=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:16:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: list of jazz albums

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Great list.  I'll add one more that Kerouac writes about in OTR -- pgs.

112-114. The scene depicts Dean and Sal in rapture over "The Hunt" by

Wardell Grey and Dexter Gordon. It would make a great movie scene

incidently;if the movie conveys that energy it could make a jazz

renaissance. Anyway, The song is on a double album also called The Hunt.

It's a double album that also features Howard McGhee, Sonny Criss, and

Trummy Young.  It was a live gig recorded in 1947 in LA but released on

Arista in 1977.  Sound quality offends but the crowd is ecstatic --  Go!

Go! Go!

 

 

 

>Hi all you jazz fans....not to mention fans of other related Beat genres!

>

>        [Bruce Hartman, Ron Kovachs and others should chime in here also!]

>

>        I'll offer up the playlists from two compilations that I've made up

>that were trying to capture that taste and time. I'd add that there are som=

e

>others who didn't make it onto the list like Lester Young, Billie Holiday,

>Art Tatum, Duke Ellington and the exemplars of vocalese, scat, wordjazz,

>hipsemantic, and bebop vocals like King Pleasure, Leo Watson, Mel Torme (th=

e

>'Velevet Fog'), Ken Nordine, and Eddie Jefferson. They're on a third

>playlist that's harder to get at right now.

>

>        I'll also recommend Owen Thomas' book "Bebop:...(forget subtitle)"

>for those who really want to immerse themselves . He starts with Charlie

>Parker and deals with every other important bebop jazz player and their

>influences, by instrument.

>

>        For the Beat pure of heart, the Venice Biennale Discography is

>pretty complete and I'll e-mail a copy if anyone is real keen. And to quote

>Howard Park:

>

>        "Anybody with an interest in the spoken word and audio of the Beat

>Generation

>        should consider picking up a copy of Stephen Ronan's "Disks of the =

Gone

>        World", a 135 page compendium, involving a lifetime of research, of

>        information about Beat audio.  This is THE discography of the Beat

>Generation

>        covering the "big three" and poets like Bremser, Bukowski, McClure

>and tens

>        of others.  Its more than just a list, it has all sorts of other

>info too.

>

>        Contact Stephen Ronan at P.O. Box 5813, Berkeley, CA, 94705 (he's

>not online)

>        or e-mail me for price."

>

>        Regards,     Antoine

>

>

>        The two playlists are:

>

>        ***************

>

>+++...from the gone world.      =95     22

>

>Side 1  Antoine Maloney / 9th June, 1996

>

>big high song for somebody (Philip Whalen)      Roy Glenn 1958=7F

>Epistrophy (Monk - Clarke)      Thelonius Monk w/ Milt Jackson on vibes 194=

8

>Travellin' Blues                        Bulee =93Slim=94 Gaillard 1945

>Cosmic Rays                     Charlie Parker Quartet 1952

>State & 32nd                    Kenneth Rexroth1956 or =9159

>Picasso                                 Coleman Hawkins 1948

>9th & Hennepin                  Tom Waits=7F

>Clarinet with dripping faucet (recorded by Tony Schwartz)       Jimmy

>Giuffre 1959

>dog (Ferlinghetti)                      Bob Dorough 1958

>Up Broadway                     Moondog [Louis Harden] 1956-57

>Street Scene                                                               =

1955

>Bird's

>1968

>The Bridge                      Lee Ranaldo 1985

>Drums in my typewriter  Woody Leafer 1958

>Bomb                                    Gregory Corso 1965

>H-Bomb                                  Lord Buckley 1960

>Midnight Sun                    Lionel Hampton 1956-57

>

>Side 2

>

>The Bird        Charlie Parker 1947

>Yip Roc Heresy                  Bulee =93Slim=94 Gaillard 1951

>Like                                    Jack Hammer 1959

>Cockroach                       Jack Kerouac 1962

>The Hipster's Blues - Opus 7=BD Harry =93The Hipster=94 Gibson 1944

>Invitation to the Blues Tom Waits

>Blues Montage                   Langston Hughes with Leonard Feather 1958

>Manhattan Fable                 Babs Gonzalez 1954

>Little Man      Teddy Edwards with Tom Waits

>October in the Railroad Earth   Jack Kerouac and Steve Allen March 1958

>On the Nickel                   Tom Waits

>Thelonius                                       Thelonius Monk 1947

>

>        ****************

>

>+++Bebop, Beat, and Hipsemantic =95     29

>

>Side 1  Antoine Maloney / 28th March, 1997

>

>On The Bean (Walter Thomas)     Coleman Hawkins with Thelonius Monk 1944

>In Walked Bud (Monk)    Thelonius Monk with Art Blakey 1947

>Evidence (Monk)                 Thelonius Monk with Milt Jackson 1948

>=93Monk is dead...Monk lives!=94        Clifton Joseph 1995

>Bloomdido (Parker)                      Thelonius Monk, Charlie Parker, Diz=

zy

>Gillespie, Buddy Rich

>1950

>Celia (Powell)                  Bud Powell, Ray Brown, Max Roach 1949

>Koko (Parker)                   Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Max Roach =

1945

>Slim=92s Jam (B.Gaillard)       Slim Gaillard, Zutty Singleton, Jack McVie,

>Dizzy,

>Parker, Roach

>1945

>=93The Early History of Bop=94  Jack Kerouac with Steve Allen 1958

>Ornithology (Parker - Harris)   Parker, Miles Davis, Dodo Marmarosa 1946

>Slam, Slam Blues (S.Stewart)    Dizzy, Parker, Slam Stewart, Red Norvo 1945

>=93Take note daddy-o!...=94     Langston Hughes with Charles Mingus Quintet=

 1958

>         ...and Jump Monk (Mingus) ...fragment

>

>Side 2

>

>Misterioso (Monk)                       Thelonius Monk with Milt Jackson 19=

48

>Now=92s The Time (Parker)       Charlie Parker with Dizzy Gillespie, Miles =

Davis,

>Max Roach

>1945

>=93Charlie Parker....=94                        Jack Kerouac with Steve=

 Allen 1958

>Blues Walk (C.Brown)    Clifford Brown, with Max Roach, Harold Land,   1955

>Take The A Train (Billy Strayhorn)      George Morrow and Richie Powell 195=

5

>=93The Train=94                 Lord Buckley 1956

>=93Penn Station...to Harlem=94  Langston Hughes with Charles Mingus Quintet=

 1958

>        =93...Dizzy Gillespie...Lennox Avenue=94

>        =93I play it cool, I dig all jive!=94

>The Naz                                 Lord Buckley 1959

>Sightseeing Boogie (B.Gailard)  Slim Gaillard 1945

>Yardbird Suite (Parker) Charlie Parker, with Miles Davis and Dodo

>Marmarosa 1946

>=93...loved that ol=92 Pontiac... =94   Tom Waits 1987

>Duet: Queen Elizabeth whistle and Bamboo Pipe   Moondog [Louis Harden] 1956

>Symphonique #6 (Good for Goody) ...fragment     1968

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

>     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do=

!"

>                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:28:04 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?

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> Maybe he'd work as Lucien Carr somewhere...

always thought of lucien carr of looking somwhat like dicappirio

but a big star like leonardo dicapporia most likely wouldn't want

some small part.

> --

> "I can't imagine how I ever thought my love might make a difference to him."

>                                  --Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_

>

> Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

>

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:29:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?

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>I wouldnt put music over the closing credits...I'd put a live recording

>of Ginsberg reading "Howl"

 

 

cool idea as is the neal on train track vision

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:06:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Q Magazine/Kesey

In-Reply-To:  <199708272343.AA19855@world.std.com>

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Could you post it for us stranded in the new world if you get a chance?

 

On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Carl A Biancucci wrote:

 

> There is a small article on Kesey in the latest ish of

> Q Magazine (UK rock mag)

>

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:13:01 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: On the Rote?

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> Bullock threatening to pull out if Winona Ryder doesn't replace Hanks as

> Kerouac.

 

Actually I very much like Winona as the brooding Jack, But I would

rather have Madonna as Neal, Stallone can stay as Burroughs . .

.Ginsberg--not sure--maybe Bruce Willis.

 

J. Stauffer

 

Plus which the jazz soundtrack will have to go and be replaced by some

very touchy feely girlrock.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:16:01 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR film

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Richard Wallner wrote:

>

> I think the movie should be shot in black and white, except for the

> opening and closing scenes, which would be color shots of Neal Cassady

> walking shirtless on the train tracks in mexico, counting the tracks

> rightbefore his death.

>

> The movie would be narrated of course, with the closing paragraph of the

> book narrarated over the shot of Neal walking away down the railroad tracks.

>

> RJW

 

 

To which you could add shots of the bloated miserable looking old Jack

if you want to really push a moral perspective.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:13:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?

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> Oh, anyone but Keanu "Wooden Boy" Reeves!!! His performance in Johnny

> Mnemonic was like a cardboard cutout..

 

        Agreed all around.  But you have to admit, Johnny Mnemonic was a great

movie in spite of all that bad acting :)

 

        -Bill

 

[  email: deadbeat@buffnet.net  |  web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat  ]

|"Love ceases to be a pleasure, when it ceases to be a secret."

|

|                                                        -- Aphra Behn

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=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:11:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe: Dean

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> i can sleep well tonight.  if there is to be an On The Road movie, then

let

> Chris Isaak play Sal, he looks so much like Kerouac and he has always

> reminded me of a handsome actor out of the 1940s and '50s.  he does act,

he

> isnt just a singer.  if not him, then Depp.

 

        Please say that you are joking...  I have seen Chris Isaak in an acting

role and I would not call him an actor.  He is a songwriter that got an

acting bug up his ass.  Not an actor by any stretch of the imagination.

I'd rather have a great actor play a character than someone that was picked

just because they looked like the person they were portraying.  Thinking of

it...  Isaak doesn't even look a thing like Kerouac.  Kerouac was dark,

Isaak is fair, more like Cassady

 

        As for Stipe playing either role, I really cannot say.  I have never seen

him act (MTV doesn't count).  I would rather see someone with loads of

talent play a role.  Too bad most of the really good actors are too old.

Although there are some promising actors coming around.  And a lot of the

actors that are getting older can still pull it off and play a college age

role for the beginning.  I think that Depp is great.  So is Robert Downey

Jr.  As for Nicolas Cage (Someone mentioned him earlier) I really don't

know.  I know he gets good roles, but he is pretty much the same in those

roles...  He is good, but not great.

 

        Oh well...  That was my monthly posting.

 

        I think I'd be more interrested in seeing what woman were picked for the

roles.

 

        Carolyn Cassady - Eva Habermann  ( I just like looking at her, who cares

if she can act

                  {yes, call me a hipocrite, but I really like this woman})

        Joan Burroughs - Claire Forlani (Good Actress and a beautiful woman.)

        ??? - Samantha Mathis (Who cares who they make her, as long as she don't

sing)

 

        -Bill

 

[  email: deadbeat@buffnet.net  |  web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat  ]

|"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular."

|

|                                                   -- Adlai Stevenson

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=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:31:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      beat generation movie

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taking notes from Ted Morgan's books and Anne Charter's info..someone

like david lynch or copolla would make a great beat generation movie.

here is a sample list of recomendations for actors/actresses.

 

william burroughs= tim roth or steve buscemi

joan vollermer= elizabeth shue

jack kerouac (later years)= Al Pacino

allen ginsberg= jeff goldblume

neal cassady= sean penn

gregory corso= andy garcia

lawrence ferlinghetti= sean connery

 

well just a sample...looking forward to comments and criticisms.

 

 

                                                jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:13:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Coppola

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>I agree Penn is too old.  Is Coppolla still in control

>of this movie.  I don't think this is his kind of material.

>

>Mike Rice

>

  Haven't you heard?  Tentative titles being batted around are _On The Run_

and _On The Rice Paddy_.

  _On the Run_ is a conspiracy flick (big surprise).  The whole movie

(expected to run about four and a half hours) is shot in the backseat of a

car.  Neal and Jack have to skooch over to make room for the crazy cats that

they encounter during their adventure.  Two of these cats turn out to be the

real killers of J.F.K.  The movie ends with a shot of the driver.  He's

wearing a C.I.A. cap.  Tight shot of his hand pressing the stop button on

his hand held tape recorder.   _On The Rice Paddy_ would probably only run

three hours (this is the route that the director is expected to take).  Neal

and Jack are fleeing the Vietcong after having been sent in on a suicide

mission by (who else?) the C.I.A. when they get stuck in a rice paddy.  The

last two hours and forty five minutes of the movie would be scenes of Jack

and Neal taking turns trying to get the car out of the muck.

 

                                                 James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 05:47:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Movies from books....

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At 07:56 PM 8/27/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Oh ye of little faith!  ....it could turn out fine!

>

>        What about "Sheltering Sky" or "The English Patient"? ...or the

>movies mentioned by Adrien and others?  ...was "Il Postino" a book first? If

>so, it must have been dyn-o-mite by Matt and Paul's logic.

>

>        Antoine

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

>     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

>                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

>

The movie of the English Patient was an improvement on the book.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:52:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: jack kerouac

 

this didn't seem to make it to Beat-L the first time I tryed to send it.

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    jack kerouac

Date:    97-08-27 21:35:26 EDT

From:    Jjdorfner

To:      BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu

 

 

 

   Please allow me to introduce myself...my name is John J Dorfner.  I first

discovered Jack Kerouac's writing in 1973, while living in Oregon, working

for a book distributor.  This was after spending over a year hitch-hiking

around the country after being discharged from the Navy.  It was then that I

was turned on to Ann Charter's book, Kerouac.

   I made the first of many pilgrimages to Lowell in 1976, upon returning to

my hometown in upstate New York.  I wanted to see and experience the places

Kerouac wrote about in his books.  I knew this was something that had to be

done.  No question.  I had to know if the reality of Lowell would move me as

much as Kerouac's writing did.

   I spent the years from 1976-1983 periodically traveling to Lowell, working

on notes for a book and starting a family.  After we moved to Raleigh, North

Carolina in June of 1983 and settled into our new home, I drove out to Rocky

Mount.  Luckily it was only 50 miles to the east.

   In Rocky Mount I stood in the front yard of the house where Neal found

Jack that Christmas of 1948.  Jack called the town "Testament, Virginia," in O

n the Road.  I suddenly realized that the Kerouac/Cassady Road Odyssey began

right where I was standing.  That is a feeling words can't describe.  All I

can say is "what a rush!"

   The research I was able to compile in my visits there became very

important to me, as well as to many others.  The local country folks who knew

Kerouac and his family, who I was able to interview, have become my friends.

 These friendships, along with the foreword the late Allen Ginsberg composed

for my Lowell book, are things I will always cherish.

   Talking about the book, On the Road, is great, discussing it with friends

even better.  But there is nothing that beats the experience of going out on

the road, to the places where Kerouac lived, wrote and loved.

   Gathering the thoughts and photographs that came about from my

pilgrimages, I wrote a couple of books about Kerouac's life and times in

Lowell and Rocky Mount, which are available in bookstores.  If you'd like to

know more about these titles, I have blurbs listed at Bookzen.  Go to:

http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604643b.html or

http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604678b.html

 

or check out my homepage at

http://members.aol.com/AngelMindz/index.html

 

   I'll be in Lowell for the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Festival, the first

week of October.  I'll be signing my books at the Small Press Book Fair at

Memorial Hall, Pollard Library on Saturday, October 4th from 10 a.m. to 4

p.m.  I'd love to meet any and all Beat-L people who are going to be there.

 Please come by and say hello.  There will be quite a few great Kerouac

publications to check out.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:15:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Fwd: jack kerouac

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:52 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:

>this didn't seem to make it to Beat-L the first time I tryed to send it.

>---------------------

>Forwarded message:

>Subj:    jack kerouac

>Date:    97-08-27 21:35:26 EDT

>From:    Jjdorfner

>To:      BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu

>

>

>

>   Please allow me to introduce myself...my name is John J Dorfner.  I first

>discovered Jack Kerouac's writing in 1973, while living in Oregon, working

>for a book distributor.  This was after spending over a year hitch-hiking

>around the country after being discharged from the Navy.  It was then that I

>was turned on to Ann Charter's book, Kerouac.

>   I made the first of many pilgrimages to Lowell in 1976, upon returning to

>my hometown in upstate New York.  I wanted to see and experience the places

>Kerouac wrote about in his books.  I knew this was something that had to be

>done.  No question.  I had to know if the reality of Lowell would move me as

>much as Kerouac's writing did.

>   I spent the years from 1976-1983 periodically traveling to Lowell, working

>on notes for a book and starting a family.  After we moved to Raleigh, North

>Carolina in June of 1983 and settled into our new home, I drove out to Rocky

>Mount.  Luckily it was only 50 miles to the east.

>   In Rocky Mount I stood in the front yard of the house where Neal found

>Jack that Christmas of 1948.  Jack called the town "Testament, Virginia," in O

>n the Road.  I suddenly realized that the Kerouac/Cassady Road Odyssey began

>right where I was standing.  That is a feeling words can't describe.  All I

>can say is "what a rush!"

>   The research I was able to compile in my visits there became very

>important to me, as well as to many others.  The local country folks who knew

>Kerouac and his family, who I was able to interview, have become my friends.

> These friendships, along with the foreword the late Allen Ginsberg composed

>for my Lowell book, are things I will always cherish.

>   Talking about the book, On the Road, is great, discussing it with friends

>even better.  But there is nothing that beats the experience of going out on

>the road, to the places where Kerouac lived, wrote and loved.

>   Gathering the thoughts and photographs that came about from my

>pilgrimages, I wrote a couple of books about Kerouac's life and times in

>Lowell and Rocky Mount, which are available in bookstores.  If you'd like to

>know more about these titles, I have blurbs listed at Bookzen.  Go to:

>http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604643b.html or

>http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604678b.html

>

>or check out my homepage at

>http://members.aol.com/AngelMindz/index.html

>

>   I'll be in Lowell for the Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Festival, the first

>week of October.  I'll be signing my books at the Small Press Book Fair at

>Memorial Hall, Pollard Library on Saturday, October 4th from 10 a.m. to 4

>p.m.  I'd love to meet any and all Beat-L people who are going to be there.

> Please come by and say hello.  There will be quite a few great Kerouac

>publications to check out.

>

>

Yes it did make it.  I'm looking at this whale for the second time.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:29:12 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      THE KINGFISHERS a Charles Olson's poem (Re: Beats.)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.3.95.970827181212.8487J-100000@devel.nacs.net>

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        THE KINGFISHERS         by Charles Olson

 

1

 

What does not change / is the will to change

 

He woke, fully clothed, in his bed. He

remembered only one thing, the birds, how

when he came in, he had gone around the rooms

and got them back in their cage, the green one first,

she with the bad leg, and then the blue,

the one they had hoped was a male

 

Otherwise? Yes, Fernand, who had talked lispingly of Albert &

                                                                Angkor Vat.

He had left the party without a word. How he got up, got into his

                                                                coat,

I do not know. When I saw him, he was at the door, but it did not

                                                                matter,

he was already sliding along the wall of the night, losing himself

in some crack of the ruins. That it should have been he who said

                                                                "The Kingfishers!

who cares

for their feathers

now?"

 

His last words had been, "The pool is slime." Suddenly everyone,

ceasing their talk, sat in a row around him, watched

they did not so much hear, or pay attention, they

wondered, looked at each other, smirked, but listened,

he repeated and repeated, could not go beyond his thought

"The pool       the kingfishers' feathers were wealth   why

did the export stop?"

It was then he left

 

2

 

I thought of the E on the stone, and of what Mao said

la lumiere"

        but the kingfisher

de l'aurore"

        but the kingfisher flew west

est devant nous!

        he got the color of his breast

        from the heat of the setting sun!

 

The features are, the feebleness of the feet (syndactylism of the 3rd

                                                                & 4th digit)

the bill, serrated, sometimes a pronunced beak, the wings

where the color is, short and round, the tail

inconspicuous.

 

But not these things were the factors. Not the birds.

The legends are

legends. Dead, hung up indoors, the kingfisher

will not indicate a favoring wind,

or avert the thunderbolt. Nor, by its nesting,

still the waters, with the new year., for seven days.

It is true, it does nest with the opening year, but not on the waters.

It nests at the end of a tunnel bored by itself in a bank. There,

six or eight white and translucent eggs are laid, on fishbones

not on bare clay, on bones thrown up in pellets by the birds.

 

                                On these rejectamenta

(as they accumulate they form a cup-shaped structure) the young

                                                                        are born.

And, as they are fed and grow, this nest of excrement and decayed

                                                                        fish becomes

                                        a dripping, fetid mass

Mao concluded:

                        nous devons

                                nous lever

                                        et agir!

 

3

 

When the attentions change / the jungle

leaps in

        even the stones are split

                                        they rive

 

Or,

enter

that other conqueror we more naturally recognize

he so resembles ourselves

But the E

cut so rudely on that oldest stone

sounded otherwise,

was differently heard

 

as, in another time, were treasures used:

 

(and, later, much later, a fine ear thought

a scarlet coat)

 

        "of green feathers      feet, beaks and eyes

        of gold

 

        "animal likewise,

        resembling snails

 

        "a large wheel, gold, with figures of unknown four-foots,

        and worked with tufts of leaves, weight

        3800 ounces

 

        "last, two birds, of thread and featherwork, the quills

        gold, the feet

        gold, the two birds perched on two reeds

        gold, the reeds arising from two embroidered mounds,

        one yellow, the other

        white.

