=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:48:36 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr dylan

 

Diane - where did you find the old Playboy issue?

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane De Rooy

Sent:   Thursday, October 23, 1997 9:46 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: mr dylan

 

don't want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you

mean... Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible

CD. It will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't

flame me, anyone).

 

Back to the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac

letters here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long

time.

 

Recommended reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's

death, or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John Clellon

Holmes, Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's

passing, and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.

 

I don't mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.

 

Is it posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too

beautiful not to be required Beat reading.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:04:05 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts

In-Reply-To:  <199710231731.KAA25635@norway.it.earthlink.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Gerry,

 

Save me one of the shirts with Jack and Jan pics side-by-side and her sig

on the back.

 

I'll get a check off to you in a few days.

 

I can't believe Stauffer's "Please ignore the babbling of Richard Wallner

and Gerry Nicosia."

 

Haven't had time to comment YET.

 

Such crap.

 

joe

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:43:03 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Richard Wallner, go away

MIME-Version: 1.0

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thank you, levi.

mc

 

Levi Asher wrote:

 

> Marie C wrote to Richard Wallner:

> > go away. find some friends. get a life. get some manners. the universe

> > does not owe you one goddamned thing. life is what we make it. we  make

> > our own karma. yours is going down the proverbial toilet as i type.

>

> Well said, Marie.  The one thing people often don't understand (or

> figure out too late, after they've made fools of themselves in

> public) is that mailing lists and other internet forums are

> social places.  A wide diversity of behavior should be accepted --

> that's what makes the conversations interesting -- but "behavior"

> is what it is.  You can't treat mailing lists like garbage cans

> for all your pent-up misconcieved mental trash, which is what

> unfortunately some people do, until they get flamed enough

> that they learn to stop.

>

> At this point we are convening at a social/intellectual event

> hosted by Bill Gargan courtesy of Brooklyn College (CUNY) where

> Bill works.  I've met Bill a few times, and for those of you

> who haven't he's a warm, generous person with no interest

> in the legal/political aspects of the Keroauc estate, and

> a strong love for Kerouac's writings.  He understands that

> this list is a social place, and he does an excellent job

> of being an "invisible host", rarely taking part in controversies

> here because of his responsibilities as host.  In the current

> case he only got involved because he wanted to help keep the

> tone of the list friendly and humane -- that's the only

> reason.

>

> Richard Wallner, if this event existed in physical space somebody

> would have kicked your ass by now for your obnoxious behavior.

> Cut it out, go away.  And please do feel free to start your own

> list, nobody's stopping you.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------

> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

> |                                                    |

> |    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

> |     (the beat literature web site)                 |

> |                                                    |

> |        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

> |          (a real book, like on paper)              |

> |             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

> |                                                    |

> |              *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |

> |                                                    |

> |                Mister, I ain't a boy, no I'm a man |

> ------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:00:35 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: mr dylan

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yes, i second the motion to get a hold of this issue (2/73

and i don't see dylan as tangential. he's a musical beat in many ways, but then

he's the jester in white face and the man who no one presumes to know....

happy thursday

mc

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> don't want to start anything tangential here, but marie, i know what you

> mean... Dylan is getting lots of play up here in Seattle. What an incredible

> CD. It will be the first thing I've bought since Blood on the Tracks (don't

> flame me, anyone).

>

> Back to the Beats.... Let's have a lot more Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac

> letters here. We haven't talked about the Beat Triumvurate for a long, long

> time.

>

> Recommended reading to anyone on the (now passed) anniversary of jack's

> death, or any time before the snow flies: "Gone in October," by John Clellon

> Holmes, Playboy magazine, February 1973. I just read it on the day of jack's

> passing, and was stunned by how beautiful and intimate it was.

>

> I don't mind telling you I cried more than once while reading it.

>

> Is it posted anywhere? Levi? Tim? anyone know? It should be. It's too

> beautiful not to be required Beat reading.

>

> diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:07:44 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

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wonderful wonderful insp d:

as always.

mc

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

 

> you wrote:

> (snip)

> ...

> > it remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal

> > attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how

> > valid.

> ...

> > Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if

> > they are less important or their opinions dont matter.

> ...

> > It is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly.  Mr. Asher,

> > you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on

> > it that are in your clique.

> ...

> > have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than

> > accepting the fact that nobody is perfect.  All I want is for uncensored

> > and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend

> > themselvs when attacked.

> richard

> (pls note that i have excerpted parts of yr previous letter to beat-L for

> brevity's sake)

> i take exception to several of the things that you have written in this

> post (and YES i consider myslef a freind of ms.marie countryman having

> corresponded with her on & off list for several years, and have a great

> amount of respect for mr.asher, who's beat webpage is phenominal, and

> mr.gargan who's beat-L dedication i highly appreciate)

> like others have said here - i do not consider beat-L a clique nor an

> exclusionary family. everyone is welcome, but we must realize (in my

> opinion) that we are guests of Mr.gargan here & that there are people

> (people with feelings and emotions) behind the posts. Bill has made it

> very clear that so long as posts are civil and nondisruptive that any

> discussion is valid or reasonable. if concversations move from group

> interst into the realm of a select group, it is not unreasonable to move

> the conversation.

>         think of it as a party at somebody's house. everyone is gathered

> in the living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into

> asides and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want

> to) listen to the private or personal as well as the group conversations?

> i imagine marie and i getting off on a tangent and walking into the

> kitchen to raid the fridge and continue the conversation, while the party

> continues in other viens. that kitchen excurtion is "off-list", the living

> room is "on-list". a few people in the living room take things too far,

> insulting and generally getting too heated for the confort of the room and

> the host... the host kindly asks if the  participants in that heated

> arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou

> their differences ("off-list").

>         would you not do the same if it was yr living room?

>         that doesnt mean that the host is being clque-ish or exclusionary

> - just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the

> greatest number of people.

>         this all sounds very reasonable to me, does it not to you?

>         yrs

>         derek beaulieu

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:12:37 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Web Site Update

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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also bohemians: any cross listers here besides me who isn't feeling idiotic

today? can't follow directions never mind give them.

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Keith Medline wrote:

> >

> > Hello everyone,

> >

> >      Here is a healthy break from the BEAT-L list, drop in at my web

> > page! As some of you know there weren't any updates for a few days,

> > well...The page has added quite a few new features.  So stop by and

> > check it out.

> >      Thank you,

> > Keith

> >

>

> well, i am no health nut, but enoyed the stop. thank you for posting all

> the different poets (including me blush).

> Rinaldo, get something over to this guy, it would be nice to see a few

> of you others too.

>

> is there a way that when you ask how we found our way there we could

> check beat-l.

>

> I especially enjoyed the link to the ginzy site.  When i tried to e-mail

> that site i got a nondeliverable post. any information on that site, it

> is great.

> patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:18:28 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Book Woman Returns

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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welcome back, judith: i understand completely, i spent two weeks on the sur

on ted turners getaway (no glory in this, long sordid story, need to be

supervised in order to return oh well)

any way, i'm heading to CA for dec-jan and i know what you mean. my other

favorite place is vesuvius and city lights, yes, right next to each other on

jack kerouac lane (dead end alleyj-make of this what you will folks) anyway i

have pictures of the corners there and lots of fond memories. can't wait

mc

 

Judith Campbell wrote:

 

> I'm back, after a couple of months on the road, including a wonderful trip

> to City Lights, where I would still be if my spousal unit had not insisted

> I accompany him back home.

>

> I bought the 40th Anniversary edition of On The Road and a copy of Some of

> the Dharma.  Spent a lot of time just wandering around in the Beat section

> of the store soaking up the vibes and wishing I had more money (and time)

> to spend.  The kind gentleman behind the counter at City Lights stamped my

> books with the store seal, and I bought a bookbag to carry them home.

>

> Would have spent more time in North Beach, but it was raining hard.  Next

> morning I decided I had to see Big Sur, so we took Highway 1 all the way

> from San Jose to Los Angeles.  Stopped for lunch in Big Sur, and sat

> outside on the porch of the resturant reading from The Sea....I'm still

> looking for Mien Mo Mountain...someday!

>

>  I didn't make it to Half Moon Bay (next trip) but I saw the most awesome

> sunset of my life over Morro Bay...sun setting over the ocean, huge full

> moon rising over the hills to the east, clear skies, Venus and Mars and

> lots of stars.

>

> Strangely,  as I stood on the shore at Morro Bay and looked out over the

> Pacific, my heart kept saying "this is home".

>

> Bodily, I'm back in Georgia.  Spiritually, a big chuck of me is still

> wandering around between the books of City Lights and rocks of the

> California coast.

>

> It's been a most wonderful experience.

>

> Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:26:54 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

MIME-Version: 1.0

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please everyone i beg you don't make me be the one to tell mr walner he needs

to seek help,

especially since i was rubberstamped mad 10 months ago.

but even i have standards

mc

 

Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> > the host... the host kindly asks if the  participants in that heated

> > arguement would care to take their arguemnet into another room and sort ou

> > their differences ("off-list").

> >         would you not do the same if it was yr living room?

> >         that doesnt mean that the host is being clque-ish or exclusionary

> > - just letting the level of conversation remain comfortable for the

> > greatest number of people.

> >         this all sounds very reasonable to me, does it not to you?

>

> Derek,

>

> point taken, but you see Mr. Gargan wasnt *asking*, he was *telling* them

> to take the argument off the list and was making *threats* to block

> certain people from this list.

>

> In addition, as you saw in the email he sent me, which I forwarded to the

> list, he claims to have reserved the right to decide which topics are

> appropriate here and which arent.

>

> All I ask is what should be expected, that things be done democratically

> here, that no actions be taken or topics declared off limits or people

> blocked, unless the *majority* of the subscribers (not just Bill Gargan)

> deem it appropriate.

>

> People will not contribute regularly unless they feel like they are a

> part of this list, like what they feel counts.  Like each and every

> subscriber to this list means something.

>

> I dont know Nicosia or Phil Maher or any of the principals involved.  If

> it had been *you* or Marie or Leon who was being threatened with censure,

> I'd have defended you to.  I was standing up for principle.  If someone

> is attacked publicly (on the list), and many people ahve read the

> attacks, that person has the right to defend himself *on the list* so

> everyone who read the attacks can also read the defense.  Is this not

> fair Derek?

>

> And for that I get attacked because to those who know Bill Gargan,

> nothing anybody else on this list says means anything.

>

> Why can I be given the benefit of the doubt by you people that I am

> expressing genuine concerns here?  That I am in acting in what I felt and

> is in the best interests of this list, in protecting its openness.

>

> Richard W.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:51:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Richard,

 

Is everyone who objects to your attacks upon imaginary evil doers, a clique

ganging up on you? I  feel very fortunate to be a friend of any of the

people you mention as our clique from what I have seen of them through this

list. One of the reasons  that I value whatever friendship we have already

developed, is that I have seen much more maturity from them too be

interested in acting as cliques. I would back off from anything that looked

to me like a clique, very quickly.

 

Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be

answered. You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as founder

of the list to promote one side of an dispute against the other. I have

never seen any  such unfair practices from Bill, and I appreciate his

patience and tolerance of your attacks that are so obviously based upon lack

of knowledge of what is a list, and misinterpretation of what Bill is trying

to do.

 

Bill has only tried to keep mudslinging from poisoning our list. Not

squelching any issues. Just because the name of Kerouac is included in a mud

slinging brawl between several people does not mean that the list should

welcome the mudslinging. The list is definitely a forum for estate issues,

it is not a ring for a brawl between people who fight each other.

 

You say your attacks are not personal. "Just ethics". I see ethical

accusations, whether they are about Paul, or whether they are about Bill, or

anyone, as being very personal indeed. Suggesting that he is not fit to be a

host of the list is a very personal insult.

 

Accusing me of acting from clique loyalties is a very personal accusation,

although as an expert in washing mud off my face, it really doesn't bother

me Richard. I just wish you would wake up and see more clearly what you are

looking at. There are no clique loyalties involved here at all. Just the

issues and how we see them.

 

leon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 9:26 AM

Subject: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

 

 

>Mr. Asher,

>

>what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to prevent

>the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia

>in this case) who was just trying to defend himself.  This was not a

>personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy

>and he does a terrific job with this list normally.  But nobody is

>perfect, and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his

>ability to effectively police this list.

>

>Mr. Asher, you and Marie and Leon and several others are not being

>objective, you are refusing to see that I am only talking about ethics,

>not making personal attacks.  I have been attacked personally when I have

>never singled out you, Mr. Asher, or anyone else and questioned motives.

>The attacks you and Ms. Countryman leveled against me, especially by

>putting them on the list andnot confrnting me privately, lacked common

>dignity.  All I want is for the list to grow, and the list cannot grow if

>it remains at its core a clique of people who will resort to personal

>attacks if any friend of theirs is critized about anything, no matter how

>valid.  I was trying to defend the honor of the list, by pointing out to

>Mr. Gargan that it is wrong to censor anybody here, or treat anyone as if

>they are less important or their opinions dont matter.

>

>This list is much more than what it was when it started.  It is not a

>little social grup of CUNY or Brooklyn college beat readers, it has over

>200 subscribers around the country.

>

>It is a special list and deserves to be cared for properly.  Mr. Asher,

>you and your friends act as ifyou wish this list only had those people on

>it that are in your clique.

>

>My motives were honest and above board.  Yours arent, Mr. Asher.  You

>have proved that you are more interested in protecting your friends, than

>accepting the fact that nobody is perfect.  All I want is for uncensored

>and open debate on Beat issues, and for people to be able to defend

>themselvs when attacked.

>

>All you want is whatever Bill Gargan wants, no matter what that is.  You

>cant accept that there is even a 1 in 10,000 chance that he overreacted

>because he's "Bill Gargan"

>

>This is not about personalities.  It is about the Beat-L list and how

>best to run it.  I wish you could see that I have good intentions.

>

>

>Richard W.

>.-

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Icychick34@AOL.COM

Subject:      HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

hello,

let me start off by saying that my name is kristina and i am a 19 year old in

need of help. i am writing a research paper about William S. Burroughs novel j

unky. i was wondering if you could help me by finding or offering critical

opinions of the book for me as soon as possible. anything you could come up

with would be greatly appreciated. thank you.

sincerely,

kristina ames              e-mail: ICYCHICK34@SOL.COM

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:50:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Comments: To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971023112645.108748B-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

>         think of it as a party at somebody's house. everyone is gathered

> in the living room talking together. the conversation then spliters into

> asides and more private dialogues. would you want (or would the group want

 

But this is not somebody's private house.  This list is not run off of

Bill Gargan's private computer.  It is a List-serv run off of the City

University of New York facilities, a taxpayer supported public

institution.  The taxpayer money of every subscriber on this list, or

certainly all of us who live in New York, are paying for the maintenance

and distribution of this list.

 

Mr. Gargan cannot run a private bbs ona public computer.  He is morally

and ethically bound to honor democratic principles, and legallylly bound

by university regulations.  I do not believe that CUNY administration

would feel that this list benefits its students, community or supporters

if it thought Mr. Gargan wanted only to honor his own agenda, and not

respect the wishes of those who subscribe o this list.

 

Thisis a public list.  We all own it.  Mr. Gargan, take this list down

and put it up on your personal computer if you want it otherwise.

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:54:18 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: mr dylan

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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<snip>

. happy thursday everbody.

<unsnip>

 

could i interest you in some cottleston pie?

 

> mc

>

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:58:43 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: my voice

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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very nice indeed.

 

> i'd like to share a poem also, in the midst of all this conflict. I'd like to

> remember the spirit of freedom and "get in a car and go" I'd appreciate

> comments, this is my first draft. here it goes....

>

> Another car poem

>

> take a drive with me tonight

> arch your back in the front seat

> and give me that wicked smile that promises

> we'll "get lost" on a dirt road somewhere

>         Just ride...

> with the coffe stained atrands of your hair

> leaking out the window

> as your laughter crescendoes

> to the shape of this little town,

> to the slip drip excitement

> the expanded view

> the canopy of palm trees and night road sound

>    humming crickets, and

>  "four wheels to the groud"

> i'd like to watch the world circle from the passenger seat,

> as you sprinkle ahes

> into the coated black air

>              Peppermint on your lips

>              "red afternoon in your eyes"

> let me inhale you

>    in the middle of the night

> with those fuzzy, soft-shadowed inside the car senses

> let me smell your pine needle incense

> watch you with your knees pulled up

> to your chest

> wishing for some down-time

>  alone time

>  happy raindrop sugar sweet time

>              I know you come a live at night time

> i know how you lower your eyes to the ground

>   as if thats where they belong

>    belong to the land

>      behold the land!

>       Grab onto the road!

>          Hold tight the night!

> Take a drive with me

> take the wheel

> take your big dreamsad eyes

> take the harvest moon

> take scented sounds spirits of foggy forest paths

> take radio songs and tall rusty haired country boys

> take your slitted mouth

>         that leans side to side

>     Take my hand....

> we'll spin inside the wet mosquito night

> answering the call of the highway

>  Two wind chasers mixing up a little homemade adventure

> in this mad-based       mad-crazed

>    sterile world.

>

> ~~Marlene Giraud

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:02:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Comments: To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

In-Reply-To:  <01bcdfed$0c1e8060$455de3a5@mbay69.cruzio.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

> list. One of the reasons  that I value whatever friendship we have already

> developed, is that I have seen much more maturity from them too be

> interested in acting as cliques. I would back off from anything that looked

> to me like a clique, very quickly.

 

When people are attacking someone without addressing the merits of his

argument, but just to attack like a pack, that is a clique.  All Im

getting from people like Ms. Countryman is "amen's" and "way to go's"..

in response to other empty criticisms.  That is a clique mentality.

 >

> Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be

> answered. You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as founder

> of the list to promote one side of an dispute against the other.

 

I have never said Bill supported one position or one side in this

dispute, just that he specifically threatened to block one person from

responding in self-defense to personal attacks.  That is a fact.  Not my

opinion.  He did threaten to block Gerry Nicosia from posting.

 

> Bill has only tried to keep mudslinging from poisoning our list. Not

> squelching any issues. Just because the name of Kerouac is included in a mud

> slinging brawl between several people does not mean that the list should

> welcome the mudslinging. The list is definitely a forum for estate issues,

> it is not a ring for a brawl between people who fight each other.

>

This is not a moderated list, if Billwants to moderate it, he should

avoid the hypocrisy and simply make this a moderated list and review  all

posts.  He seems to want it both ways.

