=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:24:52 -0500
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: kerouac as poet
In-Reply-To: <34C698FA.7646@midusa.net>
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At
06:55 PM 1/21/98 -0600, you wrote:
>john
boggs wrote:
>>
>>
I am two days new to beat-l and have been looking for somewhere to jump
>>
into the discussion without disturbing the natural flow of conversation.
>>
here goes, please forgive any faux-pas.
>>
>>
somewhat indirectly on the subject of whether jack kerouac was a good
>>
poet, I was at the cleveland museum of art with a very good friend of
>>
mine. we disagree vehemtly on the subject of modern art. he kept trying
>>
to logically analyze pieces of contemporary art, with the result that it
>>
was far inferior to the great masters of old. he, and many others, don't
>>
realise art isn't a dialectical process, it's about feeling and
>>
intuition. you either like it or you don't, and very often (especially
>>
with 20th century art like picassso, gorecki and the beats) there is no
>>
easy logical explanation.
>>
>>
it's only my opinion is that kerouac is a very good poet, perhaps even a
>>
great one (like ginsberg or pound), but with an art as esoteric as
>>
poetry is, an opinion is really all that matters... you can't write up a
>>
mathematical proof to determine who's a good poet and who's not. as the
>>
philosopher santayana said- it's more important to know what you like
>>
than to know why you like it.
>>
>>
p.s. what on earth is cybersex? (i've only been online for four days and
>>
am clueless about this)
>>
>>
______________________________________________________
>>
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>i
found your argument concerning Kerouac and poetics very well put.
>as
for cybersex - i'm clueless as well.....it seems to be
>physiologically
impossible and might create quite a mess on the computer
>screen!
>
>david
rhaesa (race)
>salina,
Kansas
>
>
I can't believe noone knows about cybersex. When I first got on the net,
I had
it all the time in chat rooms. That was
just horny typing back and
forth
about what you were going to do to her, and she back what she would
do to
you. These days, with the little TV
cameras, people are doing nude
shows
with consenting picturecamera people over internet telephone and
video
hookups. With 200 mhz of speed and a
big modem and camera, you can
talk
and see one another. I have a friend
who does it, but not cybersex.
Cybersex
is old hat, but it was sort of empty I remember. I haven't done
it
since 1995.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:15:42 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
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From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Despite
the fact that I think this is a rather silly thread, the idea that Jack
had
no
homosexual experiences at all flies in the face of all the evidence. Jack,
especially
when very drunk, would make it with men.,
He is the one that said
"Blow
jobs,
but no assholes". Jack strikes me
as primarily heterosexual for sure, but
by
no
means exclusively.
James
Stauffer
Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
>
reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
>
dont think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:19:46 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: cybersex (was Re: kerouac as poet)
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mike
rice wrote:
> I haven't done
> it
since 1995.
>
>
Mike Rice
rumor
has it that according to Divine law two years of abstinence makes
one a
cyber-virgin all over again :)
gypsy
davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:10:01 EST
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From: Surubu1 <Surubu1@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Hello. This is new hat to me...only first day on
the list, so bear with me.
Just
wondering if anyone has seen the poems Ginzy wrote in the months just
after
Kerouac died. One in particular is
titled "Memory Gardens" written in
October
of 1969, and can be found in The Fall of America, 1972 by Allen. The
last
stanza reads:
Well,
while I'm here I'll
do the work --
and
what's the Work?
To ease the pain of living.
Everything
else, drunken
dumbshow.
I think
this is quite obviously a reference to a passage from Visions of
Gerard
(my personal Kerouac fave). It reads:
"I curse and rant nowaday because I
don't want to have to work to make a
living
and do childish work for other men (any lout can move a board from
hither
to yonder) but'd rather sleep all day and stay
it up all night
scrubbling
these visions of the world which is onlyan ethereal flower of a
world,
the coal, the chute, the fire and the ashes all, imaginary blossoms,
nonetheless,
"Somebody's got to do the work-a the world"...
I don't
know if Jack and Allen consummated their love; I say their love
because
I feel that there was a definate love from both parties. Whether or
not
that Jack's love was the same as Ginsberg's is something I'm not sure
we'll
ever positively know. I doubt that it
was the same. But, these poems
written
in mourning make it clear to me that
Allen
was in love with Jack all along.
Anyone
have any further insights???
Sundee
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:43:11 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Surubu1
wrote:
>
But, these poems
>
written in mourning make it clear to me that
>
Allen was in love with Jack all along.
my
impression is that Allen had an enormous capacity to LOVE friends in
many
different layers and depths and that the preoccupation with the
sexuality
questions missed much of the power of love in this kind man.
gypsy
davey
salina,
Kansas
>
>
Anyone have any further insights???
>
>
Sundee
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:57:54 -0800
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From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
James
Stauffer wrote:
<<the
idea that Jack had no homosexual experiences at all flies in the face
of all
the evidence. >>
it's
also absurd to call a person who has had sexual experiences with
someone
of the same gender a homosexual, based simply on that fact. many
men
& women have such experiences and remain essentially heterosexual or
bisexual. people experience different types of love
and also often just
want to
experiment.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:48:16 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: eric mayhew
<mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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David
Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>
Surubu1 wrote:
>
> But, these poems
>
> written in mourning make it clear to me that
>
> Allen was in love with Jack all along.
>
> my
impression is that Allen had an enormous capacity to LOVE friends in
>
many different layers and depths and that the preoccupation with the
>
sexuality questions missed much of the power of love in this kind man.
>
>
gypsy davey
>
salina, Kansas
>
>
>
> Anyone have any further insights???
>
>
>
> Sundee
It
seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
ordinary
man. Love was definitely a subjective
understanding between
many of
the beat generation people.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:49:07 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
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From: eric mayhew
<mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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sherri
wrote:
>
>
James Stauffer wrote:
>
>
<<the idea that Jack had no homosexual experiences at all flies in the
face
> of
all the evidence. >>
>
>
it's also absurd to call a person who has had sexual experiences with
>
someone of the same gender a homosexual, based simply on that fact. many
>
men & women have such experiences and remain essentially heterosexual or
>
bisexual. people experience different
types of love and also often just
>
want to experiment.
>
>
ciao, sherri
i think
you hit the nail on the head sherri.
eric
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:37:58 -0500
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From: Thom Colahan
<rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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On Wed,
21 Jan 1998, Tom Christopher wrote:
> i
sincerely doubt that ginsberg had his first gay experiance with
>
kerouac
>
Just
saying what i read decside for yourself, i dont believe i made it
up:)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:46:30 -0500
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From: Thom Colahan
<rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <34C6C574.235F@sunflower.com>
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Read it
in a book called Angel Headed Hipster like i said in my origanal
comment,
i guess some of dont read very thoroughly.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:02:33 -0500
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From: Thom Colahan
<rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>
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For
some reason i think a lot of people here have missed the point we are
all to
caught up in paranoia and defending our actions/words that we are
unable
to really be open to any kind of discussion. I hate to use the word
but
such close-mindness is not very "beat". excuse the bloody cliche, how
can a
discussion of beat topics or any topics exist when no one will
listen
and i dont listen either so i will go back to talking to myself
about
"beat realted topics" i listne better:)
BI BI Lindsay
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:48:44 -0600
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From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Changes in Naked Lunch text
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I have
recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
the
text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
the
1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of
typos,
but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked
only
the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a sickness",
so they
may be more changes later in the text.)
[listed
by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]
xxxvii/ix.3from
bttm delaudid --> dilaudid
xlii/xiv.3from
bttm a vast hive --> vast hives
xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg --> Heisenberg
xlvi/xviii.9fr
btm Occam --> Ockham
xlvi/xviii.7fr
btm Phlilosophicus -->
Philosophicus
It
would be interesting to know who made these changes, and on what
basis,
and whether there were changes made from the original 1959
Olympia
Press edition and the 1962 First American edition....
Awhile
back on this list I noted that the 1964 french translation of
NL had
both omissions *and* additions compared to the 1992 english
text--but
perhaps it *did* faithfully follow one of the earlier
english
editions.
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:11:22 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
In-Reply-To: <34C6C574.235F@sunflower.com>
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Sorry,
I didnt mean to make anyone think that I knew Jack Kerouac. I just
get
this feeling, from his writing and stuff, that he wasn't a homosexual.
On Wed,
21 Jan 1998, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
>
>
> For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
>
> reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
>
>
wow, i didn't know we had someone who know jack from that time, how did
>
you know him or are you a scholar, is this information based on some
>
material that i can access.
>
patricia
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 05:33:29 PST
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From: Julian Ruck
<julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: The linguistics of cybersex
Content-Type:
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well, as far as c-sex goes...
i've tried it...a few times...*g*..
but i think that as far as the beats would
have been concerned...
they
would have had no problem doing it...
would have been better than going at it
alone....
*g*...
-julian
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:52:19 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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In a
message dated 1/21/98 10:51:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
writes:
> It
seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
> ordinary man.
I think
you're overstating this, Eric. They
were ordinary men who wrote well
and
took advantage of the notoriety afforded by the Howl Obscenity bust. They
had the
talent to continue the wave after the initial burst of publicity put
them in
the public eye. Meanwhile, they were
youngish fellows trying to get
laid as
often and as variously as possible. We
all "understand love" in
different,
very personal ways...even Ginsberg, I'm certain. To hold him up as
having
the eefuss eyefuss the love thang is the same kind of hyperbole he and
Jack
used to extol the superhuman sexual powers of Neal. It is part of the
Beat
mystique or mythos or whatever you wish to call it. These were real
people
subject to the same faults and flaws and foibles, the same flights of
genius,
the same flashes of brilliance that are common to all of us.
Understand,
please, that I am not attempting to minimize their accomplishments
or the
value of their works. I wouldn't be on
the list if I didn't believe in
the
greatness of the artistry. Nor did I
intend at the top of this post, to
suggest
that their reknown was mere happenstance resulting from the bust. I
have a
tendency to oversimplify...I'm certain their works would have come to
light
if the bust had never occured.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:38:34 EST
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From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: scope
I'd
like to use the recent postings on cybersex to illustrate a point I
made in
my last message on the scope of beat-l.
One or two messages on
cybersex
woudn't have been so bad. But common
sense should prevail. A
thread
that has nothing to do with Beat authors and their works has gone
on too
long. I'm sure there are more
appropriate lists to discuss
cybersex. So let's move on to topics that are relevant
to the list.
Bill
Gargan, listowner.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:01:08 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Kerouac as a straight queer
Comments:
cc: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
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Nancy
B. Brodsky wrote:
>For
Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to
>reciprocate
Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I
>dont
think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...
YOU
HAVE NOT DONE YOUR HOMEWORK. GET YE TO THE LIBRARY.
-JOHN
HASBROUCK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:25:16 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Kerouac as a straight queer
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eric
mayhew wrote:
>this
stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
>eric
I wish
to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
delicate
issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
authority.
While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
right
over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
well-articulated
position.
Now,
while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
well as
receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
been
well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
course
is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
HOMOSEXUAL
to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
there
are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
some
question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
opinion
on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
be
deeply involved with research in the field.
If I
may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
like to
suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
know of
no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
He
himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
he took
part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
so? Any
comments?
-John
Hasbrouck
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:29:53 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
In-Reply-To: <34C71077.353A@tezcat.com>
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I
personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would
attract
homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Thu,
22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
eric mayhew wrote:
>
>
>this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
>
>eric
>
> I
wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
>
delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
>
authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
>
right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
>
well-articulated position.
>
>
Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
>
well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
>
been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
>
course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
>
HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
>
there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
>
some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
>
opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
> be
deeply involved with research in the field.
>
> If
I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
>
like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
>
know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
> He
himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
> he
took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
>
so? Any comments?
>
>
-John Hasbrouck
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:30:18 +0100
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From: Nils-Oivind Haagensen
<Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as poet
In-Reply-To:
<"noralf.uib.220:22.01.98.05.05.51"@uib.no>
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I
haven't followed this thread, i just stumbeled on it today, so if i'm
repeating
somebody, i'm sorry... Heres my two cents anyway:
According
to Jack he was a poet in all his writing (in the preface to
Pomes
all Sizes:"you call yourselves poets writing short little lines, i'm
a poet
but i write lines many pages long...") and that's because, in my
view,
he doesn't generate plots in his novels, but concentrates on "the
details
of life," the details of life being Neal Cassadys kitchen zink or
the
slickwood stools of an old diner; the details of life being, also, as
in
Proust, the few moments of self-recognition, of identification with
the
flow of time; the details of life this way being the poetry of life.
I
consider him a poet in that respect. Is he a good one, a great one?