                "And from each reed hung

                seven feathered tassels.

 

In this instance, the priests

(in dark cotton robes, and dirty,

their dishvelled hair matted with blood, and flowing wildly

over their shoulders)

rush in among the people, calling on them

to protect their gods

 

And all now is war

where so lately there was peace.

and the sweet brotherhood, the use

of tilled fields.

 

 

Not one death but many,

not accumulation but change, the feed-back proves, the feed-back is

the law

        Into the same river no man steps twice

        When fire dies air dies

        No one remains, nor is, one

 

Around an appearance, one common model, we grow up

many. Else how is it,

if we remain the same,

we take pleasure now

in what we did not take pleasure before? love

contrary objects? admire and/for find fault? use

other words, feel another passions, have

nor figure, appearance, disposition, tissue

the same?

        To be in different states without a change

        is not a possibility

We can be precise. The factors are

in the animal and/or the machine the factors are

communication and/or control, both involve

the message. And what is the message? The message is

a discrete or continuous sequence of measurable events distributed

                                                                in time

 

is the birth of air, is

the birth of water, is

a state between

the origin and

the end, between

birth and the beginning of

another fetid nest

 

is change, presents

no more than itself

 

And the too strong grasping of it,

when it is pressed together and condensed,

loses it

 

This very thing you are

 

 

                                II

 

        They buried their dead in a sitting posture

        serpent cane    razor   ray of the sun

 

        And she sprinkled water on the head of the child, crying

        "Cioa-coatl! Cioa-coatl!"

        with her face to the west

 

        Where the bones are found, in each personal heap

        with what each enjoyed, there is always

        the Mongolian louse

The light is in the east. Yes. And we must rise, act. Yet

in the west, despite the apparent darkness (the whiteness

which covers all), if you look, if you can bear, if you can, long enough

 

        as long as it was necessary for him, my guide

        to look into the yellow of the longest-lasting rose

 

so you must, and, in that whiteness, into that face, with what candor,

                                                                                look

 

and, considering the dryness of the place

        the long absence of an adequate race

 

        (of the two who first came, each a conquistador, one healed,

                                                                        the other

        tore the eastern idols down, toppled

        the temple walls, which, says the excuser

        were black from human gore)

 

hear

hear, where the dry blood talks

        where the old appetite walks

 

                                                la piu' saporita et migliore

                                                che si possa truovar al mondo

 

where it hides, look

in the eye how it runs

in the flesh / chalk

 

                                but under these petals

                                in the emptiness

                                regard the light, contemplate

                                the flower

 

whence it arose

 

        with what violence benevolence is bought

        what cost in gesture justice brings

        what wrongs domestic rights involve

        what stalks

        this silence

 

        what pudor pejorocracy affronts

        how awe, night-rest and neighborhood can rot

        what breeds where dirtiness is law

        what crawls

        below

 

                                III

 

I am no Greek, hath not th'advantage.

And of course, no Roman:

he can take no risk that matters,

the risk of beauty least of all.

 

But I have my kin, if for no other reason than

(as he said, next of kin) I commit myself, and,

given my freedom, I'd be a cad

if I didn't. Which is most true.

 

It works out this way, despite the disadvantage.

i offer, in explanation, a quote:

si j'ai du gout, ce n'est gueres

que pour la terre et les pierres

Despite the discrepancy (an ocean       courage age)

this is also true: if I have any taste

it is only because I have interested myself

in what was slain in the sun

 

        I pose you your question:

shall you uncover honey / where maggots are?

 

        I hunt among stones

 

 

 

=========================================

Michael Stutz wrote:

>On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

>> Charles Olson [Black Mountain School]

>

>I confess, I never understood his poetry. I don't know how to read it.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:32:40 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: a Jack Kerouac's poem dated 1970.

In-Reply-To:  <3404DC4A.19C0@sunflower.com>

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Patricia,

 

i think the poem is the great poet Jack Kerouac's last word/message,

 

un grande ciao da

Rinaldo.

*

"In sooth I know not why I am so sad."

--- The Merchant Of Venice, William Shakespeare.

*

 

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>>

>>         To Edward Dahlberg      by Jack Kerouac

>>

>>         Don't use the telephone.

>>         People are never ready to answer it.

>>         Use poetry.

>>

>>         1970

>>

>> from    "Scattered poems",

>>         1970, 1971 (c) The Estate of Jack Kerouac.

>Rinaldo,

>thank you. i appreciate you sharing the source. ciao

>p

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:18:11 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Il Postino (Re: Movies from books....)

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997082719564436@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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Antoine,

 

the author Antonio Skarmeta wrote the book "Ardente paciencia"

in 1985, from the good book derives the good film

"Il postino" directed by Michael Radford in 1994,

 

        Massimo Troisi (1953-1994) in his last film presence,

        everyone mourned his death.

 

cari saluti da

Rinaldo.

 

 

Antoine Maloney wrote:

>Oh ye of little faith!  ....it could turn out fine!

>

>        What about "Sheltering Sky" or "The English Patient"? ...or the

>movies mentioned by Adrien and others?  ...was "Il Postino" a book first? If

>so, it must have been dyn-o-mite by Matt and Paul's logic.

>

>        Antoine

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

>     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

>                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:55:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: [2] OTR movie: music?

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         Sounds good, but who to direct?

Oliver Stone used similar effects in

Natural Born Killers. Tarantino might

put an interesting spin on it, since he

has a healthy respect for anything retro.

Spielberg if you want to see Jack and Neal's car levitate off the

road/cut to a

shot of it silhouetted against the moon.

Kubrick, but how long would that take?

 

                                   _C'mon Friday_,

 

                                         Chimera

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:23:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Some of Dharma and Life

In-Reply-To:  <199708272353.QAA10617@hsc.usc.edu>

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>

> Has anyone actually seen it in a bookstore (I know some have received

> advance copies).

>

 

In fact I just got it last night at Barnes & Noble (68th St and Broadway

location)...its a beautiful book, that at first glance seems to provide a

profound, complex glimpse inside the mind and soul of Jack Kerouac.  Any

serious student of Kerouac and Beats must have this book.  I love the

cover artwork too...and the sentimental dedication to Ginsberg, for whom

the book was actually written as correspondence.

 

B&N also had the 40th anniversary OTR but that was a disappointment.

They should have reproduced the original cover and put in some annotation

and a scholarly forward or two, plus pictures.  Instead a cheap new cover

of a 40'sish car riding down a street?  Disappointing!

 

(query:  The jacket sleeve has a pic of Kerouac holding a first edition

OTR...what is in the small pic on the cover?  Is it a pic of Jack and Neal?)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:28:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: OTR film

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <3404ED71.788F@pacbell.net>

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> >

> > The movie would be narrated of course, with the closing paragraph of the

> > book narrarated over the shot of Neal walking away down the railroad tracks.

> >

> > RJW

>

>

> To which you could add shots of the bloated miserable looking old Jack

> if you want to really push a moral perspective.

>

 

You dont understand, the point would be to show that Neal was a man who

died the way he lived, that he found mystery and joy even in the most

mundane things...the beat ethic of seeing what is spiritual in

everything.  A final shot of Neal walking down the tracks, years after

OTR, older, grayer but still beat...it would fit.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:57:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Ginsberg's Children (was:  Beats)

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Too bad Ginsberg didn't have any kids.

 

     He did, tens of hundreds of thousands.  They tramped the ground in

     Goa, Max Yasgur's Farm, the Haight, the Village, communes from Maine

     to California to Tierra Del Fuego to Point Barrow and well beyond.

     Allen's kids roamed the streets of the Yucatan after him, babbling,

     the children of Quechan.  Allen's kids cried when the Tet "truce" was

     broken..both here and there.  Allen's kids live in Peoria and

     Dharmasala, Fort Lauderdale and Vladivostok, from the Korean Peninsula

     to your back yard.

 

     I am one of Allen's kids, you might be too.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:05:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Salvaging a poorly recorded interview

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With the frequent mention of Bob Dylan onthe list I thought there might be

interest in the following item and the technology that saved the day for a

free-lance writer.

 

 

>I received a frantic call this morning from a friend in Toronto who is a

>freelance music journalist. He had been up most of the night trying to

>salvage one of the most important stories in his career. It seems that

>after requesting an interview several weeks ago with Bob Dylan (who makes

>it a habit of NOT granting interviews), he received an unexpected call

>from Bob, himself on Thursday evening. Being somewhat unprepared, he

>quickly turned on his microcassette and held it up to the receiver to

>begin recording his surprise half-hour telephone interview.

>

>Unfortunately, upon listening back to his tape, he found that he was only

>able to hear about 20 per cent of the conversation. His dilemma was how

>to extract a usable interview from the excessive background noise

>introduced by the microcassette and a noisy long distance phone line.

>

>Enter Macintosh. I loaded his tape into Macromedia Deck 2.6 and proceeded

>to reconstruct his interview line by line. The majority of Dylan's dialog

>was almost entirely buried in background noise but with careful use of

>normalizing and equalization I was able to deliver a cassette that was

>about 95 percent legible (not an easy feat with Bob's dialog). The story

>will now go to print later this week thanks to Macintosh.

>

>Don Nicklin

>RadioActive Media

><http://www.radioactive-media.com>

>

j grant

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

                   at

                     BookZen

                   http://www.bookzen.com

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:37:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Some of Dharma and Life

 

In a message dated 97-08-28 00:57:19 EDT, you write:

 

<< Has anyone actually seen it in a bookstore (I know some have received

 advance copies).

  >>

 

Some of the Dharma is out...

$32.95 list price

$29.95 here

at Water Row Books

 

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:46:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Some of Dharma and Life

In-Reply-To:  <199708272353.QAA10617@hsc.usc.edu>

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On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> The commentary is by Ken Kesey quoting him about how Kerouac never put

> anyone down in all of his writing.

 

Maybe this part of why he couldn't get along with the hippies in the 60s.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:16:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ginsberg's Children (was:  Beats)

In-Reply-To:  <4058A370.@usoc.org> from "MATT HANNAN" at Aug 28, 97 07:57:44 am

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>

> Too bad Ginsberg didn't have any kids.

>

>      He did, tens of hundreds of thousands.  They tramped the ground in

>      Goa, Max Yasgur's Farm, the Haight, the Village, communes from Maine

>      to California to Tierra Del Fuego to Point Barrow and well beyond.

>      Allen's kids roamed the streets of the Yucatan after him, babbling,

>      the children of Quechan.  Allen's kids cried when the Tet "truce" was

>      broken..both here and there.  Allen's kids live in Peoria and

>      Dharmasala, Fort Lauderdale and Vladivostok, from the Korean Peninsula

>      to your back yard.

>

>      I am one of Allen's kids, you might be too.

>

>      love and lilies,

>

>      matt h.

 

I think I missed the original thread that inspired this posting.  You

might want to check out Norman Podhoretz's "My War With Allen Ginsberg,"

in the August 1997 *Commentary*.  Despite Podhoretz's occasional turgid

whining--his lament that the children of the postwar boom "refus[ed] to

take their appointed places in the world" (and his sneaky attack on

former Watergate special prosecutor Archibald Cox) [p. 38]--despite

Podhoretz's flaws, the article is an honest portrayal of his side of his

feud with Ginsberg.

 

Why would I bring up the article in connection with Matt's posting?

 

Much of the final half of Podhoretz's article is framed by an idea that

he only explicitly states in the final paragraph (p. 40).  In this final

paragraph, he declares that Ginsberg ultimately was "magnanimous in

victory" over Podhoretz.  But on the subject of Ginsberg's magnanimity, he

adds:  "I still cannot bring myself to forgive *him*, not even now that he

is dead."

 

Victory?  In what context?  Forgive Ginsberg . . . for what?

 

The major narrative thread in Podhoretz's essay centers on the famous

1958 meeting of Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Podhoretz in Ginsberg's

apartment.  As the evening fitfully ended, and after Ginsberg failed to

convince Podhoretz to give up his war against the growing counter-culture,

Ginsberg yelled, "We'll get you through your children!"

 

Podhoretz's lament in this essay is that he lost the culture war--that

Ginsberg "got" Podhoretz "through [his] children."

 

In an eerie, medicalized metaphor (eerie in light of Podhoretz's

emphasis on HIV when he suggests that Ginsberg's "beatification of

homosexuality" and "glorification of insanity" are reinforcing

pathologies), Podoretz suggests that Ginsberg's side won the culture

war by spreading a "spiritual plague" that indeed has grown "through

[the] children."

 

Plague?  Hardly, I'd say, when many conversations on BEAT-L assume a healthy

skepticism toward the established cultural norms that Podhoretz defends

as "good health."  And did Ginsberg really "win" the war Podhoretz

describes?  I'm not going to touch this one--in this era when, among

other things, Newt Gingrich extols advertisers to monitor and censor the

content of newspaper and magazine articles.  But seeing Podhoretz's

baleful white flag infused me with the same optimism I get from, say,

Howard Zinn.

 

The Podhoretz article is worth reading.  Maybe it's on the Web.  Thanks

to Tara from my summer poetry class for pointing me toward it.  I wanted

to bring it into BEAT-L earlier, but then became too busy.

 

Tony

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:03:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: [2] OTR movie: music?

In-Reply-To:  <199708281255.FAA03366@mailtod-101.bryant.webtv.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Eric Blanco wrote:

 

>          Sounds good, but who to direct?

 

I would actually like to see it done by Richard Linklatter, the guy who did

_Slacker_.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:20:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Movies from books....

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997082719564436@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:

 

> Oh ye of little faith!  ....it could turn out fine!

>

>         What about "Sheltering Sky" or "The English Patient"? ...or the

> movies mentioned by Adrien and others?  ...was "Il Postino" a book first? If

> so, it must have been dyn-o-mite by Matt and Paul's logic.

>

>         Antoine

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

>

>      "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

>                         -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

>

yes. . .but the alternative? a piece of art turned to trash?

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:26:08 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      New! HERBERT HUNCKE READER

 

Ready to ship next week...

The new Herbert Huncke Reader. Edited by Ben Schafer. William Morrow.

Hardcover.

 

This great treasury contains the highly sought-after scarce "Huncke's

Journal" (1966), The autobiographical "The Evening Sun Turned Crimson,"

Guilty of Everything excerpt, 50-60 pages of previously uncollected work by

Huncke and more, as well as 16 page photo insert. Also a foreword by William

S. Burroughs.

 

List price: $24.00

Water Row price: $19.00

Master Card & Visa accepted.

Shipping extra. Satisfaction guaranteed.

 

Thanks -

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

PO Box 438

Sudbury MA 01776

tel 508-485-8515

fax 508-229-0885

email waterrow@aol.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:13:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Source of Quote

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Someone set me straight; the following quote was either Ginsberg to

     Kerouac or Kerouac to Ginsberg (I'm thinking the latter but I can't

     find my reference, someday when my daughter is older I'm going to

     write the monster Beat database):

 

     "I'm not anti anything, I don't have time for your negativity".

 

     Help me out gang,

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:43:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Schlimm <rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe: Dean

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:11 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> i can sleep well tonight.  if there is to be an On The Road movie, then

>let

>> Chris Isaak play Sal, he looks so much like Kerouac and he has always

>> reminded me of a handsome actor out of the 1940s and '50s.  he does act,

>he

>> isnt just a singer.  if not him, then Depp.

>

>        Please say that you are joking...  I have seen Chris Isaak in an acting

>role and I would not call him an actor.  He is a songwriter that got an

>acting bug up his ass.  Not an actor by any stretch of the imagination.

>I'd rather have a great actor play a character than someone that was picked

>just because they looked like the person they were portraying.  Thinking of

>it...  Isaak doesn't even look a thing like Kerouac.  Kerouac was dark,

>Isaak is fair, more like Cassady

>

>        As for Stipe playing either role, I really cannot say.  I have

never seen

>him act (MTV doesn't count).  I would rather see someone with loads of

>talent play a role.  Too bad most of the really good actors are too old.

>Although there are some promising actors coming around.  And a lot of the

>actors that are getting older can still pull it off and play a college age

>role for the beginning.  I think that Depp is great.  So is Robert Downey

>Jr.  As for Nicolas Cage (Someone mentioned him earlier) I really don't

>know.  I know he gets good roles, but he is pretty much the same in those

>roles...  He is good, but not great.

>

o.k. o.k. you're probably right.  i only saw Isaak act for 2 minutes as a

walk on part in some stupid sitcom i dont even watch.  i hope you know you

just bursted my bubble...cuz i still think he looks just like Kerouac-he can

always dye his hair you know.   i have never seen Stipe act either but i

know he has acted in a movie, not just MTV.  all i know is that i'd rather

have Isaak than Nicholas Cage, or Sean Penn. Depp is the best suggestion ive

heard so far.   how about Vincent Gallo for Dean-has anyone seen him with

short hair? also Paul Hipp-watch The Funeral!  maybe there just shouldnt be

an OTR movie.  maybe we could fit Emily Watson in as one of the woman

roles-she's a great actress.

 

 

>        Oh well...  That was my monthly posting.

>

>        I think I'd be more interrested in seeing what woman were picked

for the

>roles.

>

>        Carolyn Cassady - Eva Habermann  ( I just like looking at her, who

cares

>if she can act

>                  {yes, call me a hipocrite, but I really like this woman})

>        Joan Burroughs - Claire Forlani (Good Actress and a beautiful woman.)

>        ??? - Samantha Mathis (Who cares who they make her, as long as she

don't

>sing)

>

>        -Bill

>

>[  email: deadbeat@buffnet.net  |  web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat  ]

>|"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular."

>|

>|                                                   -- Adlai Stevenson

>[---  ICQ UIN = 188335  --|--  PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:49:40 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>

Subject:      Source of Quote -Reply

Comments: To: MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain

 

I think the quote was from Kerouac to Ed Sanders and delivered on the

talk show "Firing Line" hosted by William F. Buckley.  I think Ginsberg was

in the audience so it may have been directed at him too--maybe only him.

 

carl

 

>>> MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG> 08/28/97 09:13am

>>>

     Someone set me straight; the following quote was either Ginsberg to

     Kerouac or Kerouac to Ginsberg (I'm thinking the latter but I can't

     find my reference, someday when my daughter is older I'm going to

     write the monster Beat database):

 

     "I'm not anti anything, I don't have time for your negativity".

 

     Help me out gang,

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt h.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:38:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      OTR movie: Nicholas Cage

In-Reply-To:  <199708281743.MAA103266@gomer.wiscnet.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Wouldnt surprise me if Cage got the Neal part...after all his real name

is Nicholas Coppola (as in Francis Ford's nephew...a little nepotism

never hurt anyone's career right?)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:59:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Kerouac Quarterly Page has been update!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

We have updated the Kerouac Quarterly web page and all of its links.

About the Berg Collection, there is a message from John Sampas concerning

the manuscripts that will be placed on deposit.

 

Go to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page4.html

 

Thanks for reding!  Paul of TKQ....

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:24:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Who's Who in Beat Lit...

 

Reply to message from gallaher@hsc.usc.edu of Thu, 28 Aug

 

>

>Also the killing of David Kammerer was written up in Vanity of Dulouz.  I

>believe also it was written up in the first beat generation book ever

>written, And the Hippos Were Boiled in their Tanks, by Burroughs and

>Kerouac--a book that has yet to be published if it ever will be.

>

>The subway guy mentioned above was called Bill Canastra who I believe was

>called Finistra in Go.  I think he was climbing out the window and was

>halfway out when the train came to the tunnel.

>

>At the end of On the Road when the woman calls down to Sal from the loft

>above, that was Canastra's loft where Joan Haverty was living after his

>death.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe On the Road was written there.

>

 

#1--Joan Haverty was Bill Canastra's girlfriend at the time of his death,

was she not?

 

#2--Lucien really didn't like allusions being made to him in beat lit,

so I've heard.  Although they couldn't be helped.

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

"I can't imagine how I ever thought my love might make a difference to him."

                                 --Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:45:52 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Thursday Morning.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        look at the pony!

        teardrops

        misting my eyes

        look    at      the     pony!

 

        in the morning

        i will bring you

        to the circus

 

        look            at              the             pony!

 

        but early in the dawn the circus has gone

                        white grass on the meadows

                        & tiny fog

 

you haven't teardrops

        happy childhood next year the circus will be here

 

        our limits

                are only

                        technical matter

                BUT

        into

        this supermarket aisle

        i feel

        suddenly old.

 

 

Rinaldo.

28th aug 1997.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:33:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: jack kerouac

 

thanks for info.  aren't you the same guy who thinks On the Road is the only

Kerouac books?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:45:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>

Subject:      sorry

 

i'm very sorry about posting my message again.  this posting stuff is all new

to me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:05:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Thursday Morning.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970828224552.00686820@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

 look at the pony!

rinaldo: so happy to get this today. i have been thinking of ginsberg's

poem 'supermarket in california' i believe, and felt his presence when i

had to go to store with waning store of monies: i wanted to shout: poems

for pears, poems for peaches, poems for the life of us all. but instead i

bought what i could afford and left.

i think i've shoeveled thru the shit and no pony there.

but then, here you come, with your wonder and all.

thanks

marie

(mc to most)

 

>        teardrops

>        misting my eyes

>        look    at      the     pony!

