=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:43:32 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: the scary WSB
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Cathy
Wilkie wrote:
>
>
thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so
>
scary to me anymore...
and
Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
You all have given me a desire
> to
read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
===
Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:
what is
it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'?
I'm just curious.
Is it
the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't
recommend
highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted Morgan,
the
greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of
WSB as
a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
listening
to Lester Young, 1944 stuff
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:51:38 -0500
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From: Bob Lewis <kokupokit@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: blaster
particle
man,
particle
man.
particle
man meets blaster man.
oh
sorry-
they
might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:52:21 EST
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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In a
message dated 30-Jan-98 6:31:30 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jholland@ICLUB.ORG
writes:
<<
what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'? I'm just curious.
Is it the horrific imagery in his 60's
work, >>
yeah,
more or less. I haven't felt "invited" in to his prose like I usually
do
with
writers. There's no doubt he affects or otherwise puts out there a "dark
side."
And reading him out of context, i.e., in modern times as opposed to way
back
when he originally wrote, he feels somewhat dated to me, out of step
with,
certainly, heterosexuality and women as well as heroin use.
of
course, I'm just talking off the top of my head. When he died last summer I
visited
a bunch of his tribute sites and employed the "cut-up machine" I
found
at one
of them to see if there was any way I could understand him or produce
anything
like what he wrote, or even get a feel for him. I couldn't.
But the
discussion on Beat-L lately has been very interesting and has armed me
with
ideas to try him again. So I will.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:04:05 EST
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: some thoughts
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I'm
probably going to sign off the list pretty soon, not because I don't like
it, but
for other reasons that have only to do with myself and are of no
interest
to anyone. And I wanted to say something, make an observation before
I go.
I also
am subscribed to the Bukowski list, and if I get one piece of mail from
that
group a week, that's a full schedule for all those geniuses and barflies.
It's
very different from this list in that regard, and good, bad or
indifferent,
when a post comes from the Buk list, it is about Bukowski and
nothing
else.
It's
only an observation, not a conclusion, but it seems to me that people on
this
list post occasional thoughtful, soul-searching questions and theories
that
make for great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
discussed,
and someone posts original prose or poetry instead and that gets
discussed.
Remember, I'm not really making a judgment here.
Maybe
we (meaning the general population here) are not qualified or interested
enough
to make a thread last very long or really profit from it; I don't know,
I
really don't, I'm just saying maybe. I know I didn't comment a bunch of
times
because I didn't know what to say, but I was hoping really hard someone
else
would comment, and I'd learn something. Then when I had some
information/knowledge,
I did post it, and hope people learned from that and
enjoyed
it.
Anyway,
it's quality, not quantity, that I've enjoyed here, and I'll
undoubtedly
sign up again eventually (I'm not gone yet, though, so don't give
away my
seat!).
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:22:50 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
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Bob
Lewis wrote:
> oh
sorry-
>
they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
===
Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I
Palindrome
I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming
from
Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your
Racist
Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",
"Birdhouse
in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
digging
on Blind Willie McTell
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:18:40 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Aeronwy Thomas
<Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: blaster
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and
don't forget ice-cream/coffee blasters
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:39:34 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders inquiry
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Jeffrey
Scott Holland says,
"I don't wanna open up what is probably
an old tired thread here (I
just
hopped this train last week), but Ginsberg considered Sanders a
"legit"
beat and so do I. Of course, I use a
very wide and inclusive
definition
of the term."
------------------------
I
agree, Holland, but I just subscribed to this list and for some reason I
expected
a bunch of comments that don't support Sanders' beat status. I'm glad
that
you brought Ginsberg's consideration up. I wish my thesis advisors were
as cool
about using the very wide and inclusive definition of the term,
"Beat."
I'm going to review my data and look for Ginsberg's statements.
Perhaps
it will help me understand the realtionship more clearly.
Thanks,
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:48:12 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: New Millenium Questions
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I found
this wonderful list of questions in Chicago Review, Fall 97,
Also
has a wonderful interview with Robert Duncan by Robert Peters who
listmemebers
have heard of as a friend of Charles Plymell's (much missed
former
list-member) and mine, and a great article on Jack Spicer and his
circle
by former (and missed) listmember Kevin Killian and Lew
Ellingham.
This is
by Paul Hoover, editor of the Norton Postmodern Anthology.
THE NEW
MILLENIUM:
FIFTY STATEMENTS
ON LITERATURE AND CULTURE
(AGREE
OR DISAGREE)
1. The
word "consumer" has replaced the word "citizen" in most
forms of
discourse.
2.
Traditional culture is the enemy of consumerism.
3.
Media culture collaborates with consumerism to confuse and intimidate
the
average literate citizen.
4.
Postmodern theory was created to confuse and intimidate the average
literate
citizen.
5.
Avant-gardes are a necessary aspect of late capitalism.
6.
Poetry has the same connection to social class that it had under
aristocratic
social orders.
7. The
erotic allure of narrative lies in the courtship of the author
and
reader, usually involving the courtly
deference of the former to
the
later. The eroticism of non-narrative lies in the shared rufusal of
normal
relations.
8. The
mind can only conceive of uncertainty as a certainty--in other
words
as an image. But images are of interest
only when they
communicate
an uncertainty.
9.
Poems are entirely factual.
10. The
list, or series, is the major organizing priciple of writing.
11. The out of sequence series is the organizing
principle of most
avant-garde
writing.
12. The "new" in art is always
imported from another culture.
13.
Annihilation is a form of flattery.
14. There is more difference between one and zero
than one and one
million.
15.
Poetry is a rumor told by the truth.
16. Even at their most fantastic, our thoughts
are based on the world
with
which we are already familiar. All
metaphor, therefore, is homely,
at
base.
17. In photographs, the pose confronts the
camera like a camera.
18. Photographs are by nature momentary (they
are slices of time),
dramatic
(they are staged) and elegiac (they fade); in this they
resemble
poetry.
19.
Creativity is a sentimental concept.
20. The filscript is the primary literary genre.
21. Choose one: (1) The names of things have
more power than the things
themselves;
(2) The actuality of things is more expressive than
language;
(3) things like oranges have tremendous presence, but are
invisible
without their names.
22.
Writers, like actors, require personae.
23. The
"new" is always strangely familiar.
24. The
politics of language appears first in the preposition.
25. Relativism and pluralism are forms of
absolutism.
26. Irony is closer to the truth than direct
statements of fact.
27 Simple things, like armies, can be
understood by pointing.
28.
Postmodern dispersion is a form of irony, using multiplicity to
arrive
at a "new realism" But it is a form of irony that lacks irony.
29. Language poetry is a sign sung by a seme.
30. Do
writer feel pain, or are they too dishonest?
31. Fame is the truest form of transcendence.
32. Thought is sexless, but it's subject matter
is gendered.
33. Art is a form of social control.
34. Theory is fiction with only one character.
35. Erasure is it own reward.
36. To know the future of an art, examine the
most ridiculed and
marginalized
form of its current practice.
37. A good sentence is never innocent.
38. Only actors have souls.
39 Transgression is a form of postmodern
worship.
40 The past is still under construction.
41. Replication of existing themes and forms is
the only true realism.
42 The speed of reality is faster than the
speed of attention.
43. Only poetry approaches the speed of truth.
44. All narrative aspires to the chase scene.
45. Nature fills the gaps that authors leave.
46.
Dignity requires a history of suffering.
47 Avant-garde poetry is nostalgic for
tradition.
48. Modernism has yet to complete its mission.
49 Postmodernism is sentimental about the
future.
50. Because there is no belief, there is no
millenial fervor.
--------------D0FF3FBBC83375A05B30E320
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<HTML>
I found
this wonderful list of questions in <I>Chicago Review, </I>Fall
97,
Also has a wonderful interview with Robert Duncan by Robert Peters
who listmemebers
have heard of as a friend of Charles Plymell's (much missed
former
list-member) and mine, and a great article on Jack Spicer and his
circle
by former (and missed) listmember Kevin Killian and Lew Ellingham.
<P>This
is by Paul Hoover, editor of the Norton Postmodern Anthology.
<P>THE
NEW MILLENIUM:
<BR>FIFTY
STATEMENTS ON LITERATURE AND CULTURE
<BR>(AGREE
OR DISAGREE)
<P>1.
The word "consumer" has replaced the word "citizen" in most
forms
of
discourse.
<P>2.
Traditional culture is the enemy of consumerism.
<P>3.
Media culture collaborates with consumerism to confuse and intimidate
the
average literate citizen.
<P>4.
Postmodern theory was created to confuse and intimidate the average
literate
citizen.
<P>5.
Avant-gardes are a necessary aspect of late capitalism.
<P>6.
Poetry has the same connection to social class that it had under
aristocratic
social orders.
<P>7.
The erotic allure of narrative lies in the courtship of the author
and
reader, usually involving the courtly deference of the former
to the
later. The eroticism of non-narrative lies in the shared rufusal
of
normal relations.
<P>8.
The mind can only conceive of uncertainty as a certainty--in other
words
as an image. But images are of interest only when they communicate
an
uncertainty.
<P>9.
Poems are entirely factual.
<P>10.
The list, or series, is the major organizing priciple of writing.
<P>11.
The out of sequence series is the organizing principle of
most
avant-garde writing.
<P>12.
The "new" in art is always imported from another culture.
<P>13.
Annihilation is a form of flattery.
<P>14.
There is more difference between one and zero than one and
one
million.
<P>15.
Poetry is a rumor told by the truth.
<P>16.
Even at their most fantastic, our thoughts are based on the
world
with which we are already familiar. All metaphor, therefore,
is
homely, at base.
<P>17.
In photographs, the pose confronts the camera like a camera.
<P>18.
Photographs are by nature momentary (they are slices of time),
dramatic
(they are staged) and elegiac (they fade); in this they resemble
poetry.
<P>19.
Creativity is a sentimental concept.
<P>20.
The filscript is the primary literary genre.
<P>21.
Choose one: (1) The names of things have more power than the
things
themselves; (2) The actuality of things is more expressive than
language;
(3) things like oranges have tremendous presence, but are invisible
without
their names.
<P>22.
Writers, like actors, require personae.
<P>23.
The "new" is always strangely familiar.
<P>24.
The politics of language appears first in the preposition.
<P>25.
Relativism and pluralism are forms of absolutism.
<P>26.
Irony is closer to the truth than direct statements of fact.
<P>27
Simple things, like armies, can be understood by pointing.
<P>28.
Postmodern dispersion is a form of irony, using multiplicity to
arrive
at a "new realism" But it is a form of irony that lacks irony.
<P>29.
Language poetry is a sign sung by a seme.
<P>30.
Do writer feel pain, or are they too dishonest?
<P>31.
Fame is the truest form of transcendence.
<P>32.
Thought is sexless, but it's subject matter is gendered.
<P>33.
Art is a form of social control.
<P>34.
Theory is fiction with only one character.
<P>35.
Erasure is it own reward.
<P>36.
To know the future of an art, examine the most ridiculed and
marginalized
form of its current practice.
<P>37.
A good sentence is never innocent.
<P>38.
Only actors have souls.
<P>39
Transgression is a form of postmodern worship.
<P>40
The past is still under construction.
<P>41.
Replication of existing themes and forms is the only true
realism.
<P>42
The speed of reality is faster than the speed of attention.
<P>43.
Only poetry approaches the speed of truth.
<P>44.
All narrative aspires to the chase scene.
<P>45.
Nature fills the gaps that authors leave.
<P>46.
Dignity requires a history of suffering.
<P>47
Avant-garde poetry is nostalgic for tradition.
<P>48.
Modernism has yet to complete its mission.
<P>49
Postmodernism is sentimental about the future.
<P>50.
Because there is no belief, there is no millenial fervor.</HTML>
--------------D0FF3FBBC83375A05B30E320--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:47:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders inquiry
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In a
message dated 30-Jan-98 7:40:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, BMXDREA@AOL.COM
writes:
<< I'm glad
that you brought Ginsberg's consideration
up. >>
I have
some vague recollection of Ginsberg collaborating with The Fugs back in
the
very earliest Sixties. Do a web search for Tuli Kupferberg, as well as Ed
Sanders,
and be sure to check out Literary Kicks for some very enlightening
links on
Sanders.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:20:10 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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Maggie
Dharma wrote:
>
yeah, more or less. I haven't felt "invited" in to his prose like I
usually do
>
with writers.
