=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:26:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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Sherri
wrote:
>
>
i'd agree, except that the scholars of money are still operating on the old
>
"defense"-economy notions.
this country still spends vast amounts of money on
>
things related to the military.... and
instead of sending young boys out to
>
the slaughter, this economy is killing hopes, dreams, families, quality of
>
life (and people, too) just as surely as any bit of war machinery killed
>
soldiers.
>
>
seems to me they're still VERY closely related.
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
>
>
----------
>
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of Diane Carter
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 1997 12:16 PM
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
>
>
> Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
>
>
> just a few thougt s and a way of getting discussion going and what not -
>
> after i rcently exposed my girlfreind to "howl" and ginsberg for
the
>
> first
>
> time she was uncertain how to take it - she knew she was attracted to
>
> the
>
> poetics and the cadence (first played her ginsberg reading w/ kronos
>
> quartet) but she had a few problems esp. with the lines about the
"one
>
> eyed shrew" and what seemed to her a mysiginist attitude towards
women.
>
> (she didnt know that ginsberg was gay & that in fact most of the beat
>
> authors were gay/bisexual or at least rather tolerant - not to bring up
>
> the "was kerouac gay" arguement tho...) the more she & i
listened the
>
> more
>
> she
>
> realized that the poem didnt really seem to be talking to women at all.
>
> it
>
> seemed to be more of an address to men (like whitman was an address to
>
> men??) & the pressures of performance and expectations that are placed
>
> upon society (& esp. male society in 1950's) as seem by an
>
> intellectual, sexual outsider (altho saying that wouldnt elsie - that
>
> was
>
> her name, right? friend of joyce johnson's - be considered one of the
>
> "best minds" in ginsberg's opinion - he didnt preface and
introduce her
>
> poems to city lights journal at one point...)
> I
don't see really good poems or really good writing as addressing male
> or
female issues or as being written for men or women. All really great
>
writing addresses human-ness, the common place were are all at simply by
>
virtue of being human.
>
> and as for the scholars of war and
the scholars of money - i
>
> think
>
> that come 1955 and the rise of the American world-state (USA as major
>
> world power - one could argue - only was solidified after the atomic
>
> bomb
>
> and the creation of the " us and them" attitude of late 40's
early
>
> 50's,
>
> as well as the strength of the american economy post WWII, due to
>
> efforts
>
> to retain levels of warproduction and the creation of the consumer
>
> state )
>
> couldnt you say that the idea of seperating the "scholars of
war" and
>
> the
>
> "scholars of money" rather futile? they are one & the same
in post WII
>
> US
>
> culture, are the not? (for instance - the creation of the "disposable
>
> car"
>
> thatis, a car with models that change after a few yrs and the
>
> introduction
>
> of various colours, etc & the importnace of keeping up to date - was a
>
> conscious effort by the manufacturers and the US government to keep the
>
> economy at the same levels of production as they were during the war,
>
> thus
>
> providing jobs & security for both returning vets as well as
>
> governmental
>
> contractors...) so is there really a difference b/t war & money?
>
> hallucination & reality?
>
> but i suppose i digress...
>
> I
agree that in the time Ginsberg wrote Howl it would be futile to
>
separate money and war. I think that
today in the U.S. with war more
> or
less shoved into the background, that the scholars of money would be a
>
more appropriate target.
> DC
i'm
becoming more of a scientist every day so i's gonna suggest an
interesting
experience. get a classroom full of
students together --
frosh
in college will do, and run the VIDEO of Speeches of Dwight David
Eisenhower
CONCURRENTLY with the fourth cd of HOLY SOUL JELLY ROLL ASHES
AND
BLUES by Allen (i don't know his middle name) Ginsberg.
just a
thought?
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:34:36 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Moloch and David R
Comments:
To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
David:
>
>
You are here so you are already part of Moloch. Are you going to evolve
>
from there? :-)
>
> I
know who you are, go big green machine.
Be back in 2001, eh? Is that
>
cryptic enough for you? ;-)
> --
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
2001
???
time is
a relative commodity.
"When
a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a
minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute
- and it's longer
than
any hour. That's relativity." -- Albert Einstein
"I
have my best ideas while shaving" -- Albert Einstein
i
didn't shave today cuz i'm trying to slow down :)
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:33:17 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: First_Name Last_Name
<Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Looking For Jack" news at
TKQ!
In a
message dated 97-10-11 09:55:22 EDT, you write:
<<
Hi there! News on this book plus page update are now available at:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>>
taken
from the web page:
"To
truly understand the Beat spirit," saysMel Ash, "you must be Beat,
in the
same way that you cannot know what an orange tastes like from
simply
reading about it." An emotional, cerebral, and maybe even bodily
experience,
this book is your orange, take a bite. Its ISBN # for
ordering
is 0-87477-880-8 and costs $15.95. You acn order by calling
1-800-788-6262.
um, to
be beat, would you not have to do more than to, say, just read?
it's a
clever markerting cloy, but somewhat disconcerting.......
and i'm
a newbie to the beat generation in general, so i may have some
questions
along the way......
what
does the word "pentad" signify?
spinney
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:52:09 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Oops, apologies,
last one was a mistake. Re: Re:
Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
Accidentally
pulled the trigger on last one. I am sorry. Please ignore it
everyone,
While I
apologize let me also apologize for calling the subject Ginzburg in
a post
about Neal of the movies. I will respond to the issues you raise,
David,
about my response. What's this drug you
took last night, the
Philosopher's
stone? Can't resist a pun. O.K., so it is not a good one,
still a
pun though.
Thanks
David
leon--
--Original
Message-----
From:
Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
To:
BEAT-L: Beat Generation List <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, October 11, 1997 7:29 AM
Subject:
Re: Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:10:33 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: "Looking For Jack" news at
TKQ!
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At
10:33 AM 10/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-10-11 09:55:22 EDT, you write:
>
><<
Hi there! News on this book plus page update are now available at:
>
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html >>
>
>taken
from the web page:
>
>"To
truly understand the Beat spirit," saysMel Ash, "you must be Beat,
>in
the same way that you cannot know what an orange tastes like from
>simply
reading about it." An emotional, cerebral, and maybe even bodily
>experience,
this book is your orange, take a bite. Its ISBN # for
>ordering
is 0-87477-880-8 and costs $15.95. You acn order by calling
>1-800-788-6262.
>
>um,
to be beat, would you not have to do more than to, say, just read?
>it's
a clever markerting cloy, but somewhat disconcerting.......
>and
i'm a newbie to the beat generation in general, so i may have some
>questions
along the way......
>what
does the word "pentad" signify?
>
>spinney
>I
wrote it as I got it my friend. . .marketing ploy or not, it's in print
because
the audience of the genre demands this kind of material. We cannot
complain
when someone introduces their work into the literary world, it's
the
only way scholarship and culture moves along (rd this meaning anything
in
art). Thanks, Paul. . .
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:59:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: First_Name Last_Name
<Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "Looking For Jack" news at
TKQ!
In a
message dated 97-10-11 10:52:56 EDT, you write:
<<
>I wrote it as I got it my friend. . .marketing ploy or not, it's in print
because the audience of the genre demands
this kind of material. We cannot
complain when someone introduces their work
into the literary world, it's
the only way scholarship and culture moves
along (rd this meaning anything
in art). Thanks, Paul. . .
"We cannot well do without our sins;
they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau >>
as far
as the introducing goes, you hear no complaint from me; i thrive on
books,
new ideas, and such&such......but we(or at least i choose to) whenever
i read
adjectives and titilating blurbs describing a book, in an attempt to
manipulate
my emotions towards purchasing a selection.....let me instead read
a selection
from a book itself, let the author speak to me; that's who should
engage
my emotions, convince me that his/her words should dominate my
thoughts
for the next few hours, days, or weeks........
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 16:58:25 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Bentz, Dylan, Pound and an ancient
bookstore in Venice.
In-Reply-To: <343ECB15.D9AA6C95@scsn.net>
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amici,
ezra
pound told us that the centre of the universe is
a point
at Venice where Rio San Trovaso meets the
Canale
della Giudecca. by this place there's a "squero",
a
wooden building where an artisan constructs the gondolas.
i
passing a lot of time near this Rio and near the squero
there's
a mooring stake & during the 70's until early '80s
attached
at the stake was a Popeye puppet, pretty big &
evident.
always amazed, i think ezra pound had a smile
seeing
this irreverent venetian...
however
the center of the universe doesn't clash the
centre
of venice. this centre was discovered by a bookseller
in his
own shop, the center of venice was marked by an
ancient
column and it's between the Rialto Bridge &
S.
Marco Square. the bookseller hid the column 'cuz annoyed by
tourists,
now a friend of mine told me that the young son of
the
bookseller has removed the voile. the bookstore is
the
anciest bookstore in venice and named "Tarantola" at
Campo
S. Luca...
buona
domenica e cari saluti a tutti,
rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:11 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Bentz, Dylan, Pound and an ancient
bookstore in Venice.
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Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
amici,
>
>
ezra pound told us that the centre of the universe is
> a
point at Venice where Rio San Trovaso meets the
>
Canale della Giudecca. by this place there's a "squero",
> a
wooden building where an artisan constructs the gondolas.
> i
passing a lot of time near this Rio and near the squero
>
there's a mooring stake & during the 70's until early '80s
>
attached at the stake was a Popeye puppet, pretty big &
>
evident. always amazed, i think ezra pound had a smile
>
seeing this irreverent venetian...
>
>
however the center of the universe doesn't clash the
>
centre of venice. this centre was discovered by a bookseller
> in
his own shop, the center of venice was marked by an
>
ancient column and it's between the Rialto Bridge &
> S.
Marco Square. the bookseller hid the column 'cuz annoyed by
>
tourists, now a friend of mine told me that the young son of
>
the bookseller has removed the voile. the bookstore is
>
the anciest bookstore in venice and named "Tarantola" at
>
Campo S. Luca...
>
>
buona domenica e cari saluti a tutti,
>
rinaldo.
i stare
at the picturepostcard you send me of Pounds Centre of universe
with
every keystroe, every work, every error ... still the best postcard
i've
got in long time...
thanks
again Rinaldo,
david
bruce rhaesa
salina,
Kansas 67401
USA
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:38:43 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dana Lee Kober
<dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Course at Berkeley
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.HPP.3.91.971010124118.8183A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>
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I'm now
reading _Junky_. I think it gives
insight into WSB's life, the
preface
tells you alot. Have you read
Kerouac? WSB has a "tell it like
it
is" style but he's conscious of punctuation and doesn't have the
spontaneous
prose style of Kerouac. He gives you a
good feel of the
times. It isn't an expensive book...$10.95 or
something like that. I
can't
give you much yet because I'm not done with it.
On Fri,
10 Oct 1997, tristan saldana wrote:
> I
don't know Holmes. What's he like? Also, I've ben checking out stuff
> from
the library by Burroughs, looking through _The Yage Letters_ and
>
_The Naked Lunch_. I wanted to get
_Junkie_, but its in special
>
collections which means that it can only be seen there. You can't check
> it
out. Anyway, what's _Junkie_ like?
>
>
Tristan
>
> On
Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
> I'd add John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his novel
> "Go.
>
> "
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:45:34 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Dana Lee Kober
<dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>
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Kerouac
turned me on to Thelonious Monk. Anyone
else know *good* jazz?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:02:48 -0700
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide
-----Original
Message-----
From:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:01 AM
Subject:
Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>
>hey
LEON,
>
snip
>wondering
why BIG CONFLICT is capitalized?
Because
I thought that saints were the champions in his mind in the arena of
life,
struggling with the evils of sinfulness. That that was the struggle
that
counted for most in his mind. He was impressed from very early in life
with
extreme opposing models for these things. The orphan kid didn't have
the
stabilizing influences of comforting parents with common sense to
protect
and guide him. In that vacuum stepped in strangers with very strong
adult
opposing notions about sin and pleasure, painted in very dramatic
terms.
The first things that he told me about himself was that since he was
a
little kid he wanted to be a monk. I wanted to emphasize that I never saw
him
to really care much about sober minded
practicalities of family life,
but
that the disparities between good and evil were the conflicts that
dominated
his life. Some time I hope to lay out some notions i have
developed
about why marijuana and other drugs became such a big factor in
his
life (our lives).
I didn't attach any importance to the words
big or large, or any word that
might suggest the importance of the issue to him..
>basically
wondering this morning....
>gonna
walk over to filling station and sit in the booth and read colin
>Powell.
>
>funny
just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.
>My
landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors
>from
Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to
>leonard
cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet
>mind.
>
>thanx
again for last night.
>
>oh
pentad five a basiclly not certain what it means but if you're at a
>convention
of buke scholars you just say penta d or pentadic ever y five
>minutes
or so :)
>Long
term memory now:
>KB
says that the meaning of literature varies dramatically based on the
>ratios
of the pentadic terms...
>they
are
>scene
>agency
>act
>and
two others .... :)
>
>so
in on the road, if the ratio is scene over act, the interpretation
>will
be the visual imagery and the interactivity of the gang will be
>secondary. on the other hand the converse flip flop
would make DEAN who
>DEAN
is. Visions of Cody can be seen as the
same novel as On the Road
>but
from a heavy on the ACT side of the pentads....capisce (sp?)
>
For a
moment there I thought you said capsized. Jess kidding. Heady stuff.
Capisce
slightly, but not too well. I try to grasp such concepts, but more
often
than not I am left with disconnected strands dangling in the shadows
of my
mind.
Ciao,
happy Sunday
leon
>dbr
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:05:29 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: LEON = The GODfather (was Re: The Last
Time I Committed Suicide
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Leon Tabory
wrote:
> Heady stuff.
>
Capisce slightly, but not too well. I try to grasp such concepts, but more
>
often than not I am left with disconnected strands dangling in the shadows
> of
my mind.
>
>
Ciao, happy Sunday
>
>
leon
>
>dbr
>
>.-
> >It
is Saturday at noon and you're already into Sunday!!!??? Thanks for the
note.
Only understanding i have of capisce is from watching GODFATHER MOVIES
WAY TOO MANY TIMES FOR ANYONES MENTAL WELL
BEING :)
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:18:57 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: The
Johnstons
-----Original
Message-----
From:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, October 11, 1997 5:01 AM
Subject:
Re: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>
>funny
just found out i'm living within the space of the Johnson family.
>My
landlords name is Marvin Johnson so i'm replacing my view of realtors
>from
Dylans Dar landlord and beginning to sit quietly and listen to
>leonard
cohen's death of a ladies man for the first time with an quiet
>mind.
>
Reminds
me of Luke Kelly's Johnston Family project. I wonder how that is
going.
Hi
Luke, you around? Anything happening in the Johnston family?
