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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:45:41 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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I have
a couple of things to say about the Stone on Kerouac article.
Stone
writes about On the Road, "...yet that earnestness never seemed to
bring
the reader any closer to the touch of redemption..."
What is
clear to me in reading Kerouac and it was even present early on
in OTR,
is that there is NO redemption for the characters or for the
reader. And it's a false expectation to believe that
there should be a
"happy
everafter" ending to the book or to life itself. Perhaps Kerouac
was, in
fact, searching for redemption but he never found it, or if he
found
it, he didn't accept it. Part of that
is perhaps the fact that he
failed
to find anything in the American dream that "authenticated" his
existence.
Stone
also wrote "...when the author approached the layers of art or the
emptiness
of Buddha-hood there was a naive posturing about the writing
that
made it seem ignorant."
I fail
to see any posturing in Kerouac or ignorance in his writing.
Perhaps
what Stone percieves as being naive is Kerouac's sensitivity, and
maybe
there is a problem with being too-sensitive, that you are not
hardened
enough to accept all that life throws at you.
But it seems to
me
Kerouac was pretty intelligent and I wonder if what Stone is objecting
to is
what he perceives as sentimentality, which we have discussed here
before. But I fully agree with the quoted passage
from Gerald Nicosia
about
Kerouac's spiritual search and I love the passage which ends OTR. I
think
that Stone is reading it as being a kind of dreamy-eyed innocence
when in
fact it evokes a never-ending search for something that is not
being
found and all of those "people dreaming in the immensity of it"
don't
have a clue if they will find what they are dreaming about, but
they
continue to dream just the same because they are continually
confronted
with "the forlorn rags of growing old."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:25:08 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
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>My
response to this (too long to be printed as a letter, so run as a
>guest
>column)
will be printed today and be at [http://www.csil.appstate.edu/
>beat.htm]
by later tonight.
read your response, guy, mad cool! props
to you for a a
knowledgable
counter-attack that blew an uninformed piece of maggot
dung
ouyt of the water... suggest all to check it out, but read the
original
first, it's a riot to read what this "beats failed" guy said.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:48:21 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
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From: Leon Tabory
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Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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Hello
Diane,
As
usual I am enthralled with your sure handed elucidations that show me the
value
of scholarship based upon a compassionate heart and vast intelligence.
I am a
bit uneasy though about the seeking of personal authentication in
national
dreams. It seems to me that dreams of a nation are to improve the
culture,
the soil, the environment, in which human life might flourish, but
not to
seek personal authentication through it. Being an american, or
twentieth
century person anywhere can provide some degree of cultural
identification,
but perhaps never a personal one.
I think
that Kerouac was too inelligent too seek a personal identification
or
authentication through any national dreams to begin with.
Happy
holiday season everybody
leon
sage-----
From:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Tuesday, December 09, 1997 5:20 PM
Subject:
Re: Stone on Kerouac
>I
have a couple of things to say about the Stone on Kerouac article.
>
>Stone
writes about On the Road, "...yet that earnestness never seemed to
>bring
the reader any closer to the touch of redemption..."
>
>What
is clear to me in reading Kerouac and it was even present early on
>in
OTR, is that there is NO redemption for the characters or for the
>reader. And it's a false expectation to believe that
there should be a
>"happy
everafter" ending to the book or to life itself. Perhaps Kerouac
>was,
in fact, searching for redemption but he never found it, or if he
>found
it, he didn't accept it. Part of that
is perhaps the fact that he
>failed
to find anything in the American dream that "authenticated" his
>existence.
>
>Stone
also wrote "...when the author approached the layers of art or the
>emptiness
of Buddha-hood there was a naive posturing about the writing
>that
made it seem ignorant."
>
>I
fail to see any posturing in Kerouac or ignorance in his writing.
>Perhaps
what Stone percieves as being naive is Kerouac's sensitivity, and
>maybe
there is a problem with being too-sensitive, that you are not
>hardened
enough to accept all that life throws at you.
But it seems to
>me
Kerouac was pretty intelligent and I wonder if what Stone is objecting
>to
is what he perceives as sentimentality, which we have discussed here
>before. But I fully agree with the quoted passage
from Gerald Nicosia
>about
Kerouac's spiritual search and I love the passage which ends OTR. I
>think
that Stone is reading it as being a kind of dreamy-eyed innocence
>when
in fact it evokes a never-ending search for something that is not
>being
found and all of those "people dreaming in the immensity of it"
>don't
have a clue if they will find what they are dreaming about, but
>they
continue to dream just the same because they are continually
>confronted
with "the forlorn rags of growing old."
>DC
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:59:18 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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>actually,
i'm in the same situation. i just dropped school for the
>semester.
i
>was
looking for some road trips. i'd love to come with you. but i'm
>torn,
i do
>agree
with patricia. you should be in school sometime. hell, so should
>i
once
>i
get a grasp on what the heck i'm doing with my life. trust me i know
>how
you
>feel.
good luck to
>you,
man. i wish you the best.
>~~marlene
well thank you... i never cease to be
amazed and enthralled at the
number
of people who feel the same way... it
also helps to clarify for
me what
directions my writing and efforts in general have to go in... a
new
beat spirit is what we need now more than ever, maybe even more
than
the 50's.... what a freaking mess we
live in, eh?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:19:17 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
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Alex
Howard deserves a healthy hail of pats on the back and a unison shout of
"Well
done!" I lift my glass with respect
and appreciation.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:03:32 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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...as
for myself, i live in serbia. we've just had a third round of
presidential
elections, while the fourth is coming up in two weeks.
needless
to say, to choose between the candidates is equal to choosing
between
death by hanging or drowning. as i was walking to work yesterday
(as
city transportation is in the state of collapse, and the faces you
see
there may easily ruin your day), listening to the electoral results
on my
walkman, feeling cheated and humiliated, i was reading kerouac as
well.
book of dreams. there, i found a sentence "as i say, words, images
&
dreams are fingers of false imagination
pointing at the reality of
holy
emptiness - but my words are still many & my images stretch to the
holy
void like a road that has an end - it's the ROAD OF THE HOLY VOID
this
writing, this life, this image of regrets--"
i don't
know. maybe it wasn't the sentence. but for a second a had this
feeling
that all the discussions on why he drank and whether he was
unhappy
etc. don't make any sense. that buddhism speaks the truth: this
is not
real. we are in fact all beautiful and perfectly happy. he was
perfectly
happy. and all the horror within and outside us is an
illusion.
including
politics. needless to say, all the despair was gone.
somehow,
this experience i had connects with your message.
don't
know if it makes sense.
that's
all.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:58 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
Part of that is perhaps the fact that he
>
failed to find anything in the American dream that "authenticated"
his
>
existence.
> DC
It
seems that any attempt to authenticate is intrinsically inauthentic.
The
trying to be authentic separates from the authenticity sought. i'm
not far
enough into the whole Jack story (almost done with Big Sur right
now) to
see if this relates to his quandries - but it might.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
"there's
no success like failure and failure's no success at all." bob
dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:12:07 EST
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From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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In a
message dated 97-12-09 11:28:20 EST, you write:
<<
complacency is really an epidemic among
american college-aged folks.. >>
And it
is the blackest of Plague-Deaths, ubiquitous, super-epidemic, among
americans
once they get out of college...sadly enough, seems that college is
often
the peak of non-complacency...pathetic the condition of the people...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:19:45 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
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AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison/beat influence
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In a
message dated 97-12-09 03:12:25 EST, you write:
<<
And I do believe our man Arthur got his idea about "prolonged derangement
of
the senses" from one William Blake, if
memory serves.. >>
Ahh
yes, _Marriage of Heaven and Hell_, no?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:39:44 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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VegasDaddy
wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-12-09 11:28:20 EST, you write:
>
>
<< complacency is really an epidemic among american college-aged folks.. >>
>
>
And it is the blackest of Plague-Deaths, ubiquitous, super-epidemic, among
>
americans once they get out of college...sadly enough, seems that college is
>
often the peak of non-complacency...pathetic the condition of the people...
some of
the people ain't so bad...in and out of college i've found
pretty
good folks and if they're plagued and it's contagious than the
complacency
is at least nothing life threatening.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:16:49 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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just
think of the Barney generation of carnage through mediocrity.
auuuggghhhhh!
mc
VegasDaddy
wrote:
> In
a message dated 97-12-09 11:28:20 EST, you write:
>
>
<< complacency is really an epidemic among american college-aged folks.. >>
>
>
And it is the blackest of Plague-Deaths, ubiquitous, super-epidemic, among
>
americans once they get out of college...sadly enough, seems that college is
>
often the peak of non-complacency...pathetic the condition of the people...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:41:40 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
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DCardKJHS
wrote:
>
>
Alex Howard deserves a healthy hail of pats on the back and a unison shout of
>
"Well done!" I lift my glass
with respect and appreciation.
What
did Alex Howard say to deserve such acclaim? --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz
THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:12:56 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu"
<henkel@wmich.edu>
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From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
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OVPR
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
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Alex,
job well done. Way to use the journalistic system of checks and balances.
-----Original
Message-----
From: DCardKJHS [SMTP:DCardKJHS@AOL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 11:19 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
Alex
Howard deserves a healthy hail of pats on the back and a unison shout of
"Well
done!" I lift my glass with
respect and appreciation.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:53:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Beat Movement Was A Failure
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It
seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
Generation,
except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im just
misunderstanding
what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
article?
~Nancy
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:17:41 EST
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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In a
message dated 97-12-10 06:51:37 EST, you write:
<<
just think of the Barney generation of carnage through mediocrity.
auuuggghhhhh!
mc >>
scary
thought
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:12:00 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:58 -0600
from <race@MIDUSA.NET>
I'm not
sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
Kerouac,
it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
his
art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
and
others did before him. I agree with
Diane wholeheartedly that he
never
found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
impossibility
of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
through
his work. How does one discover or
authenticate himself,
except
by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
national
identity, religion etc. In the end,
one's search for self may
end in
a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
but the
search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
ideas
nonetheless.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:34:26 EST
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
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AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: truly beat?
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dear
listees,
i just
finished reading "the beat movemnet was a failure" and alex's response.
first
of all, well done alex. he deserves a standing o. second of all,
something
in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
stated
something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a formula on
the
lifestyle
and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where to
begin
to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat." can any
of
you give me a clue as to what "truly
beat" is? i've considered the
impossibility
of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
~~Marlene
oh, and
to alex: i have a friend who was recently accepted to appalachian
state.i
was thinking of looking into the school myself. i just want to know
how you
like it. perhaps you could e-mail me privately. i'd appreciate it.
M84M79@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:42:13 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
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If
someone asked me if I am beat, I would tell them to beat it.
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Wednesday, December 10, 1997 8:36 AM
Subject:
truly beat?
>dear
listees,
>i
just finished reading "the beat movemnet was a failure" and alex's
response.
>first
of all, well done alex. he deserves a standing o. second of all,
>something
in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
>stated
something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a formula on
the
>lifestyle
and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where
to
>begin
to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat." can any
of
>you give me a clue as to what "truly
beat" is? i've considered the
>impossibility
of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
>~~Marlene
>
>oh,
and to alex: i have a friend who was recently accepted to appalachian
>state.i
was thinking of looking into the school myself. i just want to know
>how
you like it. perhaps you could e-mail me privately. i'd appreciate it.
>M84M79@aol.com
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:49:11 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
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Beat is
a word that hides/covers a multitude of sins and virtues, mostly
sins
though, kinda beats around the bush, leaves lots to the imagination of
the
beholder
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Wednesday, December 10, 1997 8:36 AM
Subject:
truly beat?
>dear
listees,
>i
just finished reading "the beat movemnet was a failure" and alex's
response.
>first
of all, well done alex. he deserves a standing o. second of all,
>something
in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
>stated
something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a formula on
the
>lifestyle
and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where
to
>begin
to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat." can any
of
>you give me a clue as to what "truly
beat" is? i've considered the
>impossibility
of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
>~~Marlene
>
>oh,
and to alex: i have a friend who was recently accepted to appalachian
>state.i
was thinking of looking into the school myself. i just want to know
>how
you like it. perhaps you could e-mail me privately. i'd appreciate it.
>M84M79@aol.com
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:15:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tyson Ouellette
<Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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>i
don't know. maybe it wasn't the sentence. but for a second a had this
>feeling
that all the discussions on why he drank and whether he was
>unhappy
etc. don't make any sense. that buddhism speaks the truth: this
>is
not real. we are in fact all beautiful and perfectly happy. he was
>perfectly
happy. and all the horror within and outside us is an
>illusion.
>somehow,
this experience i had connects with your message.
>don't
know if it makes sense.
makes absolutely perfect sense... you've
essentially stated my
demeanor
and general outlook on life.. i've found it to be very
healthy, the more you give yourself over to it the
less stress you
have...
the biggest obstacle, one which Jack certainly dealt with, is
overcoming
the desire for "more" for prestige, for attaining the
societorial
pie in the sky, elevated position, fame... something
brought
about by deeming one kind of living as lesser than others... to
overcome
it is to realize the pointlessness and at the same time
transcend
it to a state of daily bliss. to do
what brings you
happiness
regardless of environmental circumstances, imposed or
otherwise.
if you want to "change the world" change yourself 3 degrees
and
you'll find everything around you does a complete 180 and you see
things
in a whole new light.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:17:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization:
University of Maine
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version:
1.0
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>It
seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
>Generation,
except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im just
>misunderstanding
what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
>article?
i agree... on the whole it's nothing negative...
a bit confusing
if
anything, how much he says he reveled in it, then ends by saying it
was
more his mother's type of book...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:25:17 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version:
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Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
> It
seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
>
Generation, except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im just
>
misunderstanding what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
>
article?
>
~Nancy
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>
Sure-JK
Can
somebody post a copy of "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE" so I can see
what
all the fuss is about. I read Stone's
piece and don't think it
fits
that headline, "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE." Are you people
talking
about some other piece? --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:33:39 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Pinocchio.
In-Reply-To: <3489E759.4DC97EB2@scsn.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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morning
empty row
villas
green
green
hedges
barking
dogs
BEWARE THE DOG
day to day
barking
barking
maybe
a day
they 'll
stop it
thinking
me friend
---
Rinaldo
10th
dec 98
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:48:52 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Pinocchio.
MIME-Version:
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rinald,
are you meaning more than the name of the walt disney fable
animation?
duh,
mc
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
> morning
> empty row
>
> villas
> green
>
> green
> hedges
>
> barking
> dogs
>
> BEWARE THE DOG
> day to day
>
> barking
> barking
>
> maybe
> a day
>
> they 'll
> stop it
>
> thinking
> me friend
>
>
---
>
Rinaldo
>
10th dec 98
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:07:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
Comments:
To: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
In-Reply-To: <348ED07C.7406@bigmagic.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Al et
al-
Yes, exactly. The title didnt seem to
fit...glad to see that Im not the
only
confused one here...
~Nancy
On Wed,
10 Dec 1997, Al Aronowitz wrote:
>
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
>
>
> It seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
>
> Generation, except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im
just
>
> misunderstanding what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
>
> article?
>
> ~Nancy
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>
> Sure-JK
>
Can somebody post a copy of "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE" so I can
see
>
what all the fuss is about. I read
Stone's piece and don't think it
>
fits that headline, "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE." Are you people
>
talking about some other piece? --Al Aronowitz
> --
>
***************************************
> Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
>
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:09:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Flower Power
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Correct
me if Im wrong but beat was pre-flower power, right?...Otherwise,
after
having read the article again, it still seems like the author is in
admiration
of the Beat Generation...
~Nancy
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:18:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997121010240673@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version:
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B. G.,
May I
add your comments about Stone's article "American Dreamers: Melville
and
Kerouac" in Sunday's N.Y.Times to the document that has been reprinted
on
BookZen's Free Book Information Library?
Thanks.
jo
grant
By the
way Bill, what is the protocal about reprinting comments made on the
list?
When I read something that would provide insights to a book or
article
that is on BookZen, I'd like to share it with the librarians who
browse
BookZen regularly. Is there a problem?
>I'm
not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
>Kerouac,
it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
>his
art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
>and
others did before him. I agree with
Diane wholeheartedly that he
>never
found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
>impossibility
of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
>through
his work. How does one discover or
authenticate himself,
>except
by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
>national
identity, religion etc. In the end,
one's search for self may
>end
in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
>but
the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
>ideas
nonetheless.
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:25:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
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I
thought the article was trying to say, (not to clearly) that of the
two
books, that otr did not stand up, that it was interesting in
pushing certain current (at the time of his perry
without the perry
trip)
buttons but wasn't really there over time.
I might be confused
but it
was one of those damning with slight praise things.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:48:19 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: second beat mag?
Mime-Version:
1.0
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hey
beat-l'ers
does
any one know if the latest issue of Second Beat (the wsburroughs
tribute
issue as far as i know) has been released or
how i
can get in touch with the publishers (Camelia City books)?
thanks
derek
******************************************************************
Derek
Beaulieu
House
Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728
3rd Ave NW
Calgary,
Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph.
(403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove
literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:23:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)"
<jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: leaving the list.
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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hey
folks,
sorry to bug everyone about this but i
am having trouble getting
off of
the beat list. I'm going away for quite some time and i won't be
able to
answer any mail. Can someone refer me to a higher power so i can
unsubscribe?
thanks.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:04:07 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: todd edmondson
<tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: redemption
Mime-Version:
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i think
a couple of you have said some very interesting things about
kerouac's
search for redemption. i think if he
was searching for
redemption
in the authentication of national dreams, he was on the wrong
path
completely. true redemption, as has
been my own experience, comes not
in the
form of anything that we on earth can truly identify with, such as
"the
american dream" or anything like that, but in something far more
spiritual
than that which the eye has seen.
kerouac and other beats seemed
to look
for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
that--religions
created by man. in order to be redeemed
as a writer or a
human
being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
than
that. i believe with all my heart that
i have found that redemption
in
Christianity--not the Christianity that is found in many churches today,
where
people are condemned without compassion and judged as if man were
God. that sort of thought found much opposition
in the "beat movement",
and
understandably so. the christianity i
embrace does have an absolute
system
of right and wrong, but realizes that man, despite vain attempts to
attain
moralistic perfection, is hopelessly lost within his own existence.
only
the grace and mercy of a truly benevolent God can save man from his
situation--not
a god of laws but a God of love for all men.
i understand
that
this is an unpopular position, and i don't mean to be overly agressive
with my
"religion", especially my first time on this list. however, i feel
that
man's search for redemption is a serious topic and if i have any
insight,
i should contribute, however it may cause me to be perceived. all
i'm
asking is that if any of you are looking for some path to redemption,
try
this one. it's worked for me and many others, and despite its
perversions
at the hands of man, doesn't have to conform to the negative
connotations
placed on it throughout the ages.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:22:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:18:41 -0500
from
<jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sure,
you can add my comment if you like. As
far as Beat-l postings are concer
ned,
it's fine with me to reprint them so long as the author grants permission.
