=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:31:11 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Please Mr. Johnson, Hand Me a Winner
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Bentz,
I was
reading too fast the first time this came through.
Was going
through things to forward to a friend and reread it.
Flattered
at being mentioned in such exalted company.
Nice
work.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:15:03 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
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Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: unfair aurguments with existence
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hello
all. just returned from a trip to new orkeans, and been
listening
in some to know what's happening. picked up a cool little
ferlinghetti
book, unfair aurguments with existence, it's some of his
drama.
anyone know anything about it? i guess i will buy a copy of
naked
lunch too, as that seems to be the current topic. anyone ever
listen
to the movie's soundtrack? that is just phenomenal! one of my
favorite
cds. is gregory corso still living in italy? i heard he
moved
there for heroin cy~a randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:19:51 -0700
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Road: drunkenness
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Just
tentative impressions, not hard conclusions, but you asked for =
ideas.
=20
Whiskey
alcoholics generally more alive, tend
to act on their stirring =
impulses,
to splash about vigorously except when approaching total =
collapse, the periods of recuperation when they are
totally passed out. =
Winos
tend to be more slurred, defeated, drowning, vegetating, more =
inocuous,
less combative, less aggressive acting outless destructive =
actions
or poor judgement exercised, more chronically douzed, less =
alive,
less effectively dangerous also.=20
----------
From: Diane Carter[SMTP:dcarter@TOGETHER.NET]
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 1997 5:38 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: On the Road: drunkenness
. Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a
whiskey
alcoholic? Any ideas?
DC
.-
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:40:09 -0400
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From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On death and dying........
In a
message dated 97-08-15 14:39:05 EDT, you write:
<< In retrospect, I do think it odd
that I chose a sample of his ("When
death becomes you...") as part of my
contribution to a net-based tape loop project
going on in the weeks just
before his death. All those unsuspecting tape
recorders playing this
message, just before he died -- hmm, I wonder
if he would have gotten a kick
out of that. >>
Does
anybody else think it odd, that having lost Uncle Bill, then a few days
later
Fela Kuti, that I made a special visit to the Indian/Pakistani
neighborhood
in Chicago, to buy a hard to find
variety of couscous and a few
CDs/cassettes
by Nusfrat Fateh Ali Kahn (sp?), to
find _his_ obit in the
Sunday
paper?????????
Seems like all my heros are dropping like
the flies........
r.i.p. et.al..........
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:40:10 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: D & D
In a
message dated 97-08-15 14:39:05 EDT, you write:
<< I do think it odd >>
Can
anyone give me a clue on the Burroughs track that I know I have but
cannot
locate--on On-U records---a sample of him chanting "
pay it
all back, pay it AAAAllllll back" (inimatable style).............
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:42:59 -0400
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From: Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ferling, etc
Ferlinghetti's
newest book "A Far Rockaway of the Heart" has been out for a
few
months now from New Directions and it continues the tradition of "A Coney
Island
of the Mind". Well worth looking
into, one of his better efforts of
late.
Yours,
Bill
Morgan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:53:57 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Burroughs]
----------
From: R. Bentz Kirby[SMTP:bocelts@SCSN.NET]
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 1997 8:00 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: [Fwd: Burroughs]
Well, I
have been scanning the Dylan list for some more good Burroughs
posts. And I couldn't find anymore, so the action
must have died down.
But
since the beats play cosmic baseball on the net, and since the
action
has dwindled, I did find this fine reference to Cal Ripken and
Eddie
Murray. Seems timely since Anaheim just
cut Eddie.
I know,
or at least believe Jack was
very
much into baseball. How about Neal, or any others.
Neal
didn't talk much about baseball. He followed races with intense
enthusiasm.
Watched all the races he could on TV, kept track of outcomes,
drivers,
etc.. Tried to make it to the horse races whenever he could. When
he
worked in Los Gatos he tried to make it to all the Saturday afternoon
last
races at Belmont which were free. He also collected all the Chronicle
Green
Sheets with results from the horse races, compiling proof of his
theory
that if you had simutaneously stationed people to bet on third
choice
in all the races across the country that you would win big. Never
was
able to convince enough investors to follow through, inspite of his
closet
full Green pages that he used to try to prove his theory.
leon
begin
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end
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:30:11 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
Maybe I'm missing something but where did this idea of the Big Lie come
> from?
Douglas
was using it.
It
seems to me that Burrough's notion of the universe is equal
>
part big lie and big truth. The notion
of a creator playing with the
>
creation comes to mind. There's a
natural order of things and an
>
inversion of the natural order of things.
> DC
inversions
twisting angles all seems good. i think
big lie probably
confuses
things somewhat. also humour especially
dark-types is one way
to
invert and twist the angles of truth and justice and american way and
whatnot
to get all the shitout of the shithouse.
i believe that is
about
all i have to say until i get the book tuesday or wednesday.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:50:18 -0700
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From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: don't go to sleep mad (was: Naked Lunch)
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who
gave that advice? And what was the
second couplet line: "just go
away..."?
I
figure I oughta speak out, get what's off my chest before I went to
sleep. Have been thinking about this for a while
now. Still not sure how
to
accurately respond. You ask me not to
speak, not to post to the list.
Have
been thinking about the obsecenity trials, about WSB's reflection on
Ginsberg
and his fight against the big lies. About the youth of America.
about
my life.
Hopefully
my dreams tonight will guide me to a better answer than this
rambling
mess. Have to ask "why go
on?" Love, I guess. that helps.
But
it's
more than that, I suppose. Why creative
types do what they do.
Popularity? Control?
Fear? and back again to love, I guess, but eeew, who
wants
to say that?
It's so
simple, I guess. My two best friends
are out of town tonight. I
wish I
could call them and chit chat over all of this. get some good
advice. Started "western lands"
tonight. need to get back to Joyce and
Dali,
too.
I don't
have it in me to fight with you. Just
don't blame me for your
decisions
to unsubscribe. Don't make this into a
popularity contest. And
please,
if you're gonna criticism my posts, please have the decency to read
them
first. but I'm not even sure I want you
to do that. It's obvious
we're
not going to be much, friends. But I'll
tell you anyhow the "beat"
issues
I'm currently dealing with:
- the role of death in the
joy/darkness paradigm (DC, Kerouac
discussion)
- "Why go on?" (WSB, June 6)
- the big lie, the green tit, and hole
punching holy holy across
the sky
(WSB, May 25)
- WSB's relation to music and the arts
(as exemplified by the LACMA
show)
- the land of the dead, the western
lands, the event horizon (what
are the
links?)
- soon, WSB's relation to James
Joyce's "Bloom"
- the paranoid-critical method of
salvador dali
- the "surrealist"
landscapes of yves tanguey
- the cut-up method, appropriation,
escaping the vicious cycle
- writing a way out of death
and
then some. Check out my home page for
the visual interpretations.
Maybe
we still have something to talk about??
and I
kept thinking of what "cute" comment I'd make. the snide jab. The
best I
could come up with is from WSB's New Yorker diary entry dated May
31,
Saturday:
<<snip>> "No letters.
How good will it be to have total
conformity?
What will be left of singularity?
And personality? And you and me?"
That
and how it relates to our new techno-email age. Nobody writes letters
anymore
(snail). What will the historians of
the future do with all this
"ink"? And singularities, my god. Soon, I will have an engine capable of
dealing
with those entities.
oh, oh,
oh. Hopefully, I'll be able to fall
asleep soon.
Douglas
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
At 2:07
PM -0700 8/17/97, Diane De Rooy wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-08-17 16:58:34 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Who cares?! I don't know. Am glad that it ended when
> it did, before someone pulled out the
machete and started hacking their
> computer to death. Surprised James didn't write me personally and tell me
> to shut the fuck up. >>
>
> Is
this a disease of newsgroups? This pissy, petulant sarcasm launched
>
against even the slightest of rubs?
