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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:25:27 EST
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: New Orleans
I'm
planning to be in New Orleans this weekend.
If anyone there would
like to
have a drink, please email me at wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu. I also
thought
I'd go by Burroughs' house to look at that new plaque. If
whoever
posted on this recently still has the address or directions to
the
house, I'd appreciate it if you would post them to be at the above
address.
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:48:48 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: New Orleans
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Bill,
do you mean williams house here in lawrence or do you mean a house
in New
orleans. There is going to be an art
show of some of williams
last
collaboration in art in New orleans.
If you
come to lawrence, i would love to have a cuppa with you.
patricia
Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
>
I'm planning to be in New Orleans this weekend. If anyone there would
>
like to have a drink, please email me at wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu. I also
>
thought I'd go by Burroughs' house to look at that new plaque. If
>
whoever posted on this recently still has the address or directions to
>
the house, I'd appreciate it if you would post them to be at the above
>
address.
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:50:12 -0500
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From: MATT HANNAN
<MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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I remember him. Didn't Tim Cahill or some such author recently write
a book about him?
If he read the Beats at all he apparently
read Kerouac without paying
much attention to Japhy's advice to
"know the woods".
Stupid way to die.
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________
Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:
alexander supertramp
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 1/6/98 11:19 AM
In a
message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
<<
who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
if your
name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours
is,
what awaits is death.
have
you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
brian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:51:16 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: German
In-Reply-To: <c2725bf1.34b25a16@aol.com>
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Brian,
I speak German fluently, and am finishing up my bachelor's degree in
it.:)
I'd be happy to translate some poems for you!!!
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:03:27 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Debra di Blasi
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Debra
Di Blasi
"People
content to name the will's inevitable defeat `God' or `History' will
not
long endure these restless stories. Di Blasi writes for the rest of us,
the
comfortless unconfessed of us." - H.L. Hix
has
anyone on this list read either of her two novellas below and if so,
whereever
did you find them?
"Drought"
or "Say What You Like"
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:09:35 +0000
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From: James Stauffer
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Thanks
to Bill for his recent post on this thread.
It was my understanding that
discussions
like this one on Borroughs and Wittgenstein were exactly the sort of
thing
that the Beat-L was for. My memory of
the list two years ago was that
there
was much more of it. Not everyone will
be interested in every thread, but
these
things open doors for the people who are looking at these issues. I love
the
personal and chatty too--and have been guilty of it enough, but it is nice
to see
some serious thinking on issues like this on the list again.
James
IDDHI
wrote:
>
>
>
Please don't take this personally, but who gives a shit? If prose was as
>
sterile and ho-hum as that theory and passage above, I'd never crack a book.
>
>
Gotta go read some Hank before I die of starvation.
>
> ID
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:09:06 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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In a
message dated 98-01-06 12:06:18 EST, you write:
<< I remember him. Didn't Tim Cahill or some such author recently write
a book about him?
~~~yes,
a book was written about him within the past year or two
If he read the Beats at all he
apparently read Kerouac without paying
much attention to Japhy's advice to
"know the woods".
~~~seriously
Stupid way to die.
~~~yes,
most unfortunately
>>
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:19:00 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: German
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oh most
gracias to you, my newfound friend!!!!!!!!!!
;o)
the
first one:
eingeweiht
in der Liebe
aber
erst hier-
als die
Lava herabfuhr
und ihr
Hauch uns traf
am Fuss
des Berges,
als
zuletzt der erschvpfte Krater
den
Schl|ssel preisgab
f|r
diese verschlossenen Kvrper-
Wir
traten ein in verwunschene Ra|me
und
leuchteten das Dunkelaus
mit den
Fingerspitzen
another
one....
Innen
ist deine Hufte ein Landungssteg
f|r
meine Schiffe, die heimkommen
von zu
grossen Fahrten.
Das
Gl|ck wirkt ein Silbertau,
an dem
ich Defestigt liege.
another........
Innen
ist dein Mund ein flaumiges Nest
f|r
meine fl|gge werdende Zunge.
Innen
ist dein Fleisch...
das ich
mit meinen Trdnen wasche
und das
mich einmal aufwiegen wird.
fragment...
Innen
sind deine Knochen helle Flvten,
aus
denen ich Tvne zaubern kann,
die
auch den Tod bestricken werden...
the
last one
Ich bin
noch schuldig. Heb mich auf.
Ich bin
nicht schuldig. Heb mich auf.
Das
Eiskorn lvs vom zugefrornen Aug,
brich
mit den Blicken ein,
die
blauen Grunde such,
schwimm,
schau und tauch:
Ich bin
es nicht.
Ich
bin's.
thank
you very much for whatever you can translate.......very much appreciated
brian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:20:43 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: hakim bey
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has
anyone ever read any poetry by a person named hakim bey?
brian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:27:32 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: perhaps someone might find an interest
in this
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sorry
for some of the lines missing here and there - brian
i am
posting this mainly to see if anyone has a reaction........maybe some of
you
have read it before....got it off of a website
THE
SELF-NARRATING UNIVERSE;
THE
ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY PRINCIPLE AND POSTMODERN LITERATURE
by
David
Porush
Professor
of Literature
Dept.
LL&C
Rensselaer
Polytechnic Institute
Troy,
New York 12180
e-mail:
porusd@rpi.edu
PH:
(518) 276-8262
THE
ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGICAL PRINCIPLE
The earth is quite friendly to life. Were
the temperatures at certain
times
in evolutionary history different by only a few degrees, or were gravity
much
stronger or weaker, or were we further away from the sun or any closer,
or were
water less abundant than it is, or for that matter, if any of the laws
of
physics operated differently than they do, then life would never have
occurred
on Earth. Think of the enormous collaboration among accidents that
made
evolution itself possible. It becomes easy, then, to imagine an Earth
devoid
of human intelligence. Change any little aspect of nature and you get a
sterile
planet. Changing even one of the constants in physics -- gravitation,
the
speed of light, Planck's constant, the coupling constant of the strong
force
that binds nuclei, etc. -- would make life impossible. [Wesson, 1991
Carter,
1974]
But were these series of hazards and
circumstances merely accidental? Or
does
the universe conspire to bring intelligence into being? Is it possible
that
one of the fundamental laws of the universe is that INTELLIGENT LIFE MUST
ARISE?
Or to put it another way, is it possible the universe as we know it
couldn't
exist unless we knew it? Approximately twenty years ago, Brandon
Carter,
a physicist and philosopher posed the problem, and initiated a debate
that
has raged since then, by pointing out an aspect of nature that is
crushingly
obvious and yet peculiarly postmodern:
The conditions of the
universe
we observe must be such that they can produce an intelligent observer
of the
universe, i.e., humans.
This idea is at the same time both very
disturbing and humorously
Panglossian
(or Liebnizian, I guess we might say, since Voltaire based his
Pangloss
on that physicist). Everything has been ordered so things come out
for the
best, from our perspective anyway. "In other words," as one physicist
notes,
"the universe has the properties we observe today because if its
earlier
properties had been much different, we would not be here as observers
now."
(Gale, 1981) This Anthropic Principle ("AP" for short) has a whole
range
of
possible interpretations, from a rather weak formulation to very strong
paradigm
that involves metaphysical considerations, willy nilly. Weak AP
inspects
various physical phenomena with an eye to noting how they were
constrained
within limits that were favorable to the origin of life and to
intelligence,
looking for a collection of odd or striking coincidences that
collaborate
to make the human mind possible (Davies, 1982; Leslie, 1989).Thus,
weak AP
is a sort of functional gatekeeper on cosmological models, reminding
the
physicist that any narrative of how the cosmos came to evolve the way it
did
cannot permit factors which would preclude the emergence of life and
intelligence.
By contrast, Strong AP suggests that
water flows and protons and neutrons
bind
and DNA molecules zip and coil as they do because these phenomena made us
possible
as observers to catalog them. In other words, Strong AP suggests that
the
preconditions of the universe exist because
they
made it possible for us to arrive on the scene to observe them, a cosmic
variation
on the question of whether a tree falling in the forest makes a
sound
if noone is there is hear it. The strongest AP goes so far as to suggest
that
the universe has been purposefully organized in order to produce
intelligence
(Hoyle, 1984; Davies, 1983). This implies that the conditions for
making
intelligence possible feed back into the system, constraining which
branches
of possibility universal evolution can take.
AP has been strengthened by startling
results from a variety of
scientific
disciplines as well as by some interesting speculations. Sub-atomic
particle
behavior; biological and chemical organization; formal set theory;
coincidences
in the recurrence of certain large numbers in physical formulas
(first
noted by A.P. Dirac and elevated to the status of a unifying theory by
Eddington;
see Dicke, 1961); the spontaneous emergence of complex, self-
organizing
systems out of chaos; fairly substantive speculations about the
role of
super-ordinate fields or multi-dimensional substrates that organize
our
three-dimensional material reality; and even an hypothesis that the
universe
is a giant super-computer designed to solve some unspecified problem,
which
sounds more like a Vonnegut paranoid fantasy than good cosmology, but it
has
received quite a bit of respectable attention (see Wright's 1985
discussion
of Edward Fredkin's hypothesis). In addition to theological views
that
I'll explore below, these help support the case that there is something
quite
special about the interplay between the forces of nature and the
existence
of intelligent observers that goes well beyond the interrelationship
of
observer and observed in quantum physics.
REACTING
TO ANTHROPIC COSMOLOGY
Even Weak AP present several shocks to
our commonsense, modernist notions
of how
nature operates. The most obvious is the tautological "feel" of this
reasoning:
"everything is the way it is because if it were elsewise, they
would
be different (or more precisely, X, which we know to exist, would not
have
come into existence)." Filling the variable X with the idea of an
intelligent
observer is only a red herring, for it could just as easily be
filled
by "these brown wing-tipped Oxfords."
Of course Strong AP poses even greater
challenges. Common sense tells us
that
the preconditions of the universe that made life possible caused life. In
what
way can our presence now possibly have influenced events which came
billions
of years before us? But our biases about causality are bound up in
very
human ideas about the arrow of time (Lewis, 1986) Physicists know there
are
many arenas of the universe where time's arrow must be viewed as moving
both
forwards and backwards in order to make sense of what we know, and so can
ideas
of causality. Quantum physics has exposed whole arenas of subatomic
phenomena,
and astrophysics and more orthodox cosmology, have potrayed regions
around
black holes where commonsense notions of causation simply do not apply.
Furthermore,
quantum mechanics has already shown us that there are events
which
cannot happen the way they do unless an observation is made of them.
Check
your sense of time, space, and causation at the door, ladies and
gentlemen,
we're entering the realm of postmodern physics.
Perhaps the most disturbing idea in AP is
the tacit attribution of
teleology
- an intentionality or purposiveness - to the universe. As good
modernists,
we have been accustomed to view this cosmos as a blind, reeling,
entropic,
contingent, godless place, an egalitarian abode (in the Copernican
sense)
where the universe treats all things with equal indifference, granting
no
special status or favors to anyplace or any entity, a universal play where
humanity
makes a haphazard appearance on stage and yet where noone else is
watching
to appreciate our performance, or for that matter, the performance of
nature's
grand design.
With shocking simplicity, AP suggests the
show is all for our benefit; we
are the
crown of creation. It's anthropomorphization (or anthropocentralism)
on a
scale we haven't seen since Medieval theology. It encourages discussions
about
reconciliations between ancient beliefs in God as Primum Mobile, man as
created
in God's image, and a re-unification of spiritual and scientific
knowledge,
of physics and metaphysics, on grounds favorable to metaphysics
(McLean,
1991; Peacocke, 1991; Smith, 1991; Nelson, 1991). Certainly the
Anthropic
Principle in its strongest or broadest formulation invites an
equation
between the actions and characteristics of the Universe and some
universal
Intentional Impulse, a purpose, a because. We're here because the
Universe
brought us into being so we could worship (or at least observe) It.
The most cogent objection to this
metaphysical brand of AP, it seems to
me,
points to a sort of tautology lurking in its premise: As soon as you look
at the
universe as a place with a purpose, then you are already giving it an
intention,
a mind. Nonetheless, it is hard to
resist the clear attraction of
an
emergent paradigm the lies somewhere between anthropic cosmology and anti-
chaos
or complexity which points to the inevitable creation of more complex
systems
out of less complex ones -- the rise of what Wiener called local
islands
of organization in the universal tide toward entropy -- which has
created
galaxies and the Earth's biosphere. It is also hard to deny that human
intelligence
represents the ultimate expression of that complexity, re-
centering
human life as an anti-entropic force. Even a moderately weak AP
challenges
the evolutionary view of how higher levels of organization and
control
emerge. In moderate AP, the matehamtics of blind variation and natural
selection
simply don't work out; mere accident cannot explain the remarkable
fine-tuning
required for the universe to have given rise to life, let alone
human
intelligence (see Balashov, 1991 for a review of this position; see
Jantsch,
1980 for a rebuttal).
There is no space here to give more than
this glancing account of the
very
rich literature and debate this emergent paradigm has provoked. The major
and
most rigorous discussion of AP occurs in a variety of reputable physics,
astrophysics,
general science, and philosophy journals. An encyclopedic
account,
The Anthropic Cosmological Principle (Barrow & Tipler, 1986) received
such
vociferous and voluminous reaction that one writer estimated that the
letters
and reviews alone would fill another volume of equal size. I would
also
refer my readers to a very good, recent summary of AP in the American
Journal
of Physics (Balashov, 1991), which also serves as a resource letter
and
bibliography about AP. However, for our purposes, AP begs some very
provocative
questions about how we view the relations between scientific
discourse
and literary narrative, and it also suggests a route to a synthesis
between
them, as I hope to show in the rest of this paper.
LITERARY
THEORY, NEO-CRYPTO-COPERNICANISM, AND STRONG AP: THE
SELF-NARRATING
UNIVERSE
Balashov
(1991) frames the foundation for the Anthropic Principle in this
intriguing
way:
AP was proposed as a counterbalance to
the unwarranted extension of the
Copernican
view that we do not occupy a privileged place in the Universe to
its
extreme dogmatic version that our place cannot be privileged in any way.
I don't think it's a stretch to suggest
that most constructivists,
poststructuralists,
deconstructionists and New Historicists - and therefore
much of
the theory that informs debate in the humanistic disciplines today,
even, I
venture, at this conference - are orthodox Copernicans in this sense
as
well. We narrativists adamantly refuse to privilege any discourse or theory
or
paradigm that posits an a priori term or is nostalgic for an aboriginal
source
of meaning. Yet, as Balashov points out, this Copernican
egalitarianism,
at least from the point of view of nature, "is obviously
untrue,
since our mere existence as complex physiochemical creatures requires
certain
conditions that are met only in particular sites in the Universe and
at some
definite stages in its physical history."
