=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 07:59:48 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
>
>
> Diane Carter wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Mike & Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > > I reread Howl this afternoon...and I think not so much that it
is
>
> > > misunderstood as suffering from a very specialized and narrow
>
> > > audience. I read it and
thought.....period piece...I don't think it
>
> > > will transcend time... Usually people can empathsize and relate
to
>
> > > another's emotional trauma...but it is very difficult to connect
to
>
> > > Ginsberg in Howl. I do
have an appreciation for the poem...he does
>
> > > convey some stunning ideas and displays verbal dexterity and
wit...... I
>
> > > feel as if people who can relate, would really hoist this poem
as the
>
> > > icon of the the time and/ or experience...it would be ...the
emblem poem
>
> > > that it is.. But as a
reader, I'm an outsider, gawking and
>
> > > rubber-necking a tragedy I can only witness from afar and listen
to the
>
> > > howling without ever wanting to howl myself.
>
> > > Barb
>
> >
>
> > Barb,
>
> >
>
> > Howl, as well as the rest of the poetry of Ginsberg, will stand the
test
>
> > of time. You and I obviously
come from very different experiences.
When
>
> > I first discovered Howl, it literally saved my life. It was not until he
>
> > died and I read the hundreds of memorials posted on various web pages
>
> > that I saw in writing what I had known intellectually all along. That he
>
> > truly touched the souls of masses of people, many whom would not be
alive
>
> > today if his words had not given them the freedom and power to be
>
> > themselves. And beyond that,
to write of themselves. Not only do I
>
> > identify with Howl, although I wasn't born until the fifies, I knew
that
>
> > it marked the beginning of a time when poetry would no longer be the
same
>
> > again. It marked a time when
no longer would the same limits be placed
>
> > on thought or the poetry that came from that thought. In his incredible
>
> > body of work, of which Howl is just the cornerstone, Ginsberg gave us
a
>
> > new definition of how humanness, every little speck of humanness,
could
>
> > indeed be poetic. He also
spoke of America, an imperfect America, and
>
> > how it is necessary for poets to address the culture which is at
their
>
> > feet. But the big thing about
Ginsberg is that he was remained positive
>
> > in addressing the darkness of the mind and what he saw as the
darkness of
>
> > America. While he pointed the
the dusty, rotting imageless locomotives,
>
> > he also pointed to the sunflower of the soul.
>
> >
>
> > I cannot understand how you cannot relate to the emotional trauma of
>
> > Howl! How can you possibly
not want to howl yourself? Life is a
howl.
>
> > I would urge you to start to howl.
Find it inside of yourself.
>
> > The rhythm of Ginsberg's poetry is the rhythm of life in America
today.
>
> > When you say that "I think that Howl and many of his major
works...are
>
> > limited, and honestly will end up, not as the major voice of the 20th
c.,
>
> > but a voice of a period for a particular subsect of the
population," I
>
> > have to wonder how much of Ginsberg you have read. He was a major voice
>
> > in the twentieth century but he obviously did not take poetry in the
>
> > direction you want it to go.
>
> >
>
> > You are reading beat literature but you don't really see it as
enduring.
>
> > Only time will tell. I for
one think it will. But for that to happen
>
> > beat literature has to keep being published, being taught in schools
and
>
> > colleges all over this country equally, so that people continue to
read
>
> > it, and whole new generations of writers develop their own voices
from
>
> > the influences of the beats.
>
> >
>
> > I seriously want to know what path your line of thought takes in
terms of
>
> > twentieth century poetry. You
mentioned, "I am awed by Plath, Sexton,
>
> > Rich, Bishop, Levertov, Walker...Women with strong voices, writing on
>
> > issues that concern not only women, but humanity." What did these women
>
> > say that inspired you in a way that Ginsberg does not? The confessional
>
> > mode of writing is a uniquely twentieth century development but
although
>
> > Plath and Sexton got their concerns out in words, it did not, could
not,
>
> > save their own lives. I don't
think that their writing will stand the
>
> > test of time. Do you?
>
> > DC
>
>
>
> About the women standing the test of time...you or someone had asked
>
> what was the most significant development/work of the 20th C....I think
>
> that the voices as a whole is the most significant development...
>
> Perhaps as individuals they may not endure...but they spoke up and wrote
>
> from a perspective that had been long neglected. I see it as the most
>
> significant development...because I project that women will dominate
>
> literature in the 21st C.... at least in America.
>
>
>
> As for literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
>
> purpose. I have never read
literature, or chosen literature, on that
>
> basis. My life has not needed
saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
>
> one for the job if it were the case.
I'm actually not even concerned
>
> about literature as therapy. I am
much more concerned with the
>
> expression of ideas and how well
ideas conveyed through
>
> devices/technique. A good idea
should be expressed in a way that is
>
> beyond compare...perfectly suited... an astounding synthesis of sound
>
> and meaning .
>
>
>
> As for howling....no thank you. At
times I do feel the need to applaud
>
> and cheer... but howl, no. If I
don't like my life or situation, I do
>
> something to change it. And...we
are from different worlds....I've
>
> always been very lucky in many aspects. I've attended great schools,
>
> always had diverse interests...extremely active in dance and
>
> sports....and if I want to get high...I run in the desert or push
>
> physical endurance somehow. I do
not glamourize drug use nor condone it
>
> in any fashion. I honestly think
the beats were great
>
> experimenters...and some truly were on quests, but their lives are
>
> tragic as a whole. (and where many
thought they had attained
>
> enlightenment...or epiphanies...they were just spewing the frazzled
>
> synaptic mishaps of an overdose... It does NOT make for great art. When
>
> I read poetry where the poet is obviously wacked, I think "junk"
>
> ...not revolutionary, novel, genius driven art) Ok *grin*...everyone
>
> jump on me now.....
>
> Barb
>
patricia wrote
> I resist the flame, since you don't
need your life saved, you don't
>
appreciate the death and rebirth in beat literature that is so important
> to
me. I saw so many people living lifes
not of quiet desperation but
>
half lifes, zombies through careful little doses of being careful
>
"normal" and denial > I burned, I felt i would rather die than
live life
>
asleep.
> i don't dispise altered consciousness of the
many forms, the most
>
dangerous one being in love. I see a herd of women being goaded by
>
culture to wear buffant hairdos and i thought beat literature helped the
>
ladies let their curls run free like sunshine and summer. I don't know
>
about taking my own temperature during the altered states of being but
>
the reflections of light after helped illuminate the ideas that got me
> an
inch past provincial, and god knows here in kansas where eisenhower
>
didn't die and strange is a guy from arkansas, any concept that takes
>
you past "taters should be fried" helps fight hate and fear. Perhaps
the
>
most important aspect of altered conciousness is that we have a "choice
> or
even responsibility" of perspective, be it zen or dispair. We even
>
have the right. To experiment in words reflects the deepest experiment
>
that in how we think and view the world and in that way all good
>
literature affects me and changes me. but of course that is how i define
>
good literature. and for me it saves my life every so often. curled in
> my
soapbox like a cat, thinking that the great lie is the only sweet thing
about death is the smell.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:32:30 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Comments:
To: race@midusa.net
In a
message dated 97-06-23 05:34:25 EDT, you write:
<<
> >> "Lies! Lies! Lies! I lie,
you lie, we all lie!
> >> There is no us, there is no
world, there is no universe,
> >> there is no life, no death, no
nothing--all is meaningless,
> >> and this too is a lie--O damned
1959!" --Gregory Corso
> >>
> >> -leo jilk >>
this
message has far too many ">>>"s. Nevertheless, i was just
wondering if
anyone
had seen that amazing painting of greg Corso that was featured in the
'Beat
generation' exhibit that passed through
the Whitney about 1 year 1/2
ago?
And do you remember who it was by? Anybody?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:39:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time i committed suicide.
In a
message dated 97-06-23 07:30:25 EDT, you write:
<< At the end of the movie Harry convinces
Neal to drink with him. This is what Neal's step brother did in the
"great
sex letter" (The one that starts off
"To have seen a specter isn't
everything..) At the beginning of the movie Harry is as you described,
Neal's pool buddy.
>>
Sorry
but i couldn't help thinking it should be changed to "To have seen a
sphyncter
isn't everything" I'm sorry i know that's childish but i couldn't
help
it. My apologies to Allen Ginsberg or whoever might take this
personally.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:32:53 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Zabriskie Point revised
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970621105721.5506B-100000@srv1.freenet.calga
ry.ab.ca>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Derek
A. Beaulieu writes:
>soundtrack
for zabriski point also by the grateful dead's own prophet mr.
>jerome
j. garcia. in case ya'll didnt know.
>derek
&
when the policeman says what's yr name? Mark says "Karl Marx",
&
the policeman typewrites "Marx
Carlo", this scene remember me
"On
the Road" where Jack Kerouac describes "the dark mind that is
Carlo
Marx", i cant' think Michelangelo Antonioni haven't read the
Kerouac's
work... ( a quote & a tribute to JK dead a year before?)
btw who
is really Carlo Marx in "On The Road"? this question is now
keep in
my mind,
peace&happiness,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
* a beet is a beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:23:40 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Zabriskie Point revised
Comments:
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970623153253.00be5594@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
as to
the identity of poor carlo marx lost in the weeds:
well
our own allen ginsberg.
the
secrets out
there
gonna be trouble.
keep yr
trenchcoat on yr fedora down low
derek
On Mon,
23 Jun 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>
Derek A. Beaulieu writes:
>
>soundtrack for zabriski point also by the grateful dead's own prophet mr.
>
>jerome j. garcia. in case ya'll didnt know.
>
>derek
>
& when the policeman says what's yr name? Mark says "Karl Marx",
>
& the policeman typewrites "Marx Carlo", this scene remember me
>
"On the Road" where Jack Kerouac describes "the dark mind that
is
>
Carlo Marx", i cant' think Michelangelo Antonioni haven't read the
>
Kerouac's work... ( a quote & a tribute to JK dead a year before?)
>
>
btw who is really Carlo Marx in "On The Road"? this question is now
>
keep in my mind,
>
>
peace&happiness,
>
---
>
yrs
>
Rinaldo. * a beet is a beet *
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:27:16 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To:
<l03020908afd3cd92dfd5@[206.25.67.117]>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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mc
(& co)
aint
something to be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds & all.
first
thot best thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
captures
the image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
distance
the creation from the act of creation? distances the child from
the
orgasm (to use a strange metaphor.)?
derek
On Mon,
23 Jun 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>
This is a good issue for discussion. Spontaneous writing . . . there is
>
definately a value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
>
discipline of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
>
When the muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
>
else to do but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
>
language that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
>
then stream of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
>
________
>
this is exactly what i am finding out. as i can 'trip' w/o the chemicals,
>
due to having a somewhat cracked and multi-faceted mind and world view,
>
also as one who has tripped as well for the experience of opening the doors
> of
perception, i write down madly all that i thought all that has happened
>
all the memories,
>
first in prose
>
then in verse
>
again again again rehearse by pruning the garden and pulling the weeds out
> of
the cracks in the eternal sidewalk, etc
etc
>
also have found a wonderful editor on this list (who will remain nameless
> to
protect her from burial under poems, unless s/he decides to uncloak.)
> mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:29:42 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
In-Reply-To: <33AE7344.45F4@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
patricia wrote
> I resist the flame, since you don't
need your life saved, you don't
>
appreciate the death and rebirth in beat literature that is so important
> to
me. I saw so many people living lifes
not of quiet desperation but
>
half lifes, zombies through careful little doses of being careful
>
"normal" and denial > I burned, I felt i would rather die than
live life
>
asleep.
> i don't dispise altered consciousness of the
many forms, the most
>
dangerous one being in love. I see a herd of women being goaded by
>
culture to wear buffant hairdos and i thought beat literature helped the
>
ladies let their curls run free like sunshine and summer. I don't know
>
about taking my own temperature during the altered states of being but
>
the reflections of light after helped illuminate the ideas that got me
> an
inch past provincial, and god knows here in kansas where eisenhower
>
didn't die and strange is a guy from arkansas, any concept that takes
>
you past "taters should be fried" helps fight hate and fear. Perhaps
the
>
most important aspect of altered conciousness is that we have a "choice
> or
even responsibility" of perspective, be it zen or dispair. We even
>
have the right. To experiment in words reflects the deepest experiment
>
that in how we think and view the world and in that way all good
>
literature affects me and changes me. but of course that is how i define
>
good literature. and for me it saves my life every so often. curled in
> my
soapbox like a cat, thinking that the great lie is the only sweet thing
about death is the smell.
> p
_________
three
cheers for patricia. couldn't agree more. distubing the way sexton
and
plath wrote their suicide notes time and time again, trapped in
solopstic
universes, where only pain was reward.
so
different from the reaching out, the broadening of social awareness and
tenderness
evoked in AG's poems they are all about life and how to live it,
to all
of us at large. i studied plath, i studied saxton i read the
biographies
and all i could think of was how sad these women are and how 2
dimensional
both personality and writings. technically marvelous poetry, no
doubt
about technique. but so hermetically sealed in their gazing into own
navel
and snarling at world outside of them.
trauma
can make excellent poetry when broadened out to reach others in an
expansive
world view that allows poet to write to others and not just to
self or
lovers/husbands/shrinks..
as a
confessional poet who is always building bridges to get to other side
and
dance out the pain with friendship sharing and openess, i must say that
AG did
such writing so superbly. his pain is not just for himself, his pain
is for
all. i first 'saw' myself in HOWL. and i walk that line carefully
through
revisions of my work.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 08:31:53 +0000
Reply-To: wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike & Barbara Wirtz
<wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
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Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-06-21 06:46:57 EDT, you write:
>
>
<<
> Sara Feustle wrote:
> >
> > I myself am a whopping 21, and I am
soooooo pissed off about all the stuff
> > I missed for being born so late!!!!
Anybody else in the same predicament?
>
> I am 23 and yes I am pissed, thinking about
all that I missed. I'm also
> annoyed being born so early. Imagine what I
won't see in the future.
> Still I wouldn't like to see myself in the
mirror at the age of 200. I'd
> be reeeally ugly. So all things considered,
I'm happy.
>
> -daniel
>
> >>
> I
don't get it. I sed i was 22 before,
but i don't feel like i should have
>
been born earlier or later. I feel JUST
right. I guess knowing that i was a
>
gangsta chick in 1940's Chicago in my previous life helps. I didn't miss a
>
thing. It's all happening NOW as far as
i'm concerned. Sara---just think,
> in
a few years, you'll be saggy and wrinkly so enjoy yerself now, while you
>
can still get some!
Sounds
a bit like Miniver Cheevy:
Miniver
Cheevy, child of scorn,
Grew lean while he assailed the
seasons;
He wept
that he was ever born,
And he had reasons.
Miniver
loved the days of old
When swords were bright and steeds
were prancing:
The
visions of a warrior bold
Would set him dancing.
Miniver
sighted for what was not,
And dreamed, and rested from his
labors;
He
dreamed of Thebes and Camelot,
And Priam's neighbors.
Miniver
mourned the ripe renown
That made so many a name so fragrant;
He
mourned Romance, now on the town,
and Art, a vagrant.
Miniver
loved the Medici,
Albeit he had never seen one;
He
would have sinned incessantly
Could he have been one.
Miniver
cursed the commonplace
And eyed a khaki suit with loathing;
He
missed the medieval grace
Of iron clothing
Miniver
scorned the gold he sought,
But sore annoyed was he without it;
Miniver
thought, and thought, and thought,
And thought about it.
Miniver
Cheevy, born too late,
Scratched his head and kept on
thinking;
Miniver
coughed, and called it fate,
And kept on drinking.
from
Edwin Arlington Robinson......
Barb
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:37:56 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970623082432.29216A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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d:
first thought may be best thought, but to make the thought
understandable
to others and to craft a poem takes revision, if only a
second
draft. too many thoughts (good and otherwise) fill my first draft. i
then
need to listen to the voices, and then prune away the extraneous
flying
squirrels who shit out of my tree of knowledge. all this is done to
make
clearer and more universal the first thought. the end = first
thought+heightened
awareness and beauty of form of poem on page.
look
for example, as i know you have both, the difference made in editing
the
plattsburg pome from first to second drafts. first draft was first
thought;
second draft was to make those thoughts leap more clearly onto
page
into rhythm of childhood chants and more immediacy of the poet circle
and
less fumbling about in my head (the me/not me stanza).
just my
way of doing things. works for me,
it also
worked for JK who unlike the legend, reworked and edited his first
thoughts to elevation of art.
mc
>mc
(& co)
>aint
something to be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds & all.
>first
thot best thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
>captures
the image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
>distance
the creation from the act of creation? distances the child from
>the
orgasm (to use a strange metaphor.)?
>derek
>
>On
Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>>
>>
This is a good issue for discussion. Spontaneous writing . . . there is
>>
definately a value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
>>
discipline of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
>>
When the muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
>>
else to do but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
>>
language that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
>>
then stream of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
>>
________
>>
this is exactly what i am finding out. as i can 'trip' w/o the chemicals,
>>
due to having a somewhat cracked and multi-faceted mind and world view,
>>
also as one who has tripped as well for the experience of opening the doors
>>
of perception, i write down madly all that i thought all that has happened
>>
all the memories,
>>
first in prose
>>
then in verse
>>
again again again rehearse by pruning the garden and pulling the weeds out
>>
of the cracks in the eternal sidewalk,
etc etc
>>
also have found a wonderful editor on this list (who will remain nameless
>>
to protect her from burial under poems, unless s/he decides to uncloak.)
>>
mc
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:41:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: first thought and revision
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
btw,
insp. derek:
them
weeds in the sidewalk obscure the cracks in universe in which i slip
with
tiny pad .
some
weed, some do not
("some
cook some do not" ole ezra said this i believe somewhere in them cantos.
ok,
enuf
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:40:10 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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from
literary kicks webside (http://www.charmnet/~Brooklyn/LitKicks.html)
'Marriage'
by Gregory Corso
Thanks
to Gene R. Truex (gene.r.truex@dartmouth.edu) for typing this
wonderful
poem in.
Should
I get married? Should I be good?
Astound
the girl next door with my velvet suit and faustus hood?
Don't
take her to movies but to cemeteries
tell
all about werewolf bathtubs and forked clarinets
then
desire her and kiss her and all the preliminaries
and she
going just so far and I understanding why
not
getting angry saying You must feel! It's beautiful to feel!
Instead
take her in my arms lean against an old crooked tombstone
and woo
her the entire night the constellations in the sky-
When
she introduces me to her parents
back
straightened, hair finally combed, strangled by a tie,
should
I sit with my knees together on their 3rd degree sofa
and not
ask Where's the bathroom?
How
else to feel other than I am,
often
thinking Flash Gordon soap-
O how
terrible it must be for a young man
seated
before a family and the family thinking
We
never saw him before! He wants our Mary Lou!
After
tea and homemade cookies they ask What do you do for a living?
Should
I tell them? Would they like me then?
Say All
right get married, we're losing a daughter
but
we're gaining a son-
And
should I then ask Where's the bathroom?
O God,
and the wedding! All her family and her friends
and
only a handful of mine all scroungy and bearded
just
wait to get at the drinks and food-
And the
priest! he looking at me as if I masturbated
asking
me Do you take this woman for your lawful wedded wife?
And I
trembling what to say say Pie Glue!
I kiss
the bride all those corny men slapping me on the back
She's
all yours, boy! Ha-ha-ha!
And in
their eyes you could see some obscene honeymoon going on-
Then
all that absurd rice and clanky cans and shoes
Niagara
Falls! Hordes of us! Husbands! Wives! Flowers! Chocolates!
All
streaming into cozy hotels
All
going to do the same thing tonight
The
indifferent clerk he knowing what was going to happen
The
lobby zombies they knowing what
The
whistling elevator man he knowing
Everybody
knowing! I'd almost be inclined not to do anything!
Stay up
all night! Stare that hotel clerk in the eye!
Screaming:
I deny honeymoon! I deny honeymoon!
running
rampant into those almost climactic suites
yelling
Radio belly! Cat shovel!
O I'd
live in Niagara forever! in a dark cave beneath the Falls
I'd sit
there the Mad Honeymooner
devising
ways to break marriages, a scourge of bigamy
a saint
of divorce-
But I
should get married I should be good
How
nice it'd be to come home to her
and sit
by the fireplace and she in the kitchen
aproned
young and lovely wanting my baby
and so
happy about me she burns the roast beef
and
comes crying to me and I get up from my big papa chair
saying
Christmas teeth! Radiant brains! Apple deaf!
God
what a husband I'd make! Yes, I should get married!
So much
to do! Like sneaking into Mr Jones' house late at night
and
cover his golf clubs with 1920 Norwegian books
Like
hanging a picture of Rimbaud on the lawnmower
like
pasting Tannu Tuva postage stamps all over the picket fence
like
when Mrs Kindhead comes to collect for the Community Chest
grab
her and tell her There are unfavorable omens in the sky!
And
when the mayor comes to get my vote tell him
When
are you going to stop people killing whales!
And
when the milkman comes leave him a note in the bottle
Penguin
dust, bring me penguin dust, I want penguin dust-
Yes if
I should get married and it's Connecticut and snow
and she
gives birth to a child and I am sleepless, worn,
up for
nights, head bowed against a quiet window, the past behind me,
finding
myself in the most common of situations a trembling man
knowledged
with responsibility not twig-smear nor Roman coin soup-
O what
would that be like!
Surely
I'd give it for a nipple a rubber Tacitus
=46or a
rattle a bag of broken Bach records
Tack
Della Francesca all over its crib
Sew the
Greek alphabet on its bib
And
build for its playpen a roofless Parthenon
No, I
doubt I'd be that kind of father
Not
rural not snow no quiet window
but hot
smelly tight New York City
seven
flights up, roaches and rats in the walls
a fat
Reichian wife screeching over potatoes Get a job!
And
five nose running brats in love with Batman
And the
neighbors all toothless and dry haired
like
those hag masses of the 18th century
all
wanting to come in and watch TV
The
landlord wants his rent
Grocery
store Blue Cross Gas & Electric Knights of Columbus
impossible
to lie back and dream Telephone snow, ghost parking-
No! I
should not get married! I should never get married!
