=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:03:49 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.
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Eric
Craig Sapp wrote:
>
> hi
rinaldo,
>
could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.
>
>
from,
>
Eric
>
> On
Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa
>
<rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:
>
>
> cari amici,
>
> Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,
>
> was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and
>
> lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a
>
> friend to Dante Alighieri.
>
> His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,
>
> Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.
>
>
>
> Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'
>
>
>
> * * * * *
* * *
* *
>
> La mia malinconia by Cecco Angiolieri
>
>
>
> La mia malinconia e' tanta
e tale,
>
> ch'e' non discredo che,
s'egli 'l sapesse
>
> un che mi fosse nemico
mortale,
>
> che di me di pietade non
piangesse
>
>
>
> Quella, per cu' m'avven,
poco ne cale;
>
> che mi parebbe, sed ella
volesse
>
> guarir'n un punto di tutto
tutto 'l mie male
>
> sed ella pur: - I' t'odio -
mi dicesse
>
>
>
> Ma quest'e' la risposta
c'ho da lei;
>
> e ched'i vad'a far li fatti
miei;
>
> ch'ella non cura s'i' ho
gi'oi' o pene
>
> men ch'una paglia che le va
tra' piei:
>
> mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a
le' mi diene.
>
>
>
> * * * * *
* * *
* *
>
>
>
> un saluto a tutti,
>
> Rinaldo.
hi
rinaldo,
so good
to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:10:13 +0000
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Comments: Authenticated sender is
<randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal
<randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: GAN
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Hello
Attila and alll,
>
When I read Kerouac, I want to write.
>
>
When I read Vonnegut, I want to read.
>
true
true. never read on the road if you can't drive.
>
But the best book for me is
>
Confederacy of Dunces by John Kennedy Toole.
>
A#1
yes, it
is a wonderful book, but definetly not the Great American
Novel.
Perhaps the Great New Orleans Novel. if anyone wants a real
funny
book and/or ever lived in New Orleans (preferably thirty odd
years
ago) this is the book for you. no higher praise can be given
for a
book of this stature.
>
> so
it goes, Attila
>
Randall
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 03:22:03 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Shani St.John"
<lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: FW: LECTURE SERIES
----------
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 1997 9:42 PM
To: 'Beat-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'
Subject: LECTURE SERIES
I'm
sponsoring a lecture series on the beats.
it will feature (if I can get
them)
Gary Snyder, Larry Ferlinghetti, and Gerald Nicosia Snyder. What do you
guys
think about these choices. Have you
heard any of these writers
speak(besides
Snyder)?
Thanks!!!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:49:05 EST
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Ferlinghetti recording
A while
back someone asked about recordings of Ferlinghetti reading "A
Coney
Island of the Mind." Going through
some spoken word records in my
collection
this evening I came across an album called "San Francisco
Poets"
on the Evergreen label. It includes an
excerpt from Coney Island
of the
Mind and a poem called "Dog" by Ferlinghetti. Also featured are
Brother
Antoninus, Kenneth Rexroth, Robert Duncan, Michael McClure,
Philip
Whalen, Allen Ginsberg, James Broughton, Josephine Miles, and
Jack
Spicer. Sorry if this information was
already posted.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:55:50 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: star wars and Kerouac?
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>its
a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars. Before you all
>accuse
me of being shallow, think about this: star wars is an epic film
>of
>imagination,
a modern myth using ideas from classic literature. There's
>a
>book
out right now that compares the star wars genre to myth. Would the
>beats
"dig" such cinematic attempts?
I think that jack's view on sci-fi was
that it was an attempt to
renew
the vitality of literature without making progressions is
writing...
i remember reading something to that effect.
what he
would've
thought of the movie i don't know for sure, obviously. star
wars is
a classic regardless, because it has everything, i use it often
as a
comparison in lit classes, much to instructors' distress... i
think
that jack might have appreciated the grandioseness of it, but may
have
classified it as rehash.. hard to say.. considering how
ever-changing
jack was, it's hard to say what he would've been like in
'77,
except for the sincere core of his being.
Makes me wonder how his still being alive
today would've affected
his
popularity... i also wonder if he would've continued to make new
progressions
in writing or if he would've stuck with what he'd
achieved...
again, hard to say... it's pretty pointless in wondering, i
don't
think jack was meant to live to a ripe old age..
despite
his domestic desires. a lot like jesus
christ, especially his
portrayal
in last temp. of christ... reminds me of jack's life.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:07:45 -0500
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From: "M .Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: star wars and Kerouac?
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At
01:57 PM 13/11/97 -0500, jason wrote:
>its
a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars.
>Before you all accuse me of being shallow, think
>about
this: star wars is an epic film of imagination,
>a
modern myth using ideas from classic literature.
>There's
a book out right now that compares the
>star
wars genre to myth. Would the
>beats
"dig" such cinematic attempts?
Luke
Skywalker and Buddha have a lot in common.
Guatanama
Sakyamumi had been protected by his
father
from the knowledge of age, sickness, death, etc.
And LS
was protected by his uncle from the knowledge
of his
father, the *force*, etc. And as all
young people do,
they
both rebelled and looked for other experiences.
In the
end, when they were ready, they both gained the
"force,"
or "enlightenment."
I
believe a good look at Joseph Campbell's _The Hero
With A
Thousand Faces_ would be wise. If I
remember
correctly,
he was some how connected to George Lucas
for
these movies.
"May
the force be with you!!"
Yoda
(woops, I mean Mike)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:08:47 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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>What
I was really wondering was if the rhythm, tempo (all the musical
>elements,
etc.) are something more than just an efficient delivery
>system,
>but
actually, really and truly, and independently of any merely personal
>and
subjectve psychology, add to the meaning of a literary work. I think
>it's
pretty obvious that it does, but how exactly, and what is the
>precise
>nature
of this addition? I want something more than psychology here.
>But
what could this "more" be?--
most definitely. adding to the meaning? do you mean theme?
mood?
value
of the work? very simply, let's say we
have a scene rapidly
progressing
in time, a staccato rhythm conveys that sense, and drives
the
reader furiously forward. same as
longer, more mellifluous rhythms
will
often do the opposite. more than
psych? well, if you're looking
at it
from the point of view of writing, as in how you're writing,
regardless
o subject matter, yes, it's essential to be conscious of it.
how else? there are infinite subtle
intricacies that some would
disagree
with.. depending on your view of the reader's subconscious
mind. repitition being a form of rhythm, take
jack's commonly used
words,
night, sky, stars, or colors, or the wonderful red slant light
that
indicates sudden passing revelation, placed in key points
throughout
a large work the mind will connect those moments because of
these
recurring phenomena. so we have an
element that significantly
contributes
to unification, and which aids in collapsing the work into
a more
instantly perceived thing.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:15:45 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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>Isn't
this what opera was supposed to accomplish? It was supposed to be
>the
Consummate Art precisely because it united words, music, visual arts
>(the
scene design & costumes), and I suppose you could also integrate
>dance
into it if you wanted. But so many people find opera intolerable!
>Maybe
there's such a thing as trying to include too much and ending up
>with
a clumsy dinosaur.
well, when i talk about this melding i'm
almost always referring
to
writing; incorporating these things into the written work. my
interest
when i mention this is in pushing lit/writing further, rather
than
the entire realm of art. i also mean a
combination that leaves no
visible
seams. opera is a form, an in being so
is uniform as a whole,
there
are standards and they are followed.
it's the same skeleton.
the
point is to make a new animal. of course
you have to build on
what's
come before, but that influence needs to be renounced after it's
been
used as a stepping stone.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:18:46 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: GAN
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> Once I was sitting on a bench in Boston
Common and a crazy man
>came
down the path from that Civil War memorial. He was an old man about
>fifty
or sixty and the lapels of his coat were covered with celluloid
>buttons
that said, "O, You Kid," "Keep Cool With Coolidge,"
"Cow Brand
>Soda,"
"The Jolly Chums Club," and things like that.
i think i know this guy. :)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:06:04 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat courses
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Neil,
a
couple of years ago I took an American Lit course and Lolita was on the
syl. It was an upper level course and one of the
exam questions asked us
to
argue pro or con, for or against introducing Lolita to students of a
freshman
lit course. Probably a good question
for anyone who wants to
teach
the book.
Does Nabokov appear on many American Lit
syllabi? I
>haven't
seen him listed for courses in and around my school.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:37:29 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Irving Leif
<ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat and Kerouac books for sale
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Plase
send me this list. Thanks!!
At
03:46 AM 11/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>If
you are interested in a short list of Kerouac and beat books for sale
>(most
are collectible) please e mail me and I will send you the list.
>
>thanks
>Attila
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:03:39 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat courses
In-Reply-To:
<v01540b00b09152d890e0@[146.201.2.123]>
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I read
Lolita on my own and I thought it was the best book I had read in
awhile.