I
call this cosmological model offered by Strong AP "The Self- Narrating
Universe,"
since it views the Universe as struggling to give birth to
intelligence
in order to create an observer exactly like us. In this scenario,
a
mechanical device that registers events as they occur and merely records
data
won't do. Rather, the Universe requires a decidedly human observer who
cannot
help but abstract data, leap to conclusions, make metaphorical
connections,
invest silence with significance ... in short, Tell the
Universe's
Story based upon what it understands. I am even, at times, tempted
to call
AP cosmology "The Meaning Universe" because AP does not simply
portray
a world
where intelligence narrates an idle series of events but rather invest
the
world with meaning.
Let me indulge a personal digression for
the sake of an analogy. Here at
Rensselaer
I co-direct a research project - Autopoeisis - that has developed a
"story-telling
program." The computer simulates a series of events and
encounters
among characters in a microworld (simulator) and then recounts them
as they
occur, without regard to the coherence of the story or any other
feature.
Gameworld (as we affectionately call it) is no more intelligent, by
this
metric, than a digital clock that "tells" time. By contrast, an
intelligent
human story teller, even an unsophisticated one, chooses,
rearranges,
omits, embellishes and shapes any delivery of information. One of
the
questions my physician asks my five-year old son this week when he was
taking
his complete physical is "Can you tell a story?" And one of the great
lessons
of postmodernism for all disciplines is that there is no non-fictive
narrative,
no weightless, transparent delivery of information from one human
to
another. The human narrator is self-conscious and self-reflective always,
implicitly
or explicitly. AP implies a world where all events are meaningfully
disposed
towards creating the very intelligence that narrates them
meaningfully,
like a human, not the machine, storyteller. The result is a
purposeful
feedback loop, very much like postmodern stories where the function
of the
story is to demonstrate how it came to be told, and where the self-
consciousness
or tail-biting interplay between story and teller moves to the
foreground
of the narrative. In short, Strong AP implies a world where form
and
function, purpose and result, are united in the creation of an
intelligence
that can tell that story. Throughout his oeuvre Samuel Beckett's
question
was, "Am I the teller or the told?" AP suggests the answer to this
ontological-epistemological
question is "both."
AP AND
THE SYNTHESIS OF POSTMODERN SCIENCE AND LITERATURE
C.P. Snow was right, in his own fussy
way. The great dialectic of our
culture
is captured in the contrast between the discourses of literature and
the
discourses of the sciences. But this is not a result of simple differences
in
education, as C.P. Snow suggested, nor even in any hostility between
scientists
and authors as Snow implied, nor even one of mere temperament.
Rather,
it is the result of the devotion by scientists and litterateurs to two
different
epistemologies, two different ways of expressing what they are
trying
to know and two different visions of what it is valuable to know. And
these
epistemological points of view are as mutually exclusive and command as
profound
a commitment by their adherents as any fundamental faiths do.
A quick way to understand this dialectic
is as follows: three hundred
years
of science persistently excluded or de-privileged the human self as an
intentional,
expressive object from scientific discourse. At the same time,
science
also lacked a coherent formal model of natural language. As the result
of its
rationalist inheritance and its persistent objectification of the
observer,
science relies on a discourse that has had inordinate difficulty
enfolding
or describing its own acts of knowing. From the very early days of
the
Royal Society when Wilkins and Sprat failed in their attempt to define a
pure
language of science, devoid of metaphor or embellishment, science has
never
successfully purged the messiness of metaphor and the polysemy of human
language
from its mise-en-scene. And while the Newtonian-Copernican-Carteisan
paradigm
pretended to exile the human observer from the stage of science, we
now
know that Newton's sleep was an aberrant age, a temporary hallucination
that
history will undoubtedly consign to a minority view. The postmodern
sciences
that bring this struggle into relief are quantum mechanics, the study
of
nature at the subatomic level, and cybernetics, the study of how
information
is used in systems of control and communication. By Norbert
Wiener's
own account (Wiener, 1947) cybernetics grew out of a direct attempt
to
remove the human mind from the picture of physics where the Heisenberg
Uncertainty
Principle had placed it- to banish the human mind from the
epistemological
loop. By giving an algorithm for the information required to
reduce
the probablism in the sub-atomic scenario, and by proposing a
mechanical/formal
explanation of control systems like the human mind,
cyberneticists
like Wiener, von Neumann, and Turing hoped to create a complete
and
consistent rational system that did not need a subjective observer to be
understood.
Nonetheless, these two phenomena - the intelligent self (the mind)
and
language - are certainly mirrors of each other. That is why Alan Turing
believed
that we know a creature is intelligent when it can use language
intelligently
and he positioned such a belief as the essential test of
intelligence
in a machine brain, a test that still informs AI debate. Yet when
science
comes to inspect the seat of intelligence, the brain/mind, it is
virtually
silent on the point of self- knowledge or self-consciousness and
quite
dumb on the matter of how language expresses mental events. Scientific
language
reduces or eliminates all those things that make literature
interesting,
exciting, stimulating -- or in a word, literary: ambiguity,
competing
interpretations, silence, paranomasia, passion, multiple meanings,
mystery,
and metaphor. By contrast, literature has always been, in part,
discourse
that foregrounds the self using language.
So in this postmodern technological age,
what I have elsewhere called the
Cybernetic
Age, when the question of how the mind uses languages has come to
dominate
center stage across the disciplines, a postmodern literature has
arisen
to underscore this difference in discourses. If the important
literature
of our age has any common feature, it is the shared attempt to
register
the difficulties of using language to capture knowledge and express
experience.
Some might even argue that such a concern is common to all
literatures
of any age. Yet many significant postmodern authors - William
Burroughs,
Samuel Beckett, Mark Leyner, Italo Calvino, Kathy Acker, Joseph
McElroy,
Thomas Pynchon, John Barth, Umberto Eco, Don DeLillo, Donald
Barthelme,
Robert Coover, Marianne Hauser, Laurie Anderson, William Gibson,
Bruce
Sterling, Philip K. Dick, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., among others - record
their
struCybernetic Age, when the question of how the mind uses languages has
come to
dominate center stage across the disciplines, a postmodern literature
has
arisen to underscore this difference in discourses.
The motivation behind this choice of
cybernetics is fairly obvious: after
all,
the cybernetics of Norbert Weiner, John von Neumann, and Alan Turing
claimed
to develop a rational and complete system for formalizing
communication
and information, especially human communication: in short, the
very
stuff of what literature claims as its own. However, in its relatively
naive
attempt to formulate a mathematics of information, science discovered
something
that all literary acts express tacitly: Information cannot be
understood
in a vacuum. Any significant communication cannot be calculated,
let
alone deciphered, apart from the disposition of the system of meaning in
which
it is imbedded. Indeed, as the literary text always signals, information
is
context. When treated as a simple quantity, information literally doesn't
"make
sense." You can refine the way telephones transmit information, but you
can do
little to make sense of what the information means to the people
conversing
on either end of the line.
For the postmodern author, negating this
premise is simple. The author
needs
merely to use language with such a degree of complexity and meaningful
indecipherability
that he or she exposes the impossibility of creating a
formal
system to account for the amount of information in, say, even a single
metaphor
or turn of phrase. The message of these "cybernetic" (or better,
"anti-cybernetic")
fictions is clear: the artistic use of language offers a
more
complete, if irrational, discourse about the facts of our experience,
including
our experience of phenomena outside ourselves. In brief, what marks
literary
epistemology is a discourse which is explicitly concerned with itself
as an
act of human knowledge. As Julia Kristeva quipped, "The purpose of
literature
is to enlarge the domain of the human." In an era when the prospect
of
intelligent machines and the technologization or automation of human
experience
looms large, literature has a special urgency in pressing back.
In the intervening years, conventional
science has done little to address
this
important distinction between information and meaning, or to paraphrase
cyberneticist
Gordon Pask, between a stipulation of a system's message and its
purpose.
In literary terms, we would say merely that science lacks an account
of its
own point of view. Science has no formulation for the fact of its own
intelligent
narrative that is as satisfying or as comfortable as the ones we
normally
assume in narrative disciplines like literature, where the fact of
the
human mind as both object and subject of discourse is the predicate for
all
other work.
I view this tension in science between
the mind's meaningful narration
and
what it purports to observe, both in the external world and the internal ,
mental
world as THE postmodern question, informing not only the sciences but
giving
a fertile territory for much of the interesting literature of our
period.
In essence, into the gap created by science's own inability to deal
with
the fact of the observer, rushes a postmodern literary program: to prove
the
relative epistemological potency of literature in the face of a general
epistemological
impotence of any other rational program. In other words,
postmodern
authors like Pynchon, Barth, Beckett, Acker, and many others have
made
irrational hay while the rational sun of science still shines.
Now, science's own methods have brought
it to confront, almost despite
itself,
the question of the proper relation between mind and nature, and
between
the discourse of mind and the order of the cosmos. As a result, AP
suggests
a strong and more-than-metaphorical correspondence between the
concerns
of postmodern literature and science. Both Weak and Strong AP are
united
by the need to develop a formal model of the universe that will enfold
or
account for the existence of the human mind, as opposed to relying on
formal
mathematical descriptions of the dynamics of matter and energy
interactions
or of neutral information in a system. Rather than focusing on
interactions
among things in space-time or on the properties of spacetime
itself,
AP inspects all data in terms of how well it explains the fact of
human
intelligence, indeed the very same human intelligence that is
examiningthose
facts. Thus AP is a scientific paradigm that reads like a self-
reflexive
postmodern
fiction. So AP - an expressly postmodern science -
shares an epistemological
ideal
with postmodern literature:
PORUSH'S
PRINCIPLE OF EPISTEMOLOGICAL POTENCY
Descriptions of any intelligent system
(and the Universe is obviously
one;
fictional texts create others) in order to achieve epistemolgoical
potency
must include accounts not only of how the system is regulated and
organized,
and of how it communicates among its own parts, but also of how it
knows
and describes itself.
In other words, Any epistemologically
potent system must include a
discourse
that enfolds its own intelligence.
The Cosmic Anthropic Principle, then,
suggests a pure synthesis on the
level
of meaningful narrative between the two epistemologies of literature and
science
by offering the first scientific paradigm to embrace itself as an act
of
human knowledge. AP is struggling to describe how the human narrative of
the
cosmos is not mere reportage but fundamentally creative of and essential
to the
structure of reality.
SOURCES
CITED
Barrow,
J.D. and F.J. Tipler, 1986 The Anthropic Cosmological Principle
Clarendon,
Oxford.
Balashov,
Y.V. 1991 "Resource Letter AP-1: The anthropic pricniple," Am.
J.
Physics 59 (12):1069-1076
Campbell,
J. 1989 The Improbable Machine Simon & Schuster, New York.
Carter,
Brandon 1974 "Large Number Coincidences and the Anthropic
Principle
in Cosmology," Confrontation of Cosmological Theories with
Observational
Data: Proceedings of the Second Copernicus Symposium ,
edited
by M.A. Longair. D. Reidel Publishing Co, 1974.
Dicke,
R.H. 1961 "Dirac's Cosmology and Mach's Principle," Nature 192
440-441
Davies,
P.C. W. 1982 The Accidental Universe Cambridge UP.
Davies,
P. 1983 God and the New Physics (Dent & Sons, London 1983)
Gale,
George 1981 "The Anthropic Principle," Scientific American 243,
6:154-171
Jantsch,
E. 1980 The Self-Organizing Universe Pergamon, Oxford.
Leslie,
J. 1989 Universes. Routledge, London & New York.
Leslie,
J. 1991 "Time and the Anthropic Principle," Mind 101,
403:525-540.
Lewis,
David 1986 "Counterfactual Dependence and Time's Arrows," in his
Philosophical
Papers , II. Oxford, Oxford University Press: 32-66.
McLean,
Murdith 1991 "Residual Natural Evil and Anthropic Reasoning," J.
Rel.
Stud
27:173-188.
Nelson,
James S. 1991 "Does Science Clarify God's Relation to the
World?"
Zygon 26,4::519-525
Peacocke,
Arthur, 1991 "God's Action in the Real World," Zygon 26,
4::455-476
Pochet,
T. et al. 1991 "The binding of light nuclei and the anthropic
principle,"
Astronomy & Astrophysics 243:1-4
Porush,
D. 1985 The Soft Machine: Cybernetic Fiction , Methuen, London,
1985.
Porush,
D. 1988 "Whatever Happened to Nature in the Postmodern Novel:
The
Three Umpires Conundrum" in Perceiving Nature edited by D.M. DeLuca.
Honolulu,
1988: 178-185.
Smith,
Quentin 1991 "The Anthropic Coincidences, Evil, and the
Disconfirmation
of Theism" J. Rel. Stud 29:347-350
Wesson,
Paul S. "Constants and Cosmology: The Nature and Origin of
Fundamental
Constants in Astrophysics and Particle Physics" Phys. Rev
365-406
Winograd,
T. 1981 "What Does it Mean to Understand Language?" in Donald
Norman,
ed. Perspectives on Cognitive Science. Norwood, N.J: Ablex
Publishing.
Wright,
R. 1985 "The On -Off Universe," The Sciences (Jan/Feb) 7.
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The
Need for Transcendence in the Postmodern World
In this
postmodern world, cultural conflicts are becoming more dangerous than
any
time in history. A new model of coexistence is needed, based on man's
transcending
himself.
By
Vaclav Havel
There
are thinkers who claim that, if the modern age began with the discovery
of
America, it also ended in America. This is said to have occurred in the
year
1969, when America sent the first men to the moon. From this historical
moment,
they say, a new age in the life of humanity can be dated.
I think
there are good reasons for suggesting that the modern age has ended.
Today,
many things indicate that we are going thorough a transitional period,
when it
seems that something is on the way out and something else is painfully
being
born. It is as if something were crumbling, decaying, and exhausting
itself,
while something else, still indistinct, were arising from the rubble.
Periods
of history when values undergo a fundamental shift are certainly not
unprecedented.
This happened in the Hellenistic period, when from the ruins of
the
classical world the Middle Ages were gradually born. It happened during
the
Renaissance, which opened the way to the modern era. The distinguishing
features
of such transitional periods are a mixing and blending of cultures
and a
plurality or parallelism of intellectual and spiritual worlds. These are
periods
when all consistent value systems collapse, when cultures distant in
time
and space are discovered or rediscovered. They are periods when there is
a
tendency to quote, to imitate, and to amplify, rather than to state with
authority
or integrate. New meaning is gradually born from the encounter, or
the
intersection, of many different elements.
