>From: Bruce K. Isaacson, 102747,2722
>DATE: 6/14/97 4:39 PM
>RE: Ginsberg Night at Enigma Garden, Las
Vegas, Nevada
>
>For
your information.....
>
>June 3,
1997 was Allen Ginsberg's 71st birthday.
On that evening, a
>group
of 60 or so Las Vegas poets, writers, artists, bohos, and other
>illuminati
turned out to remember Allen and honor his work and
>contribution. There were notable poems commemorating
Allen's work from
>German
Santanilla and Gregory Crosby. Dayvid
Figler got the crowd
>bubbling
with his own work and brought an excellent version of Allen
>reading
"America", which held the audience intensely with its Vegas-like
>mix of
humor and ennui. Emmanuel read Allen's
poem written to an
>Eldorado
High School student, which contains a visionary mix of Howard
>Hughes-like
paranoia and old-fashioned Mob lore to
describe Vegas of
>the 70s
and America still. Other parts of
Allen's work read included
>Ignu
and Kaddish. Tribute poems to Allen by
excellent poets who Allen
>favored
such as Bob Kaufman and Helen Adam were also read aloud. There
>was a
score of Allen's books passed around by various people who brought
>them,
including some limited editions as well as City Lights and Harper
>&
Row publications. Las Vegas poets who
read also included Art Slate,
>Eavonka
Ettinger, Joel Parilini, Mike Gullickson, Mike Flower, Jackie
>Nourigat,
Mark Griffith and Gloria King. A good
time was had by all
>who
attended and many came away with increased interest in one of
>America's
unique and excellent voices.
>
>Thanks
to Las Vegas journalist and Enigma Cafe owner Lenadams Doris for
>making
it possible. I'd welcome hearing from
anyone with other
>remembrances
or comment.
>
>Bruce
Isaacson
>BruceI@compuserve.com
>Within
a few weeks I expect the e-mail address to change to
>BruceI@skylink.net
>
>
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>* This occasional newsletter is sent to those
who have *
>* visited our Ginsberg site. If you do not wish to *
>* receive these very rare messages, simply hit
reply *
>* and type REMOVE in the subject line. We'll get you *
>* taken off the list immediately! To be added to the *
>* mailing list, just drop us a line: *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>* mongo.bearwolf@dartmouth.edu *
>*--------------------------------------------------------*
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:32:33 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K"
<dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: [eye] Sum [soup]
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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little kid
chinese
restaurant
pickup
sticks
make em
click
yum yum
mu shu new
shu
size 11
hmm
[[ spent a
good hour last night listening to the sights in my
neighborhood
[[ per
Aristotle, we're supposed to be able to modify our hearing
[[ but
fixed in our vision, seeing, perceptions and believing
[[ the
words before you are true ??? listening?
sounds like
a vision >>Douglas
"the
map is not the territory"
babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
>----------
>From: James William
Marshall[SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]
>Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 11:01 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Sum
>
>eyes
>boren
captifitee
>anne
wayting anne wayting
>four
>sum one
two
>smutherme
>
>
James M.
<<nice>>
reminds me
of Patti Smith and Tom Verlaine's "the night"
>all
this "eye" talk
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:50:13 -0400
Reply-To: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tracy J Neumann
<tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970715114032.29026A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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The
impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
for JK's
portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
the rift
between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
diverging
lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
carolyn
cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
Tracy
On Tue, 15
Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>
> > *
Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy printed
> >
but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
> >
again ciao.
> >
> >
do any of you know anything about this?
was this the beginning of the rift
> >
between them?
> >
> >
ciao,
> >
sherri
> >
>
> I
think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
> two
kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
> $$$
with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
> Neal
went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
>
typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)
When Neal was out of jail,
> he
asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
> he
could feed his kids, and Jack refused.
In her book, "Off the Road",
>
Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 14:55:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Lusha M. Kaufmann"
<kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lusha M. Kaufmann"
<kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU>
Subject: Info on Billie Holiday
Mime-Version:
1.0
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Hello, I
had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
presentation
on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday,
unfortunately the
time
restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels
to find
mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this
list. I plead ignorance of most beat lit, and
therefore seek your help
even more.
Thank you
Lush
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:10:01 -0400
Reply-To: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
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MIME-Version:
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This isn't
exactly beat ( I believe he's usually saddled with the label
"NY
School of Poets"-- which a friend once pointed out sounds like he
took a
correspondence class advertised on a
matchbook cover...), but
Frank
O'Hara's The Day Lady Died is a really lovely tribute, and among
my favorite
poems.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:01:08 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter
<dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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> R.
Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> I get
the feeling Jack is an impressionist painter here, just not up to
> par
with some other things he has done. What
is he going for here?
> Where
and why is he choosing this course.
>
> I am
hopelessly bogged down in Part II.
>
> Next,
how about some Proust?
>
> I
think it is like You Can't Go Home Again and The Web and the Rock,
>
unfinished works that leave one wanting the greatness that is partially
>
revealed full flung.
>
> So, I
am not sure I will finish Cody this second time. But I tried.
Bentz,
The more of
Cody I read, the more I like it. I think
that the hard thing
to grasp is
the mixture of writing styles but that's inherent in an
approach
that takes events out of time and treats them as visions,
perhaps dream-like,
expressions of moments. I do think that
he thought a
lot about
the structure of this book and that there is a method in his
madness, so
to speak. I've still got another hundred
pages to go and I
don't know
how it ends, but I think he was struggling with a way to
present
timelessness and unconscious/mythical configurations as an
overlay
over actual events, and that is a hard thing to do and a hard
thing to
read. I'm still not sure if he's pulled
it off.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:06:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
Comments:
To: babu@electriciti.com
In a
message dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:
<<
I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there
with Neal instead? >>
That's a
good one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink
would have
been off just like the portraits.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:19:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: love_singing@msn.com
Of course.
Where would any of us be with the petty quarrling?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:51:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a
message dated 97-07-15 15:11:57 EDT, you write:
<< Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
typewriter to use in his cell but thats
all) >>
Thanks a
lot. Yeah. I'll never forget those eyes when Neal pleaded with me to
lend him a
fin ($5.00) to buy gas to the Hell's Angels party. It's a look you
never want
to see. I've seen it on the Bowery and every skid row too much. He
had to make
a big deal about paying me back. Of course he never had to go
through any
of this. And It wasn't part of a con; It was atavistic. So
anyway,
fuck miserly Jack, who had a lot of things going for him except
class. Neal
had more of that.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:20:08 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
Comments:
To: tjneuman@umich.edu
In a
message dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:
<<
and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement
over money?
Tracy >>
I'd guess
that money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,
Unless, of
course he was humping her whlie N was in prison.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:34:07 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To: <33CBBAE4.2E42@together.net>
Mime-Version:
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At 11:01 AM
-0700 7/15/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> I'm
still not sure if he's pulled it off.
see Man
Ray, "L'enigme d'Isidore Ducasse" (1920)
and what's
underneath? pray tell, Diane?
> DC =
deux chat
dancing
pirate
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up,
and let the man come thru let
the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:30:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
<<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
to find mention of her. >>
Oh fer
Chrissake!
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:32:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: kaufmanl@pacificu.edu, baculum@mci2000.com
In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.
Kaufmann)
writes:
<<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
to find mention of her. So I was hoping to get
some information from this
list. I
plead ignorance of most beat lit, and therefore seek your help
even more.
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:40:38 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
MIME-Version:
1.0
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Tracy J
Neumann wrote:
>
> The
impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
> for
JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
> the
rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
>
diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
>
carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
>
> Tracy
>
> On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>
> >
On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
> >
> >
> * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy
printed
> >
> but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
> >
> again ciao.
> >
>
> >
> do any of you know anything about this?
was this the beginning of the
rift
> >
> between them?
> >
>
> >
> ciao,
> >
> sherri
> >
>
> >
> > I
think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
> >
two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
> >
$$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
> >
Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
> >
typewriter to use in his cell but thats all)
When Neal was out of jail,
> >
he asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
> >
he could feed his kids, and Jack refused.
In her book, "Off the Road",
> >
Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
> >
You forget
to mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn.
Disagreements
over sexual
situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements
about money
last longer--beleive me, I've been there.
This one was
about
money. Jack was no sexual threat to
Neal.
James
Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:34:12 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott
<pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
MIME-Version:
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now now
charlie, don't you feel like doing this persons homework,
why we could suggest a reading list. I won't
flame the guy cause that
soft
hearted salina guy will tut me with his patience. and i have been
there, don't feel like actually reading the stuff
and then coming up
with an
idea of something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an
idea and ask
people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't
been there.
because i
love to read and talk
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:47:26 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Literary Dandies
In-Reply-To:
<970715230547_-1125008626@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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At 8:06 PM
-0700 7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a
message dated 97-07-15 05:16:38 EDT, you write:
>
>
<<
> I wonder what if Andy Warhol had been there
with Neal instead? >>
>
> That's
a good one. Stills in action = film. Fast fwd. with Neal. The Lip sink
> would
have been off just like the portraits.
no no
no. those were the pissing
portraits. where Joe Dellasandro emptied
his
bladder. and don't forget fuck, heat,
and what where some of his other
film
titles? Will never forget Dracula and
Frankenstein. changed me
forever as
a kid. jeez, and can't keep bowie's
suffragette city off my
tape
player, either. damn.
I miss
Andy. and Versace who died today. all dandies must morn. Andy
created the
term "superstar". Got his
start designing shoe advertisments.
Who would
have thought? that some other agenda
should come along and shoot
him!
but andy
would have talked real slow. I'm told he
had quite the wit, but
don't know
if Neal wouldn't get quickly bored with him.
Kerouac at least
seems to
keep his attention. they cruised similar
strips. I guess andy
and neal
would talk about cars and chicks or fame and death and dying.
yeah? <<Andy
yeah. <<Neal
[[lots of
staring out to sea
> C
Plymell = count plymouth
dancing
paris
<<laugh......
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up,
and let the man come thru let
the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:49:01 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In-Reply-To:
<970715231931_1961001112@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version:
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At 8:19 PM
-0700 7/15/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Of
course. Where would any of us be with the petty quarrling?
without
Charles. WITHOUT!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:13:39 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To:
<970716003008_-1460255033@emout12.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version:
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On Wed, 16
Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>
>
<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
> time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
> to find mention of her. >>
>
> Oh fer
Chrissake!
> C.
Plymell
dear
plymell:
>
what the
hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
there and
how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
response brings
up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
questings.
if you are
not --any of you--interested in responding in some
constructive
way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
snotty
repost from deep left field!!!!
steve
(who is, in
all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
mentions---and
i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
message to
the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
they will
talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
about";
i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
work for
her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
for views
and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
snotty
snit.)
s.s.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:24:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Blues for Gianni
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Sic transit
gloria, Gianni
No beat
certainly but terrific flair.
A loss to
Eurotrash everywhere. Not a dandy tho,
sort of an
anti-dandy--the
triumph of flash over taste, but god rest his soul. I'll
miss the
catalogs, acres of lovely flesh to sell a teacup or a necktie.
Warhol
would have liked him, I should think.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 23:36:36 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
MIME-Version:
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Steve,
As one who
flamed your student let me just say this.
If someone came on
the list
with a question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to
test, I
think they'd get a fair response. The
post which started this
admitted a
lack of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.
How would
you like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with
On the
Road. I don't have time to read it,
could someone please help me
by posting
a summary. Thanks so much. I sure am looking forward to
being a
college graduate."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:02:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey
Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33CC6BF4.605E@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version:
1.0
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On Tue, 15
Jul 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Steve,
>
> As one
who flamed your student let me just say this.
If someone came on
> the
list with a question about Billie and the Beats, or a hypothesis to
> test,
I think they'd get a fair response. The
post which started this
>
admitted a lack of time to do the reading and just asked for shortcuts.
> How
would you like "Dear Beat List, I have a paper assigned dealing with
> On the
Road. I don't have time to read it,
could someone please help me
> by
posting a summary. Thanks so much. I sure am looking forward to
> being
a college graduate."
>
dear james:
bit of a logical fallacy in yer response above, eh? yes, she did
mention
lack of time--a bit of a fall on her part: what she was saying
most of all
(negated or circumscribed due no doubt to email structure and
her own
nervousness about posting to the list for the first time) was
that she
was looking for extra stuff AFTER her own work.
the logical
fallacy gig i mention is that not one part of your analogy
even
remotely applies to her original post or to the spirit of it.
however, i
do see how you might go off half-cocked like this-----i made
the same
mistake (as i painfully found out) on another list
i monitor
all lists that i suggest my students use for conversation and
info---i
would consider it a serious breach of academic honesty for any
of them to
get others to do their work for them; i do not in the
slightest
way feel that lusha has done such a thing on the beat-l list
i must say
that i will think twice before i suggest the list address to
my students
in the future
please,
james, do not consider this a response only to you--in tone or in
content; i
am up in arms in a general way--and always with the best
interests
of my student and her interests and feelings in mind
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 00:16:48 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
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I tend to
agree with Charles on this one.
Forgetting hat it sounds a lot
someone
asking for someone else to do their homework (a common event on "the
net")
But,
Billie
Holiday is not "a Women beat".
Might as well do a topic on Buddy
Bolden
Jimmie Rodgers or Robert Johnson or maybe in keeping with the woman
theme,
Bessie Smith or Lena Horne or Sarah Vaughn or anybody How Kate (God
Bless
America Smith?). How about Patsy Cline?
I guess you
are limiting the topics to people mentioned in Beat writing.
How about
Yma Sumac???
Also, what
do you expect to glean from the writings and poetry you don't
have time
to read in terms of a presentation on Billie Holliday? So is your
presentation
about Billie Holliday or about what was written about her by
some
drunken beatniks? Letting us know more would help.
The easyest
way for you to learn something about Billie Holliday is to go to
Blockbuster
video and rent Lady Sings the Blues (1972 starring Diana Ross
and Billie
Dee Williams).
And to
answer your question anyhoooooow (so don't say I didn't help ya) in
Visions of
Cody there is a bit where they mention Billie Holliday and her
song Gloomy
Sunday as the suicide song of the thirties.
And also
don't go sulk. Write back if you are
actually keen on this.
At 11:13 PM
7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Wed,
16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>> In
a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
>>
>>
<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
>> texts.
I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing a
>> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
>> time restraint has made it difficult to read
all of the poems and novels
>> to find mention of her. >>
>>
>> Oh
fer Chrissake!
>> C.
Plymell
>
>dear
plymell:
>>
>what
the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i
was
>there
and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
>response
brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
>enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
>questings.
>
>if you
are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
>constructive
way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
>snotty
repost from deep left field!!!!
>
>steve
>
>(who
is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
>mentions---and
i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
>message
to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
>they
will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
>about";
i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
>work
for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
>for
views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
>snotty
snit.)
>
>s.s.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:17:41 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Just because some beat me to it don't
mean I can't say it too
Comments:
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Say what?
Thank you David. Not that that tired old clich=E9 means
anything,
nor do i mean to insinuate in any way that you did it looking
for any
kind of thanks or something like it, still i been wantin to tell
you as soon
as I read your piece, that was just one of those things that
happen once
in a great while when something is just all right, in the
right time,
and right on time too, not to mention right on target, The
best for
the last after all kinds of agonizing brilliant flashes
sparking
energies all around.
As I found
myself writing to a friend I suddenly realized I should let
you know
too how it made me feel. And now that I do, I would be less
than candid
if I didn't mention to you that this protesting of
illiteracy so much does make me wonder, hey what's going
on here.
Myself I
thought one of the virtues of your post was that it took a
populist
style so to speak as opposed to an exhibition of alive
effervescent
erudition and agility like almost magician sparkling before
my eyes,
still not quite matching my non-literary real life
nevertheless,
impressions of the subject of these eloquent theories also
that plain
folks like me also are grateful to be
within ear shot though
feeling not
up to the task of entering knowledgeable literary, poetic
philosophic
let alone moral judgments and considerations, in other words
having
enjoyed the great inspired symphony in awed drop jaw silence, you
helped me
catch my breath again, to find my voice jabbering nonsense,
forgive me
everybody
I am
delighted with the poetic justice that awarded you such a fitting
celebration
after the brilliant flowers that shot up in the garden that
you
planted. You drew such dedicated energy of such immense talents.
ending with
such a beautiful bouquet to crown the fruits of David's
taking your
call so close to his heart, which beats
pretty close to
that
backpack also, and coming through, coming through, hey guys, look
at it this
way. I too felt a strong draw to immediately let him know how
welcome his touch was, but I was derailed. I had time
to answer a
couple of
letters. And one thing I did that I hadn't done before, was
forward a
post. I was answering John Cassady's invitation for a lunch,
and I added
on to him David's post. Come to think of it, I too should
say
something to David (Our counterpart of Rinaldo Rasa?). Now that I
think of it
I'll snip this his part of this letter and send it to him.
He deserves
all the responses that he gets. End of snip
Now come to
think of it again, I'll mail it to us on the list.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 05:59:49 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
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At 12:32 AM
7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a
message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, kaufmanl@PACIFICU.EDU (Lusha M.
>Kaufmann)
writes:
>
><<
Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
>
texts. I am taking summer course on the
Beat greats and we are doing a
>
presentation on Women beats. I choose
Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
> time
restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and novels
> to
find mention of her. So I was hoping to get some information from this
>
list. I plead ignorance of most beat
lit, and therefore seek your help
> even more.
> >>
>
Billy was a
wonderful singer, but who ever said she was a beat?
Anyway,
look at the Diane Ross film Lady Sings the Blues if you
want a
distorted overview.
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:04:28 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
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At 11:34 PM
7/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>now now
charlie, don't you feel like doing this persons homework,
> why we
could suggest a reading list. I won't flame the guy cause that
>soft
hearted salina guy will tut me with his patience. and i have been
>there, don't feel like actually reading the stuff
and then coming up
>with an
idea of something interesting to write. I just randomly pick an
>idea
and ask people . maybe hit the yahoo search button.ok i haven't
>been
there.
>because
i love to read and talk
>p
>
>
The last
time I saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the
City Lights
bookstore in S.F., tying up her arm for a hot
shot of
horse from a syringe dangling from her
purse. Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I
that
night, but
she didn't seem to give a shit. She had
a date
to meet
Lenny Bruce in front of City Lights. So
who shows
up? Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert
Goldman!
Strange
Fruit, don't you think?
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 06:03:04 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice
<mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
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At 09:40 PM
7/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Tracy J
Neumann wrote:
>>
>>
The impression i got from CC's book was that Neil didn't particularly care
>>
for JK's portrayl of him, and that after a while he got over it. As for
>>
the rift between them, wouldn't it be more accurate to attribute this to
>>
diverging lifestyles (and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
>>
carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
>>
>>
Tracy
>>
>> On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
>>
>>
> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Sherri wrote:
>>
>
>>
> > * Kerouac gave to Neal Cassady the first "On The Road" copy
printed
>>
> > but Neal Cassady didn't demonstrate any interest to the book *
>>
> > again ciao.
>>
> >
>>
> > do any of you know anything about this? was this the beginning of the
> rift
>>
> > between them?
>>
> >
>>
> > ciao,
>>
> > sherri
>>
> >
>>
>
>>
> I think the rift that drove them apart was that Neal was trying to raise
>>
> two kids with wife Carolyn at near poverty level and Jack was making big
>>
> $$$ with a book *about* him and wouldnt share even a penny. Even when
>>
> Neal went to jail on a pot bust, Jack refused to help (did buy Neal a
>>
> typewriter to use in his cell but thats all) When Neal was out of jail,
>>
> he asked Jack's permission to publish their voluminous correspondence so
>>
> he could feed his kids, and Jack refused.
In her book, "Off the Road",
>>
> Carolyn Cassady is quite pointed about Jack's miserliness.
>>
>
>
>
>You
forget to mention that Neal set Jack up with Carolyn. Disagreements
>over
sexual situations like this one last awhile for men. Disagreements
>about
money last longer--beleive me, I've been there.
This one was
>about
money. Jack was no sexual threat to
Neal.
>
>James
Stauffer
>
>
Listen,
Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
and had
been lovers, at least at times. isn't it
possible
homosexuality
played a role in their rift?
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:12:47 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Gianni Versace.
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COME VORREI MORIRE by Gianni Versace
COME IL CONTE SALINA DI LAMPEDUSA,
IL GATTOPARDO: GUARDANDO
IL LAGO, CON SERENITA'.
LA MORTE NON MI FA PAURA.
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 07:04:50 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: From Cody to Stephen
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Good
Morning,
Friends,
and that is what i feel so many of you are, cybernetically
connected
to me more closely than most people i know - i thought i would
sit down
for a moment this morning while sipping my first cup of coffee
and express
some gratitude for all the wonderful comments i have
received
recently both on the List and Off. I
must admit that my big
toe is
swelling a bit but fortunately not my head yet. =20
A very wise
man taught me through a book that it is all about having an
angle and
so i guess that i just looked at all the different geometric
shapes
created by others and then stepped back about ten paces and took
in the
larger portrait. =20
I've
enjoyed the specific comments and what one refered to me as the
reinvigoration
of the cyberthread or something along those lines. I
believe
that certain people have made a serious question about the
nature of
the gift that Jack gave Cody and the appreciation of it and i
really just
thought about the times at Christmas and Birthdays when
people who
loved me with their hearts full gave me presents that were so
far from
what i really desired that i sometimes wanted to scream - don't
you know
i'll never wear these things! But i
never did because to me
there is
something about intentionality when it comes to the giving of
gifts even
of the legendary and the mythic variety - and even in these
perhaps
archetypal rituals of gift-giving we can look back and say that
it is the
thought that counts.
As i said,
i am moving ahead to another book and today on July 16 i will
finally
crack this book by James Joyce that just feels powerful. I
believe
that i will actually read this book about June 16 very slowly
and
linearly.
I realize
the journey will be dangerous. A dear
friend in Kansas City
reported
that half way through Ulysses he had a stroke.
The doctors
didn't
declare any causal relationship but it makes you wonder.
So armed
with guides and bodyguards and a rolling tape of the Grateful
Dead
playing Saint Stephen in my mind i trudge forward. I will turn
into the
chapter titled I this morning some time.
Here were
my impressions of Judging the upcoming book by its cover...
Erasing
Apollo - Erasing Bacchus: Another tale in the Legend of
Abraxas......
I hold the
black and white book in my hands listening to a man with my
middle name
as he maps the stars that one reads on a journey along the
road of the
physical world or along the roads twisting and turning in
and out as
one attempts to find the oblique pathway back to the sanity
of times
forgotte. The eternal myth of return is
recounted in this
black and
white book and I have so many guides helping me from stars
beyond
parallel universes all the way home to the safety and security of
a sacred
bathroom in an apartment named #23. This
journey is the
oblique
pathway from insanities so personal that perhaps they should not
be
told. Some say that in the telling I can
help others to find their
way but
each route winds a different road up and around hollers in the
mountains
and back through misty mornings in the hill country going
through the
roots of one=92s psyche and physical ancestry chasing a hope
of return,
return to something that maybe never was but hopefully will
be when I
get there. This map is not an accurate
description of the
territory
and at best is my individual map and no one can learn
themselves
from it, only me. For those who find
that uninteresting, as
I might, I
would not be at all offended if you set this down and
returned to
your busy lives and the realities of everyday magic that you
love and
cherish. If you don=92t love and cherish
the everyday elements
of your
life, perhaps you should read on for a bit at least, because the
places and
stories of the unreal-realities that were so deeply felt to
me makes
the lives of the average James and Joyce a portrait of the
mysteries
of happiness. I hold the book in my
hand. Just holding it is
enough for
now. No need to open this book yet. =20
Some might
think my perceptions off for saying that this is a black book
with white
letters. Even I did for quite some
time. Many say don=92t
judge a
book by its cover and being the intrinsically rebellious type I
have done
so for many many years. My judgement is
that this will be a
good
book. I think of Melanie=92s line - wish
I could find a good book t=
o
live
in. I don=92t really feel that I will
live in this book, not
permanently
at least, but it appears at first glance to be a good enough
to help me
find my way into my own book, a book that does not represent
my Self but
actually is me. Hopefully, these
somewhat random musings
along the
journey through this good book will provide direction for me
towards a
book worth living in that is one in which I am both author and
protagonist
and most of the characters in the mist.
The white
letters on the black background appear on the back of this
book. At the top right hand corner of the back
cover is the word
LITERATURE. And I smile and say to my little self well
it=92s about time
you journey
into this Type of Book to see where it will take you - you
dork! =20
I read
further and am zapped by a lightning bolt of synchronicity
recognizing
the white numerals signify the year in which I was born. It
is as if
the complete and unabridged text was corrected and entirely
reset just
for me. At least that will be the way it
is for a period of
time as my
mind wanders through this book checking in with my guides and
bodyguards
along the way.
I am
sitting on my sofa as I read these white words and it is brown and
green and
belonged to my step-Grandmother Mary Vineyard who died fairly
recently. I visited her and her son Don - my stepfather
and conservator
- at the
nursing home shortly before her death and we both watched and
felt her
pain and I watched Don=92s pain the tough Marine facing the
passing of
his Mother and it was such a touching and sorrowful event.=20
Entire
books could be written about gentle Mary Vineyard and her sons
but that is
not the direction that my words will go today.
Rather, I
will sit on
her sofa as I examine this book corrected and reset in the
year of my
birth into this world.
I read
further and see that the original American edition, which is all
I could
possibly comprehend, was published at the time that my parents
were
infants and that there is a foreward by the author and a foreward
containing
the court decision concerning the censorship of this good
book in my
hands the opinion of a Judge John M. Woosley.
My heart
leaps for joy. I will be able to meet
the author before
delving
into this new ground of literature but I will be able to ground
the entire
reading in an area of my expertise as I spent an entire year
involved in
critical study and reearch of American first amendment law.=20
It will be
interesting to ponder Judge Woosley=92s words in light of the
notions of
critical theory and postmodern criticism which I have studied
in
application to the good book I am about to travel through. It will
provide an
anchor to this journey of a time when my mind was not only
fine but
sharp as a tack when I spent hours examining and analyzing and
synthesizing
the words of Supreme Court justices in an attempt to create
new visions
of thought relating to subject matters loosely thrown
together
under the veil of freedom of expression.
A
numerological code is explained which may be beyond me, but it appears
that this
edition which allows the pages of the old to appear in the
pages of
the new and this makes me think of the relativity of time but
not so much
that my mind spins off in a tornado.
This is the
first time it is in paperback.
Perfect. I much prefer
paperbacks
especially used ones because you can feel the past in them
much
better. They read more like a well worn
pair of tattered Levis
than a
Tuxedo and I am much more at home in the tattered blue jeans.
One other
thing appears in white on the back cover.
a numerical code.=20
394-70380-4. I remember and laugh at myself times in the
past when I
would
search for meaning in the numerical code of the book rather than
open the
book and read it. Perhaps just a
different form of perception
a different
methodology of reading. Probably not
though!
These are
the white letters on the cover and they are indeed
meaningful. The remainder of the cover provides
incredibly enticing
emblems
including three flowers (which I will proclaim are sunflowers)
two purple
and one red with faces on the inside where the sunflower
seeds grow
and I laugh at the time in Winston-Salem North Carolina where
a appalachian
trail hiker named Easy Rider decided that I was Johnny
Sunflower
Seed. I wonder what he=92s doing now?
The book
has a tattered front cover. Just like my
favorite jeans. It
is an
antique. I will cherish this book like
one is I live in it for
some time
to come. I peak inside the back
cover. It appears that a
previous
owner had difficulty with getting a pen to produce ink and
swirled and
swirled around until the ink came along in a jagged little
line in the
middle of the swirls. Lightning bolt
among the swirling
waters. I declare that this page is art.
What a
wonderful cover. What a good book. I will definitely move into
this book
soon. But for now I will slow my pace a
bit more even to the
crawl of a
turtle along the side of a country road lost looking for its
way back
home but perfectly content in its journeying.
No homesickness
in the
turtle. No fear because of the
biological gift of a suit of
armour. And I feel my own protections secret shields
that envelope me
that I must
address and so I set the book beside me on old Mary
Vineyard=92s
sofa and move my mind to sweet things in the present and the
future.
The sweet
things border on the edges of Henry Miller and Anais Nin but
hopefully
i'll not be too distracted by the sweet wonders to prevent me
from
trudging through this June 16 adventure finding my way back from
the
universal to the particular and from there ... from there ... ah
shit, i
ain't gonna try and look that far ahead.
shalom,
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:03:11 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a
message dated 97-07-16 05:37:38 EDT, you write:
<< .
>Kaufmann) writes:
>
><< Hello, >>
Lusha. How
did Bob feel about being a beat? I put him up there at Corso
status,
though willing to be on the front lines more. Took unecessay
beat-ings
from the cops. I knew him most in his
silent days, so we spent
most of the
time on the Muni just looking out the windows.
Charles
Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:07:53 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell
<CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions
of Cody
In a
message dated 97-07-16 06:15:56 EDT, you write:
<<
Jack was no sexual threat to Neal.
> >>
I think
James is correct on this. There might be spats, yes. And I think Neal
wd have
felt a little betrayed in prison where his mind had time to play on
him, but
money would be the larger concern in the long run.
Anyway
that's how I'd see it. Maybe ask Carolyn?
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:53:36 -0700
Reply-To: "Shannon L. Stephens"
<shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shannon L. Stephens"
<shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments: To:
"Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith"
<psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.PTX.3.91.970715230124.24116B-100000@odin.cc.pdx.edu>
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On Tue, 15
Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
> On
Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> >
In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> >
> >
<< Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
>
> texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
>
> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
>
> time restraint has made it
difficult to read all of the poems and novels
>
> to find mention of her. >>
> >
> >
Oh fer Chrissake!
> >
C. Plymell
>
> dear
plymell:
> >
> what
the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i
was
> there
and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
>
response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a
fair
> enough
question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
>
questings.
>
> if you
are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
>
constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
> snotty
repost from deep left field!!!!
>
> steve
>
> (who
is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
>
mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
>
message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
> they
will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
>
about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
> work
for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
> for
views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> snotty
snit.)
>
> s.s.
>
Lusha...
All I know
is that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right
time, in
the right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:
any
concerns you have about this list and the responses to your question
is
this...Persist and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to
be
sheepish...Get in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his
students to
feel safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,
your
questions will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.
I've lurked
this list for a long time. There is personality and insight
galore. I
think people get a little label weary... at least I do.
Creating a
beat or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my
stomach to
do a turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you
will have
to facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you
so long and
I guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever
cultivate
is the persistance of your own mind.
-Shannon
(in Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:10:18 -0400
Reply-To: sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle
<sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
Comments:
To: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970716093756.12636V-100000@baskerville.CS.Arizona.EDU>
MIME-version:
1.0
Content-type:
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I think
what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
ALTHOUGH A
GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
MATTER! Calm down, people! *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
On Wed, 16
Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:
> On
Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> >
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> >
> >
> In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> >
>
> >
> << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in
Beat
> >
> texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats
and we are doing a
> >
> presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately the
> >
> time restraint has made it
difficult to read all of the poems and novels
> >
> to find mention of her. >>
> >
>
> >
> Oh fer Chrissake!
> >
> C. Plymell
> >
> >
dear plymell:
> >
>
> > what
the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i
was
> >
there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
> >
response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a
fair
> >
enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions and
> >
questings.
> >
> >
if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
> >
constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
> >
snotty repost from deep left field!!!!
> >
> >
steve
> >
> >
(who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
> >
mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
> >
message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
> >
they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
> >
about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
> >
work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
> >
for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> >
snotty snit.)
> >
> >
s.s.
> >
>
>
Lusha...
>
> All I
know is that if I hear Billy singing April in Paris at the right
> time, in the right place, I can be moved to a tear or two. My advice re:
> any concerns you have about this list and the responses to your question
> is this...Persist and elaborate! Engage in the conversation...no need to
> be sheepish...Get in here and pitch. It's cool that Steve wants his
> students to feel safe but safety is highly over rated and at some point,
> your questions will have to be powerful enough to override your fears.
> I've lurked this list for a long time. There is personality and insight
> galore. I think people get a little label weary... at least I do.
> Creating a beat or a buick for that matter, out of thin air can cause my
> stomach to do a turn. The point Lusha is that you have the question...you
> will have to facilitate getting your answers. Steve will only be with you
> so long and I guaren-damn-tee that the best research skill you will ever
> cultivate is the persistance of your own mind.
>
> -Shannon (in Tucson where it really is too damn hot!)
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:17:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<<general musings this morning>>
you write:
> Ok so I can't write words anymore. I'll go to China.
and will you knock your sconce against the wall there? that great wall.
the wall all runners dream about?
and let me add: in rainbows. Chopped so much wood last night, the past
few nights, that I should be kept warm this summer. In deed. If I
didn't burn and boil all the water out of my house. late at night.
"Don't smoke in bed" they say. and it's true. this body is cinder for
thought and I fear the flame.
email would have been a send for the beats, I imagine. Would they have
felt the need to always travel the roads? Was watching this Marilyn
Monroe, Clark Gable movie last night on teaV. no sound, just the black
and white images on my 21 inch screen. The camera is looking. always
looking. at Marilyn. at Gable looking at Marilyn. bodies in motion.
"[...] from an historical conjuncture, from the mouth of another,
wherein the spirt without knowledge is dumb; but if the spirit opens to
him the signature, then he understands the speech of another; and
further, he understands how the spirit has manifested and revealed
itself (out of the essence through the principal) in the sound of the
voice." == (Boehme, _The signature of all things_)
-=-=-
there's a book by Thomas Calvino I've only heard about. deals with the
historical city of Venice, Italy. The seven or so chapters give
different views of the same city. Written from different perspectives.
The multifaceted nature of things, I guess is the point.
but what would the signature of God be? what lies behind the veil?
what is Kerouac after with his recordings of Neal. From Diane's
excellent elucidations, I wonder. [[need to look at Ginsberg's photos
more.
tied up in nots, due process
"the map is not the territory" babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:23:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a message dated 97-07-16 06:24:30 EDT, you write:
<< The last time I saw Lady Day she was standing in front of the
City Lights bookstore in S.F., tying up her arm for a hot
shot of horse from a syringe dangling from her
purse. Billy had stood up the crowd at the Hungry I that
night, but she didn't seem to give a shit. She had a date
to meet Lenny Bruce in front of City Lights. So who shows
up? Thats right, Ladies and Gentleman: Albert Goldman!
Strange Fruit, don't you think?
>>
That's a great story. He always knew when. Her song about Monday was pulled
from radio broadcasts because it was to have been causing too many suicides.
i can't remember the title. i don't think it was Strang Fruit.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:51:05 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: carolyn...
i read off the road not too long ago...what a book! very moving! and in
the liner notes i saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat." So I went
on a mad search through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't
seem to be. but there apparently was a movie made based on the book...
anyway, so i got the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for
me, found out the full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and Neal"
(interesting, Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....) It'll probably take a
couple of months for me to get this book in my hands, though. From what I
understand, this is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but
written before Off the Road. So if she'd already written one, why'd she
write another account of the story? anyone know? anyone here read this
book? I know, "read the book yourself & you'll figure it out yourself..."
but it's gonna be a few months before I get the book (and if it's from 1976
& can't be found in the library anymore I highly doubt the neighborhood
bookstore will have it). I just want other people's opinions on the work,
if anyone has any....kind of wanting to go into the movie theatre with a
vague notion about the movie on the screen...
Diane.
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 14:13:16 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: carolyn...
Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199707161951.PAA07783@kanga.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
diane
from what i understand _heartbeat_ is simply an earlier draft of _off the
road_. it was turned into a movie (starring nick nolte as neal, believe it
or not...) and she then built & improved upon the book, beefing it up and
renaming it _off the road_. i dont know if you really HAVE to seek it out
if you've read _off the road_. can anyone else shine light on this?
yrs
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:51:13 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Heart Beat
Heart Beat was a greatly abridged or excerpted version of Carolyn's
later biography. If memory serves me well she wasn't very pleased with
it. It may have had something to do with the production of the movie but
I couldn't be sure of that without doing a little research. If you've
read Off the Road, I think it would be a waste of time to read "Heart
Beat" except as historical curiosity or to study the text in relation to
the final version which I agree is a model work of its kind.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:10:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
In a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
<< at Gable looking at Marilyn >>
Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
the roping scenes.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:31:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Moccasins
just picked up "Last of the Moccasins" at Borders Books...looking forward to
this with great relish!!
on the way to the bookstore, i passed Warho's red painting of James Dean in a
gallery window. anyone know the painting, and if so what the Chinese
characters mean?
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:34:20 -0500
Reply-To: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: t-shirts
Content-Type: text
Jeffrey,
I received my t-shirts yesterday, a day after Michael Nally's e-mail post
to the beat-l, and I agree with him.
I have had business dealings with you since the time of your very first
catalog, so I am more familiar than most people with the quality and
integrity of your enterprise. The printing on the shirt is certainly less
than ideal, but I cannot in all conscience allow you to absorb the costs
for my order.
I appreciate the honesty and rare business morality in offering the shirts
for free and in assuming the burden yourself.
One of the striking qualities of the beat-l group is its sense of community
(with a few glaring exceptions) and mutual support, reminiscent for me of
the late '60s. Your original role in this project was non-profit; from my
perspective, I cannot contribute to the venture's turning into a loss for
you.
Therefore, I am returning your refund check to you. Thanks though for the
gesture.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
7/16/97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:52:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Info on Billie Holiday
In a message dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:
<< I think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
MATTER! Calm down, people! *grin*
Sara Feustle
sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> > >
> > > << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> > > texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing
a
> > > presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately
the
> > > time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and
novels
> > > to find mention of her. >>
> > >
> > > Oh fer Chrissake!
> > > C. Plymell
> >
> > dear plymell:
> > >
> > what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
> > there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
> > response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
> > enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions
and
> > questings.
> >
> > if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
> > constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
> > snotty repost from deep left field!!!!
> >
> > steve
> >
> > (who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
> > mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
> > message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
> > they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
> > about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
> > work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
> > for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> > snotty snit.)
> >
> > s.s.
> >
>
> Lusha... >>
Thanks Sahra, Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob
Kaufman wd have known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the
dastardly dated language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items
were on the list of what first went through my head.
But I hope I'm a Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and
hopfully provided some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I
would work the beat association into the thesis from the beat's point of
view, rather than to lump everything together for future readers. Seems to
be enough of that. Though I really don't know of many physical time-space
connections(no pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I
take from anthor list member's story. There were very few heavy users among
the beats, and any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or
anectodal at best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be
wrong, though. This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh
well.
Charley Falling Off Horse (my tribal name)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:06:45 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970716050158.1aeff820@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> >
> Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
> and had been lovers, at least at times. isn't it possible
> homosexuality played a role in their rift?
>
> Mike Rice
> mrice@centuryinter.net
Cassady and *Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to
Cassady (hell he wrote two books about him!) But he was hetero in the
extreme from what I've read.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:31:14 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970716110753_-1158306363@emout17.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
It is also worth pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately
interefered with Jack's relationships with his beat friends. She
routinely opened and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and
apparently took to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she
thought was trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal
for similar reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from
reading the letters)
It is sad but Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less
completely and filter much of what he knew of his old friends. She
probably would have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to
not communicate with them.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 15:28:25 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
the last words of Charles Plymell's autobiography (from the net):
"Tomorrow I have to go to the unemployment office."
very nice CP. very nice. Filled in a lot of the blanks and gave a nice
perspective. Am battling my own sycophant tendancies, by writing this.
Just wanted to publically say, "thanx" for writing all that down. all
that down.
the words of Jello Biafra, whom I curse and praise, come to mind:
"if you love your fun, die for it!" (from the song _Lard_)
oh, I never wanna be a poet, Douglas
"the map is not the territory" babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:32:45 -0400
Reply-To: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paterson Falls and Bohemian Rises
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Well, I'd have to say I agree and disagree. A haiku is sort of like a
spontaneous orgasm, in that it is quick, unprompted, out of nowhere. You
know, when you're having a really good dream... *ahem* *grin*
> Something such as Howl is like excellent sex, the whole show, naked,
mirrors on the ceiling, the passion building and building to the poit of
release.
> Then there's works such as Mexico City Blues.... an all-night lovemaking
session involving multiple orgasms.........
> Yours in depravity,
> Sara
>
>
>
>At 02:29 PM 7/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Pete wrote:
>>> The second thing spun off from the first and doesn't pertain to posts.
>>> It's about poetry in general and about what I never liked about the
>>> Beats in general. If people can come here and dis my gods, well dammit
>>> I'm gonna give it back. I know there aren't any absolutes, but do others
>>> know that?
>>
>>I may be one of those who dissed your gods (Ezra?) and I don't
>>mind you giving it back. This is a pretty good paragraph:
>>
>>> > >I realize this goes against the values of some Beat poets and their
>>> > >sycophants. Personally, I never went for the masturbatory approach to
>>> > >writing. Seems to mistake the product with the process, IMO. Sex isn't
>>> > >about cumming, it's about fucking; and writing isn't an explosion of
>>> > >words in a dionysian frenzy, it's all the thoughts around arranging
>>> > >those words, and living those ideas, making the song, singing it. Not
>>> > >the record, but the song. And even if masturbation is a good metaphor,
>>> > >then I say the poem is not the cum but the rubbing.
>>
>>And I don't feel compelled to either agree or disagree. You made
>>your point and I hear you. I'd say the flip side is this: spontaneous
>>writing is an attempt to capture the joy of writing inside the piece
>>itself. And joy is what is too often missing in the snootier,
>>stricter, more academic writing of our times. Beat writing may
>>be cheap sex, but at least they got the joint jumpin' ... more
>>than I can say for Ezra ...
>>
>>And I hope we can all feel free to dis each other's gods as much
>>as we want -- let's just not start dissing each other. It's a
>>big difference.
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------
>> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>>
>> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
>> (the beat literature web site)
>>
>> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/
>> (my fantasy folk-rock album)
>>
>> ###################################
>>
>> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"
>> -- Bob Dylan
>>-----------------------------------------------------
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:28:21 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Johnson or SHIT ?? Charley is ...............
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you R a Johnson ! ! !
The Committee
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-07-16 13:38:05 EDT, you write:
>
> << I think what Pamela is referring to is the fact that BILLIE HOLIDAY,
> ALTHOUGH A GREAT SINGER, IS NOT A POET/AUTHOR, OR A "BEAT" FOR THAT
> MATTER! Calm down, people! *grin*
>
> Sara Feustle
> sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
>
> On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Shannon L. Stephens wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 15 Jul 1997, Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> > >
> > > > In a message dated 97-07-15 20:36:00 EDT, you write:
> > > >
> > > > << Hello, I had a question concerning Billie Holiday mentioned in Beat
> > > > texts. I am taking summer course on the Beat greats and we are doing
> a
> > > > presentation on Women beats. I choose Billie Holiday, unfortunately
> the
> > > > time restraint has made it difficult to read all of the poems and
> novels
> > > > to find mention of her. >>
> > > >
> > > > Oh fer Chrissake!
> > > > C. Plymell
> > >
> > > dear plymell:
> > > >
> > > what the hell does "oh fer chrissake" mean? up on yer highhorse "i was
> > > there and how dare some mere student ask such a question"? yer goofy
> > > response brings up a "oh for chrissake" from me, too. lusha asks a fair
> > > enough question. this list is, among other things, for such questions
> and
> > > questings.
> > >
> > > if you are not --any of you--interested in responding in some
> > > constructive way to her question, just ignore it--don't resort to a
> > > snotty repost from deep left field!!!!
> > >
> > > steve
> > >
> > > (who is, in all forthrightness, lusha's professor in the course she
> > > mentions---and i feel guilty about having told her "hey, yes, send a
> > > message to the beat-l list--they are kind and helpful for the most part;
> > > they will talk with you and care about some of the same things you care
> > > about"; i, for one, do not see her question as asking someone to do her
> > > work for her; she has been interested enough to go out here on the list
> > > for views and news and knowledge; don't flame her; don't be shits in a
> > > snotty snit.)
> > >
> > > s.s.
> > >
> >
> > Lusha... >>
> Thanks Sahra, Actually, I was trying to challange Lusha some. I think Bob
> Kaufman wd have known that. If not forgive me. It was I who wrote the
> dastardly dated language, not Pam. She has too much class. And your items
> were on the list of what first went through my head.
> But I hope I'm a Johnson, not a shit, Anyway, I have posted Lusha, and
> hopfully provided some constructive criticism, which is hard for me to do! I
> would work the beat association into the thesis from the beat's point of
> view, rather than to lump everything together for future readers. Seems to
> be enough of that. Though I really don't know of many physical time-space
> connections(no pun) If there was one, I assume it was through Lenny Bruce, I
> take from anthor list member's story. There were very few heavy users among
> the beats, and any other connection would be hypothetical/abstract or
> anectodal at best. i don't think they travelled in the same circles. i may be
> wrong, though. This was turning into a brush fire, and now it's dwindling. oh
> well.
> Charley Falling Off Horse (my tribal name)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:43:13 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: jk's character portrayl
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the recent thread of neal not liking the way that jack described him
in on the road, made me think that how did the other m.c. in jack's
books like the way they were described? in particular i would like to
know what gary synder thought of japhy ryder and the dharma bums.
thanx~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:56:57 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
In-Reply-To: <33CD6BA1.995ECD76@scsn.net>
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Who is this source? someone who knew Jack? I think if Jack had had any
major gay affairs, he'd have writtena bout them because he wrote about
almost every major experience he had in his life.
Ginsberg has been quoted has saying that Jack was not gay or bi, but that
when they were young and had just met, they *experimented* a little with
oral sex. I dont think this makes Jack gay or bi, guess it depends on
interpretation.
Although if Jack *was* privately gay or bi, it might explain his outright
homophobia concerning Allen...whom he constantly ragged upon about his
homosexuality.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:51:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
In a message dated 97-07-16 19:07:06 EDT, you write:
<< Neal ever dressed formally
enough to actually don spats.
>>
I haven't seen the post yet. The dandiest I saw Neal was when he and Peter
Angel came to my collage show at the Batman gallery on Filmore, SF. They had
been to the Goldwater ' 64 convention at the cow palace and were wearing
straw hat jackets and canes. Looked and acted like yankee doodle dandies.
Neal had no wardrobe, belongings in a cardbord box. Tapes of his past lives
from his meduim in Palo Alto, belts, a change of levis, white T-shirt, jocky
shorts, socks, penny loafers and an old sports coat. I tink this simplicity
was because he didn't want to waste time deciding what to wear. I was just
the opposite, leading him to say I had a problem with time since i would have
to fuss over what to wear. Oh yeah, his railroad pocket watch and a grocery
back of weed, a shoe box for cleaning the weed and a pocket full of pills.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:15:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with
having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read
literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't
understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's relative published him-- even
without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a few other
scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime
at an Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce ruined American literature. The
meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text for a
decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,
politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,
though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a
dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:23 -0400
Reply-To: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tracy J Neumann <tjneuman@UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com
In-Reply-To: <970716002007_410349889@emout02.mail.aol.com>
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Point taken...thanks.
Tracy
On Wed, 16 Jul 1997 CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 97-07-15 16:54:46 EDT, you write:
>
> << and perhaps Kerouac's sexual involvement with
> carolyn cassady) than a petty disagreement over money?
>
> Tracy >>
> I'd guess that money was more important to N than J' sex with his wife,
> Unless, of course he was humping her whlie N was in prison.
> C Plymell
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:04:56 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: President's Sychophant Committe on NEA Funding
As they say down in Arkansaw..
"makes my ass wanna dip snuff"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:15:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Moccasins and Joyce
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had
> with
> having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to
> read
> literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I
> can't
> understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's relative published him--
> even
> without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a
> few other
> scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd
> onetime
> at an Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce ruined American literature.
> The
> meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text
> for a
> decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal
> religion,
> politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic
> genius,
> though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that
> at a
> dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each
> other.
> CP
Charles:
I just went down to the local library and checked out Ulysess. I own,
but never really read Portrait of an Artist. Good question?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:17:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Robert Hass
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While in the library, I was looking through the Poetry section and saw
some books by Robert Hass. A good friend of mine who built my house is
named Robert Hass. So, I checked out Praise and Sun Under Wood. I
might even read them. Does anyone care to make a comment about Hass'
work either on line or back channel?
Thanks,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 22:30:19 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Moccasins & Ulysses
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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had with
> having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to read
> literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science I can't
> understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's relative published him-- even
> without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a few other
> scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd onetime
> at an Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce ruined American literature. The
> meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official" text for a
> decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal religion,
> politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic genius,
> though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that at a
> dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
> CP
Imagine it was a pretty loud conversation between those two silent men.
I am begining Joyce's Ulysses. July 16 seemed like a good day to begin
a book about June 16.
I sat on the crapper and read along until something about a jesuit
injection turned my head sideways, twisted me upside down, and burroughs
shook the shit out of me.
After i recovered i shaved and showered and headed to the filling
station where i started again and made it all the way to the old Woman's
entrance where i had a vision of Gaia that swallowed me whole.
Tomorrow is another day
and so i will once again brave the first chapter skimming up to the
entrance of the old Woman and moving forward like a blind mule on a
hillbilly holler.
Luckily i have a wonderful tour guide for the journey in Diane Carter
and many bodyguards including Doug and Sherri and it sounds as if Bentz
is leaning towards this book as well.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:45:14 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Thomas Wolfe and Kerouac and VOC
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A week or so ago, I pointed out in the food scene where Kerouac
acknowledeged that his work was derivative of Thomas Wolfe by throwing
Of Time and the River into the middle of the food sequences. I know
that one of Wolfe's most famous pieces is the description of
Thanksgiving dinner in his Mother's boarding house. I think it is in
Look Homeward Angel thought.
I kinda thought that this tacit acknowledgement of Wolfe would have
drawn some comments. But it did not. So, I went down to the library
(as you all know from the last two posts) and checked out Of Time and
the River. I did find one passage that struck me as being a point of
reference:
>From Page 357 of Charles Scribner's Sons, 1935 (BTW, this version is 912
pages long)
"What would you like to eat?" she now says meditatively. "How about a
nice thick steak," she said juicily, as she winked at him. "I've got
the whole half of a fried chicken left over from last night, that you
can have if you come over!--Now it's up to you!" she cried out again in
that almost hard challenging tone, as if he had shown signs of
unwillingness or refusal. "I'm not going to urge you, but you're
welcome to it if you want to come.--How about a big dish of string
beans--some mashed potatoes--some steamed corn, and asparagus! How'd
you like some big wonderful sliced tomatoes with mayonnaise?--I've got a
big peach and apple cobbler in the oven--do you think that'd go good
smoking hot with a piece of butter and a hunk of American cheese?" she
said, winking at him and smacking her lips comically. "Would that hit
the spot? Hey?" she said, prodding him in the ribs with her big stiff
fingers and then saying in a hoarse, burlesque, and nasal tone, in
extravagant imitation of a girl they knew who had gone to New York, and
had come back talking with the knowing, cock-sure nasal toneof the New
Yorker.
"Ah fine boys!" Helen said in this burlesque tone. "Fine! Just like
they give you in New York!" she said. Then turning away indifferently,
she went down the steps , and across the walk towards her husband's car,
calling back in an almost hard and agressive tone:
"Well you can do exactly as you like! No one is going to urge you to
come if you don't want to!"
It seems to me that the passage in VoC on page 10 echos this and the
theme of Jack and Thomas of being manipulated.
Anyway, I know there is more of Of Time and the River in VoC, and I
think it is in large part the inspiration of VoC. But, I may be alone
here, as I may have been one of the few willing to read all 912 pages of
Of Time and the River.
Does anyone else have a comment on this connection?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:59:36 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
In-Reply-To: <970716221304_1048044493@emout16.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 7:15 PM -0700 7/16/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> I read or heard one time that at a
> dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each other.
don't know Beckett that well. but maybe they met later, after the dinner,
for a little late night swimmin? They took off all their clothes, jumped
in the river and let the sound of distant heart beats . . . reach
their eyeballs.
read Neal Cassidy's "letter to Jack Kerouac, September 10, 1950" tonight.
very good. lots of eyeballs. other writers that mess with da balls:
patti smith and tom verlaine (in _the night_). Artaud? Bruneul. Dali.
oh, lots of writers. Man Ray and his tick tock of metric destruction (the
cutout eye of his lover).
still thinking about the relationship of seeing to hearing. Maybe people
like Joyce and Beckett realize that small talk is so useless. Maybe a few
chosen glances, or silent approvals was enough for them to <<speak with one
another??
> CP = central pacific
dextrous pervert
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let the man come thru let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:22:48 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: carolyn...
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Carolyn C isn't crazy about Heart Beat and even less about the movie
(which is awful). Heart Beat was basically the more sensational parts
culled out of what she was doing in "Off the Road." I was at a
screening of the movie in Eugene that Kesey and Babbs walked out of
after about five minutes. Sissy Spacek's heart was in the right place,
and Nolte might have made a decent Neal, but it didn't happen.
James Stauffer
Diane M. Homza wrote:
>
> i read off the road not too long ago...what a book! very moving! and in
> the liner notes i saw "also by Carolyn Cassady....Heart Beat." So I went
> on a mad search through my local libraries trying to locate it....doesn't
> seem to be. but there apparently was a movie made based on the book...
>
> anyway, so i got the friendly librarian to inter-library loan the book for
> me, found out the full title is "Heart Beat: My life with Jack and Neal"
> (interesting, Jack & Neal, not Neal & Jack.....) It'll probably take a
> couple of months for me to get this book in my hands, though. From what I
> understand, this is another memoir of Carolyn & her two thugs....but
> written before Off the Road. So if she'd already written one, why'd she
> write another account of the story? anyone know?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:27:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
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Charles,
Thanks for the memories. "Misfits" is such a great movie. Parts of it
were filmed on my ex-wife's uncles ranch. Last movie for Gable,
Marilyn, and Monty Clift. Great Arthur Miller screenplay and you can do
worse than John Huston as a director. Some wonderful magnatism there.
Can't imagine modern Hollywood doing a movie with such wonderfully
broken down stars, Clift falling apart in front of your eyes, Marilyn
heavy and drugged, but radiant. If the young un's want to get a feel
for Neal and Jack's world that is not a bad place to start.
James Stauffer
Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
>
> << at Gable looking at Marilyn >>
> Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
> freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
> portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
> that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
> the roping scenes.
> CP
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:04:23 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Moccasins
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> >
> > Are you going to read Joyce too? Sounds like the frustration I had
> >with
> > having to read him. I don't think I ever finished. it's difficult to
> > read
> > literary genius. That's why I read other kinds of stuff like science
> >I
> > can't
> > understand. Well anyway , I'm glad my wife's relative published
> >him--
> > even
> > without the NEA or public funds. Imagine that! 'Course Pound and a
> >few
> >other
> > scraped up a collection . Tell that to the Bohemians! (My ass). I sd
> > onetime
> > at an Eng, Dept staff meeting that Joyce ruined American literature.
> > The
> > meeting had become too serious anyway. Ulysses was the "official"
> >text
> > for a
> > decade or two. I like portrait, but for someone who has no formal
> > religion,
> > politics, etc, sometimes the text didn't mean too much. He had myopic
> > genius,
> > though for those who want to follow it. I read or heard one time that
> > at a
> > dinner when Joyce and Beckett met, they never said a word to each
> > other.
> > CP
> In Richard Ellman's biography of Joyce, he writes, "Joyce sometimes went
out with Samuel Beckett, of whom he wrote to his son, 'I think he has
talent,' a compliment in which he rarely indulged...He made clear to
Beckett his dislike of literary talk. Once when they had listened
silently to a group of intellectuals at a party, he commented, 'If only
they'd talk about turnips!'"
All of my life I have been compelled to study James Joyce, I can't
leave Ulysses or Finnegans Wake alone, might be some sort of
personality flaw on my part, definitely some kind of intellectual
addiction; anyway I don't want to turn this into a beat list discussing
Joyce, so for anyone who wants to read Ulysses, with the help of me as a
guide and the comradeship of some fellow beat-list members, backchannel
me. We are on Chapter one this week and moving forward at a snail's
pace. Everyone still has to finish VOC as well.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 01:13:08 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
******************************************************************************
********************
could some one please help me out here? i am very curious to figure out the
whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...
it is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
relationship.
but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have homosexual
relations with jack?
if not, how much did jack know about neal and allen?
anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:15:58 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Jenn Fedor wrote:
>
> ******************************************************************************
> ********************
> could some one please help me out here? i am very curious to figure out the
> whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...
>
> it is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
> relationship.
>
> but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have homosexual
> relations with jack?
> if not, how much did jack know about neal and allen?
> anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
>
> satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,
>
> jenn
To all on this thread,
i'm not certain what it is precisely, but something about this thread
makes my spine tingle a bit.
i've never been much of one for soap operatic visions and this current
string of who fucked who(m?) in whose bathroom with who watching seems
............... at least none of my fucking business.
perhaps it is the puritanical notions still implanted in those from the
land where Ike still rules our country and we pledge to the flag in the
morning on our way to the filling station - but at least out here on the
prairie such matters of intimacy seem something that be left sleeping
like the dogs.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:21:36 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: book spree
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Went on a net shopping spree a few weeks ago and the books are finally
starting to arrive -- got a bunch of choice stuff (more than i can afford,
for sure) and i'm totally thrilled:
_The Joyous Cosmology_, Alan Watts. Been looking for this book for _years_,
and I find 2 book dealers with good copies under $10! I bought both. Worth
it for the psychedelic b/w photos inside, but I suspect that hearing Watts
talk about his trips is going to be interesting too.
_Painting & Guns_ by William S. Burroughs; _Auto Biography_ by Robert
Creely. 2 nice Hanuman books, not bad for $1.99 each even if the covers are
worn. Read WSB's (actually I bought these in May, but still) and it's full
of lotsa sharp writing.
_Natural Enemies: Youth and the Clash of Generations_. A nice hardbound
book of short pieces on that counter-culture thing by all our favorites,
including Allen & Louis Ginsberg, Lionel Trilling, Norman Podhoretz, Henry
Miller, McLuhan, Fuller, Eisenhower & Kennedy, etc.
_Ideas and Integrities_, _Earth Inc._, Buckminster Fuller. The
to-be-expected high-output comprehensive essays.
_First Blues: Rags Ballads & Harmonium Songs 1971-74_, Ginsberg.
Autographed. Wow, I've been looking for a copy of this sucker since '93 and
didn't expect to get a signed one, but I did...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:32:41 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: PS...
John:
My Burroughs visit was not too private to share, I just haven't gotten around
to completely recounting it, and all the circumstances that led up to it.
The friend with whom I traveled to Lawrence and visited WSB has been
collaborating with me on a story of this milestone adventure, but it's
progressing very slowly in fits and starts, as we talk to and fax each other
to and from Ann Arbor, MI where I live and Philadelphia. I have related some
of the events in a sporadic, fragmentary way through some posts on the list,
you may have run into some of them. The lengthiest have been to Maya Gorton,
who has recently unsubscribed, and were sent only to her rather than to the
list as a whole. Anyway, your message is another toggle to me to get going
and fully recount this experience for posterity. My participation in this
List is turning out to be a great writing exercise for me, after a lifetime
of only occasional and painfully produced works, there has been a steady flow
since I signed on a few months ago, easily and without the self-consciousness
of "writing" where I feel the Giants looking over my shoulder as I stare at
the blank page/screen. After working out this way, I'm hoping that my skills
and stamina will reach a point where I can tackle such projects as the WSB
story. My goal is to write installments and send them regularly to the whole
list until the story is told. Parallel with that and as material from which
to extract will be the continued collaborative effort, which may spill over
from a factual, straightforward approach and qualify as a Beat/Gonzo piece in
its own right. Just writing at length about what I''m GOING to do and not
quite getting around to it, expending the energy I should be using to
accomplish it on describing its difficulty, is I think a time-honored method
and part of the process itself.
As for THE BLACK RIDER, I attended its premiere in the spring of 1990 in
Hamburg, Germany. The friend who accompanied me to the WSB visit and his
wife were living there at the time, and this episode was part of a fairly
long trip through various parts of Europe (yet another potential story).
There were rumors of an appearance by WSB, but we never spotted him. From
what I recall, the production was partly in English and partly in German.
Despite my hosts' attempts to translate for me, I could not completely
understand what was going on, and so my impression of it is compromised by
the distance in time and the partial language barrier. I remember thinking
that it was a heavy-handed Teutonic fable, complete with hunters in the
forest, maidens, etc., put through a post-modern avant-garde wringer by
Burroughs, Waits and Wilson. The sets and costumes were remeniscent of the
German Expressionist style. Burroughs' voice came as a recording from
offstage, especially in the first act. The statement that still resonates
the most with me is when he says "the first shot is always free" in his
not-quite-imitatable world-weary drawl. I enjoyed and got a laugh out of
WSB's application of one of his maxims, distilled from junkys' street life,
to actual bullets and guns, an ominous foreshadowing of the Mephistopholian
bargain that the protagonist makes leading to his and others' doom. WSB's
fetish for and historic misadventures with guns as much as syringes further
deepened the resonance of this statement. Although his direct participation
in the production was very brief and occasional, his spirit seemed to be an
ingredient within and behind the scenes of the whole production. So, with
the limitations I've cited above, my opinion is that it was interesting (how
could it not be with the involvement of these artists, especially WSB?), but
not particularly profound or riveting. Even just a touch of Burroughsian
schtick greatly spiced it up. I acquired the CD when it was released, and
enjoyed the "bones" piece sung/narrated by WSB. I've never been much of a
Tom Waits fan despite his being considered something of a neo-Beat figure, my
exposure to him is limited and I'm not motivated to increase it now. Do you
think it would be worth it?
At the beginning of our visit, when I was in a state of almost speechless
adrenal trauma, my friend mentioned that we had seen the premiere, as an
ice-breaker. WSB's response was: "I think Hamburg is the nicest city in
Germany, don't you agree?", without commenting on the production itself or
its importance, if any, to him. We both unanimously and enthusiastically
agreed with his assessment of Hamburg. There I go again, another fragment.
It must be very fun and interesting to teach a Beat course. Do you have any
other poems or other writings such as the one you posted that led to our
first corresponding? What are your favorite works, and what would you
suggest as the subject of an ongoing discussion, like the one going on
concerning Kerouac's VISIONS OF CODY? Again, I hope you're finding this List
worthwhile to be involved in, as I am.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:45:08 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Homosexuality
I wouldn't say that Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual. Seems to me
that they were both heterosexual guys who experimented occasionally with
homosexuality. For Cassady, this might have been a result of his
spending his adolescence in reform schools. Unlike Ginsberg, though,
Cassady and Kerouac were primarily drawn to women. I don't think I'd
refer to Cassady and Ginsberg as "lovers," either, though Ginsberg
certainly can be said to have loved Cassady in the sense that term
implies. I doubt, however, that Cassady ever felt that kind of love.
Basically, Cassady, I think, wanted to be Allen's friend. He saw Allen
as a mentor, looked up to him, and wanted to please him. If that meant
sex once in a while, that was okay, at least early on in their
friendship. All of this talk about whether someone is heterosexual or
homosexual doesn't mean very much in the end but it is interesting if
merely as gossip. Martin Duberman's play "Visions of Kerouac" makes a
plausible case for Kerouac being a repressed homosexual. The idea is
that Kerouac's repression of his homosexuality caused a lot of his pain.
It's not an idea I buy but I have to admit Duberman makes an
interesting case.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:04:37 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: cuputs
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Can we talk about cut-ups? I want to make sure that I understand the
technique.
You take a work, any work, that is written on paper. slice it down the
middle. reassemble the work so that the words and phrases are scrambled, and
retype. new meanings and hidden thoughts may emerge.
Is this the gist of the cut-up? I recall reading the story of Bill cutting a
book down the middle with an axe or similar instrument, reassembling and
there it was... but when you are re-typing the new work, can you insert
words and refine phrases, or must you simply transcribe what you see on the
paper? (I do know that what you see will be different every time, just like
tape transcriptions, but maybe this is another story.)
I want to know if there is a difference between scrambling all of the
_words_ in a text and scrambling all of its _characters_. I mean, I know
there is a _difference_ and each method will produce different words and a
different text (the first will usually contain the same words as the
original text with the exception of those words split by the cut), but are
both products of the "cut-up" technique, or does the cut-up require that
the same words generally be used (thus bringing all words used in the old
text along and into the new one, all the words and their
meanings/connotactions, as opposed to all the _characters_)? Or is one
simply going deeper than another? Discuss.
WHAT I AM GETTING AT: I have a computer program called "an" that has
potential literary value in pursuing further studies along this cut-up line.
"an" takes as its standard input any text -- pick a word, any word. The text
could be a book-length ASCII text file, or it could be a short word or
phrase. Then an takes this input and processes it, comparing every possible
permutation of characters with the system dictionary; every time a set of
valid words (ie words that appear in the system dictionary) is generated, it
outputs this to the standard output (screen or file), a line at a time. As
such, an is not just a simple anagram generator -- as its author originally
intended -- but a fast, accurate cybernetic cut-up machine. (I am also aware
of the excellent cutup program at <http://www.bigtable.com/cutup/>. This one
retains words, and even duplicates them to fill a page (or screen) -- yet
another method.)
The amount of memory required to generate anagrams is in exponential
relation to the length of the text, so using an to cut up texts of any
significant length must be done on a machine with more memory than mine has
(81MB RAM), but I suppose this is a temporal problem, as the relation to
computing power and its cost is also behaving exponentially according to
Moore's Law.
Should there be an interest, I will post results of my findings to the list.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:31:59 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
Dear Jenn:
Here's what I know from my studies of works by and about the Beats re:
"....sexual relations between Jack, Neal and Allen..." as you asked about in
your post:
Ginsberg was very infatuated with Neal, his "Adonis of Denver" as he
described him in HOWL. It was apparently a one-way street, Neal was
straight. But Neal's great regard for Ginsberg as a literary mentor/soul
mate, and also, perhaps, his hustler-exploitive instinct, led him to have sex
with Ginsberg. Their relations were sporadic and led to AG's frustration, he
implored NC to join him in an ongoing relationship, while NC was only
accomodating his friend without really being into it. Neal's marriage to
Carolyn only made matters more tense and frustrating, and in an infamous
episode recounted in her (highly recommended) memoir OFF THE ROAD, among
other sources, she discovered AG and her husband having sex together in their
bedroom, and promptly evicted AG. Immediately in the wake of this, AG
skulked back to San Francisco and met Peter Orlovsky, who became his steady
partner through AG's death. This helped to cool down AG's essentially
unrequited obsession for NC. A poignant and very sad description of one of
the last encounters between AG and NC is given by AG in one of his poems (I
can't recall the name of it and don't have access to my collection right now,
I'll look it up later and get back to you if I find it). A burned-out, soon
to be dead NC and AG are in bed together, and AG feels the cold, shaking NC.
I think that AG's obsession for NC, like a grain of sand that becomes a
pearl, was an inspiration to AG's creativity even as it caused him pain and
frustration. And as regards creative inspiration, AG helped NC as much as
anyone, including Kerouac, was able to, but NC's historic role in the Beat
saga will always be more as a subject and inspirer of others, especially AG &
JK, than as a creator in his own right.
As for JK, he was heterosexual like his alter ego NC, and the two of them
never had a sexual relationship as far as can be determined. But their
relationship went far beyond a typical friendship, what some might argue
beyond sex into a realm of eroticising and mytholigizing that exceeds what
many outright sexual relationships have stirred. AG managed to have sex
occasionally in their early days with JK (he seems to have had his way with
everyone), and again I think that JK's respect for AG's creative genius and
their affinity for each other on a soul-to-soul level carried the day. I
once read ( I can't remember where) an anecdote from near the end of JK's
life that also shows the whimper coda of a collaboration that had begun with
such a bang, as with AG and NC above. A drunken, passed-out JK awoke to find
AG and Peter Orlovsky blowing him. "What are you doing, I'm not queer?!" he
asked, startled. "We just want you to be happy, Jack", they said as they
looked up from what they were doing. Nothing could cheer up poor JK by then.
As to your question of how much JK knew about AG & NC, I recall from some of
the letters between JK & AG that JK was aware of it and tried to help AG sort
things out. AG as usual wore his heartache on his sleeve, and shared it
intensely with JK and others.
The tangled, complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat
figures is fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their
lives and works. Another important relationship was that between AG &
William S. Burroughs, especially WSB's failed attempt to "schlup" (completely
absorb and be absorbed by) AG in NYC in 1953. But that's another story, and
not related to what you directly asked. I hope that you find this
information helpful, and keep digging further into the Beats and their
collaborations, creative and otherwise.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:27:39 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Poem...Poetic Forum
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haven't written in a while...can't keep up w/ flood of email...sorry...
thought i'd share a piece i've been working on, looking for poetic
community beautiful San Francisco rememberances...can't seem to find the
poets where i live: deep south louisiana backwoods isolation...now that i
know there are great souls to talk to here (Charles, Pamela, Bill, etc.)
maybe i can find some sense of words words words loving...tell me what you
think:
Nineteen Ninety Six
And here's how it went:
Picking up cigarette rag,
blonde stranger and best friend at concerts
back to her room for night of drunk love - kissing laughing losing my
cherry ha ha ha -
we made love while i dreamt of changing the world and
you dreamt of your boyfriend
You and him at Yancey and Sergio's tripping crazy (me drunk),
talking about big brother government CIA and fixing the world through
machines...
Listening to you yell and scream and wail about sexism and
how we're men and can't understand you woman.
First I listen to you and your first girlfriend lover,
not turned on like I thought I'd be,
angry because I thought you didn't love me,
angry because you lied to me,
angry because I didn't understand you.
Then roles reversed, you listen about my first boyfriend lover,
crying because I didn't wanna tell you,
not hearing me say that I didn't like it,
not hearing me say that I was sorry I didn't tell you,
not hearing me say that this was the end of the ride.
Think maybe I'll be fine in Denton.
Stumbling drunk up dormitory stairs,
half bottle of tequila in me, sensitive poet type,
winking at red headed angel,
at IHOP 3AM wondering
"what's wrong with Josh," almost passing out over
half-smoked cigarettes coffee cholesterol.
Making love wine-induced to strangers later to be friends
in room inhabited by Buddha scripture scrolls and
prophecies by Allen
listening to eastern hymns of roommate I still don't know.
Handwriting read to me by modern-day Mexican saint
in hallways of paint & sweat & marijuana & alcohol
ticketed in park trespassing
1 down, lost to law
2 more down, lost to paranoia,
damn glad they didn't find no shit.
Sitting in police station 6AM coming down from cloud,
coming up with $300 to bail him out -
brother to my red-headed angel.
Dancing mad rhythms at first gay bar with brothers and
crazy girlfriend moving LSD vibrations
of cosmic soul thumping sexy house beats
wondering where sleep honest love tonite?
No class, Spanish not worth it - decide to write instead,
meditate instead, drink instead
mad nights outside dorm yackety yacking about sex drugs
religion politics ya ya ya,
parties at maniac houses flirting still attached -
nope, wait, broke up with her: so, you wanna go out?
Single rose on car seat, dinner at fine Italian restaraunt
with an end in a smill...no kiss no hold hands -
just an angel to be close to, someone to hold.
closest i've ever gotten to bear all soul writing...still working...tell me
what you think.
Ryan Stonecipher
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:35:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
> The tangled, complex undertow of interrelations between the great Beat
> figures is fascinating and, I think, essential to an understanding of their
> lives and works.
> Regards,
>
> Arthur S. Nusbaum
Just as the weather changes overnight here in Kansas my mind twists
full-circle. In the event that the interest in the intimate details is
along the lines suggested by Arthur here i would think it makes
sigificant sense to look into the matter.
Where the voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the
lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:52:37 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: To Derek Beaulieu RE: Dada-cutup connection
Derek:
A belated response to your post to me re: Dadaist ancestry of cutups. It
serves me right for opining on this before having read EVERYTHING by and
about WSB & his collaborations with Gysin- among the very few items I
haven't yet read is THE THIRD MIND, but I own it and will duly get to it and
see if a reference to dadaist forebears is there. As soon as I read your
post, I remembered something else relevant to this issue- In his very early
years (circa age 20, mid-1930's), BG was living in paris and directly
participating in the Surrealist movement, which really was a movement at that
time and place, dictated to by its self-appointed leader, Andre Breton,
through his SURREALIST MANIFESTO and ongoing domination over the movement and
its members. BG was to have contributed to some major Surrealist exhibit,
but his works were removed at the insistence of Breton just before it opened,
and I think that ended BG's official involvement with the Surrealists.
Apparently Breton was very temperamental and easy to displease, his wrath
also came down on Dali and others. I've always wondered why the figures of
such a free-spirited, innovative movement allowed themselves initially to be
dominated and politicized by such a prima donna.
I should probably study him further, he must have had some sinister charisma
that held sway with people who were themselves such independent mavericks.
Anyway, since the Dadaists directly preceded and were in many cases the same
people who went on to become the Surrealists, BG was directly exposed to and
connected with Dada/Surrealism, and there MUST have therefore been an
influence, direct or indirect, conscious or not, on the cutups by these
movements, even if BG referred to the cutups as a discovery brought about by
a "happy accident".
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:05:31 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: To Derek Beaulieu RE: Dada-cutup connection
Comments: To: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970717105237_127888456@emout05.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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arthur
sure it was a happy accident - but so much of frottage (rubbings of
texture), collage (cut&paste) and cut-up is happy accident and
celebration of the nonscencical and unexpected juxtapositioning of images.
thanks for reminding me about gysin and the surrealist movemnt. i do
believe that you are right that he was associated by breton (and co) in
the 20's & 30's (i think) in paris. this i guess would be post dada, early
surrealist (if my timelist memeory serves). for a great biography on
breton check out _revolution of the mind_
i think that the arguement that dada influenced wsb 7 bg is strong
, but where can it be taken? (ah theres the rub, right?) can its influence
be seen thru-out wsb's work?collage as a theme as well as a technique for
construction - so i was thinking: the obsession with the body and
graft,disease, etc - could it be seen as a sort of "biological cut-up"
reassembling, recutting - arriving at new conclusions and new reults by
reassembling the human form?
hmmm
derek
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:25:12 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <970717011307_-823358633@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I guess there is or has been a tendency to want to clean up Jack
Kerouac's image for public consumption. Jack was a fringe figure in
society during his life but predicatably, his writing has outlived him
and his myth/legend will grow larger as the years go by.
A while back in this group, it was pointed out that a new book about
Kerouac spoke bluntly about Jack's drug use. Some in this group from
Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast as this all-american
hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as a drug abuser.
Jack probably did have plenty of sex with both sexes, he was promiscious
and adventurous. He also did heroin and speed for a number of years.
>From all I've read about Jack, there was a time in his life where he
wanted to try everything and do *everything* and go *everywhere* Part of
the beat spirit.
I dont think he could have been the writer he was had he not been open to
these experiences. It cana lso be argued though that maybe he lived too
much too soon, and wouldnt have died an alchoholic recluse if he felt any
other experiences were still out there. At any rate, the question of
Jack's sexuality is not important anymore. I dont see any need to dwell
on it.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:29:21 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Post Office
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Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z red
itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
_The Western Lands_ is neckst.
Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.
James M.
Meye noz runz. Eye doent. ""
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:32:10 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970717111559.8780A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> Some in this group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast
> as this all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as
> a drug abuser.
And of course they're ignoring the fact that gross drug abuse has always
been an all-american hometown activity.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:14:11 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: John A. Gregorio
Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi. Me again. Thadeus from Second Beat. The response from the magazine has
been great, thanks guys. But there is some confusion about one of the
orders. I need to get in contact with a Mr. John A. Gregorio to discuss his
order. If John or anyone who can get in touch with him is reading this,
e-mail me at <2ndbeat@telapex.com>
Thanks,
Thadeus D'Angelo, Camellia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:56:02 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: welcome to the ninties, again
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in richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
to do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious
connection later.
i was talking with a friend who told me when she was in college, she
took a course about how the generations generally repeat themselves
every forty years inwhat they do and in general beliefs and feelings
toward society. this can be proven true. for example, in the forties
most everyone had a family and settled down. but not people neal
cassady and some other members of the post- war generation.
and in the eighties, again most people did the wife and kids thing,
but some people did not (your avid skater/ punk rocker). in the
fifties, some people started a family and some people became beatniks
and embraced (excuse me for using alduos huxley's title) a brave new
world. and now you may be thinking that because of the ninties, i may
be wrong. if you think that in the ninties jack doesn't ever happen
and never will- look undergroun for the now named "elctronictcia".
this style of music reminds me of the all-nite jazz shows that jack
and neal went to even more so because some people goto all-nite
techno music raves. so all i'm really saying is that we are
experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late
eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:06:08 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: ecstatic bunny tracks leading to bleepy alien music
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hello beetles....
another day, another twiddle of the thumbs, or perusal of my dated copies
of NME, or etc, as i wait for the msgs to download from this great list in
the sky, or at least across it...i scan through half or so, having to do
with one or a combo of 4 things: Joyce, VOC, the mysterious rift between
kerouac and cassady, or that person asking about Lady Day...(Hey Sara F,
i'll tell ya, your post concerning the sex/lit correllations really kicked
me in the tail though...)
Realised i haven't posted to this little list for, hm, close to 2 months
now. not very much like me, i must say. i suppose my motivation, in this
case lack-there-of, in not posting to the list, has to do mainly with all
the kerouac-related discussion. Never got into him. Bought a few of his
books and put them all down, even the infamous 'On The Road'...I suppose i
am strictly a Burroughs man, save for 'Howl' and 'Kaddish' which i loved,
and were my first forays into this beat world, along with B.Miles's AG
biography, which i found in a used bkshop for $2...why do i tell you all
this? i feel like writing. this breaks maybe a block that's been in place
longer than i care to admit. I recall B.Gargan's post concerning the
purposes of this list, but let's just say i left that msg next to an open
window and it rained. really hard. but just this once...i know, i know,
delete if you will.
I remember reading a OneTwo combo of Ulysses and Naked Lunch after a car
accident put me out of commission the year i was 17. i loved them both,
after not understanding a single word. for some reason the language in them
showed me there was more to words than just putting them together to create
scenarios of death and suicide, some may laugh at the irony of this, but,
loving life as i didn't, this showed me to love words as i could, their
viral infliction/infection, the expresssion blessed....
17 was a melodramatic year for me, it was. i took a pile of canvases
outside one early morning, around 4 or so, and burned them next to the very
suburban apartment building in which i shared a unit with my father.
plastic burning was in my nose for what seemed like days, but was probably
just hours....I threw away all my paint, didn't talk to people, drew pen
and ink sketches maybe, but mostly mutilated pics of ppl and things into
collages, around, about, and for words. i listened to angry music,'songs
about garbage disposals written by jackhammers' to loosely paraphrase DC...
I wrote one short story, about love through a sickness physical on one
side, mental on another, about what the world showed me love to be, which
is probably much different than what it has shown you all, as it is much
different for all of us, individually, because that's what i see it, love,
to be, though not nearly a tender thing for me, individual for all of us in
the end. i could be wrong. we could all be wrong... but i finished this
piece, and i read it out loud, at a reading, mostly among friends, and in a
small place, and i sat down, still holding the printed papers, and as my
ass hit the seat the thought hit my mind, softly, like a hammer wrapped in
cloth, that i would never write like that again. not because i couldn't,
but rather because i wouldn't, because, as someone we all know so well once
said, it was just too dangerous.
..and i haven't, that 17yr old day being near 6 years ago...I sit here
jacked into this computer, listening to the bleepy alien music that i love,
that i create, that i pretty much eat and breathe; gives images of droves
of bunnies hopping across technicolor fields of grass, towards the music,
attracted by those unseen patterns that only some of us pick up on, the
disembodied voices, the snatches of songs from other places or times,
etc...staring at white text field remembering the last time i saw someone
that i had once dearly loved, she asked me if i could get her ecstasy,
because she had heard i knew all the dealers.
maybe at this point i blink back tears. maybe at this point i hit 'send' or
discard'. maybe at this point i remember i got her the x, putting it in her
palm that secret way, hoping to myself that it was an acceptable substitute
for the kind that her and i had shared for five years, and quickly giving
myself a mental kick for being so fucking stupid/sentimental...
...there are no words within a specific sphere. that sphere can be a good
or a bad place to be. me? i haven't figured it out yet...i'll let you know
when i do.
-z
Markup/Graphic Design Team
Internet Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608) 285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:05:07 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
Comments: To: randy royal <randyr@southeast.net>
In-Reply-To: <199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, randy royal wrote:
> in richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
> said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
> everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
> inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
> everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
> to do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious
> connection later.
yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's
addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."
> so all i'm really saying is that we are
> experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
> stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late
> eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
yeah agree totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site
if "indie rock as renaissance" appeals to you.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:32:08 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
In-Reply-To: <199707171707.NAA24963@mailhub.southeast.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
those involved in underground (so-called, in my opinion) movements are
often reluctant to show/expose their roots.
at this point, electronica is the media's machine. to info-ate the masses,
'electronica' was a descriptive term used to define a style of electronic
music coming primarily out of the uk and the west coast, characterised by
slow, lazy breakbeats, bass tones and odd or experimental or hooky
synth lines and various computer noises etc...minimal sample use, heavily
utilised in the 'chill-out' rooms at raves in the early/mid 90s.
'electronica' is now the media's catch-all term for anything not
guitar-bass-singer-drum driven, anything usuing primarily electronic
equipment, a turntable, what have you...record companies want to make
'electronica' the next 'grunge'. look at The Prodigy, currently #1 album in
the country...wow cs are pushin' hard, huh? me, i think it's funny. record
companies, they don't realise the best 'electronica' is coming out of
bedrooms, put out on record labels like the one a friend of mine runs out
of his basement...but this is another discussion, sorry to all i've bored.
what i want to address is the comparing of the jazz parties to the raves.
although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is
often overlooked in my opinion), the level of intellect at the old jazz
parties as oppsed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: you talk,
you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about
whatever...operative word: talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the music.
you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you dance some more.
you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a joke amongst
those who actually do.
I love both of these gatherings. i throw jazz parties and i throw rave
parties, for different reasons.
cocktail/jazz parties when i want to get together, talk, discuss, etc with
good friends, strangers, what-have-you; raves when i want to dance my ass
off to the music i love while smacked out on e (sometimes), usually with
the same friends (heh)...there really is no intellectual level to raves,
unless you're up there djing, or organising, or involved with the show.
otherwise it is entertainment on an extremely base level...but who knows.
maybe that's all those jazz parties were to Jack and Neal, so the whole
discussion i've just had with myself is moot. but hey, it was still fun.
for me, if not for all 209 of you...heh.
the rennaissance? yeah sure, it's going on...it started with Kraftwerk (not
solely, but they've been cited many times as huge influence on electronic
music), and has been evolving ever since. those of us who make this kind of
music, all kinds actually, we'll take it further i'm sure...
but i'd like to see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's
not 50 years behind anymore, but it sure is back there...
-z
(yeah i lost a bit a weight since my last post...)
Markup/Graphic Design Team
Internet Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608) 285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:39:23 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
zach, being a part of the newest "alternative" music scene, i have to agree
with you on some points: i do agree that genres of electronica like house
and trance are genres without very much intellectual backing...they are,
like you said, ways to dance your ass off, usually under the influence of
psychedelics like E and acid...but, with the new sound coming from the UK
in the form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,
i can find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and "intellectual"
music forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...take for instance
LTJ Bukem...don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's on the front
lines of the drum 'n' bass explosion outta the UK...jungle is based on jazz
samples and jazz breakbeats...as easy to chill out to, write to, and talk
above as any jazz...to me it takes someone as creative as a Charlie Parker
or John Coltrane to piece together various and sundry parts of a recording
and make it as beautiful as Bukem can...
The Prodigy? they suck...in my opinion, anyway.
Ryan Stonecipher
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:47:14 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Bukowski
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ryan,
Herd a seadee kald "Bukowski", terned mee ontoo hiz ztuf. Hee red sum ov
hiz poettree two uh rowdee crowd, ckepd thretnin themm, zgreat. _Post
Office_ z thferst novl eiv red fizz.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:46:22 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
i agree too... SF's had a huge renaissance of the 50's/60's head space. JK
and AG are huge here right now, drug culture more prominent, tons of head
shops, bhuddist, metaphysical shops.... not that any of this ever disappears
completely from SF - it's part of the natural outlook for the City, thank
god... but there has been a rather strong proliferation of such things here.
some of is is too gentrified and pseudo-cool... but there's a lot more of the
real thing now than there was during the deathly conservative Reagan years.
Haight St. is much more heavily populated than it was then, too.
Last year deYoung Museum did a wonderful Beat Generation exhibit, MOMA
held/Yerba Buena Gardens held Beat symposia and poetry and, as well as prose,
readings have multiplied a good deal.
Michael, what's your URL?
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Michael Stutz
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 10:05 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, randy royal wrote:
> in richards post awhile back about jack's self destruction period, he
> said that there was a time in jack's life where he wanted to do
> everything, be everywhere etc. this reminded me of a song by nine
> inch nails where at the end trent reznor sings, "i want tobe
> everywhere i want to do everything, i want to fuck everyone, i want
> to do something.. that matters!" i will get to less obvious
> connection later.
yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's
addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."
> so all i'm really saying is that we are
> experiencing a renascaince now- one of music. (forgive me if i was to
> stereotypical, i was not a conscious organism until the late
> eighties) does any one else agree? disagree? cya~randy
yeah agree totally. check the beat-l logs or the music parts of my web site
if "indie rock as renaissance" appeals to you.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:51:03 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael Stutz wrote:
>
> yup. a common theme in 90s lit and music. lord byron echoed in jane's
> addiction "wish i was ocean sized, no one can hold you man no one tries."
>
boy you hit a memory bank.
a gang of pranksters head to Lollapalllllooooooossssssaaaa outside
Chicago somewhere with a big EARTH thing on it. Became symbolic later.
Decided to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the
music took me. The Butthole Surfers were ending as we walked in through
the crowds. The sounds flow over me in my memory. I recall dancing
like some kind of Druid prodigy until collapsing, blowing bubbles on the
lawn, another round of crazed ritual body movements, another collapse.
i lay on the ground not moving. I stared at the sky searching for the
farthest star. I remember a band named Jane's Addiction i'd never heard
of (i was just going along with the youngsters) coming on and beginning
to play music with such incredible FORCE. I left. I would not be
surprised if i was on that farthest star. The next thing i remember the
show is over the crowds are filing away and my friends are circled
around me and my old old friend Pioneer is rubbing my shoulder saying
David are you Okay. I turned my head toward him and smiled a smile that
said where i'd been. He grinned. We headed for the parking lot. I'd
made a tape for the trip thank goodness cause the parking lot was a
disaster. We sat in the minivan. First Robert Johnson sang
Crossroads. Second Eric Clapton sang Crossroads. I smiled. It was
nice to be home.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:03:03 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@softdisk.com>
In-Reply-To: <199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:
>although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is
>often overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz
>parties as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you
>talk, you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about
>whatever...operative word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the
>music. you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance
>some more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a
>joke amongst those >who actually do.
i realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.
...as far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,
with Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his
music. I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,
clear records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love
this stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an
example some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're
right about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only
problem is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,
the west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have
been some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for
writin' to...
It's my belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to
Burroughs and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of
those and hear roots.
babbling off topic once again...