But-imagine
if I were married to a beautiful sophisticated woman
tall
and pale wearing an elegant black dress and long black gloves
holding
a cigarette holder in one hand and a highball in the other
and we
lived high up in a penthouse with a huge window
from
which we could see all of New York and even farther on clearer days
No,
can't imagine myself married to that pleasant prison dream-
O but
what about love? I forget love
not
that I am incapable of love
It's
just that I see love as odd as wearing shoes-
I never
wanted to marry a girl who was like my mother
And
Ingrid Bergman was always impossible
And
there's maybe a girl now but she's already married
And I
don't like men and-
But
there's got to be somebody!
Because
what if I'm 60 years old and not married,
all
alone in a furnished room with pee stains on my underwear
and
everybody else is married! All the universe married but me!
Ah, yet
well I know that were a woman possible as I am possible
then
marriage would be possible-
Like
SHE in her lonely alien gaud waiting her Egyptian lover
so i
wait-bereft of 2,000 years and the bath of life.
Literary
Kicks
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:01:21 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: i forgot the thread title -RACE,
response to spontaniety
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dave
you
pick yr nose hairs
i'll
prune my pomes.
no
difference.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:18:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
> patricia wrote
>
> I resist the flame, since
you don't need your life saved, you don't
>
> appreciate the death and rebirth in beat literature that is so important
>
> to me. I saw so many people living
lifes not of quiet desperation but
>
> half lifes, zombies through careful little doses of being careful
>
> "normal" and denial > I burned, I felt i would rather die
than live life
>
> asleep.
>
> i don't dispise altered
consciousness of the many forms, the most
>
> dangerous one being in love. I see a herd of women being goaded by
>
> culture to wear buffant hairdos and i thought beat literature helped the
>
> ladies let their curls run free like sunshine and summer. I don't know
>
> about taking my own temperature during the altered states of being but
>
> the reflections of light after helped illuminate the ideas that got me
>
> an inch past provincial, and god knows here in kansas where eisenhower
>
> didn't die and strange is a guy from arkansas, any concept that takes
>
> you past "taters should be fried" helps fight hate and fear.
Perhaps the
>
> most important aspect of altered conciousness is that we have a
"choice
>
> or even responsibility" of perspective, be it zen or dispair. We even
>
> have the right. To experiment in words reflects the deepest experiment
>
> that in how we think and view the world and in that way all good
>
> literature affects me and changes me. but of course that is how i define
>
> good literature. and for me it saves my life every so often. curled in
>
> my soapbox like a cat, thinking that the great lie is the only sweet thing
> about death is the smell.
>
> p
>
_________
>
three cheers for patricia. couldn't agree more. distubing the way sexton
>
and plath wrote their suicide notes time and time again, trapped in
>
solopstic universes, where only pain was reward.
> so
different from the reaching out, the broadening of social awareness and
>
tenderness evoked in AG's poems they are all about life and how to live it,
> to
all of us at large. i studied plath, i studied saxton i read the
>
biographies and all i could think of was how sad these women are and how 2
>
dimensional both personality and writings. technically marvelous poetry, no
>
doubt about technique. but so hermetically sealed in their gazing into own
>
navel and snarling at world outside of them.
>
trauma can make excellent poetry when broadened out to reach others in an
>
expansive world view that allows poet to write to others and not just to
>
self or lovers/husbands/shrinks..
> as
a confessional poet who is always building bridges to get to other side
>
and dance out the pain with friendship sharing and openess, i must say that
> AG
did such writing so superbly. his pain is not just for himself, his pain
> is
for all. i first 'saw' myself in HOWL. and i walk that line carefully
>
through revisions of my work.
> mc
my
ex-wife was a big Virginia Woolf fan. i
don't know if that is in the
same
women's lineage. She said I had to read
this - and the only time
she'd
said that before was with Farina's "Been Down So Long It Looks
Like Up
to Me" so i tried and i tried - something about a room bunch of
rants
about freedom to be i guess. hell the
whole universe is the room
as far
as i'm concerned. I didn't get it
really. one day i was in
special
collections at the University of Iowa and on a lark i looked up
Woolf. they had this book about VW (the original
bug) spending an
entire
day shopping for a pencil. then i got
it. the pencil book
should
be Woolf's most famous.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:22:22 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
btw, insp. derek:
>
them weeds in the sidewalk obscure the cracks in universe in which i slip
>
with tiny pad .
> some
weed, some do not
>
("some cook some do not" ole ezra said this i believe somewhere in
them
cantos.
>
ok, enuf
> mc
as an
old gardener said "watch which weeds you pull up!"
in the
same vein
step on
a crack - break your mother's back.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:44:04 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
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From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: question for david
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david
r:
is your comment about the "forest
of arden" aspect of the beat
hotel
related to the sexual connotation that AG and JK were always trying
to
convey to JC Holmes?
by the way, where is the beat
hotel? (sorry for the ignorance,
but
inquiring minds want to know) *smile*
Jenn
Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:37:28 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Marcel Proust questionnaire (Re: does
anyone here speak french?)
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Quel
est pour vous le comble de la mise're?
[]
Ou'
aimeriez-vous vivre?
[]
Votre
ide'al de bonheur terrestre?
[]
Pour
quelles fautes avez-vous le plus d'indulgence?
[]
Vos
he'ros de romans pre'fe'res?
[]
Votre
personnage historique pre'fe're'?
[]
Vos
he'roi:nes dans le vie re'elle?
[]
Vos
he'roi:nes dans la fiction?
[]
Votre
peintre favori?
[]
Votre
musicien pre'fe're'?
[]
Votre
qualite' pre'fe're'e chez l'homme?
[]
Votre
qualite' pre'fe're'e chez la femme?
[]
Votre
vertu pre'fe're'e?
[]
Votre
occupation pre'fe're'e?
[]
Qui
auriez-vous aime' e^tre?
[]
Le
trait principal de votre caracte're?
[]
Ce que
vouz appre'ciez le plus chez des amis?
[]
Votre
principal de'feaut?
[]
Votre
re^ve de bonheur?
[]
Quel
serait votre plus grand malheur?
[]
Ce que
vous voudriez e^tre?
[]
Le
couleur que vous pre'fe'rez?
[]
Le
fleur que vous aimez?
[]
L'oiseau
que vous pre'fe'rez?
[]
Vos
auteurs favoris en prose?
[]
Vos
poe'tes pre'fe're's?
[]
Vos
noms favoris?
[]
Le
caracte'res historiques que vous me'prisez le plus?
[]
Le fait
militaire que vous admirez le plus?
[]
Le don
de la nature que vous voudriez avoir?
[]
Ce que
vous de'testez par dessus tout?
[]
Comment
aimeriez-vous mourir?
[]
E'tat
pre'sent de votre esprit?
[]
Votre
devise?
[]
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:07:37 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Genesis in nuce.
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Yahweh by John Cage
Jabal
hE was
tHe
Of
haVE
nAme
He
Just
walkEd
with
gOd
filled with Violence
And
flesH
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:19:03 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
In-Reply-To: <33AEA2BE.5A60@midusa.net>
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RACE
--- wrote:
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>>
>>
btw, insp. derek:
>>
them weeds in the sidewalk obscure the cracks in universe in which i slip
>>
with tiny pad .
>>
some weed, some do not
>>
("some cook some do not" ole ezra said this i believe somewhere in
them
>
cantos.
>>
ok, enuf
>>
mc
>
>as
an old gardener said "watch which weeds you pull up!"
>in
the same vein
>step
on a crack - break your mother's back.
>
there
were always a lot of weeds in the sidewalk at my aunt's house in
oregon.
it was also there that my cousin who had been beaten and sexually
molested
by his father told me about the time he tried to kill his mother
with a
knife. but somehow, the thing i rember most is the little silver
dish of
candies that always sat on a dresser in the front room and my aunt
putting
her cripppled legs up on a dark leather chair.
-leo
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:14:46 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: lurker speaks
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>Mike
& Barbara Wirtz wrote:
>
About the women standing the test of time...you or someone had asked
>
what was the most significant development/work of the 20th C....I think
>
that the voices as a whole is the most significant development...
>
Perhaps as individuals they may not endure...but they spoke up and
>wrote
>
from a perspective that had been long neglected. I see it as the most
>
significant development...because I project that women will dominate
>
literature in the 21st C.... at least in America.
>
> As
for literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
>
purpose. I have never read literature,
or chosen literature, on that
>
basis. My life has not needed
saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
>
one for the job if it were the case.
I'm actually not even concerned
>
about literature as therapy. I am much
more concerned with the
>
expression of ideas and how well ideas
conveyed through
>
devices/technique. A good idea should
be expressed in a way that is
>
beyond compare...perfectly suited... an astounding synthesis of sound
>
and meaning .
>
> As
for howling....no thank you. At times I
do feel the need to applaud
>
and cheer... but howl, no. If I don't
like my life or situation, I do
>
something to change it. And...we are
from different worlds....I've
>
always been very lucky in many aspects. I've attended great schools,
>
always had diverse interests...extremely active in dance and
>
sports....and if I want to get high...I run in the desert or push
>
physical endurance somehow. I do not glamourize
drug use nor condone
>it
> in
any fashion. I honestly think the beats
were great
>
experimenters...and some truly were on quests, but their lives are
>
tragic as a whole. (and where many
thought they had attained
>
enlightenment...or epiphanies...they were just spewing the frazzled
>
synaptic mishaps of an overdose... It does NOT make for great art.
>When
> I
read poetry where the poet is obviously wacked, I think "junk"
>
...not revolutionary, novel, genius driven art) Ok *grin*...everyone
>
jump on me now.....
>
Barb
Hi
Barb,
First
of all, about women poets standing the test of time, I truly hope
that
great poetry does continue to come from women, but not because they
are
women. There is no male or female in
great poetry, only humanity, to
think
that you can write from a female perspective and have it last as
female
perspective, is a myth. What you touch
in yourself when you write
poetry
is the great oneness of the human experience.
And you add to that
experience
in one voice, that is neither male nor female, but one
that
comes from the huge, expanding river of consciouness that passes
through
and connects the minds of all of us.
You are
lucky that your life has never needing saving, actually maybe not
so
lucky, if your experience has kept your life safe and
compartmentalized,
because that's not the way of things in the universe.
No writer that has not touched the great
despair of our humannness can
write
about great joy. I am not at all
concerned with literature as
therapy
but the quest of humanness in all its darkness and light is what
has
propelled great literature to be written from Odysseus to now. "A
good
idea should be expressed in a way that is beyond compare...an
astounding
synthesis of sound and meaning"...is from my perspective back
to the
classical definition of creating a work of art outside of
yourself. I would rather see each and every moment of
life exalted and
poetic,
in all its rambling and unrulely glory.
I don't
think that beat writers glamourized drug use any more than Plath
or
Sexton glamourized suicide. It was a
part of their world and a part
of an
experimentation that covered all aspects of their lives. You
should
also consider that the use of drugs for some people is not that
different
than the endorphin high that you might get from pushing
physical
endurance. Both take you to another
level of consciousness, a
level
that makes mind and body one, and gives you the space to be at
peace
with the comings and goings of your daily existence. I spend my
days
interviewing people about why they run or bike, why they incorporate
exercise
into their lives, and that "sweet spot" that is reached in
pushing
the human body is not that far removed from an addict getting
their
hit for the day. When I was in my
twenties, I would have looked at
alcohol
or drugs for an answer, now I look to my bicycle. I would also
ask you
to look at the epiphanies or enlightment of any writer and to
examine
if they were any different if drugs were used or not. I think
not. I thing that if you substracted the fact
that Kerouac, Ginsberg or
Burroughs
used drugs, you would still recognize the brilliance of their
work
for what it is. Have you read
Finnegans Wake? I see beat writers
as
pushing the same stream of consciousness/mind into the heart of
American
life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:27:58 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
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Derek
A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
> mc
(& co)
>
aint something to be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds & all.
