=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:49:32 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
In-Reply-To:
<UPMAIL14.199711091805180903@classic.msn.com>
Mime-Version:
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Why
does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that
there
would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in
consideration,
the number of genres that are out there and, also, how
writing
styles of changed in the past one
hundred years. Trying to
choose THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from many different
genres is like
comparing
apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats
out
there? Not everything has to be a competition.
~Nancy
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this
century as
>
actually possible. the country is so
huge, experience from region, class,
>
race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to
>
encompass it all. only person of that
ilk that comes to mind for me is
>
Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.
>
>
much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i fear
>
the notion can't really be entertained realistically. or do i, perhaps, have
> a
different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
>
>
----------
>
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of James Stauffer
>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43
AM
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
>
>
Joey,
>
>
I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.
I'm not sure that as the century
>
closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of
>
the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.
>
>
There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think
> of
as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.
>
> J.
Stauffer
>
>
Joey Mellott wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the
>
> twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:58:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: ]
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Hey,
sorry about wasting bandwidth.
Obviously, I hit reply instead of forward.
And there you go, James, I help you prove
a point
eh?
Bentz
Kirby wrote:
> In
case you are interested, here is Paul's latest beat literature
>
response.
>
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:02:55 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997110912323331@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Joey Mellott wrote:
>
----------
>
> From: Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
>
> Date: Saturday, November 08, 1997 12:19 PM
>
>
>
> >I don't believe that the great American novel of
>
> >the twentieth century has been written yet.
>
> ***
>
> Oh-oh.
>
>
>
> Time's running out.
>
> I
hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the
>
twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby. While I'm not
>
stating that it was the best book from the US in the 20th cen, I believe
>
that Gatsby, before anyone else, could see the direction that America was
>
going, i.e. materialistic, consumeristic, and cynical, and probably would
>
not have been surprised that a culture so marginalized from this world view
>
would spring up and write fantastic, subversive novels. Kerouac,
>
Burroughs, and Fitzgerald seem to agree that the American dream has become
> a
nightmare.
-----no
denying that gatsby was A great american
novel,
but i think it is lacking in that it only
represents
one view of "americana."
certainly, the
materialistc
representation of gatsbys world was
superb,
but this was where the novel stopped.
it
consciously
did not deal with any of the intellectual
developments
that were working in america. and
although
it did predict one of the social aspects of
america,
"american" is more than a social or cultural
adjective. but i do not argue that gatsby is a
beautifully
written, brilliant work. but pynchon -
in
my
opinion - deals with many facets of americana.
especially
mason and dixon.
>
>
Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and jobless loafer
>
(peyotecoyote@iah.com)
>
"the socerers enter the ring, and the dancer with the six hundred little
>
bells (300 of horn, 300 of silver) shrieks his coyote call in the forest."
> -
Antonin Artaud
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:06:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
In-Reply-To:
<UPMAIL14.199711091805180903@classic.msn.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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eco is
certainly a genius. i cant think of a
more
entertaining
writer - name of the rose was genius.
also,
his critical work is superb, and his comic
publications
are hysterical (and often all too true).
it is a
shame that he cannot be considered for the
great
american novelist. but id be willing to
grant
him
such status if we could put him into the mix.
he
is
easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.
james
donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this
century as
>
actually possible. the country is so
huge, experience from region, class,
>
race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to
>
encompass it all. only person of that
ilk that comes to mind for me is
>
Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.
>
>
much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i fear
>
the notion can't really be entertained realistically. or do i, perhaps, have
> a
different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
>
>
----------
>
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of James Stauffer
>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43
AM
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
>
> Joey,
>
>
I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.
I'm not sure that as the century
>
closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of
>
the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.
>
>
There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think
> of
as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.
>
> J.
Stauffer
>
>
Joey Mellott wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the
>
> twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:11:59 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.95.971109134503.8586A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
well, i
see your point, but its impossible to escape.
with
the publications yearly of "the best american
essays"
and "best american poetry," it is inescapable
that
one should consider novels. (anyone
know of a
best
american short story publication?) and
i dont
know
where i st on the issue - i read and teach from
the
best american essays, but i refuse to buy the best
american
poetry - one issue edited by louise gluck
killed
that for me. but the comparison between
works
is
inevitable, especially as america no longer has a
core of
a dozen or so writers that are generally
reverred
as "great" (here i am thinking of fitzgerald,
faulkner,
et al.)
also,
one must consider teaching issues. it
would be
easier
to devise syllabi is such a notion were -
decided
but i dont know what i would do with that.
but
thank you for that point. we deserved
it (but i
wont
stop considering it, at leats not for now).
jim
donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
Why does there have to be ONE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL? I would think that
>
there would be many such novels, especially, when one takes in
>
consideration, the number of genres that are out there and, also, how
>
writing styles of changed in the past one
hundred years. Trying to
>
choose THE GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL from
many different genres is like
>
comparing apples and oranges. Why don't we just sit back and enjoy whats
>
out there? Not everything has to be a competition.
>
~Nancy
>
>
>
> On
Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
>
> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this
century as
>
> actually possible. the country is
so huge, experience from region, class,
>
> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce
to
>
> encompass it all. only person of
that ilk that comes to mind for me is
>
> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American"
novel.
>
>
>
> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i
fear
>
> the notion can't really be entertained realistically. or do i, perhaps,
have
>
> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?
>
>
>
> ciao,
>
> sherri
>
>
>
> ----------
>
> From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List on behalf of James Stauffer
>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 1997
9:43 AM
>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> Subject: Re: another
Kerouac?
>
>
>
> Joey,
>
>
>
> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.
I'm not sure that as the century
>
> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of
>
> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.
>
>
>
> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think
>
> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.
>
>
>
> J. Stauffer
>
>
>
> Joey Mellott wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel
of the
>
> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.
>
>
>
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:24:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee"
<donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: it's all good...
Comments:
To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>
In-Reply-To: <34655CA2.5E8D@comic.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
> Subject:
>
> it's all good
>
> Date:
>
> Sat, 8 Nov 1997 02:17:26
-0800
>
> From:
>
> Jerry Mader
<jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>
>
>
>
>
>
> i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my competense
>
> and free spirt but i know. i see
you cry your yearning for more but i
>
> will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and
>
> write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of much
>
> more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its his
>
> son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes or
>
> info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this what
>
> its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and
>
> thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist views.
>
> break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u found
>
> this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here some
>
> thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!
>
>
DUDE!!!!!!!!Why don't you just sit back and relax, and quit poking us in
>
the ribs????
>
>
What is this ...."you see i'm tired of your conformist views?????"
>
>
Just how old are you, anyway??? You sound all of 13 going on 12.
>
>
>
cathy
>
I'm on
this guy's side. Who in the world
doesn't occasionally need a
wake-up
call? If it's *not* true, why get
defensive about it?
Peace
Don Lee
Fayetteville,
Ark.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:41:53 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
yes, he
is. his book "Foucault's
Pendulum" dances circles around the "Name of
the
Rose". ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
James Donahue
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 1997 5:06 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
eco is
certainly a genius. i cant think of a
more
entertaining
writer - name of the rose was genius.
also,
his critical work is superb, and his comic
publications
are hysterical (and often all too true).
it is a
shame that he cannot be considered for the
great
american novelist. but id be willing to
grant
him
such status if we could put him into the mix.
he
is
easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.
james
donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this
century as
>
actually possible. the country is so
huge, experience from region, class,
>
race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce to
>
encompass it all. only person of that
ilk that comes to mind for me is
>
Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American" novel.
>
>
much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i
fear
>
the notion can't really be entertained realistically. or do i, perhaps,
have
> a
different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?
>
>
ciao,
>
sherri
>
>
----------
>
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of James Stauffer
>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 1997 9:43
AM
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
>
>
Joey,
>
>
I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.
I'm not sure that as the century
>
closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of
>
the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.
>
>
There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think
> of
as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.
>
> J.
Stauffer
>
>
Joey Mellott wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel of the
>
> twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:10:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul's persona Re:
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Paul
A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My
>>
masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall
>>
of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be
>>
careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened
>>
contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I
guess
>>
because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature.
paul...P.S.
>>
, don't wear out your elastic waistbands.
>>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>Paul,
>
>i
spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your
>genre
by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to
>piss
on as well) and you showed NO interest.
Please don't pretend that
>you
have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of
>critical
examination of beat literature. you
don't contribute
>intelligently
to discussion of Beat Literature either.
