=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:39:23 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
Comments:
To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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zach,
being a part of the newest "alternative" music scene, i have to agree
with
you on some points: i do agree that
genres of electronica like house
and
trance are genres without very much intellectual backing...they are,
like
you said, ways to dance your ass off, usually under the influence of
psychedelics
like E and acid...but, with the new sound coming from the UK
in the
form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,
i can
find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and
"intellectual"
music
forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...take for instance
LTJ
Bukem...don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's on the front
lines
of the drum 'n' bass explosion outta the UK...jungle is based on jazz
samples
and jazz breakbeats...as easy to chill out to, write to, and talk
above
as any jazz...to me it takes someone as creative as a Charlie Parker
or John
Coltrane to piece together various and sundry parts of a recording
and
make it as beautiful as Bukem can...
The
Prodigy? they suck...in my opinion,
anyway.
Ryan
Stonecipher
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:47:14 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Bukowski
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Ryan,
Herd a seadee kald "Bukowski",
terned mee ontoo hiz ztuf. Hee red sum
ov
hiz
poettree two uh rowdee crowd, ckepd thretnin themm, zgreat. _Post
Office_
z thferst novl eiv red fizz.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:46:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
i agree
too... SF's had a huge renaissance of the 50's/60's head space. JK
and AG
are huge here right now, drug culture more prominent, tons of head
shops,
bhuddist, metaphysical shops.... not that any of this ever disappears
completely
from SF - it's part of the natural outlook for the City, thank
god... but there has been a rather strong
proliferation of such things here.
some of
is is too gentrified and pseudo-cool...
but there's a lot more of the
real
thing now than there was during the deathly conservative Reagan years.
Haight
St. is much more heavily populated than it was then, too.
Last
year deYoung Museum did a wonderful Beat Generation exhibit, MOMA
held/Yerba
Buena Gardens held Beat symposia and poetry and, as well as prose,
readings
have multiplied a good deal.
Michael,
what's your URL?
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Michael Stutz
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 10:05 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
On Thu,
17 Jul 1997, randy royal wrote:
> in
richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
>
said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
>
everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
>
inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
>
everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
> to
do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious
>
connection later.
yup. a
common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's
addiction
"wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."
> so
all i'm really saying is that we are
>
experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
>
stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late
>
eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
yeah
agree totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site
if
"indie rock as renaissance" appeals to you.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this
information is
email
stutz@dsl.org free and may be
reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains;
it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see
<http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:51:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Michael
Stutz wrote:
>
>
yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's
>
addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one
tries."
>
boy you
hit a memory bank.
a gang
of pranksters head to Lollapalllllooooooossssssaaaa outside
Chicago
somewhere with a big EARTH thing on it.
Became symbolic later.
Decided
to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the
music
took me. The Butthole Surfers were
ending as we walked in through
the
crowds. The sounds flow over me in my
memory. I recall dancing
like
some kind of Druid prodigy until collapsing, blowing bubbles on the
lawn,
another round of crazed ritual body movements, another collapse.
i lay
on the ground not moving. I stared at
the sky searching for the
farthest
star. I remember a band named Jane's
Addiction i'd never heard
of (i
was just going along with the youngsters) coming on and beginning
to play
music with such incredible FORCE. I
left. I would not be
surprised
if i was on that farthest star. The
next thing i remember the
show is
over the crowds are filing away and my friends are circled
around
me and my old old friend Pioneer is rubbing my shoulder saying
David
are you Okay. I turned my head toward
him and smiled a smile that
said
where i'd been. He grinned. We headed for the parking lot. I'd
made a
tape for the trip thank goodness cause the parking lot was a
disaster. We sat in the minivan. First Robert Johnson sang
Crossroads. Second Eric Clapton sang Crossroads. I smiled.
It was
nice to
be home.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:03:03 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
Comments:
To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@softdisk.com>
In-Reply-To: <199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ryan, i
was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:
>although
there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is
>often
overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz
>parties
as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you
>talk,
you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about
>whatever...operative
word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the
>music.
you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance
>some
more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a
>joke
amongst those >who actually do.
i
realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.
...as
far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,
with
Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his
music.
I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,
clear
records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love
this
stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an
example
some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're
right
about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only
problem
is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,
the
west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have
been
some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for
writin'
to...
It's my
belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to
Burroughs
and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of
those
and hear roots.
babbling
off topic once again...
-z
Markup/Graphic
Design Team
Internet
Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608)
285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:01:10 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Sexuality
ok,
here's my two cents...
mostly
i think the sexuality issue is unimportant except where it perhaps
gives
insight to actions, thoughts, references in the books.
that
being said, i think that what we have here in JK, perhaps NC, too, is a
true
lover. JK fell in love with NC. doesn't really matter if they had sex
or
not. what matters is what they meant to
each other. their sexual
orientation,
from what i can gather, was mainly het.
but way beyond that was
an
ability to truly fall in love. it was
one of the things that really sent
me in
OTR - this paean of love from one man to another... something men are
extremely
reticent about, most of the time. it
blew me away and i thought it
was
beautiful. regardless of sexuality or
any of the other dynamics in the
JK/NC/AG
relationships... there was real love at one point. i think that's a
rare
and gorgeous thing and even rarer in print.
'nuff
said.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:07:50 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: NBR...jane's addiction
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jane'sAddiction
are getting back together, starting a tour Oct. 25th in San
Francisco,
for those innarested....
-z
Markup/Graphic
Design Team
Internet
Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608)
285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:11:24 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
Comments:
To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>
ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music
i was
too, in a way...didn't get my thoughts across...you are right that
raves
are mindless dance the night away affairs...in no way related to the
jazz
sessions at Birdland or places like taht in the 50's...but, there's a
club
here in town...a coffee house that has a dnb DJ that spins on
weekends...very
cool...go, drink coffee, chat amongst yrselves...that i can
compare
to those sessions...but i guess taht is the exception, not the
rule...
ryan.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:41:45 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
WSB be
thanked - but John Cage is probably the heaviest influence in that
genre...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Zach Hoon
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:03 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
ryan, i
was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:
>although
there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is
>often
overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz
>parties
as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you
>talk,
you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about
>whatever...operative
word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the
>music.
you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance
>some
more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a
>joke
amongst those >who actually do.
i
realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.
...as
far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,
with
Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his
music.
I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,
clear
records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love
this
stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an
example
some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're
right
about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only
problem
is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,
the
west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have
been
some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for
writin'
to...
It's my
belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to
Burroughs
and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of
those
and hear roots.
babbling
off topic once again...
-z
Markup/Graphic
Design Team
Internet
Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608)
285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:38:08 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey"
<lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
05:29 AM 7/12/97 UT, you wrote:
>did
City Lights, even tho da man already tole me they ain't publishin it no
>more,
just in case... checked out the used books section, too.
>
>most
beat stuff is hard to come by in used book stores round here cuz it's
>either
not there cuz folks don't wanna part wid it or cuz it gets snatched up
>PDQ. next thing is da library... haven't had a
chance to do dat yet, man.
>tomorrow
checkin at da great used bookstore a blcok from my apt. maybe i'll
>get
lucky, but only thing so far i've come up wid is nicoia's MemoryBabe.
>
>ciao,
>sherri
>
hrm,
what book are you looking for? ;>
i live
in the bay area (recent transplant) and when *i* meandered up
through
china town, eating at the chinese resaturant right down the street
from
city lights (did you get a peak at the african/antique gallery there,
incredible!)
and walked through city lights hallowed rooms and up the
stairs
to the poetry room and walked along touching the books ever so
gently
with my fingertips, i just wanted to sit down and breathe in all
history
and never leave. my ex-bf unfortunately was downstairs and doing
his
'you and your damn who-ha books', could never understand why i fall in
love
with authors like buk and burroughs.
*sigh*
we
really should have a bay area beat-l party at one point.
lisa
--
Lisa M.
Rabey
Simunye
Design
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
---------------------------------
words...1000's
of words...wrapped together like wire
how
easy it would be to hate you, and yet that is all
I can
show you. Nothing lasts forever. -me
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:29:15 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Friendship
An
interesting article: Dardess, George.
"The Delicate Dynamics of Friendship
: A
Reconsideration of Kerouac's OTR."
American Literature, vol. 46 (1974), 20
0-206. Reprinted in OTR: Text & Criticism
(Viking).
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:28:31 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
Comments:
To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33CE5B87.6024@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu,
17 Jul 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
Decided to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the
>
music took me. The Butthole Surfers
were ending as we walked in through
>
the crowds. The sounds flow over me in
my memory.
summer
of '91, first lolla 6 years ago (this year's one is in town tomorrow
i
think). man that was a great show. i was puking when the butthole surfers
were on
but by the time nin were getting off i was sober enough to stand up.
the
next year's one was a mess but snuck in at 95 for sonic youth; they were
right
on and it was one of the best shows i've ever seen.
sorry
no beat content on this one.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:51:45 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
Comments:
To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<v03007802aff3b822162f@[206.190.9.125]>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu,
17 Jul 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:
>
but i'd like to see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's
>
not 50 years behind anymore, but it sure is back there...
i don't
think so; i think it's just gotten very obscure. but definitely out
there
-- this decade has produced innumerable zines (and even some good
ones) +
a constant outpouring of lit on the net (newsgroups, lists, the web
etc).
it's out there in a major way -- it's just no getting published by
madison
avenue. fuck them anyway.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:04:01 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again -
electronica
Comments:
To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu,
17 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:
>
but, with the new sound coming from the UK
> in
the form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,
> i
can find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and
"intellectual"
>
music forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...
[snip]
> as
easy to chill out to, write to, and talk above as any jazz...
this to
me is where the slint/tortoise postrock scene is at. not even
neojazz,
not at all, but they've got enough similarities here to be like
this.
also the dronier side of indie rock: fsa, jessamine, labradford, etc
etc
that whole huge terrastock drone rock scene. none of these to me are
like
"modern jazz" or any of that, but in their own way each are
fulfilling
certain
things talked about here. i guess what i'm trying to say is that
what
the hype machine is currently calling 'electronica' isn't the only new
music
on the block...generically all of it can be called rock (but yeah this
is
where the holy wars start between some of the dance music types vs. the
rock
types), but generically... also a lot of early-mid 90s house music was
great
to chill out to (still is).
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:00:40 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
in
response to david r,
i am
curious about this only for the reason of better understanding all of
the
work they wrote and the background behind it.
i am far from a voyeur,
and do
not have any strange sexual obessions with the three, so you can
assauge
your fears.
