showed
them the silliness of their musings? I
believe that a poem or
poet is
perhaps a more definitive term than that of "art". Emerson
wrote
of the poet - should we erase the title of that essay and just
replace
it with "writer"? Of course
not!
Some
universities (UMass Lowell
>
among them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
>
truth lie?
What i
find most fascinating about Jack's writing rests more in
departments
far from the Literature building.
Jack's writings bring
sociology
and cultural studies to LIFE. It is
somewhat easy to
understand
why many Literature departments reject Jack's prose and
poetry
- acceptance requires reworking quite a bit of Literary thought.
Ironically,
(and a friend teaching in Tacoma and i were talking about it
over
thanksgiving in Denver) Jack's influence seems greatest in English
departments
in the teachings of English composition.
Young graduate
students
are asked to read essays by Peter Elbow on "Free Writing" as a
method
of opening student's to innate writing abilities. Elbow's essays
are
interesting and more structured but they derive (it seemed to us)
from
the writing(typing) style [i don't particularly see typing as
derogatory
- ya gotta be damn bright to type it like that] of Jackie
Kerouacky. His essays about writing provide a fine
background to such
approaches
and his narratives emphatically demonstrate that writing
about
LIFE makes for good writing.
It will
be interesting to see -- down the road -- what happens when
these
rather glaring inconsistencies in approaches to reading and
writing
slam into each other in English departments around America.
When
they do, the Beat writers will certainly get more attention and
respect.
dbr
P.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:22:41 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Mime-Version:
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<el
snippo {as per Bill gargan's suggestions>
>
And they
>should
be. Americans just don't want to admit
that we're not good
>guys. We are no better than other powers in the
world, we just can't
>admit
it to ourselves publicly.
>
>Mike
Rice
>
>
Mike
you are all over the board there.
But
your last statement is obviously false as our participation on this
list
and your ability to make your opinions known refute it.
I think
your mistake is to compare the US to perfection rather than to
other
countries.
(And
follow up by me will go to Mike himself.
What he says about Tibet and
feudalism
is not absurd but is quite mistaken in the conlusion or analysis.
Suffice
to say that at this time it is the Dalai Lama clique (to use the
communist
term) that calls for a democratic system in Tibet and the
Communists
that still in 1998 jail and kill folks for calling for this).
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:16:33 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
MIME-Version:
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>
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
> i
pulled out my Langes commentary on the Holy Scriptures for Letters to
>
Rome and read a bit. I don't think that
"until Now" should be
>
considered as the crucifixion or resurrection per se. The Now is about
>
the notion of Time one finds in Grace.
It is important to recall that
> in
the Legend of Saul/Paul he had an epiphany "On the Road" in which
>
his
>
persona was changed -- not by the crucifixion and resurrection -- but
> by
> an
epiphany of Grace. The notion of
"Until NOW" from Paul's framework
>
(as opposed to Saul's) in this whole Legend seems to me to be about how
>
one experiences the presence of Time in a state of Grace. The notion
> of
>
Future is erased and replaced by Faith and Belief in the Grace of God.
>
>
I'm not certain that this perspective of christian theology is what
>
Jack
>
was taught because i have little experience in Roman Catholic theology.
>
Ironically, my main interactions with Catholic theology has been
>
encounters with fellow patients in mental wards over the years.
>
> It
seems that the ideas of Guilt prominent in Catholic experience are
>
erased by the ideas of Grace in the messages of Paul to the Romans and
>
others. Funny, my Pop is re-reading
Barclay's commentaries on Paul's
>
Letters lately while this thread is jumping up on Beat-L. And it seems
> to
me that it is relevant to the study of Kerouacian literature. It is
>
integral to an understanding of Jack's meanings that an examination of
>
his roman Catholic theological upbringing be incorporated more than has
>
been done to this point.
So, has
anyone ever read any articles specific to Kerouac and
Catholicism? I have been told that one of the best
sources for Catholic
interpretation
of scriptures is Jerome Biblical Commentary but I have not
tracked
one down. It would seem to me that
whole idea of grace, which is
present
in every Catholic mass, would eliminate the notion of guilt
entirely. As for time in the "until now,"
somewhat supporting David's
interpretation
is a reference in my Bible from that line to a line, 2
Corinthians:
13, which says, "While we look not at the things which are
seen,
but at the things which are not seen, for the things which are seen
are
temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal." Grace then
is
eternal, suffering is temporal; through grace one experiences eternity
now. Eternity is not a future expectation because
it is beyond time, it
is
timeless.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:55:10 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <01bd252d$bbaee800$1861e2cf@hartman>
MIME-version:
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Bruce:
I think Kerouac is a "great" poet because his poetry is so free,
expressive,
stream-of-consciosness unreserved, unrestrained, irreverent
and
real. What pissed me off was the statement that Kerouac was "no
poet,"
made by
someone who hadn't even ventured to read very much of his poetry.
I
therefore suggested a few works for him to read. That's all. And you
must
admit, stating that Jack Kerouac is "no poet" on a Beat-listserve is
fightin'
words! So sue me, I'm passionate about a LOT of literature from a
lot of
different countries, centuries and periods. Literature will do that
to
you...
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Bruce Hartman wrote:
>
Hello all,
>
> Thank you, Race, for pointing out that
I've turned off the lurk. . .
>
let's just hope I can keep my head above water with the responses.
>
> I think this "Kerouac no poet"
thread is great. The only problem I
have
>
are the knee-jerk responses. Sara's
sticks out in my mind most of all
>
(though I don't have it here to quote from) as being very emotional. Sure,
>
poetry is emotional. . . but where's
your proof of Kerouac's poetical
>
greatness? It seems that the few who
are agreeing with this thread are at
>
least "putting up," while those who have challenged have responded
with
>
little more than a general tone of "Damn you, Blasphemer."
> Don't get me wrong, I love Kerouac's
poetry--probably more so than his
>
prose. One of the greatest things, I
think, about Jack's poetry is that he
>
shows us all that we, too, can be poets.
There's nothing technical to it,
>
it's easy to read and digest, even easier to listen to. However, these
>
things alone, let's face it, don't make a person a poet.
>
> An
short second-hand anecdote. . . While
in college, a former English
>
professor of mine (known hereafter as Rick) planned to give a thesis on
>
Frank O'Hara, someone who I think most of us will agree is a poet. When he
>
discussed it with his advisor, Rick was told to forget it, that the English
>
department did not consider O'Hara a poet, much less a worthy subject of a
>
thesis.
>
> What's the point I'm trying to make? I guess it comes down to this: in
> a
world where things are becoming more relative by the day, the only thing
>
anyone can agree on all of them time (it seems) is that nothing can be
>
agreed upon. In the end, Rick did give
his thesis on O'Hara and did
>
remarkably well, even convinced his professor to take a second look. He
>
didn't manage that by simply stating that O'Hara is a great poet simply
>
because he said so, or having a crying jag in his professor's office. We,
> of
all people, should be open to variances of opinion. . .
> Why do <i>you</i> think
Jack's such a great poet?
>
>
Bruce
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:56:59 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To:
<1.5.4.32.19980119234318.006a4db0@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-version:
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Amen to
that!!! EXACTLY. Well-put, TKQ. Kerouac WAS his art...
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, TKQ wrote:
> A
"poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
>
"know how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is
or
>
isn't a "poet." Poetry resides in sincerity and earnest
>
expression...everything Kerouac was to his art...you can no more describe
>
what a poem is than to define what "art" is. Some universities (UMass
Lowell
>
among them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
>
truth lie? P.
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
>
Henry David Thoreau
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:59:40 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <27234d6a.34c3eaa3@aol.com>
MIME-version:
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Stephanie:
Sorry, the Zucchini thing threw me off.:) Yeah, that guy was an
interesting
one. And poeple say I'M emotional! *grin* He should have known
that
making blind, unfounded statements wouldn't fly too well in here...
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Zucchini4 wrote:
> In
a message dated 98-01-19 18:09:42 EST, you write:
>
>
<<
> Who the hell is Stephanie? The dude that
purported that Kerouac was "no
> poet" was some guy named Thomas who
subsequently got pissed and left the
> list because I and several other people
suggested that he read Mexico City
> Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered Poems and
Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
> he still hated Kerouacs poetry... It was
actually rather amusing...:)
>
> Sara Feustle
>
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio? >>
>
>
Oh, hi, I'm Stephanie. After that guy Thomas said whatever it was he said, I
>
replied that although I had read very little of Kerouac's poetry, I was
"less
>
than impressed" (I think were my exact words.) I find his prose to be a
little
>
more "poetic" :) I do intend
on finding some of his spoken word (I haven't
>
actually *heard* much beat poetry at all), especially since everyone here on
>
this list thinks it's so important.
>
>
And yeah, when Thomas left... that was kind of funny. But if you read that
>
"Nirvana" post of his, you knew it would be coming. Very very
hostile...
>
>
--Stephanie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:03:18 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <7b00f8ed.34c3ec01@aol.com>
MIME-version:
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Omigod,
THAT is priceless...Has anyone else heard that? I would kill to
read
Ginsberg's exact words. *laughing* Oh, to be a fly on the wall....
*laughing
even harder*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Zucchini4 wrote:
> In
a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G. Jr.
>
Lee) write:
>
>
<< But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
>
>
You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and Ginsberg
>
would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I guess is
>
the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that. I'm
>
not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
>
>
--Stephanie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:11:51 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <9eb8057a.34c3ef56@aol.com>
MIME-version:
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"Goofballs
in the wine-- truck goes by." Can't we all just get along? By
the
way, GTL, first of all, be careful who you call an idiot, and second
of all,
if you're going to rip someone in a post that has nothing at all
to do
with the beats, please use his/her personal e-mail address rather
than
cluttering the list with it. *big sloppy kiss*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, GTL1951 wrote:
>
Well Sara
> Excuse me all to hell! Guess I came
in late on the thing. Still stand
> by
what I wrote. Saw Stephanie as a name at the bottom of one of the posts and
>
made a wrong assumption- I guess. Figure the world is still turning tho- and
>
more idiots and savants being born every minute,
> GT
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:44:33 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Thread Bear
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I am
deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
discussed
on this list. Unfortunately, I am unable to discuss it. At
least
not on the list. At this time. Nonetheless, any discussion as to
whether
non-beat messages should be posted or sent to me privately is
very
important to me. And, in my opinion, warrant extended public
discourse.
Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
another
topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
those
who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
interested
in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
pertaining
to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
the
relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
(Albeit,
beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.
And I
think Jack Kerouac would have agreed with me.
At this
time I think it's important to point out that Mortimer Adler is
NOT
beat, and all but says so in his 1970 book, _The Time of Our Lives_
(newly
reprinted in paperback). This is, as far as I know, the only
mention
of the Beats in any of Dr. Adler's 57 books. (Dr. Adler turned
95 last
month, so let's all wish him a happy birthday - OK, now,
everybody:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MORT!!) If anyone is interested in discussing
the
_fact_ that Dr. Adler is NOT beat, you may e-mail me privately,
although
since we are coming perilously close to beat-related topic,
your
private message to me may become public at anytime. E-mail me if
you
wish to discuss this. If you feel that it doesn't warrant
discussion,
you may wish to start your own thread. Or your own list.
Thread.
Now, we
all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
studio
to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
gave
Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
_politically
naive_. But did you know that the person who appeared as a
guest
on _Firing Line_ more than any other individual was Mortimer
Adler?
Yes! It's true! If this isn't beat-related, I don't know what is.
Here
are some topics I'd like to see discussed:
-
William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
- Jack
Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
Van
Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
and
associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
Doren
of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
- Neal
Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
-
Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
- When,
after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
express
his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
_Touch
football sometime?_.
- In
that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
Review_,
Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
1st
edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
by
Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
Hair
Club For Men commercial. Any others?
I won't
discuss this any furthur.
-JOHN
HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
Please
don't break the harmony of this list by mentioning anything
this
interesting again. But if you would be
good enough to send it
to me
privately, I certainly wouldn't object.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:50:55 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice
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Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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John
Hasbrouck wrote:
>
> I
am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
>
discussed on this list. Any others?
>
> I
won't discuss this any furthur.
>
>
-JOHN HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
i'm
dying. happy birthday mort! What did Jack write for his
Shakespeare
class from Mort's friend. Don't forget
another Mort was
beat-related
biologically to WSB!!!
dbr
How
about this: Is Morton Downey Jr. beat?
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:51:44 PST
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From: marie countyman
<mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: back and beat
Content-Type:
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hey db:
once i become even slightly functional i'll have a tape for your
show.
redid a couple including the insomnia cycle and i must say i
kicked
butt.
more
later. i'm currenntly involeved with war with isp. can only pull
down
howtmail.
ps the
observations cars ruled on the train across america. always
wanted
to do it, now that i'm crazy broke and all the rest, i get todo
what i've
always wanted to do.
mc
>From
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>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:08:17 EST
>Reply-To:
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>From:
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>
>Welcome
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>
>DB
>
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=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:53:50 -0500
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From: Bruce Hartman
<the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Paul
(and others),
I assume your comment was aimed back at
me, and even if it wasn't allow
me to
comment. . .
>A
"poet" doesn't have to have a list of credentials (i.e. a degree), or
>"know
how" to do it, nor is there anybody in the right to say who is or
>isn't
a "poet."