>
>
This is the kind of crap that has made me sign off three times so far.
>
>
Douglas, shut the fuck up, okay?
>
>
diane
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ |
0 | The map is
not the
territory
| { -
| --Korzybski
----> | /\
|
=========
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:02:40 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: Lou Reed and the Beats
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Hello everybody:
I don't
know if you would consider any
of the
following a connection, buuuuutt...
according
to the booklet that came with
the LR
box set, "Between Thought And
Expression":
In 1959, while at NYU, Reed was
an avid
contemporary jazz buff, programming a jazz radio show, and into
the
music of Monk, Coltrane and Coleman.
He was a great admirer of the
poet,
essayist and short story writer
Delmore
Shwartz (In Dreams Begin
Responsibilities,
pub.1937). Would he
be
considered a Beat or an influence on
them?
Shwartz inspired Reed to study the
works
of Joyce and Keats, and it was
during
this time that Lou wrote the Velvet
Underground
classic "Heroin".
On the back cover of Reed's
"The
Blue Mask" lp, Lou dedicated the
song
"My House" to Shwatrz. Burroughs
might
have been a big influence as well,
at
least during Reeds' VU days.
"Waiting
For The Man" ( "The man is never on time. This is no
accident."-taken
from
the intro to NL), "Sister Ray", "Venus
In
Furs", "The Black Angel's Death Song"
(his
vocal delivery here, in fact, his way
of
talk-singing in general, might be considered Beat-ish.), probably any
of
these
songs, or the VU's first three albums, would make a terrific
soundtrack
to NL.
Junky-according to the booklet that
came
with the VU box set "Peel Slowly
And
See"-thanks to WSB's confessional
style
and wit (still going by the booket,
I
haven't read Junky yet) inspired Reed
to
write Heroin.
I'll be the first to say that I'm
reaching
with all this, but any excuse to
talk
about LR/VU is a good one. I wish
everyone
on the list a wonderful week.
Chimera
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:23:04 -0400
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: On the Road: drunkenness
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No, I'm not starting my
"alcoholic" diatribe again but I thought I'd
respond to this.
In the purest sense alcoholism is
alcoholism; however, I will concede
wine and whiskey do produce different
"drunks" due to their chemical
compositions. Strangely enough whiskey and other hard liquor destroys
the mucin lining the stomach at a quicker
rate than wine. So maybe,
(or maybe not) if Jack had stuck to Tokay
we would have had him around
a little longer (probably not). It's *my opinion* that wine is more
aggravating to the system and hence
produces more vomiting which would
have lead to bleeding varicies in the
throat and a hemorrage vs.
destroying the mucin lining and dying of
a "middle-gi" hemmorage.
Jack was right, but he didn't know by how
much.
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
On the Road: drunkenness
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 8/17/97 5:38 AM
On the
Road, pg. 39, when he is describing Dean's (Neal's) father,
Kerouac
writes, "His father, once a respectable and hardworking tinsmith,
had
become a wine alcoholic, which is worse than a whiskey alcoholic..."
>From
Kerouac's descriptions in all the later books, he was himself always
drinking
wine and not whiskey. Why is a wine
alcoholic worse than a
whiskey
alcoholic? Any ideas?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:25:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Lou Reed and the Beats
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Correct me if I'm wrong, oh those more
knowledgeable than me" but
didn't WSB hang out with Andy
Warhol? If so there's a connection, if
not an influence.
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
Lou Reed and the Beats
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 8/17/97 7:28 PM
What
was the extent of the relationship with, or the influence of, the
beats
and Lou Reed?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:56:35 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Road: drunkenness
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Whiskey
is expensive. Whiskey alcoholics have more money. By the time the
alcoholic
gets to wine he/she is usually close to the bottom of the
economic
ladder.
j grant
>Just
tentative impressions, not hard conclusions, but you asked for ideas.
>
>Whiskey
alcoholics generally more alive, tend
to act on their stirring
>impulses,
to splash about vigorously except when approaching total
>collapse, the periods of recuperation when they are
totally passed out.
>Winos
tend to be more slurred, defeated, drowning, vegetating, more
>inocuous,
less combative, less aggressive acting outless destructive
>actions
or poor judgement exercised, more chronically douzed, less alive,
>less
effectively dangerous also.
>
>----------
>From: Diane Carter[SMTP:dcarter@TOGETHER.NET]
>Sent: Sunday, August 17, 1997 5:38 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: On the Road: drunkenness
>
>. Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a
>whiskey
alcoholic? Any ideas?
>DC
>.-
Small
Press Authors and Publishers display books
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http://www.bookzen.com/addbook-form.html
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:18:29 -0700
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From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Naked Lunch: Benway
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Diane
writ:
<<
>pg.
37
>"Gentle
reader, the ugliness of that spectacle buggers description. Who
>can
be a cringing pissing coward, yet vicious as a purple-assed mandril,
>alternating
these deplorable conditions like vaudeville skits? Who can
>shit
on a fallen adversary who, dying, easts the shit and screams with
>joy?
[this was reminiscent stanzas of Howl that all being with who,
>and
especially where Ginsberg writes, "Who let themselves be fucked in
>the
ass by saintly motorcyclists and screemed with joy"] Who can hang a
>weak
passive and catch the sperm in his mouth like a vivious dog? Gentle
>reader,
I fain would spare you this, but my pen hath its will like the
>Ancient
Mariner. Oh Christ what a scene is
this! Can tongue or pen
>accommodate
these scandels? A beastly young
hooligan has gouged out the
>eye
of his confrere and fuck him in the brain. 'This brain atrophy
>already,
and dry as grandmother's cunt."
>>
Diane,
as always, thanx for typin out all this.
My hands would hurt.
I
especially liked the 'eye gouging' part.
So many poets have eye
fetishes. The denigration of the bodily act, the
removal from the body,
and
it's associations with dark and perverted actions. Then associating
all of
this with different layers of meaning.
Goes back to the Oedipus
thoughts
I had while watching the movie "event horizon". One can also
get
into dreams and their visions from here also.
Perhaps this is a
clue
towards your questions of why Burroughs is always writing from the
outside
<??>
<<
>You
have to admire Burroughs vivid descriptions, although it's hard to
>figure
out what brings about these visions where everything is out of
>Control:
>
>"Rock
and Roll adolescent hoodlums storm the streets of all nations.
>They
rush into the Louvre and throw acid on Mona Lisa's face. They open
>zoos,
insane asylums, prisons, burst water mains with air hammers, chop
>the
floor out of passenger plane lavatories, shoot out lighthouses, file
>elevator
cables to one thin wire, turn sewers into the water supply,
>throw
sharks and sting rays, electric eels and candiru into swimming
>pools
(the candiru is a small eel-like fish or worm about one-quarter
>inch
through and two inches long patronizing certain rivers of ill repute
>in
the Greater Amazon Basin, will dart up your prick or your asshole or a
>woman's
cunt faute de mieux, and hold himself there by sharp spines with
>precisely
what motives is not known since no one has stepped forward to
>observe
the candiru's life-cycle in situ), in nautical costumes ram the
>Queen
Mary full speed into New York Harbor, play chicken with passenger
>planes
and buses, rush into hospital with white coats carrying saws and
>axes
and scalpels three feet long; throw paralytics out of iron lungs
>(mimic
their suffocations flopping about on the floor and rolling their
>eyes
up), administer injections with bicycle pumps, disconnect artificial
>kidneys,
saw a woman in half with a two-man surgical saw, they drive
>herds
of squeeling pigs into the Curb, they shit on the floors of the
>United
Nations and wipe their asses with treaties, pacts, and alliances."