I think
my comment was more on Leon's and Diane's argument about authenticity.
I actually wrote a friend about the Stone
article and categorized it as "sour
grapes." Maybe I'll post that piece if the thread
continues.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:32:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:04:07 -0500
from
<tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Kerouac's
searching wasn't limited to a national idea like the American Dream.
As you rightly point out he also searched for
such redemption through establis
hed
religion -- Buddhism and Roman Catholicism.
There's also evidence that he
looked
for such redemption in nature, art, drugs, and friendship. Unfortunatel
y
nothing seemed to work for him for very long.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:36:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
> I
thought the article was trying to say, (not to clearly) that of the
> two
books, that otr did not stand up, that it was interesting in
>
pushing certain current (at the time of
his perry without the perry
>
trip) buttons but wasn't really there over time. I might be confused
>
but it was one of those damning with slight praise things.
>
patricia
i
really enjoyed the stories in the article.
they were kind of fun and
pulled
me in to where i felt i was there watching the events
transpire....but
when the articles shifted from story to criticism, i
think
that you are way to kind in saying "not so clearly" - the fog
around
the writer's point was far too thick for me to penetrate.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:39:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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todd
edmondson wrote:
>
> i
think a couple of you have said some very interesting things about
>
kerouac's search for redemption. i
think if he was searching for
>
redemption in the authentication of national dreams, he was on the wrong
>
path completely. true redemption, as
has been my own experience, comes not
> in
the form of anything that we on earth can truly identify with, such as
>
"the american dream" or anything like that, but in something far more
>
spiritual than that which the eye has seen.
kerouac and other beats seemed
> to
look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
>
that--religions created by man. in
order to be redeemed as a writer or a
>
human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
>
than that. i believe with all my heart
that i have found that redemption
> in
Christianity--not the Christianity that is found in many churches today,
>
where people are condemned without compassion and judged as if man were
>
God. that sort of thought found much
opposition in the "beat movement",
>
and understandably so. the christianity
i embrace does have an absolute
>
system of right and wrong, but realizes that man, despite vain attempts to
>
attain moralistic perfection, is hopelessly lost within his own existence.
>
only the grace and mercy of a truly benevolent God can save man from his
>
situation--not a god of laws but a God of love for all men. i understand
>
that this is an unpopular position, and i don't mean to be overly agressive
>
with my "religion", especially my first time on this list. however, i feel
>
that man's search for redemption is a serious topic and if i have any
>
insight, i should contribute, however it may cause me to be perceived. all
>
i'm asking is that if any of you are looking for some path to redemption,
>
try this one. it's worked for me and many others, and despite its
>
perversions at the hands of man, doesn't have to conform to the negative
>
connotations placed on it throughout the ages.
it
seems that it would be difficult to translate the type of redemption
i kind
of understand you hinting at to anything that would be events on
paper.....maybe
i'm wrong, but it sounds as though a person called to
write
would not find redemption.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:38:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Speakeasy
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
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For the
folks in my neck of the woods <Seattle> I thought this might be of
interest...
20
December @ 8pm @ The Speakeasy Cafe in Bell Town.... JACK SARGEANT,
featured
lecturer as part of "Naked Lens: Beat Cinema". With a screening of
both
PULL MY DAISY and COMMUNION ...
See
some of you there?
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Speakeasy
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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At
06:38 PM 12/10/97 EST, RoadSide6 wrote:
>both
PULL MY DAISY and COMMUNION ...
Would
this be "Wholly Communion?"
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:38:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
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> Al
Arnowitz wrote:
>
Can somebody post a copy of "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE" so I can
see
>
what all the fuss is about. I read
Stone's piece and don't think it
>
fits that headline, "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE." Are you people
>
talking about some other piece? --Al Aronowitz
There
is some confusion here between two threads.
"The Beat Movement Was
a
Failure" was an article whose URL was posted here by Alex Howard. The
article
appeared in his school newspaper. He
also posted an URL to go to
to read
his response to that article. Maybe he
can do that again for any
of you
who missed it. Most of the comments
about Stone's article are on
the
thread called "Stone on Kerouac."
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:40:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee"
<donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Henry Miller
In-Reply-To: <348ED399.37A9@together.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Just
wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
Henry
Miller. I know he was an influence on
Kerouac and that they almost
met in
BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
Cordially,
Don Lee
Fayetteville,
Ark.
"We
are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
full. But we are all potentially free. We can stop thinking of what we
have
failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
powers
that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
are
infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
imagination
is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
--Henry Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:14:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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>
RACE wrote:
> it
seems that it would be difficult to translate the type of redemption
> i
kind of understand you hinting at to anything that would be events on
>
paper.....maybe i'm wrong, but it sounds as though a person called to
>
write would not find redemption.
First
of all, I think the kind of redemption that Todd is referring to as
found
in Christianity, was there for Kerouac to accept throughout his
life in
the form of Catholicism. Particularly,
one could make a case
that
fruitlessness of one's efforts that Kerouac described so aptly in
several
works, his belief that all is vanity, all is suffering, all
ends in
death, can be construed in terms of Christianity and the Catholic
church
to be the nature place of man in human-ness, the state of man as
in a
place where he has fallen from grace.
This grace was however
restored
to man through Jesus, redemption is there through the simple act
of
belief. It's clear that Kerouac could
never accept this type of
redemption. However, what interests me about David reply
is the fact
that
Kerouac never found redemption in writing.
Perhaps he did seek to
do so
but it doesn't appear that writing alone can work out spiritual
pain. And if we go back to the
"authenticate" theme again, it seems more
possible
that one could authenticate oneself through writing than redeem
oneself. Any other thoughts on this topic?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:12:57 -0500
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
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Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly page updated!
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I
updated the page today and have a small bit of news about the future of
the
quarterly. Take care everybody! Paul...
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:59:21 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: That's what Michael Jackson said!
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Leon
said:
> If
someone asked me if I am beat, I would tell them to beat it.
>
Leon,
that's what Michael Jackson once said.
Then Al Yankovick (sp?)
said
eat it. So, that might be an
appropriate response as well! :-)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:12:35 -0500
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From: todd edmondson
<tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: redemption
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in
response to what diane said in response to what i said about redemption,
i agree
with her that someone such as kerouac could authenticate himself
through
writing. the way in which i would
define authentication would make
it
possible, through a long and maybe difficult process, to tap into
something
within in order to make something real of oneself. for kerouac
and
countless others, this something within would be writing. redemption
by this
process would be much harder--by my definition, impossible. in
order
to be redeemed, we have to be in a state that makes redemption
necessary. i think it would be impossible for someone
in this life-state
to
somehow pull hisself out of that situation.
redemption has to come from
without.
todd
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:12:31 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
However, what interests me about David reply is the fact
>
that Kerouac never found redemption in writing. Perhaps he did seek to
> do
so but it doesn't appear that writing alone can work out spiritual
>
pain. And if we go back to the
"authenticate" theme again, it seems more
>
possible that one could authenticate oneself through writing than redeem
>
oneself. Any other thoughts on this
topic?
> DC
well,
it seems to me, that living an authentic existence would include a
spiritual
dimension and spiritual pain would be a symptom of something
out of
kilter in terms of authenticity. my
hunch is that at some point
authenticity
and personal redemption overlap nearly completely. it
seems
to me that writing "could" provide this for folks -- and maybe
even
for Kerouac. What strikes me at the
moment as i touch fingers to
keys is
that perhaps Kerouac's difficulties were most associated with
finding
authenticity when he WASN'T writing. I
just finished Big Sur
this
morning and i had to think that the spiritual state of the author
while
writing -- especially given the perspective of the last page (Jack
always
seems to have a great last page doesn't he <grin>) is completely
different
from the spiritual state of the Jack described during the
narrative
of the Big Sur crack-up. So perhaps the
difficulty of finding
redemption
and authenticity in writing is that there is no ground to
stand
on between writings. But i'm just
typing out of my ass right now
and i
can't say i really have any idea what the truth is when it comes
to
notions of authenticity and redemption -- and if anyone has a good
handbook
for such matters please send them to me for Xmas!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:15:55 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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todd
edmondson wrote:
>
> in
response to what diane said in response to what i said about redemption,
> i
agree with her that someone such as kerouac could authenticate himself
>
through writing. the way in which i
would define authentication would make
> it
possible, through a long and maybe difficult process, to tap into
>
something within in order to make something real of oneself. for kerouac
>
and countless others, this something within would be writing. redemption
> by
this process would be much harder--by my definition, impossible. in
>
order to be redeemed, we have to be in a state that makes redemption
>
necessary. i think it would be
impossible for someone in this life-state
> to
somehow pull hisself out of that situation.
redemption has to come from
>
without.
>
todd
writing
is something that comes from within and without.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:45:21 -0500
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From: main user
<mparsons@PARTECHSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
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> it
seems that it would be difficult to translate the type of redemption
> i
kind of understand you hinting at to anything that would be events on
>
paper.....maybe i'm wrong, but it sounds as though a person called to
>
write would not find redemption.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
I don't
know if we find it or not, but, as with all things, it's the attmept
that
truly matters... the act of writing, of puttting it all on the page, is
in some
ways, the saving grace of all scribblers... it portrays the
reflections
of heaven and hell in us all.
Mick
"When
I was young, I belived in God, but as I got older, it was my desire to
see God
that kept me from seeing what was here on Earth"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:21:16 -0500
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Some of the Dharma reading itinerary
posted!
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I have
posted the complete program of the St. Mark's Poetry Project reading
of Some
of the Dharma (thanks to the Kerouac Estate for this info!)on The
Kerouac
Quarterly web page. To read, go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks!
Paul....
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:07:42 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: redemption
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In a
message dated 97-12-10 22:59:13 EST, David wrote:
<<
But i'm just typing out of my ass right now
and i can't say i really have any idea what
the truth is >>
Thank
you, David, for putting voice to a thought that (I'm sure) many of us
harbor
about ourselves. As for myself, any
time you see a post from DCard on
the
List, rest assured I've typed it out of my ass. If ignorance is bliss, I
am
TRULY blissed.
Dennis
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:19:41 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some of the Dharma reading itinerary
posted!
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I have
the complete program taped to my wall. It was quite a time,
folks...
~Nancy
On Wed,
10 Dec 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
> I
have posted the complete program of the St. Mark's Poetry Project reading
> of
Some of the Dharma (thanks to the Kerouac Estate for this info!)on The
>
Kerouac Quarterly web page. To read, go to:
>
>
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
>
>
> Thanks!
Paul....
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:27:47 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
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DCardKJHS
wrote: If ignorance is bliss, I
> am
TRULY blissed.
>
Dennis
typing
assholes. ON the tape "spare ass annie" is williams' bit about
the man
who taught his ass hole to talk.
Between laying down and
laughing
so hard it hurts when i hear it, is
depression because it is
such a
perfect description of my old boss at city hall. charming, urbane
and
utteryly souless. I personally believe
in redemption without
christianity
and think that writing is a shock wave seen from the big
bang. is there redemption only from outside of
oneself, not for me , my
redemption
is a pepperment of cum and tears.
p
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:27:28 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
DCardKJHS wrote: If ignorance is bliss,
I
>
> am TRULY blissed.
>
> Dennis
>
typing assholes. ON the tape "spare ass annie" is williams' bit about
>
the man who taught his ass hole to talk.
Between laying down and
>
laughing so hard it hurts when i hear it,
is depression because it is
>
such a perfect description of my old boss at city hall. charming, urbane
>
and utteryly souless. I personally
believe in redemption without
>
christianity and think that writing is a shock wave seen from the big
>
bang. is there redemption only from
outside of oneself, not for me , my
>
redemption is a pepperment of cum and tears.
> p
ROTFLMAO
- i was just thinking we could make a quick transition to the
asshole
that talked as a new WSB thread!!!!!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:53:43 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
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Subject: Re: redemption
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
>
Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
>
>
> DCardKJHS wrote: If ignorance is
bliss, I
>
> > am TRULY blissed.
>
> > Dennis
>
> typing assholes. ON the tape "spare ass annie" is williams' bit
about
>
> the man who taught his ass hole to talk.
Between laying down and
>
> laughing so hard it hurts when i hear it,
is depression because it is
>
> such a perfect description of my old boss at city hall. charming, urbane
>
> and utteryly souless. I personally
believe in redemption without
>
> christianity and think that writing is a shock wave seen from the big
>
> bang. is there redemption only
from outside of oneself, not for me , my
>
> redemption is a pepperment of cum and tears.
>
> p
>
>
ROTFLMAO - i was just thinking we could make a quick transition to the
>
asshole that talked as a new WSB thread!!!!!
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
so
funny, i was remembering when i first joined the list, someone
challenged
that there was any thing spiritual or redemptive in williams
work
and i have always found it so full of spirituality and redemption.
the ass
hole eventually took over, closing the eyes and tongue to will.
it
killed the brain stem connecting the what mind thought and felt, and
left it
no longer able to speak from his mouth.
by letting the ass hole
do all
the talking, the ass hole eventually killed the man. left the man
with
dead eyes. I have always understood
this as that expressing the
truth
somehow allowed the soul to live.
p
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:15:54 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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>
RACE wrote:
>
well, it seems to me, that living an authentic existence would include
> a
>
spiritual dimension and spiritual pain would be a symptom of something
>
out of kilter in terms of authenticity.
my hunch is that at some point
>
authenticity and personal redemption overlap nearly completely. it
>
seems to me that writing "could" provide this for folks -- and maybe
>
even for Kerouac. What strikes me at
the moment as i touch fingers to
>
keys is that perhaps Kerouac's difficulties were most associated with
>
finding authenticity when he WASN'T writing.
I just finished Big Sur
>
this morning and i had to think that the spiritual state of the author
>
while writing -- especially given the perspective of the last page
>
(Jack
>
always seems to have a great last page doesn't he <grin>) is completely
>
different from the spiritual state of the Jack described during the
>
narrative of the Big Sur crack-up. So
perhaps the difficulty of
>
finding
>
redemption and authenticity in writing is that there is no ground to
>
stand on between writings."
Well,
for me, your reasoning here jumped a bit but brought up several
good
things. First of all, that spiritual
pain is a sign that things are
out of
kilter in terms of authenticity. You
also should consider that
spiritual
pain might not be a negative. It may be
instead a fundamental
state
of human-ness, in which man is in pain and man is not in pain.
Both
exist together as fundamental traits of being in the world; one
might
or might not be advantageous over the other.
You reminded me of a
quote
from William Barrett's "What is Existentialism?" where he writes,
"Authenticity
is only a question of modification, slight but profound,
within
our everyday existence which places this existence in a new and
altogether
different perspective."
As far
as Big Sur goes, I felt the ending was a big let-down. It's this
bouncing
back and forth from despair to joy again.
Kerouac writes,
"...The
corner of the yard where Tyke is buried will be a new and
fragrant
shrine making my home more homelike somehow--On soft spring
nights
I'll stand in the yard under the stars--Something good will come
out of
things yet--And it will be golden and eternal just like
that--There's
no need to say another word." Of
all the endings to all of
Kerouac's
books I felt like this one was the least sincere and almost
thrown
on as a last minute attempt to give the book a happy ending.
After
having read Big Sur we know he is on an emotional roller-coaster
that
will not stop long in this peaceful and contented place.
DC
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:29:47 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Big Sur - separating the author from the
character Re: redemption
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
> As
far as Big Sur goes, I felt the ending was a big let-down. It's this
>
bouncing back and forth from despair to joy again. Kerouac writes,
>
"...The corner of the yard where Tyke is buried will be a new and
>
fragrant shrine making my home more homelike somehow--On soft spring
>
nights I'll stand in the yard under the stars--Something good will come
>
out of things yet--And it will be golden and eternal just like
>
that--There's no need to say another word." Of all the endings to all of
>
Kerouac's books I felt like this one was the least sincere and almost
>
thrown on as a last minute attempt to give the book a happy ending.
>
After having read Big Sur we know he is on an emotional roller-coaster
>
that will not stop long in this peaceful and contented place.
> DC
i think
the ending requires the reader to recognize the distinction
between
the author and the character over time.
the incidents that are
the
extremes of the crack-up are not occuring at the time of the
writing. in expressing the crack-up the author is
acting in an almost
opposite
perspective from the cracked-up character.
it takes a pretty
together
person to tell the truth about such incidents (as i think Levi
mentioned
before). As i read it, the last portion
was the author's
voice
as opposed to the cracked up voice. It
reminded me in a way of
the
redemptive writing of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
writing
about it is itself a redemptive or at least spiritual act.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:56:59 -0800
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From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
i
heartily disagree. redemption can only
come from within for that is where
the
spirit lives and only the spirit can be aware that there is such a thing
as
redemption (although, not having read the previous posts, i'm not sure
how
it's being defined). all that is in the
universe is in the soul, the
soul
redeems itself because it a part of that single universal spirit which
is the
diaphane, the ether, that is the "subsatnce" from which all things
tangible
and intangible are born.
peace,
sherri
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:28:33 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from
the character Re:
redemption
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At
11:29 PM 12/10/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>It
reminded me in a way of the redemptive writing
>of
Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
>writing
about it is itself a redemptive or at least
>spiritual
act.
A quote
from _Big Sur_:
"--Long
nights simply thinking about the usefulness
of that
little wire scourer, those little yellow copper
things
you buy in supermarkets for 10 cents, all to
me
infinitely more interesting than the stupid and
senseless
'Steppenwolf' novel in the shack which
I read
with a shrug, this old fart reflecting the 'conformity'
of
today and all the while he thought he was a big
Nietzsche,
old imitator of Dostoevsky 50 years too late
(he
feels tormented in a 'personal hell' he calls it
because
he doesnt like what other people like!)--"
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Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:29:38 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from
the character Re:
redemption
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M.