Of course, the movie version has been censored here in the US but
not in
Europe...
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:00:11 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
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From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: ATTN: DAVID MELTZER
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Hello
all:
I seem
to recall at one time or another running across a person either
on this
list or the other one i'm on by the name of David Meltzer.
David,
I just wanted to let you know i picked up a copy of 'New American
Writing'
that has 'from BEAT THING' in it.
enjoyed
it much
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:15:53 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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Tyson
Ouellette wrote:
> of
course you have to build on
>
what's come before, but that influence needs to be renounced after it's
>
been used as a stepping stone.
i
didn't understand the need or purpose of this renunciation you
suggest. could you expand on your notion?
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:51:09 -0800
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Gary - Larry - Harry Lecture Series!
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> Does anyone actually call him
Larry?...it doesn't exactly trip off
> my
tongue.
Antoine,
If they
were to call Mr. Ferlinghetti
"Larry" they would be reminded
that it
is "Lawrence". Not Mr. F, not
Larry, Lawrence.
I have
heard him react this way when addressed as Larry by the son of a
Beat
Icon.
J.
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:02:09 -0800
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lolita on film
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Glad to
see some drums beating for V. Nabokov who in my mind is the
writer
in this century who most closely resembles a genius like Mozart,
especially
when you consider his ability to write marvelous Russian,
French
and English. Lolita is one of the great
books of our time in my
op.
As I
understand it the current film version is not so much censored as
having
one hell of a time attracting a distributor--certainly the theme
is even
harder to deal with in this PC environment than it was when the
orignial
film was released and apparently the financial terms are also
unnatractive.
Don't
forget the great version of Lolita that already is out and in
video
near you. One of my top five films of
all time, I think. Sellers
and
Mason are magnificent. Kubrick at his
best. Nabokov screenplay.
I am
eager to see if the current film comes close--I do like the idea of
Jeremy
Irons as Humbert.
J.
Stauffer
Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
Of course, the movie version has been
censored here in the US but
>
not in Europe...
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:13:59 -0800
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Lolita]
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Mike,
Yes
it's odd, my name seems to appear in the reply to area rather than
Beat
L. There are a few others like that,
for most of you it's a list
reply. Maybe Bill is trying to shut me up, or maybe
because I have
advocated
that format that is what I get! I think
Leon's is the same.
Hmmmmm.
J.
Stauffer
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To:
stauffer@pacbell.net
From:
"M .Cakebread" <cake@ionline.net>
Subject:
Re: Lolita
Ahh, I
noticed that the auto-thingy is on and this
is
going to you James - not the list.
Hmm? If
you
think anyone else would be interested in this
you can
forward it to Beat-l.
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------
Just
perusing my copy of _Lolita_ and noticed the
prelude
was by a "favorite" professor of a few of the people
mentioned
here from time to time. {;^>
>From
the Berkeley Medallion Edition, November, 1966
LOLITA
"In
recent fiction no lover has thought of his beloved with
so much
tenderness, no woman has been so charmingly
evoked,
in such grace and delicacy, as Lolita; it is one of
the few
examples of rapture in modern writing. . . .
I think
that the real reason why Mr. Nabokov chose his
outrageous
subject matter is that he wanted to write a
story
about love.
Lolita
is about love. Perhaps I shall be
better understood
if I
put the statement in this form: Lolita is not about sex,
but
about love. Almost every page sets
forth some explicit
erotic
emotion or some overt erotic action and still is not
about
sex. It is about love. This makes it unique in my
experience
of contemporary novels. . . ."
Lionel
Trilling
--------------790413741ACA--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:14:22 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.
In-Reply-To: <346B9565.6EE7@midusa.net>
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At
18.03 13/11/97 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>Eric
Craig Sapp wrote:
>>
>>
hi rinaldo,
>>
could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.
>>
>>
from,
>>
Eric
>>
>>
On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa
>>
<rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:
>>
>>
> cari amici,
>>
> Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,
>>
> was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and
>>
> lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a
>>
> friend to Dante Alighieri.
>>
> His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,
>>
> Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.
>>
>
>>
> Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'
>>
>
>>
> * * * * *
* * *
* *
>>
> La mia malinconia by Cecco Angiolieri
>>
>
>>
> La mia malinconia e' tanta
e tale,
>>
> ch'e' non discredo che,
s'egli 'l sapesse
>>
> un che mi fosse nemico
mortale,
>>
> che di me di pietade non
piangesse
>>
>
>>
> Quella, per cu' m'avven,
poco ne cale;
>>
> che mi parebbe, sed ella
volesse
>>
> guarir'n un punto di tutto
tutto 'l mie male
>>
> sed ella pur: - I' t'odio -
mi dicesse
>>
>
>>
> Ma quest'e' la risposta
c'ho da lei;
>>
> e ched'i vad'a far li fatti
miei;
>>
> ch'ella non cura s'i' ho
gi'oi' o pene
>>
> men ch'una paglia che le va
tra' piei:
>>
> mal grado h'abbi Amor, ch'a
le' mi diene.
>>
>
>>
> * * * * *
* * *
* *
>>
>
>>
> un saluto a tutti,
>>
> Rinaldo.
>
>hi
rinaldo,
>
>so
good to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
cari
amici,
the
Cecco Angiolieri poem is written in very ancient italian,
the
time (XIII century) when i.e. the ego was "I" (note the italian
"I"
use in the ancient italian sentence "I' t'odio"= "i hate
you!",
then
the use was dismissed, now of course the italian people is
less
egocentric...).
the
poem is in a bunch of poems written by Cecco Angiolieri, prolific
medieval
writer .
well,
for the poem "La mia malinconia" Cecco is in sad blue feeling,
his
girlfriend parted from him. Cecco is hopeless...
* *
* * *
* * *
* * * *
My melancholy by Cecco Angiolieri
my melancholy is deep
that even a my worse
enemy
would have pity for me
but the woman
she doesn't care about
my melancholy
she doesn't tell to me
not even I hate!
If she tells me
"I hate you"
it would cure my
melancholy
but the woman
she tell me go away!
she doesn't care about
my melancholy
she tramples on my
sorrow like grass
under her feet.
* *
* * *
* * *
* * *
*
i think
it's wonderful to post the original poem by Cecco (the
poem
that Lawrence Ferlinghetti mimes in ''Alla maniera di
Cecco
Angiolieri'')
* * * *
* * *
* * *
* *
S'i' fosse foco by Cecco Angiolieri
S'i' fosse foco arderei 'l
mondo;
s'i' fosse vento, lo
tempesterei;
s'i' fossi acqua i' l'annegherei;
4 s'i' fosse Dio mandereil'en
profondo;
s'i' fosse papa, sare' allor
giocondo,
che' tutti cristiani
imbrigherei;
s'i' fosse 'mperator, sa' che
farei?
8 A tutti mozzarei lo capo a
tondo.
S'i' fosse morte anderei da
mio padre;
s'i' fossi vita, fuggirei da
lui:
11 similmente far'ia da mi' madre.
* *
* * *
* * * *
* * *
translation
of the above poem
by
courtesy of Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri
Cecco
Angiolieri IF I WERE FIRE
---------------- --------------
IF I
WERE FIRE, I WOULD BURN THE WORLD;
IF I
WERE WIND, IWOULD STORM IT;
IF I
WERE WATER, I WOULD DROWN IT;
IF I
WERE GOD, I WOULD SEND IT INTO DEPTH;
IF I
WERE THE POPE, I WOULD THEN BE HAPPY,
BECAUSE
I WOULD TROUBLE ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE;
IF I
WERE THE EMPEROR, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO?
I WOULD
COMPLETELY DECAPITATE EVERYONE
IF I
WERE DEATH, I WOULD GO TO MY FATHER;
IF I
WERE LIFE, I WOULD ESCAPE FROM HIM:
IN THE
SAME WAY I WOULD BEHAVE WITH MY MOTHER.
IF I
WERE CECCO, AS I AM AND HAS BEEN,
I WOULD
CHOSE YOUNG AND BEAUTIFUL WOMEN:
AND
LEAVE THE OLD AND UGLY ONES FRO SOMEONE OTHER.
* *
* * *
* * *
* * *
*
un caro
saluto a tutti,
Rinaldo
e "Kikka".
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 07:45:13 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.
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rinaldo,
wonderful poems, you make us open up. i do fear you have set a
a poor
example, for we are too provincial,
should you ask us for to
please
post our words in italian too.
ciao
patricia
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
> At
18.03 13/11/97 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>
>Eric Craig Sapp wrote:
>
>>
>
>> hi rinaldo,
>
>> could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.
>
>>
>
>> from,
>
>> Eric
>
>>
>
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa
>
>> <rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:
>
>>
>
>> > cari amici,
>
>> > Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,
>
>> > was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and
>
>> > lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a
>
>> > friend to Dante Alighieri.
