=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:54:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>>Those
who have gotten through are satisfied with it . . .
>That's
funny . . . -- this a saving grace?
"Those who have GOTTEN THROUGH"
>as
in
>those
who had the patience to sit there for 20 minutes while the page loads,
>gotten
through?
>
Then
DON'T USE IT!
>__________________________
>>>Java
is the current technology. Why back out of it?
>You
want to keep IRC in the browser? instead of using an IRC program because
>"Java
is the current technology," is this yr argument? Because of Java?
>
No,
because I don't give a rats ass about your critique, it's a FREE service
which
I'm just trying out. If it doesn't work NO HARM DONE.
>Just
what do you think Java is doing for this browser-based Kerochat you are
>so
fond of? Squat my man, it's doing
squat. It's slogging the browser with
>overhead throwing ads in your face while running iterations
of banner text
>and
cheap graphics. Not to mention reducing
screen real estate by 30%, as
>if
that's not annoying.
Not
half as annoying as your mindless banter....
>
>Maher,
I don't care if you have chat or not to be honest. Your idea is
>good;
the application is bad.
>And
if you hadn't let your ego bleed into yr response, I wld hv let this go.
Oh my,
I shouldn't have unleashed your venomous wrath!
>But
I've listened to you parade in yr posts for so many months that I just
>got
to fire one off . . .
>
><font
color="red" size=40000 face=braggadocio><b>
> Eat this flame, Maher.
Only
after I'm finished doing the same to your mother....
>
>If
I ever ran into somebody who thinks he always has the best idea in town,
>it's
got to be you.
So
what's your point!
>And
that web page of yrs, while I'm picking . . . , whoodah! now that's a
><blink>gem
</blink> of a piece of work.
And you know enough about Java!
to
>defend
it, you want us to believe.
Hmmmmmm. Now there's a snark.
I know
nothing about Java....my page is a source of information, not a Vegas
show...
>
>You
are down south with a dose of "invented here," son. Get over it. Or,
>maybe just as long as yr tickled w/ yourself, have
at it, I guess.
>
>Maybe
there's too much hot air in Arizona.....
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:27:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19980116005442.006d02f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
And
people complain about Keroauc Archive posts. This kind of Beat material
gives
me a feeling that if I had ever had a bad acid trip it would be like
this
(see below) conversation.
j grant
>>>>Those
who have gotten through are satisfied with it . . .
>>That's
funny . . . -- this a saving grace?
"Those who have GOTTEN THROUGH"
>>as
in
>>those
who had the patience to sit there for 20 minutes while the page loads,
>>gotten
through?
>>
>Then
DON'T USE IT!
>>__________________________
>>>>Java
is the current technology. Why back out of it?
>>You
want to keep IRC in the browser? instead of using an IRC program because
>>"Java
is the current technology," is this yr argument? Because of Java?
>>
>No,
because I don't give a rats ass about your critique, it's a FREE service
>which
I'm just trying out. If it doesn't work NO HARM DONE.
>
>
>>Just
what do you think Java is doing for this browser-based Kerochat you are
>>so
fond of? Squat my man, it's doing
squat. It's slogging the browser with
>>overhead throwing ads in your face while running
iterations of banner text
>>and
cheap graphics. Not to mention reducing
screen real estate by 30%, as
>>if
that's not annoying.
>
>Not
half as annoying as your mindless banter....
>
>
>>
>>Maher,
I don't care if you have chat or not to be honest. Your idea is
>>good;
the application is bad.
>>And
if you hadn't let your ego bleed into yr response, I wld hv let this go.
>
>Oh
my, I shouldn't have unleashed your venomous wrath!
>
>
>>But
I've listened to you parade in yr posts for so many months that I just
>>got
to fire one off . . .
>>
>><font
color="red" size=40000 face=braggadocio><b>
>> Eat this flame, Maher.
>
>Only
after I'm finished doing the same to your mother....
>
>
>
>
>>
>>If
I ever ran into somebody who thinks he always has the best idea in town,
>>it's
got to be you.
>
>So
what's your point!
>
>
>>And
that web page of yrs, while I'm picking . . . , whoodah! now that's a
>><blink>gem
</blink> of a piece of work.
And you know enough about Java!
to
>>defend
it, you want us to believe.
Hmmmmmm. Now there's a snark.
>
>I
know nothing about Java....my page is a source of information, not a Vegas
>show...
>
>
>>
>>You
are down south with a dose of "invented here," son. Get over it. Or,
>>maybe just as long as yr tickled w/ yourself, have
at it, I guess.
>>
>>Maybe
there's too much hot air in Arizona.....
>"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:41:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: To Maher re:Kerochat
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
07:27 PM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>And
people complain about Keroauc Archive posts. This kind of Beat material
>gives
me a feeling that if I had ever had a bad acid trip it would be like
>this
(see below) conversation.
>j
grant
It is always my pleasure to entertain the
absurd...P.
>
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:19:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Justin Vandenbroucke
<jvanden@DEC1.ETHS.K12.IL.US>
Subject: Re: the contest!
Comments:
To: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@ehc.edu>
In-Reply-To: <34BE7413.28E2@ehc.edu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello
everyone,
I just
joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
haven't
read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
I'm a
big Vonnegut fan, so this post caught my attention. I'm sorry if
this is
off topic, but what did you guys think of Timequake?
Justin
On Thu,
15 Jan 1998, Chris Dumond wrote:
>
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> I take it this this post is your entry?
>
>
quoth Kurt Vonnegut, quoth Kilgore Trout
>
>
"TING-A-LING!!!"
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:34:01 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Character Names
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
what
was it like playing with black flag?
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:40:57 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: a plea from a small timid voice
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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ALLLLLL
RIIIIGGGGHHHTTTTT YOOOOOUUUUUU PEEEEOOOOOOPPPPPLLLLEEEEE!!!!!!!
Did I
Miss a full moon here or something, it seems like everyone,
especially
(and don't hate me for singling you out) LEon, VJ Eaton,
Chris
Dumond, and Jo Grant,
ARE
BRINGING ME DOOOOOWWWWNNNNN!!!!!!!
I
personally don't want to hear about and/or get in the middle of your
petty
little arguments, and I would assume
that the other listmembers
would
rather not get involved either, and I feel you should have
corresponded
with your nasty nasty hateful words BACKCHANNEL!!!!!!
Not
only are my friends in the process of cracking up and being
completely
nasty, but remember now David Rhaesa in the hospital, and now
I have
you guys snipping at each other like a bunch of gradeschoolers.
Let's
have some manners here, please I beg of all of you. Please for
gods
sakes stop it.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:28:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: To IRCers and TKQ Maher re:Kerochat
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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7bit
I was
able to access Kerochat via irc, there are very simple
instructions
provided on how to get there. Just connect to
chat.talkcity.com,
port 6667, then go to the Kerochat room. I can assure
you
this works, I hooked up briefly with Paul before being inexplicably
booted
out (as far as I know it works fine now!). Personally, I like the
irc
version, but whatever you prefer, whether it's irc or java, Kerochat
can
accommodate either. So let's stop the silly bickering!
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:01:26 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: List?
Comments:
To: GYENIS <GYENIS@aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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i have
been having fun, reading toooooo much.
i like the idea of
reasonable
prices, but i also have no idea about what a reasonable price
for
stuff like the little broad sheets for the river city reunion and
edie k
(small little books) would even be. also if autographs have some
standard
value on a book. or program . it is mostly wsb. the little
retreats
diaries are probably worth over $200 dollars since i have heard
of one
selling unautographed for that, and i have two autographed by all
four
writers, william, allen, david and james.
So
right nowI am rereading the cat inside.
i love the cat inside, it
mentions
me by name, very sweet, and so . i go
through the boxes, some
about a
book a night. I would quess i will get
rid of about half the
stuff. some local collecter , who is not one of my favorite
people and
is
always bragging about how he suckered someone is trying to talk to me
and
makes me nervous about pricing. i am a bit sentimental but i have
collected
three major things, williams and davids stuff, blue and white
dishes,
and cook books. Now that i have
collected a husband and family
i
really have to get rid of portions of all three collections. I am sure
it is
good for me and will be better with this material floating around
to
people to actually read or enjoy. I
really appreciated the advice on
how to
properly describe the material and suggestions on sorting into
groups.
While we might fight light wild bitches there is a lot of heart
and
passion and love on this list. I appreciate you all, even the stuffy
professors,
the quipping lads, the old warriers, the plodding writers,
the
students searching for a fast quote, the unbeat fans that actually
just
want to brush up against other that love literature. so here is a
slightly
beat related post.
good
night mrs kalabash
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:00:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Character Names
Mime-Version:
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No
character by the name Husker Du in Naked Lunch.
Husker
Du means 'do you remember ?' in Danish
(trust me, I'm Danish).
cheers,
Nic
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:08:51 -0500
Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac Archives
Comments:
cc: jgrant@bookzen.com
MIME-Version:
1.0
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How
about we clear some things up right now, eh?
Jo,
your response is exactly what I'm talking about. Because you were
terribly
offended by what was a sarcastic comment in a post script, you
emailed
me to discuss the matter further, in private.
This was a
perfectly
acceptable course of action. However,
exposing my response to
a
public critique in a public forum is not acceptable. Taking a comment
and
posting it ENTIRELY out of context, in a public forum is bad form.
The
topic of INFORMATION being released about the FACTS of the archives,
rights
and other material pertaining to the dispute was NEVER brought up
by
myself. Specifically, I refer to your
recent actions regarding me,
as
objectionable. I support the truth, NOT
the threats that Nicosia has
received
or name calling involved on both sides.
I am not afraid of the
truth,
but find it REDUNDANT after it has been proposed by either side,
multiple
times without any result other than insignificant bickering.
I am
quite aware of the facts, and extremely interested in the outcome.
Let it
be known that this is my last post on the issue, and that I do
not
appreciate your infering that I am either ignorant or apathetic.
Good
day,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:05:17 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Vonnegut
Content-Type:
text/plain
>Hello
everyone,
>I
just joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
>haven't
read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
>
>I'm
a big Vonnegut fan,
So am
I... I haven't read "Timequake" but I've read a lot of his other
stuff..
though it's been so long since I've read much of it I don't
quite
remember now.
I loved
"Breakfast of Champions", "Bluebeard", and
"Jailbird".
But, of
course I love them all.
I
realize Vonnegut isn't a beat, but he does often bring up interesting
issues..
such as religion in "The Sirens of Titan" and many others in
"Slaughterhouse
Five" which was one of the most censored books of the
century.
Take
care all,
Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc. *
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
*
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:29:40 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep
<mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization:
MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: Vonnegut
Comments:
To: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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>>Hello
everyone,
>>I
just joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
>>haven't
read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
>>
>>I'm
a big Vonnegut fan,
>
>
>So
am I... I haven't read "Timequake" but I've read a lot of his other
>stuff..
though it's been so long since I've read much of it I don't
>quite
remember now.
>I
loved "Breakfast of Champions", "Bluebeard", and
"Jailbird".
>But,
of course I love them all.
>I
realize Vonnegut isn't a beat, but he does often bring up interesting
>issues..
such as religion in "The Sirens of Titan" and many others in
>"Slaughterhouse
Five" which was one of the most censored books of the
>century.
>
>Take
care all,
>Greg
This is
really off the subject of Beats now, but I had to tell you that a movie
is
in the
works based on Breakfast of Champions -- starring Bruce Willis! Ugh.
Free
web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:37:38 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: A Pome for the weekend...
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
For all
seekers of spirituality on Shabbat, the Sabbath, Saturday-coming,
Sunday-soon,
wild lost weekenders, weary petitioners and penetants: a pome to
ponder.
.........................................
God, by
JACK KEROUAC
In his
jests serious, in his murders victim,
or
which, is God? Who began
before
non-existence's dependence
on
existence, Who came before
the
chicken and the egg
Who
started out
enormous
Light
the
dark brilliance of the Mystery
for all
good hearts to shroud inside
and
keep their understanding sympathy
intact
as Beethoven's courageous
slow
sigh.
In his
atrocities victim?
In his
jests damned?
In his
damnation damnation?
Or is
God just the golden hover
light
manifesting Mayakay
the
illusion of the moon, branches
across
the face of the moon?
O
perturbing swttlontaggek
montiana
godio
Thou
high suffermaker!
Tell me
now, in Your Poem!
>From
"Pomes All Sizes"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:43:24 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andre Gauthier
<agauthi@CCO.NET>
Subject: Re: the contest!
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you
write, draw, know jokes, take pictures, all shapes, sizes, =
colors,
creeds, and sexual preferences, (you don't even have to be that =
good at
it) then submit them to my zine, 96
MILES TO PORTLAND. For more =
information
e-mail me.
-----Original
Message-----
From: Justin Vandenbroucke
[SMTP:jvanden@DEC1.ETHS.K12.IL.US]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:20 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the contest!
Hello
everyone,
I just
joined this list, and I've just been reading people's posts. I
haven't
read much Beat stuff, but I am interested in it.
I'm a
big Vonnegut fan, so this post caught my attention. I'm sorry if
this is
off topic, but what did you guys think of Timequake?
Justin
Very
good, I just finished a presentation on Kurt Vonnegut, focusing on =
Breakfast
of Champions and Timequake
Janelle
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:32:15 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: silence
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
has any
one heard about a art show in new orleans of williams works with
some
sculpture. May be in february?
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:32:33 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Yan Feng
<yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>
Subject: Nirvana
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="gb2312"
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Has
Kurt Cobin ever been mentioned on the list?
I
oneday ran across in a biography of him, says that, he read Rimbau and
WSB.
Ciao
Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:57:14 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Yan Feng
<yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>
Subject: There are three birds in the tree
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1.0
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"There
are three birds in the tree,a man shoot one, how many birds are there
now?"
This is
a puzzle i had been asked as child.
3-1=2 ?
All
birds'd be frightened and fly away.
The old
man was warning me that logic is sometimes too simple to deal with
real
world problem.
Yesterday
i saw it in a commonweal advertising, which is to warn people to
preseve
birds.
Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:04:14 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Nirvana
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1.0
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May
interest you to know that Cobain and Burroughs made a single together. It is
Burroughs
reading The 'Priest' They Called Him while Cobain makes his guitar
squeal
and howl in the background. Far as I know the two parts were recorded
seperately.
Nic
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:08:25 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: FLAME WARNING!
Content-Type:
text/plain
ok, this is going to sound harsh...but i feel
i am right in every sense
of the
word in my statement to follow...
if it is NOT beat related...make it
PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!
if you cannot handle that..get OFF THE
LIST!!!!!!!!!
i get 30+ messages a day, and only about 3 or
4 are beat related...
i am TIRED of hearing about card games...debates
on metal/punk bands
and the
freakin' kerochat debate...
i wouldn't chat with half you guys if they
glued my eyes open and
strapped
me to a computer....
you'd probably discuss the persian gulf
crisis or something!!!!!
PLEASE!!!
it's a beat list....
use it only for that reason....
-julian
ps, my
apologies again at the flame-content...
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:13:58 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep <mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization:
MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: Nirvana
Comments:
To: Nicolai Pharao <nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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>May
interest you to know that Cobain and Burroughs made a single together. It
is
>Burroughs
reading The 'Priest' They Called Him while Cobain makes his guitar
>squeal
and howl in the background. Far as I know the two parts were recorded
>seperately.
>
>Nic
>
If
you're one of the lucky few to own a copy -- pat yourself on the back. It's
a
real
treasure. As is the case with virtually
every poet, the words are so much
more
compelling
when heard, than when read. WSB is a
real madman!
Pete
Free
web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:19:04 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep
<mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization:
MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
Comments:
To: Julian Ruck <julian42@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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>
ok, this is going to sound harsh...but i feel i am right in every sense
>of
the word in my statement to follow...
>
> if
it is NOT beat related...make it PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!
> if
you cannot handle that..get OFF THE LIST!!!!!!!!!
> i
get 30+ messages a day, and only about 3 or 4 are beat related...
> i
am TIRED of hearing about card games...debates on metal/punk bands
>and
the freakin' kerochat debate...
> i
wouldn't chat with half you guys if they glued my eyes open and
>strapped
me to a computer....
>
you'd probably discuss the persian gulf crisis or something!!!!!
>
PLEASE!!!
>
it's a beat list....
>
use it only for that reason....
>
-julian
>
>ps,
my apologies again at the flame-content...
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
As a
new-comer to this list, (I was on it for about 3 months last year, went
away,
but am
back) I probably shouldn't say this, but I can't help myself. Although I
do
agree with the content of your post, I think you should have been a bit more
judicious
in the
tone you took. There are good and bad
ways to communicate -- not
necessarily
right
and wrong -- just good and bad. I have
to say your choice of words was
pretty
bad.
But
really, who the fuck am I to say.
Pete
Free
web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:16:25 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Nirvana
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Yan
Feng wrote:
>
>
Has Kurt Cobin ever been mentioned on the list?
> I oneday
ran across in a biography of him, says that, he read Rimbau and
>
WSB.
>
>
Ciao
>
Yan
actually,
curt cobain and wsb were friends. the latter said that latter
was his
favorite musician, and i believe that 'pennyroyal tea' is
dedicated
to him. also, it is probably not coincidence that cobain shot
himself
with a rifle; i think i read somewhere that guns were their
common
interest.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:20:29 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nirvana
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
WSB and
Cobain made a cd. I don't remember the
name of it, but Cobain
plays
guitar while B. reads -- haunting stuff.
Preston
>Has
Kurt Cobin ever been mentioned on the list?
>I
oneday ran across in a biography of him, says that, he read Rimbau and
>WSB.
>
>Ciao
>Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:24:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
In-Reply-To:
<19980117180825.28614.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
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Right
on, Julian!!!!!! Damn straight! I said roughly the same thing about 3
months
ago, and now everybody hates me! So brace yourself, 'bud! My
suggestion
didn't make a difference... I don't know if yours will either...
so as
always, keep your finger at the ready above the delete button! *grin*
--Sara
At
10:08 AM 1/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
ok, this is going to sound harsh...but i feel i am right in every sense
>of
the word in my statement to follow...
