=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:58:26 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac in advertisement
In-Reply-To:
<msg1251041.thr-3ff78936.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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>>Permission
to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the
>>executor
of the Keroauc Estate.
I could
be wrong. Was reminded of the CA laws about rights to use images
that
Nicosia posted some time ago. Sampas could have been by-passed by Jan
Kerouac.
Interesting
how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his
daughter
Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.
j grant
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:53:45 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: when god twirled the world into
existence...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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Sara
Straw says:
>Assuming
guilt from the past is a christian theme, and I am an atheist.
>sara
>
"The
ways of the Lord lead to liberty" sayeth St. Paul...
yet a man need liberty, not God, to be
able to
follow the ways of God" ---
Gregory Corso
from
''ELEGIAC FEELINGS AMERICAN
for the memory of John Kerouac''
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:43:13 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki
Literature
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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At
22.16 19/11/97 -0500, Alex Howard wrote:
>Progressive
does not necessarily denote progress.
And as we all know,
>progress
does not necessarily mean good. The
guilt and responsibilty of
>the
deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is on the head of every American.
>The
guilt and responsibility of everything that has occured out of those
>terrible
points belongs with every citizen of a country that calls itself
>any
sort of leader or player in the global cultural landscape. They
>cannot
be forgotten. Just as anyone who
ignores suffering and injustice
>because
it happens somewhere else in the world carries with them a
>responsibility for and to the victims of the Holocaust.
>
>------------------
>Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
Alex,
i think
people in XX century goes crazy in a lot of countries,
first
of all in italy, the place where fascism raise the flag
and
making the atomic bomb was a lot of europeans.
Gregory
Corso thinking
"You
Bomb Toy of universe... I cannot hate you... all
man
hates you they'd rather die by car-crash".
Gregory
Corso is a pacifist and he wrote the poem "Bomb"
after
the Trafalgar Square Meeting (London 1958).
The
poet was impressed by the people
blinded with hatred
against
the Bomb, he wrote the poem in Paris.
Allen
Ginsberg cutted out the typewritten poem and
sticked
them shaping as a mushroom cloud.
un caro
saluto da
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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>>>How
can an atheist be spiritual? I
understand how spirit and the
>>>supreme
being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual
>>>do. Being spiritual implies the exisitence of
spirit which is not in line
>>>with
atheism.
>>
>> because all atheism states is the absence
of a belief in a
>>godhead,
period. now, atheism is as much a trap
as any other ism but i
>>won't
get into that.
>
>No.
It would also disclude polytheism as well.
>
>You
are saying an animist can be atheist. I
don't agree at all in that one
>cannot
differentiate irrational beliefs in spirits or Gods. All these
>beliefs
fall under an atheistic umbrella that holds the physical world is
>all
there is.
um, no. you're misreading what was said.
"godhead" is a term
referring
to divinity. that can include multiple
gods.
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: WSB
Mime-Version:
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"I
am not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked
by all the people around them. I don't care
if people hate my guts, I assume
most of them do. The important question is:
'What are they in a position to
do about it?'" -- William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:47:32 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac in advertisement
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Interesting
how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his
>daughter
Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.
>
>j
grant
>.-
Congratulations
Joe! I really appreciate to hear this coming from you! It
helps
us all to be more skeptical of the
conclusions advocated with
vehemence
by opponnents in a heated controversy.
You
didn't have to tell us that. But you did. That's helping us to sort
things
out about the Estate issues as well. Thanks
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:01:48 -0500
Reply-To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mongo BearWolf
<mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>
Organization:
Dartmouth College
Subject: Student wishing help with research
project
Comments:
cc: "Sahra A. Carey" <s23blue@lightspeed.net>
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Hi
Folks...
I'm
forwarding this note from a correspondent.
Please reply directly to
Sahra
(s23blue@lightspeed.net), not to me!
{:{)}
Thanks!
--Mongo
--------------------------------------------------------
...visit...
ALLEN GINSBERG:
Shadow Changes into Bone
The Clearinghouse for all things
Ginsberg!
http://www.ginzy.com
--------------------------------------------------------
-----
FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS ------------
>
Hey! I am a student doing a major
research
>
project on the beats in San Francisco as
>
part of the national history day competition.
>
Ok, I am a little bit of a procrastinator
>
and I need eight interviews from people about
>
this subject. I have four completed,
>
some secondary sources and some primary
>
sources of information. I could really
use
>
some help. I don't exactly know who you
>
are at this moment because I just got to
>
your site but I would appreciate it if you
>
have any e-mail addresses of people I could
>
interview for this over the net or perhaps
>
you could answer some questions through
>
your expert knowledge. I only have a
few:
>
>
1)What was the primary appeal of SF for
>
many beat writers and artists?
>
>
2)What atmosphere was created there due
> to
the influx of the beat culture?
>
>
3)What, if any, major ideas came out of
>
the large beat community in relation to their
>
impact on today's society.
>
>
4)From an economic stadnpoint, what
>
situation were the new "migrants" in
>
financially and what changes occured
>
within the city during the time.
>
> I
understand if you can't answer these
>
questions but any sort of blabbering will help
> me
and I need a few more interviews even
>
though the ones I already go are really
>
strong. Maybe you could pass this along
to
>
others as well and have them contact me:
>
>
s23blue@lightspeed.net
>
>
Sahra Carey
>
Bakersfield, CA
>
>
Thanks for any of your help!
>
>
-sahra
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:10:37 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: when god twirled the world into
existence...
MIME-Version:
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Was
your point that there is no point?
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:12:31 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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Thank
you, Ken.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:13:57 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: WSB
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Ken,
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, truth feels good, like a hot tub.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:19:22 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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You
have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
I use
the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
primary
source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:25:01 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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Voilla!
Its the
cover not the book, it's what you look like, not what you are,
it's
personality, not character.
Was it
ever any different?
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:42:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Kerouac's Reading
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While doing my research, I ran across this
notebook entry of Kerouac's from
September
1951. This explains more of how Kerouac viewed himself as a writer.
He
writes: "I'm going to be a Wolfean Proust, a Whitmanesque Dostoevsky, a
Melvillean
Celine, a Faulknerian Genet - in fact a Kerouassadian Ginsbergian
Shakespeare."
An irony is, that Ginsberg influenced
Kerouac in his writing while
Ginsberg
himself, at a round-table discussion at the Old Worthen in Lowell,
MA. on
October 3rd, 1992, explained that he was very much an imitator of
Kerouac.
On
another vein, but the same thread:
A precise notation of Kerouac about Twain's
story, "Mysterious Stranger"
can in
fact be connected to his sketches for Doctor Sax. He quotes in his
notebook,
"Life is a dream...you are but a vagrant thought wandering
forlornly
in shoreless eternities." A careful reading of Twain's story can
draw many
parallels to Kerouac and his ideas for Doctor Sax. This
observation
from February 1950 leads Kerouac to write, "Man haunts the
earth.
Man is on a ledge noising his life." The idea that we are amidst
eternity,
that it lives on within and without us parallels Mysterious
Stranger
with K's ideas for early plans of On the Road and Doctor Sax.
That's all for now! Don't forget to buy the
first volume of Selected
Letters
in hardcover from us!$10.00! They are brand new and will also come
with a
free copy of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2.
See The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page!
