=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:53:02 -0600
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
In-Reply-To: <343D14C5.4813@concentric.net>
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just a
few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -
after i
rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the first
time
she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to the
poetics
and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos
quartet)
but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one
eyed
shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.
(she
didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat
authors
were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up
the
"was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened the
more
she
realized
that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all. it
seemed
to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to
men??)
& the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed
upon
society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an
intellectual,
sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that was
her
name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the
"best
minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce her
poems
to city lights journal at one point...)
and as for the scholars of war and the
scholars of money - i think
that
come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major
world
power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic bomb
and the
creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early 50's,
as well
as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to efforts
to
retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer state )
couldnt
you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and the
"scholars
of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in post WII US
culture,
are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable car"
thatis,
a car with models that change after a few yrs and the introduction
of
various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a
conscious
effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the
economy
at the same levels of production as they were during the war, thus
providing
jobs & security for both returning vets as well as governmental
contractors...)
so is there really a difference b/t war & money?
hallucination
& reality?
but i
suppose i digress...
yrs
derek
On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, vorys wrote:
>
Diane Carter wrote:
>
> Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I
>
> read those beginning lines twenty years ago. There is something not only
>
> about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that
>
> makes it so almost explosive. In
my mind, the best beginning of any
>
> poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,
>
> aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness
>
> of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,
>
> the madness of America as a culture?
Is there any one of you who cannot
>
> identify with Howl? Perhaps the
scholars of war are now the scholars of
>
> money. Perhaps the halluncinating
has now become our natural state, our
>
> consciousness altered by technology more than drugs. I would say that in
>
> the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the
>
> state of America and the state of our individual lives. Are we still not
>
> burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry
>
> dynamo in the machinery of night?
Isn't that what draws us to the beats?
>
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:29:57 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: u2haikuEEE-E! THERE IS A MOUSE IN THE
KITCHEN!!
In-Reply-To: <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>
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1th
lift the
ring to
can edge
2th
pull UP
ring
IT WAS
GREAT,
PERFEC
T MISS
ION AC
COMPLI
SHED.
GREAT.
PERF
-
rinaldo
9 oct
97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:23:47 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: "The Long Beach Freeway"
In-Reply-To: <3437C1E6.779@midusa.net>
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The Long Beach Freeway by Gerald Locklin
(after MacLeish)
And here upon this brazen hill
this hill above the aimless lights
I watch the always going home
the going west into the night
the going towards two-bedroom flats
the going toward the blinding creen
the alcohol the marriage debts
the insane hours in between
the painful clock the cereal
the always sweating late to work
the water cooler pressured meal
the longing for the lonely dark
the lonely driving through the hills
the rock and roll the news the sports
the somnolence of lower speeds
the solitary cigarettes
and here upon a brazen hill
narcotic with the speed of light
I watch the always going home
the going west into the night
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:46:50 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Long Beach Freeway"
Rinaldo
- this is great what's the name of the book this is in? ciao, sherri
(e come
sta?)
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Rinaldo Rasa
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 1997 2:23 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: "The Long Beach Freeway"
The Long Beach Freeway by Gerald Locklin
(after MacLeish)
And here upon this brazen hill
this hill above the aimless lights
I watch the always going home
the going west into the night
the going towards two-bedroom flats
the going toward the blinding creen
the alcohol the marriage debts
the insane hours in between
the painful clock the cereal
the always sweating late to work
the water cooler pressured meal
the longing for the lonely dark
the lonely driving through the hills
the rock and roll the news the sports
the somnolence of lower speeds
the solitary cigarettes
and here upon a brazen hill
narcotic with the speed of light
I watch the always going home
the going west into the night
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:48:49 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Long Beach Freeway"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971009222347.0068892c@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version:
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On Thu,
9 Oct 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> The Long Beach Freeway by Gerald Locklin
> (after MacLeish)
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Classic
and modern on one tether - like Cocteau's films. :)
(I'd
chuck "somnolence" -
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Why can't it just
be, Michael?"
Simunye, in conversation with
Foosi, September 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:57:04 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Long Beach Freeway"
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSI.3.95.971009134737.27473A-100000@global.california.com>
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On Thu,
9 Oct 1997, Michael R. Brown wrote:
> On
Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> The Long Beach Freeway by Gerald Locklin
>
> (after MacLeish)
>
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
>
Classic and modern on one tether - like Cocteau's films. :)
>
(I'd chuck "somnolence" -
Ack!
Line noise pressed "send" before I wanted. In place of
"somnolence"
a
simpler quieter word: sleep, sleepy, dream.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Why can't it just
be, Michael?"
Simunye, in conversation with
Foosi, September 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:19:13 PDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Let's Discuss Something
Content-Type:
text/plain
Diane
does it again
leon
snip
>Diane
Carter wrote:
>>
>>
Let me take a stab at getting this list back into discussion mode.
>>
Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first
time I
>>
read those beginning lines twenty years ago.
There is something not
only
>>
about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that
>>
makes it so almost explosive. In my
mind, the best beginning of any
>>
poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,
>>
aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal
madness
>>
of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined
us,
>>
the madness of America as a culture? Is
there any one of you who
cannot
>>
identify with Howl? Perhaps the
scholars of war are now the scholars
of
>>
money. Perhaps the halluncinating has
now become our natural state,
our
>>
consciousness altered by technology more than drugs. I would say
that in
>>
the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the
>>
state of America and the state of our individual lives. Are we still
not
>>
burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry
>>
dynamo in the machinery of night? Isn't
that what draws us to the
beats?
>>
DC
>>
DC
>
>WOW
WOW WOW GREAT GREAT POST!!!
>
>Could
you give brief biographical information on that opening section
in
>a
few days? Who are these best minds and
why were they the best? What
>is
meant exactly by DESTROYED! ????
>
>take
care,
>david
>.-
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:07:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Locklin poem
Mime-Version:
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What a
treat to read the Long Beach Freeway poem by Gerald Locklin. The strange
thing
is that I had an American Lit. class from Locklin in 1966 at Long Beach
State
and I haven't heard anything about/from him since. I greatly enjoy his
teaching
and his poetry. Donald Winters
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:25:01 -0500
Reply-To: drilit@flash.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Darrell Byars
<drilit@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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Derek
A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
>
just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -
>
after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the
first
>
time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to the
>
poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos
>
quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one
>
eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.
> (she
didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat
>
authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up
>
the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened
the more
>
she
>
realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all. it
>
seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to
>
men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed
>
upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an
>
intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that was
>
her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the
>
"best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce
her
>
poems to city lights journal at one point...)
> and as for the scholars of war and
the scholars of money - i think
>
that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major
>
world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic bomb
> and
the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early 50's,
> as
well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to efforts
> to
retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer state )
>
couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and
the
>
"scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in
post WII US
>
culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable
car"
>
thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the introduction
> of
various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a
>
conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the
>
economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war, thus
> providing
jobs & security for both returning vets as well as governmental
>
contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?
>
hallucination & reality?
>
but i suppose i digress...
>
yrs
>
derek
>
> On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, vorys wrote:
>
> Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first
time I
>
> > read those beginning lines twenty years ago. There is something not only
>
> > about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that
>
> > makes it so almost explosive.
In my mind, the best beginning of any
>
> > poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,
>
> > aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal
madness
>
> > of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined
us,
>
> > the madness of America as a culture?
Is there any one of you who cannot
>
> > identify with Howl? Perhaps
the scholars of war are now the scholars of
>
> > money. Perhaps the halluncinating
has now become our natural state, our
>
> > consciousness altered by technology more than drugs. I would say that in
>
> > the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the
>
> > state of America and the state of our individual lives. Are we still not
>
> > burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry
>
> > dynamo in the machinery of night?
Isn't that what draws us to the beats?
>
> > DC
Hello.
My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.
I was
drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels" 20th
anniversary
celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of
night...
I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars of
money."
The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts
everything
they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?
Yours,
Karen
Eblen
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:40:36 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
Comments:
To: Darrell Byars <drilit@flash.net>
In-Reply-To: <343D59BD.2A37@flash.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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On Thu,
9 Oct 1997, Darrell Byars wrote:
>
Hello. My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.
> I
was drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels"
20th
>
anniversary celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of
>
night... I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars of
>
money." The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts
>
everything they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?
> Yours,
>
Karen Eblen
Karen!
I too
made the trek to Naropa's summer '94 bash, and had a similar
experience.
I was very angry, actually got quite mad at old man Ginsberg for
some of
his actions early that week, was very disillusioned but subsequently
got
over it (and now subscribe to this List). What was it about that
experience
that turned you off, anything specific?
email
stutz@dsl.org Copyright (c) 1997
Michael Stutz; this information is
<http://dsl.org/m/> free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL,
and as long
as this sentence remains;
it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see
<http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:16:08 -0500
Reply-To: drilit@flash.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Darrell Byars
<drilit@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
MIME-Version:
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Michael
Stutz wrote:
>
> On
Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Darrell Byars wrote:
>
>
> Hello. My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.
>
> I was drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels"
20th
>
> anniversary celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of
>
> night... I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars
of
>
> money." The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts
>
> everything they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?
>
> Yours,
>
> Karen Eblen
>
>
Karen!
>
> I
too made the trek to Naropa's summer '94 bash, and had a similar
>
experience. I was very angry, actually got quite mad at old man Ginsberg for
>
some of his actions early that week, was very disillusioned but subsequently
>
got over it (and now subscribe to this List). What was it about that
>
experience that turned you off, anything specific?
>
>
email stutz@dsl.org Copyright (c) 1997
Michael Stutz; this information is
>
<http://dsl.org/m/> free and may
be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
> as this sentence
remains; it comes with absolutely NO
> WARRANTY; for details
see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
Hi
Michael,
The event
did inspire me, and I'll never forget it. But, I was irritated
when I
learned from a Naropa student that financial aid for less than
wealthy
students had been cut off at Naropa; leaving less fortunate
students
in the lurch with incomplete MFA's. I was shocked by the
pompous
aire that most of the patrons exhibited, (I was a volunteer
seating
folks in the theatre, camping behind the school in a VW bus). I
felt
out of place. But my biggest let down
was the PC reaction to
Kesey's
"Twister," (I thought he made a point by not making one), and
the
talk of boycotting his performance because people were offended by
him.
The
good things-- I found Ginsberg (at least) approachable, and a kind
teacher.
Snyder was kind enough. I was able to have a real conversation
with
Ferlinghetti and Kesey. They each signed a book for me.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:02:26 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: yellow things not on subject
Comments:
To: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
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Good
for you. so sweet. do you boil it or nuke it.
I like nuking.
Leaving
Texas. I chased the edge of the same giant black cloud straight
south
through tex and okla. Ahead of me two huge seperate fatality
accidents
in the first hundred miles, draped bodies, accordian cars and
ambulances
coming from two directions, and miles and miles of stopped
dead
traffic. I saw the price of the wet highway and wished i was on an
el. But
in oklahoma loved the red river valley, and turner falls, and
thought
of a story plot, a woman living in Rundeep Oklahoma, right
outside
of still water. who starts as a wild
roaming youth wishing to
be
free, to travel and to be alone, who comes to a point of knowing that
a
freedom also comes from wanting to be with people, having someone and
to have
people to visit on the way.
Through tex i played "greaty country
artists do gospel" then spare ass
annie,
Austen symphony choir "American
Spirit" do da, and ww II tunes.
Played
johnny cash, bing crosby, and nat king cole tapes in Oklahoma.
In
Kansas turning right at wichita, (considered straight to salina and
then
right but literally saw the giant cloud speeding south so i left
the
thunder to say hello to you, race, played
Simpsons do the Blues.
loved
it, played it twice. into Lawence on local gospel station. I am
exhausted.
what a time
Met
your friend young william, talked at him, i came on a bit strong, he
said he
would try to send you a disc of his disertation. He thought he
had
your address.
