=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:47:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs and Alvaro Lapa
Comments:
To: dcaridade <dcaridade@geocities.com>
In-Reply-To: <199710191614.JAA03919@geocities.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun,
19 Oct 1997, dcaridade wrote:
>
Hi, I'm kinda new in this list (thanks for spreading the word Duarte) and
>
I'd like to know if someone out there knows anything about a joint
>
exhibition between William Burroughs and portuguese artist Alvaro Lapa.
>
>
thanks,
>
>
daniel caridade
>
dcaridade@geocities.com
The
best place to check for this info is "Ports of Entry: William S.
Burroughs
and the Arts". It has a list of all Burroughs exhibits up to
1996.
The book should be available in a decent art gallery book store, or
University
library, and I'm sure Jeffrey at waterrow@aol.com has copies
available
for purchase.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:09:54 +0200
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthias_Schneider
<magrobi@MAIL.ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?I=B4d?= like to quit the
list.
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Hi,
this is my second try. Could you take me of the list, please.
Thanks,
Matthias
Schneider (Berlin, Germany)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:19:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Kerouac's letters being censored?
Comments:
To: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<199710220453.VAA13132@iceland.it.earthlink.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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I am
especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation. That Ann Charters
says
John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published
and to
be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he
(Sampas)
found distateful. Including sexually
explicit letters Jack
wrote
to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his
drug
use or bisexuality or something.
Presumably, since Sampas will not
allow
Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also
disincluded
any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members
of the
Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should
be
handled.
If all
this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to
sugarcoat
Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent
than he
was. We deserve to see the real Jack
Kerouac, warts and all, and
no
letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are
legal
reasons or they have no merit at all.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:17:21 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Hello !
Comments:
To: Murat Balkose <balkose@egenet.com.tr>
In-Reply-To: <3435604D.3745@egenet.com.tr>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri,
3 Oct 1997, Murat Balkose wrote:
>
Hello,
>
> As i just started to subscribe BEAT-L, and i
wonder the
>
multinationality of this list.
> I subscribed it before but i did't read any
letters from Turkey.Anyone
>
speaking Turkish please contact with
me.
>
>
i'd introduce myself. i am student and interested reading beat
>
literature.i am not an intellectual and don't really read too much
>
books.
>
> Anyone wondering the last book published in
Turkish as a beat
>
literature is "The Cat Inside-W.S
Burroughs"August 1997.(i guess thats
>
the third book of Burrougs published in Turkish.)
>
What
are the other two? Naked Lunch, I would assume, and perhaps Cities
of the
Red Night? The Cat Inside is a bit of a surprise, if there's only
three
books translated. Don't get me wrong, I love The Cat Inside dearly,
it's my
favourite of his minor works (if you'll allow the distinction),
but I
wouldn't think it would be a big seller.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:32:10 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Gerry,
glad
you've stayed on the list, as well as Phil and Paul.
i know
you're busy with your Viet Nam book, but i wonder if you'd be willing
to
share any insights into Kerouac's approach to poetry and language?
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:24:58 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Blocking of posts
I did
not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I
have to
clear up one point. In response to a request
by Mr. Nicosia to
block
the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.
Maher's
posts, I would also have to block his because they were both
guilty
of mudslinging. I thought this was a
fair response. As long as
I am
the listowner, I will make decisions as to what is or is not
appropriate
to discuss on the list. It's clear to
me that this
discussion
is unproductive. Sure, people are free
to use the delete
key but
I have to deal with Mr. Nicosia's complaints that he is being
victimized. He has characterized the discussion that has
taken place as
a
"mugging." He has said that
people have ganged up on him. I don't
see it
that way. From my point of view, it has
been more like a tag
team
wrestling match. Gerry too has had several
people in his corner.
>From
my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten. I wish,
that
when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's
example
and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."
Unfortunately,
this is not the case.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:59:32 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Blocking of posts
Bill,
thanks for your clarification and for your very fair approach to the
matter.
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:29:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: wsb
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>anyone
have directions for making burroughs'
>inventions? I'd be grateful.thanks. matt
>mlpotter@student.umass.edu
Take a
piece of paper. Write on it. If you are so inclined cut it in half
vertically
and do the cut-up shuffle until it makes more sense. If your a
genius
you'll be within a half-mile of Burroughs, if you're not a genius, you'll
be
within 30 feet of me.
If by
chance you're talking about an orgone accumulator then you need to read up
on
Wilhelm Reich.
love
and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:32:15 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jennifer Stoner Dorson
<JenPeace2U@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies
available
Please
send me a copy of the Kerouac Quarterly sample too:
Jennifer
Dorson
115 Pin
Oak Drive
Carlisle,
PA 17013
Thanks
and peace to you.
Jennifer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:38:51 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997102210400247@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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I take
issue with Bill Gargan's claim that he "owns" this list. He
started
Beat-L but it is not private property. The
discussions herein
belong
to each and every one of us here who participates. Mr. Gargan
sent me
email off the list in which he stated that *he* and *he alone*
will
determine what is appropriate material for this list. Since Beat-L
is not
moderated, that is a basic threat of censorship that he claims the
right
to do because he started this list.
Because
one starts a threat of discussion, does not mean one owns that
thread
or can determine who may participate and who may not.
This is
a mailing list. We have the right to
decide which email we want
to read
and which we do not. Bill Gargan does
not *own* this list and
does
not have the right to make these decisions for us. He *started*
this
list, and for that we are grateful...and he maintains it, for which
we are
equally grateful
But the
list belongs to all of us. Mr. Gargan
stated in his email to me
that he
would shut down the list rather than let the fur continue to fly
in this
estate debate. I think if he wants to
leave the list himself,
that is
his business, but just because he started the list doesnt give
him the
right to decide for the rest of us whether we wish to contineue
reading
Gerry NIcosia's posts or anyone else's.
Richard
W.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:12:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022101047.12207A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> I
am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation. That Ann Charters
>
says John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published
>
and to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he
>
(Sampas) found distateful.
Well,
it is _Selected Letters_, not _Collected Letters_ so someone has to
select
them. That is initially up to the
editor, but the editor can only
print
what she (Ann Charters in this case) has access to. And it is
whomever
owns/controls access to those letters that determines who
receives
that access and what that access involves.
The letters
(currently)
being his property (not really but you know what I mean), he
has the
right to do so. I was disappointed with
the first volume myself
when I
first picked it up and saw that it was indeed _Selected Letters_.
Its all
a matter of who deems what important.
It would be great if
everything
he ever wrote, from letters to journals to poems and quotes
written
on bar napkins were published and the reader could decide, but
that's
not gonna happen. This type of
censorship is pretty common and
accepted,
its called editing.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:11:35 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Blocking of posts
Bill,
You are
a gracious host. I never saw any attempt of any kind from you to
stifle
talk except very fairly and reasonably beg your guests to not beat up
on each
other, to try to remember that it is your task to protect us from
such
injuries. I hate censorship of any
kind. I love to live in a world
where
all kinds of different notions flourish. Where ego shadows in fact do
very
often obscure the brilliant light and fruits of our labors. Where our
differences
can find expression. Where beating up is not allowed. You doing
good
Bill. Very good in deed. Thank you.
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Wednesday, October 22, 1997 7:50 AM
Subject:
Blocking of posts
>I
did not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I
>have
to clear up one point. In response to a
request by Mr. Nicosia to
>block
the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.
>Maher's
posts, I would also have to block his because they were both
>guilty
of mudslinging. I thought this was a
fair response. As long as
>I
am the listowner, I will make decisions as to what is or is not
>appropriate
to discuss on the list. It's clear to
me that this
>discussion
is unproductive. Sure, people are free
to use the delete
>key
but I have to deal with Mr. Nicosia's complaints that he is being
>victimized. He has characterized the discussion that has
taken place as
>a
"mugging." He has said that
people have ganged up on him. I don't
>see
it that way. From my point of view, it
has been more like a tag
>team
wrestling match. Gerry too has had
several people in his corner.
>From
my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten. I wish,
>that
when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's
>example
and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."
>Unfortunately,
this is not the case.
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:41:23 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
mr
wallner: you seem to go everywhich way the wind blows. i have heard
incessantly
what you think you are entitled to, and increasingly made
irritated
by your continuation of this subject long after our list OWNER has
asked
it to cease.
cease
and desist,
or,
create
your own list.
but
please put it to rest for at least a bit.
sincerely
mc
Richard
Wallner wrote:
> I
am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation. That Ann Charters
>
says John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published
>
and to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he
>
(Sampas) found distateful. Including
sexually explicit letters Jack
>
wrote to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his
>
drug use or bisexuality or something.
Presumably, since Sampas will not
>
allow Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also
>
disincluded any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members
> of
the Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should
> be
handled.
>
> If
all this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to
>
sugarcoat Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent
>
than he was. We deserve to see the real
Jack Kerouac, warts and all, and
> no
letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are
>
legal reasons or they have no merit at all.
>
>
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:43:09 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Blocking of posts
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
dear
listOWNER bill: thankyou.
mc
Bill
Gargan wrote:
> I
did not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I
>
have to clear up one point. In response
to a request by Mr. Nicosia to
>
block the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.
>
Maher's posts, I would also have to block his because they were both
>
guilty of mudslinging. I thought this
was a fair response. As long as
> I
am the listowner, I will make decisions as to what is or is not
>
appropriate to discuss on the list.
It's clear to me that this
>
discussion is unproductive. Sure,
people are free to use the delete
>
key but I have to deal with Mr. Nicosia's complaints that he is being
>
victimized. He has characterized the
discussion that has taken place as
> a
"mugging." He has said that
people have ganged up on him. I don't
>
see it that way. From my point of view,
it has been more like a tag
>
team wrestling match. Gerry too has had
several people in his corner.
>
>From my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten. I wish,
>
that when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's
>
example and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."
>
Unfortunately, this is not the case.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:44:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: wsb step-daughter?
Reading
H. Hunke's 'The Evening Sun...' he makes reference to a daughter of
Joan
Adams named Julie that lived with Joan and Bill in Texas. She was then
5 yrs.
old. Does anyone have any info on what
happened to this girl?
Presumably she was sent to live with more
responsible relatives after Bill
killed
her mom......Is she still alive??? Any
info would be appreciated.
s.e.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:49:40 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies
available
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'd
like a Kerouac Quartely , too. Please send to
314
Pennell Circle #2
Tallahassee,
FL 32310
Thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:36:48 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (fwd) a link to Beatnik
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997102019511559@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dick
Willis <dick.willis@sbln.org.uk> writ
>If
you are interested in adding sound, have a look at
>
>www.headspace.com
>
>and
click on the link to "Beatnik"
>
>Dick
>______________________________________________________
>Dick
Willis South Bristol
Learning Network
un
saludo a todos !animo!,
rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:49:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022101047.12207A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I
am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation. That Ann Charters
>says
John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published
>and
to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he
>(Sampas)
found distateful. Including sexually
explicit letters Jack
>wrote
to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his
>drug
use or bisexuality or something.
Presumably, since Sampas will not
>allow
Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also
>disincluded
any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members
>of
the Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should
>be
handled.
>
>If
all this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to
>sugarcoat
Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent
>than
he was. We deserve to see the real Jack
Kerouac, warts and all, and
>no
letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are
>legal
reasons or they have no merit at all.
>
>
>RJW
For
more see review of SELECTED LETTERS - JACK KEROAUC 1940-1956 by Clark
Colridge
in the Village Voice. I may be spelling Clark's name incorrectly.
Call
Reference at the library to locate the review.
In that
review it is one of his major complaints.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:57:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022113119.11623A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I
take issue with Bill Gargan's claim that he "owns" this list.
Richard,
When
someone takes on the task of starting and maintaining a list they have
the
right to set up rules that everyone must follow. Gargan really does
"own"
this list.
I can
understand your position, but yo'llnever fully understand Gargon's
until
you jump into "IT" and try.
If
someone does not like the way he runs it that person can complain to
Gargan,
or start a list of their own. I say this to clarify, not to
criticize.
I have
found him to be fair.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:06:55 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
MIME-Version:
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Mr
wallner:
you do
not own this list. bill gargan owns this list. i am beyond irritated
by your
whining.
go
start your own damned list
i like
this list
i like
bill gargan
i like
my friends on this list
i think
bill does a great job. he owns this list. this is NOT a newsgroup or
bulletin
board.
if you
can't stop your whining then leave.
and if
you have been on this list for some time, you would know that i have
never
said this to anyone before.
but i
am fed up.
go
away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe does
not owe
you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we make our own
karma.
yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.
(sorry
bill but i am rip shit by now)
marie
countryman
Richard
Wallner wrote:
> I
take issue with Bill Gargan's claim that he "owns" this list. He
>
started Beat-L but it is not private property.
The discussions herein
>
belong to each and every one of us here who participates. Mr. Gargan
>
sent me email off the list in which he stated that *he* and *he alone*
>
will determine what is appropriate material for this list. Since Beat-L
> is
not moderated, that is a basic threat of censorship that he claims the
>
right to do because he started this list.
>
>
Because one starts a threat of discussion, does not mean one owns that
>
thread or can determine who may participate and who may not.
>
>
This is a mailing list. We have the
right to decide which email we want
> to
read and which we do not. Bill Gargan
does not *own* this list and
>
does not have the right to make these decisions for us. He *started*
>
this list, and for that we are grateful...and he maintains it, for which
> we
are equally grateful
>
>
But the list belongs to all of us. Mr.
Gargan stated in his email to me
>
that he would shut down the list rather than let the fur continue to fly
> in
this estate debate. I think if he wants
to leave the list himself,
>
that is his business, but just because he started the list doesnt give
>
him the right to decide for the rest of us whether we wish to contineue
>
reading Gerry NIcosia's posts or anyone else's.
>
>
Richard W.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:09:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: What person would they like to meet?
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.32.19971021124142.006a9aa8@maila.wm.edu>
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>I
would say Allen would probably want to meet Walt Whitman. JK would want
>to
meet Jesus or the Buddha.
>
>That's
what I'm thinking right now.
>
>Jon
Once he
discovered her I think he would have sought out Meridel LeSueur.
The two
would have hit the road together. Both were wanderers, listeners,
observers,
recorders and eloquent, honest writers.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:44:55 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan
-----Original
Message-----
From:
James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
To:
Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Date:
Wednesday, October 22, 1997 9:28 AM
Subject:
Re: Bill Gargan
>Leon
Tabory wrote:
>>
>>
So far I am very grateful that Bill has not yet stepped in to really stop
>>
the heaping of verbal abusive mudslinging that the guests to his house
>>
continuing to indulge, fully aware that their host wishes to do
everything
>>
in his power to protect his guests from personal attacks by other guests.
I
>>
sympathize with Bill who I have seen to be extremely tolerant and who
has
>>
taken on a difficult job of creating and maintaining an environment to
>>
encourage expression that is not pesonally hurting other guests. I never
saw
>>
him stifling any idea, even when it strayed far from the mission of the
list
>>
that he created.
>>
>>
Stopping the beating up on others with words is requisite for any forum
>>
where the expression of ideas and opinions is encouraged. Bill is no
>>
dictator. He has never imposed his ideas or restrained the ideas of
others.
>>
Perhaps people who believe that a list could be healthier if run by a
>>
committee or the entire membership and guest list, could try to organize
>>
one. I might even join them if they allow me in, but it would be a
different
>>
kind of social experiment than this one. This one is thriving and indeed
>>
creating new hopes and possibilities for us. There will be others in time
>>
that will do better differently, but that is no reason to insult people
who
>>
are nurturing a beautiful garden, even if it is not the garden of eden.
>>
>>
leon
>>
>>
Mostly I wanted to put my voice in to let Bill know that I support him
here.
>>
>>
Thank you
>>
>>
leon
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:13:15 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: on the bus
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usually
i wouldn't send this in to the list, but what the hey, as it
might
at least entertain those of us who are still opening our mail
before
deleting it. and it puts my howl parody in context.
