=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:29:05 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody, Part III

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>

> Joyce is a good analogy.  Who would read Ulysses or Finnegans Wake?  >

> Answer:a lot of people.

>

> I think it does need to be seen as part of Kerouac's oeurve.  Yet it

> can

> stand alone, but like Ulyssess and Finnegans wake was not meant to only

> stand alone.

>

> It tries to do more than only tell a story but also to capture an

>essence

> (many essences) as well.

>

> It is also a great catalog.

>

 

I'm not sure yet what I think about this book standing alone.  I think

it's best to be familiar with Kerouac before reading it.  In the same

line of thought, I don't think many people would make it through

Finnegans Wake without being familiar with Joyce and having read his

earlier stuff, especially Ulysses.  As it is even some people who love

Ulysses find Finnegans Wake beyond them.  What I would like to address is

whether Kerouac had in mind his own version of a Joycean work here.  The

similarity in the out of time material is striking, but there are huge

differences in writing methods.  Joyce was a mastermind when it came to

construction.  He revised endlessly.  He wanted the reader to think about

every single word in and out of consciousness.  I think Kerouac often

attempts this kind of mastermind plan but the spontaneous prose throws

him off. He's constantly playing with the idea but can't quite pull it

off.  The highness of the characters in part three is quite a different

kind of consciousness as compared to dream-like unconscious images that

take things out of time and place.  I keep hoping for more of a flow

between the parts. It seems like the visions should flow without total

disconnection at any point.

DC

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:05:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Neil

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Someone came close to touching on this, but why is Neal the hero?  To me

Jack is the hero.  He is the one that actually does it.  I never find my

self liking the image Jack projects of Neal.  He would not be very

likable, and is a person in action.   But for what or why.  He must have

been a very charasmatic person when you were with him.  But his actions

tend not to be likable.

 

I wonder if WSB, Charles or others that knew him found him to be a

"hero" type, or just a hustler.

 

I always saw a homosexual type attachment, and a longing to be willing

to do what Neal did.  Jack talks about it, writes it, but push come to

shove, he would go down and buy a ticket rather than ride the box car.

So, there is a desire to be "real" instead of a writer.  Dylan said

somewhere he wished he'd been a doctor so he could have done some good

in the world.

 

But, Jack is the prophet.  He took all he saw and learned and turned it

into something bigger stretching it out to include every leave.  He even

pays homage to Thomas Wolfe in the middle of the food scene.  So when he

is writing, his confidence flows and grows.

 

VoC is his attempt to record reality just the way he saw it.  It is

worthy.

 

Peace,

 

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:10:18 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Cody ---- the letter

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that is Quite the letter.

 

gotta wonder though.  if i got that letter in the mail part of me would

be saying:

 

"that fish has caught the bait for life.  he'll do anything for me now!"

 

devil in me i guess.

 

jack's friendship with Cody just seems so naive.

 

my glass house is shattering around me as i type.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:15:21 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      HST

 

Finally caught up with HST  site.  This was who my  new friend helping me

with my mss went to see in NYC? Warmed over edge. The interview with P. J.

O'Rourke  was cute. P.J. used to sit in prof. Coleman's class  across from me

all pimply and afraid to  say anything about the beats or respond to whuts

happenin in the academe.  Now the profs take him for gospel right next to New

Yorker , Look, Ma  I'm hip.Tired of this dated crap. Reading Carl Watson's

Empire of the Birds tonight. He said the only religion  left is "Be Careful".

 At least he's current. Who wanted to compare Poe? My, my, can't get by.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:22:30 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cody, Part III

 

In a message dated 97-07-07 22:28:32 EDT, you write:

 

<<  It seems like the visions should flow without total

 disconnection at any point. >>

Just a thread

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:35:48 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody ---- the letter

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>RACE --- wrote:

>

> that is Quite the letter.

>

> gotta wonder though.  if i got that letter in the mail part of me would

> be saying:

>

> "that fish has caught the bait for life.  he'll do anything for me

> now!"

>

> devil in me i guess.

>

> jack's friendship with Cody just seems so naive.

>

> my glass house is shattering around me as i type.

>

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

I agree about Jack's friendship kinda being naive.

 

look at page 39:

"anybody who knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry

about in my secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the

sorrows of time and personality,, and can therefore on all levels make it

all the way with me...I'm completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who

loves and digs your greatness completely."

 

What more can you possibly say to someone?  Was Jack's trust ever

misplaced? There were a couple places in OTR where Jack said, 'I'm done

with you,' but he always came back.  I do think, as I said before, that

to some extent Jack's will to live is intertwined with Neal's sense of

life. Then again, maybe growing up in America later than these guys,

makes us see things more corruptly???

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:28:47 -0400

Reply-To:     Andrew Szymczyk <trent@JANE.PENN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andrew Szymczyk <trent@JANE.PENN.COM>

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would the listowner please contact me privately or could a

beat-l member please send me an address where the

listowner could be reached.  it's imperative that i get ahold

of him.

 

 

                                        thanks,

                                        andrew

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:56:35 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cody ---- the letter

 

not only more corruptly, but more cynically and selfishly.  there is a beauty

in loving in this pure and innocent way that perhaps none of us are capable of

any more. and the feeling derived from it is unparalleled.

 

innocence was something that greatly appealed to JK, it seems to me:  the way

he refers to young girls and what seems to thrill him about them, his

comparison of the "Negro cat" in the subway (pg 19, my edition) to

Dostoyevsky's Prince Myshkin ( i can't think of a more endearing, sweet,

innocent, prophet-like character in literature, at least not at this moment).

 

and, in fact, isn't it that very innocence/romanticism that we adore in JK in

the first place?  what is more intriguing than a great mind blended with a

heart also capable of sheer simplicity of feeling?

 

and doesn't hero worship require a certain innocence?  JK knew NC's many

flaws, but chose to love the greatness in him, perhaps as his alterego.

 

ciao,

sherri

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane Carter

Sent:   Monday, July 07, 1997 11:35 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: Cody ---- the letter

 

>RACE --- wrote:

>

> that is Quite the letter.

>

> gotta wonder though.  if i got that letter in the mail part of me would

> be saying:

>

> "that fish has caught the bait for life.  he'll do anything for me

> now!"

>

> devil in me i guess.

>

> jack's friendship with Cody just seems so naive.

>

> my glass house is shattering around me as i type.

>

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

I agree about Jack's friendship kinda being naive.

 

look at page 39:

"anybody who knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry

about in my secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the

sorrows of time and personality,, and can therefore on all levels make it

all the way with me...I'm completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who

loves and digs your greatness completely."

 

What more can you possibly say to someone?  Was Jack's trust ever

misplaced? There were a couple places in OTR where Jack said, 'I'm done

with you,' but he always came back.  I do think, as I said before, that

to some extent Jack's will to live is intertwined with Neal's sense of

life. Then again, maybe growing up in America later than these guys,

makes us see things more corruptly???

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:11:28 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS

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AND PS:  OK POETS of BEAT-LIST, -- LISTEN UP!

 

the snails have us running for cover

it's time to organize and develop our own channels

I'm still trying to figure out who is out there

in the 200+ of us on this list

 

as the beat-list introduction says,

let's talk about opportunities to publish

let's talk about beat poetics, the beat process

poets we like and why  <<loved that vs-Elliot thread!>>

the visual and sound arts of these writers and [[people

the mistakes they made and why certain poems are important

 

and if we're gonna stay and be civil, beat-list poets

let's keep our posts on topic.  right?

or damn straight close right on, near it!!

maybe stick to a universal thread title or two

[[e.g., freshman debates, dear diarie, notes to myself

that can be easily marked as deletable, scrap heap, expungeable

 

 

our process of being beat is different than an academic approach

it takes practice and focused energy to bring our shoes closer

we have to be able to make mistakes and stand by them, publically

to flaunt our foibles, our speed chases, our random pastimes

our life in the beat molde, the "wanna be beat" list

isn't a half bad idea after all beating breathing beating hard

w/kerouacs,  ginsberg,  burroughs.  patti smith. etc.

 

I've thought about this a lot.

have obsessed about it really,

honesty, probably too much

but I depend on this list

and the poets, friends, and <<ahem>> scholars therein

for the exchange of punctuation, prose styles, and beat licks

that gets me up in the morning

 

[[for the visions of cody

 

----- I look forward to getting off this thread ========

----- sorry to have taken up your precious time ========

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:50:06 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      ceasefire #3

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                im'

                pathfinder

                ranger

                sojourner

 

                im' thinking

                Shhh    Shhh

 

                Uhmm    Uhmm

                is there life?

 

                is there

                intellingent

                life?

 

                im' back

 

                my name is

                sojourner

 

                Shhh    Shhh

                Uhmm    Uhmm

 

                Shhh    Shhh

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:52:14 -0400

Reply-To:     Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      cody II

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not much discussion about cody part 2; wonder if it is because there is a

sense of been there/read that before. between the timeless geography of the

soul of part I and the densely unmitigated dialogue of burp and fart and

scratch of part III?

anyhoo:

there is a longish quote on pgs 98-100 of macgraw hill edition: from which

i will snip and snap ,[all of elipses mine]  it seems to me the heart of

part II and perhaps the heart of JK always in his books: (and once again we

are in the world of colors, primarily but not exclusively brown. passage is

his experience as signing on for merchant marine as he continues to have

visions of cody having visions)! (i've snipped the merchant marine reality

to focus in on JK's perceptions of realities:

 

brown halls of men--now by god many hours and events later i am finally

entrenched in the vision that i re-discovered my soul with, the 'crwoded

events of men' only now it's me, myself smack in it....I saw 'brown bar'

not in jest, red neons or pink ones too shine in the smoke and reflect off

dark browned panels, the beer is brown, table tops, the lights are white

but embrowned, the tile floor too ....now what i'm going to do is this,

think things over one by one blowing on the vsions of them and also

excitedly discussing them as with friends as i did last night joyously

drunk in the west end.....

