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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:16:21 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: list of jazz albums
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Great
list. I'll add one more that Kerouac
writes about in OTR -- pgs.
112-114.
The scene depicts Dean and Sal in rapture over "The Hunt" by
Wardell
Grey and Dexter Gordon. It would make a great movie scene
incidently;if
the movie conveys that energy it could make a jazz
renaissance.
Anyway, The song is on a double album also called The Hunt.
It's a
double album that also features Howard McGhee, Sonny Criss, and
Trummy
Young. It was a live gig recorded in
1947 in LA but released on
Arista
in 1977. Sound quality offends but the
crowd is ecstatic -- Go!
Go! Go!
>Hi
all you jazz fans....not to mention fans of other related Beat genres!
>
> [Bruce Hartman, Ron Kovachs and others
should chime in here also!]
>
> I'll offer up the playlists from two
compilations that I've made up
>that
were trying to capture that taste and time. I'd add that there are som=
e
>others
who didn't make it onto the list like Lester Young, Billie Holiday,
>Art
Tatum, Duke Ellington and the exemplars of vocalese, scat, wordjazz,
>hipsemantic,
and bebop vocals like King Pleasure, Leo Watson, Mel Torme (th=
e
>'Velevet
Fog'), Ken Nordine, and Eddie Jefferson. They're on a third
>playlist
that's harder to get at right now.
>
> I'll also recommend Owen Thomas' book
"Bebop:...(forget subtitle)"
>for
those who really want to immerse themselves . He starts with Charlie
>Parker
and deals with every other important bebop jazz player and their
>influences,
by instrument.
>
> For the Beat pure of heart, the Venice
Biennale Discography is
>pretty
complete and I'll e-mail a copy if anyone is real keen. And to quote
>Howard
Park:
>
> "Anybody with an interest in the
spoken word and audio of the Beat
>Generation
> should consider picking up a copy of
Stephen Ronan's "Disks of the =
Gone
> World", a 135 page compendium,
involving a lifetime of research, of
> information about Beat audio. This is THE discography of the Beat
>Generation
> covering the "big three" and
poets like Bremser, Bukowski, McClure
>and
tens
> of others. Its more than just a list, it has all sorts of other
>info
too.
>
> Contact Stephen Ronan at P.O. Box
5813, Berkeley, CA, 94705 (he's
>not
online)
> or e-mail me for price."
>
> Regards, Antoine
>
>
> The two playlists are:
>
> ***************
>
>+++...from
the gone world. =95 22
>
>Side
1 Antoine Maloney / 9th June, 1996
>
>big
high song for somebody (Philip Whalen)
Roy Glenn 1958=7F
>Epistrophy
(Monk - Clarke) Thelonius Monk w/
Milt Jackson on vibes 194=
8
>Travellin'
Blues Bulee
=93Slim=94 Gaillard 1945
>Cosmic
Rays Charlie Parker
Quartet 1952
>State
& 32nd Kenneth Rexroth1956
or =9159
>Picasso Coleman
Hawkins 1948
>9th
& Hennepin Tom
Waits=7F
>Clarinet
with dripping faucet (recorded by Tony Schwartz) Jimmy
>Giuffre
1959
>dog
(Ferlinghetti) Bob Dorough 1958
>Up
Broadway Moondog
[Louis Harden] 1956-57
>Street
Scene =
1955
>Bird's
>1968
>The
Bridge Lee Ranaldo
1985
>Drums
in my typewriter Woody Leafer 1958
>Bomb Gregory
Corso 1965
>H-Bomb Lord Buckley
1960
>Midnight
Sun Lionel Hampton
1956-57
>
>Side
2
>
>The
Bird Charlie Parker 1947
>Yip
Roc Heresy Bulee
=93Slim=94 Gaillard 1951
>Like Jack
Hammer 1959
>Cockroach Jack Kerouac 1962
>The
Hipster's Blues - Opus 7=BD Harry =93The Hipster=94 Gibson 1944
>Invitation
to the Blues Tom Waits
>Blues
Montage Langston
Hughes with Leonard Feather 1958
>Manhattan
Fable Babs Gonzalez 1954
>Little
Man Teddy Edwards with Tom Waits
>October
in the Railroad Earth Jack Kerouac and
Steve Allen March 1958
>On
the Nickel Tom Waits
>Thelonius
Thelonius Monk 1947
>
> ****************
>
>+++Bebop,
Beat, and Hipsemantic =95 29
>
>Side
1 Antoine Maloney / 28th March, 1997
>
>On
The Bean (Walter Thomas) Coleman
Hawkins with Thelonius Monk 1944
>In
Walked Bud (Monk) Thelonius Monk with
Art Blakey 1947
>Evidence
(Monk) Thelonius Monk
with Milt Jackson 1948
>=93Monk
is dead...Monk lives!=94 Clifton Joseph 1995
>Bloomdido
(Parker) Thelonius
Monk, Charlie Parker, Diz=
zy
>Gillespie,
Buddy Rich
>1950
>Celia
(Powell) Bud Powell,
Ray Brown, Max Roach 1949
>Koko
(Parker) Charlie Parker,
Dizzy Gillespie, Max Roach =
1945
>Slim=92s
Jam (B.Gaillard) Slim Gaillard,
Zutty Singleton, Jack McVie,
>Dizzy,
>Parker,
Roach
>1945
>=93The
Early History of Bop=94 Jack Kerouac
with Steve Allen 1958
>Ornithology
(Parker - Harris) Parker, Miles Davis,
Dodo Marmarosa 1946
>Slam,
Slam Blues (S.Stewart) Dizzy, Parker,
Slam Stewart, Red Norvo 1945
>=93Take
note daddy-o!...=94 Langston Hughes
with Charles Mingus Quintet=
1958
> ...and Jump Monk (Mingus) ...fragment
>
>Side
2
>
>Misterioso
(Monk) Thelonius
Monk with Milt Jackson 19=
48
>Now=92s
The Time (Parker) Charlie Parker
with Dizzy Gillespie, Miles =
Davis,
>Max
Roach
>1945
>=93Charlie
Parker....=94
Jack Kerouac with Steve=
Allen 1958
>Blues
Walk (C.Brown) Clifford Brown, with
Max Roach, Harold Land, 1955
>Take
The A Train (Billy Strayhorn)
George Morrow and Richie Powell 195=
5
>=93The
Train=94 Lord Buckley
1956
>=93Penn
Station...to Harlem=94 Langston Hughes
with Charles Mingus Quintet=
1958
> =93...Dizzy Gillespie...Lennox
Avenue=94
> =93I play it cool, I dig all jive!=94
>The
Naz Lord
Buckley 1959
>Sightseeing
Boogie (B.Gailard) Slim Gaillard 1945
>Yardbird
Suite (Parker) Charlie Parker, with Miles Davis and Dodo
>Marmarosa
1946
>=93...loved
that ol=92 Pontiac... =94 Tom Waits
1987
>Duet:
Queen Elizabeth whistle and Bamboo Pipe
Moondog [Louis Harden] 1956
>Symphonique
#6 (Good for Goody) ...fragment 1968
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in
Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do=
!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:28:04 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
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From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?
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>
Maybe he'd work as Lucien Carr somewhere...
always
thought of lucien carr of looking somwhat like dicappirio
but a
big star like leonardo dicapporia most likely wouldn't want
some
small part.
> --
>
"I can't imagine how I ever thought my love might make a difference to
him."
> --Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_
>
>
Diane M. Homza ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>
randy
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:29:15 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?
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>I
wouldnt put music over the closing credits...I'd put a live recording
>of
Ginsberg reading "Howl"
cool
idea as is the neal on train track vision
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:06:45 -0400
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Q Magazine/Kesey
In-Reply-To: <199708272343.AA19855@world.std.com>
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Could
you post it for us stranded in the new world if you get a chance?
On Wed,
27 Aug 1997, Carl A Biancucci wrote:
>
There is a small article on Kesey in the latest ish of
> Q
Magazine (UK rock mag)
>
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
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Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:13:01 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: On the Rote?
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>
Bullock threatening to pull out if Winona Ryder doesn't replace Hanks as
>
Kerouac.
Actually
I very much like Winona as the brooding Jack, But I would
rather
have Madonna as Neal, Stallone can stay as Burroughs . .
.Ginsberg--not
sure--maybe Bruce Willis.
J.
Stauffer
Plus
which the jazz soundtrack will have to go and be replaced by some
very
touchy feely girlrock.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:16:01 -0700
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR film
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Richard
Wallner wrote:
>
> I
think the movie should be shot in black and white, except for the
>
opening and closing scenes, which would be color shots of Neal Cassady
>
walking shirtless on the train tracks in mexico, counting the tracks
>
rightbefore his death.
>
>
The movie would be narrated of course, with the closing paragraph of the
>
book narrarated over the shot of Neal walking away down the railroad tracks.
>
>
RJW
To
which you could add shots of the bloated miserable looking old Jack
if you
want to really push a moral perspective.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:13:29 -0400
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From: Bill Philibin
<deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?
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>
Oh, anyone but Keanu "Wooden Boy" Reeves!!! His performance in Johnny
>
Mnemonic was like a cardboard cutout..
Agreed all around. But you have to admit, Johnny Mnemonic was a
great
movie
in spite of all that bad acting :)
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net |
web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat
]
|"Love
ceases to be a pleasure, when it ceases to be a secret."
|
| -- Aphra
Behn
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:11:36 -0400
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From: Bill Philibin
<deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe:
Dean
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> i
can sleep well tonight. if there is to
be an On The Road movie, then
let
>
Chris Isaak play Sal, he looks so much like Kerouac and he has always
>
reminded me of a handsome actor out of the 1940s and '50s. he does act,
he
>
isnt just a singer. if not him, then
Depp.
Please say that you are joking... I have seen Chris Isaak in an acting
role
and I would not call him an actor. He
is a songwriter that got an
acting
bug up his ass. Not an actor by any
stretch of the imagination.
I'd
rather have a great actor play a character than someone that was picked
just
because they looked like the person they were portraying. Thinking of
it... Isaak doesn't even look a thing like
Kerouac. Kerouac was dark,
Isaak
is fair, more like Cassady
As for Stipe playing either role, I
really cannot say. I have never seen
him act
(MTV doesn't count). I would rather see
someone with loads of
talent
play a role. Too bad most of the really
good actors are too old.
Although
there are some promising actors coming around.
And a lot of the
actors
that are getting older can still pull it off and play a college age
role
for the beginning. I think that Depp is
great. So is Robert Downey
Jr. As for Nicolas Cage (Someone mentioned him
earlier) I really don't
know. I know he gets good roles, but he is pretty
much the same in those
roles... He is good, but not great.
Oh well... That was my monthly posting.
I think I'd be more interrested in
seeing what woman were picked for the
roles.
Carolyn Cassady - Eva Habermann ( I just like looking at her, who cares
if she
can act
{yes, call me a hipocrite,
but I really like this woman})
Joan Burroughs - Claire Forlani (Good
Actress and a beautiful woman.)
??? - Samantha Mathis (Who cares who
they make her, as long as she don't
sing)
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net |
web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat
]
|"A
free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular."
|
|
-- Adlai Stevenson
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Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 01:31:22 -0400
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From: "Hipster Beat Poet."
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: beat generation movie
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taking
notes from Ted Morgan's books and Anne Charter's info..someone
like
david lynch or copolla would make a great beat generation movie.
here is
a sample list of recomendations for actors/actresses.
william
burroughs= tim roth or steve buscemi
joan
vollermer= elizabeth shue
jack
kerouac (later years)= Al Pacino
allen
ginsberg= jeff goldblume
neal
cassady= sean penn
gregory
corso= andy garcia
lawrence
ferlinghetti= sean connery
well
just a sample...looking forward to comments and criticisms.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 00:13:42 -0700
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From: James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject:
Re: Coppola
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>I
agree Penn is too old. Is Coppolla
still in control
>of
this movie. I don't think this is his
kind of material.
>
>Mike
Rice
>
Haven't you heard? Tentative titles being batted around are _On The Run_
and _On
The Rice Paddy_.
_On the Run_ is a conspiracy flick (big
surprise). The whole movie
(expected
to run about four and a half hours) is shot in the backseat of a
car. Neal and Jack have to skooch over to make
room for the crazy cats that
they
encounter during their adventure. Two
of these cats turn out to be the
real
killers of J.F.K. The movie ends with a
shot of the driver. He's
wearing
a C.I.A. cap. Tight shot of his hand
pressing the stop button on
his
hand held tape recorder. _On The Rice
Paddy_ would probably only run
three
hours (this is the route that the director is expected to take). Neal
and
Jack are fleeing the Vietcong after having been sent in on a suicide
mission
by (who else?) the C.I.A. when they get stuck in a rice paddy. The
last
two hours and forty five minutes of the movie would be scenes of Jack
and
Neal taking turns trying to get the car out of the muck.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 05:47:03 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Movies from books....
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At
07:56 PM 8/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Oh
ye of little faith! ....it could turn
out fine!
>
> What about "Sheltering Sky"
or "The English Patient"? ...or the
>movies
mentioned by Adrien and others? ...was
"Il Postino" a book first? If
>so,
it must have been dyn-o-mite by Matt and Paul's logic.
>
> Antoine
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in
Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
>
>
The
movie of the English Patient was an improvement on the book.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 06:52:48 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: John J Dorfner
<Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: jack kerouac
this
didn't seem to make it to Beat-L the first time I tryed to send it.
---------------------
Forwarded
message:
Subj: jack kerouac
Date: 97-08-27 21:35:26 EDT
From: Jjdorfner
To: BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu
Please allow me to introduce myself...my
name is John J Dorfner. I first
discovered
Jack Kerouac's writing in 1973, while living in Oregon, working
for a
book distributor. This was after
spending over a year hitch-hiking
around
the country after being discharged from the Navy. It was then that I
was
turned on to Ann Charter's book, Kerouac.
I made the first of many pilgrimages to
Lowell in 1976, upon returning to
my hometown
in upstate New York. I wanted to see
and experience the places
Kerouac
wrote about in his books. I knew this
was something that had to be
done. No question. I had to know if the reality of Lowell would move me as
much as
Kerouac's writing did.
I spent the years from 1976-1983
periodically traveling to Lowell, working
on
notes for a book and starting a family.
After we moved to Raleigh, North
Carolina
in June of 1983 and settled into our new home, I drove out to Rocky
Mount. Luckily it was only 50 miles to the east.
In Rocky Mount I stood in the front yard of
the house where Neal found
Jack
that Christmas of 1948. Jack called the
town "Testament, Virginia," in O
n the
Road. I suddenly realized that the
Kerouac/Cassady Road Odyssey began
right
where I was standing. That is a feeling
words can't describe. All I
can say
is "what a rush!"
The research I was able to compile in my
visits there became very
important
to me, as well as to many others. The
local country folks who knew
Kerouac
and his family, who I was able to interview, have become my friends.
These friendships, along with the foreword
the late Allen Ginsberg composed
for my
Lowell book, are things I will always cherish.
Talking about the book, On the Road, is
great, discussing it with friends
even
better. But there is nothing that beats
the experience of going out on
the
road, to the places where Kerouac lived, wrote and loved.
Gathering the thoughts and photographs that
came about from my
pilgrimages,
I wrote a couple of books about Kerouac's life and times in
Lowell
and Rocky Mount, which are available in bookstores. If you'd like to
know
more about these titles, I have blurbs listed at Bookzen. Go to:
http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604643b.html
or
http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604678b.html
or
check out my homepage at
http://members.aol.com/AngelMindz/index.html
I'll be in Lowell for the Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Festival, the first
week of
October. I'll be signing my books at
the Small Press Book Fair at
Memorial
Hall, Pollard Library on Saturday, October 4th from 10 a.m. to 4
p.m. I'd love to meet any and all Beat-L people
who are going to be there.
Please come by and say hello. There will be quite a few great Kerouac
publications
to check out.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:15:12 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Fwd: jack kerouac
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At
06:52 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>this
didn't seem to make it to Beat-L the first time I tryed to send it.
>---------------------
>Forwarded
message:
>Subj: jack kerouac
>Date: 97-08-27 21:35:26 EDT
>From: Jjdorfner
>To: BEAT-L@cunyvm.cuny.edu
>
>
>
> Please allow me to introduce myself...my
name is John J Dorfner. I first
>discovered
Jack Kerouac's writing in 1973, while living in Oregon, working
>for
a book distributor. This was after
spending over a year hitch-hiking
>around
the country after being discharged from the Navy. It was then that I
>was
turned on to Ann Charter's book, Kerouac.
> I made the first of many pilgrimages to
Lowell in 1976, upon returning to
>my
hometown in upstate New York. I wanted
to see and experience the places
>Kerouac
wrote about in his books. I knew this
was something that had to be
>done. No question. I had to know if the reality of Lowell would move me as
>much
as Kerouac's writing did.
> I spent the years from 1976-1983
periodically traveling to Lowell, working
>on
notes for a book and starting a family.
After we moved to Raleigh, North
>Carolina
in June of 1983 and settled into our new home, I drove out to Rocky
>Mount. Luckily it was only 50 miles to the east.
> In Rocky Mount I stood in the front yard of
the house where Neal found
>Jack
that Christmas of 1948. Jack called the
town "Testament, Virginia," in O
>n
the Road. I suddenly realized that the
Kerouac/Cassady Road Odyssey began
>right
where I was standing. That is a feeling
words can't describe. All I
>can
say is "what a rush!"
> The research I was able to compile in my
visits there became very
>important
to me, as well as to many others. The
local country folks who knew
>Kerouac
and his family, who I was able to interview, have become my friends.
>
These friendships, along with the foreword the late Allen Ginsberg composed
>for
my Lowell book, are things I will always cherish.
> Talking about the book, On the Road, is
great, discussing it with friends
>even
better. But there is nothing that beats
the experience of going out on
>the
road, to the places where Kerouac lived, wrote and loved.
> Gathering the thoughts and photographs that
came about from my
>pilgrimages,
I wrote a couple of books about Kerouac's life and times in
>Lowell
and Rocky Mount, which are available in bookstores. If you'd like to
>know
more about these titles, I have blurbs listed at Bookzen. Go to:
>http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604643b.html
or
>http://wwwbookzen.com/books/-0963604678b.html
>
>or
check out my homepage at
>http://members.aol.com/AngelMindz/index.html
>
> I'll be in Lowell for the Lowell Celebrates
Kerouac!, Festival, the first
>week
of October. I'll be signing my books at
the Small Press Book Fair at
>Memorial
Hall, Pollard Library on Saturday, October 4th from 10 a.m. to 4
>p.m. I'd love to meet any and all Beat-L people
who are going to be there.
>
Please come by and say hello. There
will be quite a few great Kerouac
>publications
to check out.
>
>
Yes it
did make it. I'm looking at this whale
for the second time.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:29:12 +0200
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: THE KINGFISHERS a Charles Olson's poem
(Re: Beats.)
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.LNX.3.95.970827181212.8487J-100000@devel.nacs.net>
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THE KINGFISHERS by Charles Olson
1
What
does not change / is the will to change
He
woke, fully clothed, in his bed. He
remembered
only one thing, the birds, how
when he
came in, he had gone around the rooms
and got
them back in their cage, the green one first,
she
with the bad leg, and then the blue,
the one
they had hoped was a male
Otherwise?
Yes, Fernand, who had talked lispingly of Albert &
Angkor
Vat.
He had
left the party without a word. How he got up, got into his
coat,
I do
not know. When I saw him, he was at the door, but it did not
matter,
he was
already sliding along the wall of the night, losing himself
in some
crack of the ruins. That it should have been he who said
"The
Kingfishers!
who
cares
for
their feathers
now?"
His
last words had been, "The pool is slime." Suddenly everyone,
ceasing
their talk, sat in a row around him, watched
they
did not so much hear, or pay attention, they
wondered,
looked at each other, smirked, but listened,
he
repeated and repeated, could not go beyond his thought
"The
pool the kingfishers' feathers
were wealth why
did the
export stop?"
It was
then he left
2
I
thought of the E on the stone, and of what Mao said
la
lumiere"
but the kingfisher
de
l'aurore"
but the kingfisher flew west
est
devant nous!
he got the color of his breast
from the heat of the setting sun!
The
features are, the feebleness of the feet (syndactylism of the 3rd
& 4th digit)
the
bill, serrated, sometimes a pronunced beak, the wings
where
the color is, short and round, the tail
inconspicuous.
But not
these things were the factors. Not the birds.
The
legends are
legends.
Dead, hung up indoors, the kingfisher
will
not indicate a favoring wind,
or
avert the thunderbolt. Nor, by its nesting,
still
the waters, with the new year., for seven days.
It is
true, it does nest with the opening year, but not on the waters.
It
nests at the end of a tunnel bored by itself in a bank. There,
six or
eight white and translucent eggs are laid, on fishbones
not on
bare clay, on bones thrown up in pellets by the birds.
On these rejectamenta
(as
they accumulate they form a cup-shaped structure) the young
are born.
And, as
they are fed and grow, this nest of excrement and decayed
fish becomes
a
dripping, fetid mass
Mao
concluded:
nous devons
nous lever
et agir!
3
When
the attentions change / the jungle
leaps
in
even the stones are split
they
rive
Or,
enter
that
other conqueror we more naturally recognize
he so
resembles ourselves
But the
E
cut so
rudely on that oldest stone
sounded
otherwise,
was
differently heard
as, in
another time, were treasures used:
(and,
later, much later, a fine ear thought
a
scarlet coat)
"of green feathers feet, beaks and eyes
of gold
"animal likewise,
resembling snails
"a large wheel, gold, with
figures of unknown four-foots,
and worked with tufts of leaves,
weight
3800 ounces
"last, two birds, of thread and
featherwork, the quills
gold, the feet
gold, the two birds perched on two
reeds
gold, the reeds arising from two
embroidered mounds,
one yellow, the other
white.
"And from each reed hung
seven feathered tassels.
In this
instance, the priests
(in
dark cotton robes, and dirty,
their
dishvelled hair matted with blood, and flowing wildly
over
their shoulders)
rush in
among the people, calling on them
to protect
their gods
And all
now is war
where
so lately there was peace.
and the
sweet brotherhood, the use
of
tilled fields.
Not one
death but many,
not
accumulation but change, the feed-back proves, the feed-back is
the law
Into the same river no man steps twice
When fire dies air dies
No one remains, nor is, one
Around
an appearance, one common model, we grow up
many.
Else how is it,
if we
remain the same,
we take
pleasure now
in what
we did not take pleasure before? love
contrary
objects? admire and/for find fault? use
other
words, feel another passions, have
nor
figure, appearance, disposition, tissue
the
same?