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:40:08 -0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
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Dear
Leon,
You had already responded to my original
query of what in particular
didn't
jive between the letter and the movie.
I've been trying my damnedest
to get
a response back to you, but time seems to be so difficult to find
lately. Barely enough time to read, certainly not
enough time to write.
After hearing your explanation of it, I
have to agree with you. While
the
movie was visually dazzling, and beautifully acted, the decision by the
screenwriter
and director to hammer the idea that Neal was searching for the
perfect
family was far from accurate, and betrayed the the letter as it was
written.
This brings up an interesting question in
my mind: do filmmakers have a
responsibility
to the movie-watching public to stay as true to the reality
of a
"based on such & such" movie as is humanly possible? Oliver Stone
comes
to mind quickest of all for who has no problem taking liberties with
history,
putting his own spin on the story as it comes to him. How many
novels
and short stories have been bent from from their original intent?
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
The
Trane Station
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:51:26 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: We Would Be Two Men.
In-Reply-To: <343ECB15.D9AA6C95@scsn.net>
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We
Would Be Two Men by John Wieners
Lost in
his arms for two days,
I find
my secret passions rewarded;
melting,
blended as before
receiving
kisses as from a King of the Black Sea,
no-one
able to compete with his necessity.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 02:09:46 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Let's Discuss Something
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>
RACE wrote:
>
Could you give brief biographical information on that opening section
> in
> a
few days? Who are these best minds and
why were they the best? What
> is
meant exactly by DESTROYED! ????
I think
that the ideas of madness and destroyed run much deeper than one
might
originally think. First of all we have
traditional views of
madness
within the psychiatric realm, delusional, unable to live day to
day
because of it, with Ginsberg's mother and Carl Solomon falling into
this
realm, for which at the time shock treatments and lobotomies were
commonplace,
which more often than not left the mind more destroyed than
it had
been in the beginning. Maybe Leon has
some thoughts about this
psychological
definition of things. We also have
Ginsberg, as a young
man,
thrown into this environment personally.
Then there's the idea that
having
certain thoughts made one mad.
Ginsberg's "I can't stand my own
mind." The turmoil of knowing that one's own
thoughts will not be
accepted
in the greater world out there. Not
accepted in America.
Perhaps
not even accepted by oneself. The idea
that if I told someone
what I
really think they would think me mad, insane, they would lock me
away.
And
then added to that what I see when I read "I saw the best minds of my
generation,
destroyed by madness. Starving
hysterical naked, dragging
themselves
through the Negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix."
The
people of this generation who are creative and intelligent, yet on
the
outside of society, destroyed by the seeming necessity of fitting in
and having
to lead so called normal lives. The
madness of the poet who
must
seek to find eternity, must seek the truth in his vision, but is
pushed
back in every attempt by the ignorance of America. The person who
almost
starving for truth, stripped of all else,is naked and alone
searching
for the fix, not only drug-type fix but the answers to the
question
of what life is all about. We are all
caught in our own
madness,
but madness is in fact a good thing, that which keeps us alive
and
well in our struggle against being destroyed by the scholars of money
and
war. What, Donald Winters in his post
also pointed at as "holy
madness"
that which perhaps seeks the eternal and the infinite, a
different
vision, that many within society cannot accept and seek to
destroy.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:19:45 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: howling a declaration ...
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
> as
i meditate the differences between Howl and Declaration of
>
Independence, it seems that there are many rhetorical similarities.
>
more and more i am convinced that it is the rhetorical situation which
> is
the main discerning factor between the two...especially in the areas
> of
rhetorical character and analysis of various audiences....
>
> i
also sense that i may have hit something stronger than initially
>
considered in the comment concerning Goldwater. His "Conscience of the
>
Majority" is perhaps a good rhetorical piece to consider as
>
"counter-HOWL" ... a philosophy which though failing in 64 continued
to
>
grow a cultural constituency until its mantel was taken by Reagan. The
>
conservatism of America today reflects Goldwater conservatism as the
>
dominant politico-cultural paradigm.
Howl on the other hand currently
> is
resigned to a much smaller and receding audience. A sad observation,
> in
my mind, i must admit but i sense that there is something to it...
>
>
perhaps someone could have fun with the two texts at the cut-up machine
>
over on Big.Table....perhaps it would take but a tad of salt and pepper
> to
the resulting texts to come up with a Statement for the Present.
>
>
david
god
what a nerd this david is :)
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:42:15 -0700
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From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Course at Berkeley
In-Reply-To:
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Hey
this is helpful. Thank you for your
thoughts. _Junkie_ it is.
Right
now I'm flipping through _Naked_ and my favorite line is "The
needle
is not important."
Tristan
On Sat,
11 Oct 1997, Dana Lee Kober wrote:
>
I'm now reading _Junky_. I think it
gives insight into WSB's life, the
>
preface tells you alot. Have you read
Kerouac? WSB has a "tell it like
> it
is" style but he's conscious of punctuation and doesn't have the
>
spontaneous prose style of Kerouac. He
gives you a good feel of the
>
times. It isn't an expensive
book...$10.95 or something like that. I
>
can't give you much yet because I'm not done with it.
>
> On
Fri, 10 Oct 1997, tristan saldana wrote:
>
>
> I don't know Holmes. What's he
like? Also, I've ben checking out stuff
>
> from the library by Burroughs, looking through _The Yage Letters_ and
>
> _The Naked Lunch_. I wanted to get
_Junkie_, but its in special
>
> collections which means that it can only be seen there. You can't check
>
> it out. Anyway, what's _Junkie_ like?
> >
>
> Tristan
>
>
>
> On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'd add John Clellon Holmes' articles on the Beat Generation and his
novel
>
> "Go.
>
> > "
>
> >
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:04:20 -0700
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.LNX.3.95.971011114450.7154A-100000@reality.tessier.com>
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On Sat,
11 Oct 1997, Dana Lee Kober wrote:
>
Kerouac turned me on to Thelonious Monk.
Anyone else know *good* jazz?
If you
want a pianist who'll make your ears fall off, find some Art Tatum
recordings.
Horowitz himself was impressed.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Why can't it just
be, Michael?"
Simunye, in conversation with
Foosi, September 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:03:11 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: LEON = The GODfather (was Re: The
Last Time I Committed
Suicide
Content-Type:
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>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:05:29 -0500
>Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>Subject: LEON = The GODfather (was Re: The Last
Time I Committed
Suicide
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Leon
Tabory wrote:
>> Heady stuff.
>>
Capisce slightly, but not too well. I try to grasp such concepts, but
more
>>
often than not I am left with disconnected strands dangling in the
shadows
>>
of my mind.
>>
>>
Ciao, happy Sunday
>>
>>
leon
>>
>dbr
>>
>.-
>>
>It is Saturday at noon and you're already into Sunday!!!???
I am
getting excited about the rebein?, bein reborn?, I wonder what
it's
going to be like tomorrow, Sunday in San Francisco, where we will
be
trying to celebrate the thirtieth anniversary of the Summer of Love,
which
is trademarked by Bill Graham Productions and licensed for one
dollar
for this belated celebration that almost didn't happen until da
mayor
stepped in. We must be becoming the source of votes to be reckoned
with.
Anyway, happy Sunday is on my mind. Thirty years ago I went there
with
the lady who later became the mother of my children and tomorrow I
am
going with our beautiful daughter and her fiancee. Hopefully we will
meet
James and maybe run into a few other
listers on the scene.
It
should be fun. I was going to backchannell you this one, but decided
Beat-L's
in far flung places probably like to hear about these things
also.
>
note. Only understanding i have of
capisce is from watching GODFATHER
MOVIES
>
WAY TOO MANY TIMES FOR ANYONES MENTAL WELL BEING :)
The
movies made me do it, or is it kept me from doing it. At least they
are
good ones or you wouldn't be watching them, right?
>dbr
>.-
>
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:11:21 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: I WALK UNDER THE DISTANT STARS by John
Wieners
In-Reply-To: <343ECB15.D9AA6C95@scsn.net>
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I WALK UNDER THE DISTANT STARS by John Wieners
I walk under the distant stars
as I did when a child with my brother; as
I did
with Wallace on Grant Street in those
long, cool
San Francisco nights, that seemed
to have no edges --
only avenues
of columns and evergreens,
without walls.
I look up and see the spaces
between stars
and think of the mists and
miles across them,
what we would traverse to be
together:
It brings me back to
Churchill Street
coming home from the
store
eyes up at the dense
clusters
that sputter in the
night,
And I think again of the question that
dwells
in our minds about the
plan
behind man, his place in the universe
and the
universe, its place in
man.
And I am left as at eight yrs. old
with the wonder of what makes it all,
the infinity between each
light
and the eternity of one.
And I am dumb with the question.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 14:23:03 PDT
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From: Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
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Hi
Bruce,
Glad I
wasn't wrong about it. I have no problem with people making
movies
any way they like to make them. I have no problem with different
audiences
having different tastes about what or why they like in movies.
I do
have a problem with people drawing very incorrect conclusions about
who and
what very significant influences in our continuing history,
based
upon misleading projected images.
I
believe that we need to start dealing with issues about information
communicated
to vast masses. We could use more reliability in what we
learn
second hand about influential people.
It
seems toi me certainly very desirable to air these issues out. I
think
it is one of the wonderful things about lists such as ours.
leon
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:40:08 -0000
>Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From:
Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Dear
Leon,
>
> You had already responded to my original
query of what in
particular
>didn't
jive between the letter and the movie.
I've been trying my
damnedest
>to
get a response back to you, but time seems to be so difficult to
find
>lately. Barely enough time to read, certainly not
enough time to
write.
> After hearing your explanation of it, I
have to agree with you.
While
>the
movie was visually dazzling, and beautifully acted, the decision by
the
>screenwriter
and director to hammer the idea that Neal was searching
for the
>perfect
family was far from accurate, and betrayed the the letter as it
was
>written.
> This brings up an interesting question in
my mind: do filmmakers
have a
>responsibility
to the movie-watching public to stay as true to the
reality
>of
a "based on such & such" movie as is humanly possible? Oliver Stone
>comes
to mind quickest of all for who has no problem taking liberties
with
>history,
putting his own spin on the story as it comes to him. How
many
>novels
and short stories have been bent from from their original
intent?
>
>Bruce
>bwhartmanjr@iname.com
>The
Trane Station
>http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
>.-
>
______________________________________________________
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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:37:40 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU]]
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David
seems to be over his posting limit so I am forwarding this post to
the
list because I particularly wanted to comment on the "I" that begins
Howl. I think David is right that an analysis
should addresss the I.
Obviously
it means I, Allen Ginsberg, the person writing this poem. But
it also
goes beyond that to mean I, the human being.
And at that point
it
becomes a communal I for all of us that feel his particular
experience
as acutely as he did. The I also
crosses the bounds of time
and
crosses all generations. I did not grow
up in the same generation as
Allen
Ginsberg, and yet his I now includes me.
"I saw the best minds of
my
generation destroyed by madness"
becomes the statement of all
generations,
all individuals who embrace his non-conformist attitude and
poetic
vision. That is also why Howl is more
than a "period piece,"
because
the anger, the vision, and the dream never cease to be relevant.
DC
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From:
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guess
i'm over my limit. that's ok.
dbr
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CC:
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APPLE <edappel@epix.net>
Subject:
BACK to the "I" in HOWL (was Re: hysterical and naked)
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James Stauffer
wrote:
> I
did follow Adrian's nice allusion to the roots of "hysteria" in
>
gynocology, but I am lost in this Burkean stuff.
>
> J.
Stauffer
James,
to be
honest i'm lost in this burkean stuff.
As i have told Apple and
can now
tell my old Professor on Burke at the University of Iowa, when
it
comes to KB i've always been a total bluffer.
Leon is correct that
it has
to do with a fifth - and i really couldn't tell the difference if
it was
a fifth on a piano or in a flask -- i just know that if i say
pentad
and pentadic every five minutes or so and apply KB to Bob Dylan
my
peers think i'm "together" on this shit! BUT NO!
I do
believe that the connection between Burke and Howl is meaningful
especially
given the "haggling" between KB and AG mentor WCW. It seems
that
WSB took KB's advice all too seriously whether consciously or
unconsciously
in not only escaping Amurrricanism but creating
INTERZONE. Hopefully someday i'll get a diploma from
INTERZONE U.! :)
My KB
collection was all lost in the FIREWALK save Towards a better life
-- KB's
anti-novel -- and Language as symbolic action which i found at
J.Hood's
bookstore in Lawrence when i was there with patricia.
dbr
i
thought A's post on hysteria was wonderful.
i've stepped
backwards a few words in order to slow down my spaceship
and so
I am at the word "I" and recalling vividly the report i gave on
George
Herbert Mead(e?) for Bruce's Dramaturgy class where i had my only
formal
exposure to KB.
incidentally,
BRUCE has a wonderful copy of Grammar of Motives and
Rhetoric
of Motives in combined form. It is very
worn. Always wondered
if he
bought it used <grin>
oh, not
all was lost in Firewalk. Also have old
brown hardback of
Grammar
of Motives also from J.Hood in Lawrence and i just bought
Counter-Statement
orange hardback version on my Boulder/Denver book
fiesta!
so...i'm
as confused as you are.
Yesterday
the Uly passage of the day Bloom was wondering where he was
from
and who he was and whether he was who he had been and whatnot. I
believe
-- in the only sense of the word -- that a "thorough" analysis
of HOWL
must begin with who is the "I" in the first word. :)
dbr
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=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:25:57 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Beat Spirit
Look
for my review of Mel Ash's "Beat Spirit" in a forthcoming issue of
Library
Journal.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:02:23 -0400
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From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
Leon
and Bruce,
i've
been very interested in your discussion and wanted to add my two sense.
I saw
the movie and then read the letter so my perspective is probably
completely
different then yours. Anyway what i wanted to say is even if the
director
stayed as close to the letter as possible, don't you think it would
be
extremely diffucult to have an accurate portrayal of Neal? I mean he is a
myth in
himself and we, well i for one, haven't found out who "neal" really
is.
Whether or not a family, or at least the ideal family, was what he really
strived
for, or even his true character. Being the subject of the beats
writing,
he is the legend we can only know by their interpretation of him. As
for the
director's creative license, it is his vision, based on fact, but
still
his vision of the character and what he interpreted from the letter.
~~Marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:22:45 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Let's Discuss Something
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Is this
so damn complicated? I vastly prefer to
sit back an let the
first
part of Howl speak to me. Or listen to
AG read it. We can
bullshit
about RD Laing, and Foucault and Paul Goodman and madness all
we
want--the poem, thank god, will stay the same.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:42:32 -0700
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Summer of Lovin 30 Years Later
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Leon,
I will
be seeing you there. We shall have to
see how all that sex,
drugs,
rock n roll and spritual searching translates into geriatrichood!