>
> if
it is NOT beat related...make it PRIVATE!!!!!!!!!
> if
you cannot handle that..get OFF THE LIST!!!!!!!!!
> i
get 30+ messages a day, and only about 3 or 4 are beat related...
> i
am TIRED of hearing about card games...debates on metal/punk bands
>and
the freakin' kerochat debate...
> i
wouldn't chat with half you guys if they glued my eyes open and
>strapped
me to a computer....
>
you'd probably discuss the persian gulf crisis or something!!!!!
>
PLEASE!!!
>
it's a beat list....
> use
it only for that reason....
>
-julian
>
>ps,
my apologies again at the flame-content...
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:25:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
In-Reply-To: <BFPHIMAPCALEAAAA@mailcity.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>As
a new-comer to this list, (I was on it for about 3 months last year, went
>
away,
>but
am back) I probably shouldn't say this, but I can't help myself.
Although
I
>do
agree with the content of your post, I think you should have been a bit
more
>
judicious
>in
the tone you took. There are good and
bad ways to communicate -- not
>
necessarily
>right
and wrong -- just good and bad. I have
to say your choice of words was
>
pretty
>bad.
>
>But
really, who the fuck am I to say.
>
>
>Pete
>
Speaking of fucking choice of fucking
words..... *laughing*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:37:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
Comments:
To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Diane
M. Homza wrote:
>
>
Reply to message from dcarter@TOGETHER.NET of Tue, 13 Jan
>
> I
must have missed soemthing...what happened to him???
>
>
Diane. (H)
>
>
>
>
>Hi everyone,
>
>
>
>It looks like David will be in the hospital for more than a couple of
>
>days. Here is the address for any
of you that want to send him cards,
>
>best wishes, things to cheer him up, etc.
Phone calls are not a good
>
>idea at this point and he does not have access to e-mail in the hospital.
>
>Anyone wishing to send him an e-mail message can send it to me and I will
>
>print them out, along with the many I have already received, and get them
>
>to him. His address is:
>
>
>
>David Rhaesa
>
>Salina Regional Medical Center
>
>Room 107, North Wing
>
>400 S. Santa Fe
>
>Salina, KS 67401
>
>
>
>Let's all keep him in our thoughts and prayers. I'm sure all of the
>
>positive vibes will help a great deal!
>
>DC
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
"This is Beat. Live your lives
out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
> --Jack
Kerouac
>
Diane Marie Homza
>
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
i must
have missed something TOO! What
happened to me? Many possible
theories
to twirl someday about this brief hospitalization. My rule is
not to
work to hard at "figuring it all out" right away.
anyway,
it was beautiful to come home to so many kind messages.
now i
will turn off this little computer (who i missed desperately while
i was
in-hospital) and take a much needed home-style siesta.
wishing
y'all and y'uens well,
david
rhaesa
Nita
#23
salina
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:43:39 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "V.J. Eaton"
<vj@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: He's Right, Ironically<g> Was Re: FLAME WARNING!
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> i
wouldn't chat with half you guys if they glued my eyes open and
>strapped
me to a computer....
>
you'd probably discuss the persian gulf crisis or something!!!!!
Hey,
mixed metaphor! --and, too, ironically,
not. Beat poets often use
devices
just such as this quite effectively (OBLIG Beat reference).
____________________
Sorry, =:-))
The irony is too provoking (easily 4 levels). It had to be
done!
But
makes possible a seque to this apology:
--Julian
is right about recalling topics to center.
--And,
RE: (the hopefully short-lived) Kerochat off-topic bantering, for
one, me:Guilty, I provoked it, so apologize to
the group, and to TKQ for
lack of
restraint. I wigged.
Hey,
but BTW, you guys hear about the priest, and the rabbi, and the . . . . . .
_____________________
More
harm is done under guise of goodness than ever realized
by foul
deed or evil doer. Nevertheless, I wish
I was good.
--Herbert
Huncke
V.J.
Eaton
Tempe,
AZ
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:56:30 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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Mik
Retep wrote:
>
>
> ok, this is going to sound harsh...<...snip>...
>
> PLEASE!!!
>
> it's a beat list....
>
> use it only for that reason....
>
> -julian
>
>
>
>ps, my apologies again at the flame-content...
>
>
>
>
> As
a new-comer to this list...<snip>... I think you should have been a bit
more
> judicious
> in
the tone you took. There are good and
bad ways to communicate -- not
> necessarily
>
right and wrong -- just good and bad. I
have to say your choice of words was
> pretty
>
bad.
>
>
But really, who the fuck am I to say.
>
>
Pete
tkc
sez:
i don't
think people should moderate their tone
i think
the beat movement started in the 1940s, and was connected to the
various
avant arts of the peroid. the fact that
posters today spill
over to
other topics of art, religion and pop culture show that the beat
tradition
is living, and not the death rattle of 'academics'
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:13:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Kerochat Sunday Night!
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi
folks, just a reminder that The Kerouac Quarterly will have a formal chat
on the
novel, Visions of Cody. That will be Sunday night, 8:00 Pm EST. Be
patient
with the server, we suggest using the "lite" version, and then sign
on with
a nickname...that's allthere is to it! Hope to see some of you
there..Paul
ofTKQ.
P.S. We especially want to chat with people
from Tempe, Arizona... :)
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 05:51:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I
wanted to respond to this theme earlier in the week when it was posted
but I
was too bogged down with work at the time and then I lost the
original
message, but here goes anyway. The
original poster who wanted
to know
the difference between the first noble truth, all is suffering
and the
passage from Romans where the earth moans (or whatever), hit on
what I
think is a big similarity rather than a difference. Both
Catholicism
and Buddhism ask one to look within to experience the
transcendent
and at one level both are mythic attempts aimed at the same
experience. In the Catholic church is this very apparent
in the
experience
of the mass. One is eating the body of
Christ, one is
awakening
the Christhood within. Jesus as the son
of God through his
sacrifice
made man and God one again. It is all
achieved through
symbolism
and metaphor. The journey inward in
Buddhism eventually
reaches
a recognition of the Buddhahood within--the basic open heart of
the
person. Both Catholicism and Buddhism
lead to an experience with the
transcendent
through an open heart. In both
religions suffering
in the
world exists. Jesus didn't end
suffering in this world, he gave
redemption,
atonement of sin, an ending of the separation of God and man.
I'm not
sure where Kerouac got blocked in his understanding of either
Catholicism
or Buddhism and I think this is an interesting topic for
discussion. Either one of these could have brought him
to an experience
of the
transcendent but he seemed disappointed in both. Both require a
letting
go of some parts of the rational mind and maybe that's why his
spiritual
search never ended.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:52:16 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Kerochat Sunday Night!
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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And
remember, it's accessible via irc...chat.talkcity.com, port 6667,
#kerochat.
Adrien
TKQ
wrote:
>
> Hi
folks, just a reminder that The Kerouac Quarterly will have a formal chat
> on
the novel, Visions of Cody. That will be Sunday night, 8:00 Pm EST. Be
>
patient with the server, we suggest using the "lite" version, and
then sign
> on
with a nickname...that's allthere is to it! Hope to see some of you
>
there..Paul ofTKQ.
>
> P.S. We especially want to chat with people
from Tempe, Arizona... :)
>
>
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:26:16 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Nirvana
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
Read
somewhere that JK was one of Cobain's favorite poets... Would any of you
categorise
Kurt Cobain as being "beat" or even a poet? I'm not very familiar
w/ him,
except for the few songs played on the radio, and the patches I see on
every
school bag/ pictures on every shirt in my high school. I myself am very
hesitant
to feed into the "kurt worship" but I am curious as to if he really
has (or
should have had) a claim to fame other than just being Kurt Cobain.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:49:59 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a world where the cat smiles
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.95.980115111737.106A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Preston
Whaley says:
>
>
The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is "existence
>
precedes essence;" we are born
into the world a zero and create our own
>
being from there. It presupposes
absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
~but
J.P. Sartre wrote _l'etre et le neant_ in a concentration camp
~during
the WWII. his best are the collected tales _the wall_ and
~if
someone remember the plot of the wall it's very noir, what's the
~worst
to be buriend still alive...
~ Is all that we see or seem
~ But a dream within a dream?
--edgar all poe
>
Infinite creative possibilities. Camus
and Sartre are good places to go
~Camus
died in a car crash in early 60s'
>
for prose realization of the philosophy.
It's less explicit in Kerouac
>
because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty
~nietzsche
beyond the human (uberman) the genetic of the beat
~generation,
the transbeat in the XXI century, the transmutation
~of our
faith, of the youth, the genius like a circus freak or
~really
a human being/new machine/new factory/creative?
~saluti,
~the
beetle of venice. * the cechov'c cat is smiling... *
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:10:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: "Tone"
In-Reply-To: <34C0AA7D.171A@zipcon.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
tkc sez:
>
> i
don't think people should moderate their tone
>
> i
think the beat movement started in the 1940s, and was connected to the
>
various avant arts of the peroid. the
fact that posters today spill
>
over to other topics of art, religion and pop culture show that the beat
>
tradition is living, and not the death rattle of 'academics'
>
Damn straight. What would have
happened if, when writing "Howl,"
Alan
Ginsberg had decided to "moderate his tone?" --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:28:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: FRANKLIN CARTER
<nilknarf@TACONIC.NET>
Subject: poems wanted
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The
Cosmic Baseball Association world wide web site is looking for poems
about/dedicated
to/inspired by the following beat-related people for its
1998
team roster of the Dharma Beats:
William Burroughs, Carolyn Cassady,
Neal
Cassady, John Cassady, Jan Keroac, Diane DiPrima, Diana Hansen, Joyce
Johnson,
Michael McClure, Gary Snyder, Levi Asher, Lucien Carr, Elise
Cowen,
Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Joan Haverty, Luanne Henderson, Gregory
Corso,
Kenneth Rexroth, Philip Whalen, Robert Kelly, Ann Charters, Gerald
Nicosia,
John Sampas, Gabrielle Keroac, Charles Plynell. Poems about the
lesser
known of the above are especially welcome.
Deadline is February 10.
Check
out the CBA web site and e-mail poems to Lynn Behrendt at
Nilknarf@taconic.net.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:47:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mik Retep
<mysterioso@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization:
MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com)
Subject: Re: "Tone"
Comments:
To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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>>
tkc sez:
>>
>>
i don't think people should moderate their tone
>>
>>
i think the beat movement started in the 1940s, and was connected to the
>>
various avant arts of the peroid. the
fact that posters today spill
>>
over to other topics of art, religion and pop culture show that the beat
>>
tradition is living, and not the death rattle of 'academics'
>>
> Damn straight. What would have
happened if, when writing "Howl,"
>Alan
Ginsberg had decided to "moderate his tone?" --Sara
I
didn't mean to moderate his tone in his poetry or his writings or his opinions
concerning
literature. I simply meant that when
asking a person or persons to
cease
a
particular activity -- it's often wise to first do it in a kind and respectful
manner
(and if that fails, there are other ways to handle those situations), not
in the
way that he/she chose to. It's common
sense and it's respect for others.
That's all.
Don't turn this into some silly call against censorship. I'm not
a
nazi,
I'm not an asshole.
And by
the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people to stop
discussing
non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
Peter
ps:
lets not turn this into a thread -- because ironically, it'll only distract
us
from
discussing what we're really here for.
Free
web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:03:17 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Diane
Carter wrote:
>=20
>
Both require a letting go of some parts of the rational mind and maybe =
>
that's why his spiritual search never ended.
> DC
So
you're saying he had trouble letting go some parts of the rational
mind? The mind ALWAYS is rational. There aren't any parts to it. It
is or
it isn't. You're either being rational
or you aren't. People
can't
handle death and things like that, they've gotta have something to
believe
in. It's got nothing to do with
rationality, but with
weaknesses/fears. The question we should ask ourselves is in
what way
Roman
Catholicism was responsible for Jack Kerouac leaving planet earth
way too
soon, or at least ru=EFning all those year he didn't spend 'On th=
e
Road'. For alcohol did the rest. To me, the three devils in Jacks life
were
(in no particular order): M=E9m=E8re,
Rom. Cath., booze.
If all
he had ever known would've been Buddhism, I think he'd have had a
much
more fulfilling life. His brother's
death and the way the catholic
community
acted, gave him 'responsibilities' (to him), that weren't his
to
carry.
L8R
Thomas Van Moortel
>
God's in his heaven, All's right with the world
(R. Browning)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:17:13 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: Nirvana (there's a bug in the
bassbin)
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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7bit
Zucchini4
wrote:
>
>
Read somewhere that JK was one of Cobain's favorite poets... Would any of you
>
categorise Kurt Cobain as being "beat" or even a poet? I'm not very
familiar
> w/
him, except for the few songs played on the radio, and the patches I see on
>
every school bag/ pictures on every shirt in my high school. I myself am very
>
hesitant to feed into the "kurt worship" but I am curious as to if he
really
>
has (or should have had) a claim to fame other than just being Kurt Cobain.
>
>
--Stephanie
People
still wear Kurt Cobain t-shirts in your high school? I kinda
feel
sorry for you. What about the Chemical
Brothers, Aphex Twin,
Carl
Craig? Any of those? Kurt Cobain SHOULD NOT be worshipped.
Nirvana
should be remembered (THREE members)
for their music; music
that
was relevant... years ago. Nowadays,
what then (back in them days)
was
called 'Grunge' now is as dead as Kurt Cobain (he shot his head off)
is. The truth is Cobain was a sad little loser
who couldn't handle fame
bla bla
bla. He was also a drug-addict. K.C.-worshippers are
short-sighted
and dress accordingly.
The
only thing Cobain had in common with the beats, Jack Kerouac to be
specific,
was the sad way his life ended. And
that's it. The beats had
a 'way
of life', 'love your life out', they MEANT something, Kurt Cobain
didn't
mean anything. His music did, sure, but
now it sounds old-
fashioned. And a poem he definitely was not (his lyrics
are o.k.
but
that's it). Jack Kerouac was no poet
either. That is: I've never
read
any (good) poem by him.
L8R
Thomas Van Moortel
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:42:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: KRUMMX <KRUMMX@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: poems wanted
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
i have
one i dedicated to Burroughs
are you
interested?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:15:57 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Anniversary of Gulf War
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Attention
Julian Ruck
I
believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
when
george bush was preisident.
The war
was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
neighboring
country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
historically
their territory.
A
United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
Kuwait
back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
Saddam
Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
So Damn
Insane by those who didn't like him.
One of
the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
Iraq
would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
inspect
to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
treaties.
That is
apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
want to
fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
So
Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
would
have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
I hope this
answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
think
maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
But hey
whatever you want!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:06:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
In-Reply-To:
<v01510100b0e6a53ca319@[128.125.229.170]>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jesus
fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
it
makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
the
rest is drivel. Silly me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
posts.
And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
like
this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
are
about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!! Julian, e-mail me, and we can
discuss
the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
damn
list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
insight!!!!!
On Sat,
17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
Attention Julian Ruck
>
> I
believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
>
when george bush was preisident.
>
>
The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
>
neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
>
historically their territory.
>
> A
United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
>
Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
>
Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
> So
Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
>
>
One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
>
Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
>
inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
>
treaties.
>
>
That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
>
want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
>
> So
Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
>
would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
>
> I
hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
>
think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
>
>
But hey whatever you want!!!
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:11:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Tone"
In-Reply-To: <KMBNMCLFFPMFAAAA@mailcity.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> That's all.
Don't turn this into some silly call against censorship. I'm
not a
>
nazi, I'm not an asshole.
>
>
And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people to
stop
>
discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
Hmmmm... re-read that sentence, and
tell me if it make any
sense...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:16:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Comments:
To: Thomas Van Moortel <thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
In-Reply-To: <34C14A08.263E@skynet.be>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I take
it you haven't read any of his poems, then!!! You need to read
Mexico
City Blues, Scattered Poems, Pomes All Sizes and Book of Blues
IMMEDIATELY.
If you still believe that Jack Kerouac
was not a good poet,
get
help. --Sara
>
but that's it). Jack Kerouac was no
poet either. That is: I've never
>
read any (good) poem by him.
>
> L8R
>
Thomas Van Moortel
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:14:11 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
Jesus fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
> it
makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
>
the rest is drivel.
thank
goodness all us drivel addicts have someplace to bury our
nostrils.
Silly
me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
>
posts. And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
>
like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
>
are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!!
Is she
really Jimmy Stewart's illegitimate daughter - and will there be
an
estate battle?
Julian,
e-mail me, and we can
>
discuss the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
>
damn list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
>
insight!!!!!
i
missed the forum.
dbr
>
> On
Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
> Attention Julian Ruck
>
>
>
> I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
>
> when george bush was preisident.
>
>
>
> The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
>
> neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
>
> historically their territory.
>
>
>
> A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to
retake
>
> Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
>
> Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
>
> So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
>
>
>
> One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
>
> Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants
to
>
> inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
>
> treaties.
>
>
>
> That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
>
> want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
>
>
>
> So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
>
> would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
>
>
>
> I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
>
> think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the
list.
>
>
>
> But hey whatever you want!!!
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:20:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: TO: Friends of David Rhaesa--Update
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
Nice to
have you back; you >have, been sorely missed; stay well, stay happy..
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:17:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: "Tone"
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
> That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against
censorship. I'm
> not a
>
> nazi, I'm not an asshole.
>
>
>
> And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people
to
> stop
>
> discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
>
> Hmmmm... re-read that sentence, and
tell me if it make any
>
sense...
my
impression was that the medium of for-publication poetry and the
medium
of listserve banter would have very different fields of relevancy
and
tone. And of course, analogy was
mistyped.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:20:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
Attention Julian Ruck
>
> I
believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
>
when george bush was preisident.