I don't believe I ever gave a check list
for deeming someone a poet.
And
your comment about rights, as in the right to say who is or isn't a poet
goes to
prove the final point of my post: All things are relative--or better
yet:
most people think all things are relative (persoanlly, I think there
are
certain inalienable truths, beyond those outlined by TJ and the Boys).
>Poetry
resides in sincerity and earnest
>expression...everything
Kerouac was to his art...you can no more describe
>what
a poem is than to define what "art" is. Some universities (UMass
Lowell
>among
them) don't even think Kerouac is much of a writer. Where does that
>truth
lie?
Funny you mention UMass. . . I believe that's where my professor friend
ran
into the O'Hara naysayers. . . (sound's
like an Irish Punk Band). When
push
comes to shove, I'll agree that Kerouac was indeed a poet of grand
proportion. His methods, and ideas on writing (all
forms) have influenced
most
living poets and authors. God Bless him
for it.
Let's consider why someone would come to a
list like this and
emphatically
state that Kerouac was no poet. My gut
feeling is they were
looking
to start something, but not necessarily a fight. Let's give them
what
they were looking for. . . a decent
discussion based on something more
substantive
than emotional declarations. . .
Sara: I too am a passionate person. . . but I've learned (and I try to
keep
this in mind at all times) that passion without direction is wasted.
Sleep
tight, my beat friends,
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:59:51 -0500
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From: Bruce Hartman
<the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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YES!!!!!!!!!!
>I
would be very
>interested
in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
>pertaining
to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
>the
relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
>(Albeit,
beat-related.)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:32:35 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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Mike
Goddamitt--this
is my nominee for post of the year so far!
James
mike
rice wrote:
> I
am deeply interested in the discussion of what ought or ought not be
>
discussed on this list. Unfortunately, I am unable to discuss it. At
>
least not on the list. At this time. Nonetheless, any discussion as to
>
whether non-beat messages should be posted or sent to me privately is
>
very important to me. And, in my opinion, warrant extended public
>
discourse. Whether or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
>
another topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
>
those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
>
interested in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
>
pertaining to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
>
the relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
>
(Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:44:35 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: WSB bibliography
MIME-version:
1.0
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hey
all,
I was
browsing thru some library catalogs, and was wondering if anyone
here
has ever seen, or knows anything at all about, the following
books:
Garcia-Robles,
Jorge. _La bala perdida: William S. Burroughs en
Mexico, 1949-1952_. (Mexico DF: Ediciones
del Milenio, 1995)
Hetmann,
Frederik. _Dies Land ist unser: die Beat-Poeten William S.
Burroughs, Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac_.
(Munchen: List, 1993)
Vila,
Christian. _William S. Burroughs: le genie empoisonne_.
Monaco: Editions de Rocher/Jean-Paul
Bertrand Editeur, 1992.
Weissner,
Carl. _Burroughs: eine Bild-Biographie_. (Berlin: Nishen,
1994)
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:53:09 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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mike
rice wrote:
>
>
How about this: Is Morton Downey Jr.
beat?
>
>
Mike Rice
hey,
anybody who punches himself out in a public toilet and scrawls a
swastika
on his head is definately beat, but only in a lawrence lipton
kinda
way, besides his dad was a bigband singer, daddy-o
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:49:38 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
In-Reply-To:
<v01510100b0e8e6d96b2f@[128.125.230.191]>
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At
12:07 PM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>Now,
we all know that Kerouac puked in the elevator on his way up to the
>>studio
to appear on Wm. F. Buckley's _Firing Line_, and that Ginsberg
>>gave
Buckley the Evil Eye on live TV when Buckley called Allen
>>_politically
naive_.
>
>A
truer criticism of Ginsberg has yet been opined.
>
>I
saw that one on the Ginsberg Life and Times movie. You could tell
>Buckley
enjoyed and was impressed with Ginsberg's poem (as was I
>watching--he
was very good and these poems are much better understood when
>read
aloud--especially by the author himself).
>
>When
Ginsberg paused Buckley began to say "That was a good poem..." or
>whatever
but as Buckley began to speak Ginsberg quickly continued and went
>on
for a longer time with the poem. After
Ginsberg finished it was then
>that
Buckley said (paraphrase) "that was a great poem but your politics are
>naive."
>
>I
think that Ginsberg's competitiveness brought it on in that way. In the
>little
fights between the squares and hips etc... back in those silly days
>the
hips were usually the ones who were the aggressors.
>
>
>>-
William S. Burroughs thought Buddhism was stupid.
>>
>
>Did
he for sure? I do know the quote
you are referring to, it was posted
>here
not too long ago.
>
>I
think Burroughs thought asceticism was stupid.
In general he thought
>religion
and religionists were stupid. In
general he thought just about
>everyone
was stupid.
>
>But
he was more Buddhist than many of the other beats in terms of Buddhism
>as
practised around the world.
>
>He
was very superstitious and believed in all that stuff.
>
>
>>-
Jack Kerouac aced Mark Van Doren's Shakespeare class at Columbia, and
>>Van
Doren was, apart from being a woefully academic poet, a close friend
>>and
associate of Mortimer Adler, as well as the father of Charles Van
>>Doren
of _Quiz Show_ infamy.
>>
>
>Entertaining
movie but overblown in self importance.
Redford thought it
>was
Schindler's List or something.
>
>>-
Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>
>Did
he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
>He
also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV.
But the way Zen and Buddhism
>is
and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>
>>
>>-
Mortimer Adler called Zen _an aberration_ on live radio.
>>
>
>I
heard the name Mortimer Adler before, but who is he?
>
>
>>-
When, after an LSD experience, Jack Kerouac wrote Timothy Leary to
>>express
his thoughts regarding the drug, he closed the letter with
>>_Touch
football sometime?_.
>>
>
>Understandable. Read Leary's bio Flashbacks to understand
and make the
>connection.
>
>
>>-
In that TV commercial advertising his periodical, _The National
>>Review_,
Wm. F. Buckley talks to the camera while behind him there is a
>>1st
edition set of Britannica's Great Books of the Western World, edited
>>by
Mortimer Adler. There's also a set behind the president/client on the
>>Hair
Club For Men commercial. Any others?
>>
>
>Those
are probably cardboard look-alikes.
>
>
>>
>>I
won't discuss this any furthur.
>
>I
won't get on that bus.
>
>>
>>-JOHN
HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
>
>
Johnny,
You are alright!
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:01:02 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cassady & Zen
Comments:
To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
In-Reply-To: <34C36633.6813@tezcat.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Was
Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
of the
TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
It
occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
Kerouac
and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
to
write an essay on this topic?
-JWH
I would
like to know about Neal and Oral, also.
Might be a screenplay
in
it. Remember Melvin and Howard, the
story of Melvin Dunbar and his
attempt
to horn in on the Howard Hughes legacy.
I see Woody Harrelson
as
Cassady, Woody is turning into a first rate actor, and is going to
be a
large movie star, once people understand him.
We'll have Cassady
show up
at the time Oral makes his statement about God calling him
up to
the big Pulpit in the Sky, unless those donations for the new
hospital
reach Tower of Babel proportions.
And a
Catholic school movie featuring Cassady and Jack as altar boys
going
thru the usual wine-tasting antics, and wheedling embarassing
masturbation
and bed-wetting stories from their friends, in the confessional.
This
film could be made as a genre film. It
wouldn't be true but it could
be
interesting.
Mike
Rice
At
02:42 PM 1/19/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>HASBROUCK>
>- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>>
>>
Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
>>
He also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV.
But the way Zen and Buddhism
>>
is and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>>
>HASBROUCK
RESPONDS: I got that impression from reading _Grace Beats
>Karma_,
(one of the great titles of the Beat canon), Neal Cassady's
>letters
from prison. I seem to remember him being fairly explicit about
>it.
This was the late fifties and Neal was really into Cayce and, of
>course,
Catholicism.
>
>Was
Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
>of
the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>
>It
occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
>Kerouac
and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
>to
write an essay on this topic?
>
>-JWH
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 22:09:44 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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A point
to keep in mind on all of this sort of thing...
A
friend of mine who is a big Ginsberg fan once pointed out to me after
reading
one of the Ginsberg biographies that a great many of Ginsberg's
personal
anecdotes (particularly about noteworthy people) end the same way:
"...and
then we went to bed together."
When
told that Ginsberg claimed that he and Corso had been lovers, Corso
was
said to have laughed, "That Ginzy!
He'll say anything!"
Keep
smiling...
Jym
----------
>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
>
Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:12 PM
>
> In
a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G.
Jr.
>
Lee) write:
>
>
<< But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
>
>
You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and
Ginsberg
>
would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I
guess
is
>
the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that.
I'm
>
not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
>
>
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:35:22 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cassady & Zen
Mime-Version:
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Sounds
like a good pitch Mike, but I got that from memory babe and all it
was was
that cassidy would bow his head and have everyone do likewise when
Oral
prayed on TV as they were watching.
>Was
Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
>of
the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>
>It
occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
>Kerouac
and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
>to
write an essay on this topic?
>
>-JWH
>
>I
would like to know about Neal and Oral, also. Might be a screenplay
>in
it. Remember Melvin and Howard, the
story of Melvin Dunbar and his
>attempt
to horn in on the Howard Hughes legacy.
I see Woody Harrelson
>as
Cassady, Woody is turning into a first rate actor, and is going to
>be
a large movie star, once people understand him. We'll have Cassady
>show
up at the time Oral makes his statement about God calling him
>up
to the big Pulpit in the Sky, unless those donations for the new
>hospital
reach Tower of Babel proportions.
>
>And
a Catholic school movie featuring Cassady and Jack as altar boys
>going
thru the usual wine-tasting antics, and wheedling embarassing
>masturbation
and bed-wetting stories from their friends, in the confessional.
>This
film could be made as a genre film. It
wouldn't be true but it could
>be
interesting.
>
>Mike
Rice
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At
02:42 PM 1/19/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>>>
>>HASBROUCK>
>- Neal Cassady thought Zen was nonsense.
>>>
>>>
Did he? He also believed in Edgar Cayce, so so much for his discernment.
>>>
He also prayed along with Oral Roberts on TV.
But the way Zen and Buddhism
>>>
is and was ofen presented it is a bunch of nonsense.
>>>
>>HASBROUCK
RESPONDS: I got that impression from reading _Grace Beats
>>Karma_,
(one of the great titles of the Beat canon), Neal Cassady's
>>letters
from prison. I seem to remember him being fairly explicit about
>>it.
This was the late fifties and Neal was really into Cayce and, of
>>course,
Catholicism.
>>
>>Was
Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
>>of
the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>>
>>It
occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
>>Kerouac
and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
>>to
write an essay on this topic?
>>
>>-JWH
>>
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:35:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Existentialism...
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 19-Jan-98 11:46:40 AM Pacific Standard Time,
paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU
writes:
<<
I don't know, but maybe silence over time
leaves the mind saturations of
images, sounds, smells . . . alone, we top
talking even to ourselves.
Preston
>>
Preston,
I assume you meant to say "stop" not "top," but I have to
say I've
been
alone forever, and I talk to myself alla time. Go ahead. Try and 'top me.
And
ain't this list been innaresting for last coupla days? A real desire to
dig in
and think and share and LISTEN has triumphed over bickering, ego trips,
people
who take themselves too seriously and fear of being wrong, and I feel
all the
better for it. Probably now I've cursed it, tho, by mentioning it.
Damn.
Special
thanks to John Hasbrouck for the comic relief. It was transcendant.
I'm
goofin.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:37:18 EST
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: back and beat
Content-type:
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Marie,
where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of wondering
how
long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF before.
maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:42:01 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Mime-Version:
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>A
point to keep in mind on all of this sort of thing...
>
>A
friend of mine who is a big Ginsberg fan once pointed out to me after
>reading
one of the Ginsberg biographies that a great many of Ginsberg's
>personal
anecdotes (particularly about noteworthy people) end the same way:
>"...and
then we went to bed together."
>
>When
told that Ginsberg claimed that he and Corso had been lovers, Corso
>was
said to have laughed, "That Ginzy!
He'll say anything!"
>
>Keep
smiling...
>
>Jym
Good
post. I was going to say something to
this effect.
Ginsberg
gave an interview where he said after jack died he went to
memere's
house and convinced her to let him end and he ended up holding her
and
singing Blake's lamb to her.
A
wonderfull image and would be quite a nice ending to their years of enmity.
I had
no reason to disbelieve this anecdote until some fellow on this list
(I
can't remember who--it was year or two ago) pointed out that this
probably
didn't happen and he had good reasons.
So with
Ginsberg maybe life is a stage and fact is as good as fiction.
>
>----------
>>
From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
>>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
>>
Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:12 PM
>>
>>
In a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G.
>Jr.
>>
Lee) write:
>>
>>
<< But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
>>
>>
You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and
>Ginsberg
>>
would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I
>guess
is
>>
the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that.