Not sure why you
>take
such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you
>build
yourself up by tearing others down. I
really don't understand
>your
reactions. I'm not certain what you
wish to read about on this
>listserv. Diane had an excellent post that struck
straight in the heart
>of
your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but
>rather
than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt
>more
ridicule. Jack is right, i believe, in
the notions that Diane
>quoted
concerning writers and various forms.
Joyce would be Joyce even
>in
the reader's digest. Paul would be a
spiteful juvenile no matter
>where
or in what form he chose to put his words.
>
>The
weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good
>reason
to go back to sleep for another week.
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>Thank-you
drive thru....P.
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 17:48:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: hearing the spoken word
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
8bit
>hi
tyson and all people and things beat: ! i just did a reading with
>michael
in plattsburgh, ny and he is now on the maine coast. michael is
>an
>amazing
man with an incredible constitution for being on the road and
>being
totally THERE when he arrives. i highly recommend any one who is
>putting
together readings or workshops (his are wonderful) could do no
>better
than michael.
yeah, he came here straight from NY,
quite a drive. yes, he was
completely
there, it's refreshing. i highly
recommend his Elegy for
the
Road - Kerouac's Ghost.. was one of my favorites.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:14:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: ]
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
01:58 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey,
sorry about wasting bandwidth.
Obviously, I hit reply instead of
forward.
> And there you go, James, I help you prove
>a
point eh?
>
>Bentz
Kirby wrote:
>
>>
In case you are interested, here is Paul's latest beat literature
>>
response.
>>
which
is?
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 18:16:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul's persona Re:
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Paul
A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My
>>
masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall
>>
of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be
>>
careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened
>>
contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I
guess
>>
because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature.
paul...P.S.
>>
, don't wear out your elastic waistbands.
>>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>Paul,
>
>i
spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your
>genre
by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to
>piss
on as well) and you showed NO interest.
Please don't pretend that
>you
have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of
>critical
examination of beat literature. you
don't contribute
>intelligently
to discussion of Beat Literature either. Not sure why you
>take
such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you
>build
yourself up by tearing others down. I
really don't understand
>your
reactions. I'm not certain what you
wish to read about on this
>listserv. Diane had an excellent post that struck
straight in the heart
>of
your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but
>rather
than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt
>more
ridicule. Jack is right, i believe, in
the notions that Diane
>quoted
concerning writers and various forms.
Joyce would be Joyce even
>in
the reader's digest. Paul would be a
spiteful juvenile no matter
>where
or in what form he chose to put his words.
>
>The
weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good
>reason
to go back to sleep for another week.
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>Sleep
on my friend...you'll be right at home with the rest of them...P.
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
Subject: The Great American Novel
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The
question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
what is
"The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century American
Novel"?
I'd
like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
What's
more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
something
else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
I
figure that will be worth a try.
Best,
Harold
Rhenisch
rhenisch@web-trek.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:36:54 -0500
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Paul's persona Re:
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At
07:23 AM 11/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Paul
A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
Sorry for the presumptuousness. . .some of them have that Gen-X tone. My
>>
masturbatory flight of fancy is a grandiose structuring of the rise and fall
>>
of mankind with the stroke and sleight of one hand.I guess I'll have to be
>>
careful not to step on the eggshell personalities of our more enlightened
>>
contributors of the Beat-L. I took the "Beat" in a different way I
guess
>>
because there is hardly ever any reference to "Beat" Literature.
paul...P.S.
>>
, don't wear out your elastic waistbands.
>>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>>
Henry David Thoreau
>
>Paul,
>
>i
spent quite a few efforts examining a poem that would fit within your
>genre
by Allen Ginsberg (which i imagine you'd feel more than happy to
>piss
on as well) and you showed NO interest.
Please don't pretend that
>you
have a personality and it is just somehow offended by the lack of
>critical
examination of beat literature. you
don't contribute
>intelligently
to discussion of Beat Literature either.
Not sure why you
>take
such pleasure in spite but it can make a guy grow weary seeing you
>build
yourself up by tearing others down. I
really don't understand
>your
reactions. I'm not certain what you
wish to read about on this
>listserv. Diane had an excellent post that struck
straight in the heart
>of
your conceptions (as i try to comprehend them) of beat literature but
>rather
than throwing your energy into that thread you decide to attempt
>more
ridicule. Jack is right, i believe, in
the notions that Diane
>quoted
concerning writers and various forms.
Joyce would be Joyce even
>in
the reader's digest. Paul would be a
spiteful juvenile no matter
>where
or in what form he chose to put his words.
>
>The
weather has turned frightful in Kansas and your words provide a good
>reason
to go back to sleep for another week.
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
I have
no "genre." What I do have is an impulsive delight in playing with
words,
any words, that lay before me in a most horrible turgid manner. They,
the
very instruments of my fancy abused to the point of recklessness. They
pitted
into cliches and sucked out left bloodless and void of insight and
meaning.
I seize these words and turn them on their backs with their legs
grasping
at thin air like turtles upended by a cruel child, and I watch them
struggle
feebly, disabled momentarily. I assume the chance to solicit the
very
response I take the time to engender.
Alas, the universe is a whole. How can that
be denied? Just as man
breathes
eighteen times a minute, or 25,920 times a day, the equinoctial
point
of the sun runs through the zodiac once in every 25,920 years. Our
hearts
beat only one-fourth as fast as our lungs breathe, just as the speed
of the
propagation of air is four times greater than a film that records the
variety
of the phenomena of the universe. I am convinced that I am of this
world
itself, that I embody the living nucleus of the landscape. My
existential
obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef. Like it, I am a
cathedral
of strength with a nimbus of dreamlike delirium. My granite
structure
is equipped with ductilities, haze, glint, quicksands, that hide
its
needles, its craters, its promontories, the better to let me keep my
secrets. P.
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:58:23 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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>what
is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century
American
>Novel"?
>What's
more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>something
else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
that all depends on what we understand
novel to mean, the new
american
novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in
the
traditional sense. the new american
novel will have to take on the
air of
what we see in independent movies, a renewed devotoin to the
adage
that it's not what you write but how you write it. it'll be like
dreaming... basically, the new american novel is Naked
Lunch, it's
mind-blowing
how much before its time it was. I'd
venture to say that
maybe
Naked Lunch is the great amer. novel of the 20th century that has
already
been written.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:08:12 +1000
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From: Duncan Gray
<duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>
Subject: Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
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Leon, I
feel you do this when you write about Neal.
Duncan
At
12:10 PM 10/11/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:02:57 PST
>From: Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject:
Re: Was Burroghs really a killer?
>
>Patricia
>
>You
are such a gem. I am not speaking of your poetry right now. I am
>speaking
of how you give definition to the word true friend. A true
>friend
is not one who would overlook and color in things to make the
>friend
look "better". A true friend loves their friend enough to know
>them
as much as only a true friend can, and accepts them for what they
>are.
A true friend can explain a person better than any objectified
>scholarship
tries to do. A true friend wants to explain their friends to
>others
who would like to know more about them in a way that they come
>out
of the shadows of various possibilities. So many of the questions
>that
seem to linger after explanations by remote scholarly
>interpretations
are finally fully answered by the integrity and true
>friendship
that you share with us.
>Your
true friendship enlightens us about the wonderful human being
>William
S. Burroughs was and the mistakes that he made in living his
>very
human life. With your help I know him better too.
>
>leon
>------------------------------------------------------------------.o0
>Duncan
Gray
>Stored
Grain Research Laboratory
>CSIRO
Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601
>Ph.
(06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------.o0
Duncan
Gray
Stored
Grain Research Laboratory
CSIRO
Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601
Ph.
(06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:29:06 -0800
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199711092244180160@classic.msn.com>
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the
more i read, the more i need to read...another
book to
put on my list.
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
yes, he is. his book "Foucault's Pendulum"
dances circles around the "Name of
>
the Rose". ciao, sherri
>
>
----------
>
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on
behalf of James Donahue
>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 1997 5:06
PM
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: another Kerouac?
>
>
eco is certainly a genius. i cant think
of a more
>
entertaining writer - name of the rose was genius.
>
also, his critical work is superb, and his comic
>
publications are hysterical (and often all too true).
> it
is a shame that he cannot be considered for the
>
great american novelist. but id be
willing to grant
>
him such status if we could put him into the mix. he
> is
easily one of the most intelligent men of out time.