>
>
The war was started when
i was
walking up the backstairways of Centennial Hall at Augustana
College. i'd been following the news fairly carefully
as my big brother
was
stationed in the desert.
so the
news of actual warfare as opposed to suntanning lessons struck me
harshly. i can't say i really knew where i was for
some moments. then
a room
of undergraduate debaters was staring at me ... wondering what
next. a practice debate was scheduled.
i
didn't think twice - go on as planned.
i couldn't have stood to sit
alone
worrying about my brother on that first night.
work was a decent
means
to avoid the selfish and sentimental concerns i had for one
soldier
amidst the many fighting on both sides of whatever the cause
was.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:24:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Tone"
In-Reply-To: <34C1742E.6A36@midusa.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat,
17 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
>
> > That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against
censorship.
I'm
>
> not a
>
> > nazi, I'm not an asshole.
>
> >
>
> > And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking
people
to
>
> stop
>
> > discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
>
>
>
> Hmmmm... re-read that
sentence, and tell me if it make any
>
> sense...
>
> my
impression was that the medium of for-publication poetry and the
>
medium of listserve banter would have very different fields of relevancy
>
and tone. And of course, analogy was
mistyped.
GOD, I missed your posts, David!! Did
you read anything good while
you
were on the mend? --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:25:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Pull My Daisy
In-Reply-To: <34C1742E.6A36@midusa.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Has
anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it? Is it worth
ordering?
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:33:47 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Pull My
Daisy is a fun film to watch. It doesn't make much sense at
first
(it commands repeated viewings), but Kerouac's narration is a
total
delight. Highly highly highly reccommended!
Adrien
Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
Has anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it? Is it worth
>
ordering?
>
> Sara Feustle
>
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 21:40:36 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Abe Lincoln
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
Was not Abe Lincoln a sufferer from MD/Bipolar?
>
A
wooden plaque with the Lincoln Memorial sits on my wall because of
this
rumour. It is to remind me in hardtimes
that some folks with my
illness
have amounted to something afterall.
Since
the purchase i have come to the conclusion that the diagnosis is
less
than certain. It is based on historians
playing psychiatrist or
psychiatrists
playing historians. I have to wonder if
any one's diaries
and
journals and collective writings were left open to close scrutiny if
some
form of diagnosis would not spurt forth.
But i keep him on the
wall
nonetheless!
> --
>
>
Peace,
>
>
Bentz
>
bocelts@scsn.net
>
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:48:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Abe Lincoln
In-Reply-To: <34C179B4.36BB@midusa.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well,
at least you're rumored to be in good company!!! I've heard that
Howard
Stern AND the Unabomber have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. Not
very
encouraging... *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Sat,
17 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
>
> Was not Abe Lincoln a sufferer from MD/Bipolar?
>
>
>
> A
wooden plaque with the Lincoln Memorial sits on my wall because of
>
this rumour. It is to remind me in
hardtimes that some folks with my
>
illness have amounted to something afterall.
>
>
Since the purchase i have come to the conclusion that the diagnosis is
>
less than certain. It is based on
historians playing psychiatrist or
>
psychiatrists playing historians. I
have to wonder if any one's diaries
>
and journals and collective writings were left open to close scrutiny if
>
some form of diagnosis would not spurt forth.
But i keep him on the
>
wall nonetheless!
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> Bentz
>
> bocelts@scsn.net
>
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:45:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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<LURK
MODE OFF>
<SMILE>
Just a
thought. . . the continuous discussion
of what should or shouldn't
be
discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say shouldn't
be
posted. . .
<GRIN>
<CHUCKLE>
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:13:13 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
In a
message dated 17-Jan-98 7:08:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
writes:
<<
I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most
of the posts on this list
are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!!
Julian, e-mail me, and we can
discuss the literature in depth, which is the
reason that aI joined this
damn list in the first place! >>
Sara,
if you have something in-depth to contribute about Beat literature, why
are you
asking for private correspondence, rather than starting a thread?
I know
lately I've posted a few things--the Proust questions, a poem by Jack
titled
"God," and a few other things--that are without question appropriate
to
this
list, but you made no comment. In fact, there was very little comment.
Not
everything everyone says elicits comment, and not everything requires
comment.
Also, it seems to me the majority of comments continue to come from
students,
and are in the form of questions.
All of
that is fair on this "unmoderated forum," as it says in the
"Welcome"
letter.
There's
a thread hanging about Buddhism and Christianity that hasn't seen much
action.
I think that's always a great subject--how Jack lived in both of those
worlds,
or how each of those worlds failed/served him.
Once in
a while a little dry wit does seem appropriate, though, as in
Timothy's
post, which, while being facetious, was also a reminder: it's only a
newsgroup;
it's not real life. Don't take it too seriously.
I'm
looking forward to the next thread you start, and will be happy to respond
to it
to the best of my ability. Okay?
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:19:22 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: threads while i was gone
(was Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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IDDHI
wrote:
>
>
>
There's a thread hanging about Buddhism and Christianity that hasn't seen much
>
action. I think that's always a great subject--how Jack lived in both of those
>
worlds, or how each of those worlds failed/served him.
>
>
Maggie
i'm
looking forward to following this one in some detail. my Daddy is a
retired
presbyterian minister and when i told him about the dichotomy
between
the two religions he just said that Jack shoulda been
Presbyterian! (i'm going to start calling Father's
religion Celtic
Christianity
and see if it gets his goat!)
I think
that many of the threads the beats discussed in and out of their
literature
strike us to the bone (a phrase i lovingly steal from
patricia)
in such a way that it is very easy to be talking about the
beats
in between the lines of typing and characters of individual words
just
about anytime we sit and commun-icate with others of like
interest.
the
candor and openness that I've heard attributed to A.Ginsberg is a
wonderful
thing --- especially with a forum such as this in which candor
is a
high level principle. it would be a
shame for anyone to get the
hairs
on the back of their necks crawling too high or too stiffly over a
post
here or there by anyone.
as for
rules of engagement on this listserve, i've broken them already
many
times and am looking forward to breaking any new one's coming out
in the
just published guide "Emily Post tells how to type on
listserves".
peace,
joy, and understanding,
david
rhaesa (race)
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:29:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Archive Post
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jo
grant wrote:
>
> If
it will help you be a little less "tired" I will add "Keroauc
Archive
>
Post" to the SUBJECT line--starting with this post--so you can delete
>
without having to read the post.
>
>
> j
grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
jo,
i think
this is definitely a good idea.
personally, i must admit that i
have
followed the various archive threads about as closely as i CNN
during
the Orange Juice Trial. BUT - putting
on the thinking cap
associated
with legal thought takes some work and i prefer to let the
messages
stack up a bit before examining them. i
don't think it is wise
to
chill your expression on this or other matters but i think your
suggestion
here provides a very useful compromise for all involved.
Personally,
my more immediate interest in these regards is with the
potential
loss of the Memory Babe Archives to the community. I would
hope
that you might extend your information service on those matters to
include
a Subject heading Memory Babe Archive Post.
I think
this allows everyone to deal with the information in the best
means
possible.
but of
course, feel free to ignore my message too!
david
rhaesa (race)
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:22:15 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Yan Feng
<yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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><LURK
MODE OFF>
><SMILE>
>Just
a thought. . . the continuous
discussion of what should or shouldn't
>be
discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say shouldn't
>be
posted. . .
><GRIN>
><CHUCKLE>
>
>Bruce
>
What's
you listers' understanding of beats may be very interesting,
specially
to me, because i am doubting about my understanding of beats.
Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:46:52 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Nirvana
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Zucchini4
wrote:
>
>
Read somewhere that JK was one of Cobain's favorite poets... Would any of you
>
categorise Kurt Cobain as being "beat" or even a poet? I'm not very
familiar
> w/
him
>
--Stephanie
well, i
liked his stuff. there was a lot of humor
and honesty in
nirvana's
music, and i found it head and shoulders above pearl jam,
counting
crows, stone temple pilots and other similar sounding bands.
if
patti smith is beat, i think he could be, too...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:19:54 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
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>
Thomas Van Moortel wrote:=20
> So
you're saying he had trouble letting go some parts of the rational
>
mind? The mind ALWAYS is rational. There aren't any parts to it. It
> is
or it isn't. You're either being
rational or you aren't. People
>
can't handle death and things like that, they've gotta have something=20
> to
>
believe in. It's got nothing to do with
rationality, but with
>
weaknesses/fears. The question we
should ask ourselves is in what way
>
Roman Catholicism was responsible for Jack Kerouac leaving planet earth
>
way too soon, or at least ru=EFning all those year he didn't spend 'On=20
>
the
>
Road'. For alcohol did the rest. To me, the three devils in Jacks=20
>
life
>
were (in no particular order):
M=E9m=E8re, Rom. Cath., booze.
> If
all he had ever known would've been Buddhism, I think he'd have had=20
> a
>
much more fulfilling life. His
brother's death and the way the=20
>
catholic
>
community acted, gave him 'responsibilities' (to him), that weren't his
> to
carry.
I'm
saying that Kerouac had many epiphanies, many experiences that=20
touched
the transcendent, but his mind got in the way when it came to=20
understanding
the significance of those experiences.
Belief and faith=20
begin
where logical reasoning ends. There are
so many places in his work=
=20
where
he describes the oneness and beauty that is within and behind all=20
things
but the moments are short and he never quite grasps it in living=20
his
daily life. I don't think it was the
Catholic Church that was the=20
stumblingblock
for him spiritually, it was what he saw in himself that he=
=20
didn't
like, his own inability to love himself.
But I do think you are=20
right
that perhaps much of this goes back to Gerard.
Gerard was placed=20
on a
pedestal, an example of innocence and goodness that died young, an=20
example
of goodness that perhaps Kerouac felt he could never live up to.=20
But I
also don't think one can blame the church for this problem; it=20
seemed
to be more of a family attitude. What
obscured both Catholicism=20
and
Buddhism for him is best described by that section in Desolation=20
Angels
when he writes, "...'When I get to the top of Desolation Peak and=20
everybody
leaves on mules and I'm alone I will come face to face with God=
=20
or
Tathagata and find out once and for all what is the meaning of this=20
existence
and suffering and going to and fro in vain' but instead I'd=20
come
face to face with myself..."
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:57:25 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
Attention Julian Ruck
>
> I
believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
>
when george bush was preisident.
>
>
The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
>
neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
>
historically their territory.
>
don't
forget the US at first indicated thru our ambassador we wouldn't
interfere
with a border war, and actually armed saddam before the war.
also
while iraq was involved in its war with iran, kuwait took control
of much
or iraq's oil production territory.
this left iraq broke and
with
out a means of production to get out of debt
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:44:04 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Alan Harrington's "Secret
Swinger"
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I just
finished reading this 1966 novel, which I picked up because I had
read
that the author had moved in the same circles with Kerouac, Ginsberg,
et al
in the 50's (he appears briefly as Hal Hingham in "On The
Road"). In
this
novel several people are recognizable...briefly Kerouac and John
Clellon
Holmes, and two major characters based on Bill Cannastra and
Ginsberg. Ginsberg's characterization (as "George
Muchnik") is far from
flattering,
portraying him as a manipulative psychological bully. The
entire
tone of the novel is panicked despair as the protagonist stumbles
through
a rather classic case of mid-life crisis.
The ending, however, is
particularly
bizarre and gruesome. I was quite
disturbed by it. Has
anyone
else read this book, and what were your reactions to it? Has anyone
read
anything else by Harrington? According
to the dust jacket he wrote an
earlier
novel called "The Revelations of Dr. Modesto" which is supposed to
be very
funny, but after reading this book I'm not too sure what to think.
I
welcome any insights anyone can offer me on this.
Thanks,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:09:40 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Alan Harrington's "Secret
Swinger"
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harrington
also wrote a book called 'psychopaths' where he allegedly
claims
neal cassady was a psychopath. i
haven't been able to find it,
though.
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:42:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: beth
<Elizabeth.Ann.Mekker@DREXEL.EDU>
Subject: Re: the contest!
In-Reply-To:
<01BD22BF.33374500@pm3-1-30.connectcorp.net>
Mime-Version:
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I think
I'd like information about you zine.
Thanks for all and any you
will
give me. beth...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:42:18 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: homage to rants/ poetry drivel warning
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The
juice
the
juice from an orange is alive patricia
this
war is all about control.
hell if
they wanted to control drugs
then
they would tax them.
what
they want to do
is to
control us.
We
stick out like
pink
ladies in the short lawn of now.
whispers
to that when you try and help
the
truely insane, the ones
that
only know their own selfishness
they
will devour your head whole for breadfast.
No
faster way to find the drain hole.
wrap
the ozone around your shoulders
let
your mind into flights of reality
no
greater danger to the status quo
than
truth humorously told.
unsheath
the penis,
paint
the goddam warts
let the
curled pubic hairs
clog
the public toilets.
just
don't pass personal remarks.
ones
word can be a tangible coin
take
the responsibility and
keep
shoving the show up the road.
patricia
elliott
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 02:43:46 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
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Here's
my take on the Catholicism vs Buddhism thang...
Years
ago we had a family friend name Gianni Leonardo who made a real big deal
out of
being 100% Italian and even became the #1 guy in the local Knights of
Columbus. After about twenty years somebody somehow
someway found out that
this
guy was in fact named Moshe Shapiro (or something) and that he wanted so
badly
to forget his Jewish roots that he made up this whole new identity. And
the
comment made by another family friend Freddie Frank (local sage and
Holocast
survivor complete with tattoo) to my mother was, "Lo-Rain, Gianni was
born a
jew, he lives his life everyday denying he's a jew and one of these
days
he's going to die a jew whether he likes it or not". "Truer words were
never
spoken", I thought, and this is one of the main reasons when my wife and
I met
and married we decided I would not convert to Judaism and she would not
convert
to Catholicism. We both firmly believed
and still do today that your
image
of God your entire life deep down will be the God of your childhood.
And so
it was, I believe, with Jacky Keracky.
I think Jack saw Buddhism as an
intelletual
curiosity and while he maybe wanted to believe and certainly
practiced
he knew in his heart he was Ti Jean of the Stations of the Cross.
In fact
I know I read, probably in Memory Babe, that Jack himself said he knew
when he
was on his deathbed he'd be asking for the last rites.
Interviewer: "How come you've never written
about
Jesus?"
Jack Kerouac:
"All I write about is Jesus."
Paris
Review,
Summer, 1968
Jerry
Cimino
Fog
City
www.kerouac.com
1-800-KER-OUAC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 23:55:03 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
Mime-Version:
1.0
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>Has
anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it? Is it worth
>ordering?
>
I've
seen it. It's good. It's cool.
There is no dialog but kerouac
narrates
it and when there is dialog he voices it for the characters.
Worth
ordering (but I don't know how much it costs)
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:04:14 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: Catholicism vs Buddhism
Mime-Version:
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>Here's
my take on the Catholicism vs Buddhism thang...
>
>Years
ago we had a family friend name Gianni Leonardo who made a real big deal
>out
of being 100% Italian and even became the #1 guy in the local Knights of
>Columbus. After about twenty years somebody somehow
someway found out that
>this
guy was in fact named Moshe Shapiro (or something) and that he wanted so
>badly
to forget his Jewish roots that he made up this whole new identity. And
>the
comment made by another family friend Freddie Frank (local sage and
>Holocast
survivor complete with tattoo) to my mother was, "Lo-Rain, Gianni was
>born
a jew, he lives his life everyday denying he's a jew and one of these
>days
he's going to die a jew whether he likes it or not". "Truer words were
>never
spoken", I thought, and this is one of the main reasons when my wife and
>I
met and married we decided I would not convert to Judaism and she would not
>convert
to Catholicism. We both firmly believed
and still do today that your
>image
of God your entire life deep down will be the God of your childhood.
>
>And
so it was, I believe, with Jacky Keracky.
I think Jack saw Buddhism as an
>intelletual
curiosity and while he maybe wanted to believe and certainly
>practiced
he knew in his heart he was Ti Jean of the Stations of the Cross.
>In
fact I know I read, probably in Memory Babe, that Jack himself said he knew
>when
he was on his deathbed he'd be asking for the last rites.
>
>
> Interviewer: "How come you've never written
about
>Jesus?"
>
> Jack Kerouac:
"All I write about is Jesus."
>
>
Paris
>Review,
Summer, 1968
>
>
>Jerry
Cimino
>Fog
City
>www.kerouac.com
>1-800-KER-OUAC
Yeah, I
would also say that the attitude or surprise of gary Snyder to the
"last
rites" anecdote (which is in Jack's Book as well as others) even
while
kerouac was in the midst of his most strong Buddhist phase is more a
reflection
of Snyder's misunderstanding of kerouac and his religious
attitudes
and snyder's misunderstanding of (or maybe rather his particular
take
on) both Buddhism and Catholicism in
the real world.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 00:35:26 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
Mime-Version:
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What is
the difference between "until now" of Romans 8:22 and the third
noble
truth that says suffering can be overcome?
Unfortunately
now that I have a chance to respond to responses to the
Keroac-Buddhism-Catholicism
post I don't have the specific posts to respond
to, so
I'll have to paraphrase.
The
initial question was
<<How
does the first Noble Truth that all life is suffering differ from
Romans
8:22
"For
we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together
until
now."?>>
The
first two answers posted were that there was no difference but the
difference
came in the consequences of knowing this first noble truth and
in the
"answer" or response to it.
One of
the responses said that the difference was in the "until now".
I
appreciate that. With that in mind
then, what is the difference between
"until
now" of Romans and the third noble truth that says suffering can be
overcome?
Kerouac
wrote number three (on page three of SoD) as "The Supression of
Suffering
can be Acheived".
How
does that differ from "until now" and what it infers?
(As a
side note that may be more important than just a side, Lei Asher's
Lit Kicks
site has the 3rd as "3.Suffering can only cease if desire ceases
" slightly different than Kerouac's.