 

> You say your attacks are not personal. "Just ethics". I see ethical

> accusations, whether they are about Paul, or whether they are about Bill, or

> anyone, as being very personal indeed. Suggesting that he is not fit to be a

> host of the list is a very personal insult.

 

I never said he is not fit.  I said he is doing a good job.  Read my

posts again Leon.  I said he overreacted on this one issue, and he did.

That isnt a personal insult.  That it is taken as so is another

indication of the clique mentality.

 

I have told Mr. Gargan that in as much as I have been dragged through

themud, I will not drop this until he makes a public statement spelling

out his role, and agreeing to respect the majority wishes of the

subscribers of this list.

 

I just want him to tell his friends that he overreacted so they get off

my case, and we can go on.  He *did* threaten to block posts and he *did

*threaten* to dictate discussion.  thats not my imagination.  Those oare

facts!

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:00:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      The Beat Generation in New York

 

I just received (hot off the presses) my copy of Bill Morgan's new book, "The

Beat Generation in New York: A walking tour of Jack Kerouac's City," (City

Lights) and I hope I can stop drooling onto my keyboard long enough to tell

you how incredible it is.

 

As a cursory explanation of something you must see to appreciate, let me say

that Morgan has laid out the Beat City by neighborhoods, from Columbia

University to Times Square to the Village to the boroughs, developed

anecdotes about each site and juxtaposed the oral history with beautiful

photos... some familiar, some not. He's included a "Who's Who" for Beat

tyros, as well as a bibliography and index for reference.

 

It's beautiful, it's smooth, it's supple, it's juicy... it's Beat, baby.

 

"You get a sense of eternity looking at Manhattan from a boat arriving--the

buildings look as if they were manufacturing cosmic jazz." (Allen Ginsberg,

from the introduction) "I roamed the streets, the bridges, Times Square,

cafeterias, the waterfront, I looked up all my poet beatnik friends and

roamed with them, I had love affairs with girls in the Village, I did

everything with that great mad joy you get when you return to New York City."

(Jack Kerouac, from the introduction)

 

In addition to the usual suspects, Morgan also includes historic references

to Warhol et. al., Lou Reed et. al., Thomas Wolfe, Tim Leary, CBGBs and Jan

Kerouac. The book is delicious, to say the least.

 

I ordered my copy through City Lights, by going to their website at:

http://www.citylights.com/CLpub.html and then calling the phone order line

(better still, call City Lights direct and avoid the voice mail yada yada:

416/362-8193).

 

It may not even be available in your bookstore yet, but you can get it right

now by ordering direct.

 

I haven't ever been to New York, but when I go, it will be with this book

clenched tightly in my little fist. Thanks to all the photographers

(especially Allen Ginsberg) and to Bill Morgan for this beautiful,

illuminating, transcendant walking tour.

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:11:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

 

In a message dated 97-10-23 17:01:25 EDT, you write:

 

<< > Yes, I felt that you did insult Bill terribly, and I felt It should be

 > answered. You did accuse him of censorship and using his position as

founder

 > of the list to promote one side of an dispute against the other.

 

 I have never said Bill supported one position or one side in this

 dispute, just that he specifically threatened to block one person from

 responding in self-defense to personal attacks.  That is a fact.  Not my

 opinion.  He did threaten to block Gerry Nicosia from posting.

  >>

 

Richard,

 

This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on it,

you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."

 

Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a person

supposed to respond to that powerful verb?

 

"what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to prevent

the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its subsribers (Nicosia

in this case) who was just trying to defend himself.  This was not a

personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy

and he does a terrific job with this list normally.  But nobody is

perfect, and he overreacted here, and by his own admission overstated his

ability to effectively police this list."

 

Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using the power

of these words to make your case against what you define as repression of

free speech.

 

When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including yourself) a

favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own letters, then respond.

That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you said.

 

And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when you

can't admit it and move on.

 

Let it go, Richard.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:18:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

In-Reply-To:  <971023163559_1735129247@mrin46.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>hello,

>let me start off by saying that my name is kristina and i am a 19 year old in

>need of help. i am writing a research paper about William S. Burroughs novel j

>unky. i was wondering if you could help me by finding or offering critical

>opinions of the book for me as soon as possible. anything you could come up

>with would be greatly appreciated. thank you.

>sincerely,

>kristina ames              e-mail: ICYCHICK34@SOL.COM

 

Call Reference at the public, college, or university library. They'll steer

you to all the reviews of books by WSB.  These reviews will not substitute

for you reading the book(s) but it's better than nothing.

Reference will really provide help.

 

jo grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:20:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      City Lights...oops

 

<<avoid the voice mail yada yada: 416/362-8193).>>

 

too much drool on my keyboard. the area code is 415, not 416....

 

hee hee hee

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:30:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      In a nutshell...

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997102315240777@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Mr. Gargan,

 

(this is *on* the list btw)

 

I mean no disrespect.  I appreciate Beat-L and think you have done a

superb job organizing it.  Beat-L is however an unmoderated list.  Your

recent threats to block posts, curtail discussion and .etc to stop

mudslinging is the work of a moderator.  If you wish this role, change

Beat-L to a moderated conference.  If you do not, if you wish this to be

an unmoderated conf as it has been, admit that you cannot moderate an

unmoderated conf.  And apologize to all concerned for threatening to do

so. To calla conf "unmoderated" and at the same time claim the role of

moderator is hypocritical.

 

If we respect each other, we do not need moderation.  Most mudslinging is

temporary and would not last.

 

I would like this dispute to end.  What I ask is reasonable.  I meant no

disrespect or anything I said to constitute a personal attack.

 

Subscribres of this list have been dragged through the mud, and it is not

right for you to allow these attacks to go on without admitting to what

you know are valid grievances.  This can end. You can end it.  Or this

list will suffer.

 

Again noone is disrespecting you, but as the organizer of this list, you

need to state pubicly that you will respect your subscribers concerns.

 

Richard Wallner

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

i'll help.

junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

he was so busy getting drunk and high.

all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

class.

one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

cockroach and started talking to him.

it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:39:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> emote emote emote

>

> i believe in cliques, i even would like to join one, i once visited a

> web site that suggested we could register as a johnson.  I did try to

> register but never heard anything back..  In some book of williams he

> mentions me as a johnson but i can't remember which book it was and my

> mother wants it.   She is 6 feet tall and very fierce.

>         when william did that, it made me gasp.  i quess then i felt a little

 funny because it is always dangerous to think you are on the side of the

 angels. It makes you fail to recognize a fucking angel when you meet him. You

 can do the most harm and bruise the peaches.

 

 i have been going over my boxes of crap in the basement and trying to

 catalogue them and place them in plastic sacks.  I hope this is the

 right thing to do as several people have told me that i need to take

 care of this crap.

 god it has been fun going through the boxes.  I had my wizard scan some

of the single sheets and want to post them.. now this is not personal mr

gargan, for i have come to admire you and your restraint, but i have

 failed at setting up my own web site for my picture gallery.  so if any

one wants to help me figure out a way to post these. email me

pelliott@sunflower.com

incoherently and sporadicaly yours

 patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:58:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: J Stauffer

In-Reply-To:  <344ECF90.1046@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Dear J. Stauffer,

 

You write..." ...the babbling of Gerry Nicosia...a violation of rudimentary

manners."

 

That surprised me.

 

I've seen Gerry Nicosia provoked to anger and IMO the anger justified, but

I've not read anything from him that I believe could be called "babbling,"

or that was a "violastion of rudimentary manners"--close maybe, but good

people get pushed too hard and too far sometimes.

 

Gerry has established himself as a writer and researcher who is held in

high regard. He was being honored for his work on Memory Babe long before

the book was published. For someone to step forward and literaly call him a

thief, dishonest, in-it-for-the-money, a liar, an anatagonistic

provocateur, untruthful, a dormant malignancy, a full-blown cancer, etc.

along with the direct quote from John Sampas--which I deleted and wiped

from my mind as being an outrage that would deserve shunning.

 

I have personally taken issue (directly) with Gerry for allowing a post by

one of the Sampas posse to trigger an angry response from him. However, my

criticism has been that he responded at all. Gerry may lose his cool, may

get angry, but he doesn't babble--doesn't talk "indistinctly,

meaninglessly, incoherently or like an idiot."

 

And quite frankly I sit here feeling pretty stupid even taking time to

respond--so much work to do. The whole thing has become painful. A casual

visitor could arrive and leave with impressions of Gerry that the list

members know are unwarranted.

 

Accusations made against me are ignored. I've been attacked by pros. I'm

too poor to sue, too aimless to die, too passive to punch, too fast to

kick, so old people don't believe it, with a history no one wants to take a

chance with and have a sense of humor. In the mid eighties the government

had me under oath asking me "Are you now,or have you ever been a member of

the Communist party?" I laughed so hard I peed in my pants. Anyone got a

problem with this old Scot? Get in line.

 

As for the estate controversy, I believe the information we have been

exposed to is important, but I do cringe when innuendo is substituted for

facts and civility ignored.

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:35:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: The unpublished Kerouac

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Offhand...I know Buddha Tells Us was published serially in Tricycle

Magazine. Book of Sketches, bothe notebooks and typescript is in the New

York Public Library Berg Collection, The Night Is My Woman is indeed written

in French from 1951 but is regretably unfinished. Visions of Bill I'm not

sure of. Visions of Lucien exists solely as an idea never realized in any

form. Memory Babe, started in 1958, was never completed. The rest, as gerry

indicates, indeed do exist and are in various stages of completion towards

imminent publication. As fas as getting them out slowly, John Sampas has

been in charge since 1992 and has put out six books since he started. How

fast would you like them? Paul of TKQ....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:24:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Pull my daisy

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

What is the history of this?  In scattered poems there are two versions

of the poem.  Isn't there a movie or something?  And what are you guys

looking for?  I would like to know more about the legend of Pull My

Daisy.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:23:17 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pull my daisy

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

hey bentz.

i do know that in my bootleg copy of "beat jazz: pictures from the

gone world"  snite ellis w/david amram  sing a slightly different

version called "the crazy daisy" which is very cool as well. in

scattered poems, (sorry a friend borrowed it and has yettogive it back)

i think there are two or three different versions, each a little more

risque than the other, that were composed by allen ginsberg, neal

cassady and (obviosly) jack kerouac). i would guess that the big

two and neal wrote a few different versions together while high and

someone passed it along to snite ellis, who has a nice voice. anyone

else have some corrections or additions?

randy

 

> What is the history of this?  In scattered poems there are two versions

> of the poem.  Isn't there a movie or something?  And what are you guys

> looking for?  I would like to know more about the legend of Pull My

> Daisy.

>

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

>

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:22:27 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:36:00 -0400 from

              <Icychick34@AOL.COM>

 

Check out Eric Mottram's book "The Algebra of Need."  It's a good place to star

t.  I'd give you additional suggestions but I think you'll find other sources f

rom different listmembers.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:24:35 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:50:50 -0400 from

              <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

 

Tax payers also pay for the fire engines.  But we don't get to drive them and r

ide on them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:29:13 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>

Subject:      Re: The unpublished Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

 

thanks for the verifaction. on regards to speed, slow down! i know

this  sounds strange but some people just started the hole beat genre

and need alot of catching up to do.

randy

> Offhand...I know Buddha Tells Us was published serially in Tricycle

> Magazine. Book of Sketches, bothe notebooks and typescript is in the New

> York Public Library Berg Collection, The Night Is My Woman is indeed written

> in French from 1951 but is regretably unfinished. Visions of Bill I'm not

> sure of. Visions of Lucien exists solely as an idea never realized in any

> form. Memory Babe, started in 1958, was never completed. The rest, as gerry

> indicates, indeed do exist and are in various stages of completion towards

> imminent publication. As fas as getting them out slowly, John Sampas has

> been in charge since 1992 and has put out six books since he started. How

> fast would you like them? Paul of TKQ....

> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                            Henry David Thoreau

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:20:38 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

> Richard,

>

> This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on

> it, you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."

> Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a person

> supposed to respond to that powerful verb?

>

> >  "what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to

> > prevent the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its

> > subsribers (Nicosia in this case) who was just trying to defend

> > himself.  This was not a personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure

> > Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy and he does a terrific job with this

> >  list normally. But nobody is perfect, and he overreacted here, and

> > by his own admission overstated his

> > ability to effectively police this list."

>

> Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using the

> power of these words to make your case against what you define as >

> repression of free speech.

>

> When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including

> yourself) a favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own

> letters, then respond.

> That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you

> said.

>

> And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when

> you can't admit it and move on.

>

> Let it go, Richard.

 

And if we are talking about facts, Richard Wallner in several posts,

including the one you quoted above says, "This was not a personal attack

on Bill Gargan."  And yet in one of his posts, dated 10/22, he says, "It

is a worthwhile list and doesn't deserve to be killed by a power hungry

would-be moderator...Just sit back and watch the debate and if you can't

stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete."

 

To me, calling someone a "power hungry would be moderator" is definitely

a personal attack, and Levi Asher was right on target in his response.

 

Richard, if you want to keeping arguing about this crap, do it with

yourself, and let the rest of us get back to discussing beat literature.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:08:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: hi cathie!

 

you can get the Pull my Daisy video simply by calling 1-800-kerouac, and

ordering a catatlogue. they've got great stuff like posters and t-shirts and

books you can't find in most bookstores like "as ever" the correspondence

between NC and AG. thats on my list to get next, when i get some cash.

hope that helped. take care.

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:30:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia

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Does anybody have a copy of Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia for sale?

I saw it on a first edition of Memory babe and I would like to read it.

It's subtitle, as indicated by www.amazon.com is " An Intimate Portrait of

Gay Hustling in Chicago." I am not sure of the publisher or year of

publication. Thanks...Paul...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:18:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>

Subject:      losing it....

 

dear list,

i'm about at the end of my rope with all these off subject posts. i joined

the list this past summer and was so thrilled to be discussing the literature

that i love. I'm probably younger than most on the list (18) and maybe its my

innocence, but i'm dying to get back to the real reason we subscribed here.

This is my plea. I sent out a poem in hopes to pacify everyone and lift

spirits, but that didn't work. i've gotten no comments and my mail is filled

with asinine bickering. Everybody has something to say, and its i'm being

attacked, no you're being attacked, who has the power here, you have no power

here and so forth. Its enough to drive me mad! I feel like I'm back in

highschool. This is sad. Can't we make peace through our common love of the

Beats? I'm begging here.

 

~~Marlene

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:46:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: More Di Prima

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> James Stauffer wrote:

>

> FOR PIGPEN

> Velvet at the edge of the tongue,

> at the edge of the brain,it was

> velvet.  At the edge of history.

>

> Sound was light.  Like tracing

> ancient letter w/yr toe on the

> floor of the ballroom.

> They came & went, hotel guests

> like the Great Gatsby.

> And wondered at the music.

>         Sound was light.

>

> jagged sweeps of discordant

> Light. Aurora borealis over

> some cemetery.  A bark. A howl.

> At the edge of history & there was

>         no time

>

> shouts. trace circles

> of breath.  All futures.  Time

> was this light & sound

> spilled out of it.

>

>         Flickered

> & fell under blue windows.  False drawn.

> And too much wind.

>

>         We come round.

> Make circles.  Blank as a clock.

> Spill velvet damage on the edge

> of history.

 

James,

 

This is an excellent poem.  Is it in one of her books or an anthology?

Does anyone know if she explores this circle/history/time theme in other

poems?  Also really interesting is her use of "sound is light."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:41:10 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Keith Medline <mrsparty@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: losing it....

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Indeed Marlene,

 

I was referrd here by Dr. Rod Phillips, someone who was well respected

on this list and I like veryone else thought that Beat relaed topics

would dominate the discussion.  However, i soon found it was no better

than the political policy class I am in.  Who has what power, where,

when and over exactly what bounds can he step....  This is lame.

Who cares if Kerouac wanted people to argue none of us do.

Amen Marlene

Keith

 

 

 

>dear list,

>i'm about at the end of my rope with all these off subject posts. i

joined

>the list this past summer and was so thrilled to be discussing the

literature

>that i love. I'm probably younger than most on the list (18) and maybe

its my

>innocence, but i'm dying to get back to the real reason we subscribed

here.

>This is my plea. I sent out a poem in hopes to pacify everyone and lift

>spirits, but that didn't work. i've gotten no comments and my mail is

filled

>with asinine bickering. Everybody has something to say, and its i'm

being

>attacked, no you're being attacked, who has the power here, you have no

power

>here and so forth. Its enough to drive me mad! I feel like I'm back in

>highschool. This is sad. Can't we make peace through our common love of

the

>Beats? I'm begging here.

>

>~~Marlene

>

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:08:22 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      sigh

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

well i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but

mr walner:

have you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and your

hysterics and your egoism on this list by now?

like you've been told before:

it's bill's list.

you are an ass, sir.

g'night.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:33:12 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: More Di Prima

 

Diane - di Prima's "For Pigpen" is in Pieces of a Song.  i'm no expert on her,

but cyclical themes do see to come up often (she seems to be pretty heavy into

Eastern spirituality/mysticism).  i'll go through the book a little bit more

tonight if i get a chance and see if that triple theme comes up regularly and

post what, if anything, i find.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:54:45 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: sigh

 

i suggest we all stop responding to this garbage.  then it will die of it's

own accord.  those of you who know me, know i have the patience of Job.

however, Richard, you have succeeded in making me completely annoyed and

pissed off.  if you can't let it drop, then fuck off.

 

ok, i feel better.  now let's not respond any more if he posts any further on

this particular subject.  exercise your delete keys with impunity!  he will

get tired of talking to himself.

 

Avalokitesvara (also my special deity) bless this lovely list!

 

ciao,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:16:06 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Wichita Vortex an update

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

well a guy i met in lawrence at the memorial service who is a friend of

C. Plymell's in Wichita is going to show me some things in wichita that

i might not find just wandering ... and if i can find a native american

gem salesman that i've known for years I may just show CP's friend a

side of Wichita that he doesn't yet know about!!!

 

it may actually include a few things besides truckstops to write about

:) :) :) wish me luck!!!

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:43:43 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

 

If you all will entertain a motion from the floor... <ahem> I'd like to

suggest you just ignore the squeaky wheels and go on with your thoughts on

Beat-L.

 

It's amazing how powerfully a haranguing voice (like a two-year-old throwing

a tantrum) can command all of one's attention, even stopping a person in

his/her tracks and effectively overthrowing the kingdom of intelligent

discourse in the process.