>I'm
>>
not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
>>
>>
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:28:04 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Mike
wrote:
<<Whether
or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
another
topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
those
who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
interested
in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
pertaining
to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
the
relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
(Albeit,
beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.>>
This
couldn't be better stated by anybody.
right on Mike <laughing
mightily>. ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:43:16 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
you
wrote:
<<superman
can fly faster than the flash, but the flash can run faster
than
superman, but it took phillip whalen with his 'secret buddhist
powers
of concentration' to pull the dent out of the bumper of hitlers
staff
car when cassady couldn't, so the question is: is phillip whalen
secretly
thor, because it's well known only a god is as powerful as
superman
(well, the old superman, not the new superman), except for
maybe
the hulk.>>
YEE
HAA!! keep it comin' you guys. ciao, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:53:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 19-Jan-98 3:11:20 PM Pacific Standard Time,
the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM
(aka Bruce Hartman) writes:
<<
An short second-hand anecdote. . .
While in college, a former English
professor of mine (known hereafter as Rick)
planned to give a thesis on
Frank O'Hara, someone who I think most of us
will agree is a poet. When he
discussed it with his advisor, Rick was told
to forget it, that the English
department did not consider O'Hara a poet,
much less a worthy subject of a
thesis.
>>
Interestingly
enough, I have this bit from a newspaper article about Kerouac
from 10
years ago that touches on this O'Hara thing as well as the
spirituality
thing:
When
[Kerouac] shouted to the poet Frank O'Hara "You're ruining American
poetry,"
O'Hara retorted, "That's more than you could do." When a TV announcer
asked
him, "Tell me, Jack, just exactly what you're looking for," Jack
responded
simply, "I'm waiting for God to show me His face."
At
least, it's interesting to me.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:09:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: back and beat
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IDDHI
wrote:
>
>
Marie, where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of wondering
>
how long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF before.
>
>
maggie
marie
lives in outer mongolia
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:06:38 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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In a
message dated 19-Jan-98 8:46:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
love_singing@MSN.COM
writes:
<<
Mike wrote:
<<Whether or not this discourse ought
to appear on this list is
another topic of discussion which, I feel,
should remain private among
those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In
addition, I would be very
interested in a thread which deals with the
relevance of threads
pertaining to the discussion of threads and
their relative relavance to
the relative suitability of discussion about
the discussion of threads.
(Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what this
list is for.>>
This couldn't be better stated by
anybody. right on Mike <laughing
mightily>. ciao, sherri
>>
Sherri,
James, anyone else who's confused: Marvelous Mike Rice did not author
this.
It was the facetious brilliance of John Hasbrouck, long obscured by
repeated
snippings and respondings. He made me laugh out loud, so I thought
I'd
just make sure he got the credit for that. Hasbrouck, tongue in cheek
comic
relief on What Is Beat and should be discussed on the list. The rest of
us bow
in reverence and snicker into our hands.
Let us
pray we get more stuff like this when we need it. Amen.
Maggie
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:18:53 EST
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From: Subterr7 <Subterr7@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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I think
we need to remember, or think about, two things when discussing the
beats
and homosexuality. First, we will have
problems if we want to have nice
well
define boxes/labels to fit sexual behavior.
Is Kerouac a homosexual who
had
heterosexual experiences or vica versa?
Maybe he is bisexual? Usually,
the
bias of the people toward one sexual orientation shows when these type of
discussions
begin. In this case it "helps"
us choose which stories to
believe. I think evidence shows that Kerouac had
homosexual experiences but
did not
define himself as a homosexual, as Ginsberg, who had heterosexual
experiences,
did.
My second point. The sexual orientation of the beats developed prior to
Stonewall,
the "birth" of gay liberation in the sixties. Thus the
experiences,
and opinions, of the beats about homosexuality are common with
the
era, 40/50's, in which they grew up and became adults. I would think it
would not
be unusual for a young person in Lowell to repress any homosexual
feelings/identity
as maybe Kerouac may have done. Jus
some thoughts,
Jack
Gregorio, Denver
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:30:36 EST
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love
love love
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Has
anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
Seems
like people do everything else.
I'm
serious. Has it ever happened?
Maggie
(unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:38:37 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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At
08:28 PM 1/19/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Mike
wrote:
>
><<Whether
or not this discourse ought to appear on this list is
>another
topic of discussion which, I feel, should remain private among
>those
who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In addition, I would be very
>interested
in a thread which deals with the relevance of threads
>pertaining
to the discussion of threads and their relative relavance to
>the
relative suitability of discussion about the discussion of threads.
>(Albeit,
beat-related.) I think that's what this list is for.>>
>
>This
couldn't be better stated by anybody.
right on Mike <laughing
>mightily>. ciao, sherri
(Sherri,
I would like to take credit for it but those lines were written
by the
below-mentioned author John Hashbrouck, Lurkmeister, a new wit
appearing
with the group. I just added the little
bit on the end. Mike Rice)
>
>I
won't discuss this any furthur.
-JOHN
HASBROUCK, Lurkmeister
Please
don't break the harmony of this list by mentioning anything
this
interesting again. But if you would be
good enough to send it
to me
privately, I certainly wouldn't object.
Mike
Rice
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:43:49 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
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Thanks
for the correction. I've loved John's
posts for years. I wish he would
lurk
less and post more. I'd trade one John
Hasbrouk for 20 Julian Rucks!
James
IDDHI
wrote:
> In
a message dated 19-Jan-98 8:46:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
love_singing@MSN.COM writes:
>
>
<< Mike wrote:
>
> <<Whether or not this discourse ought
to appear on this list is
> another topic of discussion which, I feel,
should remain private among
> those who wish to discuss it. Publicly. In
addition, I would be very
> interested in a thread which deals with the
relevance of threads
> pertaining to the discussion of threads and
their relative relavance to
> the relative suitability of discussion about
the discussion of threads.
> (Albeit, beat-related.) I think that's what
this list is for.>>
>
> This couldn't be better stated by
anybody. right on Mike <laughing
> mightily>. ciao, sherri
>
> >>
>
>
Sherri, James, anyone else who's confused: Marvelous Mike Rice did not author
>
this. It was the facetious brilliance of John Hasbrouck, long obscured by
>
repeated snippings and respondings. He made me laugh out loud, so I thought
>
I'd just make sure he got the credit for that. Hasbrouck, tongue in cheek
>
comic relief on What Is Beat and should be discussed on the list. The rest of
> us
bow in reverence and snicker into our hands.
>
>
Let us pray we get more stuff like this when we need it. Amen.
>
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:48:25 +0000
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love love love
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Well
with all the private posts that have been accidently posted to the
list by
subsequently redfaced posters, I expect a marriage proposal to
appear
soon--except that matrimony isn't very beat.
Certainly have been
some
invitations to share intimacies that in another era would have
required
a marriage proposal.
James
IDDHI
wrote:
>
Has anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
>
>
Seems like people do everything else.
>
>
I'm serious. Has it ever happened?
>
>
Maggie (unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:40:50 -0800
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From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Thread Bear
Maggie
wrote:
<<Sherri,
James, anyone else who's confused: Marvelous Mike Rice did not
author
this.
It was the facetious brilliance of John Hasbrouck, long obscured by
repeated
snippings and respondings.>>
thanks
Maggie. whoever wrote that deserves
major, major kudos. yes and let
us PRAY
for MUCH more of this kind of posting!!!!
ciao,
sherri
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:08:52 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: whats funny
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you
know whats funny, the image of jack and allen, probably stoned after
a party
, jacking each other off is beautiful to me.
My sexuality
issues
aren't the same as many but i never really got "dirty jokes. I
didn't
find the thought of "it" hilarious,
i am also not too keyed into
rather
the boys got the facts straight when they told their tales,
because
i know they didn't. they all three recreated the facts to fit
the
fables that were in their wild and future visions of the now. Yet
they ,
to me kept the tales straight. William
took some strange small
leeway
with the history of typhoid mary that i couldn't figure out why,
but he
was confortable doing it, it served some sort of purpose, like a
magic
oil to the word/idea flow. He also
would crab about the universes
that
both jack and allen created, so close to his yet not. Jack gave
william
a trust fund, probably to represent the support that william
recieved
from his not really understanding family, which might have
reflected
the feeling about family support that tortured jack. One of
the
beauties of allen is his glee in playing bouncy bouncy, ( as we call
it here
at the beat hotel) but i am sure that there was a line that
allen
crossed that reflected the christian thought , to think a deed is
the
commission of the act. so i am sure
that the stories aren't
straight
but they are true.
patricia
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Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:43:35 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
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From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Cassady & Zen
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mike
rice wrote:
>
>
Was Neal actually on TV with Oral Roberts? or did he just pray in front
> of
the TV set like the rest of America? I'm intrigued either way.
>
> It
occurs to me that I'd like to read an analysis of the relationship of
>
Kerouac and Cassady as two Catholic boys. Who on the list will volunteer
> to
write an essay on this topic?
>
>
-JWH
cassady
prayed with his family in their living room along with the tv.
corose
was apparently there at least once and thought it was corney.
somebody
described the prankster trip as being irish catholic macho with
all the
machines and stuff
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 18:29:58 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Beat link? Iraq-Kuwait &
China-Tibet
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>
So, thank you and my apologies for any misinterpretation of what I said.
>
> -Greg
>
i am
sorry if i sounded too harsh, it wasn't my intention. i was just
trying
to point out that you should never take things for granted,
especially
if they come from your tv. (i'm sorry, i just have dislike
television
deeply).
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 01:02:08 -0600
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From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
<199801200409.WAA05912@core0.mx.execpc.com>
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I was
at a poetry reading in Chicago's Old Town 25, maybe 30 years ago.
While
Corso was reading, he, in his own inimitable form of patter, was
directing
comments to and trying to pick up a long-haired blond in the
front
row. Finally, the blond responded by telling Corso that he was a man
not a
woman. Corso, who was quite wasted by liquor or drugs, answered that
this
was not a deterrent because he liked boys too.
Another
thing to bear in mind too is that Burroughs had quite disparaging
things
to say about "faggots." Part of the reason for this can be traced
back to
Whitman. Like Walt, Burroughs and Ginsberg rebelled against the
stereotype
of the limp-wristed, lisping, hair-stylist or
interior-decorator
figure whose most common comment would be "Get her!"
Instead,
like Whitman, they saw the possibility of a robust, manly if you
will,
homosexual rather than the weak, silly, and shrieking "faggot"
Burroughs
so often caricatures.
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Jym Mooney wrote:
> A
point to keep in mind on all of this sort of thing...
>
> A
friend of mine who is a big Ginsberg fan once pointed out to me after
>
reading one of the Ginsberg biographies that a great many of Ginsberg's
>
personal anecdotes (particularly about noteworthy people) end the same way:
>
"...and then we went to bed together."
>
>
When told that Ginsberg claimed that he and Corso had been lovers, Corso
>
was said to have laughed, "That Ginzy!
He'll say anything!"
>
>
Keep smiling...
>
>
Jym
>
>
----------
>
> From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
>
> Date: Monday, January 19, 1998 6:12 PM
>
>
>
> In a message dated 98-01-19 16:19:17 EST, donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU (Donald G.
>
Jr.
>
> Lee) write:
>
>
>
> << But didn't Ginsberg know both of them first hand? >>
>
>
>
> You mean this literally, right? I remember hearing that Kerouac and
>
Ginsberg
>
> would, at the end of a long night of partying, jerk each other off, I
>
guess is
>
> the best way to say it. Actually, I think AG was the one that said that.
>
I'm
>
> not positive though, so don't quote me on it.
>
>
>
> --Stephanie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:15:13 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Kudos to Hasbrouck
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Thank
you john for bringing back a sense of how good this list can be
once a
blue moon
and
used to be more, or I romanticize.
Bring
back the elf abuse.
Trade
you 1 John Hasbrouck post for 20-50 or whoever you want to put in
that
blank.
And QR
Hand kicked ass at the Forked Tongue in San Francisco last night
. .
.but that's another story.
James
Stauffer
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:15:27 EST
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From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Last call for material
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Hello,
If you
publish zines, poetry, chapbooks, or anything, DHARMA beat lists and
publicizes
it in our STUFF page. We are a Jack Kerouac newszine, and always
looking
for new stuff that we can tell our readership about.
We are
also looking for any Kerouac related news item such as: readings,
events,
movies, books, conferences, (like if you are going to have a Poetry
reading
on his Birthday in March -hint hint), let us know and we'll publicize
it in
out calender.
please
e mail me and I will give you a street address to send it to (to make
sure I
get it in time),
thanks
and enjoy, now back to what you were doing...
Attila
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html">DHARMA
beat, A
Jack
Kerouac newszine</A>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 05:03:08 -0500
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From: Thom Colahan
<rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980118192805.75679B-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
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On Sun,
18 Jan 1998, Sara Feustle wrote:
>
Well said!!! I totally agree. Kerouac took a language that so many across
>
the world do not regard as beautiful and showed everyone just how
>
beautiful it can be. --Sara
>
> On Sun, 18 Jan 1998, sherri wrote:
>
>
> to my mind Kerouac captured the beauty and music of 20th century American
>
> English like no one before or sense.
the images, tone, rhythm, alliteration
>
> are amazing. i can understand
someone not liking his poetry, but i can't
>
> understand someone saying he's no poet.
most of his prose has a great deal
>
> of poetic language use.
>
>
>
> ciao, sherri
>
I couldn't agree more. When i first
read Kerouac i was total taken
aback i
had never seen the English language presented in such a freshly
unique
way before. It is impossible to argue that Kerouac was no poet
unless
one is willing to dismiss his prose as well. For to me his prose
was
very poetic, and in my opinion there should not be many differances
between
good poetry and prose.