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:50:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac GAP ad
MIME-Version:
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If
anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at
http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif. This
is what
happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually
change
the name of the file afterwards.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:57:12 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac GAP ad
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Alex
Howard wrote:
>
> If
anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at
>
http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif. This
> is
what happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually
>
change the name of the file afterwards.
>
>
------------------
>
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>
kh14586@am.appstate.edu
P.O. Box 12149
>
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586
Boone, NC 28608
Thanks
Alex. It was one of those ads where i
would never have
remembered
who was doing the advertising. That
happens to me all the
time. I thought the image of Jack was pretty
good. Are there images of
the
other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?
After
seeing this ad i can see how it could pull people into wondering
about
Kerouac more than wandering into some store in some mall somewhere
in
someplace sometime. But what do i know
about such important things
as Gap
Ads and everything Jack stood for anyway -- afterall my
subconscious
is still hungup on Nagasaki!!!! <still laughing at my
incompetent
typing last night>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:38:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac GAP ad
In-Reply-To: <3474CE58.5C3D@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
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>
time. I thought the image of Jack was
pretty good. Are there images of
>
the other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?
That's
the only one I've seen though I can't remember where I got it. If
The GAP
has a site, they probably have them all unless they've been sued
by
now. Think its interesting that's the
same picture as on the cover of
Joyce
Johnson's _Minor Characters_. Except in
this one she's been
airbrushed
out. At the big Beat Conference in NY a
few years ago, she
said
that that was pretty metaphorical of the place of women in the group:
there
when necessary, airbrushed out when not.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:03:51 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady
ad.......formerly re:kerouac
ads
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>
Hey
guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
could
somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
the
theme music, led zep, would be perfect!
cathy
>
Subject:
> Re: Kerouac ads
> Date:
> Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:56 -0800
> From:
> "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
>
>
>
>At 03:19 AM 11/20/97 UT, you wrote:
>
>>----------
>
>>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Eric Lytle
>
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 19,
1997 12:00 PM
>
>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>>Subject: Re: Kerouac ads
>
>>
>
>
>
>>I feel that you bring up a very good point. But, I think the line in the
song
>
>>was kind of a tribute. Whereas
the feeling I get from the GAP ad is
>
>>different. Their intent was not
to make an artistic statement, or celebrate
>
>>Kerouac's life and work. It was
a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain
>
>>segments of the public into buying their clothes. Their motivation was
purely
>
>>and simply money. They don't
care that this contradicts everything Jack
>
>>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't
know,
>
>>maybe it will generate interest.
In fact it probably will. But
interest in
>
>>what? Kerouac's art, or his
status as "Beat King."
>
>>Sorry . . .I'm venting.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>So here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video
>
>men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:
>
>
>
>Both Kerouac and Neal Cassady, clad
in khakis for the Gap are
>
>boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa
>
>1951. Sal and Dean are pushing the
car down a slight incline.
>
>Dean dives in the driver's side to
hot wire it,
>
>Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot. The motor
>
>coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they
>
>roar away. In the fading dual
exhaust smoke, an announcer
>
>purrs: "The Gap..., the
difference between what's really
>
>true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"
>
>
>
>(Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)
>
>
>
>Mike Rice
>
>
Re-read On the Road and Sal's feelings about Dean's Car stealing when they
>
were together and you might re-evaluate who is trying to "put one over
over
>
time"
>
>
>
Personally I couldn't care less about the gap or these gap ads. Who cares.
> We
don't own Jack kerouac anyhow so what is it to us.
>
> I
think the ads were nice because it was a good picture. If someone wanted
> a
picture of kerouac they could have trimmed off the Gap part.
>
> I
also think kerouac would have done ads if he were alive. Burroughs did
>
shoe ads. Ginsberg did the Khaki ads
and he was alive.
>
>
Nothing wrong with pants.
>
>
And Mike, I must add, nice mise en scene.
Led Zeppellin's when the levy
>
breaks should be the background muzak for this commercial. It will be for
> a
Mercedes Benz. Kerouac and cassady had
such great taste that they wanted
> to
steal a Mercedres.
>
>
gesundheit.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:44:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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saras@sisna.com,.Internet
writes:
>You
have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
>I
use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
>primary
source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
thank you! i didn't want to say it for
fear of a stupid discussion
about
semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of
language,
otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about. it
doesn't
matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism
is
specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view
is that
has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:04:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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Tyson
Ouellette wrote:
>
>
saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:
>
>You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
>
>I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
>
>primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
>
> thank you! i didn't want to say it for
fear of a stupid discussion
>
about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of
>
language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about. it
>
doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism
> is
specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view
> is
that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.
thank
god someone has said this, the atheism i believe in is a good kind
spiritual
atheism.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:07:08 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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7bit
thankyou
for your thankyou.
My big
ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,
communication
is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...
People
who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,
and I
am neither.
I USED
to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and
found
out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.
Oh
well.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:14:42 -0600
Reply-To: vorys@concentric.net
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From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
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Does
anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched? The Neon
appears
to imply GAP rather than BAR. In which case the idea of Kerouac
hanging
out at a clothing store becomes ridiculous.IMHO
Overall if the ad gets someone to read
Kerouac who ordinarily
wouldn't,
I fail to see the harm. For those who are offended ... don't
but the
product.
I vaguely remember Kerouac writing something
about Arrow shirts. Am I
off on
this or does someone else know of the source?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:41:58 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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Sara
Straw wrote:
>
>
thankyou for your thankyou.
> My
big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,
>
communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...
>
People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,
>
and I am neither.
> I
USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and
>
found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.
> Oh
well.
> s
I
collect dictionaries -- but i've been known to make up my own
definitions
and even make up new words for fun and symbolic frolicking.
A fine
line and balance of not letting my dictionaries own my language
and yet
not flashing so far from the denotation (a real lie of a word)
that
communicating is impossible.
Just
bought every Xmas tape in town (almost) festivity will be burned
into my
walls whether i or my walls like it or not.
Right now James
Brown's
Xmas music. HEY AMERICA ITS Xmastime!
Ooops. Gotta do that Turkey thing first. Thanksgiving Prayer by WSB on
"Dead
City Radio" is all that is really necessary for that holiday.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:38:21 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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>It's
a big world, bud, with lots of assholes in it.
Those on death row,
>and
those on Madison Avenue, and those living down the street. Be
>idealistic,
but don't expect the world to come along... as long as there
>are
assholes in the world, they are gonna screw it up. Not only that,
>shit
happens regardless of assholes.
Complaining about government has
>only
one logical conclusion... get in there and run for office!
>SHOW
us what you are talking about!
mmm.. i cringe at being called idealistic
cause i like to think
i've
left it behind.. it's not so much idealism i don;t think, as some
basic
instinctual value placed on life.
regardless of morals, ethics,
or
other societorial imposed norms. i
could never run for office
though,
ack, politics bores me to no end.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:13:04 -0500
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From: Gary Grismore <ggrismor@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
In-Reply-To:
<msg1259755.thr-68b654d4.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Thu,
20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>my
problem isn't with the fact that it's being presented, but the
>manner
in which it is done and accepted; the fact that she was grinning
>at
the deliberate cessation of life. makes
me wonder what's happening
>in
our heads, is compassion dead?
Compassion
is as alive as it's ever been, though that's not saying much.
Public
executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of
years:
*The last public guillotining (sp?) in
France occurred on
June
17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as
well as
a group of higher-class clientelle who had rented every possible
window/balcony/vantage
point at premium prices. The crowd
cheered at 4:50
am when
the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover
of
almost every French newspaper.
