=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:48:36 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: mr dylan
Diane -
where did you find the old Playboy issue?
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Diane De Rooy
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 1997 9:46 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: mr dylan
don't
want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you
mean...
Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible
CD. It
will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't
flame
me, anyone).
Back to
the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac
letters
here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long
time.
Recommended
reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's
death,
or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John Clellon
Holmes,
Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's
passing,
and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.
I don't
mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.
Is it
posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too
beautiful
not to be required Beat reading.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:04:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac t-shirts
In-Reply-To:
<199710231731.KAA25635@norway.it.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version:
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Gerry,
Save me
one of the shirts with Jack and Jan pics side-by-side and her sig
on the
back.
I'll
get a check off to you in a few days.
I can't
believe Stauffer's "Please ignore the babbling of Richard Wallner
and
Gerry Nicosia."
Haven't
had time to comment YET.
Such
crap.
joe
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:43:03 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Richard Wallner, go away
MIME-Version:
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thank
you, levi.
mc
Levi
Asher wrote:
>
Marie C wrote to Richard Wallner:
>
> go away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe
>
> does not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we make
>
> our own karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.
>
>
Well said, Marie. The one thing people
often don't understand (or
>
figure out too late, after they've made fools of themselves in
>
public) is that mailing lists and other internet forums are
>
social places. A wide diversity of
behavior should be accepted --
>
that's what makes the conversations interesting -- but "behavior"
> is
what it is. You can't treat mailing
lists like garbage cans
>
for all your pent-up misconcieved mental trash, which is what
>
unfortunately some people do, until they get flamed enough
>
that they learn to stop.
>
> At
this point we are convening at a social/intellectual event
>
hosted by Bill Gargan courtesy of Brooklyn College (CUNY) where
>
Bill works. I've met Bill a few times,
and for those of you
>
who haven't he's a warm, generous person with no interest
> in
the legal/political aspects of the Keroauc estate, and
> a
strong love for Kerouac's writings. He
understands that
>
this list is a social place, and he does an excellent job
> of
being an "invisible host", rarely taking part in controversies
>
here because of his responsibilities as host.
In the current
>
case he only got involved because he wanted to help keep the
>
tone of the list friendly and humane -- that's the only
>
reason.
>
>
Richard Wallner, if this event existed in physical space somebody
>
would have kicked your ass by now for your obnoxious behavior.
>
Cut it out, go away. And please do feel
free to start your own
>
list, nobody's stopping you.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------
> |
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
>
| |
>
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
>
| (the beat literature web
site) |
>
| |
>
| "Coffeehouse: Writings
from the Web" |
>
| (a real book, like on
paper) |
>
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
>
| |
>
|
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
>
| |
>
| Mister, I ain't a boy,
no I'm a man |
>
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:00:35 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: mr dylan
MIME-Version:
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yes, i
second the motion to get a hold of this issue (2/73
and i
don't see dylan as tangential. he's a musical beat in many ways, but then
he's
the jester in white face and the man who no one presumes to know....
happy
thursday
mc
Diane
De Rooy wrote:
>
don't want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you
>
mean... Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible
>
CD. It will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't
>
flame me, anyone).
>
>
Back to the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac
>
letters here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long
>
time.
>
>
Recommended reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's
>
death, or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John
Clellon
>
Holmes, Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's
>
passing, and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.
>
> I
don't mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.
>
> Is
it posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too
>
beautiful not to be required Beat reading.
>
>
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:07:44 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
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wonderful
wonderful insp d:
as
always.
mc
Derek
A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
you wrote:
>
(snip)
>
...
>
> it remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal
>
> attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how
>
> valid.
>
...
>
> Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if
>
> they are less important or their opinions dont matter.
>
...
>
> It is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly. Mr. Asher,
>
> you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on
>
> it that are in your clique.
>
...
>
> have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than
>
> accepting the fact that nobody is perfect. All I want is for uncensored
>
> and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend
>
> themselvs when attacked.
>
richard
>
(pls note that i have excerpted parts of yr previous letter to beat-L for
>
brevity's sake)
> i
take exception to several of the things that you have written in this
>
post (and YES i consider myslef a freind of ms.marie countryman having
>
corresponded with her on & off list for several years, and have a great
>
amount of respect for mr.asher, who's beat webpage is phenominal, and
>
mr.gargan who's beat-L dedication i highly appreciate)
>
like others have said here - i do not consider beat-L a clique nor an
>
exclusionary family. everyone is welcome, but we must realize (in my
>
opinion) that we are guests of Mr.gargan here & that there are people
>
(people with feelings and emotions) behind the posts. Bill has made it
>
very clear that so long as posts are civil and nondisruptive that any
>
discussion is valid or reasonable. if concversations move from group
>
interst into the realm of a select group, it is not unreasonable to move
>
the conversation.
> think of it as a party at somebody's
house. everyone is gathered
> in
the living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into
>
asides and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want
>
to) listen to the private or personal as well as the group conversations?
> i
imagine marie and i getting off on a tangent and walking into the
>
kitchen to raid the fridge and continue the conversation, while the party
>
continues in other viens. that kitchen excurtion is "off-list", the
living
>
room is "on-list". a few people in the living room take things too
far,
>
insulting and generally getting too heated for the confort of the room and
>
the host... the host kindly asks if the
participants in that heated
>
arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou
>
their differences ("off-list").
> would you not do the same if it was
yr living room?
> that doesnt mean that the host is
being clque-ish or exclusionary
> -
just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the
>
greatest number of people.
> this all sounds very reasonable to
me, does it not to you?
> yrs
> derek beaulieu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:12:37 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Web Site Update
MIME-Version:
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also
bohemians: any cross listers here besides me who isn't feeling idiotic
today?
can't follow directions never mind give them.
mc
Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
Keith Medline wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>
>
> Here is a healthy break from
the BEAT-L list, drop in at my web
>
> page! As some of you know there weren't any updates for a few days,
>
> well...The page has added quite a few new features. So stop by and
>
> check it out.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
well, i am no health nut, but enoyed the stop. thank you for posting all
>
the different poets (including me blush).
>
Rinaldo, get something over to this guy, it would be nice to see a few
> of
you others too.
>
> is
there a way that when you ask how we found our way there we could
>
check beat-l.
>
> I
especially enjoyed the link to the ginzy site.
When i tried to e-mail
>
that site i got a nondeliverable post. any information on that site, it
> is
great.
>
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:18:28 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Book Woman Returns
MIME-Version:
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welcome
back, judith: i understand completely, i spent two weeks on the sur
on ted
turners getaway (no glory in this, long sordid story, need to be
supervised
in order to return oh well)
any
way, i'm heading to CA for dec-jan and i know what you mean. my other
favorite
place is vesuvius and city lights, yes, right next to each other on
jack
kerouac lane (dead end alleyj-make of this what you will folks) anyway i
have
pictures of the corners there and lots of fond memories. can't wait
mc
Judith
Campbell wrote:
>
I'm back, after a couple of months on the road, including a wonderful trip
> to
City Lights, where I would still be if my spousal unit had not insisted
> I
accompany him back home.
>
> I
bought the 40th Anniversary edition of On The Road and a copy of Some of
> the
Dharma. Spent a lot of time just
wandering around in the Beat section
> of
the store soaking up the vibes and wishing I had more money (and time)
> to
spend. The kind gentleman behind the
counter at City Lights stamped my
>
books with the store seal, and I bought a bookbag to carry them home.
>
>
Would have spent more time in North Beach, but it was raining hard. Next
>
morning I decided I had to see Big Sur, so we took Highway 1 all the way
>
from San Jose to Los Angeles. Stopped
for lunch in Big Sur, and sat
>
outside on the porch of the resturant reading from The Sea....I'm still
>
looking for Mien Mo Mountain...someday!
>
> I didn't make it to Half Moon Bay (next
trip) but I saw the most awesome
>
sunset of my life over Morro Bay...sun setting over the ocean, huge full
>
moon rising over the hills to the east, clear skies, Venus and Mars and
>
lots of stars.
>
>
Strangely, as I stood on the shore at
Morro Bay and looked out over the
>
Pacific, my heart kept saying "this is home".
>
>
Bodily, I'm back in Georgia.
Spiritually, a big chuck of me is still
>
wandering around between the books of City Lights and rocks of the
>
California coast.
>
>
It's been a most wonderful experience.
>
>
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:26:54 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
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please
everyone i beg you don't make me be the one to tell mr walner he needs
to seek
help,
especially
since i was rubberstamped mad 10 months ago.
but
even i have standards
mc
Richard
Wallner wrote:
>
> the host... the host kindly asks if the
participants in that heated
>
> arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou
>
> their differences ("off-list").
>
> would you not do the same
if it was yr living room?
>
> that doesnt mean that the
host is being clque-ish or exclusionary
>
> - just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the
>
> greatest number of people.
>
> this all sounds very
reasonable to me, does it not to you?
>
>
Derek,
>
>
point taken, but you see Mr. Gargan wasnt *asking*, he was *telling* them
> to
take the argument off the list and was making *threats* to block
>
certain people from this list.
>
> In
addition, as you saw in the email he sent me, which I forwarded to the
>
list, he claims to have reserved the right to decide which topics are
>
appropriate here and which arent.
>
>
All I ask is what should be expected, that things be done democratically
>
here, that no actions be taken or topics declared off limits or people
>
blocked, unless the *majority* of the subscribers (not just Bill Gargan)
>
deem it appropriate.
>
>
People will not contribute regularly unless they feel like they are a
>
part of this list, like what they feel counts.
Like each and every
>
subscriber to this list means something.
>
> I
dont know Nicosia or Phil Maher or any of the principals involved. If
> it
had been *you* or Marie or Leon who was being threatened with censure,
>
I'd have defended you to. I was
standing up for principle. If someone
> is
attacked publicly (on the list), and many people ahve read the
>
attacks, that person has the right to defend himself *on the list* so
>
everyone who read the attacks can also read the defense. Is this not
>
fair Derek?
>
>
And for that I get attacked because to those who know Bill Gargan,
>
nothing anybody else on this list says means anything.
>
>
Why can I be given the benefit of the doubt by you people that I am
>
expressing genuine concerns here? That
I am in acting in what I felt and
> is
in the best interests of this list, in protecting its openness.
>
>
Richard W.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:51:26 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
MIME-Version:
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Richard,
Is everyone
who objects to your attacks upon imaginary evil doers, a clique
ganging
up on you? I feel very fortunate to be
a friend of any of the
people
you mention as our clique from what I have seen of them through this
list.
One of the reasons that I value
whatever friendship we have already
developed,
is that I have seen much more maturity from them too be
interested
in acting as cliques. I would back off from anything that looked
to me
like a clique, very quickly.
Yes, I
felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be
answered.
You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as founder
of the
list to promote one side of an dispute against the other. I have
never
seen any such unfair practices from
Bill, and I appreciate his
patience
and tolerance of your attacks that are so obviously based upon lack
of
knowledge of what is a list, and misinterpretation of what Bill is trying
to do.
Bill
has only tried to keep mudslinging from poisoning our list. Not
squelching
any issues. Just because the name of Kerouac is included in a mud
slinging
brawl between several people does not mean that the list should
welcome
the mudslinging. The list is definitely a forum for estate issues,
it is
not a ring for a brawl between people who fight each other.
You say
your attacks are not personal. "Just ethics". I see ethical
accusations,
whether they are about Paul, or whether they are about Bill, or
anyone,
as being very personal indeed. Suggesting that he is not fit to be a
host of
the list is a very personal insult.
Accusing
me of acting from clique loyalties is a very personal accusation,
although
as an expert in washing mud off my face, it really doesn't bother
me
Richard. I just wish you would wake up and see more clearly what you are
looking
at. There are no clique loyalties involved here at all. Just the
issues
and how we see them.
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Thursday, October 23, 1997 9:26 AM
Subject:
Mr. Asher, dont overreact
>Mr.
Asher,
>
>what
have I done that is so bad? All I was
doing was trying to prevent
>the
caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia
>in
this case) who was just trying to defend himself. This was not a
>personal
attack on Bill Gargan. I am sure Bill
Gargan is a hell of a guy
>and
he does a terrific job with this list normally. But nobody is
>perfect,
and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his
>ability
to effectively police this list.
>
>Mr.
Asher, you and Marie and Leon and several others are not being
>objective,
you are refusing to see that I am only talking about ethics,
>not
making personal attacks. I have been
attacked personally when I have
>never
singled out you, Mr. Asher, or anyone else and questioned motives.
>The
attacks you and Ms. Countryman leveled against me, especially by
>putting
them on the list andnot confrnting me privately, lacked common
>dignity. All I want is for the list to grow, and the
list cannot grow if
>it
remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal
>attacks
if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how
>valid. I was trying to defend the honor of the
list, by pointing out to
>Mr.
Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if
>they
are less important or their opinions dont matter.
>
>This
list is much more than what it was when it started. It is not a
>little
social grup of CUNY or Brooklyn college beat readers, it has over
>200
subscribers around the country.
>
>It
is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly. Mr. Asher,
>you
and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on
>it
that are in your clique.
>
>My
motives were honest and above board.
Yours arent, Mr. Asher. You
>have
proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than
>accepting
the fact that nobody is perfect. All I
want is for uncensored
>and
open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend
>themselvs
when attacked.
>
>All
you want is whatever Bill Gargan wants, no matter what that is. You
>cant
accept that there is even a 1 in 10,000 chance that he overreacted
>because
he's "Bill Gargan"
>
>This
is not about personalities. It is about
the Beat-L list and how
>best
to run it. I wish you could see that I
have good intentions.
>
>
>Richard
W.
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Icychick34@AOL.COM
Subject: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
hello,
let me
start off by saying that my name is kristina and i am a 19 year old in
need of
help. i am writing a research paper about William S. Burroughs novel j
unky. i
was wondering if you could help me by finding or offering critical
opinions
of the book for me as soon as possible. anything you could come up
with
would be greatly appreciated. thank you.
sincerely,
kristina
ames e-mail:
ICYCHICK34@SOL.COM
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:50:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
Comments:
To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.A32.3.93.971023112645.108748B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> think of it as a party at somebody's
house. everyone is gathered
> in
the living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into
>
asides and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want
But
this is not somebody's private house.
This list is not run off of
Bill
Gargan's private computer. It is a
List-serv run off of the City
University
of New York facilities, a taxpayer supported public
institution. The taxpayer money of every subscriber on this
list, or
certainly
all of us who live in New York, are paying for the maintenance
and
distribution of this list.
Mr.
Gargan cannot run a private bbs ona public computer. He is morally
and
ethically bound to honor democratic principles, and legallylly bound
by
university regulations. I do not
believe that CUNY administration
would
feel that this list benefits its students, community or supporters
if it
thought Mr. Gargan wanted only to honor his own agenda, and not
respect
the wishes of those who subscribe o this list.
Thisis
a public list. We all own it. Mr. Gargan, take this list down
and put
it up on your personal computer if you want it otherwise.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:54:18 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: mr dylan
MIME-Version:
1.0
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<snip>
. happy
thursday everbody.
<unsnip>
could i
interest you in some cottleston pie?
> mc
>
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:58:43 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: my voice
MIME-Version:
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very
nice indeed.
>
i'd like to share a poem also, in the midst of all this conflict. I'd like to
>
remember the spirit of freedom and "get in a car and go" I'd
appreciate
>
comments, this is my first draft. here it goes....
>
>
Another car poem
>
>
take a drive with me tonight
>
arch your back in the front seat
>
and give me that wicked smile that promises
>
we'll "get lost" on a dirt road somewhere
> Just ride...
>
with the coffe stained atrands of your hair
>
leaking out the window
> as
your laughter crescendoes
> to
the shape of this little town,
> to
the slip drip excitement
>
the expanded view
>
the canopy of palm trees and night road sound
> humming crickets, and
> "four wheels to the groud"
>
i'd like to watch the world circle from the passenger seat,
> as
you sprinkle ahes
>
into the coated black air
> Peppermint on your lips
> "red afternoon in your
eyes"
>
let me inhale you
> in the middle of the night
>
with those fuzzy, soft-shadowed inside the car senses
>
let me smell your pine needle incense
>
watch you with your knees pulled up
> to
your chest
>
wishing for some down-time
> alone time
> happy raindrop sugar sweet time
> I know you come a live at night
time
> i
know how you lower your eyes to the ground
> as if thats where they belong
> belong to the land
> behold the land!
> Grab onto the road!
> Hold tight the night!
>
Take a drive with me
>
take the wheel
>
take your big dreamsad eyes
>
take the harvest moon
>
take scented sounds spirits of foggy forest paths
>
take radio songs and tall rusty haired country boys
>
take your slitted mouth
> that leans side to side
> Take my hand....
>
we'll spin inside the wet mosquito night
>
answering the call of the highway
> Two wind chasers mixing up a little homemade
adventure
> in
this mad-based mad-crazed
> sterile world.
>
>
~~Marlene Giraud
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:02:00 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
Comments:
To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
In-Reply-To:
<01bcdfed$0c1e8060$455de3a5@mbay69.cruzio.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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>
list. One of the reasons that I value
whatever friendship we have already
>
developed, is that I have seen much more maturity from them too be
>
interested in acting as cliques. I would back off from anything that looked
> to
me like a clique, very quickly.
When
people are attacking someone without addressing the merits of his
argument,
but just to attack like a pack, that is a clique. All Im
getting
from people like Ms. Countryman is "amen's" and "way to
go's"..
in
response to other empty criticisms.
That is a clique mentality.
>
>
Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be
>
answered. You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as founder
> of
the list to promote one side of an dispute against the other.
I have
never said Bill supported one position or one side in this
dispute,
just that he specifically threatened to block one person from
responding
in self-defense to personal attacks.
That is a fact. Not my
opinion. He did threaten to block Gerry Nicosia from
posting.
>
Bill has only tried to keep mudslinging from poisoning our list. Not
>
squelching any issues. Just because the name of Kerouac is included in a mud
>
slinging brawl between several people does not mean that the list should
>
welcome the mudslinging. The list is definitely a forum for estate issues,
> it
is not a ring for a brawl between people who fight each other.
>
This is
not a moderated list, if Billwants to moderate it, he should
avoid
the hypocrisy and simply make this a moderated list and review all
posts. He seems to want it both ways.
>
You say your attacks are not personal. "Just ethics". I see ethical
>
accusations, whether they are about Paul, or whether they are about Bill, or
>
anyone, as being very personal indeed. Suggesting that he is not fit to be a
>
host of the list is a very personal insult.
I never
said he is not fit. I said he is doing
a good job. Read my
posts
again Leon. I said he overreacted on
this one issue, and he did.
That
isnt a personal insult. That it is
taken as so is another
indication
of the clique mentality.
