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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:16:00 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy"
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From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein?
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To sum
up:
>
> There is an explicit reference that links (not attributes) Wittgenstein to
>
> Burroughs' idea of the pre-recorded universe in The Ticket that Exploded:
>
>
>
> "Wittgenstein said: 'No proposition can contain itself as an
argument' =
>
> The only thing _not_ prerecorded in a prerecorded universe is the
>
> prerecording itself which is to say _any_ recording that contains a random
>
> factor" (TTE 166).
>
Probably WSB was referring to these passages from the Tractatus:
>
> 3.331 From this observation we turn to
Russell's 'theory of
> types'. It can be seen that
Russell must be wrong, because
> he had to mention the meaning of
signs when establishing
> the rules for them.
> 3.332 No proposition can make a
statement about itself, because a
> propositional sign cannot be
contained in itself (that is
> the whole 'theory of types').
> So
here is what I think happened: WSB simply used this phrase as a
>
point of departure for his own thoughts. I do this a lot myself;
>
reading something, a sentence or turn of phrase sends me off on a long
>
train of thought that ends up having little or nothing to do with the
>
original context of whatever I was reading. Wittgenstein's writing
> here
was nothing more than an initial impetus for WSB, as far as I
>
can tell. It's going too far to say that this idea was "instrumental"
> or
an "influence". And of course the whole "film" and
"recording"
>
terminology (as well as the reference to "random factors") are
>
entirely WSB's own.
Perhaps
I was overenthusiastic in my choice of terminology. Point of
departure
is probably a better way of looking at it. Bickering over
quantitative
measurements of a qualitative system probably isn't advisable
(as
Burroughs would have said (and did, in The Cat Inside among other
places)).
The importance of Burroughs' citing Wittgenstein can be
overlooked,
however the importance of Burroughs' notion of the prerecorded
universe
cannot. It stands along with Hassan I Sabbah's "Nothing is True.
Everything
is Permitted" and the Algebra of Need as one of the dominant
metaphysical/philosophical
notions in his oeuvre. It's also one of the
trickiest
to puzzle out.
>
> On Language Games:
>
> Tim Murphy's new book posits that "[Burroughs' work] emerges from the
>
> liminal space of literature with a 'plan of living' rather than an
>
> endlessly deferred 'participation in language games' or an empty 'love for
>
> the world through language' a la John Barth." He makes a pretty
convincing
>
> argument too, and I'd refer you to him for the rest of it.
>
>
"There is no characteristic common to everything we call games....
>
instead we find a complicated network of similarities and
>
relationships overlapping and crisscrossing....This feature of 'game'
> is
one which Wittgenstein believed is shared with language, and this
>
made it particularly appropriate to call particular mini-languages
>
'language-games'. There were others. Most importantly, even though not
>
all games have rules, the function of rules in many games has
>
similarities with the function of rules in language. Language-games,
>
like games, need have no external goal; they can be autonomous
>
activities. But the comparison of language to a game was not meant to
>
suggest that language was a pastime, or something trivial: on the
>
contrary, it was meant to bring out the connection between the
>
speaking of language and non-linguistic activites. Indeed the speaking
> of
language is part of a communal activity, a way of living im society
>
which W. calls a 'form of life'. It is thru sharing in the playing of
>
language-games that language is connected with our life."
>
(from Anthony Kenny, _Wittgenstein_, p163)
>
> So
*any* use of language is a language-game. A language-game is not a
>
trivial use of language, as opposed to some serious purpose. Whether
>
you're playing the same language-game as someone else depends on what
>
rules you are following, what goals you have in mind, whether you
>
share certain sorts of training in how to use the language and a
>
shared history of its use (i.e. a form of life). Of course it's
>
possible to switch from one language-game to another, and this is no
>
doubt what WSB was trying to do: to shift us from a language-game in
>
which language functions as an instrument of control to another game
> in
which it does not.
I think
what Tim Murphy was saying above, and I agree with him on this,
is that
Burroughs does not use language in the way characterised by Kenny:
"Language-games,
like games, need have no external goal; they can
be
autonomous activities". Burroughs always had a program, an
extra-linguistic
objective beyond words: to cut control lines, to find
silence,
to get into space. In all of these he aimed to get past the
autonomous
language games of infinite deferral. Although I admit that I
used
game in the sense of trivial, I still think Burroughs was trying to
get
beyond a system of language that could be characterized as a game,
with
rules (cut control lines, cut word lines...) Burroughs' fragmentation
of
text, and rewriting of history does not stem from a belief in the
inefficacy
of all production (like Baudrillard's triumph of abstract
mediation,
the nullity of all signs) but out of a project for freedom
from
linguistic and socio-historical control.
Neil
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:36:44 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
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Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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>
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> We have complained about the poor treatment
Allen received in
>
year end reviews -- yet, we have failed to do any better. So in
>
tribute
> to
Allen:
>
Who Will Take Over the Universe?
>
> A
bitter cold winter night
>
conspirators at cafe tables
> discovering mystic jails
>
The Revolution in America
> already begun not bombs but sit
> down strikes on top
submarines,
> on sidewalks nearby City Hall --
>
How many families control the States?
> Ignore the Government,
> send your protest to Clint
Murchison.
>
The Indians won their case with Judge McFate
> Peyote safe in
Arizona --
> In my room the sick junky
> shivers on
the 7th day
> Tearful, reborn to
the Winter.
>
Che Guevera has a big cock
> Castro's
balls are pink --
>
The Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs
> over America like
dirty linen
> draped over the wintery red sunset,
> Fumes of Unconscious Gas
> emanate from his
corpse
> and hypnotize the Egyptian
intellectuals --
> He
grinds his teeth in horror & crosses his
> thigh bones over his
skull
> Dust flows out of his asshole
> his hands are full of
bacteria
> The worm is at his
eye --
> He's declaring conterrevolutions in
> the
Worm-world,
> my cat threw him up last
> Thursday.
>
& Forrestal flew out his window like an Eagle --
>
America's spending money to overthrow the Man.
> Who are the rulers of the
earth?
>
>
January 6, 1961
OK
David, let's take up a discussion of this poem. First of all, the
poem is
intensely political and probably cannot be fully understood
without
knowing who's who. My impression is
that Ginsberg is saying the
revolution
has begun and inciting people to take an active stance in
changing
America.
"Ignore
the Government, send your protest to Clint Murchison"--Murchison
was a
billionaire industrialist, probably in Ginsberg's eyes one of the
people
responsible for Molach--banks, buildings, oil reserves, real
estate.
The
Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
OK for
religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans, but
what
about the junky shivering in my room? "Tearful, reborn to the
Winter"
takes one into the emotional necessity of addiction and the bleak
toll it
has on the user. It also is saying loud
and clear that if
all
drugs were legal like peyote, much human suffering would be
eliminated.
"The
Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs over America like dirty linen...Dust
flows
out of his asshole, his hands are full of bacteria, The worm is at
his
eye..." Dulles is dead two years
at this point but the cold war with
China
he perpetuated as secretary of state lives on.
Ginsberg's own
views
of peace, compassion, and harmony are at odds with the philosophy
of
China as the enemy, with the idea of anyone taking over the universe.
"Forrestal
flew out his window like an eagle"--also not a popular figure
with
Ginsberg; he began the first U.S. peacetime draft in 1948 and then
1949,
obsessed with invasion of America by its enemies, communists,
Russians,
committed suicide by jumping out of his mental hospital window.
The
whole sense I get from this image is that those making policy in
America
are delusional; it's the same America we saw in Howl, the names
have
changed but America is still on the wrong course, valuing money,
limiting
personal freedoms (esp. in the area of drug use), making enemies
of
Russia and China, and anyone in this country who sees other ideologies
and
peoples as not entirely bad.
The
most interesting question is perhaps: Who is the Man? Is it Castro?
And the
irony in the title question? "Who Will Take Over the
Universe?
"Who are the rulers of the earth?"
Does America really have
the
audacity to think of itself in this role?
Ginsberg was a poet of
human
emotions but he was also intensely political.
He wanted people to
think
about America, its goals, its ideals, and to tear apart those ideas
and
actions that would have our nationalism become the world's
nationalism. The idea of who will take over the universe?
America,
Russia,
China? is at the heart of sixties movements. But now, with the
cold
war waining, perhaps the most powerful image of the poem that
remains
is the sick junky, shivering on the 7th day, "tearful, reborn to
winter."
DC
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Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:07:09 -0800
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Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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>The
Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
>OK
for religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans
I am
very very pleased and happy to read this Diane. I have often wondered
if
anyone would like beat literature or be interested in it if they hadn't
been at
one time or another drug users or aficionados a la the ob's
(original
beats).
Indians
(or anyone else for that matter) never smoked Peyote, it is not
taken
that way.
This
ain't a knock on you for your lack of knowledge, but quite the opposite.
(Anyhoo
as well, John Dulles was right more than Ginsy. But he did have
more
information).
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:04:47 -0600
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Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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Diane
Carter wrote:
>
> OK
David, let's take up a discussion of this poem. First of all, the
>
poem is intensely political and probably cannot be fully understood
>
without knowing who's who. My
impression is that Ginsberg is saying the
> revolution
has begun and inciting people to take an active stance in
>
changing America.
Here AG
is powerfully predictive of the future successes of passive
resistance
in America fighting segregationist policies of City Halls and
even
further of the peace movement of the 1970s and early 80s with the
idea of
linking sit-down strikes to the image of the submarine. Are
these
images pure prophecy or is Allen perhaps connecting the power of
resistance
of some of the old communist and socialist thinking (not
always
passive in manner) on which he was raised.
Can anyone else here
Joe
Hill singing Wobblie songs in between the lines of the first words
in this
poem?
>
>
"Ignore the Government, send your protest to Clint
Murchison"--Murchison
>
was a billionaire industrialist, probably in Ginsberg's eyes one of the
>
people responsible for Molach--banks, buildings, oil reserves, real
>
estate.
This
reveals the paradox facing the radical in these early revolutionary
days --
for who are we to protest against, a government at the time led
by the
Kennedy clan's money or the underlying greed-machine he
represents
in Murchison. I found it interesting
that the Kennedy nor
Eisenhower
names did not appear in the poem so he seems to outwardly say
here that
the true enemy and source of control does not reside in the
White
House - but in the combination of corporate money and local city
halls. This in some ways suggests a radical notion
of thinking globally
at the
source of evil and acting locally to bring about change on the
sidewalks
of communities around the Universe.
