get the create your own cash cow idea.

There were the oil barons, the rail road barons, the steel barons, and

many others who used humans as fodder to create their empires, and we

all grin and look the other way.

But to say the adding machine was a drug is almost on point. Once it

was found that you could do with one human fodder and one Burroughs

machine what 10 or 15 humans could do, and with less errors, the service

and fast food industry was just a couple of steps away. And industry

was hooked, big time. They moved on to computers, robots, mainframes,

desktops, NC's, and god knows what else. Run up another computer dude.

Lay off some more humans. Well, anyway, I agree that the adding machine

brought to the market a legitimate machine that was not like the "extra"

money you get from avoiding the law, but it is all capitalism.

Folks we live in a world and the US, if you live here, that throws our

children in jail for smoking a hemp plant, but we subsidize, we the

taxpayers, subsidize growing tobacco to kill ourselves. What sickness

is this?

And on a side note, I am not so sure that tobacco withour the tobacco

company additives is that harmful. Maybe, but we will never know.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:29:14 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Attila

There is a line in my poem about Attila over the roof tops. The poem is

entitled Reba on the SF beach Reba arriba arriba, etc. It's in the Forever

Wider section of www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html

Was it you Attila? Or was that you on the corner?

Charley

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:48:05 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs

Yeah, I see your point. If its money the sytem will absord it at the top and

make the innocent fools pay. There's hardly a way out when the picture

enlarges to catch any lttle images that try to make light.

Oddly, I caught what was supposed to be a gaf of Dole during the campaign

that tobbaco is sometimes less harmful than milk. I think milk can be more

harmful to some people, and that tobacco can be less harmful to some. Tobacco

is bad for me, but I'm a fortunate type who can make myself sick on it and

then not touch it. I attribute that to my Indian blood. I don't know if

that's correct or not. But I do know that milk is very to some children.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 00:49:01 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs

Yeah, I see your point. If its money the sytem will absord it at the top and

make the innocent fools pay. There's hardly a way out when the picture

enlarges to catch any lttle images that try to make light.

Oddly, I caught what was supposed to be a gaf of Dole during the campaign

that tobbaco is sometimes less harmful than milk. I think milk can be more

harmful to some people, and that tobacco can be less harmful to some. Tobacco

is bad for me, but I'm a fortunate type who can make myself sick on it and

then not touch it. I attribute that to my Indian blood. I don't know if

that's correct or not. But I do know that milk is very harmful to some

children.

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 07:50:50 -0700

Reply-To: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Malcolm Lawrence <Malcolm@WOLFENET.COM>

Subject: Re: pale blue eyes

>Such a wonderful mixture of wonderful lines and some pretty shakey ones

Well let's give Lou a little more credit by fixing your mistake.

>She said money is like us in time

>It lies but can't stand up

>Count for you is up.

COUNT for you is up?

Ahem

DOWN for you is up.

As you were

Malcs

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 12:16:52 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: looking for sisyphus

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my mail keeps bouncing back with some 'local error' reading.

ray, get in touch, i have 2nd draft of poem to send you and want to plan an

outing to the island in august, if possible.

sorry all, for spam

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Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:59:55 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: forlorn rags of growing old

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Just finished reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.

"...and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides

the forlorn rags of growing old..." That line took me back to something

that Gerald Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that

"the knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]

wrote."

Isn't the knowledge that we are going to die the reason that any writer

writes? Isn't that the reason that we also grab onto life, every moment

of life? What maybe affected me more was "...all that road going, all

the people dreaming in the immensity of it,..." The way Kerouac said it,

it was a kinda a great thing but a sad thing. The way I see it, it's a

great thing and a positive thing, because it is individual dreams that

pull people out of dispair and what Kerouac came to see as the sadness of

America. Anyone out there got an feelings about this?

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Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 16:42:35 -0500

Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>

Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old

In-Reply-To: <33ADCA8B.55F7@together.net>

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Diane Carter wrote:

>Just finished reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.

>"...and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides

>the forlorn rags of growing old..." That line took me back to something

>that Gerald Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that

>"the knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]

>wrote."

>Isn't the knowledge that we are going to die the reason that any writer

>writes? Isn't that the reason that we also grab onto life, every moment

>of life? What maybe affected me more was "...all that road going, all

>the people dreaming in the immensity of it,..." The way Kerouac said it,

>it was a kinda a great thing but a sad thing. The way I see it, it's a

>great thing and a positive thing, because it is individual dreams that

>pull people out of dispair and what Kerouac came to see as the sadness of

>America. Anyone out there got an feelings about this?

>DC

yeah. the only reason we do anything is because we know we're going to die.

i do think Kerouac wrote and lived for this reason, and that is why his

book is so powerful. all those suits working everyday in the city were

already dead or chasing their own shadows (ginsberg's line) and Kerouac and

the beats proposed a new way to live. On the Road that simply says that

they were always going somewhere, not knowing where, but that was the way

to live, to just keep going until you can't go anymore. Kerouac gave this

idea more life and character than anyone else could in OTR.

-leo jilk

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Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:51:00 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

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From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: popularity

Reply to message from bocelts@SCSN.NET of Fri, 20 Jun

>local org gives out the Coogler to the worst writing. He was very

>popular. And Snoopy uses his most famous line:

>It was a dark and stormy night.

What child's sci-fi book also starts with this line??? :)

Diane.

Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

Diane M. Homza

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Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 17:23:01 -0500

Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old

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RACE --- wrote:

>=20

> Sinverg=FCenza wrote:

>=20

> > yeah. the only reason we do anything is because we know we're going t=

o die.

>=20

> ok now that 2 folks have said this

> i'm going to open my

> little soapbox up and stand on it

> like a preacher from the

> temple of the Harvest Moon

> and teach y'all a thing or two

> about chickens

> and eggs

> and why we do anything including writing

> it has much less to do