>

>        in the morning

>        i will bring you

>        to the circus

>

>        look            at              the             pony!

>

>        but early in the dawn the circus has gone

>                        white grass on the meadows

>                        & tiny fog

>

>you haven't teardrops

>        happy childhood next year the circus will be here

>

>        our limits

>                are only

>                        technical matter

>                BUT

>        into

>        this supermarket aisle

>        i feel

>        suddenly old.

>

>

>Rinaldo.

>28th aug 1997.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:08:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe: Dean

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:43 PM 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote:

>At 12:11 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>> i can sleep well tonight.  if there is to be an On The Road movie, then

>>let

>>> Chris Isaak play Sal, he looks so much like Kerouac and he has always

>>> reminded me of a handsome actor out of the 1940s and '50s.  he does act,

>>he

>>> isnt just a singer.  if not him, then Depp.

>>

>>        Please say that you are joking...  I have seen Chris Isaak in an

acting

>>role and I would not call him an actor.  He is a songwriter that got an

>>acting bug up his ass.  Not an actor by any stretch of the imagination.

>>I'd rather have a great actor play a character than someone that was picked

>>just because they looked like the person they were portraying.  Thinking of

>>it...  Isaak doesn't even look a thing like Kerouac.  Kerouac was dark,

>>Isaak is fair, more like Cassady

>>

>>        As for Stipe playing either role, I really cannot say.  I have

>never seen

>>him act (MTV doesn't count).  I would rather see someone with loads of

>>talent play a role.  Too bad most of the really good actors are too old.

>>Although there are some promising actors coming around.  And a lot of the

>>actors that are getting older can still pull it off and play a college age

>>role for the beginning.  I think that Depp is great.  So is Robert Downey

>>Jr.  As for Nicolas Cage (Someone mentioned him earlier) I really don't

>>know.  I know he gets good roles, but he is pretty much the same in those

>>roles...  He is good, but not great.

>>

>o.k. o.k. you're probably right.  i only saw Isaak act for 2 minutes as a

>walk on part in some stupid sitcom i dont even watch.  i hope you know you

>just bursted my bubble...cuz i still think he looks just like Kerouac-he can

>always dye his hair you know.   i have never seen Stipe act either but i

>know he has acted in a movie, not just MTV.  all i know is that i'd rather

>have Isaak than Nicholas Cage, or Sean Penn. Depp is the best suggestion ive

>heard so far.   how about Vincent Gallo for Dean-has anyone seen him with

>short hair? also Paul Hipp-watch The Funeral!  maybe there just shouldnt be

>an OTR movie.  maybe we could fit Emily Watson in as one of the woman

>roles-she's a great actress.

>

>

>>        Oh well...  That was my monthly posting.

>>

>>        I think I'd be more interrested in seeing what woman were picked

>for the

>>roles.

>>

>>        Carolyn Cassady - Eva Habermann  ( I just like looking at her, who

>cares

>>if she can act

>>                  {yes, call me a hipocrite, but I really like this woman})

>>        Joan Burroughs - Claire Forlani (Good Actress and a beautiful woman.)

>>        ??? - Samantha Mathis (Who cares who they make her, as long as she

>don't

>>sing)

>>

>>        -Bill

>>

>>[  email: deadbeat@buffnet.net  |  web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat  ]

>>|"A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular."

>>|

>>|                                                   -- Adlai Stevenson

>>[---  ICQ UIN = 188335  --|--  PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]

>>

>>

>>

>

>

Ever since he stopped playing characters and started playing leads

in rotten films, after scoring in Leaving Las Vegas, I've lost my

fondness totally for Nicholas Cage.  I don't see him as a lead, and

don't like Hollywood jamming him down my throat just because he got

the Oscar.  He's an edgy character actor who has been ruined, and

I don't want anything to do with him anymore.  I think Penn is too

strong to play either role.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:27:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: sorry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:45 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:

>i'm very sorry about posting my message again.  this posting stuff is all new

>to me.

>

>

Don't be sorry.  Offending people is part of the

fun of being on the net.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:17:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      New Stuff! Kerouac Cover of the month

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This month starts the new addition to the Kerouac Quarterly web page.

Each month we will feature a different scan of a paperback. we urge your

submissions!Our frined Antoine Maloney submitted the first entry. Go check

it out and thanks Antoine!  regards to all! Paul of TKQ....

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page5.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:20:29 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: sorry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> At 05:45 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:

> >i'm very sorry about posting my message again.  this posting stuff is all new

> >to me.

> >

> >

> Don't be sorry.  Offending people is part of the

> fun of being on the net.

hey! i think that's not very nice! you just got me so upset i'm going

to signoff!!....

just joking (;

> Mike Rice

>

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:31:49 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: sorry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

John J Dorfner wrote:

> i'm very sorry about posting my message again.  this posting stuff is all new

> to me.

 

John,

I appreciate your position, i learned to set my subscription to include

my posts because it helps me know if i or some server garbled the

message.  I have usually regretted offending people unless i have some

point to make but this list is a rough and tumble one.  I got blasted

because I twitted someone for asking for help on some homework.  I don't

actually want to be a valuable resource that some professor can give his

earnest student.

well, your home page looked to much like an advertisement,  tell me,

what was the most interesting thing about meeting Jacks old friends.

what surprised you.. when i went to lowell i didn't enter a bar that

didn't have a pic of him there swigging.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:39:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Schlimm <rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET>

Subject:      Kicks Joy Darkness

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

where can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides

ordering it off the internet)?  is it available in some music stores?  does

anyone have it?  is it any good?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:19:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Sum of the Dharma  Bookstore story

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

So I was talking to you guys about finding Some of the Dharma.  I figured

Barnes and

Noble should have it but i hadn't seen it anywhere in the store (or in

Supercrown for

that matter).  So I called B&N.

 

Do you have a book called Some of the Dharma?

 

Um let's see...I don't see it...who's the author?

 

Jack Kerouac.  It's new just out.

 

Oh yes, OK, but it's got a different name.

(So I'm thinking somehow she's mixing it up with the 40th OTR edition)

 

She says: It's called Some of the Dharma.

 

Isn't that what I said?

 

I thought you said sum of the dharma.  Do you want me to hold it for you?

 

(I say where is it, she says in the literature section.  I say no you don't

need to

hold a copy I can find it.  So I go there later.  I read an article in New

Republic

about the Korean defector [not the two that defected the other day buty the

one from

last spring] and how he's being ignored in what he's saying by the press and

the Clinton administration.  They're ignoring him because his info doesn't

jibe with what the Clinton administration is saying about their progress

with N. Korea and their overall

plans.

 

So I finish that and there's about 15 minutes til the store closes.  I go to

the

Kerouac section and no book.  They do have OTR 40th anniversary issue

though.  So I

look everywhere it might be.  Biography, eastern thought, new fiction, new

non-fiction on the displays--no where.  So finally I decide to ask, but I

don't see any workers

buzzing about.  "Buy your purchases" says the PA. I see a worker.  Ask her

if they have Some of the Dharma.)

 

Let me check.  She goe to the computer.  Types in Son of the Dharma (spells

dharma

right).

 

No, Some of the Dharma.

 

Oh, sorry, she types in Sum of the Dharma.

 

No no I say, some s-o-m-e some

 

Oh.  Types in Some of the Dharma.  Yeah we have seven copies.  I'll find it.

 

(So she goes and looks in the Kerouac section.  Not there of course.  And

then to the

new fiction, new non-fiction, everywhere i've been looking.  Can't find it.

I follow

her around.  Finally she asks another worker at the front desk.  This other

gal has

heard of it.  She knows it's a big book.  She looks--where else, everywhere

we've

looked.  Looks on the displays ect...finally she says watch my register [to

the other

worker, not me] and I'll look in the back)

 

She does finally come back with two copies and hands them to me.

 

I think i just need one, I say.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:03:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Sum of the Dharma  Bookstore story

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

My B&N and my library are like this, no one knows anything

about books.

 

Mike Rice

 

At 12:19 AM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote:

>So I was talking to you guys about finding Some of the Dharma.  I figured

>Barnes and

>Noble should have it but i hadn't seen it anywhere in the store (or in

>Supercrown for

>that matter).  So I called B&N.

>

>Do you have a book called Some of the Dharma?

>

>Um let's see...I don't see it...who's the author?

>

>Jack Kerouac.  It's new just out.

>

>Oh yes, OK, but it's got a different name.

>(So I'm thinking somehow she's mixing it up with the 40th OTR edition)

>

>She says: It's called Some of the Dharma.

>

>Isn't that what I said?

>

>I thought you said sum of the dharma.  Do you want me to hold it for you?

>

>(I say where is it, she says in the literature section.  I say no you don't

>need to

>hold a copy I can find it.  So I go there later.  I read an article in New

>Republic

>about the Korean defector [not the two that defected the other day buty the

>one from

>last spring] and how he's being ignored in what he's saying by the press and

>the Clinton administration.  They're ignoring him because his info doesn't

>jibe with what the Clinton administration is saying about their progress

>with N. Korea and their overall

>plans.

>

>So I finish that and there's about 15 minutes til the store closes.  I go to

>the

>Kerouac section and no book.  They do have OTR 40th anniversary issue

>though.  So I

>look everywhere it might be.  Biography, eastern thought, new fiction, new

>non-fiction on the displays--no where.  So finally I decide to ask, but I

>don't see any workers

>buzzing about.  "Buy your purchases" says the PA. I see a worker.  Ask her

>if they have Some of the Dharma.)

>

>Let me check.  She goe to the computer.  Types in Son of the Dharma (spells

>dharma

>right).

>

>No, Some of the Dharma.

>

>Oh, sorry, she types in Sum of the Dharma.

>

>No no I say, some s-o-m-e some

>

>Oh.  Types in Some of the Dharma.  Yeah we have seven copies.  I'll find it.

>

>(So she goes and looks in the Kerouac section.  Not there of course.  And

>then to the

>new fiction, new non-fiction, everywhere i've been looking.  Can't find it.

>I follow

>her around.  Finally she asks another worker at the front desk.  This other

>gal has

>heard of it.  She knows it's a big book.  She looks--where else, everywhere

>we've

>looked.  Looks on the displays ect...finally she says watch my register [to

>the other

>worker, not me] and I'll look in the back)

>

>She does finally come back with two copies and hands them to me.

>

>I think i just need one, I say.

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:56:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Herbert Huncke Reader

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Will this book be generally available in bookstores, or only by mail from

Water & Row?  Sounds like a treat!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:32:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kicks Joy Darkness

In-Reply-To:  <199708290339.WAA62246@gomer.wiscnet.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>where can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides

>ordering it off the internet)?  is it available in some music stores?  does

>anyone have it?  is it any good?

________________

as far as i know, most music stores carry it.

overall, it's an interesting if uneven performance.

, mike stipe and john cale are wonderful,

and the booklet was designed by a friend at rykodisc

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:58:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Some of the Dharma excerpt

In-Reply-To:  <199708290719.AAA14245@hsc.usc.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

If he can be called meek who has no wishes...

 

Or hiding who needs never be found...

 

Or scared who never attacks...

 

Forgotten, who watches up the night...

 

If he can be called "He" who has no self, writes "one is all" on every

wall...

 

"Literature" is no longer necessary...teaching is left

 

 

 

JK, Some of the Dharma

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:20:04 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Sum of the Dharma  Bookstore story

In-Reply-To:  <199708290719.AAA14245@hsc.usc.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> So I was talking to you guys about finding Some of the Dharma.  I figured

> Barnes and

> Noble should have it but i hadn't seen it anywhere in the store (or in

> Supercrown for

> that matter).  So I called B&N.

>

> Do you have a book called Some of the Dharma?

>

> Um let's see...I don't see it...who's the author?

>

> Jack Kerouac.  It's new just out.

>

> Oh yes, OK, but it's got a different name.

> (So I'm thinking somehow she's mixing it up with the 40th OTR edition)

>

> She says: It's called Some of the Dharma.

>

> Isn't that what I said?

>

> I thought you said sum of the dharma.  Do you want me to hold it for you?

>

> (I say where is it, she says in the literature section.  I say no you don't

> need to

> hold a copy I can find it.  So I go there later.  I read an article in New

> Republic

> about the Korean defector [not the two that defected the other day buty the

> one from

> last spring] and how he's being ignored in what he's saying by the press and

> the Clinton administration.  They're ignoring him because his info doesn't

> jibe with what the Clinton administration is saying about their progress

> with N. Korea and their overall

> plans.

>

> So I finish that and there's about 15 minutes til the store closes.  I go to

> the

> Kerouac section and no book.  They do have OTR 40th anniversary issue

> though.  So I

> look everywhere it might be.  Biography, eastern thought, new fiction, new

> non-fiction on the displays--no where.  So finally I decide to ask, but I

> don't see any workers

> buzzing about.  "Buy your purchases" says the PA. I see a worker.  Ask her

> if they have Some of the Dharma.)

>

> Let me check.  She goe to the computer.  Types in Son of the Dharma (spells

> dharma

> right).

>

> No, Some of the Dharma.

>

> Oh, sorry, she types in Sum of the Dharma.

>

> No no I say, some s-o-m-e some

>

> Oh.  Types in Some of the Dharma.  Yeah we have seven copies.  I'll find it.

>

> (So she goes and looks in the Kerouac section.  Not there of course.  And

> then to the

> new fiction, new non-fiction, everywhere i've been looking.  Can't find it.

> I follow

> her around.  Finally she asks another worker at the front desk.  This other

> gal has

> heard of it.  She knows it's a big book.  She looks--where else, everywhere

> we've

> looked.  Looks on the displays ect...finally she says watch my register [to

> the other

> worker, not me] and I'll look in the back)

>

> She does finally come back with two copies and hands them to me.

>

> I think i just need one, I say.

>

this sounds very much like similar experiences i've had with anything

bookstore/Kerouac related.  also, shouldn't a book as precious as a

new-release of Kerouac be difficult to find?  makes it all the more

special.

jenn thompson

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:51:45 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Kicks Joy Darkness

In-Reply-To:  <199708290339.WAA62246@gomer.wiscnet.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 Richard Schlimm <rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET> wrote:

 

>where can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides

>ordering it off the internet)?  is it available in some music stores?  does

>anyone have it?  is it any good?

 

i got mine at a bookstore in Oregon, but i'm sure a lot of music stores

carry it now. after listening to it many times, i have to say i think it

was worth the money. Ginsberg and another guy (who reads the last chorus)

reading Brooklyn Bridge Blues is awesome. Hunter Thompson, L. Ferlingetti

and Burroughs all sound great, and a lot of the rest of it is good, though

there are some loser tracks on the disc.

 

leo

 

 

"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:39:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe: Dean

 

Y'know, Kevin Spacey'd make an interesting Kerouac... He's a hell of an

actor... Or perhaps, Gary Oldman -- hell, he's already been Beethoven, Sid

Vicious, Joe Orton, a mulato gangsta, etc. etc.... As long as Keanu Reeves is

prohibited from any more beat-inspired productions, I'll be a happy camper...

 

 

Kisses & Starfishes from Seattle,

 

LD

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:50:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "William N. Gay" <wgay@ZOO.UVM.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kicks Joy Darkness

In-Reply-To:  <199708290339.WAA62246@gomer.wiscnet.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I bought it locally (Vermont), and saw it everywhere in stores here to San

Diego this summer. My problem was finding it on cassette, but that's

becoming more the rule, unfortunately. Anyway, I like it, especially the

Morphine cut which kicks it off, Lydia Lunch, WSB, HST and John Cale. The

packaging is pretty nice, too.

 

On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Richard Schlimm wrote:

 

> where can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides

> ordering it off the internet)?  is it available in some music stores?  does

> anyone have it?  is it any good?

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:50:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: list of jazz albums

 

        Music that was an influence on the beats specificly Jack and Neal at

that time would have to include the stuff that Parker and the bop guys were

doing on the east coast and from their letters, when they were on the west

coast, the sounds of Chet Baker.The improv of Parkers playing from night to

night had an influence on the form of Jack's writing especially.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:59:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: list of jazz albums

In-Reply-To:  <970829135003_1582249370@emout05.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, James J Stavola wrote:

 

> The improv of Parkers playing from night to

> night had an influence on the form of Jack's writing especially.

 

How often did Jack see jazz shows, Parker et al, during this period?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:54:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rodney Lee Phillips <philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      Kerouac Quarterly?

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Hello--

 

I'm looking for the name and address (both e-mail and snail-mail) of the folks

who edit the Kerouac Quarterly.

 

Thanks,

 

    Rod Phillips

    philli31@pilot.msu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:42:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Jack's jazz listening...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

In reply to Michael Stutz:

        "How often did Jack see jazz shows, Parker et al, during this period?"

...and Ron Kovach:

        "What's the story on the recording 'Kerouac'?"

 

        You have to recall that during the late forties and right through to

the fifties, live jazz in NYC was everywhere - and top calibre. From the

boigraphies one would say that Jack was seeing lots of jazz out in the clubs

and Parker whenever he could. That's probably true from his time at Horace

Mann in the late thirties right through his "Subterraneans" period.

 

        Off list Ron Kovach and I were talking about the recording "Kerouac"

which featured Charlie Christian and Dizzy Gillespie. It was recorded in

1941 I think, and Thomas Owens (I think I previously referred to him as Owen

Thomas when talking about his book "Bebop"), a musicologist out in

California at El Camino College, described as one of the first examples of

someone (Gillespie) reaching towards what would become bebop.

 

        The story that Gerry Nicosi tells about the name is that a friend of

Kerouac's from Horace Mann, Seymour Wyse, introduced Jack to Jerry Newman,

who had for years been taking his recording equipment into clubs in Harlem

to record. It was Newman who suggested to Gillespie that he name one of his

arrangements "Kerouac". Dizzy didn't know Jack, but liked the name better

than "Ginsberg"!  [Memory Babe by Gerald Nicosi - pages 124-125; Grove Press

1983] Newman's recordings from those and later years are still in hot

circulation.

 

        I would enthusiastically recommend recordings that feature any of

Parker's small group playing from '43 through '48. You get great

combinations of players and all the seminal bebop there was....Gillespie

playing piano accompaniment, Slim Gaillard, Bud Powell, lots of Miles Davis,

Dodo Marmarosa, Wardell Grey (..hey Preston!), Howard McGhee, Max Roach,

Tiny Grimes and Don Byas.

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:27:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac Quarterly?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:54 PM 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello--

>

>I'm looking for the name and address (both e-mail and snail-mail) of the folks

>who edit the Kerouac Quarterly.

>

>Thanks,

>

>    Rod Phillips

>    philli31@pilot.msu.edu

>Go to the web page:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:06:50 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Beats. 30th aug 1997

Comments: cc: dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu, walter.campbell@usa.net,

          brooklyn@netcom.com

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Donald Allen

---

Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

---

Paul Blackburn

---

Robin Blaser

---

Bonnie Bremser

---

Ray Bremser

---

Chandler Brossard

---

Charles Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"

---

William S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,

                                                                Frank Carmody,

                                                                Will Dennison,

                                                                Old Bull Lee"

 

---

William S. Burroughs Jr.

---

John Cage  {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black Mountain School]

---

Caleb Carr

---

Lucien Carr

---

Paul Carroll

---

Louis R Cartwright

---

Carolyn Cassady

---

Neal Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"

---

Tom Clark [Paris Review]

---

Andy Clausen

---

Gregory Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"

---

Robert Creeley [Black Mountain School]

---

Henry Cru "Remi Boncoeur"

---

Diane DiPrima

---

John Doe

---

Kirby Doyle

---

Robert Duncan [Black Mountain School]

---

Bob Dylan

---

William Everson (Brother Antonus)

---

Richard Farina

---

Lawrence Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]

                                                        "Lorenzo Monsanto,

                                                        Larry O'Hara

                                                        Danny Richman"

---

Charles Foster

---

Allen Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand

                                                        Alvah Goldbook, Leon Levinsky

                                                        Carlo Marx"

---

John Giorno

---

Morris Graves

---

Brion Gysin

---

William Inge

---

Wally Hedrick [Gallery Six]

---

John Cellon Holmes

---

Herbert Huncke

---

Ted Joans

---

Joyce Johnson

---

Lenore Kandel

---

Bob Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }

---

Jack Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,

                                                        Leo Percepied, Ray Smith,

                                                        Jack, Peter Martin,

                                                        Sal Paradise"

---

Jan Kerouac

---

Ken Kesey

---

Franz Kline

---

Seymour Krim

---

Tuli Kupferberg

---

Joanne Kyger

---

Philip Lamantia

---

Jay Landesman

---

Fran Landesman

---

James Laughlin

---

Timothy Leary

---

Lawrence Lipton

---

Malcom Lowry

---

Norman Mailer

---

Gerard Malanga

---

Edward Marshall

---

Peter Martin

---

Lewis McAdams

---

Joanna McClure

---

Michael McClure

---

Taylor Mead

---

David Meltzer

---

Jack Micheline

---

Henry Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }

---

John Montgomery

---

Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao

---

Harold Norse

---

Frank O'Hara

---

Charles Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]

---

Peter Orlovsky

---

Kenneth Patchen

---

Thomas Parkinson

---

Nancy Peters

---

Stuart Z. Perkoff

---

Charles Plymell

---

Dan Propper

---

Kenneth Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]

---

Theodore Roethke

---

Hugh Romney

---

Michael Rumaker

---

Ed Sanders

---

Mark Schorer

---

Hubert Jr. Selby

---

Gary Snyder

---

Carl Solomon

---

Jack Spicer

---

Hunter Stockton Thompson

---

Charles Upton

---

Janine Pommy Vega

---

Mark Tobey

---

Alexander Trocchi

---

Anne Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]

---

Lewis Warsh

---

Alan W. Watts

---

Lew Welch

---

Philip Whalen

---

John Wieners

---

William Carlos Williams

---

Ruth Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]

-*-

 

Hello!,

i'm listing the beat generation

(writers & painters & performers)

& i begin with a list, everyone

interested can propose a new name.