I have
told Mr. Gargan that in as much as I have been dragged through
themud,
I will not drop this until he makes a public statement spelling
out his
role, and agreeing to respect the majority wishes of the
subscribers
of this list.
I just
want him to tell his friends that he overreacted so they get off
my
case, and we can go on. He *did*
threaten to block posts and he *did
*threaten*
to dictate discussion. thats not my
imagination. Those oare
facts!
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:00:54 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: The Beat Generation in New York
I just
received (hot off the presses) my copy of Bill Morgan's new book, "The
Beat
Generation in New York: A walking tour of Jack Kerouac's City," (City
Lights)
and I hope I can stop drooling onto my keyboard long enough to tell
you how
incredible it is.
As a
cursory explanation of something you must see to appreciate, let me say
that
Morgan has laid out the Beat City by neighborhoods, from Columbia
University
to Times Square to the Village to the boroughs, developed
anecdotes
about each site and juxtaposed the oral history with beautiful
photos...
some familiar, some not. He's included a "Who's Who" for Beat
tyros,
as well as a bibliography and index for reference.
It's
beautiful, it's smooth, it's supple, it's juicy... it's Beat, baby.
"You
get a sense of eternity looking at Manhattan from a boat arriving--the
buildings
look as if they were manufacturing cosmic jazz." (Allen Ginsberg,
from
the introduction) "I roamed the streets, the bridges, Times Square,
cafeterias,
the waterfront, I looked up all my poet beatnik friends and
roamed
with them, I had love affairs with girls in the Village, I did
everything
with that great mad joy you get when you return to New York City."
(Jack
Kerouac, from the introduction)
In
addition to the usual suspects, Morgan also includes historic references
to
Warhol et. al., Lou Reed et. al., Thomas Wolfe, Tim Leary, CBGBs and Jan
Kerouac.
The book is delicious, to say the least.
I
ordered my copy through City Lights, by going to their website at:
http://www.citylights.com/CLpub.html
and then calling the phone order line
(better
still, call City Lights direct and avoid the voice mail yada yada:
416/362-8193).
It may
not even be available in your bookstore yet, but you can get it right
now by
ordering direct.
I
haven't ever been to New York, but when I go, it will be with this book
clenched
tightly in my little fist. Thanks to all the photographers
(especially
Allen Ginsberg) and to Bill Morgan for this beautiful,
illuminating,
transcendant walking tour.
diane
de rooy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:11:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
In a
message dated 97-10-23 17:01:25 EDT, you write:
<<
> Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be
> answered. You did accuse him of
censorship and using his position as
founder
> of the list to promote one side of an
dispute against the other.
I have never said Bill supported one position
or one side in this
dispute, just that he specifically threatened
to block one person from
responding in self-defense to personal
attacks. That is a fact. Not my
opinion.
He did threaten to block Gerry Nicosia from posting.
>>
Richard,
This is
so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on it,
you
revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."
Here's
your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a person
supposed
to respond to that powerful verb?
"what
have I done that is so bad? All I was
doing was trying to prevent
the
caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia
in this
case) who was just trying to defend himself.
This was not a
personal
attack on Bill Gargan. I am sure Bill
Gargan is a hell of a guy
and he
does a terrific job with this list normally.
But nobody is
perfect,
and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his
ability
to effectively police this list."
Later,
you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using the power
of
these words to make your case against what you define as repression of
free
speech.
When
you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including yourself) a
favor
and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own letters, then respond.
That
way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you said.
And,
hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when you
can't
admit it and move on.
Let it
go, Richard.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:18:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
In-Reply-To:
<971023163559_1735129247@mrin46.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>hello,
>let
me start off by saying that my name is kristina and i am a 19 year old in
>need
of help. i am writing a research paper about William S. Burroughs novel j
>unky.
i was wondering if you could help me by finding or offering critical
>opinions
of the book for me as soon as possible. anything you could come up
>with
would be greatly appreciated. thank you.
>sincerely,
>kristina
ames e-mail:
ICYCHICK34@SOL.COM
Call
Reference at the public, college, or university library. They'll steer
you to
all the reviews of books by WSB. These
reviews will not substitute
for you
reading the book(s) but it's better than nothing.
Reference
will really provide help.
jo
grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers display
books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:20:46 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: City Lights...oops
<<avoid
the voice mail yada yada: 416/362-8193).>>
too
much drool on my keyboard. the area code is 415, not 416....
hee hee
hee
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:30:50 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: In a nutshell...
Comments:
To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997102315240777@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mr.
Gargan,
(this
is *on* the list btw)
I mean
no disrespect. I appreciate Beat-L and
think you have done a
superb
job organizing it. Beat-L is however an
unmoderated list. Your
recent
threats to block posts, curtail discussion and .etc to stop
mudslinging
is the work of a moderator. If you wish
this role, change
Beat-L
to a moderated conference. If you do
not, if you wish this to be
an
unmoderated conf as it has been, admit that you cannot moderate an
unmoderated
conf. And apologize to all concerned
for threatening to do
so. To
calla conf "unmoderated" and at the same time claim the role of
moderator
is hypocritical.
If we
respect each other, we do not need moderation.
Most mudslinging is
temporary
and would not last.
I would
like this dispute to end. What I ask is
reasonable. I meant no
disrespect
or anything I said to constitute a personal attack.
Subscribres
of this list have been dragged through the mud, and it is not
right
for you to allow these attacks to go on without admitting to what
you
know are valid grievances. This can
end. You can end it. Or this
list
will suffer.
Again
noone is disrespecting you, but as the organizer of this list, you
need to
state pubicly that you will respect your subscribers concerns.
Richard
Wallner
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
running
late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?
i'll
help.
junky
is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and
started
smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because
he was
so busy getting drunk and high.
all his
friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to
class.
one day
when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a
cockroach
and started talking to him.
it ends
with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,
and
getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.
great
book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.
hope i
was a big help!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:39:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
emote emote emote
>
> i
believe in cliques, i even would like to join one, i once visited a
>
web site that suggested we could register as a johnson. I did try to
>
register but never heard anything back..
In some book of williams he
>
mentions me as a johnson but i can't remember which book it was and my
>
mother wants it. She is 6 feet tall
and very fierce.
> when william did that, it made me
gasp. i quess then i felt a little
funny because it is always dangerous to think
you are on the side of the
angels. It makes you fail to recognize a
fucking angel when you meet him. You
can do the most harm and bruise the peaches.
i have been going over my boxes of crap in
the basement and trying to
catalogue them and place them in plastic
sacks. I hope this is the
right thing to do as several people have told
me that i need to take
care of this crap.
god it has been fun going through the
boxes. I had my wizard scan some
of the
single sheets and want to post them.. now this is not personal mr
gargan,
for i have come to admire you and your restraint, but i have
failed at setting up my own web site for my
picture gallery. so if any
one
wants to help me figure out a way to post these. email me
pelliott@sunflower.com
incoherently
and sporadicaly yours
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:58:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: J Stauffer
In-Reply-To: <344ECF90.1046@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear J.
Stauffer,
You
write..." ...the babbling of Gerry Nicosia...a violation of rudimentary
manners."
That
surprised me.
I've
seen Gerry Nicosia provoked to anger and IMO the anger justified, but
I've
not read anything from him that I believe could be called "babbling,"
or that
was a "violastion of rudimentary manners"--close maybe, but good
people
get pushed too hard and too far sometimes.
Gerry
has established himself as a writer and researcher who is held in
high
regard. He was being honored for his work on Memory Babe long before
the
book was published. For someone to step forward and literaly call him a
thief,
dishonest, in-it-for-the-money, a liar, an anatagonistic
provocateur,
untruthful, a dormant malignancy, a full-blown cancer, etc.
along
with the direct quote from John Sampas--which I deleted and wiped
from my
mind as being an outrage that would deserve shunning.
I have
personally taken issue (directly) with Gerry for allowing a post by
one of
the Sampas posse to trigger an angry response from him. However, my
criticism
has been that he responded at all. Gerry may lose his cool, may
get
angry, but he doesn't babble--doesn't talk "indistinctly,
meaninglessly,
incoherently or like an idiot."
And
quite frankly I sit here feeling pretty stupid even taking time to
respond--so
much work to do. The whole thing has become painful. A casual
visitor
could arrive and leave with impressions of Gerry that the list
members
know are unwarranted.
Accusations
made against me are ignored. I've been attacked by pros. I'm
too
poor to sue, too aimless to die, too passive to punch, too fast to
kick,
so old people don't believe it, with a history no one wants to take a
chance
with and have a sense of humor. In the mid eighties the government
had me
under oath asking me "Are you now,or have you ever been a member of
the
Communist party?" I laughed so hard I peed in my pants. Anyone got a
problem
with this old Scot? Get in line.
As for
the estate controversy, I believe the information we have been
exposed
to is important, but I do cringe when innuendo is substituted for
facts
and civility ignored.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
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402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:35:32 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: The unpublished Kerouac
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Offhand...I
know Buddha Tells Us was published serially in Tricycle
Magazine.
Book of Sketches, bothe notebooks and typescript is in the New
York
Public Library Berg Collection, The Night Is My Woman is indeed written
in
French from 1951 but is regretably unfinished. Visions of Bill I'm not
sure
of. Visions of Lucien exists solely as an idea never realized in any
form.
Memory Babe, started in 1958, was never completed. The rest, as gerry
indicates,
indeed do exist and are in various stages of completion towards
imminent
publication. As fas as getting them out slowly, John Sampas has
been in
charge since 1992 and has put out six books since he started. How
fast
would you like them? Paul of TKQ....
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:24:28 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization:
Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Pull my daisy
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
What is
the history of this? In scattered poems
there are two versions
of the
poem. Isn't there a movie or
something? And what are you guys
looking
for? I would like to know more about
the legend of Pull My
Daisy.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:23:17 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Pull my daisy
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7BIT
hey
bentz.
i do
know that in my bootleg copy of "beat jazz: pictures from the
gone
world" snite ellis w/david
amram sing a slightly different
version
called "the crazy daisy" which is very cool as well. in
scattered
poems, (sorry a friend borrowed it and has yettogive it back)
i think
there are two or three different versions, each a little more
risque
than the other, that were composed by allen ginsberg, neal
cassady
and (obviosly) jack kerouac). i would guess that the big
two and
neal wrote a few different versions together while high and
someone
passed it along to snite ellis, who has a nice voice. anyone
else
have some corrections or additions?
randy
>
What is the history of this? In
scattered poems there are two versions
> of
the poem. Isn't there a movie or
something? And what are you guys
>
looking for? I would like to know more
about the legend of Pull My
>
Daisy.
>
>
Peace,
> --
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:22:27 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00 -0400
from
<Icychick34@AOL.COM>
Check
out Eric Mottram's book "The Algebra of Need." It's a good place to star
t. I'd give you additional suggestions but I
think you'll find other sources f
rom
different listmembers.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:24:35 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:50:50 -0400
from
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Tax
payers also pay for the fire engines.
But we don't get to drive them and r
ide on
them.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:29:13 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
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Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: The unpublished Kerouac
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thanks
for the verifaction. on regards to speed, slow down! i know
this sounds strange but some people just started
the hole beat genre
and
need alot of catching up to do.
randy
>
Offhand...I know Buddha Tells Us was published serially in Tricycle
>
Magazine. Book of Sketches, bothe notebooks and typescript is in the New
>
York Public Library Berg Collection, The Night Is My Woman is indeed written
> in
French from 1951 but is regretably unfinished. Visions of Bill I'm not
>
sure of. Visions of Lucien exists solely as an idea never realized in any
>
form. Memory Babe, started in 1958, was never completed. The rest, as gerry
>
indicates, indeed do exist and are in various stages of completion towards
>
imminent publication. As fas as getting them out slowly, John Sampas has
>
been in charge since 1992 and has put out six books since he started. How
>
fast would you like them? Paul of TKQ....
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:20:38 -0700
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
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>
Diane De Rooy wrote:
>
Richard,
>
>
This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on
>
it, you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."
>
Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a
person
>
supposed to respond to that powerful verb?
>
>
> "what have I done that is so
bad? All I was doing was trying to
>
> prevent the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its
>
> subsribers (Nicosia in this case) who was just trying to defend
>
> himself. This was not a personal
attack on Bill Gargan. I am sure
>
> Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy and he does a terrific job with this
>
> list normally. But nobody is
perfect, and he overreacted here, and
>
> by his own admission overstated his
>
> ability to effectively police this list."
>
>
Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using
the
>
power of these words to make your case against what you define as >
>
repression of free speech.
>
>
When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including
>
yourself) a favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own
>
letters, then respond.
>
That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you
>
said.
>
>
And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when
>
you can't admit it and move on.
>
>
Let it go, Richard.
And if
we are talking about facts, Richard Wallner in several posts,
including
the one you quoted above says, "This was not a personal attack
on Bill
Gargan." And yet in one of his
posts, dated 10/22, he says, "It
is a
worthwhile list and doesn't deserve to be killed by a power hungry
would-be
moderator...Just sit back and watch the debate and if you can't
stomach
it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete."
To me,
calling someone a "power hungry would be moderator" is definitely
a personal
attack, and Levi Asher was right on target in his response.
Richard,
if you want to keeping arguing about this crap, do it with
yourself,
and let the rest of us get back to discussing beat literature.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:08:21 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: hi cathie!
you can
get the Pull my Daisy video simply by calling 1-800-kerouac, and
ordering
a catatlogue. they've got great stuff like posters and t-shirts and
books
you can't find in most bookstores like "as ever" the correspondence
between
NC and AG. thats on my list to get next, when i get some cash.
hope
that helped. take care.
~~Marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:30:02 -0400
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia
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Does
anybody have a copy of Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia for sale?
I saw
it on a first edition of Memory babe and I would like to read it.
It's
subtitle, as indicated by www.amazon.com is " An Intimate Portrait of
Gay
Hustling in Chicago." I am not sure of the publisher or year of
publication.
Thanks...Paul...
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:18:01 -0400
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From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: losing it....
dear
list,
i'm
about at the end of my rope with all these off subject posts. i joined
the
list this past summer and was so thrilled to be discussing the literature
that i
love. I'm probably younger than most on the list (18) and maybe its my
innocence,
but i'm dying to get back to the real reason we subscribed here.
This is
my plea. I sent out a poem in hopes to pacify everyone and lift
spirits,
but that didn't work. i've gotten no comments and my mail is filled
with
asinine bickering. Everybody has something to say, and its i'm being
attacked,
no you're being attacked, who has the power here, you have no power
here
and so forth. Its enough to drive me mad! I feel like I'm back in
highschool.
This is sad. Can't we make peace through our common love of the
Beats?
I'm begging here.
~~Marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:46:44 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: More Di Prima
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>
James Stauffer wrote:
>
>
FOR PIGPEN
>
Velvet at the edge of the tongue,
> at
the edge of the brain,it was
>
velvet. At the edge of history.
>
>
Sound was light. Like tracing
>
ancient letter w/yr toe on the
>
floor of the ballroom.
>
They came & went, hotel guests
>
like the Great Gatsby.
>
And wondered at the music.
> Sound was light.
>
>
jagged sweeps of discordant
>
Light. Aurora borealis over
>
some cemetery. A bark. A howl.
> At
the edge of history & there was
> no time
>
>
shouts. trace circles
> of
breath. All futures. Time
>
was this light & sound
>
spilled out of it.
>
> Flickered
>
& fell under blue windows. False
drawn.
>
And too much wind.
>
> We come round.
>
Make circles. Blank as a clock.
>
Spill velvet damage on the edge
> of
history.
James,
This is
an excellent poem. Is it in one of her
books or an anthology?
Does
anyone know if she explores this circle/history/time theme in other
poems? Also really interesting is her use of
"sound is light."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:41:10 PDT
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From: Keith Medline
<mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: losing it....
Content-Type:
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Indeed
Marlene,
I was
referrd here by Dr. Rod Phillips, someone who was well respected
on this
list and I like veryone else thought that Beat relaed topics
would
dominate the discussion. However, i
soon found it was no better
than
the political policy class I am in. Who
has what power, where,
when
and over exactly what bounds can he step....
This is lame.
Who
cares if Kerouac wanted people to argue none of us do.
Amen
Marlene
Keith
>dear
list,
>i'm
about at the end of my rope with all these off subject posts. i
joined
>the
list this past summer and was so thrilled to be discussing the
literature
>that
i love. I'm probably younger than most on the list (18) and maybe
its my
>innocence,
but i'm dying to get back to the real reason we subscribed
here.
>This
is my plea. I sent out a poem in hopes to pacify everyone and lift
>spirits,
but that didn't work. i've gotten no comments and my mail is
filled
>with
asinine bickering. Everybody has something to say, and its i'm
being
>attacked,
no you're being attacked, who has the power here, you have no
power
>here
and so forth. Its enough to drive me mad! I feel like I'm back in
>highschool.
This is sad. Can't we make peace through our common love of
the
>Beats?
I'm begging here.
>
>~~Marlene
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:08:22 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: sigh
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well i
swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but
mr
walner:
have
you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and your
hysterics
and your egoism on this list by now?
like
you've been told before:
it's
bill's list.
you are
an ass, sir.
g'night.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:33:12 UT
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: More Di Prima
Diane -
di Prima's "For Pigpen" is in Pieces of a Song. i'm no expert on her,
but
cyclical themes do see to come up often (she seems to be pretty heavy into
Eastern
spirituality/mysticism). i'll go
through the book a little bit more
tonight
if i get a chance and see if that triple theme comes up regularly and
post
what, if anything, i find.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:54:45 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: sigh
i
suggest we all stop responding to this garbage. then it will die of it's
own
accord. those of you who know me, know
i have the patience of Job.
however,
Richard, you have succeeded in making me completely annoyed and
pissed
off. if you can't let it drop, then
fuck off.
ok, i
feel better. now let's not respond any
more if he posts any further on
this
particular subject. exercise your
delete keys with impunity! he will
get
tired of talking to himself.
Avalokitesvara
(also my special deity) bless this lovely list!
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:16:06 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Wichita Vortex an update
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well a
guy i met in lawrence at the memorial service who is a friend of
C.
Plymell's in Wichita is going to show me some things in wichita that
i might
not find just wandering ... and if i can find a native american
gem
salesman that i've known for years I may just show CP's friend a
side of
Wichita that he doesn't yet know about!!!
it may
actually include a few things besides truckstops to write about
:) :)
:) wish me luck!!!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:43:43 -0400
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From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
If you
all will entertain a motion from the floor... <ahem> I'd like to
suggest
you just ignore the squeaky wheels and go on with your thoughts on
Beat-L.
It's
amazing how powerfully a haranguing voice (like a two-year-old throwing
a
tantrum) can command all of one's attention, even stopping a person in
his/her
tracks and effectively overthrowing the kingdom of intelligent
discourse
in the process.