(lots of brown ale, brown sighns white capped seamen's halls)

,,, now i'm going to be interested in these things al my life but in order

to really involve myself as  a man on the other level of man-to-man

communication i'm also going to talk about theset things with people if i

can, like for instance Deni's beautiful story last night...i'm going to

talk about thesse things with guys but the main thing i suppose will be

this lifelong monologue which  is begun in my mind-lifelong complete

contemplation--what ilse on earth do i really know unless i'm depriving

myself of kinds of knowledge that would bring out those qualities in

me....--last night in the west end bar was mad(can't think fast enough)(do

need a recorder)...then i could keep the most complete record in the world

which in itself could be divided into twenty massive and pretty interesting

volumes of tapes describing activities everywhere and excitements and

thoughts of mad valuable me and it would really have a shape but a crazy

bit shape yet just as logical as a novel by proust because i do keep

harkening back though i might be nervous on the mike and even tell too

much)....now events of this moment are so mad that of course i can't keep

up but worse they're as though they were fond memories that from my

peaceful hacienda or proust-bed i was trying to recall in toto but couldn't

because like the  real world so vast, so delugingly vast, i wish i god had

made me vaster myself--i wish i had ten personalities, one hundred golden

brains, far more ports than are ports, more energy than the river, but i

must struggle to live it all, and on foot, and in these little crepesole

shoes,  ALL of it or give up completely.

____

what i see here is JK's edgy  am i hero/am i narrator thread which is seen

more clearly here than in OTR.also,  in the face of the visionary cody, he

wishes he were bigger smarter faster ... which i noted in part I: the

dreams in which cody were not center of attention, cody letting others

talk, etc. among other things, like seeing his work like proust, and the

recorder wish brings us to the infamous burp fart space out tape of part III

more to come, but the sunshine beckons

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:54:31 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Neal

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> Someone came close to touching on this, but why is Neal the hero?  To

>me

> Jack is the hero.  He is the one that actually does it.  I never find

>my

> self liking the image Jack projects of Neal.  He would not be very

> likable, and is a person in action.   But for what or why.  He must

>have

> been a very charasmatic person when you were with him.  But his actions

> tend not to be likable.

>

> I wonder if WSB, Charles or others that knew him found him to be a

> "hero" type, or just a hustler.

>

 

I think there's no doubt that both Kerouac and Ginsberg saw Neal as a

hero, way beyond the homosexual attachment kind of thing.  Ginsberg

writes in Howl, "NC, secret hero of these poems,"  and here in VOC, the

whole work is set up with Neal as the hero.  But it's true, if you set

the lives together, it brings up some questions:  What did Neal

accomplish in his life?  What did Ginsberg and Kerouac accomplish in

their's in comparison?  No doubt if none of these guys had met Neal, they

would have still been writers, but how much different?  In many ways,

early on, they wrote about life through the experience of being around

Neal living life.  To some people Neal was a hustler, in every sense of

the word, but I have often thought it was in a good way, a way to get

what he wanted, needed without hurting anyone else.  I agree, it's time

to hear from some people that knew Neal personally, and some that have

read stuff that Neal wrote.

DC

> VoC is his attempt to record reality just the way he saw it.  It is

> worthy.

>

> Peace,

>

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

>

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:39:46 -0700

Reply-To:     Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      rumors of my death

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Dear Beat-L Friends:      July 7, 1997

 

        As Mark Twain said, "Rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

        I'm back briefly because it appalls me to see the kind of lies that

just got printed here by one Ms. Diane De Rooy, in my absence.

        According to Ms. DeRooy, quoting Ms. Mayo, "there is nothing

original in this [MEMORY BABE] collection" at U Mass Lowell.  According to

Ms. De Rooy, Mr. Rod Anstee agrees totally with this.

        Oh no, nothing original?  What would you call 3 drafts of Memory

Babe, in my own handwriting and typewriting?  What would you call THOUSANDS

of pages of my own handwritten notes?  What would you call 100 letters

written to me by the likes of Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Burroughs, Snyder,

Holmes, Carolyn Cassady, et al. (in their handwriting and typewriting NOT

XEROX)?  60 of those have been stolen, but about 40 still remain (as far as

I know) in the collection.

        What would you call 300 original interviews, taped firsthand with

300 different people?  Not copies of the interviews, but the ORIGINAL TAPES

THEMSELVES?

        All this is not original material?

        Now bethink yourself (as they used to say).  If Ms. De Rooy and Ms.

Mayo and (apparently) Mr. Anstee can lie about the content of the

collection, might they not also be capable of lying about the fact that

people are being prevented from viewing and listening to it?

        How can these people lie so baldly?  Is it just because Nicosia got

offline for a few weeks to try to get some work done?

        Since I obviously can't keep up with the Beat-List right now on a

regular basis, and still make my writing commitments (Veterans book and

autobiography for CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS), I can only appear here

sporadically, but if anyone has any questions when such outrageous claims

are made, please feel free to email me directly.  Dirk Vulgate need not apply.

        Thanks and my best to everyone, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:34:22 +0200

Reply-To:     Per Kjellin <kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Per Kjellin <kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE>

Subject:      411

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Did you found God on the Four11?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:55:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

Subject:      [Fwd: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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My post that lead to Lisa's flame.

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Message-ID: <33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>

Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:28:21 -0400

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: Mail to BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.

X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Has anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.  I ran a 411 search

and turned up nothing.  I ran one on my email address and got me.  So, I

am very curious about this.  I know that there have been phantom posts

from aol before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out.  If Diane is

a real person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious

and the timing makes it even more so.  I apologize, for an off topic

post.

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

--------------8D5FDB9EB84469087559EB16--

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:33:16 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What

 

Dear Michael:

 

Your discussion of the baggage we carry as to WHO is writing something,

rather than what has been written itself, really hits a chord.  Your example

of Ginsberg  reminds me of the January 1994 reading we attended, prior to

which we first met each other in the autograph line at Shaman Drum Bookshop.

 I can honestly say that his reading of HOWL would have riveted and inspired

me even if I had not known anything about who was reading it or the whole

history and mythology surrounding it and its creator.  It is still as freshly

groundbreaking as ever.  But, if you recall, he then launched into other

poems, some of which were of the "homoerotic" nature you mentioned.  One in

particular was like a proctoscope's-eye-view of his rectum and its adventures

(a personalized take on WSB's "talking asshole" routine?), which I found

tasteless, exhibitionistic and very uninspired in its language, especially

compared to his great earlier poems.  This was definitely an example of him

getting away with something because he was the world-famous AG whose audience

carried all the baggage that went along with that.  I'm sure he was quite

consciously aware of what he was doing and was having fun with his unique

status as a provocateur-institution hybrid.

 

I am always haunted by the concern that I'm skipping over worthy items simply

because I don't know about them and their creators aren't famous.  Like your

recent post about music, there could indeed be artists out there the caliber

of and going forward from those Giants of the past whom I still haven't

assimilated completely or yet recovered from.  It's a forlorn cliche repeated

throughout human history- so many great people from each era go nearly or

completely unrecognized until long after they've gone, those getting all the

attention during their frustrated lifetimes now the ones justly forgotten.

 Van Gogh owed money to the subject of his painting that recently fetched

$53,000,000, and so on ad infinitum.

 

This also dovetails with a recent post by Diane Carter about particular works

within and outside of the context of the authors' whole ouvre, using JK's VOC

and Joyce's FINNEGANS WAKE as examples.  How do they stand on their own vs.

within the larger context and evolution?  As you know, I'm particularly

devoted to WSB among all the Beat writers.  But what if I encountered one of

his '60's cut-up novels in a vacuum with no context as to how he arrived at

it, what came before or after?  In a case like this, understanding of the

larger context is critical, without it puzzlement and rejection are almost

inevitable.

 

Well, I'm really starting to get into this List- you may have encountered

some of my public posts, I've come in from the cold, having just written

one-on-one until recently.  It's a great exercise and potentially has no end,

I'm constantly toggled as with your post that compelled me to write this.  A

fascinating intellectual exchange and a galloping addiction- will I end up

losing my family and business and end up in the cybergutter, unkempt and

glued to the screen, still tapping the keys when the power is turned off?

 

I will call you soon for a conversation in the antiquated phone medium,

unless you Beat me to it.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:48:18 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199707081342260088@msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Some late night idiot wrote:

 

>

> AND PS:  OK POETS of BEAT-LIST, -- LISTEN UP!

>

> the snails have us running for cover

> it's time to organize and develop our own channels

> I'm still trying to figure out who is out there

> in the 200+ of us on this list

 

as someone suggested backchannel, perhaps I do need therapy.  <laugh>  Am

thinking I should just keep my mouth quiet and wait a while, see what

happens.  get some reading done.  So taking a couple of breathes, and a few

steps back, let me apologize if I've offended anyone, and please send

related messages backchannel, if possible.

 

thanx, Douglas

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:59:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: 411

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

No, but I found him on page 40 of James Joyce's "Ulysses":

 

        What about what?  What else were they invented for?

        Reading two pages apiece of seven books every night, eh?  I was young.

You bowed to yourself in the mirror, stepping forward to applause

earnestly, striking face.  Hurray for the God-damned idiot!  Hray!

No-one saw: tell no-one.  Books you were going to write with letters for

titles.  Have you read this F?  O yes, but I prefer Q.  Yes, but W is

wonderful.  O yes, W.  Remember your epiphanies on green oval leaves,

deeply deep, copies to be sent if you died to all the great libraries of

the world, including Alexandria?  Someone was to read them there after a

few thousand years, a mahamanvantara.  Pico della Mirandola like.  Ay,

very like a whale.  When one reads these strange pages of one long gone

one feels that one is at one with one who once....

        The grainy sand had gone from under his feet.  [...]

 

Douglas  <<professional loon>>

 

"the map is not the territory"                  babu@electriciti.com

  (Alfred Korzybski)                    www.electriciti.com/babu/

 

>----------

>From:  Per Kjellin[SMTP:kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE]

>Sent:  Thursday, July 03, 1997 12:34 PM

>To:    BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:       411

>

>Did you found God on the Four11?