>
first thot best thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
>
captures the image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
>
distance the creation from the act of creation? distances the child from
>
the orgasm (to use a strange metaphor.)?
>
derek
> I
think it depends on every individual as to whether the spontaneous flow
is best
revised or not. The key to good revision
is to illuminate
without
losing the spontaneity of the flow. I
tend to write and revise
in my
head, kind of a mind that creates and revises simultaneously so
that by
the time my creation hits paper, it is seldom revised again.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 11:51:02 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To: <33AEEA5E.2ED9@together.net>
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On Mon,
23 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
>
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
> mc (& co)
>
> aint something to be said about eaving the sidewalk alone - weeds &
all.
>
> first thot best thot? welli dont know about that - but the firstthough
>
> captures the image as well as that moment of creation. dont editing
>
> distance the creation from the act of creation? distances the child from
>
> the orgasm (to use a strange metaphor.)?
>
> derek
>
> I think it depends on every individual as to whether the spontaneous flow
> is
best revised or not. The key to good
revision is to illuminate
>
without losing the spontaneity of the flow.
I tend to write and revise
> in
my head, kind of a mind that creates and revises simultaneously so
>
that by the time my creation hits paper, it is seldom revised again.
> DC
dc
(diane) and co.
by no
means am i argueing that marie's way of composing is wrong or flawed
(flod)
in any way. she & i been discussing poetry, etc for quite a while &
simply
approach composition of poetry in different ways. several things at
play -
what are you working at getting FROM yr poetry, what are you doing,
etc.
for instance marie referred to herself as a "confessional" poet at
one
point (dont remember where) and while that works for her & what she
needs
to explore in poetry / words, it aint my bag. not that i cant
appreciate
her poetry (exactly the opposite - in fact i'm frequently
humbled
by her works)personally - at the moment ive been pushing around
words
on page - words themselves - the way they *look*, feel, *act*, move
on the
page almost sculpture of form not necessarily meaning. & what works
best
for me is immediate interaction w/ page let the synapses fire where
they
may & half (or more) falls flat - fine with me. i'll learn for
nexttime.
the ACT, to me, is more important that the product (in my word
w(a)(o)nderings).
different
ways of approaching wrds.
same
core tho.
its all
communication from a creator.
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:04:36 -0400
Reply-To: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew W Barton
<mwb201@IS5.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
Comments:
To: "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33AD8260.307C@discovland.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
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having ignored the world for a spell,
i hope i'm not saying
anything
that has been said a dozen times already or ignores previous
explanitory
statements -- however... each writer
has their own style as
well as
method. one should not attempt to
duplicate either. because one
author
feels drugs inversely effect their craftmanship, what leaves you to
assume
it will adversely affect all. such
blanket statements have led
more
scholars to dismiss the beats, new york's downtown writers and
countless
other genres of art created in connection to drugs. burroughs
does
alright by me. smack wouldn't inspire
your failing mind though. if
your
shit stinks before drugs, it sure won't help.
hemingway used to
stand
before a podium to write. he said it
focused his whole mind upon
the
task at hand. it could have just been
to alleviate the discomfort of
hemroids. whatever, i wouldn't tell anyone how to
write or judge the
product
by the means one shapes their medium. i
didn't stand while typing
this.
mwbarton.
On Sun,
22 Jun 1997, neudorf@discovland.net wrote:
> In
response to Mike Skau's:
>
>
> Writing on drugs: often I feel that I create some of my best work stoned.
The
>
> problem is that when I look at it again the next morning, I'm so
embarrassed
>
> that I can only pray that I hadn't somehow shown it to anybody: Ginsberg's
>
> "in the morning were stanzas of gibberish." A Hallucination
Dissertation
>
> Manifesto of Coca, Saturn, and Sun.
>
>
> To
paraphrase Gary Snyder, he states that ("The Real Work" interviews)
> if
you write
>
*under the influence* of psychedelics, it is as if you are entering the
>
cave and
>
*stopping* at the first gold pieces, instead of experiencing the cave
>
for the cave, reaching farther into the cave where the diamonds lie.
>
Writing is a form of documentation, and if you are constantly
>
documenting, the pure experience, the beauty of the trip is compromised.
>
> It is more rewarding to write after
the fact - a little time for
>
contemplation - understanding of the trip - Wordsworth writes: "poetry
> is
the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings [which is the trip] . .
> .
recollected in tranquility" [after the trip].
>
> This is a good issue for discussion.
Spontaneous writing . . . there
is
>
definately a value, great writing erupts - yet it is with revision, the
>
discipline of the writing art form that the literature is perfected.
>
When the muse erupts in the body, spontaneously rising, there is nothing
>
else to do but document it. Perhaps if one is so perfected in his
>
language that the right word rises for every thought / emotion / etc.,
>
then stream of consciousness / spontaneous prose is an end to itself.
>
>
Joseph Neudorfer
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:02:57 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
Comments:
To: race@midusa.net
In a
message dated 97-06-23 14:43:24 EDT, you write:
<<
"watch which weeds you pull up
in the same vein! ">>
I just
edited you, race. It makes a strange
kind of sense this way, don't
you
think
--------maya.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:06:18 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: spin
Content-Type:
text
Hi!
The
current issue of _Spin_ has a memorial on Ginsberg: July 1997
issue,
pp. 52, 54-55.
Right
now I'm only 250 e-mail messages behind. In a couple of
days, I
hope to get caught up, so if you sent me a message, don't
think
that I'm ignoring you. I just haven't gotten to you yet.
Happy
summer to all!
Mike
Skau
6/23/97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:14:03 -0500
Reply-To: thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Eliot and Ginsberg
Comments:
To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970619221359_678499326@emout13.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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On Thu,
19 Jun 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
And both these boys ended up whores of Moloch.
> C.
Plymell
>
And
Kerouac once either wrote or said, "We're all whores." I found this
quotation
in _Memory Babe_ and have been meaning to ask Gerry for the
original
source. This saying really struck me as
insightful; we're all
sell-outs,
politicians, master manipulators. wow.
Jenn
Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:20:10 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33ADCA8B.55F7@together.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sun,
22 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
>
Just finished reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.
>
"...and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides
>
the forlorn rags of growing old..."
That line took me back to something
>
that Gerald Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that
>
"the knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]
>
wrote."
An
aside: didn't Kerouac directly say that somewhere? I seem to recall
having
heard his voice speak those words -- maybe in the 4-CD _Jack Kerouac
Collection_
[which is a must-have btw, and when my then-girlfriend gave this
to me
for my birthday in '93 it was the moment that I somehow knew she'd end
up my
wife].
>
Isn't the knowledge that we are going to die the reason that any writer
>
writes? Isn't that the reason that we
also grab onto life, every moment
> of
life? What maybe affected me more was
"...all that road going, all
>
the people dreaming in the immensity of it,..." The way Kerouac said it,
> it
was a kinda a great thing but a sad thing.
The way I see it, it's a
>
great thing and a positive thing, because it is individual dreams that
>
pull people out of dispair and what Kerouac came to see as the sadness of
>
America. Anyone out there got an
feelings about this?
To me,
this is the essence of Jack -- I think it was this emotion that was
at the
core of what drove him to write. Yeah it's a great thing and a sad
thing
at the same time; the chiaroscuro high-low orchestration of Jack
Kerouac
prose describes postwar Americana like no other. I wasn't there but
reading
him I actually felt it, and could apply it to the now and the
internal
moments of my own life -- so he has to use the word "redbrick" a
million
times in _Visions of Cody_ and gushes on about candy counters like a
goofball
-- it doesn't matter, that starryeyed dreaminess was testament to
his
existence as master of grabbing onto life and its every moment.
Self-awareness
is knowledge of your own life and damnation, it begets joy
and
therefore art.
m
Michael
Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:27:22 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: TA-DA!
In a
message dated 97-06-23 16:21:18 EDT, you write:
<<
Ah, yet well I know that were a woman
possible as I am possible
then marriage would be possible-(corso)
>>
yep,
that pretty much sums it up for me.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:51:23 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Collage of songs, (Exit light, enter
night.)
how
'bout a poem for mah bay-bee
ooh, ya
look so good
just
a-walkin downda street
singin
"evryting's gonna bee ah-ight"
And you
know it truly truly is sin
that
villains, always, blink their eyes!
HEY!
been
tryin' to meetcha.
Dontcha
know that happiness is a warm gun?
Burnin'
a hole in my pocket (silver rocket).
Some
men do it for diamonds, some do it for gold.
We
danced the Cemetery Polka all night
and
partied ev-er-y day.
But
momma,
i'm
gonna leave it all behind and face the pain.
Under
the bridge over troubled water.
'Cause
it makes me feel like I'm a man
when...
the streets have no name.
Base!
How low
can you go?
Death
Row?
Water
buffalo!
So
baybeh if ya feelin' good....
DISCLAIMER:
THE LINES IN THIS POEM ARE NOT ORIGINAL THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL LINES
FROM
DIFFERENT SONGS BY OTHER PEOPLE NOT ME.
so i
don't wanna hear it ok?
Just
for fun, how many of these lines can you identify?(singer and song!)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:06:46 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: madness
crate,
crate, crate.
That's
all i do anymore.
Mommee,
why did i hafta be born so damn crative?
"Shut
yer cake-hole ya fuckin' brat"
Oh god
is this one of those poems where i talk to myself.
(not
only that but i cuss myself too)
Somebody
send me some mail
to keep
me from tapping endlessly!
I would
rather read your stuff than mine.
And
rather than you reading mine, wouldn't you rather i read yours?
(i'll
show you mine....)
(some
people tell her 'oh, you must have a very interesting inner life')
WELL
THEY'RE RIGHT, OK???!!!
(maya,
is that little girl you?)
--------------------------------------maya(
truly mad, not just faking it for
artistic
purposes)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:09:55 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
04:20 PM 6/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On
Sun, 22 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
>
>>
Just finished reading On the Road and saw it as pretty sad at the end.
>>
"...and nobody, nobody knows what's going to happen to anybody besides
>>
the forlorn rags of growing old..."
That line took me back to something
>>
that Gerald Nicosia said in the Kerouac, meaning of life thread, that
>>
"the knowledge that 'we are all going to die' was why he [Kerouac]
>>
wrote."
>
>An
aside: didn't Kerouac directly say that somewhere? I seem to recall
>having
heard his voice speak those words -- maybe in the 4-CD _Jack Kerouac
>Collection_
[which is a must-have btw, and when my then-girlfriend gave this
>to
me for my birthday in '93 it was the moment that I somehow knew she'd end
>up
my wife].
Yeah,
I was
wondering why someone didn't quote this.