Today,
this state of mind or of the human world is called postmodernism. For
me, a
symbol of that state is a Bedouin mounted on a camel and clad in
traditional
robes under which he is wearing jeans, with a transistor radio in
his
hands and an ad for Coca-Cola on the camel's back. I am not ridiculing
this,
nor am I shedding an intellectual tear over the commercial expansion of
the
West that destroys alien cultures. I see it rather as a typical expression
of this
multicultural era, a signal that an amalgamation of cultures is taking
place.
I see it as proof that something is happening, something is being born,
that we
are in a phase when one age is succeeding another, when everything is
possible.
Yes, everything is possible, because our civilization does not have
its own
unified style, its own spirit, its own aesthetic.
Science
and Modern Civilization
This is
related to the crisis, or to the transformation, of science as
the
basis of the modern conception of the world.The dizzying development of
this
science, with its unconditional faith in objective reality and its
complete
dependency on general and rationally knowable laws, led to the birth
of modern
technological civilization. It is the first civilization in the
history
of the human race that spans the entire globe and firmly binds
together
all human societies, submitting them to a common global destiny. It
was
this science that enabled man, for the first time, to see each objective
reality
and its complete dependency on general and rationally knowable
At the
same time, however, the relationship to the world that the modern
science
fostered and shaped now appears to have exhausted its potential. It is
increasingly
clear that, strangely, the relationship is missing something. It
fails
to connect with the most intrinsic nature of reality and with natural
human
experience. It is now more of a source of disintegration and doubt than
a
source of integration and meaning. It produces what amounts to a state of
schizophrenia:
Man as an observer is becoming completely alienated from
himself
as a being.
Classical
modern science described only the surface of things, a single
dimension
of reality. And the more dogmatically science treated it as the only
dimension,
as the very essence of reality, the more misleading it became.
Today,
for instance, we may know immeasurably more about the universe than our
ancestors
did, and yet, it increasingly seems they knew something more
essential
about it than we do, something that escapes us. The same thing is
true of
nature and of ourselves. The more thoroughly all our organs and their
functions,
their internal structure, and the biochemical reactions that take
place
within them are described, the more we seem to fail to grasp the spirit,
purpose,
and meaning of the system that they create together and that we
experience
as our unique "self".
And
thus today we find ourselves in a paradoxical situation. We enjoy all the
achievements
of modern civilization that have made our physical existence on
this
earth easier so in many important ways. Yet we do not know exactly what
to do
with ourselves, where to turn. The world of our experiences seems
chaotic,
disconnected, confusing. There appear to be no integrating forces, no
unified
meaning, no true inner understanding of phenomena in our experience of
the
world. Experts can explain anything in the objective world to us, yet we
understand
our own lives less and less. In short, we live in the postmodern
world,
where everything is possible and almost nothing is certain.
When
Nothing is Certain
This
state of affairs has its social and political consequences. The single
planetary
civilization to which we all belong confronts us with global
challenges.
We stand helpless before them because our civiliza
planetary
civilization to which we all belong confronts us with global
challenges.
We stand helpless before them because our civilization has
essentially
globalized only the surfaces of our lives. But our inner self
continues
to have a life of its own. And the fewer answers the era of rational
knowledge
provides to the basic questions of human Being, the more deeply it
would
seem that people, behind its back as it were, cling to the ancient
certainties
of their tribe. Because of this, individual cultures, increasingly
lumpe
Cultural
conflicts are increasing and are understandably more dangerous today
than at
any other time in history. The end of the era of rationalism has been
catastrophic.
Armed with the same supermodern
weapons,
often from the same suppliers, and followed by television cameras,
the
members of various tribal cults are at war with one another. By day, we
work
with statistics; in the evening, we consult astrologers and frighten
ourselves
with thrillers about vampires. The abyss between rational and the
spiritual,
the external and the internal, the objective and the subjective,
the
technical and the moral, the universal and the unique, constantly grows
deeper.
Politicians
are rightly worried by the problem of finding the key to ensure
the
survival of a civilization that is global and at the same time clearly
multicultural.
How can generally respected mechanisms of
peaceful
coexistence be set up, and on what set of principles are they to be
established?
These
questions have been highlighted with particular urgency by the two most
important
political events in the second half of the twentieth century: the
collapse
of colonial hegemony and the fall of communism. The artificial world
order
of the past decades has collapsed, and a new, more-just order has not
yet
emerged. the central political task of the final years of this century,
then,
is the creation of a new model of coexistence among the various
cultures,
peoples, races, and religious spheres within a single interconnected
civilization.
This task is all the more urgent because other threats to
contemporary
humanity brought about by one-dimensional development of
civilization
are growing more serious all the time.
Many
believe this task can be accomplished through technical means. That is,
they
believe it can be accomplished through the intervention of new
organizational,
political, and diplomatic instruments. Yes, it is clearly
necessary
to invent organizational structures appropriate to the present
multicultural
age. But such efforts are doomed to failure if they do not grow
out of
something deeper, out of generally held values.
This,
too, is well known. And in searching for the most natural source for the
creation
of a new world order, we usually look to an area that is the
traditional
foundation of modern justice and a great achievement of the modern
age: to
a set of values that - among other things - were first declared in
this
building (Independence Hall). I am referring to respect for the unique
human
being and his or her liberties and inalienable rights and to the
principle
that all power derives from the people. I am, in short, referring to
the
fundamental ideas of modern democracy.
What I
am about to say may sound provocative, but I feel more and more
strongly
that even these ideas are not enough, that we must go farther and
deeper.
The point is that the solution they offer is still, as it were,
modern,
derived from the climate of the Enlightenment and from a view of man
and his
relation to the world that has been characteristic of the Euro-
American
sphere for the last two centuries. Today, however, we are in a
different
place and facing a different situation, one to which classical
modern
solutions in themselves do not give a satisfactory response. After all,
the
very principle of inalienable human rights, conferred on man by the
Creator,
grew out of the typically modern notion that man - as a being capable
of
knowing nature and the world - was the pinnacle of creation and lord of the
world,
This
modern anthropocentrism inevitably meant that He who allegedly endowed
man
with his inalienable rights began to disappear from the world: He was so
far
beyond the grasp of modern science that he was gradually pushed into a
sphere
of privacy of sorts, if not directly into a sphere of private fancy -
that
is, to a place where public obligations no longer apply. The existence of
a
higher authority than man himself simply began to get in the way of human
aspirations.
Two
Transcendent Ideas
The
idea of human rights and freedoms must be an integral part of any
meaningful
world order. Yet, I think it must be anchored in a different place,
and in
a different way, than has been the case so far. If it is to be more
than
just a slogan mocked by half the world, it cannot be expressed in the
language
of a departing era, and it must not be mere froth floating on the
subsiding
waters of faith in a purely scientific relationship to the
world.Paradoxically,
inspiration for the renewal of this lost integrity can
once
again be found in science, in a science that is new - let us say
postmodern
- a science producing ideas that in a certain sense allow it to
transcend
its own limits. I will give two examples:
The
first is the Anthropic Cosmological Principle. Its authors and adherents
have
pointed out that from the countless possible courses of its evolution the
universe
took the only one that enabled life to
emerge.
This is not yet proof that the aim of the universe has always been
that it
should one day see itself through our eyes. But adherents have pointed
out
that from t
I think
the Anthropic Cosmological Principle brings to us an idea perhaps as
old as
humanity itself: that we are not at all just an accidental anomaly, the
microscopic
caprice of a tine particle whirling in the endless depth of the
universe.
Instead, we are mysteriously connected to the entire universe, we
are
mirrored in it, just as the entire evolution of the universe is mirrored
in us.
Until
recently, it might have seemed that we were an unhappy bit of mildew on
a
heavenly body whirling in space among many that have no mildew on them at
all.
this was something that classical science could explain. Yet, the moment
it
begins to appear that we are deeply connected to the entire universe,
science
reaches the outer limits of its powers. Because it is founded on the
search
for universal laws, it cannot deal with singularity, that is, with
uniqueness.
The universe is a unique event and a unique story, and so far we
are the
unique point of that story. But unique events and stories are the
domain
of poetry, not science. With the formulation of the Anthropic
Cosmological
Principle, science has found itself on the border between formula
and
story, between science and myth. In that, however, science has
paradoxically
returned, in a roundabout way, to man, and offers him - in new
clothing
- his lost integrity. It does so by anchoring him once more in the
cosmos.
The
second example is the Gaia Hypothesis. This theory brings together proof
that
the dense network of mutual interactions between the organic and
inorganic
portions of the earth's surface form a single system, a kind of
mega-organism,
a living planet - Gaia - named after an ancient goddess who is
recognizable
as an archetype of the Earth Mother in perhaps all religions.
According
to the Gaia Hypothesis, we are parts of a greater whole. If we
endanger
her, she will dispense with us in the interest of a higher value -
that
is, life itself.
Toward
Self-Transcendence
What
makes the Anthropic Principle and the Gaia Hypothesis so inspiring? One
simple
thing: Both remind us, in modern language, of what we have long
suspected,
of what we have long projected into our forgotten myths and perhaps
what
has always lain dormant within us as archetypes. That is, the awareness
of our
being anchored in the earth and the universe, the awareness that we are
not
here alone nor for ourselves alone, but that we are an integral part of
higher,
mysterious entities against whom it is not advisable to blaspheme.
This
forgotten awareness is encoded in all religions. All cultures anticipate
it in
various forms. It is one of the things that form the basis of man's
understanding
of himself, of his place in the world, and ultimately of the
world
as such.A modern philosopher once said: "Only a God can save us now."
Yes,
the only real hope of people today is probably a renewal of our certainty
that we
are rooted in the earth and, at the same time, in the cosmos. This
awareness
endows us with the capacity for
self-transcendence.
Politicians at international forums may reiterate a
thousand
times that the basis of the new world order must be universal
respects
for human rights, but it will mean nothing as long as this imperative
does
not derive from the respect of the miracle of Being, the miracle of the
universe,
the miracle of nature, the miracle of our own existence. Only
someone
who submits to the authority of the universal order and of creation,
who
values the right to be a part of it and a participant in it, can genuinely
value
himself and his neighbors, and thus honor their rights as well.
It
logically follows that, in today's multicultural world, the truly reliable
path to
coexistence, to peaceful coexistence and creative cooperation, must
start
from what is at the root of all cultures and what lies infinitely deeper
in
human hearts and minds than political opinion, convictions, antipathies, or
sympathies
- it must be rooted in self-transcendence:
Transcendence as a hand reached out to those
close to us, to foreigners, to
the
human community, to all living creatures, to nature, to the universe.
Transcendence as a deeply and joyously
experienced need to be in harmony even
with
what we ourselves are not, what we do not understand, what seems distant
from us
in time and space, but with which we are nevertheless mysteriously
linked
because, together with us, all this constitutes a single world.
Transcendence as the only real alternative to
extinction.
The
Declaration of Independence states that the Creator gave man the right to
liberty.
It seems man can realize that liberty only if he does noto liberty.
It
seems man can realize that
About
the Author
Vaclav
Havel is the president of the Czech Republic. The speech was made in
Independence
Hall, Philadelphia, July 4, 1994.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:34:04 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
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Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
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>>
A few things.
>>
f) for those studying the beats, i have nothing against that - not my
>>
thing.
>
>or
not my thang -- the African for thing according to Tom Wolfe
>
>david
rhaesa
>at
the Beat-Hotel
>
what?
-Greg
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:38:31 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
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I would
love to hitchhike and I planned to start doing so last summer...
but
ended up, well as things always end up, never started and never
finished.
I
always wondered if there's still a lot of people out there picking up
hitchers,
it doesn't seem like there's a lot of people in our nation who
would
be willing to risk life and limb to get someone a ride.
Anyhow,
feel free to stop by Stillwater Minnesota (near st
paul/minneapolis)
if your hitching next summer.
-greg
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:40:11 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
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Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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>
><<
who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
>
>if
your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously
doubt
yours
>is,
what awaits is death.
>
>have
you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
>
>
>brian
>
that is
an increbile story... that's all there is to it, makes you
realize
that if wandering out and living an honest life is your thing,
it's
not impossible.
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:41:10 -0500
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From: Judith Campbell
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This
is a work in progress, should be
finished this week. Let me know
what
you think.
http://boondock.com/bookwoman/
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:48:52 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
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Subject: alexander supertramp
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Jon
Krackaurer (correct spelling?) wrote a book called "Into the Wild"
about
Alexander Supertramp. It is an excellent book, well researched
with
extensive interviews of the many people supertramp touched during
the two
years between "dissappearing" and "reappearing" dead in the
Alaskan
wilderness.
Krackaurer
is an expert mountain climber and outdoorsman, a writer for
Outside
magazine. You might know of his most recent expeditition, he was
one of
the few who survived the summit trip of Mt. Everest in which a
blizzard
killed several people. He wrote a book about it of course,
which I
have not read.
Anyway,
"Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
Alaskan
wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
is from
a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
brought
on by suburbia and corporate work.
He may
have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
up
simply by dying in the wilderness.
-Greg
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:42 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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In a
message dated 98-01-06 12:45:35 EST, you write:
<<
that is an increbile story... that's all there is to it, makes you
realize that if wandering out and living an
honest life is your thing,
it's not impossible. >>
perhaps
incredible to an extent, but also to make you realize that if not
impossible,
at least makes sure that you plan on doing with an intelligent
manner
at the same time.....by all my best intuitions, i fully realize if i
were to
attempt that right now, i'd probably wind up dying as well.......but
that's
just inexperience on top of everything else.....
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:53:53 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Susan L Dean
<deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: hitch-hiking
Content-Type:
text/plain
I
realize that this isn't _exactly_ the same as hitch-hiking, but given the
state
of the country today, it may be an acceptable alternative...
During
the summer of 96', a friend of mine bought an unlimited pass from
Greyhound
(I don't remember how much it cost) and spent the summer seeing the
country. He still had a great adventure and met lots
of interesting people, but
he just
didn't actually hitch rides from people.
The way I understand the pass
is that
you can go anywhere you want, anytime, until the pass expires.
I would
love to do it someday, but I agree with whoever said that its probably
more
dangerous for a young woman out there.
This is
my first post to the list...next time I'll try for something a little
more on
topic!
Susan
P.S. Julian-As far as cities in Michigan go, Port
Huron isn't so bad! I've
lived
in Michigan pretty much my whole life, and have seen far worse. If you
go to
college, you'll find more of the kind of people that you seek. Perhaps
even
some of the people that you know right now will become enlightened as they
mature
also.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:58:35 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <199801060802.DAA29006@ionline.net>
MIME-Version:
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I want
to speak out wholeheartedly in support of Mike's queries regarding
Wittgenstein
and Burroughs-- two major thinkers on language in our
century.