>
>> > His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,
>
>> > Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.
>
>> >
>
>> > Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'
>
>> >
>
>> > * * *
* * *
* * *
*
>
>> > La mia
malinconia by Cecco
Angiolieri
>
>> >
>
>> > La mia malinconia
e' tanta e tale,
>
>> > ch'e' non discredo
che, s'egli 'l sapesse
>
>> > un che mi fosse
nemico mortale,
>
>> > che di me di
pietade non piangesse
>
>> >
>
>> > Quella, per cu'
m'avven, poco ne cale;
>
>> > che mi parebbe,
sed ella volesse
>
>> > guarir'n un punto
di tutto tutto 'l mie male
>
>> > sed ella pur: - I'
t'odio - mi dicesse
>
>> >
>
>> > Ma quest'e' la
risposta c'ho da lei;
>
>> > e ched'i vad'a far
li fatti miei;
>
>> > ch'ella non cura
s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene
>
>> > men ch'una paglia
che le va tra' piei:
>
>> > mal grado h'abbi
Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.
>
>> >
>
>> > * * *
* * * *
* * *
>
>> >
>
>> > un saluto a tutti,
>
>> > Rinaldo.
>
>
>
>hi rinaldo,
>
>
>
>so good to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>david rhaesa
>
>salina, Kansas
>
>
>
cari amici,
>
>
the Cecco Angiolieri poem is written in very ancient italian,
>
the time (XIII century) when i.e. the ego was "I" (note the italian
>
"I" use in the ancient italian sentence "I' t'odio"=
"i hate you!",
>
then the use was dismissed, now of course the italian people is
>
less egocentric...).
>
>
the poem is in a bunch of poems written by Cecco Angiolieri, prolific
>
medieval writer .
>
>
well, for the poem "La mia malinconia" Cecco is in sad blue feeling,
>
his girlfriend parted from him. Cecco is hopeless...
>
>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
*
*
> My melancholy by Cecco Angiolieri
>
> my melancholy is deep
> that even a my worse enemy
> would have pity for
me
>
> but the woman
> she doesn't care
about my melancholy
> she doesn't tell to
me not even I hate!
> If she tells me
"I hate you"
> it would cure my
melancholy
>
> but the woman
> she tell me go away!
> she doesn't care
about my melancholy
> she tramples on my
sorrow like grass
> under her feet.
>
>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
*
*
>
> i
think it's wonderful to post the original poem by Cecco (the
>
poem that Lawrence Ferlinghetti mimes in ''Alla maniera di
>
Cecco Angiolieri'')
>
>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
*
*
>
> S'i' fosse foco by Cecco Angiolieri
>
> S'i' fosse foco arderei 'l
mondo;
> s'i' fosse vento, lo
tempesterei;
> s'i' fossi acqua i'
l'annegherei;
>
4 s'i' fosse Dio
mandereil'en profondo;
>
> s'i' fosse papa, sare' allor
giocondo,
> che' tutti cristiani
imbrigherei;
> s'i' fosse 'mperator, sa' che
farei?
>
8 A tutti mozzarei lo capo
a tondo.
>
> S'i' fosse morte anderei da
mio padre;
> s'i' fossi vita, fuggirei da
lui:
>
11 similmente far'ia da mi'
madre.
>
>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
*
*
>
translation of the above poem
> by
courtesy of Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri
>
>
Cecco Angiolieri IF I
WERE FIRE
>
---------------- --------------
>
> IF
I WERE FIRE, I WOULD BURN THE WORLD;
> IF
I WERE WIND, IWOULD STORM IT;
> IF
I WERE WATER, I WOULD DROWN IT;
> IF
I WERE GOD, I WOULD SEND IT INTO DEPTH;
>
> IF
I WERE THE POPE, I WOULD THEN BE HAPPY,
>
BECAUSE I WOULD TROUBLE ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE;
> IF
I WERE THE EMPEROR, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO?
> I
WOULD COMPLETELY DECAPITATE EVERYONE
>
> IF
I WERE DEATH, I WOULD GO TO MY FATHER;
> IF
I WERE LIFE, I WOULD ESCAPE FROM HIM:
> IN
THE SAME WAY I WOULD BEHAVE WITH MY MOTHER.
>
> IF
I WERE CECCO, AS I AM AND HAS BEEN,
> I
WOULD CHOSE YOUNG AND BEAUTIFUL WOMEN:
>
AND LEAVE THE OLD AND UGLY ONES FRO SOMEONE OTHER.
>
>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
*
*
>
> un
caro saluto a tutti,
>
Rinaldo e "Kikka".
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:12:48 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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Leon
wrote:
> It
is easy for elders to disrespect the younger ones. The elders who
>
have aquired years of experience which is weighty but can be very very
>
wrong also. Personally I think that quite possibly Vonnegut dismissed
>
another young person's question, the way some of us dismiss the ways of
>
the "x-generation".
Going
back to the x-generation thread:
maybe
this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates
exactly
why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the
grungekids)
spends so much time bitching about how people don't really
understand
them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to
understand...
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:26:16 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: star wars and kerouac
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>
Subject:
> star wars and Kerouac?
> Date:
> Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:57:43 -0500
> From:
> "PoOka(the friendly ghost)"
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
>
>
>
its a shame that Kerouac didn't live to see star wars. Before you all
>
accuse me of being shallow, think about this: star wars is an epic film of
>
imagination, a modern myth using ideas from classic literature. There's a
>
book out right now that compares the star wars genre to myth. Would the
>
beats "dig" such cinematic attempts?
> jason
think
of it this way: wasn't "The
Shadow" essentially the cinema of
kerouac's
childhood???? From what i understand,
he had a great affinity
for
that radio program.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:20:31 -0500
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Special! Selected Letters$15.00
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I have
the first issue of Selected Letters Vol. I in hardcover by Jack
Kerouac
for sale. Only $15.00! There are several copies. With this, I will
include
the second Kerouac Quarterly. Go to the web site for more info:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks, Paul. . .
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:34:22 PST
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From: cheryl broderick
<T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: beat courses
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Caroline
Cassady speaks to UEA this Thursday.
Huzzah!
Tom.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:43:38 PST
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From: cheryl broderick <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History
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I have
been looking at Joan Vollmer and Bill for the background to a short
story.
Once
again, it seems that there are discrepancies (right word?) between
different
accounts
of what happened. Does anyone know
where I can get a full, and
hopefully
correct version of that fatal day?
Joyce Johnson has them drinking at
home,
Miles has them in a room above a bar.
Johnson has Joan suggesting the
routine,
Miles (and WSB) has Bill suggesting it.
I know I've brought this up
before,
but I'm
more interested now due to it being research.
Tom. H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
"When
the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:46:20 PST
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From: cheryl broderick
<T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Joan Volllmer(-Adams) Burroughs
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While
I'm on the subject, does anyone know of anything by Joan, letters,
stories,
poems? I think there's an archive somewhere, but
it'll be in the states,
which'll
make it
difficult for me to get at, if I was even going to take it that far.
When was
she
born? (Well, really, how old was she when she died?) Are there are other
accounts
of Joan apart from WSB biographies and Minor Characters? I suppose
there
might be something in Off The Road... better go check that one.
Cheers,
Tom. H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
"When
the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:22:23 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: GAN
In-Reply-To:
<msg1223284.thr-e9d9d91d.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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>> Once I was sitting on a bench in Boston
Common and a crazy man
>>came
down the path from that Civil War memorial. He was an old man about
>>fifty
or sixty and the lapels of his coat were covered with celluloid
>>buttons
that said, "O, You Kid," "Keep Cool With Coolidge,"
"Cow Brand
>>Soda,"
"The Jolly Chums Club," and things like that.
>
> i think i know this guy. :)
What
was it that convinced you he was crazy. Being in Boston? Hanging
around
the Commons? Wearing buttons?
What
year was it? Back in the 50's while in
school in Boston, there were
times
when I felt--and probably looked--50 or 60.
What
were you wearing that day?
j grant
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:35:58 -0500
Reply-To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mongo BearWolf
<mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>
Organization:
Dartmouth College
Subject: Ginsberg Artwork - forwarded inquiry
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Hi
folks...
I'm
forwarding the following inquiry from a correspondent who is not on
the
list. Please reply DIRECTLY to Jay, not
to me. Thanks!
--Mongo
---------------
Hello,
I'm an
art dealer in New York. I've been offered a drawing of
Allen
Ginsberg, signed by Allen Ginsberg.
My
search through various sales databases of auction results
has not
yielded any of Ginsberg's art that has sold at auction.
Is
there a private market, or dealers who specialize in his art? Was
he a
painter, in addition to being a poet?
The owner of the drawing
tells
me that it's a pastel painting, and it's obviously a portrait
of
Ginsberg.