-z
Markup/Graphic Design Team
Internet Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608) 285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:01:10 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Sexuality
ok, here's my two cents...
mostly i think the sexuality issue is unimportant except where it perhaps
gives insight to actions, thoughts, references in the books.
that being said, i think that what we have here in JK, perhaps NC, too, is a
true lover. JK fell in love with NC. doesn't really matter if they had sex
or not. what matters is what they meant to each other. their sexual
orientation, from what i can gather, was mainly het. but way beyond that was
an ability to truly fall in love. it was one of the things that really sent
me in OTR - this paean of love from one man to another... something men are
extremely reticent about, most of the time. it blew me away and i thought it
was beautiful. regardless of sexuality or any of the other dynamics in the
JK/NC/AG relationships... there was real love at one point. i think that's a
rare and gorgeous thing and even rarer in print.
'nuff said.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:07:50 -0400
Reply-To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
Subject: NBR...jane's addiction
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jane'sAddiction are getting back together, starting a tour Oct. 25th in San
Francisco, for those innarested....
-z
Markup/Graphic Design Team
Internet Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608) 285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:11:24 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music
i was too, in a way...didn't get my thoughts across...you are right that
raves are mindless dance the night away affairs...in no way related to the
jazz sessions at Birdland or places like taht in the 50's...but, there's a
club here in town...a coffee house that has a dnb DJ that spins on
weekends...very cool...go, drink coffee, chat amongst yrselves...that i can
compare to those sessions...but i guess taht is the exception, not the
rule...
ryan.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:41:45 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
WSB be thanked - but John Cage is probably the heaviest influence in that
genre...
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Zach Hoon
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 1997 11:03 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
ryan, i was comparing the events, not the music...here, i said:
>although there is a serious intellect behind electronic music (that is
>often overlooked in my opinion), >the level of intellect at the old jazz
>parties as opposed to the raves is drastically different....jazz: >you
>talk, you listen to the music, you talk about the music, you talk about
>whatever...operative word: >talk. rave: you dance. you listen to the
>music. you can't really talk because the music is too loud. you >dance
>some more. you 'rave' <- the use of this word has become somewhat of a
>joke amongst those >who actually do.
i realise the intellect behind electronic music. i make it and i spin it.
...as far as Bukem, he was at the House of Blues last weekend, in Chicago,
with Blame, et al...i myself missed it, but am very familiar with his
music. I spin drum'n'bass, as well as downtempo/leftfield (ninjas, mo'wax,
clear records, warp records, et al), and some breakbeat and house....i love
this stuff, and yeah prodigy is not great. at all. i had to come up with an
example some folks on the list may have actually heard of...But you're
right about d'n'b, easy to talk over, write and chill to, etc. the only
problem is the only all night d'n'b events i've heard of are either in NY,
the west coast, or the uk, all three far away from me. recently there have
been some hardstep/techstep jungle parties, but that stuff ain't for
writin' to...
It's my belief/opinion, that electronic music owes a great big thank you to
Burroughs and his tape experiments in the 60s, 70s...i listen to some of
those and hear roots.
babbling off topic once again...
-z
Markup/Graphic Design Team
Internet Concepts LLC
zach@netconcepts.com
(608) 285 6600
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:38:08 -0700
Reply-To: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lisa M. Rabey" <lisar@NET-LINK.NET>
Subject: Re: eye heart crane
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:29 AM 7/12/97 UT, you wrote:
>did City Lights, even tho da man already tole me they ain't publishin it no
>more, just in case... checked out the used books section, too.
>
>most beat stuff is hard to come by in used book stores round here cuz it's
>either not there cuz folks don't wanna part wid it or cuz it gets snatched up
>PDQ. next thing is da library... haven't had a chance to do dat yet, man.
>tomorrow checkin at da great used bookstore a blcok from my apt. maybe i'll
>get lucky, but only thing so far i've come up wid is nicoia's MemoryBabe.
>
>ciao,
>sherri
>
hrm, what book are you looking for? ;>
i live in the bay area (recent transplant) and when *i* meandered up
through china town, eating at the chinese resaturant right down the street
from city lights (did you get a peak at the african/antique gallery there,
incredible!) and walked through city lights hallowed rooms and up the
stairs to the poetry room and walked along touching the books ever so
gently with my fingertips, i just wanted to sit down and breathe in all
history and never leave. my ex-bf unfortunately was downstairs and doing
his 'you and your damn who-ha books', could never understand why i fall in
love with authors like buk and burroughs.
*sigh*
we really should have a bay area beat-l party at one point.
lisa
--
Lisa M. Rabey
Simunye Design
http://www.bigendian.com/~simunye
---------------------------------
words...1000's of words...wrapped together like wire
how easy it would be to hate you, and yet that is all
I can show you. Nothing lasts forever. -me
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:29:15 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Friendship
An interesting article: Dardess, George. "The Delicate Dynamics of Friendship
: A Reconsideration of Kerouac's OTR." American Literature, vol. 46 (1974), 20
0-206. Reprinted in OTR: Text & Criticism (Viking).
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:28:31 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33CE5B87.6024@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> Decided to forego most of the chemical additives and just see where the
> music took me. The Butthole Surfers were ending as we walked in through
> the crowds. The sounds flow over me in my memory.
summer of '91, first lolla 6 years ago (this year's one is in town tomorrow
i think). man that was a great show. i was puking when the butthole surfers
were on but by the time nin were getting off i was sober enough to stand up.
the next year's one was a mess but snuck in at 95 for sonic youth; they were
right on and it was one of the best shows i've ever seen.
sorry no beat content on this one.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:51:45 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
Comments: To: Zach Hoon <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>
In-Reply-To: <v03007802aff3b822162f@[206.190.9.125]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Zach Hoon wrote:
> but i'd like to see a bit more of a rennaissance in lit too...maybe it's
> not 50 years behind anymore, but it sure is back there...
i don't think so; i think it's just gotten very obscure. but definitely out
there -- this decade has produced innumerable zines (and even some good
ones) + a constant outpouring of lit on the net (newsgroups, lists, the web
etc). it's out there in a major way -- it's just no getting published by
madison avenue. fuck them anyway.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 17:04:01 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: welcome to the ninties, again - electronica
Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199707171743.MAA24686@server1.softdisk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:
> but, with the new sound coming from the UK
> in the form of jungle, drum 'n' bass, hardcore, whatever you wanna call it,
> i can find some relations to jazz and more "academic" and "intellectual"
> music forms (hardcore to a lesser extent than jungle)...
[snip]
> as easy to chill out to, write to, and talk above as any jazz...
this to me is where the slint/tortoise postrock scene is at. not even
neojazz, not at all, but they've got enough similarities here to be like
this. also the dronier side of indie rock: fsa, jessamine, labradford, etc
etc that whole huge terrastock drone rock scene. none of these to me are
like "modern jazz" or any of that, but in their own way each are fulfilling
certain things talked about here. i guess what i'm trying to say is that
what the hype machine is currently calling 'electronica' isn't the only new
music on the block...generically all of it can be called rock (but yeah this
is where the holy wars start between some of the dance music types vs. the
rock types), but generically... also a lot of early-mid 90s house music was
great to chill out to (still is).
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:00:40 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
in response to david r,
i am curious about this only for the reason of better understanding all of
the work they wrote and the background behind it. i am far from a voyeur,
and do not have any strange sexual obessions with the three, so you can
assauge your fears.
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:58:58 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
As long as we're on the topic of sexuality for a moment, who is H.P. in
AG's poem, Transcription of Organ Music?
"I remember when I first got laid, H.P. graciously took my cherry. I sat
on the docks of Provincetown, age 23, joyful, elevated in hope with the
Father, the door to the womb was open to admit me if I wished to enter."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:18:38 -0400
Reply-To: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Post Office
Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z
red
> itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
> _The Western Lands_ is neckst.
> Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.
>
> James M.
> Meye noz runz. Eye doent. ""
Is this supposed to be funny or cool?
It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
|"A fractal is by definition a set for which the Hausdorff Besicovitch
| dimension strictly exceeds the topological dimension."
|
| -- Mandelbrot, "The Fractal Geometry of Nature"
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 05:42:23 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: VOC Pathos
Pg 90, Penguin 1993 edition:
"America, the word, the sound is the sound of my unhappiness..... It is where
Cody Pomeray learned that people aren't good.... America made bones of a young
boy's face adn took dark paints and made hollows around his eyes, and made his
cheeks sink in pallid waste and grew furrows on a marble front... America's a
lonely crockashit." (Underlining is mine - what poetry...)
here it is: Cody and America being interchangeable in a sense... the demise
of America is the downfall of Cody and vice versa. JK refers to the heart
reappearing when all the salesmen die... a direct comment on the effect of
materialism on the American dream and on the loss of youth, freedom,
happiness. heartbreaking....
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 01:57:33 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:10 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-16 13:19:58 EDT, you write:
>
><< at Gable looking at Marilyn >>
>Chopping wood warms you twice they say. You should wait for the wood to
>freeze. Much easir. You probably know that. Yeah, that movie had a weird
>portent. All the actors and director died shortwith. There was some rumor
>that they had hauled in radioctive dust from other parts of Nevada to make
>the roping scenes.
>CP
>
>
Hey,
Load of crap. Gabel died within a week after the movie wrapped in 1961. Monroe
died in August, 1962, more than a year later, a suicide. Eli Wallach is still
alive. Thelma Ritter lived on until the late sixties. John Huston, the
director,
died in the late 80s. Arthur Miller, the screenwriter, still lives. Sure we've
had an overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked. Oh,
yes, Monty Clift died of a heart attack in 1965. The film was released in 1961.
Huston supposedly pushed Gable hard on the Mustang capture scenes, physically,
I mean, but that's all I remember from this film. Thelma Ritter was in The
Incident in 1967.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:00:00 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
In a message dated 97-07-17 11:45:14 EDT, you write:
<< . at least none of my fucking business. >>
Tempting. But I can't quite gosssip in cyberspace. No inuendos. And gossip
sometimes is sometimes physical contact in drag.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:02:02 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: rwallner@CapAccess.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:06 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>> Listen, Gore Vidal says both Kerouac and Cassady were homosexual,
>> and had been lovers, at least at times. isn't it possible
>> homosexuality played a role in their rift?
>>
>> Mike Rice
>> mrice@centuryinter.net
>
>Cassady and *Ginsberg* were lovers...Kerouac doubtless was attracted to
>Cassady (hell he wrote two books about him!) But he was hetero in the
>extreme from what I've read.
>
>
In his book Palimpsest, Vidal claims to have screwed Kerouac himself, in
the late 40s, after a night at the San Remo Gay Bar in NYC.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:05:41 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cuputs
In a message dated 97-07-17 12:49:54 EDT, you write:
<< but when you are re-typing the new work, can you insert
words and refine phrases, or must you simply transcribe what you see on the
paper? (I do know that what you see will be different every time, just like
tape transcriptions, but maybe this is another story.)
>>
The generic term used to be "Experimental Prose." What if it works?
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:14:06 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
In a message dated 97-07-17 14:39:46 EDT, you write:
<< Some in this group from
Lowell got really upset because Jack's been recast as this all-american
hometown hero and they dont want to think of Jack as a drug abuser. >>
Do they read the Newmoralityspeak York Times up there too?
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:15:13 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:31 PM 7/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>It is also worth pointing out that Memere Kerouac deliberately
>interefered with Jack's relationships with his beat friends. She
>routinely opened and read Jack's letters before he got to see them and
>apparently took to throwing out anything that came from Ginsberg, who she
>thought was trying to turn Jack into a homosexual non-catholic, and Neal
>for similar reasons (she'd found out about Allen and Neal affair from
>reading the letters)
>
>It is sad but Jack evidently let his mother control his life more or less
>completely and filter much of what he knew of his old friends. She
>probably would have made up lies about Allen and Neal just to get Jack to
>not communicate with them.
>
>RJW
>
>
When Kerouac died in Florida, he was living with a woman, who, in effect
was his surrogate mother, as his mother had died in Lowell some years
earlier. An early 70s Esquire article on the last days of Jack makes it
clear Jack was very attached to his Mom. These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
and Ginsburg, were all gay. The reason it is so difficult for a lot of
people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack). Read it again, its
a love story about these two. Noone knew that except the insiders in
1957 when OTR was published.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:32:38 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: Tread37@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As I have written earlier, Vidal claims to have had Kerouac
after a night at the San Remo, a 40s NYC gay bar. But I should
mention something I noticed about Vidal's autobio. Every strong
story and assertion about aberrant or non mainstream sexual
behavior, was invariably about someone who was already dead. In
other words, the biographee could not complain from the grave.
For instance, Gore has Jacqui Bouvier getting her first piece in
Paris from a friend of Gore's. Gore was not happy about his half-
sister's shunning of him after 1962. Could he be telling rancid
tails about her to get even? Sure he could have.
Still, what Gore said about all these people, even if they are dead,
could be interpreted as just Vidal holding his water until the
biographees were decently dead, before letting fly with what he knew.
Can you imagine what a job is going to be done on him once he is
dead?
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
At 01:13 AM 7/17/97 -0400, you wrote:
>******************************************************************************
>********************
>could some one please help me out here? i am very curious to figure out the
>whole sexual relations between jack, neal, and allen...
>
>it is obviously quite clear that neal and allen had a homosexual
>relationship.
>
> but what about jack? did either neal or allen or both have homosexual
>relations with jack?
> if not, how much did jack know about neal and allen?
>anyone who knows anythingabout this, please HELP ME OUT!
>
>satisfy my curiousity, darlin's,
>
>jenn
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:49:30 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Post Office
In-Reply-To: <199701180520.AAA12035@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:18 PM -0700 7/17/97, Bill Philibin wrote:
> > Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z
> red
> > itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
> > _The Western Lands_ is neckst.
> > Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.
> >
> > James M.
> > Meye noz runz. Eye doent. ""
>
> Is this supposed to be funny or cool?
>
> It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.
I suggest that it is not poetry either. nope. it's duende. beyond
language. and beyond control
>
> -Bill
((got a wild hare up my ass tonight, Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 02:45:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
In a message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:
<< Where the voyeurism overshadows the interest in the other aspects of the
lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern. >>
Don't they have no necromancers out there?
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 23:52:41 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970718005617.1b17deca@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:57 PM -0700 7/17/97, Mike Rice wrote:
> Sure we've
> had an overdose of UFOs lately, but its no reason to go off half-cocked.
I'd like to see you prove it __wasn't__ aliens that killed em all. and
them alive. well, they be aliens too.
prove it. rip it.
> Mike Rice
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 00:06:02 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Jenn Fedor's curiosity
In-Reply-To: <970718024542_-1426464465@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:45 PM -0700 7/17/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a message dated 97-07-17 15:23:32 EDT, you write:
>
> << Where the voyeurism overshadows the inter[net] in the other aspects of the
> lives of these folks i will remain prudishly Midwestern. >>
>
> Don't they have no necromancers out there?
Neuromancers, Charles. Neuromancers. ((see R. Gibson
> C Plymell
Douglas
[[this joke is getting old fas t
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:45:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: horseshit
I insist it was horeshit.
C.P.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:48:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: sifting of tea leaves ((minimal beat
In a message dated 97-07-18 02:00:19 EDT, you write:
<< Load of crap. >>
Let's be accurate. I insist it was horseshit!
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:55:12 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: tired dog tired haiku
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
O
only
4
years
span
!
---
yrs
Rinaldo * a beet needs water *
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> ...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
> and Ginsburg, were all gay. The reason it is so difficult for a lot of
> people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
> Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
> relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack). Read it again, its
> a love story about these two. Noone knew that except the insiders in
> 1957 when OTR was published.
>
> Mike Rice
not to step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has
lately with Jack Kerouac's sexuality? reading AG's biography now Dharma
Lion, so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK
and NC were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very
close friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in
AG's case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two
brothers would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!
at least in the case of AG & Cassady, Neal gave himself to Allen out of a
sense of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested
in men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very
experimental...but that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge
Kerouac and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...
ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:22:06 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: Lowell on Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Some in this group from Lowell got really upset because Jack's been
recast
> as this all-american hometown hero and they dont want to think of
Jack as
> a drug abuser.
Who? When? Jack has not been been recast as an all-american hometown
hero. If anything, his substance abuse is still an active memory among
people in Lowell and a major obstacle to achieving the hometown
acceptance and recognition that a writer of his stature deserves. We
don't deny his substance abuse problems- we can't- but they are
certainly not something we care to celebrate or emphasize, and they
are not what he should be remembered for. Our objective is to
celebrate the art of Jack Kerouac and to promote the study and
enjoyment of his writing and his joyous approach to life. Come to
Lowell in October for the 10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! and
see for yourself how we want to think about Jack Kerouac.
Mark Hemenway
President, Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:01:08 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Cody as America
Yes, Sheri, your comments right on target I think. Cody is symbolic of
a failed American Dream crushed by materialism and what Allen Ginsberg
often referred to as "hard heartedness."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:38:01 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: horseshit
In-Reply-To: <970718044557_444685482@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
<<running late for work>>
At 1:45 AM -0700 7/18/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> I insist it was horeshit.
Well, if you insist, then ok.
Norman Mailer in his early years picasso book, tells the story of how P got
in trouble with his family. too many homosexual affairs, bad clothes and
attitude, not enough money brought in, etc. etc. I've probably got the
reasons all wrong, now that I think about it.
Anyhow, to make amends with his family, Picasso goes to the local
whorehouse and sleeps with women that his father "knew". It was a "family"
house. And he probably made this visit over and over again until his
family was completely satisfied that Picasso had run all his wild hares out
of town. Something like that.
The morale of the story involves returning to paris, smoking lots of hash,
and locking the girlfriend in the house (daily). Ah, artists.
So ok. It's horeshit. but what are you gonna do with it now? These
scatalogical poems/connotations always make me quesy.
> C.P.
Douglas
PS: I might have been unsubscribed yesterday again at my work address.
More than likely the pipe was just clogged. Eitherway, email me at
dkpenn@oees.com if you want to reach me during work hours M-F.
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ let the man come thru
stand up, and let the man come thru let the man come thru
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:26:17 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Phor BillaFillabin
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> Allmost dun Bukowski's _Post Office_. Eyes wonderin phenybody elz z
>red
>> itt, lyke two commint aunit, ewe no.
>> _The Western Lands_ is neckst.
>> Four thO's intarrested, a Joyz lisserfer xists.
>>
>> James M.
>> Meye noz runz. Eye doent. ""
>
> Is this supposed to be funny or cool?
>
> It's a disgrace to post this to a literary based list.
>
> -Bill
Phunny? Kool? Kneether. Hear, hav sum either. Eim jest hookd onn
fonicks mie phrend.
Dizgraze? Ure thjudg. Itz ure verdicked buht mie zentence.
Uor kritizm ov uh righting ztyl, anne xperement, iz duelly notid buht
duzITT ad enythin two "a literary based list"?
Evr red "Old Angel Midnight" blak Bilely? Reely enjoied wut uad too zae
abowt _Post Office_.
Hears sum add vice ure onher, iff yaint diginitt, ch ch chainge thachannell.
"I wasn't born with enough middle fingers."-M.M.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:16:42 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:12:32 -0500
> Reply-to: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
> From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <evets@SOFTDISK.COM>
> Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> > ...These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
> > and Ginsburg, were all gay. The reason it is so difficult for a lot of
> > people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
> > Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
> > relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack). Read it again, its
> > a love story about these two. Noone knew that except the insiders in
> > 1957 when OTR was published.
> >
> > Mike Rice
>
> not to step on any toes, here...but what is the obsession this list has
> lately with Jack Kerouac's sexuality? reading AG's biography now Dharma
> Lion, so i'm picking up a lot of stuff i didn't know about these guys...JK
> and NC were not gay...simply because three men (AG, JK, & NC) were very
> close friends does not mean that they were homosexual (except, of course in
> AG's case)...kerouac and cassady shared a strong bond in the way that two
> brothers would - or a teacher and a student - or two REALLY GOOD FRIENDS!!!
> at least in the case of AG & Cassady, Neal gave himself to Allen out of a
> sense of respect, not gay love...Cassady couldn't have been less interested
> in men...NC and JK were very open with their sexuality and very
> experimental...but that does not mean that they were gay...to my knowledge
> Kerouac and Cassady never engaged in any kind of homosexual encounters...
>
> ryan
>
>
ryan- right on!
and mike- try not to look through a telescopebecause eventually your
just going to run into the Truth again
cya~randy
"the simplest answer is the correct one"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:20:05 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Style
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Beatniks,
You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of Bill
Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill
has two l's right?). Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned to
set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he
received my reply. Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother me
that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I
am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a
passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this
person again. This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or I
to him. But he was left with the impression that I was trying to corrupt
the grammar of any youngsters on this list. I really don't know what to
make of the whole scenario. One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you
wanna write." Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of
this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions or
comments would be appreciated.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:47:49 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Style
Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
james/jimmy/jim/jimbo
dont worry about all of that - "you can offend some of the people some of
the time, but you cant offend everyone all of the time"
(or something like that). - lincoln said that
"ill let you be in my dream if i can be in yrs" - bob dylan said that.
yr style is yr style. personally verbal gymnastics pique my interest, just
depends on where you take it i suppose.
yrs
derek
On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, James William Marshall wrote:
>
> Beatniks,
> You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of Bill
> Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, Bill
> has two l's right?). Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned to
> set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he
> received my reply. Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother me
> that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit that I
> am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a
> passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this
> person again. This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or I
> to him. But he was left with the impression that I was trying to corrupt
> the grammar of any youngsters on this list. I really don't know what to
> make of the whole scenario. One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you
> wanna write." Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of
> this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions or
> comments would be appreciated.
>
> James M.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:08:54 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
Mike:
In your post from 97-07-18 05:47:14 EDT, you write:
"....(Kerouac's) mother had died in Lowell some years earlier."
JK's mother, Gabrielle ("Memere"), was alive and living with JK and his wife,
Stella when he died in Florida in 1969. She was ill and a semi-invalid by
then, but she outlived JK and died in 1972. I certainly agree that Stella
was a "surrogate mother" to JK, trying to prevent him from drinking himself
to death, unsuccessfully, keeping fans from bothering him, etc. They had
known each other since his childhood in Lowell, and when he was near the end
of the line he married her to take care of him and his mother, more a nurse
than a wife. This I think was the only circumstance under which JK would
ever marry, he had a lifelong M.O. of getting out of or avoiding marriages,
and denied that he was his daughter Jan's father. He was very conflicted and
tormented in this regard, yearning for security and looking up to those he
saw as being or trying to be settled (including Neal Cassady as he struggled
to be a family man with Carolyn and his children), but unable to ever happily
settle down himself. I don't agree that JK, NC and AG "were all gay", only
AG among them was completely gay, although even he experimented with
heterosexuality during his pre-HOWL youth. JK and NC both had occasional gay
sex, though not with each other that can be verified, but were straight most
of the time as far as their outward behavior. The famously intense
friendship between JK and NC, I think, went beyond the bounds of what can be
categorized as gay/straight into the realm of mytholigization, an emotional
and mutually empathetic bond that went beyond sexuality, although that may
have been a partial, latent component, an underlying inspiration to be read
between the lines. While definitely an important factor in understanding the
lives and work of the key Beat figures, I don't think sexuality is the only
explaination for or significance of OTR or VOC, which immortalized the
relationship of JK & NC, and elevated it to a level of art and myth even as
it faithfully transcribed it down to earth.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:01:16 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: John Coltrane.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"You know, I want to be a force for real good. In other words, I know that
there are bad forces, forces put here that bring suffering to others and
misery to the world, but I want to be the force which is truly good."
-- John Coltrane (from an interview by Frank Kofsky)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:13:36 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: A Love Supreme
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"God breathes through us so completely...
so gently we hardly feel it...yet,
it is our everything.
Thought waves - heat waves -
all vibrations - all paths lead to God.
The universe has many wonders.
ELATION - ELEGANCE - EXALTATION -
All from God.
Thank you God. Amen
-John Coltrane
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:33 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Style
In-Reply-To: <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12.20 18/07/97 -0700, James William Marshall wrote:
>Beatniks,
>comments would be appreciated.
>
> James M.
>
Stifling heat
the people turn the head
to the right & to the left
like walkin'pigeons
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:24:50 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: Re: Style
Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
i personally cannot believe that someone is denying one man the right to =
experimentation - though i guess he's not denying you that, just =
disagreeing with it...my incredulity arises from the fact that we are on =
a BEAT mailing list...would there have been a "beat generation" (i hate =
that term, personally) without experimentation and leping the bounds of =
established literature? would there have been a "Howl" or "On the =
Road"? i think not...James, go on experimenting man, it's just the =
kinda breath of fresh air i like...
ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: James William Marshall [SMTP:dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET]
Sent: Friday, 18 July, 1997 2:20 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Style
Beatniks,
You may have noticed my recent run in with a fellow by the name of =
Bill
Philbin (I think I got the spelling right, my apologies if I didn't, =
Bill
has two l's right?). Anyway, he backchanneled me to say that he planned =
to
set his e-mail to ignore any further messages from me so I doubt that he
received my reply. Although this interpersonal situation doesn't bother =
me
that much (after all, I almost begged him to ignore me), I must admit =
that I
am bothered by the fact that a stylistic experiment (almost certainly a
passing fancy) has ruined any chance of _ever_ communicating with this
person again. This person may be someone who has nothing to offer me or =
I
to him. But he was left with the impression that I was trying to =
corrupt
the grammar of any youngsters on this list. I really don't know what to
make of the whole scenario. One side of me says, "Uh, write the way you
wanna write." Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired =
of
this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions =
or
comments would be appreciated.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:49:32 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Thanks and Questions
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
First, I'd like to thank those who supported my experimentation.
Second, I'd like to acknowledge the one comment made by Bill Gargan, that
this list is about Burroughs, Kerouac and Ginsberg. I'm not going to deny
that these guys were "beats" but who decided that the "beat movement" ended?
When did it end, why did it end, and what do we call WSB? A postmodernist?
I don't believe that current "real literature" (whatever the hell that is
anyway) is all postmodern. If there's a tension that's omnipresent on this
list it's the one I feel, and suspect that others feel, when somebody brings
up an author or artist or musician that the person believes is at least
"related" to the beat tradition. Remember Lusha? Anyway, my final question
stemming from Mr. Gargan's polite and righteous comment (seriously, no
sarcasm) is: Aren't examples of techniques used by the beats relevant to
this list. I know that reading other people's writing on this list is one
of the things that I like most about it. There are no groups of writers,
influenced by the beats, who are willing to share their souls like I've
found on this list anywhere else. I hope that no one feels afraid to offer
a glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in awhile.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:03:00 +0900
Reply-To: rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Morning, all.
I'm trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music
sites/record companies... can anyone help?
Cheers,
Rastous
Terry Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review
& 5UV
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm
For further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:27:59 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Style
In-Reply-To: <199707181920.MAA27313@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:20 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:
> Another side of me says, "Even I'm getting a little tired of
> this phonetic stuff (with the exception of my poetry)." Any suggestions or
> comments would be appreciated.
>
yep, I see you've met God too. Well, don't let it ruin yer day. That's my
advice. Have you been motivated to produce any other types of experiments
(as a result)?? Especially, <<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,
Kerouac, or Ginsberg?
> James M.
dimple pox
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:01:20 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mike,
I have to throw my own vote with the others who find this amazingly
oversimple. Jack and Neal certainly were not exclusively heterosexual,
but they were clearly principally straight men who had a great
friendship. That does happen. Not all American buddy stories have to
be seen as repressed faggotry. And Vidal, as you note, is a terrible
witness anyway. I am suprised he hasn't claimed to have slept with any
now dead popes. It would suit his style.
I disagree with my friend David that this shouldn't be of interest to
us, mostly because the principals made a point of being public with
their behavior.
Mike Rice wrote:
These guys, Kerouac, Cassady
> and Ginsburg, were all gay. The reason it is so difficult for a lot of
> people to believe that is because On The Road is such a romantic novel.
> Read it again and you will find the strongest thread in it is the
> relationship between Dean (Cassady) and Sal (Jack). Read it again, its
> a love story about these two. Noone knew that except the insiders in
> 1957 when OTR was published.
>
> Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:24:23 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: New Styles
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>yep, I see you've met God too. Well, don't let it ruin yer day. That's my
>advice. Have you been motivated to produce any other types of experiments
>(as a result)?? Especially, <<ahem>> as they would relate to Burroughs,
>Kerouac, or Ginsberg?
>
>dimple pox
Mr. Pox,
I'm always experimenting but nothing new has arisen from this incident
(it's only served to reinforce my notion of how narrow-minded so many "gods"
are).
I'm currently editing / rewriting a novel that's probably the most
conventional (anti-postmodern) piece that I've written. It has some beat
related themes and elements: a lot of Burroughs-like, organic metaphors, a
Kerouac-Cassady type relationship, a frantic, permadrunk race for peace,
etc... I think this will be the manuscript that I'll start sending out once
I've made a bit more progress. The few professors that I've shown it to
have encouraged me to. I, of course, have my reservations; I just wish I
knew when the plane leaves.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:38:27 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Jack's Sexuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hello List!
Recently there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality. The
bulk of it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's
irrelevant (what his sexuality was). I am glad that a discussion on his
sexuality has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing aspect
of Jack Kerouac to me. I think that if you look at Jack from the
'beloved Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he was
gay or not, he was a great writer." But I REALLY think there's more to
it. You just can't say that. In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the very
catalist for everything. No book makes it as clear as DESOLATION ANGELS
(which I have to say is my favorite JK novel). Read sections about when
Allen and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San Fran
and how paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual. The
sexuality and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack
apart. It was almost like he could never be true to himself. His strong
catholic upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith. In his
heart, I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to his
family he had to remain catholic. Jack as a beat didn't care if he was
gay or straight or whatever because it didn't matter. Love and Kicks
mattered but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he
couldn't let himself go. Just from reading Kerouac, it always seemed
like he was trying to live a lie. That's a pretty strong statement, I
know. He's one of my heros but it's true. He could never have both
worlds and the anxiety it caused killed him. Someone said something
about Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at
the same time and I couldn't have said it better myself. Jack tried to
run from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going for
him. If he didn't have that conflict, he was nothing. I believe he knew
that. Just like with Neal. Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it
seems the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving
giving, but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.
ON THE ROAD is a romance! It's a story of unrequited love. Neal may
have been Jack's hero, but he was a dick. Plain and simple. My best
friend is the same way. I love him, but he is a dick. He's a dick to me
and just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'. Jack
couldn't give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.
Thanks.
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:42:51 -0600
Reply-To: Manny <manny@HOME.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Manny <manny@HOME.NET>
Subject: Just seeing if this works right =)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello list...
So far I'm enjoying the variety of topics discussed. =)
I'm just now seeing if my mail is working properly. Thank you.
Amanda
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 23:24:27 -0700
Reply-To: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner711 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: New Styles
In-Reply-To: <199707190524.WAA17744@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:24 PM -0700 7/18/97, James William Marshall wrote:
> I, of course, have my reservations; I just wish I
> knew when the plane leaves.
found this in the bathroom tonight <<ahem>>:
>>
Of his work he said: "I am not so much interested in documentation,
but would like to use the means of the steadily expanding language of my
medium to express my impressions of the individual." (Arnold Newman)
>>
kinda nice, huh? Fits in nice with the joyce, girlfriend, surface, and
drug art issues I've been dealing with. And besides, if you miss the plane
-- take the train. of <<ahem>> the train of thawout.
>
> James M.
= junior mint
demi pairs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 02:34:14 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970719100300.006b3c00@light.iinet.net.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Rastous The Reviewer wrote:
> I'm trying to find a review of KJD that isn't by one of the big music
> sites/record companies... can anyone help?
>
At the University of Virginia, there's an online copy of the recent issue
of the Journal of Post-Modernism or Post-Modern Studies or something like
that. I believe it was someone who's on the list (can't remember who but
I know this is where I heard about it) did a fairly good review of the CD.
Go to the American Studies site. The direct url (unless its
changed-current issues stay up only til it gets printed) is
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 01:29:08 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: female (patti smith)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
the title of the poem is "FEMALE" and is on page 44 of SEVENTH HEAVEN. it
begins with a quote from GENET: "To escape from horror bury yourself in it."
female. feel male. Ever since I felt the need to
choose I'd choose male. I felt boy rythums when I
was in knee pants. So I stayed in pants.
I sobbed when I had to use the public ladies
room. My undergarments made me blush.
Every feminine gesture I affected from my mother
humiliated me.
I ran around with a pack of wolves. I puked on every
pinafore. Growing breasts was a nightmare. In agner
I cut off my hair and knelt glassy eyed before
god. I begged him to place me in my own barbaric race.
The male race. The race of my choice.
In answer he injected me with all the characteristics
of my gender. sultry. languid. wanton. dip into
summer skirts. go down with a narrow hipped boy
behind a bowling alley. bleed. come. fill my womb.
the misfit massacres the mustang pony just to feel
the soft rise of marilyn monroe against his chest.
bloated. pregnant. I crawl thru the sand. like a
lame dog. like a crab. pull my fat baby belly to
the sea. pure edge. pull my hair out by the roots.
roll and drag and claw like a bitch. like a bitch.
like a bitch.
67.april copyright patti smith
-=-=-=-
props to phillip who typed all of this
cribbed from the patti-smith list
And yeah, who hasn't sucked some dick?
dickless
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:38:39 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: An Illiterate Impression of Visions of Cody
In-Reply-To: <33D03C10.234F@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 21.01 18/07/97 -0700, James Stauffer writes:
[i snip for brevity]
> And Vidal, as you note, is a terrible
>witness anyway. I am suprised he hasn't claimed to have slept with any
>now dead popes. It would suit his style.
>...
james & amici beati,
last night, Vidal interviewed by domestic italian TV Rai Corporation
in Rome, about sexuality & arts & artists, asserted that's right alot
of artists (included writers ie. Proust) are/was not eterosex,
but this is have nothing to do with creativity, Vidal asserted
"sex is not related with creativity but anyone has a feminine-self",
he was moderate & amiable, (however not iconoclast),
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:04:36 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Jack's Sexuality
Comments: To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Chris Dumond wrote:
>
> Hello List!
>
> Recently there's been a lot of discussion about Jack's sexuality. The
> bulk of it seems to be speculation, but a few have posted that it's
> irrelevant (what his sexuality was). I am glad that a discussion on
> his
> sexuality has been brought up as it is the single most intriguing
> aspect
> of Jack Kerouac to me. I think that if you look at Jack from the
> 'beloved Jack' POV then you're gonna say, "Aw, hell, who cares if he
> was
> gay or not, he was a great writer." But I REALLY think there's more
> to
> it. You just can't say that. In my eyes, Jack's sexuality was the
> very
> catalist for everything. No book makes it as clear as DESOLATION
> ANGELS
> (which I have to say is my favorite JK novel). Read sections about
> when
> Allen and he were walking through the streets of MExico City and San
> Fran
> and how paranoid he was to be publically thought of as a homosexual.
> The
> sexuality and religion were THE two factors in his life that tore Jack
> apart. It was almost like he could never be true to himself. His
> strong
> catholic upbringing forbidded him from embracing eastern faith. In
> his
> heart, I believe that Jack as a "BEAT" was a zen or whatever, but to
> his
> family he had to remain catholic. Jack as a beat didn't care if he
> was
> gay or straight or whatever because it didn't matter. Love and Kicks
> mattered but to his mother and to his incredibly strong conscience, he
> couldn't let himself go. Just from reading Kerouac, it always seemed
> like he was trying to live a lie. That's a pretty strong statement, I
> know. He's one of my heros but it's true. He could never have both
> worlds and the anxiety it caused killed him. Someone said something
> about Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at
> the same time and I couldn't have said it better myself. Jack tried
> to
> run from his upbringing when running was the only thing he had going
> for
> him. If he didn't have that conflict, he was nothing. I believe he
> knew
> that. Just like with Neal. Neal was kindof an abusive friend and it
> seems the street was one-way most of the time as in Jack giving giving
> giving, but the conflict was a great source of energy and inspiration.
> ON THE ROAD is a romance! It's a story of unrequited love. Neal may
> have been Jack's hero, but he was a dick. Plain and simple. My best
> friend is the same way. I love him, but he is a dick. He's a dick to
> me
> and just as in the end of OTR, sometimes you have to say 'enough'.
> Jack
> couldn't give up the struggle with sex and religion that easily.
>
> Thanks.
> Chris
Chris:
This may draw down howls upon my head, but there is something about male
nature that leads to these relationships. The stereotypes are:
A woman will not maintain a relationship with a woman who "betrays" her.
A man will have a "fight" with the asshole, they then go drink a beer,
and end up better friends than before.
A woman, on the other hand, will put up with tons of crap from a man,
that she would never tolerate from another woman, because she knows she
can change him.
A man, will say outwardly that a woman is free to act as she cares, but
if she treats him poorly like his male friend did, he will never forgive
her, when he would his friend. Further, he will become emotionally
cruel to her.
These are double standards that run through the sexes. I do not intend
them to be RULES, just generalities that are the tendencies of behavior
by the two sexes. I do not place a value on them and say one is better
than the other. Just that the basic approach is different.
Last night I arrived home from work exhausted. My wife came to me while
I was eating and reading the newspaper and wanted to talk. Later when I
was rested, I sought her out to apologize and make myself available.
She would not listen and said everything had to be on MY TERMS. I tried
to point out to her that perhaps she could pick a better time than
interrupting my meal and when she knew I was tired.
We did not communicate. Funny in a way.
Peace
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 14:47:39 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: JK Sexuality/Sexism
Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33D0D784.F9A8F732@scsn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Actually, maybe Jack was always homosexual and spent his life denying
it. This would explain his attitudes and actions throughout his life
towards women. Which is to say that, bluntly speaking, Jack Kerouac was
as sexist as they come. He had little use for women other than sleeping
with them.
Even though some of his best works were about women he was in love with
(i.e. Subterraneans, Maggie Cassidy) he basically ran from every
relationshiop he ever had with a female other than his mother, and later
his "surrogate mother" (last wife stella) He left one of his wives to
raise a child, whom he knew full well was his daughter, in poverty.
Psychologically I dont think Jack could accept either long term
relationships with females or parenthood. If he was really a repressed
homosexual, this would explain some of these attitudes.
I think Jack's sexist nature prevented him from being able to bond with
females the way he did with males. He could live with women and have sex
with them, but it seems like he was incapable of having true intellectual
relationships with women. His "intellectual" affairs were with Allen
Ginsberg, Neal Cassady, Lucien Carr .etc Jack did, however, maintain a
long correspondence relationship with Carolyn Cassady...I've read they
were in contact long after Jack and Neal's friendship had ended.
It is ironic actually therefore that Jack Kerouac's work, the beat ethic and
the idea of "experiencing" life without regard to societal opinions or
barriers, has been an inspiration to generations of female writers. In
Jack's lifetime, he was repressed for wanting to be his own person in
much the same way women were repressed for years from trying to have
their own lives.
Not only was Jack's daughter Jan a writer, but his first biographer and
cataloguer of his works was the author Ann Charters. There are many many
female writers who took up pen because of Jack Kerouac. Perhaps he was a
feminist and just never realized it?
Richard W.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 00:44:30 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Thanks and Questions
Comments: To: dv8@mail.netshop.net
In a message dated 97-07-19 10:59:47 EDT, you write:
<< Remember Lusha? Anyway, my final question
stemming from Mr. Gargan's polite and righteous comment (seriously, no
sarcasm) is: Aren't examples of techniques used by the beats relevant to
this list. I know that reading other people's writing on this list is one
of the things that I like most about it. There are no groups of writers,
influenced by the beats, who are willing to share their souls like I've
found on this list anywhere else. I hope that no one feels afraid to offer
a glimpse of their style(s) every once and/in awhile.
>>
Where's her writing?
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 03:43:41 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism
reply to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use
for women" other than sex:
i don't believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist. i think that jack
was in love with the human race. he loved people, no matter what gender. i
do think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,
but he just found it easier to relate intellectually to men. this does not
mean he was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides
carolyn) or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression. for some
reason, he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female
relationships, but i don't think this makes him homosexual. i think, if
anything, he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his
love was universal and had no gender limits.
sing
dance
be merry,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 09:21:00 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Seeking an independent review of "Kicks joy darkness"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Alex,
Thanks very much Alex for pointing me/us to Robert Fox's review at
the University of Virginia of "kicks joy darkness". I recommend it to anyone
with an interest in the Beats / music / spoken word. Anyone who can bring up
"Jazz Canto" in passing has got my vote! Address below for those who haven't
been there yet.
http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/pmc/current.issue/review-5.597.html.
An interesting cyber-journal for several reasons. Check their index
of other articles.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:44:20 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: I give up on VOC
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Well, I have stuck with VOC as long as I could. I got past the football
game and into the meeting of the girls at the house. But, I just do not
have it in my heart to continue. I am going to pick up Portrait of an
Artist as a Young Man and read Joyce for a while.
A couple of notes. On the tapes. What would it sound like if someone
recorded your (mine) conversations and transcribed them? I can think of
very few that I would want to see in print. So in reading that portion
of the book, you have to let reality creep in and dispel your
expectations.
Second, I picked up in my local library a book by Warren French, The San
Francisco Poetry Renaissance 1955-1960. I have no idea on the quality
of the book. But in the Forward, the author makes some comments that
harken back to our past discussion of Eliot, Ginsberg and Whitman:
" It should be apparent that I agree with the early (1957) judgment of
William Hogan ... that HOWL was the "most significant long poem to be
published in this country since World War II." It is taking its place
beside Walt Whitman's closely related "Song of Myself," which reached
the public first exactly a century earlier (1855), and T.S. Eliot's The
Waste Land, which though antipodal in many respects shares Ginsberg's
view of the tragic consequences of a materialistic, mechanized,
depersonalized culture and his hopes of transcending it.
" Nothing else that the beats--of any poets since -- have written
matches Ginsberg's inspirational breakthrough, but like Leaves of Grass
and The Waste Land, Howl is not a monument that stands in splendid
isolation. It generated the ferment that followed--the San Francisco
Poetry Renaissance--and it is to tell that story, which has often been
lost or ignored, that I have written this book."
I know nothing of the book or the author, but it seems to sum up what I
had read this list trying to say, and that is how Whitman, Eliot and
Ginsberg fit together and it seems to me that a possible conclusion is
that these three are the giants upon which true American poetry rests
for now.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:18:55 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Beat the NEA
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bay Area Beat-L folks should check today's Sunday Examiner with an
excellent article on defunding the NEA by filmaker Bruce Conner. It
doesn't yet appear on the Gate web page so I'll post the entire thing
tomorrow when it appears. In essence Conner's stance echoes C.
Plymell's.
"I have a modes proposal. The federal government should get out of the
arts entirely. Go further than simply dropping an unpopular NEA. No
more funding for public monuments, no more presidential portraits, no
more glamorous embellisment of the abattoirs of government . . .These
are invigorating times now that art has again been deemed dangerous and
the false art market boom of the 1980's, patterned after the classic
Pyramid Scheme Fraud, has cleared out a lot of the money-changers. Art
is no longer a protected national park where artists can make a mess and
call the patrons dirty names while still expecting to be warmly
supported like difficult children that need more love than anyone can
give. . .
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:46 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Bay Area Beat-L Party
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Suggestions have been floated regarding a get together for SF Bay Area
Beat-L folks.
I am willing to volunteer my humble pad for such a party or listen to
suggestions for a public venue. I know you're out there folks, Leon,
Sherri, Lisa, Attilla (if he's back), Jerry Cimino (if he's still
listening) and others whose locale I don't know or who have eluded my
beclouded Sunday morning brain.
Anyone interested please backchannel me. Out of the area folks who
might be in SF in August let me know. A public venue would work, but
someone's place, with a plugged in computer would allow cyberjamming in
the mode of the Plymell/Wilson reunion or the Lawrence Beat Hotel posts.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:06:24 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Warren French's book
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Well, while it is not well written, but then again I am not sure you can
have a heavily edited and coherent text describing poetry in SF from
1955-60 in 112 pages, I like this book. French did his homework and a
substantial amount of it. He is very sympathetic to the Beat poets, but
does not overtly take their side.
BTW, French retired from Indiana University in 1986. He contributed
books on J.D. Salinger (1988) and Kerouac (1986) to the Twayne's United
States Authors Series. When this book was published, 1991, he was
working on a 2 volume critical biography of John Steinbeck.
Anyway, he brought out a point that I believe, at least partially ties
back to the discussion on Eliot. On page 39 he is discussing an article
JK wrote for The Chicago Review called "The Origions of Joy in Poetry"
and says that Jack, "saw the renaissance works as street poetry also,
but he emphasized their being 'a kind of new-old Zen Lunacy poetry ...
diametrically opposed to the Eliot shot.' Both these commentators
(Ferlinghetti and Kerouac) championed populist views of poetry; but the
difference between them [James, I feel you reading this with an
approving eye] suggests one reason why Ferlinghetti held himself as a
poet somewhat apart from the beats he sponsered. His (Ferlinghetti's)
was essentially a sociopolitical view of poetry that emphasized the
words of the song, while Kerouac's introspective view focused on the
singer (he admitted, for example, that 'in spite of the dry rules
[Eliot] set down his poetry itself is sublime'). The prevalence of
Kerouac's view among other poets and young audiences is one reason the
beats, like the fauves, never became an organized movement seeking to
displace an Establishment and instead remained a group of outsiders
transiently banded together."
I feel this paragraph highlites several points. One, is the difference
between Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg. He did not
write from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.
He is the lyrics only. They are the singer.
Second, is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,
the RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is
sublime. I have begun rereading The Waste Land. If I have a comment,
it will come later. But, don't get lost in critizing Eliot for what he
stood for, his poetry is sublime.
Third, the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they
displace the establishment. They may have penetrated the fortress based
upon sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel. It remains in
place today.
A good, but scholarly book. I will make one more post on some comments
he had earlier in the book. Sorry if I am doing your homework for you.
Charles, I hope you do not disapprove!
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:18:27 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Good beginning
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The beginning of the book on the SF Poetry Renaissance begins with some
good analogies. The parallels are drawn to the Fauvist painters and
uses Kerouac and Matisse on page 4.
"... Matisse quitting the 'frustrating atmosphere' of Adolphe
Bougureau's class... . Exactly fifty years later, Kerouac quit the
hothouse life of coach Lou Little's Columbia University football team
when he realized he wanted to be Beethoven instead of an athlete. In
1898, Matisse was asked to leave Moreau's old studio ... . A
half-century later, in 1948, Kerouac after completing a traditional
family historical romance influenced by the work of Thomas Wolfe, took
his first cross-country trip with Neal Cassady, which inspired him to
begin work on an entirely new kind of spontaneous prose: the first
versions of the novel that would subsequently be published as On The
Road and that would take its final form in Visions of Cody."
I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here
has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works. It is interesting to see
it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME
book.
The second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting. This analysis
may not be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the
earlier and more thorough reading I gave the book. Here French ties the
whole of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild
Beasts."
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:43:34 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Good beginning
In-Reply-To: <33D2C6F3.6D78E417@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 7:18 PM -0700 7/20/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> The second is my insistance that VoC is a word painting. This analysis
> may not be original, but I only saw it on this reading and not the
> earlier and more thorough reading I gave the book. Here French ties the
> whole of the Beat poetry to a painting movement as they are both "Wild
> Beasts."
"word painting" interesting.
Matisse was the old man of the fauve movement, wasn't he. Fauve, 'wild
beasts' being the pejoritive label for a bunch of artists concerned with
outrageous color. somewhat post-impressionism, post-seurat, right?
Matisse went on to develop color throughout his life. Always apposed to
Picasso who was associated with "form". Matisse is well know for his
patterns as well. A quote of his always sticks in my craw, that he wanted
to make art while siting in a chair, looking out a window. A somewhat
passive happenstance, approach, I've always thought.
and later in life, Matisse, from bed/wheelchair, made some f'in fantastic
cutout works of art. he began with store bought paper, then progress along
to ordering papers of certain colors and having his assistants help him cut
out the shapes. Icarus (1947?) is one of my favorite paintings.
"word painting" interesting.
>
> Peace,
> --
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
>
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:46:19 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: I'm back ...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Seems pretty quiet around here ...
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
| |
| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
| -- Jack Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:10:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: I'm back ...
Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Levi Asher wrote:
>
> Seems pretty quiet around here ...
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
> | |
> | Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
> | (3 years old and still running) |
> | |
> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
> | (a real book, like on paper) |
> | also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
> | |
> | *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
> | |
> | "It was my dream that screwed up" |
> | -- Jack Kerouac |
> ------------------------------------------------------
Levi:
Glad to see you are back. I was enjoying your comments when you left.
It seems to be TOO quite at the moment. I am thinking that one of the
screwups last week still has email jammed up out there somewhere.
And I did get your site linked to a new page that I put up. Sometime in
the near future, I am going to post a picture I took of Hal Norse. I
want to clear it with Hal first.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:27:17 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Good beginning
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody here
> has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works. It is interesting to see
> it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the SAME
> book.
That goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:
"But then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for
almost a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he
had tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.
He'd tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his
sentences and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he
decided to write another book, which has never been published [this was
in 1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with the
same main characters in about five hundred pages. But called Visions of
Cody, meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence, as
a recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments. Visionary
moments being the structure of the novel--in other words each section or
chapter being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter where
it fell in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the
specific physical description of what was happening..."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:30:23 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Good beginning
Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> > I quote this for two reasons, one is that the discussion of Cody
> here
> > has tied back to OTR and other Kerouac works. It is interesting to
> see
> > it tied historically and to see OTR and VOC tied together as the
> SAME
> > book.
>
> That goes back to what Ginsberg said in Allen Verbatum:
>
> "But then Kerouac finished the book [OTR], which was not published for
> almost a decade after it was finished, and was dissatisfied because he
> had tied his mind down to fixing it in strictly chronological account.
> He'd tied his mind down to chronology and so he was always halting his
> sentences and stopping to go back to keep it chronological...So he
> decided to write another book, which has never been published [this
> was
> in 1971], his greatest book, called Visions of Cody, which deals with
> the
> same main characters in about five hundred pages. But called Visions
> of
> Cody, meaning instead of doing it chronologically, do it in sequence,
> as
> a recollection of the most beautiful, epiphanous moments. Visionary
> moments being the structure of the novel--in other words each section
> or
> chapter being a specific epiphanous heartrending moment no matter
> where
> it fell in time, and then going to the center of that moment, the
> specific physical description of what was happening..."
> DC
Diane:
You BEAT me to the idea that was festering in my mind. In response to
Douglas' post about the painting aspect, I was going to post and say
that I believed that this is the essence of the book and what drove
Allen to get it published. The fact that Allen saw and knew why and
what Jack wrote. I find that I love finding the nuggets like Jack
talking about memories and Proust, but on the whole, it is a hard read
when I am doing it for an exercise.
The fact that I broke the spine and wore out the book on its first
reading testifies to the fashion in which I read it on first sitting.
Thanks for this post and the point, which I believe ties back to the
Impressionistic painting thought I have. Allen saw this and that is why
he called it Jack's greatest work. I find it more like Web and the Rock
and You Can't Go Home Again, an unfinished work. I still feel that to
me, Dharma Bums is the best.
BUT, this is the most dangerous and adventuresome work.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:47:17 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Warren French's book
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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> I feel this paragraph highlites several points. One, is the difference
> between Ferlinghetti and those such as Kerouac and Ginsburg. He did
> not
> write from the same place in his heart that Kerouac and Ginsburg did.
> He is the lyrics only. They are the singer.
>
> Second, is that despite the items that some on this list complained of,
> the RULES of Eliot's poetry, Kerouac recognized that the work itself is
> sublime. I have begun rereading The Waste Land. If I have a comment,
> it will come later. But, don't get lost in critizing Eliot for what he
> stood for, his poetry is sublime.
I won't try to refute the point that Eliot's poetry is sublime. Only to
point out that his more formal, rigid, views of art and poetry are in the
traditional sphere, and very much the kind of things beat writers
rebelled against as establishment. Ginsberg can even be described as
sublime is some poems but overall it is the sublime cracked against the
hard reality of life.
> Third, the true Beats never became an organized movement nor did they
> displace the establishment. They may have penetrated the fortress >
> based
> upon sheer brilliance, but did not topple the citadel. It remains in
> place today.
>
I disagree that the beats never became an organized movement.
Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs all formed the foundation of a new
direction in literature. They never displaced establishment because the
very essence of beat writing is going beyond the fringes of what can be
called establishment. The beats are/were always on the outside looking
in and convincing us that what was inside was not that true or great. I
would also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this list
are there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered
normal by traditionalist views of literature and society. The beats may
not have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be heard
to those who are willing to listen.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:54:23 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Warren French's book
Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Diane Carter wrote:
<snip>
> I
> would also venture a guess that most of the writers/members on this
> list
> are there because they also stand on the fringes of what is considered
> normal by traditionalist views of literature and society. The beats
> may
> not have toppled society but they gave a voice which will always be
> heard
> to those who are willing to listen.
> DC
Diane:
Sometimes I feel that being a lawyer puts me on the fringes of the
traditional world and on this one too. It is weird being a lawyer and
maintaining the point of view I do.
Last night there was a neighborhood party here. I found about 6 of the
100 or so people that I could relate to. About 40 or so were "yuppies"
in all the worst sense of the word. About 40 were of the 1950's point
of view and the other 20 or so seemed interesting, but I could only talk
to about 6. There was a time when I wanted approval and would have
desired to "fit" in, but now that I have had to "grow up" some, I was
content to watch and it occured to me, that I would rather be from the
50's mind set than the Yuppies. At least the 50's type people feel
secure in their selfs and the world, even though very reactionary. The
Yuppies have no sense of self.
And I feel further on the fringes than ever before in my life. But, I
wouldn't want to be any other place!
Good thoughts here. I think you are on the east coast, so let's both
get some sleep. :-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:50:54 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART I
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7/8/97: LUTHER ALLISON / INTRODUCTION / INTERVIEW
INTRODUCTION:
For those of you good folks that are interested in exploring the blues
without turning in your rock collection, I am happy to say, that doing
so would be unnecessary. Luther Allison will satisfy your "rock fix" and
at the same time give you a heavy dose of the blues. I first met Luther
in the early '70's, on a stretch of railroad tracks separating Lake
Monona from the bay=97or smaller lake, in Madison, Wisconsin. A nice plac=
e
to catch "sunnies" and have long conversations with or without the fish.
For me, I can honestly say, that Luther Allison was a lifesaver. Here
was a man=97with a legendary background in the blues, playing and working
steady. I was playing Delta blues, and there wasn't much work for an
acoustic player=97nor the blues in general. The '70's was a hard decade
for working bluesmen and women alike. Luther was one of the few people
working steady. What followed was an education from watching this master
on a live set. I noticed early on that Luther could cross-over
boundaries and rock the house, and bring you back to "Planet Earth" if
that's what you wanted. His genius for reading an audience was=97and
is=97unsurpassed. From Luther, I learned to hone my craft and take chance=
s
by adding new licks. I even went as far as studying classical guitar and
jazz methods; incorporating them into the blues. But alas, the '70's
decade came to an end with Luther relocating to Europe, eventually
choosing St. Cloud, France, near Paris, as home base. His fans
worldwide are a living testament to one of the biggest guns in the
blues: Mr. Luther Allison. It was during a brief tour in '94, that the
rumors of a "return" surfaced and that he was going to sign with the
prestigious Alligator Records=97one of the best labels in the world for m=
y
money and my personal favorite. Well, the rest is history. With the
release of "Soul Fixin' Man" in 1994, it became apparent; the man was
back and riding the wave. His appearance at the 1995, Chicago Blues
Festival, was one of the most powerful moments in blues history, when he
stepped out on the stage in front of a stagnating count of
thousands=97hundreds of thousands of cheering fans, I looked over at my
wife and said, quote: "It looks like Luther's boat has landed, or is it
a ship?" We agreed on "Ocean Liner." With the release of "Blue Streak"
that same year he took home five W.C. Handy Awards, ten Living Blues
Awards, and a 1995 Indie Award. And with the release of his latest from
Alligator: "Reckless"=97a must have disc, that is beyond words; all I can
say is this: The man is unstoppable.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:57:56 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART 2
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7/9/97: LUTHER ALLISON / OUESTIONS / INTERVIEW
QUESTIONS:
1. Well Luther, the verdict is in=97I'm casting my ballot for "Best
Everything In The Blues"=97 if there's such a category=97 on "Reckless."
Man, you got to be happy with this; your latest from Alligator?=20
LUTHER: "Man, I feel great=97and it's doing great. Everything started
with "Soul Fixin'. I knew I had to do something big=97you know how the
business works, if I was going to make a Luther Allison statement, I
knew I had to come up with something that people would take notice, too.
With the release of "Blue Streak" I felt that my time had come.
RICHARD: I was left speechless with each new release=97and Luther my
friend, you have arrived=97but hell, for me you were always on top. And
with "Reckless"=97 well, I can't see anybody coming close to topping that
one=97it's beautiful.
=20
2. I know that you have a variety of guitars to choose from, but I
couldn't help but notice the "Gibson, Les Paul" on the cover of
"Reckless." Outside the duet "Playin' A losing Game"=97which incidentally=
,
was absolutely beautiful, did you record most of the other cuts on the
"Les Paul?" (Man, they have that certain sound=97real nice)
LUTHER: No. I bought an original "Les Paul" in my neighborhood back in
Paris, from a shop=97one of many shops in the area. The guy that sold it
to me didn't tell me it had a broken neck. So I was pretty damn steamed
and took it back=97everybody in the neighborhood knew that it had a bad
neck. I told him how could you do this to me? Well, he said, what can I
do to make it up to you. And I said, you can go across the street and
buy me that 1960 reissue "Les Paul." Two weeks later, I got the Les from
him=97now that's a blues story!
RICHARD: And you tore-up the 1995 Chicago Blues Fest=97with Mr. Les!=20
Man, that's some story=97that's what the blues is about. Sometimes, I
think it's all connected into one gigantic story=97and it's all those
real-life moments that make the blues a happening thing.
3. Luther, in all honesty, I have never heard you sound more soulful
and on these cuts=97without sounding like a beer commercial=97I have too
say, "it doesn't get much better than this=97where do you go from here/or
what's next?
LUTHER: Keep moving forward=97workin' and playin' so I can get some time
to hang with you and all my fishing buddies. Do you remember when I'd
drive to gigs with my pole, tackle, and bucket a worms; just in case I
passed by a lake on the way to a gig?
RICHARD: Man, do I ever remember. I used to love driving to a gig and
always carried my fishin' stuff=97sometimes I'd forget the gig and all
hell would break loose! I only screwed-up a couple of times because the
fish were bitin'!
4. I would love to see a Luther Allison, solo unplugged session
someday, and I'm willing to bet it would be a winner. Have you ever
considered doing a project like that? (recording)
LUTHER: Well, I've already done that. Did a CD back in Paris called:
"Hand Me Down My Moonshine" which has nothing to do with booze. It's
about the man in the moon. I assembled some guys and a real cool harp
player from the neighborhood. My son Bernard played a real bitchin'
slide=97sounded great!
RICHARD: Man, now I got to hit Paris and find that CD. Here's a harp
story for you. When I was a kid living in Mpls and trying to be a real
"Bluesman," I'd get about fourteen dollars together and take the train
to Chicago. Eventually, make my way down to Maxwell Street=97hoping to se=
e
my heroes. So here comes Jr. Wells wearing a suit and real cool Fedora=97=
a
regular Al Capone hat. Hell, man I wanted to look just like Jr. Here I
am, about 16 yrs old=97all decked out and I jump in front of Jr., and say=
,
"Mr. Wells, could you please show me a few licks on my harp?" He looks
at me real funny and says, "All I can Tell you is stick the harp in your
mouth and blow"=97and then he laughed like hell.=20
LUTHER: (laughing) "You tell Jr. the next time you see him that he
still owes me a lesson!"
5. I have to praise your son, Bernard, whom I'd love to meet. To write
a song like: "Low Down And Dirty," and to hear him play and sing with
you on: "Playin' A Losing Game" convinced me, that here's a
bluesman=97something you don't see in the young very often=97you got to b=
e
one proud father?
LUTHER: Oh man! I'm definitely proud. He's got all the stuff he needs
to make it all happen. On the duet, I played a Martin acoustic and he
played another hand-made acoustic that sounds real nice.
RICHARD: I'm telling you, he knows his blues and has the necessary
soul=97man alive! How old is he?
LUTHER: He was born in '65, and that would make him 32 yrs old.
6. Are you seeing interest in learning more about the blues these days
with the younger kids=97especially in the black community=97(it's such a
rich heritage)?
LUTHER: Well right now the blues is taking off and it feels real
good=97so the interest is there for anyone who wants to check it out.
RICHARD: When I was a kid, I got my hands on an AM Transistor radio and
late at night I'd tune in a station: KAAY from Little Rock, Arkansas.
They had a late night show called (I think) Bleeker Street=97that's where
I first heard the greats like Elmore James, Freddie King, and of course
Muddy Waters (man, I wanted to be just like those guys). You were born
and raised in Arkansas, like Sonny Boy Williamson=97did you ever come int=
o
contact with some of the great bluesmen from the area?
LUTHER: Yes=97definitely. When our family moved to Chicago, in 1951, you
couldn't help but come into contact with bluesmen=97I went to High School
for awhile with Muddy Waters son, and I'd hang at their house. My school
was/and is the blues.
RICHARD: Well my friend, If I was president of some college, I'd give
you a "DOCTORATE OF BLUESOLOGY."=20
7. One last question: any secret fishing spots you want to share?
(Much laughter)
LUTHER: I think I'll pass on that one.
RICHARD: Luther, after all these years, I finally caught up with you
and I'm damn happy that you're back=97and I mean back in more ways than
one!
=20
END / INTERVIEW.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:16:31 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART 2
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Richard,
Thanks for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.
Anyone who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some
small halls or before he goes back to Europe. The CD's are great but
he's way better live. Probably the best guitar player I have every
heard live. Period.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:20:54 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Charles, James, Bentz, & Beat-L,
The interview with Luther Allison took place on 7/9/97. For me,
it was a real joy when Pulse Magazine asked me to do the interview.
Luther is an old friend and we go back about 20 or more years. On
7/11/97, he played in Mpls about 20 minutes from my place. We hadn't
seen each other in years, and for me, this was a very special time.
On the following Monday, the 14th, Alligator Records called and
informed me that Luther had canceled his world tour, and was
hospitalized in Madison, WI with inoperable brain cancer that had
spread from the lungs. He's hanging on and hoping for a remission
so he can finish his tour for the fans. And that's the Luther I know
and love--simply unstoppable.
Peace,
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:44:10 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "(Jerry Cimino)" <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm back ...
Hi Levi, et al...
I'm back too... been gone for a while on business and then I caught a few
posts on a VoC thread and then server problems apparently knocked me off.
Looks like the Beat-L is roaring along, though. Will join in again soon.
Jerry Cimino
www.kerouac.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: What NEXT?
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Good Morning,
It seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly
well. My question is that as people draw to a close with Cody, should
we jump into another book. It seemed like a pretty good kind of thread
to have going.
In the event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?
Some had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.
Others suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'
works (suggestions there seem to vary as to which one). There was more
talk of a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).
Since I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read
something as far away from Ulysses as possible. BUT - I'm not certain
which one that would be.
At any rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread
created might push to list towards having one thread going around a book
much of the time. It seems that there are plenty of books out there.
It also seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading
doesn't hurt a person too much.
This morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after
much time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person
has referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as "suffering from
general paralysis of the insane." These days we have more complicated
diagnostic procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at
digging into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all
about.
Stephen would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for
certain.
Glad to have people coming back. Glad to have people who've stayed so
long and people who have joined in between. What am i rambling about
... a word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning
before having coffee.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:28:43 +0900
Reply-To: rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Versace's death & Drag Queens.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Isn't it nice that when something nasty happens... it's a drag queen who
gets the blame.
Well, bugger that.
The arsehole who whacked Versace was a complete prick - a taste for my
frocks doesn't make him a queen... murdering prick. Queen, no.
Anyone who knows where he is, call your local crime department officials -
look up your local white/yellow pages for details.
I miss my favourite designer,
Ms Alisha
Terry Pratchett in RealAudio - 1330 GMT, July 25th, Thanks to Liquid Review
& 5UV
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm
For further information, and examples of my work, check out Liquid Review at:
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/index.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:02:07 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: THE BLUES NEVER DIE PART 2
Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
James Stauffer wrote:
> Richard,
>
> Thanks for posting the Luther Allison article and interview.
>
> Anyone who likes blues should catch him while he's still playing some
> small halls or before he goes back to Europe. The CD's are great but
> he's way better live. Probably the best guitar player I have every
> heard live. Period.
>
> James Stauffer
James:
On the Jimi Hendrix list someone has posted information indicating that
Luther Allison has been diagnosed with a life threatening disease.
They have posted an address for money to be sent to help Luther as his
insurance will not cover the treatment. (I say he should send the bill
to the members of congress, the insurance industry and the AMA who claim
we don't need any form of National Health Care). I will try to dig up
that information and post it if I can find it.
Take care,
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:07:42 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism
i couldn't agree with Jenn's last line more.
i originally had mixed feelings regarding how JK looked at and felt about
women. oddly, though, i've never been able to convince myself he was sexist.
rather, i think the totally mixed up relationship with his mother and his
Catholic upbringing brought him to a place where his expectations of women
were unrealistic and that there was a bit of the Madonna atmosphere about
women for him.
On the "kicks joy darkness" cd an unpublished piece, sort of a short essay,
called "America's New Trinity of Love: Dean, Brando, Presley" gives us a clue
that he had at least given thought to women's social plight at the time
(1957). He talks about how these three men represent a new kind of man whose
love is compassionate:
"Up to now the American Hero has always been on the defensive: he killed
Indians and villains and beat up his rivals and surled. He has been
good-looking but never compassionate except at odd moments and only in stock
situations. Now the new American hero, as represented by the trinity of James
Dean, Marlon Brando and Elvis Presley, is the image of compassion in itself.
And this makes him more beautiful than ever. It is as though Christ and
Buddha were about to come again with masuline love for the woman at last. All
gone are the barriers of asceticism and the barriers of ancient anti-womanism
that go deep into primitive religion...
... There is the need all around to be recognized and adored by some other
human being, the need all around for kindness, for the ideal of love which
does not exclude cruelty but is all-embracing, non-assertive, simply lovely.
Not necessarily the Dionysian orgy but the tender communion."
while i wouldn't call him a feminist, i think he was aware of the difficuties
for women at the time and that certain social mores and stigmas were unfair.
there is too much real feeling in JK for me to call him a sexist. he may have
been messed up and not good at relationships - with both genders - (and,
obviously, behaved deplorably regarding his daughter and her mother), but i
have always felt that this was as a result of his personal demons, rather than
his outlook on women per se.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Jenn Fedor
Sent: Sunday, July 20, 1997 12:43 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: JK Sexuality/Sexism
reply to rwaller's description of JK being homosexual and having "little use
for women" other than sex:
i don't believe that jack was fully homosexual or sexist. i think that jack
was in love with the human race. he loved people, no matter what gender. i
do think that he had some issues to deal with about women due to his mother,
but he just found it easier to relate intellectually to men. this does not
mean he was sexist; it just means he did not find the right women (besides
carolyn) or let himself know them due to fear, not oppression. for some
reason, he seemed to have this paranoia when it came to male/female
relationships, but i don't think this makes him homosexual. i think, if
anything, he would be defined as a bisexual emotionally, simply because his
love was universal and had no gender limits.
sing
dance
be merry,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 07:04:36 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: In regards
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My friends in Beating, (sounds like a support group or something)
I'd like to take part in the next group reading but I've got a bit of a
problem: an inability to lay hands on the books that have been mentioned as
candidates so far. This inability kept me from participating in the
_Visions of Cody_ project. I'm currently reading WSB's _The Western Lands_
(which a friend had to lend to me). Could we add this one to the list of
possibilities? I wouldn't mind reading _Naked Lunch_ again either. I think
we could get a lot of mileage out of that one.
Or Kerouac: _Visions of Gerard_, _The Subterraneans_, _The Dharma Bums_?
I have a few other Kerouac works but the ones I've listed are the only ones
I really have any interest in reading again presently.
Anyway, whatever you guys decide is cool.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:04:07 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: New thread
"Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores. How about making
this our new thread?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:07:21 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Kerouac and Women
Let's get real here. Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry
Goldwater a liberal. Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac
fell short. I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there
are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there. He certainly
wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was
usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.
He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:25:38 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: I give up on VOC
Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33D23254.E4034CF8@scsn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> A couple of notes. On the tapes. What would it sound like if someone
> recorded your (mine) conversations and transcribed them? I can think of
> very few that I would want to see in print.
I have done this. The results interested me, but in reading them I did
realize and understand that few (if any) others would hold the same interest
in reading them as a "work," ie. something that stood on its own (whatever
_that_ means) that any "Reader" could just jump in and get literarialized.
Which is why I'd asked that question earlier about fame & preconceived
notions upon approaching VOC.
I've seen a similar technique done quite well (though not nearly as lengthly
as Jack's, nor at all as personal) -- and that is in Bret Easton Ellis' _The
Rules of Attraction_. One of his less-known books, I think it's his best as
far as "literary" value. (It certainly was the one that affected _me_ the
most.) And I remember thinking, first time I read it _after_ having read
VOC, that Ellis no doubt was familiar with Kerouac and his techniques. I
think he consciously used Kerouac techniques or knowledge from observing
such in _...Attraction_, and probably did so at a lesser level in his other
works. Unlike, say, Ginsberg, Bret Easton Ellis is not exactly an accessible
figure, so it would be quite difficult to ask him.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:27:04 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
please re-read - i said i wouldn't call Kerouac a feminist. unless, i typoed
- in which case let me re-state. i wouldn't call him a feminist.
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Kerouac and Women
Let's get real here. Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry
Goldwater a liberal. Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac
fell short. I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there
are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there. He certainly
wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was
usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.
He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:43:36 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: New thread
Comments: To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997072111045396@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
bill
when does "some of the dharma" hit the streets? i am VERY excited by this
new release (isnt there another scheduled for release as well? "wake up"?
"what buddha teaches us"?) what have you thought of "some of the dharma"
so far?
yrs
derek
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> "Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores. How about making
> this our new thread?
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:04:35 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
i think i must not have gotten my point across.
i really don't think JK was sexist.
i do believe that he had personal problems with women, and relationships in
general, but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen and
not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc., which were the
prevailing opinions i grew up with.
my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some
consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's. and that he
realized that there was some unfairness for women.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Bill Gargan
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 8:07 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Kerouac and Women
Let's get real here. Calling Kerouac a feminist is like calling Barry
Goldwater a liberal. Even given gender attitudes of his time, Kerouac
fell short. I've just finished reviewing "Some of the Dharma" and there
are some disturbing misogynist tendencies revealed there. He certainly
wasn't a "sexist" in every sense.I understand, for instance, that he was
usually happy to let the women he was with pick up the tab after a date.
He was a great writer but like most human beings he had his flaws.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:13:01 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sherri,
I'm inclined toward Bill's view here. The "seen not heard" stance while
certainly one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant
voice. Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or even Ginsberg.
Jack had a very hard time seeing real women. They tend to appear as
unrealistic Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts. There is a
tendency toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal
with sometimes.
James Stauffer
Sherri wrote:
. . but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen
and
> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc., which were the
> prevailing opinions i grew up with.
>
> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some
> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's. and that he
> realized that there was some unfairness for women.
>
> ciao,
> sherri
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:21:14 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: What NEXT?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 06:14:24 -0500
> Reply-to: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
> From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
> Subject: What NEXT?
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Good Morning,
>
> It seems like the Visions of Cody reading thread is/has gone incredibly
> well. My question is that as people draw to a close with Cody, should
> we jump into another book. It seemed like a pretty good kind of thread
> to have going.
>
> In the event that we should jump into another book, what should it be?
> Some had suggested something of an Anniversary Reading of On The Road.
> Others suggested that we collectively work through one of the Burroughs'
> works (suggestions there seem to vary as to which one). There was more
> talk of a debate about Doctor Sax vs. Last of the Mohicans Shoes :).
>
> Since I'm tied up somewhat it would be much easier for me to read
> something as far away from Ulysses as possible. BUT - I'm not certain
> which one that would be.
>
> At any rate, i hope that the interest which the Visions of Cody thread
> created might push to list towards having one thread going around a book
> much of the time. It seems that there are plenty of books out there.
> It also seems that most of these books are ones in which re-reading
> doesn't hurt a person too much.
>
> This morning I dive sans life jacket into Chapter 2 of Ulysses after
> much time tinkering with Stephen and realizing that more than one person
> has referred to me as "a victims of free thought" or as "suffering from
> general paralysis of the insane." These days we have more complicated
> diagnostic procedures but i'm not certain that the names do as much at
> digging into what each person's particular chemical imbalance is all
> about.
>
> Stephen would have been pumped with Prozac after Chapter 1 that's for
> certain.
>
> Glad to have people coming back. Glad to have people who've stayed so
> long and people who have joined in between. What am i rambling about
> ... a word to the wise, never try and type a kind letter in the morning
> before having coffee.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
>
i would suggest One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest because it is a short
easy read and is just a great book. i geuss Ken KEsey would be a beat
but i always thought he was right between the line of being a beatnik
and a hippie. he still did write good. also, the main character in
OFOTCN always did remind me somewhat of Neal cassady. questions,
comments? Cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:38:27 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Eastward Journey, the end
Well I made it to the East Coast. I started from Eureka, California on June
21 with my ballet teacher and Mr. Hat. Also a yellow duck, a toy Hercules
that I found at Hoover Dam, and a copy of On The Road that my friend was
suppose to read but never did.
Last transmission was from Amarillo, Texas.
Corrected and updated information on Caddillac Ranch. It is at mile marker 64
on Route 40 (old route 66), get off at Hope Road. 203 steps from the road.
When I was there at 8 in the morning, there were 3 other cars there to see
Caddillac Ranch including a family from Germany. They were also driving cross
country (a couple with 2 kids).
>From there continued east stopping in Tyler, Texas. Looked for a used
bookstore but never found it.
Next stop was Narlens. Driving down Louisiana to catch Route 10, passed by an
sign for Tiger Gas that said they had tigers. So had to stop, and not only
did they have tigers (what the hell are tigers doing in Louisiana) but they
had two baby tigers as well. The baby cubs were 15 weeks old and chewing up a
plastic pool that they were suppose to be cooling off in.
Of course saw a bunch of dead armidillos.
Get to Narlens (ok, I'm so cool I say Narlens instead of New Orleans. So
what?) Narlens is one of my favorite cities. Got a Hotel room on Royal
Street, on block off Bourbon Street, and it was only $45 a night (with AAA
discount). Stayed there two nights. Bourbon street is three things, no four
things. Music, T shirts shops, sex shops, and Hurricanes.
Music was ok. Last year when I went I heard Brick House by the Commodores (I
actually like that song) so it was great. Lots of blues, R&B, some jazz, some
rock, and Karaoke (which I hate, but I don't know why because it sounds like
it should be fun). This year add DISCO. YES. DISCO. Quite a number of bars
were playing Disco. That's up with that?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:39:19 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "to have seen a specter isn't everything..."
In a message dated 97-07-14 12:45:57 EDT, dkpenn@OEES.COM (Penn, Douglas, K)
writes:
<< good neighborhood for sex clubs, used
book, record & clothing stores. and automotive supply stores.
>>
That is exactly the kind of place I'm looking for. Good automotive supply
stores.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:30:38 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Some of the Dharma
I think it's schedule for a September release date to be followed by the
"Selected Letters v.2", although this pub date may have been pushed up.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:45:10 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: FW: Jack and Neal
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----------
From: Hemenway . Mark
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:37 AM
To: 'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'
Subject: RE: Jack and Neal
Importance: High
You might read <<Visions of Cody>> for Jack's book length views on his
relationship with Neal. I just read it again, not too long ago, and
don't remember any explicit references to a gay relationship. He
apparently saw him as a brother, a replacement for Gerard. The whole
brother thing... Gerard... etc is a gold mine for anyone interested in
psycho-biography. RE: Jack's sexual life, I recommend <<Memory Babe>>
by Gerry Nicosia as a source.
Mark Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:44:46 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: FW: Reading VOC
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----------
From: Hemenway . Mark
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 9:48 AM
To: 'LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'
Subject: RE: Reading VOC
Importance: High
I could never make any progress with Naked Lunch until I read an essay
that pointed out it was never meant to be read in a linear way- start
to finish- but was written as unrelated scenes. For those
obsessive-compulsive people like me having trouble making it through
VOC, you might try the same approach. It is a difficult book. Just dip
in and read a bit. No disrespect intended, but I found it to be great
bathroom reading. Bedtime reading might also work. I also ended
reading it backwards and enjoyed the hell out of it.
Mark Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:06:11 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
i would agree that AG & WSB did exhibit some mysoginistic feelings (although
my reading of both of them has a long way to go before i can be any real
judge).
i will reiterate that JK displayed unrealistic expectations of and ideals
about women. however, i do not think they were out of an idea that women were
second class citizens. i think they were based on his personal experiences.
as far as the predominant view of "women's place" in the 50's, i don't see how
anyone can say that it wasn't that women "should be seen and not heard", etc.
- that problem still exists, probably much more than one would think. i was
born in '57 and spent all of my childhood and most of my teenage years
hearing, almost exclusively, that crock o' shit from most of the males i knew
- and fighting it mightily. i ran into it in the work world and in college in
the 70's and early 80's. and even in liberal old Calif., it's still not
terribly unusual to run into it in a rather veiled way (and occasionally a
totally glaring way). it may not have been the predominant opinion among
Beats, i have yet to form a solid opinion on that, but it does appear to be at
odds with the general sense of what Beat seems to mean...
i also think it is important to form an opinion regarding an author's social
outlook by placing what s/he has to say within the social context of the time.
i know, with regard to myself, how my views have changed during my lifetime
due to exposure to various ideas and cultures and although my natural outlook
has always been that of a feminist, my opinions have been molded and re-shaped
by experience and learning. i, therefore, would hate to have my attitudes be
judged at any one point in time without the social climate of the time as a
backdrop.
all that being said, Bill & James, i would like to thank you both for what i
infer to be an enlightened, progressive and caring attitude toward women.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James Stauffer
Sent: Monday, July 21, 1997 11:13 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
Sherri,
I'm inclined toward Bill's view here. The "seen not heard" stance while
certainly one view during the 50's wasn't by any means the dominant
voice. Compare JK here with someone like Snyder, or even Ginsberg.
Jack had a very hard time seeing real women. They tend to appear as
unrealistic Madonna's or equally one dimensional sluts. There is a
tendency toward mysogony in the JK, AG, WSB group that is hard to deal
with sometimes.
James Stauffer
Sherri wrote:
. . but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be seen
and
> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc., which were the
> prevailing opinions i grew up with.
>
> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some
> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's. and that he
> realized that there was some unfairness for women.
>
> ciao,
> sherri
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:49:37 -0400
Reply-To: "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Some of the Dharma
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:30 PM 7/21/97 EDT, you wrote:
>I think it's schedule for a September release date to be followed by the
>"Selected Letters v.2", although this pub date may have been pushed up.
>
It will be released on September 5th along with ON the Road 40th Anniversary
edition. It has 432 pages filled with various journal entries, letter
fragments, prayers, literary essays (nice one on Dostoyevsky), musings,
thoughts, dreams, poems, and every one in a typeset facsimile exactly as
Jack wrote them. The book will mark a significant addition to the Kerouac
canon and just plain makes compelling reading. Ignore Kircus Reviews
negative review on this book which is written by a feminist critic who is
less than fond of Kerouac's misogynistic turns i.e. "Pretty women make
graves. Fuck you all."
Selected Letters II is now expected next fall because Ann Charters had
scholarly obligations to fulfill (editing a textbook or some stuff like that).
Read this Summer's Kerouac Quarterly for more info. . .40 pages for $2.95.
Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly.. . .
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 17:47:24 -0400
Reply-To: Jcarsonm@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Murphy <Jcarsonm@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What NEXT?
The subject WHAT NEXT is about discovery--we all have more than one ratty
copy of Ulysses & Eliot & Proust & Gravity's Rainbow. They'll always be
there. It would be fun again to discover again Lonesome Traveler. Try it.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:26:28 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Catch-ups
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Thanks for the catch-ups guys ... I've actually
been following for about 3 days.
I mainly came back on because I got the BEAT-L
shirt from Jeffrey Weinberg with that nice and
very generous letter, and I thought "how can I
go around wearing a BEAT-L shirt -- a *free*
BEAT-L shirt in fact -- if I'm not on BEAT-L?"
Thanks Jeffrey ...
And, to chime in on the threads ...
1) I just can't see that Kerouac was gay, though I've
heard this argument before. Yes, he did apparently
have sex with Gore Vidal, collect blowjobs from Allen
Ginsberg, etc., but I believe this was all in the spirit
of openness to experience and all that. After all,
he lived a pretty wild life -- he did a *lot* of
things. But primarily he was interested in exploring
the depths of his personality through his writings,
and it would have been uncharacteristic of him to
have kept some secret attraction towards men out of
his written record. This is a guy, I honestly
believe, who didn't keep secrets. I think truthfulness
was as deep an artistic principle as any he had,
and his principles were everything to him.
2) Visions of Cody -- yeah, it's not the easiest
book to read. I skimmed the tape parts. I love
the first section, though.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
| |
| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
| -- Jack Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:49:42 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sherri,
Now now, you make me sound like a Sensitive New Age Guy I don't think my
friends would recognize. Just an old dinosaur who has learned to
survive the hysteria of current sexual politics by picking his words
carefully :)
Who was it, Stokely Carmichael? who when asked about the place of women
in the Black Power movement replied "On their backs." Not an anwer that
would have shocked AG, JK or WSB I suspect, although given their
preferences AG and WSB wouldn't have found it all that helpful
James Stauffer
Sherri wrote: . . .
>
> all that being said, Bill & James, i would like to thank you both for what i
> infer to be an enlightened, progressive and caring attitude toward women.
> ciao,
> sherri
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 16:01:31 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Bay Area Beat-L Bash
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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The first annual SF Bay Area Beat-L Bash will be held the evening of
August 2 at a secret location on the Peninsula. This is your opportunity
to find out of any of us are real. Interested partiers are encouraged to
backchannel me for particulars. You might as well come because the rest
of you will probably have to endure our posts until Bill Gargan cuts us
off from communion (OK, I've been reading Ulysses).
Rave on
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:57:08 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: Re: What NEXT?
Comments: To: "Jcarsonm@AOL.COM" <Jcarsonm@AOL.COM>
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thinking maybe if we're going to do a reading list of sorts...why not some
poetry too? just an idea...tell me what you think,
ryan.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:25:45 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: What NEXT?
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Since everyone seems to be talking about Kerouac and his relationships
with women, how about _The Subterraneans_, and maybe Bukowski's _Women_
to go along with the theme?
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:48:04 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Good beginning
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> James Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Benz and Diane,
> >
> > You guys make some good points about this book, but you also raise a
> > couple of issues that have been troubling me.
> >
> > I have trouble with AG as an explicator of this book (VOC) and really
> > of
> > Jack in general. It seems to me that while he is often brilliantly
> > insightful about Jack, Allen also tries to rewrite Jack into sharing
> > his
> > own mythology and theology more than Jack perhaps did. Ginsberg is
> > always a propagandist. We get sort of a strange phenomenon going
> > here,
> > Jack trying to rewrite Neal as he would like him to be and then Allen
> > putting his spin onto the whole thing. This is a pretty natural
> > dynamic
> > among friends. Most of us know better what our friends should do to
> > improve their lives better than we know what to do about our own.
> >
> > I tried for awhile to read VOC without first reading AG's
> introduction
> > so as to be able to see the book with my own eyes rather than
> > Ginsbergs.
> >
> > James Stauffer
I don't see Ginsberg's notes on VOC as rewriting Jack based on his own
agenda. I actually thought his memories of the events and his
interpretation of the novel as a whole gave me more of a sense of what
was going on in terms of method, and that his knowledge of Jack as a
friend was what created that elucidation. There were times when I might
not have seen the point in finishing VOC if it was not for his insistence
that a certain type of greatness resided within the work. I don't see
what he wrote as having any sort of selfish motivation. I think he was
truly disgusted with publishers that refused to publish the work because
it might not sell well. The difficulty of technique makes it truly hard
to digest for anyone not interested in all aspects of Kerouac's
development as a writer.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:06:20 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
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> Sherri wrote:
>
> i think i must not have gotten my point across.
>
> i really don't think JK was sexist.
>
> i do believe that he had personal problems with women, and
> relationships in
> general, but i don't believe he held the notion that women should be
> seen and
> not heard, didn't have minds, shouldn't have careers, etc., which were
> the
> prevailing opinions i grew up with.
>
> my point was that i think that JK was aware and had at least given some
> consideration to the "woman question" as it stood in the 50's. and
> that he
> realized that there was some unfairness for women.
Upon what do you base your statement about Kerouac giving consideration
to the woman question? I have to agree with Bill and James here and
perhaps even more strongly assert that he never had any idea of what a
woman's mind or point of view might have been. To put it as blatently as
he certainly did in VOC and OTR, he saw women as cunts. He never talked
about a woman has being intelligent or independent, or ever even came
close to understanding a woman's mindset. And despite the fact that
we are talking about the forties and fifties, there were certainly
independent and professional women to be found. When he took a woman to
dinner or met one at a party, he certainly never had anything in mind
close to wanting to more from her than sex. How many women did he invite
over to discuss his latest writing with? He couldn't deal with a
husband/wife situation and he certainly couldn't deal with a
daughter/father relationship. He was a great writer and the humanness he
so eloquently described applied to women as well as men, but I think he
was a sexist in every sense of the word.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:12:03 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: New thread
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> Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> "Some of the Dharma" is about to hit the bookstores. How about making
> this our new thread?
Since it seems that "Some of the Dharma" is not going to be available
until September, why don't we have a Kerouac summer and next read
something in between VOC and the new book that might help to bridge the
gap between VOC and then. Any suggestions as to which book would be best
for that kind of reading?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:29:09 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: [Fwd: reading on August 22nd]
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Griffin requested that I pass this on to the list since he is currently
off list travelling.
s.a. griffin wrote:
. . .
>
> listen, could you do me a favor, since I am no longer on the beatlist,
> could you post the following info for me?
>
> am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707
> Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.
> 6 bucks at the door. The readers are :
>
> Philomene Long
> Jack Micheline
> Frank T. Rios
> Tony Scibella
> John Thomas
>
> they are all Venice Beats save for Jack who is of course out of New York
> and San Francisco. A small coming together of west coast beat.
>
> hope that all is well. when ya coming down? my regards to all on the list...
>
> later
> xxxooo
> s.a.
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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:14:59 -0700
To: <stauffer@pacbell.net>
From: "s.a. griffin" <sagriffin@mindspring.com>
Subject: reading on August 22nd
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James, been outta town working in Salt Lake, back for a week or so.
Yeah, the big beat will be a lotta work, but could be rewarding to say the
least. an education and a coming together. will talk more on that after I
get back from my second round in Salt Lake middle of August.
listen, could you do me a favor, since I am no longer on the beatlist,
could you post the following info for me?
am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707
Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.
6 bucks at the door. The readers are :
Philomene Long
Jack Micheline
Frank T. Rios
Tony Scibella
John Thomas
they are all Venice Beats save for Jack who is of course out of New York
and San Francisco. A small coming together of west coast beat.
hope that all is well. when ya coming down? my regards to all on the list...
later
xxxooo
s.a.
--------------8381DB32F57--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 00:20:10 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Get your kicks on ????
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Hello,
Something funny has always bothered me, maybe it's because of my age...
but does anyone know the roads Neal and Jack took cross-country? I'd be
exstactic beyond anyone's imaginations if someone could tell me.
Thanks,
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 21:30:58 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: reading on August 22nd]
In-Reply-To: <33D42905.4581@pacbell.net>
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At 8:29 PM -0700 7/21/97, James Stauffer passed along from s.a.:
> > am producing/hosting a reading of beat poets at The Galaxa Studios 3707
> > Sunset Blvd. in Silverlake area of Los Angeles, Friday August 22nd at 8pm.