I can only assume that anyone that would dismiss this kind of
question
hasn't read any Burroughs, or doesn't care to think about what
they've
read. Burroughs was as much of a language theorist as anyone, and
his
ideas can be batted around with those who explored language in a
non-fictional
setting. I've only had a chance to read the first chapter of
"Wising
up the Marks" and this is exactly what's going on in that book.
Burroughs
has referred to himself as a pure scientist, risking his sanity
on
forays of investigative research into bizarre psychological,
linguistic,
and pharmacological realms. Sometimes in his more theoretical
passages,
it even reads like a textbook.
When
Sherri said:
"and
i agree that Burroughs whole take on language could be viewed as a
study
of semiotics."
she was
bang on. If you want to see Burroughs on semiotics, read "the book
of
breeething", a study in glyphic languages, sign systems, and Hassan I
Sabbah.
Or, I refer you to my post on Brion Gysin's work in "The
Exterminator":
"The
idea, as far as I can tell, is that Gysin rubs out the word by first
permutating
phrases so that they lose any singular meaning, becoming
merely
an arrangement yielding polysemous underpinnings when mixed; and
secondly
by a semiotic shift to typographic symbols, which shifts the
signifier/signified
relationship from letter-phonetic based
representations
with their aural basis to a purely visual sign. The word
is
finally rubbed out when words are lost to calligraphy without meaning,
writing
without communication, signifiers without a signified."
Sure,
affective fallacy is great, but its fun to use your brain sometimes
too.
And for
the person whose only exposure to serious thought about language
is
through an AOL chat room, maybe you would learn more about what you
despise
if you actually read a book. I suggest Wittgenstein or Derrida for
fun.
Neil
Double
Major - English Literature & Computer Science.
"Whenever
I bring up philosophy you always get a headache!"
"What
do you know about Wittgenstein or any of the greats?"
"He's
read the brown book once and thinks he knows philosophy."
The Toronto Research Group
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:08:27 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: New Orleans
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At
11:25 AM 1/6/98 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:
>If
whoever posted on this recently still has
>the
address or directions to the house, I'd appreciate
>it
if you would post them to be at the above
>address.
Hey
Bill,
According
to _Tribe_ magazine, the address is:
509 Wagner
St. in Algiers.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:27:31 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
In-Reply-To:
<199801061748.JAA06563@f135.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
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>Greg
Beaver-Seitz wrote
>Anyway,
"Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
>Alaskan
wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
>is
from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
>brought
on by suburbia and corporate work.
>He
may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
>up
simply by dying in the wilderness.
>
>-Greg
Interesting
comments Greg.
I just
read Krackaurer's book. However, as one who has spent a little time
in the
wilderness I must say that anyone who walks into an Alaskan
"wildernerss"
with a few books, a 22 rifle and 25 pounds of rice is asking
for
trouble. That Alex was an intelligent young man made his decision even
sadder.
I take
exception to your last comment
"... you CAN NOT screw up simply by
dying
in the wilderness." The only time you haven't screwed up if you die
in the
wilderness, is if you die of old age. Any death that could be
avoided
by living intelligently is a stupid way to die.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:50:03 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
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Subject: alexander supertramp
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Ok,
I'll take the bait... who exactly is Alexander Supertramp?
And while
I'm asking... Has anybody here heard of a poet named Karen Fish? Not
very
beat, but still an excellent excellent writer (who unfortunately is a
little
hard to find...the books I mean.)
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
In-Reply-To:
<199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
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At
07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
>
hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
>hitch-hikers
out there anymore?....
>
sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
>
please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
>system.
i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>summer,
and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
>real
lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
>"on
the road"
>-julian
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
Julian,
aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience
beyond
your years. You're about to start a
flame war with
your
provocative remarks. I'm looking
forward to it, it could
be a
doozy.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:01:45 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Florian Cramer
<cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: German
In-Reply-To: <6ddad5b8.34b26786@aol.com>
MIME-Version:
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On Tue,
6 Jan 1998, Kindlesan wrote:
> oh
most gracias to you, my newfound friend!!!!!!!!!! ;o)
>
>
the first one:
>
>
eingeweiht in der Liebe
>
aber erst hier-
>
als die Lava herabfuhr
>
und ihr Hauch uns traf
> am
Fuss des Berges,
>
als zuletzt der erschvpfte Krater
>
den Schl|ssel preisgab
>
f|r diese verschlossenen Kvrper-
initiated
into love
but
only here
when
lava came down
and its
breath (/breeze) touched us
at the
base of the mountain
when
the exhausted crater finally
divulged
the key
for
these locked (/sealed) bodies-
We
entered spellbound rooms
and
shed light on the darkness
with
our fingertips
>
>
Wir traten ein in verwunschene Ra|me
>
und leuchteten das Dunkelaus
>
mit den Fingerspitzen
>
>
>
another one....
>
>
Innen ist deine Hufte ein Landungssteg
>
f|r meine Schiffe, die heimkommen
>
von zu grossen Fahrten.
>
>
Das Gl|ck wirkt ein Silbertau,
> an
dem ich Defestigt liege.
>
Inside
your hip is a landing stage
for my
ships coming home
from
overly long journeys (/voyage).
Joy
(/fortune) weaves a silver rope,
to
which I am anchored.
>
another........
>
>
Innen ist dein Mund ein flaumiges Nest
>
f|r meine fl|gge werdende Zunge.
>
Innen ist dein Fleisch...
>
>
das ich mit meinen Trdnen wasche
>
und das mich einmal aufwiegen wird.
>
Inside
your mouth is a downy nest
for my
tongue becoming able to fly.
Inside
is your flesh....
that I
rinse with my tears
and
that will balance me out (/sustain me) some day.
>
fragment...
>
>
Innen sind deine Knochen helle Flvten,
>
aus denen ich Tvne zaubern kann,
>
die auch den Tod bestricken werden...
>
Inside
your bones are bright flutes
I can
conjure tunes out of,
which
will also charm death...
>
the last one
>
>
Ich bin noch schuldig. Heb mich auf.
>
Ich bin nicht schuldig. Heb mich auf.
>
>
Das Eiskorn lvs vom zugefrornen Aug,
>
brich mit den Blicken ein,
>
die blauen Grunde such,
>
schwimm, schau und tauch:
>
>
Ich bin es nicht.
>
Ich bin's.
I am
still guilty. Take me up.
I am
not guilty. Take me up.
Remove
the ice grain from my frozen eye,
break
in with your glance,
look
for the blue grounds,
swim,
look, and dive.
It's
not me
It's
me.
>
>
thank you very much for whatever you can translate.......very much appreciated
>
brian
As a
kraut, I bet this is no canonical literature, but some
lowbrow/vanity
press/highschool stuff. Acker once had a German
boyfriend,
maybe he or his circle of friends are connected to the
"source".
Florian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:12:05 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Florian Cramer
<cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Re: German
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.96.980106233129.12006C-100000@komma.fddi2.fu-berlin.de>
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On Wed,
7 Jan 1998, Florian Cramer wrote:
>
Inside your hip is a landing stage
Correction:
Your hip is a landing stage inside(!)
Florian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:22:09 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: pre-Beat, post-Beat, and Beat
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Hi,
I put
out DHARMA beat, A Jack Kerouac newsletter, and am looking for somebody
to do
an article on Post beat writers, who carry on the beat
tradition....whatever
that may mean. Are you interested in writing something?
The
article is pertinent now that the main triad has passed on. Let me know.
peace,
Attila
In a
message dated 97-05-23 08:36:05 EDT, you write:
<<
Another idea -- has this been discussed yet? -- is the post-Beats. Yeah we
can debate about whether or not the Beat
Generation ended when Kerouac
appeared on the Tonight Show or death of
Ginsberg or whatever, but out of
all the literary movements since (and what
are the big ones?), who out there
have been clearly influenced by the Beats?
For one, there seems to be a new
cyber-psychedelic movement of writers
emerging in this decade, with Howard
Rheingold, Terence McKenna and Douglas
Rushkoff being the first to come to mind, and
they seem to be directly next
in line with Tim Leary & Albert Hoffman,
decending down from the Whole Earth
60s, also heavily borrowing from Alan Watts
philosophies with a hefty dose
of (non-Beat) tech reporting a la Steven
Levy's _Hackers_ thrown in for good
measure.
What else post-Beat is going on, someone care
to tell me. I always thought
Bret Easton Ellis took the structure of _Visions
of Cody_ to heart when he
wrote _The Rules of Attraction_ (one of his
finest works). I wonder what
he'd say about that. >>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:22:36 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Content-Type:
text/plain
>At
07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
>>
hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
>>hitch-hikers
out there anymore?....
>>
sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
>>
please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
>>system.
i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>>summer,
and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
>>real
lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for
you
>>"on
the road"
>>-julian
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>Julian,
aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience
>beyond
your years. You're about to start a
flame war with
>your
provocative remarks. I'm looking forward
to it, it could
>be
a doozy.
>
>Mike
Rice
>
How is
what Julian said going to provoke a flame war???
-greg
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:22:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Kerouac's Birthday
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Hello:
Two
things,
Kerouac's
Birthday is coming up in March so you should start planning some
event
in your area, like a Kerouac reading, movie, lecture, appreciation, get
together.
second,
if you have a Kerouac event, or know about one, please let me know so
I could
include it in the calender I have on the web at
<A
HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/calender.html
">http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/calender.html</A>
and
also include it in DHARMA beat's next issue, due out in March.
Always
looking for people to write articles about Kerouac, his life, and his
writings.
thanks,
and enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:32:49 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-Type:
text/plain
>>Anyway,
"Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
>>Alaskan
wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
>>is
from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
>>brought
on by suburbia and corporate work.
>>He
may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
>>up
simply by dying in the wilderness.
>>
>>-Greg
>
>Interesting
comments Greg.
>
>I
just read Krackaurer's book. However, as one who has spent a little
time
>in
the wilderness I must say that anyone who walks into an Alaskan
>"wildernerss"
with a few books, a 22 rifle and 25 pounds of rice is
asking
>for
trouble. That Alex was an intelligent young man made his decision
even
>sadder.
>
>I
take exception to your last comment
"... you CAN NOT screw up simply
by
>dying
in the wilderness." The only time you haven't screwed up if you
die
>in
the wilderness, is if you die of old age. Any death that could be
>avoided
by living intelligently is a stupid way to die.
Differing
points of view. I agree that it would be better to die in the
wilderness
of old age than of poison berries but a friend of mine (who
has
also read the book) agreed that we think his way of dying was
admirable
if nothing else. Alex died because of his own mistakes, his
own
lack of ability. That is the best way to die. To be completely in
control
of whether you live or die is life, anything else... just isn't.
Maybe I
miswrote in my earlier post.. it was not a stupid way, it was a
mistake-filled,
inexperience caused way but not stupid. It was
definitely
an admirable way to live an and admirable way to die. I am
not
planning on going out and living in the wild until I eventually
screw
up and die so that I can die knowing that I brought it upon
myself.
But I will admire Supertramp for being in control of every
aspect
of his life and death.
I hope
I have made myself clear, I dont' really feel that I have.
-Greg
ps. In
response to the question about who Alexander Supertramp was I
dn't
feel I really can say.
A few
brief facts: he (I think)graduated from college a wealthy young
man. He
had $25000 in his checking account which he donated to charity.
His
parents called his phone number at school after not hearing anything
out of
him for a few weeks and discovered he hadn't been there for quite
a while.
They
heard nothing of him for two years until his body was found by an
abandoned
trailer in the middle of the Alaskan bush.
The
author essentially tracked down where Supertramp (the name he took
after
leaving school) had been those two years and discovered he had
affected
a lot of people in a lot of ways.
That's
all I really want to get into, a remarkable true story.
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:25:41 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type:
text/plain
to the person who spoke to me about exactly
caused me to end up "beyond
my
years"
i have lived basically homeless for 4 years,
and am only 18, i have
lived
with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way
house,
and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man
hitchhiking,
which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and
think...
until recently, i never had many friens, and
i liked it that way, i
just
read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then
go to
school....
also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
that is probably the most influential aspect
of my growth, in that, i
have
been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
numerous
times..
i may be generalizing when i say that my town
has a strong lack of
intelligence,
but that is generally all i have seen...
the wise and strong friends i have made here,
have gottenout...all but
me...i
have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of
highschool
for three weeks, something i had always said i would never
do.
i have "lived" more than many
people my age...
but here lies the happy ending...since coming
back to school, i have
someone
recieved reputation as the
"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
and have nearly built a following of a sort,
i practically give
lectures
at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my
feelings
on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a
little
giddy at all the attention i suppose...
anyway...
i have
lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people
have
had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn
more
about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not
call
myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...
i hope i answered the questions that were
posed to me...
-julian
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:34:41 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
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nancy, if that's the way you feel, ok, i can
understand that...
but...in this life, you only live for a
limited amount of years, and
this
may be something you want to try when you are young...if you dream
of
it...
with women, it isn't all that safe by
yourself, if i were a woman i
probably
wouldn't do it alone...
but as
i said, i want to go with the "buddy" system...
anyway, its up to you....
but nothing is going to happen to anyone i
travel with i simply
wouldn't
let it happen, i carry pepperspray at all times with me now,
and i
would suggest no less for you...
-julian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:37:21 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
Content-Type:
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>From
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>From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
>Organization:
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>Subject: alexander supertramp
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>In
a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
>
><<
who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
>
>if
your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously
doubt
yours
>is,
what awaits is death.
>
>have
you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
>
>
>brian
>
no
brian, i have never heard of alexander suprtramp...
this
isn't a lecture on "hitchhiking in today's society" is it?...
if
not...
who is
he?...
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:54 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: hitch-hiking
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>From
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>From: Susan L Dean
<deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
>Subject: hitch-hiking
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>I
realize that this isn't _exactly_ the same as hitch-hiking, but given
the
>state
of the country today, it may be an acceptable alternative...
>
>During
the summer of 96', a friend of mine bought an unlimited pass
from
>Greyhound
(I don't remember how much it cost) and spent the summer
seeing
the
>country. He still had a great adventure and met lots
of interesting
people,
but
>he
just didn't actually hitch rides from people.
The way I understand
the
pass
>is
that you can go anywhere you want, anytime, until the pass expires.
>
>I
would love to do it someday, but I agree with whoever said that its
probably
>more
dangerous for a young woman out there.
>
>This
is my first post to the list...next time I'll try for something a
little
>more
on topic!
>
>Susan
>
>P.S. Julian-As far as cities in Michigan go, Port
Huron isn't so bad!
I've
>lived
in Michigan pretty much my whole life, and have seen far worse.
If you
>go
to college, you'll find more of the kind of people that you seek.
Perhaps
>even
some of the people that you know right now will become enlightened
as they
>mature
also.