>>
Have
you ever been stuck in a bathroom line, Diane?
just holding it in,
watching
all these men go ahead of you into their own stalls? Questions
and
visions such as those above begin to creep in.
Destroying the order
as it
appears to you thru a yellow, jaundiced eye.
Rationalizing the
acts of
madmen who do all these incalculable things.
Inverting the
natural
order and following that back to it's source.
Makes me think of
the TV
shows "x-files" and "millenium" (by Chris Carter). Getting into
the
mind of chaos, as burroughs says, unable to stop his pen or tongue
from
writing all that out. And I won't go as
far as say that his
descriptions
are an apology, are an act of "writing away death" per se.
I don't
know.
and by
the way, did you ever get a satisfactory answer to this question:
"Does
the narrator have power in
his
observations and the words he uses, or is he merely a scribe forced
to
write about that which he cannot change?"
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:14:44 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re[2]: On the Road: drunkenness
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>Whiskey
is expensive. Whiskey alcoholics have more money. By the time the
>alcoholic
gets to wine he/she is usually close to the bottom of the
>economic
ladder.
>j
grant
"...the bottom ofthe economic
ladder." To keep this within the
framework of the BEAT-L list I'll phrase
my reply this way. Since
Jack was never un-voluntarily homeless,
always had *some* money, and
most likely died from the consequences of
alcoholism, you can draw the
conclusion that there is no such thing as
"economic alcoholism".
Alcoholics come in all lifestyles,
economic classes and ethnic
backgrounds, from both genders. While there probably aren't as many
alcoholic millionaires as there are broke
ones, the view that the only
people suffering from alcoholism are
"bums on the street" went out a
long time ago. Heck, I even know a recovering alcoholic who owns a
computer :-)
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:12:15 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: On the Road: drunkenness
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>
Whiskey is expensive. Whiskey alcoholics have more money. By the time the
>
alcoholic gets to wine he/she is usually close to the bottom of the
>
economic ladder.
perhaps
jack just liked wine?
>
> j
grant
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:47:28 -0400
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Lou Reed and the Beats
In-Reply-To: <3F87BB00.@usoc.org>
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On Mon,
18 Aug 1997, MATT HANNAN wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, oh those more
knowledgeable than me" but
> didn't WSB hang out with Andy
Warhol? If so there's a connection, if
> not an influence.
>
> love and lilies,
>
> matt
>
Actually,
it was Allen Ginsberg who hung out with Warhol back in the 60's
when
Warhol was hot. Burroughs was living in
London so wouldnt have met
Warhol
until many years later when Warhol was past his "fifteen minutes"
of fame
and past when Burroughs hadwritten mostof his works. So Idont
think
there was a direct influence.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:34:28 -0600
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch (fwd)
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yall
i
thought that some of you might be interesteed in this, which i found on
alt.books.beatgeneration
(man there is a lot of junk and trolling on that
newsgroup,
egad!)
yrs
derek
----------
Forwarded message ----------
Date:
Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:48:34 -0700
From:
Richard Hughey <rkhughey@pacbell.net>
Newsgroups:
alt.books.beatgeneration
Subject:
Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch
New
book on Lew Welch: Hey Lew! Homage to Lew Welch.
Interviews,
poems, biosketches, photos, drawings etc.
on S.F.
BeatGen poet Lew Welch.
Edited
by Magda Cregg, who lived with Lew 1964-1971.
Contributors:
Snyder, Whelan, Creeley, Meltzer, Kyger,
McClure
etc., also Peter Coyote and Huey Lewis.
Write
Magda Cregg, Box 964, Bolinas CA 94924.
Copies:
$12 post paid.
RKH
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:13:36 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: John Arthur Maynard
<prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Road: drunkenness
Mime-Version:
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>>. Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a
>>whiskey
alcoholic? Any ideas?
>>DC
>>.-
I think
the high sugar content (seems to me Jack often refers to "sweet
port")
tends to deliver more brain-mash effect than the same dose of alcohol
administered
through whisky. That would help explain
why the big sellers on
skid
row and in the inner city seem to be port, tokay and rotgut sherry.
Plus,
since the alcohol content is lower than whisky, you can keep drinking
longer...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:49:18 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch (fwd)
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Hi all,
I
recently read Aram Saroyan's Genesis Angels (good book!) and it
mentioned
something interesting. According to him, during Lew Welch's
last
few days at an advertising agency he culled the famous Raid slogan:
'Raid
Kills Bugs Dead.'
How
true is this? I'd like it to be true, it'd be cool to know there's a
little
conribution by Welch to 20th century pop culture.
Anyone
know the truth behind this?
Adrien
Derek
A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
>
yall
> i
thought that some of you might be interesteed in this, which i found on
>
alt.books.beatgeneration (man there is a lot of junk and trolling on that
>
newsgroup, egad!)
>
yrs
>
derek
>
>
---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:48:34 -0700
>
From: Richard Hughey <rkhughey@pacbell.net>
>
Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration
>
Subject: Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch
>
>
New book on Lew Welch: Hey Lew! Homage to Lew Welch.
>
Interviews, poems, biosketches, photos, drawings etc.
> on
S.F. BeatGen poet Lew Welch.
>
Edited by Magda Cregg, who lived with Lew 1964-1971.
>
Contributors: Snyder, Whelan, Creeley, Meltzer, Kyger,
>
McClure etc., also Peter Coyote and Huey Lewis.
>
Write Magda Cregg, Box 964, Bolinas CA 94924.
>
Copies: $12 post paid.
>
RKH
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:59:30 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Levi Asher
<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Lou Reed and the Beats
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970818154533.29685A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
from "Richard Wallner"
at Aug 18, 97 03:47:28 pm
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Well,
Lou Reed was one of the speakers at the memorial
service
for Ginsberg at St. Mark's Church this past
April. He read "Magic and Loss." I've often thought
of Lou
as fairly Beat-like, tho I don't think there
are
many actual connections.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
|
|
|
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
|
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|
|
|
| "It was my dream that
screwed up" |
| -- Jack
Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:16:51 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the
hipsters
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About
the Slim Gaillard trivia question posed by Antoine Maloney,
I don't
know.
That's
why I didn't hazard a guess.
As I
remember it was who is Slim famous musician son-in-law.
OK,
times up I give and it seems like no one else is going to pose an answer
so...
OK, who?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:18:34 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the
hipsters
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Answer
to my trivia question.
I asked
what PBS show did Jack kerouac say the slim gaillard line "flat foot
floogie
with the floy floy"?
If I am
not mistaken I believe it was on William F. Buckeley's Firing Line.
Apparently
Jack got up and said it somehwhat out of the blue.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:38:12 +0200
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Awww, mama... can this really... be the
end...
