=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:24:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: kerouac as poet

In-Reply-To:  <34C698FA.7646@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 06:55 PM 1/21/98 -0600, you wrote:

>john boggs wrote:

>>

>> I am two days new to beat-l and have been looking for somewhere to jump

>> into the discussion without disturbing the natural flow of conversation.

>> here goes, please forgive any faux-pas.

>>

>> somewhat indirectly on the subject of whether jack kerouac was a good

>> poet, I was at the cleveland museum of art with a very good friend of

>> mine. we disagree vehemtly on the subject of modern art. he kept trying

>> to logically analyze pieces of contemporary art, with the result that it

>> was far inferior to the great masters of old. he, and many others, don't

>> realise art isn't a dialectical process, it's about feeling and

>> intuition. you either like it or you don't, and very often (especially

>> with 20th century art like picassso, gorecki and the beats) there is no

>> easy logical explanation.

>>

>> it's only my opinion is that kerouac is a very good poet, perhaps even a

>> great one (like ginsberg or pound), but with an art as esoteric as

>> poetry is, an opinion is really all that matters... you can't write up a

>> mathematical proof to determine who's a good poet and who's not. as the

>> philosopher santayana said- it's more important to know what you like

>> than to know why you like it.

>>

>> p.s. what on earth is cybersex? (i've only been online for four days and

>> am clueless about this)

>>

>> ______________________________________________________

>> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>i found your argument concerning Kerouac and poetics very well put.

>as for cybersex - i'm clueless as well.....it seems to be

>physiologically impossible and might create quite a mess on the computer

>screen!

>

>david rhaesa (race)

>salina, Kansas

>

>

 I can't believe noone knows about cybersex.  When I first got on the net,

I had it all the time in chat rooms.  That was just horny typing back and

forth about what you were going to do to her, and she back what she would

do to you.  These days, with the little TV cameras, people are doing nude

shows with consenting picturecamera people over internet telephone and

video hookups.  With 200 mhz of speed and a big modem and camera, you can

talk and see one another.  I have a friend who does it, but not cybersex.

Cybersex is old hat, but it was sort of empty I remember.  I haven't done

it since 1995.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:15:42 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Despite the fact that I think this is a rather silly thread, the idea that Jack

 had

no homosexual experiences at all flies in the face of all the evidence.  Jack,

especially when very drunk, would make it with men.,  He is the one that said

 "Blow

jobs, but no assholes".  Jack strikes me as primarily heterosexual for sure, but

 by

no means exclusively.

 

James Stauffer

 

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to

> reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I

> dont think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:19:46 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      cybersex (was Re: kerouac as poet)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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mike rice wrote:

>  I haven't done

> it since 1995.

>

> Mike Rice

 

rumor has it that according to Divine law two years of abstinence makes

one a cyber-virgin all over again :)

 

gypsy davey

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 00:10:01 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Surubu1 <Surubu1@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Hello.  This is new hat to me...only first day on the list, so bear with me.

 

Just wondering if anyone has seen the poems Ginzy wrote in the months just

after Kerouac died.  One in particular is titled "Memory Gardens" written in

October of 1969, and can be found in The Fall of America, 1972 by Allen.  The

last stanza reads:

 

Well, while I'm here I'll

     do the work --

and what's the Work?

     To ease the pain of living.

Everything else, drunken

     dumbshow.

 

I think this is quite obviously a reference to a passage from Visions of

Gerard (my personal Kerouac fave).  It reads:

 

     "I curse and rant nowaday because I don't want to have to work to make a

living and do childish work for other men (any lout can move a board from

hither to yonder) but'd rather sleep all day and stay  it up all night

scrubbling these visions of the world which is onlyan ethereal flower of a

world, the coal, the chute, the fire and the ashes all, imaginary blossoms,

nonetheless, "Somebody's got to do the work-a the world"...

 

I don't know if Jack and Allen consummated their love; I say their love

because I feel that there was a definate love from both parties.  Whether or

not that Jack's love was the same as Ginsberg's is something I'm not sure

we'll ever positively know.  I doubt that it was the same.  But, these poems

written in mourning make it clear to me that

Allen was in love with Jack all along.

 

Anyone have any further insights???

 

Sundee

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:43:11 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Surubu1 wrote:

> But, these poems

> written in mourning make it clear to me that

> Allen was in love with Jack all along.

 

my impression is that Allen had an enormous capacity to LOVE friends in

many different layers and depths and that the preoccupation with the

sexuality questions missed much of the power of love in this kind man.

 

gypsy davey

salina, Kansas

>

> Anyone have any further insights???

>

> Sundee

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:57:54 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

 

James Stauffer wrote:

 

<<the idea that Jack had no homosexual experiences at all flies in the face

of all the evidence. >>

 

it's also absurd to call a person who has had sexual experiences with

someone of the same gender a homosexual, based simply on that fact.  many

men & women have such experiences and remain essentially heterosexual or

bisexual.  people experience different types of love and also often just

want to experiment.

 

ciao, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:48:16 -0800

Reply-To:     mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

MIME-version: 1.0

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David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:

>

> Surubu1 wrote:

> > But, these poems

> > written in mourning make it clear to me that

> > Allen was in love with Jack all along.

>

> my impression is that Allen had an enormous capacity to LOVE friends in

> many different layers and depths and that the preoccupation with the

> sexuality questions missed much of the power of love in this kind man.

>

> gypsy davey

> salina, Kansas

> >

> > Anyone have any further insights???

> >

> > Sundee

 

 

It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the

ordinary man.  Love was definitely a subjective understanding between

many of the beat generation people.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:49:07 -0800

Reply-To:     mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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sherri wrote:

>

> James Stauffer wrote:

>

> <<the idea that Jack had no homosexual experiences at all flies in the face

> of all the evidence. >>

>

> it's also absurd to call a person who has had sexual experiences with

> someone of the same gender a homosexual, based simply on that fact.  many

> men & women have such experiences and remain essentially heterosexual or

> bisexual.  people experience different types of love and also often just

> want to experiment.

>

> ciao, sherri

 

 

i think you hit the nail on the head sherri.

eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:37:58 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

In-Reply-To:  <34C60AC5.1088@zipcon.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Tom Christopher wrote:

 

> i sincerely doubt that ginsberg had his first gay experiance with

> kerouac

>

Just saying what i read decside for yourself, i dont believe i made it

up:)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:46:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

In-Reply-To:  <34C6C574.235F@sunflower.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Read it in a book called Angel Headed Hipster like i said in my origanal

comment, i guess some of dont read very thoroughly.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:02:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Thom Colahan <rook@FREENET.NETHER.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

For some reason i think a lot of people here have missed the point we are

all to caught up in paranoia and defending our actions/words that we are

unable to really be open to any kind of discussion. I hate to use the word

but such close-mindness is not very "beat". excuse the bloody cliche, how

can a discussion of beat topics or any topics exist when no one will

listen and i dont listen either so i will go back to talking to myself

about "beat realted topics" i listne better:)

 

                        BI BI Lindsay

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 06:48:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Changes in Naked Lunch text

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in

the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and

the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of

typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked

only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a sickness",

so they may be more changes later in the text.)

 

[listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]

 

xxxvii/ix.3from bttm   delaudid --> dilaudid

xlii/xiv.3from bttm    a vast hive --> vast hives

xlv/xvii.1             Heiderberg --> Heisenberg

xlvi/xviii.9fr btm     Occam --> Ockham

xlvi/xviii.7fr btm     Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus

 

It would be interesting to know who made these changes, and on what

basis, and whether there were changes made from the original 1959

Olympia Press edition and the 1962 First American edition....

 

Awhile back on this list I noted that the 1964 french translation of

NL had both omissions *and* additions compared to the 1992 english

text--but perhaps it *did* faithfully follow one of the earlier

english editions.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:11:22 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

In-Reply-To:  <34C6C574.235F@sunflower.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Sorry, I didnt mean to make anyone think that I knew Jack Kerouac. I just

get this feeling, from his writing and stuff, that he wasn't a homosexual.

 

On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> >

> > For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to

> > reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I

>

> wow, i didn't know we had someone who know jack from that time,  how did

> you know him or are you a scholar, is this information based on some

> material that i can access.

> patricia

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 05:33:29 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Julian Ruck <julian42@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: The linguistics of cybersex

Content-Type: text/plain

 

 well, as far as c-sex goes...

 i've tried it...a few times...*g*..

 but i think that as far as the beats would have been concerned...

they would have had no problem doing it...

 would have been better than going at it alone....

 *g*...

 -julian

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:52:19 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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In a message dated 1/21/98 10:51:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,

mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU writes:

 

> It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the

>  ordinary man.

I think you're overstating this, Eric.  They were ordinary men who wrote well

and took advantage of the notoriety afforded by the Howl Obscenity bust.  They

had the talent to continue the wave after the initial burst of publicity put

them in the public eye.  Meanwhile, they were youngish fellows trying to get

laid as often and as variously as possible.  We all "understand love" in

different, very personal ways...even Ginsberg, I'm certain.  To hold him up as

having the eefuss eyefuss the love thang is the same kind of hyperbole he and

Jack used to extol the superhuman sexual powers of Neal.  It is part of the

Beat mystique or mythos or whatever you wish to call it.  These were real

people subject to the same faults and flaws and foibles, the same flights of

genius, the same flashes of brilliance that are common to all of us.

 

Understand, please, that I am not attempting to minimize their accomplishments

or the value of their works.  I wouldn't be on the list if I didn't believe in

the greatness of the artistry.  Nor did I intend at the top of this post, to

suggest that their reknown was mere happenstance resulting from the bust.  I

have a tendency to oversimplify...I'm certain their works would have come to

light if the bust had never occured.

Dennis

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:38:34 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      scope

 

I'd like to use the recent postings on cybersex to illustrate a point I

made in my last message on the scope of beat-l.  One or two messages on

cybersex woudn't have been so bad.  But common sense should prevail.  A

thread that has nothing to do with Beat authors and their works has gone

on too long.  I'm sure there are more appropriate lists to discuss

cybersex.  So let's move on to topics that are relevant to the list.

Bill Gargan, listowner.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:01:08 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac as a straight queer

Comments: cc: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Nancy B. Brodsky wrote:

 

>For Kerouac to have been Ginsberg's first lover, Kerouac would have had to

>reciprocate Ginsberg's feelings and I dont think he did, at that age. I

>dont think Kerouac had any homosexual experiences at all...

 

YOU HAVE NOT DONE YOUR HOMEWORK. GET YE TO THE LIBRARY.

 

-JOHN HASBROUCK

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:25:16 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac as a straight queer

MIME-Version: 1.0

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eric mayhew wrote:

 

>this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit

>eric

 

I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the

delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and

authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go

right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,

well-articulated position.

 

Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as

well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has

been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of

course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of

HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while

there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is

some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My

opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to

be deeply involved with research in the field.

 

If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would

like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally

know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.

He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which

he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or

so? Any comments?

 

-John Hasbrouck

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:29:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac as a straight queer

In-Reply-To:  <34C71077.353A@tezcat.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would

attract homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!

 

                         Sara Feustle

                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

                      Cronopio, cronopio?

 

 

On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:

 

> eric mayhew wrote:

>

> >this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit

> >eric

>

> I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the

> delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and

> authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go

> right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,

> well-articulated position.

>

> Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as

> well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has

> been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of

> course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of

> HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while

> there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is

> some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My

> opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to

> be deeply involved with research in the field.

>

> If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would

> like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally

> know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.

> He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which

> he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or

> so? Any comments?

>

> -John Hasbrouck

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:30:18 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nils-Oivind Haagensen <Nils-Oivind.Haagensen@LILI.UIB.NO>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac as poet

In-Reply-To:  <"noralf.uib.220:22.01.98.05.05.51"@uib.no>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I haven't followed this thread, i just stumbeled on it today, so if i'm

repeating somebody, i'm sorry... Heres my two cents anyway:

According to Jack he was a poet in all his writing (in the preface to

Pomes all Sizes:"you call yourselves poets writing short little lines, i'm

a poet but i write lines many pages long...") and that's because, in my

view, he doesn't generate plots in his novels, but concentrates on "the

details of life," the details of life being Neal Cassadys kitchen zink or

the slickwood stools of an old diner; the details of life being, also, as

in Proust, the few moments of self-recognition, of identification with

the flow of time; the details of life this way being the poetry of life.

I consider him a poet in that respect. Is he a good one, a great one?

(By who's standard?) I don't know, who's to say?

regards

nh

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:44:02 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: cybersex

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

patricia, i'm so glad to be back and getting your thoughts and posts and

openness. in the 60s i got everything a girl wouldn't want. remember the free

clinics of the 60s? i was a frequent flyer back then.

mc

 

Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

> Sara Feustle wrote:

> >

> > *laughing hysterically* I wonder what Beat cybersex would look/sound

> > like.... On second thought, maybe I don't wanna know... *laughing harder*

>

> well, honey , i take my sex pretty serious, don't find cyber sex too

> hysterical or jerking off outlandish,i remember phone sex fondly, but

> most of it for me is fun and a real grind.  I asked william about his

> sex life in his late 70's and he said

> "well usually when the matter comes up, by the time i get on the phone

> and the opportunity is there it doesn't matter anymore".  Of his

> reaction to my blessed promiscuity (that i much enjoyed) he was neither

> judgemental or at all interested.  I heard once when he was describing

> me to someone, he said with a thin lipped smile, well she is very

> popular with the gentlemen.  He was much more interested in the fact

> that my word was very good, a developed sense of humor, (he also liked

> people to cook) and that while i was a self determined Bitch, i did not

> do underhanded or mean things. Once i decided to marry i never had a

> moment that it wasn't easy to be faithful, before i was married and

> before aids came in the picture i usually took a new lover every month

> or so and kept some of the old ones for over twenty years.  It is a

> different time.  The miracle of my happily spent youth was i never got a

> sid. well the crabs once. could all this be much more about my sex life

> than any one ever wanted to hear.  if so back channel the flames because

> nonbeat flames actually don't have to be posted to the list.