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:58:58 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
As long
as we're on the topic of sexuality for a moment, who is H.P. in
AG's
poem, Transcription of Organ Music?
"I
remember when I first got laid, H.P. graciously took my cherry. I sat
on the
docks of Provincetown, age 23, joyful, elevated in hope with the
Father,
the door to the womb was open to admit me if I wished to enter."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:18:38 -0400
Reply-To: Bill Philibin
<deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Philibin
<deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Post Office
Comments:
To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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> Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z
red
>
itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
> _The Western Lands_ is neckst.
> Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer
xists.
>
>
James M.
>
Meye noz runz. Eye doent. ""
Is this supposed to be funny or cool?
It's a disgrace to post this to a
literary based list.
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net |
web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat
]
|"A
fractal is by definition a set for which the Hausdorff Besicovitch
|
dimension strictly exceeds the topological dimension."
|
| -- Mandelbrot, "The
Fractal Geometry of Nature"
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy
v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:42:23 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: VOC Pathos
Pg 90,
Penguin 1993 edition:
"America,
the word, the sound is the sound of my unhappiness..... It is where
Cody
Pomeray learned that people aren't good.... America made bones of a young
boy's
face adn took dark paints and made hollows around his eyes, and made his
cheeks
sink in pallid waste and grew furrows on a marble front... America's a
lonely
crockashit." (Underlining is mine - what poetry...)
here it
is: Cody and America being interchangeable in a sense... the demise
of
America is the downfall of Cody and vice versa. JK refers to the heart
reappearing
when all the salesmen die... a direct comment on the effect of
materialism
on the American dream and on the loss of youth, freedom,
happiness. heartbreaking....
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:57:33 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
Comments:
To: CVEditions@aol.com
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
05:10 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
>
><< at Gable looking at Marilyn >>
>Chopping
wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
>freeze.
Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
>portent.
All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
>that
they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
>the
roping scenes.
>CP
>
>
Hey,
Load of
crap. Gabel died within a week after
the movie wrapped in 1961. Monroe
died in
August, 1962, more than a year later, a suicide. Eli Wallach is still
alive. Thelma Ritter lived on until the late
sixties. John Huston, the
director,
died in
the late 80s. Arthur Miller, the
screenwriter, still lives. Sure we've
had an
overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked. Oh,
yes,
Monty Clift died of a heart attack in 1965.
The film was released in 1961.
Huston
supposedly pushed Gable hard on the Mustang capture scenes, physically,
I mean,
but that's all I remember from this film. Thelma Ritter was in The
Incident
in 1967.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:00:00 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a
message dated 97-07-17 11:45:14 EDT, you write:
<<
. at least none of my fucking business. >>
Tempting.
But I can't quite gosssip in cyberspace. No inuendos. And gossip
sometimes
is sometimes physical contact in drag.
C
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:02:02 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: rwallner@CapAccess.org
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At 06:06
PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>
>>
Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
>>
and had been lovers, at least at times.
isn't it possible
>>
homosexuality played a role in their rift?
>>
>>
Mike Rice
>>
mrice@centuryinter.net
>
>Cassady
and *Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to
>Cassady
(hell he wrote two books about him!)
But he was hetero in the
>extreme
from what I've read.
>
>
In his
book Palimpsest, Vidal claims to have screwed Kerouac himself, in
the
late 40s, after a night at the San Remo Gay Bar in NYC.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:05:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cuputs
In a
message dated 97-07-17 12:49:54 EDT, you write:
<< but when you are re-typing the new work, can
you insert
words and refine phrases, or must you simply
transcribe what you see on the
paper? (I do know that what you see will be
different every time, just like
tape transcriptions, but maybe this is
another story.)
>>
The
generic term used to be "Experimental Prose." What if it works?
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:14:06 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a
message dated 97-07-17 14:39:46 EDT, you write:
<< Some in this group from
Lowell got really upset because Jack's been
recast as this all-american
hometown hero and they dont want to think of
Jack as a drug abuser. >>
Do they
read the Newmoralityspeak York Times up
there too?
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:15:13 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Mime-Version:
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At
06:31 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>It
is also worth pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately
>interefered
with Jack's relationships with his beat friends. She
>routinely
opened and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and
>apparently
took to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she
>thought
was trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal
>for
similar reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from
>reading
the letters)
>
>It
is sad but Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less
>completely
and filter much of what he knew of his old friends. She
>probably
would have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to
>not
communicate with them.
>
>RJW
>
>
When
Kerouac died in Florida, he was living with a woman, who, in effect
was his
surrogate mother, as his mother had died in Lowell some years
earlier. An early 70s Esquire article on the last
days of Jack makes it
clear
Jack was very attached to his Mom.
These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
and
Ginsburg, were all gay. The reason it
is so difficult for a lot of
people
to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
Read it
again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
relationship
between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack).
Read it again, its
a love
story about these two. Noone knew that
except the insiders in
1957
when OTR was published.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:32:38 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: Tread37@aol.com
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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As I
have written earlier, Vidal claims to have had Kerouac
after a
night at the San Remo, a 40s NYC gay bar.
But I should
mention
something I noticed about Vidal's autobio.
Every strong
story
and assertion about aberrant or non mainstream
sexual
behavior,
was invariably about someone who was already dead. In
other
words, the biographee could not complain from the grave.
For
instance, Gore has Jacqui Bouvier getting her first piece in
Paris
from a friend of Gore's. Gore was not
happy about his half-
sister's
shunning of him after 1962. Could he be
telling rancid
tails
about her to get even? Sure he could
have.
Still,
what Gore said about all these people, even if they are dead,
could
be interpreted as just Vidal holding his water until the
biographees
were decently dead, before letting fly with what he knew.
Can you
imagine what a job is going to be done on him once he is
dead?
Mike
Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
At
01:13 AM 7/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>******************************************************************************
>********************
>could
some one please help me out here? i am
very curious to figure out the
>whole
sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...
>
>it
is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
>relationship.
>
> but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have
homosexual
>relations
with jack?
> if not, how much did jack
know about neal and allen?
>anyone
who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
>
>satisfy
my curiousity, darlin's,
>
>jenn
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:49:30 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Post Office
In-Reply-To:
<199701180520.AAA12035@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Mime-Version:
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At
10:18 PM -0700 7/17/97, Bill Philibin wrote:
>
> Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post
Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z
>
red
>
> itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
>
> _The Western Lands_ is neckst.
>
> Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz
lisserfer xists.
>
>
>
> James M.
>
> Meye noz runz. Eye doent. ""
>
> Is this supposed to be funny or cool?
>
> It's a disgrace to post this to a
literary based list.
I
suggest that it is not poetry either. nope. it's duende. beyond
language. and beyond control
>
> -Bill
((got a
wild hare up my ass tonight, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:45:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
In a
message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:
<<
Where the voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the
lives of these folks i will remain prudishly
Midwestern. >>
Don't
they have no necromancers out there?
C
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:52:41 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.16.19970718005617.1b17deca@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
10:57 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mike Rice wrote:
>
Sure we've
>
had an overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked.
I'd
like to see you prove it __wasn't__ aliens that killed em all. and
them
alive. well, they be aliens too.
prove
it. rip it.
>
Mike Rice
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:06:02 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
In-Reply-To:
<970718024542_-1426464465@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
11:45 PM -0700 7/17/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Where the voyeurism overshadows the inter[net] in the other aspects of
the
> lives of these folks i will remain prudishly
Midwestern. >>
>
>
Don't they have no necromancers out there?
Neuromancers,
Charles. Neuromancers.
((see R. Gibson
> C
Plymell
Douglas
[[this
joke is getting old fas t
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:45:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: horseshit
I insist it was horeshit.
C.P.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:48:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
In a
message dated 97-07-18 02:00:19 EDT, you write:
<<
Load of crap. >>
Let's
be accurate. I insist it was horseshit!
C.
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:55:12 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: tired dog tired haiku
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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O
only
4
years
span
!
---
yrs
Rinaldo
* a beet needs water *
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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>
...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
>
and Ginsburg, were all gay. The reason
it is so difficult for a lot of
>
people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
>
Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
>
relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack). Read it again, its
> a
love story about these two. Noone knew
that except the insiders in
>
1957 when OTR was published.
>
>
Mike Rice
not to
step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has
lately
with Jack Kerouac's sexuality? reading
AG's biography now Dharma
Lion,
so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK
and NC
were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very
close
friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in
AG's
case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two
brothers
would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!
at least in the case of AG & Cassady,
Neal gave himself to Allen out of a
sense
of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested
in
men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very
experimental...but
that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge
Kerouac
and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...
ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:22:06 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: Lowell on Kerouac
MIME-Version:
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>Some
in this group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been
recast
> as
this all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of
Jack as
> a
drug abuser.
Who?
When? Jack has not been been recast as an all-american hometown
hero.
If anything, his substance abuse is still an active memory among
people
in Lowell and a major obstacle to achieving the hometown
acceptance
and recognition that a writer of his stature deserves. We
don't
deny his substance abuse problems- we can't- but they are
certainly
not something we care to celebrate or emphasize, and they
are not
what he should be remembered for. Our objective is to
celebrate
the art of Jack Kerouac and to promote the study and
enjoyment
of his writing and his joyous approach to life. Come to
Lowell
in October for the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! and
see for
yourself how we want to think about Jack Kerouac.
Mark
Hemenway
President,
Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:01:08 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Cody as America
Yes,
Sheri, your comments right on target I think.
Cody is symbolic of
a
failed American Dream crushed by materialism and what Allen Ginsberg
often
referred to as "hard heartedness."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:38:01 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: horseshit
In-Reply-To:
<970718044557_444685482@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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<<running
late for work>>
At 1:45
AM -0700 7/18/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> I insist it was horeshit.
Well,
if you insist, then ok.
Norman
Mailer in his early years picasso book, tells the story of how P got
in
trouble with his family. too many
homosexual affairs, bad clothes and
attitude,
not enough money brought in, etc. etc.
I've probably got the
reasons
all wrong, now that I think about it.
Anyhow,
to make amends with his family, Picasso goes to the local
whorehouse
and sleeps with women that his father "knew". It was a "family"
house. And he probably made this visit over and
over again until his
family
was completely satisfied that Picasso had run all his wild hares out
of
town. Something like that.
The
morale of the story involves returning to paris, smoking lots of hash,
and
locking the girlfriend in the house (daily).
Ah, artists.
So
ok. It's horeshit. but what are you gonna do with it now? These
scatalogical
poems/connotations always make me quesy.
>
C.P.
Douglas
PS: I might have been unsubscribed yesterday
again at my work address.
