=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:29:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
Joyce is a good analogy. Who would read
Ulysses or Finnegans Wake? >
>
Answer:a lot of people.
>
> I
think it does need to be seen as part of Kerouac's oeurve. Yet it
>
can
>
stand alone, but like Ulyssess and Finnegans wake was not meant to only
>
stand alone.
>
> It
tries to do more than only tell a story but also to capture an
>essence
>
(many essences) as well.
>
> It
is also a great catalog.
>
I'm not
sure yet what I think about this book standing alone. I think
it's
best to be familiar with Kerouac before reading it. In the same
line of
thought, I don't think many people would make it through
Finnegans
Wake without being familiar with Joyce and having read his
earlier
stuff, especially Ulysses. As it is
even some people who love
Ulysses
find Finnegans Wake beyond them. What I
would like to address is
whether
Kerouac had in mind his own version of a Joycean work here. The
similarity
in the out of time material is striking, but there are huge
differences
in writing methods. Joyce was a
mastermind when it came to
construction. He revised endlessly. He wanted the reader to think about
every
single word in and out of consciousness.
I think Kerouac often
attempts
this kind of mastermind plan but the spontaneous prose throws
him
off. He's constantly playing with the idea but can't quite pull it
off. The highness of the characters in part three
is quite a different
kind of
consciousness as compared to dream-like unconscious images that
take
things out of time and place. I keep
hoping for more of a flow
between
the parts. It seems like the visions should flow without total
disconnection
at any point.
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:05:02 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Neil
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Someone
came close to touching on this, but why is Neal the hero? To me
Jack is
the hero. He is the one that actually
does it. I never find my
self
liking the image Jack projects of Neal.
He would not be very
likable,
and is a person in action. But for
what or why. He must have
been a
very charasmatic person when you were with him. But his actions
tend
not to be likable.
I
wonder if WSB, Charles or others that knew him found him to be a
"hero"
type, or just a hustler.
I
always saw a homosexual type attachment, and a longing to be willing
to do
what Neal did. Jack talks about it,
writes it, but push come to
shove,
he would go down and buy a ticket rather than ride the box car.
So,
there is a desire to be "real" instead of a writer. Dylan said
somewhere
he wished he'd been a doctor so he could have done some good
in the
world.
But,
Jack is the prophet. He took all he saw
and learned and turned it
into
something bigger stretching it out to include every leave. He even
pays
homage to Thomas Wolfe in the middle of the food scene. So when he
is
writing, his confidence flows and grows.
VoC is
his attempt to record reality just the way he saw it. It is
worthy.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:10:18 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody ---- the letter
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that is
Quite the letter.
gotta
wonder though. if i got that letter in
the mail part of me would
be
saying:
"that
fish has caught the bait for life.
he'll do anything for me now!"
devil
in me i guess.
jack's
friendship with Cody just seems so naive.
my
glass house is shattering around me as i type.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:15:21 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: HST
Finally
caught up with HST site. This was who my new friend helping me
with my
mss went to see in NYC? Warmed over edge. The interview with P. J.
O'Rourke was cute. P.J. used to sit in prof.
Coleman's class across from me
all
pimply and afraid to say anything about
the beats or respond to whuts
happenin
in the academe. Now the profs take him
for gospel right next to New
Yorker
, Look, Ma I'm hip.Tired of this dated
crap. Reading Carl Watson's
Empire
of the Birds tonight. He said the only religion left is "Be Careful".
At least he's current. Who wanted to compare
Poe? My, my, can't get by.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:22:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody, Part III
In a
message dated 97-07-07 22:28:32 EDT, you write:
<< It seems like the visions should flow
without total
disconnection at any point. >>
Just a
thread
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:35:48 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody ---- the letter
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>RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
that is Quite the letter.
>
>
gotta wonder though. if i got that
letter in the mail part of me would
> be
saying:
>
>
"that fish has caught the bait for life.
he'll do anything for me
>
now!"
>
>
devil in me i guess.
>
>
jack's friendship with Cody just seems so naive.
>
> my
glass house is shattering around me as i type.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
I agree
about Jack's friendship kinda being naive.
look at
page 39:
"anybody
who knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about
in my secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows
of time and personality,, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the
way with me...I'm completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves
and digs your greatness completely."
What
more can you possibly say to someone?
Was Jack's trust ever
misplaced?
There were a couple places in OTR where Jack said, 'I'm done
with
you,' but he always came back. I do
think, as I said before, that
to some
extent Jack's will to live is intertwined with Neal's sense of
life.
Then again, maybe growing up in America later than these guys,
makes
us see things more corruptly???
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:28:47 -0400
Reply-To: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrew Szymczyk
<trent@JANE.PENN.COM>
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would
the listowner please contact me privately or could a
beat-l
member please send me an address where the
listowner
could be reached. it's imperative that
i get ahold
of him.
thanks,
andrew
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 03:56:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody ---- the letter
not
only more corruptly, but more cynically and selfishly. there is a beauty
in
loving in this pure and innocent way that perhaps none of us are capable of
any
more. and the feeling derived from it is unparalleled.
innocence
was something that greatly appealed to JK, it seems to me: the way
he
refers to young girls and what seems to thrill him about them, his
comparison
of the "Negro cat" in the subway (pg 19, my edition) to
Dostoyevsky's
Prince Myshkin ( i can't think of a more endearing, sweet,
innocent,
prophet-like character in literature, at least not at this moment).
and, in
fact, isn't it that very innocence/romanticism that we adore in JK in
the
first place? what is more intriguing
than a great mind blended with a
heart
also capable of sheer simplicity of feeling?
and
doesn't hero worship require a certain innocence? JK knew NC's many
flaws,
but chose to love the greatness in him, perhaps as his alterego.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Monday, July 07, 1997 11:35 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Cody ---- the letter
>RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
that is Quite the letter.
>
>
gotta wonder though. if i got that
letter in the mail part of me would
> be
saying:
>
>
"that fish has caught the bait for life.
he'll do anything for me
>
now!"
>
>
devil in me i guess.
>
>
jack's friendship with Cody just seems so naive.
>
> my
glass house is shattering around me as i type.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
I agree
about Jack's friendship kinda being naive.
look at
page 39:
"anybody
who knows the sum and substance of what I know and feel and cry
about
in my secret self all the time when I don't feel strong, the
sorrows
of time and personality,, and can therefore on all levels make it
all the
way with me...I'm completely your friend, your 'lover,' he who
loves
and digs your greatness completely."
What
more can you possibly say to someone?
Was Jack's trust ever
misplaced?
There were a couple places in OTR where Jack said, 'I'm done
with
you,' but he always came back. I do
think, as I said before, that
to some
extent Jack's will to live is intertwined with Neal's sense of
life.
Then again, maybe growing up in America later than these guys,
makes
us see things more corruptly???
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 01:11:28 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
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AND
PS: OK POETS of BEAT-LIST, -- LISTEN
UP!
the
snails have us running for cover
it's
time to organize and develop our own channels
I'm
still trying to figure out who is out there
in the
200+ of us on this list
as the
beat-list introduction says,
let's
talk about opportunities to publish
let's
talk about beat poetics, the beat process
poets
we like and why <<loved that
vs-Elliot thread!>>
the
visual and sound arts of these writers and [[people
the
mistakes they made and why certain poems are important
and if
we're gonna stay and be civil, beat-list poets
let's
keep our posts on topic. right?
or damn
straight close right on, near it!!
maybe
stick to a universal thread title or two
[[e.g.,
freshman debates, dear diarie, notes to myself
that
can be easily marked as deletable, scrap heap, expungeable
our
process of being beat is different than an academic approach
it
takes practice and focused energy to bring our shoes closer
we have
to be able to make mistakes and stand by them, publically
to
flaunt our foibles, our speed chases, our random pastimes
our
life in the beat molde, the "wanna be beat" list
isn't a
half bad idea after all beating breathing beating hard
w/kerouacs, ginsberg,
burroughs. patti smith. etc.
I've
thought about this a lot.
have
obsessed about it really,
honesty,
probably too much
but I
depend on this list
and the
poets, friends, and <<ahem>> scholars therein
for the
exchange of punctuation, prose styles, and beat licks
that
gets me up in the morning
[[for
the visions of cody
----- I
look forward to getting off this thread ========
-----
sorry to have taken up your precious time ========
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru
let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:50:06 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ceasefire #3
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im'
pathfinder
ranger
sojourner
im' thinking
Shhh Shhh
Uhmm Uhmm
is there life?
is there
intellingent
life?
im' back
my name is
sojourner
Shhh Shhh
Uhmm Uhmm
Shhh Shhh
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:52:14 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: cody II
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not
much discussion about cody part 2; wonder if it is because there is a
sense
of been there/read that before. between the timeless geography of the
soul of
part I and the densely unmitigated dialogue of burp and fart and
scratch
of part III?
anyhoo:
there
is a longish quote on pgs 98-100 of macgraw hill edition: from which
i will
snip and snap ,[all of elipses mine] it
seems to me the heart of
part II
and perhaps the heart of JK always in his books: (and once again we
are in
the world of colors, primarily but not exclusively brown. passage is
his
experience as signing on for merchant marine as he continues to have
visions
of cody having visions)! (i've snipped the merchant marine reality
to
focus in on JK's perceptions of realities:
brown
halls of men--now by god many hours and events later i am finally
entrenched
in the vision that i re-discovered my soul with, the 'crwoded
events
of men' only now it's me, myself smack in it....I saw 'brown bar'
not in
jest, red neons or pink ones too shine in the smoke and reflect off
dark
browned panels, the beer is brown, table tops, the lights are white
but
embrowned, the tile floor too ....now what i'm going to do is this,
think
things over one by one blowing on the vsions of them and also
excitedly
discussing them as with friends as i did last night joyously
drunk
in the west end.....