It's
from Visions of Cody and is part of the reading he did on the Steve
Allen
Show (funny how Jay leno doesn't have any authors reading nowadays).
"I
wrote the book cause we're all gonna die"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:23:49 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Collage of songs, (Exit light, enter
night.)
Comments:
To: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970623164937_1621369355@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
how 'bout a poem for mah bay-bee
>
ooh, ya look so good - PATTI SMITH (?)
>
just a-walkin downda street
>
singin "evryting's gonna bee ah-ight"
>
And you know it truly truly is sin
>
that villains, always, blink their eyes!
>
HEY!
>
been tryin' to meetcha.
>
Dontcha know that happiness is a warm gun? - BEATLES
>
Burnin' a hole in my pocket (silver rocket).
>
Some men do it for diamonds, some do it for gold.
> We
danced the Cemetery Polka all night
>
and partied ev-er-y day.
>
But momma,
>
i'm gonna leave it all behind and face the pain.
>
Under the bridge over troubled water. - SIMON &GARFUNKEL
>
'Cause it makes me feel like I'm a man
>
when... the streets have no name. - U2
>
Base!
>
How low can you go?
>
Death Row?
>
Water buffalo! - PUBLIC ENEMY
> So
baybeh if ya feelin' good....
>
>
DISCLAIMER: THE LINES IN THIS POEM ARE NOT ORIGINAL THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL LINES
>
FROM DIFFERENT SONGS BY OTHER PEOPLE NOT ME.
> so
i don't wanna hear it ok?
>
Just for fun, how many of these lines can you identify?(singer and song!)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:34:28 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: first thought and revision
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-06-23 14:43:24 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< "watch which weeds you pull up
> in the same vein! ">>
>
> I
just edited you, race. It makes a
strange kind of sense this way, don't
>
you think
>
--------maya.
that
particular arrangement is definitely one that consciously in my
mind
but layers and layers of others through the foggy mist and bog of
my
morning daze. i recommend the previous
wording.
imagine
the old gardener and let me know what he looks like down to his
veins. you are much better at such imagination than
I.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:35:33 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
Comments:
To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199706232109.OAA16732@hsc.usc.edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon,
23 Jun 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
It's from Visions of Cody and is part of the reading he did on the Steve
>
Allen Show (funny how Jay leno doesn't have any authors reading nowadays).
>
>
"I wrote the book cause we're all gonna die"
Ah --
yes -- also quoteed on back cover of Penguin VOC amid collage of
Neal/Jack/etc
pics...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:48:58 -0400
Reply-To: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sisyphus
<sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>
Subject: Re: who was around in the 60's?
Comments:
To: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970623083601_-792219484@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon,
23 Jun 1997, Maya Gorton wrote:
>
gangsta chick in 1940's Chicago in my previous life helps. I didn't miss a
"moll"
honey. Gangsta chick is today. "Moll" is 1940.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:06:03 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Charles Bukowski discussion List
Comments:
To: chaingang@samurai.com
Comments:
cc: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Please
excuse the following information. I don't normally like doing cross
postings
to various groups nor do I like shameless promotion, but........
<i
don't this doesn't excuse me, but what the hey!>
Anyways,
several people have contacted me off these various lists about an
email
list for the discussion of charles bukowski. I have done a web search
on him,
and have not found a list that was currently up and running. A
friend
of mine has donated his cpu time to creating a list for me for such
an
event! ;)
So, if
you are interested in the discussion of Charles Bukowski (his works,
et al),
please send email
to:
listproc@bigendian.com
In the
body of the message, put:
subscribe bukowski your name <your name
being = your firstname your
lastname>
If you
have any questions, please feel free to contact me via this address
OR at
simunye@sekurity.org
thanks
for your time :)
ttfn.
Lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey Computer Consultant UIN: 1231211
************************************************************
words...1000's of words.. wrapped
together like wire
how easy it would be to
hate you
and yet that is all i can
show you.
Nothing lasts forever. -me
http://the.art.of.sekurity.org/simunye
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:37:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ketchup
In a
message dated 97-06-23 07:49:38 EDT, you write:
<<
Ginsberg's
"in the morning were stanzas of gibberish."
A Hallucination Dissertation
Manifesto of Coca, Saturn, and Sun. >>
Could
you tell me when this appeared and more about the context?
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:48:06 -0400
Reply-To: Hpark4@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Hunter Thompson 6/13 in DC
Since
there have been a few inquiries of late about HST...
HST
appeared at Olesson's Books near DuPont Circle in Washington on June 13.
About 100 mostly GenX'ers were in line to
await his not all that late
arrival. HST did not sign the books, rather a
bookstore employee gave out
supposedly
signed (initials only) bookplates.
The
line passed quickly as the amazingly awestruck crowd filed past HST, a
little
like catholic peasents meeting the Pope, drink and cigarette in his
hand
(funny how the usual rules about no smaking or drinking don't apply to
celebrities,
but I'm not complaining). He traveled with several aides,
probably
from the publisher, who were there to ferry him around. A boombox
played
Donovan tunes, very softly, circa 1967 or so.
HST had little to say
and was
kinda hard to hear, but he looks *fairly* well.
The
funny thing was that after the crowd passed, about 25 people stayed just
to
watch him sit there, doing very little.
The crowd seemed to view him from
a
respectful distance, not at all unlike a rare animal in a zoo. This was
really
quite auckward as HST mumbled a few thoughts, rarely a sentence, to
his
aides and bookstore employees as the crowd just stood there, no one
daring
to get within about 10 feet of HST, who seemed bored.
Finally,
one of the aides said "Dr. Thompson will only be here a few more
minutes,
so if anyone wants to talk to him this is your chance." That broke
the ice
as the crowd approached him, much closer.
Thompson was VERY bored
with
the usual "I love your books stuff" but he seemed a little interested
when I
asked how Gary Hart was doing ("just fine...well
considering...fine...I
saw him a few months ago...) and we talked about the
time I
met him previously, 13 years ago, when I drove him around for a day
culminating
in an episode when he, for no apparent reason, grabbed the
steering
wheel of the car I was driving, disrupting the motorcade we were
in.,
and yelled at me to made a sudden turn as we kinda fought over the
steering
wheel. I can't tell if HST remembered
that or not. He said
something
about he did it to protest that "negros" were not being allowed on
the
campaign plane. I said that I was
talking about 1984 and that I did'nt
remember
anything about racism in the Hart campaign (OK, Hart was not
perfect,
but he certainly did not bar black folks from the plane!) HST
muttered
something like "must have been another campaign..." While he did
listen
he is not an easy guy to communicate with.
A very good looking woman
asked
him if he wanted to have a drink later, which distracted him from me
(not
surprisingly), but then an aide sort of muscled in to damper any notion
that
HST would alter or change his schedule.
HST did not protest, but looked
just a
little disappointed. I was just a
little disappointed that HST did
not
acknowledge my Lowell Celebrates Kerouac" t-shirt that I had worn for
this
special occasion. A few more, barely
intelligble musings sputtered
forth
from HST, and then the aide announced it was time to go to the
Washington
Post.
The book,
"The Proud Highway" looks interesting.
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:00:52 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: About to Play Solitaire
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Have
finished the chores schedule for this day and am about to relax to
some
evening solitaire on my computer Charlie (who is wearing a nice
black
gangster hat right now) with this semi-beat poem in mind.
____________
"Well,
ings die easy when nobody cares
and
queens have smiled on the gallows
and
dukes have vanished while saying their prayers
and
heirs have drowned in the shallows
and the lords have laughed while
falling in flames
and ladies have died of dishonor
and counts have exploded while sunning
in Spain
and knights have stewed in their armor
but the
jack, jack o'diamonds
jack
o'diamonds is a hard card to play.
Now
cowboys die in the arms of a friend
while
the sun's conveniently setting
and
Cherokees go to their feathery end
while everyone's
home minuetting
and generals fade very slowly away
while golfing and drinking martinis
and general's girlfriends have dropped
in the grave
while wearing highheels and bikinis
but the
jack, the jack o'diamonds,
jack
o'diamonds is a hard card to play.
Now
presidents sink on schooners-of-state
and
banks have failed from corruption
and
congressman perish at open debate
and
lawyers have choked on deductions
and rich men die from sugary food
and paupers die when they're reeling
and wise men go out in a hungover mood
and virgins die once, without feeling
but the
jack, jack o'diamonds,
jack
o'diamonds is a hard card to play."
== RICHARD
FARINA, 1966
____________________________
solitaire
and Jack
and
going to Jill for a pale of water
and
dreaming of
Lily
and Rosemary
but -
that is
a legend of hearts
not
diamonds
or
rust.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:21:22 -0400
Reply-To: Ted Harms
<tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ted Harms <tmharms@LIBRARY.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Beats and Bacon
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Having
spent untold hours playing the Kevin Bacon game (for more info, go
to
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~bct7m/bacon.html), I thought I'd just pass
along
to everybody that Jack's Bacon number is 3, Allen's is 2, and Old
Bill's
number is also 2.
Ted
Harms Library,
Univ. of Waterloo
tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca 519.888.4567 x3761
"...it's
elephants all the way down." - from Hindu cosmology
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:20:09 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Help the beaten
Comments:
To: Tom Baylor <tbaylor@forbin.com>
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Can
someone tell my good friend Tom Baylor (see email address above) how
to
subscribe to the Beat list. I would
appreciate it very much. Also,
if it
is posted on the web please send it to me, I would like to put the
url on
my link page. Thanks,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:28:18 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: howling is expression of life
In a
message dated 97-06-23 09:08:46 EDT, you write:
<<
As for literature saving lives...I have never
once thought it was the
purpose.
I have never read literature, or chosen literature, on that
basis.
My life has not needed saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
one for the job if it were the case. I'm actually not even concerned
about literature as therapy. I am much more concerned with the
expression of ideas and how well ideas conveyed through
devices/technique. A good idea should be expressed in a way that is
beyond compare...perfectly suited... an astounding synthesis of sound
and meaning . >>
I would
be dead if it weren't for William S Burroughs.
Writing
is not only about expressing ideas but also emotions. In fact it is
a big
myth that ideas and emotions are separate.
Writing is about finding
the
right combination of words to express exactly what you feel/think. If
you
only feel/think happy thoughts, you are only writing about half of life.
"shiny happy words" are so boring
they make me want to die.
Aesthetic Nihilism is so boring it makes me
want to die.
I think
Burroughs, for all his non-involvement in his friends' Buddhism
research,
is the one who gets it better than anyone.
It's all about balance.
just
thought of sumthing: Burroughs says he believes in the long shot. when
you're
down and been k.o.'d, you can still rise up and give one last
punch...and
that's the most beautiful thing ever.
And that's the general
condition.
To fight back. That's the strength you
need to be an artist.
When no one thinks you can do it, you show
them your creative biceps. Flex
'em. Say "yes, i HAVE been working
out". Nanny nanny boo boo, stick
your
head in
doo doo.
I
believe in a more visceral definition of poetry. not just writing pretty
words
and feelings. That's what I call
"bad art". (that's what i'd be doing
if my
mommy had been nice and stuff).
Putting
it all down so that after you read it you say "there is such
sadness...but
everything's gonna be OK. Because even
after the Apocalypse, a
little
bitty flower can bloom"
It's a
basic faith in life. But to have it you
need death too.