The
True Buddha School [http://www.tbsn.org] calls it "Noble Truth of
the
Path that leads to the Extinction of Suffering")
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:03:03 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ferlinghetti & kerouac
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.95.980115111737.106A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version:
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amici
miei cari,
kerouac
isn't a poet maybe a statement according to
lawrence
ferlinghetti who refused to publish jk's mexico city blues
(or i'm
wrong?), saluti, rinaldo * the beetle *
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:30:38 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
In-Reply-To: <01bd249a$395cf9c0$LocalHost@---->
Mime-Version:
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Yan
wrote:
>><LURK
MODE OFF>
>><SMILE>
>>Just
a thought. . . the continuous
discussion of what should or shouldn't
>>be
discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say shouldn't
>>be
posted. . .
>><GRIN>
>><CHUCKLE>
>>
>>Bruce
>>
>What's
you listers' understanding of beats may be very interesting,
>specially
to me, because i am doubting about my understanding of beats.
>
>Yan
>
Yan,
have
you seen the Peace Poem?
Over
400 schools from 38 countries contributed to the Peace Poem by
submitting,
via e-mail, two lines of poetry each to the United Nations. The
lines
were compiled into a single poem, called the Peace Poem.
http://www.un.org/Pubs/CyberSchoolBus/peaceday/poem/poem.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:24:03 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian Peterson
<peterson@EZNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
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Sara,
There
is a video tape that came out in 1995 titled "2 Films by Alfred
Leslie". It has the 1959 film "Pull My
Daisy"(29 minutes) and a 1964
film
"The Last Clean Shirt"(44 minutes).
The Last Clean Shirt has a
dialogue
by Frank O'hara and is a gas. I picked up a copy at the Whitney
Museum
in NYC during their Beat exposition. At
the time it cost about
the
same as the more commercial edition with just Pull My Daisy. The
only
problem with finding copies is that there is no info on the video
tape or
on the jacket as to who published the tape or where it can be
published. Maybe someone out there knows Alfred Leslie
or will be
seeing
him at a concert or poetry event and can ask if it is still
available. Well worth the effort.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:43:07 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
Content-Type:
text/plain
<REFUSING
TO GIVE UP AND UNSUBSCRIBE>
someday
people will learn to drop it
<STEPPING
BACK TO WAIT FOR THINGS TO SETTLE>
On a
beat-note, does anyone know if Ray Bradbury was at all connected to
the
beats? He was writing the very prophetic, anti-50's culture at the
same
time Howl was going down...
-Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc. *
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
*
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
><LURK
MODE OFF>
><SMILE>
>Just
a thought. . . the continuous
discussion of what should or
shouldn't
>be
discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say
shouldn't
>be
posted. . .
><GRIN>
><CHUCKLE>
>
>Bruce
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:48:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy
In-Reply-To: <34C22C95.4604@eznet.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Brian:
Thanks a lot!:) And thanks to everyone else that answered my
inquiry.:)
I recommend the catalog of www.kerouac.com to everybody on this
list. I
don't remember who advertised it on here. but I sent him/her my
address
and I immediately received the most comprehensive, kick-ass catalog
of
Beat! --Sara
At 11:24
AM 1/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Sara,
>There
is a video tape that came out in 1995 titled "2 Films by Alfred
>Leslie". It has the 1959 film "Pull My
Daisy"(29 minutes) and a 1964
>film
"The Last Clean Shirt"(44 minutes).
The Last Clean Shirt has a
>dialogue
by Frank O'hara and is a gas. I picked up a copy at the Whitney
>Museum
in NYC during their Beat exposition. At
the time it cost about
>the
same as the more commercial edition with just Pull My Daisy. The
>only
problem with finding copies is that there is no info on the video
>tape
or on the jacket as to who published the tape or where it can be
>published. Maybe someone out there knows Alfred Leslie
or will be
>seeing
him at a concert or poetry event and can ask if it is still
>available. Well worth the effort.
>Brian
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:55:28 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nirvana (there's a bug in the
bassbin)
Reply
to message from thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE of Sat, 17 Jan
>People
still wear Kurt Cobain t-shirts in your high school? I kinda
>feel
sorry for you. What about the Chemical
Brothers, Aphex Twin,
>Carl
Craig? Any of those? Kurt Cobain SHOULD NOT be worshipped.
>Nirvana
should be remembered (THREE members)
for their music; music
>that
was relevant... years ago. Nowadays,
what then (back in them days)
>was
called 'Grunge' now is as dead as Kurt Cobain (he shot his head off)
>is. The truth is Cobain was a sad little loser
who couldn't handle fame
>bla
bla bla. He was also a drug-addict. K.C.-worshippers are
Would
we say that Jack Kerouac was a "sad little loser" becuase he
couldn't
handle his fame, either? Would we say
that writing that was
called
"Beat" is as dead as Jack Kerouac is? I can find a lot of parallels
between
JK & KC. But then again, you can find
parallels between anything
if you
OPEN YOUR EYES.
Diane.
>short-sighted
and dress accordingly.
>The
only thing Cobain had in common with the beats, Jack Kerouac to be
>specific,
was the sad way his life ended. And
that's it. The beats had
>a
'way of life', 'love your life out', they MEANT something, Kurt Cobain
>didn't
mean anything. His music did, sure, but
now it sounds old-
>fashioned. And a poem he definitely was not (his lyrics
are o.k.
>but
that's it). Jack Kerouac was no poet
either. That is: I've never
>read
any (good) poem by him.
>
> L8R
>
Thomas Van Moortel
>
>
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:58:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Philibin
<deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: FLAME WARNING!
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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> if you cannot handle that..get OFF THE
LIST!!!!!!!!!
You might want to take your own
advice... I am on many lists and there
is
not one
that stays completly on topic.
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net |
web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat
]
["Remember,
democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and
[
murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit
[
suicide."
[ -- John
Adams
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy
v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:06:46 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
didn't
any of you people out there feel a little bit threatened when the
Gulf
War started??? Doesn't anyone have a
sick feeling in the back of
their
mind that this might all start again?
And knowing the weapons that
are out
there (the ones we know about & the ones we don't)--isn't anyone a
tad bit
afraid that our world can end without warning?
And if I remember
correctly,
wasn't this fear, this uncertainty, one of the driving forces of
the
Beat Movement??? The A-Bomb & all
that nifty stuff? The end of WW II?
Anyone
with me here? To those of you crying,
"This isn't a Beat-Related
Topic!!"--what
do you _want_ to talk about, then?
Initiate something,
dammit! And people will respond. "If you build it, they will
come--" oh,
wait,
I'm getting off-beat, ain't I?
Yeah,
yeah, whatever--
Di.
>
>Jesus
fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
>it
makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
>the
rest is drivel. Silly me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
>posts.
And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
>like
this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
>are
about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!! Julian, e-mail me, and we can
>discuss
the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
>damn
list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
>insight!!!!!
>
>On
Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>>
Attention Julian Ruck
>>
>>
I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
>>
when george bush was preisident.
>>
>>
The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
>>
neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
>>
historically their territory.
>>
>>
A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to retake
>>
Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
>>
Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
>>
So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
>>
>>
One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
>>
Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants to
>>
inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
>>
treaties.
>>
>>
That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
>>
want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
>>
>>
So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
>>
would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
>>
>>
I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
>>
think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the list.
>>
>>
But hey whatever you want!!!
>>
>
>
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:42:22 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alan Harrington's "Secret
Swinger"
Jym,
I read
Harrington's Dr. Modesto about a month. It's worth reading but don't if
you are
expecting a "Beat Novel." It's more a satire of 1950s values, pretty
well
done at that. If thatinterests you, give it a whirl. Let me know what you
think.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:22:42 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
In a
message dated 98-01-17 22:19:28 EST, you write:
<<
I take it you haven't read any of his poems, then!!! You need to read
Mexico City Blues, Scattered Poems, Pomes All
Sizes and Book of Blues
IMMEDIATELY. If you still believe that
Jack Kerouac was not a good poet,
get help. --Sara
>>
Personally,
I haven't read many Kerouac poems... San Francisco Blues and then
a few
other ones gleaned from the net.... oh! and the one at the end of Big
Sur...
And I wouldn't say he was "no poet" but I wasn't very impressed
either.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:41:50 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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Greg
Beaver-Seitz wrote:
> On
a beat-note, does anyone know if Ray Bradbury was at all connected to
>
the beats? He was writing the very prophetic, anti-50's culture at the
>
same time Howl was going down...
>
>
-Greg
as much
as i enjoy bradbury, i don't think you can connect him much with
the
beats.
though
he's best known for science fiction, his early work was
influenced
by hp lovecraft, and there's a tenuous connection in that
lovecraft
was a literary descendant of poe, thru guys like lord dunsanay
(sp?)
and arthur machen, and the beats are descendants of poe thru
baudelaire
and rimbaud. also bradbury's work is
humanist, it's about
people
in futuristic situations, with the emphasis on the human, not the
machine,
and he was, i'm sure, an influence on harlan ellison (who wrote
a
kerouac like first person teen gang book 'memos from purgatory' , and
later
wrote for the LA free press) and i'm sure on vonnegut, who's been
discussed
here recently.
bradbury
wrote some fine existentialist kinda non SF stuff, too, i'm
thinking
of a short story called 'i see you never' about the same kind
of
informational lag and alienation from experience that's at the heart
of
camus' the stranger, and another one about fashion photography in
mexico,
about the abstraction of real lives into stereotyped
perceptions. again, bradbury was about the human in us
all, not so much
about
the technology.
arthur
clark's 'childhood's end' and heinlien's 'stranger in a strange
land'
are referenced by wolfe as being important parts of the pranksters
mythos,
but i haven't seen bradbury so connected.
(i haven't read those
two
books, but i'm sure someone here has, it's my understanding that
clark
and heinlien were more technological writers, they were more
interested
than bradbury in making the science in their books workable
than
he.
bradbury's a great stylist, with a love of
language and it wouldn't
surprise
me at all if he read and enjoyed kerouac and burroughs, but i
don't
think he's really beat. he grew up in
LA, a classmate of stop
action
animator ray harryhausen, and they were both active as kids in
the LA
science fiction fandom of the time. he
was accepted by the older
guys in
part because of his encyclopaedic memory.
he knew the contents
of
every major SF mag published.
you
gotta remember, when he started hitting his stride in the late 1940s
there
were some things you just couldn't write about in popular
magazines:
sex, religion, racism, and science fiction was a format where
you
could dress up the undiscussable in space suits and get away with
it.
i think
there's a definate connection in readership.
i know i'm not the
only
guy on this list who grew up reading julie schwartz' comics like
mystery
in space, flash and green lantern or the wonderful lee/kirby
fantastic
four, hulk, x men, thor, etc, (or even the earlier EC comics
like
weird fantasy) before graduating to science fiction, and then on to
real
lit-oo-ra-choor.
kerouac
and cassady, of course loved the shadow pulps and burroughs dug
the
black mask hard boiled detectives
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 05:24:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
MIME-Version:
1.0
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>
Timothy K. Gallagher wrote:
>
>
Kerouac wrote number three (on page three of SoD) as "The Supression of
>
Suffering can be Acheived".
>
>
How does that differ from "until now" and what it infers?
>
>
(As a side note that may be more important than just a side, Lei
>
Asher's
>
Lit Kicks site has the 3rd as "3.Suffering can only cease if desire
>
ceases
>
" slightly different than
Kerouac's.
>
>
The True Buddha School [http://www.tbsn.org] calls it "Noble Truth of
>
the Path that leads to the Extinction of Suffering")
Thanks
for paraphrasing the original question and answers for those of us
who
lost the messages. I would also say the
"until now" is the most
important
part of the verse and refers to what has just happened, the
coming
of Christ, his teachings, death, resurrection.
It also seems to
refer
to the belief that with the first man, Adam, came the fall and the
beginning
of suffering. Christ's sacrifice of
himself through suffering
restored
unity with God, thus ending suffering.
I, however, don't read
this as
meaning that human beings never suffer, or those that believe in
Christ
never suffer. My interpretation is that
Christ's teachings are a
path
through suffering not that different from the "Noble Truth of the
Path
that leads to the extinction of suffering." As the next verse of
Romans
goes on to say, "...even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting
for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body." It seems
to me
that some people interpret Christianity as "looking outward" and
Buddhism
as "looking inward," which puts the two at odds. Both are about
a path
or journey towards truth, towards a condition where dualities
don't
exist. They both use different
mythologies to arrive at the same
place. It seems to me that in both, becoming one
with the source of
life,
leads beyond suffering. I get the
feeling in reading Kerouac that
in his
search for meaning, he was constantly asking, 'What is the meaning
of
existence? Why do people suffer?"
but rather than looking within
using
either the path of Catholicism or Buddhism, he thought the answer
would
just be handed to him at some point.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:50:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: EGE DUNDAR
<ege.dundar@TR.CGOCABLE.CA>
Subject: Kurt Cobain
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Mr Van
Moortel,
Maybe it is true that
Nirvana's music doesn't have the same impact on
people
as it did a few years ago, but how can it be that a "meaningless
person"
like Cobain can write meaningful music that (and you wrote this)
should
be remembered. I personally find this pretty incoherent.
Ege Dundar
P.S. The reason why Nirvana doesn't have the
same impact as before is
that a
lot of the people who listened to it were just following the
"fashion"
of mainstream music and didn't even know what the guy was talking
about.
These people are now listening - pardon me, bragging to their
friends
that they are listening - to "cool" music like Smash Mouth, Reel
Big
Fish and other popular-for-a-week bands. Nirvana's music was honest,
subtle
(most of the time) and witty. If Kerouac had started a band, I'm
sure
his songs wouldn't be that far away from K.C.'s writings.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:03:15 +0100
Reply-To:
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
MIME-Version:
1.0
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EGE
DUNDAR wrote:
>
> Mr
Van Moortel,
> Maybe it is true that
Nirvana's music doesn't have the same
impact on
>
people as it did a few years ago, but how can it be that a "meaningless
>
person" like Cobain can write meaningful music that (and you wrote this)
>
should be remembered. I personally find this pretty incoherent.
> Ege Dundar
>
>
P.S. The reason why Nirvana doesn't
have the same impact as before is
>
that a lot of the people who listened to it were just following the
>
"fashion" of mainstream music and didn't even know what the guy was
talking
>
about. These people are now listening - pardon me, bragging to their
>
friends that they are listening - to "cool" music like Smash Mouth,
Reel
>
Big Fish and other popular-for-a-week bands. Nirvana's music was honest,
>
subtle (most of the time) and witty. If Kerouac had started a band, I'm
>
sure his songs wouldn't be that far away from K.C.'s writings.
You can
call me Thomas.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:48:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To:
<v01510100b0e6a53ca319@[128.125.229.170]>
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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With
the comments on the list about the Gulf War I wondered if anyone could
explain
why a war was fought to restore Kuwait's independence, but nothing
was
done to restore Tibet's independence.
Obviously
there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
to us,
but what else. Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights preducated
on the
power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese territory in
the
recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English military
officer
drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
Sure
BEATS me.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:45:11 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher
<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: existentialism & beats
MIME-Version:
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Hi
everybody, sorry for the delayed response on this beats/
existentialism
thread, and my absence. I've been
travelling --
glad to
come back and see this list is as weird as ever.
About
the connection between Beat lit and existentialist
philosophy,
I think there is a strong one, but it's difficult
to
state this cleanly because, unlike the Beat writers who
were a
small and cohesive group of people that hung out
together,
the so-called existentialist philosophers spanned
two
centuries, various European countries, and virtually
every
belief system.
But
Soren Kierkegaard is usually considered the first
existentialist
philosopher, and I've always seen Kierkegaard
and
Kerouac as kindred spirits, especially in their
wranglings
with religion. Both of them also seemed
to
share a
certain innocence and vulnerability in their
writings
and in their life stories.
I also
think that there's a branch of existentialism that's
very
compatible with Buddhist thought. For
instance
the
book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" looks
like
it's about Zen philosophy, but the actual philosophical
argument
it presents is pure 100% textbook existentialism,
with
bits and pieces of Zen thrown in for flavor.
I'd
definitely
say that this book represents a good example
of
where Buddhism, existentialism and Beat writing
come
together.
Sorry
for the essay answer, I used to be a philosophy major
and I
still miss it sometimes.
---------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
|
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*
|
| |
|
"Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
| -- Joni
Mitchell |
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:56:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980117220116.60562A-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version:
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Sorry
listers. I should have predicated this post with:
Because
of the obvious Beatness of the Dali Lama and the seeming Beat
attitude
of the people of Tibet I was wondering: Why was a war fought to
restore
Kuwait's independence, but nothing done to restore Tibet's
independence.
Obviously
there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
to
ours, but what else? Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights
preducated
on the power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese
territory
in the recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English
military
officer drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
Was it
a case of little religion vs big oil?
Sure
BEATS me.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:18:22 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand
<vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Zucchini4
wrote:
>
>
Personally, I haven't read many Kerouac poems... San Francisco Blues and then
> a
few other ones gleaned from the net.... oh! and the one at the end of Big
>
Sur... And I wouldn't say he was "no poet" but I wasn't very
impressed either.
>
>
--Stephanie
Blasphemer!!!
Sorry,
I let my instincts take over there...
Actually,
I wasn't blown away by JK's poetry at first, but then I HEARD
them
and I was completely blown away. His poems are meant for the ear,
so try
reading them aloud, they're much better when they're heard.
I also
find it curious that Felinghetti preferred JK's spontaneous
prose,
but not so much his poetry. Perhaps the reason he didn't publish
more
Kerouac was because Lawrence is more of a political poet, whereas
Kerouac
was as apolitical as one could get. City Lights did publish
three
JK books in the Pocket Poets series, so the respect for Kerouac is
there,
but all three volumes were published posthumously.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:59:42 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Sorry
listers. I should have predicated this post with:
>
>Because
of the obvious Beatness of the Dali Lama and the seeming Beat
>attitude
of the people of Tibet I was wondering: Why was a war fought to
>restore
Kuwait's independence, but nothing done to restore Tibet's
>independence.
>
Well...