(lots
of brown ale, brown sighns white capped seamen's halls)
,,, now
i'm going to be interested in these things al my life but in order
to
really involve myself as a man on the
other level of man-to-man
communication
i'm also going to talk about theset things with people if i
can,
like for instance Deni's beautiful story last night...i'm going to
talk
about thesse things with guys but the main thing i suppose will be
this
lifelong monologue which is begun in my
mind-lifelong complete
contemplation--what
ilse on earth do i really know unless i'm depriving
myself
of kinds of knowledge that would bring out those qualities in
me....--last
night in the west end bar was mad(can't think fast enough)(do
need a
recorder)...then i could keep the most complete record in the world
which
in itself could be divided into twenty massive and pretty interesting
volumes
of tapes describing activities everywhere and excitements and
thoughts
of mad valuable me and it would really have a shape but a crazy
bit
shape yet just as logical as a novel by proust because i do keep
harkening
back though i might be nervous on the mike and even tell too
much)....now
events of this moment are so mad that of course i can't keep
up but
worse they're as though they were fond memories that from my
peaceful
hacienda or proust-bed i was trying to recall in toto but couldn't
because
like the real world so vast, so
delugingly vast, i wish i god had
made me
vaster myself--i wish i had ten personalities, one hundred golden
brains,
far more ports than are ports, more energy than the river, but i
must
struggle to live it all, and on foot, and in these little crepesole
shoes, ALL of it or give up completely.
____
what i
see here is JK's edgy am i hero/am i
narrator thread which is seen
more
clearly here than in OTR.also, in the
face of the visionary cody, he
wishes
he were bigger smarter faster ... which i noted in part I: the
dreams
in which cody were not center of attention, cody letting others
talk,
etc. among other things, like seeing his work like proust, and the
recorder
wish brings us to the infamous burp fart space out tape of part III
more to
come, but the sunshine beckons
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:54:31 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Neal
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
Someone came close to touching on this, but why is Neal the hero? To
>me
>
Jack is the hero. He is the one that
actually does it. I never find
>my
>
self liking the image Jack projects of Neal.
He would not be very
>
likable, and is a person in action.
But for what or why. He must
>have
>
been a very charasmatic person when you were with him. But his actions
>
tend not to be likable.
>
> I
wonder if WSB, Charles or others that knew him found him to be a
>
"hero" type, or just a hustler.
>
I think
there's no doubt that both Kerouac and Ginsberg saw Neal as a
hero, way
beyond the homosexual attachment kind of thing. Ginsberg
writes
in Howl, "NC, secret hero of these poems," and here in VOC, the
whole
work is set up with Neal as the hero.
But it's true, if you set
the
lives together, it brings up some questions: What did Neal
accomplish
in his life? What did Ginsberg and
Kerouac accomplish in
their's
in comparison? No doubt if none of
these guys had met Neal, they
would
have still been writers, but how much different? In many ways,
early
on, they wrote about life through the experience of being around
Neal
living life. To some people Neal was a
hustler, in every sense of
the
word, but I have often thought it was in a good way, a way to get
what he
wanted, needed without hurting anyone else.
I agree, it's time
to hear
from some people that knew Neal personally, and some that have
read
stuff that Neal wrote.
DC
>
VoC is his attempt to record reality just the way he saw it. It is
>
worthy.
>
>
Peace,
>
> --
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:39:46 -0700
Reply-To: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: rumors of my death
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Dear
Beat-L Friends: July 7, 1997
As Mark Twain said, "Rumors of my
death have been greatly exaggerated."
I'm back briefly because it appalls me
to see the kind of lies that
just
got printed here by one Ms. Diane De Rooy, in my absence.
According to Ms. DeRooy, quoting Ms.
Mayo, "there is nothing
original
in this [MEMORY BABE] collection" at U Mass Lowell. According to
Ms. De
Rooy, Mr. Rod Anstee agrees totally with this.
Oh no, nothing original? What would you call 3 drafts of Memory
Babe,
in my own handwriting and typewriting?
What would you call THOUSANDS
of
pages of my own handwritten notes? What
would you call 100 letters
written
to me by the likes of Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Burroughs, Snyder,
Holmes,
Carolyn Cassady, et al. (in their handwriting and typewriting NOT
XEROX)? 60 of those have been stolen, but about 40
still remain (as far as
I know)
in the collection.
What would you call 300 original
interviews, taped firsthand with
300
different people? Not copies of the
interviews, but the ORIGINAL TAPES
THEMSELVES?
All this is not original material?
Now bethink yourself (as they used to
say). If Ms. De Rooy and Ms.
Mayo
and (apparently) Mr. Anstee can lie about the content of the
collection,
might they not also be capable of lying about the fact that
people
are being prevented from viewing and listening to it?
How can these people lie so
baldly? Is it just because Nicosia got
offline
for a few weeks to try to get some work done?
Since I obviously can't keep up with
the Beat-List right now on a
regular
basis, and still make my writing commitments (Veterans book and
autobiography
for CONTEMPORARY AUTHORS), I can only appear here
sporadically,
but if anyone has any questions when such outrageous claims
are
made, please feel free to email me directly.
Dirk Vulgate need not apply.
Thanks and my best to everyone, Gerry
Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:34:22 +0200
Reply-To: Per Kjellin
<kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Per Kjellin
<kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE>
Subject: 411
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Did you
found God on the Four11?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:55:31 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz kirby
Subject: [Fwd: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.]
MIME-Version:
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This is
a multi-part message in MIME format.
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My post
that lead to Lisa's flame.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Message-ID:
<33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
Date:
Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:28:21 -0400
From:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz kirby
X-Mailer:
Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)
MIME-Version:
1.0
To:
Mail to BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:
suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
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Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy. I ran a 411 search
and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my
email address and got me. So, I
am very
curious about this. I know that there
have been phantom posts
from
aol before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
a real
person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
and the
timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
post.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
--------------8D5FDB9EB84469087559EB16--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:33:16 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
Dear
Michael:
Your
discussion of the baggage we carry as to WHO is writing something,
rather
than what has been written itself, really hits a chord. Your example
of
Ginsberg reminds me of the January 1994
reading we attended, prior to
which
we first met each other in the autograph line at Shaman Drum Bookshop.
I can honestly say that his reading of HOWL
would have riveted and inspired
me even
if I had not known anything about who was reading it or the whole
history
and mythology surrounding it and its creator.
It is still as freshly
groundbreaking
as ever. But, if you recall, he then
launched into other
poems,
some of which were of the "homoerotic" nature you mentioned. One in
particular
was like a proctoscope's-eye-view of his rectum and its adventures
(a
personalized take on WSB's "talking asshole" routine?), which I found
tasteless,
exhibitionistic and very uninspired in its language, especially
compared
to his great earlier poems. This was
definitely an example of him
getting
away with something because he was the world-famous AG whose audience
carried
all the baggage that went along with that.
I'm sure he was quite
consciously
aware of what he was doing and was having fun with his unique
status
as a provocateur-institution hybrid.
I am
always haunted by the concern that I'm skipping over worthy items simply
because
I don't know about them and their creators aren't famous. Like your
recent
post about music, there could indeed be artists out there the caliber
of and
going forward from those Giants of the past whom I still haven't
assimilated
completely or yet recovered from. It's
a forlorn cliche repeated
throughout
human history- so many great people from each era go nearly or
completely
unrecognized until long after they've gone, those getting all the
attention
during their frustrated lifetimes now the ones justly forgotten.
Van Gogh owed money to the subject of his
painting that recently fetched
$53,000,000,
and so on ad infinitum.
This
also dovetails with a recent post by Diane Carter about particular works
within
and outside of the context of the authors' whole ouvre, using JK's VOC
and
Joyce's FINNEGANS WAKE as examples. How
do they stand on their own vs.
within
the larger context and evolution? As
you know, I'm particularly
devoted
to WSB among all the Beat writers. But
what if I encountered one of
his
'60's cut-up novels in a vacuum with no context as to how he arrived at
it,
what came before or after? In a case
like this, understanding of the
larger
context is critical, without it puzzlement and rejection are almost
inevitable.
Well,
I'm really starting to get into this List- you may have encountered
some of
my public posts, I've come in from the cold, having just written
one-on-one
until recently. It's a great exercise
and potentially has no end,
I'm
constantly toggled as with your post that compelled me to write this. A
fascinating
intellectual exchange and a galloping addiction- will I end up
losing
my family and business and end up in the cybergutter, unkempt and
glued
to the screen, still tapping the keys when the power is turned off?
I will
call you soon for a conversation in the antiquated phone medium,
unless
you Beat me to it.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:48:18 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707081342260088@msn.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Some
late night idiot wrote:
>
>
AND PS: OK POETS of BEAT-LIST, --
LISTEN UP!
>
>
the snails have us running for cover
> it's
time to organize and develop our own channels
>
I'm still trying to figure out who is out there
> in
the 200+ of us on this list
as
someone suggested backchannel, perhaps I do need therapy. <laugh> Am
thinking
I should just keep my mouth quiet and wait a while, see what
happens. get some reading done. So taking a couple of breathes, and a few
steps
back, let me apologize if I've offended anyone, and please send
related
messages backchannel, if possible.
thanx,
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru
let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:59:51 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: 411
MIME-Version:
1.0
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7bit
No, but
I found him on page 40 of James Joyce's "Ulysses":
What about what? What else were they invented for?
Reading two pages apiece of seven
books every night, eh? I was young.
You
bowed to yourself in the mirror, stepping forward to applause
earnestly,
striking face. Hurray for the
God-damned idiot! Hray!
No-one
saw: tell no-one. Books you were going
to write with letters for
titles. Have you read this F? O yes, but I prefer Q. Yes, but W is
wonderful. O yes, W.
Remember your epiphanies on green oval leaves,
deeply
deep, copies to be sent if you died to all the great libraries of
the
world, including Alexandria? Someone
was to read them there after a
few
thousand years, a mahamanvantara. Pico
della Mirandola like. Ay,
very
like a whale. When one reads these
strange pages of one long gone
one
feels that one is at one with one who once....
The grainy sand had gone from under
his feet. [...]
Douglas <<professional loon>>
"the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: Per Kjellin[SMTP:kjellin@MBOX301.SWIPNET.SE]
>Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 12:34 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: 411
>
>Did
you found God on the Four11?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:02:59 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: My reply
I'm not
going to debate Gerry Nicosia here on the list. I can't see any
compelling
reason why there should be another polarizing flame war like the
previous
one.
Nor am
I going to defend my research into the story I'm currently writing. I
will
continue my research, in person and over the telephone, and if I am fed
alleged
"misinformation" by any interview subjects, I will allow for fair
response
from dissenting parties.
My
interest has always been in writing an objective accounting of a very
emotional
issue. For the record, I don't have any intention at this time of
including
information about Gerry's archive at all. That's not my story, and
it's
already been reported upon by others.