> I really laugh about when i asked william about his sex life, which i

> never took his answer as the gospel but he did love my audacity at

> times. William was much more elegant than i am, i am very gauche, but

> actually becomming more civilized by the decade.

> patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:44:27 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

 

Dennis wrote:

 

<<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the

>  ordinary man.

I think you're overstating this, Eric. >>

 

Dennis, i can't agree with you.  there are people in this world who having

an unusual amount of love to give.  Mother Theresa comes to mind.  i think

both  AG and JK (Jack's was more abstract and personal and screwed up with

his demons, maybe) had this, but Allen was a true lionheart - anyone who has

seen him participate in rallies, watched him talking to people can see this

amazing spirit of love in him.  i don't think Eric was referring to Allen's

sexual love, rather all forms of his love.  his overwhelming love for

humankind.

 

i don't see how this can be construed as AG being a saint, perfect or

anything else.  just a man with an amazing, extraordinary capacity for love.

 

ciao, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:15:54 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: scope

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

thanks, bill

mc

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I'd like to use the recent postings on cybersex to illustrate a point I

> made in my last message on the scope of beat-l.  One or two messages on

> cybersex woudn't have been so bad.  But common sense should prevail.  A

> thread that has nothing to do with Beat authors and their works has gone

> on too long.  I'm sure there are more appropriate lists to discuss

> cybersex.  So let's move on to topics that are relevant to the list.

> Bill Gargan, listowner.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:48:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

Subject:      Re: movies

In-Reply-To:  <3e089546.34c662fe@aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 21 Jan 1998, IDDHI wrote:

 

> In a message dated 20-Jan-98 11:46:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> Sadenigma@AOL.COM writes:

>

> << does anyone know if WSB had a favorite movie?    what was it?      or if he

>  liked movies at all?

>

>

>        chad >>

 

I did an interview with Burroughs in which the relevant topic of

discussion was filmic aspects of his work. We talked a bit about movies,

and one that he particularly liked was "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" He

didn't like any of the film adaptations of Hemingway's books. The last

movie he had seen at the time I did the interview with him was Outbreak.

 

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:11:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: love love love

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>> Jeez, has anyone ever had cybersex on here? Scary thought....

>

>Happen all the time, just got to look for subtle clues.

 

like the name of this list?

 

KEN

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:12:18 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Nancy,

 

I think alot of the confusion around this topic is that we are in an era (post

stonewall, or whatever) when people are being asked to think of themselves as

either gay or straight.  I think it was Gore Vidal who said that there are only

homosexual acts not homsexual people or something to that effect.  Through much

 of

history individuals who whose history was almost but not entirely hetersexual

 saw

themselves as heterosexual.  Now they are being urged to define themnselves as

 gay

or bi.  This was not yet true when Jack and Allan were young.  And as Sherri and

others have pointed out a great many people have some experience outside their

dominant gender definition.  I think you are right, Jack was not a

 homosexual--but

he had a fairly extensive history of occasional homosexual acts.

 

James Stauffer

 

Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> Sorry, I didnt mean to make anyone think that I knew Jack Kerouac. I just

> get this feeling, from his writing and stuff, that he wasn't a homosexual.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:10:01 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: movies

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:48:09 -0500 from

              <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>

 

Neil or anyone else on the list:  I saw a film on witchcraft that WSB narrated

about 20 years ago.  I think it was called "Haxan" or something like that.  If

anyone has details:  director, correct title, etc.  please post.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:28:35 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jeff Taylor wrote:

>

> It would be interesting to know who made these changes, and on what

> basis, and whether there were changes made from the original 1959

> Olympia Press edition and the 1962 First American edition....

>

> Jeff Taylor

> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

> *******

 

i think this seems very interesting.  it demonstrates that slight

changes can change meaning and perhaps extends the notion of "word" as

"virus" to the point of "letters/characters" as "innoculation".

 

i hope that someone provides insight into the sources and motives for

these changes in text.

 

gypsy davey

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:37:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      The word "random" and WSB

MIME-Version: 1.0

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This is only tangentially Beat in content.  Feel free to delete.

 

Beat-related:

my introduction to William S. Burroughs was a spoken word LP called

"Breakthrough in the Grey Room".  At one point i had parts of it

memorized.  One of the tracks (i believe a lecture at Naropa) discusses

the ideas behind "random" cut-ups and the possibility of "randomness" in

general.

 

Non-Beat-related.

I'm currently working as an unofficial ambassador for the president

(named Tuna) of an intercollegiate debate organization on eDebate-L.  It

is a controversy that is long long in the making and is now embroiled in

discussions of organizational Constitution and By-Laws.

 

Semi-Beat-Related:

Ironically, the main controversy currently is about sections in the

By-Laws which employ the term "random" in an aspirational or imperative

sense.  It seems to me, from my memory, that the words of Burroughs

concerning "random" and "randomness" might come in handy in my

ambassadorial mode (side note: the president "Tuna" is currently reading

"Ghost of a Chance" and his critical commentary is one word: "nice.")

 

If people can backchannel me specific references and quotations

concerning the meanings of "random" from WSB or other beat authors I

would appreciate it.

 

Non-Beat Related:

i have done a search of Random in Bartlett's and found a couple nice

quotations (but only a couple) to provide some literary backing to a

post i'll probably design to send out by Sunday on eDebate.

 

Beat-Related:

Certainly, the notion of "randomness" has more literary grounding in the

era spawned by the beats with the inclusion of "spontaneous prose" and

"cut-ups" as part of the literary process.

 

Please send comments backchannel as this doesn't seem to justify

bandwidth (unless someone can find a way to turn the beat-related

portions into an interesting thread).

 

thanks in advance,

gypsy davey

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:42:14 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Pull My Daisy (exposition, please)

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980121170620.008694e0@pop.southeast.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Ginny and Randy, grazie per l'aiuto, (thanx for help me),

 

the literally italian translation of "pull my daisy"

is: "raccogli la mia margherita". the daisy (margherita)

is a fair flower with white petals that bloom in springtime

and summertime (in Italy and United States of America, i suppose).

 

in italian Margherita is also a first name of a person (female)

i dunno if it is too in american,

anyway the meaning of "margherita" is a lot poetic.

the lovers shed the petals as a romantic rite.

 

the "pull my daisy" has the meaning of someone to offer

a flower (exactly _my_ flower) as Kerouac poetry (id est).

 

_but_ the italian translator writes:

 

                Pull my daisy   Prendimi il pisello

 

this means that "pisello" has nothing to do with "margherita"

cuz of "pisello=pea" nothing to do with "daisy"... im' very

abashed but in italian slang "pisello"=_the sexual masculine organ_

that cracks me up the poetry of the Kerouac poem (excuse me

Randy but maybe the poetic group Ginsberg,Kerouac&Cassady have

a bit confused a delicate concept, of course, if u are into a

trainspottingesque plot u can only accept a phrase like "pull my daisy"

as "gentle" feeling, id est Pull my daisy=Pull my sexual masculine

organ), instead i think that Kerouac means "read my poem with a gentle

insight, i'm a delicate man".

 

strange fact of life, the translator is Carlo Alberto Corsi

who fine translated in the mid 70s the collected Gregory Corso poems,

now in 1997 (20 year later what's up!) he is following with such

a shoking trend i noticed also in Allen Ginsberg italian translation by

an another translator citicized to post-modernized poems which was

written in the 50s or 60s'

 

i cant imagine that Keroauc is a trainspotting-like character.

 

saluti a tutti voi,

e rigranzio per l'attenzione,

Rinaldo.

-------

 

randy wrote:

>rinaldo:

>call me immature, perverted or whatever but i always (since a few monthes

>ago wheni got the book) thought it was sexual. but then again, ginny, you

>may be right

>it is absurd. or as wsb quoted someone else "nothing is true. everything is

>permitted."

>randy

>At 03:29 PM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote:

>>In a message dated 98-01-21 12:49:26 EST, you write:

>>

>>> pull my daisy

>>

>>Rinaldo--

>>nothing. as a concept it has no logical merit to those trying to find common

>>ground between this writer and that writer and this genre and human minds et

>>cetera.

>>   "Tira la mia pratolina!" <--- thats it. in italiano, that's exactly

>what it

>>means.

>>what does your translation say?

>>--Ginny.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:42:10 -0800

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac as a straight queer

 

it has nothing to do with being a homophobe, Sara, and everything to do with

careless, facile and simplistic labelling.  AG considered himself gay, JK

didn't.  i think they know better than we ever can.  if we get into

labelling, then we have to consider the fact that JK had plenty of het sex -

which would then indicate bisexuality; however, i think Jack would know

better than any of us.  i personally, living in SF, have known many men who

have had same sex experiences, some over a long period of time, whom i would

not label as gay, nor do they call themselves that.

 

why do we find it so necessary to stick people in little boxes?

 

ciao, sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 8:06 AM

Subject: Re: Kerouac as a straight queer

 

 

>I personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would

>attract homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!

>

>                         Sara Feustle

>                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

>                      Cronopio, cronopio?

>

>

>On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:

>

>> eric mayhew wrote:

>>

>> >this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit

>> >eric

>>

>> I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the

>> delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and

>> authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go

>> right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,

>> well-articulated position.

>>

>> Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as

>> well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has

>> been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of

>> course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of

>> HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while

>> there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is

>> some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My

>> opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to

>> be deeply involved with research in the field.

>>

>> If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would

>> like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally

>> know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.

>> He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which

>> he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or

>> so? Any comments?

>>

>> -John Hasbrouck

>>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:52:06 -0800

Reply-To:     mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac as a straight queer

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Sara Feustle wrote:

>

> I personally find it intersting that this list, of all places, would

> attract homophobes. Mayhew, tell us you're not a homophobe!

>

>                          Sara Feustle

>                     sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

>                       Cronopio, cronopio?

>

> On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, John Hasbrouck wrote:

>

> > eric mayhew wrote:

> >

> > >this stuff about kerouac being homosexual is bullshit

> > >eric

> >

> > I wish to express my appreciation to Mr. Mayhew for resolving the

> > delicate issue under discussion with impressive confidence and

> > authority. While many posts on this list are so sophisticated as to go

> > right over my head, it's a relief to hear from someone with a precise,

> > well-articulated position.

> >

> > Now, while Jack Kerouac's penchant for active and passive fellatio, as

> > well as receptive anal intercourse and same-sex mutual masturbation has

> > been well documented by ALL of the principal Kerouac scholars, this of

> > course is NO REASON to attach the arbitrary and artificial label of

> > HOMOSEXUAL to him. After all, it has been argued elsewhere that, while

> > there are certainly ACTS which are unequivically homosexual, there is

> > some question as to the usefulness of the term homosexual AS A NOUN. My

> > opinion on this matter is, of course, classified, though I continue to

> > be deeply involved with research in the field.

> >

> > If I may steer the direction of the discussion on a new tangent, I would

> > like to suggest that Kerouac only sucked cock while drunk. I personally

> > know of no documentation of Kerouac sucking cock sober while an adult.

> > He himself mentions, in DR. SAX, the _great homosexual orgies_ in which

> > he took part during early adolescence. But what about after age 18 or

> > so? Any comments?

> >

> > -John Hasbrouck

> >

 

My comment was merely a statement with the intent of putting to rest any

thoughts that Jack Kerouac was a homosexual.  The discussion seemed

somewhat absurd to me based on my previous readings.

Sara, i hereby will assure that i am in no way a homophobe.  You should

not make speculative statements based on a short comment you received

from me over the internet.

If you wish to further discuss this topic, I would be happy to share my

views. Otherwise, let it be over and done with.

 

with love

eric d. mayhew

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:54:20 -0800

Reply-To:     mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

sherri wrote:

>

> Dennis wrote:

>

> <<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the

> >  ordinary man.

> I think you're overstating this, Eric. >>

>

> Dennis, i can't agree with you.  there are people in this world who having

> an unusual amount of love to give.  Mother Theresa comes to mind.  i think

> both  AG and JK (Jack's was more abstract and personal and screwed up with

> his demons, maybe) had this, but Allen was a true lionheart - anyone who has

> seen him participate in rallies, watched him talking to people can see this

> amazing spirit of love in him.  i don't think Eric was referring to Allen's

> sexual love, rather all forms of his love.  his overwhelming love for

> humankind.

>

> i don't see how this can be construed as AG being a saint, perfect or

> anything else.  just a man with an amazing, extraordinary capacity for love.