===
Right, whereas Kerouac is like "roll up for the magical mystery
tour",
WSB is more like, "I'm gonna sit here and play with my soul. You
can
watch if you want. Or don't." Reading WSB is a very voyeuristic
experience,
more so than Kerouac's for some reason, even though
Kerouac's
work is basically his day-to-day diary.
> he
feels somewhat dated to me, out of step
>
with, certainly, heterosexuality and women as well as heroin use.
=== For
better or for worse, there are probably more people now leading
the WSB
lifestyle than there were in the 60's. Personally, I think he's
more
trenchant than ever.
>
But the discussion on Beat-L lately has been very interesting and has armed me
>
with ideas to try him again. So I will.
=== If
I may suggest: "The Adding Machine" (a very sober collection of
essays),
"My Education" (selections from his dream journals) and
"Queer"
(an
unflinchingly honest novel, especially for 1951)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
meditating
on Japanese candy
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:47:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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I always WSB to be the archetypal
criminal/outcast,someone who lives
on the
fringe of society,and who is disliked by it. Yet A charecter who
follows
a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned
him.
Maybe some will be thinking that this is too
kind.. I would love to
hear
any comments on this
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:57:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: WSB and science fiction
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If one
wants see the real literary influence of WSB they should look at
the new
wave science fiction writers. These included Norman
Spinrad,Micheal
Moorecock.John Stadelk,and especialy cult author J.G.
Ballard.
There is a huge debt that modern science
fiction owes to the beat
generation. Authors like Philip K. Dick are more similar
to WSB and
Ginsberg
than Asimov or Heinlein.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 23:58:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.32.19980130092148.00890260@pobox3.bbn.com>
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What is
this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
conceptualizing,
my ass.
On Fri,
30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
>
Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see lit=
tle
value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without conceptualizin=
g it in
a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile discussion. To simply s=
tate
that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece doesn't go very far toward =
generating
ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to the next step, whether it =
be a
personal insight or reflection on some aspect of the piece or somethin=
g more
lit crit/theoretical. How has the piece influenced, say, your concep=
tion of
a poetics. Something.
>=20
>=20
> As
for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours h=
anding
out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about. :=
]
>=20
>=20
>
Regards,
>=20
>=20
> Ed
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> At
07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>=20
>
>ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv b=
ut as
of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality o=
f beat
lit. and
>=20
>
>speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>=20
>
>i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've bee=
en
reading ginsberg for years.
>=20
>
>mc
>=20
>
>
>=20
>
>Edward Desautels wrote:
>=20
>
>
>=20
>
>> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>=20
>
>>
>=20
>
>> Ed
>=20
>
>>
>=20
>
>> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>=20
>
>> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949)
that
>=20
>
>> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >Take my love, it is not true,
>=20
>
>> >So let it tempt no body new;
>=20
>
>> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>=20
>
>> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>=20
>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>=20
>
>> >To give to some poor poet old;
>=20
>
>> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>=20
>
>> >If his age would wear my youth;
>=20
>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>=20
>
>> >Blow my body out of mind;
>=20
>
>> >Take this heart to go with that
>=20
>
>> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>=20
>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >Take the art which I bemoan
>=20
>
>> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>=20
>
>> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>=20
>
>> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>=20
>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>=20
>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the
greatest
>=20
>
>> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>=20
>
>> >counterculture.
>=20
>
>> > Maggie G.
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>> >_________________________________________________________
>=20
>
>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>=20
>
>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>=20
>
>> >
>=20
>
>>
=
=
=01=F4=D2*
>=20
>
>> =
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
>
>>
=
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
>
>>
=
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
>
>>
=
=
=01=F4=DA0
>=20
>
>> =
=
=01=F4=DAp
>=20
>
>>
>=20
>
>>
=
=
=01=F4=DA=A5
>=20
>
>>
=
=
=01=F4=DB=04
>=20
>
>>
=
=
=01=F4=DB=04
>=20
>
>> =
=
=01=F4x8
>=20
>
>
>=20
>
<center>************************************************************
>=20
>
<bigger>Edward Desautels
>=20
> 7
Hamilton Road
>=20
>
Somerville, MA 02144
>=20
>
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>=20
>
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>=20
>=20
>
"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
>=20
> I
called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>=20
>
Jacques Rigaut
>=20
>
</bigger>************************************************************</ce=
nter>
>=20
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:23:40 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp
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there's
an article about him in an old avant garde
magazine from about
1968
that might have some biographical stuff.
the
dictionary of literary biography has a two part set on the beats
that
should list him
you
might have some luck with underground rock histories
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:27:45 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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they
migh be giants quotes parts of howl some where...i should be
allowed
to hang my poster ishould be allowed to think...or sumpin.....
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 00:29:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
10:04 PM 1/30/98 EST, Maggie wrote:
>It's
only an observation, not a conclusion, but it
>seems
to me that people on this list post occasional thoughtful,
>soul-searching
questions and theories that make for
>great
discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
>discussed,
and someone posts original prose or poetry
>instead
and that gets discussed. Remember, I'm not
>really
making a judgment here.
^^^^^^^^^
>Maybe
we (meaning the general population here) are not
>qualified
or interested enough to make a thread last
>very
long or really profit from it; I don't know,
>I
really don't, I'm just saying maybe.
Hmm,
according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:
judgement:
n. 3.
Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical faculty,
discernment.
In one
of them "word game" moods I guess. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 01:23:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-type:
text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding:
7bit
I have
most everything on Sanders- and this includes all those Dictionary of
Lit
articles and the fugs stuff. What I am really looking for is scholarly
criticism
of his work. I have tons of trash on Sanders! Believe me folks, I
spent
an entire semester on Lexis/Nexis and every other database that I have
access
to and there is slim pickings on this man and his work. Not
suprisingly,
most of the info I have is conflicting.
I think
I'm going to have to go up to Woodstock and talk to old Ed myself. You
wouldn't
believe how terrible the reviews of his work are. Just trash! One
reviewer
doesn't even recognize that the name of the fictional rock group in
"Fame
and Love in New York," is the famous (recently honored an celebrated)
work of
Emile Zola. I struggle a lot with Ed's
work and I feel very close to
his
purpose, but more than anything, I pity Sanders because it seems as though
he will
go unrecognized-- and I mean in a scholarly, intelligent way.
Thanks
for the tips about the Asher website etc. I'll leaf through my data and
find
more on the ginsberg-fug connection. I must admit I'm more interested in
Sanders'
literary ventures, however. Sanders said that he considered the fugs
a
literary group, and that's especially evident in the group's romantic
influences.
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:28:58 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: some thoughts
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Maggie
Dharma wrote:
>
>
I'm probably going to sign off the list pretty soon, not because I don't like
>
it, but for other reasons that have only to do with myself and are of no
>
interest to anyone. And I wanted to say something, make an observation before
> I
go.
>
> I
also am subscribed to the Bukowski list, and if I get one piece of mail from
>
that group a week, that's a full schedule for all those geniuses and barflies.
>
It's very different from this list in that regard, and good, bad or
>
indifferent, when a post comes from the Buk list, it is about Bukowski and
>
nothing else.
>
>
It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it seems to me that people on
>
this list post occasional thoughtful, soul-searching questions and theories
>
that make for great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
>
discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry instead and that gets
>
discussed. Remember, I'm not really making a judgment here.
>
>
Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not qualified or interested
>
enough to make a thread last very long or really profit from it; I don't know,
> I
really don't, I'm just saying maybe. I know I didn't comment a bunch of
>
times because I didn't know what to say, but I was hoping really hard someone
>
else would comment, and I'd learn something. Then when I had some
>
information/knowledge, I did post it, and hope people learned from that and
>
enjoyed it.
>
>
Anyway, it's quality, not quantity, that I've enjoyed here, and I'll
>
undoubtedly sign up again eventually (I'm not gone yet, though, so don't give
>
away my seat!).
>
>
Maggie
melanie
is singing "there's a chance peace will come in your life please
buy
one" as i meet your message. i'm
totally ignorant of this Buk the
puke
dude. "there's nothing nicer than
having to sing an unnecessary
peace
song".
i will
say that the variety is the spice of life.
i'm a member of the
Hesse
and Burke listserves and i find it dreadful that the energy level
for
discussions concerning folks so charged in their interior landscapes
comes
down to dry meanderings once a month whether the moon is full or
not.
it
sounds as though there is room in the universe for different types of
listserves
and in this one i wish that there were more scholarly threads
for me
to learn from in addition to the banter and chatter which i'm
often
at the centre of (prep at end of sentence so shoot me!).
i'd
suggest you consider shifting to digest for a bit to stay connected
and yet
not in the thick. i do that from time
to time. and if you do
leave
we'll all have to sing "Goodnight Irene" with a little
orchestration
and five part harmony and the like.
Bukowski
i've heard hates being associated with the term beat (as many
of the
Beats rejected the label as labeling was anathema). If we could
stipulate
that he is nearly quasi-Beat could you slide him within the
pantheon
for me and others.
thanks
in advance.
gypsy
davey
p.s. i'm tempted to join the Bukowski list just
to see how long it
takes
for me to get kicked off!!!!! If you
see Bukowski on the
listserve
shoot him with an arrow in the forehead.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:30:35 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: blaster
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Aeronwy
Thomas wrote:
>
>
and don't forget ice-cream/coffee blasters
and
Zoroasterblasters and Zarathustra boosters.
dbr
p.s. i know "scope!" couldn't resist
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:03:22 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
In-Reply-To:
<3.0.1.32.19980127184547.006a78a4@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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LANGUAGE
IS A VIRUS vocals:Laurie Anderson
Paradise
Is
exactly like
Where
you are right now
Only
much much
Better.
I saw
this guy on the train
And he
seemed to have gotten stuck
In one
of those abstract trances.
And he
was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."
And
Fred said:
"I
think he's in some kind of pain.
I think
it's a pain cry."
And I
said: "Pain cry?
Then
language is a virus."
Language!
It's a virus!
Language!
It's a virus!
Well I
was talking to a friend
And I
was saying:
I
wanted you.
And I was
looking for you.
but I
couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.
And he
said: Hey!
Are you
talking to me?
Or are
you just practicing
For one
of those performances of yours?
Huh?
Language!
It's a virus!
Language!
It's a virus!
He
said: I had to write that letter to your mother.
And I
had to tell the judge that it was you.
And I
had to sell the car and go to Florida.
Because
that's just my way of saying It's
a charm.
That I
love you. And I It's
a job.
Had to
call you at the crack of down
Why?
And
list the times that I've been wrong.
Cause
that's just my way of saying
That
I'm sorry.
It's a job.
Language!
It's a virus!
Language!
It's a virus!
Paradise
Is
exactly like
Where
you are right now
Only
much much It's a shipwreck,
Better. It's a job.
You
know? I don't believe there's such
a thing
as TV. I mean --
They
just keep showing you
The
same pictures over and over.
And
when they talk they just make sounds
That
more or less synch up
With
their lips.
That's
what I think!
Language!
It's a virus!
Language!
It's a virus!
Language!
It's a virus!
Well I
dreamed there was an island
That
rose up from the sea
And
everybody on the island
Was
somebody from TV.
And
there was a beautiful view
But
nobody could see.
Cause
everybody on the island
Was
saying: Look at me! Look at me!
Look at me! Look at me!
Because
they all lived on an island
That
rose up from the sea
And
everybody on the island
Was
somebody from the TV.
And
there was a beutiful view
But
nobody could see.
Cause
everybody on the island
Was
saying: Look at me! Look at me!
Look at me! Why?
Paradise
is exactly like
Where
you are right now
Only
much much better.
"LANGUAGE IS A
VIRUS
FROM OUTER
SPACE."
-- William S.
Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:07:26 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
"to
live outside the law you must be honest" -bob dylan
Mark
Ricard wrote:
> I always WSB to be the archetypal
criminal/outcast,someone who lives
> on
the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it. Yet A charecter who
>
follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned
>
him.
>
> Maybe some will be thinking that this is
too kind.. I would love to
>
hear any comments on this
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:21:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
rinaldo,
do you know what album/tape/CD this is from?
mc
Rinaldo
Rasa wrote:
> LANGUAGE
IS A VIRUS vocals:Laurie
Anderson
>
>
Paradise
> Is
exactly like
>
Where you are right now
>
Only much much
>
Better.
>
> I
saw this guy on the train
>
And he seemed to have gotten stuck
> In
one of those abstract trances.