I don't
profess to be an expert on the contents of that collection. If Martha
Mayo is
not being truthful, that's for Gerry and Martha to work out. I have
no
reason to trust my life to either of them.
I
posted that partial interview to the BEAT-L list simply to demonstrate what
sort of
information one can get when going to a "source," rather than solely
listening
to emotional hyperbole. Martha Mayo confirmed what Rod Anstee had
asked
Gerry to explain: that there are, in fact, photocopies of letters from
authors
which came from other collections, in Gerry's research archive.
I
certainly welcome your questions and comments, challenging and informative.
I have
no interest in this particular archive issue, except as a footnote to
the
larger story of the disposition of jack kerouac's writings. All I ask is
that
people contact me directly, and don't use the BEAT-L list to argue this
thing.
Again,
please know that you are all welcome to comment or send feedback to me
at
ddrooy@aol.com or membabe@aol.com.
Diane
De Rooy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:37:14 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Neal
Kerouac
certainly paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a
mistake
to only focus on Neal Cassady, the human being. Kerouac is
turning
Neal into a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his
life. Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the
wrong question to
ask. A more appropriate question is what does
Dean Moriarty or Cody
stand
for.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:50:23 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Neil
Bentz:
You
wrote:
"I
wonder if WSB, Charles or others that knew him found (Neal Cassady) to be
a
"hero" type, or just a hustler."
>From
what I' recall reading in biographies, interviews and the thinly guised
biographical
works (including ON THE ROAD itself), WSB was wary of and
annoyed
by NC during the time the Beats were living what became their legend.
He protectively warned the younger Kerouac to
be careful, like a concerned
older
brother, about the friend he was so infatuated with and who inspired
his
works. He instinctively perceived NC as
a moocher, con man and thief,
and was
not happy to have him as a guest, such as when he came along with
Kerouac
and co. in early 1949 to visit WSB and his ill-fated family outside
New
Orleans, as recounted in OTR.
Of
course, it's no big secret that NC came from a deprived and delinquent
background
and that this was an integral part of his own legend as
mythologized
by JK- his car thefts, etc. From what I have read so far,
especially
in OFF THE ROAD, the memoirs of his widow Carolyn, he was a
complex
and many-faceted personality, with pronounced conflicts, in the
"beautiful
loser" vein, a reckless trouble-magnet, romantic, family & steady
job
lover and tragic martyr all in one.
Artistically, he had much more of an
impact
as a subject of JK, Allen Ginsberg
& Ken Kesey/Tom Wolfe than from
his own
fragmented and small output. A
disturbing phenomenon indispensable
to the
Beats' development but ultimately consumed by the very legend they
cultivated
and his own demons.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:55:37 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: HOWL question--help!
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have
a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
Lights
Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
Towards
the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:
"with
mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
my
students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
One
wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right
letter
to asterisk ratio.
do the
asterisks appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???
who
placed them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?
thanks
for any info you can provide...anyone out there.
Steve
R. Smith
Department
of English
Pacific
University
Forest
Grove, OR
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:13:08 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: suspicious, but perhaps
unfounded.]
In-Reply-To: <33C254E3.3A72AFE6@scsn.net>
Mime-Version:
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Was
this really relevent?
You
could not send this to the person who requested it directly?
of
course not.
At
10:55 AM 7/8/97 -0400, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>My
post that lead to Lisa's flame.
>
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclawMessage-ID:
<33B83305.BF9B50CB@scsn.net>
>Date:
Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:28:21 -0400
>From:
"R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
>Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz kirby
>X-Mailer:
Mozilla 4.0b4 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version:
1.0
>To:
Mail to BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Subject:
suspicious, but perhaps unfounded.
>X-Priority:
3 (Normal)
>Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>
>Has
anyone on the list ever heard of Diane De Rooy. I ran a 411 search
>and
turned up nothing. I ran one on my
email address and got me. So, I
>am
very curious about this. I know that
there have been phantom posts
>from
aol before and that Jerry C. smoked some of those out. If Diane is
>a
real person, I apologize to her, but this post seems very suspicious
>and
the timing makes it even more so. I
apologize, for an off topic
>post.
>
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
--
Lisa M.
Rabey
Simunye
Design
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
---------------------------------
words...1000's
of words...wrapped together like wire
how
easy it would be to hate you, and yet that is all
I can
show you. Nothing lasts forever. -me
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:30:16 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970708104841.15940A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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Steve
Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>I
have a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
>Lights
Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
>
>Towards
the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:
>
>"with
mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
>
>my
students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
>One
wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the right
>letter
to asterisk ratio.
It is
"fucked" in the original drafts (see p.31 of *Howl: Facsimile
Edition*). But asterisks (only 3) are inserted in a
later draft (see p.
42). Every published copy I have seen uses the
asterisks--and, as you
note,
uses exactly 6 of them.
On p.
131 of the Facsimile Edition, Ginsberg says in his annotations to
that
line: "Author replaced letters
withe asterisks in final draft of poem
to
introduce appropriate element of uncertainty."
Tony
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Oh,
mechanical men. They walk around, they
set the table
and
don't say nothin'. They bring you your
underwear and
they
put you to bed. They take out a cigar
and smoke cigars.
They
stand there and watch you. Mechanical
men. Christ, they
wash
windows, shovel snow, give you a cigar, put out the lights.
And
then they wave Good Night."
--Larry
Green
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:45:28 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
Comments:
To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970708104841.15940A-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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steve
as far
as i know the asterisks appear in all editions, in fact the reading
of howl
that is on the "holy soul jelly roll" box set, hasginsberg read
the
line as "with mother finally asterisked, and the last fantastic book
flung
out". im sure that after the obscenity trial, and the approval of
so much
of what is said and the way it is stated in howl, that the ******
is not
a censoring job, but rather the way it was written. ( and those
asterisks,AS
asterisks could be more along the lines of "silenced" or
"marginalized"
as opposed to necessarily an "obscenity" - use the
asterisks
as symbols for asterisks and what they do, as opposed to
asterisks
as replacements...?)
just a
few thoughts, as i have wondering the same about that strange, ut
of
character punctuation, in howl.
yrs
derek
On Tue,
8 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> I
have a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
>
Lights Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
>
>
Towards the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:
>
>
"with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
>
> my
students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
>
One wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the
right
>
letter to asterisk ratio.
>
> do
the asterisks appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???
>
who placed them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?
>
>
thanks for any info you can provide...anyone out there.
>
>
Steve R. Smith
>
Department of English
>
Pacific University
>
Forest Grove, OR
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:49:47 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Neal
Comments:
To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997070813405164@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
bill
certainly
a very conscious effort i think on behalf of several beat
authors
(esp. ginsberg) in creating myth. the repitition of stories and
tales,
the idolizing of freinds and situations thru lit & poetry - almost
brings
to mind greek & oral storytelling. creation of myth thru repitition
of
stories, passed around the fire and thru everyday life. replacing the
myth of
"america the just" (or whatevr) with myth of the individual ad the
group.
creation of the XX C paul bunyan & his big blue ox?
beat as
american mythmaking?
yrs
derek
On Tue,
8 Jul 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
Kerouac certainly paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a
>
mistake to only focus on Neal Cassady, the human being. Kerouac is
>
turning Neal into a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his
>
life. Whether or not Neal was really
heroic is the wrong question to
>
ask. A more appropriate question is
what does Dean Moriarty or Cody
>
stand for.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:58:53 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: My reply then patricia adds 2cents
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Diane
De Rooy wrote:
>
>
I'm not going to debate Gerry Nicosia here on the list. I can't see any
compelling reason why there should be another
polarizing flame war like the
previous one.
>
patricia writes
I did
not find geralds response to you as a flame, i saw it as a
resonable
presentation of what was contained in his archive. i found
mayos
assertion that no original material being there rather bizarre.
d wrote
>
Nor am I going to defend my research into the story I'm currently writing. I
will continue my research, in person and over
the telephone, and if I am fed
alleged "misinformation" by any
interview subjects, I will allow for fair
response from dissenting parties.My interest
has always been in writing an
objective accounting of a very> emotional
issue. For the record, I don't have
any intention at this time of
including information about Gerry's archive
at all. That's not my
story,
and it's already been reported upon by others. I don't profess to
be an
expert on the contents of that collection. If Martha Mayo is not
being
truthful, that's for Gerry and Martha to work out. I have no
reason
to trust my life to either of them.
patricia
writes
you
posted one side of an account of geralds archives to this public
forum.
You ve trusted some of your credibility as a reporter to how you
report
and what. i don not mean to be
insulting i feel you were hoping
to
balance some of the information.
> d
wrote
> I
posted that partial interview to the BEAT-L list simply to demonstrate what
sort of information one can get when going to
a "source," rather than solely
listening to emotional hyperbole.
patricia
writes
i hope
that the phrase emotional hyperbole is not in refernce to gerald
in
regard to his own archives.
d wrote
Martha Mayo confirmed what Rod Anstee had
asked Gerry to explain: that
there
are, in fact, photocopies of letters from authors which came from
other
collections, in Gerry's research archive. I certainly welcome your
questions
and comments, challenging and informative. I have no interest
in this
particular archive issue, except as a footnote to the larger
story
of the disposition of jack kerouac's writings. All I ask is that
people
contact me directly, and don't use the BEAT-L list to argue this
thing.
patricia
writes
i felt
no desire to take this off the beat list since it is list
related. You stated that mayo said that there were no
original material
in the
archives and then you restate that somehow that was only a
confirmation
of rod anstees assertions. I do not mean this post as a
flame
but to post to the list such personal conclusions and then beg no
list
postings in response underestimates the population you are
addressing..
I plan to stay civil but open. I have no knowledge of miss
mayo or
gerald as persons that would sway me but the history of my own
writing
leads me to think no original material
in gn's archives isn't
likely.
> d
wrote
>
Again, please know that you are all welcome to comment or send feedback to me
> at
ddrooy@aol.com or membabe@aol.com.
>
>
Diane De Rooy
patricia writes
i
sincerely hope that no war results from this as the last one was
creepy
and boring. but i am uncomfortable with
off list clarifications
of what
one really meant when speaking of a third party and his
reputation
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 13:01:47 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
Comments:
To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Steve
Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> I
have a quick question about a line in HOWL. I'm working with the City
>
Lights Pocket Poets edition 28th printing 1976.