I spent most of my time in purgatory.
my son was very ill, surgery a
success. As he got better he treated me as a slave,
and was a bully,
(sexist
remark warning) some men are shit patients. I fled when he got
better.
I visited a bakery i once owned,
called sweetish hill, it thrives and
was
still superb food. I went to two
readings, read at one of them,
great
events. lively poets and only one or two real clunkers. Very
active
literary scene in austin. I asked for directions to a used book
store
for cheap paper backs , got directed me to ever more expensive
elegant
places. Kick ass book stores, "Book Woman, Jakes, and finally a
rare
book store that showed me beat books in a glass case , wichita
vortex
($35), Ag's breething, ( little, looked liked homemade paper)
$100. .
I did go finally to half price books and pick up three nice
burroughs
books and an ann Walden book, all around $8 each.. I of
course
bought something at each book store but the rare one. there I
thought
I ought to sell my collection. or at least some of it.
I
picked up some young earnest kid at one of the readings, he puts out a
little
magazine with something featured on william every month.
I got a
copy. it is interesting. writers out there plying their trade.
Some
one should tell young pretties not to write poetry with a higher
ratio
of LL's and m's to g's and k's per
verse for a couple of years.
the lovely lilacs bloomed bloomed bloomed.
gaga agag faf
love p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:23:44 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: oops
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post to
david inadvertantly sent to beat. sorry.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:35:44 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jorgiana S Jake
<jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: just saying hello
Comments:
To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>
In-Reply-To: <343C5CFF.67B@comic.net>
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On Wed,
8 Oct 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
Thank god i have found some kindred souls to speak to!!!
>
Anyone know any cool groovy beat related places to visit in Denver
>
colorado? I also recently got a copy of "Some of the Dharma"
>
anyone else been enlightened by it yet?
>
>
Looking forward to getting to know ya'll.
I was
in Dallas this weekend for my 30th (YUCK) birthday and saw it.
It's a
lovely book and the way they did it is cool.
And (lucky me!!) I
received
the Rhino boxed set of Kerouac reading.
I put a CD in at night
and
it's almost like getting a bedtime story from the man himself. The
absolute
greatest!
Jorgiana>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:45:05 -0700
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From: Jorgiana S Jake
<jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat-l traffic
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On Thu,
9 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
Every list has its ebb and flow. Hang
around, things will pick up again. I
pl
> an
a long post on my trip to Lowell.
Anyone else have any comments on the
week
>
end?
No
comments on this past event, but I'm already saving pennies to go next
year!
Jorgiana>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:53:51 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
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From: randy royal
<randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Locklin poem
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i saw
in the very cool (now online) catologue from waterrow, that he
had an
interesting looking book of poetry entitled the *death of
jean-paul
sarte and other poems* and i was wondering if the poem is
anygood
since i sarte is pretty cool and i was just wondering what
locklin
is like. is it a good book?
randy
>
What a treat to read the Long Beach Freeway poem by Gerald Locklin. The
strange
>
thing is that I had an American Lit. class from Locklin in 1966 at Long Beach
>
State and I haven't heard anything about/from him since. I greatly enjoy his
>
teaching and his poetry. Donald Winters
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:58:24 +0000
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From: randy royal
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Subject: Re: just saying hello
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>
received the Rhino boxed set of Kerouac reading. I put a CD in at night
>
and it's almost like getting a bedtime story from the man himself. The
>
absolute greatest!
sounds like beat bedtime stories!
>
Jorgiana>
>
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:28:36 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Howl
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Howl is
one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century.
The other one
that I
like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock. But, we
don't
want to go down that road again, do we.
Howl
was a poem that bubbles over with its positive energy. The poet
has at
last discovered himself and in an excited frenzy takes us through
the
entire range of his world, experience, hopes dreams and visions. It
describes
too well the Amerika I grew up in and continue to live in.
Howl
awakened in me the realization that poetry is alive and well and
serves
a purpose to me. It wasn't just Fog and
Trees and forced
scanning. It did not have to be impossible to
understand to speak.
Howl, a
great great great poem. And a perfect
name.
Peace,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:41:26 UT
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: yellow things not on subject
Patricia, great to have you back. great story. sounds like you had a
wonderful
trip. you really gonna right that
story? i sure hope so!!
welcome
back,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:08:55 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Pits
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I hope
this does not seem to depressing. It is
almost spontaneous and
off the
cuff. But the result of several very
hard weeks of anxiety.
But, it
ain't Howl, no matter how you cut it.
;-)
Pits
Endless,
swirling, swallowing
Unresolved
consuming pits.
Quicksand
is better
Than
emotions.
Swamps
are better
Than
lifescapes.
These
pits,
Threaten
existence,
Make
death seem welcome.
Yet,
bowed I will not be.
In this
pit
Is this
path.
It is.
Therefore,
I am.
I am.
Therefore
path exists.
Time is
irreversible.
Irreversible
decisions.
Irreversible
me.
Yet, I redeem
myself.
In this
pit,
This
child,
Is
learning to crawl.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:15:15 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Levi Asher
<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Howl
In-Reply-To: <343D84C4.916E71E6@scsn.net> from
"R. Bentz Kirby" at Oct 9,
97 09:28:36 pm
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Bentz
wrote:
>
Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century. The other one
>
that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock. But, we
Funny,
that's also my other favorite poem of the 20th century.
Interesting
coincidence since T. S. Eliot was really a very un-beat
poet,
wasn't he?
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
|
|
|
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
|
|
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
|
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
|
|
| Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm
a man |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:54:51 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pits
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There
was a pit in the road I was on. Your
poem is a ride out. My thumb
was not
extended.
>I
hope this does not seem to depressing.
It is almost spontaneous and
>off
the cuff. But the result of several
very hard weeks of anxiety.
>But,
it ain't Howl, no matter how you cut it.
;-)
>
>Pits
>
>Endless,
swirling, swallowing
>Unresolved
consuming pits.
>Quicksand
is better
>Than
emotions.
>Swamps
are better
>Than
lifescapes.
>These
pits,
>Threaten
existence,
>Make
death seem welcome.
>Yet,
bowed I will not be.
>In
this pit
>Is
this path.
>It
is.
>Therefore,
I am.
>I
am.
>Therefore
path exists.
>
>Time
is irreversible.
>Irreversible
decisions.
>Irreversible
me.
>
>Yet,
I redeem myself.
>
>In
this pit,
>This
child,
>Is
learning to crawl.
>
>
>
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:18:12 -0700
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From: tristan saldana
<hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Beat Course at Berkeley
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Doesn't
this look fun you guys?
Graduate Readings: The
Beat Generation
TTH
2-3:30
R. Loewinsohn
Required
Reading: Burroughs, W. S.: Junky, Naked Lunch, The Yage Letters;
Ginsberg,
A.:Howl and Other Poems, Kaddish; Kerouac, J.: On the Road, Selected
Letters,
1940-1956, Visions of Cody; Snyder, G.: Earth House Hold, Myths
and
Texts, No Nature; a course reader can be purchased at Copy Central on
Bancroft
Way. Further materials (letters, etc.) will be placed on
closed
reserve. Students may also want to make use of the Beat materials
in the
Bancroft Library.
Required
Writing: Two 8-10 pp. papers, one of which may be a
bibliographical
essay on a writer or issue of your choice.
Course
Description: This course will examine some of the important major
work
(mostly the early stuff) by the four central figures of the "Beat
Generation"--Allen
Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, William Burroughs, and Gary
Snyder.
Students are invited to bring in Beat writers not on this list, so
long as
we can get an adequate number of texts of their work. We will
spend
the first two weeks surveying the historical and literary-historical
context
in which these writers and poets formed themselves, their visions,
and
their styles--the 1950s and the New Criticism. Since so much of Beat
writing
is autobiographical, we will want to spend some time on their
biographies,
letters, etc., as well as on some of the theory surrounding
autobiographical
writing. We will examine some of the ways in which the
Beats
continue important traditions in both American and world
literatures,
even while they depart from traditions and conventions. The
following
weeks will be spent on the work of the "Beats" themselves,
approximately
six class meetings per Beat writer/poet. Throughout the
course
we will try to pay close attention to the differences as well as
the
similarities between these four, and to the outside influences that
helped
to shape them, as well as the influences they exerted on each
other.
We will spend some time on the theoretical assumptions that
underlie
the creation of some of this work--notions about spontaneity and
authenticity,
about traditional forms and convention, about the relations
between
experience and its representation, about the relation of narrator
and implied
reader/listener, about the role of the poetry reading and
performed
poetry--as well as some of the critical assumptions that
affected
the reception of this work when it first appeared, and that still
affects
the way we read it now. Having said all that, I'd still like us to
concentrate
on the work itself.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:05:33 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: And why did he leave salina out of
the Vortex??(Re: Let's
Discuss Something)
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>
RACE wrote:
> Is there any one of you who cannot
>
> identify with Howl?
>
> It
is a bit bitter for me.
I don't
see Howl as bitter at all really. I see
it as a very positive
poem,
angry at times, but the kind of anger that is meant to move one
toward
positive change.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:16:45 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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>
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
>
just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -
>
after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the
>
first
>
time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to
>
the
>
poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos
>
quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one
>
eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.
>
(she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat
>
authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up
>
the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened
the
>
more
>
she
>
realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all.
> it
>
seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to
>
men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed
>
upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an
>
intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that
>
was
>
her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the
>
"best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce
her
>
poems to city lights journal at one point...)
I don't
see really good poems or really good writing as addressing male
or
female issues or as being written for men or women. All really great
writing
addresses human-ness, the common place were are all at simply by
virtue
of being human.
and as for the scholars of war and the
scholars of money - i
>
think
>
that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major
>
world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic
>
bomb
>
and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early
>
50's,
> as
well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to
>
efforts
> to
retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer
>
state )
>
couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and
>
the
>
"scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in
post WII
> US
>
culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable
>
car"
>
thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the
>
introduction
> of
various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a
>
conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the
>
economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war,
>
thus
>
providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as
>
governmental
>
contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?
>
hallucination & reality?
>
but i suppose i digress...
I agree
that in the time Ginsberg wrote Howl it would be futile to
separate
money and war. I think that today in
the U.S. with war more
or less
shoved into the background, that the scholars of money would be a
more
appropriate target.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:42:52 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "THE ZET'S GOOD." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Locklin poem
Gerald
Locklin had much of his writing published in the Exquisite Corpse (now
in
retirement) these last couple of years. However, he did publish a slim
memoir
about Charles Bukowski, which I would recomend to all. I got my copy
from
Jeffrey at Water Row. Jeffrey, you still have those?
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:27:09 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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>
vorys wrote:
>
Carl Solomon was not "mad". He and Ginsberg would have been offended
by
>
the term. Allen always felt a little guilty over hanging that burden on
>
Carl. Carl Solomon and my wife had a steady correspondence until his
>
death. He was lucid and funny to the end. ie. Ginsberg to hospitalized
>
Carl Solomon ..."How are you?"
Carl responded ... " I'm dying but I
>
have life insurance."
>
>
Re:Howl ... It's a wonderful poem and period piece. The original beats
>
have transcended it by living through it.
I
understand why you would think of madness as an offensive term.
However,
Ginsberg used the term in reference to Carl Solomon in Howl not
only in
the "best minds destroyed by madness" line but also when he says
"Carl
Solomon! I'm with you in Rockland where you're madder than I am."
I'm not
sure that it was a negative use of the term, but in a way saying
that we
are all in the grips of madness in some ways.
I also
do not see Howl as a "period piece."
It does what most good
writing
does and transcends time. Do you really
see a different America
today?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:09:30 -0500
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: (no subject)
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Thanks
for all the ideas you guys gave me on things to do in denver when
you're
definitely not dead. I'm going out to
visit my sister and need
things
to do while she's at work. I've got
some excellent starting
points
now. I'll write back and tell ya'll
what i find when i return.
going
mobile,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:33:40 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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>
Karen Eblen wrote:
>
Hello. My name is Karen, and I'm new to the list.