> > 6 bucks at the door. The readers are :
I think I can make this. cool.
Dogulas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
step aside, and let the man go thru
----> let the man go thru
super bon-bon (soul coughing)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:40:51 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Cody: the last 100 pages
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I did finish VOC and I have got to say the ending left me in total
dispair. There is no doubt that by the time you have gotten to this part
of the work, that Cody has become largely a gigantic mythological figure,
and that this mythical giant is beaten down by America and fades into
total dispair for all that America is and all that Cody can never become.
I was totally depressed by the ending, in fact, given the darkness and
bleakness of the situation, I have no doubt as to Jack drank to block
his sense of sadness and despair. The end contains such great despair,
it could even drive me to drink.
Here are some quotes that paint the picture:
pg. 321
"Cody stands, implacable, unforetold, expressionless, almost dull looking
and ridiculously serious, Cody Pomeray. showing me how he will die, and
how well he does and also not showing anything to anyone but just being
there, dead in the void."
pg. 327
"the dusk of the park, the benches, the sad walk, the gathering darkness,
the hollow shell of Cody haunting the gloom and these Mexican monuments
and fountains like the ones we saw in Chapultepee Park at the bottom of
the road--Cody is dead."
pg. 335
"Do I have a baby daughter somewhere? I have not troubled to find
out..."
pg. 340
"I saw that in his wild life of car-stealing, girl-conning, poolhalling
and hustling he needed order and a certain amount of help. He was very
youthful and severe, and I marveled at him--openly with myself I thought
of him as a heartbreaking new friend, in fact very beautiful to whom the
only thing I could ever be left to say would be, 'Ah but your beauty will
die and so will life and the world."
pg. 368
"I writing this book because we are all going to die--In the loneliness
of my life, my father dead, my brother dead, my mother faraway, my sister
and wife far away, nothing here but my own tragic hands that once were
guarded by a world, a sweet attention, that now are left to guide and
disappear their own way into the common dark of all our death, sleeping
in me raw bed, alone and stupid; with just this one pride and
consolation: my heart broke in the general despair and opened upwards
toward the Lord, I made a suplication in this dream."
pg. 373
"we all stumbled out into raggedy American realities from the dream of
jazz: all our truths are at night, are to be found in the night on land
or sea. Pray for the safety of the mind; find a justification for
yourself in the past only; romanticize yourself into nights. What is the
truth? You can't communicate with any other being, forever. Cody is so
lost in his private--being--If I were God I'd have the word, Cody is my
friend and he is doomed as I am doomed."
pg. 389
"I'm powerless in from of such lonliness and imprisoned despair..."
Pg. 397
"I stood on sandpiles with an open soul, I not only accept loss forever,
I am made of loss--I am made of Cody too..."
pg. 398
"Goodbye Cody--your lips in your moments of self-possessed knowledge and
new found responsible goodness are as silent, make at least a noise, and
mystify with sense in nature, like the light of an automobile reflecting
from the shinny silverpaint of a sidewalk tank this very instant, as
silent and all this, as a bird crossing the dawn in search of the
mountain cross and the sea beyond the city at the end of the land.
Adios, you who watched the sun go down, at the rail, by my side,
smiling--
Adios, King.
Strickly in the framework of this ending, what hope can we hold for
America or each other? We are betrayed by America, betrayed by our own
mortality. Within this sense of doom, what makes any action any better
than any other action? Here despair has taken hold of the mind and there
can be nothing new or expectant about life, only the fact that we are
doomed to die, and doomed in trying to lead any sort of life in the light
of American decay. For what can one hope? The hero is no longer a hero.
The hero is as doomed as the mind that created him. Why not wallow as
Jack does, in this dispair. Does anyone see even one positive thing in
the ending of this book?
And, btw, I now see the tape as an essential thing, for in it begins the
basic thread that the writer must then elaborate on and develop. Even
though taken alone, it does not illuminate anything, it does give a
foundation from which the writer can take the words and further develop
them as Jack did in the chapters that followed--much like a jazz piece
that starts out rather basic and then is taken to greater places by those
that pick up the original notes.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 22:01:27 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody: the last 100 pages
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Diane,
Admittedly I haven't yet made the last 100 pages, but your argument
troubles me, as this book does.
Why is this America's fault? This part misses me completely. Writers
have been dealing with the inevitability of death since Homer and the
Biblical writers. As long as man has been writing this has been at the
center of it. Doesn't make it any easier to accept, but it's certainly
not Jack's discovery tho he sometimes seems to think so.
Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes. I suspect even Homer
thought it was better in the old days. Again, not a new discovery by
JK. I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn
frustratingly naive. How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that
had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been
much different. Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back
to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so
he drank himself to death. America fails us all. All of our countries
fail us. Life often seems a bad joke. If we don't do our best to
hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?
James Stauffer
Diane Carter wrote:
, , ,
>
> Strickly in the framework of this ending, what hope can we hold for
> America or each other? We are betrayed by America, betrayed by our own
> mortality. Within this sense of doom, what makes any action any better
> than any other action? Here despair has taken hold of the mind and there
> can be nothing new or expectant about life, only the fact that we are
> doomed to die, and doomed in trying to lead any sort of life in the light
> of American decay. For what can one hope? The hero is no longer a hero.
> The hero is as doomed as the mind that created him. Why not wallow as
> Jack does, in this dispair. Does anyone see even one positive thing in
> the ending of this book?
>
> And, btw, I now see the tape as an essential thing, for in it begins the
> basic thread that the writer must then elaborate on and develop. Even
> though taken alone, it does not illuminate anything, it does give a
> foundation from which the writer can take the words and further develop
> them as Jack did in the chapters that followed--much like a jazz piece
> that starts out rather basic and then is taken to greater places by those
> that pick up the original notes.
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 06:17:58 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody: the last 100 pages
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(snipped)
>How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that had
>Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been
>much different. Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back
>to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so
>he drank himself to death. America fails us all. All of our countries
>fail us. Life often seems a bad joke. If we don't do our best to
>hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?
>
>James Stauffer
James,
I don't think that Kerouac was arguing that the country of America had
failed him or Cody literally (I haven't read the book under discussion but
I've gotten a similar sense from some of his other books), more that the
"American Dream" had failed them. "Life"- sorry, you can only borrow it.
"Liberty"- well, here's a taste but hurry, the cops are coming. "The
pursuit of happiness"- we didn't word that right, actually it's more like
"The flight from misery". A country can't fail you but your hopes for a
country can disappoint the hell outta you. The ideals which your country
claims to espouse and the things, like life itself, which you take for
granted often backslap you once you're old enough to realize it. I don't
think that this is a display of naivety, rather a sign that coming of age is
a lifelong process.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:51:59 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: Second Beat #4
Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
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Having met with sucess (increasing everyday) in the distribution of Second
Beat #3 (the Allen Ginsberg Memorial, I'm sure you'll all remember, which
is still available-a very limited supply of first printings before we go
into reprints-for a buck) we have moved on to our fourth issue-the
religious persecution issue. Having received two letters from my "religious
nutso" deacon-uncle in Texas challenging our faith, we decided to rebut
with an entire issue of our mag devoted to him. The letter iss as follows
below. We would appreciate any comments in defense of ours and the Beat's
generation subject for print in said issue.
Thanks,
Thadeus D'Angelo, Camellia City Books
Thursday, April 10, 1997
Thadeus D'Angelo (Spittle)
C/O Matt Doman
2034 Johnston Station Road.
Summit, MS 39666
Dear Thad,
This is Unc, bud! I'd like to introduce you to someone who I believe would
be a better mentor to you than Demonic. I understand that ol' Demo is a
college boy but it appears that this friend of mine, a mere H.S. Senior,
has a clearer perspective on life than he. Now go easy on him as he has
only been acknowledged as a gifted poet by his peers and the International
Society Of Poet and has only been to Washington D.C. once to receive a
dubious "Poet of Merit Award" being in the top 150 of 3000 poets. I don't
know how often he can correspond with you since he is busy legitimately
publishing his poetry and writing a childrens book for publication.
Hey Thad, this is Joey. I'm a friend of John's and I just read your 2nd
Issue of Second Beat. I tend to write a little poetry and the occasional
story or two myself. Now, I'd like to present a challenge to you and
Demonic. It seems to me I heard once that good ol' Thad claimed to be a
Christian, and thinking back, I do recall the very night that Jesus Christ
claimed your life. Now, something here seems a little screwy, jaded,
turned about, if you will.
So therefore, bretheren, I do now begin to communicate
Quite clearly, I think, though the hour is late.
I boldly challenge thee to think, to ponder,
To seriously commit yourselves to wonder
Of all that I and my Friend of Three
Do so solemnly write to thee.
We want to stretch your thinkers far
And test the thoughts of who you are
And who you claim to be
You see it's all the same to me.
I see in you a certainty(?),
A confidence in what you see
Or perhaps in what you profess to be
I guess that's what it seems to me.
It's Truth you want and so diligently search
<hint> Think back to the Word you heard in Church.
I want thus to communicate with you two,
Or one on one if this suits you
To give you Spiritual food to devour
And thus decide in your hearts this hour.
So it's Demo and Thad searching for the Truth
With me, My Three providing the Proof.
Now the challenge is thus:
We write to you, you write to Us. ~~~~Joey
Hey Thad, Unc again. I trust you won't be intimidated and not respond.
Although I must tell you that most of the Demo's I have met, when they are
confronted with the Truth, they flee. I don't expect that you would print
any of your dialog with Joey in Second Beat, that would be too enlightening
to your readers and might increase reader interest. What do you say Thad,
Demo? Please continue to send me copies off Second Beat so that I can keep
up with your dialog with Joey. By the way I was hardly shocked at the
language in Second Beat since I may have heard one or two somewhere in my
past. Be careful though that it may replace
english as your primary language. We'll call it Beat-bonics!
Cheers,
Unc and Joey
Please submit all response to:
Mr. Joey Hensley
1705 Cougar Creek
Conroe, Texas 77385
that's the letter as it appeared to us. Give us your comments via e-mail at
<2ndbeat@telapex.com>
thanks again,
Thadeus
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:20:44 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: VofC
Diane is right in her analysis of VoC. This sense of despair permeates
much of Kerouac's work, though it is something he strives to fight or
work out. There's an attempt in OTR to salvage some happiness or find
redemption if you will through movement and speed. There's an attempt
to recapture the supposed "ideals" of the pioneer and the frontiersman,
with the car replacing the wagon train and horse, and the goal
translated from space to time, from miles to miles per hour.In "Dharma
Bums" the search is turned inward. The tension between despair and
hope in Kerouac's work is what keeps it interesting. He remains a
"searcher" trying to make some kind of sense out of life as he sees it.
Buddhism and Catholicism are two systems he embraces hoping to find an
answer; drugs like LSD are another possible sources of enlightenment.
The point is he keeps on going with the protagonist in each novel
grappling in a different way with the same questions, the same despair.
I've never really made up my mind as to whether this movement from novel
to novel was spiral or circular. Are we left in the end with the
gloomy Kerouac Diane quotes in VofC, the man who belived "the woods are
full of wardens" or the Kerouac of "Hix calix. Here's the cup, make
sure there's wine in it."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:01:02 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: In regards
Reply to message from dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET of Mon, 21 Jul
>
>My friends in Beating, (sounds like a support group or something)
> I'd like to take part in the next group reading but I've got a bit of a
>problem: an inability to lay hands on the books that have been mentioned as
>candidates so far. This inability kept me from participating in the
>_Visions of Cody_ project. I'm currently reading WSB's _The Western Lands_
>(which a friend had to lend to me). Could we add this one to the list of
>possibilities? I wouldn't mind reading _Naked Lunch_ again either. I think
>we could get a lot of mileage out of that one.
> Or Kerouac: _Visions of Gerard_, _The Subterraneans_, _The Dharma Bums_?
>I have a few other Kerouac works but the ones I've listed are the only ones
>I really have any interest in reading again presently.
> Anyway, whatever you guys decide is cool.
>
> James M.
Currently I've just started reading Naked Lunch, & I must admitt...it has
me a bit boggled, but I do love his style (this is my first Burroughs work
I'm reading)...even if I'm not always sure what he's talkign about...and
the fact that he quotes Macbeth in one part rates highly with me me, since
I spent three weeks studying that play this past academic year for a
class...anyone who would like to offer emotional support and/or insight,
please do! :)
Diane. (H)
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:06:34 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: What NEXT?
>>
>i would suggest One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest because it is a short
>easy read and is just a great book. i geuss Ken KEsey would be a beat
>but i always thought he was right between the line of being a beatnik
>and a hippie. he still did write good. also, the main character in
>OFOTCN always did remind me somewhat of Neal cassady. questions,
>comments? Cya~randy
I think quite a nubmer of people thought that the main character _was_
fashioned after Neal, but Kesey hadn't met Cassady until after the novel
had already been written....
Diane. (H)
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:15:18 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cody: the last 100 pages
In-Reply-To: <33D43EA6.62E5@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Why is this America's fault?
The thing we have to remember is to recognixe the America Kerouac is
dealing with. America is one of the most unique places on Earth because
it has developed an incredibly mythological identity in a scant 200+
years. America breeds myths like flies grow on shit. We have systems
who's sole purpose is to create these myths and legends and are so
insanely effective not even those individuals involved recognize the power
they wield. This is a place where performers reach the level of religious
icon, and with death they are propelled into our cultural conscience to
live there with Jesus for the rest of eternity. Except even more so
because we know John Wayne and Elvis were real.
> Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes. I suspect even Homer
> thought it was better in the old days. Again, not a new discovery by
> JK. I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn
> frustratingly naive. How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that
> had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been
> much different. Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes back
> to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack so
> he drank himself to death. America fails us all. All of our countries
> fail us. Life often seems a bad joke. If we don't do our best to
> hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?
>
America in big gold letters written in sunlight across Montana sky's is
the faith people have the most trouble rejecting. Never in my life have I
read a religious text that could inspire me to life like say, _On The
Road_ or _Travels with Charley_. Its this America that failed Jack
Kerouac. It was this America he lost faith in and let the vital energy
Jack had that we all love whither and die. Jack was an idealist in this
respect. He really believed in this America. His disappointment came
when he realized that that America was a far cry from the real America
where its illegal to be poor, where you can't just camp on the side of the
road, and where the public good has nothing at all to do with the public.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:29:02 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and Women
Reply to message from dcarter@TOGETHER.NET of Mon, 21 Jul
>> realized that there was some unfairness for women.
>Upon what do you base your statement about Kerouac giving consideration
>to the woman question? I have to agree with Bill and James here and
>perhaps even more strongly assert that he never had any idea of what a
>woman's mind or point of view might have been. To put it as blatently as
>he certainly did in VOC and OTR, he saw women as cunts. He never talked
>about a woman has being intelligent or independent, or ever even came
>close to understanding a woman's mindset. And despite the fact that
>we are talking about the forties and fifties, there were certainly
>independent and professional women to be found. When he took a woman to
>dinner or met one at a party, he certainly never had anything in mind
>close to wanting to more from her than sex. How many women did he invite
>over to discuss his latest writing with? He couldn't deal with a
>husband/wife situation and he certainly couldn't deal with a
>daughter/father relationship. He was a great writer and the humanness he
>so eloquently described applied to women as well as men, but I think he
>was a sexist in every sense of the word.
>DC
the line that caught me here was, "To put it as blatently as he certainly did
in VOC & OTR, he saw women as cunts." The biggest problem I have
with ole Jack is: who's the narrator in his novels. Is it Jack who says
this, thinks this, or is it a character of his? Are his novels fiction or
biography? True, he wrote about things that really happened & he even used
real names & then made up psydonyms later on....but were these people the
REAL Allen & Burroughs & Neal, or Allen, Burroughs, Neal, Carolyn, LuAnne
etc. as seen by Jack....which would in itself make them somewhat fictionalized
from who they REALLY were. I don't remember coming across this line in
OTR, & I never read VOC, but I do remember coming acorss other lines in OTR
such as (gotta get my copy here), "The truth of the matter is we don't
understand our women, we blame on them and it's all our fault." Which
doesn't _sound_ sexist to me....and from Carolyn Cassady's descriptions of
Jack in Off the Road, he didn't come across as a sexist...maybe becuase I
jsut can't picture a sexist as being as sensitive as jack was. I mean, we
know that when it came to sex he evidently was rather shy about it...so if
he did only see women as cunts, he sure didn't go about getting some the
way the typical gigalo would....& when compared to the image of Neal, Jack
was defiently mild-mannered with the women. It _is_ true, very ture, that
he didn't know how to handle his relationships with women....but I have to
side with the other side...it wasn't necessarily becuase he was a
sexist...he just didn't know _how_.
Diane. (H)
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 23:40:36 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Cody: the last 100 pages
MIME-Version: 1.0
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James Stauffer wrote:
>
> Diane,
>
> Admittedly I haven't yet made the last 100 pages, but your argument
> troubles me, as this book does.
>
> Why is this America's fault? This part misses me completely. Writers
> have been dealing with the inevitability of death since Homer and the
> Biblical writers. As long as man has been writing this has been at the
> center of it. Doesn't make it any easier to accept, but it's certainly
> not Jack's discovery tho he sometimes seems to think so.
>
> Modern life everywhere has been tough on heroes. I suspect even Homer
> thought it was better in the old days. Again, not a new discovery by
> JK. I think that this is why the book strikes me as so damn
> frustratingly naive. How does America fail Cody? Are we to infer that
> had Cody been in France or India or the USSR his fate would have been
> much different. Color me dense, but I just don't get it. This goes
> back
> to the argument that Corso and Ginsberg make that America failed Jack
> so
> he drank himself to death. America fails us all. All of our countries
> fail us. Life often seems a bad joke. If we don't do our best to
> hasten our deaths are we showing a lack of artistic senstivity or what?
>
> James Stauffer
James,
I think your argument about "Why is it America's fault?" also troubles me
more than Jack's despair about human life. All humans inevitably fail
other humans, heros also fail us because they are cloaked in the
perceptions of a human mind. Our frailties are as great as our
strengths, that's what makes living interesting. I think that the
America that failed Jack is somewhat larger than an American dream that
failed. America fails all of us. It failed all of the beats. The thing
that attracts me to Ginsberg is that in spite of what he saw as America's
"hardheartedness" he wrote such absolutely positive poetry. Even in Howl
he is saying "look at the way things are but this isn't the way they have
to be." When it came to things he thought needed changing in society
and culture, he took action. I get the feeling from VOC that, yes, if he
had been born in another country, Jack thinks he might not have this
despair. He talks in Mexico about watching the Indian lifestyle and
thinking that they didn't even know that we had an atom bomb. He writes
of the misery of watching the masses going to work everyday, and paying
taxes, and being failed in their expectations. In VOC he doesn't dwell
on the "highs" of crossing America as he did even in OTR. Would he feel
differently about the America we have today; an America in which he would
could have seen himself as successful as a writer, an America that at
its core has the same failings it did in the time he was writing about?
I think I keep searching for something more positive in his vision, the
human that despite the fact that he's going to die rises to beauty and
joy in the face of that, someone who that in spite of the failings of
America sees hope in the indominitable spirit of the individuals that
make up America.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:39:12 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)
Dear Chris:
Your post of 97-07-19 03:41:55 EDT, "Jack's Sexuality", hit on a very
important point that is often overlooked amidst the energy and fireworks that
the "kicks" aspect of JK's works generate. Just as he tried, in vain, to
distract himself from the "darkness" and demons and whip up a sense of "joy"
through his writing, some readers, it seems to me, have been fooled more
successfully into not seeing into the ultimate abyss than the author himself.
I am the one you referred to when you wrote: "Someone said something about
Jack's books being about running from something and toward it at the same
time...". My exact words, in a response to a post from Sherri way back on
July 12, were: "....Throughout OTR, it seems that only in the pendulum
movement back and forth across the continent itself is there a fleeting
capture of "IT", what they are looking for is just behind or ahead in the
flow of movement. He and most of the others he writes about are running away
from and toward something concurrently, in an unending treadmill like an
experiential/emotional food chain....". The most insightful aspect of the
new Kerouac tribute cd, KICKS JOY DARKNESS, which has generated some
commentary on this List, is the title itself. These, indeed, are the core
ingredients of all his writings. Somewhat understandably, we would often
rather revel in the first 2 components, they're simply more fun. But a
careful and honest reading of OTR and the other works reveals a deeper and
sadder message at the end of the road, so to speak. JK and the Beats
certainly got past the totalitarian, conformist milieu of their (and, let's
not kid ourselves, our) day, their doing this in and of itself was a
startling breath of fresh air in especial contrast to their time and place,
where grey flannel, tv-dinner consumer slavery was hitting its stride in its
own freshly-minted crassness in the wake of WWII. But when JK got past all
of that, what did he ultimately find? His one long work which all his books
comprise are a chronicle of DESPERATION and ultimately DESPAIR, following the
same tragic course that his life took. The sound and fury of kicks and joy
ALWAYS end in darkness. This is not to say that we shouldn't appreciate or
find credible the other ingredients, they are authentic and courageous in the
context of their, or any, time and place. But ultimately, JK's message might
be paraphrased as follows: "I have overcome and put aside the illusory and
meaningless distractions of the society from which I came, and have gone on a
desperate quest for meaning, through religion, experience, the very act of
movement itself- but alas, I only see MORE clearly than ever the final
futility of it all, darkness and death claim everyone, no matter how wildly,
loudly or "freely" they thrash about". As James Stauffer wrote in a recent
post, the foregoing is not exactly a new discovery to be credited to JK, it
is a theme that runs from Homer to Hemingway and through today and for as
long as the human condition exists. But it was JK's fate to RE-discover this
yet again, the particularly repressive society he emerged from and became an
outsider from only heightening the despair of his ultimate discovery. In my
opinion, it is not the task of the artist to necessarily make new
discoveries, but to express the eternal truths that are re-discovered
(despite our best efforts more than ever) in every generation, Beat or
otherwise. Diane Carter, in her "Cody: the last 100 pages" post of today,
has strongly picked up on the theme I'm running from, with and toward here.
I don't blame her for needing a drink after comprehending JK's ultimate
statement in VOC, it's not for the squeamish or those who insist on looking
at the "bright" side. But as Ginsberg pointed out, JK's writings are the
result of a frank understanding of and reaction to the "quivering meat wheel"
of our mortal existence, in America or anywhere else on the planet where
"death needs time for what it kills to grow in, for ah pook's sweet sake" to
quote WSB. Speaking of being frank, this may be stretching things (what the
hell, I've gone this far and this paragraph is getting close to the length of
one of those JK rolls), but I think that the presentation of the character
Frank Booth in the film BLUE VELVET hits on the same point that JK brings
home in VOC & elsewhere. He wildly runs rampant, a violent pure id mauling
everything and everyone in his path- but, at the conclusion of every
encounter, he quiets down and says "now it's dark". JK would have understood
and been delightfully disturbed by this portrayal had he lived to see it.
Getting back to your original post that set me off here, I am also a big fan
of DESOLATION ANGELS among all the JK works that I have read so far, it
probably would be my desert island choice. And again, there is no escape,
either all by himself on Desolation Peak or among the revelers in the city,
from the darkness. I also agree that JK's particular demons in the sexual
and religious departments greatly added to the torment and irreconcilability
that afflicted him and drove him to destruction, as predicted in the works he
created along the way. He has to have been one of the most conflicted and
unhappy people in the annals of artistry. Many recent posts have dealt with
how stingy and uncaring JK was toward Neal Cassady, but if it's any
consolation, JK paid a very heavy price for his mythologizing of NC at least
as much as NC paid for being mythologized. Thoughtful and introverted,
happier to sit in a corner and take notes on than to dive into a scene much
of the time, he was trapped in a caricature of the mythical Dean Moriarty
after OTR made him famous overnight. His appalling peasant apron-string
mother and later his nurse-wife Stella tried to shoo away the fans who
misunderstood his message and wanted him to be NC-DM, while he cowered and
drank in a corner, the antithesis of the fearlessly free life that a surface
reading of his works evokes.
Anyway, without quoting or referring to any more of its particulars, I think
your post is right on the money and am proud to have been woven into it.
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:25:42 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Eastward Journey, really the end
>>> I didn't finish my message on my eastward jouney before I sent it out so
I'm finishing it now. Sorry about that.
>From New Orleans went up to Durham, North Carolina and then went to visit
some people in a town called Todd (about 2 hours away). The people own a
General Store that has become quite a tourist trap. They sell penny candy for
a nickel a piece.
Then went to Rocky Mount, where Kerouac lived with his sister Nin. (No, that
is not an abbreviation for Nine Inch Nails, it's short for Caroline). Rocky
Mount is about 45 minutes east of Raleigh. It is where Neil Cassady shows up
on Christmas Eve to see Jack (in ON THE ROAD). It is also where Jack wrote a
few of his books on the back porch of Nin's house. John Dorfner has a book
out on Rocky Mount with pictures of the Kerouac house if you want more info
on that.
>From North Carolina went up to Wash DC where we hung out and looked at the
monuments. I lived in Wash DC for 10 years, and I still think it is one of
the best tourist towns around with all the free museums and events going on.
Hang out in Adams Morgan, or 14th Street and U Street. Only Yuppies go to
Georgetown (even though that has a few good spots as well). Capitol Hill has
a real cool bar (with all the deer butts on the wall) but I forget it's name
right now, maybe Howard can tell you.
>From there went to New York, which is where I am right now. Since I've
arrived here, I have gone to McSorley's, my favorite place for a beer in the
city. McSorley's is the city's oldest bar, open since 1854 or so.
Walked around the village a little - Washington Square, Tompkins Park (or is
it Square). Also walked through Central Park which is one of my favorite
places in the city because you are almost totally cut off from the city.
There are places there where you see no buildings or cars, and just barely
hear the rumblings of the city.
Also went to Coney Island and rode the Wonder Wheel, this giant Ferris Wheel
that is a trip in itself, with only the rust holding it together (and maybe
spit).
And rode the Cyclone, the best rollercoaster in the world (ok, that was just
New York hype). Sat in the front car and came to that first mighty drop that
I believe is slightly concave so that you are hurtling through empty air
before you smash into the bottom of the valley where you find your stomach at
the bottom of the sole of your feet with only your shoes preventing it from
splattering on the floor of the car. And only $4.00.
So I am now at the end of the eastward Journey. I'm here for a few days
before I head back west. I'll be taking a different mode of transportation.
Maybe ride the Hound (bus that is), or one of those drive-a-ways.
Trip took 3 weeks or so, drove 5,239 miles, and I think 14 states, but who's
counting.
Hope everybody has their own adventure in their own way.
enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 13:32:04 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: next book i vote westernland
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imho what about reading one of each of the big three,
voc was good, next western land then maybe howl?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:26:02 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Love triangle
Barbara Foster, a colleague at CUNY, has recently written a book
entitled "Three in Love: Menages a trois from ancient to modern times."
There's a chapter on the Beats that focuses on Jack, Neal, and Carolyn.
Carolyn and Foster have corresponded and Carolyn seems to appreciate
Foster's approach. I'll try to get a hold of a copy and post a review
in more detail. For those who are interested, the book is published
by Harper's and sells for $25.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:47:36 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Finis Europae (poem).
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Finis Europae.
Finis Europae.
Finis Europae.Finis Europae.
Finis Europae?
Finis Europae?
Finis Europae.
WORKERS OF ALL LANDS
UNITE
KARL MARX
THE PHILOSOPHERS HAVE ONLY
INTERPRETED THE WORLD IN
VARIOUS WAYS. THE POINT
HOWEVER IS TO CHANGE IT.
Finis Europae?Finis Europae?Finis Europae?Finis Europae?
THE POINT
HOWEVER IS TO CHANGE IT.
Finis Europae.
Finis Europae!
KARL MARX
KARL MARX
Finis Europae?
Finis Europae?
Finis Europae.
VARIOUS WAYS. THE POINT
HOWEVER IS
Finis Europae.
Finis Europae!
the point
the point is
finis Europae!
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
*Writers have been dealing with the inevitability of death
since Homer and the Biblical writers.--James Stauffer*
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:45:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: next book i vote westernland
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> imho what about reading one of each of the big three,
> voc was good, next western land then maybe howl?
This makes quite a bit of sense. It seems there are several on the list
that could help us along through the Western Lands - patricia and arthur
come to mind immediately.
Burroughs influence on Allen and Jack in the new york days is just so
powerful - it seems a mistake to let his writings drift into a fog
merely because he has outlived the odds.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas, america
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:59:17 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Hunter's ale
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Newsgroups: alt.journalism.gonzo
So I'm staring at the coolers in the liquor store on Friday night trying
to be a good consumer and decide whose coffers I will fill with my $7 for
their product when I notice a special 16-ouncer (sold singly) with a
label image scrawled by Ralph Steadman. I laughed at the $3 price tag and
kept looking, soon finding another 6-pack also apparently illustrated by
Steadman, with a demented clown-topped figure standing open-jawed next to
the words GOOD BEER and NO CENSORSHIP. Upon closer inspection I noticed
that HST signature/seal of approval and a quote from the Good Doctor: "If
you must roll old ladies down hills / and you don't want to pay the bills
/ Try to be nice, and clean off their lice / with powerful Road Dog Ale."
An advertisement couldn't have been more in the American spirit, and I
eagerly grabbed a 6 from this Aspen-based microbrew, agreeing with the
other prominently-featured Thompson quote: "Good people drink good beer."
While I am not stupid enough to buy a broken operating system for my
computer just because the company paid Allen Ginsberg to read in
their commercial, or wear overpriced shoes because another co. gave cash
to Burroughs, I will favor an HST-endorsed microbrew over most any other
overpriced ale -- at least this one time.
Yes, the beer was a welcome component to a night of debauchery on a
local public beach, and later that weekend I did call their 800/9DOGGIE
hotline for a catalog. But that's not saying I've fallen for the ad --
next time I may favor Rolling Rock and pretend its just as good, who
knows.
"There is an ancient Celtic axiom that says 'Good people drink good beer.'
Which is true, then as now. Just look around you in any public bar-room,
and you will quickly see: Bad people drink bad beer. Think about it."
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:18:48 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter's ale
Comments: To: michaelstutz <stutz@dsl.org>
In a message dated 97-07-22 18:11:06 EDT, you write:
<< "There is an ancient Celtic axiom that says 'Good people drink good beer.'
Which is true, then as now. Just look around you in any public bar-room,
and you will quickly see: Bad people drink bad beer. Think about it."
>>
This is the only axiom that I can attest to as 100% correct and it's not just
because I'm celtic. My other part is Indian so firewater doesn't mix.
Charles
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:50:11 -0400
Reply-To: Mcb93940@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jonny Coop <Mcb93940@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Kerouac's Ancestor
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Can anyone provide some info for this guy? Please feel free to e-mail me
directly or post to the list if appropriate and I'll forward. =20
Thanks!
Jerry Cimino
1-800-KER-OUAC
www.kerouac.com
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca (Dany Leblanc)
Sender: jerry@kerouac.com
Resent-from: lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca
To: jerry@kerouac.com
Date: 97-07-21 14:28:57 EDT
I Jerry,
Is it possible for you to place this message in your internet page? That
will be great. If not it is O.K.
Thanks
______________________
I am searching for the Birth place of Jack Kerouac's Ancestor. This
Ancestor was Maurice Louis Alexandre LE BRIS de KERVOACH. He was the son =
of
Fran=E7ois Hyacinthe LE BRIS de KERVOACH and V=E9ronique Magdeleine de
MEUSEUILLAC (Muzillac). This family lived in the Center of Brittany
(Episcopate of Cornouaille), maybe in the departments of Finist=E8re, C=F4=
tes
d'Armor or Morbihan (1680-1710).
Jack Kerouac visited this region in 1965. He wrote the book, Satori in
Paris, on this Quest for his Ancertor. Many "fans" of Kerouac are concern=
ed
by the discovery of this Birth place.
The present Search out call is made by
Cl=E9ment Kirouac
Qu=E9bec, Canada
Thanks to all for any information (French or English)
E-mail lebd@globetrotter.qc.ca
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:51:47 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: need help, please
MIME-Version: 1.0
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i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen =
Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"? i was =
reading about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:17:46 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lines of Milton requested from Dave
Say Heav'nly Muse, shall not thy sacred vein
afford a Present to the infant God?
Hath took no print of the approaching light,
And all the spangled host keep watch in squadrons bright?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:24:24 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lines not requested by Dave
Go home
to unwind the mummy roll by roll
Life is a poor host grabbing guests who came
swirling great pleated sheets wrapping the stars
Leaving, streaming party coils to their last car
some on twilight's slightly twisted cane
>From Charles Plymell's book, Forever Wider, Scarecrow Press 1985
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:34:13 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Chapter 2 ?????? p. 25--29
David
The lines you quoted by Milton have some of the same words
as from his 1629 poem, On The Morning of Christ's Nativity
Blake got a hold of some old rye bread. It lasted for days. Became moldy. He
wrote and painted for weeks, ran naked in his yard. Then he slept for days.
Woke up and decided to bepoet and wrote Songs of Innocence and Experience.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:37:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody: the last 100 pages
Comments: To: dcarter@together.net
In a message dated 97-07-23 00:08:42 EDT, you write:
<< So I can't really compare Joyce's techniques to anything having
to do with art. I also do not have a scanner or know any >>
Just go look at any portrait 'till you start hallucinating.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:56:28 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: BLAKE DREAMS
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Hi Charles,
I've been working on a small collection of poems for the last 6
months, and W. Blake along with J. Milton have guest appearances.
If you want to have a sneak prevue I can send them your way. A good
share of them are starting to show up in the little mags. I'm not
sure if they would post them on the Beat-L. Let me know my friend.
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:18:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: must I again?
Comments: To: BOHEMIAN@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
In a message dated 97-07-19 12:16:46 EDT, you write:
<< God, I love/hate this medium!
>>
< how linear>
Damn, I knew I shuda copyrited my lectures back there in the 70's
before these kids morphically resonated to the Information age. Oh well, I'll
have to start another
ROUND of ideas.
Old Kaw Tribe saying:
Men dream so earth continue
Old Zuni Mothermen saying:
Women plant seed too
line grows from earth to sky
Datura Frenzy smell
Dead scent of time
Fracture started when great
claws clawed sacred circle
Maw for Uranium power
Bad Karma mutations
Old man knows trail
Better hurry
Future can't stop dreaming
Remember, Custer was a loser
Charley Far Eyes
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:43:23 -0400
Reply-To: Aeschylus3@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tristan Jean <Aeschylus3@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What NEXT?
As long as it's poetry, why not read Rimbaud's Une saison en enfer (A Season
in Hell) .... it was enormously influential to the Beats ... especially
Kerouac, I believe ..... oh well, just a thought ...
tristan jean
aeschylus3@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:55:40 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: VOC Ending
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"Nobody knows what going to happen to anybody beyond the forlorn rags
of growing old."
On the Road
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:41:32 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Cody: the last 100 pages
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To: <970723003708_104964723@emout06.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 9:37 PM -0700 7/22/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> In a message dated 97-07-23 00:08:42 EDT, you write:
>
> << So I can't really compare Joyce's techniques to anything having
> to do with art. I also do not have a scanner or know any >>
>
> Just go look at any portrait 'till you start hallucinating.
Where would you start? Anywhere. "Um, from the nose head south until you
reach the gizzard. from there, take a sharp left and careen up to the
middle ear. Ah, sit and rest a while. listen to the sound of the train
upon the tracks. bored? head up the forest on your left again. Slide
down the firewall of muscles below you and dare dare dare
I hear the voice of my mother calling
> CP
Douglas
>>off to wrok [[no beat access :-(
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
step aside, and let the man go thru
----> let the man go thru
super bon-bon (soul coughing)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:29:55 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: need help, please
Comments: To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
In-Reply-To: <01BC96E9.89F962E0@tty106.softdisk.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:
> i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen
Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"? i was reading
about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.
>
Call the City Lights bookstore in San Francisco (don't have the number in
front of me, call information). City Lights was Allen's original
publisher and they are likely to have most anything he wrote in their
catologues. You can probably order it from them.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:20:04 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: San Francisco Book Signing
The other day I mentioned a book called "Three in Love," which contains
a chapter on Jack, Neal & Carolyn. The author, Barbara Foster, will be
signing her bookat the following book stores: Borders Bookstore, 400
Post St, San Francisco, on Aug. 6th at 6:00 pm; Book Passage in Corte
Madera on Aug. 6th at 7:30 pm; and at Gaia Books in Berkeley on Aug. 8th
at 7:30. Thought this might give all you party animals in San Francisco
something to talk about. For further information, contact your local
book store or Barbara Foster at bfoster@shiva.Hunter.cuny.edu.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:42:56 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: need help, please
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970723142756.5636A-100000@cap1.capaccess. org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Ryan L. Stonecipher wrote:
>
>> i was wondering if anyone knew where i could get a full version of Allen
> Ginsberg's essay "Poetry, Violence, and The Trembling Lambs"? i was reading
> about it in Schumacher's bio, and was extremely interested.
>>
I can't remember where this essay originally appeared. Probably the
easiest place to find it reprinted is in the volume, *Poetics of the New
American Poetry*, ed. Donald Allen and Warren Tallman (New York: Grove
Press, 1973). I have no idea if the book still is in print or not. If
not, try a university library and/or interlibrary loan. Ginsberg's "How
Kaddish Happened" is another excellent essay from this same book.
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:48:40 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Lines not requested by Dave
Comments: To: "CVEditions@aol.com" <CVEditions@aol.com>
Comments: cc: babu <babu@electriciti.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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CP writ:
><<
>Go home
>to unwind the mummy roll by roll
>
>
>Life is a poor host grabbing guests who came
>swirling great pleated sheets wrapping the stars
>Leaving, streaming party coils to their last car
>some on twilight's slightly twisted cane
>
>>From Charles Plymell's book, Forever Wider, Scarecrow Press 1985
>>>
>
><< end of forwarded material >>
>
like to watch slick slack
snap dragon passengers
down Hollywood Blvd.
they go ----> o{--- [
squeezing in out doors
blazing on horse and speed
the mofos spit and scream
like junkies with die-cut
Model T possibilities
>Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:18:03 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: BLAKE DREAMS & HENDRIX
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Hi Bentz,
I haven't heard from Luther or Alligator Records so it must be
pretty bad. Hope to find out more and will keep you posted. By
all means post the interview on the Hendrix list. When Luther
was young, people used to compare the two. I think he got a kick
out of that because he really dug Hendrix. I'm not sure if they
ever met.
Richard Houff
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:59:27 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))
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Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
>
> The sound and fury of kicks and joy
> ALWAYS end in darkness. This is not to say that we shouldn't > appreciate or
> find credible the other ingredients, they are authentic and courageous
> in the
> context of their, or any, time and place. But ultimately, JK's message
> might
> be paraphrased as follows: "I have overcome and put aside the illusory
> and
> meaningless distractions of the society from which I came, and have >
> gone on a
> desperate quest for meaning, through religion, experience, the very act
> of
> movement itself- but alas, I only see MORE clearly than ever the final
> futility of it all, darkness and death claim everyone, no matter how >
> wildly,
> loudly or "freely" they thrash about".
Arthur,
I am still pondering this all-encompassing darkness and despair. The
fact that yes, death claims us all, thus our lives must be full of
desperation, loss and dispair, that seems in Cody to be where Kerouac is
indeed going. But it also brings to mind the thought that without the
opposite of sadness and despair, those feelings would be meaningless. I
get the feeling that what you describe as "running away from and toward
something concurrently" still inevitably results in loss and despair. I
want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking
for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that
both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the
moments. How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about
the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death? I
don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he
thought. I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems
like an exhausting process in and of itself.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:57:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: The Starwick Episodes
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While poking around in our local library the other day, I found a small
book called "The Starwick Episodes" edited by Richard S. Kennedy. It is
a complilation of the portions that Maxwell Perkins cut out of Of Time
and the River. Frank Starwick was based upon a friend of Thomas Wolfe's
named Kenneth Raisbeck. It is in itself an interesting story. The first
episode is where Starwick introduces Eugene Gant to Ulysses. A quite
amusing section. If you have an affection for Thomas Wolfe, and would
like to understand Jack Kerouac's work and inspiration, this little book
is worth reading.
Take care, and peace to all.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:49:03 -0400
Reply-To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: hello...
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Hey, I'm a young guy from Michigan, and am really interested in
beats....if you have onything you'd like to help me with...well, i'd
appreciate it.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:07:31 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: nyc/fla beat haunts
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I will be doing some travelling shortly -- destinations NYC and southern
Florida. Can anyone email me any recommendations of Beatish or thislisty
places to check out in these locales?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:41:51 -0400
Reply-To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: looking for guidance...
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i'm sorry if i was unclear earlier...
i would like to find out if there are any beat hangouts in michigan...
or someplace i could check for them
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:45:07 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))
Mime-Version: 1.0
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(snipped like sticky bud)
> I
>want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking
>for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that
>both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the
>moments. How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about
>the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death? I
>don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he
>thought. I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems
>like an exhausting process in and of itself.
>DC
Diane,
I don't know that I'd say that the "meaning of human life is in the
moments" but I recognize the "moment" as the temporal space in which one
finds joy OR despair. I don't believe that joy and despair are "dualities
that both exist in the moment" for any one person; you sense / experience
either one or the other. The person who can consistently experience both at
the same time is a Buddha. Kerouac ran from despair, but it caught up with
him and he faced it. Kerouac ran into despair simply by moving through
life. He ran into it, he didn't run for it. Every obsessed explorer is
doomed to exhaustion.
Back to the beginning of what I quoted from you: what exactly do you
think that Kerouac was looking for? Personally, I think that he found what
he was looking for: a measure of comfort. And he was probably quite
pleased that they bottle it.
Just some thoughts,
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:55:53 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: looking for guidance...
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199707241441.HAA22804@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 24 Jul 1997, Julian Ruck wrote:
> i would like to find out if there are any beat hangouts in michigan...
> or someplace i could check for them
ann arbor, shaman drum bookstore and surrounding environs...is it state
street? this is the where i first met our list's arthur nusbaum several
years ago. also local jewel heart chapter and home of gelek rinpoche. i'm
sure arthur will have more comment on all this.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:07:38 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Diane M. Homza, "In regards"
Dear Diane:
I would like to offer some suggestions for your reading of NAKED LUNCH. It
was also the first WSB book that I read in its entirety, almost 2 decades
ago, and it can indeed be a little daunting as your first exposure to one of
the great literary and cultural figures of our waning century, and a prophet
of the next and beyond. In the intervening years since I was in your
position, I have read, seen, heard and interacted with virtually every
published item that I am aware of by or about WSB, including the great man
himself whom I visited 2&1/2 years ago. Besides my posts that are flowing at
a steady rate on this List and to some of its correspondents individually, I
have done a small amount of scholarly writing on him myself. So, I believe I
am qualified to answer your call for support and advice.
After having read NL several times and absorbed a lot of commentary on it
from many sources, I thought I had a fair handle on it. But luckily for you,
there now exists an unprecedented guide, a key to understanding this
kaleidescopic work. An audio version of the book, read by WSB himself, is
available. I have the cd version, I know there is a cassette edition also,
and it should still be available in stock or by order, it only came out about
2 years ago this fall. Although abridged, it is 3 hours long and most of the
text is there. I cannot stress how highly I recommend that you listen to WSB
read NL, it is clear, well-paced, and the very ways in which he emphasizes
and modulates words and sentences bring them into focus and out of the
fragmentary fog from which they can fade in and out of the text without this
aid. You could finish reading NL and then obtain the audio edition, or
better yet obtain and listen to it (at least twice) now, then return to your
reading. My listening to the cd's no less than doubled my comprehension and
appreciation of this critical work. But I should note something at this
point- what I've said above does not mean that you can't enjoy or benefit
from NL without hearing it read by the author, one of the greatest pleasures
I have gotten from it before or after being exposed to the cd's is to savor
the evocative and poetic phrases that have a life of their own and jump off
the page to burrow, so to speak, in your brain. Some of my favorites from
this rich treasure trove are: "The days glide by, strung on a syringe with a
long thread of blood", "Motel...Motel...Motel...broken neon
arabesque...loneliness moans across the continent like foghorns over still
oily water of tidal rivers" (one of my all-time favorite phrases in all of
literature), and so many more. As the author advises near the end, you can
re-order the pages and read them in any combination, this is a roiling,
organic work that should not be read with an attitude that it can be reined
in, amenable to cliff-note condensation.
After you have read and heard NL, I further advise you to go back and
chronologically read all the works that precede it, in this way you will see
how WSB arrived at NL and further appreciate his achievement in the context
of his life and work up to that point. The books, all still in print, are in
order as follows: JUNKY, QUEER, THE YAGE LETTERS (with Allen Ginsberg) and
THE LETTERS OF WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS (1945-1959), which were written, mostly
to AG, during the period leading up to the first publication of NL. There is
another volume of letters written by WSB to AG, many of which do not overlap
with the ones in the other, but it is hard to find. If you can locate it
(it's just titled WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS\LETTERS TO ALLEN GINSBERG 1953-1957),
I highly recommend it, some of the letters are real gems. The best letters
of all, in my opinion, are those from WSB to AG in TYL above, it is a
perversely hilarious and quintessentially Burroughsian work that is often
overlooked, short and fun to read again and again. All of these early works
are written in a lucid, easily comprehensible style, although you'll know
that only WSB could have written them. Along with the above works, you
should also read the biography LITERARY OUTLAW: THE LIFE AND TIMES OF
WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS by Ted Morgan, concurrently, before or after them. It
will give you a good initial grounding in the life and experiences from which
the works emerged, it was published in and goes up to 1988, beyond the NL
period so good enough for your purposes at this point. As with the other
major Beat figures, the life and art are particularly intertwined and mirrors
of each other. Finally, you should attempt to see the film biography
BURROUGHS, directed by Howard Brookner, originally released in 1985. Like
LO, it provides an initial overview.
I can assure you that you won't be sorry if you follow my suggestions, and
would like to know how you're coming along from time to time. It may seem as
if I've burdoned you with a semester's worth of reading, listening and
viewing, but if you catch the WSB virus, you will quickly devour these items
and want MORE. A few more NL comments to conclude for now- The introductory
essays which probably appear in whatever edition you're reading, TESTIMONY
CONCERNING A SICKNESS and LETTER FROM A MASTER ADDICT TO DANGEROUS DRUGS are
remarkable in their clarity of language and are in themselves minor
masterpieces separable from NL even as they enrich it. And your comment
about Macbeth is interesting. While an undergraduate at Harvard, WSB studied
Shakespeare, and he is familiar with and weaves quotes from the Bard in his
works and conversation. WSB arrived at his avant-garde experiments, which
become literally more cutting-edge with the cutups after NL, from a firm,
rounded educational and reading background, not to mention his myriad
experiences right up to and over the edge.
Well, enough for now. Good luck, and I envy your reading these works for the
first time, there's nothing like that first shot......
Regards,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:31:34 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: To Sleep. To Sleep.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ma' Pa'
il bacino
della
buonanotte,
Ma' Pa'
a kiss before
going to sleep
in the nite
Ma' Pa'
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:11:59 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: no-time july
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Spoke to Bob Rosenthal briefly today. Strange to think of that
three-month-distant Spring 2am NYC goodbye, and ran into this account of it:
--
Allen Ginsberg
April 4 Friday
That evening Peter Hale calls and asks me to come quickly, Allen is in a
coma, dying. Pull on my sneakers and taxi down, trying to keep calm
breathing, trying to arrive in state of peace. 15 minutes after Pete's call
he opens the door to the loft and I go in to join those already gathered. I
went and embraced big Peter--Orlovsky-and Eugene, Allen's brother. About 20
friends talking in low voices, looking lost, comforting each other.
After being diagnosed with inoperable liver cancer the previous Friday at
Beth Israel Hospital, Allen had been told he had maybe 2-5 months to live.
When I heard the news, for some reason I felt strongly that it would not be
that long--I felt that he would go very soon. He had come back home
Wednesday in good spirits, organizing things as ever, making plans for the
coming days. But someone, I forget who, had said Allen personally felt that
he had very little time left. A month or two, he thought. So Wednesday he
was busy, writing and making phone calls to his friends all over the world,
saying good-bye. Amiri Baraka said Allen called him and said "I'm dying, do
you need any money?" But Thursday he was much weaker, he could hobble from
bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in the
middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!
"Funny," he says, "never done that before." Said he was very tired and
wanted to go to sleep. He fell asleep and later that night had a seizure and
slipped into a coma. He was alone. In the morning Bob Rosenthal discovered
him unconscious and called the Hospice doctor who came and told him that
Allen had most likely had a stroke and had hours to live. The task of
notifying family and friends began. Everyone had feared that as word spread,
there would be a huge throng appearing at the loft, but that wasn't the
case. People came and went quietly during the afternoon. Bob, Pete Hale,
Bill Morgan and Kaye Wright, the office staff, were busy constantly at the
phones making and receiving calls. Shelley Rosenthal and Rani Singh helping
with everything that needed doing. Eugene and several nieces and nephews of
Allen's consoling each other. Larry Rivers down from his apartment upstairs,
wandering around forlornly in his pink white and blue striped pajamas.
George and Anna Condo and their little girl. Francesco and Alba Clemente,
beloved friends of Allen's. Patti Smith sitting in tears with Oliver Ray and
her young daughter. Bob and Shelly's sons Aliah and Isaac. Mark Israel and
David Greenberg, two of Allen's young boyfriends. Philip Glass and June
Leaf. Simon Pettet. Andrew Wylie. Roy Lichtenstein. Steven Bornstein, who
had flown up from Florida. A few others, I don't remember who all was there.
I went to the back of the loft and Raymond Foye stood looking pale and so
sad. I told him he must be very blessed, he had spent so much time giving
support and love to the dying--Henry Geldzahler, Huncke, Harry Smith. "Yes,
but this is the big one, the hardest," he said. Allen lay in a narrow
hospital bed beside the windows overlooking 14th street. There were two
almost invisible tubes coming out of his nose, attached to a portable small
oxygen tank on the floor. His head was raised up on a couple of big striped
pillows and he looked tiny and frail, thin arms with bruised veins from
hospital tests sticking out from his Jewel Heart T-shirt. Head to the side,
slight shadows under the eyes. I had walked through the loft, people
whispering greetings, hugging, telling me all that had happened. But still
not really prepared for the sight of him. The windows were open, curtains
waving softly. His breathing was deep, slow, very labored, a snoring sound.
"Hey, Allen, wake up!" Joel, his cousin and doctor, was there constantly,
and a young lady nurse sat in the corner reading, occasionally getting up to
check on heart and pulse, or administer morphine for congestion. Gelek
Rinpoche said he thought Allen might last the night. Joel didn't think so. A
few chairs were set up nearby, and there was the big white leather Salvation
Army sofa of which he was so proud. People sat, or at intervals went to sit
beside the bed and hold his hand or whisper to him and kiss him, his hand or
cheek or head. An altar had been set up along one side of the loft and Gelek
Rinpoche and the other monks sat chanting and praying, the sound so soothing
constantly in the background, bells tinkling. I had a little throw-away
Woolworth's camera, and Gregory Corso asked me to take a picture of him with
Allen. He knelt beside the cot and placed his arm over Allen "like that
picture, or statue, of Adonais, right?" There was a medical chart, a picture
of the human skeleton, hanging over the bed. Bob said Allen had put it
there, half as a joke, half as a reminder. And Allen's beautiful picture of
Whitman gazing down from the wall at the other dear bearded poet in the bed
below. As it got late, many went home to try and catch a little sleep. It
was around 11. Bob and Pete were just playing it by ear, deciding that
anyone who wanted to stay would find a place , on the floor if necessary.
Peter Orlovsky was taking photos and I felt a little uncomfortable, the idea
of taking pictures at this time, but I figured, hey, if it was you, Allen'd
be the first one through the door camera in hand! Eventually, Eugene leaned
over, held Allen's hand, whispered "Good-bye little Allen. Good-bye little
Allen. I'll be back later. See you soon." He kissed him and left. And
Gregory-Gregorio-too, who told us to call him at once if there was any
change. Joel had said that there was no way to know how long it would be,
minutes or hours, surely not days. I had felt from the minute I saw Allen
there that it would be very soon. I sat at the foot of the bed where I had
spent the last few hours, holding his feet, rubbing them gently from time to
time. An occasional cigarette break- the little guest bedroom by the office
area was set up as the smoker's lounge. Bob and Pete and Bill were as strong
and remarkable as ever, supporting everyone, keeping a sense of humor, and
constantly dealing with the dozens of phonecalls, faxes, and the visitors as
they came and went. They'd had a few days for the news to sink in, but they
were dealing with -literally- hundreds of people over the phone or in person
who had just found out and were in the first stages of stunned, disbelieving
grief.
I had remained at the bedside and it was now after midnight. I could not
believe he still hung on, the breathing so difficult, the lungs slowly
filling with fluid. Those who had been there all day were exhausted. It was
down to a few now. Bob and Pete and Bill Morgan. Peter Orlovsky so bravely
dealing with his pain, strong Beverly holding his hand. David and Mark.
Patti and Oliver, there together all day trying to be brave and sometimes
giving way to red eyed tears. Simon Pettet sitting beside me for hours.
Allen's feet felt cooler than they had been earlier. I sat and thought of
the 33 years I'd known him, lived with him, my second father. And still he
breathed, but softer now.
At about 2 o'clock, everyone decided to try and get some rest. Bob and Joel
lay down in Allen's big bed near the cot where he lay, everyone found a sofa
or somewhere to stretch out.
Simon and I sat, just watching his face. Everyone was amazed at how
beautiful he looked-all lines of stress and age smoothed- he looked
patriarchal and strong. I had never seen him so handsome. The funny looking
little boy had grown into this most wonderful looking man. He would have
encouraged photos if he had known how wonderful he looked! But so tiny! He
seemed as fragile as a baby in his little T-shirt.
The loft was very quiet. Most were resting, half-asleep. Suddenly Allen
began to shake, a small convulsion wracked his body. I called out, and Joel
and Bob sat up and hurried over. I called louder, and everyone else came
running. It was about 2:15. Joel examined him, pulse, etc., and said that
his vital signs were considerably slower, he had had another seizure. The
breathing went on, weaker. His feet were cooler. Everyone sat or stood close
to the little bed, stroking and kissing him softly. Peter Orlovsky bent over
and kissed his head, saying, "Good-bye Darling."
Suddenly then a remarkable thing happened. A tremor went through him, and
slowly, impossibly, he began to raise his head. He weakly tried to sit up,
and his left arm lifted and extended. Then his eyes opened very slowly and
very wide. The pupils were wildly dilated. I thought I saw a look of
confusion or bewilderment. His head began to turn very slowly and his eyes
seemed to glance around him, gazing on each of us in turn. His eyes were so
deep, so dark, but Bob said that they were empty of sight. His mouth opened,
and we all heard as he seemed to struggle to say something, but only a soft
low sound, a weak "Aaah," came from him. Then his eyes began to close and he
sank back weakly onto the pillow. The eyes shut fully. He continued, then,
to struggle through a few more gasping breaths, and his mouth fell open in
an O. Joel said that these were the final moments, the O of the mouth the
sign of approaching death. I still continued to stroke his feet and thin
little legs, but the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is to not touch the body
after death, so I kissed him one final time and then let go.
At 2:39, Joel checked for vital signs and announced that the heart, so much
stronger than anyone knew, had stopped beating. A painless and gentle death.
The thin blue sheet was pulled up to his chin, and Peter Hale brought over a
tiny cup and spoon, and placed a few drops of a dark liquid between Allen's
lips. It was part of the Buddhist ritual-- the "last food." Bob put his hand
over Allen's eyes and said the Sh'ma. We all sat quietly in the dim light,
each with our own thoughts, saying good-bye.
--Rose Pettet
New York
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 23:04:57 -0500
Reply-To: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ryan L. Stonecipher" <r_stonecipher@GEOCITIES.COM>
Subject: Re: no-time july
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
thank you so much for this reminder of poet father buddha glorious =
man...i never met him, but fell like kindred spirit...want to reach out =
touch his hand in the void...will miss him...
"Strange now to think of you, gone..."
AG, Kaddish
Ryan.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Stutz [SMTP:stutz@DSL.ORG]
Sent: Thursday, 24 July, 1997 6:12 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: no-time july
Spoke to Bob Rosenthal briefly today. Strange to think of that
three-month-distant Spring 2am NYC goodbye, and ran into this account of =
it:
--
Allen Ginsberg
April 4 Friday
That evening Peter Hale calls and asks me to come quickly, Allen is in a
coma, dying. Pull on my sneakers and taxi down, trying to keep calm
breathing, trying to arrive in state of peace. 15 minutes after Pete's =
call
he opens the door to the loft and I go in to join those already =
gathered. I
went and embraced big Peter--Orlovsky-and Eugene, Allen's brother. About =
20
friends talking in low voices, looking lost, comforting each other.
After being diagnosed with inoperable liver cancer the previous Friday =
at
Beth Israel Hospital, Allen had been told he had maybe 2-5 months to =
live.
When I heard the news, for some reason I felt strongly that it would not =
be
that long--I felt that he would go very soon. He had come back home
Wednesday in good spirits, organizing things as ever, making plans for =
the
coming days. But someone, I forget who, had said Allen personally felt =
that
he had very little time left. A month or two, he thought. So Wednesday =
he
was busy, writing and making phone calls to his friends all over the =
world,
saying good-bye. Amiri Baraka said Allen called him and said "I'm dying, =
do
you need any money?" But Thursday he was much weaker, he could hobble =
from
bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in =
the
middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!
"Funny," he says, "never done that before." Said he was very tired and
wanted to go to sleep. He fell asleep and later that night had a seizure =
and
slipped into a coma. He was alone. In the morning Bob Rosenthal =
discovered
him unconscious and called the Hospice doctor who came and told him that
Allen had most likely had a stroke and had hours to live. The task of
notifying family and friends began. Everyone had feared that as word =
spread,
there would be a huge throng appearing at the loft, but that wasn't the
case. People came and went quietly during the afternoon. Bob, Pete Hale,
Bill Morgan and Kaye Wright, the office staff, were busy constantly at =
the
phones making and receiving calls. Shelley Rosenthal and Rani Singh =
helping
with everything that needed doing. Eugene and several nieces and nephews =
of
Allen's consoling each other. Larry Rivers down from his apartment =
upstairs,
wandering around forlornly in his pink white and blue striped pajamas.
George and Anna Condo and their little girl. Francesco and Alba =
Clemente,
beloved friends of Allen's. Patti Smith sitting in tears with Oliver Ray =
and
her young daughter. Bob and Shelly's sons Aliah and Isaac. Mark Israel =
and
David Greenberg, two of Allen's young boyfriends. Philip Glass and June
Leaf. Simon Pettet. Andrew Wylie. Roy Lichtenstein. Steven Bornstein, =
who
had flown up from Florida. A few others, I don't remember who all was =
there.
I went to the back of the loft and Raymond Foye stood looking pale and =
so
sad. I told him he must be very blessed, he had spent so much time =
giving
support and love to the dying--Henry Geldzahler, Huncke, Harry Smith. =
"Yes,
but this is the big one, the hardest," he said. Allen lay in a narrow
hospital bed beside the windows overlooking 14th street. There were two
almost invisible tubes coming out of his nose, attached to a portable =
small
oxygen tank on the floor. His head was raised up on a couple of big =
striped
pillows and he looked tiny and frail, thin arms with bruised veins from
hospital tests sticking out from his Jewel Heart T-shirt. Head to the =
side,
slight shadows under the eyes. I had walked through the loft, people
whispering greetings, hugging, telling me all that had happened. But =
still
not really prepared for the sight of him. The windows were open, =
curtains
waving softly. His breathing was deep, slow, very labored, a snoring =
sound.
"Hey, Allen, wake up!" Joel, his cousin and doctor, was there =
constantly,
and a young lady nurse sat in the corner reading, occasionally getting =
up to
heck on heart and pulse, or administer morphine for congestion. Gelek
Rinpoche said he thought Allen might last the night. Joel didn't think =
so. A
few chairs were set up nearby, and there was the big white leather =
Salvation
Army sofa of which he was so proud. People sat, or at intervals went to =
sit
beside the bed and hold his hand or whisper to him and kiss him, his =
hand or
cheek or head. An altar had been set up along one side of the loft and =
Gelek
Rinpoche and the other monks sat chanting and praying, the sound so =
soothing
constantly in the background, bells tinkling. I had a little throw-away
Woolworth's camera, and Gregory Corso asked me to take a picture of him =
with
Allen. He knelt beside the cot and placed his arm over Allen "like that
picture, or statue, of Adonais, right?" There was a medical chart, a =
picture
of the human skeleton, hanging over the bed. Bob said Allen had put it
there, half as a joke, half as a reminder. And Allen's beautiful picture =
of
Whitman gazing down from the wall at the other dear bearded poet in the =
bed
below. As it got late, many went home to try and catch a little sleep. =
It
was around 11. Bob and Pete were just playing it by ear, deciding that
anyone who wanted to stay would find a place , on the floor if =
necessary.
Peter Orlovsky was taking photos and I felt a little uncomfortable, the =
idea
of taking pictures at this time, but I figured, hey, if it was you, =
Allen'd
be the first one through the door camera in hand! Eventually, Eugene =
leaned
over, held Allen's hand, whispered "Good-bye little Allen. Good-bye =
little
Allen. I'll be back later. See you soon." He kissed him and left. And
Gregory-Gregorio-too, who told us to call him at once if there was any
change. Joel had said that there was no way to know how long it would =
be,
minutes or hours, surely not days. I had felt from the minute I saw =
Allen
there that it would be very soon. I sat at the foot of the bed where I =
had
spent the last few hours, holding his feet, rubbing them gently from =
time to
time. An occasional cigarette break- the little guest bedroom by the =
office
area was set up as the smoker's lounge. Bob and Pete and Bill were as =
strong
and remarkable as ever, supporting everyone, keeping a sense of humor, =
and
constantly dealing with the dozens of phonecalls, faxes, and the =
visitors as
they came and went. They'd had a few days for the news to sink in, but =
they
were dealing with -literally- hundreds of people over the phone or in =
person
who had just found out and were in the first stages of stunned, =
disbelieving
grief.
I had remained at the bedside and it was now after midnight. I could not
believe he still hung on, the breathing so difficult, the lungs slowly
filling with fluid. Those who had been there all day were exhausted. It =
was
down to a few now. Bob and Pete and Bill Morgan. Peter Orlovsky so =
bravely
dealing with his pain, strong Beverly holding his hand. David and Mark.
Patti and Oliver, there together all day trying to be brave and =
sometimes
giving way to red eyed tears. Simon Pettet sitting beside me for hours.
Allen's feet felt cooler than they had been earlier. I sat and thought =
of
the 33 years I'd known him, lived with him, my second father. And still =
he
breathed, but softer now.
At about 2 o'clock, everyone decided to try and get some rest. Bob and =
Joel
lay down in Allen's big bed near the cot where he lay, everyone found a =
sofa
or somewhere to stretch out.
Simon and I sat, just watching his face. Everyone was amazed at how
beautiful he looked-all lines of stress and age smoothed- he looked
patriarchal and strong. I had never seen him so handsome. The funny =
looking
little boy had grown into this most wonderful looking man. He would have
encouraged photos if he had known how wonderful he looked! But so tiny! =
He
seemed as fragile as a baby in his little T-shirt.
The loft was very quiet. Most were resting, half-asleep. Suddenly Allen
began to shake, a small convulsion wracked his body. I called out, and =
Joel
and Bob sat up and hurried over. I called louder, and everyone else came
running. It was about 2:15. Joel examined him, pulse, etc., and said =
that
his vital signs were considerably slower, he had had another seizure. =
The
breathing went on, weaker. His feet were cooler. Everyone sat or stood =
close
to the little bed, stroking and kissing him softly. Peter Orlovsky bent =
over
and kissed his head, saying, "Good-bye Darling."
Suddenly then a remarkable thing happened. A tremor went through him, =
and
slowly, impossibly, he began to raise his head. He weakly tried to sit =
up,
and his left arm lifted and extended. Then his eyes opened very slowly =
and
very wide. The pupils were wildly dilated. I thought I saw a look of
confusion or bewilderment. His head began to turn very slowly and his =
eyes
seemed to glance around him, gazing on each of us in turn. His eyes were =
so
deep, so dark, but Bob said that they were empty of sight. His mouth =
opened,
and we all heard as he seemed to struggle to say something, but only a =
soft
low sound, a weak "Aaah," came from him. Then his eyes began to close =
and he
sank back weakly onto the pillow. The eyes shut fully. He continued, =
then,
to struggle through a few more gasping breaths, and his mouth fell open =
in
an O. Joel said that these were the final moments, the O of the mouth =
the
sign of approaching death. I still continued to stroke his feet and thin
little legs, but the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is to not touch the body
after death, so I kissed him one final time and then let go.
At 2:39, Joel checked for vital signs and announced that the heart, so =
much
stronger than anyone knew, had stopped beating. A painless and gentle =
death.
The thin blue sheet was pulled up to his chin, and Peter Hale brought =
over a
tiny cup and spoon, and placed a few drops of a dark liquid between =
Allen's
lips. It was part of the Buddhist ritual-- the "last food." Bob put his =
hand
over Allen's eyes and said the Sh'ma. We all sat quietly in the dim =
light,
each with our own thoughts, saying good-bye.
--Rose Pettet
New York
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:07:37 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: where is gregory corso?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hello,
i am a new subscriber to the beat list but i've been reading beat
literature for 6 years now. My favorite is Burroughs but the rest of the
hipsters are just as good. Where is Gregory Corso? I never hear anything
about him or if he's even alive. A prof in college once took a class in
Albany where Corso was teaching. The time period was the 60s and the
faculty back then had to sign a petition about not striking or something
due to student protests. Well Gregory didn't want to sign the document
and consequently, was thrown out of the college. Just a little anecdote
for all of you.
jason
"who is the other that walks beside you?"- brion gysin.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 01:05:39 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: winged victory (1997)
Comments: To: vpaul@gwdi.com
Comments: cc: agit8@hotmail.com, 102057.1047@compuserve.com, esholwitz@aol.com,
boime@humnet.ucla.edu, bstoffma@lausd.k12.ca.us, azulado@aol.com,
ChrisHein@aol.com, Dfroley@aol.com, double d <dbldd@hotmail.com>,
thau@hotwired.com, eport@hto-d.usc.edu, EugeneAhn@mwp-online.com,
gershwin@cinenet.net, Raminocs@aol.com, Jacrosby1@aol.com,
6500ljn@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu, Marioka7@aol.com, ignatz@sirius.com,
oktober@post.cis.smu.edu, "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@oees.com>,
piers@humnet.ucla.edu, babel@postmodern.com, googie@wam.umd.edu,
tpreece@pacbell.net, mpener@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
In-Reply-To: <33D7903E.7F48@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
cracked looking glass
a symbol of greek art
the vodka lady Jello
no suit <<nice>> red ass
tropical berry tits
black mass mulligans
that laughed a lot
and said no sir pool party
and went about her merry o- --->
business wings extended <----- \
transporting out of sight \\
caw ca ca caw
<---- o ------>
\ /
[ ]
p
\\
2 sir, w/he/art
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Winged_victory.html
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:33:51 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: where is gregory corso?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> A prof in college once took a class in
>Albany where Corso was teaching. The time period was the 60s and the
>faculty back then had to sign a petition about not striking or something
>due to student protests. Well Gregory didn't want to sign the document
>and consequently, was thrown out of the college. Just a little anecdote
>for all of you.
> jason
Jason,
No info here on Corso other than he is alive. Just a note though: The
incident you refer to above I believe happened at SUNY Buffalo in late
60's, not Albany. Unless same happened there too.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:40:40 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: where is gregory corso?
Comments: To: peent@SERVTECH.COM
In-Reply-To: <v01530500630c52285d9d@[204.181.15.86]> from "Michael Czarnecki"
at Jul 25, 97 07:33:51 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> No info here on Corso other than he is alive. Just a note though: The
> incident you refer to above I believe happened at SUNY Buffalo in late
> 60's, not Albany. Unless same happened there too.
He still wanders into downtown NY poetry events, and if he doesn't
like what he hears or disagrees with something the reader says,
he will usually say so. This is one of the reasons poetry is
still fun in New York City. He sometimes brings his family to
events, including his young son.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
| |
| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
| -- Jack Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:21:57 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: where is gregory corso?
In-Reply-To: <199707251340.GAA26385@netcom.netcom.com>
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Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's
and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work
done on Gregory Corso? Doing quick searches at our library reveals
nothing but that is far from conclusive. If there hasn't, why not? Why
does Corso remain (not forgotten certainly but) ignored? I'd heard
something from someone who heard from the man himself (though highly
intoxicated at the time so possibly exaggerating) there was a book of his
collected works coming out. Anybody know anything? When I'd heard that I
expected a reemergence of all-things-Corso (worked for Ginsy), but nothing
yet. An internet search brings up maybe two or three entries not at
Literay Kicks. Sad, sad.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:25:46 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: where is gregory corso?
Comments: To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.96.970725101456.10703B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>
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On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Alex Howard wrote:
> Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's
> and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work
> done on Gregory Corso?
A writer in LA was working on one about 3 years ago. I haven't heard
anything new about this since (this came up on the list sometime back).
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:48:15 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: where is gregory corso?
Comments: To: kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.96.970725101456.10703B-100000@xx.acs.appstate.edu>
from "Alex Howard" at Jul 25, 97 10:21:57 am
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> Speaking of Corso, I've been wondering (after all the talk of Kerouac's
> and Ginsberg's biography); has there been any serious biographical work
> done on Gregory Corso? Doing quick searches at our library reveals
> nothing but that is far from conclusive. If there hasn't, why not? Why
I agree! He is one of the most interesting Beat poets, and his
life story has more than its share of drama. There've
been biographies of Snyder, Ferlinghetti, Neal Cassady, etc. --
why not Corso?
One possible reason: he's notoriously unpredictable and ornery
to work with, which means a biographer would be taking on
a pretty scary task here. Any takers here? I bet it'd get
published, if anyone's got the guts to write it.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
| |
| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
| -- Jack Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:40:39 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))
James,
in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is
nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently. even Einstein and
later physicists have proved that time is really relative to the observer;
ergo a construct of the observer, not a law of nature. if that is the case,
then there are no separate moments - all things exists simultaneously.
i'm certainly no Buddha, nor a boddhisatva, regardless of how much i would
wish to be. but i have many, many times felt joy and despair together.
duality is the constant nature of this physical life... take a good look at
quantum theory - things are there....... but they're NOT.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of James William Marshall
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 1997 7:45 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond (&D.Carter&J.Stauffer))
(snipped like sticky bud)
> I
>want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking
>for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that
>both exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the
>moments. How can anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about
>the joys of being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death? I
>don't need to see brightness but only to understand a little more how he
>thought. I see him as running toward and away from despair, which seems
>like an exhausting process in and of itself.
>DC
Diane,
I don't know that I'd say that the "meaning of human life is in the
moments" but I recognize the "moment" as the temporal space in which one
finds joy OR despair. I don't believe that joy and despair are "dualities
that both exist in the moment" for any one person; you sense / experience
either one or the other. The person who can consistently experience both at
the same time is a Buddha. Kerouac ran from despair, but it caught up with
him and he faced it. Kerouac ran into despair simply by moving through
life. He ran into it, he didn't run for it. Every obsessed explorer is
doomed to exhaustion.
Back to the beginning of what I quoted from you: what exactly do you
think that Kerouac was looking for? Personally, I think that he found what
he was looking for: a measure of comfort. And he was probably quite
pleased that they bottle it.
Just some thoughts,
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:15:54 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond
(&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 04:40 PM 7/25/97 UT, you wrote:
>James,
>
>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is
>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.
I am curious. What Buddhist teachings actually say this. Where does it
come from?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:35:12 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond
(&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 04:40 PM 7/25/97 UT, you wrote:
> >James,
> >
> >in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there
is
> >nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.
>
> I am curious. What Buddhist teachings actually say this. Where does it
> come from?
It comes from the wind blowing through the trees from the flower smiling
at the world. It is liberation from time - the confusion between
eternal and everlasting - before and forever are abstractions,
illusions. What can exist besides the present?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:08:47 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: where is gregory corso?
In-Reply-To: <199707251448.HAA07386@netcom.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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speaking of mr corso, ran into this bit of history and forecasting future
clip from the man hisself
pot
fragment from a long poem
god dreamed pot as he dreamed the rose.
pot will moses man out of bondage.
pot is god's needle in the haystack.
those who get pricked by pot
will have a natural ball
destiny has it that all man
be ultimately =high stoned
bombed
Zonked!
who'll be the first to drop a joint on the
president's lap?
Will they scream assassin?
even though he fires his security guards
and hires narcotic guards
he'll have to surrender to the
heavenly arrival of POT--
a bombed president will dig food
especially sweets
like never before.
when pot arrives the liquormen of the world
will squrim & snarl & scheme
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:12:17 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Buddhism (was Re: Kerouac (was For Chris Drummond
(&D.Carter&J.Stauffer)))
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199707251815.LAA27002@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>James,
>>
>>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that
there is
>>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently.
>
>
>I am curious. What Buddhist teachings actually say this. Where does it
>come from?
Timothy--I would try the Buddha's discourse on the Four Noble Truths (also
sometimes translated as the Four Holy Truths), which would be a
foundational text on the importance of present moment consciousness to
various Buddhisms. Another source that could help would be the Heart
Sutra. Of all the translations and commentaries, Thich Nhat Hahn's might
offer one of the better Westernized versions (with much to say on the
importance of the present moment). Thich Nhat Hahn's commentary on the
Heart Sutra is available from Parallax Press (Berkeley), and is titled *The
Heart of Understanding*. These aren't the only texts to go for this
question, though, and I bet others on the list could offer even better
sources. Hope this helps.
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:18 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Joy and Despair
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>James,
>
>in both hinduism and buddhism the notion, as i understand it, is that there is
>nothing but now and that all things exist concurrently. even Einstein and
>later physicists have proved that time is really relative to the observer;
>ergo a construct of the observer, not a law of nature. if that is the case,
>then there are no separate moments - all things exists simultaneously.
>
>i'm certainly no Buddha, nor a boddhisatva, regardless of how much i would
>wish to be. but i have many, many times felt joy and despair together.
>duality is the constant nature of this physical life... take a good look at
>quantum theory - things are there....... but they're NOT.
>
>ciao,
>sherri
Sherri,
I think that indifference and / or confusion are words which encompass the
simultaneous feeling of joy and despair. And the experience of emotions is
a little different than the existence of time and matter. A metaphysician
would argue that there is no such thing as the present since it's an ever
fleeting instant; the past is memory (subjective) and the future is
speculative. A logician would probably say that you run into problems when
you combine the propositions "all thing exist(s) simultaneously" and "things
are there....... but they're NOT." Do things exist, however small,
or is it all illusory, or perhaps a healthy combination. As for a "constant
nature of this physical life", I'd have to say (cliched) that change is the
only one.
And why the emphasis on duality? Why not polyality? If you're going to
argue for both sides of the coin, why not argue for the edges too?
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:29:39 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re[2]: where is gregory corso?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>heavenly arrival of POT--
>a bombed president will dig food
>especially sweets
Big Mac, Filet o'Fish, Quarter Pounder, French Fries, Icy Coke,
Big Shakes, Sundae's and apple pie!!!!! I'm not a Clintonite,
I'm not an anti-Clintonite...I'm a realist....before I sobered
up I never claimed I only sniffed the cork!
>like never before.
>when pot arrives the liquormen of the world
>will squrim & snarl & scheme
Who bought LBJ that damned milk truck anyway? Driving around drunk
harassing the neighbors, probably held a dog out the window by its
ears to announce his arrival.
I'm back, after an e-mail disaster of epic proportions. I have missed
all of you and hope you will welcome me back into your loving arms.
love and lilies from the foot of AG's "Rapture Mountain",
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:52:48 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Joy and Despair
Comments: To: dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET
On Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:03:18 -0700 James William Marshall
<dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET> writes:
> Sherri,
> I think that indifference and / or confusion are words which encompass
the
> simultaneous feeling of joy and despair.
i think you are missing the essence of the duality that buddhism (and
consequently kerouac) attempt to address. this may be the source of
confusion. i think the simultaneous occurrence of joy and despair is not
only possible, but an understanding of it is necessary to understand
kerouac's purpose. i don't think this duality can be written off as
"confusion". To do so sells buddhism and kerouac short.
> And the experience of emotions is a little different than the existence
of time and >matter. A metaphysician would argue that there is no such
thing as the present >since it's an ever fleeting instant; the past is
memory (subjective) and the future is
>speculative.
so what. all that gives us is a neo-cartesian philosophy which strives
to disprove the existence of anything. this gets us nowhere.
> A logician would probably say that you run into problems when you
combine the >propositions "all thing exist(s) simultaneously" and
"things are there....... but >they're NOT." Do things exist,
however small, or is it all illusory, or perhaps a >healthy combination.
As for a "constant nature of this physical life", I'd have to say
>(cliched) that change is the only one.
you are taking the beautiful simplicity of buddhism and beating it down
with the hammer of logic. i admit that if you logically look at
buddhism, you will find every imaginable form of inconsistency. it is
not something that tries to or wants to exist in a domain of logic. it
subverts logic. and it is logic. and it rejects logic.
logic would also have some problems with the sound of one hand clapping.
i would suggest trying to ignore these "logical tests" when trying to
understand buddhism. it is sure to create more problems than solve them.
> And why the emphasis on duality? Why not polyality? If you're going
to
>argue for both sides of the coin, why not argue for the edges too?
>
> James M.
because understanding that there is simultaneously good and evil (to take
a trite example) in every yin and yang is central to understanding not
only buddhism, but eastern societies as well. i think buddhism _deals_
with the edges of the coin too. it's all about everything being
everything simultaneously (i believe that's how someone recently put
it.). that is all of the coin as far as i can tell. however, i don't
want to admit that buddhism _argues_ at all. it's purpose is
enlightenment, not debate or even discourse. looking at it through the
glasses of western ethnocentrism is never going to give a clear picture
of buddhism, hinduism, china, japan, india, etc.
just my opinion,
-brian kirchhoff
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:44:30 -0400
Reply-To: Chimera@WEBTV.NET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Introduction
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MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Hello, Everyone:
I've been lurking for a bit, and
have enjoyed your postings very much.
This is my first post to the list, and It's
with some nervousness that I'd like to
ask if it would be possible to steer me
in the right direction in terms of beat reading material.
I'm aware that that request must
be made often, and with all respect to the
list, I've no wish to disturb any current threads, so if possible, I'd
appreciate any
members e-mailing me privately with their
suggestions.
Very brief bio:
I'm 32, born 6/3/65 from Bronx, N.Y. I live
with my girlfriend, Nancy (28) and our son, Adam, who will be 4 August
29th. I
work for the U.S. postal service as a mail
handler. I enjoy reading and writing poetry, as well as all types of
fantasy literature and rock and jazz music.
I wish you all a wonderful
weekend. Take care and have fun (in
whatever order you like).
My best,
Eric Blanco
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:47:05 -0400
Reply-To: Chimera@WEBTV.NET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Untitled Poem Written 4/14/91
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
The kids invade the wrong neigborhood
Packs like young wolves
They move with deathly grace
Stop-motion rhythm
In the eyes of the smoke numbed
Shattered store windows
A nile of broken glass and abandoned cars
One lone girl,who,taking a short cut home
Will never make it there
An abandoned building
A shooting gallery filled with dying targets
The kids find sex and mystic transport
In the arms of sweet addiction
Friends sleep beneath a sea of grass
Barely remembered but revered
Chimera '91
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 16:53:29 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Buddhism & Me
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
First off, I want to state that I don't know all that much about Buddhism
and in no way meant to denigrate a religion or its adherents. In responding
to Sherri's post, I only meant to address what I saw as a fruitless ground:
attempting to mix logic and science with a religious way of viewing the self
and the world. The arguments presented in my last post were simply
arguments; I used phrases like "a metaphysician would argue" and "a logician
would probably say" hoping that people wouldn't jump to assumptions about my
spiritual beliefs or personal philosoph(y)ies.
I still don't understand how someone can experience two diametrically
opposed emotions simultaneously (I can imagine how one might go back and
forth between the feelings quite quickly), but I'm willing to take your word
that it's possible. Perhaps as I learn more about Buddhism, which is a goal
of mine, I will come to understand. I apologize to anyone whom I may have
offended. If anyone could give me some specific examples of how the Beats
used this joy / despair simultaneous duality, I might be able to comprehend
this thread a little better. (Oh, and now that I've had some time to think
about it, I believe that I may have experienced this duality but it was when
my mind had been chemically altered and I don't know if that really
counts... time being a little skewed and all).
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 23:09:55 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Buddhism & Me
Confusious Say:
They have all answered correctly; that is, each in their own nature.
I say:
Take up the slack, Jack.
Don't mean to be coy
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:07:45 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Hunter S. Thompson/NY Times (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:13:08 -0400
From: Ron P Whitehead
To: BOHEMIAN
Subject: Hunter S. Thompson/NY Times
LETTERS OF THE YOUNG AUTHOR (He Saved Them All)
Books of the Times
THE NEW YORK TIMES
THE LIVING ARTS section
Friday, July 25, 1997
by Richard Bernstein
One thing that this collection of letters makes clear at the outset is
that Hunter S. Thompson, he of the "Fear and Loathing" books, for whom
the phrase "gonzo journalist" was invented, has always burned to carve
his initials onto the collective awareness. What other kind of person
would, beginning in his teen years, make carbon copies of every letter he
wrote - to his mother, his Army friends and commanding officers, his
girlfriends, his various agents and editors - specifically in the hope
that they would be published?
Mr. Thompson, by dint of hard work and enormous talent, has gotten his
wish. Edited by Douglas Brinkley and adorned with a sparkling essay by
the novelist William J. Kennedy, "The Proud Highway" takes Mr. Thompson's
caustic, furious, funny, look-at-me correspondence through 1967, when the
author, having arrived on the scene with his book "Hell's Angels," was
30. It is noteworthy that although just one in seven of the relevant
cache of letters was included, this book, labeled "The Fear and Loathing
Letters, Volume I," weighs in at just under 700 pages - and there are
still 30 more years to go. Even some of the photographs of Mr. Thompson
were taken by the author himself, self-portraits of the writer at work
and at play. Manifestly, this is a man who, while anti-snobbish to a
fault, abusively contemptuous of self-promotion and pretension, had a
powerful need to make a record of himself and to make that record public.
Fortunately, the maverick vibrancy and originality of the record's
creator fully redeems what might otherwise have been an act of
egomaniacal temerity. The Hunter S. Thompson that emerges in this
collection of his letters, complemented by fragments of his other
writings, is very much the unrestrained, strenuously nonconformist, Lone
Ranger journalist who achieved cult status long ago.
One thinks of Mr. Thompson a bit as one thinks of the hero of George
Macdonald Fraser's fictional Flashman books, Flashman rampaging like Don
Quixote through the major events of the 19th century, making them his
own. Mr. Hunter rampaged through the 60's and 70's of this century, not
reporting on them in any conventional sense but using them as raw
material for the text that was his own life.
Taken together, as Mr. Brinkley correctly points out in his editor's
note, the Thompson correspondence is "an informal and offbeat history of
two decades in American life," the two decades in question having
produced the counterculture that Mr. Thompson both chronicled and helped
produce. The overriding sensibility, inherited from H. L. Mencken,
consists of an eloquent, hyperbolic impatience with the supposed
mediocrity of American life, its Rotarian culture, its complacency and
its pieties.
"Young people of America, awake from your slumber of indolence and
harken the call of the future!" the 18-year-old Mr. Thompson wrote in the
first piece reproduced in this book, taken from the yearbook of the
Louisville Male High School in Kentucky. "I'm beginning to think you're a
phony, Graham," Mr. Hunter writes eight years later in 1963, the Graham
in question being Philip L. Graham, president of the Washington Post
Company. Mr. Hunter, a freelancer writing articles from South America,
was moved to a rage by an article in Newsweek, owned by The Washington
Post, that was critical of The National Observer, which was publishing
his work.
This, evidently, was a guy who took no guff, whose Ayn Rand-influenced
determination to do things his way required not only that he make no
compromises but that he be seen as making none. Graham invited Mr. Hunter
to "write me a somewhat less breathless letter, in which you tell me
about yourself," and Mr. Thompson did so. He compliments his
correspondent on the "cavalier tone that in some circles would pass for a
very high kind of elan" but warns him against interpreting his letter as
"a devious means of applying for a job on the assembly line at Newsweek,
or covering speeches for The Washington Post. I sign what I write, and I
mean to keep on signing it."
By 1967, Mr. Thompson, who has risen in the world, is blasting others
for nincompoopery and knavishness. "I have every honest and serious
intention of wreaking a thoroughly personal and honest vengeance on Scott
Meredith himself, in the form of cracking his teeth with a knotty stick
and rupturing every other bone and organ I can make contact with in the
short time I expect will be allotted to me," he writes in a letter to his
editor at Random House, speaking of the literary agent whom he has just,
in any case, dismissed. "I am probably worse than you think, as a person,
but what the hell?" he wrote to Meredith. "When I get hungry for personal
judgment on myself, I'll call for a priest."
Mr. Thompson is not always making symbolic threats. This volume shows
him as a loyal and clever
(An undated self-portrait of Hunter S. Thompson in his youth.)
friend devoted to sporting, high-spirited repartee. It shows him also as
a stingingly good stylist as well as a hard-drinking, gun-toting
adventurer who never loses his sense of humor even when he is being
bitten by South American beetles or stomped on by members of an American
motorcycle gang. The letters and other fragments in this collection are
invested with the same rugged, outspoken individualism as his more public
writings, which make them just as difficult to put down.
What makes them ever more irresistible is that they lend substance to
the legend of his life as an ultimate countercultural romance. If books
like "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" conveyed the image of a handsome
young man riding his motorcycle at 100 miles an hour on the defiant
highway of the untrammeled life, this collection of his private
statements will show that the image was true. "The most important thing a
writer can have," he wrote to a friend when he was 21, is "the ability to
live with constant loneliness and a strong sense of revulsion for the
banalities of everyday socializing." Evidently, he meant what he said.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:52:13 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Hunter S. Thompson/NY Times (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970726000701.8789A-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In Jul 1997, The New York Times printed:
> Mr. Thompson, by dint of hard work and enormous talent, has gotten his
> wish. Edited by Douglas Brinkley and adorned with a sparkling essay by
> the novelist William J. Kennedy, "The Proud Highway" takes Mr. Thompson's
> caustic, furious, funny, look-at-me correspondence through 1967, when the
> author, having arrived on the scene with his book "Hell's Angels," was
> 30.
Wow, was he already a whole 30 years old when _Hell's Angels_ came out? I
was under some kind of impression all these years that his first book came
out at 25, and he'd completed some sort of book-length manuscript and had
gotten some kind of major break at 23. This means my understanding of HST is
going to need some revision; as I understand it his life as a magazine
writer was fairly obscure and somewhat destitute even, until he'd gotten that
Hell's Angel assignment -- originally just an article -- and turned it into
the worthy tome it is. So he spent his 20s without a book, eh? _None_ of
these guys got a break. Arthur, I'm sure at least you'll have something to
say on this matter (and with your usual manner of erudite completeness,
too). Oh and got your message, looking forward to it. Seeya.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:28:30 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Ram Dass Info. Source (fwd)
Comments: cc: bohemian list <bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
ya'll
saw this on rec.music.gdead and i thought it might interest some here.
yrs
derek
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:11:10 -0600
From: bobshome@pacbell.net
Subject: Ram Dass Info. Source
Hi Everyone & Namaste'
I'd like to THANK EVERYONE who has been passing along the ongoing
"health updates" and other topics concerning Ram Dass. He appears to be
recovering at his own pace. Overcoming a massive stroke can be slow at
times... Last Sunday (July 20th), I went to the Bay Area Bandhara (Marin
County, CA.) celebrating Guru Purnima (the actual day itself, according
to the Hindu calendar). This is a celebration of ones' Guru or Teacher.