>

> ciao, sherri

 

 

Sherri

thanks for clearing up my statement.  You truly did have an

understanding of what i was talking about.  It is clear that some people

see love only in the physical, while others let it be part of their

entire existence.  There are many levels to this love incorporation.

eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:33:03 -0500

Reply-To:     mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mongo BearWolf <mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>

Organization: Dartmouth College

Subject:      Allen Ginsberg Questions

Comments: cc: kenr@paradisenet.cl

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi Folks...

 

Ken, a Canadian citizen residing in Chile, is doing some in-depth

research on Allen Ginsberg.  Since he has had some difficulty finding

reference works down there, he has asked me to pass some questions on to

the list.

 

IMPORTANT:  Since he is not subscribed, if you'd like to address these

questions, please be sure to reply to Ken directly at:

 

  kenr@paradisenet.cl

 

And if you'd like to copy me on your answers, that would be great!

 

Thanks!

 

--Mongo

 

 

======= KEN'S QUESTIONS =======================>

 

Kaddish:

 

1. "EMILY DICKINSON'S HORSES". I imagine he's referring to one of

Dickinson's poems; Do you know which one?

 

2. "CHEESEBOX PUBLIC SERVICE BUS". Does "public service" just

mean it's a government-run bus service? As for cheesebox, I seem

to remember that there was a brand of cheese years ago that came

in a long yellow rectangular box. Do you think that's what he's

referring to?

 

3. "YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN ME IN WOODBINE". Woodbine, as far as I can

tell, is

a town in southern New Jersey. Did it have any particular significance

in

Ginsberg's mother's life?

 

4. "STRAINED LAMB CARROTS". He's referring to baby food here, but

I've never heard the expression "lamb carrots". Is it just a way

of saying that they're small carrots?

 

5. On the last page, after mentioning his grandmother Rebecca,

Ginsberg refers to someone named David. Do you know who he is or

was?

 

 

Howl:

 

1. In the ninth paragraph: "PAINT HOTELS". What does this mean?

 

2. In the 14th paragraph: "FUGAZZI'S". I believe this is a cafe

in either New York or San Francisco. Do you know which?

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------

                     ...visit...

 

                   ALLEN GINSBERG:

              Shadow Changes into Bone

 

       The Clearinghouse for all things Ginsberg!

 

                 http://www.ginzy.com

--------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:41:32 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      the knifes of mrs adele mailer

In-Reply-To:  <199801212335.SAA27101@ionline.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Adele Mailer in _The Last Party_ it seems that

stated she was the lover of the Beat Generation

and Jack Kerouac made love as writing a stream

of consciousness quickly careless the partner.

Very sad self-control...

Adele Mailer was the 2th wife to Norman Mailer

she wrote a memories book.

 

saluti,

rinaldo.

-------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:42:42 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: movies/Chapaqua

In-Reply-To:  <199801212335.SAA27101@ionline.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

"M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET> writes:

>Nothing to do what WSB's favorite movies are/were, but

>_Chapaqua_ is now in release (movie w/ cinematography

>by Robert Frank, and stars Ginsberg, Orlovsky, Burroughs,

>Monk, etc.).  It was a 1966 (65?) release and won an Italian

>film award.  Check out your video stores. . .

>

>Mike

>

Mike,

1966--Chappaqua, by Conrand Rooks. the movie won

the _Leone d'argento_ (the runner-up, after _Leone d'oro_)

at the Festival del Cinema in Venice,Italy.

aside note Chappaqua in venetian vernacular means "snap up this!"

...not related with the movie...only a synapse short circuit...

saluti,

rinaldo.

-------

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:52 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Allen Ginsberg Questions

Comments: To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU

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Mongo BearWolf wrote:

>

> 5. On the last page, after mentioning his grandmother Rebecca,

> Ginsberg refers to someone named David. Do you know who he is or

> was?

>

i kind of thought that was refering to me! <grinning grandiosely>

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:36:07 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text

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Jeff Taylor wrote:

>

> I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in

> the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and

> the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of

> typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked

> only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a sickness",

> so they may be more changes later in the text.)

>

> [listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]

>

> xxxvii/ix.3from bttm   delaudid --> dilaudid

> xlii/xiv.3from bttm    a vast hive --> vast hives

> xlv/xvii.1             Heiderberg --> Heisenberg

> xlvi/xviii.9fr btm     Occam --> Ockham

> xlvi/xviii.7fr btm     Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus

 

just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?

 

ksenija

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:27:08 +0000

Reply-To:     jhasbro@tezcat.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Hasbrouck <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text

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Ksenija Simic wrote:

>

> Jeff Taylor wrote:

> >

> > I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in

> > the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and

> > the 1992 Evergreen edition. A couple seem to be simply corrections of

> > typos, but at least one was a more substantial change. (I have checked

> > only the introduction, "Desposition: testimony concerning a sickness",

> > so they may be more changes later in the text.)

> >

> > [listed by page #s of '66 ed./'92 ed, followed by line #]

> >

> > xxxvii/ix.3from bttm   delaudid --> dilaudid

> > xlii/xiv.3from bttm    a vast hive --> vast hives

> > xlv/xvii.1             Heiderberg --> Heisenberg

> > xlvi/xviii.9fr btm     Occam --> Ockham

> > xlvi/xviii.7fr btm     Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus

>

> just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?

>

> ksenija

 

My suspicion is that Jeff is among that endangered species: The Close

Reader.

 

-Hasbrouck

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:24:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      homosexuality vs same-sex sex

Content-Type: text/plain

 

An observation:

 

It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex

experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either

homosexual or bisexual.  However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience, he

"must" either be gay or at least bisexual.  (again, this is a generalization)

 

I wonder why?

 

Susan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:42:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject:      Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex

In-Reply-To:  <199801222124.QAA19328@pilot008.cl.msu.edu>

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I think it has to do with all that macho boys-don't-cry bullshit that men

and boys have had shoved down their throats since the beginning of time.

We women are supposed to be "weak," and if we make a little digression

here and there, no big deal, right? But men are supposed to be "strong"

and not give in to such "weaknesses."

Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........

 

                         Sara Feustle

                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

                      Cronopio, cronopio?

 

 

On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Susan L Dean wrote:

 

> An observation:

>

> It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex

> experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either

> homosexual or bisexual.  However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience,

 he

> "must" either be gay or at least bisexual.  (again, this is a generalization)

>

> I wonder why?

>

> Susan

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:54:10 -0700

Reply-To:     bluetorn@nanaimo.ark.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherryl <bluetorn@NANAIMO.ARK.COM>

Organization: Summer-Off

Subject:      hello to all you toads.

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are you tokin toads down there?  I just finished writing a short

story about tokin toads in the outback-we were lookin up in on the

net about smoking toads and read your poem about all dem toads.

Sorry about your friend but I think he is in good company.

from a toad fan on Gabriola Is. BC. Canada- Lynette and Sherryl

from the West Coast  ...Bushlands. Happy tokin.We Canadians toke

the best here on Gabriola Is. We will toke up in memory of W.S.

Burroughs and he will know he is in good company.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:11:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: the knifes of mrs adele mailer

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At 07:41 PM 1/22/98 +0100, Rinaldo wrote:

>Adele Mailer in _The Last Party_ it seems that

>stated she was the lover of the Beat Generation

>and Jack Kerouac made love as writing a stream

>of consciousness quickly careless the partner.

>Very sad self-control...

>Adele Mailer was the 2th wife to Norman Mailer

>she wrote a memories book.

 

For those interested in reading the Kerouac

content of this book check out the NY Times website

and there are a few chapters available to read:

 

_The Last Party: Scenes from My Life with Norman Mailer_

By ADELE MAILER

 

Do a search with the above at the NY Times website

(www.nytimes.com).  Or, if you are subscribed to the

times website already go to:

 

http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+site+25904+0+

wAAA+jack%7Ekerouac%2Fadele%7Emailer

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:12:08 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex

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In a message dated 22-Jan-98 1:26:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,

deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:

 

<< It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex

 experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either

 homosexual or bisexual.  However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience,

>>

 

Not beat. So generalistic as to have been pulled out of thin air. Divisive

gender-bashing will soon ensue. And, it's rather boring.

 

So shoot me.

 

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:43:36 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>

Subject:      Re: movies

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Bill Gargan wrote:

 

> I saw a film on witchcraft that WSB narrated

> about 20 years ago.  I think it was called "Haxan" or something like

that.  If

> anyone has details:  director, correct title, etc.  please post.

 

The title is correct, also known by the alternate title "Witchcraft Through

The Ages."  It was a silent movie produced in Scandinavia by someone named

Christiansen, I believe in the late 1910's or early 1920's.  Banned in many

countries for explicit (for then) depiction of demons, witches, etc.  The

WSB narration was added in the 1960's.  Wish I had more details, but maybe

someone else can take it from here...

 

Jym

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:36:53 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sorted <junky@NETCONCEPTS.COM>

Subject:      Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980122164034.113806D-100000@uoft02.utoledo.edu>

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i can boil this down to a very basic, if not somehwhat offensive, sentence.

 

if it walks, talks, and is attractive to me: i'll hump it.

 

it's that shaggy k9 in me.

 

am i gay, bi, or straight? i suppose it depends on the color of my outfit

and how low i dip my swagger.

 

yeh. next topic.

 

 

>I think it has to do with all that macho boys-don't-cry bullshit that men

>and boys have had shoved down their throats since the beginning of time.

>We women are supposed to be "weak," and if we make a little digression

>here and there, no big deal, right? But men are supposed to be "strong"

>and not give in to such "weaknesses."

>Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..........

>

>                         Sara Feustle

>                    sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu

>                      Cronopio, cronopio?

>

>

>On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Susan L Dean wrote:

>

>> An observation:

>>

>> It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex

>> experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either

>> homosexual or bisexual.  However, if a man has a same sex sexual experience,

> he

>> "must" either be gay or at least bisexual.  (again, this is a

>>generalization)

>>

>> I wonder why?

>>

>> Susan

>>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:35:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

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>

> Dennis wrote:

>

> <<It seems that Allen understood love on a level beyond that of the

> >  ordinary man.

> I think you're overstating this, Eric. >>

>

i think you are wrong,  i have met many people and many writers and

allen stood out with a real shine on how he cared and nurtured. he and

another man who noone knew (jamie grow) sticks in my mind for their

unique capacity to express love on incredible levels.  unless you have

something to base that these were just ordinary men i think it is hob

wash .  william was a caring person but the stars in his crown for me

was his mother fucking incredible intellect and wicked sense of humor.

allen was a lot more than a man capable of unique levels of love but to

judge him ordinary in that arena is to misjudge/.

patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:40:09 -0500

Reply-To:     deansusa@pilot.msu.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Susan Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      private to maggie

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(I apologize for cluttering everyone else's mailbox, but I did not have

an address for a private reply.)

 

Maggie-

 

I agree that the message in itself was not very beat, however it was

related to a thread that has been going on for awhile.  (which makes it

at least slightly more beat than  lot of recent postings)  However, I

also think that your response wasn't beat either, and probably should

have been a private message.

 

As I stated, my comment was a generalization.  I didn't "pull it out of

thin air" though.  It was a general summary of some studies we

researched in a human sexuality course I took.

 

I would hope that men and women could discuss gender/sexuality issues

such as this without turning the discussion into a war of the sexes.

(though I fully agree that the discussion should not take place here)

 

If you have any further comments, you can e-mail me privately at

deansusa@pilot.msu.edu

 

Susan

 

the above message was not meant to be interpreted as rude.  sometimes

its hard to get your point across in an e-mail without sounding

impolite.  for that same reason, even though the tone of your post

appeared pretty rude to me, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and

assume that was not the intent.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:51:55 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex

In-Reply-To:  <199801222124.QAA19328@pilot008.cl.msu.edu>

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At 04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:

>An observation:

>

>It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same sex

>experiences between women without assuming that those involved are either

>homosexual or bisexual.  However, if a man has a same sex sexual

experience, he

>"must" either be gay or at least bisexual.  (again, this is a generalization)

>

>I wonder why?

>

>Susan

>

>

The reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a woman-dominated

society.  The Society cares what males do with their semen.  They want round

blocks in round holes.  Women care lots about their own eggs, but Society

could care less until it starts to turn into a child.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:05:17 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      narcotics and the CIA

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updates at <http://speech.csun.edu/ben/news/cia/index.html> by ben

attias.  according to these report that anti-beat-institution the

Central Intelligence Agency is up to dirty tricks and treats on the

homefront.  Whether you believe it or not, i think my friend Ben does a

marvelous job of collating the information.  the new material most

notably is some Real Audio materials (unfortunately i have no sound card

yet).

 

gypsy davey

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:07:38 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew Shelton <matthew_shelton@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      Beat Spirit

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Recently while looking through my local bookstore I found a book

titled Beat Spirit by Mel Ash.  This book has activities designed to

teach the Beat way of life.  I was wondering if anyone had read this

book and if they had any opinions about it, positive or negative.

 

==

-----------------------------------------------------

Matthew Shelton

matthew_shelton@mail.okbu.edu

-----------------------------------------------------

 

 

_________________________________________________________

DO YOU YAHOO!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:37:06 -0800

Reply-To:     eatcarpaccio@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Anthony <eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>

Organization: Cad Corporation

Subject:      Beat Generation Project

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Beat-lers,

 

     My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain View California.  I am 16

and I go to Mountain View High School.  I've been reading a lot of the

stuf on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of

today think of the beats.  Myself and three classmates of mine are doing

an in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on

America.  The classes that are involved are two separate but linked

classes (the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and

American Lieterature Honors.  Our English teacher has been doing the

project for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,

researches it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class

in their final 45 minute presentation.