If you
never howl, how can you appreciate laughter?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:25:30 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: corso(was lies, againg, and all that
existential angst)
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
someone somewhere in the endless scrolled message on this topic of
>
lies/aging etc
>
said that he wanted to know more about this 'corso guy' who is a poet who
> at
times dons the gonzo poet cap just as HST is gonzo journalism. i highly
>
recommend _elegiac feelings american_ to you, also, my favorite poem about
>
marriage
>
and, in meantime here is a more reflective corso piece:
>
HELLO
> it
is disastrous to be a wounded deer.
>
i'm the most wounded, wolves stalk,
>
and i have my failures, too.
> my
flesh is caught on the inevitable hook!
> as
i child i saw many things i did not want to be.
> Am
i the person i did not want to be?
> that
talks-to-himself person?
>
that - neighbours make-fun-of person?
> am
i he who, on museum steps, sleeps on his side?
> do
i wear the cloth of a man who has failed?
> am
i the looney man?
> in
the great serenade of things,
> am i the most cancelled passage?
>
_______
God,
that's a great line!--am I the most cancelled passage?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:53:16 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
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>
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
>
> dc (diane) and co.
> by no means am i argueing that marie's way
of composing is wrong or
>
flawed
> (flod) in any way. she & i been
discussing poetry, etc for quite a
>
while &
> simply approach composition of poetry in
different ways. several
>things
>at
>
play - what are you working at getting FROM yr poetry, what are you
>doing,
>
etc. for instance marie referred to herself as a "confessional" poet
at
>
one point (dont remember where) and while that works for her & what she
>
needs to explore in poetry / words, it aint my bag. not that i cant
>
appreciate her poetry (exactly the opposite - in fact i'm frequently
>
humbled by her works)personally - at the moment ive been pushing around
>
words on page - words themselves - the way they *look*, feel, *act*,
>move
> on
the page almost sculpture of form not necessarily meaning. & what
>works
>
best for me is immediate interaction w/ page let the synapses fire
>where
>
they may & half (or more) falls flat - fine with me. i'll learn for
>
nexttime. the ACT, to me, is more important that the product (in my
>word
>w(a)(o)nderings).
>
different ways of approaching wrds.
>
same core tho.
>
its all communication from a creator.
>
derek
> It's all in the process and everyone's
process is different. I would
say
that I write in the tradition of Ginsberg, people sometimes comment
they
see Blakean and Joycean themes. I don't
think I would call it
confessional
but try to address my own personal experience in the
framework
of greater human experience. But yes,
there are a lot of I's
there
and a lot of trauma. If I was to model someone in expressing my own
voice,
it would be Ginsberg. I work toward the
emotional expression of
an idea,
and not at all ever concerned about how the words look on the
page or
how they got there, no sculpture of form, only meaning. I'm much
more
concerned with the product as opposed to the act of creating. I just
trust
that the voice of the creator will be there when I need it.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:31:50 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Kerouac's sadness
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The
following passages discuss what I find to be an interesting
comparison--as
to why Kerouac seemed to embrace hopelessness more than
Ginsberg
ever did.
>From
Ginsberg Verbatim: (GB=Gordon Ball)
AG: I keep thinking that Kerouac proposed--like
Whitman--a sort of noble
ideal
American open-minded sensibility, open road, open energy, with some
flaws
in it, and some contradictions, but nothing unresolvable with
common
sense; the direction America took was toward a military
hardheartedness
and mass murder that even he disapproved of, so the
openhearted
sensibility, the sensibility of 'the happy nut,' that Kerouac
was
praising, the openhearted sensibility that he proposed, was rejected
by the
nation, so his soul and his sense of soul was rejected, and his
art was
also rejected for that reason--not only by the hardhearted
people,
but also by, say, literate people who doubted the reality of
soul,
finally, seeing around them the great mechanical robot monster of
the
nation, thinking that force has to be met by force. So the radical
left
rejected Kerouac's open heart, the middle-class hippie book
reviewers
of The Times rejected Kerouac's open heart, the
pseudo-bohemians
wanted sumpin' smarter and more degenerate and terrible;
the
weekly news magazines thought it was naive in the face of the giant
holocaust
the military mind created and perpetuated; so Kerouac's art was
never
really appreciated or understood or accepted, though it was the
right
medicine for the nation. So his whole
sensibility was rejected,
and I
think that crushed him in the sense of making him pessimistic,
making
him realize how really unrelievably awful American destiny was,
and I
think he just took the hint and retired from the scene, in a sense,
seeing
that the condition of American was hopeless.
It's like what
Gregory
says in his elegy for Kerouac: if Kerouac was the nation's
singer,
or prophet, or the man who sings for the nation, and if the
nation
itself dies, how can the singer live?
He gave himself to the
nation
as its singer, and the nation rejected him.
GB: The nation as a whole does not seemed to
have followed your
prescriptions
either, but your reaction has been different from
Kerouac's.
AG: Well, I know, but my development was much
slower, my maturity was
much
slower than Jack's. Jack was already mature
around 1950, '51, and
had a
complete visionary conception by '53, not only visionary but
complete
metaphysical and visionary and Buddhist conception of the open
road,
being on the road, and ghosts on the road and everything, and
already
had produced like his great art work; it took me till years later
to
slowly learn from him. He went into the
chaos ahead of other people
and saw
ahead of other people and was perhaps more lonely, and was
wounded.
GB: Do you think the longer time you spent before
assuming something
like a
nation singer role might have made the difference?
AG: Except that the time has in a sense perhaps
inured me to the social
lie and
made be a part of the larger social lie of hope. Kerouac was
essentially
hopeless, finally, saw no hope. And
having accepted that he
could,
you know, like drink himself to death. I still maintain this
perhaps
false hope. Don't wanna be moved out of
my comforts, out of my
comfortable
body, I don't know. I think it's
unanswerable. But the very
simple,
tiny point I wanna make is, as Gregory said, as the nation fell,
so did
its singer, to the extent that he was the original singer of the
open
heart open road for that generation, of the fifties, so it must make
him
most raw and vulnerable to the poisoning of the body politic.
It's his own role so what can he do,
and in a nation which is
itself
so messed up, what is he going to be--a happy singer? Happy,
healthy
singer of a dying, decadent, destructive world? Happy joker?
And I keep thinking I'm too comfortable in this chamber of
horrors,
so my own future I think will be more mediative and ascetic.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:48:29 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: forlorn rags of growing old
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
(apologies in advance if this had already been posted to list, sometimes
>
this list feels like i'm playing jeopardy, to hit the send button (buzzer)
> before
the next member)
>
> I grow old...I grow old...
> I
shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled,
>
>
Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?
>
> I
shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the
> beach
> I
have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.
>
> I
do not think they will sing to me.
Did you
write that from memory? I think I must
have been absent the day
everyone
else in the universe memorized Eliot. I
just read an interview
on
Mongo's Bearwulf's site www.ginzy.com, where Ginsberg had a nightmare
about
Eliot reading his poems.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:19:17 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: dear abby...MARRIAGE! (HELP!)
THIS
RANT is on a more personal note than usual so feel free to delete right
now.
my
not-so-fresh brain slurps and sloshes inside my skull as i shake my head
"no".
I'm too
tired tonight for any damn boyfriend.
That
Corso poem about marriage somehow stuck in my head all day today. I
don't
know which one scares the shit out of me more, Marriage or Aloneness.
I know some happily married people---can't be
all bad. But i would miss...
The thrill of talking to someone quietly
alone and the tension before you
confess
your affection in a kiss. God sometimes
i think that's what i live
for.
Then
again, it all goes down-hill after that.
And i'm shaking my head to
avoid
the fear of inevitably having to break his (tender young) heart after
the
initial thrill is gone. Am I the
emotional vampire i never wanted to
become?
So many
nights of rumpled sheets and i don't even remember all the names...
pale
rail-thin boys
muscly
backs,
visible
ribs
tattooed
skin
soft
dark skin
scarred
arms
smooth,
unmarked skin
strong
arms
green
eyes
warm
brown eyes
cold
grey eyes (sometimes blue)
long
hair short hair blue hair grey hair
shaved
head
mmmm....skaters.
Punkers,
hippies, intellectuals, rock stars.
Mostly
disenchanted artists.
Pretending
not to love me.
Hah!
Warm
hands with long bony fingers
callusses
on the tips from playing bass/welding/typing
paint
under fingernails:
"Wash
yer damn hands before you touch me!"
good
gracious, even pierced nipples.
Could
it possibly be time to settle down with only 1?
I have
a friend, he's a writer...a real sweetheart.....
Jeesus,
wha's wrong with me. SNAP OUT OF IT!!!
My
solution: go live in ascetic seclusion in Thailand and think real hard
about
something other than this.
They
should invent "anti-sex" pills so that when you feel an inconvenient
and
distracting
urge you can just pop a pill and the mere thought of sex makes
you
nauseous. now THAT would be useful.
Until
then i'll just feel like some kind of weird vampire-woman who needs
human
closeness and affection (read: sex) to survive....to keep me strong and
rejuvenated.
Without it I shrivel and wilt.
don't
get me wrong: i love my boyfriend. But
I don't want to marry him. Do
i
really love him? And if so, why do i want to kiss every boy i meet?
According to the books, i should be long past
adolescence. Someone please
tell me
what the hell is going on.
---------maya
"Confusion
is...sex"---Sonic Youth
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:28:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: howling is expression of life
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Maya
Gorton wrote:
>
> I
would be dead if it weren't for William S Burroughs.
>
i would
have to say that i am probably on the same ship here. as i
ended
Colt-45 i recounted how after i 'accidentally'(?) drank some
gasoline
on an unknown balcony in an Illinois winter i heard the voice
of
william burroughs quack "you can only call the doctor once". my mind
screamed
out doctor, doctor (just to test his singular theory). i
lived.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:51:28 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
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quoted-printable
from a
jesuit priest on the island
Remember
that the ubiquitous, everlasting and infinite power of the Lord is
a
double-edged sword.**
-leo
**
whack whack, let it bleed.
"Zeus,
most glorious and great, and you other immortal gods; may the brains
of
whichever party beraks this treaty be poured out on the ground as that
wine is
poured, and not only theirs but their childrens too; and may
foriegners
possess their wives." -- war prayer from Homer's Iliad
"You
scream, I steam, we all want egg cream." --Lou Reed, "Egg Cream"
"The
air is dark, the night is sad
I lie
sleepless and I groan
Nobody
cares when a man goes mad.
He is
sorry, God is glad.
Shadow
changes into bone,
shadow
changes into bone."
--Allen
Ginsberg, from "Interlude"
"God
said to Abraham, 'Kill me a son.' Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin'
me on'
God said 'No.' Abe said, 'What?' God said 'You can do what you want
Abe
but, next time you see me comin', man you better run.' Well, Abe said
'Where
you want this killin' done?' God said 'Out on Highway 61.'" --Bob
Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 22:06:43 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Blah, Blah, Blah
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Strange
juxtapositions this pm. Down at
Kepler's in Menlo Park (the new
store,
not the old one where Neal used to stalk the astrology section
for
impressionable coeds). Tried to listen
for awhile to Naomi Woolfe
(sp?