>
actually,
i said port huron as a land mark, i live in jeddo, which has a
population
of about 250, and the biggest news in years was when one guy
was a
distant relative timothy mcviegh
that
bus thing sounds like fun, but you don't get to know PEOPLE tht
way...i
spent some quality time with some really wonderful people...
playing
my guitar with them, or for them....
i'll
look into the bus thing though...it seems interesting...
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:56:16 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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>From
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>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:48:52 PST
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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>From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: alexander supertramp
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Jon
Krackaurer (correct spelling?) wrote a book called "Into the Wild"
>about
Alexander Supertramp. It is an excellent book, well researched
>with
extensive interviews of the many people supertramp touched during
>the
two years between "dissappearing" and "reappearing" dead in
the
>Alaskan
wilderness.
>Krackaurer
is an expert mountain climber and outdoorsman, a writer for
>Outside
magazine. You might know of his most recent expeditition, he
was
>one
of the few who survived the summit trip of Mt. Everest in which a
>blizzard
killed several people. He wrote a book about it of course,
>which
I have not read.
>
>Anyway,
"Into the Wild" is a great book and I don't think dying in the
>Alaskan
wilderness is a stupid way to die. I think a stupid way to die
>is
from a heart-attack at age forty because of twenty years of stress
>brought
on by suburbia and corporate work.
>He
may have screwed up living in the wilderness, but you CAN NOT screw
>up
simply by dying in the wilderness.
>
>-Greg
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
amen.
-julian
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:03:11 PST
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>From
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>Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:53:47 -0500
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>From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>In-Reply-To:
<199801061557.HAA03897@f82.hotmail.com>
>
>At
07:57 AM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
>>
hello again everyone, i was just wondering, are there any avid
>>hitch-hikers
out there anymore?....
>>
sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
>>
please reply if you are or are willing to try it using the "buddy"
>>system.
i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>>summer,
and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
>>real
lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for
you
>>"on
the road"
>>-julian
>>
>>______________________________________________________
>>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
>>
>Julian,
aren't you the 18 year old kid who has experience
>beyond
your years. You're about to start a
flame war with
>your
provocative remarks. I'm looking forward
to it, it could
>be
a doozy.
>
>Mike
Rice
>
thank
you mike for pointing that out to me, i hadn't realized that it
could
be taken that way....
anouncement:
I AM
NOT SOME SEX FIEND OR SOMETHING...I AM JUST LOOKING TO MEET PEOPLE,
HONESTLY,
I AM JUST A "STARRY-EYED" KID OUT TO SEE THE WORLD....
*g*
i hope
that cleared everything up...
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:52:43 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: hitch-hiking....
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Greg
Beaver-Seitz wrote:
>
> I
would love to hitchhike and I planned to start doing so last summer...
>
but ended up, well as things always end up, never started and never
>
finished.
> I
always wondered if there's still a lot of people out there picking up
>
hitchers, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of people in our nation who
>
would be willing to risk life and limb to get someone a ride.
>
Anyhow, feel free to stop by Stillwater Minnesota (near st
>
paul/minneapolis) if your hitching next summer.
>
>
-greg
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
i often
have provided transport in exchange for conversation to folks
along
the sides of the various routes zig-zagging here and there around
this
lovely nation. i must admit that since
the last thread in this
vein i
have, for some odd reason, had that moment of second-thought
concerning
safety that on an accelerating ramp on or off an Ike-route is
long
enough to pass by the lonesome traveler and i am then left the
lonesome
driver with no one but my active imagination with which to
convese.
david
rhaesa
at the
Beat Hotel in Lawrence
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:58:32 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: hakim bey
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Kindlesan
wrote:
>
>
has anyone ever read any poetry by a person named hakim bey?
>
>
brian
no i
haven't.
<yawn>
sorry i just woke up from a siesta
david
rhaesa
at the
Beat-Hotel
p.s. sorry for the chatter-banter ... my Ludwig
W. books are on the
shelf
in Salina and so I'm not up to following that thread yet.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:21:53 EST
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From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: hakim bey
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yea, of
coarse we have, can't remember there naymes, butt they we'reel
witty.....
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:37:46 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: This Land is your land
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some
interest on the list connects the beat thang with the legacy of
woody
guthrie and i've received backchannels concerning such threads
before. i thought i'd report that while perusing the
KMART children's
video
for presents for nieces and nephews i saw a copy of an animation
titled
This Land is Your Land introducing youngsters to the music of
Woody
G. I was happy to see that they
included "So Long It's Been Good
to Know
Ya" in the collection. Didn't get
it. Maybe next trip to a
KMART
(which might be awhile).
Right
now sitting in Patricia's basement.
Little Richard is FLAMING as
only LR
can do through a version of Rock Island Line and having walked
that
line before i can say this is the best version known to human
beings. Patricia is cataloguing material on Lena's
computer and I'm
typing
this note and Arlo is singing East Texas Red the meanest bull in
town.
Who can
say more about Woody and Leadbelly that ain't already been
written
or said by them or someone else here or in Tonganoxie. The
Vision
Shared tribute we're listening to was something or other to make
money
to buy the Moe Asch archives for the Smithsonian or someplace. A
good
cause.
I
remember my visit to New York City when i went looking around the
skyscraped
sky looking for Folkways Headquarters - i was obsessed to
death
with this old cat named Phil Ochs who hung himself on a bad day
for me
at least and i found the address and there weren't nothin' there
but a
box with numbers and buttons by the door.
I found one said
Folkways
and pushed the button...A woman's voice answers and says what
do i
want and i says i've come all the way from Kansas in search of Phil
Ochs
and she says they're normally mail order only but for a real Kansan
she can
make an exception and buzzes me in and up the Elevator. So I
buy
everything with any Ochs on it including the Interviews and the
collections
with Blind Boy Grunt and am about to head out the door --
and
there on the desk in front of this Caribbean Queen posing as a
secretary
is an issue of Sis Cunningham's little newsletter Broadside
and on
the cover is Phil Ochs. And i say well
would you look at that -
there's
Phil on the desk. And she says I can
have it. I said really
and she
said yes. I pick it up and on the other
side is the mailing
sticker
for Moe.
Moe
passed away as people do we're all just passing through this mist.
Now
EmmyLou is singing the Hobo's Lullaby.
And i'll let the words close
go to
sleep
you
weary hobo
let the
towns drift slowly by
can't
you hear the steel rails humming
that's
a
hobo's lullaby.....
bye bye
david
rhaesa
at the
Beat-Hotel
i'll
resubscribe in Salina soon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:40:48 EST
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i'm
from michigan i live by grand rapids
chad
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:15:05 -0500
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From: Susan L Dean
<deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: One last comment...
Content-Type:
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I
apologize for posting this to the list, but I don't have Julian's e-mail
address
to do it privately...
1) My friend who bought the bus pass actually
met lots of people. He would
spend
time in various towns and cities that appealed to him. (and may even
have
hitched short distances occasionally, I don't remember) And, he actually
met
people on the bus. I guess who you meet
all depends on what you make of
it.
2) Send me your e-mail address if you want, I
have a lot of things I'd like to
talk
with you about.
That's
it...I'll try to keep personal stuff off the list now!
Susan
deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:23:16 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: One last comment...
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Susan L
Dean wrote:
>
> I
apologize for posting this to the list, but I don't have Julian's e-mail
>
address to do it privately...
>
>
1) My friend who bought the bus pass
actually met lots of people. He would
>
spend time in various towns and cities that appealed to him. (and may even
>
have hitched short distances occasionally, I don't remember) And, he actually
>
met people on the bus. I guess who you
meet all depends on what you make of
>
it.
>
>
2) Send me your e-mail address if you
want, I have a lot of things I'd like
to
>
talk with you about.
>
>
That's it...I'll try to keep personal stuff off the list now!
>
>
Susan
>
deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
i had a
friend who did the bus pass deal sometime before or after
walking
the Appalachian Trail (where he's known as EZ rider) his name is
Robert
Thomas and he went to Emory University in Atlanta and as i recall
he
probably never graduated. but last i
saw him in Winston-Salem North
Carolina
he was still enjoying life ... i hear that the train passes
aren't
a bad summer buy either.
david
rhaesa
at the
Beat Hotel
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Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:28:45 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
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>i'm
from michigan i live by grand rapids
>
>
> chad
>
well,
tell me about yourself...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:29:23 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
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In a
message dated 98-01-06 21:07:51 EST, you write:
<<
no brian, i have never heard of alexander suprtramp...
this isn't a lecture on "hitchhiking in
today's society" is it?...
~~~nope........subtle
sarcasm.....meaning don't let idealism lead you to
disaster,
but judging by your last emails, i would presume you might have had
a good
share, perhaps of that, by now
if not...
who is he?...
~~~i
presume you have been reading all the posts on him by now.........
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:34:47 EST
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oh most
gracious benevolent florian, thank you.
thank
you. thank you.
now to
see if this helps me with the book.
brian
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:35:10 EST
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Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy - video and CD
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For a
catalog, thanks!:
George
Russell
PO Box
10667
Bainbridge
Island, WA 98110
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:50:09 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
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Subject: Re: hakim bey (Ludwig. W)
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At
08:58 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>p.s. sorry for the chatter-banter ... my Ludwig
W.
>books
are on the shelf in Salina and so I'm not up
>to
following that thread yet.
Looking
forward to the follow up David!! In the
midst
of
Augustine, Aquinas, and Luther for a Christian
Ethics
course at the moment and I could use the outside
entertainment.
. . Time permitting of course!! {;^>
Mike
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500
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At
09:37 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>So
I buy everything with any Ochs on it including
>the
Interviews and the collections with Blind Boy Grunt
>and
am about to head out the door --
Speaking
of Blind Boy Grunt, he was just nominated
for a
couple Grammy's (Album of the Year, Folk Album of
the
Year, and Best Rock Vocal - Male). At
least
I
believe this is what I heard. . .
Mike
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:12:23 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
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Subject: long list, warning
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I am
trying to sort out my basement stuff. and need motivation. so i am
posting
my very very rough draft list of some of the stuff. sorry if it
is too
long.
want
idea and feed back on how to make this list
patricia
Stuff
in the beat hotel basement.
Partial
list
Books
The
Wild Boys: A Book of the Dead, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to
Pat -
82) 2nd printing, Hardback with Dust jacket, copyright 1969.
(cover
slight tear)
Cities
of the Red Night, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to Pat - 83)
First
Edition excellent condition with dust jacket hard back
The
Place of Dead Roads, by William S. Burroughs, signed (to Pat - 84)
First
Edition, excellent condition with dust jacket. Hard back
Queer viking, 1985 ,signed to pat, dust jacket,
hard back
The Job
, Interviews with William S. Burroughs by Daniel Odier.Penquin,
paperback.,signed
by wsb, 96
excellant
condition
my
education (a book of dreams) hardback,
dust jacket, penquin, signed
by wsb
to pat. 91
The Cat
Inside, hardback, no dust , viking,
signed to pat, first
edition,
The
third Mind, william s. burroughs and brion gysin, signed to pat,
viking,hardback,
dust cover, excellent condition.
First
edition.
Letters
to allen ginsberg, full court press, paper back, excellent
condition. Signed
Early
Routines , small paperback, signed to pat. Excellent condition,
Cadmus
editions 1982
Ruski,
small paperback (signed, wsb 1984 (no 29 of 500 copies)
three,
- retreat diaries, two signed by wsb, allen, james, and david
ohle,
one signed by wsb, james and david,.
City moon 1976 (2,000 copies.
naked
lunch, paperback, torn, dirty, unsigned
The
Nova Broadcast #5: The Dead Star, by William S. Burroughs, signed
(to Pat
-85) printed 1969 - Nova Broadcast Press: San Francisco.
Nova
Convention progam, new york, nov, december. 1978
Everything
is permitted, the making of naked lunch, paperback,
Gallery
notices
Tony
Shafrazi gallery December 19 through
January 24 1988 - poster with
three
ply wood pictures and one of William at what I think is his front
porch
clean folded into 4.
Gasllery,
book, galerie carzaniga & ueker basel
Postcard
of Kellas gallery opening, sept nov 1989 (red painting)
Gallery
Casasinnombre William S. Burroughs
August 13 - September 24,
1988. Invitation to opening reception - postcard
of "The Meal Sickness"
1987.
Christmas
card -1988 picture of Untitled Window
6, signed (to Patricia)
Gallery
reception card, picture, Klien gallery 1988
Gallery
book, cover, the metal sickness, signed
to pat, casasinnombre
gallery 1988
Christmas
card , picture gluttony , 1992 signed
by william and james
Christmas
card, elf, signed by william 92,
pistol
target, from 2/17/85, signed by wsb
bardo
card, directions to williams bardo
Narcotics:
Nature's Dangerous Gifts, Revised edition of Norman Taylor's
Flight
from Reality. Gift to Pat from William.
Flowers
in the Blood: The Story of Opium, by Dean Latimer and Jeff
Goldberg
- Introduction by William S. Burroughs.
Signed by William.
Copyright
1981 Franklin Watts. Cover slightly
worn
River
City Reunion
river
city reunionplain poster signed by , william s burroughs, edie
keroauac,
diana di prima, micheal mclure, jay carrol, Jeff miller, gene
bernofsky,
roger martin, sharon dsteven l, tim miller, john giorno, ed
dorn,
ed ruhe, barbara hawkins, ,john moritz, peggy billings, mark
kaplan,
allen ginsberg, shelly miller,
danny bently, barry
shalinsky,
clark coan, rosemary leon kimball, b roberts, ken lasman,
barry
billings. Wayne propst, steve bunch, david ohle, david hann,
william
f. hatke, susan brasseau, steven lowe, george wedge, etc
River
City Reunion, Union Burning T-Shirt, Designed by BDR, XL, White
and
Clean
river
city reunion sclay wilson tee shirt, allen and william trucking
river
city reunion flyers
1, blue
poster for Husker du, liberty hall, river city reunion, sept.13
,87
1 pink
marianne Faithfull poster, with fernando Saunders. Michael
McClure,
Danny Sugerman, Thursday Sept. 10th.
1
robert Creelyey, James McCrary, David Ohle, Wayne Propst, leaonard
Macruder,
at the bottleneck, tues. sept 8.
1
flyer, yellow, timothy leary, Liberty hall sept, 12
1
flyer, ed sanders, jum carroll, ed dorn. Friday sept 11 liberty hall.
One large poster of "Howard Dewey, mule
driver from lecompton, by and
signed,
wayne s. propst. Jr.