To be in different states without a
change
is not a possibility
We can
be precise. The factors are
in the
animal and/or the machine the factors are
communication
and/or control, both involve
the
message. And what is the message? The message is
a
discrete or continuous sequence of measurable events distributed
in time
is the
birth of air, is
the
birth of water, is
a state
between
the
origin and
the
end, between
birth
and the beginning of
another
fetid nest
is
change, presents
no more
than itself
And the
too strong grasping of it,
when it
is pressed together and condensed,
loses
it
This
very thing you are
II
They buried their dead in a sitting
posture
serpent cane razor ray of the sun
And she sprinkled water on the head of
the child, crying
"Cioa-coatl! Cioa-coatl!"
with her face to the west
Where the bones are found, in each
personal heap
with what each enjoyed, there is
always
the Mongolian louse
The
light is in the east. Yes. And we must rise, act. Yet
in the
west, despite the apparent darkness (the whiteness
which
covers all), if you look, if you can bear, if you can, long enough
as long as it was necessary for him,
my guide
to look into the yellow of the
longest-lasting rose
so you
must, and, in that whiteness, into that face, with what candor,
look
and,
considering the dryness of the place
the long absence of an adequate race
(of the two who first came, each a
conquistador, one healed,
the other
tore the eastern idols down, toppled
the temple walls, which, says the
excuser
were black from human gore)
hear
hear,
where the dry blood talks
where the old appetite walks
la piu' saporita et migliore
che si possa truovar al mondo
where
it hides, look
in the
eye how it runs
in the
flesh / chalk
but under
these petals
in the emptiness
regard the
light, contemplate
the flower
whence
it arose
with what violence benevolence is
bought
what cost in gesture justice brings
what wrongs domestic rights involve
what stalks
this silence
what pudor pejorocracy affronts
how awe, night-rest and neighborhood
can rot
what breeds where dirtiness is law
what crawls
below
III
I am no
Greek, hath not th'advantage.
And of
course, no Roman:
he can
take no risk that matters,
the
risk of beauty least of all.
But I
have my kin, if for no other reason than
(as he
said, next of kin) I commit myself, and,
given
my freedom, I'd be a cad
if I
didn't. Which is most true.
It
works out this way, despite the disadvantage.
i
offer, in explanation, a quote:
si j'ai
du gout, ce n'est gueres
que
pour la terre et les pierres
Despite
the discrepancy (an ocean courage age)
this is
also true: if I have any taste
it is
only because I have interested myself
in what
was slain in the sun
I pose you your question:
shall
you uncover honey / where maggots are?
I hunt among stones
=========================================
Michael
Stutz wrote:
>On
Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>>
Charles Olson [Black Mountain School]
>
>I
confess, I never understood his poetry. I don't know how to read it.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:32:40 +0200
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: a Jack Kerouac's poem dated 1970.
In-Reply-To: <3404DC4A.19C0@sunflower.com>
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Patricia,
i think
the poem is the great poet Jack Kerouac's last word/message,
un
grande ciao da
Rinaldo.
*
"In
sooth I know not why I am so sad."
--- The
Merchant Of Venice, William Shakespeare.
*
Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>>
>> To Edward Dahlberg by Jack Kerouac
>>
>> Don't use the telephone.
>> People are never ready to answer it.
>> Use poetry.
>>
>> 1970
>>
>>
from "Scattered poems",
>> 1970, 1971 (c) The Estate of Jack
Kerouac.
>Rinaldo,
>thank
you. i appreciate you sharing the source. ciao
>p
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:18:11 +0200
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Il Postino (Re: Movies from books....)
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997082719564436@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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Antoine,
the
author Antonio Skarmeta wrote the book "Ardente paciencia"
in
1985, from the good book derives the good film
"Il
postino" directed by Michael Radford in 1994,
Massimo Troisi (1953-1994) in his last
film presence,
everyone mourned his death.
cari
saluti da
Rinaldo.
Antoine
Maloney wrote:
>Oh
ye of little faith! ....it could turn
out fine!
>
> What about "Sheltering Sky"
or "The English Patient"? ...or the
>movies
mentioned by Adrien and others? ...was
"Il Postino" a book first? If
>so,
it must have been dyn-o-mite by Matt and Paul's logic.
>
> Antoine
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in
Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:55:23 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: [2] OTR movie: music?
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Sounds good, but who to direct?
Oliver
Stone used similar effects in
Natural
Born Killers. Tarantino might
put an
interesting spin on it, since he
has a
healthy respect for anything retro.
Spielberg
if you want to see Jack and Neal's car levitate off the
road/cut
to a
shot of
it silhouetted against the moon.
Kubrick,
but how long would that take?
_C'mon
Friday_,
Chimera
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:23:51 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Some of Dharma and Life
In-Reply-To: <199708272353.QAA10617@hsc.usc.edu>
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>
>
Has anyone actually seen it in a bookstore (I know some have received
>
advance copies).
>
In fact
I just got it last night at Barnes & Noble (68th St and Broadway
location)...its
a beautiful book, that at first glance seems to provide a
profound,
complex glimpse inside the mind and soul of Jack Kerouac. Any
serious
student of Kerouac and Beats must have this book. I love the
cover
artwork too...and the sentimental dedication to Ginsberg, for whom
the
book was actually written as correspondence.
B&N
also had the 40th anniversary OTR but that was a disappointment.
They
should have reproduced the original cover and put in some annotation
and a
scholarly forward or two, plus pictures.
Instead a cheap new cover
of a
40'sish car riding down a street?
Disappointing!
(query: The jacket sleeve has a pic of Kerouac
holding a first edition
OTR...what
is in the small pic on the cover? Is it
a pic of Jack and Neal?)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:28:51 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: OTR film
Comments:
To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <3404ED71.788F@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version:
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>
>
>
> The movie would be narrated of course, with the closing paragraph of the
>
> book narrarated over the shot of Neal walking away down the railroad
tracks.
>
>
>
> RJW
>
>
> To
which you could add shots of the bloated miserable looking old Jack
> if
you want to really push a moral perspective.
>
You
dont understand, the point would be to show that Neal was a man who
died
the way he lived, that he found mystery and joy even in the most
mundane
things...the beat ethic of seeing what is spiritual in
everything. A final shot of Neal walking down the
tracks, years after
OTR,
older, grayer but still beat...it would fit.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 07:57:44 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Ginsberg's Children (was: Beats)
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Too bad
Ginsberg didn't have any kids.
He did, tens of hundreds of
thousands. They tramped the ground in
Goa, Max Yasgur's Farm, the Haight, the
Village, communes from Maine
to California to Tierra Del Fuego to
Point Barrow and well beyond.
Allen's kids roamed the streets of the
Yucatan after him, babbling,
the children of Quechan. Allen's kids cried when the Tet
"truce" was
broken..both here and there. Allen's kids live in Peoria and
Dharmasala, Fort Lauderdale and
Vladivostok, from the Korean Peninsula
to your back yard.
I am one of Allen's kids, you might be
too.
love and lilies,
matt h.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:05:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Salvaging a poorly recorded interview
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With
the frequent mention of Bob Dylan onthe list I thought there might be
interest
in the following item and the technology that saved the day for a
free-lance
writer.
>I
received a frantic call this morning from a friend in Toronto who is a
>freelance
music journalist. He had been up most of the night trying to
>salvage
one of the most important stories in his career. It seems that
>after
requesting an interview several weeks ago with Bob Dylan (who makes
>it
a habit of NOT granting interviews), he received an unexpected call
>from
Bob, himself on Thursday evening. Being somewhat unprepared, he
>quickly
turned on his microcassette and held it up to the receiver to
>begin
recording his surprise half-hour telephone interview.
>
>Unfortunately,
upon listening back to his tape, he found that he was only
>able
to hear about 20 per cent of the conversation. His dilemma was how
>to
extract a usable interview from the excessive background noise
>introduced
by the microcassette and a noisy long distance phone line.
>
>Enter
Macintosh. I loaded his tape into Macromedia Deck 2.6 and proceeded
>to
reconstruct his interview line by line. The majority of Dylan's dialog
>was
almost entirely buried in background noise but with careful use of
>normalizing
and equalization I was able to deliver a cassette that was
>about
95 percent legible (not an easy feat with Bob's dialog). The story
>will
now go to print later this week thanks to Macintosh.
>
>Don
Nicklin
>RadioActive
Media
><http://www.radioactive-media.com>
>
j grant
Small
Press Authors and Publishers display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:37:07 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Some of Dharma and Life
In a
message dated 97-08-28 00:57:19 EDT, you write:
<<
Has anyone actually seen it in a bookstore (I know some have received
advance copies).
>>
Some of
the Dharma is out...
$32.95
list price
$29.95
here
at
Water Row Books
Jeffrey
Water
Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:46:53 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Some of Dharma and Life
In-Reply-To: <199708272353.QAA10617@hsc.usc.edu>
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On Wed,
27 Aug 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
The commentary is by Ken Kesey quoting him about how Kerouac never put
>
anyone down in all of his writing.
Maybe
this part of why he couldn't get along with the hippies in the 60s.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:16:36 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg's Children (was: Beats)
In-Reply-To: <4058A370.@usoc.org> from "MATT
HANNAN" at Aug 28, 97 07:57:44 am
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>
>
Too bad Ginsberg didn't have any kids.
>
> He did, tens of hundreds of
thousands. They tramped the ground in
> Goa, Max Yasgur's Farm, the Haight, the
Village, communes from Maine
> to California to Tierra Del Fuego to
Point Barrow and well beyond.
> Allen's kids roamed the streets of the
Yucatan after him, babbling,
> the children of Quechan. Allen's kids cried when the Tet
"truce" was
> broken..both here and there. Allen's kids live in Peoria and
> Dharmasala, Fort Lauderdale and
Vladivostok, from the Korean Peninsula
> to your back yard.
>
> I am one of Allen's kids, you might be
too.
>
> love and lilies,
>
> matt h.
I think
I missed the original thread that inspired this posting. You
might
want to check out Norman Podhoretz's "My War With Allen Ginsberg,"
in the
August 1997 *Commentary*. Despite
Podhoretz's occasional turgid
whining--his
lament that the children of the postwar boom "refus[ed] to
take
their appointed places in the world" (and his sneaky attack on
former
Watergate special prosecutor Archibald Cox) [p. 38]--despite
Podhoretz's
flaws, the article is an honest portrayal of his side of his
feud
with Ginsberg.
Why
would I bring up the article in connection with Matt's posting?
Much of
the final half of Podhoretz's article is framed by an idea that
he only
explicitly states in the final paragraph (p. 40). In this final
paragraph,
he declares that Ginsberg ultimately was "magnanimous in
victory"
over Podhoretz. But on the subject of
Ginsberg's magnanimity, he
adds: "I still cannot bring myself to forgive
*him*, not even now that he
is
dead."
Victory? In what context? Forgive Ginsberg . . . for what?
The
major narrative thread in Podhoretz's essay centers on the famous
1958
meeting of Ginsberg, Kerouac, and Podhoretz in Ginsberg's
apartment. As the evening fitfully ended, and after
Ginsberg failed to
convince
Podhoretz to give up his war against the growing counter-culture,
Ginsberg
yelled, "We'll get you through your children!"
Podhoretz's
lament in this essay is that he lost the culture war--that
Ginsberg
"got" Podhoretz "through [his] children."
In an
eerie, medicalized metaphor (eerie in light of Podhoretz's
emphasis
on HIV when he suggests that Ginsberg's "beatification of
homosexuality"
and "glorification of insanity" are reinforcing
pathologies),
Podoretz suggests that Ginsberg's side won the culture
war by
spreading a "spiritual plague" that indeed has grown "through
[the]
children."
Plague? Hardly, I'd say, when many conversations on
BEAT-L assume a healthy
skepticism
toward the established cultural norms that Podhoretz defends
as
"good health." And did
Ginsberg really "win" the war Podhoretz
describes? I'm not going to touch this one--in this era
when, among
other
things, Newt Gingrich extols advertisers to monitor and censor the
content
of newspaper and magazine articles. But
seeing Podhoretz's
baleful
white flag infused me with the same optimism I get from, say,
Howard
Zinn.
The
Podhoretz article is worth reading.
Maybe it's on the Web. Thanks
to Tara
from my summer poetry class for pointing me toward it. I wanted
to
bring it into BEAT-L earlier, but then became too busy.
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:03:48 -0400
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From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: [2] OTR movie: music?
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On Thu,
28 Aug 1997, Eric Blanco wrote:
> Sounds good, but who to direct?
I would
actually like to see it done by Richard Linklatter, the guy who did
_Slacker_.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:20:12 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jennifer Thompson
<thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Movies from books....
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997082719564436@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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On Wed,
27 Aug 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:
> Oh
ye of little faith! ....it could turn
out fine!
>
> What about "Sheltering Sky"
or "The English Patient"? ...or the
>
movies mentioned by Adrien and others?
...was "Il Postino" a book first? If
>
so, it must have been dyn-o-mite by Matt and Paul's logic.
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who
doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
>
yes. .
.but the alternative? a piece of art turned to trash?
jenn
thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:26:08 -0400
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From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: New! HERBERT HUNCKE READER
Ready
to ship next week...
The new
Herbert Huncke Reader. Edited by Ben Schafer. William Morrow.
Hardcover.
This
great treasury contains the highly sought-after scarce "Huncke's
Journal"
(1966), The autobiographical "The Evening Sun Turned Crimson,"
Guilty
of Everything excerpt, 50-60 pages of previously uncollected work by
Huncke
and more, as well as 16 page photo insert. Also a foreword by William
S.
Burroughs.
List
price: $24.00
Water
Row price: $19.00
Master
Card & Visa accepted.
Shipping
extra. Satisfaction guaranteed.
Thanks -
Jeffrey
Water
Row Books
PO Box
438
Sudbury
MA 01776
tel
508-485-8515
fax
508-229-0885
email
waterrow@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:13:58 -0400
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Source of Quote
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Someone set me straight; the following
quote was either Ginsberg to
Kerouac or Kerouac to Ginsberg (I'm
thinking the latter but I can't
find my reference, someday when my
daughter is older I'm going to
write the monster Beat database):
"I'm not anti anything, I don't have
time for your negativity".
Help me out gang,
love and lilies,
matt h.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:43:41 -0500
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From: Richard Schlimm
<rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe:
Dean
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At
12:11 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
i can sleep well tonight. if there is
to be an On The Road movie, then
>let
>>
Chris Isaak play Sal, he looks so much like Kerouac and he has always
>>
reminded me of a handsome actor out of the 1940s and '50s. he does act,
>he
>>
isnt just a singer. if not him, then
Depp.
>
> Please say that you are joking... I have seen Chris Isaak in an acting
>role
and I would not call him an actor. He
is a songwriter that got an
>acting
bug up his ass. Not an actor by any
stretch of the imagination.
>I'd
rather have a great actor play a character than someone that was picked
>just
because they looked like the person they were portraying. Thinking of
>it... Isaak doesn't even look a thing like
Kerouac. Kerouac was dark,
>Isaak
is fair, more like Cassady
>
> As for Stipe playing either role, I
really cannot say. I have
never
seen
>him
act (MTV doesn't count). I would rather
see someone with loads of
>talent
play a role. Too bad most of the really
good actors are too old.
>Although
there are some promising actors coming around.
And a lot of the
>actors
that are getting older can still pull it off and play a college age
>role
for the beginning. I think that Depp is
great. So is Robert Downey
>Jr. As for Nicolas Cage (Someone mentioned him
earlier) I really don't
>know. I know he gets good roles, but he is pretty
much the same in those
>roles... He is good, but not great.
>
o.k.
o.k. you're probably right. i only saw
Isaak act for 2 minutes as a
walk on
part in some stupid sitcom i dont even watch.
i hope you know you
just
bursted my bubble...cuz i still think he looks just like Kerouac-he can
always
dye his hair you know. i have never
seen Stipe act either but i
know he
has acted in a movie, not just MTV. all
i know is that i'd rather
have
Isaak than Nicholas Cage, or Sean Penn. Depp is the best suggestion ive
heard
so far. how about Vincent Gallo for
Dean-has anyone seen him with
short
hair? also Paul Hipp-watch The Funeral!
maybe there just shouldnt be
an OTR
movie. maybe we could fit Emily Watson
in as one of the woman
roles-she's
a great actress.
> Oh well... That was my monthly posting.
>
> I think I'd be more interrested in
seeing what woman were picked
for the
>roles.
>
> Carolyn Cassady - Eva Habermann ( I just like looking at her, who
cares
>if
she can act
> {yes, call me a hipocrite,
but I really like this woman})
> Joan Burroughs - Claire Forlani (Good
Actress and a beautiful woman.)
> ??? - Samantha Mathis (Who cares who
they make her, as long as she
don't
>sing)
>
> -Bill
>
>[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net |
web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat
]
>|"A
free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular."
>|
>|
-- Adlai Stevenson
>[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy
v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:49:40 -0600
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From: CARL PORTER <CPORTER@WEBER.EDU>
Subject: Source of Quote -Reply
Comments:
To: MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG
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I think
the quote was from Kerouac to Ed Sanders and delivered on the
talk
show "Firing Line" hosted by William F. Buckley. I think Ginsberg was
in the
audience so it may have been directed at him too--maybe only him.
carl
>>>
MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG> 08/28/97 09:13am
>>>
Someone set me straight; the following
quote was either Ginsberg to
Kerouac or Kerouac to Ginsberg (I'm
thinking the latter but I can't
find my reference, someday when my
daughter is older I'm going to
write the monster Beat database):
"I'm not anti anything, I don't have
time for your negativity".
Help me out gang,
love and lilies,
matt h.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:38:40 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: OTR movie: Nicholas Cage
In-Reply-To:
<199708281743.MAA103266@gomer.wiscnet.net>
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Wouldnt
surprise me if Cage got the Neal part...after all his real name
is
Nicholas Coppola (as in Francis Ford's nephew...a little nepotism
never
hurt anyone's career right?)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:59:49 -0400
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From: "P.A.Maher"
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly Page has been
update!
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We have
updated the Kerouac Quarterly web page and all of its links.
About
the Berg Collection, there is a message from John Sampas concerning
the
manuscripts that will be placed on deposit.
Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page4.html
Thanks
for reding! Paul of TKQ....
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:24:35 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Who's Who in Beat Lit...
Reply
to message from gallaher@hsc.usc.edu of Thu, 28 Aug
>
>Also
the killing of David Kammerer was written up in Vanity of Dulouz. I
>believe
also it was written up in the first beat generation book ever
>written,
And the Hippos Were Boiled in their Tanks, by Burroughs and
>Kerouac--a
book that has yet to be published if it ever will be.
>
>The
subway guy mentioned above was called Bill Canastra who I believe was
>called
Finistra in Go. I think he was climbing
out the window and was
>halfway
out when the train came to the tunnel.
>
>At
the end of On the Road when the woman calls down to Sal from the loft
>above,
that was Canastra's loft where Joan Haverty was living after his
>death. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe On the
Road was written there.
>
#1--Joan
Haverty was Bill Canastra's girlfriend at the time of his death,
was she
not?
#2--Lucien
really didn't like allusions being made to him in beat lit,
so I've
heard. Although they couldn't be
helped.
Diane.
(H)
--
"I
can't imagine how I ever thought my love might make a difference to him."
--Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_
Diane
M. Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:45:52 +0200
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Thursday Morning.
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look at the pony!
teardrops
misting my eyes
look at the pony!
in the morning
i will bring you
to the circus
look at
the pony!
but early in the dawn the circus has
gone
white grass on the
meadows
& tiny fog
you
haven't teardrops
happy childhood next year the circus
will be here
our limits
are only
technical matter
BUT
into
this supermarket aisle
i feel
suddenly old.
Rinaldo.
28th
aug 1997.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:33:35 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: jack kerouac
thanks
for info. aren't you the same guy who
thinks On the Road is the only
Kerouac
books?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:45:02 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: John J Dorfner
<Kirouack@AOL.COM>
Subject: sorry
i'm
very sorry about posting my message again.
this posting stuff is all new
to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:05:23 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thursday Morning.
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19970828224552.00686820@pop.gpnet.it>
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look at the pony!
rinaldo:
so happy to get this today. i have been thinking of ginsberg's
poem
'supermarket in california' i believe, and felt his presence when i
had to
go to store with waning store of monies: i wanted to shout: poems
for
pears, poems for peaches, poems for the life of us all. but instead i
bought
what i could afford and left.
i think
i've shoeveled thru the shit and no pony there.
but
then, here you come, with your wonder and all.
thanks
marie
(mc to most)
> teardrops
> misting my eyes
> look at the pony!
>
> in the morning
> i will bring you
> to the circus
>
> look at
the pony!
>
> but early in the dawn the circus has
gone
> white grass on the
meadows
> & tiny fog
>
>you
haven't teardrops
> happy childhood next year the circus
will be here
>
> our limits
> are only
> technical matter
> BUT
> into
> this supermarket aisle
> i feel
> suddenly old.
>
>
>Rinaldo.
>28th
aug 1997.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:08:29 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe:
Dean
Mime-Version:
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At
12:43 PM 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At
12:11 AM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
i can sleep well tonight. if there is
to be an On The Road movie, then
>>let
>>>
Chris Isaak play Sal, he looks so much like Kerouac and he has always
>>>
reminded me of a handsome actor out of the 1940s and '50s. he does act,
>>he
>>>
isnt just a singer. if not him, then
Depp.
>>
>> Please say that you are joking... I have seen Chris Isaak in an
acting
>>role
and I would not call him an actor. He
is a songwriter that got an
>>acting
bug up his ass. Not an actor by any
stretch of the imagination.
>>I'd
rather have a great actor play a character than someone that was picked
>>just
because they looked like the person they were portraying. Thinking of
>>it... Isaak doesn't even look a thing like
Kerouac. Kerouac was dark,
>>Isaak
is fair, more like Cassady
>>
>> As for Stipe playing either role, I
really cannot say. I have
>never
seen
>>him
act (MTV doesn't count). I would rather
see someone with loads of
>>talent
play a role. Too bad most of the really
good actors are too old.
>>Although
there are some promising actors coming around.
And a lot of the
>>actors
that are getting older can still pull it off and play a college age
>>role
for the beginning. I think that Depp is
great. So is Robert Downey
>>Jr. As for Nicolas Cage (Someone mentioned him
earlier) I really don't
>>know. I know he gets good roles, but he is pretty
much the same in those
>>roles... He is good, but not great.
>>
>o.k.
o.k. you're probably right. i only saw
Isaak act for 2 minutes as a
>walk
on part in some stupid sitcom i dont even watch. i hope you know you
>just
bursted my bubble...cuz i still think he looks just like Kerouac-he can
>always
dye his hair you know. i have never
seen Stipe act either but i
>know
he has acted in a movie, not just MTV.
all i know is that i'd rather
>have
Isaak than Nicholas Cage, or Sean Penn. Depp is the best suggestion ive
>heard
so far. how about Vincent Gallo for
Dean-has anyone seen him with
>short
hair? also Paul Hipp-watch The Funeral!
maybe there just shouldnt be
>an
OTR movie. maybe we could fit Emily
Watson in as one of the woman
>roles-she's
a great actress.
>
>
>> Oh well... That was my monthly posting.
>>
>> I think I'd be more interrested in
seeing what woman were picked
>for
the
>>roles.