> I
was drawn to the 1994 Naropa Institute's "Beats and Rebel Angels"
>
20th
>
anniversary celebration by the starry dynamo in the machinery of
>
night... I left there horribly disillussioned regarding the "scholars
> of
>
money." The fact that the Beats are now institutionalized contradicts
>
everything they stood for-- maddness? Anyone?
I take
it you mean by institutionaized being taught at institutions? If
so, I
would disagree that is contradicts what they stood for. Getting
what
they stood for and wrote out there for people to learn from should
be an
important goal and something we should be happy about.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:39:23 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Howl
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> R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century. The other one
>
that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock. But, we
>
don't want to go down that road again, do we.
No, I
won't go there.
>
Howl was a poem that bubbles over with its positive energy. The poet
>
has at last discovered himself and in an excited frenzy takes us
>
through
>
the entire range of his world, experience, hopes dreams and visions.
> It
>
describes too well the Amerika I grew up in and continue to live in.
I
absolute agree. Not only did it address
American experience, but it
was
just the beginning of an extremely positive vision.
>
Howl awakened in me the realization that poetry is alive and well and
>
serves a purpose to me. It wasn't just
Fog and Trees and forced
>
scanning. It did not have to be
impossible to understand to speak.
>
>
Howl, a great great great poem. And a
perfect name.
Do a
little howling on the path out of the pit.
The move from crawling
to
walking is not as big as you might think it is.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:38:04 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Locklin poem
is this
where i would find the Long Beach Highway poem?
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
THE ZET'S GOOD.
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 1997 5:42 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Locklin poem
Gerald
Locklin had much of his writing published in the Exquisite Corpse (now
in
retirement) these last couple of years. However, he did publish a slim
memoir
about Charles Bukowski, which I would recomend to all. I got my copy
from
Jeffrey at Water Row. Jeffrey, you still have those?
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 04:43:54 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
i'd
agree, except that the scholars of money are still operating on the old
"defense"-economy
notions. this country still spends vast
amounts of money on
things
related to the military.... and instead
of sending young boys out to
the
slaughter, this economy is killing hopes, dreams, families, quality of
life
(and people, too) just as surely as any bit of war machinery killed
soldiers.
seems
to me they're still VERY closely related.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane Carter
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 1997 12:16 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
>
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
>
just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -
>
after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for the
>
first
>
time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to
>
the
>
poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos
>
quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the "one
>
eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards women.
>
(she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat
>
authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up
>
the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i listened
the
>
more
>
she
>
realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all.
> it
>
seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to
>
men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed
> upon
society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an
>
intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that
>
was
>
her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the
>
"best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and introduce
her
>
poems to city lights journal at one point...)
I don't
see really good poems or really good writing as addressing male
or
female issues or as being written for men or women. All really great
writing
addresses human-ness, the common place were are all at simply by
virtue
of being human.
and as for the scholars of war and the
scholars of money - i
>
think
>
that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major
>
world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic
>
bomb
>
and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's early
>
50's,
> as
well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to
>
efforts
> to
retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer
>
state )
>
couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of war" and
>
the
>
"scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same in
post WII
> US
>
culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable
>
car"
>
thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the
>
introduction
> of
various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a
>
conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the
>
economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war,
>
thus
>
providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as
>
governmental
>
contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?
>
hallucination & reality?
>
but i suppose i digress...
I agree
that in the time Ginsberg wrote Howl it would be futile to
separate
money and war. I think that today in
the U.S. with war more
or less
shoved into the background, that the scholars of money would be a
more
appropriate target.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:50:31 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Gary Snyder Reading
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I just
returned from hearing Snyder read extensively from "Mountains and
Rivers"
at Stanford. GS was in great form as a
reader, a tribute to the
age
fighting effects of Buddhist mediation and/or damn good genes.
The
Humanities Center at Stanford is doing a year long focus on MRWE
from a
number of perspectives. Interested
scholars might check out
their
web site http://shc.stanford.edu.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:53:50 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Luther Allison Memorial
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Not
exactly dead center Beat, I know but my
fellow Luther Allison fans
(Richard,
etc.) will want to know that Monday 13th in SF there will be a
benefit
show for the Luther Allison Medical Fund.
"Bluesman
John Lee
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:58:36 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Luther continued
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Excuse
and erroneous key stroke that sent my unfinished missive out over
the
wires.
"Bluesman
John Lee Hooker takes time out from the demands of launching
his new
club, the Boom, Boom Room (on fillmore for your hooker fans) to
play a
tribute to the late blues guitarist Luther Allison . . .Hooker,
who
toured Europe with Allison in '83 and joined him onstage at the '95
SF
Blues Festival said in a statement, "He was a gentleman I've known
for
almost 20 years and he was a kind and warm person. His passing was a
big
loss to the blues world." Hooker
will play with Joe Louis Walker,
Mitch
Woods, Ritchie Hayward, Coco Montoaya, Sistah Monica, and Liandy
Bianca
. . ."
Joe
Louis Walker is damn good. Most of
Hookers recent sets are very
very
short and pretty minimal, but he is still one of the great ones.
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:17:57 -0500
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L-Soft
list server at The City University of NY (1.8c) wrote:
>
>
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with
>
subject "Re: Pits" has
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>
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>
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 21:13:37 -0500
>
From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
>
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>
To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
Subject: Re: Pits
>
References: <343D8E37.13B8DDF1@scsn.net>
>
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>
> R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
>
> I hope this does not seem to depressing.
It is almost spontaneous and
>
> off the cuff. But the result of
several very hard weeks of anxiety.
> >
But, it ain't Howl, no matter how you cut it.
;-)
>
>
>
> Pits
>
>
>
> Endless, swirling, swallowing
>
> Unresolved consuming pits.
>
> Quicksand is better
>
> Than emotions.
>
> Swamps are better
>
> Than lifescapes.
>
> These pits,
>
> Threaten existence,
>
> Make death seem welcome.
>
> Yet, bowed I will not be.
>
> In this pit
>
> Is this path.
>
> It is.
>
> Therefore, I am.
>
> I am.
>
> Therefore path exists.
>
>
>
> Time is irreversible.
>
> Irreversible decisions.
>
> Irreversible me.
>
>
>
> Yet, I redeem myself.
>
>
>
> In this pit,
>
> This child,
>
> Is learning to crawl.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> Bentz
>
> bocelts@scsn.net
>
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
> i
believe i know where you are at. i'll
have you in my thoughts. nice
>
poem.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
Bentz,
tried
to send you this earlier in the day -- but
my
ebb
&
flow
have been in quiet a cozy
straightjacket
by Moloch since about
10 this morning....
But in the words of j.j. YES!
hope
that i will be able to sleep tonight.
I've been chomping at the
bit -
almost literally - to get involved in all these fucking jet fueled
threads. i am literally praying that the Howl thread
makes it to the
end of
the book and holy holy holy and all that stuff. Tomorrow though
i plan
to focus focus my psyche on the words "hysterical" and
"naked".
I'm
going to randomly post somethings now because i don't want to waste
any of
my precious limited beat-posts and be straightjacketed again in
the
morning. Maybe the second violation is
a cyber-lobotamy(sp?) :), or
electroshock
(i had a very dear friend who went through this treatment
named
Pam R.) My visit to Naropa was
COMPLETELY different than any of
those
i've read about today. Here is what i
recommend to all of you.
GO WHEN
NOTHING IS HAPPENING. I walked into the
building and FLOOD of
pink
energy smashed towards me enveloped me comfortably and my initial
paranoia
about just walking in were disintegrated.
I began to wander.
The
visuals on the walls (the ones in the frames at least) are
exquisite. You really can't do any of them justice
without standing for
an hour
completely alone in silence and staring until you fall into the
picture. You always come out better for the
trip. I wandered to the
left
and around and heard some giggling. Perhaps
it was an auditory
hallucination,
perhaps it was some naropa-ites (what species are they
anyway?)
playing hide and seek. I chose to
seek. I seeked and I seeked
and I
seeked and I even sought a few times.
Stopped at a meditation
room
and it said come on in. I thought ...
maybe this is where they're
all
hiding (and feeling a bit like Alice in a rabbithole) ... WHOOOSH
Royal
Blue energy and intense incense of Joy escaped from the room like
the
West Wind had been boxed by Pandora and left for me to open. I
browsed
in the bookstore for along time and almost bought some WSB
postcards...This
was the day of the Bardo in Lawrence by the way so i
was
thinking about getting the card and burning it outside at Naropa.
But i
thought better of it....closed my eyes and ... presto alakazam i
became
the flame at the Kaw ... and from my vantage point Patricia's
version
of the event was pretty accurate....
NOW.
Please
for the "beat straightjacket kid" Beat bedtime stories ... and
lots of
them!!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:26:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
Comments:
To: vorys@concentric.net
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vorys
wrote:
>
>
Diane Carter wrote:
>
>
>
> Howl still speaks to me absolutely as clearly as it did the first time I
>
> read those beginning lines twenty years ago. There is something not only
>
> about the power of the statement but the rhythm of the language that
>
> makes it so almost explosive. In
my mind, the best beginning of any
>
> poem, ever (someone out there is surely going to disagree with that,
>
> aren't you) And where are we now in terms of not only the literal madness
>
> of Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,
>
> the madness of America as a culture?
Is there any one of you who cannot
>
> identify with Howl? Perhaps the
scholars of war are now the scholars of
>
> money. Perhaps the halluncinating
has now become our natural state, our
>
> consciousness altered by technology more than drugs. I would say that in
>
> the forty years since this poem was written it is still defining the
>
> state of America and the state of our individual lives. Are we still not
>
> burning, searching, for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry
>
> dynamo in the machinery of night?
Isn't that what draws us to the beats?
>
> DC
>
> DC
>
>
Carl Solomon was not "mad". He and Ginsberg would have been offended
by
>
the term. Allen always felt a little guilty over hanging that burden on
>
Carl. Carl Solomon and my wife had a steady correspondence until his
>
death. He was lucid and funny to the end. ie. Ginsberg to hospitalized
>
Carl Solomon ..."How are you?"
Carl responded ... " I'm dying but I
>
have life insurance."
>
>
Re:Howl ... It's a wonderful poem and period piece. The original beats
>
have transcended it by living through it.
I'm a
gonna waste one of my precious post on this.
MAD is a relative
term --
kinda like crazy and nigger -- see since i'm an experienced
veteran
of the madhouses I can call other folks from the madhouse MAD
and it
doesn't mean the same thing as if someone without such life
experience
uses the term at me or somebody else. A
sense of family and
kinship
often develops in these places that provides meanings and
subtexts
that are frankly slightly beyond reality :) -- but we
understand
them well -- i recall reading in a bio about the incident of
Allen
and Carl and Carl playing the beginner for a fool in their first
conversation
by being a bit further out and i was rotflmao! The
listserv
i'm on for those with my disability technically called "bipolar
affective
disorders with psychotic tendencies" but i like to call "the
thing
hermann hesse had" is actually very affectionally titled MADNESS.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:02:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: More madness
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Diane:
I like your comments on "Howl" and madness. It's a topic that I've been
interested
in lately, Michel Foucault, the French
post-structuralist, wrote a
book
called "Madness and Civilization" which, although I haven't read it
all
yet, I
understand makes a clear distinction between the "holy madness" of
saints
and
poets and the "imperial unreason" of the damn technocrats and, I
suppose,
Dylan's
"masters of war." A lot of
books in the 60's dealt with this important
distinction--
books like Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and R.D.
Laing's
"Divided Self," Vonnegut's books, and of course Ginsberg who saw the
best
minds of his generation destroyed by madness, etc. etc.