>
james donahue
>
> On
Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
>
> i'm beginning to think that the "Great American" novel of this
century as
>
> actually possible. the country is
so huge, experience from region, class,
>
> race, religion so variable any more - i think it would take a James Joyce
to
>
> encompass it all. only person of
that ilk that comes to mind for me is
>
> Umberto Eco - hardly a candidate for writing an "American"
novel.
>
>
>
> much as i love and revere Fitzgerald and some of the others mentioned, i
>
fear
>
> the notion can't really be entertained realistically. or do i, perhaps,
>
have
>
> a different notion of what the Great American novel of this century is?
>
>
>
> ciao,
>
> sherri
>
>
>
> ----------
>
> From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List on behalf of James Stauffer
>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 1997
9:43 AM
>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> Subject: Re: another
Kerouac?
>
>
>
> Joey,
>
>
>
> I'd have to concur with you on Gatsby.
I'm not sure that as the century
>
> closes we are quite sure what a novel is anymore and the importance of
>
> the form seems to be in at least a temporary decline.
>
>
>
> There have been a lot of wonderful books in our times, but I can't think
>
> of as perfect a novel as Gatsby in our time.
>
>
>
> J. Stauffer
>
>
>
> Joey Mellott wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > I hate to admit thinking this, but I think the great American novel
of the
>
> > twentieth century has been written: The Great Gatsby.
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:34:01 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
In-Reply-To: <B08B94F9-D9487@204.244.157.69>
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in this
question, are you asking which novel is the
great
american novel, or are you asking about the
"genre"
of great american novel? the first
question
has
been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and
fitzgerald
being specifically named in the
discussion). as to the other choice, i dont know what
you
mean. but i believe that we have decided
on this
questions
undecidability. but id love to discuss
alternatives
to the genre "novel". but
wont this
bring
us back to the poetry/prose disctinction?
and
what do
we do about that?
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:
>
The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
>
what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century
American
>
Novel"?
>
>
I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
>
What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>
something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
>
> I
figure that will be worth a try.
>
>
Best,
>
>
Harold Rhenisch
>
rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:38:45 -0600
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From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee"
<donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Gary Snyder
In-Reply-To:
<9711100209.AA09981@spider.ento.csiro.au>
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I just
returned from a weekend trip four hours south to Hot Springs, where
Gary
Snyder did a workshop/reading Saturday.
What an amazing experience.
I have
paid less attention to him perhaps than any of the major Beats. A
terrific
guy, wonderful reader, beautiful poet.
I am out of superlatives.
Can
anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just
signed
and I began reading tonight? (I took my
copy of DHARMA BUMS,
though
uncertain how he'd feel about signing someone else's
book--nonetheless,
it being my first exposure to him at age 15, I
presented
it. He said, "I always sign this one like so," and signed the
title
page JAPHY RYDER. Wow.)
Don Lee
Fayetteville,
Ark.
"I
make art about the misunderstandings that take place at the
border
zone, but for me, the border is no longer at any fixed
geopolitical
site. I carry the border with me, and I find new
borders,
wherever I go."
--Guillermo
Gomez-Pena
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:39:55 -0800
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
In-Reply-To: <msg1195570.thr-cbdd020b.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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i knew
it was only a matter of time before a beat was
brought
into this mix (given the company we keep...).
but i
dont think that the answer is wrong.
once
again,
im forced to rethink my conception of what a
good
novel is constructed by (or itself constructs).
but
even if i dont fully agree with your choice, i do
agree
with your argument - the great american novel,
if it
does or ever will exist - will not be
traditional,
and i daresay it will not be popular, but
it will
be ahead of its time.
james donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
>what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th
Century American
>
>Novel"?
>
>What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>
>something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
>
> that all depends on what we understand
novel to mean, the new
>
american novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in
>
the traditional sense. the new american
novel will have to take on the
>
air of what we see in independent movies, a renewed devotoin to the
>
adage that it's not what you write but how you write it. it'll be like
>
dreaming... basically, the new american
novel is Naked Lunch, it's
>
mind-blowing how much before its time it was.
I'd venture to say that
>
maybe Naked Lunch is the great amer. novel of the 20th century that has
>
already been written.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:47:34 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Interest from the Illiterate Re: The Great American Novel
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James
Donahue wrote:
>
> in
this question, are you asking which novel is the
>
great american novel, or are you asking about the
>
"genre" of great american novel?
the first question
>
has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and
>
fitzgerald being specifically named in the
>
discussion). as to the other choice, i
dont know what
>
you mean. but i believe that we have
decided on this
>
questions undecidability. but id love
to discuss
>
alternatives to the genre "novel".
but wont this
>
bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction? and
>
what do we do about that?
i've
been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very
little
i know and understand about all these ideas.
I've consistently
said to
myself -- what is a novel? What makes
it a novel rather than
something
less or more than a novel? I honestly
have no background or
idea. And what does Beat Generation literature do
in altering the
conceptions
of the novel? What does the Beat
Generation literature do
to
determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the
notions
of quality in connection with the novel itself? Some have
mentioned
linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century
suggests
the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)
of
linearity? Naked Lunch is suggested as
an exemplar of 20th Century
non-linearity
but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model
of
quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder
about
the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the
same
motivations that push against linearity.
What is the difference
between
history and novel? Between poetry and
novel? Between
philosophy
or social theory and novel?
As you
can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little
background
or understanding of the matter. It
seems partly a question
of
form, perhaps partly a question of substance.
I honestly haven't
been
able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the
parameters
of what is accepted as a novel might be.
Clueless
in Kansas,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
>
> On
Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:
>
>
> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
>
>
> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th
Century American
>
> Novel"?
>
>
>
> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
>
>
> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>
> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
>
>
>
> I figure that will be worth a try.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Harold Rhenisch
>
> rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:12:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: First_Name Last_Name
<Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
perhaps
a great american novel need not exist.
perhaps
a great american novel would not be agreed upon by everybody, and
even
should a majority hit upon a particular book, does this mean they are
qualified?
should
a great american novel for the 20th century ever be written, perhaps
it
would be more the wise to wait until the 20th century in itself be
accurately
acessed to see what would fit the qualifications.
perhaps
the great american novel should not exist
"the
withheld work of art is of the only eloquence left"
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:29:59 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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I was
asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel". It
strikes
me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a
reason
for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the
favourite.
Best,
Harold
Rhenisch
rhenisch@web-trek.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:35:49 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Harold Rhenisch <rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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Hi
again,
re:
>that
all depends on what we understand novel to mean, the new
>american
novel will not be linear, in fact, will not even have plot in
>the
traditional sense.
Thanks
for the reply. A good start, but what do we understand 'novel' to
mean?
Why will it not be linear? Why will it not even have plot in the
traditional
sense? This all must have something to do with what makes it
great
and american, right?
Any
thoughts?
Best,
Harold
Rhenisch
rhenisch@web-trek.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:37:19 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Marlene's and sherri's poems
hello
all,
well
i'm back from my weekend trip and i was delighted and suprised to find
all
these comments about my poem. Thank you for the praise. It makes feel all
warm
inside when people like marie and sherri and david give me a compliment.
as for
the "pome" paul wrote, should i be offended? the subject matter
doesn't
shock me, but i hope it wasn't a personal attack. i write, i post,
you do
what you wish with it. thanks folks. take care.
~~Marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:06:00 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: First_Name Last_Name
<Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Untitled Nightthoughts
untitled
i
in the
sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches
such is
thus i find myself
(begrudgingly)
let us
cut to the middle;
.right the than important more no is left the
after
fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms
and backing out, startled, from the stall,
backwards, appalled
about automatic motion-sensory flush
mechanisms
i lurch for the sink.