Cakebread wrote:
>
> At
11:29 PM 12/10/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>
>
>It reminded me in a way of the redemptive writing
>
>of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
>
>writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least
>
>spiritual act.
>
> A
quote from _Big Sur_:
>
>
"--Long nights simply thinking about the usefulness
> of
that little wire scourer, those little yellow copper
>
things you buy in supermarkets for 10 cents, all to
> me
infinitely more interesting than the stupid and
>
senseless 'Steppenwolf' novel in the shack which
> I
read with a shrug, this old fart reflecting the 'conformity'
> of
today and all the while he thought he was a big
>
Nietzsche, old imitator of Dostoevsky 50 years too late
>
(he feels tormented in a 'personal hell' he calls it
>
because he doesnt like what other people like!)--"
i
thought this was hilarious cuz while the settings are different the
story
is basically the same -- harry haller or jack -- same trip
basically.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:38:31 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: redemption
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kerouac
and other beats seemed
> to
look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
>
that--religions created by man. in
order to be redeemed as a writer or a
>
human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
>
than that.
can you
explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
you
feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
religion
would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
claiming
to be the only one.
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
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second
of all,
>
something in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
>
stated something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a
formula on the
>
lifestyle and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where to
>
begin to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat."
can any of
> you give me a clue as to what "truly
beat" is? i've considered the
>
impossibility of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
there
is nothing more dangerous than definitions. they limit you to the
smallest
part of what you are.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:52:18 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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THE
ORIGINAL american take on redemption
redemption
comes from within, only knowable to the individual, and yet as
individuals
belong to the species of man, even this is questionalble
-anne
hutchinson, thrown out of massacusetts bay colony for deciding the
middlemen
(ie authority male figures) we're needed for a direct connection to
the
starry dyanamo at night.
she
died a horrible death.
-emerson,
thoreau, margaret fuller pick up the ball, adding that one can learn
to see
from a different perspective, and be redeemed inside by a connection with
nature
(inside/outside but still the individual)
organized
religion: takes all direct experience away and deadens it with dogma.
their
are days in shich i go to corner store and redemption center, and give my
beer
bottles another round of incarnation.
feeling
puckish
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:59:59 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
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to
explicate my rather cavalier post, i was talking of the inside/outside
american
take on redemption, also taking into account where the inside
knowledge
first comes from.
the
transcendentalists were the first organized (loosely) literary group that
looked
to the east for validation of their experiements and experiences.
and the
beat goes on....
mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:59:29 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> to
explicate my rather cavalier post, i was talking of the inside/outside
>
american take on redemption, also taking into account where the inside
>
knowledge first comes from.
>
the transcendentalists were the first organized (loosely) literary group that
>
looked to the east for validation of their experiements and experiences.
>
and the beat goes on....
> mc
>
>
>
the
internal includes the external and the external includes the
internal
one of the grand mysteries of being.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:46:26 -0500
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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This is
interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
and he
said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
Jack
Kerouac.
I then
remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
Road"
came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
enrolled
in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
attended.
The
book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
Marilyn
Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good
match, a beautiful woman
who
liked to drink as much as Jack did.
But
more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:25:15 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from
the character Re:
redemption
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>
RACE wrote:
>
> i
think the ending requires the reader to recognize the distinction
>
between the author and the character over time. the incidents that are
>
the extremes of the crack-up are not occuring at the time of the
>
writing. in expressing the crack-up the
author is acting in an almost
>
opposite perspective from the cracked-up character. it takes a pretty
>
together person to tell the truth about such incidents (as i think Levi
>
mentioned before). As i read it, the
last portion was the author's
>
voice as opposed to the cracked up voice.
It reminded me in a way of
>
the redemptive writing of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
>
writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least spiritual act.
I don't
disagree with your position that one must be in a period of
stability
to write about the instability. My
point is that the ending is
thrown
at you really less than a page from where the character is still
in a
highly agitated state where in his mind he sees the garbage pit
being
dug as a grave. As I see it, the whole
book is memory of events
including
the ending. The author doesn't change
voices at the end in a
way
that says "that was the character then and this is me now." He falls
asleep
and when he wakes up, everything is washed away and he is "normal"
again.
Certainly his perspective is altered at the end, but it is a
sudden
darkness to light scenario. It is also
an ending that says "I'm
going
home to mother and everything will be all right."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:16:22 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from
the character Re:
redemption
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
> RACE wrote:
>
>
>
> i think the ending requires the reader to recognize the distinction
>
> between the author and the character over time. the incidents that are
>
> the extremes of the crack-up are not occuring at the time of the
>
> writing. in expressing the
crack-up the author is acting in an almost
>
> opposite perspective from the cracked-up character. it takes a pretty
>
> together person to tell the truth about such incidents (as i think Levi
>
> mentioned before). As i read it,
the last portion was the author's
>
> voice as opposed to the cracked up voice.
It reminded me in a way of
>
> the redemptive writing of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
>
> writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least spiritual act.
>
> I
don't disagree with your position that one must be in a period of
>
stability to write about the instability.
My point is that the ending is
>
thrown at you really less than a page from where the character is still
> in
a highly agitated state where in his mind he sees the garbage pit
>
being dug as a grave. As I see it, the
whole book is memory of events
>
including the ending. The author
doesn't change voices at the end in a
>
way that says "that was the character then and this is me now." He
falls
>
asleep and when he wakes up, everything is washed away and he is
"normal"
>
again. Certainly his perspective is altered at the end, but it is a
>
sudden darkness to light scenario. It
is also an ending that says "I'm
>
going home to mother and everything will be all right."
> DC
ok i
may have to say uncle on this. because
you're right that the
transition
to the last page is so abrupt as to be almost silly. that
didn't
make sense to me -- in fact, i found myself having to shift gears
and
re-read sentences over and over again on the last page b/c the
transition
was so abrupt. but having read the last
page over again
several
times separated from the previous pages a bit, the other
interpretation
made much more sense to me. It's really
difficult
sometimes
for me -- in reading Kerouac -- to tell when he's speaking for
the
Kerouac of the moment in the story and when he's speaking for the
Kerouac
writing the story with the perspective of some time.
i'll
say uncle to the fact that the character of Jack has a sappy
ending. as for the author Kerouac, it seems he shows
a bit of the
notion
that writing through an ordeal - in all its horrors - is a way of
....not
transcending but something close to that i'd guess....the
ordeal.
on
another note, at completely unrelated - i was taken a bit by the fact
that at
the beginning of the copy of Big Sur I was reading was this
statement
about the Legend of D. and that it is a "comedy". I think
that
perhaps it is difficult for us to see the comedy sometimes b/c we
only
want to see the tragedy.
and
Diane ... it seems that so many of your comments about Kerouac come
together
in a few themes that i hope someday you can put together a
wonderful
book of your thoughts on Jack. And
since I always see the
opposite
side of those coins - i'll heckle in admiration!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:45:21 -0500
Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "D. Patrick Hornberger"
<"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>
Organization:
EASTWIND PUBLISHING
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
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Donald
G. Jr. Lee wrote:
>
>
Just wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
>
Henry Miller. I know he was an
influence on Kerouac and that they almost
>
met in BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
>
>
Cordially,
>
Don Lee
>
Fayetteville, Ark.
>
>
"We are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
>
full. But we are all potentially
free. We can stop thinking of what we
>
have failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
>
powers that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
>
are infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
>
imagination is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
> --Henry Miller
Good
thought--
Miller
was clearly influencial to the Beats--as an old guy myself who
met
Ginsberg, Corso etc. (in Paris) my/our generataion was very much
into
reading Miller, at the time, much of his stuff waass banned in
US...but
most every college type could find at least one copy... the
ones
published by Olympia aka: Obelisk Press, Paris.
In my
mind I don't think enough is said about Miller's influence on the
Beats
or for that matter--Miller's own talent as a writer is often
underplayed
(probably becasue he wrote smut (for the time it was called
that
anyway).His influence may have been more cultural than literary,
but
Miller ddi write from the hip(heart) just like JK.
I dont
remember where, but I recall JK, mentioning Miller's writing at
some
lenghth.yes something yto do with Big Sur--but he comments on his
writing
as well.If anyone knows write me.
Patrick
eastwind@erols.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:46:48 -0500
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<henkel@wmich.edu>
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From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization:
OVPR
Subject: City Lights Books
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Beat-L'ers;
Just
FYI, the City Lights bookstore homepage is back on line.
http://www.citylights.com/CLstore.html
Scott
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:09:48 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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RACE
--- wrote:
>
the internal includes the external and the external includes the
>
internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>
>
_____
if i am
me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
who
is the
walrus?large mammals want to know.
hi dave
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:30:00 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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I had a
backchannell that kids me about having my tongue tied by a tongue
lashing
from Big Daddy Bill that makes very funny references to war happy
clansmen
in cliques.
Truth
is that I considered coming to the defense of my thoughts on the
subject
of authentication of self vs concern about our cultures and their
dreams.
I decided to leave it alone after the subject moved on to redemption
of the
soul, or has anyone suggested redemption of the american dream as
well?
While I
greatly admire your lucid reasoning as well as Diane's, you guys
haven't
convinced me at all that Jack felt that authentication or redemption
of his
life or his soul depended upon the drubbing that America dreaming was
getting
from America dealing with the dirty business of survival and power.
Yes he
liked to write about both and hinted many ways to the influence of
one
upon the other myriad facets and sometimes paradoxically appearing
details.
Yes his attention frequently roamed from one aspect to another of
the
vast universe that are our daily experiences of life. Still I have not
seen
one instance of where he ties in authentication of self with the goings
on in
the American dream.
It
seems to me that we are looking at our use of words that denote richly
complex
mixtures of realities and imaginary descriptions of loosely
"defined"
conceptualizations. phantasies,
People authenticate their american identity
when they give their lives in
war
with declared enemies of the state. It has nevertheless happened that
some
prisoners of war found more in common with their guards than with their
nation. When two catholics kill each other ina war
of their nations, does
that
authenticate theit religious identities, their national identities, the
identities
of their selves? Many eagle scouts have authenticated their scout
credo
that way. Many writers have authenticated their identity as writers by
the
work they produced. Jack Keouac authenticated himself as a writer who
tilled
the soil of the american landscape among other places that he could
find to
search for any signs of life, mindless and mindfull action. It still
seems
to me that for matters of the soul he seemed to reach to metaphysical
testimonies
that transcended national dreams or realities.
Arguments
are won by one side or another. Reflecting upon our understanding
of
things only stimulates us to further explorations, hopefully to be able
to see
more clearly in the grey areas of the
mind where the perspective of
others
brings more light as well as creates new shadows. Until the mind
becomes
a well lit place. Would that be redemption? But when anyone starts
telling
me that they know what I must do or think in order to find
redemption,
then we do have an argument on our hands.
Unredeemed
and in no need of authentication
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Wednesday, December 10, 1997 7:21 AM
Subject:
Re: Stone on Kerouac
>I'm
not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
>Kerouac,
it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
>his
art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
>and
others did before him. I agree with
Diane wholeheartedly that he
>never
found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
>impossibility
of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
>through
his work. How does one discover or
authenticate himself,
>except
by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
>national
identity, religion etc. In the end,
one's search for self may
>end
in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
>but
the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
>ideas
nonetheless.
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:33:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu"
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization:
Calgary Free-Net
Subject: j.r. saul and thoreau & US nation
state and kerouac's escape, etc
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beat-l'ers
and not...
just
thought that i would add two bits abt trancendentalists (esp thoreau)
and
some comments that john ralston saul (anybody out there heard of him?
he's a
cultural and political theporist and author of _the doubter's
companion_,
_voltaire's bastards_, and his latest book is called
_reflections
of a siamese twin: canada at the end of the 20th century_, or
close
to that anyway...) ANYWAY - he was mentioning that Canada is the
only
true N.American state (which brought some chuckles from the audience,
lemme
tell you) and then he proceeded to say:
USA =
the great european NATION ( a la rousseau and the NATIONSTATE),
peopl+++e as state, one people united,
etc
(in his opinion the US doesnt recognze
this as they are too
consumed
with the thoreau idea of "walden" which is actually a romanticist
idea of
nature as "backdrop" and man as the conquerer of nature...)
EUROPE
= has abondon the Nationstate, for something out of the middle ages
of recognizing differences...
CANADA
= "united states", that is, it truely is an undefinable "society
of
overlap" and it when those
overlap occur that the country is best
defined...
unlike the US, in canada, because of
the vast oppressiveness of
the
landscape (which so many of us try to ignore for some reason...)
art=landscape=sex
(that is the landscape informs the way we carry on our
lives
and ourselves and informs the art that we produce...)
discuss
just a few thoughts.
derek
On Thu,
11 Dec 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> to
explicate my rather cavalier post, i was talking of the inside/outside
>
american take on redemption, also taking into account where the inside
>
knowledge first comes from.
>
the transcendentalists were the first organized (loosely) literary group that
>
looked to the east for validation of their experiements and experiences.
>
and the beat goes on....
> mc
******************************************************************
Derek
Beaulieu
House
Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728
3rd Ave NW
Calgary,
Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph.
(403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove
literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:33:08 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Tara Lynn Waters
<watert4@RPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
Comments:
cc: kombat@rice.edu
i don't
want to tackle this question, defining "truly beat", because it is an
impossible ideal. there are no formulas for living only that you be oneself,
be self-aware, self-understanding, open-eyed
and open-eared and honest. for
each person this is different, it comes at a
different time, it manifests
itself differently. yet i'll say this: to be truly beat, if this might be a
possibility is to be all of those things and
more. who is to say what all must
come together in your life to achieve
this? not i. and for me especially,
young and still learning so much, fain to call
myself beat when in reality am i
not only an admirer, a follower of sorts who
takes these brilliant minds of the
past and attempts to revitalize them in the
future not as beat but as a part of
me which can never be called beat, whatever
that may be. see, it is losing
sight of the magickal horizons that kerouac,
ginsberg and burroughs laid out
before us to try to confine it with
definition.
forever
changing, evolving, open-ended and free.
tara
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:05:45 -0500
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From: todd edmondson <tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <199712111611.LAA29553@pike.sover.net>
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I AM,
COO-COO-CA-CHOO
todd
At
11:09 AM 12/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>RACE
--- wrote:
>
>>
the internal includes the external and the external includes the
>>
internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>>
>>
_____
>
>if
i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
>
who
>is
the walrus?large mammals want to know.
>hi
dave
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:09:54 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:52:18 +0000
from
<country@SOVER.NET>
On Thu,
11 Dec 1997 06:52:18 +0000 Marie Countryman said:
>THE
ORIGINAL american take on redemption
>redemption
comes from within, only knowable to the individual, and yet as
>individuals
belong to the species of man, even this is questionalble
>-anne
hutchinson, thrown out of massacusetts bay colony for deciding the
>middlemen
(ie authority male figures) we're needed for a direct connection to
>the
starry dyanamo at night.
>she
died a horrible death.
>-emerson,
thoreau, margaret fuller pick up the ball, adding that one can learn
>to
see from a different perspective, and be redeemed inside by a connection
>with
>nature
(inside/outside but still the individual)
>organized
religion: takes all direct experience away and deadens it with dogma.
>their
are days in shich i go to corner store and redemption center, and give my
>beer
bottles another round of incarnation.
>feeling
puckish
>mc
Yes,
this American tradition is distinct from the Roman Catholic position -- th
at
Redemption (via Christ) comes from without -- divine intervention in time or
human events.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:13:03 -0500
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From: todd edmondson
<tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <348F7C57.D5A@eunet.yu>
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i'm
sorry if i didn't explain myself clearly the first time. i didn't mean
to lump
all religions but Christianity into this huge pile and say they
fail
while Christianity triumphs. my point
was that any religious system,
including
Christianity, fails miserably when it comes to spreading
redemption. only God can do that, and religion does
little more than talk
about
it. i was implying that in order to
find redemption, it is
necessary
to find it outside of the organized church, in a more personal
relationship
to God. this can be found throughout
literature (in the
stories
of flannery o'connor, particularly), and is a profound truth which,
i
believe, is worth looking into. while
my faith owes everything it is to
the
teachings of Christ, i don't feel it is necessary to subscribe to the
doctrines
of any modern-day church, especially because of the fact that
even
the denominations within Christianity can't seem to agree on much of
anything. it's a search that neither your church
leaders, your peers, nor
your
family can make for you, and in the end it's on your (or my) shoulders
what we
do. that was my point, however confusingly it was worded.
At
09:38 PM 12/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>kerouac
and other beats seemed
>>
to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
>>
that--religions created by man. in
order to be redeemed as a writer or a
>>
human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
>>
than that.
>
>can
you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
>you
feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
>religion
would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
>claiming
to be the only one.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:23:54 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:46:26 -0500
from
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
On Thu,
11 Dec 1997 09:46:26 -0500 Richard Wallner said:
>This
is interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
>and
he said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
>Jack
Kerouac.
>
>I
then remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
>Road"
came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
>enrolled
in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
>attended.
>
>The
book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
>Marilyn
Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good
match, a beautiful woman
>who
liked to drink as much as Jack did.
>
>But
more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
Ahhh....hum.....I
think that was ANOTHER Jack...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:19:09 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: redemption
MIME-Version:
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> if
i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
> who
> is
the walrus?large mammals want to know.
> hi
dave
PAUL!!!
The Walrus was Paul.
looking
out from my glass onion,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:41 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Musical Instruments from the Tomb of
Tutankhamun.
In-Reply-To: <3489E759.4DC97EB2@scsn.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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The
Trumpet of KING TUTANKHAMUN
The
recording of the sound of
the
trumpet was made in 1939 in
the
Egyptian Museum in Cairo for
BBC
radio.
The
recording is so unique because
since
their discovery the trumpets
have
only been played on very few
occasions.
Considering their fragile
state
of preservation, it is very
unlikely
that any more attempts will
ever be
made again.
"Owing
to its fragility, the original
silver
trumpet has been played only
twice,
in the spring of 1939, when
a
modern mouthpiece was inserted.