Rock
on.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:12:38 -0400
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From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU
Diane
& David:
It's
interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon
begin
with "I":
"I
saw the best minds of my generation...."
-Allen
Ginsberg, HOWL
"I
first met Dean...."
-Jack
Kerouac, ON THE ROAD
"I
can feel the heat closing in...."
-William
S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH
Your
discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers. WSB's "the
IS of
identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.
Furtive
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 23:35:23 -0500
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From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
> I
also do not see Howl as a "period piece." It does what most good
>
writing does and transcends time. Do
you really see a different America
>
today?
> DC
It was
a different America for the author when he died. It is daily a
different
America for me. No easy mobility in the economy, no cheap
rents
in the urban centers, less idealistic of our global role, email as
means
of quick communication ... to name a few.
Do you
still see America as 50's America?
The
poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of
Ginsberg
will become static and fixed.
What
Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from now.
Its
only importance is its meaning to you in America today.
Understanding
the time and culture it was produced in may reveal
something
about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you
interpret
it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 22:29:42 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU
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Arthur
Nusbaum wrote:
>
>
Diane & David:
>
>
It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon
>
begin with "I":
>
>
"I saw the best minds of my generation...."
>
-Allen Ginsberg, HOWL
>
>
"I first met Dean...."
>
-Jack Kerouac, ON THE ROAD
>
>
"I can feel the heat closing in...."
>
-William S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH
>
>
Your discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers. WSB's "the
> IS
of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.
>
>
Furtive Regards,
>
>
Arthur
As
opposed to "Call me Ishmael"
(I be Ishmael?) or "Stately, Plump . .
." I (there it goes again) guess we are onto
something about narcissm
and the
beats?
js
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:15:28 -0400
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU
In-Reply-To:
<971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>
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On Sun,
12 Oct 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
>
It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon
>
begin with "I":
I find
this to be the most remarkable and important impact (literarilly
<pardon
the spelling I'm drunk>) of the beats.
It was the brutal honesty
of how
life really was for a particular portion of the population. That
simple
fact has completely changed literature since.
Besides from Tom W.,
Hunter
S. and the lot making journalism a real creative expression of art,
the way
novels are written has changed. The
proliferation of real people
telling
their own experiences and struggles has grown exponentially. You
just
wouldn't find the uncomposed (only slightly edited), raw emotion and
expression
of everyday life. The subjective
experience has, within it
(the
beats allowed the world to discover and as post-modernism would bring
with it
screaming into the world), a modicum of generalized reality. That
there
can be such general truth in personal experinece is the kind of
thing
to make you believe in God or destiny or some such other head cheese
(see
Footnote to Howl if you don't believe me).
Think how many people now
want to
tell _their_ story. This is what made
that feasible. If there is
talent
in the telling, there can be something learned about our own lives
and
realities from anyone's experience.
Makes people say "I dig".
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:02:26 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU
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I still
find this rather unremarkable. I would
appreciate Rinaldo's
help,
but I believe that Dante starts the Divine Comedy with this
observation
that in the middle of life's journey the following occured.
First
person narrative is not new. The Beat
writers certainly did
something
rather more personal with it than Dante, more personal than
Proust,
more personal than Thomas Wolfe even but this is a progression
of a
tendency that goes at least back to the Romantics. What makes Howl
exceptional
has very little to do with the fact that it starts with
"I".
js
Alex
Howard wrote:
>
> On
Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
>
>
> It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat
canon
>
> begin with "I":
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 00:20:47 -0000
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From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
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Marlene,
The point I was trying to make, and the
one I think Leon was trying to
help me
with is this: our less than thoughtful
counterparts in everyday
society,
the drones who accept the things they see on the big screen and the
little
one, are being sold a bill of goods.
I'm concerned about this. I
want to
know the truth, and while TLTICS is truthful in some senses, the
idea
that Neal--the inspiration of the beat generation--is looking for some
ideal
family, is completely out of tune with what Neal was about. I thank
Leon
for pointing this out to me.
I like how you say that Neal is a
mythological character, and in some
senses
I have to agree. What I don't agree
with someone selling me an idea
that is
fundamentally incorrect, and on some levels I feel like a goof
because
I didn't see it for myself. The beats
weren't about the ideal
family,
they recognized early on that this was a false idea: the Eisenhower
era was
upon them and they were vigorously calling it a sham with everything
they
did.
Bruce
bwhartmanjr@iname.com
The
Trane Station
http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Sunday, October 12, 1997 1:03 AM
Subject:
Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
>Leon
and Bruce,
>i've
been very interested in your discussion and wanted to add my two
sense.
>I
saw the movie and then read the letter so my perspective is probably
>completely
different then yours. Anyway what i wanted to say is even if the
>director
stayed as close to the letter as possible, don't you think it
would
>be
extremely diffucult to have an accurate portrayal of Neal? I mean he is
a
>myth
in himself and we, well i for one, haven't found out who "neal"
really
>is.
Whether or not a family, or at least the ideal family, was what he
really
>strived
for, or even his true character. Being the subject of the beats
>writing,
he is the legend we can only know by their interpretation of him.
As
>for
the director's creative license, it is his vision, based on fact, but
>still
his vision of the character and what he interpreted from the letter.
>
> ~~Marlene
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:44:20 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU
Comments:
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Arthur
Nusbaum wrote:
> WSB's "the
> IS
of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.
>
>
Furtive Regards,
>
>
Arthur
trick
memory arthur,
where
is this ah pook located???
Interesting
that they begin with "I" and colt-45 ends with "I lived."
Wonder
if that means anything to anybody :)
LEON --
How can a 72 year old man go zooming around at a summer of love
celebration? I hope i have half as much energy as you do
when i move up
from my
current 36 to your age. I guess you'll
be older by then -
unless
you're one of those who grows younger as time passes like Merlin
and my
old mentor donn w. parson.
what is
the reason for Summer of Love celebration in AUTUMN???? makes
very
little sense to me.
i saw
the best minds of a generation not even able to tell one solstice
from
another ... perhaps that's where we're headed~
no
insomnia tonight folks .
just
woke up and checked on way from sofa to bedroom.
in the
words of the post-Nagasaki BARD (Exterminator):
"Do EZ"
david
rhaesa
nita
#23
five
hundred east crawford street
salina,
kansas, u.s.a. earth
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 02:46:09 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
Comments:
To: vorys@concentric.net
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vorys
wrote:
>
>
Diane Carter wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I also do not see Howl as a "period piece." It does what most good
>
> writing does and transcends time.
Do you really see a different America
>
> today?
>
> DC
> It
was a different America for the author when he died. It is daily a
>
different America for me. No easy mobility in the economy, no cheap
>
rents in the urban centers, less idealistic of our global role, email as
>
means of quick communication ... to name a few.
> Do
you still see America as 50's America?
>
The poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of
>
Ginsberg will become static and fixed.
>
What Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from now.
>
Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.
>
Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal
>
something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you
>
interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.
>
Steve
it
sounds as if "America" is the "period piece"....
dbr
salina,
KANSAS
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:05:03 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU
Comments:
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Arthur
Nusbaum wrote:
>
>
Diane & David:
>
>
It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon
>
begin with "I":
>
>
"I saw the best minds of my generation...."
>
-Allen Ginsberg, HOWL
>
>
"I first met Dean...."
>
-Jack Kerouac, ON THE ROAD
>
>
"I can feel the heat closing in...."
>
-William S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH
>
>
Your discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers. WSB's "the
> IS
of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.
>
>
Furtive Regards,
>
>
Arthur
odd
that Howl doesn't start out with "WE" saw the best minds ... given
the
connection between the Beat authors as a "core-group". Your post
suggests
that despite the collective connections between "THE BIG 3",
still a
grand sense of individuality is maintained ... the beat
collective
does not require an abandonment of self to the "Beat
Pathway".
As
opposed to the previous Howl in American History "We the people in
order
to ..." "We hold these truths
to be self evident" "etc. etc.
etc."
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
Earth!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:06:18 +0800
Reply-To: jackbing@pacific.net.sg
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From: Lim Lee Ching
<jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
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hello?
anybody there?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:20:40 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the Ego Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd:
Rejected posting to
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At
00.12 12/10/97 -0400, Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM> wrote:
>Diane
& David:
>
>It's
interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat canon
>begin
with "I":
>
>"I
saw the best minds of my generation...."
>-Allen
Ginsberg, HOWL
>
>"I
first met Dean...."
>-Jack
Kerouac, ON THE ROAD
>
>"I
can feel the heat closing in...."
>-William
S. Burroughs, NAKED LUNCH
>
>Your
discussions of "I" could apply to all 3 works and writers. WSB's "the
>IS
of identity" passage in AH POOK IS HERE also comes to mind.
>
>Furtive
Regards,
>
>Arthur
>
amici
beat,
may i
add an "I" quote by William Carlos Williams
the
"patron saint" of the beat?
at the
beginning of "THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL"
William
Carlos Williams writes:
" I.
THE FOG.
If
there is progress then there is a novel. Without
progress
there is nothing. Everything exists from the
beginning.
I existed in the beginning.
"
saluti
e felice settimana a tutti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 09:33:47 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it
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God I
wish I had a good anthology handy.
Great
"I" lines keep springing to mind.
"Arms
and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and the
Man"--don't
remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid
"I
think that I shall never see
A poem
lovely as a tree " . . .
Got to
be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm
JS
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:41:02 PDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen Ginsberg
Content-Type:
text/plain
>Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 21:02:23 -0400
>Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From:
Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: Life & Times of Allen
Ginsberg
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Leon
and Bruce,
>i've
been very interested in your discussion and wanted to add my two
sense.
>I
saw the movie and then read the letter so my perspective is probably
>completely
different then yours. Anyway what i wanted to say is even if
the
>director
stayed as close to the letter as possible, don't you think it
would
>be
extremely diffucult to have an accurate portrayal of Neal? I mean he
is a
>myth
in himself and we, well i for one, haven't found out who "neal"
really
>is.
Whether or not a family, or at least the ideal family, was what he
really
>strived
for, or even his true character.
Being the subject of the beats
>writing,
he is the legend we can only know by their interpretation of
him.
For
this reason alone it seems important to evaluate such
interpretations
against the source material that is claimed to be the
basis
for such interpretation.
>As
>for
the director's creative license, it is his vision, based on fact,
but
>still
his vision of the character and what he interpreted from the
letter.
>
Absolutely.
Everyone has their own interpretation of any event. I am
interested
in other viewpoints than my own. Hwever, that does not mean
that
claims made for accuracy of information presented to the public
should
not be looked at. All I am saying is that hey, let's have a look
at the
same thing that you are looking at and lets see if the
interpretations
you make from that material seem justifiable to me. To
you?
I can
support everything you are saying, except that I don't believe
that
the movie's interpretation of the letter is sustainable on some
very
important points.
leon
>
~~Marlene
>.-
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:56:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Angelo T <ATSUEDE1@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: jazz
Charles
Mingus
Charlie
Parker
John
Coletrane
Miles
Davis (pre 1976)
Billie
Holiday
Art
Tatum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:35:41 EDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Book Announcement
City
Lights has just issued "The Beat Generation in New York: A Walking
Tour of
Jack Kerouac's City" by Bill Morgan.
Eight walking tours
include
maps of neighborhoods, subway information, and "an insider's
angle
on Jack Kerouac's life in New York. The
book is available from
City
Lights (261 Columbus Avenue, San Francisco, CA 94133; 415-362-1041,
fax
415-362-4921). Price is $12.95+$2.50
postage & handling.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:02:59 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Roy Lichtenstein
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:05:32 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Patti Smith (Peace and Noise)
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Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:36:12 -0500
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From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: starting with "I'
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Arthur
N.: It doesn't seem unusual to me at all that these three major
beat
works start with "I" when you consider the. First Person fixation of
most
modern
American literature: think of "Huckleberry Finn," "Catcher in
the Rye,"
most of Walt Whitman's poetry, etc. etc. American
literature has always been
and
continues to be obsessed by individualism. Donald
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 14:53:54 -0500
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From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: the I in American lit.
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The
"I" in these works is really no different from the egocentric pronoun
that
appears
in most modern American literature from "Catcher in the Rye" and
"Huckleberry
Finn" to Updike, Hemingway, Vonnegut, etc. etc.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:12:22 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it
In-Reply-To:
<971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>
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At
09.33 12/10/97 -0700, James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET> wrote:
>God
I wish I had a good anthology handy.
>
>Great
"I" lines keep springing to mind.
>
>"Arms
and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and the
>Man"--don't
remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid
>
>"I
think that I shall never see
>A
poem lovely as a tree " . . .
>
>Got
to be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm
>
>JS
>
---
Vergilii Aenis
I
Arma virum que cano, Troiae qui primus
ab oris
Italiam fato profugus Lavinaque venit
litora, multum ille et terris iactatus et alto
vi superum, saevae memore Iunonis ob
iram,
5 multa quoque et bello passus, dum
conderet urbem
inferretque deos lation; genus unde
Latinum
Albanique patres atque altae moenia
Romae.
...
---
Federica
"Kikka" Ferrieri says:
In english the personal pronoun is
generally expressed.
In italian there's non need. Infact you can understand
the person from the verb and in greek
or latin is the
same thing. Probably the english
translation of Aenid by
Virgilio sounds like that "I say
the weapons and the man..."
because you are not allowed to omitt
it. But us a matter
of fact in latin it is not in such an
emphatic position.
If it was it would be "Ego arma
virumque cano.."
---
dear
friends,
i hope
the above mentioned Kikka's thought regard Aenid can help,
saluti
a tutti da rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:27:07 -0400
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: the I in American lit.
In-Reply-To: <34412ad16935616@mhub2.tc.umn.edu>
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Its not
mearly the presence and use of 1st person that makes the Beat use
of it
unique. In many ways its not, but it
was the investment of the
author's
life, character, and beliefs behind that "I" that I find highly
influential
in contemporary culture and literature.
The fact that "I" was
a real
person/speaker telling the story/communicating the idea as opposed
to the
1st person narrator not necessarily having anything to do with the
person
writing. Though this was true in many
cases, I find there to be
much
more of a fictionalization of accounts and characters in previous
cases. Not that the Beats were the first to do it,
but they were people
who
wanted to tell their own personal stories and ideas. They also
happened
to be brilliant and talented (in most cases).