In this case, Neem Karoli Baba (Maharaj-ji). Jai Uttal lead the kirtan
and the sanga was very uplifting; the food was Excellent!!! Marlene had
told me that they (including Ram Dass), might come. It was when I got
there that I realized that this would've been 'cumbersome' for Ram Dass.
It was at a cabin in the woods on a slight hill...not very easy for a
wheelchair... I found later that the same weekend that some friends from
India visited Ram Dass, which I'm sure lifted his spirits! At my site, I
do my best to get out as much information as I can get my hands on. I
also have an e-mail list which I send out the most recent "health
updates". If you'd like to be on this list, please e-mail me and let me
know "why" you're e-mailing because I receive much e-mail. The e-mail
list is Bcc (Blind carbon copy). No one's address is displayed to
others. A request from some when the list got pretty large. IT HAS BEEN
VERY SWEET OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO I'VE SEEN POSTINGS FROM, REGARDING HEALTH
UPDATES ON NEWSGROUPS!!! It has been my sole intention to pass
information to all that wish it and am VERY HAPPY that others' are doing
the same.
The URL for my site, which includes the current update (at this time,
approx. once a month), past health updates, a bulletin board (for Ram
Dass to come to later and read all of the posts~~his vision in his right
eye HAS been affected~~but the Teacher who wrote, "How Can I Help?" now
has plenty of assistance....a karmic thing :^) Also, a Satsang Page that
has peoples' boigraphies and the option of e-mailing them if you feel you
have something in common with them; Information on the band, Jai Uttal
and the Pagan Love Orchestra and many other related topics. Jai Uttal
spent time in India with Maharaji and was given the name of "Jai Gopal",
which means, "Baby Krishna". Jai's band is jazz fussion with a strong
emphasis on Kirtan. A Must Hear! You wouldn't be disappointed!!!
AGAIN, thanking all of you for spreading the information of Ram Dass'
ongoing recovery and for those who have participated in the
Healing/Prayer Circles, spending a few minutes (globally) in sending
healing energy to Ram Dass. The least we can give back to him after
these many years of Giving of Himself.
URL including addresses and phone numbers And All Of The Above:
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/1143/ramindex.html
Peace and Much Love to You All!!!! Jai Hanuman!
Namaste', Bob Watson
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:43:39 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Joy and Despair
In a message dated 97-07-26 05:46:29 EDT, you write:
<< > And the experience of emotions is a little different than the existence
of time and >matter. >>
Damn. I had them all packed up in the same box ready to send with a ribbon of
Hawkins singualrity tied around them
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:19:30 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Dharma Bum, not quite
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I just read a fawning letter about that fraud
Hunter Thompson. He is mostly a showboat running
around posing as a celebrity writer. Hells Angels
is a nice little book. The Fear and Loathing and
that gonzo shit is just posing. Its by a man who
recognized there was more to be gotten out of advertising
and public relations than can be had by mere writing.
I read the first Fear and Loathing, then looked at
the second one and couldn't finish it. That, the
rolling stone work, the run for sheriff in some
Colorado outback, are just the author seeking a
reputation for outrageousness. He has never since
produced a book as good as Hells Angels.
Mostly, its been advertisements for himself on his
way up. This latest mish-mash is the ultimate product
of a man who has been navel-gazing since he was a
teenager.
I saw one of the least minds of his generation ground
under the wheel of his own angry fixation.
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:13:13 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dharma Bum, not quite
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mike Rice wrote:
>
> I just read a fawning letter about that fraud
> Hunter Thompson. He is mostly a showboat running
> around posing as a celebrity writer. Hells Angels
> is a nice little book. The Fear and Loathing and
> that gonzo shit is just posing. Its by a man who
> recognized there was more to be gotten out of advertising
> and public relations than can be had by mere writing.
>
> I read the first Fear and Loathing, then looked at
> the second one and couldn't finish it. That, the
> rolling stone work, the run for sheriff in some
> Colorado outback, are just the author seeking a
> reputation for outrageousness. He has never since
> produced a book as good as Hells Angels.
>
> Mostly, its been advertisements for himself on his
> way up. This latest mish-mash is the ultimate product
> of a man who has been navel-gazing since he was a
> teenager.
>
> I saw one of the least minds of his generation ground
> under the wheel of his own angry fixation.
>
> Mike Rice
> mrice@centuryinter.net
guess you don't care for hunter too much.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:52:02 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Gregorio Nunzio Corso.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear beat-Ls,
the book "Selected Poems 1947-1995" by Allen Ginsberg has been dedicated
by ALLEN GINSBERG to GREGORIO NUNZIO CORSO.
-----
btw: some days ago somebody wrote:
<<But Thursday he was much weaker, he [Allen Ginsberg] could hobble from
bed to chair only with difficulty. There was a phonecall from Italy, in the
middle of it Allen begins to vomit, throws up right there on the phone!
"Funny," he says, "never done that before.">>
i must thank the writer of a similar anecdote and notice his chord in the
comparisons of the dying poet...
---
yrs Rinaldo.
*
Luciano Pavarotti defendant of don't know the musical notes he
told that ENRICO CARUSO told that for be a good opera singer
you need a good memory.
*
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:37:39 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD)Another Short Interview with William S. Burroughs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Return-Path: <bofus@fcom.com>
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:18:29 -0800
>From: bofus? <bofus@fcom.com>
>To: bofus@fcom.com
>Subject: Another Short Interview with William S. Burroughs
>
>rwhitebone@juno.com (Ron P Whitehead) wrote:
>>
>>
>> WILL OUR MAYOR GIVE BACK WILLIAM BURROUGHS'
>> CAR?
>>
>> Interview with William S. Burroughs (one of
>> many interviews, articles, letters, poems,
>> photographs, & audio to be included in
>> WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS: Calling The Toads, a
>> Published in Heaven Book to be released
>> late summer early fall by the literary
>> renaissance & Ring Tarigh)
>>
>> by Ron Whitehead and Peter Orr
>>
>> New Orleans Mayor Marc Morial, whose police
>> department has included convicted murderers
>> Antoinette Frank and Len Davis, has been
>> invited to dedicate a plaque this summer
>> ('96) to mark 509 Wagner Street in Algiers
>> as the onetime home of William S. Burroughs.
>>
>> In the late 1940s, years before his
>> literary success, Burroughs moved here with
>> his wife after selling his farm in Texas. A
>> vague sentence in Barry Miles' rather
>> informal biography, EL HOMBRE INVISIBLE,
>> might lead some readers to believe that the
>> financial loss on Burroughs' first crop of
>> pot inspired him to move. "That's
>> inaccurate," Burroughs says. "I was moving
>> anyway." Though he recalls doing "quite a
>> bit" of writing during his brief stint
>> here, he would not embark on his first
>> novel, JUNKY, until a year after he left.
>>
>> Knowing Burroughs through his later work,
>> one would expect him to hang out in or near
>> the French Quarter, rather than rustic
>> Algiers. Instead his choice of neighborhood
>> reflected his lifestyle during that era: He
>> had a wife and newborn son.
>>
>> "It was a hell of a lot cheaper. The real
>> estate there was cheap at that time.
>> Probably still is," he says. "I got that
>> house for seven thousand-something." As for
>> the rest of the city, he has few memories to
>> share. "I didn't get around too much."
>>
>> Yet he got around enough to get busted.
>> Only the NOPD's failure to obey legal
>> procedure in searching Burroughs' house
>> kept him out of Angola. (Picture him
>> writing NAKED LUNCH in Dickens-style
>> installments for Wilbert Rideau's THE
>> ANGOLITE. While you're at it, picture the
>> warden rescinding Rideau's permission to
>> print anything, ever.) A second drug
>> offense in Louisiana would have sent him
>> away, so he packed up his family and left.
>> That was nearly 50 years ago.
>>
>> The author, who spoke to TRIBE after
>> recording JUNKY for audio release, did not
>> plan to attend the plaque ceremony, though
>> event organizers have discussed his
>> participating from Lawrence, Kansas, via
>> video linkup.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is this the first time that a place where
>> you lived or worked has been declared a
>> landmark?
>>
>> WSB: As far as I know, yes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Was any of the writing you produced there
>> ever published?
>>
>> WSB: I don't know about that. I'm not sure
>> to say where I wrote this or that, but I
>> certainly did some writing there. As far as
>> how much of it was subsequently published, I
>> have no idea which specific works were
>> written there, or partly written there.
>>
>>
>>
>> Traditionally, people across the South and
>> the Midwest see this city as either
>> romantic or depraved. What impression did
>> you have of New Orleans while you grew up
>> in St. Louis?
>>
>> WSB: No impression of it at all. Not that I
>> know of. No, I... [Thinks] No, I don't
>> recall any ideas about New Orleans at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> The New Orleans police arrested you for
>> having someone with pot in your car, but
>> they charged you with heroin possession.
>>
>> WSB: That's right. They found stuff in my
>> house. They never laid a finger on me, that
>> I recall. They did lead me to believe that
>> someone was a federal agent and he wasn't.
>> He was a city cop. And so there was an
>> illegal search. I didn't know it at the
>> time.
>>
>> When I was arrested, there was somebody
>> with me that I hardly knew. He was just
>> introduced to me. And he had one joint on
>> him. He'd thrown out some larger amount, I
>> think, but the little guy had another joint
>> and they caught it right away. Then the next
>> day they went and they took my car. I never
>> got it back, although I wasn't convicted.
>> See, they can confiscate your property even
>> though you're not convicted of anything.
>> That's really very sinister.
>>
>> There were three people [aside from
>> Burroughs, who was driving] in the car. Two
>> of them were well-known to the police - Joe
>> Ricks and somebody else. So they saw him in
>> the car, and he had another guy with him
>> that I didn't know, who had a joint with
>> him. So they stopped the car on the stength
>> of knowing the other people that were with
>> me. Then they found a joint on this guy.
>> And they gave us all hell.
>>
>>
>>
>> Where did the police arrest you?
>>
>> WSB: It was near Lee Circle. That's all I
>> know. They wouldn't have stopped us except
>> that they recognized these two people, who
>> had long records, long drug records. Not
>> the guy who had a joint on him - he was a
>> seaman, an acquaintance of these people.
>>
>> They confiscated my car on the strength of
>> someone I didn't know having something I
>> didn't know he had. They're getting much,
>> much, much worse in that respect:
>> confiscation with no conviction.
>>
>>
>>
>> To give you an idea of how much progress
>> this city has made, our district attorney
>> wants to start mandatory urine tests for
>> all students in New Orleans public high
>> schools.
>>
>> WSB: It's ridiculous, for God's sakes. I
>> think it's terrible. The whole thing, the
>> whole War On Drugs, seems to me to be a
>> shallow pretense to increase police power
>> and personnel, and confiscation.
>>
>>
>>
>> It also limits black political power. More
>> than half of inner-city black men come of
>> age with felony convictions now, due to
>> cocaine or weapons arrests. Felons can't
>> vot.
>>
>> WSB: Exactly. I hadn't thought of that, but
>> it's very true. I don't see the difference
>> between crack and cocaine, myself. They
>> talk about cocaine addicts, and I never
>> encountered such a thing. Heroin addicts
>> and morphine addicts, to be sure, but never
>> a cocaine addict.
>>
>>
>>
>> By strict definition, cocaine isn't
>> addictive.
>>
>> WSB: No, it isn't, as I can see. I used to
>> shoot, forty or fifty years ago, [pauses to
>> recall the name] speedballs, which were a
>> mixture of cocaine and morphine or heroin.
>> Cocaine alone, I don't like; it makes me
>> edgy. I don't like anything that makes my
>> hand shake, or cuts my appetite.
>>
>>
>>
>> There's a lot of cocaine down here.
>>
>> WSB: Lot of it everywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>> In recent years you've spoken openly about
>> your interest in magic. Is writing a form
>> of magic?
>>
>> WSB: Well, it has a certain relationship,
>> yes. It's evocative magic. It attempts to
>> evoke certain feelings in the reader. In
>> that sense, it's evocative magic. Thing is,
>> some writing has magic in it and some don't
>> [laughs]. Like, Fitzgerald has magic, and
>> Somerset Maugham just doesn't. I'm using
>> the term rather loosely.
>>
>>
>>
>> But isn't any technology magical, at least
>> at first? The advent of writing changed the
>> world more than anything else has since.
>>
>> WSB: Well...in the sense that it makes
>> something happen, yes, it's magic. But it's
>> still a loose use of the term. Because,
>> uh...well, for example, Alesiter Crowley
>> may have been a good black magician, but he
>> wasn't a very good writer. I can't read it
>> straight through, anything by Aleister
>> Crowley.
>>
>> Here's an interesting thing about Crowley:
>> Someone wrote a book called THEY WENT
>> THATAWAY, about the way different people
>> had died. An interesting idea, because they
>> had just a short biography and then how a
>> person died. Poor Cole Porter had a
>> terrible time - he had his legs amputated
>> at the hip, and then he set his bed on fire
>> with a cigarette and died in the hospital.
>>
>> Now, this story got put out by the
>> Crowleyites that his doctor had refused to
>> renew his heroin prescription, and that
>> Crowley put a curse on him; the doctor died
>> the next day, and Crowley died the day
>> after. Now, that's the story. That story
>> was repeated in an edition of this book,
>> and when I tried to get the book again,
>> that story had been deleted. In fact, the
>> whole book had been somehow cashiered, and
>> there's another one, HOW'D THEY DIE?
>>
>>
>>
>> The first book disappeared?
>>
>> WSB: Yes, and then another one came out.
>> The first one was called THEY WENT
>> THATAWAY. It seems to have disappeared from
>> my own bookshelves, as well. Can't put my
>> hand on it.
>>
>>
>>
>> If I come across it, I'll forward it to you.
>>
>> WSB: By all means! This [newer] one has no
>> Aleister Crowley in it, so I don't know if
>> there's any truth to that story at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rock music doesn't interest you much.
>>
>> WSB: Not terribly, no. I listen to some of
>> it.
>>
>>
>>
>> And yet, starting with the Soft Machine in
>> 1967, a long list of rock musicians has
>> borrowed from your work.
>>
>> WSB: Oh, well, titles, yeah: Steely Dan,
>> the Soft Machine, the Insect Trust.
>>
>> I went to a performance by the Led Zeppelin
>> and wrote an article about it. That's quite
>> a while ago. Twenty years ago. I forget
>> where it was published; one of the
>> magazines. CRAWDADDY, that's it.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hear you've finally recorded JUNKY for
>> audiotape release.
>>
>> WSB: I finished recording it, yes. Well,
>> you know, we've got little follow-up places
>> to go, but it's basically finished. I'm not
>> sure when [it comes out]. It'll be on
>> Penguin Audio Books.
>>
>>
>>
>> Have you been back to New Orleans since you
>> left?
>>
>> WSB: Yes, I did a reading down there, but
>> that was quite a few years ago. At Loyola
>> University. It was quite a while ago, a
>> good ten years ago.
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems ironic that this should be the
>> first city to commemorate your former home.
>>
>> WSB: Yes, it does, really. I spent about a
>> year there - less than a year, actually.
>>
>>
>>
>> In 1947.
>>
>> WSB: About then, yeah.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:34:52 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Post from the Hendrix, Hey-Joe Mail List
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This post was found on the Hey-Joe Mail list. The writer is commenting
on the Experience Hendrix organization and their commercialization of
Hendrix (selling coffee tables) and I thought some on this list might
find it interesting:
BEGIN CROSS-POST
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 16:12:15 EST
From: "Rich Rojas" <rrojas@accessbeyond.com>
Message-Id: <9706258698.AA869872323@smtplink.abeyond.com>
Subject: Literay Parallels to The Family
Hey Joe,
I've recently run across news items concerning the actions of the heirs
of
the legacies of some well known authors that bear more than a casual
similarity to a certain family that has been mentioned here on a few
occasions. The first is the estate of Ernest Hemingway. It seems that
they
are vigorously cracking down on any unauthorized use of Hemingway's
name.
They are attempting to shut down the annual Ernest Hemingway look alike
contest sponsored by a bar in Key West. It has become such a popular
event
that more than 100 entrants participated in the last contest, but the
Hemingway family has said no more. The family has also launched a series
of
Hemingway inspired products. The most prominent one being an Ernest
Hemingway shotgun. Yes, the same model used by Ernie to blow his brains
out! This apparently is so tasteless that one of Hemingway's
granddaughters
has publicly expressed her outrage at her family's antics. Please note
that
I'm not making this up. This was covered in an article in the Washington
Post about 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately, I lost the article. Otherwise, I
would quote from it directly.
The other case involves Lawrence Durrell. A review of a new biography on
Durrell mentioned that the author was not permitted by Durrell's heirs
to
quote directly from any of his works or letters. Talk about having your
hands tied! The review goes on to cite other examples of heirs behaving
badly:
"As a result, Bowker has to resort to sometimes wooden paraphase, a
shame
in the case of a glittering stylist like Durrell. This is one more
example
of a growing problem in literay scholarship: the stranglehold some
estates
keep on their inherited authors, allegedly "protecting" their interests
but
in thruth hobbling scholarship for what appears to be private gain (as
in
the case of Joyce's estate) or from simple obtuseness (as in Kerouac's,
until recently). Apparently the Durrell estate is sponsoring the
"official"
biography, and it had better be good."
- -Steven Moore, Washington Post Book World, July 20, 1997
All in All, "a frustratin' mess".
Rich
END CROSS-POST
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 17:06:53 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: What next?
David, Patricia, et.al.:
The momentum seems to be building for THE WESTERN LANDS as the next book to
be tossed into the cauldron. It's especially not easy to choose one work out
of the many installments of the "one long work" by WSB or JK. If it were up
to me I'd certainly choose something by WSB, but probably an early work, and
continue discussing further books chronologically until we arrive at TWL. As
far as JK, I happen to still be in the midst of reading the SELECTED LETTERS
VOL.1-1940-1956, I've been slowly getting to it with very lengthy
interruptions for over a year now, since it came out. So for my purposes it
would be convenient to discuss it while I'm reading it anyway, and that would
motivate me to stop interrupting it and finish already.
If it is to be TWL, there is a certain appropriateness- later this year, it
will be the 10th anniversary of its first publication in December 1987, which
is when I acquired and read it. It's been long enough that I'm ripe for
another reading. I do recall that at the time, I considered it my second
favorite of the late period that I believe distinctly began in 1981 with the
release of CITIES OF THE RED NIGHT, which is my #1 favorite from this phase.
TWL is very, very good WSB, not the very best although I'm uncomfortable
judging works of art like this, it's a subjective business and the prophetic
unfolding of history may very well mock determinations that were rushed to
this early in the game. Anyway, there's one thing I would urge anyone who
participates in a TWL discussion to do if that is what ends up being
discussed after VOC: Obtain the CD SEVEN SOULS by the group Material. This
has just been re-released, it originally came out in 1989 and went out of
print. The new edition has some new mixes, but then the original 7 songs.
WSB himself is the narrator in place of a singer for most of them, and all
of the text he reads is from TWL. Not only are the particular passages he
chooses among the most memorable in the book, in my opinion, but the music is
great- Arabic-influenced avant-garde rock music that serves as a perfect
backdrop for the haunting & humorous readings. Listening to this item would
be a perfect warm-up and stimulate a desire to read the whole work. Trust
me, you can't go wrong with this approach.
Speaking of earlier works, I suggest that if we go forward with TWL, a good
work to read concurrently would be THE YAGE LETTERS, with Allen Ginsberg.
This is an often overlooked gem, and is very, very short, it would not be
burdensome to read along with TWL. Some of the passages in the letters
written by WSB to AG during his 1953 adventures in search of Yage are I think
among the greatest in his whole ouvre, absolutely quintessential WSB.
I await the decision of the "committee" and look forward to what this group
will make of whatever we read next.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:48:12 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Joy and Despair
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-07-26 05:46:29 EDT, you write:
>
> << > And the experience of emotions is a little different than the
> existence
> of time and >matter. >>
>
> Damn. I had them all packed up in the same box ready to send with a
> ribbon of
> Hawkins singualrity tied around them
> C Plymell
But, the question is, since time and matter do not exist, does that make
the experience of emotions actually a more valid experience. Light is a
wave that acts like a particle or a particle that acts like a wave or
both. Time can be affected and appears to be, to some extent, exist
because we all agree it does and to keep everything from happening at
once. But, can the collective unconscious alter time. Matter does not
exist as we perceive it does. Solid is not really solid. It is dense,
yes but solid. But, we perceive these things and agree on some level so
that we have a shared experience. But, are emotions of the same class.
Or, maybe they are truly individual and something that we get to choose.
So, maybe we can't choose to have time go fast when we are in the dental
chair and to go slow while we are making love, but we can choose how we
feel? If so, maybe the experience of emotions is a more valid
experience than that of time and matter. I am not sure that time and
matter exist, really.
Anyway, they certainly are not linear as we are taught to imagine time.
So, maybe time and matter are the same as emotions. Maybe a thought
creates a molecule of matter that is colored, or characterized by an
emotion, and then it becomes matter.
For instance, the day that the OJ Simpson criminal trial verdict was
announced, there was a hurricane dying in the Gulf. Immediately, the
hate mongers on talk radio started in and righteous indignation and
anger erupted en mass. Then the hurricane suddenly gathered strength
and smashed into the Gulf course. There was a very short time lag. The
other day, the hurricane limped on shore, and suddenly took off across
the South spreading death and destruction. It came on the heels of [you
feel in anything you want here]???? My point is that maybe we create
molecules with our thoughts and emotions that are then discharged in the
world of matter and time. So, maybe the experience of them is the
same. Then again, maybe not.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:46:54 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Dharma Bum, not quite
Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970726131724.28477fc2@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
mike
i guess yr not up to a debate considering thompson in a direct link to
beat authors, or a discussing considering thompson as a modern twain?
whats wrong with a little shameless self-promotion, when combined with
great writing?
yrs
derek
ps. buy the new "derek" brand breakfast cereal!!! - more sugar than you
could possibly imagine and twice the spaghettiflavour than the leading
brand!!!(there - see THAT'S shameless self-promotion combined with some lousy
writing. haha ;^))
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:46:50 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Joy and Despair
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 97-07-26 05:46:29 EDT, you write:
> >
> > << > And the experience of emotions is a little different than the
> > existence
> > of time and >matter. >>
> >
> > Damn. I had them all packed up in the same box ready to send with a
> > ribbon of
> > Hawkins singualrity tied around them
> > C Plymell
>
> But, the question is, since time and matter do not exist, does that make
> the experience of emotions actually a more valid experience. Light is a
> wave that acts like a particle or a particle that acts like a wave or
> both. Time can be affected and appears to be, to some extent, exist
> because we all agree it does and to keep everything from happening at
> once. But, can the collective unconscious alter time. Matter does not
> exist as we perceive it does. Solid is not really solid. It is dense,
> yes but solid. But, we perceive these things and agree on some level so
> that we have a shared experience. But, are emotions of the same class.
> Or, maybe they are truly individual and something that we get to choose.
> So, maybe we can't choose to have time go fast when we are in the dental
> chair and to go slow while we are making love, but we can choose how we
> feel? If so, maybe the experience of emotions is a more valid
> experience than that of time and matter. I am not sure that time and
> matter exist, really.
>
> Anyway, they certainly are not linear as we are taught to imagine time.
> So, maybe time and matter are the same as emotions. Maybe a thought
> creates a molecule of matter that is colored, or characterized by an
> emotion, and then it becomes matter.
>
> For instance, the day that the OJ Simpson criminal trial verdict was
> announced, there was a hurricane dying in the Gulf. Immediately, the
> hate mongers on talk radio started in and righteous indignation and
> anger erupted en mass. Then the hurricane suddenly gathered strength
> and smashed into the Gulf course. There was a very short time lag. The
> other day, the hurricane limped on shore, and suddenly took off across
> the South spreading death and destruction. It came on the heels of [you
> feel in anything you want here]???? My point is that maybe we create
> molecules with our thoughts and emotions that are then discharged in the
> world of matter and time. So, maybe the experience of them is the
> same. Then again, maybe not.
>
> Peace,
> --
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
>
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
or vice versa
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 22:10:17 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Post from the Hendrix, Hey-Joe Mail List
In a message dated 97-07-26 21:38:36 EDT, you write:
<< I'm not making this up. This was covered in an article in the Washington
Post about 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately, I lost the article. Otherwise, I
would quote from it directly.
>>
Devil's Advocate position here:
Anyone can post anything to anywhere without being factual. I say, "Cite your
source."
ddr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:11:20 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Joy and Despair-Slight Return
MIME-Version: 1.0
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As to who drives the storms ...
hmmmmmm.m.m.mm
that would take some time perhaps it is a thread.
it begins with a vortex
in the beginning was a vortex
and the vortex was good.
the vortex sends out storms
and the storms are good.
and some say that the storms do damage
and i say that storms are supposed to damage and
storms from the vortex are very good and doing what they're supposed to
do which is doing damage ...
so it begins with a vortex
i was wrong
there
is
definitely
NO
THREAD
that
will
INVOLVE
any
Thinking
Thoughts
along this stream
of typing
Committee Recommends Deletion!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:28:12 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Joy and Despair-Slight Return]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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techno-moron proves himself once again!!!!
dbr
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Message-ID: <33DADBC4.577A@midusa.net>
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:25:24 -0500
From: RACE --- <race@midusa.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
Subject: Re: Joy and Despair-Slight Return
References: <970726154338_526737346@emout01.mail.aol.com>
<33DAA8DC.8FF5435E@scsn.net> <33DAA88A.5267@midusa.net>
<33DAD6E6.32BB1774@scsn.net>
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in the beginning was the vortex . . .
and then
Charley's box
and Charley didn't know better and put things in this box that weren't
supposed to be put together like gravity and anti-gravity along with
matter and anti-matter
and Charley mailed his box to
Sicily
and it killed Vito Corleone's father
and anger was born. . . .
or maybe that was in a movie
i sometimes get movies and reality mixed up. . .
later charley realized that he'd put one of his shoes in the box and so
with only one shoe he stared at the shoe until a book popped out of his
head.
it popped out of his head through the vortex onto paper and into a book
that is into bookstores and the answer
i'm certain
to the
question
whatever the question was
(i've forgotten)
can be found
in the book about the shoe
that
was
left
out
of
the box
that
left
Charley's head
not to Sicily
but
to the vortex
which was there in the beginning
so. . .
in the begining was Charley's shoe....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
--------------2C6B53DB7B7A--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:40:58 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: on not writing
In-Reply-To: <970726170652_342132150@emout07.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
thought i'd just drop in from my bizarro parallel universe and say hello.
i have not been writing
i have been painting
i have not thought of words,
but rather of
colors, shapes, blending, edging,
worlds building on the page
is it sleep
is it dreaming
who is doing the painting?
landscapes of the mind
appear regularly as if
plucked out of thin air.
no memory
beyond the intent to paint
dreams of eternal landscape
of my mind
building word less poems
not asleep
nor waking.
mc
ps: i found out that alizaream (sp?) crimson actually exists in water
colors, now i've got that damned donovan tune in my head and it won't
leave! (wear yr love like heaven....)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:34:28 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: on not writing
Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> thought i'd just drop in from my bizarro parallel universe and say
> hello.
>
> i have not been writing
> i have been painting
> i have not thought of words,
> but rather of
> colors, shapes, blending, edging,
> worlds building on the page
> is it sleep
> is it dreaming
> who is doing the painting?
> landscapes of the mind
> appear regularly as if
> plucked out of thin air.
> no memory
> beyond the intent to paint
> dreams of eternal landscape
> of my mind
> building word less poems
> not asleep
> nor waking.
> mc
>
> ps: i found out that alizaream (sp?) crimson actually exists in water
> colors, now i've got that damned donovan tune in my head and it won't
> leave! (wear yr love like heaven....)
But MC, at least you have the song playing, and not the COMMERCIAL for
perfume. I mean I would not want to PLANT that idea in your HEAD, but
be thankful for small things.
Wear your love like heaven, Wear your love like heaven,
Was that Heaven Scents? Or another cologne?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 13:53:49 -0400
Reply-To: Chimera@WEBTV.NET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Poem/Thrall
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Dionysus rising
You'd be proud
The first step towards innocence
Is to earn your original sin
Understanding violation
Naive and mild
The child endured its rape
Like drowning with your eyes open
You don't see things quite the same
The child began to draw odd pictures
Of a truth no one believed
And a door was shut against
Anyone it would ever know
Rebellion took root
And its attitude grew
Forced to write down its fantasies
Because there was no more room
In its head
It got lost in black and white lies
Worshiped the songs of painted heroes
Lost in verse and books
And a personality like a fractured mirror
Its latest photo is best
A shadow stretching towards...?
In the company of friends
Chimera '91
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:13:28 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Joy & despair dualities
Diane:
Your post of 97-07-24 00:58:41 beginning "I am still pondering this
all-emcompassing darkness and despair", set off a thought process that has
dug deeper into and expanded on my original point. There is a line of
Talmudic commentary which basically states that everything is defined by its
opposite & contrast is therefore essential, or everything "would be
meaningless", as you stated. This is indeed a fact "of general validity" as
WSB would say, a truth that operates in all our lives all the time. The
heart of your post, which generated a lot of discussion on the List, is what
I want to address:
"I want to understand why Kerouac could not ever find what he was looking
for, at least to the point of seeing joy and despair as dualities that both
exist in the moment, and really, the meaning of human life is in the moments.
How could anyone who at times writes with such gushyness about the joys of
being alive, be stuck so on finality and loss and death?"
There has been some debate here about whether joy & despair can be
simultaneous or only follow/precede each other. As I see it, they can exist
concurrently in that the one contains the seeds or backdrop of the other, and
is stronger because of the realization of the other, as in the Talmudic
approach as I understand it (I've only dabbled at the tip of a very big
iceberg that people have devoted their entire lives to). An example would be
the astronauts' observations of Earth from the distance of space, leading to
published ponderings on the relative sub-microscopicness of what seems like
all their is when you're on its surface, the ultimate forest-for-the-trees
experience so far in human history. The site of our planet in its context
can lead either to a despairing revelation of our ultimate insignificance, or
a deeper respect for the preciousness of it and its inhabitants as being so
rare, if not unique altogether, in the vast cosmos. The belief that "the
meaning of human life is in the moments", with which my experience agrees,
can among other things come from the realization that those moments are
finite, within lives that are brief tiny sparkles in the infinite darkness.
What am I getting at here? Why can't an appreciation of the joy of the
moment, or at least an acceptance of duality, win out with JK in his life and
work? I would venture to say that although there is joy around the corner
from despair & vice versa, ultimately and literally as far as we can
empirically determine, "finality and loss and death" always get the last
word. The bouncing back and forth stops sooner or later, there's dark at the
end of all our tunnels and for JK this overwhelmed the comfort and peace we
perceive him seeking in the back-and-forth process he chronicles. Just as he
comes to the dead end that upset you at the end of VOC, it is an evocation of
the darkness at the end of every road. Also in his particular case, as James
Stauffer pointed out, his religious and sexual conflicts exacerbated the
already nearly unbearable burden (& joy) of his acute sensitivity to everyone
and everything which writing, no matter how prolific and brilliant, could not
be an ultimate answer to or relief from. To go any further from here, we
must get into the religious/philosophical cosmic dept. Is there a life
force that is eternal, which goes in and out of myriad vessels like our
bodies, all the leaves in their cycles, etc., but ultimately is constant and
eternal? This can only be answered by faith beyond what we know up to the
darkness, within the space/time context that we live & think in.
I'll tell you, I have reached some kind of brick wall here, unlike all the
posts which have flowed so easily since I first came aboard, this one is a
throwback to the uphill efforts of my pre-Beat-L attempts to articulate my
thoughts onto the page/screen. It has been laborious and taken up the time I
would normally have used to dash off half a dozen posts. And, I feel as if I
have little to nothing to show for it, that I haven't begun to do justice to
what I thought had ripened in the mind and was ready for words. There must
be some significance to this, perhaps JK's testament and the commentaries it
has generated have lead me to some variation of the impasse he leaves himself
and the reader at as VOC concludes.
I'll conclude this infuriating failure with a quote from THE WESTERN LANDS,
also to be found on one of the tunes in SEVEN SOULS, where WSB, as usual,
does find just the right words to comment on the dual factors we've been
wrestling with:
"You have to be in Hell to see Heaven. Glimpses from the Land of the Dead,
flashes of serene timeless joy, a Joy as old as suffering and despair"
Frustratedly if not despairingly,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:09:19 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: ATTENTION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Beats and Beat-Lovers,
I have looked around a little on the web and noticed that there's no real
congruity to any of the beat sites. Of course, Levi's site is pretty
thorough, but have you ever wanted a simple way to navigate? I'm willing
to start a Beat WebRing. I know some people think that webrings suck. I
don't know. The poetry one I'm on is pretty decent. Anyway, I find it
next to impossible to keep track of all the beat sites and this would be
a simple and usefull way to do it. Does anyone else think it would be a
good idea?
Chris D-U-M-O-N-D
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124/
PS last name: DUMOND not DRUMMOND or whatever... it gets annoying after
the sixth day of having your name mis-spelled in subjects...
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:24:59 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: webRing
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Chris Dumond wrote:
>
I'm willing to start a Beat WebRing. I know some people think that
webrings suck.
Never heard of a WebRing nor why webrings suck. do have this vision of
a cyber circle jerk - but i imagine it is not anything like that.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:50:01 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Joy & despair dualities
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
>
> I'll tell you, I have reached some kind of brick wall here, unlike all the
posts which have flowed so easily since I first came aboard, this one is a
throwback to the uphill efforts of my pre-Beat-L attempts to articulate my
thoughts onto the page/screen. It has been laborious and taken up the time I
would normally have used to dash off half a dozen posts. And, I feel as if I
have little to nothing to show for it, that I haven't begun to do justice to
what I thought had ripened in the mind and was ready for words. There must be
some significance to this, perhaps JK's testament and the commentaries it has
generated have lead me to some variation of the impasse he leaves himself and
the reader at as VOC concludes.
>
> I'll conclude this infuriating failure with a quote from THE WESTERN LANDS,
> also to be found on one of the tunes in SEVEN SOULS, where WSB, as usual,
> does find just the right words to comment on the dual factors we've been
> wrestling with:
>
> "You have to be in Hell to see Heaven. Glimpses from the Land of the Dead,
> flashes of serene timeless joy, a Joy as old as suffering and despair"
>
> Frustratedly if not despairingly,
>
> Arthur
Arthur,
i thought this gem demonstrated the power with which synapses can fire
at something so hard and still end up rolling the rock up the hill like
sisyphus. i was following your words closely, engaged in your voice,
and hit the paragraph where you confess the difficulty with which the
words were coming and i said to myself: Ah! This paragraph is IT. The
joy and despair are both in it roaming between the letters in the
words.
and then willie the rat provides a magical closure to a magical journey.
one must imagine Kerouac happy.
on another note, i think that the Talmudic notion you suggest (which
i've understood in many different contexts but this one is new to me) is
useful but ironically also a dualistic trap in itself. The emotions are
more than a coin with one side and another. The panaroma of Affections
from Joy to Despair and perhaps beyond each is infinitely sided.
I still believe that the last third of Steppenwolf - if examined with
these questions involved - is perhaps the greatest place to examine
answers. And yet, even after we're aware of the mirrored soul, we are
still here within the containers of space and time in a finite life that
touches the infinite at every turn.
And so even after the epiphany of Burroughs or Hesse or the kicks, joy,
darkness trinity of Kerouac's we each still face the hill -- up or down
-- with our respective stones to push. And the key - to me - in Camus'
conclusion to the retelling of the Myth of Sisyphus is in the word
"Imagination". We must imagine Sisyphus happy. Imagination is the tool
in the human universe that can step beyond the dualities that trap and
enslave most of us, most of the time as we wander through what we call
life.
America - emblem of optimism and depression. Before we move with Jack
to the disappointing view of the emblem we might recall that many of the
kicks and joys are part of America too. The spirit of America seems
hatched in a climate of happiness in the joy/despair dichotomy. I
imagine that just about anywhere in this country one can move within the
same town or village or city or suburb and see portraits of both the
joys and the despairs and in the living through these the characters in
these imaginary scenes in my mind portray an other angle on the myth of
America -- able to laugh at the Horatio myth and yet dream about it at
the same time.
If this did or didn't make sense to anyone, i think that i should once
again remind that i live now in a part of the world in which Eisenhower
is still considered President and the pledge of allegiance is still
thought of as a pretty poem.
grins,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:05:00 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!
Comments: To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
What's a web ring?
At 07:09 PM 7/27/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Beats and Beat-Lovers,
>
>I have looked around a little on the web and noticed that there's no real
>congruity to any of the beat sites. Of course, Levi's site is pretty
>thorough, but have you ever wanted a simple way to navigate? I'm willing
>to start a Beat WebRing. I know some people think that webrings suck. I
>don't know. The poetry one I'm on is pretty decent. Anyway, I find it
>next to impossible to keep track of all the beat sites and this would be
>a simple and usefull way to do it. Does anyone else think it would be a
>good idea?
>
>Chris D-U-M-O-N-D
>http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124/
>
>
>PS last name: DUMOND not DRUMMOND or whatever... it gets annoying after
>the sixth day of having your name mis-spelled in subjects...
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:40:31 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Joy & despair dualities
In a message dated 97-07-27 20:57:21 EDT, you write:
<< i thought this gem demonstrated the power with which synapses can fire >>
More like the re-uptake pump since Burroughs.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 10:45:05 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Joy & despair dualities
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
> What am I getting at here? Why can't an appreciation of the joy of >
> the
> moment, or at least an acceptance of duality, win out with JK in his
> life and
> work? I would venture to say that although there is joy around the
> corner
> from despair & vice versa, ultimately and literally as far as we can
> empirically determine, "finality and loss and death" always get the
> last
> word. The bouncing back and forth stops sooner or later, there's dark
> at the
> end of all our tunnels and for JK this overwhelmed the comfort and
> peace we
> perceive him seeking in the back-and-forth process he chronicles. Just
> as he
> comes to the dead end that upset you at the end of VOC, it is an
> evocation of
> the darkness at the end of every road.
> Also in his particular case, as James
> Stauffer pointed out, his religious and sexual conflicts exacerbated
> the
> already nearly unbearable burden (& joy) of his acute sensitivity to
> everyone
> and everything which writing, no matter how prolific and brilliant,
> could not
> be an ultimate answer to or relief from. To go any further from here,
> we
> must get into the religious/philosophical cosmic dept. Is there a
> life
> force that is eternal, which goes in and out of myriad vessels like our
> bodies, all the leaves in their cycles, etc., but ultimately is
> constant and
> eternal? This can only be answered by faith beyond what we know up to
> the
> darkness, within the space/time context that we live & think in.
>
> I'll tell you, I have reached some kind of brick wall here...
Arthur,
Thanks for the words that, inspite of the frustration, do serve to
further illuminate our discussion. I, too, am more than thoroughly
familiar with this wall. I must read more by Kerouac to understand more
clearly how he bounced back and forth between dualities. I decided to
read The Dharma Bums next, and but am already caught in the beginning by
what he writes, "...but I warned him at once I didn't give a goddamn
about the mythology and all the names and national flavors of Buddhism,
but was just interested in the first of Sakyamuni's four noble truths,
All life is suffering. And to an extent interested in the third, The
suppression of suffering can be achieved, which I didn't quite believe
was possible then."
I am still stopped intellectually by the thought that "finality, loss and
death always get the last word." Obviously all writers that have ever
existed wrote because they had to express something about human life in
the light of their own mortality. What bothers me about the end of VOC
is not that darkness is portrayed so fully or that all heros fail, but
the sense that in his own life Kerouac embraced this sense of dispair
inspite of his knowledge (which I think he shows in his writing) of joy
and the human ability to grasp the infinite in finite moments. He writes
so eloquently of epiphanies, times when he wrote that: yes, that's the
way things are and still all is alright. I cannot buy for even a minute
the idea that "yes, I'm too sensitive, and thus I must drink to cover the
pain, to close the holes of darkness that penetrate my very being," which
is the theory that has often been put forward, even by others on this
list. The factor of human choice is perhaps what confounds me in this
duality discussion. Darkness is at the end of every path, but one cannot
know darkness without knowing light. One cannot know the depth of
despair without knowing the depth of joy. One cannot acknowledge loss
without grasping fullness. Kerouac's words are full of epiphanies, but
in spite of the knowledge he had, he chose despair, and alcohol did not
I think, give him comfort, but an easier way to slip into total despair.
Yet, this same man, in The Scriptures of the Golden Eternity,
writes, "There's the world in the daylight. If it was completely dark
you wouldn't see it but it would still be there. If you close your eyes
you really see what it's like: mysterious particle-swarming emptiness.
On the moon big mosquitos of straw, know this in the kindness of their
hearts. Truly speaking, unrecognizably sweet it all is. Don't worry
about nothing....This world has no marks, signs or evidence of existence,
nor the noises in it, like accident of wind or voices or heehawing
animals, yet listen closely the eternal hush of silence goes on and on
throughout all this, and has been going on, and will go on and on. This
is because the world is nothing but a dream and is just thought of and
the everlasting eternity pays no attention to it. At night under the
moon, or in a quiet room, hush now, the secret music of the Unborn goes
on and on, beyond conception, awake beyond existence. Properly speaking,
awake is not really awake because the golden eternity never went to
sleep: you can tell by the constant sound of Silence which cuts through
the world like a magic diamond through the trick of your not realizing
that your mind caused the world."
Your quote from WSB certainly opens up the strength of the dualities we
have been speaking of. I read the intro to Queer finally and understand
his necessity to write, as it were, his way out of despair. It seems
like his wife's death by his own hand gave impetus to what he saw in the
rest of his life. Darkness and light are hand-in-hand. I'm still not
sure where this duality takes us in terms of Kerouac.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:06:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Dharma Bum, not quite
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Mike,
Glad you said that and I didn't have to. And know he's got a microbrew
out. Hot damn.
James Stauffer
Mike Rice wrote:
>
> I just read a fawning letter about that fraud
> Hunter Thompson. He is mostly a showboat running
> around posing as a celebrity writer. Hells Angels
> is a nice little book. The Fear and Loathing and
> that gonzo shit is just posing. Its by a man who
> recognized there was more to be gotten out of advertising
> and public relations than can be had by mere writing.
>
> I read the first Fear and Loathing, then looked at
> the second one and couldn't finish it. That, the
> rolling stone work, the run for sheriff in some
> Colorado outback, are just the author seeking a
> reputation for outrageousness. He has never since
> produced a book as good as Hells Angels.
>
> Mostly, its been advertisements for himself on his
> way up. This latest mish-mash is the ultimate product
> of a man who has been navel-gazing since he was a
> teenager.
>
> I saw one of the least minds of his generation ground
> under the wheel of his own angry fixation.
>
> Mike Rice
> mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:17:02 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Joy & despair dualities
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> RACE wrote:
> And so even after the epiphany of Burroughs or Hesse or the kicks, joy,
> darkness trinity of Kerouac's we each still face the hill -- up or down
> -- with our respective stones to push. And the key - to me - in Camus'
> conclusion to the retelling of the Myth of Sisyphus is in the word
> "Imagination". We must imagine Sisyphus happy. Imagination is the
> tool
> in the human universe that can step beyond the dualities that trap and
> enslave most of us, most of the time as we wander through what we call
> life.
>
> America - emblem of optimism and depression. Before we move with Jack
> to the disappointing view of the emblem we might recall that many of
> the
> kicks and joys are part of America too. The spirit of America seems
> hatched in a climate of happiness in the joy/despair dichotomy. I
> imagine that just about anywhere in this country one can move within
> the
> same town or village or city or suburb and see portraits of both the
> joys and the despairs and in the living through these the characters in
> these imaginary scenes in my mind portray an other angle on the myth of
> America -- able to laugh at the Horatio myth and yet dream about it at
> the same time.
>
> If this did or didn't make sense to anyone, i think that i should once
> again remind that i live now in a part of the world in which Eisenhower
> is still considered President and the pledge of allegiance is still
> thought of as a pretty poem.
> David,
"One must imagine Kerouac happy."
While I thoroughly understand the context of your thought, I must
question, in the light of IT why Kerouac could not imagine Kerouac happy.
And bringing into this the power of the artist, the power of Imagination,
why write of the power of the infinite, the power of eternity, only in
your own living, to grasp the darkness of the finite, the darkness of the
temporal world. Why not use the imagination to see the flowing of
eternity, or whatever you want to call it, while in the container of
space and time. We are all pushing our respective rocks up the hill, so
why not imagine it otherwise. Your words prompted in my mind an
awakening of the visionary qualities of William Blake, and the thought
that the power to fully live lies within the imagination. And the
connection from there that I make to Ginsberg who saw the work of the
poet as one of easing the pain of living. How did the American dream
fail Cody? How did it fail Kerouac? The Americans he saw as on a
dead-end road to darkness were still grasping for the dream, grasping in
their own way through whatever suffering in their lives, struggling to
survive. Kerouac, at some point in his life, decided to stop
struggling, to stop dreaming. The power of the imagination and the power
"to dream" are linked, and perhaps are key to the great myth of America,
the great myth of life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:19:27 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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a web ring is where at the bottom of the web page there's a linkto a
site with similar subjects. it basically tries to save you time on
searching for other enjoyable sites. some are large; some are not. i
personally think if we had enough members to the "ring" it would be a
very good idea. cya~randy
"...The robots are useless if not versatile."- Alduos Huxley
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:24:05 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Dharma Bum, not quite
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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it's writers like hunter and anne rice that piss me off, their
writing is crap, but they are just so damn prolific! and then they go
around selling themselves out evenmore. makes me wish more would just
shut the hell up like salinger or something
~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:36:14 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: phil ochs?
hey, i have a quick question for you all:
now, i know that bob dylan is definitely considered a beat for obvious
reasons, but does anyone know if phil ochs would also be considered a beat?
please let me know, if you can!
by the way, the mail i was getting when i first joined the list was so
overwhelming that i almost got off the list, but everytime i was about to
make the call, i couldn't tear myself away! you guys are just too damn
interesting! anyway, thanks for enhancing my on-line experience!
curiously and appreciatively yours,
jenn
"free your toes" -Carly
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:47:13 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dharma Bum, not quite
Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33DC0CB9.3BCD@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Glad you said that and I didn't have to. And know he's got a microbrew
> out. Hot damn.
> James Stauffer
Ah, to leap up on the poison and lame horse and prove
oneself a poor reader, thinker, historian, and critic.
Microbrew? Fuck that. Read Dr. Thompson and know one of your betters.
Some of us were in many of the same places (take that as y'all will) that
the Dr. talks about, and he talks about 'em true and well. He is one of the
finest journalists America has had to offer in the last 25 years--and
probably longer, more probably 30. Just hunker down in
them ersatz coffee joints and dribble out of your blank eyes...and try to
hear through them never-never ear and brain plugs.
Reputation? He's earned the best kind. Writer. Period.
Hunter Thompson--
and the bastard can WRITE. And SEE. Look at his Nixon riffs long before
the crippled mainstream press knew shit from shinola.
Reputation? Hoopla? Yes.
Writer? Most of all. Never forget that part.
best,
steve
>
> Mike Rice wrote:
> >
> > I just read a fawning letter about that fraud
> > Hunter Thompson. He is mostly a showboat running
> > around posing as a celebrity writer. Hells Angels
> > is a nice little book. The Fear and Loathing and
> > that gonzo shit is just posing. Its by a man who
> > recognized there was more to be gotten out of advertising
> > and public relations than can be had by mere writing.
> >
> > I read the first Fear and Loathing, then looked at
> > the second one and couldn't finish it. That, the
> > rolling stone work, the run for sheriff in some
> > Colorado outback, are just the author seeking a
> > reputation for outrageousness. He has never since
> > produced a book as good as Hells Angels.
> >
> > Mostly, its been advertisements for himself on his
> > way up. This latest mish-mash is the ultimate product
> > of a man who has been navel-gazing since he was a
> > teenager.
> >
> > I saw one of the least minds of his generation ground
> > under the wheel of his own angry fixation.
> >
> > Mike Rice
> > mrice@centuryinter.net
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 00:58:27 -0700
Reply-To: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner611 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: fishing & Me
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
In-Reply-To: <970725230945_1792064510@emout14.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 8:09 PM -0700 7/25/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Confusious Say:
> They have all answered correctly; that is, each in their own nature.
>
> I say:
> Take up the slack, Jack.
>
> Don't mean to be coy
> C. Plymell
fishin gypsum
yeah that new york grate
that yuh uh we can up
up ya one one time
more time, that's what we want
the air waves
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
step aside, and let the man go thru
----> let the man go thru
super bon-bon (soul coughing)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:12:24 PDT
Reply-To: Gesi Rovario <sammigirl1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gesi Rovario <sammigirl1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: webRing
Content-Type: text/plain
>Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:24:59 -0500
>From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
>Subject: webRing
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Chris Dumond wrote:
>>
> I'm willing to start a Beat WebRing. I know some people think that
>webrings suck.
>
>
>Never heard of a WebRing nor why webrings suck. do have this vision of
>a cyber circle jerk - but i imagine it is not anything like that.
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>
No, no, no. That's another mailing list entirely <G>. A WebRing is a
collection of similar sites that are linked together. So,if you've only
got one URL, you can still get to all of them with a mouse-click.
Gesi
*I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a
necessary ingredient in living, it's a way of looking at life
through the wrong end of the telescope. Which is what I do
and that enables you to laugh at life's realities.*
*Dr. Seuss*
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 08:21:53 -0400
Reply-To: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: Buddha on suffering
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Kerouac was particularly influenced by the Diamond Sutra. I think
you'll find Buddha taught that the physical world does not exist,
period, and that all suffering (the second noble truth) is due to our
attachment to this unreal existence and our ignorance and confusion in
insisting on its reality.
The Diamond Sutra and many other Buddhist texts are also on line at a
number of sites. Jack's book Some of the Dharma should be out any day.
His Scripture of the Golden Eternity was published by City Lights and
is still around.
Mark Hemenway
The First Noble Truth is: <<All life is suffering.>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:05:22 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ATTENTION!
In-Reply-To: <33DBFF4F.3C55@erols.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 27 Jul 1997, Chris Dumond wrote:
> thorough, but have you ever wanted a simple way to navigate? I'm willing
> to start a Beat WebRing. I know some people think that webrings suck. I
Why the hell not?...Count me in.
http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/links/beats
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:21:43 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: HST
In a message dated 97-07-28 01:55:45 EDT, you write:
<< it's writers like hunter and anne rice that piss me off, their
writing is crap, >>
I've never read either. Is HST in new journalism genre? Some friends from our
village went down to the city to see him at a press dinner or someting. I'm
aware of his titles. Can anyone tell me abt. him? I know that he visited
Lawrence Kansas and earlier on the list someone sd he was shooting things on
the Cowan show.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:35:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dharma Bum, not quite
Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net
In a message dated 97-07-28 02:30:17 EDT, you write:
<< . The Fear and Loathing and
> that gonzo shit is just posing. Its by a man who >>
Mike just provided an insight to HST. Thanks. Promotion rarely presents a
good product. "Posing" good word. We have the skateboarders to thank for
that? I used to read articles in Thrasher mag.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 09:09:37 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re[2]: Dharma Bum, not quite
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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it's writers like hunter and anne rice that piss me off, their
writing is crap, but they are just so damn prolific! and then they go
around selling themselves out evenmore. makes me wish more would just
shut the hell up like salinger or something
~randy
***********************
I don't know that I'd clump HST with Rice, but your point is well made. It's
the pop fiction crap of Grisham, Steele, Rice, Higgins Clark (although she has
great premises) that put me in my " I hate big publishing houses/overadvanced
authors" mode.
One of the advances from one of the "typists" (hello Truman C. in Heaven (with
Jack on his back)) above would publish 100 new authors. Support your local
Brautigan library........
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:55:33 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter and Dick
Comments: To: psu06729@odin.cc.pdx.edu
In a message dated 97-07-28 02:53:58 EDT, you write:
<< Nixon riffs long before
the crippled mainstream press knew shit from shinola. >>
If you have any good quotes short enough to posts, I'd appreciated reading.
I'm in a remote village and can't easily browse the bookstore. Not that it wd
help. The local bookstore doesn't even have my own book in it, though it is
in Borders, Barnes & Nobles, Hastings, etc. Ah promotion is the key! Does
that mean I'll have to get out of bed? (Not, rhetorically, a figure of
speech). I did "know" Nixon, though. He and Dan Quayle present the
quintissential American. I see them when I go to the BaHall of Fame in
Cooperstown. Nowdays is not a matter of what the mainstream press knows, it a
matter of how to get it past their bosses. It was so much simpler with the
Politburo.
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:03:00 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: Hunter and Jack
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I read an interesting story in one of the many Hunter S. Thompson
biographies that i own which spoke about Hunter visiting a Kerouac
reading in the 1950s. Apparently Thompson was irritated and started
to roll empty beer bottles down the steps of the little theater
during the poetry reading. According to Hunter, Jack was too trashed
to know that anything was going on. Hey its just a story and personally
Thompson is the reason why i'd give any respect to Rolling Stone
magazine or any journalist in general. To me they are too pretentious
and shallow. (I have this argument with my girlfriend all the time
because she's a journalism major where as i am an english major)
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:04:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: on up/one down
Comments: To: babu@electriciti.com
In a message dated 97-07-28 05:24:43 EDT, you write:
<< yeah that new york grate
that yuh uh we can up
up ya one one time >>
I think that is true of the New York City provincialism
But Upstate, we're in Dork proventialism that is a bit of a mixture of old
Tory, Coloniailism, and Third Reich. The intelleginsia here still take their
culture from the New Yorker, or the NewMoralitySpeak Times. I feel like a
foriegner whever I am.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:09:20 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: webRing
Comments: To: sammigirl1@hotmail.com
In a message dated 97-07-28 06:24:05 EDT, you write:
<< *I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells. Fantasy is a
necessary ingredient in living, it's a way of looking at life
through the wrong end of the telescope. Which is what I do
and that enables you to laugh at life's realities.*
>>
Thank You Dr. Fuess
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:15:57 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter and Jack
In a message dated 97-07-28 12:05:30 EDT, you write:
<< Hey its just a story and personally
Thompson is the reason why i'd give any respect to Rolling Stone
magazine or any journalist in general. >>
Hey here's a novel idea....
Quit respecting sucko journalism entirely.
God, I miss the Sixties.
ddr
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:54:49 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac: the musical.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
since i'm new i don't know if anyone knows about this but a friend
of mine went to an audition for a musical based on Kerouac's life.
All of the major Beats are portrayed in this play and its showing
in NY in small theaters. Do any of the NYC folks on this mailing
list know about this?
jason.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:39:07 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dharma Bum, not quite
Comments: To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970728113321_-724656856@emout02.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 28 Jul 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> Promotion rarely presents a good product.
so visions of cody, dr. sax etc.: rare exception or good beatnik marketing?
> "Posing" good word. We have the skateboarders to thank for that? I used to
> read articles in Thrasher mag.
yeah 80s skatepunks in retalliation to glam rock, new wave pop & every other
hairspray and fashion "look" of 80s "rockers." so it was they were "posers"
(sometime "poseurs") as opposed to hardcore punks, skaters, stoners & others
who were the real thing...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:54:30 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: : and in bodies ((wetware_ by rudy rucker, p83
Comments: cc: Victoria Paul <vpaul@gwdi.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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sequel to _Software_
story of humans and robots
1988 sci-fi, post gibson
pre-burning man elegy
talking about the One
cosmic ray counters
dreck, fuffs, meaties, rats, merge
asimovs, petaflops, pinkboys
and robots that adopt human systems
trains of language like Edgar Allan Poe
and of the Beats <<ahem>>:
==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-pg 83 from Rudy Rucker's _Wetware_
"Not just yet," said Cobb. "I want to mingle a bit. I really just come
here for the business contacts, you know."
He hunkered down by the wall between two petaflops, interrupting their
conversation, not that he could follow what they were saying. They were
like stoned out beatnik buddies, a Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady team,
both of them with thick, partly transparent flickercladdings veined and
patterned in fractal patterns of color. Each of the cladding's
colorspots were made up of an open network of smaller spots, which were
in turn made of yet smaller threads and blotches--all the way down to
the limits of visibility. One of the petaflops patterns and body
outlines were angular and hard-edged. He was colored mostly
red-yellow-blue. The other petaflop was green-brown-black, and his
surface was so fractally bumpty that he looked like an infinitely warty
squid, constantly sprouting tentacles which sprouted tentacles which
sprouted. Each of these fractal boppers had a dreak cylinder plugged
into a valve in the upper part of his body.
"Hi," said Cobb. "How's the dreak?"
**end transmission
----> o{--- [ babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:08:04 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: the musical.
Comments: To: jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970728125243.15756B-100000@turbo.kean.edu> from
"Hipster Beat Poet." at Jul 28, 97 12:54:49 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> since i'm new i don't know if anyone knows about this but a friend
> of mine went to an audition for a musical based on Kerouac's life.
> All of the major Beats are portrayed in this play and its showing
> in NY in small theaters. Do any of the NYC folks on this mailing
> list know about this?
Yeah, I saw it. It wasn't as bad as it could have been,
but it still wasn't good.
I briefly reviewed it here a few months ago.
If Attila Gyenis is still on the list, his review was
slightly nicer than mine, maybe he can defend it.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
| |
| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
| -- Jack Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:15:38 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac: the musical.
yes, thanks, Jason... it's mentioned on a Kerouac website and, i think, one
other, what it was escapes me.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Hipster Beat Poet.
Sent: Monday, July 28, 1997 9:54 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Kerouac: the musical.
since i'm new i don't know if anyone knows about this but a friend
of mine went to an audition for a musical based on Kerouac's life.
All of the major Beats are portrayed in this play and its showing
in NY in small theaters. Do any of the NYC folks on this mailing
list know about this?
jason.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:56:49 -0600
Reply-To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Writes crap? Not quite.
In-Reply-To: <199707280520.BAA07752@mailhub.southeast.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>it's writers like hunter and anne rice that piss me off, their
>writing is crap, but they are just so damn prolific! and then they go
>around selling themselves out evenmore. makes me wish more would just
>shut the hell up like salinger or something
>~randy
Randy,
Everyone to their own opinion, but to say that Thompson writes crap and let
it go at that is a unfair. So what if he demands his Coors and Wild Turkey
as part of his bookings, and so what if he blows his own horn. His Hells
Angels book and the political campaign stuff show a writer
who--regardless of the hype--gets down and digs hard for his stories. If he
was the biggest lightweight asshole in the world I'd be in his corner just
for his stuff about Nixon and that crowd. He's entertaining to read and at
his appearences he can provoke, challenge, and aggressively get-in-the-face
of those wandering the corridors of power and wealth.
Thompson also seems to be fearless. For example, he took an ass kicking to
end ass kickings from members of the Hells Angels and walked/crawled away
uncowed.Rare then and now. As a teen i rode with the likes of that bunch
and saw enough barbaraic behavior to understand fear. I would no more have
put pen to paper around that crowd than I'd walk through South Boston on
St. Patrick's Day cursing the Irish or show up for class at Boston
University in an SS uniform.
Although I haven't the most recent book (his correspondence) the book is
being praised by reviewers who would normally dismiss him. Wish I had
saved some of the reviews so I could be more specific.
j grant
BE ON THE WATCH
for items stolen from the Keroauc Collection
O'Leary Library, U Mass, Lowell
http://www.bookzen.com/kerouac.theft.html
Academic & Small Press Authors & publishers
display books free at
<http://www.bookzen.com>
375,913 visitors from 07-96 to 07-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 03:52:42 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: what it is
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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hi,
As I was sending the post, I had a feeling that I was taking for granted
that people know what web rings are, when actually not too many do.
Basically a web ring is exactly what it says... it is a circuit of
compiled web sites related to a certain topic. The sites are all linked
via a complicated CGI program that I don't even pretend to understand.
It allows me to maintain this ring of sites so that the information is
more easily available. For instance, let's say you went to Joe Smith's
Kerouac page and it wasn't what you were looking for... you could look at
old Joe's links (which 9 out of 10 don't) or you could fire up the old
search engines... both sources are questionable... but Joe is connected
to the Beat Webring! You are now assured that all these sites that you
are about to surf through have real beat generation content!!! To make
it simpler for you, visit my page... I'm part of the poetry webring. The
links are at the VERY bottom of the page and they're simple text... play
with it and see what it's all about.
Chris
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124/index.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:47:43 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Caffettiera Napoletana...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Caffettiera Napoletana A. Passeggio (50 anni di esperienza)
found by Beppe Severgnini 1997 (c)
collected by William Ward
edited by Rinaldo Rasa
INTRUCTIONS FOR THE USE
1) To fill before the inside part of the coffee pot
of coffee-powder
(5 grams each person)
2) To screw in the filter on the inside-part of the
coffee-pot.
3) To fill of water the superior-body till the little hole.
4) Introduce the inside-part of the coffee-pot in the superior-body
(already filled of water before).
5) Put the coffee-pot with the spout on the supeior-body and
put it finally on the fire.
6) As soon as the water goes in ebullition, you will see the
water coming out from coffee-pot, just from the said little
hole. Now, keep out the coffee-pot from the fire, upset it
and remain it for some minutes in rest; in the meantime, the
water will filter and will transform it in a very exquisite
coffee, and you can serve it too.
It is well known all over the world that
NEAPOLITAN ORIGINAL COFFEE-POT "A PASSEGGIO"
is the unique to do a very aromatic coffee.
WOOOO-AHH-OHH!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:06:40 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Hunter Thompson
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Like him or not, the end of the book Fear and Loathing on the Campaign
Trail is some of the best observation of the political process on
America. It is straight ahead writing. There may be a lot of bs out
there too, but to simply dismiss him as writing crap is not on point,
IMHO.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:10:06 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter and Jack
Comments: To: Ddrooy@aol.com
In a message dated 97-07-28 14:33:18 EDT, you write:
<< Hey its just a story and personally
Thompson is the reason why i'd give any respect to Rolling Stone
magazine or any journalist in general. >>
Hey here's a novel idea....
Quit respecting sucko journalism entirely.
God, I miss the Sixties.
ddr
>>
Yeah, That's a good point. Seems I could make it dozens of times a day.
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:42:32 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: worth the trip
Comments: To: Ddrooy@aol.com
Thanks, D. I remember them all those Filmore posters and some of the events.
I haven't heard from Wes Wilson in years. He sent me a special little
drawing-message in the 70's. I wonder if he's still around? I talked to
S.Clay Wilson on the phone today. He just turned 56. Drawing madly. Rent
check due. Mad at the printers for wrecking his Beat-L drawing. (5 min.
diatribe)
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:36:52 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Eric Mottram (1924-1995)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear beat-Ls,
Eric Mottram (1924-1995) is a key figure of post-war literature and
teaching. After the work of Charles Olson and Robert Duncan, Eric Mottram
produced one of the most extensive and coherent bodies of work on late 20th
century poetics. He published over 160 articles and 20 critical works
including a collection of essays on American culture, Blood on the Nash
Ambassador and the first book-length study of William Burroughs' work, The
Algebra of Need. He had two dozen collections of poetry published from the
late 1960s onwards including Elegies, A Book of Herne and Selected Poems.
Mottram was the first to teach Beat writing in Europe in the 1950s.
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:14:11 -0400
Reply-To: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Linda Highland <lrgh@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Hunter= Rice?
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
I like HST, but he's hardly my favorite writer, or even in the top 50.
But I was very much confused by whoever criticized him for putting out
too many books a la Ann Rice......hasn't there been maybe a dozen books+
in thirty years, including collections of letters and stuff? Does this
really qualify as just churning them out?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:24:08 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Hunter= Rice?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Linda Highland wrote:
>
> I like HST, but he's hardly my favorite writer, or even in the top 50.
> But I was very much confused by whoever criticized him for putting out
> too many books a la Ann Rice......hasn't there been maybe a dozen books+
> in thirty years, including collections of letters and stuff? Does this
> really qualify as just churning them out?
i'm gonna come out of the closet and say that i actually enjoy falling
into anne rice now and then. other pop culture fiction too. and world
championship wrestling every so often.
i can see that many wouldn't care for this - but hope those complaining
about such things don't put their noses so high in the air that they get
sunburned.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:12:27 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: BUS WEST?
Anybody going west from NY to San Fran next week, maybe on the dirty dog
(Grey Hound). Let me know, maybe we can hook up.
later, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:59:56 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: more on Hunter
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, I ran across this web site today and I must say it made my evening. It
has been a thouroughly shitty day dealing with thouroughly ignorant people,
but here the sweet girl who put up her free unhip Geocities "home page" at
<http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3203/hstmp.htm> just brightened
the corners of the Stutz house with her reasoning on why a good little girl
like her would pay attention to, much less read, Hunter Thompson: "...it is
his brutal honesty that allows me to read him. He is too bright to look at
and too important to ignore."
Okay, so he bred a couple generations' worth of college boy posers, each
thinking their own Saturday night bacchanalia was the one true Literature
and each having at least one reference to _Fear and Loathing in Los Vegas_
somewhere inside their 10-page magnum opus (and it makes you cringe at that
point every time -- if you get that far). But this is no worse than those
fourth-rate, arrogant neo-beatnik coffee shop schleps that Jack & Co.
inspire to this day,
the ones whose
words fall on the page a l w a y s
like this
scattered brilliance---
all lower case
with
so
much
to
say
and no time to
listen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:35:32 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Illusions & Confessions
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"We live in a world where the fear of illusion is real." -The Tea Party.
That's what I like about the illusory quality of existence. Just by
mentioning the word "existence" you display a degree of disbelief in the
Grand Illusion. Life sucks. Your imagination sucks. Life's great. You
have a great imagination. I'm trying to work something out here. Apologies.
I think that Kerouac was all over illusions. I believe that I'm
disagreeing with Diane Carter when I write that I think Kerouac usually used
an array of substances to approach the "joy" end of the spectrum. The
"despair" side is quite easy to come across. Sure you have to know light
before you can know darkness or vice versa but only nothing's pure. (Am I
getting the Buddhist thing right?) Anyway, to hell with Saussure
for-now-maybe-ever.
Confessions: I'm almost always seriously depressed. I've experienced
some happiness and contentment clear-headed. My experiences with "joy" have
been limited: to mind-whacked simultaneous spontaneous gut-wrenching
cheek-hurting laughing sessions with some buddies just because everybody's
been quiet for awhile, to the boys lined up and taking turns at the stove
with taped-up knives (coughing, choking, spitting up lung), to tables
cluttered with empty beer bottles and filled ashtrays, to that first smoke
after the J, etc. But I don't do that sorta thing anymore. Even trying to
stop drinking. (again) Thing is, and I think I'm a little like Kerouac in
this way, peace (serenity, contentment, whatever) isn't what I really want
(right now anyway). It's gotta be all or nothing. Give me a 26 of rye and
a pack of smokes and my guitar and a park with a creek running through it
and a pretty girl walking in my direction. That'd be a start. Wait. Was I
writing about illusions?
Okay. When life sucks, it's a bad illusion. When life's great, you're blind.
Your little illusory buddy,
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:15:32 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hunter= Rice?
Reply to message from race@MIDUSA.NET of Mon, 28 Jul
>
>Linda Highland wrote:
>>
>> I like HST, but he's hardly my favorite writer, or even in the top 50.
>> But I was very much confused by whoever criticized him for putting out
>> too many books a la Ann Rice......hasn't there been maybe a dozen books+
>> in thirty years, including collections of letters and stuff? Does this
>> really qualify as just churning them out?
>
>i'm gonna come out of the closet and say that i actually enjoy falling
>into anne rice now and then. other pop culture fiction too. and world
>championship wrestling every so often.
>
there's not necessarily anything wrong with the pop stuff...but compared to
the "great literature," how can Ann Rice consider herself an author? Maybe
she can tell a good tale, but she merely puts words down on paper, she
doesn't _write_. IMHO, of course.
Diane. (H)
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:43:50 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: apologies and confession
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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hello all just like to say i am sorry for misjudging hunter t. i just
don't like pot boilers. but, some people do. hst isn't as bad as anne
rice. idid enjoy reading interveiw with a vampire (the movie was
better) although the follow-up, the vampire lestat, was crap. but not
all pop culture is poorly done- look at silence of the lambs. it was
a medicore book but a great movie. and if you want to know some real
crap, check out that post which pissed every off. i lost myself in
hypocrysoy.
_randy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:02:58 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: worth the trip
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> Thanks, D. I remember them all those Filmore posters and some of the events.
> I haven't heard from Wes Wilson in years. He sent me a special little
> drawing-message in the 70's. I wonder if he's still around? I talked to
> S.Clay Wilson on the phone today. He just turned 56. Drawing madly. Rent
> check due. Mad at the printers for wrecking his Beat-L drawing. (5 min.
> diatribe)
> cp
patricia wrote
i wore my beat t shirt and the teen ager helping me at the house ( who
is very cool) noticed it and raved. but couldn't tell what it was, he
liked that. well , i love it but i love mysteries and opaque windows.
thanks again jeff. the people who miss the bullseye are those that are
shooting.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 04:12:28 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter= Rice?
i have to agree with David on this one. Rice has put out a couple of
interesting books, the rest are so much fodder. but sometimes a cigar is just
a cigar and you do it just for the hell of it. god knows, in this life, we
all need a little escapism. if nothing else, it makes us appreciate, even
that much more, the really great writers' works.
so now you can all lambaste me, but i bet there are lots of you who sneak in
some sort of mind candy in the form of tv/film, most of which i find far more
obnoxious than a book that maybe isn't great literature, but at least has a
tiny germ of art, new perspective or idea in it. (i don't consider the likes
of Danielle Steele, and her ilk as under consideration by anyone here.)
randy's post just came in as i was writing this - movie wasn't anywhere close
to as good as the book, imho.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---
Sent: Monday, July 28, 1997 5:24 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Hunter= Rice?
Linda Highland wrote:
>
> I like HST, but he's hardly my favorite writer, or even in the top 50.
> But I was very much confused by whoever criticized him for putting out
> too many books a la Ann Rice......hasn't there been maybe a dozen books+
> in thirty years, including collections of letters and stuff? Does this
> really qualify as just churning them out?
i'm gonna come out of the closet and say that i actually enjoy falling
into anne rice now and then. other pop culture fiction too. and world
championship wrestling every so often.
i can see that many wouldn't care for this - but hope those complaining
about such things don't put their noses so high in the air that they get
sunburned.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:36:54 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Hunter= Rice?
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hst is a loud obnoxious drunk and keen writer and journalist. i don't
like him , don't want him around after 9 but he changed political press
and rubbed amerikas nose in it til we could recognize what we were
smellin, i confess to liking silly books but i don't consider hst
silly,
rice wrote a bunch of books and sold them as did many others. that only
means to me that that delicious act of reading is'nt confined to only
serious intercourse.
If one only met him (hst) and didn't read him i could see the blow off
of his work but like many talented artists , they don't have to be
pleasant or charming or elegant, they only have to do it.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:56:01 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Hunter= Rice?
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David and Sherri
You are both absolutely right. Where would we be without good genre
fiction. For me it's usually detective stuff. Or trash TV.
HST is entirely different, not a "genre" writer unless "New Journalism"
would fall into that category. He asks to be taken as a "serious"
writer and invites being held to an entirely different standard.
James Stauffer
Sherri wrote:
>
> i have to agree with David on this one. Rice has put out a couple of
> interesting books, the rest are so much fodder. but sometimes a cigar is just
> a cigar and you do it just for the hell of it. . . .
David wrote>
> i'm gonna come out of the closet and say that i actually enjoy falling
> into anne rice now and then. other pop culture fiction too. and world
> championship wrestling every so often.
>
> i can see that many wouldn't care for this - but hope those complaining
> about such things don't put their noses so high in the air that they get
> sunburned.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:36:12 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Spaghetti Poem.
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spaghetti spaghetti
al dente al dente!
al dente
al dente quality
blended from carefully
selected durum wheat
al dente al dente!
al dente
cookin'for
the recommended time
gives u
perfect enjoy!
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:38:05 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Robert Creely (the painting illustrates the poetry).
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
... by Robert Creely
Inside my head a common room
a common place, a common tune...
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:07:12 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Patricia Elliott: HST musings
Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com
Dear Patricia:
You wrote: "HST is a loud obnoxious drunk and keen writer and
journalist...."
I have met HST twice. The first time was in Connecticut in the summer of
1981, he was scheduled to give one of his "lectures" at a university, and a
friend and I decided to take our chances and crash the event. This was not a
problem, we sort of snuck in with a wink of the loose gatekeepers, I can't
recall this part exactly. Just before entering the lecture hall, HST burst
into the lobby of the building with some others, who I think had set up his
appearance, in tow. He was very tall and looked exactly as I expected him
to, only slightly less of a caricature than "Uncle Duke", complete with
cigarette holder, Hawaiian shirt, etc. I sensed that he was self-consciously
"on", knowing that all his comments and behavior would get the attention of
his fans. The "lecture" consisted of HST fielding questions from the
audience, there was no prepared speech as such. Yes, he had a bottle of Wild
Turkey at his side at a table on stage. He was intelligible most of the
time, but did not project his voice like a public speaker, it was a
conversational style as if he were only talking one-on-one with the person
who asked a particular question, and he often trailed off into near-mumbling
at the end of statements. I recall that he was generally very pessimistic,
he really did give off a vibe of Fear and Loathing about the current and
future state of the nation and world. This was during the dawn of the Reagan
era, and he did not like what he saw on the horizon. One fragment of his
talk that comes to mind is when he stated that he believed that "things are
going to get ugly", I think those are close to the exact words, in the near
future, but then said something like "I hope I'm wrong, do you think I'm
wrong?" in an almost plaintive way. After the event concluded, we went to an
exit from the auditorium where HST was expected to go through. Shortly after
we claimed a good spot there, he exited, and I approached him as a small
crowd buzzed around us. I had a then-new copy of FEAR AND LOATHING IN LAS
VEGAS with me, the copy from my college days was in a condition as if it had
been on the journey with him that it chronicles. I asked for his autograph,
he said "I've got to piss", but then took the book and scrawled something on
it. The situation sort of coagulated after that, with us hanging around
among a small group near the entrance to the men's room. When he emerged, he
asked no one in particular whether there was a bar in the vicinity. People
were just standing there looking at him like a zoo exhibit. We left at that
point. To this day I wonder if we should have been bolder and escorted him
to some bar, we didn't know the town but could have improvised I'm sure.
Anyway, after we left and I had a chance to look at what he had written on
the inside front cover of the book, I saw that it read: "To Arthur from HST-
help I must piss". It is one of the treasures of my collection.
The second time I encountered HST was during the NYU Beat Conference, in May
1994. He was scheduled to participate in one of the panel discussions, and
arrived somewhat late, with heads turning toward him as he walked up the
aisle. He took his place next to Ed Sanders, and proceeded to light up a
pipeful. I have photos of this incident of HST living up to his stereotype.
I found him insightful about the Beats, as you may know he is personally
acquainted with the key figures and crossed paths with them in NYC in his
youth during the late '50s- early '60s. It was like a reunion with
remeniscing, he reminded Allen Ginsberg, who was in the audience but not on
the panel for this discussion, of some misadventures they shared, he greeted
him with "Allen- you're still alive?" to his amusement. My favorite part of
his talk was when he told a story about a recent visit he made to WSB at his
home in Lawrence. They were shooting together in his backyard, the 2
all-time premier gun fetishists, and even HST was a little nervous. He
warned WSB that he might hit someone with the powerful gun he was shooting
with. "Don't worry, Hunter", said WSB, "those are only Christians out
there". It got a good laugh, and even though you can't always trust HST for
veracity (as WSB told me about Kerouac), it was certainly in character. I
could tell that HST greatly respected WSB for his one-of-a-kindness, coming
from another incomparable specimen. That evening at a dinner for
participants of the Conference, I met and briefly talked with HST, along with
many others such as the late Jan Kerouac and the 2 men, I forget their names,
who travel around the country and put out MONK magazine, latter-day On the
Roaders. He misplaced his hat and I happened to see it right behind him,
retrieved it and handed it to him. He thanked me, and I briefly spoke to him
amidst the din, telling him how much of an impact his works had on myself and
many friends. He humbly, almost shyly, thanked me and we shook hands. I
should note that my impression of him altogether during this second
encounter, in the public and more intimate forums, was one of warmth and
humor, as with WSB, his fierce and even menacing reputation belies a basic
humanity that shows through despite all the fireworks. My wife took some
great photos of us together during the dinner.
There has been a lot of posting about HST lately, set off by some very
negative comments. Like certain other artists (Salvador Dali comes to mind
in the visual arts), HST is as much if not more famous for his antics as for
his works, and the line between art and life is blurred almost beyond
recognition. But no amount of clowning or Gonzo behavior can bury the
significance of his best works, especially FEAR AND LOATHING IN LAS VEGAS and
FEAR AND LOATHING ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL '72. He deserves a place in the
pantheon of great and influential writers. My own Honors English thesis at
the University of Michigan (it's in there somewhere in a moldering bankers'
box) was about his works. The very choice of that topic generated a lot of
controversy among the faculty as I recall.
There is a very well-done cd performance of FALILV available, read by Harry
Dean Stanton, Buck Henry and others. I highly recommend it, it illuminates
the humor, insight and sheer chaotic energy of that classic work. It's also,
like the book, so funny that it hurt.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:00:21 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Detective Shit at old 4321
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Once upon a time a young man suffering from many frailties and
eccentricities a general paralysis of the insane lived in a rented home
on an avenue named 7 with an address of 4321. The young man chose the
apartment for the simple reason that no matter how absent minded he
became he could certainly recall his address.
After sometime living here he invited an electrician named Mo and in
some circles 4X to live with him. The young man found that while white
culture considered him to be over the edge, the african culture was very
compassionate in many many ways. Until concerns of betrayals real or
imagined broke this new connection in the human family.
Most of the events at old 4321 fall into the category of "If I tell you
I gotta kill you" but one tale of the young man seemed worth telling.
Through a series of events that are beyond explanation in this world,
the young man's car had fallen into the hands of a crippled boy in the
hood. The crippled boy was not necessarily nice but it seems some sort
of karmic balance for the crippled boy to have wheels given that his
enemies mostly had two good legs. The car engine was driven until death
hit its grips.
One day Detective Shit (not his real name!) knocks on the door at 4321.
The young man answers the door. One roommate sees THE MAN and
immediately tells Mo and then escorts a large band of ruffians out of
various nooks and crannies in the house and out a secret backdoor.
The detective enters and the young man offers him a seat on the
salvation army couch. Mo comes in and watches television and listens
playing referee. He knows that the young man is terrified of the
authorities despite the fact that he had not yet been arrested (though
he soon would be for reading "The Art of Worldly Wisdom" allowed in
Lincoln Park). So he was there for protection psychically mostly.
Detective Shit began to ask questions and the young man gave answers -
simple answers to simple questions. The art of evasion in
cross-examination being something he'd taught at the level of a zen
master for years. Every so often a laugh would appear in Mo's eyes at
how the young man was playing old detective shit. But he didn't
intercede.
Detective Shit is obviously getting somewhat frustrated because he is
being stonewalled although gently and kindly. He asks the young man if
he knew that the thief was a member of the Gangsta Disciples? The young
man smiled and said "no, is that some sort of local boys' club." At
this point Mo interceded on behalf of both saying something to the
effect that we knew OF the Gangster Disciples and that this obviously
wasn't going anywhere as the young man obviously didn't seem interested
in pressing charges against a member of the Gangster Disciples.
Detective Shit stood protesting a bit and assured whoever was listening
that this didn't mean the police wouldn't be going after the hoodlum.
Do what you gotta do.
The young man just sat like stone for awhile in the chair. Was he Ok,
did he need anything? I'm fine.
The young man went into his office that an illiterate old Joliet version
of Bad Bad Leroy Brown had helped him create to have intellectual and
literary space. He turned on the computer and wrote a letter to the
editor of the local newspaper defending the local gangs against the
malicious attacks from the paper and the community. The letter was
mailed. It was never printed.
Sometime later the young man retreated from 4321 and eventually found
another interesting number "23" to live in. He still has many many fond
memories of the friendships from the Hood.
what is true and false in the memory of events as mundane as these one
never knows for certain.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:03:19 -0400
Reply-To: SLPrdise@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MiKe KaNe <SLPrdise@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Illusions & Confessions
James M said
<<I think Kerouac usually used
an array of substances to approach the "joy" end of the spectrum. The
"despair" side is quite easy to come across. Sure you have to know light
before you can know darkness or vice versa but only nothing's pure>>
I disagree with the despair side being quite easy to come across. The fact of
the matter is that in my opinion Kerouac's drinking or use of "an array of
substances" ultimately led him to his despair. Consider Big Sur.. the last
book in the Duluoz Legend.. Kerouac's fears, paranoia, and despair are all
derived from his delirium brought on by excessive drinking. Kerouac belives
that he is losing his human-beingness which brings you back to the illusion
idea: Perhaps he was in some way losing the thing that made him "real".
Perhaps it was all in his head. My opinion is that at that time and later in
his life he was more aware of the illusions but not prepared to separate them
into their own discreet packets. No more prepared than any of us to rip down
the walls that shiled us from the brutal winds of reality.
MK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:10:35 -0000
Reply-To: jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: exit wound...did it hurt?
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exit wound
im sick of living inside opinions of orange ostriches overzealous =
zadie zebras kappacinno kangaroos drowning in fresh floridian =
concentrated witches brew froth and leopard-skinned lingerie =
lobbyists careing my briefcase automobilebiography professing the you =
should be daid map
ive smoked enough meaning existence purpose dogma house karma yeah =
its gonna get you meant to be frolicking glass river fate coincidence =
oddity of life mysticism metaphysicalexams sqeeze my godlikeballs and =
getty lee up doc get me off and ho hum pass di tums chumly truth =
power crusade journey death life death is part of that survival of =
the one-size-fits-all sluggish struggle oh oh mister moonglow then =
ill hear that always right opinion from everyone everywhere everyway =
everyhow anyhow...on a bloodsoaked highway comforting crackedchild
im tired of walking streets of hudson late night carson victoria fuck =
me michigan avenue blvd streets of coffee brim and proper and not =
having my cock go floppy flop ping pong pinball wizard gnip gnop =
jason helfman nosaj namfleh paddle ball in dancing mambo waltz =
bunnyhop chicago winds or seeing the hot knockers of blonde bitches =
balk at wrigley field or being sweatily slapped silly puttily by =
passing rollerboiling hot bloody cunts but under silk millennium moon =
ill run a naked century on ann arbor bebop hiphop hilly holiday =
pavement with hundreds of shriveled salamis wildly blowup breasts and =
drip drip drip my pants lift shirt exposing huge penis for a free =
slice of pizza anyday of the week...
im still looking for the alter-inner-outtie belly button societal =
restaurant deli unique body shop even settledown white picket fences =
for tea house lounge lizard cafe where you shotgun crackpipe wit some =
loopy lollipop fuck suck her nipple ring do a barmitzvah line dance =
naked body howling ha va nagelah ha va nagelah ha va negelah de bra =
sa cha explosion of darwiniah-freudian-kerouacrazy sandpaper floor =
fornication stand bleeding half caf double latte iced mocha spritzers =
from your back into doubled up to-go cups hitting the locust bejing =
pipe of green wisdom shoot the expresso through cock vein straight to =
the heart left for dead in heirloom rocking chair wit a half-read =
newsweek of dead innocent israelis on cover
im trapped in my cable-ready cockroach cumming modem =
plugged-into-one-of-many-universes home computer cybersex lovers =
kissing sticky keys shifting my nuts to sound of cdrom stereo playing =
with my mind and the beat the beat beat is nice rewinding my vcr =
filmmatic memories to a room of windowshade perspective of chicago =
letting them rise opening my heart to the hand of world sunlight dark =
deceptive horseradish honesty that pulls my windowshade eyes back to =
my applecore laptop that burns my catskill-eyed retina with =
electomag-cyber-hyber-hyper-gyro-and why not cyro-genetic energenical =
thoughts of escaping technology knowingly while mouth mind existence =
is deadbolted to this hobo hale-hop the trainslut track trying for =
just one free breath outside technological entrapment...or hell ill =
even pay for the motherfucker
is it too much to ask for humanity to be a ah yes delivery please =
Nosaj Namfleh 2970 north sheridan apartment fifteen-eleven chicago =
illinois a large pizza with your toppings are black white yellow =
green red American Russian Israeli Turkish Swedish Sweet-Rolled =
Danish Italian German English Indian and not claim quarter this =
quarter that half this three-quarters of whatever half this and half =
and half coffee and half something else its always something else =
have you decided sir oh yes just make it a plain pizza yep just the =
dough i perfer the pizza to be
there is a desperately seeking suicidal romanticism to rolling down =
these i guess free american plain m&m candied train tracks searching =
for perfect worlds to roll in with breaking tide spilling out a =
steamy milkydud poem on all and aloneness not knowing if this will =
ever be read or read when im dead or read while recieving head or =
giving it in velvetta bed i think as the traincab rocks electricity =
spilled into the fiddler on the roof as he peers through our open =
window lives seeing all and nothing...wonder if he cum see that red =
velvet glow of postraisinbran-masterbation on this noface
i pause higher existence yearn to network we gods share all the pain =
pleasure discontent happiness loathing utter boredom miserable =
horribly horrid hayday hurrahs of morning hardon fucks smoking dawn =
dope dreaming of the ultra-ultimate beating rape medium-rare eyes =
stabbed by hot iron forks in clit-pierced caged lion rage whip whip =
whip my not so bony ass heather says over coffee expresso wisdom =
thoughts switch on a univeral gumball chewing chainsaw catastrophe =
zipping through my chedder cheese-great!!!ed flesh kicked in the =
gratefully gone groin screaming fourth-dimension pastrami on marble =
rye on burial plots of unburied dead dinosaurs
ginsberg is dead cloud...
meditating above columbia chicago coffee bean college gaily giggling =
at its farting artists hey hey hey there hyena much-impaired hipsters =
pretentious poets beat me senseless bohemian babboons sucking thumb =
sculptors closed captioned costume designers lost in obladi-obladuh =
land lighting directors playwright putt-putt putzzzes paddling =
plutonium rivers precumming of an unknown audience lying on duct tape =
directors and ick ick actors all dead in de cellar
i want to fuck complaints generalpattonilizations discrimmination =
racists why white supremacists nazi new york new york marching =
neophite nimrods drop atom hydrogen mushroom eggwhite no butter =
omelette bombs throw flaming matchboxes on spilled gasoline stations =
create war kill love embrace death blackmarket boaconstrictor =
turtlenecks suffocating society in well deserted youth
i need a roundhouse arthurian mace test crash dummy into a blood =
poisioned skull&crossbones mindframed stereotypes known to =
unhumankind ...so let the disco commence of jewish goblins dancing in =
pools of copper chicken broth the negro chuchbells ring ring my =
dingaling ridiculous oppression within musical bus seats the lawyers =
preaching at beaches lying dancing demons in three-ring created =
courtrooms the read my kitty kat cuntlip politicians are only polite =
to underaged voting infants and fill our holes with a greenblack =
currency with a bulk food social security screwing cock and for =
univeral sakes i could go on and on and on and on and on and on and =
on and on and on and on but i got stuff to do and a chocolate =
milkshake to inhale
i lone amoeba shoot through all dimensions after seinfeld on =
thursdays fishpondering comets i could ride constellations i could =
skim stars across glass-topped universe i could board spacepods and =
be probed on ufos and die trying to find other people so i guess ill =
just kick back on the big lazyboy big chair constellation knowing it =
is useless to believe that amid vastlochness of space properties =
physics gravitational pull my chaingang driveby laws of momentum and =
and and pendulous explained by unexplained metaphysical madness that =
the space i occupy is anything but space...and in comparison to =
everything i am nothing
save yer breath and dont beep me six feet under letting me reach full =
flattire freedom without your opinion...ders a whore in my sock
=A9Unpublished work. Jason Helfman, 1997.