(16
pages of proof of cat inside)
(one
large weatherman poster, "new
Morning - changing weather
2- color river city reunion posters, one
signed by wsb
Two
large color art posters of wsb "western lands"
Two
large color art poster of anne walden poem, "Romance,
One
large color art poster of philip whalen "window"
10
pamplets, by Frankie "Edie" Kerouac-Parker, "Essays & Poems
Celebrating
The 1987 River city Reunion
three
signed on front, six ` unsigned.
One signed inside,
white
plain, excellant condition
ljw
clipping, burroughs mug hawking sneakers 7/9/94
ljw,
clipping review of lee and the boys in the backroom by paul lim
large
framed poster from birthday party in newyork, 70 years, signed by
artiist
and william, a shadowy silluette, very
good.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:44:36 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
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Julian
Ruck wrote:
>
> hello again everyone, i was just wondering,
are there any avid
>
hitch-hikers out there anymore?....
> sometimes i feel like i'm the only one.
> please reply if you are or are willing to
try it using the "buddy"
>
system. i am planning a fulll three month hitch all over america this
>
summer, and am looking for someone to do it with, because it can get
>
real lonely not having anyone to talk to. who knows what awaits for you
>
"on the road"
>
-julian
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
i live
far away...but if you're willing to wait...
there
is a chance that i will be coming to the US in fall...hitchhiking
has
never been my strong side, though i tried. somehow it seems to me
that
people have changed and that the times are not as good as they used
to be.
what are your experiences?
ksenijs
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:25:54 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
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In a
message dated 98-01-06 20:36:01 EST, you write:
i have
lived basically homeless for 4 years,
~~~personal
choice or unavoidable situation?
done a
bit of one-man hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn
about
yourself and think...
~~~yeah,
so does being an introvert in high school with a predeliction(sp?)
for not
enjoying the company of too many people
i just
read a few books a week
~~~who
be your favorite authors?
also, i
am bisexual, and open about it...
~~~you
put up with a lot of shit concerning prejudice?
that is
probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i have
been
beaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened numerous
times..
~~~personal
choice or unavoidable
i even
dropped out of highschool for three weeks, something i had always said
i would
never do.
~~~why'd
you do it?
i have "lived" more than many
people my age...
~~~perhaps
this may be true for america
but
here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have someone
recieved reputation as the
"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-
take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
and have nearly built a following of a sort, i
practically
give lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen,
wondering
my feelings on certain subjects...
~~~what
makes this a happy ending for you?
i
suppose i could not call myself a "beat"....but who could at
first?...
~~~of
course, this depends on who you are talking to......i've heard some say
that
even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested by
some.....perhaps.......but
i am limited in my knowledge, not having read much
and
been there myself
brian
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:29:52 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
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Subject: Re: hiking
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Ksenija
Simic wrote:
>
>
there is a chance that i will be coming to the US in fall...hitchhiking
>
has never been my strong side, though i tried. somehow it seems to me
>
that people have changed and that the times are not as good as they used
> to
be. what are your experiences?
>
>
ksenijs
how
nice, i would be interested in your
itinery ideas. If you came
through
kansas, i would love to meet you. I
hitched hiked a lot for
years,
in us, mexico, and canada, i wos warned
most about mexico but
had the
evilest time in kansas city. and outside omaha. I loved hitch
hiking
and loved the geography the best. I
also rode a lot of buses and
found
it more people oriented somehow than hitching.
but hitching let
me bond
with geography more.
so
where do you think you want to go?
patricia
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:47:48 -0500
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: julian
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Julian,
I
apologize, you have lived beyond your years.
I live in a
city of
8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'
Main
Street, in Minnesota. The small town
bitterness that
passes
for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.
I've
risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict
in which
direction local opinion will move. As the owner-
manager
of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge
a lot
of bullets in my time. So I've grown
philosophical about
it. One good thing (that is also a bad thing)
about the bitterness,
is that
it is PERSONAL. Part of the big city
problem is that it
is
IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more
real,
as are the people you deal with.
One
last question, what's the name of your city and how big is
it?
Mike
Rice
At
05:25 PM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
> to
the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up "beyond
>my
years"
> i
have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have
>lived
with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way
>house,
and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man
>hitchhiking,
which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and
>think...
>
until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i
>just
read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then
>go
to school....
>
also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
>
that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i
>have
been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
>numerous
times..
> i
may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of
>intelligence,
but that is generally all i have seen...
>
the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but
>me...i
have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of
>highschool
for three weeks, something i had always said i would never
>do.
> i
have "lived" more than many people my age...
>
but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have
>someone
recieved reputation as the
>"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
>
and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give
>lectures
at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my
>feelings
on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a
>little
giddy at all the attention i suppose...
>
anyway...
>i
have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of people
>have
had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn
>more
about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not
>call
myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...
> i
hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...
>
-julian
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:58:38 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Christopher Johnson McCandless, aka
alexander supertramp
In-Reply-To:
<19980106233250.17913.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Christopher
Johnson McCandless (aka Alexander
Supertramp). From
Washington,
DC. Son of a NASA scientist, graduated from Emory University
May of
1990 where he had distinguished himself as a history and
anthropology
major carrying a 3.72 GPA. He declined membership on Phi Beta
Kappa.
His college education had been paid for with a $40,000 bequest that
had
been left him by a friend of the family. He had $24,000 left when he
finished
college. He donated it to OXFAM. The day after graduation,
Mother's
Day. He told his family he was going to disappear for a while and
they
never saw him again.
His
jouney into the "wilderness" began in Atlanta and ended 25 East of
Healy,
Alaska in an abandoned bus on what is called the Stampede Trail.
"Into
the Wild" weaves a haunting story of his last two years. The mistakes
McCandless
made caused his death. They were mistakes that are painful to
read
about. Excellent book.
INTO
THE WILD by Jon Krakaur, Villard, NY 1996 ISBN 0-679-42850-X. Book
beautifuly
designed by Deborah Kerner.
j grant
>-Greg
>
>ps.
In response to the question about who Alexander Supertramp was I
>dn't
feel I really can say.
>A
few brief facts: he (I think)graduated from college a wealthy young
>man.
He had $25000 in his checking account which he donated to charity.
>His
parents called his phone number at school after not hearing anything
>out
of him for a few weeks and discovered he hadn't been there for quite
>a
while.
>They
heard nothing of him for two years until his body was found by an
>abandoned
trailer in the middle of the Alaskan bush.
>The
author essentially tracked down where Supertramp (the name he took
>after
leaving school) had been those two years and discovered he had
>affected
a lot of people in a lot of ways.
>That's
all I really want to get into, a remarkable true story.
>
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:39:39 -0500
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From: mike rice
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Subject: Re: julian
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i've
heard some say
>that
even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested by
>some.....perhaps.......but
i am limited in my knowledge, not having read much
>and
been there myself
>
>brian
In the
history channel's interview (David Halberstam's The Fifties) and in
a long
extract on this list, I read
an
explanation of why the truly Beat, detested the Press' interpretation of
the
term "Beat." Ginsberg said
the word Beat meant you were part of the
real
beat, i.e., rhythm, of authentic
America. The Press suggested Beat
meant
beat up,
disgruntled,
raffish, offbeat, bohemian, even sinister.
Since those guys
hanging
around Columbia University in the 40s were totally in charge of what
Beat
really means, they had to take umbrage at the Press interpretation. Then
Chronicle
columnist Herb Caen comes along in 1957 when both Howl and On The
Road
are exploding, and lifts the "nik" off the then brand-new Russian
Sputnik,
appends the suffix to Beat, and presto, we have a new creation:
"The
Beatnik." Some of the
bad
films, pulp paperbacks, and Television impressions of the Beatniks, seem
laughable
today, but those impressions created the backlash that knocked the
Beat
movement on its can, by 1960. By the early 60s, the only mainstream
memory
of the
Beat movement, was represented by Maynard Krebs, the goateed fool who
played
foil to Dobie Gillis on The Loves of Dobie Gillis TV show.
The
Press and establishment wanted desperately to snuff the voice
of the
Beats. They succeeded, at first, but
that authentic beat and rhythm
surfaced
again in the mid-60s, and sparked a cultural revolution that is
still
with us. That is why Allan Ginberg's
obituary started on page
1 of the
New York Times, and why George Will's, will not start there.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:48:38 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: julian
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you
asked who i was, i'm from michigan also, and after reading yr post about
you, it
sounds like we'd have alot in common. so i tried to write you a
private
email but my mail was sent back saying i couldn't write to you, umm
how can
i?, i think the story of me isn't as interesting as kerouac to some
people
on this list, god knows why :) so i
decided not to post it. sorry
have a
nice night and a happy halloween
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:48:17 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
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>
>
>
>Mike Rice
>
>
>
thank you mike for pointing that out to me, i hadn't realized that it
>
could be taken that way....
>
anouncement:
> I
AM NOT SOME SEX FIEND OR SOMETHING...I AM JUST LOOKING TO MEET PEOPLE,
>
HONESTLY, I AM JUST A "STARRY-EYED" KID OUT TO SEE THE WORLD....
>
>
*g*
>
> i
hope that cleared everything up...
>
isn't
is sad how people these days always see the negative first in
things
others say or do; how we don't trust each other anymore?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:44:07 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: julian
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> i hope i answered the questions that were
posed to me...
> -julian
>
>
______________________________________________________
i
admire you. that's all i want to say. and why not call yourself beat?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:00:35 MST
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From: James Lavin
<jimlavin@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Alexander Supertramp
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I have
belonged to the list for a while, but never have added anything,
as I
lack the Beat knowledge base. I wanted to point out something
that
people may have missed in their observations of Chris McCandless.
He died
of starvation, due mainly to eating the seed pods of a plant
that
was listed as edible in his guide book.
This inhibited the
production
of an enzyme necessary for the break down and utilization of
food. It wasn't so much that Chris didn't know the
woods, he was in
such a
depleted state that he simply died with several days. Other such
claims
have ben made in attempts to prove his lack of knowledge. He
describes
killing a moose in his journal. The
hunters who accompanied
Jon
Krakauer to the site pointed out the fact that he must have been a
fool to
mistake a caribou for a moose. In fact
the veteran Alaskan
hunters
had mistaken the remains for a caribou, closer examination
proved
the bones to be from a moose. It is my opinion that Chris
McCandless
set out with the purest of intentions, making strong effort
to live
by his beliefs. He was an accomplished
outdoors person who
happened
to overestimate his own abilities. That
wasn't what was
ultimately
responsible for his death. Instead a
string of bad luck
cause
his demise.
Peace, Jimi
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:00:46 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: hiking
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>
>
how nice, i would be interested in your
itinery ideas. If you came
>
through kansas, i would love to meet you.
I hitched hiked a lot for
>
years, in us, mexico, and canada, i wos
warned most about mexico but
>
had the evilest time in kansas city. and outside omaha. I loved hitch
>
hiking and loved the geography the best.
I also rode a lot of buses and
>
found it more people oriented somehow than hitching. but hitching let
> me
bond with geography more.
> so
where do you think you want to go?
>
patricia
i have
learnt that there is beauty everywhere you go; as long as you
travel;
as long as you are not in one place.
of
course, as every typical tourist, i want to see the grand canyon, as
i have
managed to miss it in all my visits to the US. i want to go
through
arizona, new mexico, the desert...everywhere...
and i
would love to visit you along the way. after all, much of the
traveling
is about people you meet.
what
was it about kansas city?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:46:24 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: on the road again
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waking
up with sinus headache
just a
bit
kinda
fuzzy feeling in my brain
gotta
pack my things
in a
flash and hit the highway
heading
west past Topeka and
Fort
Riley
to the
jewell of the Plains
Salina
...
listening
to Ken Kesey singing
Belle
Starr and Jesse James
on the
ride.
life i
love is making it with my muse
i
cain't wait ta get out there
on the
horse again....
david
rhaesa
leaving
the Beat-Hotel
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:55 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: on the road again
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
waking up with sinus headache
>
just a bit
>
kinda fuzzy feeling in my brain
>
gotta pack my things
> in
a flash and hit the highway
>
heading west past Topeka and
>
Fort Riley
> to
the jewell of the Plains
>
Salina
>
...
>
listening to Ken Kesey singing
>
Belle Starr and Jesse James
> on
the ride.
>
life i love is making it with my muse
> i
cain't wait ta get out there
> on
the horse again....
>
>
david rhaesa
>
leaving the Beat-Hotel
hit the
road jack
and
don't come back
no more
no more no more no more
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:27:33 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: When trees are outlawed...
Was
Sony Bono beat?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:40:36 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Johan Gotthardt Olsen
<johan@DARWIN.KI.KU.DK>
Subject: photo wanted
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I know
of a photograph of Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady standing
together,
Cassady to the left, head kinked in a funny way, Kerouac to
the
right, serene (ironic, impatient?). I saw it used as a 'On The
Road'
cover, can't remember the publishing co. but... I'd like to have
the
picture so if somebody out there can help, I'd very much
appreciate
it. I think the picture was taken by Cassady's wife?
It's
cold, grey, windy, wet, hopeless here in Denmark. Somebody do
something,
I am losing it!
Johan
johan@xray.ki.ku.dk
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:15:57 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail
In-Reply-To:
<19980107013441.17458.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Hopefully,
I'll be taking off for Prague in a couple of years and then,
I'll be
able to hit the road in Europe for a little while, anyway.
On Tue,
6 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> nancy, if that's the way you feel, ok, i can
understand that...
> but...in this life, you only live for a
limited amount of years, and
>
this may be something you want to try when you are young...if you dream
> of
it...
> with women, it isn't all that safe by
yourself, if i were a woman i
>
probably wouldn't do it alone...
> but
as i said, i want to go with the "buddy" system...
> anyway, its up to you....
> but nothing is going to happen to anyone i
travel with i simply
>
wouldn't let it happen, i carry pepperspray at all times with me now,
>
and i would suggest no less for you...
> -julian
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:19:57 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: julian
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.5.16.19980107004249.19df472e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
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I beg
to differ on one point, the big city is not always impersonal. NYC
is more
personal to me than the suburb where I grew up, in upstate NY.
On Wed,
7 Jan 1998, mike rice wrote:
>
Julian,
>
> I
apologize, you have lived beyond your years.
I live in a
>
city of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'
>
Main Street, in Minnesota. The small
town bitterness that
>
passes for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.
>
I've risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict
> in
which direction local opinion will
move. As the owner-
>
manager of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge
> a
lot of bullets in my time. So I've
grown philosophical about
>
it. One good thing (that is also a bad
thing) about the bitterness,
> is
that it is PERSONAL. Part of the big
city problem is that it
> is
IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more
>
real, as are the people you deal with.
>
>
One last question, what's the name of your city and how big is
>
it?