More
than likely the pipe was just clogged.
Eitherway, email me at
dkpenn@oees.com
if you want to reach me during work hours M-F.
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand
up, and let the man come thru
let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:26:17 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Phor BillaFillabin
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z
>red
>>
itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
>> _The Western Lands_ is neckst.
>> Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer
xists.
>>
>>
James M.
>>
Meye noz runz. Eye doent. ""
>
> Is this supposed to be funny or cool?
>
> It's a disgrace to post this to a
literary based list.
>
> -Bill
Phunny?
Kool? Kneether. Hear, hav sum either. Eim jest hookd onn
fonicks
mie phrend.
Dizgraze?
Ure thjudg. Itz ure verdicked
buht mie zentence.
Uor kritizm ov uh righting ztyl, anne
xperement, iz duelly notid buht
duzITT ad
enythin two "a literary based list"?
Evr red "Old Angel Midnight" blak
Bilely? Reely enjoied wut uad too zae
abowt
_Post Office_.
Hears sum add vice ure onher, iff yaint
diginitt, ch ch chainge thachannell.
"I
wasn't born with enough middle fingers."-M.M.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:16:42 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7BIT
>
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32
-0500
>
Reply-to: "Ryan L.
Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
>
From: "Ryan L.
Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> ...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
>
> and Ginsburg, were all gay. The
reason it is so difficult for a lot of
>
> people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
>
> Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
>
> relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack). Read it again, its
>
> a love story about these two.
Noone knew that except the insiders in
> >
1957 when OTR was published.
>
>
>
> Mike Rice
>
>
not to step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has
>
lately with Jack Kerouac's sexuality?
reading AG's biography now Dharma
>
Lion, so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK
>
and NC were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very
>
close friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in
>
AG's case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two
>
brothers would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!
> at least in the case of AG & Cassady,
Neal gave himself to Allen out of a
>
sense of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested
> in
men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very
>
experimental...but that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge
>
Kerouac and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...
>
>
ryan
>
>
ryan-
right on!
and
mike- try not to look through a telescopebecause eventually your
just
going to run into the Truth again
cya~randy
"the
simplest answer is the correct one"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:20:05 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Style
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Beatniks,
You may have noticed my recent run in
with a fellow by the name of Bill
Philbin
(I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill
has two
l's right?). Anyway, he backchanneled
me to say that he planned to
set his
e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he
received
my reply. Although this interpersonal
situation doesn't bother me
that
much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I
am bothered
by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a
passing
fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this
person
again. This person may be someone who
has nothing to offer me or I
to
him. But he was left with the impression
that I was trying to corrupt
the
grammar of any youngsters on this list.
I really don't know what to
make of
the whole scenario. One side of me
says, "Uh, write the way you
wanna
write." Another side of me says,
"Even I'm getting a little tired of
this
phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions or
comments
would be appreciated.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:47:49 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Style
Comments:
To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>
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james/jimmy/jim/jimbo
dont
worry about all of that - "you can offend some of the people some of
the
time, but you cant offend everyone all
of the time"
(or
something like that). - lincoln said that
"ill
let you be in my dream if i can be in yrs" - bob dylan said that.
yr style
is yr style. personally verbal gymnastics pique my interest, just
depends
on where you take it i suppose.
yrs
derek
On Fri,
18 Jul 1997, James William Marshall wrote:
>
>
Beatniks,
> You may have noticed my recent run in
with a fellow by the name of Bill
>
Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill
>
has two l's right?). Anyway, he
backchanneled me to say that he planned to
>
set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he
> received
my reply. Although this interpersonal
situation doesn't bother me
>
that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I
> am
bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a
>
passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this
>
person again. This person may be
someone who has nothing to offer me or I
> to
him. But he was left with the
impression that I was trying to corrupt
>
the grammar of any youngsters on this list.
I really don't know what to
>
make of the whole scenario. One side of
me says, "Uh, write the way you
>
wanna write." Another side of me
says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of
>
this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions or
>
comments would be appreciated.
>
>
James M.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:08:54 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Mike:
In your
post from 97-07-18 05:47:14 EDT, you write:
"....(Kerouac's)
mother had died in Lowell some years earlier."
JK's
mother, Gabrielle ("Memere"), was alive and living with JK and his
wife,
Stella
when he died in Florida in 1969. She
was ill and a semi-invalid by
then,
but she outlived JK and died in 1972. I
certainly agree that Stella
was a
"surrogate mother" to JK, trying to prevent him from drinking himself
to
death, unsuccessfully, keeping fans from bothering him, etc. They had
known
each other since his childhood in Lowell, and when he was near the end
of the
line he married her to take care of him and his mother, more a nurse
than a
wife. This I think was the only
circumstance under which JK would
ever
marry, he had a lifelong M.O. of getting out of or avoiding marriages,
and
denied that he was his daughter Jan's father.
He was very conflicted and
tormented
in this regard, yearning for security and looking up to those he
saw as
being or trying to be settled (including Neal Cassady as he struggled
to be a
family man with Carolyn and his children), but unable to ever happily
settle
down himself. I don't agree that JK, NC
and AG "were all gay", only
AG
among them was completely gay, although even he experimented with
heterosexuality
during his pre-HOWL youth. JK and NC
both had occasional gay
sex,
though not with each other that can be verified, but were straight most
of the
time as far as their outward behavior.
The famously intense
friendship
between JK and NC, I think, went beyond the bounds of what can be
categorized
as gay/straight into the realm of mytholigization, an emotional
and
mutually empathetic bond that went beyond sexuality, although that may
have
been a partial, latent component, an underlying inspiration to be read
between
the lines. While definitely an
important factor in understanding the
lives
and work of the key Beat figures, I don't think sexuality is the only
explaination
for or significance of OTR or VOC, which immortalized the
relationship
of JK & NC, and elevated it to a level of art and myth even as
it faithfully
transcribed it down to earth.
Regards,
Arthur
S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:01:16 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: John Coltrane.
Mime-Version:
1.0
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"You
know, I want to be a force for real good. In other words, I know that
there
are bad forces, forces put here that bring suffering to others and
misery
to the world, but I want to be the force which is truly good."
-- John
Coltrane (from an interview by Frank Kofsky)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:13:36 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: A Love Supreme
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"God
breathes through us so completely...
so
gently we hardly feel it...yet,
it is
our everything.
Thought
waves - heat waves -
all
vibrations - all paths lead to God.
The
universe has many wonders.
ELATION
- ELEGANCE - EXALTATION -
All
from God.
Thank
you God. Amen
-John
Coltrane
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:33 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Style
In-Reply-To:
<199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>
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At
12.20 18/07/97 -0700, James William Marshall wrote:
>Beatniks,
>comments
would be appreciated.
>
>
James M.
>
Stifling heat
the people turn the head
to the right & to the left
like walkin'pigeons
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:24:50 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher"
<r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: Re: Style
Comments:
To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
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i
personally cannot believe that someone is denying one man the right to =
experimentation
- though i guess he's not denying you that, just =
disagreeing
with it...my incredulity arises from the fact that we are on =
a BEAT
mailing list...would there have been a "beat generation" (i hate =
that
term, personally) without experimentation and leping the bounds of =
established
literature? would there have been a
"Howl" or "On the =
Road"? i think not...James, go on experimenting
man, it's just the =
kinda
breath of fresh air i like...
ryan
-----Original
Message-----
From: James William Marshall
[SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]
Sent: Friday, 18 July, 1997 2:20 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Style
Beatniks,
You may have noticed my recent run in
with a fellow by the name of =
Bill
Philbin
(I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, =
Bill
has two
l's right?). Anyway, he backchanneled
me to say that he planned =
to
set his
e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he
received
my reply. Although this interpersonal
situation doesn't bother =
me
that
much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit =
that I
am
bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a
passing
fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this
person
again. This person may be someone who
has nothing to offer me or =
I
to
him. But he was left with the
impression that I was trying to =
corrupt
the
grammar of any youngsters on this list.
I really don't know what to
make of
the whole scenario. One side of me
says, "Uh, write the way you
wanna
write." Another side of me says,
"Even I'm getting a little tired =
of
this
phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions =
or
comments
would be appreciated.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:49:32 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Thanks and Questions
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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First, I'd like to thank those who supported
my experimentation.
Second, I'd like to acknowledge the one
comment made by Bill Gargan, that
this
list is about Burroughs, Kerouac and Ginsberg.
I'm not going to deny
that
these guys were "beats" but who decided that the "beat
movement" ended?
When
did it end, why did it end, and what do we call WSB? A postmodernist?
I don't
believe that current "real literature" (whatever the hell that is
anyway)
is all postmodern. If there's a tension
that's omnipresent on this
list
it's the one I feel, and suspect that others feel, when somebody brings
up an
author or artist or musician that the person believes is at least
"related"
to the beat tradition. Remember
Lusha? Anyway, my final question
stemming
from Mr. Gargan's polite and righteous comment (seriously, no
sarcasm)
is: Aren't examples of techniques used
by the beats relevant to
this
list. I know that reading other
people's writing on this list is one
of the
things that I like most about it. There
are no groups of writers,
influenced
by the beats, who are willing to share their souls like I've
found
on this list anywhere else. I hope that
no one feels afraid to offer
a
glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in awhile.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:03:00 +0900
Reply-To: rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rastous The Reviewer
<rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Seeking an independent review of
"Kicks joy darkness"
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Morning,
all.
I'm
trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music
sites/record
companies... can anyone help?
Cheers,
Rastous
Terry
Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review
&
5UV
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm
For
further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:59 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Style
In-Reply-To:
<199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
12:20 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:
>
Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of
>
this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions or
>
comments would be appreciated.
>
yep, I
see you've met God too. Well, don't let
it ruin yer day. That's my
advice. Have you been motivated to produce any other
types of experiments
(as a
result)?? Especially,
<<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,
Kerouac,
or Ginsberg?
>
James M.
dimple
pox
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:01:20 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
MIME-Version:
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Mike,
I have
to throw my own vote with the others who find this amazingly
oversimple. Jack and Neal certainly were not exclusively
heterosexual,
but
they were clearly principally straight men who had a great
friendship. That does happen. Not all American buddy stories have to
be seen
as repressed faggotry. And Vidal, as
you note, is a terrible
witness
anyway. I am suprised he hasn't claimed
to have slept with any
now
dead popes. It would suit his style.
I
disagree with my friend David that this shouldn't be of interest to
us,
mostly because the principals made a point of being public with
their
behavior.