(By
who's standard?) I don't know, who's to say?
regards
nh
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:44:02 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: cybersex
MIME-Version:
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patricia,
i'm so glad to be back and getting your thoughts and posts and
openness.
in the 60s i got everything a girl wouldn't want. remember the free
clinics
of the 60s? i was a frequent flyer back then.
mc
Patricia
Elliott wrote:
>
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
>
>
> *laughing hysterically* I wonder what Beat cybersex would look/sound
>
> like.... On second thought, maybe I don't wanna know... *laughing harder*
>
>
well, honey , i take my sex pretty serious, don't find cyber sex too
>
hysterical or jerking off outlandish,i remember phone sex fondly, but
>
most of it for me is fun and a real grind.
I asked william about his
>
sex life in his late 70's and he said
>
"well usually when the matter comes up, by the time i get on the phone
>
and the opportunity is there it doesn't matter anymore". Of his
>
reaction to my blessed promiscuity (that i much enjoyed) he was neither
>
judgemental or at all interested. I
heard once when he was describing
> me
to someone, he said with a thin lipped smile, well she is very
>
popular with the gentlemen. He was much
more interested in the fact
>
that my word was very good, a developed sense of humor, (he also liked
>
people to cook) and that while i was a self determined Bitch, i did not
> do
underhanded or mean things. Once i decided to marry i never had a
>
moment that it wasn't easy to be faithful, before i was married and
>
before aids came in the picture i usually took a new lover every month
> or
so and kept some of the old ones for over twenty years. It is a
>
different time. The miracle of my
happily spent youth was i never got a
>
sid. well the crabs once. could all this be much more about my sex life
>
than any one ever wanted to hear. if so
back channel the flames because
>
nonbeat flames actually don't have to be posted to the list.
> I
really laugh about when i asked william about his sex life, which i
>
never took his answer as the gospel but he did love my audacity at
>
times. William was much more elegant than i am, i am very gauche, but
>
actually becomming more civilized by the decade.
>
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:44:27 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
Dennis
wrote:
<<It
seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
> ordinary man.
I think
you're overstating this, Eric. >>
Dennis,
i can't agree with you. there are
people in this world who having
an
unusual amount of love to give. Mother
Theresa comes to mind. i think
both AG and JK (Jack's was more abstract and
personal and screwed up with
his
demons, maybe) had this, but Allen was a true lionheart - anyone who has
seen
him participate in rallies, watched him talking to people can see this
amazing
spirit of love in him. i don't think
Eric was referring to Allen's
sexual
love, rather all forms of his love. his
overwhelming love for
humankind.
i don't
see how this can be construed as AG being a saint, perfect or
anything
else. just a man with an amazing,
extraordinary capacity for love.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:15:54 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: scope
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thanks,
bill
mc
Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
I'd like to use the recent postings on cybersex to illustrate a point I
>
made in my last message on the scope of beat-l. One or two messages on
>
cybersex woudn't have been so bad. But
common sense should prevail. A
>
thread that has nothing to do with Beat authors and their works has gone
> on
too long. I'm sure there are more
appropriate lists to discuss
>
cybersex. So let's move on to topics
that are relevant to the list.
>
Bill Gargan, listowner.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:48:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: movies
In-Reply-To: <3e089546.34c662fe@aol.com>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Wed,
21 Jan 1998, IDDHI wrote:
> In
a message dated 20-Jan-98 11:46:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
Sadenigma@AOL.COM writes:
>
>
<< does anyone know if WSB had a favorite movie? what was it? or if he
> liked movies at all?
>
>
> chad >>
I did
an interview with Burroughs in which the relevant topic of
discussion
was filmic aspects of his work. We talked a bit about movies,
and one
that he particularly liked was "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" He
didn't
like any of the film adaptations of Hemingway's books. The last
movie
he had seen at the time I did the interview with him was Outbreak.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:11:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: love love love
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
Jeez, has anyone ever had cybersex on here? Scary thought....
>
>Happen
all the time, just got to look for subtle clues.
like
the name of this list?
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:12:18 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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Nancy,
I think
alot of the confusion around this topic is that we are in an era (post
stonewall,
or whatever) when people are being asked to think of themselves as
either
gay or straight. I think it was Gore
Vidal who said that there are only
homosexual
acts not homsexual people or something to that effect. Through much
of
history
individuals who whose history was almost but not entirely hetersexual
saw
themselves
as heterosexual. Now they are being
urged to define themnselves as
gay
or
bi. This was not yet true when Jack and
Allan were young. And as Sherri and
others
have pointed out a great many people have some experience outside their
dominant
gender definition. I think you are
right, Jack was not a
homosexual--but
he had
a fairly extensive history of occasional homosexual acts.
James
Stauffer
Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
Sorry, I didnt mean to make anyone think that I knew Jack Kerouac. I just
>
get this feeling, from his writing and stuff, that he wasn't a homosexual.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:10:01 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: movies
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:48:09 -0500
from
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Neil or
anyone else on the list: I saw a film
on witchcraft that WSB narrated
about
20 years ago. I think it was called
"Haxan" or something like that.
If
anyone
has details: director, correct title,
etc. please post.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:28:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
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Jeff
Taylor wrote:
>
> It
would be interesting to know who made these changes, and on what
>
basis, and whether there were changes made from the original 1959
>
Olympia Press edition and the 1962 First American edition....
>
>
Jeff Taylor
>
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>
*******
i think
this seems very interesting. it
demonstrates that slight
changes
can change meaning and perhaps extends the notion of "word" as
"virus"
to the point of "letters/characters" as "innoculation".
i hope
that someone provides insight into the sources and motives for
these
changes in text.
gypsy
davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:37:52 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: The word "random" and WSB
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This is
only tangentially Beat in content. Feel
free to delete.
Beat-related:
my
introduction to William S. Burroughs was a spoken word LP called
"Breakthrough
in the Grey Room". At one point i
had parts of it
memorized. One of the tracks (i believe a lecture at
Naropa) discusses
the
ideas behind "random" cut-ups and the possibility of
"randomness" in
general.
Non-Beat-related.
I'm
currently working as an unofficial ambassador for the president
(named
Tuna) of an intercollegiate debate organization on eDebate-L. It
is a
controversy that is long long in the making and is now embroiled in
discussions
of organizational Constitution and By-Laws.
Semi-Beat-Related:
Ironically,
the main controversy currently is about sections in the
By-Laws
which employ the term "random" in an aspirational or imperative
sense. It seems to me, from my memory, that the
words of Burroughs
concerning
"random" and "randomness" might come in handy in my
ambassadorial
mode (side note: the president "Tuna" is currently reading
"Ghost
of a Chance" and his critical commentary is one word: "nice.")
If
people can backchannel me specific references and quotations
concerning
the meanings of "random" from WSB or other beat authors I
would
appreciate it.
Non-Beat
Related:
i have
done a search of Random in Bartlett's and found a couple nice
quotations
(but only a couple) to provide some literary backing to a
post
i'll probably design to send out by Sunday on eDebate.
Beat-Related:
Certainly,
the notion of "randomness" has more literary grounding in the
era
spawned by the beats with the inclusion of "spontaneous prose" and
"cut-ups"
as part of the literary process.
Please
send comments backchannel as this doesn't seem to justify
bandwidth
(unless someone can find a way to turn the beat-related
portions
into an interesting thread).
thanks
in advance,
gypsy
davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:42:14 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980121170620.008694e0@pop.southeast.net>
Mime-Version:
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Ginny
and Randy, grazie per l'aiuto, (thanx for help me),
the
literally italian translation of "pull my daisy"
is:
"raccogli la mia margherita". the daisy (margherita)
is a
fair flower with white petals that bloom in springtime
and
summertime (in Italy and United States of America, i suppose).
in
italian Margherita is also a first name of a person (female)
i dunno
if it is too in american,
anyway
the meaning of "margherita" is a lot poetic.
the
lovers shed the petals as a romantic rite.
the
"pull my daisy" has the meaning of someone to offer
a
flower (exactly _my_ flower) as Kerouac poetry (id est).
_but_
the italian translator writes:
Pull my daisy Prendimi il pisello
this
means that "pisello" has nothing to do with "margherita"
cuz of
"pisello=pea" nothing to do with "daisy"... im' very
abashed
but in italian slang "pisello"=_the sexual masculine organ_
that
cracks me up the poetry of the Kerouac poem (excuse me
Randy
but maybe the poetic group Ginsberg,Kerouac&Cassady have
a bit
confused a delicate concept, of course, if u are into a
trainspottingesque
plot u can only accept a phrase like "pull my daisy"
as
"gentle" feeling, id est Pull my daisy=Pull my sexual masculine
organ),
instead i think that Kerouac means "read my poem with a gentle
insight,
i'm a delicate man".
strange
fact of life, the translator is Carlo Alberto Corsi
who
fine translated in the mid 70s the collected Gregory Corso poems,
now in
1997 (20 year later what's up!) he is following with such
a
shoking trend i noticed also in Allen Ginsberg italian translation by
an
another translator citicized to post-modernized poems which was
written
in the 50s or 60s'
i cant
imagine that Keroauc is a trainspotting-like character.
saluti
a tutti voi,
e
rigranzio per l'attenzione,
Rinaldo.
-------
randy
wrote:
>rinaldo:
>call
me immature, perverted or whatever but i always (since a few monthes
>ago
wheni got the book) thought it was sexual. but then again, ginny, you
>may
be right
>it
is absurd. or as wsb quoted someone else "nothing is true. everything is
>permitted."
>randy
>At
03:29 PM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>>In
a message dated 98-01-21 12:49:26 EST, you write:
>>
>>>
pull my daisy
>>
>>Rinaldo--
>>nothing.
as a concept it has no logical merit to those trying to find common
>>ground
between this writer and that writer and this genre and human minds et
>>cetera.
>> "Tira la mia pratolina!" <---
thats it. in italiano, that's exactly
>what
it
>>means.
>>what
does your translation say?
>>--Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:42:10 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
it has
nothing to do with being a homophobe, Sara, and everything to do with
careless,
facile and simplistic labelling. AG
considered himself gay, JK
didn't. i think they know better than we ever
can. if we get into
labelling,
then we have to consider the fact that JK had plenty of het sex -
which
would then indicate bisexuality; however, i think Jack would know
better
than any of us. i personally, living in
SF, have known many men who
have
had same sex experiences, some over a long period of time, whom i would
not label
as gay, nor do they call themselves that.
why do
we find it so necessary to stick people in little boxes?
ciao,
sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Thursday, January 22, 1998 8:06 AM
Subject:
Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
>I
personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would
>attract
homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
>
>On
Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
>>
eric mayhew wrote:
>>
>>
>this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
>>
>eric
>>
>>
I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
>>
delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
>>
authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
>>
right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
>>
well-articulated position.
>>
>>
Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
>>
well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
>>
been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
>>
course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
>>
HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
>>
there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
>>
some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
>>
opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
>>
be deeply involved with research in the field.
>>
>>
If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
>>
like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
>>
know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
>>
He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
>>
he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
>>
so? Any comments?
>>
>>
-John Hasbrouck
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:52:06 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew
<mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer
MIME-version:
1.0
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
> I
personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would
>
attract homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
> On
Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:
>
>
> eric mayhew wrote:
>
>
>
> >this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit
>
> >eric
>
>
>
> I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the
>
> delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and
>
> authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go
>
> right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,
>
> well-articulated position.
>
>
>
> Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as
>
> well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has
>
> been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of
>
> course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of
>
> HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while
>
> there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is
>
> some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My
>
> opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to
>
> be deeply involved with research in the field.
>
>
>
> If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would
>
> like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally
>
> know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.
>
> He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which
>
> he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or
>
> so? Any comments?
>
>
>
> -John Hasbrouck
>
>
My
comment was merely a statement with the intent of putting to rest any
thoughts
that Jack Kerouac was a homosexual. The
discussion seemed
somewhat
absurd to me based on my previous readings.
Sara, i
hereby will assure that i am in no way a homophobe. You should
not
make speculative statements based on a short comment you received
from me
over the internet.
If you
wish to further discuss this topic, I would be happy to share my
views.
Otherwise, let it be over and done with.
with
love
eric d.
mayhew
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:54:20 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew
<mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
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sherri
wrote:
>
>
Dennis wrote:
>
>
<<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
>
> ordinary man.
> I
think you're overstating this, Eric. >>
>
>
Dennis, i can't agree with you. there
are people in this world who having
> an
unusual amount of love to give. Mother
Theresa comes to mind. i think
>
both AG and JK (Jack's was more
abstract and personal and screwed up with
>
his demons, maybe) had this, but Allen was a true lionheart - anyone who has
>
seen him participate in rallies, watched him talking to people can see this
>
amazing spirit of love in him. i don't
think Eric was referring to Allen's
>
sexual love, rather all forms of his love.
his overwhelming love for
>
humankind.
>
> i
don't see how this can be construed as AG being a saint, perfect or
>
anything else. just a man with an
amazing, extraordinary capacity for love.