Donald
Winters winte030@tc.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:13:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: More madness
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Donald
E. Winters wrote:
>
>
Diane: I like your comments on "Howl" and madness. It's a topic that I've
been
>
interested in lately, Michel Foucault,
the French post-structuralist, wrote a
>
book called "Madness and Civilization" which, although I haven't read
it all
>
yet, I understand makes a clear distinction between the "holy
madness" of
saints
>
and poets and the "imperial unreason" of the damn technocrats and, I
suppose,
>
Dylan's "masters of war." A
lot of books in the 60's dealt with this
important
>
distinction-- books like Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"
and R.D.
>
Laing's "Divided Self," Vonnegut's books, and of course Ginsberg who saw the
>
best minds of his generation destroyed by madness, etc. etc.
>
Donald Winters winte030@tc.umn.edu
I think
Foucault's is a nice twist to history.
I really enjoy
re-reading
Erving Goffman's ASYLUMS: Essays on the social situation of
mental
patients and other inmates.
Personally
i was working on a series of essays some years ago after
taking
disability from Teacher's Insurance Annuity Association to prove
that
the world was MAD and I wasn't and let's see i had a few things
titled
"The Reification of Medicalized Being" and "Symbolism and the
Abyss"
and "Paradox and Recovery" gave my last hard copies to a friend
and
Jungian analyst and he died of a heart attack.
The computer was
pawned
while i was in-hospital. I have not
located the stuff anywhere
else. But I no longer wish to prove anything. It takes little for me
to
accept that for now at least in this society I am definitely not
sane.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:22:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject:
Re: Liner Notes-Ginsberg's Holy
Soul Jelly Roll
In-Reply-To: <343D8E37.13B8DDF1@scsn.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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For
those who wanted to see the liner notes from the 4 CD set, ALLEN
GINSBERG:
Holy Soul Jelly Roll-Poems and Songs (1949-1993) Rhino Records
71693;
September 1994; $49.98 CD / $39.98 cassette.
http://www.bookzen.com/holy_soul.html
Great
set of CD's.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 06:26:32 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: More madness
sweetie
- are you ok? do you need me to talk
you down?
smooches,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
RACE ---
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 1997 11:13 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: More madness
Donald
E. Winters wrote:
>
>
Diane: I like your comments on "Howl" and madness. It's a topic that I've
been
>
interested in lately, Michel Foucault,
the French post-structuralist, wrote
a
>
book called "Madness and Civilization" which, although I haven't read
it all
>
yet, I understand makes a clear distinction between the "holy
madness" of
saints
>
and poets and the "imperial unreason" of the damn technocrats and, I
suppose,
>
Dylan's "masters of war." A
lot of books in the 60's dealt with this
important
>
distinction-- books like Kesey's "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"
and R.D.
>
Laing's "Divided Self," Vonnegut's books, and of course Ginsberg who saw
the
>
best minds of his generation destroyed by madness, etc. etc.
>
Donald Winters winte030@tc.umn.edu
I think
Foucault's is a nice twist to history.
I really enjoy
re-reading
Erving Goffman's ASYLUMS: Essays on the social situation of
mental
patients and other inmates.
Personally
i was working on a series of essays some years ago after
taking
disability from Teacher's Insurance Annuity Association to prove
that
the world was MAD and I wasn't and let's see i had a few things
titled
"The Reification of Medicalized Being" and "Symbolism and the
Abyss"
and "Paradox and Recovery" gave my last hard copies to a friend
and
Jungian analyst and he died of a heart attack.
The computer was
pawned
while i was in-hospital. I have not
located the stuff anywhere
else. But I no longer wish to prove anything. It takes little for me
to
accept that for now at least in this society I am definitely not
sane.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:36:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: More madness
Mime-Version:
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dbr: I
certainly don't see myself as sane either, especially when sanity is
often
the stark dismal reality of the technocrats and their ilk. R.D. Laing has
the
right idea in "Divided Self," when he sees the utter insanity of
sanity.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:44:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Course at Berkeley
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tristan
saldana wrote:
>
>
Doesn't this look fun you guys?
>
> Graduate Readings: The
Beat Generation
>
TTH
>
2-3:30
> R. Loewinsohn
>
>
Required Reading: Burroughs, W. S.: Junky, Naked Lunch, The Yage Letters;
>
Ginsberg, A.:Howl and Other Poems, Kaddish; Kerouac, J.: On the Road, Selected
>
Letters, 1940-1956, Visions of Cody; Snyder, G.: Earth House Hold, Myths
>
and Texts, No Nature; a course reader can be purchased at Copy Central on
>
Bancroft Way. Further materials (letters, etc.) will be placed on
>
closed reserve. Students may also want to make use of the Beat materials
> in
the Bancroft Library.
>
It
seems to me to give WSB short treatment.
just my 2 cents
dbr
of fuck
i haven't been keeping track of how many posts i've sent... shit
looks
like another straightjacket on the way...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:59:34 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: David Kerr <kerr@THEPLA.NET>
Subject: Australian Beat Lovers
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Hey
there y'all from down this way. I've only just joined, but I have a
question.
Does
anyone in australia know of any good beat happenings in sydney ?
Cheers
to the max
jk
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 05:15:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Australian Beat Lovers
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David
Kerr wrote:
>
>
Hey there y'all from down this way. I've only just joined, but I have a
> question.
>
Does anyone in australia know of any good beat happenings in sydney ?
>
>
Cheers to the max
>
> jk
Don't
know about sydney but if you're in an Allen and/or William mood
here is
some information from a cd liner note i have.
"The
indigenous members of Yothu Yindi are among the traditional owners
of
North East Arnhem Land, a region of Australia's Northern Territory in
which
Yolngu (Aboriginal) people have lived in relative isolation for
thousands
of years. The band hail from the
coastal communities of Amhem
Land's
Gove Peninsular.
Christian
missionaries sailed into the area in the 1920's . . . Royal
Australian
Air Force squadrons were based here during World War II ...
but the
Yolngu people of the region had only limited contact with
Balanda
(European) society prior to the 1970s.
Then ... the
multi-national
mining company Nabalco moved in and started mining
bauxite
from their tribal homelands.
Yoingu
people deal as an intrinsic part of their daily lives, with
cultural
responsibilities handed down from generation to generation.
Yolngu
society has a complex and elaborate world view, a sophisticated
system
of kinship, and rich ceremonial and religious behaviour. By
attributing
human qualities to all natural species and elements. Yoingu
people
live in spiritual harmony with nautre.
This is communicated in
ceremonial
song and dance.
Traditional
music performed by Yothu Yindi is that of the Gumatj and
Rirratjingu
clans who have lived in, and looked after, this land for the
last
40,000 years or so."
-- Andrew McMillan
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:24:43 -0400
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From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Locklin poem
In a
message dated 97-10-10 00:39:10 EDT, you write:
<<
Gerald Locklin had much of his writing
published in the Exquisite Corpse
(now
in retirement) these last couple of years.
However, he did publish a slim
memoir about Charles Bukowski, which I would
recomend to all. I got my copy
from Jeffrey at Water Row. Jeffrey, you still
have those?
Dave B.
>>
Gerry
Locklin's poems have been published in the Wormwood Review mostly in
the
last few years in addition to Exquisitite Corpse and countless other
small
mags.
Charles
Bukowski: A Sure Bet, Locklin's Bukowski memoir, is still available
directly
from us or at any bookstore - Borders carries Water Row Press books
as do
many Barnes & Nobles and independent bookstores.
We will
be publishing a volume of selected poems and prose by Gerald Locklin,
sort of
"The Best of Locklin" in early 1998...The book has been edited and is
going
to the printer in a few weeks....
Jeffrey
Water
Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:27:32 -0400
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From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Locklin poem
In a
message dated 97-10-10 02:36:05 EDT, you write:
<<
What a treat to read the Long Beach Freeway poem by Gerald Locklin. The
strange
thing is that I had an American Lit. class
from Locklin in 1966 at Long
Beach
State and I haven't heard anything about/from
him since. I greatly enjoy
his
teaching and his poetry. Donald Winters
>>
Gerry
Locklin is alive and well teaching English a Cal State Univ, Long
Beach.
I'm
sure he'd love to hear from you...I will send him a copy of your
message....
Jeffrey
Water
Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 07:39:53 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Patricia Traxler
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While
sitting on the stoop chatting with my elderly neighbor Frances, he
mentioned
that his bosses' significant other (he used the word of his
generation
"live-in") was Patricia Traxler.
I said small world! When i
was at
a luncheon at Patricia Elliott's in Lawrence before William
Burroughs
memorial service a woman (i have forgotten her name but
vividly
recall her face) asked where i was from and I said Salina, she
asked
if I knew Patricia Traxler. I said that
I'd gone to a few of the
readings
she hosts in the spring at the local Mexican restaraunt but
that i
didn't like them because everybody had their noses in the air.
She
didn't seem to understand what i possibly meant. The poets were
excellent. So good that I wanted to shout GO! GO! GO!
and wander
through
the place drinking my coffee. Such
actions would certainly have
had me
hospitalized :) I also recall her name
was on the River City
Reunion
program as well.... Small world afterall ....
In the
event that she ever would visit me during the HOWL thread, I will
ask her
to type a few words about HOWL and what it means to her.
peace,
love, and understanding,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:11:55 EDT
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:53:02 -0600
from
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Yes,
Derek, war, money, molloch -- all the same.
I don't agree that "Howl" is
addressed
more to men than women. If it's a
matter of repression, women, of co
urse,
were repressed by 1950s society even more than men, though ironically wom
en
(except for those like Elise Cowen & Di Prima who rebelled) were
instruments
of that
repression in some ways -- supporting move to suburbs, materialistic li
festyles,
work ethic and mainstream man-in-the-grey-flannel-suit values. At le
ast
this is one theme that runs through Beat literature.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:49:37 EDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Beat Course at Berkeley
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:18:12 -0700
from
<hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
I'd add
John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his novel "Go.
"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:40:21 -0500
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From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: I'm fine
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Sherry:
No, I'm fine, but thanks for the offer. Donald
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:58:24 UT
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm fine
oops,
it appears i somehow replied to a private message via Beat-l, dunno how
that
happened. ghosts in the machine... sorry Donald must've thought that
was
weird coming from someone you've never talked to. anyway, i apologize.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:00:46 -0500
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From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Thanks for offering to send my message
to Locklin
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His
American Literature classes at Long Beach was one of the most enjoyable I
have
ever taken. I am now on my second
sabbatical from my Humanities position
at
Minneapolis Community and Technical College.
You might tell professor
Locklin
that I still have all my notes from his class and particularly enjoyed
his
comments on "Bartleby the Scribner" by Melville. I still remember that on
our
final we were asked to assess all of American Literaure through the eyes of
Bartleby's
"I prefer not to" attitude. I
have, I confess, stolen Professor
Locklin's
idea on the some of the classes that I teach.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:11:54 -0400
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From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
Comments:
To: Darrell Byars <drilit@flash.net>
In-Reply-To: <343D65B7.5118@flash.net>
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On Thu,
9 Oct 1997, Darrell Byars wrote:
>
The event did inspire me, and I'll never forget it. But, I was irritated
>
when I learned from a Naropa student that financial aid for less than
>
wealthy students had been cut off at Naropa; leaving less fortunate
>
students in the lurch with incomplete MFA's. I was shocked by the
>
pompous aire that most of the patrons exhibited, (I was a volunteer
>
seating folks in the theatre, camping behind the school in a VW bus). I
>
felt out of place. But my biggest let
down was the PC reaction to
>
Kesey's "Twister," (I thought he made a point by not making one), and
>
the talk of boycotting his performance because people were offended by
>
him.
I wish
I would've met you there, as it sounds like we were in the same boat.