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm

thanks,

Rinaldo Rasa.

30th august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.

 

-*-

the list of credits & comments:

Walter Campbell         <walter.campbell@usa.net>

Timothy K. Gallaher     <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Richard M. Kershenbaum  <r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>

OHearn                          <orpheus@in.the.shadows>

David Schwarm           <dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>

Michael Stutz           <stutz@dsl.org>

-*-

addendum:

Return-Path: <dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>

Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:22:59 -0700 (PDT)

From: David Schwarm <dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>

To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>

Subject: Re: Beats.

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for the update.  I have used your list to start my own little

spreadsheet (with dates and famous works), please feel free to use this as

you see fit (it is a WIN3.1 MS Excel file - let me know if you need a

different format).

 

David Schwarm                   Making jazz swing in

41 Southbrook                   Seventeen syllables AIN'T

Irvine, CA  92604               No square poet's job.

-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

 

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--=====================_872885210==_--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:01:30 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Men Of The Mountains.(Beats)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

friends,

 

let me quote Walter Campbell:

"Maybe Snyder gets short-changed because

of his "man of the mountains" persona.

That's one of the many paradoxes of the Beat movement: the

urban, erudite east-coast leg of the Beat movement seems antithetical

to the laid-back, naturalistic bent of the California clan."

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:49:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: list of jazz albums

 

       On 8/29/97 Miichael Stutz asked how Jack might have seen Charlie

Parker's playing and the possible influence it might have had on his writing.

 

       When the beats were hanging around Columbia and Times Square would be

at the same time Parker was at his peak and also playing the jazz clubs on

52nd St. alot.  I've read that there are tapes of Ginsberg and Kerouac

reading with Parker in the background though I've never been able to verify

it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:31:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      happy birthday, bird

 

Before the day is out and all this discussion moves away from Charley Parker,

I just want to say today is Bird's birthday... so get out your old scratched

up vinyl and listen to this genius.

 

For everyone in the Seattle area, this is Bumbershoot weekend... the annual

rain festival (with hilariously faux-pagan roots... a long story). On

Saturday at the Seattle Center there will be many hours devoted to a program

called the Bebop Revival.

 

On that same note, a bit of historical trivia (so trivial you'll probably

wonder why I even mentioned it): Don Lanphere, from Wenatchee, Washington

(where I used to live... insert joke here), was a child prodigy on the sax in

the 30s and 40s. His dad owned Belmont Music Store (named after Belmont

Shores) and was one of the earliest subscribers to Down Beat magazine, which

little Don read from cover-to-cover and ordered 78s out of the listings in

the back.

 

Don ended up in New York, living with Charley's "woman" Chan on 52nd Street

for a while, and got into the same old habits all all the rest of them. He

ran with Bird and Fats and everyone else, shared needles, did time, and was

responsible for recording many of the tapes that came out of those years that

were eventually made into the records of sessions and sold on various labels.

 

I met Don when I was 13 (33 years ago), and he had toned down his heroin use

in favor of alcohol and the drugs of the Sixties. In 1969, he had a religious

conversion (the Jesus Freeks came to town and saved everyone they could get

their hands on) and gave up jazz for a while, afraid it might have been part

of his problems.

 

He finally figured out it wasn't evil or sinful to be a jazz musician, and

went back to his horn. He moved to Seattle a bunch of years ago and has a

Monday morning radio show on KBCU, the college station out of Bellevue, where

he carries on with Bud (god... i forgot bud's last name), proprietor of Bud's

Jazz Records in Pioneer Square (just off Jackson Street, where jazz was born

and lived in Seattle), playing bebop and all that other good stuff. He also

teaches, travels, and still records one album a year.

 

Also, Fats Navarro's daughter, Linda, who inherited her father's penchant for

junk, lives in Seattle and has been profiled here in the media a coupla

times. She still struggles with a heroin habit.

 

So, the local NPR jazz affiliate is playing Bird all day, and tomorrow, bebop

at the Seattle Center... man... what a weekend.

 

Happy birthday, Bird.

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:48:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: list of jazz albums

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Anybody out there know the answer to James' question?  That would be a

gripping Holy Grail to go after!

 

        Antoine

 

        ************

 

>       On 8/29/97 Miichael Stutz asked how Jack might have seen Charlie

>Parker's playing and the possible influence it might have had on his writing.

>

>       When the beats were hanging around Columbia and Times Square would be

>at the same time Parker was at his peak and also playing the jazz clubs on

>52nd St. alot.  I've read that there are tapes of Ginsberg and Kerouac

>reading with Parker in the background though I've never been able to verify

>it.

>

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:14:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Schlimm <rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe: Dean

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 12:39 PM 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Y'know, Kevin Spacey'd make an interesting Kerouac... He's a hell of an

>actor... Or perhaps, Gary Oldman -- hell, he's already been Beethoven, Sid

>Vicious, Joe Orton, a mulato gangsta, etc. etc.... As long as Keanu Reeves is

>prohibited from any more beat-inspired productions, I'll be a happy camper...

>

>

>Kisses & Starfishes from Seattle,

>

>LD

 

i love Gary Oldman!!!!!! not to mention Dracula..he's the greatest actor.

but do you really think he's so good that he could turn into someone like

Kerouac? im so used to Oldman playing the bad guy.  im positive he'd be an

improvement from Keanu, Penn or Cage though.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:18:41 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nils-Oivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>

Subject:      OTRmovie/actors (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:01:27 +0200 (MET DST)

From: Nils-Oivind Haagensen <hlinh@alfred.uib.no>

To: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject: OTRmovie/actors

 

i see woody allen as sal paradise, and michael jordan as dean, i really

do, they would make a terrific couple, and the

lilac-denver-wishing-i-was-a-negro-part would be hysterical, i'm

not kidding around... ehr... well... maybe i am

nh

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:04:03 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthias_Schneider <magrobi@MAIL.ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>

Subject:      Help, is there any list of the cities they drove through in OTR

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi there,

 

does anybody have a list (or even a map on the disk) of all the cities they

have gone through (is Tucson in Arizona included?).

I=B4d need the information for my thesis.

Thank you for you support in advance.

 

Matthias (Berlin, Germany)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:56:55 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Beats :The List updated 30th aug 1997 (b)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Donald Allen

---

Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

---

Wallace Berman

---

Paul Blackburn

---

Robin Blaser

---

Richard Brautigan

---

Bonnie Bremser

---

Ray Bremser

---

Chandler Brossard

---

Lenny Bruce

---

Lord Buckley

---

Charles Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"

---

William S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,

                                                                Frank Carmody,

                                                                Will Dennison,

                                                                Old Bull Lee"

 

---

William S. Burroughs Jr.

---

John Cage  {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black Mountain School]

---

Caleb Carr

---

Lucien Carr

---

Paul Carroll

---

Louis R Cartwright

---

Carolyn Cassady

---

Neal Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"

---

Tom Clark [Paris Review]

---

Andy Clausen

---

Leonard Cohen

---

Bruce Conner

---

Gregory Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"

---

Robert Creeley [Black Mountain School]

---

Henry Cru "Remi Boncoeur"

---

Jay deFeo

---

Diane DiPrima

---

John Doe

---

Kirby Doyle

---

Edward Dorn [Black Mountain School]

---

Robert Duncan [Black Mountain School]

---

Bob Dylan

---

Kenward Elmslie [Z]

---

William Everson (Brother Antoninus)

---

Larry Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]

---

Richard Farina

---

Lawrence Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]

                                                        "Lorenzo Monsanto,

                                                        Larry O'Hara

                                                        Danny Richman"

---

Charles Foster

---

Robert Frank

---

Allen Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand

                                                        Alvah Goldbook, Leon Levinsky

                                                        Carlo Marx"

---

John Giorno

---

Morris Graves

---

Brion Gysin

---

Dave Hazelwood

---

William Inge

---

Wally Hedrick [Gallery Six]

---

John Clellon Holmes

---

Herbert Huncke

---

Ted Joans [Jazz Poetry]

---

Joyce Johnson

---

Lenore Kandel

---

Bob Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }

---

Robert Kelly

---

Jack Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,

                                                        Leo Percepied, Ray Smith,

                                                        Jack, Peter Martin,

                                                        Sal Paradise"

---

Jan Kerouac

---

Ken Kesey

---

Franz Kline

---

Seymour Krim

---

Paul Krassner [Realist]

---

Art Kunkin [Freep]

---

Tuli Kupferberg [Birth]

---

Joanne Kyger

---

Philip Lamantia

---

Jay Landesman

---

Fran Landesman

---

James Laughlin

---

Denise Levertov

---

Timothy Leary

---

Lawrence Lipton

---

Ron Loewinsohn

---

Malcom Lowry

---

Bill MacNeill

---

Norman Mailer

---

Gerard Malanga

---

Edward Marshall

---

Peter Martin

---

Lewis McAdams

---

Joanna McClure

---

Michael McClure

---

Taylor Mead

---

David Meltzer

---

Jack Micheline

---

Henry Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }

---

John Montgomery

---

Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao

---

Harold Norse

---

Frank O'Hara

---

Charles Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]

---

Peter Orlovsky

---

Kenneth Patchen

---

Thomas Parkinson

---

Nancy Peters

---

Stuart Z. Perkoff

---

Charles Plymell

---

Dan Propper

---

Kenneth Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]

---

Theodore Roethke

---

Hugh Romney

---

Michael Rumaker

---

Ed Sanders

---

Mark Schorer

---

Hubert Jr. Selby

---

Gary Snyder

---

Carl Solomon

---

Jack Spicer

---

Hunter Stockton Thompson

---

Charles Upton

---

Janine Pommy Vega

---

Mark Tobey

---

Alexander Trocchi

---

Anne Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]

---

Lewis Warsh

---

Alan W. Watts

---

Lew Welch

---

Philip Whalen

---

John Wieners

---

Jonathan Williams

---

William Carlos Williams

---

Ruth Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]

-*-

 

Hello!,

i'm listing the beat generation

(writers & painters & performers)

& i begin with a list, everyone

interested can propose a new name.

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm

thanks,

Rinaldo Rasa.

30th august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.

 

-*-

the list of credits & comments:

 

Walter Campbell         <walter.campbell@usa.net>

Timothy K. Gallaher     <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Richard M. Kershenbaum  <r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>

OHearn                          <orpheus@in.the.shadows>

David Schwarm           <dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>

James Stauffer          <stauffer@pacbell.net>

Michael Stutz           <stutz@dsl.org>

-*-

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:23:01 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Help,

              is there any list of the cities they drove through in OTR

In-Reply-To:  <v03007800b02dbb9f7c01@[160.45.231.7]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

 

Ciao Matthias,

 

in the novel OTR Sal & Dean travel:

 

===================================================

San Francisco (Mill City) - New York (Paterson)

 

        -Oakland

        -Tracy

        -Manteca

        -Madera

        -Bakerfield

        -Los Angeles

        -Bakerfield

        -Sabinal

        -Madera

        -Fresno

        -Sabinal

        -Los Angeles

        -Indio, Arizona

        -Blyte

        -Salome

        -Flagstaff, Arizona

        -Dalhart, Texas

        -St Louis, Missouri

        -Columbus, Ohio

        -Pittsburg, Pennsylvania

        -Harrysburg

        -New York

 

 

New York - San Francisco - New York

 

        -Baltimore, Maryland

        -Washington

        -Richmond, Virginia

        -Testament

        -Dunn, North Carolina

        -Macon, South Carolina

        -Flomaton, florida

        -Mobile, Alabama

        -New Orleans, Lousiana

        -Algiers

        -Baton Rouge

        -Port Allen

        -Opelousas

        -Starks

        -Deweyville

        -Beaumont, Texas

        -Houston

        -Fredericksburg

        -Sonora

        -El Paso, Texas

        -Ozona

        -Las Cruces, New Mexico

        -Benson, Arizona

        -Tucson, Arizona

        -Fort Lowell

        -Palm Springs, California

        -Bakersfield

        -Tulare

        -Madera

        -San Francisco

        -New York

===============================================

i hope this is a bit help,

saluti cordiali da

Rinaldo.

Venezia-Mestre, Italia.

 

 

At 14.04 30/08/97 +0200,

Matthias_Schneider <magrobi@MAIL.ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>wrote:

>Hi there,

>

>does anybody have a list (or even a map on the disk) of all the cities they

>have gone through (is Tucson in Arizona included?).

>I4d need the information for my thesis.

>Thank you for you support in advance.

>

>Matthias (Berlin, Germany)

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:28:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beats :The List updated 30th aug 1997 (b)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> Donald Allen

> ---

> Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

> ---

> Wallace Berman

> ---

> Paul Blackburn

> ---

> Robin Blaser

> ---

> Richard Brautigan

> ---

> Bonnie Bremser

> ---

> Ray Bremser

> ---

> Chandler Brossard

> ---

> Lenny Bruce

> ---

> Lord Buckley

> ---

> Charles Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"

> ---

> William S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,

>                                                                 Frank Carmody,

>                                                                 Will Dennison,

>                                                                 Old Bull Lee"

>

> ---

> William S. Burroughs Jr.

> ---

> John Cage  {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black Mountain School]

> ---

> Caleb Carr

> ---

> Lucien Carr

> ---

> Paul Carroll

> ---

> Louis R Cartwright

> ---

> Carolyn Cassady

> ---

> Neal Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"

> ---

> Tom Clark [Paris Review]

> ---

> Andy Clausen

> ---

> Leonard Cohen

> ---

> Bruce Conner

> ---

> Gregory Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"

> ---

> Robert Creeley [Black Mountain School]

> ---

> Henry Cru "Remi Boncoeur"

> ---

> Jay deFeo

> ---

> Diane DiPrima

> ---

> John Doe

> ---

> Kirby Doyle

> ---

> Edward Dorn [Black Mountain School]

> ---

> Robert Duncan [Black Mountain School]

> ---

> Bob Dylan

> ---

> Kenward Elmslie [Z]

> ---

> William Everson (Brother Antoninus)

> ---

> Larry Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]

> ---

> Richard Farina

> ---

> Lawrence Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]

>                                                         "Lorenzo Monsanto,

>                                                         Larry O'Hara

>                                                         Danny Richman"

> ---

> Charles Foster

> ---

> Robert Frank

> ---

> Allen Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand

>                                                         Alvah Goldbook, Leon

 Levinsky

>                                                         Carlo Marx"

> ---

> John Giorno

> ---

> Morris Graves

> ---

> Brion Gysin

> ---

> Dave Hazelwood

> ---

> William Inge

> ---

> Wally Hedrick [Gallery Six]

> ---

> John Clellon Holmes

> ---

> Herbert Huncke

> ---

> Ted Joans [Jazz Poetry]

> ---

> Joyce Johnson

> ---

> Lenore Kandel

> ---

> Bob Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }

> ---

> Robert Kelly

> ---

> Jack Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,

>                                                         Leo Percepied, Ray

 Smith,

>                                                         Jack, Peter Martin,

>                                                         Sal Paradise"

> ---

> Jan Kerouac

> ---

> Ken Kesey

> ---

> Franz Kline

> ---

> Seymour Krim

> ---

> Paul Krassner [Realist]

> ---

> Art Kunkin [Freep]

> ---

> Tuli Kupferberg [Birth]

> ---

> Joanne Kyger

> ---

> Philip Lamantia

> ---

> Jay Landesman

> ---

> Fran Landesman

> ---

> James Laughlin

> ---

> Denise Levertov

> ---

> Timothy Leary

> ---

> Lawrence Lipton

> ---

> Ron Loewinsohn

> ---

> Malcom Lowry

> ---

> Bill MacNeill

> ---

> Norman Mailer

> ---

> Gerard Malanga

> ---

> Edward Marshall

> ---

> Peter Martin

> ---

> Lewis McAdams

> ---

> Joanna McClure

> ---

> Michael McClure

> ---

> Taylor Mead

> ---

> David Meltzer

> ---

> Jack Micheline

> ---

> Henry Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }

> ---

> John Montgomery

> ---

> Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao

> ---

> Harold Norse

> ---

> Frank O'Hara

> ---

> Charles Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]

> ---

> Peter Orlovsky

> ---

> Kenneth Patchen

> ---

> Thomas Parkinson

> ---

> Nancy Peters

> ---

> Stuart Z. Perkoff

> ---

> Charles Plymell

> ---

> Dan Propper

> ---

> Kenneth Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]

> ---

> Theodore Roethke

> ---

> Hugh Romney

> ---

> Michael Rumaker

> ---

> Ed Sanders

> ---

> Mark Schorer

> ---

> Hubert Jr. Selby

> ---

> Gary Snyder

> ---

> Carl Solomon

> ---

> Jack Spicer

> ---

> Hunter Stockton Thompson

> ---

> Charles Upton

> ---

> Janine Pommy Vega

> ---

> Mark Tobey

> ---

> Alexander Trocchi

> ---

> Anne Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]

> ---

> Lewis Warsh

> ---

> Alan W. Watts

> ---

> Lew Welch

> ---

> Philip Whalen

> ---

> John Wieners

> ---

> Jonathan Williams

> ---

> William Carlos Williams

> ---

> Ruth Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]

> -*-

>

> Hello!,

> i'm listing the beat generation

> (writers & painters & performers)

> & i begin with a list, everyone

> interested can propose a new name.

> http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm

> thanks,

> Rinaldo Rasa.

> 30th august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.

>

> -*-

> the list of credits & comments:

>

> Walter Campbell         <walter.campbell@usa.net>

> Timothy K. Gallaher     <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

> Richard M. Kershenbaum  <r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>

> OHearn                          <orpheus@in.the.shadows>

> David Schwarm           <dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>

> James Stauffer          <stauffer@pacbell.net>

> Michael Stutz           <stutz@dsl.org>

> -*-

i would add

james gauerholz

david ohle

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:36:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Help,

              is there any list of the cities they drove through in OTR

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

>

> Ciao Matthias,

>

> in the novel OTR Sal & Dean travel:

>

> ===================================================

> San Francisco (Mill City) - New York (Paterson)

>

>         -Oakland

>         -Tracy

>         -Manteca

>         -Madera

>         -Bakerfield

>         -Los Angeles

>         -Bakerfield

>         -Sabinal

>         -Madera

>         -Fresno

>         -Sabinal

>         -Los Angeles

>         -Indio, Arizona

>         -Blyte

>         -Salome

>         -Flagstaff, Arizona

>         -Dalhart, Texas

>         -St Louis, Missouri

>         -Columbus, Ohio

>         -Pittsburg, Pennsylvania

>         -Harrysburg

>         -New York

>

> New York - San Francisco - New York

>

>         -Baltimore, Maryland

>         -Washington

>         -Richmond, Virginia

>         -Testament

>         -Dunn, North Carolina

>         -Macon, South Carolina

 

Rinaldo, on this line, I am sure they came through South Carolina.  But,

I would have thought that Macon would be Macon, Gerogia.  I will have to

look to see if we have a Macon in South Carolina.

 

 

 

>         -Flomaton, florida

>         -Mobile, Alabama

>         -New Orleans, Lousiana

>         -Algiers

>         -Baton Rouge

>         -Port Allen

>         -Opelousas

>         -Starks

>         -Deweyville

>         -Beaumont, Texas

>         -Houston

>         -Fredericksburg

>         -Sonora

>         -El Paso, Texas

>         -Ozona

>         -Las Cruces, New Mexico

>         -Benson, Arizona

>         -Tucson, Arizona

>         -Fort Lowell

>         -Palm Springs, California

>         -Bakersfield

>         -Tulare

>         -Madera

>         -San Francisco

>         -New York

> ===============================================

> i hope this is a bit help,

> saluti cordiali da

> Rinaldo.

> Venezia-Mestre, Italia.

 

> >

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:51:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>

Subject:      Re: happy birthday, bird

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Before the day is out and all this discussion moves away from Charley Parker,

>I just want to say today is Bird's birthday... so get out your old scratched

>up vinyl and listen to this genius.

 

 

Thanks for the reminder, diane! Put on some of the old scratchy vinyl last

night after reading your message and then sat outside in front of a small

campfire, jupiter, milky way, countless stars above and Birds sax drifting

out skyward from the open window.

 

>Don ended up in New York, living with Charley's "woman" Chan on 52nd Street

>for a while, and got into the same old habits all all the rest of them. He

>ran with Bird and Fats and everyone else, shared needles, did time, and was

>responsible for recording many of the tapes that came out of those years that

>were eventually made into the records of sessions and sold on various labels.