 

Nations aren't all taken down by big old H-bombs, but by the infiltration of

garbage into the collective consciousness, forcing a focus onto trivial

thought, away from planning and dreaming and sharing.

 

Takes two to tango. My advice? Sit this one out.

 

diane

====================

If I had a signature on my email it would be:

"Never mud-wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:50:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      New Kerouac Bibliography

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As many on this list are aware, I have been working on a new Kerouac

bibliography for many years.  It is based on my collection and the other

fine Kerouac collections I have been lucky enough to examine.

 

The new bibliography will add many primary items ("A" items) that Charters

missed.  It will also correct the numerous mistakes and typos in her book.

In addition, it will add all the new material that has been published since

her book.

 

The periodical section will also look quite different.  It will contain

numerous and many early appearances by Kerouac that Charters did not list.

Of course, his worked has appeared in many additional periodicals over the

past 20 years.

 

Finally, the translation section will be vastly enlarged.  This is an area

that I take much pride in.  I have found many translations unknown to

Charters.  My own collection of translations is quite large.

 

If you have any information that you think I might not know about, please

feel free to e-mail me at ileif@ix.netcom.com

 

Irving Leif

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:38:00 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      back to beat

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For the new people on the list, who wonder why we are interested in

the beats, and for the rest of us so that we never lose sight of the

dream for too long, here are three passages by Jack Kerouac:

 

Lamb, No Lion, 1958

 

"...Beat doesn't mean tired, or bushed, so much as it means 'beato,' the

Italian for beatific: to be in a state of beatitude, like St. Francis,

trying to to love all life, trying to be utterly sincere with everyone,

practicing endurance, kindness, cultivating joy of heart.  How can this

be done in our mad, modern world of multiplicities and millions?  By

practicing a little solitude, going off my yourself once in a while to

store up that most precious of golds; the vibrations of sincerity...

 

...After publishing my book about the beat generation I was asked to

explain beatness on TV, on radio, by people everywhere.  They were all

under the impression that being beat was just a lot of frantic nowhere

hysteria.  What are you searching for? they asked me.  I answered that I

was waiting for God to show his face. (Later I got a letter from a

16-year old girl saying that was exactly what she had been waiting for

too.)  They asked: How could this have anything to do with mad hepcats? I

answered that even mad hepcats with all their kicks and chicks and hep

talk were creatures of God laid out here in this infinite universe

without knowing what for.  And besides I have never heard more talk about

God, the Last Things, the soul, the where-we-are-going than among kids of

my generation and not the intellectual kids alone, all of them.  In the

faces of my questioners was the hopeless question: But Why?...

 

I prophesy that the Beat Generation which is supposed to be nutty

nihilism in the guise of new hipness, is going to be the most sensitive

generation in the history of America and therefore it can't help but do

good.  Whatever wrong comes will come out of evil interference.  If there

is any quality that I have noticed more strongly than anything else in

this generation, it is the spirit of non-interference with the lives of

others.  I had a dream that I didn't want the lion to eat the lamb and

the lion came up and lapped my face like a big puppy dog and then I

picked up the lamb and it kissed me.  This is the dream of the beat

generation."

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:43:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      more t-shirts!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Hi, everyone,

        I'm beginning to think my true calling was to sell t-shirts, judging

by all the emails I'm getting.  It sure beats the hell out of being a

biographer, literary executor, and archive champion.

        Anyway, while emptying out the cupboards of Kerouac T-shirts, I came

across three brand-new T's that had been donated by Last Gasp (SF comic book

and counterculture distributor) to one of my Kerouac events.  These are kind

of wild, off-the-wall T's, all Hanes beefy T's.  I'll gladly get rid of them

for $10 apiece postpaid, and consider the money contributed to the MEMORY

BABE ARCHIVE RECOVERY fund.

        There is:

        1) Zippy the Pinhead, large, full color on white cloth, saying, "All

life is a blur of Republicans and meat."

        2)"Bad Habits" -- black T, XL (46-48) full color illustration of

ditzy blond with gun and cocktail and businessman type guy smoking five

cigarettes, holding a martini and drug vile in other hand.  Balloons and

party decorations and spilled bottle decor.

        3) white t, large, a triumphant colonel Sanders with foot on bloody

chicken bucket and holding ax dripping blood in one hand and bloody headless

chicken in the other--definitely for the more macabre or black-humor types

among you.

        That's all I've got, folks!

        Please confirm your order with me before sending check and also to

get my address if you don't have it.

        Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 00:46:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: more t-shirts!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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well finely a new thread.

 

i wore my precious beat-l tee shirt when i read in austin, and it gave

me powerrrrr.

 maybe i should wear the zippy one if i decide to read in topeka.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:59:07 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.91.971022142017.20380A-100000@turbo.kean.edu>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

this may be true in new jersey, but my best friend works at a b dalton in

omaha and they keep all copies of OTR locked up in the safe because every

copy that went onto the shelves was stolen. (it was the only book that

anyoone ever seemed to steal at their store.) they also had a heck of a

time even getting some f the darma in! (finally got my copy though. looks

good so far.)

 

i'm glad your store is beat friendly. my experience with that company is

that they are not typically this way.

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:

 

> hi folks,

>         i work for B Dalton Books which is affiliated with B&N and let me

> just say that we never keep any books behind our counter. Our jack

> kerouac section is always well stocked with the latest releases which

> included the recent 40th anniversary edition of On the Road. Perhaps some

> stores have policies regarding this issue but in my case (A N.J. store

> inside a mall) we don't practice that type of customer service. This

> includes William Burrough's books which have dominated two shelves on

> their own in the fiction section. And reecently i have been on the

> mission to order The Beat Generation trading cards by Tundra Press (i

> think its Tundra) which is a rare item to find but nevertheless something

> we should sell to the public. All in all, my B.Dalton store is a beatnik

> haven.

>                                         jason

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:08:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Brian M. Kirchhoff" <bkirchho@S-CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971022160541.604A@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

richard,

 

have you considered switching to a decafinated blend?

 

Brian M. Kirchhoff----Omaha, NE

"Someone must have been telling lies about Joeseph K., for without having

done anything wrong he was arrested one fine morning." -Kafka, The Trial

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:

>

> > Mr. Wallner, I own the list.  I started it and when I choose I will shut it

>  dow

> > n.  Start your own list if you like.

> >

>

> Mr. Gargan, you do not own the individual email addresses of everyone on

> this list.  Go ahead and shut it down.  You cant stop the members of this

> list from collectivley communicating with each other.

>

> So shut it down.  I have archives of this list, I can put together a list

> of all the addresses and start it back up almost as fast as you can kill

> it.   The only difference is that I would never consider mysef more than

> just another participant.  I wouldnt bully people off the list, threaten

> others or claim the right to determine which subject matter is appropriate.

>

>   This list exsists because of the people on it.  You can change the

> forwarding address.  You cant kill it, not as long as we want it to go on.

>

> since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

>

> RJW

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:43:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> since you cant kill it, cant control it, you dont own it.  Period.

>>

>> RJW

 

 

Hmm, feels like I never left... {;^>

 

Mike

 

PS. Hello to any old friends out there - and to any new

ones!!  It was a nice 5 and a half month beat-l break!!

If anyone has tried to contact me in the last few

months and I didn't reply to your message, it's probably

because I never got to them (too busy with school shit,

etc., and kinda lost track of my email).  Sorry!!

Neil, if you're still out there, get in touch...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 06:56:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: losing it....

 

marlene...you've said it all..."from the mouths of babes..."  don't let this

talk get you down kid.  kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs and the rest belong to

people like you.  certainly not what's going on here.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:15:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>

Subject:      What Happened??????

 

        Did I get lost in the late night suffle? Haven't recieved a posting

for 3 days.Is it something I said or did? Or is it one of those nasty

computer gods doing their tricks on us?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:16:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Tom Waits-On the Road

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Stephen Ronan (beat archivist/writer extraordinaire) mentions in this

months issue of Dharma Beat Magazine about the release by Geffen Records of

a previously unheard recording of Jack Kerouac reading from "On the Road".

He goes on to state "There is every reason to suspect that this is the

greatest sustained recording by Kerouac and the release will be another

milestone in the publication of his work."

This guy really knows his stuff as his "Discography of the Beat Generation

- Disks of the Gone World" will attest. I hope he keeps us informed. I also

found this on Tom Waits page-

 

Geffen Records will release a Jack Kerouac album in early 1998. This album

will feature rare recordings by Jack Kerouac, but it will also include the

song "On The Road". The music to this was written by Tom Waits and will

feature Jack Kerouac with Tom Waits and the members of Primus performing

the music behind it. This track was recorded earlier this year at Prairie

Sun Studios in Northern California.

 

This is exciting stuff. If anyone has anymore info on this keep us

informed. Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:40:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: work in progress (very early early in process) please make

              suggestions  Post #1

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>=20

> SALINA:  The FireWalk Saga a Retrospective Rambling.....

>=20

> =93ONCE I was young and had so much more orientation and could talk wit=

h

> nervous intelligence about everything and with clarity and without as

> much literary preambling as this;  in other words this is the story of

> an unself-confident man, at the same time of an egomaniac, naturally,

> facetious won=92t do -- just to start at the beginning and let the trut=

h

> seep out, that=92s what I=92ll do --.  It began on a warm summernight -=

-

> ......=94

>                                                 Jack Kerouac,  The Subt=

erraneans

>=20

> =93You see control can never be a means to any practical end . . . It c=

an

> never be a means to anything but more control . . . Like junk . . .=94

>                                                 William S. Burroughs, J=

r.,  Naked Lunch

>=20

> =93The sword of discovery goes before the couch of laughter.  One sneer=

s

> by modifying a snarl;  one smiles by modifying a sneer.  You should hav=

e

> lived twice, and smiled the second time.=94

>                                                 Kenneth Burke,  Towards=

 a Better Life

>=20

> June 30, 1997.  HOT HOT HOT Summer afternoon in Salina -- the journal

> predicted something around 98 degrees for a high today.  The affective

> level of heat goes far far beyond temperature.  I can feel a storm

> coming here on the plains for days and days before the arrival.  Some

> form of sinus injury it appears -- perhaps some form of affective scar

> of the previously disclosed FireWalk thru Madness.  At any rate,

> yesterday the storm that had been coming and the waiting that was

> leaving me nearly incapacitated hit Salina and it was barely a storm at

> all.  It was a downpour for certain but the length of time that the

> universe opened and dropped itself wet and wild on the plains was

> nothing like what was necessary or even acceptable.  It seems the

> farmers and the universe are having a battle of wills over precipitatio=

n

> and something around here which they call Harvest that I know next to

> nothing about though I probably should given that i=92m something of a

> native but I don=92t and so I feel the universe=92s side of the battle =

from

> the scars of the FireWalk and not the farmer=92s angle and so as a resu=

lt

> my sinuses control my being and I am incapacitated in a way that is

> unnatural for a thirty-five year old man.

>=20

> Looking back on the FireWalk thru Madness, there is much I can smile

> about this second time around -- but today on this afternoon one of

> those things has little to do with smiles -- perhaps sneers and snarls

> at a self-imposed control that Monday is =93Clean the Bathroom day=94 w=

hich

> is horribly significant in my current project of returning to the livin=

g

> (the re-entry suggested back in Colt-45 appears to have been far from

> compleat and only now am I beginning to become spatially connected to

> what philosopher priests might call the HERE or the NOW or the often

> combined HERE & NOW).  And since it is afternoon, the other scar that i=

s

> more than a daily ritual but a near physiological necessity and control=

s

> my being which most people don=92t understand at all is coming on.

> Siesta.  Everyday a siesta of undetermined length.  And many speak of

> envy and whatnot but they simply don=92t understand that this scar of t=

he

> FireWalk has little to do with the lazy and pleasant freedom

> traditionally associated with the term siesta and maybe I shouldn=92t e=

ven

> call it that.  This is a matter of control of my body and its rhythms

> and is a necessity for anything approaching Koyanisquatsi or whatever

> that word for balancing act is.  So in Salina a town in Kansas that

> contains some of my roots i=92m recovering from the re-entry of the

> projections mentioned in FireWalk and looking back over my shoulder in =

a

> retrospective glance on that saga and realizing that the control of the

> siesta this scar of the journey is overwhelming even the desire, want o=

r

> need to begin rambling about the connections of FireWalk then and

> FireWalk now and beginning to understand what intrapersonal ecology is

> an the sacredness of space beginning with the morning ritual of

> showering in the sacred place called bathroom though I may never take a

> bath in there.

>=20

> It all starts with an awareness of scene.  I have almost none.  FireWal=

k

> was all about escaping time I suppose.  What I called images were hardl=

y

> anything close to scenery.  I don=92t even have the vocabulary to descr=

ibe

> scene and yet here in Salina in my introduction to space into the HERE

> things will begin with scene.  The scene is a small room at the back of

> my apartment 23.  It is my bathroom.  It is hardly a place yet and not

> part of anything called a home and yet it is getting closer as my

> awareness improves and I begin to act within the frame of the scene

> rather than standing outside the bubble condemning plasticity as an

> observer and non-participant in the reality of living.  I guess it is

> about time as well -- that is part of the scene and the time is a

> chronological concept that i=92m beginning to live within at the edge

> moving inward in the notions of morning ritual and weekly ritual and

> starting in the scene of the bathroom in the beginning of the day and o=

f

> the week.

>=20

> Now this all started with an experiment which I call Experimental

> Showering which is recorded in a 17 page report with an accompanying

> soundtrack which might be exposed to the light of day sometime but is

> not that important now, here.  What is of some importance is that as a

> result of the experiments I have begun to find a sense of place that is

> approaching ritual sacredness and it is a place i=92m aware of and act =

to

> maintain ecologically and it is a place where I maintain myself

> ecologically and it is conventionally called a bathroom but for the tim=

e

> being it might be my temple.  And in this place of which I will begin t=

o

> describe the scenery at some point in this rambling I am beginning to

> undergo the necessary transformations to living within the spatial

> dimensions of a real environment in the sacred realm and the extensions

> to other spatial dimensions of varying kind, form, scene all the way I

> suppose to the profane but the sacred temple provides a place of

> grounding that connects me to living within the circle of accepted

> reality.

>=20

> I=92d said it started with scene.  Well when you rent an apartment as I

> have rented this place titled number 23, you don=92t really choose the

> scene, you don=92t create it.  The basic dimension of reality is provid=

ed

> to the tenant and the tenant -- myself -- must work within certain

> parameters and talents to create a sense of the sacred in the entirety

> of the place that is something like home.  The temple-like sacredness

> towards which the bathroom is moving is beyond home though it is within

> home it is in construction towards something beyond home and the entire

> apartment is in construction towards home and I am in construction

> towards becoming a human being.  Funny -- the snarl & sneer turn to

> smile -- in the FireWalk a giant kicks me into a patch of clover and I

> announce something about home -- but at the time and even to this day

> i=92ve lived outside of a reality which includes home some sort of

> wandering pilgrim on a quest for a proper roost but finding fault

> sufficient with each along the path and never considering Action that

> might improve the roost.

>=20

> So the scene is the home the the roost and the tired pilgrim under

> construction and the bathroom moving beyond home while the apartment

> moves towards home but what of the vocabulary of scenery.  See I still

> have not provided anything of an image proper and it is a circular path

> downward from the clouds where I have lived to even begin to provide

> description let alone detail of a particular place of a scene of a

> simple room in apartment 23.

>=20

> It is small.

> It is a bathroom.

> Can you see it

> in your mind?

> Do you have a

> picture

> of a bathroom

> BUT

> what if it is nothing

> like

> my bathroom

> what if your

> whole understanding of

> this story

> with bathroom as

> protagonist is blocked

> at the outset

> because the portrait in your mind of this particular

> bathroom

> is nothing at all like the particular bathroom - in Fact?

> And it would be my error

> not yours

> because as of yet i=92ve been unable to go very far,

> to go anywhere at all -- really -- in providing a detailed description

> of this bathroom

> this particular bathroom in this particular apartment which you only

> know by its

> number 23.

>=20

> And so if these meandering thoughts are to have a plot at all, in the

> outset at least, the plot is the discovery of the bathroom, the

> construction of the bathroom to the point of the sacred, the

> reconstruction of the apartment named =93Number 23=94 to something akin=

 to

> Home base in the great games of Kosmic tag my mind sometimes wanders

> through.  But for now at least, the bathroom is the protagonist and I a=

m

> all the other parts, the observer, the construction worker, the interio=

r

> design specialist.  It is a solitary story of a young man and a

> bathroom.  An odd story that I imagine it will be.

>=20

> I=92ve titled this meandering rambling prose Salina at the outset becau=

se

> in many ways even though so far I am writing about a bathroom in an

> apartment named #23 that COULD exist any many many places in the

> universe, this particular apartment named #23 and this particular

> bathroom within it are situated in a Place named Salina in a state

> called Kansas.  And this Place is significant to me personally in that

> it is the town in which I came of age - but perhaps never made it to

> what we call of age.  It seems that I somehow avoided the examination o=

n

> basic environmental awareness, of basis orientation which ought be part

> of any curriculum of living and I avoided and would have flunked and

> been continually held back.  So perhaps if the bathroom ever reaches th=

e

> point of shrine or temple, and the apartment named #23 reaches the poin=

t

> of being a home, then perhaps if my fingers are still hitting the keys

> the scene will broaden further and further to examine a scene named

> Salina.  At present my description of Salina is that one pretends that

> =93Eisenhower is still President and that the Pledge of Allegiance is a

> Good or Nice poem.=94  Several have wholeheartedly agreed with this not=

ion

> and said that it makes Salina seem more liveable with this realization

> -- But typical of my descriptions so far in the FireWalk and other

> writings it tells you nothing about Salina.  So there is a hope that

> this writer will eventually compleat his construction process in the

> bathroom and in the rest of the apartment named #23 and move outward to

> discover and detail a larger circle of his scene that is a town named

> Salina.

>=20

> It is a funny, backward twist of conception that I find myself in.  For

> a number of reasons that I will leave to the therapists of various

> characters, I am more aware and understanding of potential human action

> at the level of the universe, the globe, the nation than I am in of the

> various plots and subplots of regional and town life here in the Place

> where I supposedly came of Age.  Untwisting this knot seems an

> interesting project and hopefully a worthwhile tale to tell to y=92all

> whoever you are and where-ever you are.  And I imagine that the

> connections we find in my older writings where images are connected in

> archetypal symbols at best will be strengthened despite the separation

> that will be created by the characterization of this particular bathroo=

m

> and this particular apartment named #23 in a town named Salina.