Mike
Rice wrote:
These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
>
and Ginsburg, were all gay. The reason
it is so difficult for a lot of
>
people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
>
Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
>
relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack). Read it again, its
> a
love story about these two. Noone knew
that except the insiders in
>
1957 when OTR was published.
>
>
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:24:23 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: New Styles
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>yep,
I see you've met God too. Well, don't
let it ruin yer day. That's my
>advice. Have you been motivated to produce any other
types of experiments
>(as
a result)?? Especially,
<<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,
>Kerouac,
or Ginsberg?
>
>dimple
pox
Mr.
Pox,
I'm always experimenting but nothing new has
arisen from this incident
(it's
only served to reinforce my notion of how narrow-minded so many
"gods"
are).
I'm currently editing / rewriting a novel
that's probably the most
conventional
(anti-postmodern) piece that I've written.
It has some beat
related
themes and elements: a lot of
Burroughs-like, organic metaphors, a
Kerouac-Cassady
type relationship, a frantic, permadrunk race for peace,
etc... I think this will be the manuscript that
I'll start sending out once
I've
made a bit more progress. The few
professors that I've shown it to
have
encouraged me to. I, of course, have my
reservations; I just wish I
knew
when the plane leaves.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:38:27 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Jack's Sexuality
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1.0
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Hello
List!
Recently
there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality. The
bulk of
it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's
irrelevant
(what his sexuality was). I am glad
that a discussion on his
sexuality
has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing aspect
of Jack
Kerouac to me. I think that if you look
at Jack from the
'beloved
Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he was
gay or
not, he was a great writer." But I
REALLY think there's more to
it. You just can't say that. In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the very
catalist
for everything. No book makes it as
clear as DESOLATION ANGELS
(which
I have to say is my favorite JK novel).
Read sections about when
Allen
and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San Fran
and how
paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual. The
sexuality
and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack
apart. It was almost like he could never be true to
himself. His strong
catholic
upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith. In his
heart,
I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to his
family
he had to remain catholic. Jack as a
beat didn't care if he was
gay or
straight or whatever because it didn't matter.
Love and Kicks
mattered
but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he
couldn't
let himself go. Just from reading
Kerouac, it always seemed
like he
was trying to live a lie. That's a
pretty strong statement, I
know. He's one of my heros but it's true. He could never have both
worlds
and the anxiety it caused killed him.
Someone said something
about
Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at
the
same time and I couldn't have said it better myself. Jack tried to
run
from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going for
him. If he didn't have that conflict, he was nothing. I believe he knew
that. Just like with Neal. Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it
seems
the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving
giving,
but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.
ON THE
ROAD is a romance! It's a story of
unrequited love. Neal may
have
been Jack's hero, but he was a dick.
Plain and simple. My best
friend
is the same way. I love him, but he is
a dick. He's a dick to me
and
just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'. Jack
couldn't
give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.
Thanks.
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:42:51 -0600
Reply-To: Manny <manny@HOME.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Manny <manny@HOME.NET>
Subject: Just seeing if this works right =)
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Hello
list...
So far I'm
enjoying the variety of topics discussed. =)
I'm
just now seeing if my mail is working properly. Thank you.
Amanda
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:27 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: New Styles
In-Reply-To: <199707190524.WAA17744@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
10:24 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:
> I,
of course, have my reservations; I just wish I
>
knew when the plane leaves.
found
this in the bathroom tonight <<ahem>>:
>>
Of his work he said: "I am not so
much interested in documentation,
but
would like to use the means of the steadily expanding language of my
medium
to express my impressions of the individual." (Arnold Newman)
>>
kinda
nice, huh? Fits in nice with the joyce,
girlfriend, surface, and
drug
art issues I've been dealing with. And
besides, if you miss the plane
-- take
the train. of <<ahem>> the train of thawout.
>
> James M.
= junior
mint
demi
pairs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:34:14 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seeking an independent review of
"Kicks joy darkness"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970719100300.006b3c00@light.iinet.net.au>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Sat,
19 Jul 1997, Rastous The Reviewer wrote:
>
I'm trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music
>
sites/record companies... can anyone help?
>
At the
University of Virginia, there's an online copy of the recent issue
of the
Journal of Post-Modernism or Post-Modern Studies or something like
that. I believe it was someone who's on the list
(can't remember who but
I know
this is where I heard about it) did a fairly good review of the CD.
Go to
the American Studies site. The direct
url (unless its
changed-current
issues stay up only til it gets printed) is
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:29:08 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: female (patti smith)
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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the
title of the poem is "FEMALE" and is on page 44 of SEVENTH HEAVEN. it
begins
with a quote from GENET: "To escape from horror bury yourself in it."
female.
feel male. Ever since I felt the need to
choose
I'd choose male. I felt boy rythums when I
was in
knee pants. So I stayed in pants.
I
sobbed when I had to use the public ladies
room.
My undergarments made me blush.
Every
feminine gesture I affected from my mother
humiliated
me.
I ran
around with a pack of wolves. I puked on every
pinafore.
Growing breasts was a nightmare. In agner
I cut
off my hair and knelt glassy eyed before
god. I
begged him to place me in my own barbaric race.
The
male race. The race of my choice.
In
answer he injected me with all the characteristics
of my
gender. sultry. languid. wanton. dip into
summer
skirts. go down with a narrow hipped boy
behind
a bowling alley. bleed. come. fill my womb.
the
misfit massacres the mustang pony just to feel
the
soft rise of marilyn monroe against his chest.
bloated.
pregnant. I crawl thru the sand. like a
lame
dog. like a crab. pull my fat baby belly to
the
sea. pure edge. pull my hair out by the roots.
roll
and drag and claw like a bitch. like a bitch.
like a
bitch.
67.april copyright patti smith
-=-=-=-
props
to phillip who typed all of this
cribbed
from the patti-smith list
And
yeah, who hasn't sucked some dick?
dickless
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:38:39 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <33D03C10.234F@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
21.01 18/07/97 -0700, James Stauffer writes:
[i snip
for brevity]
>
And Vidal, as you note, is a terrible
>witness
anyway. I am suprised he hasn't claimed
to have slept with any
>now
dead popes. It would suit his style.
>...
james
& amici beati,
last
night, Vidal interviewed by domestic italian TV Rai Corporation
in
Rome, about sexuality & arts & artists, asserted that's right alot
of
artists (included writers ie. Proust) are/was not eterosex,
but
this is have nothing to do with creativity, Vidal asserted
"sex
is not related with creativity but anyone has a feminine-self",
he was
moderate & amiable, (however not iconoclast),
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:04:36 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Jack's Sexuality
Comments:
To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Chris
Dumond wrote:
>
>
Hello List!
>
>
Recently there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality. The
>
bulk of it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's
>
irrelevant (what his sexuality was). I
am glad that a discussion on
>
his
>
sexuality has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing
>
aspect
> of
Jack Kerouac to me. I think that if you
look at Jack from the
>
'beloved Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he
>
was
>
gay or not, he was a great writer."
But I REALLY think there's more
> to
>
it. You just can't say that. In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the
>
very
>
catalist for everything. No book makes
it as clear as DESOLATION
>
ANGELS
>
(which I have to say is my favorite JK novel).
Read sections about
>
when
>
Allen and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San
>
Fran
>
and how paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual.
>
The
>
sexuality and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack
>
apart. It was almost like he could
never be true to himself. His
>
strong
>
catholic upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith. In
>
his
>
heart, I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to
>
his
>
family he had to remain catholic. Jack
as a beat didn't care if he
>
was
>
gay or straight or whatever because it didn't matter. Love and Kicks
>
mattered but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he
>
couldn't let himself go. Just from
reading Kerouac, it always seemed
>
like he was trying to live a lie.
That's a pretty strong statement, I
>
know. He's one of my heros but it's
true. He could never have both
>
worlds and the anxiety it caused killed him.
Someone said something
>
about Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at
>
the same time and I couldn't have said it better myself. Jack tried
> to
> run
from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going
>
for
>
him. If he didn't have that conflict,
he was nothing. I believe he
>
knew
>
that. Just like with Neal. Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it
>
seems the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving
>
giving, but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.
> ON
THE ROAD is a romance! It's a story of
unrequited love. Neal may
>
have been Jack's hero, but he was a dick.
Plain and simple. My best
>
friend is the same way. I love him, but
he is a dick. He's a dick to
> me
>
and just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'.
>
Jack
>
couldn't give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.
>
>
Thanks.
>
Chris
Chris:
This
may draw down howls upon my head, but there is something about male
nature
that leads to these relationships. The
stereotypes are:
A woman
will not maintain a relationship with a woman who "betrays" her.
A man
will have a "fight" with the asshole, they then go drink a beer,
and end
up better friends than before.
A
woman, on the other hand, will put up with tons of crap from a man,
that
she would never tolerate from another woman, because she knows she
can
change him.
A man,
will say outwardly that a woman is free to act as she cares, but
if she
treats him poorly like his male friend did, he will never forgive
her,
when he would his friend. Further, he
will become emotionally
cruel
to her.
These
are double standards that run through the sexes. I do not intend
them to
be RULES, just generalities that are the tendencies of behavior
by the
two sexes. I do not place a value on
them and say one is better
than
the other. Just that the basic approach
is different.
Last
night I arrived home from work exhausted.
My wife came to me while
I was
eating and reading the newspaper and wanted to talk. Later when I
was
rested, I sought her out to apologize and make myself available.
She
would not listen and said everything had to be on MY TERMS. I tried
to
point out to her that perhaps she could pick a better time than
interrupting
my meal and when she knew I was tired.
We did
not communicate. Funny in a way.
Peace
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:47:39 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: JK Sexuality/Sexism
Comments:
To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33D0D784.F9A8F732@scsn.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Actually,
maybe Jack was always homosexual and spent his life denying
it. This would explain his attitudes and actions
throughout his life
towards
women. Which is to say that, bluntly
speaking, Jack Kerouac was
as
sexist as they come. He had little use
for women other than sleeping
with
them.
Even
though some of his best works were about women he was in love with
(i.e.
Subterraneans, Maggie Cassidy) he basically ran from every
relationshiop
he ever had with a female other than his mother, and later
his
"surrogate mother" (last wife stella) He left one of his wives to
raise a
child, whom he knew full well was his daughter, in poverty.
Psychologically
I dont think Jack could accept either long term
relationships
with females or parenthood. If he was
really a repressed
homosexual,
this would explain some of these attitudes.