 

I'm listening now to "Bird is Free' "recorded in early 1950 at a

concert-dance in New York City by a close friend." Maybe Don?

Synchronisity. Just happened to have it on when reading your note.

 

And in Gerry's "Memory Babe" page 207 he writes of Parker and Kerouac and

Symphony Sid, the Royal Roost club and how "Bird was certainly Jack's

favorite jazzman."

 

It all connects through time, space and creativity.

 

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:23:01 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Pre-recorded?  (for David Rhaesa & Diane Carter)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>Arthur Nusbaum wrote:

 

> This topic, which I see you grappling with, is in my

> opinion one of the most constant and complex threads running through

> the

> whole WSB ouvre.  On the one hand, he has stated that his intention was

> to

> subvert the pre-recorded universe through cutups, and that he has

> "succeeded

> to some modest extent" if I'm quoting him correctly.  But, as DC has

> been

> pointing out, it gets very tricky- how can we possibly circumscribe the

> perimeters of the pre-recorded universe, comprehend its limits if any?

>  Couldn't the subversive discovery, the "happy accident" be part of the

> script?  This is where I have an idea, based on further WSB statements

> and my

> own small experience with cutups.  They are potentially a key INTO the

 pre-recorded universe, not so much a way OUT of it...

 

>  This epiphany came after the fact, he could not change history

> (subvert the

> pre-recorded universe) but he could UNDERSTAND it better in retrospect.

It has taken me a week to get back to you on this, but what I found

illuminating in your analysis was that Burroughs words are a key INTO the

pre-recorded universe and can serve as a guide for understanding as

opposed to a map or way out of the pre-recorded universe.  Does that then

mean that cut-ups lead to new ways of seeing and understanding, that they

are in fact "happy accidents?"  It seems to boil down to the fact that if

Burroughs believed in a one-God universe, it was conversely a God playing

with creation in the same way that Burroughs as a writer created and

played with his universe of words.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:34:11 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Benway

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> RACE wrote:

> I see WSB in Naked Lunch as writing for something like "The Carol

> Burnett Show from HELL!" - (with a big smile after the hell)  If you

> take what was "the edge" of acceptable humor and push it back across

> the

> board to where it is considered mundane and straight dramatics and then

> employ the same "sketch" technique (a talent only WSB has been able to

> master it seems) a whole new form of humor erupts.  Those who miss the

> humor pigeonhole the writings under categories of "Apocalyptic

> Literature" and whatnot.  Missing the whole game of this routine - the

> joy and laughter of it all ---- afterall should a Naked Lunch being a

> sombre ritual????

 

Back to the Joselito scene that I still fail to comprehend, I think.  The

humor part for me comes when he says,

"The doctor grabs Carl's cock, leaping into the air with a coarse peasant

gaffaw.  His European smile ignores the misbehavior of a child or an

animal.  He goes on smoothly in his eerily unaccented, disembodied

English. 'Our Old Faithful Bacillus Koch.' The doctor clicks his heels

and bows his head. 'Otherwise they would multiply their stupid peasant

asshole into the sea, is it not?' He shrieks, thrusting his face into

Carl's.  Carl retreats sideways with the grey wall of rain behind him."

 

Definitely a far cry from Carol Burnett.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:00:42 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      mother

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

mother do you think they'll drop the bomb?

mother do you think they'll like this song?

 

mother do you think they'll try to break my balls?

mother should i build the wall?

mother should i run for president?

mother should i trust the government?

mother will they put me in the firing line?

mother am i really dying?

 

hush now baby, baby, don't you cry.

mother's gonna make all your nightmares come true.

mother's gonna put all her fears into you.

mother's gonna keep you right here under her wing.

she won't let you fly, but she might let you sing.

mama will keep baby cozy and warm.

ooooh baby ooooh baby ooooh baby,

of course mama'll help to build the wall.

 

mother do you think she's good enough -- to me?

mother do you think she's dangerous -- to me?

mother will she tear your little boy apart?

mother will she break my heart?

 

hush now baby, baby don't you cry.

mama's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.

mama won't let anyone dirty get through.

mama's gonna wait up until you get in.

mama will always find out where you've been.

mama's gonna keep baby healthy and clean.

ooooh baby ooooh baby ooooh baby

you'll always be baby to me.

 

mother, did it have to be so high?

 

~cya randy

thanx to pink floyd lyrics page

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:43:18 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kicks Joy Darkness

 

On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:39:14 -0500 Richard Schlimm

<rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET> writes:

>where can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness

>(besides

>ordering it off the internet)?  is it available in some music stores?

>does

>anyone have it?  is it any good?

>

 

I picked it up the only two copies at a local record shop in Omaha.  If

you avoid the chain stores and find a speciaalty record shop with a good

spoken word section, you shouldn't have any problem.  And it is great.  A

must have in my personal collection.

 

 Allen, William, Michael Stipe, Richard Lewis and many more all do a

great job. (Everyone except Julianna Hatfield, who must die.  She does

"Silly Goofball Poems" and everytime it is on in my apartment, my friends

and I make a mad dash to the cd player to skip the track when it comes

up.)  (Goes along witht he theory that all great compilation cds must

have one, token horrible track.)

 

Good luck.  I think you will enjoy.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl 420@juno.com

 

 "I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"

      -Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)

(this poem is done in it's entirity by allen on the kjd disc.  one of the

best tracks of allen reading someone else's work i have ever heard.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:18:29 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ken Kesey

 

On Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:43:28 -0400 Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

writes:

>There is a small article on Kesey in the latest ish of

>Q Magazine (UK rock mag)

>

 

I don't know if any of you out there are familiar with Phish, but I just

got back from following them for the last month and at the Buffalo, New

York show, Ken showed up with the Further bus.  He signed autographs and

hung out in the lots before the show and performed with Phish during the

show.  (He was on a quest to find the long lost Bozos.  We found 'em that

night.)

 

I was lamenting the fact that I never met either Ginsberg or Burroughs

before their recent deaths just before I left.  It was cool to meet

Kesey.  It was amazing to see Kesey and Phish come together on stage.  It

almost felt like a Dead show  that night.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl420@juno.com

 

 "I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"

      -Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)

"Can't this wait 'til I'm old?  Can't I live while I'm young?"

      -Phish, Chalkdust Torture, Picture of Necter

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:56:15 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who's Who in Beat Lit...

Comments: To: ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu

 

not just cut up, but butchered:

 

On Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:24:35 -0400 "Diane M. Homza"

<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> writes:

 

>Reply to message from gallaher@hsc.usc.edu of Thu, 28 Aug

 

>Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe On the Road was written

>there. (in the flat)

 

-I thought that it was written at the YMCA in Chicago.  I don't know

where I heard that, but while living in Chicago, someone got that in my

head and we always paid homage to that building as we passed it.  If

anyone knows for sure, I would appreciate the info.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl420@juno.com

 

 "I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"

      -Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:16:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      New Picture of Jack!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Our web page is getting better every day! Today we have provided a new link

that will bring you to a new picture of Jack Kerouac. This picture shows

Jack in all his dark beauty. Go to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

 

Then click on the appropriate link called:

"New Picture of Jack" or something to that effect. Enjoy and Happy Labor Day

weekend to our American readers! Regards, Paul of TKQ.....

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:45:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Rinaldo: Books into movies, additions to your List

Comments: cc: 74067.3712@compuserve.com

 

Dear Rinaldo:

 

I agree with your choices of films that did justice to, or even, as in the

case of "The Shining", were better than, the books from which they were

derived.  In my opinion (and this is indeed a highly opinionated topic, a

matter of individual taste and perspective) there are 3 basic categories of

films made from books.  The vast majority are to one degree or another

failures, unsuccessfully condensing & evoking the books.  Some are noble

failures (like the film version of NAKED LUNCH), and it's not surprising that

most films fall short of the daunting task of translating a different and in

some ways deeper medium- the untranslatable, apples into oranges.  In the

second category, one out of perhaps 100 efforts take on a life of their own,

departing from the books to a large extent and standing by themselves,

achieving the status of works in their own right, sometimes superior to or in

any case inspired beyond the books they are loosely based on.  "The Shining"

is such a film, and another Kubrick classic, his version of Nabokov's LOLITA,

is another- I found the experiences of reading the book and watching the

movie totally different, but both very satisfying.  "White Mischief"

completely departs from the factual account of the twilight of decadent

British colonial arstocracy in Kenya on which it is loosely based, and is an

overlooked gem of character study (especially of the cuckolded nobleman

played by Joss Ackland) not quite buried in digressive Hollywood glitz.  The

third and rarest category is that of films that so closely capture the spirit

of the books they are based on that the experience of either reading the book

or watching the movie is almost identical.  I am aware of only 2 films that I

think fall into this category-  "Midnight Cowboy", based on the novel by

James Leo Herlihy, and "The Day of the Locust", based on the novel by

Nathaniel West.  Both were directed by John Schlesinger, who ironically has

captured quintessentially American stories although he is British.  If you

have not already, I urge you to read and see both versions of both works.

 

As long as I'm on the subject of Herlihy and West, I think that they should

be added to your list-in-progress.  Neither are squarely in the Beat category

technically, but if Malcolm Lowry is on the list, so should they be.  West

died in 1940, but his works, especially MISS LONELYHEARTS and THE DAY OF THE

LOCUST, evoke an unblinkingly truthful view of the American Nightmare that is

a foundation and precursor of the Beat vision.  The same is true of Herlihy,

I have only read MIDNIGHT COWBOY by him but it is a courageous masterpiece.

 It is almost contemporary with Selby's LAST EXIT TO BROOKLYN, with which it

closely relates. The common thread among these authors and the Beats is the

discarding of societal norms and illusions (in West & Herlihy's case they set

up characters who believe in and depend on media-induced illusions and are

then destroyed or at least greatly hurt by the truth behind them), and,

sometimes, the possibility of redemption by the attainment of real human

connections and values beyond the chasing of mirages.  Speaking of Lowry &

Selby, I would consider the film versions of UNDER THE VOLCANO and LAST EXIT

TO BROOKLYN both barely making it into the second category, failing to evoke

the cinematically unevokable spirit of the great works on which they are

based, but worthwhile separately on their own terms.

 

I agree with Diane De Rooy that ON THE ROAD and the Beats in general "can't

be done on film", it isn't likely that this new upcoming effort will beat the

statistics, especially if the usual currently popular crop of actors and

directors control it.  I would vote for Schlesinger to come closest to the

actual book, or David Lynch and maybe a few others to create something

separate from it but worthy in itself.  I am friends with a local young

artist and film director, James Bonner, who I believe could successfully

tackle a Beat subject.  He is interested in the lives and works of the Beats,

but is now concentrating on writing original scripts to direct.

 

Regards,

 

Arthur

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:04:33 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         LYSDEXIC <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: happy birthday, bird

 

Here's yet another bit of Bird trivia. A few years back, I was working in one

of the last Womrath chains of bookstores in NYC (1989) located on Madison

Avenue and East 84th Street. One day I aswered the phone and haerd an elderly

voice say, "this is the Baronese of Weehawken!" Thinking it was a freind

calling and trying to fug with my mind, I said something stupid like, "amd I'm

the Duke of Vice," and hung up. A few minutes later she called back, "this is

the Baronese..." So this time I got the owner who said, "oh, the Baronese!"

I was later told that the woman calling was a patron of the arts, the very

woman in whose apartment on Fifth Ave (in the Stanhope, I think it was) where

the Bird died.

 

Does anybody know anything about the Baronese (Baronesse?) of Weehawken, or was

the whole world just friggin with my head?

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:59:24 -0500

Reply-To:     christi@tor.hookup.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         heath <christi@TOR.HOOKUP.NET>

Subject:      Naked Lunch on CBC

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I've been lurking on BEAT-L a few weeks and I wanted to drop a note to

mention to any Canadians on the list that Naked Lunch will be aired on

CBC Saturday, September 6.

 

Take care,

 

Heather

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:26:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Rinaldo: Books into movies, additions to your List

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:45 PM 8/30/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Dear Rinaldo:

>

>I agree with your choices of films that did justice to, or even, as in the

>case of "The Shining", were better than, the books from which they were

>derived.  In my opinion (and this is indeed a highly opinionated topic, a

>matter of individual taste and perspective) there are 3 basic categories of

>films made from books.  The vast majority are to one degree or another

>failures, unsuccessfully condensing & evoking the books.  Some are noble

>failures (like the film version of NAKED LUNCH), and it's not surprising that

>most films fall short of the daunting task of translating a different and in

>some ways deeper medium- the untranslatable, apples into oranges.  In the

>second category, one out of perhaps 100 efforts take on a life of their own,

>departing from the books to a large extent and standing by themselves,

>achieving the status of works in their own right, sometimes superior to or in

>any case inspired beyond the books they are loosely based on.  "The Shining"

>is such a film, and another Kubrick classic, his version of Nabokov's LOLITA,

>is another- I found the experiences of reading the book and watching the

>movie totally different, but both very satisfying.  "White Mischief"

>completely departs from the factual account of the twilight of decadent

>British colonial arstocracy in Kenya on which it is loosely based, and is an

>overlooked gem of character study (especially of the cuckolded nobleman

>played by Joss Ackland) not quite buried in digressive Hollywood glitz.  The

>third and rarest category is that of films that so closely capture the spirit

>of the books they are based on that the experience of either reading the book

>or watching the movie is almost identical.  I am aware of only 2 films that I

>think fall into this category-  "Midnight Cowboy", based on the novel by

>James Leo Herlihy, and "The Day of the Locust", based on the novel by

>Nathaniel West.  Both were directed by John Schlesinger, who ironically has

>captured quintessentially American stories although he is British.  If you

>have not already, I urge you to read and see both versions of both works.

>

>As long as I'm on the subject of Herlihy and West, I think that they should

>be added to your list-in-progress.  Neither are squarely in the Beat category

>technically, but if Malcolm Lowry is on the list, so should they be.  West

>died in 1940, but his works, especially MISS LONELYHEARTS and THE DAY OF THE

>LOCUST, evoke an unblinkingly truthful view of the American Nightmare that is

>a foundation and precursor of the Beat vision.  The same is true of Herlihy,

>I have only read MIDNIGHT COWBOY by him but it is a courageous masterpiece.

> It is almost contemporary with Selby's LAST EXIT TO BROOKLYN, with which it

>closely relates. The common thread among these authors and the Beats is the

>discarding of societal norms and illusions (in West & Herlihy's case they set

>up characters who believe in and depend on media-induced illusions and are

>then destroyed or at least greatly hurt by the truth behind them), and,

>sometimes, the possibility of redemption by the attainment of real human

>connections and values beyond the chasing of mirages.  Speaking of Lowry &

>Selby, I would consider the film versions of UNDER THE VOLCANO and LAST EXIT

>TO BROOKLYN both barely making it into the second category, failing to evoke

>the cinematically unevokable spirit of the great works on which they are

>based, but worthwhile separately on their own terms.

>

>I agree with Diane De Rooy that ON THE ROAD and the Beats in general "can't

>be done on film", it isn't likely that this new upcoming effort will beat the

>statistics, especially if the usual currently popular crop of actors and

>directors control it.  I would vote for Schlesinger to come closest to the

>actual book, or David Lynch and maybe a few others to create something

>separate from it but worthy in itself.  I am friends with a local young

>artist and film director, James Bonner, who I believe could successfully

>tackle a Beat subject.  He is interested in the lives and works of the Beats,

>but is now concentrating on writing original scripts to direct.

>

>Regards,

>

>Arthur

>

>

The films of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest and The English Patient

are BETTER than the books they were based on.  I'm sure these are not

the only instances of films that are better than material they were

adapted from.  John Von Druten's play of isherwood's Berlin Stories

is its equal, and Cabaret is an improvement.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:51:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Jim Carroll & Jack

 

Forgive me if I'm rehashing old news, but I'm only a few months new to the

List... Anyhow, that aside, I was perusing the net  this morning and happened

upon THE BOOKSMITH Bookstore site where there's an interview posted with the

brilliant Jim Carroll (interviewed by Thomas Gladysz). At the tail end of the

script, Carroll talks about his first meeting w/ Kerouac, shortly before his

death...

 

>>>> "It was hard to get past Kerouac's wife, you know. Guys would

come to visit him all the time. He didn't like hippies, and he was real

conservative toward the end of his life. His wife kept anyone away from the

door who came to make this pilgrimage type of thing with a copy of On the

Road. If she did let you in, he might wind up getting high and go on a three

day

drunk, and she wanted to prevent that at all cost. Ted had trouble getting in

the

first time he went up there. This was with Aram Saroyan and Duncan

McNaughton, I think, to do The Paris Review interview.

Coming back from Maine - where we were staying with this guy from the Fugs,

Lee Crabtree - Ted and I were hitchhiking down the coast to Cambridge to do a

reading. We were not too far from Lowell, so Berrigan said, "Let's stop off

and

see Jack." We got there and his wife was very nice and let us in. But he was

in

bad shape and very crotchety. It really didn't go well except that he had

read The

World, this mimeographed magazine from St. Marks. It was a poetry magazine,

except that they had this prose issue. The story usually goes that he read

them

(The Basketball Diaries) in The Paris Review, but that didn't come out until

after he died. What I did was send him the manuscript.

He liked me in a certain way - maybe because I wasn't too hippie-ish. This

was

a time in his life when he was advocating William F. Buckley for president -

so

you can't really trust the things he was saying. Politics was one thing with

him,

he was on surer ground with his writing.

I got to see him again in New York, between six and eight months before he

died. He had to come into New York once in a while to see his agent. He was

at

Larry Rivers' house, and of course he was surrounded by all his old friends.

I

went up to him, and he said he had gotten the manuscript. He said he would

write me a letter of introduction. I didn't want to publish the book then. I

wanted

to establish myself not as a street writer, but as a poet. What he was

essentially

doing was giving me a blurb. When I did decide to publish The Basketball

Diaries, Anne Waldman solicited a blurb from Burroughs for the jacket of the

original edition.

Kerouac sent me this letter, and said, if your publisher wants a blurb, here.

I feel

funny about blurbs. Myself, I don't like to use them. But now, I get sent

books

from people who want blurbs, and I feel like I should reciprocate. Maybe it

is

bad form not to, but I usually don't do it. I try to avoid it. Certainly,

that quote

from Kerouac has been wonderful for me. I feel he was being very generous. I

know he wouldn't have written it if he hadn't liked the work; I think he felt

I was

carrying on a certain spirit that was influenced by him. He thought I was

carrying

a torch, and in a spiritual sense, I was.

I hadn't in fact read Kerouac when I wrote The Basketball Diaries. I didn't

read

On the Road or even Dharma Bums. I read The Town and The City first, which

was his first novel and pretty straightforward in form. I hadn't read him and

I

hadn't read Burroughs - but I had read Ginsberg by the time I got to the

middle

part of the book as well as Frank O'Hara and John Ashberry and all the poets

in

the Donald Allen anthology.<<<<

 

The site's address is: www. home.forbin.com/laverne/carroll/kerouac.html

 

Kisses & Starfishes from Seattle

L

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:47:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jim Carroll & Jack

In-Reply-To:  <970830185009_1648584289@emout15.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:51 PM 8/30/97 L.W. Deal wrote:

 

>Forgive me if I'm rehashing old news, but I'm only a few months new to the

>List... Anyhow, that aside, I was perusing the net  this morning and happened

>upon THE BOOKSMITH Bookstore site where there's an interview posted with the

>brilliant Jim Carroll (interviewed by Thomas Gladysz). At the tail end of the

>script, Carroll talks about his first meeting w/ Kerouac, shortly before his

>death...

>

(interview snipped)

>

>The site's address is: www. home.forbin.com/laverne/carroll/kerouac.html

 

That url doesn't work, but I found the interview at:

http://www.booksmith.com/reader/carroll.html

 

Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:02:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe: Dean

In-Reply-To:  <970829123705_1412377946@emout16.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

I was thinking some of the cast of the film The Usual Suspects (Stephen

Baldwin as Dean, Gabriel Byrne as Corso (if indeed he appears in the book,

i cant remember), Kevin Spacey as Sal) could appear in the film. Then cast

John Turturro as Allen Ginsberg, Christopher Walken as Old Bull Lee. Julia

Roberts as Dean's wife. Wait, what about Dennis Hopper as Bull Lee? i know

he's getting old...

 

leo

 

 

"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:09:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe: Dean

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Sinverg=FCenza wrote:

>=20

 Wait, what about Dennis Hopper as Bull Lee?=20

 

I think sean penn would make a good Bull Lee, if he played him with

elegance and craft. Oh my god what have i done. Entered into this

casting thread, help, help. before i decide credit font.

p

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:29:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: OTR film

Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

In-Reply-To:  <3404ED71.788F@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

It has to be understood that any film version of a novel can only contain

parts of that novel.  Thats why they are called adaptations.  I saw a

copy of the early script for OTR last year (a street vendor in the

village regularly sells movie scripts and had an OTR one).  It seemed

good but many of you wouldnt like it if overly devoted to the book.

 

The movie is going to focus almost entirely on the Sal/Dean story.