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memphis blues again by Bob Dylan
oh the ragman draws circles
up and down the block
I'd ask him what the matter was
but I know that he don't talk
and the ladies treat me kindly
and they furnish me with tea
but deep inside my heart
I know I can't escape
oh mama can this really be the end
to be stuck inside of mobile
with the memphis blues again
well shakespeare he's in the alley
with his pointed shoes and his bells
speaking to some french girl
who says she knows me well
and I would send a message
to find out if she's talked
but the post office has been stolen
and the mailbox is locked
mona tried to tell me
to stay away from the train line
she said that all the rairoad men
just drink up your blood like wine
and I said oh I didn't know that
but then again there's only one I've
met
and he just smoked my eyelids
and punched my cigarette
grandpa died last week
and now he's buried in the rocks
but everybody still talks about
how badly they were shocked
but me I experienced it to happen
I knew he'd lost control
when he built a fire on main street
and shot it full of holes
now the senator came down here
showing everyone his gun
handling out free tickets
to the wedding of his son
but me I nearly got busted
and wouldn't it be my luck
to get caught without a ticket
and be discovered beneath a truck
now the tea pitcher looked so baffled
when I asked him why he dressed
with twenty pounds of headlines
stapled to his chest
but he cursed me when I proved to him
then I whispered and said
not even you can hide
you see you're just like me
I hope you're satisfied
now the rainman gave me two cures
and said jump right in
the one was texas medicine
the other was just railroad gin
and like a fool I mixed them
and it strangled up my mind
and now people just get uglier
and I have no sense of time
when ruthie says come see her
in her honky tonk lagoon
where I can watch her waltz for free
neath her panamanian moon
and I say oh come on now
you know you know about my debutante
and she says your debutante just knows
what you need
but I know what you want
now the bricks lay on the grand street
where the neon madman climb
they all fall there so perfectly
they all seem so well timed
and here I sit so patiently
waiting to find out what price
you have to pay to get out of
going through all these things twice
oh mama can this really be the end
to be stuck inside of mobile
with the memphis blues again
[Bob
Dylan, Blonde on Blonde, 1966]
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:36:54 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Stuck inside of Mobile
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> and I say oh come on now
> you know you know about my debutante
> and she says your debutante just
knows
> what you need
> but I know what you want
>
Rinaldo,
Thanks
for posting and refreshing the memory.
It is just unreal how
"on"
Dylan was in Hwy 61 and Blonde on Blonde.
Wore a lot those records
out
myself, as I imagine most of us did.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:41:52 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Naked Lunch: Benway
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>
Penn, Douglas, K. wrote:
>
Have you ever been stuck in a bathroom line, Diane? just holding it
>
in,
>
watching all these men go ahead of you into their own stalls?
>
Questions
>
and visions such as those above begin to creep in. Destroying the
>
order
> as
it appears to you thru a yellow, jaundiced eye. Rationalizing the
>
acts of madmen who do all these incalculable things. Inverting the
>
natural order and following that back to it's source. Makes me think
> of
>
the TV shows "x-files" and "millenium" (by Chris
Carter). Getting into
>
the mind of chaos, as burroughs says, unable to stop his pen or tongue
>
from writing all that out. And I won't
go as far as say that his
>
descriptions are an apology, are an act of "writing away death" per
se.
> I
don't know.
No,
never been stuck in a bathroom line waiting for the MEN to go in
before
me. But are you saying that Burroughs'
descriptions in the quoted
paragraphs
are just the kinds of things that come into people's head
every
day as they run into things that make their bodies uncomfortable?
Is that
equivalent to the discomfort of waiting for junk? Waiting for
anything?
Waiting for Godot perhaps? Dark
humor. A horror show in the
mind. Burroughs seems to take us on a journey
through the
deconstruction,
perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through
horrific
images but what does do his images actually evoke? It seems
that
this line of discovery would be important since individual words and
images
are the only thing that hold together a work without any real
characters
or progression of events.
>
and by the way, did you ever get a satisfactory answer to this > question:
>
>
"Does the narrator have power in
>
his observations and the words he uses, or is he merely a scribe forced
> to
write about that which he cannot change?"
No, I'm
still waiting for ideas, I was going to say answers, but I don;t
think
there are any.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:57:22 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970816230359.006adf80@pop.gpnet.it> from "Rinaldo
Rasa" at Aug 16, 97
11:03:59 pm
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Slightly
slow response on my part, but:
Rinaldo
wrote:
>
"A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to
>
remove love from his being in order to avoid,
>
has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable
> to
castration."-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.
>
From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."
As
somebody who calls himself a Buddhist, I'd like
to say
that Burroughs comments about the religion are
at
least very intelligent. He grasps the
essence
of
Buddhism, which is self-denial. I like
it
when
somebody comes up with a *good* reason not
to be a
Buddhist, and Burroughs' reasons are good.
Reminds
me of when I first read Neitzsche's similar
scorching
of the Buddhist religion in "A Genealogy
of
Morals," when I was around 19 years old.
This
led me
to a crisis of faith that lasted a couple of
years. I respect Burroughs and Neitzsche for
understanding
what Buddhism is and choosing to
position
themselves against it. That's better
than
flimsily paying lip service to it, or
attacking
it for misinformed reasons.
All I
can really say in counterpoint is that we
all
come up with our ways of dealing with "the
slings
and arrows of outrageous fortune."
I've
written
somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine
skin"
-- that was his defense mechanism.
Neitzsche
never
got a good defense mechanism going, maybe
because
he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but
he
lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible
misery. The Buddhist practice is just another
way of
surviving. Ultimately I don't think
there's
anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes
felt
what Buddha felt when he said "All Life
is
Suffering." And I also don't
think there's
any
Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt
that
life was just peachy keen and a whole lot
of fun.
As for
this though:
> "When the Vietnamese communists
> took Saigon in 1975, they put their
"class
> enemies" into re-education
camps. In
> neighboring Cambodia, Pol Pot built
exter-
> mination camps. Techears, doctors,
people
> who could speak a foreing language,
even
> people who wore glasses, were purged
as
> he sought to reduce all of Cambodia
to the
> level of the peasant class. The
Vietnamese
> could be cruel captors, but their
Confucian
> heritage left them open to
educational re-
> form. In Cambodia, by contrast,
Buddhism
> encouraged a belief in the
ineluctability
> of karma and the idea that evil
suffered
> is evil deserved. ''The idea of karma
> goes very deep in this society, and I
> think that was part of the mentality
of
> the Khmer Rouge when they were
massacring
> people,'' said Francois Ponvhaud, a
priest
> who first went in Cambodia in 1965.
'' They
> believed their victims had made
errors,
> political errors, and that killing
them
> would allow them to be reborn as
better
> people in their next lives''. Pol Pot
has
> admitted to some mistakes in the
period
> from 1975 to 1979, but in his eyes
they
> were mistakes of policy. About the
million
> dead, he has never expressed any
remorse."
> From "Terry McCarthy-- TIME,AUGUST 11,1997."
I'm
sorry, this is what I'd call the kind of
misinformed
criticism that *does* piss me off.
Cambodia
and Vietnam were both Thereveda Buddhist
countries
-- this notion that some vague threads
of Confucianism
in Vietnamese culture were what
saved
it from the evils that befell Cambodia
may
make a nice little Time article, but is
way too
flimsy to stand as a philosophical critique
of a
religion. And China was more Confician
than
Vietnam -- how would he explain Mao's crimes
against
humanity? This just doesn't stand up,
it's
just the kind of dull analytic blather
that
keeps political pundits employed, in my
never-very-humble
(but I'm trying) opinion.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
|
|
|
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
|
|
|
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|
|
|
| "It was my dream that
screwed up" |
| -- Jack
Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:50:08 -0700
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.
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I
wondered when or if anyone would comment about this. Glad to see it.
I did
note in Burroughs letter that he talks about Buddhism and then
mentions
reading Theosophy tracts. I think this
is an indication of maybe a
watered
down or distorted understanding or view because I don't think the
Theospophical
Society has much relation to Buddhism really.
But, that's
another
argument.
But as
well another but, I hoped to make the same point about Vietnam and
Cambodia
in light of Mao and China.
I don't
know how confucian Cambodia was/is compared to Vietnam but China
certainly
was confucian. Interestingly Mao hated
confucius more than anything.
Also, I
wouldn't take at face value that the Vietnamese communists only
re-educated
their enemies. And also remember that
they didn't "win" until
1975. If they'd have come to power a decade
earlier things would be very
different
as well.