Wolf, Wolfe), self proclaimed 3rd Wave Feminist reading from her
new
book "promescutities". Could
stand about five minutes thinking that
if one
reversed the sexes on any of her remarks you could get sued on
any
college campus. Walked out feeling like
Rodney King, "Can't we all
just
get along."
Home
watching Hopper and Jodie Foster in "Backtrack" where Hopper is a
sax
playing hipster hit man and Foster a kidnapped computer artist.
Silly
in parts, but a nice bit when Hopper tells Foster that what she
does
isn't art. "Art is Charlie Parker and Hieronymous Bach or whoever
he
was." Some wonderful
flirting. Realized maybe sex isn't dead
yet.
Only
dying slowly.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:14:31 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@GUINAN.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: dear abby...MARRIAGE! (HELP!)
In-Reply-To:
<970624001916_-1562490373@emout19.mail.aol.com>
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>THIS
RANT is on a more personal note than usual so feel free to delete righ=
t
>now.
>
>my
not-so-fresh brain slurps and sloshes inside my skull as i shake my head
>"no".
>I'm
too tired tonight for any damn boyfriend.
>
>That
Corso poem about marriage somehow stuck in my head all day today. I
>don't
know which one scares the shit out of me more, Marriage or Aloneness.
> I
know some happily married people---can't be all bad. But i would miss..=
=2E
>
> The thrill of talking to someone quietly
alone and the tension before you
>confess
your affection in a kiss. God sometimes
i think that's what i live
>for.
>
>Then
again, it all goes down-hill after that.
And i'm shaking my head to
>avoid
the fear of inevitably having to break his (tender young) heart after
>the
initial thrill is gone. Am I the
emotional vampire i never wanted to
>become?
>
>So
many nights of rumpled sheets and i don't even remember all the names...
>
>pale
rail-thin boys
>muscly
backs,
>visible
ribs
>tattooed
skin
>soft
dark skin
>scarred
arms
>smooth,
unmarked skin
>strong
arms
>green
eyes
>warm
brown eyes
>cold
grey eyes (sometimes blue)
>long
hair short hair blue hair grey hair
>shaved
head
>mmmm....skaters.
>Punkers,
hippies, intellectuals, rock stars.
>Mostly
disenchanted artists.
>Pretending
not to love me.
>Hah!
>Warm
hands with long bony fingers
>callusses
on the tips from playing bass/welding/typing
>paint
under fingernails:
>"Wash
yer damn hands before you touch me!"
>good
gracious, even pierced nipples.
>
>Could
it possibly be time to settle down with only 1?
>I
have a friend, he's a writer...a real sweetheart.....
>Jeesus,
wha's wrong with me. SNAP OUT OF IT!!!
>My
solution: go live in ascetic seclusion in Thailand and think real hard
>about
something other than this.
>
>They
should invent "anti-sex" pills so that when you feel an inconvenient
a=
nd
>distracting
urge you can just pop a pill and the mere thought of sex makes
>you
nauseous. now THAT would be useful.
>
>Until
then i'll just feel like some kind of weird vampire-woman who needs
>human
closeness and affection (read: sex) to survive....to keep me strong a=
nd
>rejuvenated.
Without it I shrivel and wilt.
>
>don't
get me wrong: i love my boyfriend. But
I don't want to marry him. D=
o
>i
really love him? And if so, why do i want to kiss every boy i meet?
>
According to the books, i should be long past adolescence. Someone please
>tell
me what the hell is going on.
>---------maya
>"Confusion
is...sex"---Sonic Youth
many
possible suggestions here: virgin birth, the beautiful permanent
longing,
intoxication,then melancholy. i wonder sometimes whether this poem
has a
meaning.
The
Vestal Lady on Brattle --G. Corso
Within
a delicate grey ruin
the
vestal lady on Brattle
is up
at dawn, as is her custom,
with
the raise of a shade.
Swan-boned
slippers revamp her aging feet;
she
glides within an outer room...
pours
old milk for an old cat.
=46ull-bodied
and randomly young she clings,
peers
down; hovers over a wine filled vat,
and
outstretched arms like wings,
revels
in the image of child below.
Despaired,
she ripples a sunless finger
across
the liquid eyes; in darkness
the
child spirals down; drowns.
Pain
leans her forward--face absorbing all--
mouth
upon broken mouth, she drinks...
Within
a delicate grey ruin
the
vestal lady on Brattle
is up
and about, as is her custom,
drunk
with child.
-leo
"Zeus,
most glorious and great, and you other immortal gods; may the brains
of
whichever party beraks this treaty be poured out on the ground as that
wine is
poured, and not only theirs but their childrens too; and may
foriegners
possess their wives." -- war prayer from Homer's Iliad
"You
scream, I steam, we all want egg cream." --Lou Reed, "Egg Cream"
"The
air is dark, the night is sad
I lie
sleepless and I groan
Nobody
cares when a man goes mad.
He is
sorry, God is glad.
Shadow
changes into bone,
shadow
changes into bone."
--Allen
Ginsberg, from "Interlude"
"God
said to Abraham, 'Kill me a son.' Abe said 'Man, you must be puttin'
me on'
God said 'No.' Abe said, 'What?' God said 'You can do what you want
Abe
but, next time you see me comin', man you better run.' Well, Abe said
'Where
you want this killin' done?' God said 'Out on Highway 61.'" --Bob
Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:42:01 +0000
Reply-To: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: The Role of the Poet
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Matthew
W Barton wrote:
> .
. . having ignored the world for a spell, i hope i'm not saying
>
anything that has been said a dozen times already or ignores previous
>
explanitory statements -- however...
each writer has their own style as
>
well as method. one should not attempt
to duplicate either. because one
>
author feels drugs inversely effect their craftmanship, what leaves you to
>
assume it will adversely affect all.
such blanket statements have led
>
more scholars to dismiss the beats, new york's downtown writers and
>
countless other genres of art created in connection to drugs.
The purpose of highlighting diverse
poetics is to be able to pick and
choose
and mesh it into your own, so we are in basic agreement - even if
we
don't agree with the poetics.
The final criteria for art is if it is
*genius* - no matter what the
baggage
it came from.
Barb
wrote:
> As
for literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
>
purpose. I have never read literature,
or chosen literature, on that
>
basis. My life has not needed
saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
>
one for the job if it were the case.
The
Chilean poet, Nicanor Parra, (simple, humourous, working class -
overshadowed
by Pablo Neruda), writes:
"The poet is there to see to it
the tree does not grow crooked"
[i forget the line structure]
Ralph
Waldo Emerson writes ("The Poet" - essay):
"Poets are thus liberating
gods"
Why
not? The poet documents experience, and is a master of experience.
If he
is socially / politically inclined - and is balanced - he should
live
the life of the boddhisatva, with his writings as his teachings.
I know this is much to ask from the
Poet, but then again, to be Poet is
to live
difficult, and this difficulty is his reward.
On another level, the Poet creates art
for art's sake - beauty. A well
written
howl is beautiful - regardless of subject matter.
Joseph
Neudorfer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 02:17:06 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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neudorf@discovland.net
wrote:
>
>
Matthew W Barton wrote:
>
>
> . . . having ignored the world for a spell, i hope i'm not saying
>
> anything that has been said a dozen times already or ignores previous
>
> explanitory statements -- however...
each writer has their own style as
>
> well as method. one should not attempt
to duplicate either. because one
>
> author feels drugs inversely effect their craftmanship, what leaves you to
>
> assume it will adversely affect all.
such blanket statements have led
>
> more scholars to dismiss the beats, new york's downtown writers and
>
> countless other genres of art created in connection to drugs.
>
> The purpose of highlighting diverse
poetics is to be able to pick and
>
choose and mesh it into your own, so we are in basic agreement - even if
> we
don't agree with the poetics.
> The final criteria for art is if it
is *genius* - no matter what the
>
baggage it came from.
>
>
Barb wrote:
>
>
> As for literature saving lives...I have never once thought it was the
>
> purpose. I have never read literature,
or chosen literature, on that
>
> basis. My life has not needed
saving...and I'm not sure a poet is the
>
> one for the job if it were the case.
>
>
The Chilean poet, Nicanor Parra, (simple, humourous, working class -
>
overshadowed by Pablo Neruda), writes:
>
> "The poet is there to see to it
the tree does not grow crooked"
> [i forget the line structure]
>
>
Ralph Waldo Emerson writes ("The Poet" - essay):
>
> "Poets are thus liberating
gods"
>
> Why
not? The poet documents experience, and is a master of experience.
> If
he is socially / politically inclined - and is balanced - he should
>
live the life of the boddhisatva, with his writings as his teachings.
> I know this is much to ask from the
Poet, but then again, to be Poet
is
> to
live difficult, and this difficulty is his reward.
>
> On another level, the Poet creates
art for art's sake - beauty. A well
>
written howl is beautiful - regardless of subject matter.
>
> Joseph
Neudorfer
Colin
Wilson writes in the Occult
The
Poet is a man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed than
in most
people. While most of us are ruthlessly
"cutting out" whole
areas
of perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
retains
the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
world
"out there."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:52:32 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
In-Reply-To: <33AF7472.56DB@midusa.net>
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At
12:17 AM -0700 6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
>
The Poet is a man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed than
> in
most people. While most of us are
ruthlessly "cutting out" whole
>
areas of perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
>
retains the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
>
world "out there."
you're
describing a middle aged man, fat with glasses, insomniac, drug
dependant,
all around asshole. don't forget these
kind of fucking poets!
every
word is loud and obscene. vulger, foul,
distorted. a last breath
before
a vowel...aaaaaaah. that was it. <<hehehe>>
oh, my
inner child is screaming, "oh, my hair has been cut too short, I
must
drive to Cleveland and pick up beer hall chicks...." At this level,
everybody
is poetic. trains of thought, which you
site as being hauled off
en
masse by some anti-x faculty. I think I
went to school there. fluent
in that
yada yada way of talk. yadya yada daya
dyadya. UClA
and no
attention span. That's the kind of poet
you're describing. Is that
what
you meant??
cheers,
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
save
it, just keep it off my wave
is
-- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 00:55:51 -0700
Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner911
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Blah, Blah, Blah
In-Reply-To: <33AF55E3.1F3@pacbell.net>
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At
10:06 PM -0700 6/23/97, James Stauffer wrote:
>
Strange juxtapositions this pm.
<.....>
>
Realized maybe sex isn't dead yet.
>
Only dying slowly.
I get
tired sometimes, but find the effort worth it.
dying slowly, I mean.
Queen
Victoria, where are you?
>
> J.
Stauffer
cheers,
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:53:37 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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runner911
wrote:
>
> At
12:17 AM -0700 6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> The Poet is a man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed than
>
> in most people. While most of us
are ruthlessly "cutting out" whole
>
> areas of perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
>
> retains the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
>
> world "out there."
>
>
you're describing a middle aged man, fat with glasses, insomniac, drug
>
dependant, all around asshole. don't
forget these kind of fucking poets!
>
every word is loud and obscene. vulger,
foul, distorted. a last breath
>
before a vowel...aaaaaaah. that was
it. <<hehehe>>
>
>
oh, my inner child is screaming, "oh, my hair has been cut too short, I
>
must drive to Cleveland and pick up beer hall chicks...." At this level,
>
everybody is poetic. trains of thought,
which you site as being hauled off
> en
masse by some anti-x faculty. I think I
went to school there. fluent
> in
that yada yada way of talk. yadya yada
daya dyadya. UClA
>
>
and no attention span. That's the kind
of poet you're describing. Is that
>
what you meant??