>
>
ciao, sherri
Sherri
thanks
for clearing up my statement. You truly
did have an
understanding
of what i was talking about. It is
clear that some people
see
love only in the physical, while others let it be part of their
entire
existence. There are many levels to
this love incorporation.
eric
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:33:03 -0500
Reply-To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mongo BearWolf
<mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>
Organization:
Dartmouth College
Subject: Allen Ginsberg Questions
Comments:
cc: kenr@paradisenet.cl
MIME-Version:
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Hi
Folks...
Ken, a
Canadian citizen residing in Chile, is doing some in-depth
research
on Allen Ginsberg. Since he has had
some difficulty finding
reference
works down there, he has asked me to pass some questions on to
the
list.
IMPORTANT: Since he is not subscribed, if you'd like to
address these
questions,
please be sure to reply to Ken directly at:
kenr@paradisenet.cl
And if
you'd like to copy me on your answers, that would be great!
Thanks!
--Mongo
=======
KEN'S QUESTIONS =======================>
Kaddish:
1.
"EMILY DICKINSON'S HORSES". I imagine he's referring to one of
Dickinson's
poems; Do you know which one?
2.
"CHEESEBOX PUBLIC SERVICE BUS". Does "public service" just
mean
it's a government-run bus service? As for cheesebox, I seem
to
remember that there was a brand of cheese years ago that came
in a
long yellow rectangular box. Do you think that's what he's
referring
to?
3.
"YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN ME IN WOODBINE". Woodbine, as far as I can
tell,
is
a town
in southern New Jersey. Did it have any particular significance
in
Ginsberg's
mother's life?
4.
"STRAINED LAMB CARROTS". He's referring to baby food here, but
I've
never heard the expression "lamb carrots". Is it just a way
of
saying that they're small carrots?
5. On
the last page, after mentioning his grandmother Rebecca,
Ginsberg
refers to someone named David. Do you know who he is or
was?
Howl:
1. In
the ninth paragraph: "PAINT HOTELS". What does this mean?
2. In
the 14th paragraph: "FUGAZZI'S". I believe this is a cafe
in
either New York or San Francisco. Do you know which?
--------------------------------------------------------
...visit...
ALLEN GINSBERG:
Shadow Changes into Bone
The Clearinghouse for all things
Ginsberg!
http://www.ginzy.com
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:41:32 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the knifes of mrs adele mailer
In-Reply-To: <199801212335.SAA27101@ionline.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Adele
Mailer in _The Last Party_ it seems that
stated
she was the lover of the Beat Generation
and
Jack Kerouac made love as writing a stream
of
consciousness quickly careless the partner.
Very
sad self-control...
Adele
Mailer was the 2th wife to Norman Mailer
she
wrote a memories book.
saluti,
rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:42:42 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: movies/Chapaqua
In-Reply-To: <199801212335.SAA27101@ionline.net>
Mime-Version:
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"M.
Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET> writes:
>Nothing
to do what WSB's favorite movies are/were, but
>_Chapaqua_
is now in release (movie w/ cinematography
>by
Robert Frank, and stars Ginsberg, Orlovsky, Burroughs,
>Monk,
etc.). It was a 1966 (65?) release and
won an Italian
>film
award. Check out your video stores. . .
>
>Mike
>
Mike,
1966--Chappaqua,
by Conrand Rooks. the movie won
the
_Leone d'argento_ (the runner-up, after _Leone d'oro_)
at the
Festival del Cinema in Venice,Italy.
aside
note Chappaqua in venetian vernacular means "snap up this!"
...not
related with the movie...only a synapse short circuit...
saluti,
rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Allen Ginsberg Questions
Comments:
To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Mongo
BearWolf wrote:
>
> 5.
On the last page, after mentioning his grandmother Rebecca,
>
Ginsberg refers to someone named David. Do you know who he is or
>
was?
>
i kind
of thought that was refering to me! <grinning grandiosely>
david
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:36:07 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
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Jeff
Taylor wrote:
>
> I
have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
>
the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
>
the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of
>
typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked
>
only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a
sickness",
> so
they may be more changes later in the text.)
>
>
[listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]
>
>
xxxvii/ix.3from bttm delaudid -->
dilaudid
>
xlii/xiv.3from bttm a vast hive
--> vast hives
>
xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg -->
Heisenberg
>
xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam -->
Ockham
>
xlvi/xviii.7fr btm Phlilosophicus
--> Philosophicus
just
out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:27:08 +0000
Reply-To: jhasbro@tezcat.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Hasbrouck
<jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
MIME-Version:
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Ksenija
Simic wrote:
>
>
Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
>
>
> I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
>
> the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
>
> the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of
>
> typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked
>
> only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a
sickness",
>
> so they may be more changes later in the text.)
>
>
>
> [listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]
>
>
>
> xxxvii/ix.3from bttm delaudid
--> dilaudid
>
> xlii/xiv.3from bttm a vast hive
--> vast hives
>
> xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg
--> Heisenberg
>
> xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam -->
Ockham
>
> xlvi/xviii.7fr btm
Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus
>
>
just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?
>
>
ksenija
My
suspicion is that Jeff is among that endangered species: The Close
Reader.
-Hasbrouck
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:24:39 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Susan L Dean
<deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-Type:
text/plain
An
observation:
It
seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
experiences
between women without assuming that those involved are either
homosexual
or bisexual. However, if a man has a
same sex sexual experience, he
"must"
either be gay or at least bisexual.
(again, this is a generalization)
I
wonder why?
Susan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:42:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
In-Reply-To:
<199801222124.QAA19328@pilot008.cl.msu.edu>
MIME-version:
1.0
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I think
it has to do with all that macho boys-don't-cry bullshit that men
and
boys have had shoved down their throats since the beginning of time.
We
women are supposed to be "weak," and if we make a little digression
here
and there, no big deal, right? But men are supposed to be "strong"
and not
give in to such "weaknesses."
Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Thu,
22 Jan 1998, Susan L Dean wrote:
> An
observation:
>
> It
seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
>
experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either
>
homosexual or bisexual. However, if a
man has a same sex sexual experience,
he
>
"must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a generalization)
>
> I
wonder why?
>
>
Susan
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:54:10 -0700
Reply-To: bluetorn@nanaimo.ark.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherryl
<bluetorn@NANAIMO.ARK.COM>
Organization:
Summer-Off
Subject: hello to all you toads.
MIME-Version:
1.0
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are you
tokin toads down there? I just finished
writing a short
story
about tokin toads in the outback-we were lookin up in on the
net
about smoking toads and read your poem about all dem toads.
Sorry
about your friend but I think he is in good company.
from a
toad fan on Gabriola Is. BC. Canada- Lynette and Sherryl
from
the West Coast ...Bushlands. Happy
tokin.We Canadians toke
the
best here on Gabriola Is. We will toke up in memory of W.S.
Burroughs
and he will know he is in good company.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:11:09 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: the knifes of mrs adele mailer
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
07:41 PM 1/22/98 +0100, Rinaldo wrote:
>Adele
Mailer in _The Last Party_ it seems that
>stated
she was the lover of the Beat Generation
>and
Jack Kerouac made love as writing a stream
>of
consciousness quickly careless the partner.
>Very
sad self-control...
>Adele
Mailer was the 2th wife to Norman Mailer
>she
wrote a memories book.
For
those interested in reading the Kerouac
content
of this book check out the NY Times website
and
there are a few chapters available to read:
_The
Last Party: Scenes from My Life with Norman Mailer_
By
ADELE MAILER
Do a
search with the above at the NY Times website
(www.nytimes.com). Or, if you are subscribed to the
times
website already go to:
http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+site+25904+0+
wAAA+jack%7Ekerouac%2Fadele%7Emailer
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:12:08 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 22-Jan-98 1:26:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU
writes:
<<
It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
experiences between women without assuming
that those involved are either
homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience,
>>
Not
beat. So generalistic as to have been pulled out of thin air. Divisive
gender-bashing
will soon ensue. And, it's rather boring.
So
shoot me.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:43:36 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: movies
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Bill
Gargan wrote:
> I
saw a film on witchcraft that WSB narrated
>
about 20 years ago. I think it was
called "Haxan" or something like
that. If
>
anyone has details: director, correct
title, etc. please post.
The
title is correct, also known by the alternate title "Witchcraft Through
The
Ages." It was a silent movie
produced in Scandinavia by someone named
Christiansen,
I believe in the late 1910's or early 1920's.
Banned in many
countries
for explicit (for then) depiction of demons, witches, etc. The
WSB
narration was added in the 1960's. Wish
I had more details, but maybe
someone
else can take it from here...
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:36:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sorted <junky@NETCONCEPTS.COM>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980122164034.113806D-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
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i can
boil this down to a very basic, if not somehwhat offensive, sentence.
if it
walks, talks, and is attractive to me: i'll hump it.
it's
that shaggy k9 in me.
am i
gay, bi, or straight? i suppose it depends on the color of my outfit
and how
low i dip my swagger.
yeh.
next topic.
>I
think it has to do with all that macho boys-don't-cry bullshit that men
>and
boys have had shoved down their throats since the beginning of time.
>We
women are supposed to be "weak," and if we make a little digression
>here
and there, no big deal, right? But men are supposed to be "strong"
>and
not give in to such "weaknesses."
>Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Cronopio, cronopio?
>
>
>On
Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Susan L Dean wrote:
>
>>
An observation:
>>
>>
It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
>>
experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either
>>
homosexual or bisexual. However, if a
man has a same sex sexual experience,
> he
>>
"must" either be gay or at least bisexual. (again, this is a
>>generalization)
>>
>>
I wonder why?
>>
>>
Susan
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:35:32 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
MIME-Version:
1.0
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>
>
Dennis wrote:
>
>
<<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the
>
> ordinary man.
> I
think you're overstating this, Eric. >>
>
i think
you are wrong, i have met many people
and many writers and
allen
stood out with a real shine on how he cared and nurtured. he and
another
man who noone knew (jamie grow) sticks in my mind for their
unique
capacity to express love on incredible levels.
unless you have
something
to base that these were just ordinary men i think it is hob
wash
. william was a caring person but the
stars in his crown for me
was his
mother fucking incredible intellect and wicked sense of humor.
allen
was a lot more than a man capable of unique levels of love but to
judge
him ordinary in that arena is to misjudge/.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:40:09 -0500
Reply-To: deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Susan Dean
<deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: private to maggie
MIME-Version:
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(I
apologize for cluttering everyone else's mailbox, but I did not have
an
address for a private reply.)
Maggie-
I agree
that the message in itself was not very beat, however it was
related
to a thread that has been going on for awhile.
(which makes it
at
least slightly more beat than lot of
recent postings) However, I
also
think that your response wasn't beat either, and probably should
have
been a private message.
As I
stated, my comment was a generalization.
I didn't "pull it out of
thin
air" though. It was a general
summary of some studies we
researched
in a human sexuality course I took.
I would
hope that men and women could discuss gender/sexuality issues
such as
this without turning the discussion into a war of the sexes.
(though
I fully agree that the discussion should not take place here)
If you
have any further comments, you can e-mail me privately at
deansusa@pilot.msu.edu
Susan
the
above message was not meant to be interpreted as rude. sometimes
its
hard to get your point across in an e-mail without sounding
impolite. for that same reason, even though the tone
of your post
appeared
pretty rude to me, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
assume
that was not the intent.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:51:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
In-Reply-To:
<199801222124.QAA19328@pilot008.cl.msu.edu>
Mime-Version:
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At
04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>An
observation:
>
>It
seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex
>experiences
between women without assuming that those involved are either
>homosexual
or bisexual. However, if a man has a
same sex sexual
experience,
he
>"must"
either be gay or at least bisexual.
(again, this is a generalization)
>
>I
wonder why?
>
>Susan
>
>
The
reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a woman-dominated
society. The Society cares what males do with their
semen. They want round
blocks
in round holes. Women care lots about
their own eggs, but Society
could
care less until it starts to turn into a child.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:05:17 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: narcotics and the CIA
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updates
at <http://speech.csun.edu/ben/news/cia/index.html> by ben
attias. according to these report that
anti-beat-institution the
Central
Intelligence Agency is up to dirty tricks and treats on the
homefront. Whether you believe it or not, i think my
friend Ben does a
marvelous
job of collating the information. the
new material most
notably
is some Real Audio materials (unfortunately i have no sound card
yet).
gypsy
davey
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:07:38 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew Shelton
<matthew_shelton@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Beat Spirit
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Recently
while looking through my local bookstore I found a book
titled
Beat Spirit by Mel Ash. This book has
activities designed to
teach
the Beat way of life. I was wondering
if anyone had read this
book
and if they had any opinions about it, positive or negative.
==
-----------------------------------------------------
Matthew
Shelton
matthew_shelton@mail.okbu.edu
-----------------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU
YAHOO!?