I think
Jack's sexist nature prevented him from being able to bond with
females
the way he did with males. He could
live with women and have sex
with
them, but it seems like he was incapable of having true intellectual
relationships
with women. His
"intellectual" affairs were with Allen
Ginsberg,
Neal Cassady, Lucien Carr .etc Jack
did, however, maintain a
long
correspondence relationship with Carolyn Cassady...I've read they
were in
contact long after Jack and Neal's friendship had ended.
It is
ironic actually therefore that Jack Kerouac's work, the beat ethic and
the
idea of "experiencing" life without regard to societal opinions or
barriers,
has been an inspiration to generations of female writers. In
Jack's
lifetime, he was repressed for wanting to be his own person in
much
the same way women were repressed for years from trying to have
their
own lives.
Not
only was Jack's daughter Jan a writer, but his first biographer and
cataloguer
of his works was the author Ann Charters.
There are many many
female
writers who took up pen because of Jack Kerouac. Perhaps he was a
feminist
and just never realized it?
Richard
W.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:44:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thanks and Questions
Comments:
To: dv8@mail.netshop.net
In a
message dated 97-07-19 10:59:47 EDT, you write:
<< Remember Lusha? Anyway, my final question
stemming from Mr. Gargan's polite and
righteous comment (seriously, no
sarcasm) is:
Aren't examples of techniques used by the beats relevant to
this list.
I know that reading other people's writing on this list is one
of the things that I like most about it. There are no groups of writers,
influenced by the beats, who are willing to
share their souls like I've
found on this list anywhere else. I hope that no one feels afraid to offer
a glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in
awhile.
>>
Where's
her writing?
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:43:41 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism
reply
to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use
for
women" other than sex:
i don't
believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist. i think that jack
was in
love with the human race. he loved
people, no matter what gender. i
do
think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,
but he
just found it easier to relate intellectually to men. this does not
mean he
was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides
carolyn)
or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression. for some
reason,
he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female
relationships,
but i don't think this makes him homosexual.
i think, if
anything,
he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his
love
was universal and had no gender limits.
sing
dance
be merry,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:21:00 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Seeking an independent review of
"Kicks joy darkness"
Mime-Version:
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Alex,
Thanks very much Alex for pointing
me/us to Robert Fox's review at
the
University of Virginia of "kicks joy darkness". I recommend it to
anyone
with an
interest in the Beats / music / spoken word. Anyone who can bring up
"Jazz
Canto" in passing has got my vote! Address below for those who haven't
been
there yet.
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.
An interesting cyber-journal for
several reasons. Check their index
of
other articles.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:44:20 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: I give up on VOC
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Well, I
have stuck with VOC as long as I could.
I got past the football
game
and into the meeting of the girls at the house. But, I just do not
have it
in my heart to continue. I am going to
pick up Portrait of an
Artist
as a Young Man and read Joyce for a while.
A
couple of notes. On the tapes. What would it sound like if someone
recorded
your (mine) conversations and transcribed them? I can think of
very
few that I would want to see in print.
So in reading that portion
of the
book, you have to let reality creep in and dispel your
expectations.
Second,
I picked up in my local library a book by Warren French, The San
Francisco
Poetry Renaissance 1955-1960. I have no
idea on the quality
of the
book. But in the Forward, the author
makes some comments that
harken
back to our past discussion of Eliot, Ginsberg and Whitman:
" It should be apparent that I agree with
the early (1957) judgment of
William
Hogan ... that HOWL was the "most significant long poem to be
published
in this country since World War II."
It is taking its place
beside
Walt Whitman's closely related "Song of Myself," which reached
the
public first exactly a century earlier (1855), and T.S. Eliot's The
Waste
Land, which though antipodal in many respects shares Ginsberg's
view of
the tragic consequences of a materialistic, mechanized,
depersonalized
culture and his hopes of transcending it.
" Nothing else that the beats--of any
poets since -- have written
matches
Ginsberg's inspirational breakthrough, but like Leaves of Grass
and The
Waste Land, Howl is not a monument that stands in splendid
isolation. It generated the ferment that followed--the
San Francisco
Poetry
Renaissance--and it is to tell that story, which has often been
lost or
ignored, that I have written this book."
I know
nothing of the book or the author, but it seems to sum up what I
had
read this list trying to say, and that is how Whitman, Eliot and
Ginsberg
fit together and it seems to me that a possible conclusion is
that
these three are the giants upon which true American poetry rests
for
now.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:18:55 -0700
Reply-To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Beat the NEA
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Bay
Area Beat-L folks should check today's Sunday Examiner with an
excellent
article on defunding the NEA by filmaker Bruce Conner. It
doesn't
yet appear on the Gate web page so I'll post the entire thing
tomorrow
when it appears. In essence Conner's
stance echoes C.
Plymell's.
"I
have a modes proposal. The federal
government should get out of the
arts
entirely. Go further than simply
dropping an unpopular NEA. No
more
funding for public monuments, no more presidential portraits, no
more
glamorous embellisment of the abattoirs of government . . .These
are
invigorating times now that art has again been deemed dangerous and
the
false art market boom of the 1980's, patterned after the classic
Pyramid
Scheme Fraud, has cleared out a lot of the money-changers. Art
is no
longer a protected national park where artists can make a mess and
call
the patrons dirty names while still expecting to be warmly
supported
like difficult children that need more love than anyone can
give. .
.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:46 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Bay Area Beat-L Party
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Suggestions
have been floated regarding a get together for SF Bay Area
Beat-L
folks.
I am
willing to volunteer my humble pad for such a party or listen to
suggestions
for a public venue. I know you're out
there folks, Leon,
Sherri,
Lisa, Attilla (if he's back), Jerry Cimino (if he's still
listening)
and others whose locale I don't know or who have eluded my
beclouded
Sunday morning brain.
Anyone
interested please backchannel me. Out
of the area folks who
might
be in SF in August let me know. A
public venue would work, but
someone's
place, with a plugged in computer would allow cyberjamming in
the
mode of the Plymell/Wilson reunion or the Lawrence Beat Hotel posts.
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:06:24 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Warren French's book
MIME-Version:
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Well,
while it is not well written, but then again I am not sure you can
have a
heavily edited and coherent text describing poetry in SF from
1955-60
in 112 pages, I like this book. French
did his homework and a
substantial
amount of it. He is very sympathetic to
the Beat poets, but
does
not overtly take their side.
BTW,
French retired from Indiana University in 1986. He contributed
books
on J.D. Salinger (1988) and Kerouac (1986) to the Twayne's United
States
Authors Series. When this book was
published, 1991, he was
working
on a 2 volume critical biography of John Steinbeck.
Anyway,
he brought out a point that I believe, at least partially ties
back to
the discussion on Eliot. On page 39 he
is discussing an article
JK
wrote for The Chicago Review called "The Origions of Joy in Poetry"
and
says that Jack, "saw the renaissance works as street poetry also,
but he
emphasized their being 'a kind of new-old Zen Lunacy poetry ...
diametrically
opposed to the Eliot shot.' Both these commentators
(Ferlinghetti
and Kerouac) championed populist views of poetry; but the
difference
between them [James, I feel you reading this with an
approving
eye] suggests one reason why Ferlinghetti held himself as a
poet
somewhat apart from the beats he sponsered.
His (Ferlinghetti's)
was
essentially a sociopolitical view of poetry that emphasized the
words
of the song, while Kerouac's introspective view focused on the
singer
(he admitted, for example, that 'in spite of the dry rules
[Eliot]
set down his poetry itself is sublime').
The prevalence of
Kerouac's
view among other poets and young audiences is one reason the
beats,
like the fauves, never became an organized movement seeking to
displace
an Establishment and instead remained a group of outsiders
transiently
banded together."
I feel
this paragraph highlites several points.
One, is the difference
between
Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg. He did not
write
from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.
He is
the lyrics only. They are the singer.
Second,
is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,
the
RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is
sublime. I have begun rereading The Waste Land. If I have
a comment,
it will
come later. But, don't get lost in
critizing Eliot for what he
stood
for, his poetry is sublime.
Third,
the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they
displace
the establishment. They may have
penetrated the fortress based
upon
sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel. It remains in
place
today.
A good,
but scholarly book. I will make one
more post on some comments
he had
earlier in the book. Sorry if I am
doing your homework for you.
Charles,
I hope you do not disapprove!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:18:27 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Good beginning
MIME-Version:
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The
beginning of the book on the SF Poetry Renaissance begins with some
good
analogies. The parallels are drawn to
the Fauvist painters and
uses
Kerouac and Matisse on page 4.
"... Matisse quitting the
'frustrating atmosphere' of Adolphe
Bougureau's
class... . Exactly fifty years later, Kerouac quit the
hothouse
life of coach Lou Little's Columbia University football team
when he
realized he wanted to be Beethoven instead of an athlete. In
1898,
Matisse was asked to leave Moreau's old studio ... . A
half-century
later, in 1948, Kerouac after completing a traditional
family
historical romance influenced by the work of Thomas Wolfe, took
his
first cross-country trip with Neal Cassady, which inspired him to
begin
work on an entirely new kind of spontaneous prose: the first
versions
of the novel that would subsequently be published as On The
Road
and that would take its final form in Visions of Cody."
I quote
this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here
has
tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.
It is interesting to see
it tied
historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME
book.
The
second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting. This analysis
may not
be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the
earlier
and more thorough reading I gave the book.
Here French ties the
whole
of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild
Beasts."
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:43:34 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611
<babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Good beginning
In-Reply-To: <33D2C6F3.6D78E417@scsn.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At 7:18
PM -0700 7/20/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
The second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting. This analysis
>
may not be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the
>
earlier and more thorough reading I gave the book. Here French ties the
>
whole of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild
>
Beasts."
"word
painting" interesting.
Matisse
was the old man of the fauve movement, wasn't he. Fauve, 'wild
beasts'
being the pejoritive label for a bunch of artists concerned with
outrageous
color. somewhat post-impressionism,
post-seurat, right?
Matisse
went on to develop color throughout his life.
Always apposed to
Picasso
who was associated with "form".
Matisse is well know for his
patterns
as well. A quote of his always sticks
in my craw, that he wanted
to make
art while siting in a chair, looking out a window. A somewhat
passive
happenstance, approach, I've always thought.
and
later in life, Matisse, from bed/wheelchair, made some f'in fantastic
cutout
works of art. he began with store
bought paper, then progress along
to
ordering papers of certain colors and having his assistants help him cut
out the
shapes. Icarus (1947?) is one of my
favorite paintings.
"word
painting" interesting.
>
>
Peace,
> --
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:46:19 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher
<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: I'm back ...