Consequently most of part one of OTR will not be in the film.  The story

of Kerouac's first trip west, Cheyenne, Denver, working as a guard in

Frisco, living in the fields picking cotton with the mexican girl Terry.

All great scenes, but no Neal/Dean in them, so not likely to make the cut

in a two hour movie.  Terry, Minnesota Slim, Remi Bonceur etc are also

all extraneous characters that would be too confusing and for which there

would be no time in a two hour film to flesh them out.

 

Consequently it remains to be seen if there is a way to do justice to OTR

in two hours.  The script I saw focuses almost entirely on Sal, Dean, and

Carlo Marx (the Ginsberg character), and enlarges the role of the

Old Bull Lee (Burroughs) character.  In fact the first scenes in the

script are of those four characters in NYC, when Cassady first arrives

(an inaccuracy since Burroughs was already on the run from NYC by then

and living in Texas)

 

But any movie adaptation has to take literary license like that.  Lets

just hope that Coppola does it well.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:38:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Beat books

In-Reply-To:  <199708290719.AAA14245@hsc.usc.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Took a trip over to the venerable Strand used book store today.  In rare

book dept, they have two interesting items:

 

1. A first edition, in excellent condition btw, of "Town and the City"

   Looks like new but lacks dust jacket.  $70  Interesting because the author

   is listed as "John Kerouac"

 

2. A first edition of a scholarly beat book I'd never heard of from the

   late 50's called "Holy Barbarians" by Lawrence Lipton.  Anyone ever read

   this?.  Most of the major beat writers are quoted or interviewed in

   it.  Jack Kerouac is a glaring absence though.  He is rarely even referred

   to except in an interview with Ginsberg and Gregory Corso, who mention

   Kerouac in every answer to every question.  Since this book was likely

   only written because of OTR popularity, I can only surmise that Kerouac

   refused to cooperate with the project and the author punished him by

   virtually writing him out of his beat history.

 

 

I had no money to buy this book so Im interested in hearing if anyone has

read it.  Lipton had a generational age difference with the beat subjects

he wrote about so just from flipping through it, it seems like he might

have viewed it more as a cult and one-time social phenomenon than

anything potentially lasting.  But as I said I havent read it.

 

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:39:03 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         LYSDEXIC <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: OTR film

 

I think Eddie Murphy should play all the parts.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:47:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: happy birthday, bird

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

In a message dated 97-08-30 12:53:50 EDT, Michael Czarnecki wrote:

 

<< I'm listening now to "Bird is Free' "recorded in early 1950 at a

 concert-dance in New York City by a close friend." Maybe Don?

  >>

You know, growing up with Don Lanphere, I just always thought he was kind=

a

ordinary, except he was cool about drugs in the Sixties when grown-ups

weren't cool about drugs. I heard him jam in the basement of the Belmont

Music store with other jazz players he'd bring in from out of town, and n=

ever

thought he was anything special. He was the first sax player I'd ever hea=

rd

demonstrating the "form." I just figured everyone played like that.

 

Only later, when I began my jazz education (thanks to Don and local beatn=

ik

record store owner, Bob Godfrey, a boyhood chum of Don's there in Wenatch=

ee)

did I realize how special he was. He makes it look easy, like all the gre=

ats

do and did.

 

I finally got around to interviewing Don formally for a couple stories I =

did

on him back in 1994. Only then did I realize the extent of his associatio=

n

with the Chicago and Kansas City beboppers and the denizens of 52nd Stree=

t. I

hadn't realized until then that he'd also played with Woody Herman (was o=

ne

of the Four Brothers), nor had I realized that he was one of the many peo=

ple

lugging a reel-to-reel tape recorder around everywhere (which was a major

reason why Bird would always make certain he included Don. He'd say, "We'=

re

playing at the Baby Grand... come on down and bring your recorder.") And =

Don,

who was just 17 or 18 years old then, would always show up and record, an=

d

sometimes he played.

 

Out of curiosity today, I did a web search for Don Lanphere and found a l=

ot

of stuff. Here's a bit of bio:

 .......................

Don Lanphere began playing the saxophone at the age of eight after listen=

ing

to jazz artists Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong at his father's music

store in Wenatchee, WA. By the age of 12 he was a featured soloist with D=

ick

Jurgens and at 17 with the Jimmy Lunceford band.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 By 1948 Lanphere had landed in the legendary 52'nd Street=

 jazz scene,

recording with legends Fats Navarro and Charlie Parker in New York. Years

later, looking for a change from the fast-paced drug-influenced New York =

jazz

scene, Lanphere returned to the Northwest.

......................

Then, I found a discography for Parker and on this album, on a cut writte=

n by

Miles Davis, I found Don had a sax credit:

BIRD'S EYES, Volume 12

(Philology W 842.2; TT =3D 74:01)

(e) Half Nelson (M. Davis)..........2:51

Recorded June 1950 at Jimmy Knepper's home, New York:

  Jon Nielson  trumpet

  Jimmy Knepper  trombone

  Charlie Parker  alto saxophone

  Joe Maini  alto saxophone

  Don Lanphere  tenor saxophone

  Al Haig  piano

  Frank Isola  drums

...................................

This is really cool. I'm not sure even Don knows he's listed here.

 

For a long time I've been meaning to ask Don if he ever met Kerouac. Also=

,

there's a play running here in Seattle called "Kerouac: The essence of Ja=

ck,"

and it features a lone sax player accompaniment to the actor's monologs, =

with

a "bebop" trio on weekends. It's a great play, by the way, and it's being

held over for the millionth time until the first week of October. Anyway,

I've been thinking how incredible it could be to try to put Don together =

with

playwright/actor Vince Balestri, and see if Don can sit in and riff on

kerouac some night.

 

So now I'm gonna do all these things and get back to anyone who's interes=

ted.

I think there are even fewer living beboppers than Beats today. Anyone kn=

ow

where anyone else is hanging out? gigging?

 

If you want more information about the Kerouac play in Seattle, drop me a

note. I actually wrote a review of it which I would send to anyone

interested.

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:10:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beats :The List updated 30th aug 1997 (b)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

And Ruth Weiss -- early jazz poet, helped organize Cellar readings;  also

integrated jazz readings with film, ie, "the Brink".  She's published 8

collections of poems as well.

 

>Donald Allen

>---

>Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

>---

>Wallace Berman

>---

>Paul Blackburn

>---

>Robin Blaser

>---

>Richard Brautigan

>---

>Bonnie Bremser

>---

>Ray Bremser

>---

>Chandler Brossard

>---

>Lenny Bruce

>---

>Lord Buckley

>---

>Charles Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"

>---

>William S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,

>                                                                Frank Carmody,

>                                                                Will Dennison,

>                                                                Old Bull Lee"

>

>---

>William S. Burroughs Jr.

>---

>John Cage  {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black Mountain School]

>---

>Caleb Carr

>---

>Lucien Carr

>---

>Paul Carroll

>---

>Louis R Cartwright

>---

>Carolyn Cassady

>---

>Neal Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"

>---

>Tom Clark [Paris Review]

>---

>Andy Clausen

>---

>Leonard Cohen

>---

>Bruce Conner

>---

>Gregory Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"

>---

>Robert Creeley [Black Mountain School]

>---

>Henry Cru "Remi Boncoeur"

>---

>Jay deFeo

>---

>Diane DiPrima

>---

>John Doe

>---

>Kirby Doyle

>---

>Edward Dorn [Black Mountain School]

>---

>Robert Duncan [Black Mountain School]

>---

>Bob Dylan

>---

>Kenward Elmslie [Z]

>---

>William Everson (Brother Antoninus)

>---

>Larry Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]

>---

>Richard Farina

>---

>Lawrence Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]

>                                                        "Lorenzo Monsanto,

>                                                        Larry O'Hara

>                                                        Danny Richman"

>---

>Charles Foster

>---

>Robert Frank

>---

>Allen Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand

>                                                        Alvah Goldbook,

>Leon Levinsky

>                                                        Carlo Marx"

>---

>John Giorno

>---

>Morris Graves

>---

>Brion Gysin

>---

>Dave Hazelwood

>---

>William Inge

>---

>Wally Hedrick [Gallery Six]

>---

>John Clellon Holmes

>---

>Herbert Huncke

>---

>Ted Joans [Jazz Poetry]

>---

>Joyce Johnson

>---

>Lenore Kandel

>---

>Bob Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }

>---

>Robert Kelly

>---

>Jack Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,

>                                                        Leo Percepied, Ray

>Smith,

>                                                        Jack, Peter Martin,

>                                                        Sal Paradise"

>---

>Jan Kerouac

>---

>Ken Kesey

>---

>Franz Kline

>---

>Seymour Krim

>---

>Paul Krassner [Realist]

>---

>Art Kunkin [Freep]

>---

>Tuli Kupferberg [Birth]

>---

>Joanne Kyger

>---

>Philip Lamantia

>---

>Jay Landesman

>---

>Fran Landesman

>---

>James Laughlin

>---

>Denise Levertov

>---

>Timothy Leary

>---

>Lawrence Lipton

>---

>Ron Loewinsohn

>---

>Malcom Lowry

>---

>Bill MacNeill

>---

>Norman Mailer

>---

>Gerard Malanga

>---

>Edward Marshall

>---

>Peter Martin

>---

>Lewis McAdams

>---

>Joanna McClure

>---

>Michael McClure

>---

>Taylor Mead

>---

>David Meltzer

>---

>Jack Micheline

>---

>Henry Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }

>---

>John Montgomery

>---

>Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao

>---

>Harold Norse

>---

>Frank O'Hara

>---

>Charles Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]

>---

>Peter Orlovsky

>---

>Kenneth Patchen

>---

>Thomas Parkinson

>---

>Nancy Peters

>---

>Stuart Z. Perkoff

>---

>Charles Plymell

>---

>Dan Propper

>---

>Kenneth Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]

>---

>Theodore Roethke

>---

>Hugh Romney

>---

>Michael Rumaker

>---

>Ed Sanders

>---

>Mark Schorer

>---

>Hubert Jr. Selby

>---

>Gary Snyder

>---

>Carl Solomon

>---

>Jack Spicer

>---

>Hunter Stockton Thompson

>---

>Charles Upton

>---

>Janine Pommy Vega

>---

>Mark Tobey

>---

>Alexander Trocchi

>---

>Anne Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]

>---

>Lewis Warsh

>---

>Alan W. Watts

>---

>Lew Welch

>---

>Philip Whalen

>---

>John Wieners

>---

>Jonathan Williams

>---

>William Carlos Williams

>---

>Ruth Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]

>-*-

>

>Hello!,

>i'm listing the beat generation

>(writers & painters & performers)

>& i begin with a list, everyone

>interested can propose a new name.

>http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm

>thanks,

>Rinaldo Rasa.

>30th august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.

>

>-*-

>the list of credits & comments:

>

>Walter Campbell         <walter.campbell@usa.net>

>Timothy K. Gallaher     <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

>Richard M. Kershenbaum  <r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>

>OHearn                          <orpheus@in.the.shadows>

>David Schwarm           <dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>

>James Stauffer          <stauffer@pacbell.net>

>Michael Stutz           <stutz@dsl.org>

>-*-

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:50:39 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Rinaldo: Books into movies, additions to your List

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Mike Rice wrote

 

 John Von Druten's play of isherwood's Berlin Stories

> is its equal, and Cabaret is an improvement.

>

> Mike Rice

 

Mike, I would differ on this, admittedly far from beat thread. The Sally

Bowles of "Stories" is a much richer character than the fluffy feel good

girl of Cabaret.  The "Stories", as stories, have less structure, but

are incomparably more honest about that peculiar time before Hitler and

about humanity.

 

Did like Arthur's take on Lolita.  I love that film, but I don't think

it stands quite on the same level as the book.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:00:08 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lawrence Lipton, etc

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

>

> 2. A first edition of a scholarly beat book I'd never heard of from the

>    late 50's called "Holy Barbarians" by Lawrence Lipton.  Anyone ever read

>    this?.

 

It has been too long since I looked at this book to remember it well.

Lipton was a significant precense on the LA scene--in a way an analogy

to  Rexroth in SF.    Holy Barbarians was one of those attempts by

someone with some academic connections to explain Beat to the squarer

academic world--like Parkinson's Casebook on the Beat.

 

LA beat, Venice Beat, has always gotten sort of short shrift since

Ginsberg so completely owned the movement from a public relations point

of view.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:37:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Jim Carroll & Jack

 

>>>>That url doesn't work, but I found the interview at:

http://www.booksmith.com/reader/carroll.html

 

Judith<<<<

 

 

Thanks, Judith. Sorry it didn't work --- but, strangely enough, it did for

me... Everyone else interested, follow Judith's lead... Take care.

 

*<>< & Kisses

LD

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:42:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: OTR film

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

LYSDEXIC wrote:

>

> I think Eddie Murphy should play all the parts.

 

Hey, dyslecix, how about Bill Murray in a few bit parts and Judge

Rheinhold (sp) was good as a straight man in both Fast Times and with

Eddie in Beverly Hills cops.  It could be their reunion.  And Eddie

could take off on a car chase, and then, they could just keep going. And

it could go down the same street Bullet did.  Yeah, put them in a Shelby

GT.  That's good.  Maybe even, Steve McQueen, well, I know he's dead,

but with that blueing stuff, they could paste him in.  So, I think Eddie

Murphy would be great!

 

Opps, I may be the only one, but I would rather analyze Naked Lunch that

continue this thread about a movie that none of us, unless Coppola (sp)

is on the list, will control.  It just seems to have run out of steam.

As for me, I am reading "Portrait of an Artist as Young Man" and

Embraced by the Light and The Beat Book by Waldman.  If anyone wants to

discuss any of those books.  Maybe I am in a bad mood, but, the thread

is getting old.

 

Peace,

 

There, I feel better. :-)

 

Happy Birthday Bird!

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:56:55 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR film

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

> Opps, I may be the only one, but I would rather analyze Naked Lunch that

> continue this thread about a movie that none of us, unless Coppola (sp)

> is on the list, will control.  It just seems to have run out of steam.

> As for me, I am reading "Portrait of an Artist as Young Man" and

> Embraced by the Light and The Beat Book by Waldman.  If anyone wants to

> discuss any of those books.  Maybe I am in a bad mood, but, the thread

> is getting old.

 

bentz- glad someone finally said it.

 

> Peace,

>

> There, I feel better. :-)

>

> Happy Birthday Bird!

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

>

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:01:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?

 

In a message dated 97-08-27 01:04:56 EDT, you write:

 

<< Neal might be doable... but jack... no way. Stare at that face, listen to

 that voice, try to crawl into that mind (mined with mines). Find one actor

 today who can convince me he's jack kerouac, or even anything close to that.

>>

 

The book is a novel (fiction). The character is Sal Paradise. It is not Jack

Kerouac. I think it is possible that a movie can be made of On The Road that

will inspire a new generation of people by showing the character's outlook on

life, just like the book did.

 

The book On The Road is just a written recording of how Jack viewed his own

life. People often mistake it for gospel. I think Jack wrote about honesty of

emotions, not honesty of events.

 

However, I also think that it is more likely that the movie will suck because

they may be more concerned with making a blockbuster, rather then a great

movie. The point is to make a movie that stands the test of time. I don't

care who the star of the movie is. I think they should pick unknowns, don't

try to make a "Hip" movie, and let the story stand on it's own merits.

 

It took years for Its A Wonderful Life to find its audience. I would rather

find a small audience for the movie in the beginning that grows as the years

go by. I wouldn't want the same audience that loves Stallone and Arnold

Schwartzinegger (what ever his name is) to love On The Road.

 

so it goes, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:01:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly

 

In a message dated 97-05-23 12:48:31 EDT, you write:

 

<<  I

 am in the editing stage of Vol. I, No. 2 and writing Looking For Jack: The

 Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac for publication this summer. >>

 

Hi Paul:

 

How's it going. Can you send me info on your subscription rates to include in

the next issue of DHARMA beat.

 

thanks, later

Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:08:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

 

Two other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think

conveyed and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and

Slaughter House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that

capture the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very

difficult subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?

 

just the way I see it, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:08:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      DHARMA beat, A Jack Kerouac Newszine

 

Hello:

 

DHARMA beat, a Jack Kerouac publication, will be publishing the fall issue in

October (issue 9).

 

We are looking for Kerouac related events to list in our Kerouac Calender. If

you are having a Kerouac reading, or commemoration of his life, or film

festival, or anything that includes Kerouac, please forward information

related to the event (name, time, place, telephone number, description of

event). Looking for events starting October 1.

 

We are always looking for articles on or about Kerouac's life and writing.

Please send any ideas that you may have.

 

And if you have an interesting On The Road story, please let me know. Like

the first time you read it, what happened as a result, etc.

 

thanks and enjoy, Attila

 

The following is general information about DHARMA beat (previously e mailed).

 

DHARMA beat is a newszine (newsletter) that is published twice a year about

Kerouac's life and writing. Issue 8 (Spring 1997) was recently published. We

publish information of interest about Kerouac events and happenings around

the world. The most recent issue has an article about Kerouac living in Ozone

Park, New York; an article about Jack's sister Nin; and Allen Ginsberg

provided two dreams that he had where he's talking with Kerouac. Ginsberg

wrote :

 

"Poetry America was born before us & will live after us -- and would've been

visible for every eye to see but for the scientists of poetry & sociologists

of Academy measuring the vast mind with monkey calipers & teaspoons of ink

--"

 

DHARMA beat is published twice a year, spring and fall. Subscriptions are

$7.00 per year (two issues, make checks payable to DHARMA beat), $10 to

Canada and overseas (payable in US dollars or equivalent foreign currency).

Sample copies are available for $3.00. Mail to DHARMA beat, PO BOX 1753,

Lowell MA, 01853-1753. For more information e mail to KEROUACZIN@AOL.COM

 

We are always looking for articles and information about any Kerouac related

item you may have (for example if you have a Kerouac Poetry reading

celebrating his birth or passing) or anything related. Our main purpose is to

let people know about what's going on. The next issue will focus on the 40th

anniversary of the publication of On The Road. If you have a story, or know

some tidbit of information, please let us know (I don't really like using the

word 'Tidbit' but now I'm stuck with it).

thanks and enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 06:54:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      book to movies

In-Reply-To:  <970831030819_690619973@emout08.mail.aol.com>

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i agree with this one : both are wonderful,  alan arkin  brilliant

performance in catch 22. i can still see him in the tree.

mc

 

>Two other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think

>conveyed and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and

>Slaughter House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that

>capture the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very

>difficult subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?

>

>just the way I see it, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:42:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Kerouac Quarterly

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Hi Attila, since I have so much to choose from recently it has delayed my

publication (change of cover, added text etc.). I will have it ready for the

Kerouac Festival. The rates are $5.00 (USA) $7.00 (overseas and Canada).

Vol. I, No.2 will be between 40 to 50 pages.I don't take full-year

subscriptions as yet until I can get on a stable publishing pattern. Take

care and thanks, Paul...

 

You can also mention the web page. It is at:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

 

E-mail: Mapaul@pipleine.com

 

Thanks again Attila....

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:00:21 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Two Comments & Beats:The List updated 31 aug 1997.

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.16.19970830155811.27f72e58@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>

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Donald Allen

---

Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

---

Wallace Berman

---

Paul Blackburn [Black Mountain School]

---

Robin Blaser

---

Richard Brautigan

---

Bonnie Bremser

---

Ray Bremser

---

Chandler Brossard

---

Lenny Bruce

---

Lord Buckley

---

Charles Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"

---

William S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,

                                                                Frank Carmody,

                                                                Will Dennison,

                                                                Old Bull Lee"

 

---

William S. Burroughs Jr.