>
>
Towards the end of section I of the poem, here is the line:
>
>
"with mother finally ******, and the last fantastic book flung out"
>
> my
students asked me what the asterisks mask out---but I couldn't answer.
>
One wondered if missing word might be "fucked." well, it has the
right
>
letter to asterisk ratio.
>
> do
the asterisks appear in most current printings/editions of the poem???
>
who placed them there? ginsberg? ferlinghetti?
That's
a very interesting question. There's no mention of it in the
Dharma
Lion biography.
It's a
curious little omission, cos all through the rest of Howl
Ginsberg
is uncensored ("who let themselves be fucked in the ass",
"vision
of ultimate cunt and come eluding the last gyzm of
consciousness").
I have
three recordings of Ginsberg reading Howl...on the Holy Soul
Jelly
Roll version (Berkeley '56) he says "fucked"; on the Kronos cd
('96)
he says "asterisked"; and on the original Howl lp ('59) there's
nothing,
just a sloppy edit (ruining his vocal rhythm) where he
undoubtedly
said "fucked."
Could
it be that Allen, in this incredible purging of his soul, censored
this
line himself out of respect for his mother Naomi, who was still
alive
at the time? But if that was the reason, why did he say "fucked"
at the
public readings? I think in the end he probably put the asterisks
in for
his father's benefit. Louis hated Allen's frequent use of
profanity
(he was outraged over the language in Kaddish, mainly the
"pubic
beard" line) and with this being Allen's first major published
work,
Allen probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling
confident
enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there
to
scrutinize him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in
the '96
recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the
decision
that the asterisks should remain where they were and he
wouldn't
associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,
with
gutter language.
That's
just me speculating, I could be wrong!
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 12:17:30 -0700
Reply-To: B medeiros
<brianpm@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: B medeiros
<brianpm@UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
Mime-Version:
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Regarding
the asterisks in "Howl", I was thinking that there may be a
linguistic
influence. The asterisk mark in
linguistics signals a
grammatically
incorrect passage/fragment, perhaps these asterisks are
marking
"mother" as being incorrect, or her actions as incorrect. Then
again,
this Linguistic convention may not have been adopted until after AG
wrote
"Howl."
Just
giving options,
Brian
Medeiros
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:42:21 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
In-Reply-To:
<199707081917.MAA28789@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
MIME-Version:
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I think
the Howl asterisks are funny -- here he lets it all hang out, pages
and
pages of obscene smut (oh whoops they proved it had literary value,
right?)
and there's this one line no dirty word there just ****** who knows
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:34:06 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Neal
well
put, Neal/Cody takes the place of the icons used since the dawn of time
to
explain who and what we are and what kind of greatness lies in Everyman,
regardless
of how "human" he is.
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Bill Gargan
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 1997 10:37 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Neal
Kerouac
certainly paints Neal in heroic strokes but I think it's a
mistake
to only focus on Neal Cassady, the human being. Kerouac is
turning
Neal into a symbol if you will, making a mythology out of his
life. Whether or not Neal was really heroic is the
wrong question to
ask. A more appropriate question is what does
Dean Moriarty or Cody
stand
for.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 16:17:32 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: God
Reply
to message from thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU of Mon, 07 Jul
>
>On
Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
>>
Why the hell does everyone seem to need to have god be a human being with
>>
magical powers... aren't we capable of expanding our imaginations/awareness a
>>
little beyond our own puny little selves?
>>
>>
Ciao,
>>
Sherri
>>
>i
couldn't agree more. i've often said as
much to friends and collegues.
>to
me, God isn't corporeal. I don't
picture God as corporeal. in fact,
>to
me, it's impossible to picture God at all.
The fact that we even
>attempt
to name God is puzzling. God is a mind
more powerful than we
>can
even begin to conceive. Maybe.
>Jenn
Thompson
"If
God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him"
Voltaire (??)
"If
Lemons did not exist, it would be necessary to invent them."
Stoppard (as in Tom, of Rosen &
Guil are Dead Fame)
Diane.
(H)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi
A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:56:19 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: hello again back from vacation, etc
Mime-Version:
1.0
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hello
yall
i just
thought i would drop a note to all here saying that im back from
vacation
if anyone is trying to get a hold of me or whatever. spent 10
days in
montreal and (to keep it all beat related, etc) met up with
beat-L's
very own Antoine Maloney, spent a great afternoon/evening
wandering
around his bookshelves, talking, drinking wine, wandering for
bookstores
on ste-catherine and generally talking and meeting eachotehr in
person
(only person from beat-L that ive actually MET in the flesh. pretty
damn
fun)going on at the same time i was there was the Ontreal
interational
jazz festival (of which i didnt get achance to take in
anything,
latho i heard they had a great turn out) as well as an
incredible
show at the musee des beaux-arts de montreal entitles "exiles &
emigrees:
artists who fled hitler 1933-1941" which included ( and hense
the
beat connection) early dadaist andre breton (surrealist) and kurt
schwitters
(of "merz" and collage fame). its a great show if anyone out
there
gets a chance to take it in (i dont think its travelling
tho, so you'll have to trip up to montreal).
schwitters and bretons (as
well as
the ther dadaists, like tristan tzara) had a huge influence on
wsburroughs
and his cut-up method and the way that he approached cut-up as
anti-lit.
(altho it could be argued that his exposure & enthusiasm for
dada
could be justification after the fact for his cut-up, i dont know
that he
was exposed to them before he started his own work with cut-up,
but was
exposed early on none the less).
great
show. great vacation. great day w/ antoine. great city.
gadzooks
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 17:46:07 +0000
Reply-To:
"neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "neudorf@discovland.net"
<neudorf@DISCOVLAND.NET>
Subject: Mythmaking
MIME-Version:
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derek
wrote:
>
the repitition of stories and tales, the idolizing of freinds and situations
>
thru lit & poetry - almost brings to mind greek & oral storytelling.
sounds
good
JN
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:31:09 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cody Part 2
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this
whole time i was reading this i kept thinking about the comments
posted
about Burroughs warning Jack about "cody" and kept thinking that
this
was something of a reply to WSB - not for WSB but for Jack and the
rest of
the world - to try and understand why "cody" was the way
"cody"
was.
but
i also
got this yucky feeling the whole time like i was supposed to feel
for
"cody" b/c he'd had such a hard life and all that.....
i think
charley's remark about the inversion of the hustler-hero labels
pretty
fascinating. i think he has a definite
point. one person's
hustler
is another's hero and vice versa and maybe the whole idea of
labeling
hustlers and heroes and creating legends(and victims) icons and
myths
is ............ feudal, futile ??????
no
clue. started Part 3.
both
seem much less Mythic in the dialogues.
i
wanted to color code my book for sections written on different drugs
different
colors but didn't know where to start......
oops
got to go change the laundry i tend to forget about things like
that. oops that was chatroom so delete that
sentence.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:18:58 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: opium=buddha of the masses
Comments:
To: race@midusa.net
In a
message dated 97-07-08 14:52:20 EDT, you write:
<<
it is nice to dream again. i can attest to that. funny funny dreams.
>>
i just
bought William burroughs' latest novel.."my education, a book of
dreams".
I
actually went to the store to buy Visions of Codeine but felt a draw toward
the
"B" section in the fiction aisle and I couldn't resist. And i spent my
money
on bill, again. i feel like as long as
there are books of his (WSB) i
haven't
yet read, buying Kerouac would be a waste. gotta haul my ass over to
the
Library in the mornin' and cross my fingas there's VOC somewhere between
the
harlequin romances and the childrens books in that pathetic excuse for a
library.
------maya
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 10:47:54 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody Part 2
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
this whole time i was reading this i kept thinking about the comments
>
posted about Burroughs warning Jack about "cody" and kept thinking
that
>
this was something of a reply to WSB - not for WSB but for Jack and the
>
rest of the world - to try and understand why "cody" was the way
"cody"
>
was.
>
>
but
> i
also got this yucky feeling the whole time like i was supposed to
>
feel
>
for "cody" b/c he'd had such a hard life and all that.....
>
> i
think charley's remark about the inversion of the hustler-hero labels
>
pretty fascinating. i think he has a
definite point. one person's
>
hustler is another's hero and vice versa and maybe the whole idea of
>
labeling hustlers and heroes and creating legends(and victims) icons
>
and
>
myths is ............ feudal, futile ??????
>
Maybe,
but let's go from there to what Bill posted earlier about "Whether
or not
Neal is really heroic is the wrong question to ask. A more
appropriate
question is what does Dean Moriarty or Cody stand for."
Hero or
not, lets assume Cody is the main character and ask the question,
what
does he stand for? What is at the
center of the myth Kerouac is
creating. First of all you have someone who grew up in
pretty dire
circumstances,
son of a bum, drunk, who in reform school has a dream that
if only
he educates himself, reads enough books, will avoid a similar
plight. But, as of yet nothing about formal
schooling only
self-education
from library books. He hangs out in
poolhalls, bars,
drives
fast cars fast, steals cars, has girls wherever he goes, loves
jazz,
uses lots of different drugs, travels incessantly back and forth
across
the country, has a family but isn't what many would call
responsible
about it, we have some stuff coming up about how he's never
home
when he should be, always out partying with other women and his wife
is
constantly yelling at him about it.
Here
somewhere lies the difference between beaten and beatific.
In K's
somewhat inomancticized version of this story, which we are
reading,
does Cody stand for some inversion of the American dream where
indomitable
spirit and disparity go hand in hand?
For all his desires to
be
otherwise, Cody still stands more or less on the wrong side of the
tracks,
finding joy. life in simple pleasures but not really ever casting
America
off his back. Anyone got some more
thoughts here?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 11:03:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Part III still going
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This
part of the book definitely takes some persistence. I noted two
things
in the last several pages that seems to sum up where we are.
pg. 156
CODY: You're not gonna get hardly any of this
recorded you know
JACK: Well, that's the sadness of it all
pg. 159
JIMMY:
You're now a profound thinker
CODY: Man, no, I'm just--
JIMMY: You're just found
CODY: --trying to remember what transpired before
the beginning of that
there cigarette
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:35:19 -0400
Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
Subject: no reason!
today i
say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It said,
"best
minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
I mean,
if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it? oh, for
chrissake. Maybe there's reason to despair after all.
3 young
people my age were brutally murdered in the Starbucks across the
street
from where i work in DC.