*The last public execution in the USA
reportedly occurred in Owensboro, KY
in
1936. This was witnessed by a crowd of
20,000, many of whom had
attended
all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am
hanging. A cheer was raised at the falling of the
bolt, and soon the
still-warm
body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and
tearing
at clothing, flesh, and hair. Two
doctors were finally able to
make an
examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting a
groan
throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally
declared
at 5:45.
What's
my point - Hell, I don't know. I guess
only that we are going in
the
right direction. We are not there yet, and some dizzy bimbo on TV
feeding
us murder with a smile, is a disturbing reminder of that, but
closing
our eyes to the past and the progress that has been made is not
going
to help. What is? Again, I don't know.
Here are some ideas: Join
amnesty
international, vote Libertarian, write a letter to the editor...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:50:30 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: is this still beat-l?
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first,
i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
any
discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
consideration
the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
and i
have a bit of an empty head right now,
but
(armorplated glass house)
i keep
feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
or
philosophy 101
does
anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
winner
gets sound of one hand clapping.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:54:34 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady
ad.......formerly
re:kerouac ads
Comments:
To: cawilkie@comic.net
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>Hey
guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
>could
somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
>the
theme music, led zep, would be perfect!
LED ZEPPELIN!! alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,
Robert
Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:55:48 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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>i
keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
>or
philosophy 101
>does
anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
>winner
gets sound of one hand clapping.
i empathize with you, but it's all
relative... one way or another.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500
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From: Dave Redfern
<mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Atheism -- Agnostic
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I once,
paradoxically, put my faith in atheism.
This was intertwined with a
view
that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose
was to
explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that
religion
gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the
question
one step.
As the
years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a
feeling
of being attached to something bigger grew.
My first definable
spiritual
experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but
cross-country
skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the
Laurentians. I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below
wilderness, high
on
exertion. The crisp sun peering through
the leafless maples, dancing on
the
fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees
creaking
and my own panting. And then, it
shifted. I was no longer a lone
skier
in nature but a small part of nature. I
felt connected, not only to
the
natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my
descendants
to come, to everything and everyone. I
was a part of this big
rolling
ball of life and it felt good. There
was no past, no future, there
was
only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to
be. In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or
Gods, but simply being. I
slid
out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and
forever
changed.
This
short glimpse made me put away my proudly worn label of atheism. I
still
see no need for a supreme power, or for the fatalistic answers
he/she/it
may give. I am not the center or end
point but a mere speck in
the continuum. I like the term agnostic -- self defined as
a disbelief in
organized
religion but a consciousness of something bigger. Being spiritual
is
being connected, the touchstone of acceptance & contentment. It is not me
vs you
or man vs nature, for on a higher level, we are all one.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:42:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: A little too much of the Dharma
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'A
wellknown truth in every private heart
in this
long night of life:
A big
defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,
A small
one, there's no wiping it.
This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet'
(p.220)
It
seems Jack had a bit too much time on his hands in early '55...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:08:38 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
yeah -
let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
thread
in ages.... *yawn*
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Marie Countryman
Sent: Friday, November 21, 1997 4:50 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: is this still beat-l?
first,
i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
any
discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
consideration
the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
and i
have a bit of an empty head right now,
but
(armorplated glass house)
i keep
feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
or philosophy
101
does
anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
winner
gets sound of one hand clapping.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:16:47 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Maggie Gerrity
<u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: beats and atheism
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I don't think it's possible to say that the
Beats really promoted
atheism
or caused atheism in anyone. Rather, they took what they liked
of
other religions and mixed them all together. Beat Literature was
religion
to a lot of people, part Buddhism, part jazz, part LSD. The
Beats
both celebrated and closely examined life. Ginsberg, Kerouac,
Burroughs
and all the others each had their own personal problems, but
when
they wrote, they were unified. That is a very beautiful thing
that cannot
be regarded as anything less than spiritual.
Maggie G.
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by
Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:03:57 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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to remain in the semantic vein, i've
always understood agnostic to
simply
mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
particular
religion.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:06:56 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Rbt. Johnson etching
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971118091419.24600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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Derek,
Check
sent to pay for print was returned because of Postal strike in
Canado.
E-mail me when the strike is over.
j grant
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:12:11 -0500
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From: Judith Campbell
<judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Big Sur
In-Reply-To:
<UPMAIL14.199711211909340216@classic.msn.com>
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At
07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>yeah
- let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>thread
in ages.... *yawn*
I
reread Big Sur while on my California
pilgrimage in September. I also
drove
down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
around
for a while. I stood on the rocks and
read "Sea" - listening to
the
waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life
ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking
read for me - he's so raw and broken.
If he had beaten the
alcohol
and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
....shush.....Shirk....Boom
plop...
No
human words bespeak
the
token sorrow older
than
old this wave....
Excerpt from "Sea"
JK - Big Sur
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:34:32 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Gee, I
wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
You're
RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
topic
should initiate it.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:37:52 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
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From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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That's REAL
nice, but I think you need to use your dictionary to
undersand
the actual MEANING of belief and faith.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
In-Reply-To: <msg1267209.thr-2a817531.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Fri,
21 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> to remain in the semantic vein, i've
always understood agnostic to
>
simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
>
particular religion.
"Agnostic"
means that you believe it's not possible to *know* whether or
not God
exists--and since it is not possible to know this, you must keep
open
the *possibility* that He does, as well as the *possibility* that He
does
not.
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:06:06 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur/vanity of duluoz
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i'll be
following you shortly, judith, will be on the west coast next month.
(taking
big sur out of bookcase as i type. additionally , i'd be interested in
reading/discussing
vanity of duluoz: first time reading many years ago, too
young,
i believe myself to have been to read through the rawness to the core.
i've
attended beat seminars in which most hotly debated work has been the
duluoz,
would be very interestd in having a reading and discussio of this
work.
thanks
for giving my brain a jolt of energetic thought.
mc
Judith
Campbell wrote:
> At
07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>
>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>
>thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
> I
reread Big Sur while on my California
pilgrimage in September. I also
>
drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
>
around for a while. I stood on the
rocks and read "Sea" -
listening to
>
the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's
life ended, Big Sur is always a
>
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
>
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
>
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a
suicide note.
>
>
....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
> No
human words bespeak
>
the token sorrow older
>
than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
>
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:24:21 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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Judith
Campbell wrote:
>
> At
07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>
>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>
>thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
> I
reread Big Sur while on my California
pilgrimage in September. I also
>
drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
>
around for a while. I stood on the
rocks and read "Sea" -
listening to
>
the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's
life ended, Big Sur is always a
>
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
>
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
>
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a
suicide note.
>
>
....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
> No
human words bespeak
>
the token sorrow older
>
than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
>
Judith
I'm up
for something different. Big Sur was on
my Xmas want list but i
may buy
it in Denver at Tattered Cover and send Santa a revised list.
(I
haven't been a particularly good boy anyway).
I found
the idea of a novel length suicide note a very intriguing way of
looking
at Big Sur -- at least figuratively if not literally. This
impression
seems to go a step further than what i've heard from others
concerning
the novel -- and perhaps it is a step worth looking at
closely
in reading Big Sur.
to kill
some time this afternoon i did a bit of searching about Big
Sur. Here is something of what I found......
Just
for some background, I did a metacrawler search
<http://www.metacrawler.com/index.html>
of Kerouac "Big Sur" and found
some
information which some may find useful.