Get
your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:37:06 -0800
Reply-To: eatcarpaccio@geocities.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anthony
<eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>
Organization:
Cad Corporation
Subject: Beat Generation Project
MIME-Version:
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Beat-lers,
My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain
View California. I am 16
and I
go to Mountain View High School. I've
been reading a lot of the
stuf on
Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of
today
think of the beats. Myself and three
classmates of mine are doing
an
in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on
America. The classes that are involved are two
separate but linked
classes
(the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and
American
Lieterature Honors. Our English teacher
has been doing the
project
for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,
researches
it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class
in
their final 45 minute presentation.
The current state of our research is that
we have read a lot of the
beat
material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,
anthologies
like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with
Naked
Lunch and Junky next on the list. We
have listened to the CD
collection
"The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an
excursion
up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit
Kicks
and BigTable. We also plan to interview
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
within
the next few weeks.
Our current thesis basically propounds
the following ideas:
The beats were important fighters for
individual freedom in
America. They used their non-conformist beliefs,
attitudes, and
practices
to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
society.
American society began to stifles individual freedom and
expression
through government control and overly-conservative ideals
(e.g.
censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
conformist
ideals like materialism and nationalism.
The beats sparked a
much-needed
shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
individual
freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
later
the hippies in the 60's. And finally,
the beats invaluably
contributed
to American literature with their new, innovative,
spontaneous
style.
We would love any feedback from all of
you who know so much about
these
guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
might
have.
Thanks
for reading my long message!
--
Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:57:49 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Zyprexa blues #235
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i slide
into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
Cohen
there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and
the cat says he
ain't
got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! -
so i take water and turn
just to
see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
of
America in search of Itself. He passes
on water. We talk about the
old
country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
coffee
galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
like
the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
a
Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.
we get in a white car and
drive
around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
up and
its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
we go
from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
murderous
you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
all-night
truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
me
square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
if you
see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
they
can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
the car
down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
we
drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
the
spot where you can see seven water towers.
I asked him about the
Last
Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
wasn't
really you in the movie. He says he
auditioned but didn't make
it past
the first cut. Suddenly I'm
serious. Neal, if you had it all
to do
over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
smiles
and says Sure. No laughter - just a
Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
alone
on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
another
Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
for Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
souls
of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
country
before 1956. I drive home quietly,
Simon and Garfunkel "the
sound
of Silence" on the radio. my
parking place is waiting for me and
i have
coffee at my kitchen gallery. i head to
the bathroom and take my
nightly
dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit
down at the keyboard. i
type......
January
22nd, 1998
david
b. rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:07:12 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-Type:
text/plain
mike
said:
>At
04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>An
observation:
>>
>>It
seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same
sex
>>experiences
between women without assuming that those involved are
either
>>homosexual
or bisexual. However, if a man has a
same sex sexual
>experience,
he
>>"must"
either be gay or at least bisexual.
(again, this is a
generalization)
>>
>>I
wonder why?
>>
>>Susan
>>
>>
>The
reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a
woman-dominated
>society. The Society cares what males do with their
semen. They want
round
>blocks
in round holes. Women care lots about
their own eggs, but
Society
>could
care less until it starts to turn into a child.
>
>Mike
Rice
>
good
answer. also, men tend to get off on girl-girl sex, but the women
i've
talked to are either indifferent to -or disgusted by- men doing it
with
other men. -this could explain alot as well.
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:33:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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(apologies
to anthony, i didn't check my headers the first time)
good
evening,
i
believe jack keroauc said one time in an interview, "I'm not against
anything.
I don't have time for that kind of negativity." If U.S. customs
hadn't
made such a big deal about Howl, then what would of happened to the
beats?
maybe kerouac would have never been able to find a publisher for On
The
ROad, since ginsberg wouldn't be able to reccomend him to a big
publisher...
maybe
someone else has something more thoughtful to say about that above,
but what i mean is they were not using their
philosphy or anything to
steer
america away in any direction. maybe to just stop for a second and
question
the world america was in. for example ginsberd wrote howl to tell
people
what his generation was going through. all the shit the Best Minds
of His
Generation went through simply because their point of view was
different
than the norm. and not once (please correct me if i am wrong on
this)
did ginsberg ever write in howl, something to the effect of "come on
and
lets go take some smack!!!" you have a pretty good start on your
thesis,
and take this into consideration if you would like. your final
sentence
sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their
creation
of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to
concentrate
on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their
beliefs
and such.
At 08:37
PM 1/22/98 -0800, you wrote:
> Our current thesis basically propounds
the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for
individual freedom in
>America. They used their non-conformist beliefs,
attitudes, and
>practices
to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
>society.
American society began to stifles individual freedom and
>expression
through government control and overly-conservative ideals
>(e.g.
censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
>conformist
ideals like materialism and nationalism.
The beats sparked a
>much-needed
shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
>individual
freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
>later
the hippies in the 60's. And finally,
the beats invaluably
>contributed
to American literature with their new, innovative,
>spontaneous
style.
>
> We would love any feedback from all of
you who know so much about
>these
guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
>might
have.
>
>Thanks
for reading my long message!
>
>--
>
>Anthony
>
>
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:35:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
In a
message dated 98-01-23 00:18:58 EST, you write:
<<
mike said:
>At 04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>An observation:
>>
>>It seems to me that society in
general is more willing to accept same
sex
>>experiences between women without
assuming that those involved are
either
>>homosexual or bisexual. However, if a man has a same sex sexual
>experience, he
>>"must" either be gay or at
least bisexual. (again, this is a
generalization)
>>
>>I wonder why?
>>
>>Susan
>>
>>
>The reason is simple, its a
male-dominated society, not a
woman-dominated
>society.
The Society cares what males do with their semen. They want
round
>blocks in round holes. Women care lots about their own eggs, but
Society
>could care less until it starts to turn
into a child.
>
>Mike Rice
>
good answer. also, men tend to get off on
girl-girl sex, but the women
i've talked to are either indifferent to -or
disgusted by- men doing it
with other men. -this could explain alot as
well.
>>
The
"male dominated society" thing is an easy, "knee jerk"
response and
doesn't
hold up....
George
Clinton sez, "Free your mind, and your ass will follow."
SciAms
say, "Free your ass, and your mind will follow."
A
"friend" sez, "Make friends with your sphincter."
Go
figure.
beaner
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:48:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
In-Reply-To: <34C8234D.218E@midusa.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
beautiful
damn good "spontainous bop prosody".
At
10:57 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>i
slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
>Cohen
there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
>comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and
the cat says he
>ain't
got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! -
so i take water and turn
>just
to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
>of
America in search of Itself. He passes
on water. We talk about the
>old
country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
>coffee
galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
>like
the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
>a
Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.
we get in a white car and
>drive
around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
>up
and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
>we
go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
>murderous
you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
>all-night
truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
>me
square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
>if
you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
>they
can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
>the
car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
>face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
>we
drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
>the
spot where you can see seven water towers.
I asked him about the
>Last
Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
>says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
>wasn't
really you in the movie. He says he
auditioned but didn't make
>it
past the first cut. Suddenly I'm serious. Neal, if you had it all
>to
do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
>smiles
and says Sure. No laughter - just a
Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
>alone
on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
>another
Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
>for
Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
>souls
of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
>country
before 1956. I drive home quietly, Simon
and Garfunkel "the
>sound
of Silence" on the radio. my
parking place is waiting for me and
>i
have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i
head to the bathroom and take my
>nightly
dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit
down at the keyboard. i
>type......
>
>January
22nd, 1998
>david
b. rhaesa
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:48:03 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
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randy
royal wrote:
> your final
>
sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their
>
creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to
>
concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their
>
beliefs and such.
>
i think
that would be a horrible thesis. it
would merely be a
justification
that the project is topical within the parameters of the
course. at most it should be a paragraph.
my
hubristic opinion,
gypsy
davey
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:28:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: randy royal
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: <34C82F13.7F94@midusa.net>
Mime-Version:
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well
let's have a look at this: the big three (wsb, kerouac and ginsberg)
were
friends first off because they shared views right? but all three had a
knack
for writing (i read somewhere wsb was for a very brief period of time
back in
jk's columbia days and around when Carr murdered that guy) so they
experimented
around a little bit and effectively made their own style of
literature.
i heard ginsberg first wrote in classical poetry form, but
became
fustrated withit and was influenced by his kerouac and burroughs to
take up
free verse.
david-
i don't really know. it seems like which came first? the chicken or
the
egg? all right now, anthony- if i were you even it out with both
history
and the spontainous literature.
then
again, is your audience more lit or history minded? just accomadate to
whichever
they are in either case.
have a
good evening all,
randy
At
11:48 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:
>randy
royal wrote:
>> your final
>>
sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their
>>
creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to
>>
concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their
>>
beliefs and such.
>>
>i
think that would be a horrible thesis.
it would merely be a
>justification
that the project is topical within the parameters of the
>course. at most it should be a paragraph.
>
>my
hubristic opinion,
>gypsy
davey
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:34:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
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AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 98-01-23 01:27:32 EST, you write:
>
the big three (wsb, kerouac and ginsberg)
> were friends first off because they shared
views right? but all three had a
> knack for writing (i read somewhere wsb was
for a very brief period of time
> back in jk's columbia days and around when
Carr murdered that guy) so they
> experimented around a little bit and
effectively made their own style of
> literature.
well,
.. i've always had a problem on this front.
to me, Ginsberg, Kerouac,
and
Burroughs were three extremely different people who happened to be
extremely
close with eachother, thus conveniencing the popular press with a
reason
to bind them together as the holy trinity of a movement. but, ... a
such a
large part of this is overly idealized! this irks me so! Anthony-- i
too am
16 and just wrote a "critical analysis" of On the Road. this was a
big
dilemma
for me, because i've been reading Kerouac since 8th grade and felt
that it
was my obligation (to god knows what) to write about On the Road for
my
semester paper (we had to choose from a list of books-- fiction and non-
fiction--
pertaining to the 2nd half the century), yet at the same time, i
felt i
could have gotten alot more out of the assignment if i'd done something
i didnt
know as much about. anyhow, i mean,
when you assess beat literature,
you
will see that Ginsberg's, Kerouac's and Burrough's intentions as writers,
tho
stemming from the same discontent, were very different. their feelings
for
humanity were drastically different.
Kerouac showed little care for the
social
well-being of the nation, or any nation for that matter. Ginsberg was
one of
the most loving souls i have ever had the honor of coming into contact
with. A
tremendous presence in this city, spiritually, politically, and
humanistically. Burroughs, well, god, what was he all about
when it really
came
down to it? i never felt much affinity for him, i have to admit. (will i
be
kicked off the list?....)
buone
cose a tutti,
---Ginny Browne.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:32:09 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
Comments:
To: eatcarpaccio@geocities.com
MIME-Version:
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Thanks
for letting us know about this good news from Mountain View High!
This is
particularly exciting when you consider that Mountain View was a
mormom
stronghold in the early sixties (still is?)
when the first private
psychiatric
hospital (El Camino Hospital) facilitiy was opened in the bay
area to
serve primarily Lockheed executives who received unheard of 100%
psychiatric
coverage.
I am
curious about
1. Is
the project popular with the students? ( I bet)
2.
Names of the teachers?
3. What
is the CAD Corporation and how is it related to you?
Have
fun in your project
leon
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Anthony <eatcarpaccio@geocities.com>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Thursday, January 22, 1998 8:49 PM
Subject:
Beat Generation Project
>Beat-lers,
>
> My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain
View California. I am 16
>and
I go to Mountain View High School. I've
been reading a lot of the
>stuf
on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of
>today
think of the beats. Myself and three
classmates of mine are doing
>an
in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on
>America. The classes that are involved are two
separate but linked
>classes
(the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and
>American
Lieterature Honors. Our English teacher
has been doing the
>project
for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,
>researches
it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class
>in
their final 45 minute presentation.
> The current state of our research is that
we have read a lot of the
>beat
material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,
>anthologies
like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with
>Naked
Lunch and Junky next on the list. We
have listened to the CD
>collection
"The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an
>excursion
up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit
>Kicks
and BigTable. We also plan to interview
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
>within
the next few weeks.
> Our current thesis basically propounds
the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for
individual freedom in
>America. They used their non-conformist beliefs,
attitudes, and
>practices
to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
>society.
American society began to stifles individual freedom and
>expression
through government control and overly-conservative ideals
>(e.g.
censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
>conformist
ideals like materialism and nationalism.
The beats sparked a
>much-needed
shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
>individual
freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and
>later
the hippies in the 60's. And finally,
the beats invaluably
>contributed
to American literature with their new, innovative,
>spontaneous
style.
>
> We would love any feedback from all of
you who know so much about
>these
guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
>might
have.
>
>Thanks
for reading my long message!
>
>--
>
>Anthony
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:43:21 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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Let me
guess David - A new Beat-L column? An 007 movie? No, not the end,
please.
leon?
