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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 04:04:35 -0500
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Subject: File: "BEAT-L LOG9801"
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:36:06 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997
In-Reply-To: <4137cc00.34aacba7@aol.com>
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>I
am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of the
>chickens.
Explain, please?
> GT
Wish I
could provide more details, but my understanding is that the monks
released
many, many fish back into the sea as a spiritual attonment for the
slaughtering
of the chickens. Read a note that they released a ship's catch
of
fish. Many hundreds of them.
Here in
Madison it will be 1998 in 20 minutes.
My best
to you all in the new year.
Peace
and justice,
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 02:27:04 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Happy New Year
Comments:
To: Rounders List <hmr@olywa.net>,
Loudon List
<loudon@world.std.com>,
Irene Apalsch
<momandmike@juno.com>,
John D Barton
<jdbarton@unm.edu>,
Linda Beck <beckl@milwaukee.tec.wi.us>,
Jim D Deuchars
<deuchars@juno.com>, Mary Gardner <rgardner@up.net>,
Bryan Kanieski
<JKanieski@aol.com>, Gary Maynard <manog@aol.com>,
George Maynard
<chjm47f@prodigy.com>,
Hudson Maynard <maynard5@olypen.com>,
Jack C Maynard
<chjm47a@prodigy.com>,
Jackie Maynard
<maynardj@ucs.orst.edu>,
Chris Mooney
<cmooney@wvu.edu>, Jodie Mooney <jodie@calkinslaw.com>,
Fritz Schuler
<goldenrg@lakefield.net>,
Bob Weeth <BWEETH@CENTURYINTER.NET>, Sarah Westbrook
<smm@flash.net>,
Ann Wichmann
<wichmann@co.dane.wi.us>
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Good
morning, America, how are ya?
Just
got home from a wonderful gathering of friends, singing in the new
year
with guitars, mandolins, fiddle, washboard, harmonica, and conga dru=
m,
laughing,
eating, talking, telling stories, and sharing the warmth of
loving
friendship with each other. At midnight
we all hugged and kissed
and
sang "Auld Lang Syne"...starting out with tongue slightly in cheek,
b=
ut
by the
end the beauty of that fine old Scots song transcended the clich=E9
and
drew us all together. And one and all
were so sweet, assuring me tha=
t
1998
was going to be a much better year for me.
I can't think of a nicer
way I
would have wanted to spend tonight.
Wishing
all of you, far and wide, the very best of everything in 1998!
Love,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:21:24 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: BRION GYSIN (WAS Re: Permutation poems)
In-Reply-To: <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>
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At
17.31 30/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:
>what
the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much
about
>this
sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it
>is
in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?
>thanks
so much.
>
here an
example by brion gysin
http://switch.sjsu.edu/switch/sound/articles/wendt/folder4/ngbg1.htm
RUB OUT
THE WRITE WORD
RUB OUT
RIGHT WORD THEE
RUB OUT
WORD RITE THEE
RUB OUT
THE WORD RIGHT
RUB OUT
RIGHT THE WORD
RUB OUT
WORD THEE WRITE
RUB OUT
THE WORD RIGHT OUT
RUB THE
RIGHT OUT WORD
RUB THE
OUT WORD RIGHT
WORD OUT RIGHT
RIGHT WORD OUT
OUT RIGHT WORD
RUB
WORD RIGHT OUT THE
RUB
WORD OUT RIGHT THE
RUB
WORD THE RIGHT OUT
RIGHT THE OUT
OUT THE RIGHT
THE OUT RIGHT
WORD
RUB THE RIGHT OUT
RUB RIGHT OUT THE
OUT RIGHT THE
THE OUT RIGHT
RIGHT THE OUT
OUT THE RIGHT
WORD
RIGHT RUB THE OUT
THE
OUT
RUB
THE
OUT
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:50:03 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
In-Reply-To: <aa5eb9fe.34aabde5@aol.com>
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Buon 1
gennaio 1988,
thanks
a lot for yr comments. they remain in my memory.
"My works comprises one vast book
like
Proust's except that my remembrances
are
written on the run instead of
afterwards in
a sick bed."---JACK KEROUAC
saluti
a tutti voi da
Rinaldo.
---------------------
At
16.49 31/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:
>maybe
i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think he
>deserves
to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about marcel
>proust?
saroyan?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:56:25 EST
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From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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The
other night I watched the series on the 1950's
(on tape) presented by the
History
Channel. Overall, quite
interesting. It was loosely based on
David
Halberstam's
book, The Fifties.
The
next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on the
Beat
Generation. Pretty good stuff -
interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen
Ginsberg
among others. At the very end of the
segment, host Roger Mudd
commented
that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he
disassociated
himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's". Then
he
added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out
American
flags to be burned. Kerouac retreved
the flags and neatly folded
them."
!! W H
A T !! This is pure bullshit that Mudd
probably heard at a right-wing
cocktail
party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of
people. None of the many biographers (about 10) of
Kerouac or Ginsberg ever
described
anything like this flag burning rally.
Instead, the source for
Mudd's
fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and
the
Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964.
Amidst the partying of the
Pranksters,
Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the
floor,
or on a chair or couch). The flag was
probably being used as a scarf
or cape
by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in
1964. Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he
did neatly fold the flag
and set
it aside. He left shortly thereafter
and was never a fan of the
Pranksters. Various biographers have different spins on
the incident, but
what
the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.
I don't
know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags. I doubt it, given
his
lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until
the
1980's.
What
should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
highly
paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than
used
toilet
paper. He can spin history anyway he
wants but to report an incident
based
on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
Does
anyone know where I could write Mudd,
Halberstam, or the History
Channel?
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:02:20 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: afternoon blues today
In-Reply-To: <aa5eb9fe.34aabde5@aol.com>
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i called you at 11 pm
(sure)
the cold (of course)
persons
don't know
the sound is an antithief device
than
a carol
be happy! BE HAPPY!!
---
rinaldo
31thdec98
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:00:44 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Sorry
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Bentz--Happy
new year. What did I warn you
about? You are welcome to
all the
bandwidth you ant!
James
R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
Sorry
>
> I
knew it.
>
James warned me.
>
But anyway,
> I
still blew it.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:51:35 PST
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From: marie countyman
<mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: happy holidays and a good year to all
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hi all:
my 1998
is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should
say it
started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to
greet
me!
adventures
abound.
expect
some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.
marie
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:03:41 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: BeatSuperNovaUpdated
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> AT
that rate why not Villon?
How far
to extend this is Rinaldo's problem, thank god
James
> At
16.49 31/12/97 EST, Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM> wrote:
>
>maybe i missed him, but i don't remember seeing rimbaud on there. i think
he
>
>deserves to be on there as much as any of those people. and what about
marcel
>
>proust? saroyan?
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:01:28 PST
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From: marie countyman
<mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: ho ho holicay
Content-Type:
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dear
patricia, we will keep the hugs rolling. leon here too - lots of
hugging
to do.
the
best of the best to you!
mc
>
>I
am envious of you all, getting together in calif , sherri give marie
a
>hug,
james, give sherri a hug. etc. my self i usually don't hug but
if
>i
see david on his way back to salina i will give him a hug. We have
>been
warned to watch out for beat zen signs so, i will watch out, eager
>always
to advance the warpage of an old religion. I am not sure that i
>see
zen in catholicism but it is probaly every and nowhere. so also i
>will
watch out in case jacks catholic whims start invading my
>conciousness.
>kick
your heels
>patricia
>
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:59:02 -0500
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From: Michael Czarnecki
<peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: happy holidays and a good year to
all
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>hi
all:
>my
1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should
>say
it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to
>greet
me!
>adventures
abound.
>expect
some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.
>marie
Did you
notice you wrote 87 in the above? Now, I know you haven't been out
there
10 years already! As for myself, I keep seeing 1998 and thinking
that's
not right, it's supposed to be 88.
Yes, a
year full of adventure, creativity and growth for everyone!
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:20:06 EST
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From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
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Subject:
Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Howard---
im sure the
Hist.Channel has email, ya know? like,
"comments@historychannel.com"
or something. perhapsjust watch for their
advertisements
or something. not too hard to find, im sure.
that was the 1
episode
i missed of that series. :(
-Ginny
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:37:42 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
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From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Question
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
Jack Kerouac and Thomas Wolfe have been criticized for being story
>
tellers, or just writing down what happened.
It seems to me that there
> is
a large element of fiction involved, more than most would like to
>
see, but it all is based on reality.
>
> My
question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know have
>
some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine. If
>
Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling
>
what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to be able
> to
make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration. I think
> it
would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine. What
> do
you think?
>
> --
>
>
Peace,
>
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
BENTZ: It's taken me a long time to reply to this E
but of course Jack
was a
great writer who could endow his words with magic. And what's
wrong
with being a story-teller. Our greatest
writers are nothing but
story-tellers. I'd rather read a story than a stock
proposal. I know
Jack
wrote what he saw and felt. He had the
same kind of dedication to
truth
that I now have. --Al
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 15:48:57 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Al Aronowitz
<blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg interview
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> I
don't recall seeing this posted to the Beat-L before, but I thought
>
this was a cool discussion of Dylan's impact on Allen by Allen. Notice
>
that darned ole Charles Plymell was right in the middle of this thing.
> I
got this off an old post to the Dylan list.
>
>
> Q: Can you tell us how you met Bob Dylan and
>
> what your earliest impressions of
him were?
>
>
>
> AG: My earliest impressions of Dylan were, uh,
>
> on returning from India... My earliest
>
> impressions of Dylan were, on
returning from
>
> India via San Francisco, a young
poet, Charlie
>
> Plimel[?], took me aside at a
party in Belinas[?]
>
> and played me some records from a
new young
>
> singer, folk singer, and it was
the "Masters of
>
> War," I think, and
"I'll Stand," uh, "I'll Know
>
> My Song Well Before I Start
Singing," and "I'll
>
> Stand on the Sea Where All Can
Reflect or
>
> Mountain Where All Can Reflect
It." And I was
>
> really amazed. It seemed to me that the torch
>
> had been passed, sort of, from,
uh, Kerouac or
>
> from the, uh, beat, uh, genius on
to another
>
> generation completely, who had
taken it, uh, and
>
> he'd taken it and made something
completely
>
> original out of it, and that life
was in good
>
> hands. I remember bursting into tears.
Because
>
> the, uh, proclamation of
confidence was so
>
> certain and, uh, the, uh,
humility was apparent,
>
> and at the same time the
confidence in, uh, his
>
> own voice or his own inspiration,
which is, I
>
> think, some of the secret of
genius which is, uh,
>
> like in Whitman: "I celebrate myself and sing
>
> myself. What I shall assume, you shall assume."
>
> That confidence of self-acceptance,
or
>
> self-empowerment, the
empowerment. Uh, so I
>
> heard just that first record, and
I was pretty
>
> amazed by it. Then, uh, cause, you know, we had
>
> learned from earlier people. I had learned from
>
> William Carlos Williams and William Burroughs,
>
> who was much older, and, uh,
every generation
>
> produces its own spontaneous
genius, sort of. So
>
> it seemed to me that somebody had
emerged with
>
> their own, out of cocoon, with
their own life,
>
> with their own scepter, so to
speak. Then, uh, I
>
> got to New York with Peter
Orlovsky, and we were
>
> staying at the, it's, uh, above,
upstairs from
>
> the Eighth Street Bookstore,
which was at that
>
> time a big, interesting,
intelligent bookstore, Uh, really
>
> admirable -for, for, for
journalism it was a
>
> really well-researched and even
piece at a time
>
> when, uh, the notion, the
journalistic idea was
>
> beatniks, it was cockroaches,
and, uh, dirty
>
> houses and uh, some idiot, uh,
media idea
>
> ignoring the literature and
ignoring the actual
>
> brilliance of the people like
Kerouac or
>
> Burroughs or Gary Snyder or
others. So in '59,
>
> Aronowitz had written a very good
series. And
>
> he'd actually gone to the West
Coast, interviewed
>
> Michael McClure, Neal Cassidy,
uh, the poet Gary
>
> Snyder I think, or friends of
Snyder, Snyder was
>
> in Japan. Maybe Philip Whalen he saw and uh,
>
> McClure turned him on to some
grass which
> > enriched his account of, uh, serialized
account
>
> of the poets. So Aronowitz I had known for four
>
> or five years and Aronowitz
brought Dylan to a
>
> welcome party. Peter and I had been around the
>
> world actually and spent a year and
a half in
>
> India. And I'd spent some time in Japan in a Zen
>
> setting with Gary Snyder and then
come back to a
>
> big poetry conference in
Vancouver and then spent
>
> time in San Francisco, heard
Dylan on the radio,
>
> on the phonograph and then got to
New York, got a
>
> welcome home party and that was
the night that
>
> Dylan had come from the Emergency
Civil Liberties
>
> Committee banquet and had
renounced any role as
>
> sort of a political prophet for
them, and that is
>
> a left wing, uh, what, folk, uh,
fighter for
>
> causes. I don't think he wanted to be limited to
>
> that view and that
perspective. And so I
>
> remember coming up the stairs and
meeting him and
>
> I was really interested, because
I'd seen, heard
>
> his language. And he was kind of mysterious, but
>
> one of the first things he said
is he had
>
> explained, uh, uh, he had not
obeyed what their
>
> idea was and they were shocked
and horrified.