My
in-laws are heavy duty Buddhist and one of the things I've noticed is
their
Buddhism seems to be very different from the sort of dry and
intellectual
or philosophical type of Buddism that you hear most about in
the
US. It would be interesting to hear
about these differences between
"real"
(real in quotes in quotes) Buddhists and American's who practice
Buddhism.
At
03:57 PM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Slightly
slow response on my part, but:
>
>Rinaldo
wrote:
>>
"A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to
>>
remove love from his being in order to avoid,
>>
has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable
>>
to castration."-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.
>>
From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."
>
>As
somebody who calls himself a Buddhist, I'd like
>to
say that Burroughs comments about the religion are
>at
least very intelligent. He grasps the
essence
>of
Buddhism, which is self-denial. I like
it
>when
somebody comes up with a *good* reason not
>to
be a Buddhist, and Burroughs' reasons are good.
>
>Reminds
me of when I first read Neitzsche's similar
>scorching
of the Buddhist religion in "A Genealogy
>of
Morals," when I was around 19 years old.
This
>led
me to a crisis of faith that lasted a couple of
>years. I respect Burroughs and Neitzsche for
>understanding
what Buddhism is and choosing to
>position
themselves against it. That's better
>than
flimsily paying lip service to it, or
>attacking
it for misinformed reasons.
>
>All
I can really say in counterpoint is that we
>all
come up with our ways of dealing with "the
>slings
and arrows of outrageous fortune."
I've
>written
somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine
>skin"
-- that was his defense mechanism.
Neitzsche
>never
got a good defense mechanism going, maybe
>because
he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but
>he
lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible
>misery. The Buddhist practice is just another
>way
of surviving. Ultimately I don't think
>there's
anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes
>felt
what Buddha felt when he said "All Life
>is
Suffering." And I also don't
think there's
>any
Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt
>that
life was just peachy keen and a whole lot
>of
fun.
>
>As
for this though:
>> "When the Vietnamese communists
>> took Saigon in 1975, they put their
"class
>> enemies" into re-education
camps. In
>> neighboring Cambodia, Pol Pot built
exter-
>> mination camps. Techears, doctors,
people
>> who could speak a foreing language,
even
>> people who wore glasses, were purged
as
>> he sought to reduce all of Cambodia
to the
>> level of the peasant class. The
Vietnamese
>> could be cruel captors, but their
Confucian
>> heritage left them open to
educational re-
>> form. In Cambodia, by contrast,
Buddhism
>> encouraged a belief in the
ineluctability
>> of karma and the idea that evil
suffered
>> is evil deserved. ''The idea of karma
>> goes very deep in this society, and I
>> think that was part of the mentality
of
>> the Khmer Rouge when they were
massacring
>> people,'' said Francois Ponvhaud, a
priest
>> who first went in Cambodia in 1965.
'' They
>> believed their victims had made
errors,
>> political errors, and that killing
them
>> would allow them to be reborn as
better
>> people in their next lives''. Pol Pot
has
>> admitted to some mistakes in the
period
>> from 1975 to 1979, but in his eyes
they
>> were mistakes of policy. About the
million
>> dead, he has never expressed any
remorse."
>> From "Terry McCarthy--
TIME,AUGUST 11,1997."
>
>I'm
sorry, this is what I'd call the kind of
>misinformed
criticism that *does* piss me off.
>Cambodia
and Vietnam were both Thereveda Buddhist
>countries
-- this notion that some vague threads
>of
Confucianism in Vietnamese culture were what
>saved
it from the evils that befell Cambodia
>may
make a nice little Time article, but is
>way
too flimsy to stand as a philosophical critique
>of
a religion. And China was more
Confician
>than
Vietnam -- how would he explain Mao's crimes
>against
humanity? This just doesn't stand up,
>it's
just the kind of dull analytic blather
>that
keeps political pundits employed, in my
>never-very-humble
(but I'm trying) opinion.
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>|
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
>|
|
>| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
>| (3
years old and still running)
|
>|
|
>| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
>| (a real book, like on paper) |
>| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
>|
|
>|
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
|
>|
|
>| "It was my dream that
screwed up" |
>| -- Jack Kerouac |
>------------------------------------------------------
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:14:50 -0700
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From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Naked Lunch: Benway
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Diane
writ:
<<
>Burroughs
seems to take us on a journey through the
>deconstruction,
perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through
>horrific
images but what does do his images actually evoke? It seems
>that
this line of discovery would be important since individual words and
>images
are the only thing that hold together a work without any real
>characters
or progression of events.
>>
Well,
let me steal some words from "Surrealists and Surrealism" (pg34)
to
answer your question of what his images actually invoke:
<<
A trite
phrase or an illustration from a mail-order catalogue: this
external
element was essential, but as a starting point, not as an end
in
itself. A bulwark set up to stem the
unwanted influx of the
conventional,
the aesthetic, the bogus and the shallow, its function was
to get
the self-imposed censor out of the way.
And because we come
smack
up against that commonplace or that borrowed drawing (or
whatever),
the cloud bursts and manna comes down.
The familiar, the
already
seen, the already read, crumples up and reveals the never yet
seen,
the never yet read. But the operation
would not come off if it
were
merely a montage of external elements:
for those externals to be
seen
through, they have to be shifted into the realm of mirages. The
disconnected
words will only cast their spell if borne aloft on the
breath
of poetry. The fixed planes of the
collage are the unpredictable
episodes
of a film whose inner impetus alone keeps the machinery turning
over.
We are
as yet only in 1919, and these initial soundings of the depths
may be
mistaken for the unsubsided effervescence of Dada, on which
Aragon
commented: "Anyhow the world gets a good laugh out of their
antics."
>>
Thus,
if I'm translating correctly, his images [nouns] of junk, society,
and
(please add here) (a) remove the censor, (2) reveal the unseen in
the
seen, (3) and translate the commonplace into poetry, (4) reveal the
"fixed"
planes of his cross topics, and (5) give a clue to the "inner
impetus"
of "the machine".
But
what his inner impetus is, or what the machine actually does,
well,...??
and
then there's the idea that the medium is the message (Marshall
McCluhen). That the collage technique that WSB uses is
meant for a
specific
purpose. That besides the basic
organization of the novel,
it's
possible to use the resultant chaos to interpret words, characters,
scenarios
in new ways. New ways to write a novel,
ways to live, to get
junk
(in a non-physical way), and to escape death??
and
lastly: humour.
BUT: the surrealists were always using
"commonplace" items and
subverting
them. WSB and the associated images
seem to be starting from
the
opposite, with "highly charged" subculture items and working them
back to
commonplace ideas. I could be
absolutely wrong here, but it's a
theory
to work with at least.
- not
just rebelling against the ordinary
- not
just organizing and editing the surreal
- not
just idealizing the possibilities
- but
starting with the idea of a fucked up universe and working
backwords
in a purifying manner to a universe which contains it's
[opposite]???
[[I'd
really like to pass the painter Yves Tanguey thru WSB, but can't
find a
book!!]]
and if
I had WWW access, I'd give you a link to a Robert Williams or
S.Clay
Wilson graphic. Same ideas, me
thinks. I DON'T KNOW. I should
spend
more time building the engine than analyzing the race. Going home
now...
>>
DC
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:19:50 -0400
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From: "P.A.Maher"
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Enlightments by Kerouac
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Coming
soon:
On The Kerouac Quarterly web page,
paintings based on Kerouac's
"Enlghtments"
in POMES ALL SIZES. . . .as they are completed..these oils
will be
photographed, posted and auctioned off (with a set ceiling price of
$50.00)
and minimum bid feom $5.00. If you like the paintings try for them,
if you
thinkthey suck wellll. . .. .don't.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html
For an
example of the kind of art they will look like go see "The Flood of
Dr.Sax"
go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page2.html
I want
these paintings to be low-priced and accessible, not a ton of money.