Here is
something we should all remember or learn or be aware of.
In the
1950's the "evil CIA" was
supporteding the dalai lama and the
people
of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with the
help of
the CIA until that paragon of virtue Jonhn F. Kennedy said no more
help to
the Tibetans).
At the
same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was trumpteting
and
advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
with
them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied them
due to
their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
region.
Strange
how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet whereas
as the
one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people trying to
help
the Tibetans.
>Obviously
there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
>to
ours, but what else? Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights
>preducated
on the power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese
>territory
in the recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English
>military
officer drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
>
>Was
it a case of little religion vs big oil?
>
>Sure
BEATS me.
>
>j
grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:54:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Mime-Version:
1.0
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To my
mind, there isn't much difference between good prose and good poetr=
y.=0ABoth
do the same thing: create images you can feel. I'm moved by Buk=
owski,=0ARoethke,
Ferlinghetti, Plath, Frost, Whitman, Shakespeare, e.e. =
cummings--all=0Afor
different reasons, stylewise, but for the same end: t=
he
pictures or=0Afeelings they create.=0A=0AMy first responses to Kerouac=
's
poetry, which came in the 70's with Mexico=0ACity Blues, were that he =
should
stick to prose. But later readings, as I got=0Aolder (and, I belie=
ve,
gained a deeper understanding and appreciation of Life,=0Aincluding a=
ll its
joys and sorrows) hit me like a ton of anything you want to=0Aname=
.
Reading his stuff aloud with a bold voice (not like these stupid=0Aaffe=
ctations
one hears in a variety of readings, which I loathe) makes them=
=0Acome
alive even more. And it seems he always sticks in one phrase that=
is just=0Akiller, something that brings it
all home, makes me wonder and=
wander off into=0Aa little vision.=0A=0AIt's
only been lately I've been =
able to
FEEL what a genius he had for poetry.=0AMaybe in time, that feeli=
ng will
come to others who don't have the patience or=0Aunderstanding for=
him and his life.=0A=0ANow that I'm getting
to be "his age," meaning, th=
e age
when he died, I look=0Aback at things he wrote years earlier and th=
ink of
my own mortality, and his.=0AThis is the poem that's been haunting=
me lately:=0A=0ASomeday you'll be
lying=0Athere in a nice trance=0Aand s=
uddenly
a hot=0Asoapy brush will be =0Aapplied to your face=0A=97It'll be=
unwelcome=0A=97someday the=0Aundertaker will
shave you=0A=0ANuff said.=
=0AMD=0A
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:39:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Discuss
this one hour from now on Kerochat!
The
topic tonight is Visions of Cody but that is basically a starting
point....VOC
is a poem, "only pages long"...discuss the merits of this. Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Click
on the link for The Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room
It will
take you to Talk Cit, put in your nickname, (we suggest loading in
the
"lite" version, and it will be all set. Just type inand hit Enter.
or, use your IRC, go to
www.talkcity.com
6667
#Kerochat See ya there! Paul....
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:15:06 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
MIME-Version:
1.0
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IDDHI
wrote:
>
>
It's only been lately I've been able to FEEL what a genius he had for >
poetry.
>
Maybe in time, that feeling will come to others who don't have the >
patience
or understanding for him and his life.
I hope,
that in time, when I will have the patience and understanding,
I won't
be sounding as smug as you are.
Now you
see me, Now you don't. It's been grand
folks.
Thomas Van Moortel
(down & out with
only one solution)
Listen:
there's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go!
- e. e. Cummings
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 18:34:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a
message dated 18-Jan-98 3:26:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
writes:
<<
Now you see me, Now you don't. It's
been grand folks. >>
I
wasn't making any condemnation of you or anyone Thomas, but remembering how
I was
when I first read MCB and had no patience and understanding. But
interestingly
enough, lack of patience and understanding on your part with my
point
of view seems to be drawing a big underline under it.
Maybe
if you try to understand what I was saying (about myself) and have a
little
patience (you wasted no time in firing off that response), you won't
have to
go away mad.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:00:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To:
<v03110702b0e8180f0d91@[156.46.222.45]>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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At
03:48 PM 1/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>With
the comments on the list about the Gulf War I wondered if anyone could
>explain
why a war was fought to restore Kuwait's independence, but nothing
>was
done to restore Tibet's independence.
>
>Obviously
there is the oil and an Iraq army that is technologicaly inferior
>to
us, but what else. Is it as flagrant a denial of human rights preducated
>on
the power of big oil as it apaears, or was Tibet Chinese territory in
>the
recent past, as Kuwait was part of Iraq until an English military
>officer
drew that historic "Line in the Sand."
>
>Sure
BEATS me.
>
>j
grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
>
Everytime
I see another movie about Tibet, and I've seen two and am
threatened
by the new Scorcese, I get angry. Its
cold war jive to be
concerned
about the Dalai Lama. Tibet is more
primitive and backward
than
China was when it took them over in 1950.
The only reason this
primitive
monarch is lionized here, is so that we can get in a jab
at that
old dabil communism, and tyranny. But
the Dalai Lama would
be
running a tyranny of his own, if he was still in charge in Tibet.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 16:04:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
to my
mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
English
like no one before or sense. the
images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
are
amazing. i can understand someone not
liking his poetry, but i can't
understand
someone saying he's no poet. most of
his prose has a great deal
of
poetic language use.
ciao,
sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From:
IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Sunday, January 18, 1998 3:02 PM
Subject:
Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
To my
mind, there isn't much difference between good prose and good poetry.
Both do
the same thing: create images you can feel. I'm moved by Bukowski,
Roethke,
Ferlinghetti, Plath, Frost, Whitman, Shakespeare, e.e.
cummings--all
for
different reasons, stylewise, but for the same end: the pictures or
feelings
they create.
My
first responses to Kerouac's poetry, which came in the 70's with Mexico
City
Blues, were that he should stick to prose. But later readings, as I got
older
(and, I believe, gained a deeper understanding and appreciation of
Life,
including
all its joys and sorrows) hit me like a ton of anything you want
to
name.
Reading his stuff aloud with a bold voice (not like these stupid
affectations
one hears in a variety of readings, which I loathe) makes them
come
alive even more. And it seems he always sticks in one phrase that is
just
killer,
something that brings it all home, makes me wonder and wander off
into
a
little vision.
It's
only been lately I've been able to FEEL what a genius he had for
poetry.
Maybe
in time, that feeling will come to others who don't have the patience
or
understanding
for him and his life.
Now
that I'm getting to be "his age," meaning, the age when he died, I
look
back at
things he wrote years earlier and think of my own mortality, and
his.
This is
the poem that's been haunting me lately:
Someday
you'll be lying
there
in a nice trance
and
suddenly a hot
soapy
brush will be
applied
to your face
It'll be unwelcome
someday the
undertaker
will shave you
Nuff
said.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:26:28 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <34C28CFA.24E@skynet.be>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jeez,
guy, I and several others were only disagreeing with your opinion!
No need
to take your ball and go home! The whole point of a listserve is
to
trade ideas, agree, disagree, learn from each other... oh, wait,
excuse
me, am I being smug? --Sara
> I
hope, that in time, when I will have the patience and understanding,
> I
won't be sounding as smug as you are.
>
>
Now you see me, Now you don't. It's
been grand folks.
>
>
Thomas Van Moortel
> (down & out with
>
only one solution)
>
>
Listen: there's a hell of a good universe next door, let's go!
>
- e. e. Cummings
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:30:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To:
<094ee0007001318UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well
said!!! I totally agree. Kerouac took a language that so many across
the
world do not regard as beautiful and showed everyone just how
beautiful
it can be. --Sara
On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, sherri wrote:
> to
my mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
>
English like no one before or sense.
the images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
>
are amazing. i can understand someone
not liking his poetry, but i can't
>
understand someone saying he's no poet.
most of his prose has a great deal
> of
poetic language use.
>
>
ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:49:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Content-type:
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I'm not
an expert, but it is well known that the CIA provided supplies (arms,
other)
to Tibetan gurallas under the Eisenhower administration, into the
Kennedy
administration. The Dali Lama fled
Tibet in 1959. The program was
stopped
in the early sixties by Kennedy, who heeded advice from John Kenneth
Galbrath
(the economist) who was ambassador to India, under Kennedy.
It
would have been utterly impossible for the US to attempt any sort of formal
military
assistance to Tibet - not that the US was that committed to Tibet
anyway.
I'm
second to none in admiration of the Dalai Lama and the justice of his
cause. However, it would not have been realistic
for the US to have
intervened
militarily in Tibet. There is scarcely
another place on earth
where
it would have been more impractical for the US to fight. China's
takeover
of Tibet was, and is, an example of naked agression and genocide.
Nonviolence
is the path toward a free Tibet.
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 20:05:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Content-type:
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7bit
Mike
Rice would do well to read a little bit of the Dalai Llama's writings.
He is
in the tradition of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. The Nobel Peace
Prize
was awarded to the Dalai Lama because of his nonviolence, not because of
anything
to do with the cold war.
Genocide
is wrong. That is exactly the policy,
the evil, of what the Chinese
have
done to the people of Tibet. Hitler was
a great "modernizer" too but he
does
not get a lot of credit with the people who died in the death camps.
Wake up
- there were wrongs done on both sides of the cold war.
As for
Allen Ginsberg - it is also a matter of fact that he was kicked out of
both
communist Cuba and communist Czechoslovakia due to his contacts with
human
rights advocates. And when did he ever
write on behalf of the "Chinese
line"
- only in your imagination?
Howard
Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:15:55 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
MIME-Version:
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TKQ
wrote:
>
>
Discuss this one hour from now on Kerochat!
>
The topic tonight is Visions of Cody but that is basically a starting
>
point....VOC is a poem, "only pages long"...discuss the merits of
this. Go to:
>
>
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
>
Click on the link for The Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room
> It
will take you to Talk Cit, put in your nickname, (we suggest loading in
>
the "lite" version, and it will be all set. Just type inand hit
Enter.
>
> or, use your IRC, go to
>
>
www.talkcity.com
>
6667
>
#Kerochat See ya there!
Paul....
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
looking
forward to seeing others at this Kerochat thang now or sooner.
david
rhaesa (race23)
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:09:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: existentialism & beats
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Levi
Asher wrote:
>
> Hi
everybody, sorry for the delayed response on this beats/
>
existentialism thread, and my absence.
I've been travelling --
>
glad to come back and see this list is as weird as ever.
>
>
About the connection between Beat lit and existentialist
>
philosophy, I think there is a strong one, but it's difficult
> to
state this cleanly because, unlike the Beat writers who
>
were a small and cohesive group of people that hung out
>
together, the so-called existentialist philosophers spanned
>
two centuries, various European countries, and virtually
>
every belief system.
i think
that Rinaldo's list of Beats makes the comparison a bit easier
than
the more narrow view suggested on entry to this listserve. Most
folks
in both camps didn't care for the label.
>
>
But Soren Kierkegaard is usually considered the first
>
existentialist philosopher, and I've always seen Kierkegaard
>
and Kerouac as kindred spirits, especially in their
>
wranglings with religion.
SK is
usually seen as a first but i've always found Socrates to be quite
the
existentialist and chronologically he comes before SK. (I got a
copy of
SK's The Concept of Dread awhile back and wonder if anyone knows
whether
it is worth cracking)
Both of them also seemed to
>
share a certain innocence and vulnerability in their
>
writings and in their life stories.
yes.
>
> I
also think that there's a branch of existentialism that's
>
very compatible with Buddhist thought.
Definitely. William Barrett reports a conversation in
which Heidegger
is
reading Suzuki and MH says "if i understand this, it is what i've
been
trying to say in all my writings".
Certainly MH is in a category
which
requires understanding philosophy poetically.
For
instance
>
the book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" looks
>
like it's about Zen philosophy, but the actual philosophical
>
argument it presents is pure 100% textbook existentialism,
>
with bits and pieces of Zen thrown in for flavor.
by my
take there is very little Zen in the book and RP is explicit that
the
title is just for show. My favorite
thing about the book is a
different
strand seems to pop out each time i read it.
I'd
>
definitely say that this book represents a good example
> of
where Buddhism, existentialism and Beat writing
>
come together.
it was
my favorite book for a long time. i
still go back to it for
insights
from time to time. some of my early
crackups parallel RP's
only in
a Toyota <grin>
>
>
Sorry for the essay answer, I used to be a philosophy major
>
and I still miss it sometimes.
in the
words of Oliver Twist "more please".
Levi you can fill up the
bandwidth
anytime IMHO.
david
rhaesa (race)
salina,
Kansas
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------
> |
Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
>
| |
>
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
>
| (the beat literature web
site) |
>
| |
>
| "Coffeehouse: Writings
from the Web" |
>
| (a real book, like on
paper) |
>
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
>
| |
>
|
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*
|
>
| |
> |
"Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
>
|
-- Joni Mitchell |
>
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:17:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
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Leon
Tabory wrote:
>
>
Ever thought of writing "In a Nutshell" books? Wonderful job!
i lost
the original on this.
>
>
leon
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 11:03 AM
>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
>
>
>The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is
"existence
>
>precedes essence;" we are born
into the world a zero and create our own
>
>being from there. It presupposes
absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
>
>Infinite creative possibilities.
but the
important element it seems to me is the individual
responsibility
involved in choice.
Camus
and Sartre are good places to go
>
>for prose realization of the philosophy.
I
agree. Just started Camus' Exile and
the Kingdom and Sartre's Sartre
By
Himself since the holidays. The
autobiographicalish interviews of
the
latter are very interesting. Living in
contradiction seems an
important
theme. Perhaps Jack never found a
comfort level in that state
of
being/becoming.
It's
less explicit in Kerouac
>
>because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty pushes
>
>toward the idea.
i've
never even thought of reading Dean as uberman.
Hmm. a different
spin
indeed.
The
obstacle to all of this is culture of course and
>
>according to Burroughs language itself, because of it, consciousness is
>
>prerecorded.
In this
sense does language in the form of pre-recording precede both
existence
and essence?
Therefore
existentialism is a ruse performed by deterministic
>
>language which he tried to undermine via cutups, etc.
Do his
experiments flirt with undermining the notion that essence
follows
existence?
>
>
>
>That's an oversimplified nutshell of the issues.
>
>
>
>Preston
>
>
>
>>At 07:08 AM 1/5/88 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>>Does anyone know anything about existentialism and it's importance
in
>
>>>the Beat movement and culture?
If so, please explain and help me out
>
>>>here. Thanks!
>
>>>
>
>>>*jodie*
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>>I don't remember where I read it (it was a blurb), William Burroughs
>
called
>
>>Kerouac America's greatest existentialist writer.
>
>
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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:29:19 PST
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait &
China-Tibet
Content-Type:
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I'll
just say that I will continue to boycott the chinese (it isn't
easy,
either), fear the cia, hold immense respect for Ginsberg, and
admire
the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan people..
I will
also continue to dislike the Iraqi's, all though I will disagree
with
any hostile actions against them... there are better ways to deal
with
conflict. And who knows how much of
what I am being "informed"
about
the situation in the Middle East is propoganda anyway.
-Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc. *
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
*
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Well...
>
>Here
is something we should all remember or learn or be aware of.
>
>In
the 1950's the "evil CIA" was
supporteding the dalai lama and the
>people
of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with
the
>help
of the CIA until that paragon of virtue Jonhn F. Kennedy said no
more
>help
to the Tibetans).
>
>At
the same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was
trumpteting
>and
advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
>with
them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied
them
>due
to their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
>region.
>
>Strange
how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet
whereas
>as
the one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people
trying
to
>help
the Tibetans.
>
>
______________________________________________________
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Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 21:28:27 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
>
> Timothy K. Gallagher wrote:
>
>
>
> Kerouac wrote number three (on page three of SoD) as "The Supression
of
>
> Suffering can be Acheived".
>
>
>
> How does that differ from "until now" and what it infers?
>
>
>
> (As a side note that may be more important than just a side, Lei
>
> Asher's
>
> Lit Kicks site has the 3rd as "3.Suffering can only cease if desire
>
> ceases
>
> " slightly different than
Kerouac's.
>
>
>
> The True Buddha School [http://www.tbsn.org] calls it "Noble Truth of
>
> the Path that leads to the Extinction of Suffering")
>
>
Thanks for paraphrasing the original question and answers for those of us
>
who lost the messages. I would also say
the "until now" is the most
>
important part of the verse and refers to what has just happened, the
>
coming of Christ, his teachings, death, resurrection. It also seems to
>
refer to the belief that with the first man, Adam, came the fall and the
>
beginning of suffering. Christ's sacrifice
of himself through suffering
>
restored unity with God, thus ending suffering. I, however, don't read
>
this as meaning that human beings never suffer, or those that believe in
>
Christ never suffer. My interpretation
is that Christ's teachings are a
>
path through suffering not that different from the "Noble Truth of the
>
Path that leads to the extinction of suffering." As the next verse of
>
Romans goes on to say, "...even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
>
waiting for the adoption, that is, the redemption of our body." It seems
> to
me that some people interpret Christianity as "looking outward" and
>
Buddhism as "looking inward," which puts the two at odds. Both are about
> a
path or journey towards truth, towards a condition where dualities
>
don't exist. They both use different
mythologies to arrive at the same
>
place. It seems to me that in both,
becoming one with the source of
>
life, leads beyond suffering. I get the
feeling in reading Kerouac that
> in
his search for meaning, he was constantly asking, 'What is the meaning
> of
existence? Why do people suffer?"
but rather than looking within
>
using either the path of Catholicism or Buddhism, he thought the answer
>
would just be handed to him at some point.
> DC
"Until
Now" is a crucial portion of the quotation from Paul's Letter to
the
Romans. It creates the sense of time
that is reflected in the
christian
notions (according to Paul) of the future in light of grace.