Nations
aren't all taken down by big old H-bombs, but by the infiltration of
garbage
into the collective consciousness, forcing a focus onto trivial
thought,
away from planning and dreaming and sharing.
Takes
two to tango. My advice? Sit this one out.
diane
====================
If I
had a signature on my email it would be:
"Never
mud-wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:50:33 -0500
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From: Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: New Kerouac Bibliography
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As many
on this list are aware, I have been working on a new Kerouac
bibliography
for many years. It is based on my
collection and the other
fine
Kerouac collections I have been lucky enough to examine.
The new
bibliography will add many primary items ("A" items) that Charters
missed. It will also correct the numerous mistakes
and typos in her book.
In
addition, it will add all the new material that has been published since
her
book.
The
periodical section will also look quite different. It will contain
numerous
and many early appearances by Kerouac that Charters did not list.
Of
course, his worked has appeared in many additional periodicals over the
past 20
years.
Finally,
the translation section will be vastly enlarged. This is an area
that I
take much pride in. I have found many
translations unknown to
Charters. My own collection of translations is quite
large.
If you
have any information that you think I might not know about, please
feel
free to e-mail me at ileif@ix.netcom.com
Irving
Leif
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:38:00 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: back to beat
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For the
new people on the list, who wonder why we are interested in
the
beats, and for the rest of us so that we never lose sight of the
dream
for too long, here are three passages by Jack Kerouac:
Lamb,
No Lion, 1958
"...Beat
doesn't mean tired, or bushed, so much as it means 'beato,' the
Italian
for beatific: to be in a state of beatitude, like St. Francis,
trying
to to love all life, trying to be utterly sincere with everyone,
practicing
endurance, kindness, cultivating joy of heart.
How can this
be done
in our mad, modern world of multiplicities and millions? By
practicing
a little solitude, going off my yourself once in a while to
store
up that most precious of golds; the vibrations of sincerity...
...After
publishing my book about the beat generation I was asked to
explain
beatness on TV, on radio, by people everywhere. They were all
under
the impression that being beat was just a lot of frantic nowhere
hysteria. What are you searching for? they asked
me. I answered that I
was
waiting for God to show his face. (Later I got a letter from a
16-year
old girl saying that was exactly what she had been waiting for
too.) They asked: How could this have anything to
do with mad hepcats? I
answered
that even mad hepcats with all their kicks and chicks and hep
talk
were creatures of God laid out here in this infinite universe
without
knowing what for. And besides I have
never heard more talk about
God,
the Last Things, the soul, the where-we-are-going than among kids of
my
generation and not the intellectual kids alone, all of them. In the
faces
of my questioners was the hopeless question: But Why?...
I
prophesy that the Beat Generation which is supposed to be nutty
nihilism
in the guise of new hipness, is going to be the most sensitive
generation
in the history of America and therefore it can't help but do
good. Whatever wrong comes will come out of evil
interference. If there
is any
quality that I have noticed more strongly than anything else in
this
generation, it is the spirit of non-interference with the lives of
others. I had a dream that I didn't want the lion to
eat the lamb and
the
lion came up and lapped my face like a big puppy dog and then I
picked
up the lamb and it kissed me. This is
the dream of the beat
generation."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:43:49 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: more t-shirts!
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Hi,
everyone,
I'm beginning to think my true calling
was to sell t-shirts, judging
by all
the emails I'm getting. It sure beats
the hell out of being a
biographer,
literary executor, and archive champion.
Anyway, while emptying out the
cupboards of Kerouac T-shirts, I came
across
three brand-new T's that had been donated by Last Gasp (SF comic book
and
counterculture distributor) to one of my Kerouac events. These are kind
of
wild, off-the-wall T's, all Hanes beefy T's.
I'll gladly get rid of them
for $10
apiece postpaid, and consider the money contributed to the MEMORY
BABE
ARCHIVE RECOVERY fund.
There is:
1) Zippy the Pinhead, large, full
color on white cloth, saying, "All
life is
a blur of Republicans and meat."
2)"Bad Habits" -- black T,
XL (46-48) full color illustration of
ditzy
blond with gun and cocktail and businessman type guy smoking five
cigarettes,
holding a martini and drug vile in other hand.
Balloons and
party
decorations and spilled bottle decor.
3) white t, large, a triumphant
colonel Sanders with foot on bloody
chicken
bucket and holding ax dripping blood in one hand and bloody headless
chicken
in the other--definitely for the more macabre or black-humor types
among
you.
That's all I've got, folks!
Please confirm your order with me
before sending check and also to
get my
address if you don't have it.
Best always, Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:46:14 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: more t-shirts!
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well
finely a new thread.
i wore
my precious beat-l tee shirt when i read in austin, and it gave
me
powerrrrr.
maybe i should wear the zippy one if i decide
to read in topeka.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:59:07 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Brian M. Kirchhoff"
<bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks
out.
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.91.971022142017.20380A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>
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this
may be true in new jersey, but my best friend works at a b dalton in
omaha
and they keep all copies of OTR locked up in the safe because every
copy
that went onto the shelves was stolen. (it was the only book that
anyoone
ever seemed to steal at their store.) they also had a heck of a
time
even getting some f the darma in! (finally got my copy though. looks
good so
far.)
i'm
glad your store is beat friendly. my experience with that company is
that
they are not typically this way.
Brian
M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE
"Someone
must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having
done
anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial
On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:
> hi
folks,
> i work for B Dalton Books which is
affiliated with B&N and let me
>
just say that we never keep any books behind our counter. Our jack
>
kerouac section is always well stocked with the latest releases which
>
included the recent 40th anniversary edition of On the Road. Perhaps some
>
stores have policies regarding this issue but in my case (A N.J. store
>
inside a mall) we don't practice that type of customer service. This
> includes
William Burrough's books which have dominated two shelves on
>
their own in the fiction section. And reecently i have been on the
>
mission to order The Beat Generation trading cards by Tundra Press (i
>
think its Tundra) which is a rare item to find but nevertheless something
> we
should sell to the public. All in all, my B.Dalton store is a beatnik
>
haven.
> jason
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:08:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Brian M. Kirchhoff"
<bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022160541.604A@cap1.capaccess.org>
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richard,
have
you considered switching to a decafinated blend?
Brian
M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE
"Someone
must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having
done
anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial
On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> On
Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> >
Mr. Wallner, I own the list. I started
it and when I choose I will shut it
> dow
>
> n. Start your own list if you
like.
>
>
>
>
Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone on
>
this list. Go ahead and shut it
down. You cant stop the members of this
>
list from collectivley communicating with each other.
>
> So
shut it down. I have archives of this
list, I can put together a list
> of
all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can kill
>
it. The only difference is that I
would never consider mysef more than
>
just another participant. I wouldnt
bully people off the list, threaten
>
others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is appropriate.
>
> This list exsists because of the people on
it. You can change the
>
forwarding address. You cant kill it,
not as long as we want it to go on.
>
>
since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it. Period.
>
>
RJW
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:43:37 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
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On Wed,
22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>
since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it. Period.
>>
>>
RJW
Hmm,
feels like I never left... {;^>
Mike
PS.
Hello to any old friends out there - and to any new
ones!! It was a nice 5 and a half month beat-l
break!!
If
anyone has tried to contact me in the last few
months
and I didn't reply to your message, it's probably
because
I never got to them (too busy with school shit,
etc.,
and kinda lost track of my email).
Sorry!!
Neil,
if you're still out there, get in touch...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:56:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John J Dorfner
<Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: losing it....
marlene...you've
said it all..."from the mouths of babes..." don't let this
talk
get you down kid. kerouac, ginsberg,
burroughs and the rest belong to
people
like you. certainly not what's going on
here.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:15:34 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>
Subject: What Happened??????
Did I get lost in the late night
suffle? Haven't recieved a posting
for 3
days.Is it something I said or did? Or is it one of those nasty
computer
gods doing their tricks on us?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:16:20 -0400
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From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Tom Waits-On the Road
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Stephen
Ronan (beat archivist/writer extraordinaire) mentions in this
months
issue of Dharma Beat Magazine about the release by Geffen Records of
a
previously unheard recording of Jack Kerouac reading from "On the
Road".
He goes
on to state "There is every reason to suspect that this is the
greatest
sustained recording by Kerouac and the release will be another
milestone
in the publication of his work."
This
guy really knows his stuff as his "Discography of the Beat Generation
- Disks
of the Gone World" will attest. I hope he keeps us informed. I also
found
this on Tom Waits page-
Geffen
Records will release a Jack Kerouac album in early 1998. This album
will
feature rare recordings by Jack Kerouac, but it will also include the
song
"On The Road". The music to this was written by Tom Waits and will
feature
Jack Kerouac with Tom Waits and the members of Primus performing
the
music behind it. This track was recorded earlier this year at Prairie
Sun
Studios in Northern California.
This is
exciting stuff. If anyone has anymore info on this keep us
informed.
Phil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:40:31 -0500
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: work in progress (very early early
in process) please make
suggestions Post #1
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>=20
>
SALINA: The FireWalk Saga a
Retrospective Rambling.....
>=20
>
=93ONCE I was young and had so much more orientation and could talk wit=
h
>
nervous intelligence about everything and with clarity and without as
>
much literary preambling as this; in
other words this is the story of
> an
unself-confident man, at the same time of an egomaniac, naturally,
>
facetious won=92t do -- just to start at the beginning and let the trut=
h
>
seep out, that=92s what I=92ll do --.
It began on a warm summernight -=
-
>
......=94
>
Jack Kerouac, The Subt=
erraneans
>=20
>
=93You see control can never be a means to any practical end . . . It c=
an
>
never be a means to anything but more control . . . Like junk . . .=94
> William S. Burroughs, J=
r., Naked Lunch
>=20
>
=93The sword of discovery goes before the couch of laughter. One sneer=
s
> by
modifying a snarl; one smiles by
modifying a sneer. You should hav=
e
>
lived twice, and smiled the second time.=94
>
Kenneth Burke, Towards=
a Better Life
>=20
>
June 30, 1997. HOT HOT HOT Summer
afternoon in Salina -- the journal
>
predicted something around 98 degrees for a high today. The affective
>
level of heat goes far far beyond temperature.
I can feel a storm
>
coming here on the plains for days and days before the arrival. Some
>
form of sinus injury it appears -- perhaps some form of affective scar
> of
the previously disclosed FireWalk thru Madness. At any rate,
>
yesterday the storm that had been coming and the waiting that was
>
leaving me nearly incapacitated hit Salina and it was barely a storm at
>
all. It was a downpour for certain but
the length of time that the
>
universe opened and dropped itself wet and wild on the plains was
>
nothing like what was necessary or even acceptable. It seems the
>
farmers and the universe are having a battle of wills over precipitatio=
n
>
and something around here which they call Harvest that I know next to
>
nothing about though I probably should given that i=92m something of a
>
native but I don=92t and so I feel the universe=92s side of the battle =
from
>
the scars of the FireWalk and not the farmer=92s angle and so as a resu=
lt
> my
sinuses control my being and I am incapacitated in a way that is
>
unnatural for a thirty-five year old man.
>=20
>
Looking back on the FireWalk thru Madness, there is much I can smile
>
about this second time around -- but today on this afternoon one of
>
those things has little to do with smiles -- perhaps sneers and snarls
> at
a self-imposed control that Monday is =93Clean the Bathroom day=94 w=
hich
> is
horribly significant in my current project of returning to the livin=
g
>
(the re-entry suggested back in Colt-45 appears to have been far from
>
compleat and only now am I beginning to become spatially connected to
>
what philosopher priests might call the HERE or the NOW or the often
>
combined HERE & NOW). And since it
is afternoon, the other scar that i=
s
>
more than a daily ritual but a near physiological necessity and control=
s
> my
being which most people don=92t understand at all is coming on.
>
Siesta. Everyday a siesta of
undetermined length. And many speak of
>
envy and whatnot but they simply don=92t understand that this scar of t=
he
>
FireWalk has little to do with the lazy and pleasant freedom
>
traditionally associated with the term siesta and maybe I shouldn=92t e=
ven
> call
it that. This is a matter of control of
my body and its rhythms
>
and is a necessity for anything approaching Koyanisquatsi or whatever
>
that word for balancing act is. So in
Salina a town in Kansas that
>
contains some of my roots i=92m recovering from the re-entry of the
>
projections mentioned in FireWalk and looking back over my shoulder in =
a
>
retrospective glance on that saga and realizing that the control of the
>
siesta this scar of the journey is overwhelming even the desire, want o=
r
>
need to begin rambling about the connections of FireWalk then and
>
FireWalk now and beginning to understand what intrapersonal ecology is
> an
the sacredness of space beginning with the morning ritual of
>
showering in the sacred place called bathroom though I may never take a
>
bath in there.
>=20
> It
all starts with an awareness of scene.
I have almost none. FireWal=
k
>
was all about escaping time I suppose.
What I called images were hardl=
y
>
anything close to scenery. I don=92t
even have the vocabulary to descr=
ibe
>
scene and yet here in Salina in my introduction to space into the HERE
>
things will begin with scene. The scene
is a small room at the back of
> my
apartment 23. It is my bathroom. It is hardly a place yet and not
>
part of anything called a home and yet it is getting closer as my
>
awareness improves and I begin to act within the frame of the scene
>
rather than standing outside the bubble condemning plasticity as an
>
observer and non-participant in the reality of living. I guess it is
>
about time as well -- that is part of the scene and the time is a
>
chronological concept that i=92m beginning to live within at the edge
>
moving inward in the notions of morning ritual and weekly ritual and
>
starting in the scene of the bathroom in the beginning of the day and o=
f
>
the week.
>=20
>
Now this all started with an experiment which I call Experimental
>
Showering which is recorded in a 17 page report with an accompanying
>
soundtrack which might be exposed to the light of day sometime but is
>
not that important now, here. What is
of some importance is that as a
>
result of the experiments I have begun to find a sense of place that is
>
approaching ritual sacredness and it is a place i=92m aware of and act =
to
>
maintain ecologically and it is a place where I maintain myself
>
ecologically and it is conventionally called a bathroom but for the tim=
e
>
being it might be my temple. And in
this place of which I will begin t=
o
>
describe the scenery at some point in this rambling I am beginning to
>
undergo the necessary transformations to living within the spatial
>
dimensions of a real environment in the sacred realm and the extensions
> to
other spatial dimensions of varying kind, form, scene all the way I
>
suppose to the profane but the sacred temple provides a place of
>
grounding that connects me to living within the circle of accepted
>
reality.
>=20
>
I=92d said it started with scene. Well
when you rent an apartment as I
>
have rented this place titled number 23, you don=92t really choose the
>
scene, you don=92t create it. The basic
dimension of reality is provid=
ed
> to
the tenant and the tenant -- myself -- must work within certain
>
parameters and talents to create a sense of the sacred in the entirety
> of
the place that is something like home.
The temple-like sacredness
>
towards which the bathroom is moving is beyond home though it is within
>
home it is in construction towards something beyond home and the entire
>
apartment is in construction towards home and I am in construction
>
towards becoming a human being. Funny
-- the snarl & sneer turn to
>
smile -- in the FireWalk a giant kicks me into a patch of clover and I
>
announce something about home -- but at the time and even to this day
>
i=92ve lived outside of a reality which includes home some sort of
>
wandering pilgrim on a quest for a proper roost but finding fault
>
sufficient with each along the path and never considering Action that
>
might improve the roost.
>=20
> So
the scene is the home the the roost and the tired pilgrim under
>
construction and the bathroom moving beyond home while the apartment
>
moves towards home but what of the vocabulary of scenery. See I still
>
have not provided anything of an image proper and it is a circular path
>
downward from the clouds where I have lived to even begin to provide
>
description let alone detail of a particular place of a scene of a
>
simple room in apartment 23.
>=20
> It
is small.
> It
is a bathroom.
>
Can you see it
> in
your mind?
> Do
you have a
>
picture
> of
a bathroom
>
BUT
>
what if it is nothing
>
like
> my
bathroom
>
what if your
>
whole understanding of
>
this story
>
with bathroom as
>
protagonist is blocked
> at
the outset
>
because the portrait in your mind of this particular
>
bathroom
> is
nothing at all like the particular bathroom - in Fact?
>
And it would be my error
>
not yours
>
because as of yet i=92ve been unable to go very far,
> to
go anywhere at all -- really -- in providing a detailed description
> of
this bathroom
>
this particular bathroom in this particular apartment which you only
>
know by its
>
number 23.
>=20
>
And so if these meandering thoughts are to have a plot at all, in the
>
outset at least, the plot is the discovery of the bathroom, the
>
construction of the bathroom to the point of the sacred, the
>
reconstruction of the apartment named =93Number 23=94 to something akin=
to
>
Home base in the great games of Kosmic tag my mind sometimes wanders
>
through. But for now at least, the
bathroom is the protagonist and I a=
m
>
all the other parts, the observer, the construction worker, the interio=
r
>
design specialist. It is a solitary
story of a young man and a
>
bathroom. An odd story that I imagine
it will be.
>=20
>
I=92ve titled this meandering rambling prose Salina at the outset becau=
se
> in
many ways even though so far I am writing about a bathroom in an
>
apartment named #23 that COULD exist any many many places in the
>
universe, this particular apartment named #23 and this particular
>
bathroom within it are situated in a Place named Salina in a state
>
called Kansas. And this Place is
significant to me personally in that
> it
is the town in which I came of age - but perhaps never made it to
>
what we call of age. It seems that I
somehow avoided the examination o=
n
>
basic environmental awareness, of basis orientation which ought be part
> of
any curriculum of living and I avoided and would have flunked and
>
been continually held back. So perhaps
if the bathroom ever reaches th=
e
>
point of shrine or temple, and the apartment named #23 reaches the poin=
t
> of
being a home, then perhaps if my fingers are still hitting the keys
>
the scene will broaden further and further to examine a scene named
>
Salina. At present my description of
Salina is that one pretends that
>
=93Eisenhower is still President and that the Pledge of Allegiance is a
>
Good or Nice poem.=94 Several have
wholeheartedly agreed with this not=
ion
>
and said that it makes Salina seem more liveable with this realization
> --
But typical of my descriptions so far in the FireWalk and other
>
writings it tells you nothing about Salina.
So there is a hope that
>
this writer will eventually compleat his construction process in the
>
bathroom and in the rest of the apartment named #23 and move outward to
>
discover and detail a larger circle of his scene that is a town named
>
Salina.
>=20
> It
is a funny, backward twist of conception that I find myself in. For
> a
number of reasons that I will leave to the therapists of various
>
characters, I am more aware and understanding of potential human action
> at
the level of the universe, the globe, the nation than I am in of the
>
various plots and subplots of regional and town life here in the Place
>
where I supposedly came of Age.