I say simply that
they
made the personal pronoun personal again and that their use of it had
a
tremendous impact on fiction/non-fiction/poetry/film/music that has come
since. Not that they solely are responsible either,
but that they were
incredibly
significant in expanding and exploding the phenomenon.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:33:53 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Mitchell Smith
<Praetor77@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Spirit
Might
you be posting that too the group? Or is it too long?
mjs
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:39:57 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: cassady in yahoo
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hey
everybody neal has his own yahoo category under literary fiction
authors
or something. it's a brand new listing which contains a li.
kicks
page, wild bohemian page, and two others.
just an
update,
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:13:48 PDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Karen Eblen
<keblen@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: jazz
Content-Type:
text/plain
Benny
Carter
Coleman
Hawkins
>Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 13:56:09 -0400
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: Angelo T <ATSUEDE1@AOL.COM>
>Subject: Re: jazz
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Charles
Mingus
>Charlie
Parker
>John
Coletrane
>Miles
Davis (pre 1976)
>Billie
Holiday
>Art
Tatum
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:41:37 -0400
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!
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Page
updated once more! New Cover of the Month for November. Please keep
them
coming! Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks to all! Paul of TKQ. . .
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:31:32 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!
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Paul A.
Maher Jr. wrote:
>
>
Page updated once more! New Cover of the Month for November. Please keep
>
them coming! Go to:
>
>
http://www.freeyellow.com/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
> Thanks to all! Paul of TKQ. . .
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
I got a
"404 Not Found
The
requested URL was not found on this server:
/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
(d:/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html)
Is there another address I should try.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:05:51 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!
Mime-Version:
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At
09:31 PM 10/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Paul
A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
Page updated once more! New Cover of the Month for November. Please keep
>>
them coming! Go to:
>>
>>
http://www.freeyellow.com/member/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>>
>> Thanks to all! Paul of TKQ. . .
>>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>>
Henry David Thoreau
Sometimes
the server is down but not for long. The direct address to the
cover
is:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page5.html
Just
keep on trying! Thanks, Paul. . .
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:14:33 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!
Mime-Version:
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I got a
404 message when I jumped form the e-mail ; the page is definitely
up and
running.
Check
this out and let me know if it works now...Thanks, P.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:49:09 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!
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worked. thanks. interesting cover, looks very
modern. what year?
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:28:12 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: November Kerouac Cover of the Month!
Mime-Version:
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At
09:49 PM 10/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>worked. thanks. interesting cover, looks very
modern. what year?
>p
>
Quartet
Books, London: 1973
Illustration
by Ron Kirby
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:32:55 -0500
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: ON THE ROAD AGAIN
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Sign
off.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 20:48:39 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it
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Rinaldo
and Kikka
I knew
I could count on you guys to help us out--trapped in an
egocentric
language.
Wonderful,
those words.
js
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
>
>
---
> Vergilii Aenis
>
> I
>
> Arma virum que cano, Troiae qui
primus ab oris
> Italiam fato profugus Lavinaque venit
> litora, multum ille et terris
iactatus et alto
> vi superum, saevae memore Iunonis ob
iram,
>
5 multa quoque et bello passus, dum conderet urbem
> inferretque deos lation; genus unde
Latinum
> Albanique patres atque altae moenia
Romae.
>
...
>
---
>
>
Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri says:
> In english the personal pronoun is
generally expressed.
> In italian there's non need.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:02:38 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beat Catalogue Now Online
Our
Beat catalogue of new and used books, videos, audio, etc. is now
available
online...Check it out at http://www.waterrowbooks.com
We
still have a limited amount of official Beat-L T-shirts left....and when
they're
gone, they're really gone!
Jeffrey
Water
Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:12:51 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It Real or
is it Retro?
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Just an
Update from the Left Coast Indian Summer of Love event in the
city
today which I enjoyed with Leon and his charming and absolutely
stunning
daughter. Wonderful day in the city,
warm and clear. Wondering
whether
the concept was going to work until the chemicals kicked in and
then it
had majical, wonderfully funny moments.
Too
many people couldn's make it because of strokes or heart problems.
Kesey,
Ram Dass, and Ray Manzarek to name three.
Didn't see any Hell's
Angels
but we had a couple of stunning Blue Angels flyovers. Those of
us with
good hearts had a good time. Must be
the largest crowd Country
Joe has
played in a hell of along time. But it
really didn' matter what
was
happening on stage. The show was
everywhere. Lots of survivors
doing
just fine, thank you. Obligatory White
Rabbit and Purple Haze.
But the
drum circle was better.
And
always a treat to spend time with Leon, the Godfather, Tabory. I
wore my
Beat-L tee shirt proudly and I think we did the colors proud.
Thanks
again Leon and Rameh. Always nice to watch the paisley swirl
above
those Windmills.
James
Stauffer, slowly circling for a landing . . .
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:03:12 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It
Real or is it Retro?
Comments:
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
Thanks again Leon and Rameh. Always nice to watch the paisley swirl
>
above those Windmills.
>
>
James Stauffer, slowly circling for a landing . . .
this is
the tower. all is clear to bring it
home on this list. i will
say
that those stuffy burkeans won't want ya in there airport but nice
to see
some students are actually talking on their list too now! :) it
was
advertised as in the words of KB "an undending conversation" ...
lots of
month long stutters if you ask me. to
an illiterati the junk
that's
been connected already with the first lines of HOWL have been
wonderfully
enlightening. not certain what you mean
by "paradigm"? :)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:17:02 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it
Comments:
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
God I wish I had a good anthology handy.
>
>
Great "I" lines keep springing to mind.
>
>
"Arms and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and
the
>
Man"--don't remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid
>
>
"I think that I shall never see
> A
poem lovely as a tree " . . .
>
>
Got to be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm
>
> JS
don't
forget:
"I
was born a poor black child..."
??? steve martin ???
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:33:48 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It
Real or is it Retro?
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David,
>
>
this is the tower. all is clear to
bring it home on this list.
Thanks
for the all clear, still circling however, and I mistyped the
young
ladies name which should have been Ramah . . .
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:28:14 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It
Real or is it Retro?
Comments:
To: stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version:
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
David,
>
>
>
> this is the tower. all is clear to
bring it home on this list.
>
>
Thanks for the all clear, still circling however, and I mistyped the
>
young ladies name which should have been Ramah . . .
happy
landings. tower headed for the
sack. is there a good
beatliterature
poem on going to bed after scaring all friends in the
universe
with insomnia? nominations from the
gallery i hope!!! :)
david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:42:32 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: I "SAW" ....
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before
going to bed going to expose where my brain is moving ... yes to
the
second word of howl.
saw
the
ineluctible modality of the visibible.
i
recall past posts on previous threads about the notion of "Visions"
by
JK --
wondering about:
The
"Idea" of "Visions" from the perspective of the CORE BEATS
?
The
History of the "I Saw" in Literature that informed the Beats ???
What
anybody thinks about the "i SAW" .... ????!??!!!
over
and out
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 01:03:39 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Like Old Days in the Park--Is It
Real or is it Retro?
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shooting
with the men 1985
by patricia elliott
The
tall thin man
leaps
to a crouch
opening
fire on his own heart.
i
watched morgan stand stiff, posed,
ignoring
me, for who was she
but
some ol sow eyed gal.
I am
the ghost, the one that suvived.
trying
to smell the hidden secrets
in the
face of the horrid honest man.
ted was
green with fear
if this was a writer,
the
tall slim eye once again
baring
the tattered muscle,
He led
me once and then again up to the gun.
Both of
us getting past past.
I shot
fast,
He took
my hand ,
he
sang,
he wept
and gave me tears.
we
walked home through the dark.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 05:24:58 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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>
vorys wrote:
> Do
you still see America as 50's America?
>
The poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of
>
Ginsberg will become static and fixed.
>
What Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from >
>
now.
>
Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.
>
Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal
>
something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you
>
interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.
>
Steve
I still
question your ideas of "static and fixed," and especially "the
poem is
fixed in time." Certain the
meaning of the poem lies within how
you
interpret it. But my interpretation of
it today is probably much the
same as
those who interpreted it in the fifties and those who will
interpret
it 30 years from now. You asked if I
still see America as 50's
America. The answer to that question is both no and
yes. I certainly
see
technological and societal changes. But
I still see America as being
far
from what it can be, in the same way that Ginsberg did. I still see
an
America where the gap between affluence and poverty is still great,
greater
than it was in the fifties. I still see
the hungry and poor, the
mentally
ill, the suicidal, the people crying for help with no where to
go. I
still see jails and prisons filled with people whose only crime was
possession
of marijuana or drugs of an addiction, not violent crimes. I
see
people who simply can't afford health insurance, dying of illnesses
that
could have been treated with proper medical attention. I see the
plight
of the old and the weak and the weary at the hands of a society
that
cares more about a basketball player getting 30 million a year than
it does
about hungry childen or the homeless. I see an America where
children
are afraid of going to school in terror of being shot, an
America
where even color and sex still make a difference in where you are
allowed
to go and in what you can do. I still see as Ginsberg writes,
"Ashcans
and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under stairways!
Boys sobbing
in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!"
I still see
America
lifting Molach to Heaven, "They broke their backs lifting Molach
to
Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven
which
exists and is everywhere about us!"
And to go here from Ginsberg
to
Diane DiPrima, from her poem "Good Clean Fun"
"IS
THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &
GOOD
WILL WE CALL THE EVENING
NEWS
ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?
What
was the Gulf War but terriorism
wearing
the death mask of order?--
One big
car bomb it was
the
guys who drove it
are
dying now one by one--ignored!
Is acid
rain a form of terriorism? (Think for yourself.)
Is GATT
or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the
IMP their backup men?
How
long before they fight over the spoils?
Who'll
do the fighting for them?"
I see
the dream of what America can be as being a long ways from what
America
is. And I still see the possibility for
positive change that is
also
the underpinning of Howl. I think
anyone who sees "the poem fixed
in
time" is not truly hearing its
words or recognizing the power of
words
to transcend time.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:21:47 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: beata solitudo (Abiquiu, New Mexico)
In-Reply-To:
<971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>
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http://www.christdesert.org/pax.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:52:36 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James J Stavola
<JDSept@AOL.COM>
Subject: LOOKING FOR HUNCKE
I'm looking for Herbert Huncke's
auto-biography "Guilty Of Everything"
published
by Paragon House in 1990 which is now out of print.One would think
with
the beats being back in the spot light because of the death of Alan and
Bill
they would start showing up back in print again.Any suggestions??Also
any
readings of the Huncke Reader recently published yet by any
here?Good-Bad-Indifferent????
Thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:44:30 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
Mime-Version:
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This is
a very moving response. Thankyou.
>>
vorys wrote:
>
>>
Do you still see America as 50's America?
>>
The poet evolved while the poem is fixed in time. Soon recollections of
>>
Ginsberg will become static and fixed.
>>
What Howl means to you today will be seen differently 30 years from >
>>
now.
>>
Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.
>>
Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal
>>
something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you
>>
interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.
>>
Steve
>
>I
still question your ideas of "static and fixed," and especially
"the
>poem
is fixed in time." Certain the
meaning of the poem lies within how
>you
interpret it. But my interpretation of
it today is probably much the
>same
as those who interpreted it in the fifties and those who will
>interpret
it 30 years from now. You asked if I
still see America as 50's
>America. The answer to that question is both no and
yes. I certainly
>see
technological and societal changes. But
I still see America as being
>far
from what it can be, in the same way that Ginsberg did. I still see
>an
America where the gap between affluence and poverty is still great,
>greater
than it was in the fifties. I still see
the hungry and poor, the
>mentally
ill, the suicidal, the people crying for help with no where to
>go.
I still see jails and prisons filled with people whose only crime was
>possession
of marijuana or drugs of an addiction, not violent crimes. I
>see
people who simply can't afford health insurance, dying of illnesses
>that
could have been treated with proper medical attention. I see the
>plight
of the old and the weak and the weary at the hands of a society
>that
cares more about a basketball player getting 30 million a year than
>it
does about hungry childen or the homeless. I see an America where
>children
are afraid of going to school in terror of being shot, an
>America
where even color and sex still make a difference in where you are
>allowed
to go and in what you can do. I still see as Ginsberg writes,
>"Ashcans
and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under stairways!
>Boys
sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!" I still see
>America
lifting Molach to Heaven, "They broke their backs lifting Molach
>to
Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven
>which
exists and is everywhere about us!"
And to go here from Ginsberg
>to
Diane DiPrima, from her poem "Good Clean Fun"
>
>"IS
THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &
>GOOD
WILL WE CALL THE EVENING
>NEWS
ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?
>
>What
was the Gulf War but terriorism
>wearing
the death mask of order?--
>One
big car bomb it was
>the
guys who drove it
>are
dying now one by one--ignored!
>
>Is
acid rain a form of terriorism? (Think for yourself.)
>Is
GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the
> IMP their backup men?
>How
long before they fight over the spoils?
>Who'll
do the fighting for them?"
>
>I
see the dream of what America can be as being a long ways from what
>America
is. And I still see the possibility for
positive change that is
>also
the underpinning of Howl. I think
anyone who sees "the poem fixed
>in
time" is not truly hearing its
words or recognizing the power of
>words
to transcend time.
>DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:56:17 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Huncke Reader
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THE
HERBERT HUNCKE READER is now in bookstores. It's a beautiful
hardcover
volume, about 350 pages or so (I don't have it in front of
me),
and contains major portions of Huncke's books. The photo of the
elderly
Huncke on the dust jacket is haunting...terrifying, and is BEAT
beyond
belief.
The
significance of the publication of the HUNCKE READER for BEAT
enthusiasts
cannot be overstated. Huncke's prose embodies the
quintessence
of BEAT as well as anything ever published, including
anything
written by The Big 3...or 4...or 5...or, whatever. I'll go out
on a
limb and compare it to THE FIRST THIRD, by Neal Cassady, since
Huncke,
like Cassady, was a PRINCIPLE MUSE to Jack, Allen and Bill.
It was
from Huncke that the boys took the term BEAT.
It was
from Huncke that Bill got his first shot.
It was
Huncke who introduced the guys to Kinsey.
It was
Huncke...(etc.)
Buy
this book. And read it. All of it.
-John
Hasbrouck, Lurkmeister
--
***
JOHN HASBROUCK
***
Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago
***
http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:24:07 -0400
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From: Entropy Operator
<rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>
Subject: Re: LOOKING FOR HUNCKE
In-Reply-To:
<971013085235_-260264458@emout17.mail.aol.com>
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> I'm looking for Herbert Huncke's
auto-biography "Guilty Of Everything"
>
published by Paragon House in 1990 which is now out of print.One would think
>
any readings of the Huncke Reader recently published yet by any
>
here?Good-Bad-Indifferent????
Check
out www.amazon.com and www.a1books.com im sure you'll find it there.
you can
find anything at amazon. (i found my 1891 perfect condition first
printing
copy of "beethoven's letters" there:)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Eh
yanno she died"
-- Sid Vicious.. to the medical staff
who came to pick up his
girlfriend's dead
body.