The
potential boycott of "Twister" by the overwhelmingly PC
"poets" really
got me
down, as did the near-approachability of most of the students there
--
almost all of them that I met gave off a better-than-thou air, and nobody
was
interested in talking serious about literature etc. (reminded me exactly
of the
vast majority of Oberlin students around here, what my friend calls
Trustafundians);
most of the people I ended hanging out with were, like me,
just
visiting for the event.
>
The good things-- I found Ginsberg (at least) approachable, and a kind
>
teacher. Snyder was kind enough. I was able to have a real conversation
>
with Ferlinghetti and Kesey. They each signed a book for me.
Yeah,
the big names -- people involved and doing things -- were all nice and
approachable.
It was great to just walk around the small Naropa campus and
be
running into all these people, and you could talk to any of them! Kesey
was
hilarious. Like I mentioned, I found Ginsberg to be very mean on the
first
day of the event but he later apologized and spent some time with me,
seemed
genuinely concerned etc. Soon after I left I wanted to go back, still
do.
email
stutz@dsl.org Copyright (c) 1997
Michael Stutz; this information is
<http://dsl..org/m/> free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL,
and as long
as this sentence remains;
it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see
<http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:52:15 -0500
Reply-To: vorys@concentric.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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Sherri
wrote:
>
>
can you explain why people thought Carl was mad? was it merely because he
>
thought outside the mainstream?
>
>
thanks, sherri
>
>
I think in this case it's necessary to
define madness. Do we still
consider
anyone who goes to a psychiatrist these days mad? The fifty's
was a
different place and mindset than 90's USA.
If you are neurotic, are you mad? If your
dealing with repressed
feelings
that are socially unacceptable ... are you mad? And who are
these
"people" who thought him mad? I don't know. Maybe there is some
confusion
with Carl and Artuad? Carl met him in Paris while interested
in
Surrealism and Issou. But it was
Artaud's essay on Van Gogh as
suicided
by society that caused Carl to reflect on his own life.
Carl was the first to introduct his beat
pals to "zen lunatics".
The mystic-visionary path that many beats
followed, to be free from
the
comformity of the 50's, turns now into Crazy Wisdom ... a form of
effective
action that is free of social convention ... sort of
spontaneous
site-specific theater.
It could be that these terms Mad, Lunatic,
Crazy, etc. become blurred
with
the myth.
And
maybe that's the real topic ... the use of Myth as vehicle for
disseminating
information.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:45:18 +0100
Reply-To: jean-ory@altranet.fr
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From: Jean Ory <jean-ory@ALTRANET.FR>
Organization:
altranet
Subject: Howl and Getting out
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Hello
everybody,
Thank
you very much for all the posts you send to Beat L.
As I am
under pressure, I got little time to say thanks and how much I
appreciate
Reading
the posts make me really feel good.
I am
a fan of a sentence of Antonin Artaud
who said about the peyote
and his
trip to the Tarahumara Land :
"I
went to peyote not to go into something but to get out of
everything".
I think
this can be applied to "Howl", to the Beat culture, to Buddhism,
to
Blues, to Jimi Hendrix music.
Getting
one's own mind out everything is just
connecting oneself to the
flow
life as
energy
and realising that everything is life.
Just a
koan look like and a big :) from the heart
Jean
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:56:02 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Leonard Cohen (Re: Gary Snyder Reading)
In-Reply-To:
<343DB417.123B@pacbell.net>
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James
Stauffer says:
>I
just returned from hearing Snyder read extensively from "Mountains and
>Rivers"
at Stanford. GS was in great form as a
reader, a tribute to the
>age
fighting effects of Buddhist mediation and/or damn good genes.
>
>The
Humanities Center at Stanford is doing a year long focus on MRWE
>from
a number of perspectives. Interested
scholars might check out
>their
web site http://shc.stanford.edu.
>
>J.
Stauffer
>
amici,
i've
read an article concerned Leonard Cohen (now zen monk Leonard C.)
living
in the Rinzai Zen Buddhism Center at Mt. Baldy L.A., it's the
same
place attended by gary snyder?
a week
ago i noted a book written about an interviewed Gary Snyder,
the
book is translated in italian by a the "Abele Circle" a catholic
group
devoted to pacifism, sorry i cant' afford to get thecheapbook'cuz
damnmoney!i
have n't--cari saluti a tutti da rinaldo.
LITTLE WING by Neal Young
All her friends call her Litlle Wing
But the flies rings around them all
She comes to town when the children
sing
And leaves them feathers if they fall.
She leaves her feathers if they fall.
Little Wing, don't fly away
When the summer turns to fall
Don't you know some people say
The winter is the best time of them
all
Winter is the best of all.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:59:06 -0400
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From: Gary Mex Glazner
<PoetMex@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder Reading
Comments:
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Dear
James and Beat List,
Standing
ovation at the end of last nights
reading
of Mountains and Rivers Without End,
Gary
Snyder's electric master piece...
Here is
the opening of the notes he wrote for the
program,
"This
is a poem sequence that reaches towards an imaging, a
visualizing,
of the whole planet as one watershed, one great place.
Like an
old time Buddhist pilgrim, it tries
to move
through the world in the spirit
of the
Compassion and Insight/ Emptiness/ Transparency.
The
structure of the sequence is inspired, in part, by the East Asian
sumi-ink
paintings
of landscapes (particular the horizontal scrolls or "handscrolls");
the
dramatic strategies and aesthetic insights of Japanese No drama; and
twentieth
century open-form long poem traditions. It moves between lyric,
dramatic,
and narrative modes, and is best experienced as performance.
It was
begun in the spring of 1956, and at a rate of about one poem per year,
finished
in 1996."
What a
treat it was hearing Snyder go into character voices of old mountain
men.
One
highlight was his chanting of the "Heart Sutra." After the applause
died
down,
Snyder
said, "I didn't write that one." much laughter! During the section
entitled
the
Mountain Spirit, Snyder took on the voice of an actor in a Japanese No
drama,
even
spinning into a little dance as the Mountain Spirit.
One of
the most intriguing sections was Ma, based on a letter
Snyder
found on the floor of a long-abandoned logger's cabin in the Yuba
River
county. A letter from home, the voices came to life, Ah Jafey you Darma
Bum!!
The
poems ends with the "Thick wet point of the black brush lifting from the
page."
I have seen Snyder give readings on numerous occasions, never
has he
been more alive, really using his body and hands, slowing down sinking
into
the material. I hope that you all get a chance to witness, "Mountains
and
Rivers Without End."
Gary
Mex Glazner
Headless
Buddha
http://www.well.com/user/poetmex
P.S.
James
I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to say Hello.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:46:20 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: I'm fine
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Sherri
wrote:
>
>
oops, it appears i somehow replied to a private message via Beat-l, dunno how
>
that happened. ghosts in the
machine... sorry Donald must've thought
that
>
was weird coming from someone you've never talked to. anyway, i apologize.
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
the
soft machine ... dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:49:20 -0400
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From: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Burroughs piece
In-Reply-To: <343C53BC.27EE@sunflower.com>
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On Wed,
8 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> In any case, the lead in page is at
>
> http://www.interlog.com/~fiction/28_netedit.html
>
> and the actual tribute is linked from there. I'll warn you
>
> that it is about 400K with all the images.
>
>
>
> It was writing this piece that has finally brought a sense of
>
> closure. I didn't burn anything, but created something with
>
> Burroughs as silent collaborator. We have different ways
>
> of dealing with grief, and this is how I dealt with mine.
>
>
>
> It's called "ghost-writing: a metempsychosis"
>
>
>
> I invite you all to read/view it, and I'd appreciate any
>
> comments or feedback.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil
>
>
graceful yet a real head snapper. bravo
>
Thanks
for taking the time to read it, and for the generous words.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:56:50 -0500
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Jonathan
Pickle wrote:
>
> And where are we now in terms of not only
the literal madness
> of
Carl Solomon and Naomi Ginsberg but the madness that has defined us,
>
the madness of America as a culture?
>
>
America seems to have always prided itself on its maddness. Ceaselessly we
>
drone out life for the sake of the mind manipulation of the media and
>
politicians who are, seemingly, under no obligation to be accountable.
>
While America as an idea has amazing potential, it is being diminished by
>
the consuming virus of complacency with mainstream culture. The times have
>
changed relatively little since the day Allen Ginsberg scribbled these
>
lines. A few laws have changed and a
few people have died in the fight,
>
but all in all the hysteria of life goes on.
That is why Howl is such a
>
timeless work - sadly enough it must always be thought to be relavant. I
> by
no means think it is less valuble, but the rage against contemporary
>
society that Howl symbolizes will always be there. The Beats were tired of
>
society, so they dropped out and railed against it. It will be done again
> as
it has been, and will be done for thousands of years ad infinitum. The
>
state of American maddness is the same - our image of it has only slightly
>
changed.
>
>
Jon
LITTLE
HAS CHANGED????
how
bout the madness of the American dream for black males in America?
quoting
from:
My
American Journey by Colin Powell
p.613
(this
is a wonderful blackbeat poem in my mind)
Colin
Powell's Rules
1. It ain't as bad as you think. It will look better in the morning.
2. Get mad, then get over it
(listening
to Meditation Rock by AG yesterday it is clear that he got
over
much of it)
3. Avoid having your ego so close to your
position that when your
position
falls, your ego goes with it.
(An
autobiography of Richard Milhouse Nixon there i'd say)
4. It can be done!
5. Be carefuly what you choose. You may get it.
6. Don't let adverse facts stand in the way of
a good decision.
(gotta
love that one ... since when did facts matter to beats anyway)
7. You can't make someone else's choices. You shouldn't let someone
else
make yours.
(new
reasons for spite! JK)
8. Check small things.
(WSB's
goldfish)
9. Share credit.
AG's
wonderful dedication to Howl
10. Remain calm. Be kind.
Aum to
Ah ... Chicago park scenery
11. Have a vision. Be demanding
Now if
that isn't AG & WSB's view of love i don't know what is.
12. Don't take counsel of your fears or
naysayers.
(could
be found in the middle of WSB's words of advice to young people
with
just a few mumbles coughs and yups)
13. Perpetual optimism is a force multiplier.
i
really really really need to do my laundry today or tomorrow....
dbr
--------------48CB37932C8--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:02:19 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: I'm fine
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Donald
E. Winters wrote:
>
>
Sherry: No, I'm fine, but thanks for the offer. Donald
rotflmao
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:26:01 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs piece
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Neil
Hennessy wrote:
>
> On
Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
>
> > In any case, the lead in page is at
>
> > http://www.interlog.com/~fiction/28_netedit.html
>
> > and the actual tribute is linked from there. I'll warn you
>
> > that it is about 400K with all the images.
>
> >
>
> > It was writing this piece that has finally brought a sense of
>
> > closure. I didn't burn anything, but created something with
>
> > Burroughs as silent collaborator. We have different ways
>
> > of dealing with grief, and this is how I dealt with mine.
>
> >
>
> > It's called "ghost-writing: a metempsychosis"
>
> >
>
> > I invite you all to read/view it, and I'd appreciate any
>
> > comments or feedback.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Neil
>
>
>
> graceful yet a real head snapper. bravo
>
>
>
>
Thanks for taking the time to read it, and for the generous words.
>
>
Neil
Neil, i
want to thank you. The peice hit that
criteria of mine, that
after
years of searching i use for determining good writing. It was
interesting,
made me think, led my mind on. It had
such a rich use of
perspective,
the use of your insight gained from his, was touching to me
in my
heart. I might have a different
reaction than others due to how
(the
roads) that I knew William, but your peice brought many thoughts
home to
me. I loved Williams art, I think his
art which may have lacked
this or
that in technique but to me was strong and true, part of the
expression
of his genius. Your use of your art,
especially the opening
siluette
peice fit like a gold glove.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:38:57 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jonathan Pickle
<jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>
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I say
little has changed because, little has.
I applaud anyone who can
emerge
from society. The madness refers to the
dogmas of society pressing
their
almost unbearable burden upon the weak - crushing them. Howl rages
against
this oppression. It cries out on behalf
of those being crushed.