Untwisting this knot seems an
>
interesting project and hopefully a worthwhile tale to tell to y=92all
>
whoever you are and where-ever you are.
And I imagine that the
>
connections we find in my older writings where images are connected in
>
archetypal symbols at best will be strengthened despite the separation
>
that will be created by the characterization of this particular bathroo=
m
>
and this particular apartment named #23 in a town named Salina.
>=20
> So
back to the bathroom. Up into now my
description of a bathroom woul=
d
> be
primarily focused on notions of function or purpose. I would have
>
been caught up in =93the idea of the bathroom=94 and my writing on bath=
rooms
> is
relatively rare but there is no sense of any difference really
>
between one bathroom and another because my mentality -- and it is a
>
mentality -- was basically one of a bathroom is a bathroom much in the
>
sense of if it quacks like a duck it is a duck. Well such a sterile
>
world this creates for anyone who even pretends to be a living human
>
being.
>=20
> At
the end of Colt-45 I proclaimed: =93I lived.=94 Any dead man can sa=
y
>
that -- the epitath on his tombstone doing the talking. To say that =93=
I
> am
living=94 is a more difficult claim and requires stepping inside the
>
portrait of the living ... the great play on the great stage that is th=
e
>
living. It might require actions --
although inaction itself may be a
>
form of action -- but it needs a sense of scene of connection to the
>
ground one walks on. It is hard to be
anything but a mis-fit when one=92=
s
>
mind defies gravity and one=92s awareness allows one to walk five feet =
off
>
the ground.
>=20
> So
part of this whole construction process is about grounding. And
>
grounding is an important concept in notions of electrical engineering
> of
which I am ignorant and grounding is a sense of rootedness in some
>
pagan thought which i=92ve walked through five feet above the ground
>
without being sufficiently impressed to take root. It seems that the
>
grounding, the rootedness, the bathroom is the temple the sacred place
>
that connects so many of us in the universe in so many ways. In the
>
general sense, abstract sense, archetypal sense the bathroom is perhaps
>
the place where all of us are close to alike in our use of a Place for =
a
>
Function. A bathroom is where rituals
of elimination and cleansing
>
occur. This is true in most bathrooms
that i=92ve witnessed regardless=
of
>
the scene. BUT --
>=20
>
the scene is part of the tale and in this instance the bathroom is the
>
protagonist in a larger scene and I promise that at some point I will
>
learn how to go beyond the brief descriptions offered so far concerning
>
the characteristics of this particular bathroom in this particular
>
apartment named #23 in this particular town named Salina.
>=20
>
what is this madman up to now??? some
may wonder this and I may be
>
wondering this myself. and to be honest
since the tale is just
>
beginning and the scene is still under construction and the action is
>
the construction of the setting and the characters - so far at least -
>
are the setting it is probably obvious to all that have made it thus fa=
r
>
that the madman is up to something and the madman and the readers have
> no
clue what it is. Perhaps the particular
bathroom in the particular
>
apartment named #23 in the particular place called a town named Salina
>
has a better sense of what is going on than the fingers striking the
>
keys.
>=20
>
Actually, this would not be surprising because the owner of these
>
fingers has No Sense. In many many
respects he is a Moron.
>=20
> He
is a Moron.
>=20
>
Moron is a pejorative term with connotations that would make just about
>
anyone including the owner of these fingers to shirk and hide from the
>
reality of its label -- but it is not supposed to be a pejorative term.
> It
is supposed to be a descriptive term -- merely a statement of Fact.
>
And that is how it is used here. The
owner of these fingers accepts
>
that he factually is a Moron. This is a
revelation. The control of
> Moron
may be impossible to break but it certainly cannot be broken
>
without the acceptance of the Fact of the state of being named Moron.
>=20
>
And yet despite the Fact that he is a Moron the bathroom allows him to
> be
regardless of this status. The bathroom
is not prejudiced.
>=20
> So
the bathroom is small. maybe if I begin
with something of a floor
>
plan in words I can start to provide an image of what this particular
>
bathroom appears to look like. I will
warn that I was a very very poor
>
drafting student - along with all other aspects of junior high shop. I
>
lacked the precision necessary for such arts.
Also I must confess that
> I
have nothing approximating a tape measure.
>=20
> So
for purposes of tape measure I will use the picture in your mind of =
a
>
fairly ordinary size bathtub. It is
crammed into the deep end of the
>
room sideways taking up all available floor space. So the width of the
>
small bathroom is length of a fairly ordinary size bathtub and not a
>
cubit more. The rest is where
description becomes more complicated for
> me
and I will do my best to provide some sensation of the general floor
>
plan.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:43:05 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Bill Morgan's book: First Printing sold
out
I was
chatting with Bill this morning, asking him how book sales were going.
He told
me City Lights had already sold out the first run of 3,000 copies and
it's
gone back for its second printing. I can certainly understand why.
I was
reading it last night at bedtime, and again when I got up this morning.
Even
the description I posted to Beat-L yesterday doesn't do the book
justice.
I think
Bill's book is going to become a classic of Beat scholarship.
Again,
it's titled "The Beat Generation in New York," and it was just
released
a few days ago by City Lights. You can order a copy by calling them
at
415/362-8193.
This
would make a great topic for discussion on our list. I hope a bunch of
you
order it soon, and we can share the joy of reading it as we connect these
places
to historic Beat events and personages.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:41:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: work in progress (comments
appreciated) #2
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RACE
--- wrote:
>=20
> Of
course, it isn=92t two dimensional.
This is a floor plan. I=92ll t=
ry
>
and figure out the height in some way soon.
>=20
>
The length of the bathroom from back to the entrance wall is roughly
>
turning the ordinary size bathtrub sizeways and then addeding some
>
length. How much additional
length? Not a lot but enough that the
roo=
m
>
doesn=92t seem to be a square or cube.
More than a shoebox - with the
> shoebox
in either direction. I think the best
technical word will be
>
for the moment -- a little longer.
>=20
> So
that is the basic two dimensional floor plan.
As I said it is small
>
because it also has the components of a bathroom in it.
>=20
>
Before going beyond the floor plannish sense of the room i=92m going to
>
move my brain back a bit to the subtitle here and attempt to explain ho=
w
>
all this bathroom description has to do with a retrospective, a
>
remembrance, a backward glance at the writings I did around five years
>
ago collected under the title among other things FireWalk Thru Madness.
> In
that writing I took folks through the door into chaos -- open wide -=
-
>
without them having to risk their own psyches.
My psyche on the other
>
hand was already quite at risk because the commentaries there were for
>
the most part not fictional accounts but fairly real anecdotes and
>
legendary tales of my factual experiences outside the world of fact.
>=20
> My
writing now is somewhat of a twiting and reversing in the
>
recollection process the retrospective will hopefully embrace creativit=
y
>
once again but this time creativity will be a tool to return from chaos
> to
a concrete contained world. The doors
to chaos once opened can
>
always be re-entered, but one wants some choice in the when and where o=
f
>
such events. The bathroom is the first
step in an interior design
>
project a very concrete creative project that imagines moving the
>
fragments of my psyche still left behind in the realms of chaos back
>
into the present world of the living.
It is an experiment. One never
>
knows in such experiments what will suceed and fail. But armed with a
>
bathroom and the good old American creative method of trial and error I
>
will try to create a protagonist out of the bathroom which can contain
>
the memories of FireWalk retaining the art of the chaos without losing
>
the stability and self-containment of concrete existence.
>=20
>
Now did that make ANY sense to ANY one?
>=20
>
Brief Dream of company. Sal, Dean, and
Carlo. I was in the bathroom
>
improving connections. I pushed them
out out out of the living room of
>
apartment #23 saying =93The Bathroom isn=92t even ready Yet.=94 I don=92=
t know
> if
they were real, and I don=92t know if
their feelings were hurt -- b=
ut
>
the bathroom is the protagonist, at least until the wins chainge. Old
>
Bull Lee had the sense not to come to this particular apartment named
>
#23 before the vortex released an invitation.
>=20
> So
this is nearing the physical description of the particular bathroom
> in
the apartment named #23. The ceiling is
taller than my outstretched
>
arm. It is probably taller than the
width of the room and perhaps even
>
the length. So the room is nearly a
cube. And I rented the apartment
>
with the bathroom in construction -- I frankly don=92t remember what wa=
s
>
being done because I didn=92t pay attention to such matters with my hea=
d
>
always in the clouds. -- and as things continue to unfold in the
>
bathroom and the rest of the apartment named #23 and the universe named
>
Salina I will gradually come back to the soul of the experience the
>
bathroom where the designs are creating my way back from chaos.
>=20
> Now
the cocoon that was my life just a few moments back or perhaps
>
months had almost closed to the point of limiting my life to the living
>
room couch. The couch is where I
lived. Any other place might be an
>
area I had to walk through from time to time, but I was completely and
>
totally unaware of the environment around me and unaware of my
>
ecological connection to these spaces and places. I was merely passing
>
thru. Much like one passes thru the
fire in the firewalk. A lack of
>
awareness leaves one far far far from anything akin to action. At most
>
the unaware function in the realm of motion -- like leaves falling from
>
the trees -- but the awareness of ecological connection is not
>
sufficient to produce action. Action is
an entirely separate stage.
>
The bathroom in the apartment #23 was in the realm of motion. I
>
pissed. I shit. That was it. I paid no attention to these processes
>
and was unaware of the surroundings.
These were like leaves falling
>
from the trees. The place was not
important except that it was a
>
bathroom. The action was related only
to a purpose and not to an
>
environment, a space, a place. I walked
out of the HERE of the Present
>
everytime I left my couch.
>=20
>
How did I move beyond the cocoon and into the awareness. The first
>
measure was not awareness but action.
Action led to awareness which le=
d
> to
disgust and more awareness and action and the actions spilled into
>
levels of awareness and action never dreamed of in the blackness of my
>
couch cocoon existence. The action was
a form of contract I suppose
>
between myself and another involving the bathroom. I resolved to take =
a
>
shower every morning for a week. What
follows will be the journal
>
connected to that action and the subsequent awareness and actions in
>
part most initially correlated to a Place called the bathroom in a
>
particular place called My bathroom in a particular apartment named #23
> --
which I could not call MY apartment yet for the mine-ness involves
>
more than paying the rent check.
Mine-ness involves the creative activ=
e
> of
inventing one=92s order, one=92s home.
And the process may be days,
>
weeks, months, years, one never knows with such notions of
>
Transfiguration. But with every drop of
water from the shower -- the
>
extent and direction of Transfiguration appears to alter the course of
> my
awareness and encourage actions away from the cocoon. So as Firewal=
k
>
begins with a discussion of Fire as essential element -- this journey
>
back begins with another essential element Water the power within it to
>
soothe, cool, cleanse and douse(sp?) flames.
>=20
>
The morning breaks each day and the water comes in the shaving, the
>
brushing of teeth, the showering -- even the morning coffee. This is
>
how the bathroom in the particular apartment named #23 was discovered.
>
The wakefulness creates an awareness of the immediate surroundings. An=
d
>
what did I discover?
>=20
> So
far i=92ve only described the dimensions of the bathroom in general
>
terms. I believe you have a sense of
where the shower is -- the tub
>
seems too small for an adult and has the old chrome doors to mark off
>
the showering area from the remainder of the room. The tile in the
>
shower is pink. Not hot pink, a softer
pink but pink nonetheless. And
>
the pink extends out of the shower to the sink area -- is this called a
>
vanity? I always thought that name
hilarious -- and so the hygenic par=
t
> of
the bathroom creates a mood in which the pink panther theme plays
>
with one=92s brain. It is definitely
the shade of pink of the pink
>
panther after a few years of fading.
>=20
>
The toilet sits next to the vanity and completes the cramped space of
>
the right wall. It is a toilet. I don=92t recall the brand -- though =
I
> do
recall during the midst of the Firewalking that the brands of toilet=
s
>
had some Cosmic significance. Most
toilets do have a name attached the=
y
>
are simply ignored. And I am resisting
the urge to go investigate the
>
name of the particular toilet in the particular apartment named #23 but
>
the resistance may be futile. It would
be better to move on to a
>
description of the wallpaper -- which may be rightly beyond describing.
>
But the temptation is too great and so I will investigate the toilet=92=
s
>
name and hope the symbolism does not disturb the current attempt to
>
connect with a grounded little paradise in this place called My
>
bathroom.
>=20
> It
is an Anonymous toilet. How fitting!!!!
>=20
>
Typing about toilets and this particular toilet in this particular
>
apartment named #23. Maybe I should
name my toilet. I think I should
>
but I must wander through thoughts of toilets a bit first and zoom
>
through thoughts that pass my mind about toilets in general and this
>
toilet in particular and maybe then I can find a decent proper name for
> MY
toilet in MY bathroom in this particular apartment named #23.
>=20
> My
bathroom and toilet have indoor plumbing.
No outhouse -- though
>
sometimes the space seems somewhat cramped in my particular bathroom.
>
This problem is easily resolved by sitting down on the toilet getting
>
that toilet-seat-on-your-ass feeling -- closing your eyes -- tipping
>
your head back slightly and think serious about the last time you were
> in
an actual outhouse. If you=92ve never
been in an actual outhouse --
>
just do it -- find one and sit there and shit there -- then you will
>
understand. After this contemplation,
visualization game - bring your
>
head forward, open your eyes, if you shit during the exercise make
>
appropriate cleaning measures and look around and take in all the huge
>
vast space in your bathroom compared to the vision of the outhouse and
>
suddenly your bathroom will expand for you.
When I do this exercise on
> my
Anonymous toilet in MY bathroom in the particular apartment named
>
#23, it expands to feel like a warehouse size room -- at least! So the
>
first difference between outhouses and bathrooms is spatial -- the
>
second difference is the miracle of modern plumbing. Not to
>
underestimate the miracle of plumbing, but it technically is the crampe=
d
>
feeling in an outhouse which gives the sensation that one may
>
permanently join the shit.
>=20
>
Plumbing. Who understands it -- raise
your hand! I know as much about
>
the mechanics of plumbing as I do about Einstein=92s theory of maximize=
d
>
minimum electrical currency -- perhaps I know more about the theorem in
>
fact. Plumbing is compleat and total
magic. Who can deny this? Yet w=
e
>
often take plumbing for granted. Next
time someone visits for a
>
cocktail party -- a whole group -- say that you=92ve learned a magic
>
trick. Lead them all to the
bathroom. Once inside with the door
>
closed, look very serious, hummm mantras, then gently stroke the flushe=
r
> on
the toilet, smile and walk out. It is
more polite to leave the door
>
open when leaving to help your guests find there way. And if you reall=
y
>
think that you can explain that trick to me and how it isn=92t magic, j=
ust
> go
on and explain why the water swirls one way north of the equator and
>
the other way south of the equator in plain Kansas english and then if
>
you can explain that little trick, by then i=92ll have found something
>
else you take for granted that is amazingly magical that will knock you
> on
your ass.
>=20
>
The next thing about this Anonymous toilet is four little devices which
>
create perhaps the Greatest Controversy in the history of the Universe.
>
They are called hinges. The hinges work
to allow the lid and seat of
>
the toilet to either sit flat on the toilet basin or to sit upright in =
a
>
???perpinduclar??? relation to the basin.
There really is little
>
controversy over the two hinges on the lid.
Without these two hinges
>
anyone would have difficulty fulfilling the intimate functions of
>
human-toilet relations. The other two
hinges, however, are rightly the
>
cause of conflicts more powerful than a locomotive so to speak. It is
>
the old should the seat be up or down dilemma?
>=20
>
The should the seat be up or down dilemma ought to be properly
>
described. There is a contingent of the
human species that tends to
>
absent mindedly leave the toilet seat and lid in the upright position
>
after the act technically referred to as elimination of fluid from the
>
urinary tract. These are boys. There is another contingent of the
>
human species that DEMANDS that the toilet seat be placed down after
> every
ritual act of pissing by the contingent known as boys. These are
>
girls. This is obviously no simple
conflict to mediate.
>=20
>
Now girls insist that the seat be down because they have to pee sitting
>
down and if the seat is up they might sit down and fall into the toilet
>
basin -- Horror of Horrors!!! This fear
(paranoia?) is the primary
>
basis for the demand that boys should put down the seat.
>=20
>
Boys always answer this by the incredible explanation that all should
>
memorize for such situations -- =93I forgot=94. Now how can the girl a=
rgue
>
with that. She can get furious but she
can=92t know if the boy really
>
forgot or not. If the boy really forgot
than she may be brought to fee=
l
>
some compassion for his absent-mindedness.
>=20
>
Don=92t count on it! While the
contingent of the human species called
>
girls are stereotyped as having unfathomable capacities for deep empath=
y
>
and compassion, this is a false belief.
All one need do is observe the
>
girl who catches the boy leaving the seat up to know that compassion is
>
not an intrinsic quality.
>=20
>
Now in my particular case, this great controversy is primarily academic
>
since I live alone as a hermit and one of the most pleasant things abou=
t
> this
lifestyle is the absolute abandon one feels at the freedom to not
>
give a flying fuck where the damn toilet seat is.
>=20
> I
admit that being a boy I am probably biased in this matter. I hope
>
that some day a girl will visit my apartment making the question a
>
practical matters. Some days I can
ponder this possibility for hours
>
plotting and planning my strategy in the Great Controversy of the Toile=
t
>
Seat. From this point of view, I have
some words of advice for the
>
boys. Girls may wish to skip the next
bit. I will not be surprised if
>
many a girl upon reading this will compleatly forget her compassionate
>
nature and come searching for my particular apartment named #23 with
>
fire in her eyes and prepared to murder me in cold blood. I will take
>
this risk partly because it offers the possibility of getting some girl=
s
> to
come to my particular pad.
>=20
> So
the first thing is don=92t count on the =93I forgot=94 line. They a=
re on
> to
it. I recall visiting a bathroom in
Rock Island when visiting a
>
friend of mine who was part of the contingent of the human species
>
called girl. I was standing there
pissing away and looked in front of
> me
and there posted for every boy in huge letters was a declaration of
>
the apartment policy that the toilet seat should be put down by boys
>
after they pee. I usually remembered to
abide by this request, but
>
being about the most absent-minded boy on the planet I must admit that
>
more than once I left the bathroom with (ARGH!) the toilet seat
>
upright. Confronted by my friend I
honestly said =93I forgot=94. She
>
hauled me into the bathroom - all her girlfriends stood at the bathroom
>
door grinning with claws sharpened - she pointed at the notice and said
> =93Are
you blind today?=94 Well, what was I to
do. I=92d been complet=
ely
>
caught in some girl court over breach of toilet seat contract and the
>
jury had their claws ready to inflict punishment.