At the
first attempt, the trumpet was
shattered
but it was restored immediately
and
survived the eventual broadcast.
The
notes obtained by the military trumpeter,
after
the restoration, were c, e, g and c."
(From:
L. Manniche, "Musical Instuments
from
the Tomb of Tutankhamun", Oxford 1976, pp. 7-13).
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
point
yr browser to web site &
u can
download trombut.wav, the
ancient
trumpet sound:
http.//www.rai.it/grr/golem/maniaci/regra/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:43:00 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu"
<henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization:
OVPR
Subject: Re: redemption
MIME-version:
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Yes,
later the walrus was Paul, but "no, you're not," said little Nickola
according
to the jacket sleeve. All we really know is that if you're a boy,
you've
let your face grow long and if you're a girl, you've let your
knickers
down. Everyone is an eggman.
Scott
-----Original
Message-----
From: Adrien Begrand
[SMTP:vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 3:19 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: redemption
Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
> if
i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman,
than
> who
> is
the walrus?large mammals want to know.
> hi
dave
PAUL!!!
The Walrus was Paul.
looking
out from my glass onion,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:47:31 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: redemption
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 97-12-11 13:26:53 EST, you write:
<<
my point was that any religious system,
including Christianity, fails miserably when
it comes to spreading
redemption. >>
anais
nin said,
"art
is my only religion..." and "i only believe in poetry...i only
believe
in poetry"
personally,
i can handle that.
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:41:30 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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all are
holy.
AG
quoted
mc,
december whatevah....
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:47:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Speakeasy
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In a
message dated 97-12-10 23:09:01 EST, you write:
<<
>both PULL MY DAISY and COMMUNION ...
Would this be "Wholly Communion?"
Mike
>>
Methinks,
yes... however the listing in WORDSCAPE Magazine had only the title
COMMUNION...
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:34:54 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joey Mellott
<peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>
Subject: A certain Ginsberg picture
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On the
episode of "The Fifties" on Friday, one of the photos they showed
was a
spectacular picture of Ginsberg standing in a city with a nuclear
bomb
going off in the corner, with him pointing at it in an "I warned you"
pose. Has anyone else seen this picture. Is there a copy of it online
somewhere?
Thanks
Joey
Mellott : poet, writer, and progressive subversive
(peyotecoyote@iah.com)
"I
want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom,
I want goodness. I want sin." - Aldous Huxley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Timothy Franklin Thomas
<tt324696@OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <348F7C57.D5A@eunet.yu>
MIME-Version:
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On the
rational level THE religion would be the one respectful of all
differences.
Unfortunately all religions were created by man and man is a
long
way from being tolerant. Redemption is alas only a fabricated concept
that
man uses to excuse his indescretions. The search for redemption,
a human
flaw of which I also possess, can be satisfied by the smallest of
acts.
It is up to the one in need of redemption to realize what will
satisfy
his conscious. It can certainly be something as simple as Patricia
says
"cum and tears." Jack could find no satisfaction, Allen on the
otherhand
found it in abundance.
On Wed,
10 Dec 1997, Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
kerouac and other beats seemed
>
> to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
>
> that--religions created by man. in
order to be redeemed as a writer or a
>
> human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
>
> than that.
>
>
can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
>
you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
>
religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
>
claiming to be the only one.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:53:17 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: A certain Ginsberg picture
MIME-Version:
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I know
what picture you're talking about. It's actually Allen standing
in
front of and pointing at a projection of a photo of the Drake Hotel
in San
Francisco. It was his inspiration for the 'Moloch' section of
Howl.
The photo was taken by Harry Redl in 1959, and can be found in the
Holy
Soul Jelly Roll liner notes.
Adrien
Joey
Mellott wrote:
>
> On
the episode of "The Fifties" on Friday, one of the photos they showed
>
was a spectacular picture of Ginsberg standing in a city with a nuclear
>
bomb going off in the corner, with him pointing at it in an "I warned you"
>
pose. Has anyone else seen this
picture. Is there a copy of it online
>
somewhere?
>
>
Thanks
>
Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and progressive subversive
>
(peyotecoyote@iah.com)
>
"I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom,
> I want goodness. I want sin." - Aldous Huxley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:31:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
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Donald
G. Jr. Lee wrote:
>
>
Just wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
>
Henry Miller. I know he was an
influence on Kerouac and that they almost
>
met in BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
i
really was hoping that they'd meet at Big Sur as i was reading the
book. there was something about that little
interaction that seemed to
me to
provide some kind of hope of Jack connecting with HM and finding
some
wisdom about how to survive aging and whatnot from him. several
times
as things were going from bad to worse i found myself saying --
really
a shame he didn't have a chance to meet Henry Miller.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
>
>
Cordially,
>
Don Lee
>
Fayetteville, Ark.
>
>
"We are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
>
full. But we are all potentially
free. We can stop thinking of what we
>
have failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
>
powers that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
>
are infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
>
imagination is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
>
--Henry Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:51:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper
<coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SOL.3.95.971210193923.14165A-100000@comp>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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aAt
19:40 10/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Just
wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
>Henry
Miller. I know he was an influence on
Kerouac and that they almost
>met
in BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
>
>Cordially,
>Don
Lee
>Fayetteville,
Ark.
>
>"We
are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
>full. But we are all potentially free. We can stop thinking of what we
>have
failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
>powers
that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
>are
infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
>imagination
is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
>
--Henry Miller
>
I have
the book "Conversations With Henry Miller". In it, he makes a few
comments
about Kerouac. He says Kerouac has a "marvelous natural verbal
facility,
though I think it could stand a bit of disciplining." he says
Dharma
Bums is his favourite. He also sites Burroughs as a man of talent,
though
some of his stuff "makes him sick".
Glenn
C.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Life
does not imitate art, it imitates bad TV.
--
Woody Allen
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:09:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption and
clickityclickitytraintracks
In-Reply-To: <199712111943.OAA24953@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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>mc,
december whatevah....
MC,
I'm
looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
Chicago
layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
dates
and times still on?
I'm
going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
long-time
friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
city
and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
Itdoesn't
leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
are
stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
I, or
(hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
poet
from the crowd.
Scanning
the crowd looking for.... I know, I
know. You'll be wearing a
poem in
your lapel.
With a
little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
friend
has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
friendin
Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems do get
around.
jo
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:47:55 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
Reply
to message from rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG of Thu, 11 Dec
>
>This
is interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
>and
he said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
>Jack
Kerouac.
>
>I
then remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
>Road"
came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
>enrolled
in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
>attended.
>
>The
book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
>Marilyn
Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good
match, a beautiful woman
>who
liked to drink as much as Jack did.
>
>But
more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
Did
anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
I can't
be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as the
leading
gal who had these enormous thumbs. But
anyway....of what I read of
the
book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story to the
leading
character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about how
they
met hitchhiking...pretty funny. This
post reminded me of that book.
Diane.
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:50:46 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
Reply
to message from country@SOVER.NET of Thu, 11 Dec
>
>RACE
--- wrote:
>
>>
the internal includes the external and the external includes the
>>
internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>>
>>
_____
>
>if
i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
>
who
>is
the walrus?large mammals want to know.
>hi
dave
"I
am I, he is he, she is she, and you are a horse." Croatian saying my
grandmother
used to say, but I don't remebmer the Croatian (and if I did, I
couldn't
spell it). :)
Diane.
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:11:03 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
MIME-Version:
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Diane
M. Homza wrote:
>
>
>
Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
> I
can't be more vague)....
sure
you could be more vague! Did anybody
read the book ... can't
remember
the title it was paperback and i bought it in that bookstore in
Boulder
-- you know the one -- i think it was green (the book not the
bookstore
- the bookstore was orange)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. i'll be quiet now!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:13:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption and
clickityclickitytraintracks
MIME-Version:
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jo
grant wrote:
>
>
>mc, december whatevah....
>
>
MC,
>
>
I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
>
Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
>
dates and times still on?
>
>
I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
>
long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
>
city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
>
>
Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
>
are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
> I,
or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
>
poet from the crowd.
>
>
Scanning the crowd looking for.... I
know, I know. You'll be wearing a
>
poem in your lapel.
>
>
With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
>
friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
>
friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems
do get around.
>
> jo
>
this sounds
fun!!!!
anybody
gonna be in Phoenix over the Holidays?????
i won't
give a BEAT IQ test cuz i'd probably flunk it.
i won't
have a lapel - so i'll have to stick a poem somewhere else
<grin>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:23:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
09:11 PM 12/11/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>Diane
M. Homza wrote:
>>
>>
>>
Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
>>
I can't be more vague)....
>
>sure
you could be more vague! Did anybody
read the book ... can't
>remember
the title it was paperback and i bought it in that bookstore in
>Boulder
-- you know the one -- i think it was green (the book not the
>bookstore
- the bookstore was orange)
_Even
Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
(cousin
of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:11:51 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino
<jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971209105728.23884A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
MIME-Version:
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what
was a failure was the ersatz madisonavenue/timemagazine conscription
of the 'beat
movement' - it failed to hear to respect and to understand the
new
voices that spoke into the hollow void left by the wartime
propagandahowl
when the boys came home, and it failed to confront its own
postwar
meaningless chromecar cocktail and cookingmachine suburban
imperative
of 'time to have babies again - we beat the fuckers'
--
bye for
now,
j o h
n P
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:35:59 -0500
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From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Musical Instruments from the Tomb of
Tutankhamun.
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1.0
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Rinaldo.....Hi,
I tried to go to the Tutankhamun site,
but address didn't work. Any
ideas?
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at
themselves, for they shall never
cease
to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:06:17 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
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i call
him joe because he calls me joe. when carl is with us, he is also
joe.
everybody is joe because it's easier that way. at the same time, it
is a
reminder thatone should not take himself too seriously.
henry
miller, tropic of cancer
(this
was translated from serbian, so it's probably somewhat different
from
the original text; the meaning, however, is the same)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:50:12 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: explanation "Pinocchio".
In-Reply-To: <01bd0649$5d386c40$aa716086@ritzo>
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amici,
Pinocchio
is a puppet who was made by wood
then
became a real man. that'a all in italy.
saluti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:56:04 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
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At
12:06 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Ksenija Simic
wrote:
>i
call him joe because he calls me joe. when carl is
>with
us, he is also joe. everybody is joe because it's
>easier
that way. at the same time, it
>is
a reminder thatone should not take himself
>too
seriously.
>
>henry
miller, tropic of cancer
>
>(this
was translated from serbian, so it's probably somewhat different
>from
the original text; the meaning, however, is the same)
Or as
Dylan said in "Gotta Serve Somebody:"
"You
may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy,
You may
call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy,
You may
call me R.J., you may call me Ray,
You may
call me anything but no matter what you say
You're
gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're
gonna have to serve somebody.
Well,
it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But
you're gonna have to serve somebody."
>From
a time when Dylan took things too seriously. . . {;^>
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:10:36 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption and
clickityclickitytraintracks
In-Reply-To: <3490ABDD.76FC@midusa.net>
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>jo
grant wrote:
>>
>>
>mc, december whatevah....
>>
>>
MC,
>>
>>
I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
>>
Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
>>
dates and times still on?
>>
>>
I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
>>
long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
>>
city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
>>
>>
Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
>>
are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
>>
I, or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
>>
poet from the crowd.
>>
>>
Scanning the crowd looking for.... I know,
I know. You'll be wearing a
>>
poem in your lapel.
>>
>>
With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
>>
friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
>>
friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems
do get around.
>>
>>
jo
>>
>this
sounds fun!!!!
>anybody
gonna be in Phoenix over the Holidays?????
>i
won't give a BEAT IQ test cuz i'd probably flunk it.
>i
won't have a lapel - so i'll have to stick a poem somewhere else
><grin>
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
David,
I feel
redemption just around the corner. I screw up, space a post,waste
list
space and manage to keep my foot out of my mouth. Something good is
going
happen.
Good
friend you might have enjoyed meeting called today and informed me
she's
on her way to Switzerland for a month-long holiday.
Three
years ago we moved to Madison from Tempe. Eight years down there. I
love
the north country, but damned if I didn't fall in love with the desert
as soon
as I experienced it.
While
you're there take a hike up Echo Canyon.
jo
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:56:37 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (trumpet) Golem Tutankhamun.
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version:
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Antoine
and friends,
(in the
film titled fift element by Luc Bresson?) anyway the
the
legend at italian rai broadcasting corporation
the
best site about the egyptian trumpets
played
in the 1939. in this site there's
a
reverse sound of the tutankhamun trumpet and others info...
tutankhamun
trumpets summary
check
first!
http://www.rai.it/grr/golem/
http://www.rai.it/grr/golem/maniaci/trombfrm.htm
any
comments and ideas email the golem at
golem@rai.it
************
other
web site
Hans van
den Berg
http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/trumpet.html
and
http://www.amargiland.com/hall-of-records/tuts.trumpet.html
this
sites attention... that who are used to connect to internet
via
trumpet.exe file maybe there's be a overwriting of the
file by
the tutankhamun trumpet file so...
i hope
this help, if necessary other info email me
saluti,
Rinaldo.
--------
Antoine
wrote:
>Rinaldo.....Hi,
>
> I tried to go to the Tutankhamun site,
but address didn't work. Any
>ideas?
>
> Antoine
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in
Montreal
>
> "Blessed are they who can laugh at
themselves, for they shall never
>cease
to be amused."
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:54:39 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption and clickityclickitytraintracks
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hi jo!
yes, you have date and layover time correctly. i'll be wearing
carnations
bloom'n outta me bloomn' ears.
seriously,
to be met by anyone, and to have help with luggage and perhaps a
bought
in advance real food like grinder/hoagie, what ever it is called.
and i
will exchange for tape just made that (despite absolutley insanne
laughter
after a 3x blooped line, ) is a much better repesentation of both
reading
and poem updates.
you're
right about lack of time, but some companionship and someone to help me
stay
oriented sure would be nice.
marie
jo
grant wrote:
>
>mc, december whatevah....
>
>
MC,
>
>
I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
>
Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
>
dates and times still on?
>
>
I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
>
long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
>
city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
>
>
Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
>
are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
> I,
or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
>
poet from the crowd.
>
>
Scanning the crowd looking for.... I
know, I know. You'll be wearing a
>
poem in your lapel.
>
>
With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
>
friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
>
friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems
do get around.
>
> jo
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:59:53 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: even cow girls get the blues
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>
tom robbins wrote it i believe.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:01:50 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption and
clickityclickitytraintracks
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no beat
iq test and i can be immediatly recognized by carnations bloomn' outta
me
bloom' ears, eh?
mc
RACE
--- wrote:
> jo
grant wrote:
>
>
>
> >mc, december whatevah....
>
>
>
> MC,
>
>
>
> I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
>
> Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
>
> dates and times still on?
>
>
>
> I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple
of
>
> long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
>
> city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
>
>
>
> Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
>
> are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
>
> I, or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
>
> poet from the crowd.
>
>
>
> Scanning the crowd looking for....
I know, I know. You'll be wearing a
>
> poem in your lapel.
>
>
>
> With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
>
> friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
>
> friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your
poems do get around.
>
>
>
> jo
>
>
>
this sounds fun!!!!
>
anybody gonna be in Phoenix over the Holidays?????
> i
won't give a BEAT IQ test cuz i'd probably flunk it.
> i
won't have a lapel - so i'll have to stick a poem somewhere else
>
<grin>
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:20:28 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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In a
message dated 97-12-12 00:01:03 EST, you write:
<<
i bought it in that bookstore in
Boulder -- you know the one -- i think it was
green (the book not the
bookstore - the bookstore was orange)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s.
i'll be quiet now!
>>
chuckle,
chuckle, chuckle....I'm encouraging your behavior.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:21:58 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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In a
message dated 97-12-12 00:15:06 EST, you write:
<<
_Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
(cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to
the stars) {;^>
Mike >>
This is
a rib, right?!? Say it isn't so! Please.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:43:09 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Timothy
Franklin Thomas wrote:
>
> On
the rational level THE religion would be the one respectful of all
>
differences. Unfortunately all religions were created by man and man is a
>
long way from being tolerant. Redemption is alas only a fabricated concept
>
that man uses to excuse his indescretions. The search for redemption,
> a
human flaw of which I also possess, can be satisfied by the smallest of
>
acts. It is up to the one in need of redemption to realize what will
>
satisfy his conscious. It can certainly be something as simple as Patricia
>
says "cum and tears." Jack could find no satisfaction, Allen on the
>
otherhand found it in abundance.
>
> On
Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
>
> kerouac and other beats seemed
>
> > to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
>
> > that--religions created by man.
in order to be redeemed as a writer or a
>
> > human being, it is imperative that we find something far more
spiritual
>
> > than that.
>
>
>
> can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
>
> you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
>
> religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
>
> claiming to be the only one.
>
>
Back
from four hours of truckstop reading of Vanity of D. and read this
note
and i just don't understand the notion of Jack finding "no
satisfaction". Sure he was honest and open about his
dissastisfactions
- much
more than most of us are i imagine ... but why this near
consensus
i get that Jack found no satisfaction?
It seems an awfully
negative
impression of him. I mean, sure - if i
decide to take a very
intolerant
view of people who drink to excess AND am angry that he died
young
then i can read all his stuff and come out with this tragedy that
can bum
me to the depths of torture-hell-and-back.
But he's also such a
beautiful
writer about people and places and hilarious sometimes.
Vanity
is going so slow caused it's such a fucking FUNNY book! And so
it
seems like we often go a bit overboard in this whole Jack don't get
no
satisfaction kinda thing (mick jagger playing flute on the soundtrack
of this
post) and perhaps it is that we (speaking for my attitude
sometimes
too) don't get satisfaction out of jack cuz we won't forgive
or be
tolerant of the life choices he made - which is hilarious to me in
its own
way (and i gotta wonder if Jack doesn't just laugh at all of us
sometimes
where-ever he is -- probably reincarnated as a computer
keyboard
or something ---- who knows)....but the point i was trying to
make is
that it seems like way over-stating the case to say Jack found
no
satisfaction - - - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
satisfaction
and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
person's
hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz it
ain't
your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
i
won't.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. still have this DAMN cold!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:44:21 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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M.
Cakebread wrote:
>
> At
09:11 PM 12/11/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>
>Diane M. Homza wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title
(sorry
>
>> I can't be more vague)....