-----Original
Message-----
From:
David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:33 PM
Subject:
Zyprexa blues #235
>i
slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
>Cohen
there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
>comedy. i head to the bar and say i want coffee and
the cat says he
>ain't
got none. he's closing early - AGAIN! -
so i take water and turn
>just
to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
>of
America in search of Itself. He passes
on water. We talk about the
>old
country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
>coffee
galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
>like
the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
>a
Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.
we get in a white car and
>drive
around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
>up
and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
>we
go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
>murderous
you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
>all-night
truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
>me
square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
>if
you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
>they
can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
>the
car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
>face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
>we
drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
>the
spot where you can see seven water towers.
I asked him about the
>Last
Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
>says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
>wasn't
really you in the movie. He says he
auditioned but didn't make
>it
past the first cut. Suddenly I'm
serious. Neal, if you had it all
>to
do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
>smiles
and says Sure. No laughter - just a
Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
>alone
on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
>another
Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
>for
Denver. Nothing big - just a tear. I'll miss this spot with the
>souls
of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
>country
before 1956. I drive home quietly,
Simon and Garfunkel "the
>sound
of Silence" on the radio. my
parking place is waiting for me and
>i
have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i
head to the bathroom and take my
>nightly
dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i sit
down at the keyboard. i
>type......
>
>January
22nd, 1998
>david
b. rhaesa
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:07:15 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
In-Reply-To: <34C81027.53F2@eunet.yu>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu,
22 Jan 1998, Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in
>
> the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and
>
> the 1992 Evergreen edition.
>
>
>
> xxxvii/ix.3from bttm delaudid
--> dilaudid
>
> xlii/xiv.3from bttm a vast hive
--> vast hives
>
> xlv/xvii.1 Heiderberg
--> Heisenberg
> >
xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam -->
Ockham
>
> xlvi/xviii.7fr btm
Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus
>
>
just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?
I was
reading an article by R.G. Peterson, "A Picture Is a Fact:
Wittgenstein
and Naked Lunch" in which Peterson noted the name
"Heiderberg"
and speculated that it was a combination of Heidegger and
Heisenberg.
But when I went to look up the passage in my copy of NL,
it said
"Heisenberg". So I dug out my older edition of NL, and sure
enough,
there it was "Heiderberg". So where there's one change,
there's
likely to be more.
The
really surprising change was when the phrase "....my own special
symptom,
The Cold Burn, like a vast hive covering the body...." was
altered
to "like vast hives". Surely it was correct the first way.
Peterson
also cited the following phrase: "'Ludwig Wittenstein [sic]
Tractatus
Logico-Phlilosophicus [sic]'". Now in the '66 edition, the
spelling
of LW's name was correct, although the second error remained.
So
since Peterson was using the '62 edition, it seems likely that
changes
and corrections were made also between the '62 and '66
editions,
as well as the ones I found between '66 and '92.
I also
recently read "The Central Verbal System: The Prose of William
Burroughs"
by Michael Skau (who is on this list, I believe), in which
he
states, in the course of giving an account of WSB's various methods
for
combating verbal control, that "Burroughs also refuses to correct
typographical
errors in his prose....These errata comprise further
assaults
on verbal control." But this claim may have to be revised,
depending
on who is responsible for the changes in NL.
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:48:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>
MIME-version:
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On Thu,
22 Jan 1998, Anthony wrote:
> Our current thesis basically propounds
the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for
individual freedom in
>
America. They used their non-conformist
beliefs, attitudes, and
>
practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
>
society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and
>
expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals
>
(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
>
conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism. The beats sparked a
>
much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
>
individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks"
and
>
later the hippies in the 60's.
If you
haven't already looked at it, a good article is
Jonathan
Paul Eburne, "Trafficking in the Void: Burroughs, Kerouac,
and the
Consumption of Otherness". Modern Fiction Studies 43:1 (Spring
1997)
53-92.
Eburne
analyzes both WSB's Naked Lunch and JK's Subterraneans against
the
background of the rhetoric of J. Edgar Hoover and the general
politicization
of personal identity during the '50s. All in all, one
of the
best academic articles on the Beats that I've seen.
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:26:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
Comments:
To: Anthony <eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>
In-Reply-To: <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>
Mime-Version:
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Anthony-
I did a
similiar project for a similar class when I was a junior, also. In
my
paper, I also talked about religion and the Beats and a good book for
that is
"Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation". I forget who
wrote
it but it was a good resource. Also, check out the Beat Reader. It
has a
ton of info on lots of different Beat artists. Good luck with your
project.
On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Anthony wrote:
>
Beat-lers,
>
> My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain
View California. I am 16
>
and I go to Mountain View High School.
I've been reading a lot of the
>
stuf on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of
>
today think of the beats. Myself and
three classmates of mine are doing
> an
in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on
>
America. The classes that are involved
are two separate but linked
>
classes (the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and
>
American Lieterature Honors. Our
English teacher has been doing the
>
project for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,
>
researches it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class
> in
their final 45 minute presentation.
> The current state of our research is
that we have read a lot of the
>
beat material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,
>
anthologies like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with
>
Naked Lunch and Junky next on the list.
We have listened to the CD
>
collection "The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken
an
>
excursion up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit
>
Kicks and BigTable. We also plan to
interview Lawrence Ferlinghetti
>
within the next few weeks.
> Our current thesis basically propounds
the following ideas:
>
> The beats were important fighters for
individual freedom in
>
America. They used their non-conformist
beliefs, attitudes, and
>
practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive
>
society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and
>
expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals
>
(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of
>
conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism. The beats sparked a
>
much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more
>
individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks"
and
>
later the hippies in the 60's. And
finally, the beats invaluably
>
contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,
>
spontaneous style.
>
> We would love any feedback from all of
you who know so much about
>
these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you
>
might have.
>
>
Thanks for reading my long message!
>
> --
>
>
Anthony
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:27:57 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:33:50 -0500
from
<randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
OTR was
already in the works by the time Howl was censored. Kerouac's
book
probably still would have done very well when it was published
becasue
of Millstien's review in the New York Times.
Ginsberg's
activism
in anti-war and gay rights causes also helped to promote a Beat
movement. Nevertheless, the obscenity trial certainly
got the beats a
lot of
media attention and helped attract new readers.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:47:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
MIME-Version:
1.0
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7bit
Leon
Tabory wrote:
>
>
Let me guess David - A new Beat-L column?
not a
bad idea. remind me to do something
once a week or so.
An 007
movie?
Bond,
gypsy davey Bond!
No, not
the end,
>
please.
Zyprexa
is my new medicine. I think it's pretty
good stuff.
HOW
HAVE YOU BEEN?
gypsy
davey
>
>
leon?
>
>
-----Original Message-----
>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:33 PM
>
Subject: Zyprexa blues #235
>
>
>i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
>
>Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
>
>comedy. i head to the bar and say i
want coffee and the cat says he
>
>ain't got none. he's closing early
- AGAIN! - so i take water and turn
>
>just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
>
>of America in search of Itself. He
passes on water. We talk about the
>
>old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
>
>coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
>
>like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
>
>a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore. we get in a white car and
>
>drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
>
>up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
>
>we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
>
>murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
>
>all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
>
>me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
>
>if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
>
>they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
>
>the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
>
>face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
>
>we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
>
>the spot where you can see seven water towers. I asked him about the
>
>Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
>
>says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
>
>wasn't really you in the movie. He
says he auditioned but didn't make
>
>it past the first cut. Suddenly I'm
serious. Neal, if you had it all
>
>to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
>
>smiles and says Sure. No laughter -
just a Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
>
>alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
>
>another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
>
>for Denver. Nothing big - just a
tear. I'll miss this spot with the
>
>souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
>
>country before 1956. I drive home
quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the
>
>sound of Silence" on the radio.
my parking place is waiting for me and
>
>i have coffee at my kitchen gallery.
i head to the bathroom and take my
>
>nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol.
i sit down at the keyboard. i
>
>type......
>
>
>
>January 22nd, 1998
>
>david b. rhaesa
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:53:32 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Jeff
Taylor wrote:
>
> I
was reading an article by R.G. Peterson, "A Picture Is a Fact:
>
Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch" in which Peterson noted the name
>
"Heiderberg" and speculated that it was a combination of Heidegger
and
>
Heisenberg. But when I went to look up the passage in my copy of NL,
> it
said "Heisenberg". So I dug out my older edition of NL, and sure
>
enough, there it was "Heiderberg". So where there's one change,
>
there's likely to be more.
also
Heidelberg probably is spliced into the Heiderberg somehow. I was
thinking
that a synthesis of Heisenberg and Heidegger would be
interesting. I would suggest splicing Question Concerning
Technology
and
other essays with Heisenberg's collection in the World Perspectives
series.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:21:34 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
Content-Type:
text/plain
nice,
very nice.
-greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc. *
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *
*
Dozens of poems, pictures, info *
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:20:35 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: DELETE MY PREV. MESSAGE (UNLESS YOU'RE
ANTHONY)
Content-Type:
text/plain
Sorry
listers.... that previous message should have gone to anthony and
only
anthony.
-Greg
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:09:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: bad liver kerouac connection?
Comments:
To: Discussion of Tom Waits <RAINDOGS@LISTSERV.HEA.IE>
Mime-Version:
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Content-Type:
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>On
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatsInRock.html it says that
>'Waits
also sings of Kerouac in a song called "Bad Liver and a Broken
>Heart
(in Lowell)."'
>
>Is
this true? I don't see any Kerouac reference in there, but I haven't
>actually
read anything by Kerouac yet. I've tried reading On the Road
>three
or four times. I never get any further than, say, fifty pages...
>
>This
bothers me, somehow.
i find that reading him aloud, or at
least mouthing the words, is
very
helpful. i'm reading _desolation
angels_ these days when i have time.
this
one is about the time he spent as a fire lookout on a mountain called
desolation
peak. it has a killing time kind of
feel to it; but the
language
is still very fluid and full of energy.
i've never heard about 'bad
liver and a broken heart' being
about
jack. the "in lowell"
subtitle makes sense since that's were he was
born. i don't know who "kath" is
supposed to refer to. later in his
life,
kerouac
returned to lowell and married a friend from childhood, stella
sampas.
i've always identified
with this song. the title
relates
to two of my perpetual problems. i love
that "sharp as a razor and
soft as
a prayer" line.
KEN
Bad Liver
and a Broken Heart (in Lowell)
Well I
got a bad liver and a broken heart,
Yeah, I
drunk me a river since you tore me apart
And I
don't have a drinking problem, 'cept when I can't get a drink
And I
wish you'd a-known her, we were quite a pair,
She was
sharp as a razor and soft as a prayer
So
welcome to the continuing saga,
She was
my better half, and I was just a dog
And so
here am I slumped, I've been chipped and I've been chumped on my stool
So buy
this fool some spirits and libations, it's these railroad station bars
And all
these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters
And
this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,
He's a
lawyer, he ain't the one for ya
No, the
moon ain't romantic, it's intimidating as hell,
And
some guy's trying to sell me a watch
And so
I'll meet you at the bottom of a bottle of bargain Scotch
I got
me a bottle and a dream, it's so maudlin it seems,
You can
name your poison, go on ahead and make some noise
I ain't
sentimental, this ain't a purchase, it's a rental, and it's purgatory,
And
hey, what's your story, well I don't even care
'Cause
I got my own double-cross to bear
And
I'll see your Red Label, and I'll raise you one more,
And you
can pour me a cab, I just can't drink no more,
'Cause
it don't douse the flames that are started by dames,
It
ain't like asbestos
It
don't do nothing but rest us assured,
And
substantiate the rumors that you've heard.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:34:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01b0ee88c8e2ce@[18.170.1.147]>
from "Ken Ostrander" at
Jan 23, 98 01:09:26 pm
Content-Type:
text/plain
>
about jack. the "in lowell"
subtitle makes sense since that's were he was
>
born. i don't know who "kath"
is supposed to refer to. later in his
life,
>
kerouac returned to lowell and married a friend from childhood, stella
>
sampas.
>
And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters
>
And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,
Maybe
he just used the name Kath because not much rhymes with Stella???
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:06:36 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: winter queue (once popeye said W=W S=S)
In-Reply-To: <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>
Mime-Version:
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David
Bruce Rhaesa says:
>also
Heidelberg probably is spliced into the Heiderberg somehow. I was
>thinking
that a synthesis of Heisenberg and Heidegger would be
>interesting. I would suggest splicing Question Concerning
Technology
>and
other essays with Heisenberg's collection in the World Perspectives
>series.