I
bought WSB's book of dreams today. I
guess i can now find out what makes
his
dreams good and mine....well....undesirable to Beat-l.
My dry
eyes ache for somewhere to bleed to
But
you're all out of kleenex tonight.
If
anyone is interested in continuing to receive my posts or in staying in
touch
please let me know. Otherwise i will no
longer post anything that
doesn't
have the word "Ginsberg", "Burroughs", or
"Kerouac" in it. I'm sorry
for the
inconvenience I have caused by posting my own writing and not that of
others. i see what an effort and consumption of time
it is for some people
to
click on the delete key.
am
unabashedly nasty sourpuss tonight, for no reason, and, yes, I'm taking it
out on
YOU,
love,
maya<<sick
of apologizing>>: ) : ) : ) : ) (note the ironic smiley)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:41:14 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac on Pound
Comments:
To: BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
In a
message dated 97-07-08 21:46:14 EDT, you write:
<<
we have different tastes, thank goodness, otherwise these discussions
would be pretty bland. i'm not put off by
Pound's personal views, or
even strongly offended. i could sit in front
of a tv on any given day
and see worse things labeled as pure
entertainment. i realize that a
danger, if you will, of going deep and
writing it down is that some,
well...distasteful things are revealed. isn't
that the point? this is
earth, after all, and slimy things live under
some of these good solid
rocks. to think otherwise is naive. >>
A
discussion on the boh-list might interest those on the beat-l . Not that
classification
means that much in art, but Emerson wrote:
"There
are two classes of poets--the poets by education and practice, these
we
respect; and poets by nature, these we love."
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:46:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
In a
message dated 97-07-08 22:06:51 EDT, you write:
<<
But what if I encountered one of
his '60's cut-up novels in a vacuum with no
context as to how he arrived at
it, what came before or after? >>
Arthur:
In your
message to Michael you mentioned some of Ginsberg poems that sank to
Bathos,
that did happen even with AG. Also you may not have caught Burroughs
unless
you had a background. I don't know the exact passage or text, but I
would
disagree as an artist that you have to have the "surround" before you
can
detect great writing.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:54:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ******
I
recall Allen saying something about taking that word out about his mother.
It may
have been between the time he and Louis and his other relatives
visited
us in Cherry Valley, and the time he gave Pam a poetry manuscript
when we
had lunch with his stepmother. Also I think he was aware of his
father's
feelings. He talked it lightly and one of us may have mentioned it
ruined
the alliteration.
During
my time with the beats we usually didn't regard our discussions as
documents.
At least I didn't though there was always a sense of history being
made.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:20:12 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: no reason!
In-Reply-To:
<970708233513_-1427488426@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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At 8:35
PM -0700 7/8/97, Maya Gorton wrote:
> am
unabashedly nasty sourpuss tonight, for no reason, and, yes, I'm taking it
>
out on YOU,
Take it
out Maya-o. take it out.
There's
a ballpark somewhere.
It's
playing your song. <<ahem::
taking it out Maya-O
taking it out on yoU
gonna get whipped by pokka dots
i don't care if that ****** ever does
bark
cause it's root root listed in the
f.a.q.
and yes, your dreams aren't the same
as ginsberg and kerouac and what's his
luck
won't ever get breakfast at your
starbucks
cause it's root root listed in the
f.a.q.
the one where those children were
slain
a river in thailand with circus wheels
a gallons of coffee and three clips in
my brain
o Maya,
o Maya have a bawl baby
have em
all in the LOD-waiting room
walking
tall and proud and poetic
butt
you still be ugly! my darlin,
saccharine
> love,
>
maya<<sick of apologizing>>: ) : ) : ) : ) (note the ironic smiley)
LET'S
PLAY BAWL! LOD-POETS Doug :-(((((
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru
let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:47:33 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ...
In-Reply-To:
<970708235422_-1829546063@emout04.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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dear
friends,
...
with
mother finally ******, and the last fantastic
...
maybe
it so happens that Allen Ginsberg
didn't
he want another accuse of obscenity?
keep in
mind that also Jack Kerouac changed
names
with pseudonyms rightly or wrongly, to
not
offended some people characterized in his
works,
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
* a not competent beat *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:24:16 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: no reason!
Comments:
To: Marioka7@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To:
<970708233513_-1427488426@emout15.mail.aol.com> from "Maya
Gorton" at Jul 8, 97 11:35:19
pm
MIME-Version:
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>
>
today i say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties".
It said,
>
"best minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
> I
mean, if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it? oh, for
>
chrissake. Maybe there's reason to
despair after all.
Maya--Which
book on the fifties are you reading?
Ginsberg's original
draft
actually read "starving mystical naked," but he revised this in later
drafts.
I'm curious how this revision was presented in the book you're
reading--and
if it was presented as part of a discussion of revision at
all. Thanks--
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 21:46:09 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> I
don't know the exact passage or text, but I
>
would disagree as an artist that you have to have the "surround"
before
>
you
>
can detect great writing.
Charles,
I agree
that you don't need background to "detect" great writing. But
the
background or previous work sometimes lends itself to the unfolding
of
greater understanding in what is read.
Many times it provides more
levels
to what might only have been read one way by itself.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:39:19 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: JWHasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: HOWL misquoted?
Comments:
To: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>
MIME-Version:
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Maya
wrote:
today i
say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It
said,
"best
minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
I mean,
if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it? oh, for
chrissake. Maybe there's reason to despair after all.
Maya:
That's
from the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I
made
the same mistake a while back.
John
Hasbrouck
--
***
JOHN HASBROUCK
***
Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago
***
http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:20:56 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody Part 2
Diane:
Here
are my thoughts on your CODY PART 2 post from 7/9/97 9:32:58EDT:
As I
mentioned on an earlier posting that you may have seen, Neal was a
contradictory
character to say the least, as established in the
unromanticized
biographical writings, especially OFF THE ROAD, by his widow
Carolyn. His contradictory impulses were
irreconcilable and at odds with
each
other, in the "beautiful loser" tradition where he wanted his
"home and
security"
and wanted "to live like a sailor at sea" (or a bat out of hell
driving
on the road, etc.), as Bob Seger would belt out. The extremity of
how far
he went with his contradictory inclinations is I think one of the
sources
of JK and the other Beats' fascination with him- the sheer energy
with
which he conducted his perilously complex life, the reckless audacity,
never
saying no to anyone or anything, blew them away in and of itself. JK's
romanticizing
and mythologizing of NC as Cody, Dean, etc. can on one level be
seen as
simply a celebratory description of this phenomenon, even with an
implicit
understanding of the ultimate irreconcilability and consequential
irresponsibility
of his behavior.
What
ingredients created the explosive combination that burned so brightly
and
impressed so many as to create a legend?
We can never know the answer
fully,
but there is enough evidence to come to some speculative conclusions.
Certainly, NC's traumatic childhood must be a
key factor- I think his father
both
represented a certain attractive freedom and self-determination while at
the
same time failed him and caused him to suffer the consequences of
parental
irresponsibility- the line was crossed between freedom and being
left
out in the cold. His closeness to and
bonding with his father fused
these
two aspects into a personality where they uneasily co-existed within
and
were acted out by him, with rollercoaster results for himself and all the
others
in his life. Interestingly, at least
one of his sons, as interviewed
in
LITERARY KICKS, seems to have it together and perhaps broken the cycle.
Anyway, this is just my speculation, NC's
kaleidescopic case is best left to
the
psychologists, such as my wife.
JK's
take on NC in OTR, VOC and elsewhere should not, in my opinion, be
received
as some guide or lessons about how to live or a judgement, good bad
or
indifferent, about NC's conduct- it is ART and POETRY extracted from LIFE.
When I first read OFF THE ROAD, it made me
appreciate the very unromantic
consequences
of the behavior that JK romanticizes, for those left behind.
But upon further reflection, as I have said
above, I think that JK & co. are
not
making excuses for or validating NC, or their own complicity with him, no
one is
more or less qualified for that, what they have done is presented a
picture
that we can all interpret or just enjoy the ride.
I'll
reply to your 7/8/97 1:56:05 EDT message from yesterday separately to
you
personally, in respect of the perimeters that have been set for this
List.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:54:34 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: God
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970707180941.0069b81c@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
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At
18.09 07/07/97 -0400, Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU> wrote:
> There is no "God." Case
closed. --Sara
...
eli
eli lamma lamma sabachtani
... --allen ginsberg, howl, I
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 08:19:51 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Michael Stutz: Who -vs- What
In-Reply-To: <33C31791.4363@together.net>
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At 9:46
PM -0700 7/8/97, Diane Carter wrote:
>
Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
>
> I don't know the exact passage or text, but I
>
> would disagree as an artist that you have to have the "surround"
before
>
> you
>
> can detect great writing.
>
>
Charles,
>
> I
agree that you don't need background to "detect" great writing. But
>
the background or previous work sometimes lends itself to the unfolding
> of
greater understanding in what is read.
Many times it provides more
>
levels to what might only have been read one way by itself.
Duchamp
at one point gave up art and decided upon a life of chess. He'd
lied of
course. The act of designation by the artist was enough to make
something
an "art object". [see
readymades]
As far as appreciation goes, yes, the artist,
were he a single drop of
water,
a single drop of water hinged somewhere and descending, suddenly to
hit a
concrete surface... well, the sound might not be that interesting.
the
resonance might not carry that far.
poor little artist might not even
get
absorbed into the ground. till the next
drop falls. and the next drop.
and
that first step, that first instance of surround. that single
perception
of duality, of outside paradoxes, *that appreciation of levels.
=well,
that's enough of a foundation for anyone.
to be an artist.
people
have the power. Douglas <<ahem: ginsberg, kerouac,
burroughs>>
> DC
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:39:10 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
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Adrien
writ:
><<work,
Allen probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling
>confident
enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there
>to
scrutinize him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in
>the
'96 recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the
>decision
that the asterisks should remain where they were and he
>wouldn't
associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,
with
gutter language.>>
yes,
and this written omission, this disruptive poetic mistake, this
outside
control over his own mind and work; surely Ginsberg recognized
and
respected how it lived a life of its own.
The asterisks were public
property
[riddled with private thoughts]. and
in their benign
simplicity
must have been a great supporter. The
respect for others,
within
himself. The ability to censor, what
power! In the hands of a
poet! and scholar!