>>
>> Carolyn Cassady - Eva Habermann ( I just like looking at her, who
>cares
>>if
she can act
>> {yes, call me a hipocrite,
but I really like this woman})
>> Joan Burroughs - Claire Forlani (Good
Actress and a beautiful woman.)
>> ??? - Samantha Mathis (Who cares who
they make her, as long as she
>don't
>>sing)
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>>[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net |
web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat
]
>>|"A
free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular."
>>|
>>|
-- Adlai Stevenson
>>[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy
v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Ever
since he stopped playing characters and started playing leads
in
rotten films, after scoring in Leaving Las Vegas, I've lost my
fondness
totally for Nicholas Cage. I don't see
him as a lead, and
don't
like Hollywood jamming him down my throat just because he got
the
Oscar. He's an edgy character actor who
has been ruined, and
I don't
want anything to do with him anymore. I
think Penn is too
strong
to play either role.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:27:10 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: sorry
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At
05:45 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>i'm
very sorry about posting my message again.
this posting stuff is all new
>to
me.
>
>
Don't
be sorry. Offending people is part of
the
fun of
being on the net.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:17:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "P.A.Maher"
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: New Stuff! Kerouac Cover of the month
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This
month starts the new addition to the Kerouac Quarterly web page.
Each
month we will feature a different scan of a paperback. we urge your
submissions!Our
frined Antoine Maloney submitted the first entry. Go check
it out
and thanks Antoine! regards to all!
Paul of TKQ....
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page5.html
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 19:20:29 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: sorry
MIME-Version:
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> At
05:45 PM 8/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>i'm very sorry about posting my message again. this posting stuff is all new
>
>to me.
>
>
>
>
>
Don't be sorry. Offending people is
part of the
>
fun of being on the net.
hey! i
think that's not very nice! you just got me so upset i'm going
to
signoff!!....
just
joking (;
>
Mike Rice
>
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:31:49 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: sorry
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John J
Dorfner wrote:
> i'm
very sorry about posting my message again.
this posting stuff is all new
> to
me.
John,
I
appreciate your position, i learned to set my subscription to include
my
posts because it helps me know if i or some server garbled the
message. I have usually regretted offending people
unless i have some
point
to make but this list is a rough and tumble one. I got blasted
because
I twitted someone for asking for help on some homework. I don't
actually
want to be a valuable resource that some professor can give his
earnest
student.
well,
your home page looked to much like an advertisement, tell me,
what
was the most interesting thing about meeting Jacks old friends.
what
surprised you.. when i went to lowell i didn't enter a bar that
didn't
have a pic of him there swigging.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:39:14 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Richard Schlimm
<rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET>
Subject: Kicks Joy Darkness
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where
can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides
ordering
it off the internet)? is it available
in some music stores? does
anyone
have it? is it any good?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:19:01 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Sum of the Dharma Bookstore story
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So I
was talking to you guys about finding Some of the Dharma. I figured
Barnes
and
Noble
should have it but i hadn't seen it anywhere in the store (or in
Supercrown
for
that
matter). So I called B&N.
Do you
have a book called Some of the Dharma?
Um
let's see...I don't see it...who's the author?
Jack
Kerouac. It's new just out.
Oh yes,
OK, but it's got a different name.
(So I'm
thinking somehow she's mixing it up with the 40th OTR edition)
She
says: It's called Some of the Dharma.
Isn't
that what I said?
I
thought you said sum of the dharma. Do
you want me to hold it for you?
(I say
where is it, she says in the literature section. I say no you don't
need to
hold a
copy I can find it. So I go there
later. I read an article in New
Republic
about
the Korean defector [not the two that defected the other day buty the
one
from
last
spring] and how he's being ignored in what he's saying by the press and
the
Clinton administration. They're
ignoring him because his info doesn't
jibe
with what the Clinton administration is saying about their progress
with N.
Korea and their overall
plans.
So I
finish that and there's about 15 minutes til the store closes. I go to
the
Kerouac
section and no book. They do have OTR
40th anniversary issue
though. So I
look
everywhere it might be. Biography,
eastern thought, new fiction, new
non-fiction
on the displays--no where. So finally I
decide to ask, but I
don't
see any workers
buzzing
about. "Buy your purchases"
says the PA. I see a worker. Ask her
if they
have Some of the Dharma.)
Let me
check. She goe to the computer. Types in Son of the Dharma (spells
dharma
right).
No,
Some of the Dharma.
Oh,
sorry, she types in Sum of the Dharma.
No no I
say, some s-o-m-e some
Oh. Types in Some of the Dharma. Yeah we have seven copies. I'll find it.
(So she
goes and looks in the Kerouac section.
Not there of course. And
then to
the
new
fiction, new non-fiction, everywhere i've been looking. Can't find it.
I
follow
her
around. Finally she asks another worker
at the front desk. This other
gal has
heard
of it. She knows it's a big book. She looks--where else, everywhere
we've
looked. Looks on the displays ect...finally she says
watch my register [to
the
other
worker,
not me] and I'll look in the back)
She
does finally come back with two copies and hands them to me.
I think
i just need one, I say.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:03:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Sum of the Dharma Bookstore story
Mime-Version:
1.0
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My
B&N and my library are like this, no one knows anything
about
books.
Mike
Rice
At
12:19 AM 8/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>So
I was talking to you guys about finding Some of the Dharma. I figured
>Barnes
and
>Noble
should have it but i hadn't seen it anywhere in the store (or in
>Supercrown
for
>that
matter). So I called B&N.
>
>Do
you have a book called Some of the Dharma?
>
>Um
let's see...I don't see it...who's the author?
>
>Jack
Kerouac. It's new just out.
>
>Oh
yes, OK, but it's got a different name.
>(So
I'm thinking somehow she's mixing it up with the 40th OTR edition)
>
>She
says: It's called Some of the Dharma.
>
>Isn't
that what I said?
>
>I
thought you said sum of the dharma. Do
you want me to hold it for you?
>
>(I
say where is it, she says in the literature section. I say no you don't
>need
to
>hold
a copy I can find it. So I go there
later. I read an article in New
>Republic
>about
the Korean defector [not the two that defected the other day buty the
>one
from
>last
spring] and how he's being ignored in what he's saying by the press and
>the
Clinton administration. They're
ignoring him because his info doesn't
>jibe
with what the Clinton administration is saying about their progress
>with
N. Korea and their overall
>plans.
>
>So
I finish that and there's about 15 minutes til the store closes. I go to
>the
>Kerouac
section and no book. They do have OTR
40th anniversary issue
>though. So I
>look
everywhere it might be. Biography,
eastern thought, new fiction, new
>non-fiction
on the displays--no where. So finally I
decide to ask, but I
>don't
see any workers
>buzzing
about. "Buy your purchases"
says the PA. I see a worker. Ask her
>if
they have Some of the Dharma.)
>
>Let
me check. She goe to the computer. Types in Son of the Dharma (spells
>dharma
>right).
>
>No,
Some of the Dharma.
>
>Oh,
sorry, she types in Sum of the Dharma.
>
>No
no I say, some s-o-m-e some
>
>Oh. Types in Some of the Dharma. Yeah we have seven copies. I'll find it.
>
>(So
she goes and looks in the Kerouac section.
Not there of course. And
>then
to the
>new
fiction, new non-fiction, everywhere i've been looking. Can't find it.
>I
follow
>her
around. Finally she asks another worker
at the front desk. This other
>gal
has
>heard
of it. She knows it's a big book. She looks--where else, everywhere
>we've
>looked. Looks on the displays ect...finally she says
watch my register [to
>the
other
>worker,
not me] and I'll look in the back)
>
>She
does finally come back with two copies and hands them to me.
>
>I
think i just need one, I say.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 05:56:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke Reader
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Will
this book be generally available in bookstores, or only by mail from
Water
& Row? Sounds like a treat!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:32:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kicks Joy Darkness
In-Reply-To:
<199708290339.WAA62246@gomer.wiscnet.net>
Mime-Version:
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>where
can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides
>ordering
it off the internet)? is it available
in some music stores? does
>anyone
have it? is it any good?
________________
as far
as i know, most music stores carry it.
overall,
it's an interesting if uneven performance.
, mike
stipe and john cale are wonderful,
and the
booklet was designed by a friend at rykodisc
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:58:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Some of the Dharma excerpt
In-Reply-To: <199708290719.AAA14245@hsc.usc.edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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If he
can be called meek who has no wishes...
Or
hiding who needs never be found...
Or
scared who never attacks...
Forgotten,
who watches up the night...
If he
can be called "He" who has no self, writes "one is all" on
every
wall...
"Literature"
is no longer necessary...teaching is left
JK,
Some of the Dharma
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:20:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Thompson <thomjj01@HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sum of the Dharma Bookstore story
In-Reply-To: <199708290719.AAA14245@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version:
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On Fri,
29 Aug 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> So
I was talking to you guys about finding Some of the Dharma. I figured
>
Barnes and
>
Noble should have it but i hadn't seen it anywhere in the store (or in
>
Supercrown for
>
that matter). So I called B&N.
>
> Do
you have a book called Some of the Dharma?
>
> Um
let's see...I don't see it...who's the author?
>
>
Jack Kerouac. It's new just out.
>
> Oh
yes, OK, but it's got a different name.
>
(So I'm thinking somehow she's mixing it up with the 40th OTR edition)
>
>
She says: It's called Some of the Dharma.
>
>
Isn't that what I said?
>
> I
thought you said sum of the dharma. Do
you want me to hold it for you?
>
> (I
say where is it, she says in the literature section. I say no you don't
>
need to
>
hold a copy I can find it. So I go
there later. I read an article in New
>
Republic
>
about the Korean defector [not the two that defected the other day buty the
>
one from
>
last spring] and how he's being ignored in what he's saying by the press and
>
the Clinton administration. They're
ignoring him because his info doesn't
>
jibe with what the Clinton administration is saying about their progress
>
with N. Korea and their overall
>
plans.
>
> So
I finish that and there's about 15 minutes til the store closes. I go to
>
the
>
Kerouac section and no book. They do
have OTR 40th anniversary issue
>
though. So I
>
look everywhere it might be. Biography,
eastern thought, new fiction, new
>
non-fiction on the displays--no where.
So finally I decide to ask, but I
>
don't see any workers
>
buzzing about. "Buy your
purchases" says the PA. I see a worker.
Ask her
> if
they have Some of the Dharma.)
>
>
Let me check. She goe to the
computer. Types in Son of the Dharma
(spells
>
dharma
>
right).
>
>
No, Some of the Dharma.
>
>
Oh, sorry, she types in Sum of the Dharma.
>
> No
no I say, some s-o-m-e some
>
>
Oh. Types in Some of the Dharma. Yeah we have seven copies. I'll find it.
>
>
(So she goes and looks in the Kerouac section.
Not there of course. And
>
then to the
>
new fiction, new non-fiction, everywhere i've been looking. Can't find it.
> I
follow
>
her around. Finally she asks another
worker at the front desk. This other
>
gal has
>
heard of it. She knows it's a big
book. She looks--where else, everywhere
>
we've
>
looked. Looks on the displays
ect...finally she says watch my register [to
>
the other
>
worker, not me] and I'll look in the back)
>
>
She does finally come back with two copies and hands them to me.
>
> I
think i just need one, I say.
>
this
sounds very much like similar experiences i've had with anything
bookstore/Kerouac
related. also, shouldn't a book as
precious as a
new-release
of Kerouac be difficult to find? makes
it all the more
special.
jenn
thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 10:51:45 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Kicks Joy Darkness
In-Reply-To:
<199708290339.WAA62246@gomer.wiscnet.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Richard Schlimm
<rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET> wrote:
>where
can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides
>ordering
it off the internet)? is it available
in some music stores? does
>anyone
have it? is it any good?
i got
mine at a bookstore in Oregon, but i'm sure a lot of music stores
carry
it now. after listening to it many times, i have to say i think it
was
worth the money. Ginsberg and another guy (who reads the last chorus)
reading
Brooklyn Bridge Blues is awesome. Hunter Thompson, L. Ferlingetti
and
Burroughs all sound great, and a lot of the rest of it is good, though
there
are some loser tracks on the disc.
leo
"Let
us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of
your
path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,
you may
present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly
will.
Ad astra per aspera." --Jack
Kerouac
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:39:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "L.W. Deal"
<RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe:
Dean
Y'know,
Kevin Spacey'd make an interesting Kerouac... He's a hell of an
actor...
Or perhaps, Gary Oldman -- hell, he's already been Beethoven, Sid
Vicious,
Joe Orton, a mulato gangsta, etc. etc.... As long as Keanu Reeves is
prohibited
from any more beat-inspired productions, I'll be a happy camper...
Kisses
& Starfishes from Seattle,
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 12:50:13 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "William N. Gay"
<wgay@ZOO.UVM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kicks Joy Darkness
In-Reply-To:
<199708290339.WAA62246@gomer.wiscnet.net>
MIME-Version:
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I
bought it locally (Vermont), and saw it everywhere in stores here to San
Diego
this summer. My problem was finding it on cassette, but that's
becoming
more the rule, unfortunately. Anyway, I like it, especially the
Morphine
cut which kicks it off, Lydia Lunch, WSB, HST and John Cale. The
packaging
is pretty nice, too.
On Thu,
28 Aug 1997, Richard Schlimm wrote:
>
where can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness (besides
>
ordering it off the internet)? is it
available in some music stores? does
>
anyone have it? is it any good?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 13:50:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James J Stavola
<JDSept@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: list of jazz albums
Music that was an influence on the
beats specificly Jack and Neal at
that
time would have to include the stuff that Parker and the bop guys were
doing
on the east coast and from their letters, when they were on the west
coast,
the sounds of Chet Baker.The improv of Parkers playing from night to
night
had an influence on the form of Jack's writing especially.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:59:31 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: list of jazz albums
In-Reply-To: <970829135003_1582249370@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
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On Fri,
29 Aug 1997, James J Stavola wrote:
>
The improv of Parkers playing from night to
>
night had an influence on the form of Jack's writing especially.
How
often did Jack see jazz shows, Parker et al, during this period?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:54:20 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rodney Lee Phillips
<philli31@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac Quarterly?
Content-Type:
text/plain
Hello--
I'm
looking for the name and address (both e-mail and snail-mail) of the folks
who
edit the Kerouac Quarterly.
Thanks,
Rod Phillips
philli31@pilot.msu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:42:44 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Jack's jazz listening...
Mime-Version:
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In
reply to Michael Stutz:
"How often did Jack see jazz
shows, Parker et al, during this period?"
...and
Ron Kovach:
"What's the story on the
recording 'Kerouac'?"
You have to recall that during the
late forties and right through to
the
fifties, live jazz in NYC was everywhere - and top calibre. From the
boigraphies
one would say that Jack was seeing lots of jazz out in the clubs
and
Parker whenever he could. That's probably true from his time at Horace
Mann in
the late thirties right through his "Subterraneans" period.
Off list Ron Kovach and I were talking
about the recording "Kerouac"
which
featured Charlie Christian and Dizzy Gillespie. It was recorded in
1941 I
think, and Thomas Owens (I think I previously referred to him as Owen
Thomas
when talking about his book "Bebop"), a musicologist out in
California
at El Camino College, described as one of the first examples of
someone
(Gillespie) reaching towards what would become bebop.
The story that Gerry Nicosi tells
about the name is that a friend of
Kerouac's
from Horace Mann, Seymour Wyse, introduced Jack to Jerry Newman,
who had
for years been taking his recording equipment into clubs in Harlem
to
record. It was Newman who suggested to Gillespie that he name one of his
arrangements
"Kerouac". Dizzy didn't know Jack, but liked the name better
than
"Ginsberg"! [Memory Babe by
Gerald Nicosi - pages 124-125; Grove Press
1983]
Newman's recordings from those and later years are still in hot
circulation.
I would enthusiastically recommend
recordings that feature any of
Parker's
small group playing from '43 through '48. You get great
combinations
of players and all the seminal bebop there was....Gillespie
playing
piano accompaniment, Slim Gaillard, Bud Powell, lots of Miles Davis,
Dodo
Marmarosa, Wardell Grey (..hey Preston!), Howard McGhee, Max Roach,
Tiny
Grimes and Don Byas.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 17:27:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "P.A.Maher"
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Quarterly?
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
02:54 PM 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello--
>
>I'm
looking for the name and address (both e-mail and snail-mail) of the folks
>who
edit the Kerouac Quarterly.
>
>Thanks,
>
> Rod Phillips
> philli31@pilot.msu.edu
>Go
to the web page:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:06:50 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beats. 30th aug 1997
Comments:
cc: dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu, walter.campbell@usa.net,
brooklyn@netcom.com
Mime-Version:
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--=====================_872885210==_
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Donald
Allen
---
Amari
Baraka (Leroi Jones)
---
Paul
Blackburn
---
Robin
Blaser
---
Bonnie
Bremser
---
Ray
Bremser
---
Chandler
Brossard
---
Charles
Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"
---
William
S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,
Frank Carmody,
Will Dennison,
Old
Bull Lee"
---
William
S. Burroughs Jr.
---
John
Cage {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black
Mountain School]
---
Caleb
Carr
---
Lucien
Carr
---
Paul
Carroll
---
Louis R
Cartwright
---
Carolyn
Cassady
---
Neal
Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"
---
Tom
Clark [Paris Review]
---
Andy
Clausen
---
Gregory
Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"
---
Robert
Creeley [Black Mountain School]
---
Henry
Cru "Remi Boncoeur"
---
Diane
DiPrima
---
John
Doe
---
Kirby
Doyle
---
Robert
Duncan [Black Mountain School]
---
Bob
Dylan
---
William
Everson (Brother Antonus)
---
Richard
Farina
---
Lawrence
Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]
"Lorenzo Monsanto,
Larry O'Hara
Danny
Richman"
---
Charles
Foster
---
Allen
Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand
Alvah
Goldbook, Leon Levinsky
Carlo
Marx"
---
John
Giorno
---
Morris
Graves
---
Brion
Gysin
---
William
Inge
---
Wally
Hedrick [Gallery Six]
---
John
Cellon Holmes
---
Herbert
Huncke
---
Ted
Joans
---
Joyce
Johnson
---
Lenore
Kandel
---
Bob
Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }
---
Jack
Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,
Leo
Percepied, Ray Smith,
Jack, Peter
Martin,
Sal
Paradise"
---
Jan
Kerouac
---
Ken
Kesey
---
Franz
Kline
---
Seymour
Krim
---
Tuli Kupferberg
---
Joanne
Kyger
---
Philip
Lamantia
---
Jay
Landesman
---
Fran
Landesman
---
James
Laughlin
---
Timothy
Leary
---
Lawrence
Lipton
---
Malcom
Lowry
---
Norman
Mailer
---
Gerard
Malanga
---
Edward
Marshall
---
Peter
Martin
---
Lewis
McAdams
---
Joanna
McClure
---
Michael
McClure
---
Taylor
Mead
---
David
Meltzer
---
Jack
Micheline
---
Henry
Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }
---
John
Montgomery
---
Shigeyoshi
(Shig) Murao
---
Harold
Norse
---
Frank
O'Hara
---
Charles
Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]
---
Peter
Orlovsky
---
Kenneth
Patchen
---
Thomas
Parkinson
---
Nancy
Peters
---
Stuart
Z. Perkoff
---
Charles
Plymell
---
Dan
Propper
---
Kenneth
Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]
---
Theodore
Roethke
---
Hugh
Romney
---
Michael
Rumaker
---
Ed
Sanders
---
Mark
Schorer
---
Hubert
Jr. Selby
---
Gary
Snyder
---
Carl
Solomon
---
Jack
Spicer
---
Hunter
Stockton Thompson
---
Charles
Upton
---
Janine
Pommy Vega
---
Mark
Tobey
---
Alexander
Trocchi
---
Anne
Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]
---
Lewis
Warsh
---
Alan W.
Watts
---
Lew
Welch
---
Philip
Whalen
---
John
Wieners
---
William
Carlos Williams
---
Ruth
Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]
-*-
Hello!,
i'm
listing the beat generation
(writers
& painters & performers)
& i
begin with a list, everyone
interested
can propose a new name.
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
thanks,
Rinaldo
Rasa.
30th
august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.
-*-
the
list of credits & comments:
Walter
Campbell
<walter.campbell@usa.net>
Timothy
K. Gallaher
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Richard
M. Kershenbaum
<r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>
OHearn <orpheus@in.the.shadows>
David
Schwarm
<dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>
Michael
Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
-*-
addendum:
Return-Path:
<dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>
Date:
Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:22:59 -0700 (PDT)
From:
David Schwarm <dschwarm@sun1.lib.uci.edu>
To:
Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>
Subject:
Re: Beats.
Hi,
Thanks
for the update. I have used your list
to start my own little
spreadsheet
(with dates and famous works), please feel free to use this as
you see
fit (it is a WIN3.1 MS Excel file - let me know if you need a
different
format).
David
Schwarm Making jazz
swing in
41
Southbrook Seventeen
syllables AIN'T
Irvine,
CA 92604 No square poet's job.
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
--=====================_872885210==_
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--=====================_872885210==_--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:01:30 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Men Of The Mountains.(Beats)
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
friends,
let me
quote Walter Campbell:
"Maybe
Snyder gets short-changed because
of his
"man of the mountains" persona.
That's one
of the many paradoxes of the Beat movement: the
urban,
erudite east-coast leg of the Beat movement seems antithetical
to the
laid-back, naturalistic bent of the California clan."
saluti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:49:52 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: list of jazz albums
On 8/29/97 Miichael Stutz asked how
Jack might have seen Charlie
Parker's
playing and the possible influence it might have had on his writing.
When the beats were hanging around
Columbia and Times Square would be
at the
same time Parker was at his peak and also playing the jazz clubs on
52nd
St. alot. I've read that there are
tapes of Ginsberg and Kerouac
reading
with Parker in the background though I've never been able to verify
it.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:31:59 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: happy birthday, bird
Before
the day is out and all this discussion moves away from Charley Parker,
I just
want to say today is Bird's birthday... so get out your old scratched
up
vinyl and listen to this genius.
For
everyone in the Seattle area, this is Bumbershoot weekend... the annual
rain
festival (with hilariously faux-pagan roots... a long story). On
Saturday
at the Seattle Center there will be many hours devoted to a program
called
the Bebop Revival.
On that
same note, a bit of historical trivia (so trivial you'll probably
wonder
why I even mentioned it): Don Lanphere, from Wenatchee, Washington
(where
I used to live... insert joke here), was a child prodigy on the sax in
the 30s
and 40s. His dad owned Belmont Music Store (named after Belmont
Shores)
and was one of the earliest subscribers to Down Beat magazine, which
little
Don read from cover-to-cover and ordered 78s out of the listings in
the
back.
Don
ended up in New York, living with Charley's "woman" Chan on 52nd
Street
for a
while, and got into the same old habits all all the rest of them. He
ran
with Bird and Fats and everyone else, shared needles, did time, and was
responsible
for recording many of the tapes that came out of those years that
were
eventually made into the records of sessions and sold on various labels.