I'm fairly certain that
others
will have many more sites to augment this list.
As one
might expect, Levi Asher has a nice commentary on the novel "Big
Sur"
at: <http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Books/BigSurBook.html> as well
as a
nice page on Beat Places discussing Big Sur at:
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Places/BigSurPlace.html>
Also,
in the Kerouac section of the John Cassady interview, JC talks
briefly
about Kerouac at LF's cabin.
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCI-Two.html>
In
addition, various pages pop up with more than a passing reference as
in the
following: <http://www.kerouac.com/kerouac/bigsur.html> --
Amazon.com
includes links to write reviews of the book to be
incorporated
into their site
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0140168125/gloriagbrameA/0070-7114361-
694721>
like i
said, this is nowhere near a compleat list.
just some tidbits i
found
trying to weed out the most passing references in general JK pages
on my search.
i
imagine others will have access to reviews and other places to dig.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:31:16 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady
ad.......formerly
re:kerouac ads
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>>Hey
guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
>>could
somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
>>the
theme music, led zep, would be perfect!
>
> LED ZEPPELIN!! alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,
>Robert
Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...
I gotta
say you folks got taste. Spent last
night jammin' on Led Zep tunes
with
new buddies. Our singer had his
eye-lights put out in Vietnam, is a
counselor
and writes books about how to have healthy relationships, and he
sounds
like Robert Plant. And Now Zeppelin on the list. Too much damn fun!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:42:22 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: opening chapter of duluoz
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All
right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after
I've
given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make
good in
America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I
also
know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll
understand
that my particular form of anguish came from being too
sensitive
to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to
be a
high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and
washing
dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in
three
days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very
'success,'
far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of
doom
Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use
regular
punctuation for the new illiterate generation).
Look,
furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
people
have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
sake,
or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years
to such
an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or
recognize
myself as a real member of something called the human race. I
can
remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,
used to
go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing
no one
themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or
girlfriend.
Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people
have?
Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?
Has the
automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a
bunch
of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?
_______
a few
comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
generation's
travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
freedom.
also:
despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
not
appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
in the
sentence
"And
walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
_____
my hats
in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this
territory?
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:46:52 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: netiquette
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i would
like furthermore to comment on the vast number of one sentence
zingers
and arguments that refer to unknown posts, other then those
partaking
in the argument, fill and clutter mail box, and because there
is a
limit of number of posts per day (is that still right, bill?)
clutter
mailboxes. really, please take it off list.
thankyou
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:55:01 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: big sur/research
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dave:
wonderful list of resources. i'm going to be out of computer range
for a
day or two, but will be hightailing it into the web as soon as i'm
back
(while gone, i hope to finish reading duluoz and have that as an
overview.
i had always thought of duluoz as the novel as a suicide note
of
jack's spirit, it looks to be an interesting project.
thanks.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:27:16 -0500
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: New Kerouac Bio
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The
Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated again today! Always more
news on
Jack...
For those who haven't yet gotten Vol. I, No.
2, they are selling out
quick.
E-mail me first for availability. It looks like Vol. II, No. 1 will
be
available after the first of the next year. Lots of good stuff once more.
Still
some copies of Selected Letters Volume I left, all hardcover firsts
fresh
out of the box from Viking, plus a free complimentary copy of The
Kerouac
Quarterly!
Also,
news on a new bio coming out in June...go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks
folks!
Paul of TKQ!!
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:07:09 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
re: suggesting new topics, sara, i guess you are new here, as i have
>
offered up many a topic in the past to get the list moving back on
>
topic,
>
which is the reading and discussion of the writings of the beats.
> just giving other folk time to reflect over
the past month and choose
>
>
something to read. judith has offered up a novel and so have i. read
>
either of them? interested in reading them for what is in the text and
>
>
discussing them? and i'm sure there are
many list-servs which have
>
what
>
you are looking for philosophy-wise, or do what many members of this
>
list
> do
when topic strays into special interest
off topics: cc: one
>
another
>
and discuss. this has been done often, most recently the folks who
>
read
>
Ulysseus did so off list, making both them and others happy. i for one
>
>
would like you to stay here and read with us.
> mc
>
>
Sara Straw wrote:
>
>
> Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
>
> You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a
>
new
>
> topic should initiate it.
>
> s.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:20:17 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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At 03:12
PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At
07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>>yeah
- let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>>thread
in ages.... *yawn*
>
>
>I
reread Big Sur while on my California
pilgrimage in September. I also
>drove
down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
>around
for a while. I stood on the rocks and
read "Sea" - listening to
>the
waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life
ended, Big Sur is always a
>heartbreaking
read for me - he's so raw and broken.
If he had beaten the
>alcohol
and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
>struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
>
>....shush.....Shirk....Boom
plop...
>No
human words bespeak
>the
token sorrow older
>than
old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
>
>Judith
>
>
I
haven't read Big Sur in a long time.
Reading
this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
Deep
Sea Say? with the chorus
What
did the deep sea say?
What
did the deep sea say?
It
moaned and it groaned
and it
splashed and it foamed
and it
rolled on its' weary way
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:16:28 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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Gary
Grismore cited the following:
>
Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of
>
years:
> *The last public guillotining (sp?) in
France occurred on
>
June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as
>
well as a group of higher-class clientele who had rented every possible
>
window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices. The crowd cheered at
4:50
> am
when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover
> of
almost every French newspaper.
> *The last public execution in the USA
reportedly occurred in Owensboro,
KY
> in
1936. This was witnessed by a crowd of
20,000, many of whom had
>
attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am
>
hanging. A cheer was raised at the
falling of the bolt, and soon the
>
still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and
>
tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair.
Two doctors were finally able to
>
make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting
a
>
groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally
>
declared at 5:45.
In my
home state (Wisconsin) there has only been one official execution,
over
100 years ago. The reaction of the mob
was so appalling (similar to
that
described above) that capital punishment was legally abolished here,
and so
far remains so. Although there are
those who would like to roll
back
civilization once again...
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:35:16 -0600
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From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
Comments:
To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <msg1259953.thr-63eeecba.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Thu,
20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
>How can an atheist be spiritual? I
understand how spirit and the
>
>supreme
>
>being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual
>
>do.
>
>Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line
>
>with
>
>atheism.
>
> because all atheism states is the
absence of a belief in a
>
godhead, period. now, atheism is as
much a trap as any other ism but i
>
won't get into that.
>
As
Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:59:48 -0800
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From: Maggie Gerrity
<u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ginsberg memorial
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I'm very interested in learning more about
the Allen Ginsberg
memorial
which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
general
public? If so, will it be a free event?
I'm glad to see that so many notable people
have committed
themselves
to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
remarkable
person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
put pen
to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
alarming,
and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
worked
on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
learned
so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
'Howl'
back in the 60's."
He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a
man, and he will
continue
to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
life
for all of my days.
Maggie G.
Am I
myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by
Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:17:04 -0500
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
In-Reply-To: <3475B372.1E47@concentric.net>
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>
Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?
It has
been _very_ retouched. Joyce Johnson is
supposed to be standing
right
behind him leaning against the wall. I
don't think the leg of the R
was
visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:27:16 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
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At
06:17 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?
>
>It
has been _very_ retouched. Joyce
Johnson is supposed to be standing
>right
behind him leaning against the wall. I
don't think the leg of the R
>was
visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.