>[[exploring
the grey areas, making semi-intentional "mistakes" --
>publically]]
for the
purpose of discourse. the act of being
human. ***** what a
great
process!
>>
That's just me speculating, I could be wrong!
>>
Adrien
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:42:01 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
Adrien writ:
>
> ...in his old age Allen had probably come to the
>
> >decision that the asterisks should remain where they were and he
>
> >wouldn't associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest
regard,
>
> with gutter language.>>
>
>
>
> >> Adrien
>
patricia writes
> i
don't know if allen did consider the word fucked as gutter language
> i could see him using the **** out of respect for his parents feelings but
i
don't see him having or sharing those
supposted feelings about the word fucked.
just to be puckish i like that dear old word
fucked, see as a verb with verve.
Now he might have but he might of left the
***s out of a sense of the history
or just liked to see people try and pronounce
it.
p
>
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:44:16 -0400
Reply-To: Goose Bumping Records
<frsn@INTAC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Goose Bumping Records
<frsn@INTAC.COM>
Subject: Beat Writing Contributions
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I've
been on this list for a couple of weeks, and would now like to
contribute
to it. My name's Steve Voss, and I have
recently completed my
High
School Senior Project, a web site devoted to the Beat Generation,
while
it's no Literary Kicks, I am proud of it, and interested in
expanding
it. One way I would like to do so is
with writing
contributions
from writers today. So, what I'm
asking, is if anyone has
something
that they've written that they're especially proud of, and
would
like to see published on the web, to please send it to me, in a
.txt
file, or simply via e-mail at this address.
The
address of the page is http://www.geocities.com/~beatgeneration/
Thanks
for your time,
Steve
Voss
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:05:34 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: cody II
Comments:
To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
not much discussion about cody part 2; wonder if it is because there is a
>
sense of been there/read that before.
That's
probably the truth, instead of first impressions it's more like
third
or fourth impressions for me.
>
what i see here is JK's edgy am i
hero/am i narrator thread which is seen
>
more clearly here than in OTR.also, in
the face of the visionary cody, he
>
wishes he were bigger smarter faster ...
Good
point. He always asks himself this question...it's in every book.
He
always seemed to beat himself up with those thoughts, always wanted
to run,
enjoy life, DO instead of merely observe, but home always pulled
him
back just enough to not let him pursue that to the fullest.
In part
2 Jack is paralleling Neal's (ewps, I mean Cody) early life with
his
own. He describes Cody wooing girls, slyly conning his new friends,
and
showing his athletic prowess (another high point: the football
scene!).
On the oter hand, Jack is moping around, wishing he did this n
that,
and he describes his own sorry attempt at getting on the ship,
hoping
to start a new adventure that would end up in Indochina...well,
it's
the usual wishful thinking on his part, big big plans but never
following
through on them.
Jack's
insecurities are right there for everyone to see in part 2. Above
all
else is his insecurity with women. Every so often he regales us with
semi-boastful
tales of who he fucked, who he wished he fucked, etc.
Seems
to obsess about it a bit too much, making it look like he was
desperately
trying to cover up his inadequacy with women (another part
of his
hero-worshipping of Neal/Cody...Mr. Cassady/Pomeray the famous
cocksman
and adonis of Denver).
The
best example of this writing is his big spiel about the two racy
photos...he
totally loses himself in the photos as he stands on the
street
on Times Square, standing there with all the other older lechers.
It's an
interesting piece cos it's so unlike anything Jack ever wrote,
sort of
from a dirty old man's point of view (he's no Henry Miller!),
contrasting
from his incredibly romantic few weeks with the Mexican girl
a few
years earlier, and his self-imposed "chastity" vow during his
mid-fifties
Buddhist period. His breast obsession starts to get a bit
funny
and he seems to notice it himself:
"pulled
cloth down but only one end so that instead of one-fourth upper
left of
a breast showing (with valley) now we see three-fifths full
upper
breast with valley expanding-Ah those gorgeous breasts-I stand
here
among the religious dirty old men of the world, chewing gum, like
them,
with a horrible beating heart-I can hardly think or control
myself-"
(p.76)
[five
minute pause to rescue a cute little mousey from our basement
window
well]
anyway,
where was I?
Jack's
description of him and other men holding up traffic just to look
at a
photo in a window is not only funny, but also hints at his feelings
of
inadequacy and lack of confidence with women. he always did his best
writing
either alone or with guys around, funny enough.
As for
his pitiful struggle to get on the S.S. John Adams, he describes
meeting
the ship again in California. In Lonesome Traveler there's a
piece
called Piers of the Homeless Night, and I think it further
describes
that same L.A. sojourn. It's an absolutly hilarious piece
about
his running around town with Henri Cru (Deni Bleu) and how Deni
hooks
Jack up with someone who'll give him a gun, and tells him to meet
the
ship and "cover" Deni as he tries to escape two sailors who want to
kill
him. I think that's the same trip, and I suggest anyone who hasn't
read it
lately and who is reading VOC just take a break before the
grueling
part 3 (ugh, it's a little too much but barely tolerable...I
suggest
don't overanalyze it, just read it quickly and you'll get the
general
idea) and have a nice larf courtesy of Jack.
On to
29 Russell street and part 3...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:29:18 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL misquoted?
Reply
to message from jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM of Wed, 09 Jul
>
>Maya
wrote:
>
>today
i say Howl misquoted in a horrible book called "The Fifties". It
>said,
>"best
minds of my generation starving mystical naked" etc.....
>I
mean, if he had written THAT, it wouldn't be GOOD, would it? oh, for
>chrissake. Maybe there's reason to despair after all.
>
>Maya:
>That's
from the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I
>made
the same mistake a while back.
>
>John
Hasbrouck
I
thought Ginsberg "bragged" that teh first part of Howl was written
without
revision....or did the writers of those nasty time/life articles
from
teh fifties try to play up a no-revision poem to "prove" how horrible
NORMAL
society thought it was?....
Diane.
(H)
--
Life is
weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi
A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:38:40 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: cody 2
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arthur
you continue to delight me since climbing aboard this ship of fools.
having
just re-read the first third by casady in reading section II, i was
struck
at how many traumatic, never mind downtrodding incidents formed his
early
life. not being able to jump off a freight cab in the freezing dark,
father
on the rails, days getting back, of being smothered in the hollywood
style
bed, the stark deprivation and the busy mind and tough survior
explorer
of everything he could in life. and the sociopathy, who could have
survived
such a childhood with out developing the mindset and behaviors
which
caused such a split in personality/as seen by friends and others.
What
ingredients created the explosive combination that burned so brightly
and
impressed so many as to create a legend?
We can never know the answer
fully,
but there is enough evidence to come to some speculative conclusions.
Certainly, NC's traumatic childhood must be a
key factor- I think his father
both
represented a certain attractive freedom and self-determination while at
the
same time failed him and caused him to suffer the consequences of
parental
irresponsibility- the line was crossed between freedom and being
left
out in the cold. His closeness to and
bonding with his father fused
these
two aspects into a personality where they uneasily co-existed within
and
were acted out by him, with rollercoaster results for himself and all the
others
in his life. Interestingly, at least
one of his sons, as interviewed
in
LITERARY KICKS, seems to have it together and perhaps broken the cycle.
Anyway, this is just my speculation, NC's
kaleidescopic case is best left to
the
psychologists, such as my wife.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:35:11 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Wed blues.
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priest
confessor
u get
married
my confessor
an angel
has pissed
on my head
my imaginary
friend
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:58:15 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: HOWL misquoted?
In-Reply-To:
<199707092029.QAA13993@piglet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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At
04:29 PM 7/9/97 -0400, Diane M. Homza wrote:
>>Maya:
>>That's
from the first draft of HOWL. Consult the facsimile edition. I
>>made
the same mistake a while back.
>>
>>John
Hasbrouck
>
>I
thought Ginsberg "bragged" that teh first part of Howl was written
>without
revision....or did the writers of those nasty time/life articles
>from
teh fifties try to play up a no-revision poem to "prove" how horrible
>NORMAL
society thought it was?....
>Diane.
(H)
>
>--
>Life
is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
>--Heidi
A. Emhoff
Diane--I
think it's the latter. This is why I
asked Maya if the book she
was
reading simply misquotes an early draft as if it were a final draft . .
. or
whether the book actually takes Ginsberg's revisions as seriously as
he
did. From my own research--and from
what I've read in a few others
(Miles
& Schumacher included)--Ginsberg's was as serious about revision as
most
professional writers are, and he understood revision to be compatible
with
maxims like "First Thought, Best Thought."
Tony
******************************************************************
"The
beetles are the beetles. They clean up
all the vermin. They're
not
very friendly, but they clean up all the vermin. They don't do
much
else, but they make holes in your house.
Beetles--they're like
mice,
they're like rats. They ARE rats. Beetles are alright. They
ruin a
lot of things, but they're good for us."
--William
"Fergie" Ferguson
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 17:36:10 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: asterisks
Content-Type:
text
To
elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
Transcript
& Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles (this is a
really
fine book, even though Ginsberg sometimes seems to be
providing
explanations of his allusions that seem more creative than
the
allusions themselves), the process follows this pattern:
p. 27
(draft 2): "with mother finally fucked"
p. 31
(draft 3): same as above
p. 42
(draft 4): "finally ***" (just 3, as Tony noted)
p. 53
(draft 5): same as 4
p. 58
(draft page, apparently early: "his own mother finally fucked"
In
addition to the comment Ginsberg made about the asterisks, in "Author's
Annotations"
(pp.131-32), he adds, "In a letter regarding this project
received
September 29, 1985, Carl Solomon wrote: 'Mother finally ***.
Crap.
Sorry Allen.'"
Perhaps
the asterisks reveal the power of the Oedipal taboo.
On the
other hand, a number of years ago at the Naropa Institute in
Boulder,
CO, I once specifically asked Ginsberg why he used the asterisks,
and he,
earnestly and defensively, told me, "Because it didn't really
happen."
His logic escapes me.
Methinks
the lady doth protest too much?
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
7/9/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:54:52 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
Comments:
To: baculum@mci2000.com
The
chairman of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted to
teach.
After all these years. Now that I have lost my mind.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:41:28 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Cody Bound for Glory On the Road
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In my
somewhat slower reading of VOC I finally stumbled on a reference I guess I
have
been
looking for for a long time. On p.41 (McGrawHill HB) in Jack's letter to
Cody, he
says:
"...Peaches
Martin(!) - who's back playing guitar and singing folk songs in
Village..."