---

John Cage  {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black Mountain School]

---

Caleb Carr

---

Lucien Carr "Damion"

---

Paul Carroll

---

Louis R Cartwright

---

Carolyn Cassady "Camille"

---

Neal Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"

---

Tom Clark [Paris Review]

---

Andy Clausen

---

Leonard Cohen

---

Bruce Conner

---

Gregory Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"

---

Robert Creeley [Black Mountain School]

---

Henry Cru "Remi Boncoeur"

---

Jay deFeo

---

Diane DiPrima

---

John Doe

---

Kirby Doyle

---

Edward Dorn [Black Mountain School]

---

Robert Duncan [Black Mountain School]

---

Bob Dylan

---

Kenward Elmslie [Z]

---

William Everson (Brother Antoninus)

---

Larry Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]

---

Richard Farina

---

Lawrence Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]

                                                        "Lorenzo Monsanto,

                                                        Larry O'Hara

                                                        Danny Richman"

---

Charles Foster

---

Robert Frank

---

James Gauerholz

---

Allen Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand

                                                        Alvah Goldbook, Leon Levinsky

                                                        Carlo Marx"

---

John Giorno

---

Paul Goodman

---

Morris Graves

---

Brion Gysin

---

Dave Hazelwood

---

William Inge

---

Wally Hedrick [Gallery Six]

---

John Clellon Holmes

---

Herbert Huncke

---

Ted Joans [Jazz Poetry]

---

Joyce Johnson

---

Lenore Kandel

---

Bob Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }

---

Robert Kelly

---

Jack Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,

                                                        Leo Percepied, Ray Smith,

                                                        Jack, Peter Martin,

                                                        Sal Paradise"

---

Jan Kerouac

---

Ken Kesey

---

Franz Kline

---

Seymour Krim

---

Paul Krassner [Realist]

---

Art Kunkin [Freep]

---

Tuli Kupferberg [Birth]

---

Joanne Kyger

---

Philip Lamantia

---

Jay Landesman

---

Fran Landesman

---

James Laughlin

---

Denise Levertov [Black Mountain School]

---

Timothy Leary

---

Lawrence Lipton [The Holy Barbarians]

---

Ron Loewinsohn

---

Malcom Lowry

---

Bill MacNeill

---

Norman Mailer

---

Gerard Malanga

---

Edward Marshall

---

Peter Martin

---

Lewis McAdams

---

Joanna McClure

---

Michael McClure

---

Taylor Mead

---

David Meltzer

---

Jack Micheline

---

Henry Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }

---

John Montgomery

---

Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao

---

Harold Norse

---

Frank O'Hara

---

David Ohle

---

Charles Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]

---

Peter Orlovsky

---

Kenneth Patchen

---

Thomas Parkinson

---

Nancy Peters

---

Stuart Z. Perkoff

---

Charles Plymell

---

Dan Propper

---

Kenneth Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]

---

Theodore Roethke

---

Hugh Romney

---

Michael Rumaker

---

Ed Sanders

---

Mark Schorer

---

Hubert Jr. Selby

---

Gary Snyder

---

Carl Solomon

---

Jack Spicer

---

Hunter Stockton Thompson

---

Charles Upton

---

Janine Pommy Vega

---

Mark Tobey

---

Alexander Trocchi

---

Anne Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]

---

Lewis Warsh

---

Alan W. Watts "Arthur Whane, Alex Aums"

---

Lew Welch

---

Philip Whalen

---

John Wieners [Black Mountain School]

---

Jonathan Williams

---

William Carlos Williams {17 sep 1883-4 mar 1963}

---

Ruth Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]

-*-

 

Hello!,

i'm listing the beat generation

(writers & painters & performers)

& i begin with a list, everyone

interested can propose a new name.

http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm

thanks,

Rinaldo Rasa.

31th august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.

 

-*-

the list of credits & comments:

 

Walter Campbell         <walter.campbell@usa.net>

Greg Christy            <christyg@pcpartner.net>

Patricia Elliott                <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Timothy K. Gallaher     <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Richard M. Kershenbaum  <r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>

OHearn                          <orpheus@in.the.shadows>

Mike Rice                       <mrice@centuryinter.net>

David Schwarm           <dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>

James Stauffer          <stauffer@pacbell.net>

Michael Stutz           <stutz@dsl.org>

-*-

Addenda comments:

1. Subject: Re: William Inge ==========================

At 17.03 30/08/97 -0400,

Mike Rice <mrice@centuryinter.net>wrote:

>At 02:22 PM 8/30/97 +0200, you wrote:

>>Hello Mike,

>>i agree with u, William Inge looks like Tennessee Williams.

>>

>>BUT William Inge introduced the _hyperprotective_ character

>>of the "Mom" that seems to yield gay sons & match the

>>origin & development of some beat life...

>>

>>thanks for yr comment,

>>saluti,

>>Rinaldo.

>>ps. please, have i the permission to include yr name & message

>>in the credits for the Beats database?

>>

>>=================== your message ===================

>>Mike Rice wrote:

>>>I love this guy's plays, at least Picnic, but he's

>>>a sad homosexual from St. Louis, a newspaper critic

>>>who idolized Tenessee Williams, and wanted to follow

>>>in his footsteps.  Tell me how he was ever a beat.

>>>

>>>Mike Rice

>>=====================================================

>>

>>

>You have my permission to use whatever you want from

>my note.

>

>BUT William Inge introduced the _hyperprotective_ character

>of the "Mom" that seems to yield gay sons & match the

>origin & development of some beat life...

>

>The above is very interesting, so why don't you discuss it with

>the rest of us.  It appears to be a pet theory of your own,

>sounds fascinating.  It also implies that many beat characters

>and their authors are at least, latently, homosexual.  Lets have the

discussion

>on the Beat List, shall we?

>

>Mike Rice

>

>

Mike,

i think that i defend the presence of William Inge

(influenced Tennessee Williams some beat?)

in the Beats:The List.

a thread regard the "Mom" is at the moment for some

reason for me a painful.

saluti

Rinaldo.

====================================================

 

2.

Return-Path: <christyg@pcpartner.net>

Reply-To: <christyg@pcpartner.net>

From: "Greg Christy" <christyg@pcpartner.net>

To: "Rinaldo Rasa" <rasa@gpnet.it>

Subject: Re: the beats list

Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:04:07 -0000

X-MSMail-Priority: Normal

----------

> From: Rinaldo Rasa <rasa@gpnet.it>

> Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

> Subject: the beats list

> Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 10:08 PM

 

>ken kesey,i don't think so! I'm not sure he would either.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:04:09 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Rinaldo: Books into movies, additions to your List

In-Reply-To:  <970830174526_1187896134@emout04.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Arthur, Mike & James e others friends,

 

the list of "who is better" is useful, thanks from

the people who cant' read the original at first,

i.e. i read "On The Road" in 1969 in an italian

translation, (not Ginsberg 'cuz of poetry is aside documented).

i think that falling in love in Beat Lit is a matter who is

over the stricted US world, but i apologie in advance

if some myself consideration can seem to encroach on yr

own territory. please friends, have a little faint smile

for the european side of the world...

 

1.

"Blade Runner" by Ridley Scott. William S. Burroughs had

written the first screenplay and WSB & BR are/was for me

a couple inseparable inprinting. the beginning of the movie is the

best futuristic image ever seen. the city with rain like

tears is matched only by the unforgettable William Gibson's

phrase "the sky above the port was the color of a tv tuned

to a dead channel" (Neuromancer), Gibson had his credits

to William Burroughs (in an interview speakin' of his novel

Virtual Light).

 

2.

"Der Amerikanische Freund" director Wim Wenders (1977) was

from the novel "Ripley's Game" by Patricia Highsmith's

& is very great. Dennis Hopper, Man Ray & the good feeling stay

in my mind forever. Perhaps Wim Wender is near the beat in his

photographic works, his photos are sometime the best image:

John Lurie's kiss photo in Soho (black & white photo) &

Hollywood Bvd with star that "had the power!", & "Musso and Franks"

restaurant, "The Twin City Theatre", et cetera talk to me beat.

 

3.

"La strategia del ragno" by Bernardo Bertolucci from the Jorge

Luis Borges' short story is a must. i know that Bertolucci has

a little to do with beat, but his 2th film "last tango in paris"

was censored & the film burned & for a time Bertolucci 'cuz of the

movie he lost his political rights.

 

thanks again friends for yr patience,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:22:13 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

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 My apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a weekend beatnik these days I

come in a little late. I don't want to prolong the thread, but I do believe

that something that Richard Wallner suggested needs clarification. He

pictured on this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a

greying man but with joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's

authoritative stance might lead some folks to believe that is how it was.

Well, not to my recollection.

 

One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination with how

myths are created. I was especially interested in what was being said about

my good friend Neal whom I knew very well in the last nine years of his

life.

 

 I learned that facts, especially as they recede into history, are  no match

for deeply held wishes and beliefs. Still, here is also my opportunity to

let you know what I saw. You don't have to give up any belief that you

prefer to hold, you can always remind yourself that even the perceptions of

eyewitnesses can have their vagaries, but I don't have an invested interest

to revise history. Let me tell you what I saw.

 

It is true that I have to strain my memory about the greying part. It might

be playing tricks on me. Still, I have never noticed any  greying in Neal.

If he was beginning to get grey hair, it was not noticeable to me. And I saw

him a lot in the last nine years of his life. Not at all. Nor did I see any

signs of worry over losing physical fitness or agility. Up until his last

trip to Mexico. He did not present a picture of a man who is getting weighed

down by his age. He was only about forty two years old.

 

Graying or not, he was not a happy trooper on his last trip to Mexico. He

stopped to see me on his way and talked feverishly for hours about how he

was not comfortable in Oregon, how he had expected that the lady that he

expected was going to stay with him decided to go east with Ginzburg's

entourage instead. He seemed to be on speed which might have been hiding his

despondency. He was very animated and the fire in his eyes

was intense. He was not joyous. He was desperate. Very frustrated. A man who

was not comfortable in any of the scenes he was revisiting. He was hoping to

find something to lift his spirits in Mexico, but at the moment, everything

that he counted on was failing him.

 

Neal stopped to see most of the friends that he could find on the way to his

last trip to Mexico. He visited John Bryant for example in LA. John thinks

in retrospect that Neal might have been hoping that someone would stop him,

would throw him a lifeline.  He didn't see it at the time. At the time it

just seemed that Neal was asking for impossible things, like could he borrow

John's car  for the trip to Mexico! It was a man in despair who was going to

Mexico, not a man with joy in his heart rushing to embrace the mysteries of

life.

 

BTW in happier times Neal took me to John Bryant's house when he was laying

out on his living room floor the first issue of the San Francisco Open City

Press. Neal was the subject of that  the first free alternative publication

in San Francisco. Later John moved to Los Angeles where he published his

paper until he joined the Los Angeles Free Press.

 

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:08:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Neal--Man and Myth/Leon's post

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Leon Tabory wrote:

<snip>

>

> One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination

> with how

> myths are created. I was especially interested in what was being said

> about

> my good friend Neal whom I knew very well in the last nine years of

> his

> life.

Leon:

 

I am very interested in your comments on Neal.  Thanks for this post.  I

was going to write you an email and ask you to comment on music in

Neal's life.  Before I had read On the Road, etc, I read Electric

Kool-Aid Acid Test.  So, my first image of Neal came from that.  He

impressed me as a speed freak who was on the way to oblivion. Sort of

like some of the depressed and burnt out speed freaks I had met.  It

seemed he was living in the past.

 

Then, I read all of Kerouac's books and saw him as a "genius" who was

burning like a supernova and too fast and frantic.  But a "frustrated"

one who could talk, but not write what he could talk.

 

The music in the acid test was not jazz and I guess was embryonic

Greatful Dead.  I know that Jack liked Jazz music.  But what about the

blues.  Jack of course used blues in titles etc.  But did Neal listen to

music like Jack did?  If so, did he relate to the Blues.  I can somehow

see Neal more with blues than jazz.  Thanks for your oral history.  It

wasn't just another who will play Neal, it was about Neal the man and

the myth.  This is worth its weight in gold to me.

 

Last point, but to stand accused by myself of my cry to stop the Movie

thread, if we have to discuss Senn Penn, what about Sean as Sal, and

reunite him with Madonna and let her play Dean.  Then it could be a

musical like Evita.  Then Madonna could win her Oscar!!!!  Sorry, but

the mere sick image of Penn and Madonna together, etc, overwhelmed me

and after some back channel posts on this, I had to lay it out there!

 

 

<snip> Nor did I

> see any

> signs of worry over losing physical fitness or agility. Up until his

> last

> trip to Mexico. He did not present a picture of a man who is getting

> weighed

> down by his age. He was only about forty two years old.

>

> Graying or not, he was not a happy trooper on his last trip to Mexico.

> He

> stopped to see me on his way and talked feverishly for hours about how

> he

> was not comfortable in Oregon, how he had expected that the lady that

> he

> expected was going to stay with him decided to go east with Ginzburg's

> entourage instead. He seemed to be on speed which might have been

> hiding his

> despondency. He was very animated and the fire in his eyes

> was intense. He was not joyous. He was desperate. Very frustrated. A

> man who

> was not comfortable in any of the scenes he was revisiting. He was

> hoping to

> find something to lift his spirits in Mexico, but at the moment,

> everything

> that he counted on was failing him.

>

> Neal stopped to see most of the friends that he could find on the way

> to his

> last trip to Mexico. He visited John Bryant for example in LA. John

> thinks

> in retrospect that Neal might have been hoping that someone would stop

> him,

> would throw him a lifeline.  He didn't see it at the time. At the time

> it

> just seemed that Neal was asking for impossible things, like could he

> borrow

> John's car  for the trip to Mexico! It was a man in despair who was

> going to

> Mexico, not a man with joy in his heart rushing to embrace the

> mysteries of

> life.

 

And this sounds like the blues to me.

 

<snip>

> leon

 

Part of my problem is that I will not go see the Doors movie, I will not

go see the Hendrix movie and unless Leon, Charles P, James S and Gerry

Nicosia all four tell me that I HAVE to see OTR, I will not watch it

either.  I'd rather see reruns of 77 Sunset Strip or whatever that tv

series was.

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:07:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Leon Tabory wrote:

>My apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a weekend beatnik these days I come in

 a little late. I don't want to prolong the thread, but I do believe that

 something that Richard Wallner suggested needs clarification. He pictured on

 this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a greying man but with

 joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's authoritative stance might

 lead some folks to believe that is how it was. Well, not to my recollection.

> One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination with how

 myths are created.

> ...

> leon

 

leon , lo and behold this thread yeilds gold.    deeply appreciated you

sharing your memory of Neal. I am stunned by how hard it is to glean

truth from fiction.  I knew William pretty well, years ago at a party

here in lawrence i heard a guy say that William was crippled and his leg

was gangrenous from shooting up.  I said that was nonsense. He said it

was not, that he needed a cane just to walk.. Well i argued some more

and he said it is a fact. well i had been outwalked that very day by

that old man.  We had walked about 3 miles. We had gone to some land I

owned by the Kaw River, where I once had a demolition landfill.  It was

populated with wild turkey, kpot, and wonderous animals, on a wide bend

of the river. It was a great place.  William hiked all over it.  The guy

told me i was lying to cover up. I gently told him he was a shit, more

interested in attention and mean heartedness than i could stand. But the

myths abound, people imagine and then can't tell that to say something

,you should know something.  Like some guy indicated that William

dressed like the blues brothers.  It was weird, where he got that.

William would dress in khaki when shooting, denims at some events. and

beautifully at others.  I care not about fashion but even I was sent by

some of his  style.  The only thing i would notice is sometime he would

spill something at dinner, grab the salt shake and pour it on the spot.

I appreciate your story about Neal.  It doesn't matter to some people

that these are real people and that their vulnerable sides help create

the supermen stunts they have pulled off.  Sometimes william would tell

me the same story , slightly different three or four, or a dozen times.

But i learned more about exercising the mind listening to that obsessive

ranting than i ever learned listening to the cheap shots of punks saying

dismissive shit about things they haven't studied or thought about.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:17:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

 

In a message dated 97-08-31 12:32:32 EDT, in response to Richard's artistic

license while story-boarding the OTR movie, Leon Tabory wrote:

 

<<  He pictured on this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a

 greying man but with joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's

 authoritative stance might lead some folks to believe that is how it was.

 Well, not to my recollection.

 

 One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination with how

 myths are created. I was especially interested in what was being said about

 my good friend Neal whom I knew very well in the last nine years of his

 life.

 

  I learned that facts, especially as they recede into history, are  no match

 for deeply held wishes and beliefs. Still, here is also my opportunity to

 let you know what I saw. You don't have to give up any belief that you

 prefer to hold. >>

 

And without saying it, Leon has said it all.

 

Leon knew Neal. He knew him from his own point of view. He may have, in fact,

known the "real" Neal. Or he may have only known a facet of Neal, or he may

have known the Neal he wanted to know.

 

The point here is that filmmakers fictionalize and structure human dynamics

to fit into 97 minutes with musical soundtracks. That's not life. That's not

real. That's art, and plenty of liberties are taken.

 

For me, and for many others whose lives overlapped (at least in the time

frame) the lives of Jack and Neal and Allen, there is a context that cannot

be communicated in film. Driving a 1949 Hudson because it's a car, not

because it's a collector's item, seeking out Negro jazz in parts of town

where whites don't go because black people are segregated, kept apart from

whites in every sense by law, listening to the only AM station you can pick

up outside a city, only at night when the ionosphere is lower and the signal

comes in clear and being amazed at the lyrics which you understand but your

parents don't, lurking in diners and bars sneaking cigarettes, fucking in the

back seat of a car out in the woods where no one goes... no one... ever...

hearing about marijuana as "reefer madness," understanding the division

between "nice" girls and "good" girls in hushed tones and knowing glances,

but never using words to speak those differences, when all the boys wanted to

be James Dean and a "hood" wasn't an abbreviation for a neighborhood... and

most of us were either innocent, naive, or buying into lies, before

assassinations were de rigeur, before anyone believed in political

conspiracies, when McCarthy and Hoover and Nixon could be assholes right out

in public and get majority support... this is about 1/1000ths of what the

'40s and '50s and early '60s felt like.

 

The problem I always see in film that tries to recreate a period (and what's

the point if you don't recreate it?) is that nuance can only be understood by

someone who is able to suspend disbelief about the reality of the period. How

can some actor, born in the late Sixties or early Seventies, even remotely

understand what was behind The Road? Hell, most of them can't even tell you

the name of the current secretary of state, or who was President during World

War I, or which Roosevelt came first. Life has moved so fast away from the

sparsely populated post-WWII world into the go-go '80s and the

god-knows-what'll-happen-next '90s.

 

None of the actors anyone has named could portray Jack or Neal (okay, Attila,

"Sal and Dean..." get off my case, man...). They simply lack context.

 

And OTR is a sacred cow of the highest order, because what kerouac put down

on paper became a holy grail for millions who came after. The events of those

trips became a road map for life for people like me, Leon, and the majority

of people who embraced the truth of it.

 

Yeah, I think the movie will most likely be a travesty, and I think the

reason it shouldn't be made is because the truth will be repackaged into 97

minutes of bullshit, and as Leon said, myths will be created. A whole new

generation or two of kids will come up believing in the cinematic version of

what happened, and will never read the book, and will never understand

something that's important to understand.

 

Making the argument is exhausting. If you don't get it, I can never explain

it to you.

 

Amazingly enough, I'm pretty sure my protests won't have the tiniest bit of

influence on Coppola's approach or decisions. Go figure.

 

But those of us who knew Jack or Neal, like Leon, and those of us who feel we

know them so deeply in here (pointing to head and heart) will be the ones

batting cleanup when all the myths become neat little music videos and pass

into obscurity, made finite by their own unimaginative boundaries.

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:41:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

In-Reply-To:  <970831030819_690619973@emout08.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

 

 

>Two other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think

>conveyed and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and

>Slaughter House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that

>capture the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very

>difficult subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?

>

>just the way I see it, Attila

 

Has anyone seen the movie Mother Night with Nick Nolte, Alan Arkin? I've

never read the Vonnegut book it was based on, but i thought the movie was

awesome. Kurt Vonnegut makes an appearance as a man on the street. I'm not

a big Nolte fan, but i am more of one after seeing this movie. Some

wonderful scenes. He writes his autobiography from prison in Israel

awaiting trial for his war crimes (he was an American spy in Germany in

WWII but his country will no longer recognize him). when he finds out that

he will probably be found innocent, he pulls out all the ribbon from his

typewriter desk and stands up on his chair. He says something like "They

say a man hears beautiful music when he hangs. I wonder what it sounds

like." He does it. the end.

 

leo

 

 

 

 

"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:02:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: book to movies

 

M*A*S*H is arguably an example of a so-so book, a better movie and an

excellent TV series.  Rare, but it can happen.  I hope that OTR is made into

a movie.  I think, if done well, it could convey at least some of the

greatness of the book.

 

Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:13:29 -0400

Reply-To:     xcrslnk@rivnet.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "g. jones" <xcrslnk@RIVNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: book to movies

MIME-Version: 1.0

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i like to read a book before i see the film adaptation. i feel like

i'm cheating myself if i don't. someone mentioned 'the english patient'.

i loved the book so much more because it didn't focus as much on the

english patient. rather, he was just one of a few characters that were

the central focus of the book. it wasn't as action packed as the movie,

but it was more involved and there was just so much more *there*...

 

(howard, you sound like my dad. he is a mash freak.)

 

Howard Park wrote:

>

> M*A*S*H is arguably an example of a so-so book, a better movie and an

> excellent TV series.  Rare, but it can happen.  I hope that OTR is made into

> a movie.  I think, if done well, it could convey at least some of the

> greatness of the book.

>

> Howard Park

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:24:53 -0400

Reply-To:     xcrslnk@rivnet.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "g. jones" <xcrslnk@RIVNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

MIME-Version: 1.0

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hi leo,

 

have you read 'a clockwork orange'? i just got it but my mom thinks

i won't understand it. maybe i'm wrong. maybe sometimes it is better

to watch a movie first? what do you think?

 

steph

 

>

> Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

>

> >Two other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think

> >conveyed and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and

> >Slaughter House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that

> >capture the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very

> >difficult subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?

> >

> >just the way I see it, Attila

>

> Has anyone seen the movie Mother Night with Nick Nolte, Alan Arkin? I've

> never read the Vonnegut book it was based on, but i thought the movie was

> awesome. Kurt Vonnegut makes an appearance as a man on the street. I'm not

> a big Nolte fan, but i am more of one after seeing this movie. Some

> wonderful scenes. He writes his autobiography from prison in Israel

> awaiting trial for his war crimes (he was an American spy in Germany in

> WWII but his country will no longer recognize him). when he finds out that

> he will probably be found innocent, he pulls out all the ribbon from his

> typewriter desk and stands up on his chair. He says something like "They

> say a man hears beautiful music when he hangs. I wonder what it sounds

> like." He does it. the end.