Jason "donutman" Helfman
Three-Ring Creations
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:53:27 -0700
Reply-To: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Steve Smith a.k.a. Whiskey Wordsmith" <psu06729@ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU>
Subject: Re: For Patricia Elliott: HST musings
Comments: To: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970729100539_-1843928600@emout13.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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thanks verry much for an interesting and informative post re: HST,
Arthur. Mucho appreciado. HST is equal parts monster and Southern
Gentleman (cheeck out the subtitle of his Proud Highway). But he is all
writer--and he cares very much about his craft.
as he is fond of saying,
selah,
steve
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:42:42 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Patricia Elliott: HST musings
In a message dated 97-07-29 10:07:57 EDT, you write:
<< The second time I encountered HST was during the NYU Beat Conference, in
May
1994. >>
I was there too, and taking his picture before he got onto the stage. He
motions me over. I put down my camera and cautiously approached him. He says,
'Hey kid, get me a soda' and reaches into his pocket for change. He pulls out
a handfull of change in his palm, and floating amongst the change are a few
pills, which he deftly picks out with his other hand and pops them into his
mouth.
As far as I know, they could have been vitamin pills.
That is basically the end of the story except I did go out and get him his
soda and a can of Schlitz Malt Liquor (the beer that only whinos and college
kids drink). He didn't touch the beer.
I later took a picture of him lighting up in a elevator (only on his Dunhill
cigarettes) right in front of a no smoking sign.
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 13:02:08 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Chicken & Egg
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This is a reply to someone's reply. I deleted the post before I could
rememberize the name. Anyhooey...
I know this is subjective and that but I'd be willing to bet a bundle of
something that Jack's despair preceded Jack's alcoholism. (Not that it
matters)
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:56:57 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Chicken & Egg
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J.W. Marshall said:
<snip>
I know this is subjective and that but I'd be willing to bet a bundle of
something that Jack's despair preceded Jack's alcoholism. (Not that it
matters)
<fin Snip>
Situational alcoholism doesn't usually last as long or dig as deep as
Jack's did. I have seen cases of situational alcoholism that lasted 5
years (following the death of a spouse) that dug pretty deep into the
psyche and health of the abuser but was reversed by the abuser who is now
abstinent.
Chronic, hereditary alcoholism (such as mine) is most likely what Jack
suffered from. From all accounts I've read of his father and mother's
drinking patterns Jack most likely was born an alcoholic.
Addiction (in the physical sense), in and of itself, does not stem from
life situations, it is exacerbated by them. Alcoholism is a chronic,
treatable disease. Despair didn't make Jack an alcoholic, but it probably
made him drink.
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:35:04 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Illusions & Confessions
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> James William Marshall wrote:
>
> I think that Kerouac was all over illusions. I believe that I'm
> disagreeing with Diane Carter when I write that I think Kerouac usually
> used
> an array of substances to approach the "joy" end of the spectrum. The
> "despair" side is quite easy to come across. Sure you have to know
> light
> before you can know darkness or vice versa but only nothing's pure.
You may be right that Kerouac did use an array of substances to approach
the joy end of the spectrum. The darkness I think for him was easier to
experience. The problem is in thinking you can appoach joy through
substances, because that alone is an illusion. It only works for a time,
and then you are left with more despair than you started with. I agree
that Kerouac was filled with an immensity of sorrow and despair but
alcohol, in the long run, can do nothing more than make one's sense of
despair deeper. It is a depressant. Kerouac seemed to approach moments
of joy, more in solitude and seemed more sorrowful in the presence of
people. Also, to address someone else's post under this thread, it
really doesn't matter what type of alcoholism Kerouac exhibited, the
simple fact is that he had a choice at any moment to stop drinking, no
matter how hard that choice may have been.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:17:54 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Kerouac/Dharma Bums/Sadness
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I am still grappling with the Kerouac joy/despair syndrome. Read Dharma
Bums yesterday, searching for where his Buddhist studies took him. Even
here, we still have the yo-yo effect between despair and joy. One moment
he is writing, "the vision of the freedom of eternity is mine forever."
The next he is saying to himself, "Poor Raymond boy, his day is so
sorrowful and worried, his reasons are so ephemeral, it's such a haunted
and pittiful thing to have to live...Are we fallen angels who didn't want
to believe that nothing is nothing and so we were born to lose our loved
ones and dear friends one by one and finally our own life, to see it
proved?"
And there is a scene between him and Japhy (Gary Snider) that is
to the point:
Kerouac: "See, I said, "you wouldn't have even written that poem if it
wasn't for the wine made you feel good!"
Snyder: "'Ah, I would have written it anyway You're just drinking too
much all the time, I don't see how you're even going to gain
enlightenment and manage to stay out in the mountains, you'll always be
coming down the hill spending your bean money on wine and finally you'll
end up lying in the street in the rain, dead drunk, and then they'll take
you away and you'll have to be reborn a teetotalin bartender to atone for
your karma.' He was really sad about it, and worried about me, but I just
went on drinking."
Even at the end of Dharma Bums I was left with the feeling that whatever
peace he had attained alone on the mountain would disappear quickly back
in the world of people. I'm starting Desolation Angels now, and there is
an introduction in this version that was written by Joyce Johnson in
1995 (She met Jack in 1957.). She says several things that are
interesting in trying to understand his thinking about sorrow and
despair. She writes,
"He began to study Buddhism in 1954, hoping that it would provide some
answers. With penetrating insight into the roots of Jack's despair,
William Burroughs warned him, 'A man who uses Buddhism or any other
instrument to remove love from his being in order to avoid suffering, has
committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable to castration.'
Although Kerouac would achieve a deep intellectual understanding
of Buddhism and would learn to practice meditation, his pursuit of peace
had a frantic quality that was self-defeating. Through Buddhism, he
could rationalize the void he discovered within himself, but he could
never really accept it. 'That nothin' means nothin' is the saddest thing
I know,' he once confessed to Neal Cassidy the year before his
sixty-three days on Desolation Peak."
Joyce Johnson concludes, "I could always sense the shadowy presence of
Jack's spiritual pain during the months we spent together before and
after the publication of On the Road. But I remember feeling innately
resistant to his view that there was no difference between birth and
death (an argument that seemed to justify his rejection of fatherhood and
his distrust of women). I hated being reminded that Everything is
emptiness, though I never hurt Jack's feelings by saying so explicitly.
The Beat Generation writers had kicked off my own generation's
revolution. How could I believe in the Void at a time when life seemed
so full? For a while I thought I could save Jack Kerouac through loving
him. But no one could.
Years later, in 1982, my sixteen-year-old son became curious
about a small book with a black and yellow binding that he noticed on my
shelves--Alan Watts's Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. I must have bought it soon
after I met Jack, hoping to please him by attempting to understand
Busshism. When my son opened it, a piece of folded green paper fell out.
It was part of a label for Eagle Typewriter Paper. On the back was a
fragment of conversation Jack had jotted down in pencil. It reflected
his awareness of our basic philosophical conflict:
Somebody told me
that W.C. Handy had
just died--I said
'he was never even
born'--'Oh you,'
she said."
I am about to jump into Desolation Angels, clearly aware of the idea of
desolation.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:39:38 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: The Western Lands
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm 150 pages into TWL. Enjoying it thoroughly. I'm wondering if anyone
else has started reading it or if someone who has read it and / or studied
it would like to make some comments about it. I'm quite impressed with the
way Burroughs has woven past and future, religion(s) and violence. _The
Tibetan Book of the Dead_ appears to be a crucial element in understanding
the novel and as I haven't read it, I'm sure that I'm missing out on a lot
of the allusions. I look forward to hearing from anyone who might be able
to offer any insights.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 20:38:32 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Re: The Western Lands
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Race,
You're right about the Egyptian / Tibetan thing. (Just another shining
example of my stupidity). TWL _is_ the novel with the One God Universe.
What's your take on Burrough's use of this concept? Judging from your last
post it sounds as if you've got some things to say. Please say 'em so I can
look for things to say back.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:49:37 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Anne Rice
okay, guys - so she's no kerouac or ginsberg...
but it is a different style of writing. as unpopular as my view may be, i
think she has excellent characterization skills and tells a story quite well.
but to each his/her own...:)
apples and oranges...
or at least oranges and lemons,
jenn
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:10:00 CDT
Reply-To: Gary Shank <P30GDS1@MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gary Shank <P30GDS1@MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 28 Jul 1997 to 29 Jul 1997
The following is a legitimate appeal. If you are offended
by my use of email in this manner, please flame me at
gshank@niu.edu and not Allan. Please feel free to pass
along this message as well...
thank you for your attention and patience
gary shank
gshank@niu.edu
Dear Top5 Subscribers,
My name is Chris White, and you may know me as the owner and
editor of The Top 5 List. I apologize in advance for using
this venue for something other than Top5 or comedy, but I
assure you this is of sufficient urgency to warrant it.
I am forwarding a message from a friend of mine, Alan Kuo,
who is dying of leukemia and has only a few months to live
unless he can find a bone marrow donor who matches him.
I assure you that this is no e-mail hoax, as I know Alan
personally and have known of his condition for some time now.
I hope that this is one instance where the awesome power of
the Internet can truly make a difference.
If you have no interest, then you needn't read further.
For those of you who *are* interested, here's Alan's message.
Thank you for anything you can do to help.
Sincerly,
Chris
July 24, 1997
Dear friends, apologies for the mass-mailing and for the delays.
Most of you have not heard from me for awhile, or at best received a
cursory note saying that I was busy. I owe each of you an
explanation. When reading what follows, I ask that you think of
pleasant times and conversations, both profound and light-hearted,
that I have had with each of you. Without further ado, here is my
explanation:
As each of you already knows, I have been suffering from chronic
myelogenous leukemia for more than two years. Various attempts to
control or eradicate the cancerous bone marrow cells have so far
failed. But at least my doctor and I were able to keep the cancer at
bay to the extent that I could function as a normal and real human
being. For the past two years I have sought treatments, worked and
played, traveled and enjoyed the big and little things in Life,
continued old friendships and even built new ones, and found Love.
So in a sense my cancer was not real, it was merely an abstraction
from a blood smear.
Now everything has changed, and not for the better. On July 7, 1997,
I was diagnosed as entering 'blast crisis', where the erstwhile
chronic leukemia becomes acute and chemotherapeutic regimens become
but delaying actions to forestall the inevitable. From three to six
months from now my cancerous marrow cells will proliferate out of
control and kill me, unless they are ruthlessly eradicated and
replaced with someone else's healthy bone marrow. Of course that
healthy marrow must be tissue-compatible with me (must 'match' me).
Most of you already know about the existence of bone marrow donor
registries, that no one on those registries matches me, and that the
best chance of finding someone who matches me is to add as many
Asians as possible to those registries. And many of you, thankfully,
have made great efforts to add Asians to those registries.
Unfortunately, despite two years of effort, we have not yet found a
match for me. So today, I ask you to join me to try again. I say,
One last push. Because THIS IS IT.
So what to do? Just get every Asian on the planet registered.
Here's how to do it:
1. If you are Asian, get yourself registered. And your relatives
too. In the USA, it's free.
2. Get all your Asian friends, colleagues, and associates registered.
3. Pass this note (soft and hard copies) or selected parts of it to
everyone, and I mean EVERYONE. I have written a 'personal appeal'
at the bottom of this email that should be suitable for this
purpose. The same appeal appears on my new website.
4. Website, what website? It should be up-and-running by the time
you get this email. It is rudimentary, but is improving. The
technical master behind it is Ben Burbridge and technical
difficulties shall be made known to him. This website contains all
sorts of stuff that are useful in order to get registered and to
convince other people to register. Feel free to copy or download
anything there. The URL is www.slip.net/~rwwood
5. Volunteer for registration drives, or organize one yourself. An
easy way to do this is to call up one of the non-profit organizations
that exist to register Asians. There is also no reason you might not
donate technical expertise or money to these or other such
organizations. In the USA, the major non-profits are:
Asian American Donor Program (AADP)
2363 Mariner Square Drive, Suite 241
Alameda, CA 94501 USA
1-800-593-6667
510-523-3366 phone
510-523-3790 fax
asamdonors@aol.com
Asians for Miracle Marrow Matches (A3M)
Casa Heiwa, 231 E. 3rd St.
Los Angeles, CA 90013 USA
1-888-A3M-HOPE
213-473-1661 phone
a3m@ltsc.org
Cammy Lee Leukemia Foundation (CLLF)
37 St. Marks Place, Suite B
New York, New York 10003 USA
1-800-77-CAMMY
212-460-5983 phone
212-460-5971 fax
cllf@juno.com
Buddhist Compassion Relief
Tzu-Chi Foundation USA (BCRTCFUSA)
1000 S. Garfield Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 91801 USA
626-281-9801 marrow hotline
626-281-3383 phone
626-281-9799 fax
buddhist.tzu.chi.free.clinic@worldnet.att.net
6. Do your own thing. For example, Ray Lin has today taken it upon
himself to contact every news agency in the San Francisco Bay Area
and talk them into running a story about me. Holle Singer filmed an
interview with me in New York to be used as a public service
announcement. Ben of course created the website. Others of you have
volunteered to write newspaper articles or to create videos or to
contact Asian community organizations or Asian churches. Translation
of my personal appeal into Korean and Vietnamese is a must (I already
have people doing Chinese and Japanese).
7. For more information, consult the website, contact the non-profits,
or talk to my parents James and Joyce [djea88a@prodigy.com], my
sister Zenda [zendakuo@compuserve.com], or my sweetie Ako [ah@aapcho.
org]. DO NOT REPLY to this email address, as it is temporary.
I find this letter strange, because as you know I am a fairly
independent kind of person. But for the first time I truly truly
need your help. Without it I definitely will not make it to your
next birthday party. ;)
Good luck, take care, and of course, be most excellent to your
friends. Love, Alan
PERSONAL APPEAL follows
Hello. My name is Alan Kuo. I have only three months left to live,
according to my doctors. Only someone like you can save me. This is
why:
I have leukemia, a cancer of the blood. The only known cure for this
disease is a bone marrow transplant. Without it I will die. To
receive a transplant, I must find a tissue-matched donor. Because
tissue type varies by ethnicity, my matching donor will most likely
be found among people like myself, people of Asian descent - like
you.
So far, I have not found a matching donor.
This is why I am appealing to you, a fellow Asian, to ask for your
help. You and your friends can make the difference between life and
death for me, as well as for others present and future who suffer
from this cancer. It takes just fifteen minutes of your time, a
simple blood test will determine if you are my match. Please help
save my life by registering with your local marrow donor program.
My parents are immigrants from China and Taiwan, and I love them and
my sister dearly. My family has pushed me to study hard at Harvard
and to earn my PhD at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; I am
presently doing biomedical research at the University of California
at San Francisco, a premier medical center which is also treating my
leukemia. I am sad that my promising career is being prematurely
terminated by a random disease. I am far more saddened by the
possibility of being separated forever, in as little as three months,
from my family, from my many friends, and from my dear Ako. And I
wish more than anything to continue enjoying this blessing we call
Life. So please get your tissue typed, you might save a life.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:58:26 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: WSB and U2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
its been known by various sources that Bono of U2 is one of many
musicians who admire Burrough's work. If anyone dares to watch MTV these
days, check out the new U2 song "last night on earth". Burroughs makes a
guest appearance towards the end of the video. Apparently the video is
about the apocalypse. Bono and the boys are desperatly looking for a way
out, only to run into Burroughs in the end who is holding a strange
mirror-like object that emits strange bright rays. Leave it to Old Bull
Lee to save the day :)
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:17:26 -0500
Reply-To: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB and U2
Comments: To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.970730005535.17174B-100000@turbo.kean.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hmm... i saw the video the other day and thought it was him, but wasn't
sure. just to note, my hometown is pictured in the background of one of
the very last scenes... joyous, eh? -jEnn in k.c.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Hipster Beat Poet. wrote:
> its been known by various sources that Bono of U2 is one of many
> musicians who admire Burrough's work. If anyone dares to watch MTV these
> days, check out the new U2 song "last night on earth". Burroughs makes a
> guest appearance towards the end of the video. Apparently the video is
> about the apocalypse. Bono and the boys are desperatly looking for a way
> out, only to run into Burroughs in the end who is holding a strange
> mirror-like object that emits strange bright rays. Leave it to Old Bull
> Lee to save the day :)
> jason
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 01:00:52 -0500
Reply-To: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>
Subject: Re: BEAT-L Digest - 28 Jul 1997 to 29 Jul 1997
Comments: To: Gary Shank <P30GDS1@MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997073000162755@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
dear beat-l-ers. sorry again for this msg which does not pertain directly
to beat related info, but i'd like to throw in my two cents. i am an
18 yr old asian grrl and have been a part of the bone marrow donor
registry since the day of my 18th birthday, and will be a member
until i turn 60. today i received _the marrow messenger_, a newsletter for
ppl who are a part of the national marrow donor registry. inside is a
touching article about the need for minority donors. "the greatest chance
of finding a match is within one's own racial or ethnic group." while the
number of minority donors has increased greatly in the last 6 yrs, there
can never be too many. i'd like to support alan and ask ppl to sign up
with the registry as soon as possible. donating bone marrow and other
blood material can help save lives. and if you're unable to donate bone
marrow, $$ donations of any amount are just as important. they help to
fund important
R&D. the medical procedures being developed to aide in these processes
have the potential to be more convienient for the donor, and more
effective for the recipient. an example is the _peripheral blood stem
cell transplant_ option. it includes a process similar to the one
used for donating
platelets. initially, all it takes is a few minutes for a nurse to draw
your blood to be tested for your 'tissue type.' then your name and type go
into a computer database and waits until a match is found. whether you
choose to donate once you've been matched-up is totally up to you.
(however, i wouldn't suggest registering if you _never_ intend to donate)
have a heart and take the time. who knows, it may be your best friend's,
next door neighbor's, or future partner's life you save. -E. jEnnIfEr c.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Gary Shank wrote:
> The following is a legitimate appeal. If you are offended
> by my use of email in this manner, please flame me at
> gshank@niu.edu and not Allan. Please feel free to pass
> along this message as well...
> thank you for your attention and patience
> gary shank
> gshank@niu.edu
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Top5 Subscribers,
>
> My name is Chris White, and you may know me as the owner and
> editor of The Top 5 List. I apologize in advance for using
> this venue for something other than Top5 or comedy, but I
> assure you this is of sufficient urgency to warrant it.
>
> I am forwarding a message from a friend of mine, Alan Kuo,
> who is dying of leukemia and has only a few months to live
> unless he can find a bone marrow donor who matches him.
>
> I assure you that this is no e-mail hoax, as I know Alan
> personally and have known of his condition for some time now.
> I hope that this is one instance where the awesome power of
> the Internet can truly make a difference.
>
> If you have no interest, then you needn't read further.
> For those of you who *are* interested, here's Alan's message.
>
> Thank you for anything you can do to help.
>
> Sincerly,
> Chris
>
>
> July 24, 1997
>
> Dear friends, apologies for the mass-mailing and for the delays.
> Most of you have not heard from me for awhile, or at best received a
> cursory note saying that I was busy. I owe each of you an
> explanation. When reading what follows, I ask that you think of
> pleasant times and conversations, both profound and light-hearted,
> that I have had with each of you. Without further ado, here is my
> explanation:
>
> As each of you already knows, I have been suffering from chronic
> myelogenous leukemia for more than two years. Various attempts to
> control or eradicate the cancerous bone marrow cells have so far
> failed. But at least my doctor and I were able to keep the cancer at
> bay to the extent that I could function as a normal and real human
> being. For the past two years I have sought treatments, worked and
> played, traveled and enjoyed the big and little things in Life,
> continued old friendships and even built new ones, and found Love.
> So in a sense my cancer was not real, it was merely an abstraction
> from a blood smear.
>
> Now everything has changed, and not for the better. On July 7, 1997,
> I was diagnosed as entering 'blast crisis', where the erstwhile
> chronic leukemia becomes acute and chemotherapeutic regimens become
> but delaying actions to forestall the inevitable. From three to six
> months from now my cancerous marrow cells will proliferate out of
> control and kill me, unless they are ruthlessly eradicated and
> replaced with someone else's healthy bone marrow. Of course that
> healthy marrow must be tissue-compatible with me (must 'match' me).
>
> Most of you already know about the existence of bone marrow donor
> registries, that no one on those registries matches me, and that the
> best chance of finding someone who matches me is to add as many
> Asians as possible to those registries. And many of you, thankfully,
> have made great efforts to add Asians to those registries.
> Unfortunately, despite two years of effort, we have not yet found a
> match for me. So today, I ask you to join me to try again. I say,
> One last push. Because THIS IS IT.
>
> So what to do? Just get every Asian on the planet registered.
> Here's how to do it:
>
> 1. If you are Asian, get yourself registered. And your relatives
> too. In the USA, it's free.
>
> 2. Get all your Asian friends, colleagues, and associates registered.
>
> 3. Pass this note (soft and hard copies) or selected parts of it to
> everyone, and I mean EVERYONE. I have written a 'personal appeal'
> at the bottom of this email that should be suitable for this
> purpose. The same appeal appears on my new website.
>
> 4. Website, what website? It should be up-and-running by the time
> you get this email. It is rudimentary, but is improving. The
> technical master behind it is Ben Burbridge and technical
> difficulties shall be made known to him. This website contains all
> sorts of stuff that are useful in order to get registered and to
> convince other people to register. Feel free to copy or download
> anything there. The URL is www.slip.net/~rwwood
>
> 5. Volunteer for registration drives, or organize one yourself. An
> easy way to do this is to call up one of the non-profit organizations
> that exist to register Asians. There is also no reason you might not
> donate technical expertise or money to these or other such
> organizations. In the USA, the major non-profits are:
>
> Asian American Donor Program (AADP)
> 2363 Mariner Square Drive, Suite 241
> Alameda, CA 94501 USA
> 1-800-593-6667
> 510-523-3366 phone
> 510-523-3790 fax
> asamdonors@aol.com
>
> Asians for Miracle Marrow Matches (A3M)
> Casa Heiwa, 231 E. 3rd St.
> Los Angeles, CA 90013 USA
> 1-888-A3M-HOPE
> 213-473-1661 phone
> a3m@ltsc.org
>
> Cammy Lee Leukemia Foundation (CLLF)
> 37 St. Marks Place, Suite B
> New York, New York 10003 USA
> 1-800-77-CAMMY
> 212-460-5983 phone
> 212-460-5971 fax
> cllf@juno.com
>
> Buddhist Compassion Relief
> Tzu-Chi Foundation USA (BCRTCFUSA)
> 1000 S. Garfield Ave.
> Los Angeles, CA 91801 USA
> 626-281-9801 marrow hotline
> 626-281-3383 phone
> 626-281-9799 fax
> buddhist.tzu.chi.free.clinic@worldnet.att.net
>
> 6. Do your own thing. For example, Ray Lin has today taken it upon
> himself to contact every news agency in the San Francisco Bay Area
> and talk them into running a story about me. Holle Singer filmed an
> interview with me in New York to be used as a public service
> announcement. Ben of course created the website. Others of you have
> volunteered to write newspaper articles or to create videos or to
> contact Asian community organizations or Asian churches. Translation
> of my personal appeal into Korean and Vietnamese is a must (I already
> have people doing Chinese and Japanese).
>
> 7. For more information, consult the website, contact the non-profits,
> or talk to my parents James and Joyce [djea88a@prodigy.com], my
> sister Zenda [zendakuo@compuserve.com], or my sweetie Ako [ah@aapcho.
> org]. DO NOT REPLY to this email address, as it is temporary.
>
> I find this letter strange, because as you know I am a fairly
> independent kind of person. But for the first time I truly truly
> need your help. Without it I definitely will not make it to your
> next birthday party. ;)
>
> Good luck, take care, and of course, be most excellent to your
> friends. Love, Alan
>
> PERSONAL APPEAL follows
>
> Hello. My name is Alan Kuo. I have only three months left to live,
> according to my doctors. Only someone like you can save me. This is
> why:
>
> I have leukemia, a cancer of the blood. The only known cure for this
> disease is a bone marrow transplant. Without it I will die. To
> receive a transplant, I must find a tissue-matched donor. Because
> tissue type varies by ethnicity, my matching donor will most likely
> be found among people like myself, people of Asian descent - like
> you.
>
> So far, I have not found a matching donor.
>
> This is why I am appealing to you, a fellow Asian, to ask for your
> help. You and your friends can make the difference between life and
> death for me, as well as for others present and future who suffer
> from this cancer. It takes just fifteen minutes of your time, a
> simple blood test will determine if you are my match. Please help
> save my life by registering with your local marrow donor program.
>
> My parents are immigrants from China and Taiwan, and I love them and
> my sister dearly. My family has pushed me to study hard at Harvard
> and to earn my PhD at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology; I am
> presently doing biomedical research at the University of California
> at San Francisco, a premier medical center which is also treating my
> leukemia. I am sad that my promising career is being prematurely
> terminated by a random disease. I am far more saddened by the
> possibility of being separated forever, in as little as three months,
> from my family, from my many friends, and from my dear Ako. And I
> wish more than anything to continue enjoying this blessing we call
> Life. So please get your tissue typed, you might save a life.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:08:17 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: september song:the music of kurt weill
In-Reply-To: <199707290341.XAA09328@mailhub.southeast.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear beat-L,
i remember hst's works like a bunch of bats over a shark car.
words & vampires. september song in the background.
---
yrs
Rinaldo
*
"Tristo e' quel discepolo che non avanza il maestro"
-- Leonardo da Vinci
*
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:43:23 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: U2 and Beats
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
jason and jEnn,
I don't know if "The Making of Pop" ever aired in the U.S. but I posted a
while back that Allen Ginsberg read the lyrics to "Miami" on it. It was
pretty cool. Bono appears to have been influenced by this beat as well.
I think a whole hell of a lot of bands have been influenced by the beats.
A pretty decent Canadian band, I Mother Earth, makes a point of
acknowledging the movement on their latest (interactive) cd: "Scenery and
Fish". One of their songs, "Raspberry" strikes me as quite beat: "Held in
my hands, a warm cup of skin always taken in by peers and friends and the
heightened fears over the years. Now I know I'm not like everyone... I know
I can say, I'm honest with myself and with my red tasty gem. And sure they
will try, but they can't take away my secret loving friend. And on a good
day, my mind is like the country... green wide open. A breath of zen that's
nice on the eyes, lonely, without a prayer. Take the trip that I have. I
am at risk but I guess you know... Explosions from the goldfish bowl.
Visions of blue girls crying stars. The more the garden sings the harder it
gets to stay in. There are a lot of choices so many voices ruling me. So
many of them at once yelling, 'everything's a mess'... I know".
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:49:38 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: ginsberg and U2
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
i went to the U2 Popmart show and i do remember seeing allen ginsberg's
face on the video wall during one of the songs. I also saw the making of
pop which did air in the states with allen reading lyrics from the song
"miami". The most quoted beat-figure by musicians is still Burroughs. How
could you blame anyone for that? He did coin the word "heavy metal" long
before anyone else did.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:42:34 -0400
Reply-To: Goose Bumping Records <frsn@INTAC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Goose Bumping Records <frsn@INTAC.COM>
Subject: Lowell
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
My friend and I are taking a bit of a pilgrimmage to Mr. Kerouac's
hometown, and I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on what we
should go out of our way to see, and any other information that might be
relevant.
Thanks, oh, and please reply privately, off the list,
Thanks again,
Steve
www.beatcafe.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:06:45 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ginsberg and U2
Comments: To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:49 AM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>i went to the U2 Popmart show and i do remember seeing allen ginsberg's
>face on the video wall during one of the songs. I also saw the making of
>pop which did air in the states with allen reading lyrics from the song
>"miami". The most quoted beat-figure by musicians is still Burroughs. How
>could you blame anyone for that? He did coin the word "heavy metal" long
>before anyone else did.
I think the Chemists beat William Burroughs in coining this phrase.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:29:35 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: SF Bay Area Beat-L Bash
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Any Beat-l folks within reach of the SF Bay area on the evening of
August 2 are reminded of the SF Bay Area Beat-L Bash. Don't miss this
great opportunity to put a person with the e-mail tag you've come to
love or hate.
Cheap Red Wine,
Mad talkathons
Visions and Hallucinations optional.
Please backchannel for information and directions.
James Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:48:24 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Ginsberg reference [Modern Painters v10#2p68
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<<Om>>
Allen Ginsberg was born in about 1927. He became famous in the '50s for
his poem _Howl_ and then he became a spokesman for world peace. In the
'60s he chanted Om against the Pentagon. He did a lot of breathing
exercices and chanting and he was influenced by Charles Olsen who did
breathing too. But soon he was influencing everyone himself. When he
died he was being filmed by TV. I saw him give a reading at the
Roundhouse once, in 1979, with Peter Orlovsky, who had just published a
good book of poems called _Clean Asshole and Vegetable Poems_. They
both read their stuff and then Allen Ginsberg did some chanting and
singing, and it was really moving, even though it sounds embarrassing.
Before that, he was in Bob Dylan's film _Renaldo and Clara_, which was
four hours long. It was hardly ever any good. Even when Bob Dylan
played really well in it, which he did often, he was wearing white
make-up and black eye shadow, and a cowboy hat with a feather in it, and
it was impossible to watch. But the worst bits were when Allen Ginsberg
came on. Somehow it was just even more unwatchable then. I don't know,
there's something about Allen Ginsberg -- he has to be edited, and that
was an incredibly rambling unstructured film. It just wasn't a good way
to experience the Ginsberg act.
=-=--Douglas
----> o{--- [ babu@electriciti.com
(Alfred Korzybski) www.electriciti.com/babu/
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:48:30 -0400
Reply-To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: ???
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
i have a question...
i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
drugs?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:06:07 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:48 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>i have a question...
>i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
>drugs?
>
>
Do you mean did or do?
I don't think there are many beats now. I unfortunately think too many here
or who id with "the beats" do do dugs today.
I think one aspect of On the Road and other kerouac and beat writing that
intrigues and interests people is the drug use. If a young person is doing
drugs (smoking dope onl even) reading On the Road strikes a chord.
At the same time I'll bet there are folks who read it who have never used drugs.
I once (and have told this story before) reccommended my friend buy Visions
of Gerard for his sister's birthday. She never used drugs and was a serious
Catholic, even worked for Mother teresa's group for a while.
And she loved the book. I don't think she'd read anything quite like it.
So drugs don't necessarily have to be part of the interest or the reason for
liking "beats" but I think that most definately they play a large role.
Probably too large.
I think drugs are a big waste of time and money and everything else.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:18:51 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199707302348.QAA17041@mailtod-1.alma.webtv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Julian Ruck trolled:
> i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
> drugs?
hmm. yeah, no beats use drugs, depending on what you call them. what are
drugs? would that be _any_ drug -- as in, any animal/vegetable/mineral
substance used in the composition of medicine? coffee, tea, etc. -- or
dangerous lethal legal drugs like saccharine alcohol tobbaco phen-fen (sp),
or just drugs that are illegal "controlled substances" in the us (but not
all other countries)? also illegal during what years? because marijuana was
legal when most of the beats were born in the 20s, so if they used it as
children it wouldn't have been an illegal drug. ecstasy was legal until
1985, so...hmm, which drugs?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:11:35 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: ???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> i have a question...
> i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
> drugs?
define drugs, coffee, alcoh, medicinal, opiates, define beats , lol
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:19:01 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: ???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael Stutz wrote:
>
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Julian Ruck trolled:
>
> > i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
> > drugs?
>
> hmm. yeah, no beats use drugs, depending on what you call them. what are
> drugs? would that be _any_ drug -- as in, any animal/vegetable/mineral
> substance used in the composition of medicine? coffee, tea, etc. -- or
> dangerous lethal legal drugs like saccharine alcohol tobbaco phen-fen (sp),
> or just drugs that are illegal "controlled substances" in the us (but not
> all other countries)? also illegal during what years? because marijuana was
> legal when most of the beats were born in the 20s, so if they used it as
> children it wouldn't have been an illegal drug. ecstasy was legal until
> 1985, so...hmm, which drugs?
i just ate some raisins - does that count?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:28:09 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33DFD9F5.1DC2@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> i just ate some raisins - does that count?
hmm. define "raisins." define "i" -- and while you're at it, definte "count."
hmm. define the words you used to definte these terms.
hmm. what is drugs and beats?
hmm. what am i saying?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:26:50 -0400
Reply-To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: ok ok...
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
alright, you all know very well what i mean by drugs...
i mean mind-altering substances that can have potentialy disasterous
effects on your nervous system and/or brain...
examples...
pot, lsd, ecstacy, speed...etc...
i just had a question and now people are getting so uptight and
smart-assy about it....
does the use of the afore-mentioned drugs play as big a role in the life
of a beat as it is generally thought...
-julian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:35:20 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199707310026.RAA16319@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Julian Ruck wrote:
> alright, you all know very well what i mean by drugs...
actually, no not sure...i thought i knew what 'drugs' were once, but then i
read a lot of books.
> i mean mind-altering substances that can have potentialy disasterous
> effects on your nervous system and/or brain...
> examples...
> pot, lsd, ecstacy, speed...etc...
any chemical can have potentialy disasterous effects on your nervous system
and/or brain, so you would have to include a lot more than just those you
list. i think what you are getting at is the chemicals currently unpopular
with the us government as well as christianity and other organized
religion-businesses.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:49:33 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: ???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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None worthy of the name, in my not always humble opinion. An Oxymoron.
Sort of like Hells Angels for Christ--the idea of clean and sober
Beatdom.
Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> i have a question...
> i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
> drugs?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:47:20 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>any chemical can have potentialy disasterous effects on your nervous system
>and/or brain, so you would have to include a lot more than just those you
>list.
Like what?
If there are so many, name them.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:48:44 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Funny how peole get into their defensive closed mind set mode when something
close to their hearts is mildly criticized.
Close minded wimps.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:50:34 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: definition of beat
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
i think the definition of beat is being steadfastly against being
steadfastly against anything or nothing. ... or something else.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
my drugs are prescribed.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:22:02 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199707310047.RAA29724@hsc.usc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
Timothy K. Gallaher said, "Funny how peole get into their defensive closed
mind set mode when something close to their hearts is mildly criticized.
"Close minded wimps."
It always has to get ugly around here. Why? Why do I get the worst kneejerk
politically correct types after me whenever i open my mouth on this list?=
=20
> >any chemical can have potentialy disasterous effects on your nervous sys=
tem
> >and/or brain, so you would have to include a lot more than just those yo=
u
> >list.
>=20
> Like what?
>=20
> If there are so many, name them.
sorry you had a bad trip once, but here's your fucking list. infinitely
shorter than it could be -- though i believe ginsberg burroughs and hunter
thompson would all be equally impressed by my drug reference library -- but
i don't have time for this shit tonight.
i'm not going to list the ones which only have adverse effects in rare
instances (of which lsd and marijuana are included), so these are all big
players in that department:
serzone
effexor
disepramine=20
dextromethorphan
dexfenfluramine
fen-phen
melatonin
nutmeg
ibogaine
guaran=E1=20
serotonin
bufotenine
amanita muscaria
aspartame
prozac
nicotine (one drop will kill you)
codeine
salvia divinorum
caffeine (yes always affects brain, and _can_ induce psychomotor agitation,=
diuresis and cardiac arrhythmia)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:47:29 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Julian Ruck wrote:
>
> i have a question...
> i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
> drugs?
***
Break on through to the other side of that damn picture tube; inhale and
suck in some radiation; let your limbic system glow neon as you fire up
some negativly charged electrons, jack that shit off good, burn on into
prime time inside that Bardoless propaganda box -- DARE speaks your
mind, burnt from the sublime -- crunch up a transister; roll it up;
smoke it up; jab another up your ass; the nightly news approaches; hold
that sacred remote tight against yaself; yage know that I would be a
liar, if I were to say to you, I don't think we can get much higher, but
dead set against abiguity, unaware, the unwashed speaks, lit my fire up
anything water soluble cooked down or not... change the channel please.
***
Michael L. Buchenroth
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:19:56 -0400
Reply-To: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV administrator
<owner-LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: RFC822 error: <E> Mail origin cannot be determined.
Comments: RFC822 error: <E> Original tag data was -> Bil Brown <>
From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV administrator
<owner-LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199707310026.RAA16319@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Alright. This string of nonesensicaal meandering is getting out of hand...
We know w3hat you meana ... MOST OF THE BEATS are just as bitchy when you
say drugs as the ppl on this listserve. You, my friend are a bit confused
when you say "drugs" have a disasterous effect on the nervous system. LSD
is one example that you shouldn't use (look it up, why don't you) and if
you want to talk opiates... dearie Heroin is one of the safest drugs
around when it comes to the body (hygene is a different story of
course...)
I think what you are refering to is the Beat's (" " ) use of illegal
substances... um, I think the movement was about the initiate "deranging
the senses" to get to a point where they could tell the difference between
bogus "law" and the real "order" of things... so: NO is an answer to your
most unflattering question.
Bil Brown
Try me @___
bil@orca.sitesonthe.net____________________________________________________IfI
don't reply there... IF I don't repy there...
try me @ VOXPOET2@aol.com...
if I'm not there...hmf... call me on the phone if you can.... : )
____________________ *__________________________
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Julian Ruck wrote:
> alright, you all know very well what i mean by drugs...
> i mean mind-altering substances that can have potentialy disasterous
> effects on your nervous system and/or brain...
> examples...
> pot, lsd, ecstacy, speed...etc...
> i just had a question and now people are getting so uptight and
> smart-assy about it....
> does the use of the afore-mentioned drugs play as big a role in the life
> of a beat as it is generally thought...
>
> -julian
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:04:31 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: definition of beat
Comments: To: race@midusa.net
In a message dated 97-07-30 22:29:57 EDT, the very racy race writes:
<<
i think the definition of beat is being steadfastly against being
steadfastly against anything or nothing. ... or something else.
>>
I think the definition of "Beat" is, "A person who doesn't sit around
wondering what the definition of 'Beat' is."
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:30:48 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: if you were a character from a Beat book....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
here's a thinking question:
if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
events) which character would you be? Personally i'd like to be Sal
Paradise or Dean because they seem to have lots of fun and adventures.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:34:05 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> Julian Ruck wrote:
> > i just had a question and now people are getting so uptight and
> > smart-assy about it....
> > does the use of the afore-mentioned drugs play as big a role in the life
> > of a beat as it is generally thought...
> a
>
> i am not smart assy, you are, what beat? you are violently against them
> (some sorts of drugs ) but you insist that "them" is all the same to us.
> tain't to me. If it is smart assey to ask for a clarification of terms
> and context i get damn smart assy, i don't plan to be a good old girl
> and gee man yea, i say , what are you asking and are we speaking of the
> same items and context and what times, etc.
> i think jesus christ, where is the context to this question, might as
> well ask if jk drank or if methadone works or if
> >does mind altering drugs must be dangerous and self destructive,
what if the most destructive thing i see is the crazed war on drugs a
feeding frenzy into a police and prison state. toke and you go to prison
for life is a great beat experiance.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:46:10 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: western lands
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ah, where is wsb headed. a clue to me is that title. western lands,
sounds inviting. The book dedicated to b gyson one of wsbs most beloved
and admired people. i find it one of his most interesting books. of the
trilogy i think it is strong in his sense of space. thelanguage is the
more structured yet not missing the wild flowing nature he often
surprises you with.
I think this is a book written in kansas. the first couple of pages
show a writer, starting to free himself of a long and terrible block.
i feel a reborn movement in the book, through the animals and interest .
it is characters that feel again.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 22:32:40 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: TWL
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I've got a stupid question and a stupid analogy.
The question: The journey is to the Western Lands where, in my
understanding, one attains immortality. Why would one want to be immortal,
especially in the setting Burroughs creates?
The analogy: TWL seems like a really graphic (<-two senses of the word)
video game: secrets, obstacles and an objective. There seems to be two
ways to get to the Western Lands: through violence or peace.
A question arising from the analogy... wait. Nevermind. I think I just
figured it out.
By the way, I'm really enjoying the polytheistic versus monotheistic
thread in the novel. It's comical and incredibly sensible at the same time.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:38:42 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: graffiti
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear beat-l,
i found this site very interesting
http://www.repubblica.it/cultura_scienze/mostragraf/sullarete/sullarete.html
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 05:13:44 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: TWL
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
James William Marshall wrote:
>
> I've got a stupid question and a stupid analogy.
> The question: The journey is to the Western Lands where, in my
> understanding, one attains immortality. Why would one want to be immortal,
> especially in the setting Burroughs creates?
i'll have to think about that one.
> The analogy: TWL seems like a really graphic (<-two senses of the word)
> video game: secrets, obstacles and an objective. There seems to be two
> ways to get to the Western Lands: through violence or peace.
> A question arising from the analogy... wait. Nevermind. I think I just
> figured it out.
It seems here -- and i'm going from long term memory -- that you've got
a writer born at the gateway to the frontier, moved to Los Alamos,
travels the world and comes full circle to the environs of Quantrill's
raids. Underneath all of this is a theme as american as apple pie the
old love of the frontier. The values of the frontier. The space and
ability for movement and travel. These are all there in the Western
Lands.
> By the way, I'm really enjoying the polytheistic versus monotheistic
> thread in the novel. It's comical and incredibly sensible at the same time.
I'd promised to start some thinking about these notions - especially the
little section which makes the spare ass annie cd as One God Universe.
It begins "consider the impasse of a one God Universe. . ." I have
considered it. All too long. And far too often i go put on that cd and
listen to that partiuclar cut again and again and again. Only now and
then does such consideration lead to hospitalization :)
For now i'll just briefly suggest that the impasse described assume
that this One God would have the adventurous motive to want to move
about and do things rather than just be. I understand the creation of
Gods that play out all our greatest human dramas and have loved such
tales since childhood. But in the event that there is some form of God
beyond the Gods - a synthetic transcendence of all of these and all that
will be imagined in the future, the formation would be reversed. Rather
than being human creations as in Homer's wonderful development of Greek
characters that we know as God's, it would seem that in the event such a
God exists, it would exist prior to any human action and after.
This is exactly my problem with the entire track of One God
Universe i guess. I appears to me that the impasses suggested are all
assuming that whatever this One God is, that it is bound by human
conceptions of phsyical laws concerning space/time. Sometimes i can
imagine myself outside these realms for moments at least. It seems that
the notion of a One God Universe would definitely be able to escape
these boundaries.
Incoherencies early in the morning about Western Lands. To be
expected. No coffee yet. My copy of Western Lands is no longer with
me. I gave it along with nearly all my burroughs to a dear friend for a
holiday named Hannakuh last winter. So they are somewhere in Evergreen
Colorado or just outside it.
I created strange non-linear reading schemes in looking at Burroughs
work. I was not at all well back then. It was not exactly random cut
up. There were forms to it. I don't compleatly recall the method i
used. I remember Lynnea was the only one that could figure out what i
was doing with all the marks and slashes i would write along and then
suddenly begin writing things myself - usually unrelated to the text -
usually about me and directional notions and whatnot that the code had
unleashed. If the chronology is correct, The Ticket that Exploded led
me to The Western Lands and the Western Lands led me to Eisenhower's
autobiography and the codes applied to eisenhower's biography created
such a longing for being At Ease which corresponded with EZ in
exterminator (?) and the codes scribbles and notes formed a clear
pathway out of one or two particularly gross situations. And now i am
here, having heard a call from within the letters of words within a
chain of books, back in Salina, Kansas.
I hope to get back out to Evergreen area in late August and i'll try to
negotiate back my burroughs collection !!!! Perhaps than i can make
more sense. Or I will become more sensible.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:56:31 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:48 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>i have a question...
>i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
>drugs?
>
>
This reminds me of the character in Animal House sampling his first
marijuana cigarette: "Will I go schizo," he says.
Are the WEBtvers really starting to replace the aolers?
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:00:19 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:06 PM 7/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 07:48 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>i have a question...
>>i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
>>drugs?
>>
>>
>
>Do you mean did or do?
>
>I don't think there are many beats now. I unfortunately think too many here
>or who id with "the beats" do do dugs today.
>
>I think one aspect of On the Road and other kerouac and beat writing that
>intrigues and interests people is the drug use. If a young person is doing
>drugs (smoking dope onl even) reading On the Road strikes a chord.
>
>At the same time I'll bet there are folks who read it who have never used
drugs.
>
>I once (and have told this story before) reccommended my friend buy Visions
>of Gerard for his sister's birthday. She never used drugs and was a serious
>Catholic, even worked for Mother teresa's group for a while.
>
>And she loved the book. I don't think she'd read anything quite like it.
>
>So drugs don't necessarily have to be part of the interest or the reason for
>liking "beats" but I think that most definately they play a large role.
>Probably too large.
>
>I think drugs are a big waste of time and money and everything else.
>
>
I think Julian ought to get a job with Howard Stern asking naive questions
at press conferences, to annoy newsfigures.
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
P.S. Just kidding though, Julian, I love your stuff.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:06:04 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
Comments: To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:26 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>alright, you all know very well what i mean by drugs...
>i mean mind-altering substances that can have potentialy disasterous
>effects on your nervous system and/or brain...
>examples...
>pot, lsd, ecstacy, speed...etc...
>i just had a question and now people are getting so uptight and
>smart-assy about it....
>does the use of the afore-mentioned drugs play as big a role in the life
>of a beat as it is generally thought...
>
>-julian
>
>
julian,
I'm on your side. Fuck these critics.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:06:07 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At 09:22 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Timothy K. Gallaher said, "Funny how peole get into their defensive closed
>mind set mode when something close to their hearts is mildly criticized.
>
>"Close minded wimps."
>
>It always has to get ugly around here. Why? Why do I get the worst kneejerk
>politically correct types after me whenever i open my mouth on this list?=
=20
>
>
>> >any chemical can have potentialy disasterous effects on your nervous=
system
>> >and/or brain, so you would have to include a lot more than just those=
you
>> >list.
>>=20
>> Like what?
>>=20
>> If there are so many, name them.
>
>sorry you had a bad trip once, but here's your fucking list. infinitely
>shorter than it could be -- though i believe ginsberg burroughs and hunter
>thompson would all be equally impressed by my drug reference library -- but
>i don't have time for this shit tonight.
>
>i'm not going to list the ones which only have adverse effects in rare
>instances (of which lsd and marijuana are included), so these are all big
>players in that department:
>
>serzone
>effexor
>disepramine=20
>dextromethorphan
>dexfenfluramine
>fen-phen
>melatonin
>nutmeg
>ibogaine
>guaran=E1=20
>serotonin
>bufotenine
>amanita muscaria
>aspartame
>prozac
>nicotine (one drop will kill you)
>codeine
>salvia divinorum
>caffeine (yes always affects brain, and _can_ induce psychomotor agitation,
diuresis and cardiac arrhythmia)
>
>
This "drug" thread is the best one I've seen since
I've been on this list.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:09:37 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: definition of beat
Comments: To: Ddrooy@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:04 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-30 22:29:57 EDT, the very racy race writes:
>
><<
> i think the definition of beat is being steadfastly against being
> steadfastly against anything or nothing. ... or something else.
>
> >>
>
>I think the definition of "Beat" is, "A person who doesn't sit around
>wondering what the definition of 'Beat' is."
>
>diane
>
>
I think its high time we had a definition of "Beat!"
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:17:34 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: western lands
Comments: To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:46 PM 7/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>ah, where is wsb headed. a clue to me is that title. western lands,
>sounds inviting. The book dedicated to b gyson one of wsbs most beloved
>and admired people. i find it one of his most interesting books. of the
>trilogy i think it is strong in his sense of space. thelanguage is the
>more structured yet not missing the wild flowing nature he often
>surprises you with.
> I think this is a book written in kansas. the first couple of pages
>show a writer, starting to free himself of a long and terrible block.
>i feel a reborn movement in the book, through the animals and interest .
>it is characters that feel again.
>
>p
>
>
I think Burroughs should stop dressing like one of
the early Blues Brothers or Men in Black. He needs
to brighten it up a little and can the sunglasses.
While he is at it, he ought to drop heroin. Just
cause he has reached 80, and been hooked for fifty
years, doesn't mean he'll be able to manage the next
twenty that way.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:35:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the lord of the flies syndrome rears its ugly head again.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970730205221.1747I-100000@devel.nacs.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i agree with michael here. it is unbelievable how fast people get to the
slinging insult playground battle modality. i thought that most of the
answers were light, funny, and not at all mean. the attack on the
person/persons always throws me.
>"Close minded wimps."
well if we are closeminded wimps, what are you doing here with us? we get
playful, and people then go for the jugular and get mean and down right
nasty in response. i hate to say it, but if we are so difficult or mean in
yr opinion, sporting a bit with the idea of no drugs = no beats concept,
then whoever it was who began this as "being totally against all drugs"
should look for a young republican literature list (or is THAT an oxymoron?)
mc
feeling a bit grumbly meself this morning..
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:18:20 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:30:48 -0400
> Reply-to: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
> From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
> Subject: if you were a character from a Beat book....
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> here's a thinking question:
> if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
> beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
> events) which character would you be? Personally i'd like to be Sal
> Paradise or Dean because they seem to have lots of fun and adventures.
> jason
>
>
i geuss i would be that guy in the dharma bums who called kerouac a
drunk and didn't recongnize him as a poet (can't remember his name)
cya~randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:24:37 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
randy royal wrote:
>
> > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:30:48 -0400
> > Reply-to: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
> > From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
> > Subject: if you were a character from a Beat book....
> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> > here's a thinking question:
> > if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
> > beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
> > events) which character would you be? Personally i'd like to be Sal
> > Paradise or Dean because they seem to have lots of fun and adventures.
> > jason
> >
> >
> i geuss i would be that guy in the dharma bums who called kerouac a
> drunk and didn't recongnize him as a poet (can't remember his name)
> cya~randy
Doctor Sax of course.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:09:06 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
In-Reply-To: <33E08405.1D5B@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>randy royal wrote:
>> > here's a thinking question:
>> > if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
>> > beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
>> > events) which character would you be? Personally i'd like to be Sal
>> > Paradise or Dean because they seem to have lots of fun and adventures.
>>
dave of kansas wrote:
>>Doctor Sax of course.
>
>__________
dave, will you have my (virtual) babies?
of course dr sax!
mc
off to mt washington and really cool junkyard with DC of the list today.
and yes, i just slapped my own wrist for chatting in public in front of
gawd and all.
have a great day, everybody! it's been sunny 4 days in a week in montpelier!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:13:29 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: definition of beat
Reply to message from Ddrooy@AOL.COM of Wed, 30 Jul
>
>In a message dated 97-07-30 22:29:57 EDT, the very racy race writes:
>
><<
> i think the definition of beat is being steadfastly against being
> steadfastly against anything or nothing. ... or something else.
>
> >>
>
>I think the definition of "Beat" is, "A person who doesn't sit around
>wondering what the definition of 'Beat' is."
>
>diane
>
>
but didn't kerouac himself sit around writing articles trying to explain the
definition of "beat" for those who just didn't get it?
Diane. (H)
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:17:25 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Naked Lunch....
sorry to take up list time, but Brian (?), I in return lost _your_ e-mail,
but yeah, I'm the one trudging through NL....could you send me your address
again so I can reply to what I remeber of your message...
Is computer bumbling a beat charateristic?
Diane. (H)
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:32:13 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: drugs & the beat....
can't remember who originally started the thread...but she (I believe it was
a she) made the comment about how she was steadfast against drug use, &
asked how integral was the use of drugs for he beat experience, & then the mud
clogged up my computer screen & I had trouble making the rest out....
well, here's my take...
I could say that I'm also stead-fast against drug use, but that would be a
lie, because I drink. I don't like the use of drugs (as in substances
defined by the government to be illegal...um, as of this point in time).
Some people tell me that if pot were legal I'd think it was okay...but i
don't necessarily agree. I think I look at the effect the drug can have on
your body. I know that I can control how the alcohol affects me; I don't
know how to control other substances that are smoked or snorted or poked in
through your vein or whatever. But I don't drink alcohol to have an
affect on me (then why drink? I don't know....); but very rarely do I try
to get totally plastered. Because I kind of like feeling in control of
myself & don't want to lose that sense. I think Carolyn Cassady said it
best in Off the Road, something about how she eventually stopped smoking
marijuana because she was afraid of getting in trouble with the law & also
she resented an outside force controlling her mind.
Now I conjecture that as far as the Beats were concerned, their use of
drugs was to expand their creativity, their sense of the world, the way
they viewed life, because they felt the straight & narrow wasn't broad
enough for them to experience the IT in full. I don't think it's
pertinent to be/to have been a drug user to be beat, though. Often I've
felt beat (as I define beat, that is) even though I don't use drugs (as
stated in line, oh, whatever the hell it was). I don't think I need to
use drugs to alter my perspective; I think I can achieve that wide range of
perception without altering my mind. As for alcohol, well, that jut sputs
me to sleep--so much for broadening my experiences!
Okay, I think that's all I've got to ramble about. If you've stuck with
the post this far, more power to you. I need to shower now (a very un-beat
activity, according to the squares).
Diane. (H)
--
Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.
--Heidi A. Emhoff
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:31:56 -0400
Reply-To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: alright, here it is...
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
listen, my apologies to anyone i may have offended...
i have tried drugs in my life, i am not DARE brainwashed, i just don't
like them...i do drink, socially, and not as a means of getting
drunk....
my question was sincere, and people took it way too far, so now i am in
the position that i have to believe, because few people gave me a
straight answer, that the ones who got defensive do...
and the others either have and don't now, or never have...
the thread can end here, my question was answered.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:27:05 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
Sal Paradise
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of RACE ---
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 5:24 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
randy royal wrote:
>
> > Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:30:48 -0400
> > Reply-to: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
> > From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
> > Subject: if you were a character from a Beat book....
> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
> > here's a thinking question:
> > if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
> > beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
> > events) which character would you be? Personally i'd like to be Sal
> > Paradise or Dean because they seem to have lots of fun and adventures.
> > jason
> >
> >
> i geuss i would be that guy in the dharma bums who called kerouac a
> drunk and didn't recongnize him as a poet (can't remember his name)
> cya~randy
Doctor Sax of course.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:30:04 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
Marie,
was a dialogue. you have a perfect right to respond as you feel. if we get
so fucking serious, "scholarly" and full of ourselves that we can't share a
little humor on occasion, this list has failed in more ways than one.
ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 1997 6:09 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
>randy royal wrote:
>> > here's a thinking question:
>> > if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
>> > beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
>> > events) which character would you be? Personally i'd like to be Sal
>> > Paradise or Dean because they seem to have lots of fun and adventures.
>>
dave of kansas wrote:
>>Doctor Sax of course.
>
>__________
dave, will you have my (virtual) babies?
of course dr sax!
mc
off to mt washington and really cool junkyard with DC of the list today.
and yes, i just slapped my own wrist for chatting in public in front of
gawd and all.
have a great day, everybody! it's been sunny 4 days in a week in montpelier!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:35:47 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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<snip>
here's a thinking question:
if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
events) which character would you be? <end snip>
Ummm, too many choices:
The 'bo in the opening chapter of Dharma Bums
The mouse Kerouac kills in DA
Anyone in the truck flying across Nebraska in OTR
Kitty Carlisle, Topo Gigio or the mystery gift behind door #3.
love and lilies,
matt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:45:59 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: definition of beat
In a message dated 97-07-31 09:15:35 EDT, you write:
<<
but didn't kerouac himself sit around writing articles trying to explain the
definition of "beat" for those who just didn't get it?
Diane. (H)
>>
I'm no scholar (and proud of it, by the way) but everything one needs to know
about being "Beat," (whatever that is) can be found, tacitly spoken, in the
books, art and music of the day.
This reminds me of people who tried to define "hippies" back in the Sixties,
and that quest for definition continues today. People would have identified
me as a hippie (and many still do). But how they or we defined that was
extremely superficial, compared to the collective consciousness that gave one
a sense of tribal belonging.
Like anything, definitions fall short of reality. C.S. Lewis (not a Beat or a
hippie) rebelled against definitions of God, saying <paraphrasing here> "To
define God is to put Him in a box. Don't put my God in a box."
A lot of what we talk about here seems to smack of some need to label,
categorize and define feelings and people who were ephemeral at best. It's
more a feeling than a knowing. They was here; now they is gone. They left
something indefinable behind.
Dig it.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:44:32 -0700
Reply-To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>
Subject: Drugs and Beats
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sorry, but I can't help but jump in...
I'd have to say that the beat experience was intertwined with substance
use or abuse. Jack, for one, is almost CONSTANTLY intoxicated in his
narrations. The specific interactions between Jack and Neal, or Neal and
Allen seem almost dependent on bennies or some other form of speed.
Who would Burroughs be without the opiate experiences? Neal - Pranksters
- LSD ???? Whether it's good or bad, I don't know but the answer to the
original question is that You'd have to look far and wide to find a beat
that didn't use drugs. And then, if you found one... would he/she be
totally opposed to use as was mentioned -- I really doubt it. Oh, and
this is for the IDIOT who thinks that heroin is safe.
NEGATIVE EFFECTS
slowed and slured speech
slow gait
constricted pupils, droopy eyelids,
impaired night
vision
dry skin, itching, skin infections
vomiting (at first use, and later at high
doses)
constipation
"nodding off" (at very high doses)
decreased sexual pleasure, indifference to
sex
sedation proceeding to coma
respiratory depression
HIV infection from injection
can impair immune system
addiction
reduced appetite
slow, irregular heart rate
irregular blood pressure
menstrual irregularity
death from overdose
***********************************************************************
Before you go mouthing off about drugs, people should know the facts.
For instance, on LSD a person might mutilate themselves, commit suicide
or other horrible things BUT it is not physically addictive and it has no
toxic effect on the body. It does however, like most drugs, permanently
alters the neurological pathways of the brain. Heroin, on the otherhand
is toxic to the body, it causes extreme addiction, and let's not forget
that AIDS stigma with dirty needles. Before I get flames... it does
happen: My uncle died of AIDS from shooting up and I know people who use
heroin and think it's the coolest thing in the world. They look like
shit and I can't imagine them living too long. Heroin addiction destroys
the body. Just because you read something in a book doesn't give anyone
the right to be an expert... it certainly doesn't give you the right to
say it's safe. Do some neurological research and have a couple of your
friends/relatives mutate into a walking pile of shit. Then come talk to
me.
Chris
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:19:34 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: western lands
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970731061503.08676c3a@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Mike Rice wrote:
> I think Burroughs should stop dressing like one of
> the early Blues Brothers or Men in Black. He needs
> to brighten it up a little and can the sunglasses.
> While he is at it, he ought to drop heroin. Just
> cause he has reached 80, and been hooked for fifty
> years, doesn't mean he'll be able to manage the next
> twenty that way.
Not sure if this is facetious or not, but Burroughs' point in dressing in
the nondescript grey suit and hat was to be a nobody by looking like
everybody, by dressing the urbane businessman/accoutant/clerk/etc. he
hoped to blend in and provide no outward identification of of his
personality or interest. Nowadays, he prefers jeans and a button down
shirt, which accomplishes the same goal. And he kicked heroin and gave up
drugs long ago (don't know about alchohol/nicotine/caffeine). He's pretty
health concious as he is old as dirt and not in the best of shape;
although any shape for someone over eighty is pretty good. When my
professor met him a couple of years ago, he was described to me as "a
nice, old grandfatherly type".
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:43:15 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: plagal@WEBTV.NET
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:48:30 -0400 Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET> writes:
>i have a question...
>i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
>drugs?
no.
Brian M. Kirchhoff
howl 420@juno.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:59:01 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ???
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:56 AM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:48 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>i have a question...
>>i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
>>drugs?
>>
>>
>
>This reminds me of the character in Animal House sampling his first
>marijuana cigarette: "Will I go schizo," he says.
>
>Are the WEBtvers really starting to replace the aolers?
>
>Mike Rice
Well it obviously happened to you so why wouldn't one think that.
(sound of lame drum roll)
>mrice@centuryinter.net
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:00:27 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ???
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:00 AM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 05:06 PM 7/30/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 07:48 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>i have a question...
>>>i am stead-fast against drug-use...are there many beats who do not use
>>>drugs?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Do you mean did or do?
>>
>>I don't think there are many beats now. I unfortunately think too many here
>>or who id with "the beats" do do dugs today.
>>
>>I think one aspect of On the Road and other kerouac and beat writing that
>>intrigues and interests people is the drug use. If a young person is doing
>>drugs (smoking dope onl even) reading On the Road strikes a chord.
>>
>>At the same time I'll bet there are folks who read it who have never used
>drugs.
>>
>>I once (and have told this story before) reccommended my friend buy Visions
>>of Gerard for his sister's birthday. She never used drugs and was a serious
>>Catholic, even worked for Mother teresa's group for a while.
>>
>>And she loved the book. I don't think she'd read anything quite like it.
>>
>>So drugs don't necessarily have to be part of the interest or the reason for
>>liking "beats" but I think that most definately they play a large role.
>>Probably too large.
>>
>>I think drugs are a big waste of time and money and everything else.
>>
>>
>
>I think Julian ought to get a job with Howard Stern asking naive questions
>at press conferences, to annoy newsfigures.
>
>Mike Rice
Mike why would you want him to take your job????
That and teaching the TV news people how to be vapid are all you got.
(Lim dam rull)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:01:13 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Re: If you were a character...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If I could choose any character it'd be ":". I just like the colon. Use
mine everyday.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:01:40 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: For DC: Dharma/ Desolation/ Dualities
Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com
Diane:
In my presumptuous opinion, you have undertaken the most advisable curriculum
by reading THE DHARMA BUMS and DESOLATION ANGELS in that order. After
reading your Joy & Despair Dualities post in response to my tormented take on
the mat over the difficult, elusive issues that VOC generated, so to speak, I
was actually going to suggest that you follow TDB with DA, but you Beat me to
it in your Kerouac/Dharma Bums/ Sadness post from 7/29. I happen to have
read TDB fairly recently, in January of this year, mostly on a balcony
overlooking the ocean in Jamaica. There is a more hopeful and conventionally
"coherent" nature to TDB than to VOC, partly due to the history of its
creation as you may be aware. TDB was not one of the works written between
THE TOWN AND THE CITY and the publication of ON THE ROAD, the time in his
life when over 1/2 dozen of his greatest items languished in his rucksack, a
period of wandering of appropriately biblical 7-year length. After the
overnight sensation of OTR, JK was solicited to follow it up and sustain the
momentum, and TDB was in response to this. I recall reading somewhat cynical
comments from this period in which JK basically states that he turned out a
product that his publishers wanted and told them and his sudden flock of
readers what they wanted to hear. Notwithstanding this, I don't think it's
an inauthentic work, regardless of the circumstances, when an artist like JK
undertakes something, the results, especially the effect on a reader, are
never circumscribed by the fleeting situation of time and place in which it
occurs. To call TDB a "sellout" because he may have pandered to the
mercenary urgings of those who wanted to keep him commercially hot is as
shallow as that very attitude. Anyway, it's important to recall these
circumstances as AN element, part of what gives the book its character.
Publishers & producers, etc. always want "happy endings" unless the trend is
otherwise, so can JK's (for him) hopeful tone here be trusted? I think so,
there's no doubt that throughout his One Long Work, even the late works done
while committing suicide in slow motion, he is always groping for a life
preserver of meaning and understanding, there is an earnest search for
redemption, personal and universal, that is part of the magnetism that still
pulls us in. It may be that at this particular juncture, the influence of
Gary Snyder was strong enough to give JK more hope than usual. As mentioned
in some posts on this List, GS, while certainly a member of the Beat
Generation, involved in its critical junctures especially of course the San
Francisco Poetry Rennaissance, was distinguishable from most of the others.
I should note that it's a tricky business I'm getting involved with here,
ALL the beats were emphatically individualistid, even use of the term "Beat
Generation" sometimes leaves me uncomfortable- but within the general
acknowledgement of individuality there are certain similarities that don't
necessarily take that away from them. One of these is the indeterminacy,
sometimes as with JK reaching the point of franticness in some works, of the
quest for "IT", even the object of the quest is indeterminate, better not
blink. But with GS, the impression I have reading TDB and about him in
documentary works is that he was a lot calmer and more certain of his path of
Ascetic Natural Buddhism/Buddhist Naturalism than most of the rest were of
theirs. He was the least frantic of the bunch, and I think this rubbed off
on them, even the restless JK. He is following GS into the woods literally
and in the sincere hope that he can achieve the contentment born of
certainty, at least of the path being taken, that he percieves GS as
possessing. At the end, as suggested and arranged by GS, he arrives at
Desolation Peak and hopes for if not completely expects that in the solitude
of his lookout post, the significance of his strenuous hikes will click and
he will find peace within himself and with the world to which he'll return.
Now I finally come to my main point. It is not only chronologically proper
that you should read TDB- one follows the other exactly (though not in order
of publication). But, more importantly, and sadly as you must know by now if
you're far enough into DA, desolation is not just the name of the place, it's
the condition JK arrives back at despite his experiences with GS, by himself
and when he dives back into frantic revelries with his fellow angels in
society. It's too easy to say that, as with VOC, the bottom line is despair
and death, but the duality is certainly not compromised, it is stronger than
ever after the courses taken in TDB & DA, read as one uninterrupted, cyclical
journey. The very title itself, DESOLATION ANGELS, is resonant with
yin/yangesque duality and transcendent poignancy. I suppose what I'm getting
at boils down to this: The "syndrome" with which you (and I if it's any
consolation)are "still grappling" is still as difficult as ever by the end of
DA, being preceded chronologically and otherwise by TDB only heightens the
VOC-like indeterminacy (at best) that prevails. Again, this gets us into the
Talmudic Definition through Contrast concept of recent discussions. I read
DA much less recently than TDB, and so don't hesitate to alert me if you
think my conclusions are incomplete or inaccurate, but I think my memory of
DA is fresh enough to have arrived at these thoughts.
Finally for now, I'm dying to ask you something. In your 7/29 post you
wrote:
"The Beat Generation writers had kicked off my own generation's revolution.
How could I believe in the Void at a time when life seemed so full? For a
while I thought I could save Jack Kerouac through loving him. But no one
could.
Years later, in 1982, my sixteen-year-old son became curious about a small
book with a black and yellow binding that he noticed on my shelves- Alan
Watts's Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. I must have bought it soon after I met Jack,
hoping to please him by attempting to understand Buddhism. When my son
opened it, a piece of folded green paper fell out. It was part of a label
for Eagle Typewriting Paper. On the back was a fragment of conversation Jack
had jotted down in pencil. It reflected his awareness of our basic
philosophical conflict:
Somebody told me
that W>C> Handy had
just died- I said
'he was never even
born'-'oh you,'
she said."
Now then, am I to understand that you actually knew Jack Kerouac yourself?
The heart of the shamelessly excited fan is pounding fast, I infer that you
are somewhat older than me, if you had a 16-year-old son in 1982. I'm 38, so
I missed the boat on JK during his lifetime, I have been lucky enough to
catch up with most of the other Giants and personally encounter them while
they were/are still alive. So I'm an unabashadly awe-struck young fan
looking up to you here as older & wiser. A creeping feeling is also
gathering- should I have already recognized you in the myriad works about the
Beats that I've digested? You did tell me you are involved in academia &
writing. TELL ME ABOUT IT, please.
Somber and Thoughtful if Giddy on the Surface,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:05:17 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: ok ok...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:06 AM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
At 07:06 AM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 08:26 PM 7/30/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>alright, you all know very well what i mean by drugs...
>>i mean mind-altering substances that can have potentialy disasterous
>>effects on your nervous system and/or brain...
>>examples...
>>pot, lsd, ecstacy, speed...etc...
>>i just had a question and now people are getting so uptight and
>>smart-assy about it....
>>does the use of the afore-mentioned drugs play as big a role in the life
>>of a beat as it is generally thought...
>>
>>-julian
>>
>>
>julian,
>
>I'm on your side. Fuck these critics.
>
>Mike Rice
>
poot etre mea tulpa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:18:57 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: the lord of the flies syndrome rears its ugly head again.
Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:35 AM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>i agree with michael here. it is unbelievable how fast people get to the
>slinging insult playground battle modality. i thought that most of the
>answers were light, funny, and not at all mean. the attack on the
>person/persons always throws me.
>
>>"Close minded wimps."
>
I said close minded wimps.
And you are insulted?
I don't know why people on a beat l are so sensitive.
This is not a nasty thing to say.
Here is why I said it and wrote it spontaneously.
Some guy writes a question about if any beats don't take drugs (a rather
open ended and tenuous question but the gist of it is understandable
enough). And he also mentions he is agiants drugs or something like that.
So in repsonse he gets not silence but as he put it "smart-assy responses".
It seems to me that when people go around criticising demeaning and
insulkting others, being called a close minded wimp is peanuts.
I simply responded in kind to snotty and snobby attitudes.
And I think their attitudes were close minded. I tried to anser his
question. I believe James Stauffer did as well.
I just see these STONED OUT MORONS (and believe me I never used caps but it
is so fun to push religious fantaics buttons and watch them run for
cover--to cover their closed minds with snotty superiorities and sniditities
[look it up].
(hee hee hee this is fun)
Look you big stoners and pseudo head hippy dolts
the answer is j9dp' and you know that.
Why not talk about las drogas without being defensive and sensitive.
I liked the list that one fellow put up as well.
>well if we are closeminded wimps, what are you doing here with us? we get
>playful, and people then go for the jugular and get mean and down right
>nasty in response. i hate to say it, but if we are so difficult or mean in
>yr opinion, sporting a bit with the idea of no drugs = no beats concept,
>then whoever it was who began this as "being totally against all drugs"
>should look for a young republican literature list (or is THAT an oxymoron?)
>mc
Who owns sport.
Going for jugular?
You need to learn anatomy
>feeling a bit grumbly meself this morning..
>
>
Maybe me too.
I reacted to the comments of others.
When people put others down I have a gut reaction to then put them down.
Take care all
Vote for Ford!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:47:39 -0700
Reply-To: Tellyman <Tellyman@BIGFOOT.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tellyman <Tellyman@BIGFOOT.COM>
Organization: nah
Subject: Re: Drugs and Beats
Comments: To: dumo13@EROLS.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The person who said Heroin is one of the safest drugs is correct.
See, if you were an ex-addict like i am, you would be qualified to
speak on the deterioration (or lack thereof) of the body from H.
We all know that everyone that does Heroin is not going to get AIDS.
Your uncle died from AIDS! This was because he chose to SHOOT UP.
Doesnt matter what he was shooting, the act of using the needle is
what got him infected. Heroin does not destroy the body. Its the
abcesses from shooting up, using dirty needles, which causes them to
live a less than healthy lifestyle. All because Heroin is ILLEGAL.
I'm sorry your uncle died, but it wasnt Heroin that killed him,
because if Heroin were legal, he wouldnt have had to use dirty needles,
and would still be alive today. Sorry, had to jump in here,but i know
from what I speak....
M
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:37:51 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: the lord of the flies syndrome rears its ugly head again.
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199707311618.JAA22501@hsc.usc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> the answer is j9dp' and you know that.
what does this mean?
> When people put others down I have a gut reaction to then put them down.
i was not putting that webtv chap down, or insulting him, and i don't think
the other were, either -- just making our point of "whats drugs?" because i
can't make any distinctions here like that -- raisins? lsd worse than
alcohol? birdbrain says so, aint it true that marijuana rots yer brain like
it says on the telly? oxybiotic will make you neurotic.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:45:37 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: if you were a character from a Beat book....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> >randy royal wrote:
>
> >> > here's a thinking question:
> >> > if you could be any character from any fictional story by the
> >> > beats (yes i know kerouac and burroughs base their writings on real
> >> > events) which character would you be? Personally i'd like to be Sal
> >> > Paradise or Dean because they seem to have lots of fun and adventures.
> >>
>
> dave of kansas wrote:
> >>Doctor Sax of course.
> >
> >__________
> dave, will you have my (virtual) babies?
> of course dr sax!
> mc
> off to mt washington and really cool junkyard with DC of the list today.
> and yes, i just slapped my own wrist for chatting in public in front of
> gawd and all.
> have a great day, everybody! it's been sunny 4 days in a week in montpelier!
> mc
sorry i don't think i'm interested in virtual labor pains.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:57:28 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: 1960s
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
1960s
i myself
sitting in back of the class
precisely!
daze!
SITTING IN BACK OF THE CLASS
oh, im' not here
bleary-eyed
tiny butterflies
pinball & jazz
rage
thanks anyway!
i look around for
a rosy picture
sitting
in back
of the
classroom.
---
yrs
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:15:02 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: For DC: Dharma/ Desolation/ Dualities
In-Reply-To: <970731120138_412469474@emout06.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
> Years later, in 1982, my sixteen-year-old son became curious about a small
> book with a black and yellow binding that he noticed on my shelves- Alan
> Watts's Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. I must have bought it soon after I met Jack,
> hoping to please him by attempting to understand Buddhism. When my son
> opened it, a piece of folded green paper fell out. It was part of a label
> for Eagle Typewriting Paper. On the back was a fragment of conversation Jack
> had jotted down in pencil. It reflected his awareness of our basic
> philosophical conflict:
>
> Somebody told me
> that W>C> Handy had
> just died- I said
> 'he was never even
> born'-'oh you,'
> she said."
Isn't this from Joyce Johnson's introduction to Desolation Angels?
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:19:34 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: the lord of the flies syndrome rears its ugly head again.
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:37 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>> the answer is j9dp' and you know that.
>
>what does this mean?
>
>
See what drugs do to you--you can't even read English anymore.
>
>> When people put others down I have a gut reaction to then put them down.
>
>i was not putting that webtv chap down, or insulting him, and i don't think
>the other were, either -- just making our point of "whats drugs?" because i
>can't make any distinctions here like that -- raisins? lsd worse than
>alcohol? birdbrain says so, aint it true that marijuana rots yer brain like
>it says on the telly? oxybiotic will make you neurotic.
>
>
>
Oh man!!!
Whay are so much more civil and down to earth and unemotional--you're
bumming my fry
I wanted to be able to insult you more
Anyhow you've convinced me that raisons and their close cousin the evil
raisonettes are much much much much much much much much more infinitely more
no comparison whatsoever dangerous than LSD
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:36:45 -0400
Reply-To: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: thank you.
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
to the people who supported me during these two days of about 200
responses calling me a large number of names...
i had heard somewhere that people get defensive about their habits...i
guess they were right...
anyway, my thanks to my supporters...
(all three of them...)
-julian
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:28:04 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: no, thank you! (with sincerity)
Comments: To: plagal@WEBTV.NET
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:36:45 -0400 Julian Ruck <plagal@WEBTV.NET> writes:
>to the people who supported me during these two days of about 200
>responses calling me a large number of names...
>i had heard somewhere that people get defensive about their habits...i
>guess they were right...
>anyway, my thanks to my supporters...
>(all three of them...)
>-julian
and to all of those who stood up in opposition to the anti-drug
stance...i thank you. we should remember that pot was legal when kerouac
was a kid and the world didn't end. people still smoke alot of pot and i
haven't seen any apocolyptic scenereos that are any more believable than
"reefer madness."
this is not to bash julian...on the contrary...i think this post got alot
of people's misconceptions cleared up. (granted, it created some new
misconceptions, but hey, we can't be right on all the time.) discourse
is always good. so what if it gets ugly. get it out on the table.
i don't think this is people getting defensive about habits. i smoke
pot....alot. i admit that, but i resent other people condemning without
understanding. i don't think this happened that much on this string.
people just wanted the chance to explain...and to have some fun.
and i'm sure you have many more than three supporters out there. it's
just that they saw the onslought of messages you received and said "no
thanks..."
thanks for your bravery in standing up to the stoned out masses.
peace...
Brian M. Kirchhoff howl
420@juno.com
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:45:20 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Drugs and Beats
Comments: To: Tellyman <Tellyman@BIGFOOT.COM>
In-Reply-To: <33E0C1AB.3C5B0F91@bigfoot.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Lets see...Jack Kerouac died from severe alchohol abuse...Neal Cassady
died, at least indirectly, from severe amphetamine/speed abuse...Allen
Ginsberg died of liver cancer, which resulted from his hepatitis, which
he probably contracted during years of drug abuse.
On the other hand, the hardest of the hardcore drug abusers among the
group (unless you want to count Herbert Huncke) was William S.
Burroughs. And he's still alive and going on what, 90?
The fact is that many many young people who came of age in post world war
II, during the start of the cold war and nuclear age, used drugs. There
was a sense of pervading doom associated with the reality of "the bomb"
and the reality of a society that hadnt yet changed with the times. It
wouldnt be fair to single out the beats and say that *they* were drug
users in ways that noone else was.
The world is better today so drug abuse is less prevalent. I certainly
dont think there's a prerogative to use drugs if you want to be a beat
writer. The "Beat" ethic is to write about experience, to write what you
know and how you've lived...it is not about writing about how others have
lived or about emulating other people.
Richard W.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:09:35 -0400
Reply-To: Robert Thomas <rthomas@CLARK.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Robert Thomas <rthomas@CLARK.NET>
Subject: ???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
i have a question...
i am stead fast against profanity (well, not that much)...are there many
beats who do not swear?
This should be a good thread.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:58:12 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: ???
Comments: To: rthomas@CLARK.NET
On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 15:09:35 -0400 Robert Thomas <rthomas@CLARK.NET>
writes:
>i have a question...
>i am stead fast against profanity (well, not that much)...are there
>many
>beats who do not swear?
>
>This should be a good thread.
>
fuck no.
(simplicity, simplicity, simplicity)
Brian M. Kirchhoff
howl 420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:24:44 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Imitate to Irritate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>i have a question...
>i am stead fast against profanity (well, not that much)...are there many
>beats who do not swear?
>
>This should be a good thread.
I'm totally against communication. Are there any Beats who didn't / don't
communicate?
I'm totally against the Beats. Are there any Beats who aren't / weren't
Beats?
I thought that Julian's question had some merit. Beat writing is still
popular and drug use is just as, if not more, popular. I know that when I
smoked my first joint the Beats and the musicians whom I admired weren't a
discouraging factor, although they weren't the reason that I tried it (all
day everyday for about four years along with several other harder drugs).
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:36:05 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Spinning on drugs
Here's a snip of an interesting interview with Tom Robbins:
(Los Angeles Times) By JOHN BALZAR
============================================
His choler builds perceptibly every minute he is in town, and now it spreads
to encompass the dismal condition of American culture.
He says he has been practicing channeling, and has been connecting with the
ol' red-baiter Joe McCarthy. "He is quite happy with American society today,
you know. He regrets only that he died before America began the war on
drugs."
These are not the days for friendly jabbering about drug use, at least in
public. But Robbins plunges in, his mind recoiling from the authoritarian
edict that there is no healthy difference between drugs and drug abuse. And
how about a misguided government that subsidizes killer-tobacco but outlaws
psychedelics? "That is chemically insane."
"We're headed for a showdown between those who love liberty and those who
crave certainty. The two are incompatible."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:12:22 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Passage for Consideration
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>From _The Western Lands_:
"Consider the One God Universe: OGU. The spirit recoils in horror from
such a deadly impasse. He is all-powerful and all-knowing. Because He can
do everything, He can do nothing, since the act of doing demands opposition.
He knows everything so there is nothing for him to learn. He can't go
anywhere, since He is already fucking everywhere, like cowshit in Calcutta.
The OGU is a pre-recorded universe of which He is the recorder. It's a
flat, thermodynamic universe, since it has no friction by definition. So He
invents friction and conflict, pain, fear, sickness, famine, war, old age
and Death.
His OGU is running down like an old clock. Takes more and more to make
fewer and fewer Energy Units of Seks, as we call it in the trade.
The Magical Universe, MU, is a universe of many gods, often in
conflict. So the paradox of an all-powerful, all-knowing God who permits
suffering, evil and death, does not arise."-WSB (from p.113)
Bring on the comments.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:25:08 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: jack sez
...beat, meaning down and out but full of intense conviction...it meant
characters of a special spirituality who didn't gang up but were solitary
Bartlebies staring out the dead wall window of our civilization. The
subterranean heroes who finally turned from the "freedom" machine of the West
and were taking drugs, digging bop, having flashes of insight, experiencing
the "derangement of the senses," talking strange, being poor and glad,
prophesying a new style for American culture, a new style (we thought)
completely free from European influences (unlike the Lost Generation), a new
incantation. The same thing was almost going on in the postwar France of
Sartre and Genet and what's more we knew about it. But as to the actual
existence of a Beat Generation, chances are it was really just an idea in our
minds.
Aftermath: The Philosophy of the Beat Generation
Esquire, March 1958
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:48:28 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: ???
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970731150610.26573B-100000@clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>i have a question...
>i am stead fast against profanity (well, not that much)...are there many
>beats who do not swear?
>
>This should be a good thread.
________________
what the fuck did you just ask? sorry, all those burned out synapses from
all them drugs.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:13:45 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Drug drag
I have written an autobiographical article on my decades of experiences with
drugs, if anyone wants to be enlightened or is just interested, one can find
my article, Reefer Madness in the Age of Apostasy Propaganda and War: The
Military Industrial Complex Becomes The Law Enforcement/Containment Industry
at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
Personally I think the article should be reprinted in the New Yorker, the New
York Times, the Detroit Free Press, Washington Post, LA Times, Rolling Stone,
Clinton's briefing papers (if it hasn't already) so that one can have good
anecdotal information on this preposterous insane precarious mental terrorism
applied in Amerika today.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:38:11 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drug drag
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:13 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I have written an autobiographical article on my decades of experiences with
>drugs, if anyone wants to be enlightened or is just interested, one can find
>my article, Reefer Madness in the Age of Apostasy Propaganda and War: The
>Military Industrial Complex Becomes The Law Enforcement/Containment Industry
>at www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
>
>Personally I think the article should be reprinted in the New Yorker, the New
>York Times, the Detroit Free Press, Washington Post, LA Times, Rolling Stone,
>Clinton's briefing papers (if it hasn't already) so that one can have good
>anecdotal information on this preposterous insane precarious mental terrorism
>applied in Amerika today.
>Charles Plymell
>
>
And on a big giant roll of toilet paper.
Good luck to all my compatriots at the beat L
Amerika is spelled with a w not a K btw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:11:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Drug drag. Get it straight, just once
"Drugs" is a word that clearly has lost its semantic value. The connotations
that have overridden its simple denotative (dictionary) meaning have been
muddled by emotive, moral, and many times, inaccurate associations. This
muddle is given a buzz by police, authority, etc. in popular culture and T.V.
Actually, the word means nothing because its value is obscured.
Most of the talk about "drugs" turns emotional, and (oddly) moral. These are
not the voices of reason. The categories of the word are too many and the
definition can never be concretized to have a comtemporary semantic value.
The meaning of the word isn't changing coherently.
As for example the word, "broadcast" was entered in older dictionaries with
its first meaning to spread or plant seeds (I'm guessing). After the fellows
in N.Y. & N.J. tinkered with their transmitters (not that long ago) and gave
birth to radio the metaphor, "broadcasting" changed in its first entry
meaning.
To speak of drugs now in professional language would need one or several
adjectives to make the noun concrete. This dilution of the word was the
problem with the first frazzled thread of this list discussion. A more
professional language was needed to introduce a widely popular meaningless
word.
As to those who have had bad problems "with drugs," I will say drugs are
nothing but chemical compositions, much like you. The "problem" or problems
that seem to involve a chemical agent, then do not rest with the chemical,
but rather, the person. "When the archer misses the bull's eye, she turns and
looks for the problem in herself" to paraphrase Confucius.
As to Burroughs' dress. He is always appropriate. Probably one of the better
dressed gentlemen of the century. As to his knowledge of "drugs," he is
accurate, broad, and has a wealth of anecdotal and empirical evidence to back
him up.
When we don't listen to knowledgeable people about an age-old topic, still
causing a problem at this late millenium, we resort to ignorance, fear,
misinformation, disinformation (propoganda). We don't have to look far to
find other thinkers and writers and public figures in agreement on what to
do about the problem. William F. Buckley, Gore Vidal, Mayor Smokes
(Baltimore) and according to an NBC poll a while back...80 percent of the
country. So anyone with irrational, moral, fears about the "problem", should
crawl out of the cave. No...I'm sure cave men were smarter. The agendas of
persons, who in this age of information, retain these irrational notions are
either ignorant, or very smart and powerful and have their own agenda. Please
spare me personal accounts of a person problem.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:24:09 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Michael Jeter
Comments: To: Jim Woodside <woodside@maestro.mitre.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:07 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> Jeter burst into tears when he won an emmy. It caught me so
>> by surprise that I broke into tears myself. So much for the cool
>> medium. Its only cool if the people on it, remain cool. Which,
>> thank god, with the boredom of it all, they generally do.
>>
>> Mike Rice
>
>Mike,
>
>I've been reading this thread, and I can't for the life of me figure out
>who Michael Jeter is? What did he win an emmy for? What roles has he
>played on TV/Movies? Thanks.
>
>Jim
>
>
It was a Tony. And it was for Grand Hotel, the broadway musical. I
misspoke when I said it was an emmy. The week following the tony
awards, Peter Jennings made jeter the person of the week. I am sure
he was as moved by jeter's outburst as I was. In my opinion, Jeter,
who had a role in the film Hair, and is probably queer, is a star because
he cried on the Tonys. I have never forgotten him because he moved myself,
Peter Jennings and God knows who else.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:50:37 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drug drag. Get it straight, just once
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:11 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
...I'm sure cave men were smarter. The agendas of
>persons, who in this age of information, retain these irrational notions are
>either ignorant, or very smart and powerful and have their own agenda.
And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they.
>Charles Plymell
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:22:22 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: For DC: Dharma/ Desolation/ Dualities
Comments: To: SSASN@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
> Now then, am I to understand that you actually knew Jack Kerouac
> yourself?
No, I'm sorry to say. Perhaps I had some misplaced quotation marks; the
passage you referred to was written by Joyce Johnson in the introduction
to Desolation Angels. I am 43, also too young to have known Jack Kerouac
personally. I enjoyed your thoughts about Dharma Bums and Desolation
Angels and will have some things to post about DA soon.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:51:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: western lands/ no smoking
Comments: To: kh14586@acs.appstate.edu
In a message dated 97-07-31 21:06:18 EDT, you write:
<< nicotine >>
He kicked the Players cigarettes. I tried to bum one off him.
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 22:59:19 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Drugs and Beats
Comments: To: rwallner@capaccess.org
In a message dated 97-07-31 21:13:45 EDT, you write:
<< .Allen
Ginsberg died of liver cancer, which resulted from his hepatitis, which
he probably contracted during years of drug abuse. >>
i wouldn't classify Allen as a drug abuser. He was alwys health concious.
Wrote me a 3pg letter prescribing a healthy deit.
Aslo, I don't know is statistics would bear out you claim as "less
prevailant" There has been a shift in demogrphics and usage, but even then,
they can't even get the population census accurate. How would they begin to
provide counts of usage? Besides, the people with the clipboards are probably
stoned.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:00:47 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Drug drag. Get it straight, just once
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>
In a message dated 97-07-31 21:52:39 EDT, you write:
<<
And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they. >>
Depends on who is after ya.
C Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 23:32:20 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For DC: Dharma/ Desolation/ Dualities....Duh!
Diane:
I'm very sorry and embarrassed. I must read more carefully. My edition of
DA doesn't have the Joyce Johnson introduction, and I obviously didn't see
where the quote ended and you resumed. I've received several other posts
correcting me on this matter today, (though nothing compared with the
avalanche of controversy in reaction to Julian Ruck's perfectly reasonable
inquiry today) and a few who aren't sure and will be disappointed that I
mistook you for JJ! Disregard that whole gushy last part, and I hope the
rest contributes to the ongoing dialogue, I still feel blurred myself by the
very dualities we are dissecting, I just didn't whine as much about it this
time.
Giddy no more,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:18:24 -0500
Reply-To: jefflaura <imcold@EAGLE.PTIALASKA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jefflaura <imcold@EAGLE.PTIALASKA.NET>
Subject: the drug question
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
How much would Jack and his generation have had to write about
without, "Tea", Thunder Bird, ect. ect. Good or bad or both the importance
of substance use and or abuse was the push that got the rock rolling.
Jeff Hickok
>From the Northwest corner of Hell ie ...Kotzebue, Alaska
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:29:14 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: For DC: Dharma/ Desolation/ Dualities
Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
> > Now then, am I to understand that you actually knew Jack Kerouac
> > yourself?
>
> No, I'm sorry to say. Perhaps I had some misplaced quotation marks;
> the
> passage you referred to was written by Joyce Johnson in the
> introduction
> to Desolation Angels. I am 43, also too young to have known Jack
> Kerouac
> personally. I enjoyed your thoughts about Dharma Bums and Desolation
> Angels and will have some things to post about DA soon.
> DC
DC:
You would have been 16 when Jack died, so you could have known him, even
if he would have gotten arrested for knowing you too well. ;-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:52:38 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Michael Jeter
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970731162131.271f2aa4@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> >I've been reading this thread, and I can't for the life of me figure out
> >who Michael Jeter is? What did he win an emmy for? What roles has he
> >played on TV/Movies? Thanks.
Also Burt Reynolds' sidekick on CBS's Evening Shade.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:23:01 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: the drug question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jefflaura wrote:
>
> How much would Jack and his generation have had to write about
> without, "Tea", Thunder Bird, ect. ect. Good or bad or both the importance
> of substance use and or abuse was the push that got the rock rolling.
>
> Jeff Hickok
> >From the Northwest corner of Hell ie ...Kotzebue, Alaska
In Hanover New Hampshire this would be that the Rolling Rock got the
rock rolling.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:02:01 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Paranioa of cartels
Comments: To: gallaher@hsc.usc.edu
In a message dated 97-08-01 01:13:35 EDT, you write:
<< And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they.
>>
If one has paraniod tendencies, one might reflect on how big the
pharmacuticals are today. Bigger than the oil companies of yesteryear that
elected and (snuffed?) presidents. The biggest cartels can always control
thought. They just don't want anyone cutting into their market. It's the
Amerikan way, simple as that!
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:46:02 EDT
Reply-To: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joe <100106.1102@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Arthur Lee
Are there any links between Arthur Lee (Love) & any of
the Beat's?
Thanks for your time
Joe
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:10:46 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: the lord of the flies syndrome rears its ugly head again.
Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
> <snip>
> then whoever it was who began this as "being totally against all
> drugs"
> should look for a young republican literature list (or is THAT an
> oxymoron?)
> mc
> feeling a bit grumbly meself this morning..
MC:
I would say that Republican sensibility is an oxymoron. I am not sure
if Republican Literature exists.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:50:41 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Passage for Consideration
In-Reply-To: <199707312112.OAA16125@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:12 PM -0700 7/31/97, James William Marshall wrote:
> >From _The Western Lands_:
>
> "Consider the One God Universe: OGU. The spirit recoils in horror from
> such a deadly impasse. He is all-powerful and all-knowing. Because He can
> do everything, He can do nothing, since the act of doing demands opposition.
> He knows everything so there is nothing for him to learn. He can't go
> anywhere, since He is already fucking everywhere, like cowshit in Calcutta.
> The OGU is a pre-recorded universe of which He is the recorder. It's a
> flat, thermodynamic universe, since it has no friction by definition. So He
> invents friction and conflict, pain, fear, sickness, famine, war, old age
> and Death.
> His OGU is running down like an old clock. Takes more and more to make
> fewer and fewer Energy Units of Seks, as we call it in the trade.
> The Magical Universe, MU, is a universe of many gods, often in
> conflict. So the paradox of an all-powerful, all-knowing God who permits
> suffering, evil and death, does not arise."-WSB (from p.113)
>
> Bring on the comments.
the noise on my radio dial
prevents me from astonishing
flat hamburgers instead of round
gin and tonics for fathers and soldiers
hallelujah and mortar shells and fireworks
there are men in my barn singing
raising their hands and motioning
clasping their hands and feeling
fucking centered fucking centered
>
> James M.
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/
step aside, and let the man go thru
----> let the man go thru
super bon-bon (soul coughing)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:18:07 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drug drag. Get it straight, just once
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:00 PM 7/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-31 21:52:39 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they. >>
>
>Depends on who is after ya.
>C Plymell
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:21:06 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paranioa of cartels
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:02 AM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-01 01:13:35 EDT, you write:
>
><< And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they.
> >>
>If one has paraniod tendencies, one might reflect on how big the
>pharmacuticals are today. Bigger than the oil companies of yesteryear that
>elected and (snuffed?) presidents. The biggest cartels can always control
>thought.
Well...at least yours
They just don't want anyone cutting into their market. It's the
>Amerikan way, simple as that!
>C. Plymell
>
Come now don't be so coy.
We know your role and the beat-l mission.
We can't be fooled.
You connect the dots you pick up the pieces
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:25:48 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: the drug question
Comments: To: jefflaura <imcold@EAGLE.PTIALASKA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:18 PM 7/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
>How much would Jack and his generation have had to write about
>without, "Tea", Thunder Bird, ect. ect. Good or bad or both the importance
>of substance use and or abuse was the push that got the rock rolling.
>
>Jeff Hickok
>>From the Northwest corner of Hell ie ...Kotzebue, Alaska
>
>
This is a good question. I've wondered about this.
What if kerouac hadn't broken his leg and ended up playing 4 years on the
football team and he never met the people he did. never started with the
benny etc....
What would he have written?
You can ask similar questions about ginsy and burroughs.
I think each of them would have been successful in whatever realm.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 11:04:29 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: the drug question
Comments: To: race@MIDUSA.NET
On Fri, 1 Aug 1997 00:23:01 -0500 RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET> writes:
>jefflaura wrote:
>>
>> How much would Jack and his generation have had to write about
>> without, "Tea", Thunder Bird, ect. ect. Good or bad or both the
importance
>> of substance use and or abuse was the push that got the rock rolling.
>>
>> Jeff Hickok
>> >From the Northwest corner of Hell ie ...Kotzebue, Alaska
>In Hanover New Hampshire this would be that the Rolling Rock got the
>rock rolling.
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
Wouldn't it be Latrobe, PA?
Or is it easier to get rocked on Rolling Rock to get the rock rolling in
Hanover?
Just a question.
Brian M. Kirchhoff
howl 420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:40:36 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Drug drag. Get it straight, just once
Comments: To: gallaher@hsc.usc.edu
In a message dated 97-08-01 01:13:35 EDT, you write:
<< >either ignorant, or very smart and powerful and have their own agenda.
And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they >>
I think an ojective study of "the problem" would point to at least an
unspoken agenda. Why is there this absurd "war" when those I named: William
F. Buckley, Smoke, Vidal agree with Burroughs and a majority of Americans tha
drugs should be legal and that the war clearly wrongheaded. You have to make
a few rhetorical inferences like. Why is the stock market so high. Good for
business, etc. Why does the "war dope machine" want to keep people in
ignorance" 'why was there a shift to Blacks to cheap dope fill up the
prisons....' On and on. Reading Chomsky's books would help you see the big
picture. I sat with Ginsberg while he clipped files when this country was
pedding dope in Viet Nam, etc. I think these are reasonable inferences, given
the nature of what our govt. has done in the past. It's no stretch. Just a
blast of reality.
C.Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 05:46:28 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Imitate to Irritate
In-Reply-To: <199707312024.NAA29695@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 1:24 PM -0700 7/31/97, James William Marshall wrote:
> >i have a question...
> >i am stead fast against profanity (well, not that much)...are there many
> >beats who do not swear?
> >
> >This should be a good thread.
>
> I'm totally against communication. Are there any Beats who didn't / don't
> communicate?
> I'm totally against the Beats. Are there any Beats who aren't / weren't
> Beats?
How about beats that don't wear all black clothing. There has to be a few
of those around to pin up to the fall, line up like wanna be faggots and
pepper them with questions about marilyn monroe's shoe size. ask if their
mothers' loved em, if their lovers have left em enough times, if the tax
man really got what he deserved. Ask em that and tell em Jose sent ya.
that's what I fuckin want to know.
that and what happened to the crate of Taco Bell tacos I had stored in the
fridge. Man, I had half a pound there and some jerk came and ate a few.
Fuckin beats did it man, the fuckin beats.
that's whatIwanna know
that's what I wanna know
> James M.
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 12:30:41 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: definition of beat
In a message dated 97-07-31 20:17:47 EDT, mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET (Mike Rice)
writes:
<< I think its high time we had a definition of "Beat!" >>
Do you mean a definition of "Beat" or "beat"?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:50:13 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Nonsense
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 11:02 AM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 97-08-01 01:13:35 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><< And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they.
> > >>
> >If one has paraniod tendencies, one might reflect on how big the
> >pharmacuticals are today. Bigger than the oil companies of yesteryear that
> >elected and (snuffed?) presidents. The biggest cartels can always control
> >thought.
>
> Well...at least yours
>
> They just don't want anyone cutting into their market. It's the
> >Amerikan way, simple as that!
> >C. Plymell
> >
>
> Come now don't be so coy.
>
> We know your role and the beat-l mission.
>
> We can't be fooled.
>
> You connect the dots you pick up the pieces
Timothy Tim-Tim:
Once again I've read many of your messages on this thread and i have
failed to make any sense from you.
I understand that this is obviously a result of the pharmacological
choices of myself and my various physicians over the decades that have
so warped my abilities at comprehension that i cannot fathom the essence
of your synaptic firings.
Could you please attempt to translate at least one of your messages into
something that makes some sense for those of us who don't understand
your babbling.
I -- at least -- would appreciate it.
honestly,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. On another thread, i have decided after numerous backchannels that
perhaps Dr. Sax was too predictable. I now wish to be Moloch.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:24:22 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fools
In a message dated 97-08-01 12:20:24 EDT, you write:
<< Come now don't be so coy.
We know your role and the beat-l mission.
We can't be fooled.
You connect the dots you pick up the pieces
>>
I don't have any idea what you mean. Don't bother me.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:10:18 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nonsense
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Missive Re Big Op
Dateline 009^62
Agent moc
Must be carefull
Moose and Squirrel may be on to mission as well as certain beat-l members
They can not know our role in working for CATREL to keep ig of public at large
Stop
That is all
Agent non
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:24:32 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fools
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:24 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-01 12:20:24 EDT, you write:
>
><< Come now don't be so coy.
>
> We know your role and the beat-l mission.
>
> We can't be fooled.
>
> You connect the dots you pick up the pieces
>
> >>
>I don't have any idea what you mean. Don't bother me.
>Charles Plymell
>
>
Charles it's called a joke.
Humor
I used to listen to Mabe Russell.
Now though I don't really buy the worldview.
I think people are out for themselves and the conspiracy of the cartels is
simply greed.
The conspiracy is human nature in all it's manifestations.
I remember back in the day it was all "smoke pot-- make it easier for them
to control you".
The idea was idea was of course who would buy all this lousy music if the
listeners weren't stoned out of their gourd.
So there was conspiracy as it were to get foks to smoke dope to make money
for record companies.
There is always something like this. One side has their conspiracy and the
other side has theirs and sometimes they mix together and form a nice
biological brown.
This doesn't mean I don't believe many events took place like smuggling
heroin in body bags or guns for drugs or other things.
I just don't buy the wordview. I see these things as realpolitic.
I don't think there is a "they" who want to keep the masses ignorent for
this or that
It is a big melange and it all rams into each other and spins off and is
chaotic and ordered and works out.
We can connect the dots how we want. I prefer the most straightforward
manner rather than filtering it through a lens of partisanship or structured
pardigms (ie conspiracy type thinking).
Sorry to be somewhat serious I have been "playing around" as someone else
put it and it is fun.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:25:50 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Paranioa of cartels
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 11:02 AM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 97-08-01 01:13:35 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><< And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they.
> > >>
> >If one has paraniod tendencies, one might reflect on how big the
> >pharmacuticals are today. Bigger than the oil companies of yesteryear
> that
> >elected and (snuffed?) presidents. The biggest cartels can always
> control
> >thought.
>
> Well...at least yours
>
> They just don't want anyone cutting into their market. It's the
> >Amerikan way, simple as that!
> >C. Plymell
> >
>
> Come now don't be so coy.
>
> We know your role and the beat-l mission.
>
> We can't be fooled.
>
> You connect the dots you pick up the pieces
What is this supposed to mean? Is it supposed to be "funny" or to make
sense? I hope that usc.edu is the University of Southern California,
and not University of South Carolina.
"And if I really say it,
The radio won't play it,
And do I have to lay it
Between the lines."
Don't go jerking Charles around for no reason.
Thank you and peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:32:55 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Moloch and David R
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
David:
You are here so you are already part of Moloch. Are you going to evolve
from there? :-)
I know who you are, go big green machine. Be back in 2001, eh? Is that
cryptic enough for you? ;-)
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 15:47:13 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paranioa of cartels
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:25 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>> At 11:02 AM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> >In a message dated 97-08-01 01:13:35 EDT, you write:
>> >
>> ><< And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they.
>> > >>
>> >If one has paraniod tendencies, one might reflect on how big the
>> >pharmacuticals are today. Bigger than the oil companies of yesteryear
>> that
>> >elected and (snuffed?) presidents. The biggest cartels can always
>> control
>> >thought.
>>
>> Well...at least yours
>>
>> They just don't want anyone cutting into their market. It's the
>> >Amerikan way, simple as that!
>> >C. Plymell
>> >
>>
>> Come now don't be so coy.
>>
>> We know your role and the beat-l mission.
>>
>> We can't be fooled.
>>
>> You connect the dots you pick up the pieces
>
>What is this supposed to mean? Is it supposed to be "funny" or to make
>sense? I hope that usc.edu is the University of Southern California,
>and not University of South Carolina.
>
>"And if I really say it,
>The radio won't play it,
>And do I have to lay it
>Between the lines."
>
>Don't go jerking Charles around for no reason.
>
>Thank you and peace,
>--
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
>
Charles is a big boy I would think.
And it is supposed to be funny.
I don't see how "The Cartel" differs from much from the Church Lady's Satan.
Now whoo could it be...??? THE CARTEL L L L L (echo and reverb on the voice)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 19:35:11 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fools
Comments: To: gallaher@hsc.usc.edu
In a message dated 97-08-01 18:24:42 EDT, you write:
<< Sorry to be somewhat serious I have been "playing around" as someone else
put it and it is fun.
>>
I'll meet you at high noon; Maybe we can IRON this out.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:12:17 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
><< Sorry to be somewhat serious I have been "playing around" as someone else
> put it and it is fun.
> >>
>I'll meet you at high noon; Maybe we can IRON this out.
>C. Plymell
>
Now we're talking. I gotta know where this is going down. It can be the
alt-Beat party. Charles, if you can, invite Burroughs, he can be your
second. I doubt that you'll need one but it'd be cool to have him around.
If he gets bored, he can shoot me, I wouldn't mind.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:20:49 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Turds
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@hsc.usc.edu>
In a message dated 97-08-01 18:26:08 EDT, you write:
<< I don't think there is a "they" who want to keep the masses ignorent for
this or that
It is a big melange and it all rams into each other and spins off and is
chaotic and ordered and works out.
We can connect the dots how we want. I prefer the most straightforward
manner rather than filtering it through a lens of partisanship or structured
pardigms (ie conspiracy type thinking).
Sorry to be somewhat serious I have been "playing around" as someone else
put it and it is fun.
>>
I didn't think the vague pronoun reference "they" needed to be qualified for
a group that seems to share similair experiences and ideologies. One of the
common denominators of the beat experience was that most of them, except
prehaps for Snyder and McClure were very willing to take great risks in their
writing and their Ethos, which helped by providing a seminal comaraderie to
other writers who put themselves on the line. In that respect, it made me
more comfortable knowing that there was someone else around willing to state
their feelings, even if those feelings put them at some risk. I shared that
commonality with the beats.
I also feel that given the records of governments, that a healthy distrust of
systems should be taught in civics classes. This was one of the real lessons
in my decades of growth and was also a common demoninator for many. You may
see it at paranoia or "connecting the dots''. I will give you that. "They"
may be any dot. I knew that many years ago when I used to stretch my wig. But
it is interesting that the post-modern view of chaos and randomness breeds
smaller connections, especially of mental paranoias. "They" may be a large
dot, but they ain't random. They are carefully engineered and place their
players well. They are any system, as big or little dots as you want. Your
paradigm operates the same.
My personal view of the Drug War was written as a serious piece, mainly for
those who have been brutalized by the system. I sent it to FAMM, and it has
been published in a few small publications. One member of the list writes me
that he makes everyone visiting him read it before they can leave. The
protocol among writers is that the more you have laid your soul bare, the
more you can jump in and state your feelings. The protocol of e-mail, which I
admit I sometimes take for granted is that you write-in an emotion such as
<smile>.
Your attempt at "humour" revealed neither of these atttributes. My published
piece was purposeful and serious, and I still think it should have been
brought to a larger audience. "They" have exerted their control over the
media. too? If you are one who cannot see the language control in the NYTimes
NewMoralitySpeak, then you will have to hunt for reality in the subculture
press, in case you didn't know that it still exists. When you said "bring
your tiolet paper" in reference to my writing, I didn't laugh. Mainly because
toilet paper cannot wipe away turds like you! HAR HAR
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:55:40 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fools
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:35 PM 8/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-01 18:24:42 EDT, you write:
>
><< Sorry to be somewhat serious I have been "playing around" as someone else
> put it and it is fun.
> >>
>I'll meet you at high noon; Maybe we can IRON this out.
>C. Plymell
>
>
Yessir partner, yee-haw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 18:57:04 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:12 PM 8/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>><< Sorry to be somewhat serious I have been "playing around" as someone else
>> put it and it is fun.
>> >>
>>I'll meet you at high noon; Maybe we can IRON this out.
>>C. Plymell
>>
> Now we're talking. I gotta know where this is going down. It can be the
>alt-Beat party. Charles, if you can, invite Burroughs, he can be your
>second. I doubt that you'll need one but it'd be cool to have him around.
>If he gets bored, he can shoot me, I wouldn't mind.
>
> James M.
>
>
You need to put a glass or an apple on your head first.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 20:10:40 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Paranioa of cartels
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles,
You are pointing to something important here. Just watch how eagerly
the pharmecutical industry acts to snuff any chemical that might offer
fun, help you feel better or help you sleep (if it can't be patented so
it can be sold at huge profits.) Examples would be l-tryptophan and
right now the heat on GHB, soon to be listed as a scheduled drug in
states near us all because the FDA couldnt make it's case in federal
courts so they have now begun a state by state attempt to sell this
begnign chemical as a date rape drug, coma inducer, etc.
James Stauffer
James Stauffer
> << And drugs never ever make anyone paranoid do they.
> >>
> If one has paraniod tendencies, one might reflect on how big the
> pharmacuticals are today. . . The biggest cartels can always control
> thought. They just don't want anyone cutting into their market. It's the
> Amerikan way, simple as that!
> C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 22:01:06 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: the drug question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You can ask similar questions about ginsy and burroughs.
I think each of them would have been successful in whatever realm.
patricia writes
i can't tell who wrote this but i think that some events such as
someone such as ag and wsb and jk meeting and forming an union is
formative, perhaps success wouldn't be achieved in whatever realm,
success is often a moment of chance, a moment where an edge of a
headlight is seen and you veer and you live, perhaps not. success is
not only who your are and application but life is such sheer luck that
the impact of ag and jk on wsb should be explored. i wish i could have
heard brian gyson speak because quite obviously he has had enormous
inpact on wsb.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:59:01 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: neil cassady and video.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hey folks,
i don't know if anyone is aware of the following but this month
an independent film supposedly about Neil Cassady is coming out. I think
the title has something to do with "the second time i tried suicide" but
i'm not too sure. If anyone knows please clear this up.
has anyone ever written to any of the Beats? Two years ago i
wrote to Burroughs and within two weeks he responded with a hand-written
card displaying one of his art projects on the cover. I don't want to
post his address on here but if anyone is interested please let me know.
jason
"The birds are really spies for the trees."- gregory corso.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:23:41 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
Comments: To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:18 PM 8/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>tim , you seem to just type anything that comes into your head. it is
>boring. try reading some of the literature under discuusion, thinking
>about them and then posting your thoughts, feelings or ideas about them.
>you don't have to be interesting but i would appreciate something other
>than silly stuff.
>p
>
>
Here here,
I have felt this way so many times.
All my silly responses are or were initated in response to silly posts.
I don't know why I have done this the past two days or two. Yesterdayt
morning I didn't go to work and had time to respond to things.
I decided to have fun and also to respond in kind.
I am always surprised that people who can dish it out cannot take it (and I
am not referring to anyone in particular)
I've been on this list for about as long as it began and usually I don't say
much and when I do it is a few paragraphs.
So many times I may have written something about the writings or influences
and received no response at all.
That happens though.
Who am I quoting : "I can goof if I want"
[hint concerns literature recently being discussed--and a nice discussion
one of the best I read here in years on the beat-l. I am referring to the
VoC project and whomever contributed. It was a good job]
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 21:28:21 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Turds
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Re this metamorphed subject
note my term from earlier post-- "a biological brown" as in it all turns into a
Oh yes :)
;)
:-{)>
=|:-})>
(that last one in Allen Ginsberg in his Uncle Sam hat)
It is a photograph
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 00:50:43 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: ED DORN
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've just recieved word from Tom Clark and Michael Price, that Ed
Dorn has been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and this is terminal.
He has perhaps three or four months--with luck six months to live.
Another blow for Naropa and poetics. Michael Price has put together
a special poetry issue with Ed's work and-- perhaps; his last inter-
view in an edition of 500 copies. If anyone from the list would like
to obtain a copy; they can be ordered postage/paid for $6.00 from:
New College of California
C/O Michael Price
766 Valencia Street
San Francisco, CA 94110
If you decide to order, make checks out to Michael Price.
Peace,
Richard Houff
Pariah Press
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 23:22:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
Comments: To: YageCola@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:06 AM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>gallaher...
>
>"goof" - standard kerouac vocabulary as in
>
>"meaningless goof, though somewhat mysterious, as though he was a saint in
>disguise"
>
>just a guess.
>
>I don't know how this works yet, just joined the list...
>
Cool.
Close yet no cigar. But very close. Remember the whole phrase is "I can
goof if I want to"
To hear your sentence read by kerouac webitonover to
http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
ayhuascaloha dude
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 09:19:43 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: drugs and society
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On the track and field list, there is a great debate about drugs, growth
hormones, and the recent decision to reduce the drug ban from 4 to 2
years. These drugs are used to enhance the competivness of the athlete.
But it seems to me, that no one really gets upset about them.
If we are going to address a problem, the problem cannot be defined in
terms of a drug. That is because no drug can force itself upon a human
against the human's will. Thus the argument that drugs and chemicals
should not be illegal has great appeal to me. Not because I want to be
able to take drugs, but because I do not think we should make people
into criminals because they choose to take a drug.
In other words, I agree with the "Republican" platform that the
government should not be interfering in people's lifes. The problem is,
that that platform is really only applied to business. That is don't
regulate business, let them pollute, destroy wetlands, log the last of
the virgin timber, pollute the air, etc. When it comes to personal
freedoms, they want to make you be just like them. No abortion, no
divorce (ooops, I guess those family values aren't so strong after
all!), and no drugs that we don't take (alcohol, nicotine, caffine,
etc.) or that scare me because I don't take them.
If you truly believe that one should not take drugs, then you should be
fighting against government subsidies of tobacco. Have those of you who
espouse you opposition to drugs written your congressman and begun an
active campaign against tobacco subsidies and ads. What about beer ads?
Are you doing anything about A/B that pusher?
Or have you addressed the primary question, what is the real problem?
If we accept your position that drugs are bad, and admit that marijuana
does not grow, dry, roll and smoke itself into your system, then what is
the REAL problem. People choosing to use drugs for entertainment,
relief from stress, fun, escape, etc. But it is a choice. So the
question is if it is preferable not to use drugs, why do people choose
to do so? And can anything be done to provide them with a viable
choice.
So, are you in the ghetto tonight "helping" the crack heads? Are you
against drugs? If so, what are you doing about alcohol and tobacco?
How much do you spend of your tax dollars to subsidize those industries
and the carnage they have caused?
Have you been brainwashed by anti-drug ads that steer you away from the
real issues? Do you think that the CIA did NOT sell crack to finance
the contras? Have you learned to think for yourself?
And to me, if you cannot think for yourself, what do you care whether
beats take drugs, or Jesse Helms is one of the world's biggest pushers
of nicotine? If you ain't gonna do nothing about Jesse, then don't
bring your "anti-drug" bs around to my neighborhood because you are not
dealing with reality.
Sorry to bring this up, but I have been unable to address the thread
earlier and the hypocracy of it all gripes my ass, not to mention the
sadness that crack, tobacco, and alcohol has helped accentuate in our
society. But I fail to see any emphirical evidence that marijuana has
caused anywhere near the problems that tobacco, caffine, and alcohol
have.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:46:19 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Ghetto tonight
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>
> So, are you in the ghetto tonight "helping" the crack heads?
i've spent nights in quasi-ghettos. many a scream from bathroom to come
help someone out of a seizure. many a yell to come be the voice of
reason between folks on bad trips stimulated (but not created) by
various intoxicants. a yell my son has a gun and is angry at his
girlfriend what can we do. First be calm. The neighbors notion of
easter morning is chasing his young daughter and wife around intending
violence. Let them hide behind us and stand firm.
Leary was correct that in so many ways the world or at least our
society is on a bad trip and that the psychedelic veterans with
experience in smoothing out such things have an ability in the
non-hallucinatory world to help talk folks down from the conflicts. But
it is no easy task - and for my part i can say that such attempts may be
dismal failures, and may in themselves be disabling.
i don't know that there is an easy answer to any of these questions.
But, it is not the chemicals themselves that are the roots of these
circumstances (whether one finds them, tragic, dramatic, comic or some
other form). The chemicals may bring underlying roots to light rather
than letting them simmer - but it seems that the just let problems
simmer until they go away view of life in this society is one that
hopefully can be discarded sometime between now and 2001.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:05:49 -0400
Reply-To: SLPrdise@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MiKe KaNe <SLPrdise@AOL.COM>
Subject: the real story behind "beat"
I for one have exclusive and previously untold knowledge that :::whisper:::
kerouac did not name coin the term beat to describe his generation as
run-down or even to proclaim them beatific. the "root" of the term in fact
comes from a red sweet vegetable..kerouac had a fondness for them and hence
coined the term. he purposely misspelled the term so that he wouldn't look
quite so unhip. i have proof of this because i have transcripts from a 1962
senate hearing in which jack lobbied for beet (beat) farmers to receive a
government stipend to keep the beet industry in this country thriving. it is
the Amerikan way.
Lovely.
Michael Joseph Kane.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:10:55 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Last Time I Committed Suicide
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I know most everyone is sick of hearing of this movie, but I'd like to
drop a word to everyone about the soundtrack which I saw in the local
music shop today. Looks really great if you're a jazz fan and want a
great compilation of music from era...Mingus, Parker, Monk, etc. Really
great stuff. Its good that something worthwhile can be salvaged from a
rather dismal production such as this.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:16:56 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:56 AM 8/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>well, i stayed out of this one... i think it's time to say, in the immortal
>words of Lou Reed...
>
>"Stick a fork in their ass and turn 'em over. They're done."
That's not what Lou reed wrote
Lew Read wrote "i wished I hadda been able to write a sung as gooda 'I'm a
little airplane' ever"
It's on tape stored in a microchip in AW's tooth.
Anyhow the Q still stands:
What book is "I can goof if I want to" a quote from.
First person to answer gets the autographed first edition of the TP roll of
Last of the Mohicans signed by the Author himself
(Or a certain Actor Alda playing said author)
Didn't anybody get that dudes kewl handle (yagecola) Now T quiz # two
for an all expenses paid trip to inspect the sites where dogs have urinated
to mark their territory
What is ayahuasca?
>
>ciao,
>sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Timothy K. Gallaher
>Sent: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:22 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
>
>At 01:06 AM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>gallaher...
>>
>>"goof" - standard kerouac vocabulary as in
>>
>>"meaningless goof, though somewhat mysterious, as though he was a saint in
>>disguise"
>>
>>just a guess.
>>
>>I don't know how this works yet, just joined the list...
>>
>
>Cool.
>
>Close yet no cigar. But very close. Remember the whole phrase is "I can
>goof if I want to"
>
>To hear your sentence read by kerouac webitonover to
>
>http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
>
>
>ayhuascaloha dude
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:19:58 -0400
Reply-To: Chimera@WEBTV.NET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Dark Cipher
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Beauty is so random in its gifts
A knife hidden among toys
Using a joint like a ouija board
"Hey kids-is anybody out there?"
Somewhere
Bogart is sharing a smoke with Bergman
Rex Harrison and Richard Burton
Are trading favorite sonnets
At a blue-light pub
James Dean gets the kinks out of the Engine so he can pick up Natalie
Wood
Her warm smile
The smell of the sea in her hair
Marilyn lying between Jack and Bobby
Stroking them both to sleep
Gently running a soothing tongue
Around the jagged edges ot their
Bullet wounds
Chimera '93
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 12:19:06 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Turds
Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com
that was a damned good post. liked the turds comment on the end.
THAT was a JOKE.
so now youu have me interested. i would really like to read your
article, but your instructions for finding it were, well, vague to say
the least. (published in some small publications if i recall.) can you
let me know where to get it form. if it's hard to find now, could you
send me a copy. i'll even pay postage. :-)
reading naked lunch right now so the big anti-drug establishment image is
looming in my head. i have burroughs coming out of my ears. need more
fodder.
thanks. peace.
Brian M. Kirchhoff
howl 420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:21:50 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Last Time I Committed Suicide
Comments: To: Alex Howard <kh14586@acs.appstate.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:10 PM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I know most everyone is sick of hearing of this movie, but I'd like to
>drop a word to everyone about the soundtrack which I saw in the local
>music shop today. Looks really great if you're a jazz fan and want a
>great compilation of music from era...Mingus, Parker, Monk, etc. Really
>great stuff. Its good that something worthwhile can be salvaged from a
>rather dismal production such as this.
>
>------------------
>Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
>kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
You know, I've never seen a good film about the beats. Heartbeat
with Nick Nolte wasn't very good, either. What is the latest on
Coppola's production of On The Road? Did it ever get made, and,
if so, when will it be released?
Mike Rice
mrice@centuryinter.net
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:24:53 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
Tim - Lou Reed did write that... song title is "The Last Great American Whale
"- lost the tape or i'd send you a wave of it.
ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Timothy K. Gallaher
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 1997 11:16 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
At 07:56 AM 8/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>well, i stayed out of this one... i think it's time to say, in the immortal
>words of Lou Reed...
>
>"Stick a fork in their ass and turn 'em over. They're done."
That's not what Lou reed wrote
Lew Read wrote "i wished I hadda been able to write a sung as gooda 'I'm a
little airplane' ever"
It's on tape stored in a microchip in AW's tooth.
Anyhow the Q still stands:
What book is "I can goof if I want to" a quote from.
First person to answer gets the autographed first edition of the TP roll of
Last of the Mohicans signed by the Author himself
(Or a certain Actor Alda playing said author)
Didn't anybody get that dudes kewl handle (yagecola) Now T quiz # two
for an all expenses paid trip to inspect the sites where dogs have urinated
to mark their territory
What is ayahuasca?
>
>ciao,
>sherri
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Timothy K. Gallaher
>Sent: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:22 PM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
>
>At 01:06 AM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>gallaher...
>>
>>"goof" - standard kerouac vocabulary as in
>>
>>"meaningless goof, though somewhat mysterious, as though he was a saint in
>>disguise"
>>
>>just a guess.
>>
>>I don't know how this works yet, just joined the list...
>>
>
>Cool.
>
>Close yet no cigar. But very close. Remember the whole phrase is "I can
>goof if I want to"
>
>To hear your sentence read by kerouac webitonover to
>
>http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
>
>
>ayhuascaloha dude
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:37:12 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Brian Kirchhoff: Don't be discouraged
Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com
Brian:
I can understand your frustration trying to follow THE TICKET THAT EXPLODED.
This is one product of a creative phase that immediately followed NAKED
LUNCH, and occupied WSB during most of the decade of the 1960's, in which he
was dedicated to the cutup method, developed by himself and Brion Gysin.
Conceptually, it's a fascinating and thought-provoking idea- Writing was 50
years behind painting, as BG pointed out, and the techniques of collage and
other methods that were well-established in the visual arts were overdue to
be applied to writing. During the late-1950's Beat Hotel period in Paris,
right in the wake of the first publication of NL, BG had been cutting some
items below which were newspapers, he happened to notice the accidental
under-results and was very amused at the juxtapositions- he called it a
"happy accident". WSB picked up on this discovery and spent the next decade
applying it to his writing. THE SOFT MACHINE, NOVA EXPRESS and THE TICKET
THAT EXPLODED were culled from the same "word hoard" of notes, routines and
anecdotes from which NL was "extracted", as WSB put it. The text has been
quartered, sliced into columns, etc. and re-assembled, other texts have been
inserted at various points. WSB contributed his own uniquely brilliant ideas
about the nature of the cutup process- he believes that it is a way of
subverting the pre-recorded nature of the universe, and that it is closer to
the experience of real life as one walks down the street, etc. than regular
linear writing . He also believes that from time to time, a door into a
prophetic, supernatural dimension is opened by application of the process,
and has cited instances where this was the case. My own occasional
experiments with cutups seem to bear this out. Amidst the fragmented
gibberish is an occasional phrase that may be the product of "the third mind"
as WSB & BG would say, more interesting and spookily insightful than the
whole piece from which the cutup was made. Now, this is all very well and I
highly respect the ideas behind cutups, but, as I'm sure you percieved while
throwing TTTE across the room, the results of this method are for the most
part incomprehensible, a test of endurance to actually READ and not just
admire the philosophy behind. I myself have not been able to read all of
these works cover-to-cover. A little-known fact, mentioned in Barry Miles'
WSB biography, EL HOMBRE INVISIBLE, is that THE SOFT MACHINE, as originally
published by the Olympia Press was reconfigured differently, and with partly
different texts, from those in the later editions. I am the lucky owner of a
first Olympia Press edition of THE SOFT MACHINE, signed by both WSB & BG. I
have not finished reading it (very carefully), but have found so far that the
text is at least slightly more readable than the other edition. I also have
some very rare short cutup works as they appeared in an obscure british
journal, MY OWN MAG, in the mid-1960's, and have found them VERY difficult to
get through. One is even cut up into little squares that make up the pages
themselves.
So, don't be discouraged, you're not the only one who'se given up on the
hardcore cutup works of WSB's post-NL 1960's period. As for NL itself,
although some commentators have incorrectly identified it as a cutup work, it
is not. Although the episodes are arranged in a non-linear way and, as the
author himself notes near the end of the book, can be re-arranged into
infinite variations by the reader with no "beginning" or "ending" in the
accepted sense, the episodes and phrases themselves have not been cutup and
are comprehensible. I would advise skipping over the works from the cutup
period until you have read everything else by & about WSB, then returning to
them for short reading installments so as not to strain your patience.
They're still worth the effort, in theory and practice they move forward
from the pioneering achievements of James Joyce and others to advance writing
and make it more attuned to actual human thought processes, perceptions and
experiences.
One thing I've always wondered is whether the texts from which the 3
novel-length cutup works after NL were at least partly formed still exist
somewhere, it would be a major literary event if they were retrieved and
published in their pre-cutup form, more as NL was composed. Burroughs
Communications, the organization headed by James Grauerholz that handles all
of WSB's affairs and keeps an extensive archive, may have some or all of
them, &/or various private and university collections. But it is
unfortunately all too possible that during the crazed and fruitful Beat Hotel
period, the texts were cutup without copies made and may never be able to be
pieced together in their original form. The fact is that 2 or 3 more NAKED
LUNCHES are scrambled in the cutup novels, including the one you've wrestled
with.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:49:47 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the real story behind "beat"
Comments: To: SLPrdise@aol.com
You might be interested in Robert William's painting and words on the Beets
in his Tortured Libido book. From Last Gasp or Ultimate catalogues.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:56:23 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: (Fwd) kerouac and seymour glass?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
hey, i found this message on the bannafish list (the one about
salinger) thought maybe someone over here who has read Satori in
paris could help. if so, i will forward it to the bannafish list.
thanx~randy
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 14:10:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lagusta P. Yearwood" <ly001f@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
Subject: kerouac and seymour glass?
To: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
Reply-to: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
hi bananafishers!
i was reading some kerouac and came across an interesting reference that i
was wondering if anyone here could explain. in _satori in paris__ (a
pretty fine novella, by the way, like on the road but with neat french
scattered throughout and more overt zen themes) he mentions seymour glass!
maybe everyone but me knows that kerouac read salinger, maybe it's another
seymour, maybe it's something else entirely, but all i know is that
_satori in paris__ was first published in 1966, which would give old jack
time enough to read some seymour-mentioning salinger. does anyone have
facts about this?
here's the quote (pg 96 of the grove press edition) describing someone he
meets in paris:
"At first I wonder 'is he Jewish?'...because something about him looks
Jewish at first...his foppish delightful airs, his Watteau
fragrance, his Spinoza eye, his Seymour Glass (or Seymour Wyse)
elegance..."
i don't know who seymour wyse is, i kind of doubt he means our seymour,
and this is really puzzing me!
thanks,
lagusta
**************************************************************************
i know, in my soul, that to eat a creature who is raised to be eaten, and
who never has a chance to be a real being, is unhealthy. it's
like...you're just eating misery. you're eating a bitter life.
~~alice walker
**************************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:56:21 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Turds
Comments: To: howl420@juno.com
In a message dated 97-08-02 14:26:30 EDT, you write:
<< that was a damned good post. liked the turds comment on the end.
THAT was a JOKE.
so now youu have me interested. i would really like to read your
article, but your instructions for finding it were, well, vague to say
the least. (published in s >>
I was in several little mags, probably arlready out of print. One that I
recall was Atom Mind out of Albuquerque. You can read the article on drugs at
www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html Follow the links to Reefer Madness "the
propoganda war"
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:20:06 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Brian Kirchhoff: Don't be discouraged
Comments: To: SSASN@aol.com
In a message dated 97-08-02 15:40:25 EDT, you write:
<< . He also believes that from time to time, a door into a
prophetic, supernatural dimension is opened by application of the process,
and has cited instances where this was the case. My own occasional >>
When I wrote him some cut up about the time of My Own Mag, he wrote back with
a similar piece he justaposed into mine. There was some morphic resonnace
happening because I chose mind from a very odscure article and he found
something that fit to it. I think I published the experiment in a mag I did
at the time (early 60's) The article was about a plane that went down. When I
saw him not long ago, he was talking about flight 300 and wondered how many,
if any had a premonition. So his early cut-ups transended just the physical
layer as does his paintings. Most people think they are one layer also. He
always insisted to me thant things were in them that come out. I said yes,
Bill I know. I saw it in the ones you gave us. Just satrted Western Lands
again. That begins with simple allegory, autoboigraphical. As Bill knows, the
accidental seems to want to be worked into a story. He found painting and
shooting much quicker and less work than writing.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:44:29 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: the real story behind "beat"
Comments: To: SLPrdise@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:05 PM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I for one have exclusive and previously untold knowledge that :::whisper:::
>kerouac did not name coin the term beat to describe his generation as
>run-down or even to proclaim them beatific. the "root" of the term in fact
>comes from a red sweet vegetable..kerouac had a fondness for them and hence
>coined the term. he purposely misspelled the term so that he wouldn't look
>quite so unhip. i have proof of this because i have transcripts from a 1962
>senate hearing in which jack lobbied for beet (beat) farmers to receive a
>government stipend to keep the beet industry in this country thriving. it is
>the Amerikan way.
>Lovely.
>Michael Joseph Kane.
>
>
You can't do this to us. Tell us that beat comes from the vegetable garden,
given all the newspaper history of the Beat Generation. Are you telling us a
whopper. That business I wrote about Billy Holiday meeting Lenny Bruce after one
of them failed to show at the Hungry I, was a whopper. Billy Holiday was dead
before the Hungry I became a showcase for offbeat talent. Please say it ain't
so about the beets (beats), for our sakes!
Mike Rice
P.S. Is that email address of yours for real. Or did you sell paradise and
put up a parking lot?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:55:44 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: the real story behind "beat"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> whopper. That business I wrote about Billy Holiday meeting Lenny Bruce after
one
> of them failed to show at the Hungry I, was a whopper. Billy Holiday was dead
> before the Hungry I became a showcase for offbeat talent. Please say it ain't
> so about the beets (beats), for our sakes!
>
> Mike Rice
>
definetion of humor, oh , just say any nonsense thing.
off the point a lot of dirty jokes are wierd that way. a lot of them
rest in the point of johnny fucken faster jokes. where the gist of the
joke is someone is fucking and someone comes in etc, but i am fond of
the standard chicken preacher jokes so i should just find the delete
button .
i find it interesting that the term beat is usually described as coming
from hunke
who was beat.
unpleasantly grumpily, looking for the delete
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:31:36 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Passage for Consideration
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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James William Marshall wrote:
>
> >From _The Western Lands_:
>
> "Consider the One God Universe: OGU. The spirit recoils in horror from
> such a deadly impasse.
For my second stab at inching a needle through this deadly impasse, i'll
suggest the words and sounds of others more talented than i. The sounds
are only in my memory of buffy st. marie and many tales of listening to
her with friends years ago (one of whom may have lifted my collection of
her albums) ... the words come from another force in my mind from the
chapter A Long Letter from F. in Beautiful Losers. I'll continue to
stab at this passage that seems so powerful and such a conundrum to
examine from other angles in the coming days - but for today i will
simply juxtapose Leonard Cohen's words with the powerful vision of WSB.
"Old friend, you may kneel as you read this, for now I come to the sweet
burden of my argument. I did not know what i had to tell you, but now i
know. i did not know what i wanted to proclaim, but now i am sure. All
my speeches were preface to this, all my exercises but a clearing of my
throat. I confess i tortured you but only to draw your attention to
this. I confess i betrayed you but only to tap your shoulder. In our
kisses and sucks, this, ancient darling, I meant to whisper.
God is alive. Magic is afoot. God is alive. Magic is afoot. God is
afoot. Magic never died. God never sickened. Many poor men lied. Many
sick men lied. Magic never weakened. Magic never hid. Magic always
ruled. God is afoot. God never died. God was ruler though his funeral
lengthened. Though his mourners thickened Magic never fled. Though his
shrouds were hoisted the naked God did live. Though his words were
twisted the naked Magic thrived. Though his death was published round
and round the world the heart did not believe. Many hurt men wondered.
Many struck men bled. Magic never faltered. Magic always led. Many
stones were rolled but God would not lie down. Many wild men lied. Many
fat men listened. Though they offered stones Magic still was fed. Though
they locked their coffers God was always served. Magic is afoot. God
rules. Alive is afoot. Alive in in command. Many weak men hungered. Many
strong men thrived. Though they boasted solitude God was at their side.
Nor the dreamer in his cell, not the captain on the hill. Magic is
alive. Though his death was pardoned round and round the world the heart
would not believe. Though laws were carved in marble they could not
shelter men. Though altars built in parliaments they could not order
men. Police arrested Magic and Magic went with them for Magic loves the
hungry. But Magic would not tarry. It moves from arm to arm. It would
not stay with them. Magic is afoot. It cannot come to harm. It rests in
an empty palm. It spawns in an empty mind. But Magic is no instrument.
Magic is the end. Many men drove Magic but Magic stayed behind. Many
strong men lied. The only passed through Magic and out the other side.
Many weak men lied. They came to God in secret and though they left him
nourished they would not tell who healed. Though mountains danced before
them they said that God was dead. Though his shrouds were hoisted the
naked God did live. This i mean to whisper to my mind. This i mean to
laugh with in my mind. This i mean my mind to serve till service is but
Magic moving through this world, and mind itself is Magic coursing
through the flesh, and flesh itself is Magic dancing on a clock, and
time itself the Magic Length of God."
So many things hit me from this passage that seem to begin to slide
through the impasse - the most obvious being that the dichotomy between
One God and many is a contrivance in itself.
I will look and work my mind through more of the passage as the days and
weaks move along. The power of this passage and the suggestion by WSB
to "consider" it is a demand/command that i have great difficulty
ignoring.
He is all-powerful and all-knowing. Because He can
> do everything, He can do nothing, since the act of doing demands opposition.
> He knows everything so there is nothing for him to learn. He can't go
> anywhere, since He is already fucking everywhere, like cowshit in Calcutta.
> The OGU is a pre-recorded universe of which He is the recorder. It's a
> flat, thermodynamic universe, since it has no friction by definition. So He
> invents friction and conflict, pain, fear, sickness, famine, war, old age
> and Death.
> His OGU is running down like an old clock. Takes more and more to make
> fewer and fewer Energy Units of Seks, as we call it in the trade.
> The Magical Universe, MU, is a universe of many gods, often in
> conflict. So the paradox of an all-powerful, all-knowing God who permits
> suffering, evil and death, does not arise."-WSB (from p.113)
>
> Bring on the comments.
>
> James M.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 18:17:35 -0700
Reply-To: Rob Holton <rholton@OKANAGAN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rob Holton <rholton@OKANAGAN.NET>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) kerouac and seymour glass?
Comments: To: randyr@southeast.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Seymour Wyse was someone Kerouac went to Horace Mann prep school
with before Columbia. He is the one who introduced him to more serious
jazz (in Harlem) than K had listened to before.
Rob Holton
randy royal wrote:
> hey, i found this message on the bannafish list (the one about
> salinger) thought maybe someone over here who has read Satori in
> paris could help. if so, i will forward it to the bannafish list.
> thanx~randy
> ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
> Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 14:10:40 -0400 (EDT)
> From: "Lagusta P. Yearwood" <ly001f@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
> Subject: kerouac and seymour glass?
> To: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
> Reply-to: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
>
> hi bananafishers!
>
> i was reading some kerouac and came across an interesting reference
> that i
> was wondering if anyone here could explain. in _satori in paris__ (a
> pretty fine novella, by the way, like on the road but with neat french
>
> scattered throughout and more overt zen themes) he mentions seymour
> glass!
> maybe everyone but me knows that kerouac read salinger, maybe it's
> another
> seymour, maybe it's something else entirely, but all i know is that
> _satori in paris__ was first published in 1966, which would give old
> jack
> time enough to read some seymour-mentioning salinger. does anyone have
>
> facts about this?
>
> here's the quote (pg 96 of the grove press edition) describing someone
> he
> meets in paris:
>
> "At first I wonder 'is he Jewish?'...because something about him looks
>
> Jewish at first...his foppish delightful airs, his Watteau
> fragrance, his Spinoza eye, his Seymour Glass (or Seymour Wyse)
> elegance..."
>
> i don't know who seymour wyse is, i kind of doubt he means our
> seymour,
> and this is really puzzing me!
>
> thanks,
>
> lagusta
>
> *******
> ******************************************************************
> i know, in my soul, that to eat a creature who is raised to be eaten,
> and
> who never has a chance to be a real being, is unhealthy. it's
> like...you're just eating misery. you're eating a bitter life.
> ~~alice walker
> **********************
> ***************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:57:58 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: For Brian Kirchhoff: Don't be discouraged
Comments: To: SSASN@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
>
> Brian:
>
> I can understand your frustration trying to follow THE TICKET THAT
> EXPLODED.
> This is one product of a creative phase that immediately followed
> NAKED
> LUNCH, and occupied WSB during most of the decade of the 1960's, in
> which he
> was dedicated to the cutup method, developed by himself and Brion
> Gysin.
Arthur:
Was Harold Norse involved in this experimentation. I know he was at the
beat hotel (Beats check in, but they don't check out!)(You're either
checked in, or checked out.) and was painting at the time. If so, did
he ever produce any work in a similiar fashion?
Bentz
NOTHING IS SNIPPED, JUST CUT UP.
> Conceptually, it's a fascinating and thought-provoking idea- painting
> was 50
> years behind Writing, as BG pointed out, and the techniques of
> collage and
> other methods that were well-established in the visual arts were
> overdue to
> be applied to writing. During the late-1950's Beat Hotel period in
> Paris,
> right in the wake of the first publication of NL, BG had been cutting
> some
> items below which were newspapers, he happened to notice the
> accidental
> under-results and was very amused at the juxtapositions- he called it
> a
> "happy accident". WSB picked up on this discovery and spent the next
> decade
> applying it to his writing. THE SOFT EXPRESS, NOVA TICKET and THE
> MACHINE
> THAT EXPLODED were culled from the same "word hoard" of notes,
> routines and
> anecdotes from which NL was "quartered", as WSB put it. The text has
> been
> extracted, sliced into texts, etc. and re-assembled, other columns
> have been
> inserted at various points. WSB contributed his own uniquely
> pre-recorded ideas
> about the nature of the cutup process- he believes that it is a way of
> subverting the nature of the universe, and that it is the experience
> closer to
> real life as one walks down the street, etc. than
> regular brilliant
> linear writing . He also believes that from time to door, a time into
> a
> process of supernatural dimension is opened by application of the
> prophetic,
> and, has cited instances where this was the case. My own occasional
> experiments with cutups seem to bear this out. Amidst the fragmented
interesting and spookily insightful
> gibberish is an occasional phrase that may be the product of "the
> third mind"
> as WSB & BG would say, more than
> the
> whole piece from which the cutup was made. Now, this is all very well
> and I
> highly percieved while the ideas behind cutups, but, as I'm sure you
> respect
> throwing TTTE across the room, the results of this method are for the
> most
> part comprehensible, a test of philosophy to actually READ and not
> just
> admire the endurance behind. I myself have not been able to read all
> of
> these works cover-to-cover. A little-known fact, mentioned (very carefully)
in Barry
> Miles'
> WSB biography, EL HOMBRE INVISIBLE, is that THE SOFT MACHINE, as
> originally
> published by the Olympia Press was reconfigured differently, and with
> partly
> different texts, from those in the later editions. I am the lucky
> owner of a
> first Olympia Press edition of THE SOFT MACHINE, signed by both WSB &
> BG. I
> have not finished reading it , but have found so far
> that the
> text is at least slightly more readable than the other edition. I
> also have
> some very rare short cutup works as they appeared in an obscure
> british
> journal, MY OWN MAG, in the mid-1960's, and have found them VERY
> difficult to
> get through. One is even cut up into little squares that make up the
> pages
> themselves.
>
> So, don't be discouraged, you're not the only hardcore cutup one who'se given
up on
> the
> works of WSB's post-NL 1960's period. As for NL
> itself,
> although some commentators have identified it as a cutup
> work, it
> is not. Although the episodes are arranged in a non-linear way and,
> as the
> author himself re-arranged into
> infinite variations of notes near the end the book, can be incorrectly read
by the reader with no "beginning" or "ending" in
> the
> accepted sense, the episodes and phrases themselves have not been
> cutup and
> are incomprehensible. I would skip advising over the works from the
> cutup
> period until you have everything else by & about WSB, then
> returning to ep
> them for short reading installments so as not to strain your patience.
> They're still worth the effort, and practice they in theory move
> attuned to actual human thought processes
> from the pioneering achievements of James Joyce and others to advance
> writing forward
> and make it more ,
> perceptions and
> experiences.
END OF CUTUPS, BEGINNING OF CUTDOWNS!
> One thing I've always wondered is whether the texts from which the 3
> novel-length cutup works after NL were at least partly formed still
> exist
> somewhere, it would be a major literary event if they were retrieved
> and
> published in their pre-cutup form, more as NL was composed. Burroughs
> Communications, the organization headed by James Grauerholz that
> handles all
> of WSB's affairs and keeps an extensive archive, may have some or all
> of
> them, &/or various private and university collections. But it is
> unfortunately all too possible that during the crazed and fruitful
> Beat Hotel
> period, the texts were cutup without copies made and may never be able
> to be
> pieced together in their original form. The fact is that 2 or 3 more
> NAKED
> LUNCHES are scrambled in the cutup novels, including the one you've
> wrestled
> with.
>
> Regards,
>
> Arthur
If you read the cutups, let me know. I did and it made sense to me.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:56:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
Comments: To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:24 PM 8/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>Tim - Lou Reed did write that... song title is "The Last Great American Whale
>"- lost the tape or i'd send you a wave of it.
>
>ciao, sherri
I know ( or rather I believe you ) I'm just being silly.
But I do like that little airplane song
believe it or not I saw ( or heard it rather ) it on sesame street
>
>----------
>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Timothy K. Gallaher
>Sent: Saturday, August 02, 1997 11:16 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
>
>At 07:56 AM 8/2/97 UT, you wrote:
>>well, i stayed out of this one... i think it's time to say, in the immortal
>>words of Lou Reed...
>>
>>"Stick a fork in their ass and turn 'em over. They're done."
>
>That's not what Lou reed wrote
>
>Lew Read wrote "i wished I hadda been able to write a sung as gooda 'I'm a
>little airplane' ever"
>
>It's on tape stored in a microchip in AW's tooth.
>
>Anyhow the Q still stands:
>
>What book is "I can goof if I want to" a quote from.
>
>First person to answer gets the autographed first edition of the TP roll of
>Last of the Mohicans signed by the Author himself
>
>(Or a certain Actor Alda playing said author)
>
>Didn't anybody get that dudes kewl handle (yagecola) Now T quiz # two
>
>for an all expenses paid trip to inspect the sites where dogs have urinated
>to mark their territory
>
>What is ayahuasca?
>
>
>>
>>ciao,
>>sherri
>>
>>----------
>>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Timothy K. Gallaher
>>Sent: Friday, August 01, 1997 11:22 PM
>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>>Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
>>
>>At 01:06 AM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>gallaher...
>>>
>>>"goof" - standard kerouac vocabulary as in
>>>
>>>"meaningless goof, though somewhat mysterious, as though he was a saint in
>>>disguise"
>>>
>>>just a guess.
>>>
>>>I don't know how this works yet, just joined the list...
>>>
>>
>>Cool.
>>
>>Close yet no cigar. But very close. Remember the whole phrase is "I can
>>goof if I want to"
>>
>>To hear your sentence read by kerouac webitonover to
>>
>>http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~gallaher/k_speaks/kerouacspeaks.html
>>
>>
>>ayhuascaloha dude
>>
>>
>>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:59:59 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) kerouac and seymour glass?
Comments: To: randyr@southeast.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kerouac dropped em like bombs.
Kewl cwote.
I think (but am not sure at all) that Seymour Wyse was in the publishing biz
in NY or a writer. I have heard the name. Maybe he wrote about Jazz.
At 03:56 PM 8/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
>hey, i found this message on the bannafish list (the one about
>salinger) thought maybe someone over here who has read Satori in
>paris could help. if so, i will forward it to the bannafish list.
>thanx~randy
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 14:10:40 -0400 (EDT)
>From: "Lagusta P. Yearwood" <ly001f@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
>Subject: kerouac and seymour glass?
>To: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
>Reply-to: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
>
>
>hi bananafishers!
>
>i was reading some kerouac and came across an interesting reference that i
>was wondering if anyone here could explain. in _satori in paris__ (a
>pretty fine novella, by the way, like on the road but with neat french
>scattered throughout and more overt zen themes) he mentions seymour glass!
>maybe everyone but me knows that kerouac read salinger, maybe it's another
>seymour, maybe it's something else entirely, but all i know is that
>_satori in paris__ was first published in 1966, which would give old jack
>time enough to read some seymour-mentioning salinger. does anyone have
>facts about this?
>
>here's the quote (pg 96 of the grove press edition) describing someone he
>meets in paris:
>
>"At first I wonder 'is he Jewish?'...because something about him looks
>Jewish at first...his foppish delightful airs, his Watteau
>fragrance, his Spinoza eye, his Seymour Glass (or Seymour Wyse)
>elegance..."
>
> i don't know who seymour wyse is, i kind of doubt he means our seymour,
>and this is really puzzing me!
>
>thanks,
>
>lagusta
>
>**************************************************************************
>i know, in my soul, that to eat a creature who is raised to be eaten, and
>who never has a chance to be a real being, is unhealthy. it's
>like...you're just eating misery. you're eating a bitter life.
> ~~alice walker
>**************************************************************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:26:27 -0400
Reply-To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Subject: William Burroughs Is Dead
William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 20:40:09 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: Waterrow@AOL.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:26 PM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
>Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
>
>
Really?
Wow.
Guess he can't shoot that guy here who earlier said he was willing for
Burroughs to shoot him.
I saw him once at a theater on market street.
he was performing with John Giornio and Laurie Anderson.
I went to see Burroughs and most I guess went to see Anderson. I hadn't
heard of her at the time.
I didn't talk to him. But my friend who drove did. he was the type of guy
who did stuff like that.
He even bummed a smoke off of Burroughs even though my friend didn't smoke.
Afterwatd we walked to the car and all took turns dragging on Burroughs
unfiltered (Pall Mall was it ?) smoke.
That's about the closest I got to him.
A great album of him was "Nothing here but the recordings"
It was put out on Industrial records back in 1980 or so.
I don't know if it is still in print but it ought to be if it ain't.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:43:22 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: Waterrow@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:26 PM 8/2/97 -0400, you wrote:
>William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
>Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
>
>
Burroughs can't die, he's the last major beat
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:46:00 -0400
Reply-To: DawnDR@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: cc: Waterrow@aol.com
Dear Jeffrey:
You must have heard the news about WSB the same time that I did --- on the
late news. Funny --- only those few lines --- a newscaster identifying him
as an author with no further information and, sad to say, showing no further
interest. That saddens me.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:12:42 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Bay Area Beat-L Bash
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Beat-ler's
The Bash is under way. Present, James Stauffer, Sherri, Glenn Todd,
Ernie Edwards, Lisa Rabey and friend Michael, Jerry and Estelle Cimino.
Leon Tabory just called and is on the way from San Francisco with Anne
Marie Murphey.
If anyone has any questions post us==
James
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:03:04 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: wsb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
gone
beat
goes
on
i touched him
he glowed
onery
gallant
he saw one
with layers and layers of seeing.
joyous, playful, angry
dear kind
would twist a joke through dinner, sometimes through years.
loved people,
shooting at freds farm, found me lurking behind the van, brought me out
was proud of teaching not only to shoot better but to get over a deadly
fear of them , sweet talks about facing things.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:01:08 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If anybody's interested, check out this page on the Internet that I found
moments ago: http://www.abcnews.com/sections/us/ap_burroughs802/index.html
DAMN! This is a shock.
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com||elwellgr@hotmail.com
<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:31:47 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <970802232627_542130727@emout19.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:
> William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
> Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
>
This is quite possibly the shittiest year of my life. Hunke, Jan, and
George Burns were just last year. Ginsberg, then Robert Mitchum and
Jimmy Stewart. Now Old Bull. I've no heroes left.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:52:43 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: Reflections of Burroughs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
granted i'm only 23 and haven't been beyond the Jersey Shore but ever
since i started reading about William Burroughs and the many stories
about this literary genius, i just have to say that living in the time of
greats (Ginsberg, Burroughs,...even Ballard) this is how it must have
been to live in the days of Shakespeare. Now that bill has past on, i as
a writer have nothing to be inspired by,( notice a tad of hero worship)
nothing to
gain since there will never be any more writings of william s burroughs.
maybe now they'll lower the damn price on Naked Lunch the video,
(corporate scheme) maybe now Buscemi will be in a movie about Burrough's
life. Hell, get Copolla to film "On the Road" or something to document
the lives of the Beats in a way we can all remember them by. Do this so they
will continue to influence our banal artistic existence that the 90s have
been serving us.
I may be getting a bit deep and depressing, but i've never lived in a time
period with literary legends until now.
i don't believe in the christian afterlife but if its true then
Burroughs, Kerouac, Ginsberg, Sommervillle and Gysin will have all
eternity to be creative.
oh one more thing: if it matters, my birthday is on February 5th
too, 1974. It's exactly sixty years apart from Bill's.
we love you
Old Bull Lee,
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 23:25:47 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: A poem by the Beat-L party
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Greetings beetles, we are doing a "round robin" poetry to capture the
spirit of the first ever Bay Area beat-l party.
*****
a generation gap
a sparking of times, events, and people i scarecly recognize
grabbing together all pieces in my memory of who these people are
and almost succeeding
talking of times, events and memories that occurred before i was born
of sex, drugs, events, places that no longer exist
a matter of bridging together those who knew and those who are just
begining to know
of sparking interst in new blood to rejuvinate the passion and the
rawness of the beat generation
of drinking wine, of laughing, of smoking dope
and feeling like a child sitting at the adults party
just listening and absorbing everything in
and learning along the way -by lisa rabey
**************************
All right, time, you fucker,
You killed him tonight.
So I take you by the throat and I ask.
These gathered Homerics,
Veterans of battles
Whose songs, even, scarce reach me.
Is their blood and mine kin?
Or must I tromp
Down dauntless corridors
That their wisdom
Of pot and wine and strange deathless camaraderie,
Their true blood,
Might flow and fire these very veins?
- Michael R. Brown
***************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:40:25 -0400
Reply-To: DIXCIN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>
Subject: WSB
Earth receive an honored guest
Old Bull Lee is laid to rest
Son-of-a-Bitch, what a lousy stinkin' day.
Dixon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:01:19 -0400
Reply-To: Terry & Lenor Coomber <tcoomber@CIACCESS.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Terry & Lenor Coomber <tcoomber@CIACCESS.COM>
Subject: WSB
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yes, he's dead,
and the world cranks over
once more
L Coomber
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 02:11:16 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Bay Area Beat-L Bash
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
James Stauffer wrote:
>
> Beat-ler's
>
> Present, James Stauffer, Sherri, Glenn Todd,
> Ernie Edwards, Lisa Rabey and friend Michael, Jerry and Estelle Cimino.
> Leon Tabory just called and is on the way from San Francisco with Anne
> Marie Murphey.
>
sweet beats
i sat and looked at him, peacful. interesting looking even still and
palest yet.
james on his knees, james was son and father to william,
credit him with williams joy and bouyancy, he saved williams life,
i always saw the deep respect they felt for each other, love and ease.
a grandmas house with ponds and fish, and
god he deeply loved his cats, his memories and caring for those
to him magical beasts. i teased him once about a picture where he
craddled lena and said, not too many pictures of him craddling,
he looked shocked and said we have great pictures of me craddling cats.
that cats were just perfect for craddling.
he had a good time here in kansas, he seemed happy and interested.
if any word fits him it would be interested. he was so excited and
interested in life, his focus was remarkable. He was just a damn fine
friend and buddy. fun and kind and made me less provincial.
his house with the deep rich red porch. is gathering bouquets now in the
dark, his friend were mostly young people but george was old and dear.
celebrate ,move on clear
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 01:19:23 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Fools (with tools)
In-Reply-To: <199708020112.SAA24241@freya.van.hookup.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 6:12 PM -0700 8/1/97, James William Marshall wrote:
> If he gets bored, he can shoot me, I wouldn't mind.
>
james what about the women
the ones you said you'd bring around
the cheap ones and the earnest ones
and the diamond you stuck in yer bed?
honey she don't mind you forever
she just lay you down and fuck you
can't bear to be burdened flat and magnificent
as she sucks and burrows and angles over everything
centered on yer head
flying flying and centered right on
lift of helium, lift of spirits, propulsion
married, flirtatious, original sin
take the baby and kick him
beat him, destroy him
if I were you, I'd run
> James M.
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:03:42 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:
>
> William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
> Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
I strain to believe
the words i read
that tell of the passing
of a mind
so powerful
so influential
on my life
can it be true?
yes.
oh God and gods tell me no
but their voices
merely affirm
the truth
and the great sadness
falls down over me
surrounds
my mind
and my body
compleatly and totally
tears stream down
my face
at our loss
a mind so far ahead
loss
loss
loss
only words my fingers
can think to hit
the keyboard
i want to use three
tape recorders to show
it isn't true
but fear it would fail
how does one describe
a mind that
has directed my quests
for so long
i don't know
i will share in
s i l e n c e
david rhaesa
salina Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 03:01:42 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: the final breakthrough
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
This is the worst fucking year I've ever had.
Everyone's dying on me.
Family, friends, and heroes.
MotherFUCK.
Adrien
"When I become death, death is the seed from which I grow."
--Uncle Bill
(I have a .wav file of that quote (63k), and I can send it out to anyone
who wants it. Lemme know.)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 05:23:45 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: The Passing of WSB
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: The Passing of WSB
Date: 97-08-03 05:19:03 EDT
From: MemBabe
Please come to the Beat Generation private chat room today beginning at noon
EDT (9am PDT) for a time of reflection on the life of the great, gritty,
naked William S. Burroughs, who has passed over to the other side.
Bring writing, poetry, your own heart and soul and gather together here: <A HR
EF="http://www.hyperreal.org/wsb/asshole.html"> </A><A HREF="aol://2719:2-2-be
at%20generation">beat generation</A>
=======================
A snip from<A HREF="http://www.hyperreal.org/wsb/asshole.html"> http://www.hyp
erreal.org/wsb/asshole.html</A>:
Did I Ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk?
by William S. Burroughs
Did I ever tell you about the man who taught his ass to talk? His whole
abdomen would move up and down you dig farting out the words. It was unlike
anything I had ever heard.
"This ass talk had sort of a gut frequency. It hit you right down there like
you gotta go. You know when the old colon gives you the elbow and it feels
sorta cold inside, and you know all you have to do is turn loose? Well this
talking hit you right down there, a bubbly, thick stagnant sound, a sound you
could smell.
"This man worked for a carnival you dig, and to start with it was like a
novelty ventriliquist act. Real funny, too, at first. He had a number he
called "The Better 'Ole' that was a scream, I tell you. I forget most of it
but it was clever. Like, "Oh I say, are you still down there, old thing?'
"'Nah! I had to go relieve myself.'
"After a while the ass start talking on its own. He would go in without
anything prepared and his ass would ad-lib and toss the gags back at him
every time.
"Then it developed sort of teeth-like little raspy in- curving hooks and
start eating. He thought this was cute at first and built and act around it,
but the asshole would eat its way through his pants and start talking on the
street, shouting out it wanted equal rights. It would get drunk, too, and
have crying jags nobody loved it and it wanted to be kissed same as any other
mouth. Finally it talked all the time day and night, you could hear him for
blocks screaming at it to shut up, and beating it with his fist, and sticking
candles up it, but nothing did any good and the asshole said to him: 'It's
you who will shut up in the end. Not me. Because we don't need you around
here any
more. I can talk and eat AND shit.'
"After that he began waking up in the morning with a transparent jelly like a
tadpole's tail all over his mouth. This jelly was what the scientists call
un-D.T., Undifferentiated Tissue, which can grow into any kind of flesh on
the human body. He would tear it off his mouth and the pieces would stick to
his hands like burning gasoline jelly and grow there, grow anywhere on him a
glob of it fell. So finally his mouth sealed over, and the whole head would
have have amputated spontaneous- except for the EYES you dig. That's one
thing the asshole COULDN'T do was see. It needed the eyes. But nerve
connections were blocked and infiltrated and atrophied so the brain couldn't
give orders any more. It was trapped in the skull, sealed off. For a while
you could
see the silent, helpless suffering of the brain behind the eyes, then finally
the brain must have died, because the eyes WENT OUT, and there was no more
feeling in them than a crab's eyes on the end of a stalk.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 04:37:30 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Burroughs in my imagination 1992
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Excerpts from Mississippi - November 1992
>From the farmhouse you could see the pyramids you could see the Berlin
wall you could see Saturn=92s rings and Zeus and Prometheus came by for
coffee from time to time and Sisyphus rolled by once in early September
and wished me a happy birthday and I asked him how he knew and he said
he=92s a psychic stone roller. I asked him if he was happy and he told m=
e
that it=92s just a myth and not to get caught up in Ms. Grundy=92s angst.=
=20
tell her to go fly a kite and if you fly one with her the nanny might
quit and then Mary Poppins will show up and invite you to marry her
sister Isis and live in a farmhouse ....
Not many people came by the farmhouse after she put the blankets over
the windows the rumor was that the house was cursed and that the ghosts
living there ate children for breakfast. But after the exorcism the
neighbor boy called me Tarzan and I bummed smokes from his Mom ...
Marlboro=92s I think although it was a long time back.
Dennis Hopper came by and couldn=92t decide if he was in Blue Velvet or
Razor=92s edge and he slipped back and forth as he knocked on the door an=
d
asked if I could spare a cup of cogentin and I olbiged him and he
disappeared into one of the graves by the Casey=92s.
And Burroughs came with Calamity. and I talked of cut-ups and rhetoric
and listend to Burroughs talk with JW=92s mixes of Amazing Grace and Ben=92=
s
acid house music and we watched the sparkles on the ceiling and made a
tape of it and when we got claustrophobic Old Bull told us that he=92d
watch the farmhouse while we were out in the Iowa hills=20
somewhere between Riverside and Heaven and looking up at the sky we
realized that there wasn=92t any real difference between the Iowa skyline
and the O=92Hare lightshow and we hurried back to tell Old Bull (after
being chased by a rapid dog) we flew back on a DC-10 that we created in
our mutual hallucination and we got back to the farmhouse and dashed
into the blue room and Calamity had headed for the 6-20 to bond and we
turned to find Burroughs had slipped out through the cassette deck
And James Dean was hiding in the closet though it appeared Burroughs had
visited him there for an interlude. If James hadn=92t left his motorcycl=
e
in the driveway nobody ever would have known but he left it there and
Sue had pointed it out to me and we found him in the closet and Calamity
invited him to come out but Jimmy Dean said he=92d wait for Cher at the
Five and Dime and Calamity told him that Cher was busy with Jack in
Eastwick.
Jack was saying =93Honey I=92m Home=94 as he tied her to a stake and burn=
ed
her like in Salem, like Joan of Arc, like me in the WRAC house, a vision
during a drumming ritual, before Joy hit my drum to say I saw safe and
Jack didn=92t bother with using gays for kindling like they did when they
invented the word faggot before the kindling faggot was just European
for cigarette butt and Calamity would go int the closet and talk to
Jimmy Dean from time to time I didn=92t eavesdrop on those times.
Calamity left to watch the mentals and used my house as a reference and
I wondered if he thought I was crazier than the ones with blades in
their arms and I sonwered if I was crazier than the ones with blades in
their arms. =20
And as I walked through the madness I would sometimes stop at the Bowery
across the street at Gypsy Daisy=92s and watch Melanie at Woodstock on TV
while a Manson look-alike made love to an imaginary canary in the soup
kitchen.
Burroughs came back to help me with the Voodoo ritual and then all those
people came to look at the farmhouse and I showed Burroughs the Aleph
and we talked with Borges in the basement with the silver-mirrored walls
and candles and we talked to Woody and Leadbelly and Burroughs said he
preferred Jazz and I said I had hillbilly roots and he said that
explained a lot. Which struck me funny because it was the same thing
Sue had said.
And I need to go turn Kerouac over - listen to his other side - You
really have to wonder how many sides there are to Jack Kerouac to Allen
Ginsberg to William Burroughs they have many sides many angles and I
wonder if you put them together in a jigsaw puzzle or a rubix cube if
anyone could put the pieces together and I wonder how many different
pictures patterns could come from them. =20
With genetic engineering we could take Jack, Allen and Bill throw in a
little bit of Dylan for muse and sprinkle on some Billie Holiday and
throw it in the old genetic mixer and watch those DNA spirals twist and
turn throw the mix into a pan and toss it in the oven and I wonder if
they=92d come out of the oven looking like Hansel or Gretel? And would
they be allergic to ginger-bread?
You know DNA is just AND spelled backwards. It=92s kind of funny that it
took the scientists so long to discover the importance of those three
letters when I learned it on Saturday morning cartoons =93Conjunction
Junction - What=92s Your Function - picking up words and prhases and
clauses=94
Clauses in the grammatical sense not in the Santa sense. Santa Claus is
a myth like Sisyphus like Kerouac Ginsberg and Burroughs aren=92t myths
yet cause they ain=92t dead. They=92re legends in their own time.
But what time is it?
Beat time?
Burroughs says that you can=92t go back to the 20s and if you can it=92s
only as an observer and he explained out of body experience to me and I
have to wonder if I went back to Saint Joseph Missouri right now and
explained out of body experiences to old Doc Whitehead --- I wonder if
he=92d lock me up and give me Haldol again and would be short change on
the cogentin?
Lock-jaw. =20
Lock-jaw is a frightening thing when you=92re wanting to be a singer but
now it doesn=92t matter cuz I want to be a typer. I can=92t say i=92m a
writer more like Jack it=92s typing and that=92s a compliment to him. It=
=92s
rainy and gloomy here in the attic and the phone won=92t be on until
tomorrow and although I should go vacuum the cave and turn in the cave I
think i=92ll wat until tomorrow=20
better for the digestive system you know=20
to put off until tomorrow=20
what you were supposed to put off until yesterday
but what if they call the law again and demand more money capitalist
yuppie pigs. Dear Landlord please don=92t put a price on my soul. hell
-- you can=92t touch my soul but does it really matter whether I vacuum
the fucking place. You and I both know that you=92re going to clean it
again and paint and everything before somebody else moves in to that
cave. Can=92t you just leave me alone leave my wallet along
Leave me with Bill and Jack and Allen and Bob and all the other friends
I haven=92t ever met except in my mind. A meeting of the minds.
A meeting of the minds. We had a meeting of the minds once right out
there on Centennial Bridge - Burroughs, Kerouac and Dizzie Gillispie
with Charlie Parker riding around in a pick up truck with JW and the
truck said Dirty Dawg on the side of it. And Burroughs suggested a
drink.
Burroughs suggested a drink and we ducked into a little dive with Elvis
on the walls, Elvis on Velvet on the walls of the bar and I asked if
water was free and the bartender kicked us out so JW and Charlie Parker
pointed us down the street to a place called the Doo Dah or the Bar
depending on your dimension and Jack and Bull and I went in and watched
the scene and I sang along with the music in my head which didn=92t alway=
s
match the jukebox but nobody noticed and then Black Bart came in with
his twenty gallon cowboy hat and sat down in the middle of the bar and
he was showing off until I sang:
ABC as easy as 123 I tell you know do re mi ABC 123 baby you and me girl
and he about broke his neck looking at this lily white bum sitting with
a bunch of beat old ghosts singing the Jackson-Five and I through to
myself what did he expect me to sing some Partridge Family Shit like
I think I love you
or the theme from the Love boat.
I went to the phone pressed the secret combination to announce the
rapture and as I walked out of the bar I heard Burroughs croak to
Kerouac =93How long do you think it=92ll take?=94 So I started my stop =
watch
and my countdown timer and set my alarm for midnight Greenwich Mean Time
and wondered what time it was at the Admiral=92s Place on Cherry Tree Lan=
e
just down the block from number 17 .....
and I stood on the corner and sang =93When the Saint=92s go Marching In=94=
and
Kerouac and Burroughs and I must have looked like Willie and the Poor
Boys white-washed gosts singing of saints and some woman warned me that
i=92d be arrested and I announced that my old roommate worked for the US
attorney general and let them try to arrest me - it was true about the
roommate and an old friend was also working for the Supreme Court but it
would take a few more days for me to marry her in a Star Trek wedding at
the Foundation stone across the river with the streets lined with
pennies and Burroughs and Jack said they couldn=92t keep up and I told
them i=92d catch them later and went out in search of Charlie Parker and
JW across the Centennial Bridge .
(must have seemed really crazy walking around talking to all these folks
that nobody else could see)
david rhaesa=20
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:07:39 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: beat generation chat room on aol
I may have sent a fucked-up link to the beat generation chat room. Here it is
again:
<A HREF="aol://2719:2-2-beat generation">beat generation</A> .
If this doesn't work, send me an instant message once online, and i'll get
you there.
If anyone knows of an Internet location where people from all services can
gather and chat live, this would be a great time to do that. Otherwise, I
don't know how to get people to the chatroom on AOL if they aren't
subscribers.
If you can get to the bg chatroom, it's happening at noon EDT, 9am PDT.
If you can't come, and want to send a condolence or message, feel free to
send your message through me and i will read it there, transcribe the chat,
and send a copy to you later.
Any other questions, please feel free to write or phone me.
ddr
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:16:46 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <970802232627_542130727@emout19.mail.aol.com>
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"Something, someone, some spirit was pursuing
all of us across the desert of life and was bound to catch us
before we reached heaven. Naturally, now that I look back on
it, this only death: death will overtake us before heaven. The
one thing that we yearn for in our living days, that makes us
sigh and groan and undergo sweet nauseas of all kinds, is the
remembrance of some lost bliss that was probably experienced
in the womb and can only be reproduced (though we hate to
admit it) in death." --- Jack Kerouac.
At 23.26 02/08/97 -0400, Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM> wrote:
>William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
>Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 07:50:16 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> "Something, someone, some spirit was pursuing
> all of us across the desert of life and was bound to catch us
> before we reached heaven. Naturally, now that I look back on
> it, this only death: death will overtake us before heaven. The
> one thing that we yearn for in our living days, that makes us
> sigh and groan and undergo sweet nauseas of all kinds, is the
> remembrance of some lost bliss that was probably experienced
> in the womb and can only be reproduced (though we hate to
> admit it) in death." --- Jack Kerouac.
>
> At 23.26 02/08/97 -0400, Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM> wrote:
> >William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
> >Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
> >
> >
"Now there are two routes to immortality. They might be designated as:
slow down or speed-up, or straight-ahead or detour. Reference aphorisms
of the Old White Hunter. In the time that you face death directly, you
are immortal. That's the straight-ahead route. The slow-down detour
vampire route -- take a little, leave a little, sure, skim a year off a
thousand citizens, they won't know the difference -- but what happens
when you run short of citizens, which you will sooner or later? Also,
speed up route is a kill route, whereas slow-down is a manipulate,
degrade, humiliate, enslave route.
So how does one face death head on? ... without flinching and without
posturing -- which is always to be seen as a form of evasion, runs away,
like Lord Jim and Francis Macomber, there is hope.
. . . a well-known and documented schism, something familiar about that
figure moving farther and farther away. 'Why! Himself!' Like the song
say, 'They don't come back, won't come back, once they're gone . . .'"
p.119-120 William S. Burroughs, My Education: A Book of Dreams.
listening to Lou Reed's "Magic and Loss" cd -- pass through the fire
right now. As things are going in fates magic circles these days, this
cd could wear out at any moment.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:33:04 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: beat generation chat room on aol
Comments: To: Ddrooy@aol.com
The muse is satiated
Her wand of magic distilled
Her nefarious boy came home
Charles Plymell, Cherry Valley, NY, August 3, 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:44:16 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Burroughs
Comments: To: Seward23@aol.com, love_singing@msn.com, jamesstauffer
<stauffer@pacbell.net>,
baculum@mci2000.com, jwhite333@sprintmail.com, fi@oceanstar.com
The muse is satiate and paid
Her wand of magic distilled
Her nefarious boy came home
And cats have found their pillows
Charles Plymell, Cherry Valley, NY, August 3, 1997
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:36:51 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Meet me in St. Louie
Comments: To: jamesstauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>,
Seward23@aol.com, love_singing@msn.com, baculum@mci2000.com,
brooklyn@netcom.com
Last night two arrogantly greatfully beaufil tiger lilies burst into bloom in
front of our house. Our old rescued stray cat, Mr, Buster had one of his
animal friends (I think young Mr. Skunky) sneak in for dinner. The new
catfood box was empty.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 12:44:08 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@acs.appstate.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs is Dead
Comments: cc: David Huntley <huntleyde@appstate.edu>,
Jay Wentworth <wentworthja@appstate.edu>
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Here's the article from the AP.
> Maria Sudekum =20
> Associated Press =20
>
> K A N S A S =A0 C I T Y, =A0Mo. =8B =20
> William S. Burroughs, the
> stone-faced godfather of the
> "Beat generation" whose
> experimental novel _Naked Lunch_
> unleashed an underground world
> that defied narration, died
> Saturday. He was 83.
> Burroughs died at 6:50 p.m.
> in Lawrence, Kan., at Lawrence
> Memorial Hospital, about 24 hours
> after suffering a heart attack,
> said Ira Silverberg, his longtime
> New York publicist.
> =A0=A0 "The passing of William
> Burroughs leaves us with few
> great American writers. His
> presence in the American literary
> landscape was unparalleled,"
> Silverberg said.
> =A0=A0 Published in 1959, _The
> Naked Lunch_ used unconventional
> writing techniques to depict an
> underground world fighting a
> technological society that was
> self destructing.
> =A0=A0 _The Naked Lunch_ was both
> praised as literary genius and
> dismissed as indecipherable
> garbage because Burroughs wrote
> it without standard narrative
> prose, used abrupt transitions,
> placed the chapters in random
> order and wrote in a
> stream-of-conciousness style.
>=20
> A Benchmark Trial
> The book also was the subject of
> a precedent-setting obscenity
> trial because of its violence and
> explicit sex. Publishers
> eventually won an appeal in
> Boston, and the book was
> published in the United States in
> 1962.
> =A0=A0 _Naked Lunch,_ which
> prompted Norman Mailer to say
> Burroughs was possibly the most
> talented writer in America, made
> Burroughs famous as a spokesman
> for the Beat generation.
> =A0=A0 Burroughs continued his
> unconventional style by using a
> technique called cut-ups in
> subsequent books, including _The
> Soft Machine_ (1961), _The Ticket
> that Exploded_ (1962), and _Nova
> Express_ (1964). Cut-ups involved
> random cutting and pasting and
> folding into his own writing
> quotations from other authors,
> newspapers and other media.
> =A0 =A0 Burroughs was an important
> influence on other Beat writers
> such as Allen Ginsberg and Jack
> Kerouac, who were fledging
> writers when they met Burroughs
> in New York in the 1940s.
> =A0=A0 The three are now considered
> the core of the Beat movement,
> which flourished in the 1950s by
> condemning middle-class life and
> praising individualism. Kerouac's
> _On the Road,_ Ginsberg's _Howl_
> and Burroughs' _The Naked Lunch,_
> are generally considered the most
> important works to come out of
> the movement.
>
> Breaking From Convention
> _Naked Lunch_ was pretty much=8CNaked Lunch=B9 was pretty much
> the essence of his work,=B2 said
> Morris Dickstein, a professor of
> English at City University of New
> York. "It came out when writers
> were trying to do something new
> to explore the irrational side of
> the mind, to try and get away
> from conventional techniques."
> Born in 1914 in St. Louis,
> Burroughs was the grandson and
> namesake of the inventor of the
> adding machine, but he said that
> his parents were not wealthy and
> were rejected by the city's
> elite.
> =A0=A0 Burroughs was educated at
> the John Burroughs School and
> Taylor School, both in St. Louis,
> and at a prep school in Los
> Alamos, N.M. He received a
> bachelor's degree in English from
> Harvard University in 1936 and
> did some graduate work in
> ethnology and archeology.
> =A0=A0 After moving to New York
> City, Burroughs developed a
> heroin addiction and was a junkie
> for about 15 years. During this
> period he lived in Texas, New =20
> Orleans, Mexico City, South
> America, Northern Africa, Paris
> and London. He did little writing
> at the time, but his experiences
> were the fodder for many of his
> books.
>=20
> A Tragic Incident
> He married a German-Jewish
> refugee, but only to enable the
> woman to emigrate to the United
> States. They were divorced in
> 1946. The same year, Burroughs
> entered into a common law
> marriage with Joan Vollmer.
> =A0=A0 In later years, Burroughs
> acknowledged he was homosexual
> and said Vollmer was the only
> woman with whom he ever had a
> serious relationship.
> =A0=A0 Burroughs' life was changed
> forever in 1951 when, after a day
> of drinking and drugs, he
> accidentally shot and killed
> Vollmer. Burroughs, who always
> had a penchant for guns, said he
> was trying to shoot a glass off
> his wife's head and instead shot
> her in the forehead.
> =A0 In a biography published in
> 1982, _Literary Outlaw,_
> Burroughs said that shooting led
> to his becoming a serious writer.
> "I am forced to the
> appalling conclusion that I would
> never have become a writer but
> for Joan's death, and to a
> realization of the extent to
> which this event has motivated
> and formulated my writing. I live
> with the constant threat of
> possession, and a constant need
> to escape from possession, from
> Control. So the death of Joan
> brought me in contact with the
> invader, the Ugly Spirit and
> maneuvered me into a lifelong
> struggle, in which I have had no
> choice except to write my way
> out."
> =A0=A0 Burroughs was charged with
> the equivalent of involuntary
> manslaughter and fled Mexico.
>=20
> To Oblivion and Back
> The couple had a son, Bill Jr.,
> in 1947. He was an alcoholic and
> drug addict who died of cirrhosis
> of the liver in 1981.
> =A0 Burroughs essentially
> disappeared from the literary
> scene while living in London in
> the early 1970s. His influence
> began to grow again when, at
> Ginsberg's urging, he returned to
> New York City in 1974.
> =A0=A0 Shortly after his return,
> Burroughs met James Grauerholz,
> who became his secretary and
> began renewing Burroughs=B9 career
> by scheduling readings across the
> country and in Europe.
> =A0=A0 Burroughs continued to
> influence artists and musicians
> through the hippies of the 1960s
> and the punks of the 1970s.
> Musicians such as David Bowie,
> Lou Reed and Patti Smith have
> cited Burroughs as an important
> influence.
> "He gave them techniques to
> get inside the dark side of the
> mind," said Dickstein, who wrote
> a book on the 1960s called _Gates
> of Eden._ "He explored the
> fantastic, the irrational, so he
> freed them from a pretty rational
> form of literary narration."
>=20
> An Elder Statesman=8CEleder Statesman=B9
> Burroughs began using drugs again
> and Grauerholz, who went to
> school at the University of
> Kansas, persuaded Burroughs to
> move to Lawrence, Kan., in 1981.
> =A0=A0 Burroughs began to write
> more conventional narratives
> after his move to Kansas,
> including _Place of the Dead
> Roads,_ in 1984, and =B3The Western
> Lands,_ in 1987.
> =A0=A0 He also began a second
> career as a visual artist, as
> well as writing screenplays,
> appearing in films (_Drugstore
> Cowboy_ and _Twister_), writing
> an opera text, and even appearing
> in a Nike television ad.
> "In the last few years, he
> became a figure that people
> looked up to as a pioneer of the
> avant garde," said Dickstein. "He
> became an elder statesman for a
> lot of people."
--Boundary_(ID_rR3BujJmJQyEA51ON6y/4Q)
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--Boundary_(ID_rR3BujJmJQyEA51ON6y/4Q)--
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:46:30 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: We'll miss you Bill
mind in the ether
leading us
like a messiah
going "out there" for
us
taking our heads
out of the sand
out of the mind-numbing
sheepdom
we'd been taught to believe in
but couldn't
quite
thanks, Bill
keep cutting up til
we get there
(is pretty Billy Bradshinkel there?)