Your comments
would be appreciated.
Thank
you,
Jay
Levin
finart@worldnet.att.net
--------------------------------------------------------
...visit...
ALLEN GINSBERG:
Shadow Changes into Bone
The Clearinghouse for all things
Ginsberg!
http://www.ginzy.com
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:03:53 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: GAN
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>What
was it that convinced you he was crazy. Being in Boston? Hanging
>around
the Commons? Wearing buttons?
>What
year was it? Back in the 50's while in
school in Boston, there
>were
>times
when I felt--and probably looked--50 or 60.
no, i'm just a lad of 20, but it did remind
me of a crazy in boston
i
know... i know most of the prominent bums around certain sections of
boston...
they're pretty cool guys.. but this
guy it reminded me of
sorta
looks like castro, about his age, and he wears green jacket and
pants
similar to military fatigue, and he's gut a castro gut... and the
hat
too, he's always arguing with someone that i can't see, but who i'm
sure is
there, it's just that this guy is on a different level of
existence
than i am.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:19:18 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: 1st & last response to Grant's
attempt to start a flame war.
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19971113183354.006a494c@pop.pipeline.com>
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>I'm
an ex-con? I stole library books. Jack
Kerouac stole the Buddhist
>Bible
from the New York >Public Library. Huncke stole coats and Neal
>Cassady
stole cars. Am I not in good company with >the subject matter?
On one
level it appears that you are.
Splash.
j grant
Small Press Publishers and
Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
453,989
Visitors 07-01-96 to 07-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:10:04 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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>i
didn't understand the need or purpose of this renunciation you
>suggest. could you expand on your notion?
when i said renounced i didn't mean
disregarding one's influence
in a
negative manner, i meant more use the foundation but then burn it
once
the house is built. Buddhism is a good
example, its very precepts
lead to
its eventual renouncing, know what i mean?
or like nasa
shuttles
drop their thrusters once they've achieved orbit...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:14:07 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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>maybe
this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates
>exactly
why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the
>grungekids)
spends so much time bitching about how people don't really
>understand
them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to
>understand...
yeah, but that's the case throughout
history; parents never
understand
their kids habits/culture...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:21:00 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: The Great American Novel
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Tyson
Ouellette wrote:
>
>
>i didn't understand the need or purpose of this renunciation you
> >suggest. could you expand on your notion?
>
> when i said renounced i didn't mean
disregarding one's influence
> in
a negative manner, i meant more use the foundation but then burn it
>
once the house is built. Buddhism is a
good example, its very precepts
>
lead to its eventual renouncing, know what i mean? or like nasa
>
shuttles drop their thrusters once they've achieved orbit...
detach?
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:09:29 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
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Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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At
12:14 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>maybe
this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates
>>exactly
why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the
>>grungekids)
spends so much time bitching about how people don't really
>>understand
them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to
>>understand...
>
> yeah, but that's the case throughout history;
parents never
>understand
their kids habits/culture...
>
>
I think
it is the opposite. The parents
understand all too well having been
there
before.
Youngsters
always think they are unique.
Youngsters
also have more time and inclination to care about if they are
"really
understood".
Parents
understand all too well, understanding is not the problem.
I think
a lack of trust of faith in the youngster's ability to muddle
through
like the rest of humanity has done is more the crux of any friction
than a
lack of understanding. This lack of
faith though is based upon the
strong
understanding of the kids, so strong that there becomes and
identification
and a projection and then a protectionism wherein the parent
sees
the kid making all the same mistakes they made. Thye forget they are
also
learning the same things they learned and having the necessary
experiences
they has as well.
So the
parents make the same mistakes their parents made and the kids make
the
same mistakes the parents made as kids.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:43:53 -0500
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From: Frances J Green
<fjgst7+@PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: star wars and Kerouac?
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On Thu,
13 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
> i
finally broke down and watched them the summer before last after so
>
many years of hearing about the Campbell connection (ending my quest to
> be
the only living American that hadn't seen them <smile>).
>
>
perhaps i need to see them again. my
first impression was that Joseph
>
Campbell's spin on them the Bill Moyer's videos is better than the
>
movies themselves.
>
>
horribly un-American,
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
I've never seen them either - nor do I plan to
- despite any vague ideas
that
the Beats would've loved them. I'm upset you gave in - hopefully my
will
power is stronger.
Fran
Green
Pittsburgh,
PA
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:14:55 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> At
12:14 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>maybe this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates
>
>>exactly why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of
the
>
>>grungekids) spends so much time bitching about how people don't really
>
>>understand them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to
>
>>understand...
>
>
>
> yeah, but that's the case
throughout history; parents never
>
>understand their kids habits/culture...
>
>
>
>
>
> I
think it is the opposite. The parents
understand all too well having been
>
there before.
>
>
Youngsters always think they are unique.
>
>
Youngsters also have more time and inclination to care about if they are
>
"really understood".
>
>
Parents understand all too well, understanding is not the problem.
>
> I
think a lack of trust of faith in the youngster's ability to muddle
> through
like the rest of humanity has done is more the crux of any friction
>
than a lack of understanding. This lack
of faith though is based upon the
>
strong understanding of the kids, so strong that there becomes and
>
identification and a projection and then a protectionism wherein the parent
>
sees the kid making all the same mistakes they made. Thye forget they are
>
also learning the same things they learned and having the necessary
>
experiences they has as well.
>
> So
the parents make the same mistakes their parents made and the kids make
>
the same mistakes the parents made as kids.
probably
not limited to just "mistakes" if you mean that in a negative
sense. if you mean "mistakes" in that
being a child or parent is a
series
of happy and unhappy accidents giving a double sided emotion to
the
word "mistakes" then it seems to make plenty of sense.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:33:36 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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Personally,
Ive blessed with parents that do understand, whatever it is
there
is to understand. I think most parents do, more than my peers care
to
realize.
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:34:32 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Tougue in Cheek
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Just
thought I'd let you all know that I got my tounge pierced this
afternoon.
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:45:59 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Cecco Angiolieri an Ancient Beat.
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After Dino Campana by Lawrence Ferlinghetti
'Song of Myself and Others'?
O what a laugh that is
When all I ever wanted
was to voice an
inchoate
elementary fury
A spirit that frees itself
and flies
to the top of
a tree to sing
in the ultimate
red sunset
O tree without birds
standing mute!
* *
* * *
* * *
* * *
cari
amici,
Lawrence
Ferlinghetti has celebrated the tuscan poetry
connected
with beat poetry and it's right. Of course
there's
another 2 line in italian poetry: it's the
sicily
poetry and venetian poetry. speaking of
venetian
poetry
(or lombard) it's more roughly and picaresque.
The
tuscan poetry is more soft and better, so the root
of the
italian language tuscan, sicilian and venetian,
it's
better choice the tuscan language. Lawrence Ferlinghetti
wrote
another poem to celebrate a tuscan poet such as
Dino
Campana who was suffering during his life a heavy
mental
illness and died in a mental hospital.
* *
* * *
* * *
* * *
for
those who like Federico Fellini's movies there's in
the
movie titled "Amarcord" (1975) the mad uncle on the
top of
the tree shouting "a woman! i want a woman!"
but on
evening went the dwarf nun and the madman goes back
peacefully
to the hospital, an unforgettable scene.
I dunno
if Fellini was suggested by the above poem
"After
Dino Campana" or vice versa.
un
saluto a tutti, a good saturday to everybody,
Rinaldo.
* *
* * *
* * *
* * *
At
07.45 14/11/97 -0600, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>rinaldo,
wonderful poems, you make us open up. i do fear you have set a
>a
poor example, for we are too provincial,
should you ask us for to
>please
post our words in italian too.
>ciao
>patricia
>Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>>
>>
At 18.03 13/11/97 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>>
>Eric Craig Sapp wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> hi rinaldo,
>>
>> could you maybe post an english translation of this poem.
>>
>>
>>
>> from,
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:36 +0100 Rinaldo Rasa
>>
>> <rinaldo@GPNET.IT> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > cari amici,
>>
>> > Cecco Angiolieri born in Siena (near Florence) in 1260,
>>
>> > was an italian poet, he was involved in brawls and
>>
>> > lawsuit for don't do the military service. He was a
>>
>> > friend to Dante Alighieri.