>
>dbr
>
amico mio
IWasStonedManyYearsAgo&TodayICannotRecognizedAnyDifference
AmongWITTGENSTEINandWELTANSHAAUNGisTheCatYouMetCalledSchopenhauer
OrSchrodingerOrTheMutantEngineLikeSpencerTracyOrTheAnarchistSpencer
ISawMyShadowABitLargeTodayWaitingForTheBusAndAllBusesGoToVeniceAndTheSun
EnlargeMyShadowTheSunEnlargedMyShadowIWasIntriguedByTheShadowTheNiteFallIn
several
time i'm thinking WHO was the
real
person who wrote "On The Road", t after the delegue
hey
told me Jack Kerouac. several time
hippies&doomin69
i was thinking
if Allen Ginsberg is a
fonda&hoppershoted
character
in "The Town and the City" 1
950
(wrote 1946/49) the same years on the road. jack kerouac was
published
in 1950 howl was published in 1956.
The Self built with myriad
thoughts
from football to I Am
That I Am
---allen ginsberg
(Auto Poetry)
who for
Christ's sake
wrote
those beat lit
and why
censored?
those flags
in the wind
rent car pl
ace queue b
uses the su
n fall down
western blu
e cable opt
ical though
ts sunset
the
great conspirancy
get out
of this plane
t
OhIKickThisCrashBarrierIveLostTheBus...!!!
saluti
a tutti voi da
rinaldo
quello che ha perso l'ultimo bus a adesso non sa piu'
cosa
fare se non prendere a calci il guardrail, woohh!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:22:58 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher
<brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
In-Reply-To: <v02140b01b0ee88c8e2ce@[18.170.1.147]>
from "Ken Ostrander" at
Jan 23, 98 01:09:26 pm
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
>
>On http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatsInRock.html it says that
>
>'Waits also sings of Kerouac in a song called "Bad Liver and a Broken
>
>Heart (in Lowell)."'
>
>
>
>Is this true? I don't see any Kerouac reference in there, but I haven't
>
>actually read anything by Kerouac yet. I've tried reading On the Road
>
>three or four times. I never get any further than, say, fifty pages...
Well, I
don't know if this is true or not, but I guess I always
imagined
the guy speaking in the song is supposed to be Kerouac,
or some
reflection of him.
I just
think this because of the title. Lowell
signifies Jack -- it
can't
be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown. Also,
I bet
Jack did not have a great liver.
>
Bad Liver and a Broken Heart (in Lowell)
>
>
Well I got a bad liver and a broken heart,
>
Yeah, I drunk me a river since you tore me apart
>
And I don't have a drinking problem, 'cept when I can't get a drink
>
And I wish you'd a-known her, we were quite a pair,
>
She was sharp as a razor and soft as a prayer
> So
welcome to the continuing saga,
>
She was my better half, and I was just a dog
>
And so here am I slumped, I've been chipped and I've been chumped on my stool
> So
buy this fool some spirits and libations, it's these railroad station bars
>
And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters
>
And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,
>
He's a lawyer, he ain't the one for ya
>
No, the moon ain't romantic, it's intimidating as hell,
>
And some guy's trying to sell me a watch
>
And so I'll meet you at the bottom of a bottle of bargain Scotch
> I
got me a bottle and a dream, it's so maudlin it seems,
>
You can name your poison, go on ahead and make some noise
> I
ain't sentimental, this ain't a purchase, it's a rental, and it's purgatory,
>
And hey, what's your story, well I don't even care
>
'Cause I got my own double-cross to bear
>
>
And I'll see your Red Label, and I'll raise you one more,
>
And you can pour me a cab, I just can't drink no more,
>
'Cause it don't douse the flames that are started by dames,
> It
ain't like asbestos
> It
don't do nothing but rest us assured,
>
And substantiate the rumors that you've heard.
---------------------------------------------------------
| Levi
Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the
Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at
http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
|
*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*
|
| |
|
"Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |
| -- Joni
Mitchell |
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:21:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Anthony--
The book Nancy is referring to is edited by
Carole Tonkinson, and
was
published by Riverhead Books. It sounds like you're doing an
incredible
project! I just finished a semester's worth of research on
Allen
Ginsberg for my freshman Honors Comp. class, and I plan to flesh
it out
a little more and seek publication.
You'll be interviewing Ferlinghetti? Do
e-mail me privately and let
me know
how that goes, especially how you got in contact with him in
the
first place, because I've thought about publishing my Ginsberg
anthology
as an anthology about all the Beat poets.
Good luck,
Maggie
---Nancy
B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU> wrote:
>
>
Anthony-
> I
did a similiar project for a similar class when I was a junior,
also.
In
> my
paper, I also talked about religion and the Beats and a good book
for
>
that is "Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation". I forget
who
>
wrote it but it was a good resource. Also, check out the Beat
Reader.
It
>
has a ton of info on lots of different Beat artists. Good luck with
your
>
project.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU
YAHOO!?
Get
your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:45:53 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: pome(not mine/prolly nonbeat oh well
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while
in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
cafe, i
bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
soule
i was told she was in dire straits and needed
the money. i opened it up
to this
one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
the
musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
scars
the
scars upon my heart are growing sore
again. i
feel their unhealed ridges tear.
they
bleed in riptide as the bled before
the
silent shock that taught me to ignore
the
suffering became my first affair;
the
scars upon my heart are growing sore.
the
seam in my protective armor tore
away,
and that was all the scars could bear
they
bleed in riptide as they bled before.
my
heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
it will
not heal like sores exposed to air.
the
scars upon my heart are growing sore.
the
open wounds these cicatrices wore
in pain
cannot be hidden anywhere;
they
bleed in riptide as they bled before.
the
jail of my unloving has a door
which
hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
the
scars upon my heart are growing sore;
the
bleed in riptide as they bled before.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:45:16 EST
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From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
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AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
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In a
message dated 98-01-23 16:22:11 EST, you write:
>
You'll be interviewing Ferlinghetti? Do e-mail me privately and let
> me know how that goes,
yea,
Anthony, perhaps you could post something to the whole list about your
Ferlinghetti
interview, as i'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.
( am i
wrong?)
--Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:21:39 -0800
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From: Anthony
<eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>
Organization:
Cad Corporation
Subject: Re: Beat Generation Project
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Hi
Everyone,
Thanks
to all of you who responded. I've read
and considered all of
your
input.
Since all of you seem interested, I think
that I should explain a
little
more about the actual project. This is
not your typical
project. Our teacher has done of the project for over
20 years and has
students
do all sorts of amazing stuff. The
project is called DIVE.
That's
not an acronym. It means "Dive
into the Deep" and everyone
refers
to it as Dive or, Dive projects, (we're having a "dive meeting",
etc.) The idea is to Dive into a topic in great
detail and then teach
others
what you have learned. The project is
NOT a paper. At the end
of the
half-year of research (ours will be in early May) we perform our
55
minute presentation that we will by then have scripted and prepared
for
quite extensively. We plan to make our
project multimedia with
videos
of various stuff (hopefully of our Ferlinghetti interview if he
allows
us to tape), recordings of the beats reading, jazz and bop music,
we hope
to make an extensive set in one of the larger classrooms or
maybe a
conference room or auditorium, we may dress like some of the
guys
and we will certainly read poetry and book excerpts. We will also
possibly
re-enact a shortened version of Six Gallery and we will
certainly
have a lot of slides of beat pictures.
And as usual we are
open to
suggestions. During the presentation, I
would estimate that the
audience
will be about 75-100 people from our classes, past classes,
future
classes, interested teachers and anyone else who wants to attend.
To answer Leon's questions...
1. Is
the project popular with the students? ( I bet)
Depends
if you have a good group and topic. I'd
say about half do. We
sure
do!
2.
Names of the teachers?
Probably
not a good idea without their permission.
3. What
is the CAD Corporation and how is it related to you?
Hehe. This is not a real corporation. I made it up. It's a joke my
brother
and I have. Sorry to disappoint you!
We're
currently working on an outline of our research and we will soon
be
writing our script both of which I will post on Beat-L. I will also
transcribe
our interview with Ferlinghetti and post that.
To answer another question, our audience
will have experienced a
pretty
detailed history of the United States at that point well past the
beats. They will also be familiar with Whitman and
other avant-guard
stuff,
so we are lucky in that respect.
--Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:38:56 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>
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This is
really off the subject of Beats now, but I had to tell you that a movie
is
in the
works based on Breakfast of Champions -- starring Bruce Willis! Ugh.
Do you
have any idea of when this is coming out?
Janelle
Free
web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!
http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:46:52 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Crossroads
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Robert
Johnson's Crossroads
(A
tribute to a Blues Man from the crossroads.)
Columbia
22
Went
down to the Crossroads
Camden
25
Tried
to flag a ride.
Sumter
22
Got
hellhounds on my trail.
Orangeburg
25
Have my
sweet rider by my side.
Crossroads
Jesus
Saves
Turn to
Jesus or Burn in Hell
Wilson.
Will
son.
Will's
son.
Will's
son cross.
Will's
son cross road.
Will's
son cross roads.
Will's
son cross roads Jesus.
Will's
son cross roads Jesus saves.
Will's
son cross roads Jesus saves Columbia.
(No he
didn't Sherman burnt it! That is why
you can't trace title
beyond
1865.)
Will's
son cross roads Jesus saves Camden.
(Well
he might have, ask Cornwallis!)
Will's
son cross roads Jesus saves Sumter.
(Depends,
one wing in the Persian Gulf tonight.)
Will's
son cross roads Jesus saves Orangeburg.
(Crack
alleys, murder rate, unemployment, kids with guns, not likely.)
Will's
son cross roads Jesus saves or Burn in Hell.
Me, I
just want to get some gas and take a piss.
But, it
is spooky here, at a crossroads that is exactly 22, 25, 22, 25.
Did
Robert Johnson meet ole scratch here, or does Jesus Save?
Tried
to flag a ride.
That's
what the sign says.
No body
seemed to know me.
But
maybe that was back in Wilson.
House
down by the riverside.
Will
cross road son.
Break
in on a dollar most any place she goes.
Will
road cross son.
They
all just passed me by.
Son
will cross road.
Got
tamales and they are red hot, yeah got em for sale.
Son
cross Will Road.
Dead
shirmps blues.
Son
road cross Will.
Believe
it's much too light.
Cross
road son will.
She got
a mortgage on my body.
Crossroads.
And a
lien on my soul.
--
I was
just thinking about the perfect crossroads I drove through on
Tuesday
night on the way home. And, I was
listening to Jimi Hendrix (My
arrows
are made of desire from far away as Jupiter's sulpher mines, way
down by
the methane sea. I have a hummingbird
that will hum so loud,
that
you will think you are losing your mind.) when this just evolved.
I hope
you will find it amusing. After all, I
am not sure if it
pertains
to Jack's percentage of homosexual acts vs heterosexual acts,
but
Jung probably already discussed that.
Or at least, I think he meant
to.
BTW,
most of the lines are either the best I can remember from Robert
Johnson,
or they are in a sense cut ups as I went by a place called
Wilson
and was trying to imagine a cut up with it just before I went
down to
the crossroads.
Have a
good weekend.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:42:32 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Crossroads
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R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
BTW, most of the lines are either the best I can remember from Robert
>
Johnson,
you did
get a lot of that faustian Robert Johnson's lyrics right.
i
REALLY REALLY liked this Bentz.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:06:10 -0800
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
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>
> I
just think this because of the title.
Lowell signifies Jack -- it
>
can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown. Also,
> I
bet Jack did not have a great liver.
i agree with you - he must have known, or he
wouldn't be singing a song
called
'jack and neil'. right?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:06:15 EST
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From: L1wannabe <L1wannabe@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality
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thought
you'd enjoy the poem
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:21:14 EST
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From: L1wannabe <L1wannabe@AOL.COM>
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Subject: Re: Kerouac as poet
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Please...dear
Sir re-read your Kerouac. This man
developed an intense plot
line. I hate to interrupt the list however I could
not sit by idly whithout
responding.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:08:52 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: winter queue (once popeye said W=W
S=S)
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rinnaldo:
a fest for the eyes and a fest for the words. fest as in festival.
mc
> amico mio
>
IWasStonedManyYearsAgo&TodayICannotRecognizedAnyDifference
>
AmongWITTGENSTEINandWELTANSHAAUNGisTheCatYouMetCalledSchopenhauer
>
OrSchrodingerOrTheMutantEngineLikeSpencerTracyOrTheAnarchistSpencer
>
ISawMyShadowABitLargeTodayWaitingForTheBusAndAllBusesGoToVeniceAndTheSun
>
EnlargeMyShadowTheSunEnlargedMyShadowIWasIntriguedByTheShadowTheNiteFallIn
>
>
several time i'm thinking WHO was the
>
real person who wrote "On The Road", t after the delegue
>
hey told me Jack Kerouac. several time
hippies&doomin69
> i
was thinking if Allen Ginsberg is a
fonda&hoppershoted
>
character in "The Town and the City" 1
>
950 (wrote 1946/49) the same years on the road. jack kerouac was
>
published in 1950 howl was published in 1956.