     The current state of our research is that we have read a lot of the

beat material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,

anthologies like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with

Naked Lunch and Junky next on the list.  We have listened to the CD

collection "The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an

excursion up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit

Kicks and BigTable.  We also plan to interview Lawrence Ferlinghetti

within the next few weeks.

     Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:

 

     The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in

America.  They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and

practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive

society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and

expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals

(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of

conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism.  The beats sparked a

much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more

individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and

later the hippies in the 60's.  And finally, the beats invaluably

contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,

spontaneous style.

 

     We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about

these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you

might have.

 

Thanks for reading my long message!

 

--

 

Anthony

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:57:49 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Zyprexa blues #235

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i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard

Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest

comedy.  i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he

ain't got none.  he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn

just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy

of America in search of Itself.  He passes on water.  We talk about the

old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed

coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places

like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke

a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.  we get in a white car and

drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled

up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn.  Where can

we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not

murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an

all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks

me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and

if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that

they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide

the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking

face.  what THIS TIME i say.  He LAUGHS a Neal laugh.  I laugh back and

we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top.  A quiet night on

the spot where you can see seven water towers.  I asked him about the

Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i

says.  And Neal just LAUGHS.  Some folks are pretty pissed off that it

wasn't really you in the movie.  He says he auditioned but didn't make

it past the first cut.  Suddenly I'm serious.  Neal, if you had it all

to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life.  He

smiles and says Sure.  No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile.  Now i'm

alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking

another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon

for Denver.  Nothing big - just a tear.  I'll miss this spot with the

souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old

country before 1956.  I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the

sound of Silence" on the radio.  my parking place is waiting for me and

i have coffee at my kitchen gallery.  i head to the bathroom and take my

nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol.  i sit down at the keyboard.  i

type......

 

January 22nd, 1998

david b. rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:07:12 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex

Content-Type: text/plain

 

mike said:

 

>At 04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:

>>An observation:

>>

>>It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same

sex

>>experiences between women without assuming that those involved are

either

>>homosexual or bisexual.  However, if a man has a same sex sexual

>experience, he

>>"must" either be gay or at least bisexual.  (again, this is a

generalization)

>>

>>I wonder why?

>>

>>Susan

>>

>>

>The reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a

woman-dominated

>society.  The Society cares what males do with their semen.  They want

round

>blocks in round holes.  Women care lots about their own eggs, but

Society

>could care less until it starts to turn into a child.

>

>Mike Rice

>

good answer. also, men tend to get off on girl-girl sex, but the women

i've talked to are either indifferent to -or disgusted by- men doing it

with other men. -this could explain alot as well.

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:33:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

In-Reply-To:  <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

(apologies to anthony, i didn't check my headers the first time)

good evening,

i believe jack keroauc said one time in an interview, "I'm not against

anything. I don't have time for that kind of negativity." If U.S. customs

hadn't made such a big deal about Howl, then what would of happened to the

beats? maybe kerouac would have never been able to find a publisher for On

The ROad, since ginsberg wouldn't be able to reccomend him to a big

publisher...

maybe someone else has something more thoughtful to say about that above,

but  what i mean is they were not using their philosphy or anything to

steer america away in any direction. maybe to just stop for a second and

question the world america was in. for example ginsberd wrote howl to tell

people what his generation was going through. all the shit the Best Minds

of His Generation went through simply because their point of view was

different than the norm. and not once (please correct me if i am wrong on

this) did ginsberg ever write in howl, something to the effect of "come on

and lets go take some smack!!!" you have a pretty good start on your

thesis, and take this into consideration if you would like. your final

sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their

creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to

concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their

beliefs and such.

 

At 08:37 PM 1/22/98 -0800, you wrote:

>     Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:

>

>     The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in

>America.  They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and

>practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive

>society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and

>expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals

>(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of

>conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism.  The beats sparked a

>much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more

>individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and

>later the hippies in the 60's.  And finally, the beats invaluably

>contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,

>spontaneous style.

>

>     We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about

>these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you

>might have.

>

>Thanks for reading my long message!

>

>--

>

>Anthony

>

>

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:35:35 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         SPElias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: homosexuality vs same-sex sex

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 98-01-23 00:18:58 EST, you write:

 

<< mike said:

 

 >At 04:24 PM 1/22/98 -0500, you wrote:

 >>An observation:

 >>

 >>It seems to me that society in general is more willing to accept same

 sex

 >>experiences between women without assuming that those involved are

 either

 >>homosexual or bisexual.  However, if a man has a same sex sexual

 >experience, he

 >>"must" either be gay or at least bisexual.  (again, this is a

 generalization)

 >>

 >>I wonder why?

 >>

 >>Susan

 >>

 >>

 >The reason is simple, its a male-dominated society, not a

 woman-dominated

 >society.  The Society cares what males do with their semen.  They want

 round

 >blocks in round holes.  Women care lots about their own eggs, but

 Society

 >could care less until it starts to turn into a child.

 >

 >Mike Rice

 >

 good answer. also, men tend to get off on girl-girl sex, but the women

 i've talked to are either indifferent to -or disgusted by- men doing it

 with other men. -this could explain alot as well.

  >>

 

 

The "male dominated society" thing is an easy, "knee jerk" response and

doesn't hold up....

 

George Clinton sez, "Free your mind, and your ass will follow."

 

SciAms say, "Free your ass, and your mind will follow."

 

A "friend" sez, "Make friends with your sphincter."

 

Go figure.

 

                 beaner

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:48:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: Zyprexa blues #235

In-Reply-To:  <34C8234D.218E@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

beautiful damn good "spontainous bop prosody".

At 10:57 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:

>i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard

>Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest

>comedy.  i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he

>ain't got none.  he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn

>just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy

>of America in search of Itself.  He passes on water.  We talk about the

>old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed

>coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places

>like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke

>a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.  we get in a white car and

>drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled

>up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn.  Where can

>we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not

>murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an

>all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks

>me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and

>if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that

>they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide

>the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking

>face.  what THIS TIME i say.  He LAUGHS a Neal laugh.  I laugh back and

>we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top.  A quiet night on

>the spot where you can see seven water towers.  I asked him about the

>Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i

>says.  And Neal just LAUGHS.  Some folks are pretty pissed off that it

>wasn't really you in the movie.  He says he auditioned but didn't make

>it past the first cut.  Suddenly I'm serious.  Neal, if you had it all

>to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life.  He

>smiles and says Sure.  No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile.  Now i'm

>alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking

>another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon

>for Denver.  Nothing big - just a tear.  I'll miss this spot with the

>souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old

>country before 1956.  I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the

>sound of Silence" on the radio.  my parking place is waiting for me and

>i have coffee at my kitchen gallery.  i head to the bathroom and take my

>nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol.  i sit down at the keyboard.  i

>type......

>

>January 22nd, 1998

>david b. rhaesa

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:48:03 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

randy royal wrote:

>  your final

> sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their

> creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to

> concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their

> beliefs and such.

>

i think that would be a horrible thesis.  it would merely be a

justification that the project is topical within the parameters of the

course.  at most it should be a paragraph.

 

my hubristic opinion,

gypsy davey

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:28:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

In-Reply-To:  <34C82F13.7F94@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

well let's have a look at this: the big three (wsb, kerouac and ginsberg)

were friends first off because they shared views right? but all three had a

knack for writing (i read somewhere wsb was for a very brief period of time

back in jk's columbia days and around when Carr murdered that guy) so they

experimented around a little bit and effectively made their own style of

literature. i heard ginsberg first wrote in classical poetry form, but

became fustrated withit and was influenced by his kerouac and burroughs to

take up free verse.

 

david- i don't really know. it seems like which came first? the chicken or

the egg? all right now, anthony- if i were you even it out with both

history and the spontainous literature.

then again, is your audience more lit or history minded? just accomadate to

whichever they are in either case.

have a good evening all,

randy

At 11:48 PM 1/22/98 -0600, you wrote:

>randy royal wrote:

>>  your final

>> sentence sums up very well that which you make seem as a by-product- their

>> creation of a new genre in literature. Perhaps you should try to

>> concentrate on that instead of just their beliefs and the impact of their

>> beliefs and such.

>>

>i think that would be a horrible thesis.  it would merely be a

>justification that the project is topical within the parameters of the

>course.  at most it should be a paragraph.

>

>my hubristic opinion,

>gypsy davey

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:34:02 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 98-01-23 01:27:32 EST, you write:

 

> the big three (wsb, kerouac and ginsberg)

>  were friends first off because they shared views right? but all three had a

>  knack for writing (i read somewhere wsb was for a very brief period of time

>  back in jk's columbia days and around when Carr murdered that guy) so they

>  experimented around a little bit and effectively made their own style of

>  literature.

 

well, .. i've always had a problem on this front.  to me, Ginsberg, Kerouac,

and Burroughs were three extremely different people who happened to be

extremely close with eachother, thus conveniencing the popular press with a

reason to bind them together as the holy trinity of a movement.  but, ... a

such a large part of this is overly idealized! this irks me so! Anthony-- i

too am 16 and just wrote a "critical analysis" of On the Road. this was a big

dilemma for me, because i've been reading Kerouac since 8th grade and felt

that it was my obligation (to god knows what) to write about On the Road for

my semester paper (we had to choose from a list of books-- fiction and non-

fiction-- pertaining to the 2nd half the century), yet at the same time, i

felt i could have gotten alot more out of the assignment if i'd done something

i didnt know as much about.  anyhow, i mean, when you assess beat literature,

you will see that Ginsberg's, Kerouac's and Burrough's intentions as writers,

tho stemming from the same discontent, were very different.  their feelings

for humanity were drastically different.  Kerouac showed little care for the

social well-being of the nation, or any nation for that matter.  Ginsberg was

one of the most loving souls i have ever had the honor of coming into contact

with. A tremendous presence in this city, spiritually, politically, and

humanistically.  Burroughs, well, god, what was he all about when it really

came down to it? i never felt much affinity for him, i have to admit. (will i

be kicked off the list?....)

                                     buone cose a tutti,

                                          ---Ginny Browne.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:32:09 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

Comments: To: eatcarpaccio@geocities.com

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Thanks for letting us know about this good news from Mountain View High!

This is particularly exciting when you consider that Mountain View was a

mormom stronghold in the early sixties (still is?)  when the first private

psychiatric hospital (El Camino Hospital) facilitiy was opened in the bay

area to serve primarily Lockheed executives who received unheard of 100%

psychiatric coverage.

 

I am curious about

1. Is the project popular with the students? ( I bet)

2. Names of the teachers?

3. What is the CAD Corporation and how is it related to you?

 

Have fun in your project

 

leon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Anthony <eatcarpaccio@geocities.com>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 8:49 PM

Subject: Beat Generation Project

 

 

>Beat-lers,

>

>     My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain View California.  I am 16

>and I go to Mountain View High School.  I've been reading a lot of the

>stuf on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of

>today think of the beats.  Myself and three classmates of mine are doing

>an in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on

>America.  The classes that are involved are two separate but linked

>classes (the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and

>American Lieterature Honors.  Our English teacher has been doing the

>project for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,

>researches it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class

>in their final 45 minute presentation.

>     The current state of our research is that we have read a lot of the

>beat material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,

>anthologies like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with

>Naked Lunch and Junky next on the list.  We have listened to the CD

>collection "The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an

>excursion up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit

>Kicks and BigTable.  We also plan to interview Lawrence Ferlinghetti

>within the next few weeks.

>     Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:

>

>     The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in

>America.  They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and

>practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive

>society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and

>expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals

>(e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of

>conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism.  The beats sparked a

>much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more

>individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and

>later the hippies in the 60's.  And finally, the beats invaluably

>contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,

>spontaneous style.

>

>     We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about

>these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you

>might have.

>

>Thanks for reading my long message!

>

>--

>

>Anthony

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:43:21 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Zyprexa blues #235

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Let me guess David - A new Beat-L column? An 007 movie? No, not the end,

please.

 

leon?

 

-----Original Message-----

From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:33 PM

Subject: Zyprexa blues #235

 

 

>i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard

>Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest

>comedy.  i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he

>ain't got none.  he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn

>just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy

>of America in search of Itself.  He passes on water.  We talk about the

>old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed

>coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places

>like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke

>a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.  we get in a white car and

>drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled

>up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn.  Where can

>we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not

>murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an

>all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks

>me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and

>if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that

>they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide

>the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking

>face.  what THIS TIME i say.  He LAUGHS a Neal laugh.  I laugh back and

>we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top.  A quiet night on

>the spot where you can see seven water towers.  I asked him about the

>Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i

>says.  And Neal just LAUGHS.  Some folks are pretty pissed off that it

>wasn't really you in the movie.  He says he auditioned but didn't make

>it past the first cut.  Suddenly I'm serious.  Neal, if you had it all

>to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life.  He

>smiles and says Sure.  No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile.  Now i'm

>alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking

>another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon

>for Denver.  Nothing big - just a tear.  I'll miss this spot with the

>souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old

>country before 1956.  I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the

>sound of Silence" on the radio.  my parking place is waiting for me and

>i have coffee at my kitchen gallery.  i head to the bathroom and take my

>nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol.  i sit down at the keyboard.  i

>type......