The
idea of ignoring the government is very important. He specifically
says
NOT to protest the government this would be a misdirection of
resistance. His answer is to ignore the government. But ignoring the
government
is itself a form of protest. At about
the same time as this
poem is
written Saul Alinsky is writing in Rules for Radicals to bring
about
change by entering the system and fighting from within. While AG
seems to
accept this at the level of sidewalk citizenry he won't embrace
legitimizing
the established system of government that protects the
Molochian
machine. By 1968 he seems to have moved
from this view to
what
Buckley would consider a rather less naive view of participating in
the
protests at the Democratic National Convention. Ironically, America
might
have had it better if the radicals had followed the advice of this
poem. Ignoring the process of National Politics
might have achieved a
better
revolutionary purpose. As it was, the
radical participation
seemed
to split the democratic party into total political confusion and
assure
the ascension of Poor Richard to the throne.
It seems to me that
the
line between Alinsky and Allen's viewpoints is better served by what
i
recently told my brother would be a movement of psychedelic or junkie
republicans. In this manner the disruptions would have
been
incorporated
into the Republican camp balancing the hardliners and at
the
same time ignoring the Democratic Convention and allowing the normal
procedures
of Daley's Chicago to push through a candidate less Molochian
than
Poor Richard.
>
>
The Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
> OK
for religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans, but
>
what about the junky shivering in my room? "Tearful, reborn to the
>
Winter" takes one into the emotional necessity of addiction and the bleak
>
toll it has on the user. It also is
saying loud and clear that if
>
all drugs were legal like peyote, much human suffering would be
>
eliminated.
In the
years since this poem the insanity regarding narcotics policy in
the
Universe makes these lines pound back and forth in my brain. The
universe
allows for methadone clinics but resists clean needle
programs. The government condemns tobacco but
subsidizes the tobacco
farmers. Alcohol's failed prohibition leaves it
untouched in the
building
war on drugs and yet the government may (according to some news
reports
i've posted) be playing both sides of this war. Some of my
friends
have been excited that the terminology of warfare is not
warranted
with regard to the chaos of America's narcotic's policy and i
just
shake my head. AG is correct that bombs
aren't the only
revolutionary
and counter-revolutionary forces ---- and the control of
the
synapses of the Universe - the pharmaceutical speed given ADD
children
while an adult with a couple of joints is sent to prison to
write
letters of grace and karma is far more than a skirmish in the
revolution
that exists in the universe from the point of my conception
until
the present -- the battle for the minds of the people in order to
make
the hearts only broken fragments crying in asylums.
>
>
"The Ghost of John F. Dulles hangs over America like dirty linen...Dust
>
flows out of his asshole, his hands are full of bacteria, The worm is at
>
his eye..." Dulles is dead two
years at this point but the cold war with
>
China he perpetuated as secretary of state lives on. Ginsberg's own
>
views of peace, compassion, and harmony are at odds with the philosophy
> of
China as the enemy, with the idea of anyone taking over the universe.
And
Dulles' China view is taken full force by Poor Richard the words Red
China
following him through the early and mid-sixties until he
flip-flops
on China in April 1967 in a Foreign Affairs article and the
Universe
twists from a two China policy of Taiwan and mainland China to
a
one-China policy that nobody understands and the biggest irony in the
twisting
is now the leftists hate the Chinese but out of political
correctness
don't refer to them by red, yellow or any other colour.
>
>
"Forrestal flew out his window like an eagle"--also not a popular
figure
>
with Ginsberg; he began the first U.S. peacetime draft in 1948 and then
>
1949, obsessed with invasion of America by its enemies, communists,
>
Russians, committed suicide by jumping out of his mental hospital window.
Two
things hit me in the forehead from this information. First is the
connection
of "flew like an eagle" with the beginning of Kesey's lovely
story
"one flew east, one flew west, one flew over the cuckoo's nest."
This
eagle trapped in the cuckoo's nest didn't fly out the window but
fell to
his death. The second is the image of
the eagle and suicide
together. The emblem of Americunnism and perhaps the
least understood
cultural
phenomenon in the Universe bound together in a phrase.
Fascinating.
>
>
The whole sense I get from this image is that those making policy in
>
America are delusional; it's the same America we saw in Howl, the names
>
have changed but America is still on the wrong course, valuing money,
>
limiting personal freedoms (esp. in the area of drug use), making enemies
> of
Russia and China, and anyone in this country who sees other ideologies
>
and peoples as not entirely bad.
What i
find interesting is that Ginsberg is very definitely Naming
Enemies. This is a change since the earlier
poetry. And your
elaboration
on who these names are brings the imagery of Howl more into
focus
for me. It is easy to discuss evil in
the abstract it becomes
difficult
when we start connecting evil with particular individuals.
Evil in
this poem is just as real but it is brought about by the actions
of
human beings -- specific human beings -- and not vice versa in which
the
evil controls the stage of human behavior.
The blame seems to shift
from
Howl to here -- but maybe i'm mistaken.
>
>
The most interesting question is perhaps: Who is the Man?
And is
the man male? <grin>
thanks
for your lovely post Diane and apologies for my brain straying
too far
from your thoughts. your post is so
full of ideas that i might
make
another run at it in a day or two.
dbr
> DC
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:08:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
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>
Timothy,
well
considering the way the stuff tastes .
. .you gotta wonder what it would
smelll
like!
JS
>
>
>
Indians (or anyone else for that matter) never smoked Peyote, it is not
>
taken that way.
>
>
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:38:38 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton /
Abishag-King David
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IDDHI
wrote:
>
>
> Jo
Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Comments about Ginsberg, in any context,
>
are entirely Beat.
what is
beat anyway? isn't beat a way of thinking and life, not just
discussing
people who wrote it?
>
>
>
Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to list
>
content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have been sent
> to
you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
>
> I
did not.
> MD
but,
you can delete if you don't want to read. i mean, i may not be
interested
either, but if you tell people what they can or cannot talk
about
may sound like censorship.
ksenija
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:42:18 PST
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Subject: a poem and a question
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for
your pleasure...
i wish i knew if my mind was like others
are you as mad as i am? i'd ask
you if i knew you wouldn't run away
like you wanted to and did before
are my worries anxieties tyrants
hopes joys ecstasies the same as yours?
what i mean is
could you love me as i love you?
i want to be INSIDE you
r head and know you
what a warm blanket of comfort
this would be.
and
this brings me to a question: what makes some one, or something,
beat?
is this poem? and what exactly made allen's poetry beat? speaking
of
whom...i know of few people who sucked
as long or as hard at the
teat of
life as allen ginsberg did. or did i just hit on the answer
myself
right there?
john b
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:55:25 PST
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Subject: Re: Lewinsky-Clinton / Abishag-King
David
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ksenija
wrote:
>
>IDDHI
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
Jo Grant's post was entirely un-Beat. Comments about Ginsberg, in any
context,
>>
are entirely Beat.
>
>what
is beat anyway? isn't beat a way of thinking and life, not just
>discussing
people who wrote it?
>>
>>
>>
Old-timers to the list, I think, should be especially sensitive to
list
>>
content. The political/religious analogy Jo posted could easily have
been
sent
>>
to you directly, as a pal who seemed to enjoy it.
>>
>>
I did not.
>>
MD
>
>but,
you can delete if you don't want to read. i mean, i may not be
>interested
either, but if you tell people what they can or cannot talk
>about
may sound like censorship.
>
>ksenija
>
censorship?
i think not... more like an attempt to guide the dialogue in
more
meaningful ways. would restricting speakers in a lecture series to
a
single general topic be censorship as well?
john b
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:13:47 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
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Subject: Re: who will take over the universe?
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Barney.
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Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:28:51 +0000
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>
patricia: as usual, you show the humanity of wsb (your william, i would
>
not usurp yr name for him, his first name, the one of the beats who was
>
not refeerrd to many times by his given name.
thank
you again for your thoughtful, human, intellegent responses.mc
>
william's night.
>
half a sleep during his quiet.
>
listening to the sounds of the house.
> he
always took care of his sleep, furnace off, water everywhere,
> sump
pump put in, not sumping,
> a
heavier sound than cat,
>
racoon comingin to the k early morning night,
>
padding in his jams, fixing a special bowl
>
for one feline or both. muttering my pretty
>
>
pitch pace
>
> so
david, i have loved your posts, and i am listening in you say i
>
should posts these thoughts i have for while they may have no point it
> is
nice to share. i was stunned at the
post that said that these were
>
ordinary guys that lucked out with a good publicity, the publicity
>
might of made or helped their careers but having meet both allen and
>
william, neither were ordinary men. But many people aren't ordinary,
>
many are. I am not an ordinary person, doesn't mean i will ever be
>
famous or influential etc. but to imagine thoseguys as ordinary men with
>
ordinary talents would be wrong. no meaning to the word extraordinary
>
if you think that. Extraordinary people scare, offend and stick
out,
>
even if they are harmless and to not much point. They also are often
> fun,
imaginative, creative, and sometimes like allen and william men of
>
genius. I know that william is great to
many for being the writer and
>
artist he was, to some this is much more important than the man he was.
> I
liked the man he was. I am not an
intellectual, i have a native
>
intelligence and i love that both these guys had a will to really live
>
their lives.
>
hey my pen name has been patricia elliott for a long time, tonight i
>
thought of changing it to Pitch pace, i thought it was kind of bouncy.
>
love to you "old timers and young snappers.
>
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:26:00 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
Tim - i
have heard that Indians have in fact smoked peyote. used to live
near a
reservation in the Sierra Nevadas. it's
not traditional, apparently,
but it
does happen.
ciao,
sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Timothy K. Gallaher <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, January 24, 1998 11:10 PM
Subject:
Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
>>The
Indians won their case with Judge McFate, in other words, drugs are
>>OK
for religious purposes, peyote can be smoked by Native Americans
>
>I
am very very pleased and happy to read this Diane. I have often wondered
>if
anyone would like beat literature or be interested in it if they hadn't
>been
at one time or another drug users or aficionados a la the ob's
>(original
beats).
>
>Indians
(or anyone else for that matter) never smoked Peyote, it is not
>taken
that way.
>
>This
ain't a knock on you for your lack of knowledge, but quite the
opposite.
>
>
>
>(Anyhoo
as well, John Dulles was right more than Ginsy. But he did have
>more
information).
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:30:48 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: who will take over the universe?
HAHAHAHA!!! you're too funny. i could even hear you say
it, girl. how ya
doin
this morning? ciao, sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Sunday, January 25, 1998 4:16 AM
Subject:
Re: who will take over the universe?