>
>
>
>sure you could be more vague! Did
anybody read the book ... can't
>
>remember the title it was paperback and i bought it in that bookstore in
>
>Boulder -- you know the one -- i think it was green (the book not the
>
>bookstore - the bookstore was orange)
>
>
_Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
>
>
(cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
>
>
Mike
were
you able to figure this out from MY clues???? WOW!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:45:17 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Marie Countryman
wrote:
>
>
RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> the internal includes the external and the external includes the
>
> internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> if
i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
> who
> is
the walrus?large mammals want to know.
> hi
dave
he
lives in Wichita. no kidding!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:09:35 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
Comments:
To: edixon@excalnet.com, ddd@splab.org, jubilo@maui.com,
mdickste@email.gc.cuny.edu,
gdavid@northlink.com, crosby@nevada.edu,
creeley@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu,
0003301643@MCIMAIL.COM,
slamgran@ix.netcom.com,
sc@media.mit.edu, nancyp@wenet.net,
sparky@ecafe.org, dillo@ohww.norman.ok.us,
BretthA@aol.com,
rbove@duke.poly.edu,
candida@numb.ie, FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,
jablonk@pi.net, lew.blanck@usa.net,
vbippart@sover.net,
bigchief@bigmagic.com,
belile@earthlink.net, beacham@radiomail.net,
frank@beacham.com,
ducksquack@hotmail.com, kenk@efn.org,
BALLGV@vmi.edu, AB11@erols.com,
barlow@eff.org, brooklyn@netcom.com,
MAndre@aol.com, lamram1027@aol.com,
aifsprag@mbox.vol.cz,
HDREALITY@aol.com, acker@easynet.co.uk,
GAMuse@slip.net
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The NYC
Parks Dept. has approved June 12 for an all-day event in Central
Park
open to all. For June 13, Amiri
Baraka is working on obtaining
the
Newark,NJ, brand new Performing Arts
Center for a more formalized
event
for which tickets will be sold and at
which a VIP reception can
be
held. Either Newark s PAC or Newark s
Symphony Hall. The more
formalized
event in Newark will take place during the p.m. Baraka also
is
trying to obtain Newark s Weequahic Park Stadium for further events
that
evening (of June 13). We are starting
tp work on putting together
a cast
for the show, which will include music, performances and
readings. Sharon Levy, an L.A. organizer indicates
that, after L.A. s
very
successful Ginsberg memorial, the L.A. people are more or less sort
of
"tributed out" on Allen and prefer the Central Park event to be more
of a
Beat celebration that also honors W.S.Burroughs. And
so we
propose to call the event AN INTERNATIONAL CONVOCATION OF THE
BEST
MINDS, gathered to celebrate the "Beat"
impact and to honor Allen
Ginsberg
and William
Burroughs. Please mark June 12 and 13 on your calendars
and let me know
if you
wish to
participate
in the program and what you would like to read, perform or
otherwise
do once you are on stage at the
microphone. So far, we have
vnfirmed
for sure: David Amram, musician extraordinaire; Ellis Paul,
singer-songwriter, Hayes Greenfield, saxophonist extraordinaire.
In
addition, I am pleased to announce that George N.
Tobia Jr., a partner
in the
firm of Burns & Levinson, a specialist in entertainment law and
attorney
for the Jack Kerouac estate, has agreed to act as counsel to
THE
ALLEN
GINSBERG
MEMORIAL COMMITTEE. In addition, John
Scher, promoter of the
Grateful
Dead concerts in Giant Stadium and other such large venues, has
agreed
to act as producer. Please spread the
word. Best, Al Aronowitz,
secretary,
THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:33:17 -0500
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From: Richard Wallner
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Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
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Sounds
cool...can I suggest that Gerry Nicosia be invited to speak at
this
event. This would be a terrific place
for Gerry to talk about the
Kerouac
estate battle, and raise funds for his lawsuits (he has two as I
understand
it, one pertaining to moving and preserving the "Memory Babe"
archives
and one pertaining to his efforts to carry out Kerouac's
daughters
wishes concerning Jack's papers)
Id
suggest, to be fair, to invite John Sampas as well, but I gather he'd
only
appear if Nicosia was expressly NOT invited.
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:41:23 -0500
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From: "john v. omlor"
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Strange. Every now and then I feel compelled to post
a piece here just to
let
someone know I'm still writing. Anyway,
here's a small prose poem you
can
feel free to skip right over.
-- J.
***************************************************
By Way
of Introduction
She
comes out of the door slowly, pulling a heavy coat over her shoulders
to
protect hereself against a biting wind.
She is lost in thought but
still
knows, somehow, to make the proper turns and avoid the posts that
line
the street. When she opens the door to
the small room at the end of
the
hall and turns on the light the sounds echo in solitude and lonliness
and
serious business. On the desk waits a
small notebook, white pages, a
handful
of mismatched pens and a bottle of wine.
There is music in the
room,
joyous, and yet with an echo of solemnity.
There is dance in the
room,
passionate and excited and vibrant and never stopping and spilling
over in
excess and sweat and pleading and raw energy.
There is passion in
the
room, begging and being begged and fulfilling and being fulfilled,
tasting
and being tasted, losing and being lost.
There is work in the
room, dilligent
and disciplined and determined and direct, carrying care
and
caution and throwing itself often into courageous speculation. And
there
are the smells, warm bread, fresh fruits, simmering sauces, heavy
coffees
and delicate teas. And of course, there
is silence in the room,
sometimes
wonderful sometimes horrible; sometimes healing sometimes
painful;
sometimes isolating and sometimes self-defining. And finally,
there
is love in the room, a capacity for sharing and for soft gifts and
for
genuine, simple care that gives the room its light. As she sits at the
desk
and lifts the glass to her lips a smile creeps out of the corner of
her
mouth and her eyes set off small fires.
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:22:35 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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>
RACE wrote:
- - - - - and i could go on and preach a
sermon about
>
satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
>
person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
> it
>
ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
I don't
think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
confused. Kerouac did write things that were
hilarious, he wrote about
"living"
life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
find a
great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
beans, loving his cat, and even a good
"high." To say that he also
was
involved
in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
moments. We've talked before here about epiphany in
his works. In my
mind
one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
needing
or finding redemption. Sometimes in
reading Kerouac it is as if
he
expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
finds
the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
no
closer to finding the key. The need for redemption is also something
that
comes from growing up in a Christian religion.
What I think is at
the
heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
moments
of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
And
that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
life,
and he writes a good deal about both of them?
DC
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:05:14 -0500
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From: Richard Wallner
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
Comments:
To: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>
In-Reply-To: <349153AF.3BDC@bigmagic.com>
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>
addition, I am pleased to announce that
George N. Tobia Jr., a partner
> in
the firm of Burns & Levinson, a specialist in entertainment law and
>
attorney for the Jack Kerouac estate, has agreed to act as counsel to
>
THE ALLEN
>
GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE. In
addition, John Scher, promoter of the
hmm
though...I wonder if Tobia would back out himself if Nicosia was
one of
the speakers.
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:54:43 EST
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: truly beat?
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In a
message dated 97-12-12 02:04:21 EST, you write:
<< don't want to tackle this question, defining
"truly beat", because it is
an
impossible ideal. there are no formulas for living only that you be
oneself,
be self-aware, self-understanding, open-eyed
and open-eared and honest. for
each person this is different, >>
okay
okay okay,
i
suppose i didn't phrase my question the right way. i wasn't really looking
for a
definition. i just wanted your ideas on what you thought that guy who
wrote
the article meant when he said, "to be truly beat...blah blah blah"
should
i have just written him off as an idiot and moved on?
~~marlene
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:49:22 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: yikes! And YIKES again
In-Reply-To: <199712121234.HAA12252@pike.sover.net>
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>
>Marie
Countryman wrote:
>jo
lost yr address, these came flying back, as did yr address. will
>wonders
never ceace. ok here goes:
>
>
look forward tobany help and companionship riding herd over my giant
>haversacks.
and
>
maybe something to eat that doen'st resemble train fare or power bars(my
>
basic on the road c-rations) and david has already made the whole idea
>fun
on the list.
Hey MC,
We'll
see what we can do.
Hell I
don't even know where the Chicago train station is. Last time I saw
it I
was heading south to catch a U. S. Navy destroyer and the North
Koreans,
all of China and a sizable section of Russia were trembling in
their
boots and a doctor, freezing his buns off in the winter hills of
South
Korea was thinking "This medical outpost is crazy. I better start a
journal.
There's a book here and maybe a movie."
I'm at:
113
Cambridge Road
Madison,
WI 53704-5909
608-246-0759
How
about that Al Aronowitz. I'm making plans to throw a sleeping bag in
the old
'66 Volvo and head to NYC for that gathering. This is going to make
the
gathering for the three tenors look like a Whoopee John Wilfart polka
gig.
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line
at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:51:48 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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At
07:44 AM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>>
_Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
>>
>>
(cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
>>
>>
Mike
>
>were
you able to figure this out from MY clues???? WOW!
Yup,
that's what studying for psych finals does to ya.
It
boosts the esp powers. . .
Mike
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:23:00 -0800
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From: Eric Lytle
<e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
Comments:
To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
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>
Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title
>
(sorry
> I
can't be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as
>
the
>
leading gal who had these enormous thumbs.
But anyway....of what I
>
read of
>
the book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story
> to
the
>
leading character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about
>
how
>
they met hitchhiking...pretty funny.
This post reminded me of that
>
book.
>
>
Diane.
>
Such irony. An old girlfriend gave me this book, saying that it was
better
than all those Kerouac books I was reading.
I was never able to
get
into it, and even now it sits in my
books-started stack. Maybe
I'll
read on until she meets JK. I don't
know how many Robbins fans
there
are on this list, but we might be due
for a discussion here. Any
Robbins
readers up for a comparison vs. the Beats?
-E
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:02:30 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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i've
been confused and i'm guessing it goes back to that pesky word
redemption
in the first place.
Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
> RACE wrote:
>
> - - - - - and i could go on and preach a
sermon about
>
> satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
>
> person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
>
> it
>
> ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>
> I
don't think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
>
confused. Kerouac did write things that
were hilarious, he wrote about
>
"living" life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
>
find a great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
>
beans, loving his cat, and even a good
"high."
It
seems to me that the depth of satisfaction he finds or shows in these
sorts
of things are beautiful examples of finding redemption (with a
small
"r" i guess) in THIS life.
To say
that he also was
>
involved in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
>
moments. We've talked before here about
epiphany in his works. In my
>
mind one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
>
needing or finding redemption.
It
seems that at the moment of these events (eternal moments i suppose)
that a
person is as redeemed as possible in THIS life because the forms
of
human separation felt so deeply by some are erased and absent.
Sometimes
in reading Kerouac it is as if
> he
expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
>
finds the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
> no
closer to finding the key.
I think
it's like he finds the key and drops it along the highway and
has to
go find it again!
The
need for redemption is also something
>
that comes from growing up in a Christian religion. What I think is at
>
the heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
>
moments of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
Now
these i think begin to push towards notions of redemption BEYOND
THIS
life. Perhaps i'm mistaken. And i suppose that the specific
upbringing
is magnified by the death of Gerard (and the question of why
did he
die instead of me?) and if these are the notions of redemption
than i
may be flip-flopping again (though i don't know why nobody ever
seemed
to slap him and say Gerard could have grown up to be other than a
saint -
he could have CHANGED and become quite the mouse-killer a mass
murdering
mouse-killer and the nuns who used saint were speaking out of
turn
and at most figuratively b/c as far as i know old gerard was never
put
through the whole sainthood ordeal with passing marks after his
death)
>
And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
>
life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
but the
legend as a whole he "says" is a comedy. of course, i guess the
tragedy
could be him thinking comedy in tragedy and then someone might
find
the comic in that and it could go on and on and on.....
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
p.s. called some receptionist an idiot over the
phone but finally got a
doctor's
appointment for my cold :)
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:10:54 -0800
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
In-Reply-To: <34918104.8E217BCB@ced.utah.edu>
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On Fri,
12 Dec 1997, Eric Lytle wrote:
>
Any Robbins readers up for a comparison vs. the Beats?
11:20pm
Baltimore 1985, frigid winter, 19, college, no car. I'd been out
with
Melissa 17 all morning and afternoon and evening, no buses or trains
back to
Annapolis till dawn. Landlord wanted her for himself - no
overnight
men in her room allowed. Stood at the landlord's stairs while
she
went up then descended. In her hands were two novels to keep company
at
donut shop: Vonnegut "Slapstick," Robbins "Still Life With
Woodpecker."
Had few
dozen cents pressed against return bus Annapolis ticket in pocket
-
enough for two cups all night coffee. Into chrome and glass and
gold-flecked
plastic sheet countertop donut shop, husbanded coins for
later,
sat and opened Vonnegut. Strange and heartless. Finished then
ordered
coffee cup. Opened Robbins and faint impression of colored light
and a
smiling face that wrote these words. Second cup of coffee during
_Still
Life With Woodpecker_, finished book at 2am and then sat in donut
shop,
talked with wise wino bums ("Those are good hands you have there.
You
should be a concert pianist at the Conservatory with those hands."),
talked
with their taciturn brother behind the counter, grizzled big adam's
apple
short man angrily shoving donuts on sheets into frier, and stared
out
glossy window at static night sky, waiting for dawn and slight warmth
and
motion and busses running again.
Dawn
came after immortal hours of boredom. Melissa's landlord's house was
on way
to bus depot, dropped books into single mailbox with scribbled note
on
taken paper with borrowed pen: "Stream of unconsciousness."
Colored
light, smiling face, stream of unconsciousness. That's been
the
best of Robbins for me ever since.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a
hidden intention."
-
Brian Eno
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:19:34 -0800
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <34917C36.3144@midusa.net>
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On Fri,
12 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
i've been confused and i'm guessing it goes back to that pesky word
>
redemption in the first place.
"From
what, and to what, could this infinite whirl be saved?"
- D.H.
Lawrence
in _The Man
Who Died_
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a
hidden intention."
-
Brian Eno
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:44:47 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Creeley at 70 - October, 1996.
In-Reply-To:
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Baraka
could've no less stormed the stage than if he had been backed by the
John
Coltrane quartet itself. Baraka's small build gives one no preparation
for the
immense vision, rhythm, voicing, and cadences that will emerge from
the
flaming words of his performance. Invoking as central to the Yugen of
Baraka's
earlier years, "the big three" of the magazine, Ginsberg (is that
right?),
big Charlie Olson, and Bob Creeley. (Sorrentino, by the way, also
appeared
in Yugen.) Baraka paid homage to Creeley then performed from
Transbluecency
and his more recent Funk Lore (Los Angeles: Littoral Books,
1996).
Baraka's humming, chanting, and vocal renditions of the standards-a
la-Baraka
were in perfect accord with the chords still lingering, clinging
to the
packed, overflowing theatre. No printed text can do this! People
filling
all seats, people on all sides, standing, squatting, spilling out
into
the Hallwalls' hallway. Blues, transblues, transvoicings, the
unbelievable
coup d'etats of Baraka's "lowcoups" (African American version
of that
knock-out blast commonly associated with the haiku), and his
closing
triumph (slaves, dig, we were once slaves). Indeed, it was about
people,
what we are, the rhythms that vibrate through one and the same.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:53:14 -0500
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From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Creeley at 70 - October, 1996.
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Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
Baraka could've no less stormed the stage than if he had been backed by the
>
John Coltrane quartet itself. Baraka's small build gives one no preparation
>
for the immense vision, rhythm, voicing, and cadences that will emerge from
>
the flaming words of his performance. Invoking as central to the Yugen of
>
Baraka's earlier years, "the big three" of the magazine, Ginsberg (is
that
>
right?), big Charlie Olson, and Bob Creeley. (Sorrentino, by the way, also
>
appeared in Yugen.) Baraka paid homage to Creeley then performed from
>
Transbluecency and his more recent Funk Lore (Los Angeles: Littoral Books,
>
1996). Baraka's humming, chanting, and vocal renditions of the standards-a
>
la-Baraka were in perfect accord with the chords still lingering, clinging
> to
the packed, overflowing theatre. No printed text can do this! People
>
filling all seats, people on all sides, standing, squatting, spilling out
>
into the Hallwalls' hallway. Blues, transblues, transvoicings, the
>
unbelievable coup d'etats of Baraka's "lowcoups" (African American version
> of
that knock-out blast commonly associated with the haiku), and his
>
closing triumph (slaves, dig, we were once slaves). Indeed, it was about
>
people, what we are, the rhythms that vibrate through one and the same.
RINALDO: Is this your prose? Or poetry, if y'wanna callit that. It's
fuckin
beautiful and absolutely hits the nail on the head! That's the
Baraka
I know! --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:00:22 -0500
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From: "Hemenway . Mark"
<MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Beat Movement a Failure
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I
didn't think there was a beat movement. Just a bunch of guys (mostly),
some of
whom talked about beatness and tried to be authentic individuals
in
their time and place. Hell, they never even agreed on what the word
meant,
thereby providing us endless hours of enjoyment debating the
same.
"If
you can talk about it, it ain't the tao."
"If
it's got a name, it ain't the tao. "
Mark
Hemenway
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
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God! I
tried reading that book too! the back blurb about Kerouac got me to buy
it-
what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a serious
one-
much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
interesting.
Gene
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Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:15:10 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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armong
arms laden with wine
dniffing
off the nustthat driftsinter yr ears
thanks.
will
have boris and natacha on lookout
from
train platrorm
scully
RACE
--- wrote:
>
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>
>
> RACE --- wrote:
>
>
>
> > the internal includes the external and the external includes the
>
> > internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>
> >
>
> > _____
>
>
>
> if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman,
than
>
> who
>
> is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
>
> hi dave
>
> he
lives in Wichita. no kidding!
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:19:14 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject:
Re: yikes! And YIKES again
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you
kickle me, you really do.
mc
whatever
happens will be an adventure; perhaps an adventure told to you, and
not
starring you(as was my wont), but you wiil be there, a truffaut or
fellini
character, there immediately outofand into place, like a burroughs
caracter,
hell by wsb hisself....
i do go
on, don't i
mc
jo
grant wrote:
>
>
>
>Marie Countryman wrote:
>
>
>jo lost yr address, these came flying back, as did yr address. will
>
>wonders never ceace. ok here goes:
>
>
>
> look forward tobany help and companionship riding herd over my giant
>
>haversacks. and
>
> maybe something to eat that doen'st resemble train fare or power bars(my
>
> basic on the road c-rations) and david has already made the whole idea
>
>fun on the list.