>
> But he felt that he had to make
his own statement
>
> and have his own independence
rather than being a
>
> replica of, uh, folk song hero,
conforming to
>
> their expectations as somebody
in, responding to
>
> every civil liberties case, every
case of
> > discrimination, every strike, the
traditional
>
> sing outs, folk music, left wing
party line. And
>
> I thought it was pretty smart of
him, though, he
>
> may have not had the skillful
means to do it in
>
> which a way that encouraged them
to do what they
>
> wanted to do
>
>
>
> --
>
>
Peace,
>
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
BENTZ: Yeah, I was t he invisible man in those
days, working behind the
scenes
to pull everyone of like minds together.
I was invisible so they
all
overlooked me, took me for granted and eventually were too quick to
write
me off. --Al
--
***************************************
Al
Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:07:47 -0500
Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "D. Patrick Hornberger"
<"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>
Organization:
EASTWIND PUBLISHING
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Hpark4
wrote:
>
>
The other night I watched the series on the 1950's (on tape) presented by the
>
History Channel. Overall, quite
interesting. It was loosely based on
David
>
Halberstam's book, The Fifties.
>
>
The next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on the
>
Beat Generation. Pretty good stuff -
interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen
>
Ginsberg among others. At the very end
of the segment, host Roger Mudd
>
commented that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he
>
disassociated himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the
1960's". Then
> he
added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out
>
American flags to be burned. Kerouac
retreved the flags and neatly folded
>
them."
>
> !!
W H A T !! This is pure bullshit that
Mudd probably heard at a right-wing
>
cocktail party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of
>
people. None of the many biographers
(about 10) of Kerouac or Ginsberg ever
>
described anything like this flag burning rally. Instead, the source for
>
Mudd's fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and
>
the Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964. Amidst the partying of the
>
Pranksters, Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the
>
floor, or on a chair or couch). The
flag was probably being used as a scarf
> or
cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in
>
1964. Kerouac considered this
disrespectful and he did neatly fold the flag
>
and set it aside. He left shortly
thereafter and was never a fan of the
>
Pranksters. Various biographers have
different spins on the incident, but
>
what the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.
>
> I
don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags. I doubt it, given
>
his lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until
>
the 1980's.
>
>
What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
>
highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts
than used
>
toilet paper. He can spin history
anyway he wants but to report an incident
>
based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
>
>
Does anyone know where I could write Mudd,
Halberstam, or the History
>
Channel?
>
>
Howard Park
Hold On
--it seems to me Ginsberg told that story some place --- I would
be
careful drawing quick conclusions on JK when it come to
Patriotism--actually
the event and JK's response sounds like him---
anti-patriotism
was not a paert of beats ---anti-government was.
Let me
know if you find the Ginsberg reference
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:23:56 EST
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From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Steve
Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of Jack
wearing
the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and looking
very
goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I believe
was one
of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York. In one of the
photo's
you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod. As Kesey
filmed
a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?
Jerry
Cimino
Fog
City
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:25:41 EST
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i
didn't mean that the monks' chants were humourous, but that it was a funny
coincidence
that i heard about it from you right after i had just heard about
it on
the news.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:41:51 EST
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i don't
understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or
'just
writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to
tell a
good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:59:45 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997
In-Reply-To:
<v0311070ab0d0cd18d7e4@[156.46.45.120]>
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I saw a
picture of a monk heaving fish into the sea.
I
like
the verisimilitude of it. A few foul
off the earth,
a few
fish cast into the sea. The monks had
the right idea.
It adds
a funny twist to an already somewhat funny story, of
orientals
driven into a chicken-killing frenzy by a malignant
disease
that is threatening their lives! To add
a religious
element
to this is to put icing on the cake.
Mike
Rice
At
11:36 PM 12/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>I
am not real sure i see the humor in the monks chanting for the souls of
the
>>chickens.
Explain, please?
>> GT
>
>Wish
I could provide more details, but my understanding is that the monks
>released
many, many fish back into the sea as a spiritual attonment for the
>slaughtering
of the chickens. Read a note that they released a ship's catch
>of
fish. Many hundreds of them.
>
>Here
in Madison it will be 1998 in 20 minutes.
>
>My
best to you all in the new year.
>
>Peace
and justice,
>
>j
grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:54:52 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
Comments:
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In
response to Mr. Hornberger -
The
point is pretty simple. The incident
Mr. Mudd described never happened.
Period. Whet people make up or repeat stories that
are untrue, for political
or
other purposes, they should be held up to ridicule.
It is
quite a stretch to equate the real episide - Kerouac's respect for the
flag he
found at the Prankster party, with what Mudd described "Ginsberg was
at a
rally passing out American flags to be burned..." The two situations are
very,
very different.
The
real point of Mudd's fantasy is a very political one. Mudd equates the
anti-war
and counter-cultural movements with anti-americanism. That still
resonates
on many of the issues of today. Certain
right-wingers also accused
George
McGovern, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton of flag burning - without
any
evidence whatsoever. None. Burning the flag is an anti-american action,
a very
powerful symbolic action, especially for older generations. What Mudd
was
trying to get accross was that Allen Ginsberg, who can no longer speak for
himself,
was some sort of flag burning commie.
That is simply untrue.
Ginsberg
had the honor of being kicked out of Cuba and communist
Czechoslovakia. Ginsberg loved America every bit as much as
Kerouac, although
AG was
undoubtedly way to the left of Kerouac and the American mainstream.
Again,
I've read all the major bios of Kerouac, one of the most extensively
researched
figures of the recent past. Nothing like the incident Mudd
described
is in any of the bios. Facts and truth
do matter.
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:44:24 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
In-Reply-To: <3b18a2f9.34abcabb@aol.com>
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Sure, I wrote something like
www.historychannel.com and said
I loved
the Fifties. I'm a little worried that
you say you saw
the
Fifties the other day, since my own TV schedule said they
were
running the whole 8 hours today (Thurs) from 11 a.m. to
7 p.m.
today. I'm taping it while we
speak. I have heard
the
story about Kerouac and the flag somewhere, also. I
probably
heard Mudd tell the story you find untrue.
Jack
wasn't
a hippie, nor was he on the Bus. I
don't think it
hurts
his legacy that he did not want to party with Wavy
Gravy.
Mike
Rice
At
11:56 AM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>The
other night I watched the series on the 1950's
(on tape) presented by
the
>History
Channel. Overall, quite
interesting. It was loosely based on
David
>Halberstam's
book, The Fifties.
>
>The
next to last segment of the eight hour series focused on Elvis, and on
the
>Beat
Generation. Pretty good stuff -
interviews with Joyce Johnson and Allen
>Ginsberg
among others. At the very end of the
segment, host Roger Mudd
>commented
that Kerouac differed from many of the Beats because he
>disassociated
himself from the "rampant anti-Americanism of the 1960's".
Then
>he
added, "Kerouac appeared at a rally where Allen Ginsberg was passing out
>American
flags to be burned. Kerouac retreved
the flags and neatly folded
>them."
>
>!!
W H A T !! This is pure bullshit that
Mudd probably heard at a right-wing
>cocktail
party and then passed on, via national television, to millions of
>people. None of the many biographers (about 10) of
Kerouac or Ginsberg ever
>described
anything like this flag burning rally.
Instead, the source for
>Mudd's
fantasy undoubtedly is the often described incedent when Ken Kesey and
>the
Merry Pranksters paid Kerouac a visit in 1964.
Amidst the partying of
the
>Pranksters,
Kerouac did notice an American flag lying around (perhaps the
>floor,
or on a chair or couch). The flag was
probably being used as a scarf
>or
cape by one of the colorful Pranksters, something that was uncommon in
>1964. Kerouac considered this disrespectful and he
did neatly fold the flag
>and
set it aside. He left shortly
thereafter and was never a fan of the
>Pranksters. Various biographers have different spins on
the incident, but
>what
the foregoing is pretty much the consensus as reported by eyewitnesses.
>
>I
don't know if Allen Ginsberg ever was into burning flags. I doubt it,
given
>his
lifelong sense for PR and the fact that flag burning was outlawed until
>the
1980's.
>
>What
should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
>highly
paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts than
used
>toilet
paper. He can spin history anyway he
wants but to report an incident
>based
on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
>
>Does
anyone know where I could write Mudd,
Halberstam, or the History
>Channel?
>
>Howard
Park
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:41:51 -0500
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At
05:41 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>i
don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or
>'just
writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to
>tell
a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.
>
>
Who is
being cricized for being a storyteller.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:06:25 -0500
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From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems (fwd)
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This
was Florian's response, which I think people might find interesting.
Neil
----------
Forwarded message ----------
Date:
Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:13:01 +0100 (MET)
From:
Florian Cramer <cantsin@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
To:
"Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject:
Re: Permutation poems
On Tue,
30 Dec 1997, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
There are Gysin permutation poems in _The Exterminator_, which was
>
published in 1960:
>
>
TITLE: The exterminator / William Burroughs, Brion Gysin. -
>
IMPRINT: San Francisco : Auerhahn Press, 1960.
>
NOTES: Narrative and poems. * Poems and calligraphs by Brion Gysin.
>
LANGUAGE: eng
>
PHYSICAL DESCRIPTION: 51 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
>
ASSOCIATED NAME(S): Gysin, Brion. * Haselwood, Dave L. - Book designer. *
> Haselwood, Dave L. - Printer. *
McIlroy, James F. - Printer. *
> Auerhahn Press - Private Press.
Thanks
very much for this reference. I will check out immediately whether
I can
get it here in Berlin.
>
>
Can you give a reference where I could find information about this?
>
The first book Burroughs wrote/assembled using fold-in texts-- _The Soft
>
Machine_ -- appeared in 1961 from The Olympia Press in Paris.
Then I
was mistaken. Marc Saporta's novel "Composition No.1" appeared in
1962,
Paris, Editions du Seuil.
>
Certainly does. The 100,000 sonnet book gets a lot of attention from
>
people doing work on hypertext theory and literature. And yes, both
>
Burroughs and Gysin were living in Paris in the early 60's.
I know
there has been a lot of research on Oulipo (=Queneau, Perec et.al.)
combinatorics,
but I wonder whether anyone has researched yet the
interrelatedness
of Gysin's/Burroughs', Saporta's, Queneau's and Moles'
approaches
to combinatory literature which all happened to be
conceptualized
around 1960 and in France.
By the
way, permutation poetry itself is much older than this. The
earliest
examples date back to the late Roman empire (Publilius Optatianus
Porfyrius'
Carmen XXV consists of five lines with each five words; the
words
permute against each other and from line to line. Porfyrius lived in
the
around 330 A.D.; his complete poems are published in a two volume
book:
Pvblilii Optatiani Porfyrii, Carmina, Torino: Paravia publ., 1973.)
>
Hope I've been of some assistance.
>
Thanks
a lot for your help!
Florian
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:09:16 -0500
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From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
In-Reply-To: <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>
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On Tue,
30 Dec 1997, Aeronwytru wrote:
>
what the heck is a permutation poem? help! i really don't know very much about
>
this sort of stuff and i hate not knowing things. can someone tell me what it
> is
in non-technical (read---> layman's) terms and send me a copy of one?
>
thanks so much.