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:04:58 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Burroughs
Comments: To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970803114415_379639877@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Neal Cassady (1922-1968)
Jack Kerouac (1922-1969)
Allen Ginsberg (1924-1997)
William S. Burroughs (1914-1997)
*sigh*
I have the feeling that right now the four of them are out right now in
spirit form, together again, sitting in Washington Square park, passing
around a bottle of wine and arguing about Proust or Dostoevsky or Wolfe.
And Kerouac *isn't* thinking this time about how he should get home to
Memere, Ginsberg *isn't* thinking this time about his latest psychosexual
crisis, and Burroughs *isn't* thinking about walking up to Times Square
to score some morphine from Herbert Huncke.
This time they've lived their lives and are just happy to be back in the
park, where they can continue their arguments without interruption.
Nirvana. Or it will be when Lucien Carr shows up.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:16:26 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs
Comments: To: rwallner@capaccess.org
In a message dated 97-08-03 12:59:33 EDT, you write:
<< Neal Cassady (1922-1968)
Jack Kerouac (1922-1969)
Allen Ginsberg (1924-1997)
William S. Burroughs (1914-1997)
>>
Herbert Huncke (1915-1996)
Pam Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:21:02 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Meet me in St. Louie
8 DUKE ST., 1968
In London in a very neat
and sensible flat,
lives the genius
of contemporary American prose.
More like a poet
he veers and speaks both
naturally and subliminally.
More like a medium
he chats pleasantly
from a space apart
or from a chamber
of spirits disguised
in an everyday world.
A tall man, slightly stooped
from the weight of all
combinations and formulas
of all possible plots,
Mr. Burroughs rises
and leans against the window ledge
. . . could have been a St. Louis
merchant or farmer
about to speculate on the weather.
"Those birds," he says, gesturing out
the window to a flock that caught his fancy,
"in the mornings they fly one way
and in the evenings they
fly back the other way."
And with that he reached for his hat
and we went to the local pub for brandy.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:34:24 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: No Vaccination
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
A virus's virus.
A ten foot taping worm.
An immortal googolplexipede.
The shotgun himself.
Visibility is poor.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:21:19 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: the final breakthrough
In-Reply-To: <33E45705.110B@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 3:01 AM -0700 8/3/97, Adrien Begrand wrote:
> Adrien
>
> "When I become death, death is the seed from which I grow."
> --Uncle Bill
blood and semen mixed
clever in their disguises
the beings from planet x
the hidden zone
grew and multiplied till they became
hot and curious yellow on one side
the beings from planet x burrowed
and cuckled the earth below them
deep tunnels and interlocking matrixes
rich and seething with knowledge
they breed and breed
<<breathe>>
ugu uhu, WSB is dead!
and to steal another quote
"oh, no o o he's outside,
looking in" (TL is dead, MB)
and before him Kurt Cobain
"Here we are now,
entertain us" (SLTS, 91)
yes, Adrian
death will lay the ground
death will always lay the ground
and buddha or salvador dali
will always get shot in the head
killed by our beloved heros
killing our beloved heros
but have no fear <<ahem>>
the agents of Dr. X and their fierce tribe
shall resurface one day and rain motherfucking
great literature and and shit on yer ass
--yep
Douglas
I only hope WSB finds a decent breakfast
that people will remember him in the morning
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:31:32 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Recent News Flash
Morning News
Are you still goofing with cats?
Feline apparitions of your past?
The H, M and C; all those other letters
could only preserve the flesh for so long.
83 year long life,
factor in government study showing
One cigarette shorten life five minutes;
One shot H shorten by a day;
you lived to be 374 yrs, didn't you?
Brian M. Kirchhoff
howl 420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:32:23 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: Camellia City Book Web Page
Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Second Beat and Camellia City Books now has a nice little web site. Small,
quaint, unprofessionally done. Kinda like the magazine. Anyway...let us
know what you think. You can find us at:
<http://www.angelfire.com/biz/2ndbeat>
As always,
Thadeus D'Angelo, Camellia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:57:45 -0400
Reply-To: Hpark4@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: We'll miss you Bill
I've always felt a certain kinship with Burroughs although I've never taken
the time to really get into that incredible head of his, beyond his early
books, Junky and Queer and the two major bios. I'm just too linear I
suppose.
We both grew up on the same street, Pershing Ave. in St. Louis. On my twice
yearly visits there I've often driven by his old house, a very nice one. And
he and I both attended John Burroughs school, although I dropped out of that
grooming place for the St. Louis elite after just one year.
Both Burroughs and St. Louis'es other major literary son, Tennessee Williams
(who spent many of his formitive years about 7 blocks from the Burroughs
home) disliked the city. It was a hot, rather conventional kind of place.
Part of WSB's legacicy, I hope, is that the world even in conventional
places like St. Louis, is a little bit more receptive to those who don't want
to trod well worn paths. I think it is a bit easier these days, for a kid in
a place like St. Louis, to swim outside of the mainstream. Just a bit...
Burroughs was born and bred to be a busissman, perhaps a doctor or lawyer.
I'd venture to gress that 95 percent of his schoolmates went on to live
conventional lives in St. Louis and the upper middle class suburbs that track
Highway 40 west of the city.
Burroughs, instead, was a bridge to the future way beyond his time. His
visions, sometimes terrifying, seem more real every day. I will remember him
most for speaking truth to the forces that have given us the 50 year war on
drugs. Burroughs cut through the crap of the anti-drug
police/propiganda/jail "justice system" like no one else -- nobody has even
come close. I don't fully understand Burroughs. I don't think I ever will.
What I do understand is that he was absolutely true to his own vision and
absolutely free of bullshit.
Another gift that William Burroughs gave us was his son Billy. Billy wrote
two fine books, Speed and Kentucky Ham. Like Jan Kerouac, Billy led a too
short and troubled life. Speed, especially, is a very underrated work --
check it out sometime.
Yes, we will miss you Bill.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:54:47 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Meet me in St. Louie
Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> Last night two arrogantly greatfully beaufil tiger lilies burst into bloom in
> front of our house. Our old rescued stray cat, Mr, Buster had one of his
> animal friends (I think young Mr. Skunky) sneak in for dinner. The new
> catfood box was empty.
williams fletch died a few weeks ago. Fletch was the beautiful panther.
i plan to donate a little feed and supplies to a stray cat lover in his
memory. she is a fool for stray cats, can't afford to be but is,
someone who william would have liked hearing about.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:12:32 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <199708030340.UAA07553@hsc.usc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> I saw him once at a theater on market street.
>
> he was performing with John Giornio and Laurie Anderson.
>
> I went to see Burroughs and most I guess went to see Anderson. I hadn't
> heard of her at the time.
>
> I didn't talk to him. But my friend who drove did. he was the type of guy
> who did stuff like that.
>
> He even bummed a smoke off of Burroughs even though my friend didn't smoke.
>
> Afterwatd we walked to the car and all took turns dragging on Burroughs
> unfiltered (Pall Mall was it ?) smoke.
>
> That's about the closest I got to him.
The closest I got were his words on the page, and a couple telephone calls.
Someone must have put a curse on me ("stop writing or your worldview gets
it"), because I had recently obtained his address and had planned a visit
for 16 August; this reminds me of Ginsberg's death, when we planned a
roadtrip to Louisville to see his scheduled 5 April appearance. As soon as
our plans were set he cancelled the show, and the rest is history.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 21:32:40 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
In-Reply-To: <33E47E88.6EBE@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
David,
the Burroughs death is televised by the three domestic TV channel,
i hope that's appreciate by William S. Burroughs, who is in paradise!,
(broadcasting nationwide, meaning audience 20 000 000 of italians),
in primis the "Catholic" channel RAI UNO Corporation from Rome,
that stated Burroughs tragic life & way of Life, Burroughs is/was
the other side of the "American Dream" & latin pietas is the message,
Italy commemorates the countercultural life , 20 millions
of my patriots have seen Burroughs reading in black & white, (his old
face), what's better tribute to the Man! i dunno if this is enuf but
i think its' great! beat are popular alot here & this is immortality,
the tears are rain, when we are facing the death, & a rino or
that black river isnt' as dangerous as the tears 'cuz here WE
CANT' touch on the heaven.
"Sal, where did you find these absolutely wonderful people?
I've never seen anyone like them".
"I found them in the West." --- Jack Kerouac
Rinaldo.
At 07.50 03/08/97 -0500, RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET> wrote:
>Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>>
>> "Something, someone, some spirit was pursuing
>> all of us across the desert of life and was bound to catch us
>> before we reached heaven. Naturally, now that I look back on
>> it, this only death: death will overtake us before heaven. The
>> one thing that we yearn for in our living days, that makes us
>> sigh and groan and undergo sweet nauseas of all kinds, is the
>> remembrance of some lost bliss that was probably experienced
>> in the womb and can only be reproduced (though we hate to
>> admit it) in death." --- Jack Kerouac.
>>
>> At 23.26 02/08/97 -0400, Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM> wrote:
>> >William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
>> >Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
>> >
>> >
>
>"Now there are two routes to immortality. They might be designated as:
>slow down or speed-up, or straight-ahead or detour. Reference aphorisms
>of the Old White Hunter. In the time that you face death directly, you
>are immortal. That's the straight-ahead route. The slow-down detour
>vampire route -- take a little, leave a little, sure, skim a year off a
>thousand citizens, they won't know the difference -- but what happens
>when you run short of citizens, which you will sooner or later? Also,
>speed up route is a kill route, whereas slow-down is a manipulate,
>degrade, humiliate, enslave route.
> So how does one face death head on? ... without flinching and without
>posturing -- which is always to be seen as a form of evasion, runs away,
>like Lord Jim and Francis Macomber, there is hope.
> . . . a well-known and documented schism, something familiar about
that
>figure moving farther and farther away. 'Why! Himself!' Like the song
>say, 'They don't come back, won't come back, once they're gone . . .'"
>p.119-120 William S. Burroughs, My Education: A Book of Dreams.
>
>listening to Lou Reed's "Magic and Loss" cd -- pass through the fire
>right now. As things are going in fates magic circles these days, this
>cd could wear out at any moment.
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 14:54:14 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: stutz@DSL.ORG
On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:12:32 -0400 Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG> writes:
>On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>> I saw him once at a theater on market street.
>>
>> he was performing with John Giornio and Laurie Anderson.
>>
>> I went to see Burroughs and most I guess went to see Anderson. I
>hadn't
>> heard of her at the time.
>>
>> I didn't talk to him. But my friend who drove did. he was the type
>of guy
>> who did stuff like that.
>>
>> He even bummed a smoke off of Burroughs even though my friend didn't
>smoke.
>>
>> Afterwatd we walked to the car and all took turns dragging on
>Burroughs
>> unfiltered (Pall Mall was it ?) smoke.
>>
>> That's about the closest I got to him.
>
>The closest I got were his words on the page, and a couple telephone
>calls.
>Someone must have put a curse on me ("stop writing or your worldview
>gets
>it"), because I had recently obtained his address and had planned a
>visit
>for 16 August; this reminds me of Ginsberg's death, when we planned a
>roadtrip to Louisville to see his scheduled 5 April appearance. As
>soon as
>our plans were set he cancelled the show, and the rest is history.
>
i never got to see either of them, and have been to lawrence numerous
times and had tickets to the chicago ginsberg reading (which was also,
obviously, cancelled).
i suppose this stands as testament to the fact that these men remained
influential and important, _literally_ until their last days (and
beyond). at least they were able to see some of the impact of their
writing. (unlike the kafkas and poes of the world).
burroughs didn't die in obscurity (as he may have had he stayed in
london). he died at a time while people were still excited to hear him
and talk to him. i can only hope he died content (i first typed happy,
but i guess that may be asking too much.)
Brian M. Kirchhoff
howl 420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:19:14 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: We'll miss you Bill
Comments: To: Hpark4@aol.com
Thanks for the post. I'm printing it if you don't mind. Yeah. I will miss his
voice in the most real sense. The "heat" closes in on we who are left. I
needed his outcast voice always. It was powerful, and power is authentic and
not to be cajoled by the powerful.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:31:49 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: OGU
Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com
"Consider the One God Universe: OGU." (TWL, p. 113)
The passage that begins with this sentence is the subject of recent posts
from David Rhaesa & James William Marshall (& perhaps others by now who've
taken up JWM's call for comments, but I want to finish this before I check
out today's mail and am left with no time). It's almost right in the middle
of WSB's TWL, the successor to JK's VOC (sort of, I think) as the subject of
a Beat-L forum. This passage from WSB's late period (published 1987)
contains and is a summation of many of the broader themes of his life & work
that have led up to it (though don't expect what follows to do justice to
this fact). The first 2 paragraphs put both The One God and the creations of
His exclusive Universe in their place- A bored, frustrated God, in a
pathetically inescapable trap of His own creation, has to invent the
oppositional forces that a OGU can't have by definition- nothing can oppose
He who is everywhere and nowhere, knows everything and can't learn anything.
It's not One God IN His Universe, One God IS the Universe. He has to stir
up action to stave off total stasis, like a cosmic game of solitaire. We are
a part of Him, He is a part of us, we are figments of His imagination or is
it the other way around or both? Our suffering through the contrasts and
tensions He's invented to fill His void are a bad joke except for those it is
played on, we in our space-time trap set up by the One God, trapped in and by
Himself. Think of this in the context of the undulating Visions of Cody, and
the discussions it (Beat) Generated among us, especially about meaning
through contrast/dualities. It's all a food chain of victimization with the
ultimate victim & victimizer being the Supreme Being. WSB is a master at
evoking deadpan, lowdown imagery ("He is already fucking everywhere, like
cowshit in Calcutta") applied to a "lofty" subject by an invisible narrator
(whom I always of course picture as the wearily unflappable author himself)
with hypnotically precise language. These paragraphs, and the rest of this
passage, are an example. One of the sentences that links it to Broader
Burroughsian Themes (BBT) is at the beginning of the second paragraph: "The
OGU is a pre-recorded universe of which He is the recorder." WSB has stated,
in interviews & essays, that his cutup works are an attempt to subvert the
pre-recorded universe, "where the only things that are not pre-recorded are
the recordings themselves" & there's "nothing here now but the recordings"
unless, perhaps, we are aware of this situation and try to do something about
it. If he is trying to get beyond the pre-recorded universe through cutups,
it is probably fair to presume that he accepts the existence of such a
universe, and therefore of One God. Or is it? What is he trying to do with
cutups? Beat the One God at His own game, or create and change something for
himself within the unchangeable static creation that God is all of and he is
part of? Turning bored God's cruel joke against Him, or just amusing himself
while being one of the creations and subjects of His amusement? In the
non-cutup context of TWL, is he the one and only God of his imaginative
universe, or just a pre-recorded puppet playing a miniature version of his
creator's game while a pawn in it?
The third paragraph is yet another junk analogy, not to infer that I for one
ever get tired of them. "Junk teaches the user facts of general
validity...", he states in the introduction to JUNKY, his first published
work. Now God Himself is trapped in the junk equation, needing more and more
with less and less results, the "energy" stirred from His stasis running
down. This is about as generally valid a fact as he's ever uncovered.
The fourth paragraph, and last quoted by JWM, seems like a relief, an
antidote to what preceded it, the "Magical Universe, MU" is after all more
plausible than the OGU with its built-in impasse. But as the next sentences
& the rest of the book indicate, many Gods can't offer any more help than
the one God who got us in trouble by creating us in the first place:
"What happened, Osiris? We got famine here."
"Well, you can't win 'em all. Hustling myself."
"Can't you give us immortality?"
"I can get you as far as the Duad. You'll have to make it from there on your
own. Most of them don't. Figure about one in a million. And, biologically
speaking, that's very good odds."
Absolutely no one but WSB could have written the above, it's all there, and
almost worth being in our predicament to be able to read his description of
it. The more I ponder and try to write about this one passage out of so many
in just this one work, the more I realize how much there is to choose from to
quote & discuss, in any order to paraphrase his advise near the end of NAKED
LUNCH. I've run out of time & energy for now to go into my ideas of how the
MU might relate to the "ugly spirit" that took control of WSB on September 6,
1951 in Mexico City ("I think it's time for our William Tell act"), and other
associations that this one passage brought to mind. One of my many favorites
from TWL is at the very end of the book, and is by the way what he reads
during the last song on SEVEN SOULS by Material, THE END OF WORDS. I know
I've said this before, but you're really missing something if you don't
listen to this recording before, during and after reading TWL.
"The old writer couldn't write anymore because he had reached the end of
words, the end of what can be done with words. And then? "British we are,
British we stay." How long can one hang on in Gibraltar, with the tapestries
where mustached riders with scimitars hunt tigers, the ivory balls one inside
the other, bare seams showing, the long tearoom with mirrors on both sides
and the tired fuchsia and rubber plants, the shops selling English marmalade
and Fortnum & Mason's tea...clinging to their Rock like the rock apes,
clinging always to less and less.
In Tangier the Parade Bar is closed. Shadows are falling on the Mountain.
"Hurry up, please. It's time."
For God(s) & mortals, the jig is up. "IT"'s closing in. "Bring on the
comments."
Dizzy & defeated but ready for more,
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:07:08 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: DawnDR@aol.com
In a message dated 97-08-02 23:47:15 EDT, you write:
<< Funny --- only those few lines --- a newscaster identifying him
as an author with no further information and, sad to say, showing no further
interest. That saddens me.
Dawn
>>
We can take comfort in that Bill probably would have seen those lines as
amusing, or ironical. The peckerhead who wrote it, if I get the tone
correctly, would never realize that many, including myself, saw Bill as the
ultimate voice of reason, if not authority....on many things, certainly
communications.
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:00:26 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brian M Kirchhoff wrote:
>
> On Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:12:32 -0400 Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG> writes:
> >On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> >
> >> I saw him once at a theater on market street.
> >>
> >> he was performing with John Giornio and Laurie Anderson.
> >>
> >> I went to see Burroughs and most I guess went to see Anderson. I
> >hadn't
> >> heard of her at the time.
> >>
> >> I didn't talk to him. But my friend who drove did. he was the type
> >of guy
> >> who did stuff like that.
> >>
> >> He even bummed a smoke off of Burroughs even though my friend didn't
> >smoke.
> >>
> >> Afterwatd we walked to the car and all took turns dragging on
> >Burroughs
> >> unfiltered (Pall Mall was it ?) smoke.
> >>
> >> That's about the closest I got to him.
> >
> >The closest I got were his words on the page, and a couple telephone
> >calls.
> >Someone must have put a curse on me ("stop writing or your worldview
> >gets
> >it"), because I had recently obtained his address and had planned a
> >visit
> >for 16 August; this reminds me of Ginsberg's death, when we planned a
> >roadtrip to Louisville to see his scheduled 5 April appearance. As
> >soon as
> >our plans were set he cancelled the show, and the rest is history.
> >
>
> i never got to see either of them, and have been to lawrence numerous
> times and had tickets to the chicago ginsberg reading (which was also,
> obviously, cancelled).
>
> i suppose this stands as testament to the fact that these men remained
> influential and important, _literally_ until their last days (and
> beyond). at least they were able to see some of the impact of their
> writing. (unlike the kafkas and poes of the world).
>
> burroughs didn't die in obscurity (as he may have had he stayed in
> london). he died at a time while people were still excited to hear him
> and talk to him. i can only hope he died content (i first typed happy,
> but i guess that may be asking too much.)
>
> Brian M. Kirchhoff
> howl 420@juno.com
>
> "I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
> -Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
i am sure that william was happy.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 16:05:19 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Meet me in St. Louie
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
>
> Yeah it is always the ones who can't afford to be. Compassion and cash rarely
> coincide for all the cats.
> I hope James is doing well. If he needs help, I can drive out. I haven't
> tried to reach because I imagine he's too busy.
> cp
he says he has to stay strong until all the details are set, but i
thought god, he stayed strong setting williams details till william was
productive, creative and happy , william was sure blessed in him. he
does seem busy. i will give him your words and i am printing off the
letters and notes that have been on the list ( a few exceptions) and
leaving them on williams porch with some flowers.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:14:11 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Alex Howard wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, Jeffrey Weinberg wrote:
>
> > William Burroughs Died at the age of 83 today.
> > Cause of death according to Boston news was a heart attack.
> >
>
> This is quite possibly the shittiest year of my life. Hunke, Jan, and
> George Burns were just last year. Ginsberg, then Robert Mitchum and
> Jimmy Stewart. Now Old Bull. I've no heroes left.
>
> ------------------
> Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
> University
> kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
> http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
Alex:
Today, you must become your own hero. It happens all the time,
unfortunately.
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:25:58 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: OGU
Comments: To: SSASN@aol.com
Thanks for the post ;I printed it to study. Lots of great lines. I sent B an
elaborate diagram and text on Osiris about the time he was writing TWL. I
like the direct dialogue. A lot of it is formal or sacred knowledge put in
his Jack Black idiom. Do you have ,You Can't Win? I also like the "...stir
up action .." Is the "cosmic game of solitaire" yours or B's? I like your
label of "deapan, lowdown imagery" Can I use that sometime? B loved that sort
of thing.. Out of Jack Black and a life of sleeze to be sure. The Patti
Smith, Lou Reed and Jim (lizard skin) Morrison branch of the outfit. Once at
dinner with B I was reading him an article on the hallucinogenic properties
in the lizard skin found in Australia. He chuckled and turned it into a
Burroughsian commenary with kids with switchblades cutting skins off lizards
and selling them on streetcorners.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:34:04 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: St Louis
MIME-Version: 1.0
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St. Louis
Cardinals,
Dizzy & Stan,
Gas house gangs.
Arches,
gateway to
golden western lands.
Williams
Stella Stanley
glass amimal zoos.
WSB
Burroughs calculators
Gateway Western Minds
Show
Me show
Me show me.
Gone
Gone gone
Gone gone gone.
And that was all she said to me.
-
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:37:32 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: caffine and drugs
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Hey for all the antidrug forces, check this out. More to follow:
>Caffeine is the only drug that is widely added to the >food
supply, said Michael Jacobson, executive
>director of the CPSI (M. Triandafellos/ABCNEWS.com)
Well, what about this, [see next post]
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:48:04 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: caffine
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While reading the article on WSB, a caffine article caught my eye. The
"final" word on the full effects of caffine are not in, but the fact is
that it is a drug that is addictive. And we let our children drink it
right of the shelf. None of them even need an id to purchase it. Now,
maybe now, this drug will be regulated too! Thank heavens we have a
goverment to protect us. ;-) The full article from ABC News is as
follows:
By Tristanne L. Walliser
ABCNEWS.com
Einstein loved it. Freud sipped cups
constantly. And Sartre was a
scrupulous connoisseur.
Latter-day coffee fiends might sooner cry
death before decaf, but a study by the
Center for Science in the Public Interest
suggests that America should wake up and
pay more attention to its caffeine-drinking
habits.
CSPI, along with more than three dozen
scientists and consumer groups, is
urging the
Food and Drug Administration to more
carefully label food with caffeine content.
Citing problems like miscarriages,
insomnia and
anxiety, the CSPI
has prepared a
70-page petition,
gathered from 40
scientific studies,
claiming that
consumers have a
right to know how
much caffeine is
added by
manufacturers to
soft drinks, ice
cream and yogurt.
Caffeine is the
only drug that is widely added to the food
supply, said Michael Jacobson, executive
director of the CSPI. Knowing the caffeine
content is important to many people,
especially women who are and might become
pregnant.
Level Varies Widely
The amount of caffeine in foods varies
widely. A cup of Dannon coffee yogurt, for
example, has as much caffeine as a can of
Coca-Cola. A Sunkist Orange Soda has
more caffeine than a can of Pepsi. And a cup
of Starbucks coffee ice cream has as much
caffeine as half a cup of coffee.
U.S. food manufacturers say there is no
scientific evidence that moderate
consumption of caffeine causes health risks.
We believe the majority of consumers
know which products contain naturally
occurring caffeine, the National Food
Processors Association, a trade group
representing the $430 billion
food-processing
industry, said in a statement.
The FDA already requires food labels to
say whether caffeine has been added to
foods but not how much.
In the 1970s, spurred by the CSPI, the
FDA issued an advisory warning that
pregnant women should avoid foods
containing caffeine.
For Most, Habit OK
It s always good to know what you are
eating and the content of foods, especially
foods with any special effect, noted Dr.
Meir Stampfer, a researcher at Harvard
Medical School, who has looked at the
possible links between heart disease and
caffeine.
However, researchers believe there is no
cause for alarm.
It is reasonable for manufacturers to
declare caffeine content, because some
people are inordinately affected,
said Ichiro
Kawachi, a professor of medicine at Brigham
and Women s Hospital and a researcher at
Harvard Medical School.
However all research points to the fact
that there are no long-term serious health
effects. Even with six cups of coffee a day,
there is no increased suggestion of risk for
those people who enjoy coffee, there is no
reason to quit.
Despite persistent rumors in the 70s and
80s that gave coffee a bad reputation,
studies now show that drinking coffee does
not increase risk of heart attack, heart
disease or cancer.
However, pregnant women are still
advised not to drink caffeine. It is also
suspected of increasing the risk of
osteoporosis and infertility in women.
Highly Caffeinated Kids
Another area of concern raised today is
children s consumption of caffeine
Because of the mildly addictive drug,
parents may want to limit their children s
consumption of it, advises Roland
Griffiths,
a professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine.
In terms of the research, there is not
much to suggest that caffeine has serious
health effect on children, said Kawachi.
The effects are more likely to be
behavioral.
Kids may not want to go to bed at night. But
there are no serious risks.
Coffee and Mortality
Research shows that coffee drinkers may, in
fact, have a lower risk of mortality.
Kawachi cites two connections. One,
coffee drinkers have half as many
motor-vehicle accidents as non coffee
drinkers. Two, the suicide rate among coffee
drinkers is one-third that of non coffee
drinkers. Coffee is known to improve
people s moods.
So, for the moment, coffee-drinkers can
continue sipping and pouring, with
a spoonful of caution.
U.S. NEWS
ABCNEWS.com
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:05:09 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: WEB on New York Times
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I am going out surfing for WSB stories. The first stop is the nytimes
newmorality speak and WSB is on the cover of the cybertimes.
http://www.nytimes.com/
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:15:41 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS 1914-1997
Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com
Fellow Beat-L members:
I avoided looking at today's mail until I had written a post I had been
planning. For several hours I wrote about a passage in THE WESTERN LANDS, my
admiration and respect for WSB higher than ever, without realizing that he
had just DIED. Now I am in a state of shock and sadness that I can't, I'm
afraid, "write my way out of" as he would have said. It's started to thunder
& rain, an appropriate projection of my inner condition. My post ended with
a suggestion for another passage to discuss, at the very END of TWL, where he
writes that the writer has "REACHED THE END OF WORDS". Was I guided by some
serendipity? As you all know, WSB was my favorite among all the Beats, of
all writers of all time for that matter. The fact that he is immortal
through his works, and that probably their highest significance will unfold
prophetically in the future, does not help assuage the "hit with a ton of
bricks" effect of finding out that he died. I'm not one of the uninhibitedly
imaginative, emotional writers on this list, I usually and contentedly
confine my contributions to commentary and non-fictional anecdotes. But I
don't mind telling you how utterly broken-hearted I feel, complete with a
lump in my throat and tears welling in my eyes. Now I recall how one of you
had suggested reading a WSB work to follow up VOC, to not skip him over
because he hadn't died yet like JK- we barely got one foot in when the
devastating news came.
It may seem strange to mourn so emotionally someone who was so deadpan, and
for whom death was no stranger, he was surrounded by the ghosts of so many
who preceded him, including of course his common-law wife who died
accidentally by his hand, and his son by her who destroyed himself.
Considering his legendary life, it is a wonder that he lived to such a ripe
old age- 83. But I somehow thought he'd live longer, I was not prepared for
this. He himself, in a recent New York Times article, said that he expected
to live into his 90's. Why am I so sad?
One reason certainly is that I had the privelege and pleasure of personally
meeting and visiting with him in February of 1995. Now more than ever, as
you can imagine, I'm glad I did. He exuded warmth and kindness, at the
center of it all was a "heart of tenderness" as Allen Ginsberg (whos death we
are still reeling from) said. I felt this for myself. Many have mistaken
some of the horrific images and people in his works with HIM, just as JK was
mistaken for NC. As I learned from extensive study of most everything by and
about him that I am aware of, and as others who knew him have stated, he was
one of the good guys, a Johnson as he would have put it. He was never out
just to shock us as an end in itself, or revel in destructive nihilism. In
the manner of Jonathan Swift, his tactics were meant to draw attention to and
help reverse the evil forces he saw far more clearly than others- he was
brave, full of "lonely courage" again as AG once said, there's no one I can
think of who was so unafraid to live the way he wanted and express himself
with absolutely no compromise. His achievement is so broad and many-faceted
that no one grieving post like this can even begin to encompass it. His
technical innovations, the profound and prophetic content of his One Long
Work, the clarity and artistry of his language (let's not forget he was
solidly grounded through his Harvard education and his vast reading and
experience, he earned and arrived at his level), the incomparable and
inimitable mixture of humor and wisdom, will keep aficianados like us busy
for as long as there is a human race to which his work relates. This is the
darkest hour in Beat history. As far as I'm concerned, he was the One
Indispensable Figure without whom the whole subject of this List, and
therefore this List itself, would not exist. He was older than, and a mentor
to, all of the other major figures, as they all acknowledged. His influence
extends far beyond serious students of his works into the popular culture and
society as a whole. Those who he influenced and who in turn have had a major
impact on the world, from other authors to musicians and those in many other
capacities, are legion, too numerous to mention here. But I'm preaching to
the choir.
I am compelled to recite a brief biography, as much for my own sake as anyone
else's, to begin to comprehend that the book is closed, there will be no
further chapters. A tree is best measured when it is down, and a Giant has
fallen.
William Seward Burroughs was born on February 5, 1914 in St. Louis, Missouri.
He was the grandson and namesake of the man who invented the adding machine
and started the Burroughs Corporation. His parents were not wealthy heirs as
some, including JK, have thought, he was modestly at least partly supported
through his adventures up to the publication of Naked Lunch by an allowance
they sent him from the proceeds of their little gift shop, Cobblestone
Gardens. After an alienated childhood that included a stint at the Los
Alamos Ranch School, later the site of the first atomic explosion, he
attended Harvard, graduating in 1936 with a major in English Literature. He
began drifting, taking more courses, traveling including to Vienna where he
married a woman as a favor to help her leave the country on the heels of the
Nazis. He was drafted but soon discharged from the army during WWII. During
the war, he was able to get many interesting jobs while so many were away,
including bartender, exterminator, even private detective. All of these
experiences would show up in his works. While a sometime student and
hanger-outer in the environs of Columbia University, he met Allen Ginsberg,
Jack Kerouac, Herbert Huncke, Lucien Carr and others, including Joan Vollmer
Adams, who formed the nucleus of what would come to be called the Beat
Generation. Also at this time, "around 1944 or 1945", he tried junk, in the
form of a morphine syrette, for the first time. He drifted into this by
default for lack of interest in other directions, and into a common-law
marriage with Joan even though he was a homosexual. Unlike such Beat
characters as Neal Cassady, who you might say looked for trouble, Burroughs
casually let himself get into situations that turned nightmarish, but also
provided the lessons, the inspiration, exacted the DUES from which his works
would emerge. I will continue this rambling biographical survey later.
I am emotionally and physically shaken by the dreadful news. He was so
transcendent, but he knew the score on the ground more than anyone. Can he
really have died? He came so close to decoding, even subverting, the
universe. Well, as he and his late collaborator Brion Gysin said, WE ARE
HERE TO GO. He has gone, and we are left here for now to benefit from, enjoy
and be warned by what he learned and turned into such artistry. It's
strange, I can't think of a single particular WSB quote right now to end
with, there are so many of them, many of his works are worth quoting from
cover to cover. A perceptive observation by JK will have to suffice for now:
"It would take all night to tell about Old Bull Lee (WSB); let's just say
now, he was a teacher, and it may be said that he had every right to teach
because he spent all his time learning; and the things he learned were what
he considered to be and called "the facts of life," which he learned not only
out of necessity but because he wanted to."
from ON THE ROAD, pg. 119
Arthur S. Nusbaum
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:17:16 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: caffeine
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>Coffee and Mortality
> Research shows that coffee drinkers may, in
> fact, have a lower risk of mortality.
Read your post after my fifth beer today and read it as:
Coffee and Morality
Research shows that coffee drinkers may, in
fact, have a lower risk of morality.
Then realised mortality rather than morality.
In any event, morality or mortality, I think I should go back to drinking
coffee throughout the day instead of just limiting it to morning hours as
I've been doing for last year or so.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:22:44 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: USA Today
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USA Today has a different article than those I have seen here or on
other sites. The direct url is:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nds2.htm
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:27:30 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Washington Post
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I have not read the article yet, but right now, there is a sight worthy
of Bull on the Washington Post site. The link to the article on WSB is
just below a link about a beheading, body burning, murder. It is very
spooky.
http://www.washingtonPost.com/wp-srv/digest/digest.htm
Peace
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:57:57 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: CNN
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CNN has a link to a QuickTime movie scene from "Drugstore Cowboy" in its
article.
Check it out if you want at:
http://cnn.com/US/9708/02/burroughs.ap/
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:02:01 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: CNN site II
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The CNN site has some other good links on it. Levi's site is one that
was linked at the bottom of the page. It may not be the best article,
but it will allow you to interact the best.
http://cnn.com/US/9708/02/burroughs.ap/
Peace,
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 20:38:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Tribute radio from Burlington Vermont by Tuna
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It will be interesting to see what kind of salute (and it will be a
salute!!!) Tuna puts together for his show out of Burlington. Tuna
lived in Lawrence Kansas in the late 1970s and moved on to Burlington.
He has been the faculty advisor to the student radio station there for
years. According to him this responsibility mainly means he gets to do
his own radio show. He was instrumental in the development of the
Reggae festivals up in those parts. When he does a send-off for the
spaceman it will be a send-off with industrial fireworks. I've
requested a tape of the show. I imagine i'll get one.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
Alfred C. Snider wrote:
>
> WOW! WHAT A BUMMER! He's one of my favorite poets! I will do a salute show
> to him this next Wed on the radio.
>
> Tuna
>
> >Alfred C. Snider wrote:
> >>
> >> People have asked me to continue posting news as I did last year.
> >
> >To any interested, William S. Burroughs died of a heart attack
> >yesterday.
> >
> >david rhaesa
> >salina, Kansas
>
> Alfred Charles Snider -- "Tuna"
> Edwin W. Lawrence Professor of Forensics, University of Vermont
> Mail: Box 54225, UVM, Burlington, VT 05405-4225
> Phone: 802-656-0097, Fax: 802-656-4275
> +++++
> President, Cross Examination Debate Association 1997-98
> http://debate.uvm.edu/ceda.html
> +++++
> DEBATE CENTRAL: Debate's Biggest Website
> http://debate.uvm.edu/
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:08:27 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS 1914-1997
Comments: To: SSASN@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Arthur Nusbaum wrote:
> I am emotionally and physically shaken by the dreadful news. He was so
> transcendent, but he knew the score on the ground more than anyone.
> Can he
> really have died? He came so close to decoding, even subverting, the
> universe. Well, as he and his late collaborator Brion Gysin said, WE
> ARE
> HERE TO GO. He has gone, and we are left here for now to benefit from,
> enjoy
> and be warned by what he learned and turned into such artistry.
Arthur,
I understand the depth of your grief and know that nothing can relieve
the pain and how the only thing to do is, in fact, write your way out of
it with others here who share and understand those same feelings. I feel
great sadness that WSB has died, and I know that for you the enormity of
the pain is much the same as it was for me when I learned that Allen
Ginsberg had died. I felt as though the universe had shuddered and left
a gaping hole which can never be filled. I still ask myself constantly
why I continue to feel such grief for a man I had never even met but who
continues to touch the very center of my being. You were so lucky that
you got to meet the man. I know that for many on this list, especially
you, David, Patricia, and lots of others this is a very dark hour indeed.
But as you write, "...we are left here for now to benefit from, enjoy
and be warned by what he learned and turned into such artistry." After I
had read more of Kerouac, I intended to begin my pursuit of the knowledge
imparted by WSB by tackling an extensive reading his works. I hope that
you, as well as the others on this list will guide me in this process,
for WSB will continue to live in the immortality of his words. I know
that some have been reading The Western Lands as a follow-up to VOC. I
hesitated to do that, thinking that I wanted to begin with something
earlier like Naked Lunch. I think that we should all choose now to read
as a group, a particular Burroughs' work (whatever the most people think
is best), and that we should do it as a way of celebrating his life.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 19:30:10 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: The News ...
Comments: To: bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
Comments: cc: karmacoupe@aol.com, xian@netcom.com, mal@emf.net,
digaman@hotwired.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Bizarre. I spent last night at a Beat/post-Beat
freeform poetry celebration at the Nuyorican Poetry
Cafe in the East Village, where along with other
great performances by David Amram, Brian Hassett,
Frank Messina, Miguel Algarin and others, Ron Whitehead
read his poem for Burroughs, "Calling All Toads". None
of us in the room knew that Burroughs had died just a
few hours before.
I know Ron is on the road today, and he must be reeling
from the news (also thinking of Charles Plymell, James
G., David Ohle, Patricia Elliot and other friends of Bill
who must be suffering today) ... so I hope Ron doesn't
mind if I post his poem here for him. It says what I
would say much better than I would if I tried.
CALLING ALL TOADS
-----------------
by Ron Whitehead
Hummm
Hummm
Hummm
Hummm
Hummm
Hummm
Hummm
Hummm
Calling the toads
Calling the toads
We shall come rejoicing
Calling the toads
one step out the door off the step
goin down swingin
in a peyote amphetamine benzedrine
dream
I'm five years old I am the messenger holdin
William Burroughs' Bill Burroughs'
Old Bull Lee's hand
holdin Bill's hand on some lonely
godforsakinuppermiddleclassSt.Louisstreet
and we're hummin we're hummin
we're hummin in tones
we're hummin in tones
callin the toads
oh yeah we're callin the toads
Bill's eyes twinklin glitterin
a devilish grin crackin the corners
of his mouth and I'm lookin him
right smack in the eyes
deep in the eyes I'm readin
his heroined heart yes I'm readin his old heart
but it ain't the story I expected
as we move this way and that
raisin and lowerin out heads our voices
callin the toads
and here they come
marchin high and low from
under the steps from under
the shrooms of the front yard
from round the corner of the house
fallin from the trees
rainin down here come the toads
all sizes and shapes all swingin
and swayin and dancin that
magic Burroughs Beat
yes here come the toads singin
and swayin and swingin their hips
now standin all round us
hundreds thousands of toads
eyes bulgin tongues stickin out hard
dancin a strange happy vulgar rhythmed
dance for Burroughs and me
yes Burroughs yes Burroughs
yes Burroughs I see his heart
and I know his secret
a secret no one has discovered
til now but I'll never tell
never reveal as I witness
this sacred scene this holy ceremony
this gathering
this universal song and dance
I witness through the eyes the heart
of William S. Burroughs
King of the Toads
Calling the toads
Calling the toads
We shall come rejoicing
Calling the toads
hummmm
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
| |
| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
| -- Jack Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:23:20 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: (Fwd) Kerouac's Seymour..
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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hello, thought the thread was dead, geuss not...
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 03:21:20 +0500 (GMT+0500)
From: Sundeep Dougal <holden@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in>
Subject: Kerouac's Seymour..
To: Church of Salinger <bananafish@lists.nyu.edu>
Reply-to: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
Well, this hardly has any JDS content but a cusrsory search for
"seymour;wyse" on altavista threw up one hit that I thought some of you
may find of some interest considering that a lot of _names_ figure here
and since someof the jazz men mentioned happen to be personal favourites,
I thought I'd append it here:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Ann Charters' compilation, A Bibliography of Works By Jack Kerouac,
notes a description by John Clellon Holmes on the making of the
recordings:
...Seymour Wyse [Wise], an old friend of Jack's from Horace Mann
days, with whom he shared an interest in jazz, was working (in
1949-50) in a record shop on Eighth Street, west of Sixth, owned by
another old friend, Jerry Newman, who in early 1940 had made a
classic series of records up at Minton's in Harlem, featuring the
work of Charlie Christian and the then almost unknown Thelonius
Monk, Dizzie Gillespie, Kennie Clarke, and others who came to
prominence in the bop revolt a few years later... Anyhow, my then
brother-in-law had left in my apartment one of those massive,
ungainly and also unreliable recording machines of the late 40's,
weighing over one hundred pounds with a cutting arm that had the
heft of a good-size hammer. All of us, then, were a bop-mad,
indefatigable, stone-broke, and full (we imagined) of ravishing
jazz-ideas. One night, Seymour brought to a party of mine several
demonstration discs, only one side of which had been used, and,
pleasantly mulled on beer, which in those days we always bought in
enormous quart bottles, and never more than four at a time, after
which someone was delegated to go down to the deli below and
purchase more. Soon I got Jack to read the two slight selections
from Town and City (both of which were considerably thinned in the
published version), after which our exuberance quickly outran any
such "literary" projects, and we got down to making records of
ourselves, riffing over recorded solos. One of our passions just
then was the work of pianist Lennie Tristano, who was, perhaps, the
most avant-garde of the younger jazzmen of that year, and who, just
a month before, had recorded, the first attempt at total, freeform,
atonal improvisation, a record called "Intuition", not yet
released, but played occaisionally by Symphony Sid on his all-night
radio show. We decided to attempt a similar thing, and the "Three
Tools" were born, flourished briefly, and passed away. We made
other records, none of which was really successful, and on other
nights, with other discs that Seymour brought, I managed to get
Ginsberg recorded, reading his then tightly-metaphysical-Yeats-like
poems, and Jack doing selections from Hamlet, which he felt he
could interpret best while a little muddled on beer, eschewing too
much gravity, and adopting a musing, and sometimes amusing, tone...
A few months later, my brother-in-law reclaimed his equipment, and
the early attempt to establish Caedmon Records came to an end.
When, some years afterwards, I got a tape recorder, I taped a long
conversations with Jack and Allen and Peter, and joint, giggling
poetry readings, and even late-night confessionals. All these
tapes, lamentably, are now lost.
[Charters, Ann. A Bibliography of Works By Jack Kerouac. New
York:Phoenix Bookshop (1967): 109-110.]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obsalinger: If JDS could have all those cracks at "Dharma Bums" and so
on, it shouldn't really be surprising to find that Kerouac did read
JDS. Considering Langusta's recent post, obviously he did --or had
atleast made the acquaintence of _the_ Seymour Glass.
Besides, I went back to the Warren French book I have on JDS
(apparently he also did one on Kerouac) and found that the Glass
chronicles have been compared to Kerouac's projected Duluoz Legend. Now
the only Kerouacs I think I've read is Dharma Bums ( and perhaps some
parts of On the Road, and have even the chronology all mixed up..) but
I believe Kerouac did not live long enough to rework his stories into a
coordinated whole, whereas one hopes JDS has...Like some on the list
(Malcs once said that he hopes for "Walt & Waker") my wish would be
ofcourse to have a complete annotated "Buddy Glass" Though I would
rather lay my money on a blank sheet of paper enclosed by way of
explanation. Uh, without the cigar end, ofcourse.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sundeep Dougal (Sonny, to friends) Holden Caulfield, New Delhi, INDIA
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:24:36 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Kerouac's Seymour..
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word has gotten around
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 16:00:45 -0600 (MDT)
From: WILL HOCHMAN <hochman@uscolo.edu>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's Seymour..
To: Church of Salinger <bananafish@lists.nyu.edu>
Reply-to: bananafish@lists.nyu.edu
ahh sonny, you've got your beat on the beat...sad to learn today of the
death of William Bouroughs...been reading some of Allen Ginsberg's
journals and poems lately so your post was just about perfect, thanks,
will
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 22:28:41 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: more imaginings of the Godfather of the Johnson Family
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>From Mississippi - david rhaesa - 1992
anyway I introduced to mike the backcracker and Allen asked for some
networking and they discussed Ouji borads and Rikki and rebirthing karma
darma Buddah shit and Mike got out the Tibetan bowl and Jack said he=92d
heard of that from a monk in Leary=92s head on LSD and Burroughs sat ther=
e
silent stone
silent stone
silent stone
and Burroughs read the Sermon on the Mount while Sinead O=92Connor sang
Silent Night, Holy Night and the Carpenters sang We=92ve Only Just Begun
and Burroughs said he wanted to force feed Karen Carpenter some buffalo
meat he=92d shot when hunting with Black Elk in Outer Mongolia. he said
he was hunting for Ghenghis Kahn but settled for a Buffalo and the White
Buffalo and the Polar Bear went with him to stare down Stalin=20
and Stalin turned over in red square. Stalin did cucking cartwheels in
red square and Genghis Kahn and Mao watched grinning like a Cheshiere
cat from across the borderline....Nicholson grinned from across the
border sitting by the Laker bench and Burroughs climbed inside his
typewriter and went back to Kansas for a minute or two just to check the
burning house and then he returned to the dormitory recited some
thoughts about Hitler and Gandhi and dictators and Silent Night played
in the background like Simon and Garfunkel on the six o=92clock news and
the electrical circuitry in the center fried from the inside out and
then was repaired by ghosts a few days later.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:22:42 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> David,
>
> the Burroughs death is televised by the three domestic TV channel,
> i hope that's appreciate by William S. Burroughs, who is in paradise!,
> (broadcasting nationwide, meaning audience 20 000 000 of italians),
> in primis the "Catholic" channel RAI UNO Corporation from Rome,
> that stated Burroughs tragic life & way of Life, Burroughs is/was
> the other side of the "American Dream" & latin pietas is the message,
>
rinaldo, i just want to let you know that i really appreciate the
quality of your posts. your are a dear and knowing man.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 00:48:30 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: wsb
Mime-Version: 1.0
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hi folks,
if it makes any kind of difference, I work in a book store and
ever since i started the job (2 months ago) i've been bugging my manager
to order beat books because we have customers who buy all the time. With
Burrough's death i'm sure we'll be flooded with copies of Naked Lunch.
While looking through the store's database i was trying to order a copy
of "Algebra of Need" but its out of print. Does anyone know how to get a
copy or know what it's about? I know it contains essays analysing
Burrough's stories.
thanks,
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:07:04 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: The News
MIME-Version: 1.0
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He always knew. "A writer's will is the winds of dead calm in The Western
Lands." I heard today of Burroughs's final journey into The Land of the
Dead. If I had a God to pray to, I'd pray Burroughs makes it across the
Duad. Walk well in The Western Lands William S. Burroughs.
Neil Hennessy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:36:47 -0400
Reply-To: Corduroy <corduroy@earthlink.net>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Corduroy <corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Beat Generation Writer Burroughs Dead at 83
Comments: To: The Bohemian Mailing List <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
Comments: cc: Wayne Head <Wayne.Head@entex.com>,
Steve Silberman <digaman@hotwired.com>,
SealoveX@aol.com, Lee Ranaldo <Eyemote@aol.com>,
"John S. Hall" <JOHNSHALL@aol.com>,
John Ritter <John_Ritter@amdahl.com>,
Jennifer Kao <ambiente@earthlink.net>,
Jeffrey Michael Richards <jmricha1@midway.uchicago.edu>,
Jeff Barsalou <s007jpb@discover.wright.edu>,
Jack Bowman <mmbowman@bright.net>, GPS <zero@dircon.co.uk>,
Denny Russell <s002dbr@discover.wright.edu>,
Dan Levy <danlevy@panix.com>,
CRKSBOYE23@aol.com, Bob Holman <MouthMight@aol.com>,
blcr@web.net, Bil Brown <bil@orca.sitesonthe.net>
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LAWRENCE, Kans. (Reuters Limited) - Beat generation writer William S.
Burroughs, the counterculture author best known for the novel "Naked
Lunch" based on his experiences as a drug addict, died Saturday at the
age of 83.
So the news comes about that yet another hero comes to pass. First Leary,
followed
by Ginsberg, a short time on the edge of our seats with Dylan, and now
Burroughs.
Ironically, as a student and a member of a sub-culture of coffeehouse
pseudo-
intellectuals (all with Bukowski hanging out their backpockets) I have
witnessed
a resurgence of worship of these icons, only to witness the demise of the
idols a
short while later. I can only assume that many of you offer some sympathy
for
some of not all of the writers who have left our world recently, and with
this I
invite you to a few virtual shrines available on the 'net.
The Last Words of Dr. Benway
http://www.levity.com/corduroy/burroughs
Constructed in record time immediatly after the news of Burroughs' death,
The Last
Words contains interviews, biographies, samples, links, and bibliographies
pertaining
to the works of William Seward Burroughs. As it was with Ginsberg, many
memorial
sites are sure to appear, as well as articles from slower but more in-depth
news
sources, all of which should appear on The Last Words in time. Also, as it
was with
Ginsberg, the Last Words of Dr. Benway has a special section for reader
comments,
good-byes, thank-yous, and even a little slander if your heart so desires.
Ashes & Blues
http://www.levity.com/corduroy/ginsberg
Mentioned in the paragraph, this memorial site is dedicated to the Life and
Times of
Allen Ginsberg. If The Last Words wouldn't have taken up the evening as it
so required,
the official site for Jerry Aronson's The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg
would have
officially met the web. Being that there is now an obvious delay, the video
site should
appear shortly. Please check back before the week is out for a glimpse at
the video,
including highlights, quotes, and ordering information.
The Official Bob Dylan Website
http://www.bobdylan.com/
Currently the site only holds a little about his 41st album, but worth the
click to your
listof addresses nonetheless. Word has it that many talented people are
involved
with the site in one way or another-- two of which being Levi Asher of
Literary Kicks,
and myself, Christopher Ritter of Bohemian Ink (and all sites listed above).
(cR) Bohemian
Ink http://www.levity.com/corduroy/
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 01:42:44 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: crib of ballard, burroughs, joyce
Mime-Version: 1.0
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cribbed from the patti smith list (thanx fiona w.):
-=-=-=-
J. G. Ballard called him "the first mythographer of the mid-twentieth
century, and the lineal successor to James Joyce, to whom he bears
more than a passing resemblance--exile, publication in Paris,
undeserved notoriety as a pornographer, and an absolute dedication to
the Word . . . His novels are the first definitive portrait of the
inner landscape of our mid-century, using its unique language and
manipulative techniques, its own fantasies and nightmares."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 11:10:55 +0000
Reply-To: m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sk312@pophost.city.ac.uk>
From: Daniel Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>
Subject: OFF - Calling Alan Reese
Apologies to all for off topic.
Alan Reese are you there? I have lost your address. please mail me
off list.
Daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 06:54:25 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Report from TUNA about radio
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A few New Englanders had wanted more details.
Tuna's radio salute will be Wednesday 1:30 - 3:30 at 90.1 on your radio
dial (do you still say dial these days?) He is up and listening to
stuff this morning - a salute percolating in his former east lawrence
brain.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:20:00 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: William Burroughs Is Dead
Comments: To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@juno.com>
In-Reply-To: <19970803.145415.3262.18.howl420@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 3 Aug 1997, Brian M Kirchhoff wrote:
> i suppose this stands as testament to the fact that these men remained
> influential and important, _literally_ until their last days (and
> beyond). at least they were able to see some of the impact of their
> writing. (unlike the kafkas and poes of the world).
>
> burroughs didn't die in obscurity (as he may have had he stayed in
> london). he died at a time while people were still excited to hear him
> and talk to him. i can only hope he died content (i first typed happy,
> but i guess that may be asking too much.)
i can only speculate, but my impression is that his last years were quite
content. i think of him as a "writer's writer" in the role model way i think
of sonic youth -- unsullied in their art, recognized in their time, famous
yet able to lead reasonably happy, somewhat private lives. bill and allen
had good lives, i think.
i feel like having witnessed the passing of wordsworth and coleridge (only
our beats were better). i mean, there was something very powerful about
them, they were shamans and warriors and now, the idea of life without them
-- though inevitable and good and natural -- is downright unsettling.
everything outside my window is still the same today. why?
"there is nobody left
to
come to in my bones
oh lord jesus
i feel so
alone"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:36:28 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the real story behind "beat"
In a message dated 97-08-02 12:21:00 EDT, SLPrdise@AOL.COM (MiKe KaNe)
writes:
<< i have transcripts from a 1962
senate hearing in which jack lobbied for beet (beat) farmers to receive a
government stipend to keep the beet industry >>
I believe that it was the same hearing where Popeye was lobbying for yams.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:06:01 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Last Time I Committed Suicide (review)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970804101218.26580C-100000@devel.nacs.net>
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(Found this review on CNN's database today...RJW)
Letter to Kerouac provides thin
basis for 'Suicide'
July 10, 1997
Web posted at: 11:06 a.m. EDT (1506 GMT)
From Reviewer Paul Tatara
(CNN) -- I've often said that there's a great
movie to be made about the Beat Generation
writers of the early 1950s. Guys like Allen
Ginsberg, William Burroughs, and Jack
Kerouac have always been more fascinating
to me as people than they are as writers. You
have to suspect that their free-falling
lifestyles would make for some prime
entertainment ... if you could just capture
their pharmaceutically speeding energy
without making the actors look like fools.
"Naked Lunch" is probably half that great
movie, and half David Cronenberg getting
off on being one sick puppy. Writer-director
Stephen Kay's "The Last Time I
Committed Suicide" isn't even that lucky,
with the period details and the wonderful,
driving music (from geniuses like Charlie
Parker, Miles Davis, and Charles Mingus)
being the most enjoyable aspects of the whole
production.
The story is based on a letter that was sent
by Neal Cassady to Jack Kerouac in the
late 1940s, when Cassady was working at a
Goodyear tire factory in Denver.
Cassady is the inspiration for Kerouac's
trailblazing novel, "On the Road," and later
drove the bus for Ken Kesey and the Merry
Pranksters during their highly misguided
(and unproductive) early-'60s LSD
experiments.
By all accounts Cassady was a drug- and
alcohol-exposed live wire, John Belushi
before there was really a market for someone
like John Belushi. You wouldn't know
this from the way Thomas Jane portrays him in
"The Last Time I Committed
Suicide," though. Here, he seems more like a
sexually aggressive Dennis the
Menace, with his drinking limited to your
average Friday night intake of Miller High
Life and his more socially questionable
pill-popping all but non-existent.
As might immediately be expected from a movie
inspired by what was stuffed into an
envelope, the story is mighty thin. Cassady
works at the tire shop, and has a
girlfriend, Joan (Claire Forlani), who
inexplicably tries to kill herself one night.
While Joan is recuperating in the hospital,
Neal thoughtfully takes up with a
16-year-old hellcat named Cherry Mary
(Gretchen Mol, a live wire of a completely
different sort.) He also hangs out at the
pool hall with a much older buddy named
Harry (pseudo-actor Keanu Reeves). That is
all ye need to know. The rest is
supplied in "hey man" voice-overs by Cassady.
I've always been partial to Burroughs over
Kerouac and the far less prolific
Cassady. Even in his younger days, Burroughs
looked and sounded like death
warmed over, the Black Angel in a business
suit. He's always seemed vaguely
embarrassed by the course his life took after
he started in on the drug experiments,
but Kerouac was a little too self-satisfied,
pretending that fat, drunk and sitting on
his mother's couch is where his "vision" was
always leading him. That's not to say
that there wasn't a ton of angst involved,
but it was nothing that a couple of tall cold
ones couldn't settle.
Unfortunately, Cassady's voice-over in the
movie smacks of Kerouac's
bebop-inspired riffing. Though I know the
passage of time has blunted this stuff,
you can't help (during some of the more
purple-prosey moments) envisioning the
narrator as a cartoon tomcat wearing a
turtleneck, beret, and a pair of Ray-Bans.
Bongos optional.
Any screenwriter will tell you that
voice-over can be a highly problematic device
when writing a script -- too much and you're
being redundant, too little and what's
the point of using it? Kay gets the quantity
right, but Cassady's spelling out of every
plot point often seems like nothing more than
a springboard into what is supposed to
be a visual representation of the Beats'
fragmented poetry.
This is a big, big mistake. Kay drives
himself into a tizzy trying to make the leap
from jabbering language to jabbering visuals,
a transition that's destined to look
rather desperate. You name it and he throws
it into the mix -- jump cuts, tilting
cameras, spinning cameras, fake home movies
(a major cliche by now), slow
motion, unmotivated zooms, long dissolves,
and unexpected freeze-frames.
It all must have looked good in film school,
but powerful filmmaking, as much as
anything else, is knowing what to leave out.
The Beat writers were conveying the
racing thoughts and images that came pouring
out at them every day from the radio,
movies, magazines, and their own drug-addled
craniums. On a 30-foot tall screen it
looks obvious and gives you a major headache.
The actors, with one exception, are all quite
good. Thomas Jane is likable enough as
Cassady; he just seems to be held in check by
a director who doesn't know how far
he wants to go. Claire Forlani displays a
highly charismatic, numbed beauty as Joan.
She's given little to do, but I found myself
waiting for her to show up again during
the slower middle portion of the film. I've
never seen her before, but this is a very
promising performance. Gretchen Mol, as I've
already suggested, is the embodiment
of Cherry Mary. One hopes that she doesn't
get typecast as world class jailbait.
Then there's Keanu Reeves. Reeves is an
absolute mystery to me, an actor so openly
void of talent I wouldn't let him near a
senior class performance of "The Egg and I."
But here he is again, reciting his lines as
if they're non-related words strung together
as a memory exercise. He's an actor who begs
for a Burger King uniform, but his
hunka-hunka burnin' looks will keep him
periodically in front of me for the rest of
my life ... unless, of course, I outlive him.
I'm going to start working out right now,
just to make sure.
"The Last Time I Committed Suicide" is a
beer-soaked, but fairly spruced-up
rendering of some pretty sweaty times. The
degrading treatment of the women in the
film is its most offensive element, though
this is sadly in keeping with the characters'
world view.
Rated R. 95 minutes.
J
CNN In-Depth: Showbiz
Related sites:
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:31:20 +0000
Reply-To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
Subject: clogginng the list
sorry to take up list space. i lost all of my saved messages last week
and i need to unsubscribe during my vacation. can someone forward me the
introductory message that explains how to do that. thanks. talk to
y'all in a couple of weeks.
Brian M. Kirchhoff
howl 420@juno.com
"I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
-Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:53:55 -0700
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: wsb tribute
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Here's a great obit from Salon Magazine...
I N + M E M O R I A M
william s. burroughs
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
BY GARY KAMIYA | the last of the great
shockers is gone. Joyce's Bloom sat
contentedly amid the smell of his shit, Henry
Miller shoved pricks in our faces, Genet and
Celine ripped off the masks, but for pure
literary devastation, William S. Burroughs
trumped them all. He came in from another
galaxy and left the door open behind him. You
had to put on a space suit to read Burroughs,
and you still froze.
Burroughs brought the Big Cold into our
literature. He pushed literature way out, past
all the stop signs, into a wasteland where the
faces screamed like Francis Bacon portraits and the pain wasn't
literary.
He was the first writer to visit the other world of junk with a
functioning
camera, and nobody has ever run that nightmare movie so well. But it
wasn't just about dope -- that would have been a mere novelty act,
sensationalism for decadents. Burroughs had the scary genius to turn the
junk wasteland into a parallel universe, one as thoroughly and
obsessively
rendered as Blake's.
Burroughs was the killer, the icy-faced old poet who recorded every
movement of the extraterrestrial machinery that was eating his flesh. He
was 20th century drug culture's Poe, its Artaud, its Baudelaire. He was
the prophet of the literature of pure experience, a phenomenologist of
dread. While the rest of the Beats were rehearsing their
fuck-you-mom-and-Eisenhower-too versions of Romanticism, Burroughs
was already unspeakably old, already a veteran of evil campaigns on
several really gnarly planets. Next to him, Ginsberg and the rest seemed
like schoolkids.
That this laconic Midwesterner -- "Old Bull Lee," Kerouac dubbed him in
"On the Road" -- ended up as the paterfamilias of his renegade
generation
is one of our odd half-century's better jokes. Some father figure! A
homosexual ex-junkie whose claim to fame rests on one book, who killed
his wife playing William Tell in Mexico City and whose epiphanic image
-- repeated ad nauseam when he later foolishly codified his "cut-up"
technique into a system -- was a teenage cock ejaculating while train
whistles blew nostalgically in the distance. Follow him!
But when you read "Naked Lunch," you understand why Burroughs was
the man. "Naked Lunch" remains one of the unquestionable masterpieces
of the 20th century -- eminently worthy of its honored place as the book
whose obscenity trial effectively ended literary censorship in America.
The odyssey of "Naked Lunch," as recounted in John De St. Jorre's
"Venus Bound," is a fascinating one. Burroughs wrote the book in
Tangier, Morocco, between 1954 and 1957. Writer Paul Bowles visited
Burroughs and described his somewhat unusual compositional technique:
"(Burroughs' hotel room) was the dirtiest place I had ever seen. 'What's
all this paper on the floor, Bill?' I asked. 'It's my new work,' he
said. He
told me it was all right to leave it there. There were hundreds of pages
of
yellow foolscap all over the floor covered with footprints, bits of old
cheese sandwiches, rat droppings -- it was filthy. When he finished a
page he'd just throw it on the floor. He had no copies and when I asked
him why he didn't pick it up, he said it was OK, it would get picked up
one day."
In 1957, a raft of Burroughs' Beat friends, including Allen Ginsberg,
Jack
Kerouac and Peter Orlovsky, arrived in Tangier and placed his chaotic,
provolone-encrusted manuscript in some order. And finally, in 1959, it
was published by Maurice Girodias' legendary Olympia Press, which
released it in Paris as No. 76 of the "Traveller's Companion" series.
(According to Girodias, he initially rejected the manuscript because of
its
moth-eaten condition and total lack of conventional narrative
organization. According to Terry Southern, however, the Frenchman
initially rejected it because it didn't have enough sex in it: "All the
way to
page 17!" Southern recollects Girodias as saying. "And it's still only a
blow job!" ) Grove Press published it in the U.S. in 1962. The state of
Massachussetts tried to suppress it in 1966 but lost, in a landmark
case.
Burroughs may turn out to be the last experimenter who could still
surprise us. Perhaps that's because his experimentations seem
organically
linked to actual experience. His vaunted "cut-up" technique, a kind of
literary version of 12-tone composition, would have been merely an
empty formalism -- except that it recapitulated the eternally recurring
nightmare logic of the junkie's brain. If hell circled around and around
without end, then Burroughs' sentences would, too. And they did.
The abysses and demons of "Naked Lunch" are justly celebrated -- the
horrific vision of an age of coming Total Control, the cosmic entropy
that
collapses everything into insect twitches, the time loops that make
escape
impossible. But often forgotten, beneath the book's monstrous
outer-space aspect, is how screamingly funny it is. "Naked Lunch"
combines audacious formal experimentation -- endlessly recurring motifs,
a deliriously non-linear narration, half-psychotic, half-allegorical
science
fiction-y themes -- with a deep-dish American slapstick humor made up
of equal parts Mad magazine, Jonathan Swift, Catskill comedy and
drag-queen bitchiness, all delivered in deliciously dead-on slang.
Burroughs is probably the hippest writer of slang since Mark Twain:
Certainly you'd have to go back to Twain to find another writer whose
jokes carry the vernacular rightness of Burroughs'.
Burroughs' trademark is the rapid and hilarious juxtaposition of
outrageous, cartoony metaphysical evil -- people turning into huge blobs
of ectoplasm, prolapsed rectums wandering around blindly feeling for
some action -- with casually deflating argot, sometimes that of a bland
bureaucrat but usually that of a world-weary New Yawk hustler.
Take the scene in "Naked Lunch" when a narc named Bradley the
Buyer, a man "so anonymous, grey and spectral the pusher don't
remember him afterwards" "hunts up a young junkie and gives him a
paper to make it." "'I just want to rub up against you and get fixed.'
'Ugh
... well all right ... But why cancha just get physical like a human?'
Later
the boy is sitting in a Waldorf with two colleagues dunking pound cake.
'Most distasteful thing I ever stand still for,' he says. 'Some way he
make
himself all soft like a blob of jelly and surround me so nasty. Then he
gets wet all over with green slime. So I guess he come to some kinda
awful climax ... I come near wigging with that green stuff all over me,
and he stink like a rotten old canteloupe.'"
And then, in one of those dazzling insane changes that the man runs,
Mahler to Captain Beefheart to Coltrane on the same page, Burroughs
pulls back, focuses wide and blows away the whole Beat tribe of
America-bashers: "And the U.S. drag closes in around us like no other
drag in the world, worse than the Andes, high mountain towns, cold wind
down from postcard mountains, thin air like death in the throat ... But
there is no drag like U.S. drag. You can't see it, you don't know where
it
comes from. Take one of those cocktail lounges at the end of a suburban
street -- every block of houses has its own bar and drugstore and market
and liquorstore. You walk in and it hits you. But where does it come
from? Not the bartender, not the customers, nor the cream-colored
plastic rounding the bar stools, nor the dim neon. Not even the TV. And
our habits build up with the drag ..."
Taken alone, any one of "Naked Lunch's" many voices -- allegoristic
sci-fi, drug-crazed fever visions, haunted personal memories -- would
pall. Together, however, they make a wild cocktail that captures, with
singular precision, something at once mad, hilarious, terrible and
essential.
I've read "Naked Lunch" four times -- for fun and terror. How many
avant-garde works can you read four times for any reason?
Others have pushed through the doors left open by Burroughs.
Performance artists, evil unfettered cartoonists like S. Clay Wilson and
R.
Crumb, high poets of modernist hallucination like Denis Johnson,
musicians like Jim Morrison and Lou Reed, numberless directors and
painters. But he will have no real follower, for he was an original. He
was
a lab-coated technician of an inner world whose dreadful charts are
documents -- and an artist who summoned new words to describe
experiences for which there had been no name. He walked the line
between art and experience, what happened and the telling of it, with an
amazing and dangerous style.
Adios, Bill ... The great gray wind is blowing forever now ... skin
sloughed off like old lizard parchment ... no more creepy ectoplasm and
twitch of unspeakable insect need ... sleep on, amigo. You're out of
this
cough-syrup burb for good ... you gave us new language for old dreams
...
Aug. 4, 1997
Bookmark: http://www.salonmagazine.com/news/newsreal.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 15:01:09 -0400
Reply-To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: McSorleys on Tuesday
Hello,
This is an open invitation for anybody interested in getting together at
McSorleys on Tuesday Night (tomorrow) for a beer or two and a chat or two.
This is not necessarily a beat thing, but more a social thing (an excuse to
drink beer). McSorleys -- New York's oldest bar, located on 7th Street
(forget off what Avenue but it's on the eastside, off 2nd Avenue maybe), at 8
pm. How will you know each other. Maybe by Kharma, or someone using a beat
term or terminology. Or maybe you'll meet someone who doesn't give a shit
about the beats but still interesting to talk to.
later, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:48:05 -0500
Reply-To: Sara Ellefson <Sara.Ellefson@INFORES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Ellefson <Sara.Ellefson@INFORES.COM>
Subject: Burroughs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I just found out this morning that Burroughs died over the weekend.
I've been off the list for a while cause of work and life and no time,
etc. Can someone please forward me info . . . what's going on? Any
events planned in Chicago?
Thanks
Sara.Ellefson@infores.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 18:11:04 -0400
Reply-To: Carrie Sherlock <csherloc@UOGUELPH.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carrie Sherlock <csherloc@UOGUELPH.CA>
Subject: Re: clogginng the list
Comments: To: Brian M Kirchhoff <howl420@JUNO.COM>
In-Reply-To: <19970804.133122.3262.20.howl420@juno.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Diddo on that one. Could that same someone send a copy to me aswell.
Ta very much.
Carrie sherlock.
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Brian M Kirchhoff wrote:
> sorry to take up list space. i lost all of my saved messages last week
> and i need to unsubscribe during my vacation. can someone forward me the
> introductory message that explains how to do that. thanks. talk to
> y'all in a couple of weeks.
>
> Brian M. Kirchhoff
> howl 420@juno.com
>
> "I am the perfect man...the Buddha of this world!"
> -Kerouac, Brooklyn Bridge Blues, Chorus 4 (unpublished)
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:03:59 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Fresh air - Burroughs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Just heard on intro to fresh Air on NPR that they will be playing some
rearly recordings of Burroughs during the program. It's 7:03 eastern time
and the hour long program is just starting.
Michael
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 19:10:16 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: fare thee well
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
[1][Masthead]
[]
[2][Navigation bar]
[3][Stocks] __________
______________
=20
=20
[4][Search] [5][WIRED magazine]
[]
[6][Back] _Farewell, Junkie Godfather_
=20
_by [7]R.U. Sirius _
8:58am 4.Aug.97.PDT _"Kim had never doubted the existence of God or
the possibility of an afterlife. He considered that immortality was
the only goal worth striving for. He knew it was not something you
automatically get for believing in some arbitrary dogma like
Christianity or Islam. It is something you have to work and fight for,
like everything else in life."_
- _The Western Lands,_ William S. Burroughs, 1987
=20
A great liberator has passed from our midst. William S. Burroughs,
born 1914 in St. Louis, Missouri, died Saturday afternoon in Lawrence,
Kansas.
=20
Frequently called one of the greatest writers of the 20th century - as
often as not by people who never actually read his substantial body of
work - Burroughs ripped literature out by its Victorian roots,
examining the very elements of language. He experimented with it and
he changed it. And in the process he became a somewhat reluctant
harbinger of a revolution in culture itself. Burroughs was a writer,
but he was much more, and much less, than that.
=20
Burroughs would become an icon of apocalyptic hipster cynicism.
Simultaneously, he would be a kind of black-humored advice counselor
to avant garde psychedelicists and magicians seeking a "breakthrough
in the gray room." And he would eventually become an honored "man of
letters" within the literary establishment itself.
=20
Burroughs' writing resonated deeply within the best minds of several
generations, because it reflected both the frantic horror and
liberatory potential of our unmoored scientific and technological
epoch. But it was his presence and his voice that would enter the
public imagination. He was the great gray gentleman junkie Godfather,
and you didn't need to be particularly literate to pick up the vibe.
Burroughs looked and sounded like death itself.
=20
Recalling a childhood incident, Burroughs would write frequently about
"the St. Louis matron who said I was a walking corpse." But his
spectral presence had a charming, dapper, dignified quality. And to
_hear_ Burroughs read his own writing was to understand that he wasn't
just a talented experimentalist, he was the funniest goddamned
stand-up comedian of his time.
=20
Burroughs first came to prominence when his second novel, _Naked
Lunch,_ became the subject of an obscenity trial in the early '60s. He
emerged, along with Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, as one of the
major icons of the beat literary movement. But it was in the 1980s and
'90s that Burroughs became an omnipresent pop culture apparition.
=20
Appearing with recording artists ranging from Laurie Anderson to
Ministry, in films such as _Drugstore Cowboy,_ and referenced by every
punk and post-punk artist from the United States to Slovenia,
Burroughs was able to semi-retire in relative comfort in Lawrence,
Kansas, where he moved to escape the hardcore druggie party scene that
had developed around his infamous "bunker" in New York's Bowery.
=20
Eventually the man who once wrote "Words, colors, light, sound, stone,
wood, bronze belong to the living artist. They belong to anyone who
can use them. Loot the Louvre! ... Steal anything in sight...." would
even appear in a Nike advertisement. For William S. Burroughs - junkie
faggot, interdimensional voodoo tactician, and antediluvian comedian -
the American dream lived perversely. A boy from Kansas with the
courage to write about talking assholes, junky scammers, and
autoerotic asphyxiated young boys spurting semen while being sodomized
by venal government operatives could make a name for himself.
=20
Now he's passed over to the other side, what he referred to as "The
Western Lands." He believed in an afterlife - in a magical universe. I
hope that, for William, the other side is as imaginative,
entertaining, and dignified as he was.
=20
_Related Wired Links:_
[INLINE]
=20
_[8]Godard, Burroughs Join 'Network Conspiracy'
1.May.97
=20
[9]Cultural Cracks and Pocket Universes=20
11.Jul.97
=20
[10]Ginsberg: A Web unto Himself=20
7.Apr.97
=20
[11]Burroughs Pops Online Cherry with Drag Queens=20
20.Feb.97
=20
=20
=20
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All rights reserved.
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[19]Click Here for NetObjects
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[20]Farewell, Junkie Godfather
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[Culture]
CULTURE
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[21]Handheld Musuem Ready to Hit the Pavement
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[22]Virtual Plants, Insects Twine through Net
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[23]Farewell, Junkie Godfather
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[24]UUNET Given the 'Death Penalty'
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[25]Gossip Tabloid Invades the Web!!!
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[26]AOL Spends Like Crazy on Asylum
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[27]America's Progressive-est Home Videos
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References
1. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#mas=
thead.map
2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#nav=
1.map
3. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10010/http://stocks.wired.co=
m/
4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#nav=
2.map
5. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10012/http://www.wired.com/w=
ired/
6. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture
7. mailto:rusirius@well.com
8. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/3545.html
9. http://www.wired.com/news/news//story/5132.html
10. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2981.html
11. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2173.html
12. http://www.wired.com/newbot/
13. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture
14. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#nav=
strip.map
15. mailto:news_feedback@wired.com
16. mailto:tips@wired.com
17. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
18. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#nav=
3.map
19. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=3Dclick&ProfileID=3D19&RunID=3D25&=
AdID=3D354&Redirect=3Dhttp:%2F%2Fwww.netobjects.com%2Fanti-chaos%2Fhotwired=
=2Ehtml
20. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html
21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5727.html
22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5720.html
23. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html
24. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5732.html
25. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5718.html
26. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5717.html
27. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5683.html
28. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5685.html
29. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5755.html
30. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5649.html
31. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5632.html
32. http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=3Dclick&ProfileID=3D19&RunID=3D25&=
AdID=3D354&Redirect=3Dhttp:%2F%2Fwww.netobjects.com%2Fanti-chaos%2Fhotwired=
=2Ehtml
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:25:20 -0700
Reply-To: Tellyman <Tellyman@BIGFOOT.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tellyman <Tellyman@BIGFOOT.COM>
Organization: nah
Subject: Re: the real story behind "beat"
Comments: To: GYENIS@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I believe that it was the same hearing where Popeye was lobbying for yams.
>
Is that where "I yam what I yam, and thats all that I yam" came
from??
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:05:28 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: let us all be creative
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hey folks,
what if someone actually made a Beat Generation movie which used
material from Barry Miles and Anne Charters just to name a few? Who would
play which beat? Assuming the movie will focus on how they all met at
Columbia and from associating with friends of other friends, maybe we
can speculate and make a list?
possible candidates:
william burroughs= steve buscemi? Gary Oldman?
Allen Ginsberg= Jeff Goldblume?
Jack Kerouac= "Older jack could be played by Al Pacino possibly"
Lucien Carr= Leonardo DiCaprio
Joan Vollmer= Uma Thurman (okay i'm starting to digress into Hollywood)
Brion Gysin= Rutger Hauer
please add and/or suggest different ones.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 01:12:01 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: let us all be creative
Reply to message from jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU of Tue, 05 Aug
>
>hey folks,
> what if someone actually made a Beat Generation movie which used
>material from Barry Miles and Anne Charters just to name a few? Who would
>play which beat? Assuming the movie will focus on how they all met at
>Columbia and from associating with friends of other friends, maybe we
>can speculate and make a list?
>
>possible candidates:
>william burroughs= steve buscemi? Gary Oldman?
>Allen Ginsberg= Jeff Goldblume?
>Jack Kerouac= "Older jack could be played by Al Pacino possibly"
>Lucien Carr= Leonardo DiCaprio
>Joan Vollmer= Uma Thurman (okay i'm starting to digress into Hollywood)
>Brion Gysin= Rutger Hauer
>
>please add and/or suggest different ones.
Leonardo DiCaprio as Lucien Carr....oh my....somehow he just seems a little
too pouty to play fun-luvin' Lucien...or maybe his portrayal of Romeo just
sticks in my brain too well...
Diane. (H)
--
"Everyone I've ever loved has killed me a little."
--Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:24:53 -0500
Reply-To: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: LISA VEDROS <2ndbeat@TELAPEX.COM>
Subject: Second Beat #5
Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
well...with second beat #5 we had planned to stop the theme issues for a
bit and go back to our usual chaotic mess of a magazine. Sadly (as you all
probably know already) William S. Burroughs died Saturday. Therefore our
fifth issue will be a memorial tributee to him. In the words of my partner
Domenic, "No one should have to do two memorial issues in one year." but
sadly, we must. Any submissions will be gladly accepted, as with the
Ginsberg issue. Still only a buck, if anyone wants to order WAY in advance.
Scheduled print date: Mid-September. any submissions, questions, anything:
<2ndbeat@telapex.com> is where you should send them. Thanks for all the
interest and orders and money and stuff from all you wonderful beat kats
out there. We hope we're keeping you interested and those of you who've
received any of our issues to date, we hope you're enjoying them. Thanks
again,
Thadeus D'Angelo, Camellia City Books
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 08:23:26 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: fare thee well
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Wired is much admired for it's style and "cutting edge" journalism, too bad they
didn't have room in the budget for a fact-checker's salary. St. Louis moves to
Kansas from paragraph 1 to paragraph 9. Burroughs was very much the
upper-middle class St. Louis boy gone bad...... Kansas was an afterthought,
'tho I'm sure he grew to love it (If he ever loved anything other than his sweet
cats).
sign me,
a nitpicking nosepicker with the language virus,
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: fare thee well
Author: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG> at Internet
Date: 8/4/97 7:10 PM
[1][Masthead]
[]
[2][Navigation bar]
[3][Stocks] __________
______________
[4][Search] [5][WIRED magazine]
[]
[6][Back] _Farewell, Junkie Godfather_
_by [7]R.U. Sirius _
8:58am 4.Aug.97.PDT _"Kim had never doubted the existence of God or
the possibility of an afterlife. He considered that immortality was
the only goal worth striving for. He knew it was not something you
automatically get for believing in some arbitrary dogma like
Christianity or Islam. It is something you have to work and fight for,
like everything else in life."_
- _The Western Lands,_ William S. Burroughs, 1987
A great liberator has passed from our midst. William S. Burroughs,
born 1914 in St. Louis, Missouri, died Saturday afternoon in Lawrence,
Kansas.
Frequently called one of the greatest writers of the 20th century - as
often as not by people who never actually read his substantial body of
work - Burroughs ripped literature out by its Victorian roots,
examining the very elements of language. He experimented with it and
he changed it. And in the process he became a somewhat reluctant
harbinger of a revolution in culture itself. Burroughs was a writer,
but he was much more, and much less, than that.
Burroughs would become an icon of apocalyptic hipster cynicism.
Simultaneously, he would be a kind of black-humored advice counselor
to avant garde psychedelicists and magicians seeking a "breakthrough
in the gray room." And he would eventually become an honored "man of
letters" within the literary establishment itself.
Burroughs' writing resonated deeply within the best minds of several
generations, because it reflected both the frantic horror and
liberatory potential of our unmoored scientific and technological
epoch. But it was his presence and his voice that would enter the
public imagination. He was the great gray gentleman junkie Godfather,
and you didn't need to be particularly literate to pick up the vibe.
Burroughs looked and sounded like death itself.
Recalling a childhood incident, Burroughs would write frequently about
"the St. Louis matron who said I was a walking corpse." But his
spectral presence had a charming, dapper, dignified quality. And to
_hear_ Burroughs read his own writing was to understand that he wasn't
just a talented experimentalist, he was the funniest goddamned
stand-up comedian of his time.
Burroughs first came to prominence when his second novel, _Naked
Lunch,_ became the subject of an obscenity trial in the early '60s. He
emerged, along with Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg, as one of the
major icons of the beat literary movement. But it was in the 1980s and
'90s that Burroughs became an omnipresent pop culture apparition.
Appearing with recording artists ranging from Laurie Anderson to
Ministry, in films such as _Drugstore Cowboy,_ and referenced by every
punk and post-punk artist from the United States to Slovenia,
Burroughs was able to semi-retire in relative comfort in Lawrence,
Kansas, where he moved to escape the hardcore druggie party scene that
had developed around his infamous "bunker" in New York's Bowery.
Eventually the man who once wrote "Words, colors, light, sound, stone,
wood, bronze belong to the living artist. They belong to anyone who
can use them. Loot the Louvre! ... Steal anything in sight...." would
even appear in a Nike advertisement. For William S. Burroughs - junkie
faggot, interdimensional voodoo tactician, and antediluvian comedian -
the American dream lived perversely. A boy from Kansas with the
courage to write about talking assholes, junky scammers, and
autoerotic asphyxiated young boys spurting semen while being sodomized
by venal government operatives could make a name for himself.
Now he's passed over to the other side, what he referred to as "The
Western Lands." He believed in an afterlife - in a magical universe. I
hope that, for William, the other side is as imaginative,
entertaining, and dignified as he was.
_Related Wired Links:_
[INLINE]
_[8]Godard, Burroughs Join 'Network Conspiracy'
1.May.97
[9]Cultural Cracks and Pocket Universes
11.Jul.97
[10]Ginsberg: A Web unto Himself
7.Apr.97
[11]Burroughs Pops Online Cherry with Drag Queens
20.Feb.97
Find related stories from the Web's top news sites with [12]NewBot
[13][Back] [14][Navigation strip]
[15]Feedback: Let us know how we're doing.
[16]Tips: Have a story or tip for Wired News? Send it.
[17]Copyright c 1993-97 Wired Ventures Inc. and affiliated companies.
All rights reserved.
[18][HotWired and HotBot]
[] []
[19]Click Here for NetObjects
[20]Farewell, Junkie Godfather
[Culture]
CULTURE
Today's Headlines
[21]Handheld Musuem Ready to Hit the Pavement
[22]Virtual Plants, Insects Twine through Net
[23]Farewell, Junkie Godfather
[24]UUNET Given the 'Death Penalty'
[25]Gossip Tabloid Invades the Web!!!
[26]AOL Spends Like Crazy on Asylum
[27]America's Progressive-est Home Videos
[28]Six Ways to Say 'What's Your Age and Sex?'
[29]Net Surf: Microsoft's ITV
[30]Net Surf: Alexa's New Navigation Service
[31]Geek Backtalk: Part II
[32]Click Here for NetObjects [INLINE] _
References
1.
LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#masthead.map
2. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#nav1.map
3. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10010/http://stocks.wired.com/
4. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#nav2.map
5. http://www.hotwired.com/cgi-bin/redirect/10012/http://www.wired.com/wired/
6. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture
7. mailto:rusirius@well.com
8. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/3545.html
9. http://www.wired.com/news/news//story/5132.html
10. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2981.html
11. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2173.html
12. http://www.wired.com/newbot/
13. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture
14.
LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#navstrip.map
15. mailto:news_feedback@wired.com
16. mailto:tips@wired.com
17. http://www.wired.com/wired/full.copyright.html
18. LYNXIMGMAP:http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html#nav3.map
19.
http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=19&RunID=25&AdID=354&Redirect
=http:%2F%2Fwww.netobjects.com%2Fanti-chaos%2Fhotwired.html
20. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html
21. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5727.html
22. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5720.html
23. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html
24. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5732.html
25. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5718.html
26. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5717.html
27. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5683.html
28. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5685.html
29. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5755.html
30. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5649.html
31. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5632.html
32.
http://www.wired.com/event.ng?Type=click&ProfileID=19&RunID=25&AdID=354&Redirect
=http:%2F%2Fwww.netobjects.com%2Fanti-chaos%2Fhotwired.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:06:58 -0400
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: WSB/MTV
to-day on MTV their little MTV NEWS stint (about 7 minutes before the hour)
includes a tribute to WBS. My favorite part was when Bono of U2 said,
"He's lived the lives of 10 men in just one."
Diane. (H)
--
"Everyone I've ever loved has killed me a little."
--Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
Diane M. Homza
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:21:59 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Subject: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Burroughs Spun a Legacy of Naked Sense
http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5771.html
My story on the Net's response to William's death is on Wired News this
morning. Levi Asher, Christian Crumlish, Malcolm Humes, Tim Franklin, and
others are quoted. Please don't post the entire text to mailing lists for
a day or so, but links are most welcome and appreciated. Thanks!
Steve Silberman
**********************************
Steve Silberman
Senior Culture Writer
WIRED News
http://www.wired.com/
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:26:18 -0700
Reply-To: stain@earthling.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Russell Harrison <stain@EARTHLING.NET>
Organization: Switch Magazine
Subject: Burroughs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
William S. Burroughs was truly a literary giant whose influence will be
felt for generations to come. The cutup method that Burroughs developed
with Brion Gysin has provided many artists a new objective through which
to develop their literary perspective. The first cutup I ever read of
his
from The Third Mind blew me away...I'm sure that many participating in
this tributes feel the same way about the sum of his writing. He had so
much courage, and it was this fearlessness that made his art shine in a
world of homogenized, pop-culture conformity.
To help develop the use of the cutup method and electronic text
randomization, cybeRhyme, the literature section of Switch
Magazine in Montreal (http://www.switchmag.com/rhyme/, houses the
realitymachine cutup machine, developed by Eric Nyberg of Carnegie
Mellon University. We hope
that writers and fans of Burroughs' work will check out our experimental
cutup section and use it. It can be found in our Special Sections area.
Thank you again, William S. Burroughs. Rest in Peace.
Russell Harrison
Editor, cybeRhyme
Switch Magazine
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
http://www.switchmag.com/rhyme/
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 09:49:20 -0700
Reply-To: Christian Crumlish <xian@POBOX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Christian Crumlish <xian@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Steve Silberman <digaman@wired.com>
In-Reply-To: <v03007803b00d02cdc74b@[204.62.132.59]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
nice job, digaman. thanks for quoting me in such a good light!
--xian
At 9:21 AM -0700 8/5/97, Steve Silberman wrote:
>Burroughs Spun a Legacy of Naked Sense
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5771.html
>
>My story on the Net's response to William's death is on Wired News this
>morning. Levi Asher, Christian Crumlish, Malcolm Humes, Tim Franklin, and
>others are quoted. Please don't post the entire text to mailing lists for
>a day or so, but links are most welcome and appreciated. Thanks!
>
>
>Steve Silberman
>
>
>**********************************
>Steve Silberman
>Senior Culture Writer
>WIRED News
> http://www.wired.com/
>***********************************
--
th'ezone: http://ezone.org/ez
the'mezone: http://pobox.com/~xian
th'egress: http://coffeehousebook.com
Recognition of fortuitous accident
may be the real meaning of "talent."
--Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:20:45 -0700
Reply-To: Christian Crumlish <xian@POBOX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Christian Crumlish <xian@POBOX.COM>
Subject: 10K pardons?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
i realize i pathetically cc:d yer friggin' list in my sappy reply to steve.
please forgive me.
--xian, an eternal newbie
--
th'ezone: http://ezone.org/ez
the'mezone: http://pobox.com/~xian
th'egress: http://coffeehousebook.com
Recognition of fortuitous accident
may be the real meaning of "talent."
--Robert Hunter
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:17:16 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
to our old boy Bill.
Not knocking it one way or the other, just observing.
At 09:21 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Burroughs Spun a Legacy of Naked Sense
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5771.html
>
>My story on the Net's response to William's death is on Wired News this
>morning. Levi Asher, Christian Crumlish, Malcolm Humes, Tim Franklin, and
>others are quoted. Please don't post the entire text to mailing lists for
>a day or so, but links are most welcome and appreciated. Thanks!