>
>
Hey MC,
>
>
We'll see what we can do.
>
>
Hell I don't even know where the Chicago train station is. Last time I saw
> it
I was heading south to catch a U. S. Navy destroyer and the North
>
Koreans, all of China and a sizable section of Russia were trembling in
>
their boots and a doctor, freezing his buns off in the winter hills of
>
South Korea was thinking "This medical outpost is crazy. I better start a
>
journal. There's a book here and maybe a movie."
>
>
I'm at:
>
113 Cambridge Road
>
Madison, WI 53704-5909
>
608-246-0759
>
>
How about that Al Aronowitz. I'm making plans to throw a sleeping bag in
>
the old '66 Volvo and head to NYC for that gathering. This is going to make
>
the gathering for the three tenors look like a Whoopee John Wilfart polka
>
gig.
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:22:05 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: "By Way of Introduction"
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keep on
giving into those urges to write, and send them out to us, angel mine.
mc
john v.
omlor wrote:
>
Strange. Every now and then I feel
compelled to post a piece here just to
>
let someone know I'm still writing.
Anyway, here's a small prose poem you
>
can feel free to skip right over.
>
> --
J.
>
>
***************************************************
>
> By
Way of Introduction
>
>
She comes out of the door slowly, pulling a heavy coat over her shoulders
> to
protect hereself against a biting wind.
She is lost in thought but
>
still knows, somehow, to make the proper turns and avoid the posts that
>
line the street. When she opens the
door to the small room at the end of
>
the hall and turns on the light the sounds echo in solitude and lonliness
>
and serious business. On the desk waits
a small notebook, white pages, a
>
handful of mismatched pens and a bottle of wine. There is music in the
>
room, joyous, and yet with an echo of solemnity. There is dance in the
>
room, passionate and excited and vibrant and never stopping and spilling
>
over in excess and sweat and pleading and raw energy. There is passion in
>
the room, begging and being begged and fulfilling and being fulfilled,
>
tasting and being tasted, losing and being lost. There is work in the
>
room, dilligent and disciplined and determined and direct, carrying care
>
and caution and throwing itself often into courageous speculation. And
>
there are the smells, warm bread, fresh fruits, simmering sauces, heavy
>
coffees and delicate teas. And of
course, there is silence in the room,
>
sometimes wonderful sometimes horrible; sometimes healing sometimes
>
painful; sometimes isolating and sometimes self-defining. And finally,
>
there is love in the room, a capacity for sharing and for soft gifts and
>
for genuine, simple care that gives the room its light. As she sits at the
>
desk and lifts the glass to her lips a smile creeps out of the corner of
>
her mouth and her eyes set off small fires.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:43:06 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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rave on
dear racer!
mc
love
this reply
RACE
--- wrote:
>
Timothy Franklin Thomas wrote:
>
>
>
> On the rational level THE religion would be the one respectful of all
>
> differences. Unfortunately all religions were created by man and man is a
>
> long way from being tolerant. Redemption is alas only a fabricated concept
>
> that man uses to excuse his indescretions. The search for redemption,
>
> a human flaw of which I also possess, can be satisfied by the smallest of
>
> acts. It is up to the one in need of redemption to realize what will
>
> satisfy his conscious. It can certainly be something as simple as Patricia
>
> says "cum and tears." Jack could find no satisfaction, Allen on
the
>
> otherhand found it in abundance.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
>
>
> > kerouac and other beats seemed
>
> > > to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those
are just
>
> > > that--religions created by man.
in order to be redeemed as a writer or
a
>
> > > human being, it is imperative that we find something far more
spiritual
>
> > > than that.
>
> >
>
> > can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
>
> > you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that
The
>
> > religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
>
> > claiming to be the only one.
>
> >
>
Back from four hours of truckstop reading of Vanity of D. and read this
>
note and i just don't understand the notion of Jack finding "no
>
satisfaction". Sure he was honest
and open about his dissastisfactions
> -
much more than most of us are i imagine ... but why this near
>
consensus i get that Jack found no satisfaction? It seems an awfully
>
negative impression of him. I mean,
sure - if i decide to take a very
>
intolerant view of people who drink to excess AND am angry that he died
>
young then i can read all his stuff and come out with this tragedy that
>
can bum me to the depths of torture-hell-and-back. But he's also such a
>
beautiful writer about people and places and hilarious sometimes.
>
Vanity is going so slow caused it's such a fucking FUNNY book! And so
> it
seems like we often go a bit overboard in this whole Jack don't get
> no
satisfaction kinda thing (mick jagger playing flute on the soundtrack
> of
this post) and perhaps it is that we (speaking for my attitude
>
sometimes too) don't get satisfaction out of jack cuz we won't forgive
> or
be tolerant of the life choices he made - which is hilarious to me in
>
its own way (and i gotta wonder if Jack doesn't just laugh at all of us
>
sometimes where-ever he is -- probably reincarnated as a computer
>
keyboard or something ---- who knows)....but the point i was trying to
>
make is that it seems like way over-stating the case to say Jack found
> no
satisfaction - - - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
>
satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
>
person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz it
>
ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>
> i
won't.
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
>
p.s. still have this DAMN cold!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:45:36 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: oh is my face red.
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sorry i
got myself all turned around here today. think i posted private
posts
here. can't remember which ones. damn!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:56:28 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971212102835.285A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
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On 12-12 Richard Wallner wrote
>Sounds
cool...can I suggest that Gerry Nicosia be invited to speak at
>this
event. This would be a terrific place
for Gerry to talk about the
>Kerouac
estate battle, and raise funds for his lawsuits (he has two as I
>understand
it, one pertaining to moving and preserving the "Memory Babe"
>archives
and one pertaining to his efforts to carry out Kerouac's
>daughters
wishes concerning Jack's papers)
>
>Id
suggest, to be fair, to invite John Sampas as well, but I gather he'd
>only
appear if Nicosia was expressly NOT invited.
\Richard:
Sounds
cool. Sounds VERY, VERY cool. And this gets cc'd to Al Aronowitz so
he can
give some thought to your recommendation.
That's
going to be a busy day and night in Central Park. Probably attract
Beats
from around the world. I'll bet that audience would love a 15 minute
break.
Five minutes for John Sampas. Then five minutes for Gerry Nicosia.
Then
give each of them 2 minutes to respond and let the mass of Beats get a
taste
of what the litigation is all about.
And
then let the courts decide.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:00:20 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: oh is my face red.
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
sorry i got myself all turned around here today. think i posted private
>
posts here. can't remember which ones. damn!
> mc
heh heh
heh -- it happens to the best of us ... some guy named joe in
western
lands not knowing which buttons to push ... we've all got the
same
damn technician in our collective heads and old joe (petticoat
junction
theme in my head) is moving slow at the buttons and pushes
green
for red and blue for orange because he was born color-blind and
managed
to pass the grand technicians test in the sky because the
technician
on grading duty named old joe too (or two don't know which)
happened
to be color-blind to and so he'd pushed all the wrong buttons
too and
by random coincidence or meaningful synchronistic significance
the
errors overlapped perfectly and old joe's scores outdid old joe too
two's
scores and old joe took over at the technician post and keeps
hitting
those synapses in the collective unconscious that say "sure it's
the
wrong button but push it anyway!!! heh heh heh.... and see what
happens
... heh heh heh ... how will we ever know which button is THE
button
without some good old fashioned american trial and error
ingenuity
... heh heh heh...." and so the switch is hit and we all
manage
to send private to public and public to private and soon there's
lawsuits
flying around but then old joe just pushes a button or two in
rehnquists
secret diaries and they go on-line and the supreme court is
well
let's just say a little less supreme! and so the public figure
doctrine
in libel is quickly flip-flopped to protect public figures more
than
private figures like we're all statues or something and if this was
going
anywhere's i've forgotten what train track it was on -- oh yeah
...there's
uncle joe he's a moving kinda slow at the junction....!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:09:30 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
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jo
grant wrote:
>
Five minutes for John Sampas. Then five minutes for Gerry Nicosia.
>
Then give each of them 2 minutes to respond and let the mass of Beats get a
>
taste of what the litigation is all about.
but
please no eye-gouging!!!!!!!!!!
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
>
>
And then let the courts decide.
>
> j
grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors
07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:15:51 -0800
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
In-Reply-To:
<v03110706b0b7378cd537@[156.46.45.121]>
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On Fri,
12 Dec 1997, jo grant wrote:
>
That's going to be a busy day and night in Central Park. Probably attract
>
Beats from around the world. I'll bet that audience would love a 15 minute
>
break. Five minutes for John Sampas. Then five minutes for Gerry Nicosia.
>
Then give each of them 2 minutes to respond and let the mass of Beats get a
>
taste of what the litigation is all about.
How
about a vote by light?
The
pro-Nicosia forces could light up candles, and the pro-Sampas forces
could
knock them out of the pro-Nicosia hands.
;)
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a
hidden intention."
-
Brian Eno
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:40:45 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Did
Jack give satisfaction?
His
writings sure gave rise to all manner of passion. Passionate Readers
with
Clues, followers without any. al
Did
Jack get no satisfaction? Did he give no satisfaction?
His
writing sure gave rise to all manner of readers followers with clues
and
with no clue worshippers no clue passions released with heat thirty
years
after his death and the flames fanning.
-----Original
Message-----
From:
RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Friday, December 12, 1997 10:06 AM
Subject:
Re: redemption
>i've
been confused and i'm guessing it goes back to that pesky word
>redemption
in the first place.
>
>Diane
Carter wrote:
>>
>>
> RACE wrote:
>>
>> - - - - - and i could go on and preach a
sermon about
>>
> satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
>>
> person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
>>
> it
>>
> ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>>
>>
I don't think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
>>
confused. Kerouac did write things that
were hilarious, he wrote about
>>
"living" life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
>>
find a great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
>>
beans, loving his cat, and even a good
"high."
>
>It
seems to me that the depth of satisfaction he finds or shows in these
>sorts
of things are beautiful examples of finding redemption (with a
>small
"r" i guess) in THIS life.
>
>To
say that he also was
>>
involved in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
>>
moments. We've talked before here about
epiphany in his works. In my
>>
mind one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
>>
needing or finding redemption.
>
>It
seems that at the moment of these events (eternal moments i suppose)
>that
a person is as redeemed as possible in THIS life because the forms
>of
human separation felt so deeply by some are erased and absent.
>
>Sometimes
in reading Kerouac it is as if
>>
he expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
>>
finds the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
>>
no closer to finding the key.
>
>I
think it's like he finds the key and drops it along the highway and
>has
to go find it again!
>
>The
need for redemption is also something
>>
that comes from growing up in a Christian religion. What I think is at
>>
the heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
>>
moments of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
>
>Now
these i think begin to push towards notions of redemption BEYOND
>THIS
life. Perhaps i'm mistaken. And i suppose that the specific
>upbringing
is magnified by the death of Gerard (and the question of why
>did
he die instead of me?) and if these are the notions of redemption
>than
i may be flip-flopping again (though i don't know why nobody ever
>seemed
to slap him and say Gerard could have grown up to be other than a
>saint
- he could have CHANGED and become quite the mouse-killer a mass
>murdering
mouse-killer and the nuns who used saint were speaking out of
>turn
and at most figuratively b/c as far as i know old gerard was never
>put
through the whole sainthood ordeal with passing marks after his
>death)
>
>>
And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
>>
life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>
>but
the legend as a whole he "says" is a comedy. of course, i guess the
>tragedy
could be him thinking comedy in tragedy and then someone might
>find
the comic in that and it could go on and on and on.....
>
>david
rhaesa
>salina,
Kansas
>
>p.s. called some receptionist an idiot over the
phone but finally got a
>doctor's
appointment for my cold :)
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:51:49 -0800
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From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Beat Movement a Failure
In-Reply-To:
<1017B7AD7D34D111B9C900805FC1D3AE425262@and02.drc.com>
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On Fri,
12 Dec 1997, Hemenway . Mark wrote:
> I
didn't think there was a beat movement. Just a bunch of guys (mostly),
>
some of whom talked about beatness and tried to be authentic individuals
> in
their time and place. Hell, they never even agreed on what the word
>
meant, thereby providing us endless hours of enjoyment debating the
>
same.
W'ayll,
now, since Burroughs really helped _start_ Beatness when Ginsberg
came to
him as 30-year-old elder statesman and asked him to mediate in the
dispute
on what is Art, and Burroughs sniffed that his training with
Alfred
Korzybski and General Semantics had taught him that all
abstractions
are merely names for groups of particulars ... there's a
"Beat
Movement" if that's what you want to call Burroughs, Ginsberg, etc.
If you
thoroughly distinguish between abstractions, particulars, groups
of
particulars, concepts, and names for them all, you will go far. :)
Was
there a Beat Movement? In the normal meaning of the terms, yes. As
much as
there was a Romantic Period or Cliassical Period in European art.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a
hidden intention."
- Brian Eno
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:48:56 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: "By Way of Introduction"
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Simply
beautiful! thanks John
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:57:07 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
Comments:
To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
In-Reply-To: <199712120247.VAA28706@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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Even
Cowgirls Get the Blues by Tom Rollins,
book
and movie
Mike
Rice
At
09:47 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Diane M. Homza wrote:
>Reply
to message from rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG of Thu, 11 Dec
>>
>>This
is interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
>>and
he said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
>>Jack
Kerouac.
>>
>>I
then remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
>>Road"
came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
>>enrolled
in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
>>attended.
>>
>>The
book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
>>Marilyn
Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good
match, a beautiful woman
>>who
liked to drink as much as Jack did.
>>
>>But
more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
>
>
>Did
anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
>I
can't be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as the
>leading
gal who had these enormous thumbs. But
anyway....of what I read of
>the
book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story to the
>leading
character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about how
>they
met hitchhiking...pretty funny. This
post reminded me of that book.
>
>Diane.
>
>--
>"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
> --Jack Kerouac
>Diane
Marie Homza
>ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:59:15 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
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At
03:11 PM 12/12/97 +1000, John Pullicino wrote:
>what
was a failure was the ersatz madisonavenue/timemagazine conscription
>of
the 'beat movement' - it failed to hear to respect and to understand the
>new
voices that spoke into the hollow void left by the wartime
>propagandahowl
when the boys came home, and it failed to confront its own
>postwar
meaningless chromecar cocktail and cookingmachine suburban
>imperative
of 'time to have babies again - we beat the fuckers'
>
>
>
>--
>bye
for now,
>j o
h n P
>
>
We did
indeed and George Will is very angry about it!
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:03:32 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: even cow girls get the blues
In-Reply-To: <199712121101.GAA01183@pike.sover.net>
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At
05:59 AM 12/12/97 +0000, Marie Countryman wrote:
>>
tom robbins wrote it i believe.
>
>mc
>
>
No, it
was Easy Rollins!
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:03:34 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
In-Reply-To: <3ab66b91.34912c68@aol.com>
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At
07:21 AM 12/12/97 EST, DCardKJHS wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-12-12 00:15:06 EST, you write:
>
><<
>
_Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
>
>
(cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
>
>
Mike >>
>
>This
is a rib, right?!? Say it isn't
so! Please.
>Dennis
>
>
They're
brothers.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:07:45 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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At
12:22 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:
>>
RACE wrote:
>
> -
- - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
>>
satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
>>
person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
>>
it
>>
ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>
>I
don't think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
>confused. Kerouac did write things that were
hilarious, he wrote about
>"living"
life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
>find
a great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
>beans, loving his cat, and even a good
"high." To say that he also
was
>involved
in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
>moments. We've talked before here about epiphany in
his works. In my
>mind
one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
>needing
or finding redemption. Sometimes in
reading Kerouac it is as if
>he
expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
>finds
the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
>no
closer to finding the key. The need for redemption is also something
>that
comes from growing up in a Christian religion.
What I think is at
>the
heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
>moments
of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
>And
that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
>life,
and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>DC
>
>
Please,
no philosophy, just the facts!
Gradgrind
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:41:24 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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At
08:07 PM 12/12/97 -0500, mike rice wrote:
>At
12:22 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:
>>Sometimes
in reading Kerouac it is as if
>>he
expects a key to the mystery of life to be
>>handed
to him and that he finds the deeper he
>>looks
at both Catholicism and Eastern religions
>>he
is no closer to finding the key.
>>The
need for redemption is also something
>>that
comes from growing up in a Christian religion.
>>What
I think is at the heart of Kerouac's work is:
>>What
do all the good moments and bad moments of life
>>mean
in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
>>And
that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that
>>are
equal parts of
>>life,
and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>>DC
>
>Please,
no philosophy, just the facts!
>
>Gradgrind
"The
great epochs of our life come when we gain the
courage
to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>From
_Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:19:11 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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M.
Cakebread wrote:
>
> At
08:07 PM 12/12/97 -0500, mike rice wrote:
>
>
>At 12:22 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:
>
>
>>Sometimes in reading Kerouac it is as if
>
>>he expects a key to the mystery of life to be
>
>>handed to him and that he finds the deeper he
>
>>looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions
>
>>he is no closer to finding the key.
>
>>The need for redemption is also something
>
>>that comes from growing up in a Christian religion.
>
>>What I think is at the heart of Kerouac's work is:
>
>>What do all the good moments and bad moments of life
>
>>mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
>
>>And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that
>
>>are equal parts of
>
>>life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>
>>DC
>
>
>
>Please, no philosophy, just the facts!
>
>
>
>Gradgrind
>
>
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
>
courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>
>
>From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
"What
I like about my madness is that it has protected me from the very
beginning
against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that i
was the
happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to save
myself
-- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
faith. As a result, my pure choice did not raise me
above anyone.
Without
equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
save
all of me. If i relegate impossible
Salvation to the proproom,
what
remains? A whole man, composed of all
men and as good as all of
them
and no better than any."
from
THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:11:14 -0800
Reply-To: gbarker@thegrid.net
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From: Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>
Subject: Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
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GTL1951
wrote:
>
God! I tried reading that book too! the back blurb about Kerouac got me to buy
> it-
what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a serious
>
one- much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
>
interesting.