Lindsay
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:32:41 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Gulf War-Kuwait & China-Tibet
Content-Type:
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>The
Dalai Llama came from a regime that was not
>democratic
before his time, and not afterward. We
>only
supported the tyranny of his backward country
>because
it was a minor bulwark against communism.
>The
Dalai Llama may muse in his writings about whatever
>he
likes. His regime was a tyranny, a
feudal system
>with
him as a God-figure, a ridiculous little place
>that
got a rude taste of the twentieth and maybe three
>previous
centuries, when the Chinese Communists swept in.
>I
imagine Kennedy stopped helping him because there was
>no
way the Dalai Llama and his regime would ever be anything
>we
could stomach anyway.
i am
sorry, but i think you are completely off-base...a country that
refused
to become violent in it's own defense was not the victim of a
"rude
taste of the twentieth century"...they were not a backwards
country,
if ever there was a country anywhere near a spiritual utopia,
this
was it...the primary goal of all citizens was enlightenment...
>Haille
Selassie was lionized by the non-axis
>West
for years because he opposed Mussolini. But Haille
>Selassie
was himself a tyrant.
ah, but
do you realize, that mussolini was the greatest ruler that italy
ever
had?...look into it...to us, he was a tyrant...to a great many of
them, a
man with vision...he did anything and evrything for his country,
if our
president did that, he would be a hero in our eyes...
mussolini
turned the swamplands throughout italy into the beautiful
country
of today...
don't
be so quick to judge...-julian
ps, i
know this is not beat related...
but...when
all else fails...conform...
"he
loved big brother"
-last
words of "1984", by george orwell
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:36:05 PST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac
Content-Type:
text/plain
>
>I've
only read On The Road. A jealous Truman
Capote called
>it
typing, but it is poetry. Ginsberg
called Jack's writing
>poetry. I seem to recall Jack talking about
"Dean, Dean, Dean
>that
God Damn Dean,." Years later I
picked up the echoes in it
>from
Kipling's Gunga Din. On The Road has a
poetic voice
>all
the way through. Especially poetic is
the ecstatic
>language
about Dean Moriarty. I always wondered
if Dean's
>last
name was dragged out of Sherlock Holmes.
Moriarty was
>Holmes'
nemesis, though that wouldn't seem to have anything
>to
do with Dean.
>
>M
all
throughout "on the road", there is a meter...it changes...speeds
up..and
slows down...(an example of this is when they visit jazz
bars...personally,
i flew through those pages...it all seemed to go just
as fast
as if i was experiencing it...
i think
in asking whether or not kerouac was a poet we should first
ask..."what
is a poem"?
-julian
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:29:32 PST
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From: marie countyman
<mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: back and beat
Content-Type:
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hi
first of all apologies to list: until they fix my email account, all
messages
should be sent off list to country@sover.net, or i will have to
spam
list for all replies. i can't make this mailer work very well.
but to
answer yr question, maggie, i live in VT: it's a 4 day 3 night
trip
cross country. once you leave out of chicago on the california
zepher
with the observation/party car and good company it's a great
trip.
chicago to montpelier sucks.
mc
>From
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>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:37:18 EST
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>From:
IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
>Subject: Re: back and beat
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Marie,
where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of
wondering
>how
long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF
before.
>
>maggie
>
______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:37:30 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: abject apologies for spam
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hey
guys, could you send my mail to country@sover.net, my real isp
connection?
they are idiots, but they're my idiots. it will take a while
to get
back on, and hotmail gets all messages delivered to
country@sover.net.
it just
makes backchanneling difficult among other matters.
thanks
still
delirious.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 04:35:03 PST
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From: marie countyman
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Subject: Re: back and beat
Content-Type:
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welcome
back yrself dave. mail me at country@sover.net when you get a
chance.
marie
>From
owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Mon Jan 19 21:29:43 1998
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>Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:09:37 -0600
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>From:
David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>Subject: Re: back and beat
>To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>IDDHI
wrote:
>>
>>
Marie, where do you live? Don't mean to be snoopy but I was kind of
wondering
>>
how long a journey this was for you, and whether you'd been to SF
before.
>>
>>
maggie
>
>marie
lives in outer mongolia
>
>dbr
>
______________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:49:56 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Dear
Sara
It was never my intention to rip
anybody whatsoever. It is not in my
nature.
I was making a comment in the hopes that people reading these posts
would
realize that responding to their knee jerks can make them look foolish
at
times, as did I when I made a comment without knowing fully what and how
the
discussion had been proceeding. The last statement of that post was sorta
in the
form of a not very good Zen koan- only wanted to make people think.
Sorry
if anyone was offended.
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:15:22 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no poet"?! -
FLexistentialism
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Peace 2
All
Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
Stephanie: Sorry, the Zucchini thing threw me off.:) Yeah, that guy was an
>
interesting one.
So
you're glad I didn't leave the list then?
One shouldn't jump to
conclusions,
or was it
just wishful thinking? I promise it'll
get even more
interesting.
BTW: I
like passionate people. I see myself as
passionate too, or was
it
hostile?
Anyway,
I did think about leaving the list but when I read how much fun
y'all
had, I just couldn't do you the favor.
It was
with growing amazement I saw the reactions to the 'no
poet'-thing.
But
then, saying J.K. is 'no poet' on a Beat-list really is just asking
for
trouble.
Actually,
when I wrote that post, I was stoned.
There's only one
advantage
to living
in
Belgium: it's next to Holland. However,
this is NOT an excuse. I
made a
poor choice of words. What I was trying
to say was: _I_ don't
see
J.K. as a _poet_ simply because I've only read a few poems by him
and all
I can remember is that I wasn't really impressed. To me, he was
mainly
a prose writer (few prose has been written that took
my
breath away like the 1st time I read OtR).
Now, I agree with
Stephanie
when she says his prose was pretty 'poetic' (rhythm is
important). Sara, it touched me to see how passionate
you reacted but
don't
you think that everybody's allowed to an opinion?
Bruce
Hartman says it all: ...the only thing anyone can agree on... is
that
nothing can be agreed upon.
I have
as much a right to say he isn't a poet TO ME, as you have to say
he is a
poet TO YOU. Do try and get your facts
straight: I NEVER said I
'hated'
his poetry, how could I feel so strongly about something I admit
not
really knowing?
And if
we were to start a discussion on when prose is really more
poetry,
I sure wouldn't participate cos I don't need/want to see
differences
between prose/poetry.
If you
read a poem that leaves you speechless or you read a book that
you
just can't put away & when finished has you aching for more, what's
the
difference? If it touched your heart,
it must've been worthwile.
We're
all unique individuals, so we can't expect something to touch each
&
everyone of us as deep/at all. Just as
Buddhism was important
to
Jack, Cayce was to Neal (the Cassady's even had a cocker spaniel
named
'Cayce').
I will
however try and think for a minute before I speak (tho I
definitely
am not the only one making this mistake) in the future.
No hard
feelings, I hope
Thomas
_L'important,
c'est pas la chute, c'est la terrissage_
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Zucchini4 wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 98-01-19 18:09:42 EST, you write:
>
>
>
> <<
>
> Who the hell is Stephanie? The
dude that purported that Kerouac was "no
>
> poet" was some guy named
Thomas who subsequently got pissed and left the
>
> list because I and several other
people suggested that he read Mexico City
>
> Blues, Book of Blues, Scattered
Poems and Pomes all Sizes, and THEN see if
>
> he still hated Kerouacs poetry...
It was actually rather amusing...:)
>
>
>
> Sara
Feustle
>
>
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
>
> Cronopio, cronopio? >>
>
>
>
> Oh, hi, I'm Stephanie. After that guy Thomas said whatever it was he said,
I
>
> replied that although I had read very little of Kerouac's poetry, I was
"less
>
> than impressed" (I think were my exact words.) I find his prose to be
a
little
>
> more "poetic" :) I do
intend on finding some of his spoken word (I haven't
>
> actually *heard* much beat poetry at all), especially since everyone here
on
>
> this list thinks it's so important.
>
>
>
> And yeah, when Thomas left... that was kind of funny. But if you read that
>
> "Nirvana" post of his, you knew it would be coming. Very very
hostile...
>
>
>
> --Stephanie
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:34:36 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: re; tone
Comments:
cc: sfeustl@uofto2.utoledo.edu
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Sara:
i get
my list in digest form--these threee were all in a row. it sounds
to me
like you are presenting a bit of a defensive attitude, and that's
what
people are referring to when they asked julian to 'tone' down his
words
when he asks the rest of us to stick to beat subjects. ON THe list
We only
appear to be what our words represent us as.
Please re-read the
following
and try to objectively think what you would think of a person
who
said the following things:
(btw, i
do not think that timothy was trying to make fun of julian and
the
gulf war thing--i think he felt that maybe he could provide julian
with a
better understanding of that world issue--as julian if i am
correct
was just 12 years old when the war broke out, and these are
repercussions,
extremely serious ones for all other countries, of that
war.)
objectively
yours
cathy
>
Subject:
> Re: Anniversary of Gulf War
> Date:
> Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:06:41 -0500
> From:
> Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
>
>
>
Jesus fucking Christ, people... This list is so non-Beat 90% pf the time,
> it
makes me fucking sick. Maybe 2 out of ten messages are worth a damn,
>
the rest is drivel. Silly me, I stay on the list for those two out of ten
>
posts. And Timothy, I don't think you have any right to fuck with Julian
>
like this. HE HAS A POINT!!!! It's true! Most of the posts on this list
>
are about as beat as Martha Stewart!!!!! Julian, e-mail me, and we can
>
discuss the literature in depth, which is the reason that aI joined this
>
damn list in the first place! Thank God David's back, Dave, I missed your
>
insight!!!!!
>
> On
Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
> Attention Julian Ruck
>
>
>
> I believe this is the anniversary of the Gulf war that was started in 1991
>
> when george bush was preisident.
>
>
>
> The war was started when Saddam's Hussein's Iraq went into Kuwait, a
>
> neighboring country because they felt that Kuwait was rightly and
>
> historically their territory.
>
>
>
> A United Nations coalition, led by the US, then fought militarily to
retake
>
> Kuwait back from the Iraqi army who had overrun and occupied Kuwait.
>
> Saddam Hussein was villified and criticized, sometimes called the punnish
>
> So Damn Insane by those who didn't like him.
>
>
>
> One of the consequences of the Iraqi defeat was that a UN agreement that
>
> Iraq would allow UN inspectoators in to their country and various plants
to
>
> inspect to make sure no weapons were being produced that violate UN
>
> treaties.
>
>
>
> That is apparently the crux of the problem today in that Hussein does not
>
> want to fufill his part of the UN agreement concerning the UN inspectors.
>
>
>
> So Julian, thanks for bringing this topic up and asking about it. I never
>
> would have mentioned it or thought about it if you hadn't asked.
>
>
>
> I hope this answered all your questions and am glad to help you out, but I
>
> think maybe you should stick more to discussing the beats when on the
list.
>
>
>
> But hey whatever you want!!!
>
>
>
>
>
Subject:
> Re: "Tone"
> Date:
> Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:11:06 -0500
> From:
> Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
>
>
>
> That's all. Don't turn this into some silly call against
censorship. I'm
> not a
>
> nazi, I'm not an asshole.
>
>
>
> And by the way, Ginsberg's Poetry and a post on a listserv asking people
to
> stop
>
> discussing non-Beat subjects is not a logical ananlogy.
>
> Hmmmm... re-read that sentence, and
tell me if it make any
>
sense...
>
>
>
Subject:
> Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
> Date:
> Sat, 17 Jan 1998 22:16:55 -0500
> From:
> Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
>
>
> I
take it you haven't read any of his poems, then!!! You need to read
>
Mexico City Blues, Scattered Poems, Pomes All Sizes and Book of Blues
>
IMMEDIATELY. If you still believe that Jack
Kerouac was not a good poet,
>
get help. --Sara
>
>
>
> but that's it). Jack Kerouac was
no poet either. That is: I've never
>
> read any (good) poem by him.
>
>
>
>
L8R
>
> Thomas Van
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:32:51 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Just
because Jack Kerouac was screwed by Gore Vidal
in 1952
is no reason to think that either was homosexual.
And the
fact that a drunken Kerouac later shouted
_I blew
Gore Vidal!_ in a bar certainly doesn't mean he's queer.
And so
what if Jack and Allen jerked off together?
Can't a
regular guy get off with his buddy without
being
called a faggot?
I
mean....that would mean that....
Never
mind.
Ordinary
mind.
First
thought.
Second
thought.
>From
my top 10 favorite Kerouac quotes:
(regarding
homosexuality) _...blow jobs, but no assholes..._
Another,
from VANITY OF DULUOZ:
_and
what's all this about men loving men???_
Is it a
crime to
be in
one's prime?
-JOHN
HASBROUCK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:34:47 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:05:24 EST
from <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Dear
Bill, I'm sending a flyer describing the MLA award by snail mail. You can
find additional information on the MLA's web
page -- www.mla.org. There's a s
ub-directory
for awards. New Orleans was great --
weather and food wise. I wa
nted to
go over to Algiers to take a picture of WSB's house but didn't make it
because
it poured cats & dogs on Monday, the day I had planned my little ferry
ride across
the Mississippi. What did you think of
that hatchet job Latham did
on Allen in the NYT Magazine? I wrote a brief protest letter. Don't know if
they'll
bother to publish it. Take care. As Ever,
Bill.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:45:54 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Oops!