The
easiest way to find out what a permutation poem is to read one. Here's
a Gysin
permutation poem that appears in The Exterminator:
RUB OUT
THE WORDS
RUB OUT
THE
WORDS RUB
OUT
THE WORDS
RUB
OUT THE
WORDS
RUB OUT
THE WORDS
RUB THE
WORDS OUT
RUB WORDS
THEE OUT
RUB OUT
WORDS THEE
RUB THE
OUT WORDS
RUB WORDS
OUT THEE
OUT THE
WORDS RUB
OUT WORDS
RUB THEE
OUT RUB
WORDS THEE
OUT THEE
RUB WORDS
OUT WORDS
RUB THEE
OUT RUB
THE WORDS
THE WORDS
RUB OUT
THEE RUB
WORDS OUT
THE OUT
RUB WORDS
THE WORDS
OUT RUB
THE RUB
OUT WORDS
THE OUT
WORDS RUB
WORDS RUB
OUT THEE
WORDS OUT
RUT THEE
WORDS THEE
OUT RUB
WORDS RUB
THEE OUT
WORDS OUT
THEE RUB
WORDS THEE
RUB OUT
Brion Gysin
And
here's my favourite poem of this genre, which isn't really a
permutation
poem per se, but a combninatorial one at the letter level. It
appeared
in Nichol's first book bp from Coach House, 1967:
turnips
are
inturps
are
urnspit
are
tinspur
are
rustpin
are
stunrip
are
piturns
are
ritpuns
are
punstir
are
nutrips
are
suntrip
are
untrips
are
spinrut
are
runspit
are
pitnurs
are
runtsip
are
puntsir
are
turnsip
are
tipruns
are
turpsin
are
spurtin
bpNichol
Although
the modus operandi and overriding concerns of Burroughs/Gysin and
the
concretists are often strikingly similar, their aims are widely
disparate.
For Burroughs the word is a viral agent of control, and
language
its medium of exchange. Cut-ups, collage, and gestural
calligraphy
were all attempts at finding freedom outside of language, a
non-linguistic
freedom in silence. Nichol was a self-professed lover of
language
and alphabet fetishist with an interest in language at play in
all its
forms: aural, semantic, tonal, visual. His work is more
investigative,
irreverent and celebratory, while Burroughs was deadly
serious
and perceived his work as dangerous, urgent and combative.
Just
some random thoughts on different, compelling artists whose central
concern
was language itself.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:17:51 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
Comments:
cc: Florian Cramer <cantsin@zedat.fu-berlin.de>
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I've
done a little looking into the permutation poems of Brion Gysin in
the
source materials I have. Here is a preliminary report:
>From
Ted Morgan's "Literary Outlaw": "Minutes to Go" was published
in
March
1960 in Paris and included permutation poems by Gysin. The only
specific
one mentioned is "Rub out the Word." I don't have Minutes to Go,
so I
can't tell you what else is there.
I do
have a copy of "The Exterminator", published later in 1960. It
contains
poems that permute the phrases "WHO SENDS THE MAN?", "KICK THAT
HABIT
MAN", "JUNK IS NO GOOD BABY", "CAN MOTHER BE WRONG?",
"SHORT TIME TO
GO",
"IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD", "RUB OUT THE WORDS", and
"PROCLAIM
PRESENT
TIME OVER". After the Rub out the Words permutation poem, there is
another
poem also called Rub out the Words, which is laid out identically
with
the first, but uses typographic symbols instead of words, where
rub =
#, out = $, the = %, words = &. The book closes with the straight
Rub out
the Word poem, then the typographic symbol poem, then "Proclaim
Present
Time Over", and finishes with 4 Gysin calligraphic works, which
are
gestural permutations of calligraphic strokes. The idea, as far as I
can
tell, is that Gysin rubs out the word by first permutating phrases so
that
they lose any singular meaning, becoming merely an arrangement
yielding
polysemous underpinnings when mixed; and secondly by a semiotic
shift
to typographic symbols, which shifts the signifier/signified
relationship
from letter-phonetic based representations with their aural
basis
to a purely visual sign. The word is finally rubbed out when words
are
lost to calligraphy without meaning, writing without communication,
signifiers
without a signified.
>From
the Brion Gysin CD "Mektoub": "In 1960 Gysin was asked to
present
sound
works for a broadcast on the BBC. Among those recorded for the event
were 'i
am that i am', 'recalling all active agents', and the 'pistol
poem'
which differed by permutating recordings of a gun firing from
varying
distances." All three BBC recordings from 1960 appear on the CD.
The two
poems with words start with Gysin reading the permutated poems,
and
then the reading itself is permutated by tape splices, speed-ups and
slow
downs. The CD was produced by Perdition Plastics 4216 N.Damen Chicago
Il
60618 USA Fax 312.327.3887
I have
a chap-book called "A William Burroughs Birthday Book" (1994,
Temple
Press, ISBN 1-871744-90-3) that has two relevant essays/stories.
One is
called "William Burroughs: a biological mistake" by Simon Strong.
He
briefly mentions the connection between Gysin/Burroughs and Oulipo as a
topic
worthy of further investigation: "The very least that Mr [Martin]
Gardner
deserves is a mention here since it is my express intention to
shamelessly
plagiarize the vast majority of this essay from his 1952 book
'(Fads
and Fallacies) in the Name of Science'. Mr Gardner and his work
were,
and still are, highly regarded by the members of Oulipo, the Ouvroir
de
Litterature Potentielle. This was a circle of literary experimenters
founded
in Paris in 1960 which would appear to have a number of
culture-spatial
co-ordinates in common with Mr. Burroughs as well as
sharing
geographical and chronological criteria. To my knowledge the one
has
never passed comment on the other, nor vice-versa. If anyone reading
this
essay has any ideas or information concerning this matter I would be
most
interested to be a party to it."
There
is another essay/story called "Nothing is True. Everything is
Permuted:
The Last Words of Hassan I Sabbah" by Paul Cecil that is of
interest.
The entire piece is an exploration of Gysin's thoughts on
permutations,
drawing from many sources, most notably "The Process" and
"Here
to Go". This is a must read. Paul Cecil then goes on to include
permutation
poems using Gysin/Burroughs phrases and a formula of his own
devising.
The chap-book was edited by Paul Cecil and has this in the
Biographical
Notes:
"For
a full catalogue of all Temple Press publications, or to contact any
of the
contributors to this project, please send an s.a.e or International
Reply
Coupon to:
Temple
Press, PO Box 227, Brighton, Sussex BN2 3GL.
(Phone:
0273 679129 / Fax: 0273 621284)"
The
book "Here to Go: Planet R101" has 6 listings under
"permutations" in
the
index, and from the number of references Cecil made in his essay, it
sounds
like "The Process" will have many more. Here to Go also includes a
Gysin
permutation poem that permutes the line
"ADEBC 14523 .$#-("
in
three columns all the way down the page.
Please
feel free to contact me for any clarifications, or if you have
specific
questions about any of the books listed above that I have (Here
to Go,
The Exterminator, A William Burroughs Birthday Book).
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:22:00 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SGI.3.96.971227210531.18998A-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-berlin.de>
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One
thing I forgot to mention when I posted the Gysin permutation poem
from
The Exterminator-- There was a very interesting typo that was in the
second
line of the "WORD" stanza in the original that I reproduced:
[snip]
WORDS RUB
OUT THEE
WORDS OUT
RUT THEE
WORDS THEE
OUT RUB
WORDS RUB
THEE OUT
WORDS OUT
THEE RUB
WORDS THEE
RUB OUT
[snip]
A lot
of interesting conclusions can be drawn from that one!
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:29:17 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
In-Reply-To: <da18fc3c.34a97634@aol.com>
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One
thing I forgot to mention when I posted the Gysin permutation poem
from
The Exterminator--there was a very interesting typo that was in the
second
line of the "WORD" stanza in the original that I reproduced
faithfully:
[snip]
WORDS RUB
OUT THEE
WORDS OUT
RUT THEE
WORDS THEE
OUT RUB
WORDS RUB
THEE OUT
WORDS OUT
THEE RUB
WORDS THEE
RUB OUT
[snip]
A lot
of interesting conclusions can be drawn from that one, and as
Burroughs
always said, there's no such thing as a coincidence.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:38:36 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Question
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I think
that goes back to an old post that I made.
The point was that "critics"
were
critical of Thomas Wolfe and Jack Kerouac for "just being storytellers or
reporters"
and lacking originality. Al Aronowitz
made a belated reply saying
that it
didn't matter that writers were just story tellers anyway and that Jack
pursued
the truth. I belive the post that you refer
to was merely stating that
the
critics were wrong or unfair.
But if
a thread were to get started on the writer as reporter/story teller, I
think
it could prove interesting.
mike
rice wrote:
> At
05:41 PM 1/1/98 EST, you wrote:
>
>i don't understand why they should be criticized for being strytellers or
>
>'just writing down the facts'. both of those are good things.the ability to
>
>tell a good story is great for the heart head and bottom line.
>
>
>
>
>
Who is being cricized for being a storyteller.
>
>
Mike Rice
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:03:52 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Question
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<HTML>
Bentz
and all
<P>This
may be an old thread that I just rediscovered in Mr. Aronowitz's
response
to it. I would argue that while JK and TW write very much
about
"real life" they select away the daily drugery or compress it to
focus
on the more interesting aspects of that life. Were they to
have
kept an hour by hour record of those lives they would no doubt be
still
wonderfully rendered, but a good deal nearer to the ordinariness
of our
own.
<P>James
Stauffer
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE>R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
<BR>.
<BR>>
<BR>>
My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know
have
<BR>>
some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine.
If
<BR>>
Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling
<BR>>
what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to
be able
<BR>>
to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration.
I think
<BR>>
it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine.
What
<BR>>
do you think?
<BR><A
HREF="http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:06:41 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
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Jerry
I am
quite sure that film of the event is probably in the Pranskter archive.
You
might
check the Kesey website to see if it is available on video.
James
Bigsurs4me
wrote:
>
Steve Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of Jack
>
wearing the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and looking
>
very goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I believe
>
was one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York. In one of the
>
photo's you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod. As Kesey
>
filmed a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?
>
>
Jerry Cimino
>
Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:00:20 PST
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From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
Content-Type:
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h hey,
hello jerry. found yr email online. if things are possible for
visit,
please give a holler to countyman@hotmail.com.\would really like
to get
in touch with you. in frisco and then redwoods until some time
monday.
don't leave until 15. reading on the 8th. get in touch and yes,
everyone
here, thanks for the use of the bandwidth.
mc
>From
owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Thu Jan 1
14:28:28 1998
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>Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:23:56 EST
>Reply-To:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender:
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>From:
Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
>Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Steve
Turner's Angel Headed Hipster on page 200 has a few photo's of
Jack
>wearing
the flag bandana around his neck while smoking a joint and
looking
>very
goofy and out of it. The photo is credited to Ron Bevirt who I
believe
>was
one of the Pranksters and is dated June 1964, New York. In one of
the
>photo's
you can see what appears to be a movie camera on a tri-pod. As
Kesey
>filmed
a lot of that trip I wonder if video exists of that party?
>
>Jerry
Cimino
>Fog
City
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:29:17 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: the fifties series on History
channel
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>
>
What should be outlawed (not that it is possible to outlaw stupidity) is
>
highly paid "reporters" like Mudd who have less regard for the facts
than used
>
toilet paper. He can spin history
anyway he wants but to report an incident
>
based on sheer fantasy is something else entirely.
>
>
Does anyone know where I could write Mudd,
Halberstam, or the History
>
Channel?
>
>
Howard Park
howard:
You may
want to see if you can find out who the writer/director was of
the
series, he may be more responsible for said error than mr. Mudd.
Mr.
Mudd is a reporter, most of the time just reading what someone else
writes
for him. He's got the talented face and
voice, and more than
likely
was just used as a 'talking head' for the series. Don't blame
him,
blame the newswriters and the fact checkers (if there were any).
And
once again, another fine example on why I did not go into journalism
as a
career.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:32:15 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: marie's overly-long stay in california
Comments:
To: mcountyman@hotmail.com
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>
>
Subject:
> happy holidays and a good year to all
> Date:
> Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:51:35 PST
> From:
> marie countyman
<mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
>
>
> hi
all:
> my
1998 is going to be a kickass one, it is starting out, or i should
>
say it started back in 87 when i got off the train and leon was there to
>
greet me!
>
adventures abound.
>
expect some stuff after i get home. whhooooeeee.
>
marie
So,
marie,
am I to
understand that you've been living at Leon's since 1987??????
So,
Leon, how has it felt to have marie around for eleven years????
(Just
kidding guys)
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:41:50 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Elm Street in Tempe
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Public
thanks to Jo Grant for connecting me with a wonderful couple
Chris
and Bil here in the Valley.
A
lovely evening spent chatting over coffee and gardens of sound and
thoughts
and chili peppers.
heading
back to the Heartland tomorrow...will probably be at the
Beat-Hotel
in Lawrence by
Sunday
night or Monday afternoon.