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Seems
pretty quiet around here ...
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
|
| |
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
|
|
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
|
|
|
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|
|
|
| "It was my dream that
screwed up" |
| -- Jack
Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:10:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: I'm back ...
Comments:
To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Levi
Asher wrote:
>
>
Seems pretty quiet around here ...
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
> |
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
>
| |
>
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
>
| (3 years old and still
running) |
>
| |
>
| "Coffeehouse: Writings
from the Web" |
>
| (a real book, like on
paper) |
>
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
>
| |
>
|
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|
>
| |
>
| "It was my dream
that screwed up" |
>
| -- Jack Kerouac |
>
------------------------------------------------------
Levi:
Glad to
see you are back. I was enjoying your
comments when you left.
It
seems to be TOO quite at the moment. I
am thinking that one of the
screwups
last week still has email jammed up out there somewhere.
And I
did get your site linked to a new page that I put up. Sometime in
the
near future, I am going to post a picture I took of Hal Norse. I
want to
clear it with Hal first.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:17 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Good beginning
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> R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I
quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here
>
has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works.
It is interesting to see
> it
tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME
>
book.
That
goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:
"But
then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for
almost
a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he
had
tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.
He'd
tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his
sentences
and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he
decided
to write another book, which has never been published [this was
in
1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with the
same
main characters in about five hundred pages.
But called Visions of
Cody,
meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence, as
a
recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments. Visionary
moments
being the structure of the novel--in other words each section or
chapter
being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter where
it fell
in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the
specific
physical description of what was happening..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:30:23 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Good beginning
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody
>
here
>
> has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works. It is interesting to
>
see
>
> it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the
>
SAME
>
> book.
>
>
That goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:
>
>
"But then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for
>
almost a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he
>
had tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.
>
He'd tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his
>
sentences and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he
>
decided to write another book, which has never been published [this
>
was
> in
1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with
>
the
>
same main characters in about five hundred pages. But called Visions
> of
>
Cody, meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence,
> as
> a
recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments. Visionary
>
moments being the structure of the novel--in other words each section
> or
>
chapter being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter
>
where
> it
fell in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the
>
specific physical description of what was happening..."
> DC
Diane:
You
BEAT me to the idea that was festering in my mind. In response to
Douglas'
post about the painting aspect, I was going to post and say
that I
believed that this is the essence of the book and what drove
Allen
to get it published. The fact that
Allen saw and knew why and
what
Jack wrote. I find that I love finding
the nuggets like Jack
talking
about memories and Proust, but on the whole, it is a hard read
when I
am doing it for an exercise.
The
fact that I broke the spine and wore out the book on its first
reading
testifies to the fashion in which I read it on first sitting.
Thanks
for this post and the point, which I believe ties back to the
Impressionistic
painting thought I have. Allen saw this
and that is why
he
called it Jack's greatest work. I find
it more like Web and the Rock
and You
Can't Go Home Again, an unfinished work.
I still feel that to
me,
Dharma Bums is the best.
BUT,
this is the most dangerous and adventuresome work.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:47:17 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Warren French's book
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> R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I
feel this paragraph highlites several points.
One, is the difference
>
between Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg. He did
>
not
>
write from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.
> He
is the lyrics only. They are the
singer.
>
>
Second, is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,
>
the RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is
>
sublime. I have begun rereading The
Waste Land. If I have a comment,
> it
will come later. But, don't get lost in
critizing Eliot for what he
>
stood for, his poetry is sublime.
I won't
try to refute the point that Eliot's poetry is sublime. Only to
point
out that his more formal, rigid, views of art and poetry are in the
traditional
sphere, and very much the kind of things beat writers
rebelled
against as establishment. Ginsberg can
even be described as
sublime
is some poems but overall it is the sublime cracked against the
hard
reality of life.
>
Third, the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they
>
displace the establishment. They may
have penetrated the fortress >
>
based
>
upon sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel. It remains in
>
place today.
>
I
disagree that the beats never became an organized movement.
Kerouac,
Ginsberg and Burroughs all formed the foundation of a new
direction
in literature. They never displaced
establishment because the
very
essence of beat writing is going beyond the fringes of what can be
called
establishment. The beats are/were
always on the outside looking
in and
convincing us that what was inside was not that true or great. I
would
also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this list
are
there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered
normal
by traditionalist views of literature and society. The beats may
not
have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be heard
to
those who are willing to listen.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:54:23 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Warren French's book
Comments:
To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
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Diane
Carter wrote:
<snip>
> I
>
would also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this
>
list
>
are there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered
>
normal by traditionalist views of literature and society. The beats
>
may
>
not have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be
>
heard
> to
those who are willing to listen.
> DC
Diane:
Sometimes
I feel that being a lawyer puts me on the fringes of the
traditional
world and on this one too. It is weird
being a lawyer and
maintaining
the point of view I do.
Last
night there was a neighborhood party here.
I found about 6 of the
100 or
so people that I could relate to. About
40 or so were "yuppies"
in all
the worst sense of the word. About 40
were of the 1950's point
of view
and the other 20 or so seemed interesting, but I could only talk
to
about 6. There was a time when I wanted
approval and would have
desired
to "fit" in, but now that I have had to "grow up" some, I
was
content
to watch and it occured to me, that I would rather be from the
50's
mind set than the Yuppies. At least the
50's type people feel
secure
in their selfs and the world, even though very reactionary. The
Yuppies
have no sense of self.
And I
feel further on the fringes than ever before in my life. But, I
wouldn't
want to be any other place!
Good
thoughts here. I think you are on the
east coast, so let's both
get
some sleep. :-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:50:54 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART
I
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7/8/97: LUTHER ALLISON / INTRODUCTION / INTERVIEW
INTRODUCTION:
For
those of you good folks that are interested in exploring the blues
without
turning in your rock collection, I am happy to say, that doing
so
would be unnecessary. Luther Allison will satisfy your "rock fix" and
at the
same time give you a heavy dose of the blues. I first met Luther
in the
early '70's, on a stretch of railroad tracks separating Lake
Monona
from the bay=97or smaller lake, in Madison, Wisconsin. A nice plac=
e
to
catch "sunnies" and have long conversations with or without the fish.
For me,
I can honestly say, that Luther Allison was a lifesaver. Here
was a
man=97with a legendary background in the blues, playing and working
steady.
I was playing Delta blues, and there wasn't much work for an
acoustic
player=97nor the blues in general. The '70's was a hard decade
for
working bluesmen and women alike. Luther was one of the few people
working
steady. What followed was an education from watching this master
on a
live set. I noticed early on that Luther could cross-over
boundaries
and rock the house, and bring you back to "Planet Earth" if
that's
what you wanted. His genius for reading an audience was=97and
is=97unsurpassed.
From Luther, I learned to hone my craft and take chance=
s
by
adding new licks. I even went as far as studying classical guitar and
jazz
methods; incorporating them into the blues. But alas, the '70's
decade
came to an end with Luther relocating to Europe, eventually
choosing
St. Cloud, France, near Paris, as home base.
His fans
worldwide
are a living testament to one of the biggest guns in the
blues:
Mr. Luther Allison. It was during a brief tour in '94, that the
rumors
of a "return" surfaced and that he was going to sign with the
prestigious
Alligator Records=97one of the best labels in the world for m=
y
money
and my personal favorite. Well, the rest is history. With the
release
of "Soul Fixin' Man" in 1994, it became apparent; the man was
back
and riding the wave. His appearance at the 1995, Chicago Blues
Festival,
was one of the most powerful moments in blues history, when he
stepped
out on the stage in front of a stagnating count of
thousands=97hundreds
of thousands of cheering fans, I looked over at my
wife
and said, quote: "It looks like Luther's boat has landed, or is it
a
ship?" We agreed on "Ocean Liner." With the release of
"Blue Streak"
that
same year he took home five W.C. Handy Awards, ten Living Blues
Awards,
and a 1995 Indie Award. And with the release of his latest from
Alligator:
"Reckless"=97a must have disc, that is beyond words; all I can
say is
this: The man is unstoppable.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:57:56 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART 2
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7/9/97: LUTHER ALLISON / OUESTIONS / INTERVIEW
QUESTIONS:
1. Well
Luther, the verdict is in=97I'm casting my ballot for "Best
Everything
In The Blues"=97 if there's such a category=97 on "Reckless."
Man,
you got to be happy with this; your latest from Alligator?=20
LUTHER: "Man, I feel great=97and it's doing
great. Everything started
with
"Soul Fixin'. I knew I had to do
something big=97you know how the
business
works, if I was going to make a Luther Allison statement, I
knew I
had to come up with something that people would take notice, too.
With
the release of "Blue Streak" I felt that my time had come.
RICHARD: I was left speechless with each new release=97and
Luther my
friend,
you have arrived=97but hell, for me you were always on top. And
with
"Reckless"=97 well, I can't see anybody coming close to topping that
one=97it's
beautiful.
=20
2. I know that you have a variety of guitars to
choose from, but I
couldn't
help but notice the "Gibson, Les Paul" on the cover of
"Reckless."
Outside the duet "Playin' A losing Game"=97which incidentally=
,
was
absolutely beautiful, did you record most of the other cuts on the
"Les
Paul?" (Man, they have that certain sound=97real nice)
LUTHER: No. I bought an original "Les
Paul" in my neighborhood back in
Paris,
from a shop=97one of many shops in the area. The guy that sold it
to me
didn't tell me it had a broken neck. So I was pretty damn steamed
and
took it back=97everybody in the neighborhood knew that it had a bad
neck. I
told him how could you do this to me? Well, he said, what can I
do to
make it up to you. And I said, you can go across the street and
buy me
that 1960 reissue "Les Paul." Two weeks later, I got the Les from
him=97now
that's a blues story!
RICHARD: And you tore-up the 1995 Chicago Blues
Fest=97with Mr. Les!=20
Man,
that's some story=97that's what the blues is about. Sometimes, I
think
it's all connected into one gigantic story=97and it's all those
real-life
moments that make the blues a happening thing.
3. Luther, in all honesty, I have never heard
you sound more soulful
and on
these cuts=97without sounding like a beer commercial=97I have too
say,
"it doesn't get much better than this=97where do you go from here/or
what's
next?
LUTHER: Keep moving forward=97workin' and playin' so
I can get some time
to hang
with you and all my fishing buddies. Do you remember when I'd
drive
to gigs with my pole, tackle, and bucket a worms; just in case I
passed
by a lake on the way to a gig?