>
And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."
>
>
And Fred said:
>
"I think he's in some kind of pain.
> I
think it's a pain cry."
>
And I said: "Pain cry?
>
Then language is a virus."
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
>
Well I was talking to a friend
>
And I was saying:
> I
wanted you.
>
And I was looking for you.
>
but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.
>
And he said: Hey!
>
Are you talking to me?
> Or
are you just practicing
>
For one of those performances of yours?
>
Huh?
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
> He
said: I had to write that letter to your mother.
>
And I had to tell the judge that it was you.
>
And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.
>
Because that's just my way of saying
It's a charm.
>
That I love you. And I
It's a job.
>
Had to call you at the crack of down
>
Why?
>
And list the times that I've been wrong.
>
Cause that's just my way of saying
>
That I'm sorry.
>
It's a job.
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
>
Paradise
> Is
exactly like
>
Where you are right now
>
Only much much It's a
shipwreck,
>
Better. It's a
job.
>
>
You know? I don't believe there's such
> a
thing as TV. I mean --
>
They just keep showing you
>
The same pictures over and over.
>
And when they talk they just make sounds
>
That more or less synch up
> With
their lips.
>
That's what I think!
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
>
Well I dreamed there was an island
>
That rose up from the sea
>
And everybody on the island
>
Was somebody from TV.
>
And there was a beautiful view
>
But nobody could see.
>
Cause everybody on the island
>
Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Look at me!
>
>
Because they all lived on an island
>
That rose up from the sea
>
And everybody on the island
>
Was somebody from the TV.
>
And there was a beutiful view
>
But nobody could see.
>
Cause everybody on the island
>
Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Why?
>
>
Paradise is exactly like
>
Where you are right now
>
Only much much better.
>
> "LANGUAGE IS
A VIRUS
> FROM OUTER
SPACE."
> -- William S.
Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:39:12 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Reply
to message from edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM of Fri, 30 Jan
>
>Apologies
to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see little=
>
value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without conceptualizing it=
> in
a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile discussion. To simply state=
>
that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece doesn't go very far toward=
>
generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to the next step, whether it=
> be
a personal insight or reflection on some aspect of the piece or=
>
something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the piece influenced, say,=
>
your conception of a poetics. Something.
There
doesn't seem to be anything wrong with just sharing a Beat poem for
sharing's
sakes to me. As much as this list
thrives on academic
discussions,
I'm sure we all need an occasional break.
I thought the poem
was
gorgeous, & was esp. struck by the rhyme scheme, so different
from
his later poems! How people change...
Diane.
>
>
>As
for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours=
>
handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about.=
> :]
>
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Ed
>
>
>
>
>At
07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>ed:
that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv but=
> as
of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality of=
>
beat lit. and
>
>>speak
for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>
>>i
myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've beeen=
>
reading ginsberg for years.
>
>>mc
>
>>
>
>>Edward
Desautels wrote:
>
>>
>
>>>
Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>
>>>
>
>>>
Ed
>
>>>
>
>>>
At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>>
> Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949) that
>
>>>
>I thought was well worth sharing.
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>Take my love, it is not true,
>
>>>
>So let it tempt no body new;
>
>>>
>Take my lady, she will sigh
>
>>>
>For my bed where'er I lie;
>
>>>
>Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>>
> But leave my bones alone.
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>
>>>
>To give to some poor poet old;
>
>>>
>Take the skin that hoods this truth
>
>>>
>If his age would wear my youth;
>
>>>
>Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>>
> But leave my bones alone.
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>Take the thoughts that like the wind
>
>>>
>Blow my body out of mind;
>
>>>
>Take this heart to go with that
>
>>>
>And pass it on from rat to rat;
>
>>>
>Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>>
> But leave my bones alone.
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>Take the art which I bemoan
>
>>>
>In a poem's crazy tone;
>
>>>
>Grind me down, though I may groan,
>
>>>
>To the starkest stick and stone;
>
>>>
>Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>>
> But leave my bones alone.
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
> Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the greatest
>
>>>
>minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>
>>>
>counterculture.
>
>>>
> Maggie G.
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
>_________________________________________________________
>
>>>
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>
>>>
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>>>
>
>
>>>
=
> =
> =01=F4=D2*
>
>>>
=
>
=
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>> =
>
=
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>>
=
>
=
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>>
=
> =
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>>
=
>
=
> =01=F4=DAp
>
>>>
>
>>> =
>
=
> =01=F4=DA=A5
>
>>>
=
> =
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
>>>
=
>
=
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
>>>
=
>
=
> =01=F4x8
>
>>
>
><center>************************************************************
>
><bigger>Edward
Desautels
>
>7
Hamilton Road
>
>Somerville,
MA 02144
>
>edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>
>http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>
>
>"One
day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
>
>I
called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>
>Jacques
Rigaut
>
></bigger>************************************************************</cente=
>r>
>
>
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:39:09 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
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In a
message dated 30-Jan-98 9:31:40 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cake@IONLINE.NET
writes:
<<
Remember, I'm not
>really making a judgment here.
Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford
Dictionary_:
judgement: n. 3. Criticism; opinion,
estimate; critical faculty,
discernment.
In one of them "word game" moods I
guess. . .
Mike >>
.........................................................................
I wrote
"judgment," not "judgement," Mike.
In one
of them "word spelling right" moods, I guess (imagine a good-natured
grin
here)...
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:45:30 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza"
<ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
Reply
to message from jholland@ICLUB.ORG of Fri, 30 Jan
>
>Bob
Lewis wrote:
>
>>
oh sorry-
>>
they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
>
>
>===
Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I
>Palindrome
I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love" coming
>from
Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and "Your
>Racist
Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To Berlin",
>"Birdhouse
in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.
what
about their song that alludes to Howl? I
don't remeber what it's
called,
but it starts off with the line about teh best minds of their
generation...it's
lsited on Levi's Literary Kicks page somewehre.
Diane.
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
>digging
on Blind Willie McTell
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>
--
"This
is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack
Kerouac
Diane
Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:44:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
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In a
message dated 30-Jan-98 10:30:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
BMXDREA@AOL.COM
writes:
<<
What I am really looking for is scholarly
criticism of his work. >>
oh,
sorry, Andrea... I lost the focus of your thread.
I guess
I probably shouldn't start one about the artificiality of the
scholarly
community to recognize an artist until a scholarly work or criticism
is
completed on him/her.
still,
some great art languishes in obscurity until some ph. D. candidate does
a
dissertation and publishes it...
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:08:46 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Mark
Ricard wrote:
>
> I always WSB to be the archetypal
criminal/outcast,someone who lives
> on
the fringe of society,and who is disliked by it.
===
Well, obviously. He was a heroin addict, a pedophile, and a writer
of
harsh reality. This definitely qualifies him as an outcast on the
fringe
of society. Being openly gay in the repressive 1950's didn't hurt
either.
Neither did shooting Joan.
>
Yet A charecter who
>
follows a code of rules better than that of the society that shunned
>
him.
=== WSB
didn't always live up to his own notion of the "Johnsons", but
he did
better than any of us probably ever will.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
drinking
Amaretto for Breakfast
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:52:36 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
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In a
message dated 31-Jan-98 1:32:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, race@MIDUSA.NET
writes:
<<
i'd suggest you consider shifting to digest
for a bit to stay connected
and yet not in the thick. i do that from time to time. and if you do
leave we'll all have to sing "Goodnight
Irene" with a little
>>
not a
bad idea, david. and how did you know my real name is Irene? Oh, i
probably
told you. That's my problem. I talk too much. I tell too much.
It's
not Beat-L; it's me (that's what I always say when I break up with
someone)...
Take
nothing seriously. It's just life.
MD
ps:
I've never identified Bukowski as Beat. to me, he always seemed to
specialize
in being a big old embittered drunk, maybe grandaddy of "The Beer
Generation"
or "Hooch-oo-mian." But not Beat, not to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:10:14 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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I have
two comments about this: 1. Does sex with teenage boys make you a
pedophile?
Not in my book it doesn't.,2. What was WSB's personal
reaction
to Joan's death? How much guilt diid he feel?Did he love her?
How
diid this affect his life?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:17:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels
<edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: blaster
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Crap
Blaster
At
09:13 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Blaster
>
>Map
blaster
>Sound
blaster
>Master
blaster
>Bass
blaster
>Cap
blaster
>Disaster
blaster
>No
blaster
>Portland
Blaster
>Mortar
blaster
>Clinton
blaster
>Blaster
blaster
>Blaster
blaster blaster
>Jazz
blaster
>Rocket
blaster
>Blast
blaster
>Blust
blaster.
>Blaster
>Blast.
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:29:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
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Bukoski
is funnier than any of the other beat writers,if you consider
him
one. He is in the beat reader by
viking,so someone considers him
one. I
loved the Postoffice. Yes, he is quite a bitter angry man.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:46:33 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: bukowski
MIME-Version:
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David
Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat
=== So
did Kerouac himself. But we call him Beat anyway.
I call
Bukowski a beat writer when I'm in the presence of friends and
comrades
who know what I'm talking about. In mixed company, however, I
keep my
lip zipped lest I elicit convoluted arguments from others on
just
exactly what the one true verifiable definition of "Beat" is, blah
blah
blah, which means nothing to me. I'll call Edna St.Vincent Millay a
Beat if
it behooves me. And I love to be behooved.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
going
mountain climbing today
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:34:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Edward Desautels
<edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Mime-Version:
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Opinions
are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
Ed
At
11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>What
is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
>conceptualizing,
my ass.
>
>On
Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
>
>>
Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I see
little
value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without
conceptualizing
it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile
discussion.
To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece
doesn't
go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Take to
the
next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some
aspect
of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the
piece
influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.
>>=20
>>=20
>>
As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four hours
handing
out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read about.=
:]
>>=20
>>=20
>>
Regards,
>>=20
>>=20
>>
Ed
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>
At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>>=20
>>
>ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list serv
but as
of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of totality
of beat
lit. and
>>=20
>>
>speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you speak?
>>=20
>>
>i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and i've
beeen
reading ginsberg for years.
>>=20
>>
>mc
>>=20
>>
>
>>=20
>>
>Edward Desautels wrote:
>>=20
>>
>
>>=20
>>
>> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>>=20
>>
>>
>>=20
>>
>> Ed
>>=20
>>
>>
>>=20
>>
>> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>=20
>>
>> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early 1949)
that
>>=20
>>
>> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >Take my love, it is not true,
>>=20
>>
>> >So let it tempt no body new;
>>=20
>>
>> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>>=20
>>
>> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>>=20
>>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>>=20
>>
>> >To give to some poor poet old;
>>=20
>>
>> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>>=20
>>
>> >If his age would wear my youth;
>>=20
>>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>>=20
>>
>> >Blow my body out of mind;
>>=20
>>
>> >Take this heart to go with that
>>=20
>>
>> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>>=20
>>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >Take the art which I bemoan
>>=20
>>
>> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>>=20
>>
>> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>>=20
>>
>> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>>=20
>>
>> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>>=20
>>
>> > But leave my bones alone.
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of the
greatest
>>=20
>>
>> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in our
>>=20
>>
>> >counterculture.
>>=20
>>
>> > Maggie G.
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>> >_________________________________________________________
>>=20
>>
>> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>>=20
>>
>> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>>=20
>>
>> >
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=D2*
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DA0
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DAp
>>=20
>>
>>
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DA=A5
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DB=04
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4=DB=04
>>=20
>>
>>
=01=F4x8
>>=20
>>
>
>>=20
>>
<center>************************************************************
>>=20
>>
<bigger>Edward Desautels
>>=20
>>
7 Hamilton Road
>>=20
>>
Somerville, MA 02144
>>=20
>>
edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>>=20
>>
http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>>=20
>>=20
>>
"One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,=20
>>=20
>>
I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>>=20
>>
Jacques Rigaut
>>=20
>>
</bigger>************************************************************</cente=
r>
>>=20
>
>The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:51:57 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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well,
andria, it looks like you're the one destined to write that long
erudite
piece you've been looking for, huh?
tkc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:58:26 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: some thoughts
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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M.
Cakebread wrote:
>
> At
10:04 PM 1/30/98 EST, Maggie wrote:
>
>
>It's only an observation, not a conclusion, but it
>
>seems to me that people on this list post occasional thoughtful,
>
>soul-searching questions and theories that make for
>
>great discussions. For whatever reason, they don't get
>
>discussed, and someone posts original prose or poetry
>
>instead and that gets discussed. Remember, I'm not
>
>really making a judgment here.