>=20

> So back to the bathroom.  Up into now my description of a bathroom woul=

d

> be primarily focused on notions of function or purpose.  I would have

> been caught up in =93the idea of the bathroom=94 and my writing on bath=

rooms

> is relatively rare but there is no sense of any difference really

> between one bathroom and another because my mentality -- and it is a

> mentality -- was basically one of a bathroom is a bathroom much in the

> sense of if it quacks like a duck it is a duck.  Well such a sterile

> world this creates for anyone who even pretends to be a living human

> being.

>=20

> At the end of Colt-45 I proclaimed: =93I lived.=94  Any dead man can sa=

y

> that -- the epitath on his tombstone doing the talking.  To say that =93=

I

> am living=94 is a more difficult claim and requires stepping inside the

> portrait of the living ... the great play on the great stage that is th=

e

> living.  It might require actions -- although inaction itself may be a

> form of action -- but it needs a sense of scene of connection to the

> ground one walks on.  It is hard to be anything but a mis-fit when one=92=

s

> mind defies gravity and one=92s awareness allows one to walk five feet =

off

> the ground.

>=20

> So part of this whole construction process is about grounding.  And

> grounding is an important concept in notions of electrical engineering

> of which I am ignorant and grounding is a sense of rootedness in some

> pagan thought which i=92ve walked through five feet above the ground

> without being sufficiently impressed to take root.  It seems that the

> grounding, the rootedness, the bathroom is the temple the sacred place

> that connects so many of us in the universe in so many ways.  In the

> general sense, abstract sense, archetypal sense the bathroom is perhaps

> the place where all of us are close to alike in our use of a Place for =

a

> Function.  A bathroom is where rituals of elimination and cleansing

> occur.  This is true in most bathrooms that i=92ve witnessed regardless=

 of

> the scene.  BUT --

>=20

> the scene is part of the tale and in this instance the bathroom is the

> protagonist in a larger scene and I promise that at some point I will

> learn how to go beyond the brief descriptions offered so far concerning

> the characteristics of this particular bathroom in this particular

> apartment named #23 in this particular town named Salina.

>=20

> what is this madman up to now???  some may wonder this and I may be

> wondering this myself.  and to be honest since the tale is just

> beginning and the scene is still under construction and the action is

> the construction of the setting and the characters - so far at least -

> are the setting it is probably obvious to all that have made it thus fa=

r

> that the madman is up to something and the madman and the readers have

> no clue what it is.  Perhaps the particular bathroom in the particular

> apartment named #23 in the particular place called a town named Salina

> has a better sense of what is going on than the fingers striking the

> keys.

>=20

> Actually, this would not be surprising because the owner of these

> fingers has No Sense.  In many many respects he is a Moron.

>=20

> He is a Moron.

>=20

> Moron is a pejorative term with connotations that would make just about

> anyone including the owner of these fingers to shirk and hide from the

> reality of its label -- but it is not supposed to be a pejorative term.

> It is supposed to be a descriptive term -- merely a statement of Fact.

> And that is how it is used here.  The owner of these fingers accepts

> that he factually is a Moron.  This is a revelation.  The control of

> Moron may be impossible to break but it certainly cannot be broken

> without the acceptance of the Fact of the state of being named Moron.

>=20

> And yet despite the Fact that he is a Moron the bathroom allows him to

> be regardless of this status.  The bathroom is not prejudiced.

>=20

> So the bathroom is small.  maybe if I begin with something of a floor

> plan in words I can start to provide an image of what this particular

> bathroom appears to look like.  I will warn that I was a very very poor

> drafting student - along with all other aspects of junior high shop.  I

> lacked the precision necessary for such arts.  Also I must confess that

> I have nothing approximating a tape measure.

>=20

> So for purposes of tape measure I will use the picture in your mind of =

a

> fairly ordinary size bathtub.  It is crammed into the deep end of the

> room sideways taking up all available floor space.  So the width of the

> small bathroom is length of a fairly ordinary size bathtub and not a

> cubit more.  The rest is where description becomes more complicated for

> me and I will do my best to provide some sensation of the general floor

> plan.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:43:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Bill Morgan's book: First Printing sold out

 

I was chatting with Bill this morning, asking him how book sales were going.

He told me City Lights had already sold out the first run of 3,000 copies and

it's gone back for its second printing. I can certainly understand why.

 

I was reading it last night at bedtime, and again when I got up this morning.

Even the description I posted to Beat-L yesterday doesn't do the book

justice.

 

I think Bill's book is going to become a classic of Beat scholarship.

 

Again, it's titled "The Beat Generation in New York," and it was just

released a few days ago by City Lights. You can order a copy by calling them

at 415/362-8193.

 

This would make a great topic for discussion on our list. I hope a bunch of

you order it soon, and we can share the joy of reading it as we connect these

places to historic Beat events and personages.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:41:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: work in progress (comments appreciated) #2

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

RACE --- wrote:

>=20

> Of course, it isn=92t two dimensional.  This is a floor plan.  I=92ll t=

ry

> and figure out the height in some way soon.

>=20

> The length of the bathroom from back to the entrance wall is roughly

> turning the ordinary size bathtrub sizeways and then addeding some

> length.  How much additional length?  Not a lot but enough that the roo=

m

> doesn=92t seem to be a square or cube.  More than a shoebox - with the

> shoebox in either direction.  I think the best technical word will be

> for the moment -- a little longer.

>=20

> So that is the basic two dimensional floor plan.  As I said it is small

> because it also has the components of a bathroom in it.

>=20

> Before going beyond the floor plannish sense of the room i=92m going to

> move my brain back a bit to the subtitle here and attempt to explain ho=

w

> all this bathroom description has to do with a retrospective, a

> remembrance, a backward glance at the writings I did around five years

> ago collected under the title among other things FireWalk Thru Madness.

> In that writing I took folks through the door into chaos -- open wide -=

-

> without them having to risk their own psyches.  My psyche on the other

> hand was already quite at risk because the commentaries there were for

> the most part not fictional accounts but fairly real anecdotes and

> legendary tales of my factual experiences outside the world of fact.

>=20

> My writing now is somewhat of a twiting and reversing in the

> recollection process the retrospective will hopefully embrace creativit=

y

> once again but this time creativity will be a tool to return from chaos

> to a concrete contained world.  The doors to chaos once opened can

> always be re-entered, but one wants some choice in the when and where o=

f

> such events.  The bathroom is the first step in an interior design

> project a very concrete creative project that imagines moving the

> fragments of my psyche still left behind in the realms of chaos back

> into the present world of the living.  It is an experiment.  One never

> knows in such experiments what will suceed and fail.  But armed with a

> bathroom and the good old American creative method of trial and error I

> will try to create a protagonist out of the bathroom which can contain

> the memories of FireWalk retaining the art of the chaos without losing

> the stability and self-containment of concrete existence.

>=20

> Now did that make ANY sense to ANY one?

>=20

> Brief Dream of company.  Sal, Dean, and Carlo.  I was in the bathroom

> improving connections.  I pushed them out out out of the living room of

> apartment #23 saying =93The Bathroom isn=92t even ready Yet.=94  I don=92=

t know

> if they were real, and  I don=92t know if their feelings were hurt -- b=

ut

> the bathroom is the protagonist, at least until the wins chainge.  Old

> Bull Lee had the sense not to come to this particular apartment named

> #23 before the vortex released an invitation.

>=20

> So this is nearing the physical description of the particular bathroom

> in the apartment named #23.  The ceiling is taller than my outstretched

> arm.  It is probably taller than the width of the room and perhaps even

> the length.  So the room is nearly a cube.  And I rented the apartment

> with the bathroom in construction -- I frankly don=92t remember what wa=

s

> being done because I didn=92t pay attention to such matters with my hea=

d

> always in the clouds. -- and as things continue to unfold in the

> bathroom and the rest of the apartment named #23 and the universe named

> Salina I will gradually come back to the soul of the experience the

> bathroom where the designs are creating my way back from chaos.

>=20

> Now the cocoon that was my life just a few moments back or perhaps

> months had almost closed to the point of limiting my life to the living

> room couch.  The couch is where I lived.  Any other place might be an

> area I had to walk through from time to time, but I was completely and

> totally unaware of the environment around me and unaware of my

> ecological connection to these spaces and places.  I was merely passing

> thru.  Much like one passes thru the fire in the firewalk.  A lack of

> awareness leaves one far far far from anything akin to action.  At most

> the unaware function in the realm of motion -- like leaves falling from

> the trees -- but the awareness of ecological connection is not

> sufficient to produce action.  Action is an entirely separate stage.

> The bathroom in the apartment #23 was in the realm of motion.  I

> pissed.  I shit.  That was it.  I paid no attention to these processes

> and was unaware of the surroundings.  These were like leaves falling

> from the trees.  The place was not important except that it was a

> bathroom.  The action was related only to a purpose and not to an

> environment, a space, a place.  I walked out of the HERE of the Present

> everytime I left my couch.

>=20

> How did I move beyond the cocoon and into the awareness.  The first

> measure was not awareness but action.  Action led to awareness which le=

d

> to disgust and more awareness and action and the actions spilled into

> levels of awareness and action never dreamed of in the blackness of my

> couch cocoon existence.  The action was a form of contract I suppose

> between myself and another involving the bathroom.  I resolved to take =

a

> shower every morning for a week.  What follows will be the journal

> connected to that action and the subsequent awareness and actions in

> part most initially correlated to a Place called the bathroom in a

> particular place called My bathroom in a particular apartment named #23

> -- which I could not call MY apartment yet for the mine-ness involves

> more than paying the rent check.  Mine-ness involves the creative activ=

e

> of inventing one=92s order, one=92s home.  And the process may be days,

> weeks, months, years, one never knows with such notions of

> Transfiguration.  But with every drop of water from the shower -- the

> extent and direction of Transfiguration appears to alter the course of

> my awareness and encourage actions away from the cocoon.  So as Firewal=

k

> begins with a discussion of Fire as essential element -- this journey

> back begins with another essential element Water the power within it to

> soothe, cool, cleanse and douse(sp?) flames.

>=20

> The morning breaks each day and the water comes in the shaving, the

> brushing of teeth, the showering -- even the morning coffee.  This is

> how the bathroom in the particular apartment named #23 was discovered.

> The wakefulness creates an awareness of the immediate surroundings.  An=

d

> what did I discover?

>=20

> So far i=92ve only described the dimensions of the bathroom in general

> terms.  I believe you have a sense of where the shower is -- the tub

> seems too small for an adult and has the old chrome doors to mark off

> the showering area from the remainder of the room.  The tile in the

> shower is pink.  Not hot pink, a softer pink but pink nonetheless.  And

> the pink extends out of the shower to the sink area -- is this called a

> vanity?  I always thought that name hilarious -- and so the hygenic par=

t

> of the bathroom creates a mood in which the pink panther theme plays

> with one=92s brain.  It is definitely the shade of pink of the pink

> panther after a few years of fading.

>=20

> The toilet sits next to the vanity and completes the cramped space of

> the right wall.  It is a toilet.  I don=92t recall the brand -- though =

I

> do recall during the midst of the Firewalking that the brands of toilet=

s

> had some Cosmic significance.  Most toilets do have a name attached the=

y

> are simply ignored.  And I am resisting the urge to go investigate the

> name of the particular toilet in the particular apartment named #23 but

> the resistance may be futile.  It would be better to move on to a

> description of the wallpaper -- which may be rightly beyond describing.

> But the temptation is too great and so I will investigate the toilet=92=

s

> name and hope the symbolism does not disturb the current attempt to

> connect with a grounded little paradise in this place called My

> bathroom.

>=20

> It is an Anonymous toilet.  How fitting!!!!

>=20

> Typing about toilets and this particular toilet in this particular

> apartment named #23.  Maybe I should name my toilet.  I think I should

> but I must wander through thoughts of toilets a bit first and zoom

> through thoughts that pass my mind about toilets in general and this

> toilet in particular and maybe then I can find a decent proper name for

> MY toilet in MY bathroom in this particular apartment named #23.

>=20

> My bathroom and toilet have indoor plumbing.  No outhouse -- though

> sometimes the space seems somewhat cramped in my particular bathroom.

> This problem is easily resolved by sitting down on the toilet getting

> that toilet-seat-on-your-ass feeling -- closing your eyes -- tipping

> your head back slightly and think serious about the last time you were

> in an actual outhouse.  If you=92ve never been in an actual outhouse --

> just do it -- find one and sit there and shit there -- then you will

> understand.  After this contemplation, visualization game - bring your

> head forward, open your eyes, if you shit during the exercise make

> appropriate cleaning measures and look around and take in all the huge

> vast space in your bathroom compared to the vision of the outhouse and

> suddenly your bathroom will expand for you.  When I do this exercise on

> my Anonymous toilet in MY bathroom in the particular apartment named

> #23, it expands to feel like a warehouse size room -- at least!  So the

> first difference between outhouses and bathrooms is spatial -- the

> second difference is the miracle of modern plumbing.  Not to

> underestimate the miracle of plumbing, but it technically is the crampe=

d

> feeling in an outhouse which gives the sensation that one may

> permanently join the shit.

>=20

> Plumbing.  Who understands it -- raise your hand!  I know as much about

> the mechanics of plumbing as I do about Einstein=92s theory of maximize=

d

> minimum electrical currency -- perhaps I know more about the theorem in

> fact.  Plumbing is compleat and total magic.  Who can deny this?  Yet w=

e

> often take plumbing for granted.  Next time someone visits for a

> cocktail party -- a whole group -- say that you=92ve learned a magic

> trick.  Lead them all to the bathroom.  Once inside with the door

> closed, look very serious, hummm mantras, then gently stroke the flushe=

r

> on the toilet, smile and walk out.  It is more polite to leave the door

> open when leaving to help your guests find there way.  And if you reall=

y

> think that you can explain that trick to me and how it isn=92t magic, j=

ust

> go on and explain why the water swirls one way north of the equator and

> the other way south of the equator in plain Kansas english and then if

> you can explain that little trick, by then i=92ll have found something

> else you take for granted that is amazingly magical that will knock you

> on your ass.

>=20

> The next thing about this Anonymous toilet is four little devices which

> create perhaps the Greatest Controversy in the history of the Universe.

> They are called hinges.  The hinges work to allow the lid and seat of

> the toilet to either sit flat on the toilet basin or to sit upright in =

a

> ???perpinduclar??? relation to the basin.  There really is little

> controversy over the two hinges on the lid.  Without these two hinges

> anyone would have difficulty fulfilling the intimate functions of

> human-toilet relations.  The other two hinges, however, are rightly the

> cause of conflicts more powerful than a locomotive so to speak.  It is

> the old should the seat be up or down dilemma?

>=20

> The should the seat be up or down dilemma ought to be properly

> described.  There is a contingent of the human species that tends to

> absent mindedly leave the toilet seat and lid in the upright position

> after the act technically referred to as elimination of fluid from the

> urinary tract.  These are boys.  There is another contingent of the

> human species that DEMANDS that the toilet seat be placed down after

> every ritual act of pissing by the contingent known as boys.  These are

> girls.  This is obviously no simple conflict to mediate.

>=20

> Now girls insist that the seat be down because they have to pee sitting

> down and if the seat is up they might sit down and fall into the toilet

> basin -- Horror of Horrors!!!  This fear (paranoia?) is the primary

> basis for the demand that boys should put down the seat.

>=20

> Boys always answer this by the incredible explanation that all should

> memorize for such situations -- =93I forgot=94.  Now how can the girl a=

rgue

> with that.  She can get furious but she can=92t know if the boy really

> forgot or not.  If the boy really forgot than she may be brought to fee=

l

> some compassion for his absent-mindedness.

>=20

> Don=92t count on it!  While the contingent of the human species called

> girls are stereotyped as having unfathomable capacities for deep empath=

y

> and compassion, this is a false belief.  All one need do is observe the

> girl who catches the boy leaving the seat up to know that compassion is

> not an intrinsic quality.

>=20

> Now in my particular case, this great controversy is primarily academic

> since I live alone as a hermit and one of the most pleasant things abou=

t

> this lifestyle is the absolute abandon one feels at the freedom to not

> give a flying fuck where the damn toilet seat is.

>=20

> I admit that being a boy I am probably biased in this matter.  I hope

> that some day a girl will visit my apartment making the question a

> practical matters.  Some days I can ponder this possibility for hours

> plotting and planning my strategy in the Great Controversy of the Toile=

t

> Seat.  From this point of view, I have some words of advice for the

> boys.  Girls may wish to skip the next bit.  I will not be surprised if

> many a girl upon reading this will compleatly forget her compassionate

> nature and come searching for my particular apartment named #23 with

> fire in her eyes and prepared to murder me in cold blood.  I will take

> this risk partly because it offers the possibility of getting some girl=

s

> to come to my particular pad.

>=20

> So the first thing is don=92t count on the =93I forgot=94 line.  They a=

re on

> to it.  I recall visiting a bathroom in Rock Island when visiting a

> friend of mine who was part of the contingent of the human species

> called girl.  I was standing there pissing away and looked in front of

> me and there posted for every boy in huge letters was a declaration of

> the apartment policy that the toilet seat should be put down by boys

> after they pee.  I usually remembered to abide by this request, but

> being about the most absent-minded boy on the planet I must admit that

> more than once I left the bathroom with (ARGH!) the toilet seat

> upright.  Confronted by my friend I honestly said =93I forgot=94.  She

> hauled me into the bathroom - all her girlfriends stood at the bathroom

> door grinning with claws sharpened - she pointed at the notice and said

> =93Are you blind today?=94  Well, what was I to do.  I=92d been complet=

ely

> caught in some girl court over breach of toilet seat contract and the

> jury had their claws ready to inflict punishment.

>=20

> In such a situation, the mind can do wonderful things.  After a few

> moments I opened my mouth and words came out that I had not yet thought

> of.  They were:  =93I had my eyes closed.=94  Unfortunately, I was a bi=

t

> timid from the sight of all the claws and my voice shifted to a high

> soprano at the end of the sentence so it came out not as an explanation

> but as an interrogative =93I had my eyes closed?=94.  So they weren=92t=

 buying

> it.

>=20

> They were closing in.  So I did what any MAN does in a situation like

> this.  I relaxed my facial muscles and created the absolutely most

> pitiful puppy dog face ever presented to a jury of clawed girls in the

> history of bathrooms and hinged toilet seats.  I got off with severe

> reprimands.