Because
art, like the magic muse that inspires them, should be free like air. .
1st
Enlightment: When you become enlightened you will know that you've been
enlightened
all along. (Jack Kerouac, page 66 POMES ALL SIZES). . .
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:06:49 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Naked Lunch: Benway (Sekhu Surface
I)
In-Reply-To: <33F85F30.E1E@together.net>
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At 7:41
AM -0700 8/18/97, Diane Carter wrote:
>
Burroughs seems to take us on a journey through the
>
deconstruction, perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through
>
horrific images but what does do his images actually evoke? It seems
>
that this line of discovery would be important since individual words and
>
images are the only thing that hold together a work without any real
>
characters or progression of events.
>
At 3:57
PM -0700 8/18/97, Levi Asher wrote:
All I
can really say in counterpoint is that we
all
come up with our ways of dealing with "the
slings
and arrows of outrageous fortune."
I've
written
somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine
skin"
-- that was his defense mechanism.
Neitzsche
never
got a good defense mechanism going, maybe
because
he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but
he
lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible
misery. The Buddhist practice is just another
way of
surviving. Ultimately I don't think
there's
anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes
felt
what Buddha felt when he said "All Life
is
Suffering." And I also don't
think there's
any
Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt
that
life was just peachy keen and a whole lot
of fun.
> DC
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
|
|
|
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
|
|
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
|
|
| "It was my dream that
screwed up" |
| -- Jack
Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ |
0 | The map is
not the
territory
| { -
| --Korzybski
----> |
/\ |
=========
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:32:53 -0700
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From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: (Sekhu Surface II)
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At 7:41
AM -0700 8/18/97, Diane Carter wrote:
At 3:57
PM -0700 8/18/97, Levi Asher wrote:
is
Suffering." And I also don't
think there's
any
Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt
>
that this line of discovery would be important since individual words and
way of
surviving. Ultimately I don't think
of
fun.skin" -- that was his defense mechanism. Neitzsche
he
lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible
all
come up with our ways of dealing with "the
>
characters or progression of events.
>
>
images are the only thing that hold together a work without any real
never
got a good defense mechanism going, maybe
>
Burroughs seems to take us on a journey through the
>
deconstruction, perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through
All I
can really say in counterpoint is that we
>
horrific images but what does do his images actually evoke? It seems
slings
and arrows of outrageous fortune."
I've
written
somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine
because
he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but
misery. The Buddhist practice is just another
there's
anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes
felt
what Buddha felt when he said "All Life
that
life was just peachy keen and a whole lot
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:50:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: "it's all right ma, i'm only
lurking
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970819003812.006870dc@pop.gpnet.it>
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in the
midst of post bashing and furious
reading of many texts this past
month,
i find myself uncharacteristcally silent. if i have sent this over
the
list before, please fogive my lousy mailer and memory. just wanted to
say
hello to all.
mc
on not
writing
i have
not been writing
i have
been painting
i have
not thought of words,
but
rather of
colors,
shapes,
blending, edging,
worlds
building on the page
is it
sleep
is it
dreaming
who is
doing the painting?
landscapes
of the mind
appear
regularly as if
plucked
out of thin air.
no
memory
beyond the intent to paint
dreams
of eternal landscape
building word less poems
not
asleep
nor waking.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:57:12 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction????
and Chapter 1
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
> Is
anyone ready to discuss books yet?
I just
got OTR from the salina public library yesterday (is a public
library
more communistic, socialistic, cooperative or what??? never
mind) .
. .
SHOCKING. They have a sticker on it as Young Adult
Fiction.
Now
part of me drew back in horror at the thought of them doing this to
a
wonderful book
but a
sinister and subversive side of me likes very much that this book
will be
in the young adult section. i may even
begin to roam the
shelves
of the fiction section and make other suggestions for Young
Adult
classifications of REAL authors.
I have
started Chapter One.
I guess
it is sort of beating a dead mule but i'm asking myself about
JK's
treatment of the character MaryLou.
The
most troublesome thing to me is not that the character is described
as dumb
and as a whore and whatnot. The most
troubling thing is that
the
character is compleatly silent - voiceless.
Some woman - and
perhaps
MaryLou will be one of them - are dumb and whores (just as many
men
are). But the dismissing of the first
woman in a voiceless manner
is
troublesome.
I am
not dwelling on this though and will continue to plow forward.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:39:44 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@voicenet.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction????
and Chapter 1
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HA! This makes me remember back to when I was in
eighth grade, and a
classmate
did a book report on OTR. This was back
before I was into
Kerouac,
so I didn't know much. All I can
remember from his report is:
"This
book really isn't about anything. It's
just this dude driving across
the
country."
Greg
Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
|| elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
-----Original
Message-----
From:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Tuesday, August 19, 1997 7:59 AM
Subject:
Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1
>Diane
Carter wrote:
>>
>>
Is anyone ready to discuss books yet?
>
>I
just got OTR from the salina public library yesterday (is a public
>library
more communistic, socialistic, cooperative or what??? never
>mind)
. . .
>SHOCKING. They have a sticker on it as Young Adult
Fiction.
>Now
part of me drew back in horror at the thought of them doing this to
>a
wonderful book
>but
a sinister and subversive side of me likes very much that this book
>will
be in the young adult section. i may
even begin to roam the
>shelves
of the fiction section and make other suggestions for Young
>Adult
classifications of REAL authors.
>
>I
have started Chapter One.
>I
guess it is sort of beating a dead mule but i'm asking myself about
>JK's
treatment of the character MaryLou.
>The
most troublesome thing to me is not that the character is described
>as
dumb and as a whore and whatnot. The
most troubling thing is that
>the
character is compleatly silent - voiceless.
Some woman - and
>perhaps
MaryLou will be one of them - are dumb and whores (just as many
>men
are). But the dismissing of the first
woman in a voiceless manner
>is
troublesome.
>
>I
am not dwelling on this though and will continue to plow forward.
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:05:11 +0200
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.
In-Reply-To:
<199708182257.PAA12729@netcom18.netcom.com>
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hello
all beat friends,
--**--
i was
*alot* staggered by the TIME article (quoted in the
previous
post), the Pol Pot *violence with charm*,
the
only XXme siecle utopia realized (1975-1979)
&
one million dead, (Pol Pot was in childhood educated to
become
a buddhist monk, & was a gentle schoolboy),
--**--
the
beat's acceptance of buddishm & the Jack Keroauc's tragic death.
JK
shifts from the catholic religion to buddishm as better resource for
a safe
life. But at the end JK undermined himself, i think,
& i
maybe wrong, that Eastern Lands aren't the response anyway...
--**--
Levi
Asher wrote:
[excuse
me for snippin' for brevity]
>I've
written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine
>skin"
-- that was his defense mechanism.
Neitzsche
>never
got a good defense mechanism going, maybe
>because
he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but
>he
lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible
>misery.
The "porcupine skin" was an
apologue written by
Arthur Schopenhauer (Nietzsche's
master of philosophy),
the first western philosopher who
studied & embraced
the eastern thought (id est, ''Parerga
e Paralipomena''),
also Freud at last quoted the
"porcupine" in his
thougth 'bout "the discomfourt in
the society". Both
Schopenhauer & Nietzsche promoted
having for
themself darkness & pain. Perhaps
giving unconscious thread to
future nazi ideology... pain as a
value in itself without
any salvation.