>

>January 22nd, 1998

>david b. rhaesa

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:07:15 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text

In-Reply-To:  <34C81027.53F2@eunet.yu>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Ksenija Simic wrote:

 

> Jeff Taylor wrote:

> > I have recently discovered that there have been a few changes made in

> > the text of WSB's _Naked Lunch_ between the 1966 Black Cat edition and

> > the 1992 Evergreen edition.

> >

> > xxxvii/ix.3from bttm   delaudid --> dilaudid

> > xlii/xiv.3from bttm    a vast hive --> vast hives

> > xlv/xvii.1             Heiderberg --> Heisenberg

> > xlvi/xviii.9fr btm     Occam --> Ockham

> > xlvi/xviii.7fr btm     Phlilosophicus --> Philosophicus

>

> just out of curiosity: how did you manage to spot these changes?

 

I was reading an article by R.G. Peterson, "A Picture Is a Fact:

Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch" in which Peterson noted the name

"Heiderberg" and speculated that it was a combination of Heidegger and

Heisenberg. But when I went to look up the passage in my copy of NL,

it said "Heisenberg". So I dug out my older edition of NL, and sure

enough, there it was "Heiderberg". So where there's one change,

there's likely to be more.

 

The really surprising change was when the phrase "....my own special

symptom, The Cold Burn, like a vast hive covering the body...." was

altered to "like vast hives". Surely it was correct the first way.

 

Peterson also cited the following phrase: "'Ludwig Wittenstein [sic]

Tractatus Logico-Phlilosophicus [sic]'". Now in the '66 edition, the

spelling of LW's name was correct, although the second error remained.

So since Peterson was using the '62 edition, it seems likely that

changes and corrections were made also between the '62 and '66

editions, as well as the ones I found between '66 and '92.

 

I also recently read "The Central Verbal System: The Prose of William

Burroughs" by Michael Skau (who is on this list, I believe), in which

he states, in the course of giving an account of WSB's various methods

for combating verbal control, that "Burroughs also refuses to correct

typographical errors in his prose....These errata comprise further

assaults on verbal control." But this claim may have to be revised,

depending on who is responsible for the changes in NL.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:48:16 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

In-Reply-To:  <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Anthony wrote:

 

>      Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:

>

>      The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in

> America.  They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and

> practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive

> society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and

> expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals

> (e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of

> conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism.  The beats sparked a

> much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more

> individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and

> later the hippies in the 60's.

 

If you haven't already looked at it, a good article is

Jonathan Paul Eburne, "Trafficking in the Void: Burroughs, Kerouac,

and the Consumption of Otherness". Modern Fiction Studies 43:1 (Spring

1997) 53-92.

 

Eburne analyzes both WSB's Naked Lunch and JK's Subterraneans against

the background of the rhetoric of J. Edgar Hoover and the general

politicization of personal identity during the '50s. All in all, one

of the best academic articles on the Beats that I've seen.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:26:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

Comments: To: Anthony <eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <34C81E6C.478FB23E@geocities.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Anthony-

I did a similiar project for a similar class when I was a junior, also. In

my paper, I also talked about religion and the Beats and a good book for

that is "Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation". I forget who

wrote it but it was a good resource. Also, check out the Beat Reader. It

has a ton of info on lots of different Beat artists. Good luck with your

project.

 On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Anthony wrote:

 

> Beat-lers,

>

>      My name is Anthony and I'm from Mountain View California.  I am 16

> and I go to Mountain View High School.  I've been reading a lot of the

> stuf on Beat-L for about a month now to get an idea of what people of

> today think of the beats.  Myself and three classmates of mine are doing

> an in-depth, year long research project on the beats and their effect on

> America.  The classes that are involved are two separate but linked

> classes (the teachers work closely together): U.S. History A.P. and

> American Lieterature Honors.  Our English teacher has been doing the

> project for 20 years and the idea is that each group picks a topic,

> researches it, and comes up with a unique thesis to present to the class

> in their final 45 minute presentation.

>      The current state of our research is that we have read a lot of the

> beat material: OTR, Dharma Bums, Ginsberg poetry, Snyder Poetry,

> anthologies like Birth of the Beat Generation by Stephen Watson, with

> Naked Lunch and Junky next on the list.  We have listened to the CD

> collection "The Beat Generation," seen the movie Naked Lunch, taken an

> excursion up to City Lights, and read a lot of stuff on the net like Lit

> Kicks and BigTable.  We also plan to interview Lawrence Ferlinghetti

> within the next few weeks.

>      Our current thesis basically propounds the following ideas:

>

>      The beats were important fighters for individual freedom in

> America.  They used their non-conformist beliefs, attitudes, and

> practices to help steer America away from an increasingly oppressive

> society. American society began to stifles individual freedom and

> expression through government control and overly-conservative ideals

> (e.g. censorship, McCarthyism, etc.) as well as the championing of

> conformist ideals like materialism and nationalism.  The beats sparked a

> much-needed shift in thinking that later led to the emergence of more

> individual freedom in America evident in the emergence of "beatniks" and

> later the hippies in the 60's.  And finally, the beats invaluably

> contributed to American literature with their new, innovative,

> spontaneous style.

>

>      We would love any feedback from all of you who know so much about

> these guys, and I'd be happy to respond to any questions or comments you

> might have.

>

> Thanks for reading my long message!

>

> --

>

> Anthony

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:27:57 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:33:50 -0500 from

              <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

 

OTR was already in the works by the time Howl was censored.   Kerouac's

book probably still would have done very well when it was published

becasue of Millstien's review in the New York Times.   Ginsberg's

activism in anti-war and gay rights causes also helped to promote a Beat

movement.  Nevertheless, the obscenity trial certainly got the beats a

lot of media attention and helped attract new readers.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:47:02 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Zyprexa blues #235

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Leon Tabory wrote:

>

> Let me guess David - A new Beat-L column?

 

 

not a bad idea.  remind me to do something once a week or so.

 

An 007 movie?

 

Bond, gypsy davey Bond!

 

No, not the end,

> please.

 

Zyprexa is my new medicine.  I think it's pretty good stuff.

 

HOW HAVE YOU BEEN?

 

gypsy davey

>

> leon?

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 9:33 PM

> Subject: Zyprexa blues #235

>

> >i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard

> >Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest

> >comedy.  i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he

> >ain't got none.  he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn

> >just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy

> >of America in search of Itself.  He passes on water.  We talk about the

> >old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed

> >coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places

> >like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke

> >a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.  we get in a white car and

> >drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled

> >up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn.  Where can

> >we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not

> >murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an

> >all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks

> >me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and

> >if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that

> >they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide

> >the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking

> >face.  what THIS TIME i say.  He LAUGHS a Neal laugh.  I laugh back and

> >we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top.  A quiet night on

> >the spot where you can see seven water towers.  I asked him about the

> >Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i

> >says.  And Neal just LAUGHS.  Some folks are pretty pissed off that it

> >wasn't really you in the movie.  He says he auditioned but didn't make

> >it past the first cut.  Suddenly I'm serious.  Neal, if you had it all

> >to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life.  He

> >smiles and says Sure.  No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile.  Now i'm

> >alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking

> >another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon

> >for Denver.  Nothing big - just a tear.  I'll miss this spot with the

> >souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old

> >country before 1956.  I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the

> >sound of Silence" on the radio.  my parking place is waiting for me and

> >i have coffee at my kitchen gallery.  i head to the bathroom and take my

> >nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol.  i sit down at the keyboard.  i

> >type......

> >

> >January 22nd, 1998

> >david b. rhaesa

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:53:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jeff Taylor wrote:

>

> I was reading an article by R.G. Peterson, "A Picture Is a Fact:

> Wittgenstein and Naked Lunch" in which Peterson noted the name

> "Heiderberg" and speculated that it was a combination of Heidegger and

> Heisenberg. But when I went to look up the passage in my copy of NL,

> it said "Heisenberg". So I dug out my older edition of NL, and sure

> enough, there it was "Heiderberg". So where there's one change,

> there's likely to be more.

 

also Heidelberg probably is spliced into the Heiderberg somehow.  I was

thinking that a synthesis of Heisenberg and Heidegger would be

interesting.  I would suggest splicing Question Concerning Technology

and other essays with Heisenberg's collection in the World Perspectives

series.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:21:34 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Zyprexa blues #235

Content-Type: text/plain

 

nice, very nice.

 

-greg

 

 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

* Ginsberg etc.                         *

* http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry *

* Dozens of poems, pictures, info       *

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:20:35 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>

Subject:      DELETE MY PREV. MESSAGE (UNLESS YOU'RE ANTHONY)

Content-Type: text/plain

 

Sorry listers.... that previous message should have gone to anthony and

only anthony.

 

-Greg

 

______________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:09:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>

Subject:      bad liver kerouac connection?

Comments: To: Discussion of Tom Waits <RAINDOGS@LISTSERV.HEA.IE>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>On http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatsInRock.html it says that

>'Waits also sings of Kerouac in a song called "Bad Liver and a Broken

>Heart (in Lowell)."'

>

>Is this true? I don't see any Kerouac reference in there, but I haven't

>actually read anything by Kerouac yet. I've tried reading On the Road

>three or four times. I never get any further than, say, fifty pages...

>

>This bothers me, somehow.

 

        i find that reading him aloud, or at least mouthing the words, is

very helpful.  i'm reading _desolation angels_ these days when i have time.

this one is about the time he spent as a fire lookout on a mountain called

desolation peak.  it has a killing time kind of feel to it; but the

language is still very fluid and full of energy.

 

                i've never heard about 'bad liver and a broken heart' being

about jack.  the "in lowell" subtitle makes sense since that's were he was

born.  i don't know who "kath" is supposed to refer to.  later in his life,

kerouac returned to lowell and married a friend from childhood, stella

sampas.

 

                        i've always identified with this song.  the title

relates to two of my perpetual problems.  i love that "sharp as a razor and

soft as a prayer" line.

 

KEN

 

 

Bad Liver and a Broken Heart (in Lowell)

 

Well I got a bad liver and a broken heart,

Yeah, I drunk me a river since you tore me apart

And I don't have a drinking problem, 'cept when I can't get a drink

And I wish you'd a-known her, we were quite a pair,

She was sharp as a razor and soft as a prayer

So welcome to the continuing saga,

She was my better half, and I was just a dog

And so here am I slumped, I've been chipped and I've been chumped on my stool

So buy this fool some spirits and libations, it's these railroad station bars

And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters

And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,

He's a lawyer, he ain't the one for ya

No, the moon ain't romantic, it's intimidating as hell,

And some guy's trying to sell me a watch

And so I'll meet you at the bottom of a bottle of bargain Scotch

I got me a bottle and a dream, it's so maudlin it seems,

You can name your poison, go on ahead and make some noise

I ain't sentimental, this ain't a purchase, it's a rental, and it's purgatory,

And hey, what's your story, well I don't even care

'Cause I got my own double-cross to bear

 

And I'll see your Red Label, and I'll raise you one more,

And you can pour me a cab, I just can't drink no more,

'Cause it don't douse the flames that are started by dames,

It ain't like asbestos

It don't do nothing but rest us assured,

And substantiate the rumors that you've heard.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:34:44 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Susan L Dean <deansusa@PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: bad liver kerouac connection?

In-Reply-To:  <v02140b01b0ee88c8e2ce@[18.170.1.147]> from "Ken Ostrander" at

              Jan 23, 98 01:09:26 pm

Content-Type: text/plain

 

> about jack.  the "in lowell" subtitle makes sense since that's were he was

> born.  i don't know who "kath" is supposed to refer to.  later in his life,

> kerouac returned to lowell and married a friend from childhood, stella

> sampas.

> And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters

> And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,

 

 

Maybe he just used the name Kath because not much rhymes with Stella???

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:06:36 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      winter queue (once popeye said W=W S=S)

In-Reply-To:  <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

David Bruce Rhaesa says:

>also Heidelberg probably is spliced into the Heiderberg somehow.  I was

>thinking that a synthesis of Heisenberg and Heidegger would be

>interesting.  I would suggest splicing Question Concerning Technology

>and other essays with Heisenberg's collection in the World Perspectives

>series.

>

>dbr

>

                                amico mio

IWasStonedManyYearsAgo&TodayICannotRecognizedAnyDifference

AmongWITTGENSTEINandWELTANSHAAUNGisTheCatYouMetCalledSchopenhauer

OrSchrodingerOrTheMutantEngineLikeSpencerTracyOrTheAnarchistSpencer

ISawMyShadowABitLargeTodayWaitingForTheBusAndAllBusesGoToVeniceAndTheSun

EnlargeMyShadowTheSunEnlargedMyShadowIWasIntriguedByTheShadowTheNiteFallIn

 

several time i'm thinking WHO was the

real person who wrote "On The Road", t          after the delegue

hey told me Jack Kerouac. several time          hippies&doomin69

i was thinking if Allen Ginsberg is a           fonda&hoppershoted

character in "The Town and the City" 1

950 (wrote 1946/49) the same years on the road. jack kerouac was

published in 1950 howl was published in 1956.