>LITTLE
HAS CHANGED????
>how
bout the madness of the American dream for black males in America?
it has
always been my experience from where I am from that the quest for
the
american dream is maddening for black males.
Affirmative Action (and I
would
prefer to keep the discussion of this contraversial topic to a
minimum)
has done little to change the dogmas of society. I say this sadly
because
it should not be the way it is. But
maybe that's idealism akin to
the
Beat Homestead Vision of JK.
Jon
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:46:16 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm fine
lol i
know
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
RACE ---
Sent: Friday, October 10, 1997 12:02 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: I'm fine
Donald
E. Winters wrote:
>
>
Sherry: No, I'm fine, but thanks for the offer. Donald
rotflmao
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:47:02 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: tristan saldana
<hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Course at Berkeley
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997101009523775@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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I don't
know Holmes. What's he like? Also, I've ben checking out stuff
from
the library by Burroughs, looking through _The Yage Letters_ and
_The
Naked Lunch_. I wanted to get _Junkie_,
but its in special
collections
which means that it can only be seen there.
You can't check
it
out. Anyway, what's _Junkie_ like?
Tristan
On Fri,
10 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
I'd add John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his novel
"Go.
>
"
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:59:12 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm fine
yup <grinning>
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
RACE ---
Sent: Friday, October 10, 1997 11:46 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: I'm fine
Sherri
wrote:
>
>
oops, it appears i somehow replied to a private message via Beat-l, dunno
how
>
that happened. ghosts in the
machine... sorry Donald must've thought
that
>
was weird coming from someone you've never talked to. anyway, i apologize.
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
the
soft machine ... dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:13:46 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: hysterical and naked
Comments:
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by the
way, since Kenneth Burke was friends with that other new jersey
poet, i
started mentioning some things about this thread over on the
Burke-L.
Diane's
assertion that everyone can identify with HOWL got my brain a
clicking
cuz KB's huge advancement in rhetorical theory revolutionizing
the
20th centry communication studies environments across america is
basically
a simple computer calculation. In the
history of rhetorical
theory
for every mention of term "persuasion" replace
"identification".
The
thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider
an
Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad. Don't know if
it will
fly. I told them i was framing the
meditation for the day
through
the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and "Naked".
The
difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can
"identify"
with a word like "hysterical" the Affective dimension of
these
attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."
as for
naked. it is obviously not a term that
is merely talking about
an
unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects
part of
the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William
Seward
Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked
Lunch.
thoughtfully
to both listservs.
david
bruce rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
TIAA-Disabled
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:40:54 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Howl
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Levi
Asher wrote:
>
>
>
Funny, that's also my other favorite poem of the 20th century.
>
Interesting coincidence since T. S. Eliot was really a very un-beat
>
poet, wasn't he?
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
> |
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
>
Levi:
It
would seem on the surface that he was not beat by any stretch.
Rinaldo
will not put him on the list. But, he
seemed to strive for the
same
essence of truth beneath his structure. I think as Charles P
pointed
out, he had to go to Pound to add the structure. Maybe if he
had
proper guidance, he coulda woulda shoulda.
Prufrock just speaks to
me in
such a powerful way. It, like HOWL,
seems to transcend the writer
and
take on its own life. Most honor
Wasteland, but to me HOWL and
Prufrock
are the ones that I can read any day, any mood, any time. They
do not
let me down.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:52:57 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: sanity
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I do
not believe it is possible to be "sane" in this world. There are
those
who, like Dylan, accept the world as it is and are excellent
reporters,
but I have to wonder about his life and sanity. There are
others
who crave "normal" and lie to themselves about who and what they
are. Most of us are somewhere in between and that
is why we need poets
and
David R. ;-)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 19:34:57 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: hysterical and naked
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
> as
for naked. it is obviously not a term
that is merely talking about
> an
unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects
>
part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William
>
Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked
>
Lunch.
>
Dave,
Good
point.
Less
emphasis on physical nakedness and more on emotional nakedness.
Starkness.
Rawness, to the point of heightened vulnerability.
I'm
surprised no overly feminist readers haven't jumped on
"hysterical"...if
one really wanted to make a wild accusation, one would
say
that word adds to the anti-female theme with hysterical retaining
its
original meaning from the dark ages, that being 'madness, just cos
she's a
woman.' I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, it's just some
random
musing.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:33:27 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: TIME Article on Buddhism
After
joining in on the castigation of SPIN for thier superficial and silly
obituary
of William Burroughs, it was a pleasure to read, in this weeks TIME,
a
genuinely informative article on American Buddhism. I'm sure someone on
this
list probably did not like it, but I thought the TIME article was
informative
and fair, way beyond stereotypes and celebrity chic (OK, there
were
lots of photos of Brad Pitt, but the text did not dwell on his sex
appeal).
The
article talks a little about the role of Kerouac, Snyder and Ginsberg in
introducing
Buddhism to this side of the Pacific. I
think its kinda nice
that
TIME credits the beats with something serious, given all those articles
in the
1950's that stereotyped them as mindless bongo playing,smelly, sex
maniacs.
Anyway,
I recommend the TIME article as a decent introduction to American
Buddhism,
at least for folks like me that are interested in the topic but
don't
have much direct knowledge or experience with it.
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:54:07 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder Reading
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Thanks
you Gary for this more thorough report on the Snyder reading.
We'll
get together next time.
James
Stauffer
Gary
Mex Glazner wrote:
>
>
Dear James and Beat List,
>
>
Standing ovation at the end of last nights
>
reading of Mountains and Rivers Without End,
>
Gary Snyder's electric master piece...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:03:08 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Leonard Cohen (Re: Gary Snyder
Reading)
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Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
>
amici,
>
i've read an article concerned Leonard Cohen (now zen monk Leonard C.)
>
living in the Rinzai Zen Buddhism Center at Mt. Baldy L.A., it's the
>
same place attended by gary snyder?
> a
week ago i noted a book written about an interviewed Gary Snyder,
>
the book is translated in italian by a the "Abele Circle" a catholic
>
group devoted to pacifism,
Rinaldo,l
Thanks
for the interesting note. I hadn't
followed Leonard enough to
know of
this incarnation. As far as I know, and
I am open to further
knowledge
on this, Snyder is not involved with the Mt. Baldy Zen
operation
near LA. His own zendo is the
"Ring of Bone Zendo"--an
allusion
I take it to his friend Lew Welch. Most
of Snyder's serious
Buddhist
training was done in Japan. You are no
doubt familiar with the
mediation
center in Marin which is described in Dharma Bums and with his
roots
in San Francisco Buddhist circles such as those of Allan Watts,
Richard
Baker and East/West House.
I am
not suprised at the Roman Catholic connection.
There is alot of
interchange
between Zen and Catholic intellectuals--especially the
Jesuits
at least here in California. A number
of Jesuit priests are
also
Zen masters.
Good to
hear from you Rinaldo.
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:17:24 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: hysterical and naked
MIME-Version:
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RACE
--- wrote:
. . . In the history of rhetorical
>
theory for every mention of term "persuasion" replace
"identification".
>
The thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider
> an
Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad. Don't know if
> it
will fly. I told them i was framing the
meditation for the day
>
through the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and
"Naked".
>
>
The difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can
>
"identify" with a word like "hysterical" the Affective
dimension of
>
these attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."
>
> as
for naked. it is obviously not a term
that is merely talking about
> an
unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects
>
part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William
>
Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked
>
Lunch.
David,
You've
lost me completely here, perhaps my Kenneth Burke is too far in
the
distant past. Isn't the
"Affective" dimension almost always the
territory
of poetic language? Why would these
"attitudes be
'diametrically
opposed'"?
I did
follow Adrian's nice allusion to the roots of "hysteria" in
gynocology,
but I am lost in this Burkean stuff.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:35:32 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: hysterical and naked
Just like in those old days, weekend beatniks
have to reorient themselves
to
another world they enter when a week's
work is over and done with. Hey,
I
didn't say the GOOD old days...
I
expect theSunday trip in the park will be a familiar world this time
around,
but Burkean Pentads? Something to do
with fifths of some kind? Next
thing
you will tell us David, is that you are not a heavy thinker either,
just
like those poems were not made by a literary person, hmmm. Lots of
things
to redefine here, but as always I love to be along for the ride when
your
genius is tripping. Persuasion, identification are a bit bumpy, on a
dimension
of affection? affective dimension? By the time I get to the
Pentad
I got ta hang on to my seat.
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, October 10, 1997 4:18 PM
Subject:
hysterical and naked
>by
the way, since Kenneth Burke was friends with that other new jersey
>poet,
i started mentioning some things about this thread over on the
>Burke-L.
>
>Diane's
assertion that everyone can identify with HOWL got my brain a
>clicking
cuz KB's huge advancement in rhetorical theory revolutionizing
>the
20th centry communication studies environments across america is
>basically
a simple computer calculation. In the history
of rhetorical
>theory
for every mention of term "persuasion" replace
"identification".
>The
thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider
>an
Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad. Don't know if
>it
will fly. I told them i was framing the
meditation for the day
>through
the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and "Naked".
>
>The
difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can
>"identify"
with a word like "hysterical" the Affective dimension of
>these
attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."
>
>as
for naked. it is obviously not a term
that is merely talking about
>an
unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects
>part
of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William
>Seward
Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked
>Lunch.
>
>thoughtfully
to both listservs.
>david
bruce rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>TIAA-Disabled
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:52:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: hysterical and naked
Comments:
cc: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>
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Leon
Tabory wrote:
>
> Just like in those old days, weekend
beatniks have to reorient themselves
> to
another world they enter when a week's
work is over and done with. Hey,
> I
didn't say the GOOD old days...
>
> I
expect theSunday trip in the park will be a familiar world this time
>
around, but Burkean Pentads? Something
to do with fifths of some kind? Next
>
thing you will tell us David, is that you are not a heavy thinker either,
>
just like those poems were not made by a literary person, hmmm. Lots of
>
things to redefine here, but as always I love to be along for the ride when
>
your genius is tripping. Persuasion, identification are a bit bumpy, on a
>
dimension of affection? affective dimension? By the time I get to the
>
Pentad I got ta hang on to my seat.
>
>
leon
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 4:18 PM
>
Subject: hysterical and naked
>
>
>by the way, since Kenneth Burke was friends with that other new jersey
>
>poet, i started mentioning some things about this thread over on the
>
>Burke-L.
>
>
>
>Diane's assertion that everyone can identify with HOWL got my brain a
>
>clicking cuz KB's huge advancement in rhetorical theory revolutionizing
>
>the 20th centry communication studies environments across america is
>
>basically a simple computer calculation.
In the history of rhetorical
>
>theory for every mention of term "persuasion" replace
"identification".
>
>The thread i'm suggesting is to turn the tables so to speak and consider
>
>an Affective dimension to Attitude in the Burkean Pentad. Don't know if
>
>it will fly. I told them i was
framing the meditation for the day
>
>through the Terministic Screens of "Hysterical" and
"Naked".
>
>
>
>The difficulty with both of these terms is that while everyone can
>
>"identify" with a word like "hysterical" the Affective
dimension of
>
>these attitudes may be "diametrically opposed."
>
>
>
>as for naked. it is obviously not a
term that is merely talking about
>
>an unclothed body which causes similar confusion and perhaps reflects
>
>part of the beauty and yet societal misundestanding of the late William
>
>Seward Burroughs endless novel that will drive everybody MAD, Naked
>
>Lunch.
>
>
>
>thoughtfully to both listservs.
>
>david bruce rhaesa
>
>salina, Kansas
>
>TIAA-Disabled
>
>.-
>
>
howdy
leon,
how was
work this weak? caught your note
crediting diane with
resurrecting
beat-l with a HOWL. tonight's insomnia
more directed
towards
"WHOOPS" ...!
did you
REALLY know DEAN MORIARTY?