>The
Buddhist practice is just another
>way
of surviving. Ultimately I don't think
>there's
anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes
>felt
what Buddha felt when he said "All Life
>is
Suffering." And I also don't
think there's
>any
Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt
>that
life was just peachy keen and a whole lot
>of
fun.
"Vistors to Cambodia have come
away charmed by the lush
beauty of the countryside and the
smiling people.
But the violent side and the Cambodian
life can manifest
itself without warning.
''Cambodian have this darkness, which
is part of the
shadow of their sweetness,'' says
David Chandler, who has
written a biography of Pol Pot and
several histories of
the country. ''Many of us who keep
going there still hard
to understand.'' Chandler observes
that Pol Pot, with his
gentle voice, never failed to charm
those he met. He
liked to quote French poetry. This was
the same man who had
his staff executed after his house in
Phnom Penh had
power failure."
>And
China was more Confician
>than
Vietnam -- how would he explain Mao's crimes
>against
humanity? This just doesn't stand up,
>it's
just the kind of dull analytic blather
>that
keeps political pundits employed, in my
>never-very-humble
(but I'm trying) opinion.
>
"Ancient violence takes on new
forms: the
practice of setting fire to brides
because of
the inadequacy of their dowries is on
increase,
there is terrifying evidence that
ritual child
sacrifice is being practiced by some
followers
of the cult of goddess Kali, and
communal violence
erupts regularly" -- Salman
Rushdie, 1997.
saluti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:36:34 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.
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Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
Levi Asher wrote:
>
[excuse me for snippin' for brevity]
>
>I've written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine
>
>skin" -- that was his defense mechanism. Neitzsche
>
>never got a good defense mechanism going, maybe
>
>because he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but
>
>he lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible
>
>misery.
>
> The "porcupine skin" was an
apologue written by
> Arthur Schopenhauer (Nietzsche's
master of philosophy),
> the first western philosopher who
studied & embraced
> the eastern thought (id est,
''Parerga e Paralipomena''),
> also Freud at last quoted the
"porcupine" in his
> thougth 'bout "the discomfourt
in the society". Both
> Schopenhauer & Nietzsche promoted
having for
> themself darkness & pain. Perhaps
giving unconscious thread to
> future nazi ideology... pain as a
value in itself without
> any salvation.
i've
had the feeling many times that WSB lived in many ways a form of
buddhist
life without claiming it - or perhaps explicitly denying it -
and
being willing to cut off the arm of youngsters who claimed this
connection. at the risk of my arms i'm throwing this
out.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:05:37 -0400
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From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Darkness of Buddhism.
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Hi
Levi--Good to have you back on the list (my own slow response, I know).
I agree
with you that Burroughs's comments on Buddhism are intelligent
rather
than purely misinformed. I do think
some questions of accuracy
remain,
however:
>Slightly
slow response on my part, but:
>
>Rinaldo
wrote:
>>
"A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to
>>
remove love from his being in order to avoid,
>>
has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable
>>
to castration."-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.
>>
From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."
>
>As
somebody who calls himself a Buddhist, I'd like
>to
say that Burroughs comments about the religion are
>at
least very intelligent. He grasps the
essence
>of
Buddhism, which is self-denial.
I've
never had the impression that this "self-denial" is the
"essence" of
Buddhism. What seems denied in Buddhism is a belief in
an essential,
unchanging
self--a self independent of and unencumbered by historical and
material
conditions. Buddhism denies this kind
of self, sure, as much as it
denies
the opposite idea of selfhood: a self
so mutable and changeable that
it
cannot account for (and be responsible for) the joys and pains it creates
in the
mind.
Then
there are ascetic forms of self-denial or self-aversion (the "world"
is
"illusion"
and "I" cannot have "pleasure"--and suddenly every means of
experiencing
the world is framed by scare quotes), which is what I think
most
folks think of (wrongly) when they consider Buddhist self-denial. But
you
countered this asceticism best in your closing words:
>Ultimately
I don't think
>there's
anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes
>felt
what Buddha felt when he said "All Life
>is
Suffering." And I also don't
think there's
>any
Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt
>that
life was just peachy keen and a whole lot
>of
fun.
What
has always motivated me about Buddhism is the Madhyamika (sp?)
"middle-way"
school, in which both self-cherishing *and* self-aversion are
considered
dangerous extremes. I find that too often
in the West, we focus
on
Dharma teachings about self-cherishing without adding that the Buddha
also
cautioned against self-aversion. The
two, for me, seem inseparable.
>I
like it
>when
somebody comes up with a *good* reason not
>to
be a Buddhist, and Burroughs' reasons are good.
I also
like it when one finds *good* reasons not to be a Buddhist. What I
like in
the quotation Rinaldo posted was that Burroughs was not reading
against
Buddhism so much as against how one *practices* Buddhism. If the
core of
many Buddhisms is non-violence and altruism--and I think it is--then
Burroughs
is right on the mark, and is speaking against those who misuse
Buddhism
when he says, "A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to
remove
love from his being in order to avoid, has committed, in my mind, a
sacrilege
comparable to castration." The
little I know of the many
Buddhisms
in the contemporary world suggests to me that any person who uses
Buddhism
to "remove love" from one's own being--rather than habituate
oneself
to love--is indeed committing oneself to a form of self-aversion
that is
a sacrilege.
So,
what I see in the Burroughs quote, isn't so much a good reason not to be
a
Buddhist, but a good caution against how a religious practice such as
Buddhism
could be misused.
(Life
*is* peachy today--my cat-skratch'd-infected thumb is healing [I can
hit the
spacebar with hardly any pain], and a big old cup of coffee solved
the
suffering of waking . . .)
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:54:41 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction????
and Chapter 1
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>
RACE wrote:
> I
have started Chapter One.
> I
guess it is sort of beating a dead mule but i'm asking myself about
>
JK's treatment of the character MaryLou.
>
The most troublesome thing to me is not that the character is described
> as
dumb and as a whore and whatnot. The
most troubling thing is that
>
the character is compleatly silent - voiceless. Some woman - and
>
perhaps MaryLou will be one of them - are dumb and whores (just as many
>
men are). But the dismissing of the
first woman in a voiceless manner
> is
troublesome.
>
> I
am not dwelling on this though and will continue to plow forward.
I think
I've read five Kerouac books in a row and unfortunately this is
the way
he portrays all women, except for the one at the end of Big Sur,
who
actually was given to philosophical dialogue.
I think in On the Road
this
type of woman characterization is more prevelant too because he
spends
most of his time trying to imitate Cody's relationship with women,
which
in the across the country scenes is no more than random sex in
different
cities. I've decided the best way to
get past Kerouac's
attitude
toward women is to ignore it, believing that in great writing,
there
is no male or female anyway, only the experience of what it means
to be
human.
DC
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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:52:24 -0400
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From: "Preston Whaley Jr."
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction????
and Chapter 1
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David
Rhaesa,
Your
post touches on my own problems with JK's mysogyny. Visions of
Cody is
particularly egregious. Nevertheless, I
still think VC is one
of the
most forward looking works I've ever read.
I take the sexism and
its
result -- inability to hear the woman's voice -- to be a confession,
driven
by the artistic need to exorcise bigotry, i.e. blockages. Kerouac
acknowledged
the problem of patriarchy somewhere. He
said bad gender
relations
are man's fault. I think it's in On the
Road, but I can't
find
it. If any one knows please share.
glad to
be in the circle,
PW
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:09:07 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
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Subject: Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.
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>
Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
--**--
>
the beat's acceptance of buddishm & the Jack Keroauc's tragic death.