>
>------------------
>Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
>
I seem
to also remember having seen it in color.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:12:24 -0500
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From: You_Be Fine
<AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
In a
message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST, judith wrote:
<<
Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and
broken. If he had beaten the
alcohol and lived, it would have only been
interesting commentary on his
struggle.
Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>>
I
couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer and
felt
the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,
which
are perfect, disturbing and true.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:35:15 -0500
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From: You_Be Fine
<AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: A little too much of the Dharma
In a
message dated 97-11-21 14:55:17 EST, Adrien wrote:
<<
This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)
>>
Jack
thought a lot about the toilet, you know, not just in 1955 but on and
on. In
BIG SUR elements of the ritual of shitting become real issues for him,
and I
quote:
"The
President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great
bishops
and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory
worker
with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers
and
presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive
traveling
cases in which they place these various expensive English imported
hair
brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around
with
dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and
water!
it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the
funniest
things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're
being
called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around
with
clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]
In only
slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:
"In
Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing
special.
Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired
go and
lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will
understand.
I
always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality
when I
read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his
body
while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:03:38 -0600
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From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
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At
02:59 PM 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
> I'm very interested in learning more about
the Allen Ginsberg
>memorial
which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
>general
public? If so, will it be a free event?
> I'm glad to see that so many notable people
have committed
>themselves
to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
>remarkable
person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
>put
pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
>alarming,
and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
>worked
on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
>learned
so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
>'Howl'
back in the 60's."
> He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a
man, and he will
>continue
to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
>life
for all of my days.
> Maggie G.
>Am
I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Sent
by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>That
crazy guy wrote and recited that crazy poem Howl back in
the
fifties.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:04:30 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
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Maggie
Gerrity wrote:
>
> I'm very interested in learning more about
the Allen Ginsberg
>
memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
>
general public? If so, will it be a free event?
> I'm glad to see that so many notable people
have committed
>
themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
>
remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
>
put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
>
alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
>
worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
>
learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
>
'Howl' back in the 60's."
> He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a
man, and he will
>
continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
>
life for all of my days.
> Maggie G.
> Am
I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
>
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
MAGGIE: The Parks Department says June 3 is the date
for the annual
Central
Park Conservancy and regrets erroneously notifying me
otherwise. The tribute, planned as a two-day observance
(one day in
Central
Park and the next day in Newark's new PAC Center) is expected to
attract
poets and artists from all over the world.
Amiri Baraka and I
have
struggled to get the Central Park date because all previous
Ginsberg
Memorials were held within 4 walls, and many who wanted to
attend
couldn't BECuaaw there wasn't enough room.
We call the June
tribute
"A Convocation of Contemporaneity's 'Best Minds.'" The event
will be
open to all and the date will be June 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12. An
executive
committee meeting must be held shortly to decide which date.
---Al
Aronowitz, secretary, THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:15:18 -0800
Reply-To: gbarker@thegrid.net
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From: Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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Tyson
Ouellette wrote:
> to remain in the semantic vein, i've
always understood agnostic to
>
simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
>
particular religion.
I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means
that I believe that there
is
something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is
beyond
my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to
figure
its intentions.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:13:46 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: TIME Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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Anne
wrote:
>
>
Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
>
> to remain in the semantic
vein, i've always understood agnostic to
>
> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
>
> particular religion.
>
> I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it
means that I believe that there
> is
something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is
>
beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to
> figure
its intentions.
sounds
like maybe you've comprehended it and named it Time.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
"Death
needs Time for what it lives to Grow on - for Ah Pook's Sweet
Sake."
-- WSB
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:48:06 -0600
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?=
<ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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You_Be
Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>>In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST,
judith
wrote:
>
><<
Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
>
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
>
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
>
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a
suicide note.
>
> >>
>I
couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer an=
d
>felt
the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,
>which
are perfect, disturbing and true.
I
really do like Big Sur despite its sadness. You can see that this is
Kerouac
at his most worn out and also at his most sincere. It is as if some
of the
magic of life, and how he had viewed life in say, OTR, had kind of
been
torn apart by the alcaholism and the reality of life and failure and
relationships.
Now he can look back on what happened to him and see that he
is
failing but that he no longer has the energy to repair the "botch of his
days".
He is almost done "going". Is it in here that he says that it will
be his
last hitchhike, or that he is done hitchhiking? Big Sur is my
favorite
Kerouac after OTR.
leo
"All
I wanted was to be a mariachi like my ancestors. But the city I
thought
would bring me luck...Brought only a curse...I lost my guitar, my
hand,
and her...With this injury, I may never play the guitar
again...Without
her, I have no love. But with the dog...and the weapons,
I'm
prepared...for the future." --The Mariachi in "El Mariachi"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:01:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
_______
> a
few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
>
generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
>
freedom.
>
also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
>
not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
> in
the sentence
>
"And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
I can't
get over how bitter Jack is in the first chapter. He's refuting
everything
he used to enjoy doing. It's a big, bitter,
been-there-done-that-so-what
attitude. It's also sad to see him abandon
his
spontaneous prose, of which he was very proud. In 1967 he comes
across
as a boozed-up, lazy man. As we go further into the book, we'll
see the
familiar Kerouac reverie that made him so great (if the book was
ALL
bitterness, I wouldn't be rereading it again). We just have to
endure
the grumpy old man's surliness in the first five or so pages.
Also,
you can sense a bit of sad longing for his days with Neal...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:10:25 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
Comments:
To: saras@sisna.com
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Sara
Straw wrote:
>
>
Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
>
You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
>
topic should initiate it.
> s.
I'll
initiate a new topic...
Why are
you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn
more
about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do
you
love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,
but not
Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac
and
Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do
you
love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg
and
Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?
All we
know is beat-l has received another surly member.
emoticonlessly
yrs,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:40:20 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Mama Collins
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Mama
Collins
Shell,
Eyes of
lost child,
Wanderer
on highways,
Going
home?
One
Christmas,
Recalling
my name,
A flash
I recognized.
Later,
sitting outside
Nursing
home,
I
refused to see the remnants of
Matriarchal
dynasty.
Thoughtless,
lost shell,
No
person here.
Now,
wishing to see beyond the shell,
Regrets
are sifted.
Synapsis
misfiring.
Not
arteries, but sickness.
Had I
known
Fear of
aging,
of
madness,
of
slipping slowly away,
of
suffering.
Had I
but seen beyond the shell.
Perhaps,
sifting regrets,
Looking
to see beyond.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:47:54 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Adrien
Begrand wrote:
>
>
Sara Straw wrote:
>
>
>
> Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
>
> You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
>
> topic should initiate it.
>
> s.
>
>
I'll initiate a new topic...
>
Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn
>
more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do
>
you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,
>
but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac
>
and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do
>
you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg
>
and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?
>
>
All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.
>
> emoticonlessly
yrs,
>
>
Adrien
i just
hate them all to hell!!!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:22 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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>On
Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
>>
Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
>>
>>
What did the deep sea say?
>>
What did the deep sea say?
>>
It moaned and it groaned
>>
and it splashed and it foamed
>>
and it rolled on its' weary way
>
>That's
really nice. I'm amazed of how little
Woody Guthrie I've actually
>heard,
considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite
>artists. Would you mind telling me where this song is
available? Thanks,
>Gary
There
are Guthrie tapes and CD's available.
Many with Cisco Houston. They
compile
them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this
one
you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is
there
(I forget the name of this particular tape.