My
apologies to the list. Obviously, I
meant that last message for Bill Morgan
not for the list. Must remember to check those headers.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:25:38 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
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>
Bill Gargan wrote:
> What did you think of that hatchet job
Latham did
> on Allen in the NYT Magazine?
>
Can you elaborate on this? Which issue
of NYT Magazine?DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:10:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "john v. omlor"
<omlor@PACKET.NET>
Subject: Annoying request for unsub info...
Mime-Version:
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Sorry
about this, but I need to do some travelling and have lost the
unsubbing
info for this particular list. I don't
know who to send a
private
request to so I was hoping someone would be kind and send me the
info so
I can unsub for a time.
Thanks,
--John
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:11:31 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the absolutely last version
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quoted-printable
while
in california, leon was kind enough to introduce me to an
incredible
poet-jazzman, QR Hand, who was also kind enough to work
through
the awkward parts of the monster insomnia quartet.
it's
now ready for prime time (sans typos, i hope)
so here
goes:(again, best is centered)
IN SOMNIA QUARTET
I
PART
ONE:
DAY
FOUR: In Somnia
In Somnia
is the
place i inhabit
each
autumn up here in north country.
In Somnia,
time changes:
clocks run backwards
as
fast as ahead
and collide,
like two perfectly balanced arrows
two exquisitely aimed arrows
meeting in mid flight -
time
collapses.
I've tried
doctors pills,
herbal remedies,
warm milk!
relaxation, meditation
chants!
(and furtive readings from the =91self
help=92
corner of local bookstore )
no sleep
anguish
until, 96 hours into
black night slowly
inching toward dawn,
i look out my window
and
see the first snow
of autumn.
I watch the snow fall
and
muse upon my hepatitis C,
a life
line without guarantee-
a reminder of mortality.
I
would like to think
the gods are smiling on me,
giving me more time
to store up against an early death:
so
charged am i,
electrified,
vowels-
consonants-
metaphors-
VOICES
ring in my head,
and I spend time with poets
who would rather
stay dead:
Woolfe, Sexton, Plath
(I've often wondered if I'd follow your
path),
or
Dylan Thomas
or Jack
Kerouac,
one can drown in water, or in
wine,
nothing sublime about that.
is it an affliction,
these extra hours,
dark, quiet, soft snow falling
or gift?
(these extra hours
dark, quiet, soft snow falling)
I wonder and wander
in the
dark, quiet, snow falling
hours as the horizon point is touched
by flame
I=92m still awake
when daybreak changes snow to rain
snow washed away
in to the rain
I=92m still awake
I=92m still awake
I=92m still awake
~~~~~~~~~~~~
II
FLASHBACK:
1993
(Imploding
marriage)
lately I just keep waking
lately I just keep waking alone
in the black of night
I breathe shallow I wear earphones
not to wake you.
3 am, 4 am,
mind
wanders and stumbles,
stuck in the valley of consciousness,
black timelessness,
where there is no tomorrow.
i tire
of endless stifled silence,
i
choose instead to merge with the blackness-
listen to the fire blazing in my ears
and break free!
passion bursts in my ears!
and turning,
turn up the volume on the
sobbing
stereo
wailing!
I make my choice
light the candle
shed my
clothes
and let my hips find their own rhythm-
scarf in hand,
flung!
swirls,
settles on lamp
as i dance,
shadow-cast.
In the midst of a hurricane,
a halcyon dance.
Go away if it bothers you, in fact
please go away.
It=92s the blackness you see
the blackness and me
everybody nobody knows about me
nobody everybody
knows about me
the song
the vigil
the
darkness in me.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
III
DAY
FIVE: DANCE
In camp light,
all others ringed round the fire asleep,
I steal the ceiling of stars, sleepless,
cold,
and needing a blanket for comfort,
I sit
and bend towards the flames
until
firelight warmth
is
blown away
by
great gust of cold, then icy fire:
he
appears
my wolf,
angst,
anima,
lover--
as the firelight
turns to music-
sweat raises to shoulders-
and muscles obey!
running electric alive currents!
we embrace
and dance
in
firey icy dervishness:
my
adversary
brother
lover
killer
life
giver,
we
dance...
IV
NIGHT
SEVEN: IN DREAMLESS NIGHTS
In dreams, I remember flying
-the freedom
-the altitude
-my shadow cast on the hill scapes-
feathers
delineated in shadow shapes
wingspread wide and proud.
I no longer dream of flying,
I no longer dream at all.
(I hail from the country of In Somnia
I=92m only here to gather some
ingredients:
bane of darkness
wort of light
bones of a robin)
Laid awake for so many of my days
the return to the land of sleep
and the
company of sleepers
seems
an impossibility
so
i
choose to live in my palace
created
by madness
and
peopled by imagination-
who is
to say whose reality is which?
still,
i pray
for my dream weaver
where I
lie,
invisible
to the naked I
still
and quiet in the darkest night of all,
until I
see you approach,
dream
weaver,
I see you pick up this paper,
blessed
by tears and torn
by desperation,
I see you pick it up,
it
feels good,
oh yes
it does, so soft,
so
pliable,
feel me,
i am in your pocket
i=92m here;
you awaken....
(c) marie countryman
oct.
24-30, 1997
revised
11/11/97
revised
sometime in jan. 98
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:02:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: WSB bibliography
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980119213612.570971977B-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
hey all,
>
> I
was browsing thru some library catalogs, and was wondering if anyone
>
here has ever seen, or knows anything at all about, the following
>
books:
>
>
Garcia-Robles, Jorge. _La bala perdida: William S. Burroughs en
> Mexico, 1949-1952_. (Mexico DF:
Ediciones del Milenio, 1995)
I don't
know anything about the book, but wasn't somebody on the list
looking
for just such information a while ago? No hope of finding them now
I
suppose.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:28:51 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Oops!
HAHAHA! happens to the best of us, eh? ciao, sherri :-)
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Tuesday, January 20, 1998 8:35 AM
Subject:
Oops!
>My
apologies to the list. Obviously, I
meant that last message for Bill
Morgan
>
not for the list. Must remember to
check those headers.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:18:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:25:38 -0800
from
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
The
January 4th issue of the New York Times Magazine was devoted to
famous
people who had died in the preceeding year.
It was called "The
Lives
They Lived" and it was supposed to contain tributes to those who
had
passed on and had made a
difference. Rather than list AG's
accomplishments,
Latham decided he'd write about the Jack Melody car
chase. It was a breezy, sensational little piece
similar in tone to the
article
he had in New York Magazine a while back (The Murder That Gave
Birth
to the Beats). Anyway, I thought it was
inappropriate for a
"tribute"
issue and wrote to the Times to say so.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:47:45 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Socialism or Death!--fidel, 1998.
In-Reply-To:
<19980120123242.27688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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SOCIALISMO
O MUERTE!
FIDEL
TELEVISED BY CNN
****mussolini
turned the swamplands throughout italy into the beautiful
country
of today... --Julian Ruck(1)***********************************
(1)
damnation! damnation!
damnation!
damnation! damnation!
damnation!
i think
the dark side
of
capitalistic democracy is fascism,
each religion/politics has a terrible
curse
(
ah la maledizion!, Rigoletto
)
no glen
miller farewell blues! but giuseppe verdi
,
(they
want to bust out of the kosmos--EP),
America
is democracy
&
fascism,
Ben Mussolini
was
a HERO
and the
day after he was the
DEVIL
and now are
we
sure
there'snt fascists
in the world ?
(Thus
Ben
and la
Clara a Milano/
by the
heels at Milano/
--EP) do u known a religion
that
isn't politics (& vice versa?) Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism,
Nazism,
a day a guy can shot u w/out
any reason, or can explode
yr head
Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism,
Nazism, why stop?
You
are
right the president
maybe a hero,
a poet
can be
a hero,
whirling yr head
&
sucks u into the pain,
sucks
yr money, sucks yr soul
well, my window
looked out on the Squero
where Ogni Santi
meets San Trovaso
things have ends and
beginnings--ezra pound
save
us,
save us,
save us!
damnation!damnation!
damnation!
---
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:39:12 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: the absolutely last version
MIME-Version:
1.0
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text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
while in california, leon was kind enough to introduce me to an
>
incredible poet-jazzman, QR Hand, who was also kind enough to work
>
through the awkward parts of the monster insomnia quartet.
>
it's now ready for prime time (sans typos, i hope)
> so
here goes:(again, best is centered)
THIS IS
BEAUTIFUL!
even
made me feel better.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:00:10 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love
love love
MIME-Version:
1.0
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IDDHI
wrote:
>
>
Has anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
>
>
Seems like people do everything else.
>
>
I'm serious. Has it ever happened?
>
>
Maggie (unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
has
anyone ever made a prenuptial on the Beat-L? <grin> i have to
wonder
if i've ever proposed anything serious on the Beat-L....hell, i
don't
read what i type before i send it off - and only if some traffic
occurs
do i look back and see what the fingers were toying with .... so
if i
haven't yet proposed anything on the Beat-L, i'm pretty sure that
it's
just a matter of time before my fingers shoot off their mouths in
that
direction ...
definitely
just a typist,
david
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:14:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Socialism or Death!--fidel, 1998.
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
>
>
SOCIALISMO O MUERTE!
>
FIDEL TELEVISED BY CNN
>
>
****mussolini turned the swamplands throughout italy into the beautiful
>
country of today... --Julian Ruck(1)***********************************
>
> (1)
> damnation! damnation!
> damnation!
>
damnation!
damnation!
> damnation!
>
> i
think
> the dark side
> of
capitalistic democracy is fascism,
> each religion/politics has a terrible
curse
> (
> ah la maledizion!,
Rigoletto
> )
>
> no
glen miller farewell blues! but giuseppe verdi
>
> ,
>
>
(they want to bust out of the kosmos--EP),
>
America is democracy
>
& fascism,
> Ben Mussolini
> was
> a
HERO and the
> day after he was the
>
DEVIL and now are
> we
>
sure there'snt fascists
> in the world ?
>
(Thus Ben
>
and la Clara a Milano/
> by
the heels at Milano/
>
--EP) do u
known a religion
>
>
that isn't politics (& vice versa?) Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism,
>
Nazism,
> a day a guy can shot u w/out
any reason, or can explode
> yr
head
> Catholic, Buddhist, Fascism,
Nazism, why stop?
>
> You
>
are right the president
> maybe a hero,
> a poet
>
can be a hero,
> whirling yr head
> &
> sucks u into the pain,
>
sucks
> yr money, sucks yr soul
>
> well, my window
> looked out on the Squero
where Ogni Santi
> meets San Trovaso
> things have ends and
beginnings--ezra pound
>
>
save us,
> save us,
> save us!
>
>
damnation!damnation!
>
damnation!
>
>
---
>
Rinaldo.
I was
expecting a rebuttal, Rinaldo! I'm just
shocked you were so
passive
in your retort.
david
rhaesa (race)
salina,
Kansas
(still
looking towards denver)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:27:58 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: quote search
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
A week
or so back someone posted the following quote by Burroughs: "All
agents
defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
Thanks,
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:20:19 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Note to Jeff Weinberg
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Sorry
for the spam folks, but when my mailbox blew up I lost Jeff
Weinberg's
e-mail--
Jeff,
could you please send it to me.
Thanks
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:24:33 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Luke Kelly <lpk@KDSI.NET>
Subject: Burroughs/Beat
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hi
everyone-- it's been a long time since I've posted anything to BEAT-L,
but I
thought I'd mention a new toy on my bigtable.com site....
I've
installed a new search engine that is indexing Burroughs-related
sites
on the net. Based on reaction/use, I'll
expand it to cover a
broader
range of beat info.
If you
have a minute, take a look--
http://www.bigtable.com/
Cheers!
Luke
Kelly
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:34:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: KRUMMX <KRUMMX@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Poetry and Nonsense scribbling
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
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ummm i
was wondering if anyone on
the
server had or knew of zines
that
take poetry from anyone
since
the zines ive tried so far
have
been pretty anal
oh well
thanx
seAn
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 06:30:00 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: BKA <atsushi@B022.AONE.NET.AU>
Subject: Which WSB book?
MIME-Version:
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Hi
A month
back I saw an interview by Kathy Acker with WSB on video at the
library
and have a quick question. I was
wondering if anyone knows which
book he
was talking about, at the end of the video.