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:02:59 -0400

Reply-To:     Ddrooy@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      My reply

 

I'm not going to debate Gerry Nicosia here on the list. I can't see any

compelling reason why there should be another polarizing flame war like the

previous one.

 

Nor am I going to defend my research into the story I'm currently writing. I

will continue my research, in person and over the telephone, and if I am fed

alleged "misinformation" by any interview subjects, I will allow for fair

response from dissenting parties.

 

My interest has always been in writing an objective accounting of a very

emotional issue. For the record, I don't have any intention at this time of

including information about Gerry's archive at all. That's not my story, and

it's already been reported upon by others.

 

I don't profess to be an expert on the contents of that collection. If Martha

Mayo is not being truthful, that's for Gerry and Martha to work out. I have

no reason to trust my life to either of them.

 

I posted that partial interview to the BEAT-L list simply to demonstrate what

sort of information one can get when going to a "source," rather than solely

listening to emotional hyperbole. Martha Mayo confirmed what Rod Anstee had

asked Gerry to explain: that there are, in fact, photocopies of letters from

authors which came from other collections, in Gerry's research archive.

 

I certainly welcome your questions and comments, challenging and informative.

I have no interest in this particular archive issue, except as a footnote to

the larger story of the disposition of jack kerouac's writings. All I ask is

that people contact me directly, and don't use the BEAT-L list to argue this

thing.

 

Again, please know that you are all welcome to comment or send feedback to me

at ddrooy@aol.com or membabe@aol.com.

 

Diane De Rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:37:14 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Neal

 

Kerouac certainly paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a

mistake to only focus on Neal Cassady, the human being.  Kerouac is

turning Neal into a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his

life.  Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the wrong question to

ask.  A more appropriate question is what does Dean Moriarty or Cody

stand for.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:50:23 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Neil

 

Bentz:

 

You wrote:

 

"I wonder if WSB, Charles or others that knew him found (Neal Cassady) to be

a "hero" type, or just a hustler."

 

>From what I' recall reading in biographies, interviews and the thinly guised

biographical works (including ON THE ROAD itself), WSB was wary of and

annoyed by NC during the time the Beats were living what became their legend.

 He protectively warned the younger Kerouac to be careful, like a concerned

older brother, about the friend he was so infatuated with and who inspired

his works.  He instinctively perceived NC as a moocher, con man and thief,

and was not happy to have him as a guest, such as when he came along with

Kerouac and co. in early 1949 to visit WSB and his ill-fated family outside

New Orleans, as recounted in OTR.

 

Of course, it's no big secret that NC came from a deprived and delinquent

background and that this was an integral part of his own legend as

mythologized by JK-  his car thefts, etc.  From what I have read so far,

especially in OFF THE ROAD, the memoirs of his widow Carolyn, he was a

complex and many-faceted personality, with pronounced conflicts, in the

"beautiful loser" vein, a reckless trouble-magnet, romantic, family & steady

job lover and tragic martyr all in one.  Artistically, he had much more of an

impact as a subject of JK,  Allen Ginsberg & Ken Kesey/Tom Wolfe than from

his own fragmented and small output.  A disturbing phenomenon indispensable

to the Beats' development but ultimately consumed by the very legend they

cultivated and his own demons.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:55:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject:      HOWL question--help!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I have a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City

Lights Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.

 

Towards the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:

 

"with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"

 

my students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.

One wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right

letter to asterisk ratio.

 

do the asterisks appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???

who placed them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?

 

thanks for any info you can provide...anyone out there.

 

Steve R. Smith

Department of English

Pacific University

Forest Grove, OR

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:13:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.]

In-Reply-To:  <33C254E3.3A72AFE6@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Was this really relevent?

You could not send this to the person who requested it directly?

 

of course not.

 

 

 

 

At 10:55 AM 7/8/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>My post that lead to Lisa's flame.

>

>

>--

>

>Peace,

>

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclawMessage-ID: <33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>

>Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:28:21 -0400

>From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>

>Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz kirby

>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)

>MIME-Version: 1.0

>To: Mail to BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Subject: suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.

>X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>

>Has anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy.  I ran a 411 search

>and turned up nothing.  I ran one on my email address and got me.  So, I

>am very curious about this.  I know that there have been phantom posts

>from aol before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out.  If Diane is

>a real person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious

>and the timing makes it even more so.  I apologize, for an off topic

>post.

>

>

>--

>

>Peace,

>

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>

--

 

Lisa M. Rabey

Simunye Design

http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye

---------------------------------

words...1000's of words...wrapped together like wire

how easy it would be to hate you, and yet that is all

I can show you. Nothing lasts forever. -me

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:30:16 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PTX.3.91.970708104841.15940A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

>I have a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City

>Lights Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.

>

>Towards the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:

>

>"with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"

>

>my students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.

>One wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right

>letter to asterisk ratio.

 

It is "fucked" in the original drafts (see p.31 of *Howl:  Facsimile

Edition*).  But asterisks (only 3) are inserted in a later draft (see p.

42).  Every published copy I have seen uses the asterisks--and, as you

note, uses exactly 6 of them.

 

On p. 131 of the Facsimile Edition, Ginsberg says in his annotations to

that line:  "Author replaced letters withe asterisks in final draft of poem

to introduce appropriate element of uncertainty."

 

Tony

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Oh, mechanical men.  They walk around, they set the table

and don't say nothin'.  They bring you your underwear and

they put you to bed.  They take out a cigar and smoke cigars.

They stand there and watch you.  Mechanical men.  Christ, they

wash windows, shovel snow, give you a cigar, put out the lights.

And then they wave Good Night."

--Larry Green

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:45:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

Comments: To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PTX.3.91.970708104841.15940A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

steve

as far as i know the asterisks appear in all editions, in fact the reading

of howl that is on the "holy soul jelly roll" box set, hasginsberg read

the line as "with mother finally asterisked, and the last fantastic book

flung out". im sure that after the obscenity trial, and the approval of

so much of what is said and the way it is stated in howl, that the ******

is not a censoring job, but rather the way it was written. ( and those

asterisks,AS asterisks could be more along the lines of "silenced" or

"marginalized" as opposed to necessarily an "obscenity" - use the

asterisks as symbols for asterisks and what they do, as opposed to

asterisks as replacements...?)

just a few thoughts, as i have wondering the same about that strange, ut

of character punctuation, in howl.

yrs

derek

 

On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

 

>

> I have a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City

> Lights Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.

>

> Towards the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:

>

> "with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"

>

> my students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.

> One wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right

> letter to asterisk ratio.

>

> do the asterisks appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???

> who placed them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?

>

> thanks for any info you can provide...anyone out there.

>

> Steve R. Smith

> Department of English

> Pacific University

> Forest Grove, OR

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:49:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Neal

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997070813405164@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

bill

certainly a very conscious effort i think on behalf of several beat

authors (esp. ginsberg) in creating myth. the repitition of stories and

tales, the idolizing of freinds and situations thru lit & poetry - almost

brings to mind greek & oral storytelling. creation of myth thru repitition

of stories, passed around the fire and thru everyday life. replacing the

myth of "america the just" (or whatevr) with myth of the individual ad the

group. creation of the XX C paul bunyan & his big blue ox?

beat as american mythmaking?

yrs

derek

 

On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

 

>

> Kerouac certainly paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a

> mistake to only focus on Neal Cassady, the human being.  Kerouac is

> turning Neal into a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his

> life.  Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the wrong question to

> ask.  A more appropriate question is what does Dean Moriarty or Cody

> stand for.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:58:53 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: My reply then patricia adds 2cents

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

>

> I'm not going to debate Gerry Nicosia here on the list. I can't see any

 compelling reason why there should be another polarizing flame war like the

 previous one.

> patricia writes

I did not find geralds response to you as a flame, i saw it as a

resonable presentation of what was contained in his archive. i found

mayos assertion that no original material being there rather bizarre.

d wrote

> Nor am I going to defend my research into the story I'm currently writing. I

 will continue my research, in person and over the telephone, and if I am fed

 alleged "misinformation" by any interview subjects, I will allow for fair

 response from dissenting parties.My interest has always been in writing an

 objective accounting of a very> emotional issue. For the record, I don't have

 any intention at this time of

 including information about Gerry's archive at all. That's not my

story, and it's already been reported upon by others. I don't profess to

be an expert on the contents of that collection. If Martha Mayo is not

being truthful, that's for Gerry and Martha to work out. I have no

reason to trust my life to either of them.

 

patricia writes

you posted one side of an account of geralds archives to this public

forum. You ve trusted some of your credibility as a reporter to how you

report and what.  i don not mean to be insulting i feel you were hoping

to balance some of the information.

> d wrote

> I posted that partial interview to the BEAT-L list simply to demonstrate what

 sort of information one can get when going to a "source," rather than solely

 listening to emotional hyperbole.

 

patricia writes

i hope that the phrase emotional hyperbole is not in refernce to gerald

in regard to his own archives.

d wrote

 Martha Mayo confirmed what Rod Anstee had asked Gerry to explain: that

there are, in fact, photocopies of letters from authors which came from

other collections, in Gerry's research archive. I certainly welcome your

questions and comments, challenging and informative. I have no interest

in this particular archive issue, except as a footnote to the larger

story of the disposition of jack kerouac's writings. All I ask is that

people contact me directly, and don't use the BEAT-L list to argue this

thing.

 

patricia writes

i felt no desire to take this off the beat list since it is list

related.  You stated that mayo said that there were no original material

in the archives and then you restate that somehow that was only a

confirmation of rod anstees assertions. I do not mean this post as a

flame but to post to the list such personal conclusions and then beg no

list postings in response underestimates the population you are

addressing.. I plan to stay civil but open. I have no knowledge of miss

mayo or gerald as persons that would sway me but the history of my own

writing leads me to think  no original material in gn's archives isn't

likely.

> d wrote

> Again, please know that you are all welcome to comment or send feedback to me

> at ddrooy@aol.com or membabe@aol.com.

>

> Diane De Rooy

 patricia writes

i sincerely hope that no war results from this as the last one was

creepy and boring. but i am uncomfortable with  off list clarifications

of what one really meant when speaking of a third party and his

reputation

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:01:47 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

Comments: To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

>

> I have a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City

> Lights Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.