Isn't
1998 off to a great beginning! It's
probably the best 1998 i can
remember
david
rhaesa
there
will be peace in the valley fa la la la la blah blah blah
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:50:54 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: TRICIA PORTER <tporter5@WEBER.EDU>
Subject: Some Dharma 1997 -Reply
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thanks
honey. that is interesting. i'm not sure how freeing fish, will help
the
chickens death less painfull. i'll have
to read more on this.
love tp
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:46:13 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Some Dharma 1997 -Reply
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1998
and some things never change. Love
blooms on the Beat-L and more posters
join
the group triple checking their "Reply to" addresses. Just be assured
you
are in
good company.
James
Stauffer
TRICIA
PORTER wrote:
>
thanks honey. that is interesting. i'm not sure how freeing fish, will help
> the
chickens death less painfull. i'll have
to read more on this.
>
>
love tp
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:48:29 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Hard to find WSB book
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Hi
everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty
interesting.
So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-
A
little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
course
hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find
it
again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
turned
it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about
how
"language is a virus" and went on like that. I wish I could remember
more,
but
it's been a while, and no one else I've checked w/ seems to know.
And
while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the
autobiographical
novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?
I've
been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the "Dharma
Bums", and
though
that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright
dates...
I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate
books,
but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so
I'm not
really reading it as fiction anyway.
Oh, and
how about Jim Morrison as Beat? He refers to Beat poets a number of
times
(although never to himself as one), and influenced Jim Carroll a lot
too.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:30:32 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
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i think
you're talking about "Electronic Revolution" or something like that.
read it
while listening to Captain Beefheart's Safe As Milk
and the
virus will feel fairly safe indeed
david
rhaesa
soon
headed to the Beat-Hotel
Zucchini4
wrote:
> Hi
everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty
>
interesting. So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-
> A
little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
>
course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find
> it
again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
>
turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about
>
how "language is a virus" and went on like that. I wish I could
remember more,
> but
it's been a while, and no one else I've checked w/ seems to know.
>
>
And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the
>
autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?
>
I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the
"Dharma Bums", and
>
though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright
>
dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate
>
books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so
>
I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.
>
>
Oh, and how about Jim Morrison as Beat? He refers to Beat poets a number of
>
times (although never to himself as one), and influenced Jim Carroll a lot
>
too.
>
>
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:39:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
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David,
You never cease to amaze...you old ZigZagWanderer!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:12:33 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: And the Beat Goes On and On--via Tempe,
AZ
Mime-Version:
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David,
What a
pleasure to hear that the folks at 1603 found you as interesting and
charming
in person as I have via the List. Perhaps someday our paths will
cross,
out there, on the road.
j grant
>
>Dear
Joe --
>
>Thank
you for introducing us to David Rhaesa!
We enjoyed his presence, his
>stories,
his perspective, and found much in common.
>
>We
introduced David to our phase conjugate model of consciousness. Most
>people
find it a bit abstract, but David found it paralleled his thoughts
>on
the subject. We provided a few pieces
of the puzzle that weren't
>available
to Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Leary, and Watts. It'll be very
>interesting
to see what David does with this material!
>
>We
spent 4-1/2 hours together on the Event Horizon, where cultural frames
>of
reference dissolve and the barriers between individuals become receptor
>sites
for new World Views; where God becomes your Friend, not an abstract
>Court
of Judgment.
>
>We
gained a sense of our larger kinship beyond Time and Space. David
>arrived
as a stranger, but left as an old friend.
We fondly remember a
>time
when WE first arrived at the front door of 1603 as strangers, and
>found
friends. There must be something
magical about this place!
>
>David
left with a glow, a smile, and some hugs.
We and he had some laughs
>with
the Universe of Creation.
>
>Thank
you, Joe, for your intercession. Once
again, you've acted as the
>Divine
Novelty Agent you truly are!
>
>Looking
forward to sitting around the table with you again!
>
>Love,
>Chris
and Bil
>
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:14:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
In-Reply-To: <a66ef9e2.34ad448f@aol.com>
MIME-Version:
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>
And while I'm asking- do you guys think that when reading JK books (the
>
autobiographical novels, I mean) you should follow the chronological order?
>
I've been wondering about this. I read "Big Sur" after the
"Dharma Bums", and
>
though that's the right order, there's about 4 yrs difference in copyright
>
dates... I know I missed *something*. I know I *should* read them as seperate
>
books, but then I always start wondering which name stands for which name, so
>
I'm not really reading it as fiction anyway.
Well,
if you want to be technical, Some of the Dharma should be inserted
and
read along with the last half or third of Dharma Bums, then follow
with
Desolation Angels. Some of the Dharma
was just published this year
so
don't go by copyright dates. Maggie
Cassidy and Dr. Sax should go
before
them all and you should read Visions of Cody while you're
simultaneously
reading On the Road. VoC wasn't
published until after
Kerouac
had died. Its good to read them in some
sort of order just so you
can see
how his style changed from early on (Town & the City) to later
(Big
Sur) -- big differences. And knowing
what was happening in his life
lets
you know why his style changed. Also,
he didn't write his books in
the
chronological order of his life. In
fact, his later stuff and the
book he
started just before he died was about his childhood in Lowell.
So,
don't sweat it. Unless you're also as
fanatical about the events of
his
life and the happenings of the man and his era as we lunatics are,
just
read what you can get your hands on.
There's a multitude of
writings
that haven't seen the light of day since Kerouac himself stuffed
them
into his "to do" box also, so you'd be fighting a losing battle.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:32:31 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: CIRCULATION
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fact, fiction, flags and Mudd
Jerry
C. I forwarded your question to the Kesey camp. I'm curious too if that
film is
still around. Also, I didn't see that apartment listed in Bill Morgan's
Beat
Tour book. I think it was on 86th Street in NYC. Does anyone have
specifics?
Probably torn down long ago.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:03:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
Mime-Version:
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At
02:48 PM 1/2/98 EST, Stephanie wrote:
>Hi
everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to
>be
pretty interesting. So here's a question I hope you
>guys
could help me w/- A little while ago, I
found
>a
Burroughs book called..... something.... of
>course
hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore
>so
I'd never be able to findit again. It was very small,
>had
a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
>turned
it over and backwards it was in German.
Sounds
like _The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse_.
Published
by E.M.E. (Expanded Media Editions).
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:19:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Floyd Cramer
Comments:
To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.com>,
Johnny Winter
<jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>,
"jjw-l@io.com"
<jjw-l@io.com>
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Most
here may not care, but an important musical figure passed on New
Year's
Eve. Floyd Cramer of "The
Nashville Sound" passed. He played
piano
on Heartbreak Hotel, which in my book qualifies him for admission
into
any Hall of Fame or Olympus. His
biggest hit that I know of was
"Last
Date."
The
newspaper reports that he recorded 50 solo albums and along with
Chet
Atkins, and Boots Randolph (He had a great album cover back in the
sixties)
created The Nashville Sound that allowed country music to cross
over. He pioneered what is known as the "bent
note" or "slip note"
style
on the piano, "hitting a note and almost instantly sliding into
the
next -- influenced a generation of pianists."
He also
played on sessions by Roy Orbison, the Everly Brothers, PATSY
CLINE
(a divine and eternal goddess) and Perry Como in addition to the
historic
1955 recordings by Elvis in his first RCA sessions.
We will
miss you Floyd. Many didn't know his
sound, but if they heard
him
play, they would know why so many play like him still.
NP--
The Ballad of Easy Rider (album version)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:39:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper
<coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Hard to find WSB book
In-Reply-To: <199801030203.VAA02922@ionline.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
21:03 02/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At
02:48 PM 1/2/98 EST, Stephanie wrote:
>
>>Hi
everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to
>>be
pretty interesting. So here's a question I hope you
>>guys
could help me w/- A little while ago, I
found
>>a
Burroughs book called..... something.... of
>>course
hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore
>>so
I'd never be able to findit again. It was very small,
>>had
a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
>>turned
it over and backwards it was in German.
>
>Sounds
like _The Four Horsemen Of The Apocalypse_.
>Published
by E.M.E. (Expanded Media Editions).
>
>Mike
>
Nah, I
think it's Electronic Revolution. My copy has a dog on the cover. A
dog
doing a ... twirlie.
Glenn
C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 02:06:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Floyd Cramer
In-Reply-To: <34ADA038.EB07CBA2@scsn.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
09:19 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Most
here may not care, but an important musical figure passed on New
>Year's
Eve. Floyd Cramer of "The
Nashville Sound" passed. He played
>piano
on Heartbreak Hotel, which in my book qualifies him for admission
>into
any Hall of Fame or Olympus. His
biggest hit that I know of was
>"Last
Date."
>
>The
newspaper reports that he recorded 50 solo albums and along with
>Chet
Atkins, and Boots Randolph (He had a great album cover back in the
>sixties)
created The Nashville Sound that allowed country music to cross
>over. He pioneered what is known as the "bent
note" or "slip note"
>style
on the piano, "hitting a note and almost instantly sliding into
>the
next -- influenced a generation of pianists."
>
>He
also played on sessions by Roy Orbison, the Everly Brothers, PATSY
>CLINE
(a divine and eternal goddess) and Perry Como in addition to the
>historic
1955 recordings by Elvis in his first RCA sessions.
>
>We
will miss you Floyd. Many didn't know
his sound, but if they heard
>him
play, they would know why so many play like him still.
>
>NP--
The Ballad of Easy Rider (album version)
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
I
always like to call Floyd's style the teardrop piano note
because
it has a sad edge to it.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 04:55:24 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Re: And the Beat Goes On and On--via
Tempe, AZ
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Just
got home from an all night adventure in Tempe with a local attorney and old
college
friend. We went to see the new
Nicholson flick ate dinner and then
talked
about Melville and Faulkner until dawn's early light. We'd not been in
contact
for nine years. We're still old friends
as it turns out.
As for
1603 evening it seems about a month ago already. The ideas were
stimulating. An interesting angle especially given the
high degree of
scientific
expertise involved and my moron level of ignorance in scientific
matters. The parallels were far far away from each
other. It seems the
question
is whether a unified conjugation of consciousness is possible in which
the
forward moving muse and the backward moving muse say precisely the same
message? I'll let them figure that one out.
I
definitely have many other thoughts.
The evening was one of those enactments
of
temporal relativity. Chronologically
four hours, yet also seemed ten minutes
and
four years at the same time. Bil's
facial structure resembled an old
housemate
in Illinois who was the Fool on the Hill.
Sometimes it was hard to
follow
completely because i had to keep telling my memories of North to turn off
so that
i could focus on the words coming in from Bil.
For those who know about
the
conjugal consciounsess<grin> the experience makes total sense.
leaving
on a jet plane today
david
rhaesa
airborne.....
jo
grant wrote:
>
David,
>
What a pleasure to hear that the folks at 1603 found you as interesting and
>
charming in person as I have via the List. Perhaps someday our paths will
>
cross, out there, on the road.
> j
grant
>
>
>
>
>Dear Joe --
>
>
>
>Thank you for introducing us to David Rhaesa! We enjoyed his presence, his
>
>stories, his perspective, and found much in common.
>
>
>
>We introduced David to our phase conjugate model of consciousness. Most
>
>people find it a bit abstract, but David found it paralleled his thoughts
>
>on the subject. We provided a few
pieces of the puzzle that weren't
>
>available to Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Leary, and Watts. It'll be very
>
>interesting to see what David does with this material!
>
>
>
>We spent 4-1/2 hours together on the Event Horizon, where cultural frames
>
>of reference dissolve and the barriers between individuals become receptor
>
>sites for new World Views; where God becomes your Friend, not an abstract
>
>Court of Judgment.
>
>
>
>We gained a sense of our larger kinship beyond Time and Space. David
>
>arrived as a stranger, but left as an old friend. We fondly remember a
>
>time when WE first arrived at the front door of 1603 as strangers, and
>
>found friends. There must be
something magical about this place!
>
>
>
>David left with a glow, a smile, and some hugs. We and he had some laughs
>
>with the Universe of Creation.
>
>
>
>Thank you, Joe, for your intercession.
Once again, you've acted as the
> >Divine
Novelty Agent you truly are!
>
>
>
>Looking forward to sitting around the table with you again!
>
>
>
>Love,
>
>Chris and Bil
>
>
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:35:23 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS
MIME-Version:
1.0
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>
>
Subject:
> Hard to find WSB book
> Date:
> Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:48:29 EST
> From:
> Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
>
>
> Hi
everybody. Just joined this list, and it is proving to be pretty
> interesting.