RICHARD: Man, do I ever remember. I used to love
driving to a gig and
always
carried my fishin' stuff=97sometimes I'd forget the gig and all
hell
would break loose! I only screwed-up a couple of times because the
fish
were bitin'!
4. I would love to see a Luther Allison,
solo unplugged session
someday,
and I'm willing to bet it would be a winner. Have you ever
considered
doing a project like that? (recording)
LUTHER: Well, I've already done that. Did a CD back
in Paris called:
"Hand
Me Down My Moonshine" which has nothing to do with booze. It's
about
the man in the moon. I assembled some guys and a real cool harp
player
from the neighborhood. My son Bernard played a real bitchin'
slide=97sounded
great!
RICHARD: Man, now I got to hit Paris and find that
CD. Here's a harp
story
for you. When I was a kid living in Mpls and trying to be a real
"Bluesman,"
I'd get about fourteen dollars together and take the train
to
Chicago. Eventually, make my way down to Maxwell Street=97hoping to se=
e
my
heroes. So here comes Jr. Wells wearing a suit and real cool Fedora=97=
a
regular
Al Capone hat. Hell, man I wanted to look just like Jr. Here I
am,
about 16 yrs old=97all decked out and I jump in front of Jr., and say=
,
"Mr.
Wells, could you please show me a few licks on my harp?" He looks
at me
real funny and says, "All I can Tell you is stick the harp in your
mouth
and blow"=97and then he laughed like hell.=20
LUTHER: (laughing)
"You tell Jr. the next time you see him that he
still
owes me a lesson!"
5. I have to praise your son, Bernard, whom I'd
love to meet. To write
a song
like: "Low Down And Dirty," and to hear him play and sing with
you on:
"Playin' A Losing Game" convinced me, that here's a
bluesman=97something
you don't see in the young very often=97you got to b=
e
one
proud father?
LUTHER: Oh man! I'm definitely proud. He's got all
the stuff he needs
to make
it all happen. On the duet, I played a Martin acoustic and he
played
another hand-made acoustic that sounds real nice.
RICHARD: I'm telling you, he knows his blues and has
the necessary
soul=97man
alive! How old is he?
LUTHER: He was born in '65, and that would make him
32 yrs old.
6. Are you seeing interest in learning more about the blues these days
with
the younger kids=97especially in the black community=97(it's such a
rich
heritage)?
LUTHER: Well right now the blues is taking off and
it feels real
good=97so
the interest is there for anyone who wants to check it out.
RICHARD: When I was a kid, I got my hands on an AM
Transistor radio and
late at
night I'd tune in a station: KAAY from Little Rock, Arkansas.
They
had a late night show called (I think) Bleeker Street=97that's where
I first
heard the greats like Elmore James, Freddie King, and of course
Muddy
Waters (man, I wanted to be just like those guys). You were born
and
raised in Arkansas, like Sonny Boy Williamson=97did you ever come int=
o
contact
with some of the great bluesmen from the area?
LUTHER: Yes=97definitely. When our family moved to
Chicago, in 1951, you
couldn't
help but come into contact with bluesmen=97I went to High School
for
awhile with Muddy Waters son, and I'd hang at their house. My school
was/and
is the blues.
RICHARD: Well my friend, If I was president of some
college, I'd give
you a
"DOCTORATE OF BLUESOLOGY."=20
7. One last question: any secret fishing spots
you want to share?
(Much
laughter)
LUTHER: I think I'll pass on that one.
RICHARD: Luther, after all these years, I finally
caught up with you
and I'm
damn happy that you're back=97and I mean back in more ways than
one!
=20
END
/ INTERVIEW.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:16:31 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART 2
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Richard,
Thanks
for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.
Anyone
who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some
small
halls or before he goes back to Europe.
The CD's are great but
he's
way better live. Probably the best
guitar player I have every
heard
live. Period.
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:20:54 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART
3
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Hello
Charles, James, Bentz, & Beat-L,
The
interview with Luther Allison took place on 7/9/97. For me,
it was
a real joy when Pulse Magazine asked me to do the interview.
Luther
is an old friend and we go back about 20 or more years. On
7/11/97,
he played in Mpls about 20 minutes from my place. We hadn't
seen
each other in years, and for me, this was a very special time.
On the
following Monday, the 14th, Alligator Records called and
informed
me that Luther had canceled his world tour, and was
hospitalized
in Madison, WI with inoperable brain cancer that had
spread
from the lungs. He's hanging on and hoping for a remission
so he
can finish his tour for the fans. And that's the Luther I know
and
love--simply unstoppable.
Peace,
Richard
Houff
Pariah
Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:44:10 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "(Jerry Cimino)"
<Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm back ...
Hi
Levi, et al...
I'm
back too... been gone for a while on business and then I caught a few
posts
on a VoC thread and then server problems apparently knocked me off.
Looks like the Beat-L is roaring along,
though. Will join in again soon.
Jerry
Cimino
www.kerouac.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: What NEXT?
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Good
Morning,
It
seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly
well. My question is that as people draw to a close
with Cody, should
we jump
into another book. It seemed like a
pretty good kind of thread
to have
going.
In the
event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?
Some
had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.
Others
suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'
works
(suggestions there seem to vary as to which one). There was more
talk of
a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).
Since
I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read
something
as far away from Ulysses as possible.
BUT - I'm not certain
which
one that would be.
At any
rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread
created
might push to list towards having one thread going around a book
much of
the time. It seems that there are
plenty of books out there.
It also
seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading
doesn't
hurt a person too much.
This
morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after
much
time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person
has
referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as "suffering
from
general
paralysis of the insane." These
days we have more complicated
diagnostic
procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at
digging
into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all
about.
Stephen
would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for
certain.
Glad to
have people coming back. Glad to have people
who've stayed so
long
and people who have joined in between.
What am i rambling about
... a
word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning
before
having coffee.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:28:43 +0900
Reply-To: rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rastous The Reviewer
<rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Versace's death & Drag Queens.
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Isn't
it nice that when something nasty happens... it's a drag queen who
gets
the blame.
Well,
bugger that.
The
arsehole who whacked Versace was a complete prick - a taste for my
frocks
doesn't make him a queen... murdering prick. Queen, no.
Anyone
who knows where he is, call your local crime department officials -
look up
your local white/yellow pages for details.
I miss
my favourite designer,
Ms
Alisha
Terry
Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review
&
5UV
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm
For
further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:02:07 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART 2
Comments:
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
Richard,
>
>
Thanks for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.
>
>
Anyone who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some
>
small halls or before he goes back to Europe.
The CD's are great but
>
he's way better live. Probably the best
guitar player I have every
>
heard live. Period.
>
>
James Stauffer
James:
On the
Jimi Hendrix list someone has posted information indicating that
Luther
Allison has been diagnosed with a life threatening disease.
They
have posted an address for money to be sent to help Luther as his
insurance
will not cover the treatment. (I say he
should send the bill
to the
members of congress, the insurance industry and the AMA who claim
we
don't need any form of National Health Care).
I will try to dig up
that
information and post it if I can find it.
Take
care,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:07:42 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism
i
couldn't agree with Jenn's last line more.
i
originally had mixed feelings regarding how JK looked at and felt about
women. oddly, though, i've never been able to
convince myself he was sexist.
rather,
i think the totally mixed up relationship with his mother and his
Catholic
upbringing brought him to a place where his expectations of women
were
unrealistic and that there was a bit of the Madonna atmosphere about
women
for him.
On the
"kicks joy darkness" cd an unpublished piece, sort of a short essay,
called
"America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley" gives us a
clue
that he
had at least given thought to women's
social plight at the time
(1957). He talks about how these three men represent
a new kind of man whose
love is
compassionate:
"Up
to now the American Hero has always been on the defensive: he killed
Indians
and villains and beat up his rivals and surled. He has been
good-looking
but never compassionate except at odd moments and only in stock
situations. Now the new American hero, as represented by
the trinity of James
Dean,
Marlon Brando and Elvis Presley, is the image of compassion in itself.
And
this makes him more beautiful than ever.
It is as though Christ and
Buddha
were about to come again with masuline love for the woman at last. All
gone
are the barriers of asceticism and the barriers of ancient anti-womanism
that go
deep into primitive religion...
...
There is the need all around to be recognized and adored by some other
human
being, the need all around for kindness, for the ideal of love which
does
not exclude cruelty but is all-embracing, non-assertive, simply lovely.
Not
necessarily the Dionysian orgy but the tender communion."
while i
wouldn't call him a feminist, i think he was aware of the difficuties
for
women at the time and that certain social mores and stigmas were unfair.
there
is too much real feeling in JK for me to call him a sexist. he may have
been
messed up and not good at relationships - with both genders - (and,
obviously,
behaved deplorably regarding his daughter and her mother), but i
have
always felt that this was as a result of his personal demons, rather than
his
outlook on women per se.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Jenn Fedor
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 1997 12:43 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism
reply
to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use
for
women" other than sex:
i don't
believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist. i think that jack
was in
love with the human race. he loved
people, no matter what gender. i
do
think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,
but he
just found it easier to relate intellectually to men. this does not
mean he
was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides
carolyn)
or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression. for some
reason,
he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female
relationships,
but i don't think this makes him homosexual.
i think, if
anything,
he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his
love
was universal and had no gender limits.
sing
dance
be merry,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:04:36 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: In regards
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My
friends in Beating, (sounds like a support group or something)
I'd like to take part in the next group
reading but I've got a bit of a
problem: an inability to lay hands on the books that
have been mentioned as
candidates
so far. This inability kept me from
participating in the
_Visions
of Cody_ project. I'm currently reading
WSB's _The Western Lands_
(which
a friend had to lend to me). Could we
add this one to the list of
possibilities? I wouldn't mind reading _Naked Lunch_ again
either. I think
we
could get a lot of mileage out of that one.
Or Kerouac:
_Visions of Gerard_, _The Subterraneans_, _The Dharma Bums_?
I have
a few other Kerouac works but the ones I've listed are the only ones
I
really have any interest in reading again presently.
Anyway, whatever you guys decide is cool.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:04:07 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: New thread
"Some
of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores. How about making
this
our new thread?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:07:21 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Kerouac and Women
Let's
get real here. Calling Kerouac a
feminist is like calling Barry
Goldwater
a liberal. Even given gender attitudes
of his time, Kerouac
fell
short. I've just finished reviewing
"Some of the Dharma" and there
are
some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there. He certainly
wasn't
a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was
usually
happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.