ROAD
TRIP
or, the
greyhound night of the soul
1997
Prologue:
Howl
with a WhineChaser
i saw the best part of my mind destroyed by
sleep deprivation,
starving
hysterical naked
dragging myself through the greyhound
stations looking for my
angry luggage
angelheaded hipster burning for the ancient
heavenly connection to
louisville and back
in the stary dynamo in the greyhound
machinery at night
who poverty and tatters and howl-lowed eyed
sat up wishing to
be smoking
marijuana in the supernatural darkness of
cramped seats and
angry
drivers hurtling us past the tops of cities,
leaving me to contemplating bladder control,
and patience.
who bared my ass to heaven while trying to
take a leak outside
of
cramped and longlined service stops,
wishing for the toilet paper,
who passed through yet more bus stations
with burning red eyes
hallucinating ohio and blake-light tragedy
for vertigo when
reading
on the road
who was expelled from the port authority
waiting room by angry
mop and
broom holding scholars of the war against
further grime,
who refused to cower in unshaven rooms in
underwear, praying
for enough
money to burn in wastebaskets and listening
to the terror
through the
aisles
who proclaims the aisles holy!!
i=92m with you in l=92ville, perry, as
you stand on one leg with fe=
z
on head
to prove sobriety sufficent
for one more vodka!
i=92m with you in l=92ville, luther, in
your shock and amazement stari=
ng
at our
howl-
loween power pumpkin!
i=92m with you and bickering, and awestruck
by your readings, jim,
kitchen
table and
twice told
i=92m with everyone, recordingnon-secret
tapes of lives and travels of
fellow
busmates
but also the rantings of the mad poets at
the kitchen table, and the
fine
rantings at the twice told!
all are holy!
even bus drivers are holy!
paranoid
and psychotic and angry holy busmen!
holy!
holy! holy!
(27 hrs
down and 24 hrs back, my own insomniacathon of the dark
soul of
greyhound night).
_____
tales
and travelers:
the journey
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And so
i go, like lamb to the slaughter,
shipped in box cars disguised
as bus
down to the bohemian ink/published in heaven event of spoken word
and
music.
Almost
paralyzed by fear of public speaking with those so practiced and
wise,
newbie eyed and hesitant, such small feelings mirrored in my
external
universe of the bus station, here in Montpelier, capitol citiy
of
VT=92s greyhound or rather VT Transit station: you see, it=92s a trail=
er,
no
inside seating available, in fact, it=92s more
like a box car, or,
more
accurately, two box cars clamped together, with tradkway made of
highway
abutment heavy concete blocks to perch on, weathered and rusted
nails
and all.
Just as
poh a white trash station you could fine in any appalacian small
town.
As i
said, i=92m off to the louisville rant for bohemian ink and literary
renaissance,
to read at the twice told coffee house event, to meet my
fellow
fellaheen souled bohemians, my brother poets on the net. The
brainchild
of Chris Ritter birthed by Ron Whitehead and all bohemes who
could
make the journey, this event looms large for many of us in this
community
of poets and other artistic endeavorings, coming soon after
the
first bohemian meeting at the falls in Patterson, NJ this past
summer.
A
sharing of opinions, life events, poetry and good humor, about to take
on
corporeal form in l=92ville.
So, at
last the bus arrives, half hour late, and i jump aboard after
lugging
luggage into bowls of the beast. It takes us 5 hours to reach
Albany,
as the bus winds its leisurely way through every hill and dale
in the
countryside, stopping at bus stops, churches, dairy queens and
more,
offiicial bus stops up here in the mountains. It=92s autumn, it=92s
beautiful.
Five
hours later, in the beauty of the autumnal day, we finally roll
into
Albany and i totter off in search of flush toilets and
companionship.
I am crazy with the need to have a conversation. I have
my tape
recorder out , and I turn to Jesse Jackson, a fine looking black
man
with some grimness around the eyes. I ask him to record his travels
and
anything else he cares to tell me. in his own words, jesse jackson
obliges:
=93Well,=94
said he,
=93i
just packed up all my stuff
i
walked out on the best job i=92ve ever had,
(fiber
optics)
because
i got to get back to Huston
that=92s
right
lock
stock and barrel,
i got
to get back to Huston
i got
to reconcile with my wife,
my wife
back in Huston.
you
see, because things are
pretty
rocky right now.
it
seems like it=92s going to be one
long
and ballistic trip-
my mind
my
mind, it keeps racing ahead
of me,
thinking
of everything waiting for me
when i
get home.
(by the
way,
you are
a nice person and i thank you
for
talking to me.
you
have yourself a good trip and all
yourself).=94
I turn
off the recorder and we talk awhile, both of us stand guard over
luggage
as each makes trips for bathrooms, for information, for food.
there
is no food. Soon the disembodied voice of the grey hound demands
we
stand in separate lines to board our respective busses. we part,
dragging
our luggage as we wish good luck and say goodbye.
The bus
i board is crowded. no opportunity for solitude and no extra
room
for all my stuff. I am grimly searching for the next best thing
when
Estella beckons to me. Estella a beautiful hispanic woman who will
be my
bus mate throughout the night and into the next day. Estella at
first
tells me she is too shy to talk into my recorder, but she does:
=93I=92m
from St Albans, VT and i=92m going to El Paso, Texas to pack up =
my
mother
and bring her back north to live with me and my husband. I=92m onl=
y
staying
the weekend, then, with my mother, i=92m coming right back - i=92=
ve
got to
get back to work, my mother won=92t travel alone.=94
Estella
is happy to have me as a seatmate.
she
opens up a bag,
spilling
out into our laps
grapes,
tangerines,
bananas
and
lots of red licorice.
She
shares freely with me, and we settle in comfortably.
Estella
has a happy soul and a deep feeling of family,
which
she also shares freely.
I muse in the night about these two people
who took a chance and talked
to me,
of their need for family and attatchment, of two people heading
to
Texas, on separate busses, going home, bringing family home.
Family.
I
myself have little family, i see my journey as a search for community,
an
extended family, if you will, of poets and magical thinkers.
Estella
changes busses at 9am the next day, and i finally pass out for a
few
hours, awakening as the bus pulls into the louisville greyhound
station,
and frees me from the doggedness of my travails and travel.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lousiville
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jim
Gardner is there to greet me with the best of southern hospitality;
presenting
me
with a
map of the city
antique
post cards
lunch
at the Twice Told
a brief
tour of the city
a
bedroom to myself,
into which i bombdive upon arrival,
morning
coffee.
in addition,
the kitchen
is soon
filled with perry, then luther,
the
following day, full of laughter pomes and great conversation,
and
somewhat drunken dumbshow antics
and
friendship.
In
addition, jim provides me with escort back to bus station,
while
in between the greeting and the send-off,
we fill
the days with talk
laughter
great
readings
and
performances
at the
twice told cafe.
A
golden time, the times i savor, when meeting instantly turns into
comraderie,
rapport, and which extends to the meeting of the other
performers
at the twice told coffee house. We meet Charlie from Amnesia
Motel,
and quickly swoop him up to join our list community -I
ceremonially
present a puzzled Ron Whitehead with our power pumpkin.
Despite
plans for howl-ing at the moon and other watering holes, we are
so
exhausted, we choose sleep and breakfast over late night ale-full
hours.
A
goodbye breakfast for Luther, with Ron betwixt and between dashing
into
parking lot to shower us all with gifts: posters, chapbooks, spoken
word
CDs! Jim takes Perry and me for a tour
of the city, the dam, and
fossils.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Going
Home
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I leave
the following day, Jim again escorts me to the greyhound
station.
Again, the bus is packed with little room and no chance of
sitting
alone. My eyes roam desperately about, searching for a suitable
seatmate
for this 6 hr leg of my journey. And then I see him: Tripper, a
member
of the Rainbow Family, all of 23 yrs
old and on his own since
the age
of 12. he is a lovely young man, tanned and with baby fat still
in his
round cheeks. his eyes smile. he tells me he is on the way to
join a
commune of
Hare
Krishnas in Wheeling, west virginia.
=93i=92ve been damaged by my
birth
family,=94 he tells me. Born illegitimate to mother with madness, h=
e
was
taken care of episodically by aunts and other
women in his extended
family,
always told by mother that it was his birth that ruined her
life,
alcoholic and emotionally ill, she sought to lay the blame on him.
Tripper
does not go by his birth name. His name is a rainbow family
name,
and he now seeks further family, community, spirituality with the
Krishnas.
Tripper did spend time in louisville, nomadic by nature,
prefers
the countryside: =93in louisville i=92d sleep all day and drink a=
ll
night.
the city, the city, it hurts me to the point of needing to drink
the
sickness away...and all my friends were vampires, but they did have
good
hearts.=94
I am
again reminded of my quest for community, rapport and support from
poet
friends. I have always had a difficult relationship with my family,
and to
all extents and purposes, have only a brother and his family left
me as
family. I=92ve had a stormy and thorny relationship with my brother=
,
but my
starry-eyed love for his children, my neice and nephew, help us
bridge
the abyss that our parents created.
My last
stop prior to returning to VT is to stay with his family in
Rhode
Island, to celebrate my neice Jesse=92s 16th birthday. I love her s=
o
much it
hurts at times.
So
there we were, Jessie Jackson, Estella, Tripper, and me - all
searching
for family ties, for reconciliation, for love, for community.
I wish
all of my seatmates blessings. I feel myself blessed by this
trip, this labor of love.
RANT
ON, BOHEMIANS, MY FRIENDS, MY FAMILY OF POETS!
James
A. Gardner
Luther
Jett
Perry
Lindstrom
Christopher
Ritter
Paul
McDonald
Ron
Whitehead
and
Charlie, from Amnesia Motel.
and
Derek Beaulieu, whose labor of love was the creation of our poster.
and all
who performed and spoken word poets who shared stagetime with
us.
and all
of you who could not attend.
Blessings
on all.
and
thanks.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:14:18 -0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Bruce Hartman
<bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
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Richard,
It's obvious to me that you don't quite
understand exactly what a
mailing
list is. When Bill Gargan says he
"owns" this list, he is statin=
g a
fact. He's not speaking in semantics as you
are=97in the final analysis,=
it
is his
to do with as he pleases.
Bill Gargan has been a model listowner,
and when he makes the request
that
estate discussions should be
taken off
list rather than perpetuated here, then you, and everyone else =
on
this
list have two options: 1) Go somewhere else and start your own list
(which
YOU would own) or 2) honor his request and get back to the real
reason
the Beat-L has been so succesful: worthwhile discussion of the bea=
t
generation.
The estate battle that has fleshed itself
out once again on
this
list has been horrible. It is
unroductive in the grandest sense. W=
hat
has
come of it all? A bunch of
Unsubscribes, a bunch of name calling, a
bunch
horseshit that has gotten way out of hand.
Typically, arounnd an event like the
anniversary of Jack's death, the
number
of subscribers skyrockets. . . what a
cheerful welcome those newb=
ies
have
received. For what it's worth: Welcome!
New Beat-L-er's, honest, we=
're
a saner
bunch than we appear right now.
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:58:06 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cos <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate
debate)
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On Mon,
20 Oct 1997 16:09:09 PDT Keith Medline wrote:
>
From: Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:09:09 PDT
>
Subject: A New SUBJECT???(not another Estate debate)
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
[snip]
While this is
> an
important piece, would not America be a better selection from Ginser?
>
Where is Kerouac, where is Lew, and Burroughs?
These men were certainly
>
influencial?
Feelings
on Burroughs in the academic community seem split between those who
think
that he was "the only American writer concievably possessed on genius
(Norman
Mailer) and those who think he wsa completely irrelevant (David Lodge.)
Strange
that one writer could inspire so much difference in opinions.
Tom. H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
"To
know, and be not knowing"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:32:44 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jonathan Pickle
<jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly sample copies
available
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Can I
get a Kerouac Quarterly too?
Jonathan
Pickle
CS Unit
5978
PO Box
8793
Williamsburg,
Va 23186-5978
Thanks. To whom and how much should we make the
check out to.
Jon
At
12:49 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I'd
like a Kerouac Quartely , too. Please send to
>
>314
Pennell Circle #2
>Tallahassee,
FL 32310
>
>Thanks
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:35:01 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sundstrom0 <Sundstrom0@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: 60's Counterculture
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For my
class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper
on an
aspect of the sixties. I want to do
something on the Beat Generation,
however,
it has to be more than a literary paper.
Does
anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on
60's
Counterculture??
Any
feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks...
jennifer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:52:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: Poema
Comments:
To: brittany@whidbey.net, HaynesE@Fairchildpub.com, tompur@relia.net
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Hold on to the
glittering eyes
those
wine-dark opals
shimmering
in blue porcelain
of moon blush
stella maris
so near to me
reaching whirling
the dervish body
fleshed rose
in your nearness
whirl in divine air
the dark hair
wings down on chest
cathedral of
hands clenched
palms pressed
caress linger
fingers to mouth
erupts the kiss
the holy work begins
COME
be-come one
come on be one
come down
be
loved beloved
yes
good morning
good yes
birds converge
bloom in blue sky
sunning blossomed
trees
the bells the bells
a sweet omen
ordains
the eternal return
unfolding chiming
dawn
of secret smiles
your eyes opening
the holy work begins
-----------------------------------------
----- by Sean D. Young 4/10/96
syoung@dsw.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:57:57 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Blocking of posts
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At
10:24 AM 10/22/97 EDT, you wrote:
>I
did not want to comment personally on the estate battle but I think I
>have
to clear up one point. In response to a
request by Mr. Nicosia to
>block
the postings of Mr. Maher, I told him that if I blocked Mr.
>Maher's
posts, I would also have to block his....
He has said that people have ganged up on
him. I don't
>see
it that way. From my point of view, it
has been more like a tag
>team
wrestling match. Gerry too has had
several people in his corner.
>>From
my point of view, he has given as good as he has gotten. I wish,
>that
when we come under attack, all of us could follow Jack Kerouac's
>example
and reply "I don't need your abuse, you can have it back."
To Mr.
Gargan (and Beat-List readers):
OK, now you're the one who's reopening
the worms.
I question your accuracy, Bill.
No. 1) I did not ask you, this time
around, to block Maher's posts.
I did
ask for that last May. This time I
suggested that there is a serious
problem
when people can keep posting things they know are not true--stolen
Columbia
U xeroxes that were not stolen, my supposed receipt of Kerouac's
royalties,
etc.--which DELIBERATELY MISLEAD THE BEAT-L READERS.
No. 2) I stick to the
"mugging" scenario. I posted
a
straightforward
notice of my legal victory in Florida and where and why I
wanted
to take the litigation. Within 2 hours
Paul Maher had posted his
"poison
touch" message, followed shortly thereafter by Chaput's post. A day
later
we had Gyenis and then a bit later Heminway checking in. Joe Grant
and
Bentz Kirby, seeing me overwhelmed, stepped in at that point to say a
few
kind words in my behalf, to keep me from having to singlehandedly stave
off
defamations from four different people.
No. 3) You claim I am as guilty as
they are. But when did I print
defamatory
claims about any of them? I did not
say, "Mr. Maher is
collecting
ten thousand dollars a month from Mr. Sampas" or "Mr. Hemenway
has
stolen xeroxes from Boston University"--those are the kind of statements
that
are posted about me EVERY DAY, completely off-the-wall charges that
have no
basis in fact. OR THEY MAKE ACCUSATIONS
ABOUT MY DEAD FRIEND JAN
KEROUAC,
WHICH IS ABOUT AS LOW AS YOU CAN GET.
What if I were to post,
"Stella
Kerouac was a big crook who planned to steal Jack's money"? You
don't
think they'd get pissed off if I said things like that about one of
their
dead friends?
So I turn around and tell them they're
lying and (just once I said)
"full
of bullshit," and then you call me a "mudslinger." I DO NOT THINK
THAT IS
FAIR.
Jack Kerouac stood for truth,
fairness, and justice for all, esp.
for the
underdog. Remember that too, Mr.
Gargan.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:59:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dont leave Gerry! Gargan should
resign!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971021181821.18771A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>It
isnt the place of a list moderator to censor the list
>inappropriately. The estate argument is a resonable topic
here, as long
>as
discourse is handled civilly. If Gargan
is trying to force Nicosia
>off
the list, he should resign a list moderator!
>
>Lets
have a vote:
>
>Should
Nicosia leave the list or Gargan resignas moderator?
Might
be a good idea if this slows down. A list is not a democracy for one
thing.
If we proceed in a laid-back manner we'll get past this conflict and
continue
to learn and share information and ideas.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:15:10 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
01:35 PM 10/22/97 EDT, you wrote:
>For
my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper
>on
an aspect of the sixties. I want to do
something on the Beat Generation,
>however,
it has to be more than a literary paper.
>Does
anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on
>60's
Counterculture??
>Any
feedback would be greatly appreciated.
>Thanks...
>
>jennifer
>
Dear
Jennifer, Oct 22, 1997
The book you are looking for is Bruce
Cook's THE BEAT GENERATION. I
think
it was just reissued in paperback. It
is all about the influence of
the
Beats on the 60's.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:16:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: my voice
i'd
like to share a poem also, in the midst of all this conflict. I'd like to
remember
the spirit of freedom and "get in a car and go" I'd appreciate
comments,
this is my first draft. here it goes....