>>
>> > His feeling is't picaresque but a mix of spleen and joy,
>>
>> > Lawrence Ferlighetti appreciates Angiolieri's poetry.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Now i post a poem by Cecco Angiolieri dated at end of the 1200s'
>>
>> >
>>
>> > * * *
* * *
* * *
*
>>
>> > La mia
malinconia by Cecco
Angiolieri
>>
>> >
>>
>> > La mia malinconia
e' tanta e tale,
>>
>> > ch'e' non discredo
che, s'egli 'l sapesse
>>
>> > un che mi fosse
nemico mortale,
>>
>> > che di me di
pietade non piangesse
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Quella, per cu'
m'avven, poco ne cale;
>>
>> > che mi parebbe,
sed ella volesse
>>
>> > guarir'n un punto
di tutto tutto 'l mie male
>>
>> > sed ella pur: - I'
t'odio - mi dicesse
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Ma quest'e' la
risposta c'ho da lei;
>>
>> > e ched'i vad'a far
li fatti miei;
>>
>> > ch'ella non cura
s'i' ho gi'oi' o pene
>>
>> > men ch'una paglia
che le va tra' piei:
>>
>> > mal grado h'abbi
Amor, ch'a le' mi diene.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > * * *
* * *
* * *
*
>>
>> >
>>
>> > un saluto a tutti,
>>
>> > Rinaldo.
>>
>
>>
>hi rinaldo,
>>
>
>>
>so good to see your name on my computer screen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>
>>
>david rhaesa
>>
>salina, Kansas
>>
>
>>
cari amici,
>>
>>
the Cecco Angiolieri poem is written in very ancient italian,
>>
the time (XIII century) when i.e. the ego was "I" (note the italian
>>
"I" use in the ancient italian sentence "I' t'odio"=
"i hate you!",
>>
then the use was dismissed, now of course the italian people is
>>
less egocentric...).
>>
>>
the poem is in a bunch of poems written by Cecco Angiolieri, prolific
>>
medieval writer .
>>
>>
well, for the poem "La mia malinconia" Cecco is in sad blue feeling,
>>
his girlfriend parted from him. Cecco is hopeless...
>>
>>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
> *
*
>> My melancholy
by Cecco Angiolieri
>>
>> my melancholy is deep
>> that even a my worse
enemy
>> would have pity for
me
>>
>> but the woman
>> she doesn't care
about my melancholy
>> she doesn't tell to
me not even I hate!
>> If she tells me
"I hate you"
>> it would cure my
melancholy
>>
>> but the woman
>> she tell me go away!
>> she doesn't care
about my melancholy
>> she tramples on my
sorrow like grass
>> under her feet.
>>
>>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
> *
*
>>
>>
i think it's wonderful to post the original poem by Cecco (the
>>
poem that Lawrence Ferlinghetti mimes in ''Alla maniera di
>>
Cecco Angiolieri'')
>>
>>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
> *
*
>>
>> S'i' fosse foco by Cecco Angiolieri
>>
>> S'i' fosse foco arderei 'l
mondo;
>> s'i' fosse vento, lo
tempesterei;
>> s'i' fossi acqua i'
l'annegherei;
>>
4 s'i' fosse Dio
mandereil'en profondo;
>>
>> s'i' fosse papa, sare' allor
giocondo,
>> che' tutti cristiani
imbrigherei;
>> s'i' fosse 'mperator, sa' che
farei?
>>
8 A tutti mozzarei lo capo
a tondo.
>>
>> S'i' fosse morte anderei da
mio padre;
>> s'i' fossi vita, fuggirei da
lui:
>>
11 similmente far'ia da mi'
madre.
>>
>>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
> *
*
>>
translation of the above poem
>>
by courtesy of Federica "Kikka" Ferrieri
>>
>>
Cecco Angiolieri IF I
WERE FIRE
>>
---------------- --------------
>>
>>
IF I WERE FIRE, I WOULD BURN THE WORLD;
>>
IF I WERE WIND, IWOULD STORM IT;
>>
IF I WERE WATER, I WOULD DROWN IT;
>>
IF I WERE GOD, I WOULD SEND IT INTO DEPTH;
>>
>>
IF I WERE THE POPE, I WOULD THEN BE HAPPY,
>>
BECAUSE I WOULD TROUBLE ALL CHRISTIAN PEOPLE;
>>
IF I WERE THE EMPEROR, DO YOU KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO?
>>
I WOULD COMPLETELY DECAPITATE EVERYONE
>>
>>
IF I WERE DEATH, I WOULD GO TO MY FATHER;
>>
IF I WERE LIFE, I WOULD ESCAPE FROM HIM:
>>
IN THE SAME WAY I WOULD BEHAVE WITH MY MOTHER.
>>
>>
IF I WERE CECCO, AS I AM AND HAS BEEN,
>>
I WOULD CHOSE YOUNG AND BEAUTIFUL WOMEN:
>>
AND LEAVE THE OLD AND UGLY ONES FRO SOMEONE OTHER.
>>
>>
* * * * *
* * *
* *
> *
*
>>
>>
un caro saluto a tutti,
>>
Rinaldo e "Kikka".
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:40:05 -0700
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From: Harold Rhenisch
<rhenisch@WEB-TREK.NET>
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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I don't
think too much should be made about generational divisions.
Vonnegut
was always bitching, even before he grew old.
Harold
Rhenisch
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:18:24 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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>From
one dad to another, Hi Tim!
Kids
will be kids and grownups will be grown ups and the ones in between
have
their own problems. I agree with you Tim that parents have gone through
childhood
and that kids have not yet experienced parenthood.
What
makes nevertheless very difficult for parents to understand their
children,
is the fact that the world of the parents' childhood was changed
from
under them, some of it by their own adult activities, but also by many
other
influences that they weren't able to keep out.
All too
often parents are strangers to the very different world their kids
are
immersed in, surrounded by, and which create new ways, new anxieities,
new
mores, new social standards, etc., etc.. Pierced body parts and purple
hair
are only a couple of more extreme examples that were hard for parents
to
accept. Then parents get used to it, after they start seeing it all
around
themselves, but it is still very puzzling to them to understand why
anyone
would ever want to do those things. A generation ago it was the same
with
teenage boys letting their hair grow like girls.
It is
the changed values, mores, defining selfhood that leaves loving
parents
who were chidren themselves under a whole set of different standards
and
valuations, baffled and perplexed quite often about their chidren.
When
today's parents were growing up, they were pushing against the fences
that
their parents erected to shelter them from the dangers of the larger
world
out there. The holes they poked in those fences were scary to the
parents
who were trying to stop them. Only partially successfully in every
generation.
The new parents have erected fences around their new territory,
and are
just as scared when they see their kids knocking holes, sampling new
concepts,
in their lives. They don't understand the new music even too well.
I agree
with you that kids will continue to act as kids and grownups will
continue
to act as grownups. Every generation nevertheless finds new aspects
to
their world that the parents are not familiar with, at least somewhat
apprehensive
about, and have difficulty understanding.
I
thought Everson's interview of Dreiser is a very goo example of the
disdain
that grown ups often show for the young generation. Everson was
young,
but a dedicated brilliant person whose pacifict statement alone had
was
saying a lot more than his elders were willing to take responsibility
for.
Dreiser the great man was certainly one of the more enlightened human
beings
of those times. He had to know what the place that Everson mentioned
represented.
Still, he dismissed the young generation as wannabes who have
nothing
to say themselves. I have certainly seen that same attitude strongly
expressed
about the youth of the x generation.
I agree
further that we all continue to make the same mistakes. I am not
sure
that we are learning enough about them, about ourselves.
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, November 14, 1997 10:11 AM
Subject:
Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
>At
12:14 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>maybe
this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates
>>>exactly
why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the
>>>grungekids)
spends so much time bitching about how people don't really
>>>understand
them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to
>>>understand...
>>
>> yeah, but that's the case throughout
history; parents never
>>understand
their kids habits/culture...
>>
>>
>
>I
think it is the opposite. The parents
understand all too well having
been
>there
before.
>
>Youngsters
always think they are unique.
>
>Youngsters
also have more time and inclination to care about if they are
>"really
understood".
>
>Parents
understand all too well, understanding is not the problem.
>
>I
think a lack of trust of faith in the youngster's ability to muddle
>through
like the rest of humanity has done is more the crux of any friction
>than
a lack of understanding. This lack of
faith though is based upon the
>strong
understanding of the kids, so strong that there becomes and
>identification
and a projection and then a protectionism wherein the parent
>sees
the kid making all the same mistakes they made. Thye forget they are
>also
learning the same things they learned and having the necessary
>experiences
they has as well.
>
>So
the parents make the same mistakes their parents made and the kids make
>the
same mistakes the parents made as kids.
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:17:26 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History
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intro
to queer?
cheryl
broderick wrote:
> I
have been looking at Joan Vollmer and Bill for the background to a short
> story.
>
Once again, it seems that there are discrepancies (right word?) between
> different
>
accounts of what happened. Does anyone
know where I can get a full, and
>
hopefully correct version of that fatal day?
Joyce Johnson has them drinking
at
>
home, Miles has them in a room above a bar.
Johnson has Joan suggesting the
>
routine, Miles (and WSB) has Bill suggesting it. I know I've brought this up
> before,
>
but I'm more interested now due to it being research.