>
>
Mike Rice
>
>
> At
05:25 PM 1/6/98 PST, you wrote:
>
> to the person who spoke to me about exactly caused me to end up
"beyond
>
>my years"
>
> i have lived basically homeless for 4 years, and am only 18, i have
>
>lived with two teachers, a lover, three wiccan friends, in a half-way
>
>house, and anywhere else you can imagine, of done abit of one-man
>
>hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to learn about yourself and
>
>think...
>
> until recently, i never had many friens, and i liked it that way, i
>
>just read a few books a week, staying up to see the sun-rise, and then
>
>go to school....
>
> also, i am bisexual, and open about it...
>
> that is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i
>
>have been geaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
>
>numerous times..
>
> i may be generalizing when i say that my town has a strong lack of
>
>intelligence, but that is generally all i have seen...
>
> the wise and strong friends i have made here, have gottenout...all but
>
>me...i have to suffer one more year here, i even dropped out of
>
>highschool for three weeks, something i had always said i would never
>
>do.
>
> i have "lived" more than many people my age...
>
> but here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have
>
>someone recieved reputation as the
>
>"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
>
> and have nearly built a following of a sort, i practically give
>
>lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to listen, wondering my
>
>feelings on certain subjects...it can get nerve racking, but i'm a
>
>little giddy at all the attention i suppose...
>
> anyway...
>
>i have lived a "hard-knock-life"...i am well aware that a lot of
people
>
>have had it worse, but one of the reasons i joined this list is to learn
>
>more about this interesting and wonderful culture, i suppose i could not
>
>call myself a "beat"....but who could at first?...
>
> i hope i answered the questions that were posed to me...
>
> -julian
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:38:29 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type:
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>From
owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Jan 6
22:27:18 1998
>Received:
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>Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:25:54 EST
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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>From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
>Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Re: julian
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>In
a message dated 98-01-06 20:36:01 EST, you write:
>
>i
have lived basically homeless for 4 years,
>~~~personal
choice or unavoidable situation?
>(unavoidable,
when you cease to entertain people, they cease to want
you
around)
>done
a bit of one-man hitchhiking, which gives you a lot of time to
learn
>about
yourself and think...
>~~~yeah,
so does being an introvert in high school with a
predeliction(sp?)
>for
not enjoying the company of too many people
>(i
was that for years too)
>i
just read a few books a week
>~~~who
be your favorite authors?
>(Vonnegut,
Rand, Chaucer, Plato(all the Greeks really), Adams, Eddings,
and
Salinger)
>also,
i am bisexual, and open about it...
>~~~you
put up with a lot of shit concerning prejudice?
>(yes,
a lot)
>that
is probably the most influential aspect of my growth, in that, i
have
>been
beaten up many times, hospitalized, and had my life threatened
numerous
>times..
>~~~personal
choice or unavoidable
>(unavoidable,
this town has so very many prejudices)
>i
even dropped out of highschool for three weeks, something i had
always
said
>i
would never do.
>~~~why'd
you do it?
>(i
had no place to live at all, and needed a 40 hour a week job, and
then i
couldn't juggle school and living on my own....so i had to let
school
go, its not something i'm proud of)
> i have "lived" more than many
people my age...
>~~~perhaps
this may be true for america
>
>but
here lies the happy ending...since coming back to school, i have
someone
>recieved reputation as the
"off-road-hipster-buddhist-philosopher-poet-don't-
>take-me-home-to-mommy-guy"
and have nearly built a following of a sort,
i
>practically
give lectures at lunch to groups of people who stop to
listen,
>wondering
my feelings on certain subjects...
>~~~what
makes this a happy ending for you?
>(respect.
that simple, i have only been assualted once since coming
back,
and now he has absolutely no friends because of it, for being
bullied
for years, it feels good to be "safe")
>i
suppose i could not call myself a "beat"....but who could at
first?...
>~~~of
course, this depends on who you are talking to......i've heard
some
say
>that
even within the beat movement, the word "beat" itself was detested
by
>some.....perhaps.......but
i am limited in my knowledge, not having
read
much
>and
been there myself
>
>brian
>
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:41:46 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type:
text/plain
actually,
a place called Jeddo, a country off-shoot of port huron...
michigan,
with a population in jeddo of about 250
>From
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22:47:40 1998
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>Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:47:48 -0500
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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>From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
>Subject: Re: julian
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>In-Reply-To:
<19980107012541.16234.qmail@hotmail.com>
>
>Julian,
>
>I
apologize, you have lived beyond your years.
I live in a
>city
of 8,000, in Wisconsin, not far from Sinclair Lewis'
>Main
Street, in Minnesota. The small town
bitterness that
>passes
for public opinion here, is often impossible to bear.
>I've
risen above it by understanding, and learning to predict
>in
which direction local opinion will
move. As the owner-
>manager
of the local cable Television system, I've had to dodge
>a
lot of bullets in my time. So I've
grown philosophical about
>it. One good thing (that is also a bad thing)
about the bitterness,
>is
that it is PERSONAL. Part of the big
city problem is that it
>is
IMPERSONAL. It hurts worse when it is personal, but its more
>real,
as are the people you deal with.
>
>One
last question, what's the name of your city and how big is
>it?
>
>Mike
Rice
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:46:11 PST
Reply-To:
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: julian
Content-Type:
text/plain
because i'm new to it...
i don't really understand it as well, as
someone who has been with it
awhile
would....
and i wouldn't want to use it refering to
myself if some people would
take
offence at an "upstart hippy"
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 05:48:50 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: When trees are outlawed...
Content-Type:
text/plain
at one
time, i think he was...but he was a lot of things...a hippy, and
a
republican...
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:57:57 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: letter par Truly Beat Canucks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980104221947.49525B-100000@uoft02.utoledo.e
du>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Le
siecle des intellectuels says:
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
the
DiGiTaL CiTiZen carnet on wired i
couldnt
resist to Jaques Derrida... o
r
emigrates or johnny halliday or Son
ny Bono
or Salvatore (or Sal) the mis
tic
name Salvatore Bono (italian emig
rant,
at Ellis Islands, or Elvis Isla
nd?) NY
or THE BEAT GOES ON 1967, dis
c or
Palm Springs there's jack keroua
c or
philp marlowe i couldnt resist t
o
Jacques Derrida...and the beats go
on...il
cammino di ogni speranza is t
he beat
goes on sonny... ma piano (pe
r non
svegliarti)... jacques derrida.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:38:10 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: When trees are outlawed...
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Jan 1998 07:27:33 EST from
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Well,
he sang "The Beat goes on...on...on...on...on."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:47:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: This Land is your land
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500
from <cake@IONLINE.NET>
On Wed,
7 Jan 1998 00:54:41 -0500 M. Cakebread said:
>At
09:37 PM 1/6/98 -0600, David Rhaesa wrote:
>
>>So
I buy everything with any Ochs on it including
>>the
Interviews and the collections with Blind Boy Grunt
>>and
am about to head out the door --
>
>Speaking
of Blind Boy Grunt, he was just nominated
>for
a couple Grammy's (Album of the Year, Folk Album of
>the
Year, and Best Rock Vocal - Male). At
least
>I
believe this is what I heard. . .
>
>Mike
Yes,
and I'll be really suprised if Dylan doesn't win. It's a GREAT
album. The Phil Ochs box set is good too, though
there's only about five unrec
orded
songs in it. At $43, it's an expensive
purchase for someone who has all
the albums.
For someone new to Ochs, however, it's a great introduction. The
re's
also a good biographical pamphlet.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:54:10 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Has
anyone out there read a work by Wittgenstein cover to cover?
-John
H.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:26:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Dylan Conference at Stanford
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thought
someone in the Bay area might be
interested
in checking this out:
>
stanford, california--
>
'scholars are planning a one-day conference at standford univeristy
>to
talk about bob dylan's legacy in american culture. authors,
>professors
and dylan experts will attent the event, which is billed as
>the
first of its kind in the u.s. the
legendary folk songwriter is
>scheduled
to perform in new york with van morrison on that day and is
>not
expected to attend. among the topics
will be an analysis of
>political
views in dylan's songs, allen ginsberg's artistic
>involvement
with dylan, the musical roots of dylan's songs and a
>comparison
to beat novelist jack kerouac and french poet arthur
>rimbaud.'
>
--canoe.ca/JanMusic/jan7_dylan.html
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:33:11 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: mail go bouncy list
Comments:
cc: nhenness@uwaterloo.ca
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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7bit
I
probably will sell some, but the thang is , i am trying to figure out
what
stuff i have. I have contacted a library to donate 5 years
worth
of underground papers i collected in the 70's.
My preservation
technique
is to randomly pile material in stacks on my
basement
floor. I am cleaning, and sorting, and
don't know how to
catalogue. When Charles Plymell was here, he gave me a
good talking to
about
the way i kept stuff. So I am sorting, listing. I also thought I
might
try to get the more interesting posters and cards scanned for use
on my
crude home page. I just get a little lost with my collections. I
also
contacted a book dealer and will be selling a couple of hundred of
my
lesser cook books. But i keep wanting to quit sorting and to go to
the
computer to play freecell. I thought if
i posted the partial list
someone
would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the
stuff
off the floor.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:11:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: letter par Truly Beat Canucks
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19980107145757.006a1104@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
02:57 PM 1/7/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Le
siecle des intellectuels says:
>> Cronopio, cronopio?
>>
>the
DiGiTaL CiTiZen carnet on wired i
>couldnt
resist to Jaques Derrida... o
>r
emigrates or johnny halliday or Son
>ny
Bono or Salvatore (or Sal) the mis
>tic
name Salvatore Bono (italian emig
>rant,
at Ellis Islands, or Elvis Isla
>nd?)
NY or THE BEAT GOES ON 1967, dis
>c
or Palm Springs there's jack keroua
>c
or philp marlowe i couldnt resist t
>o
Jacques Derrida...and the beats go
>on...il
cammino di ogni speranza is t
>he
beat goes on sonny... ma piano (pe
>r
non svegliarti)... jacques derrida.
>
>
this is
great, now if we could all communicate
this
well, Sonny might have been elected President
by now
instead of just mayor and congressman.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:32:30 -0500
Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "D. Patrick Hornberger"
<"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>
Organization:
EASTWIND PUBLISHING
Subject: Re: mail go bouncy list
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
> I
probably will sell some, but the thang is , i am trying to figure out
>
what stuff i have. I have contacted a library to donate 5 years
>
worth of underground papers i collected in the 70's. My preservation
>
technique is to randomly pile material in stacks on my
>
basement floor. I am cleaning, and
sorting, and don't know how to
>
catalogue. When Charles Plymell was
here, he gave me a good talking to
>
about the way i kept stuff. So I am sorting, listing. I also thought I
>
might try to get the more interesting posters and cards scanned for use
> on
my crude home page. I just get a little lost with my collections. I
>
also contacted a book dealer and will be selling a couple of hundred of
> my
lesser cook books. But i keep wanting to quit sorting and to go to
>
the computer to play freecell. I
thought if i posted the partial list
>
someone would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the
>
stuff off the floor.
>
patricia
Cool
Collection--
I have
to say you should continue to collect and not donate--yet... One
never
can tell what the value of Beat stuff really is. Market could
totaly
bomb--or get better, if the current interest continues. e.g. I 'm
a
collector and have seen OTR, 1st editons go from $700.00 to
1,800--same
condition at book shows in the Washington,DC area. I dont
think
it will ever drop much for the big
three, but none of the
so-called
experts put much faith in the minor charcters. And the secure
market
is mostly in books, not the ephemeral.
Myself--if
you want to sell it -I might be interested in the target
signed
by WSB--I'm still working on why he was so fascinated by
handguns,
(but never used as a poster boy for the NRA). let me know if
you
want to sell it and how much.
Patrick
eastwind@erols.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:28:34 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Be There or Be Square (Marie Countryman
Reading)
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Those
who may have missed previous posts should know that Marie
Countryman
of Beat-L fame will be reading from her poetry at
Polk
Street Beans & Cafe
1733
Polk Street, San Francisco
415-776-9292
Show
starts at 7pm
Be
There or Be Square
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:32:07 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Be There Part II
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I
should have added that the reading is 7pm THURSDAY, JANUARY 8
See you
there
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:57:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Alexander Supertramp
In-Reply-To:
<19980107090036.2278.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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James
Lavin wrote about Chris McCandless:
> He
was an accomplished outdoors person who
>happened
to overestimate his own abilities. That
wasn't what was
>ultimately
responsible for his death. Instead a
string of bad luck
>cause
his demise.
> Peace, Jimi
Jimi,
When
McCandless became so weak he couldn't forage for food he tried to
return
but could not cross a bever pond andthen the river that was running
much
higher than it was when he first arrived.
Had he
not torn up and thrown his maps away he would have seen --marked on
the
map--a means to cross. Just six miles away was a steel cable and bucket
that
was tied up on his side of the river.
A
simple rash act. Krakauer speculated that since there was no real
wilderness
where he was, he created a "wilderness" by destroying the map
that
showed civilization still crowding in on him.
No
books listed the seed pods (of the potato plant he was eating) as toxic
so it
was assumed that he had mistakenly eaten seed pods from the wild
sweet
pea which closely resembles the wild potato. Krakauer, after much
thought,
decided McCandless would not have made this kind of a mistake and
I
agree. Krakauer's research showed that the wild potatoe produces an
alkoloid
that concentrates in the seed pods in late summer to discourage
animals
from eating the seeds. The alkolid, it was learned, is swainsonine
which
is the compound known to veterinarians as the toxic agent in
locoweed.
This poison affects a person neurologically and inhibits an
enzyme
essential to glycoprotein metabolism. Krakauer points out that
animals
that stop eating it can recover, IF they are in robust condition to
begin
with. McCandless was not.
Old-timers
were surprised to learn that he had, indeed, shot a moose, and
not a
caribou. Unfortunately he had never read any materail on how to cure
and
store the meat. He had the means and the time to slice the meat into
thin
strips and cure it using the heat and smoke of a simple campfire.
Sad
that this gifted, intelligent, articulate, hardworking, very likable
young
man, as a result of a couple of rash acts, died while so close to
help.
Indications that he was preparing to return to the life he had left
behind
two years earlier makes the story even sadder.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:08:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: When trees are outlawed...
In-Reply-To: <009BFEC6.2EEE4AA0.13@kenyon.edu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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>Was
Sony Bono beat?
Of
course we can't forget those best selling LPs:
Sonny
and Cher Sing Woody's Dust Bowl Ditties,
and
Sonny
and Cher Love Bobby Dylan
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:13:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: mail go bouncy list
In-Reply-To: <34B3A037.1D86@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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I thought if i posted the partial list
>someone
would scold or imspire me to keep going until i at least got the
>stuff
off the floor.
>patricia
Quite a
list.
Consider
yourself scolded (and hopefuly inspired).
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:09:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page updated!