(motion
sensored as well)
to moisten the pores of my face.
and
upon doing so:
ii
the
sickly lightbulbs flickered
three in
sight - one by row , three by
column
the skythe bloodthe
wedding virgin
in lieu of a reflecting myself
(since by now i am a gazing
mute)
there
is only a me - inherently dependent
upon the siamesetriptych
my pale
skin between self u n r a v e l s
reflection
fusingwiththe
d
y
i
n
g lights l o o s e l y
suspended before the mirrorrorrim
at this
other i am many shades
ove
separate rla distinct pp but ing
iii
in the
space between
the
land of the prideful uroboros
is red
plasma-red
with a penchant for
repetition
reppitetion rhepuhtishun
in the soul of the serpent between -
gluttony mistaken for passion
and in befuddled innocence - absent
contrition
in the
space between
the sky
is an obtrusive blue
forgetful
of the notion of just, just being
and the
larger airplanes dominate
while
the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow
in the body of the serpent
my fathers lack the foresight required to
slither
so, in shame(noshame) effect,
construct feet, arms and comfortable penny
loafers
in the
keystone of the acid lightbath -
dishwater
blinding bright
rests
the virgin's thighs from whence
conceptualizing
and awareness bounce forth
unable
to bungee back
the
palette of the serpent
composed of congruent colors by nature
though, when conjoined by imperfect joints
- ugly mixture imported meanings
indiscriminate fate -
iv
i, in
opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,
backwards take a step with kouros symmetry
and retrieve my slingshot
a series of
pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee
eeessssssssss
and
howls rage forth
purging the essence of mars
cleansing the sky of its self-appointed
interpreters
shattering the great white mist permeating
the facade of grandeur
v
in the
dark i can see nothing
there
is fear; i falter in my confidence
all i
have given myself is
autonomous
life -
a concept i wasn't willing for yet -
the
reflection is gone
the
lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness
-their
reflections pure and true- remain
i do
not move.
i inhale
the principles of this uncharted terrain.
this
glee-wary uncertainty .
11-09-97
bhr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:07:13 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity
<u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: 'great american novel'
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Studying writing right now in college, I've
heard the term "Great
American
Novel" used and misused so many times. How can we possibly
take
100 years of joy, laughter, sorrow, and discovery and cram it
into
only a several hundred pages?
There hasn't been only one book to
accomplish this, nor one writer.
While
Ginsberg lived and wrote about what many Americans stood for (or
would
have stood for, if they had put aside their fears of what others
would
think), we cannot call him the Great American Poet. While
Hemingway
may have epitomized the Lost Generation in "The Sun Also
Rises,"
he could not be the Great American Novelist. While Kerouac
mastered
the art of spontaneous prose, he could never be called the
Great
American Writer.
Why must we narrow it down to one Great
American Novel? In this
century,
we've been lucky enough to have encountered the works of many
incredible
writers-- Ginsberg, Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Vonnegut, and
others--
so why not embrace them all?
Personally, I'm overjoyed that we've had so
many great writers to
learn
from in the 20th Century, so many great minds who have
influenced
the way I write and think.
God bless America, and God bless all of our
Great American Writers.
Maggie G.
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by
Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:38:28 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: it's all good...
Comments:
To: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@comp.uark.edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Donald
G. Jr. Lee wrote:
>
> On
Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
>
> > Subject:
>
> > it's all good
>
> > Date:
>
> > Sat, 8 Nov 1997
02:17:26 -0800
>
> > From:
>
> > Jerry Mader
<jjm@TIDALWAVE.NET>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > i will supply you with new adventers,sure you will doubt my
competense
>
> > and free spirt but i know. i
see you cry your yearning for more but i
>
> > will comfort you in your time of need. sure i can move to france and
>
> > write a book and make you stand on end for more but am i capable of
much
>
> > more. yes my brothers and sisters i am. thsi isn't jerry okay, its
his
>
> > son thats using this account, im not using this to get stock quotes
or
>
> > info about important info, im using this to trade info, isn't this
what
>
> > its all about, sure you can try to braeak me down with your words and
>
> > thoughts but i won't give, you see i'm tired of your conformist
views.
>
> > break away from what you know, embark upon something unknown (if u
found
>
> > this list then i know you are competent) lets start something here
some
>
> > thing brand spanking "NEW"!!!!!!!
>
>
>
> DUDE!!!!!!!!Why don't you just sit back and relax, and quit poking us in
>
> the ribs????
>
>
>
> What is this ...."you see i'm tired of your conformist
views?????"
>
>
>
> Just how old are you, anyway??? You sound all of 13 going on 12.
>
>
>
>
>
> cathy
>
>
>
I'm on this guy's side. Who in the
world doesn't occasionally need a
>
wake-up call? If it's *not* true, why
get defensive about it?
>
>
Peace
>
>
Don Lee
>
Fayetteville, Ark.
Here's
why I sound defensive: I remember being
12 ,13,14 years old and
spouting
off this sort of thing, almost his exact words-without really
believing
it. I firmly believe that it took me
until well into my
twenties
to find my own voice, to really believe that what i have to say
does
make a difference.
So this
kid can spout of his statements as he did above, but what he
really
needs to do is to find his own way, his own voice. Then he can
raise
his voice 'right along' with ours, and 'something new' will have
already
begun.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:09:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Craig Sapp <ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Untitled Nightthoughts
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
impressive
journey --
i
especially liked the image of being appalled at the automatic flushing
device,
the horror of the realization of absurd world. the
ending
stansa is great.
from,
Eric
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997 23:06:00 -0500 First_Name Last_Name
<Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
wrote:
>
untitled
>
> i
> in
the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches
>
such is thus i find myself
> (begrudgingly)
>
>
let us cut to the middle;
>
.right the than important more
no is left the
>
after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms
> and backing out, startled, from the stall,
backwards, appalled
> about automatic motion-sensory flush
mechanisms
> i lurch for the sink.
>
(motion sensored as well)
> to moisten the pores of my face.
>
>
and upon doing so:
>
> ii
>
the sickly lightbulbs flickered
>
three in sight - one by row , three by
column
> the skythe bloodthe
wedding virgin
> in lieu of a reflecting myself
> (since by now i am a gazing
mute)
>
there is only a me - inherently dependent
> upon the siamesetriptych
>
> my
pale skin between self u n r a v e
l s reflection
>
fusingwiththe
> d
> y
> i
> n
> g lights l o o s e l y suspended
before the mirrorrorrim
> at
this other i am many shades
> ove
separate rla distinct pp but ing
>
> iii
> in
the space between
>
the land of the prideful uroboros
> is
red
>
plasma-red with a penchant for
>
repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun
>
> in the soul of the serpent between -
> gluttony mistaken for passion
> and in befuddled innocence - absent
contrition
>
> in
the space between
>
the sky is an obtrusive blue
>
forgetful of the notion of just, just being
>
and the larger airplanes dominate
>
while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow
>
> in the body of the serpent
> my fathers lack the foresight required to
slither
> so, in shame(noshame) effect,
> construct feet, arms and comfortable penny
loafers
>
> in
the keystone of the acid lightbath -
>
dishwater blinding bright
>
rests the virgin's thighs from whence
>
conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth
>
unable to bungee back
>
> the palette of the serpent
> composed of congruent colors by nature
> though, when conjoined by imperfect joints
> - ugly mixture imported meanings
indiscriminate fate -
>
> iv
> i,
in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,
>
backwards take a step with kouros
symmetry
> and retrieve my slingshot
> a series of
>
pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee
>
eeessssssssss
>
and howls rage forth
> purging the essence of mars
> cleansing the sky of its self-appointed
interpreters
> shattering the great white mist permeating
the facade of grandeur
>
> v
> in
the dark i can see nothing
>
there is fear; i falter in my confidence
>
all i have given myself is
>
>
autonomous
>
>
life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -
>
>
the reflection is gone
>
the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness
>
-their reflections pure and true- remain
>
> i
do not move.
> i
inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.
>
this glee-wary uncertainty .
>
>
11-09-97
>
bhr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:02:26 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Untitled Nightthoughts
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7BIT
very
nice stuff. glad i found this as soon as i did during the hoursr
of
shadow.
goodnite
all.
randall
>
untitled
>
> i
> in
the sludge waste back bathroom of the golden arches
>
such is thus i find myself
> (begrudgingly)
>
>
let us cut to the middle;
>
.right the than important more
no is left the
>
after fulfilling my(-oh-my) obligatory daily rhythms
> and backing out, startled, from the stall,
backwards, appalled
> about automatic motion-sensory flush
mechanisms
> i lurch for the sink.
>
(motion sensored as well)
> to moisten the pores of my face.