>
> The Self built with myriad
thoughts
> from football to I Am
That I Am
> ---allen ginsberg
>
(Auto Poetry)
>
who for Christ's sake
>
wrote those beat lit
>
and why censored?
those flags
>
in the wind
>
rent car pl
>
ace queue b
>
uses the su
>
n fall down
>
western blu
>
e cable opt
>
ical though
>
ts sunset
>
the great conspirancy
>
get out of this plane
> t
>
>
OhIKickThisCrashBarrierIveLostTheBus...!!!
>
>
saluti a tutti voi da
>
rinaldo quello che ha perso l'ultimo bus a adesso non sa piu'
>
cosa fare se non prendere a calci il guardrail, woohh!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:14:34 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
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david:
this is just wonderful stream of consciousness and so detailed and
expressive.
wonderful wonderful.
mc
David
Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> i
slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard
>
Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest
>
comedy. i head to the bar and say i
want coffee and the cat says he
>
ain't got none. he's closing early -
AGAIN! - so i take water and turn
>
just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy
> of
America in search of Itself. He passes
on water. We talk about the
>
old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed
>
coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places
>
like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke
> a
Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.
we get in a white car and
>
drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled
> up
and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn. Where can
> we
go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not
>
murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an
>
all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks
> me
square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and
> if
you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that
>
they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide
>
the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking
>
face. what THIS TIME i say. He LAUGHS a Neal laugh. I laugh back and
> we
drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top. A quiet night on
>
the spot where you can see seven water towers.
I asked him about the
>
Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i
>
says. And Neal just LAUGHS. Some folks are pretty pissed off that it
>
wasn't really you in the movie. He says
he auditioned but didn't make
> it
past the first cut. Suddenly I'm
serious. Neal, if you had it all
> to
do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life. He
>
smiles and says Sure. No laughter -
just a Neal Cassady smile. Now i'm
>
alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking
>
another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon
>
for Denver. Nothing big - just a
tear. I'll miss this spot with the
>
souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old
>
country before 1956. I drive home
quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the
>
sound of Silence" on the radio. my
parking place is waiting for me and
> i
have coffee at my kitchen gallery. i
head to the bathroom and take my
>
nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol. i
sit down at the keyboard. i
>
type......
>
>
January 22nd, 1998
>
david b. rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:27:06 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the california scrambled eggs time zone
rag
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friends
and others:
to all
who are interested in hearing of my adventures, i am still
whacked
out from the intensity and the momentum of the train. no
insomnia,
thankfully, but not much poem or prose at the present time. so
instead,
> i
thought i'd send my brakeman's bandana. or a banana why i am not a
>
painter, oranges, the egg on the bridge and WCW's walk thereone.
>
and questions of what comprises 'real
poetry' in this unreal
>
surreal life, the answer to which i cannot reply.
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:22:34 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
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Ksenija
Simic wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I just think this because of the title.
Lowell signifies Jack -- it
>
> can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown. Also,
>
> I bet Jack did not have a great liver.
>
> i agree with you - he must have known, or he
wouldn't be singing a song
>
called 'jack and neil'. right?
>
>
ksenija
Tom
Waits knew. No question!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:17:48 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Burroughs & Antonioni.
In-Reply-To: <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>
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Tonino
Guerra (an italian screenwriter friend to Antonioni)
writes
in his diary:
"In
London, [was 1967?] in a private apartment i have seen Burroughs
along
with young people smoking strange cigarettes.
I was
about to accept a cigarette but Michelangelo Antonioni
has
beaten on my hands and he waved me sign to decline."
amici,
there's
any further info bout Burroughs Antonioni connection?
saluti,
Rinaldo.
--------
"Lo
sai perche' e' l'eta' piu' bella?
Perche'
non ce la ricordiamo"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:25:09 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: mike rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Biblio
In-Reply-To: <706e2e69.34c9ce3b@aol.com>
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At
06:19 AM 1/24/98 EST, you wrote:
>Dear
Bill,
>Yes,
I agree with you, the piece seemed inappropriate in an issue devoted to
>notable
deaths of 1997. The New York Times is
free to print whatever they
>want,
of course and I didn't find the article inaccurate, just out of place.
>They
consistently want to make some point about the Beats not being quite
>legitimate,
I guess. Seems strange to tell a story
about something that
Allen
>was
involved with as a young person and not even mention that he was a poet,
>cultural
leader or political activist. I guess
they feel the most important
>thing
about Ginsberg is that he allowed his friend Herbert Huncke to store
>stolen
materials in his apartment when he was 20 years old.
>I
don't think they're going to catch on to his importance for a few more
>years.
>Yours,
>Bill
Morgan
>
>
You
know all of those articles in that issue of the magazine, were off the
Beam
slightly. They wanted to print something
besides the same old rehashed
dreck. Every article in that issue had an odd
slant. The Times is the same
operation
that put Allen Ginsberg's obituary on its front page. He did not
go
unnoticed.
Mike
Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:14:49 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
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Subject: Re: Zyprexa blues #235
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Marie
Countryman wrote:
>
>
david: this is just wonderful stream of consciousness and so detailed and
>
expressive. wonderful wonderful.
> mc
>
thanks
marie. i'm happy with it as far as it
goes. much better with
detail
than usual. i caught myself and blocked
off many of my usual
"and"s
which probably helped provide the "bop" to it. Some of my
previous
typing with its "and" "and" "and" style had been
rightly
accused
of having "no Bop." Maybe if
i get the bop down on the keyboard
i'll
even be able to tell my left from right foot in using the aerobics
video
my father gave me for Xmas!!!!!!!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:25:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule
In-Reply-To: <199801232347.SAA19495@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Marie
and any interested Beat-list members:
When I
saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided
for the
list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I
wondered
if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether
you
have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece
of art.
I'd
appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.
Thanks,
j grant
>while
in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
>cafe,
i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
>soule
> i
was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up
>to
this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
>the
musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
>
>scars
>
>the
scars upon my heart are growing sore
>again.
i feel their unhealed ridges tear.
>they
bleed in riptide as the bled before
>
>the
silent shock that taught me to ignore
>the
suffering became my first affair;
>the
scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>
>the
seam in my protective armor tore
>away,
and that was all the scars could bear
>they
bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
>my
heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
>it
will not heal like sores exposed to air.
>the
scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>
>the
open wounds these cicatrices wore
>in
pain cannot be hidden anywhere;
>they
bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
>the
jail of my unloving has a door
>which
hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
>the
scars upon my heart are growing sore;
>the
bleed in riptide as they bled before.
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:31:11 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: bad liver kerouac connection?
In-Reply-To: <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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>>
I bet Jack did not have a great liver.
>
> i
agree with you - he must have known, or he wouldn't be singing a song
>called
'jack and neil'. right?
>
>ksenija
>
>
kerouac
says:
i got
my idea for spontaneous prose from letters from cassady
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:19:26 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the best of Marie Countryman poetry
In-Reply-To: <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Marie
says:
friends
and others:
to all
who are interested in hearing of my adventures, i am still
whacked
out from the intensity and the momentum of the train. no
insomnia,
thankfully, but not much poem or prose at the present time. so
instead,
Rinaldo
replies:
i've
archived yr following gem prose/poem/writing
in my
bright memory section of the brain or in the
universal
brain, thanks,
--------------------------------------------------
hi by Marie Countryman
didja
ever walk down the streets
of your
neighborhood
with
ears wide open,
quiet
quietly
and
hear the two guys up the hill arguing,
as
usual, over whose fielstone wall is best
the
sounds of wet leaves dry leaves
squishy
and crackling
tugging
at your nostrils to open just a bit more
to
inhale
to
savor
this
autumnal fragrance
didya
just stop
and
shut
your eyes and all movement
and
surfed the autumnal audio waves?
moms
talking to toddlers wafting out of windows
still
open to the night breeze
birds
land on branches, branches creaking
the
noise your feet make on the cement gritty sidwalk
a
mufller problem
that to
date had been just a part of my white noise
up here
in my apartment
suddently
becomes a
particular
muffler patter
easily
distinguished
real
car, real driver, real muffler problem,
don t
look
you
know that car, it lives two houses over
the
noises of living:
geese
in formation overhead
smaller
hardier winter northland birds
cheeping
and
there up overhead, squirrels
squabble
as i scribble
hey you
guys, have any of you ever done that ?
...........anyone?
Thu, 6
Nov 1997
--------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:50:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton /
Abishag-King David
In-Reply-To: <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Just
received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the
list
might be interested.
j grant
>Subject:
JCNEWS: Pres. Clinton's injudicious indiscretions
>Sender:
jcnews@yosemite.leepfrog.com
>Are
there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky and
with
Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old and
ailing?
(I Kings I:1-4)
>The
words of Robert Frost come to mind:
PROVIDE, PROVIDE
The witch that came (the withered hag)
To wash the steps with pail and rag,
Was once the baauty Abishag,
The picture pride of Hollywood.
Too many fall from great and good
For you to doubt the likelihood.
Die early and avoid the fate
Or if predestined to die late
Make up your mind to die in state.
Make the whole stock exchange Your
own!
If need be occupy a throne,
Where nobody can call YOU crone.
Some have relied on what they knew;
Others on being simply true.
What worked for them might work for
you.
No memory of having starred
Atones for later disregard,
Or keeps the end from being hard.
Better to go down dignified
With boughten friendship at your side
Than none at all. PROVIDE, PROVIDE!.
Signed: Earl Rose
>earl
rose <erose@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:02:39 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton /
Abishag-King David
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
In a
message dated 24-Jan-98 11:48:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM
writes:
<<
Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the
list might be interested.
j grant
>>
Response
from one listmember: Wrong. I am NOT interested. It's hard enough to
sift
through non-Beat posts on this list without the addition of a news item
that's
already on every other bandwave in the universe.
Take
note, Susan and others. Watch this topic become a thread and source of
contention
among us all!
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:25:15 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri
<love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton /
Abishag-King David
i'm
ignoring the whole damn thing. i refuse
to read anything in the papers
about
it or watch the news. and this is all i
will say on the subject.
DEFINITELY
NOT beat.
ciao,
sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From:
IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, January 24, 1998 12:15 PM
Subject:
Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David
>In
a message dated 24-Jan-98 11:48:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM
writes:
>
><<
Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought
the
>
list might be interested.
> j
grant
> >>
>
>Response
from one listmember: Wrong. I am NOT interested. It's hard enough
to
>sift
through non-Beat posts on this list without the addition of a news
item
>that's
already on every other bandwave in the universe.
>
>Take
note, Susan and others. Watch this topic become a thread and source of
>contention
among us all!
>
>Maggie
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:47:51 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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hi jo:
i
wasn't thinking in terms of altered art, just was wanting to share the pome
with
others. i have some bad carpal tunnel syndrome; if you go over most of my
previous
posts of others works, you will probably find the same. it's e mail,
i'm not
claiming anything or altering any thing to make any point. it's just
that if
i had to use caps, i'd be writing a lot less. and sharing very few
gems
among the rubble.
just me
if this
is a big issue for you and not others, perhaps we can back channel. in
fact,
as it is really a non beat issue, i'd appreciate private email, as we
have
been swamped by too much off topic stuff of late.
if you
don't think it's off topic, then continue the thread.
didn't
mean nuthin by it.
sorry
if you misread.
mc
jo
grant wrote:
>
Marie and any interested Beat-list members:
>
>
When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided
>
for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I
>
wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether
>
you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece
> of
art.
>
>
I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.
>
>
Thanks,
>
> j
grant
>
>
>while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
>
>cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
>
>soule
>
> i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up
>
>to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
>
>the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
>
>
>
>scars
>
>
>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore
>
>again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.
>
>they bleed in riptide as the bled before
>
>
>
>the silent shock that taught me to ignore
>
>the suffering became my first affair;
>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>
>
>
>the seam in my protective armor tore
>
>away, and that was all the scars could bear
>
>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
>
>
>my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
>
>it will not heal like sores exposed to air.
>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>
>
>
>the open wounds these cicatrices wore
>
>in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;
>
>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
>
>
>the jail of my unloving has a door
>
>which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore;
>
>the bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
>
http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:33:36 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan
<WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Bad Liver & a Broken Heart
Anyone
who has any doubts about the Tom Wait's alllusion to Kerouac should chec
k the
album jacket for "Small Change."
There's a picture of Kerouac on the dre
sser.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:00:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule
In-Reply-To: <199801242050.PAA15919@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thought
writers might respond with thoughts. Whether they would approve, or
disapprove
if a work of theirs was altered--E-mail or no. Not a big deal at
all.
Just curious.
j grant
>hi
jo:
>i
wasn't thinking in terms of altered art, just was wanting to share the pome
>with
others. i have some bad carpal tunnel syndrome; if you go over most of my
>previous
posts of others works, you will probably find the same. it's e mail,
>i'm
not claiming anything or altering any thing to make any point. it's just
>that
if i had to use caps, i'd be writing a lot less. and sharing very few
>gems
among the rubble.