>

> Towards the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:

>

> "with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"

>

> my students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.

> One wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right

> letter to asterisk ratio.

>

> do the asterisks appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???

> who placed them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?

 

That's a very interesting question. There's no mention of it in the

Dharma Lion biography.

 

It's a curious little omission, cos all through the rest of Howl

Ginsberg is uncensored ("who let themselves be fucked in the ass",

"vision of ultimate cunt and come eluding the last gyzm of

consciousness").

 

I have three recordings of Ginsberg reading Howl...on the Holy Soul

Jelly Roll version (Berkeley '56) he says "fucked"; on the Kronos cd

('96) he says "asterisked"; and on the original Howl lp ('59) there's

nothing, just a sloppy edit (ruining his vocal rhythm) where he

undoubtedly said "fucked."

 

Could it be that Allen, in this incredible purging of his soul, censored

this line himself out of respect for his mother Naomi, who was still

alive at the time? But if that was the reason, why did he say "fucked"

at the public readings? I think in the end he probably put the asterisks

in for his father's benefit. Louis hated Allen's frequent use of

profanity (he was outraged over the language in Kaddish, mainly the

"pubic beard" line) and with this being Allen's first major published

work, Allen probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling

confident enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there

to scrutinize him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in

the '96 recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the

decision that the asterisks should remain where they were and he

wouldn't associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,

with gutter language.

 

That's just me speculating, I could be wrong!

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:17:30 -0700

Reply-To:     B medeiros <brianpm@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         B medeiros <brianpm@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Regarding the asterisks in "Howl", I was thinking that there may be a

linguistic influence.  The asterisk mark in linguistics signals a

grammatically incorrect passage/fragment, perhaps these asterisks are

marking "mother" as being incorrect, or her actions as incorrect.  Then

again, this Linguistic convention may not have been adopted until after AG

wrote "Howl."

 

Just giving options,

Brian Medeiros

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:42:21 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

In-Reply-To:  <199707081917.MAA28789@uclink4.berkeley.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I think the Howl asterisks are funny -- here he lets it all hang out, pages

and pages of obscene smut (oh whoops they proved it had literary value,

right?) and there's this one line no dirty word there just ****** who knows

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:34:06 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Neal

 

well put, Neal/Cody takes the place of the icons used since the dawn of time

to explain who and what we are and what kind of greatness lies in Everyman,

regardless of how "human" he is.

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan

Sent:   Tuesday, July 08, 1997 10:37 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Neal

 

Kerouac certainly paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a

mistake to only focus on Neal Cassady, the human being.  Kerouac is

turning Neal into a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his

life.  Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the wrong question to

ask.  A more appropriate question is what does Dean Moriarty or Cody

stand for.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:17:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: God

 

Reply to message from thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU of Mon, 07 Jul

>

>On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Sherri wrote:

>

>> Why the hell does everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with

>> magical powers... aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a

>> little beyond our own puny little selves?

>>

>> Ciao,

>> Sherri

>>

>i couldn't agree more.  i've often said as much to friends and collegues.

>to me, God isn't corporeal.  I don't picture God as corporeal.  in fact,

>to me, it's impossible to picture God at all.  The fact that we even

>attempt to name God is puzzling.  God is a mind more powerful than we

>can even begin to conceive.  Maybe.

>Jenn Thompson

 

 

"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him"

        Voltaire (??)

 

"If Lemons did not exist, it would be necessary to invent them."

        Stoppard (as in Tom, of Rosen & Guil are Dead Fame)

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:56:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      hello again back from vacation, etc

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hello yall

i just thought i would drop a note to all here saying that im back from

vacation if anyone is trying to get a hold of me or whatever. spent 10

days in montreal and (to keep it all beat related, etc) met up with

beat-L's very own Antoine Maloney, spent a great afternoon/evening

wandering around his bookshelves, talking, drinking wine, wandering for

bookstores on ste-catherine and generally talking and meeting eachotehr in

person (only person from beat-L that ive actually MET in the flesh. pretty

damn fun)going on at the same time i was there was the Ontreal

interational jazz festival (of which i didnt get achance to take in

anything, latho i heard they had a great turn out) as well as an

incredible show at the musee des beaux-arts de montreal entitles "exiles &

emigrees: artists who fled hitler 1933-1941" which included ( and hense

the beat connection) early dadaist andre breton (surrealist) and kurt

schwitters (of "merz" and collage fame). its a great show if anyone out

there gets a chance to take it in (i dont think its travelling

 tho, so you'll have to trip up to montreal). schwitters and bretons (as

well as the ther dadaists, like tristan tzara) had a huge influence on

wsburroughs and his cut-up method and the way that he approached cut-up as

anti-lit. (altho it could be argued that his exposure & enthusiasm for

dada could be justification after the fact for his cut-up, i dont know

that he was exposed to them before he started his own work with cut-up,

but was exposed early on none the less).

great show. great vacation. great day w/ antoine. great city.

gadzooks

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:46:07 +0000

Reply-To:     "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "neudorf@discovland.net" <neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>

Subject:      Mythmaking

MIME-Version: 1.0

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derek wrote:

 

> the repitition of stories and tales, the idolizing of freinds and situations

> thru lit & poetry - almost brings to mind greek & oral storytelling.

 

sounds good

 

JN

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:31:09 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Cody Part 2

MIME-Version: 1.0

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this whole time i was reading this i kept thinking about the comments

posted about Burroughs warning Jack about "cody" and kept thinking that

this was something of a reply to WSB - not for WSB but for Jack and the

rest of the world - to try and understand why "cody" was the way "cody"

was.

 

but

i also got this yucky feeling the whole time like i was supposed to feel

for "cody" b/c he'd had such a hard life and all that.....

 

i think charley's remark about the inversion of the hustler-hero labels

pretty fascinating.  i think he has a definite point.  one person's

hustler is another's hero and vice versa and maybe the whole idea of

labeling hustlers and heroes and creating legends(and victims) icons and

myths is ............ feudal, futile ??????

 

no clue.  started Part 3.

both seem much less Mythic in the dialogues.

i wanted to color code my book for sections written on different drugs

different colors but didn't know where to start......

 

oops got to go change the laundry i tend to forget about things like

that.  oops that was chatroom so delete that sentence.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:18:58 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: opium=buddha of the masses

Comments: To: race@midusa.net

 

In a message dated 97-07-08 14:52:20 EDT, you write:

 

<<

 it is nice to dream again.  i can attest to that.  funny funny dreams.

  >>

 

i just bought William burroughs' latest novel.."my education, a book of

dreams".

I actually went to the store to buy Visions of Codeine but felt a draw toward

the "B" section in the fiction aisle and I couldn't resist.  And i spent my

money on bill, again.  i feel like as long as there are books of his (WSB) i

haven't yet read, buying Kerouac would be a waste. gotta haul my ass over to

the Library in the mornin' and cross my fingas there's VOC somewhere between

the harlequin romances and the childrens books in that pathetic excuse for a

library.

------maya

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:47:54 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody Part 2

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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RACE --- wrote:

>

> this whole time i was reading this i kept thinking about the comments

> posted about Burroughs warning Jack about "cody" and kept thinking that

> this was something of a reply to WSB - not for WSB but for Jack and the

> rest of the world - to try and understand why "cody" was the way "cody"

> was.

>

> but

> i also got this yucky feeling the whole time like i was supposed to

> feel

> for "cody" b/c he'd had such a hard life and all that.....

>

> i think charley's remark about the inversion of the hustler-hero labels

> pretty fascinating.  i think he has a definite point.  one person's

> hustler is another's hero and vice versa and maybe the whole idea of

> labeling hustlers and heroes and creating legends(and victims) icons

> and

> myths is ............ feudal, futile ??????

>

 

Maybe, but let's go from there to what Bill posted earlier about "Whether

or not Neal is really heroic is the wrong question to ask.  A more

appropriate question is what does Dean Moriarty or Cody stand for."

 

Hero or not, lets assume Cody is the main character and ask the question,

what does he stand for?  What is at the center of the myth Kerouac is

creating.  First of all you have someone who grew up in pretty dire

circumstances, son of a bum, drunk, who in reform school has a dream that

if only he educates himself, reads enough books, will avoid a similar

plight.  But, as of yet nothing about formal schooling only

self-education from library books.  He hangs out in poolhalls, bars,

drives fast cars fast, steals cars, has girls wherever he goes, loves

jazz, uses lots of different drugs, travels incessantly back and forth

across the country, has a family but isn't what many would call

responsible about it, we have some stuff coming up about how he's never

home when he should be, always out partying with other women and his wife

is constantly yelling at him about it.

 

Here somewhere lies the difference between beaten and beatific.

In K's somewhat inomancticized version of this story, which we are

reading, does Cody stand for some inversion of the American dream where

indomitable spirit and disparity go hand in hand?  For all his desires to

be otherwise, Cody still stands more or less on the wrong side of the

tracks, finding joy. life in simple pleasures but not really ever casting

America off his back.  Anyone got some more thoughts here?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:03:23 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Part III still going

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This part of the book definitely takes some persistence.  I noted two

things in the last several pages that seems to sum up where we are.

 

pg. 156

CODY:  You're not gonna get hardly any of this recorded you know

JACK:  Well, that's the sadness of it all

 

 

pg. 159

JIMMY: You're now a profound thinker

CODY:  Man, no, I'm just--

JIMMY:  You're just found

CODY:  --trying to remember what transpired before the beginning of that

       there cigarette

 

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:35:19 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      no reason!

 

today i say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It said,

"best minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....

I mean, if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it?  oh, for

chrissake.  Maybe there's reason to despair after all.

 

3 young people my age were brutally murdered in the Starbucks across the

street from where i work in DC.

 

I bought WSB's book of dreams today.  I guess i can now find out what makes

his dreams good and mine....well....undesirable to Beat-l.

 

My dry eyes ache for somewhere to bleed to

But you're all out of kleenex tonight.