>=20

> But I must warn that this was some time ago and given the psychic cult

> of the old girl friend connection, I imagine that more militant

> responses are now prepared for any boys attempting such a strategy.

>=20

> So next time I have a question or two.

>=20

> Question one.  Why can=92t you remember to put the seat down?  This one

> draws ire so come right back with this one: How can you trust that i=92=

ll

> remember to lift the toilet seat?  Us boys may absent-mindedly piss all

> over the toilet seat instead of in the basin and this is probably not

> something you want to place your exquisite ass on.  While this is

> compleatly logical and should be sufficient to stop all the girls in

> their tracks I have thought of another tactic.

>=20

> Question two.  Why is it more work for you to lower the toilet seat tha=

n

> for me to raise it?  You have gravity with you -- did you ever think of

> that honey?  (Use your discretion on the use of the word honey here - i=

t

> is punishable by death in discussions of the toilet seat controversy in

> some jurisdictions).  This too is perfectly logical.  Perhaps it will

> work.  It may not.

>=20

> If it doesn=92t the cause is probably hopeless.  But I have an idea -- =

go

> to your death in full glory.  This one will easily result in the boy=92=

s

> murder -- but it will be death with dignity.

>=20

> =93It is about damn time that we all think a minute about why woman can=

=92t

> start pissing standing up!!!!  All ya gotta do is stand directly over

> the basin.  It may take some practice and training but we all go throug=

h

> toilet training.  This will eliminate the greatest hindrance to gender

> equality in the history of the universe - the toilet seat controversy.

> Just stand up and let it shoot right down there in the bowl with

> gushes.=94

>=20

> Now if you aren=92t immediately killed, you may hear something about ho=

w

> it might make a mess.

>=20

> This will help you die with dignity.  If the girl says she might make a

> mess, say: =93boys really don=92t care much about a little piss splatte=

r

> around now and then -- we do it ourselves absent-mindedly even with the

> aiming ability of these serpents God gave us.=94

>=20

> So, as I said, the previous section while about toilets in general and

> perhaps about the Anonymous toilet in my particular bathroom in the

> particular apartment named #23 is basically designed for me to meet

> girls.  I figure either some girls will come intent on murder and I can

> melt them with my puppy-dog look (the best puppy-dog look in the world =

I

> can humbly add) OR more likely, the girls will murder so many boys that

> use these ideas in the Great Bathroom Controversy that the proportion o=

f

> girls to boys will continue to shift giving me better and better odds.

> In that event, I will deny writing the book and quickly run put the sea=

t

> down before the girls get a good look.

>=20

> For anyone interested, the seat is up right now.

>=20

> So I could just talk about the Anonymous toilet and toilets in general

> for days and days and I just might do that.

>=20

> [at this point i stopped writing and at the suggestion of several folks

> started reading Joyce's Ulysses for the first time <grin>]

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:46:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

 

In a message dated 97-10-24 09:37:20 EDT, brian writes:

 

<<

 this may be true in new jersey, but my best friend works at a b dalton in

 omaha and they keep all copies of OTR locked up in the safe because every

 copy that went onto the shelves was stolen.  >>

 

In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the

counter, which pisses me off.

 

At the other two stores, however, their shelves are lined with Kerouac titles

and third-party books about jack.

 

I can't understand what the deal is with people stealing these titles, but it

does seem to be an epidemic. Anyone know anyone who's stolen anything by

jack, WSB or Bukowski? I'd like to ask them why they do it.

 

Hardly seems Beat to me.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Work in Progress -- backchannel requests

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i really do want and appreciate any constructive criticisms and comments

about where this is headed.

 

i would HIGHLY recommend that these occur OFF-LIST through my "backdoor"

<beg> so as to save bandwidth for the Discussion of Beat Literature.

 

thanks,

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:51:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: BEAT WEB SITES

 

I think that might have been my post, unless someone else posted something

similar. I'll send it to you directly, since you're on AOL and the links will

come to you live.

 

But if anyone else missed it, let me know, and I'll be happy to send it.

Since the day I posted it, I've found about 30 more sites, as well, all worth

traveling to.

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:58:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Kevin Medline's guestbook

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

i've been such a moron that i haven't signed the guestbook yet at:

 

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html

 

But -- it seems to me that the Guestbook does probably provide an easy

solution to the question of referencing Beat-L or some other source as

to where one became aware of the Webpage.  So that might be a way of

providing credit and "advertising <smile>" to the Beat-L for it's role

in supporting many of the folks who both post at Kevin's page and who

visit it.

 

just a thought as I pack for wichita,

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:12:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: BEAT WEB SITES

In-Reply-To:  <971024094842_1369205712@emout13.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:51 AM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I think that might have been my post, unless someone else posted something

>similar. I'll send it to you directly, since you're on AOL and the links will

>come to you live.

>

>But if anyone else missed it, let me know, and I'll be happy to send it.

>Since the day I posted it, I've found about 30 more sites, as well, all worth

>traveling to.

>

>diane

 

Diane, could you post your latest updated list for the group? Thanks Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:33:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Farewell

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@sover.net>

In-Reply-To:  <199710240113.VAA27171@pike.sover.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

> richard i am sorry but i am not the only one who has expressed vexation

 towards

> you and your sense of entitlement. you've brought nothing to this list, and

 yet

> you insist on insulting our host, and he is our host and he is the list owner,

 and

> yes, i think you are reveling in you own little melodrama and i think you are

 an

> ass. that's a fact

> mc

>

 

I love beat literature and have studied it for a long time.  I thought I

had something to contribute to this list.  I thought I had introduced

some interesting threads, including several that are active now

(unpublished Kerouac, Kerouac and Barnes&Noble, a couple of others)

 

But if you say I have brought nothingto this list, I guess I should

believe you, because you are part of the clique, and nobody in it

disagrees with anything anyone else in it has to say.  Gerry Nicosia, one

of the most prominent members of this list, was on the verge of leaving

this list, because Bill Gargan had threatened to block his future posts

presumably if the tone of those posts did not suit him.  I wanted this

list to grow, and I didnt want him or anyone else leaving because of

flared up tempers.  Noone should be on this list who cannot respect the

other members of this list.  I didnt see anything wrong with the Estate

mudslinging.  Mudslinging is human nature.  I saw a lot wrong with Bill

Gargan reserving the right to block posts, when he has defined this list

as "unmoderated"

 

Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

understood my concerns.

 

So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

 

I just wanted a list where people can speak freely, without fear of

moderation, blockage, or disrespect.

 

In any case, I wont stay where I am not wanted.  I'll be unsubscribing at

the end of today.  Anybody who wants to discuss beats can email me at

rwallner@capaccess.org, or try my homepage (which I havent updated ina

while), at www.cyberspace.org/~kerouac.

 

I've not meant to be more anything more than a good participant here.

 

good bye...richard wallner

 

p.s. left my copy of Desolation Angels on the subway this morning and now

Im leaving the list...this has already been a lousy day *sigh*

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:56:08 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

(needs to be centered for full visual effect)

IN SOMNIA

 

   for the fourth day

   of the fourth year

   up here in north country

   i dwell in the land of

   in Somnia.

 

   in Somnia,

   the rules change:

   clocks run backwards

   as

   fast as ahead

   and collide,

   like two perfectly balanced arrows

   two exquistely aimed arrorws

   meeting in mid flight -

 

time

   collapses.

 

   i=92ve tried

   doctors

   pills

   special pillows

   herbal remedies

   warm milk!

   relaxation, meditation

   chants!

   (and furtive readings from the =91self help=92

   corner of local bookstore )

 

   hell,

   i=92ve even taken to ale again

   as my corner store is a

   redemption center!

 

   redemption through ales!

   they=92ve told me they miss my bottles,

   and my pockets of change for replacements

   (hell,

   i think  when abstinent,

   they preyed for my redemption!)

 

   but,

   nothing changes.

   Until, 72 hours into

   black night slowly

   inching its way to dawn,

   i look out my window

   and

   see the first snow fall

   of the season.

 

   i take this as an omen

   i take this as a vision

   i take this as a balm,

   and i thank the winds of change :

 

   with same disease as allen

   cooking in my body

   at times quiescent,

   other times raging,

    a life line without guarrentee

   a reminder of mortality,

 

   i

   suspect the gods are smiling on me

   giving me more time

   to store up against an early death

 

   so charged,

   writing always becomes electric,

   a force of its own :

   vowels

   consonants

   metaphors

   voices

ring in my head,

 

   so i spend time with poets

   who would rather

   stay dead:

 

   Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

   (i=92ve often wondered if i=92d follow their path),

 

   or that of ti Jean,

   Kerouac :

   it=92s a critical mass:

   one can drown in water, or in wine,

   nothing sublime about that.

 

   is it an affliction,

   these extra hours,

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

   or gift?

   (these extra hours

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

   i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

   hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

   i=92m still awake

   when daybreak changes snow to rain

   snow washed away

   in to the rain

 

   i=92m still awake

 

   i=92m still awake

 

   i=92m still awake

   oct 24, 97

   mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:23:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Farewell

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Richard, as one of the people who expressed considerable exasperation with

your latest output, I want to let you know that I don't hate you, I don't

want you off the list, I speak for myself only, I have made friends on the

list, marie is one of them, I never had any backchannell communications with

Bill. I do not agree with marie that you have not contributed to the list,

but I do agree that there is something very wrong in much of your

proclaiming and protesting that is, as someone pointed out, just awfully

inconsistent and quite unreal at times. Please Richard, have a better look

at what you are doing, whether you stay on the list or not. But if you do,

as I hope you will, get a better focus on what's real, please.

Take your statement in this post for example:

 

>No one should be on this list who cannot respect the

>other members of this list.

 

Now you are deciding that people who don't meet your standards shouldn't be

on the list. Come on, do you expect it possible that everyone respect

everyone else on a list?  All that is necessary is that minimal

consideration be given to the necessity for peaceful coexistense.

 

Good luck to you whatever you do

 

leon

-----Original Message-----

From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 8:30 AM

Subject: Farewell

 

 

>On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:

>

>> richard i am sorry but i am not the only one who has expressed vexation

> towards

>> you and your sense of entitlement. you've brought nothing to this list,

and

> yet

>> you insist on insulting our host, and he is our host and he is the list

owner,

> and

>> yes, i think you are reveling in you own little melodrama and i think you

are

> an

>> ass. that's a fact

>> mc

>>

>

>I love beat literature and have studied it for a long time.  I thought I

>had something to contribute to this list.  I thought I had introduced

>some interesting threads, including several that are active now

>(unpublished Kerouac, Kerouac and Barnes&Noble, a couple of others)

>

>But if you say I have brought nothingto this list, I guess I should

>believe you, because you are part of the clique, and nobody in it

>disagrees with anything anyone else in it has to say.  Gerry Nicosia, one

>of the most prominent members of this list, was on the verge of leaving

>this list, because Bill Gargan had threatened to block his future posts

>presumably if the tone of those posts did not suit him.  I wanted this

>list to grow, and I didnt want him or anyone else leaving because of

>flared up tempers.  Noone should be on this list who cannot respect the

>other members of this list.  I didnt see anything wrong with the Estate

>mudslinging.  Mudslinging is human nature.  I saw a lot wrong with Bill

>Gargan reserving the right to block posts, when he has defined this list

>as "unmoderated"

>

>Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

>against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

>this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

>understood my concerns.

>

>So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

>on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

>of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

>

>I just wanted a list where people can speak freely, without fear of

>moderation, blockage, or disrespect.

>

>In any case, I wont stay where I am not wanted.  I'll be unsubscribing at

>the end of today.  Anybody who wants to discuss beats can email me at

>rwallner@capaccess.org, or try my homepage (which I havent updated ina

>while), at www.cyberspace.org/~kerouac.

>

>I've not meant to be more anything more than a good participant here.

>

>good bye...richard wallner

>

>p.s. left my copy of Desolation Angels on the subway this morning and now

>Im leaving the list...this has already been a lousy day *sigh*

>.-

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:41:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

 

Hi, Bill -

 

You have my total support and appreciation for what you've accomplished with

Beat-L.....

 

Jeffrey Weinberg

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:42:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac t-shirts, anyone?

 

We've got a great new T-shirt of Jack Kerouac with artwork by subterranean

artist, R. Crumb. $19.95. Large - Extra Large - XXL...check it out at

www.waterrowbooks.com.

Thanks -

Jeffrey

WRB

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:20:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Farewell

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Don't leave.  This stuff is nerves only.

 

I think at first Richard came off as off the wall.  But when he made the

post about the "ownership" being a semantic issue, he acknowledged a lot (I

was going to make a similar post about what "ownership" of a list means and

was going to say essentially the same thing that Richard said) about what he

was trying to get across and toned down his rhetoric a lot and clearly

stated his viewpoints.  In other words he did come on strong but also took

the level down a notch later.

 

What else can I say.  Everyone stop acting like babies.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:23:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      i'm beginning to hear voices..

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

...and there's no one around...

WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???

 

thank the gods and goddesses:

all and whoever.

 

the best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on

the tracks.

i'm in dylan heaven....

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:25:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: sigh

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 09:08 PM 10/23/97 +0000, you wrote:

>well i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but

>mr walner:

>have you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and your

>hysterics and your egoism on this list by now?

>like you've been told before:

>it's bill's list.

>you are an ass, sir.

>g'night.

>mc

>

>

 

Maybe some people don't want you, MC,  on the list either but are polite

enough to not say it??????

 

(Not me--I am not speaking for myself.  I want everyone on the list on the

list.  I want MC on the list I want Walner on the list.  But I must point

out it is not polite to say things like this to another list member.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:26:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:30 PM 10/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Does anybody have a copy of Bughouse Blues by Gerald Nicosia for sale?

>I saw it on a first edition of Memory babe and I would like to read it.

>It's subtitle, as indicated by www.amazon.com is " An Intimate Portrait of

>Gay Hustling in Chicago." I am not sure of the publisher or year of

>publication. Thanks...Paul...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>

>

 

 

How much you offer for it???

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:18:56 -0700

Reply-To:     Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

   Love, Love talking here, major voice Love, Love, Love

 

Marie, there were some inspired long past bedtime times that I cherish in my

life and am looking forward to more of such inspirations to come

 

Love Love Love Non stop Love, No End Love

 

Dear marie, I am off to the City, Email incommunicado land for me.

I expect to see my buddy Q.R. and will have a drink with Sherri and Ann

marie before I come back this evening.

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 9:15 AM

Subject: pome

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:28:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Mr. Asher, dont overreact

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Who are you the debate team?????

 

He definately mellowed.   Saying soemthing like this is not attack on Bill

is him toning down.  I don't know why after he began to tone down (with his

semantics of "ownership" post people didn't begin to meet him half way.

 

At 08:20 AM 10/23/97 -0700, you wrote:

>> Diane De Rooy wrote:

>

>> Richard,

>>

>> This is so familiar. When you misstate something and people call you on

>> it, you revise history by saying "That's not what I said..."

>> Here's your text below. You did use the word, "censor." How is a person

>> supposed to respond to that powerful verb?

>>

>> >  "what have I done that is so bad?  All I was doing was trying to

>> > prevent the caretaker of this list from censoring one of its

>> > subsribers (Nicosia in this case) who was just trying to defend

>> > himself.  This was not a personal attack on Bill Gargan.  I am sure

>> > Bill Gargan is a hell of a guy and he does a terrific job with this

>> >  list normally. But nobody is perfect, and he overreacted here, and

>> > by his own admission overstated his

>> > ability to effectively police this list."

>>

>> Later, you used the verb "to police." It's very clear you're using the

>> power of these words to make your case against what you define as >

>> repression of free speech.

>>

>> When you argue with people, why don't you do everyone (including

>> yourself) a favor and quote yourself? Cut and paste from your own

>> letters, then respond.

>> That way maybe it will be clear to you just exactly what it was you

>> said.

>>

>> And, hey, Richard, there's no shame in being wrong. The shame is when

>> you can't admit it and move on.

>>

>> Let it go, Richard.

>

>And if we are talking about facts, Richard Wallner in several posts,

>including the one you quoted above says, "This was not a personal attack

>on Bill Gargan."  And yet in one of his posts, dated 10/22, he says, "It

>is a worthwhile list and doesn't deserve to be killed by a power hungry

>would-be moderator...Just sit back and watch the debate and if you can't

>stomach it Mr. Gargan, just hit delete."

>

>To me, calling someone a "power hungry would be moderator" is definitely

>a personal attack, and Levi Asher was right on target in his response.

>

>Richard, if you want to keeping arguing about this crap, do it with

>yourself, and let the rest of us get back to discussing beat literature.

>DC

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:32:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Who owns this list?

In-Reply-To:  <971024123924_-1393339047@emout05.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I second that!

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:

 

> Hi, Bill -

>

> You have my total support and appreciation for what you've accomplished with

> Beat-L.....

>

> Jeffrey Weinberg

> Water Row Books

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:59:17 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: J Stauffer

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jo,

 

Mea culpa.  My tone and word choice were uncalled for.  I respect Mr.

Nicosia's contribution to Beat scholarship.  I am not convinced that the

issue is as black and white as it appears to both you and GN, but my

mind is still open on this matter.  What I said was out of frustration

when Gerry appeared to be joining Mr. Wallner's quixotic campaign to

"liberate" the list from Bill--which I and an awful lot of others found

offensive.  I apologize for my tone.  I wish that Gerry's tone was more

temperate, but as one who has lived long enough to be sued myself I

understand the tendency to overstate.

 

Hopefully this tempest will die down and we will discuss the literature

we all love as friends, like we generally do.

 

James Stauffer

 

jo grant wrote:

>

> You write..." ...the babbling of Gerry Nicosia...a violation of rudimentary

> manners."

>

> That surprised me.

> (snip)

> I've seen Gerry Nicosia provoked to anger and IMO the anger justified,

 However, my

> criticism has been that he responded at all. Gerry may lose his cool, may

> get angry, but he doesn't babble--doesn't talk "indistinctly,

> meaninglessly, incoherently or like an idiot."

 

(snip)>

> As for the estate controversy, I believe the information we have been

> exposed to is important, but I do cringe when innuendo is substituted for

> facts and civility ignored.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:57:01 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: sigh

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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ok i know i took the bait, mr gallaher, but that was after several off list

 talks

with mr walner, which i kept confidential, as was his wish. i agree with

 leon,(that

i did not give mr walner credit for what he has done here) but i stand firm on

 my

exasperated small piece of turf. and yeah tim, i figger out of 200 so odd people

and me there are quite a few who surely do feel so.

it's all right, baby blue...

mc

 

Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> At 09:08 PM 10/23/97 +0000, you wrote:

> >well i swore i wouldn't take the bait again, but

> >mr walner:

> >have you ever stopped to thnk that most people probably don't want you and

 your

> >hysterics and your egoism on this list by now?