So here's a question I hope you guys could help me w/-
> A
little while ago, I found a Burroughs book called..... something.... of
>
course hiding on the wrong shelf of the bookstore so I'd never be able to find
> it
again. It was very small, had a .... dog?..... on the cover, and if you
>
turned it over and backwards it was in German. It started out going on about
>
how "language is a virus" .......
This
has nothing to do with that book, (I think) but
Does
anybody remember Laurie Anderson, the musical performance artist
who at
times worked with peter Gabriel? She
did a song called "Language
is a
Virus." I used to have her tape, I
can't find it now. If anyone
out
there knows what I'm talking about, can they post the lyrics? Maybe
it does
have something to do with the book.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:05:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Permutation poems
Comments:
cc: nhenness@uwaterloo.ca
Mime-Version:
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At
10:31 AM 12/30/97 -0500, Neil Hennessy wrote:
<snip>
>There
are also recordings of Gysin reading his
>permutation
poems, including "Kick that Habit Man",
>"Junk
is No Good Baby" and some
>others.
<snip>
>The
best books to look into are _Here to Go: Planet R-101_
>which
is constructed as a series of interviews with Gysin,
>
_Brion Gysin Let the Mice In_ , and
_Man from
>Nowhere:
Storming the Citadels of Enlightenment_.
>Mike
Cakebread might be able to tell you if there's
>anything
about permutations in the Man from Nowhere
>book
(Mike?)
The
only mention of permutation poems I could
find in
_Man From Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of
Enlightenment
with William Burroughs and Brion Gysin_
(published
by the gap and subliminal books, 1992) is the
above
recordings (and the blurb below) at BBC studios in
1960 by
Gysin, with producer George Macbeth.
>from: _Man From Nowhere: Storming the Citadels of
Enlightenment
with William Burroughs and Brion Gysin_
Brion
Gysin:
"We
did first of all the 'Pistol Poem' which was their
revolver
shot; I had brought a cannon shot with me, not
realizing
that it would be too long. . . because here we
began
dealing with sound as material measurable in
centimetres,
even in feet and inches, and the whole point
of the
exercise was to do things treating sound as if it was
material.
. . tangible material; as indeed it has become
since
the invention of tape. And so we went
to work, we
did the
pistol shot one metre away, two metres away,
three,
four, five metres, and then a permutation of these
numbers
produced a pistol poem."
Not
much, but better than nothing. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:52:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Wittgenstein?
Mime-Version:
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Does
anybody know if there are any Burroughs references
regarding
Ludwig Wittgenstein? Any info would
be
appreciated.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:11:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper
<coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <199801032352.SAA05859@ionline.net>
Mime-Version:
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At
18:52 03/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Does
anybody know if there are any Burroughs references
>regarding
Ludwig Wittgenstein? Any info would
>be
appreciated.
>
>Mike
>
WSB
quotes him during the BURROUGHS THE MOVIE doco.
Glenn
C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 19:52:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <199801032352.SAA05859@ionline.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
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On Sat,
3 Jan 1998, M. Cakebread wrote:
>
Does anybody know if there are any Burroughs references
>
regarding Ludwig Wittgenstein? Any info
would
> be
appreciated.
reference
to the Tractatus in the intro to Naked Lunch (about 2
pages
from the end)....a paraphrase perhaps of 5.47321
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:09:33 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Greetings and salutations
Content-Type:
text/plain
I'd
just like to say hello.
I just
joined the list and thought I should I announce my presence.
A
little bit about me:
I was
first introduced to the Beats by reading "Desolate Angel,"
biography
of Jack Kerouac. From there I read "On the Road" and "The
Dharma
Bums".
I have
shifted a little bit recently, I consider myself to mainly be a
Ginsberg
devotee, of his books I own:
"Plutonian
Ode"
"The
Fall of America"
"Howl
and Other Poems"
"Mind
Breaths"
"Selected
Poems"
"Journals
Mid Fifties"
"Annotated
Howl"
and the
Barry Miles biography.
I have
also spent a lot of time recently on a web site devoted to him:
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
I am
going to make a point of reading some Burroughs (I started Naked
Lunch
at one point, never finished for one reason or another) and to
read
more of Kerouac (plus rereading "On the Road").
I have
read a little bit about Buddhism and try to incorporate some of
the
teachings into my life, I am also a writer of fiction and poetry.
That's
enough rambling for now... Hope to hear from everyone soon.
Greg
Beaver-Seitz
Stillwater,
Minnesota
hookooekoo@hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 04:23:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Greetings and salutations
Content-type:
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i've
noticed that a lot of new members have signed on recently. three cheers!
though
i'm still new myself, and am hardly in a position to say this, welcome
aboard!
aeronwy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:19:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Greetings and salutations
In-Reply-To:
<19980104060934.15361.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Welcome
to the list, Greg...
I also
started Naked Lunch and never finished it but Im sure I will,
eventually.
~Nancy
PS I
really want a Gary Fisher HooKooEKoo. Do you have one?
On Sat,
3 Jan 1998, Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
I'd just like to say hello.
> I
just joined the list and thought I should I announce my presence.
> A
little bit about me:
> I
was first introduced to the Beats by reading "Desolate Angel,"
>
biography of Jack Kerouac. From there I read "On the Road" and
"The
>
Dharma Bums".
> I
have shifted a little bit recently, I consider myself to mainly be a
>
Ginsberg devotee, of his books I own:
>
"Plutonian Ode"
>
"The Fall of America"
>
"Howl and Other Poems"
>
"Mind Breaths"
>
"Selected Poems"
>
"Journals Mid Fifties"
>
"Annotated Howl"
>
and the Barry Miles biography.
> I
have also spent a lot of time recently on a web site devoted to him:
>
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
>
> I
am going to make a point of reading some Burroughs (I started Naked
>
Lunch at one point, never finished for one reason or another) and to
>
read more of Kerouac (plus rereading "On the Road").
> I
have read a little bit about Buddhism and try to incorporate some of
>
the teachings into my life, I am also a writer of fiction and poetry.
>
That's enough rambling for now... Hope to hear from everyone soon.
>
>
Greg Beaver-Seitz
>
Stillwater, Minnesota
>
hookooekoo@hotmail.com
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:04:15 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Greetings and salutations
Content-Type:
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I've
got a trip to the library today to get some kerouac and
burroughs....
i hope to find time to read them along with stuff for
school
and a great book (completely un-beat) called "Sophie's World"....
Greg
ps
Nancy... yes, I have a 95 Hookooekoo which I've upgraded a little
since
buying it.
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:14:08 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
Mime-Version:
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Thanx
Jeff & Glenn for the Wittgenstein info!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:54:01 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: kerouac & flags
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In _On
the Bus_ by Paul Perry (NY: Thunder's Mouth, 1990), the following
statement
occurs regarding a party at a Manhattan apartment including the
Merry
Pranksters and Jack Kerouac:
"'Take a listen,' Cassady says,
putting the earphones on Jack. The
Pranksters
massage Kerouac with soothing words. They croon choruses of
'Everything's
Fine,' into his ears. Dale covers Jack's shoulders with an
American
flag. Jack endures it stoically and when the chorusing is done,
takes
off the earphones and carefully folds the flag and places it on the
sofa."
(p. 84)
This
book also contains a photo of Kerouac at that party with the flag
draped
around his shoulders (p. 86) and quotes the following story by
Ginsberg:
"The Pranksters had a big throne
of a sofa completely clear for
Kerouac.
The room was full of wires and lights and cameras and people in
striped
clothes and Pranksters and jesters and American flags and people
waving
cameras around drinking in rock and roll and all lit up like
amphetamines.
Kerouac came in. He was mute and quiet
and they showed him to his
couch
seat but there was an American flag on it, so Kerouac, without
making
a big, noisy complaint but a little minor objection, turned around
and
took the flag and folded it up neatly and put it over the side of the
couch
so they wouldn't sit on it. He was very conscious of the flag as an
image,
and I think he misunderstood their use of it. They were
appropriating
the flag for their own American purposes and he thought they
were
maybe insulting it. Of course, you can
say many things about Kesey,
but
being unpatriotic is not one of them." (p. 86)
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 16:53:56 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Mary Maconnell
<MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: New/"Kerouac: The Essence of Jack"
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Hi
again. Howard Park was right on in
describing the play thusly:
-----
It
opens with a fine jazz combo. From
there it is a series of events from
Kerouac's
life. It sticks pretty close to the
facts as I understand them with
some
"license" when the actor gets into the rhelm of how Kerouac felt
about
certain
things. The territiory is pretty
familier - Gerards death, football
days, meeting Cassidy and Ginsberg, troubles
getting On The Road published,
positive
and negative reactions to OTR, troubles brought on by sudden fame,
the
Steve Allen show, the breakdown at Big Sur, the Merry Pranksters visit,
the
alcohol soaked 60's. Readings from
various Kerouac books are sprinkled
throughout. At the end Vincent takes questions -- mostly
from
twentysomethings
who know a little, but not a lot, about Kerouac.
-----
Vincent
Balestri was simply amazing. Every time
I think about it I want
to back
and see it again and again.
Unfortunately, I live about 250 miles
from
Seattle and so that would involve a weekend road trip which now I
won't
have much time for. Anyway, this guy is
incredible. He really *is*
Jack. It's just him and the jazz trio. On the stage is a coat rack, a
table
with a typewriter on it, and a rocking chair.
He has a few
miscellaneous
props such as an alcohol bottle, a poster from a "cheesy"
(so
I've been told -- I didn't see it and I can't remember the title)
movie
about the beats, etc. I was captivated
and it held my attention
for the
entire duration. He takes the play from
a two-page bio that
Jack
wrote from "Heaven..." and actually consults that during the play.
It's
funny, well-written, poignant, and completely gripping.
On the
night that I went there was such a mixture of people it was unreal.
I saw
everyone from high schoolers (I wish I had known about Kerouac then!!)
to
older people (hope I don't offend anyone).
:) There were a few, but
now
many, 'twentysomethings' in the crowd and I must confess that I was
one of
them! They do have a nice little bar in
the back that serves
cheap,
good, stiff drinks which you can enjoy at your seat during the
show.
The
musicians are excellent. The friend I
went with knows the bass player
(Mike
Bisio) pretty well and he introduced us to Brian Kent (sax) and the
guy
playing drums (can't remember his name -- he was a stand-in for the
normal
guy). I loved the music. They also play a bit before the show
so it
sets the mood very nicely.
For
those who missed it before, the play is at the Velvet Elvis in Pioneer
Square
in Seattle and it plays until the 15th of February. The price is
$18 a
ticket but it *is* well worth it. Heck,
I'm going again if I can
possibly
get over there.
Take
care, all, and happy new year!
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:56:50 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>
Subject: that old time religion
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I'm yet
another new lister - hi all.
I
wonder if there's been any discussion before about how cool it is that
the
three uber-dudes of Beat genesis - Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac -
represented,
by dint of their particular backgrounds,what could be
considered
the three founding religious permutations of Euro-American
culture
: Protestantism, Judaism and Catholicism respectively. It's like in
order
for there to be a new spiritual wave form released into the North
American
consciousness there had to be a coming together of the old
factions.
Whaddya think?
Oh, and
by the way, I'm a Canadian. Just for fun, can anyone think of any
truly
Beat Canucks?
jacqui
in Nelson, B.C.
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<html><head></head><BODY
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000"
face=3D"Arial">I'm yet another new lister - hi =
all.<br><br>I
wonder if there's been any discussion before about how =
cool it
is that the three uber-dudes of Beat genesis - Burroughs, =
Ginsberg,
Kerouac - represented, by dint of their particular =
backgrounds,what
could be considered the three founding religious =
permutations
of Euro-American culture : Protestantism, Judaism and =
Catholicism
respectively. It's like in order for there to be a new =
spiritual
wave form released into the North American consciousness there =
had to
be a coming together of the old factions. Whaddya =
think?<br><br>Oh,
and by the way, I'm a Canadian. Just for fun, can =
anyone
think of any truly Beat Canucks?<br><br>jacqui in Nelson, =
B.C.</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD1942.83D433A0--
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Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:20:32 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Truly Beat Canucks
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<199801050255.SAA10191@everest.netidea.com>
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I heard
your first prime minister (McDonald, right?) was pretty cool......