I think it is called
what
did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there. One thing I
can say
for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress
set.
You
can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording. Just make sure it is
Woody
Guthrie. Sometimes they package
tributes that will fool you. You
think
you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people
singing
the songs.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:23:42 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: woody guthrie (was Re: Big Sur
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did
the
>
>> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
>
>>
>
>> What did the deep sea say?
>
>> What did the deep sea say?
>
>> It moaned and it groaned
>
>> and it splashed and it foamed
>
>> and it rolled on its' weary way
>
>
>
>That's really nice. I'm amazed of
how little Woody Guthrie I've actually
>
>heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite
>
>artists. Would you mind telling me
where this song is available? Thanks,
>
>Gary
>
>
There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available.
Many with Cisco Houston. They
>
compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this
>
one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is
>
there (I forget the name of this particular tape. I think it is called
>
what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there. One thing I
>
can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress
> set.
>
>
You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording. Just make sure it is
>
Woody Guthrie. Sometimes they package
tributes that will fool you. You
>
think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people
>
singing the songs.
some of
the tributes are really pretty good.
they definitely show some
of the
range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just
on
dylan.
his
songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of
Man"
and "Born to Win" are Excellent.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. oh yeah that other book "Bound for
Glory" ain't bad either.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 07:32:41 UT
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Sherri
<love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
i agree
with you, Judith. it's an amazing piece
of confessional writing that
one
wonders if the confessor really understood just how much he was showing
us. what a raw bearing of human soul in torment,
loss, conflict and longing.
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of
Judith Campbell
Sent: Friday, November 21, 1997 12:12 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Big Sur
At
07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>yeah
- let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>thread
in ages.... *yawn*
I
reread Big Sur while on my California
pilgrimage in September. I also
drove
down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
around
for a while. I stood on the rocks and
read "Sea" - listening to
the
waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life
ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking
read for me - he's so raw and broken.
If he had beaten the
alcohol
and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
....shush.....Shirk....Boom
plop...
No
human words bespeak
the
token sorrow older
than
old this wave....
Excerpt from "Sea"
JK - Big Sur
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:40:49 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: woody guthrie (was Re: Big Sur
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I have
to recommend _Ballads of Sacco & Vanzetti_. Truly Amazing!
Adrien
RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
some of the tributes are really pretty good.
they definitely show some
> of
the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just
> on
dylan.
>
>
his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books
"Seeds of
>
Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
>
p.s. oh yeah that other book
"Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:24:43 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: latin people
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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cari
amici,
i've a
flashback of a movie with Dennis Hopper
in a
latino american country (Mexico?) dated
circa
1970, where a group of friends have a
similar
experience to Sal Paradise and
Dean
Moriarty in the 3th part of "On the Road".
somehow
or other the exotic countries are
described
such as place where people goes
crazy
and transgressive. this way is a bit
disappointing.
why Mexico, Brazil, Italy, etc.
are
match with such strange peculiarity?
i.e. the
"german" people (or others of course, but
i've
noticed them) when are in Italy they have
drunk
and very rude, but when are in his own country
(saying
Munich) they are square and respectable person.
un
saluto a tutti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:43:17 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Mama Collins
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hi
bentz: your pome just brought to mind all the mixed feelings i
experienced
in looking at pictures taken of my father this past summer.
alcoholic
and small strokes in succession, i looked at the photos and
saw
only a shell, no light of comprehension in the eyes, couldn't write
of it
yet. thanks, you give my muse a wider scope than my mind has been
able to
allow/
mc
R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
Mama Collins
>
>
Shell,
>
Eyes of lost child,
>
Wanderer on highways,
>
Going home?
>
>
One Christmas,
>
Recalling my name,
> A
flash I recognized.
>
Later, sitting outside
>
Nursing home,
> I
refused to see the remnants of
>
Matriarchal dynasty.
>
Thoughtless, lost shell,
> No
person here.
>
>
Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,
>
Regrets are sifted.
>
Synapsis misfiring.
>
Not arteries, but sickness.
>
Had I known
>
Fear of aging,
> of
madness,
> of
slipping slowly away,
> of
suffering.
>
Had I but seen beyond the shell.
>
Perhaps, sifting regrets,
>
Looking to see beyond.
>
> --
>
>
Peace,
>
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:12:40 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after
>
I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make
>
good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I
> also
know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll
>
understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too
>
sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to
> be
a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and
>
washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in
>
three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very
>
'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of
>
doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use
>
regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).
>
Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>
people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>
sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years
> to
such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or
>
recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I
>
can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,
>
used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing
> no
one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or
>
girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people
>
have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?
>
Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a
>
bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?
>
_______
> a
few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
>
generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
>
freedom.
>
also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
>
not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
> in
the sentence
>
"And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
>
_____
> my
hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this
>
territory?
> mc
at the
risk of appearing *too* twisted, the second reading of this
didn't
seem to me to be harsh at all. it
seemed in fact that JK was
near a
breakthrough to a recognition of the absurdity of wanting
everyone
to walk alike.
this
morning i was goofing around and found this site
<http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.html>
and it
made me think even more about my second reading. In the earlier
Kerouac
that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of
new
people who were different. Here he
seems to not only have lost that
-- but
gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them
nor
parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being
able to
see the possibility of being part of the human race he once
enjoyed
so much. But the wonderful absurdity of
the human race is
probably
precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor
across
the hall. The current trends in culture
trying to teach suburban
mall
conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New
Yorker
decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in
various
groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to
be
really very close to the anger suggested in these openings. And yet
it is
just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement
that
things aren't the same. I think Vanity
in the title will be
telling
- the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but just
realizing
that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless
felt
deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend
and its
lessons for me (at least).
At any
rate that is a saturday morning twisted salina monologue ---- i
imagine
that my third reading of the opening would send me somewhere
completely
different <las>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were
on my Xmas list for my
family
and relatives and whatnot. But i'm
interested, in the event that
i can
collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
order
(excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
suggestions?
also
thanks to antoine for some Xmas music tips -- any other backchannel
Xmas
music ideas will be thoroughly appreciated.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:23:19 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>
people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>
sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
> mc
anyone
know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
here? i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw
many but too lazy to
check
publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
to the
other side of writer's block>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:25:32 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: atheism-agnostic
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>
Subject:
> Atheism -- Agnostic
> Date:
> Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500
> From:
> Dave Redfern
<mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
>
>
> I
once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism.
This was intertwined with a
>
view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose
>
was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that
>
religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the
>
question one step.
>
> As
the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a
>
feeling of being attached to something bigger grew. My first definable
>
spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but
>
cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the
>
Laurentians. I was alone in the blue
sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high
> on
exertion. The crisp sun peering through
the leafless maples, dancing on
>
the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees
>
creaking and my own panting. And then,
it shifted. I was no longer a lone
>
skier in nature but a small part of nature.
I felt connected, not only to
>
the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my
>
descendants to come, to everything and everyone. I was a part of this big
>
rolling ball of life and it felt good.
There was no past, no future, there
>
was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to
>
be. In bliss I floated, not seeing
angels or Gods, but simply being. I
>
slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and
>
forever changed.
Wasn't
there one time when Kerouac (to put this nicely) tried copulating
with
Nature/Earth in his own backyard?
Wondering if there was any truth
to
this, and was it done more as a sign of frustration or a real love of
nature
or a spiritual thing?
anyone?