----
"Buildings are waterfalls of
stone
That, spurting up with marble crest,
Are frozen and enchained in air,
Poised in perpetual rest.
But water seeks its level out.
So, when these fountains are unbound,
The cataracts of melting stone
Will sink into the ground. "
--
Louis Ginsberg
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:59:47 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject:
Re: LOOKING FOR HUNCKE
In-Reply-To:
<971013085235_-260264458@emout17.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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> I'm looking for Herbert Huncke's
auto-biography "Guilty Of Everything"
>published
by Paragon House in 1990 which is now out of print.One would think
>with
the beats being back in the spot light because of the death of Alan and
>Bill
they would start showing up back in print again.Any suggestions??Also
>any
readings of the Huncke Reader recently published yet by any
>here?Good-Bad-Indifferent????
> Thanks
http://www.bookzen.com/books/068815266X_b.html
The
Herbert Hunke Reader at BookZen
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 04:24:26 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
God I wish I had a good anthology handy.
>
>
Great "I" lines keep springing to mind.
>
>
"Arms and the Man I Sing"-- I guess it could be "I sing arms and
the
>
Man"--don't remember the Latin --Virgil, The Aenid
>
>
"I think that I shall never see
> A
poem lovely as a tree " . . .
>
>
Got to be beat, those two I guess, following our current paridigm
>
> JS
I don't
think that any of us are saying that the beats brought "I" to
literature. You also forgot to include Whitman, who in
Song of Myself
begins
"I celebrate myself and sing myself." I do believe, however, that
Ginsberg
in Howl took poetry to another level in the use of the I,
consequently
expanded to mean myself and my mind.
The song that Ginsberg
was
singing, indeed howling to those that would listen, was far different
than
anything that had come before it.
Before, the I in poetry was more
what I
would call confined, formed into a mold of what I, the poetic
voice
was and was expected to be. There were certainly limits to the
language
and thoughts that were considered to be poetry. Look at these
lines:
I saw
the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving
hysterical naked,
dragging
themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an
angry fix,
angelheaded
hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the
starry dynamo in the machinery of
night,
who
poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the
supernatural darkness of cold-water
flats floating across the
tops of cities contemplating jazz,
who bared
their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels
staggering on tenement roofs
illuminated,
who
passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating
Arkansas
and Blake-light tragedy among the scholars of money and
war,
who
were expelled from the academies for crazy & publishing obscene odes
on the windows of the skull,
who
cowered in unshaven rooms in underwear, burning their money in
wastebaskets and listening to the
terror through the wall,
who got
busted in their pubic beards returning through Laredo with a
belt of marijuana for New York,
who ate
fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in Paradise Alley,
death, or purgatoried their torsos
night after night
with
dreams, with drugs, with waking nightmares, alcohol and cock and
endless balls...
The I
of Howl is the I of previously unspoken thoughts. The I is the
mind
that was destroyed by madness and yet resurrected in the purity of
the
poem. The best minds become the
angelheaded hipsters who...The who
then
becomes us, each one of us who experienced or identified with these
things,
with this America. James, the I is not
new, but the I standing
there
in its utter nakedness was fundamentally new to poetry.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:18:57 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: howl takes off on burke-L
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Allen
Ginsberg is getting his just attention over on the Burke-L. Today
there
was questions about the **** portions which i did my best to
answer.
One
post said that Howl is perfect to employ KB's "indexing". I wrote,
"what's
indexing". Ironically, indexing
(though i'm vague on it still)
is
something KB created in examining Joyce's "Portrait of An Artist As a
Young
Man" which DC (who started Howl for me - and thus for BurkeL as
well)
just posted me a bunch of stuff about in the underground Ulysses-L
lastnight/this
morning.
The
KBers are wondering about some sort of connection between the ****
and the
Carl Solomon portions. I'm not certain
i understand their
questions
yet.
I am
still on the "I saw"....today.
Lots of memories for me because my
"episodes"
have involved auditory hallucinations as opposed to visual
ones. But perhaps the source of the psychoses are
something behind the
collective
of the phsyical senses? Today at
filling station "I saw"
ironic
Time cover about Buddhism.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:34:32 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>
Subject: Re: jazz
In-Reply-To:
<971012135522_173003044@emout09.mail.aol.com>
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Chet
Baker
Dinah
Washington
Sarah
Vaughan
Charlie
Christian
Lester
Young
and a
little Louis Jordan and Wynonie Harris thrown in for good measure
Anne
Sneddon
On Sun,
12 Oct 1997, Angelo T wrote:
>
Charles Mingus
>
Charlie Parker
>
John Coletrane
>
Miles Davis (pre 1976)
>
Billie Holiday
>
Art Tatum
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:41:01 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: jazz
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971013123337.20411C-100000@pioneer.nevada.edu>
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On Sun,
12 Oct 1997, Angelo T wrote:
>
Billie Holiday
>
Art Tatum
Can you
imagine these two together? Tatum whizzing quietly in background,
Holiday
just breathing those notes. Oww.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Why can't it just
be, Michael?"
Simunye, in conversation with
Foosi, September 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:35:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aviva Vogel
<Aviva99999@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it
DC, I
liked your presentation on how the "I" of Beat poetry was unique in
its
willingness
to "stand naked." Very clear,
well-written, and nicely-put!
Thanks,
Aviva
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:49:33 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON <sneddon@NEVADA.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac's bus station torn down
MIME-Version:
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As a
former Cheyenne,Wyoming native, I was saddened to learn that the bus
station
in downtown Cheyenne was recently demolished in an effort to
"yuppify"
the area. This was the station that
Kerouac mentions while
passing
through Cheyenne in "On the Road," and although it is a rather
peripheral
reference, I always took comfort in knowing that "Jack was
there."
The
station was built in the latter part of the 19th century and was
a
historical monument. Sure, it attracted transients...it was a BUS
STATION,
fer cryin' out loud, but I wonder if, when people were fighting
to save
it, if anyone mentioned that it had been immortalized in Kerouac's
novel. If they did, I wonder if it made any
difference. Cities seem to
be on
this hell-bent mission to destroy their history because they think
that
NEW=GOOD and OLD=BAD. My current
residence is at the top of the
list. Sad....
Anne
Sneddon
LV, NV
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 04:36:43 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: howl takes off on burke-L
MIME-Version:
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>
RACE wrote:
>
The KBers are wondering about some sort of connection between the ****
>
and the Carl Solomon portions. I'm not
certain i understand their
>
questions yet.
The
part "with mother finally ******"
I have always interpreted in a
couple
of ways. With mother finally succombed
to her own individual
madness. With mother finally out of my mind. I am not sure either
mirrors
what Ginsberg intended. The only
connection that I could
speculate
on is that Carl Solomon was in perhaps the same position as
Ginsberg's
mother in regard to his "madness."
The next line after the
mother
line also says, "Ah, Carl, while you are not safe I am not safe,
and now
you'll really in the total animal soup of time." How do I know
that my
mind is safe? How do I NOT know that I
may end up in an
institution,
in shock treatments, etc. because how different is my mind
from
that of my mother's or Carl Solomon's.
I think there is a very real
fear of
becoming lost in the depths of one's own mind, and also, the idea
that
those in society might think you mad merely for the different kind
of
thoughts you have. "While you are
not safe, I am not safe" is a very
powerful
statement.
DC
> I
am still on the "I saw"....today.
Lots of memories for me because my
>
"episodes" have involved auditory hallucinations as opposed to visual
>
ones. But perhaps the source of the
psychoses are something behind the
>
collective of the phsyical senses?
Today at filling station "I saw"
>
ironic Time cover about Buddhism.
>
>
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:16:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Angelo T <ATSUEDE1@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: jazz
In a
message dated 97-10-13 15:43:35 EDT, you write:
<<
> Billie Holiday
> Art Tatum
Can you imagine these two together? Tatum
whizzing quietly in background,
Holiday just breathing those notes. Oww.
>>
that
would be very interesting.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:45:10 EDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Sign-off instructions
Several
sign-off messages have been posted to Beat-l recently. You
can't
sign off by posting to Beat-l. To sign
off, send mail to
listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu. Leave the subject line blank. In the body of
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mail type unsubscribe beat-l.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:46:59 -0500
Reply-To: vorys@concentric.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Its only importance is its meaning to you in America today.
>
> Understanding the time and culture it was produced in may reveal
>
> something about the author's intent ... although ultimately how you
>
> interpret it today (even if different from the author) keeps it alive.
>
> Steve
>
> I
still question your ideas of "static and fixed," and especially
"the
>
poem is fixed in time." Certain
the meaning of the poem lies within how
>
you interpret it. But my interpretation
of it today is probably much the
>
same as those who interpreted it in the fifties and those who will
>
interpret it 30 years from now. You
asked if I still see America as 50's
>
America. The answer to that question is
both no and yes. I certainly
>
see technological and societal changes.
But I still see America as being
>
far from what it can be, in the same way that Ginsberg did. I still see
> an
America where the gap between affluence and poverty is still great,
>
greater than it was in the fifties. I
still see the hungry and poor, the
>
mentally ill, the suicidal, the people crying for help with no where to
>
go. I still see jails and prisons filled with people whose only crime was
>
possession of marijuana or drugs of an addiction, not violent crimes. I
>
see people who simply can't afford health insurance, dying of illnesses
>
that could have been treated with proper medical attention. I see the
>
plight of the old and the weak and the weary at the hands of a society
>
that cares more about a basketball player getting 30 million a year than
> it
does about hungry childen or the homeless. I see an America where
>
children are afraid of going to school in terror of being shot, an
>
America where even color and sex still make a difference in where you are
>
allowed to go and in what you can do. I still see as Ginsberg writes,
>
"Ashcans and unobtainable dollars! Children screaming under stairways!
>
Boys sobbing in armies! Old men weeping in the parks!" I still see
>
America lifting Molach to Heaven, "They broke their backs lifting Molach
> to
Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios, tons! lifting the city to Heaven
>
which exists and is everywhere about us!"
And to go here from Ginsberg
> to
Diane DiPrima, from her poem "Good Clean Fun"
>
>
"IS THE ASSAULT ON NATIVE INTELLIGENCE &
>
GOOD WILL WE CALL THE EVENING
>
NEWS ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN ACT OF TERRIORISM?
>
>
What was the Gulf War but terriorism
>
wearing the death mask of order?--
>
One big car bomb it was
>
the guys who drove it
>
are dying now one by one--ignored!
>
> Is
acid rain a form of terriorism? (Think for yourself.)
> Is
GATT or NAFTA anything but a pact among brigands--the World Bank, the
> IMP their backup men?
>
How long before they fight over the spoils?
>
Who'll do the fighting for them?"
>
> I
see the dream of what America can be as being a long ways from what
>
America is. And I still see the
possibility for positive change that is
>
also the underpinning of Howl. I think
anyone who sees "the poem fixed
> in
time" is not truly hearing its
words or recognizing the power of
>
words to transcend time.
> DC
Bravo!
I see you use this poem as a political
soapbox. Abbie Hoffman also saw
it as a
"call to arms". Your "yes and no" response is very
diplomatic as
well.
But to paraphrase another political exchange ... I knew Allen
Ginsberg
and you are no Allen Ginsberg. I am surprised that you have
time
for discussions. Are You running for office or are you a paid
moderator?
You assume to see as Ginsberg, you assume to
see as those who saw the
poem 30
years ago and as those who will see it
thirty years hence. You
finally
assume I do not hear or recognize the power of words.
You
seem to be an assuming person.
Steve
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:47:27 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Spirit
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Mitchell
Smith wrote:
>
>
Might you be posting that too the group? Or is it too long?
>
>
mjs
what is
the context of this post? hope to see
whatever it is on
beatspirit
too!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:24:41 PDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Karen Eblen
<keblen@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Howl/Madness
Content-Type:
text/plain
Idealism
and ideology must not interfere with the role of the
bodhissattva.
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 00:50:22 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Patti Smith (Peace and Noise)
i
listened to her cd at Virgin on Friday - LOVED IT!!
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:12:18 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)"
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: campy gen x meets Beats book
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hey
folks,
while shelving some books at my local
job i came across something
for the
pop culture section. I don't have it in front of me but it
examines
Ginsberg, Kerouac and Burroughs in terms of their beliefs and
somehow
appplies them to the 90s. It comes across as campy in some points
(e.g.
It talks about using Burrough's invisibility technique of spotting
people
before they see you) but is a good intro for readers who aren't
familiar
with the beats. I'll try to get the name of it unless anyone on
the
list has seen this thing. I apologize for the vague descriptions.
as for the Huncke reader, i have it on
reserve but while leafing
through
it i found it to be a well-designed book. In regards to "Guilty of
Everything",
i found a hardcover copy in the clearance section of a
bookstore
2 years ago. Its still available and is a great read. I love
how
Ginsberg sometimes would think of Huncke as a mooch in his
biography.
Meanwhile, Herbert was convinced Allen wasn't "really" upset
about
having contraband in his apartment. Just one of the joys in
reading
2 bios on people who were at the same place and time with
different
opinions on the situation.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:55:16 +0800
Reply-To: jackbing@pacific.net.sg
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lim Lee Ching
<jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: Re: The "I"'s have it
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sorry,
i missed the it. can anyone e-mail me?
thanks
ching,
who's been signed off, unknowingly, for about 2 months now.....
Aviva
Vogel wrote:
>
>
DC, I liked your presentation on how the "I" of Beat poetry was
unique in its
>
willingness to "stand naked."
Very clear, well-written, and nicely-put!
>
>
Thanks, Aviva
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:07:56 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: jazz
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I like
the way this list is shaping up. Nice
additions Anne.
I presume
Thelonious Monk was already on the list--on top, along with
Trane,
Miles, and Bird.
ANNE
ELIZABETH SNEDDON wrote:
>
>
Chet Baker
>
Dinah Washington
>
Sarah Vaughan
>
Charlie Christian
>
Lester Young
>
and a little Louis Jordan and Wynonie Harris thrown in for good measure
>
Anne Sneddon
>
> On
Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Angelo T wrote:
>
>
> Charles Mingus
>
> Charlie Parker
>
> John Coletrane
>
> Miles Davis (pre 1976)
>
> Billie Holiday
>
> Art Tatum
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:13:29 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: howl takes off on burke-L
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
The part "with mother finally ******" I have always interpreted in a
>
couple of ways. With mother finally
succombed to her own individual
>
madness. With mother finally out of my
mind.
Diane,
Well AG
usually read it " With Mother finally (fill in the Country Joe
and the
Fish cheer). But then what did he know?
js
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:19:49 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: The "I"'s have it]
MIME-Version:
1.0
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This is
a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------75D93F3C6F7F
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This
post seems to have been sent back by the list--perhaps AG's
language,
I am not sure--will try again.