> >like you've been told before:

> >it's bill's list.

> >you are an ass, sir.

> >g'night.

> >mc

> >

> >

>

> Maybe some people don't want you, MC,  on the list either but are polite

> enough to not say it??????

>

> (Not me--I am not speaking for myself.  I want everyone on the list on the

> list.  I want MC on the list I want Walner on the list.  But I must point

> out it is not polite to say things like this to another list member.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:03:54 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

 

great line from "Big Sur":

 

"So I feed Alf the last of my apples which he receives with big faroff teeth

inside his big hairy muzzle, never biting, just muffing up my apple from my

outstretched palm, and chompling away sadly, turning to scratch his behind

against a tree with a big erotic motion that gets worse and worse till finally

he's standing there with erectile dong that would scare the Whore of Babylon

let alone me."

 

too funny!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:09:51 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Farewell

Comments: cc: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>,

          Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

....farewell is a sad sad news, i hope nobody had forced to leave

the beat-list, nor nobody can do thoughts vanishing in electronic

empty world pushing the del button, maybe i've lost my head for

ever, in the october wind....

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:58:00 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      road&field+reality&cut-up=#?

In-Reply-To:  <199710232023.QAA18971@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

#1              messy clouds

                        (silence)

                                a black cat

                                                (silence)

                                meeoww meeeow

                                        (silence)

                                a small farm

                                        in the country

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                        my heart

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

#2              messy clouds

                                        (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                                a small farm

                                        in the country

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                        my heart

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

        YEP!

                yep!

                        YEP!

                                yep!

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

#3              messy clouds

                                        (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                        my heart

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

#4              messy clouds

                                        (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

#5                                      (silence)

                                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                (silence)

                        (silence)

                                (silence)

                (silence)

        (silence)

(silence)

        (silence)

                (silence)

                                (silence)

                                        (silence)

                        (silence)

                (silence)

(silence)

 

 

---

Rinaldo

Autumn Lost in Venetian Lands

24th october 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:14:10 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (FWD) Zappa says...

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:06:48 -0400 (EDT)

>From: YokoMofo@aol.com

>Subject: Zappa says...

>

>

>It would be easier to pay off our national debt than to neutralize the

>long range effects of our national stupidity.

>

>Life is like high school with money.

>

>It is always advisable to become a loser if you can't become a winner.

>

>There will never be a nuclear war -- there's too much real estate

>involved.

>

>Anything played wrong twice in a row is the beginning of an arrangement.

>

>Seeing a psychotherapist is not a crazy idea -- it's just wanting a

>second opinion of one's life.

>

>Thanks to our schools and political leaderhip, the US has an

>international reputation as the home of 250 million people dumb enough

>to buy The Wacky Wall Walker.

>

>People who think of music videos as an art form are probably the same

>people who think Cabbage Patch Dolls are a revolutionary form of soft

>sculpture.

>

>The only thing that seems to band all nations together is that their

>governments are universally bad.

>

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:36:39 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: a Barnes and Nobel employee speaks out.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

>

>

> In Seattle, at one of the three B&Ns I've frequented, they have nothing on

> the shelves for Kerouac, Burroughs, Bukowski, and a few others. They claim

> they can't keep them from being stolen. They won't even keep them behind the

> counter, which pisses me off.

>

 

Same goes for Vancouver, it's gotten realy bad in recent years. Nearly

all bookstores, except Chapters (B & N knockoff), have Bukowski,

Kerouac, Burroughs, Hunter S. Thompson, and sometimes Ginsberg either

behind or next to the counter. I talked to an owner of one place and was

told Bukowski and Kerouac thefts are increasing all the time. That's

really strange...in all my obsessing with Kerouac, Buk, WSB, & HST I

never once even considered the remote possibility of swiping one of

their books. It's sort of fascinating, the fact that there's such a

trend everywhere.

 

Adrien

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:45:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Book Announcement

 

Dear Bill:

I've asked City Lights to send you a review copy of the book, if you don't

get it in the next week or so please let me know, I don't know how quickly

they act on these requests but I hope it will be soon.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:00:46 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: road&field+reality&cut-up=#?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

bellisimmo, rinaldo: i have missed you!

marie

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> #1              messy clouds

>                         (silence)

>                                 a black cat

>                                                 (silence)

>                                 meeoww meeeow

>                                         (silence)

>                                 a small farm

>                                         in the country

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                         my heart

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

> #2              messy clouds

>                                         (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                                 a small farm

>                                         in the country

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                         my heart

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>         YEP!

>                 yep!

>                         YEP!

>                                 yep!

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

> #3              messy clouds

>                                         (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                         my heart

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

> #4              messy clouds

>                                         (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

> #5                                      (silence)

>                                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                 (silence)

>         (silence)

> (silence)

>         (silence)

>                 (silence)

>                                 (silence)

>                                         (silence)

>                         (silence)

>                 (silence)

> (silence)

>

> ---

> Rinaldo

> Autumn Lost in Venetian Lands

> 24th october 1997

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:36:14 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re: pome

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Marie,

 

     I am with you all the way on this poem.

     First snow fall here in Utah as well.

     Coming at the end of a week of tired fits

     and open-eyed nights, your words ring

     true.

 

     Thanks for the language blanket.

 

     Sean D. Young

 

 

 

(needs to be centered for full visual effect)

IN SOMNIA

 

   for the fourth day

   of the fourth year

   up here in north country

   i dwell in the land of

   in Somnia.

 

   in Somnia,

   the rules change:

   clocks run backwards

   as

   fast as ahead

   and collide,

   like two perfectly balanced arrows

   two exquistely aimed arrorws

   meeting in mid flight -

 

time

   collapses.

 

   i've tried

   doctors

   pills

   special pillows

   herbal remedies

   warm milk!

   relaxation, meditation

   chants!

   (and furtive readings from the `self help'

   corner of local bookstore )

 

   hell,

   i've even taken to ale again

   as my corner store is a

   redemption center!

 

   redemption through ales!

   they've told me they miss my bottles,

   and my pockets of change for replacements

   (hell,

   i think  when abstinent,

   they preyed for my redemption!)

 

   but,

   nothing changes.

   Until, 72 hours into

   black night slowly

   inching its way to dawn,

   i look out my window

   and

   see the first snow fall

   of the season.

 

   i take this as an omen

   i take this as a vision

   i take this as a balm,

   and i thank the winds of change :

 

   with same disease as allen

   cooking in my body

   at times quiescent,

   other times raging,

    a life line without guarrentee

   a reminder of mortality,

 

   i

   suspect the gods are smiling on me

   giving me more time

   to store up against an early death

 

   so charged,

   writing always becomes electric,

   a force of its own :

   vowels

   consonants

   metaphors

   voices

ring in my head,

 

   so i spend time with poets

   who would rather

   stay dead:

 

   Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

   (i've often wondered if i'd follow their path),

 

   or that of ti Jean,

   Kerouac :

   it's a critical mass:

   one can drown in water, or in wine,

   nothing sublime about that.

 

   is it an affliction,

   these extra hours,

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling

 

   or gift?

   (these extra hours

   dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

 

   i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

   hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

 

   i'm still awake

   when daybreak changes snow to rain

   snow washed away

   in to the rain

 

   i'm still awake

 

   i'm still awake

 

   i'm still awake

   oct 24, 97

   mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     Marie,

 

     same plane.

     dylan CD all around.

     alternating with Harry Smith's folk anthology.

 

     many voices. lost times

 

     AH

 

     SDY

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: i'm beginning to hear voices..

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    10/24/97 1:23 PM

 

 

...and there's no one around...

WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???

 

thank the gods and goddesses:

all and whoever.

 

the best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on

the tracks.

i'm in dylan heaven....

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:25:02 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: pome

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks, and good to meet you sean! (i have to say i'm liking this pome a

lot)

mc

 

Sean Young wrote:

 

>      Marie,

>

>      I am with you all the way on this poem.

>      First snow fall here in Utah as well.

>      Coming at the end of a week of tired fits

>      and open-eyed nights, your words ring

>      true.

>

>      Thanks for the language blanket.

>

>      Sean D. Young

>

> (needs to be centered for full visual effect)

> IN SOMNIA

>

>    for the fourth day

>    of the fourth year

>    up here in north country

>    i dwell in the land of

>    in Somnia.

>

>    in Somnia,

>    the rules change:

>    clocks run backwards

>    as

>    fast as ahead

>    and collide,

>    like two perfectly balanced arrows

>    two exquistely aimed arrorws

>    meeting in mid flight -

>

> time

>    collapses.

>

>    i've tried

>    doctors

>    pills

>    special pillows

>    herbal remedies

>    warm milk!

>    relaxation, meditation

>    chants!

>    (and furtive readings from the `self help'

>    corner of local bookstore )

>

>    hell,

>    i've even taken to ale again

>    as my corner store is a

>    redemption center!

>

>    redemption through ales!

>    they've told me they miss my bottles,

>    and my pockets of change for replacements

>    (hell,

>    i think  when abstinent,

>    they preyed for my redemption!)

>

>    but,

>    nothing changes.

>    Until, 72 hours into

>    black night slowly

>    inching its way to dawn,

>    i look out my window

>    and

>    see the first snow fall

>    of the season.

>

>    i take this as an omen

>    i take this as a vision

>    i take this as a balm,

>    and i thank the winds of change :

>

>    with same disease as allen

>    cooking in my body

>    at times quiescent,

>    other times raging,

>     a life line without guarrentee

>    a reminder of mortality,

>

>    i

>    suspect the gods are smiling on me

>    giving me more time

>    to store up against an early death

>

>    so charged,

>    writing always becomes electric,

>    a force of its own :

>    vowels

>    consonants

>    metaphors

>    voices

> ring in my head,

>

>    so i spend time with poets

>    who would rather

>    stay dead:

>

>    Woolfe, Sexton, Plath

>    (i've often wondered if i'd follow their path),

>

>    or that of ti Jean,

>    Kerouac :

>    it's a critical mass:

>    one can drown in water, or in wine,

>    nothing sublime about that.

>

>    is it an affliction,

>    these extra hours,

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling

>

>    or gift?

>    (these extra hours

>    dark, quiet, soft snow falling)

>

>    i wonder in the dark, quiet, snow falling

>    hours as the horizon point is touched by flame

>

>    i'm still awake

>    when daybreak changes snow to rain

>    snow washed away

>    in to the rain

>

>    i'm still awake

>

>    i'm still awake

>

>    i'm still awake

>    oct 24, 97

>    mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:22:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

 

hello Beatlist!

 

not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean. every

 now and

then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for school,

 and somebody

else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy ass,

 do the work

yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information, but i

 peronally

do not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine students

 might wanna

use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books they

 want some

"real live" perspectives.

 

whatever.

Eric S.

On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis

<kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

 

> running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

> i'll help.

> junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

> started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

> he was so busy getting drunk and high.

> all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

> class.

> one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

> cockroach and started talking to him.

> it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

> and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

> great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

> hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 22:43:44 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      in memory of Beat-L archive 95,

              blues of bob dylan and robert creeley

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971024105410.10655B-100000@cap1.capaccess .org>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        all these people that you mentioned

                        yes i know them they're quite lame

                        i had to rearrange their faces

                        and give them all another name

                        right now i can't read too good

                        don't send me no more letters no

                        not unless you mail them from

                        desolation row -- bob dylan

 

> GET BEAT-L LOG9505 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9505" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9506 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9506" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9509 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9509" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9508 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9508" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9510 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9510" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9511 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9511" is not yet available.

> GET BEAT-L LOG9512 BEAT-L

File "BEAT-L LOG9512" is not yet available.

 

                        they are taking all my letters, and they

                        put them into fire.

 

                                        i see the flames, etc.

                        but do not care, etc.

 

                        they burn everything i have, or what little

                        i have. i dont' care, etc.

                                                                --robert creeley

 

i remain speechless --rinaldo rasa

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:45:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

, One day some professor offer us as a resource for his students, and

then he got pissed when i wasn't sweet , the student asked very general

questions and and by that any sensible answer would be vague and

general. Now i can get my teeth into a good question but general

questions make me bilous.  but i reaaly don't think you should assume i

will be sweet.  i will make fun of some one, especially someone that

hasn't hit the library at all. I have often had people refer to me as an

excellant resource for a variety of things including hot sex, a place to

stay, building material but i rebel when a government paid teacher gives

me away. Now if i get a tee shirt or a signed book i can be sweet but

other than that i am pretty comfortable being a bitch, and if necessary

an emascalating bitch.  Of course that is not sweet. I do love sweet

guys. I think men aught to be sweet. They look good and sound good in

their mentor patronizing role. I look better as a hard mouthed bitch

with an attitude. love

patricia

Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

>

> hello Beatlist!

>

> not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean.

 every

>  now and

> then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for school,

>  and somebody

> else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy ass,

>  do the work

> yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information, but

 i

>  peronally

> do not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine students

>  might wanna

> use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books they

>  want some

> "real live" perspectives.

>

> whatever.

> Eric S.

> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis

> <kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

>

> > running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

> > i'll help.

> > junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

> > started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

> > he was so busy getting drunk and high.

> > all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

> > class.

> > one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

> > cockroach and started talking to him.

> > it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

> > and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

> > great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

> > hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:55:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      I dedicate myself.

 

Somewhere in teh jumble that is teh digest form of teh beat-l mailing list,

someone wrote about JOhnSampas dedicating newly-publsihed Kerouac works teh

way he thought Jack would have.  Did Jack dedicate his works that were

publsihed while he was alive?  Who were some of the folks he dedicated his

books to, if he did dedicate?  I find this intersting, knowing my own

reasosn for dedicating stories I write to people.

 

Toodles...

 

Diane. (H)

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:06:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      beat is as beat does.

 

in reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote something

to the effect of that not being very beat.  but from what i remember of OTR,

they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more beat

than stealing Kerouac books?  I'm not _condoning_ stealing his books, but

it doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.

 

Diane.  (one of the other ones)

 

--

I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia Plath

 

Diane M. Homza                                   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:10:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>

Subject:      Another Poema

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

     thought I'd send another poem at the end of a long and spiteful week.

 

     peace be upon you all

 

     Sean D. Young

 

     ps (thanks Marie and Rinaldo for yr poems.)

 

     Question: What's the most important thing for a poet to remember?

     Answer: "Not to hurt anyone"

                        - Gregory Corso @ Naropa workshop 7/94

     ------------------------------------------------------------------

     Poem:

     ------------------------------------------------------------------

 

     SUBLIMATION

 

     Teething in the wreckage

     in relation to - stranger music

     -- tough bars with you in them

     loosening my scarf -

        to a new meaning

     for new skin

        in the emperor's clothes

     from the bunker

        to the avenue's bosom

     just then - words -

        "This is true -

     you are not afraid"

 

     it is this close

        open palm

                on spinal shutters

     to the walk home - it is

        longer in solitude

                yet blissed

     late summer

        after storm

                the walk IS long

     the air of the lake

        sweet with brine and

                wet grass

     the voice is changing

        WE becomes I

                I becomes YOU

 

     it is this close

        the air is lifting

                the orange clouds

     the drums call from

        boyhood

     -when all there was

        -was music

                in the dawn

     and the twitch

        of feeling

                "I am Loved"

        (gone?)

 

     Until now

        here - the feeling

                is deep opening

                        subtle and awake

     and the visage

        before me and

                the Laundromat

                        on L street and 6th

     is grace -

        a humble caress -

     that man walking

        down the street

                desolate -

                        is loved -

                does he know it?

     "Look up"

        I could say

                but I offer a sigh -

     We walk our own way

        to the castle

                and besides

     the real destination is within -

 

     between two people

        it is a mutual diving

                for the glistening stone

                        inside

     a clear bell

        to silence

                the cacophony

 

     - no other voices here -

 

     it is the blood

        on the lips

     it is the body

        between the teeth

 

     it is the real work

        of the opening palm

     it is the kneeling

        it is the embrace

     it is the kiss

        it is the healing

 

     Leave the wreckage

        it is at rest

                with me

     here, now

        we dine at the splendid table

     this is

     the real story afterall

                off of the page

     through the senses

        from the teething

                to the walk home.

     ------------------------------------

     -------- Sean D. Young 7/17/96

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:14:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01:23 PM 10/24/97 +0000, Marie Countryman wrote:

 

>WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY

>CD PLAYER???

 

Hmm, good question.  Bob starts his US fall tour this

evening in Starkville, MS, and here's to the man introducing

some of his new material!!!

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:16:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bill Morgan's book: First Printing sold out

 

Dear Diane;

Wow, you've said such great things it will be hard to live up to the praise.

 Thanks for the kind words, it is certainly nice of you to say them.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:19:14 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

ROFLMAO!!!!! Patty  you're too much!!!

 

ciao,

sherri

 

----------

From:   BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Patricia Elliott

Sent:   Friday, October 24, 1997 1:45 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

, One day some professor offer us as a resource for his students, and

then he got pissed when i wasn't sweet , the student asked very general

questions and and by that any sensible answer would be vague and

general. Now i can get my teeth into a good question but general

questions make me bilous.  but i reaaly don't think you should assume i

will be sweet.  i will make fun of some one, especially someone that

hasn't hit the library at all. I have often had people refer to me as an

excellant resource for a variety of things including hot sex, a place to

stay, building material but i rebel when a government paid teacher gives

me away. Now if i get a tee shirt or a signed book i can be sweet but

other than that i am pretty comfortable being a bitch, and if necessary

an emascalating bitch.  Of course that is not sweet. I do love sweet

guys. I think men aught to be sweet. They look good and sound good in

their mentor patronizing role. I look better as a hard mouthed bitch

with an attitude. love

patricia

Eric Craig Sapp wrote:

>

> hello Beatlist!

>

> not to disrepect anyone, but i think these kinds of things are a bit mean.

 every

>  now and

> then somebody will ask a basic question to the list, mention it is for

school,

>  and somebody

> else will invariably tap out a respose to the effect of "listen, you lazy

ass,

>  do the work

> yourself!" now of course students shouldnt rely on others for information,

but

 i

>  peronally

> do not think the responses should be hostile. in many cases i imagine

students

>  might wanna

> use this list as an educative resource, in addition to the stuff in books

they

>  want some

> "real live" perspectives.