Bueller? Anyone?
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:43:14 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
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From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Vanity of dulouz
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I've
looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to
carry
vanity of dulouz. that was the one i
was wanting to read next,
after
'some of the dharma.' is 'dulouz' out
of print? or is it
avaiable
(Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out
here...)
and
does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas
estate
plans on releasing next??????
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:55:38 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>>
Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>>
people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>>
sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>>
mc
>
>anyone
know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>here?
Marshall
McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:59:46 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vanity of dulouz
Comments:
To: cawilkie@comic.net
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>I've
looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to
>carry
vanity of dulouz. that was the one i
was wanting to read next,
>after
'some of the dharma.' is 'dulouz' out
of print? or is it
>avaiable
(Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out
>here...)
It is
in print. Costs 11.95. Try another bookstore or Tower Records.
There
is www.amazon.com or www.barnes&noble.com that are web booksellers.
I have
never bought from them, but they will send them to you in a matter
of days
at a discount price.
If
anyone has used these on-line behemoths I'd be curious to hear about it.
Also a
great humanitarian here provided www.bibliofind.com which seems to
be used
books but it has a massive great inventory (inventory should
actually
be in quotes).
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:36:47 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
In-Reply-To: <199711211752.MAA06052@pike.sover.net>
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well, i
dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
question:
does
beat studies fall into the same issues of
canonizm
that many in such field seek to open up, by
highlighting
only a certain few writers? (and maybe
the
list falls prey to this, as well?)
kerouac,
ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
and if
this is the case, does anyone know why?
jim
donahue
On Fri,
21 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
>
first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
>
any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
>
consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
>
and i have a bit of an empty head right now,
>
but (armorplated glass house)
> i
keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
> or
philosophy 101
>
does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
>
winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
> mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:44:25 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James
Donahue wrote:
>
>
well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
>
question:
>
does beat studies fall into the same issues of
>
canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
>
highlighting only a certain few writers?
(and maybe
>
the list falls prey to this, as well?)
>
kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
>
and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
>
jim donahue
probably,
imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
nice
move to provide some hopeful flexibility.
Go Rinaldo Go.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:47:48 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
>Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>
>> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>
>> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>
>> mc
>
>
>
>anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>
>here?
>
>
Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
well
obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
Galaxy
- i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading
lists for Jack that
we'd
been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
basic
themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
frustrate
a natural born writer.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:51:18 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
In-Reply-To: <347719F9.2290@midusa.net>
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On Sat,
22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
James Donahue wrote:
>
>
>
> well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
>
> question:
>
> does beat studies fall into the same issues of
>
> canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
>
> highlighting only a certain few writers?
(and maybe
>
> the list falls prey to this, as well?)
>
> kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
>
> and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
>
> jim donahue
>
>
probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
>
nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility.
Go Rinaldo Go.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
do have
the html of this website?
id
rather go direct than have to swin through all the
stuff
that would come up on a keyword search.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:54:04 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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David
Rhaesa wrote:
>
p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac
books were on my Xmas list for my
>
family and relatives and whatnot. But
i'm interested, in the event that
> i
can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
>
order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
>
suggestions?
I make
no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them
up:
Visions
of Gerard
Dr. Sax
Maggie
Cassidy
Vanity
of Duluoz
The
Town and the City
On The
Road
Visions
of Cody
Lonesome
Traveler
Book of
Blues
The
Subterraneans
The
Book of Dreams
The
Dharma Bums
The
Scripture of the Golden Eternity
Old
Angel Midnight
Some of
the Dharma
Desolation
Angels
Mexico
City Blues
Tristessa
Big Sur
Trip
Trap
Satori
in Paris
Hoo
boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
thread
is going to be interesting....
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:58:56 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James
Donahue wrote:
>
> do
have the html of this website?
> id
rather go direct than have to swin through all the
>
stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
the
shit-kicking list is at:
<http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/thebeats.htm>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:08:09 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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> As
Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
>
Cordially,
>
Mike Skau
I give
up, what does THAT mean?
It
sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:14:36 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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>Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>>
>Marie Countryman wrote:
>>
>> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>>
>> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>>
>> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>>
>> mc
>>
>
>>
>anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>>
>here?
>>
>>
Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
>
>well
obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
>Galaxy
- i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
>certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading
lists for Jack that
>we'd
been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
>basic
themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
>frustrate
a natural born writer.
>
You
think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?
I am
sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings
about
Finnegans wake.
(Which
McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in
Vanity
of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:38:06 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Splicing in AG into the Beat-Legend (was
Re: Ordering of the
Duluoz Legend
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Jym
Mooney wrote:
>
> I
make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line
them
>
up:
OK --
thats An order so folks may want to quibble about it in the
previous
thread. Now i'm wondering from those
out there (and i know
some of
you are out there!) how you would splice in the various books by
Allen
Ginsberg. (yes, WSB, Corso, Snyder, etc.
etc. are down the road
in this
line of thinking. no particular reason
i picked AG second.
just
did).....thanks for the help. i like
this list that although is
still
in fetus stage - may be going somewhere someday somehow.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
>
>
Visions of Gerard
>
Dr. Sax
>
Maggie Cassidy
>
Vanity of Duluoz
>
The Town and the City
> On
The Road
>
Visions of Cody
>
Lonesome Traveler
>
Book of Blues
>
The Subterraneans
>
The Book of Dreams
>
The Dharma Bums
>
The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>
Old Angel Midnight
>
Some of the Dharma
>
Desolation Angels
>
Mexico City Blues
>
Tristessa
>
Big Sur
>
Trip Trap
>
Satori in Paris
>
>
Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
>
thread is going to be interesting....
>
>
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:01:53 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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>
RACE wrote:
>
this morning i was goofing around and found this site
>
>http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.ht
>ml
>
and it made me think even more about my second reading. In the earlier
>
Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of
>
new people who were different. Here he
seems to not only have lost
>
that
> --
but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them
>
nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being
>
able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once
>
enjoyed so much. But the wonderful
absurdity of the human race is
>
probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor
>
across the hall. The current trends in
culture trying to teach
>
suburban
>
mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New
>
Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in
>
various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to
> be
really very close to the anger suggested in these openings. And yet
> it
is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement
>
that things aren't the same. I think
Vanity in the title will be
>
telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but
>
just
>
realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless
>
felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend
>
and its lessons for me (at least).
I have
some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I
see it
once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.
And if
you want to work the word "vanity' into it, I would see it more as
the
kind of vanity one would find in the Biblical Ecclesiastes, where, if
I
remember it correct, it is said "All is vanity." The end of all of
man's
attempts to understand living is frustration.
Man is born to toil,
suffer
and to die. Perhaps in Kerouac's
reasoning: what does life really
amount
to? His struggle to get to college as a
football player, to leave
football
and become a writer; cross the country numerous times, write
about
it, but still see himself as misunderstood.
What is there left to
do but
drink himself to death? All his joy is
so transitory in
relation
to his despair. The same struggle he writes of in Big Sur (pg.
183)
"O hell, I'm sick of life--If I had any guts I'd drown myself in
that
tiresome water..." And that frustration about the vanity (futility)
of life
combined with (pg. 191) "I feel a great ghastly hatred of myself
and
everything."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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wrote
_the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.