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:54:18 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
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From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: language is a virus
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Help
me,
I'm
still desparately trying to locate that Laurie Anderson tape I had
with
"Language is a virus". Does
anyone out there have it and can they
post
the lyrics. I've got to satisfy my
curiousity if it is connected
to that
recently discussed wsb book. Patricia
told me that she had
preformed
with burroughs and ginsberg, so i'm really curious on this.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 23:11:42 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: tristan saldana
<hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: that old time religion
Comments:
To: Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<199801050255.SAA10191@everest.netidea.com>
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What
are you referring to exactly when you say "that old time religion?"
I mean
what does that phrase actually mean? I
haven't heared that saying
since
the tune "Big Money" by Rush!
Tristan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 02:24:01 -0500
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From: Timothy Franklin Thomas <tt324696@OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: language is a virus
Comments:
To: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@comic.net>
In-Reply-To: <34B0758A.5F29@comic.net>
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"Language
is a virus from outer space" was on Anderson's 1984 five-album
set
"United States Live". I believe that this was released on cd only
recently.
I'm sure she had many collaberations with the boys only one of
which
comes to mind at this time. She did an album on John Giorno's
Dial-A-Poet
series with Giorno and Burroughs. The album is interesting in
that
instead of having one groove spiraling toward the center, there were
three
separate grooves intertwined. Depending on were the needle touched
down at
the start of the record then that was the track you heard. The
album
was called "You're The Guy I Want To Share My Money With".
TIMBO
On Sun,
4 Jan 1998, Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
Help me,
>
>
>
I'm still desparately trying to locate that Laurie Anderson tape I had
>
with "Language is a virus".
Does anyone out there have it and can they
>
post the lyrics. I've got to satisfy my
curiousity if it is connected
> to
that recently discussed wsb book.
Patricia told me that she had
>
preformed with burroughs and ginsberg, so i'm really curious on this.
>
>
cathy
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:27:21 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: CIRCULATION
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac & Kesey on film
From: MX%"kenk@efn.org" "Kesey and/or Babbs" 4-JAN-1998 20:00:09.62
To: MX%"breithau@kenyon.edu"
CC:
Subj: Re: This video still around?
For the
Beat Listers who wondered if that film of Kerouac and the Pranksters in
NYC was
still around, here is the word from Ken Babbs.
Dave B.
Hi,
Dave. Yes, the film of which you speak is still in existence, as it has
been
these past 34 years. We have yet to
edit it and release it. But you
can get
videos of parts of the film from keyz@efn.org
or you
can call them at 541-484-4315. It's Zane Kesey (Kesey's son) and his
wife,
Stephanie.
kb
http://www.intrepidtrips.com
__________
_/ |
|_ FURTHER _|
O O
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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To:
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From:
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Subject:
Re: This video still around?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:45:40 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: michael hanson
<hanson@HUM.AUC.DK>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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Someone
recently asked for information on Burroughs's use of and relation
to
Ludwig Wittgenstein. I am afraid I no longer remember who asked, but
anyway...
here is an article you might like to read:
R.G.Peterson:
"A Picture Is A Fact: Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch", in: The
Beats -
Essays in Criticism, pp. 30-39, Ed. by Lee Bartlett, McFarland 1981.
Sincerely
Michael
Hanson
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:45:30 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Most Stolen Books
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According to Publisher's Weekly:
Books most likely to be stolen from
stores in New York City [would we
consider this to be indicative of the US
in general? - Matt] include:
Waiting to Exhale
Jazz
Playing in the Dark
Silent Passage: Menopause
Race
Possessing the Secret of Joy
Most stolen authors include:
Annie Leibovitz
Dr. Seuss
Franz Kafka
Jack Kerouac
Malcolm X
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:36:10 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper
<coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <00089626.3427@usoc.org>
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At
13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
> According to Publisher's Weekly:
>
> Books most likely to be stolen from
stores in New York City [would we
> consider this to be indicative of the US
in general? - Matt] include:
>
> Waiting to Exhale
> Jazz
> Playing in the Dark
> Silent Passage: Menopause
> Race
> Possessing the Secret of Joy
>
> Most stolen authors include:
>
> Annie Leibovitz
> Dr. Seuss
> Franz Kafka
> Jack Kerouac
> Malcolm X
>
In
Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.
Number
1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The
Mariujuana
growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller
books.
A
couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and
"counterculture"
stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.
Not
sure what we can make from that!
Glenn
C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:04:56 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
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I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's
"Steal This Book" isn't on either
list.
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
Re: Most Stolen Books
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 1/5/98 4:36 PM
At
13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
> According to Publisher's Weekly:
>
> Books most likely to be stolen from
stores in New York City [would we
> consider this to be indicative of the US
in general? - Matt] include:
>
> Waiting to Exhale
> Jazz
> Playing in the Dark
> Silent Passage: Menopause
> Race
> Possessing the Secret of Joy
>
> Most stolen authors include:
>
> Annie Leibovitz
> Dr. Seuss
> Franz Kafka
> Jack Kerouac
> Malcolm X
>
In
Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.
Number
1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The Road". The
Mariujuana
growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller
books.
A
couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and
"counterculture"
stuff right up near the counter, to help deter thieves.
Not
sure what we can make from that!
Glenn
C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:59:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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Can
anyone briefly tell me if the references mentioned
are
influenced by Wittgenstein's _Tractatus_, or
_Philosophical Investigations_? Just curious.
If I
remember correctly, LW changed his views about
language
(he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
and in
_Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
if one
actually looks to see how language is used, the
variety
of linguistic usage becomes clear.
Words
are
like tools, and just as tools serve different
functions,
so linguistic expressions serve many
functions).
This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
variety
led to his concept of a language game and to
the
conclusion that people play different language games.
Trying
to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
theories.
Thanx,
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:22:31 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
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Speaking
of movies..
Does
anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
Daisy"
which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
I have
read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
planned
on finding it but I thought I'd try.
-Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ginsberg
etc.
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:38:00 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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In a
message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:
<<
If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
language (he believed his views in
_Tractutus_ were narrow,
and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he
argues that
if one actually looks to see how language is
used, the
variety of linguistic usage becomes
clear. Words
are like tools, and just as tools serve
different
functions, so linguistic expressions serve
many
functions). This recognition of linguistic
flexibility and
variety led to his concept of a language game
and to
the conclusion that people play different
language games.
Trying to find out what WSB's take was on
Wittgenstein's
theories. >>
Please
don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as
sterile
and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.
Gotta
go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
ID
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:14:24 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mary Maconnell <MMACONNELL@MAIL.EWU.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac: The Essence of Jack cont'd.
(notes)
MIME-version:
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Thought
I'd dig up the production notes and copy them from the program
from
the aforementioned play. They read:
Jack Kerouac
exploded into the nation's consciousness in 1957 with the
publication
of On the Road: the odyssey of two young men in post World
War II
America travelling across the continent in a search for truth.
Their
journey from Harlem jazz joints to the barrios of Mexico City lit
the
hearts and minds of a new generation like a torch set ablaze against
a
dreary cold war landscape. The New York
Times called the book a
literary
milestone. A few weeks later, the Times
published a second
review
condemning the work and all it represented.
But it was too late.
A new
generation had been born.
In
1980, Mr. Balestri began actively working on what was to become
Kerouac:
The Essence of Jack. A friend
introduced him to Edie Kerouac,
Jack's
first wife, who was struck by Balestri's resemblance to Kerouac.
Edie
supplied him with tapes of the author's voice and spent hours
talking
about her life with Jack and the times in which they lived.
With
Edie's encouragement, Balestri began a series of hour long '
performances
in a friend's loft in Chicago. He next
performed as a
benefit
at David Thompson University in B.C. -- an eight hour
marathon
in which the actor and the audience went for broke. Full
production
began in 1981. Since that time, Mr.
Balestri has toured
extensively
across the United States and Canada.
"Kerouac" has been
showcased
in Jack's hometown, Lowell, Massachusetts, for their annual
birthday
celebration and has been seen by many of Jack's family and
friends.
This
production is dedicated to Jack's loved ones who are with him
now --
safe in heaven dead.
-----
The
typos are mine, if there are any, and I don't know who wrote these
notes
as there is not an author mentioned.
Thought
this might give more concrete information rather than just the
groovy
feelings I have for the play. :) I hope I'm not boring everyone!!
Mary
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:21:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
Mime-Version:
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At
05:38 PM 1/5/98 EST, IDDHI@AOL.COM wrote:
>Please
don't take this personally, but who gives a shit?
>If
prose was as sterile and ho-hum as that theory
>and
passage above, I'd never crack a book.
Obviously
I do give a shit, and maybe there are
others.
. . How do you not expect me to not
take
a reply
like this personally? If you
are
going to make an open attack on me, please
don't
kiss my ass beforehand. I'd respect the
candor
of the attack a hell of a lot more than a
petty
flame. I was trying to find out some
info for
personal
study, and this retort was not appreciated.
I hope
next time you think before you post.
Sorry
for the flame folx.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:50:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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IDDHI
wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:
>
>
<< If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
> language (he believed his views in
_Tractutus_ were narrow,
> and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he
argues that
> if one actually looks to see how language is
used, the
> variety of linguistic usage becomes
clear. Words
> are like tools, and just as tools serve
different
> functions, so linguistic expressions serve
many
> functions). This recognition of linguistic
flexibility and
> variety led to his concept of a language
game and to
> the conclusion that people play different
language games.
> Trying to find out what WSB's take was on
Wittgenstein's
> theories. >>
>
>
Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as
>
sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.
>
>
Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>
> ID
Interesting,
what some people find interesting, i found the first post
interesting. Language as a game resulting in escalation
of thought is a
roller
coaster i can buy a ticket on. the
second post seemed real
boring.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:48:20 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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-----Original
Message-----
From:
IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Monday, January 05, 1998 2:54 PM
Subject:
Re: Wittgenstein?
>In
a message dated 98-01-05 17:26:02 EST, Mike wrote:
>
><<
If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
>
language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
>
and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
> if
one actually looks to see how language is used, the
>
variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.
Words
>
are like tools, and just as tools serve different
>
functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
>
functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
>
variety led to his concept of a language game and to
>
the conclusion that people play different language games.
>
Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
>
theories. >>
>
>Please
don't take this personally, but who gives a shit?
Count
me in as one who does give a shit.
>If
prose was as
>sterile
and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a
book.
Sterile
and ho-hum in the eyes of the beholder?
>
>Gotta
go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
Stay
alive with Hank, man, while I feast on Wittgenstein's theories. Thanks
for the
delightful food for thought, Mike.
>
>ID
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:31:11 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: English major
Content-Type:
text/plain
>>
If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
>>
language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
>>
and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
>>
if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
>>
variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.
Words
>>
are like tools, and just as tools serve different
>>
functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
>>
functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
>>
variety led to his concept of a language game and to
>>
the conclusion that people play different language games.
>>
Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
>>
theories. >>
>
>
>Please
don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was
>as
>sterile
and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a
book.
>
>Gotta
go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>
>ID
>
Exactly.
Leave
dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
authors/poets/people.
I have
seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:
In an AOL chat room (note: never visit
AOL chat rooms)
At a talk by Jane Smiley between her
(although she seemed anxious
(to end such talk) and an
english major in the audience.
In physics' books.
I have
absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could
become
one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and
I just
really dislike physics.
I also
have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,
believe
me.
With
good feelings all around,
greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * *
Ginsberg
etc.
http://members.tripod.com
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:45:43 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
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I got
my copy from Beat Books in Berkeley.
http://members.aol.com/beatshop/beatcat.html
Good
luck!
Jym
----------
>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject:
Re: Most Stolen Books
>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 4:22 PM
>
>
Speaking of movies..
>
Does anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
>
Daisy" which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
> I
have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
>
planned on finding it but I thought I'd try.
>
>
-Greg
>
> *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
Ginsberg etc.
>
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:47:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
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Matt
Hannan wrote:
> According to Publisher's Weekly:
>
> Books most likely to be stolen from
stores in New York City [would
we
> consider this to be indicative of the US
in general? - Matt]
include:
>
> Waiting to Exhale
> Jazz
> Playing in the Dark
> Silent Passage: Menopause
> Race
> Possessing the Secret of Joy
>
> Most stolen authors include:
>
> Annie Leibovitz
> Dr. Seuss
> Franz Kafka
> Jack Kerouac
> Malcolm X
DR.
SEUSS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
What is
the world coming to???????
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:12:14 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: English major
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-----Original
Message-----
From:
Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Monday, January 05, 1998 4:33 PM
Subject:
English major
hookooekoo,
>>Gotta
go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>>
>>ID
>>
>
>Exactly.
Is it
possibly your diet that keeps you, ID and Hookooekoo, on the verge of
starvation?