--------------75D93F3C6F7F
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Message-ID:
<344253CE.1640@pacbell.net>
Date:
Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:01:02 -0700
From:
James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
Reply-To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
X-Mailer:
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To:
BEAT-L: Beat Generation List <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:
Re: The "I"'s have it
References:
<971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>
<344084AF.A58@midusa.net> <3440FBEB.5735@pacbell.net>
<3440B36A.24CB@together.net>
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Diane,
> I
don't think that any of us are saying that the beats brought "I" to
>
literature. You also forgot to include
Whitman, who in Song of Myself
>
begins "I celebrate myself and sing myself."
I
didn't forget. I was choosing things
without a Beat connection, and
Whitman
wasn't what I was looking for. I could have gone on for pages.
The
point I was trying to make with some humor is similar to the point
you
don't seem to think I am grasping. What
is interesting is not the
use of
the first person voice but precisely the things you mention,
challenging
the limits of proper literary language and concern.
I shall
never forget sitting in a university lecture hall in the mid
sixties
and being amused at the librarians trying not to express shock
as AG
shouted, " Fuck me, fuck me in my asshole." Clearly a new level
of
discourse.
James, the I is not new, but the I standing
>
there in its utter nakedness was fundamentally new to poetry.
> DC
But I
will go take my seat at the back of the class.
js
--------------75D93F3C6F7F--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:33:28 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: "GOOD jazz"
John
Coltrane, Art Pepper, Art Tatum, Art Blakey, Billie Holiday (jazz/blues),
Ella
Fitzgerald, Dave Brubeck, Charlie Mingus, Duke Ellington, Stan Getz, Paul
Desmond,
Django Reinhart/Stephan Grappelli... uh
oh brain got stuck. well
let you
know when other names pop in.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:28:23 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Jennifer Fagan
<Sundstrom0@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Bedtime Stories
David-
Wait
until you start pulling the up for 80+ hours, then the fun really
begins.
Reading
Burroughs on sleep deprivation is a whole new experience. =)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 01:53:04 -0400
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From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Jazz, bebop and otherwise...
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To the following suggestions I'd add:
The
bebop triumvirate is completed by adding Dizzy Gillespie to Charlie
Parker
and Thelonious Monk, ....with Klook
Clark on drums of course
to them
add...
Slim
Gaillard
Babs
Gonzales
Bud
Powell
...and
Richie Powell, Clifford Brown and Max Roach
Jimmy
Giuffre, Art Blakey, Lionel Hampton and Milt Jackson
These are the players and singers that
Jack and the others loved.
***************
from Angelo T."
Charles
Mingus
Charlie
Parker
John
Coletrane
Miles
Davis (pre 1976)
Billie
Holiday
Art
Tatum
****************
from Karen Eblen:
Benny
Carter
Coleman
Hawkins
****************
from Anne Sneddon:
Chet
Baker
Dinah
Washington
Sarah
Vaughan
Charlie
Christian
Lester
Young
and a
little Louis Jordan and Wynonie Harris thrown in for good measure
****************
from Michael Brown with an 'R'!:
Can you
imagine these two together? Tatum whizzing quietly in background,
Holiday
just breathing those notes. Oww.
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at
themselves, for they shall never
cease
to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:44:04 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bedtime Stories
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Jennifer
Fagan wrote:
>
>
David-
>
Wait until you start pulling the up for 80+ hours, then the fun really
>
begins.
>
Reading Burroughs on sleep deprivation is a whole new experience. =)
been
there done that...last hospitalization i was up for 192 hours
before
going in.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:42:04 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: [I"M an Uncle AgainFwd: Thomas
Gordon Stevens]
Comments:
To: babu <dkpenn@oees.com>, Virgil Balthrop <vwb@EMAIL.UNC.EDU>,
"tjardes, sue"
<tjardes@ups.edu>,
JTalley4n6@aol.com,
"stauffer@pacbell.net" <stauffer@pacbell.net>,
Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>,
smartin@mailbox.acusd.edu, SCOTT
HARRIS
<sharris@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>,
Robert Wick <rwick@cov.com>,
phares@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU,
pelliott@sunflower.com, "Meyer,
Linda Prof."
<lmeyer@quinnipiac.edu>,
"louden, allan"
<louden@wfu.edu>, "lingel, dan" <dlingel@why.net>,
brooklyn@netcom.com, kevin kuswa
<k.kuswa@mail.utexas.edu>,
"Kenneth M. Strange"
<Kenneth.M.Strange@Dartmouth.EDU>,
john sloop
<sloopjm@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>,
"hingstman, david"
<dbhingst@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>,
gordo2
<jgordon@oz.sunflower.org>, FtHaysdebate <Joeb@media-net.net>,
"Eric L. Krug"
<elkrug@kcnet.com>,
"EliCunning@aol.com"
<EliCunning@aol.com>,
Ed Panetta
<EPANETTA@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>,
DRTUNA@aol.com, "Dr. Roald
Tweet x7467" <ENTWEET@Augustana.edu>,
"dilley, benita"
<bdilley@castle.cudenver.edu>,
Diane Carter
<dcarter@together.net>,
Dallas Perkins
<dperkins@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU>,
"CVEditions@aol.com"
<CVEditions@aol.com>,
culver <nculver@fwenc.com>,
Cori Dauber <cdauber@EMAIL.UNC.EDU>,
Bruce Gronbeck
<gronbeck@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>,
"Beach@qconline.com"
<Beach@qconline.com>, 0Stine <StineKC@aol.com>
Comments:
cc: kudebate <KUDEBATE-L@ukans.edu>,
bohemian
<Bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>
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Date:
Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:21:26 -0600
From:
Sam and Beth Stevens <sbstevens@mcione.com>
Subject:
Thomas Gordon Stevens
To: Bob
and DJ Zasuly <djbob@sni.net>, Bob Zasuly
<bob_zasuly@jdedwards.com>,
John Yallop <jayladdie@aol.com>,
Susan and Fredrik Winterlind
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<imaa@midusa.net>,
Martha Turner <mturner@rmi.net>,
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Beth Stevens
<copro.bstevens@sdps.org>,
Scott Shay
<SGS@HaleyAldrich.com>, Jennifer Shay <mvrhslib@tiac.net>,
Gordon and Janet Shay
<FGS93RD@aol.com>,
David Shay
<72420.51@compuserve.com>, Dale Shay <daleshay@juno.com>,
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Chris Potter
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J Kay Melton <mubujubu@aol.com>,
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<sundaysoft@aol.com>,
Duncan and Nan MacGruer
<macgruer@mindspring.com>,
Candace Loesby
<cmloesby@juno.com>,
Bill and Betty Legge
<walegge@midusa.net>,
Ann Krueger
<DJWN79A@prodigy.com>,
Beth Hotmail
<bethstevens@hotmail.com>,
Bill and Beth Francis
<bfrancis40@aol.com>,
Jane Foulks <janef2@juno.com>,
Katy Edwards <llama@colorado.net>,
Kate Collyar
<midnight@dnvr.uswest.net>,
Wellshire Presbyterian Church
<wellshirepres@juno.com>,
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Just a
short note to let you know that Beth and I had a baby boy (by
c-section)
on Monday, Oct. 13 1997 at 6:59 p.m. in Aurora, CO. Thomas
Gordon
Stevens weighed 7 lb. 15 oz at birth, and is already talking in
complete
sentences. Both mother and child are
doing quite well, and the
father
made it through the entire affair without any medication whatsoever.
-Sam
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:03:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: howling on Burke-L
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i may
have misunderstood the questions off burke-L concerning the ****
and
Carl and so am suggesting a different interpretation.
i
personally am still fairly close to the "I saw". At this point i
still
feel that my experiences have less to do with the best minds than
most
sensitive hearts of a generation. Will
do some reflecting today
and
tomorrow of the "I saw's" that I saw in my walk through life's
"special
places". perhaps i'll even come up
with something worth
writing
down and sharing.
the
question appears to be (of course i may still be wrong) something to
do with
why the Carl's and others are referred to by name while the
mother
is generic mother. i have gut reactions
to this of course but
wonder
if there is information about Allen's perspective on this
question
out there someplace that i've not seen?
Any
help is appreciated!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
USA
earth
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:34:59 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: campy gen x meets Beats book
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:12:18 -0400
from
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sounds
like the newly published "Beat Spirit."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:54:40 +0800
Reply-To: jackbing@pacific.net.sg
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lim Lee Ching
<jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: howl spoof
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i
remember reading somewhere before that there is a spoof version of
howl
called yowl. anyone has any ideas on where i met get hold of that
on the
web?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:00:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: howl spoof
Comments:
To: Lim Lee Ching <jackbing@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
In-Reply-To: <344395C0.247@pacific.net.sg>
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I think
you can find it on a link off of Levi Asher's page. It's
HYSTERICALLY
funny! --Sara
On Tue,
14 Oct 1997, Lim Lee Ching wrote:
> i
remember reading somewhere before that there is a spoof version of
>
howl called yowl. anyone has any ideas on where i met get hold of that
> on
the web?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:08:42 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric R Wood
<wooderi1@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: howl spoof
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.971014115911.460051A-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
from "Sara Feustle" at
Oct 14, 97 12:00:00 pm
Content-Type:
text/plain
I found
it at http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Texts/Yowl.html
Eric
Wood
wooderi1@pilot.msu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:21:58 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: 7
years more Chic
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I don't
know how many are interested in this but there was some talk about
the
Time cover story.
Here is
a similar piece about the movie and Buddhsim in the US from The
Times
of India on Monday.
__________
Brad Pitt's bad karma:`Seven
years in
Tibet'
By Ramesh Chandran
Hollywood's irresistible
fascination with Buddhism which took
root in the 1950s has never
really dimmed over the last four
decades. Today's leading
proponents of Tibetan Buddhism such
as actor Richard Gere, who now
spends considerable time in
Dharamshala, recalls the days
when he was introduced to Zen
through the quixotic
interpretation of the religion through the
writings of Gary Snyder, Jack
Kerouac and Allan Ginsburg.
Today, the celebrity followers
and ``students'' of Buddhism come
in a much more serious stripe
subscribing to the various schools
of Buddhist thought that are
prevalent in this country that
includes
at least two schools of
outstanding calibre in California.
Apart from Gere, other leading
Hollywood luminaries who have
become deeply involved with the
religion include Steven Seagal,
Tina Turner, Martin Scorsese,
Harrison Ford and Herbie
Hancock. And emerging as Gere's successor as the
entertainment
industry's most indefatigable
proponent of Tibetan Buddhism is
Adam Yauch, the lead singer of
the punk-rap group --Beastie
Boys. Yauch has campaigned and
organised Tibetan Freedom
concerts and has recorded CDs
with songs titled ``Bodhisattva
Vov''. And if Hollywood cares
so much for a cause, can the
media focus be far behind?
Tibetan chic has been the subject of press obsession for long and
America's fascination with
Buddhism is a subject of a cover story
in a new issue of Time. The
press coverage in the past week is
also timed to coincide with the
release of two films in which
Buddhist religious philosophy,
China's occupation of Tibet and of
course, the Dalai Lama figure
prominently. The first of the two
films was released this week
--starring Brad Pitt, and
directed
by
Jean-Jacques Annaud, Seven
Years In Tibet is an ornate epic
about an Austrian mountaineer
with a Nazi past who encounters a
youthful Dalai Lama. The second
film with a Tibetan resonance
will hit the American screen
this December --Martin Scorcese's
Kundun that delves into the
extraordinary life of the Dalai Lama.
Brad Pitt, who has a remarkable
female fan following worldwide
recently starred as an Irish
terrorist in the flop, The
Devil's
Own.
He seemed to have had a hard
time perfecting that Irish accent --
here portraying an Aryan hunk
with a Nazi past, he has problems
too grappling with a dicey Austrian accent. Pitt, shot
against
the
majesty of the supposed
Himalayan ranges (the movie was filmed
in Argentina) with his tresses
dyed a pale champagne blond,
however, does a competent job
as the egomaniacal Austrian
mountain climber who finds
spiritual salvation through his
friendship with the young Dalai
Lama.
Written by Beck Johnston, it is
based on a true story of Henrich
Harrer, an ace mountaineer and
Nazi Party member, who heads
to conquer Nanga Parbat but
instead ends up in a British prison
camp in India during World War
II. After three attempts he,
along with expedition leader Peter Aufschnaiter escapes from the
prison and makes an arduous
trek to Lhasa. Arriving in that
cloistered kingdom, Henrich
Harrer gets to meet the 11-year old
Dalai Lama. The exuberant
friendship between the two lights up
the film as Pitt and 14-year
old Bhutanese actor, Jamyang
Wangchuk, who in a wonderfully
radiant performance as the
Dalai Lama brings warmth to the
screen.
Pitt's character then becomes a sort of tutor to the
Dalai Lama
answering questions from an
eager student --``what is a Molotov
cocktail'' and ``who is Jack
the Ripper''. As Harrer basks in the
comforting solace and
tranquility of Lhasa and the community of
Buddhist basks, in 1950, the
Chinese army invades Tibet as he
watches helplessly and the
Dalai Lama flees to India.
For much of its early scenes,
the film lumbers through
stolidly
as
Harrer selfishly leaves his
pregnant wife and heads for Nanga
Parbat. It redeems itself only
after Harrer reaches Lhasa and
encounters the Buddhist monks
and their boy-god. The mountain
scapes are jaw-droppingly
spectacular-- although it is in fact
neither Tibet nor India but the
Andes in Argentina. Director
Jean-Jacques Annaud talks about
constant pressure from Beijing
to force him to abort his project; he also points out
that
the
Indian
government dawdled endlessly
about granting him permission to
shoot in India and exasperated
he went to the opposite corner of
the world, Argentina, where the government seemed immune to
pressure from Chinese
bureaucrats.
Another intriguing oddity about
the film was that Jean-Jacques
Annaud, Brad Pitt and others
claim that they were unaware of
Harrer's Nazi background since
the book had carefully omitted
his controversial past. Only
after the German magazine, Stern
revealed Harrer's association
with the elite SS that they were
forced to make references to it, including the
swastika-emblazoned flag he
carried to plant atop Nanga Parbat.
Harrer, who is now 85, told the
press from his home in Austria
that he had not seen Seven
Years in Tibet and admits to its
``ideological errors''. He has
claimed that he is still close
to the
Dalai Lama and met him in
September in Trieste in Italy. He was
also quoted as saying: ``The
older we grow, the deeper (is) our
friendship''. As for Brad Pitt,
whose performance --Teutonic
accent and all --got very
modest reviews from critics here,
he has
inadvertently followed in the
direction of two other hunky actors
-- Liam Neeson (Schindler's
List) and Ralph Fiennes (The
English Patient) both of whom
portrayed sympathetic
characters with a Nazi past.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:40:18 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: I saw Time/Buddhism (was Re: 7 years
more Chic
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> I
don't know how many are interested in this but there was some talk about
>
the Time cover story.