> ^^^^^^^^^
>
>Maybe we (meaning the general population here) are not
>
>qualified or interested enough to make a thread last
>
>very long or really profit from it; I don't know,
>
>I really don't, I'm just saying maybe.
>
>
Hmm, according to the _Concise Oxford Dictionary_:
>
>
judgement: n. 3. Criticism; opinion, estimate; critical
faculty,
>
discernment.
>
> In
one of them "word game" moods I guess. . .
>
>
Mike
it
seems the critical question is whether judgement is to precede or
follow
"Understanding".
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:01:44 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
7bit
Jeffrey
Scott Holland wrote:
>
>
Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
>
>
> thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so
>
> scary to me anymore...
>
>
and Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
>
> You all have given me a desire
>
> to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
>
>
=== Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:
>
what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'? I'm just curious.
> Is
it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't
>
recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted
Morgan,
>
the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of
>
WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.
>
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
>
listening to Lester Young, 1944 stuff
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
I've
read most of Lit Outlaw. When you say
the best bio out there, what
is the
competition. Anybody?
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:09:10 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: bukowski
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>David
Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>>
Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat
>
>
>===
So did Kerouac himself.
Untrue. Inaccurate.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:04:04 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie
Anderson)
In-Reply-To: <199801311424.JAA22975@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
marie
writes:
>rinaldo,
do you know what album/tape/CD this is from?
>mc
>
ciao
marie,
it's
from the CD: Home Of The Brave
Jimmy
Bralower: drums
Nile
Rodgers: guitars
Laurie
Anderson: Vocals, Synclavier
Robert
Arron: sax
Crowd:
Nile Rodgers, Laurie Anderson, Tom Durack, Knut Bohn,
Back-up
Vocals: Curtis King, Frank Simms, Diane Garisto,
Tawatha
agee, Brenda White-King
buon
sabato a te e a tutti gli amici,
rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:16:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At
11:34 AM 1/31/98 -0500, Ed wrote:
>Opinions
are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
"The
vanity of others offends our taste only when it
offends
our vanity." - Friedrich Neitzsche
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:16:27 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender:
"BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory
<letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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-----Original
Message-----
From:
Edward Desautels <edesaute@BBNPLANET.COM>
To:
BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date:
Saturday, January 31, 1998 8:40 AM
Subject:
Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
>Opinions
are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>
>Ed
Is that
your opinion, Ed?
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:14:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew Zivot
<mzivot@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU>
Organization:
The George Washington University
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
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Diane
M. Homza wrote:
>
Reply to message from jholland@ICLUB.ORG of Fri, 30 Jan
>
>
>
>Bob Lewis wrote:
>
>
>
>> oh sorry-
>
>> they might be giants and the beat list just don't mix.
>
>
>
>
>
>=== Actually, a lot of their lyrics are good poetry. I could see "I
>
>Palindrome I" coming from WSB, "Sapphire Bullets of Pure
Love" coming
>
>from Kerouac, "Lie Still, Little Bottle" from Ferlinghetti, and
"Your
>
>Racist Friend" from Ginsberg. And don't forget "Road Movie To
Berlin",
>
>"Birdhouse in Your Soul", etc., etc., the list goes on.
>
>
what about their song that alludes to Howl?
I don't remeber what it's
>
called, but it starts off with the line about teh best minds of their
>
generation...it's lsited on Levi's Literary Kicks page somewehre.
>
>
Diane.
>
>
>
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>Jeffrey Scott Holland - - Berea, KY
>
>digging on Blind Willie McTell
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
"This is Beat. Live your lives
out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
> --Jack
Kerouac
>
Diane Marie Homza
>
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
I believe its "I should be allowed to
think" off the John Henry album.
Much
off beat philosophy was about going where the mind took you, but I'm
still
not sure if tmbg should be discussed here.
--
Matthew
Zivot
************************************************************
"I
think all heroic deeds were conceiv'd in the open air, and all free
poems
also,
I think
I can stop here myself and do miracles." - Walt Whitman
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:23:26 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
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Andrea
Moore wrote:
(...)
>I
must admit I'm more interested in
>Sanders'
literary ventures, however. Sanders said that he considered the fugs
>a
literary group, and that's especially evident in the group's romantic
>influences.
>
>Drea
>
ED
SANDERS / For Marilyn Monroe, August 5, 1962
Marilin
is dead sultry fire sucked back to the brazier
heart
gone endless blotted in the
universe
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:30:33 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: some thoughts
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At
10:39 AM 1/31/98 EST, Maggie wrote:
>I
wrote "judgment," not "judgement," Mike.
>
>In
one of them "word spelling right" moods, I guess (imagine a
>good-natured
grin here)...
Ahh,
from the Old Testament abbreviation of "Judges"
spelling. Etymologically speaking/spelling.
Mike
{;^>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:35:44 EST
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn
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In a
message dated 31-Jan-98 9:10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU
writes:
<< Untrue.
Inaccurate. >>
On
which count, Tim? Bukowski or Kerouac? I agree that Kerouac didn't hate
being
associated with or thought of as a Beat, but bristled against the
pejorative
"Beatnik" label. I'm not a big Bukowski scholar; mostly I just read
his
poetry, which moves me, but I've never thought of him as a Beat, largely
because
I don't see him allying himself with any group, except the Nation of
Drunkards.
I could be wrong.
This
brings me to another poet of the 50s who rejected labeling, but is
obviously
seminal to Beats and hippies: Thom Gunn. People labeled him Beat as
well as
ascribing to him some high order in gay literature. Out of respect for
him, I
don't label him at all, but here's a poem he wrote in 1957, a Hell's
Angels
sketch...
ON THE
MOVE
'Man,
you gotta Go.'
The
blue jay scuffling in the bushes follows
Some
hidden purpose, and the gust of birds
That
spurts across the field, the wheeling swallows,
Have
nested in the trees and undergrowth.
Seeking
their instinct, or their poise, or both,
One
moves with an uncertain violence
Under
the dust thrown by a baffled sense
Or the
dull thunder of approximate words.
On
motorcycles, up the road, they come;
Small,
black, as flies hang in heat, the Boys,
Until
the distance throws them forth, their hum
Bulges
to thunder held by calf and thigh.
In
goggles, donned impersonality,
In
gleaming jackets trophied with the dust,
They
strap in doubt--by hiding it, robust--
And
almost hear a meaning in their noise.
Exact
conclusion of their hardiness
Has no
shape yet, but from known whereabouts
They
ride, direction where the tires press.
They
scare a flight of birds across the field:
Much
that is natural, to the will must yield.
Men
manufacture both machine and soul,
And use
what they imperfectly control
To dare
a future from the taken routes
It is a
part solution, after all.
One is
not necessarily discord
On
earth; or damned because, half animal,
One
lacks direct instinct, because one wakes
Afloat
on movement, then divides and breaks.
One
joins the movement in a valueless world,
Choosing
it, till, both hurler and the hurled,
One
moves as well, always toward, toward.
A
minute holds them, who have come to go:
The
self-defined, astride the created will
They
burst away; the towns they travel through
Are home
for neither bird nor holiness,
For
birds and saints complete their purposes.
At
worst, one is in motion; and at best,
Reaching
no absolute, in which to rest,
One is
always nearer by not keeping still.
....................................
It just
occurred to me I do Gunn a disservice by calling him a "poet of the
50s."
He's still very much vital, alive and publishing in the 90s. I relate
this to
Beat because of Kerouac's love for Brando and "The Wild One," and
that
sense
of needing to hit the road, to go, and go, and go (John Clellon Holmes).
And
somehow I feel he's cut from the same cloth as Whitman, and, in an odd
way,
even Thoreau.
All
Beat, All the Time....
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:39:35 EST
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: tmbg (was: re:blaster)
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In a
message dated 31-Jan-98 9:27:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mzivot@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU
writes:
<<
Matthew Zivot
************************************************************
"I think all heroic deeds were conceiv'd
in the open air, and all free
poems also, I think I can stop here myself
and do miracles." - Walt Whitman
>>
Nice,
unintended dovetail, as our posts crossed in cyberspace... this fits
that
Gunn thing I sent.
Great
signature, Matthew.
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:58:44 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn
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>In
a message dated 31-Jan-98 9:10:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU
writes:
>
><< Untrue.
Inaccurate. >>
>
>On
which count, Tim? Bukowski or Kerouac? I agree that Kerouac didn't hate
>being
associated with or thought of as a Beat, but bristled against the
>pejorative
"Beatnik" label.
The
Kerouac part. Yes, what you wrote above
is what I meant.
On the
Road was called The Beat Generation for a long time. The movie Pull
My
Daisy was one act of a play he wrote called the Beat Generation. After
On the
Road became popular he made the recording Poetry for the Beat
Generation. He participated in a seminar on whether or
not there was a
beat
generation with his position being of course there is.
It was
a good schtick within the literay book world that helped Kerouac and
Ginsberg
in their quests to be published and have notereity.
Kerouac
later expressed his dismay at how his creation became twisted to
mean
different things. This is when he began
saying beat came from
beatific.
He
disliked beatnik (as you said) and "beat insurrection" and those sort
of
themes
that the soon to be hippies actually began to use and embrace (it is
always
sad and ironic how the media distortion is embraced by those who
want to
join the "movement"). Ed
Saunders would be a perfect example of
the
sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:10:35 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie
Anderson)
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<3.0.1.32.19980131110322.006e2030@pop.gpnet.it>
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Wow! I
really liked this. It seemed to have a rythym that flowed nice and
easy.
Is this a song or what?
On Sat,
31 Jan 1998, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS
vocals:Laurie Anderson
>
>
Paradise
> Is
exactly like
>
Where you are right now
>
Only much much
>
Better.
>
> I
saw this guy on the train
>
And he seemed to have gotten stuck
> In
one of those abstract trances.
>
And he was going: "Ugh...Ugh...Ugh..."
>
>
And Fred said:
>
"I think he's in some kind of pain.
> I
think it's a pain cry."
>
And I said: "Pain cry?
>
Then language is a virus."
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
>
Well I was talking to a friend
>
And I was saying:
> I
wanted you.
>
And I was looking for you.
>
but I couldn't find you. I couldn't find you.
>
And he said: Hey!
>
Are you talking to me?
> Or
are you just practicing
>
For one of those performances of yours?
>
Huh?
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
> He
said: I had to write that letter to your mother.
>
And I had to tell the judge that it was you.
>
And I had to sell the car and go to Florida.
>
Because that's just my way of saying
It's a charm.
>
That I love you. And I
It's a job.
>
Had to call you at the crack of down
>
Why?
>
And list the times that I've been wrong.
>
Cause that's just my way of saying
>
That I'm sorry.
>
It's a job.
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
>
Paradise
> Is
exactly like
>
Where you are right now
>
Only much much It's a
shipwreck,
>
Better. It's a
job.
>
>
You know? I don't believe there's such
> a
thing as TV. I mean --
>
They just keep showing you
>
The same pictures over and over.
>
And when they talk they just make sounds
>
That more or less synch up
>
With their lips.
>
That's what I think!
>
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
Language! It's a virus!
>
>
Well I dreamed there was an island
>
That rose up from the sea
>
And everybody on the island
>
Was somebody from TV.
>
And there was a beautiful view
>
But nobody could see.
>
Cause everybody on the island
>
Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Look at me!
>
>
Because they all lived on an island
>
That rose up from the sea
>
And everybody on the island
>
Was somebody from the TV.
>
And there was a beutiful view
>
But nobody could see.
>
Cause everybody on the island
>
Was saying: Look at me! Look at me!
> Look at me! Why?
>
>
Paradise is exactly like
>
Where you are right now
>
Only much much better.
>
> "LANGUAGE IS
A VIRUS
> FROM OUTER
SPACE."
> -- William S.
Burroughs
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:44:32 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Kerouac's disenchantment with 'Beat'
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>
>David Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
>
>
>> Bukowski i've heard hates being associated with the term beat
>
>
>
>
>
>=== So did Kerouac himself.
>
>
Untrue. Inaccurate.
=== By
the very end of Kerouac's life, I assure you he wanted no part of
the
"Beat" term and publicly bemoaned his partial responsibilty for the
'counter-culture'
it spawned. He was drifting away from buddhism and
relapsing
back into catholicism, and made public statements supporting
the
Vietnam war and right-wingers like William Buckley. It's sad, but
true.