Kerouac
and Cassady's interest in jazz is well-documented, and the rock
connection is
hinted
at in Kicks Joy Darkness, but would they have been aware of the folk
scene in the
40s and
50s ?
To take
it a bit further Woody Guthrie's autobiography/novel Bound for Glory
reads much
like a
down to earth kind of road experience, and again I wonder if Kerouac
would have
known/liked,
say, "This Land is Your Land" or "Pastures of Plenty"?
Guthrie
was a hobo, perhaps exactly not the kind described in "The Vanishing
American
Hobo",
but similar anyway.
And
what about Ginsberg ? He's been presented as a father figure for a young Bob
Dylan,
and he
recorded on Folkways, but would he with his more leftist political
leanings have
been
associated with, say, Pete Seeger ?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:48:03 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: HOWL! - a farewell compilation
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Does
anyone know anything about this CD titled Howl ? Does it have any
connection
with THE Howl ?
In
Europe it is released on Glitterhouse Records GRCD 352, and as far as
the
notes say there are no texts by Ginsberg, although some titles hint
at
BEAT/jazz connections: "Route 66" and "Dexter Gordon".
Featured
artists include: Giant Sand, Russ Tolman, Steve Wynn, Joe Henry,
Victoria
Williams and more.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:51:49 -0700
Reply-To: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Leroi Jones/Amiri Baraka
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To what
extent is Jones/Baraka seen as a Beat writer ?
I have
been reading "The Dutchman" and certainly references are made to a
jazzy beat
environment, but was he a part of the "circle" of beats ?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 19:26:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: another textual question--this time,
calling all hebrew-ists!
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my
students have been reading and really getting into Kaddish...
i have
done workmanlike job of trying to trace out allusions and such
that
seem fuzzy or blurry to them (and to me).
they
have asked that i get at the following line, from my page 89 of of
Portable
Beat Reader edition/version, from Part II:
Yisborach,
v'yistabach, v'yispoar, v'yisroman, v'yisnaseh,/v'yishador,
v'yishalleh,
v'yishallol, sh'meh d'kudsho, b'rich hu."
i
suspect of course that this line is from the Kaddish prayer itself--but
want to
be sure of that--and it would not be bad to get translation!!! No
dictionaries
in our little library to take me to the words in words, so
to
speak.
can
someone help? maybe the person(s) who posted the Kaddish on the list
when AG
left this meat wheel can be of special help.
also,
when searching under term "kaddish" on the web, I "learned"
that
there
is really another prayer which takes care of the notion/need for
mourning.
therefor, Kaddish of AG may be more the poem which does indeed
ask for
blessing and finally nod to power and good of god??? the good of
death,
obliteration, etc. now out of this and into the void or eternity
or
whatever?
thanks
in advance for your helps....
best
always,
steve
pacific
u.
forest
grove, oregon
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:27:41 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody Bound for Glory On the Road
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Jens
Koch wrote:
>
> In
my somewhat slower reading of VOC I finally stumbled on a reference I guess
I
> have
>
been looking for for a long time. On p.41 (McGrawHill HB) in Jack's letter to
> Cody, he
>
says:
>
"...Peaches Martin(!) - who's back playing guitar and singing folk songs
in
> Village..."
>
Kerouac and Cassady's interest in jazz is well-documented, and the rock
> connection is
>
hinted at in Kicks Joy Darkness, but would they have been aware of the folk
> scene in the
>
40s and 50s ?
> To
take it a bit further Woody Guthrie's autobiography/novel Bound for Glory
> reads much
>
like a down to earth kind of road experience, and again I wonder if Kerouac
> would have
>
known/liked, say, "This Land is Your Land" or "Pastures of
Plenty"?
>
Guthrie was a hobo, perhaps exactly not the kind described in "The
Vanishing
> American
>
Hobo", but similar anyway.
>
And what about Ginsberg ? He's been presented as a father figure for a young
Bob
> Dylan,
>
and he recorded on Folkways, but would he with his more leftist political
> leanings have
>
been associated with, say, Pete Seeger ?
Recording
for Folkways means being associated with Moses Asch (sp?) [i
have an
old copy of one of his Broadside magazines somewhere around
here] also Sis Cunningham who ran Broadside lived
on the upper west
side of
Manhattan. These were the spiritual
grandparents of the entire
New
York folk scene. It seems difficult to
believe that all of these
would
be unconnected and unknown .......
interesting
ideas and glad you pointed them out.
i'm really curious
about
it.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:34:29 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody Part 2
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Arthur
Nusbaum wrote:
>
>
JK's take on NC in OTR, VOC and elsewhere should not, in my opinion, be
>
received as some guide or lessons about how to live or a judgement,
>
good bad or indifferent, about NC's conduct- it is ART and POETRY
>
extracted from LIFE. When I first read
OFF THE ROAD, it made me
>
appreciate the very unromantic
>
consequences of the behavior that JK romanticizes, for those left
>
behind. But upon further reflection, as I have said above, I think that
>JK
& co. are not making excuses for or validating NC, or their own complicity
with him, no one is more or less qualified
for that, what they
have
done is presented a picture that we can all interpret or just enjoy
the
ride.
I agree
largely with your assessment. None of
the beats in life can be
revered
as models for having a particularly stable family life, if that
is
one's goal. It is the "art and
poetry extracted from life" that I
find
fascinating and intriguing. And that
applies to the treatment thus
far of
Cody in VOC. I guess I am wondering
about a couple of things in
the
presentation of Cody. Part II is
definitely still a romantic
presentation
of the protagonist and perhaps what is in the mind of Jack
the
writer, as Marie quoted in another post,
"...but
the main thing I suppose will be this life-long monologue which
is
begun in my mind--life lifelong complete contemplation...(do need a
recorder)...then
I could keep the most complete record in the world which
in
itself could be divided into twenty massive and pretty interesting
volumes
of tapes describing activities everywhere and excitements and
thoughts
of mad valuable to me..."
So when
you get to part three, which seems like probably the central part
of the
work, we have the tape. Cody is not
presented in a favorable way
in the
tape, he is for the most part incoherent.
Makes one wonder about
the
motive of the writer. Is this planned as an introduction to the
downside
of Cody, romanticized hero hits reality.
Or, is it supposed to
be a
recording of what Jack saw as a valuable moment in time, a bonding
of
sorts with the protaganist that still presents him in a favorable
light? Perhaps I am looking for too much, but there
seems to be some
planned
order to the way things unfold.
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:48:24 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: cody 2
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>
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>
having just re-read the first third by casady in reading section II, i
>
was struck at how many traumatic, never mind downtrodding incidents
>
formed his early life. not being able to jump off a freight cab in the
>
freezing dark, father on the rails, days getting back, of being
>
smothered in the hollywood style bed, the stark deprivation and the
>
busy mind and tough survior explorer of everything he could in life
>
and the sociopathy, who could have survived such a childhood with out
>
developing the mindset and behaviors which caused such a split in
>
personality/as seen by friends and others.
It
often makes me wonder though, given his childhood, why NC did not in
fact
turn out the opposite of his father.
Why he didn't have an aversion
to the
freedom of the rail, or automobile cross-country wanderings, the
rollercoaster
type of life that was so traumatic for himself.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 20:01:52 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: HOWL question--help!
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The
times I have heard Howl in person (late 60's) and on tape is was
"fucked". I find it hard to visualize AG seeing the
word as obscene,
given
the descriptions of Naomi in Kaddish. I
think you come up with a
valiant
explanation of the asterisks, maybe as good as there is, but
maybe
he saw the asterisks as letting the reader fill in the blanks and
being
as graphic as he or she felt like being, or to be a little cute
and
ironic.
J
Stauffer
Adrien
Begrand wrote:
. . .
I think in the end he probably put the asterisks
> in
for his father's benefit. Louis hated Allen's frequent use of
>
profanity (he was outraged over the language in Kaddish, mainly the
>
"pubic beard" line) and with this being Allen's first major published
>
work, Allen probably didn't want to upset his father, despite feeling
>
confident enough to read it publicly (probably cos his dad wasn't there
> to
scrutinize him!). It's interesting to hear him say "asterisked" in
>
the '96 recording...in his old age Allen had probably come to the
>
decision that the asterisks should remain where they were and he
>
wouldn't associate his beloved mother, whom held in the highest regard,
>
with gutter language.
>
>
That's just me speculating, I could be wrong!
>
>
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 11:02:14 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: asterisks
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Michael
Skau wrote:
>
> To
elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
>
Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles (this is a
>
really fine book, even though Ginsberg sometimes seems to be
>
providing explanations of his allusions that seem more creative than
>
the allusions themselves), the process follows this pattern:
> p.
27 (draft 2): "with mother finally fucked"
> p.
31 (draft 3): same as above
> p.
42 (draft 4): "finally ***" (just 3, as Tony noted)
> p.
53 (draft 5): same as 4
> p.
58 (draft page, apparently early: "his own mother finally fucked"
> In
addition to the comment Ginsberg made about the asterisks, in
>"Author's
>
Annotations" (pp.131-32), he adds, "In a letter regarding this
project
>
received September 29, 1985, Carl Solomon wrote: 'Mother finally ***.
>
Crap. Sorry Allen.'"
>
Perhaps the asterisks reveal the power of the Oedipal taboo.
> On
the other hand, a number of years ago at the Naropa Institute in
>
Boulder, CO, I once specifically asked Ginsberg why he used the
>
asterisks,
>
and he, earnestly and defensively, told me, "Because it didn't really
>
happen." His logic escapes me.
>
Methinks the lady doth protest too much?
>
Cordially,
>
Mike Skau
>
7/9/97
It
seems ironic but Ginsberg's comments to you make sense in light of the
way I
always interpreted the asterisks, which I read as meaning more than
fucked. I always interpreted the meaning to be with
mother finally "out
of my
head" meaning I've dealt with the "succumbed to her madness"
aspect
of
life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:57:08 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: another textual question--this time,
calling all hebrew-ists!
Comments:
To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
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Steve
Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> my
students have been reading and really getting into Kaddish...
> i
have done workmanlike job of trying to trace out allusions and such
>
that seem fuzzy or blurry to them (and to me).