 

                The Self built with myriad thoughts

                        from football to I Am That I Am

                                                ---allen ginsberg

                                                (Auto Poetry)

who for Christ's sake

wrote those beat lit

and why censored?                               those flags

                                                in the wind

                                                rent car pl

                                                ace queue b

                                                uses the su

                                                n fall down

                                                western blu

                                                e cable opt

                                                ical though

                                                ts sunset

the great conspirancy

get out of this plane

t

 

OhIKickThisCrashBarrierIveLostTheBus...!!!

 

saluti a tutti voi da

rinaldo quello che ha perso l'ultimo bus a adesso non sa piu'

cosa fare se non prendere a calci il guardrail, woohh!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:22:58 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: bad liver kerouac connection?

In-Reply-To:  <v02140b01b0ee88c8e2ce@[18.170.1.147]> from "Ken Ostrander" at

              Jan 23, 98 01:09:26 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> >On http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatsInRock.html it says that

> >'Waits also sings of Kerouac in a song called "Bad Liver and a Broken

> >Heart (in Lowell)."'

> >

> >Is this true? I don't see any Kerouac reference in there, but I haven't

> >actually read anything by Kerouac yet. I've tried reading On the Road

> >three or four times. I never get any further than, say, fifty pages...

 

Well, I don't know if this is true or not, but I guess I always

imagined the guy speaking in the song is supposed to be Kerouac,

or some reflection of him.

 

I just think this because of the title.  Lowell signifies Jack -- it

can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown.  Also,

I bet Jack did not have a great liver.

 

> Bad Liver and a Broken Heart (in Lowell)

>

> Well I got a bad liver and a broken heart,

> Yeah, I drunk me a river since you tore me apart

> And I don't have a drinking problem, 'cept when I can't get a drink

> And I wish you'd a-known her, we were quite a pair,

> She was sharp as a razor and soft as a prayer

> So welcome to the continuing saga,

> She was my better half, and I was just a dog

> And so here am I slumped, I've been chipped and I've been chumped on my stool

> So buy this fool some spirits and libations, it's these railroad station bars

> And all these conductors and the porters, and I'm all out of quarters

> And this epitaph is the aftermath, yeah I choose my path, hey, come on, Kath,

> He's a lawyer, he ain't the one for ya

> No, the moon ain't romantic, it's intimidating as hell,

> And some guy's trying to sell me a watch

> And so I'll meet you at the bottom of a bottle of bargain Scotch

> I got me a bottle and a dream, it's so maudlin it seems,

> You can name your poison, go on ahead and make some noise

> I ain't sentimental, this ain't a purchase, it's a rental, and it's purgatory,

> And hey, what's your story, well I don't even care

> 'Cause I got my own double-cross to bear

>

> And I'll see your Red Label, and I'll raise you one more,

> And you can pour me a cab, I just can't drink no more,

> 'Cause it don't douse the flames that are started by dames,

> It ain't like asbestos

> It don't do nothing but rest us assured,

> And substantiate the rumors that you've heard.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                      |

|                                                       |

|     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/   |

|      (the beat literature web site)                   |

|                                                       |

|          "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"         |

|            (a real book, like on paper)               |

|               also at http://coffeehousebook.com      |

|                                                       |

|                   *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---*   |

|                                                       |

| "Nothing is capsulized in me, on either side of town" |

|                                      -- Joni Mitchell |

---------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:21:01 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 

Anthony--

  The book Nancy is referring to is edited by Carole Tonkinson, and

was published by Riverhead Books. It sounds like you're doing an

incredible project! I just finished a semester's worth of research on

Allen Ginsberg for my freshman Honors Comp. class, and I plan to flesh

it out a little more and seek publication.

  You'll be interviewing Ferlinghetti? Do e-mail me privately and let

me know how that goes, especially how you got in contact with him in

the first place, because I've thought about publishing my Ginsberg

anthology as an anthology about all the Beat poets.

  Good luck,

      Maggie

 

---Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU> wrote:

>

> Anthony-

> I did a similiar project for a similar class when I was a junior,

also. In

> my paper, I also talked about religion and the Beats and a good book

for

> that is "Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation". I forget who

> wrote it but it was a good resource. Also, check out the Beat

Reader. It

> has a ton of info on lots of different Beat artists. Good luck with

your

> project.

 

_________________________________________________________

DO YOU YAHOO!?

Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:45:53 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      pome(not mine/prolly nonbeat oh well

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans

cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon

soule

 i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up

to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)

the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.

 

scars

 

the scars upon my heart are growing sore

again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.

they bleed in riptide as the bled before

 

the silent shock that taught me to ignore

the suffering became my first affair;

the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

 

the seam in my protective armor tore

away, and that was all the scars could bear

they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

 

my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;

it will not heal like sores exposed to air.

the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

 

the open wounds these cicatrices wore

in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;

they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

 

the jail of my unloving has a door

which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.

the scars upon my heart are growing sore;

the bleed in riptide as they bled before.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:45:16 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 98-01-23 16:22:11 EST, you write:

 

> You'll be interviewing Ferlinghetti? Do e-mail me privately and let

>  me know how that goes,

 

yea, Anthony, perhaps you could post something to the whole list about your

Ferlinghetti interview, as i'm sure we'd all like to hear about it.

( am i wrong?)

--Ginny.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:21:39 -0800

Reply-To:     eatcarpaccio@geocities.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Anthony <eatcarpaccio@GEOCITIES.COM>

Organization: Cad Corporation

Subject:      Re: Beat Generation Project

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Thanks to all of you who responded.  I've read and considered all of

your input.

 

     Since all of you seem interested, I think that I should explain a

little more about the actual project.  This is not your typical

project.  Our teacher has done of the project for over 20 years and has

students do all sorts of amazing stuff.  The project is called DIVE.

That's not an acronym.  It means "Dive into the Deep" and everyone

refers to it as Dive or, Dive projects, (we're having a "dive meeting",

etc.)  The idea is to Dive into a topic in great detail and then teach

others what you have learned.  The project is NOT a paper.  At the end

of the half-year of research (ours will be in early May) we perform our

55 minute presentation that we will by then have scripted and prepared

for quite extensively.  We plan to make our project multimedia with

videos of various stuff (hopefully of our Ferlinghetti interview if he

allows us to tape), recordings of the beats reading, jazz and bop music,

we hope to make an extensive set in one of the larger classrooms or

maybe a conference room or auditorium, we may dress like some of the

guys and we will certainly read poetry and book excerpts.  We will also

possibly re-enact a shortened version of Six Gallery and we will

certainly have a lot of slides of beat pictures.  And as usual we are

open to suggestions.  During the presentation, I would estimate that the

audience will be about 75-100 people from our classes, past classes,

future classes, interested teachers and anyone else who wants to attend.

 

     To answer Leon's questions...

 

1. Is the project popular with the students? ( I bet)

 

Depends if you have a good group and topic.  I'd say about half do.  We

sure do!

 

2. Names of the teachers?

 

Probably not a good idea without their permission.

 

3. What is the CAD Corporation and how is it related to you?

 

Hehe.  This is not a real corporation.  I made it up.  It's a joke my

brother and I have.  Sorry to disappoint you!

 

We're currently working on an outline of our research and we will soon

be writing our script both of which I will post on Beat-L.  I will also

transcribe our interview with Ferlinghetti and post that.

     To answer another question, our audience will have experienced a

pretty detailed history of the United States at that point well past the

beats.  They will also be familiar with Whitman and other avant-guard

stuff, so we are lucky in that respect.

 

--Anthony

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:38:56 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andre Gauthier <agauthi@CCO.NET>

Subject:      Re: Vonnegut

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding:  7bit

 

This is really off the subject of Beats now, but I had to tell you that a movie

 is

in the works based on Breakfast of Champions -- starring Bruce Willis! Ugh.

 

 

Do you have any idea of when this is coming out?

 

Janelle

 

 

Free web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere!

http://www.mailcity.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:46:52 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Crossroads

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Robert Johnson's Crossroads

(A tribute to a Blues Man from the crossroads.)

 

Columbia 22

Went down to the Crossroads

Camden 25

Tried to flag a ride.

Sumter 22

Got hellhounds on my trail.

Orangeburg 25

Have my sweet rider by my side.

Crossroads

Jesus Saves

Turn to Jesus or Burn in Hell

Wilson.

Will son.

Will's son.

Will's son cross.

Will's son cross road.

Will's son cross roads.

Will's son cross roads Jesus.

Will's son cross roads Jesus saves.

Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Columbia.

(No he didn't Sherman burnt it!  That is why you can't trace title

beyond 1865.)

Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Camden.

(Well he might have, ask Cornwallis!)

Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Sumter.

(Depends, one wing in the Persian Gulf tonight.)

Will's son cross roads Jesus saves Orangeburg.

(Crack alleys, murder rate, unemployment, kids with guns, not likely.)

Will's son cross roads Jesus saves or Burn in Hell.

Me, I just want to get some gas and take a piss.

But, it is spooky here, at a crossroads that is exactly 22, 25, 22, 25.

Did Robert Johnson meet ole scratch here, or does Jesus Save?

Tried to flag a ride.

That's what the sign says.

No body seemed to know me.

But maybe that was back in Wilson.

House down by the riverside.

Will cross road son.

Break in on a dollar most any place she goes.

Will road cross son.

They all just passed me by.

Son will cross road.

Got tamales and they are red hot, yeah got em for sale.

Son cross Will Road.

Dead shirmps blues.

Son road cross Will.

Believe it's much too light.

Cross road son will.

She got a mortgage on my body.

Crossroads.

And a lien on my soul.

--

 

I was just thinking about the perfect crossroads I drove through on

Tuesday night on the way home.  And, I was listening to Jimi Hendrix (My

arrows are made of desire from far away as Jupiter's sulpher mines, way

down by the methane sea.  I have a hummingbird that will hum so loud,

that you will think you are losing your mind.) when this just evolved.

I hope you will find it amusing.  After all, I am not sure if it

pertains to Jack's percentage of homosexual acts vs heterosexual acts,

but Jung probably already discussed that.  Or at least, I think he meant

to.

 

BTW, most of the lines are either the best I can remember from Robert

Johnson, or they are in a sense cut ups as I went by a place called

Wilson and was trying to imagine a cut up with it just before I went

down to the crossroads.

 

Have a good weekend.

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:42:32 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Crossroads

MIME-Version: 1.0

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> BTW, most of the lines are either the best I can remember from Robert

> Johnson,

 

you did get a lot of that faustian Robert Johnson's lyrics right.

i REALLY REALLY liked this Bentz.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:06:10 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>

Subject:      Re: bad liver kerouac connection?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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>

> I just think this because of the title.  Lowell signifies Jack -- it

> can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown.  Also,

> I bet Jack did not have a great liver.

 

 i agree with you - he must have known, or he wouldn't be singing a song

called 'jack and neil'. right?

 

ksenija

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:06:15 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         L1wannabe <L1wannabe@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Kerouac and Homosexuality

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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thought you'd enjoy the poem

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 03:21:14 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         L1wannabe <L1wannabe@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Kerouac as poet

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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Please...dear Sir re-read your Kerouac.  This man developed an intense plot

line.  I hate to interrupt the list however I could not sit by idly whithout

responding.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:08:52 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: winter queue (once popeye said W=W S=S)

MIME-Version: 1.0

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rinnaldo: a fest for the eyes and a fest for the words. fest as in festival.

mc

 

>                                amico mio

> IWasStonedManyYearsAgo&TodayICannotRecognizedAnyDifference

> AmongWITTGENSTEINandWELTANSHAAUNGisTheCatYouMetCalledSchopenhauer

> OrSchrodingerOrTheMutantEngineLikeSpencerTracyOrTheAnarchistSpencer

> ISawMyShadowABitLargeTodayWaitingForTheBusAndAllBusesGoToVeniceAndTheSun

> EnlargeMyShadowTheSunEnlargedMyShadowIWasIntriguedByTheShadowTheNiteFallIn

>

> several time i'm thinking WHO was the

> real person who wrote "On The Road", t          after the delegue

> hey told me Jack Kerouac. several time          hippies&doomin69

> i was thinking if Allen Ginsberg is a           fonda&hoppershoted

> character in "The Town and the City" 1

> 950 (wrote 1946/49) the same years on the road. jack kerouac was

> published in 1950 howl was published in 1956.

>

>                 The Self built with myriad thoughts

>                         from football to I Am That I Am

>                                                 ---allen ginsberg

>                                                 (Auto Poetry)

> who for Christ's sake

> wrote those beat lit

> and why censored?                               those flags

>                                                 in the wind

>                                                 rent car pl

>                                                 ace queue b

>                                                 uses the su

>                                                 n fall down

>                                                 western blu

>                                                 e cable opt

>                                                 ical though

>                                                 ts sunset

> the great conspirancy

> get out of this plane

> t

>

> OhIKickThisCrashBarrierIveLostTheBus...!!!