Jack was a walking nervous breakdown at this time, however, and
its not
fair to judge him by the things he said or did towards the end.
All of
this is pretty well known and it's out there if anyone wants to
look it
up.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - Berea KY
back
from creepin' in the woods
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:31:50 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Exciting News
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I
nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's
Journals:Mid-Fifties
for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told
me that
it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It
perfectly
complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so
verklempt!
I was
so excited I call my mother long distance from a payphone to tell
her. :)
~Nancy
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:50:14 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
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Edward
Desautels wrote:
>
>
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>
===
Some, however, stink more than others.
=-=-=-=-=
JSH
kentucky
=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:37:22 EST
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From: Aeronwy Thomas
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Subject: Re: Exciting News
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wow,
nancy, congrats. i can imagine how thrilled i would be to get something
like
that. =)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:41:24 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
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At
11:34 AM 1/31/98 -0500, Ed wrote:
>
>Opinions
are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
This
next piece was taken from:
_Trip
Trap_ by Jack Kerouac, Albert Saijo, and Lew Welch.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Roosevelt
had a dirty asshole
so we had
Pearl Harbor
Hitler
had a dirty ass
so we
had Buchenwald
Senator
McCarthy
had a dirty asshole
& he died
Not one
cowboy
in Texas
has a clean asshole
But there is one
in Las Vegas
Alexander
Pope
had a
dirty asshole
T S
Eliot prays for
the dirty asshole
T S
Eliot's fog
had a
dirty asshole
The
last time I saw Paris
I had a dirty asshole
Pres
Eisenhower
plays golf
with a dirty asshole
Not
insult intended to
his partner
All we mean is,
wash
your asshole
after
you shit,
with
water, clean,
and you'll feel good
& clean
Bishop
Sheean's
wild look
comes
from a dirty
asshole
Everybody
in America
is
walking around
with a
dirty asshole
A
little bit of water
goes a long way
All of
Stendhal
can be understood
All of
Stendhal
results
>From
a dirty asshole.
Santa
Claus
has a dirty asshole
Philip
Lamantia
could be taught
to cleanse his asshole
I have
no hope
for the Senators
or the Senatrix
Nor was
Cleopatra clean
Nor Vercingetorix
No
Roman pickaninny
outhoused wide.
Thou
cleaneth
where
food entereth
Why not
attend the port
of the leavings
All
holes in the body
Shd be
clean with water
All holes baptized
Holily
Holy like li li lock
All holes should be baptized
because all hole are holy
I am tired
of this talk of holes
For holes is where
my skin
is not
'Shit,
Snyder,
you know what
they do in
those monestaries
--you'll come back
with your asshole
stretched
the size
of a wagon
tire'
said Rexroth
Thats a
beautiful poem
--I
mean fire
I am
not bounded
by this
bag of skin
nor
bones skew me
'I love Jesus'
says the sign
Are we still on holes?
Let our
assholes be clean
as the hole in the donut.
As the
doors to our temple
Which
sports
One turning shoe
The
asshole of Dixie
is dirty
Dixie has a dirty asshole
Dulles died
with a dirty asshole
& went to Heaven
though
(innocent)
And I
say
a great vision
of Little Orphan Annie
eyes sightless as an asshole
MacArthur returned
to Manila
with a dirty asshole
Hirohito
rides his
white
horse
with a dirty asshole
Hirohito's
white horse
has a dirty asshole
Napolean on Elba
not clean
The
final asshole line
is
Wash Thyself
We
shoulda got
Shirley Temple
in there
Oh that
man
that arrests us
Will
have
a dirty asshole
That's
an endless thing
Let's talk
about shacks in Texas
And the birds
on seaweed
wheat
plains"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:42:58 EST
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From: Aeronwy Thomas
<Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's disenchantment with 'Beat'
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my
impression, from reading ann charters' profiles and others, that jack
enjoyed
being right in the thick of the beat movement. what he was upset
abouyt
seemed to be the way people judged his work. i think jack knew that the
beat
movement would eventually pass, but he wanted his work to be regarded as
something
more than just a fad. i'm not a scholar, just a layperson, so
correct
me if i'm wrong, anyone! but i always thought that he wanted his work
to be
judged by separate standards, and maybe to some extent himself. that may
be
true. i read somewhere that jack was frustrated with the way the press
jumped
on him to be the leader of the beat movement; that he hadn't even
invented
it himself, but rather had heard it from someone on the streets on
nyc.
aeronwy
ps -
whoa, my first significant post. whoo-ee =)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:09:09 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: LANGUAGE IS A VIRUS (Laurie Anderson)
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Nancy B
Brodsky wrote:
>
>
Wow! I really liked this. It seemed to have a rythym that flowed nice and
>
easy. Is this a song or what?
===
It's a song from Laurie Anderson's "Home of The Brave" album, one of
three
albums of hers that feature WSB.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
J.S.Holland....KY
pondering
ineffables
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:06:44 -0700
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Tom Wolfe
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so why
was it that you can't go home again? a
jayhawk mentor used to
quote
him and all these other folks to me.
some sunk in i guess.
listening
to Bruce Springsteen sing Beat Woody guthrie's song "I Ain't
Got No
Home In this World Anymore".
Do the
Discipline DE sideways,
dbr
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Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:25:42 +0100
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List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: bukowski and Thom Gunn
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Timothy
K. Gallaher wrote:
> On
the Road was called The Beat Generation for a long time. The movie Pull
> My
Daisy was one act of a play he wrote called the Beat Generation. After
> On
the Road became popular he made the recording Poetry for the Beat
>
Generation. He participated in a
seminar on whether or not there was a
>
beat generation with his position being of course there is.
=== No
one is disputing that Kerouac was a pioneer of the term, or that
he
supported the term at one time. At the end of his life, however, he
did an
ideological u-turn.
>
Kerouac later expressed his dismay at how his creation became twisted to
>
mean different things.
===
Well, yes and no. He was dismayed, but he never considered Beat "his
creation".
WSB is at the heart of Beat and yet has very little in common
with
Kerouac.
> Ed
Saunders would be a perfect example of
>
the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like.
===
Assuming you mean Ed Sanders, how so? Wherein lies his 'usurption'??
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - the hills of KY
cursing
a defective pencil sharpener
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:11:55 EST
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
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In a
message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
race@MIDUSA.NET
writes:
<<
so why was it that you can't go home again?
a jayhawk mentor used to
quote him and all these other folks to
me. some sunk in i guess.
>>
It's an
important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom (Electric
Kool-Aid
Acid Machine) Wolfe.
Look
Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains
everything
about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for
itself.
MD
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:20:33 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
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In a
message dated 1/31/98 8:11:12 AM Pacific Standard Time, bonmark@WEBTV.NET
writes:
> 1.
Does sex with teenage boys make you a
> pedophile? Not in my book it doesn't
Is your
book a dictionary? If not, get one you
idiot.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:20:22 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
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Maggie
Dharma wrote:
>
> In
a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>
race@MIDUSA.NET writes:
>
>
<< so why was it that you can't go home again? a jayhawk mentor used to
> quote him and all these other folks to
me. some sunk in i guess.
> >>
>
>
It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom (Electric
>
Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.
>
>
Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains
>
everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak
for
>
itself.
>
> MD
so you
can only go home again if you bring the electric kool-aid with
ya?????
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:45:37 -0600
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.95.980131132914.11814A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
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On Sat,
31 Jan 1998, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> I
nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's
>
Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told
> me
that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It
>
perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so
> verklempt!
Don't
want to put a damper on your excitement, but I picked up the
same
book, first-edition hardback, brand-new, in the summer of '96 for
$7. It
was so cheap because this edition has been remaindered. Which
means
it's unlikely ever to have much resale value on the used book
market.
(Of course, that's still a good deal, considering that the
original
cover price was $27.50)
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:11:20 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
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mr
desautels,
it is
coming to my awareness that you may
have come to the wrong list. i=
believe
the
monty python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one line=
rs: i
would
recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, the =
verbal
abuse
department.
sincerely,
mc
Edward
Desautels wrote:
>
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>
> Ed
>
> At
11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
>
>conceptualizing, my ass.
>
>
>
>On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
>
>
>
>> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I se=
e
>
little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without
>
conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile
>
discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piece
>
doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. Tak=
e to
>
the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some
>
aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has the
>
piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four ho=
urs
>
handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read abo=
ut. :]
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Regards,
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Ed
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>
>
>> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this list
s=
erv
>
but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of total=
ity
> of
beat lit. and
>
>>
>
>> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you
speak?
>
>>
>
>> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time, and
i'v=
e
>
beeen reading ginsberg for years.
>
>>
>
>> >mc
>
>>
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> >Edward Desautels wrote:
>
>>
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
>>
>
>> >> Ed
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
>>
>
>> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>
>
>> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career (early
1949) t=
hat
>
>>
>
>> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take my love, it is not true,
>
>>
>
>> >> >So let it tempt no body new;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>
>>
>
>> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>
>
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>
>>
>
>> >> >To give to some poor poet old;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>
>>
>
>> >> >If his age would wear my youth;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>
>
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>
>>
>
>> >> >Blow my body out of mind;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take this heart to go with that
>
>>
>
>> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>
>
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take the art which I bemoan
>
>>
>
>> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>
>>
>
>> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>
>>
>
>> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
>>
>
>> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had one of
the gre=
atest
>
>>
>
>> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely missed in
our
>
>>
>
>> >> >counterculture.
>
>>
>
>> >> > Maggie G.
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >"In dreams begin responsibilities."--Delmore
Schwartz
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >> >_________________________________________________________
>
>>
>
>> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>
>>
>
>> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>>
>
>> >> >
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=D2*
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DAp
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DA=A5
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
>>
>
>> >>
>
> =01=F4x8
> >>
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>>
<center>************************************************************
>
>>
>
>> <bigger>Edward Desautels
>
>>
>
>> 7 Hamilton Road
>
>>
>
>> Somerville, MA 02144
>
>>
>
>> edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>
>>
>
>> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
>
>>
>
>> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of shirts."
>
>>
>
>> Jacques Rigaut
>
>>
>
>>
>
</bigger>************************************************************</=
center>
>
>>
>
>
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven =
For
>
>Sure-JK
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:22:46 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
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kudos
to mr mike cakebread!
thanks
for the trip trap trip.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:26:10 +0000
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Marie Countryman
<country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
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no,
dave, you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool aid to me.
mc
David
Bruce Rhaesa wrote:
>
Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
>
>
> In a message dated 31-Jan-98 11:08:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>
> race@MIDUSA.NET writes:
>
>
>
> << so why was it that you can't go home again? a jayhawk mentor used to
>
> quote him and all these other
folks to me. some sunk in i guess.
>
> >>
>
>
>
> It's an important distinction, Thomas (Look Homeward, Angel) and Tom
(Electric
>
> Kool-Aid Acid Machine) Wolfe.
>
>
>
> Look Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City,"
explains
>
> everything about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book
speak for
>
> itself.
>
>
>
> MD
> so
you can only go home again if you bring the electric kool-aid with
>
ya?????
>
>
dbr
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:38:48 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Blaster II
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Blaster
Map
blaster
Sound
blaster
Master
blaster
Bass
blaster
Poetry
blaster
Math
Blaster
Sand
blaster
Cap
blaster
Disaster
blaster
No
blaster
Coffee
blaster
Portland
Blaster
Mortar
blaster
Clinton
blaster
Ice
cream blaster
Blaster
blaster
Zoroaster
blaster
Blaster
blaster blaster
Zarathustra
blaster
Jazz
blaster
Rocket
blaster
Crap
blaster
Rock
blaster
Blast
blaster
Blues
blaster
Cappuccino
blaster
Blasto
blaster
Blust
blaster
Poster
blaster
Blaster
Blast.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:39:10 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry
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Gallaher
wrote:
"Ed
Saunders would be a perfect example of
the
sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."
-----------------------
can you
elaborate on that? Sanders and Kerouac had a few things in common and
although
that makes only a lil difference, where does Kerouac or his work say
or hint
that Sanders "usurps" the beat label?
I'm
guessing that you're talking about the book Sanders wrote, titled,"Tales
of
Beatnik Glory, " and if this is correct, can you explain a bit? This is
the
type of
thing I'm thinking about right now. What kind of reactions do the core
Beats
have to Sanders work? (On the back of this book I just mentioned,
Ginsberg
praises the work, by the way.)