>
>
and upon doing so:
>
> ii
>
the sickly lightbulbs flickered
>
three in sight - one by row , three by
column
> the skythe bloodthe
wedding virgin
> in lieu of a reflecting myself
> (since by now i am a gazing
mute)
>
there is only a me - inherently dependent
> upon the siamesetriptych
>
> my
pale skin between self u n r a v e
l s reflection
>
fusingwiththe
> d
> y
> i
> n
> g lights l o o s e l y
suspended before the mirrorrorrim
> at
this other i am many shades
> ove
separate rla distinct pp but ing
>
> iii
> in
the space between
>
the land of the prideful uroboros
> is
red
>
plasma-red with a penchant for
>
repetition reppitetion rhepuhtishun
>
> in the soul of the serpent between -
> gluttony mistaken for passion
> and in befuddled innocence - absent
contrition
>
> in
the space between
>
the sky is an obtrusive blue
>
forgetful of the notion of just, just being
>
and the larger airplanes dominate
>
while the smaller wrestle beneath the shadow
>
> in the body of the serpent
> my fathers lack the foresight required to
slither
> so, in shame(noshame) effect,
> construct feet, arms and comfortable penny
loafers
>
> in
the keystone of the acid lightbath -
>
dishwater blinding bright
>
rests the virgin's thighs from whence
>
conceptualizing and awareness bounce forth
>
unable to bungee back
>
> the palette of the serpent
> composed of congruent colors by nature
> though, when conjoined by imperfect joints
> - ugly mixture imported meanings
indiscriminate fate -
>
> iv
> i,
in opposition to partake of this dying color scheme,
>
backwards take a step with kouros
symmetry
> and retrieve my slingshot
> a series of
>
pppppprrrrrroooooooojjjjjjjjjjjeeeeeeccccccctttttttttiiiiiiiiiillllllllllleeee
>
eeessssssssss
>
and howls rage forth
> purging the essence of mars
> cleansing the sky of its self-appointed
interpreters
> shattering the great white mist permeating
the facade of grandeur
>
> v
> in
the dark i can see nothing
>
there is fear; i falter in my confidence
>
all i have given myself is
>
>
autonomous
>
>
life - a concept i wasn't willing for yet -
>
>
the reflection is gone
>
the lightbulbs are gone, but the darkness
>
-their reflections pure and true- remain
>
> i
do not move.
> i
inhale the principles of this uncharted terrain.
>
this glee-wary uncertainty .
>
>
11-09-97
>
bhr
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:22:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Craig Sapp
<ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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greetings
Beat-l people,
i
recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting
pomes
with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter
consort.
called Turtle Island as many of the pieces
are
from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has
anyone
listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at
times
quite animated.
what
about other recordings?
Eric
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:17:12 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: the great novel debate
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>
Subject:
> The Great American Novel
> Date:
> Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700
> From:
> Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
>
>
>
The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
>
what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century
American
>
Novel"?
>
>
I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
>
What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>
something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
>
> I
figure that will be worth a try.
>
>
Best,
>
>
Harold Rhenisch
>
rhenisch@web-trek.net
WHY HAS
NO ONE MENTIONED 'ON THE ROAD' TO BE THE BEST NOVEL OF THE 20TH
CENTURY????????? If you want americana, it's got it, front to
back, all
facets
of america is shown....
that
would be my vote.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:34:12 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Craig Sapp
<ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
MIME-Version:
1.0
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why the
"Great American Novel" in the first place? in the vernacular its
usually
referenced as a joke.
is
there any single Great French novel? or European NOvel? or ... the
great
New York novel? what about the Great Novel of the 19th Century
Written
in Arkansas. is the writernessship of Americans actually
distinctly
classifiable? the question of course is basically no more
than
this if your taking the role of admiring reader, fan: what is your
favorite
novel; if your trying to analyze literary history: what had the
most
impact; or what novel attains some high conceptualization of ART,
anyhow
there aint never gonna be no concensus.
adios,
Eric
ecs4m@virginia.edu
"reason
is such a trickster" -- Sextus
Empiricus
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700 Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
wrote:
>
The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
>
what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th Century
American
>
Novel"?
>
>
I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
>
What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>
something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
>
> I
figure that will be worth a try.
>
>
Best,
>
>
Harold Rhenisch
>
rhenisch@web-trek.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:45:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Craig Sapp
<ecs4m@SERVER1.MAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject: super novel
MIME-Version:
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Content-Type:
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somebody
enthuiastically introduced "On the Road" as a
suitable
candidate for the Great American Novel, and i was
too
wondering why nobody previously had. while i can
certainly
agree that it is one of the greatest novels of
all
time, a broad class, i am not sure if it is even the
best
Kerouac novel. in fact i think Desolation Angels is
better,
of course VOC is up there, etc. if influence is a
reuirement
maybe On the Road has an edge among the Kerouac
books.
in a
sense, Kerouac was consciously trying to formulate a
Great
Stack of American Novels, the Legend.
Eric
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:51:08 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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>should
a great american novel for the 20th century ever be written,
perhaps
>it
would be more the wise to wait until the 20th century in itself be
>accurately
acessed to see what would fit the qualifications.
Perhaps
the great american novel for the 20th century would do that
assessment?
Harold
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:43:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad Enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: super novel
i
like the catcher in the rye. i think it influenced alot of people and
expressed
a universal feeling of unhappiness and
i guess i sorta though of
holden
as like my friend after i read it. i
just really liked that book. i
know
i'm not the judge of the great american novel but for my favorite novel
that
would win.
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:00:41 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SOL.3.95.971109203545.5225B-100000@comp>
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try
"the back country" which i feel is his best work.
also,
"no nature" was released not long ago, which is
new and
selected works. a must read.
sorry i
couldnt attend the reading.
too bad
you havent paid him much attention - i hope
you
will change that.
j
donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:
> I
just returned from a weekend trip four hours south to Hot Springs, where
>
Gary Snyder did a workshop/reading Saturday.
What an amazing experience.
> I
have paid less attention to him perhaps than any of the major Beats. A
>
terrific guy, wonderful reader, beautiful poet. I am out of superlatives.
>
Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just
>
signed and I began reading tonight? (I
took my copy of DHARMA BUMS,
>
though uncertain how he'd feel about signing someone else's
>
book--nonetheless, it being my first exposure to him at age 15, I
>
presented it. He said, "I always sign this one like so," and signed
the
>
title page JAPHY RYDER. Wow.)
>
>
Don Lee
>
Fayetteville, Ark.
>
>
"I make art about the misunderstandings that take place at the
>
border zone, but for me, the border is no longer at any fixed
>
geopolitical site. I carry the border with me, and I find new
>
borders, wherever I go."
> --Guillermo
Gomez-Pena
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:04:45 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Interest from the Illiterate Re: The Great American Novel
In-Reply-To: <346675C6.463B@midusa.net>
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your
questios are well put, and will certainly give me
much to
think about. and im afraid i cant say
that,
at this
point, they can be anything more than
rhetorical
- i dont believe there are any short
answers,
so i wont even try. but im glad you
asked
them,
because i believe i jumped into this discussion
with
first defining my parameters...and that was
dangerous. and although i dont think i can help bring
anything
to these questions right now, i can say that
i will
give them some serious thought. and
maybe ican
return
to them after that. thank you.
j
donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
James Donahue wrote:
>
>
>
> in this question, are you asking which novel is the
>
> great american novel, or are you asking about the
>
> "genre" of great american novel? the first question
>
> has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and
>
> fitzgerald being specifically named in the
>
> discussion). as to the other
choice, i dont know what
>
> you mean. but i believe that we
have decided on this
>
> questions undecidability. but id
love to discuss
>
> alternatives to the genre "novel". but wont this
>
> bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction? and
>
> what do we do about that?
>
>
i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very
>
little i know and understand about all these ideas. I've consistently
>
said to myself -- what is a novel? What
makes it a novel rather than
>
something less or more than a novel? I
honestly have no background or
>
idea. And what does Beat Generation
literature do in altering the
>
conceptions of the novel? What does the
Beat Generation literature do
> to
determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the
>
notions of quality in connection with the novel itself? Some have
>
mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century
>
suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)
> of
linearity? Naked Lunch is suggested as
an exemplar of 20th Century
>
non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model
> of
quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder
>
about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the
>
same motivations that push against linearity.
What is the difference
>
between history and novel? Between
poetry and novel? Between
>
philosophy or social theory and novel?
>
> As
you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little
>
background or understanding of the matter.
It seems partly a question
> of
form, perhaps partly a question of substance.
I honestly haven't
>
been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the
>
parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.
>
>
Clueless in Kansas,
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
>
>
> On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:
>
>
>
> > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
> >
>
> > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th
Century American
>
> > Novel"?
>
> >
>
> > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
> >
>
> > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we
substitute
>
> > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile
ground?
>
> >
>
> > I figure that will be worth a try.