>Leave
dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
>authors/poets/people.
Thanks
for the compliment hookooekooo.
>I
have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:
> In an AOL chat room (note: never visit
AOL chat rooms)
> At a talk by Jane Smiley between her
(although she seemed anxious
> (to end such talk) and an
english major in the audience.
> In physics' books.
Is
anything beyond your grasp unworthy of alive vibrant intelligent
consideration?
>I
have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could
>become
one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and
>I
just really dislike physics.
How do
you stack up in your noble assignments of respect and "nothing
against"
refreshingly vital judgements?
>I
also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,
>believe
me.
Here is
a dry, supeeranalytical, overly intellectual question for your
amusement:
What in the hell do you think you are communicating about
yourself
with this statement?
Do you
wonder if anybody takes you seriously?
>
>With
good feelings all around,
Those
are good feelings that you just spread out for me, a great admirer of
great
minds and intelligent discussions?
I would
like to suggest to you that perhaps if you worked hard at it you too
might
discover the great joy there is to be found in profound use of your
brain.
If you want to limit it to just whatever it is that you can enjoy
that is
fine with me, but must you dismiss what you don't like as feed for
dried
up super something or other? I think if you respected yourself more
you
wouldn't be so quick with your handouts of respect to others.
>greg
>
>
>* *
* * * * * * * * * * *
>Ginsberg
etc.
>http://members.tripod.com
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:59:59 -0700
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From: Jim Rhaesa <racy@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: [Fwd: Flying visions #3308]
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Date:
Sun, 04 Jan 1998 23:38:55 -0600
From:
Barb & Jim Rhaesa <racee@primary.net>
Reply-To:
racee@primary.net
Organization:
Living Big with Jim & Barb
X-Mailer:
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To: Jim
Rhaesa <racy@primenet.com>
CC: Beach@qconline.com
Subject:
Flying visions #3308
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Jim,
please
forward the following to the Beat-L (address in you address book)
at your
earliest convenience.
January
3rd, 1998 America West Return Flight from Phoenix to KC
(read
while watching Space Jam and listening to Holy Soul Jelly Roll)
Riding
a bike
First
fight
NoDoz
and First frozen pizzas
my
first experiences with a
mustard
seed
and the
old old gardener
teaching
coooking
simmering
alchemical,
archetypal, synaptic interactions whiz by like clouds
b
e
l
o
w
I'm
flying above the clouds in a hot air balloon named Widener or
Titanic
I came
to the Valley
with
the old myth
"ya
gotta walk that Lonesome valley"
by
yurself
with a
genetic engrained MIDI
chip
brain ram recorder
spitting
200 floors above
Leonard
Cohen's vision of the Future
Me and
Roy are laughing
(Hank's
180 floors down coughing so we invite him up)
all
night long
Often
snoring too as boredom overtook us
we
talked about lactose intolerance
with
Robert Johnson
Whadayadoin
here kid - says Blind Lemon Jefferson
and I
says I'm just the Pizza Delivery boy
waiting
for a
tip
on how
to
survive the loneliness below
And
John Lennon sings
There
Will be Peace in the Valley
and
gives me a ticket to fly
and Big
Brother who held me company (not captive)
loans
me a car and suddenly
I'm at
1603 ELF Street in Tempe
in the
Land of the Apache
in the
Valley of the Sun
and I'm
a Moonchild's shadow from the
Dark
Side
wearing
Ruby Converse All-stars (low tops)
and
black Levis
the
Stranger of Strangers
who
ghostwrote Camus
in
anti-linear conjugative temporal telepathic Hog Greek
a total
stranger
in the
Valley of the Sun
interacting
intraacting
based
souly on introduction
via
a
technological medium
I
understand at a limit set to nihil
empty
set
of
fingers pouncing on a keyboard
with
John Lennon's choir singing
Rocky
Mountain High
a
n
d
Louis
Armstrong - It's A Wonderful World
with
Jimmy Stewart dancing on the bridges
between
the 12th and 13th dimensions
and
i
wonder
when
someone else will find the key
to the
"Pizza Delivery Con"
at the
Tower of Song
in
issue #23
of Spy
vs. Spy
the
special biography of my backchannel brain distorted
and the
eagle landed
in
arrowhead stadium
david
rhaesa
copyright
January 1998
--------------A66F4A113EDD568599A4DB00--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:56:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <19980105222232.650.qmail@hotmail.com>
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At
02:22 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>Speaking
of movies..
>Does
anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
>Daisy"
which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
>I
have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
>planned
on finding it but I thought I'd try.
>
E-mail
Jeffry Weinberg at waterrow@aol.com or go to his site at
http://www.waterrowbooks.com/orderpage.html I am pretty sure he has it and
he is
very reliable. Phil
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:25:45 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
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>
Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
>
authors/poets/people.
What
strikes me in this comment is the assumption that a concern for the
idea of
language and meaning is considered dry and emotionless, and that
perhaps
it is not necessary in discussions of beat writers, whom I hope
are
experienced as emotional, vital and alive.
The whole idea of beat
literature
is centered in the experience of truly living life to the
fullest. All of these people however went from
"experiencing" to
"writing
about the experience." They wrote
about human-ness and the only
way to
do that is by using language. Not only
that, all of them
experimented
with language: Ginsberg brought immediate, personal
experience
to the realm of poetry; Kerouac brought up the idea of
spontaneous
prose; and few writers of the twentieth have ever begun to
experiment
with language in the way that Burroughs did.
I am sure
that
Burroughs read widely in the area of the philosophy of language. The
meaning
of language is key to everything we do and great writers all
experiment
with the potentiality of the word. If
I'm broaching the area
of
"analytical, superintellectism" then so be it! As Joseph Campbell
would
say "follow your bliss."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:31:36 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: English major
well
said Diane. while over-analysis seems
to be the problem these days -
leaving
the emotion as though it were a mere tangent to the work, still it's
obvious
that language was VERY important to Beats, just as it is to anyone
who
writes seriously. for all his
spontaneity, if memory serves, JK wrote
12
revisions of "On the Road".
and i agree that Burroughs whole take on
language
could be viewed as a study of semiotics.
and if we wish to
understand
any writing to the fullest, we must understand language, for it
is
language that defines much of how a culture thinks - its philosophies,
its
understanding of the world, its limitations.
ciao,
sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Monday, January 05, 1998 7:00 PM
Subject:
Re: English major
>>
Greg Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
>>
Leave dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
>>
authors/poets/people.
>
>What
strikes me in this comment is the assumption that a concern for the
>idea
of language and meaning is considered dry and emotionless, and that
>perhaps
it is not necessary in discussions of beat writers, whom I hope
>are
experienced as emotional, vital and alive.
The whole idea of beat
>literature
is centered in the experience of truly living life to the
>fullest. All of these people however went from "experiencing"
to
>"writing
about the experience." They wrote
about human-ness and the only
>way
to do that is by using language. Not
only that, all of them
>experimented
with language: Ginsberg brought immediate, personal
>experience
to the realm of poetry; Kerouac brought up the idea of
>spontaneous
prose; and few writers of the twentieth have ever begun to
>experiment
with language in the way that Burroughs did.
I am sure
>that
Burroughs read widely in the area of the philosophy of language. The
>meaning
of language is key to everything we do and great writers all
>experiment
with the potentiality of the word. If
I'm broaching the area
>of
"analytical, superintellectism" then so be it! As Joseph Campbell
>would
say "follow your bliss."
>DC
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:12:45 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Don Marriner <mmas@NETIDEA.COM>
Subject: Re: that old time re:ligion
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tristan-
"that
old time religion" refers to what I consider the old religions that I
mentioned
in my message...
...ah,
Rush: a very _unbeat_ Canadian band. But how about those Cowboy
Junkies?
Surely they're carrying the torch.
chris-
Jack's
family came from the Great White North but it seems to me that the
man
himself was a good red blooded American boy.
And
just to answer my own question - I just remembered Leonard Cohen -!
How
could I forget Cohen-san. Mr Canuck Beatnik.
adrien
-
hey,
flat lander!
Thanks
for the tips re Levy-Beaulieu and the bongobeat guy!
As for
faves, I'm definitely a Kerouackian - I first read the Dharma Bums
while
riding the Coast Starlight train from Seattle to Oakland, my jumping
off
point for a week of wandering around San Fran and Berkeley and Mount
Tam
with the lenses of Jack's lingo before my eyes. I was 19. Since then I
've
tried to read as widely as possible and tried to get some shit down on
paper
myself. I practically live by Jack's "list of essentials". I had the
pleasure
of seeing Ginsberg and Orlovsky read here in Nelson in 1979 and
own
what I suppose is a bootleg copy of that night.
ciao,
-jacqui
List of
Essentials, #16: Work from pithy middle
eye out, from the jewel
center
of interest, swimming in language sea.
------=_NextPart_000_01BD1A16.4904DCA0
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<html><head></head><BODY
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000"
face=3D"Arial">tristan-<br>"that old time =
religion"
refers to what I consider the old religions that I =
mentioned
in my message...<br>...ah, Rush: a very _unbeat_ Canadian =
band.
But how about those Cowboy Junkies? Surely they're carrying the =
torch.<br><br>chris-<br>Jack's
family came from the Great White North =
but it
seems to me that the man himself was a good red blooded American =
boy.<br><br>And
just to answer my own question - I just remembered =
Leonard
Cohen -!<br>How could I forget Cohen-san. Mr Canuck =
Beatnik.<br><br>adrien
-<br>hey, flat lander! <br>Thanks for the tips re =
Levy-Beaulieu
and the bongobeat guy!<br>As for faves, I'm definitely a =
Kerouackian
- I first read the Dharma Bums while riding the Coast =
Starlight
train from Seattle to Oakland, my jumping off point for a week =
of
wandering around San Fran and Berkeley and Mount Tam with the lenses =
of
Jack's lingo before my eyes. I was 19. Since then I 've tried to read =
as
widely as possible and tried to get some shit down on paper myself. I =
practically
live by Jack's "list of essentials". I had the =
pleasure
of seeing Ginsberg and Orlovsky read here in Nelson in 1979 and =
own
what I suppose is a bootleg copy of that night. =
<br><br><br>ciao,<br><br>-jacqui<br><br>List
of Essentials, #16: =
Work
from pithy middle eye out, from the jewel center of interest, =
swimming
in language sea.</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD1A16.4904DCA0--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:32:50 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: English major
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 98-01-05 19:33:22 EST, you write:
<<
i have little respect for most people on AOL >>
There
are 9 million people on AOL, I'm sure they'll be crushed.
Dennis
(English major/AOL subscriber)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:51:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <000898E4.3427@usoc.org>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
03:04 PM 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
> I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's
"Steal This Book" isn't on either
> list.
>
>I
imagine booksellers are tired of playing along with Abbie's little
joke. Why stock the book at all if it is only for
theft. In the seventies,
I saw
the book in stores, but haven't seen it since then. It was a pop book
of the
moment while Hoffman was hiding out somewhere in America, on the
lam
from a heroin selling charge. During
that time, he negotiated a TV
interview
of himself, with WNET in New York, in exchange for the then bulky
3/4
inch
videocassette
player. Abbie makes you wonder. He
seemed the most carefree and
joyous
of all the real life comedians of the sixties, and yet he must have
suffered
bouts of despair, the last one leading to his suicide, when the
country
started to grow more conservative, and he and Jerry Rubin were forced
to play
good cop and bad cop to one another on a national debate tour;
discussing
whether "twas nobler to pull out the stops for humanity (Hoffman),
or sell
out to the highest bidder (Rubin)."
Rubin's
position seems to have won the day, at least temporarily, but I
remember
Abbie more fondly than any of the other players who entertained
us
during the madness of the late sixties.
His motives seemed purer.
Mike
Rice
>
>
>______________________________
Reply Separator
_________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:51:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To: <19980105222232.650.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
02:22 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>Speaking
of movies..
>Does
anyone know if it's possible to find a copy of the movie, "Pull my
>Daisy"
which ginsberg and kerouac made way back when??
>I
have read about it a few different places and have pretty much never
>planned
on finding it but I thought I'd try.
>
>-Greg
>
>* *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Ginsberg
etc.
>http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
Try
Home Film Festival at 800-258-3456.
They have a
reputation
for renting independent and offbeat films.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:16:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
In-Reply-To:
<19980106003112.28202.qmail@hotmail.com>
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I think
you can talk the work of the three most famous
beat
writers to death, as occasionally happens on this
list. I view the List as a take-off point for
anything
anyone
might want to talk about. And don't
really object
to most
threads, save for the dreaded Gordian Knot that is
the
Kerouas estate.