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:26:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
In-Reply-To: <34CF774A.1375@iclub.org>
MIME-version:
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On Wed,
28 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> > When WSB attempts to cut the control lines by getting beyond words,
he
>
> > must, qua writer, still use words.
>
>
=== Which is why I am extremely disappointed that WSB never took the
>
next step into totally opaque communication, a la Joyce's "Finnegan's
>
Wake".
If it
became TOTALLY opaque, would it still be "communication" at all?
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:50:43 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Thomas Wolfe
In-Reply-To: <78676fc9.34d3777d@aol.com>
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maggie
says:
>...
>Look
Homeward Angel, the model for "The Town and the City," explains
>everything
about "you can't go home again." I'll let the book speak for
>itself.
>
>MD
>
it's
possible...(i read in the middle 70s' some capthers of
_Look
Homeward Angel_ later i lost the book) and following in
early
80s' the vanity of DuluozmatchingIt...but what im' now
thinking
is the title of the Wolfe's novel was mimetic with
the
Walter Benjamin "Angelus Novus"?
something
with a progressive touch but with the head looking back
to the
past...an image of something...
well
it's interesting what does go
on,
and what doesn't go on
that should,
and the world's quite a sight
spun through spiders and webs
that catch us half asleep
and do us in
before we're even old enough
to know we're through--
charles bukowski
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:17:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
In-Reply-To: <34D063C9.60FB@iclub.org>
MIME-version:
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On Thu,
29 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
=== I didn't mean that it was opaque to the people actively taking part
> in
the communication, of course; then it wouldn't be much of a
>
communication.
>
> No, I meant FW is opaque to those who
don't speak the secret code,
>
which would be most everyday citizens. FW is a rorschach test for the
>
intelligentsia, a sort of encoded trivia quiz. To the average reader who
>
does not understand the method of the writing, nor the literary,
>
geographical, historical and biblical references and allusions, and who
>
does not know how to break words down to their Latin roots, FW is a work
>
written in secret code that they can never crack without the codex of
>
education.
>
[...]
> This is, to me, the logical next step
that WSB should have taken after
>
his cutups, because they are in the same spirit of code, tongues, Cant
>
language, cyphers. "Naked Lunch" made no sense to me as a child
either.
> To
WSB, however, and those in his circle of influence it made sense -
>
more and more sense, in fact, the deeper inside that circle you were,
>
and understood the references to his own life. The irony of all this is
>
that even as WSB claimed to want to break down language, smashing all
>
barriers and "systems of control", he was actually using the broken
>
pieces to build his *own* barrier, his own barricade against the world.
I have
my doubts about this "code" theory as applied to WSB. Granted,
if
language cannot be "totally opaque" (else it wouldn't be capable of
communicating
at all), nor totally transparent (else why would it be
needed
at all, if the things themselves could be seen so clearly on
their
own?)--is a "code" really the only other alternative?
It
seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you
have
outlined. A "code" can be deciphered straightforwardly with a
key,
i.e. a set of background assumptions, history of use, known
context,
etc.--that is, simple facts. So, to the extent that
Joyce's
work can be deciphered *simply* by referring to some fact
which
may be discovered by looking in an encyclopedia or other
reference
work, it is essentially of interest only to trivia buffs
(this
goes for Thomas Pynchon too). But I think what WSB was trying to
do goes
beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*
significance
that cannot be deciphered like a code. In other words, I
don't
think there is some independently known reality which can simply
be
susbstituted for what he says (which is what deciphering a code
amounts
to). What exactly this significance is, and how it's brought
about,
is something I'm still groping towards, and is still just an
intuition
(albeit a powerful one)--but if WSB's work were just
reducible
to its context, it would indeed be essentially
uninteresting.
Even though he may not have been entirely successful in
what he
set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the
right
track, that *something* happened here. I suspect too that if it
did
succeed, thus success would not take the form of something like a
fact,
and might very well be missed completely by someone looking for
"facts"
(which is the only thing a code can ever communicate)....
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:27:25 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
Comments:
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>
>
Subject:
> the scary WSB
> Date:
> Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:43:32 +0100
> From:
> Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
>
>
>
Cathy Wilkie wrote:
>
>
>
> thanks to all involved in this discussion--it makes burroughs not so
>
> scary to me anymore...
>
>
and Maggie Dharma wrote:
>
>
> You all have given me a desire
>
> to read something of WSB's besides Naked Lunch!
>
>
>
>
=== Cathy, Maggie, and others who have expressed similar views of WSB:
>
what is it that makes WSB so off-putting and 'scary'? I'm just curious.
> Is
it the horrific imagery in his 60's work, or the man himself? I can't
>
recommend highly enough a book called "Literary Outlaw" by Ted
Morgan,
>
the greatest WSB biography there is. It does much to dispel the myth of
>
WSB as a nihilist, sadist, and generally unlikable person.
Jeff:
I think
it is mostly this: my introduction to
beat lit started with "on
the
road" by Kerouac, and went on from there.
I've always leaned a
little
more towards his style of writing--the overly emotional feelings,
the joy
in the little things in life, the small moments in your life
that
have such an impact on who you become....
bearing
that in mind, to switch from that view of beat lit to
burroughs--tough. what i've read about burroughs in the
various
biographies
i've read essentially boil him down to one thing--he was a
freaky-type
dude, who thought way-out thoughts.
I've always claimed
ignorance
when it comes to the subject of burroughs.
i know who he is
what
he's written and all, but as far as reading his work itself, i've
always
been scared to read it. Maybe it's a fear
of discovering how the
mind
works, perhaps it's the thought that i will discover things about
my own
mind that i would rather not have learned.
Don't rightly know, i
guess
is what i'm saying.
I began
getting over that fear when i bought "kerouac-kicks joy
darkness". I thought burroughs voice sounded nice, so i
started paying
more
attention to what people were saying about him on here. MOst of
the
conversations, especially the wittgenstein-burroughs discussion, was
compleeeettly
over my head. But the recent discussion
has made sense to
me.
I'm
smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to
grad
school, and i resent the people who act like they know
'oh-so-much-more'
than other people, the prententious people.
They
unconciously
exclude people like me who want to learn, who want to know
more,
but can't understand their highly academic pseudo-language. I can
understand
most concepts, having it put in layperson's terms helps me at
times.
So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've stated
my ignorance on
burroughs,
i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to
understand. Anyone out there wanna teach me more about
burroughs?????
love ya
all,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:50:26 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "POMES, PENNY EACH."
<breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ed Sanders inquiry
Drea,
I am a
big Ed Sanders fan, let me know what you find. Sounds like you have most
of what
I already have but if I see anything of interest, Ill pass it on. I doo
have an
original of one of his old Beat Items catalog, the one that has
Ginsberg's
cock dent in a jar of vaseline in it for sale. Let me know if you
want a
xerox. Good luck, Sanders is great.
Dave B.
"BREITHAU@KENYON.EDU"
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:57:31 -0600
Reply-To: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wittgenstein? (and Nietzsche)
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.95q.980128003504.22606A-100000@landen.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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On Wed,
28 Jan 1998, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
> You know, I've often wondered why Nietzsche isn't mentioned more often
>
> in connection with WSB, or in WSB's own work. There seems to be a much
>
> more organic similarity with Nietzsche than with Wittgenstein. Not
>
> least because N also cited HiS's motto: ["Nothing is true;
>
> everything is permitted"]
>
>
Although one would have a hard time considering Burroughs a "Christian
>
free spirit", he certainly strays into the proposition and its
>
labyrinthine consequences in _The Cities of the Red Night_, where each
>
city holds a different convolution of the proposition.
Yes,
the fact that WSB has entered this labyrinth is what makes me
think
that an examination of Nietzsche (who also entered it) with WSB
in mind
might be more fruitful than the comparison to Wittgenstein,
who had
only Bertrand Russell and GE Moore as background.
>
> So if we are to avoid both this situation, as
>
> well as the claim that WSB simply contradicts himself by *writing*
>
> about the end of language, we would need a different, more powerful
>
> interpretive framework: N's conception of self-overcoming, perhaps.
>
>
I'm not sure that a "different interpretive framework" is necessary.
Well, I
mean "different from the one provided by Wittgenstein". I hope
I have
sufficiently established this by now.
>
Burroughs was not writing *about* the end of language, he was writing to
>
*bring about* the end of language.
Surely
these two need not be mutually exclusive.
But you
may very well be right in that what his writing *does* to
*bring
about* something like the end of language is probably more
interesting
than his explicit pronouncements *about* language. What
WSB
says explicitly *about* what he is doing is often contradictory:
1) How
is the "factualism" of his early work (primarily) supposed to
hang
together with the "Nothing is true...." position?
2)
[When talking about Korzybsky] He claims that either/or logic is a
basic
mistake of western thought, but then practically in the same
breath insists
that the word is not the object to which it refers--
which
is surely an either/or distinction if there ever was one.
It's
just not possible to be "against" either/or logic, since being
"against"
something is possible only on the basis of an either/or:
EITHER
either/or OR not either/or. I am convinced that either/or logic
is
necessary, at at least *some* level. AT THE VERY LEAST, we need
THIS
either/or: either something is different from something else in
some
way, or it is not. If it's not possible to tell whether something
is
different from anything else or not, then reality as whole would
just
melt down into one big undifferentiated blob.
What we
need to ask here is, I think, What is it exactly about
language
that is the problem? We can say, "It is a method of control",
but
what is it about language that makes such a thing possible? (And
why
should we consider "control" as something to be avoided?)
The
problem is, simply, that language is something *different* than
what it
is "about". The word is not the thing itself. It is this
difference
that makes mistakes, illusions, and frauds possible. But on
the
other hand, it seems to me, this difference is *also* what makes
independent
life (i.e., subjectivity) possible. There is no "I"
without
this difference; without this difference, there is no self in
terms
of which anything could be determined to be a mistake, illusion,
or
fraud (that is, a threat of some sort). In other words, the "self",
to be a
self at all, has to be determinably different from what it
perceives.
For something like "perception" to be possible at all, we
must
*repeat*, in a way, whatever it is we are perceiving, take it
into
ourselves--make ourselves a "universal" in a way (cf. what you
say
below, which seems to imply that our bodies are universals).
Something
absolutely singular, if it existed, could
never
be perceived at all or communicate with anything. An attack
against
language, therefore, also amounts to attacking things like
perception,
memory, communication--in fact, *experience in general*.
Which
would be quite a radical project, which WSB points toward when
he
talks about actual mutuations of what we are....whatever results
from
all this may very well be unrecognizable.....
So what
I am trying to dig out of WSB's work is, not some
straightforward
"attack against language", but to see if perhaps what
it
accomplishes is the introduction of a third, unassimilable element
into
all this, one not reducible to either an objective fact or an
enclosed
subjectivity. Does it do this? I don't know....maybe. Maybe
it
accomplishes this simply by exhibiting the essential
uncontrolableness
of language....something about language that
exceeds
the dichotomy mentioned above....something that makes this
dichotmomy
possible and even necessary in the first place but is not
captured
by it........
So
finally, we need to be careful to about declaring that WSBs project
has
"failed"....for what it aimed to do may not be expressibile as a
"fact".....
>
Burroughs' prison-break ultimately fails, although in systematically
>
disrupting the syntactic and authorial basis on which writing rests he
>
ruptured the tradition of discourse. The problem is that the rupture is
>
only temporary (time-bound), for the universal discourse absorbs the
>
singularity, and language rules again: in Burroughs' formulation the Word
>
forces us into our bodies, inscribes us in shit and Time, and there ain't
> no
escape lessen you figure out how to get into Space.
hope I
haven't been totally obscure,
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:01:14 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
In-Reply-To: <52cb3c8e.34d36f64@aol.com>
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I also
found a copy of Dharma Lion for 12 bucks. Has anyone read this
bio? Is
it any good? I forget who the author is,though.
On Sat,
31 Jan
1998,
Aeronwy Thomas wrote:
>
wow, nancy, congrats. i can imagine how thrilled i would be to get something
>
like that. =)
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:03:32 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PMDF.3.95.980131133953.571026136A-100000@ctrvax.Vanderbilt.Edu>
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Not at
all, Jeff. Im still way excited!On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Jeff Taylor
wrote:
> On
Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
>
> I nearly had a heart attack today when I picked up a used copy of AG's
>
> Journals:Mid-Fifties for 12 dollars and after I payed for it, the guy told
>
> me that it was a first edition. I flipped! I couldnt believe my luck! It
>
> perfectly complements my first edition of Collected Works:1947-1980. Im so
>
> verklempt!