>
> >
>
> > Best,
>
> >
>
> > Harold Rhenisch
>
> > rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
> >
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:07:33 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
In-Reply-To: <B08BBFDB-17A88E@204.244.157.69>
MIME-Version:
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canonization,
baby. the only reason anything in
literature
is deemed "the best." and
whether we like
it or
not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether
we say
something is best or worst, what we teach to
our
students, or even what we buy yo read.
whether we
try to
redefine the canon or stay within its
traditional
bounds...uts all about deciding what is
and is
not worthy of remembrance.
j
donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:
> I
was asking how different readers define "The Great American Novel".
It
>
strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a
>
reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the
>
favourite.
>
>
Best,
>
>
>
Harold Rhenisch
>
rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:12:12 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: the great novel debate
Comments:
To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>
In-Reply-To: <346698D8.418B@comic.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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it was
just a matter of time before it was mentioned.
and i
dont think anyone will disagree on the selection.
maybe
kerouac is a given in any great american writer
debate? and to repond here to someone elses posting,
i dont
see why kerouac cannot be the great american
writer. if anyone, than him. embracing all genres,
all
modes of thought, conscious of the tradition he
was
writing against, in, and for, he certainly
embodied
all a writer should strive for, in all modes.
j
donahue
On Sun,
9 Nov 1997, Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
> Subject:
>
> The Great American Novel
>
> Date:
>
> Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39
-0700
>
> From:
>
> Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
>
>
>
>
>
> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
>
>
> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th
Century American
>
> Novel"?
>
>
>
> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
>
>
> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>
> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
>
>
>
> I figure that will be worth a try.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Harold Rhenisch
>
> rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
WHY HAS NO ONE MENTIONED 'ON THE ROAD' TO BE THE BEST NOVEL OF THE 20TH
>
CENTURY????????? If you want americana,
it's got it, front to back, all
> facets
of america is shown....
>
>
that would be my vote.
>
>
cathy
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:13:12 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder
In-Reply-To:
<SIMEON.9711100028.B@ecs4m95.virginia.edu>
MIME-Version:
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could
you send out the information for the rest of us
to find
or order? thanks.
j
donahue
On Mon,
10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:
>
greetings Beat-l people,
>
> i
recently came across a tape of Gary Snyder reciting
>
pomes with the music accompaniment of the Paul Winter
>
consort. called Turtle Island as many of the pieces
>
are from that book. the performance ca. 1979. has
>
anyone listened to it? he has a calm reading style, at
>
times quite animated.
>
> what
about other recordings?
>
>
>
>
Eric
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 03:14:05 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
In-Reply-To:
<SIMEON.9711100012.C@ecs4m95.virginia.edu>
MIME-Version:
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we ask,
and its all mark twains fault...
On Mon,
10 Nov 1997, Eric Craig Sapp wrote:
>
why the "Great American Novel" in the first place? in the vernacular
its
>
usually referenced as a joke.
>
> is
there any single Great French novel? or European NOvel? or ... the
>
great New York novel? what about the Great Novel of the 19th Century
>
Written in Arkansas. is the writernessship of Americans actually
>
distinctly classifiable? the question of course is basically no more
>
than this if your taking the role of admiring reader, fan: what is your
>
favorite novel; if your trying to analyze literary history: what had the
>
most impact; or what novel attains some high conceptualization of ART,
>
anyhow there aint never gonna be no concensus.
>
>
adios,
>
Eric
>
>
ecs4m@virginia.edu
>
>
"reason is such a trickster"
-- Sextus Empiricus
>
>
> On
Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:22:39 -0700 Harold Rhenisch
>
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET> wrote:
>
>
> The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
>
>
> what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great 20th
Century American
>
> Novel"?
>
>
>
> I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
>
>
> What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we substitute
>
> something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile ground?
>
>
>
> I figure that will be worth a try.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Harold Rhenisch
>
> rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:23:31 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Marcos L. Chavarri"
<mlopez@EUROPAMC.COM>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
Mime-Version:
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One of
the best authors is not a books writer.
I am
talking about William Eisner. You know he is not a beat, that is what
i
think.
He did
the best comic i have never read THE SPIRIT. it was pure black
cinema.
I have
read another publications from him In the Eye of the Storm &
Contract
with God
I know
comic is not very popular but i think Will Eisner is one of the
greatest
of this century.
Marcos
L. Chavarri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:27:33 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Interest from the Illiterate Re: The Great American Novel
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James
Donahue wrote:
>
>
your questios are well put, and will certainly give me
>
much to think about. and im afraid i
cant say that,
> at
this point, they can be anything more than
>
rhetorical - i dont believe there are any short
>
answers, so i wont even try. but im
glad you asked
>
them, because i believe i jumped into this discussion
>
with first defining my parameters...and that was
>
dangerous. and although i dont think i
can help bring
>
anything to these questions right now, i can say that
> i
will give them some serious thought.
and maybe ican
>
return to them after that. thank you.
> j
donahue
>
Damn! I was really hoping there were easy answers
to these questions.
oh
well....
still
cold in Kansas ... i will hybernate again.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
> On
Sun, 9 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> James Donahue wrote:
>
> >
>
> > in this question, are you asking which novel is the
>
> > great american novel, or are you asking about the
>
> > "genre" of great american novel? the first question
>
> > has been asked, and is being discussed (pynchon and
>
> > fitzgerald being specifically named in the
>
> > discussion). as to the other
choice, i dont know what
>
> > you mean. but i believe that
we have decided on this
>
> > questions undecidability. but
id love to discuss
>
> > alternatives to the genre "novel". but wont this
>
> > bring us back to the poetry/prose disctinction? and
>
> > what do we do about that?
>
>
>
> i've been following this thread with my usual recognition of how very
>
> little i know and understand about all these ideas. I've consistently
>
> said to myself -- what is a novel?
What makes it a novel rather than
>
> something less or more than a novel?
I honestly have no background or
>
> idea. And what does Beat
Generation literature do in altering the
>
> conceptions of the novel? What
does the Beat Generation literature do
>
> to determine what constitutes the great American novel -- with the
>
> notions of quality in connection with the novel itself? Some have
>
> mentioned linearity and non-linearity -- what about the 20th Century
>
> suggests the need for redefinition towards the exploding (or imploding)
>
> of linearity? Naked Lunch is
suggested as an exemplar of 20th Century
>
> non-linearity but what motive pushes us towards non-linearity as a model
>
> of quality, and if non-linearity is a pre-requisite of quality i wonder
>
> about the notion of models and exemplars and if they may withstand the
>
> same motivations that push against linearity. What is the difference
>
> between history and novel? Between
poetry and novel? Between
>
> philosophy or social theory and novel?
>
>
>
> As you can see I have questions oh so many questions but very little
>
> background or understanding of the matter. It seems partly a question
>
> of form, perhaps partly a question of substance. I honestly haven't
>
> been able to tell so far from the discussion anything close to what the
>
> parameters of what is accepted as a novel might be.
>
>
>
> Clueless in Kansas,
>
>
>
> david rhaesa
>
> salina, Kansas
>
> >
>
> > On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > The question was asked obliquely, so I will ask it directly:
>
> > >
>
> > > what is "The Great American Novel" or "The Great
20th Century American
>
> > > Novel"?
>
> > >
>
> > > I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. Anyone?
>
> > >
>
> > > What's more, if the form is falling out of vogue, should we
substitute
>
> > > something else for 'Novel', and see if we aren't on more fertile
ground?
>
> > >
>
> > > I figure that will be worth a try.
>
> > >
>
> > > Best,
>
> > >
>
> > > Harold Rhenisch
>
> > > rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
> > >
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 02:30:10 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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James
Donahue wrote:
>
> we
ask, and its all mark twains fault...
>
maybe
Huckelberry Finn can be the great 20th century american novel in
reprint
<grin>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:13:58 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: mr maher's narcissim
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Paul A.
Maher Jr. wrote: (snip)
> I
have no "genre." What I do have is an impulsive delight in playing
with
>
words, any words, that lay before me in a most horrible turgid manner. They,
>
the very instruments of my fancy abused to the point of recklessness. They
>
pitted into cliches and sucked out left bloodless and void of insight and
>
meaning. I seize these words and turn them on their backs with their legs
>
grasping at thin air like turtles upended by a cruel child, and I watch them
>
struggle feebly, disabled momentarily. I assume the chance to solicit the
>
very response I take the time to engender.