I met
Don when I was 13 (33 years ago), and he had toned down his heroin use
in
favor of alcohol and the drugs of the Sixties. In 1969, he had a religious
conversion
(the Jesus Freeks came to town and saved everyone they could get
their
hands on) and gave up jazz for a while, afraid it might have been part
of his
problems.
He
finally figured out it wasn't evil or sinful to be a jazz musician, and
went
back to his horn. He moved to Seattle a bunch of years ago and has a
Monday
morning radio show on KBCU, the college station out of Bellevue, where
he
carries on with Bud (god... i forgot bud's last name), proprietor of Bud's
Jazz Records
in Pioneer Square (just off Jackson Street, where jazz was born
and
lived in Seattle), playing bebop and all that other good stuff. He also
teaches,
travels, and still records one album a year.
Also,
Fats Navarro's daughter, Linda, who inherited her father's penchant for
junk,
lives in Seattle and has been profiled here in the media a coupla
times.
She still struggles with a heroin habit.
So, the
local NPR jazz affiliate is playing Bird all day, and tomorrow, bebop
at the
Seattle Center... man... what a weekend.
Happy
birthday, Bird.
diane
de rooy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:48:13 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: list of jazz albums
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Anybody
out there know the answer to James' question?
That would be a
gripping
Holy Grail to go after!
Antoine
************
> On 8/29/97 Miichael Stutz asked how
Jack might have seen Charlie
>Parker's
playing and the possible influence it might have had on his writing.
>
> When the beats were hanging around
Columbia and Times Square would be
>at
the same time Parker was at his peak and also playing the jazz clubs on
>52nd
St. alot. I've read that there are
tapes of Ginsberg and Kerouac
>reading
with Parker in the background though I've never been able to verify
>it.
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't
need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky
and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:14:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Schlimm
<rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe:
Dean
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
12:39 PM 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Y'know,
Kevin Spacey'd make an interesting Kerouac... He's a hell of an
>actor...
Or perhaps, Gary Oldman -- hell, he's already been Beethoven, Sid
>Vicious,
Joe Orton, a mulato gangsta, etc. etc.... As long as Keanu Reeves is
>prohibited
from any more beat-inspired productions, I'll be a happy camper...
>
>
>Kisses
& Starfishes from Seattle,
>
>LD
i love
Gary Oldman!!!!!! not to mention Dracula..he's the greatest actor.
but do
you really think he's so good that he could turn into someone like
Kerouac?
im so used to Oldman playing the bad guy.
im positive he'd be an
improvement
from Keanu, Penn or Cage though.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:18:41 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nils-Oivind Haagensen
<Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
Subject: OTRmovie/actors (fwd)
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
----------
Forwarded message ----------
Date:
Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:01:27 +0200 (MET DST)
From:
Nils-Oivind Haagensen <hlinh@alfred.uib.no>
To:
Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:
OTRmovie/actors
i see
woody allen as sal paradise, and michael jordan as dean, i really
do,
they would make a terrific couple, and the
lilac-denver-wishing-i-was-a-negro-part
would be hysterical, i'm
not
kidding around... ehr... well... maybe i am
nh
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:04:03 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthias_Schneider
<magrobi@MAIL.ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Help, is there any list of the cities
they drove through in OTR
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Hi
there,
does
anybody have a list (or even a map on the disk) of all the cities they
have
gone through (is Tucson in Arizona included?).
I=B4d
need the information for my thesis.
Thank
you for you support in advance.
Matthias
(Berlin, Germany)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:56:55 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Beats :The List updated 30th aug 1997
(b)
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Donald
Allen
---
Amari
Baraka (Leroi Jones)
---
Wallace
Berman
---
Paul
Blackburn
---
Robin
Blaser
---
Richard
Brautigan
---
Bonnie
Bremser
---
Ray
Bremser
---
Chandler
Brossard
---
Lenny
Bruce
---
Lord
Buckley
---
Charles
Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"
---
William
S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,
Frank Carmody,
Will Dennison,
Old Bull Lee"
---
William
S. Burroughs Jr.
---
John
Cage {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black
Mountain School]
---
Caleb
Carr
---
Lucien
Carr
---
Paul
Carroll
---
Louis R
Cartwright
---
Carolyn
Cassady
---
Neal
Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"
---
Tom
Clark [Paris Review]
---
Andy
Clausen
---
Leonard
Cohen
---
Bruce
Conner
---
Gregory
Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"
---
Robert
Creeley [Black Mountain School]
---
Henry
Cru "Remi Boncoeur"
---
Jay
deFeo
---
Diane
DiPrima
---
John
Doe
---
Kirby
Doyle
---
Edward
Dorn [Black Mountain School]
---
Robert
Duncan [Black Mountain School]
---
Bob
Dylan
---
Kenward
Elmslie [Z]
---
William
Everson (Brother Antoninus)
---
Larry
Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]
---
Richard
Farina
---
Lawrence
Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]
"Lorenzo Monsanto,
Larry O'Hara
Danny
Richman"
---
Charles
Foster
---
Robert
Frank
---
Allen
Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand
Alvah Goldbook, Leon
Levinsky
Carlo
Marx"
---
John
Giorno
---
Morris
Graves
---
Brion
Gysin
---
Dave
Hazelwood
---
William
Inge
---
Wally
Hedrick [Gallery Six]
---
John
Clellon Holmes
---
Herbert
Huncke
---
Ted
Joans [Jazz Poetry]
---
Joyce
Johnson
---
Lenore
Kandel
---
Bob
Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }
---
Robert
Kelly
---
Jack
Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,
Leo Percepied, Ray
Smith,
Jack, Peter
Martin,
Sal
Paradise"
---
Jan
Kerouac
---
Ken
Kesey
---
Franz
Kline
---
Seymour
Krim
---
Paul
Krassner [Realist]
---
Art
Kunkin [Freep]
---
Tuli
Kupferberg [Birth]
---
Joanne
Kyger
---
Philip
Lamantia
---
Jay
Landesman
---
Fran
Landesman
---
James
Laughlin
---
Denise
Levertov
---
Timothy
Leary
---
Lawrence
Lipton
---
Ron
Loewinsohn
---
Malcom
Lowry
---
Bill
MacNeill
---
Norman
Mailer
---
Gerard
Malanga
---
Edward
Marshall
---
Peter
Martin
---
Lewis
McAdams
---
Joanna
McClure
---
Michael
McClure
---
Taylor
Mead
---
David
Meltzer
---
Jack
Micheline
---
Henry
Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }
---
John
Montgomery
---
Shigeyoshi
(Shig) Murao
---
Harold
Norse
---
Frank
O'Hara
---
Charles
Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]
---
Peter
Orlovsky
---
Kenneth
Patchen
---
Thomas
Parkinson
---
Nancy
Peters
---
Stuart
Z. Perkoff
---
Charles
Plymell
---
Dan
Propper
---
Kenneth
Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]
---
Theodore
Roethke
---
Hugh
Romney
---
Michael
Rumaker
---
Ed
Sanders
---
Mark
Schorer
---
Hubert
Jr. Selby
---
Gary
Snyder
---
Carl
Solomon
---
Jack
Spicer
---
Hunter
Stockton Thompson
---
Charles
Upton
---
Janine
Pommy Vega
---
Mark
Tobey
---
Alexander
Trocchi
---
Anne
Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]
---
Lewis
Warsh
---
Alan W.
Watts
---
Lew
Welch
---
Philip
Whalen
---
John
Wieners
---
Jonathan
Williams
---
William
Carlos Williams
---
Ruth
Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]
-*-
Hello!,
i'm
listing the beat generation
(writers
& painters & performers)
& i
begin with a list, everyone
interested
can propose a new name.
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
thanks,
Rinaldo
Rasa.
30th
august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.
-*-
the
list of credits & comments:
Walter
Campbell
<walter.campbell@usa.net>
Timothy
K. Gallaher
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Richard
M. Kershenbaum
<r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>
OHearn
<orpheus@in.the.shadows>
David
Schwarm <dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>
James
Stauffer
<stauffer@pacbell.net>
Michael
Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
-*-
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 15:23:01 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Help,
is there any list of the cities
they drove through in OTR
In-Reply-To: <v03007800b02dbb9f7c01@[160.45.231.7]>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ciao
Matthias,
in the
novel OTR Sal & Dean travel:
===================================================
San
Francisco (Mill City) - New York (Paterson)
-Oakland
-Tracy
-Manteca
-Madera
-Bakerfield
-Los Angeles
-Bakerfield
-Sabinal
-Madera
-Fresno
-Sabinal
-Los Angeles
-Indio, Arizona
-Blyte
-Salome
-Flagstaff, Arizona
-Dalhart, Texas
-St Louis, Missouri
-Columbus, Ohio
-Pittsburg, Pennsylvania
-Harrysburg
-New York
New
York - San Francisco - New York
-Baltimore, Maryland
-Washington
-Richmond, Virginia
-Testament
-Dunn, North Carolina
-Macon, South Carolina
-Flomaton, florida
-Mobile, Alabama
-New Orleans, Lousiana
-Algiers
-Baton Rouge
-Port Allen
-Opelousas
-Starks
-Deweyville
-Beaumont, Texas
-Houston
-Fredericksburg
-Sonora
-El Paso, Texas
-Ozona
-Las Cruces, New Mexico
-Benson, Arizona
-Tucson, Arizona
-Fort Lowell
-Palm Springs, California
-Bakersfield
-Tulare
-Madera
-San Francisco
-New York
===============================================
i hope
this is a bit help,
saluti
cordiali da
Rinaldo.
Venezia-Mestre,
Italia.
At
14.04 30/08/97 +0200,
Matthias_Schneider
<magrobi@MAIL.ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>wrote:
>Hi
there,
>
>does
anybody have a list (or even a map on the disk) of all the cities they
>have
gone through (is Tucson in Arizona included?).
>I4d
need the information for my thesis.
>Thank
you for you support in advance.
>
>Matthias
(Berlin, Germany)
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 08:28:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Beats :The List updated 30th aug
1997 (b)
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
Donald Allen
>
---
>
Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)
>
---
>
Wallace Berman
>
---
>
Paul Blackburn
>
---
>
Robin Blaser
>
---
>
Richard Brautigan
>
---
>
Bonnie Bremser
>
---
>
Ray Bremser
>
---
>
Chandler Brossard
>
---
>
Lenny Bruce
> ---
>
Lord Buckley
>
---
>
Charles Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"
>
---
>
William S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,
>
Frank Carmody,
> Will
Dennison,
>
Old Bull Lee"
>
>
---
>
William S. Burroughs Jr.
>
---
>
John Cage {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992}
[Black Mountain School]
>
---
>
Caleb Carr
>
---
>
Lucien Carr
>
---
>
Paul Carroll
>
---
>
Louis R Cartwright
>
---
>
Carolyn Cassady
>
---
>
Neal Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"
>
---
>
Tom Clark [Paris Review]
>
---
>
Andy Clausen
>
---
>
Leonard Cohen
>
---
>
Bruce Conner
>
---
>
Gregory Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"
>
---
>
Robert Creeley [Black Mountain School]
>
---
>
Henry Cru "Remi Boncoeur"
>
---
>
Jay deFeo
>
---
>
Diane DiPrima
>
---
>
John Doe
>
---
>
Kirby Doyle
>
---
>
Edward Dorn [Black Mountain School]
>
---
>
Robert Duncan [Black Mountain School]
>
---
>
Bob Dylan
>
---
>
Kenward Elmslie [Z]
>
---
>
William Everson (Brother Antoninus)
>
---
>
Larry Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]
>
---
>
Richard Farina
>
---
>
Lawrence Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]
>
"Lorenzo Monsanto,
> Larry
O'Hara
> Danny Richman"
>
---
>
Charles Foster
>
---
>
Robert Frank
>
---
>
Allen Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand
> Alvah Goldbook,
Leon
Levinsky
> Carlo
Marx"
>
---
>
John Giorno
>
---
>
Morris Graves
>
---
>
Brion Gysin
>
---
>
Dave Hazelwood
>
---
>
William Inge
>
---
>
Wally Hedrick [Gallery Six]
>
---
>
John Clellon Holmes
>
---
>
Herbert Huncke
>
---
>
Ted Joans [Jazz Poetry]
>
---
>
Joyce Johnson
>
---
>
Lenore Kandel
>
---
>
Bob Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }
>
---
>
Robert Kelly
>
---
>
Jack Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,
> Leo
Percepied, Ray
Smith,
> Jack,
Peter Martin,
> Sal
Paradise"
>
---
>
Jan Kerouac
>
---
>
Ken Kesey
>
---
>
Franz Kline
>
---
>
Seymour Krim
>
---
>
Paul Krassner [Realist]
>
---
>
Art Kunkin [Freep]
>
---
>
Tuli Kupferberg [Birth]
>
---
>
Joanne Kyger
>
---
>
Philip Lamantia
>
---
>
Jay Landesman
>
---
>
Fran Landesman
>
---
>
James Laughlin
>
---
>
Denise Levertov
>
---
>
Timothy Leary
>
---
>
Lawrence Lipton
>
---
>
Ron Loewinsohn
>
---
>
Malcom Lowry
>
---
>
Bill MacNeill
>
---
>
Norman Mailer
>
---
>
Gerard Malanga
>
---
> Edward
Marshall
>
---
>
Peter Martin
>
---
>
Lewis McAdams
>
---
>
Joanna McClure
>
---
>
Michael McClure
>
---
>
Taylor Mead
>
---
>
David Meltzer
>
---
>
Jack Micheline
>
---
>
Henry Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }
>
---
>
John Montgomery
>
---
>
Shigeyoshi (Shig) Murao
>
---
>
Harold Norse
>
---
>
Frank O'Hara
>
---
>
Charles Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]
>
---
>
Peter Orlovsky
>
---
>
Kenneth Patchen
>
---
>
Thomas Parkinson
>
---
>
Nancy Peters
>
---
>
Stuart Z. Perkoff
>
---
>
Charles Plymell
>
---
>
Dan Propper
>
---
>
Kenneth Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]
>
---
>
Theodore Roethke
>
---
>
Hugh Romney
>
---
>
Michael Rumaker
>
---
> Ed
Sanders
>
---
> Mark
Schorer
>
---
>
Hubert Jr. Selby
>
---
>
Gary Snyder
>
---
>
Carl Solomon
>
---
>
Jack Spicer
>
---
>
Hunter Stockton Thompson
>
---
>
Charles Upton
>
---
>
Janine Pommy Vega
>
---
>
Mark Tobey
>
---
>
Alexander Trocchi
>
---
>
Anne Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]
>
---
>
Lewis Warsh
>
---
>
Alan W. Watts
>
---
>
Lew Welch
>
---
>
Philip Whalen
>
---
>
John Wieners
>
---
>
Jonathan Williams
>
---
>
William Carlos Williams
>
---
>
Ruth Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]
>
-*-
>
>
Hello!,
>
i'm listing the beat generation
>
(writers & painters & performers)
>
& i begin with a list, everyone
>
interested can propose a new name.
>
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
>
thanks,
>
Rinaldo Rasa.
>
30th august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.
>
>
-*-
>
the list of credits & comments:
>
>
Walter Campbell
<walter.campbell@usa.net>
>
Timothy K. Gallaher
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
>
Richard M. Kershenbaum
<r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>
>
OHearn
<orpheus@in.the.shadows>
>
David Schwarm
<dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>
>
James Stauffer
<stauffer@pacbell.net>
>
Michael Stutz
<stutz@dsl.org>
>
-*-
i would
add
james
gauerholz
david
ohle
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:36:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Help,
is there any list of the cities
they drove through in OTR
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
Ciao Matthias,
>
> in
the novel OTR Sal & Dean travel:
>
>
===================================================
>
San Francisco (Mill City) - New York (Paterson)
>
> -Oakland
> -Tracy
> -Manteca
> -Madera
> -Bakerfield
> -Los Angeles
> -Bakerfield
> -Sabinal
> -Madera
> -Fresno
> -Sabinal
> -Los Angeles
> -Indio, Arizona
> -Blyte
> -Salome
> -Flagstaff, Arizona
> -Dalhart, Texas
> -St Louis, Missouri
> -Columbus, Ohio
> -Pittsburg, Pennsylvania
> -Harrysburg
> -New York
>
>
New York - San Francisco - New York
>
> -Baltimore, Maryland
> -Washington
> -Richmond, Virginia
> -Testament
> -Dunn, North Carolina
> -Macon, South Carolina
Rinaldo,
on this line, I am sure they came through South Carolina. But,
I would
have thought that Macon would be Macon, Gerogia. I will have to
look to
see if we have a Macon in South Carolina.
> -Flomaton, florida
> -Mobile, Alabama
> -New Orleans, Lousiana
> -Algiers
> -Baton Rouge
> -Port Allen
> -Opelousas
> -Starks
> -Deweyville
> -Beaumont, Texas
> -Houston
> -Fredericksburg
> -Sonora
> -El Paso, Texas
> -Ozona
> -Las Cruces, New Mexico
> -Benson, Arizona
> -Tucson, Arizona
> -Fort Lowell
> -Palm Springs, California
> -Bakersfield
> -Tulare
> -Madera
> -San Francisco
> -New York
>
===============================================
> i
hope this is a bit help,
>
saluti cordiali da
>
Rinaldo.
>
Venezia-Mestre, Italia.
>
>
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:51:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: happy birthday, bird
Mime-Version:
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>Before
the day is out and all this discussion moves away from Charley Parker,
>I
just want to say today is Bird's birthday... so get out your old scratched
>up
vinyl and listen to this genius.
Thanks
for the reminder, diane! Put on some of the old scratchy vinyl last
night
after reading your message and then sat outside in front of a small
campfire,
jupiter, milky way, countless stars above and Birds sax drifting
out
skyward from the open window.
>Don
ended up in New York, living with Charley's "woman" Chan on 52nd
Street
>for
a while, and got into the same old habits all all the rest of them. He
>ran
with Bird and Fats and everyone else, shared needles, did time, and was
>responsible
for recording many of the tapes that came out of those years that
>were
eventually made into the records of sessions and sold on various labels.
I'm
listening now to "Bird is Free' "recorded in early 1950 at a
concert-dance
in New York City by a close friend." Maybe Don?
Synchronisity.
Just happened to have it on when reading your note.
And in
Gerry's "Memory Babe" page 207 he writes of Parker and Kerouac and
Symphony
Sid, the Royal Roost club and how "Bird was certainly Jack's
favorite
jazzman."
It all
connects through time, space and creativity.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:23:01 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Pre-recorded? (for David Rhaesa & Diane Carter)
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>Arthur
Nusbaum wrote:
>
This topic, which I see you grappling with, is in my
>
opinion one of the most constant and complex threads running through
>
the
>
whole WSB ouvre. On the one hand, he
has stated that his intention was
> to
>
subvert the pre-recorded universe through cutups, and that he has
>
"succeeded
> to
some modest extent" if I'm quoting him correctly. But, as DC has
> been
>
pointing out, it gets very tricky- how can we possibly circumscribe the
>
perimeters of the pre-recorded universe, comprehend its limits if any?
> Couldn't the subversive discovery, the
"happy accident" be part of the
>
script? This is where I have an idea,
based on further WSB statements
>
and my
>
own small experience with cutups. They
are potentially a key INTO the
pre-recorded universe, not so much a way OUT
of it...
> This epiphany came after the fact, he could
not change history
>
(subvert the
>
pre-recorded universe) but he could UNDERSTAND it better in retrospect.
It has
taken me a week to get back to you on this, but what I found
illuminating
in your analysis was that Burroughs words are a key INTO the
pre-recorded
universe and can serve as a guide for understanding as
opposed
to a map or way out of the pre-recorded universe. Does that then
mean
that cut-ups lead to new ways of seeing and understanding, that they
are in
fact "happy accidents?" It
seems to boil down to the fact that if
Burroughs
believed in a one-God universe, it was conversely a God playing
with
creation in the same way that Burroughs as a writer created and
played
with his universe of words.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 01:34:11 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Naked Lunch: Benway
MIME-Version:
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>
RACE wrote:
> I
see WSB in Naked Lunch as writing for something like "The Carol
>
Burnett Show from HELL!" - (with a big smile after the hell) If you
>
take what was "the edge" of acceptable humor and push it back across
>
the
>
board to where it is considered mundane and straight dramatics and then
>
employ the same "sketch" technique (a talent only WSB has been able
to
>
master it seems) a whole new form of humor erupts. Those who miss the
>
humor pigeonhole the writings under categories of "Apocalyptic
>
Literature" and whatnot. Missing
the whole game of this routine - the
>
joy and laughter of it all ---- afterall should a Naked Lunch being a
>
sombre ritual????
Back to
the Joselito scene that I still fail to comprehend, I think. The
humor
part for me comes when he says,
"The
doctor grabs Carl's cock, leaping into the air with a coarse peasant
gaffaw. His European smile ignores the misbehavior
of a child or an
animal. He goes on smoothly in his eerily
unaccented, disembodied
English.
'Our Old Faithful Bacillus Koch.' The doctor clicks his heels
and
bows his head. 'Otherwise they would multiply their stupid peasant
asshole
into the sea, is it not?' He shrieks, thrusting his face into
Carl's. Carl retreats sideways with the grey wall of
rain behind him."
Definitely
a far cry from Carol Burnett.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:00:42 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: mother
MIME-Version:
1.0
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mother
do you think they'll drop the bomb?
mother
do you think they'll like this song?
mother
do you think they'll try to break my balls?
mother
should i build the wall?
mother
should i run for president?
mother
should i trust the government?
mother
will they put me in the firing line?
mother
am i really dying?
hush
now baby, baby, don't you cry.
mother's
gonna make all your nightmares come true.
mother's
gonna put all her fears into you.
mother's
gonna keep you right here under her wing.
she
won't let you fly, but she might let you sing.
mama
will keep baby cozy and warm.
ooooh
baby ooooh baby ooooh baby,
of
course mama'll help to build the wall.
mother
do you think she's good enough -- to me?
mother
do you think she's dangerous -- to me?
mother
will she tear your little boy apart?
mother
will she break my heart?
hush
now baby, baby don't you cry.
mama's
gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
mama
won't let anyone dirty get through.
mama's
gonna wait up until you get in.
mama
will always find out where you've been.
mama's
gonna keep baby healthy and clean.
ooooh
baby ooooh baby ooooh baby
you'll
always be baby to me.
mother,
did it have to be so high?
~cya
randy
thanx
to pink floyd lyrics page
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:43:18 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff
<howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Kicks Joy Darkness
On Thu,
28 Aug 1997 22:39:14 -0500 Richard Schlimm
<rschlimm@MAIL.WISCNET.NET>
writes:
>where
can i buy the tribute to Kerouac c.d. Kicks Joy Darkness
>(besides
>ordering
it off the internet)? is it available
in some music stores?
>does
>anyone
have it? is it any good?
>
I
picked it up the only two copies at a local record shop in Omaha. If
you
avoid the chain stores and find a speciaalty record shop with a good
spoken
word section, you shouldn't have any problem.