> JK
shifts from the catholic religion to buddishm as better resource for
> a
safe life. But at the end JK undermined himself, i think,
I don't
think that JK's shift to Buddhism ever held up well, or got him
anywhere,
it was only one more thing to try in his search for meaning.
Perhaps
the new book will prove differently, I'm beginning more to think
that he
found that there was no earthly use for any religion for none
could
prevent death, He goes on and on about what is the point of life,
birth,
or anything in view of the fact that we are all going to die. It
seems
also that the more he tried to get into Buddhism, peeling off
layers
of self, the more he found self-hatred.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:14:32 -0700
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From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Wino -- more darkness
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Hi. Finally something I can (maybe) sink my
teeth into?
Jack's
LOVE of wine...
It's
just one part of Jack's search for his truth.
Many of you who have
read
VISIONS OF CODY and other of Jack's books will recall his disgust
towards
the American dream and how he says that it robs people of their
instinct,
how it makes them forget what true happiness is... Well, it's
my
belief that Jack found the most beat characters he could find and
emulated
them in hope of finding satori or whatever.
An aspect of this
was the
wino. Jack loved winos! He really didn't have to be poor... he
could've
gone along with the MEAT WHEEL but he didn't.
He intentionally
dressed
like a bum, hung out with bums (in back alleys of redbrick
drinking
WINE)... it's kind of a retarded version of Sidhartha (please
excuse
my spelling) and his quest for enlightenment -- when he became
(crap!
I forget what they're called!) one of those little indian guys who
sits by
the river and doesn't eat and seeks enlightenment thru it and he
realizes
that it's a whole bunch of bull to keep tortureing yourself and
eventually
becomes the Buddha. Well, this was
Jack's road too, forcing
himself
into the bottom of society... except that while Jack had his
enlightenment
he was too addicted to the lifestyle to ever enjoy the
satori
of the good life.
The
Naked Lunch being like a movie comment was right on! I've always
thought
of that book as a sick movie/dream inside Bill's head... being
directed
by little globs of heroin... it even literally becomes a movie
during
the middle of the book.
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:17:55 -0700
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From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: one more thing...
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Sorry,
I forgot to tack this onto my last post:
What is
up with Jack Kerouac and the use of his word "redbrick"? I mean,
in VOC
he uses it maybe a million times! It's
also persvasive in his
poetry.
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:23:57 -0400
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mysgogyny (was On the Road: Young
adu....)
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On Tue,
19 Aug 1997, Preston Whaley Jr. wrote:
>
Your post touches on my own problems with JK's mysogyny. Visions of
>
Cody is particularly egregious.
Nevertheless, I still think VC is one
> of
the most forward looking works I've ever read.
I take the sexism and
>
its result -- inability to hear the woman's voice -- to be a confession,
>
driven by the artistic need to exorcise bigotry, i.e. blockages.
The
sexist attitudes of many of the beats is a real stumbling block for me
when it
comes to talking about and teaching the beats.
One of my friends
gave up
completely on the beats because of this after reading Dharma Bums
and
Tristessa. Trying to get people to look
past that is sometimes like
trying
to knock down a brick wall with your head.
And its hard to
contradict
those attitudes when you only have a handful of really
productive
women whose work you can showcase. Even
then most of them came
later
on. In the beginning it was Jack and
Neal and the boys and that's
about
it except for the girlfriends who rarely lasted that long.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:36:57 -0400
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From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the
hipsters
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Answer
to Quiz #2:
Slim's
son-in-law was Marvin Gaye, one of the crown princes of soul music.
He had
Slim Gaillard sit in on the album "Midnight Love"; he added
hand-clapping!?!
Anybody
know if Kerouac - Cassady were into doowop, Rhythm 'n blues or soul?
Antoine
**********
>About
the Slim Gaillard trivia question posed by Antoine Maloney,
>
>I
don't know.
>
>That's
why I didn't hazard a guess.
>
>As
I remember it was who is Slim famous musician son-in-law.
>
>OK,
times up I give and it seems like no one else is going to pose an answer
>so...
>
>OK, who?
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:50:40 -0700
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the
hipsters
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>Answer
to Quiz #2:
>
>Slim's
son-in-law was Marvin Gaye,
Wow! That's big time.
>one
of the crown princes of soul music.
>He
had Slim Gaillard sit in on the album "Midnight Love"; he added
>hand-clapping!?!
>
>Anybody
know if Kerouac - Cassady were into doowop, Rhythm 'n blues or soul?
>
>Antoine
>
> **********
>>About
the Slim Gaillard trivia question posed by Antoine Maloney,
>>
>>I
don't know.
>>
>>That's
why I didn't hazard a guess.
>>
>>As
I remember it was who is Slim famous musician son-in-law.
>>
>>OK,
times up I give and it seems like no one else is going to pose an answer
>>so...
>>
>>OK, who?
>>
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in
Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:33:57 +-200
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From: Arno Neele <arnoniem@TIP.NL>
Subject: AW: On the Road: Young adult fiction????
and Chapter 1
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"The
truth of the matter is we don't understand our women; we blame on them and
it's all our fault." (OTR, page 122)
Maybe
this is what you were looking for.
arno
----------
Van: Preston Whaley
Jr.[SMTP:paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 augustus 1997 16:52
Aan: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Onderwerp: Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction????
and Chapter 1
David
Rhaesa,
Your
post touches on my own problems with JK's mysogyny. Visions of
Cody is
particularly egregious. Nevertheless, I
still think VC is one
of the
most forward looking works I've ever read.
I take the sexism and
its
result -- inability to hear the woman's voice -- to be a confession,
driven
by the artistic need to exorcise bigotry, i.e. blockages. Kerouac
acknowledged
the problem of patriarchy somewhere. He
said bad gender
relations
are man's fault. I think it's in On the
Road, but I can't
find
it. If any one knows please share.
glad to
be in the circle,
PW
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:09:12 -0400
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re[2]: The Darkness of Buddishm.
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My
in-laws are heavy duty Buddhist and one of the things I've noticed is
their
Buddhism seems to be very different from the sort of dry and
intellectual
or philosophical type of Buddism that you hear most about in
the
US. It would be interesting to hear about
these differences between
"real"
(real in quotes in quotes) Buddhists and American's who practice
Buddhism.
There are many schools of Buddhism. The theology heavy schools of
Tibetan, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. are
very different than the Zen
Schools of China and Japan, as different
as Catholicism and the
"lighter" shades of
Protestantism.
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:54:29 -0400
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From: "Dawn B. Sova"
<DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction????
and Chapter 1
David
R. noted that the public library has OTR classified as "Young Adult
Fiction." I had to comment --- and hold onto your hat
when you hear this.
Just
completed for reference publisher Facts on File, Inc., two volumes of a
four-volume
set on censorship --- my two volumes were books that have been
censored/banned/challenged
for "Social" content and for "Erotic" content
(summaries/case
histories, etc.). Couldn't find my copy
of NAKED LUNCH, so I
ordered
a copy through interlibrary loan from another public library in the
county
system here in New Jersey. NAKED LUNCH is classed as "YA" in at
least 5
of those libraries!!! (Of course, many
others have "lost" it.) Know
something?? I laughed, and felt very subversive as I
said NOTHING!
I'd be
curious if other Beat books are similarly classified. What a
wonderful
way to let the system open minds.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:45:32 -0700
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.
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----------
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
i've
had the feeling many times that WSB lived in many ways a form of
buddhist
life without claiming it - or perhaps explicitly denying it -
and
being willing to cut off the arm of youngsters who claimed this
connection. at the risk of my arms i'm throwing this
out.
David
Am I
too literal here? Not literary enough?
David, I can hardly believe it? You
mean it?
leon