Thanks
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:49:40 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:16:33 -0800
from
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
It's
surprising that there's so little on Kerouac as a Catholic writer
but you
might want to take a look at Joy Walsh's "Jack Kerouac:
Roman
Catholic conscience and the Body," THE REVIEW OF CONTEMPORARY
FICTION,
3, 2, (Summer 1983), 68-72, Richard Sorrell's "The Catholicism
of Jack
Kerouac," STUDIES IN RELIGION SCIENCES (RELIGIEUSES: REVUE
CANADIENNE),
11, 2 (1982), 188-200, and chapter 16 ("The Beatific
Vision:
J.P. Donleavy and Jack Kerouac) of AMERICAN CATHOLIC ARTS AND
FICTIONS:
CULTURE, IDEOLOGY, AESTHETICS (Cambridge U.P., 1992) by Paul
Giles.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:15:25 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Catholicism vs Buddhism 2nd Noble
Question
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
>
It's surprising that there's so little on Kerouac as a Catholic writer
>
but you might want to take a look at Joy Walsh's "Jack Kerouac:
>
Roman Catholic conscience and the Body," THE REVIEW OF CONTEMPORARY
>
FICTION, 3, 2, (Summer 1983), 68-72, Richard Sorrell's "The Catholicism
> of
Jack Kerouac," STUDIES IN RELIGION SCIENCES (RELIGIEUSES: REVUE
>
CANADIENNE), 11, 2 (1982), 188-200, and chapter 16 ("The Beatific
>
Vision: J.P. Donleavy and Jack Kerouac) of AMERICAN CATHOLIC ARTS AND
>
FICTIONS: CULTURE, IDEOLOGY, AESTHETICS (Cambridge U.P., 1992) by Paul
>
Giles.
didn't
kerouac write for a catholic newspaper or
magazine......uh.........
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:01:09 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: Biblio
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
>
The January 4th issue of the New York Times Magazine was devoted to
>
famous people who had died in the preceeding year. It was called "The
>
Lives They Lived" and it was supposed to contain tributes to those who
>
had passed on and had made a difference. Rather than list AG's
>
accomplishments, Latham decided he'd write about the Jack Melody car
>
chase. It was a breezy, sensational
little piece similar in tone to the
>
article he had in New York Magazine a while back (The Murder That Gave
>
Birth to the Beats). Anyway, I thought
it was inappropriate for a
>
"tribute" issue and wrote to the Times to say so.
Is 'The
Murder That Gave Birth to the Beats' the killing of Kammerer?
And
what I would really like to know is:
What is
the general tone of articles on the beatpoets nowadays? I hope
not all
the magazines/newspapers only publish sensational pieces that
contain
positive nor negative feedback but are just really fastfood.
How is
the influence of the beats nowadays looked at?
I can
remember A.G.'s death being nothing more than a footnote in the
Belgian
press. W.S.B. was considered a little
bit more important.
But
then again, this is Belgium, and I don't think there is one English
literature
class (college or uni) in Belgium that spends any time on
Kerouac,
Burroughs or Ginsberg. It definitely
has nothing to do with
the
difference old skool/Am. English. BTW:
English's our 3rd language.
So, do
the U.S.A. know their classics?
And to
what extent are the beats studied around American classrooms?
Any
info would be greatly appreciated.
Tanx,
Thomas.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:45:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: quote search
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Preston
Whaley wrote:
>
> A
week or so back someone posted the following quote by Burroughs: "All
>
agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
>
>
Thanks,
>
>
Preston
i tried
several forms of searches at Bigtable database with no luck.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:49:50 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Kathy Acker
SF Bay
Area Beats - in case you weren't aware, there will be a memorial for
Kathy
Acker on Thursday, 1/22 at Slim's, 8pm.
let me know if any of you are
going
to go so we can hook up there. i'm told
her ashes are to be set to
the
winds here, not sure if that's part of the thing at Slim's or not...
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:14:22 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: quote search
MIME-Version:
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re:
quote
by Burroughs: "All
>
> agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the
source?
no, but
i can paraphrase a quick leonard cohen poem:
every
man has a way to betray the revolution
this is
mine
(i
think cohen is the most beat of contemporary writers not really
connected
with them. his first poems were
published in 1957. richard
farinia
would be a second choice. does anyone
know if farinia
associated
with any of the beats?)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:14:48 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: back and beat
mc et
other Beat Listers,
Let the
tapes roll. Send 'em on. Anyone else who is recording your own poetry
and
interested in getting some airplay in the central ohio wasteland (for what
its
worth), feel free to contact me for details, in private would be best.
Thanks,
Dave B.
("Breithau@kenyon.edu")
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:23:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by
Bruce Cook
MIME-Version:
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I just
saw this book in the window of my neighborhood used book shop (the
store
was closed so I couldn't examine it more closely). Has anyone read
this
book? Is it significant/worth reading?
Thanks,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:33:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by
Bruce Cook
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:23:52 -0600
from
<jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
It was
one of the earliest works on the Beat Generation. It's popular rather t
han
scholarly. I'd recommend John Tytell's
Naked Angels as a better introducti
on.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:50:55 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by
Bruce Cook
MIME-Version:
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Haven't
read his "Beat Book: but Bruce Cook does some nice detective fiction,
for
those
of you with that vice.
James
Stauffer
Bill
Gargan wrote:
> It
was one of the earliest works on the Beat Generation. It's popular rather
t
>
han scholarly. I'd recommend John
Tytell's Naked Angels as a better
introducti
>
on.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:22:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality and love
love love
In-Reply-To: <34C4F43A.35BB@midusa.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jeez,
has anyone ever had cybersex on here? Scary thought....
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Tue,
20 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
IDDHI wrote:
>
>
>
> Has anyone ever proposed marriage on Beat-L?
>
>
>
> Seems like people do everything else.
>
>
>
> I'm serious. Has it ever happened?
>
>
>
> Maggie (unmarried, by the way, and not looking to change)
>
> has
anyone ever made a prenuptial on the Beat-L? <grin> i have to
>
wonder if i've ever proposed anything serious on the Beat-L....hell, i
>
don't read what i type before i send it off - and only if some traffic
>
occurs do i look back and see what the fingers were toying with .... so
> if
i haven't yet proposed anything on the Beat-L, i'm pretty sure that
>
it's just a matter of time before my fingers shoot off their mouths in
>
that direction ...
>
>
definitely just a typist,
>
david
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:28:04 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by
Bruce Cook
Reply
to message from WXGBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU of Tue, 20 Jan
>
>It
was one of the earliest works on the Beat Generation. It's popular rather t
>han
scholarly. I'd recommend John Tytell's
Naked Angels as a better introducti
>on.
>
>
I agree
here. I had that book in my possesion
once, but didn't read it.
The
fact that while flipping through it I came across some statement about
Kerouac
only having had two wives threw me.
Diane.
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:28:37 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Zucchini4 <Zucchini4@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Looking for these literary journals...
Content-type:
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I know
this is off topic, but I couldn't think of a better group of people to
ask...
If
anyone could help me find these magazines, I would be very very thankful.
The
Baffler
Open
City (possibly also a publising
company???)
Minus
Times
I'm
interested in finding the writing of David Berman, and he says he's a
regular
contributer to all three. Thank you.
( and
please reply privately so we don't clog everyone else's mailbox.)
--Stephanie
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:53:04 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: love love love
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
Jeez, has anyone ever had cybersex on here? Scary thought....
>
Happen
all the time, just got to look for subtle clues.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:38:51 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Looking for these literary
journals...
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open
city was an underground tabloid published by john bryant in LA in
the 1960s. they're really rare.
john
bryant (bryan?....no, i think bryant) was publishing a similar
paper
in san francisco a couple of years ago, though i can't think of
its
name.
open
city was the first place to publish bukowski, and it seems some of
his earliest
stuff, maybe in the city lights anthology is about the
paper
?where
did i read the story that bryant was a graphic artist somewhere,
and he
was told to airbrush the baby jesus' balls off a classical
painting,
so it could be used for a newspaper ad, and he said fukthishit
and
started open city?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:24:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan
<rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
<19980119122513.21876.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version:
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On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
> its pretty bad when you have to start a
"background" list because the
>
foreground one can't stay on topic...
>
-julian
>
> ps...to keep this post beat related...
> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac
approved of "alternate"
>
sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and
"queer"
>
more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>
meant to be derogatory or not...
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
I dont think the usage of the words
fag or queer was meant as
dergogatory,
one must understand that at this time society had not gone
through
the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
book
was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
term.
Kerouac himself was never an admited
homosexual he had experimented
on more
than a few occasions. I read in a book
called Angel Headed
hipster
( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
experince
with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in
an alley or
something
like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
but he
did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
have
lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
Lindsay
p.s. am
only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
time
consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
beat
realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
to stay
up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
in , etc.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:05:38 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980121001217.3913A-100000@freenet.nether.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Wed,
21 Jan 1998, Thom Colahan wrote:
> On
Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
>
>
> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
>
> its pretty bad when you have to
start a "background" list because the
>
> foreground one can't stay on topic...
>
> -julian
>
>
>
> ps...to keep this post beat
related...
>
> i was curious as to whether or not
kerouac approved of "alternate"
>
> sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and
"queer"
>
> more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>
> meant to be derogatory or not...
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
>
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> I dont think the usage of the words
fag or queer was meant as
>
dergogatory, one must understand that at this time society had not gone
>
through the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
>
book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
>
term. Kerouac himself was never an
admited homosexual he had experimented
> on
more than a few occasions. I read in a
book called Angel Headed
>
hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
>
experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in an alley or
>
something like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
>
but he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
>
have lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
>
p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
>
time consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
>
beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
> to
stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
> in
, etc.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:09:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau
<mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980121001217.3913A-100000@freenet.nether.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Lindsay,
I
completely disagree with you. I cannot help but read the following
statement
by Sal in _On the Road_ without seeing his use of the word as
derogatory:
"I'm no old fag like that fag . . ." (212). I can almost hear
the
sneer in the passage.
Cordially,
Mike
Skau
On Wed,
21 Jan 1998, Thom Colahan wrote:
> On
Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
>
>
> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
>
> its pretty bad when you have to
start a "background" list because the
>
> foreground one can't stay on topic...
>
> -julian
>
>
>
> ps...to keep this post beat
related...
>
> i was curious as to whether or not
kerouac approved of "alternate"
>
> sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and
"queer"
>
> more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>
> meant to be derogatory or not...
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
>
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> I dont think the usage of the words
fag or queer was meant as
>
dergogatory, one must understand that at this time society had not gone
>
through the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
>
book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
>
term. Kerouac himself was never an
admited homosexual he had experimented
> on
more than a few occasions. I read in a
book called Angel Headed
>
hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
>
experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in an alley or
>
something like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
>
but he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
>
have lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
>
p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
>
time consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
>
beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
> to
stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
> in
, etc.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 01:27:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thom Colahan
<rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
In-Reply-To: <01bd252d$bbaee800$1861e2cf@hartman>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Mon,
19 Jan 1998, Bruce Hartman wrote:
>
Hello all,
>
> Thank you, Race, for pointing out that
I've turned off the lurk. . .
>
let's just hope I can keep my head above water with the responses.
>
> I think this "Kerouac no poet"
thread is great. The only problem I
have
>
are the knee-jerk responses. Sara's
sticks out in my mind most of all
>
(though I don't have it here to quote from) as being very emotional. Sure,
>
poetry is emotional. . . but where's
your proof of Kerouac's poetical
>
greatness? It seems that the few who
are agreeing with this thread are at
>
least "putting up," while those who have challenged have responded
with
>
little more than a general tone of "Damn you, Blasphemer."
> Don't get me wrong, I love Kerouac's
poetry--probably more so than his
>
prose. One of the greatest things, I
think, about Jack's poetry is that he
>
shows us all that we, too, can be poets.
There's nothing technical to it,
>
it's easy to read and digest, even easier to listen to. However, these
>
things alone, let's face it, don't make a person a poet.
>
> An
short second-hand anecdote. . . While
in college, a former English
>
professor of mine (known hereafter as Rick) planned to give a thesis on
>
Frank O'Hara, someone who I think most of us will agree is a poet. When he
>
discussed it with his advisor, Rick was told to forget it, that the English
>
department did not consider O'Hara a poet, much less a worthy subject of a
>
thesis.
>
> What's the point I'm trying to make? I guess it comes down to this: in
> a
world where things are becoming more relative by the day, the only thing
>
anyone can agree on all of them time (it seems) is that nothing can be
>
agreed upon. In the end, Rick did give
his thesis on O'Hara and did
>
remarkably well, even convinced his professor to take a second look. He
>
didn't manage that by simply stating that O'Hara is a great poet simply
>
because he said so, or having a crying jag in his professor's office. We,
> of
all people, should be open to variances of opinion. . .
> Why do <i>you</i> think
Jack's such a great poet?
>
>
Bruce
>
Very valid point, although i believe i
was one of the pones who
just
stated in an emotional way that Kerouac was a poet. So i guess i want
to
elaborate . I think Kerouac was a great poet because he was always very
straight
to the point, he didnt have to use complicated methaphors or
create
structurally complex works. He was able to capture the essence of
the
languageand convey what he wished to say by simple structure and eeven
simple
use of words. As you said Kerouacs poems are not difficult to
understnad
or read, and i believe that they are great because they help to
make
poetry reachable. In the introduction to Poems All Sizes Ginsberg
wrote
of Kerouacs poetry:
"
'Till Kerouac as poet's understood, his formal verse beauty visible to
scholars,
and his surprise mind tenderness taken straight-forwardly and
felt by
vulneralbe Professors, the teaching of American literature'll
never
get on the right track, a concious breath of U.S. poetry be
neglected,
the nation won't exhale its own compassionate spirit, hordes of
literary
bureaucrats will continue to snuffle
shallow inspiration and new
generations'll
be turned off to poetry except for individual chancein
finding
this original Kerouac bookor works by Kerouac fellow traveler
poets...."