___________i
take it from this that this attitude toward the pomes you parodied
from
list members on the list implies that they were turgid, and therfore free
game to
'play' with and insult list poets. your very imagery if you care to look
up, is
violent smug and nasty.there is no excuse for doing what you do to
other's
words.
again
you wrote:
"My
existential
obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef."
-__________so
as this is in continued and every grandiose rationalization for
having
tromped on other's words AND feelings, i guess you think that others are
you.
how long have you had this feeling or thought that you were king of the
universe?
i swore
i wouldn't get back into this gnarly mess, but it drives me wild to see
someone continue to fatten their ego in the face of
requests to stop sniping at
others
on the list.
watch
out, mr maher, you're about to fall into that pond and drown.
i
believe you abuse and not use your signature quote:
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
i do
believe that henry did mean that this gives license to act without manners
or
care
for the feelings of others.
sincerely
mc
> Alas, the universe is a whole. How can
that be denied? Just as man
>
breathes eighteen times a minute, or 25,920 times a day, the equinoctial
>
point of the sun runs through the zodiac once in every 25,920 years. Our
>
hearts beat only one-fourth as fast as our lungs breathe, just as the speed
> of
the propagation of air is four times greater than a film that records the
>
variety of the phenomena of the universe. I am convinced that I am of this
>
world itself, that I embody the living nucleus of the landscape. My
>
existential obsession is constantly to mimetize myslef. Like it, I am a
>
cathedral of strength with a nimbus of dreamlike delirium. My granite
>
structure is equipped with ductilities, haze, glint, quicksands, that hide
>
its needles, its craters, its promontories, the better to let me keep my
> secrets. P.
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:39:59 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: it was a dark and stormy night
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my vote
goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on
the top
of his doghouse.
mc
just
kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this
whole
thread ...
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:48:26 -0800
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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sure,
and while we are at it, lets not forget poe and
all his
rules for decent prose...at least then we will
have
something to go by...
On Mon,
10 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
James Donahue wrote:
>
>
>
> we ask, and its all mark twains fault...
>
>
>
>
maybe Huckelberry Finn can be the great 20th century american novel in
>
reprint <grin>
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:51:33 -0800
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: it was a dark and stormy night
In-Reply-To: <199711101241.HAA02407@pike.sover.net>
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it was
a dark and stormy night when we began this
discussion
(at least in brockton, anyway).
maybe
its time we found something else to discuss.
anybody
feel like talking about kerouac?
by the
way, somebody told me about a new recording
that
came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and
musicians
reading kerouacs works. does ahybody
know
if this
exists, and how i might get a copy?
james
donahue
On Mon,
10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> my
vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on
>
the top of his doghouse.
> mc
>
just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this
>
whole thread ...
> mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:48:00 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: GAN
Don't
want to beat this subject to death but several interesting
questions
have been raised. Why a great American
novel vs european etc.
My
feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and
American
quest to champion opportunities of Individual. It's not just
good
enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether
you're
Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates. Hemingway
often
compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing
metaphors);
Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare. Of
course, the whole
notion
of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people
on the
list have discussing it. I don't think
they'll ever be ONE Great
American
Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a
"genre"
or "sub-genre" of that type:
The Great Gatsby, On The Road (I'd
include
Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not
cheating,
John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced
Kerouac
a good deal, though I can't prove it.
I think the great
American
novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the
American
dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to
believe
that they could "make it new,"
and dramatize how America lives
with
its failed expectations. From my point
of view, it doesn't matter
whether
or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or
realistic
or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above
situation.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:35:13 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: it was a dark and stormy night
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James
Donahue wrote:
>
> it
was a dark and stormy night when we began this
>
discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).
>
maybe its time we found something else to discuss.
>
anybody feel like talking about kerouac?
> by
the way, somebody told me about a new recording
>
that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and
>
musicians reading kerouacs works. does
ahybody know
> if
this exists, and how i might get a copy?
>
james donahue
>
> On
Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>
> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on
>
> the top of his doghouse.
>
> mc
>
> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this
>
> whole thread ...
>
> mc
>
>
Kerouac
- Kicks Joy Darkness
RCD#10329
Rykodisc
USA, Shetland Park, 27 Congress Street, Sale, MA 09170
or
Rykodisc
Ltd. 78 Stanley Gardens, London W3 7SZ UK
david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:32:58 -0000
Reply-To: dcaridade@geocities.com
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From: dcaridade
<dcaridade@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: Changing my email address
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Sorry
about bothering all of you with this, but I've been having some
trouble
with my current email address, does anyone know how can I change my
email
in this list?
Should
I subscribe again under another address? Or is there an easier way?
Thanks,
and my apologies (again) for the bother...
daniel
caridade
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:44:21 UT
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: it was a dark and stormy night
James,
it's called "kicks, joy, darkness".
Borders, Virgin and Tower all
carry
it here.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
James Donahue
Sent: Monday, November 10, 1997 8:51 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: it was a dark and stormy night
it was
a dark and stormy night when we began this
discussion
(at least in brockton, anyway).
maybe
its time we found something else to discuss.
anybody
feel like talking about kerouac?
by the
way, somebody told me about a new recording
that
came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and
musicians
reading kerouacs works. does ahybody
know
if this
exists, and how i might get a copy?
james
donahue
On Mon,
10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> my
vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on
>
the top of his doghouse.
> mc
>
just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this
>
whole thread ...
> mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:55:20 -0700
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: GAN
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997111010053370@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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beat-l'ers
i just
thought that i would throw my hat into the fray a lttle bit and
reply
to some of the below ...
i think
that the great american novel changes depending on the decade and
the
poopular beliefs that you are examining the book thru and as
reflecting
(for instance, some would argue that "sometimes a great
notion"
or "on the road" or" the great gatsby" or "naked
lunch" or "the
sun
also rises" or... is the
GAN,
but each reflects a different era and way of looking at america. for
instance
was 'naked lunch" even conceivable when "the great gatsby" was
written?)
the novel has gone thru a great amount
of changes, in my opinion,
esp
since the creation of the "modern novel" (be that the effect of
joyce's
_ulysses_ and woolf's _mrs.dalloway_) and can pre and post "modern
novel"
novels be measured together? can any two genres be compared?
and on another note altogether - from
what i understand, BIll,
while i
cant think of any reference that kerouac made to DosPassos and the
USA
Trilogy, i know that BUrroughs thought of it as a great influence and
i do
belive refered to it as a precursor to the cut-up and filmic
techniques
that he used later on (ask neil hennessy abt the filmic
techniques
of wsburroughs...)
does any one else know more abt Dos
Passos and his influence on
beat
lit?
yrs
derek
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
>
Don't want to beat this subject to death but several interesting
>
questions have been raised. Why a great
American novel vs european etc.
> My
feeling is that it's part of capitalist competition motive and
>
American quest to champion opportunities of Individual. It's not just
>
good enough to do something well, you've got to be the best whether
>
you're Ernest Hemingway, Bernie Williams, or Bill Gates. Hemingway
>
often compared himself to other writers (usually using boxing
>
metaphors); Kerouac wanted to outdo Shakespeare. Of course, the whole
>
notion of a Great American Novel is silly but look how much fun people
> on
the list have discussing it. I don't
think they'll ever be ONE Great
>
American Novel but certainly a number of books mentioned fit into a
>
"genre" or "sub-genre" of that type: The Great Gatsby, On The Road (I'd
>
include Town & the City too), Huck Finn, Moby Dick, and, if it's not
>
cheating, John Dos Passos' USA trilogy, which I believe influenced
>
Kerouac a good deal, though I can't prove it. I think the great
>
American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the
>
American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to
>
believe that they could "make it new," and dramatize how America lives
>
with its failed expectations. From my
point of view, it doesn't matter
>
whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or
>
realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above
>
situation.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:01:01 -0800
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From: Maggie Gerrity
<u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness
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James,
The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is
probably "Kerouac:
Kicks,
Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,
Michael
Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,
it's
widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for
it. I
know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site
is at
www.cdnow
Maggie G.
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by
Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:06:28 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness
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Maggie
Gerrity wrote:
>
>
James,
> The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is
probably "Kerouac:
>
Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,
>
Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,
>
it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for
>
it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site
> is
at www.cdnow
> Maggie G.