>
hey, i
is the one who started that jazz. was
focusing on the "I saw" in
AG's
Howl and saw Time with Buddhism cover and I saw incredible
ironies. Probably not clear about what i meant.
currently
in midst of Haldol Haze which means half the time i can't
recall
how to tie shoe. It is lunchtime in
Kansas and the kitchen seems
like
something out of interzone...can't go there.
must go outside and
hunt
and forage for something to eat.
I saw
... the mind temporarily frozen in time/space.
I saw it and i saw
that it
was my mind. So i went back to sleep!!!
:)
peace,
love and understanding (in any order),
david
rhaesa
nita
#23
500
east crawford street
salina,
Kansas
gonna
go sit by the mailbox with GLORIA ... :)
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:13:59 -0400
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From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: 7 years more Chic
sorry
if this is too much off the subjesct, but
did
anyone see seven years in Tibet? heard it was good, but not from reliable
source.
If you've seen it, can you give me an overview and review?
Thanks,
~Marlene~
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:22:17 -0400
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From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: 7 years more Chic
sorry
about that, didn't scroll down, please don't kill me.
::shuddering::
~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:46:29 -0500
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From: Dana Lee Kober
<dana@SPIDERLINE.COM>
Subject: Re: 7 years more Chic
In-Reply-To:
<971014141215_2000311858@emout09.mail.aol.com>
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marlene. i've seen it and have never been to Austria
so didnt' notice
Pitt's
lack of perfect accent. I thought it
was worth the movie ticket
for
sure. My bf thought it had an almost
disneyesque ending. It was
good,
go see it.
On Tue,
14 Oct 1997, Marlene Giraud wrote:
>
sorry if this is too much off the subjesct, but
>
did anyone see seven years in Tibet? heard it was good, but not from reliable
>
source. If you've seen it, can you give me an overview and review?
>
Thanks,
>
~Marlene~
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:18:01 -0400
Reply-To: atrigili@lynx.dac.neu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio
<atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Organization:
Northeastern University
Subject: Re: howl spoof (for cats)
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Eric R
Wood wrote:
>
> I
found it at http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Texts/Yowl.html
>
>
Eric Wood
>
wooderi1@pilot.msu.edu
Then
there's "Meowl," by Allen Ginsberg's cat, which can be found in
Henry
Beard's *Poetry for Cats: The Definitive Anthology of
Distinguished
Feline Verse*: "with the
indigestible furball of the poem
in the
heart coughed up out of their own bodies onto the absolute center
of the
immaculate carpet of life."
Tony
*****************************************************
"I
don't believe in hunting. Give the
animals a gun,
and
then maybe I'd hunt."
--Mo
Vaughn
*****************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:48:03 -0400
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From: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Burroughs piece
In-Reply-To: <343E8149.573A@sunflower.com>
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On Fri,
10 Oct 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
Neil, i want to thank you. The peice
hit that criteria of mine, that
>
after years of searching i use for determining good writing. It was
>
interesting, made me think, led my mind on.
It had such a rich use of
>
perspective, the use of your insight gained from his, was touching to me
> in
my heart. I might have a different
reaction than others due to how
>
(the roads) that I knew William, but your peice brought many thoughts
> home
to me. I loved Williams art, I think
his art which may have lacked
>
this or that in technique but to me was strong and true, part of the
>
expression of his genius. Your use of
your art, especially the opening
>
siluette peice fit like a gold glove.
> p
Thanks
again, Patricia. It means a lot to me that my piece holds meaning
for
those that knew him, as well as for those like myself whose contact
with
Burroughs was tangential at best.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:23:46 -0700
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From: Jorgiana S Jake
<jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's bus station torn down
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971013123619.20411E-100000@pioneer.nevada.edu>
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Just a
quick comment regarding OLD=BAD, NEW=GOOD:
I was
in Dallasd last weekend for the State Fair (really a fun thing).
They
hold it at a place called Exposition Park in Fair Park. Kinda hard
to
explain but it consists of about 9 buildings built around a cool
reflecting
pond (that's really long). ANYWAY
(HERE'S the point!!), it was
built
in 1936 in the Deco style. Of course,
in the 50's they painted
over
all the gorgeous artwork. So while I
was there, they have on display
the
workers stripping the paint and uncovering the pretty. Cool, no?
Jorgiana
On Mon,
13 Oct 1997, ANNE ELIZABETH SNEDDON wrote:
> As
a former Cheyenne,Wyoming native, I was saddened to learn that the bus
>
station in downtown Cheyenne was recently demolished in an effort to
>
"yuppify" the area. This was
the station that Kerouac mentions while
>
passing through Cheyenne in "On the Road," and although it is a
rather
>
peripheral reference, I always took comfort in knowing that "Jack was
>
there."
>
The station was built in the latter part of the 19th century and was
> a
historical monument. Sure, it attracted transients...it was a BUS
>
STATION, fer cryin' out loud, but I wonder if, when people were fighting
> to
save it, if anyone mentioned that it had been immortalized in Kerouac's
>
novel. If they did, I wonder if it made
any difference. Cities seem to
> be
on this hell-bent mission to destroy their history because they think
>
that NEW=GOOD and OLD=BAD. My current
residence is at the top of the
>
list. Sad....
>
Anne Sneddon
> LV,
NV
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:36:53 -0700
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From: Jorgiana S Jake
<jorgiana@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The I in Howl (was [Fwd: Rejected
posting to BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CU
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971012020352.10129A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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Sorry
for the delay responding to this message...good article in Vanity
Fair
(Nicole on the cover) about the new trend in autobiog.
fiction...maybe
there's too much around. Good article.
Jorgiana
On Sun,
12 Oct 1997, Alex Howard wrote:
> On
Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
>
>
> It's interesting to note that 3 of the most important works in the Beat
canon
>
> begin with "I":
>
> I
find this to be the most remarkable and important impact (literarilly
>
<pardon the spelling I'm drunk>) of the beats. It was the brutal honesty
> of
how life really was for a particular portion of the population. That
>
simple fact has completely changed literature since. Besides from Tom W.,
>
Hunter S. and the lot making journalism a real creative expression of art,
>
the way novels are written has changed.
The proliferation of real people
>
telling their own experiences and struggles has grown exponentially. You
>
just wouldn't find the uncomposed (only slightly edited), raw emotion and
>
expression of everyday life. The
subjective experience has, within it
>
(the beats allowed the world to discover and as post-modernism would bring
>
with it screaming into the world), a modicum of generalized reality. That
>
there can be such general truth in personal experinece is the kind of
>
thing to make you believe in God or destiny or some such other head cheese
>
(see Footnote to Howl if you don't believe me). Think how many people now
>
want to tell _their_ story. This is
what made that feasible. If there is
>
talent in the telling, there can be something learned about our own lives
>
and realities from anyone's experience.
Makes people say "I dig".
>
>
------------------
>
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>
kh14586@am.appstate.edu
P.O. Box 12149
>
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586
Boone, NC 28608
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:18:27 -0400
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From: Russell duPont
<dupbooks@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Photo book on the Beats
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Now
available:
McDarrah,
Fred W., and Gloria S. McDarrah. beat generation: Glory Days in
Greenwich
Village. NY: Schirmer Books, 1996. First edition; 286pp; 240+
photographs
interspersed with writings by Ginsburg et al and comments of
the
authors. Small remainder mark, o/w F/NF. $40
Postage
$2.50 within the US
Russell R.
duPont
Bookseller
41 Star Street
Whitman, MA
02382
781/447-4091
dupbooks@tiac.net
Web Site.
http://www.tiac.net/users/dupbooks
Specializing in
books
and exhibition
catalogues
on the fine and
decorative arts.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST
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From: "THE ZET'S GOOD."
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Rocky Mountain Beat
Was
John Denver Beat?
--Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:17:16 EDT
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Beat
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST
from
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
On Tue,
14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST THE ZET'S GOOD. said:
>Was
John Denver Beat?
>
> --Dave B.
Well,
he had a song called "Rocky Mountain High." Does that count?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:46:00 -0700
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Beat
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At
08:17 PM 10/14/97 EDT, you wrote:
>On
Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:51:18 EST THE ZET'S GOOD. said:
>>Was
John Denver Beat?
>>
>> --Dave B.
>
>
>Well,
he had a song called "Rocky Mountain High." Does that count?
>
>
If it
does he's beat.
He also
had some song about he and his friends sitting around at night
passing
the pipe around.
Weirdly
weirdly John Denver was kind of beat.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:09:44 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: The "I"'s have
it]
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>
James Stauffer wrote:
> I
didn't forget. I was choosing things
without a Beat connection, and
>
Whitman wasn't what I was looking for. I could have gone on for pages.
>
The point I was trying to make with some humor is similar to the point
>
you don't seem to think I am grasping.
What is interesting is not the
>
use of the first person voice but precisely the things you mention,
>
challenging the limits of proper literary language and concern.
I just
thought the Whitman reference would be a good jumping off point
because
it connects to David in his contemplation of "I saw." The "I
saw"
is in visionary terms the connection to Whitman and Blake, and "I
see or
saw" in visionary poetry is different from its use in other
forms
of literature.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:16:04 -0700
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Madness/Howl
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>
vorys wrote:
>
> I
see you use this poem as a political soapbox. Abbie Hoffman also saw
> it
as a "call to arms".
I don't
use it as a political soapbox but I recognize its political
implications.
"who
reappeared on the West Coast investigating the FBI in beards and
shorts with big pacifist eyes sexy in
their dark skin passing
out incomprehensible leaflets,
who
burned cigarette holes in their arms protesting the narcotic tobacco
haze of Capitalism,
who
distributed supercommunist pamphlets in Union Square weeping and
undressing while the sirens of Los Alamos wailed them down,
and wailed down Wall, and the Staten
Island ferry also wailed..."
or who
in America, writes:
"America
free Tom Mooney
America
save the Spanish Loyalists
America
Sacco & Vanzetti must not die
America
I am the Scottsboro boys
America
when I was seven momma took me to Communist Cell meetings they
sold us garbanzos a handful per ticket
a ticket costs a nickel
and the speeches were free everybody
was angelic and sentimental
about the workers it was all so
sincere you have no idea what a
good thing the party was in 1835 Scott
Nearing was a grand old
man a real mensch Mother Bloor the
Silk-strikers' Ewig-Weibliche
made me cry I once saw Yiddish orator
Israel Amter plain.
Everybody must have been a spy."
Ginsberg's
poems had a political and a social impact as powerful as
the
literary impact.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 23:26:55 -0500
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
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From: R&R Houff
<stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: Unsubscribe from mail list
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Please
remove from from the beat list mail at this time. We
are
having medical problems in the house and I will not be able
to keep
up with it. I will notify you again
when I am up and
running. Thank you!
R&R Houff stand666@bitstream.net
Let me
know if I have done this in the right procedure..if not;
how do
I unsubscribe myself from the list???
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:38:10 -0400
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From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)"
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: burroughsian scholars?
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Is
there such a think as a "burroughsian scholar", one who researches
and
analyses
all of Bill's work? If so, this person would have libraries full
of
information based on books, letters and essays that Bill has written
over
the years. It seems that Bill has left us with an eternal supply of
information
and creativity.
oh here's a horrible thought: what if
a 90s beat film was made
and
corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a
Kerouac
"Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?
-some
humor....
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:36:20 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: The "I"'s have
it]
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
> I
just thought the Whitman reference would be a good jumping off point
>
because it connects to David in his contemplation of "I saw." The "I
>
saw" is in visionary terms the connection to Whitman and Blake, and
"I
>
see or saw" in visionary poetry is different from its use in other
>
forms of literature.
>
It
would have been a good jumping off point if I had wanted to make the
statement
you make. I was making my own and
wasn't feeling particularly
pedantic. If I had I would have come to you for
pointers.
I
wasn't reacting principally to David's "I saw" but to an earlier
assertion
that there was something remarkable in the fact that Howl, On
the Road, and one of WSB's books started with
"I". On the Road is a
wonderful
book but it is not a "visionary" work in the sense you connect
with
Whitman and Blake. I fail to see this
tradition at work in
anythings
of WSB's unless one wanted to arugue a very ironic version of
that
tradition that is essentially rooted in the style of Hebrew
prophecy.
JS
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 04:06:42 PDT
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From: Lachlan Jobbins
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Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Beat
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No
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:41:22 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: poem by Maggie Helwig
In-Reply-To:
<971012001236_1788395707@emout14.mail.aol.com>
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The
City on Wednesday by Maggie
Helwig
The
street at six in the morning
moves
in the darkness as knowledge moves in our bodies, blind
the hum
and transit through passages of night.
We
could not be more alone.
Each of
us, dark travellers, me who sits on the bed
at the
window in a cold dawn, watching.
The
lines of the city extend like bones through space,
not
asking for directions, burned by the wind.
But in
this cold blue moment I am
not so
afraid as I might have been
alone,
now, here.
Things
fall from us, I mean
when
our hands are empty, when our eyes are sore
and our
hearts imperfect;
until
we are wrapped in the comfort of morning
soft
children cuddled in the blankets of light and sleep.
In the
morning, grapes in my cupped hand, green,
pale
with water and sugar and faith.
The sun
floods Walworth Road. The city on Wednesday
abandons
itself to trust, to the constant hope
of
bright-coloured paper, wool and cotton, complexity.
The
gifts of the spirit that fall down around us
like
tiny wheels and tops and flags, red plastic kites
and the
smoke that drifts upwards from the cardboard burning
in the
yard next door,
our
journeys to the banks of the river.
At noon
I pause, in the sun, at a point in the air
and my
body aspires upwards. There is
no
other way through the city.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:47:30 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the Poetry of John Wieners
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To
Celebrate this Broken Man: the Poetry of John Wieners
for
John Robinson
Jeremy
Reed
Lyric
poetry demands a total commitment, an inseparable pact between the
poet's
life and art, and John Wieners has in every way fulfilled this
redoubtable
union. Poets in the 20th century have largely been in retreat
from
their calling, and have attempted to reconcile their art with
avocational
careers, and in the process have contributed to the social
unacceptance
that goes with being a poet.
John
Wieners steps out of a doorway. He's a legend to the few who celebrate
his
elegiac lyricism, and his consummately attuned ear. It's stopped
raining,
but the street shines like the points in a blue diamond. He's in
love
with glamour and torchsingers. He would like to be a beautiful woman.