>=20
> In
such a situation, the mind can do wonderful things. After a few
>
moments I opened my mouth and words came out that I had not yet thought
>
of. They were: =93I had my eyes closed.=94 Unfortunately, I was a bi=
t
>
timid from the sight of all the claws and my voice shifted to a high
> soprano
at the end of the sentence so it came out not as an explanation
>
but as an interrogative =93I had my eyes closed?=94. So they weren=92t=
buying
>
it.
>=20
>
They were closing in. So I did what any
MAN does in a situation like
>
this. I relaxed my facial muscles and
created the absolutely most
>
pitiful puppy dog face ever presented to a jury of clawed girls in the
>
history of bathrooms and hinged toilet seats.
I got off with severe
>
reprimands.
>=20
>
But I must warn that this was some time ago and given the psychic cult
> of
the old girl friend connection, I imagine that more militant
>
responses are now prepared for any boys attempting such a strategy.
>=20
> So
next time I have a question or two.
>=20
>
Question one. Why can=92t you remember
to put the seat down? This one
>
draws ire so come right back with this one: How can you trust that i=92=
ll
>
remember to lift the toilet seat? Us
boys may absent-mindedly piss all
>
over the toilet seat instead of in the basin and this is probably not
>
something you want to place your exquisite ass on. While this is
>
compleatly logical and should be sufficient to stop all the girls in
>
their tracks I have thought of another tactic.
>=20
>
Question two. Why is it more work for
you to lower the toilet seat tha=
n
>
for me to raise it? You have gravity
with you -- did you ever think of
>
that honey? (Use your discretion on the
use of the word honey here - i=
t
> is
punishable by death in discussions of the toilet seat controversy in
>
some jurisdictions). This too is
perfectly logical. Perhaps it will
>
work. It may not.
>=20
> If
it doesn=92t the cause is probably hopeless.
But I have an idea -- =
go
> to
your death in full glory. This one will
easily result in the boy=92=
s
>
murder -- but it will be death with dignity.
>=20
>
=93It is about damn time that we all think a minute about why woman can=
=92t
>
start pissing standing up!!!! All ya
gotta do is stand directly over
>
the basin. It may take some practice
and training but we all go throug=
h
>
toilet training. This will eliminate
the greatest hindrance to gender
>
equality in the history of the universe - the toilet seat controversy.
>
Just stand up and let it shoot right down there in the bowl with
>
gushes.=94
>=20
>
Now if you aren=92t immediately killed, you may hear something about ho=
w
> it
might make a mess.
>=20
>
This will help you die with dignity. If
the girl says she might make a
>
mess, say: =93boys really don=92t care much about a little piss splatte=
r
>
around now and then -- we do it ourselves absent-mindedly even with the
>
aiming ability of these serpents God gave us.=94
>=20
>
So, as I said, the previous section while about toilets in general and
>
perhaps about the Anonymous toilet in my particular bathroom in the
>
particular apartment named #23 is basically designed for me to meet
>
girls. I figure either some girls will
come intent on murder and I can
>
melt them with my puppy-dog look (the best puppy-dog look in the world =
I
>
can humbly add) OR more likely, the girls will murder so many boys that
>
use these ideas in the Great Bathroom Controversy that the proportion o=
f
>
girls to boys will continue to shift giving me better and better odds.
> In
that event, I will deny writing the book and quickly run put the sea=
t
>
down before the girls get a good look.
>=20
>
For anyone interested, the seat is up right now.
>=20
> So
I could just talk about the Anonymous toilet and toilets in general
>
for days and days and I just might do that.
>=20
>
[at this point i stopped writing and at the suggestion of several folks
>
started reading Joyce's Ulysses for the first time <grin>]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:46:09 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks
out.
In a
message dated 97-10-24 09:37:20 EDT, brian writes:
<<
this may be true in new jersey, but my best
friend works at a b dalton in
omaha and they keep all copies of OTR locked
up in the safe because every
copy that went onto the shelves was
stolen. >>
In
Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on
the
shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim
they
can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the
counter,
which pisses me off.
At the
other two stores, however, their shelves are lined with Kerouac titles
and
third-party books about jack.
I can't
understand what the deal is with people stealing these titles, but it
does
seem to be an epidemic. Anyone know anyone who's stolen anything by
jack,
WSB or Bukowski? I'd like to ask them why they do it.
Hardly
seems Beat to me.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Work in Progress -- backchannel requests
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
i
really do want and appreciate any constructive criticisms and comments
about
where this is headed.
i would
HIGHLY recommend that these occur OFF-LIST through my "backdoor"
<beg>
so as to save bandwidth for the Discussion of Beat Literature.
thanks,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:51:32 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: BEAT WEB SITES
I think
that might have been my post, unless someone else posted something
similar.
I'll send it to you directly, since you're on AOL and the links will
come to
you live.
But if
anyone else missed it, let me know, and I'll be happy to send it.
Since
the day I posted it, I've found about 30 more sites, as well, all worth
traveling
to.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:58:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Kevin Medline's guestbook
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
i've
been such a moron that i haven't signed the guestbook yet at:
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
But --
it seems to me that the Guestbook does probably provide an easy
solution
to the question of referencing Beat-L or some other source as
to
where one became aware of the Webpage.
So that might be a way of
providing
credit and "advertising <smile>" to the Beat-L for it's role
in
supporting many of the folks who both post at Kevin's page and who
visit
it.
just a
thought as I pack for wichita,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:12:20 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: BEAT WEB SITES
In-Reply-To:
<971024094842_1369205712@emout13.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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At
09:51 AM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I
think that might have been my post, unless someone else posted something
>similar.
I'll send it to you directly, since you're on AOL and the links will
>come
to you live.
>
>But
if anyone else missed it, let me know, and I'll be happy to send it.
>Since
the day I posted it, I've found about 30 more sites, as well, all worth
>traveling
to.
>
>diane
Diane,
could you post your latest updated list for the group? Thanks Phil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:33:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Farewell
Comments:
To: Marie Countryman <country@sover.net>
In-Reply-To: <199710240113.VAA27171@pike.sover.net>
MIME-Version:
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On Thu,
23 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
richard i am sorry but i am not the only one who has expressed vexation
towards
>
you and your sense of entitlement. you've brought nothing to this list, and
yet
>
you insist on insulting our host, and he is our host and he is the list owner,
and
>
yes, i think you are reveling in you own little melodrama and i think you are
an
>
ass. that's a fact
> mc
>
I love
beat literature and have studied it for a long time. I thought I
had
something to contribute to this list. I
thought I had introduced
some
interesting threads, including several that are active now
(unpublished
Kerouac, Kerouac and Barnes&Noble, a couple of others)
But if
you say I have brought nothingto this list, I guess I should
believe
you, because you are part of the clique, and nobody in it
disagrees
with anything anyone else in it has to say.
Gerry Nicosia, one
of the
most prominent members of this list, was on the verge of leaving
this
list, because Bill Gargan had threatened to block his future posts
presumably
if the tone of those posts did not suit him.
I wanted this
list to
grow, and I didnt want him or anyone else leaving because of
flared
up tempers. Noone should be on this
list who cannot respect the
other
members of this list. I didnt see
anything wrong with the Estate
mudslinging. Mudslinging is human nature. I saw a lot wrong with Bill
Gargan
reserving the right to block posts, when he has defined this list
as
"unmoderated"
Ive
seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on
against
me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about
this
list and its integrity. I just wanted
Bill Gargan to say he
understood
my concerns.
So now
Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about. I'll miss being
on this
list. But nobody here wants to give me
or my motives the benefit
of the
doubt. Nobody wants to accept that I
had good intentions.
I just
wanted a list where people can speak freely, without fear of
moderation,
blockage, or disrespect.
In any
case, I wont stay where I am not wanted.
I'll be unsubscribing at
the end
of today. Anybody who wants to discuss
beats can email me at
rwallner@capaccess.org,
or try my homepage (which I havent updated ina
while),
at www.cyberspace.org/~kerouac.
I've
not meant to be more anything more than a good participant here.
good
bye...richard wallner
p.s.
left my copy of Desolation Angels on the subway this morning and now
Im
leaving the list...this has already been a lousy day *sigh*
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:56:08 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: pome
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quoted-printable
(needs
to be centered for full visual effect)
IN
SOMNIA
for the fourth day
of the fourth year
up here in north country
i dwell in the land of
in Somnia.
in Somnia,
the rules change:
clocks run backwards
as
fast as ahead
and collide,
like two perfectly balanced arrows
two exquistely aimed arrorws
meeting in mid flight -
time
collapses.
i=92ve tried
doctors
pills
special pillows
herbal remedies
warm milk!
relaxation, meditation
chants!
(and furtive readings from the =91self
help=92
corner of local bookstore )
hell,
i=92ve even taken to ale again
as my corner store is a
redemption center!
redemption through ales!
they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,
and my pockets of change for replacements
(hell,
i think
when abstinent,
they preyed for my redemption!)
but,
nothing changes.
Until, 72 hours into
black night slowly
inching its way to dawn,
i look out my window
and
see the first snow fall
of the season.
i take this as an omen
i take this as a vision
i take this as a balm,
and i thank the winds of change :
with same disease as allen
cooking in my body
at times quiescent,
other times raging,
a life line without guarrentee
a reminder of mortality,
i
suspect the gods are smiling on me
giving me more time
to store up against an early death
so charged,
writing always becomes electric,
a force of its own :
vowels
consonants
metaphors
voices
ring in
my head,
so i spend time with poets
who would rather
stay dead:
Woolfe, Sexton, Plath
(i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow
their path),
or that of ti Jean,
Kerouac :
it=92s a critical mass:
one can drown in water, or in wine,
nothing sublime about that.
is it an affliction,
these extra hours,
dark, quiet, soft snow falling
or gift?
(these extra hours
dark, quiet, soft snow falling)
i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling
hours as the horizon point is touched by
flame
i=92m still awake
when daybreak changes snow to rain
snow washed away
in to the rain
i=92m still awake
i=92m still awake
i=92m still awake
oct 24, 97
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:23:26 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Farewell
MIME-Version:
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Richard,
as one of the people who expressed considerable exasperation with
your
latest output, I want to let you know that I don't hate you, I don't
want
you off the list, I speak for myself only, I have made friends on the
list,
marie is one of them, I never had any backchannell communications with
Bill. I
do not agree with marie that you have not contributed to the list,
but I
do agree that there is something very wrong in much of your
proclaiming
and protesting that is, as someone pointed out, just awfully
inconsistent
and quite unreal at times. Please Richard, have a better look
at what
you are doing, whether you stay on the list or not. But if you do,
as I
hope you will, get a better focus on what's real, please.
Take
your statement in this post for example:
>No
one should be on this list who cannot respect the
>other
members of this list.
Now you
are deciding that people who don't meet your standards shouldn't be
on the
list. Come on, do you expect it possible that everyone respect
everyone
else on a list? All that is necessary
is that minimal
consideration
be given to the necessity for peaceful coexistense.
Good
luck to you whatever you do
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, October 24, 1997 8:30 AM
Subject:
Farewell
>On
Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>>
richard i am sorry but i am not the only one who has expressed vexation
>
towards
>>
you and your sense of entitlement. you've brought nothing to this list,
and
>
yet
>>
you insist on insulting our host, and he is our host and he is the list
owner,
>
and
>>
yes, i think you are reveling in you own little melodrama and i think you
are
> an
>>
ass. that's a fact
>>
mc
>>
>
>I
love beat literature and have studied it for a long time. I thought I
>had
something to contribute to this list. I
thought I had introduced
>some
interesting threads, including several that are active now
>(unpublished
Kerouac, Kerouac and Barnes&Noble, a couple of others)
>
>But
if you say I have brought nothingto this list, I guess I should
>believe
you, because you are part of the clique, and nobody in it
>disagrees
with anything anyone else in it has to say.
Gerry Nicosia, one
>of
the most prominent members of this list, was on the verge of leaving
>this
list, because Bill Gargan had threatened to block his future posts
>presumably
if the tone of those posts did not suit him.
I wanted this
>list
to grow, and I didnt want him or anyone else leaving because of
>flared
up tempers. Noone should be on this
list who cannot respect the
>other
members of this list. I didnt see
anything wrong with the Estate
>mudslinging. Mudslinging is human nature. I saw a lot wrong with Bill
>Gargan
reserving the right to block posts, when he has defined this list
>as
"unmoderated"
>
>Ive
seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on
>against
me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about
>this
list and its integrity. I just wanted
Bill Gargan to say he
>understood
my concerns.
>
>So
now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about. I'll miss being
>on
this list. But nobody here wants to
give me or my motives the benefit
>of
the doubt. Nobody wants to accept that
I had good intentions.
>
>I
just wanted a list where people can speak freely, without fear of
>moderation,
blockage, or disrespect.
>
>In
any case, I wont stay where I am not wanted.
I'll be unsubscribing at
>the
end of today. Anybody who wants to
discuss beats can email me at
>rwallner@capaccess.org,
or try my homepage (which I havent updated ina
>while),
at www.cyberspace.org/~kerouac.
>
>I've
not meant to be more anything more than a good participant here.
>
>good
bye...richard wallner
>
>p.s.
left my copy of Desolation Angels on the subway this morning and now
>Im
leaving the list...this has already been a lousy day *sigh*
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:41:28 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
Hi,
Bill -
You
have my total support and appreciation for what you've accomplished with
Beat-L.....
Jeffrey
Weinberg
Water
Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:42:24 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?
We've
got a great new T-shirt of Jack Kerouac with artwork by subterranean
artist,
R. Crumb. $19.95. Large - Extra Large - XXL...check it out at
www.waterrowbooks.com.
Thanks
-
Jeffrey
WRB
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:20:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Farewell
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Don't
leave. This stuff is nerves only.
I think
at first Richard came off as off the wall.
But when he made the
post
about the "ownership" being a semantic issue, he acknowledged a lot
(I
was
going to make a similar post about what "ownership" of a list means
and
was
going to say essentially the same thing that Richard said) about what he
was
trying to get across and toned down his rhetoric a lot and clearly
stated
his viewpoints. In other words he did
come on strong but also took
the
level down a notch later.
What
else can I say. Everyone stop acting
like babies.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:23:06 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: i'm beginning to hear voices..
MIME-Version:
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...and
there's no one around...
WHO IS
BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???
thank
the gods and goddesses:
all and
whoever.
the
best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on
the
tracks.
i'm in
dylan heaven....
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:25:12 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: sigh
Mime-Version:
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At
09:08 PM 10/23/97 +0000, you wrote:
>well
i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but
>mr
walner:
>have
you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and your
>hysterics
and your egoism on this list by now?
>like
you've been told before:
>it's
bill's list.
>you
are an ass, sir.
>g'night.
>mc
>
>
Maybe
some people don't want you, MC, on the
list either but are polite
enough
to not say it??????
(Not
me--I am not speaking for myself. I
want everyone on the list on the
list. I want MC on the list I want Walner on the
list. But I must point
out it
is not polite to say things like this to another list member.)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:26:08 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
08:30 PM 10/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Does
anybody have a copy of Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia for sale?
>I
saw it on a first edition of Memory babe and I would like to read it.
>It's
subtitle, as indicated by www.amazon.com is " An Intimate Portrait of
>Gay
Hustling in Chicago." I am not sure of the publisher or year of
>publication.
Thanks...Paul...
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>
How
much you offer for it???
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:18:56 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: pome
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Love, Love talking here, major voice Love,
Love, Love
Marie,
there were some inspired long past bedtime times that I cherish in my
life
and am looking forward to more of such inspirations to come
Love
Love Love Non stop Love, No End Love
Dear
marie, I am off to the City, Email incommunicado land for me.
I
expect to see my buddy Q.R. and will have a drink with Sherri and Ann
marie
before I come back this evening.
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, October 24, 1997 9:15 AM
Subject:
pome
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:28:58 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact
Mime-Version:
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Who are
you the debate team?????
He
definately mellowed. Saying soemthing
like this is not attack on Bill
is him
toning down. I don't know why after he
began to tone down (with his
semantics
of "ownership" post people didn't begin to meet him half way.
At
08:20 AM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>
Diane De Rooy wrote:
>
>>
Richard,
>>
>>
This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on
>>
it, you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."
>>
Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a
person
>>
supposed to respond to that powerful verb?
>>
>>
> "what have I done that is so
bad? All I was doing was trying to
>>
> prevent the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its
>>
> subsribers (Nicosia in this case) who was just trying to defend
>>
> himself. This was not a personal
attack on Bill Gargan. I am sure
>>
> Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy and he does a terrific job with this
>>
> list normally. But nobody is
perfect, and he overreacted here, and
>>
> by his own admission overstated his
>>
> ability to effectively police this list."
>>
>>
Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using
the
>>
power of these words to make your case against what you define as >
>>
repression of free speech.
>>
>>
When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including
>>
yourself) a favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own
>>
letters, then respond.
>>
That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you
>>
said.
>>
>>
And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when
>>
you can't admit it and move on.
>>
>>
Let it go, Richard.
>
>And
if we are talking about facts, Richard Wallner in several posts,
>including
the one you quoted above says, "This was not a personal attack
>on
Bill Gargan." And yet in one of
his posts, dated 10/22, he says, "It
>is
a worthwhile list and doesn't deserve to be killed by a power hungry
>would-be
moderator...Just sit back and watch the debate and if you can't
>stomach
it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete."
>
>To
me, calling someone a "power hungry would be moderator" is definitely
>a
personal attack, and Levi Asher was right on target in his response.
>
>Richard,
if you want to keeping arguing about this crap, do it with
>yourself,
and let the rest of us get back to discussing beat literature.
>DC
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:32:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee"
<donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Who owns this list?
In-Reply-To: <971024123924_-1393339047@emout05.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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I
second that!
On Fri,
24 Oct 1997, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:
>
Hi, Bill -
>
>
You have my total support and appreciation for what you've accomplished with
> Beat-L.....
>
>
Jeffrey Weinberg
>
Water Row Books
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:59:17 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: J Stauffer
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Jo,
Mea
culpa. My tone and word choice were
uncalled for. I respect Mr.
Nicosia's
contribution to Beat scholarship. I am
not convinced that the
issue
is as black and white as it appears to both you and GN, but my
mind is
still open on this matter. What I said
was out of frustration
when Gerry
appeared to be joining Mr. Wallner's quixotic campaign to
"liberate"
the list from Bill--which I and an awful lot of others found
offensive. I apologize for my tone. I wish that Gerry's tone was more
temperate,
but as one who has lived long enough to be sued myself I
understand
the tendency to overstate.
Hopefully
this tempest will die down and we will discuss the literature
we all
love as friends, like we generally do.
James
Stauffer
jo
grant wrote:
>
>
You write..." ...the babbling of Gerry Nicosia...a violation of
rudimentary
>
manners."