>
>
Don't want to put a damper on your excitement, but I picked up the
>
same book, first-edition hardback, brand-new, in the summer of '96 for
>
$7. It was so cheap because this edition has been remaindered. Which
>
means it's unlikely ever to have much resale value on the used book
>
market. (Of course, that's still a good deal, considering that the
>
original cover price was $27.50)
>
>
*******
>
Jeff Taylor
>
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>
*******
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:49:38 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
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Jeff
Taylor wrote:
>
> I
have my doubts about this "code" theory as applied to WSB.
Granted,
> if
language cannot be "totally opaque" (else it wouldn't be capable of
>
communicating at all), nor totally transparent (else why would it be
>
needed at all, if the things themselves could be seen so clearly on
>
their own?)--is a "code" really the only other alternative?
===
No....it's no theory, and need not be so complicated : it's just a
matter
of course that Joyce's FW and WSB's cut-ups require some
adjustment
of the average reader's way of reading text, i.e. from linear
to
non-linear. I wouldn't compartmentalize all of literature down to the
three
options you just named.
>
> It
seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the sense you
>
have outlined.
===
Exactly. That's the point I was making.
>
(this goes for Thomas Pynchon too).
===
good point - "Gravity's Rainbow" would fall under this category.
>
But I think what WSB was trying to
> do
goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*
>
significance that cannot be deciphered like a code.
=== Oh,
I agree; I never meant to infer that I thought WSB (or Joyce,
for
that matter) was consciously writing in code. But in a very real
sense,
there *is* a code involved into learning to get into certain
writers
or certain books, and WSB's is far more complex than, say, Jack
London
or something. Without thinking of it as such, the diligent reader
is
learning WSB's codewords as s/he delves deeper : Tangiers, Kiki, boy,
junk-sick,
control, Pan, Dutch Schultz, Interzone, fix, croaker, script,
Johnsons,
shits, etc......since there is a conceptual continuity that
weaves
between all WSB's work, the more the seeker reads, the more
illuminated
s/he becomes. Put less pompously, "Bill talks about a lot
o'stuff
ya might not unnerstand at first, but eventually you start to
figger
out where he's comin' from".
>
Even though he may not have been entirely successful in
>
what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the
>
right track, that *something* happened here.
===
Again, I agree. What, then, do you think of my statement that
started
all this, that I wish WSB had tried for something as dense and
ambitious
as Finnegans Wake, adding his cut-up principle to the formula?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - Kentucky
potato
chips and Sonny Rollins
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:51:45 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB, Language etc..
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Jeff
says:
"The
problem is, simply, that language is something *different* than
what it
is "about". The word is not the thing itself. It is this
difference
that makes mistakes, illusions, and frauds possible. But on
the
other hand, it seems to me, this difference is *also* what makes
independent
life (i.e., subjectivity) possible. There is no "I"
without
this difference; without this difference, there is no self in
terms
of which anything could be determined to be a mistake, illusion,
or
fraud (that is, a threat of some sort). In other words, the "self",
to be a
self at all, has to be determinably different from what it
perceives.
For something like "perception" to be possible at all, we
must
*repeat*, in a way, whatever it is we are perceiving, take it
into
ourselves--make ourselves a "universal" in a way (cf. what you
say
below, which seems to imply that our bodies are universals).
Something
absolutely singular, if it existed, could
never
be perceived at all or communicate with anything. "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------
Is this
Derridas????? sure sounds like it.
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 19:03:15 EST
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: A cut-up in Holland
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WSB
started this way, (didn't he?)
listening
to Lester Young, 1944 stuff
thinking
about sandwiches
kentucky
kentucky
somewhere
in the wilderness of Kentucky
somewhere
in the wilderness of Kentucky
somewhere
in the wilderness of Kentucky
somewhere
in the wilderness of Kentucky
meditating
on Japanese candy
kentucky
cursing
a defective pencil sharpener
potato
chips and Sonny Rollins
kentucky
back
from creepin' in the woods
going
mountain climbing today
drinking
Amaretto for Breakfast
somewhere
in KY listening to Louis Jordan
....................................................................
copyright
1998, Irene D'Arma (go ahead, Jeffrey, try and sue me...)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:27:53 +0100
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland <jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Cathy: some WSB observations
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Cathy
Wilkie wrote:
> he
was a
>
freaky-type dude, who thought way-out thoughts.
===
it's all relative, though....back in the day, Kerouac was considered
a
freaky-type dude who thought way-out thoughts, such as:
"
Las mujeres blancas son la mierda" [white women are shit] I shudder to
hear
it, whole hordes of Mongolians shall overrun the western world
saying
that and they're only talking about the poor little blonde woman
in the
drugstore who's doing her best - By God, if I were Sultan! I
wouldn't
allow it! I'd arrange for something better! But it's only a
dream!
Why fret? The world wouldn't exist if it didn't have the power to
liberate
itself. Suck! Suck! suck at the teat of Heaven! Dog is God
spelled
backwards." (from "Desolation Angels")
WSB is
far freakier and way-out, of course, but perhaps that's his
position
- the next zen koan in line to untangle after conquering
Kerouac.
>
I'm smarter than your average bear, that's for sure, but i never went to
>
grad school, and i resent the people who act like they know
>
'oh-so-much-more' than other people, the prententious people.
=== I'm
pretty pretentious myself, but it keeps me warm in the winter
months.
But I agree, I can't stand literary snobs either, especially in
a field
that was supposed to be confrontational with things literary and
snobby.
I never went to college, period. (Well, Art school for a week
but I
dropped out, then enrolled at Eastern Kentucky University and
dropped
out the first day).
>
So: i've stated i'm here to learn, i've
stated my ignorance on
>
burroughs, i've stated how you have to talk to me in order for me to
>
understand. Anyone out there wanna
teach me more about burroughs?????
=== I
think everyone should read his biography by Ted Morgan, "Literary
Outlaw",
before reading a word of his own works. If you're already big
on Kerouac
and Ginsberg, reading "The Letters
of William S.Burroughs,
1945-1959"
is a good way to slip into the groove - most of the letters
are to
Ginsberg and many are to Kerouac....."The Yage Letters" also
includes
some of these letters, with Ginsberg's replies and some
drawings
by Ginsberg.....
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland, Kentucky
"here
we come, all drunk a-gaaaaain..."
- -
Memphis Jug Band, 1930
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:44:33 +0100
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: A cut-up in Holland
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Maggie
Dharma wrote:
>
(go ahead, Jeffrey, try and sue me...)
===
heh....I'll wait till you publish it somewhere....better ask for a
big
advance.
I just
read it out loud, doing my Jack Kerouac imitation, and by golly,
it
sounds like it has "it"......maybe I'll read it at my next
reading...(go
ahead, Maggie, try and sue me...)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - - Kentucky
Ah!
Sunflower, weary of time...um...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:50:47 -0700
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
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From: David Bruce Rhaesa
<race@MIDUSA.NET>
Organization:
smiling small thoughts
Subject: Re: Complaint of Skeleton to Time
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actually
everyone doesn't have an asshole though most have opinions. i
knew
this nurse named Nancy who was born .... well we won't go into
that!
dbr (oops SCOPE!!!!!!!!!!!)
Marie
Countryman wrote:
>=20
> mr
desautels,
> it
is coming to my awareness that you may
have come to the wrong list.=
i believe
>
the monty python list would be more appropriate a venue for your one li=
ners: i
>
would recommend either the arguement clinic, or, perhaps more aptly, th=
e
verbal
>
abuse department.
>
sincerely,
> mc
>=20
>
Edward Desautels wrote:
>=20
>
> Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink.
>
>
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> At 11:58 PM 1/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >What is this, freshman writing workshop!? Whats wrong with opinions?
>
> >conceptualizing, my ass.
>
> >
>
> >On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Edward Desautels wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> Apologies to anyone I've offended. I simply meant to imply that I
=
see
>
> little value in posting a piece in a forum such as this without
>
> conceptualizing it in a way that promotes some sort of worthwhile
>
> discussion. To simply state that one likes (or dislikes) a given piec=
e
>
> doesn't go very far toward generating ideas, perceptions, exchange. T=
ake to
>
> the next step, whether it be a personal insight or reflection on some
>
> aspect of the piece or something more lit crit/theoretical. How has t=
he
>
> piece influenced, say, your conception of a poetics. Something.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> As for tone, well, I yam what I yam. Besides, I'd just spent four
=
hours
>
> handing out flowers in the airport and had a headache like you read a=
bout.
:]
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Regards,
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Ed
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> At 07:37 AM 1/30/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> >ed: that's a bit harsh, don't you thinnk? lots of us on this
list=
serv
>
> but as of yet, you seeem to be the only one with total reading of tot=
ality
>
> of beat lit. and
>
> >>
>
> >> >speak for yourself, please. who is the "we" of you
speak?
>
> >>
>
> >> >i myself was delighted to read the pome for the first time,
and i=
've
>
> beeen reading ginsberg for years.
>
> >>
>
> >> >mc
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >Edward Desautels wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> Yes. We've read it. This is a Beat listserv.
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> >> Ed
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> >> At 07:27 PM 1/29/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> >> > Here's a great poem from Ginsberg's early career
(early 1949)=
that
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >I thought was well worth sharing.
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Complaint of the Skeleton to Time
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take my love, it is not true,
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >So let it tempt no body new;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take my lady, she will sigh
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >For my bed where'er I lie;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> >>
>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take my raiment, now grown cold,
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >To give to some poor poet old;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take the skin that hoods this truth
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >If his age would wear my youth;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> >>
>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take the thoughts that like the wind
>
> >>
> >
>> >> >Blow my body out of mind;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take this heart to go with that
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >And pass it on from rat to rat;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> >>
>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take the art which I bemoan
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >In a poem's crazy tone;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Grind me down, though I may groan,
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >To the starkest stick and stone;
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Take them, said the skeleton,
>
> >>
>
> >> >> > But leave my bones alone.
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> > Early on, it was obvious that Allen Ginsberg had
one of the g=
reatest
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >minds of his generation. His presence is sorely
missed in our
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >counterculture.
>
> >>
>
> >> >> > Maggie G.
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >"In dreams begin
responsibilities."--Delmore Schwartz
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >_________________________________________________________
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >DO YOU YAHOO!?
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >Get your free @yahoo.com address at
http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> >>
>
> >> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=D2*
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DA0
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DAp
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DA=A5
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4=DB=04
>
> >>
>
> >> >>
>
>
>
> =01=F4x8
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >>
>
> >> <center>**********************************************************=
**
>
> >>
>
> >> <bigger>Edward Desautels
>
> >>
>
> >> 7 Hamilton Road
>
> >>
>
> >> Somerville, MA 02144
>
> >>
>
> >> edesaute@bbnplanet.com
>
> >>
>
> >> http://www.shore.net/~debra/ed/homepage.html
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> "One day I found my shirt lying across my knees,
>
> >>
>
> >> I called it Beauty. Since thenI've been a painter of
shirts."
>
> >>
>
> >> Jacques Rigaut
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> </bigger>************************************************************=
</center>
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heave=
n For
>
> >Sure-JK
>
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 18:14:45 +0000
Reply-To: tkc@zipcon.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Christopher
<tkc@ZIPCON.COM>
Organization:
art language wholsale retail
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Andrea
Moore wrote:
>
>
Gallaher wrote:
>
>
"Ed Saunders would be a perfect example of
>
the sort of usurption of Beat that Kerouac didn't like."
>
-----------------------
>
can you elaborate on that? ...<snip>...
>
Drea
i dunno
that i agree.. ginsberg was friendly with saunders, who taught
early
on at naropa. keouac was a little
negative about the next
generation,
but he thought it was cool when elvis appeared on ed
sullivan
for the first time, and later said dylan was ok, so i don't
know
that he'd have disliked ed. i
understand the statement in the
sense
that saunders could've represented the 'younger generation' which
always
has it easier than the pioneers of the previous generation, and
is
never quite as bright or authentic, and i guess kerouac wasn't too
impressed
with the prankster scene, either, but i think one on one,
kerouac
would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they
ever
meet?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:31:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exciting News
Comments:
To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>
In-Reply-To: <34D3CF6D.2C1@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
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Adrien-
Living
in NYC definitely has its advantages. For those of you who live in
the
area, check out the Housing Works Used Book Store and Cafe. Its on
Crosby,
between Houston and whatever street comes after Houston, in Soho.