>

> whatever.

> Eric S.

> On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:41:46 -0500 Bob Lewis

> <kokupokit@JUNO.COM> wrote:

>

> > running late on writing a paper? not enough time to read the book?

> > i'll help.

> > junky is a story of a college kid who started drinking too much, and

> > started smoking pot. he would always forget to do his studying, because

> > he was so busy getting drunk and high.

> > all his friends would call him junky because he was too drunk to go to

> > class.

> > one day when he was sitting at his computer, the screen turned into a

> > cockroach and started talking to him.

> > it ends with him getting kicked out of school, becoming an exterminator,

> > and getting hooked on the powder used to kill the insects.

> > great book. if you ever get a chance, you should read it.

> > hope i was a big help!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:05:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

patty- you hit the nail on the head.

obviously, our student in need hadn't made an effort to even read the

book, and i would guess that she found the beat list and subscribed for

the sole purpose of trying to get some quick easy info she could use

verbatim in her paper.

if said paper was due this week, i'm sure she has long since forgotten

this list.

now, on the other hand, had she read the book, and offered some insight-

anything at all, such as hey, this cut-up stuff is interesting. can

anybody give me any info on how he started using it, etc etc, i would

have been more than happy to give an opinion.

but as it turned out, she sounded clueless on the subject, and therefore

i had no choice but to be a smartass about it.

so if our student in need is still on the list- defend yourself! prove to

us that you weren't just using us!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:10:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Lytle <e.lytle@SARCOS.COM>

Subject:      Re: beat is as beat does.

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Theft is very Beat.  I think the phenomenon is that it 's just happening

to Kerouac and friends.

 

It seems to me that if JK's books are getting lifted,  then Danielle

Steele and Michael Crichton ought to be flying off the shelves.  I bet

you'll never have to look for them behind the counter.

 

-E

 

 

 

 

Diane M. Homza wrote:

 

> in reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote

> something

> to the effect of that not being very beat.  but from what i remember

> of OTR,

> they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more

> beat

> than stealing Kerouac books?  I'm not _condoning_ stealing his books,

> but

> it doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.

>

> Diane.  (one of the other ones)

>

> --

> I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia

> Plath

>

> Diane M. Homza

> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:30:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      return of the Barnes and Nobel beatnik.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey folks,

        i am glad to see that some of the B+N stores aren't succumbing to

fascism in regards to not shelving beat books. The stores that do will be

missing out. I convinced my manager to order some copies of Burroughs'

"The Adding Machine." These essays are great and this is one of my fav

top 3 books by Bill. The book is right next to J.G. Ballards' book of

essays which include some praise for Bill. Two great literary giants next

to one another :) One surprise to come in without me ordering was a

collection of Gary Snyder prose.

        The only books that have been getting stolen are the new Anne

Rice "Violin" and Tupac Shakar's tribute photobook. Personally i'd be

glad if more beat books were stolen only because people would be breaking

the law and going out of their way to grab some good stuff.

        COMMERCIALISM ALERT: why hasn't anyone printed a beat generation

calender, using some of Allen's photos? Or perhaps a small desk calender

with a quote from a beat source for each day?

                                                jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:30:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: beat is as beat does.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:10 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Theft is very Beat.  I think the phenomenon is that it 's just happening

>to Kerouac and friends.

>

 

Please let people know when you will be gone from your house for a long

period of time and where you keep your valuables.  Also please the leave the

door open.

 

And also, your car.  Please leave the keys in it and the door unlocked for

fellow beatniks to steal.

 

 

>It seems to me that if JK's books are getting lifted,  then Danielle

>Steele and Michael Crichton ought to be flying off the shelves.  I bet

>you'll never have to look for them behind the counter.

>

>-E

>

>

>

>

>Diane M. Homza wrote:

>

>> in reference to stolen kerouac books from bookstores, diane wrote

>> something

>> to the effect of that not being very beat.  but from what i remember

>> of OTR,

>> they stole gas, they stole food, they stole cars: what could be more

>> beat

>> than stealing Kerouac books?  I'm not _condoning_ stealing his books,

>> but

>> it doesn't seem all that strange a phenomenon.

>>

>> Diane.  (one of the other ones)

>>

>> --

>> I should have loved a thunderbird instead.                    --Sylvia

>> Plath

>>

>> Diane M. Homza

>> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:38:07 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 04:55 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Diane Homza wrote:

>Somewhere in teh jumble that is teh digest form of teh beat-l mailing list,

>someone wrote about JOhnSampas dedicating newly-publsihed Kerouac works teh

>way he thought Jack would have.  Did Jack dedicate his works that were

>publsihed while he was alive?  Who were some of the folks he dedicated his

>books to, if he did dedicate?  I find this intersting, knowing my own

>reasosn for dedicating stories I write to people.

>

>Toodles...

>

>Diane. (H)

>

Hi, Diane,  Oct 24, 1997

        I'm going to answer this really fast, from memory, since I'm so busy.

        Among people Jack dedicated books to were the Chinese poet Han Shan,

his Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife

Stella Sampas.

        John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

        Best, Gerry Nicosia

        P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a Czech name? (I'm half.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:01:06 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      t-shirts

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                        Oct 24, 1997

Hello!

        Several of you have indicated interest in ordering t-shirts, but

never sent the confirmation I asked.  I am only holding t-shirts for those

who have confirmed that they are sending check.  I am however holding the

last KEROUAC ON THE ROAD for Marlene awaiting her confirmation, soon, please!

        The last ON THE ROAD is spoken for even if Marlene lets her

reservation go.

        There are, however, still a few Kerouac and Kerouac (Jack and Jan)

t's that have not been reserved.  SO if you're one of those who were

interested, suggest you confirm soon!

        THANKS.  --Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:47:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>

>Hi, Diane,  Oct 24, 1997

>        I'm going to answer this really fast, from memory, since I'm so busy.

>        Among people Jack dedicated books to were the Chinese poet Han Shan,

>his Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife

>Stella Sampas.

>        John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

>OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

>in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

>        Best, Gerry Nicosia

>        P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a Czech name? (I'm half.)

 

> I thought it was "presumably" because Some of the Dharma began as notes to

Allen Ginsberg about Buddhism...does it not make sense to dedicate the whole

bloody book to him?

      From a letter to Allen Ginsberg from Kerouac dated "early May 1954":

 

  "for your beginning studies of Buddhism, you must listen to me carefully

and implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching the Formulas of Objective

Correlation on a blackboard in Princeton."

 

  And later...

 

    "Now Allen, as Neal or Carolyn can tell you, last February I typed up a

100-page account of Buddhism for you, gleaned from my notes, and you will

see proof of that in sevral allusions....I will send it importantly stamped,

it's the only copy, we must take special care with it right? "Some of the

Dharma" I called it,and it was intended for you to read in the selva [sic]."

 

     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

THe Kerouac Quarterly...

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:36:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  <199710242238.PAA29730@iceland.it.earthlink.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Gerald Nicosia wrote:

 

>         John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

> OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

> in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

 

Well, the book did start out as notes on Buddhism for Ginsberg, so he's

not so far off in dedicating it as such.  Its interesting how easy it is

to see this early on in the book.  I did a review of it this week for my

Religion in America class focusing on it as a religious text (or text on

religion depending on your point of view).  A lot of it, toward the

beginning, is just that.  Notes and quotes on Buddhist texts Kerouac was

reading.  Bibliogrphies included!  He makes comments on them and, in quite

a few points, its easy to interpret them as specifically for Ginsberg.  As

it progresses he gets farther away from that and his comments are more

addressed to whomever + Ginsberg.  I'd like to get some more impressions

from people if anyone happens to have waded through it by now.  I think it

would make a great insert between Dharma Bums and Desolation Angels.  Or

better, to begin 2/3 of the way through Dharma Bums  and read through most

of Book One of Desolation Angels.  Its a great way to get into Kerouac's

head during a specific period of his life.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971024234742.006ac2a0@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>

>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

 

Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off a post that said much

the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

it.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:44:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  <1.5.4.32.19971024234742.006ac2a0@pop.pipeline.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

 

Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off  a post that said much

the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

it.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:45:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      sorry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sorry that got sent twice, my mail locked up and went buggy while sending

it.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:55:17 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>

Subject:      jack

 

i don't know

maybe since i'm younger i can look at all the bitching and complaining lately

 

with a certain degree of humor

everyone (as an overgeneralization) is being Absurd

 

you think if we took the legality of this whole affair, maybe resolve our

puny little differences.........

 

and focus on Jack, only Jack

 

not who we think Jack is.....or what we think Jack would want....or what we

think should become of the legacy of Jack......

 

pay more attention to his words(which, in some cases, it seems like some of

you may do to much)

 

jack is dead.......we as a collective has a fascination with dead

idols........but we must learn when to stop intruding upon their lives (i.e.

- this fascination with Jack's "last letter")........

 

if i were a dead icon, i'd be pissed over such infantile arguing, no matter

how much it's in the name of jack or his estate or literature or any

reason.....

 

but i am young and immature and uninformed and ignorant and this is all

opinion

continue to kick up the dust in the sandbox......

i'll just read jack and enjoy

 

brian

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:05:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!/I hate it when that happens

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bob Lewis wrote:

 

<snip> and therefore i had no choice but to be a smartass about it.

<snip>

 

Bob:

 

I hate it when that happens.  :-)

 

I missed the first post.  But I read your post just the way you say

here.  I LOL when I read it and thought, well, if someone is paying

attention they will see that we are not here to do their work for them.

But, I hate it when someone takes away my options.  Kinda like Gregory

Peck in the The Last Gunfighter, or Brownsville Girl.  Hey Diane, if you

missed Brownsville Girl by Sam Shepard and Bob Dylan, you ought to pick

up Greatest Hits III by Dylan and check that out.  It is a masterpiece,

"The only thing we knew for certain about Henry Porter is that his name

wasn't Henry Porter"  And "You always said that people don't do what

they believe in, they just do what' s most convienent and later on they

repent."  Those are paraphrases.  Oh well, I have wandered far afield.

 

You go Bob.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:14:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jonathan Pickle <jrpick@MAILA.WM.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Reading all these posts about people stealing Kerouac books.  It reminds me

of an English teacher I had in High school who had her copy stolen out of

her room.  We talked that Kerouac wasn't as well known where we were from -

a small town in central Texas.  The fact that someone had heard of Jack was

amazing.  Then I told her that the st. could have just as easily taken a

book by Frost or somone else more known.  Instead they took OTR.  I looked

at her and said "Perhaps it's not the worst thing that could have happened,

at least somebody out there will be reading Jack."  I left the room

afterwards and envisioned a great society that passed out free copies of

OTR to all the youth of America.  I smiled and went home to read _The

Dharma Bums_.

 

Jon

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:39:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:44 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

>

>Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

>been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

>paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off  a post that said much

>the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

>want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

>can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

>it.

 

   I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at the end of his letter it means

nothing. Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through

the offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like

being stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour. Verily, I have no

apprehension for publicly addressing one who slanders me in public. There

are some who say I should be more careful not to alienate those who are in

the so-called "Anti-Estate" camp so that they may not buy my quarterly. If

that is their choice then so be it...the contents of The Kerouac Quarterly

and those who contribute to it are either not aware, concerned, or care

about the kind of propaganda that passes for commentary here on the Beat-L.

They are only devoted to the serious scholarly study of Jack Kerouac and his

works. The Kerouac Quarterly will be around for a long time and will be a

place committed solely to the preservation of Kerouac scholarship. Surely,

the chosen few who remain on the "other" side will not make or break such a

commitment from myself and others who care to see such a journal be founded.

I have offered the journal as a sample copy for those who doubt my veracity,

until then, expect to see such negative and untrue comments emitted from the

"other" side be attended to with all haste. Simply, Paul of The Kerouac

Quarterly....

          For those who would like a sample copy go to:

 

  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html

 

                             UPDATED TODAY!!!!

 

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:27:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>>

>>Hi, Diane,  Oct 24, 1997

>>        I'm going to answer this really fast, from memory, since I'm so busy.

>>        Among people Jack dedicated books to were the Chinese poet Han Shan,

>>his Doctor friend Danny DeSole, his editor Ellis Amburn, and his third wife

>>Stella Sampas.

>>        John Sampas dedicated the SELECTED LETTERS to Phil Whalen, and SOME

>>OF THE DHARMA to Allen Ginsberg, presumably because Ginsberg supported him

>>in his fight against Jan Kerouac.

>>        Best, Gerry Nicosia

>>        P.S. Just out of curiosity, is yours a Czech name? (I'm half.)

>

>> I thought it was "presumably" because Some of the Dharma began as notes to

>Allen Ginsberg about Buddhism...does it not make sense to dedicate the whole

>bloody book to him?

>      From a letter to Allen Ginsberg from Kerouac dated "early May 1954":

>

>  "for your beginning studies of Buddhism, you must listen to me carefully

>and implicitly as tho I was Einstein teaching the Formulas of Objective

>Correlation on a blackboard in Princeton."

>

>  And later...

>

>    "Now Allen, as Neal or Carolyn can tell you, last February I typed up a

>100-page account of Buddhism for you, gleaned from my notes, and you will

>see proof of that in sevral

 

 

Shouldn't there be a [sic] here?  (Ie sic = spelling incorrect in the original)

 

 

>allusions....I will send it importantly stamped,

>it's the only copy, we must take special care with it right? "Some of the

>Dharma" I called it,and it was intended for you to read in the selva [sic]."

 

And why a sic here?  Do you know what selva means?  It means jungle.

 

If you were a scholar you'd know where Ginsberg was when Kerouac penned this

letter to him.

 

Smiley faces and all that.  It is hard to convet sarcasm with electrons

hitting phosphor.

 

Persoanlly when I saw the dedication in the new books it confused me a

little.  I think that they should be left out really.

 

Don't be so defensive.  It is not a big deal one way or the other.

 

 

>

>     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

>THe Kerouac Quarterly...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:28:56 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

>THe Kerouac Quarterly...

>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>                                           Henry David Thoreau

 

Dear Mr. Maher--   Oct 24, 1997

        I am a scholar, sir, and my credentials are a lot more impressive

than yours.

        I will do as Mr. Gargan requested and ignore your abuse.

        But I will address an important point, which you miss.  THE POINT

IS, JACK KEROUAC DID NOT DEDICATE THAT BOOK TO ALLEN GINSBERG.  It was

presumptuous and arrogant of Mr. Sampas to dedicate the book for him.  There

was no need for a dedication if Jack Kerouac did not himself see such a

need.  And by the way, Kerouac did offer the book for publication in his

lifetime, so it wasn't just a "notebook" that Sampas happened to find.

Since Mr. Sampas chose to add a dedication, contrary to what Jack Kerouac

intended, I felt I had a right to speculate about his motives.  Jack also

lectured Neal and Carolyn Cassady about Buddhism and tried to convert both

of them, and so an equal case could be made for dedicating the book to them.

        But why invent a dedication that Kerouac himself did not want?

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:31:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Paul, what is this all about

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Paul:

 

You write to Gerry:

 

"Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

THe Kerouac Quarterly..."

 

We don't need this from Gerry and we don't need it from you.  I think

you just proved Gerry's point.  I for one would appreciate it if you

would refain from personal attacks on Gerry on the list.  He said

nothing to you in the post.  Let it go, or send it back channel.

 

Period.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:38:31 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:39 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:

 

>   I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at the end of his letter it means

>nothing. Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through

>the offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like

>being stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour.

 

Wow!!!

 

 

This actually makes me laugh it is quite over the top.  Like a Monty Python

sketch.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:45:18 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DawnDR <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: sigh

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Dear MC:

 

Let's be QUITE accurate when laying out that quote --- considering the target.

I believe it goes, "You, Sir, are an ass!"

 

Concurrence is implied.

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:51 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: my apologies, bob

Comments: To: M84M79@aol.com

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M84M79@aol.com wrote:

>

> Cathy and fellow listers,

> well, i'll intoduce myself: Marlene, college student in south Florida. I

> started my interest with the beats after I saw "The last time I committed

> Suicicde" last spring. So far I've only cracked the surface with what i've

> read, but I haven't stopped yet. I'm a poet and love having this forum to be

> able to share my work, even though i've only posted a piece once. I've been

> touched and inspired by the poetry posted and wonder if any of you are

> published poets, Rinaldo? Marie? Well thats me in fifty words or less. I hope

> that i will soon make friends on the list and continue to share the

> litereature that we love. Thankyou.

>                                                         ~~Marlene

 

 

 

Marlene-- i don't know if you read bob's post from last nights digest

yet or not, but he finally agreed with me in that if we want to have a

productive conversation, we have to know whom we are speaking to.  I

sincerely thank you for taking the time to say hey.  so what all have

you read yet? my recommendations, if you have not read them yet, is "go"

by john clellon holmes, and 'dharma bums' and 'the subterraneans' by

jack kerouac, and 'the first third' by neal cassady.  they will give you

an excellent history on some of the most important figures of the beat

generation.  I have found, however, that different people lean towards

different types within the beat category, and i personally need to read

and/or learn a lot more about burroughs.  i've concentrated on the

kerouac angle for many many years, and have recently been reading more

on ginsberg.  if you haven't read 'dharma lion' (ginsberg) please do.

it's a huge book, but well worth the time.

 

to tell you a little more about me--i'm 28, work in a photography store,

and i take photos of musicians and my friends as a hobby.  I also write

poetry, trying hard to assemble the whole mass into publishable form.

so if anyone is interested in critiquing a few pieces for me, let me

know.

 

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:54:32 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      re; shut up!

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Subject:

>         shut up!

>   Date:

>         Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:41:40 -0400

>   From:

>         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

>

>

> Just shut up! Shut up!  Arrrrrrgh!  This is incredibly aggravating.  What

> started as contested points, became an arguement, then bickering, then an

> all out bitch slap.  The the dust settled (or paused) for a day or so now

> now an arguement about the arguement.  Shut up!  Let it drop!  Move on!

> You people are driving me feakin' bananas!   Yah-yah-yah-yah!  Silence

> yourselves!  The only problem anyone has is that it never stops and gets

> nasty.  Just don't let it get nasty, and don't perpetuate it.  So, STOP!

> DAMMIT!  This is getting silly.

>

 

 

 

alex, i'm sorry.  i laughed when i read this.  it reminded me so much of

myself when all of my friends get in an argument over something stupid.

cw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:02:23 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Richard Wallner's Farewell

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 11:33 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:

>Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

>against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

>this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

>understood my concerns.