I don't
mind even the intellectualism, if there is nothing
else. Something always bubbles to the fore
eventually.
Mike
Rice
At
04:31 PM 1/5/98 PST, you wrote:
>>>
If I remember correctly, LW changed his views about
>>>
language (he believed his views in _Tractutus_ were narrow,
>>>
and in _Philosophical Investigations_ he argues that
>>>
if one actually looks to see how language is used, the
>>>
variety of linguistic usage becomes clear.
Words
>>>
are like tools, and just as tools serve different
>>>
functions, so linguistic expressions serve many
>>>
functions). This recognition of linguistic flexibility and
>>>
variety led to his concept of a language game and to
>>>
the conclusion that people play different language games.
>>>
Trying to find out what WSB's take was on Wittgenstein's
>>>
theories. >>
>>
>>
>
>>Please
don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was
>>as
>>sterile
and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a
>book.
>>
>>Gotta
go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>>
>>ID
>>
>
>Exactly.
>
>Leave
dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, emotionless
>authors/poets/people.
>I
have seen such analytical, super-intellectualism in three places:
> In an AOL chat room (note: never visit
AOL chat rooms)
> At a talk by Jane Smiley between her
(although she seemed anxious
> (to end such talk) and an
english major in the audience.
> In physics' books.
>
>I
have absolutely nothing against english majors (I very well could
>become
one next year), i have little respect for most people on AOL and
>I
just really dislike physics.
>I
also have absolutely nothing against the writer of the first message,
>believe
me.
>
>With
good feelings all around,
>greg
>
>
>* *
* * * * * * * * * * *
>Ginsberg
etc.
>http://members.tripod.com
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:16:35 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
In-Reply-To:
<199801060046.SAA17705@core0.mx.execpc.com>
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At
06:45 PM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I
got my copy (of Pull My Daisy) from Beat Books in Berkeley.
>
>http://members.aol.com/beatshop/beatcat.html
>
>Good
luck!
>
>Jym
>
Fine,
did you pay for it?
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:17:43 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
In-Reply-To: <4918e886.34b1b3f4@aol.com>
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At
11:32 PM 1/5/98 EST, you wrote:
>In
a message dated 98-01-05 19:33:22 EST, you write:
>
><<
i have little respect for most people on AOL >>
>There
are 9 million people on AOL, I'm sure they'll be crushed.
>Dennis
(English major/AOL subscriber)
>
>
AOL
gets a terrible wrap whereever you go.
Apart from the
problems
they have been suffering for one solid year, I think
there
is nothing wrong with those 9 million folks.
Many have
an
aversion to dealing with the installation of software. Others
want to
carry their email with them when they travel, and the two
national
"Brands" allow you to do this, though I simply fire up
hotmail
on someone's computer, anywhere, to write someone.
By the
way, does anyone know of an email software that will allow
you to
create more than one personalized account and private code,
by
encoding the incoming and outgoing messages, so that as many
as
three or four people can use the same account and get total
email
privacy from one another. It would seem
to be a simple
software
trick to bring off. If anyone knows,
please write me
privately,
will you?
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:26:25 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Abbie
In-Reply-To: <000898E4.3427@usoc.org>
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Actually
Abbie Hoffman had attempted the same strategy with his first
book,
_Revolution for the Hell of It_, which he had written under the
pseudonym
Free, a pseudonym which he wanted splashed across the front
cover
so that people might think it meant the book was free.
Unfortunately,
the publishers decided to reduce the size of the
author-pseudonym
considerably.
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
On Mon,
5 Jan 1998, MATT HANNAN wrote:
> I'm surprised that Abbie Hoffman's
"Steal This Book" isn't on either
> list.
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>
Subject: Re: Most Stolen Books
>
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
>
Date: 1/5/98 4:36 PM
>
>
> At
13:45 05/01/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> According to Publisher's
Weekly:
>
>
>
> Books most likely to be stolen
from stores in New York City [would we
>
> consider this to be indicative
of the US in general? - Matt] include:
>
>
>
> Waiting to Exhale
>
> Jazz
>
> Playing in the Dark
>
> Silent Passage: Menopause
>
> Race
>
> Possessing the Secret of Joy
>
>
>
> Most stolen authors include:
>
>
>
> Annie Leibovitz
>
> Dr. Seuss
>
> Franz Kafka
>
> Jack Kerouac
>
> Malcolm X
>
>
> In
Australia, a list of most stolen books was published a couple of years ago.
>
>
Number 1 was WSB's "Junkie". Also feautured was "On The
Road". The
>
Mariujuana growers handbook ranked highly, as did a lot of Henry Miller
>
books.
>
> A
couple of the book stores I frequent place all their "Beat" and
>
"counterculture" stuff right up near the counter, to help deter
thieves.
>
>
Not sure what we can make from that!
>
>
Glenn C.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 02:31:12 EST
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From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
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Pull My
Daisy was finally released to video about a year or so ago. We have
it
available, as well as David Amram's CD of Pull My Daisy in our catalog. E-
mail
your snail-mail address to me and we'll mail you a catalog.
Speaking
of David Amram I spoke with him the other day and he informed me the
soundtrack
for the Manchurian Candidate which he recorded in early 60's was
just
released on CD last month for the first time.
Gave it a listen last week
and it
has a great jazz beat. We now carry it
at $16.98.
Jerry
Cimino
Fog
City Facts & Fiction
1-800-KER-OUAC
www.kerouac.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:02:57 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
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At
04:31 PM 1/5/98 PST, greg wrote:
>Leave
dry, emotionless theories to those studying dry, e
>motionless
authors/poets/people. I have seen such
>analytical,
super-intellectualism in three places:
>In
an AOL chat room (note: never visit AOL chat rooms)
>At
a talk by Jane Smiley between her (although she
>seemed
anxious (to end such talk) and an english
>major
in the audience. In physics' books.
Hmm, an
ex-psych/soc major (now Religion/Culture)
to be
exact. In respect to my original
question about
Wittgenstein
and Burroughs, I find it kind of funny to
be
flamed for a question, that I feel, has relevance to
Burroughs
and his works. I admit this topic may
not
appeal
to some, but the usual banal banterings of the
list
don't always appeal to me either - in other words,
I don't
criticize others for their posts, or the relevance
of
them.
<snip>
>With
good feelings all around,
Actually
a bad taste in the back of my mouth would
be more
suitable. I hope that your fear of
"super-
intellectualism"
wanes, and you learn how to effectively
use the
processes of analytical/critical thinking. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:14:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: English major
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At
12:16 AM 1/6/98 -0500, Mike Rice wrote:
>I
don't mind even the intellectualism, if there is nothing
>else. Something always bubbles to the fore
eventually.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A
perfect example of a Wittgenstein theory.
The
meaning of a proposition must be understood in
terms
of its context, that is, in terms of the rules
of the
game of which that proposition is a part. The
key to
the resolution of philosophical puzzles is the
therapeutic
process of examining and describing language
in
use. So, to a scientist this may mean
something
entirely
different than it would to an "english major." {;^>
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 05:21:11 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
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hello everyone, my name is julian, i was on
this list for awhile this
summer,
and now i have returned. i am from michigan, port huron, and i
am a
poet, musician, artist, philosopher, and traveler. i am 18, and
have
lived a life far beyond my years. i am a senior in highschool,
waiting
to get out.
anyway, that's me in a few words (and from my
perspective), so if there
are
people who would like to respond, please do, also, if there is
ANYONE
from michigan, PLEASE respond, i've nearly given up on culture
and
intelligence here in the "outhouse" of the united states.
-julian
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:02:15 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
Content-Type:
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Okay:
A few
things.
a) you
have all made excellent points about the necessity of language to
the
study of beats.
b) i
don't study the beats.
c) i
admire the beats.
d) i
don't attempt to mimic the beats when I write.
e) i
simply write however i feel is right and it usually makes me happy.
f) for
those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my
thing.
g) i
did _not_ mean that to be a personal attack... if it had been
personal
I would have said that the person who wrote the first message
was the
problem.
h) the
problem is the type of thinking that went into that message.
i) but
that is only my problem and i don't see why everyone else is
making
it their problem.
j) i am
a subscriber to aol.
k)
Montag15@aol.com
l) i
will probably be an english major next year.
m)
thank you to all those who gave me places to look for "pull my
daisy."
thank you,
good night,
greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Ginsberg
etc.
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:53:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: English major
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:02:57 -0500
from <cake@IONLINE.NET>
A
discussion on Burroughs and language is certainly appropriate for
Beat-l. In fact, it's much more of the type of
discussion I had in mind
when I
created the list. I hope to see more
serious, academic topics
discussed
on the list this year. Recently, in my
opinion, the list has
become
a little too chatty. There are a lot of
messages that should be
private
that are being posted to the list. I
agree with Mike, though,
that
it's better to be flexible than to be too rigid. I wouldn't want
the
list to turn into a *purely* academic forum.
If one insn't
interested
in a thread, one can simply use the delete key.
As a
reminder to everyone, I thought it might be a good idea to re-post
the
scope note all of you received in the welcome message: "Beat-l is an
online
discussion forum devoted to the lives and works of the writers of
the
Beat Generation, especially Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and
William
Burroughs. In addition to serving as an
outlet for discussion,
Beat-l
is intended to facilitate scholarly communication and to serve as
a
bulletin board or calendar for poetry readings, announcements of new
publications,
upcoming conferences, and related events." And as our New
Year's
resolution, let's all try to remember to treat each other with
civility
and respect.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:15:20 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: river city reunion
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patricia
and i are having a river city reunion for two --
the cat
just crashed it so now there's three
david
rhaesa
at the
Beat-Hotel
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:28:22 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
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Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
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Greg
Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
>
Okay:
>
> A
few things.
> f)
for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my
>
thing.
or not
my thang -- the African for thing according to Tom Wolfe
david
rhaesa
at the
Beat-Hotel
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:55:51 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: julian
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In a
message dated 98-01-06 08:35:39 EST, you write:
julian,
have
lived a life far beyond my years.
~~~~not
to demean your experiences, for i know not you or your life, how is it
that
you have lived a life far beyond your years? traveling? thoughts? many
experiences
compact into a short span of time into your town that are just
unusual
for a person your age? of this i am curious.......for i am also your
age and
i was under the same impression of myself up until my first semester
of
college (which has since greatly humbled any sense of intelligence or
transcending
the dreary plain of my high school chums, of i thought i
possessed,
for the sheer immensity of the world that is beyond my senses and
experiences
thus to date)....one example: being involved in a War.
PLEASE
respond, i've nearly given up on culture and intelligence here in the
"outhouse"
of the united states.
~~~i
think there can be a certain beauty to an "outhouse", lacking
intelligence
or not........perception of intelligence and culture, i think,
can be
relative......it would be easy for me to generalize my podunk town that
i've
lived in all my life as redneck and lacking any semblance of
intelligence.......but
that would be a gross
overgeneralization on my part,
for i
don't know a tenth of the people here.....and intelligence is not the
end all
to life......there might be an emotional tenderness to this outhouse
which
puts intelligence to shame.......but what i thought i learned in high
school
has made me cynical to the effect of presuming that all is void in my
little
county(unless, of course, you've got less than a thousand people in
your town,
which, in that case, just ignore everything previously said ;o))
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 07:57:22 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Content-Type:
text/plain
hello again everyone, i was just wondering,
are there any avid
hitch-hikers
out there anymore?....
sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
please reply if you are or are willing to try
it using the "buddy"
system.
i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
summer,
and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
real
lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
"on
the road"
-julian
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:20:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To:
<199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>
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Im a
hitchiker in my dreams, if that counts for anything. I feel too tied
down by
my life to take off and also, its not very safe for girls on the
road,
or thats the perception I get anyway...
On Tue,
6 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> hello again everyone, i was just wondering,
are there any avid
>
hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
> please reply if you are or are willing to
try it using the "buddy"
>
system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>
summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
> real
lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
>
"on the road"
>
-julian
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:19:43 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: alexander supertramp
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In a
message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
<<
who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
if your
name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours
is,
what awaits is death.
have
you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:21:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: German
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can
anyone read german on this list?
if so,
i was wondering if it was at all possible that you(singular or plural)
could
perhaps translate a few small poems for me from kathy acker's "my
mother:
demonology"......seeing as how the book in itself is confusing enough,
i
thought perhaps my comprehension of it might increase if i knew what she was
plagirizing
or saying in the german parts
gracias,
brian