>

> saluti a tutti voi da

> rinaldo quello che ha perso l'ultimo bus a adesso non sa piu'

> cosa fare se non prendere a calci il guardrail, woohh!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:14:34 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Zyprexa blues #235

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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david: this is just wonderful stream of consciousness and so detailed and

expressive. wonderful wonderful.

mc

 

David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:

 

> i slide into the Coffee Gallery smoothly - i'm sposed to meet Leonard

> Cohen there to chat about the ways of the world and Clinton's latest

> comedy.  i head to the bar and say i want coffee and the cat says he

> ain't got none.  he's closing early - AGAIN! - so i take water and turn

> just to see Leonard sitting down at the table where i'd tossed my copy

> of America in search of Itself.  He passes on water.  We talk about the

> old country and life in 1956 before the various pollutions that breed

> coffee galleries that close early and don't have any coffee and places

> like the Deadwood where water costs a quarter and we go outside to smoke

> a Bel-Air - can't smoke anywhere's anymore.  we get in a white car and

> drive around and about this town, not a city, with its sidewalks rolled

> up and its streetlights protecting it at nearly every turn.  Where can

> we go from here Leonard says...the future is bleak i say but not

> murderous you know....i was joking about that Leonard says....maybe an

> all-night truck stop and read some Jacky Kerouwacky i jest and he looks

> me square and smiles - if you see Jacky in the truck stop - kill him and

> if you see Gary Snyder on the trail kill him twice....and i agree that

> they can get in the way and i laugh and drop him on the corner and slide

> the car down santa fe and the hazy dreamy Neal Cassady shows his fucking

> face.  what THIS TIME i say.  He LAUGHS a Neal laugh.  I laugh back and

> we drive to Indian Rock winding the car to the top.  A quiet night on

> the spot where you can see seven water towers.  I asked him about the

> Last Time I committed suicide movie ... whaddayathink of that anyhow i

> says.  And Neal just LAUGHS.  Some folks are pretty pissed off that it

> wasn't really you in the movie.  He says he auditioned but didn't make

> it past the first cut.  Suddenly I'm serious.  Neal, if you had it all

> to do over again now would you do it again ... the whole life.  He

> smiles and says Sure.  No laughter - just a Neal Cassady smile.  Now i'm

> alone on the Rock and I stand looking over the sleepy town smoking

> another Bel-Air, a tear comes to my eye at this town i will leave soon

> for Denver.  Nothing big - just a tear.  I'll miss this spot with the

> souls of the Indians that came before the streetlights in the very old

> country before 1956.  I drive home quietly, Simon and Garfunkel "the

> sound of Silence" on the radio.  my parking place is waiting for me and

> i have coffee at my kitchen gallery.  i head to the bathroom and take my

> nightly dose of Zyprexa and Tegretol.  i sit down at the keyboard.  i

> type......

>

> January 22nd, 1998

> david b. rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:27:06 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      the california scrambled eggs time zone rag

MIME-Version: 1.0

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friends and others:

 

to all who are interested in hearing of my adventures, i am still

whacked out from the intensity and the momentum of the train. no

insomnia, thankfully, but not much poem or prose at the present time. so

instead,

 

> i thought i'd send my brakeman's bandana. or a banana why i am not a

> painter, oranges, the egg on the bridge and WCW's walk thereone.

> and questions of what comprises  'real poetry' in this unreal

> surreal life, the answer to which i cannot reply.

> mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:22:34 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: bad liver kerouac connection?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Ksenija Simic wrote:

>

> >

> > I just think this because of the title.  Lowell signifies Jack -- it

> > can't be that Tom Waits didn't know this was Jack's hometown.  Also,

> > I bet Jack did not have a great liver.

>

>  i agree with you - he must have known, or he wouldn't be singing a song

> called 'jack and neil'. right?

>

> ksenija

 

Tom Waits knew.  No question!

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:17:48 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Burroughs & Antonioni.

In-Reply-To:  <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Tonino Guerra (an italian screenwriter friend to Antonioni)

writes in his diary:

"In London, [was 1967?] in a private apartment i have seen Burroughs

along with young people smoking strange cigarettes.

I was about to accept a cigarette but Michelangelo Antonioni

has beaten on my hands and he waved me sign to decline."

 

amici,

there's any further info bout Burroughs Antonioni connection?

saluti,

Rinaldo.

--------

"Lo sai perche' e' l'eta' piu' bella?

Perche' non ce la ricordiamo"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:25:09 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Biblio

In-Reply-To:  <706e2e69.34c9ce3b@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 06:19 AM 1/24/98 EST, you wrote:

>Dear Bill,

>Yes, I agree with you, the piece seemed inappropriate in an issue devoted to

>notable deaths of 1997.  The New York Times is free to print whatever they

>want, of course and I didn't find the article inaccurate, just out of place.

>They consistently want to make some point about the Beats not being quite

>legitimate, I guess.  Seems strange to tell a story about something that

Allen

>was involved with as a young person and not even mention that he was a poet,

>cultural leader or political activist.  I guess they feel the most important

>thing about Ginsberg is that he allowed his friend Herbert Huncke to store

>stolen materials in his apartment when he was 20 years old.

>I don't think they're going to catch on to his importance for a few more

>years.

>Yours,

>Bill Morgan

>

>

You know all of those articles in that issue of the magazine, were off the

Beam slightly.  They wanted to print something besides the same old rehashed

dreck.  Every article in that issue had an odd slant.  The Times is the same

operation that put Allen Ginsberg's obituary on its front page.  He did not

go unnoticed.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:14:49 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Zyprexa blues #235

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Marie Countryman wrote:

>

> david: this is just wonderful stream of consciousness and so detailed and

> expressive. wonderful wonderful.

> mc

>

thanks marie.  i'm happy with it as far as it goes.  much better with

detail than usual.  i caught myself and blocked off many of my usual

"and"s which probably helped provide the "bop" to it.  Some of my

previous typing with its "and" "and" "and" style had been rightly

accused of having "no Bop."  Maybe if i get the bop down on the keyboard

i'll even be able to tell my left from right foot in using the aerobics

video my father gave me for Xmas!!!!!!!!!

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:25:08 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule

In-Reply-To:  <199801232347.SAA19495@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Marie and any interested Beat-list members:

 

When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided

for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I

wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether

you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece

of art.

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.

 

Thanks,

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

>while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans

>cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon

>soule

> i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up

>to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)

>the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.

>

>scars

>

>the scars upon my heart are growing sore

>again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.

>they bleed in riptide as the bled before

>

>the silent shock that taught me to ignore

>the suffering became my first affair;

>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

>

>the seam in my protective armor tore

>away, and that was all the scars could bear

>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

>

>my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;

>it will not heal like sores exposed to air.

>the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

>

>the open wounds these cicatrices wore

>in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;

>they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

>

>the jail of my unloving has a door

>which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.

>the scars upon my heart are growing sore;

>the bleed in riptide as they bled before.

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:31:11 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: bad liver kerouac connection?

In-Reply-To:  <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>> I bet Jack did not have a great liver.

>

> i agree with you - he must have known, or he wouldn't be singing a song

>called 'jack and neil'. right?

>

>ksenija

>

>

kerouac says:

i got my idea for spontaneous prose from letters from cassady

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:19:26 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      the best of Marie Countryman poetry

In-Reply-To:  <34C8BCFC.54@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Marie says:

friends and others:

 

to all who are interested in hearing of my adventures, i am still

whacked out from the intensity and the momentum of the train. no

insomnia, thankfully, but not much poem or prose at the present time. so

instead,

 

Rinaldo replies:

i've archived yr following gem prose/poem/writing

in my bright memory section of the brain or in the

universal brain, thanks,

 

--------------------------------------------------

hi                              by Marie Countryman

 

didja ever walk down the streets

of your neighborhood

with ears wide open,

quiet quietly

 

and hear the two guys up the hill arguing,

as usual, over whose fielstone wall is best

the sounds of wet leaves dry leaves

squishy and crackling

tugging at your nostrils to open just a bit more

to inhale

to savor

this autumnal fragrance

didya just stop

and

shut your eyes and all movement

and surfed the autumnal audio waves?

moms talking to toddlers wafting out of windows

still open to the night breeze

birds land on branches, branches creaking

the noise your feet make on the cement gritty sidwalk

 

a mufller problem

that to date had been just a part of my white noise

up here in my apartment

suddently becomes a

particular muffler patter

easily distinguished

 

real car, real driver, real muffler problem,

don t look

 

you know that car, it lives two houses over

 

the noises of living:

geese in formation overhead

smaller hardier winter northland birds

cheeping

and there up overhead, squirrels

squabble as i scribble

hey you guys, have any of you ever done that ?

...........anyone?

 

 

Thu, 6 Nov 1997

--------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:50:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David

In-Reply-To:  <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the

list might be interested.

j grant

 

>Subject: JCNEWS: Pres. Clinton's injudicious indiscretions

>Sender: jcnews@yosemite.leepfrog.com

 

>Are there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky and

with Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old and

ailing?  (I Kings I:1-4)

 

>The words of Robert Frost come to mind:  PROVIDE, PROVIDE

        The witch that came (the withered hag)

        To wash the steps with pail and rag,

        Was once the baauty Abishag,

 

        The picture pride of Hollywood.

        Too many fall from great and good

        For you to doubt the likelihood.

 

        Die early and avoid the fate

        Or if predestined to die late

        Make up your mind to die in state.

 

        Make the whole stock exchange Your own!

        If need be occupy a throne,

        Where nobody can call YOU crone.

 

        Some have relied on what they knew;

        Others on being simply true.

        What worked for them might work for you.

 

        No memory of having starred

        Atones for later disregard,

        Or keeps the end from being hard.

 

        Better to go down dignified

        With boughten friendship at your side

        Than none at all.  PROVIDE, PROVIDE!.

 

        Signed:    Earl Rose

>earl rose <erose@BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:02:39 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 24-Jan-98 11:48:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,

jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM writes:

 

<< Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the

 list might be interested.

 j grant

  >>

 

Response from one listmember: Wrong. I am NOT interested. It's hard enough to

sift through non-Beat posts on this list without the addition of a news item

that's already on every other bandwave in the universe.

 

Take note, Susan and others. Watch this topic become a thread and source of

contention among us all!

 

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:25:15 -0800

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David

 

i'm ignoring the whole damn thing.  i refuse to read anything in the papers

about it or watch the news.  and this is all i will say on the subject.

DEFINITELY NOT beat.

 

ciao, sherri

-----Original Message-----

From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 12:15 PM

Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King David

 

 

>In a message dated 24-Jan-98 11:48:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,

>jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM writes:

>

><< Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought

the

> list might be interested.

> j grant

>  >>

>

>Response from one listmember: Wrong. I am NOT interested. It's hard enough

to

>sift through non-Beat posts on this list without the addition of a news

item

>that's already on every other bandwave in the universe.

>

>Take note, Susan and others. Watch this topic become a thread and source of

>contention among us all!

>

>Maggie

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:47:51 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule

MIME-Version: 1.0

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hi jo:

i wasn't thinking in terms of altered art, just was wanting to share the pome

with others. i have some bad carpal tunnel syndrome; if you go over most of my

previous posts of others works, you will probably find the same. it's e mail,

i'm not claiming anything or altering any thing to make any point. it's just

that if i had to use caps, i'd be writing a lot less. and sharing very few

gems among the rubble.

just me

if this is a big issue for you and not others, perhaps we can back channel. in

fact, as it is really a non beat issue, i'd appreciate private email, as we

have been swamped by too much off topic stuff of late.

if you don't think it's off topic, then continue the thread.

didn't mean nuthin by it.

sorry if you misread.

mc

 

jo grant wrote:

 

> Marie and any interested Beat-list members:

>

> When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided

> for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I

> wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether

> you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece

> of art.

>

> I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.

>

> Thanks,

>

> j grant

>

> >while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans

> >cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon

> >soule

> > i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up

> >to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)

> >the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.

> >

> >scars

> >

> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore

> >again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.

> >they bleed in riptide as the bled before

> >

> >the silent shock that taught me to ignore

> >the suffering became my first affair;

> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

> >

> >the seam in my protective armor tore

> >away, and that was all the scars could bear

> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

> >

> >my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;

> >it will not heal like sores exposed to air.

> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

> >

> >the open wounds these cicatrices wore

> >in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;

> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

> >

> >the jail of my unloving has a door

> >which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.

> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore;

> >the bleed in riptide as they bled before.

>

>                     HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

>                              Details  on-line at

>                                  http://www.bookzen.com

>                       625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:33:36 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Bad Liver & a Broken Heart

 

Anyone who has any doubts about the Tom Wait's alllusion to Kerouac should chec

k the album jacket for "Small Change."  There's a picture of Kerouac on the dre

sser.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:00:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: :Altered art-re: Anne Bacon Soule

In-Reply-To:  <199801242050.PAA15919@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Thought writers might respond with thoughts. Whether they would approve, or

disapprove if a work of theirs was altered--E-mail or no. Not a big deal at

all. Just curious.

 

j grant

 

 

>hi jo:

>i wasn't thinking in terms of altered art, just was wanting to share the pome

>with others. i have some bad carpal tunnel syndrome; if you go over most of my

>previous posts of others works, you will probably find the same. it's e mail,

>i'm not claiming anything or altering any thing to make any point. it's just

>that if i had to use caps, i'd be writing a lot less. and sharing very few

>gems among the rubble.

>just me

>if this is a big issue for you and not others, perhaps we can back channel. in

>fact, as it is really a non beat issue, i'd appreciate private email, as we

>have been swamped by too much off topic stuff of late.

>if you don't think it's off topic, then continue the thread.

>didn't mean nuthin by it.

>sorry if you misread.