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:56:41 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: a tidbit of KB on Rutherford
Comments:
To: burke-L <Burke-L@siu.edu>
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Chapter
the Eleventh:
William
Carlos Williams, 1883-1963
"Some
40 years earlier, when I [KB] had haggled with him [WCW] about
this
slogan (which is as basic to an understanding of him as the
statement
of poetic policy he makes several times in his writings, 'No
ideas
but in things'), the talk of 'contact' had seemed most of all to
imply
that an interest in local writing and language should replace my
absorption
in Thomas Mann's German and Andre Gide's French. Next, it
suggest
a cult of "Amurricanism" just at the time when many young
writers,
copying Pound and Eliot, were on the way to self-exile in
Europe
while more were soon to follow. (I
mistakenly thought that I was
to be
one of them.) Further, it seemed to
imply the problematical
proposition
that one should live in a small town like Rutherford rather
than in
the very heart of Babylon (or in some area that, if not central
to the
grass roots of the nation, was at least close to the ragweed)."
Language
As Symbolic Action ...
so can
anybody explain what this means. A guy
once said Firewalk
reminded
of WCW -- i said "SURE!"... It was certainly not amerrucanism
more
intergallactic twister game.
i am
after some contemplation of the matter choosing to take a quarter
mg of
halperidol this evening.
love,
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:01:02 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
Hello Bruce,
I think
it was you Bruce who asked me that question. It's been so long. I
didn't
forget it though. Why did I think that Neal's letter did not resemble
the
same portrait that emerged from the Last Time I Committed Suicide? What
made it
more difficult for me was the fact that the portrait that the movie
painted
did not jibe with my knowledge of the man. I got to be sure here i
am
comparing the movie to the letter, not the man.
Can't
do that completely either, so let me acknowledge to begin with that I
take
the letter with a grain of salt also. I can't separate it totally from
the man
who spilled his heart out over long lonely months that did not
retreat
from constant motion, or the man who was real close by in the years
that
followed. I read the letter and I see the Neal that I knew speak of the
BIG
CONFLICT in his life, which was saint and sinner. Yes heavily flavored
by his
childhood mentors, the people who cared for him, the catholic
priests
and the whores. The people who fired his intense imagination and
even
more intense involvement in what to run to and what to run from in
living
his life. So I read in a lot of that in his letter. I don't see a man
who is
yearning for the life of a man with family and prosperity, who just
keeps
falling down on the steep climb up the the hill to his goal that moves
farther
and farther out of his reach. Not at all. It may well be that what I
see in
the letter is what I expect him to have in mind when he did what he
did and
how he talked about his life.
When
You said that it seems to you the movie is faithful to the letter, I
decided
to look at the letter very thoroughly.
I don't think that there is any controversy
or question that the movie
paints
a very clear picture of a man who yearned for the good life and just
lost it
because he was too weak to resist the life and friendships of the
pool
hall. A loser.
The
letter that I am looking at is in The First Third by Neal Cassady, City
Lights
1971, 1981, pp 146 to 160.
I find
only one reference that could possibly suggest dreams of marital
bliss.
"Oh
sad sack, o unpleasant time; Had I just not guzzled that last beer all
the
following would not be written and I could end thid story 'and they
lived
happily ever after' "
Sounds
to me like a classical fairy tale happy ending tagged on, not like
anything
that has reality in his life. The letter does come alive when he
moves
away from the torturous belittling of himself, I am so weak, I am so
weak, i
want to be good but I can't help myself. Doesn't seem to be much of
his
real life, his joys and pains in it. When he talks about those vague,
ill
understood concepts the words are couched in language that is like from
ancient
classical myths. He is like chewing hard on concepts that come to
him
from a very foreign world that he was dispossesed from. He is giving a
lot of
consideration to the phantasies of all the good things that they
claim
to be there, might be there, were not
available to him, but none of
thosse
things mean much to him when it comes to his real life. The things
that
those others have, including not just their money, but also their
values,
ways and beliefs. His talk about those things is vague. For example
"and
she fretted that the production of more babies - when we get the
money"
- would prove difficult. I reassured her on all counts, swore my love
(and
meant it) and finally we returned to the livingroom.
Oh, unhappy mind; trickster! O fatal
practicality!..."
When invited by that "good looker"
to dinner, his heart "jumped with guilty
joy",
no mention of marital bliss. "I felt again that choking surge flooding
me as
when first I'd seen her." Sounds to me like lust, not "honorable
intentions".
I could
go on and on. I
went through the whole letter a couple of
times looking for something that
might
change my mind, but all I found is more and more of the same.
I don't
know why you feel that the movie accurately portrays the letter, but
hopefully
I get across to you why I see it as I do.
Better
late than never. At least you can see that I gave some real
consideration
to your question.
--
>
>Bruce
>bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>
>P.S. HELLO, Senor Tabory!
>
>----------
>>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
>>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>>
Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>>
Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM
>>
>> The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg:
>>
>> Produced and Directed by Jerry Aronson
>>
>> you can purchase a copy from First Run
Features by calling
>> 1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.
>> This is the one that was shown in
theaters, I have rented it
>> from my local art theatre/video place.
>> It does have the Buckley footage.
>> Note:
>> When I was at the Ginsberg tribute at
Naropa in '94
>> Jerry Aronson showed out-takes from the
film which was
>> basically the extended Ginsberg and
Burroughs dialogue.
>> It was great.
>> Also saw "Pull my Daisy". Does
anyone know if that is available?
>>
>> SDY
>> syoung@dsw.com
>> ______________________________ Reply
Separator
>> _________________________________
>> Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
>>
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at
>Internet
>>
Date: 9/18/97 12:50 PM
>>
>>
>>
At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art theatre.
>>As
>>
some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about
>>15-20
>>
minutes edited from the original film.
The most priceless portion >of
>the
>>
entire film wasn't shown on PBS. The
scene involved AG chanting >and
>>
playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show. AG was totally >into
>>
his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled >AG
>on
>>
the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes >interact.
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>Denis Alcock
>>
>
>>
Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage. Is the footage you
>>
are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh special?
>>
>>
>>
-Jon
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:45:10 -0500
Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
>
Yes, Derek, war, money, molloch -- all the same. I don't agree that "Howl"
is
>
addressed more to men than women. If
it's a matter of repression, women, of
co
>
urse, were repressed by 1950s society even more than men, though ironically
wom
> en
(except for those like Elise Cowen & Di Prima who rebelled) were
instruments
> of
that repression in some ways -- supporting move to suburbs, materialistic
li
>
festyles, work ethic and mainstream man-in-the-grey-flannel-suit values. At
le
>
ast this is one theme that runs through Beat literature.
but
isn't it a sort of intellectually elitstist attitude creting its own
hierarch
y to suggest thos e who CHOOSE to move to the suburgbs ain't
part of
the best minds?
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:55:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
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Leon Tabory
wrote:
>
> Hello Bruce,
>
> I
think it was you Bruce who asked me that question. It's been so long. I
>
didn't forget it though. Why did I think that Neal's letter did not resemble
>
the same portrait that emerged from the Last Time I Committed Suicide? What
>
made it more difficult for me was the fact that the portrait that the movie
>
painted did not jibe with my knowledge of the man. I got to be sure here i
> am
comparing the movie to the letter, not the man.
>
>
Can't do that completely either, so let me acknowledge to begin with that I
>
take the letter with a grain of salt also. I can't separate it totally from
>
the man who spilled his heart out over long lonely months that did not
>
retreat from constant motion, or the man who was real close by in the years
>
that followed. I read the letter and I see the Neal that I knew speak of the
>
BIG CONFLICT in his life, which was saint and sinner. Yes heavily flavored
> by
his childhood mentors, the people who cared for him, the catholic
>
priests and the whores. The people who fired his intense imagination and
>
even more intense involvement in what to run to and what to run from in
>
living his life. So I read in a lot of that in his letter. I don't see a man
>
who is yearning for the life of a man with family and prosperity, who just
>
keeps falling down on the steep climb up the the hill to his goal that moves
>
farther and farther out of his reach. Not at all. It may well be that what I
>
see in the letter is what I expect him to have in mind when he did what he
>
did and how he talked about his life.
>
>
When You said that it seems to you the movie is faithful to the letter, I
>
decided to look at the letter very thoroughly.
> I don't think that there is any controversy
or question that the movie
>
paints a very clear picture of a man who yearned for the good life and just
>
lost it because he was too weak to resist the life and friendships of the
>
pool hall. A loser.
>
>
The letter that I am looking at is in The First Third by Neal Cassady, City
>
Lights 1971, 1981, pp 146 to 160.
>
> I
find only one reference that could possibly suggest dreams of marital
>
bliss.
>
>
"Oh sad sack, o unpleasant time; Had I just not guzzled that last beer all
>
the following would not be written and I could end thid story 'and they
>
lived happily ever after' "
>
>
Sounds to me like a classical fairy tale happy ending tagged on, not like
>
anything that has reality in his life. The letter does come alive when he
>
moves away from the torturous belittling of himself, I am so weak, I am so
>
weak, i want to be good but I can't help myself. Doesn't seem to be much of
>
his real life, his joys and pains in it. When he talks about those vague,
>
ill understood concepts the words are couched in language that is like from
>
ancient classical myths. He is like chewing hard on concepts that come to
>
him from a very foreign world that he was dispossesed from. He is giving a
>
lot of consideration to the phantasies of all the good things that they
>
claim to be there, might be there, were
not available to him, but none of
>
thosse things mean much to him when it comes to his real life. The things
>
that those others have, including not just their money, but also their
>
values, ways and beliefs. His talk about those things is vague. For example
>
"and she fretted that the production of more babies - when we get the
>
money" - would prove difficult. I reassured her on all counts, swore my
love
>
(and meant it) and finally we returned to the livingroom.
> Oh, unhappy mind; trickster! O fatal
practicality!..."
>
> When invited by that "good looker"
to dinner, his heart "jumped with guilty
>
joy", no mention of marital bliss. "I felt again that choking surge
flooding
> me
as when first I'd seen her." Sounds to me like lust, not "honorable
>
intentions".
>
> I
could go on and on. I
> went through the whole letter a couple of
times looking for something that
>
might change my mind, but all I found is more and more of the same.
>
> I
don't know why you feel that the movie accurately portrays the letter, but
>
hopefully I get across to you why I see it as I do.
>
>
Better late than never. At least you can see that I gave some real
>
consideration to your question.
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>Bruce
>
>bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>
>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>
>
>
>P.S. HELLO, Senor Tabory!
>
>
>
>----------
>
>> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>> Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>
>> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM
>
>>
>
>> The Life and Times of
Allen Ginsberg:
>
>>
>
>> Produced and Directed by
Jerry Aronson
>
>>
>
>> you can purchase a copy
from First Run Features by calling
>
>> 1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.
>
>> This is the one that was
shown in theaters, I have rented it
>
>> from my local art
theatre/video place.
>
>> It does have the Buckley
footage.
>
>> Note:
>
>> When I was at the Ginsberg
tribute at Naropa in '94
>
>> Jerry Aronson showed
out-takes from the film which was
>
>> basically the extended
Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.
>
>> It was great.
>
>> Also saw "Pull my
Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?
>
>>
>
>> SDY
>
>> syoung@dsw.com
>
>>
______________________________ Reply Separator
>
>>
_________________________________
>
>> Subject: Re: Life &
Times of Allen Ginsberg
>
>> Author: "BEAT-L: Beat
Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at
>
>Internet
>
>> Date: 9/18/97 12:50 PM
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art
theatre.
>
>>As
>
>> some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about
>
>>15-20
>
>> minutes edited from the original film. The most priceless portion >of
>
>the
>
>> entire film wasn't shown on PBS.
The scene involved AG chanting >and
>
>> playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show. AG was totally >into
>
>> his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled
>AG
>
>on
>
>> the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes
>interact.