 

If anyone is interested in continuing to receive my posts or in staying in

touch please let me know.  Otherwise i will no longer post anything that

doesn't have the word "Ginsberg", "Burroughs", or "Kerouac" in it.  I'm sorry

for the inconvenience I have caused by posting my own writing and not that of

others.  i see what an effort and consumption of time it is for some people

to click on the delete key.

 

am unabashedly nasty sourpuss tonight, for no reason, and, yes, I'm taking it

out on YOU,

love,

maya<<sick of apologizing>>: ) : ) : ) : ) (note the ironic smiley)

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:41:14 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac on Pound

Comments: To: BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu

 

In a message dated 97-07-08 21:46:14 EDT, you write:

 

<< we have different tastes, thank goodness, otherwise these discussions

 would be pretty bland. i'm not put off by Pound's personal views, or

 even strongly offended. i could sit in front of a tv on any given day

 and see worse things labeled as pure entertainment. i realize that a

 danger, if you will, of going deep and writing it down is that some,

 well...distasteful things are revealed. isn't that the point? this is

 earth, after all, and slimy things live under some of these good solid

 rocks. to think otherwise is naive. >>

 

A discussion on the boh-list might interest those on the beat-l . Not that

classification means that much in art, but Emerson wrote:

"There are two classes of poets--the poets by education and practice, these

we respect; and poets by nature, these we love."

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:46:41 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What

 

In a message dated 97-07-08 22:06:51 EDT, you write:

 

<< But what if I encountered one of

 his '60's cut-up novels in a vacuum with no context as to how he arrived at

 it, what came before or after? >>

Arthur:

In your message to Michael you mentioned some of Ginsberg poems that sank to

Bathos, that did happen even with AG. Also you may not have caught Burroughs

unless you had a background. I don't know the exact passage or text, but I

would disagree as an artist that you have to have the "surround" before you

can detect great writing.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:54:24 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: ******

 

I recall Allen saying something about taking that word out about his mother.

It may have been between the time he and Louis and his other relatives

visited us in Cherry Valley, and the time he gave Pam a poetry manuscript

when we had lunch with his stepmother. Also I think he was aware of his

father's feelings. He talked it lightly and one of us may have mentioned it

ruined the alliteration.

During my time with the beats we usually didn't regard our discussions as

documents. At least I didn't though there was always a sense of history being

made.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:20:12 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: no reason!

In-Reply-To:  <970708233513_-1427488426@emout15.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 8:35 PM -0700 7/8/97, Maya Gorton wrote:

 

> am unabashedly nasty sourpuss tonight, for no reason, and, yes, I'm taking it

> out on YOU,

 

Take it out Maya-o.  take it out.

There's a ballpark somewhere.

It's playing your song.  <<ahem::

 

        taking it out Maya-O

        taking it out on yoU

        gonna get whipped by pokka dots

        i don't care if that ****** ever does bark

 

        cause it's root root listed in the f.a.q.

        and yes, your dreams aren't the same

        as ginsberg and kerouac and what's his luck

        won't ever get breakfast at your starbucks

 

        cause it's root root listed in the f.a.q.

        the one where those children were slain

        a river in thailand with circus wheels

        a gallons of coffee and three clips in my brain

 

o Maya, o Maya  have a bawl baby

have em all     in the LOD-waiting room

walking tall and proud and poetic

butt you still be ugly!  my darlin, saccharine

 

> love,

> maya<<sick of apologizing>>: ) : ) : ) : ) (note the ironic smiley)

 

LET'S PLAY BAWL!  LOD-POETS Doug  :-(((((

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:47:33 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      ...

In-Reply-To:  <970708235422_-1829546063@emout04.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

dear friends,

...

with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic

...

maybe it so happens that Allen Ginsberg

didn't he want another accuse of obscenity?

keep in mind that also Jack Kerouac changed

names with pseudonyms rightly or wrongly, to

not offended some people characterized in his

works,

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo. * a not competent beat *

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:24:16 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: no reason!

Comments: To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

In-Reply-To:  <970708233513_-1427488426@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "Maya

              Gorton" at Jul 8, 97 11:35:19 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>

> today i say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It said,

> "best minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....

> I mean, if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it?  oh, for

> chrissake.  Maybe there's reason to despair after all.

 

Maya--Which book on the fifties are you reading?  Ginsberg's original

draft actually read "starving mystical naked," but he revised this in later

drafts. I'm curious how this revision was presented in the book you're

reading--and if it was presented as part of a discussion of revision at

all.  Thanks--

 

Tony

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:46:09 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> I don't know the exact passage or text, but I

> would disagree as an artist that you have to have the "surround" before

> you

> can detect great writing.

 

Charles,

 

I agree that you don't need background to "detect" great writing.  But

the background or previous work sometimes lends itself to the unfolding

of greater understanding in what is read.  Many times it provides more

levels to what might only have been read one way by itself.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:39:19 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         JWHasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      HOWL misquoted?

Comments: To: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Maya wrote:

 

today i say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It

said,

"best minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....

I mean, if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it?  oh, for

chrissake.  Maybe there's reason to despair after all.

 

Maya:

That's from the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I

made the same mistake a while back.

 

John Hasbrouck

--

 

 

*** JOHN HASBROUCK

*** Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago

*** http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:20:56 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cody Part 2

 

Diane:

 

Here are my thoughts on your CODY PART 2 post from 7/9/97 9:32:58EDT:

 

As I mentioned on an earlier posting that you may have seen, Neal was a

contradictory character to say the least, as established in the

unromanticized biographical writings, especially OFF THE ROAD, by his widow

Carolyn.  His contradictory impulses were irreconcilable and at odds with

each other, in the "beautiful loser" tradition where he wanted his "home and

security" and wanted "to live like a sailor at sea" (or a bat out of hell

driving on the road, etc.), as Bob Seger would belt out.  The extremity of

how far he went with his contradictory inclinations is I think one of the

sources of JK and the other Beats' fascination with him- the sheer energy

with which he conducted his perilously complex life, the reckless audacity,

never saying no to anyone or anything, blew them away in and of itself.  JK's

romanticizing and mythologizing of NC as Cody, Dean, etc. can on one level be

seen as simply a celebratory description of this phenomenon, even with an

implicit understanding of the ultimate irreconcilability and consequential

irresponsibility of his behavior.

 

What ingredients created the explosive combination that burned so brightly

and impressed so many as to create a legend?  We can never know the answer

fully, but there is enough evidence to come to some speculative conclusions.

 Certainly, NC's traumatic childhood must be a key factor- I think his father

both represented a certain attractive freedom and self-determination while at

the same time failed him and caused him to suffer the consequences of

parental irresponsibility- the line was crossed between freedom and being

left out in the cold.  His closeness to and bonding with his father fused

these two aspects into a personality where they uneasily co-existed within

and were acted out by him, with rollercoaster results for himself and all the

others in his life.  Interestingly, at least one of his sons, as interviewed

in LITERARY KICKS, seems to have it together and perhaps broken the cycle.

 Anyway, this is just my speculation, NC's kaleidescopic case is best left to

the psychologists, such as my wife.

 

JK's take on NC in OTR, VOC and elsewhere should not, in my opinion, be

received as some guide or lessons about how to live or a judgement, good bad

or indifferent, about NC's conduct- it is ART and POETRY extracted from LIFE.

 When I first read OFF THE ROAD, it made me appreciate the very unromantic

consequences of the behavior that JK romanticizes, for those left behind.

 But upon further reflection, as I have said above, I think that JK & co. are

not making excuses for or validating NC, or their own complicity with him, no

one is more or less qualified for that, what they have done is presented a

picture that we can all interpret or just enjoy the ride.

 

I'll reply to your 7/8/97 1:56:05 EDT message from yesterday separately to

you personally, in respect of the perimeters that have been set for this

List.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:54:34 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: God

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970707180941.0069b81c@uoft02.utoledo.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 18.09 07/07/97 -0400, Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU> wrote:

>        There is no "God." Case closed. --Sara

...

        eli

        eli lamma lamma sabachtani

...                                             --allen ginsberg, howl, I

 

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:19:51 -0700

Reply-To:     runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What

In-Reply-To:  <33C31791.4363@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 9:46 PM -0700 7/8/97, Diane Carter wrote:

 

> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> >

> > I don't know the exact passage or text, but I

> > would disagree as an artist that you have to have the "surround" before

> > you

> > can detect great writing.

>

> Charles,

>

> I agree that you don't need background to "detect" great writing.  But

> the background or previous work sometimes lends itself to the unfolding

> of greater understanding in what is read.  Many times it provides more

> levels to what might only have been read one way by itself.

 

Duchamp at one point gave up art and decided upon a life of chess.  He'd

lied of course. The act of designation by the artist was enough to make

something an "art object".  [see readymades]

 

 As far as appreciation goes, yes, the artist, were he a single drop of

water, a single drop of water hinged somewhere and descending, suddenly to

hit a concrete surface... well, the sound might not be that interesting.

the resonance might not carry that far.  poor little artist might not even

get absorbed into the ground.  till the next drop falls. and the next drop.

 

and that first step, that first instance of surround.  that single

perception of duality, of outside paradoxes, *that appreciation of levels.

=well, that's enough of a foundation for anyone.  to be an artist.

 

people have the power.  Douglas  <<ahem: ginsberg, kerouac, burroughs>>

 

> DC

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/                let the man come thru

stand up, and let the man come thru             let the man come thru

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:39:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Adrien writ:

 

><<work, Allen probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling

>confident enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there

>to scrutinize him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in

>the '96 recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the

>decision that the asterisks should remain where they were and he

>wouldn't associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,

with gutter language.>>

 

yes, and this written omission, this disruptive poetic mistake, this

outside control over his own mind and work; surely Ginsberg recognized

and respected how it lived a life of its own.  The asterisks were public

property [riddled with private thoughts].   and in their benign

simplicity must have been a great supporter.  The respect for others,

within himself.  The ability to censor, what power!  In the hands of a

poet!  and scholar!

 

>[[exploring the grey areas, making semi-intentional "mistakes" --

>publically]]

 

for the purpose of discourse.  the act of being human.   *****  what a

great process!