It's an
obsession. In his loneliness, a mood that permeates all of his
poetry,
he is thinking of Lana Turner, Rita Hayworth, Billie Holiday,
Barbara
Stanwyck, Dorothy Lamour or Hedy Lamarr. He has assimilated and
personalised
theatrically camp gestures, but his rich inner world of
ambidextrous
personae is not easily translated into money. Again and again
his
poetry turns on the question of how to live from lyric, and how to
resolve
the dichotomy between the magic invested in the name of being a
poet
and the demythicized role as it is translated into reality.
Poverty
has nearly ripped my life off,
kept me
on the streets and in boarding houses,
drove
me into asylums and maddened drug-addiction
tenements,
where I lost my mother and father.
('New
Beaches')
Wieners
combines the poet and sexual outlaw in one person, and his angular
lyricism,
at times savagely polemical and at times gracefully poignant,
owes as
much to the 17th century songwriters as it does to Black Mountain
poetics
and the Beat Generation. Rhetoric and vernacular come together in
his
work, and his language takes a shine from symbolist metaphor as well as
tarnish
from dust kicked up off the street. Wieners is arguably the most
subjective
poet of his generation, he personalises lyric in a way that sets
him
apart from the transpersonal ethos explored by Olson, Creeley and Dorn.
And
it's the woman who suffers in his work, the wounded and devastated
anima
in his psyche which has him again and again consign his emotions to
the
self-evaluative poetic arena. It's the dramatization of suffering that
gives
his poetry the gestures of a torch singer.
Your
wife's necklace's around my neck
and
even though I do shave I pretend
I'm a
woman for you
you
make love to me like a man.
('To
H.')
Wieners,
finding himself in the passive role in his sexual relations,
invariably
interprets pain accordingly. His poetry is about maintaining a
wounded
dignity in the face of societal humiliation, and in spite of drug
habits,
breakdowns, and periods of itinerant vagrancy. He is the most
explicit
of gay poets, and it's much to his credit that he has pursued a
policy
of sexual honesty right from the outset of his career. There are no
duplicities,
equivocations or simulations in his sexual psychology. His
honesty
is often unsparing on personal and ideological planes:
I
suppose that's how I was born,
Come on
and go down on me,
because
I live in misery
far
away from the sea.
('Jimmy')
Where
do we find him? He moves through the late afternoon crowds, his eyes
making
a stab at a jeweller's window, and staying there for a long time, or
he will
enter stores and learn from the colours of the couture fashions,
and
imagine himself a diva leaving with a sequinned gown and a variety of
make-up.
No-one before has made a poetry out of his subject material, and
his
exploration of obsessive fetishes cultivated by a traumatised anima has
shifted
the parameters of what is thought to be acceptable subject matter
for
poetry. Wieners is essentially an American phenomenon in that British
poetry
continually narrows its focus, and would fail to integrate his work
into
its largely commonplace organism. Despite the appearance of a Selected
Poems
from Jonathan Cape in 1972, and an earlier book Nerves from Cape
Goliard
in 1970, Wieners remains arcane knowledge in this country, given
only to
the enthusiasm of a cult who cherish and keep his work alive
through
underground sources.
John
Wieners living in poverty at Joy Street, Boston, seven orange roses
beside
him in a glass, a long scarf draped from his shoulders. He has an
identity,
the panache of the poet transcending ruin to live in the light of
his
commitment. Wieners has never sold himself short, he has honoured his
calling
by dishonouring its alternatives, conformism and unemployment. His
eye
works to find the aesthetically redemptive particular:
Bulgarian
lilies, trans
sylvanian
tulips on a
rose
quartz stair-case bend
beneath
sunrise. Hun-
garian
roses twisted to shape
('White
Rum and Limes')
Wieners
follows in the tradition of le pohte maudit, the one who is a
danger
to society by reason of uncompromising vision. The one who goes all
the way
and cares nothing for himself in the process, like Lautriamont,
Rimbaud,
and Hart Crane. Wieners' work is about the retrieval of truth from
the
ideological complex of lies, and it's about maintaining a state of
creative
innocence in a world of experiential corruption. The internalized
process
of poetics creates purity when the energies are rightly directed.
Wieners
has remained pure in his situation to his gift, and is that even if
he is
blowing a guy in a parking lot or measuring a hit of morphine. The
pohte
maudit is the alchemist, he who transmutes all experience into
recognizable
gold, by which I mean lyric. And the poem is in itself the
reward
for a life of solitary exclusion, punctuated by the fanatical
enthusiasm
of the few who align with the work:
half-a-decade
of rest, the skin on my legs has changed it holds
together
now as
a rich person by itself, I have vowed I shall never be
again
and know
I shall
never be lonely again, because of the love that dwells
within
poetry's mouth
('New
Beaches')
It
takes an irrefutable courage to compound lines like these, and it's
given
to few to write them. Wieners is in his heightened moments, when
lyric
is aspiring to a vertical axis, visionary. Something in the line
dazzles,
and his native Beacon Hill is aureoled by his inimitably cadenced
poetic
speech. And even if he is lonely, and in love with married men, a
Billie
Holiday song accompanying his late-afternoon reverie, then his gift
has
been to dis-alienate those who are similarly ostracised and alone.
Wieners
has given an accessible poetry to gay culture, junkies,
transvestites,
transsexuals, and not least the lonely. And he has restored
dignity
to the role of being a poet.
Wieners
has made poetry out of want. Denied the life of material opulence
and
romantic love to which his aesthetic sensibility reaches, he has
imagined
their existence within his work. Like Jean Genet, who transformed
his
prison cell into any number of palatial rooms, and transmogrified his
solitary
sexual state into imagined orgiastic excesses, so Wieners writes
to
situate himself in a world vitalized to his needs:
Lost in
his arms for two days,
I find
my secret passions rewarded;
melting,
blended as before
receiving
kisses as from a King of the Black Sea,
no-one
able to compete with his necessity.
('We
Would Be Two Men')
Since
Behind the State Capitol, published in 1975, Wieners has largely
fallen
silent in terms of published work. His state of ravaged
psychophysical
dissolution has needed time in which to repair, and so the
legend
surrounding his name deepens. In the Sixties and Seventies he was
eminently
prolific, his tormented lyrics subscribing to form and rhyme when
the
latter were considered as impositional phenomena belonging to a dead
poetry.
His method of writing constellated precision at a time when form
was in
dibbcle.
Of his
long silence Wieners has said: 'I am living out the logical
conclusion
of my books.' Inside this broken man you will find Ava Gardner,
he
refers to her as 'the Master', and any number of the glam icons with
whom he
identifies. They are his inner reality. Take a walk across the park
with
John Wieners, and he is dejectedly withdrawn into his own inner
pantheon
of the stars. His clothes affect the little touches of style which
so
individualize his work. He's headed towards a gay bar. An autumn leaf
falls
in his hair.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:03:48 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: TKQ Web Page updated 10-15-97
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There
is a new link added. This link will take you to the page of Lowell
Folk
Musician Bob Martin complete with audio samples. Those who attended
Lowell
Celebrates Kerouac would have seen him perform at the Parkway Lounge.
An
interview with Bob Martin is currently available in The Kerouac Quarterly
Vol. I,
No. 2. Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks, Paul of The
Kerouac Quarterly
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:53:29 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: David Jones
<71224.1465@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Beat
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Thanks,
Dave. This is the best chuckle I've had on this list.
-----Original
Message-----
From: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 16:59
To: INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Rocky Mountain Beat
Was
John Denver Beat?
--Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:14:59 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Entropy Operator
<rush2@INSTANTLINUX.COM>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Beat
In-Reply-To:
<199710151357_MC2-23FF-D32@compuserve.com>
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Oh come
on,. its bad enough when people cant seperate the beats from the
hippies..
but from the sappy rednecks?
>
Thanks, Dave. This is the best chuckle I've had on this list.
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List"
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 16:59
>
To: INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Rocky Mountain Beat
>
>
Was John Denver Beat?
>
> --Dave B.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:03:47 EDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: TKQ Web Page updated 10-15-97
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:03:48 -0400
from
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
On Wed,
15 Oct 1997 14:03:48 -0400 Paul A. Maher Jr. said:
>There
is a new link added. This link will take you to the page of Lowell
>Folk
Musician Bob Martin complete with audio samples. Those who attended
>Lowell
Celebrates Kerouac would have seen him perform at the Parkway Lounge.
>An
interview with Bob Martin is currently available in The Kerouac Quarterly
>Vol.
I, No. 2. Go to:
>
> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
> Thanks, Paul of The
Kerouac Quarterly
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
I enjoyed listening to Martin at the Parkway
lounge and continue to enjoy lis
tening
to his cd. He reminds me of a cross
between Bob Dylan and Tom Waits, wi
th
maybe a little bit of late Eric Anderson thrown in. Several songs dealing w
ith Lowell
and one devoted to Stella Kerouac.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:59:59 -0700
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: The Kerouac Legacy--for Everyone or Just
a Few?
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October 15, 1997
I am sure readers of the Beat-List
will be happy to know that I have
won yet
another legal victory yesterday in my efforts to carry on Jan
Kerouac's
legal battle to preserve and make accessible her father's entire
literary
archive.
John Sampas made yet another attempt
to get Jan's suit dismissed in
Florida,
and once again Mr. Sampas lost. Judge
Shames in the Sixth Circuit
Court
of Pinellas County ruled against Mr. Sampas's petition to have the
case
dismissed, stating that the court in Florida must await determination
by the
Santa Fe (New Mexico) appellate court as to my powers as Jan's
literary
executor before any such dismissal can be considered.
The determination in New Mexico will
take place within a few months.
I am
confident of victory there as well.
Recently Mr. Sampas placed a statement
on the worldwide web that it
is his
intention "to eventually make available all of the manuscripts and
archives
of Jack Kerouac to scholars." He
made the exact same statement,
thru
his lawyer George Tobia, in New York, at Jan Kerouac's press
conference,
THREE AND ONE HALF YEARS AGO. Once
again, I ask why, if Mr.
Sampas
is sincere in this declaration, he does nothing to act on it? And
why has
he forced Jan Kerouac, and now myself in my capacity as her literary
executor,
to fight him inch by inch in court, to compel him to place these
manuscripts,
papers, tapes, notebooks, etc., in a
library?
Why does he not cooperate with me in
getting Jack Kerouac's papers
into a
library now? I have stated over and
over again, over the past two
and one
half years, my willingness to work with Mr. Sampas to see that the
Kerouac
archive is permanently preserved in a scholarly institution and made
accessible
to all scholars. The placing of these
papers on deposit in a
library
does not need to await determination of whether Jan Kerouac and Paul
Blake
should receive any financial gain from the Jack Kerouac's Estate.
That is
a separate issue, and if money is paid by a library for these
papers,
it could be held in escrow until a court decides whether Blake and
Jan's
Estate should have a share of it.
If, as Jan's executor, I finally win
some control over Kerouac's
literary
legacy, it is my intention to make it AVAILABLE TO ALL, not the
property
of a small in-group who all adhere to a politically correct line.
I would
like to see a Kerouac committee in Lowell, for instance, that does
not
simply organize presentations that please Mr. Sampas. I feel it was a
disgrace
again, at Kerouac week this year, that not a single mention was
made of
Jan Kerouac's death, no form of tribute, either in photos, readings
of her
work, spoken memories of her, was given--DESPITE THE FACT THAT JAN'S
REMAINS
WERE BURIED IN NEARBY NASHUA, NEW HAMPSHIRE, ONLY FOUR MONTHS
BEFORE,
on June 5, 1997.
I also read in the paper that Mr.
Sampas has selected Douglas
Brinkley
to be the only person in the world to have access to Kerouac's
papers
and other archival materials, for the purpose of writing a "defintive
biography"
that will presumably please Mr. Sampas.
I say this is not right,
that
those papers and archival materials should be available to every
scholar
who wants to write about Jack Kerouac--not just someone who has said
the
right sort of flattering things to Mr. Sampas.
These are the reasons for my continued
legal fight, which is
difficult
on my family, my career, and everything else in my life. I am
aware
that Mr. Sampas's friends will continue to say, as they have said on
the
Beat-List in the past, that I am doing this for money, power, glory, and
greed,
etc.
I will keep you posted on further
developments.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:22:30 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Donald E. Winters"
<winte030@TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: John Wieners
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Rinaldo:
Thank you for your quotations and comments on John Wieners. It has
been
years since I have read him and I now want to read everything I can get my
hands
on. Thanks again. Donald
winte030@tc.umn.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:25:32 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: burroughsian scholars?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971015003316.13313A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>
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On Wed,
15 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:
> oh here's a horrible thought: what if
a 90s beat film was made
>
and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a
>
Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?
Kerouac
happy meal: cheeseburger a la Mom with whiskey sauce.
Burroughs
action figure: eight Kali arms, seven whirled around by on-board
concealed
battery-operated motor.
Hand 1: holds pen
Hand 2: holds syrinnge
Hand 3: aims gun
Hand 4: holds sharp Benway scalpel
Hand 5: holds Celine book closed
Hand 6: holds kitten tenderly
Hand 7: holds Russian Orthodox icon of
Allen Ginsberg's face
Hand 8: holds nothing, does not
rotate. Arm is raised vertically,
palm open facing. Do not fear.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Why can't it just
be, Michael?"
Simunye, in conversation with
Foosi, September 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 19:58:47 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Beat
John
Denver may have been very sappy, and not even REMOTELY Beat, but a
redneck
he was not...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Entropy Operator
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 10:14 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Rocky Mountain Beat
Oh come
on,. its bad enough when people cant seperate the beats from the
hippies..
but from the sappy rednecks?
>
Thanks, Dave. This is the best chuckle I've had on this list.
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List"
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 16:59
>
To: INTERNET:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Rocky Mountain Beat
>
>
Was John Denver Beat?
>
> --Dave B.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:07:46 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: burroughsian scholars?
Michael,
thanks. funny and imaginative. ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Michael R. Brown
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 1997 12:25 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: burroughsian scholars?
On Wed,
15 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:
> oh here's a horrible thought: what if
a 90s beat film was made
>
and corporate america actually embraced such a thing? could you fathom a
>
Kerouac "Happy-meal" or a Ginsberg action figure?
Kerouac
happy meal: cheeseburger a la Mom with whiskey sauce.
Burroughs
action figure: eight Kali arms, seven whirled around by on-board
concealed
battery-operated motor.
Hand 1: holds pen
Hand 2: holds syrinnge
Hand 3: aims gun
Hand 4: holds sharp Benway scalpel
Hand 5: holds Celine book closed
Hand 6: holds kitten tenderly
Hand 7: holds Russian Orthodox icon of
Allen Ginsberg's face
Hand 8: holds nothing, does not
rotate. Arm is raised vertically,
palm open facing. Do not fear.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Why can't it just
be, Michael?"
Simunye, in conversation with
Foosi, September 1997