Another
car poem
take a
drive with me tonight
arch
your back in the front seat
and
give me that wicked smile that promises
we'll
"get lost" on a dirt road somewhere
Just ride...
with
the coffe stained atrands of your hair
leaking
out the window
as your
laughter crescendoes
to the
shape of this little town,
to the
slip drip excitement
the
expanded view
the
canopy of palm trees and night road sound
humming crickets, and
"four wheels to the groud"
i'd
like to watch the world circle from the passenger seat,
as you
sprinkle ahes
into
the coated black air
Peppermint on your lips
"red afternoon in your
eyes"
let me
inhale you
in the middle of the night
with
those fuzzy, soft-shadowed inside the car senses
let me
smell your pine needle incense
watch
you with your knees pulled up
to your
chest
wishing
for some down-time
alone time
happy raindrop sugar sweet time
I know you come a live at night
time
i know
how you lower your eyes to the ground
as if thats where they belong
belong to the land
behold the land!
Grab onto the road!
Hold tight the night!
Take a
drive with me
take
the wheel
take
your big dreamsad eyes
take
the harvest moon
take
scented sounds spirits of foggy forest paths
take
radio songs and tall rusty haired country boys
take
your slitted mouth
that leans side to side
Take my hand....
we'll
spin inside the wet mosquito night
answering
the call of the highway
Two wind chasers mixing up a little homemade
adventure
in this
mad-based mad-crazed
sterile world.
~~Marlene
Giraud
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:24:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)"
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hi
folks,
i work for B Dalton Books which is
affiliated with B&N and let me
just
say that we never keep any books behind our counter. Our jack
kerouac
section is always well stocked with the latest releases which
included
the recent 40th anniversary edition of On the Road. Perhaps some
stores
have policies regarding this issue but in my case (A N.J. store
inside
a mall) we don't practice that type of customer service. This
includes
William Burrough's books which have dominated two shelves on
their
own in the fiction section. And reecently i have been on the
mission
to order The Beat Generation trading cards by Tundra Press (i
think
its Tundra) which is a rare item to find but nevertheless something
we
should sell to the public. All in all, my B.Dalton store is a beatnik
haven.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:20:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jonathan Pickle
<jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
check
out things concerning Allen's activism.
He was at the forefront of
the
Beats who mingled with the Hippies.
Check out especially his testimony
at the
Chicago 7 trial. It's beautiful.
Jon
At
01:35 PM 10/22/97 EDT, you wrote:
>For
my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper
>on
an aspect of the sixties. I want to do
something on the Beat Generation,
>however,
it has to be more than a literary paper.
>Does
anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on
>60's
Counterculture??
>Any
feedback would be greatly appreciated.
>Thanks...
>
>jennifer
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:31:03 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
Jennifer,
William
Lhamon Jr. wrote a book called "Deliberate Speed: The Origin of a
Cultural
Style in the 1950s" which deals , obviously, with the fifties, but
always
with longview toward the 60s of socio-political implications of the
Beats
and related aesthetics, ie, jazz,
abstract expressionism, early rock
&
roll. Damn good read on Smithsonian Press, 1990.
Good
Luck,
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:29:52 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Poema
lovely
Sean - thank you for sharing this.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Sean Young
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 10:52 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Poema
Hold on to the
glittering eyes
those
wine-dark opals
shimmering
in blue porcelain
of moon blush
stella maris
so near to me
reaching whirling
the dervish body
fleshed rose
in your nearness
whirl in divine air
the dark hair
wings down on chest
cathedral of
hands clenched
palms pressed
caress linger
fingers to mouth
erupts the kiss
the holy work begins
COME
be-come one
come on be one
come down
be loved beloved
yes
good morning
good yes
birds converge
bloom in blue sky
sunning blossomed
trees
the bells the bells
a sweet omen
ordains
the eternal return
unfolding chiming
dawn
of secret smiles
your eyes opening
the holy work begins
-----------------------------------------
----- by Sean D. Young 4/10/96
syoung@dsw.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:28:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Brian M. Kirchhoff"
<bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: What person would they like to meet?
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.32.19971021124142.006a9aa8@maila.wm.edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
and
i'll bet burroughs would have wanted to meet kafka.
just a
thought.
Brian
M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE
"Someone
must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having
done
anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial
On Tue,
21 Oct 1997, Jonathan Pickle wrote:
> I
would say Allen would probably want to meet Walt Whitman. JK would want
> to
meet Jesus or the Buddha.
>
>
That's what I'm thinking right now.
>
>
Jon
>
> At
03:14 AM 10/21/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>If you asked Jack, Neal, Allen, and William the following question, what do
>
>you think their answer would be?
>
>
>
>QUESTION: What person would you like to meet, living or dead; and why?
>
>
>
>I asked Kurt Vonnegut that question and he said Mark Twain. Maybe Jack
would
>
>like to have met his brother Gerard.
>
>
>
>A question for you all to ponder out there in webland.
>
>
>
>is Kurt beat?
>
>so it goes, Attila
>
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:43:23 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MARK NOFERI
<NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>
Subject: Jazz and American Culture
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain
Hi,
My name
is Mark Noferi - at one point, I was a sometimes
contributor
to this list, although my posts have
fallen
off completely as my workload has increased. I do
still
try to keep up with the goings-on, though.
Recently,
an essay of mine titled "Jazz and the Beat Generation:
The
Musical Model in Literature" was published in the recent
issue
of Jazz and American Culture, an online academic journal
originating
from U-Texas Austin. My essay dealt with how
Kerouac
and Ginsberg used jazz as a musical model for their
writing
at different points in their career, and how the culture
surrounding
the music affected their writing as well.
I know,
from following the list, that the level of knowledge on this list
is
extremely high - so I'd like to invite anyone with the time to check out
my work
and let me know what you think, I'd love to hear some feedback.
For
anyone interested in jazz, there are some other extremely interesting
articles
as well. The address for my essay is
http://www.dla.utexas.edu/depts/ams/Jazz/Jazz3/Noferi.htm
and the
address for Jazz and American Culture is
http://www.dla.utexas.edu/depts/ams/Jazz/Jazz.html
Thanks
very much,
Mark
Noferi
mnoferi@mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:47:37 -0700
Reply-To: Sarah Sage
<yb806@freenet.victoria.bc.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sarah Sage
<yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: Beats
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
I just
want to start out this message by appologizing to anyone I may
have
offended with any comments I have made. I'm knew on the list and I
dove
into a matter I don't really know anything about. Honestly, I'm
a
little unsure about this list b/c I don't Know
alot of beat stuff. I
do,
however enjoy this list and would like to get to know a few members
to feel
more comfortable when I send something to beat-l.-(Just to let
you
know where I'm coming from)
Has
anyone on this list met or been friends with any of the Beats?
Sarah
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:51:11 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
In-Reply-To: <3e676882.344e391f@aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
For a
direct account I'd say read _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test_.
Everything
that makes the sixties the Sixties (counterculturally) started
with
Kesey. You also get to see Cassady and
(briefly) Kerouac. And Kesey
was
heavily, heavily influenced by Kerouac.
Hunter S. Thompson would be
good to
bring in too, but I don't know of any critical works of the nature
you're
looking for. Thompson and the New
Journalists changed the way news
was
written and pretty much brought about the "creative non-fiction"
genre. They are directly connected to the Beats
(Kerouac and Burroughs in
particular).
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:57:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Comments:
To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
In-Reply-To: <01bcdee4$05474d80$0569e2cf@hartman>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
QUOTED-PRINTABLE
On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:
>
Richard,
>=20
> It's obvious to me that you don't quite
understand exactly what a
>
mailing list is. When Bill Gargan says
he "owns" this list, he is statin=
g a
>
fact. He's not speaking in semantics as
you are=97in the final analysis,=
it
> is
his to do with as he pleases.
When I
send an email to this list, I am sending it to everyone not just=20
Bill
Gargan, and it is the property of everyone who receives it. Bill=20
GArgan
does not have the right to decide for everyone else if they may=20
read my
email or anyone else's. THIS IS A FREE
AND OPEN LIST, NOT A=20
MODERATED
ONE....
It is a
mailing list, not physical property. It
is alist of addresses. =20
By
consenting to be on this list, we consent for everyone else on the=20
list to
have our email address. Gargan is not a
moderator. He is a=20
voluntary
participant who agrees to keep the list of addresses.
If this
was a private bbs on a computer Gargan owned, that would be=20
different. Then he would own it. He doesnt.
This is a public list,=20
that he
started...but still a public list.
He
should change it to a moderated list if he wants the control over=20
content
that he says he wants.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:48:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: on the bus
In-Reply-To: <199710221714.NAA09899@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
mc
wow!
sounds like you bunch who had a chance to get down to louisville for
the
reading had quite an event. i am honoured that i was able to help in
the
little way of donoating some artwork and time for the promotional
poster.
yr prose captures the highs and lows of the readings, as well as
the
bustrip beautifully. thanks for posting tis, esp in these troubled
times.
you
voice joyfully echoes around the room above the fighting.
i
imagine us all in one room (heres that image again) where much of the
room is
consumed in yelling and swearing, smallminded fighting, when you
start
readig your words off to one side. slowly people begin to realize
what yr
doing and one by one stop yelling and quietly listen to yr
beautiful
pieces. thanks for all youve done around here, marie - you
honour
us all.
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:21:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ron Guest <rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject: Let them post
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This is amazing. Gerry Nicosia sends a post after several
months
absence. A few post get nasty. We all condemn the nasty post and do some
big
time whinnig on the estate thread which might get in the way of who is
going
to play JK in OTR thread. Now the
estate thread (which does have some
interesting
elements) has turned into the who owns the list/get the hell off
if you
don't like it thread. I think some of
the same people that condemned
the
original estate nastiness are indulging in a little themselves against
each
other. Gerry, keep us informed. Phil, et al let us hear your side.
Bill,your
the man..let these guys post.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:21:22 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:38:51 -0400
from
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Mr.
Wallner, I own the list. I started it
and when I choose I will shut it dow
n. Start your own list if you like.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:47:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:19
AM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I
am especially concerned by one Nicosia allegation. That Ann Charters
>says
John Sampas has been censoring Kerouac's letters from the published
>and
to be published collections, ordering dis-included letters that he
>(Sampas)
found distateful. Including sexually
explicit letters Jack
>wrote
to his old girlfriends, and/or where he was too explicit about his
>drug
use or bisexuality or something.
Presumably, since Sampas will not
>allow
Jacks last letter (where he states his estate desires), he has also
>disincluded
any letters from volume 2 where Kerouac attacks any members
>of
the Sampas family or makes other references to how his estate should
>be
handled.
>
>If
all this is true, it is a crime against history, John Sampas trying to
>sugarcoat
Jack Kerouac and present him as somehow purer or more innocent
>than
he was. We deserve to see the real Jack
Kerouac, warts and all, and
>no
letter should be disincluded from the collections unless there are
>legal
reasons or they have no merit at all.
>
>
>RJW
>Most
letters from estates are edited in this manner out of respect to the
living
who may be offended or hurt by the contents of said letters in question.
Indeed
it would be embarrasing to see in print someone's negative comments
or true
feelings towards their subject. I do not remember how many years it
is that
a letter may be published after the deceased. Maybe it's 50 but I
could
be wrong. Paul. . .
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:50:17 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
How
would you feel if Bill said he would close the list completely? Then
would
you ask if he "owned" the list? Think about it. . .Paul. ..
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:31:37 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:35:01 EDT
from <Sundstrom0@AOL.COM>
Start
with Morris Dickstein's Gates of Eden.
Also Tod Gitlan's "Sixties: Days
of Hope, Days of Rage."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:44:03 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
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yo,
brother bill.
amen
mc
Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
Mr. Wallner, I own the list. I started
it and when I choose I will shut it
dow
>
n. Start your own list if you like.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:47:42 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: editorial message
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to limit bandwith, and for brevity's sake, to
those of you who read my
tale of
on the bus and reading, i neglected to mention that Tripper
listened
to the performance by, and read Paul McDonald's WRITE OF
PASSAGE
enthusiastically, and then read all of my chapbooks on board. It
was
great to turn him on to new stuff. he took down my snail mail,, and
i may
from time to time update his adventures of the soul with the
Krishnas.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:28:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: What person would they like to meet?
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I would think Allen would have wanted to
meet Blake...just to see if
the voice he "heard" in NYC was
really Blake's...and what would he
have done if it wasn't?
One would sincerely hope that, had Jack
met the Buddha on the road, he
would kill him. (my Soto is showing).
love and lilies,
matt h.
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
Re: What person would they like to meet?
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 10/22/97 12:09 PM
>I
would say Allen would probably want to meet Walt Whitman. JK would want
>to
meet Jesus or the Buddha.
>
>That's
what I'm thinking right now.
>
>Jon
Once he
discovered her I think he would have sought out Meridel LeSueur.
The two
would have hit the road together. Both were wanderers, listeners,
observers,
recorders and eloquent, honest writers.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
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07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:08:19 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.32.19971022142035.0068b3f0@maila.wm.edu>
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Also,
the whole LSD stinkaroo. Leary of
course, who was buddies with
Ginsey,
Corso, etc. Also, The Life and Times of
Allen Ginsberg video we
were
talking about a few weeks ago has footage of Ginsberg's testimony to
Congress
about LSD when it was made (about to be made, then) illegal.
Check
out Kesey's web sites (www.kesey.com, www.intrepidtrips.com) for
some
good info on that. Leary is sometimes
lumped in with the Beats
though
not usually in a literary sense.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:25:07 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
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>For
my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper
>on
an aspect of the sixties. I want to do
something on the Beat Generation,
>however,
it has to be more than a literary paper.
>Does
anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on
>60's
Counterculture??
>Any
feedback would be greatly appreciated.
>Thanks...
>jennifer
Just make sure you work in the following
quote:
"Ommmmmmm"
Allen Ginsberg, Chicago, 1968
(and a few hundred thousand
other times)
Gins' "calming of the angry
minds" in (Franklin?) park has to go down
as the most remarkable protest method
(next to gasoline, a saffron
robe and a match) in this century. That is the definitive Beat
influence on politics of the '60s.
love and lilies,
matt h.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:18:54 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997102215225368@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
Mr. Wallner, I own the list. I started
it and when I choose I will shut it
dow
>
n. Start your own list if you like.
>
Mr.
Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone on
this
list. Go ahead and shut it down. You cant stop the members of this
list
from collectivley communicating with each other.
So shut
it down. I have archives of this list,
I can put together a list
of all
the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can kill
it. The only difference is that I would never
consider mysef more than
just
another participant. I wouldnt bully
people off the list, threaten
others
or claim the right to determine which subject matter is appropriate.
This list exsists because of the people on
it. You can change the
forwarding
address. You cant kill it, not as long
as we want it to go on.
since
you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it. Period.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:11:20 +0000
Reply-To: foyeb@middlesex.cc.ma.us
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian Foye
<foyeb@MIDDLESEX.CC.MA.US>
Organization:
Middlesex Community College
Subject: Safe in Heaven Dead
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Greetings
from Lowell, Massachusetts! I've been on the list for a
while,
but this is my first post.
My name
is Brian Foye and I teach a course at the University of
Massachusetts
at Lowell called "Literature of the Beat Movement." I
also
teach a course at Middlesex Community College in Lowell called,
simply,
"Kerouac." (I know, I know, bottom feeding off the Beats, but
it
beats other jobs I've had in Lowell, like a stint in sanitation, or
assembling
cables for Wang Computers.)
Anyway,
the course on Kerouac at Middlesex Community College meets on
Tuesday
nights from 6:00 to 9:00. Yesterday, 21 October, we read parts
of the
Diamond Sutra, the Lankavatara Scripture, letters from Kerouac
to
Ginsberg on Buddhism, and a section of Kerouac's "Wake Up." We also
read
The Scripture of the Golden Eternity. "Do you think the emptiness
of the
sky will ever crumble away?"
At the
end of the class we piled into five cars and made the short
drive
up Gorham Street to the Edson Cemetery. We parked at the fork in
the
road just past 1300 Liquors and 1400 Motors, gingerly hopped the
old
green painted iron spike fence of Edson, and made our way to
Seventh
and Lincoln. One student, amazingly, produced a flashlight,
and we
walked through the cemetery on a cold October night.
The
conversation was about Kerouac, but in the cemetery it was hard
not to
think of Ginsberg's recent passing. Once, over dinner in
Lowell,
I spoke with Ginsberg about death. At the time we had a mutual
friend
in New York who was very close to death, and so we exchanged
ideas.