He was
a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:25:38 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: I give up on VOC
Comments:
To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33D23254.E4034CF8@scsn.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sun,
20 Jul 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> A
couple of notes. On the tapes. What would it sound like if someone
>
recorded your (mine) conversations and transcribed them? I can think of
>
very few that I would want to see in print.
I have
done this. The results interested me, but in reading them I did
realize
and understand that few (if any) others would hold the same interest
in
reading them as a "work," ie. something that stood on its own
(whatever
_that_
means) that any "Reader" could just jump in and get literarialized.
Which
is why I'd asked that question earlier about fame & preconceived
notions
upon approaching VOC.
I've
seen a similar technique done quite well (though not nearly as lengthly
as
Jack's, nor at all as personal) -- and that is in Bret Easton Ellis' _The
Rules
of Attraction_. One of his less-known books, I think it's his best as
far as
"literary" value. (It certainly was the one that affected _me_ the
most.)
And I remember thinking, first time I read it _after_ having read
VOC, that
Ellis no doubt was familiar with Kerouac and his techniques. I
think
he consciously used Kerouac techniques or knowledge from observing
such in
_...Attraction_, and probably did so at a lesser level in his other
works.
Unlike, say, Ginsberg, Bret Easton Ellis is not exactly an accessible
figure,
so it would be quite difficult to ask him.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:27:04 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
please
re-read - i said i wouldn't call Kerouac a feminist. unless, i typoed
- in
which case let me re-state. i wouldn't
call him a feminist.
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Bill Gargan
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Kerouac and Women
Let's
get real here. Calling Kerouac a
feminist is like calling Barry
Goldwater
a liberal. Even given gender attitudes
of his time, Kerouac
fell
short. I've just finished reviewing
"Some of the Dharma" and there
are
some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there. He certainly
wasn't
a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was
usually
happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.
He was
a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:43:36 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: New thread
Comments:
To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997072111045396@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
bill
when
does "some of the dharma" hit the streets? i am VERY excited by this
new
release (isnt there another scheduled for release as well? "wake up"?
"what
buddha teaches us"?) what have you thought of "some of the
dharma"
so far?
yrs
derek
On Mon,
21 Jul 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
"Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores. How about making
>
this our new thread?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:04:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
i think
i must not have gotten my point across.
i
really don't think JK was sexist.
i do
believe that he had personal problems with women, and relationships in
general,
but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen and
not
heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc., which were the
prevailing
opinions i grew up with.
my
point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some
consideration
to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's. and that he
realized
that there was some unfairness for women.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Bill Gargan
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Kerouac and Women
Let's
get real here. Calling Kerouac a
feminist is like calling Barry
Goldwater
a liberal. Even given gender attitudes
of his time, Kerouac
fell
short. I've just finished reviewing
"Some of the Dharma" and there
are
some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there. He certainly
wasn't
a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was
usually
happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.
He was
a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:13:01 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sherri,
I'm
inclined toward Bill's view here. The
"seen not heard" stance while
certainly
one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant
voice. Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or
even Ginsberg.
Jack
had a very hard time seeing real women.
They tend to appear as
unrealistic
Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts.
There is a
tendency
toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal
with
sometimes.
James
Stauffer
Sherri
wrote:
. . but i don't believe he held the notion
that women should be seen
and
>
not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc., which were the
> prevailing
opinions i grew up with.
>
> my
point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some
>
consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's. and that he
>
realized that there was some unfairness for women.
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:21:14 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments:
Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: What NEXT?
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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7BIT
>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24
-0500
>
Reply-to: RACE ---
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
>
From: RACE ---
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
>
Subject: What NEXT?
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Good Morning,
>
> It
seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly
>
well. My question is that as people
draw to a close with Cody, should
> we
jump into another book. It seemed like
a pretty good kind of thread
> to
have going.
>
> In
the event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?
>
Some had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.
>
Others suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'
>
works (suggestions there seem to vary as to which one). There was more
>
talk of a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).
>
>
Since I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read
>
something as far away from Ulysses as possible. BUT - I'm not certain
>
which one that would be.
>
> At
any rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread
>
created might push to list towards having one thread going around a book
>
much of the time. It seems that there
are plenty of books out there.
> It
also seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading
>
doesn't hurt a person too much.
>
>
This morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after
>
much time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person
>
has referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as
"suffering from
>
general paralysis of the insane."
These days we have more complicated
>
diagnostic procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at
>
digging into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all
>
about.
>
> Stephen
would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for
>
certain.
>
>
Glad to have people coming back. Glad
to have people who've stayed so
>
long and people who have joined in between.
What am i rambling about
>
... a word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning
>
before having coffee.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
>
i would
suggest One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest because it is a short
easy
read and is just a great book. i geuss Ken KEsey would be a beat
but i
always thought he was right between the line of being a beatnik
and a
hippie. he still did write good. also, the main character in
OFOTCN
always did remind me somewhat of Neal cassady. questions,
comments?
Cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:38:27 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Eastward Journey, the end
Well I
made it to the East Coast. I started from Eureka, California on June
21 with
my ballet teacher and Mr. Hat. Also a yellow duck, a toy Hercules
that I
found at Hoover Dam, and a copy of On The Road that my friend was
suppose
to read but never did.
Last
transmission was from Amarillo, Texas.
Corrected
and updated information on Caddillac Ranch. It is at mile marker 64
on
Route 40 (old route 66), get off at Hope Road. 203 steps from the road.
When I
was there at 8 in the morning, there were 3 other cars there to see
Caddillac
Ranch including a family from Germany. They were also driving cross
country
(a couple with 2 kids).
>From
there continued east stopping in Tyler, Texas. Looked for a used
bookstore
but never found it.
Next
stop was Narlens. Driving down Louisiana to catch Route 10, passed by an
sign
for Tiger Gas that said they had tigers. So had to stop, and not only
did
they have tigers (what the hell are tigers doing in Louisiana) but they
had two
baby tigers as well. The baby cubs were 15 weeks old and chewing up a
plastic
pool that they were suppose to be cooling off in.
Of
course saw a bunch of dead armidillos.
Get to
Narlens (ok, I'm so cool I say Narlens instead of New Orleans. So
what?)
Narlens is one of my favorite cities. Got a Hotel room on Royal
Street,
on block off Bourbon Street, and it was only $45 a night (with AAA
discount).
Stayed there two nights. Bourbon street is three things, no four
things.
Music, T shirts shops, sex shops, and Hurricanes.
Music
was ok. Last year when I went I heard Brick House by the Commodores (I
actually
like that song) so it was great. Lots of blues, R&B, some jazz, some
rock,
and Karaoke (which I hate, but I don't know why because it sounds like
it
should be fun). This year add DISCO. YES. DISCO. Quite a number of bars
were
playing Disco. That's up with that?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:39:19 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "to have seen a specter isn't
everything..."
In a
message dated 97-07-14 12:45:57 EDT, dkpenn@OEES.COM (Penn, Douglas, K)
writes:
<< good neighborhood for sex clubs, used
book, record & clothing stores. and automotive supply stores.
>>
That is
exactly the kind of place I'm looking for. Good automotive supply
stores.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:30:38 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Some of the Dharma
I think
it's schedule for a September release date to be followed by the
"Selected
Letters v.2", although this pub date may have been pushed up.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:45:10 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: FW: Jack and Neal
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----------
From: Hemenway . Mark
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:37 AM
To: 'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'
Subject: RE: Jack and Neal
Importance: High
You
might read <<Visions of Cody>> for Jack's book length views on his
relationship
with Neal. I just read it again, not too long ago, and
don't
remember any explicit references to a gay relationship. He
apparently
saw him as a brother, a replacement for Gerard. The whole
brother
thing... Gerard... etc is a gold mine for anyone interested in
psycho-biography.
RE: Jack's sexual life, I recommend <<Memory Babe>>
by
Gerry Nicosia as a source.
Mark
Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:44:46 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: FW: Reading VOC
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----------
From: Hemenway . Mark
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 AM
To: 'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'
Subject: RE: Reading VOC
Importance: High
I could
never make any progress with Naked Lunch until I read an essay
that
pointed out it was never meant to be read in a linear way- start
to
finish- but was written as unrelated scenes. For those
obsessive-compulsive
people like me having trouble making it through
VOC,
you might try the same approach. It is a difficult book. Just dip
in and
read a bit. No disrespect intended, but I found it to be great
bathroom
reading. Bedtime reading might also work. I also ended
reading
it backwards and enjoyed the hell out of it.
Mark
Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:06:11 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
i would
agree that AG & WSB did exhibit some mysoginistic feelings (although
my
reading of both of them has a long way to go before i can be any real
judge).
i will
reiterate that JK displayed unrealistic expectations of and ideals
about
women. however, i do not think they were out of an idea that women were
second
class citizens. i think they were based on his personal experiences.
as far
as the predominant view of "women's place" in the 50's, i don't see
how
anyone
can say that it wasn't that women "should be seen and not heard",
etc.
- that
problem still exists, probably much more than one would think. i was
born in
'57 and spent all of my childhood and most of my teenage years
hearing,
almost exclusively, that crock o' shit from most of the males i knew
- and
fighting it mightily. i ran into it in
the work world and in college in
the
70's and early 80's. and even in liberal old Calif., it's still not
terribly
unusual to run into it in a rather veiled way (and occasionally a
totally
glaring way). it may not have been the
predominant opinion among
Beats,
i have yet to form a solid opinion on that, but it does appear to be at
odds
with the general sense of what Beat seems to mean...
i also
think it is important to form an opinion regarding an author's social
outlook
by placing what s/he has to say within the social context of the time.
i know, with regard to myself, how my views
have changed during my lifetime
due to
exposure to various ideas and cultures and although my natural outlook
has
always been that of a feminist, my opinions have been molded and re-shaped
by
experience and learning. i, therefore,
would hate to have my attitudes be
judged
at any one point in time without the social climate of the time as a
backdrop.
all
that being said, Bill & James, i would like to thank you both for what i
infer
to be an enlightened, progressive and caring attitude toward women.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
James Stauffer
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 11:13 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
Sherri,
I'm
inclined toward Bill's view here. The
"seen not heard" stance while
certainly
one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant
voice. Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or
even Ginsberg.
Jack
had a very hard time seeing real women.
They tend to appear as
unrealistic
Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts.
There is a
tendency
toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal
with
sometimes.
James
Stauffer
Sherri
wrote:
. . but i don't believe he held the notion
that women should be seen
and
>
not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc., which were the
>
prevailing opinions i grew up with.
>
> my
point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some
>
consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's. and that he
>
realized that there was some unfairness for women.
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
>