>just
me
>if
this is a big issue for you and not others, perhaps we can back channel. in
>fact,
as it is really a non beat issue, i'd appreciate private email, as we
>have
been swamped by too much off topic stuff of late.
>if
you don't think it's off topic, then continue the thread.
>didn't
mean nuthin by it.
>sorry
if you misread.
>mc
>
>jo
grant wrote:
>
>>
Marie and any interested Beat-list members:
>>
>>
When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided
>>
for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I
>>
wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether
>>
you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece
>>
of art.
>>
>>
I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.
>>
>>
Thanks,
>>
>>
j grant
>>
>>
>while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans
>>
>cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon
>>
>soule
>>
> i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up
>>
>to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)
>>
>the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.
>>
>
>>
>scars
>>
>
>>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore
>>
>again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.
>>
>they bleed in riptide as the bled before
>>
>
>>
>the silent shock that taught me to ignore
>>
>the suffering became my first affair;
>>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>>
>
>>
>the seam in my protective armor tore
>>
>away, and that was all the scars could bear
>>
>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>>
>
>>
>my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;
>>
>it will not heal like sores exposed to air.
>>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.
>>
>
>>
>the open wounds these cicatrices wore
>>
>in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;
>>
>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>>
>
>>
>the jail of my unloving has a door
>>
>which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.
>>
>the scars upon my heart are growing sore;
>>
>the bleed in riptide as they bled before.
>>
>> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
>> Details
on-line at
>>
http://www.bookzen.com
>> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY
BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:23:26 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject:
Re: Lewinsky-Clinton /
Abishag-King David
MIME-Version:
1.0
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7bit
jo
grant wrote:
>
>
Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the
>
list might be interested.
> j
grant
>
>
>Are there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky and
>
with Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old and
>
ailing? (I Kings I:1-4)
>
>
>The words of Robert Frost come to mind:
PROVIDE, PROVIDE
though
i doubt that the parallel is very strong - i must admit i found
the
cross-post amusing. i definitely follow
politics and enjoy the
gifts
and foibles of politicians. it seems
that the new beat
definitions
tend to eliminate anything even tangentially political from
the
pantheon. i suppose the use of
clippings concerning the Vietnam War
would
have made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat and certainly his
involvement
at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would be
considered
treasonous to the beat cause.
thanks
for the cross-post. i must admit i was
on the brink of shifting
back to
digest form because the Beat-L was tending to be just bickering
about
what could be talked about (despite Bill's kind way of measuring
the
scope of the list) and i'm glad that some amusing comparisons
connecting
literature and real life today was thrown my way. Perhaps
there
is hope for the list in 1998 afterall.
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:24:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
MIME-Version:
1.0
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I'm
taking a moment to type out the text of this first poem in Planet
News by
Allen Ginsberg in hopes of beginning a heated dialogue not only
about
this poem but about Allen Ginsberg, his writing and his place in
history. We have complained about the poor treatment
Allen received in
year
end reviews -- yet, we have failed to do any better. So in tribute
to
Allen:
Who
Will Take Over the Universe?
A
bitter cold winter night
conspirators
at cafe tables
discovering mystic jails
The
Revolution in America
already begun not bombs but sit
down strikes on top submarines,
on sidewalks nearby City Hall --
How
many families control the States?
Ignore the Government,
send your protest to Clint
Murchison.
The
Indians won their case with Judge McFate
Peyote safe in Arizona --
In my room the sick junky
shivers on the
7th day
Tearful, reborn to the
Winter.
Che
Guevera has a big cock
Castro's balls are pink --
The
Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs
over America like
dirty linen
draped over the wintery red sunset,
Fumes of Unconscious Gas
emanate from his
corpse
and hypnotize the Egyptian intellectuals --
He
grinds his teeth in horror & crosses his
thigh bones over his
skull
Dust flows out of his asshole
his hands are full of bacteria
The worm is at his eye --
He's declaring conterrevolutions in
the
Worm-world,
my cat threw him up last
Thursday.
&
Forrestal flew out his window like an Eagle --
America's
spending money to overthrow the Man.
Who are the rulers of the
earth?
January
6, 1961
may the
discussions begin!!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:55:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton
/ Abishag-King David
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
In a
message dated 24-Jan-98 4:44:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, race@MIDUSA.NET
writes:
<<
it seems that the new beat definitions tend to eliminate anything even
tangentially
political from the pantheon. i suppose
the use of clippings
concerning
the Vietnam War would have made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat
and
certainly his involvement at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would
be
considered treasonous to the beat cause.
>>
What
"new beat definitions," David? I think you're really stretching here.
Jo
Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Comments about Ginsberg, in any context,
are
entirely Beat.
For
those of us who don't get the list in digest form, complaining about off-
topic
posts is perhaps especially necessary and legitimate.
I don't
understand why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp. We
really
had a few days of great discussion rolling, and I, for one, was glad
for it
and a participant in it.
Perhaps
even more relevant was the fact that among the postings there were so
many
different authors, posts by people who normally don't post. They came out
to
discuss Kerouac as poet and other Beat-related stuff. It was refreshing!!!
It was
exciting!!
Old-timers
to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
content.
The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent
to you
directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
I did
not.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:07:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman
<the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>
Subject: pardon the minor spam. . .
MIME-Version:
1.0
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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20"
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Hey
Beat-l,
I
figured there was a few of you who might be interested in my website, =
so I'm
extended an invitation for all fans of John Coltrane to come by =
and see
what's going on at The Trane Station ( =
http://www.lunatic-media.com/tranestation
).
Pardon
the minor spam,
Bruce
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bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey =
Beat-l,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>I figured there was a =
few of
you who=20
might
be interested in my website, so I'm extended an invitation for all =
fans
of=20
John
Coltrane to come by and see what's going on at The Trane Station ( =
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.lunatic-media.com/tranestation">http://www.lunatic-med=
ia.com/tranestation</A>=20
).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=3DArial size=3D2>Pardon the minor spam,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=3DArial size=3D2>Bruce</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20--
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:26:05 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton /
Abishag-King David
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As
tempted as I am to simply ignore the Lewinsky/Clinton thread in the hopes
that it
dies, I will say that the only beat connection here for me would be that
the
cultural revolution we associate with the beats is far from complete.
Obviously
Cotton Mather and his spiritual descendants still thrive, or this non-
story,
which at best should be a minor chortle, would not be making America and
her
sexual dementia the laughingstock of the world.
James
Stauffer
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:30:05 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton /
Abishag-King David
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Tsk,
Tsk, David, your knuckles have been slapped!
An old timer like you
offending
in such
egregious fashion!
James
Stauffer
IDDHI
wrote: . . .
>
Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
>
content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent
> to
you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
>
> I
did not.
> MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:46:34 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Back to Allen (was Re:
Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David)
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James
Stauffer wrote:
>
>
Tsk, Tsk, David, your knuckles have been slapped! An old timer like you
> offending
> in
such egregious fashion!
>
>
James Stauffer
>
>
IDDHI wrote: . . .
Actually,
i felt that the comments (except for me being an old-timer --
less
than a year under my belt) made quite a bit of sense. I offered
the
poem from Planet News as a sort of assertive reply hoping that all
with
memoires of Allen or thoughts and beliefs too knotted up in the
emotion
of last spring will join in a re-eulogizing of Allen (and
perhaps
later or between William as well). My
intention is for the
Planet
News poem to provide a direct springboard for those who prefer
critical
commentary -- but also because within the poem are glimpses of
so many
images which might LINK to other passages in other poems or
other
stories about Allen and perhaps the type of fun and comraderie
which
increased the traffic excitedly over cybersex before remembering
we'd
lost the scope can be re-directed and electrify a wonderful eulogy
until
Valentine's Day and beyond of that great Cupid of the Beat
Generation
Allen Ginsberg.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:59:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Masters of the Beat Universe
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Jo
Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Even though I think you're really
stretching
here.
Are
there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky
and
with
Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old
and
ailing,
even if she is just "Saluting the Meat God of XX Century..."
[AG] And it is my firm believe that everything
posted to this list is
beat,
everything. Further, "[t]he reader
should know that this is just
a
collection of dreams that I scribbled ... ." [JK]
Comments
about Ginsberg, in any context, are entirely Beat, but
I
suppose the use of clippings concerning the Vietnam War would have
made
Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat and certainly his involvement
at the
1968 Democratic National Convention would be considered
treasonous
to the beat cause. "The Earth is
Saved! Next Number!" [AG]
Complaining
about offtopic posts is perhaps especially necessary and
legitimate. "Some have relied on what they knew;
Others on being simply
true.
What worked for them might work for you."
[RF] "There's no
rain,
there's no me, (there's no such thing as beat list topics) I'm
telling
you man sure as shit. [JK] I don't
understand why this concept
is so
hard for some people to grasp. "I
could say a lots more but ain't
got
time or sense." [JK]
Perhaps
even more relevant was the fact that among the postings there
were so
many different authors, posts by people who normally don't
post. "Hey you guys, have any of you ever
done that ?" [MC] I am NOT
interested. Watch this topic become a thread and source
of contention
among
us all! The political/religious analogy
Jo posted could easily
have
been sent to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
Old-timers
to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
content. But, it seems that the new beat definitions
tend to eliminate
anything
even tangentially political from the pantheon.
My apologies to
the
list once again. Then again, the list can "Bite my naked nut, roll
my
bones" [JK], cause I decide what is beat, not you. After all, I have
been
beaten. But, I will say with a
"touch of vocal flattery" [AG],
that
when I see a beat list post, I "open the envelope quickly." [WW]
Then
I wondered if, because you appear to
never use anything beat in
your
posts, whether you have the right to extend your STYLE to another
when
reproducing a piece of sacred art.
After all, kerouac says: i got
my idea
for spontaneous prose from letters from cassady". Jazz killed
itself,
but don't let (the beat list) kill itself.
[JK]
These
beat list posts are not beat, nor are they off-topic, they simply
are. If you wish, make them cease to exist with
the touch of a key, you
control
the universe known to you. Go, cat
go. Carl Perkins is dead.
Blow
cat blow. Jr. Wells is dead. No, cat no.
Luther Allison has
died. The BEAT goes on, even though Sonny Bono is
dead.
Show me
the money.
--
AG =
Allen Ginsberg quotes
RF =
Robert Frost quotes
JK =
Jack Kerouac quotes
WW =
Walt Whitman quotes
MC =
Marie Countryman
Also,
some from Joe Grant, Marie, Rinaldo, me, David and Maggie.
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:42:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: sleeipng
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nights.
insominia, talking about the cure of my insomnia, all
my anti medicine
friends
and dear husband has insisted i take melatonin for a week or two
until
my body regains some time sense of sleeping, worked instantly. so
we were
talking about health and sleep, and someone quipped that william
probably
didn't sleep well, partying etc. and my
impression was except
for
special events i thought he husbanded his rest very well. talking to
william, I got the impression of him laying quietly
half awake,
listening
to his house, most of the night. He
said" i didn't hear the
furnace
come on, right away i knew something was wrong, went and looked
and
there was water every where. Later after a sump pump was put in he
said,
he woke up and didn't hear it working and called wayne and he got
it
going right away. another time he said,
he heard noises early in the
morning
in the kitchen that sounded heavier than one of the cats. It
turned
out a huge coon had begun coming in the cat window (that was one
of the
basement windows) up the stairs to the kitchen and feasting on
the cat
food william put out. He described it
as very large and snarly,
i don't
recall how they solved that.
william's
night.
half a
sleep during his quiet.
listening
to the sounds of the house.
he
always took care of his sleep, furnace off, water everywhere,
sump
pump put in, not sumping,
a
heavier sound than cat,
racoon
comingin to the k early morning night,
padding
in his jams, fixing a special bowl
for one
feline or both. muttering my pretty
pitch
pace
so
david, i have loved your posts, and i am listening in you say i
should
posts these thoughts i have for while they may have no point it
is nice
to share. i was stunned at the post
that said that these were
ordinary
guys that lucked out with a good publicity,
the publicity
might
of made or helped their careers but having meet both allen and
william,
neither were ordinary men. But many people aren't ordinary,
many
are. I am not an ordinary person, doesn't mean i will ever be
famous
or influential etc. but to imagine thoseguys as ordinary men with
ordinary
talents would be wrong. no meaning to the word extraordinary
if you think that. Extraordinary people scare, offend and stick out,
even if
they are harmless and to not much point. They also are often
fun,
imaginative, creative, and sometimes like allen and william men of
genius. I know that william is great to many for
being the writer and
artist
he was, to some this is much more important than the man he was.
I liked
the man he was. I am not an
intellectual, i have a native
intelligence
and i love that both these guys had a will to really live
their
lives.
hey my
pen name has been patricia elliott for a long time, tonight i
thought
of changing it to Pitch pace, i thought it was kind of bouncy.
love to
you "old timers and young snappers.
patricia