>
>
That surprised me.
>
(snip)
>
I've seen Gerry Nicosia provoked to anger and IMO the anger justified,
However, my
>
criticism has been that he responded at all. Gerry may lose his cool, may
>
get angry, but he doesn't babble--doesn't talk "indistinctly,
>
meaninglessly, incoherently or like an idiot."
(snip)>
> As
for the estate controversy, I believe the information we have been
>
exposed to is important, but I do cringe when innuendo is substituted for
>
facts and civility ignored.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:57:01 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: sigh
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ok i
know i took the bait, mr gallaher, but that was after several off list
talks
with mr
walner, which i kept confidential, as was his wish. i agree with
leon,(that
i did
not give mr walner credit for what he has done here) but i stand firm on
my
exasperated
small piece of turf. and yeah tim, i figger out of 200 so odd people
and me
there are quite a few who surely do feel so.
it's
all right, baby blue...
mc
Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
> At
09:08 PM 10/23/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>well i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but
>
>mr walner:
>
>have you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and
your
>
>hysterics and your egoism on this list by now?
>
>like you've been told before:
>
>it's bill's list.
>
>you are an ass, sir.
>
>g'night.
>
>mc
>
>
>
>
>
>
Maybe some people don't want you, MC,
on the list either but are polite
>
enough to not say it??????
>
>
(Not me--I am not speaking for myself.
I want everyone on the list on the
>
list. I want MC on the list I want
Walner on the list. But I must point
>
out it is not polite to say things like this to another list member.)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:03:54 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
great
line from "Big Sur":
"So
I feed Alf the last of my apples which he receives with big faroff teeth
inside
his big hairy muzzle, never biting, just muffing up my apple from my
outstretched
palm, and chompling away sadly, turning to scratch his behind
against
a tree with a big erotic motion that gets worse and worse till finally
he's
standing there with erectile dong that would scare the Whore of Babylon
let
alone me."
too
funny!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:09:51 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Farewell
Comments:
cc: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>,
Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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....farewell
is a sad sad news, i hope nobody had forced to leave
the
beat-list, nor nobody can do thoughts vanishing in electronic
empty
world pushing the del button, maybe i've lost my head for
ever,
in the october wind....
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:58:00 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: road&field+reality&cut-up=#?
In-Reply-To: <199710232023.QAA18971@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version:
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#1 messy clouds
(silence)
a black cat
(silence)
meeoww meeeow
(silence)
a small farm
in the country
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
my heart
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
#2 messy clouds
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
a small farm
in the
country
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
my heart
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
YEP!
yep!
YEP!
yep!
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
#3 messy clouds
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
my heart
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
#4 messy clouds
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
#5
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
(silence)
---
Rinaldo
Autumn
Lost in Venetian Lands
24th
october 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:14:10 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD) Zappa says...
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>
Mime-Version:
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>Date:
Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:06:48 -0400 (EDT)
>From:
YokoMofo@aol.com
>Subject:
Zappa says...
>
>
>It
would be easier to pay off our national debt than to neutralize the
>long
range effects of our national stupidity.
>
>Life
is like high school with money.
>
>It
is always advisable to become a loser if you can't become a winner.
>
>There
will never be a nuclear war -- there's too much real estate
>involved.
>
>Anything
played wrong twice in a row is the beginning of an arrangement.
>
>Seeing
a psychotherapist is not a crazy idea -- it's just wanting a
>second
opinion of one's life.
>
>Thanks
to our schools and political leaderhip, the US has an
>international
reputation as the home of 250 million people dumb enough
>to
buy The Wacky Wall Walker.
>
>People
who think of music videos as an art form are probably the same
>people
who think Cabbage Patch Dolls are a revolutionary form of soft
>sculpture.
>
>The
only thing that seems to band all nations together is that their
>governments
are universally bad.
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:36:39 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks
out.
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Diane
De Rooy wrote:
>
>
> In
Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on
>
the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim
>
they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the
>
counter, which pisses me off.
>
Same
goes for Vancouver, it's gotten realy bad in recent years. Nearly
all
bookstores, except Chapters (B & N knockoff), have Bukowski,
Kerouac,
Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson, and sometimes Ginsberg either
behind
or next to the counter. I talked to an owner of one place and was
told
Bukowski and Kerouac thefts are increasing all the time. That's
really
strange...in all my obsessing with Kerouac, Buk, WSB, & HST I
never
once even considered the remote possibility of swiping one of
their
books. It's sort of fascinating, the fact that there's such a
trend
everywhere.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:45:25 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Announcement
Dear
Bill:
I've
asked City Lights to send you a review copy of the book, if you don't
get it
in the next week or so please let me know, I don't know how quickly
they
act on these requests but I hope it will be soon.
Yours,
Bill
Morgan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:00:46 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: road&field+reality&cut-up=#?
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bellisimmo,
rinaldo: i have missed you!
marie
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
#1 messy clouds
> (silence)
> a black cat
>
(silence)
> meeoww meeeow
>
(silence)
> a small farm
> in
the country
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> my heart
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
#2 messy clouds
>
(silence)
>
(silence)
>
(silence)
> a small farm
> in
the country
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> my heart
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> YEP!
> yep!
> YEP!
> yep!
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
>
#3 messy clouds
>
(silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> my heart
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
>
#4 messy clouds
> (silence)
>
(silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
>
#5
(silence)
>
(silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
> (silence)
>
(silence)
>
>
---
>
Rinaldo
>
Autumn Lost in Venetian Lands
>
24th october 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:36:14 -0600
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From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: Re: pome
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Marie,
I am with you all the way on this poem.
First snow fall here in Utah as well.
Coming at the end of a week of tired fits
and open-eyed nights, your words ring
true.
Thanks for the language blanket.
Sean D. Young
(needs
to be centered for full visual effect)
IN
SOMNIA
for the fourth day
of the fourth year
up here in north country
i dwell in the land of
in Somnia.
in Somnia,
the rules change:
clocks run backwards
as
fast as ahead
and collide,
like two perfectly balanced arrows
two exquistely aimed arrorws
meeting in mid flight -
time
collapses.
i've tried
doctors
pills
special pillows
herbal remedies
warm milk!
relaxation, meditation
chants!
(and furtive readings from the `self help'
corner of local bookstore )
hell,
i've even taken to ale again
as my corner store is a
redemption center!
redemption through ales!
they've told me they miss my bottles,
and my pockets of change for replacements
(hell,
i think
when abstinent,
they preyed for my redemption!)
but,
nothing changes.
Until, 72 hours into
black night slowly
inching its way to dawn,
i look out my window
and
see the first snow fall
of the season.
i take this as an omen
i take this as a vision
i take this as a balm,
and i thank the winds of change :
with same disease as allen
cooking in my body
at times quiescent,
other times raging,
a life line without guarrentee
a reminder of mortality,
i
suspect the gods are smiling on me
giving me more time
to store up against an early death
so charged,
writing always becomes electric,
a force of its own :
vowels
consonants
metaphors
voices
ring in
my head,
so i spend time with poets
who would rather
stay dead:
Woolfe, Sexton, Plath
(i've often wondered if i'd follow their
path),
or that of ti Jean,
Kerouac :
it's a critical mass:
one can drown in water, or in wine,
nothing sublime about that.
is it an affliction,
these extra hours,
dark, quiet, soft snow falling
or gift?
(these extra hours
dark, quiet, soft snow falling)
i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling
hours as the horizon point is touched by
flame
i'm still awake
when daybreak changes snow to rain
snow washed away
in to the rain
i'm still awake
i'm still awake
i'm still awake
oct 24, 97
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..
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Marie,
same plane.
dylan CD all around.
alternating with Harry Smith's folk
anthology.
many voices. lost times
AH
SDY
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
i'm beginning to hear voices..
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 10/24/97 1:23 PM
...and
there's no one around...
WHO IS
BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???
thank
the gods and goddesses:
all and
whoever.
the
best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on
the tracks.
i'm in
dylan heaven....
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:25:02 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: pome
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thanks,
and good to meet you sean! (i have to say i'm liking this pome a
lot)
mc
Sean
Young wrote:
> Marie,
>
> I am with you all the way on this poem.
> First snow fall here in Utah as well.
> Coming at the end of a week of tired
fits
> and open-eyed nights, your words ring
> true.
>
> Thanks for the language blanket.
>
> Sean D. Young
>
>
(needs to be centered for full visual effect)
> IN
SOMNIA
>
> for the fourth day
> of the fourth year
> up here in north country
> i dwell in the land of
> in Somnia.
>
> in Somnia,
> the rules change:
> clocks run backwards
> as
> fast as ahead
> and collide,
> like two perfectly balanced arrows
> two exquistely aimed arrorws
> meeting in mid flight -
>
>
time
> collapses.
>
> i've tried
> doctors
> pills
> special pillows
> herbal remedies
> warm milk!
> relaxation, meditation
> chants!
> (and furtive readings from the `self help'
> corner of local bookstore )
>
> hell,
> i've even taken to ale again
> as my corner store is a
> redemption center!
>
> redemption through ales!
> they've told me they miss my bottles,
> and my pockets of change for replacements
> (hell,
> i think
when abstinent,
> they preyed for my redemption!)
>
> but,
> nothing changes.
> Until, 72 hours into
> black night slowly
> inching its way to dawn,
> i look out my window
> and
> see the first snow fall
> of the season.
>
> i take this as an omen
> i take this as a vision
> i take this as a balm,
> and i thank the winds of change :
>
> with same disease as allen
> cooking in my body
> at times quiescent,
> other times raging,
> a life line without guarrentee
> a reminder of mortality,
>
> i
> suspect the gods are smiling on me
> giving me more time
> to store up against an early death
>
> so charged,
> writing always becomes electric,
> a force of its own :
> vowels
> consonants
> metaphors
> voices
>
ring in my head,
>
> so i spend time with poets
> who would rather
> stay dead:
>
> Woolfe, Sexton, Plath
> (i've often wondered if i'd follow their
path),
>
> or that of ti Jean,
> Kerouac :
> it's a critical mass:
> one can drown in water, or in wine,
> nothing sublime about that.
>
> is it an affliction,
> these extra hours,
> dark, quiet, soft snow falling
>
> or gift?
> (these extra hours
> dark, quiet, soft snow falling)
>
> i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling
> hours as the horizon point is touched by
flame
>
> i'm
still awake
> when daybreak changes snow to rain
> snow washed away
> in to the rain
>
> i'm still awake
>
> i'm still awake
>
> i'm still awake
> oct 24, 97
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:22:07 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
MIME-Version:
1.0
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hello
Beatlist!
not to
disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean. every
now and
then
somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for school,
and somebody
else
will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy ass,
do the work
yourself!"
now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information, but i
peronally
do not
think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine students
might wanna
use
this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books they
want some
"real
live" perspectives.
whatever.
Eric S.
On Thu,
23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis
<kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
wrote:
>
running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?
>
i'll help.
>
junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and
>
started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because
> he
was so busy getting drunk and high.
>
all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to
>
class.
>
one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a
>
cockroach and started talking to him.
> it
ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,
>
and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.
>
great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.
>
hope i was a big help!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:43:44 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: in memory of Beat-L archive 95,
blues of bob dylan and robert
creeley
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>
Mime-Version:
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all these people that
you mentioned
yes i know them
they're quite lame
i had to rearrange
their faces
and give them all another
name
right now i can't read
too good
don't send me no more
letters no
not unless you mail
them from
desolation row -- bob
dylan
>
GET BEAT-L LOG9505 BEAT-L
File
"BEAT-L LOG9505" is not yet available.
>
GET BEAT-L LOG9506 BEAT-L
File
"BEAT-L LOG9506" is not yet available.
>
GET BEAT-L LOG9509 BEAT-L
File
"BEAT-L LOG9509" is not yet available.
>
GET BEAT-L LOG9508 BEAT-L
File
"BEAT-L LOG9508" is not yet available.
>
GET BEAT-L LOG9510 BEAT-L
File
"BEAT-L LOG9510" is not yet available.
>
GET BEAT-L LOG9511 BEAT-L
File
"BEAT-L LOG9511" is not yet available.
>
GET BEAT-L LOG9512 BEAT-L
File
"BEAT-L LOG9512" is not yet available.
they are taking all my letters, and they
put them into fire.
i see
the flames, etc.
but do not care, etc.
they burn everything i
have, or what little
i have. i dont' care,
etc.
--robert creeley
i
remain speechless --rinaldo rasa
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:45:11 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
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, One
day some professor offer us as a resource for his students, and
then he
got pissed when i wasn't sweet , the student asked very general
questions
and and by that any sensible answer would be vague and
general.
Now i can get my teeth into a good question but general
questions
make me bilous. but i reaaly don't
think you should assume i
will be
sweet. i will make fun of some one,
especially someone that
hasn't
hit the library at all. I have often had people refer to me as an
excellant
resource for a variety of things including hot sex, a place to
stay,
building material but i rebel when a government paid teacher gives
me
away. Now if i get a tee shirt or a signed book i can be sweet but
other
than that i am pretty comfortable being a bitch, and if necessary
an
emascalating bitch. Of course that is
not sweet. I do love sweet
guys. I
think men aught to be sweet. They look good and sound good in
their
mentor patronizing role. I look better as a hard mouthed bitch
with an
attitude. love
patricia
Eric
Craig Sapp wrote:
>
>
hello Beatlist!
>
>
not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean.
every
> now and
>
then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for school,
> and somebody
>
else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy
ass,
> do the work
>
yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information,
but
i
> peronally
> do
not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine students
> might wanna
>
use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books they
> want some
>
"real live" perspectives.
>
>
whatever.
>
Eric S.
> On
Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis
>
<kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:
>
>
> running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?
>
> i'll help.
>
> junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and
>
> started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because
>
> he was so busy getting drunk and high.
>
> all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to
>
> class.
>
> one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a
>
> cockroach and started talking to him.
>
> it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,
>
> and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.
>
> great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.
>
> hope i was a big help!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:55:19 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: I dedicate myself.
Somewhere
in teh jumble that is teh digest form of teh beat-l mailing list,
someone
wrote about JOhnSampas dedicating newly-publsihed Kerouac works teh
way he
thought Jack would have. Did Jack
dedicate his works that were
publsihed
while he was alive? Who were some of
the folks he dedicated his
books
to, if he did dedicate? I find this
intersting, knowing my own
reasosn
for dedicating stories I write to people.
Toodles...
Diane.
(H)
--
I
should have loved a thunderbird instead. --Sylvia Plath
Diane
M. Homza ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:06:19 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: beat is as beat does.
in
reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote something
to the
effect of that not being very beat. but
from what i remember of OTR,
they
stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more beat
than
stealing Kerouac books? I'm not
_condoning_ stealing his books, but
it
doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.
Diane. (one of the other ones)
--
I
should have loved a thunderbird instead. --Sylvia Plath
Diane
M. Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:10:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: Another Poema
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thought I'd send another poem at the end
of a long and spiteful week.
peace be upon you all
Sean D. Young
ps (thanks Marie and Rinaldo for yr
poems.)
Question: What's the most important thing
for a poet to remember?
Answer: "Not to hurt anyone"
- Gregory Corso @
Naropa workshop 7/94
------------------------------------------------------------------
Poem:
------------------------------------------------------------------
SUBLIMATION
Teething in the wreckage
in relation to - stranger music
-- tough bars with you in them
loosening my scarf -
to a new meaning
for new skin
in the emperor's clothes
from the bunker
to the avenue's bosom
just then - words -
"This is true -
you are not afraid"
it is this close
open palm
on spinal shutters
to the walk home - it is
longer in solitude
yet blissed
late summer
after storm
the walk IS long
the air of the lake
sweet with brine and
wet grass
the voice is changing
WE becomes I
I becomes YOU
it is this close
the air is lifting
the orange clouds
the drums call from
boyhood
-when all there was
-was music
in the dawn
and the twitch
of feeling
"I am Loved"
(gone?)
Until now
here - the feeling
is deep opening
subtle and awake
and the visage
before me and
the Laundromat
on L street and 6th
is grace -
a humble caress -
that man walking
down the street
desolate -
is loved -
does he know it?
"Look up"
I could say
but I offer a sigh -
We walk our own way
to the castle
and besides
the real destination is within -
between two people
it is a mutual diving
for the glistening stone
inside
a clear bell
to silence
the cacophony
- no other voices here -
it
is the blood
on the lips
it is the body
between the teeth
it is the real work
of the opening palm
it is the kneeling
it is the embrace
it is the kiss
it is the healing
Leave the wreckage
it is at rest
with me
here, now
we dine at the splendid table
this is
the real story afterall
off of the page
through the senses
from the teething
to the walk home.
------------------------------------
-------- Sean D. Young 7/17/96
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:14:27 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
01:23 PM 10/24/97 +0000, Marie Countryman wrote:
>WHO
IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY
>CD
PLAYER???
Hmm,
good question. Bob starts his US fall
tour this
evening
in Starkville, MS, and here's to the man introducing
some of
his new material!!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:16:14 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill Morgan's book: First Printing
sold out
Dear
Diane;
Wow,
you've said such great things it will be hard to live up to the praise.
Thanks for the kind words, it is certainly
nice of you to say them.
Yours,
Bill
Morgan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:19:14 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
ROFLMAO!!!!!
Patty you're too much!!!
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Patricia Elliott
Sent: Friday, October 24, 1997 1:45 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
, One
day some professor offer us as a resource for his students, and
then he
got pissed when i wasn't sweet , the student asked very general
questions
and and by that any sensible answer would be vague and
general.
Now i can get my teeth into a good question but general
questions
make me bilous. but i reaaly don't
think you should assume i
will be
sweet. i will make fun of some one,
especially someone that
hasn't
hit the library at all. I have often had people refer to me as an
excellant
resource for a variety of things including hot sex, a place to
stay,
building material but i rebel when a government paid teacher gives
me
away. Now if i get a tee shirt or a signed book i can be sweet but
other
than that i am pretty comfortable being a bitch, and if necessary
an
emascalating bitch. Of course that is
not sweet. I do love sweet
guys. I
think men aught to be sweet. They look good and sound good in
their
mentor patronizing role. I look better as a hard mouthed bitch
with an
attitude. love
patricia
Eric
Craig Sapp wrote:
>
>
hello Beatlist!
>
>
not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean.
every
> now and
>
then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for
school,
> and somebody
>
else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy
ass,
> do the work
>
yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information,
but
i
> peronally
> do
not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine
students
> might wanna
>
use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books
they
> want some
>
"real live" perspectives.
>
>
whatever.
>
Eric S.
> On
Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis
>
<kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:
>
>
> running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?
>
> i'll help.
>
> junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and
>
> started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because
>
> he was so busy getting drunk and high.