>
>
Tom. H.
>
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
>
"When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:25:46 -0500
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From: Marlene Giraud <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Subject: chancing ridicule and loving it!
Untitled
its about to rain
the sky is swollen
pregnant
as am i
with fullness
with desire
i ache for the coolness
calmness
serenity
silver slips on my window
tip-tap-tip
music
parted lips
i am desperate for rain
for solitude broken
for droplets to hang on my eyelashes
miracles in water lapping
tenderness in blue
me in a full skirt
swirling around my ankles
i twirl on my toes
dance in small puddles
rain goddess
grey poetess
mingle tingle churn
what communion is this!
this wet wine flesh
this body cold rush
dripping hair
blankets of mud
rain-stain-art
rain as birth!
rain as life!
as maternal caresses
as sunken sweetness
as reward
as renewal
I am strong!
power in the elements
currents in my skin
i offer prayers to pagan gods
scream with passion
call out to the mists
hold the wind against my breasts
i don't need lightning
white heat
mockery of the sun
i am deaf to thunder
i open to rain like virgin clouds
i allow myself to be taken
washed clean
molded
holded felt
i am sculpted
i am saved
i don't need worship or form
prayer or solididty
i need liguid goodness
drip-drop father
Holy Rain!
i
only believe in poetry......i only believe in poetry
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:25:02 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: hey, let's have a wsb reading that..
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combines
the letters w/the work? the combo i know the most about is
Interzone(ed.
by mr. grauerholz) and the letters to ginsberg 53-57.
i may
be totally whacked, but i believe that wsb was to remark that the
pieces
that became interzone and naked lunch were to found in his
letters
to AG.
let me
know if i'm wrong
(like i
need to encourage anyone, <g>
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:31:29 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
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i grew
up much more tightly bound to my generation than to my parents; i was
precocious
in the sixties (as many of you know); and for reasons relating to
family
traits. i had a genreation . i think that many of the punk attitudes
derived
from kids like me needing to shock their parents, my peers, exhippy
parents.
just a thought.
just
another spin..
mc
Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
Personally, Ive blessed with parents that do understand, whatever it is
>
there is to understand. I think most parents do, more than my peers care
> to
realize.
>
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:32:09 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
MIME-Version:
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>Hello
Joe,
>
>I
got nothing against you. I still enjoy the memories of your wonderful
>story
from your youthful adventure. For that one alone you got my respect.
>
>I
don't think you disrespect me even though I am a felonious ex-con.
>However,
your attempt to explain away (that's how it strikes me) your
>initial
statement , just doeasn't make it for me. Frankly, some of it I
>don't
quite understand. Some of it I question. You rattle off a list of
>names
of prisons and you imagine what would happen to you if you mouthed
off
>in
any of them. If you are speaking from
personal observation than what
you
>have
observed is quite different from what I have seen over the years.
>
>I
haven't been in any of those places you
mention, but I can tell you from
>experience,
not imagination, that in the maximum security facility in South
>Carolina
people mouthed off to each other all the time. Same In Atlanta, El
>Paso,
Terminal Island, Vacaville, San Quentin. Mouthing off was a very
>common
occurence in all of those, plus others that I have done time in long
>enough
to see for myself. Besides I don't see how it relates to your very
>clear
statement that I responded to. In fact I could remember a small
>fraction
of the ingenious, creative mouthing off explicatives that I heard
>constantly
in all of these human congregations, I would would have a hot
>item
for your bookshelves.
>
>I
am answering to the list because that's where the question arose. I am
>suggesting
now that if you feel that we should continue our discussion of
>it,
we can do it backchannell.
>
>BTW,
Got any other stories like that one? It would be a pleasured to read
>them
if they are anywhere close to the one you shared with us.
>
>Ciao
>leon
>
>-----Original
Message-----
>From:
jo grant <jgrant@bookzen.com>
>To:
Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
>Date:
Friday, November 14, 1997 9:52 AM
>Subject:
Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
>
>
>>>-----Original
Message-----
>>>From:
Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
>>>To:
jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
>>>Date:
Thursday, November 13, 1997 10:33 AM
>>>Subject:
Re: Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
>>>
>>>>Hi
Joe,
>>>>-----Original
Message-----
>>>>From:
jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
>>>>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>>>>Date:
Thursday, November 13, 1997 9:11 AM
>>>>Subject:
Re: my comments on Patricia's posts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Just
because a person has done a little time doesn't mean they cannot
be
>>>>>trusted.
But when an excon slanders and lies about a person whose
>>>>>reputation
is untarnished then that excon has to expect a little truth
>in
>>>>>return.
It's something SOME excons learn to live with.
>>
>>
>>Leon,
>>
>>I
did not mean for my comments to be directed at you.
>>
>>What
I said (above) is true. If you've done time you know how people deal
>>with
someone who makes false accusations and silly threats. You can
imagine
>>the
response to that kind of "mouthing off" on the yard at Walpole,
>>Raiford,
Angola, Marian, Levenworth, or any joint--other than the "country
>>clubs."
>>
>>People
who haven't done time occasionally lash out at someone who has gone
>>over
the edge, in the truth department, by using "convicted" to make a
>>point
about a person's trustworthiness. I didn't like it when Gerry did
it,
>>but
I understood why he did it. The words that provoked his response, had
>>they
been said, "on the yard" could very easily have been fatal. How many
>>times
have you seen someone's mouth overload their ass.
>>
>>One
doesn't have to do time in maximum security to learn that, but it's
one
>>of
the early lessons learned in there.
>>
>>On
the outside, ex-cons learn to live with "hurtful" comments that are
>>made--for
whatever reasons. It never really works.
I've found that out,
>>and
it appears, you have too. My complaint with Maher has nothing to do
>>with
his being found guilty of a minor crime.
>>
>>j
grant
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>.-
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:33:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: James Laughlin, Dead at 83
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1.0
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James
Laughlin, Poet and Publisher, Dead at
83
Associated
Press 14-NOV-97
NORFOLK,
Conn. (AP) James Laughlin, a poet and pioneering publisher who
introduced
American readers to some of the best-known writers of this
century,
died Wednesday of complications following a stroke. He was 83.
Laughlin
died at his home, his family said. He was still an undergraduate
at
Harvard University in 1936 when he founded New Directions with money
from
his father and issued the first of the anthologies that he said were a
place
"where experimentalists could test their inventions by publication."
His
first book, "New Directions in Prose & Poetry," included writings from
Henry
Miller, Gertrude Stein, Ezra Pound, Wallace Stevens and William
Carlos
Williams.
For
more than 50 years, his anthologies showcased writers he considered
originals,
among them Vladimir Nabokov, William Saroyan, Dylan Thomas,
Thomas
Merton, James Agee, Delmore Schwartz, Lawrence Ferlinghetti and John
Hawkes
and a host of others.
Laughlin's
company became New Directions Publishing Corp., one of the
world's
most influential book publishers.
He brought the translated works of authors
such as Jorge Luis Borges and
Garcia
Lorca to the United States, and was Nabokov's first American
publisher.
A
native of Pittsburgh, where his great-grandfather founded a family steel
business,
Laughlin was still a teen-ager when he began getting his short
stories
and poems published in small magazines.
Laughlin
wrote several books of poetry, including "In Another Country,"
Stolen
& Contaminated Poems" and "The Bird of Endless Time." At the
time of
his
death, he was writing his memoirs through a series of poems, his family
said.
He won the National Book Foundation Medal for
Distinguished Contribution
to
American Letters in 1982, and the Robert Frost medal from the Poetry
Society
of America in1989.
Survivors
include his wife, Gertrude; two sons, a daughter and six
grandchildren.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:38:38 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
i agree
except to say that there are the occasional exceptions to the rule,
thank
god. sadly, i think the real problem is
communication starting with
birth. if parents were more straight up and honest
with their children in the
first
place, both parents and children would have a hell of alot more trust
between
them and could venture more into the grey areas of being alive.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Tyson Ouellette
Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 9:14 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
>maybe
this above statement by our own insightful leon demonstrates
>exactly
why gen-x (which i count myself as a member of, being one of the
>grungekids)
spends so much time bitching about how people don't really
>understand
them....it's because the elders don't wish or bother to
>understand...
yeah, but that's the case throughout
history; parents never
understand
their kids habits/culture...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:43:01 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: chancing ridicule and loving it!
MIME-Version:
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h
marlene : this conjures up for me countless dead shows, rainy ones and
one in
which all rains down from heaven. however, i have a gender issue
:mother
rain (sumtimes mo-fo rain). whips up the memory glands.
mc
Marlene
Giraud wrote:
> Untitled
>
> its about to rain
> the sky is swollen
> pregnant
> as am i
> with fullness
> with desire
> i ache for the coolness
> calmness
> serenity
> silver slips on my window
> tip-tap-tip
> music
> parted lips
> i am desperate for rain
> for solitude broken
> for droplets to hang on my eyelashes
> miracles in water lapping
> tenderness in blue
> me in a full skirt
> swirling around my ankles
> i twirl on my toes
> dance in small puddles
> rain goddess
> grey poetess
> mingle tingle churn
> what communion is this!