>
Gene
this is an abomination! My favorite author in the universe is Tom
Robbins;
his
books
are rich with imagination and beautiful philosophy. Reading this note
broke
my heart for a moment, but I have to admit that Cowgirls is not the best
representation
of Robbins' work. Actually, Robbins is
very similar in choice of
themes
to Vonnegut, who I know several of the list members greatly appreciate.
So sad,
so sad, Tom Robbins never gets any respect as a serious writer. Perhaps
he is
the Kerouac of his generation...but let's not get into that discussion
again.
*Anne*
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<HTML>
<P>GTL1951
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE>God! I tried reading that book too! the back blurb
about
Kerouac got me to buy
<BR>it-
what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a
serious
<BR>one-
much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
<BR>interesting.
<BR> &nbs
p;  
;
Gene</BLOCKQUOTE>
this is an abomination! My favorite author in the universe
is Tom
Robbins; his books are rich with imagination and beautiful
philosophy.
Reading
this note broke my heart for a moment, but I have to admit that
<U>Cowgirls</U>
is not the best representation of Robbins' work.
Actually,
Robbins is very similar in choice of themes to Vonnegut, who
I know
several of the list members greatly appreciate. So sad, so
sad,
Tom Robbins never gets any respect as a serious writer. Perhaps
he is
the Kerouac of his generation...but let's not get into that discussion
again.
<BR>
*Anne*</HTML>
--------------7F7586EA97A437F58841E910--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:54:35 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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At
10:19 PM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>M.
Cakebread wrote:
>>
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
>>
courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>>
>>
>From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>"What
I like about my madness is that it has protected me from the very
>beginning
against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that i
>was
the happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to save
>myself
-- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
>faith. As a result, my pure choice did not raise me
above anyone.
>Without
equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
>save
all of me. If i relegate impossible
Salvation to the proproom,
>what
remains? A whole man, composed of all
men and as good as all of
>them
and no better than any."
>
>from
THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
"The
consequences of our actions take hold of us,
quite
indifferent to our claim that meanwhile we
have
'improved.' "
>From
_Beyond Good And Evil_ by Friedrich Nietzsche
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:57:44 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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M.
Cakebread wrote:
>
> At
10:19 PM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>
>M. Cakebread wrote:
>
>
>> "The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
>
>> courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>
>>
>
>> >From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>
>
>"What I like about my madness is that it has protected me from the
very
>
>beginning against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that i
>
>was the happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to save
>
>myself -- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
>
>faith. As a result, my pure choice
did not raise me above anyone.
>
>Without equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
>
>save all of me. If i relegate
impossible Salvation to the proproom,
>
>what remains? A whole man, composed
of all men and as good as all of
>
>them and no better than any."
>
>
>
>from THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
>
>
"The consequences of our actions take hold of us,
>
quite indifferent to our claim that meanwhile we
>
have 'improved.' "
>
>
>From _Beyond Good And Evil_ by Friedrich Nietzsche
hee hee
hee
"Calculative
thinking is not meditative thinking, not thinking which
contemplates
the meaning which reigns in everything that is."
from
Discourse on Thinking by Martin Heidegger
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:40:46 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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Slon
Wydawnictwo
Literackie
Krakow
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:43:47 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/glazier/prose/creeley_70.h
tml
In-Reply-To:
<BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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the
slave andim'justnowreading Dutchman by LeRoi Jones
do
anyone here lookback Tommy Smith and John Carlos?
i saw
Amiri Baraka televised by tvz0ne declaming
X is black
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:40:57 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption/why not compassion
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i
prefer to meditate upon compassion for others vs redemption.
i don't
feel i have a damned thing that i've done in this world to repent or
be
redeemed from.
i have
a simple credo:
be
kind, learn, listen to others
have
compassion for self and others.
mc
RACE
--- wrote:
> M.
Cakebread wrote:
>
>
>
> At 10:19 PM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>
> >M. Cakebread wrote:
>
>
>
> >> "The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
>
> >> courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>
> >>
>
> >> >From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> >
>
> >"What I like about my madness is that it has protected me from
the very
>
> >beginning against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that
i
>
> >was the happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to
save
>
> >myself -- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
>
> >faith. As a result, my pure
choice did not raise me above anyone.
>
> >Without equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
>
> >save all of me. If i relegate
impossible Salvation to the proproom,
>
> >what remains? A whole man,
composed of all men and as good as all of
>
> >them and no better than any."
>
> >
>
> >from THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
>
>
>
> "The consequences of our actions take hold of us,
>
> quite indifferent to our claim that meanwhile we
>
> have 'improved.' "
>
>
>
> >From _Beyond Good And Evil_ by Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>
hee hee hee
>
>
"Calculative thinking is not meditative thinking, not thinking which
>
contemplates the meaning which reigns in everything that is."
>
>
from Discourse on Thinking by Martin Heidegger
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:07:14 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Ginsberg
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does
anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of the court transcripts of
ginsberg
defending himself in court concerning freedom of speech?
brian
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Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:12:53 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a
CIA Agent?
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<BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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>Date:
Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:00:13 -0800
>From:
bofus? <bofus@mindspring.com>
>1968:
While other New-Left leaders preach violent overthrow of the U.S.
>Government
and creation of a Marxist dictatorship, Leary urges instead a
>nonviolent,
drug-oriented "hippie capitalism," an artsy-craftsy,
>decentralized,
libertarian sort of entrepeneurship that will also soon
>find
its expression in the culture of the Grateful Dead. While Leary's
>position
does constitute a rejection of the corporate world, it also
>embraces
private property and the profit motive. Because of this, the
>Marxist
Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) denounces Leary and his
>noncommunist
followers for "limiting the revolution." The Progressive
>Labor
Party (PLP), a Maoist "Old Left" group, goes so far as to claim
>that
Leary is a CIA agent. But the PLP is accusing everyone it disgarees
>with
of being CIA.
>
>1969:
Leary critics will eventually point with suspicion to his close
>connections
during this time to an international LSD-smuggling cartel,
>the
Brotherhood of Eternal Love, which is rumored to be a CIA front. The
>Brotherhood
is controlled by Ronald Stark, whom an Italian High Court
>will
later conclude has been a CIA agent since 1960, and the
>Brotherhood's
funds are channeled through Castle Bank in the Bahamas, a
>known
CIA "proprietary." For two years Leary lives at Brotherhood
>headquarters,
located on a ranch in Laguna Beach. During this period,
>the
Brotherhood corners the U.S. market on LSD and begins distributing
>only
one variety of the drug, "Orange Sunshine." Stark says he plans to
>distribute
the product to CIA-backed guerillas fighting Chinese
>occupation;
he reportedly knows a high-placed Tibetan close to the Dalai
>Lama,
and wants to provide enough LSD to dose all Chinese troops in
>Tibet.
In the U.S., meanwhile, Stark provides enough Orange Sunshine to
>dose
the hippie culture and radical left many times over. This is the
>"bad
acid" on which Charles Manson's followers murder Sharon Tate, and
>on
which Hell's Angels stab to death a black man during a concert by the
>Rolling
Stones. The Summer of Love has been supplanted by a Season of
>Hate.
Because of this, many countercultural insiders -- including
>William
S. Burroughs, White Panther leader John Sinclair, and Merry
>Prankster
Ken Kesey -- will eventually entertain the theory that Stark,
>Leary,
and Orange Sunshine are all part of CIA plot to discredit and
>neutralize
the radical left. According to former radicals Martin Lee and
>Bruce
Shalin, widespread use of Orange Sunshine "contributed
>significantly
to the demise of the New Left, for it heightened the
>metabolism
of the body politic and accelerated all the changes going
>on...
In its hyped-up condition, the New Left burned itself out."
>
>http://home.dti.net/lawserv/leary.html
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:55:13 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary
a CIA Agent?
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I find
it hard to believe that Father Tim had any involvment with such a bogus
group
as the CIA! but i have learned also over the years that anything is
possible.
on a more persoanl note- I had many fine experiences on "Orange
Sunshine"
and cannot honestly say that it destroyed my involvment with the
Liberal
movement- the bull crap developed and handed down by the movement did
it for
me!
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:45:49 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: redemption/why not compassion
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I
heartily endorse your credo MC- compassion will be the saving grace of this
world-especially
if man can rise above false- or empty compassion- as is
preached
by so many false people!
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:38:47 EST
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From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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If your
speaking of the Howl Trail I know I've seen excerpts of it in the
past,
but I'm not sure if the complete transcript is available. It should be
accessable
as it is a public record, albeit 40 years old.
From what I
remember
Ginsberg wasn't in attendance at the trial itself... he was in
Tangier
living with Burroughs at that time. It
was really Ferlinghetti and
City
Lights along with Shigeyoshi Murao who happened to be at the cash
register
when the SFPD officers bought the book.
Jerry
Cimino
Fog
City
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:51:46 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary
a CIA Agent?
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for
best or most complete accounts, ACID DREAMS: the complete social history of
lds:
the cia the sixties, and beyond by martin a lee& bruce shlain
best
sociological source: STORMING HEAVEN; lsd and the american dream, jay
stevens.
best
fun: still is electric acid kool aide test
i hope
to have some copywrited (to the tale teller) tales i hope i hope some day
more
than less.
sitting
on my hands
that's
me in the corner,
hoping
mc
GTL1951
wrote:
> I
find it hard to believe that Father Tim had any involvment with such a bogus
>
group as the CIA! but i have learned also over the years that anything is
>
possible. on a more persoanl note- I had many fine experiences on "Orange
>
Sunshine" and cannot honestly say that it destroyed my involvment with the
>
Liberal movement- the bull crap developed and handed down by the movement did
> it
for me!
>
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:59:45 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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How
trail: east to west coast; west to east; mph benezedrin refills tokay, and
and pit
stops called by driver.
mc
Bigsurs4me
wrote:
> If
your speaking of the Howl Trail I know I've seen excerpts of it in the
>
past, but I'm not sure if the complete transcript is available. It should be
>
accessable as it is a public record, albeit 40 years old. From what I
>
remember Ginsberg wasn't in attendance at the trial itself... he was in
>
Tangier living with Burroughs at that time.
It was really Ferlinghetti and
>
City Lights along with Shigeyoshi Murao who happened to be at the cash
>
register when the SFPD officers bought the book.
>
>
Jerry Cimino
>
Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:01:03 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg/madame yr ignorance
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howl
trail,
she
wrote as an addendum,
to what
could have been
a
slightly
amusing
post
mc
Bigsurs4me
wrote:
> If
your speaking of the Howl Trail I know I've seen excerpts of it in the
>
past, but I'm not sure if the complete transcript is available. It should be
>
accessable as it is a public record, albeit 40 years old. From what I
>
remember Ginsberg wasn't in attendance at the trial itself... he was in
>
Tangier living with Burroughs at that time.
It was really Ferlinghetti and
>
City Lights along with Shigeyoshi Murao who happened to be at the cash
>
register when the SFPD officers bought the book.
>
>
Jerry Cimino
>
Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:17:20 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
Content-type:
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Marie,
Maybe
we should call it the "Hallelujah Trail"?!?
Decision
by Judge Clayton Horn... film at
eleven...
Jerry
Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:19:13 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the day before the day before i leave
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yeeehhhhaaaa.
off to
california with stardust and moombeams in myne eyes...
3 days
no none stop, except in chicago
hurtling
onward, hopefully during
sun
hours through the rockies
it's an
adventure
never
dared dream of
wahoooooooo!!!!!!!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:51:11 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Robbins vs. Beats
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>
Subject:
> Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
> Date:
> Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:23:00 -0800
> From:
> Eric Lytle
<e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
>
>
>
> Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title
>
> (sorry
>
> I can't be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as
>
> the
>
> leading gal who had these enormous thumbs. But anyway....of what I
>
> read of
>
> the book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story
>
> to the
>
> leading character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about
>
> how
>
> they met hitchhiking...pretty funny.
This post reminded me of that
>
> book.
>
>
>
> Diane.
>
>
>
> Such irony. An old girlfriend gave me this book, saying that it was
>
better than all those Kerouac books I was reading. I was never able to
>
get into it, and even now it sits in my
books-started stack. Maybe
>
I'll read on until she meets JK. I
don't know how many Robbins fans
>
there are on this list, but we might be
due for a discussion here. Any
>
Robbins readers up for a comparison vs. the Beats?
>
> -E
No
comparison, dude--Robbins--Humour sarcasm and witticisms,
Beats--sarcasm and
witticisms, with a dash of
humour--
wait,
let me think on this some more....
You
really should read "Even Cowgirls get the Blues" but i believe his
peice
de resistance to be "Skinny Legs and All." Do read any and all
books
by Robbins, it tends to make you a richer human being....Don't get
put off
by his reference to Kerouac in "Cowgirls", I think he did that
more to
pay homage than to poke fun. It does
take awhile to get into a
Robbins
novel, but once there you find you can't put them down...
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:00:02 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: two words
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>
>
> And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
>
> life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>
>
but the legend as a whole he "says" is a comedy. of course, i guess the
>
tragedy could be him thinking comedy in tragedy and then someone might
>
find the comic in that and it could go on and on and on.....
>
>
david rhaesa
>
salina, Kansas
>
>
p.s. called some receptionist an idiot
over the phone but finally got a
>
doctor's appointment for my cold :)
David:
two
words--Shakespearean Tragedies
two
more words--Zinc Lozenges.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:05:22 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: MORE ON ROBBINS VS. BEATS
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>
>
Subject:
> Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
> Date:
> Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:10:00 EST
> From:
> GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
>
>
>
God! I tried reading that book too! the back blurb about Kerouac got me to buy
>
it- what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a serious
>
one- much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
>
interesting.
>
Gene
P.S.--oH
please oh please if you have not seen the movie DO NOT SEE IT
I
REPEAT DO NOT SEE IT!!!!!!
Even
tho Gus Van Sant directed it and Uma Thurman starred--even she
could
not save that sorry piece of cinema!@!!!!!!
cathy
READ
THE BOOK READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:13:57 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Robbins vs. Beats
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I like
Tom Robbins a lot, even though I think he has a lot of trouble
ending
his books. The first two ("Another
Roadside Attraction" and "Even
Cowgirls
Get The Blues") really captured me, but most of his subsequent
novels
always left me hanging. They would
build so beautifully and
excitingly,
but leave me feeling unsatisfied and unsated in the end. Thus
I was
doubly pleased with his latest, "Half Asleep In Frog Pajamas," which
really
did come through for me in the final stretch.
Just
MHO.
Jym
Cathy
Wilkie wrote:
> No
comparison, dude--Robbins--Humour sarcasm and witticisms,
> Beats--sarcasm and witticisms, with a dash of
> humour--
>
>
>
wait, let me think on this some more....
>
>
You really should read "Even Cowgirls get the Blues" but i believe his
>
peice de resistance to be "Skinny Legs and All." Do read any and all
>
books by Robbins, it tends to make you a richer human being....Don't get
>
put off by his reference to Kerouac in "Cowgirls", I think he did
that
>
more to pay homage than to poke fun. It
does take awhile to get into a
>
Robbins novel, but once there you find you can't put them down...
>
>
>
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:33:55 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Antoine Maloney
<stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
Mime-Version:
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Brian,
My wife Elizabeth was in Vancouver and
Seattle this past summer and
her
homecoming present for me was "Allen Ginsberg: Howl" edited by Barry
Miles
and published by Harper Perrenial; large format paperback which
includes
facsimile versions of 'Howl' as well as various contemporaneous
correspondence
and material about the 'legal skirmishes'. Not transcripts as
such,
but does include excerpts of the decision and an appebdix called the
Legal
History of Howl.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at
themselves, for they shall never
cease
to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:37:39 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: the day before the day before i
leave
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marie,
have a
lovely trip,
and
make sure to tell us all about it when you return.
i'm
jealous,
there's
nothing better than the sound of the engine
the
windows down
and
your home behind you....
muchos
carinos, take care
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:55:23 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
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Gort,
Klaatu nicto borada!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:56:58 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
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In a
message dated 97-12-13 09:30:29 EST, you write:
<<
Slon
Wydawnictwo Literackie
Krakow
>>
Gort,
Klaatu nicto borada!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:56:05 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary
a CIA Agent?
In-Reply-To: <7802273d.3492bdfd@aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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hello,
the
agent Ronald Stark is a notorius agent involved in
the
dark conspirancy against the democracy here in italy (70s'-80s')
connected
with neo-nazis and neo-fascists (operation Stay Behind)
if
there's any connection with Tim Leary it's really a
very
dangerous bang to the public image of the countercultural
leader.
I hope, of course, it's not true but IF this is the fact
it's
very serious both on the side #1 drug spread and #2 nazism against
the
leftism.
Rinaldo.
--------
At
11.55 13/12/97 EST, Gene wrote:
>I
find it hard to believe that Father Tim had any involvment with such a
bogus
>group
as the CIA! but i have learned also over the years that anything is
>possible.
on a more persoanl note- I had many fine experiences on "Orange
>Sunshine"
and cannot honestly say that it destroyed my involvment with the
>Liberal
movement- the bull crap developed and handed down by the movement did
>it
for me!
>
Gene
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:59:22 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To: <4bfd8a2e.3493044d@aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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somebody
wrote:
>Gort,
Klaatu nicto borada!
>
>
Slawomir
Mrozek, is a player who wrote a very
beautiful
collected novel called "the elephant".
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:02:12 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To: <964e39b0.349304ac@aol.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
16.56 13/12/97 EST, you wrote:
>In
a message dated 97-12-13 09:30:29 EST, you write:
>
><<
>
Slon
>
Wydawnictwo Literackie
>
Krakow
> >>
>Gort,
Klaatu nicto borada!
>
i hope
you take seriously this pun as
slawomir
is a serious writer and play writer
from
polonia. this is all. have a look at
him
works they are very fine and subersive
against
every establishment in the eastern
lands.
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:05:09 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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In a
message dated 97-12-13 11:44:46 EST, you write:
<<
does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of the court transcripts
of
ginsberg defending himself in court
concerning freedom of speech?
brian
>>
Significant
portions are reprinted in Horn on Howl, Evergreen Review, V1. #4,
pgs.145-158...this
has been anthologized in several places.