>
> all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to
>
> class.
>
> one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a
>
> cockroach and started talking to him.
>
> it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,
> >
and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.
>
> great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.
>
> hope i was a big help!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:05:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
patty-
you hit the nail on the head.
obviously,
our student in need hadn't made an effort to even read the
book,
and i would guess that she found the beat list and subscribed for
the
sole purpose of trying to get some quick easy info she could use
verbatim
in her paper.
if said
paper was due this week, i'm sure she has long since forgotten
this
list.
now, on
the other hand, had she read the book, and offered some insight-
anything
at all, such as hey, this cut-up stuff is interesting. can
anybody
give me any info on how he started using it, etc etc, i would
have
been more than happy to give an opinion.
but as
it turned out, she sounded clueless on the subject, and therefore
i had
no choice but to be a smartass about it.
so if
our student in need is still on the list- defend yourself! prove to
us that
you weren't just using us!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:10:51 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@SARCOS.COM>
Subject: Re: beat is as beat does.
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Theft
is very Beat. I think the phenomenon is
that it 's just happening
to
Kerouac and friends.
It
seems to me that if JK's books are getting lifted, then Danielle
Steele
and Michael Crichton ought to be flying off the shelves. I bet
you'll
never have to look for them behind the counter.
-E
Diane
M. Homza wrote:
> in
reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote
>
something
> to
the effect of that not being very beat.
but from what i remember
> of
OTR,
>
they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more
>
beat
>
than stealing Kerouac books? I'm not
_condoning_ stealing his books,
>
but
> it
doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.
>
>
Diane. (one of the other ones)
>
> --
> I
should have loved a thunderbird instead. --Sylvia
>
Plath
>
>
Diane M. Homza
>
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:30:19 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)"
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: return of the Barnes and Nobel beatnik.
Mime-Version:
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hey
folks,
i am glad to see that some of the B+N
stores aren't succumbing to
fascism
in regards to not shelving beat books. The stores that do will be
missing
out. I convinced my manager to order some copies of Burroughs'
"The
Adding Machine." These essays are great and this is one of my fav
top 3
books by Bill. The book is right next to J.G. Ballards' book of
essays
which include some praise for Bill. Two great literary giants next
to one
another :) One surprise to come in without me ordering was a
collection
of Gary Snyder prose.
The only books that have been getting
stolen are the new Anne
Rice
"Violin" and Tupac Shakar's tribute photobook. Personally i'd be
glad if
more beat books were stolen only because people would be breaking
the law
and going out of their way to grab some good stuff.
COMMERCIALISM ALERT: why hasn't anyone
printed a beat generation
calender,
using some of Allen's photos? Or perhaps a small desk calender
with a
quote from a beat source for each day?
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:30:40 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat is as beat does.
Mime-Version:
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At
04:10 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Theft
is very Beat. I think the phenomenon is
that it 's just happening
>to
Kerouac and friends.
>
Please
let people know when you will be gone from your house for a long
period
of time and where you keep your valuables.
Also please the leave the
door
open.
And
also, your car. Please leave the keys
in it and the door unlocked for
fellow
beatniks to steal.
>It
seems to me that if JK's books are getting lifted, then Danielle
>Steele
and Michael Crichton ought to be flying off the shelves. I bet
>you'll
never have to look for them behind the counter.
>
>-E
>
>
>
>
>Diane
M. Homza wrote:
>
>>
in reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote
>>
something
>>
to the effect of that not being very beat.
but from what i remember
>>
of OTR,
>>
they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more
>>
beat
>>
than stealing Kerouac books? I'm not
_condoning_ stealing his books,
>>
but
>>
it doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.
>>
>>
Diane. (one of the other ones)
>>
>>
--
>>
I should have loved a thunderbird instead. --Sylvia
>>
Plath
>>
>>
Diane M. Homza
>>
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:38:07 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
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At
04:55 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Diane Homza wrote:
>Somewhere
in teh jumble that is teh digest form of teh beat-l mailing list,
>someone
wrote about JOhnSampas dedicating newly-publsihed Kerouac works teh
>way
he thought Jack would have. Did Jack
dedicate his works that were
>publsihed
while he was alive? Who were some of
the folks he dedicated his
>books
to, if he did dedicate? I find this
intersting, knowing my own
>reasosn
for dedicating stories I write to people.
>
>Toodles...
>
>Diane.
(H)
>
Hi,
Diane, Oct 24, 1997
I'm going to answer this really fast,
from memory, since I'm so busy.
Among people Jack dedicated books to
were the Chinese poet Han Shan,
his
Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife
Stella
Sampas.
John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED
LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME
OF THE
DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him
in his
fight against Jan Kerouac.
Best, Gerry Nicosia
P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a
Czech name? (I'm half.)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:01:06 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: t-shirts
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Oct 24, 1997
Hello!
Several of you have indicated interest
in ordering t-shirts, but
never
sent the confirmation I asked. I am
only holding t-shirts for those
who
have confirmed that they are sending check.
I am however holding the
last
KEROUAC ON THE ROAD for Marlene awaiting her confirmation, soon, please!
The last ON THE ROAD is spoken for
even if Marlene lets her
reservation
go.
There are, however, still a few
Kerouac and Kerouac (Jack and Jan)
t's
that have not been reserved. SO if
you're one of those who were
interested,
suggest you confirm soon!
THANKS. --Gerry Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:47:42 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
Mime-Version:
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>>
>Hi,
Diane, Oct 24, 1997
> I'm going to answer this really fast,
from memory, since I'm so busy.
> Among people Jack dedicated books to
were the Chinese poet Han Shan,
>his
Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife
>Stella
Sampas.
> John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED
LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME
>OF
THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him
>in
his fight against Jan Kerouac.
> Best, Gerry Nicosia
> P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a
Czech name? (I'm half.)
> I
thought it was "presumably" because Some of the Dharma began as notes
to
Allen
Ginsberg about Buddhism...does it not make sense to dedicate the whole
bloody
book to him?
From a letter to Allen Ginsberg from
Kerouac dated "early May 1954":
"for your beginning studies of
Buddhism, you must listen to me carefully
and
implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching the Formulas of Objective
Correlation
on a blackboard in Princeton."
And later...
"Now Allen, as Neal or Carolyn can
tell you, last February I typed up a
100-page
account of Buddhism for you, gleaned from my notes, and you will
see
proof of that in sevral allusions....I will send it importantly stamped,
it's
the only copy, we must take special care with it right? "Some of the
Dharma"
I called it,and it was intended for you to read in the selva [sic]."
If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
negator
of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
else's
concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
dedications.
Who should have it been dedicated to...you?
Sincerely, Paul of
THe
Kerouac Quarterly...
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:36:47 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
In-Reply-To:
<199710242238.PAA29730@iceland.it.earthlink.net>
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On Fri,
24 Oct 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:
> John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED
LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME
> OF
THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him
> in
his fight against Jan Kerouac.
Well,
the book did start out as notes on Buddhism for Ginsberg, so he's
not so
far off in dedicating it as such. Its
interesting how easy it is
to see
this early on in the book. I did a
review of it this week for my
Religion
in America class focusing on it as a religious text (or text on
religion
depending on your point of view). A lot
of it, toward the
beginning,
is just that. Notes and quotes on
Buddhist texts Kerouac was
reading. Bibliogrphies included! He makes comments on them and, in quite
a few
points, its easy to interpret them as specifically for Ginsberg. As
it
progresses he gets farther away from that and his comments are more
addressed
to whomever + Ginsberg. I'd like to get
some more impressions
from
people if anyone happens to have waded through it by now. I think it
would
make a great insert between Dharma Bums and Desolation Angels. Or
better,
to begin 2/3 of the way through Dharma Bums
and read through most
of Book
One of Desolation Angels. Its a great
way to get into Kerouac's
head
during a specific period of his life.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19971024234742.006ac2a0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version:
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>
> If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
>
negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
>
else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
>
dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you? Sincerely, Paul
Now,
this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've
been
hearing come about. You were doing just
fine until you hit this
paragraph. In fact I had just finished sending off a
post that said much
the
same thing (I read it in the introduction as well). If you really
want to
prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you
can do
so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about
it.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:44:10 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19971024234742.006ac2a0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version:
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> If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
>
negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
>
else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
>
dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you? Sincerely, Paul
Now,
this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've
been
hearing come about. You were doing just
fine until you hit this
paragraph. In fact I had just finished sending off a post that said much
the
same thing (I read it in the introduction as well). If you really
want to
prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you
can do
so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about
it.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:45:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: sorry
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Sorry
that got sent twice, my mail locked up and went buggy while sending
it.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:55:17 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: First_Name Last_Name
<Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: jack
i don't
know
maybe
since i'm younger i can look at all the bitching and complaining lately
with a
certain degree of humor
everyone
(as an overgeneralization) is being Absurd
you
think if we took the legality of this whole affair, maybe resolve our
puny
little differences.........
and
focus on Jack, only Jack
not who
we think Jack is.....or what we think Jack would want....or what we
think
should become of the legacy of Jack......
pay
more attention to his words(which, in some cases, it seems like some of
you may
do to much)
jack is
dead.......we as a collective has a fascination with dead
idols........but
we must learn when to stop intruding upon their lives (i.e.
- this
fascination with Jack's "last letter")........
if i
were a dead icon, i'd be pissed over such infantile arguing, no matter
how
much it's in the name of jack or his estate or literature or any
reason.....
but i
am young and immature and uninformed and ignorant and this is all
opinion
continue
to kick up the dust in the sandbox......
i'll
just read jack and enjoy
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:05:54 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!/I hate it when
that happens
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Bob
Lewis wrote:
<snip>
and therefore i had no choice but to be a smartass about it.
<snip>
Bob:
I hate
it when that happens. :-)
I
missed the first post. But I read your
post just the way you say
here. I LOL when I read it and thought, well, if
someone is paying
attention
they will see that we are not here to do their work for them.
But, I
hate it when someone takes away my options.
Kinda like Gregory
Peck in
the The Last Gunfighter, or Brownsville Girl.
Hey Diane, if you
missed
Brownsville Girl by Sam Shepard and Bob Dylan, you ought to pick
up
Greatest Hits III by Dylan and check that out.
It is a masterpiece,
"The
only thing we knew for certain about Henry Porter is that his name
wasn't
Henry Porter" And "You always
said that people don't do what
they
believe in, they just do what' s most convienent and later on they
repent." Those are paraphrases. Oh well, I have wandered far afield.
You go
Bob.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:14:05 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jonathan Pickle
<jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>
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Reading
all these posts about people stealing Kerouac books. It reminds me
of an
English teacher I had in High school who had her copy stolen out of
her room. We talked that Kerouac wasn't as well known
where we were from -
a small
town in central Texas. The fact that
someone had heard of Jack was
amazing. Then I told her that the st. could have just
as easily taken a
book by
Frost or somone else more known.
Instead they took OTR. I looked
at her
and said "Perhaps it's not the worst thing that could have happened,
at
least somebody out there will be reading Jack." I left the room
afterwards
and envisioned a great society that passed out free copies of
OTR to
all the youth of America. I smiled and
went home to read _The
Dharma
Bums_.
Jon
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:39:09 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
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At
07:44 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
>>
negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
>>
else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
>>
dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you? Sincerely, Paul
>
>Now,
this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've
>been
hearing come about. You were doing just
fine until you hit this
>paragraph. In fact I had just finished sending off a post that said much
>the
same thing (I read it in the introduction as well). If you really
>want
to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you
>can
do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about
>it.
I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at
the end of his letter it means
nothing.
Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through
the
offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like
being
stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour. Verily, I have no
apprehension
for publicly addressing one who slanders me in public. There
are
some who say I should be more careful not to alienate those who are in
the
so-called "Anti-Estate" camp so that they may not buy my quarterly.
If
that is
their choice then so be it...the contents of The Kerouac Quarterly
and
those who contribute to it are either not aware, concerned, or care
about
the kind of propaganda that passes for commentary here on the Beat-L.
They
are only devoted to the serious scholarly study of Jack Kerouac and his
works.
The Kerouac Quarterly will be around for a long time and will be a
place
committed solely to the preservation of Kerouac scholarship. Surely,
the
chosen few who remain on the "other" side will not make or break such
a
commitment
from myself and others who care to see such a journal be founded.
I have
offered the journal as a sample copy for those who doubt my veracity,
until
then, expect to see such negative and untrue comments emitted from the
"other"
side be attended to with all haste. Simply, Paul of The Kerouac
Quarterly....
For those who would like a sample
copy go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
UPDATED TODAY!!!!
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:27:23 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>Hi,
Diane, Oct 24, 1997
>> I'm going to answer this really fast,
from memory, since I'm so busy.
>> Among people Jack dedicated books to
were the Chinese poet Han Shan,
>>his
Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife
>>Stella
Sampas.
>> John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED
LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME
>>OF
THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him
>>in
his fight against Jan Kerouac.
>> Best, Gerry Nicosia
>> P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a
Czech name? (I'm half.)
>
>>
I thought it was "presumably" because Some of the Dharma began as
notes to
>Allen
Ginsberg about Buddhism...does it not make sense to dedicate the whole
>bloody
book to him?
> From a letter to Allen Ginsberg from
Kerouac dated "early May 1954":
>
> "for your beginning studies of
Buddhism, you must listen to me carefully
>and
implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching the Formulas of Objective
>Correlation
on a blackboard in Princeton."
>
> And later...
>
> "Now Allen, as Neal or Carolyn can
tell you, last February I typed up a
>100-page
account of Buddhism for you, gleaned from my notes, and you will
>see
proof of that in sevral
Shouldn't
there be a [sic] here? (Ie sic =
spelling incorrect in the original)
>allusions....I
will send it importantly stamped,
>it's
the only copy, we must take special care with it right? "Some of the
>Dharma"
I called it,and it was intended for you to read in the selva [sic]."
And why
a sic here? Do you know what selva
means? It means jungle.
If you
were a scholar you'd know where Ginsberg was when Kerouac penned this
letter
to him.
Smiley
faces and all that. It is hard to
convet sarcasm with electrons
hitting
phosphor.
Persoanlly
when I saw the dedication in the new books it confused me a
little. I think that they should be left out really.
Don't
be so defensive. It is not a big deal
one way or the other.
>
> If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
>negator
of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
>else's
concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
>dedications.
Who should have it been dedicated to...you?
Sincerely, Paul of
>THe
Kerouac Quarterly...
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:28:56 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
> If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
>negator
of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
>else's
concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
>dedications.
Who should have it been dedicated to...you?
Sincerely, Paul of
>THe
Kerouac Quarterly...
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
Dear
Mr. Maher-- Oct 24, 1997
I am a scholar, sir, and my
credentials are a lot more impressive
than
yours.
I will do as Mr. Gargan requested and
ignore your abuse.
But I will address an important point,
which you miss. THE POINT
IS,
JACK KEROUAC DID NOT DEDICATE THAT BOOK TO ALLEN GINSBERG. It was
presumptuous
and arrogant of Mr. Sampas to dedicate the book for him. There
was no
need for a dedication if Jack Kerouac did not himself see such a
need. And by the way, Kerouac did offer the book
for publication in his
lifetime,
so it wasn't just a "notebook" that Sampas happened to find.
Since
Mr. Sampas chose to add a dedication, contrary to what Jack Kerouac
intended,
I felt I had a right to speculate about his motives. Jack also
lectured
Neal and Carolyn Cassady about Buddhism and tried to convert both
of
them, and so an equal case could be made for dedicating the book to them.
But why invent a dedication that
Kerouac himself did not want?
Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:31:10 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Paul, what is this all about
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Paul:
You
write to Gerry:
"Who
should have it been dedicated to...you?
Sincerely, Paul of
THe
Kerouac Quarterly..."
We
don't need this from Gerry and we don't need it from you. I think
you
just proved Gerry's point. I for one
would appreciate it if you
would
refain from personal attacks on Gerry on the list. He said
nothing
to you in the post. Let it go, or send
it back channel.
Period.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:38:31 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
08:39 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:
> I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at
the end of his letter it means
>nothing.
Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through
>the
offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like
>being
stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour.
Wow!!!
This
actually makes me laugh it is quite over the top. Like a Monty Python
sketch.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:45:18 EDT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DawnDR <DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: sigh
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Dear
MC:
Let's
be QUITE accurate when laying out that quote --- considering the target.
I
believe it goes, "You, Sir, are an ass!"
Concurrence
is implied.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:51 -0500
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: my apologies, bob
Comments:
To: M84M79@aol.com
MIME-Version:
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M84M79@aol.com
wrote:
>
>
Cathy and fellow listers,
>
well, i'll intoduce myself: Marlene, college student in south Florida. I
>
started my interest with the beats after I saw "The last time I committed
>
Suicicde" last spring. So far I've only cracked the surface with what i've
>
read, but I haven't stopped yet. I'm a poet and love having this forum to be
>
able to share my work, even though i've only posted a piece once. I've been
>
touched and inspired by the poetry posted and wonder if any of you are
>
published poets, Rinaldo? Marie? Well thats me in fifty words or less. I hope
>
that i will soon make friends on the list and continue to share the
>
litereature that we love. Thankyou.
> ~~Marlene
Marlene--
i don't know if you read bob's post from last nights digest
yet or
not, but he finally agreed with me in that if we want to have a
productive
conversation, we have to know whom we are speaking to. I
sincerely
thank you for taking the time to say hey.
so what all have
you
read yet? my recommendations, if you have not read them yet, is "go"
by john
clellon holmes, and 'dharma bums' and 'the subterraneans' by
jack
kerouac, and 'the first third' by neal cassady. they will give you
an
excellent history on some of the most important figures of the beat
generation. I have found, however, that different people
lean towards
different
types within the beat category, and i personally need to read
and/or
learn a lot more about burroughs. i've
concentrated on the
kerouac
angle for many many years, and have recently been reading more
on
ginsberg. if you haven't read 'dharma
lion' (ginsberg) please do.
it's a
huge book, but well worth the time.
to tell
you a little more about me--i'm 28, work in a photography store,
and i
take photos of musicians and my friends as a hobby. I also write
poetry,
trying hard to assemble the whole mass into publishable form.
so if
anyone is interested in critiquing a few pieces for me, let me
know.
cw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:54:32 -0500
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: re; shut up!
MIME-Version:
1.0
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>
Subject:
> shut up!
> Date:
> Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:41:40 -0400
> From:
> Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
>
>
>
Just shut up! Shut up! Arrrrrrgh! This is incredibly aggravating. What
>
started as contested points, became an arguement, then bickering, then an
>
all out bitch slap. The the dust
settled (or paused) for a day or so now
>
now an arguement about the arguement.
Shut up! Let it drop! Move on!