>

>So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

>on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

>of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

 

        I feel compelled to speak a few words for Mr. Wallner.  I have held

my tongue now for a couple of days as Richard got himself caught in a heavy

crossfire of attacks, as I myself have been in the past.  I did not want to

jump in and be accused of promoting further flame wars.

        But Mr. Wallner should not have to leave the list, and I for one do

believe his intentions were good.

        I also want to state at the start that IN NO WAY DO I WISH TO ATTACK

MR. GARGAN.  I have found him to be in general a fair-minded man who appears

to care deeply about Beat literature.  I also admit that I put him in a

tough position by asking for protection against the kind of defamation of

character that was being practiced against me here (and against the kind of

invasion of privacy that went on last May, with Rod Anstee printing my

private letters to him, not even email, but letters that were typed and

signed to him as private correspondence).

        My initial feeling was that anyone on the Beat-List should be

protected against character assassination and/or invasion of privacy.  But

as time went on, I came to see that that sort of request puts Mr. Gargan in

the untenable position of censor or moderator.  There are 4 alternatives to

the person thus being defamed: 1) attack back in a similar "dirty" fashion;

2) leave the list; 3) sue the list and shut it down; 4) ignore the abuse,

slander, etc.  I have tried 1, at least to the extent of throwing a few

slightly below-the-belt punches myself--it did no good.  For one thing,

reinforcements were simply brought in, so that I was boxing with four

opponents at the same time, in which case even below-the-belt punches don't

help much.  I tried 2, and that FAILED TO PREVENT THE KIND OF ONE-SIDEDNESS

I was opposing--it only enhanced the bias in favor of Mr. Sampas.  I never

threatened to sue the list, but I told Bill I was being pushed to a point

where I would have to take such an approach, if my private correspondence

kept getting posted as if it were yesterday's newspaper.  And I clearly told

him I DID NOT WANT TO BE IN THAT POSITION--to have to close down a list to

protect my privacy--ESPECIALLY WHEN THE LIST IS AS WONDERFUL AND VALUABLE AS

BEAT-L.  I pleaded with him to act BEFORE WE REACHED THAT POINT.  He did.

So that leaves 4, which really seems the only alternative that "works."

I'll give it my best shot for a while.

        But back to Mr. Wallner, and the supposed attack on Mr. Gargan.  Mr.

Wallner was, to a large extent, simply echoing my own complaint about being

deprived of the right of self-defense.  I DO NOT THINK MR. GARGAN IS AN

UNFAIR MAN, BUT I DO THINK HE MADE A BAD CALL.  And I told him so.  (I've

played baseball all my life, and the right to question the ump is a sacred

one, although admittedly it can get you kicked out.)

        My complaint was based on the fact that Messieurs Maher, Hemenway,

et al. had been promoting Mr. Sampas and Mr. Sampas's events for several

months while I was off the Beat-List.  I knew about their posts, but I did

not jump in to stop them or attack them.  I let them have their right of

free speech.  (And I know Mr. Hemenway is about to tell me that Kerouac Week

is not a Sampas-sponsored event, but the names of John Sampas and Stella

Sampas are on several pieces of their promotional advertising; and there is

no other way to explain no OFFICIAL mention of the passing of Jan Kerouac,

whose ashes were buried a few miles from Lowell only four months earlier;

especially since they ignored her death the previous year too; and yet they

went out of their way to honor Allen Ginsberg's death this year.)

        I do not bring all this stuff up to start the Estate debate again,

but simply to point out that I was being extremely patient in letting the

other side talk its talk.  But two hours, TWO HOURS(!), after I reappeared

(on October 15) to talk about my legal victory in Florida, Maher was posting

a denunciation, followed by Chaput, followed by Gyenis, followed by

Hemenway.  I was trying to get Mr. Gargan to ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DISCREPANCY,

before he simply tossed the label "mud slinger" or "brawler" on me, as

several of you have done.  I do not want brawls, and I do not want

mudslinging.  But when I show extreme patience with the other side's

pro-Sampas postings, for months on end, I think earn the right to have

similar patience and deference shown to me.

        I think we have to establish a difference between the right to

"sling mud" and the right to defend oneself.  And I think that was at the

bottom of Mr. Wallner's posts for the past several days.

        That is all I am going to say.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:10:45 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: i'm beginning to hear voices..

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600 from <syoung@DSW.COM>

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:39:28 -0600 Sean Young said:

>     Marie,

>

>     same plane.

>     dylan CD all around.

>     alternating with Harry Smith's folk anthology.

>

>     many voices. lost times

>

>     AH

>

>     SDY

>

>

>______________________________ Reply Separator

>_________________________________

>Subject: i'm beginning to hear voices..

>Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

>Date:    10/24/97 1:23 PM

>

>

>...and there's no one around...

>WHO IS BOB DYLAN AND WHY WON'T HE LEAVE MY CD PLAYER???

>

>thank the gods and goddesses:

>all and whoever.

>

>the best matured combo of blonde on blonde, new morining and blood on

>the tracks.

>i'm in dylan heaven....

>mc

 

 Sean, can you post specifics on Harry Smith's anthology?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:30:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:28 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 07:47 PM 10/24/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>     If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>>negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>>else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>>dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul of

>>THe Kerouac Quarterly...

>>"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

>>                                           Henry David Thoreau

>

>Dear Mr. Maher--   Oct 24, 1997

>        I am a scholar, sir, and my credentials are a lot more impressive

>than yours.

>        I will do as Mr. Gargan requested and ignore your abuse.

>        But I will address an important point, which you miss.  THE POINT

>IS, JACK KEROUAC DID NOT DEDICATE THAT BOOK TO ALLEN GINSBERG.  It was

>presumptuous and arrogant of Mr. Sampas to dedicate the book for him.  There

>was no need for a dedication if Jack Kerouac did not himself see such a

>need.  And by the way, Kerouac did offer the book for publication in his

>lifetime, so it wasn't just a "notebook" that Sampas happened to find.

>Since Mr. Sampas chose to add a dedication, contrary to what Jack Kerouac

>intended, I felt I had a right to speculate about his motives.  Jack also

>lectured Neal and Carolyn Cassady about Buddhism and tried to convert both

>of them, and so an equal case could be made for dedicating the book to them.

>        But why invent a dedication that Kerouac himself did not want?

>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

>As the executor, I believe he has the authority to do so...and that is all

we have to know. Why speculate? I hope your credentials are a lot more

impressive than mine since you are older than me. But, to my credentials,

besides stealing library books for which I am eternally grateful in the

respect that the outcome of that crime changed me for the better. I have

published two essays on Kerouac in scholarly journals, one is The

Commonwealth Review of Massachusetts and the other,The Journal of American

Studies (Literature). I have written and completed a first draft of a

five-hundred and seven page biography on Kerouac and Lowell, I have just

finished co-editing a textbook entitled,"Emerging American Values", I have

written four novels which I have yet to publish, two quarterlies, and

fifty-eight oil paintings and several uncounted drawings and assorted mixed

media. Perhaps the undercurrents of my criminal mentality contributed to the

Dionysian frenzy of my productivity, perhaps I can encourage my egoism as

the muse of my creativity, at least I don't try to deny or conceal my acts

of creation. Thus my strength and my strategy, patterned on a single

landscape from which my roots draw their sap.

Likewise my thought,my mind: so wildly concentrated upon itself, a block of

diamond whose multiple facets are so brilliantly shimmering that the reality

surrounding it is disconcerted, deceived, snared, decoyed. What can you do

to convince me otherwise that you are my equal? Paul....

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:13:14 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Nobody But Mr. Sampas

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

                                Oct 24,1997

Dear Beat-L Readers,

        In all the brouhaha and flame wars of the past few days, a line in

one of Mr. Maher's long posts may have slipped past you.  It nearly slipped

past me.

        The line, in his post of 10/22, was: "He [Mr. Sampas] has every

letter from the MEMORY BABE collection that was penned by and to Jack Kerouac."

        Now listen to that, will you?

        Do you know what that means?

        It means, while Mr. Sampas is going over to the MEMORY BABE

collection, which I put at U Mass, Lowell, and WHILE HE IS TELLING THE

LIBRARIAN TO SHUT THE COLLECTION TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC, he is at the same

time demanding that the librarian let him copy all 2,000 Kerouac letters (in

xerox) that I put in that collection.

        In other words, Mr. Sampas wants the right to all the information I

have in the MEMORY BABE collection, and he ALREADY HAS IT!  But at the same

time, he would deny the same privilege, and the same information, to every

one of you.

        In my book, they used to call that selfish.  A case could also be

made for hypocritical.

        Nobody but Mr. Sampas is worthy of reading those 2,000 Jack Kerouac

letters, evidently.

        That deeply troubles me.

        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:12:04 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:22:07 -0400 from

              <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>

 

Hope my suggestions weren't seen as hostile.  I think students sometimes expect

 more help from a list like this they can really get.  Sure, we can suggest rea

dings but I don't think we're going to be able to discuss a topic sufficiently

to help an undergraduate or high school student write a paper without reading t

he text or consulting basic resources.  If it's a matter of answering a specifi

c question, that's a different story.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:34:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:38 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 08:39 PM 10/24/97 -0400, Paul Maher wrote:

>

>>   I guess when Gerry has to take the turn at the end of his letter it means

>>nothing. Whatever he dishes out he can expect thricefold. I can see through

>>the offal that is his presence. I can smell the wake of his passing like

>>being stuck behind a trash truck in rush hour.

>

>Wow!!!

>

>

>This actually makes me laugh it is quite over the top.  Like a Monty Python

>sketch.

>Thanks for being able to discenr the subtelties and nuances of my humor.

Most don't seem to possess a sense of humor on this list. they are

so.....serious.

I think we should have a Gerry Nicosia Roast. I love him, he's a warm and

loving guy. I want to be his friend. I want to be his good friend. I wish he

would be my friend. I wonder if he'd sign my copy of Memory Babe? Paul of

...you know.

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:17:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Cut up Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I have reached back onto my book shelf.  I have taken a book from

Kerouac portion without reading the title first.  It is Book of Dreams.

I am opening it randomly.  The page 121 and the dream begins thusly:

 

"WRITING DREAMS, TAKE NOTE OF THE WAY THE DREAMING MIND CREATES

 

THE ANNALS OF JACK KEROUAC--Annals indeed--anal ones--the Mind wished

and dream'd itself a spate of San Jose where I'm taken to the parking

lot of work at a location I hadn't daydreamed, on that road leading

North from Santa Clara ...  but the Mind loses control of the scene in a

toilet across the street from Cody's house and Cody and I are taking

craps side by side in a double crapper, Cody is talking about an actor

as I wipe myself with paper, he says "But you know he's queer, he blows

the Kings" and I have my part on my lap while wiping myself, it's naked,

and at the mention of these erotic matters I can feel the swelling so I

hurry to wipe up ere it's a pole but get all tangled in the wiping and

get some crap in my mouth, a piece, of some reason with paper and

reaching in and pieces that get stuck and logics about teeth ...."

 

That is different. I will try another in a moment.  Another random page,

like cut up Kerouac. Maybe this will change the way the wind blows.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:38:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Richard Wallner's Farewell

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:02 PM 10/24/97 -0700, you wrote:

>At 11:33 AM 10/24/97 -0400, Richard Wallner wrote:

>>Ive seen very little compassion and a lot of negative attacking going on

>>against me, when all I was doing was trying to show that I cared about

>>this list and its integrity.  I just wanted Bill Gargan to say he

>>understood my concerns.

>>

>>So now Im being hounded off a list I cared a lot about.  I'll miss being

>>on this list.  But nobody here wants to give me or my motives the benefit

>>of the doubt.  Nobody wants to accept that I had good intentions.

>

>        I feel compelled to speak a few words for Mr. Wallner.  I have held

>my tongue now for a couple of days as Richard got himself caught in a heavy

>crossfire of attacks, as I myself have been in the past.  I did not want to

>jump in and be accused of promoting further flame wars.

>        But Mr. Wallner should not have to leave the list, and I for one do

>believe his intentions were good.

>        I also want to state at the start that IN NO WAY DO I WISH TO ATTACK

>MR. GARGAN.  I have found him to be in general a fair-minded man who appears

>to care deeply about Beat literature.  I also admit that I put him in a

>tough position by asking for protection against the kind of defamation of

>character that was being practiced against me here (and against the kind of

>invasion of privacy that went on last May, with Rod Anstee printing my

>private letters to him, not even email, but letters that were typed and

>signed to him as private correspondence).

>        My initial feeling was that anyone on the Beat-List should be

>protected against character assassination and/or invasion of privacy.  But

>as time went on, I came to see that that sort of request puts Mr. Gargan in

>the untenable position of censor or moderator.  There are 4 alternatives to

>the person thus being defamed: 1) attack back in a similar "dirty" fashion;

>2) leave the list; 3) sue the list and shut it down; 4) ignore the abuse,

>slander, etc.  I have tried 1, at least to the extent of throwing a few

>slightly below-the-belt punches myself--it did no good.  For one thing,

>reinforcements were simply brought in, so that I was boxing with four

>opponents at the same time, in which case even below-the-belt punches don't

>help much.  I tried 2, and that FAILED TO PREVENT THE KIND OF ONE-SIDEDNESS

>I was opposing--it only enhanced the bias in favor of Mr. Sampas.  I never

>threatened to sue the list, but I told Bill I was being pushed to a point

>where I would have to take such an approach, if my private correspondence

>kept getting posted as if it were yesterday's newspaper.  And I clearly told

>him I DID NOT WANT TO BE IN THAT POSITION--to have to close down a list to

>protect my privacy--ESPECIALLY WHEN THE LIST IS AS WONDERFUL AND VALUABLE AS

>BEAT-L.  I pleaded with him to act BEFORE WE REACHED THAT POINT.  He did.

>So that leaves 4, which really seems the only alternative that "works."

>I'll give it my best shot for a while.

>        But back to Mr. Wallner, and the supposed attack on Mr. Gargan.  Mr.

>Wallner was, to a large extent, simply echoing my own complaint about being

>deprived of the right of self-defense.  I DO NOT THINK MR. GARGAN IS AN

>UNFAIR MAN, BUT I DO THINK HE MADE A BAD CALL.  And I told him so.  (I've

>played baseball all my life, and the right to question the ump is a sacred

>one, although admittedly it can get you kicked out.)

>        My complaint was based on the fact that Messieurs Maher, Hemenway,

>et al. had been promoting Mr. Sampas and Mr. Sampas's events for several

>months while I was off the Beat-List.  I knew about their posts, but I did

>not jump in to stop them or attack them.  I let them have their right of

>free speech.  (And I know Mr. Hemenway is about to tell me that Kerouac Week

>is not a Sampas-sponsored event, but the names of John Sampas and Stella

>Sampas are on several pieces of their promotional advertising; and there is

>no other way to explain no OFFICIAL mention of the passing of Jan Kerouac,

>whose ashes were buried a few miles from Lowell only four months earlier;

>especially since they ignored her death the previous year too; and yet they

>went out of their way to honor Allen Ginsberg's death this year.)

>        I do not bring all this stuff up to start the Estate debate again,

>but simply to point out that I was being extremely patient in letting the

>other side talk its talk.  But two hours, TWO HOURS(!), after I reappeared

>(on October 15) to talk about my legal victory in Florida, Maher was posting

>a denunciation, followed by Chaput, followed by Gyenis, followed by

>Hemenway.  I was trying to get Mr. Gargan to ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DISCREPANCY,

>before he simply tossed the label "mud slinger" or "brawler" on me, as

>several of you have done.  I do not want brawls, and I do not want

>mudslinging.  But when I show extreme patience with the other side's

>pro-Sampas postings, for months on end, I think earn the right to have

>similar patience and deference shown to me.

>        I think we have to establish a difference between the right to

>"sling mud" and the right to defend oneself.  And I think that was at the

>bottom of Mr. Wallner's posts for the past several days.

>        That is all I am going to say.

>        Respectfully, Gerald Nicosia

>Can you be my friend Gerry?

"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."

                                           Henry David Thoreau

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:23:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: HELP PLEASE!!!!!!/I hate it when that happens

In-Reply-To:  <345137E2.D819FA1@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Bentz wrote:

>attention they will see that we are not here to do their work for them.

 

When requests like that arrive on the list I beleive it's best to refer

them to the Reference Desk at the nearest public, college or university

library.  They will steer them to the reviews, the books, the critics, etc.

The library is where the action is.

 

j grant

 

 

        Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                        FREE

                           at

                            BookZen

                        http://www.bookzen.com

             402,900 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:19:11 -0500

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      pull my daisy

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

to all the BEAT-L's

 

thanks so much for all the suggestions on where to find all versions of

pull my daisy.  the video was the one i was most interested in.

 

next: informal poll:

 

is there anyone else from iowa on this list???

 

or chicago--i get there quite often.

 

--"wherever you go, there you are"

buckaroo bonzai

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:28:12 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's dedications

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400 from

              <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

 

On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:41:34 -0400 Alex Howard said:

>>

>>      If you were a scholar you would have known this. Instead, you act as a

>> negator of good intentions and a skeptic of the same. For you and any one

>> else's concerns, the Estate consults top scholars when considering

>> dedications. Who should have it been dedicated to...you?  Sincerely, Paul

>

>Now, this is perfect to prove exactly how most of the complaints we've

>been hearing come about.  You were doing just fine until you hit this

>paragraph.  In fact I had just finished sending off a post that said much

>the same thing (I read it in the introduction as well).  If you really

>want to prove someone a moron (not that I'm saying Gerry is a moron), you

>can do so best with the simple truth. No need to get snide and crass about

>it.

>

>------------------

>Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

>kh14586@am.appstate.edu                       P.O. Box 12149

>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586             Boone, NC  28608

 

Mr. Howard makes a good point.  Let's correct each other but let's try to do wi

th civility.   Let's all make a conscious effort not to offend one another beca

use, after all, it's pointless in the end.

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Date:         Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:40:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Seoncd cut up

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I am going to stick with Book of Dreams.  This time, I will cut together

approximately 2 sentences from 5 different pages chosen at random.  I

will enclose the whole in quotes.  And remember it will make sense as

this is about dreams anyway.

 

"A TREMENDOUS FAMILY SAGA, it takes place in a huge high apartment by

the sea, the same sea of Tidal Waves and Sea Battles-- there are

intelligent child girls, earlier in the opening of the Saga, in a big

room, after something to do with the Girl of the Huge Room, Halvar Hayes

holds a kitten by the neck choking it and me and someone else (Joe



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