And it is great. A
must
have in my personal collection.
Allen, William, Michael Stipe, Richard Lewis
and many more all do a
great
job. (Everyone except Julianna Hatfield, who must die. She does
"Silly
Goofball Poems" and everytime it is on in my apartment, my friends
and I
make a mad dash to the cd player to skip the track when it comes
up.) (Goes along witht he theory that all great
compilation cds must
have
one, token horrible track.)
Good
luck. I think you will enjoy.
Brian
M. Kirchhoff
howl
420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of
this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus
4 (unpublished)
(this
poem is done in it's entirity by allen on the kjd disc. one of the
best
tracks of allen reading someone else's work i have ever heard.)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:18:29 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff
<howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ken Kesey
On Wed,
27 Aug 1997 19:43:28 -0400 Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
writes:
>There
is a small article on Kesey in the latest ish of
>Q
Magazine (UK rock mag)
>
I don't
know if any of you out there are familiar with Phish, but I just
got
back from following them for the last month and at the Buffalo, New
York
show, Ken showed up with the Further bus.
He signed autographs and
hung
out in the lots before the show and performed with Phish during the
show. (He was on a quest to find the long lost
Bozos. We found 'em that
night.)
I was
lamenting the fact that I never met either Ginsberg or Burroughs
before
their recent deaths just before I left.
It was cool to meet
Kesey. It was amazing to see Kesey and Phish come
together on stage. It
almost
felt like a Dead show that night.
Brian
M. Kirchhoff
howl420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of
this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus
4 (unpublished)
"Can't
this wait 'til I'm old? Can't I live
while I'm young?"
-Phish, Chalkdust Torture, Picture of
Necter
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:56:15 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff
<howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Who's Who in Beat Lit...
Comments:
To: ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
not
just cut up, but butchered:
On Thu,
28 Aug 1997 15:24:35 -0400 "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
writes:
>Reply
to message from gallaher@hsc.usc.edu of Thu, 28 Aug
>Correct
me if I'm wrong but I believe On the Road was written
>there.
(in the flat)
-I
thought that it was written at the YMCA in Chicago. I don't know
where I
heard that, but while living in Chicago, someone got that in my
head
and we always paid homage to that building as we passed it. If
anyone
knows for sure, I would appreciate the info.
Brian
M. Kirchhoff
howl420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of
this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus
4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 16:16:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: New Picture of Jack!
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Our web
page is getting better every day! Today we have provided a new link
that
will bring you to a new picture of Jack Kerouac. This picture shows
Jack in
all his dark beauty. Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html
Then
click on the appropriate link called:
"New
Picture of Jack" or something to that effect. Enjoy and Happy Labor Day
weekend
to our American readers! Regards, Paul of TKQ.....
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:45:28 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Rinaldo: Books into movies, additions to
your List
Comments:
cc: 74067.3712@compuserve.com
Dear
Rinaldo:
I agree
with your choices of films that did justice to, or even, as in the
case of
"The Shining", were better than, the books from which they were
derived. In my opinion (and this is indeed a highly
opinionated topic, a
matter
of individual taste and perspective) there are 3 basic categories of
films
made from books. The vast majority are
to one degree or another
failures,
unsuccessfully condensing & evoking the books. Some are noble
failures
(like the film version of NAKED LUNCH), and it's not surprising that
most
films fall short of the daunting task of translating a different and in
some
ways deeper medium- the untranslatable, apples into oranges. In the
second
category, one out of perhaps 100 efforts take on a life of their own,
departing
from the books to a large extent and standing by themselves,
achieving
the status of works in their own right, sometimes superior to or in
any
case inspired beyond the books they are loosely based on. "The Shining"
is such
a film, and another Kubrick classic, his version of Nabokov's LOLITA,
is
another- I found the experiences of reading the book and watching the
movie
totally different, but both very satisfying.
"White Mischief"
completely
departs from the factual account of the twilight of decadent
British
colonial arstocracy in Kenya on which it is loosely based, and is an
overlooked
gem of character study (especially of the cuckolded nobleman
played
by Joss Ackland) not quite buried in digressive Hollywood glitz. The
third
and rarest category is that of films that so closely capture the spirit
of the
books they are based on that the experience of either reading the book
or
watching the movie is almost identical.
I am aware of only 2 films that I
think
fall into this category- "Midnight
Cowboy", based on the novel by
James
Leo Herlihy, and "The Day of the Locust", based on the novel by
Nathaniel
West. Both were directed by John
Schlesinger, who ironically has
captured
quintessentially American stories although he is British. If you
have
not already, I urge you to read and see both versions of both works.
As long
as I'm on the subject of Herlihy and West, I think that they should
be
added to your list-in-progress. Neither
are squarely in the Beat category
technically,
but if Malcolm Lowry is on the list, so should they be. West
died in
1940, but his works, especially MISS LONELYHEARTS and THE DAY OF THE
LOCUST,
evoke an unblinkingly truthful view of the American Nightmare that is
a
foundation and precursor of the Beat vision.
The same is true of Herlihy,
I have
only read MIDNIGHT COWBOY by him but it is a courageous masterpiece.
It is almost contemporary with Selby's LAST
EXIT TO BROOKLYN, with which it
closely
relates. The common thread among these authors and the Beats is the
discarding
of societal norms and illusions (in West & Herlihy's case they set
up
characters who believe in and depend on media-induced illusions and are
then
destroyed or at least greatly hurt by the truth behind them), and,
sometimes,
the possibility of redemption by the attainment of real human
connections
and values beyond the chasing of mirages.
Speaking of Lowry &
Selby,
I would consider the film versions of UNDER THE VOLCANO and LAST EXIT
TO
BROOKLYN both barely making it into the second category, failing to evoke
the
cinematically unevokable spirit of the great works on which they are
based,
but worthwhile separately on their own terms.
I agree
with Diane De Rooy that ON THE ROAD and the Beats in general "can't
be done
on film", it isn't likely that this new upcoming effort will beat the
statistics,
especially if the usual currently popular crop of actors and
directors
control it. I would vote for
Schlesinger to come closest to the
actual
book, or David Lynch and maybe a few others to create something
separate
from it but worthy in itself. I am
friends with a local young
artist
and film director, James Bonner, who I believe could successfully
tackle
a Beat subject. He is interested in the
lives and works of the Beats,
but is
now concentrating on writing original scripts to direct.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:04:33 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LYSDEXIC <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: happy birthday, bird
Here's
yet another bit of Bird trivia. A few years back, I was working in one
of the
last Womrath chains of bookstores in NYC (1989) located on Madison
Avenue
and East 84th Street. One day I aswered the phone and haerd an elderly
voice
say, "this is the Baronese of Weehawken!" Thinking it was a freind
calling
and trying to fug with my mind, I said something stupid like, "amd I'm
the
Duke of Vice," and hung up. A few minutes later she called back,
"this is
the
Baronese..." So this time I got the owner who said, "oh, the
Baronese!"
I was
later told that the woman calling was a patron of the arts, the very
woman
in whose apartment on Fifth Ave (in the Stanhope, I think it was) where
the
Bird died.
Does
anybody know anything about the Baronese (Baronesse?) of Weehawken, or was
the
whole world just friggin with my head?
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 17:59:24 -0500
Reply-To: christi@tor.hookup.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: heath <christi@TOR.HOOKUP.NET>
Subject: Naked Lunch on CBC
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
I've
been lurking on BEAT-L a few weeks and I wanted to drop a note to
mention
to any Canadians on the list that Naked Lunch will be aired on
CBC
Saturday, September 6.
Take
care,
Heather
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:26:42 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Rinaldo: Books into movies,
additions to your List
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
05:45 PM 8/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear
Rinaldo:
>
>I
agree with your choices of films that did justice to, or even, as in the
>case
of "The Shining", were better than, the books from which they were
>derived. In my opinion (and this is indeed a highly
opinionated topic, a
>matter
of individual taste and perspective) there are 3 basic categories of
>films
made from books. The vast majority are
to one degree or another
>failures,
unsuccessfully condensing & evoking the books. Some are noble
>failures
(like the film version of NAKED LUNCH), and it's not surprising that
>most
films fall short of the daunting task of translating a different and in
>some
ways deeper medium- the untranslatable, apples into oranges. In the
>second
category, one out of perhaps 100 efforts take on a life of their own,
>departing
from the books to a large extent and standing by themselves,
>achieving
the status of works in their own right, sometimes superior to or in
>any
case inspired beyond the books they are loosely based on. "The Shining"
>is
such a film, and another Kubrick classic, his version of Nabokov's LOLITA,
>is
another- I found the experiences of reading the book and watching the
>movie
totally different, but both very satisfying.
"White Mischief"
>completely
departs from the factual account of the twilight of decadent
>British
colonial arstocracy in Kenya on which it is loosely based, and is an
>overlooked
gem of character study (especially of the cuckolded nobleman
>played
by Joss Ackland) not quite buried in digressive Hollywood glitz. The
>third
and rarest category is that of films that so closely capture the spirit
>of
the books they are based on that the experience of either reading the book
>or
watching the movie is almost identical.
I am aware of only 2 films that I
>think
fall into this category- "Midnight
Cowboy", based on the novel by
>James
Leo Herlihy, and "The Day of the Locust", based on the novel by
>Nathaniel
West. Both were directed by John Schlesinger,
who ironically has
>captured
quintessentially American stories although he is British. If you
>have
not already, I urge you to read and see both versions of both works.
>
>As
long as I'm on the subject of Herlihy and West, I think that they should
>be
added to your list-in-progress. Neither
are squarely in the Beat category
>technically,
but if Malcolm Lowry is on the list, so should they be. West
>died
in 1940, but his works, especially MISS LONELYHEARTS and THE DAY OF THE
>LOCUST,
evoke an unblinkingly truthful view of the American Nightmare that is
>a
foundation and precursor of the Beat vision.
The same is true of Herlihy,
>I
have only read MIDNIGHT COWBOY by him but it is a courageous masterpiece.
> It
is almost contemporary with Selby's LAST EXIT TO BROOKLYN, with which it
>closely
relates. The common thread among these authors and the Beats is the
>discarding
of societal norms and illusions (in West & Herlihy's case they set
>up
characters who believe in and depend on media-induced illusions and are
>then
destroyed or at least greatly hurt by the truth behind them), and,
>sometimes,
the possibility of redemption by the attainment of real human
>connections
and values beyond the chasing of mirages.
Speaking of Lowry &
>Selby,
I would consider the film versions of UNDER THE VOLCANO and LAST EXIT
>TO
BROOKLYN both barely making it into the second category, failing to evoke
>the
cinematically unevokable spirit of the great works on which they are
>based,
but worthwhile separately on their own terms.
>
>I
agree with Diane De Rooy that ON THE ROAD and the Beats in general "can't
>be
done on film", it isn't likely that this new upcoming effort will beat the
>statistics,
especially if the usual currently popular crop of actors and
>directors
control it. I would vote for
Schlesinger to come closest to the
>actual
book, or David Lynch and maybe a few others to create something
>separate
from it but worthy in itself. I am
friends with a local young
>artist
and film director, James Bonner, who I believe could successfully
>tackle
a Beat subject. He is interested in the
lives and works of the Beats,
>but
is now concentrating on writing original scripts to direct.
>
>Regards,
>
>Arthur
>
>
The
films of One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest and The English Patient
are
BETTER than the books they were based on.
I'm sure these are not
the
only instances of films that are better than material they were
adapted
from. John Von Druten's play of
isherwood's Berlin Stories
is its
equal, and Cabaret is an improvement.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:51:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "L.W. Deal"
<RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Jim Carroll & Jack
Forgive
me if I'm rehashing old news, but I'm only a few months new to the
List...
Anyhow, that aside, I was perusing the net
this morning and happened
upon
THE BOOKSMITH Bookstore site where there's an interview posted with the
brilliant
Jim Carroll (interviewed by Thomas Gladysz). At the tail end of the
script,
Carroll talks about his first meeting w/ Kerouac, shortly before his
death...
>>>>
"It was hard to get past Kerouac's wife, you know. Guys would
come to
visit him all the time. He didn't like hippies, and he was real
conservative
toward the end of his life. His wife kept anyone away from the
door
who came to make this pilgrimage type of thing with a copy of On the
Road.
If she did let you in, he might wind up getting high and go on a three
day
drunk,
and she wanted to prevent that at all cost. Ted had trouble getting in
the
first
time he went up there. This was with Aram Saroyan and Duncan
McNaughton,
I think, to do The Paris Review interview.
Coming
back from Maine - where we were staying with this guy from the Fugs,
Lee
Crabtree - Ted and I were hitchhiking down the coast to Cambridge to do a
reading.
We were not too far from Lowell, so Berrigan said, "Let's stop off
and
see
Jack." We got there and his wife was very nice and let us in. But he was
in
bad
shape and very crotchety. It really didn't go well except that he had
read
The
World,
this mimeographed magazine from St. Marks. It was a poetry magazine,
except
that they had this prose issue. The story usually goes that he read
them
(The
Basketball Diaries) in The Paris Review, but that didn't come out until
after
he died. What I did was send him the manuscript.
He
liked me in a certain way - maybe because I wasn't too hippie-ish. This
was
a time
in his life when he was advocating William F. Buckley for president -
so
you
can't really trust the things he was saying. Politics was one thing with
him,
he was
on surer ground with his writing.
I got
to see him again in New York, between six and eight months before he
died.
He had to come into New York once in a while to see his agent. He was
at
Larry
Rivers' house, and of course he was surrounded by all his old friends.
I
went up
to him, and he said he had gotten the manuscript. He said he would
write
me a letter of introduction. I didn't want to publish the book then. I
wanted
to
establish myself not as a street writer, but as a poet. What he was
essentially
doing
was giving me a blurb. When I did decide to publish The Basketball
Diaries,
Anne Waldman solicited a blurb from Burroughs for the jacket of the
original
edition.
Kerouac
sent me this letter, and said, if your publisher wants a blurb, here.
I feel
funny
about blurbs. Myself, I don't like to use them. But now, I get sent
books
from
people who want blurbs, and I feel like I should reciprocate. Maybe it
is
bad
form not to, but I usually don't do it. I try to avoid it. Certainly,
that
quote
from
Kerouac has been wonderful for me. I feel he was being very generous. I
know he
wouldn't have written it if he hadn't liked the work; I think he felt
I was
carrying
on a certain spirit that was influenced by him. He thought I was
carrying
a
torch, and in a spiritual sense, I was.
I
hadn't in fact read Kerouac when I wrote The Basketball Diaries. I didn't
read
On the
Road or even Dharma Bums. I read The Town and The City first, which
was his
first novel and pretty straightforward in form. I hadn't read him and
I
hadn't
read Burroughs - but I had read Ginsberg by the time I got to the
middle
part of
the book as well as Frank O'Hara and John Ashberry and all the poets
in
the
Donald Allen anthology.<<<<
The
site's address is: www. home.forbin.com/laverne/carroll/kerouac.html
Kisses
& Starfishes from Seattle
L
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 18:47:40 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell
<judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Re: Jim Carroll & Jack
In-Reply-To: <970830185009_1648584289@emout15.mail.aol.com>
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At
06:51 PM 8/30/97 L.W. Deal wrote:
>Forgive
me if I'm rehashing old news, but I'm only a few months new to the
>List...
Anyhow, that aside, I was perusing the net
this morning and happened
>upon
THE BOOKSMITH Bookstore site where there's an interview posted with the
>brilliant
Jim Carroll (interviewed by Thomas Gladysz). At the tail end of the
>script,
Carroll talks about his first meeting w/ Kerouac, shortly before his
>death...
>
(interview
snipped)
>
>The
site's address is: www. home.forbin.com/laverne/carroll/kerouac.html
That
url doesn't work, but I found the interview at:
http://www.booksmith.com/reader/carroll.html
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:02:21 -0500
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe:
Dean
In-Reply-To:
<970829123705_1412377946@emout16.mail.aol.com>
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I was
thinking some of the cast of the film The Usual Suspects (Stephen
Baldwin
as Dean, Gabriel Byrne as Corso (if indeed he appears in the book,
i cant
remember), Kevin Spacey as Sal) could appear in the film. Then cast
John
Turturro as Allen Ginsberg, Christopher Walken as Old Bull Lee. Julia
Roberts
as Dean's wife. Wait, what about Dennis Hopper as Bull Lee? i know
he's
getting old...
leo
"Let
us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of
your
path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,
you may
present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly
will.
Ad astra per aspera." --Jack
Kerouac
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:09:40 -0500
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR Chris Isaak: Sal, Michael Stipe:
Dean
MIME-Version:
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Sinverg=FCenza
wrote:
>=20
Wait, what about Dennis Hopper as Bull
Lee?=20
I think
sean penn would make a good Bull Lee, if he played him with
elegance
and craft. Oh my god what have i done. Entered into this
casting
thread, help, help. before i decide credit font.
p
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:29:16 -0400
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From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: OTR film
Comments:
To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <3404ED71.788F@pacbell.net>
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It has
to be understood that any film version of a novel can only contain
parts
of that novel. Thats why they are
called adaptations. I saw a
copy of
the early script for OTR last year (a street vendor in the
village
regularly sells movie scripts and had an OTR one). It seemed
good
but many of you wouldnt like it if overly devoted to the book.
The
movie is going to focus almost entirely on the Sal/Dean story.
Consequently
most of part one of OTR will not be in the film. The story
of
Kerouac's first trip west, Cheyenne, Denver, working as a guard in
Frisco,
living in the fields picking cotton with the mexican girl Terry.
All
great scenes, but no Neal/Dean in them, so not likely to make the cut
in a
two hour movie. Terry, Minnesota Slim,
Remi Bonceur etc are also
all
extraneous characters that would be too confusing and for which there
would
be no time in a two hour film to flesh them out.
Consequently
it remains to be seen if there is a way to do justice to OTR
in two
hours. The script I saw focuses almost
entirely on Sal, Dean, and
Carlo
Marx (the Ginsberg character), and enlarges the role of the
Old
Bull Lee (Burroughs) character. In fact
the first scenes in the
script
are of those four characters in NYC, when Cassady first arrives
(an
inaccuracy since Burroughs was already on the run from NYC by then
and
living in Texas)
But any
movie adaptation has to take literary license like that. Lets
just
hope that Coppola does it well.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:38:28 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Beat books
In-Reply-To: <199708290719.AAA14245@hsc.usc.edu>
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Took a
trip over to the venerable Strand used book store today. In rare
book
dept, they have two interesting items:
1. A
first edition, in excellent condition btw, of "Town and the City"
Looks like new but lacks dust jacket. $70
Interesting because the author
is listed as "John Kerouac"
2. A
first edition of a scholarly beat book I'd never heard of from the
late 50's called "Holy
Barbarians" by Lawrence Lipton.
Anyone ever read
this?.
Most of the major beat writers are quoted or interviewed in
it.
Jack Kerouac is a glaring absence though. He is rarely even referred
to except in an interview with Ginsberg and
Gregory Corso, who mention
Kerouac in every answer to every
question. Since this book was likely
only written because of OTR popularity, I
can only surmise that Kerouac
refused to cooperate with the project and
the author punished him by
virtually writing him out of his beat
history.
I had
no money to buy this book so Im interested in hearing if anyone has
read
it. Lipton had a generational age
difference with the beat subjects
he
wrote about so just from flipping through it, it seems like he might
have
viewed it more as a cult and one-time social phenomenon than
anything
potentially lasting. But as I said I
havent read it.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:39:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: LYSDEXIC <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: OTR film
I think
Eddie Murphy should play all the parts.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 21:47:20 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: happy birthday, bird
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In a
message dated 97-08-30 12:53:50 EDT, Michael Czarnecki wrote:
<<
I'm listening now to "Bird is Free' "recorded in early 1950 at a
concert-dance in New York City by a close
friend." Maybe Don?
>>
You
know, growing up with Don Lanphere, I just always thought he was kind=
a
ordinary,
except he was cool about drugs in the Sixties when grown-ups
weren't
cool about drugs. I heard him jam in the basement of the Belmont
Music
store with other jazz players he'd bring in from out of town, and n=
ever
thought
he was anything special. He was the first sax player I'd ever hea=
rd
demonstrating
the "form." I just figured everyone played like that.
Only
later, when I began my jazz education (thanks to Don and local beatn=
ik
record
store owner, Bob Godfrey, a boyhood chum of Don's there in Wenatch=
ee)
did I
realize how special he was. He makes it look easy, like all the gre=
ats
do and
did.
I
finally got around to interviewing Don formally for a couple stories I =
did
on him
back in 1994. Only then did I realize the extent of his associatio=
n
with
the Chicago and Kansas City beboppers and the denizens of 52nd Stree=
t. I
hadn't
realized until then that he'd also played with Woody Herman (was o=
ne
of the
Four Brothers), nor had I realized that he was one of the many peo=
ple
lugging
a reel-to-reel tape recorder around everywhere (which was a major
reason
why Bird would always make certain he included Don. He'd say, "We'=
re
playing
at the Baby Grand... come on down and bring your recorder.") And =
Don,
who was
just 17 or 18 years old then, would always show up and record, an=
d
sometimes
he played.
Out of
curiosity today, I did a web search for Don Lanphere and found a l=
ot
of
stuff. Here's a bit of bio:
.......................
Don
Lanphere began playing the saxophone at the age of eight after listen=
ing
to jazz
artists Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong at his father's music
store
in Wenatchee, WA. By the age of 12 he was a featured soloist with D=
ick
Jurgens
and at 17 with the Jimmy Lunceford band.
=A0 =A0
=A0 =A0 By 1948 Lanphere had landed in the legendary 52'nd Street=
jazz scene,
recording
with legends Fats Navarro and Charlie Parker in New York. Years
later,
looking for a change from the fast-paced drug-influenced New York =
jazz
scene,
Lanphere returned to the Northwest.
......................
Then, I
found a discography for Parker and on this album, on a cut writte=
n by
Miles
Davis, I found Don had a sax credit:
BIRD'S
EYES, Volume 12
(Philology
W 842.2; TT =3D 74:01)
(e)
Half Nelson (M. Davis)..........2:51
Recorded
June 1950 at Jimmy Knepper's home, New York:
Jon Nielson
trumpet
Jimmy Knepper trombone
Charlie Parker alto saxophone
Joe Maini
alto saxophone
Don Lanphere tenor saxophone
Al Haig
piano
Frank Isola
drums
...................................
This is
really cool. I'm not sure even Don knows he's listed here.
For a
long time I've been meaning to ask Don if he ever met Kerouac. Also=
,
there's
a play running here in Seattle called "Kerouac: The essence of Ja=
ck,"
and it
features a lone sax player accompaniment to the actor's monologs, =
with
a
"bebop" trio on weekends. It's a great play, by the way, and it's
being
held
over for the millionth time until the first week of October. Anyway,
I've
been thinking how incredible it could be to try to put Don together =
with
playwright/actor
Vince Balestri, and see if Don can sit in and riff on
kerouac
some night.