>
You people are driving me feakin' bananas!
Yah-yah-yah-yah! Silence
>
yourselves! The only problem anyone has
is that it never stops and gets
>
nasty. Just don't let it get nasty, and
don't perpetuate it. So, STOP!
>
DAMMIT! This is getting silly.
>
alex,
i'm sorry. i laughed when i read
this. it reminded me so much of
myself
when all of my friends get in an argument over something stupid.
cw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:02:23 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Richard Wallner's Farewell
Mime-Version:
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At
11:33 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:
>Ive
seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on
>against
me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about
>this
list and its integrity. I just wanted
Bill Gargan to say he
>understood
my concerns.
>
>So
now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about. I'll miss being
>on
this list. But nobody here wants to
give me or my motives the benefit
>of
the doubt. Nobody wants to accept that
I had good intentions.
I feel compelled to speak a few words
for Mr. Wallner. I have held
my
tongue now for a couple of days as Richard got himself caught in a heavy
crossfire
of attacks, as I myself have been in the past.
I did not want to
jump in
and be accused of promoting further flame wars.
But Mr. Wallner should not have to
leave the list, and I for one do
believe
his intentions were good.
I also want to state at the start that
IN NO WAY DO I WISH TO ATTACK
MR.
GARGAN. I have found him to be in
general a fair-minded man who appears
to care
deeply about Beat literature. I also
admit that I put him in a
tough
position by asking for protection against the kind of defamation of
character
that was being practiced against me here (and against the kind of
invasion
of privacy that went on last May, with Rod Anstee printing my
private
letters to him, not even email, but letters that were typed and
signed
to him as private correspondence).
My initial feeling was that anyone on
the Beat-List should be
protected
against character assassination and/or invasion of privacy. But
as time
went on, I came to see that that sort of request puts Mr. Gargan in
the
untenable position of censor or moderator.
There are 4 alternatives to
the
person thus being defamed: 1) attack back in a similar "dirty"
fashion;
2)
leave the list; 3) sue the list and shut it down; 4) ignore the abuse,
slander,
etc. I have tried 1, at least to the
extent of throwing a few
slightly
below-the-belt punches myself--it did no good.
For one thing,
reinforcements
were simply brought in, so that I was boxing with four
opponents
at the same time, in which case even below-the-belt punches don't
help
much. I tried 2, and that FAILED TO
PREVENT THE KIND OF ONE-SIDEDNESS
I was
opposing--it only enhanced the bias in favor of Mr. Sampas. I never
threatened
to sue the list, but I told Bill I was being pushed to a point
where I
would have to take such an approach, if my private correspondence
kept
getting posted as if it were yesterday's newspaper. And I clearly told
him I
DID NOT WANT TO BE IN THAT POSITION--to have to close down a list to
protect
my privacy--ESPECIALLY WHEN THE LIST IS AS WONDERFUL AND VALUABLE AS
BEAT-L. I pleaded with him to act BEFORE WE REACHED
THAT POINT. He did.
So that
leaves 4, which really seems the only alternative that "works."
I'll
give it my best shot for a while.
But back to Mr. Wallner, and the
supposed attack on Mr. Gargan. Mr.
Wallner
was, to a large extent, simply echoing my own complaint about being
deprived
of the right of self-defense. I DO NOT
THINK MR. GARGAN IS AN
UNFAIR
MAN, BUT I DO THINK HE MADE A BAD CALL.
And I told him so. (I've
played
baseball all my life, and the right to question the ump is a sacred
one,
although admittedly it can get you kicked out.)
My complaint was based on the fact
that Messieurs Maher, Hemenway,
et al.
had been promoting Mr. Sampas and Mr. Sampas's events for several
months
while I was off the Beat-List. I knew
about their posts, but I did
not
jump in to stop them or attack them. I
let them have their right of
free
speech. (And I know Mr. Hemenway is
about to tell me that Kerouac Week
is not
a Sampas-sponsored event, but the names of John Sampas and Stella
Sampas
are on several pieces of their promotional advertising; and there is
no
other way to explain no OFFICIAL mention of the passing of Jan Kerouac,
whose
ashes were buried a few miles from Lowell only four months earlier;
especially
since they ignored her death the previous year too; and yet they
went
out of their way to honor Allen Ginsberg's death this year.)
I do not bring all this stuff up to
start the Estate debate again,
but
simply to point out that I was being extremely patient in letting the
other
side talk its talk. But two hours, TWO
HOURS(!), after I reappeared
(on
October 15) to talk about my legal victory in Florida, Maher was posting
a
denunciation, followed by Chaput, followed by Gyenis, followed by
Hemenway. I was trying to get Mr. Gargan to
ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DISCREPANCY,
before
he simply tossed the label "mud slinger" or "brawler" on
me, as
several
of you have done. I do not want brawls,
and I do not want
mudslinging. But when I show extreme patience with the
other side's
pro-Sampas
postings, for months on end, I think earn the right to have
similar
patience and deference shown to me.
I think we have to establish a
difference between the right to
"sling
mud" and the right to defend oneself.
And I think that was at the
bottom
of Mr. Wallner's posts for the past several days.
That is all I am going to say.
Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:10:45 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600
from <syoung@DSW.COM>
On Fri,
24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600 Sean Young said:
> Marie,
>
> same plane.
> dylan CD all around.
> alternating with Harry Smith's folk
anthology.
>
> many voices. lost times
>
> AH
>
> SDY
>
>
>______________________________
Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject:
i'm beginning to hear voices..
>Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
>Date: 10/24/97 1:23 PM
>
>
>...and
there's no one around...
>WHO
IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???
>
>thank
the gods and goddesses:
>all
and whoever.
>
>the
best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on
>the
tracks.
>i'm
in dylan heaven....
>mc
Sean, can you post specifics on Harry Smith's
anthology?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:30:19 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
05:28 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At
07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
>>negator
of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
>>else's
concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
>>dedications.
Who should have it been dedicated to...you?
Sincerely, Paul of
>>THe
Kerouac Quarterly...
>>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>Dear
Mr. Maher-- Oct 24, 1997
> I am a scholar, sir, and my
credentials are a lot more impressive
>than
yours.
> I will do as Mr. Gargan requested and
ignore your abuse.
> But I will address an important point,
which you miss. THE POINT
>IS,
JACK KEROUAC DID NOT DEDICATE THAT BOOK TO ALLEN GINSBERG. It was
>presumptuous
and arrogant of Mr. Sampas to dedicate the book for him. There
>was
no need for a dedication if Jack Kerouac did not himself see such a
>need. And by the way, Kerouac did offer the book
for publication in his
>lifetime,
so it wasn't just a "notebook" that Sampas happened to find.
>Since
Mr. Sampas chose to add a dedication, contrary to what Jack Kerouac
>intended,
I felt I had a right to speculate about his motives. Jack also
>lectured
Neal and Carolyn Cassady about Buddhism and tried to convert both
>of
them, and so an equal case could be made for dedicating the book to them.
> But why invent a dedication that
Kerouac himself did not want?
> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
>As
the executor, I believe he has the authority to do so...and that is all
we have
to know. Why speculate? I hope your credentials are a lot more
impressive
than mine since you are older than me. But, to my credentials,
besides
stealing library books for which I am eternally grateful in the
respect
that the outcome of that crime changed me for the better. I have
published
two essays on Kerouac in scholarly journals, one is The
Commonwealth
Review of Massachusetts and the other,The Journal of American
Studies
(Literature). I have written and completed a first draft of a
five-hundred
and seven page biography on Kerouac and Lowell, I have just
finished
co-editing a textbook entitled,"Emerging American Values", I have
written
four novels which I have yet to publish, two quarterlies, and
fifty-eight
oil paintings and several uncounted drawings and assorted mixed
media.
Perhaps the undercurrents of my criminal mentality contributed to the
Dionysian
frenzy of my productivity, perhaps I can encourage my egoism as
the
muse of my creativity, at least I don't try to deny or conceal my acts
of
creation. Thus my strength and my strategy, patterned on a single
landscape
from which my roots draw their sap.
Likewise
my thought,my mind: so wildly concentrated upon itself, a block of
diamond
whose multiple facets are so brilliantly shimmering that the reality
surrounding
it is disconcerted, deceived, snared, decoyed. What can you do
to
convince me otherwise that you are my equal? Paul....
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:13:14 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gerald Nicosia
<gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Nobody But Mr. Sampas
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Oct 24,1997
Dear
Beat-L Readers,
In all the brouhaha and flame wars of
the past few days, a line in
one of
Mr. Maher's long posts may have slipped past you. It nearly slipped
past
me.
The line, in his post of 10/22, was:
"He [Mr. Sampas] has every
letter
from the MEMORY BABE collection that was penned by and to Jack Kerouac."
Now listen to that, will you?
Do you know what that means?
It means, while Mr. Sampas is going
over to the MEMORY BABE
collection,
which I put at U Mass, Lowell, and WHILE HE IS TELLING THE
LIBRARIAN
TO SHUT THE COLLECTION TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, he is at the same
time
demanding that the librarian let him copy all 2,000 Kerouac letters (in
xerox)
that I put in that collection.
In other words, Mr. Sampas wants the
right to all the information I
have in
the MEMORY BABE collection, and he ALREADY HAS IT! But at the same
time,
he would deny the same privilege, and the same information, to every
one of
you.
In my book, they used to call that
selfish. A case could also be
made
for hypocritical.
Nobody but Mr. Sampas is worthy of
reading those 2,000 Jack Kerouac
letters,
evidently.
That deeply troubles me.
Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:12:04 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:22:07 -0400
from
<ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Hope my
suggestions weren't seen as hostile. I
think students sometimes expect
more help from a list like this they can
really get. Sure, we can suggest rea
dings
but I don't think we're going to be able to discuss a topic sufficiently
to help
an undergraduate or high school student write a paper without reading t
he text
or consulting basic resources. If it's
a matter of answering a specifi
c
question, that's a different story.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:34:32 -0400
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
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At
05:38 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At
08:39 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:
>
>> I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at
the end of his letter it means
>>nothing.
Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through
>>the
offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like
>>being
stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour.
>
>Wow!!!
>
>
>This
actually makes me laugh it is quite over the top. Like a Monty Python
>sketch.
>Thanks
for being able to discenr the subtelties and nuances of my humor.
Most
don't seem to possess a sense of humor on this list. they are
so.....serious.
I think
we should have a Gerry Nicosia Roast. I love him, he's a warm and
loving
guy. I want to be his friend. I want to be his good friend. I wish he
would
be my friend. I wonder if he'd sign my copy of Memory Babe? Paul of
...you
know.
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:17:25 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Cut up Kerouac
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I have
reached back onto my book shelf. I have
taken a book from
Kerouac
portion without reading the title first.
It is Book of Dreams.
I am
opening it randomly. The page 121 and
the dream begins thusly:
"WRITING
DREAMS, TAKE NOTE OF THE WAY THE DREAMING MIND CREATES
THE
ANNALS OF JACK KEROUAC--Annals indeed--anal ones--the Mind wished
and
dream'd itself a spate of San Jose where I'm taken to the parking
lot of
work at a location I hadn't daydreamed, on that road leading
North
from Santa Clara ... but the Mind loses
control of the scene in a
toilet
across the street from Cody's house and Cody and I are taking
craps
side by side in a double crapper, Cody is talking about an actor
as I
wipe myself with paper, he says "But you know he's queer, he blows
the
Kings" and I have my part on my lap while wiping myself, it's naked,
and at
the mention of these erotic matters I can feel the swelling so I
hurry
to wipe up ere it's a pole but get all tangled in the wiping and
get
some crap in my mouth, a piece, of some reason with paper and
reaching
in and pieces that get stuck and logics about teeth ...."
That is
different. I will try another in a moment.
Another random page,
like
cut up Kerouac. Maybe this will change the way the wind blows.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:38:04 -0400
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Richard Wallner's Farewell
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At
06:02 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At
11:33 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:
>>Ive
seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on
>>against
me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about
>>this
list and its integrity. I just wanted
Bill Gargan to say he
>>understood
my concerns.
>>
>>So
now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about. I'll miss being
>>on
this list. But nobody here wants to
give me or my motives the benefit
>>of
the doubt. Nobody wants to accept that
I had good intentions.
>
> I feel compelled to speak a few words
for Mr. Wallner. I have held
>my
tongue now for a couple of days as Richard got himself caught in a heavy
>crossfire
of attacks, as I myself have been in the past.
I did not want to
>jump
in and be accused of promoting further flame wars.
> But Mr. Wallner should not have to
leave the list, and I for one do
>believe
his intentions were good.
> I also want to state at the start that
IN NO WAY DO I WISH TO ATTACK
>MR.
GARGAN. I have found him to be in
general a fair-minded man who appears
>to
care deeply about Beat literature. I
also admit that I put him in a
>tough
position by asking for protection against the kind of defamation of
>character
that was being practiced against me here (and against the kind of
>invasion
of privacy that went on last May, with Rod Anstee printing my
>private
letters to him, not even email, but letters that were typed and
>signed
to him as private correspondence).
> My initial feeling was that anyone on
the Beat-List should be
>protected
against character assassination and/or invasion of privacy. But
>as
time went on, I came to see that that sort of request puts Mr. Gargan in
>the
untenable position of censor or moderator.
There are 4 alternatives to
>the
person thus being defamed: 1) attack back in a similar "dirty"
fashion;
>2)
leave the list; 3) sue the list and shut it down; 4) ignore the abuse,
>slander,
etc. I have tried 1, at least to the
extent of throwing a few
>slightly
below-the-belt punches myself--it did no good.
For one thing,
>reinforcements
were simply brought in, so that I was boxing with four
>opponents
at the same time, in which case even below-the-belt punches don't
>help
much. I tried 2, and that FAILED TO
PREVENT THE KIND OF ONE-SIDEDNESS
>I
was opposing--it only enhanced the bias in favor of Mr. Sampas. I never
>threatened
to sue the list, but I told Bill I was being pushed to a point
>where
I would have to take such an approach, if my private correspondence
>kept
getting posted as if it were yesterday's newspaper. And I clearly told
>him
I DID NOT WANT TO BE IN THAT POSITION--to have to close down a list to
>protect
my privacy--ESPECIALLY WHEN THE LIST IS AS WONDERFUL AND VALUABLE AS
>BEAT-L. I pleaded with him to act BEFORE WE REACHED
THAT POINT. He did.
>So
that leaves 4, which really seems the only alternative that "works."
>I'll
give it my best shot for a while.
> But back to Mr. Wallner, and the
supposed attack on Mr. Gargan. Mr.
>Wallner
was, to a large extent, simply echoing my own complaint about being
>deprived
of the right of self-defense. I DO NOT
THINK MR. GARGAN IS AN
>UNFAIR
MAN, BUT I DO THINK HE MADE A BAD CALL.
And I told him so. (I've
>played
baseball all my life, and the right to question the ump is a sacred
>one,
although admittedly it can get you kicked out.)
> My complaint was based on the fact
that Messieurs Maher, Hemenway,
>et
al. had been promoting Mr. Sampas and Mr. Sampas's events for several
>months
while I was off the Beat-List. I knew
about their posts, but I did
>not
jump in to stop them or attack them. I
let them have their right of
>free
speech. (And I know Mr. Hemenway is
about to tell me that Kerouac Week
>is
not a Sampas-sponsored event, but the names of John Sampas and Stella
>Sampas
are on several pieces of their promotional advertising; and there is
>no
other way to explain no OFFICIAL mention of the passing of Jan Kerouac,
>whose
ashes were buried a few miles from Lowell only four months earlier;
>especially
since they ignored her death the previous year too; and yet they
>went
out of their way to honor Allen Ginsberg's death this year.)
> I do not bring all this stuff up to
start the Estate debate again,
>but
simply to point out that I was being extremely patient in letting the
>other
side talk its talk. But two hours, TWO
HOURS(!), after I reappeared
>(on
October 15) to talk about my legal victory in Florida, Maher was posting
>a
denunciation, followed by Chaput, followed by Gyenis, followed by
>Hemenway. I was trying to get Mr. Gargan to
ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DISCREPANCY,
>before
he simply tossed the label "mud slinger" or "brawler" on
me, as
>several
of you have done. I do not want brawls,
and I do not want
>mudslinging. But when I show extreme patience with the
other side's
>pro-Sampas
postings, for months on end, I think earn the right to have
>similar
patience and deference shown to me.
> I think we have to establish a
difference between the right to
>"sling
mud" and the right to defend oneself.
And I think that was at the
>bottom
of Mr. Wallner's posts for the past several days.
> That is all I am going to say.
> Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia
>Can
you be my friend Gerry?
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:23:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!/I hate it when
that happens
In-Reply-To: <345137E2.D819FA1@scsn.net>
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Bentz
wrote:
>attention
they will see that we are not here to do their work for them.
When
requests like that arrive on the list I beleive it's best to refer
them to
the Reference Desk at the nearest public, college or university
library. They will steer them to the reviews, the
books, the critics, etc.
The
library is where the action is.
j grant
Small Press Authors and Publishers
display books
FREE
at
BookZen
http://www.bookzen.com
402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to
07-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:19:11 -0500
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
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From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: pull my daisy
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to all
the BEAT-L's
thanks
so much for all the suggestions on where to find all versions of
pull my
daisy. the video was the one i was most
interested in.
next:
informal poll:
is
there anyone else from iowa on this list???
or
chicago--i get there quite often.
--"wherever
you go, there you are"
buckaroo
bonzai
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:28:12 EDT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's dedications
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400
from
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
On Fri,
24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400 Alex Howard said:
>>
>> If you were a scholar you would have
known this. Instead, you act as a
>>
negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one
>>
else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering
>>
dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you? Sincerely, Paul
>
>Now,
this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've
>been
hearing come about. You were doing just
fine until you hit this
>paragraph. In fact I had just finished sending off a
post that said much
>the
same thing (I read it in the introduction as well). If you really
>want
to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you
>can
do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about
>it.
>
>------------------
>Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
Mr.
Howard makes a good point. Let's
correct each other but let's try to do wi
th
civility. Let's all make a conscious
effort not to offend one another beca
use,
after all, it's pointless in the end.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:40:54 -0400
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Seoncd cut up
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I am
going to stick with Book of Dreams.
This time, I will cut together
approximately
2 sentences from 5 different pages chosen at random. I
will
enclose the whole in quotes. And
remember it will make sense as
this is
about dreams anyway.
"A
TREMENDOUS FAMILY SAGA, it takes place in a huge high apartment by
the
sea, the same sea of Tidal Waves and Sea Battles-- there are
intelligent
child girls, earlier in the opening of the Saga, in a big
room,
after something to do with the Girl of the Huge Room, Halvar Hayes
holds a
kitten by the neck choking it and me and someone else (Joe