Time
functions historically and spiritually and suffering exists within
historical
time from Genesis 3 (or other myths of the beginnings) to the
present
-- but do not necessarily extend into the future. The suffering
of the
spirit from a fall from grace is replaced (according to Paul) by
the
Last Days and so the timeline for spirit resides in grace which
would
be the point before the fall into suffering historical time to
include
the Now of Until Now in Grace. The
future is not relevant.
This
notion of temporality is difficult for many Westerners to grasp -
we are
so heavily couched in historical chronology.
The
Until Now also reflects something of the notion of expectancy and
hope
within notions of Grace. In the realms
of the physical world there
is a
huge gap between expectancy and hope - and riots in the 60s are a
reflection
of these differences. But in the realm
of grace --
functioning
outside historical time and more inside of eternity itself
these
notions of expectancy and hope of relief from suffering melt
together
in the Now of Paul's commentary.
sorry
for the theology lecture, i used to be a preacher's kid. <grin>
david
rhaesa (race)
salina,
Kansas
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Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:27:42 EST
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From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain
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kurt
wrote a song about the 'dharma bums'
called 'beans' beans beans
beans/jackie
ate some beans/in the woods naked and he was happy drinking wine
or
somthing like that. he also started
listening to ledbelly after reading
somthing
where burroughs said people should forget rock and roll and
listen
to
ledbelly and after a show in san
fransico chris novoselic went to
city
lights to buy some beat books and
that's all i know about that i'm
reading
the 'come as you are' book story and that's what it said
chad
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 02:36:13 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
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Subject: Re: existentialism & beats
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"We
must love life more than the meaning of it."
Alyosha
in _The Brothers Karamazov_ - Fyodor Dostoevsky
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:25:56 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait &
China-Tibet
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i feel
competent to say something here. why should you not like the
iraqi's?
how many of them do you know?
i come
from serbia. how many good things have you heard about serbs? not
many, i
am sure. and i never noticed that either me or my friends are
savages
we are thought to be. we don't slaughter innocent people, not
where i
live at least...
so:
And who knows how much of what I am being
"informed"
>
about the situation in the Middle East is propoganda anyway.
this
sentence is probably true and you should aways keep in mind that
most of
what the media tell you is pure brainwashing. we have a saying
here:
turn
off your televisions, turn on your heads.
ksenija
>
>
-Greg
>
> *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> *
Ginsberg etc. *
> *
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
> *
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
> *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
>Well...
>
>
>
>Here is something we should all remember or learn or be aware of.
>
>
>
>In the 1950's the "evil
CIA" was supporteding the dalai lama and the
>
>people of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with
> the
>
>help of the CIA until that paragon of virtue Jonhn F. Kennedy said no
>
more
>
>help to the Tibetans).
>
>
>
>At the same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was
>
trumpteting
>
>and advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
>
>with them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied
>
them
>
>due to their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
>
>region.
>
>
>
>Strange how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet
>
whereas
>
>as the one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people
>
trying to
>
>help the Tibetans.
>
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 03:57:39 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.95q.980115121858.11704B-100000@landen.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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On Thu,
15 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> > In all my reading of Burroughs, I've never run across anything that
>
> > made me think, "Gee, that sounds just like Wittgenstein."
So apart
>
> > from the explicit reference in the intro to Naked Lunch, I don't
think
>
> > Burroughs ever had much to say about W.
>
>
There is an explicit reference that links (not attributes) Wittgenstein to
>
Burroughs' idea of the pre-recorded universe in The Ticket that Exploded:
>
>
"Wittgenstein said: 'No proposition can contain itself as an argument' =
>
The only thing _not_ prerecorded in a prerecorded universe is the
>
prerecording itself which is to say _any_ recording that contains a random
>
factor" (TTE 166).
>
> To
disagree with Jeff above, the influence of Wittgenstein on Burroughs'
>
notion of the prerecorded universe makes Wittgenstein instrumental in
>
Burroughs' philosophy and fiction.
Probably
WSB was referring to these passages from the Tractatus:
3.331 From this observation we turn to Russell's 'theory of
types'. It can be seen that Russell
must be wrong, because
he had to mention the meaning of
signs when establishing
the rules for them.
3.332 No proposition can make a statement
about itself, because a
propositional sign cannot be
contained in itself (that is
the whole 'theory of types').
So,
first of all, this idea of a proposition not being able to make a
statement
about itself is not even Wittgenstein's, but Bertrand
Russell's,
and was meant to rule out certain kinds of logical
paradoxes.
And
secondly, it's clear that Wittgenstein was not satisfied with
Russell's
solution, and developed his own, somewhat different
formulation.
(see the next paragraphs in the Tractatus)
So here
is what I think happened: WSB simply used this phrase as a
point
of departure for his own thoughts. I do this a lot myself;
reading
something, a sentence or turn of phrase sends me off on a long
train
of thought that ends up having little or nothing to do with the
original
context of whatever I was reading. Wittgenstein's writing
here
was nothing more than an initial impetus for WSB, as far as I
can
tell. It's going too far to say that this idea was "instrumental"
or an
"influence". And of course the whole "film" and
"recording"
terminology
(as well as the reference to "random factors") are
entirely
WSB's own.
> On
Language Games:
>
>
Michael went on to write:
>
>
> Wittgenstein may have been more of an influence, however, in the idea
>
> of language-games. Perhaps Burroughs was a language-gamester akin to
>
> the "trickster guru" Alan Watts wrote about.
>
> I
don't agree with this. When cutting word lines and control lines,
>
Burroughs was not playing games. Although his use of parodic and satiric
>
modes may cast him in the role of trickster for a time, his fight for a
>
non-linguistic freedom was anything but a game.
>
>
Tim Murphy's new book posits that "[Burroughs' work] emerges from the
>
liminal space of literature with a 'plan of living' rather than an
>
endlessly deferred 'participation in language games' or an empty 'love for
>
the world through language' a la John Barth." He makes a pretty convincing
>
argument too, and I'd refer you to him for the rest of it.
>
>
Burroughs was always trying to _do_ something, whether it was cutting
>
control lines, creating retroactive utopias, or getting into space. He was
>
never just a language-gamester.
Everyone
here seems to operating under a misapprehension of what
Wittgenstein
means by a "language game". The phrase is meant to
indicate
an analogy between language and games in the following way:
"There
is no characteristic common to everything we call games....
instead
we find a complicated network of similarities and
relationships
overlapping and crisscrossing....This feature of 'game'
is one
which Wittgenstein believed is shared with language, and this
made it
particularly appropriate to call particular mini-languages
'language-games'.
There were others. Most importantly, even though not
all
games have rules, the function of rules in many games has
similarities
with the function of rules in language. Language-games,
like
games, need have no external goal; they can be autonomous
activities.
But the comparison of language to a game was not meant to
suggest
that language was a pastime, or something trivial: on the
contrary,
it was meant to bring out the connection between the
speaking
of language and non-linguistic activites. Indeed the speaking
of
language is part of a communal activity, a way of living im society
which
W. calls a 'form of life'. It is thru sharing in the playing of
language-games
that language is connected with our life."
(from
Anthony Kenny, _Wittgenstein_, p163)
So
*any* use of language is a language-game. A language-game is not a
trivial
use of language, as opposed to some serious purpose. Whether
you're
playing the same language-game as someone else depends on what
rules you
are following, what goals you have in mind, whether you
share
certain sorts of training in how to use the language and a
shared
history of its use (i.e. a form of life). Of course it's
possible
to switch from one language-game to another, and this is no
doubt
what WSB was trying to do: to shift us from a language-game in
which
language functions as an instrument of control to another game
in
which it does not.
I think
this is probably the most that can be said about WSB from a
Wittgensteinian
perspective. So I stand by my original claim that
there's
really not much to be gained from comparing Wittgenstein &
WSB or
attempting to establish some sort of influence.
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:21:16 PST
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From: Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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*sigh*...
please....
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:25:12 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
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Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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i will in fact e-mail you sara...
its pretty bad when you have to start a
"background" list because the
foreground
one can't stay on topic...
-julian
ps...to keep this post beat related...
i was curious as to whether or not kerouac
approved of "alternate"
sexualities...in
reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
more
than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
meant
to be derogatory or not...
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:29:11 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
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Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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A means
to an end my friend...means to an end...
><LURK
MODE OFF>
><SMILE>
>Just
a thought. . . the continuous
discussion of what should or
shouldn't
>be
discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say
shouldn't
>be
posted. . .
><GRIN>
><CHUCKLE>
>
>Bruce
>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 04:30:33 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
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Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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i
cannot believe this is actually a thread...
>>
when george bush was preisident.
>>
>>
The war was started when
>
>i
was walking up the backstairways of Centennial Hall at Augustana
>College. i'd been following the news fairly carefully
as my big
brother
>was
stationed in the desert.
>
>so
the news of actual warfare as opposed to suntanning lessons struck
me
>harshly. i can't say i really knew where i was for
some moments. then
>a
room of undergraduate debaters was staring at me ... wondering what
>next. a practice debate was scheduled.
>
>i
didn't think twice - go on as planned.
i couldn't have stood to sit
>alone
worrying about my brother on that first night.
work was a decent
>means
to avoid the selfish and sentimental concerns i had for one
>soldier
amidst the many fighting on both sides of whatever the cause
>was.
>
>dbr
>
>
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:05:24 EST
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From: Ferlingh2 <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Biblio
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Dear
Bill, Judy said that you spoke at New
Orleans and knew of an MLA biblio
award
upcoming. If you have an address I
should write to I'd appreciate it.
Thanks. I haven't checked my email in over a week
and it will take me a long
while
to get through it today, I see. Hope I
haven't missed anything
important. Bill Morgan
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:24:01 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
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>Leon
Tabory wrote:
>>
>>
Ever thought of writing "In a Nutshell" books? Wonderful job!
>
>i
lost the original on this.
>>
>>
leon
>>
-----Original Message-----
>>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
>>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>>
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 11:03 AM
>>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
>>
>>
>The cardinal doctrine of existentialism according to Sartre is
"existence
>>
>precedes essence;" we are born
into the world a zero and create our own
>>
>being from there. It presupposes
absolute freedom. Nothing is ordained.
>>
>Infinite creative possibilities.
>
>but
the important element it seems to me is the individual
>responsibility
involved in choice.
Yes,
absolute freedom's price is absolute responsibility; the old cliche
freedom
isn't cheap.
>Camus
and Sartre are good places to go
>>
>for prose realization of the philosophy.
>
>I
agree. Just started Camus' Exile and
the Kingdom and Sartre's Sartre
>By
Himself since the holidays. The
autobiographicalish interviews of
>the
latter are very interesting. Living in
contradiction seems an
>important
theme. Perhaps Jack never found a
comfort level in that state
>of
being/becoming.
That's helpful
understanding. It seems to me
that contradictions
implicit
to the writer -- the private inner life vs the public demands --
were
for Jack irreconcilable; he could never
make effective compromises
perhaps
because he could not forgive himself
for making them.
>It's
less explicit in Kerouac
>>
>because he's so subjective but the Nietzchean uberman Dean Moriarty pushes
>>
>toward the idea.
>
>i've
never even thought of reading Dean as uberman.
Hmm. a different
>spin
indeed.
According
to Nicosia, I think, but it may be in OTR, uberman was Jack's
first thought
when Neil answered the door naked.
>The
obstacle to all of this is culture of course and
>>
>according to Burroughs language itself, because of it, consciousness is
>>
>prerecorded.
>
>In
this sense does language in the form of pre-recording precede both
>existence
and essence?
To the
extent that language was in place before you or I were born, yes.
But
more than that, once we are given existence we do not choose language;
it
chooses us.
>Therefore
existentialism is a ruse performed by deterministic
>>
>language which he tried to undermine via cutups, etc.
>
>Do
his experiments flirt with undermining the notion that essence
>follows
existence?
It
seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
silence
-- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
futile
-- were trying to realize an essence to
their lives rather than
undermine
the principle.
Enjoyed
the comments,
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:00:16 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
<19980119122513.21876.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Many
people have pondered this... I think he was just using the words as
words.
I don't think Kerouac was willing to censor himself in any way, and
would
use whatever words he pleased. He was very good friends with
Ginsberg,
who was openly gay, and there are rumors that he and Neal
Cassady
had a "thing" going at one point... So I think he was just using
the
words for the sound, etc., not as derogatory terms.
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
> its pretty bad when you have to start a
"background" list because the
>
foreground one can't stay on topic...
>
-julian
>
> ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac
approved of "alternate"
>
sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and
"queer"
>
more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>
meant to be derogatory or not...
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:12:17 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait &
China-Tibet
Content-Type:
text/plain
>i
feel competent to say something here. why should you not like the
>iraqi's?
how many of them do you know?
I must
admit my complete blunder on that one. I absolutely should not
have
said that I dislike the Iraqis, I dislike Saddam Hussein because of
the way
he has treated his people and because of his failure to uphold
his end
of the bargain with the UN.
> And who knows how much of what I am being
"informed"
>>
about the situation in the Middle East is propoganda anyway.
What
made me say that is having just seen the new movie about the Dalai
Lama,
'Kundun', I remember scenes of them sitting by radios listening to
Chinese
propoganda/radio broadcasts with the announcer telling the
listeners
how the Tibetan people were joyously welcoming the People's
Liberation
Army. How are we to know that the
situation in the Gulf is
any
different?
>this
sentence is probably true and you should aways keep in mind that
>most
of what the media tell you is pure brainwashing. we have a saying
>here:
>
>turn
off your televisions, turn on your heads.
>
>ksenija
>>
So,
thank you and my apologies for any misinterpretation of what I said.
-Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Ginsberg etc. *
* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
* Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:15:50 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
Content-Type:
text/plain
>
ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i
was curious as to whether or not kerouac approved of "alternate"
>sexualities...in
reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and "queer"
>more
than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>meant
to be derogatory or not...
>
I
believe that toward the end, during the sixties, Ginsberg and Kerouac
often
battled over homosexuality. I don't want to say anymore, because
what I
remember of that is very faint and I don't want to say anything
which
isn't true.
-Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc. *
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
*
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:16:42 -0500
Reply-To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
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Howdy-Ho!
>
One of the responses said that the difference was in the "until now".
>
That
would be me.
> I
appreciate that. With that in mind
then, what is the difference between
>
"until now" of Romans and the third noble truth that says suffering
can be
>
overcome?
There
are several differences. The first and
probably most significant
is that
Christian faith claims that THROUGH the final sacrifice of
Jesus,
mankind is saved from suffering.
Buddhist philosophy emphasizes
a more
personal absolution of suffering through a personal quest of the
absolution
of all the goodies of being a human being... lust, greed,
etc.
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:20:59 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: bitch bitch bitch
Content-Type:
text/plain
Julian:
To be
perfectly frank, your complaining about off-topicness is getting
downright
annoying. The rest of us are trying to
carry on discussions
and
it's really irritating to stumble across four posts in succession
from
you all about how our threads aren't worth the time it takes to
write
them...
I was
disenheartened at first when I saw how wide-ranging the topics
are,
but have since learned how to take advantage of that range and get
something
out of it.
So,
just drop it and I'm sure we'll be able to get back on topic once we
can
quit worrying about whether we are or not.
Thank
you,
Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc. *
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
*
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get Your
Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:31 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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There
is an interview with Jack Kerouac on a 3 CD box set called the Beat
Generation.
It is quite funny. The interviewer obviously doesn't have much of an
idea of
what 'beat' is (referring to the Dharma Bums as 'The Drama Bums' - he
thought
it was a book about theatre critics), and Kerouac is just being friendly
answering
the questions in a very straightforward manner. On the subject of
homosexuality
he seems almost disinterested but adds that there have been many
great
homosexuals and says (quote):
JK: I
could name you names.
Interviewer:
Really? Who?!
JK:
Socrates...Julius Caesar...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:44:33 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Thread Bear
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I am
deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
discussed
on this list. Unfortunately, I am unable to discuss it. At
least
not on the list. At this time. Nonetheless, any discussion as to
whether
non-beat messages should be posted or sent to me privately is
very
important to me. And, in my opinion, warrant extended public
discourse.
Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
another
topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
those
who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
interested
in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
pertaining
to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
the
relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
(Albeit,
beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.
And I
think Jack Kerouac would have agreed with me.
At this
time I think it's important to point out that Mortimer Adler is
NOT
beat, and all but says so in his 1970 book, _The Time of Our Lives_
(newly
reprinted in paperback). This is, as far as I know, the only
mention
of the Beats in any of Dr. Adler's 57 books. (Dr. Adler turned
95 last
month, so let's all wish him a happy birthday - OK, now,
everybody:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MORT!!) If anyone is interested in discussing
the
_fact_ that Dr. Adler is NOT beat, you may e-mail me privately,
although
since we are coming perilously close to beat-related topic,
your
private message to me may become public at anytime. E-mail me if
you
wish to discuss this. If you feel that it doesn't warrant
discussion,
you may wish to start your own thread. Or your own list.
Thread.
Now, we
all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
studio
to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
gave
Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
_politically
naive_. But did you know that the person who appeared as a
guest
on _Firing Line_ more than any other individual was Mortimer
Adler?
Yes! It's true! If this isn't beat-related, I don't know what is.
Here
are some topics I'd like to see discussed:
-
William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
- Jack
Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
Van
Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
and
associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
Doren
of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
- Neal
Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
-
Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
- When,
after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
express
his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
_Touch
football sometime?_.
- In
that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
Review_,
Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
1st
edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
by
Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
Hair
Club For Men commercial. Any others?
I won't
discuss this any furthur.
-JOHN
HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:19:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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John
Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> I
am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
>
discussed on this list. Any others?
>
> I
won't discuss this any furthur.
>
>
-JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
i'm
dying. happy birthday mort! What did Jack write for his
Shakespeare
class from Mort's friend. Don't forget
another Mort was
beat-related
biologically to WSB!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:28:52 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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re:
kerouac's use of the word queer, etc
gee i
hope we're not going to be too politically correct here. kerouac
wrote
in common language, and used the same language as ginsberg
maybe
in the future the literature council will ammend all offending
language
to a more pleasing: 'i was talking to another seeker on the
spiritual
path who, tho a masculine male, enjoyed sucking dicks" and
those
pesky junkies will be 'chemically dependant victims of society'
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:20:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: "Fag" &
"Queer" (was Re: Anniversary
of Gulf War)
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Julian
Ruck wrote:
>
> ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac
approved of "alternate"
>
sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and
"queer"
>
more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>
meant to be derogatory or not...