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yes I
have updated it again for the New Year...also, look in the future for
all new
pages and links! Thanks for 1997, the year of the founding of The
Kerouac
Quarterly!
Guess what Kerouac did 50 years ago today!
Go to the page and find out.... at:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Bye for now and stay
away from ski slopes with trees!
Paul...
>
>
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:14:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: photo wanted
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
i think
i have the copy of on the road with that picture. the publisher of
mine is
city lights. however, i have also seen a copy out by penguin with the
same or
similar picture.
aeronwy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:27:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: For Boston-area Beats!
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If
you're in the Boston Area tonight, broadcasting from Boston University,
(WBOR at 90.9 FM) there is an hour-long interview
with David Amram and John
Suiter
about Jack Kerouac. Check it out if you can! The Kerouac Quarterly
will
highlight parts of the interview on the web page in the near future.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Take care,
Paul of TKQ....
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:28:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: photo wanted
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry!Forgot
to give the time..try around 8:00 PM or 9:00 PM...sorry again.
WBOR 90.9 FM in Boston-area...
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:44:25 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Alexander Supertramp
Content-Type:
text/plain
I
really feel that the discussion of alexander supertramp has taken a
turn
for the worst.. All that we have talked about is how he screwed up
(or did
not screw up) the end of his life.
We
should be discussing the incredible amount of life he lived and
people
he affected, not the fact that yes.. he is dead.
What
about the 70 year old man in Nevada or something who was living a
happy
life of retirement until he met supertramp. At the time,
supertramp
was living outside of a commune type situation in the desert.
He left
on his trek to Alaska, died.. The 70 year old man is now living
in the
desert, near where Supertramp had his tent.
That is
one of only a few ways in which he impacted a dozen people in
the
course of two years.
Read
the book, understand the incredible things he did and not the
tragic
way he died...
-Greg
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:25:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Coming soon to TKQ...
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Coming
soon, the first of many new additions to the quarterly and web
page...the
real time Kerouac Quarterly chat group. Stay tuned for further
info.
P.
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:46:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Let's get this New Year rolling...
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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7bit
Ever answered
the Proust Questions? Well, here they is:
1. What
is your most marked characteristic?
2. What
do you consider your greatest achievement?
3. When
and where were you happiest?
4. What
is your greatest regret?
5. What
is your idea of perfect happiness?
6. What
is your most treasured possession?
7.
Where would you like to live?
8. What
is your greatest fear?
9. What
is the trait you most deplore in yourself?
10.
What is the trait you most deplore in others?
11.
What do you consider the most overrated virtue?
12.
What is your greatest extravagance?
13.
What is your favourite journey?
14.
What is it that you most dislike?
15.
What is the quality you most like in a man?
16.
What is the quality you most like in a woman?
17.
What do you most value in your friends?
18. If
you were to come back as a person or thing, what do you think it would
be?
19. If
you could choose what to come back as, what would it be?
20. How
would you like to die?
BTW,
does anyone know if JK ever answered these 20 questions? It seems likely
that he
would have. I would love to hear his answers. And in a few days, I'll
post
Proust's answers here, if you wish. There are two versions I know of,
answered
first when he was 13, and second when he was 20.
I hope this
generates some interesting results and threads.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:07:11 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Let's get this New Year rolling...
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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Homework
Already?
Do we
have any of Marcel's answers from a somewhat riper age than 13 or 20?
Not
enough mail in your mailbox with the scintillating Alexander Supertramp
thread
that has us all so rivited?
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:02:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Let's get this New Year rolling...
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
06:46 PM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote:
>Ever
answered the Proust Questions? Well, here they is:
>
>1.
What is your most marked characteristic?
Perseverance...
>2.
What do you consider your greatest achievement?
To
date...the Kerouac Quarterly
>3.
When and where were you happiest?
the
womb
>4.
What is your greatest regret?
Not
living after my death in which I will know my greatest regret
>5.
What is your idea of perfect happiness?
You
will never attain this, even the most peaked form of happiness is marred
by
misery.
>6.
What is your most treasured possession?
The
Complete Beethoven edition
>7.
Where would you like to live?
In New
England where I'm standing , about 200 years ago.
>8.
What is your greatest fear?
I'm
afraid I don't know.
>9.
What is the trait you most deplore in yourself?
That
which makes me human, weakness.
>10.
What is the trait you most deplore in others?
Their
tendencies to be humans.
>11.
What do you consider the most overrated virtue?
Fidelity,
it mars the way to follow the advice of your spirit.
>12.
What is your greatest extravagance?
U Know
>13.
What is your favourite journey?
Its not
life...
>14.
What is it that you most dislike?
It's
not life...
>15.
What is the quality you most like in a man?
He's a
dumb ape.
>16.
What is the quality you most like in a woman?
She's a
loving ape.
>17.
What do you most value in your friends?
Friendship.
>18.
If you were to come back as a person or thing, what do you think it would
>be?
Van
Gogh's severed earlobe.
>19.
If you could choose what to come back as, what would it be?
The
right hand of Vermeer of Delft as he paints the Lacemaker....
>20.
How would you like to die?
After
life...
>
>BTW,
does anyone know if JK ever answered these 20 questions? It seems likely
>that
he would have. I would love to hear his answers. And in a few days, I'll
>post
Proust's answers here, if you wish. There are two versions I know of,
>answered
first when he was 13, and second when he was 20.
>
>I
hope this generates some interesting results and threads.
>
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:38:02 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: alexander supertramp
>In
a message dated 98-01-06 11:01:38 EST, you write:
>
><<
who knows what awaits for you "on the road" >>
>
>if
your name happens to be alexander supertramp, which i seriously doubt yours
>is,
what awaits is death.
>
>have
you ever heard that story of the emory college graduate?
>
>
>brian
No, but
now i'm intrigued....
Diane.
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:28:01 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs, Wittgenstein
In-Reply-To: <34B342B2.330D@tezcat.com>
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On Wed,
7 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
Has anyone out there read a work by Wittgenstein cover to cover?
I have,
but I'm not sure it really matters all that much with
Wittgenstein.
One must not have too much faith in cardboard.
(&
BTW, there's still a lot of W's writings not yet published....yet
another
"estate" controversy)
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:39:43 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To: <199801052159.QAA01136@ionline.net>
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On Mon,
5 Jan 1998, M. Cakebread wrote:
>
Can anyone briefly tell me if the references mentioned
>
are influenced by Wittgenstein's _Tractatus_, or
> _Philosophical Investigations_? Just curious.
In all
my reading of Burroughs, I've never run across anything that
made me
think, "Gee, that sounds just like Wittgenstein." So apart
from
the explicit reference in the intro to Naked Lunch, I don't think
Burroughs
ever had much to say about W.
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:44:09 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Some American Haikus
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I put
up some news sounds at Kerouac Speaks
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
They
are from the Blues and Haikus CD, from the first track called American
Haikus.
If you
don't have the CD's you can listen to snippets from it at this site
and see
(or hear rather) what you are missing.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:53:46 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: The Beat Goes On
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Boys
keep chasing girls to get a kiss
And the
beat goes on
Men
keep marching off to war
And the
beat goes on.
Was
Sonny Bono beat?
The
Charleston was once the rage uh huh?
And the
Beat goes on.
No, but
the Vanilla Fudge were.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:01:36 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Howl
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
Howl is one of the greatest poems of the 20th Century. The other one
>
that I like as much is The Lovesong of J. Alfred Prufrock. But, we
>
don't want to go down that road again, do we.
It
might be a good time to head along those hollers now that it is a new
year. Is it true that Alfred in the Batman comics
was named after J.
Alfred?
>
>
Howl was a poem that bubbles over with its positive energy. The poet
>
has at last discovered himself and in an excited frenzy takes us through
>
the entire range of his world, experience, hopes dreams and visions.
i don't
think it is so frenzied at all. perhaps
for the time.
It
>
describes too well the Amerika I grew up in and continue to live in.
My
Americka changes every day -- at least.
>
>
Howl awakened in me the realization that poetry is alive and well and
>
serves a purpose to me.
The
Liveliness of Howl is its testament in my way of thinking. It is
the
Celebration of Life through thick and thin, blood and guts and
brains
in my teeth, dead burnt bodies (oops that was Alice's Restaraunt)
>
Howl, a great great great poem. And a
perfect name.
I think
it could be named "HOOT!" <big grin>
>
>
Peace,
>
> --
>
>
Peace,
>
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
david
rhaesa
walden
farm, Kansas
p.s.
can someone backchannel me re-subscribe functions pretty please.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:34:35 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: the last time....
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Diane
De Rooy wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 97-12-04 10:04:58 EST, you write:
>
>
<< >
> > i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola
has the rights to 'on the road' -
> > anyone know more?
> > --
> >>
>
>
This will get you started:
> <A HREF=" http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
">Literary Kicks</A>
>
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
> <A
HREF="http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html">The
Beats In
> Film</A>
>
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html
> <A HREF="http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html">Hollywood's
Coming: On Th
> e
Road</A>
>
http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html
>
>
This project has been in the shadows for decades, and there is a lot of
>
information out there on the internet. We've also discussed it to death on
>
the list here, passionately and then annoyingly... you can get the letters on
>
this subject from the Beat-L archive. Maybe then we won't get sucked back
>
into discussing it endlessly...
Endlessly
is a long long time. I'm thinking maybe
the old man in the
back of
the truck should be Dennis Hopper.
Whaddayall think? Jack
Nicholson
for the Columbia football coach.
david
rhaesa
solomon,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:04:28 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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Leon
Tabory wrote:
>
> I
had a backchannell that kids me about having my tongue tied by a tongue
>
lashing from Big Daddy Bill that makes very funny references to war happy
>
clansmen in cliques.
>
>
Truth is that I considered coming to the defense of my thoughts on the
>
subject of authentication of self vs concern about our cultures and their
>
dreams. I decided to leave it alone after the subject moved on to redemption
> of
the soul, or has anyone suggested redemption of the american dream as
>
well?
i've
been suggesting this in one way or another all of my adult life
(though
admittedly i'm still a whippersnapper)
>
>
While I greatly admire your lucid reasoning as well as Diane's, you guys
>
haven't convinced me at all that Jack felt that authentication or redemption
> of
his life or his soul depended upon the drubbing that America dreaming was
>
getting from America dealing with the dirty business of survival and power.
>
>
Yes he liked to write about both and hinted many ways to the influence of
>
one upon the other myriad facets and sometimes paradoxically appearing
>
details. Yes his attention frequently roamed from one aspect to another of
>
the vast universe that are our daily experiences of life. Still I have not
>
seen one instance of where he ties in authentication of self with the goings
> on
in the American dream.
It
behooves us (as my stepsister katie's teacher would say) to seriously
consider
how each of us can help to electrify American dreaming once
again
so that this experiment in nation-hood will not be another long
long
nightmare in the darkness from which none of us can awake. It
seems
that this electrification is closely tied to notions of
authenitication
and that revivals of Americanism in both intrapersonal
and
universal meanings are self-reinforcing.
>
> It
seems to me that we are looking at our use of words that denote richly
>
complex mixtures of realities and imaginary descriptions of loosely
>
"defined" conceptualizations. phantasies,
exactly.
>
> People authenticate their american identity
when they give their lives in
>
war with declared enemies of the state.
This is
a fairly narrow scope for authentication - we can serve
authentically
without dying in wars.
It has
nevertheless happened that
>
some prisoners of war found more in common with their guards than with their
>
nation.
The
research of Bettleheim (i believe it was) on the concentration camp
victims
associating with the values of the guards seems to correlate
with
these notions.
When
two catholics kill each other ina war of their nations, does
>
that authenticate theit religious identities, their national identities, the
>
identities of their selves?
Once
again, it seems that the killing notion of authentification seems
to be a
difficult one for the world to detach.
If two soldiers from
different
nations save each other's lives in war, and they are both
catholic
which authentications are involved?
Many
eagle scouts have authenticated their scout
>
credo that way.
I only
made it a couple weeks in scouts. I
couldn't hack it.
Many
writers have authenticated their identity as writers by
>
the work they produced. Jack Keouac authenticated himself as a writer who
>
tilled the soil of the american landscape among other places that he could
>
find to search for any signs of life, mindless and mindfull action.
Tilled
the soil of the American landscape is an interesting metaphor.
I'm not
certain it is appropriate. It is lovely
but Jack was more of a
railroad
and seaman than a farmer it seems. I
would say Woody Guthrie
was
closer to the soil.
It
still
>
seems to me that for matters of the soul he seemed to reach to metaphysical
>
testimonies that transcended national dreams or realities.
I've
not digested sufficent quantities of Jack yet to recognize the
heights
of the transcendence. I don't believe
he left the meso-sphere.
Thank
Goodness William did that.
>
>
Arguments are won by one side or another.
Rarely. Arguments are part of a process of
knowing. Argumentation is
the
cutting edge of epistomelogy research not public opinion. Notions
of who
won or lost are mere soundbites they leave little weight in the
long
run.
Reflecting
upon our understanding
> of
things only stimulates us to further explorations, hopefully to be able
> to
see more clearly in the grey areas of
the mind where the perspective of
>
others brings more light as well as creates new shadows.
Definitely. And this is why the winning or losing of the
arguments per
se
isn't the question. Rather it is the
reflecting that argument brings
out in
all of us.
Until
the mind
>
becomes a well lit place. Would that be redemption?
Doubtful
But
when anyone starts
>
telling me that they know what I must do or think in order to find
>
redemption, then we do have an argument on our hands.
I
believe it would be more of a good old Irish fistfight rather than an
argument
at that point.
>
>
Unredeemed and in no need of authentication
happy
new year leon,
david
rhaesa
apt.
#23
>
leon
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 7:21 AM
>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
>
>
>I'm not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
>
>Kerouac, it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
>
>his art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
>
>and others did before him. I agree
with Diane wholeheartedly that he
>
>never found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
>
>impossibility of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
>
>through his work. How does one
discover or authenticate himself,
>
>except by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
>
>national identity, religion etc. In
the end, one's search for self may
>
>end in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
>
>but the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
>
>ideas nonetheless.
>
>.-
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:58:12 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: This Land is your land
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In a
message dated 98-01-07 09:53:36 EST, Bill Gargan wrote:
<<
I'll be really suprised if Dylan doesn't win. >>
Bill,
I agree
that the new disc is his best in years, I love it...BUT in the folk
category
he's up against Guy Clark and Iris Dement.
If he loses to either of
them...it'll
be OK with me. Guy's Keepers is NOT his
best album, but Iris's
nominated
disc is so good one wonders how she can top it. If you haven't
heard
"Living in the Wasteland of the Free", you have a rare treat in
store.
Buy
it! You won't be sorry.
Dennis