>Barney.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:48:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.ULT.3.95q.980120135141.9490A-100000@noether.math.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-version:
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On Sun,
25 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
places)). The importance of Burroughs' citing Wittgenstein can be
>
overlooked, however the importance of Burroughs' notion of the prerecorded
>
universe cannot. It stands along with Hassan I Sabbah's "Nothing is True.
>
Everything is Permitted" and the Algebra of Need as one of the dominant
>
metaphysical/philosophical notions in his oeuvre. It's also one of the
>
trickiest to puzzle out.
You
know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often
in
connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much
more
organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not
least
because N also cited HiS's motto:
When the Christian crusaders in the Orient
encountered the
invincible order of Assassins, that order
of free spirits *par
excellence*, whose lowest ranks followed a
rule of obedience the
like of which no order of monks ever
attained, they obtained in
some way or other a hint concerning that
symbol and watchword
reserved for the highest ranks alone as
their *secretum*: "Nothing
is true, everything is
permitted."--Very well, *that* was *freedom*
of spirit; in *that* way the faith in truth
itself was *abrogated*.
Has any European, any Christian free spirit
ever strayed into this
proposition and into its labyrinthine
consequences? has one of them
ever known the Minotaur of this cave *from
experience*?--I doubt
it....
(_On the Genealogy of Morals_ Third essay, section 24)
It suffices that the more superficially and
coarsely it is
conceived, the more valuable, definite,
beautiful, and significant
the world appears. The deeper one looks,
the more our valuations
disappear--meaninglessness approaches! We
have *created* the world
that possesses values! Knowing this, we
know, too, that reverence
for truth is already the consequence of an
illusion--and that one
should value more than truth the force that
forms, simplifies,
shapes, invents. "Everything is false!
Everything is permitted!"
Only with a certain obtuseness of vision, a
will to simplification,
does the beautiful, the
"valuable" appear....
(_The Will to Power_ section 602)
>
> > On Language Games:
>
>
> > Tim Murphy's new book posits that "[Burroughs' work] emerges
from the
>
> > liminal space of literature with a 'plan of living' rather than an
>
> > endlessly deferred 'participation in language games' or an empty
'love for
>
> > the world through language' a la John Barth." He makes a pretty
convincing
>
> > argument too, and I'd refer you to him for the rest of it.
>
> I
think what Tim Murphy was saying above, and I agree with him on this,
> is
that Burroughs does not use language in the way characterised by Kenny:
>
"Language-games, like games, need have no external goal; they can
> be
autonomous activities". Burroughs always had a program, an
>
extra-linguistic objective beyond words: to cut control lines, to find
>
silence, to get into space. In all of these he aimed to get past the
>
autonomous language games of infinite deferral. Although I admit that I
>
used game in the sense of trivial, I still think Burroughs was trying to
>
get beyond a system of language that could be characterized as a game,
>
with rules (cut control lines, cut word lines...) Burroughs' fragmentation
> of
text, and rewriting of history does not stem from a belief in the
>
inefficacy of all production (like Baudrillard's triumph of abstract
>
mediation, the nullity of all signs) but out of a project for freedom
>
from linguistic and socio-historical control.
While
language-games *need not* have an external goal, they *can* have
one, so
this account of language-games is not really inconsistent with
having
extra-linguistic objectives. But for W, language *as a whole*
cannot
be said to aim at any goal, just as *games in general* do not
aim at
a single goal--and in *this* sense, therefore, the rules of
language
are arbitrary:
Why don't I call cookery rules arbitray,
and why am I tempted to
call the rules of grammar arbitrary? Because
I think of the concept
"cookery" as defined by the end
of cookery, and I don't think of
the concept "language" as defined
by the end of language. You cook
badly if you are guided in your cooking by
rules other than the
right ones; but if you follow rules other
than those of chess you
are playing another game; and if you follow
grammatical rules other
than such and such ones, that does not mean
you say something
wrong, no, you are speaking of something
else.
(LW, _Philosophical Grammar_ section 133)
One of
the difficulties I've found with Wittgenstein is that it's just
about
impossible to get any critical traction in his work. Every time
you
attempt to make an objection, the answer is always, "Well, you're
just playing
a different language-game."
When
WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words, he
must,
qua writer, still use words. Here again I think Nietzsche may be
of more
help, with his notion of "self-overcoming": "All great things
bring
about their own destruction through an act of self-overcoming"
(Genealogy
of Morals, 3rd essay #27)--in other words, the very forces
that
made a thing what it is are the very same forces that eventually
bring
about that thing's movement beyond itself. For Nietzsche, it is
the
*value* of truth, when its consequences are followed out to
the end
that throws into question truth itself, and thus leads to
the
realization that "Nothing is true...."
So in
WSB: the power and logic of language is brought to turn against
itself.
But with Witt., it's not even clear that one language-game can
meaningfully
talk about another language-game. The most you could ever
say
about this from a Wittgensteinian perspective is that WSB simply
switched
language-games, leaving all others untouched. No friction.
So if
we are to avoid both this situation, as
well as
the claim that WSB simply contradicts himself by *writing*
about
the end of language, we would need a different, more powerful
interpretive
framework: N's conception of self-overcoming, perhaps.
So it
appears to me that Nietzsche contains, perhaps, much more
powerful
resources for helping us to undertand WSB's work than
Wittgenstein.
(For
more on self-overcoming, & besides N. himself, an interesting
book is
_The Question of Ethics_ by Charles E Scott, Indiana UP 1990)
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:06:06 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: beat vs. nonbeat-- a helpful guide
Comments:
cc: country@sover.net
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1.0
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7bit
Okay,
i've scanned the list for the last week and a half, and i have
come up
with this handy guide for everyone...
___BEAT
______________
_____NOTBEAT_
_________________________
changes
in naked lunch text ny
times onlyrecallingginsyfor
his
part in theivery
catholicism cia
jack
and allen jerking
matrimony proposals on-line
one another off after parties
homosexuality homophobia
kerouac
as straight queer?
cybersex
kerouac
is a poet kerouac is not a poet
tom
waits
kurt cobain
keroac/ginsberg
sex life
Lewinsky/Clinton sex life
zyprexa
blues 007
movies
pull my
daisy a movie being made
from
'breakfast of
champions'
possibly starring
bruce
willis
capital
letters no
capital letters
cold
war
gulf war
posts
complaining about non-beat posts
posting non-beat posts
hope i
helped everyone out on determining what is beat and what isn't
beat. Sometimes i think the world in general
should slow down and
listen
to how stupid it sounds at times.
objectively
yours,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 04:45:53 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Who Will Take Over the Universe?
MIME-Version:
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>
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
Here AG is powerfully predictive of the future successes of passive
>
Are these images pure prophecy or is Allen perhaps connecting the
>
power of
>
resistance of some of the old communist and socialist thinking (not
>
always passive in manner) on which he was raised. Can anyone else here
>
Joe Hill singing Wobblie songs in between the lines of the first words
> in
this poem?
I think
the whole idea of "conspirators at cafe tables" and "mystic
jails"
are part of the idea that if one has positions out of the
mainstream,
like communist ideals, than one is put in a position of
secretism
and conspirators have to be hidden, no one talks openly about
it.
Much
like in "America" where he says, " America when I was seven
momma
took me
to Communist Cell meetings they sold us garbanzos a handful per
ticket
a ticket costs a nickel and the speeches were free everybody was
angelic
and sentimental about the workers it was all so sincere you have
no idea
what a good thing the party was....Everybody must have been a
spy."
>
The idea of ignoring the government is very important. He specifically
>
says NOT to protest the government this would be a misdirection of
>
resistance. His answer is to ignore the
government. But ignoring the
>
government is itself a form of protest. [snipped]
> By
1968 he seems to have moved from this view to
>
what Buckley would consider a rather less naive view of participating
> in
>
the protests at the Democratic National Convention. Ironically,
>
America
>
might have had it better if the radicals had followed the advice of
>
this
>
poem. Ignoring the process of National Politics
might have achieved a
>
better revolutionary purpose.
Ignoring
the goverment does nothing more than perpetuate its negatives.
For
instance, by not voting one is consenting to, accepting the stance of
the
current government. Ginsberg, at some
point, saw that action is the
only
course for revolutionary change.
Ignoring the Vietnam war would not
have
changed the attitude of America concerning it; it was the masses
taking
to the streets in protest that showed the government there was not
only
another side to the situation but it was a vocal side that insisted
on
change.
> AG
is correct that bombs aren't the only
>
revolutionary and counter-revolutionary forces ---- and the control of
>
the synapses of the Universe - the pharmaceutical speed given ADD
>
children while an adult with a couple of joints is sent to prison to
>
write letters of grace and karma is far more than a skirmish in the
>
revolution that exists in the universe from the point of my conception
>
until the present -- the battle for the minds of the people in order to
>
make the hearts only broken fragments crying in asylums.
Well,
the whole campaign of "just say no to drugs" is a war against the
minds
of Americans, just a bit subtler then
saying Russia and China
wants
to take over the universe. In saying
drugs are bad, you are also
setting
up the idea that people who use drugs are bad.
That opens up the
judgement
that it is right to put people in jail for a couple joints, and
even as
we see now, charging poor women with child abuse for using drugs
while
pregnant. Nicotine is a legal drug but
the freedom to smoke now is
practically
regulated to the home. America's drug policies have always
been
screwed up because drug users are not seen as voters that can affect
change
in government policy.
>
What i find interesting is that Ginsberg is very definitely Naming
>
Enemies. This is a change since the
earlier poetry. And your
>
elaboration on who these names are brings the imagery of Howl more into
> focus
for me. It is easy to discuss evil in
the abstract it becomes
>
difficult when we start connecting evil with particular individuals.
>
Evil in this poem is just as real but it is brought about by the >
>
actions
> of
human beings -- specific human beings -- and not vice versa in which
>
the evil controls the stage of human behavior.
The blame seems to >
>
shift
>
from Howl to here -- but maybe i'm mistaken.
I think
evil is the same as it was in Howl but yes, by naming names he
starts
to put faces on it. Dulles, in particular, is named in many of the
poems
during this time period. Also, the
title of this particular book
of
poems is "Planet News: To Europe and Asia" which probably denotes
AG's
need to
"enlighten" Europe and Asia to what he sees as the "behind the
scenes"
agenda of the American government.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:45:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: quote search
In-Reply-To: <34C51B16.322D@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
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On Tue,
20 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
Preston Whaley wrote:
>
>
>
> A week or so back someone posted the following quote by Burroughs: "All
>
> agents defect, and all resisters sellout." Does anyone know the source?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Preston
>
> i
tried several forms of searches at Bigtable database with no luck.