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
you'll
find the distinction between "fag" and "queer" in WSB's
writings
as well
if memory serves me.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:21:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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Julian
Ruck wrote:
>
> A
means to an end my friend...means to an end...
>
>
><LURK MODE OFF>
>
><SMILE>
>
>Just a thought. . . the continuous
discussion of what should or
>
shouldn't
>
>be discussed here on Beat-L is contributing to what you folks say
>
shouldn't
>
>be posted. . .
>
><GRIN>
>
><CHUCKLE>
>
>
>
>Bruce
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
beware
all -- close reading shows distinctly that Bruce's Lurk Mode is
still
OFF.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:23:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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Julian
Ruck wrote:
>
> i
cannot believe this is actually a thread...
>
i can't
believe you can type <grin>
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:38:06 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
<snip>
and there are rumors that he <kerouac> and Neal
>
Cassady had a "thing" going at one point...
ginsberg
said the weakness of kerouac and cassady's friendship was that
they
could never put down their macho roles and have sex, and thus show
one
another how they really felt. if they'd
had sex it would've been
common
knowledge. i would like to see one
person who knew either one of
them
first hand make this statement.
though
they both had sex with men, they were both straight at heart and
their
primary attraction was to women
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:52:33 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait &
China-Tibet
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there
are reasons why saddam hussien (and elsewhere momar kadaffi) are
still
in power, though i can't tell you why, they're not the kinda guys
i would
place faith in, but then neither are bill clinton, newt
gingrich,
the dali lama or ....ah...it's early and i can't think of the
name of
the chinese premier. the kuwaiti royal
family was not worth the
effort
to defend, and the whole gulf war strikes me as an elaborate ploy
to test
a new generation of hi tech weapons in the sand. yowee. we used
smart
bombs that were marginally successful on a buncha 15 year olds
armed
with wooden practice rifles while the kuwaiti royal family disco'd
the
night away in egypt, then we whine that saddam is testing chemical
weapons,
which we sold him the chemicals for, on humans, when that's
exactly
what our reasons were for staging the war in the first place
off
topic? like ginsberg wasn't a political
activist, like burroughs
wasn't
concerned with the misuse of information/propaganda as
brainwashing
and crowd control, like cassady didn't lie to get out of
the
draft? ok.....
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:54:39 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
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> I
believe that toward the end, during the sixties, Ginsberg and Kerouac
>
often battled over homosexuality. I don't want to say anymore, because
>
what I remember of that is very faint and I don't want to say anything
>
which isn't true.
>
>
-Greg
towards
the end kerouac also said: c'mon allen give me a blowjob, i'm
fat and
old and the girls don't look at me anymore
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:02:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Politically Correct? I think not!
In-Reply-To: <34C31CD0.972@zipcon.com>
MIME-version:
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Tom:
That is decidedly NOT what any of us were saying/proposing. The
question
was not the politcal correctness or incorrectness of the words,
but
rather Kerouacs use of them and what he meant by them, i.e. was he
homophobic
or not. Nobody would be on this list of all places if he/she
were
into "political correctness!" It was merely a lexical, semantic
discussion.
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Tom Christopher wrote:
>
re: kerouac's use of the word queer, etc
>
>
gee i hope we're not going to be too politically correct here. kerouac
>
wrote in common language, and used the same language as ginsberg
>
>
maybe in the future the literature council will ammend all offending
>
language to a more pleasing: 'i was talking to another seeker on the
>
spiritual path who, tho a masculine male, enjoyed sucking dicks" and
>
those pesky junkies will be 'chemically dependant victims of society'
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:09:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: More Kerouac and homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <34C322D8.51FD@zipcon.com>
MIME-version:
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Is that
a direct quote? If so, what's your source? Cuz' that's a damn
funny
quote, if it was actually said. *laughing*
Curious as hell,
Sara
>
>
>
towards the end kerouac also said: c'mon allen give me a blowjob, i'm
>
fat and old and the girls don't look at me anymore
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:12:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Julian
In-Reply-To: <34C322D8.51FD@zipcon.com>
MIME-version:
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Allright,
allright, can we stop ragging on Julian? You must admist, he DID
have a
point... And remember the famous old adage, "Opinions are like
assholes,
everybody has one." *big grin*
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:31:24 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Politically Correct? I think not!
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
Tom: That is decidedly NOT what any of us were saying/proposing. The
>
question was not the politcal correctness or incorrectness of the
words...<snip>...
yeh, i
think i understood the post, i just thought it was kinda
irrelevant. kerouac's behavior and language speak for
themselves, and
after
the fact arm chair quarterbacking is besides the point. i would
suggest
gerry nicosia's memory babe covers the subject pretty
thoroughally,
but i suspect that's what a lot of people (with an
otherwise
self stated attachment to 'scholarship') have against the book
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:34:17 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: More Kerouac and homosexuality
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well,
it's a paraphrase, but pretty close. i
think ginsberg in memory
babe,
but it could be jack's book
Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
> Is
that a direct quote? If so, what's your source? Cuz' that's a damn
>
funny quote, if it was actually said. *laughing*
> Curious as hell,
> Sara
>
>
>
>
>
>
> towards the end kerouac also said: c'mon allen give me a blowjob, i'm
>
> fat and old and the girls don't look at me anymore
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:44:35 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Comments:
To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
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jhasbro@tezcat.com
wrote:
>
>
Tom Christopher wrote:
>
>
>
> i'd like to comment but i'm unclear as to whether to mail you directly
>
> or post here, especially as you won't comment further, so i'll just
>
> start a new thread about comicbooks
>
>
>
Which is precisely my point.
>
>
-jwh
well,
cassady was called both superman and the fastest man alive, which
is what
the flash is known as.
superman
can fly faster than the flash, but the flash can run faster
than
superman, but it took phillip whalen with his 'secret buddhist
powers
of concentration' to pull the dent out of the bumper of hitlers
staff
car when cassady couldn't, so the question is: is phillip whalen
secretly
thor, because it's well known only a god is as powerful as
superman
(well, the old superman, not the new superman), except for
maybe
the hulk.
gotta
go recharge my power ring.....
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:44:05 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Julian
Content-Type:
text/plain
>Allright,
allright, can we stop ragging on Julian? You must admist, he
DID
>have
a point...
I will
wholeheartedly agree with the fact that he had a point, it was a
very
good point... It was just very annoying to get 12 messages from the
list
and have six of them be from Julian pissing and moaning about the
off-topicness
of the other posts.
And
remember the famous old adage, "Opinions are like
>assholes,
everybody has one." *big grin*
> --Sara
A big
grin here, also... Let's just drop it.
-Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc. *
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
*
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:48:22 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
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>It
seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
>silence
-- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
>futile
-- were trying to realize an essence to
their lives rather than
>undermine
the principle.
Silence
futile? Didn't Buckminster Fuller, for one example, unlock the
doors
to his creative perception by clearing
his head of language through
long
lasting silence?
leon
>
>Enjoyed
the comments,
>
>Preston
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:28:11 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Hey!
I feel that Kerouac was a better
prose writer than poet- but to
dismiss
him poetically on the basis of reading a few poems is absurd! Mexico
City
Blues is an incredible work of poetry- as is the Frisco book.
Stephanie- you need to give him an
honest and intense read. You will be
glad
you did- maybe.
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:48:30 -0400
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
Mime-Version:
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>>It
seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
>>silence
-- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
>>futile
-- were trying to realize an essence to
their lives rather than
>>undermine
the principle.
>
>Silence
futile? Didn't Buckminster Fuller, for one example, unlock the
>doors
to his creative perception by clearing
his head of language through
>long
lasting silence?
>
>leon
I don't
know, but maybe silence over time leaves the mind saturations of
images,
sounds, smells . . . alone, we top talking even to ourselves.
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:43:46 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
Comments:
To: cmdumond@ehc.edu
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Chris
Dumond wrote:
>
> Mr
Rhaesa...
call me
David. my brother Jim is on Beat-L too
so it could get
confusing
for him (even though this is backchannel).
I don't
disagree with a single thing you've written!
amazing!?!?!?!?!!
>
While I don't consider myself a firm believer in the Christian faith, I
>
was raised in it and I totally agree with you.
I was just honing in on
>
the "until now" part and would have to say that while grace is
eternal,
>
the sacrifice of Christ refers to a specific occaision -- the occaision
> to
which Paul refers in his letter to Rome.
i
pulled out my Langes commentary on the Holy Scriptures for Letters to
Rome
and read a bit. I don't think that
"until Now" should be
considered
as the crucifixion or resurrection per se.
The Now is about
the
notion of Time one finds in Grace. It
is important to recall that
in the
Legend of Saul/Paul he had an epiphany "On the Road" in which his
persona
was changed -- not by the crucifixion and resurrection -- but by
an
epiphany of Grace. The notion of
"Until NOW" from Paul's framework
(as
opposed to Saul's) in this whole Legend seems to me to be about how
one experiences
the presence of Time in a state of Grace.
The notion of
Future
is erased and replaced by Faith and Belief in the Grace of God.
I'm not
certain that this perspective of christian theology is what Jack
was
taught because i have little experience in Roman Catholic theology.
Ironically,
my main interactions with Catholic theology has been
encounters
with fellow patients in mental wards over the years.
It
seems that the ideas of Guilt prominent in Catholic experience are
erased
by the ideas of Grace in the messages of Paul to the Romans and
others. Funny, my Pop is re-reading Barclay's
commentaries on Paul's
Letters
lately while this thread is jumping up on Beat-L. And it seems
to me
that it is relevant to the study of Kerouacian literature. It is
integral
to an understanding of Jack's meanings that an examination of
his
roman Catholic theological upbringing be incorporated more than has
been
done to this point.
dbr
>
>
Chris
>
>
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>
>
> Chris Dumond wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Howdy-Ho!
>
> >
>
> > > One of the responses said that the difference was in the
"until now".
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > That would be me.
>
> >
>
> > > I appreciate that. With
that in mind then, what is the difference
between
>
> > > "until now" of Romans and the third noble truth that
says suffering can
be
>
> > > overcome?
>
> >
>
>
>
> i can hardly believe that i am becoming a spokesperson for christian
>
> dogma ... BUT:
>
>
>
> > There are several differences.
The first and probably most significant
>
> > is that Christian faith claims that THROUGH the final sacrifice of
>
> > Jesus, mankind is saved from suffering.
>
>
>
> Christian faith claims mankind and womankind too <grin> are saved
from
>
> suffering through Grace. The final
sacrifice of Jesus as with his life
>
> are a symbolic path - they should not be interpreted to distract from
>
> the basic message of Grace.
>
>
>
> Buddhist philosophy emphasizes
>
> > a more personal absolution of suffering through a personal quest of
the
>
> > absolution of all the goodies of being a human being... lust, greed,
>
> > etc.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Seems this is represented in the symbolic gestures of the hep-cat jesus
>
> in the wilderness and the dude also said that the Kingdom of God is
>
> within which fits with the buddhist thoughts.
>
>
>
> > Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:51:51 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: back and beat
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hi
everyone. hit hideous snow-freezing rain after 'disembarking' from
amtrack
yesterday at 4
pm
awesome
visit, congenial hosts, and thanks to leon for getting me the
poetry
gig. i had a blast, and it seems people enjoyed it.
thanks
to leon ad ALL west coast beats.
flat on
my back
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:07:48 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Comments:
To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Mime-Version:
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>Now,
we all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
>studio
to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
>gave
Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
>_politically
naive_.
A truer
criticism of Ginsberg has yet been opined.
I saw
that one on the Ginsberg Life and Times movie.
You could tell
Buckley
enjoyed and was impressed with Ginsberg's poem (as was I
watching--he
was very good and these poems are much better understood when
read
aloud--especially by the author himself).
When
Ginsberg paused Buckley began to say "That was a good poem..." or
whatever
but as Buckley began to speak Ginsberg quickly continued and went
on for
a longer time with the poem. After
Ginsberg finished it was then
that
Buckley said (paraphrase) "that was a great poem but your politics are
naive."
I think
that Ginsberg's competitiveness brought it on in that way. In the
little
fights between the squares and hips etc... back in those silly days
the
hips were usually the ones who were the aggressors.
>-
William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
>
Did he
for sure? I do know the quote you are referring to, it was posted
here
not too long ago.
I think
Burroughs thought asceticism was stupid.
In general he thought
religion
and religionists were stupid. In
general he thought just about
everyone
was stupid.
But he
was more Buddhist than many of the other beats in terms of Buddhism
as
practised around the world.
He was
very superstitious and believed in all that stuff.
>-
Jack Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
>Van
Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
>and
associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
>Doren
of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
>
Entertaining
movie but overblown in self importance.
Redford thought it
was
Schindler's List or something.
>-
Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
Did he?
He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
He also
prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV.
But the way Zen and Buddhism
is and
was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>
>-
Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
>
I heard
the name Mortimer Adler before, but who is he?
>-
When, after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
>express
his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
>_Touch
football sometime?_.
>
Understandable. Read Leary's bio Flashbacks to understand
and make the
connection.
>-
In that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
>Review_,
Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
>1st
edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
>by
Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
>Hair
Club For Men commercial. Any others?
>
Those
are probably cardboard look-alikes.
>
>I
won't discuss this any furthur.
I won't
get on that bus.
>
>-JOHN
HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:08:17 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: CIRCULATION
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: back and beat
Welcome
back mc, west coast world class poet!
DB
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:33:40 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: WSB & Buddhism
Comments:
To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
HASBROUCK:>
>- William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
>
>
>
>
Did he for sure? I do know the quote
you are referring to, it was posted
>
here not too long ago.
>
> I
think Burroughs thought asceticism was stupid.
In general he thought
>
religion and religionists were stupid.
In general he thought just about
>
everyone was stupid.
>
>
HASBROUCK
RESPONDS: Upon reflection, I must confess that when I stated
that
WSB thought Buddhism was stupid, I may have lapsed into provocation
(which
was an easy slip, since my posting was obviously satiric). More
accurately,
(here I go again) WSB may have thought that Buddhists were
stupid.
But, seriously, I am thinking of the book _The Burroughs File_,
specifically
his account of when he was compelled by some Buddhist
friends
of Allen's (among them Rinpoche) to go on a _retreat_, (to which
he was
not even supposed to bring a typewriter! He insisted on pen and
paper
at the very least, or the trip was off). In this piece (which I
don't
have in front of me) Bill makes some hilarious remarks about the
fact
that the fire extinguisher in his cabin was underneath the stove,
probably
put there, he says, by _some spaced-out Buddhist_. He then goes
on to
describe the scene in his head of the panicking Buddhist
deparately
reaching through the flames for the fire extinguisher.
Hilarious.
In the
same essay, regarding the Buddhist precept of compassion to all
sentient
beings, Burroughs remarks demurely, _I will not co-exist with
flys._
I've
heard Burroughs called a moralist. I agree. But religious? I think
not.
_If
you're doing business with a religious son-of-a-bitch GET IT IN
WRITING._
...Burroughs audio from _Smack My Crack_ LP, Giorno Poetry
Systems.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:42:08 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Cassady & Zen
Comments:
To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
HASBROUCK>
>- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>
>
Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
> He
also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV.
But the way Zen and Buddhism
> is
and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>
HASBROUCK
RESPONDS: I got that impression from reading _Grace Beats
Karma_,
(one of the great titles of the Beat canon), Neal Cassady's
letters
from prison. I seem to remember him being fairly explicit about
it.
This was the late fifties and Neal was really into Cayce and, of
course,
Catholicism.
Was
Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
of the
TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
It
occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
Kerouac
and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
to
write an essay on this topic?
-JWH
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:47:09 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Existentialism...Silence
In-Reply-To: <v01540b03b0e94dda69b2@[146.201.2.89]>
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>>>It
seems to me that Burroughs along with Bob Kaufman through his vow of
>>>silence
-- perhaps the greatest refusal, the purist rebellion, even if
>>>futile
-- were trying to realize an essence to
their lives rather than
>>>undermine
the principle.
>>
>>Silence
futile? Didn't Buckminster Fuller, for one example, unlock the
>>doors
to his creative perception by clearing
his head of language through
>>long
lasting silence?
>>
>>leon
>
>
>I
don't know, but maybe silence over time leaves the mind saturations of
>images,
sounds, smells . . . alone, we top talking even to ourselves.
>
>Preston
YES, Bob Kaufman, very Beat poet, who, after JFK
was assasinated took a
Buddist
vow of silence and stopped speaking and writing for about ten
years.
In the
Introduction to CRANIAL GUITARS: SELECTED POEMS BY BOB KAUFMAN
(Coffee
House Press, Mpls.MN 1996, Ed. by Gerald Nicosia) David Henderson
wrote:
"In 1973, just after the Vietnam War ended, Bob and Eileen Kaufman
were in
Palo Alto with a group of friends attending an exhibition of
photoghraphs
before visiting Kenneth Patchen's widow, Miriam. Eileen
Kaufman
recalls, "Thee was a little chamber group playing. I was talking to
sme
people and allof the sudden Bob began to recite 'Murder in the
Cathedral'
by Eliot. And that was the first thing he said when he came out
of his
silence. and people were just startled, theyhad their cups halfway
to
their mouths. They hadn't head him for years and years and he started
just
like that. And he said to me, 'All those ships that never sailed/Today
I bring
thm home and let them sail forever.' Themost beautiful poem. I
didn't
even know he was working on it. But from then on he was very lucid.
I never
gavce up on Bob. I knew he'd surprise us all one day and come out
of it
and be as beautiful as ever."
Can I
make a pitch for the book and quote from the back cover?