"Here is something I learned from Kerouac," said Allen. "You
could
live, and that would be good, or you could die, and that would
be good
too."
Ti
Jean. John L. Kerouac. March 12, 1922 - October 21, 1969. He
Honored
Life. There was a small photograph of John Coltrane on the
gravestone,
and a handwritten poem, two bottles of Tequila, an
American
flag, three formal flower arrangements, and a single piece of
a
jigsaw puzzle. One student left behind a check cashing card issued
by a
local supermarket, and another left behind a boquet of flowers.
As we
were leaving, another student reached down to turn over the
puzzle
piece. It was a piece of blue sky.
"Did
I create that sky? Yes, for if it was anything other than a
conception
in my mind I wouldn't have said 'Sky'--That is why I am the
golden
eternity. There are not two of us here, reader and writer, but
one,
one golden eternity, One-Which-It-Is, That-Which Everything-Is."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:56:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Beat-l (fwd)
MIME-Version:
1.0
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----------
Forwarded message ----------
Date:
Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
From:
Richard Wallner <rwallner@CapAccess.org>
To:
Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Cc:
Beat-L@cunym.cuny.edu
Subject:
Re: Beat-l
This is
the email I got from Mr. Gargan off the list this morning.
On Tue,
21 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
Mr. Wallner, if you would like to start your own list, please feel free.
> In
terms of Beat-l, I will decide what topics are or are not
>
appropriate for discussion and what guidelines will be used to govern
>
such discussion.
>
the discussion of Kerouac's estate are unacceptable on the Beat-l list.
> If
they continue, I will change this list to a moderated list, where I
>
will review all posts before letting them go out to the list or I will
>
shut the list down completely. Have a
good evening.
>
Who is
Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle? To threaten
to
change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this
discussion...this
stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in the
past.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:03:34 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat-l (fwd)
MIME-Version:
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please
richard, shut up and stop taking yourself so seriously. this temper
tantrum
is unseemly.
marie
countryman
Richard
Wallner wrote:
>
---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CapAccess.org>
>
To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
Cc: Beat-L@cunym.cuny.edu
>
Subject: Re: Beat-l
>
>
This is the email I got from Mr. Gargan off the list this morning.
>
> On
Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Mr. Wallner, if you would like to start your own list, please feel free.
>
> In terms of Beat-l, I will decide what topics are or are not
>
> appropriate for discussion and what guidelines will be used to govern
>
> such discussion.
>
>
> the discussion of Kerouac's estate are unacceptable on the Beat-l list.
>
> If they continue, I will change this list to a moderated list, where I
>
> will review all posts before letting them go out to the list or I will
>
> shut the list down completely.
Have a good evening.
>
>
>
>
Who is Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle? To threaten
> to
change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this
>
discussion...this stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in the
>
past.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:20:26 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022160541.604A@cap1.capaccess.org>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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>
Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone on
>
this list. Go ahead and shut it
down. You cant stop the members of this
>
list from collectivley communicating with each other.
> So
shut it down. I have archives of this
list, I can put together a list
> of
all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can kill
>
it. The only difference is that I
would never consider mysef more than
>
just another participant. I wouldnt
bully people off the list, threaten
>
others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is appropriate.
> This list exsists because of the people on
it. You can change the
>
forwarding address. You cant kill it,
not as long as we want it to go on.
>
since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it. Period.
>
RJW
richard
(RJW);
what
are trying to do? i dont understand. just when we have almost
overcome
(?) a bout of nastiness and general disruptiveness on the list,
you
have begun to become rather vehement and confrontational. pls - put yr
angst
on hold. many of us are very happy with the management of beat-L and
the way
that Bill Gargan has handled himself.
pls dont think that you speak for the
majority of readers - or if
nothing
else - pls dont think that you speak for me or my concerns, as i
disagree
with your position completely.
i remain
just another beat-L member
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:46:38 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Safe in Heaven Dead
In-Reply-To: <344E25A8.27AE@middlesex.cc.ma.us>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, Brian Foye wrote:
>
Greetings from Lowell, Massachusetts! I've been on the list for a
>
while, but this is my first post.
[snip]
Thank
you for the great Kerouac memorial story. Please post more often.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:06:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022160541.604A@cap1.capaccess.org>
Mime-Version:
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>since
you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it. Period.
>
>RJW
Richard,
I think
I feel as strongly about this list as you do, but you must
understand
that you are wrong. We own our addresses ONLY IF WE OWN THE
DOMAIN.
For example, you are at @CAPACCESS.ORG. It's the domain of a
non-profit
organization. It's possible that you are the incorporator of
that
corp. If you are, you own your address. If you are not, you do not.
(Actually
a lawyer might pop in here and tell us that a non-profit
corporation
might have restrictions on the OWNERSHIP of the domain name.)
The
Beat List is owned by Gargon. When he says he has a right to shut it
down he
really does. Shutting it down would not affect your address or mine
or
anyone's. It's simply that he can do with the list what he wants.
Gratefully,
he seems to be a person that will not be flexing his "shutdown
muscles"
to prove his point.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:08:52 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sarah Sage
<yb806@FREENET.VICTORIA.BC.CA>
Subject: reply problem
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Marie,
my dad tried to explain the problem to me, but he was unsuccessful
in
doing so, therefore I don't understand why the problem exists, but a
solution
is
when
replying to something I've written you have to send it to beat-l and
can't
just press the reply button b/c it will go to me only.
Sarah
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:18:15 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jjdorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Content-type:
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i agree
with derek...
i'm wondering
myself how many readers of these posts and members of this list
have
really taken the time to read Kerouac's words...
you
know what Kerouac would say about this list...about the name calling and
bad
karma...i'm hearing "my" Kerouac now...and he's saying "later for
this...these
people have nothing for me..."
some of
you know who i am...some don't. in all
my years of researching
Kerouac,
i've never read such nonsense. yeah
yeah i know...then sign off,
right?
let's share our love of jack...nothing more.
ok...
now you can all tell me to go to hell.
john j
dorfner
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:18:16 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also
Comments:
cc: rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Richard
Wallner wrote
>
>Who
is Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle? To threaten
>to
change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this
>discussion...this
stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in the
>past.
>
October 22,
1997
Dear
Beat-L folks and Mr. Gargan:
Frankly, this concerns me too. It concerns me that a gang of four
can
blast somebody they don't like, to the point where that person responds
in
anger, and then suddenly the topic is taboo and the person they blasted
can no
longer speak about it.
Think of the consequences of that.
We saw the consequences of that last
May.
Last May, I got off the list, but the
discussion of the Estate
didn't
stop. It just came back from another
perspective, with Mr. Maher
making
posts all summer about the benevolence of Mr. Sampas, and Mr.
Hemenway
promoting his John Sampas-approved Kerouac Week, etc. So the guys
who
drove me off the list got to speak about the estate anyway, once I was gone.
Please, also, Mr. Gargan, when you go
to point the finger at me as
"equally
bad," consider this: I knew about
Mr. Maher's pro-Sampas postings
during
the summer--they were forwarded to me by other people. But I did not
immediately
jump back on the list to denounce him for various crimes he
supposedly
committed. But within two hours of my
making a post about my
Florida
legal victory, a week ago, Mr. Maher jumped in to denounce me in
very
scathing fashion, followed soon afterward by Mr. Chaput, Mr. Gyenis,
and Mr.
Hemenway.
It was not just name-calling, but it
was accusations concerning my
professional
competence and my honesty. These are very
damaging things to a
person
who operates in the academic/literary world as I do. Was I supposed
to just
let it go, and let the 290 people on the Beat List assume that I
indeed
misuse university materials, deal with the Beats and Kerouac only for
profit,
and have as my heart's desire the destruction of the Kerouac
Archive? Those were serious charges against me, not
just as an ordinary
guy,
but as a biographer, archivist, and literary executor. A response was
called
for, and I don't think that response, even if a little hotter than it
should
have been, should be used as a reason for censoring the Beat-List.
You can bet if I get off the List, or
am blocked from it, that these
same 4
guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac
projects,
and how Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,
etc. And since no one will be around to contest
them, it will all be
sweetness
and light. But does the lack of
conflict and heated rhetoric mean
that
truth and justice have been served? I
don't think so.
Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:17:55 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Bill Gargen
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Bill:
Thanks
for your very kind and informative post.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:10:25 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine also
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> You can bet if I get off the List, or
am blocked from it, that these
>same
4 guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac
>projects,
and how Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,
>etc. And since no one will be around to contest
them, it will all be
>sweetness
and light. But does the lack of
conflict and heated rhetoric mean
>that
truth and justice have been served? I
don't think so.
> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
>
And
remember to go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
A free sample of The Kerouac Quarterly
is available for you!!!!
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:51:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jason Newman
<newman@PREMIERWEB.NET>
Subject: Re: patriotism
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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Yes,
yes, yes. I like the Kerouac kind of patriot. He was in love with
America.
I also like that he didn't let Washington's shortcomings deter him
from
his most brilliant style: American Romanticism. Ginsberg had a much
more
protestic way. This is not a fault, but I do think that Ginsberg,
later
in his life, devoted to many poems to the police, government, etc. I
like
the idea of a Free Artist; loyal to the individual cause, not letting
governors
influence your work. I don't know. (smile)
----------
>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: patriotism
>
Date: Sunday, September 21, 1997 6:48 PM
>
>
Happy last day of summer!
> I
can't help but feel that the Beats, particularly Ginsberg and Kerouac,
>
have strong adherence to America. Ginsberg refers to the America, "where
> we
hug and kiss the United States under our bedsheets, the United States
>
who coughs all night and won't let us sleep" (Howl, pt. 3). The love is
>
qualified, but it can hardly be stated more directly. _On the Road_ often
>
seems like a Valentine to America and its people (other than the
>
"slopjaws" of Washington and the police). We also need to remember
>
Kerouac's first meeting with Kesey, where Jack, invited to sit on a
>
flag-covered sofa, folded up the flag in careful boy-scout fashion.
>
Perhaps the essence of the conflict here can best be addressed by George
>
Orwell, in a sadly neglected essay "Notes on Nationalism":
>
"By 'nationalism' I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human
>
beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions
or
>
tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled 'good' or 'bad.'
>
But secondly--and this is much more important--I mean the habit of
>
identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond
>
good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its
>
interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words
>
are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be
>
challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two
>
different and even opposing ideas are involved. By 'patriotism' I mean
>
devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one
>
believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force upon other
>
people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and
>
culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the
desire
>
for power."
> In
these terms, the Beats, particularly Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Corso, are
>
patriotic, but not nationalistic.
>
Does this make sense?
>
Cordially,
>
Michael Skau
>
9/21/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:23:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
Subject: aaauuhgghhh
john,
don't
go to hell.
you
have a good point.
but as
far as the state battle goes- hey, maybe this IS the place for it.
we have
the option of NOT reading any email that pops up in the inbox.
yes,
someone owns the list. no, noone is making anyone read any of their
mail. yes, it seems to have gotten out of hand at
times, that's when we
all
need to act like the adults we pretend to be and use our judgement to
dismiss
certain things some people say as being reactionary.
thats
my 2 cents worth.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:31:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To: <2012d722.344e7b7f@aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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>
>
you know what Kerouac would say about this list...about the name calling and
>
bad karma...i'm hearing "my" Kerouac now...and he's saying "later for
>
this...these people have nothing for me..."
>
Actually,
apparently the one english language word Jack Kerouac despised
more
than any other, was "tact", and he wouldnt have thought much of
"apporpriateness"
either. I met a man last year who knew
Kerouac and
went
out drinking with him in the old days in NYC.
He said Kerouac
*loved*
to argue, that noone could outargue him or convince him to stop
if he
didnt think the argument had run its course.
I
believe that Jack Kerouac would have told Nicosia and the Lowell Gang
to go
at it. To let the fur fly. To hell with decorum and what anyone
else
thinks. Kerouac's whole life stood for
honesty and NOT hiding
behind
societal standards. Jack believed in
pure, unfettered emotion, in
not
holding *anything* back, because if you do, you are lying to yourself
and
everyone else.
My
quarrel with Bill Gargan is not over whether he "owns" the list
really,
because that is semantical and a matter of opinion. But over his
use of
authoritianism, his threats to stifle debate.
Gargan is proving
that he
is not Beat, because the core of the beat ethic is in always
questioning
authority, always questioning decorum.
This
(estate) quarrel is topical as hell for this list, and Jack Kerouac
wouldnt
have wanted anyone taking the gloves off.
He loved a good
fight
more than anything. Thats why he was
such great friends with
Ginsberg
and Burroughs. They loved to
argue. And they didnt back off
from
their opinions. Not ever.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:36:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Safe in Heaven Dead
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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>
Brian Foye wrote:
>
The conversation was about Kerouac, but in the cemetery it was hard
>
not to think of Ginsberg's recent passing. Once, over dinner in
>
Lowell, I spoke with Ginsberg about death. At the time we had a mutual
>
friend in New York who was very close to death, and so we exchanged
>
ideas. "Here is something I learned from Kerouac," said Allen.
"You
>
could live, and that would be good, or you could die, and that would
> be
good too."
Brian,
thanks for sharing this. "You
could live, and that would be good,
or you
could die, and that would be good too" is an incredibly powerful
statement.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:26:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To:
<v0300780eb073e0dad2f2@[156.46.45.137]>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, jo grant wrote:
>
>
The Beat List is owned by Gargon. When he says he has a right to shut it
>
down he really does. Shutting it down would not affect your address or mine
> or
anyone's. It's simply that he can do with the list what he wants.
>
>
Gratefully, he seems to be a person that will not be flexing his "shutdown
>
muscles" to prove his point.
>
By your
logic Jo, this list is in fact owned by city University of New
YOrk,
since the domain is CUNY.EDU
It
doesnt matter anyway, the issue is control and Mr. Gargan canno
control
this list in the manner he wishes. If
he chooses to block
Nicosia's
posts or the L:owell gang's posts on censorship grounds, they
can
easily forward their posts to me or a dozen other people on this list
who
would post for them. Or they can
re-subscribe with other email
addresses.
Gargan
can make this a"moderated" list, but that would just cause hi a
lot of
grief, because every time he blocked a post, he'd catch hell and
someone
else would try to post it. He'd end up
spending all his time
polkccing
the list and he'd be miserable.
He
could shut down the list, but some one of us would restart it. It is
a
worthwhile list and doesnt deserve to be killed by a powerhungry
would-be
moderator.
All I'm
saying is that Mr. Gargan should drop it and let these posts
continue..dont
try to moderate or control what cant be moderated or
controlled
reasonably. Just sit back and watch the
debate, and if you
cant
stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete.
RJW
(and I
do appreciate the list and the work you have put into it, make no
mistake..I
dont mean this to be personal Mr. Gargan)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:14:47 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat-l (fwd)
Content-Type:
text/plain
Not that I think that Gragan is right in
making these ultimatums,
but
certainly any message sent not on the group was NOT meant for the
group
to see. Posting his message, NO MATTER
WHAT THE CONTENT, was
simply
not ethical in my eyes.
Please people, let it drop unless you
don't care about the
decimation
of BEAT-L.
A VERY
worried,
Keith
>This
is the email I got from Mr. Gargan off the list this morning.
>
>On
Tue, 21 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>>
>>
Mr. Wallner, if you would like to start your own list, please feel
free.
>>
In terms of Beat-l, I will decide what topics are or are not
>>
appropriate for discussion and what guidelines will be used to govern
>>
such discussion.
>
>>
the discussion of Kerouac's estate are unacceptable on the Beat-l
list.
>>
If they continue, I will change this list to a moderated list, where
I
>>
will review all posts before letting them go out to the list or I
will
>>
shut the list down completely. Have a
good evening.
>>
>
>
>Who
is Mr. Gargan to say we cant discuss the Estate battle? To
threaten
>to
change this to a moderated conf just so he can block this
>discussion...this
stinks, no matter how good ajob GArgan has done in
the
>past.
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:43:10 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> Mr
wallner:
>
you do not own this list. bill gargan owns this list. i am beyond
>
irritated by your whining.
> go
start your own damned list
> i
like this list
> i
like bill gargan
> i
like my friends on this list
> i
think bill does a great job. he owns this list. this is NOT a
>
newsgroup or bulletin board.
> if
you can't stop your whining then leave.
>
and if you have been on this list for some time, you would know that i
>
have never said this to anyone before.
>
but i am fed up.
> go
away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe
>
does not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we make
>
our own karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.
>
(sorry bill but i am rip shit by now)
>
marie countryman
Marie,
this is an absolute masterpiece! I
heartily agree!