I found it today
in A
Casebook on the Beat. edited by Thomas Parkinson.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:18:48 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: mystic fire videos at the library
MIME-Version:
1.0
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just
checked out two videos at the library:
Commissioner
of Sewers -- William S. Burroughs
and
Kerouac
by Antonelli
anybody
seen these already -- and are they worth watching?
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:58:06 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown"
<foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
In-Reply-To: <349309C8.4848@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Sat,
13 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
Commissioner of Sewers -- William S. Burroughs
Do
report back, Agent.
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- +
-- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Calling unrequested, undesired
email "Spam"
is an insult to the meat product.
And that's saying something.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:02:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Michael
R. Brown wrote:
>
> On
Sat, 13 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
>
> Commissioner of Sewers -- William S. Burroughs
>
> Do
report back, Agent.
>
"K9
K9"
"shift
coordinate points"
gonna
watch it later
mr.
webster
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:15:32 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: redemption
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There
is a Don Williams song written by Bob McDill called Good Old Boys
Like
Me. If you ain't ever heard it, you
ought too. My favorite lines
talk
about the expectation being discussed in this thread. They go
something
like this:
>
Nothing makes a sound in the night like the wind does,
> But
you ain't afraid if you're washed in the blood like I was.
>
The smell of cave jasmine through the window screen,
>
John R and the Wolfman kept me company,
> By
the light of the radio by my bed,
>
With Thomas Wolfe whispering in my head.
>
So, I
figure that if you are washed in the blood, grew up listening to
John R
and the Wolfman, and read Thomas Wolfe/Jack Kerouac, then you got
a shot
at redemption, cause that's what all that's about. And how about
the
chorus, it asks the question:
>
Chorus
> I
can still hear the the soft Southern winds in the live oak trees,
>
And those Williams boys still mean a lot to me, Hank and Tennessee.
> I
guess we're all gonna be what we're gonna be.
> So
what'll you do with Good old boys like me.
>
So, I
figure that's redemption: Wind
(Nature), Washed in the Blood
(Spiritual
Rebirth), John R, Wolfman, Thomas Wolfe, Tennessee Williams,
and
Hank Williams, with the wind in the Live Oak trees and a big old
full
moon coming up. That will just about do
it!
Praise
the Lord, can I get a witness!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:17:56 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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The
Antonelli film is pretty good, lotsa footage of Jack and some scenes
filmed
docu-drama style with an actor namedJack Coulter playing Kerouac. Good
jazz soundtrack. Haven't seen the Burroughs film...let us
know about it.
Your
reactions are always worth reading.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:25:51 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Jesus/Teacher/Compassion
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One of
the main reasons there have been very few Christians in the
history
of this cult is the difficulties of the teachings of Jesus
(Joshua)
The Christ. "Love your neighbor AS
you love yourself." I
think
that was what MC said in different words.
And what Jack ascribed
to
do. He learned he was too selfish and
could not do it. He wanted to
be
Mother Theresa. Thank God he
wasn't. Too bad it ate him alive.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:57:03 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
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>Gort,
Klaatu nicto borada!
yeah
and ringo starr and calling occupants of interplanetary craft
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:55:08 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
and Hank Williams, with the wind in the Live Oak trees and a big old
>
full moon coming up. That will just
about do it!
>
that's
a bad moon rising though - be careful of that trickster old moon.
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:21:30 EST
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From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: some del dharma@ the St.Marks Poetry
Project
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bouna sera a tutti, come
stanno loro?
i
realize you probably had some threads whisping around last week on this
subject
but i just re-subscribed to the list today and wondered about the
ST.MARKS
CELEBRATION of Some Of The Dharma last week.
did any of you NYers
go? *how
was it??* they, at the poetry project,
seem to have some thing
against
people who work or go to school, that is, they always hold their major
events
on the most remote nights of the week and it is surely frustrating.
allora, if anyone gets a chance, im dying (not
really) to hear about it, so
i'd
appreciate any mail, on- or off- list (again, im assuming you've all
talked
about it some already.) tante
grazie!!!
-- Ginny Browne.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:05:26 EST
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From: DawnDR <DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary
a CIA Agent?
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I have
to admit that I, too, would be disappointed in Leary --- but, then, I
was
disappointed in myself and others when
I learned nearly 20 years after
the
fact that I and anyone else involved with the National Student Association
(NSA)
of the '60s and early '70s was involved with the CIA. NSA was funded by
and
used by the CIA to further its own causes.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:13:34 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cassady? :)
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Just
found out tonight that i've got kinfolk named Cassady in Canoga
Park
California. Wonder if they're Beat? :)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:14:29 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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In a
message dated 97-12-13 18:20:00 EST, you write:
<<
Significant portions are reprinted in Horn on Howl, Evergreen Review, V1.
#4,
pgs.145-158...this has been anthologized in
several places. I found it today
in A Casebook on the Beat. edited by Thomas
Parkinson. >>
thank
you ever so much
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:15:46 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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In a
message dated 97-12-13 17:06:39 EST, you write:
<< My wife Elizabeth was in Vancouver and
Seattle this past summer and
her homecoming present for me was "Allen
Ginsberg: Howl" edited by Barry
Miles and published by Harper Perrenial;
large format paperback which
includes facsimile versions of 'Howl' as well
as various contemporaneous
correspondence and material about the 'legal
skirmishes'. Not transcripts as
such, but does include excerpts of the
decision and an appebdix called the
Legal History of Howl. >>
thank
you very much as well
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:29:55 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0b8617a07d8@[128.125.224.94]>
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>>Gort,
Klaatu nicto borada!
>
>
>yeah
and ringo starr and calling occupants of interplanetary craft
>
>
Cellografia
out of this planet
there's the Slon
Zamiatin,
Ilf,
Petrov
Borzecin 1930
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:28:33 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: 12 Mellow Hopes of Paradise
In-Reply-To: <964e39b0.349304ac@aol.com>
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amici,
a simple question: in the "L'angelo caduto"
(the
italian translation of "Angelheaded Hipster")
at page
205 there's a photo titled "La conferenza
dell'addormentato"
is this photo in the original
Turner's
book? i noticed the "L'angelo caduto"
has the
bio of some beat performers just updated
to
1997, perhaps the italian editor has added something...
grazie
e saluti,
rinaldo.
--------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:08:30 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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DCardKJHS
wrote:
>
>
The Antonelli film is pretty good, lotsa footage of Jack and some scenes
>
filmed docu-drama style with an actor namedJack Coulter playing Kerouac. Good
>
jazz soundtrack. Haven't seen the
Burroughs film...let us know about it.
>
Your reactions are always worth reading.
>
Dennis
no
fancy reactions. Commissioner of Sewers
has lots of clips of WSB
doing
readings and i just enjoy such things to death -- many of them
would
shift into background sort of videoclip things which i quite
frankly
didn't pay that much attention to for i tended to stay fairly
focused
on watching the old man do his stuff. i
thought the interviewer
was
fairly weak - he had some fairly basic questions to ask and wasn't
prepared
to improvise with the kind of follow-up questions that might
have
been fascinating. The answerer in my
opinion had his usual
interesting
angle in answering the questions (sometimes softballs thrown
up
which he chose to foul off for fun!) but then i had to think i saw a
few
synapses push through the forehead saying "who is this idiot
interviewer
anyway?!?!" when the follow-ups didn't come. but i imagine
it
would be easy for any mortal to forget how to form basic sentences in
the
presence of THE MAN. probably worth
seeing - but i'm a television
junkie
so i'd probably like that Last Time I committed Suicide thing
everyone
flames about....... :)
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:13:13 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: McClure's Marysville
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so i've
been doing some geneaological "research" for my family (my
method
consists of randomly surfing around and when i find someone who
MIGHT
be related somehow i send them an e-mail saying "I think we're
kin"
and then usually find out that i was right and that they have all
kinds
of information that i didn't know before.
soooo....
i decided i'd try a bit on my step-Dad's family and punched in
Marysville
Kansas and pushed the magic buttons and whooosh-boom-pop out
of the
vortex comes one of Levi's pages (i think) about McClure and the
mention
of "born in Marysville Kansas" -- well i'd known something of
him
being from Kansas but didn't realize Marysville.
Does
anyone know much about the McClure roots in Marysville? I'm
certain
that there's no relation involved -- but Marysville is a rather
small
little burg and some i thought perhaps some folks might know some
folks
and whatnot. What were McClure's
parents names?
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:28:54 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: THE HOWL TRIAL
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Just
thought I'd mention that Ferlinghetti talks about the Howl trial un
my
Column 27 http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column27.html , my
interview
with Lawrence almost 40 years ago. Also
has a few lines from
trial
transcript. Also in that column,
interview with famed lawyer Jake
Ehrlich
tells etymology of word FUCK. --Al
Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:34:50 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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In a
message dated 97-12-14 07:41:47 EST, you write:
<< probably worth seeing - but i'm a television
junkie so i'd probably like that Last Time I
committed Suicide thing
everyone flames about....... :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>>
David,
please! You know better than that. I'm a TV head too...I watch, but I
don't
necessarily like everything I see. You
SHOULD go ahead and rent that
godawful
film just tp see what the fuss was about.
Truly worthless crap. On
the
other hand,
have
you seen a lengthy filmed reading Bukowski did years ago where there is a
refrigerator
onstage full of beer which Buk consumes as he reads? I saw it
once
maybe ten years ago...don't have the title...but I think you'd really
enjoy
it. Did you rent that
Commish/Sewers? I want to see it.
Anyone
on the list familiar with that particular Bukowski film? If memory
serves,
it was filmed somewhere in San Francisco.
At the Fugazi, maybe?
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:28:43 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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DCardKJHS
wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-12-14 07:41:47 EST, you write:
>
>
<< probably worth seeing - but
i'm a television
> junkie so i'd probably like that Last Time I
committed Suicide thing
> everyone flames about....... :)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
> >>
>
David, please! You know better than
that. I'm a TV head too...I watch, but
I
>
don't necessarily like everything I see.
I can't
say I have much of a critical eye about such things. I mostly
watch
such matters for entertainment value -- and i'm a big fan of "BAD"
television
precisely because it's stupid.
I'm
well-trained in critical matters but am in pre-school as it were in
attempting
to apply these notions to ordinary life and literature and
the
arts. I'm not certain that the same
critical language and methods
can be
easily transposed from non-fiction and non-literate <grin>
subject
matters across the great divide as it were to the realm of
literature. As i become exposed -- GRADUALLY -- to more
of such STUFF
hopefully
i'll see various pathways.
You
SHOULD go ahead and rent that
>
godawful film just tp see what the fuss was about.
I doubt
seriously that i'll find it here. In
the event (as opposed to
IF - an
old nation of islam friend spent a whole day on the differences
<grin>)
that my move to Denver works out i'll have a much better chance.
Truly
worthless crap. On
>
the other hand,
>
have you seen a lengthy filmed reading Bukowski did years ago where there is a
>
refrigerator onstage full of beer which Buk consumes as he reads? I saw it
>
once maybe ten years ago...don't have the title...but I think you'd really
>
enjoy it.
I've
only heard of Bukowski at this point -- and might have heard enough
to
bluff in a cocktail party on a campus somewhere --- but can't say i
know
much of anything about him and definitely haven't seen the one
you're
talking about.
Did you
rent that Commish/Sewers? I want to see
it.
The
local library had it. I was quite
surprised. It must have been a
recent
purchase on their part. I had a
conversation about WSB with one
of the
big shot librarians shortly after his death and maybe it had a
slight
effect on purchasing decisions. The
nice thing about the library
is it
falls into the kind of videos that one checks out like a book FOR
A
MONTH.
>
Anyone on the list familiar with that particular Bukowski film? If memory
>
serves, it was filmed somewhere in San Francisco. At the Fugazi, maybe?
>
Dennis
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:55:03 EST
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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In a
message dated 97-12-14 08:40:25 EST, you write:
<<
You SHOULD go ahead and rent that
godawful film just tp see what the fuss was
about. Truly worthless crap. On
the other hand, >>
i don't
want to start the argument again, but the film did have some redeeming
qualities.
to tell you the truth, i hadn't read anything beat until after i
saw the
film. maybe its just my perspective, but i liked it. there. enough
said.
don't flame me, please.
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:57:41 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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In a
message dated 97-12-14 10:37:05 EST, you write:
<<
to bluff in a cocktail party on a campus somewhere >>
cocktail
parties on campus???!!! what school is this???
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:00:31 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
In-Reply-To: <d8f1a7b8.3493e07d@aol.com>
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I
rented this movie last night and I enjoyed it but I have a question.
Keanu
Reeve's character,Harry,...who was that supposed to be? And that guy
Ben?
Who was that? I didn't recognize anyone from Beat lore in that movie
except
for Neal and Joan.
~Nancy
PS
Great soundtrack,though
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:13:13 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: 12 DAYS OF CHRISTMAS
Comments:
To: ducksquack@hotmail.com, frank@beacham.com, beacham@radiomail.net,
bearlife@iAmerica.net,
dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca,
belile@earthlink.net, preparim@mbox301.swipnet.se,
benjamin@creativeimagery.com,
techsupport@bellatlantic.net,
bigchief@bigmagic.com,
vbippart@sover.net, flameon@mindspring.com,
lew.blanck@usa.net,
gracie456@aol.com, jablonk@pi.net,
FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
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Every
Year, I used to send out holiday greetings to an
ever-growing
list of friends, acquaintances and those I wished
to know or to
stay in
touch
with, a consequence of the fact that I'd been more or less
banished
from the public prints by the scum bags I used to work
with
and
for at
the New York Post for no good reason.
Since I began
writing
my
BLACKLISTED
JOURNALIST column on the Internet, it's as if those
not
plugged
into the Web no longer exist for me.
Besides, broke and
busier
as I
continue to be, I don't have the funds for postage and
printing
and
I don't
have time to send out greetings by snail mail.
However,
last
Christmas,
my good friend, David Kapralik, also known as Ilili,
sent me
a
cybergreeting so unique that I now feel compelled to forward
it to
all
on my
Email list as part of my own greeting.
With all good
wishes
for
the
season, for the year and for the rest of your lives, here is
my
appropriated
cybergreeting. --Love, Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
Subject:
12 Days Of Xmas
Date:
Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:21:32 -1000
From:
iliili@maui.net (David Kapralik)
To:
blackj@mail.bigmagic.com
>
>(Make
your e-mail screen as large as possible to ensure that
this
design isn't
>forced
to "wrap" at the end of a line.
That messes up the
design.)
>
>:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>
> _______) _______) ,__) ____, ____,
> (--||_, _ (--| _ | _
(--| \ _ , (--/ \
,_,
> _|| |(/_
_|(_|_)(/_|\/(/_
_|_/(_|\|/_)_
\_/_|_
> (
|__, ( ( ,__| ,__|
>
> ____,,__) ,__)
> (--/ `|_,,_' ,-|-,_,_,
_ ,
> / | || |/_)| | | |(_|/_)
> \__, |__,
|__,
>
>
>
> On
the Twelfth Day of Christmas, my true love gave to me:
>
Twelve Drummers Drumming
>
> .-} .-} .-}
> |_| |_| |_|
> (_) (_) __
(_) .---.
> | \ .--. | \.'
'. | \/ \
> |\_|--o ) |\_|--o
; |\_|--o |
> |:| '--' |:|'.__.'
|:|\ /
> |:| |:| |:| `---`
> |:|_ |:|_ |:|_
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> .-.
.-. .-. .-.
.-. .-. .-.
.-. .-.
> |M|
|E| |R| |R|
|Y| |X| |M|
|A| |S|
> (_)
(_) (_) (_) (_)
(_) (_) (_)
(_)
> /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\
/\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\
> [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX]
[XXX] [XXX] [XXX]
> |||
||| ||| |||
||| ||| |||
||| |||
> |||
||| ||| |||
||| ||| |||
||| |||
> _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_
_|||_ _|||_ _|||_
>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>
>Eleven
Pipers Piping
> _
_ _ _ _ _
_ _ _ _
_
> ,/_)
,/_) ,/_) ,/_)
,/_) ,/_) ,/_)
,/_) ,/_) ,/_)
,/_)
> (")
(") (") (")
(") (") (")
(") (") (")
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> /I\
/I\ /I\ /I\
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/I\ /I\ /I\
/I\
> (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\)
(/^\) (/^\) (/^\)
(/^\)
> |||
||| ||| |||
||| ||| |||
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|||
> |||
||| ||| |||
||| ||| |||
||| ||| |||
|||
> _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_
_|||_ _|||_ _|||_
_|||_
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
Ten Lords A-Leaping
>
> w w
> w 0__
\0__
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>
>
>
>
Nine Ladies Dancing
>
> |~
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/""\
> /~~\ /____\ _/)(\_ /``\ /____\
> /____\ /""\
/____\ ()
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> /____\
>
>
Eight Maids A-Milking
>
>
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>
(\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-'
;--`
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_
|
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o) 8~8 (o o)
8~8 (o o) 8~8 (o
o)
8~8 ,/
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> `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\||
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>
^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^
>
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o) 8~8 (o o)
8~8 (o o) 8~8 (o
o)
8~8,/
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>
^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^
>
>
>
Seven swans A-Swimming
>
> ___ ___ ___ ___
___ ___ ___
> /,_ \
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_,
> |/ )/
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|
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>
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
>
>
>
> Six
Geese A-Laying
>
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>
>
>
Five Golden Rings
>
> .-. .-.
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> ((_)) ((_)) ((_)) ((_))
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> '-' '-'
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>
>
>
>
Four Calling Birds
>
> ___ ___ ___ ___
> ('v') ('v')
('v') ('v')
> (( )) (( ))
(( )) (( ))
>
-/-"---"---/-"---"---/-"---"---/-"---"--
>
>
>
>
Three French Hens
>
> (\ }\
(\ }\ (\ }\
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>
>
Two Turtle Doves
>
> _ _
>
> <')_,/ <') ,/
> (_==/ (_==/
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>
>
>
>
And a Partridge in a Pear Tree
> _
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> /@"@@@@@()@
> @@()@@()@@@@
> @@@O@@@@()@@@
> @()@@\@@@()@@
> @()@||@@@@@
> @@||@@@
> ||
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>
> __,_,_,___) _______
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