Its a
great little place.
On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Adrien Begrand wrote:
>
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
>
>
>I also found a copy of Dharma Lion for 12 bucks. Has anyone read this
>
>bio? Is it any good? I forget who the author is,though.
>
> Nancy,
>
> I
think it's the most definitive Ginsberg biography out there. It's as
>
comprehensive and well-written as the Kerouac bio Memory babe. You're so
>
lucky to be finding these books for so cheap!
>
>
Adrien
>
The
Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 20:05:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
In-Reply-To: <34D36F57.2E95@iclub.org>
MIME-version:
1.0
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On Sat,
31 Jan 1998, Jeffrey Scott Holland wrote:
>
> It seems to me that ALL ordinary language is a "code" in the
sense you
>
> have outlined.
>
>
=== Exactly. That's the point I was making.
Well,
the key word in what I said was "ordinary", that *ordinary*
language
(or more accurately, the ordinary understanding of language)
is a
code--BUT that WSB's writing (or at least what's most interesting
and
significant about it) is NOT "ordinary" language and therefore not
adequately
understood as a "code".
>
> But I think what WSB was trying to
>
> do goes beyond a simple code; it has some sort of *metaphysical*
>
> significance that cannot be deciphered like a code.
>
>
=== Oh, I agree; I never meant to infer that I thought WSB (or Joyce,
>
for that matter) was consciously writing in code. But in a very real
>
sense, there *is* a code involved into learning to get into certain
>
writers or certain books, and WSB's is far more complex than, say, Jack
>
London or something. Without thinking of it as such, the diligent reader
> is
learning WSB's codewords as s/he delves deeper : Tangiers, Kiki, boy,
>
junk-sick, control, Pan, Dutch Schultz, Interzone, fix, croaker, script,
>
Johnsons, shits, etc......since there is a conceptual continuity that
>
weaves between all WSB's work, the more the seeker reads, the more
>
illuminated s/he becomes. Put less pompously, "Bill talks about a lot
>
o'stuff ya might not unnerstand at first, but eventually you start to
>
figger out where he's comin' from".
I
agree, too, that there is a code here, but it's not a problem just
in
*certain* writers or *certain* books. There is, no doubt, a code
involved
in the inderstanding of *any* language--at some level. BUT
the
point I was trying to make is that the deciphering of the code
(insofar
as the coded utterance is always correlated with--and can
thus be
deciphered via--some referent, whether object or concept) in
fact
tell us little or nothing about the work's real significance,
what it's
really *about*. The determination of what objects or
concepts
are being referred to or invoked amounts only to the
statement
of the problem, not to its solution.
>
> Even though he may not have been entirely successful in
>
> what he set out to do, nevertheless it's possible that he was on the
>
> right track, that *something* happened here.
>
>
=== Again, I agree. What, then, do you think of my statement that
>
started all this, that I wish WSB had tried for something as dense and
>
ambitious as Finnegans Wake, adding his cut-up principle to the formula?
Well,
as is perhaps obvious by now, I don't think it would have added
very
much, insofar as the "density" of JJ is nothing more than a long
series
of obscure allusions and references to little-known
facts--whether
these facts be objective ones or the record of some
stream-of-consciousness
dialogue.
Maybe
this will help more: here is a quotation from Kierkegaard, in
which
he is explaining how to interpret Socrates:
There is a painting that shows Napoleon's
grave. Two tall
trees shade the grave. There is nothing
else to see in the work,
and the unsophisticated observer sees
nothing else. Between the two
trees is an empty space; as the eye follows
the outline, suddenly
Napoleon himself emerges from this nothing,
and now it is
impossible to have him disappear
again....So also with Socrates.
One hears his words in the same way one
sees the trees; his words
mean what they say, just as the trees are
trees. There is not one
single syllable that gives a hint of any
other interpretation, just
as there is not one single line that
suggest Napoleon; and yet this
empty space, this nothing, is what hides
what is most important.
So by
deciphering Socrates' code, one gets only the trees, and may
still
miss completely the big picture, what it's really about. The
code
*itself* gives no hint of what is most important....one must see
beyond
it. Likewise with WSB, and perhaps every other significant
writer....one
must see beyond the details, try to see the larger
picture
it makes.
*******
Jeff
Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 21:39:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread"
<cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry
Mime-Version:
1.0
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At
06:14 PM 1/31/98 +0000, Tom Christopher wrote:
<snip>
>kerouac
would've respected saunders' talent and
>brains....ah...did
they ever meet?
Yup, on
"The Firing Line" with William F. Buckley.
Kerouac
also contributed to Sanders' magazine
_Fuck
You_. I believe the television incident
was the
first formal meeting.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:16:17 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Scott Holland
<jholland@ICLUB.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB, Wild Boys, Word=Virus
MIME-Version:
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Jeff
Taylor wrote:
>
BUT that WSB's writing (or at least what's most interesting
>
and significant about it) is NOT "ordinary" language and therefore
not
>
adequately understood as a "code".
===
maybe I've had too much Amaretto tonight and the bullet-memes are
sailing
right over the glass on my head, but it seems to me that the
less
ordinary a language is, the more code-like it is, in that the
average
reader must strive harder because the key is more encoded, and
thus,
understand fully what has been written.
>
There is, no doubt, a code
>
involved in the inderstanding of *any* language--at some level.
=== Oh,
sure, that's been my contention all along too, that language =
code.
>
the point I was trying to make is that the deciphering of the code
>
(insofar as the coded utterance is always correlated with--and can
>
thus be deciphered via--some referent, whether object or concept) in
>
fact tell us little or nothing about the work's real significance
===
well, this would be purely subjective.
>
The determination of what objects or
>
concepts are being referred to or invoked amounts only to the
>
statement of the problem, not to its solution.
=== I
see what you're saying here, but often the medium really IS the
message.
The ideas one gleans from WSB's work, cut-up or not, are very
subjective
and open to interpretation, yet zumtimes a banana ist chust a
banana.
I think WSB believed that by rearranging his words and words of
others
in just the right way, he was setting in motion something that
could
be alternately compared to an alchemical formula, a codex, a magic
spell
of sorts - that imparted information that could not be otherwise
conveyed
by remotely linear means. Such WSB-induced satoris are not
immediately
evident; I didn't realize how drastically WSB changed the
way I
think until years later.
>
Well, as is perhaps obvious by now, I don't think it would have added
>
very much, insofar as the "density" of JJ is nothing more than a long
>
series of obscure allusions and references to little-known
>
facts--whether these facts be objective
===
aha, but reread WSB's essay on the nature of coincidence. I have no
doubt
that if WSB were taking part in this conversation, he would say
something
like "nothing is obscure under quan-tum physics, all obscure
references
are frrrraught with im-portance.....any given sentence is
denser
with in-formation thaaaan any. man. dreams. "
> So
by deciphering Socrates' code, one gets only the trees, and may
>
still miss completely the big picture, what it's really about. The
>
code *itself* gives no hint of what is most important
===
Right. Or to use a simpler analogy, learning the symbols in Chinese
(a
herculean task at that) still doesn't mean you understand Chinese,
because
they only represent phonetic shapes - you still have to learn
what
the Chinese words formed by the symbols *mean*.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jeffrey
Scott Holland - Ky
my head
hurts
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 22:49:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: the scary WSB
Content-Type:
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First
off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not
wrong.
Homosexual intercourse with teenage boys was common in Greece and
many of
other parts of the world. If they consent to it's not wrong.
Secondly
sex with a teenage boy is different than that of a prepubesent
child.
A young child is totaly nonacceptable. A teenager is
physiologicaly
ready for sexual intercourse. A young child is not. As
far as
I know William S. Burroughs only had sex with teenage boys.
Therfore
he is not a pedophile. Reading this I hope you will see the
idot is
you,Denny. I hope this was enlightening for you.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:09:46 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Andrea Moore <BMXDREA@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sanders Inquiry etc..
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Tom
wrote:
"but
i think one on one,
kerouac
would've respected saunders' talent and brains....ah...did they
ever
meet?"
----------------------------------------------
Kerouac
and Sanders did meet. Sanders lived in New York (and roomed with J.C.
Holmes,
in fact), and supposedly Kerouac and bar buddies would come over over
and
crash into Sanders' family life quite often. (It was all in good humor,
though)
Sanders worked and had kids and all that, so he wasn't as into the
Kerouac
drunken wandering bar to bar thing. I learned of all this from some
letters
from Kerouac to John Holmes.
Also,
Sanders really wasn't a part of the
Pranksters thing. He was a fug and
a
member of the yippie thing, but i think that's after Kerouac was in his
weird
state--at home with his mom and cats and TV.
Drea
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:21:51 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: WSB and pedophilia?
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In a
message dated 31-Jan-98 7:50:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bonmark@WEBTV.NET
writes:
<<
First off if a teenage boy consented for sex with a older man it is not
wrong. Homosexual intercourse with teenage
boys was common in Greece >>
Mark,
This is
a difficult topic to make generalizations about, but I think if some
are
going to be made, they should be made in favor of childhood, however long
that
lasts, and also in favor of better, more mature judgment on the part of
adults.
A lot
of teenaged girls are of legal age, sexually speaking, but they are not
in full
possession of the maturity required to make decisions about sexual
consent.
As a result, many are exploited and a whole shitload get pregnant.
Except
for the pregnant part, the identical is true for teenaged boys.
There
are also a lot of reasons why kids might consent to sex or actually be
groomed
for sex with older people. Many of those reasons are self-destructive,
or
relate to low self-esteem or a life-pattern of sexual abuse and/or
exploitation.
Your
average teenage kid, if sexually active, is looking for a partner who's
on the
same level. A child who seeks out an adult for sex is probably not
really
seeking sex, but to fulfill some horrible prophecy about him or herself
that
was learned in childhood abusive situations. It's just not natural for
people
of such vast age differences WHERE THE LEVEL OF MATURITY AND POWER is
so
inequitable for sex to exist. Nor, in my opinion, is it good.
What
I'm saying is that if two people have sex, there should be completely
equal
awareness of what is happening. Otherwise, it's not truly
"consenting."
A
person who hasn't even qualified for a driver's license or is not yet
considered
mature enough to cast a vote should also not be a candidate for sex
with
someone significantly older. That's predatory.
Lastly,
adults should know better. Even if a child wanted to have sex, or
appeared
to want to have sex, a mature, rational adult response would be to
say,
"I'm flattered, but this is the only time you have to be a kid and it
will
never come again. I'm not going to take that away from you."
It's
something best judged on a case-by-case basis, of course, but Lolita was
not for
real; just the fantasy of dirty old men. A child is a child, and there
is no
magic age when that stops and adulthood begins, even though a rip-
roaring,
hormone-driven sex drive may also exist. It's much more complicated
than
the argument you've laid out here, I think.
Speaking
from stolen innocence here,
Maggie
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:35:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Ricard <bonmark@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?
Content-Type:
TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
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Let me
say a few things. First it depends on the individual not the age
group.
Maybe some teenagers are mature enough,some are not.
The
real thing I was trying to get at was WSB really a child molester?
This
was what I was trying to determine,not a course in ethics.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:48:10 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Dharma <IDDHI@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB and pedophilia?
Mime-Version:
1.0
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In a
message dated 31-Jan-98 8:37:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
bonmark@WEBTV.NET
writes:
<<
The real thing I was trying to get at was WSB really a child molester? >>
And I
have to say I honestly can't answer this, because I don't know enough
about
his sex life. Certainly, the best-qualified to answer this would be any
young
men he did have sex with.
Some of
his lovers were 40 or 50 years younger than he but entirely able to
consent.
I haven't heard any stories about now-grown men who felt abused or
molested
by Burroughs (or Ginsberg, for that matter). It is a distasteful
subject
to me, I'll admit, especially because of that NAMBLA connection. The
entire
concept of "man-boy love" is, in my opinion, just a way of saying,
"I
want to
fuck a child."
There
are a lot of ugly things one sees when one turns the lens to focus on
the
entire canvas of another person's life. Probably, attempting to speculate
about
this subject won't do any good. Possibly, it'll look even uglier as a
result.
I don't
know, I can't answer. I hope it wasn't inappropriate, what he did,
what
Ginsberg did. Who does know? Who can answer this question? Maybe this
list
can't.
Maggie