>

> leo

>

> "Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of

> your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,

> you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly

> will. Ad astra per aspera."  --Jack Kerouac

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:43:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: book to movies

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I'm surprised that no one has mentioned John Huston's chillingly faithful

adaptation of "The Maltese Falcon," which gets my vote for a great book

that became a great movie.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:39:04 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

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 Patricia, Bentz, Diane

 

I am overwhelmed with your so quick to reassure responsiveness that is so

richly overflowing. Thank heavens we are here. We know we are here. We are

making a difference. We come from a dark world with flashlights, with

rechargeable batteries. Diane Carter said something about us being streams

all to the same river, I don't recall exactly the words, too many posts too

little time, well lots of pollution in that river, but it is not hopelessly

polluted.

 

Am going away for the holiday, have a great weekend everyone

 

leon

 

+AD4-Leon Tabory wrote:

+AD4APg-My apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a weekend beatnik these days I

come in

+AD4- a little late. I don't want to prolong the thread, but I do believe that

+AD4- something that Richard Wallner suggested needs clarification. He pictured

on

+AD4- this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a greying man but

with

+AD4- joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's authoritative stance

might

+AD4- lead some folks to believe that is how it was. Well, not to my

recollection.

+AD4APg- One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination with

how

+AD4- myths are created.

+AD4APg- ...

+AD4APg- leon

+AD4-

+AD4-leon , lo and behold this thread yeilds gold.    deeply appreciated you

+AD4-sharing your memory of Neal. I am stunned by how hard it is to glean

+AD4-truth from fiction.  I knew William pretty well, years ago at a party

+AD4-here in lawrence i heard a guy say that William was crippled and his leg

+AD4-was gangrenous from shooting up.  I said that was nonsense. He said it

+AD4-was not, that he needed a cane just to walk.. Well i argued some more

+AD4-and he said it is a fact. well i had been outwalked that very day by

+AD4-that old man.  We had walked about 3 miles. We had gone to some land I

+AD4-owned by the Kaw River, where I once had a demolition landfill.  It was

+AD4-populated with wild turkey, kpot, and wonderous animals, on a wide bend

+AD4-of the river. It was a great place.  William hiked all over it.  The guy

+AD4-told me i was lying to cover up. I gently told him he was a shit, more

+AD4-interested in attention and mean heartedness than i could stand. But the

+AD4-myths abound, people imagine and then can't tell that to say something

+AD4-,you should know something.  Like some guy indicated that William

+AD4-dressed like the blues brothers.  It was weird, where he got that.

+AD4-William would dress in khaki when shooting, denims at some events. and

+AD4-beautifully at others.  I care not about fashion but even I was sent by

+AD4-some of his  style.  The only thing i would notice is sometime he would

+AD4-spill something at dinner, grab the salt shake and pour it on the spot.

+AD4-I appreciate your story about Neal.  It doesn't matter to some people

+AD4-that these are real people and that their vulnerable sides help create

+AD4-the supermen stunts they have pulled off.  Sometimes william would tell

+AD4-me the same story , slightly different three or four, or a dozen times.

+AD4-But i learned more about exercising the mind listening to that obsessive

+AD4-ranting than i ever learned listening to the cheap shots of punks saying

+AD4-dismissive shit about things they haven't studied or thought about.

+AD4-p

+AD4-.-

+AD4-

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:48:17 -0400

Reply-To:     xcrslnk@rivnet.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "g. jones" <xcrslnk@RIVNET.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> The point here is that filmmakers fictionalize and structure human dynamics

> to fit into 97 minutes with musical soundtracks. That's not life. That's not

> real. That's art, and plenty of liberties are taken.

 

i think i understand what you're saying and if i read you right, i

agree with you on this! a lot of my friends go see movies only

because they've heard the soundtrack first, not because they've

read the book. and it seems they always have a totally different

opinion of movies than i do! ugh, i hate that! they make me so

mad because they'll go rent movies like 'natural born killers' and

'reservoir dogs' and 'pulp fiction', and think they're such great

movies! if the soundtrack was full of uncool music, i wonder how

they'd like the movie then?! i hate movies like that because they

desensitize (spelled that wrong i think!) kids. and it seems like

people who can watch these movies have the nerve to get upset over

movies like 'last exit to brooklyn', 'dead man walking', 'rivers

edge' etcetera... atleast violence is portrayed in a realistic,

psychologically thoughtful way! so what if these movies make us

feel icky and uncomfortable. violence should make us feel that way!

(i think i totally got away from the subject. sorry.)

 

> How

> can some actor, born in the late Sixties or early Seventies, even remotely

> understand what was behind The Road? Hell, most of them can't even tell you

> the name of the current secretary of state, or who was President during World

> War I, or which Roosevelt came first. Life has moved so fast away from the

> sparsely populated post-WWII world into the go-go '80s and the

> god-knows-what'll-happen-next '90s.

 

*frowns* you should be more optimistic. well, you should try atleast.

i don't think most actors are completely ignorant of the history of

the world before they existed. yeah, times have changed. and they'll

continue to change. but how you can blame kids for the way they turn

out when the parents are responsible? well, to a point. i know us

kids have minds of our own and we stop listening to our parents and

think for ourselves at some point. but if we are raised well, i think

we won't turn away from what we've been taught. (sorry i don't speak

as well as you guys do. i hope i get my point across okay.)

 

steph

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:11:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tolga Yilmaz <tolga@GIBBS.PHYSICS.INDIANA.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Hi. DOes anyone have a soft copy of Jack Kerouac's "The Origins of the

Beat Generation" that appeared in Playboy June 1959. I'd appreciate if you

replied.

 

Tolga Yilmaz. tolga@gibbs.physics.indiana.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:56:09 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      OTR: Dean & women

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Back to the book itself. Some passages that are stiking me this time

through.

 

pg. 132

"Only a guy who's spent five years in jail can go to such maniacal

helpless extremes; beseeching at the portals of the soft source, mad with

a completely physical realization of the origins of life-bliss; blindly

seeking to return the way he came.  This is the result of years looking

at sexy pictures behind bars; evaluating the hardness of the steel walls

and the soft of the woman who is not there.  Prison is where you promise

yourself the right to live.  Dean had never seen his mother's face.

Every new girl, every new wife, every new child was an addition to his

bleak impoverishment.  Where was his father?--old bum Dean Moriarty the

Tinsmith, riding freights, working as a scullion in the railroad

cookshacks, stumbling, down-crashing in wino alley nights expiring on

coal piles, dropping his yellow teeth one by one in the gutters of the

West.  Dean had every right to die the sweet deaths of complete love of

his Marylou.  I didn't want to interfere.  I just wanted to follow."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:58:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Neal....

In-Reply-To:  <9708310926.aa04347@mail.cruzio.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I think my words have been confused.  What I meant was that including a

shot of Neal walking down the tracks, counting the tracks, at the end of

the OTR movie, would show that even in a world of sadness and despair,

Neal Cassady was the sort who could find joy.  I think that what Kerouac

learned from Neal Cassady and others was something of the holiness of

life, of how everything, every moment is sacred and should be

appreciated.  Even at the end of his life, apparently at a low point

emotionally and in other ways...alone, broke, and lost on a railroad

track in Mexico, the myth at least is that he still found life sacred and

special, that he still found the littlest things wonderous.  So he

started to count the tracks because they were there, because they were

part of the world and therefore sacred.

 

Yes its probably a myth...he was coming down likely from whatever

high he was on and was probably counting the tracks in a

futile attempt to stay awake and not fall asleep and freeze to death

 

But who cares...what we celebrate is the myth of the man anyway.  Jack

Kerouac celebrated the indominatable spirit of Neal Cassady.  So did

Allen Ginsberg, John Clellon Holmes and the others who wrote about him.

 

Leon, in his terrific post, claims that he is not a revisionist historian

and prefers the facts.  The "facts" are that "On the Road" was written

about a hard-core thief, hustler and junkie who used everyone he ever

knew and didnt care who he hurt.  But regardless of that, it is also true

that people loved Neal Cassady...they loved him because deep down he was

wide-eyed and innocent and still a child, living among sad grown people

who had lost their childhoods long ago.

 

In Carolyn Cassady's "Off the Road" there is a pic of Neal taken shortly

before he died, and he looks terrible..strung out, tired, beat...but

smiling.  Maybe this isnt the Neal that Leon knew.  But pictures dont

lie.  I get the impression that Jack Kerouac was much more miserable

at the end of his life than Neal Cassady.

 

So I dont think the movie needs to show Neal at the end as a miserable,

broken man.  Show that he was beaten a lot by life but also show that his

spirit never died.  Even those who knew him would say that.

 

That isnt being a revisionist historian.  The facts arent being changed.

Just given a more palatable interpretation.

 

 

Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:10:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

In-Reply-To:  <9708310926.aa04347@mail.cruzio.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

>

> Graying or not, he was not a happy trooper on his last trip to Mexico. He

> stopped to see me on his way and talked feverishly for hours about how he

> was not comfortable in Oregon, how he had expected that the lady that he

> expected was going to stay with him decided to go east with Ginzburg's

> entourage instead. He seemed to be on speed which might have been hiding his

> despondency. He was very animated and the fire in his eyes

> was intense. He was not joyous. He was desperate. Very frustrated. A man who

> was not comfortable in any of the scenes he was revisiting. He was hoping to

> find something to lift his spirits in Mexico, but at the moment, everything

> that he counted on was failing him.

>

 

And I would also argue that maybe he *did* have his spirits lifted on his

trip to Mexico...since you never saw him again, there is no way to tell.

>From everything I've read, Neal was a moody fellow who was always looking

for ways to rekindle the spirit.   There is no way anyone can know if he

didnt feel rejuvenated by partyingin Mexico and wasnt in a good mood

walking down those tracks.

 

You can also be a revisionist historian if you read too much into

particular encounters and end up making presumptions.  There is no way

Leon or anyone else can know for certain what was in Neal's head as he

walked down those tracks.

 

So go with the myth.  It fits the legend.  Beat bylife but never

completely beaten spiritually...indominatable.  I still contend it would

be a worthy ending scene for the OTR movie.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:18:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      OTR:  Old Bull Lee

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The introduction to Old Bull Lee,(beginning on page 143) seems to paint a

picture of Burroughs much as one would imagine him.  Does anyone know if

he ever talked about being pleased or not pleased with the way Kerouac

described him in his books?

 

"It would take all night to tell about Old Bull Lee; let's just say now,

he was a teacher, and it may be said that he had every right to teach

because he had spent all his time learning; and the things he learned

were what he considered to be and called 'the facts of life,' which he

learned not only out of necessity but because he wanted to.  He dragged

his long, thin body around the entire United States and most of Europe

and North Africa in his time, only to see what was going on; he married a

White Russian countess in Yugoslavia to get her away from the Nazis in

the thirties--gangs with wild hair, leaning on one another; there are

other pictures of him in a Panama hat, surveying the streets of Algiers;

he never saw the White Russian countess again.  He was an exterminator in

Chicago, a bartender in New York, a summons-server in Newark.  In Paris

he sat at cafe tables, watching the sullen French faces go by.  In

Athens he looked up from his ouzo at what he called the ugliest people in

the world.  In Istanbul he threaded his way through crowds of opium

addicts and rug-sellers, looking for the facts.  In English hotels he

read Spengler and the Marquis de Sade.  In Chicago he planned to hold up

a Turkish bath, hestitated for just two minutes too long for a drink, and

wound up with two dollars and had to make a run for it.  He did all these

things merely for the experience.  Now the final study was the drug

habit. He was now in New Orleans, slipping along the streets with shady

characters and haunting connection bars.

        There is a strange story about his college days that illustrates

something else about him: he had friends for cocktails in his

well-appointed rooms one afternoon when suddenly his pet ferret rushed

out and bit an elegant teacup queer on the ankle and everybody hightailed

it out the door screaming.  Old Bull leaped up and grabbed his shotgun

and said, 'He smells that old rat again,' and shot a hole in the wall big

enough for fifty rats.  On the wall hung a picture of an ugly old Cape

Cod house.  His friends said, 'Why do you have that ugly thing hanging

there?'  and Bull said, 'I like it because it's ugly.'  All his life was

in that line."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:02:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Neal....

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Richard Wallner wrote:

>  I think my words have been confused.  What I meant was that including a shot

 of Neal walking down the tracks, counting the tracks, at the end of> the OTR

 movie, would show that even in a world of sadness and despair Neal Cassady was

 the sort who could find joy.  I think that what Kerouac

> learned from Neal Cassady and others was something of the holiness of

> life, of how everything, every moment is sacred and should be

> appreciated.  Even at the end of his life, apparently at a low point

> emotionally and in other ways...alone, broke, and lost on a railroad

> track in Mexico, the myth at least is that he still found life sacred and

> special, that he still found the littlest things wonderous.  So he

> started to count the tracks because they were there, because they were

> part of the world and therefore sacred.

>

> Yes its probably a myth...he was coming down likely from whatever

> high he was on and was probably counting the tracks in a

> futile attempt to stay awake and not fall asleep and freeze to death

>

> But who cares...what we celebrate is the myth of the man anyway.

> ...

> That isnt being a revisionist historian.  The facts arent being changed.

> Just given a more palatable interpretation.

>

> Richard W.

 

this is nonsense.  I understand that a movie might be made and images

might be used to convey the ideas in the book. I appreciate literary

license and the need to use it both in books and movies.  but to say it

is the myth we celebrate and not the man, man the we is you, not me.

That to me is hog wash.  i find the drunken meanness of jack k, the lost

black hand of william, the frantic dispair of neal unpalitable and

necessary.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:30:26 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      OTR: Old Bull Lee wisdom

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A couple more quotes.  I think we talked before about Burroughs dislike

of Neal and of wanting Kerouac to come visit without Neal; on page 147,

Old Bull, talking about Dean, says, "'He seems to me to be headed for his

ideal fate, which is compulsive psychosis dashed with a jigger of

psychopathic irresponsibility and violence.'  He looked at Dean out of

the corner of his eye. 'If you go to California with this madman you'll

never make it."

 

Also, in the car after he and Sal have been to the racetrack, Bull says,

"Mankind will someday realize that we are actually in contact with the

dead and the other world, whatever it is; right now we could predict, if

only we exerted enough mental will, what is going to happen within the

next hundred years and be able to take steps to avoid all kinds of

catastrophes.  When a man dies he undergoes a mutation in the brain that

we know nothing about now but which will be very clear someday if

scientists get on the ball.  The bastards right now are only interested

in seeing if they can blow up the world.'"

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Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:24:41 -0400

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From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

In-Reply-To:  <3409A4E4.9C1@sunflower.com>

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you GO, girl!

whahoo. and agreement

mc

 

patricia elliot wrote:

 It doesn't matter to some people

that these are real people and that their vulnerable sides help create

the supermen stunts they have pulled off.  Sometimes william would tell

me the same story , slightly different three or four, or a dozen times.

But i learned more about exercising the mind listening to that obsessive

ranting than i ever learned listening to the cheap shots of punks saying

dismissive shit about things they haven't studied or thought about.

p

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Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:24:45 -0400

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From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie/leon's posts

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diane de rooy wrote:

Amazingly enough, I'm pretty sure my protests won't have the tiniest bit of

influence on Coppola's approach or decisions. Go figure.

________

great post, diane.

i've been sitting on my hands and waiting for all this to pass by like the

hula hoop once did.

i agree with those who are losing patience with the casting thread (i never

had any patience at all for the damned thread) and like you, find that

redeeming value of this nonstop nutty thread has been leon's sure and

steady voice.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 05:05:29 -0700

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From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Neal....

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> Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> I appreciate literary

> license and the need to use it both in books and movies.  but to say it

> is the myth we celebrate and not the man, man the we is you, not me.

> That to me is hog wash.  i find the drunken meanness of jack k, the

> lost

> black hand of william, the frantic dispair of neal unpalitable and

> necessary.

 

I have to agree with Patricia for stating the truth so vividly.  It is

the human lives that we celebrate.  And why not remain true to the ending

of OTR, where the last time Sal sees Dean in New York, he's in a car with

Remi, going to a concert, and they won't even give Dean a ride. "he liked

me but he didn't like my idiot friends,' Sal says.  "So Dean couldn't

ride uptown with us and the only thing I could do was sit in the back of

the Cadillac and wave at him...Old Dean's gone, I thought, and out loud I

said, 'He'll be all right.' And off we went to the sad and disinclined

concert for which I had no stomach whatsoever and all the time I was

thinking of Dean and how he had got back on the train and rode over three

thousand miles over that awful land and never knew why he had come

anyway, except to see me."

 

The ending of OTR is very sad and desparate, "...nobody knows what's

going to happen to anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old..."

DC

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Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:53:08 -0400

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From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Rain

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Primal Rain

 

Primal connection.

One month, one inch.

Brown is

                everywhere I look.

                                        I am not sure I care.

 

But when it comes

                        I find joy leaping

                                                From the pit

And dancing on the grave stone of the drought.

 

Rainmaker, rainmaker,

Bring me your machine.

 

I cry with joy to see.

Water running down my windows.

I hope again,

                Believe again,

                                Miracles again.

 

Primitive, primal, joy of joys.

Rain is just rain, is just gold and pennies from heaven.

I am happy and don't know.

 

The rainmaker takes my money.

The rainmaker gives me honey.

The rainmaker is god.

 

Primal screams are silenced in the primal joys.

I was screaming so loud, that I forgot I was screaming.

Til the rain fell,

And I could tell, cause I fell

Silent

To a pool,

On the sidewalk,

And wept for something that is buried in my bone marrow.

The rainmaker.

 

 

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:04:34 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

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Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      tell me more

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>  My apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a weekend beatnik these days I

> come in a little late. I don't want to prolong the thread, but I do believe

> that something that Richard Wallner suggested needs clarification. He

> pictured on this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a

> greying man but with joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's

> authoritative stance might lead some folks to believe that is how it was.

> Well, not to my recollection.

don't worry- i wasn't upset with you for telling us about neal. i

enjoyed that. i probably will be lucky to get to meet jimcarrol at

the rate everyone is dying. just do it more often

 it really gave me hope for this thread.

like patricia said  the end of the otr movie thread is gold or

something. cya~randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:55:47 +0000

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From:         Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: OTR movie

Comments: To: xcrslnk@rivnet.net

 

On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:24:53 -0400 "g. jones" <xcrslnk@rivnet.net>

writes:

>hi leo,

>

>have you read 'a clockwork orange'? i just got it but my mom thinks

>i won't understand it. maybe i'm wrong. maybe sometimes it is better

>to watch a movie first? what do you think?

>

>steph

 

i was about to bring up clockwork orange on this thread and you beat me

to it.

 

looking back over arthur's recent post on  film adaptations, i think

clockwork fits nicely into the second category.  it doesn't mirror, nor

does it try to mirror, burgess's novel, but kubrick instead creates a new

piece of art, based on the novel, which stands on it's own.

 

the odd thing about the film is that it leaves off not at the end of the

original book (which has 3 sections of 7 chapters = 21 chapters) but at

the end of the americanized edit of the book (which ends at chapter 20).

i have heard different stories explaining why this happened and i know

that now we can get the original 21 chapter form in the states, but the

film will forever end without the 21st chapter.  this is unfortunate as

the intent of the book os horribly altered without the ending.  our

humble narrator is left at the end of the film back in the same place

that he started despite/due to  the government's intervention.  with the

21st chapter, our humble narrator attains a new perspective asnd

understanding of life that is omited from the  form most americans

(especially those who are too damned lazy to READ the book) ever see.

 

my suggestions:

 

1.  make sure you have the complete copy of the book and make a mental

note of where you would be had you finished reading after chapter 20.

 

2.  watch the film AFTER reading the book.  i believe the film can add

something to the experince of "a clockwork orange," but i think you have

to know where burgess is coming from before you can appreciate kubrick's

interpretation.

 

this is in my humble opinion.  this is one of my favorite books, so i

encourage you whole heartedly to stick with it.

 

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff

howl 420@juno.com

 

 "Being the adventures of a man whose principle interests are

    Rape, Ultra-violence and Beethoven."

         -A Clockwork Orange

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:31:43 -0500

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From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: book to movies

In-Reply-To:  <199708311843.NAA06741@mail.execpc.com>

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>I'm surprised that no one has mentioned John Huston's chillingly faithful

>adaptation of "The Maltese Falcon," which gets my vote for a great book

>that became a great movie.

 

And the powerful DARK AT THE TOP OF THE STAIRS. A great movie from a great

play by William Inge.

 

j grant

 

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

                   at

                     BookZen

                   http://www.bookzen.com

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

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Date:         Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:36:05 -0400

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From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Neal....

 

In a message dated 97-08-31 16:05:35 EDT, you write:

 

<<  But pictures dont lie.

 

The hell they don't. I've seen a dozen pictures of a single person and none

of them looked like him... or at least, they didn't look like they'd been

taken of the same person.

 

 The facts arent being changed. Just given a more palatable interpretation.

  >>

 

Richard, this just makes me flat-out sad. What a spin doctor you are. Why

don't you go work for the government? I'm sure you could spoon-feed us all