 

>> That's just me speculating, I could be wrong!

 

>> Adrien

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:42:01 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

 Adrien writ:

> > ...in his old age Allen had probably come to the

> > >decision that the asterisks should remain where they were and he

> > >wouldn't associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,

> > with gutter language.>>

> >

> > >> Adrien

> patricia writes

> i don't know if allen did consider the word fucked as gutter language

>  i could see him using the ****  out of respect for his parents feelings but i

 don't see him having or sharing those supposted feelings about the word fucked.

 just to be puckish i like that dear old word fucked, see as a verb with verve.

 Now he might have but he might of left the ***s  out of a sense of the history

 or just liked to see people try and pronounce it.

p

> patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:44:16 -0400

Reply-To:     Goose Bumping Records <frsn@INTAC.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Goose Bumping Records <frsn@INTAC.COM>

Subject:      Beat Writing Contributions

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I've been on this list for a couple of weeks, and would now like to

contribute to it.  My name's Steve Voss, and I have recently completed my

High School Senior Project, a web site devoted to the Beat Generation,

while it's no Literary Kicks, I am proud of it, and interested in

expanding it.  One way I would like to do so is with writing

contributions from writers today.  So, what I'm asking, is if anyone has

something that they've written that they're especially proud of, and

would like to see published on the web, to please send it to me, in a

.txt file, or simply via e-mail at this address.

 

The address of the page is http://www.geocities.com/~beatgeneration/

 

Thanks for your time,

Steve Voss

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:05:34 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: cody II

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> not much discussion about cody part 2; wonder if it is because there is a

> sense of been there/read that before.

 

That's probably the truth, instead of first impressions it's more like

third or fourth impressions for me.

 

> what i see here is JK's edgy  am i hero/am i narrator thread which is seen

> more clearly here than in OTR.also,  in the face of the visionary cody, he

> wishes he were bigger smarter faster ...

 

Good point. He always asks himself this question...it's in every book.

He always seemed to beat himself up with those thoughts, always wanted

to run, enjoy life, DO instead of merely observe, but home always pulled

him back just enough to not let him pursue that to the fullest.

 

In part 2 Jack is paralleling Neal's (ewps, I mean Cody) early life with

his own. He describes Cody wooing girls, slyly conning his new friends,

and showing his athletic prowess (another high point: the football

scene!). On the oter hand, Jack is moping around, wishing he did this n

that, and he describes his own sorry attempt at getting on the ship,

hoping to start a new adventure that would end up in Indochina...well,

it's the usual wishful thinking on his part, big big plans but never

following through on them.

 

Jack's insecurities are right there for everyone to see in part 2. Above

all else is his insecurity with women. Every so often he regales us with

semi-boastful tales of who he fucked, who he wished he fucked, etc.

Seems to obsess about it a bit too much, making it look like he was

desperately trying to cover up his inadequacy with women (another part

of his hero-worshipping of Neal/Cody...Mr. Cassady/Pomeray the famous

cocksman and adonis of Denver).

 

The best example of this writing is his big spiel about the two racy

photos...he totally loses himself in the photos as he stands on the

street on Times Square, standing there with all the other older lechers.

It's an interesting piece cos it's so unlike anything Jack ever wrote,

sort of from a dirty old man's point of view (he's no Henry Miller!),

contrasting from his incredibly romantic few weeks with the Mexican girl

a few years earlier, and his self-imposed "chastity" vow during his

mid-fifties Buddhist period. His breast obsession starts to get a bit

funny and he seems to notice it himself:

 

"pulled cloth down but only one end so that instead of one-fourth upper

left of a breast showing (with valley) now we see three-fifths full

upper breast with valley expanding-Ah those gorgeous breasts-I stand

here among the religious dirty old men of the world, chewing gum, like

them, with a horrible beating heart-I can hardly think or control

myself-" (p.76)

 

[five minute pause to rescue a cute little mousey from our basement

window well]

 

anyway, where was I?

Jack's description of him and other men holding up traffic just to look

at a photo in a window is not only funny, but also hints at his feelings

of inadequacy and lack of confidence with women. he always did his best

writing either alone or with guys around, funny enough.

 

As for his pitiful struggle to get on the S.S. John Adams, he describes

meeting the ship again in California. In Lonesome Traveler there's a

piece called Piers of the Homeless Night, and I think it further

describes that same L.A. sojourn. It's an absolutly hilarious piece

about his running around town with Henri Cru (Deni Bleu) and how Deni

hooks Jack up with someone who'll give him a gun, and tells him to meet

the ship and "cover" Deni as he tries to escape two sailors who want to

kill him. I think that's the same trip, and I suggest anyone who hasn't

read it lately and who is reading VOC just take a break before the

grueling part 3 (ugh, it's a little too much but barely tolerable...I

suggest don't overanalyze it, just read it quickly and you'll get the

general idea) and have a nice larf courtesy of Jack.

 

On to 29 Russell street and part 3...

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:29:18 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: HOWL misquoted?

 

Reply to message from jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM of Wed, 09 Jul

>

>Maya wrote:

>

>today i say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It

>said,

>"best minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....

>I mean, if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it?  oh, for

>chrissake.  Maybe there's reason to despair after all.

>

>Maya:

>That's from the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I

>made the same mistake a while back.

>

>John Hasbrouck

 

I thought Ginsberg "bragged" that teh first part of Howl was written

without revision....or did the writers of those nasty time/life articles

from teh fifties try to play up a no-revision poem to "prove" how horrible

NORMAL society thought it was?....

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:38:40 -0400

Reply-To:     Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: cody 2

Mime-Version: 1.0

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arthur you continue to delight me since climbing aboard this ship of fools.

having just re-read the first third by casady in reading section II, i was

struck at how many traumatic, never mind downtrodding incidents formed his

early life. not being able to jump off a freight cab in the freezing dark,

father on the rails, days getting back, of being smothered in the hollywood

style bed, the stark deprivation and the busy mind and tough survior

explorer of everything he could in life. and the sociopathy, who could have

survived such a childhood with out developing the mindset and behaviors

which caused such a split in personality/as seen by friends and others.

 

What ingredients created the explosive combination that burned so brightly

and impressed so many as to create a legend?  We can never know the answer

fully, but there is enough evidence to come to some speculative conclusions.

 Certainly, NC's traumatic childhood must be a key factor- I think his father

both represented a certain attractive freedom and self-determination while at

the same time failed him and caused him to suffer the consequences of

parental irresponsibility- the line was crossed between freedom and being

left out in the cold.  His closeness to and bonding with his father fused

these two aspects into a personality where they uneasily co-existed within

and were acted out by him, with rollercoaster results for himself and all the

others in his life.  Interestingly, at least one of his sons, as interviewed

in LITERARY KICKS, seems to have it together and perhaps broken the cycle.

 Anyway, this is just my speculation, NC's kaleidescopic case is best left to

the psychologists, such as my wife.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:35:11 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Wed blues.

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        priest

        confessor

 

        u get

        married

        my confessor

 

        an angel

        has pissed

        on my head

 

        my imaginary

        friend

 

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.

 

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:58:15 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: HOWL misquoted?

In-Reply-To:  <199707092029.QAA13993@piglet.INS.CWRU.Edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:29 PM 7/9/97 -0400, Diane M. Homza wrote:

>>Maya:

>>That's from the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I

>>made the same mistake a while back.

>>

>>John Hasbrouck

>

>I thought Ginsberg "bragged" that teh first part of Howl was written

>without revision....or did the writers of those nasty time/life articles

>from teh fifties try to play up a no-revision poem to "prove" how horrible

>NORMAL society thought it was?....

 

>Diane. (H)

>

>--

>Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

>--Heidi A. Emhoff

 

Diane--I think it's the latter.  This is why I asked Maya if the book she

was reading simply misquotes an early draft as if it were a final draft . .

. or whether the book actually takes Ginsberg's revisions as seriously as

he did.  From my own research--and from what I've read in a few others

(Miles & Schumacher included)--Ginsberg's was as serious about revision as

most professional writers are, and he understood revision to be compatible

with maxims like "First Thought, Best Thought."

 

Tony

 

******************************************************************

"The beetles are the beetles.  They clean up all the vermin.  They're

not very friendly, but they clean up all the vermin.  They don't do

much else, but they make holes in your house.  Beetles--they're like

mice, they're like rats.  They ARE rats.  Beetles are alright.  They

ruin a lot of things, but they're good for us."

--William "Fergie" Ferguson

******************************************************************

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:36:10 -0500

Reply-To:     Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      asterisks

Content-Type: text

 

To elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,

Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles (this is a

really fine book, even though Ginsberg sometimes seems to be

providing explanations of his allusions that seem more creative than

the allusions themselves), the process follows this pattern:

p. 27 (draft 2): "with mother finally fucked"

p. 31 (draft 3): same as above

p. 42 (draft 4): "finally ***" (just 3, as Tony noted)

p. 53 (draft 5): same as 4

p. 58 (draft page, apparently early: "his own mother finally fucked"

In addition to the comment Ginsberg made about the asterisks, in "Author's

Annotations" (pp.131-32), he adds, "In a letter regarding this project

received September 29, 1985, Carl Solomon wrote: 'Mother finally ***.

Crap. Sorry Allen.'"

Perhaps the asterisks reveal the power of the Oedipal taboo.

On the other hand, a number of years ago at the Naropa Institute in

Boulder, CO, I once specifically asked Ginsberg why he used the asterisks,

and he, earnestly and defensively, told me, "Because it didn't really

happen." His logic escapes me.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much?

Cordially,

Mike Skau

7/9/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:54:52 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS

Comments: To: baculum@mci2000.com

 

The chairman of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted to

teach. After all these years. Now that I have lost my mind.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:41:28 -0700

Reply-To:     Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Subject:      Cody Bound for Glory On the Road

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In my somewhat slower reading of VOC I finally stumbled on a reference I guess I

 have

been looking for for a long time. On p.41 (McGrawHill HB) in Jack's letter to

 Cody, he

says:

"...Peaches Martin(!) - who's back playing guitar and singing folk songs in

 Village..."