"CRANIAL
GUITAR, is the only major collection available of the late Bob
Kaufman's
classic works, contains selections from THE ANCIENT RAIN,
SOLITUDES
CROWDED WITH LONELINESS, the entire text of the long-out-of-print
"Golden
Sardine," as well as poems that have never appeared inbook form
including
the last one Kaufman wrote before his death in 1986."
and
"So
much did he embody a French tradition of the poet as outsider, madman,
and
outcast, that in France, Kaufman was called the Black Rimboud."
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:26:44 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: duh
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well my
mail box exploded along weith my address book. hys, contact me
one on
one, so i can be back in the game.
thanks.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:53:34 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait &
China-Tibet
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
> i
remember visiting william after the gulf war broke out. we shared a
>
long discussion about the vile dreams it gave us. I am sorry i don't
>
remember williams, mine was i was falling in an endless dark water and
>
couldn't figure out which direction was up, light shadows of skeletons
>
floated around me. William and i spoke
of sleepless early morning dread
> of
war. It awakens in me again, always aware that war can go global but
>
also local. I have been anti christian
for a long time . I remember i
>
was shocked at the catholic funeral of mike that i attended with william
>
and george kaul. George is also anti
christian but so deaf that he
>
didn't get outraged when the priest was going on. Mike was a suicide.
>
rotten service for me. Discussing it
with william, he grieving over
>
mike, he didn't find the same objections i did with the service. He
>
indicated that it was more to do with mikes family. I was relieved the
>
"pastor" at williams service was tim miller, a good writer, (tim
>
performed bobs and my marriage ceremony, and christened lena), and he is
> an
on the road kind of guy, very very
nontraditional. He has done some
>
very interesting writing work on the waco group (karresh?)and on commune
>
life in america.
>
well this non christian believes in prayer and is praying for peace. I
>
believed there was a man named jesus and he believed in love and he was
>
killed, and everytime someone is born that beleives in love mankind is
>
saved a little.
>
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:15:44 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee"
<donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Comments:
To: Tom Christopher <tkc@zipcon.com>
In-Reply-To: <34C31EF9.57DD@zipcon.com>
MIME-Version:
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>
ginsberg said the weakness of kerouac and cassady's friendship was that
>
they could never put down their macho roles and have sex, and thus show
>
one another how they really felt. if
they'd had sex it would've been
>
common knowledge. i would like to see
one person who knew either one of
>
them first hand make this statement.
But
didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand?
"Giving
me a new idea is like handing a cretin a loaded revolver, but I do
thank
you anyway, bang, bang."
--Philip K. Dick,
letter to a fan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:44:00 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Erratum of sorts (was Gulf
War-Kuwait & China-Tibet)
Mime-Version:
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>Mike
Rice would do well to read a little bit of the Dalai Llama's writings.
>He
is in the tradition of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. The Nobel Peace
>Prize
was awarded to the Dalai Lama because of his nonviolence, not because of
>anything
to do with the cold war.
>
Mike
rice is in good company. The Chinese
Communists have made this a
standard
line in their propaganda. I have heard
it 100's of times. In
fact
Jiang Zemin on his fall visit to these United States (where he was
given a
21 gun salute and the highest honors available to anyone who visits
this
country) said that China going into Tibet and what they did there was
just
like Lincoln freeing the slaves!!.
But
this is not the "erratum"
>As
for Allen Ginsberg - it is also a matter of fact that he was kicked out of
>both
communist Cuba and communist Czechoslovakia due to his contacts with
>human
rights advocates. And when did he ever
write on behalf of the "Chinese
>line"
- only in your imagination?
>
I refer
to this by
>Howard
Park
I think
Howard you wrote it in response to my earlier post which was
<<In
the 1950's the "evil CIA" was
supporteding the dalai lama and the
people
of Tibet (this went on even after the Dalai Lama escaped with the
help of
the CIA until that paragon of virtue John F. Kennedy said no more
help to
the Tibetans).
At the
same time the writer of Moloch Moloch, our own Ginsy was trumpteting
and
advocating the Chinese Communist line that the US should be freinds
with
them and they should have their spot in the UN which was denied them
due to
their actions in Tibet and in general throughout China and the
region.
Strange
how it was Ginsberg who sided with the repressors of Tibet whereas
as the
one's called evil by Ginsy and others were the only people trying to
help
the Tibetans.>>
Concerning
my dreaming I will refer you to page 138 of Journals Early
Fifties,
Early Sixties where in an entry (9/13/60) (a letter to Corso I
believe)
#15 of Ginsberg's pet peeves of what the US govt was doing (or
whatever
this list could be called) was "Bar recognition of China and
Admittance
into the UN".
So he
was complaining about China not getting its' proper place in the UN
and the
US refusal to have diplomatic ties with them and was siding with
that
PRC line.
But the
erratum comes in that I looked at the two Journals, the
aforementioned
and also 54 - 58 and after seeing various entries I think
that my
statement about siding with the repressors was too strong or
simplistic.
He did
in terms of the UN entry question and in terms of support for the
Nationalists
but he did make other entries that make his opinions more
textured.
I don't
have specific references for these but the journals have indexes so
they
can easily be looked up.
One was
he called mao's literature a bunch of garbage and wrote "I refused
to be
brainwashed" (a paraphrase). he
was talking about brainwashed by the
left in
this case where he wouldn't buy the accolades of and non-critical
examination
of the communists. Given his background
he must be given his
due for
this. He did make entries about the
problems of the communist rule
that
would put him at odds with the leftist establishment. (Although how
much in
public he made these things clear I don't know).
Also in
a 1961 entry he does write "China just shat on Tibet". Well, to
continue
with his metaphor by 1961 the Communists had gotten of the pot and
even
finished wiping themselves, but it does indicate he beame aware of
that
situation.
I think
that with Ginsberg's politics we need to remember his spiritual
forefather
Whitman's line about being large and containing multitudes.
And
Howard, your synopsis of the history of US support for Tibet was
succint
and more well done than mine.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:42:21 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Happy Birthday to ....
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1.0
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Edgar
Allen Poe and Janis Joplin
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:06:28 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday three ....
In-Reply-To: <34C3C8BD.2FB@midusa.net>
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>Edgar
Allen Poe and Janis Joplin
>dbr
David,
Don't
forget Lysander Spooner.
This is
also ARTIST AS OUTLAW DAY and the day Thomas Hart Benton died in
Kansas
City
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors
07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:06:16 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <88ae917a.34c3a94d@aol.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
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Who the
hell is Stephanie? The dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
poet"
was some guy named Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
list
because I and several other people suggested that he read Mexico City
Blues,
Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
he
still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was actually rather amusing...:)
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, GTL1951 wrote:
>
Hey!
> I feel that Kerouac was a better
prose writer than poet- but to
>
dismiss him poetically on the basis of reading a few poems is absurd! Mexico
>
City Blues is an incredible work of poetry- as is the Frisco book.
> Stephanie- you need to give him an
honest and intense read. You will be
>
glad you did- maybe.
> GT
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:58:18 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Hello
all,
Thank you, Race, for pointing out that
I've turned off the lurk. . .
let's
just hope I can keep my head above water with the responses.
I think this "Kerouac no poet"
thread is great. The only problem I
have
are the
knee-jerk responses. Sara's sticks out
in my mind most of all
(though
I don't have it here to quote from) as being very emotional. Sure,
poetry
is emotional. . . but where's your
proof of Kerouac's poetical
greatness? It seems that the few who are agreeing with
this thread are at
least
"putting up," while those who have challenged have responded with
little
more than a general tone of "Damn you, Blasphemer."
Don't get me wrong, I love Kerouac's
poetry--probably more so than his
prose. One of the greatest things, I think, about
Jack's poetry is that he
shows
us all that we, too, can be poets.
There's nothing technical to it,
it's
easy to read and digest, even easier to listen to. However, these
things
alone, let's face it, don't make a person a poet.
An
short second-hand anecdote. . . While
in college, a former English
professor
of mine (known hereafter as Rick) planned to give a thesis on
Frank
O'Hara, someone who I think most of us will agree is a poet. When he
discussed
it with his advisor, Rick was told to forget it, that the English
department
did not consider O'Hara a poet, much less a worthy subject of a
thesis.
What's the point I'm trying to make? I guess it comes down to this: in
a world
where things are becoming more relative by the day, the only thing
anyone
can agree on all of them time (it seems) is that nothing can be
agreed
upon. In the end, Rick did give his
thesis on O'Hara and did
remarkably
well, even convinced his professor to take a second look. He
didn't
manage that by simply stating that O'Hara is a great poet simply
because
he said so, or having a crying jag in his professor's office. We,
of all
people, should be open to variances of opinion. . .
Why do <i>you</i> think Jack's
such a great poet?
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:43:18 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: TKQ <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Mime-Version:
1.0
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A
"poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
"know
how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is or
isn't a
"poet." Poetry resides in sincerity and earnest
expression...everything
Kerouac was to his art...you can no more describe
what a
poem is than to define what "art" is. Some universities (UMass Lowell
among
them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
truth
lie? P.
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:06:57 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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In a
message dated 98-01-19 18:09:42 EST, you write:
<<
Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that
purported that Kerouac was "no
poet" was some guy named Thomas who
subsequently got pissed and left the
list because I and several other people
suggested that he read Mexico City
Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and
Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
he still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was
actually rather amusing...:)
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
>>
Oh, hi,
I'm Stephanie. After that guy Thomas said whatever it was he said, I
replied
that although I had read very little of Kerouac's poetry, I was "less
than
impressed" (I think were my exact words.) I find his prose to be a little
more
"poetic" :) I do intend on
finding some of his spoken word (I haven't
actually
*heard* much beat poetry at all), especially since everyone here on
this
list thinks it's so important.
And
yeah, when Thomas left... that was kind of funny. But if you read that
"Nirvana"
post of his, you knew it would be coming. Very very hostile...
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:12:46 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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In a
message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G. Jr.
Lee)
write:
<<
But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
You
mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and Ginsberg
would,
at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I guess is
the
best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that. I'm
not
positive though, so don't quote me on it.
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:05:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Beat-l scope
Recent
postings on what's appropriate to post on Beat-l lead me to
remind
people that posts should relate to the lives and works of Beat
writers,
particularly Kerouac, Burroughs, and Ginsberg.
After all, this
list
was formed to discuss this topic. At
times a thread on people or
issues
not directly related to the beats may develop from an appropriate
post. For example, a post discussing William
Burroughs' influence on
Kurt
Cobain may lead to an exchange about Cobain's life or work; a
discussion
on Kerouac as an existentialist may lead to a broader
discussion
of existentialism. As the focus of
one's post drifts further from
Beat topics, one should think about
backchanneling or continuting the conversa
tion
privately. Listmembers have a right to
expect the conversation on Beat-l
to
focus on the list's stated concerns and complaints about messages that are c
ompletely
off topic are justified, especially when these messages continue for
several
posts. Asking people to remain focused
on Beat-related topics isn't ce
nsorship
but good manners. Of course, such
complaints, as someone pointed out
over
the weekend, tend to be more effective when they are expressed with civili
ty. Let's try to remember to stick to Beat
topics, to reply privately to mess
ages
that aren't of interest to the list as a whole, and to snip or summarize t
hose
long posts rather than reprint them.
Doing this will make Beat-l a better
list for all of us. Bill Gargan, listowner.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:31:04 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Hey
Stephanie
I think you will be very very good
for this list. Get everybody
all
fired up!
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:27:00 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Well Sara
Excuse me all to hell! Guess I came
in late on the thing. Still stand
by what
I wrote. Saw Stephanie as a name at the bottom of one of the posts and
made a
wrong assumption- I guess. Figure the world is still turning tho- and
more
idiots and savants being born every minute,
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:56:33 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
>
poet" was some guy named Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
>
list because I and several other people suggested that he read Mexico City
>
Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
> he
still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was actually rather amusing...:)
Kerouac
hisssself says he writes prose not poetry in one of the tracks
on the
3 CD collection. Who knows why Jack
said that - but he did.
Perhaps
we were too quick to piss all over this Tom cat. (i couldn't
resist
that <grin>)
dbr
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:15:16 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
In-Reply-To: <611f57f1.34c2a6eb@aol.com>
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The
Dalai Llama came from a regime that was not
democratic
before his time, and not afterward. We
only
supported the tyranny of his backward country
because
it was a minor bulwark against communism.
The
Dalai Llama may muse in his writings about whatever
he
likes. His regime was a tyranny, a
feudal system
with
him as a God-figure, a ridiculous little place
that
got a rude taste of the twentieth and maybe three
previous
centuries, when the Chinese Communists swept in.
I
imagine Kennedy stopped helping him because there was
no way
the Dalai Llama and his regime would ever be anything
we
could stomach anyway.
Haille
Selassie was lionized by the non-axis
West
for years because he opposed Mussolini. But Haille
Selassie
was himself a tyrant. The making of
foreign
policy
is a difficult matter for Americans to divine.
One
thing
about it is transparent. The American
Press always
eventually
apes the prevalent point of view in Washington,
lionizing
that view's heroes, and stabbing its villains.
The
latest villain is Saddam Hussein. As
long as he doesn't
go back
to Kuwait, we don't really care what he does.
All this
sword-rattling
going on lately, is just the usual interests
trying
to get something going over there for their own reasons,
and
those reasons are not in the broad interest of the American
people. We didn't care a whit about the Kurds before
we were
ending
the Gulf war and looking for a way to crown ourselves
even
bigger heroes. Help the Kurds, we said,
well we can stop
helping
them anytime. They have never been of
any interest to
us. Neither are the people of Somalia nor
Bosnia. Sentiment
is used
to establish foreign policy with supporting public
opinion,
but behind the scenes there isn't an ounce of sentiment,
the
various actors and players are cold and calculating. And they
should
be. Americans just don't want to admit
that we're not good
guys. We are no better than other powers in the
world, we just can't
admit
it to ourselves publicly.
Mike
Rice
At
08:05 PM 1/18/98 EST, you wrote:
>Mike
Rice would do well to read a little bit of the Dalai Llama's writings.
>He
is in the tradition of Ghandi and Martin Luther King. The Nobel Peace
>Prize
was awarded to the Dalai Lama because of his nonviolence, not
because
of
>anything
to do with the cold war.
>
>Genocide
is wrong. That is exactly the policy,
the evil, of what the Chinese
>have
done to the people of Tibet. Hitler was
a great "modernizer" too but he
>does
not get a lot of credit with the people who died in the death camps.
>Wake
up - there were wrongs done on both sides of the cold war.
>
>As
for Allen Ginsberg - it is also a matter of fact that he was kicked out of
>both
communist Cuba and communist Czechoslovakia due to his contacts with
>human
rights advocates. And when did he ever
write on behalf of the "Chinese
>line"
- only in your imagination?
>
>Howard
Park
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:15:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To:
<094ee0007001318UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com>
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I've
only read On The Road. A jealous Truman
Capote called
it
typing, but it is poetry. Ginsberg
called Jack's writing
poetry. I seem to recall Jack talking about
"Dean, Dean, Dean
that
God Damn Dean,." Years later I
picked up the echoes in it
from
Kipling's Gunga Din. On The Road has a
poetic voice
all the
way through. Especially poetic is the
ecstatic
language
about Dean Moriarty. I always wondered
if Dean's
last
name was dragged out of Sherlock Holmes.
Moriarty was
Holmes'
nemesis, though that wouldn't seem to have anything
to do
with Dean.
Mike
Rice
At
04:04 PM 1/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
>to
my mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
>English
like no one before or sense. the
images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
>are
amazing. i can understand someone not
liking his poetry, but i can't
>understand
someone saying he's no poet. most of
his prose has a great deal
>of
poetic language use.
>
>ciao,
sherri
>-----Original
Message-----
>From:
IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Date:
Sunday, January 18, 1998 3:02 PM
>Subject:
Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
>
>
>To
my mind, there isn't much difference between good prose and good poetry.
>Both
do the same thing: create images you can feel. I'm moved by Bukowski,
>Roethke,
Ferlinghetti, Plath, Frost, Whitman, Shakespeare, e.e.
>cummings--all
>for
different reasons, stylewise, but for the same end: the pictures or
>feelings
they create.
>
>My
first responses to Kerouac's poetry, which came in the 70's with Mexico
>City
Blues, were that he should stick to prose. But later readings, as I got
>older
(and, I believe, gained a deeper understanding and appreciation of
>Life,
>including
all its joys and sorrows) hit me like a ton of anything you want
>to
>name.
Reading his stuff aloud with a bold voice (not like these stupid
>affectations
one hears in a variety of readings, which I loathe) makes them
>come
alive even more. And it seems he always sticks in one phrase that is
>just
>killer,
something that brings it all home, makes me wonder and wander off
>into
>a
little vision.
>
>It's
only been lately I've been able to FEEL what a genius he had for
>poetry.
>Maybe
in time, that feeling will come to others who don't have the patience
>or
>understanding
for him and his life.
>
>Now
that I'm getting to be "his age," meaning, the age when he died, I
look
>back
at things he wrote years earlier and think of my own mortality, and
>his.
>This
is the poem that's been haunting me lately:
>
>Someday
you'll be lying
>there
in a nice trance
>and
suddenly a hot
>soapy
brush will be
>applied
to your face
>
It'll be unwelcome
>
someday the
>undertaker
will shave you
>
>Nuff
said.
>MD
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:11:25 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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TKQ
wrote:
>
> A
"poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
>
"know how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is
or
>
isn't a "poet." Poetry resides in sincerity and earnest
>
expression...everything Kerouac was to his art...
so in
thinking Kerouacianly what is the difference between poetry and
prose? Certainly his prose was and is revered by
fans for sincerity and
earnest
expression. perhaps Jack breaks down
the lines between prose
and
poetry compleatly [aside: only for Allen Ginsberg to piece them back
together
again] but at present i don't understand anything
distinguishing
Jack's talents as a poet from those of his natural
literary
turf - narrative prose.
you can
no more describe
>
what a poem is than to define what "art" is.
And
didn't Jack and Allen try and define what art is until William