> this wet wine flesh
> this body cold rush
> dripping hair
> blankets of mud
> rain-stain-art
> rain as birth!
> rain as life!
> as maternal caresses
> as sunken sweetness
> as reward
> as renewal
> I am strong!
> power in the elements
> currents in my skin
> i offer prayers to pagan gods
> scream with passion
> call out to the mists
> hold the wind against my breasts
> i don't need lightning
> white heat
> mockery of the sun
> i am deaf to thunder
> i open to rain like virgin clouds
> i allow myself to be taken
> washed clean
> molded
holded felt
> i am sculpted
> i am saved
> i don't need worship or form
> prayer or solididty
> i need liguid goodness
> drip-drop father
> Holy Rain!
> i only believe in poetry......i only
believe in poetry
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:59:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: First_Name Last_Name
<Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg Artwork - forwarded inquiry
does
anyone know of a web page where i could download the drawings made of
allen
ginsberg the day he died that were featured in tricyle magazine?
thanks,
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:59:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History
In-Reply-To: <199711141922.OAA15190@pike.sover.net>
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Despite
Patricia's many admonitions against Morgan's Literary Outlaw, I
believe
his presentation of the events surrounding Joan's death to be
about
as good as it gets when it comes to biography. You are not going to
find
anything approaching the Truth (Nothing is True, Everything is
Permitted
(Permuted)). He presents the accounts of several eyewitnesses,
people
that were there, and they all conflict with each other in various
ways,
some minor, some MAJOR. I think what you are going to find is that
you
can't find a truth, but only a sort of sordid assorted stories,
various
permutations of the same event. The only thing we know for sure is
William
pulled the trigger, and Joan died.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:23:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M .Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: The Dark Eye -WSB as character voice
Mime-Version:
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I just
picked up an interesting 3-D animated, role-playing
adventure
CD-ROM game that was inspired by the works of
Edgar
Allen Poe. It involves macbre plots,
intrigue,
horror,
etc. Pretty cool actually. I guess the point
I was
going to make, is that WSB does the voice for
one of
the main characters. Not sure if this
has
been
brought up on the list yet? But I
thought someone
might
like to look this up. Not bad for
$9.99!!
It's
called _The Dark Eye_ and was put out by Inscope
multimedia.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:54:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "IamAs I Be@aol.com"
<IamAsIBe@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat and Kerouac books for sale
please
might you be so kind to send me your beat books list?
much
thnks
k
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:04:23 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: beat courses
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At
08:36 AM 11/13/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On
Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>
>>
>From the Kerouac Cd -Rom:
>
>> And inscribed in his copy of Lolita is this:
>>
>> What decency really is, can never be
outraged- This is a great book by the
>>
world's most honest and smartest living writer. JK
>
>Ahh,
I agree almost completely (I'd call Burroughs the most honest). Funny
>though,
I always thought Lolita paled in comparison with Bend Sinister,
>Pnin,
and Pale Fire. It's just the one that produced the most controversy.
>Pnin
should be required reading for any faculty or student involved in the
>university
game. Does Nabokov appear on many American Lit syllabi? I
>haven't
seen him listed for courses in and around my school.
>
>Neil
>
>
I'm
certain he is where the literary canon is still honored. I
was
taught Lolita in 1965, is a sophomore English Lit class.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:18:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: vonnegut's answer and the x-gen
In-Reply-To: <199711141932.OAA18051@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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I cant
say that anything I do shocks my parents because I had two older
sisters
to pave the way for me. Even still, my dad is the kind of guy who
understands
that teenagers do things (ie drinking and drugs) and in my
house,
it was dont ask, dont tell. He didnt want to know anything about
our
exploits and I think part of it is because by knowing, he is
parentally
obligated to chasiste us in some way and we all know what a
waste
of time that is...
On Fri,
14 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> i
grew up much more tightly bound to my generation than to my parents; i was
>
precocious in the sixties (as many of you know); and for reasons relating to
>
family traits. i had a genreation . i think that many of the punk attitudes
>
derived from kids like me needing to shock their parents, my peers, exhippy
>
parents. just a thought.
>
just another spin..
> mc
>
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
>
> Personally, Ive blessed with parents that do understand, whatever it is
>
> there is to understand. I think most parents do, more than my peers care
>
> to realize.
>
>
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>
> Sure-JK
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:29:31 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: christmas
MIME-Version:
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a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------51D825F731AD
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my
shoice of a story is william and james coming to kansas and finding
the
western land and how it came to be written.
i have always thought
it
interesting about william coming back to the midwest.
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--------------51D825F731AD--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:22:47 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Greatest Novels ...
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
09:31 PM 11/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-11-11 17:31:07 EST, you write:
>
><<
I think Selby is incredibly under-appreciated. I think he's a master. >>
>Hubert
Selby is a monster writer and should be discussed on this list more
>often. I heartily agree with your selections,
Glenn, but I'm curious as to
>why
you left off Last Exit to Brooklyn.
Isn't it as least as good as The
>Demon
and The Room?
>
>
Did
Selby have other books besides Last Exit?
I read this one just a few
years
ago and thought there was more understanding of sexuality in all its
disguises,
in the book, than in any other I have read before or since. It
has an
understanding of homosexuality in it that I have not seen equalled
in any
other novel, since.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:23:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: great american novel
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
09:12 AM 11/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
>This
list is fascinating and growing fatter,
healthier. Wondering if
>anyone
has read and likes/hates/indifferent to E.L. Doctorow? A few
>titles:
Daniel, Ragtime, Loon Lake, Worlds Fair, Billy Bathgate, The
>Waterworks. To me, his books evince poignant, lyrical,
encyclopedic,
>historical,
American, tragic voice like no other.
>
>Preston
>
>
I hated
Ragtime because it seemed to read and drag like history. It
seemed
portentous, and I was put off by that.
I read Loon Lake after
that
and like its aping of the style of Raymond Chandler, among others.
I sort
of gave up on Doctorow, but I haven't forgotten him. He seems
a
master of other people's styles.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:23:03 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: method and meaning
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
09:11 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>
>>Plot
is not all that matters. Faulkner told the whole plot of the novel,
>Absalom,
Absalom by the end of the first chapter. What he did was fashion
>each
chapter after the first by restating the various "truths" of each
>character
about what happened with Sutpen. Shreve wants to know from Quentin
>Compson
what the 'South" was like...each character has a different take on
>this
but it is the structuring of the novel that makes it what it is and not
>the
plot. Plot is a vehicle for expression, not necessarily linear or
>non-linear
so much as it gives the writer a place to hang his hat.
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
>
>
I read
Absalom, Absalom and don't recall the entire plot being
show in
the first chapter. I read the first 100
pages twice.
It was
a terrible book to read, with everyone rehashing the
same
stuff over and over, and then adding one more fact to the
accumulated
plot.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:22:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: star wars and Kerouac?
Mime-Version:
1.0
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This is
an interesting thread. I saw the
Campbell
TV
shows, but only liked the first two, the ones where
Campbell
identifies the universal meanings of many
symbols. Only on rerelease did I learn about Lucas
writing
the Campbell symbols into Star Wars. I
have
never
heard anywhere else that he hired Campbell as
an
advisor on the movie. I certainly agree the Moyer's
films
on Campbell were more interesting to me than
Star
Wars.
A
friend of mine has a load of Campbell lectures on
audiotape
which he keeps promising to lend me.
Then
he
doesn't come through. He told me the
Campbell
lectures
are better than the Campbell books. I have
read
none of the Campbell books. Does
someone else
have
another opionion?
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:22:36 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Tougue in Cheek
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At
01:34 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Just
thought I'd let you all know that I got my tounge pierced this
>afternoon.
>
Its very
sad. Do you think you can get the
procedure reversed?
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:25:26 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Joan Volllmer(-Adams) Burroughs
also
try "Women of the Beat Generation" by Brenda Knight. Joan's dates are
1924 -
1951. i haven't read the section yet,
but it should prove helpful.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
cheryl broderick
Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 2:46 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Joan Volllmer(-Adams) Burroughs
While
I'm on the subject, does anyone know of anything by Joan, letters,
stories,
poems? I think there's an archive somewhere, but
it'll be in the states,
which'll
make it
difficult for me to get at, if I was even going to take it that far.
When was
she
born? (Well, really, how old was she when she died?) Are there are other
accounts
of Joan apart from WSB biographies and Minor Characters? I suppose
there
might be something in Off The Road... better go check that one.