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:26:34 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Content-Type:
text/plain
Woah
Nellie,
If you want this dispute to end why are
you perpetuating it through
posting
this affront? Do you really think two
wrongs make a right?
Come
on, all it comes down to is who is going to be the better person.
getting
pretty damn disgusted at BOTH sides,
Keith
>>
Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone
on
>>
this list. Go ahead and shut it
down. You cant stop the members of
this
>>
list from collectivley communicating with each other.
>>
So shut it down. I have archives of
this list, I can put together a
list
>>
of all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can
kill
>>
it. The only difference is that I
would never consider mysef more
than
>>
just another participant. I wouldnt
bully people off the list,
threaten
>>
others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is
appropriate.
>> This list exsists because of the people on
it. You can change the
>>
forwarding address. You cant kill it,
not as long as we want it to
go on.
>>
since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it. Period.
>>
RJW
>richard
(RJW);
>what
are trying to do? i dont understand. just when we have almost
>overcome
(?) a bout of nastiness and general disruptiveness on the
list,
>you
have begun to become rather vehement and confrontational. pls - put
yr
>angst
on hold. many of us are very happy with the management of beat-L
and
>the
way that Bill Gargan has handled himself.
> pls dont think that you speak for the
majority of readers - or
if
>nothing
else - pls dont think that you speak for me or my concerns, as
i
>disagree
with your position completely.
> i remain
> just another beat-L member
> derek
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Keith mrsparty@hotmail.com / I think of Dean Moriarty.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:43:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: What about the $%^&ing literature?!
In-Reply-To: <344E1F0E.250D@together.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
My God,
people... if you really need arguing and strife and idiocy like
this,
watch Melrose Place. Let's get back to what we're all on this damn
list
for: THE BEATS!!!!!
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:53:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: 60's Counterculture
In-Reply-To: <3e676882.344e391f@aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jennifer,
You
might want to look particularly at Roszak's _The Making of a Counter
Culture_,
an excellent book of analysis that seems perfect for your
assignment.
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
10/22/97
On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, Sundstrom0 wrote:
>
For my class, Political Theory and 60's Counterculture, I have to do a paper
> on
an aspect of the sixties. I want to do
something on the Beat Generation,
>
however, it has to be more than a literary paper.
>
Does anyone know of any books that talk about the effect the Beat's had on
>
60's Counterculture??
>
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
>
Thanks...
>
>
jennifer
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:01:09 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine
also
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:18:16 -0700
from
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Gerry,
I have no desire to throw you or anyone else off the list. It
troubles
me that a discussion of the estate generally leads to what I
consider
to be mudslinging. However, if you wish
to continue this
battle
you have to realize that I can't be a policeman. I can't take
the
responsibility of protecting you from libel, slander, or
mean-spiritedness. If you're willing to accept this, go ahead
and
discuss
the estate battle to your heart's content.
I'll simply press
the
delete key and urge others on the list to do the same. Fair enough?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:05:14 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Bill Gargan
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I would
like to say that I think Bill is doing an outstanding job as owner
of this
list. He takes a lot of shit from both sides. I don't think this
list
would have ever been censored except that someone threatened to sue
the
list (a first). When that happened Bill
realized things were getting
out of
hand. The reason that happened was that the person complained
because
personal correspondence had been posted to the list for all to see
(not
good!). That's when Bill took action which was to ban certain people
from
posting to the list. He stopped me from posting anything to the list
back
then, not because I posted private correspondence which started this
censorship
deal in the first place but because I swore and used derogatory
terminology
(I was a bad boy). This was only inflaming that person and the
situation.
I couldn't post on any subject. I did not cry and whine to the
folks
on the beat-l. I just accepted it with disapproval (To Bill) and
waited
in the corner for a week with my dunce cap on. Paul Maher was also
stopped
from posting as I was even though he was not the one who posted
personal
correspondence either. After about a
week I was posting again as
was
Paul. So folks Gerry is not being singled out if anything Bill has gone
out of
his way to let him keep talking about his endeavors. I realized he
had no
choice. I think one reason we all are so emotional about this is
that we
love Jack and when you love someone all your emotions run high.
Personally
I don't believe in censorship as my past FUCK CENSORSHIP post
will
attest. But if that lawsuit had been actually started we would all be
typing
to a blank screen now and none of this would really matter. There
would
be no list! So Bill really had no choice. Give him a break. He's
really
a cool dude. And yes he is beat! Three cheers for Bill.
I haven't posted about this estate thing
for almost a week at Bill's
and
others request and I don't want to start another flame war with this
post
(please) but I absolutely had to clear this up about Bill Gargan. Phil
Chaput
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:09:41 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Content-Type:
text/plain
go to
heaven
>
>ok...
now you can all tell me to go to hell.
>
>john
j dorfner
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Keith mrsparty@hotmail.com / I think of Dean Moriarty.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:13:33 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Richard,
quite frankly, i'm finding your diatribe quite tiresome. put a sock
in it.
this
list can only remain so long as Bill allows it to be run on CUNY's
server. i believe Bill teaches at the University and
is therefore it's
representative. he has every right in the world to delete
it. none of us
would
have found each other without it and should it go away, random people
from
around the world would never find us nor we them.
there
is nothing to prevent anyone here from carrying on private dialog
through
backchannelling. that is the
appropriate place for many, many posts -
particularly
those of a personal nature. people can
have at each other all
they
want, backchannel. there is a small
group of us as a sideline to this
list
doing a group read of "Ulysses".
we have set up our own distribution
list as
our posts have nothing to do with Beat-l.
i don't
want to have to select a list of 290 people and have that huge amount
of
space taken up just by list names on my hard drive in my address book and
each
and every time i post or receive a post.
nor have i the time for
something
like that. and that isn't even the
point. when you go to work or
shopping
or the movies or get together with friends, do you expose those
around
you to your personal feuds? do you want
others to do that to you?
i think
the matters of the estate are of great concern to this group.
however,
i don't believe personal vendettas have anything to do with it. and
i don't
want to find myself dragged emotionally into those corners. i care
deeply
about what happens to JK's estate and want to know the reality of the
situation,
not who thinks what of whom - which is completely irrelevant to the
estate.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Richard Wallner
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 5:26 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, jo grant wrote:
>
>
The Beat List is owned by Gargon. When he says he has a right to shut it
>
down he really does. Shutting it down would not affect your address or mine
> or
anyone's. It's simply that he can do with the list what he wants.
>
>
Gratefully, he seems to be a person that will not be flexing his "shutdown
>
muscles" to prove his point.
>
By your
logic Jo, this list is in fact owned by city University of New
YOrk,
since the domain is CUNY.EDU
It
doesnt matter anyway, the issue is control and Mr. Gargan canno
control
this list in the manner he wishes. If
he chooses to block
Nicosia's
posts or the L:owell gang's posts on censorship grounds, they
can
easily forward their posts to me or a dozen other people on this list
who
would post for them. Or they can
re-subscribe with other email
addresses.
Gargan
can make this a"moderated" list, but that would just cause hi a
lot of
grief, because every time he blocked a post, he'd catch hell and
someone
else would try to post it. He'd end up
spending all his time
polkccing
the list and he'd be miserable.
He
could shut down the list, but some one of us would restart it. It is
a
worthwhile list and doesnt deserve to be killed by a powerhungry
would-be
moderator.
All I'm
saying is that Mr. Gargan should drop it and let these posts
continue..dont
try to moderate or control what cant be moderated or
controlled
reasonably. Just sit back and watch the
debate, and if you
cant
stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete.
RJW
(and I
do appreciate the list and the work you have put into it, make no
mistake..I
dont mean this to be personal Mr. Gargan)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:33:35 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine
also
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> You can bet if I get off the List, or
am blocked from it, that
these
same 4 guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac
>projects...
*****As
it is my right to do so...The Kerouac Quarterly is not condoned,
supported,
financed, "approved," by the Estate of Jack Kerouac, they do
happen
to enjoy its contents. Despite your misgivings about this Mr.Nicosia,
it is
most prudent to pass a project by the Estate as a gesture of common
courtesy
since the subject of the said project is being put on display. Now
this
may be your practice but then again...this is you we are talking about.
*****Now,
I may have to confess an error...did I say Columbia U. had letters
stolen?
No. The letters were used from Newberry College in upstate New York
and are
clearly stamped "For scholarly use only - Not for Sale" or something
very
close to that effect. It certainly didn't say to sell them as part of
an
"archive". They were meant to be used and returned...that is common
practice
with research materials. I saw the stamped letters at John Sampas'
house.
Yes I did. I needed similar items for my own book. He has every
letter
from the Memory Babe collection that was penned by and to Jack
Kerouac
and also from every major library in the country that houses a
Kerouac
archive.
*****Let
me remind you of something...the "poisoned hand" comment is direct
from
John Sampas. interpret as such: immature, imprudent,
inflammatory...whatever,
but don't orate your ragtime without sticking with
the
facts. A comment from one person does not dictate the mindset of another.
and how
Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,
*****maybe
he will maybe he won't but ther is nothing to say he never will
like
you claim.
And since no one will be around to contest
them, it will all>sweetness and
light.
***Those
were the days my friend...
But does the lack of conflict and heated
rhetoric mean
>that
truth and justice have been served? I
don't think so.
No it
just means that Gerry Nicosia hasn't been in a courtroom for a while.
> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
And even more respectfully, Paul Maher
Junior
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:16:31 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan
Phil -
i noted your self-control and appreciate it.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Phil Chaput
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 6:05 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Bill Gargan
I would
like to say that I think Bill is doing an outstanding job as owner
of this
list. He takes a lot of shit from both sides. I don't think this
list
would have ever been censored except that someone threatened to sue
the
list (a first). When that happened Bill
realized things were getting
out of
hand. The reason that happened was that the person complained
because
personal correspondence had been posted to the list for all to see
(not
good!). That's when Bill took action which was to ban certain people
from
posting to the list. He stopped me from posting anything to the list
back
then, not because I posted private correspondence which started this
censorship
deal in the first place but because I swore and used derogatory
terminology
(I was a bad boy). This was only inflaming that person and the
situation.
I couldn't post on any subject. I did not cry and whine to the
folks
on the beat-l. I just accepted it with disapproval (To Bill) and
waited
in the corner for a week with my dunce cap on. Paul Maher was also
stopped
from posting as I was even though he was not the one who posted
personal
correspondence either. After about a
week I was posting again as
was
Paul. So folks Gerry is not being singled out if anything Bill has gone
out of
his way to let him keep talking about his endeavors. I realized he
had no
choice. I think one reason we all are so emotional about this is
that we
love Jack and when you love someone all your emotions run high.
Personally
I don't believe in censorship as my past FUCK CENSORSHIP post
will
attest. But if that lawsuit had been actually started we would all be
typing
to a blank screen now and none of this would really matter. There
would
be no list! So Bill really had no choice. Give him a break. He's
really
a cool dude. And yes he is beat! Three cheers for Bill.
I haven't posted about this estate thing
for almost a week at Bill's
and
others request and I don't want to start another flame war with this
post
(please) but I absolutely had to clear this up about Bill Gargan. Phil
Chaput
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:18:21 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine
also
Bill -
you're one hell of a guy! sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Bill Gargan
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 6:01 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine
also
Gerry,
I have no desire to throw you or anyone else off the list. It
troubles
me that a discussion of the estate generally leads to what I
consider
to be mudslinging. However, if you wish
to continue this
battle
you have to realize that I can't be a policeman. I can't take
the responsibility
of protecting you from libel, slander, or
mean-spiritedness. If you're willing to accept this, go ahead
and
discuss
the estate battle to your heart's content.
I'll simply press
the
delete key and urge others on the list to do the same. Fair enough?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:20:36 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:13:33 UT from
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Sherri
is right. The backchannel is a good way
for a several members to
continue
a thread that is of special interest to them.
People
interested
in the Estate thread might be able to continue the discussion
with
less rancor. The rhetoric tends to heat
up when one is playing to
a large
audience.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:43:22 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What about the $%^&ing
literature?!
Content-Type:
text/plain
AMEN
>My
God, people... if you really need arguing and strife and idiocy like
>this,
watch Melrose Place. Let's get back to what we're all on this
damn
>list
for: THE BEATS!!!!!
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Keith mrsparty@hotmail.com / I think of Dean Moriarty.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:45:18 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Wallner's concerns, and mine
also
Content-Type:
text/plain
This is
a good start. The argument has run
itself out. Don't beat it
into
the ground. PLEASE
keith
>Gerry,
I have no desire to throw you or anyone else off the list. It
>troubles
me that a discussion of the estate generally leads to what I
>consider
to be mudslinging. However, if you wish
to continue this
>battle
you have to realize that I can't be a policeman. I can't take
>the
responsibility of protecting you from libel, slander, or
>mean-spiritedness. If you're willing to accept this, go ahead
and
>discuss
the estate battle to your heart's content.
I'll simply press
>the
delete key and urge others on the list to do the same. Fair
enough?
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Keith mrsparty@hotmail.com / I think of Dean Moriarty.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:46:49 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: What is going on in the world of mail
lists
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Celtic
list: The Celtics finally won a
game. Big trade of someone who
was
just acquired. I predicted a trade last
Sunday or Monday. I look
good
there.
Hendrix
list: Discussion similiar to
estate. There are many on the
list
who dislike Hendrix's step-sister and what she is doing to market
Jimi. Coffee tables, golf ball, All Along the
Watchtower sold to
Baseball
ads, etc. The other subject is the
"new" Hendrix album, South
Saturn
Delta.
Dylan
list: Discussion of new album (If you
like Bob Dylan's Blues, you
NEED
this album now, it is great!) and whether or not Dylan has
"repudiated
Christianity. (This discussion is worse
than the estate
battle.
Byrds
newsgroup: Discussion of a 12 string
Rickenbaker that a poster
owns. He is obsessed with whether or not Roger
McGuinn has "lied" about
a certain
12 String that is hanging in the RnR Hall of Fame. He claims
he owns
it. Also, discussion of whether the
Guess Who stole a Byrds
song
for Undun.
Track
and field: The Chinese women, who
failed to place at the World
Championships,
are breaking all kinds of world records at a national
meet. They have 3 or 4 people at a time running
better than 20 seconds
than
their best. Is it real? Short track? What? And should cross
country
results be posted on the track and field list?
Johnny
Winter list. New pictures of Johnny and
his guitars. How is
Johnny's
health? Where is he touring?
Jerry
Jeff Walker list. Well, someone on the
list was insulted by JJW
after a
show the other night and she dissed Jacky Jack the next day.
She is
being blown away. Next show,
Rockerfellers is closing and
reservations
are being made for the Birthday Bash in March.
Let's
see, there is one other list I am on, but I can't seem to remember
a whole
lot that is relevant there. If you are
on that list, maybe you
might
want to see if any of these lists have an appeal to you. What was
that
list, uhhh, oh yeah. It is the beat lit
list.
I sure
do miss Charles Plymell. What about you
guys?
That is
all.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:56:14 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: How about this topic, discuss it amongst
yourselves.
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1.0
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I believe
we should open a new thread. It is on
the internet/www
phenomenon. It should be a comparison about how very
intelligent people
can
lose all sense of perspective when one of two things happens, they
get cut
off in traffic (or someone drives into a parking place they have
been
waiting on) or when they get mad or emotional about a thread on a
mail
list. I believe these ideas are
comparable and that they can lead
us
directly to the collective unconscious mind and how it affects mail
list
behavior and traffic. For instance, we
could delve into how do you
"feel"
someone staring at you at a trafffic light, and how do you know
when
someone has "insulted" you in a fashion that will lead to a duel by
making
a post to the mail list.
I think
that we could even discuss the quality of the midi file of "Take
Five"
on Keith's site. Is it real jass, or is
it Sear's jazz? What
would
Jack think about it?
Well
the list of topics is endless and I really did suggest a collection
or
works, Big Sky Mind for discussion. Is
anyone interested? I suggest
we
start with Harold Norse's poems as they are good and there are only
about
three.
Just a
thought.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:29:58 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: people of autumn (apocalypsis)
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997102019511559@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version:
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beatus, qui legit,
bill works well
et audit verba
prophetie huius:
but the ''word'' owner perhaps
disturbs
et servat ea,
the legend of duluoz
in ea scripta sunt:
compilation copyright (c)
the estate of stella kerouac,
john sampas,
literary representative; and
jan kerouac 1995
tempus enim prope est.
peo
ple
of
aut
umn Apocalypsis best
before the date
indicated on the can end DIDN'T
YOU EVER read THIS BEFORE?
who
do you
take
me for?
---
Rinaldo
23th
oct 1097
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:44:19 -0500
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: my apologies, bob
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>
>
yes cathie- the thought of using the list to discuss beat issues has
>
crossed my mind once or twice. i'm
surpised it's not called beat-l or
>
something crazy like that.
> no
need to take offense cathie,or anyone else i may have offended. just
>
trying to make light of a situation that some of us aren't involved in.
>
(not downplaying the importance- this issue means a helluva lot to many
>
people- anyone concerned with kerouac, in fact)
>
and thats all i gotta say bout that.
Bob,
I know
the main reason for this lists existence is the discussion of
beat
literature, but i just thought i would throw my two cents in and
ask
people to introduce themselves first, just a few lines to give me a
clue
about their characters. Kind of like
when you enter a room full of
people
you don't know, you say who you are and possibly things like what
you do
for a living, you know, the standard introduction fare. Instead
i find
myself in the midst of people who love to argue, and without
knowing
why they want to argue, i can't argue with them. (Did that make
any
sense???) I may have misconstrued your comment to marie about the
personal
issues, but i feel better now having read tonight's digest and
seeing
a few people actually introducing themselves.
NOW i feel i can
talk,
because i've met some people. So lets
talk, bob.
Bob,
i'd like to find a copy of pull my daisy.
Can you help????
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:24:22 +0900
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Timothy Hoffman
<timothy@GOL.COM>
Subject: Re: beat
In-Reply-To:
<971018160555_1767934263@emout04.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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brian
writes (last saturday--I haven't had a chance to get at the computer,
but
wanted to respond)
>hi......
>
>i'm
an eighteen year-old college student just introduced to the world of jack
>kerouac
and the beat genre........
>
>it's
been truly interesting to listen to these feuds about jack's estate and
>all,
each side of the "debate", such and such.......but.......
>
>since
people like me, and i am sure there are more like me, are not too in
>tune
with the whole beat atmosphere; perhaps as a couple of side e-mails
>people
could take off of these bloodbaths against each other and get back to
>the
heart of the literature...
>
>i,
for one, would be interested in knowing everybody's favorite beat books,
>songs,
quotations, etc........the lit. itself, the authors
>themselves.........it's
obvious that a good deal of people attached to this
>mailing
list are more knowledgeable than i am, so it'd be nice to hear
>feedback
from all of you......
"Ahem...."
(taps two times on the microphone--a short screech of feedback
fans
open and fades out) "Is this thing on?"
Favorite
Beat
Book(s): Doctor Sax by Jack Kerouac
Beat
Song The Ghosts of Saturday Night
by Tom Waits
I Travelled Mostly on the Road
by Herbert Hunke and Chuck
Prophet
on the 10% File Under Burroughs CD, anything from Kicks Joy Darkness
Beat
Quote "Charlie Parker looked
like Buddha."
>
>some
questions i would like to ask Each of you:
>what
draws you to this genre?
>what
is so important about it? in the role of america or the world?
>where
is it headed, if anywhere?
>how
have these authors and poets impacted your lives?
Feel
drawn to this genre for a number of reasons one of them being the
quality/life/guts/vision/tenderness/youthfullness/horror
and truth of the
writing
The
genre itself is not so important--I mean, what is so important about
the
picture frame holding "Guernica" in its four corners? It is the ideas
contained
within, the sketches, the moments, what they captured that you
can
relate to, you can almost taste the dust as another car blows by old
limping
Jack, can't get a ride, in Big Sur, shared images, ...
Where
is it headed? In about fifty different directions. I quess some will
become
aquainted and contribute to its evolution through the written works.
Others
might catch the bug from a movie or a CD collection a web page Gap
ad
Johnny Depp reading Romibus or Beat-L or maybe even Mr. Feltsleeves
assigning
The Railroad Earth for a weekend reading assignment. Where is IT
headed?
Where are YOU headed? Any writing aspirations?
Has
this writing CHANGED MY LIFE? Of course. What I had for lunch today
changed
my life. The Indians winning Game Four of the World Series to even
up the
series two apiece changed my life (an unapolgetic plug for the
Tribe--I'm
from Northeast Ohio and've been waiting all my life, dear God).
By the
way, were you aware of the baseball game Jack Kerouac had invented
as a
child and had played all his life, very complicated system using
basball
card stats and whatnot to play though a whole season of games.
Reminds
me of similar creations and made-up sports concocted with older
brothers
in long-ago golden afternoon freedoms. A-ha! This Beat literature
has
HELPED ME REMEMBER the beauty and fun and wonder and adventure of
childhood.
For God's sake, read Doctor Sax.
>
>etc.....etc.......the
trivial things that are the most important
>sometimes........otherwise,
the legal mumbo jumbo will get old unless
>balanced
with another topic....
Brian,
yes, we need balance. Personally, I agree that the estate discussion
belongs
on this list (where else?--untill there's a Jack Kerouac Estate
Discussion-L).
I'm willing to choose what I want to read and respond to. I
thank
you for your timely questions and welcome you (unofficially, of
course)
to the genre.
:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::
Timothy
Hoffman
Komaki
English Teaching Center (KETC)
Komaki
Shiminkaikan, KETC
2-107
Komaki
Komaki,
Aichi 485
work
(0568) 76-0905
fax
(0568) 77-8207
home
(0568)72-3549
timothy@gol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:18:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: A review of today's digest
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i'm
going to waste a post before going to bed.
i
replied to a few posts as i was reading the digest. after my little
poem to
Richard, however, i got caught up in reading today's digest as a
dark
satire of the best of the beat-L. every
frailty came shining
through
in full bloom and some of the best one liners mixed into various
monologues
and diatribes. And by the time I got to
Bentz's two posts
with
news from the other lists (b/c this list sure wasn't worth reading
today
<grin>) and comparing today to getting mad in traffic i was
literally
falling out of my chair.
once
again i'll say to bad we take ourselves so seriously.
and
i'll add that bill g. has the patience of job cubed.
p.s. i had a flashback to when bill sent me a
kindly letter about some
of my
manic thoughts that were a bit adrift from the core of the list
and i
took it to big table and ran it through the cut-up machine and
posted
it! I was just joking of course - but a
decent thread did occur
about
cut-ups as a result. I don't know if
anyone realized it was a
childish
prank not the initiation of a thread.
don't think i ever
apologized
for that one bill. you certainly have
the patience of job.
and i
miss charley p. too -- but after reading today's digest the
question
would be how much he misses us????
suddenly
sombre,
david
rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:14:04 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Mime-Version:
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Richard
Wallner wrote:
>My
quarrel with Bill Gargan is not over whether he "owns" the list
>really,
because that is semantical and a matter of opinion. But over his
>use
of authoritianism, his threats to stifle debate. Gargan is proving
>that
he is not Beat, because the core of the beat ethic is in always
>questioning
authority, always questioning decorum.
>
>This
(estate) quarrel is topical as hell for this list, and Jack Kerouac
>wouldnt
have wanted anyone taking the gloves off.
He loved a good
>fight
more than anything. Thats why he was such
great friends with
>Ginsberg
and Burroughs. They loved to
argue. And they didnt back off
>from
their opinions. Not ever.
>
This is not to attack Bill Gargan or
anyone else, but I do want to
say
from all the hundreds of people I've interviewed who knew Kerouac,
Wallner
is right. Jack did love to argue, what
Tom Livornese (his jazz
pianist
friend) called "the contest of egos"--in fact Livornese told me Jack
would
often promote these kind of contests between his friends, to watch
them go
at it. Maybe a bit of the voyeur in
him, but also a desire to test
people,
to see what they were really made of.
We know from his letters that
he was
often going at it with Ginsberg, for sure.
As for Bill Gargan, I accept your post
tonight. As I see it, the
Sampas
contingent has put you in an untenable position. They are determined
to jump
on me the minute I speak about the estate, and you can't keep
putting
dunce caps on them, blocking and unblocking them. It would be nice
to see them
start a SAMPAS-L of their own, but I'm sure they won't do that,
for the
nonce. So I'll just be content to post
news when there is news, and
to
answer real questions. I'm not going to
bother commenting on all their
continuing
claims of my supposed professional misconduct.
My record of
contributing
to Beat scholarship fills a resume four single-spaced pages
long--Mr.
Maher can print it in his magazine, if he likes--and when one of
them
can match it, or when one of them is singled out by the Washington Post
for
exceptional scholarship, the way I was singled out a month ago, then
I'll
begin to take their remarks seriously.
Anyway, peace to everyone, and if we
truly wish to honor Jack, let's
try to
practice kindness. Avalokitesvara, the
Buddhist saint of kindness
and
mercy, was his favorite.
--Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:06:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Dear
Bill Gargan:
I just
wanted to openly thank you for all the work you've put into this list.
I think most of the subscribers know that it
hasn't been easy to do and many
appreciate
your devotion to the list and the subject of Beat Literature. If
you
feel the need to turn off the lights and walk away from what appears to
be an
unappreciative minority, I wouldn't blame you, you don't deserve the
aggravation. You will continue to have my support,
because I realize it is
your
generosity and selfless dedication that has enabled Beat-L to exist.
Yours,
Bill
Morgan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:54:58 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: SAMPAS-L
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
07:10 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> You can bet if I get off the List, or
am blocked from it, that these
>>same
4 guys will be back soon to talk about their Sampas-approved Kerouac
>>projects,
and how Mr. Sampas will soon put the archive into a major library,
>>etc. And since no one will be around to contest
them, it will all be
>>sweetness
and light. But does the lack of
conflict and heated rhetoric mean
>>that
truth and justice have been served? I
don't think so.
>> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
>>
>And
remember to go to:
>
>
>
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
> A free sample of The Kerouac Quarterly
is available for you!!!!
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
>
James Stauffer suggested last nite
that I hightail it to Estate-L.
Well,
I'd like to go him one better. If Mr.
Maher, Mr. Chaput, Mr. Gyenis,
and Mr.
Hemenway keep up their current volume of posts, we should perhaps
suggest
they switch to a SAMPAS-L to lower the daily volume of messages we
all
have to deal with.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:42:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Richard Wallner
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Richard.
a poem
for you.
you are
wrong
you are
dead wrong
are you
just joking?
hope so
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: sarah sage
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
sarah,
welcome!!! i didn't know squat about this subject when
i joined this
list. honest.
all i knew was that a bunch of people having read things
i'd
written on napkins from time to time seemed certain that i knew all
about
these beat folks. so i joined it - on a
lark i guess.
the
main thing i've learned is that for the most part this is a really
bunch
of fun people. there are people on this
list who i've written and
said --
i'm driving through your town and might be tired, can i crash at
your
place -- and never having met me they say sure. And we meet and
then i
meet others and it is an odd connection which seems very much
"Johnson-ish"
which is a concept that I have figured out and like a lot.
i doubt
that we collectively have been great towards you or others new
to the
list recently. there are some buttons
that get pushed that cause
a
mutual spasm in which we all forget that we're for the most part
"Johnson's".
And believe
it or not we sometimes even talk about beat writings! I'm
really
delving into Howl for real, trying to learn it, for the first
time. I think it may take me more than a year.
And it
seems fair to say that there are a number of people how "knew"
"the
beats" and they seem to have survived the experience. but
sometimes
they are pretty humble about these interactions and seem to
prefer
to just be regular folk.
welcome
again,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:23:50 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How about this topic, discuss it
amongst yourselves.
Content-Type:
text/plain
Well,
In defence of my site I must say one
thing. It is a good song.
There
is a real lack of bebop on the net, not to mention other related
materials. If anyone has a better suggestion, I am open
to comments.
The
choice of Take Five was merely made WITHOUT artistic aesthetics in
mind. As you can clearly see when you visit my
site there is a large
picture
that says under contruction. These are
the things that get
ironed
out later.
You can't build Rome in a day... So please HELP ME!!!!! I need to
know
what YOU want there, after all my purpose it to create a site YOU
want to
visit and post on.
My site offers no bitterness, no
quarelling, no accusations, just
original,
creative, and I might add damn good works.
Please visit and
suggest
a better(?) midi file!
Thank
you
Keith
>I
think that we could even discuss the quality of the midi file of
"Take
>Five"
on Keith's site. Is it real jass, or is
it Sear's jazz? What
>would
Jack think about it?
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Keith mrsparty@hotmail.com / I think of Dean Moriarty.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:21:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Adrien Begrand's poem
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
taking
the digest form it would have been easy to miss adrien's poem the
first
time through -- EXCEPT that it was so beautiful, so connected to
his
spirit.
about
ten times since reading it last night i've thought -- david, you
really
ought to send a note about how you liked that poem by adrien.
then
i'd say back - well what would i say but that i loved it.
tonight
reading through the digest i see that some may have thought this
poem
might have been lost in the cock-fights.
in my
digest it was a definite gem that stood out shining through the
rest.
thanks
adrien, i'm certain jack is thanking you too.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. antoine, what hoboing stories????
<grin>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:16:16 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargen
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Dear
Bill,
Please
ignore the babbling of Richard Wallner and Gerry Nicosia. We
love
this list. If it means blocking a few
folks who repeatedly violate
the
hospitality of the list, so be it. It
would be a pity to lose this
vehicle,
which means so much to so many of us, to the pique of Mr
Nicosia
(who joins us only to flog his estate position ) and Mr. Wallner
(who
doesn't seem to understand it). They
have been asked both on the
list
and backchannel to take a break. They
refuse. This is not a
matter
of freespeech but a violation of rudimentary manners.
Appalled
and frustrated,
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Binu Paulose
<paulose@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Subject: What we're supposed to be doing on this
list
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I was
disgusted by all the junk mail that came into my directory, all the
junk
mail, of course, referring to this thing that is occurring on the
list. I don't know what to call it, how about a
mutiny??? All this stuff
about
the estate of Jack Kerouac is fine, but I don't think that is what
we all
should be discussing on THIS mailing list.
IF ANY OF YOU RECALL
THE
PURPOSE OF THIS MAILING LIST, YOU MIGHT BE DISGUSTED BY THE JUNK MAIL
YOU'RE
GETTING AS WELL. I was so sick of it
that I unsubscribed.
I am 19
years old, a sophomore attending SUNY @ Buffalo. I'm not an
English
major, but a Math major (why math? I don't know). But still, I
gained
a huge interest in learning SO much more about the Beat Generation
and
finding out about what others think.
It's difficult when, among
friends,
you're actually the only person who doesn't associate Kerouac
with
GAP advertisements. Over the summer,
living in NYC, I had so many
problems
with my family, that I would get out of the house, take the
F train
to Bryant Park, and read "On the Road". And there I felt so much
better
and so enraptured by this other world of freedom, love, confusion,
and
sadness. I felt so much at home reading
this, that this was where I
wanted
to be. To quote Kerouac (and I hope
this is exact), "This was my
kind of
girl soul," in that I wanted to be in this place forever.
>From
reading "On the Road" (thank you God for bringing Jack into this
world,
or rather thank you Memere), I wanted to find out so much more. I
purchased
"Selected Poems" by Allen Ginsberg w/ artwork by Eric Drooker
and
"Book of Blues" by Kerouac.
Both are awesome. Of course this
isn't
much. I wanted to learn more about the Beats and
understand it further.
So I
subscribed onto this list, and I got this message. I'm sure all of
you
received this message. Anyway, this
pretty much tells us the purpose
of this
list:
Welcome
to BEAT-L, an online discussion forum devoted to the study of
the
lives and works of the writers of the Beat Generation, especially
Jack
Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs. BEAT-L is an
unmoderated
list open to anyone interested in the Beat Generation.
Scholars,
writers, students, laymen -- all are welcome to join the
discussion
and share their ideas. In addition to
providing an outlet
for
discussion of Beat texts, the listserv is intended to facilitate
scholarly
communication and to serve as a bulletin board or calendar
for
poetry readings, announcements of new publications, upcoming
conferences
and other Beat related events.
I hated
that fact that for someone like me that I had to lose my (forgive me
for
lack of a better word) purity of the Beats.
But I learned that I'm
not
going to get away from this list because you people have to talk on
about
this estate thing and flood directories.
Now I want to say right
now,
that I don't hate any of you. If this
e-mail makes it sound like I
do, I'm
sorry. To Gerry Nicosia, Richard
Wallner, Bill Gargan, and to
anyone
else involved in the estate: I have nothing at all against you.
You're
all good people. This estate thing
regarding Jack's letters and
anything
else is a significant thing, I'll DEFINITELY grant you that. But
also, I
think we all should remember where we are right now. We're on
this
e-mail mailing list, for God's sake!
=) And for the person in
charge
of this list (hi Bill!), he has an important job to do. We all
should
respect that. After all, if he hadn't
created this list sooner, I
think,
well, what I can really say? I was on
for about 4-5 days, and then
I
unsubscribed. But I'm back.
I heard
also about an e-mail that Bill sent to one Richard Wallner, in
private. It isn't right, of course, to have a
moderated mailing list.
Where's
the love, liberty, and pursuit of happiness in all of that? I can
also
understand why there's this "mutiny". Again, Gerry's a good guy
(I'll
look into 'Memory Babe') and he shouldn't be off this list. But
again,
we should remember where we are.
Thank
you all for your time.
Binu
Paulose
ICQ #
3292154
e-mail
address: paulose@acsu.buffalo.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:21:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James J Stavola
<JDSept@AOL.COM>
Subject: BEAT WEB SITES
About 8 or 9 days ago someone posted a
great E-mail with numerous
great
beat sites.Of course I manage to dump the letter somewhere in a moment
of late
night madness and can't find it.I was having so much fun with it and
learned
alot and am not too happy with myself for losing it.The person who
originally
posted it or a copy would be greatly appreciated on this BEAT-LIST
or
directly to me.
Thank
You
JDSEPT@AOL.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:26:36 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks
out.
In a
message dated 97-10-22 14:26:42 EDT, you write:
<<
n. And reecently i have been on the
mission to order The Beat Generation trading
cards by Tundra Press (i
think its Tundra) which is a rare item to
find but nevertheless something >>
Jason:
The
Beat Generation trading cards by Jesse Crumb (son of R.) are published by
Kitchen
Sink Press. You can order them from us here at Water Row Books (we
distribute
Kitchen Sink stuff) - we also have great uncut trading card sheet
signed
by artist Jesse Crumb and suitable for framing...contact me for more
details...
Thanks
-
Jeffrey
Weinberg
Water
Row Books
PO Box
438
Sudbury
MA 01776
Tel
508-485-8515
fax
508-229-0885
email
waterrow@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:48:01 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: How about this topic, discuss it
amongst yourselves.
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Why
doesn't someone explain the history of this gigantic
feud
over the estate. The only thing good
about it is that
it has
increased traffic on the list. How
about an overview,
a
discussion of the ancient roots of this rhubarb. I had 139
messages
in 24 hours and most of them were Beat -L but a lot of
us
aren't that interested in the fight. I
haven't been in this
big a
flame war since last summer when the oldest veterans on
alt.showbiz.gossip
got into it over some old antipathies.
Eventually,
the
furor died of the boredom it was producing.
I notice many
of the
participants were so worn out, they no longer post to ASG.
Are
some old vets returning to Beat-L after years of hibernation.
Please,
would love to hear a history.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:05:57 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Book Woman Returns
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm
back, after a couple of months on the road, including a wonderful trip
to City
Lights, where I would still be if my spousal unit had not insisted
I
accompany him back home.
I
bought the 40th Anniversary edition of On The Road and a copy of Some of
the
Dharma. Spent a lot of time just
wandering around in the Beat section
of the
store soaking up the vibes and wishing I had more money (and time)
to
spend. The kind gentleman behind the
counter at City Lights stamped my
books
with the store seal, and I bought a bookbag to carry them home.
Would
have spent more time in North Beach, but it was raining hard. Next
morning
I decided I had to see Big Sur, so we took Highway 1 all the way
from
San Jose to Los Angeles. Stopped for
lunch in Big Sur, and sat
outside
on the porch of the resturant reading from The Sea....I'm still
looking
for Mien Mo Mountain...someday!
I didn't make it to Half Moon Bay (next trip)
but I saw the most awesome
sunset
of my life over Morro Bay...sun setting over the ocean, huge full
moon
rising over the hills to the east, clear skies, Venus and Mars and
lots of
stars.
Strangely, as I stood on the shore at Morro Bay and
looked out over the
Pacific,
my heart kept saying "this is home".
Bodily,
I'm back in Georgia. Spiritually, a big
chuck of me is still
wandering
around between the books of City Lights and rocks of the
California
coast.
It's
been a most wonderful experience.
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:01:47 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Christian Brubaker
<elevatortohell@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
I was
wondering if I could get a list with descriptions of the t-shirts of jack
that
you
have as well as prices and shipping addresses.
Thanks in advance.
christian
brubaker
Gerald
Nicosia wrote:
> Paul Maher wrote: Try making Disney t-shirts
and selling them outside the
gates
>
>of DisneyLand and see how far you get that day.
>
> Speaking of t-shirts, as Jan
Kerouac's literary executor I am
>
empowered to license the production and marketing of Kerouac t-shirts in the
>
state of California and any other state where the right of image devolves to
>
the child (as it does in California).
Reasonable terms available. 90%
of
>
royalties will be paid to the Jan Kerouac Estate, whose revenues are
>
currently being used by John Lash to try to have me thrown out.
> This is not a joke, by the way. I still legally have this right,
>
until such time as Mr. Lash (and Mr. Sampas) succeed in having me removed.
> --contact me thru my private email if
you are interested.
>
GNicosia@earthlink.net
> --best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:59:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Jack Kerouac's death
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997101919082608@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I have
become increasingly fond of the picture of Jack Keroauc on the cover
of
the Spanish edition of Memory Babe from
Circe Ediciones, Avenida
Diagonal,
459, 08036 Barcelona,
SPAIN
(Espana).
I have
that cover on my web at:
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.html
if
anyone wants to download it for their personal web sites or collections.
Also:
Even
with all the uncomfortable moments the controversey over the Keroauc
archives
has caused--continues to cause--it's been a stimulating learning
experience.
I sit here thinking that if Gargon hadn't started this Beat
List
someone else would have.
BUT, maybe not.
Can you
imagine the information we would not have been exposed to if this
list
didn't exist? There are posts that will end up archived in many
collections.
On
another subject for a moment:
The
older I get, the more I'm "blown away" by things...books, poems, art,
family...computers.
I've
had a computer for 16 or 17 years, and each day I'm awed by the
computers
I've had and the computers I've got.
I spend
a couple of hours three mornings a week with 2nd and 3rd graders in
their
computer lab helping them learn how to use the computers and helping
with
their writing projects. I think about the folks on the Beat List
frequently
when I'm working with these children and wonder how many are
volunteering
at a nearby schools. If you are not, believe me when I tell
you
that you will be welcomed with open arms.
It'll
"blow you away!"
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:47:12 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's letters being censored?
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
As far
as I know, it's pretty much common knowledge that the volumes of
Kerouac's
letters edited by Ann Charters have been entirely screened by
Sampas,
and we can realistically expect a (relatively) complete edition
of
Jack's correspondence in maybe 50 years or so.
This is
not surprising. A similar delay occured with James Joyce's
correspondence.
***
JOHN HASBROUCK
***
Graphic Design & Fingerstyle Guitar in Chicago
***
http://www.tezcat.com/~jhasbro
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:35:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee"
<donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is going on in the world of
mail lists
In-Reply-To: <344EAC89.F0F82158@scsn.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> I
sure do miss Charles Plymell. What
about you guys?
I was
just wondering what this meant. Has he
stopped posting? Is he
okay?
Don Lee
Fayetteville,
Ark.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:03:45 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: The unpublished Kerouac
Comments:
To: John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@tezcat.com>
In-Reply-To: <344F0F0E.111D@tezcat.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
How
much unpublished Kerouac material is still out there? I've heard
rumors
over the years that he wrote a novel about Burroughs, among
others,
that may not have been finished or was finished only in draft
form.
Also
various notebooks of poetry and writings that probably gathered dust
in his
backpack over the years and may have gotten lost along the road.
I
wonder if anyone has done a bibliographical estimate of how much
unpublished
Kerouac is out there and if any of this stuff will ever see
the
light of day?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:36:27 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: beat
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Tomothy,
What a great way to start a day.
Cogratulations and thank yous.
What is
the Komaki English Teaching Center?
Looking
forward to your posts
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Thursday, October 23, 1997 7:00 AM
Subject:
Re: beat
>brian
writes (last saturday--I haven't had a chance to get at the computer,
>but
wanted to respond)
>
>>hi......
>>
>>i'm
an eighteen year-old college student just introduced to the world of
jack
>>kerouac
and the beat genre........
>>
>>it's
been truly interesting to listen to these feuds about jack's estate
and
>>all,
each side of the "debate", such and such.......but.......
>>
>>since
people like me, and i am sure there are more like me, are not too in
>>tune
with the whole beat atmosphere; perhaps as a couple of side e-mails
>>people
could take off of these bloodbaths against each other and get back
to
>>the
heart of the literature...
>>
>>i,
for one, would be interested in knowing everybody's favorite beat
books,
>>songs,
quotations, etc........the lit. itself, the authors
>>themselves.........it's
obvious that a good deal of people attached to
this
>>mailing
list are more knowledgeable than i am, so it'd be nice to hear
>>feedback
from all of you......
>
>"Ahem...."
(taps two times on the microphone--a short screech of feedback
>fans
open and fades out) "Is this thing on?"
>
>Favorite
>Beat
Book(s): Doctor Sax by Jack Kerouac
>Beat
Song The Ghosts of Saturday Night
by Tom Waits
> I Travelled Mostly on the Road
by Herbert Hunke and Chuck
>Prophet
on the 10% File Under Burroughs CD, anything from Kicks Joy
Darkness
>Beat
Quote "Charlie Parker looked
like Buddha."
>
>>
>>some
questions i would like to ask Each of you:
>>what
draws you to this genre?
>>what
is so important about it? in the role of america or the world?
>>where
is it headed, if anywhere?
>>how
have these authors and poets impacted your lives?
>
>Feel
drawn to this genre for a number of reasons one of them being the
>quality/life/guts/vision/tenderness/youthfullness/horror
and truth of the
>writing
>
>The
genre itself is not so important--I mean, what is so important about
>the
picture frame holding "Guernica" in its four corners? It is the ideas
>contained
within, the sketches, the moments, what they captured that you
>can
relate to, you can almost taste the dust as another car blows by old
>limping
Jack, can't get a ride, in Big Sur, shared images, ...
>
>Where
is it headed? In about fifty different directions. I quess some will
>become
aquainted and contribute to its evolution through the written works.
>Others
might catch the bug from a movie or a CD collection a web page Gap
>ad
Johnny Depp reading Romibus or Beat-L or maybe even Mr. Feltsleeves
>assigning
The Railroad Earth for a weekend reading assignment. Where is IT
>headed?
Where are YOU headed? Any writing aspirations?
>
>Has
this writing CHANGED MY LIFE? Of course. What I had for lunch today
>changed
my life. The Indians winning Game Four of the World Series to even
>up
the series two apiece changed my life (an unapolgetic plug for the
>Tribe--I'm
from Northeast Ohio and've been waiting all my life, dear God).
>By
the way, were you aware of the baseball game Jack Kerouac had invented
>as
a child and had played all his life, very complicated system using
>basball
card stats and whatnot to play though a whole season of games.
>Reminds
me of similar creations and made-up sports concocted with older
>brothers
in long-ago golden afternoon freedoms. A-ha! This Beat literature
>has
HELPED ME REMEMBER the beauty and fun and wonder and adventure of
>childhood.
For God's sake, read Doctor Sax.
>
>>
>>etc.....etc.......the
trivial things that are the most important
>>sometimes........otherwise,
the legal mumbo jumbo will get old unless
>>balanced
with another topic....
>
>Brian,
yes, we need balance. Personally, I agree that the estate discussion
>belongs
on this list (where else?--untill there's a Jack Kerouac Estate
>Discussion-L).
I'm willing to choose what I want to read and respond to. I
>thank
you for your timely questions and welcome you (unofficially, of
>course)
to the genre.
>
>:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::
>Timothy
Hoffman
>Komaki
English Teaching Center (KETC)
>Komaki
Shiminkaikan, KETC
>2-107
Komaki
>Komaki,
Aichi 485
>work
(0568) 76-0905
>fax
(0568) 77-8207
>home
(0568)72-3549
>timothy@gol.com
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:04:17 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Richard Wallner, go away
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Marie C
wrote to Richard Wallner:
> go
away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe
>
does not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we make
>
our own karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.
Well
said, Marie. The one thing people often
don't understand (or
figure
out too late, after they've made fools of themselves in
public)
is that mailing lists and other internet forums are
social
places. A wide diversity of behavior
should be accepted --
that's
what makes the conversations interesting -- but "behavior"
is what
it is. You can't treat mailing lists
like garbage cans
for all
your pent-up misconcieved mental trash, which is what
unfortunately
some people do, until they get flamed enough
that
they learn to stop.
At this
point we are convening at a social/intellectual event
hosted
by Bill Gargan courtesy of Brooklyn College (CUNY) where
Bill
works. I've met Bill a few times, and
for those of you
who
haven't he's a warm, generous person with no interest
in the
legal/political aspects of the Keroauc estate, and
a
strong love for Kerouac's writings. He
understands that
this
list is a social place, and he does an excellent job
of
being an "invisible host", rarely taking part in controversies
here
because of his responsibilities as host.
In the current
case he
only got involved because he wanted to help keep the
tone of
the list friendly and humane -- that's the only
reason.
Richard
Wallner, if this event existed in physical space somebody
would
have kicked your ass by now for your obnoxious behavior.
Cut it
out, go away. And please do feel free
to start your own
list,
nobody's stopping you.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
|
|
|
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
|
|
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
|
|
|
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
|
|
| Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm
a man |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:24:52 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: What is going on in the world of
mail lists
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Charles
is fine. He is very busy so left the
list some time ago. The
fact
that he is missed has been passed on.
J
Stauiffer
>
>
> I sure do miss Charles Plymell.
What about you guys?
>
> I
was just wondering what this meant. Has
he stopped posting? Is he
>
okay?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:07:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
Subject: hi cathie!
nice to
meet you cathie!
yes-
our little exchange proves your point perfectly. in this cold cold
world
of computers we forget who the people are and look only at words.
so how
did you discover the beats? mine was the typical- someone said
read
OTR, so i did and i fell in love. but over time i'm starting to take
more
interest in the actual people and events, and less in the
literature.
on that
note- i'm reading the letters of WSB. there are a ton of
perrallels
(hate that word) between the letters and the text in OTR. most
of the
letters are written while JK is on the road- and even mentions how
neal
left his wife with Old Bull Lee, (WSB of course), and the feeling
wsb had
about that. (hated it) also writes to allen about jacks stay in
Mex
city, and how Jack bummed him for money and never paid back. this
would
be a helluva paper topic. (damn- should've thought of that before i
got
kicked out of school :)
the
letters also detail Allen's role in getting Junky published, and the
hassles
he had with the editors, and all the changes he made. (it's no
wonder
he's known for his cut and paste method. he probably simply put
the
wrong chapters in the wrong places accidently)
so
definitely recommended reading.
funny
you should ask about pull my daisy.
i have
had absolutely positively no luck either.
been to
all the "big" video stores, and several locals. noone seems to
know
anything about it, and for some reason can't find it to order it.
so if
you ever find anything, or if anyone else knows- please post!
unless
you meant pull my daisy, poem by Jack, neal and allen. it's for
sure in
a book called "allen Ginsberg, collected poems, 1947-1980".
it's a
very good poem. (coming from a not so big fan of poetry)
ok,
bye.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:08:42 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: What we're supposed to be doing on
this list
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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welcome
binu.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:13:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
Subject: johnson quote
we're for the most part
>"Johnson's".
>
off any
subject whatsoever-
cool
WSB quote- "just when you think the world is full of Shits, you meet
a
johnson"
(i
think thats how it goes)
ok, go
back to discussing real stuff!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:13:42 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: mr dylan
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
haven't
taken the newest out of my CD player since i got it.
so good
to hear him so bittersweet, vulnerable
and strong. it all
rocks,
and the love ballads are so full of self knowledge and elegaic
tones,
so lovely. happy thursday everbody.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:26:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
Comments:
To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.3.89.9710230708.A18745-0100000@netcom>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mr.
Asher,
what
have I done that is so bad? All I was
doing was trying to prevent
the
caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia
in this
case) who was just trying to defend himself.
This was not a
personal
attack on Bill Gargan. I am sure Bill
Gargan is a hell of a guy
and he
does a terrific job with this list normally.
But nobody is
perfect,
and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his
ability
to effectively police this list.
Mr.
Asher, you and Marie and Leon and several others are not being
objective,
you are refusing to see that I am only talking about ethics,
not
making personal attacks. I have been
attacked personally when I have
never
singled out you, Mr. Asher, or anyone else and questioned motives.
The
attacks you and Ms. Countryman leveled against me, especially by
putting
them on the list andnot confrnting me privately, lacked common
dignity. All I want is for the list to grow, and the
list cannot grow if
it
remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal
attacks
if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how
valid. I was trying to defend the honor of the
list, by pointing out to
Mr.
Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if
they
are less important or their opinions dont matter.
This list
is much more than what it was when it started.
It is not a
little
social grup of CUNY or Brooklyn college beat readers, it has over
200
subscribers around the country.
It is a
special list and deserves to be cared for properly. Mr. Asher,
you and
your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on
it that
are in your clique.
My
motives were honest and above board.
Yours arent, Mr. Asher. You
have
proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than
accepting
the fact that nobody is perfect. All I
want is for uncensored
and
open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend
themselvs
when attacked.
All you
want is whatever Bill Gargan wants, no matter what that is. You
cant
accept that there is even a 1 in 10,000 chance that he overreacted
because
he's "Bill Gargan"
This is
not about personalities. It is about
the Beat-L list and how
best to
run it. I wish you could see that I
have good intentions.
Richard
W.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:54:34 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: hi cathie!
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
11:07 AM 10/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>nice
to meet you cathie!
>yes-
our little exchange proves your point perfectly. in this cold cold
>world
of computers we forget who the people are and look only at words.
>so
how did you discover the beats? mine was the typical- someone said
>read
OTR, so i did and i fell in love. but over time i'm starting to take
>more
interest in the actual people and events, and less in the
>literature.
>on
that note- i'm reading the letters of WSB. there are a ton of
>perrallels
(hate that word) between the letters and the text in OTR. most
>of
the letters are written while JK is on the road- and even mentions how
>neal
left his wife with Old Bull Lee, (WSB of course), and the feeling
>wsb
had about that. (hated it) also writes to allen about jacks stay in
>Mex
city, and how Jack bummed him for money and never paid back. this
>would
be a helluva paper topic. (damn- should've thought of that before i
>got
kicked out of school :)
>the
letters also detail Allen's role in getting Junky published, and the
>hassles
he had with the editors, and all the changes he made. (it's no
>wonder
he's known for his cut and paste method. he probably simply put
>the
wrong chapters in the wrong places accidently)
>so
definitely recommended reading.
>funny
you should ask about pull my daisy.
>i
have had absolutely positively no luck either.
>been
to all the "big" video stores, and several locals. noone seems to
>know
anything about it, and for some reason can't find it to order it.
>so
if you ever find anything, or if anyone else knows- please post!
>unless
you meant pull my daisy, poem by Jack, neal and allen. it's for
>sure
in a book called "allen Ginsberg, collected poems, 1947-1980".
>it's
a very good poem. (coming from a not so big fan of poetry)
>ok,
bye.
>
>
wsb is
an am station in Atlanta.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:46:46 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: mr dylan
don't
want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you
mean...
Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible
CD. It
will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't
flame
me, anyone).
Back to
the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac
letters
here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long
time.
Recommended
reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's
death,
or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John Clellon
Holmes,
Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's
passing,
and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.
I don't
mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.
Is it
posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too
beautiful
not to be required Beat reading.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:00:02 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
09:16 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear
Bill,
>
>Please
ignore the babbling of Richard Wallner and Gerry Nicosia. We
>love
this list. If it means blocking a few
folks who repeatedly violate
>the
hospitality of the list, so be it. It
would be a pity to lose this
>vehicle,
which means so much to so many of us, to the pique of Mr
>Nicosia
(who joins us only to flog his estate position ) and Mr. Wallner
>(who
doesn't seem to understand it). They
have been asked both on the
>list
and backchannel to take a break. They
refuse. This is not a
>matter
of freespeech but a violation of rudimentary manners.
>
>Appalled
and frustrated,
>
>James
Stauffer
>
Mr.
Stauffer, I am appalled at YOU!!! I
have spent quite a bit of time
answering
your questions on all sorts of things, because I'm dedicated to
sharing
what knowledge I have on any Beat/Kerouac subjects. I recall
talking
to you about Bob Kaufman and other things as well. I have also
answered
DOZENS of other people's questions from this list that had nothing
to do
with the Kerouac Estate--including helping Mark Nofari with jazz
questions
and Jennifer's recent request about Beat influence on the 60's.
Like
Mr. Chaput, you appear to have an appallingly poor memory.
--Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:35:53 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: What is going on in the world of
mail lists
Charley
left the list so he could have time to write.
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Donald G. Jr. Lee
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 1997 6:35 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: What is going on in the world of
mail lists
> I
sure do miss Charles Plymell. What
about you guys?
I was
just wondering what this meant. Has he
stopped posting? Is he
okay?
Don Lee
Fayetteville,
Ark.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:31:07 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac t-shirts
Comments:
cc: caintb01@holmes.ipfw.indiana.edu
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
10:01 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I
was wondering if I could get a list with descriptions of the t-shirts of jack
>
that
>you
have as well as prices and shipping addresses.
Thanks in advance.
>
>christian
brubaker
>
Dear
Christian and others:
There have been so many requests for
Kerouac t-shirts that I better
clarify
what I meant. I have never manufactured
any Kerouac t-shirts,
though
perhaps I ought to! What I meant is if
anybody is in the
t-shirt-making
business in California, I can grant you the license to make
t-shirts
with Kerouac's image or name on them.
Each state has separate
"image"
laws, and in some states, like California, the image rights devolve
to the
child, in this case daughter Jan, whose literary rights I represent.
So I
can license use of Kerouac if any of YOU want to manufacture t-shirts.
If you
are in a different state, you would need to check the law as far as
who
controls the image rights of a famous dead person, like Elvis or James
Dean,
for example.
I do, however, have a few Kerouac
t-shirts left over from Kerouac
events
I've put on. I have several of the
"Kerouac and Kerouac: the Legacy"
t-shirts
which were sold at the benefits for Jan.
These have photos of Jan
and
Jack side by side on the front, on black cloth, lettering in red and
yellow. Back has list in red of all the benefit
participants, including Ken
Kesey,
Hugh Selby Jr., Paul Krassner and Rambling Jack Elliott, and a big
yellow
signature in her own handwriting saying "Thanks to you all! Jan
Kerouac!" Sizes in large and extra large.
And I have a few T-shirts of the
famous ON THE ROAD jacket photo of
Jack
Kerouac, big on the front--in checkered shirt with hair on his
forehead. Printed in blue, black, and tan." Jack
Kerouac is lettered all
around
his face," and the back of the t-shirt is a tie-dyed effect. These
few are
only extra-large.
If anybody's interested in these, I'll sell them for twenty
bucks
each,
plus postage. The legacy ones are true
collector's items, since there
was
only one printing of about 200. I
haven't seen any more of the Kerouac
ON THE
ROAD face ones for years either, but I can't say for sure that those
ones
aren't still being manufactured.
Email me directly if you're
interested, please.
GNicosia@earthlink.net
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:41:40 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: shut up!
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Just
shut up! Shut up! Arrrrrrgh! This is incredibly aggravating. What
started
as contested points, became an arguement, then bickering, then an
all out
bitch slap. The the dust settled (or
paused) for a day or so now
now an
arguement about the arguement. Shut
up! Let it drop! Move on!
You
people are driving me feakin' bananas!
Yah-yah-yah-yah! Silence
yourselves! The only problem anyone has is that it never
stops and gets
nasty. Just don't let it get nasty, and don't
perpetuate it. So, STOP!
DAMMIT! This is getting silly.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:42:58 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Origins of the Feud
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At
10:48 PM 10/22/97 -0400, Mike Rice wrote:
>Why
doesn't someone explain the history of this gigantic
>feud
over the estate. The only thing good
about it is that
>it
has increased traffic on the list. How
about an overview,
>a
discussion of the ancient roots of this rhubarb.
Dear
Mike, Oct 23, 1997
I have written MY VERSION, which is
called "Kerouacgate at NYU," and
it's
posted on Joe Grant's wonderful web site, www.bookzen.com. If you have
any
trouble reaching it, let me or Joe Grant know.
Joe's email is
jgrant@bookzen.com Joe is maybe the world's most knowledgeable
librarian
and he
has lots of great stuff on his site besides Jan Kerouac. He is also
one of
the greatest authorities on the underground press of the 1960's, and
was an
underground publisher himself for many years.
Now perhaps one of the literary folk
in the Sampas camp would care
to
write Mr. Sampas's version of the rhubarb, as you call it. I'm all for
that. Mr. Maher could post it on his website. Let us know when you have it
up,
Paul.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:45:17 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <344EB00B.688E04CB@mindspring.com>
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>
>
>
> Speaking of t-shirts, as
Jan Kerouac's literary executor I am
>
> empowered to license the production and marketing of Kerouac t-shirts in
the
He says
empowered to *license* meaning you can make 'em if you ask. Doubt
he has
a bundle to flog out of his trunk.....
Although,
this is something to think about if we do another Beat-L
t-shirt.....
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:39:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject:
Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971023120712.4848A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
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you
wrote:
(snip)
...
> it
remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal
>
attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how
>
valid.
...
>
Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if
>
they are less important or their opinions dont matter.
...
> It
is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly. Mr. Asher,
>
you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on
> it
that are in your clique.
...
>
have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than
>
accepting the fact that nobody is perfect.
All I want is for uncensored
>
and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend
>
themselvs when attacked.
richard
(pls
note that i have excerpted parts of yr previous letter to beat-L for
brevity's
sake)
i take
exception to several of the things that you have written in this
post
(and YES i consider myslef a freind of ms.marie countryman having
corresponded
with her on & off list for several years, and have a great
amount
of respect for mr.asher, who's beat webpage is phenominal, and
mr.gargan
who's beat-L dedication i highly appreciate)
like
others have said here - i do not consider beat-L a clique nor an
exclusionary
family. everyone is welcome, but we must realize (in my
opinion)
that we are guests of Mr.gargan here & that there are people
(people
with feelings and emotions) behind the posts. Bill has made it
very
clear that so long as posts are civil and nondisruptive that any
discussion
is valid or reasonable. if concversations move from group
interst
into the realm of a select group, it is not unreasonable to move
the
conversation.
think of it as a party at somebody's
house. everyone is gathered
in the
living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into
asides
and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want
to)
listen to the private or personal as well as the group conversations?
i
imagine marie and i getting off on a tangent and walking into the
kitchen
to raid the fridge and continue the conversation, while the party
continues
in other viens. that kitchen excurtion is "off-list", the living
room is
"on-list". a few people in the living room take things too far,
insulting
and generally getting too heated for the confort of the room and
the
host... the host kindly asks if the
participants in that heated
arguement
would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou
their
differences ("off-list").
would you not do the same if it was yr
living room?
that doesnt mean that the host is
being clque-ish or exclusionary
- just
letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the
greatest
number of people.
this all sounds very reasonable to me,
does it not to you?
yrs
derek beaulieu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:08:12 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: The unpublished Kerouac
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At
11:03 AM 10/23/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:
>I wonder
if anyone has done a bibliographical estimate of how much
>unpublished
Kerouac is out there and if any of this stuff will ever see
>the
light of day?
>
Richard,
I probably have the best idea of
anyone OUTSIDE of the Sampas camp,
because
I read over 2,000 Kerouac letters, and in many of them he talks
about
the unpublished books. My estimate is
that there are at least 6 more
COMPLETE
books (THE SEA IS MY BROTHER, THE HIPPOS WERE BOILED IN THEIR
TANKS,
BUDDHA TELLS US, THE NIGHT IS MY WIFE, which is in French, among
them),
and another 10 or so in draft form, like VISIONS OF BILL, VISIONS OF
LUCIEN,
BOOK OF SKETCHES, and MEMORY BABE.
According to Tony Sampas, he had
also
begun a novel about Nicky's Bar in Lowell, in which all the Sampases
were
characters!!!
Then you have several hundred
notebooks, out of which you could
easily
quarry another 20 books. For example:
"Kerouac on Women," "Kerouac's
Days in
North Beach," etc. Just pick a
theme, and quarry material from
these hundreds
of notebooks that fits it.
John Sampas seems to be committed to
publishing the stuff, however
slowly. My chief concern in this regard is the
heavyhanded censorship which
he is
exercising. Until he makes these
manuscripts and notebooks open to
the
public, we'll never know how much is being left out or, God forbid,
altered
to suit Mr. Sampas's tastes. You will
note, with the last two
publications,
Mr. Sampas has even taken the liberty of dedicating the books
in the
way he THINKS Jack should have dedicated them.
That's why it's so important to have
the whole Kerouac archive
available
in one place. We know books get edited,
yes, it is standard
practice
as Maher and a few others have noted.
But that is why you have
library
archives, so that the scholars and readers who care can check back
and see
what the originals said. And then
sometimes books get written
telling
us about all the stuff that got left out, and those can be some damn
interesting
books! There's a great one called THE
UNRECORDED LIFE OF OSCAR
WILDE
(yes, I do have literary interests beyond Jack Kerouac, folks).
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:10:40 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Peter Orlowsky grammar.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971023105920.17556A-100000@cap1.capaccess
.org>
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salve!
amici beat,
in
Peter Orlowsky poem there's a lot of grammar mistakes,
if it's
deliberate i think this way of poetry is fine,
un
abraco e obrigado,
rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:15:52 PDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Web Site Update
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Hello
everyone,
Here is a healthy break from the BEAT-L
list, drop in at my web
page!
As some of you know there weren't any updates for a few days,
well...The
page has added quite a few new features.
So stop by and
check
it out.
Thank you,
Keith
------------------------------------------------------------
Keith mrsparty@hotmail.com / I think of Dean Moriarty.
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:23:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Wichita Vortex
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1.0
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Hey all
-- and especially Antoine:
doing a
little hobo-in' this weekend ... gonna head down to the old
Vortex
in Wichita Kansas.
it is
only 90 minutes away and i've almost never explored it. so this
weekend
I will. (also some old friends will be
at the University)
Any
suggestions on Vortexian Venues that deserve examining let me know.
hobo
over and out,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:46:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Web Site Update
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Keith
Medline wrote:
>
>
Hello everyone,
>
> Here is a healthy break from the BEAT-L
list, drop in at my web
>
page! As some of you know there weren't any updates for a few days,
>
well...The page has added quite a few new features. So stop by and
>
check it out.
> Thank you,
>
Keith
>
well, i
am no health nut, but enoyed the stop. thank you for posting all
the
different poets (including me blush).
Rinaldo,
get something over to this guy, it would be nice to see a few
of you
others too.
is
there a way that when you ask how we found our way there we could
check
beat-l.
I
especially enjoyed the link to the ginzy site.
When i tried to e-mail
that
site i got a nondeliverable post. any information on that site, it
is
great.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:22:01 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Gone in October
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:46:46 -0400
from <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
"Gone
in October" is a wonderful eulogy.
It's also reprinted in Holmes' Collec
ted
Works.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:29:27 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
Comments:
To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971023112645.108748B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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>
the host... the host kindly asks if the
participants in that heated
>
arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou
>
their differences ("off-list").
> would you not do the same if it was
yr living room?
> that doesnt mean that the host is
being clque-ish or exclusionary
> -
just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the
>
greatest number of people.
> this all sounds very reasonable to
me, does it not to you?
Derek,
point
taken, but you see Mr. Gargan wasnt *asking*, he was *telling* them
to take
the argument off the list and was making *threats* to block
certain
people from this list.
In
addition, as you saw in the email he sent me, which I forwarded to the
list,
he claims to have reserved the right to decide which topics are
appropriate
here and which arent.
All I
ask is what should be expected, that things be done democratically
here,
that no actions be taken or topics declared off limits or people
blocked,
unless the *majority* of the subscribers (not just Bill Gargan)
deem it
appropriate.
People
will not contribute regularly unless they feel like they are a
part of
this list, like what they feel counts.
Like each and every
subscriber
to this list means something.
I dont
know Nicosia or Phil Maher or any of the principals involved. If
it had
been *you* or Marie or Leon who was being threatened with censure,
I'd
have defended you to. I was standing up
for principle. If someone
is
attacked publicly (on the list), and many people ahve read the
attacks,
that person has the right to defend himself *on the list* so
everyone
who read the attacks can also read the defense. Is this not
fair
Derek?
And for
that I get attacked because to those who know Bill Gargan,
nothing
anybody else on this list says means anything.
Why can
I be given the benefit of the doubt by you people that I am
expressing
genuine concerns here? That I am in
acting in what I felt and
is in
the best interests of this list, in protecting its openness.
Richard
W.