Thanks, Lindsay
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:58:17 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Liam Ferney
<s341839@STUDENT.UQ.EDU.AU>
Organization:
Student
Subject: Re: Kerouac "no
poet"?!?!?!?!?!?!
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IOTKQ
wrote:
>
>
Discuss this one hour from now on Kerochat!
>
The topic tonight is Visions of Cody but that is basically a starting
>
point....VOC is a poem, "only pages long"...discuss the merits of
this. Go to:
>
>
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
>
Click on the link for The Kerouac Quarterly Chat Room
> It
will take you to Talk Cit, put in your nickname, (we suggest loading in
>
the "lite" version, and it will be all set. Just type inand hit
Enter.
>
> or, use your IRC, go to
>
>
www.talkcity.com
>
6667
>
#Kerochat See ya there!
Paul....
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our
virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
I
realise this posting is well after the fashion but I've been away from
my
computer for a couple of days and a statement like Kerouac not being
a poet
really pisses me off. Granted not all of his poetry works but
when it
does you can feel it kicking you so hard in the balls that you
find
yourself bending over and grasping for breath. There are poems in
Mexico
City Blues like this, S.F. Blues, Pomes all Sizes, Some of the
Dharma.
Secondly Kerouac writes prose so good that it is poetry. It
captures
the essence and purity of words in such a way that at that time
they
cease to be prose they become instead part of that great rambling
grandiose
poem of Amercian fiction, "The Dulouz Legend". And seriously
when
Kerouac is on it he is so fucking on it that nobody is going to
stand
within a hundred metres of him save a smattering of the great
writers.
Just remember Kerouacs perfect prose, and it isn't all perfect,
when
you say Kerouac's no poet.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:10:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.BSF.3.96.980121001217.3913A-100000@freenet.nether.net >
Mime-Version:
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I think
terms like fag and queer are still valid, in spite of
political
correctness. So are nigger, kike and
coon. There is
a free
speech issue. No matter how smooth
things become, no matter
how smooth people think they are making things,
racist, bigots and anyone
else must
retain all rights to express themselves as awfully and freely as
they
like. Like it or not, its the American
way. Political Correctness is
against
the American way, and will eventually fall by the wayside.
Mike
Rice
At
12:24 AM 1/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On
Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Julian Ruck wrote:
>
>> i will in fact e-mail you sara...
>> its pretty bad when you have to start a
"background" list because the
>>
foreground one can't stay on topic...
>>
-julian
>>
>> ps...to keep this post beat related...
>> i was curious as to whether or not kerouac
approved of "alternate"
>>
sexualities...in reading on the road i saw tha words "fag" and
"queer"
>>
more than a few times, and i was wondering if anyone knew if it was
>>
meant to be derogatory or not...
>>
>>
______________________________________________________
>>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>
> I dont think the usage of the words
fag or queer was meant as
>dergogatory,
one must understand that at this time society had not gone
>through
the changes resulkting from political correctness. At the time the
>book
was writtne, and in fact burroughs books as well, this was a common
>term.
Kerouac himself was never an admited
homosexual he had experimented
>on
more than a few occasions. I read in a
book called Angel Headed
>hipster
( a biography of Kerouac) that Ginsberg had had his first sexual
>experince
with Kerouac, he basically jerked him off in
an alley or
>something
like that. Kerouac never publically spoke of these experinces
>but
he did speak highly of gays, saying some of the greatest people to
>have
lived were gays, or those who made the biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
>p.s.
am only new to the list Julien but i have to agree with you, its too
>time
consuming to have to sift through a bunch of mail that is not at all
>beat
realted, but i do enjoy alot of what people have to say so i will try
>to
stay up to date reading the mail and deleting stuff im not interested
>in
, etc.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 01:31:59 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: my meeting with marie
Comments:
cc: bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
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hey
all,
i'm so
sorry i've taken so long to report on how the meeting in chicago
went
with our own fair marie countryman went.
got
home from chicago just last night, took me awhile to wade through
the
three days worth of mail.
so
here's how it went:
let's
put it this way; she wanted to be
'poured on' the train, so
that's
exactly what we did.
i was
about a half hour late, but she was not hard to locate at all. i
recognized
her backpack first. she had told me to
look for one like
it. She was very very relieved to see me. when you think about it,
that
would be understandable--hoping that the person you've been talking
to over
the computer for the last few months actuaally makes it there.
We got
her a hamburger,many many icehouse beers (TWice the alchohol as
regular
beers, mind you) ANd just sat down and
talked , discussed,
starting
one thought even before we finished the one we were on. i kept
having
to say 'oh yeah, in reference to that which we were talking about
just
five minutes ago'. i started so many
conversations with her, and
three
hours was not enough to finish them all.
there was not an awkward
moment
at all, no silence. just a creative
burst of the meeting of
minds.
she
showed me some of her journal, the section she had been writing
about
searching for me as i was running late.
i signed her journal for
her,
wrote a few scentences. she showed me
the beads she had gotten in
california. i gave her a mix tape that i had dubbed off
for her, and a
tape of
timbuk 3's "FIELd guide"
she
also got to meet a couple of friends of mine, jess and tim. she
took
all of our pictures.
she
also showed me some drawings she had done.
they were very
haunting, very beautiful.
we had
a great talk, and just as i predicted, three hours was definitely
not
enough. her train was a little late pulling in, so we got a few
extra
minutes. i have a most wonderful black
and white portrait that i
took of
her crouching against a wall there in the terminal. as soon as
i can
get to a scanner, i will post it. she
dosen't look bad for having
drank
many beers in a very short period of time.
i left her at the gate, she by this time had
made friends with a couple
college
girls with big backpacks. i gave one
last holler to her, and
gave
her the peace sign right before i rounded the corner out of sight.
i
walked out of there grinning from ear to ear because it had worked out
so very
well.
i just
wanted to let you all know that it went wonderfully, beautifully,
had a
lot of fun. it was very strange to meet
someone in this manner,
talking
for two months on the net first then meeting face to face. but
like
marie said we would--we knew each other right away.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 02:44:53 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: movies
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
does
anyone know if WSB had a favorite movie?
what was it? or if he
liked
movies at all?
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:34:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nicolai Pharao
<nicpha@CPHLING.DK>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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I
suppose I agree with mike on the anti-P.C.
thing and freedom of speech issue,
but it
is a dangerous one. Using these expressions in a derogatory way simply
perpetuates
the same old hate that has been going around for centuries, holding
us
locked in a constant fight over who gets the last shot, thereby not
"seeing
whats
on the end of every fork".
To do,
as black (mainly hip-hop ?) culture in U.S., have done and taken over the
derogatory
word themselves and turning it into a positive/casual word seems to
me an
interesting attempt at cutting word lines so to speak.
Racists
may have the right to be racist as well as homophobes may have the right
to be
homophobic, but they are merely instruments of control refusing to open
their
eyes and minds simply because they are afraid that what they would see
could
hurt them.
"
'You see an animal you kill it, don't you ? Might've bitten one of the
boys!'....Contact
THAT, connect with THAT, feeeelTHAT, and ask yourself: whose
life is
worth more ? The badger's or this piece of white shit ?"
WSB
from The Cat Inside
Nic
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:41:57 -0400
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Preston Whaley
<paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: zines
Mime-Version:
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Here's
an article on history of zines and the role of Beat small press in
setting
the pattern for the trade. I lost the
post which asked for info.
on
particular contemporary zines, but I thought this might be of interest.
http://thetransom.com/chip/zines/resource/wright2.html#chap
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:10:54 -0500
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From: "James F. Wood 253-7886"
<WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: cybersex
MIME-version:
1.0
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Cybersex
on here???WOW Got for it
"The
Old Hippie"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:15:58 EST
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From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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In a
message dated 98-01-20 02:06:07 EST, you write:
<<
Burroughs had quite disparaging
things to say about "faggots." >>
There
are homosexuals who are "faggots", just like there are black/african
american/yes
even white folks who are "niggers".
Both of these terms can be
thought
of as insulting, perhaps inflamatory; or we could take the Lenny Bruce
(a
certified beat) approach and rob them of their power through their overuse
and
abuse.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: cybersex
In-Reply-To:
<E2515ZXFFBPCJA*/R=FIRNVX/R=A1/U=WOODJ/@MHS>
MIME-version:
1.0
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*laughing
hysterically* I wonder what Beat cybersex would look/sound
like....
On second thought, maybe I don't wanna know... *laughing harder*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Wed,
21 Jan 1998, James F. Wood 253-7886 wrote:
>
Cybersex on here???WOW Got for it
>
"The Old Hippie"
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:45:28 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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In a
message dated 1/20/98 10:07:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET
writes:
> I dont think the usage of the words
fag or queer was meant as
> dergogatory, one must understand that at
this time society had not gone
> through the changes resulkting from
political correctness. At the time the
> book was writtne, and in fact burroughs books
as well, this was a common
> term. Kerouac himself was never an admited homosexual he had experimented
> on more than a few occasions. I read in a book called Angel Headed
> hipster ( a biography of Kerouac) that
Ginsberg had had his first sexual
> experince with Kerouac, he basically jerked
him off in an alley or
> something like that. Kerouac never
publically spoke of these experinces
> but he did speak highly of gays, saying some
of the greatest people to
> have lived were gays, or those who made the
biggest artistic impact.
> Lindsay
>
> p.s. am only new to the list Julien but i
have to agree with you, its too
> time consuming to have to sift through a
bunch of mail that is not at all
> beat realted, but i do enjoy alot of what
people have to say so i will try
> to stay up to date reading the mail and
deleting stuff im not interested
Does
this mean that you will be deleting passages unrelated to the issue of
who was
jerking whose johnson?
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:44:43 -0800
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From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Looking for these literary
journals...
Comments:
To: tkc@zipcon.com
MIME-Version:
1.0
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John
Bryan first started the Open City periodical in San Francisco in San
Francisco
then moved to Los Angeles. It was the first alternative free
weekly.
It had Neal as its first cover story. The 201st issue of Open City,
a
member of the Alternative Press Syndicate published in 1980 by Renaissance
Press,
San Francisco, is a very interesting unauthorized biography of
Timothy
Leary by John.
John
Bryan was a free lance journalist before dropping out to start Open
City in
San Francisco.
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Tom Christopher <tkc@zipcon.com>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Tuesday, January 20, 1998 8:43 PM
Subject:
Re: Looking for these literary journals...
>open
city was an underground tabloid published by john bryant in LA in
>the 1960s.
they're really rare.
>
>john
bryant (bryan?....no, i think bryant) was publishing a similar
>paper
in san francisco a couple of years ago, though i can't think of
>its
name.
>
>open
city was the first place to publish bukowski, and it seems some of
>his
earliest stuff, maybe in the city lights anthology is about the
>paper
>
>?where
did i read the story that bryant was a graphic artist somewhere,
>and
he was told to airbrush the baby jesus' balls off a classical
>painting,
so it could be used for a newspaper ad, and he said fukthishit
>and
started open city?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:14:22 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: John Arthur Maynard
<prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: "The Beat Generation" by
Bruce Cook
Mime-Version:
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At
16:23 1/20/98 -0600, you wrote:
>I
just saw this book in the window of my neighborhood used book shop (the
>store
was closed so I couldn't examine it more closely). Has anyone read
>this
book? Is it significant/worth reading?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Jym
>
IMHO,
yes. I also hear it's been re-issued.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:31:07 PST
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From: john boggs
<jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: kerouac as poet
Content-Type:
text/plain
I am
two days new to beat-l and have been looking for somewhere to jump
into
the discussion without disturbing the natural flow of conversation.
here
goes, please forgive any faux-pas.
somewhat
indirectly on the subject of whether jack kerouac was a good
poet, I
was at the cleveland museum of art with a very good friend of
mine.
we disagree vehemtly on the subject of modern art. he kept trying
to
logically analyze pieces of contemporary art, with the result that it
was far
inferior to the great masters of old. he, and many others, don't
realise
art isn't a dialectical process, it's about feeling and
intuition.
you either like it or you don't, and very often (especially
with
20th century art like picassso, gorecki and the beats) there is no
easy
logical explanation.
it's
only my opinion is that kerouac is a very good poet, perhaps even a
great
one (like ginsberg or pound), but with an art as esoteric as
poetry
is, an opinion is really all that matters... you can't write up a
mathematical
proof to determine who's a good poet and who's not. as the
philosopher
santayana said- it's more important to know what you like
than to
know why you like it.
p.s.
what on earth is cybersex? (i've only been online for four days and
am
clueless about this)
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:41:30 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
In-Reply-To:
<v01510100b0e6f2b7d8e3@[128.125.227.33]>
Mime-Version:
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>Has
anyone seen the movie "Pull My Daisy?" How is it?
amici,
i've
the italian translation of a "pull my daisy" poem (not movie)
from
the source poem written by Allen Ginsberg,
Jack
Kerouac, Neal Cassady 1948-1950? 1961,
(...)
Pull my daisy
tip my cup
all my doors are open
Cut my thoughts
for coconuts
all my eggs are broken
(...)
the
italian translation is very hardcore, ahem...
what it
do means exactly "pull my daisy"?