>
>
dbr
>
Should
have used the concordance. It's on page 205 of whatever edition of
Naked
Lunch Luke used to compile the concordance. The link to the page on
his
site is:
http://www.bigtable.com/library/naked_lunch/205.html
Thanks
again to Luke for putting up such a great resource.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:51:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: The word "random" and WSB
In-Reply-To: <34C783F0.37E7@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
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On Thu,
22 Jan 1998, David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
> If
people can backchannel me specific references and quotations
>
concerning the meanings of "random" from WSB or other beat authors I
>
would appreciate it.
Burroughs
said "there is no such thing as a coincidence. How random is
random?"
In the Magical Universe nothing happens unless something wills it
to
happen.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:59:51 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980123042959.570757087A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version:
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On Fri,
23 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
> I
also recently read "The Central Verbal System: The Prose of William
>
Burroughs" by Michael Skau (who is on this list, I believe), in which
> he
states, in the course of giving an account of WSB's various methods
>
for combating verbal control, that "Burroughs also refuses to correct
>
typographical errors in his prose....These errata comprise further
>
assaults on verbal control." But this claim may have to be revised,
>
depending on who is responsible for the changes in NL.
Do you
have the biblio info for the article above? I'd like to see the
source
for the line you quoted. Maybe Michael can elaborate, if he's out
there?
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:57:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)
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Jeff
Taylor wrote:
>
> On
Sun, 25 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
>
> places)). The importance of Burroughs' citing Wittgenstein can be
>
> overlooked, however the importance of Burroughs' notion of the prerecorded
>
> universe cannot. It stands along with Hassan I Sabbah's "Nothing is
True.
>
> Everything is Permitted" and the Algebra of Need as one of the
dominant
>
> metaphysical/philosophical notions in his oeuvre. It's also one of the
>
> trickiest to puzzle out.
>
>
You know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often
> in
connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much
>
more organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not
>
least because N also cited HiS's motto:
>
Jeff
and Neil,
while
my philosophy of language background is way too dusty to keep up
with
y'all (and i was more into Kenneth Burke than Wittgenstein) i must
say i
absolutely love your discussions. each
post makes my head spin
around
at least once. after i have let a post
spin my head four or five
times i
promptly delete it and wait for another headspinner to come our
way. looking forward to more.
seriously,
i feel that embedded in the writings of William Burroughs is
an
unindexed briefing of one of the finest philosopher's of language of
the
century. i hope that the efforts y'all
put into the study of such
things
will eventually percolate to where he is discussed across the
University
and not just in a few renegade literature courses.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:05:49 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy"
<nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Changes in Naked Lunch text
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980123042959.570757087A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
MIME-Version:
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On Fri,
23 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor wrote:
>
> > xlvi/xviii.9fr btm Occam
--> Ockham
Apparently
he inherited this from Wittgenstein, who spells William of
Ockam's
name "Occam" in proposition 3.328 of the Tractatus: "If a sign
is
not
necessary then it is meaningless. That is the meaning of Occam's
razor."
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:15:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
MIME-version:
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You
know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not
Beat," are
really
very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
whole
"Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very productive, I
think.
It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
really
"Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in other ways,
too,
but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
itself
is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas? *laughing
even
harder* Ik hou van je!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:42:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: a poem and a question
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was
this poem by ginsberg? was it? what's the name? i love it, someone please
tell
me.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:01:03 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: john boggs <jaboggs@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: a poem and a question
Content-Type:
text/plain
>
>was
this poem by ginsberg? was it? what's the name? i love it, someone
please
>tell
me.
>
i wrote
it last night and was rather hoping it would please someone. i
am
still blushing from the comparison to allen ginsberg! ;->
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:55:55 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah,
blah...
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Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not
Beat," are
>
really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
>
whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very
productive, I
>
think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
>
really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in other
ways,
>
too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
>
itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas?
*laughing
>
even harder* Ik hou van je!
All
Beat-Les,
Let's
just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
'nuff said'?
I love you all and
Sara especially,
enough to get my ass
to Ohio within
14 days or so.
Thomas,
loving his life out
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:00:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: New York Times
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Thanks
Bill for your letter to NY Times Magazine supporting AG's
accomplishments. I also noticed that in the today's special
section on
New
York, 100 Years, Alfred Kazin's article on great New York writers
conveniently
omitted AG.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 17:32:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah,
blah...
In-Reply-To: <34CBB4EB.6DCA@skynet.be>
MIME-version:
1.0
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See
what I mean? The dude's going "on the road" for me! It just doesn't
get any
more Beat than that!!! *laughing hysterically again* Now
"everything"
has happened on this list....
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Sun,
25 Jan 1998, Thomas Van Moortel wrote:
>
Sara Feustle wrote:
>
>
>
> You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not
Beat," are
>
> really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
>
> whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very
productive, I
>
> think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
>
> really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in
other ways,
>
> too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
>
> itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas?
*laughing
>
> even harder* Ik hou van je!
>
>
All Beat-Les,
>
>
Let's just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
>
> 'nuff said'?
>
> I love you all and
Sara especially,
> enough to get my ass
to Ohio within
> 14 days or so.
>
>
Thomas,
>
loving his life out
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:05:11 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: a place for aspiring writers?
Content-type:
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Since
so many people on this listserv write, and there have been a few
requests
for places to publish, I thought I'd pass this link along:
http://www.worldwidemagazines.com/literary2.html
Apparently
a number of the magazines listed here encourage unpublished writers
and
poets, and are actively seeking submissions all the time.
Few
presses were available for avant garde and non-traditional stuff like Beat
writers
wrote in the Fifties. One thing I always really liked about them was
their
penchant for making little chapbooks, mimeographs of their works (who
remembers
mimeos?) Seems like Brautigan was especially big on that. I've seen
people
in recent days who've done the same thing, at PIP or Kinko's, then
stood
on street corners or found shelf space in record stores, where they gave
their
work away, partly to share beauty, and partly just to be read.
I'd
love to experience something as earth-shattering as the reading at the Six
Gallery,
but where are the poets? Surely we have enough to rage against today
as the
Beat Generation did.
By the
way, I'm not a poet, but I like it, as I've stated before in posts.
Seems
to me, though, that most readings around here happen at Barnes&Noble or
something
and are merchandising tie-ins to new books.
Publish
or perish, or, failing that, organize a reading, and invite me!
Incognito
in L.A.,
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:17:31 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: ik hou van je (was Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Thomas
Van Moortel wrote:
>
> Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
>
> You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is "not
Beat," are
>
> really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out. The
>
> whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually very
productive, I
>
> think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
>
> really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive in
other ways,
>
> too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The story
>
> itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right, Thomas?
*laughing
>
> even harder* Ik hou van je!
>
>
All Beat-Les,
>
>
Let's just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
>
> 'nuff said'?
>
> I love you all and
Sara especially,
> enough to get my ass
to Ohio within
> 14 days or so.
>
>
Thomas,
>
loving his life out
ik hou
van je broncos
gypsy
davey
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 01:32:16 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
MIME-Version:
1.0
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David
Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>
Thomas Van Moortel wrote:
>
>
>
> Sara Feustle wrote:
>
> >
>
> > You know, discussions about what is "Beat" and what is
"not Beat," are
>
> > really very non-Beat.... Pardon my non-Beatness in pointing that out.
The
>
> > whole "Kerouac 'no poet'?!?!?!" discussion was actually
very productive, I
>
> > think. It lead to a lot of thinking, discussion, and a lot of really,
>
> > really "Beat" emotional spewing. It was highly productive
in other ways,
>
> > too, but that's a looooooonnng story. *laughing hysterically* The
story
>
> > itself is actually as "Beat" as you can get... Right,
Thomas? *laughing
>
> > even harder* Ik hou van je!
>
>
>
> All Beat-Les,
>
>
>
> Let's just say: ik hou van je is Dutch for 'I love you'.
>
>
>
>
'nuff said'?
>
>
>
> I love you
all and Sara especially,
>
> enough to
get my ass to Ohio within
>
> 14 days or
so.
>
>
>
> Thomas,
>
>
loving his life out
>
> ik
hou van je broncos
>
>
gypsy davey
Hey
Davey,
Pass
interference against the Bronco's & gypsy Davey!
TRUE
LOVE on a beat-l and you're watching the Super Bowl?
Do you
know where Belgium is, as opposed to Ohio?
Favre
to the end zone
Go
Packers !
I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
--Thomas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:56:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
writes:
<< I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
--Thomas >>
Sara,
Thomas... get a room, willya?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:13:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: ik hou van je (was Re: Beat vs. Non-Beat, blah, blah,
blah...
In-Reply-To: <34CBD61B.2280@midusa.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> ik
hou van je broncos
>
>
gypsy davey
>
Fick die Broncos, die Packers werden
gewinnen!!! Actually, I
could
give a rat's ass about either team... my poor Cowboys really sucked
this
year.... *sniff* Football, there's a beat topic... I wonder if there
is any
footage of Kerouac playing football....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:16:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
In-Reply-To: <34CBD990.3A82@skynet.be>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
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I'm not
watching the damn Superbowl, I'm thinking about Thomas and reading
medieval
German literature! The Packers will
prevail, whoooo-hoooooo!!!
>
Hey Davey,
>
>
Pass interference against the Bronco's & gypsy Davey!
>
>
TRUE LOVE on a beat-l and you're watching the Super Bowl?
>
> Do
you know where Belgium is, as opposed to Ohio?
>
> Favre
to the end zone
> Go Packers !
>
> I
LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
>
>
--Thomas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:18:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
In-Reply-To: <56ca234c.34cbdf26@aol.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
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Well,
actually, IDDHI... heh-heh-heh.... give us a couple days...
heh-heh-heh....
Heh-heh-heh... We'll spare you the details...
*lol*
On Sun,
25 Jan 1998, IDDHI wrote:
> In
a message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
>
>
<< I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
>
>
--Thomas >>
>
>
Sara, Thomas... get a room, willya?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:40:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type:
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In a
message dated 25-Jan-98 5:21:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
writes:
<<
Well, actually, IDDHI... heh-heh-heh.... give us a couple days...
heh-heh-heh.... Heh-heh-heh... We'll spare you the details... *lol*
>>
Thinking
of writing a long dissertation titled, "The Tyrrany of Stupidity: Why
Newsgroups
Don't Work."
Any
thoughts?
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:36:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7BIT
MIME-Version:
1.0 (WebTV)
You and
I must be the only ones not watching the game.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:49:46 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Creeeeeeep <Creeeeeeep@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type:
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I'm not
either
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 02:52:03 +0100
Reply-To: thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Thomas Van Moortel
<thomas.van.moortel@SKYNET.BE>
Organization:
None
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
MIME-Version:
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IDDHI
wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 25-Jan-98 5:21:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU writes:
>
>
<< Well, actually, IDDHI... heh-heh-heh.... give us a couple days...
> heh-heh-heh.... Heh-heh-heh... We'll spare you the details... *lol*
> >>
>
>
Thinking of writing a long dissertation titled, "The Tyrrany of Stupidity:
Why
>
Newsgroups Don't Work."
>
>
Any thoughts?
> MD
Actually,
I was just thinking about the Bible quote from Pulp Fiction
"...and
the tyrrany of evil men".
Newsgroups
probably don't work cos it just ain't worth it anytime
you
post something you can be a 100% sure somebody's gonna be offended
or is
gonna bitch about beat-l or nor beat-l.
Have a
fucking sense of humor. But then, I'm
in love...
So
shoot me.
--Thomas.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:17:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Beauty and Ugliness on Beat-L...
In-Reply-To: <34CBEC42.242C@skynet.be>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
Actually, I was just thinking about the Bible quote from Pulp Fiction
>
"...and the tyrrany of evil men".
>
Newsgroups probably don't work cos it just ain't worth it anytime
>
you post something you can be a 100% sure somebody's gonna be offended
> or
is gonna bitch about beat-l or nor beat-l.
>
Have a fucking sense of humor. But
then, I'm in love...
>
> So
shoot me.
>
Well said, my love... I was about to
reply to that bit of
snottiness
when I saw that you already had...
IDDHI:
I mean, really, man, don't y'all know
that pettiness and a total
lack of
humor is as anti-Beat as Rush Limbaugh??? You're the one that
opened
that can of worms, so don't be getting pissed off at us!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:19:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
Content-type:
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Content-transfer-encoding:
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In a
message dated 25-Jan-98 6:02:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
writes:
<<
Have a fucking sense of humor. >>
I have
a great sense of humor. I just don't happen to see what's humorous (if
that's
your intention) about the personal correspondence between two people
that
should be done by back channel.
Retitle
your posts to read something like "personal bullshit sent to waste
listserv
space," and I'll be able to delete them without reading them and will
have no
comment whatsoever.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:21:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Beauty and Ugliness on Beat-L...
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Sara
Feustle wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Actually, I was just thinking about the Bible quote from Pulp Fiction
>
> "...and the tyrrany of evil men".
>
> Newsgroups probably don't work cos it just ain't worth it anytime
>
> you post something you can be a 100% sure somebody's gonna be offended
>
> or is gonna bitch about beat-l or nor beat-l.
>
> Have a fucking sense of humor. But
then, I'm in love...
>
>
>
> So shoot me.
>
>
>
> Well said, my love... I was about to
reply to that bit of
>
snottiness when I saw that you already had...
>
> IDDHI:
> I mean, really, man, don't y'all know
that pettiness and a total
>
lack of humor is as anti-Beat as Rush Limbaugh??? You're the one that
>
opened that can of worms, so don't be getting pissed off at us!
OR---
Defense
broncos DEFENSE!!!!!
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:28:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beauty and Ugliness on Beat-L...
In-Reply-To: <34CBF31E.55C5@midusa.net>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
OR---
>
Defense broncos DEFENSE!!!!!
>
dbr
>
*rolling on the floor* How's that damn
game going, anyway?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:35:51 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Beaver-Seitz <hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: ik hou van je (was Re: Beat vs.
Non-Beat, blah, blah, blah...
Content-Type:
text/plain
>ik
hou van je broncos
>
>gypsy
davey
>
hahahahaha...
-greg
ps- i
would have really liked to have seen broncos v. 49ers.. the two
beatest
cities battling it out with the ol' pigskin...
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:06:51 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: crap and humor
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
so if i
think posts are drivel and not very interesting i don't have a
sense
of humor, gee, i just thought they were boring posts, i didn't
get
there was some super secret humor to them. i sure didn't follow
that,
was it by chopping up the posts and crappy remarks until something
of
intelligence emerges. This most be all
my fault, or i aren't beat
enouf.
i should of realized i wanted to hear
about oj, clinton, di, or
beef
suits it snot crap, it hot freedom of
speech issues, unavailable
to us
except on such escoteric shows such as hard copy. well, to make
this a
legel eagle post, if anyone wants an rivercity reunion program,
shoot
me your snail and i will mail one (black and white) i have
hundreds,
oh use back channel. if you please.
pitch
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 22:09:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Organization:
AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Commodify Your Dissent
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
Sara,
Thomas... this "bud's" for you:
=======================================
Capitalism
is changing, obviously and drastically. From the moneyed pages of
the
Wall Street Journal to TV commercials for airlines and photocopiers we
hear
every day about the new order's globe-spanning, cyber-accumulating ways.
But our
notion about what's wrong with American life and how the figures
responsible
are to be confronted haven't changed much in thirty years. Call
it, for
convenience, the "countercultural idea." It holds that the paramount
ailment
of our society is conformity, a malady that has variously been
described
as over-organization, bureaucracy, homogeneity, hierarchy,
logocentrism,
technocracy, the Combine, the Apollonian. We all know what it is
and
what it does. It transforms humanity into "organization man," into
"the
man in
the gray flannel suit." It is "Moloch whose mind is pure
machinery,"
the
"incomprehensible prison" that consumes "brains and
imagination." It is
artifice,
starched shirts, tailfins, carefully mowed lawns, and always,
always,
the consciousness of impending nuclear destruction. It is a stiff,
militaristic
order that seeks to suppress instinct, to forbid sex and
pleasure,
to deny basic human impulses and individuality, to enforce through a
rigid
uniformity a meaningless plastic consumerism.
The
patron saints of the countercultural idea are, of course, the Beats, whose
frenzied
style and merry alienation still maintain a powerful grip on the
American
imagination. Even forty years after the publication of On the Road,
the
works of Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs remain the sine qua non of
dissidence,
the model for aspiring poets, rock stars, or indeed anyone who
feels
vaguely artistic or alienated. That frenzied sensibility of pure
experience,
life on the edge, immediate gratification, and total freedom from
moral
restraint, which the Beats first propounded back in those heady days
when
suddenly everyone could have their own TV and powerful V-8, has stuck
with us
through all the intervening years and become something of a permanent
American
style. Go to any poetry reading and you can see a string of junior
Kerouacs
go through the routine, upsetting cultural hierarchies by pushing
themselves
to the limit, straining for that gorgeous moment of original vice
when
Allen Ginsberg first read "Howl" in 1955 and the patriarchs of our
fantasies
recoiled in shock. The Gap may have since claimed Ginsberg and USA
Today
may run feature stories about the brilliance of the beloved Kerouac, but
the
rebel race continues today regardless, with ever-heightening shit-
references
calculated to scare Jesse Helms, talk about sex and smack that is
supposed
to bring the electricity of real life, and ever-more determined
defiance
of the repressive rules and mores of the American 1950s--rules and
mores
that by now we know only from movies.
But one
hardly has to go to a poetry reading to see the countercultural idea
acted
out. Its frenzied ecstasies have long since become an official aesthetic
of
consumer society, a monotheme of mass as well as adversarial culture. Turn
on the
TV and there it is instantly: the unending drama of consumer unbound
and in
search of an ever-heightened good time, the inescapable rock `n' roll
soundtrack,
dreadlocks and ponytails bounding into Taco Bells, a drunken,
swinging-camera
epiphany of tennis shoes, outlaw soda pops, and mind-bending
dandruff
shampoos. Corporate America, it turns out, no longer speaks in the
voice
of oppressive order that it did when Ginsberg moaned in 1956 that Time
magazine
was
always
telling me about responsibility. Business-
men are
serious. Movie producers are serious.
Everybody's
serious but me.
Nobody
wants you to think they're serious today, least of all Time Warner. On
the
contrary: the Culture Trust is now our leader in the Ginsbergian search
for
kicks upon kicks. Corporate America is not an oppressor but a sponsor of
fun,
provider of lifestyle accoutrements, facilitator of carnival, our slang-
speaking
partner in the quest for that ever-more apocalyptic orgasm. The
countercultural
idea has become capitalist orthodoxy, its hunger for
transgression
upon transgression now perfectly suited to an economic-cultural
regime
that runs on ever-faster cyclings of the new; its taste for self-
fulfillment
and its intolerance for the confines of tradition now permitting
vast
latitude in consuming practices and lifestyle experimentation.
As
countercultural rebellion becomes corporate ideology, even the beloved
Buddhism
of the Beats wins a place on the executive bookshelf. In The Leader
as
Martial Artist (1993), Arnold Mindell advises men of commerce in the ways
of the
Tao, mastery of which he likens, of course, to surfing. For Mindell's
Zen
businessman, as for the followers of Tom Peters, the world is a wildly
chaotic
place of opportunity, navigable only to an enlightened "leader" who
can
discern the "timespirits" at work behind the scenes. In terms Peters
himself
might use were he a more more meditative sort of inspiration
professional,
Mindell explains that "the wise facilitator" doesn't seek to
prevent
the inevitable and random clashes between "conflicting field
spirits,"
but to
anticipate such bouts of disorder and profit thereby.
Contemporary
corporate fantasy imagines a world of ceaseless, turbulent
change,
of centers that ecstatically fail to hold, of joyous extinction for
the
craven gray-flannel creature of the past. Businessmen today decorate the
walls
of their offices not with portraits of President Eisenhower and emblems
of
suburban order, but with images of extreme athletic daring, with sayings
about
"diversity" and "empowerment" and "thinking outside
the box." They
theorize
their world not in the bar car of the commuter train, but in weepy
corporate
retreats at which they beat their tom-toms and envision themselves
as part
of the great avant-garde tradition of edge-livers, risk-takers, and
ass-kickers.
Their world is a place not of sublimation and conformity, but of
"leadership"
and bold talk about defying the herd. And there is nothing this
new
enlightened species of businessman despises more than "rules" and
"reason."
The prominent culture-warriors of the right may believe that the
counterculture
was capitalism's undoing, but the antinomian businessmen know
better.
"One of the t-shirt slogans of the sixties read, `Question
authority,'"
the authors of Reengineering the Corporation write. "Process
owners
might buy their reengineering team members the nineties version:
`Question
assumptions.'"
The new
businessman quite naturally gravitates to the slogans and sensibility
of the
rebel sixties to express his understanding of the new Information
World.
He is led in what one magazine calls "the business revolution" by the
office-park
subversives it hails as "business activists," "change
agents," and
"corporate
radicals." He speaks to his comrades through commercials like the
one for
"Warp," a type of IBM computer operating system, in which an electric
guitar
soundtrack and psychedelic video effects surround hip executives with
earrings
and hairdos who are visibly stunned by the product's gnarly 'tude
(It's a
"totally cool way to run your computer," read the product's print
ads).
He understands the world through Fast Company, a successful new magazine
whose
editors take their inspiration from Hunter S. Thompson and whose stories
describe
such things as a "dis-organization" that inhabits an
"anti-office"
where
"all vestiges of hierarchy have disappeared" or a computer scientist
who
is also
"a rabble rouser, an agent provocateur, a product of the 1960s who
never
lost his activist fire or democratic values." He is what sociologists
Paul
Leinberger and Bruce Tucker have called "The New Individualist," the
new
and
improved manager whose arty worldview and creative hip derive directly
from
his formative sixties days. The one thing this new executive is
definitely
not is Organization Man, the hyper-rational counter of beans,
attender
of church, and wearer of stiff hats. In television commercials,
through
which the new American businessman presents his visions and self-
understanding
to the public, perpetual revolution and the gospel of rule-
breaking
are the orthodoxy of the day. You only need to watch for a few
minutes
before you see one of these slogans and understand the grip of
antinomianism
over the corporate mind:
Sometimes
You Gotta Break the Rules --Burger King
If You
Don't Like the Rules, Change Them --WXRT-FM
The
Rules Have Changed --Dodge
The Art
of Changing --Swatch
There's
no one way to do it. --Levi's
This is
different. Different is good. --Arby's
Just
Different From the Rest --Special Export beer
The
Line Has Been Crossed: The Revolutionary New Supra --Toyota
Resist
the Usual --the slogan of both Clash Clear Malt and Young & Rubicam
Innovate
Don't Imitate --Hugo Boss
Chart
Your Own Course --Navigator Cologne
It
separates you from the crowd --Vision Cologne
In
most, the commercial message is driven home with the vanguard iconography
of the
rebel: screaming guitars, whirling cameras, and startled old timers
who, we
predict, will become an increasingly indispensable prop as consumers
require
ever-greater assurances that, Yes! You are a rebel! Just look at how
offended
they are!
<end
excerpt>
By
THOMAS FRANK and MATT WEILAND
(C)
1997 The Baffler Literary Magazine, Inc. All rights reserved. ISBN:
0-393-31673-4
=================================
If
anyone wants the entire text of this review, email me directly.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:45:02 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Journal Night Thoughts
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Journal
Night Thoughts
by A.G.
NY January 1961
In bed
on my green purple pink
yellow orange bolivian blanket,
the
clock tick, my back against the wall
--
staring into black circled eyes magician
man's bearded glance and story
the
kitchen spun in a wheel of vertigo,
the eye
in the center of the moving
mandala -- the
eye in the hand
the eye in the asshole
serpent eating or
vomiting its tail
-- the
blank air a solid wall revolving
around my retina --
The
wheel of jewels and fire i saw moving
vaster than my head in Peru
Band circling in band and a black
hole of Calcutta thru which
I stared at my Atman
without a body
--
The
Giotto window on Boston giving
to a scene in Bibled Palestine
A golden star
and the flight to Egypt
in an instant
now
Come
true again -- the Kabbala sign
in the vomit on the floor --
>From
a window on Riverside Drive,
one boat moving slowly
up the flowing river, small autos
crawling on Hudson Thruway
a plash of white snow on
the Palisades
and a small white park etched
by bare thin branches
with black birds aflutter in the
frosty underbrush
Riverside
Drive, as in Brueghel
a girl in red coat
-- a footprint, a lone
passerby
on sidewalk under apartment wall --
and a
blimp from the war floating in the air
over the edge of the city --
Wagner's
last echoes, and Baudelaire
inscribing his oceanic page
of confessions
Ah love
is so sweet in the Springtime
Amor Vincit Omnia
Eliot's
voice clanging over the sky
on upper Broadway
"Only
thru Time is Time conquered"
I am
the answer : I will swallow my
vomit and be naked --
A heavy
rain, the plick of a raindrop
shattered on the fire escape
rail
at the level of my eye
--
This
woman is a serpent goddess accepting
the proposition of a bunch of flowers
found in the Christmas snow
on Mad.Ave. dusk uptown --
We'll
rush around in a redcross psychic
ambulance past the Museum of
Natural History
delivering Anxiety mushrooms to the
dancing
red gummed skeletons
their lifted legs are
crossed
they wear iron crowns
The cat
vomited his canned food with a
mix of inch-long worms
that arched up over the
dread plop --
I threw
it in the garbage bag aghast --
cockroach
crawls up the bath tub Yosemite wall,
rust in
the hot water faucet, a sweet smell
in the mouldy chicken soup,
and little black beings in the old bag
of flour
on the pantry shelf last week
Natchez,
he was saying with his head one side
of the center of the wheel
of Vertigo --
burned babies in the blaze of a fiery
house
sending them back to the Sun
--
They drank a black elixir, and threw
it up
To have the serpent
intertwined
in their eyeballs --
One man was born with genitals all
over
his body -- there were
15,000,000
Indians in North America then --
The mushroom image in
the Spiro Mound
The battle with the two-headed
caterpillar big as a house
with waving lobster
claws --
Here is
the Homunculus wavering in the brain,
the aggregate of ignorant patterns
looking like
Denny Dimwit
The genitals are larger than the head
--
huge thumbs, and the crab
image
of the back of the
mouth --
'Twas a
sunflower-monkey on Neptune
I imagined over the radio --
Somebody's
got to make a break and contact
Khruschev in the Noosphere --
because I took a sick crap near a
skull
with long red hair in a
coastal desert
gravepit by the
Peruvian Pacific --
across the road, new green fields and
hut trees
and now
I'm paranoiac every day about the cops
(& god & universe)
as if it were all being tape recorded from my
skull to project the
Kali Yuga --
He saw
electric wires on the floor -- He saw
the channel that heard
yr mind
thru the music
--
I saw
the flower, slowly awakening its petals --
My face
in the hot dog stand mirror
harried to be here again
to see myself alive on Broadway afraid
I'm
in a forgotten movie where I
die
not knowing my name --
The old
man came out of his room Carpet
slippers, getting bald
with
half a sheaf of indecipherable arrangements
of words in singsong
"rain in heart by heat a
fool be clang"
Cerebral stroke stiff
hand
His tongue stopped forever
but his mind went on
in what
universe?
I
dreamt I had to destroy the human
universe to be Messiah --
My toes
wiggle on the bed, the breast has
eyes and mouth,
the belly eye & dumb lips and the
loins
a blind one waiting --
a big
fart gave the void a smelly minute --
The
color of the wind? It could be the same
the color of the water --
Where
does rain come from? Nice to look up
at the stars
in Northport --
'Er
something. Uh-huh.
I could
see the hairs at the end of his nose.
We were
involved in a great tragedy together --
I
walked alone, in the street, by myself
with no God to turn to
But what I Am --
who can create baby
universes
in the mouth of the void
--
Spurt them out of my mind forever
to fill the Unimaginable with its
separate being --
So I
left behind a message to the Consciousness
before I
disappeared --
I wrote it on a stone & left it in
Oklahoma
in that Indian
mound,
drew a picture of a serpent crossing
in
and out of its folds like a
scaly
swastika -- a green dragon
with ancient fangs
Speak
up and tell yr secret, is it a
living animal out there your
afraid of still -- ?
And my mother's skull not yet white
in the darkness, a glimpse of
that forgotten
creature agape
at dirty nothing -- GO
BACK !
I come
in the ass of my beloved, I lay back
with my cock in the air to be kissed
--
I
prostrate my sphincter with my eyes in
the pillow, my legs are thrown up
over your
shoulder,
I feel
your buttocks with my hand
a cock throbs I lay still my
mouth in my ass --
I kiss
the hidden mouth, I have a third eye
I paint
the pupils on my palm, and an
eyelash that winks --
************
Marginal
Poem - Journal Night Thoughts
by A.G.
Sept.
28, 1964
Lower
East Side
2
Street
High
*
W/Harry
Smith
*
Optical
Phenomena
*
Yage
in
Pucallpa
*
Remembering
Leary's
Bedroom
Harvard
*
Jack
Hallucinating
*
Out
Robt.
Lowell's
Window
*
Unsteadily
Walking
in
Manhattan
Near
Where
Poe
Wrote
The
Raven
*
Visiting
Dorothy
Norman
*
Psylocibin
Taxi
*
The
Citipati
(Tibetan
Bones)
*
Housecat
in the
Slums
*
Smith's
Anthropological
Gossip
*
Penfield's
Homunculus
*
Ditty
Taped
at Jack's
*
Historic
Paranoia
From
Boston
To
Lima
*
Back in
Mexico
City
*
A
Retired
Schoolteacher
In
Newark:
Visit
To
Friend
of the
Family
*
LSD
Roars
*
Gaga
&
Dialogue
W/
Lafcadio
*
N20 at
the
Dentist
*
Mescaline
Mouth
Ejaculations
Of Me
*
Poesy
*
Death
Concsciousness
*
Kaddish
Completed
"You're
not done
with your
moether
yet."
Sd/Elise
C.
*
Come To
This
End.
**************************************************
typed
for discussion purposes only by dbr
This
second poem in Planet News is quite an abrupt shift from "Who will
take
over the Universe?" It is
political only in the sense that the
personal
is the political. It is intraspection
on intraspection
entwisted
cyclonically like a complete unknown visionary known to all
spaketh
these words.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 23:19:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: a place for aspiring writers?
In-Reply-To: <c29cf6cf.34cbc529@aol.com>
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In high
school, quite of few of my friends and I put out homemade little
magazines
or chapbooks. We'd put in some cool graphics thanks to our
computer,
run em off and give them out, underground, since they werent
really
allowed in our school. You had to know someone to get one. It was
fun
while it lasted.
~Nancy
On Sun,
25 Jan 1998, IDDHI wrote:
>
Since so many people on this listserv write, and there have been a few
>
requests for places to publish, I thought I'd pass this link along:
>
http://www.worldwidemagazines.com/literary2.html
>
>
Apparently a number of the magazines listed here encourage unpublished writers
>
and poets, and are actively seeking submissions all the time.
>
>
Few presses were available for avant garde and non-traditional stuff like Beat
>
writers wrote in the Fifties. One thing I always really liked about them was
>
their penchant for making little chapbooks, mimeographs of their works (who
>
remembers mimeos?) Seems like Brautigan was especially big on that. I've seen
>
people in recent days who've done the same thing, at PIP or Kinko's, then
>
stood on street corners or found shelf space in record stores, where they gave
>
their work away, partly to share beauty, and partly just to be read.
>
>
I'd love to experience something as earth-shattering as the reading at the Six
>
Gallery, but where are the poets? Surely we have enough to rage against today
> as
the Beat Generation did.
>
> By
the way, I'm not a poet, but I like it, as I've stated before in posts.
>
Seems to me, though, that most readings around here happen at Barnes&Noble
or
>
something and are merchandising tie-ins to new books.
>
>
Publish or perish, or, failing that, organize a reading, and invite me!
>
>
Incognito in L.A.,
>
Maggie
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:41:20 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
i
second that, Maggie. really Sara &
Thomas, why do you feel it necessary
to
parade your personal correspondence in front of 250 people? after all
the
complaints about what's appropos and what's not - this surely should be
obvious. and no i'm not humorless or opposed to love,
quite the opposite -
but i
don't think that i or anyone else on the list got on it to read "As
Sara's
& Thomas' World Turns".
ciao,
sherri
-----Original
Message-----
From:
IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Sunday, January 25, 1998 6:28 PM
Subject:
Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
>In
a message dated 25-Jan-98 6:02:25 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be
writes:
>
><<
Have a fucking sense of humor. >>
>
>I
have a great sense of humor. I just don't happen to see what's humorous
(if
>that's
your intention) about the personal correspondence between two people
>that
should be done by back channel.
>
>Retitle
your posts to read something like "personal bullshit sent to waste
>listserv
space," and I'll be able to delete them without reading them and
will
>have
no comment whatsoever.
>
>MD
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 20:41:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: crap and humor
Here! Here!
patty
-----Original
Message-----
From:
Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Sunday, January 25, 1998 7:25 PM
Subject:
crap and humor
>so
if i think posts are drivel and not very interesting i don't have a
>sense
of humor, gee, i just thought they were boring posts, i didn't
>get
there was some super secret humor to them. i sure didn't follow
>that,
was it by chopping up the posts and crappy remarks until something
>of
intelligence emerges. This most be all
my fault, or i aren't beat
>enouf.
i should of realized i wanted to hear
about oj, clinton, di, or
>beef
suits it snot crap, it hot freedom of
speech issues, unavailable
>to
us except on such escoteric shows such as hard copy. well, to make
>this
a legel eagle post, if anyone wants an rivercity reunion program,
>shoot
me your snail and i will mail one (black and white) i have
>hundreds,
oh use back channel. if you please.
>pitch
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:46:33 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: crap and humor/beat not beat
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yo,
homegirl, go.
i was
beginning to feel brow BEATen.
Patricia
Elliott wrote:
> so
if i think posts are drivel and not very interesting i don't have a
> sense
of humor, gee, i just thought they were boring posts, i didn't
>
get there was some super secret humor to them. i sure didn't follow
>
that, was it by chopping up the posts and crappy remarks until something
> of
intelligence emerges. This most be all
my fault, or i aren't beat
>
enouf. i should of realized i wanted to
hear about oj, clinton, di, or
>
beef suits it snot crap, it hot freedom
of speech issues, unavailable
> to
us except on such escoteric shows such as hard copy. well, to make
>
this a legel eagle post, if anyone wants an rivercity reunion program,
>
shoot me your snail and i will mail one (black and white) i have
>
hundreds, oh use back channel. if you please.
>
pitch
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:56:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
In-Reply-To: <c68b5ed2.34cbfe52@aol.com>
MIME-version:
1.0
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Well,
IDDHI, as Goethe once said, "Leck mich am Arsch!"
But
seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
literature?
Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
Sorrows
of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat. It
is as
beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
anyone else
read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
--Sara
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:28:32 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: re; it's beat, it's love, davey isn't
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>
>
Subject:
> Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
> Date:
> Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:56:04 EST
> From:
> IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>
>
> In
a message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
>
>
<< I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
>
>
--Thomas >>
>
>
Sara, Thomas... get a room, willya?
i
second that emotion!!!!!!!!
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:04:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: re; it's beat, it's love, davey
isn't
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Cathy
Wilkie wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Subject:
>
> Re: It's beat, it's love, Davey Isn't
>
> Date:
>
> Sun, 25 Jan 1998 19:56:04
EST
>
> From:
>
> IDDHI <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
>
>
>
>
>
> In a message dated 25-Jan-98 4:44:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>
> thomas.van.moortel@skynet.be writes:
>
>
>
> << I LOVE SARA FEUSTLE !
>
>
>
> --Thomas >>
>
>
>
> Sara, Thomas... get a room, willya?
>
> i
second that emotion!!!!!!!!
>
>
cathy
I
thought the whole exchange was sorta cute ya know. I can see if the
saga
became a daily thing it would get old but unless I missed something
during
my hospitalization (entirely possible) these interactions aren't
quite
to the level of soap opera - daily monotonous mesmerization - yet.
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 00:03:41 -0800
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From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Journal Night Thoughts
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>
David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>
This second poem in Planet News is quite an abrupt shift from "Who will
>
take over the Universe?" It is
political only in the sense that the
>
personal is the political. It is
intraspection on intraspection
>
entwisted cyclonically like a complete unknown visionary known to all
>
spaketh these words.
There's
so much in this poem that it hard to find a beginning topic for
discussion. Agreed that the poem moves to the personal
and the
visionary,
a cosmic universe as opposed to a political one Things that
stand
out to me are: that it begins and ends
in bed--I would almost say
that in
the love of the human body at the end, the poet finds the
redemption
that eludes him in the visions in the poem.
Many of the
images
are probably terrifying, serpents, man with genitals larger than
his
head, electrical wires in the brain, and there's the fear of death,
"to
see myself alive on Broadway afraid I'm
in a
forgotten movie where I die
not
knowing my name"
"is
it a living animal out there you're afraid of still
And my
mother's skull not yet white in the darkness"
There
are also a lot of mystic and psychological images in between, many
entangled
in serpents and vomit:
"the
eye in the center of the moving mandala--the
eye in
the hand the eye in the asshole
serpent
eating or vomiting its tail"
"the
Kabbala sign in the vomit on the floor"
"Eliot's
voice clanging over the sky on upper Broadway
'Only
thru time is time conquered'
I am
the answer: I will swallow my vomit and be naked"
"This
woman is a serpent goddess accepting
the
propitiation of a bunch of flowers
found
in the Christmas snow"
"The
cat vomited his canned food with a
mix of
inch-long worms
that
arched up over the dread plop"
"They
drank a black elixir, and threw it up
to have
the serpent intwined in their eyeballs"
In the
midst of all the images of evil and filth, we also have the poet,
the
artist, creating his own salvation in the act of writing the poem:
"I
walked alone, in the street, by myself
with no
God to turn to
But what
I Am--
who can
create baby universes
in the
mouth of the void--
spurt
them out of my mind forever
to fill
the Unimaginable with its
separate
being--
So I
left behind a message to the Consciousness
before
I disappeared--
I wrote
it on a stone & left it in Oklahoma
in the
Indian mound..."
In this
poem are many of the images that make AG's poetry visionary,
prophetic:
"As
if it were all being tape recorded from my skull
to
project the Kali Yuga" [the last age in the Hindu cycle before "cosmic
apocalyptic
destruction]
So what
does the poet do in the midst of a horrific,
apocalyptic
vision--he writes the poem; he grounds himself in the
experience
of love with another that comforts him.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:47:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: scope
Once
again, Beat-l is not a chat room.
Messages about the superbowl and
personal
relationships have no place on this list.
I have to ask
everyone
to respect the scope of the list as defined in the original
welcome
message.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:13:57 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: scope
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Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
>
Once again, Beat-l is not a chat room.
Messages about the superbowl and
>
personal relationships have no place on this list. I have to ask
>
everyone to respect the scope of the list as defined in the original
>
welcome message.
This is
a good point. And I completely forgot
that we do have access to
a chat
room for times when some of us are drawn to compulsively chat.
Paul,
my only problem is that I lost the information on KeroChat. Could
you
re-post it at your convenience. Perhaps
if many of us who tend to
get
chatty would simply go to the chat room more often - it will be
easier
to maintain the "scope" within the parameters suggested by Bill
the
owner.
I'm
particularly guilty yesterday but am not dwelling on it. I confess
and I
typed that long ass Ginsberg poem for discussion onto the list to
make up
for my crimes and misdemeanors. Maybe
others who have been
excessively
chatty could also become active in participating on a few
things
within the clear scope of the List.
just a
couple thoughts from KS,
david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:21:33 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Greg Beaver-Seitz
<hookooekoo@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Literary Magazines and Ginsberg Poem
Content-Type:
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Like
the idiot I am, I deleted a whole bunch of messages I didn't want
to..
Could someone repost the web address of that site about literary
magazines
which accept stuff from unpublished/unknown poet/authors?
and
that poem (was it david who posted it originally?) of ginsberg's
written
in 1961??
I'd
appreciate it.
-Greg
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*
Ginsberg etc.
*
*
http://members.tripod.com/~Sprayberry
*
*
Updated regularly, extensive poems, images
*
* * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:52:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Magazines, reposted
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boy, i
hope this doesn't duplicate or triplicate or grow out of control. and i
hope
it's useful information for a bunch of you
Here it
is again: since so many people on this listserv write, and there have
been a
few requests for places to publish, I thought I'd pass this link along:
http://www.worldwidemagazines.com/literary2.html
Apparently
a number of the magazines listed here encourage unpublished writers
and
poets, and are actively seeking submissions all the time.
Few
presses were available for avant garde and non-traditional stuff like Beat
writers
wrote in the Fifties. One thing I always really liked about them was
their
penchant for making little chapbooks, mimeographs of their works (who
remembers
mimeos?) Seems like Brautigan was especially big on that. I've seen
people
in recent days who've done the same thing, at PIP or Kinko's, then
stood
on street corners or found shelf space in record stores, where they gave
their
work away, partly to share beauty, and partly just to be read.
I'd
love to experience something as earth-shattering as the reading at the Six
Gallery,
but where are the poets? Surely we have enough to rage against today
as the
Beat Generation did.
By the
way, I'm not a poet, but I like it, as I've stated before in posts.
Seems
to me, though, that most readings around here happen at Barnes&Noble or
something
and are merchandising tie-ins to new books.
Publish
or perish, or, failing that, organize a reading, and invite me!
Incognito
in L.A.,
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:07:55 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Jack Kerouac and Gian Pieretti during
1966.
In-Reply-To: <34CA1172.125A@eunet.yu>
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amici,
---
Come una pietra che rotola: la sindrome Dylan
Like a rolling stone: Dylan syndrome
article
written in italian by Luciano Ceri e Ernesto De Pascale---
[my
version of the excerpt]
Gian
Pieretti appare
Gian
Pieretti was in musical magazine
sui
giornali musicali
during
(circa) mid 60s'
dell'
epoca (1966)
sue
foto in compagnia
photographed
to enjoy Kerouac's company
di Jack
Kerouac, in
quel
periodo in Italia
Jack
Kerouac was in Italy to promote
per la
promozione di
"Big
Sur" appena tradotto;
the
book "Big Sur" just translated in italian
lo
accompagna infatti in
una
serie di incontri con
Gian
Pieretti took Jack Kerouac in several meetings
la
stampa e con il
with
the press and in front of people
pubblico
che Jack Kerouac
ebbe a
Milano, Roma e
in
Milan, Rome and Naples
Napoli,
esibendosi con
qualche
canzone mentre
Gian
Pieretti performed some songs
Kerouac
si rifornisce
while
Kerouac turned to drink
abbondatemente
di birre,
a lot
of beer
essendogli
stati proibiti
i
superalcolici. Niente
because
of the high alcohol drinks prevented.
male
come trovata
promozionale
dell'ufficio
This
advertising event was scheduled
stampa
della Mondadori,
by
Mondadori publisher of "Big Sur"
anche
se questo accredita
a Gian
Pieretti, visto che
Gian
Pieretti was recognized as a true italian beat
accanto
a lui c'e' uno
because
the closeness to a father of the beat generation
dei
capostipiti della beat
generation
letteraria, una
sorta
di patente di autenticita'
beat
francamente un po' artefatta,
con
buona pace di Kerouac che
in
peace and quiet while Keroauc was always to sober border.
appare
perennemente ai limiti
della
sobrieta'.
---
Gian
Pieretti was a singer a lot famous in the Sixties
in
Italy and this friendship with Jack Kerouac gave him
the
credit to be the first italian beat, but i think,
the
first italian beat was a woman exactly Carmen Villani.
saluti
a tutti,
Rinaldo.
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--=====================_885834475==_--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 19:50:14 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980126085150.14150A-100000@uoft02.utoledo.e du>
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Sara
wrote:
>Well,
IDDHI, as Goethe once said, "Leck mich am Arsch!"
>
>But
seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
>literature?
Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
>Sorrows
of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat. It
>is
as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
>anyone
else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
> --Sara
>
Sara
you reminded me...
before
sturm und drang i think there's an italian (venetian) poet
named
Ugo Foscolo(1778-1827), who wrote "Le ultime lettere di Jacopo Ortis"
_The
last letters of Jacopo Ortis_ about the juvenile pain
of
romantic love same period of goethe.
but
Foscolo was a young cosmopolitan poet, he was a political
refugee
(as many italians) and devasted of the suicidal death
of his
brother cuz of debt of honour. Ugo Foscolo banished by
Napoleone
Bonaparte was living the last years of his life in
London,
where he died in dire poverty at Turnham Green near
London.
Many times i pass by the house he lived in Venice,
near
the fondamenta of San Marco (Castello).
In the
beginning of spring the wall of the house are adorned
by
geraniums...near a strange tavern maybe the same he go to...
saluti,
Rinaldo.
-------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:00:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: 1957 or 1998?
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Certainly,
eternal relevance is a hallmark of the best literature and/or
philosophy.
But even knowing that, I found my mind blown today by the
relevance
of this passage from DESOLATION ANGELS:
...........................................................
My
money came and it was time to go but there's poor Irwin at midnight calling
up to
me from the garden "come on down Jack-Kee, there's a big bunch of
hipsters
and chicks from Paris in Bull's room." And just in New York or Frisco
or
anywhere there they are all hunching around in marijuana smoke, talking,
the
cool girls with thin legs in slacks, the men with goatees, all an enormous
drag
after all and at the time (1957) not even started yet officially with the
name of
"Beat Generation." To think that I had something to do with it too,
in
fact at
that very moment the manuscript of ROAD was being linotyped for
imminent
publication and I was already sick of the whole subject. Nothing can
be more
dreary than "coolness" (not Irwin's cool, or Bull's, or Simon's,
which
is
natural quietness) but postured actually secretly RIGID coolness that
covers
up the fact that the character is unable to convey anything of force or
interest,
a kind of sociological coolness soon to become a fad up into the
mass of
middleclass youth for awhile. There's even a kind of insultingness,
probably
unintentional, like when I said to the Paris girl just fresh she said
from
visiting a Persian Shah for Tiger hunt "Did you actually shoot the tiger
yourself?"
she gave me a cold look as tho I'd just tried to kiss her at the
window
of a Drama School. Or tried to trip the Huntress. Or something. But all
I could
do was sit on the of the bed in despair like Lazarus listening to
their
awful "likes" and "like you know" and "wow crazy"
and "a wig, man" "a
real
gas"-- All this was about to sprout out all over America even down to
High
School level and be attributed in part to my doing!
.....................................................
There
are some quotes, a bunch of them, whose essence is: "Don't imitate what
you
study, but use knowledge to beat a new path," or something to that effect.
That's
been running through my head when reading some of the recent posts (I
won't
mention which ones) and reflecting on the state of "being Beat."
Anyone
who has
a quote that resembles what I've written here, could you please mail
it to
me? I'd appreciate it.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:11:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19980126195014.00701ee8@pop.gpnet.it>
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Thanks,
Rinaldo, I'll definitely check that out. _Die Leiden des jungen
Werthers_
is very similar... A young, emotional man falls in love with a
girl
who is engaged to some one else. They fall in love, but she marries
the guy
to whom she was already engaged. Werther (the aforementioned
young,
emotional man) shoots himself, and his death is described in great
detail.
The book is written as a series of letters, in which Werther
describes
his emotions in detail, and the whole novel is just beautiful.
I've
always wanted to compare the Sturm und Drang works with the American
Beat-generation
works, because Beat could be considered a later, American
"Sturm
und Drang" period.
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Cronopio, cronopio?
On Mon,
26 Jan 1998, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
Sara wrote:
>
>Well, IDDHI, as Goethe once said, "Leck mich am Arsch!"
>
>
>
>But seriously, has anyone ever read any of the German Sturm und Drang
>
>literature? Like _Die Leiden des Jungen Werthers_ (or in English _The
>
>Sorrows of Young Werther_)? That book was Beat 200 years before Beat. It
>
>is as beautiful as On the Road, as ugly and as gorgeous as Howl. Has
>
>anyone else read any Sturm und Drang? What's your take on it?
>
> --Sara
>
>
>
Sara you reminded me...
>
before sturm und drang i think there's an italian (venetian) poet
>
named Ugo Foscolo(1778-1827), who wrote "Le ultime lettere di Jacopo
Ortis"
>
_The last letters of Jacopo Ortis_ about the juvenile pain
> of
romantic love same period of goethe.
>
but Foscolo was a young cosmopolitan poet, he was a political
>
refugee (as many italians) and devasted of the suicidal death
> of
his brother cuz of debt of honour. Ugo Foscolo banished by
>
Napoleone Bonaparte was living the last years of his life in
>
London, where he died in dire poverty at Turnham Green near
>
London. Many times i pass by the house he lived in Venice,
>
near the fondamenta of San Marco (Castello).
> In
the beginning of spring the wall of the house are adorned
> by
geraniums...near a strange tavern maybe the same he go to...
>
>
saluti,
>
Rinaldo.
>
-------
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:31:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "James F. Wood 253-7886"
<WOODJ@MAIL.FIRN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Back to Allen (was Re: Lewinsky-Clinton
/ Abishag-King David)
In-Reply-To: <34CAB59A.79D7@midusa.net>
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i again
that may be the reason as you suggested, I dont know much about all
this
computer stuff except how to send most e-mail and surf the web.
Thanks
see ya
Jim
Wood
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:07:25 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "Sturm und Drang" and Beat
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"Sturm
and Drang" conntect to Beat only in so much as Beat is in a line of
evolution
from Romanticism, (of which Sturm and Drang is a subset) in it's
emphasis
on the personal and the alienation of the individual in an increasingly
complex
society--to be pedantic about it. You
could probably seem some
connection
between The Sorrows of Young Werther and Howl, but I doubt that it
would
illuminate either work much.
James
Stauffer
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Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:29:50 -0600
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: 1957 or 1998?
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Maggie
Dharma wrote:
>
>
.....................................................
>
There are some quotes, a bunch of them, whose essence is: "Don't imitate
what
>
you study, but use knowledge to beat a new path," or something to that
effect.
>
That's been running through my head when reading some of the recent posts (I
>
won't mention which ones) and reflecting on the state of "being
Beat." Anyone
>
who has a quote that resembles what I've written here, could you please mail
> it
to me? I'd appreciate it.
>
Maggie
it was
fairly obvious but this was most of what my ditty Zyprexa Blues
#235
was ALL about. And it runs the gamut of
culture not just beats. I
sent
that writing to former bosses and students and colleagues around
the
country and a former Hawkeye student who is now a lawyer wrote back
almost
immediately about how clearly he could identify with the "kill
Jacky"
portion.
siesta
time,
dbr
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Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:21:20 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: scope
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YO,
brother bill. thanks again
mc
Bill
Gargan wrote:
>
Once again, Beat-l is not a chat room.
Messages about the superbowl and
>
personal relationships have no place on this list. I have to ask
>
everyone to respect the scope of the list as defined in the original
>
welcome message.
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Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:46:29 EST
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From: Nico 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jack Kerouac and Gian Pieretti
during 1966.
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In a
message dated 98-01-26 13:14:06 EST, you write:
> i
think,
> the first italian beat was a woman exactly
Carmen Villani.
>
hey,
Rinaldo--
this is interesting-- could you tell us a
little more about Signora
Villani?
in america, women didn't have much place in
the (popularized) beat movement,
(and
fine, anyone can disagree with me on this, but i dont know who would)
other
than Cassady's wonderful kicks, be it sex or physical abuse, so i'd dig
an
italian beat lady, definitely.
tutte buone cose,
Ginny