>
>> >
>
>> >
>
>> >Denis Alcock
>
>> >
>
>> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage. Is the footage you
>
>> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh
special?
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> -Jon
>
>.-
>
>
hey
LEON,
thanks
for the post last night your a lifesaver literally and
figuratively.
wondering
why BIG CONFLICT is capitalized?
wondering
what you mean by big
wondering
what you mean by conflict
wondering
if big is idifferent than large and huge
wonderifg
if conflict is different than conflagaration
basically
wondering this morning....
gonna
walk over to filling station and sit in the booth and read colin
Powell.
funny
just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.
My
landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors
from
Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to
leonard
cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet
mind.
thanx
again for last night.
oh
pentad five a basiclly not certain what it means but if you're at a
convention
of buke scholars you just say penta d or pentadic ever y five
minutes
or so :)
Long
term memory now:
KB says
that the meaning of literature varies dramatically based on the
ratios
of the pentadic terms...
they
are
scene
agency
act
and two
others .... :)
so in
on the road, if the ratio is scene over act, the interpretation
will be
the visual imagery and the interactivity of the gang will be
secondary. on the other hand the converse flip flop
would make DEAN who
DEAN
is. Visions of Cody can be seen as the
same novel as On the Road
but
from a heavy on the ACT side of the pentads....capisce (sp?)
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:31:45 -0500
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Subject: For William c. wililams fans only [Fwd:
Re: a tidbit of KB on
Rutherford]
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Message-ID: <343F5CA1.77073DA9@siu.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:01:54 -0500
Reply-To:
dblake@SIU.EDU
Sender:
Kenneth Burke Discussion List <BURKE-L@SIU.EDU>
From:
David Blakesley <dblake@SIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: a tidbit of KB on Rutherford
To:
BURKE-L@SIU.EDU
Re.
Burke and Williams, here's my take, but first an announcement of related
interest. The William Carlos Williams Society has a
special session devoted
to
Burke/WCW planned for this year's MLA in Toronto. Full details will be
posted
later to the Burke-L website, but here's the slate:
**************
WCW and
Burke session
Monday,
29 December, 12 noon - 1:15pm, Quebec Room, Royal York
Brian
Bremen, UT Austin: "Reading
Williams Reading Burke Reading Hume"
David
Blakesley, SIUC: "'Sour Grapes
Plus': WCW's Influence on Kenneth
Burke"
Mark C.
Long, U Washington: "Tending to
the Imagination: Perspective and
Incongruity
in WCW and Burke"
Miriam
Clark, Auburn U: "Williams, Burke,
and American Poetry after
Modernism"
***************
David
asked about what Burke had in mind when he referred to his old (and
later revised)
disagreement with Williams re. the importance of "place" as a
defining
element of art. In the early twenties,
Burke railed against those
who
sought to define a uniquely "American" literature in terms of content
alone,
what he later calls and David quotes, "Amurricanism" (see
"Chicago
and our
National Gesture" in _The Bookman_, 1922). KB believed that a
healthy
"gesture" would have to distinguish itself in terms of form.
Burke
and WCW corresponded for forty years, beginning in 1921, and
throughout
that time they returned to this issue many times. But they
seemed
to find happy disagreement on it without resolving it.. Burke saw in
Williams
someone who was not simply a "no ideas but in things" poet, but
someone
who had combined that penchant with an urgent need for formal
experimentation. Williams countered with interested and
inveterate
questioning
of Burke's "damned philosophizing" and even tried to sway him
with
his forties poem, "At Kenneth Burke's Place."
FWIW,
my MLA paper will look closely at Williams's particular influence on
Burke's
_A Rhetoric of Motives_, which was direct and (of course I think)
profound.
Hope
this helps,
Dave
RACE
wrote: [snip]
> so
can anybody explain what this means. A
guy once said Firewalk
>
reminded of WCW -- i said "SURE!"... It was certainly not
amerrucanism
>
more intergallactic twister game.
>
> i
am after some contemplation of the matter choosing to take a quarter
> mg
of halperidol this evening.
>
>
love,
>
david
--
************************************************************************
David
Blakesley
Director
of Writing Studies in English
Southern
Illinois University-Carbondale
Visit
the Virtual Burkeian Parlor (home of "Burke-L") at
http://www.siu.edu/departments/english/acadareas/rhetcomp/burke/index.html
************************************************************************
--------------66F52D4C5FC3--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:10:23 -0400
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: "Looking For Jack" news at
TKQ!
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Hi
there! News on this book plus page update are now available at:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:29:08 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
-----Original
Message-----
From:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:01 AM
Subject:
Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>Leon
Tabory wrote:
>>
>> Hello Bruce,
>>
>>
I think it was you Bruce who asked me that question. It's been so long. I
>>
didn't forget it though. Why did I think that Neal's letter did not
resemble
>>
the same portrait that emerged from the Last Time I Committed Suicide?
What
>>
made it more difficult for me was the fact that the portrait that the
movie
>>
painted did not jibe with my knowledge of the man. I got to be sure here
i
>>
am comparing the movie to the letter, not the man.
>>
>>
Can't do that completely either, so let me acknowledge to begin with
that I
>>
take the letter with a grain of salt also. I can't separate it totally
from
>>
the man who spilled his heart out over long lonely months that did not
>>
retreat from constant motion, or the man who was real close by in the
years
>>
that followed. I read the letter and I see the Neal that I knew speak of
the
>>
BIG CONFLICT in his life, which was saint and sinner. Yes heavily
flavored
>>
by his childhood mentors, the people who cared for him, the catholic
>>
priests and the whores. The people who fired his intense imagination and
>>
even more intense involvement in what to run to and what to run from in
>>
living his life. So I read in a lot of that in his letter. I don't see a
man
>>
who is yearning for the life of a man with family and prosperity, who
just
>>
keeps falling down on the steep climb up the the hill to his goal that
moves
>>
farther and farther out of his reach. Not at all. It may well be that
what I
>>
see in the letter is what I expect him to have in mind when he did what
he
>>
did and how he talked about his life.
>>
>>
When You said that it seems to you the movie is faithful to the letter, I
>>
decided to look at the letter very thoroughly.
>> I don't think that there is any controversy
or question that the movie
>>
paints a very clear picture of a man who yearned for the good life and
just
>>
lost it because he was too weak to resist the life and friendships of the
>>
pool hall. A loser.
>>
>>
The letter that I am looking at is in The First Third by Neal Cassady,
City
>>
Lights 1971, 1981, pp 146 to 160.
>>
>>
I find only one reference that could possibly suggest dreams of marital
>>
bliss.
>>
>>
"Oh sad sack, o unpleasant time; Had I just not guzzled that last beer
all
>>
the following would not be written and I could end thid story 'and they
>>
lived happily ever after' "
>>
>>
Sounds to me like a classical fairy tale happy ending tagged on, not like
>>
anything that has reality in his life. The letter does come alive when he
>>
moves away from the torturous belittling of himself, I am so weak, I am
so
>>
weak, i want to be good but I can't help myself. Doesn't seem to be much
of
>>
his real life, his joys and pains in it. When he talks about those vague,
>>
ill understood concepts the words are couched in language that is like
from
>>
ancient classical myths. He is like chewing hard on concepts that come to
>>
him from a very foreign world that he was dispossesed from. He is giving
a
>>
lot of consideration to the phantasies of all the good things that they
>>
claim to be there, might be there, were
not available to him, but none
of
>>
thosse things mean much to him when it comes to his real life. The things
>>
that those others have, including not just their money, but also their
>>
values, ways and beliefs. His talk about those things is vague. For
example
>>
"and she fretted that the production of more babies - when we get the
>>
money" - would prove difficult. I reassured her on all counts, swore my
love
>>
(and meant it) and finally we returned to the livingroom.
>> Oh, unhappy mind; trickster! O fatal
practicality!..."
>>
>> When invited by that "good looker"
to dinner, his heart "jumped with
guilty
>>
joy", no mention of marital bliss. "I felt again that choking surge
flooding
>>
me as when first I'd seen her." Sounds to me like lust, not
"honorable
>>
intentions".
>>
>>
I could go on and on. I
>> went through the whole letter a couple of
times looking for something
that
>>
might change my mind, but all I found is more and more of the same.
>>
>>
I don't know why you feel that the movie accurately portrays the letter,
but
>>
hopefully I get across to you why I see it as I do.
>>
>>
Better late than never. At least you can see that I gave some real
>>
consideration to your question.
>>
>>
--
>>
>>
>
>>
>Bruce
>>
>bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>>
>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>>
>
>>
>P.S. HELLO, Senor Tabory!
>>
>
>>
>----------
>>
>> From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
>>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>>
>> Subject: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>>
>> Date: Thursday, September 18, 1997 1:15 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> The Life and Times of
Allen Ginsberg:
>>
>>
>>
>> Produced and Directed by
Jerry Aronson
>>
>>
>>
>> you can purchase a copy
from First Run Features by calling
>>
>> 1-800-488-6552 for $29.95.
>>
>> This is the one that was
shown in theaters, I have rented it
>>
>> from my local art
theatre/video place.
>>
>> It does have the Buckley
footage.
>>
>> Note:
>>
>> When I was at the Ginsberg
tribute at Naropa in '94
>>
>> Jerry Aronson showed
out-takes from the film which was
>>
>> basically the extended
Ginsberg and Burroughs dialogue.
>>
>> It was great.
>>
>> Also saw "Pull my
Daisy". Does anyone know if that is available?
>>
>>
>>
>> SDY
>>
>> syoung@dsw.com
>>
>>
______________________________ Reply Separator
>>
>>
_________________________________
>>
>> Subject: Re: Life &
Times of Allen Ginsberg
>>
>> Author: "BEAT-L: Beat
Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at
>>
>Internet
>>
>> Date: 9/18/97 12:50 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 09:28 AM 9/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>> >I saw the documentary about three years ago in a college art
theatre.
>>
>>As
>>
>> some of you who saw the program last night suspect, there was about
>>
>>15-20
>>
>> minutes edited from the original film. The most priceless portion >of
>>
>the
>>
>> entire film wasn't shown on PBS.
The scene involved AG chanting >and
>>
>> playing his organ on the William F. Buckley show. AG was totally
>into
>>
>> his chanting and Buckley looked ready to fire whoever had scheduled
>AG
>>
>on
>>
>> the program-- absolutely hilarious watching the two extremes
>interact.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >Denis Alcock
>>
>> >
>>
>> Is there a way we can get ahold of the full footage. Is the footage
you
>>
>> are referring to included in the advertisement at the end of teh
special?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Jon
>>
>.-
>>
>
>
>hey
LEON,
>
>thanks
for the post last night your a lifesaver literally and
>figuratively.
>
>wondering
why BIG CONFLICT is capitalized?
>wondering
what you mean by big
>wondering
what you mean by conflict
>wondering
if big is idifferent than large and huge
>wonderifg
if conflict is different than conflagaration
>
>basically
wondering this morning....
>gonna
walk over to filling station and sit in the booth and read colin
>Powell.
>
>funny
just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.
>My
landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors
>from
Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to
>leonard
cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet
>mind.
>
>thanx
again for last night.
>
>oh
pentad five a basiclly not certain what it means but if you're at a
>convention
of buke scholars you just say penta d or pentadic ever y five
>minutes
or so :)
>
>Long
term memory now:
>KB
says that the meaning of literature varies dramatically based on the
>ratios
of the pentadic terms...
>they
are
>scene
>agency
>act
>and
two others .... :)
>
>so
in on the road, if the ratio is scene over act, the interpretation
>will
be the visual imagery and the interactivity of the gang will be
>secondary. on the other hand the converse flip flop
would make DEAN who
>DEAN
is. Visions of Cody can be seen as the
same novel as On the Road
>but
from a heavy on the ACT side of the pentads....capisce (sp?)
>
>dbr
>.-
>