Kerouac and Cassady's interest in jazz is well-documented, and the rock

 connection is

hinted at in Kicks Joy Darkness, but would they have been aware of the folk

 scene in the

40s and 50s ?

To take it a bit further Woody Guthrie's autobiography/novel Bound for Glory

 reads much

like a down to earth kind of road experience, and again I wonder if Kerouac

 would have

known/liked, say, "This Land is Your Land" or "Pastures of Plenty"?

Guthrie was a hobo, perhaps exactly not the kind described in "The Vanishing

 American

Hobo", but similar anyway.

And what about Ginsberg ? He's been presented as a father figure for a young Bob

 Dylan,

and he recorded on Folkways, but would he with his more leftist political

 leanings have

been associated with, say, Pete Seeger ?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:48:03 -0700

Reply-To:     Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Subject:      HOWL! - a farewell compilation

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Does anyone know anything about this CD titled Howl ? Does it have any

connection with THE Howl ?

In Europe it is released on Glitterhouse Records GRCD 352, and as far as

the notes say there are no texts by Ginsberg, although some titles hint

at BEAT/jazz connections: "Route 66" and "Dexter Gordon".

Featured artists include: Giant Sand, Russ Tolman, Steve Wynn, Joe Henry,

Victoria Williams and more.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:51:49 -0700

Reply-To:     Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>

Subject:      Leroi Jones/Amiri Baraka

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To what extent is Jones/Baraka seen as a Beat writer ?

I have been reading "The Dutchman" and certainly references are made to a

jazzy beat environment, but was he a part of the "circle" of beats ?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:26:02 -0700

Reply-To:     "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

Subject:      another textual question--this time, calling all hebrew-ists!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

my students have been reading and really getting into Kaddish...

i have done workmanlike job of trying to trace out allusions and such

that seem fuzzy or blurry to them (and to me).

 

they have asked that i get at the following line, from my page 89 of of

Portable Beat Reader edition/version, from Part II:

 

Yisborach, v'yistabach, v'yispoar, v'yisroman, v'yisnaseh,/v'yishador,

v'yishalleh, v'yishallol, sh'meh d'kudsho, b'rich hu."

 

i suspect of course that this line is from the Kaddish prayer itself--but

want to be sure of that--and it would not be bad to get translation!!! No

dictionaries in our little library to take me to the words in words, so

to speak.

 

can someone help? maybe the person(s) who posted the Kaddish on the list

when AG left this meat wheel can be of special help.

 

also, when searching under term "kaddish" on the web, I "learned" that

there is really another prayer which takes care of the notion/need for

mourning. therefor, Kaddish of AG may be more the poem which does indeed

ask for blessing and finally nod to power and good of god??? the good of

death, obliteration, etc. now out of this and into the void or eternity

or whatever?

 

thanks in advance for your helps....

 

best always,

 

steve

 

pacific u.

forest grove, oregon

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:27:41 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody Bound for Glory On the Road

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Jens Koch wrote:

>

> In my somewhat slower reading of VOC I finally stumbled on a reference I guess

 I

>  have

> been looking for for a long time. On p.41 (McGrawHill HB) in Jack's letter to

>  Cody, he

> says:

> "...Peaches Martin(!) - who's back playing guitar and singing folk songs in

>  Village..."

> Kerouac and Cassady's interest in jazz is well-documented, and the rock

>  connection is

> hinted at in Kicks Joy Darkness, but would they have been aware of the folk

>  scene in the

> 40s and 50s ?

> To take it a bit further Woody Guthrie's autobiography/novel Bound for Glory

>  reads much

> like a down to earth kind of road experience, and again I wonder if Kerouac

>  would have

> known/liked, say, "This Land is Your Land" or "Pastures of Plenty"?

> Guthrie was a hobo, perhaps exactly not the kind described in "The Vanishing

>  American

> Hobo", but similar anyway.

> And what about Ginsberg ? He's been presented as a father figure for a young

 Bob

>  Dylan,

> and he recorded on Folkways, but would he with his more leftist political

>  leanings have

> been associated with, say, Pete Seeger ?

 

Recording for Folkways means being associated with Moses Asch (sp?) [i

have an old copy of one of his Broadside magazines somewhere around

here]  also Sis Cunningham who ran Broadside lived on the upper west

side of Manhattan.  These were the spiritual grandparents of the entire

New York folk scene.  It seems difficult to believe that all of these

would be unconnected and unknown .......

 

interesting ideas and glad you pointed them out.  i'm really curious

about it.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:34:29 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Cody Part 2

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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

>

> JK's take on NC in OTR, VOC and elsewhere should not, in my opinion, be

> received as some guide or lessons about how to live or a judgement,

> good bad or indifferent, about NC's conduct- it is ART and POETRY

> extracted from LIFE.  When I first read OFF THE ROAD, it made me

> appreciate the very unromantic

> consequences of the behavior that JK romanticizes, for those left

> behind. But upon further reflection, as I have said above, I think that

>JK & co. are not making excuses for or validating NC, or their own complicity

 with him, no one is more or less qualified for that, what they

have done is presented a picture that we can all interpret or just enjoy

the ride.

 

 

I agree largely with your assessment.  None of the beats in life can be

revered as models for having a particularly stable family life, if that

is one's goal.  It is the "art and poetry extracted from life" that I

find fascinating and intriguing.  And that applies to the treatment thus

far of Cody in VOC.  I guess I am wondering about a couple of things in

the presentation of Cody.  Part II is definitely still a romantic

presentation of the protagonist and perhaps what is in the mind of Jack

the writer, as Marie quoted in another post,

 

"...but the main thing I suppose will be this life-long monologue which

is begun in my mind--life lifelong complete contemplation...(do need a

recorder)...then I could keep the most complete record in the world which

in itself could be divided into twenty massive and pretty interesting

volumes of tapes describing activities everywhere and excitements and

thoughts of mad valuable to me..."

 

So when you get to part three, which seems like probably the central part

of the work, we have the tape.  Cody is not presented in a favorable way

in the tape, he is for the most part incoherent.  Makes one wonder about

the motive of the writer. Is this planned as an introduction to the

downside of Cody, romanticized hero hits reality.  Or, is it supposed to

be a recording of what Jack saw as a valuable moment in time, a bonding

of sorts with the protaganist that still presents him in a favorable

light?  Perhaps I am looking for too much, but there seems to be some

planned order to the way things unfold.

DC

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:48:24 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: cody 2

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> having just re-read the first third by casady in reading section II, i

> was struck at how many traumatic, never mind downtrodding incidents

> formed his early life. not being able to jump off a freight cab in the

> freezing dark, father on the rails, days getting back, of being

> smothered in the hollywood style bed, the stark deprivation and the

> busy mind and tough survior explorer of everything he could in life

> and the sociopathy, who could have survived such a childhood with out

> developing the mindset and behaviors which caused such a split in

> personality/as seen by friends and others.

 

 

It often makes me wonder though, given his childhood, why NC did not in

fact turn out the opposite of his father.  Why he didn't have an aversion

to the freedom of the rail, or automobile cross-country wanderings, the

rollercoaster type of life that was so traumatic for himself.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:01:52 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: HOWL question--help!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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The times I have heard Howl in person (late 60's) and on tape is was

"fucked".  I find it hard to visualize AG seeing the word as obscene,

given the descriptions of Naomi in Kaddish.  I think you come up with a

valiant explanation of the asterisks, maybe as good as there is, but

maybe he saw the asterisks as letting the reader fill in the blanks and

being as graphic as he or she felt like being, or to be a little cute

and ironic.

 

J Stauffer

 

Adrien Begrand wrote:

 . . .

 I think in the end he probably put the asterisks

> in for his father's benefit. Louis hated Allen's frequent use of

> profanity (he was outraged over the language in Kaddish, mainly the

> "pubic beard" line) and with this being Allen's first major published

> work, Allen probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling

> confident enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there

> to scrutinize him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in

> the '96 recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the

> decision that the asterisks should remain where they were and he

> wouldn't associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,

> with gutter language.

>

> That's just me speculating, I could be wrong!

>

> Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:02:14 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: asterisks

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Michael Skau wrote:

>

> To elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,

> Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles (this is a

> really fine book, even though Ginsberg sometimes seems to be

> providing explanations of his allusions that seem more creative than

> the allusions themselves), the process follows this pattern:

> p. 27 (draft 2): "with mother finally fucked"

> p. 31 (draft 3): same as above

> p. 42 (draft 4): "finally ***" (just 3, as Tony noted)

> p. 53 (draft 5): same as 4

> p. 58 (draft page, apparently early: "his own mother finally fucked"

> In addition to the comment Ginsberg made about the asterisks, in

>"Author's

> Annotations" (pp.131-32), he adds, "In a letter regarding this project

> received September 29, 1985, Carl Solomon wrote: 'Mother finally ***.

> Crap. Sorry Allen.'"

> Perhaps the asterisks reveal the power of the Oedipal taboo.

> On the other hand, a number of years ago at the Naropa Institute in

> Boulder, CO, I once specifically asked Ginsberg why he used the

> asterisks,

> and he, earnestly and defensively, told me, "Because it didn't really

> happen." His logic escapes me.

> Methinks the lady doth protest too much?

> Cordially,

> Mike Skau

> 7/9/97

 

It seems ironic but Ginsberg's comments to you make sense in light of the

way I always interpreted the asterisks, which I read as meaning more than

fucked.  I always interpreted the meaning to be with mother finally "out

of my head" meaning I've dealt with the "succumbed to her madness" aspect

of life.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:57:08 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: another textual question--this time, calling all hebrew-ists!

Comments: To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:

>

> my students have been reading and really getting into Kaddish...

> i have done workmanlike job of trying to trace out allusions and such

> that seem fuzzy or blurry to them (and to me).

>

> they have asked that i get at the following line, from my page 89 of of

> Portable Beat Reader edition/version, from Part II:

>

> Yisborach, v'yistabach, v'yispoar, v'yisroman, v'yisnaseh,/v'yishador,

> v'yishalleh, v'yishallol, sh'meh d'kudsho, b'rich hu."

>

> can someone help?