Cheers,
Tom. H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
"When
the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:26:15 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tom Finds Problems in Beat History
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SOL.3.95q.971114145038.5696F-100000@picard.math.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-version:
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On Fri,
14 Nov 1997, Neil Hennessy wrote:
>
Despite Patricia's many admonitions against Morgan's Literary Outlaw, I
I, like
many others, have greatly enjoyed Patricia's stories of WSB, but
was
also surprised to hear her say that Morgan's book was unreliable in
certain
respects. I had thought it was pretty good--but then, I didn't
know
WSB personally. So Patricia, if you're willing, I would love to have
some
more specifics as to what exactly, Morgan got wrong?
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:07:12 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: CCI
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CCI
(For
Leon and Joe, by an outsider)
Central
Correctional Institute.
A
granite fortress,
Mined
on the Saluda River
By the
inmates.
That
was before THE war.
Death
house.
Pee Wee
Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner
And
they made a tv movie of it.
Outside
were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.
And row
after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back
Until
it reinvented itself.
Machine
guns in the turrets.
Right
on the Columbia canal.
In this
cell block the ghosts howl,
And you
do not have to strain to hear them.
Now, it
is almost gone. All but the granite.
First
they made a park on the old canal.
Then
Bell South built a building to house
Busy
executives of this modern society.
So,
they moved the prison, tore it down,
Will
soon build condominiums.
Haunted
by the rastafarian dreams,
by the
death row marches,
by the
electrocution of a teen age boy,
by
Tyner turning on his radio,
by
three time users doing 25 with no parole.
It has
been the home of noble spirits too,
But,
alas, they do not haunt,
Or if
they do, are drowned by banshee.
CCI,
Central
Correctional Institute,
Maximum
Security,
Not
much correction.
Turn
your head like you can forget.
In the
night, they shall hear the voices.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:13:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Hey Sherri
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What
was that song Sherri, the one I liked when I was the Child. It
doesn't
seem to work as good these days.
Teach
your children well
The
parent's hell
Can
slowly go by,
Don't
you ever ask them why,
If they
told you you would sigh,
Just
look at them and smile,
And
know they love you.
An
interesting point you make in your post about the generation
thingy. Last night's ER was all about that distance
and what creates
it. It was very well done for tv. In one scene the sexy guy's
character
(Clooney) said to the dork guy, Mark?, that his father being
there
every night, even when he said nothing, was an act of love. It
caused
me to rethink some of my observations.
As children,
it is hard for us to know what our parents have been
through
and what decisions and experinces got them to be who they
were. As parents, it is hard for me to get my
children to see what
the
difference is. I think honesty is the
best we can do.
Take
care,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:13:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: star wars and Kerouac?
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Mike
Rice wrote:
>
>
This is an interesting thread. I saw
the Campbell
> TV
shows, but only liked the first two, the ones where
>
Campbell identifies the universal meanings of many
>
symbols. Only on rerelease did I learn
about Lucas
>
writing the Campbell symbols into Star Wars.
I have
>
never heard anywhere else that he hired Campbell as
> an
advisor on the movie. I certainly agree the Moyer's
>
films on Campbell were more interesting to me than
>
Star Wars.
>
> A
friend of mine has a load of Campbell lectures on
>
audiotape which he keeps promising to lend me.
Then
> he
doesn't come through. He told me the
Campbell
>
lectures are better than the Campbell books. I have
>
read none of the Campbell books. Does someone
else
>
have another opionion?
>
>
Mike Rice
The
lectures are better -- but get the videos he's more human that way.
(even
has to check his watch to see how he's doing on time). I believe
it's
called Transformations of Myth Through Time.
my
local library had it.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:41:47 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Greatest Novels ...
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Mike
Rice wrote:
>
Did Selby have other books besides Last Exit?
I read this one just a few
>
years ago and thought there was more understanding of sexuality in all
its
>
disguises, in the book, than in any other I have read before or since.
It
>
has an understanding of homosexuality in it that I have not seen equaled
> in
any other novel, since.
This
summer I picked up a Quality Paperback Book Club three-for-one edition
of
Selby's "Last Exit...," "The Room," and "Requiem For A
Dream." Up until
I got
this book, I had only been aware of "Last Exit" as well. What a
powerful
writer indeed. Selby writes in his
introduction that he is
concerned
with what happens when people lose control over themselves and/or
their
situation...when that happens, he paints horrifying, grim portraits
of life
being sucked down an irresistible vortex.
Not light reading for a
sunny
summer's day, by any means, but meaty, gutsy, honest stuff.
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:04:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg
<Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject:
Re: Special! Selected L...
Paul
from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected Letters
hardcover
for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ
This is
a great deal...
But
before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the book
available
for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our copies
are
signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....
Thanks
-
Jeffrey
Water
Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:47:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: poetry places (fwd)
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Hey guys,
A
friend asked me to pass along the following website for poets...
<A
HREF="http://www.gis.net/~levesque2/contactinformation.html">Poetry
Inform
ation</A>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:24:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Special! Selected L...
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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At
08:04 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Paul
from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected Letters
>hardcover
for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ
>This
is a great deal...
>But
before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the book
>available
for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our copies
>are
signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....
>Thanks
-
>Jeffrey
>Water
Row Books
>
We will
not be undersold! Selected Letters Volume I (Hardcover 1st Edition
Barnd
New! and The Kerouac Quarterly No. 2 for $10.00 plus $2.00 P/H.
Thanks!
Paul of TKQ. . .
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:58:06 -0500
Reply-To: tb2867a@american.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Bryer
<tb2867a@AMERICAN.EDU>
Organization:
American University
Subject: Beats as source for 60s counterculture
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Does
anybody know of any titles (literature or otherwise) looking at the
Beats
of the 50s as a source and influence on the countercultural
ideology
of the sixties?
Thanks,
Tom
--
Next
Meeting for Third Party League:
Nov. 20th at 8 PM
Hear
different political perspectives!
This
week will feature the voice of DSA.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:22:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Special! Selected L...
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Paul A.
Maher Jr. wrote:
>
> At
08:04 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Paul from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected
Letters
>
>hardcover for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ
>
>This is a great deal...
>
>But before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the book
>
>available for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our
copies
>
>are signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....
>
>Thanks -
>
>Jeffrey
>
>Water Row Books
>
>
> We
will not be undersold! Selected Letters Volume I (Hardcover 1st Edition
>
Barnd New! and The Kerouac Quarterly No. 2 for $10.00 plus $2.00 P/H.
>
Thanks! Paul of TKQ. . .
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
i love
this list!!!!!
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:33:32 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Special! Selected L...
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Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>
>
>
> At 08:04 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Paul from Kerouac Quarterly has offered copies of Kerouac's Selected
Letters
>
> >hardcover for $15.00 - with free copy of the KQ
>
> >This is a great deal...
>
> >But before you buy it, please note that we also have copies of the
book
>
> >available for the same price (orig published price was $29.95) but our
copies
>
> >are signed by Ann Charters.....at no additional charge....
>
> >Thanks -
>
> >Jeffrey
>
> >Water Row Books
>
> >
>
> We will not be undersold! Selected Letters Volume I (Hardcover 1st Edition
>
> Barnd New! and The Kerouac Quarterly No. 2 for $10.00 plus $2.00 P/H.
>
> Thanks! Paul of TKQ. . .
>
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
> Henry David Thoreau
> i
love this list!!!!!
> p
whadamybidforIgottenbucksdoIhear
9 bucks anyone give 9 bucs?????
auctioneer
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:05:27 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: free enterprise
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Free
enterprise is a beautiful thing. Ain't
it.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:26:21 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: correction/not users, losers
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CCI
(For
Leon and Joe, by an outsider)
Central
Correctional Institute.
A
granite fortress,
Mined
on the Saluda River
By the
inmates.
That
was before THE war.
Death
house.
Pee Wee
Gaskins blew up Rudolph Tyner
And
they made a tv movie of it.
Outside
were baseball fields, basketball courts, and weights.
And row
after row of barbed razor wire helix curving back
Until
it reinvented itself.
Machine
guns in the turrets.
Right
on the Columbia canal.
In this
cell block the ghosts howl,
And you
do not have to strain to hear them.
Now, it
is almost gone. All but the granite.
First
they made a park on the old canal.
Then
Bell South built a building to house
Busy
executives of this modern society.
So,
they moved the prison, tore it down,
Will
soon build condominiums.
Haunted
by the rastafarian dreams,
by the
death row marches,
by the
electrocution of a teen age boy,
by
Tyner turning on his radio,
by
three time losers doing 25 with no parole.
It has
been the home of noble spirits too,
But,
alas, they do not haunt,
Or if
they do, are drowned by banshee.
CCI,
Central
Correctional Institute,
Maximum
Security,
Not
much correction.
Turn
your head like you can forget.
In the
night, they shall hear the voices.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw