=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:43:32 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      the scary WSB

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Cathy Wilkie wrote:

>

> thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so

> scary to me anymore...

 

and Maggie Dharma wrote:

 

> You all have given me a desire

> to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!

 

 

 

=== Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:

what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'?  I'm just curious.

Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't

recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted Morgan,

the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of

WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

listening to Lester Young, 1944 stuff

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:51:38 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>

Subject:      Re: blaster

 

particle man,

particle man.

particle man meets blaster man.

oh sorry-

they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.

 

_____________________________________________________________________

You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.

Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com

Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:52:21 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

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In a message dated 30-Jan-98 6:31:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,

jholland@ICLUB.ORG writes:

 

<< what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'?  I'm just curious.

 Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work,  >>

 

yeah, more or less. I haven't felt "invited" in to his prose like I usually do

with writers. There's no doubt he affects or otherwise puts out there a "dark

side." And reading him out of context, i.e., in modern times as opposed to way

back when he originally wrote, he feels somewhat dated to me, out of step

with, certainly, heterosexuality and women as well as heroin use.

 

of course, I'm just talking off the top of my head. When he died last summer I

visited a bunch of his tribute sites and employed the "cut-up machine" I found

at one of them to see if there was any way I could understand him or produce

anything like what he wrote, or even get a feel for him. I couldn't.

 

But the discussion on Beat-L lately has been very interesting and has armed me

with ideas to try him again. So I will.

 

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:04:05 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      some thoughts

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I'm probably going to sign off the list pretty soon, not because I don't like

it, but for other reasons that have only to do with myself and are of no

interest to anyone. And I wanted to say something, make an observation before

I go.

 

I also am subscribed to the Bukowski list, and if I get one piece of mail from

that group a week, that's a full schedule for all those geniuses and barflies.

It's very different from this list in that regard, and good, bad or

indifferent, when a post comes from the Buk list, it is about Bukowski and

nothing else.

 

It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it seems to me that people on

this list post occasional thoughtful, soul-searching questions and theories

that make for great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get

discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry instead and that gets

discussed. Remember, I'm not really making a judgment here.

 

Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not qualified or interested

enough to make a thread last very long or really profit from it; I don't know,

I really don't, I'm just saying maybe. I know I didn't comment a bunch of

times because I didn't know what to say, but I was hoping really hard someone

else would comment, and I'd learn something. Then when I had some

information/knowledge, I did post it, and hope people learned from that and

enjoyed it.

 

Anyway, it's quality, not quantity, that I've enjoyed here, and I'll

undoubtedly sign up again eventually (I'm not gone yet, though, so don't give

away my seat!).

 

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:22:50 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      tmbg (was: re:blaster)

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Bob Lewis wrote:

 

> oh sorry-

> they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.

 

 

=== Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I

Palindrome I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming

from Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your

Racist Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",

"Birdhouse in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

digging on Blind Willie McTell

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:18:40 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwy Thomas <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: blaster

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and don't forget ice-cream/coffee blasters

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:39:34 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sanders inquiry

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Jeffrey Scott Holland says,

  "I don't wanna open up what is probably an old tired thread here (I

just hopped this train last week), but Ginsberg considered Sanders a

"legit" beat and so do I.  Of course, I use a very wide and inclusive

definition of the term."

 

------------------------

I agree, Holland, but I just subscribed to this list and for some reason I

expected a bunch of comments that don't support Sanders' beat status. I'm glad

that you brought Ginsberg's consideration up. I wish my thesis advisors were

as cool about using the very wide and inclusive definition of the term,

"Beat." I'm going to review my data and look for Ginsberg's statements.

Perhaps it will help me understand the realtionship more clearly.

 

Thanks, Drea

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:48:12 +0000

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      New Millenium Questions

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I found this wonderful list of questions in Chicago Review, Fall 97,

Also has a wonderful interview with Robert Duncan by Robert Peters who

listmemebers have heard of as a friend of Charles Plymell's (much missed

former list-member) and mine, and a great article on Jack Spicer and his

circle by former (and missed) listmember Kevin Killian and Lew

Ellingham.

 

This is by Paul Hoover, editor of the Norton Postmodern Anthology.

 

THE NEW MILLENIUM:

FIFTY STATEMENTS ON LITERATURE AND CULTURE

(AGREE OR DISAGREE)

 

1. The word "consumer" has replaced the word "citizen" in most forms of

discourse.

 

2. Traditional culture is the enemy of consumerism.

 

3. Media culture collaborates with consumerism to confuse and intimidate

the average literate citizen.

 

4. Postmodern theory was created to confuse and intimidate the average

literate citizen.

 

5. Avant-gardes are a necessary aspect of late capitalism.

 

6. Poetry has the same connection to social class that it had under

aristocratic social orders.

 

7. The erotic allure of narrative lies in the courtship of the author

and reader, usually  involving the courtly deference of the former to

the later. The eroticism of non-narrative lies in the shared rufusal of

normal relations.

 

8. The mind can only conceive of uncertainty as a certainty--in other

words as an image.  But images are of interest only when they

communicate an uncertainty.

 

9. Poems are entirely factual.

 

10. The list, or series, is the major organizing priciple of  writing.

 

11.  The out of sequence series is the organizing principle of most

avant-garde writing.

 

12.  The "new" in art is always imported from another culture.

 

13. Annihilation is a form of flattery.

 

14.  There is more difference between one and zero than one and one

million.

 

15. Poetry is a rumor told by the truth.

 

16.  Even at their most fantastic, our thoughts are based on the world

with which we are already familiar.  All metaphor, therefore, is homely,

at base.

 

17.  In photographs, the pose confronts the camera like a camera.

 

18.  Photographs are by nature momentary (they are slices of time),

dramatic (they are staged) and elegiac (they fade); in this they

resemble poetry.

 

19. Creativity is a sentimental concept.

 

20.  The filscript is the primary literary genre.

 

21.  Choose one: (1) The names of things have more power than the things

themselves; (2) The actuality of things is more expressive than

language; (3) things like oranges have tremendous presence, but are

invisible without their names.

 

22. Writers, like actors, require personae.

 

23. The "new" is always strangely familiar.

 

24. The politics of language appears first in the preposition.

 

25.  Relativism and pluralism are forms of absolutism.

 

26.  Irony is closer to the truth than direct statements of fact.

 

27  Simple things, like armies, can be understood by pointing.

 

28. Postmodern dispersion is a form of irony, using multiplicity to

arrive at a "new realism" But it is a form of irony that lacks irony.

 

29.  Language poetry is a sign sung by a seme.

 

30. Do writer feel pain, or are they too dishonest?

 

31.  Fame is the truest form of transcendence.

 

32.  Thought is sexless, but it's subject matter is gendered.

 

33.  Art is a form of social control.

 

34.  Theory is fiction with only one character.

 

35.  Erasure is it own reward.

 

36.  To know the future of an art, examine the most ridiculed and

marginalized form of its current practice.

 

37.  A good sentence is never innocent.

 

38.  Only actors have souls.

 

39  Transgression is a form of postmodern worship.

 

40    The past is still under construction.

 

41.  Replication of existing themes and forms is the only true realism.

 

42  The speed of reality is faster than the speed of attention.

 

43.  Only poetry approaches the speed of truth.

 

44.  All narrative aspires to the chase scene.

 

45.  Nature fills the gaps that authors leave.

 

46. Dignity requires a history of suffering.

 

47  Avant-garde poetry is nostalgic for tradition.

 

48.  Modernism has yet to complete its mission.

 

49  Postmodernism is sentimental about the future.

 

50.  Because there is no belief, there is no millenial fervor.

 

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<HTML>

I found this wonderful list of questions in <I>Chicago Review, </I>Fall

97, Also has a wonderful interview with Robert Duncan by Robert Peters

who listmemebers have heard of as a friend of Charles Plymell's (much missed

former list-member) and mine, and a great article on Jack Spicer and his

circle by former (and missed) listmember Kevin Killian and Lew Ellingham.

 

<P>This is by Paul Hoover, editor of the Norton Postmodern Anthology.

 

<P>THE NEW MILLENIUM:

<BR>FIFTY STATEMENTS ON LITERATURE AND CULTURE

<BR>(AGREE OR DISAGREE)

 

<P>1. The word "consumer" has replaced the word "citizen" in most forms

of discourse.

 

<P>2. Traditional culture is the enemy of consumerism.

 

<P>3. Media culture collaborates with consumerism to confuse and intimidate

the average literate citizen.

 

<P>4. Postmodern theory was created to confuse and intimidate the average

literate citizen.

 

<P>5. Avant-gardes are a necessary aspect of late capitalism.

 

<P>6. Poetry has the same connection to social class that it had under

aristocratic social orders.

 

<P>7. The erotic allure of narrative lies in the courtship of the author

and reader, usually&nbsp; involving the courtly deference of the former

to the later. The eroticism of non-narrative lies in the shared rufusal

of normal relations.

 

<P>8. The mind can only conceive of uncertainty as a certainty--in other

words as an image.&nbsp; But images are of interest only when they communicate

an uncertainty.

 

<P>9. Poems are entirely factual.

 

<P>10. The list, or series, is the major organizing priciple of&nbsp; writing.

 

<P>11.&nbsp; The out of sequence series is the organizing principle of

most avant-garde writing.

 

<P>12.&nbsp; The "new" in art is always imported from another culture.

 

<P>13. Annihilation is a form of flattery.

 

<P>14.&nbsp; There is more difference between one and zero than one and

one million.

 

<P>15. Poetry is a rumor told by the truth.

 

<P>16.&nbsp; Even at their most fantastic, our thoughts are based on the

world with which we are already familiar.&nbsp; All metaphor, therefore,

is homely, at base.

 

<P>17.&nbsp; In photographs, the pose confronts the camera like a camera.

 

<P>18.&nbsp; Photographs are by nature momentary (they are slices of time),

dramatic (they are staged) and elegiac (they fade); in this they resemble

poetry.

 

<P>19. Creativity is a sentimental concept.

 

<P>20.&nbsp; The filscript is the primary literary genre.

 

<P>21.&nbsp; Choose one: (1) The names of things have more power than the

things themselves; (2) The actuality of things is more expressive than

language; (3) things like oranges have tremendous presence, but are invisible

without their names.

 

<P>22. Writers, like actors, require personae.

 

<P>23. The "new" is always strangely familiar.

 

<P>24. The politics of language appears first in the preposition.

 

<P>25.&nbsp; Relativism and pluralism are forms of absolutism.

 

<P>26.&nbsp; Irony is closer to the truth than direct statements of fact.

 

<P>27&nbsp; Simple things, like armies, can be understood by pointing.

 

<P>28. Postmodern dispersion is a form of irony, using multiplicity to

arrive at a "new realism" But it is a form of irony that lacks irony.

 

<P>29.&nbsp; Language poetry is a sign sung by a seme.

 

<P>30. Do writer feel pain, or are they too dishonest?

 

<P>31.&nbsp; Fame is the truest form of transcendence.

 

<P>32.&nbsp; Thought is sexless, but it's subject matter is gendered.

 

<P>33.&nbsp; Art is a form of social control.

 

<P>34.&nbsp; Theory is fiction with only one character.

 

<P>35.&nbsp; Erasure is it own reward.

 

<P>36.&nbsp; To know the future of an art, examine the most ridiculed and

marginalized form of its current practice.

 

<P>37.&nbsp; A good sentence is never innocent.

 

<P>38.&nbsp; Only actors have souls.

 

<P>39&nbsp; Transgression is a form of postmodern worship.

 

<P>40&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The past is still under construction.

 

<P>41.&nbsp; Replication of existing themes and forms is the only true

realism.

 

<P>42&nbsp; The speed of reality is faster than the speed of attention.

 

<P>43.&nbsp; Only poetry approaches the speed of truth.

 

<P>44.&nbsp; All narrative aspires to the chase scene.

 

<P>45.&nbsp; Nature fills the gaps that authors leave.

 

<P>46. Dignity requires a history of suffering.

 

<P>47&nbsp; Avant-garde poetry is nostalgic for tradition.

 

<P>48.&nbsp; Modernism has yet to complete its mission.

 

<P>49&nbsp; Postmodernism is sentimental about the future.

 

<P>50.&nbsp; Because there is no belief, there is no millenial fervor.</HTML>

 

--------------D0FF3FBBC83375A05B30E320--

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:47:14 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sanders inquiry

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In a message dated 30-Jan-98 7:40:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, BMXDREA@AOL.COM

writes:

 

<<  I'm glad

 that you brought Ginsberg's consideration up.  >>

 

I have some vague recollection of Ginsberg collaborating with The Fugs back in

the very earliest Sixties. Do a web search for Tuli Kupferberg, as well as Ed

Sanders, and be sure to check out Literary Kicks for some very enlightening

links on Sanders.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:20:10 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

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Maggie Dharma wrote:

 

> yeah, more or less. I haven't felt "invited" in to his prose like I usually do

> with writers.

 

=== Right, whereas Kerouac is like "roll up for the magical mystery

tour", WSB is more like, "I'm gonna sit here and play with my soul. You

can watch if you want. Or don't." Reading WSB is a very voyeuristic

experience, more so than Kerouac's for some reason, even though

Kerouac's work is basically his day-to-day diary.

 

 

 

> he feels somewhat dated to me, out of step

> with, certainly, heterosexuality and women as well as heroin use.

 

=== For better or for worse, there are probably more people now leading

the WSB lifestyle than there were in the 60's. Personally, I think he's

more trenchant than ever.

 

 

 

> But the discussion on Beat-L lately has been very interesting and has armed me

> with ideas to try him again. So I will.

 

=== If I may suggest: "The Adding Machine" (a very sober collection of

essays), "My Education" (selections from his dream journals) and "Queer"

(an unflinchingly honest novel, especially for 1951)

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

meditating on Japanese candy

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:47:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

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   I always WSB to be the archetypal criminal/outcast,someone who lives

on the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it. Yet A charecter who

follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned

him.

 

  Maybe some will be thinking that this is too kind.. I would love to

hear any comments on this

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:57:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      WSB and science fiction

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If one wants see the real literary influence of WSB they should look at

the new wave science fiction writers. These included Norman

Spinrad,Micheal Moorecock.John Stadelk,and especialy cult author J.G.

Ballard.

 

 

 There is a huge debt that modern science fiction owes to the beat

generation.  Authors like Philip K. Dick are more similar to WSB and

Ginsberg than Asimov or Heinlein.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:58:40 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19980130092148.00890260@pobox3.bbn.com>

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What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?

conceptualizing, my ass.

 

On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:

 

> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see lit=

tle value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without conceptualizin=

g it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile discussion. To simply s=

tate that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece doesn't go very far toward =

generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to the next step, whether it =

be a personal insight or reflection on some aspect of the piece or somethin=

g more lit crit/theoretical. How has the piece influenced, say, your concep=

tion of a poetics. Something.

>=20

>=20

> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours h=

anding out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about. :=

]

>=20

>=20

> Regards,

>=20

>=20

> Ed

>=20

>=20

>=20

>=20

> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

>=20

> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv b=

ut as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality o=

f beat lit. and

>=20

> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?

>=20

> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've bee=

en reading ginsberg for years.

>=20

> >mc

>=20

> >

>=20

> >Edward Desautels wrote:

>=20

> >

>=20

> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.

>=20

> >>

>=20

> >> Ed

>=20

> >>

>=20

> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

>=20

> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that

>=20

> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >Take my love, it is not true,

>=20

> >> >So let it tempt no body new;

>=20

> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh

>=20

> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;

>=20

> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>=20

> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,

>=20

> >> >To give to some poor poet old;

>=20

> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth

>=20

> >> >If his age would wear my youth;

>=20

> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>=20

> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind

>=20

> >> >Blow my body out of mind;

>=20

> >> >Take this heart to go with that

>=20

> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;

>=20

> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>=20

> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >Take the art which I bemoan

>=20

> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;

>=20

> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,

>=20

> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;

>=20

> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>=20

> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest

>=20

> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our

>=20

> >> >counterculture.

>=20

> >> > Maggie G.

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >> >_________________________________________________________

>=20

> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?

>=20

> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>=20

> >> >

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=D2*

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DA0

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DA0

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DA0

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DA0

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DAp

>=20

> >>

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DA=A5

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DB=04

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4=DB=04

>=20

> >>                                                                       =

                                                                           =

               =01=F4x8

>=20

> >

>=20

> <center>************************************************************

>=20

> <bigger>Edward Desautels

>=20

> 7 Hamilton Road

>=20

> Somerville, MA 02144

>=20

> edesaute@bbnplanet.com

>=20

> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html

>=20

>=20

> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20

>=20

> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."

>=20

> Jacques Rigaut

>=20

> </bigger>************************************************************</ce=

nter>

>=20

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:23:40 +0000

Reply-To:     tkc@zipcon.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

Organization: art language wholsale retail

Subject:      Re: Ed Sanders inquiry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

there's an article about him in an  old avant garde magazine from about

1968 that might have some biographical stuff.

 

the dictionary of literary biography has a two part set on the beats

that should list him

 

you might have some luck with underground rock histories

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:27:45 +0000

Reply-To:     tkc@zipcon.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

Organization: art language wholsale retail

Subject:      Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

they migh be giants quotes parts of howl some where...i should be

allowed to hang my poster ishould be allowed to think...or sumpin.....

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:29:36 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: some thoughts

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:04 PM 1/30/98 EST, Maggie wrote:

 

>It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it

>seems to me that people on this list post occasional thoughtful,

>soul-searching questions and theories that make for

>great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get

>discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry

>instead and that gets discussed. Remember, I'm not

>really making a judgment here.

                            ^^^^^^^^^

>Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not

>qualified or interested enough to make a thread last

>very long or really profit from it; I don't know,

>I really don't, I'm just saying maybe.

 

Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:

 

judgement: n.  3.  Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical faculty,

discernment.

 

In one of them "word game" moods I guess. . .

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:23:14 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ed Sanders inquiry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

I have most everything on Sanders- and this includes all those Dictionary of

Lit articles and the fugs stuff. What I am really looking for is scholarly

criticism of his work. I have tons of trash on Sanders! Believe me folks, I

spent an entire semester on Lexis/Nexis and every other database that I have

access to and there is slim pickings on this man and his work. Not

suprisingly, most of the info I have is conflicting.

 

I think I'm going to have to go up to Woodstock and talk to old Ed myself. You

wouldn't believe how terrible the reviews of his work are. Just trash! One

reviewer doesn't even recognize that the name of the fictional rock group in

"Fame and Love in New York," is the famous (recently honored an celebrated)

work of Emile Zola. I struggle a  lot with Ed's work and I feel very close to

his purpose, but more than anything, I pity Sanders because it seems as though

he will go unrecognized-- and I mean in a scholarly, intelligent way.

 

Thanks for the tips about the Asher website etc. I'll leaf through my data and

find more on the ginsberg-fug connection. I must admit I'm more interested in

Sanders' literary ventures, however. Sanders said that he considered the fugs

a literary group, and that's especially evident in the group's romantic

influences.

 

Drea

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:28:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: some thoughts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Maggie Dharma wrote:

>

> I'm probably going to sign off the list pretty soon, not because I don't like

> it, but for other reasons that have only to do with myself and are of no

> interest to anyone. And I wanted to say something, make an observation before

> I go.

>

> I also am subscribed to the Bukowski list, and if I get one piece of mail from

> that group a week, that's a full schedule for all those geniuses and barflies.

> It's very different from this list in that regard, and good, bad or

> indifferent, when a post comes from the Buk list, it is about Bukowski and

> nothing else.

>

> It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it seems to me that people on

> this list post occasional thoughtful, soul-searching questions and theories

> that make for great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get

> discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry instead and that gets

> discussed. Remember, I'm not really making a judgment here.

>

> Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not qualified or interested

> enough to make a thread last very long or really profit from it; I don't know,

> I really don't, I'm just saying maybe. I know I didn't comment a bunch of

> times because I didn't know what to say, but I was hoping really hard someone

> else would comment, and I'd learn something. Then when I had some

> information/knowledge, I did post it, and hope people learned from that and

> enjoyed it.

>

> Anyway, it's quality, not quantity, that I've enjoyed here, and I'll

> undoubtedly sign up again eventually (I'm not gone yet, though, so don't give

> away my seat!).

>

> Maggie

melanie is singing "there's a chance peace will come in your life please

buy one" as i meet your message.  i'm totally ignorant of this Buk the

puke dude.  "there's nothing nicer than having to sing an unnecessary

peace song".

 

i will say that the variety is the spice of life.  i'm a member of the

Hesse and Burke listserves and i find it dreadful that the energy level

for discussions concerning folks so charged in their interior landscapes

comes down to dry meanderings once a month whether the moon is full or

not.

 

it sounds as though there is room in the universe for different types of

listserves and in this one i wish that there were more scholarly threads

for me to learn from in addition to the banter and chatter which i'm

often at the centre of (prep at end of sentence so shoot me!).

 

i'd suggest you consider shifting to digest for a bit to stay connected

and yet not in the thick.  i do that from time to time.  and if you do

leave we'll all have to sing "Goodnight Irene" with a little

orchestration and five part harmony and the like.

 

Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat (as many

of the Beats rejected the label as labeling was anathema).  If we could

stipulate that he is nearly quasi-Beat could you slide him within the

pantheon for me and others.

 

thanks in advance.

gypsy davey

 

p.s.  i'm tempted to join the Bukowski list just to see how long it

takes for me to get kicked off!!!!!  If you see Bukowski on the

listserve shoot him with an arrow in the forehead.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:30:35 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: blaster

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Aeronwy Thomas wrote:

>

> and don't forget ice-cream/coffee blasters

 

and Zoroasterblasters and Zarathustra boosters.

 

dbr

 

p.s.  i know "scope!" couldn't resist

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:03:22 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980127184547.006a78a4@uoft02.utoledo.edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS             vocals:Laurie Anderson

 

Paradise

Is exactly like

Where you are right now

Only much much

Better.

 

I saw this guy on the train

And he seemed to have gotten stuck

In one of those abstract trances.

And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."

 

And Fred said:

"I think he's in some kind of pain.

I think it's a pain cry."

And I said: "Pain cry?

Then language is a virus."

 

Language! It's a virus!

Language! It's a virus!

 

Well I was talking to a friend

And I was saying:

I wanted you.

And I was looking for you.

but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.

And he said: Hey!

Are you talking to me?

Or are you just practicing

For one of those performances of yours?

Huh?

 

Language! It's a virus!

Language! It's a virus!

 

He said: I had to write that letter to your mother.

And I had to tell the judge that it was you.

And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.

Because that's just my way of saying       It's a charm.

That I love you. And I                     It's a job.

Had to call you at the crack of down

                                           Why?

And list the times that I've been wrong.

Cause that's just my way of saying

That I'm sorry.

                                           It's a job.

 

Language! It's a virus!

Language! It's a virus!

 

Paradise

Is exactly like

Where you are right now

Only much much              It's a shipwreck,

Better.                           It's a job.

 

You know? I don't believe there's such

a thing as TV. I mean --

They just keep showing you

The same pictures over and over.

And when they talk they just make sounds

That more or less synch up

With their lips.

That's what I think!

 

Language! It's a virus!

Language! It's a virus!

Language! It's a virus!

 

Well I dreamed there was an island

That rose up from the sea

And everybody on the island

Was somebody from TV.

And there was a beautiful view

But nobody could see.

Cause everybody on the island

Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!

            Look at me! Look at me!

 

Because they all lived on an island

That rose up from the sea

And everybody on the island

Was somebody from the TV.

And there was a beutiful view

But nobody could see.

Cause everybody on the island

Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!

            Look at me! Why?

 

Paradise is exactly like

Where you are right now

Only much much better.

 

                           "LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS

                              FROM OUTER SPACE."

                           -- William S. Burroughs

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:07:26 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

"to live outside the law you must be honest" -bob dylan

 

Mark Ricard wrote:

 

>    I always WSB to be the archetypal criminal/outcast,someone who lives

> on the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it. Yet A charecter who

> follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned

> him.

>

>   Maybe some will be thinking that this is too kind.. I would love to

> hear any comments on this

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:21:49 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";

              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

rinaldo, do you know what album/tape/CD this is from?

mc

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS             vocals:Laurie Anderson

>

> Paradise

> Is exactly like

> Where you are right now

> Only much much

> Better.

>

> I saw this guy on the train

> And he seemed to have gotten stuck

> In one of those abstract trances.

> And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."

>

> And Fred said:

> "I think he's in some kind of pain.

> I think it's a pain cry."

> And I said: "Pain cry?

> Then language is a virus."

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> Well I was talking to a friend

> And I was saying:

> I wanted you.

> And I was looking for you.

> but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.

> And he said: Hey!

> Are you talking to me?

> Or are you just practicing

> For one of those performances of yours?

> Huh?

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> He said: I had to write that letter to your mother.

> And I had to tell the judge that it was you.

> And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.

> Because that's just my way of saying       It's a charm.

> That I love you. And I                     It's a job.

> Had to call you at the crack of down

>                                            Why?

> And list the times that I've been wrong.

> Cause that's just my way of saying

> That I'm sorry.

>                                            It's a job.

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> Paradise

> Is exactly like

> Where you are right now

> Only much much              It's a shipwreck,

> Better.                           It's a job.

>

> You know? I don't believe there's such

> a thing as TV. I mean --

> They just keep showing you

> The same pictures over and over.

> And when they talk they just make sounds

> That more or less synch up

> With their lips.

> That's what I think!

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> Well I dreamed there was an island

> That rose up from the sea

> And everybody on the island

> Was somebody from TV.

> And there was a beautiful view

> But nobody could see.

> Cause everybody on the island

> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!

>             Look at me! Look at me!

>

> Because they all lived on an island

> That rose up from the sea

> And everybody on the island

> Was somebody from the TV.

> And there was a beutiful view

> But nobody could see.

> Cause everybody on the island

> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!

>             Look at me! Why?

>

> Paradise is exactly like

> Where you are right now

> Only much much better.

>

>                            "LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS

>                               FROM OUTER SPACE."

>                            -- William S. Burroughs

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:39:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

 

Reply to message from edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM of Fri, 30 Jan

>

>Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see little=

> value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without conceptualizing it=

> in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile discussion. To simply state=

> that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece doesn't go very far toward=

> generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to the next step, whether it=

> be a personal insight or reflection on some aspect of the piece or=

> something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the piece influenced, say,=

> your conception of a poetics. Something.

 

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with just sharing a Beat poem for

sharing's sakes to me.  As much as this list thrives on academic

discussions, I'm sure we all need an occasional break.  I thought the poem

was gorgeous, & was esp. struck by the rhyme scheme, so different

from his later poems!  How people change...

 

Diane.

 

 

 

>

>

>As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours=

> handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about.=

> :]

>

>

>Regards,

>

>

>Ed

>

>

>

>

>At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

>

>>ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv but=

> as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality of=

> beat lit. and

>

>>speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?

>

>>i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've beeen=

> reading ginsberg for years.

>

>>mc

>

>>

>

>>Edward Desautels wrote:

>

>>

>

>>> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.

>

>>>

>

>>> Ed

>

>>>

>

>>> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

>

>>> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that

>

>>> >I thought was well worth sharing.

>

>>> >

>

>>> >

>

>>> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time

>

>>> >

>

>>> >Take my love, it is not true,

>

>>> >So let it tempt no body new;

>

>>> >Take my lady, she will sigh

>

>>> >For my bed where'er I lie;

>

>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>

>>> > But leave my bones alone.

>

>>> >

>

>>> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,

>

>>> >To give to some poor poet old;

>

>>> >Take the skin that hoods this truth

>

>>> >If his age would wear my youth;

>

>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>

>>> > But leave my bones alone.

>

>>> >

>

>>> >Take the thoughts that like the wind

>

>>> >Blow my body out of mind;

>

>>> >Take this heart to go with that

>

>>> >And pass it on from rat to rat;

>

>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>

>>> > But leave my bones alone.

>

>>> >

>

>>> >Take the art which I bemoan

>

>>> >In a poem's crazy tone;

>

>>> >Grind me down, though I may groan,

>

>>> >To the starkest stick and stone;

>

>>> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>

>>> > But leave my bones alone.

>

>>> >

>

>>> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest

>

>>> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our

>

>>> >counterculture.

>

>>> > Maggie G.

>

>>> >

>

>>> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

>

>>> >

>

>>> >

>

>>> >

>

>>> >_________________________________________________________

>

>>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?

>

>>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>

>>> >

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=D2*

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DA0

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DA0

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DA0

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DA0

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DAp

>

>>>

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DA=A5

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DB=04

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4=DB=04

>

>>>                                                                          =

>                                                                            =

>           =01=F4x8

>

>>

>

><center>************************************************************

>

><bigger>Edward Desautels

>

>7 Hamilton Road

>

>Somerville, MA 02144

>

>edesaute@bbnplanet.com

>

>http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html

>

>

>"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20

>

>I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."

>

>Jacques Rigaut

>

></bigger>************************************************************</cente=

>r>

>

>

 

--

"This is Beat.  Live your lives out?  Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

                                                        --Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:39:09 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: some thoughts

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 30-Jan-98 9:31:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,

cake@IONLINE.NET writes:

 

<< Remember, I'm not

 >really making a judgment here.

 

 Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:

 

 judgement: n.  3.  Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical faculty,

 discernment.

 

 In one of them "word game" moods I guess. . .

 

 Mike >>

.........................................................................

 

I wrote "judgment," not "judgement," Mike.

 

In one of them "word spelling right" moods, I guess (imagine a good-natured

grin here)...

 

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:45:30 -0500

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)

 

Reply to message from jholland@ICLUB.ORG of Fri, 30 Jan

>

>Bob Lewis wrote:

>

>> oh sorry-

>> they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.

>

>

>=== Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I

>Palindrome I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming

>from Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your

>Racist Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",

>"Birdhouse in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.

 

what about their song that alludes to Howl?  I don't remeber what it's

called, but it starts off with the line about teh best minds of their

generation...it's lsited on Levi's Literary Kicks page somewehre.

 

 

Diane.

 

>

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

>digging on Blind Willie McTell

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>

>

 

--

"This is Beat.  Live your lives out?  Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

                                                        --Jack Kerouac

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:44:44 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Ed Sanders inquiry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 30-Jan-98 10:30:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,

BMXDREA@AOL.COM writes:

 

<< What I am really looking for is scholarly

 criticism of his work. >>

 

oh, sorry, Andrea... I lost the focus of your thread.

 

I guess I probably shouldn't start one about the artificiality of the

scholarly community to recognize an artist until a scholarly work or criticism

is completed on him/her.

 

still, some great art languishes in obscurity until some ph. D. candidate does

a dissertation and publishes it...

 

MD

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:08:46 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Mark Ricard wrote:

>

>    I always WSB to be the archetypal criminal/outcast,someone who lives

> on the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it.

 

=== Well, obviously. He was a heroin addict, a pedophile, and a writer

of harsh reality. This definitely qualifies him as an outcast on the

fringe of society. Being openly gay in the repressive 1950's didn't hurt

either. Neither did shooting Joan.

 

 

 

> Yet A charecter who

> follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned

> him.

 

=== WSB didn't always live up to his own notion of the "Johnsons", but

he did better than any of us probably ever will.

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

drinking Amaretto for Breakfast

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:52:36 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: some thoughts

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

In a message dated 31-Jan-98 1:32:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, race@MIDUSA.NET

writes:

 

<<

 i'd suggest you consider shifting to digest for a bit to stay connected

 and yet not in the thick.  i do that from time to time.  and if you do

 leave we'll all have to sing "Goodnight Irene" with a little

  >>

 

not a bad idea, david. and how did you know my real name is Irene? Oh, i

probably told you. That's my problem. I talk too much. I tell too much.

 

It's not Beat-L; it's me (that's what I always say when I break up with

someone)...

 

Take nothing seriously. It's just life.

 

MD

 

ps: I've never identified Bukowski as Beat. to me, he always seemed to

specialize in being a big old embittered drunk, maybe grandaddy of "The Beer

Generation" or "Hooch-oo-mian." But not Beat, not to me.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:10:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

 

I have two comments about this: 1. Does sex with teenage boys make you a

pedophile? Not in my book it doesn't.,2. What was WSB's personal

reaction to Joan's death? How much guilt diid he feel?Did he love her?

How diid this affect his life?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:17:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>

Subject:      Re: blaster

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Crap Blaster

 

At 09:13 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Blaster

>

>Map blaster

>Sound blaster

>Master blaster

>Bass blaster

>Cap blaster

>Disaster blaster

>No blaster

>Portland Blaster

>Mortar blaster

>Clinton blaster

>Blaster blaster

>Blaster blaster blaster

>Jazz blaster

>Rocket blaster

>Blast blaster

>Blust blaster.

>Blaster

>Blast.

>

>--

>

>Peace,

>

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:29:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: some thoughts

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

 

Bukoski is funnier than any of the other beat writers,if you consider

him one.  He is in the beat reader by viking,so someone considers him

one. I loved the Postoffice. Yes, he is quite a bitter angry man.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:46:33 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      bukowski

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:

 

> Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat

 

 

=== So did Kerouac himself. But we call him Beat anyway.

 

I call Bukowski a beat writer when I'm in the presence of friends and

comrades who know what I'm talking about. In mixed company, however, I

keep my lip zipped lest I elicit convoluted arguments from others on

just exactly what the one true verifiable definition of "Beat" is, blah

blah blah, which means nothing to me. I'll call Edna St.Vincent Millay a

Beat if it behooves me. And I love to be behooved.

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

going mountain climbing today

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:34:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

 

Ed

 

At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

>What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?

>conceptualizing, my ass.

>

>On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:

>

>> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see

little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without

conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile

discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece

doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to

the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some

aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the

piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.

>>=20

>>=20

>> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours

handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about.=

 :]

>>=20

>>=20

>> Regards,

>>=20

>>=20

>> Ed

>>=20

>>=20

>>=20

>>=20

>> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

>>=20

>> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv

but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality

of beat lit. and

>>=20

>> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?

>>=20

>> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've

beeen reading ginsberg for years.

>>=20

>> >mc

>>=20

>> >

>>=20

>> >Edward Desautels wrote:

>>=20

>> >

>>=20

>> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.

>>=20

>> >>

>>=20

>> >> Ed

>>=20

>> >>

>>=20

>> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

>>=20

>> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that

>>=20

>> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >Take my love, it is not true,

>>=20

>> >> >So let it tempt no body new;

>>=20

>> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh

>>=20

>> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;

>>=20

>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>>=20

>> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,

>>=20

>> >> >To give to some poor poet old;

>>=20

>> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth

>>=20

>> >> >If his age would wear my youth;

>>=20

>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>>=20

>> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind

>>=20

>> >> >Blow my body out of mind;

>>=20

>> >> >Take this heart to go with that

>>=20

>> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;

>>=20

>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>>=20

>> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >Take the art which I bemoan

>>=20

>> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;

>>=20

>> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,

>>=20

>> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;

>>=20

>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

>>=20

>> >> > But leave my bones alone.

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest

>>=20

>> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our

>>=20

>> >> >counterculture.

>>=20

>> >> > Maggie G.

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >> >_________________________________________________________

>>=20

>> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?

>>=20

>> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

>>=20

>> >> >

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=D2*

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DA0

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DA0

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DA0

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DA0

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DAp

>>=20

>> >>

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DA=A5

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DB=04

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4=DB=04

>>=20

>> >>

 

              =01=F4x8

>>=20

>> >

>>=20

>> <center>************************************************************

>>=20

>> <bigger>Edward Desautels

>>=20

>> 7 Hamilton Road

>>=20

>> Somerville, MA 02144

>>=20

>> edesaute@bbnplanet.com

>>=20

>> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html

>>=20

>>=20

>> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20

>>=20

>> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."

>>=20

>> Jacques Rigaut

>>=20

>>

</bigger>************************************************************</cente=

r>

>>=20

>

>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

>Sure-JK

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:51:57 +0000

Reply-To:     tkc@zipcon.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

Organization: art language wholsale retail

Subject:      Re: Ed Sanders inquiry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

well, andria, it looks like you're the one destined to write that long

erudite piece you've been looking for, huh?

 

tkc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:58:26 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: some thoughts

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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M. Cakebread wrote:

>

> At 10:04 PM 1/30/98 EST, Maggie wrote:

>

> >It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it

> >seems to me that people on this list post occasional thoughtful,

> >soul-searching questions and theories that make for

> >great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get

> >discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry

> >instead and that gets discussed. Remember, I'm not

> >really making a judgment here.

>                             ^^^^^^^^^

> >Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not

> >qualified or interested enough to make a thread last

> >very long or really profit from it; I don't know,

> >I really don't, I'm just saying maybe.

>

> Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:

>

> judgement: n.  3.  Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical faculty,

> discernment.

>

> In one of them "word game" moods I guess. . .

>

> Mike

 

it seems the critical question is whether judgement is to precede or

follow "Understanding".

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:01:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

>

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> >

> > thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so

> > scary to me anymore...

>

> and Maggie Dharma wrote:

>

> > You all have given me a desire

> > to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!

>

> === Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:

> what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'?  I'm just curious.

> Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't

> recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted Morgan,

> the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of

> WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.

>

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

> listening to Lester Young, 1944 stuff

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

I've read most of Lit Outlaw.  When you say the best bio out there, what

is the competition.  Anybody?

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:09:10 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: bukowski

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:

>

>> Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat

>

>

>=== So did Kerouac himself.

 

Untrue.  Inaccurate.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:04:04 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)

In-Reply-To:  <199801311424.JAA22975@pike.sover.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

marie writes:

>rinaldo, do you know what album/tape/CD this is from?

>mc

>

ciao marie,

 

it's from the CD: Home Of The Brave

Jimmy Bralower: drums

Nile Rodgers: guitars

Laurie Anderson: Vocals, Synclavier

Robert Arron: sax

Crowd: Nile Rodgers, Laurie Anderson, Tom Durack, Knut Bohn,

Back-up Vocals: Curtis King, Frank Simms, Diane Garisto,

Tawatha agee, Brenda White-King

 

buon sabato a te e a tutti gli amici,

rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:16:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:34 AM 1/31/98 -0500, Ed wrote:

 

>Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

 

"The vanity of others offends our taste only when it

offends our vanity." - Friedrich Neitzsche

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:16:27 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 8:40 AM

Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

 

 

>Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

>

>Ed

 

Is that your opinion, Ed?

leon

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:14:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Matthew Zivot <mzivot@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>

Organization: The George Washington University

Subject:      Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane M. Homza wrote:

 

> Reply to message from jholland@ICLUB.ORG of Fri, 30 Jan

> >

> >Bob Lewis wrote:

> >

> >> oh sorry-

> >> they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.

> >

> >

> >=== Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I

> >Palindrome I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming

> >from Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your

> >Racist Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",

> >"Birdhouse in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.

>

> what about their song that alludes to Howl?  I don't remeber what it's

> called, but it starts off with the line about teh best minds of their

> generation...it's lsited on Levi's Literary Kicks page somewehre.

>

> Diane.

>

> >

> >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> >Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY

> >digging on Blind Willie McTell

> >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> >

> >

>

> --

> "This is Beat.  Live your lives out?  Naw, _love_ your lives out!"

>                                                         --Jack Kerouac

> Diane Marie Homza

> ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

 

 I believe its "I should be allowed to think" off the John Henry album.

Much off beat philosophy was about going where the mind took you, but I'm

still not sure if tmbg should be discussed here.

 

--

Matthew Zivot

 

************************************************************

"I think all heroic deeds were conceiv'd in the open air, and all free

poems also,

I think I can stop here myself and do miracles." - Walt Whitman

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:23:26 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Ed Sanders inquiry

In-Reply-To:  <bcb08f9b.34d2c354@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Andrea Moore wrote:

(...)

>I must admit I'm more interested in

>Sanders' literary ventures, however. Sanders said that he considered the fugs

>a literary group, and that's especially evident in the group's romantic

>influences.

>

>Drea

>

ED SANDERS / For Marilyn Monroe, August 5, 1962

 

Marilin is dead sultry fire sucked back to the brazier

heart gone endless      blotted in the universe

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:30:33 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: some thoughts

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 10:39 AM 1/31/98 EST, Maggie wrote:

 

>I wrote "judgment," not "judgement," Mike.

>

>In one of them "word spelling right" moods, I guess (imagine a

>good-natured grin here)...

 

Ahh, from the Old Testament abbreviation of "Judges"

spelling.  Etymologically speaking/spelling.

 

Mike {;^>

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:35:44 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn

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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 9:10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,

gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU writes:

 

<<  Untrue.  Inaccurate.  >>

 

On which count, Tim? Bukowski or Kerouac? I agree that Kerouac didn't hate

being associated with or thought of as a Beat, but bristled against the

pejorative "Beatnik" label. I'm not a big Bukowski scholar; mostly I just read

his poetry, which moves me, but I've never thought of him as a Beat, largely

because I don't see him allying himself with any group, except the Nation of

Drunkards. I could be wrong.

 

This brings me to another poet of the 50s who rejected labeling, but is

obviously seminal to Beats and hippies: Thom Gunn. People labeled him Beat as

well as ascribing to him some high order in gay literature. Out of respect for

him, I don't label him at all, but here's a poem he wrote in 1957, a Hell's

Angels sketch...

 

ON THE MOVE

'Man, you gotta Go.'

 

The blue jay scuffling in the bushes follows

Some hidden purpose, and the gust of birds

That spurts across the field, the wheeling swallows,

Have nested in the trees and undergrowth.

Seeking their instinct, or their poise, or both,

One moves with an uncertain violence

Under the dust thrown by a baffled sense

Or the dull thunder of approximate words.

 

On motorcycles, up the road, they come;

Small, black, as flies hang in heat, the Boys,

Until the distance throws them forth, their hum

Bulges to thunder held by calf and thigh.

In goggles, donned impersonality,

In gleaming jackets trophied with the dust,

They strap in doubt--by hiding it, robust--

And almost hear a meaning in their noise.

 

Exact conclusion of their hardiness

Has no shape yet, but from known whereabouts

They ride, direction where the tires press.

They scare a flight of birds across the field:

Much that is natural, to the will must yield.

Men manufacture both machine and soul,

And use what they imperfectly control

To dare a future from the taken routes

 

It is a part solution, after all.

One is not necessarily discord

On earth; or damned because, half animal,

One lacks direct instinct, because one wakes

Afloat on movement, then divides and breaks.

One joins the movement in a valueless world,

Choosing it, till, both hurler and the hurled,

One moves as well, always toward, toward.

 

A minute holds them, who have come to go:

The self-defined, astride the created will

They burst away; the towns they travel through

Are home for neither bird nor holiness,

For birds and saints complete their purposes.

At worst, one is in motion; and at best,

Reaching no absolute, in which to rest,

One is always nearer by not keeping still.

....................................

It just occurred to me I do Gunn a disservice by calling him a "poet of the

50s." He's still very much vital, alive and publishing in the 90s. I relate

this to Beat because of Kerouac's love for Brando and "The Wild One," and that

sense of needing to hit the road, to go, and go, and go (John Clellon Holmes).

And somehow I feel he's cut from the same cloth as Whitman, and, in an odd

way, even Thoreau.

 

All Beat, All the Time....

 

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:39:35 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)

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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 9:27:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,

mzivot@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU writes:

 

<< Matthew Zivot

 

 ************************************************************

 "I think all heroic deeds were conceiv'd in the open air, and all free

 poems also, I think I can stop here myself and do miracles." - Walt Whitman

>>

 

Nice, unintended dovetail, as our posts crossed in cyberspace... this fits

that Gunn thing I sent.

 

Great signature, Matthew.

 

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:58:44 -0800

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn

Mime-Version: 1.0

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>In a message dated 31-Jan-98 9:10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,

>gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU writes:

>

><<  Untrue.  Inaccurate.  >>

>

>On which count, Tim? Bukowski or Kerouac? I agree that Kerouac didn't hate

>being associated with or thought of as a Beat, but bristled against the

>pejorative "Beatnik" label.

 

The Kerouac part.  Yes, what you wrote above is what I meant.

 

On the Road was called The Beat Generation for a long time.  The movie Pull

My Daisy was one act of a play he wrote called the Beat Generation.  After

On the Road became popular he made the recording Poetry for the Beat

Generation.  He participated in a seminar on whether or not there was a

beat generation with his position being of course there is.

 

It was a good schtick within the literay book world that helped Kerouac and

Ginsberg in their quests to be published and have notereity.

 

Kerouac later expressed his dismay at how his creation became twisted to

mean different things.  This is when he began saying beat came from

beatific.

 

He disliked beatnik (as you said) and "beat insurrection" and those sort of

themes that the soon to be hippies actually began to use and embrace (it is

always sad and ironic how the media distortion is embraced by those who

want to join the "movement").  Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of

the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:10:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980131110322.006e2030@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Wow! I really liked this. It seemed to have a rythym that flowed nice and

easy. Is this a song or what?

 

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS             vocals:Laurie Anderson

>

> Paradise

> Is exactly like

> Where you are right now

> Only much much

> Better.

>

> I saw this guy on the train

> And he seemed to have gotten stuck

> In one of those abstract trances.

> And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."

>

> And Fred said:

> "I think he's in some kind of pain.

> I think it's a pain cry."

> And I said: "Pain cry?

> Then language is a virus."

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> Well I was talking to a friend

> And I was saying:

> I wanted you.

> And I was looking for you.

> but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.

> And he said: Hey!

> Are you talking to me?

> Or are you just practicing

> For one of those performances of yours?

> Huh?

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> He said: I had to write that letter to your mother.

> And I had to tell the judge that it was you.

> And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.

> Because that's just my way of saying       It's a charm.

> That I love you. And I                     It's a job.

> Had to call you at the crack of down

>                                            Why?

> And list the times that I've been wrong.

> Cause that's just my way of saying

> That I'm sorry.

>                                            It's a job.

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> Paradise

> Is exactly like

> Where you are right now

> Only much much              It's a shipwreck,

> Better.                           It's a job.

>

> You know? I don't believe there's such

> a thing as TV. I mean --

> They just keep showing you

> The same pictures over and over.

> And when they talk they just make sounds

> That more or less synch up

> With their lips.

> That's what I think!

>

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

> Language! It's a virus!

>

> Well I dreamed there was an island

> That rose up from the sea

> And everybody on the island

> Was somebody from TV.

> And there was a beautiful view

> But nobody could see.

> Cause everybody on the island

> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!

>             Look at me! Look at me!

>

> Because they all lived on an island

> That rose up from the sea

> And everybody on the island

> Was somebody from the TV.

> And there was a beutiful view

> But nobody could see.

> Cause everybody on the island

> Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!

>             Look at me! Why?

>

> Paradise is exactly like

> Where you are right now

> Only much much better.

>

>                            "LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS

>                               FROM OUTER SPACE."

>                            -- William S. Burroughs

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:44:32 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Kerouac's disenchantment with 'Beat'

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

>

> >David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:

> >

> >> Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat

> >

> >

> >=== So did Kerouac himself.

>

> Untrue.  Inaccurate.

 

 

=== By the very end of Kerouac's life, I assure you he wanted no part of

the "Beat" term and publicly bemoaned his partial responsibilty for the

'counter-culture' it spawned. He was drifting away from buddhism and

relapsing back into catholicism, and made public statements supporting

the Vietnam war and right-wingers like William Buckley. It's sad, but

true. Jack was a walking nervous breakdown at this time, however, and

its not fair to judge him by the things he said or did towards the end.

 

All of this is pretty well known and it's out there if anyone wants to

look it up.

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - Berea KY

back from creepin' in the woods

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:31:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Exciting News

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I nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's

Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told

me that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It

perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so

 verklempt!

I was so excited I call my mother long distance from a payphone to tell

her. :)

~Nancy

 

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:50:14 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

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Edward Desautels wrote:

>

> Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

>

 

 

=== Some, however, stink more than others.

 

=-=-=-=-=

JSH

kentucky

=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:37:22 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwy Thomas <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Exciting News

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wow, nancy, congrats. i can imagine how thrilled i would be to get something

like that. =)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:41:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:34 AM 1/31/98 -0500, Ed wrote:

>

>Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

 

This next piece was taken from:

 

_Trip Trap_ by Jack Kerouac, Albert Saijo, and Lew Welch.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Roosevelt

        had a dirty asshole

        so we had

                Pearl Harbor

Hitler had a dirty ass

so we had Buchenwald

Senator McCarthy

        had a dirty asshole

        & he died

Not one cowboy

        in Texas

        has a clean asshole

        But there is one

                in Las Vegas

Alexander Pope

had a dirty asshole

T S Eliot prays for

        the dirty asshole

T S Eliot's fog

had a dirty asshole

 

The last time I saw Paris

        I had a dirty asshole

Pres Eisenhower

        plays golf

        with a dirty asshole

Not insult intended to

        his partner

      All we mean is,

wash your asshole

after you shit,

with water, clean,

      and you'll feel good

        & clean

Bishop Sheean's

      wild look

comes from a dirty

        asshole

Everybody in America

is walking around

with a dirty asshole

A little bit of water

        goes a long way

All of Stendhal

      can be understood

All of Stendhal

        results

>From a dirty asshole.

Santa Claus

   has a dirty asshole

Philip Lamantia

      could be taught

      to cleanse his asshole

I have no hope

      for the Senators

      or the Senatrix

Nor was Cleopatra clean

  Nor Vercingetorix

No Roman pickaninny

  outhoused wide.

Thou cleaneth

where food entereth

Why not attend the port

        of the leavings

All holes in the body

Shd be clean with water

        All holes baptized

        Holily

        Holy like li li lock

          All holes should be baptized

          because all hole are holy

                I am tired

                of this talk of holes

                For holes is where

                        my skin

                        is not

 

'Shit, Snyder,

  you know what

        they do in

        those monestaries

        --you'll come back

        with your asshole

                stretched

           the size

                of a wagon

                        tire'

                   said Rexroth

 

Thats a beautiful poem

--I mean fire

I am not bounded

by this bag of skin

nor bones skew me

        'I love Jesus'

        says the sign

    Are we still on holes?

Let our assholes be clean

    as the hole in the donut.

As the doors to our temple

Which sports

    One turning shoe

The asshole of Dixie

        is dirty

    Dixie has a dirty asshole

                Dulles died

                with a dirty asshole

                & went to Heaven

                        though

                      (innocent)

And I say

        a great vision

        of Little Orphan Annie

        eyes sightless as an asshole

          MacArthur returned

          to Manila

          with a dirty asshole

Hirohito rides his

                          white

                           horse

        with a dirty asshole

Hirohito's white horse

        has a dirty asshole

                Napolean on Elba

                                not clean

The final asshole line

    is

        Wash Thyself

We shoulda got

        Shirley Temple

           in there

Oh that man

        that arrests us

Will have

        a dirty asshole

That's an endless thing

Let's talk about shacks in Texas

        And the birds

          on seaweed

            wheat

                plains"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:42:58 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Aeronwy Thomas <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's disenchantment with 'Beat'

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my impression, from reading ann charters' profiles and others, that jack

enjoyed being right in the thick of the beat movement. what he was upset

abouyt seemed to be the way people judged his work. i think jack knew that the

beat movement would eventually pass, but he wanted his work to be regarded as

something more than just a fad. i'm not a scholar, just a layperson, so

correct me if i'm wrong, anyone! but i always thought that he wanted his work

to be judged by separate standards, and maybe to some extent himself. that may

be true. i read somewhere that jack was frustrated with the way the press

jumped on him to be the leader of the beat movement; that he hadn't even

invented it himself, but rather had heard it from someone on the streets on

nyc.

 

aeronwy

 

ps - whoa, my first significant post. whoo-ee =)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:09:09 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)

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Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>

> Wow! I really liked this. It seemed to have a rythym that flowed nice and

> easy. Is this a song or what?

 

 

=== It's a song from Laurie Anderson's "Home of The Brave" album, one of

three albums of hers that feature WSB.

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

J.S.Holland....KY

pondering ineffables

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:06:44 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Tom Wolfe

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so why was it that you can't go home again?  a jayhawk mentor used to

quote him and all these other folks to me.  some sunk in i guess.

 

listening to Bruce Springsteen sing Beat Woody guthrie's song "I Ain't

Got No Home In this World Anymore".

 

Do the Discipline DE sideways,

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:25:42 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn

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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> On the Road was called The Beat Generation for a long time.  The movie Pull

> My Daisy was one act of a play he wrote called the Beat Generation.  After

> On the Road became popular he made the recording Poetry for the Beat

> Generation.  He participated in a seminar on whether or not there was a

> beat generation with his position being of course there is.

 

=== No one is disputing that Kerouac was a pioneer of the term, or that

he supported the term at one time. At the end of his life, however, he

did an ideological u-turn.

 

 

 

> Kerouac later expressed his dismay at how his creation became twisted to

> mean different things.

 

=== Well, yes and no. He was dismayed, but he never considered Beat "his

creation". WSB is at the heart of Beat and yet has very little in common

with Kerouac.

 

 

 

> Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of

> the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like.

 

=== Assuming you mean Ed Sanders, how so? Wherein lies his 'usurption'??

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - the hills of KY

cursing a defective pencil sharpener

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:11:55 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Thomas Wolfe

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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,

race@MIDUSA.NET writes:

 

<< so why was it that you can't go home again?  a jayhawk mentor used to

 quote him and all these other folks to me.  some sunk in i guess.

  >>

 

It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom (Electric

Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.

 

Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains

everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for

itself.

 

MD

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:20:33 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

Mime-Version: 1.0

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In a message dated 1/31/98 8:11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, bonmark@WEBTV.NET

writes:

 

> 1. Does sex with teenage boys make you a

>  pedophile? Not in my book it doesn't

Is your book a dictionary?  If not, get one you idiot.

Dennis

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:20:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Thomas Wolfe

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Maggie Dharma wrote:

>

> In a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> race@MIDUSA.NET writes:

>

> << so why was it that you can't go home again?  a jayhawk mentor used to

>  quote him and all these other folks to me.  some sunk in i guess.

>   >>

>

> It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom (Electric

> Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.

>

> Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains

> everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for

> itself.

>

> MD

so you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool-aid with

ya?????

 

dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:45:37 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Exciting News

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.OSF.3.95.980131132914.11814A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

 

> I nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's

> Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told

> me that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It

> perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so

>  verklempt!

 

Don't want to put a damper on your excitement, but I picked up the

same book, first-edition hardback, brand-new, in the summer of '96 for

$7. It was so cheap because this edition has been remaindered. Which

means it's unlikely ever to have much resale value on the used book

market. (Of course, that's still a good deal, considering that the

original cover price was $27.50)

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:11:20 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

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mr desautels,

it is coming  to my awareness that you may have come to the wrong list. i=

 believe

the monty python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one line=

rs: i

would recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, the =

verbal

abuse department.

sincerely,

mc

 

Edward Desautels wrote:

 

> Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

>

> Ed

>

> At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

> >What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?

> >conceptualizing, my ass.

> >

> >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:

> >

> >> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I se=

e

> little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without

> conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile

> discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece

> doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Tak=

e to

> the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some

> aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the

> piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.

> >>

> >>

> >> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four ho=

urs

> handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read abo=

ut. :]

> >>

> >>

> >> Regards,

> >>

> >>

> >> Ed

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

> >>

> >> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list s=

erv

> but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of total=

ity

> of beat lit. and

> >>

> >> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?

> >>

> >> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i'v=

e

> beeen reading ginsberg for years.

> >>

> >> >mc

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >Edward Desautels wrote:

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.

> >>

> >> >>

> >>

> >> >> Ed

> >>

> >> >>

> >>

> >> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

> >>

> >> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) t=

hat

> >>

> >> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >Take my love, it is not true,

> >>

> >> >> >So let it tempt no body new;

> >>

> >> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh

> >>

> >> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;

> >>

> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> >>

> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,

> >>

> >> >> >To give to some poor poet old;

> >>

> >> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth

> >>

> >> >> >If his age would wear my youth;

> >>

> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> >>

> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind

> >>

> >> >> >Blow my body out of mind;

> >>

> >> >> >Take this heart to go with that

> >>

> >> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;

> >>

> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> >>

> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >Take the art which I bemoan

> >>

> >> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;

> >>

> >> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,

> >>

> >> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;

> >>

> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> >>

> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the gre=

atest

> >>

> >> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our

> >>

> >> >> >counterculture.

> >>

> >> >> > Maggie G.

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >> >_________________________________________________________

> >>

> >> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?

> >>

> >> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> >>

> >> >> >

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=D2*

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DA0

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DA0

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DA0

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DA0

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DAp

> >>

> >> >>

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DA=A5

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DB=04

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4=DB=04

> >>

> >> >>

>

>               =01=F4x8

> >>

> >> >

> >>

> >> <center>************************************************************

> >>

> >> <bigger>Edward Desautels

> >>

> >> 7 Hamilton Road

> >>

> >> Somerville, MA 02144

> >>

> >> edesaute@bbnplanet.com

> >>

> >> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html

> >>

> >>

> >> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,

> >>

> >> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."

> >>

> >> Jacques Rigaut

> >>

> >>

> </bigger>************************************************************</=

center>

> >>

> >

> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven =

For

> >Sure-JK

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:22:46 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

MIME-Version: 1.0

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              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"

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kudos to mr mike cakebread!

thanks for the trip trap trip.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:26:10 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Thomas Wolfe

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no, dave, you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool aid to me.

mc

 

David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:

 

> Maggie Dharma wrote:

> >

> > In a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> > race@MIDUSA.NET writes:

> >

> > << so why was it that you can't go home again?  a jayhawk mentor used to

> >  quote him and all these other folks to me.  some sunk in i guess.

> >   >>

> >

> > It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom

 (Electric

> > Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.

> >

> > Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains

> > everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for

> > itself.

> >

> > MD

> so you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool-aid with

> ya?????

>

> dbr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:38:48 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject:      Blaster II

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Blaster

 

Map blaster

Sound blaster

Master blaster

Bass blaster

Poetry blaster

Math Blaster

Sand blaster

Cap blaster

Disaster blaster

No blaster

Coffee blaster

Portland Blaster

Mortar blaster

Clinton blaster

Ice cream blaster

Blaster blaster

Zoroaster blaster

Blaster blaster blaster

Zarathustra blaster

Jazz blaster

Rocket blaster

Crap blaster

Rock blaster

Blast blaster

Blues blaster

Cappuccino blaster

Blasto blaster

Blust blaster

Poster blaster

Blaster

Blast.

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:39:10 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sanders Inquiry

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Gallaher wrote:

 

"Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of

the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."

-----------------------

can you elaborate on that? Sanders and Kerouac had a few things in common and

although that makes only a lil difference, where does Kerouac or his work say

or hint that Sanders "usurps" the beat label?

I'm guessing that you're talking about the book Sanders wrote, titled,"Tales

of Beatnik Glory, " and if this is correct, can you explain a bit? This is the

type of thing I'm thinking about right now. What kind of reactions do the core

Beats have to Sanders work? (On the back of this book I just mentioned,

Ginsberg praises the work, by the way.)

 

Drea

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:26:21 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus

In-Reply-To:  <34CF774A.1375@iclub.org>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

 

> > > When WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words, he

> > > must, qua writer, still use words.

>

> === Which is why I am extremely disappointed that WSB never took the

> next step into totally opaque communication, a la Joyce's "Finnegan's

> Wake".

 

If it became TOTALLY opaque, would it still be "communication" at all?

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:50:43 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: Thomas Wolfe

In-Reply-To:  <78676fc9.34d3777d@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

maggie says:

>...

>Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains

>everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for

>itself.

>

>MD

>

it's possible...(i read in the middle 70s' some capthers of

_Look Homeward Angel_ later i lost the book) and following in

early 80s' the vanity of DuluozmatchingIt...but what im' now

thinking is the title of the Wolfe's novel was mimetic with

the Walter Benjamin "Angelus Novus"?

something with a progressive touch but with the head looking back

to the past...an image of something...

                well

                it's interesting what does go on,

                and what doesn't go on

                that should,

                and the world's quite a sight

                spun through spiders and webs

                that catch us half asleep

                and do us in

                before we're even old enough

                to know we're through-- charles bukowski

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:17:05 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus

In-Reply-To:  <34D063C9.60FB@iclub.org>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

 

> === I didn't mean that it was opaque to the people actively taking part

> in the communication, of course; then it wouldn't be much of a

> communication.

>

>         No, I meant FW is opaque to those who don't speak the secret code,

> which would be most everyday citizens. FW is a rorschach test for the

> intelligentsia, a sort of encoded trivia quiz. To the average reader who

> does not understand the method of the writing, nor the literary,

> geographical, historical and biblical references and allusions, and who

> does not know how to break words down to their Latin roots, FW is a work

> written in secret code that they can never crack without the codex of

> education.

> [...]

>         This is, to me, the logical next step that WSB should have taken after

> his cutups, because they are in the same spirit of code, tongues, Cant

> language, cyphers. "Naked Lunch" made no sense to me as a child either.

> To WSB, however, and those in his circle of influence it made sense -

> more and more sense, in fact, the deeper inside that circle you were,

> and understood the references to his own life. The irony of all this is

> that even as WSB claimed to want to break down language, smashing all

> barriers and "systems of control", he was actually using the broken

> pieces to build his *own* barrier, his own barricade against the world.

 

I have my doubts about this "code" theory as applied to WSB. Granted,

if language cannot be "totally opaque" (else it wouldn't be capable of

communicating at all), nor totally transparent (else why would it be

needed at all, if the things themselves could be seen so clearly on

their own?)--is a "code" really the only other alternative?

 

It seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you

have outlined. A "code" can be deciphered straightforwardly with a

key, i.e. a set of background assumptions, history of use, known

context, etc.--that is, simple facts. So, to the extent that

Joyce's work can be deciphered *simply* by referring to some fact

which may be discovered by looking in an encyclopedia or other

reference work, it is essentially of interest only to trivia buffs

(this goes for Thomas Pynchon too). But I think what WSB was trying to

do goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*

significance that cannot be deciphered like a code. In other words, I

don't think there is some independently known reality which can simply

be susbstituted for what he says (which is what deciphering a code

amounts to). What exactly this significance is, and how it's brought

about, is something I'm still groping towards, and is still just an

intuition (albeit a powerful one)--but if WSB's work were just

reducible to its context, it would indeed be essentially

uninteresting. Even though he may not have been entirely successful in

what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the

right track, that *something* happened here. I suspect too that if it

did succeed, thus success would not take the form of something like a

fact, and might very well be missed completely by someone looking for

"facts" (which is the only thing a code can ever communicate)....

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:27:25 -0600

Reply-To:     cawilkie@comic.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

Comments: cc: jholland@ICLUB.ORG

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>

> Subject:

>         the scary WSB

>   Date:

>         Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:43:32 +0100

>   From:

>         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

>

>

> Cathy Wilkie wrote:

> >

> > thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so

> > scary to me anymore...

>

> and Maggie Dharma wrote:

>

> > You all have given me a desire

> > to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!

>

>

>

> === Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:

> what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'?  I'm just curious.

> Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't

> recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted Morgan,

> the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of

> WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.

 

 

 

 

Jeff:

 

I think it is mostly this:  my introduction to beat lit started with "on

the road" by Kerouac, and went on from there.  I've always leaned a

little more towards his style of writing--the overly emotional feelings,

the joy in the little things in life, the small moments in your life

that have such an impact on who you become....

 

bearing that in mind, to switch from that view of beat lit to

burroughs--tough.  what i've read about burroughs in the various

biographies i've read essentially boil him down to one thing--he was a

freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.  I've always claimed

ignorance when it comes to the subject of burroughs.  i know who he is

what he's written and all, but as far as reading his work itself, i've

always been scared to read it.  Maybe it's a fear of discovering how the

mind works, perhaps it's the thought that i will discover things about

my own mind that i would rather not have learned.  Don't rightly know, i

guess is what i'm saying.

 

I began getting over that fear when i bought "kerouac-kicks joy

darkness".  I thought burroughs voice sounded nice, so i started paying

more attention to what people were saying about him on here.  MOst of

the conversations, especially the wittgenstein-burroughs discussion, was

compleeeettly over my head.  But the recent discussion has made sense to

me.

 

I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to

grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know

'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.  They

unconciously exclude people like me who want to learn, who want to know

more, but can't understand their highly academic pseudo-language.  I can

understand most concepts, having it put in layperson's terms helps me at

times.

 

So:  i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my ignorance on

burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to

understand.  Anyone out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????

 

 

love ya all,

cathy

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:50:26 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "POMES, PENNY EACH." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Ed Sanders inquiry

 

Drea,

 

I am a big Ed Sanders fan, let me know what you find. Sounds like you have most

of what I already have but if I see anything of interest, Ill pass it on. I doo

have an original of one of his old Beat Items catalog, the one that has

Ginsberg's cock dent in a jar of vaseline in it for sale. Let me know if you

want a xerox. Good luck, Sanders is great.

 

Dave B.

 

 

 

"BREITHAU@KENYON.EDU"

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:57:31 -0600

Reply-To:     Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.95q.980128003504.22606A-100000@landen.math.uwaterloo.ca>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:

 

> > You know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often

> > in connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much

> > more organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not

> > least because N also cited HiS's motto: ["Nothing is true;

> > everything is permitted"]

>

> Although one would have a hard time considering Burroughs a "Christian

> free spirit", he certainly strays into the proposition and its

> labyrinthine consequences in _The Cities of the Red Night_, where each

> city holds a different convolution of the proposition.

 

Yes, the fact that WSB has entered this labyrinth is what makes me

think that an examination of Nietzsche (who also entered it) with WSB

in mind might be more fruitful than the comparison to Wittgenstein,

who had only Bertrand Russell and GE Moore as background.

 

> > So if we are to avoid both this situation, as

> > well as the claim that WSB simply contradicts himself by *writing*

> > about the end of language, we would need a different, more powerful

> > interpretive framework: N's conception of self-overcoming, perhaps.

>

> I'm not sure that a "different interpretive framework" is necessary.

 

Well, I mean "different from the one provided by Wittgenstein". I hope

I have sufficiently established this by now.

 

> Burroughs was not writing *about* the end of language, he was writing to

> *bring about* the end of language.

 

Surely these two need not be mutually exclusive.

 

But you may very well be right in that what his writing *does* to

*bring about* something like the end of language is probably more

interesting than his explicit pronouncements *about* language. What

WSB says explicitly *about* what he is doing is often contradictory:

 

1) How is the "factualism" of his early work (primarily) supposed to

hang together with the "Nothing is true...." position?

 

2) [When talking about Korzybsky] He claims that either/or logic is a

basic mistake of western thought, but then practically in the same

breath insists that the word is not the object to which it refers--

which is surely an either/or distinction if there ever was one.

 

It's just not possible to be "against" either/or logic, since being

"against" something is possible only on the basis of an either/or:

EITHER either/or OR not either/or. I am convinced that either/or logic

is necessary, at at least *some* level. AT THE VERY LEAST, we need

THIS either/or: either something is different from something else in

some way, or it is not. If it's not possible to tell whether something

is different from anything else or not, then reality as whole would

just melt down into one big undifferentiated blob.

 

 

What we need to ask here is, I think, What is it exactly about

language that is the problem? We can say, "It is a method of control",

but what is it about language that makes such a thing possible? (And

why should we consider "control" as something to be avoided?)

 

The problem is, simply, that language is something *different* than

what it is "about". The word is not the thing itself. It is this

difference that makes mistakes, illusions, and frauds possible. But on

the other hand, it seems to me, this difference is *also* what makes

independent life (i.e., subjectivity) possible. There is no "I"

without this difference; without this difference, there is no self in

terms of which anything could be determined to be a mistake, illusion,

or fraud (that is, a threat of some sort). In other words, the "self",

to be a self at all, has to be determinably different from what it

perceives. For something like "perception" to be possible at all, we

must *repeat*, in a way, whatever it is we are perceiving, take it

into ourselves--make ourselves a "universal" in a way (cf. what you

say below, which seems to imply that our bodies are universals).

Something absolutely singular, if it existed, could

never be perceived at all or communicate with anything. An attack

against language, therefore, also amounts to attacking things like

perception, memory, communication--in fact, *experience in general*.

Which would be quite a radical project, which WSB points toward when

he talks about actual mutuations of what we are....whatever results

from all this may very well be unrecognizable.....

 

So what I am trying to dig out of WSB's work is, not some

straightforward "attack against language", but to see if perhaps what

it accomplishes is the introduction of a third, unassimilable element

into all this, one not reducible to either an objective fact or an

enclosed subjectivity. Does it do this? I don't know....maybe. Maybe

it accomplishes this simply by exhibiting the essential

uncontrolableness of language....something about language that

exceeds the dichotomy mentioned above....something that makes this

dichotmomy possible and even necessary in the first place but is not

captured by it........

 

So finally, we need to be careful to about declaring that WSBs project

has "failed"....for what it aimed to do may not be expressibile as a

"fact".....

 

> Burroughs' prison-break ultimately fails, although in systematically

> disrupting the syntactic and authorial basis on which writing rests he

> ruptured the tradition of discourse. The problem is that the rupture is

> only temporary (time-bound), for the universal discourse absorbs the

> singularity, and language rules again: in Burroughs' formulation the Word

> forces us into our bodies, inscribes us in shit and Time, and there ain't

> no escape lessen you figure out how to get into Space.

 

hope I haven't been totally obscure,

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:01:14 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Exciting News

In-Reply-To:  <52cb3c8e.34d36f64@aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

I also found a copy of Dharma Lion for 12 bucks. Has anyone read this

bio? Is it any good? I forget who the author is,though.

On Sat, 31 Jan

1998, Aeronwy Thomas wrote:

 

> wow, nancy, congrats. i can imagine how thrilled i would be to get something

> like that. =)

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:03:32 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Exciting News

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.PMDF.3.95.980131133953.571026136A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Not at all, Jeff. Im still way excited!On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor

wrote:

 

> On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

>

> > I nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's

> > Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told

> > me that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It

> > perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so

> >  verklempt!

>

> Don't want to put a damper on your excitement, but I picked up the

> same book, first-edition hardback, brand-new, in the summer of '96 for

> $7. It was so cheap because this edition has been remaindered. Which

> means it's unlikely ever to have much resale value on the used book

> market. (Of course, that's still a good deal, considering that the

> original cover price was $27.50)

>

> *******

> Jeff Taylor

> taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

> *******

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:49:38 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Jeff Taylor wrote:

>

> I have my doubts about this "code" theory as applied to WSB.

Granted,

> if language cannot be "totally opaque" (else it wouldn't be capable of

> communicating at all), nor totally transparent (else why would it be

> needed at all, if the things themselves could be seen so clearly on

> their own?)--is a "code" really the only other alternative?

 

=== No....it's no theory, and need not be so complicated : it's just a

matter of course that Joyce's FW and WSB's cut-ups require some

adjustment of the average reader's way of reading text, i.e. from linear

to non-linear. I wouldn't compartmentalize all of literature down to the

three options you just named.

 

 

 

>

> It seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you

> have outlined.

 

=== Exactly. That's the point I was making.

 

 

 

 

> (this goes for Thomas Pynchon too).

 

=== good point - "Gravity's Rainbow" would fall under this category.

 

 

 

 

> But I think what WSB was trying to

> do goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*

> significance that cannot be deciphered like a code.

 

=== Oh, I agree; I never meant to infer that I thought WSB (or Joyce,

for that matter) was consciously writing in code. But in a very real

sense, there *is* a code involved into learning to get into certain

writers or certain books, and WSB's is far more complex than, say, Jack

London or something. Without thinking of it as such, the diligent reader

is learning WSB's codewords as s/he delves deeper : Tangiers, Kiki, boy,

junk-sick, control, Pan, Dutch Schultz, Interzone, fix, croaker, script,

Johnsons, shits, etc......since there is a conceptual continuity that

weaves between all WSB's work, the more the seeker reads, the more

illuminated s/he becomes. Put less pompously, "Bill talks about a lot

o'stuff ya might not unnerstand at first, but eventually you start to

figger out where he's comin' from".

 

 

 

> Even though he may not have been entirely successful in

> what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the

> right track, that *something* happened here.

 

=== Again, I agree. What, then, do you think of my statement that

started all this, that I wish WSB had tried for something as dense and

ambitious as Finnegans Wake, adding his cut-up principle to the formula?

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - Kentucky

potato chips and Sonny Rollins

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:51:45 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: WSB, Language etc..

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

Jeff says:

 

"The problem is, simply, that language is something *different* than

what it is "about". The word is not the thing itself. It is this

difference that makes mistakes, illusions, and frauds possible. But on

the other hand, it seems to me, this difference is *also* what makes

independent life (i.e., subjectivity) possible. There is no "I"

without this difference; without this difference, there is no self in

terms of which anything could be determined to be a mistake, illusion,

or fraud (that is, a threat of some sort). In other words, the "self",

to be a self at all, has to be determinably different from what it

perceives. For something like "perception" to be possible at all, we

must *repeat*, in a way, whatever it is we are perceiving, take it

into ourselves--make ourselves a "universal" in a way (cf. what you

say below, which seems to imply that our bodies are universals).

Something absolutely singular, if it existed, could

never be perceived at all or communicate with anything. "

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------

 

 

Is this Derridas????? sure sounds like it.

Drea

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:03:15 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      A cut-up in Holland

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

 

WSB started this way, (didn't he?)

 

listening to Lester Young, 1944 stuff

thinking about sandwiches

kentucky

kentucky

somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky

somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky

somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky

somewhere in the wilderness of Kentucky

meditating on Japanese candy

kentucky

cursing a defective pencil sharpener

potato chips and Sonny Rollins

kentucky

back from creepin' in the woods

going mountain climbing today

drinking Amaretto for Breakfast

somewhere in KY listening to Louis Jordan

....................................................................

copyright 1998, Irene D'Arma (go ahead, Jeffrey, try and sue me...)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:27:53 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Cathy: some WSB observations

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Cathy Wilkie wrote:

 

> he was a

> freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.

 

=== it's all relative, though....back in the day, Kerouac was considered

a freaky-type dude who thought way-out thoughts, such as:

 

" Las mujeres blancas son la mierda" [white women are shit] I shudder to

hear it, whole hordes of Mongolians shall overrun the western world

saying that and they're only talking about the poor little blonde woman

in the drugstore who's doing her best - By God, if I were Sultan! I

wouldn't allow it! I'd arrange for something better! But it's only a

dream! Why fret? The world wouldn't exist if it didn't have the power to

liberate itself. Suck! Suck! suck at the teat of Heaven! Dog is God

spelled backwards." (from "Desolation Angels")

 

WSB is far freakier and way-out, of course, but perhaps that's his

position - the next zen koan in line to untangle after conquering

Kerouac.

 

 

 

 

 

> I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to

> grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know

> 'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.

 

=== I'm pretty pretentious myself, but it keeps me warm in the winter

months. But I agree, I can't stand literary snobs either, especially in

a field that was supposed to be confrontational with things literary and

snobby. I never went to college, period. (Well, Art school for a week

but I dropped out, then enrolled at Eastern Kentucky University and

dropped out the first day).

 

 

 

 

> So:  i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated my ignorance on

> burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to

> understand.  Anyone out there wanna teach me more about burroughs?????

 

=== I think everyone should read his biography by Ted Morgan, "Literary

Outlaw", before reading a word of his own works. If you're already big

on Kerouac and Ginsberg, reading  "The Letters of William S.Burroughs,

1945-1959" is a good way to slip into the groove - most of the letters

are to Ginsberg and many are to Kerouac....."The Yage Letters" also

includes some of these letters, with Ginsberg's replies and some

drawings by Ginsberg.....

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland, Kentucky

"here we come, all drunk a-gaaaaain..."

- - Memphis Jug Band, 1930

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:44:33 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: A cut-up in Holland

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Maggie Dharma wrote:

 

> (go ahead, Jeffrey, try and sue me...)

 

 

=== heh....I'll wait till you publish it somewhere....better ask for a

big advance.

 

I just read it out loud, doing my Jack Kerouac imitation, and by golly,

it sounds like it has "it"......maybe I'll read it at my next

reading...(go ahead, Maggie, try and sue me...)

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Kentucky

Ah! Sunflower, weary of time...um...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:50:47 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Bruce Rhaesa <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Organization: smiling small thoughts

Subject:      Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

actually everyone doesn't have an asshole though most have opinions.  i

knew this nurse named Nancy who was born .... well we won't go into

that! dbr (oops SCOPE!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

Marie Countryman wrote:

>=20

> mr desautels,

> it is coming  to my awareness that you may have come to the wrong list.=

 i believe

> the monty python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one li=

ners: i

> would recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, th=

e verbal

> abuse department.

> sincerely,

> mc

>=20

> Edward Desautels wrote:

>=20

> > Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.

> >

> > Ed

> >

> > At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:

> > >What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?

> > >conceptualizing, my ass.

> > >

> > >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:

> > >

> > >> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I =

see

> > little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without

> > conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile

> > discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piec=

e

> > doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. T=

ake to

> > the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some

> > aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has t=

he

> > piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four =

hours

> > handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read a=

bout. :]

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Regards,

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> Ed

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:

> > >>

> > >> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list=

 serv

> > but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of tot=

ality

> > of beat lit. and

> > >>

> > >> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?

> > >>

> > >> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i=

've

> > beeen reading ginsberg for years.

> > >>

> > >> >mc

> > >>

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >> >Edward Desautels wrote:

> > >>

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.

> > >>

> > >> >>

> > >>

> > >> >> Ed

> > >>

> > >> >>

> > >>

> > >> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:

> > >>

> > >> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949)=

 that

> > >>

> > >> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take my love, it is not true,

> > >>

> > >> >> >So let it tempt no body new;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh

> > >>

> > >> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> > >>

> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,

> > >>

> > >> >> >To give to some poor poet old;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth

> > >>

> > >> >> >If his age would wear my youth;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> > >>

> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind

> > >>

> > >> >> >Blow my body out of mind;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take this heart to go with that

> > >>

> > >> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> > >>

> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take the art which I bemoan

> > >>

> > >> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,

> > >>

> > >> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;

> > >>

> > >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,

> > >>

> > >> >> > But leave my bones alone.

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the g=

reatest

> > >>

> > >> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our

> > >>

> > >> >> >counterculture.

> > >>

> > >> >> > Maggie G.

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >> >_________________________________________________________

> > >>

> > >> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?

> > >>

> > >> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

> > >>

> > >> >> >

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=D2*

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DA0

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DA0

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DA0

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DA0

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DAp

> > >>

> > >> >>

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DA=A5

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DB=04

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4=DB=04

> > >>

> > >> >>

> >

> >               =01=F4x8

> > >>

> > >> >

> > >>

> > >> <center>**********************************************************=

**

> > >>

> > >> <bigger>Edward Desautels

> > >>

> > >> 7 Hamilton Road

> > >>

> > >> Somerville, MA 02144

> > >>

> > >> edesaute@bbnplanet.com

> > >>

> > >> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html

> > >>

> > >>

> > >> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,

> > >>

> > >> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."

> > >>

> > >> Jacques Rigaut

> > >>

> > >>

> > </bigger>************************************************************=

</center>

> > >>

> > >

> > >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heave=

n For

> > >Sure-JK

> > >

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:14:45 +0000

Reply-To:     tkc@zipcon.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tom Christopher <tkc@ZIPCON.COM>

Organization: art language wholsale retail

Subject:      Re: Sanders Inquiry

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Andrea Moore wrote:

>

> Gallaher wrote:

>

> "Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of

> the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."

> -----------------------

> can you elaborate on that? ...<snip>...

> Drea

 

 

i dunno that i agree.. ginsberg was friendly with saunders, who taught

early on at naropa.  keouac was a little negative about the next

generation, but he thought it was cool when elvis appeared on ed

sullivan for the first time, and later said dylan was ok, so i don't

know that he'd have disliked ed.  i understand the statement in the

sense that saunders could've represented the 'younger generation' which

always has it easier than the pioneers of the previous generation, and

is never quite as bright or authentic, and i guess kerouac wasn't too

impressed with the prankster scene, either, but i think one on one,

kerouac would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they

ever meet?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:31:37 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Exciting News

Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>

In-Reply-To:  <34D3CF6D.2C1@sk.sympatico.ca>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Adrien-

Living in NYC definitely has its advantages. For those of you who live in

the area, check out the Housing Works Used Book Store and Cafe. Its on

Crosby, between Houston and whatever street comes after Houston, in Soho.

Its a great little place.

 On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Adrien Begrand wrote:

 

> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:

> >

> >I also found a copy of Dharma Lion for 12 bucks. Has anyone read this

> >bio? Is it any good? I forget who the author is,though.

>

> Nancy,

>

> I think it's the most definitive Ginsberg biography out there. It's as

> comprehensive and well-written as the Kerouac bio Memory babe. You're so

> lucky to be finding these books for so cheap!

>

> Adrien

>

 

The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For

Sure-JK

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:05:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus

In-Reply-To:  <34D36F57.2E95@iclub.org>

MIME-version: 1.0

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:

 

> > It seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you

> > have outlined.

>

> === Exactly. That's the point I was making.

 

Well, the key word in what I said was "ordinary", that *ordinary*

language (or more accurately, the ordinary understanding of language)

is a code--BUT that WSB's writing (or at least what's most interesting

and significant about it) is NOT "ordinary" language and therefore not

adequately understood as a "code".

 

> > But I think what WSB was trying to

> > do goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*

> > significance that cannot be deciphered like a code.

>

> === Oh, I agree; I never meant to infer that I thought WSB (or Joyce,

> for that matter) was consciously writing in code. But in a very real

> sense, there *is* a code involved into learning to get into certain

> writers or certain books, and WSB's is far more complex than, say, Jack

> London or something. Without thinking of it as such, the diligent reader

> is learning WSB's codewords as s/he delves deeper : Tangiers, Kiki, boy,

> junk-sick, control, Pan, Dutch Schultz, Interzone, fix, croaker, script,

> Johnsons, shits, etc......since there is a conceptual continuity that

> weaves between all WSB's work, the more the seeker reads, the more

> illuminated s/he becomes. Put less pompously, "Bill talks about a lot

> o'stuff ya might not unnerstand at first, but eventually you start to

> figger out where he's comin' from".

 

I agree, too, that there is a code here, but it's not a problem just

in *certain* writers or *certain* books. There is, no doubt, a code

involved in the inderstanding of *any* language--at some level. BUT

the point I was trying to make is that the deciphering of the code

(insofar as the coded utterance is always correlated with--and can

thus be deciphered via--some referent, whether object or concept) in

fact tell us little or nothing about the work's real significance,

what it's really *about*. The determination of what objects or

concepts are being referred to or invoked amounts only to the

statement of the problem, not to its solution.

 

> > Even though he may not have been entirely successful in

> > what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the

> > right track, that *something* happened here.

>

> === Again, I agree. What, then, do you think of my statement that

> started all this, that I wish WSB had tried for something as dense and

> ambitious as Finnegans Wake, adding his cut-up principle to the formula?

 

Well, as is perhaps obvious by now, I don't think it would have added

very much, insofar as the "density" of JJ is nothing more than a long

series of obscure allusions and references to little-known

facts--whether these facts be objective ones or the record of some

stream-of-consciousness dialogue.

 

Maybe this will help more: here is a quotation from Kierkegaard, in

which he is explaining how to interpret Socrates:

 

   There is a painting that shows Napoleon's grave. Two tall

   trees shade the grave. There is nothing else to see in the work,

   and the unsophisticated observer sees nothing else. Between the two

   trees is an empty space; as the eye follows the outline, suddenly

   Napoleon himself emerges from this nothing, and now it is

   impossible to have him disappear again....So also with Socrates.

   One hears his words in the same way one sees the trees; his words

   mean what they say, just as the trees are trees. There is not one

   single syllable that gives a hint of any other interpretation, just

   as there is not one single line that suggest Napoleon; and yet this

   empty space, this nothing, is what hides what is most important.

 

So by deciphering Socrates' code, one gets only the trees, and may

still miss completely the big picture, what it's really about. The

code *itself* gives no hint of what is most important....one must see

beyond it. Likewise with WSB, and perhaps every other significant

writer....one must see beyond the details, try to see the larger

picture it makes.

 

*******

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

*******

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 21:39:01 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Sanders Inquiry

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 06:14 PM 1/31/98 +0000, Tom Christopher wrote:

 

<snip>

>kerouac would've respected saunders' talent and

>brains....ah...did they ever meet?

 

Yup, on "The Firing Line" with William F. Buckley.

Kerouac also contributed to Sanders' magazine

_Fuck You_.  I believe the television incident

was the first formal meeting.

 

Mike

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:16:17 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>

Subject:      Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jeff Taylor wrote:

 

> BUT that WSB's writing (or at least what's most interesting

> and significant about it) is NOT "ordinary" language and therefore not

> adequately understood as a "code".

 

=== maybe I've had too much Amaretto tonight and the bullet-memes are

sailing right over the glass on my head, but it seems to me that the

less ordinary a language is, the more code-like it is, in that the

average reader must strive harder because the key is more encoded, and

thus, understand fully what has been written.

 

 

 

 

> There is, no doubt, a code

> involved in the inderstanding of *any* language--at some level.

 

=== Oh, sure, that's been my contention all along too, that language =

code.

 

 

 

> the point I was trying to make is that the deciphering of the code

> (insofar as the coded utterance is always correlated with--and can

> thus be deciphered via--some referent, whether object or concept) in

> fact tell us little or nothing about the work's real significance

 

=== well, this would be purely subjective.

 

 

 

 

> The determination of what objects or

> concepts are being referred to or invoked amounts only to the

> statement of the problem, not to its solution.

 

=== I see what you're saying here, but often the medium really IS the

message. The ideas one gleans from WSB's work, cut-up or not, are very

subjective and open to interpretation, yet zumtimes a banana ist chust a

banana. I think WSB believed that by rearranging his words and words of

others in just the right way, he was setting in motion something that

could be alternately compared to an alchemical formula, a codex, a magic

spell of sorts - that imparted information that could not be otherwise

conveyed by remotely linear means. Such WSB-induced satoris are not

immediately evident; I didn't realize how drastically WSB changed the

way I think until years later.

 

 

 

 

 

> Well, as is perhaps obvious by now, I don't think it would have added

> very much, insofar as the "density" of JJ is nothing more than a long

> series of obscure allusions and references to little-known

> facts--whether these facts be objective

 

=== aha, but reread WSB's essay on the nature of coincidence. I have no

doubt that if WSB were taking part in this conversation, he would say

something like "nothing is obscure under quan-tum physics, all obscure

references are frrrraught with im-portance.....any given sentence is

denser with in-formation thaaaan any. man. dreams. "

 

 

 

 

> So by deciphering Socrates' code, one gets only the trees, and may

> still miss completely the big picture, what it's really about. The

> code *itself* gives no hint of what is most important

 

=== Right. Or to use a simpler analogy, learning the symbols in Chinese

(a herculean task at that) still doesn't mean you understand Chinese,

because they only represent phonetic shapes - you still have to learn

what the Chinese words formed by the symbols *mean*.

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Jeffrey Scott Holland - Ky

my head hurts

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:49:00 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: the scary WSB

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First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not

wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece and

many of other parts of the world. If they consent to it's not wrong.

Secondly sex with a teenage boy is different than that of a prepubesent

child. A young child is totaly nonacceptable. A teenager is

physiologicaly ready for sexual intercourse. A young child is not. As

far as I know William S. Burroughs only had sex with teenage boys.

Therfore he is not a pedophile. Reading this I hope you will see the

idot is you,Denny. I hope this was enlightening for you.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:09:46 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sanders Inquiry etc..

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Tom wrote:

 

"but i think one on one,

kerouac would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they

ever meet?"

----------------------------------------------

 

Kerouac and Sanders did meet. Sanders lived in New York (and roomed with J.C.

Holmes, in fact), and supposedly Kerouac and bar buddies would come over over

and crash into Sanders' family life quite often. (It  was all in good humor,

though) Sanders worked and had kids and all that, so he wasn't as into the

Kerouac drunken wandering bar to bar thing. I learned of all this from some

letters from Kerouac to John Holmes.

 

Also, Sanders really wasn't  a part of the Pranksters thing. He was a fug and

a member of the yippie thing, but i think that's after Kerouac was in his

weird state--at home with his mom and cats and TV.

 

Drea

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:21:51 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      WSB and pedophilia?

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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,

bonmark@WEBTV.NET writes:

 

<< First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not

 wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece >>

 

Mark,

 

This is a difficult topic to make generalizations about, but I think if some

are going to be made, they should be made in favor of childhood, however long

that lasts, and also in favor of better, more mature judgment on the part of

adults.

 

A lot of teenaged girls are of legal age, sexually speaking, but they are not

in full possession of the maturity required to make decisions about sexual

consent. As a result, many are exploited and a whole shitload get pregnant.

Except for the pregnant part, the identical is true for teenaged boys.

 

There are also a lot of reasons why kids might consent to sex or actually be

groomed for sex with older people. Many of those reasons are self-destructive,

or relate to low self-esteem or a life-pattern of sexual abuse and/or

exploitation.

 

Your average teenage kid, if sexually active, is looking for a partner who's

on the same level. A child who seeks out an adult for sex is probably not

really seeking sex, but to fulfill some horrible prophecy about him or herself

that was learned in childhood abusive situations. It's just not natural for

people of such vast age differences WHERE THE LEVEL OF MATURITY AND POWER is

so inequitable for sex to exist. Nor, in my opinion, is it good.

 

What I'm saying is that if two people have sex, there should be completely

equal awareness of what is happening. Otherwise, it's not truly "consenting."

A person who hasn't even qualified for a driver's license or is not yet

considered mature enough to cast a vote should also not be a candidate for sex

with someone significantly older. That's predatory.

 

Lastly, adults should know better. Even if a child wanted to have sex, or

appeared to want to have sex, a mature, rational adult response would be to

say, "I'm flattered, but this is the only time you have to be a kid and it

will never come again. I'm not going to take that away from you."

 

It's something best judged on a case-by-case basis, of course, but Lolita was

not for real; just the fantasy of dirty old men. A child is a child, and there

is no magic age when that stops and adulthood begins, even though a rip-

roaring, hormone-driven sex drive may also exist. It's much more complicated

than the argument you've laid out here, I think.

 

Speaking from stolen innocence here,

Maggie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:35:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: WSB and pedophilia?

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

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Let me say a few things. First it depends on the individual not the age

group. Maybe some teenagers are mature enough,some are not.

The real thing I was trying to get at was WSB really a child molester?

This was what I was trying to determine,not a course in ethics.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:48:10 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: WSB and pedophilia?

Mime-Version: 1.0

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In a message dated 31-Jan-98 8:37:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,

bonmark@WEBTV.NET writes:

 

<< The real thing I was trying to get at was WSB really a child molester? >>

 

And I have to say I honestly can't answer this, because I don't know enough

about his sex life. Certainly, the best-qualified to answer this would be any

young men he did have sex with.

 

Some of his lovers were 40 or 50 years younger than he but entirely able to

consent. I haven't heard any stories about now-grown men who felt abused or

molested by Burroughs (or Ginsberg, for that matter). It is a distasteful

subject to me, I'll admit, especially because of that NAMBLA connection. The

entire concept of "man-boy love" is, in my opinion, just a way of saying, "I

want to fuck a child."

 

There are a lot of ugly things one sees when one turns the lens to focus on

the entire canvas of another person's life. Probably, attempting to speculate

about this subject won't do any good. Possibly, it'll look even uglier as a

result.

 

I don't know, I can't answer. I hope it wasn't inappropriate, what he did,

what Ginsberg did. Who does know? Who can answer this question? Maybe this

list can't.

 

Maggie

 



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