---
saluti,
Rinaldo. * a not competent beetle *
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:39:03 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: some sliced writings
In-Reply-To:
<19980120123242.27688.qmail@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version:
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#1.
what's in my mind?
Shokkee
<Shokkee@aol.com> wrote:
>
> A
drunken man staggers in to a Catholic church and
>
sits down in a confession box and says nothing.
>
>
The bewildered priest coughs to attract his attention,
>
but still the man says nothing.
>
>
The priest then knocks on the wall three times in a
>
final attempt to get the man to speak.
>
>
Finally, the drunk replies: "No use knockin' mate,
>
there's no paper in this one either."
---
#2.
yesterday was 1968 or 1969?
I've decided to finally publish
correspondence I received from Charles
Manson...
---
#3. THE
WORLD BOOK SALESMAN by
Raymond Carver
He
holds conversation sacred
though
a dying art. Smiling,
by
turns he is part toady,
part
Oberfuhrer. Knowing when
is the
secret.
Out of
the slim briefcase come
maps of
all the world;
deserts, oceans,
photographs,
artwork--
it is
all there, all there
for the
asking
as the
doors swing open, crack
or
slam.
In the
empty
rooms
each evening, he eats
alone,
watches television, reads
the
newspaper with lust
that
begins and ends in the fingertips.
There
is no God,
and
converstation is a dying art.
(c)
Estate of Raymond Carver, 1989
(c)
minimumfax@flashnet.it
---
#4.
William S. Burroughs, member of the
American Academy and Institute of Arts
and Letters and Commandeur de l'Ordre des
Arts et des Lettres of France.
Jeff
Taylor taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU writes the following passages
from
WSB's preface to Mohamed Choukri's book _Jean Genet in Tangier_:
"[Genet
said,] 'I'm neither Existentialist nor Absurdist. I don't
believe
in such classifications. I'm only a writer, either a good one
or a
bad one.' I have been equally impatient with such
classifications.
Am I a Beat writer? a black humorist? and so on.
There
is good writing and bad writing. Giving names in meaningless.
[...]
This
shared conviction made it possible for Jean Genet and me to
communicate
in Chicago despite my atrocious French and his
non-existent
English. Had he considered himself an Existentialist or
an
Absurdist, communication would have been impossible."
---
#5.
WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS says (a word of warning)
Mary
Maconnell wrote:
>
any advice anyone can give a person not yet versed with Burroughs.
"
I saw a
picture of a balloon suddenly and unexpectedly soaring
and
some people still holding onto the ropes connected to the
balloon
were suddenly jerked into the air and most of them
didn't
have the survival IQ to let go in time. Second later they
are
sixty, a hundred feet off the ground. Those who didn't let
go fell
off at five hundred or thousand feet. A basic survival
lesson
is: Learn to let go.
Put it another way: Never hang on when
your Guardian tells
you to
let go.
RIGHT NOW.
Suppose you were holding one of the
ropes? Would you
have
let go in time, which is, of course, at first upward yank?
I'll
tell you something interesting. You qould have a much
better
chance to let go in time now that you have read this
paragraph
than if you hadn't read it. Writing, if it is anything,
is a
word of warning...
LET GO!
"
---
#6.
BEETLE BAILEY www.cartoon.org
IT SAYS HERE THAT
THE FORMULA FOR
COCA-COLA IS STILL
A SECRET
INTERESTING
BUT THE FORMULA FOR A BOMB
TO BLOW UP WHOLE CITIES IS
ON THE INTERNET
---
rinaldo
21/jan/98
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:29:25 EST
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From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 98-01-21 12:49:26 EST, you write:
>
pull my daisy
Rinaldo--
nothing.
as a concept it has no logical merit to those trying to find common
ground
between this writer and that writer and this genre and human minds et
cetera.
"Tira la mia pratolina!" <---
thats it. in italiano, that's exactly what it
means.
what
does your translation say?
--Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:05:00 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: movies
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In a
message dated 20-Jan-98 11:46:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Sadenigma@AOL.COM
writes:
<<
does anyone know if WSB had a favorite movie? what was it? or if
he
liked movies at all?
chad >>
I'm
guessing it was probably "Bambi," because of the guns and all.
Anyone?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:48:45 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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i
sincerely doubt that ginsberg had his first gay experiance with
kerouac
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:06:20 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
In-Reply-To: <ca30c0fb.34c65aa7@aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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rinaldo:
call me
immature, perverted or whatever but i always (since a few monthes
ago
wheni got the book) thought it was sexual. but then again, ginny, you
may be
right
it is
absurd. or as wsb quoted someone else "nothing is true. everything is
permitted."
randy
At
03:29 PM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>In
a message dated 98-01-21 12:49:26 EST, you write:
>
>>
pull my daisy
>
>Rinaldo--
>nothing.
as a concept it has no logical merit to those trying to find common
>ground
between this writer and that writer and this genre and human minds et
>cetera.
> "Tira la mia pratolina!" <---
thats it. in italiano, that's exactly
what it
>means.
>what
does your translation say?
>--Ginny.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:08:21 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "Kirk A. Markus"
<markus@ENDINFOSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version:
1.0
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There
is no doubt that Ginsberg had a huge crush on Kerouac and they were
spending alot of
time
together when Ginsy was just starting at Columbia - probably 18 years old
at the time.
K was a
very handsome man at that time. So I think it is very possible that
Kerouac might
have
been the first.
Also, Neal Cassidy was Ginsy first real love and
Neal messed around with him on
several
occasions
but did not return his "true love."
It took a long time for G to get
over him and I
don't
think he found a true love until Peter Orlovsky.
Read
Ann Charters "Kerouac" bio and "Angel Headed Hipster" or
Nicosia "Memeory
Babe"
for
more.
Kirk A.
Markus
"All
that is gold does not glitter;
not all those that wander are lost."
--J. R. R. Tolkien
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:35:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: movies/Chapaqua
Mime-Version:
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Nothing
to do what WSB's favorite movies are/were, but
_Chapaqua_
is now in release (movie w/ cinematography
by
Robert Frank, and stars Ginsberg, Orlovsky, Burroughs,
Monk,
etc.). It was a 1966 (65?) release and
won an Italian
film
award. Check out your video stores. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:45:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: cybersex
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
*laughing hysterically* I wonder what Beat cybersex would look/sound
>
like.... On second thought, maybe I don't wanna know... *laughing harder*
well,
honey , i take my sex pretty serious, don't find cyber sex too
hysterical
or jerking off outlandish,i remember phone sex fondly, but
most of
it for me is fun and a real grind. I
asked william about his
sex
life in his late 70's and he said
"well
usually when the matter comes up, by the time i get on the phone
and the
opportunity is there it doesn't matter anymore". Of his
reaction
to my blessed promiscuity (that i much enjoyed) he was neither
judgemental
or at all interested. I heard once when
he was describing
me to
someone, he said with a thin lipped smile, well she is very
popular
with the gentlemen. He was much more
interested in the fact
that my
word was very good, a developed sense of humor, (he also liked
people
to cook) and that while i was a self determined Bitch, i did not
do
underhanded or mean things. Once i decided to marry i never had a
moment
that it wasn't easy to be faithful, before i was married and
before
aids came in the picture i usually took a new lover every month
or so
and kept some of the old ones for over twenty years. It is a
different
time. The miracle of my happily spent
youth was i never got a
sid.
well the crabs once. could all this be much more about my sex life
than
any one ever wanted to hear. if so back
channel the flames because
nonbeat
flames actually don't have to be posted to the list.
I
really laugh about when i asked william about his sex life, which i
never
took his answer as the gospel but he did love my audacity at
times.
William was much more elegant than i am, i am very gauche, but
actually
becomming more civilized by the decade.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:55:22 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: kerouac as poet
MIME-Version:
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john
boggs wrote:
>
> I
am two days new to beat-l and have been looking for somewhere to jump
>
into the discussion without disturbing the natural flow of conversation.
>
here goes, please forgive any faux-pas.
>
>
somewhat indirectly on the subject of whether jack kerouac was a good
>
poet, I was at the cleveland museum of art with a very good friend of
>
mine. we disagree vehemtly on the subject of modern art. he kept trying
> to
logically analyze pieces of contemporary art, with the result that it
>
was far inferior to the great masters of old. he, and many others, don't
>
realise art isn't a dialectical process, it's about feeling and
>
intuition. you either like it or you don't, and very often (especially
>
with 20th century art like picassso, gorecki and the beats) there is no
>
easy logical explanation.
>
>
it's only my opinion is that kerouac is a very good poet, perhaps even a
>
great one (like ginsberg or pound), but with an art as esoteric as
>
poetry is, an opinion is really all that matters... you can't write up a
>
mathematical proof to determine who's a good poet and who's not. as the
>
philosopher santayana said- it's more important to know what you like
>
than to know why you like it.
>
>
p.s. what on earth is cybersex? (i've only been online for four days and
> am
clueless about this)
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
i found
your argument concerning Kerouac and poetics very well put.
as for
cybersex - i'm clueless as well.....it seems to be
physiologically
impossible and might create quite a mess on the computer
screen!
david
rhaesa (race)
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:45:09 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: cybersex
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Actually,
Patricia, that was really cool. I enjoyed reading that. I'm only
22, so
I don't remember AIDS NOT being in the picture. I don't know about
most of
my generation, but I'm careful. Man, that must have been fun...
Thanks
for your anecdote. We early-twenty-somethings do have our share of
fun,
but WOW, that must have been cool. I guess we haven't gotten more
promiscuous,
we've just gotten weirder. *big grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Wed,
21 Jan 1998, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
well, honey , i take my sex pretty serious, don't find cyber sex too
>
hysterical or jerking off outlandish,i remember phone sex fondly, but
>
most of it for me is fun and a real grind.
I asked william about his
>
sex life in his late 70's and he said
>
"well usually when the matter comes up, by the time i get on the phone
>
and the opportunity is there it doesn't matter anymore". Of his
>
reaction to my blessed promiscuity (that i much enjoyed) he was neither
>
judgemental or at all interested. I
heard once when he was describing
> me
to someone, he said with a thin lipped smile, well she is very
>
popular with the gentlemen. He was much
more interested in the fact
>
that my word was very good, a developed sense of humor, (he also liked
>
people to cook) and that while i was a self determined Bitch, i did not
> do
underhanded or mean things. Once i decided to marry i never had a
>
moment that it wasn't easy to be faithful, before i was married and
>
before aids came in the picture i usually took a new lover every month
> or
so and kept some of the old ones for over twenty years. It is a
>
different time. The miracle of my
happily spent youth was i never got a
>
sid. well the crabs once. could all this be much more about my sex life
>
than any one ever wanted to hear. if so
back channel the flames because
>
nonbeat flames actually don't have to be posted to the list.
> I
really laugh about when i asked william about his sex life, which i
>
never took his answer as the gospel but he did love my audacity at
>
times. William was much more elegant than i am, i am very gauche, but
>
actually becomming more civilized by the decade.
>
patricia
>
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:53:58 -0500
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From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: The linguistics of cybersex
In-Reply-To: <34C698FA.7646@midusa.net>
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>
> i
found your argument concerning Kerouac and poetics very well put.
> as
for cybersex - i'm clueless as well.....it seems to be
>
physiologically impossible and might create quite a mess on the computer
>
screen!
>
>
david rhaesa (race)
>
salina, Kansas
>
*rolling on the floor* David, you
really have a way with words!
And I
have a very visual imagination. Ick. *laughing* I don't remember how
the
whole cybersex topic came up... Was it me? Whoops... Oh, yeah, my sick
imagination
was provoked by someone asking if anyone had ever proposed
marriage
on Beat-L. I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.... how horrific,
impersonal
and detached would Kerouac have found such a thing as
cybersex?
I mean yeah, it can be fun... talk about using language in a new
and
strange way. A whole new grammar, new syntax almost. *unbuttoning my
shirt*
*just kidding* --Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:46:54 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To:
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For
Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
reciprocate
Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
dont
think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...
On Wed, 21 Jan
1998,
Kirk A. Markus wrote:
>
There is no doubt that Ginsberg had a huge crush on Kerouac and they were
> spending alot of
>
time together when Ginsy was just starting at Columbia - probably 18 years old
> at the time.
> K
was a very handsome man at that time. So I think it is very possible that
> Kerouac might
>
have been the first.
>
>
Also, Neal Cassidy was Ginsy first real
love and Neal messed around with him
on
> several
>
occasions but did not return his "true love." It took a long time for G to
get
> over him and I
>
don't think he found a true love until Peter Orlovsky.
>
>
Read Ann Charters "Kerouac" bio and "Angel Headed Hipster"
or Nicosia "Memeory
> Babe"
>
for more.
>
>
>
Kirk A. Markus
>
>
"All that is gold does not glitter;
> not all those that wander are lost."
> --J. R. R. Tolkien
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:05:08 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
>
For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
>
reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
wow, i
didn't know we had someone who know jack from that time, how did
you
know him or are you a scholar, is this information based on some
material
that i can access.
patricia
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Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:18:09 -0800
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From: eric mayhew
<mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
>
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
>
>
> For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
>
> reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
>
>
wow, i didn't know we had someone who know jack from that time, how did
>
you know him or are you a scholar, is this information based on some
>
material that i can access.
>
patricia
this
stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
eric