>mc

>

>jo grant wrote:

>

>> Marie and any interested Beat-list members:

>>

>> When I saw the (non caps mine) in the Anne Bacon Soule poem you provided

>> for the list I wondered which words you had removed the caps from. Then I

>> wondered if, because you appear to never use caps in your posts, whether

>> you have the right to extend your STYLE to another when reproducing a piece

>> of art.

>>

>> I'd appreciate any thoughts listers have about this.

>>

>> Thanks,

>>

>> j grant

>>

>> >while in san francisco, actually on the night i read at polk and beans

>> >cafe, i bought a chapbook called 'the fat lady sings' by anne bacon

>> >soule

>> > i was told she was in dire straits and needed the money. i opened it up

>> >to this one pome and bought it immediately:(non caps mine)

>> >the musicality of the piece makes me want to put music to it.

>> >

>> >scars

>> >

>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore

>> >again. i feel their unhealed ridges tear.

>> >they bleed in riptide as the bled before

>> >

>> >the silent shock that taught me to ignore

>> >the suffering became my first affair;

>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

>> >

>> >the seam in my protective armor tore

>> >away, and that was all the scars could bear

>> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

>> >

>> >my heart is cleft, and vulnerable once more;

>> >it will not heal like sores exposed to air.

>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore.

>> >

>> >the open wounds these cicatrices wore

>> >in pain cannot be hidden anywhere;

>> >they bleed in riptide as they bled before.

>> >

>> >the jail of my unloving has a door

>> >which hangs ajar on rotting uprights there.

>> >the scars upon my heart are growing sore;

>> >the bleed in riptide as they bled before.

>>

>>                     HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

>>                              Details  on-line at

>>                                  http://www.bookzen.com

>>                       625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

 

                    HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES

                             Details  on-line at

                                 http://www.bookzen.com

                      625,506 Visitors  07-01-96 to 11-28-97

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:23:26 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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jo grant wrote:

>

> Just received and interesting post from JCNews (Iowa City) and thought the

> list might be interested.

> j grant

>

> >Are there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky and

> with Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old and

> ailing?  (I Kings I:1-4)

>

> >The words of Robert Frost come to mind:  PROVIDE, PROVIDE

 

though i doubt that the parallel is very strong - i must admit i found

the cross-post amusing.  i definitely follow politics and enjoy the

gifts and foibles of politicians.  it seems that the new beat

definitions tend to eliminate anything even tangentially political from

the pantheon.  i suppose the use of clippings concerning the Vietnam War

would have made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat and certainly his

involvement at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would be

considered treasonous to the beat cause.

 

thanks for the cross-post.  i must admit i was on the brink of shifting

back to digest form because the Beat-L was tending to be just bickering

about what could be talked about (despite Bill's kind way of measuring

the scope of the list) and i'm glad that some amusing comparisons

connecting literature and real life today was thrown my way.  Perhaps

there is hope for the list in 1998 afterall.

 

david

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 18:24:35 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Who Will Take Over the Universe?

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I'm taking a moment to type out the text of this first poem in Planet

News by Allen Ginsberg in hopes of beginning a heated dialogue not only

about this poem but about Allen Ginsberg, his writing and his place in

history.  We have complained about the poor treatment Allen received in

year end reviews -- yet, we have failed to do any better.  So in tribute

to Allen:

 

Who Will Take Over the Universe?

 

A bitter cold winter night

conspirators at cafe tables

        discovering mystic jails

The Revolution in America

        already begun not bombs but sit

                down strikes on top submarines,

        on sidewalks nearby City Hall --

How many families control the States?

        Ignore the Government,

                send your protest to Clint Murchison.

The Indians won their case with Judge McFate

                        Peyote safe in Arizona --

        In my room the sick junky

                                shivers on the 7th day

                        Tearful, reborn to the Winter.

Che Guevera has a big cock

                                Castro's balls are pink --

The Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs

                        over America like dirty linen

        draped over the wintery red sunset,

        Fumes of Unconscious Gas

                        emanate from his corpse

                and hypnotize the Egyptian intellectuals --

He grinds his teeth in horror & crosses his

                        thigh bones over his skull

        Dust flows out of his asshole

                his hands are full of bacteria

                        The worm is at his eye --

        He's declaring conterrevolutions in

                                the Worm-world,

                my cat threw him up last

                                Thursday.

& Forrestal flew out his window like an Eagle --

America's spending money to overthrow the Man.

                Who are the rulers of the earth?

 

January 6, 1961

 

may the discussions begin!!!!

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:55:17 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)

Subject:      Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

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In a message dated 24-Jan-98 4:44:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, race@MIDUSA.NET

writes:

 

<< it seems that the new beat definitions tend to eliminate anything even

tangentially political from the pantheon.  i suppose the use of clippings

concerning the Vietnam War would have made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat

and certainly his involvement at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would

be

 considered treasonous to the beat cause. >>

 

What "new beat definitions," David? I think you're really stretching here.

 

Jo Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Comments about Ginsberg, in any context,

are entirely Beat.

 

For those of us who don't get the list in digest form, complaining about off-

topic posts is perhaps especially necessary and legitimate.

 

I don't understand why this concept is so hard for some people to grasp. We

really had a few days of great discussion rolling, and I, for one, was glad

for it and a participant in it.

 

Perhaps even more relevant was the fact that among the postings there were so

many different authors, posts by people who normally don't post. They came out

to discuss Kerouac as poet and other Beat-related stuff. It was refreshing!!!

It was exciting!!

 

Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list

content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent

to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.

 

I did not.

MD

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:07:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <the.lunatic@LUNATIC-MEDIA.COM>

Subject:      pardon the minor spam. . .

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20"

 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20

Content-Type: text/plain;

        charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hey Beat-l,

 

I figured there was a few of you who might be interested in my website, =

so I'm extended an invitation for all fans of John Coltrane to come by =

and see what's going on at The Trane Station ( =

http://www.lunatic-media.com/tranestation ).

 

Pardon the minor spam,

 

Bruce

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20

Content-Type: text/html;

        charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

<HTML>

<HEAD>

 

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =

http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey =

Beat-l,</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>I figured there was a =

few of you who=20

might be interested in my website, so I'm extended an invitation for all =

fans of=20

John Coltrane to come by and see what's going on at The Trane Station ( =

<A=20

href=3D"http://www.lunatic-media.com/tranestation">http://www.lunatic-med=

ia.com/tranestation</A>=20

).</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pardon the minor spam,</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bruce</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =

size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

 

------=_NextPart_000_0045_01BD2903.A8254F20--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:26:05 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David

MIME-Version: 1.0

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As tempted as I am to simply ignore the Lewinsky/Clinton thread in the hopes

that it dies, I will say that the only beat connection here for me would be that

the cultural revolution we associate with the beats is far from complete.

Obviously Cotton Mather and his spiritual descendants still thrive, or this non-

story, which at best should be a minor chortle, would not be making America and

her sexual dementia the laughingstock of the world.

 

James Stauffer

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:30:05 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Tsk, Tsk, David, your knuckles have been slapped!  An old timer like you

 offending

in such egregious fashion!

 

James Stauffer

 

IDDHI wrote:  . . .

 

> Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list

> content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent

> to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.

>

> I did not.

> MD

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:46:34 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Back to Allen (was Re: Lewinsky-Clinton  /  Abishag-King David)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James Stauffer wrote:

>

> Tsk, Tsk, David, your knuckles have been slapped!  An old timer like you

>  offending

> in such egregious fashion!

>

> James Stauffer

>

> IDDHI wrote:  . . .

 

Actually, i felt that the comments (except for me being an old-timer --

less than a year under my belt) made quite a bit of sense.  I offered

the poem from Planet News as a sort of assertive reply hoping that all

with memoires of Allen or thoughts and beliefs too knotted up in the

emotion of last spring will join in a re-eulogizing of Allen (and

perhaps later or between William as well).  My intention is for the

Planet News poem to provide a direct springboard for those who prefer

critical commentary -- but also because within the poem are glimpses of

so many images which might LINK to other passages in other poems or

other stories about Allen and perhaps the type of fun and comraderie

which increased the traffic excitedly over cybersex before remembering

we'd lost the scope can be re-directed and electrify a wonderful eulogy

until Valentine's Day and beyond of that great Cupid of the Beat

Generation Allen Ginsberg.

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:59:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Masters of the Beat Universe

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Jo Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Even though I think you're really

stretching here.

Are there parallels between the alleged involvement with Ms. Lewinsky

and

with Abishag, the young woman who attended King David when he was old

and

ailing, even if she is just "Saluting the Meat God of XX Century..."

[AG]  And it is my firm believe that everything posted to this list is

beat, everything.  Further, "[t]he reader should know that this is just

a collection of dreams that I scribbled ... ."  [JK]

 

Comments about Ginsberg, in any context, are entirely Beat, but

I suppose the use of clippings concerning the Vietnam War would have

made Allen's Wichita Vortex Sutra unbeat and certainly his involvement

at the 1968 Democratic National Convention would be considered

treasonous to the beat cause.  "The Earth is Saved!  Next Number!" [AG]

Complaining about offtopic posts is perhaps especially necessary and

legitimate.  "Some have relied on what they knew; Others on being simply

true. What worked for them might work for you."  [RF]   "There's no

rain, there's no me, (there's no such thing as beat list topics) I'm

telling you man sure as shit.  [JK] I don't understand why this concept

is so hard for some people to grasp.  "I could say a lots more but ain't

got time or sense."  [JK]

 

Perhaps even more relevant was the fact that among the postings there

were so many different authors, posts by people who normally don't

post.  "Hey you guys, have any of you ever done that ?" [MC]  I am NOT

interested.   Watch this topic become a thread and source of contention

among us all!  The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily

have been sent to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.

Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list

content.  But, it seems that the new beat definitions tend to eliminate

anything even tangentially political from the pantheon.  My apologies to

the list once again. Then again, the list can "Bite my naked nut, roll

my bones" [JK], cause I decide what is beat, not you.  After all, I have

been beaten.  But, I will say with a "touch of vocal flattery" [AG],

that when I see a beat list post, I "open the envelope quickly."  [WW]

Then I  wondered if, because you appear to never use anything beat in

your posts, whether you have the right to extend your STYLE to another

when reproducing a piece of  sacred art. After all, kerouac says: i got

my idea for spontaneous prose from letters from cassady".  Jazz killed

itself, but don't let (the beat list) kill itself.  [JK]

 

These beat list posts are not beat, nor are they off-topic, they simply

are.  If you wish, make them cease to exist with the touch of a key, you

control the universe known to you.  Go, cat go.  Carl Perkins is dead.

Blow cat blow.  Jr. Wells is dead.  No, cat no.  Luther Allison has

died.  The BEAT goes on, even though Sonny Bono is dead.

 

Show me the money.

--

AG = Allen Ginsberg quotes

RF = Robert Frost quotes

JK = Jack Kerouac quotes

WW = Walt Whitman quotes

MC = Marie Countryman

Also, some from Joe Grant, Marie, Rinaldo, me, David and Maggie.

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:42:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      sleeipng

MIME-Version: 1.0

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nights.

insominia,  talking about the cure of my insomnia, all my anti medicine

friends and dear husband has insisted i take melatonin for a week or two

until my body regains some time sense of sleeping, worked instantly.  so

we were talking about health and sleep, and someone quipped that william

probably didn't sleep well, partying etc.  and my impression was except

for special events i thought he husbanded his rest very well. talking to

william,  I got the impression of him laying quietly half awake,

listening to his house, most of the night.  He said" i didn't hear the

furnace come on, right away i knew something was wrong, went and looked

and there was water every where. Later after a sump pump was put in  he

said, he woke up and didn't hear it working and called wayne and he got

it going right away.  another time he said, he heard noises early in the

morning in the kitchen that sounded heavier than one of the cats.  It

turned out a huge coon had begun coming in the cat window (that was one

of the basement windows) up the stairs to the kitchen and feasting on

the cat food william put out.  He described it as very large and snarly,

i don't recall how they solved that.

 

 

william's night.

half a sleep during his quiet.

listening to the sounds of the house.

he always took care of his sleep, furnace off, water everywhere,

sump pump put in, not sumping,

a heavier sound than  cat,

racoon comingin to the k early morning night,

padding in his jams, fixing a special bowl

for one feline or both. muttering my pretty

 

pitch pace

 

 

so david, i have loved your posts, and i am listening in you say i

should posts these thoughts i have for while they may have no point it

is nice to share.  i was stunned at the post that said that these were

ordinary guys that lucked out with a good publicity,  the publicity

might of made or helped their careers but having meet both allen and

william, neither were ordinary men. But many people aren't ordinary,

many are. I am not an ordinary person, doesn't mean i will ever be

famous or influential etc. but to imagine thoseguys as ordinary men with

ordinary talents would be wrong. no meaning to the word extraordinary

if  you think that.  Extraordinary people scare, offend and stick out,

even if they are harmless and to not much point. They also are often

fun, imaginative, creative, and sometimes like allen and william men of

genius.  I know that william is great to many for being the writer and

artist he was, to some this is much more important than the man he was.

I liked the man he was.  I am not an intellectual, i have a native

intelligence and i love that both these guys had a will to really live

their lives.

hey my pen name has been patricia elliott for a long time, tonight i

thought of changing it to Pitch pace, i thought it was kind of bouncy.

love to you "old timers and young snappers.

patricia

 



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