>
>
they have asked that i get at the following line, from my page 89 of of
>
Portable Beat Reader edition/version, from Part II:
>
>
Yisborach, v'yistabach, v'yispoar, v'yisroman, v'yisnaseh,/v'yishador,
>
v'yishalleh, v'yishallol, sh'meh d'kudsho, b'rich hu."
>
>
can someone help?
Here's
all I can offer:
>From
Collected Poems:
"YISBORACH...B'RICH
HU: Heart of Kaddish Prayer for the dead, for
translation
see lines 1-2, "Hymmnn" section of Kaddish."
...where
we find...
"In
the world which He has created according to his will Blessed Praised
Magnified
Lauded Exalted the Name of the Holy One Blessed is He!"
Hope
that helped.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:40:25 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: asterisks
Comments:
To: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
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Michael
Skau wrote:
>
******
> To
elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
>
Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles...
I find
this an incredible thread! This, the VOC discussion, etc. must
represent
the guts of the List! I'm an intestine digesting your
incredible
Beat information. I rate this thread as intensely
informational
as "Spit in the Ocean" No. 6;
or Pam and Charles
Plymell's
posts, etc!
Thanks!
-Michael
Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:56:56 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth"
<mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization:
Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
Comments:
To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela
Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>
The chairman of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I wanted to
teach. After all these years. Now that I have
lost my mind.
>
Charles Plymell
Would you
mind elaborating... Will they possibly offer this course via
the
internet?
-Michael
Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:22:28 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: ATTN: BEAT-LIST POETS
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
>
>
>
> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> >
>
> > The chairman of an English dept. asked me to design a course that I
wanted
to
>
> teach. After all these years. Now
that I have lost my mind.
>
> > Charles Plymell
>
>
>
> Would you mind elaborating... Will they possibly offer this course via
>
> the internet?
>
>
>
> -Michael Buchenroth
>
good question
> by
the way, mr buchenroth, after all these years your little web site
>
with the exploding text has added something to my reading. kool! ouch,
> my
mind it keeps expanding.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:16:23 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: asterisks
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These
threads have been great. So good to see
all this wonderful
erudition
back at play.
The
best of list is back.
James
Stauffer
Michael
L. Buchenroth wrote:
>
>
Michael Skau wrote:
>
> ******
>
> To elaborate on Tony's post: in _Howl: Original Draft Facsimile,
>
> Transcript & Variant Versions, etc._, ed. Barry Miles...
>
> I
find this an incredible thread! This, the VOC discussion, etc. must
>
represent the guts of the List! I'm an intestine digesting your
>
incredible Beat information. I rate this thread as intensely
>
informational as "Spit in the
Ocean" No. 6; or Pam and Charles
>
Plymell's posts, etc!
>
Thanks!
>
-Michael Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:44:52 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Life after the ***th.
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ahem ahem
i aint' ready
Father
my dad's car
is
better
than
yr Dad's car
i take
note that howl by allen ginsberg is a bloody
poem
when i read times ago
i havent' the same eyes
i have now,
right! but now just when i read howl&kaddish
i see
cutted heads & blood everywhere
5.30 a.m. thu
i aint'
ready i aint' ready
i have
a vision i see i aint ready
6:00 a.m. thu
i sing
in my mind a nursery rhyme
i aint' readY!
6:00 a.m. thu
6:00 a.m. thu
6:00 am thu
6:00 am thu
---
yrs
Rinaldo. * ciao *
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:40:12 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: asterisks
In-Reply-To: <33C47E37.3021@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version:
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>These
threads have been great. So good to see
all this wonderful
>erudition
back at play.
>
>The
best of list is back.
>___________
and so
it is!
mc (who
is happy not to have touched off flame war)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:42:40 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Tape
In-Reply-To: <33C3CBA5.3DAB@together.net>
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On Wed,
9 Jul 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> So
when you get to part three, which seems like probably the central part
> of
the work, we have the tape. Cody is not
presented in a favorable way
> in
the tape, he is for the most part incoherent.
Makes one wonder about
>
the motive of the writer.
Writers
get infinitely more pleasure out of pressing REC than pressing PLAY.
Could
this simply have been "yet another" recording of the two of them that
he
arbitrarily picked for the novel? Also am I stretching here to think that
the
technology of the magnetic tape -- first available to consumers around
the
time the Beats started writing -- was an integral part of much of their
work?
We have Jack recording Neal and reading his Blues into wire tape
reels,
early Allen practicing Drakar Doldrums on tape and bringing tape in
car
across America to write Sutras, Burroughs writing extensively on the
science
of the tape recorder and later Hunter Thompson running wildly
through
the dens of politicos, rambling and mumbling incoherently into
high-tech
microcassette recorder with bystanders looking at him in
amazement,
"Like, _what_ are you doing?" To which he stops a sec to answer:
"I'm
writing."
Michael
Stutz
stutz@dsl.org
http://dsl.org/m/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:28:27 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation, etc
Derek:
Thanks
for mentioning the museum show. We are
planning a Vermont vacation
for
next month that will include a day trip to Montreal, about an hour's
drive.
As for
whether WSB had been exposed to these proto-practitioners of the cutup
method,
he may have been but he does not mention it anywhere that I'm aware
of. He credits the cutups entirely to his
longtime friend and collaborator,
the
late Brion Gysin, who in turn credits his discovery of it to a "happy
accident"
in which he inadvertantly cut up newspaper articles that were under
some
items he was working on, and was amused by the results. WSB quotes BG
as
saying "writing is 50 years behind painting" at the time (Paris Beat
Hotel
period
circa 1959), implying that his intention was to bring the techniques
of
collage, etc. found in modern visual art to writing. WSB believes that
his
experiments with the cutup method have succeeded in subverting the
"pre-recorded
universe". My own dabbling in
cutups had interesting results-
amidst
the incoherence were some scarily relevant and meaningful phrases,
like
the subconscious bobbing its head above the water to get to the deeper
crux of
a matter.
It is
possible, as with many phenomenon, that WSB & BG's discovery of cutups
was
serendipitously separate from the surrealists' and dadaists' discovery of
it
several generations earlier, the conceptual synchronicity of open-minded
visionaries.
Pleased
to meet you,
Arthur
S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:37:10 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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From: Diane Carter
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Subject:
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although
i don't think, from what i've read of him in Off theRoad (carolyn
c),
letters between JK and NC, OTR, and poems, that neal was a /the
"hero" in
the
idealized sense that he was portryed by JK and AG, but as DC said, he did
possess
a sort pf heroism. although JK and AG
accomplished worlds more in
their
writing (neal was quite a procrastinator) and careers than neal did,
neal
was the one they looked up to because he was the one who was
"living."
he went out and lived life to its fullest,
never having a moment to rest,
while ,
to some extent, JK and AG just wrote about what they saw him doing.
they let him do the living, and they
immortalized it all in their work. so
neal
was a sort of hero in living how he did and "sucking the marrow out of
life"
and the such, although in the long run, JK and AG formed a heroism of
their
own.
carpe
diem,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:56:54 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: tape
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great
story, michael, and relevant to reading of VOC transition from II to
III. at
end of part II he is wanting a "recorder" to capture everything in
the
moment.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:55:03 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation, etc
Arthur,
my
thought exactly - syncrhonicity. for
what it's worth, here at the
Exploratorium
there is an "experiment" with blocks with words on them, one
chooses
them randomly and makes phrases/sentences with them... i have,
unfortunately,
forgotten whom this notion is attributed to, but i think it was
WSB... at any rate it is uncanny how often i have
found them to have some
meaning
for what's going on in my life. if
nothing else, it definitely opens
the
mind to endless possibilities....
Thanks
for your most interesting and intelligent posts, i'm learning quite a
bit as
a result of this thread.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Arthur Nusbaum
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 1997 7:28 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation,
etc
Derek:
Thanks
for mentioning the museum show. We are
planning a Vermont vacation
for
next month that will include a day trip to Montreal, about an hour's
drive.
As for
whether WSB had been exposed to these proto-practitioners of the cutup
method,
he may have been but he does not mention it anywhere that I'm aware
of. He credits the cutups entirely to his
longtime friend and collaborator,
the
late Brion Gysin, who in turn credits his discovery of it to a "happy
accident"
in which he inadvertantly cut up newspaper articles that were under
some
items he was working on, and was amused by the results. WSB quotes BG
as
saying "writing is 50 years behind painting" at the time (Paris Beat
Hotel
period
circa 1959), implying that his intention was to bring the techniques
of
collage, etc. found in modern visual art to writing. WSB believes that
his
experiments with the cutup method have succeeded in subverting the
"pre-recorded
universe". My own dabbling in
cutups had interesting results-
amidst
the incoherence were some scarily relevant and meaningful phrases,
like
the subconscious bobbing its head above the water to get to the deeper
crux of
a matter.
It is
possible, as with many phenomenon, that WSB & BG's discovery of cutups
was
serendipitously separate from the surrealists' and dadaists' discovery of
it
several generations earlier, the conceptual synchronicity of open-minded
visionaries.
Pleased
to meet you,
Arthur
S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:06:18 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: CODY: what murder?
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There
have been a couple of references so far to something about Bull and
June
and a murder. Can't find the other
references at the moment
but
here again on page 186, we have: "...on into August, and in between
June
and August everything happened, the murder took place." Is this
ever
explicated?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:27:28 -0600
Reply-To:
"Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: hello again back from vacation, etc
Comments:
To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199707101500300776@msn.com>
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arthur/sherri/co.
well i
think that burroughs DOES mention tristan tzara and the dadaists,
esp the
cut-up work, spontaneous poems (i think he refers to tzara as the
"man
from nowhere" who was thrown off the stage for pulling random words
outta a
hat and proclaiming them poems...) and also makes reference to
"exquisite
corpse" as well as far as i know.
now while i cant remeber what book in
particular he refers to
tzara
and dada it may be in either _brion gysin let the mice in_, _the
burroughs
file_ or _interzone_. no no no wait - now i remember - try
having
a flip thru and reading _the third mind_ thats where burroughs and
gysin
went thu and kinda explained cut-up & fold in and the made to order
deja vu
that interested burroughs.
i think that both burroughs/gysin and
the dadas were interested in
breaking
down barriers on the ownership and class of art. dada as anti-art
and the
cut-up in which anyone (altho burruoghs does say that it works
best in
the hands of a "master")can create viable texts thru
"recycling"
other
pieces....
yrs
derek