 

Here's all I can offer:

 

>From Collected Poems:

"YISBORACH...B'RICH HU: Heart of Kaddish Prayer for the dead, for

translation see lines 1-2, "Hymmnn" section of Kaddish."

 

...where we find...

 

"In the world which He has created according to his will Blessed Praised

Magnified Lauded Exalted the Name of the Holy One Blessed is He!"

 

Hope that helped.

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:40:25 -0700

Reply-To:     mike@infinet.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject:      Re: asterisks

Comments: To: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Michael Skau wrote:

> ******

> To elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,

> Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles...

 

I find this an incredible thread! This, the VOC discussion, etc. must

represent the guts of the List! I'm an intestine digesting your

incredible Beat information. I rate this thread as intensely

informational as  "Spit in the Ocean" No. 6; or Pam and Charles

Plymell's posts, etc!

Thanks!

-Michael Buchenroth

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:56:56 -0700

Reply-To:     mike@infinet.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company

Subject:      Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> The chairman of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted to

 teach. After all these years. Now that I have lost my mind.

> Charles Plymell

 

Would you mind elaborating... Will they possibly offer this course via

the internet?

 

-Michael Buchenroth

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:22:28 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:

> >

> > Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> > >

> > > The chairman of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted

 to

> >  teach. After all these years. Now that I have lost my mind.

> > > Charles Plymell

> >

> > Would you mind elaborating... Will they possibly offer this course via

> > the internet?

> >

> > -Michael Buchenroth

> good question

> by the way, mr buchenroth, after all these years your little web site

> with the exploding text has added something to my reading. kool! ouch,

> my mind it keeps expanding.

> p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:16:23 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: asterisks

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

These threads have been great.  So good to see all this wonderful

erudition back at play.

 

The best of list is back.

 

James Stauffer

Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:

>

> Michael Skau wrote:

> > ******

> > To elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,

> > Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles...

>

> I find this an incredible thread! This, the VOC discussion, etc. must

> represent the guts of the List! I'm an intestine digesting your

> incredible Beat information. I rate this thread as intensely

> informational as  "Spit in the Ocean" No. 6; or Pam and Charles

> Plymell's posts, etc!

> Thanks!

> -Michael Buchenroth

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:44:52 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Life after the ***th.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        ahem    ahem

        i aint' ready

        Father

 

        my dad's car

        is

        better

        than

        yr Dad's car

 

i take note that howl by allen ginsberg is a bloody

poem

        when i read times ago

        i havent' the same eyes

 

        i have now,

 

right!  but now just when i read howl&kaddish

i see cutted heads      &       blood           everywhere

 

        5.30 a.m. thu

 

i aint' ready   i aint' ready

i have a vision i see           i aint ready

 

        6:00 a.m. thu

 

i sing in my mind a nursery rhyme

        i aint' readY!

 

        6:00 a.m. thu

        6:00 a.m. thu

                        6:00 am thu

                                6:00 am thu

 

 

---

yrs

Rinaldo.        *       ciao            *

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:40:12 -0400

Reply-To:     Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: asterisks

In-Reply-To:  <33C47E37.3021@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>These threads have been great.  So good to see all this wonderful

>erudition back at play.

>

>The best of list is back.

>___________

and so it is!

mc (who is happy not to have touched off flame war)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:42:40 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Tape

In-Reply-To:  <33C3CBA5.3DAB@together.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Diane Carter wrote:

 

> So when you get to part three, which seems like probably the central part

> of the work, we have the tape.  Cody is not presented in a favorable way

> in the tape, he is for the most part incoherent.  Makes one wonder about

> the motive of the writer.

 

Writers get infinitely more pleasure out of pressing REC than pressing PLAY.

Could this simply have been "yet another" recording of the two of them that

he arbitrarily picked for the novel? Also am I stretching here to think that

the technology of the magnetic tape -- first available to consumers around

the time the Beats started writing -- was an integral part of much of their

work? We have Jack recording Neal and reading his Blues into wire tape

reels, early Allen practicing Drakar Doldrums on tape and bringing tape in

car across America to write Sutras, Burroughs writing extensively on the

science of the tape recorder and later Hunter Thompson running wildly

through the dens of politicos, rambling and mumbling incoherently into

high-tech microcassette recorder with bystanders looking at him in

amazement, "Like, _what_ are you doing?" To which he stops a sec to answer:

"I'm writing."

 

 

Michael Stutz

stutz@dsl.org

http://dsl.org/m/

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:28:27 -0400

Reply-To:     SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: hello again back from vacation, etc

 

Derek:

 

Thanks for mentioning the museum show.  We are planning a Vermont vacation

for next month that will include a day trip to Montreal, about an hour's

drive.

 

As for whether WSB had been exposed to these proto-practitioners of the cutup

method, he may have been but he does not mention it anywhere that I'm aware

of.  He credits the cutups entirely to his longtime friend and collaborator,

the late Brion Gysin, who in turn credits his discovery of it to a "happy

accident" in which he inadvertantly cut up newspaper articles that were under

some items he was working on, and was amused by the results.  WSB quotes BG

as saying "writing is 50 years behind painting" at the time (Paris Beat Hotel

period circa 1959), implying that his intention was to bring the techniques

of collage, etc. found in modern visual art to writing.  WSB believes that

his experiments with the cutup method have succeeded in subverting the

"pre-recorded universe".  My own dabbling in cutups had interesting results-

amidst the incoherence were some scarily relevant and meaningful phrases,

like the subconscious bobbing its head above the water to get to the deeper

crux of a matter.

 

It is possible, as with many phenomenon, that WSB & BG's discovery of cutups

was serendipitously separate from the surrealists' and dadaists' discovery of

it several generations earlier, the conceptual synchronicity of open-minded

visionaries.

 

Pleased to meet you,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:37:10 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: Neal]

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Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:46:00 -0400 (EDT)

Message-ID: <970710004557_-1125679709@emout13.mail.aol.com>

To: dcarter@together.net

Subject: Re: Neal

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although i don't think, from what i've read of him in Off theRoad (carolyn

c), letters between JK and NC, OTR, and poems, that neal was a /the "hero" in

the idealized sense that he was portryed by JK and AG, but as DC said, he did

possess a sort pf heroism.  although JK and AG accomplished worlds more in

their writing (neal was quite a procrastinator) and careers than neal did,

neal was the one they looked up to because he was the one who was "living."

 he went out and lived life to its fullest, never having a moment to rest,

while , to some extent, JK and AG just wrote about what they saw him doing.

 they let him do the living, and they immortalized it all in their work.  so

neal was a sort of hero in living how he did and "sucking the marrow out of

life" and the such, although in the long run, JK and AG formed a heroism of

their own.

carpe diem,

jenn

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:56:54 -0400

Reply-To:     Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: tape

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

great story, michael, and relevant to reading of VOC transition from II to

III. at end of part II he is wanting a "recorder" to capture everything in

the moment.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:55:03 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: hello again back from vacation, etc

 

Arthur,

 

my thought exactly - syncrhonicity.  for what it's worth, here at the

Exploratorium there is an "experiment" with blocks with words on them, one

chooses them randomly and makes phrases/sentences with them... i have,

unfortunately, forgotten whom this notion is attributed to, but i think it was

WSB...  at any rate it is uncanny how often i have found them to have some

meaning for what's going on in my life.  if nothing else, it definitely opens

the mind to endless possibilities....

 

Thanks for your most interesting and intelligent posts, i'm learning quite a

bit as a result of this thread.

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Arthur Nusbaum

Sent:   Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:28 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: hello again back from vacation, etc

 

Derek:

 

Thanks for mentioning the museum show.  We are planning a Vermont vacation

for next month that will include a day trip to Montreal, about an hour's

drive.

 

As for whether WSB had been exposed to these proto-practitioners of the cutup

method, he may have been but he does not mention it anywhere that I'm aware

of.  He credits the cutups entirely to his longtime friend and collaborator,

the late Brion Gysin, who in turn credits his discovery of it to a "happy

accident" in which he inadvertantly cut up newspaper articles that were under

some items he was working on, and was amused by the results.  WSB quotes BG

as saying "writing is 50 years behind painting" at the time (Paris Beat Hotel

period circa 1959), implying that his intention was to bring the techniques

of collage, etc. found in modern visual art to writing.  WSB believes that

his experiments with the cutup method have succeeded in subverting the

"pre-recorded universe".  My own dabbling in cutups had interesting results-

amidst the incoherence were some scarily relevant and meaningful phrases,

like the subconscious bobbing its head above the water to get to the deeper

crux of a matter.

 

It is possible, as with many phenomenon, that WSB & BG's discovery of cutups

was serendipitously separate from the surrealists' and dadaists' discovery of

it several generations earlier, the conceptual synchronicity of open-minded

visionaries.

 

Pleased to meet you,

 

Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:06:18 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      CODY: what murder?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

There have been a couple of references so far to something about Bull and

June and a murder.  Can't find the other references at the moment

but here again on page 186, we have: "...on into August, and in between

June and August everything happened, the murder took place."  Is this

ever explicated?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:27:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: hello again back from vacation, etc

Comments: To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <UPMAIL14.199707101500300776@msn.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

arthur/sherri/co.

well i think that burroughs DOES mention tristan tzara and the dadaists,

esp the cut-up work, spontaneous poems (i think he refers to tzara as the

"man from nowhere" who was thrown off the stage for pulling random words

outta a hat and proclaiming them poems...) and also makes reference to

"exquisite corpse" as well as far as i know.

        now while i cant remeber what book in particular he refers to

tzara and dada it may be in either _brion gysin let the mice in_, _the

burroughs file_ or _interzone_. no no no wait - now i remember - try

having a flip thru and reading _the third mind_ thats where burroughs and

gysin went thu and kinda explained cut-up & fold in and the made to order

deja vu that interested burroughs.

        i think that both burroughs/gysin and the dadas were interested in

breaking down barriers on the ownership and class of art. dada as anti-art

and the cut-up in which anyone (altho burruoghs does say that it works

best in the hands of a "master")can create viable texts thru "recycling"

other pieces....

        yrs

        derek

 



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