>
CD Now
is also accessible from Keith's Beat web page
http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
throw
something on the Wall while you're passing through.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:42:43 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: kerouac:kicks, joy, darkness
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At
10:06 AM 11/10/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Maggie
Gerrity wrote:
>>
>>
James,
>> The Kerouac recording you're thinking of is
probably "Kerouac:
>>
Kicks, Joy, Darkness," a CD including the likes of Patti Smith,
>>
Michael Stipe, and others reading Kerouac's pomes. As far as I know,
>>
it's widely available, just go to your local music store and ask for
>>
it. I know for sure that it's available through CDNow, whose web site
>>
is at www.cdnow
>> Maggie G.
>>
>
>CD
Now is also accessible from Keith's Beat web page
>
>http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/rothko/31/index.html
>
As well
as The Kerouac Quarterly:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>throw
something on the Wall while you're passing through.
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
>>
__________________________________________________________________
>>
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:49:16 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PCW.3.91.971110030541.10622C-100000@donahujl.bc.edu>
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To hell
with the canon! I remember talking about this in high school and
how the
canon was so lacking in diversity. I used to feel that there were
certain
books that I had to read in order to be well-read but now, I know
better.
I read everything...
On Mon,
10 Nov 1997, James Donahue wrote:
>
canonization, baby. the only reason
anything in
>
literature is deemed "the best."
and whether we like
> it
or not, we all feel the need to canonize, whether
> we
say something is best or worst, what we teach to
>
our students, or even what we buy yo read.
whether we
>
try to redefine the canon or stay within its
>
traditional bounds...uts all about deciding what is
>
and is not worthy of remembrance.
> j
donahue
>
> On
Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote:
>
>
> I was asking how different readers define "The Great American
Novel". It
>
> strikes me that if we are going to choose our favourites, we must have a
>
> reason for doing so, which is probably just as interesting than the
>
> favourite.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
>
>
> Harold Rhenisch
>
> rhenisch@web-trek.net
>
>
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:57:03 -0800
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Gary Snyder
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Donald,
Nice to
make the discovery of Snyder, who comes up off and on and the
list
but is still often ignored on this list.
Were we to check back in
in 50
years or so (which is unlikely for some of us) I would not be
suprised
to see GS seen as the most important of the Beat poets.
I
became addicted to Snyder through "Myths and Texts" and "Rip
Rap"
which
are early, close to the Japhy Ryder stuff.
One should obviously
get his
new magnum opus "Mountains and Rivers".
J.
Stauffer
Donald
G. Jr. Lee wrote:
>
Can anyone recommend anything to me besides, TURTLE ISLAND, which he just
>
signed and I began reading tonight?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:17:23 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: GAN
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>
Bill Gargan wrote:
> I
think the great
>
American novel has to embody the contradictions that characterize the
>
American dream -- has to capture the spirit that led Americans to
>
believe that they could "make it new," and dramatize how America lives
>
with its failed expectations. From my
point of view, it doesn't matter
>
whether or not the novel is linear or not, whether it's symbolic or
>
realistic or a historical saga -- so long as it grapples with the above
>
situation.
I would
agree that what I would hesitantly call. the great American
novel,
must deal with the American spirit and the American dream. It
also
goes back to Kerouac's ideas of genius and the fact that at some
point a
writer will emerge whose genius will be so apparent that he or
she
will take writing to somewhere it has never gone before. And the
time
will emerge when this writer is an American. This is strictly of
course
a personal assessment on my part but no writer that can do this
has
risen from America or any other country since James Joyce. Finnegans
Wake
took both language and the possibilities of human thought beyond
where
they had ever gone before and no one today has had the depth to go
beyond
Finnegans Wake. There are those that
even today label Finnegans
Wake as
unreadable and whoever makes the next breakthrough in literature
will
probably also be characterized as unreadable.
It would also not be
appropriate
to think that someone would write the "American" Finnegans
Wake,
for that would only be an attempt once again to imitate what has
been
done. But to relate this to beat
writers, I do think that we can
call
Allen Ginsberg, the greatest American poet of this century. He
broke
through traditional ideas of poetry to create a new foundation on
which
poetry will grow, he crashed through the ideas and boundaries that
had
limited poetry to forever put it on a new plane. As for what a novel
is, the
most you can say today is that is is prose placed between two
covers. The tradition notions of character,
development, and plot will
never
exist again. Now given Kerouac's own
definition of genius I would
venture
to say he thought of himself as one for initiating spontaneous
prose. I love reading Kerouac and there is no
question that you could
pick up
anything he has written, and say in a few moments, "yes, Kerouac
wrote
this." I believe that he did want
to be the greatest American
writer
of this century and that he wanted his canon of works to represent
that. But I believe he failed (and I'm sure this
can lead to much
discussion)
because, although his writing deals with universal themes and
feelings,
it fails on an intellectual level to encompass the totality of
human
experience. And it is perhaps his
devotion to the spontaneous that
brought
this about. He really did nothing other
than write a semi-stream
of
consciousness that was spontaneous. No
doubt he thought Visions of
Cody to
be his most ambitious effort because he did try to incorporate
dream
and instantaneous recorded thought and build something. You can
see his
admiration of both Joyce and Proust in it but his own creation
did not
break open any new boundaries.
Burroughs, on the other hand, had
a more
intellectual type of genius, and his work skirted the boundaries
and
capabilities of language. He, however,
did not have the knack of
applying
his ideas with a universal appeal to make him "the" novelist of
this
century. Ideally, perhaps his mind
combined with Kerouac's
readability
would have come close. So to end my
argument, I would say
that
the next great "American" novelist will deal with American
consciousness
and a universal unconscious, and he or she will "craft"
something
that will go beyond anything that has been written before, and
that
means in terms of writing it will develop the next level beyond
Finnegans
Wake.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:51:08 +0000
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: it was a dark and stormy night
In-Reply-To: <346729B1.679D@midusa.net>
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thank
you much.
On Mon,
10 Nov 1997 09:35:13 -0600 BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (BEAT-L: Beat
Generation
List) wrote:
>James
Donahue wrote:
>>
>>
it was a dark and stormy night when we began this
>>
discussion (at least in brockton, anyway).
>>
maybe its time we found something else to discuss.
>>
anybody feel like talking about kerouac?
>>
by the way, somebody told me about a new recording
>>
that came out a year (?) ago, with modern poets and
>>
musicians reading kerouacs works. does
ahybody know
>>
if this exists, and how i might get a copy?
>>
james donahue
>>
>>
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>>
>>
> my vote goes to the inimitable snoopy typing his great american novel on
>>
> the top of his doghouse.
>>
> mc
>>
> just kidding, mostly, partly, ahhh i am just getting silly over this
>>
> whole thread ...
>>
> mc
>>
>
>Kerouac
- Kicks Joy Darkness
>
>RCD#10329
>
>Rykodisc
USA, Shetland Park, 27 Congress Street, Sale, MA 09170
>
>or
>
>Rykodisc
Ltd. 78 Stanley Gardens, London W3 7SZ UK
>
>david
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:45:36 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Kerouac and Reading (was Re: GAN)
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
You can
>
see his admiration of both Joyce and Proust in it but his own creation
>
did not break open any new boundaries.
> DC
i'm definitely
not ready to drop the notion of the GAN quest (i'm
formulating
quite a few strings and ethereal amuricanism which hopefully
will
meld in a foundry cauldron over the coming days to suggest
concerning
these)....
BUT,
these
words from Diane made me realize something which i hadn't thought
about
before and which i'd love to know more about.
How did
Kerouac read? When did he read?
I've
read much about his methods and disciplines in writing (and am
still
frankly in awe of his focus -- oh that i could get some Ritalin
prescribed
<grin>)
I've
read quite a bit about the heated discussions between he and other
Beat
"characters" about literature -- wolfeans and anti-wolfeans (as
opposed
to Woolfeans and anti-Woolfeans i suppose).
BUT
I've
not heard much accounting for his practices and habits concerning
Reading
itself.
I'd be
interested for those "in the know" to tell a bit about his
reading
phases and when, what, where, how, etc. he devoured the
literature
he grounded his writings in.
Hope
lots of you have input.
The sun
is shining again in Kansas. A lovely
day indeed.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:09:03 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tom <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Erotic in Burroughs (esp. Naked Lunch)
Mime-Version:
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--Part9711101703A
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Just a
followup to my posting about the erotic in WSB.
I just
finshed my essay! Hurrah! A whole ten mintues in front of the
deadline!
I've
attached a copy incase anyone's interested.
Love to
the whole world (I'm so happy - I've been working on the damn thing all
week).
Peace.
Tom. H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
"Langauge
is a virus."
--Part9711101703A
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