>
>
cheers, Douglas
>
>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
summer
>
save it, just keep it off my wave
is
> -- ("my wave," soundgarden) here
actually,
the answer would be an EMPHATIC
no. The kind of poet being
described
in that quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
understood
as a word alchemist. if one accepts the
power of symbols in
shaping
reality, the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
symbolic
soup is a Real form of contemporary alchemy.
What you were
referring
to is probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
alchemist
can with some effort overcome the population of these middle
aged
gentlement in terms of pure magic.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:55:06 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Blah, Blah, Blah
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runner911
wrote:
>
> At
10:06 PM -0700 6/23/97, James Stauffer wrote:
>
>
> Strange juxtapositions this pm.
<.....>
>
>
> Realized maybe sex isn't dead yet.
>
> Only dying slowly.
>
> I
get tired sometimes, but find the effort worth it. dying slowly, I mean.
>
Queen Victoria, where are you?
>
>
>
>
> J. Stauffer
>
>
cheers, Douglas
i
believe that Queen Victoria is permanently trapped in a Leonard Cohen
lyrical
tune.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:09:11 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: FireWalk flash back to the beginning....
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I'm
pretty certain that i haven't let y'all in on the first two pieces
of
FireWalk. that's kind of like stepping
in after the first act.=20
Here's
the epigrams and title piece. Colt-45
will be coming later this
evening
or tomorrow. I really appreciate the
backchannel comments and
discussions
i've been having over this material.
i'm now having serious
thoughts
about doing an exploding text of the original firewalk
collection
by myself as a form of 5 year retrospective on those events.=20
thanks
again for all the constructive, destructive, deconstructive,
reconstructive
and just damn friendly criticisms.
david
rhaesa=20
salina,
Kansas
>=20
>
Firewalk Thru Madness Collection ... by David Rhaesa
>
Copyright, December 1992
>=20
>
=93He was insane. And when you look
directly an an insane man all you =
see
> is
a reflection of your own knowledge that he=92s insane, which is not =
to
>
see him at all. To see him you must see
what he saw ahd when you are
>
trying to see the vision of an insane man, an oblique route is the only
>
way to come at it.=94
> --
Robert Pirsig
>=20
>
=93One must harbor chaos within to give birth to a dancing star=94
> --
Nietzsche
>=20
>
=93I think present-day reason is an analogue of the flat earth of the
>
medieval period. If you go too far
beyond it you=92re presumed to fall
>
off, into insanity. And people are very
much afraid of that. I think
>
fear of insanity if comparable to the fear people once had of falling
>
off the edge of the world.=94
> -
Robert Pirsig
>=20
>
=93Firewalk Thru Madness=94
>=20
>
Fire - essential eleemnt/ Holy Spirit and Cigarette Ember connecting
>
wind and death rain and life. Lightning
strikes my soul as I see the
>
spark of a new idea. strike another
match start anew Dylan says and I
>
ask him if he=92s seen her lately? He
just smiles and says Look what I=
=92ve
>
done for you lately.
>=20
> I
lost your pick and the insulin madman who gave it to me died last
>
Winter. I couldn=92t go to the
funeral. I was confined - mentally -
>
physically....besides I=92d only met him once.
He was playing with fir=
e.
>
... Playing in the dark.
>=20
>
Jim Morrison turns into Smokey Beat and his breath burns a National Par=
k
> in
outer Mongolia somewhere between 18th Century princesses in phone
>
booths striking the secret code of the rapture like it=92s something wo=
rth
>
waiting for.
>=20
>
Burn down the house. Burn down the
neighborhood. Universal Implosion
>
and my Mom appears on a Fire Truck, the Fire Lady she=92s called and sh=
e
>
tells me not to play with matches but is she afraid of fire because of
>
her Southern Baptist Hell-fire and damnation upbringing. Fire is not
>
evil. Fire is essential. It is the spark of life The burning candle
>
that turns body into ashes so that it can return to dust.
>=20
> To
Firewalk.
>=20
>
Can you imagine Firewalking? I have
friends who have done it. They
>
have physically firewalked - not a scar on them. But we tend to only
>
see the physiological as literal and I must look deep into your soul an=
d
>
ask
>=20
>
have you ever Firewalked metaphysically?
>=20
>
The FireWalk through the mind. The
FireWalk through the soul. I have
>
and there are scars but I can=92t say I regret the journey. From the e=
nd
> of
the journey one sees Chaos and Order meet for
tea over a white
>
picket fence; Time evaporates like so much spilt milk in Tulsa at Oral
>
Roberts University; Reason and Insanity
push and shove / fight and kic=
k
> /
one dischordant tone for another until the pure sound - the sirens of
>
beauty and truth hits my ear drum -- thump, thump, thump....Om, Om,
>
Om... and the child in me looks up at the giant and asks if the Circle
>
Will Be Unbroken? and the giant smiles a reassuring smile as he kicks m=
e
>
back down the beanstalk.
>=20
>
Landing at the bottom I see the whole world anew and I smile and kick
>
myself for climbing the beanstalk in search of something when I found
>
the answers by landing on a patch of clover in my own backyard - just
>
like Dorothy. They say seek and you
shall find
>=20
>
but I find that more comes when I want not and seek not when I am at
>
peace with myself I am at peace with it all.
>=20
> The bumper
sticker
> on my mind during my
> FireWalk
reads:
>=20
> =93Think Universally
- Act Intrapersonally=94.
>=20
> It
is a saying I heard one day. It came
from the Mississippi River wit=
h
>
Jim and Huck rafting by the Casino Rock Island and I tried to wave and
>
tell them that they should stop here rather than going downstream to
>
slave country and ....
>=20
>
Huck looked at me, stared me in the eye, puffed on a corncob pipe and
>
spoke:
>=20
>
=93You=92ve got to face your worst fears to overcome them. Are you afr=
aid
> of
insanity?=94
>=20
> I
said no and stepped through the door .... now the doorway has vanishe=
d
>
and the divide between Reason and Madness is bridged. I hope you enjoy
>
some images of the FireWalk through Madness.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:36:02 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beats' pseudonyms.
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970623082238.47066A-100000@srv1.freenet.calg
ary.ab.ca>
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Derek
A. Beaulieu writes:
>
>as
to the identity of poor carlo marx lost in the weeds:
>well
our own allen ginsberg.
>the
secrets out
>there
gonna be trouble.
>keep
yr trenchcoat on yr fedora down low
>derek
>
&
jack kerouac changed the pseudonyms in each book,
a
comedy seen thru the eyes of Ti Jean, (big sur),
btw
only Lorenz Monsanto (Ferlinghetti) was the same,
other
changedcuz'book trade matter
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * be beet *
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:37:41 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Help the beaten
In-Reply-To: <33AF2ED9.91275D8A@scsn.net>
Mime-Version:
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Tom,
u can
see almost everything 'bout yr questions at web site
(Electronic
Poetry Center)
http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/connects/lists.htm
hope
this help,
---
yrs
Rinaldo
* a not competent beat *
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 08:10:09 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Drugs & Spontaneity
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.970623114237.2276A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version:
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>>
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>nexttime.
the ACT, to me, is more important that the product (in my word
>w(a)(o)nderings).
>different
ways of approaching wrds.
>same
core tho.
_______
revision
or tightening up structure is as much an ACT as first thought
first
word splatter/shower out of head. and sculpture is what i see as the
final
part of my works when i put them in their place on the page.
mc
who
really would like to be gonzo poet rather than 'confessional' have
decided
to kick that damn catholic girl outta my head. so auto bio is
probably
more accurate 'label' i dont write about ideas i write about my
life
and all its little adventures....
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:41:32 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: The Proud Highway
In-Reply-To:
<970623204745_-327538483@emout14.mail.aol.com>
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On Mon,
23 Jun 1997, Howard Park wrote:
>
The book, "The Proud Highway" looks interesting.
Over on
the bohemian-l they're having a summer reading group talk on Pound,
and
someone (Marie C) had expressed on talking about this one as an
alternate.
It seems maybe that this list is the better place for such a
discussion
(and Marie's on it too) so I'll repost here my thoughts after
reading
the first chapter (year 1955):
I've
recently become completely immersed in this book. These letters are as
good as
many of Hunter's fine prose works, and reading them chronologically
serves
to illuminate the years just before and during the time he "makes
it."
A valuable document indeed.
I
haven't read all of the Hunter bios that are out there, but the
introduction
to this book is the first time I've seen it spelled out in
print
that Hunter's shenanigans are almost completely fictitious. Not that
most
would believe some of it, but I've always had trouble discerning where
the
line between his fiction and reality is drawn -- well, yeah, as if there
_were_
any "objective reality" anyway.
m
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:47:12 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Role of the Poet
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
runner911 wrote:
>
>
>
> At 12:17 AM -0700 6/24/97, RACE --- wrote:
>
>
>
> > The Poet is a man(sic) whom faculty X is naturally more developed
than
>
> > in most people. While most of
us are ruthlessly "cutting out" whole
>
> > areas of perception, thus impoverishing our mental lives, the poet
>
> > retains the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of
the
>
> > world "out there."
>
>
>
> you're describing a middle aged man, fat with glasses, insomniac, drug
>
> dependant, all around asshole.
don't forget these kind of fucking poets!
>
> every word is loud and obscene.
vulger, foul, distorted. a last
breath
>
> before a vowel...aaaaaaah. that
was it. <<hehehe>>
>
>
>
> oh, my inner child is screaming, "oh, my hair has been cut too short,
I
>
> must drive to Cleveland and pick up beer hall chicks...." At this level,
>
> everybody is poetic. trains of
thought, which you site as being hauled off
>
> en masse by some anti-x faculty. I
think I went to school there. fluent
>
> in that yada yada way of talk.
yadya yada daya dyadya. UClA
>
>
>
> and no attention span. That's the
kind of poet you're describing. Is that
>
> what you meant??
>
>
>
> cheers, Douglas
>
>
>
> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ summer
>
> save it, just keep it off my wave is
>
> -- ("my wave,"
soundgarden) here
>
>
actually, the answer would be an
EMPHATIC no. The kind of poet being
>
described in that quotation is the poet as magician and most easily
>
understood as a word alchemist. if one
accepts the power of symbols in
>
shaping reality, the poet's ability to Perceive and then stir the
>
symbolic soup is a Real form of contemporary alchemy. What you were
>
referring to is probably a real creature but my hunch is that the
>
alchemist can with some effort overcome the population of these middle
>
aged gentlement in terms of pure magic.
>
>
david rhaesa
> salina,
Kansas
I agree
with David's alchemist concept, and the idea that "the poet
retains
the faculty to be suddenly delighted by the sheer REALITY of the
world
'out there.' It actually leads to an
awesome attention span,
because
one is suddenly attentive to the smallest aspect of daily life as
a part
of the greater whole of the universe.
Sometimes that leads to
screaming
but only when encountering those who have limited their
perception
of the poet. Essentially the poet is
god, creating out of the
unknown,
speaking truth that transforms the daily experience.
DC