RACE
--- wrote:
>
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>
> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>
> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>
> mc
>
>
anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>
here? i scanned the M's on my
bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to
>
check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
> to
the other side of writer's block>
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:01:11 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: opening and closing books duluoz
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hey
diane: my computer ate yr homework, or else i'd piggy back this onto
your
post:(sorry dave i can't see any happy jack here - also in your
reading
list, i'd put duluoz last of the list)
going
to the text itself, in opening and closing books re penquin
edition:
p 23
"you
kill yourself to get to the grave. especially you kill yourself to
get to
the grave before you even die, and the name of that grave is
'success',
th name of that grave is hullaballo boomboom horseshit.
p29
"for
after all what is success? you kill yourself and a few others to
get to
the top of your profession, so to speak, so that when you reach
middle
age or a little later you can stay home and cultivate your own
garden
in bliss: but by that time, because you've invented some kind of
better
mousetrap, mobs come rushing across your garden and trampling all
your
flowers. what's with that?
pg
262-3
"in
fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to
understand
that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from
the
folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to
permissable
fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began
to get
a new vision of my own of a truer
darkness which just
overshadowed
all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and
hipsterism'
and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to give
it.
in the
purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim
ceiling
while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,
beautiful
and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with
raindew,
how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture
is just
there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall
off
sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if
1967)
see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their
eyes:
i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and
dense
with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like
say,
swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in
'heaven'
slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what
they
were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an
alligator
by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by
unconcerned.
just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient
india
and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly
too,
gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not
jeweled,
her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother
nature
giving you birth and eating you back.
and i
say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of
bestial
creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good
intentions
or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?
it is,
face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,
jehovah,
yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say
'now
your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for
mercy
anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in
today's
Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the barn
even in
ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont (sic)
listen,
he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of
what
they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic
sects
but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'
that's
not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human
father
pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father, why
has
thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is
copping
out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole
problem
and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing
that
'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue
morgue
when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits there
in
death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible
about
the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the most
tearful
and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."
_____
the
very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
who
cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he
had
become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
becoming
so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
of
self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
having
gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
successfully
(in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
breakdown
was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
humanity
and spirituality.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Kerouac Gap Ad
To all
you Madison Avenue Advertizers:
I think
if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same
photo
as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is
possible
that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different
photos.
And I
would think that the person who took the photo has the rights to
republish
the photo. The photographer was Jerome Yulsman.
I don't
know if you have to get permission from the estate to publish a
public
figure, even though in this case I think that they (Gap corp) did.
By the
way, you can still see the Bar sign if you go to a bar in the village
called
Kettle of Fish, not far from NYU. The bar moved from its original
site,
and the "bar" sign, which was in the alley, is now inside the bar.
so it
goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:10 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: god vs beat vs truth
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I think
the reason I became an atheist is that I don't believe that there=
is
an
afterlife, or that there is a 'god' that has any control over my life =
(or
any
body else's life). I belief that my life is a (fortunate) biological
accident.
(fortunate for me anyway)
And it
is because of that belief, that I think that this Life is so much =
more
sacred
because this is the one and only.=20
It also
makes me more aware of the misery that is around me in the world =
(I
am
happy to report that my personal life is relatively happy). I am sorry
that
these people have to go through their one and only life in such desp=
air
or
unhappiness (not necessarily due to their own fault).
As far
as spirituality, I believe that each person has a soul, and that s=
ome
are
better developed (due to personal choice, chance, dumb luck, circumst=
ance
of
events, environment, family, friends, mistakes, successes, planning,
surprises,
and the unexplained) and that you always have to strive. So ha=
ving
spirituality
has no relationship to a belief in an afterlife.
You
treat a dog like a dog, it becomes a dog. You treat a dog like a pers=
on,
it
becomes a person. You treat a person like a dog, it becomes a dog. You
treat a
person like a person, it becomes a person.
Life is
one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, t=
hen
slowly add the right ingredients at the right time.
Unfortunately, one o=
f
the
problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient =
at
the
right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to t=
oo
much of
the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to ge=
t it
right.
Some people stop caring about the recipe,
think that they don't h=
ave
to
worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can =
be
more
delicate than a souffl=E9.
Allen
Ginsberg told me that he doesn't believe in god or an afterlife,
because
he cannot believe in anything he hasn't experienced. He also said
that
the term 'beat generation' was just a media creation.
that is
the end of my philosophy,
so it
goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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>David
Rhaesa wrote:
>
>>
p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac
books were on my Xmas list for my
>>
family and relatives and whatnot. But
i'm interested, in the event that
>>
i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the
"best"
>>
order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
>>
suggestions?
>
>I
make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line
them
>up:
>
>Visions
of Gerard
>Dr.
Sax
>Maggie
Cassidy
>Vanity
of Duluoz
>The
Town and the City
>On
The Road
>Visions
of Cody
>Lonesome
Traveler
>Book
of Blues
>The
Subterraneans
>The
Book of Dreams
>The
Dharma Bums
>The
Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>Old
Angel Midnight
>Some
of the Dharma
>Desolation
Angels
>Mexico
City Blues
>Tristessa
>Big
Sur
>Trip
Trap
>Satori
in Paris
>
>Hoo
boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
>thread
is going to be interesting....
>
>Jym
PIC,
too.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:25:19 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James
Donahue wrote:
>
> On
Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> James Donahue wrote:
>
> >
>
> > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
>
> > question:
>
> > does beat studies fall into the same issues of
>
> > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
>
> > highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
>
> > the list falls prey to this, as well?)
>
> > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
>
> > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
>
> > jim donahue
>
>
>
> probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
>
> nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility. Go Rinaldo Go.
>
>
>
> david rhaesa
>
> salina, Kansas
>
>
> do
have the html of this website?
> id
rather go direct than have to swin through all the
>
stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
i
agree, i love the inclusiveness of the rinaldo's approach.
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:59:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Forthcoming stuff...
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At
11:19 AM 11/22/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Paul
A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>>
>>
>and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas
>>
>estate plans on releasing next??????
>>
>
>>
>cathy
>>
>>
>>
>
>> The second volume of Selected Letters has
been delayed until January 1999.
>>
After that, a third volume of letters and the journals (in 3 volumes) will
>>
be released and it is reasonable to think that other works will follow, such
>>
as Kerouac's juvenalia works and also other archival material; notebooks,
>>
more poems, etc. .... The authorized bio is in the works for a release in a
>>
year that will start with a 2...meanwhile, Ellis Amburn has a bio coming out
>>
June 1998. Also, Geffen Records has a release for early next year featuring
>>
new recordings of Kerouac reading and a song written by him and performed by
>>
Tom Waits ("Home I'll Never Be" I believe it is called)and Primus.
>> The Kerouac
Quarterly
>>
>> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>>
>> (Almost updated daily for your
edification and delight....P.
>>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>>
Henry David Thoreau
>>
>>
>
>
>
>thanks
for the info, paul. i appreciate it
>
>
>cathy
>
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:40:56 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: god vs beat vs truth
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Attila
Gyenis wrote:
>
Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, then
>
slowly add the right ingredients at the
right time. Unfortunately, one of
>
the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient at
>
the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to too
>
much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to get it
>
right. Some people stop caring about the recipe, think that they don't have
> to
worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can be
>
more delicate than a souffli.
>
>
>
that is the end of my philosophy,
> so
it goes, Attila
Gee,
Attila, I LIKE that, and I like your name, Attila Gyenis, too.
I think
you've summed it up really well, and there's nothing I can add
that
will enhance it... so, bon apetite!
s