So now
I'm gonna do all these things and get back to anyone who's interes=
ted.
I think
there are even fewer living beboppers than Beats today. Anyone kn=
ow
where
anyone else is hanging out? gigging?
If you
want more information about the Kerouac play in Seattle, drop me a
note. I
actually wrote a review of it which I would send to anyone
interested.
diane
de rooy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 22:10:11 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beats :The List updated 30th aug
1997 (b)
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And
Ruth Weiss -- early jazz poet, helped organize Cellar readings; also
integrated
jazz readings with film, ie, "the Brink". She's published 8
collections
of poems as well.
>Donald
Allen
>---
>Amari
Baraka (Leroi Jones)
>---
>Wallace
Berman
>---
>Paul
Blackburn
>---
>Robin
Blaser
>---
>Richard
Brautigan
>---
>Bonnie
Bremser
>---
>Ray
Bremser
>---
>Chandler
Brossard
>---
>Lenny
Bruce
>---
>Lord
Buckley
>---
>Charles
Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"
>---
>William
S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,
>
Frank Carmody,
>
Will Dennison,
> Old Bull
Lee"
>
>---
>William
S. Burroughs Jr.
>---
>John
Cage {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black
Mountain School]
>---
>Caleb
Carr
>---
>Lucien
Carr
>---
>Paul
Carroll
>---
>Louis
R Cartwright
>---
>Carolyn
Cassady
>---
>Neal
Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"
>---
>Tom
Clark [Paris Review]
>---
>Andy
Clausen
>---
>Leonard
Cohen
>---
>Bruce
Conner
>---
>Gregory
Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"
>---
>Robert
Creeley [Black Mountain School]
>---
>Henry
Cru "Remi Boncoeur"
>---
>Jay
deFeo
>---
>Diane
DiPrima
>---
>John
Doe
>---
>Kirby
Doyle
>---
>Edward
Dorn [Black Mountain School]
>---
>Robert
Duncan [Black Mountain School]
>---
>Bob
Dylan
>---
>Kenward
Elmslie [Z]
>---
>William
Everson (Brother Antoninus)
>---
>Larry
Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]
>---
>Richard
Farina
>---
>Lawrence
Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]
> "Lorenzo Monsanto,
> Larry
O'Hara
> Danny
Richman"
>---
>Charles
Foster
>---
>Robert
Frank
>---
>Allen
Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand
> Alvah
Goldbook,
>Leon
Levinsky
> Carlo
Marx"
>---
>John
Giorno
>---
>Morris
Graves
>---
>Brion
Gysin
>---
>Dave
Hazelwood
>---
>William
Inge
>---
>Wally
Hedrick [Gallery Six]
>---
>John
Clellon Holmes
>---
>Herbert
Huncke
>---
>Ted
Joans [Jazz Poetry]
>---
>Joyce
Johnson
>---
>Lenore
Kandel
>---
>Bob
Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }
>---
>Robert
Kelly
>---
>Jack
Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,
> Leo
Percepied, Ray
>Smith,
> Jack, Peter
Martin,
> Sal
Paradise"
>---
>Jan
Kerouac
>---
>Ken
Kesey
>---
>Franz
Kline
>---
>Seymour
Krim
>---
>Paul
Krassner [Realist]
>---
>Art
Kunkin [Freep]
>---
>Tuli
Kupferberg [Birth]
>---
>Joanne
Kyger
>---
>Philip
Lamantia
>---
>Jay
Landesman
>---
>Fran
Landesman
>---
>James
Laughlin
>---
>Denise
Levertov
>---
>Timothy
Leary
>---
>Lawrence
Lipton
>---
>Ron
Loewinsohn
>---
>Malcom
Lowry
>---
>Bill
MacNeill
>---
>Norman
Mailer
>---
>Gerard
Malanga
>---
>Edward
Marshall
>---
>Peter
Martin
>---
>Lewis
McAdams
>---
>Joanna
McClure
>---
>Michael
McClure
>---
>Taylor
Mead
>---
>David
Meltzer
>---
>Jack
Micheline
>---
>Henry
Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }
>---
>John
Montgomery
>---
>Shigeyoshi
(Shig) Murao
>---
>Harold
Norse
>---
>Frank
O'Hara
>---
>Charles
Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]
>---
>Peter
Orlovsky
>---
>Kenneth
Patchen
>---
>Thomas
Parkinson
>---
>Nancy
Peters
>---
>Stuart
Z. Perkoff
>---
>Charles
Plymell
>---
>Dan
Propper
>---
>Kenneth
Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]
>---
>Theodore
Roethke
>---
>Hugh
Romney
>---
>Michael
Rumaker
>---
>Ed
Sanders
>---
>Mark
Schorer
>---
>Hubert
Jr. Selby
>---
>Gary
Snyder
>---
>Carl
Solomon
>---
>Jack
Spicer
>---
>Hunter
Stockton Thompson
>---
>Charles
Upton
>---
>Janine
Pommy Vega
>---
>Mark
Tobey
>---
>Alexander
Trocchi
>---
>Anne
Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]
>---
>Lewis
Warsh
>---
>Alan
W. Watts
>---
>Lew
Welch
>---
>Philip
Whalen
>---
>John
Wieners
>---
>Jonathan
Williams
>---
>William
Carlos Williams
>---
>Ruth
Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]
>-*-
>
>Hello!,
>i'm
listing the beat generation
>(writers
& painters & performers)
>&
i begin with a list, everyone
>interested
can propose a new name.
>http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
>thanks,
>Rinaldo
Rasa.
>30th
august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.
>
>-*-
>the
list of credits & comments:
>
>Walter
Campbell
<walter.campbell@usa.net>
>Timothy
K. Gallaher
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
>Richard
M. Kershenbaum
<r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>
>OHearn
<orpheus@in.the.shadows>
>David
Schwarm <dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>
>James
Stauffer
<stauffer@pacbell.net>
>Michael
Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
>-*-
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 19:50:39 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Rinaldo: Books into movies,
additions to your List
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Mike
Rice wrote
John Von Druten's play of isherwood's Berlin
Stories
> is
its equal, and Cabaret is an improvement.
>
>
Mike Rice
Mike, I
would differ on this, admittedly far from beat thread. The Sally
Bowles
of "Stories" is a much richer character than the fluffy feel good
girl of
Cabaret. The "Stories", as
stories, have less structure, but
are
incomparably more honest about that peculiar time before Hitler and
about
humanity.
Did
like Arthur's take on Lolita. I love
that film, but I don't think
it
stands quite on the same level as the book.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 20:00:08 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lawrence Lipton, etc
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>
> 2.
A first edition of a scholarly beat book I'd never heard of from the
> late 50's called "Holy
Barbarians" by Lawrence Lipton.
Anyone ever read
> this?.
It has
been too long since I looked at this book to remember it well.
Lipton
was a significant precense on the LA scene--in a way an analogy
to Rexroth in SF. Holy Barbarians was one of those attempts by
someone
with some academic connections to explain Beat to the squarer
academic
world--like Parkinson's Casebook on the Beat.
LA
beat, Venice Beat, has always gotten sort of short shrift since
Ginsberg
so completely owned the movement from a public relations point
of
view.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:37:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jim Carroll & Jack
>>>>That
url doesn't work, but I found the interview at:
http://www.booksmith.com/reader/carroll.html
Judith<<<<
Thanks,
Judith. Sorry it didn't work --- but, strangely enough, it did for
me...
Everyone else interested, follow Judith's lead... Take care.
*<><
& Kisses
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:42:48 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: OTR film
MIME-Version:
1.0
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LYSDEXIC
wrote:
>
> I
think Eddie Murphy should play all the parts.
Hey,
dyslecix, how about Bill Murray in a few bit parts and Judge
Rheinhold
(sp) was good as a straight man in both Fast Times and with
Eddie
in Beverly Hills cops. It could be
their reunion. And Eddie
could
take off on a car chase, and then, they could just keep going. And
it
could go down the same street Bullet did.
Yeah, put them in a Shelby
GT. That's good. Maybe even, Steve McQueen, well, I know he's dead,
but
with that blueing stuff, they could paste him in. So, I think Eddie
Murphy
would be great!
Opps, I
may be the only one, but I would rather analyze Naked Lunch that
continue
this thread about a movie that none of us, unless Coppola (sp)
is on
the list, will control. It just seems
to have run out of steam.
As for
me, I am reading "Portrait of an Artist as Young Man" and
Embraced
by the Light and The Beat Book by Waldman.
If anyone wants to
discuss
any of those books. Maybe I am in a bad
mood, but, the thread
is
getting old.
Peace,
There,
I feel better. :-)
Happy
Birthday Bird!
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:56:55 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR film
MIME-Version:
1.0
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>
Opps, I may be the only one, but I would rather analyze Naked Lunch that
>
continue this thread about a movie that none of us, unless Coppola (sp)
> is
on the list, will control. It just
seems to have run out of steam.
> As
for me, I am reading "Portrait of an Artist as Young Man" and
>
Embraced by the Light and The Beat Book by Waldman. If anyone wants to
>
discuss any of those books. Maybe I am
in a bad mood, but, the thread
> is
getting old.
bentz-
glad someone finally said it.
>
Peace,
>
>
There, I feel better. :-)
>
>
Happy Birthday Bird!
> --
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:01:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR movie: Sean Penn?
In a
message dated 97-08-27 01:04:56 EDT, you write:
<<
Neal might be doable... but jack... no way. Stare at that face, listen to
that voice, try to crawl into that mind
(mined with mines). Find one actor
today who can convince me he's jack kerouac,
or even anything close to that.
>>
The
book is a novel (fiction). The character is Sal Paradise. It is not Jack
Kerouac.
I think it is possible that a movie can be made of On The Road that
will
inspire a new generation of people by showing the character's outlook on
life,
just like the book did.
The
book On The Road is just a written recording of how Jack viewed his own
life.
People often mistake it for gospel. I think Jack wrote about honesty of
emotions,
not honesty of events.
However,
I also think that it is more likely that the movie will suck because
they
may be more concerned with making a blockbuster, rather then a great
movie.
The point is to make a movie that stands the test of time. I don't
care
who the star of the movie is. I think they should pick unknowns, don't
try to
make a "Hip" movie, and let the story stand on it's own merits.
It took
years for Its A Wonderful Life to find its audience. I would rather
find a
small audience for the movie in the beginning that grows as the years
go by.
I wouldn't want the same audience that loves Stallone and Arnold
Schwartzinegger
(what ever his name is) to love On The Road.
so it
goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:01:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly
In a
message dated 97-05-23 12:48:31 EDT, you write:
<< I
am in the editing stage of Vol. I, No. 2 and
writing Looking For Jack: The
Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac for
publication this summer. >>
Hi
Paul:
How's
it going. Can you send me info on your subscription rates to include in
the
next issue of DHARMA beat.
thanks,
later
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:08:20 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
Two
other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think
conveyed
and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and
Slaughter
House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that
capture
the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very
difficult
subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?
just
the way I see it, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:08:26 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: DHARMA beat, A Jack Kerouac Newszine
Hello:
DHARMA
beat, a Jack Kerouac publication, will be publishing the fall issue in
October
(issue 9).
We are
looking for Kerouac related events to list in our Kerouac Calender. If
you are
having a Kerouac reading, or commemoration of his life, or film
festival,
or anything that includes Kerouac, please forward information
related
to the event (name, time, place, telephone number, description of
event).
Looking for events starting October 1.
We are
always looking for articles on or about Kerouac's life and writing.
Please
send any ideas that you may have.
And if
you have an interesting On The Road story, please let me know. Like
the
first time you read it, what happened as a result, etc.
thanks
and enjoy, Attila
The
following is general information about DHARMA beat (previously e mailed).
DHARMA
beat is a newszine (newsletter) that is published twice a year about
Kerouac's
life and writing. Issue 8 (Spring 1997) was recently published. We
publish
information of interest about Kerouac events and happenings around
the
world. The most recent issue has an article about Kerouac living in Ozone
Park,
New York; an article about Jack's sister Nin; and Allen Ginsberg
provided
two dreams that he had where he's talking with Kerouac. Ginsberg
wrote :
"Poetry
America was born before us & will live after us -- and would've been
visible
for every eye to see but for the scientists of poetry & sociologists
of
Academy measuring the vast mind with monkey calipers & teaspoons of ink
--"
DHARMA
beat is published twice a year, spring and fall. Subscriptions are
$7.00
per year (two issues, make checks payable to DHARMA beat), $10 to
Canada
and overseas (payable in US dollars or equivalent foreign currency).
Sample
copies are available for $3.00. Mail to DHARMA beat, PO BOX 1753,
Lowell
MA, 01853-1753. For more information e mail to KEROUACZIN@AOL.COM
We are
always looking for articles and information about any Kerouac related
item
you may have (for example if you have a Kerouac Poetry reading
celebrating
his birth or passing) or anything related. Our main purpose is to
let
people know about what's going on. The next issue will focus on the 40th
anniversary
of the publication of On The Road. If you have a story, or know
some
tidbit of information, please let us know (I don't really like using the
word
'Tidbit' but now I'm stuck with it).
thanks
and enjoy, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 06:54:26 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: book to movies
In-Reply-To:
<970831030819_690619973@emout08.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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i agree
with this one : both are wonderful,
alan arkin brilliant
performance
in catch 22. i can still see him in the tree.
mc
>Two
other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think
>conveyed
and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and
>Slaughter
House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that
>capture
the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very
>difficult
subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?
>
>just
the way I see it, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:42:32 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "P.A.Maher"
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
Attila, since I have so much to choose from recently it has delayed my
publication
(change of cover, added text etc.). I will have it ready for the
Kerouac
Festival. The rates are $5.00 (USA) $7.00 (overseas and Canada).
Vol. I,
No.2 will be between 40 to 50 pages.I don't take full-year
subscriptions
as yet until I can get on a stable publishing pattern. Take
care
and thanks, Paul...
You can
also mention the web page. It is at:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html
E-mail:
Mapaul@pipleine.com
Thanks
again Attila....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:00:21 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Two Comments & Beats:The List
updated 31 aug 1997.
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.16.19970830155811.27f72e58@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
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Donald
Allen
---
Amari
Baraka (Leroi Jones)
---
Wallace
Berman
---
Paul
Blackburn [Black Mountain School]
---
Robin
Blaser
---
Richard
Brautigan
---
Bonnie
Bremser
---
Ray
Bremser
---
Chandler
Brossard
---
Lenny
Bruce
---
Lord
Buckley
---
Charles
Bukowski {16 aug 1920 - 10 mar 1994} "Henry Chinaski"
---
William
S. Burroughs {5 Feb 1914 - 2 Aug 1997} "Bull Hubbard,
Frank Carmody,
Will Dennison,
Old Bull
Lee"
---
William
S. Burroughs Jr.
---
John
Cage {5 sep 1912 - 12 ago 1992} [Black
Mountain School]
---
Caleb
Carr
---
Lucien
Carr "Damion"
---
Paul
Carroll
---
Louis R
Cartwright
---
Carolyn
Cassady "Camille"
---
Neal
Cassady {8 Feb 1926 - 4 Feb 1968} "Cody Pomeray, Dean Moriarty"
---
Tom
Clark [Paris Review]
---
Andy
Clausen
---
Leonard
Cohen
---
Bruce
Conner
---
Gregory
Corso "Raphael Urso, Yuri Glicoric"
---
Robert
Creeley [Black Mountain School]
---
Henry
Cru "Remi Boncoeur"
---
Jay
deFeo
---
Diane
DiPrima
---
John
Doe
---
Kirby
Doyle
---
Edward
Dorn [Black Mountain School]
---
Robert
Duncan [Black Mountain School]
---
Bob
Dylan
---
Kenward
Elmslie [Z]
---
William
Everson (Brother Antoninus)
---
Larry
Fagin [Adventures in Poetry]
---
Richard
Farina
---
Lawrence
Ferlinghetti [San Francisco Poetry Reinassance]
"Lorenzo Monsanto,
Larry O'Hara
Danny
Richman"
---
Charles
Foster
---
Robert
Frank
---
James
Gauerholz
---
Allen
Ginsberg {3 Jun 1926 - 5 Apr 1997} "Irving Garden, Adam Morand
Alvah Goldbook, Leon Levinsky
Carlo
Marx"
---
John
Giorno
---
Paul
Goodman
---
Morris
Graves
---
Brion
Gysin
---
Dave
Hazelwood
---
William
Inge
---
Wally
Hedrick [Gallery Six]
---
John
Clellon Holmes
---
Herbert
Huncke
---
Ted
Joans [Jazz Poetry]
---
Joyce
Johnson
---
Lenore
Kandel
---
Bob
Kaufman { 18 Apr 1925 - 12 Jan 1986 }
---
Robert
Kelly
---
Jack
Kerouac { 12 Mar 1922 - 21 Oct 1969 } "Jack Duluoz,
Leo
Percepied, Ray Smith,
Jack, Peter
Martin,
Sal
Paradise"
---
Jan
Kerouac
---
Ken
Kesey
---
Franz
Kline
---
Seymour
Krim
---
Paul
Krassner [Realist]
---
Art
Kunkin [Freep]
---
Tuli
Kupferberg [Birth]
---
Joanne
Kyger
---
Philip
Lamantia
---
Jay
Landesman
---
Fran
Landesman
---
James
Laughlin
---
Denise
Levertov [Black Mountain School]
---
Timothy
Leary
---
Lawrence
Lipton [The Holy Barbarians]
---
Ron
Loewinsohn
---
Malcom
Lowry
---
Bill
MacNeill
---
Norman
Mailer
---
Gerard
Malanga
---
Edward
Marshall
---
Peter
Martin
---
Lewis
McAdams
---
Joanna
McClure
---
Michael
McClure
---
Taylor
Mead
---
David
Meltzer
---
Jack
Micheline
---
Henry
Miller { 26 Dic 1891 - 8 Jun 1980 }
---
John
Montgomery
---
Shigeyoshi
(Shig) Murao
---
Harold
Norse
---
Frank
O'Hara
---
David
Ohle
---
Charles
Olson {27 dic 1910 - 10 jan 1970}[Black Mountain School]
---
Peter
Orlovsky
---
Kenneth
Patchen
---
Thomas
Parkinson
---
Nancy
Peters
---
Stuart
Z. Perkoff
---
Charles
Plymell
---
Dan
Propper
---
Kenneth
Rexroth {22 dic 1905-1982}[Berkeley Reinassance]
---
Theodore
Roethke
---
Hugh
Romney
---
Michael
Rumaker
---
Ed
Sanders
---
Mark
Schorer
---
Hubert
Jr. Selby
---
Gary
Snyder
---
Carl
Solomon
---
Jack
Spicer
---
Hunter
Stockton Thompson
---
Charles
Upton
---
Janine
Pommy Vega
---
Mark
Tobey
---
Alexander
Trocchi
---
Anne
Waldman [St. Mark's Poetry Project, New York]
---
Lewis
Warsh
---
Alan W.
Watts "Arthur Whane, Alex Aums"
---
Lew
Welch
---
Philip
Whalen
---
John
Wieners [Black Mountain School]
---
Jonathan
Williams
---
William
Carlos Williams {17 sep 1883-4 mar 1963}
---
Ruth
Witt-Diamant [San Francisco's Poetry Center]
-*-
Hello!,
i'm
listing the beat generation
(writers
& painters & performers)
& i
begin with a list, everyone
interested
can propose a new name.
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/home.htm
thanks,
Rinaldo
Rasa.
31th
august 1997, Venice-Mestre, Italy.
-*-
the
list of credits & comments:
Walter
Campbell
<walter.campbell@usa.net>
Greg Christy <christyg@pcpartner.net>
Patricia
Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Timothy
K. Gallaher
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Richard
M. Kershenbaum
<r-kershenbaum@UKANS.EDU>
OHearn
<orpheus@in.the.shadows>
Mike
Rice
<mrice@centuryinter.net>
David
Schwarm
<dschwarm@sun3.lib.uci.edu>
James
Stauffer
<stauffer@pacbell.net>
Michael
Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
-*-
Addenda
comments:
1.
Subject: Re: William Inge ==========================
At
17.03 30/08/97 -0400,
Mike
Rice <mrice@centuryinter.net>wrote:
>At
02:22 PM 8/30/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>Hello
Mike,
>>i
agree with u, William Inge looks like Tennessee Williams.
>>
>>BUT
William Inge introduced the _hyperprotective_ character
>>of
the "Mom" that seems to yield gay sons & match the
>>origin
& development of some beat life...
>>
>>thanks
for yr comment,
>>saluti,
>>Rinaldo.
>>ps.
please, have i the permission to include yr name & message
>>in
the credits for the Beats database?
>>
>>===================
your message ===================
>>Mike
Rice wrote:
>>>I
love this guy's plays, at least Picnic, but he's
>>>a
sad homosexual from St. Louis, a newspaper critic
>>>who
idolized Tenessee Williams, and wanted to follow
>>>in
his footsteps. Tell me how he was ever
a beat.
>>>
>>>Mike
Rice
>>=====================================================
>>
>>
>You
have my permission to use whatever you want from
>my
note.
>
>BUT
William Inge introduced the _hyperprotective_ character
>of
the "Mom" that seems to yield gay sons & match the
>origin
& development of some beat life...
>
>The
above is very interesting, so why don't you discuss it with
>the
rest of us. It appears to be a pet
theory of your own,
>sounds
fascinating. It also implies that many
beat characters
>and
their authors are at least, latently, homosexual. Lets have the
discussion
>on
the Beat List, shall we?
>
>Mike
Rice
>
>
Mike,
i think
that i defend the presence of William Inge
(influenced
Tennessee Williams some beat?)
in the
Beats:The List.
a
thread regard the "Mom" is at the moment for some
reason
for me a painful.
saluti
Rinaldo.
====================================================
2.
Return-Path:
<christyg@pcpartner.net>
Reply-To:
<christyg@pcpartner.net>
From:
"Greg Christy" <christyg@pcpartner.net>
To:
"Rinaldo Rasa" <rasa@gpnet.it>
Subject:
Re: the beats list
Date:
Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:04:07 -0000
X-MSMail-Priority:
Normal
----------
>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rasa@gpnet.it>
>
Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration
>
Subject: the beats list
>
Date: Wednesday, August 27, 1997 10:08 PM
>ken
kesey,i don't think so! I'm not sure he would either.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:04:09 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Rinaldo: Books into movies,
additions to your List
In-Reply-To:
<970830174526_1187896134@emout04.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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Arthur,
Mike & James e others friends,
the
list of "who is better" is useful, thanks from
the
people who cant' read the original at first,
i.e. i
read "On The Road" in 1969 in an italian
translation,
(not Ginsberg 'cuz of poetry is aside documented).
i think
that falling in love in Beat Lit is a matter who is
over
the stricted US world, but i apologie in advance
if some
myself consideration can seem to encroach on yr
own
territory. please friends, have a little faint smile
for the
european side of the world...
1.
"Blade
Runner" by Ridley Scott. William S. Burroughs had
written
the first screenplay and WSB & BR are/was for me
a
couple inseparable inprinting. the beginning of the movie is the
best
futuristic image ever seen. the city with rain like
tears
is matched only by the unforgettable William Gibson's
phrase
"the sky above the port was the color of a tv tuned
to a
dead channel" (Neuromancer), Gibson had his credits
to
William Burroughs (in an interview speakin' of his novel
Virtual
Light).
2.
"Der
Amerikanische Freund" director Wim Wenders (1977) was
from
the novel "Ripley's Game" by Patricia Highsmith's
&
is very great. Dennis Hopper, Man Ray & the good feeling stay
in my
mind forever. Perhaps Wim Wender is near the beat in his
photographic
works, his photos are sometime the best image:
John
Lurie's kiss photo in Soho (black & white photo) &
Hollywood
Bvd with star that "had the power!", & "Musso and
Franks"
restaurant,
"The Twin City Theatre", et cetera talk to me beat.
3.
"La
strategia del ragno" by Bernardo Bertolucci from the Jorge
Luis
Borges' short story is a must. i know that Bertolucci has
a
little to do with beat, but his 2th film "last tango in paris"
was
censored & the film burned & for a time Bertolucci 'cuz of the
movie
he lost his political rights.
thanks
again friends for yr patience,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 09:22:13 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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My apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a
weekend beatnik these days I
come in
a little late. I don't want to prolong the thread, but I do believe
that
something that Richard Wallner suggested needs clarification. He
pictured
on this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a
greying
man but with joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's
authoritative
stance might lead some folks to believe that is how it was.
Well,
not to my recollection.
One of
the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination with how
myths
are created. I was especially interested in what was being said about
my good
friend Neal whom I knew very well in the last nine years of his
life.
I learned that facts, especially as they
recede into history, are no match
for
deeply held wishes and beliefs. Still, here is also my opportunity to
let you
know what I saw. You don't have to give up any belief that you
prefer
to hold, you can always remind yourself that even the perceptions of
eyewitnesses
can have their vagaries, but I don't have an invested interest
to
revise history. Let me tell you what I saw.
It is
true that I have to strain my memory about the greying part. It might
be
playing tricks on me. Still, I have never noticed any greying in Neal.
If he
was beginning to get grey hair, it was not noticeable to me. And I saw
him a
lot in the last nine years of his life. Not at all. Nor did I see any
signs
of worry over losing physical fitness or agility. Up until his last
trip to
Mexico. He did not present a picture of a man who is getting weighed
down by
his age. He was only about forty two years old.
Graying
or not, he was not a happy trooper on his last trip to Mexico. He
stopped
to see me on his way and talked feverishly for hours about how he
was not
comfortable in Oregon, how he had expected that the lady that he
expected
was going to stay with him decided to go east with Ginzburg's
entourage
instead. He seemed to be on speed which might have been hiding his
despondency.
He was very animated and the fire in his eyes
was
intense. He was not joyous. He was desperate. Very frustrated. A man who
was not
comfortable in any of the scenes he was revisiting. He was hoping to
find
something to lift his spirits in Mexico, but at the moment, everything
that he
counted on was failing him.
Neal
stopped to see most of the friends that he could find on the way to his
last
trip to Mexico. He visited John Bryant for example in LA. John thinks
in
retrospect that Neal might have been hoping that someone would stop him,
would
throw him a lifeline. He didn't see it
at the time. At the time it
just
seemed that Neal was asking for impossible things, like could he borrow
John's
car for the trip to Mexico! It was a
man in despair who was going to
Mexico,
not a man with joy in his heart rushing to embrace the mysteries of
life.
BTW in
happier times Neal took me to John Bryant's house when he was laying
out on
his living room floor the first issue of the San Francisco Open City
Press.
Neal was the subject of that the first
free alternative publication
in San
Francisco. Later John moved to Los Angeles where he published his
paper
until he joined the Los Angeles Free Press.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:08:24 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Neal--Man and Myth/Leon's post
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Leon
Tabory wrote:
<snip>
>
>
One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination
>
with how
>
myths are created. I was especially interested in what was being said
>
about
> my
good friend Neal whom I knew very well in the last nine years of
>
his
>
life.
Leon:
I am
very interested in your comments on Neal.
Thanks for this post. I
was
going to write you an email and ask you to comment on music in
Neal's
life. Before I had read On the Road,
etc, I read Electric
Kool-Aid
Acid Test. So, my first image of Neal
came from that. He
impressed
me as a speed freak who was on the way to oblivion. Sort of
like
some of the depressed and burnt out speed freaks I had met. It
seemed
he was living in the past.
Then, I
read all of Kerouac's books and saw him as a "genius" who was
burning
like a supernova and too fast and frantic.
But a "frustrated"
one who
could talk, but not write what he could talk.
The
music in the acid test was not jazz and I guess was embryonic
Greatful
Dead. I know that Jack liked Jazz
music. But what about the
blues. Jack of course used blues in titles
etc. But did Neal listen to
music
like Jack did? If so, did he relate to
the Blues. I can somehow
see
Neal more with blues than jazz. Thanks
for your oral history. It
wasn't
just another who will play Neal, it was about Neal the man and
the
myth. This is worth its weight in gold
to me.
Last
point, but to stand accused by myself of my cry to stop the Movie
thread,
if we have to discuss Senn Penn, what about Sean as Sal, and
reunite
him with Madonna and let her play Dean.
Then it could be a
musical
like Evita. Then Madonna could win her
Oscar!!!! Sorry, but
the
mere sick image of Penn and Madonna together, etc, overwhelmed me
and
after some back channel posts on this, I had to lay it out there!
<snip>
Nor did I
>
see any
>
signs of worry over losing physical fitness or agility. Up until his
>
last
>
trip to Mexico. He did not present a picture of a man who is getting
>
weighed
>
down by his age. He was only about forty two years old.
>
>
Graying or not, he was not a happy trooper on his last trip to Mexico.
> He
>
stopped to see me on his way and talked feverishly for hours about how
> he
>
was not comfortable in Oregon, how he had expected that the lady that
> he
>
expected was going to stay with him decided to go east with Ginzburg's
>
entourage instead. He seemed to be on speed which might have been
>
hiding his
>
despondency. He was very animated and the fire in his eyes
>
was intense. He was not joyous. He was desperate. Very frustrated. A
>
man who
>
was not comfortable in any of the scenes he was revisiting. He was
>
hoping to
>
find something to lift his spirits in Mexico, but at the moment,
>
everything
>
that he counted on was failing him.
>
>
Neal stopped to see most of the friends that he could find on the way
> to
his
>
last trip to Mexico. He visited John Bryant for example in LA. John
>
thinks
> in
retrospect that Neal might have been hoping that someone would stop
>
him,
>
would throw him a lifeline. He didn't
see it at the time. At the time
> it
>
just seemed that Neal was asking for impossible things, like could he
>
borrow
>
John's car for the trip to Mexico! It
was a man in despair who was
>
going to
>
Mexico, not a man with joy in his heart rushing to embrace the
>
mysteries of
>
life.
And
this sounds like the blues to me.
<snip>
>
leon
Part of
my problem is that I will not go see the Doors movie, I will not
go see
the Hendrix movie and unless Leon, Charles P, James S and Gerry
Nicosia
all four tell me that I HAVE to see OTR, I will not watch it
either. I'd rather see reruns of 77 Sunset Strip or
whatever that tv
series
was.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:07:48 -0500
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
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Leon
Tabory wrote:
>My
apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a weekend beatnik these days I come in
a little late. I don't want to prolong the
thread, but I do believe that
something that Richard Wallner suggested
needs clarification. He pictured on
this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad
tracks, as a greying man but with
joy in his heart in the now, as always.
Richard's authoritative stance might
lead some folks to believe that is how it
was. Well, not to my recollection.
>
One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination with how
myths are created.
>
...
>
leon
leon ,
lo and behold this thread yeilds gold.
deeply appreciated you
sharing
your memory of Neal. I am stunned by how hard it is to glean
truth
from fiction. I knew William pretty
well, years ago at a party
here in
lawrence i heard a guy say that William was crippled and his leg
was
gangrenous from shooting up. I said
that was nonsense. He said it
was
not, that he needed a cane just to walk.. Well i argued some more
and he
said it is a fact. well i had been outwalked that very day by
that
old man. We had walked about 3 miles.
We had gone to some land I
owned
by the Kaw River, where I once had a demolition landfill. It was
populated
with wild turkey, kpot, and wonderous animals, on a wide bend
of the
river. It was a great place. William
hiked all over it. The guy
told me
i was lying to cover up. I gently told him he was a shit, more
interested
in attention and mean heartedness than i could stand. But the
myths
abound, people imagine and then can't tell that to say something
,you
should know something. Like some guy
indicated that William
dressed
like the blues brothers. It was weird,
where he got that.
William
would dress in khaki when shooting, denims at some events. and
beautifully
at others. I care not about fashion but
even I was sent by
some of
his style. The only thing i would notice is sometime he would
spill
something at dinner, grab the salt shake and pour it on the spot.
I
appreciate your story about Neal. It
doesn't matter to some people
that
these are real people and that their vulnerable sides help create
the
supermen stunts they have pulled off.
Sometimes william would tell
me the
same story , slightly different three or four, or a dozen times.
But i
learned more about exercising the mind listening to that obsessive
ranting
than i ever learned listening to the cheap shots of punks saying
dismissive
shit about things they haven't studied or thought about.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:17:25 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
In a
message dated 97-08-31 12:32:32 EDT, in response to Richard's artistic
license
while story-boarding the OTR movie, Leon Tabory wrote:
<< He pictured on this thread Neal's last walk
on the railroad tracks, as a
greying man but with joy in his heart in the
now, as always. Richard's
authoritative stance might lead some folks to
believe that is how it was.
Well, not to my recollection.
One of the main reasons that I joined this
list was my fascination with how
myths are created. I was especially
interested in what was being said about
my good friend Neal whom I knew very well in
the last nine years of his
life.
I learned that facts, especially as they
recede into history, are no match
for deeply held wishes and beliefs. Still,
here is also my opportunity to
let you know what I saw. You don't have to
give up any belief that you
prefer to hold. >>
And
without saying it, Leon has said it all.
Leon
knew Neal. He knew him from his own point of view. He may have, in fact,
known
the "real" Neal. Or he may have only known a facet of Neal, or he may
have
known the Neal he wanted to know.
The
point here is that filmmakers fictionalize and structure human dynamics
to fit
into 97 minutes with musical soundtracks. That's not life. That's not
real.
That's art, and plenty of liberties are taken.
For me,
and for many others whose lives overlapped (at least in the time
frame)
the lives of Jack and Neal and Allen, there is a context that cannot
be
communicated in film. Driving a 1949 Hudson because it's a car, not
because
it's a collector's item, seeking out Negro jazz in parts of town
where
whites don't go because black people are segregated, kept apart from
whites
in every sense by law, listening to the only AM station you can pick
up
outside a city, only at night when the ionosphere is lower and the signal
comes
in clear and being amazed at the lyrics which you understand but your
parents
don't, lurking in diners and bars sneaking cigarettes, fucking in the
back
seat of a car out in the woods where no one goes... no one... ever...
hearing
about marijuana as "reefer madness," understanding the division
between
"nice" girls and "good" girls in hushed tones and knowing
glances,
but
never using words to speak those differences, when all the boys wanted to
be
James Dean and a "hood" wasn't an abbreviation for a neighborhood...
and
most of
us were either innocent, naive, or buying into lies, before
assassinations
were de rigeur, before anyone believed in political
conspiracies,
when McCarthy and Hoover and Nixon could be assholes right out
in
public and get majority support... this is about 1/1000ths of what the
'40s
and '50s and early '60s felt like.
The
problem I always see in film that tries to recreate a period (and what's
the
point if you don't recreate it?) is that nuance can only be understood by
someone
who is able to suspend disbelief about the reality of the period. How
can
some actor, born in the late Sixties or early Seventies, even remotely
understand
what was behind The Road? Hell, most of them can't even tell you
the
name of the current secretary of state, or who was President during World
War I,
or which Roosevelt came first. Life has moved so fast away from the
sparsely
populated post-WWII world into the go-go '80s and the
god-knows-what'll-happen-next
'90s.
None of
the actors anyone has named could portray Jack or Neal (okay, Attila,
"Sal
and Dean..." get off my case, man...). They simply lack context.
And OTR
is a sacred cow of the highest order, because what kerouac put down
on
paper became a holy grail for millions who came after. The events of those
trips
became a road map for life for people like me, Leon, and the majority
of
people who embraced the truth of it.
Yeah, I
think the movie will most likely be a travesty, and I think the
reason
it shouldn't be made is because the truth will be repackaged into 97
minutes
of bullshit, and as Leon said, myths will be created. A whole new
generation
or two of kids will come up believing in the cinematic version of
what
happened, and will never read the book, and will never understand
something
that's important to understand.
Making
the argument is exhausting. If you don't get it, I can never explain
it to
you.
Amazingly
enough, I'm pretty sure my protests won't have the tiniest bit of
influence
on Coppola's approach or decisions. Go figure.
But
those of us who knew Jack or Neal, like Leon, and those of us who feel we
know
them so deeply in here (pointing to head and heart) will be the ones
batting
cleanup when all the myths become neat little music videos and pass
into
obscurity, made finite by their own unimaginative boundaries.
diane
de rooy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 12:41:47 -0500
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
In-Reply-To:
<970831030819_690619973@emout08.mail.aol.com>
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Attila
Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
>Two
other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think
>conveyed
and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and
>Slaughter
House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that
>capture
the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very
>difficult
subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?
>
>just
the way I see it, Attila
Has
anyone seen the movie Mother Night with Nick Nolte, Alan Arkin? I've
never
read the Vonnegut book it was based on, but i thought the movie was
awesome.
Kurt Vonnegut makes an appearance as a man on the street. I'm not
a big
Nolte fan, but i am more of one after seeing this movie. Some
wonderful
scenes. He writes his autobiography from prison in Israel
awaiting
trial for his war crimes (he was an American spy in Germany in
WWII
but his country will no longer recognize him). when he finds out that
he will
probably be found innocent, he pulls out all the ribbon from his
typewriter
desk and stands up on his chair. He says something like "They
say a
man hears beautiful music when he hangs. I wonder what it sounds
like."
He does it. the end.
leo
"Let
us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of
your
path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,
you may
present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly
will.
Ad astra per aspera." --Jack
Kerouac
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:02:36 -0400
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From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: book to movies
M*A*S*H
is arguably an example of a so-so book, a better movie and an
excellent
TV series. Rare, but it can
happen. I hope that OTR is made into
a
movie. I think, if done well, it could
convey at least some of the
greatness
of the book.
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:13:29 -0400
Reply-To: xcrslnk@rivnet.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "g. jones"
<xcrslnk@RIVNET.NET>
Subject: Re: book to movies
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i like
to read a book before i see the film adaptation. i feel like
i'm
cheating myself if i don't. someone mentioned 'the english patient'.
i loved
the book so much more because it didn't focus as much on the
english
patient. rather, he was just one of a few characters that were
the
central focus of the book. it wasn't as action packed as the movie,
but it
was more involved and there was just so much more *there*...
(howard,
you sound like my dad. he is a mash freak.)
Howard
Park wrote:
>
>
M*A*S*H is arguably an example of a so-so book, a better movie and an
>
excellent TV series. Rare, but it can
happen. I hope that OTR is made into
> a
movie. I think, if done well, it could
convey at least some of the
>
greatness of the book.
>
>
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:24:53 -0400
Reply-To: xcrslnk@rivnet.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "g. jones"
<xcrslnk@RIVNET.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
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hi leo,
have
you read 'a clockwork orange'? i just got it but my mom thinks
i won't
understand it. maybe i'm wrong. maybe sometimes it is better
to
watch a movie first? what do you think?
steph
>
>
Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
>
>
>Two other movies, besides One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest, that I think
>
>conveyed and translated a great book into a great movie, are Catch 22 and
>
>Slaughter House 5. These are two smaller, slightly eccentric movies that
>
>capture the essence of the the novel. Slaughter House Five captures a very
>
>difficult subject, time travel. Are Heller and Vonnegut beat?
>
>
>
>just the way I see it, Attila
>
>
Has anyone seen the movie Mother Night with Nick Nolte, Alan Arkin? I've
>
never read the Vonnegut book it was based on, but i thought the movie was
>
awesome. Kurt Vonnegut makes an appearance as a man on the street. I'm not
> a
big Nolte fan, but i am more of one after seeing this movie. Some
>
wonderful scenes. He writes his autobiography from prison in Israel
>
awaiting trial for his war crimes (he was an American spy in Germany in
>
WWII but his country will no longer recognize him). when he finds out that
> he
will probably be found innocent, he pulls out all the ribbon from his
>
typewriter desk and stands up on his chair. He says something like "They
>
say a man hears beautiful music when he hangs. I wonder what it sounds
>
like." He does it. the end.
>
>
leo
>
>
"Let us hope that the whores of evil no longer loiter on the doorsteps of
>
your path, beckoning you into the brothel of despair, and that hereinafter,
>
you may present them with the most rigid manifestations of a firm and manly
>
will. Ad astra per aspera." --Jack
Kerouac
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:43:31 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: book to movies
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I'm
surprised that no one has mentioned John Huston's chillingly faithful
adaptation
of "The Maltese Falcon," which gets my vote for a great book
that
became a great movie.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:39:04 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
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Patricia, Bentz, Diane
I am
overwhelmed with your so quick to reassure responsiveness that is so
richly
overflowing. Thank heavens we are here. We know we are here. We are
making
a difference. We come from a dark world with flashlights, with
rechargeable
batteries. Diane Carter said something about us being streams
all to
the same river, I don't recall exactly the words, too many posts too
little
time, well lots of pollution in that river, but it is not hopelessly
polluted.
Am
going away for the holiday, have a great weekend everyone
leon
+AD4-Leon
Tabory wrote:
+AD4APg-My
apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a weekend beatnik these days I
come in
+AD4- a
little late. I don't want to prolong the thread, but I do believe that
+AD4-
something that Richard Wallner suggested needs clarification. He pictured
on
+AD4-
this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a greying man but
with
+AD4-
joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's authoritative stance
might
+AD4-
lead some folks to believe that is how it was. Well, not to my
recollection.
+AD4APg-
One of the main reasons that I joined this list was my fascination with
how
+AD4-
myths are created.
+AD4APg-
...
+AD4APg-
leon
+AD4-
+AD4-leon
, lo and behold this thread yeilds gold.
deeply appreciated you
+AD4-sharing
your memory of Neal. I am stunned by how hard it is to glean
+AD4-truth
from fiction. I knew William pretty
well, years ago at a party
+AD4-here
in lawrence i heard a guy say that William was crippled and his leg
+AD4-was
gangrenous from shooting up. I said
that was nonsense. He said it
+AD4-was
not, that he needed a cane just to walk.. Well i argued some more
+AD4-and
he said it is a fact. well i had been outwalked that very day by
+AD4-that
old man. We had walked about 3 miles.
We had gone to some land I
+AD4-owned
by the Kaw River, where I once had a demolition landfill. It was
+AD4-populated
with wild turkey, kpot, and wonderous animals, on a wide bend
+AD4-of
the river. It was a great place. William hiked all over it.
The guy
+AD4-told
me i was lying to cover up. I gently told him he was a shit, more
+AD4-interested
in attention and mean heartedness than i could stand. But the
+AD4-myths
abound, people imagine and then can't tell that to say something
+AD4-,you
should know something. Like some guy
indicated that William
+AD4-dressed
like the blues brothers. It was weird,
where he got that.
+AD4-William
would dress in khaki when shooting, denims at some events. and
+AD4-beautifully
at others. I care not about fashion but
even I was sent by
+AD4-some
of his style. The only thing i would notice is sometime he would
+AD4-spill
something at dinner, grab the salt shake and pour it on the spot.
+AD4-I
appreciate your story about Neal. It
doesn't matter to some people
+AD4-that
these are real people and that their vulnerable sides help create
+AD4-the
supermen stunts they have pulled off.
Sometimes william would tell
+AD4-me
the same story , slightly different three or four, or a dozen times.
+AD4-But
i learned more about exercising the mind listening to that obsessive
+AD4-ranting
than i ever learned listening to the cheap shots of punks saying
+AD4-dismissive
shit about things they haven't studied or thought about.
+AD4-p
+AD4-.-
+AD4-
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:48:17 -0400
Reply-To: xcrslnk@rivnet.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "g. jones"
<xcrslnk@RIVNET.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
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>
The point here is that filmmakers fictionalize and structure human dynamics
> to
fit into 97 minutes with musical soundtracks. That's not life. That's not
>
real. That's art, and plenty of liberties are taken.
i think
i understand what you're saying and if i read you right, i
agree
with you on this! a lot of my friends go see movies only
because
they've heard the soundtrack first, not because they've
read
the book. and it seems they always have a totally different
opinion
of movies than i do! ugh, i hate that! they make me so
mad
because they'll go rent movies like 'natural born killers' and
'reservoir
dogs' and 'pulp fiction', and think they're such great
movies!
if the soundtrack was full of uncool music, i wonder how
they'd
like the movie then?! i hate movies like that because they
desensitize
(spelled that wrong i think!) kids. and it seems like
people
who can watch these movies have the nerve to get upset over
movies
like 'last exit to brooklyn', 'dead man walking', 'rivers
edge'
etcetera... atleast violence is portrayed in a realistic,
psychologically
thoughtful way! so what if these movies make us
feel
icky and uncomfortable. violence should make us feel that way!
(i
think i totally got away from the subject. sorry.)
>
How
>
can some actor, born in the late Sixties or early Seventies, even remotely
>
understand what was behind The Road? Hell, most of them can't even tell you
>
the name of the current secretary of state, or who was President during World
>
War I, or which Roosevelt came first. Life has moved so fast away from the
>
sparsely populated post-WWII world into the go-go '80s and the
>
god-knows-what'll-happen-next '90s.
*frowns*
you should be more optimistic. well, you should try atleast.
i don't
think most actors are completely ignorant of the history of
the
world before they existed. yeah, times have changed. and they'll
continue
to change. but how you can blame kids for the way they turn
out
when the parents are responsible? well, to a point. i know us
kids
have minds of our own and we stop listening to our parents and
think
for ourselves at some point. but if we are raised well, i think
we
won't turn away from what we've been taught. (sorry i don't speak
as well
as you guys do. i hope i get my point across okay.)
steph
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:11:21 -0500
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From: Tolga Yilmaz
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Hi.
DOes anyone have a soft copy of Jack Kerouac's "The Origins of the
Beat
Generation" that appeared in Playboy June 1959. I'd appreciate if you
replied.
Tolga
Yilmaz. tolga@gibbs.physics.indiana.edu
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 03:56:09 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
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Subject: OTR: Dean & women
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Back to
the book itself. Some passages that are stiking me this time
through.
pg. 132
"Only
a guy who's spent five years in jail can go to such maniacal
helpless
extremes; beseeching at the portals of the soft source, mad with
a
completely physical realization of the origins of life-bliss; blindly
seeking
to return the way he came. This is the
result of years looking
at sexy
pictures behind bars; evaluating the hardness of the steel walls
and the
soft of the woman who is not there.
Prison is where you promise
yourself
the right to live. Dean had never seen
his mother's face.
Every
new girl, every new wife, every new child was an addition to his
bleak
impoverishment. Where was his
father?--old bum Dean Moriarty the
Tinsmith,
riding freights, working as a scullion in the railroad
cookshacks,
stumbling, down-crashing in wino alley nights expiring on
coal
piles, dropping his yellow teeth one by one in the gutters of the
West. Dean had every right to die the sweet deaths
of complete love of
his
Marylou. I didn't want to
interfere. I just wanted to
follow."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:58:39 -0400
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Neal....
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I think
my words have been confused. What I
meant was that including a
shot of
Neal walking down the tracks, counting the tracks, at the end of
the OTR
movie, would show that even in a world of sadness and despair,
Neal
Cassady was the sort who could find joy.
I think that what Kerouac
learned
from Neal Cassady and others was something of the holiness of
life,
of how everything, every moment is sacred and should be
appreciated. Even at the end of his life, apparently at a
low point
emotionally
and in other ways...alone, broke, and lost on a railroad
track
in Mexico, the myth at least is that he still found life sacred and
special,
that he still found the littlest things wonderous. So he
started
to count the tracks because they were there, because they were
part of
the world and therefore sacred.
Yes its
probably a myth...he was coming down likely from whatever
high he
was on and was probably counting the tracks in a
futile
attempt to stay awake and not fall asleep and freeze to death
But who
cares...what we celebrate is the myth of the man anyway. Jack
Kerouac
celebrated the indominatable spirit of Neal Cassady. So did
Allen
Ginsberg, John Clellon Holmes and the others who wrote about him.
Leon,
in his terrific post, claims that he is not a revisionist historian
and prefers
the facts. The "facts" are
that "On the Road" was written
about a
hard-core thief, hustler and junkie who used everyone he ever
knew
and didnt care who he hurt. But
regardless of that, it is also true
that
people loved Neal Cassady...they loved him because deep down he was
wide-eyed
and innocent and still a child, living among sad grown people
who had
lost their childhoods long ago.
In
Carolyn Cassady's "Off the Road" there is a pic of Neal taken shortly
before
he died, and he looks terrible..strung out, tired, beat...but
smiling. Maybe this isnt the Neal that Leon
knew. But pictures dont
lie. I get the impression that Jack Kerouac was
much more miserable
at the
end of his life than Neal Cassady.
So I
dont think the movie needs to show Neal at the end as a miserable,
broken
man. Show that he was beaten a lot by
life but also show that his
spirit
never died. Even those who knew him
would say that.
That
isnt being a revisionist historian. The
facts arent being changed.
Just given
a more palatable interpretation.
Richard
W.
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:10:02 -0400
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
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>
>
Graying or not, he was not a happy trooper on his last trip to Mexico. He
>
stopped to see me on his way and talked feverishly for hours about how he
>
was not comfortable in Oregon, how he had expected that the lady that he
>
expected was going to stay with him decided to go east with Ginzburg's
>
entourage instead. He seemed to be on speed which might have been hiding his
>
despondency. He was very animated and the fire in his eyes
>
was intense. He was not joyous. He was desperate. Very frustrated. A man who
>
was not comfortable in any of the scenes he was revisiting. He was hoping to
>
find something to lift his spirits in Mexico, but at the moment, everything
>
that he counted on was failing him.
>
And I
would also argue that maybe he *did* have his spirits lifted on his
trip to
Mexico...since you never saw him again, there is no way to tell.
>From
everything I've read, Neal was a moody fellow who was always looking
for
ways to rekindle the spirit. There is
no way anyone can know if he
didnt
feel rejuvenated by partyingin Mexico and wasnt in a good mood
walking
down those tracks.
You can
also be a revisionist historian if you read too much into
particular
encounters and end up making presumptions.
There is no way
Leon or
anyone else can know for certain what was in Neal's head as he
walked
down those tracks.
So go
with the myth. It fits the legend. Beat bylife but never
completely
beaten spiritually...indominatable. I
still contend it would
be a
worthy ending scene for the OTR movie.
RJW
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:18:42 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: OTR:
Old Bull Lee
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The
introduction to Old Bull Lee,(beginning on page 143) seems to paint a
picture
of Burroughs much as one would imagine him.
Does anyone know if
he ever
talked about being pleased or not pleased with the way Kerouac
described
him in his books?
"It
would take all night to tell about Old Bull Lee; let's just say now,
he was
a teacher, and it may be said that he had every right to teach
because
he had spent all his time learning; and the things he learned
were
what he considered to be and called 'the facts of life,' which he
learned
not only out of necessity but because he wanted to. He dragged
his
long, thin body around the entire United States and most of Europe
and
North Africa in his time, only to see what was going on; he married a
White
Russian countess in Yugoslavia to get her away from the Nazis in
the
thirties--gangs with wild hair, leaning on one another; there are
other
pictures of him in a Panama hat, surveying the streets of Algiers;
he
never saw the White Russian countess again.
He was an exterminator in
Chicago,
a bartender in New York, a summons-server in Newark. In Paris
he sat
at cafe tables, watching the sullen French faces go by. In
Athens
he looked up from his ouzo at what he called the ugliest people in
the
world. In Istanbul he threaded his way
through crowds of opium
addicts
and rug-sellers, looking for the facts.
In English hotels he
read
Spengler and the Marquis de Sade. In
Chicago he planned to hold up
a
Turkish bath, hestitated for just two minutes too long for a drink, and
wound up
with two dollars and had to make a run for it.
He did all these
things
merely for the experience. Now the
final study was the drug
habit.
He was now in New Orleans, slipping along the streets with shady
characters
and haunting connection bars.
There is a strange story about his college days that
illustrates
something
else about him: he had friends for cocktails in his
well-appointed
rooms one afternoon when suddenly his pet ferret rushed
out and
bit an elegant teacup queer on the ankle and everybody hightailed
it out
the door screaming. Old Bull leaped up
and grabbed his shotgun
and
said, 'He smells that old rat again,' and shot a hole in the wall big
enough
for fifty rats. On the wall hung a
picture of an ugly old Cape
Cod
house. His friends said, 'Why do you
have that ugly thing hanging
there?' and Bull said, 'I like it because it's
ugly.' All his life was
in that
line."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:02:00 -0500
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From: Patricia Elliott
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Subject: Re: Neal....
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Richard
Wallner wrote:
> I think my words have been confused. What I meant was that including a shot
of Neal walking down the tracks, counting the
tracks, at the end of> the OTR
movie, would show that even in a world of
sadness and despair Neal Cassady was
the sort who could find joy. I think that what Kerouac
>
learned from Neal Cassady and others was something of the holiness of
>
life, of how everything, every moment is sacred and should be
>
appreciated. Even at the end of his
life, apparently at a low point
>
emotionally and in other ways...alone, broke, and lost on a railroad
>
track in Mexico, the myth at least is that he still found life sacred and
> special,
that he still found the littlest things wonderous. So he
>
started to count the tracks because they were there, because they were
>
part of the world and therefore sacred.
>
>
Yes its probably a myth...he was coming down likely from whatever
>
high he was on and was probably counting the tracks in a
>
futile attempt to stay awake and not fall asleep and freeze to death
>
>
But who cares...what we celebrate is the myth of the man anyway.
>
...
>
That isnt being a revisionist historian.
The facts arent being changed.
>
Just given a more palatable interpretation.
>
>
Richard W.
this is
nonsense. I understand that a movie
might be made and images
might
be used to convey the ideas in the book. I appreciate literary
license
and the need to use it both in books and movies. but to say it
is the
myth we celebrate and not the man, man the we is you, not me.
That to
me is hog wash. i find the drunken
meanness of jack k, the lost
black
hand of william, the frantic dispair of neal unpalitable and
necessary.
p
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:30:26 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: OTR: Old Bull Lee wisdom
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A
couple more quotes. I think we talked
before about Burroughs dislike
of Neal
and of wanting Kerouac to come visit without Neal; on page 147,
Old
Bull, talking about Dean, says, "'He seems to me to be headed for his
ideal
fate, which is compulsive psychosis dashed with a jigger of
psychopathic
irresponsibility and violence.' He
looked at Dean out of
the
corner of his eye. 'If you go to California with this madman you'll
never
make it."
Also,
in the car after he and Sal have been to the racetrack, Bull says,
"Mankind
will someday realize that we are actually in contact with the
dead
and the other world, whatever it is; right now we could predict, if
only we
exerted enough mental will, what is going to happen within the
next
hundred years and be able to take steps to avoid all kinds of
catastrophes. When a man dies he undergoes a mutation in
the brain that
we know
nothing about now but which will be very clear someday if
scientists
get on the ball. The bastards right now
are only interested
in
seeing if they can blow up the world.'"
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:24:41 -0400
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
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you GO,
girl!
whahoo.
and agreement
mc
patricia
elliot wrote:
It doesn't matter to some people
that
these are real people and that their vulnerable sides help create
the
supermen stunts they have pulled off.
Sometimes william would tell
me the
same story , slightly different three or four, or a dozen times.
But i
learned more about exercising the mind listening to that obsessive
ranting
than i ever learned listening to the cheap shots of punks saying
dismissive
shit about things they haven't studied or thought about.
p
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:24:45 -0400
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: OTR movie/leon's posts
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diane
de rooy wrote:
Amazingly
enough, I'm pretty sure my protests won't have the tiniest bit of
influence
on Coppola's approach or decisions. Go figure.
________
great
post, diane.
i've
been sitting on my hands and waiting for all this to pass by like the
hula
hoop once did.
i agree
with those who are losing patience with the casting thread (i never
had any
patience at all for the damned thread) and like you, find that
redeeming
value of this nonstop nutty thread has been leon's sure and
steady
voice.
mc
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 05:05:29 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
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>
Patricia Elliott wrote:
> I
appreciate literary
>
license and the need to use it both in books and movies. but to say it
> is
the myth we celebrate and not the man, man the we is you, not me.
>
That to me is hog wash. i find the
drunken meanness of jack k, the
>
lost
>
black hand of william, the frantic dispair of neal unpalitable and
>
necessary.
I have
to agree with Patricia for stating the truth so vividly. It is
the
human lives that we celebrate. And why
not remain true to the ending
of OTR,
where the last time Sal sees Dean in New York, he's in a car with
Remi,
going to a concert, and they won't even give Dean a ride. "he liked
me but
he didn't like my idiot friends,' Sal says.
"So Dean couldn't
ride
uptown with us and the only thing I could do was sit in the back of
the
Cadillac and wave at him...Old Dean's gone, I thought, and out loud I
said,
'He'll be all right.' And off we went to the sad and disinclined
concert
for which I had no stomach whatsoever and all the time I was
thinking
of Dean and how he had got back on the train and rode over three
thousand
miles over that awful land and never knew why he had come
anyway,
except to see me."
The
ending of OTR is very sad and desparate, "...nobody knows what's
going
to happen to anybody besides the forlorn rags of growing old..."
DC
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:53:08 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Rain
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Primal
Rain
Primal
connection.
One
month, one inch.
Brown
is
everywhere I look.
I am
not sure I care.
But
when it comes
I find joy leaping
From the pit
And
dancing on the grave stone of the drought.
Rainmaker,
rainmaker,
Bring
me your machine.
I cry
with joy to see.
Water
running down my windows.
I hope
again,
Believe again,
Miracles
again.
Primitive,
primal, joy of joys.
Rain is
just rain, is just gold and pennies from heaven.
I am
happy and don't know.
The
rainmaker takes my money.
The
rainmaker gives me honey.
The
rainmaker is god.
Primal
screams are silenced in the primal joys.
I was
screaming so loud, that I forgot I was screaming.
Til the
rain fell,
And I
could tell, cause I fell
Silent
To a
pool,
On the
sidewalk,
And
wept for something that is buried in my bone marrow.
The
rainmaker.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:04:34 +0000
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From: randy royal
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Subject: tell me more
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> My apologies, Patricia, Bentz, Randy. As a
weekend beatnik these days I
>
come in a little late. I don't want to prolong the thread, but I do believe
>
that something that Richard Wallner suggested needs clarification. He
>
pictured on this thread Neal's last walk on the railroad tracks, as a
>
greying man but with joy in his heart in the now, as always. Richard's
>
authoritative stance might lead some folks to believe that is how it was.
>
Well, not to my recollection.
don't
worry- i wasn't upset with you for telling us about neal. i
enjoyed
that. i probably will be lucky to get to meet jimcarrol at
the
rate everyone is dying. just do it more often
it really gave me hope for this thread.
like
patricia said the end of the otr movie
thread is gold or
something.
cya~randy
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:55:47 +0000
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From: Brian M Kirchhoff
<howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: OTR movie
Comments:
To: xcrslnk@rivnet.net
On Sun,
31 Aug 1997 14:24:53 -0400 "g. jones" <xcrslnk@rivnet.net>
writes:
>hi
leo,
>
>have
you read 'a clockwork orange'? i just got it but my mom thinks
>i
won't understand it. maybe i'm wrong. maybe sometimes it is better
>to
watch a movie first? what do you think?
>
>steph
i was
about to bring up clockwork orange on this thread and you beat me
to it.
looking
back over arthur's recent post on film
adaptations, i think
clockwork
fits nicely into the second category.
it doesn't mirror, nor
does it
try to mirror, burgess's novel, but kubrick instead creates a new
piece
of art, based on the novel, which stands on it's own.
the odd
thing about the film is that it leaves off not at the end of the
original
book (which has 3 sections of 7 chapters = 21 chapters) but at
the end
of the americanized edit of the book (which ends at chapter 20).
i have
heard different stories explaining why this happened and i know
that
now we can get the original 21 chapter form in the states, but the
film
will forever end without the 21st chapter.
this is unfortunate as
the
intent of the book os horribly altered without the ending. our
humble narrator
is left at the end of the film back in the same place
that he
started despite/due to the government's
intervention. with the
21st
chapter, our humble narrator attains a new perspective asnd
understanding
of life that is omited from the form most
americans
(especially
those who are too damned lazy to READ the book) ever see.
my
suggestions:
1. make sure you have the complete copy of the
book and make a mental
note of
where you would be had you finished reading after chapter 20.
2. watch the film AFTER reading the book. i believe the film can add
something
to the experince of "a clockwork orange," but i think you have
to know
where burgess is coming from before you can appreciate kubrick's
interpretation.
this is
in my humble opinion. this is one of my
favorite books, so i
encourage
you whole heartedly to stick with it.
Brian
M. Kirchhoff
howl
420@juno.com
"Being the adventures of a man whose
principle interests are
Rape, Ultra-violence and Beethoven."
-A Clockwork Orange
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:31:43 -0500
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Subject: Re: book to movies
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>I'm
surprised that no one has mentioned John Huston's chillingly faithful
>adaptation
of "The Maltese Falcon," which gets my vote for a great book
>that
became a great movie.
And the
powerful DARK AT THE TOP OF THE STAIRS. A great movie from a great
play by
William Inge.
j grant
Small
Press Authors and Publishers display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:36:05 -0400
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From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Neal....
In a
message dated 97-08-31 16:05:35 EDT, you write:
<< But pictures dont lie.
The
hell they don't. I've seen a dozen pictures of a single person and none
of them
looked like him... or at least, they didn't look like they'd been
taken
of the same person.
The facts arent being changed. Just given a
more palatable interpretation.
>>
Richard,
this just makes me flat-out sad. What a spin doctor you are. Why
don't
you go work for the government? I'm sure you could spoon-feed us all
kinds
of pretty stuff without changing the "facts" one bit. Keep us from
being
sad... make us believe everything is neat and tidy and tied up with a
big old
shiny bow.
Like
patricia said, embracing these real human beings requires being able to
see
them nakedly, all of their flaws and beauty all at once, and being able
to keep
those conflicting thoughts in one's mind all at once without needing
some
rationalization to escape into. Read "Scripture of the Golden
Eternity"
for
more amplification of this.
Whoever's
interpretation of OTR makes its way into the script and final cut
of the
movie, it won't be mine or yours. And no matter how passionately you
argue
your point about who Neal Cassady was and who really knew him, the
vision
of Dean Moriarty that makes it to the screen will be dictated by a
filmmaker's
Hollywood budget and the character's commercial appeal, not by
Beat
virtues or human failings.
diane
de rooy
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:33:16 -0400
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Neal....
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But
Kerouac wanted his readers to see the Neal HE
saw...his Neal, not
neccesarily
the
real
Neal. Jack's Neal was a very close
proximity to the real thing but
the
portrayal wasnt designed to be three dimensional. Dean Moriarty was
a
character in a story. Jack Kerouac saw
something in Neal that he
deeply
felt very few others saw. It was the
whole reason he wrote the
book,
as well as "Visions of Cody"
So it
isnt important to be historically accurate about the nature of
Neal's
emotions the day of his death. What is
important is to portray
what
Jack Kerouac would have thought. And
Jack would
have
thought Neal died the way he lived, and did not die a broken man.
In fact
I believe I read that Kerouac was in denial about Neal's death
and
refused to believe he was dead at all, that his "death" had to have
been
some Neal prank.
The
point is that we are NOT talking about Neal Cassady, but about Jack
Kerouac's
"Vision" of Neal Cassady. How
real does that have to be? How
real
was it in the first place?
If
whoever makes the movie of On the Road ignores Kerouac's writings, as
Leon
seems to imply theyshould do, and replace that with historical fact
that
may be conflicting or different, then they are not making a faithful
version
of the book.
Do you
think Neal Cassady needs to be portrayed as a sexist, racist
anti-semite
in the movie because some felt thats how he was? Is the
reality
more important than the "author's" reality? This is a novel, a
vision,
NOT a biography of Neal Cassady or a history of the beat generation!
Do you
want to make a film based on the real events that were described
in
"On the Road" or do you want to make a film of "On the
Road"? Because
you'll
find those are two separate things.
Kerouac changed facts and
events
in the book. His mother became his
aunt. He suddenly had a
married
brother in Testament, Virginia. This is
a story, its Jack
Kerouac's
story and you cant wave a magic wand and declare it non-fiction
just
because it was based on real events.
Neal Cassady died on the
tracks
in Mexico. So add one more scene,
showing the fictional Dean
Moriarty
dying in the same way, but postulate, as Sal Paradise would
have,
that he died without losing his spirit.
All
through "On the Road", Kerouac's Sal Paradise character desperately
wants
everyone else to see Neal/Dean the way he sees him. See him not
for who
he was, but for what he was. To look
beyond the reality and the
scars
and such and see the soul of the man.
It
saddens me that some of you dont understand how beautiful it would be
to have
a closing scene in the film that shows Jack's vision of Neal-- a
scene
that even in showing the sad circumstances of his death, seems to
confirm
how special Jack always thought he was.
Maybe
it sanitizes Neal too much but this isnt history. This is "On the
Road",
one man's vision. Show Neal through
Jack's eyes. Not Leon's eyes
or
Patricia's or anyone else's. That is
the only way to be faithful to
the
material!
Richard
W.
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:42:38 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Neal....
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Richard
Wallner wrote:
>
> Do
you want to make a film based on the real events that were described
> in
"On the Road" or do you want to make a film of "On the
Road"?
>
Richard W.
not to
pick on RW, but this snipped line seems to suggest something that
i've
found in this whole thread that just seems delusional to me. "Do
you
want to make a film . . ." As far as i know, none of us are making a
film.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:42:26 -0500
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Neal....
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Richard
Wallner wrote:
>
> But
Kerouac wanted his readers to see the Neal HE
saw...his Neal, not
>
neccesarily the
>
real Neal. Jack's Neal was a very close
proximity to the real thing but
>
the portrayal wasnt designed to be three dimensional. Dean Moriarty was
> a
character in a story. Jack Kerouac saw
something in Neal that he
>
deeply felt very few others saw. It was
the whole reason he wrote the
>
book, as well as "Visions of Cody"
>
> So
it isnt important to be historically accurate about the nature of
>
Neal's emotions the day of his death.
What is important is to portray
>
what Jack Kerouac would have thought.
And Jack would
>
have thought Neal died the way he lived, and did not die a broken man.
> In
fact I believe I read that Kerouac was in denial about Neal's death
>
and refused to believe he was dead at all, that his "death" had to
have
>
been some Neal prank.
>
>
The point is that we are NOT talking about Neal Cassady, but about Jack
>
Kerouac's "Vision" of Neal Cassady.
How real does that have to be?
How
>
real was it in the first place?
>
> If
whoever makes the movie of On the Road ignores Kerouac's writings, as
>
Leon seems to imply theyshould do, and replace that with historical fact
>
that may be conflicting or different, then they are not making a faithful
>
version of the book.
>
> Do
you think Neal Cassady needs to be portrayed as a sexist, racist
>
anti-semite in the movie because some felt thats how he was? Is the
>
reality more important than the "author's" reality? This is a novel, a
>
vision, NOT a biography of Neal Cassady or a history of the beat generation!
>
> Do
you want to make a film based on the real events that were described
> in
"On the Road" or do you want to make a film of "On the
Road"? Because
>
you'll find those are two separate things.
Kerouac changed facts and
>
events in the book. His mother became
his aunt. He suddenly had a
>
married brother in Testament, Virginia.
This is a story, its Jack
>
Kerouac's story and you cant wave a magic wand and declare it non-fiction
>
just because it was based on real events.
Neal Cassady died on the
>
tracks in Mexico. So add one more
scene, showing the fictional Dean
>
Moriarty dying in the same way, but postulate, as Sal Paradise would
>
have, that he died without losing his spirit.
>
>
All through "On the Road", Kerouac's Sal Paradise character
desperately
>
wants everyone else to see Neal/Dean the way he sees him. See him not
>
for who he was, but for what he was. To
look beyond the reality and the
>
scars and such and see the soul of the man.
>
> It
saddens me that some of you dont understand how beautiful it would be
> to
have a closing scene in the film that shows Jack's vision of Neal-- a
>
scene that even in showing the sad circumstances of his death, seems to
>
confirm how special Jack always thought he was.
>
>
Maybe it sanitizes Neal too much but this isnt history. This is "On the
>
Road", one man's vision. Show Neal
through Jack's eyes. Not Leon's eyes
> or
Patricia's or anyone else's. That is
the only way to be faithful to
>
the material!
>
>
Richard W.
richard,
you conveniently changed what you said and reinterpreted what I
said. It is like arguing with sand on a windy
day. I never suggested
they do
some damn movie in regard to the background biographical
material
of certain characters.. You continue to want to argue the
concept
that, wouldn't it make a great true shot if the movie ended with
the
scene of a joyfull dean at the tracks . In my oppinion we quit
talking
about that about 6 posts ago. but to
address that. i like how
the
book ended more. My posts weren't
addressing some movie. I was
responding
to the welcome change of subject.
p