>
>
>Steve Silberman
>
>
>**********************************
>Steve Silberman
>Senior Culture Writer
>WIRED News
> http://www.wired.com/
>***********************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:36:06 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: NYC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hey Beat-l, any interesting literary or Beat-related happenings in NYC this
weekend? I'll be around and looking for this sort of thing. Please reply
off-list. Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:22:45 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Silberman wrote:
>
> Burroughs Spun a Legacy of Naked Sense
> http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5771.html
>
> My story on the Net's response to William's death is on Wired News this
> morning. Levi Asher, Christian Crumlish, Malcolm Humes, Tim Franklin, and
> others are quoted.
I am very pleased that you included our very own Chris Ritter and Luke
Kelly's work among the others. BTW, we in the San Francisco Bay area had
our own, just so happened, gathering Saturday night thanks to James
Stauffer again. When we got the news, my first reaction was, oh no, not
our time to party. Then I immediately realized how great to be with
these particular friends together to absorb this moment. The impact of
Burroughs was etched in our faces, in our realigned breath standing
around the festive table. We proceeded to have a very great evening.
Fittingly floating across the "generation gaps". Thank you James and
everybody.
Leon
> Please don't post the entire text to mailing lists for
> a day or so, but links are most welcome and appreciated. Thanks!
>
> Steve Silberman
>
> **********************************
> Steve Silberman
> Senior Culture Writer
> WIRED News
> http://www.wired.com/
> ***********************************
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:52:57 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199708051817.LAA19641@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:17 AM -0700 8/5/97, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
>to our old boy Bill.
>Not knocking it one way or the other, just observing.
Tim:
Observing with a rather jaundiced eye, it appears. If you think Wired News
is "the epitome of the corporate establishment," you haven't looked at
news.com, msnbc.com, cnn.com, Fortune, Barron's, US News and World Report,
Time, Newsweek, or the Wall Street Journal lately.
In fact, WiredNews and HotWired have been covering Beat stuff very very
thoroughly for years, owing in no small part to the fact that I'm the
senior culture writer here at Wired News, and a former student of
Burroughs' and friend of Allen Ginsberg's. I was the reporter who wrote the
very first news story anywhere on Allen's illness, in fact, and we've
devoted a tremendous amount of space to Beat stuff on the Net - as well as
many other progressive social movements that you won't read about on
news.com or msnbc.com or the other major news sites.
The proof is in the pudding - related links, just a partial list!
Farewell, Junkie Godfather
http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html
Godard, Burroughs Join 'Network Conspiracy'
http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/3545.html
Ginsberg: A Web unto Himself
http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2981.html
The Club Wired Interview with Allen Ginsberg
http://www.hotwired.com/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-ginsberg.html
Burroughs Pops Online Cherry with Drag Queens
http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2173.html
Steve Silberman
**********************************
Steve Silberman
Senior Culture Writer
WIRED News
http://www.wired.com/
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:01:25 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Stuff from Levi Asher
The wholly perspicacious Levi Asher, granddaddy of Beat sites on the
Internet, forefather and founder of the much-lauded (and award-winning)
Literary Kicks, has a new site you all should check out. <A HREF="http://www.c
offeehousebook.com/index.html">coffee house book web site splash page</A>
Along with Christian Crumlish (<A HREF="xian@POBOX.COM">xian@POBOX.COM</A>),
Levi (<A HREF="brooklyn@NETCOM.COM">brooklyn@NETCOM.COM</A>) has assembled a
sort of anthology of writing taken from various personalities and locations
in cyberspace (but these people exist in real-time, too, or at least they
claim to). This has turned into an actual BOOK!
The site's very friendly and gives an overview of the book, which can also be
cyber-purchased for those of you with VISA or Mastercard (no, I don't get a
cut of the take). I'm especially impressed with the design, which is simple
and dynamic, two of my favorite qualities in websites, as well as in people.
If you've never been to Levi's site (What? What the hell have you been doing
with your life? Get over there, right now!) you can visit it thusly: <A HREF="
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/HomePages/LeviAsher.html">Levi Asher</A> .
Actually, I don't have the link here, but that will take you to Levi's little
autobiography, and you can figure it out from there. Oh, here. Let me make a
link for you: <A HREF=" http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ ">http://www.charm.ne
t/~brooklyn/</A> .
Co-editor/author Christian Crumlish has a site, as well, and you can visit
him by going here: <A HREF="http://www.ezone.org:1080/homies/xian/top.html">of
f the top of me head</A> . Lotta stuff there.
If you've tried to email me as MemBabe and gotten a message saying I can't
receive mail, that's because I have 8 month's worth of correspondence to sort
through, and was taxing the limits of my filing cabinet. Please feel free to
write me here: <A HREF="mailto:ddrooy@aol.com">ddrooy@aol.com</A> .
Finally, for those who've asked, the beat generation private chat room on AOL
has no formal meeting times through the summer. Why would people want to sit
in a chat room when they could be outside pulling weeds and suffering bee
stings? However, for anyone who ever wants to show up there any time, to
discuss all things Beat, here's the link: <A HREF="aol://2719:2-2-beat genera
tion">beat generation</A> .
You'll find me there a lot more after Labor Day.
Questions? Answers? Write me a letter.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:33:41 -0700
Reply-To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU
In-Reply-To: <199708051817.LAA19641@hsc.usc.edu> from "Timothy K. Gallaher" at
Aug 5, 97 11:17:16 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tim wrote, about Wired:
> Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
> to our old boy Bill.
I know I'm asking for it here, but what the hell.
Okay Tim: why is Wired (a pretty progressive and free-thinking
place, as far as I can tell) the epitome of the corporate
establishment?
Honest question, no flame war please.
------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (3 years old and still running) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
| |
| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
| -- Jack Kerouac |
------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:58:22 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I think the biggest qestion is why is there something wrong with being
corporate establishment?
How many CEO's do they interview?
How many corporations advertise big time in their leaflets (ie pages)? Just
look at Wired and you can't even find the index due to all the corporate ads.
To my mind "progressive and free thinking" has permeated the culture so much
that it is corporate culture.
Burroughs was doing ads for Nike a huge corporation.
Steve mentioned comparing Wired to US News and World Garbage (I mean report)
I took a gander at it the other day and it's big story was a positive
feature on the burning wickerman festival. That's also what Wired hypes as
well.
It's all the same to me. All I am pointing out is rhetoric and semantics.
Saying it is corporate establishment is immediately taken as a slam. I mean
it as an objective observation.
At 12:33 PM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Tim wrote, about Wired:
>> Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
>> to our old boy Bill.
>
>I know I'm asking for it here, but what the hell.
>
>Okay Tim: why is Wired (a pretty progressive and free-thinking
>place, as far as I can tell) the epitome of the corporate
>establishment?
>
>Honest question, no flame war please.
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
>| |
>| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
>| (3 years old and still running) |
>| |
>| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
>| (a real book, like on paper) |
>| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
>| |
>| *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
>| |
>| "It was my dream that screwed up" |
>| -- Jack Kerouac |
>------------------------------------------------------
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:11:07 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: he punched my ticket,
In-Reply-To: <33E76F75.8A6855AF@cruzio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
and my world exploded.
furthur, wsb.
and fare thee well
special thoughts for all beat-l folks here everywhere who knew him well.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:58:48 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Levi Asher wrote:
>
> Tim wrote, about Wired:
> > Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
> > to our old boy Bill.
>
> I know I'm asking for it here, but what the hell.
>
> Okay Tim: why is Wired (a pretty progressive and free-thinking
> place, as far as I can tell) the epitome of the corporate
> establishment?
>
> Honest question, no flame war please.
I hope it is getting time to let us know that you are kidding us again,
Tim. Hurry up, please...
leon
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
> | |
> | Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
> | (3 years old and still running) |
> | |
> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
> | (a real book, like on paper) |
> | also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
> | |
> | *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
> | |
> | "It was my dream that screwed up" |
> | -- Jack Kerouac |
> ------------------------------------------------------
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:49:26 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, Leon, I have responded, e-mail is fast I guess but not instantaneous.
You'll get it.
As a follow up I present exhibit z an article from a corporate establishment
rag like Fortune or Forbes or something else
you make the call
_______
F O L L O W T H E M O N E Y | Issue 5.07 - July 1997
=20
Market Corrections
By Michael Murphy
Although I expected a serious correction this year, I thought trouble
would come in the old economy - industrial
and mass-production consumer stocks - not in the technology sector. The
market's volume and momentum at the
end of 1996 convinced me that I wouldn't need to buy protective puts
until the second half of the year.=20
Right idea, wrong time. The Nasdaq 100 rallied over 12 percent in the
first few weeks of 1997, then proceeded
to tumble 15.3 percent to a bottom on April 2, before climbing again.
The correction came earlier than I'd
expected. Caught off-guard, I asked myself three questions:=20
Why did it happen?=20
Should I change my investing process?=20
Is there a way to take advantage of the situation?=20
The last thing an investor should do is distill rules from recent
experience and blindly apply them to the future -
this is rearview-mirror investing. In analyzing market history, you can
always find some investment strategy that
worked. And just as you do, it stops working.=20
First, ask why?
The market entered 1997 with PC-related stocks - computers, software,
data storage, semiconductors, and
semiconductor equipment - very undervalued. Only the largest companies
like Intel, Microsoft, Adobe, and
Applied Materials were rallying. I knew PC sales were strong and
expected most PC-related companies to
report sequentially better March and June quarters. In fact, I still
predict a strong year for sales - growing close to
20 percent over last year.=20
In contrast, communications stocks entered 1997 grossly overvalued and
in decline. Most of the tech stocks
selling at 100 times earnings or 20 times sales were in communications
and the Internet. I thought these stocks
would have soft March and June quarters due to weak foreign markets.
Many companies preannounced poor
quarters and took a beating.=20
How did the communications sector drag down PC-related stocks? Momentum
mutual funds suffered sharp
drops when their 100-times earnings stocks plummeted. When investors
started redeeming shares, managers
who had been running with little or no cash had to sell anything they
could - including PC stocks.=20
My second mistake goes back to the recovery following the market
sell-off last July; large stocks in most
industries rallied early, while small stocks stalled. One-third of the
entire gain in the Nasdaq 100 index for 1995
and 1996 was accounted for by three stocks: Intel, Microsoft, and
Cisco. That phenomenon intensified in the last
half of 1996, as mutual fund investors responded to the midyear decline
by choosing index funds over actively
managed funds. Microsoft gets 19 cents out of every dollar invested in
a Nasdaq 100 index fund; Intel gets 19
cents, Cisco 5 cents, Oracle 4 cents, and MCI 3 cents. So more than 50
cents out of every dollar invested in
these funds goes into five stocks.=20
I should have seen this coming when a well-known aggressive fund
manager described his funds by saying, "This
one buys large and mid-cap stocks, but that one only buys small-cap
stocks - under $1 billion."=20
Under $1 billion! For years I bought stocks with market capitalizations
of $35 to $70 million, confident that as
the companies progressed and the market cap passed $100 million, the
institutions would come piling in. I
snickered at the $1 billion cutoff point when I should have been
listening harder. What this seemingly bizarre
statement meant is that the institutions are managing so much money,
they cannot afford to look at stocks with
market capitalizations under $200 or $300 million. A whole class of
stocks have been abandoned to the retail
network, left to independent brokers and individuals. And I owned too
many of those stocks.=20
Next, question your investing process
The inflows to professional money managers have been gigantic over the
last five years. Demographics suggest
there will be no slowdown in the next five. While I'm not ready to call
a $1 billion company a small-cap stock, I
am raising the bar to about $100 million. Stocks in the TWIT$ portfolio
meet the new minimum.=20
Finally, take advantage of the situation
While technical questions about Intel's production capacity remain,
earnings at Intel, Seagate, and Microsoft
show that business is strong. The underlying truth is that PC sales are
good and will improve as the year
progresses. Semiconductor sales, excluding DRAM chips, will do well.
Communications will resume its 30
percent growth rate in 1998.=20
The long-term picture for technology has not changed. The massive shift
from a mass-production consumer
economy based on oil to a technology economy based on semiconductors
will continue to generate major
investment opportunities for years to come. This is a correction; nasty
but transient. Ultimately, it will mean very
little to your long-term rate of return. Take advantage of the reduced
prices of TWIT$ stocks to the extent that
you can; that is the intelligent investor's response to a correction.
Believe it or not, before long people will be
griping because they did not buy when they had the chance.=20
TWIT$
I am going 100 percent invested by buying 24,000 shares of Informix,
the leader in object relational database
management systems. The market capitalization is more than $1.10
billion and the stock is down 77 percent from
its high last September.=20
Michael Murphy is a money manager who publishes the California
Technology Stock Letter in Half Moon
Bay, California.
TWIT$ is a model established by Wired, not an officially traded
portfolio. Michael Murphy is a professional money manager
who may have a personal interest in stocks listed in TWIT$ or mentioned
in this column. Wired readers who use this
information for investment decisions do so at their own risk.
Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Magazine Group Inc. All rights reserved.
Compilation Copyright =A9 1994-97 Wired Digital Inc. All rights=
reserved.
At 12:58 PM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Levi Asher wrote:
>>
>> Tim wrote, about Wired:
>> > Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such
e-ink
>> > to our old boy Bill.
>>
>> I know I'm asking for it here, but what the hell.
>>
>> Okay Tim: why is Wired (a pretty progressive and free-thinking
>> place, as far as I can tell) the epitome of the corporate
>> establishment?
>>
>> Honest question, no flame war please.
>
>I hope it is getting time to let us know that you are kidding us again,
>Tim. Hurry up, please...
>
>leon
>
>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> | Levi Asher =3D brooklyn@netcom.com |
>> | |
>> | Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
>> | (3 years old and still running) |
>> | |
>> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
>> | (a real book, like on paper) |
>> | also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
>> | |
>> | *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--* |
>> | |
>> | "It was my dream that screwed up" |
>> | -- Jack Kerouac |
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> .-
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:56:52 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: older than God
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
this
night summer
i must keep
a tear
looking at
the stars
in the deeper dark
anyone know of
a place
broken
my catholic
hearth
if it's
my time to go
so be it
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:11:39 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Steve Silberman <digaman@wired.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:52 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 11:17 AM -0700 8/5/97, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
>>to our old boy Bill.
>>Not knocking it one way or the other, just observing.
>
>Tim:
>
>Observing with a rather jaundiced eye, it appears.
Yes.
My eyes are so yellow they look like my teeth.
I wanted to get back to you about the cynicism because I didn't answer it
directly in my responses to Levi on the beat-l.
I remember laughing when Wired wrote up Levi's site Literary Kicks because
in the write up they couldn't even tell the difference between his site done
by him on charm.net with all the cool write ups and info levi did, and my
site on a totally different server where I slapped up a bunch of Jack
kerouac soundbites.
This is the great Wired magazine the leader of the great digital cyber
revolution and they couldn't even tell one web site from another?
That sort of thing breeds cynicism.
And lest you think this is a sour grapes because my site wasn't mentioned
(or rather I wasn't credited for it) that's not the case. I have always had
this opinion about Wired due to all the ads and the content of the magazine.
The point I want to reiterate is I see nothing wrong with the label "part of
the corporate establishment". It is not, to me, a put down.
I've seen too much to buy into any pretensions of counter culture or cutting
edge or other such things. I am very cynical (as you might put it) but
rather than cynicism I call it joie de vivre.
Keep up the good work Steve Silberman, people (meself uncolluded) appreciate
you.
>If you think Wired News
>is "the epitome of the corporate establishment," you haven't looked at
>news.com, msnbc.com, cnn.com, Fortune, Barron's, US News and World Report,
>Time, Newsweek, or the Wall Street Journal lately.
>
>In fact, WiredNews and HotWired have been covering Beat stuff very very
>thoroughly for years, owing in no small part to the fact that I'm the
>senior culture writer here at Wired News, and a former student of
>Burroughs' and friend of Allen Ginsberg's. I was the reporter who wrote the
>very first news story anywhere on Allen's illness, in fact, and we've
>devoted a tremendous amount of space to Beat stuff on the Net - as well as
>many other progressive social movements that you won't read about on
>news.com or msnbc.com or the other major news sites.
>
>The proof is in the pudding - related links, just a partial list!
>
>Farewell, Junkie Godfather
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5739.html
>
>Godard, Burroughs Join 'Network Conspiracy'
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/3545.html
>
>Ginsberg: A Web unto Himself
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2981.html
>
>The Club Wired Interview with Allen Ginsberg
>http://www.hotwired.com/club/special/transcripts/96-12-16-ginsberg.html
>
>Burroughs Pops Online Cherry with Drag Queens
>http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/2173.html
>
>
>Steve Silberman
>
>
>**********************************
>Steve Silberman
>Senior Culture Writer
>WIRED News
> http://www.wired.com/
>***********************************
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:18:52 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199708052049.NAA12940@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 1:49 PM -0700 8/5/97, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>As a follow up I present exhibit z an article from a corporate establishment
>rag like Fortune or Forbes or something else
>
>you make the call
I'll make the call, Tim.
I call that you extracted an article about finance from the finance section
of Wired magazine to prove your point.
Yes, Wired runs articles about finance, which are - shockingly - about
money, stocks, capitalism, corporations, and other items of interest to
"suits." We also run articles about organizations like Free Speech TV
(http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5683.html) who aim to tear
down the monopoly of corporate media and put culture-making tools in the
hands of non-corporate culturemakers like yourself. Does the Wall Street
Journal do this?
Did you even crack open any of those Beat links I sent before?
Can you name another news organization that runs interviews with CEOs *and*
hour-long audio broadcasts by Allen Ginsberg, Eno, and other luminaries,
plus articles about Burroughs' one and only online appearance, plus
everything else we cover, like the collaboration between Ginsberg and
painter Francesco Clemente archived here
(http://www.hotwired.com/workshop/95/49/index1a.html)?
Somehow, though, I'd rather be talking about Burroughs.
Steve Silberman
**********************************
Steve Silberman
Senior Culture Writer
WIRED News
http://www.wired.com/
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:08:54 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Tim and everybody,
I have no quarrel with your calling attention to the Corporate
Interests, Power and Profits that Wired and Hot-wired represent. In fact
it fascinated me from the very beginning of their explosive, leading
edge creative innovations. What's happening here? The Well, Negraponte,
Rheingold and Silberman or Dr. Weill invading corporate culture, or are
they invaded by it? Who is exploiting whom here? Is it the revolutionary
march that is infiltrating the mainstream power structure, or is it in
the process of being swallowed by it? I am not putting either of these
forces up or dow, like you observing in fascination, because I do no
think the radical creative pioneering fringe is not in the same phase as
the methodically efficient corporate systems. I watched Hot Wired in
fascination and continue to do so. Their sight is one of the very best
in my eyes, with the help of corporate resourcefulness I am sure.
I thought you were kidding when you expressed surprise:
> Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
> to our old boy Bill.
>
> Not knocking it one way or the other, just observing.
For god's sakes, this is the site that had the longest and best forum
about Leary's last trip. They have always fearlessly promoted creativity
in all its manifestations, open-mindedly giving expression to
independent, controversial thought and experimentation aesthetically and
otherwise. You really surprised at the e-ink ( I like this word. Are you
coining it?) devoted to Burghs?
I am just straightforwardly surprised at your surprise. No knocks. Next
question: Is Hotwired Beat? No no. Nevermind.
leon
>
> At 09:21 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Burroughs Spun a Legacy of Naked Sense
> >http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5771.html
> >
> >My story on the Net's response to William's death is on Wired News this
> >morning. Levi Asher, Christian Crumlish, Malcolm Humes, Tim Franklin, and
> >others are quoted. Please don't post the entire text to mailing lists for
> >a day or so, but links are most welcome and appreciated. Thanks!
> >
> >
> >Steve Silberman
> >
> >
> >**********************************
> >Steve Silberman
> >Senior Culture Writer
> >WIRED News
> > http://www.wired.com/
> >***********************************
> >
> >
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:29:32 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Steve Silberman <digaman@wired.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:18 PM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 1:49 PM -0700 8/5/97, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>>As a follow up I present exhibit z an article from a corporate establishment
>>rag like Fortune or Forbes or something else
>>
>>you make the call
>
>
>I'll make the call, Tim.
>I call that you extracted an article about finance from the finance section
>of Wired magazine to prove your point.
>
Actually, it was a random pick.
I went to www.wired.com
clicked on a random back issue
looked at the link called follow the money
and clicked on it
and found that article
very spontaneous and random
What I don't understand is why you think I have called wired bad.
Or for that matter why having articles on Ginsberg or Burroughs makes it not
a corporate establishment player?
I've read many of these links many times before. I remember reading the one
where you showed Ginsberg the web and he said he was glad he didn't know how
to do it.
That was fun.
We all appreciate your work.
>Yes, Wired runs articles about finance, which are - shockingly - about
>money, stocks, capitalism, corporations, and other items of interest to
>"suits." We also run articles about organizations like Free Speech TV
>(http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5683.html) who aim to tear
>down the monopoly of corporate media and put culture-making tools in the
>hands of non-corporate culturemakers like yourself. Does the Wall Street
>Journal do this?
>
>Did you even crack open any of those Beat links I sent before?
>
>Can you name another news organization that runs interviews with CEOs *and*
>hour-long audio broadcasts by Allen Ginsberg, Eno, and other luminaries,
>plus articles about Burroughs' one and only online appearance, plus
>everything else we cover, like the collaboration between Ginsberg and
>painter Francesco Clemente archived here
>(http://www.hotwired.com/workshop/95/49/index1a.html)?
>
>Somehow, though, I'd rather be talking about Burroughs.
>
>Steve Silberman
>
>
>**********************************
>Steve Silberman
>Senior Culture Writer
>WIRED News
> http://www.wired.com/
>***********************************
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:34:07 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199708052111.OAA16256@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 2:11 PM -0700 8/5/97, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>I remember laughing when Wired wrote up Levi's site Literary Kicks because
>in the write up they couldn't even tell the difference between his site done
>by him on charm.net with all the cool write ups and info levi did, and my
>site on a totally different server where I slapped up a bunch of Jack
>kerouac soundbites.
>
>This is the great Wired magazine the leader of the great digital cyber
>revolution and they couldn't even tell one web site from another?
>
>That sort of thing breeds cynicism.
Oh, I see. I (or another writer) followed a link on Levi's site into
another site, and got a URL wrong in an article, and thus the reputation of
Wired is down the tubes. Just wonderin' - did you email the author at the
time and tell him about the botched link, which can be fixed in an article
on the Web site in three minutes?
Of course, stewing in cynicism for an imagined target ("the leader of the
great digital cyber revolution") is more fun than simply correcting an
error. Call it "joie de vivre."
Regards,
Steve
**********************************
Steve Silberman
Senior Culture Writer
WIRED News
http://www.wired.com/
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:41:01 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199708052129.OAA18954@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tim wrote:
> Or for that matter why having articles on Ginsberg or Burroughs makes it not
a corporate establishment player?
And that's a very good point.
Somehow I dived into a flame war here, and I'm sorry. I'm also sorry if I
got that link wrong in whatever original article it was about Literary
Kicks, leaving Tim's site unacknowledged.
I need a rest. I've had too many father-figures die in the last year.
Carry on -
Steve Silberman
**********************************
Steve Silberman
Senior Culture Writer
WIRED News
http://www.wired.com/
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:41:40 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At 02:08 PM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Tim and everybody,
>
>I have no quarrel with your calling attention to the Corporate
>Interests, Power and Profits that Wired and Hot-wired represent. In fact
>it fascinated me from the very beginning of their explosive, leading
>edge creative innovations. What's happening here? The Well, Negraponte,
>Rheingold and Silberman or Dr. Weill invading corporate culture, or are
>they invaded by it? Who is exploiting whom here? Is it the revolutionary
>march that is infiltrating the mainstream power structure, or is it in
>the process of being swallowed by it? I am not putting either of these
>forces up or dow, like you observing in fascination, because I do no
>think the radical creative pioneering fringe is not in the same phase as
>the methodically efficient corporate systems. I watched Hot Wired in
>fascination and continue to do so. Their sight is one of the very best
>in my eyes, with the help of corporate resourcefulness I am sure.
>
>I thought you were kidding when you expressed surprise:
I didn't express surprise, just interest.
Your paragraph above I think is along the lines of my pseudothoughts.
>
>> Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>=20
>> Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such=
e-ink
>> to our old boy Bill.
>>=20
>> Not knocking it one way or the other, just observing.
>
>For god's sakes, this is the site that had the longest and best forum
>about Leary's last trip. They have always fearlessly promoted creativity
>in all its manifestations, open-mindedly giving expression to
>independent, controversial thought and experimentation aesthetically and
>otherwise. You really surprised at the e-ink ( I like this word. Are you
>coining it?) devoted to Burghs?
I was going to write inked but since it was not ink but pixesl I made upo
the term e-ink.
So I would take credit for coining it,
but,
I decided that I better check that out so I typed http://www.e-ink.com
to see what would happen
and there it was
the e-ink website
So it was original to me not wasn't original to the world.
Although, they are calling themselves electronic ink and claim to be
"Electric Ink=A9 is the new Electronic Printing & Publishing division of=
Pilot
Advertising=A9."
>
>I am just straightforwardly surprised at your surprise. No knocks. Next
>question: Is Hotwired Beat? No no. Nevermind.
>
>leon
>>=20
>> At 09:21 AM 8/5/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Burroughs Spun a Legacy of Naked Sense
>> >http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5771.html
>> >
>> >My story on the Net's response to William's death is on Wired News this
>> >morning. Levi Asher, Christian Crumlish, Malcolm Humes, Tim Franklin,=
and
>> >others are quoted. Please don't post the entire text to mailing lists=
for
>> >a day or so, but links are most welcome and appreciated. Thanks!
>> >
>> >
>> >Steve Silberman
>> >
>> >
>> >**********************************
>> >Steve Silberman
>> >Senior Culture Writer
>> >WIRED News
>> > http://www.wired.com/
>> >***********************************
>> >
>> >
>> .-
>
>
I must add though here at the bottom where no one will probably read it that
I find Negroponte, Reingold, Weill,
um, please forgive me for saying this, ach-hem, boring and well very nice
fellows I am sure. Nothing personal at all.
I do like Steve Silberman's pieces though.
I am surprised at how mainstream Andrew Weill has become though. Does he
cop to taking drugs when he goes on Oprah?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:49:10 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: he punched my ticket,
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> and my world exploded.
> furthur, wsb.
> and fare thee well
>
> special thoughts for all beat-l folks here everywhere who knew him well.
> mc
dear mc,
i will wax silly here, i have been posting to assorted people that i
have found to be thughtful and thought profoking, i have appreciated
your careful and imaginative posts. he punched my ticket too.
it is an interesting time here in lawrence, silly remarks in the
newspaper where they quote one girl as saying well i think its wierd he
was a small local celebrity and they are making a big deal out of it.
the lawrence journal world always finds a man in the street with an
understanding of a carrot and then quotes him. Lawrence was remarkable
for ignoring william, part jealousy part provicialism, it seemed to suit
william fine. he had a lot of personal freedom here, and many caring
people. the fact that one friend of mine totaled thirty major papers
carrying his death on the front page, around the world, seemed to take
the local celebrity remark away. i am amazed at the ease people form
oppinions about subjects that they know nothing about and then when the
oppinions are questioned start randomly coming up with arguments that
support the ill thought out oppinion. well, i quess i sound pretty weird
by now.
i am expecting charles plymell and race here sometime in the next couple
of days. i have lost it, the house is a mess and i suddenly started
cleaning all my cabinets, and cooking. A german genetic flaw that seems
to be one way of dealing with grief.
Jennif, if you are listening come by wed. for lunch around 1:))
i just made enough pasta salad and cherry pie for thirty.
i am being careful not to flame people because when i deal with death i
have anger that god knows where it comes from. i have been deleting all
of tims post because i suspect he quite innocently is 20.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:11:42 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Journey to the East - Soundtrack
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Every road trip needs a montage of music. Here is mine for tomorrow's
Journey to the East
LEAVING
1) Pack Up Your Sorrows - Richard and Mimi Farina
2) Williams Welcome (We're All Here to Go) WSB
3) Mothership Connection Starchild - George Clinton and the Pfunk All
Stars
4) Everybody Knows - Leonard Cohen
5) Western Lands (a dangerous road mix) WSB
6) Magic and Loss - Lou Reed
7) Imagine - John Lennon Live in NYC
8) Ah Pook the Destroyer/Brion Gysin's All Purpose Bedtime Story WSB
9) Ancestros - Andesmanta
ARRIVING
1) Magician - Lou Reed
2) The Sounds of the Universe Coming in my Window - Jack Kerouac
3) A Change is Gonna Come - Sam Cooke
4) Seven Souls WSB
5) Apocalypse WSB
6) Amazing Grace - Allen Ginsberg
7) End of Words WSB
8) Faith Interlude - Carlos Santana and Buddy Miles live in a volcano
9) Bye-Ya - Thelonius Monk
So hopefully this will get to dinner safe and sound (and sane).
Now i must do laundry
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:12:27 +0100
Reply-To: Brynjar Agnarsson <brynjar@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brynjar Agnarsson <brynjar@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject: introduction to myself
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi, thought I'd introduce myself,
My name is Brynjar and I am Icelandic but live in England. I'm a
student but trying to make it as a writer in Iceland, couple of little
things published first book in the works. Been on the list before but
leaft when I moved to Chile for one year, didn't participate much just
enjoyed the intelligent conversation. Joined again now after hearing
about Burroughs' death, just wanted to feel a part of a community of
people experiencing the same but will stick around again so thought I'd
say hi.
Brynjar
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:12:17 +0100
Reply-To: Brynjar Agnarsson <brynjar@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brynjar Agnarsson <brynjar@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject: wsb
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Feel a loss because of Burroughs death although nowhere near the loss
his friends must feel. The world needs people like wsb, an
inspirational and groundbreaking man of vision and as Mailer said
possessed by genious, he also warned of the powers of authority and all
malign influence by others on your actions.
Read that the compliment he held most dear was when Beckett called him a
writer and I don't think that I can add anything more to that, I grief
the loss of a writer but one that is immortal always here for guidance
towards the western lands and more importantly perhaps an inspiration
for greatness in other writers/artists, how many great writers are born
from the works of one great writers.
In 20 years time the children of my generation will be studying wsb's
works at school when his works find their niche in literature, whatever
you think of academia just think of how many people his works will
influence and how many people are already influenced by wsb now.
Well that thought kind of lessened my sense of loss.
Brynjar
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:39:11 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: western lands (1997)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I humbly submit this collage in honor of WSB:
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Western_lands2.html
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:43:17 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: cunyvm.bitnet: host
not found)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote:
>
> The original message was received at Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:48:17 -0500 (CDT)
> from dv126s33.lawrence.ks.us [24.124.33.126]
>
> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
> <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
>
> ----- Transcript of session follows -----
> 550 <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>... Host unknown (Name server: cunyvm.bitnet: host
not found)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Reporting-MTA: dns; challenge.sunflower.com
> Received-From-MTA: DNS; dv126s33.lawrence.ks.us
> Arrival-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:48:17 -0500 (CDT)
>
> Final-Recipient: RFC822; WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET
> Action: failed
> Status: 5.1.2
> Remote-MTA: DNS; cunyvm.bitnet
> Last-Attempt-Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:48:20 -0500 (CDT)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: subscribe for my other computer
> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 20:41:56 -0500
> From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@sunflower.com>
> To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
> References: <BEAT-L%1997071715340012@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>
> bill,
> i have tried to subscribe to the libeat list with my other computer and
> failed. can you help. it would be great if i could get two on line in
> time for tomorrow,
> wed.
> the email address is lena@sunflower.com
> if you tell me again what to do i will try again,
> patricia elliott marvin
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 19:31:31 -0700
Reply-To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
Subject: CBC Newsworld
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Just now watching an interview with Michael McClure and Ray Manzarek.
They're speaking of commercialism and the Beats (McClure doesn't like it but
admits he hasn't yet been approached). Manzarek describes commercial offers
for songs by "The Doors" to be associated with ridiculous products.
McClure describes Jim Morrison as the best poet of his generation. Clips
of McClure reading his poetry over Manzarek's piano playing are shown.
McClure speaks of the "biological" deepening of poetry coupled with music.
Manzarek recommends sticking with the tried-and-true psychedelic drugs of
the sixties for opening "the doors of perception". Just thought some of you
guys might be interested.
James M.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:37:07 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: CBC Newsworld
Comments: To: James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199708060231.TAA16941@freya.van.hookup.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, James William Marshall wrote:
> Clips of McClure reading his poetry over Manzarek's piano playing are shown.
Did you ever hear "Love Lion"? It's gooood...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 20:58:21 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy,
What is your point here?
Is Wired guilty because they actually mention money and financial
markets? Is this some sort of kiddie porn to you or what? You don't
use money, have no stock portfolio or pension plan, don't buy anything
made by a "corporate" organization? Economics are verbotin?
It was nice having Silberman on the list--hope he doesn't feel too
burned and leave.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:08:11 EST
Reply-To: DUST MY BROOM <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DUST MY BROOM <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: The Final Ride
William Burroughs was a Johnson among shits. We won't see his kind again for a
long while. Anyway, while looking through an old literary magazine called
MAINSTREAM, I found an early poem published by Richard Brautigan. This mag came
out in 1957. I would like to pass on Brautigan's poem in memory of William
Burroughs. It is called; THE FINAL RIDE
The act of dying
is like hitch-hiking
into a strange town
late at night
where it is cold
and raining,
and you are alone
again.
Suddenly
all of the street lamps
go out
and everything
becomes dark,
so dark
that even the buildings
are afraid
of one another.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 00:18:05 -0700
Reply-To: mike@infinet.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>
Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Beats across America "On the Road!"
Comments: To: mike@buchenroth.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Charles Plymell is on the road to Lawrence,KS. For photo of Charles and
Beth at ML Buchenroth's visit www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
Next stop is Patricia Elliott's ...
***
I now have my own server with a direct T1 connection to web and
abundantly more hard drive space for file storage. The domain name
remains the same, however, I now have a permanant IP at
203.103.235.51
In addition to previous methods, you can now access Charles' web site at
203.103.235.51/cplymell.html
or go directly to above IP, then select Charles' icon linked...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:08:41 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: The Final Ride
In-Reply-To: <009B8585.4A50B720.1@kenyon.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:08 PM -0700 8/5/97, DUST MY BROOM wrote:
> of one another.
and shotguns!
>
>
>
> Dave B.
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 22:12:24 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Beats across America "On the Road!"
In-Reply-To: <33E8252D.21FF@buchenroth.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:18 AM -0700 8/6/97, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
> www.buchenroth.com/cplymell.html
which yielded this shotgun! gem:
a Loaded
Gun by Emily
Dickinson
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My Life has stood - a Loaded Gun -
In corners - till a Day
The Owner passed - identified -
And carried Me away -
And now We roam in Sovereign Woods -
And now We hunt the Doe -
And every time I speak for Him -
The Mountains straight reply -
And do I smile, such cordial light
Upon the Valley glow -
It is as a Vesuvian face
Had let its pleasure through -
And when a Night - Our good Day done -
I guard My Master's Head -
'Tis better than the Eider-Duck's
Deep Pillow - to have shared
To foe of His - I'm deadly foe -
None stir the second time -
On whom I lay a Yellow Eye -
Or an emphatic Thumb -
Though I than He - may longer live
He longer must - than I -
For I have but the power to kill,
Without - the power to die
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 06:48:39 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
In-Reply-To: <33E7F65D.3927@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
james stauffer wrote:
>It was nice having Silberman on the list--hope he doesn't feel too
>burned and leave.
>
yes, i agree james and hello steve: i met you at the ddn weekend last
summer. sure hope you pull up a chair and stay.
in my opinion wired and hotwired are two of the most provocative and
breaking wave of blending online with 3D world and with a philosophy which
is anything but 'corporate'
hey tim: chill out for a while, could you?
thanks
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:10:58 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: lawrence
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
there were tear drops from salina to wamego and then there was a pink
sunrise. yes david has arrived. Both computers work, i have recieved
calls from across the country and now i know the answer should you call
or are you bothering them, and it is call.
it is clear here, i found the living room floor and don't know if my
housekeeping is at all bear related, suspect it isn't.
Lamb and rhubarb pie was williams favorite, i use to split a pie , half
for william and half for my mother, they both thought they were missing
half a pie.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 06:01:17 -0700
Reply-To: Lena <lena@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lena <lena@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Journey to the East - The drive
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
So perhaps perfectly perhaps not, my drive began up Ohio street which is
named after a state that will house the archives of William S. Burroughs
- at least as I understand it - and a train was running through at six
plus a few in the morning and it was going all the way through for what
seemed like hours but not really and the posts lifted for me to drive
forward to the mecca of kansas as the soundtrack began William
Burrough's voice telling of the journey to the Western Lands.
I stopped in Abilene the sight of the last major world figure i had
mourned when i was eight years old and went to Eisenhower's funeral and
i thought to myself that some times folks are so far away from each
other that they almost touch buttocks. I bought some caffeine and some
postcards of Ike and the woman at the checkout asked me if something was
wrong with my eyes - apparently thrown by the presence of purple
sunglasses at six forty-five in the morning - i said i was in mourning.
She said that is always tough. I said that last funeral i went to was
Eisenhower's. She didn't ask who died. In the land where we believe
that Ike is still president, purple sunglasses in the morning and the
mention of Ike's funeral can really throw them off.
I moved along to the soundtrack through the words and the music when Lou
Reed sang of clouds disappearing in Magician the teardrops of rain began
to end somewhere past Council Grove where the Indians met and before
Wamego where i'm certain something happened. I stopped somewhere near
Paxico and asked if they had a black tie for sale. They didn't.
The second trip through Western Lands on the soundtrack hit just as i
was running through that hole of a capital city Topeka during what
amounts to rush hour for a place in Kansas. This time the travels were
more dangerous fitting the subtitle to the soundtrack's subtitle.
Apocalypse made me laugh. And from then on it was all smiles with a
pinkish sunrise gliding into the skies somewhere near Lecompton in the
distance. I think Lecompton was the capitol once. (I have now spelled
capital/ol both ways so that one will be correct).
I am now safely at the Beat-Hotel with coffee and will visit before
going to visit Calamity at his office.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:42:52 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Yage Memorial Cut-up Poem
Myth of White God
Pisco neuritis
cold water infusion
blue flashes and slight nausea
Ayuhuasca (Yage)
Naked propaganda falling in dead silence
Hello Joe
Fucky, fucky
louche Peruvian bistros
The End Of The Road
As ever, William
to those of you in Kansas - please bid him a fond farewell for me...
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 23:52:17 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: next reading project
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
What do all of you think about next attempting a group reading of Naked
Lunch, Howl, and On the Road simultaneously. With the deaths of Ginsberg
and Burroughs in such a short period of time and the anniversary of the
publishing of On the Road coming up, it seemed to me kind of appropriate
to touch the roots of how beat began and see how these three works, all
published in the mid/late fifties are similar/different in their themes.
Are any of you interested?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:50:48 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Journey to the East - The drive
Comments: To: Lena <lena@SUNFLOWER.COM>
In-Reply-To: <33E873AE.356@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Lena wrote:
> So perhaps perfectly perhaps not, my drive began up Ohio street which is
> named after a state that will house the archives of William S. Burroughs
6 Aug 97 in Ohio is where
the sunflower in my backyard
planted after Ginsberg's death
has finally begun to bloom.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:25:48 -0700
Reply-To: Lena <lena@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lena <lena@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Journey to the East - The drive
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael Stutz wrote:
>
> On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Lena wrote:
>
> > So perhaps perfectly perhaps not, my drive began up Ohio street which is
> > named after a state that will house the archives of William S. Burroughs
>
> 6 Aug 97 in Ohio is where
> the sunflower in my backyard
> planted after Ginsberg's death
> has finally begun to bloom.
And since the Sunflower is the state flower in kansas, if i look closely
for the right patch of sunflowers along ohio street, i will certainly
find another vortex to something ... who knows what it will be !!!!
david rhaesa
salina (in lawrence), Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 08:59:44 -0700
Reply-To: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: next reading project
Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33E81F21.51DD@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I'm up for Diane's suggested reading. I have silently started reading On
the Road for the first time as a great bang way to start my 27th year.
-shannon (in Tucson where it is not quite as hot but strangely humid for
Arizona.)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:05:00 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Journey to the East - The drive
Comments: To: Lena <lena@sunflower.com>
In-Reply-To: <33E8896B.5DA9@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Lena wrote:
> And since the Sunflower is the state flower in kansas, if i look closely
> for the right patch of sunflowers along ohio street, i will certainly
> find another vortex to something ... who knows what it will be !!!!
To the same recursive golden clime I will find looking at my backyard
Sunflower! Go for the vortex!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 09:50:17 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:48 AM 8/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>james stauffer wrote:
>>It was nice having Silberman on the list--hope he doesn't feel too
>>burned and leave.
>>
>yes, i agree james and hello steve: i met you at the ddn weekend last
>summer. sure hope you pull up a chair and stay.
>in my opinion wired and hotwired are two of the most provocative and
>breaking wave of blending online with 3D world and with a philosophy which
>is anything but 'corporate'
>hey tim: chill out for a while, could you?
No,
corporate is not derogatory.
Steve is not scared off.
I will chill in that I will point folks back to Leon's message of yesterday
for the overview of the topic.
I think this brings up a bigger question to me.
Why is everyone so afraid of being labeled "corporate"? Why is this
considered such an evil thing?
To thineownselfbetrue
>thanks
>mc
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:23:36 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199708061650.JAA17766@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tim:
>Why is everyone so afraid of being labeled "corporate"? Why is this
>considered such an evil thing?
Tim, it's not a big mystery why the discussion took off on this track. No
one denies that Wired magazine has corporate ads and whiteboy CEO
interviews up the yin/yang. It's that in your original post, you wrote -
> Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
to our old boy Bill.
...which placed honoring Bill's work, and covering the Beats, at the
opposite end of some imaginary axis from being "the epitome of the
corporate establishment." The corporate/Beat dichotomy in this thread
began here, with this post.
As many people - even you - pointed out later, the idiosyncracy of Wired is
that it covers *both* corporate and creative worlds. I got so pissed off
because I busted my butt injecting extensive Beat coverage into Wired News
- so much so, it's been the only dependable source of frequent Beat updates
among majornews sites. I did this because I saw a continuity between Beat
and cyber communities, as I explain somewhere in a long tedious interview
ith me archived here:
http://www.faludi.com/upstart/archive/arch_2.html
(Excerpt:
"Poet Michael McClure, one of the original Beats, once told me, 'The Beats
gave one another
permission to be excellent.' I think that's exactly what's happening in
Multimedia Gulch. We're giving
each other permission to be excellent, and helping one another to realize
our visions.
And just as the Beat 'vision' was not one standardized party line, there's
no one party line that's
driving the Net forward. William Burroughs, being a proto-cyberpunk,
science-fiction queer, had a
very different vision than Jack Kerouac, who was a football-playing,
lyrical, Thomas Wolfe-like poet
in prose. They had very individual visions, but they had a shared sense of
mission. I think that's what's
happening with the Web and in Net culture: Individual geniuses working
together so that they can
each express their own particular flavor of genius.")
So - I think it's important to honor your concerns about Wired being
corporate, and your interesting observation that corporate & Cool are no
longer as estranged as they once were, hard to tell the difference these
days, after all, even WSB did Nike ads, so where does that leave us, etc.
And it's also important not to be reductive about Wired.
That's all.
Steve Silberman
**********************************
Steve Silberman
Senior Culture Writer
WIRED News
http://www.wired.com/
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:01:01 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Comments: To: Steve Silberman <digaman@wired.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yeah
Just a couple things on the side.
If you remember Millbrook belonged to a coroporate heir. He gave use of it
to the Leary group. Mellon said he was involved with LSD so he could learn
how to make more money on the market.
Back in 84 in the pre-monkey business TKO days I remember talking to a
friend about Gary Hart(pence). As I recall it was something about my friend
saying Hart was a typical politican guy, same ol same ol, and I said
something like but he's friends with Hunter Thompson, to which my friend
replied, "sure, he's hip..."
Que se yo?
At 10:23 AM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Tim:
>
>>Why is everyone so afraid of being labeled "corporate"? Why is this
>>considered such an evil thing?
>
>
>Tim, it's not a big mystery why the discussion took off on this track. No
>one denies that Wired magazine has corporate ads and whiteboy CEO
>interviews up the yin/yang. It's that in your original post, you wrote -
>
>> Interesting that the epitome of the corporate establishment gives such e-ink
>to our old boy Bill.
>
>...which placed honoring Bill's work, and covering the Beats, at the
>opposite end of some imaginary axis from being "the epitome of the
>corporate establishment." The corporate/Beat dichotomy in this thread
>began here, with this post.
>
>As many people - even you - pointed out later, the idiosyncracy of Wired is
>that it covers *both* corporate and creative worlds. I got so pissed off
>because I busted my butt injecting extensive Beat coverage into Wired News
>- so much so, it's been the only dependable source of frequent Beat updates
>among majornews sites. I did this because I saw a continuity between Beat
>and cyber communities, as I explain somewhere in a long tedious interview
>ith me archived here:
>
>http://www.faludi.com/upstart/archive/arch_2.html
>
>(Excerpt:
>
>"Poet Michael McClure, one of the original Beats, once told me, 'The Beats
>gave one another
>permission to be excellent.' I think that's exactly what's happening in
>Multimedia Gulch. We're giving
>each other permission to be excellent, and helping one another to realize
>our visions.
>And just as the Beat 'vision' was not one standardized party line, there's
>no one party line that's
>driving the Net forward. William Burroughs, being a proto-cyberpunk,
>science-fiction queer, had a
>very different vision than Jack Kerouac, who was a football-playing,
>lyrical, Thomas Wolfe-like poet
>in prose. They had very individual visions, but they had a shared sense of
>mission. I think that's what's
>happening with the Web and in Net culture: Individual geniuses working
>together so that they can
>each express their own particular flavor of genius.")
>
>So - I think it's important to honor your concerns about Wired being
>corporate, and your interesting observation that corporate & Cool are no
>longer as estranged as they once were, hard to tell the difference these
>days, after all, even WSB did Nike ads, so where does that leave us, etc.
>
>And it's also important not to be reductive about Wired.
>
>That's all.
>
>
>Steve Silberman
>
>
>
>
>
>**********************************
>Steve Silberman
>Senior Culture Writer
>WIRED News
> http://www.wired.com/
>***********************************
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:42:19 -0400
Reply-To: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Subject: Signed Beat Posters
I am selling several signed Beat Posters. These include Ginsberg, Corso,
Burroughs and Ferlinghetti. Email me privately at Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us
Thanks!
Paul
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:10:19 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Trivia answers
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
A few days ago i was asking some questions for fun.
1. "I can goof if I want to"--where was this quote from.
A: Visions of Cody by Jack kerouac. It is the first line of one section
near the end of the book. (pg 3489 maybe but don't quote me on that).
2. What is ayahuasca?
A: Ayahuasca is the vine where the concoction/potion/drug Yage is derived.
(Burroughs and Ginsberg, as you all know, published some of their
correspondences as The Yage Letters--these letters being written around the
time Burroughs went to S. America to find some of this potion).
I was inspired to ask the question when one fellow here posted with the
email name YageCola.
I guess no one wins the jackpot this week. That means it carries over.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:32:14 -0400
Reply-To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>
Subject: Re: next reading project
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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A "monumental" task to our dear and departed. I've got to get my
hands on the Annotated Howl though. Anyone got any ideas where I can
get one quick (or a spare one to sell?).
Will we approach this chapter by chapter or book by book?
I'm contemplating a public reading of OTR here in the Denver/Colorado
Springs area in early September if anyone would like to join in the
planning.....
love and lilies,
matt
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: next reading project
Author: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET> at Internet
Date: 8/5/97 11:52 PM
What do all of you think about next attempting a group reading of Naked
Lunch, Howl, and On the Road simultaneously. With the deaths of Ginsberg
and Burroughs in such a short period of time and the anniversary of the
publishing of On the Road coming up, it seemed to me kind of appropriate
to touch the roots of how beat began and see how these three works, all
published in the mid/late fifties are similar/different in their themes.
Are any of you interested?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:20:56 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: For Brian Kirchhoff: Don't be discouraged
Comments: To: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970802153711_412946850@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Arthur--
I have a few comments regarding what you wrote last Saturday in a post
directed to Brian and his frustration with _The Ticket That Exploded_ and
Uncle Bill's cutup process.
> Conceptually, it's a fascinating and thought-provoking idea- Writing was 50
> years behind painting, as BG pointed out, and the techniques of collage and
> other methods that were well-established in the visual arts were overdue to
> be applied to writing.
Well, a question for you and anyone else who might be able to answer: what
was the state of painting 50 years from _today_? Or 25 years ago or even
_right now_, for that matter? I wonder if the answer to that question could
yield any interesting ideas for directions in writing. I wonder if print
advertising follows painting trends, at least in part; I can find examples
that borrow from the painting techniques of 75 years past -- take, for
example, the Mondrian-esque packaging on the Iomega Zip drives or the "This
is not a pipe" irony of many magazine ads.
> WSB contributed his own uniquely brilliant ideas
> about the nature of the cutup process- he believes that it is a way of
> subverting the pre-recorded nature of the universe, and that it is closer to
> the experience of real life as one walks down the street, etc. than regular
> linear writing . He also believes that from time to time, a door into a
> prophetic, supernatural dimension is opened by application of the process,
> and has cited instances where this was the case. My own occasional
> experiments with cutups seem to bear this out. Amidst the fragmented
> gibberish is an occasional phrase that may be the product of "the third mind"
> as WSB & BG would say, more interesting and spookily insightful than the
> whole piece from which the cutup was made. Now, this is all very well and I
> highly respect the ideas behind cutups, but, as I'm sure you percieved while
> throwing TTTE across the room, the results of this method are for the most
> part incomprehensible, a test of endurance to actually READ and not just
> admire the philosophy behind.
So then, what role can cutups currently play in writing? Burroughs produced
texts using this technique that were, for all purposes, practically
_unreadable_. I did trudge through some, but it was difficult. However,
there were some enlightening passages, products of the "third mind," as you
say. And regardless of readability, his texts stretched the limit of what
could be called "writing."
Surely, Burroughs' own works such as _The Soft Machine_ still have immmense
value; put these texts into a computer and further experiments could be made
with his work -- cutup these old texts in new ways, find patterns in them
only discernible through use of computer, etc. But if a _new_ text were to
be created using the cutup technique, what of its literary value? For
example, I have been performing experiments with cutups using my computer,
as described in a previous post. On one, I used the phrase "Allen Ginsberg"
and had the computer output all the possible combinations of those
characters that formed known word combinations. The resultant output was
_huge_, just pages of gibberish. I did sift through it and find these
phrases most interesting:
genres nag bill
beginners gall
bells enraging
balling greens
brings neal gel
These five phrases interested me most when I first looked through that file.
But thinking about this, I believe there is great value to work produced via
the cutup method above and beyond these "third mind" phrases, simply because
_the importance of any one phrase will change over time_. In fact, I believe
this was a major point Burroughs was making with his work, expounded upon in
_Painting and Guns_. For Burroughs, the entire Universe was alive -- not
just us animals and the plants we eat, but all of stinking Universe was a
living process. And he demonstrated this via his cutup texts, splattered
paintings and shotgun holes -- all of which, when looked at in certain ways,
are indistinguishable from things in nature, such as the stars in the sky or
microscopic views of pond water or whatever. Other 20th century explorers
have demonstrated this too, most notably in my mind right now John Cage (his
music is every-sound), Alan Watts (lectured about Pollack paintings looking
like nature) and Buckminster Fuller (~"Mankind will find that the lines
between the animate and the inanimate will continually decrease"). But the
point is, I think, that this work is potent not just in its sifted "finds"
from any one viewpoint/moment, but as a whole -- what makes sense today
might not tomorrow, and vicey versey. Eh?
> As for NL itself,
> although some commentators have incorrectly identified it as a cutup work, it
> is not. Although the episodes are arranged in a non-linear way and, as the
> author himself notes near the end of the book, can be re-arranged into
> infinite variations by the reader with no "beginning" or "ending" in the
> accepted sense, the episodes and phrases themselves have not been cutup and
> are comprehensible.
This, again, would make for a great Web project. A gentleman by the name of
Luke Kelly has been performing some impressive research in this department,
observeable at <http://www.bigtable.com/research/>. Unfortunately, I have
not succeeded in making contact with Luke. From that page:
_PROJECT:_
REVERSE COMPILING BURROUGHS' WORD HOARD
Verion 1.0, _Naked Lunch_
_PURPOSE:_
_Naked Lunch_ contains multiple reference points, _flashpoints_, which
propell the reader forward and backward through time and space.
Using cutups and other montage techniques, Burroughs has
effectively created a work that can be "intersected at any point."
The ultimate goal of the project is to locate flashpoints and
recycled cutup fragments throughout Burroughs' work, in effect
locating the _wordholes_ in His Universe.
Interesting note: when you go through a Burroughs wordhole, the
context is not always the same . . . like a dream. For a good
example, look at the hyenas:Scandenavians wordhole-- 39 and
122.
_METHOD:_
The works are methodically scanned and converted to plain vanilla
ASCII text. Next, they are parsed through several programs,
locating patterns. The patterns are then analyzed by machine and
human to locate significant patterns.
Finally, that Burroughs had the kind of foresight to create and experiment
with this kind of work when he did is why I consider him to be a
proto-cypherpunk (of which _Eletronic Revolution_ is practically a training
manual).
onNow: Orbital, _Snivilisation_. I feel like it's 1994 all over again.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:45:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: annotated howl, OTR reruns and other such stuff
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
matt wrote:
A "monumental" task to our dear and departed. I've got to get my
hands on the Annotated Howl though. Anyone got any ideas where I can
get one quick (or a spare one to sell?).
___________
the beats are much more likely to be found at barnes & noble than not.
however, since we have stalwart jeff from waterrow you may be able to email
order. jeff? you there?
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:57:44 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Trivia answers
Comments: To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> A few days ago i was asking some questions for fun.
>
> 1. "I can goof if I want to"--where was this quote from.
>
> A: Visions of Cody by Jack kerouac. It is the first line of one section
> near the end of the book. (pg 3489 maybe but don't quote me on that).
>
> 2. What is ayahuasca?
>
> A: Ayahuasca is the vine where the concoction/potion/drug Yage is derived.
> (Burroughs and Ginsberg, as you all know, published some of their
> correspondences as The Yage Letters--these letters being written around the
> time Burroughs went to S. America to find some of this potion).
>
> I was inspired to ask the question when one fellow here posted with the
> email name YageCola.
>
> I guess no one wins the jackpot this week. That means it carries over.
> .-
Hey - Sherri got the yage!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 14:04:46 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: For Brian Kirchhoff: Don't be discouraged
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael writ:
<<
>> Conceptually, it's a fascinating and thought-provoking idea- Writing was
>>50
>> years behind painting, as BG pointed out, and the techniques of collage and
>> other methods that were well-established in the visual arts were overdue to
>> be applied to writing.
>
>Well, a question for you and anyone else who might be able to answer: what
>was the state of painting 50 years from _today_? Or 25 years ago or even
>_right now_, for that matter? I wonder if the answer to that question could
>yield any interesting ideas for directions in writing. I wonder if print
>advertising follows painting trends, at least in part; I can find examples
>that borrow from the painting techniques of 75 years past -- take, for
>example, the Mondrian-esque packaging on the Iomega Zip drives or the "This
>is not a pipe" irony of many magazine ads.
>>
Well, without any textbooks handy, let me say that 50 years ago, in
1946, I would say that post-WWII art was just happening. That's how
it's commonly broken up in art historical circles (pre-1945 and
post-1945). In America (and abroad) Abstract Expressionism was on the
rise. The New York School. A bunch of men who loved to smoke, drink,
and live the hard life. That was the lifestyle. that was the theory.
Interesting to hear you cite Pollack in a 'natural' context. This is a
recent development, me thinks. Usually, one gets the Rothko crossover,
where all kinetic and spurious motions are considered suicidal and
depressing. Interesting thing about Pollack, is that before he
discovered drip paintings, he did a series of 'myth' paintings. More
iconic in form. Perhaps, one could argue that the location of
abstraction in the medium (vs a conceptual formalism) between painting
and writing is the critical issue to focus in on??
I don't know much about the history of print advertising, but magazines
such as Vanity Fair, Vogue, and Harper's Bazaar have in the last 5-10
years really upped the ante as far as quality of photographs go. It's
not uncommon to see a lot of fashion and fine photographers mixing their
fields. Annie Leibovitz is a good example; I have 2 fine WSB pictures
from Vanity Fair hanging on my office wall.
25 years ago, 1974, hm, I'm not sure what would have been big. Right at
the tail end of pop art? Feminism, minimalism? What was happening in
Europe? Robert Rauschenberg has always been a favorite of mine.
Regarding theory of writing and art, I wish I could say more. There
always seems to be someone somewhere who is quote unquote before their
time. Look at James Joyce. It's hard to say, generally speaking. and
then, don't forget film either. It pleases me that you recognize print
>advertising as an "art" media. Lots of people don't.
and regarding those "ce n'est pas un[e?] pipe" (Magritte) ads, there are
also lots of Warhol (banana), Woods (American Gothic), and Lichenstein
(comics) ripoffs. In general, I think David Carson and a lot of other
"unintelligible" graphic designers have led a recent wave of "media
catchup". And to hook in a recent thread, Wired magazine usually has
some <ahem> groovy stuff.
>generally speaking Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 05:27:20 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Timothy K. Gallagher wrote:
> Why is everyone so afraid of being labeled "corporate"? Why is this
> considered such an evil thing?
I think it goes back to the beat writers themselves, Kerouac's insistence
that the American dream was somehow doomed, Ginsberg's vision of Molach
in Howl,
"Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton
treasuries! blind capitals! demonic industries! spectral nations!
invincible madhouses! granite cocks! monstrous bombs!
They broke their backs lifting Molach to Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios,
tons! lifting the city to Heaven which exists and is everywhere about
us!"
And even Burroughs who left America to do much of his writing in Mexico
and Tangiers. The idea of corporate America is linked to money and
possessions, America building bombs but not feeding her hungry.
Corporate America was much of what the beats stood outside of, unwilling
to be a part of. At the same time, later in their lives, both Ginsberg
and Burroughs found that they could use corporate America to their
benefit. It's the difference, I think, between being young and idealistic
and older and idealistic. I think they realized that there was nothing
wrong with using corporate America, money and self-promotion to a certain
extent, to get across their ideas. Why not use American money to
change American civilization. It is the same way with any publication,
any magazine. Ads from corporate America pay the bills. One hand pats
the other. It is their money that allows words to be published, that
allow our freedom to write about the beats, to know their ideas and have
those ideas reach immortality. We should applaud any publication like
Wired, which gives space to ideas that matter. The good side of corporate
is the money that affords writers and artists a way to say whatever they
want, gives magazines and to publishers the means to devote space to
writers and works that are experimental and/or outside of the mainstream.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:11:14 -0400
Reply-To: Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Intro
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I'm not sure if it is the tradition here, but since I'm new to the list, I
thought I'd introduce myself.
My name is Judith. I'm a hippie wildchild sliding downhill toward
cronehood. I've read every written word by and about the Beats I've been
able to locate. I'm madly in love with the Jack Kerouac that exists in the
first 96 pages of Desolation Angels, and spend way too much time re-reading
his words.
I live in the booming metropolis of Talking Rock, Georgia (pop. 66 people,
10,000,000 chickens, and 721 hound dogs) where I'm sideway supervising
while my spousal unit builds us a solar powered geodesic dome on 13 acres
of wooded mountain top.
This week, I've been very sad about the passing of Mr. Burroughs. Spent
the evening yesterday listening to all my WSB spoken word CD's and wishing
he could have stayed another 83 years.
I'm very happy to have found this mailing list, and will probably spend
most of my time listening respectfully and learning all I can.
Judith
aka Book Woman
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2097 23:18:27 +0200
Reply-To: Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dufour <dufour@ULISSE.IT>
Subject: Hallo!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hallo!
I'm a new user from Italy, delused for the poor information about the death
of WSB here in Italy.
If there are other italians on this list, please e-mail me!!!
We should try to do something against this "annus horribilis" for the beat
generation.
F.D.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:45:43 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: For Brian Kirchhoff: Don't be discouraged
Comments: To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970806210446Z-5563@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Penn, Douglas, K wrote:
> Perhaps, one could argue that the location of abstraction in the medium
> (vs a conceptual formalism) between painting and writing is the critical
> issue to focus in on??
This may be a good way to put it. I don't intend to start drawing hard lines
and us coming up with serious maxims about all this, but it may prove
interesting to observe what some of their techniques were/are at an abstract
level and see how that could be applied to writing and other forms.
It seems interesting to me to see where abstract principles are borrowed
from one form to create work in another -- such as Keroauc's "jazz writing."
Is the 90s indie rock rennaissance helping to create a net-based pantheon of
indie literature? I think so. What else, and where will it go?
> Regarding theory of writing and art, I wish I could say more. There
> always seems to be someone somewhere who is quote unquote before their
> time. Look at James Joyce. It's hard to say, generally speaking. and
> then, don't forget film either. It pleases me that you recognize print
> advertising as an "art" media. Lots of people don't.
Well, I do and I don't. Advertising is a now-necessary energy-gathering tool
for the Corporate Virus. It was not always here, and it will not always be.
The interesting thing about advertising is the advanced mind-control
techniques that have been put into play, as well as the ad's use of what we
humans call "art." Put the art in the ad as bait. So yeah, lots of "art"
appears in ads.
m
<http://dsl.org/m/> Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is
email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long
as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO
WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:41:43 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: On the Road movie
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970806173351.435L-100000@devel.nacs.net>
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Has anyone heard anything more about the major motion picture version of
"On the Road" being produced and directed by Francis Ford Coppola? I
thought the original idea was to have the film out this year for the
fortieth anniversary of the OTR publication (and 75th of JK's birth), but
havent even heard if its in production yet.
I know Coppola wrote the script adaptation and wanted Leonardo DiCaprio
to play Kerouac/Sal Paradise. Anyone heard anything else about it?
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 18:43:37 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: next reading project
Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33E81F21.51DD@together.net>
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On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> What do all of you think about next attempting a group reading of Naked
> Lunch, Howl, and On the Road simultaneously. With the deaths of Ginsberg
> and Burroughs in such a short period of time and the anniversary of the
> publishing of On the Road coming up, it seemed to me kind of appropriate
> to touch the roots of how beat began and see how these three works, all
> published in the mid/late fifties are similar/different in their themes.
> Are any of you interested?
> DC
>
Or could do a Burroughs retrospective and read "Junkie", "Queer" and
"Naked Lunch", clearly his three most important works, simultaneously.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:11:01 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: next reading project
Comments: To: MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@usoc.org>
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I just read Howl the day Ginsburg died, if there is an annotated
version on the net, I would like to read it. It was hilarious
without total understanding, it has to be better with understanding.
Mike Rice
At 10:32 AM 8/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
> A "monumental" task to our dear and departed. I've got to get my
> hands on the Annotated Howl though. Anyone got any ideas where I can
> get one quick (or a spare one to sell?).
>
> Will we approach this chapter by chapter or book by book?
>
> I'm contemplating a public reading of OTR here in the Denver/Colorado
> Springs area in early September if anyone would like to join in the
> planning.....
>
> love and lilies,
>
> matt
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: next reading project
>Author: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET> at Internet
>Date: 8/5/97 11:52 PM
>
>
>What do all of you think about next attempting a group reading of Naked
>Lunch, Howl, and On the Road simultaneously. With the deaths of Ginsberg
>and Burroughs in such a short period of time and the anniversary of the
>publishing of On the Road coming up, it seemed to me kind of appropriate
>to touch the roots of how beat began and see how these three works, all
>published in the mid/late fifties are similar/different in their themes.
> Are any of you interested?
>DC
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:20:39 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: next reading project
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970806184237.21946B-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
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i've just started re-reading 'queer' so the burroughs trio has my vote.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 07:48:18 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: next reading project
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> MATT HANNAN wrote:
>
> Will we approach this chapter by chapter or book by book?
I already have gotten a lot of mail backchannel as well as on the list
from people who want to do this and are ready to start. I think that a
simultaneous reading would be the most interesting and lend itself most
to comparisons. OTR is divided into three parts, with several chapters
in each part; Naked Lunch seems to have chapters (or at least bold
headers); and Howl has three parts. With many people on the list having
read more of one person than another, I think we should strive to have an
ongoing dialogue of all three works at the same time. Simply preface
posts with H:, NL: or OTR: to give the comments some sort of structure
when picking them out of the daily flow of mail. It also seems that a
lot of people can throw in stuff from letters, biographies, etc. that
open up the text to different levels. Naked Lunch is probably the
hardest to get at style-wise, so maybe Arthur can repost some of the
stuff he said earlier or compose something new about how we can approach
this (and also taking into consideration that many of us don't have the
cd of Burroughs reading it). So, let's go about buying or borrowing the
needed texts and get this thing going in a couple days.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 20:21:38 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: next reading project
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970806184237.21946B-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
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On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> Or could do a Burroughs retrospective and read "Junkie", "Queer" and
> "Naked Lunch", clearly his three most important works, simultaneously.
How do Junky and Queer rate as his most important works over Cities of the
Red Night, Place of Dead Roads, and The Western Lands? Or the cut-up
trilogy? Perhaps Junky and Queer are his most accessible, but I also find
them the least interesting (with the exception of the preface for Queer,
which is one of the most important self-reflections about Burroughs'
motivations for writing re: Joan).
Neil
----------------------------------------------------------------
"A writer's will is the winds of dead calm in The Western Lands."
Walk well in The Western Lands William Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:02:40 +0900
Reply-To: rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: Refractions On The Passing Of Uncle Bill
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Guns slip into holsters of slick leather, like cocks into greased and
nameless arseholes. Butts carved from rich black ebony, inlaid with elegant
cameos of naked boys, crafted from mother-of-pearl. Barrels worn smooth
from use, the bluing worn from sights and muzzles. Holsters, simple flaps
of leather, not the vulgar tie-downs used by those who merely kill. Random
images flash down the corridors of time, lodging at intervals in the brain.
Rolled them up in a sheet of oiled paper, to preserve them against the rust
of time - already a fine patina of corrosion had formed on them. Memories
fade and flicker, dim with age, burn out neuron like neuron, like talent.
Dream shadows, black and white swirls of Freewheelin' Bob's weenie.
Typewriters filled with shredded wheat, coffee beans roasted over a candle,
rivulets of squalid semen flowing down from greedy urchins' mouths - some
old queen's come the last hot food they taste. Open the soap ducts - Dutch
Schulzts's voice calls from the 20's - cries for French Canadian Bean Soup
go unheeded. Dry dust bellows from collapsing lungs, as cows push through
gaps in temporary enclosure - are they too caged? Come dancing, who thinks
of these names? As penance, David had to collect an hundred foreskins,
before he became leader of the Israelites - he brought back two hundred
Philistine prepuces, founding the Hebrew nation on dicks. Probably bit them
off, like the pissy queen the gentiles always portrayed him as. Sling
straps break, a penchant for all things cavalry ends a monarch's reign,
Russia decays in a morass of serfdom. Garland's voice, sweet and sorrowful,
echoes from the stereo - freed from the aged, bloated, drunk and drugged
body that came to house it. Passed the taste for booze and pills on to her
daughter, transferred the allegiance of gays from one generation to the next.
Pain trapped on the sensitised cells of drink affected neurons - surfacing
only when required, just in time to fuck all over again the object of hate,
the object of love. Burning bushed give false advice, call for the
sacrifice of children, ridicule their audience, then extinguish in a puff
of self-satisfied smoke, smell of dead leaves, the whistle of trains.
Distracted by interruptions, disturbed by random visitors who come and go,
clutching carriers of Yiddish loaves, shiny discs and sipping sugared
caffeine. McCarthyism rears its ugly head, and I am entreated to trust in
medications prescribed and proscribed by street medics. Placental blood
stains the sheet of calculations, then they are hurled from a window -
clocks stopping at 8.15, fixed by the rapid division of an atom. Peroxided
hair settles into place, framing the white face, red lips of a long dead
Goddess.
Distant - always distant. Conversations held seemingly by semaphore
signals, stilted and disjointed, halting. Ground zero impact - flesh boils
from the very framework of human bodies, shadows are etched forever on
walls. We have become destroyers of worlds, said Oppenheimer, daddy of the
all encompassing death used twice. They bred - more ugly with each passing
generation, able to fracture the every existence with their intensity....
Faces melting, merging, flowing like warm plasticine, before they are
consumed by the wall of flames. the very air itself burns, pulling the
oxygen from the still breathing lungs. No other species systematically
tries to destroy themselves, nor succeeds like us. An in built genetic flaw
- the altruistic gene seems to have been eliminated from the DNA which
encodes our future. the ultimate soul trap - buildings stand still, but the
occupants vaporized. Neurotoxins, virii, haemotoxic poison cause death by
drowning in your own blood. Germ warfare reared its ugly head during the
plague - wells poisoned by corpses, bodies flung over the ramparts by
catapults, to spread the lice born pestilence. Blankets impregnated with
smallpox distributed to Indian and Aboriginal alike. even the common cold,
and syphilis were used to expunge other races from their own homes. We are
a corrupt and evil species, and we have systematically corrupted, polluted
and destroyed our very living areas - even dumb animals do not shit where
they eat.
Rage - hate - madness, these things fuel writing. No drug can adequately
synthesis these emotions to the point that functional word pictures form,
ready to be transcribed. Each page is a kind of petit mal, jerked into being.
Anal - truly one of the more disturbing words to have entered modern usage.
People forget that there are two separate phases of development - expulsion
and retention. Why not use the terms "oral", "genital" or polymorphous
perverse" as well - or are they not scatological enough? If all things are
reduced to shit, then what is the purpose of living? What does it matter,
what ever you do, you will die, and your body will return to the corruption
of matter from which it sprang. Too late to salve the soul with mystic
unguents, magic crystals, poison it with pills and booze. Corrupt, all is
shit, all shall become shit again. It's the old 3/8 principal - most of the
shit is hidden by a facade of friendship and trust, while an eddy of putrid
excreta circulates beneath the exterior. To read is to seek an
understanding of what is being read. Without understanding, it is
meaningless. Understanding is not analysis - that is the vivisection of
words, the tearing down of an idea into its component molecules, and
rebuilding it in your own image. Doctor Dent's magic cure fixed Uncle Bill
over a decade ago - now it's nothing stronger than tea & vodka. Gone is the
belt gripped between the teeth - gone is the junk drawn up from a blackened
spoon, through the gauze, into the eye-dropper. Replaced instead by
methadone, then apomorphine. Replaced by a triple-bypass, a cracked hip.
New York, Texas, Mexico, Tangiers, Paris, London all replaced by the small
town feel of Lawrence, Kansas. Ian Sommerville replaced Kiki, replaced Joan
- all ultimately replaced by James Grauerholtz. Jack died an alcoholic
recluse, died of liver failure, like Billy Burroughs - Uncle Bill's son.
He wrote, too. "Speed", it was called, seeing as he was addicted to
Benzedrine and booze from birth. Died in a ditch - William didn't go to the
funeral. He had a step daughter, too. Never heard what became of her after
Joan's death. Jack's daughter became a junky whore - her book's in the Hub
library. Keasey was in & out of jails, mental institutions - acid and smack
and the Merry Pranksters with Neal Cassady driving an old school-bus across
the 60's. Cassady died of exposure, counting railway sleepers in the chill
of night. Paul Bowles crouches in Tangiers, no phone, no desire for contact
from the outside world. Sits there with his little pot of majoun (the basis
for Cronenberg's Black Meat), hashish candy made from resin, almonds and
spice. Killed one of his characters with it in "The Sheltering Sky". Jane
Bowles had one stroke after another, aphasia clouded her mind, rumors that
she was poisoned by their Arab housekeeper.
"Heir's pistol kills wife - he denies playing William Tell" - "Evil spirit
shot Joan to be _cause_". No dogs allowed - No dogs are loud - Know dogs
allowed - Know dogs are loud - No dogs aloud - Know dogs aloud. Confessions
of an unredeemed drug addict. Junkie, Junky. The characters spill over to
Queer, a yage quest. Fucking around in a jungle, 1953, looking for a vine
that had the potential to be the ultimate fix. Dragged suitcases of it back
to the States, threatened to cut Peter up with a machete over it. In the
end, it just made them so ill.
Cabra girls, desperate to break free from the convent, talk loudly about
the unsafe sex they have with their shaggy, hairy passing rough. Plastic
bags, hiding cheap vodka, circulate from bag to bag, to be hidden and
consumed in an orgiastic binge of release, culminating in drunken sex.
Cheap makeup and perfume hide unflawed skin of youth, free from the
blemishes of age, applied seemingly at random so as to resemble nothing
more than circus clowns. They talk of going on to better things - it seems
that most burn with the desire to be secretaries in law firms, for some
strange reason. Yet to hear one say that she wishes to go on to Uni... only
on to the Austral on Fridays. Austudy, thrush and grass seem to be de
rigeur to have, though it seems that NSU will do in a pinch. What will
become of these girls? What will they be like in five years time - for five
years is not that great a time period.
But no sex is truly safe - it creates its own little set of problems -
emotionally turbulent, muddying the pools from which we drink. Causing
tensions and frictions. Pervading feelings of worthlessness, episodes of
black depressions, longings for release from a self created prison. Even
auto-eroticism, the simple wank, does not dispel it.
One way street this - no exchange. No trade, no barter. Words never come
free - Ginsberg knew this. There is always a price to be paid - old men
sell their souls for a strap-on, young men just grow old. Pointless,
futile, damaging. It cannot go on like this. Vanished - no contact for
months. The only thoughts seem to be those of return. Someone once wrote
that you can never come home - it is never the same, and people change
whilst the fixtures and fittings do not.
This is enough - as Wyatt Earp allegedly said:
"It all ends here".
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:57:14 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Mime-Version: 1.0
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And there you go, eh voila
At 05:27 AM 8/6/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> Timothy K. Gallagher wrote:
>> Why is everyone so afraid of being labeled "corporate"? Why is this
>> considered such an evil thing?
>
>I think it goes back to the beat writers themselves, Kerouac's insistence
>that the American dream was somehow doomed, Ginsberg's vision of Molach
>in Howl,
>
>"Moloch! Moloch! Robot apartments! invisible suburbs! skeleton
>treasuries! blind capitals! demonic industries! spectral nations!
>invincible madhouses! granite cocks! monstrous bombs!
>They broke their backs lifting Molach to Heaven! Pavement, trees, radios,
>tons! lifting the city to Heaven which exists and is everywhere about
>us!"
>
>And even Burroughs who left America to do much of his writing in Mexico
>and Tangiers. The idea of corporate America is linked to money and
>possessions, America building bombs but not feeding her hungry.
>Corporate America was much of what the beats stood outside of, unwilling
>to be a part of. At the same time, later in their lives, both Ginsberg
>and Burroughs found that they could use corporate America to their
>benefit. It's the difference, I think, between being young and idealistic
>and older and idealistic. I think they realized that there was nothing
>wrong with using corporate America, money and self-promotion to a certain
>extent, to get across their ideas. Why not use American money to
>change American civilization. It is the same way with any publication,
>any magazine. Ads from corporate America pay the bills. One hand pats
>the other. It is their money that allows words to be published, that
>allow our freedom to write about the beats, to know their ideas and have
>those ideas reach immortality. We should applaud any publication like
>Wired, which gives space to ideas that matter. The good side of corporate
>is the money that affords writers and artists a way to say whatever they
>want, gives magazines and to publishers the means to devote space to
>writers and works that are experimental and/or outside of the mainstream.
>DC
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:10:03 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Desolation Angels...the darkness again
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My thoughts on Desolation Angels, a well-written epic that finds Kerouac
once again unhappy on the mountain, unhappy in America, unhappy in
Mexico, unhappy in Europe and then unhappy in America again. Desolate
and in despair, everywhere. There's a lot of darkness here. Now the
joys and kicks are found in the narration of others living life, while
Jack now looks on from afar, seeing nothingness and loss in joy as well
as in despair. Some things I underlined, which show a definite
progression of thought:
pg. 4
"'When I get to the top of Desolation Peak and everybody leaves on mules
and I'm alone I will come face to face with God or Tathagata and find out
once and for all what is the meaning of this existence and suffering and
going to and from in vain' but instead I come face to face with myself,
no liquor, no drugs, no chance of faking it but face to face with ole
Hateful Duluoz Me and many's the time I thought I die, suspire of
boredom, or jump off the mountain, but the days, nay the hours dragged
and I had no guts for such a leap...
pg. 13
"My life is a vast inconsequential epic with a thousand and a million
characters--here they all come, as swiftly we roll east, and swiftly the
earth rolls east."
pg. 14
"For the trouble with Desolation is, no characters, alone, isolated..."
pg. 68
"What did I learn on GWADDAWACKAMBLACK? I learned that I hate
myself...Desolation adventure finds me finding at the bottom of myself
abysmal nothingness worse than no illusion even--my mind's in rags--"
[I think the "I hate myself" fact is probably the most important fact in
the way Kerouac lived and died.]
pg. 78
"For those who believe in a personal God who cares about good and bad are
hallucinating themselves beyond the shadow of a doubt...It's just nothing
but Infinity, infinity variously amusing itself with a movie, empty space
and matter both, it doesn't limit itself to either one, infinitude wants
all...I can't for the life of me be anything but enraged, lost, partial,
critical, mixed-up, scared, foolish, proud, sneering, shit shit shit..."
pg. 123
"I look up, there are the stars, just the same, desolation, and the
angels below don't know their angels--
And Sarina will die--,
And I will die, and you will die, and we all will die, and even the stars
will fade out one after another in time."
pg. 187
"...I keep getting the feeling too, as Cody wins he really loses, as he
loses he really wins, it's all ephemeral and can't be grabbed by the
hand--the money, yes, but the facts of patience and eternity,
no--Eternity! Meaning more than all time and beyond all that little crap
and on forever! 'Cody, you cant win, you cant lose, all's ephemeral, all
is hurt,' are my feelings..."
pg. 315
"...and I looked up and saw the bleak pines by bleak mills of Roanke
Rapids with one final despair, like the despair of a man who has nothing
left to do but leave the earth forever. Soldiers waited for the bus
smoking. Fat old North Carolinians watched hands aback clasped. Sunday
morning, I empty of my little tricks to make life livable. An empty
orphan sitting nowhere, sick and crying. Like dying I saw all the years
flash by, all the efforts my father had made to make a living something
to be interested about but only ending in death, blank death in the glare
of the automobile day, automobile cemetaries, whole parking lots of
cemeteries everywhere, I saw the glum faces of my mother, of Irwin, of
Julien, of Ruth, all trying to make it to go on believing without hope.
Gay college students in the back of the bus making me even sicker to
think of their purple plans all in time to end blind in an automobile
cemetary insurance office for nothing. Where's yonder old mule buried in
those piny barrens or did the buzzard just eat? Caca, all the world caca.
I remembered the enormous despair of when I was 24 sitting in my
mother's house all day while she worked in the shoe factory, in fact
sitting in my father's death chair, staring like a bust of Goethe at
nothing. Getting up once in a while to plunk sonatas on the piano,
sonatas of my own spontaneous invention, then falling on the bed crying.
Looking out the window at the glare of automobiles on Crossbay
Boulevard. Bending my head over my first novel, too sick to go on.
Wondering about Goldsmith and Johnson how they burped sorrow by their
firesides in a life that was too long. That's what my father told me the
night he died, 'life is too long.'"
and the end,
pg. 409
"a peaceful sorrow at home is the best I'll ever be able to offer the
world, in the end, and so I told my Desolation Angels goodbye. A new
life for me."
If anyone has made it this far, why would anyone who knew Kerouac not
want to give him a good kick in the ass?
pg.195
Simon tells him, "'Ah Jacky-boy dont give me that, life is life and blood
and pulling and ticking' ( and the starts tickling my ribs to prove it)
'See? you jump away, you tickle, you life, you have living beauty in your
brain and living joy in your hort and living orgasm in your body, all you
gotta do it do it! Do it! Everybody loves to join arms-in-arms in the
walk,' and I can see he's been talking to Irwin..."
pg. 265
"'You fool ,' says Irwin in one of the rare instances when he let slip
what he really thought of me, 'How can you sleep all day and never see
anything, what's the sense of being alive?'"
What happened to joy in the joy/despair dualities?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:15:59 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: To Judith re: Burroughs recordings
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Judith,
I'd appreciate hearing more from you about the recordings your were
listening to and the ones you liked most...and everyone else, please chime in.
An earlier post - quite a while ago - mentioned the Burroughs
recordings for "Black Rider" with Tom Waits which includes Waits doing some
Burroughs. As I recall the comment was very critical of Waits and
uncomplementary about the recording. I liked all the recording, not least
for the Burroughs material, and I like his work with Laurie Anderson, but
I'd appreciate pointers to the favorites of the rest of you.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:21:39 -0400
Reply-To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: "Vaudville Voices and other WSB cds..."
Mime-Version: 1.0
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somone mentioned something about Burroughs' spoken word cds. I wanted to
make a list of the ones I have and if anyone can tell me what i'm missing.
1. Dead City Radio
2.Break Through the Grey Room.
3. You're the Guy I Want to Share My Money With
4. WBS and Gus Van Sant
5. Vaudeville Voices
6. Naked Lunch
i know i'm missing Junky and a 2 cd set compilation import.
did anyone hear about a new anthology of Burrough's work coming out?
Supposedly it will be available around 1998.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:21:54 -0400
Reply-To: Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: To Judith re: Burroughs recordings
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At 11:15 PM 8/6/97 -0400, Antoine Maloney wrote:
>Hi Judith,
>
> I'd appreciate hearing more from you about the recordings your were
>listening to and the ones you liked most...and everyone else, please chime
in.
This may label me for the weird person that I am, but I especially like
Dead City Radio, favorite pieces - The Thanksgiving Prayer, Kill the
Badger, Sermon on the Mount - the most irreverent the better.
We also listen to Spare Ass Annie and Call Me Burroughs.
As for Mr. Burrough's written works, I most enjoyed reading the collection
"The Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-59" - edited by Oliver Harris. I
had a much better understanding of WSB and all the Beats after reading this
book. Watching his growth and progression as a writer was fascinating, and
the clarity that emerged when he wasn't on the junk - mighty, mighty.
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:28:11 -0700
Reply-To: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: To Judith re: Burroughs recordings
Comments: To: Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970806232149.00702a38@ellijay.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Judith Campbell wrote:
> "The Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-59" - edited by Oliver Harris. I
> had a much better understanding of WSB and all the Beats after reading this
> book. Watching his growth and progression as a writer was fascinating, and
> the clarity that emerged when he wasn't on the junk - mighty, mighty.
Judith -
Gladdened that you picked up on the '45-'59 letters. Friends have been
driven distracted by my enthusiasms for them. Did you find the earlier
ones to be even better? I did. Vivid, edgy, economical, electric with the
Burroughs soul. I don't know more diamond-like writing in English unless
it be that Beat precursor, Mary MacLane (1881-1929).
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
recordings."
- William S. Burroughs
(quoted from memory)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:32:18 -0700
Reply-To: muzik <muzik@PRODIGY.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: muzik <muzik@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: A William S. Burroughs memorial song.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BCA2B0.37138060"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BCA2B0.37138060
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=20
Hello, I am new to this list and an avid Beat Generation type reader. I =
am 17 years old. I have recently due to the death of William Seward =
Burroughs dedicated a song to him by writing one. It's in mp3 format and =
about 7 megabytes. I am looking for a suitable and willing WSB or Beat =
Gen. site willing to host this jewel [by my opinion]. Anyone?
D. Taylor Singletary, Hipster and Slackellectual . muzik@prodigy.net
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BCA2B0.37138060
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1008.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2> </FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT>Hello, I am new to =
this list and=20
an avid Beat Generation type reader. I am 17 years old. I have recently =
due to=20
the death of William Seward Burroughs dedicated a song to him by writing =
one.=20
It's in mp3 format and about 7 megabytes. I am looking for a suitable =
and=20
willing WSB or Beat Gen. site willing to host this jewel [by my =
opinion].=20
Anyone?</FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>D. Taylor Singletary, =
Hipster and=20
Slackellectual . <A=20
href=3D"mailto:muzik@prodigy.net">muzik@prodigy.net</A></FONT></P></BODY>=
</HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BCA2B0.37138060--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:13:06 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Desolation Angels...the darkness again
In-Reply-To: <33E8BDFB.7C6C@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:10 AM -0700 8/6/97, Diane Carter wrote:
> What happened to joy in the joy/despair dualities?
joy began drinking Miller Lite
and started putting the sham
in the shamma lamma ding dong
despair took neither sailors,
hookers, nor used car salesmen
with a walk and a talk
eww we doom ma
eww we doom ma
eww we doom ma
> DC
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 02:15:57 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Last Words
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words of
William S. Burroughs?
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 23:48:52 -0700
Reply-To: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Last Words
Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.970807021407.19424A-100000@lhopital.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Neil Hennessy wrote:
> I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words of
> William S. Burroughs?
"Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
recordings."
- William S. Burroughs
(quoted from memory)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 03:35:47 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Last Words
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words of
> > William S. Burroughs?
>
> "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
don't mean to sound skeptical but
how do you know? were you there? who was Arthur Fleignheimer?
confused and tired~ good morning all
randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 06:03:17 -0500
Reply-To: Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: "Vaudville Voices and other WSB cds..."
Comments: To: "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Add to your list:
1. Spare Ass Annie
2. 10% File Under Burroughs
3. The Priest They Called Him (with Kurt Cobain)
4. Call Me Burroughs (also included on the bootleg Vaudeville Voices CD)
Where can I get my hands on the Naked Lunch CD you mentioned?
Regards,
Jym Mooney
----------
> From: Hipster Beat Poet. <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: "Vaudville Voices and other WSB cds..."
> Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 11:21 PM
>
> somone mentioned something about Burroughs' spoken word cds. I wanted to
> make a list of the ones I have and if anyone can tell me what i'm
missing.
>
> 1. Dead City Radio
> 2.Break Through the Grey Room.
> 3. You're the Guy I Want to Share My Money With
> 4. WBS and Gus Van Sant
> 5. Vaudeville Voices
> 6. Naked Lunch
>
> i know i'm missing Junky and a 2 cd set compilation import.
>
> did anyone hear about a new anthology of Burrough's work coming out?
> Supposedly it will be available around 1998.
>
> jason
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:09:00 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Nick Cave Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
In-Reply-To: <199708052141.OAA20855@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
At 14.41 05/08/97 -0700,
"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> wrote:
[i snip alot for brevity]
>I was going to write inked but since it was not ink but pixesl I made upo
>the term e-ink.
>
>So I would take credit for coining it,
>
>but,
>
>I decided that I better check that out so I typed http://www.e-ink.com
>
>to see what would happen
>
>and there it was
>
>the e-ink website
>
>So it was original to me not wasn't original to the world.
>
>Although, they are calling themselves electronic ink and claim to be
>"Electric Ink) is the new Electronic Printing & Publishing division of Pilot
>Advertising)."
>
Timothy, please, add to the credits the Nick Cave's book:
Nick Cave, "King Ink"
A collection of lyrics, poems and writings 1978-1986.
sani,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:08:11 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: next reading project
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08.59 06/08/97 -0700,
"Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote:
>I'm up for Diane's suggested reading. I have silently started reading On
>the Road for the first time as a great bang way to start my 27th year.
>
>-shannon (in Tucson where it is not quite as hot but strangely humid for
>Arizona.)
>
>
dear beats,
how im'/was/'ll reading the beats,
i was born in 1950, just then in Italy a lot of
things were "forbidden", i remember late 1950 when jazz &
jukebox were advised sinful, (i never know why), & the first
comics magazine arrived from US,
& packages of provisionses.
an handshake printed on the package
in background the flag US of America.
(or addressed to my mother my father's letters.
letters tied up with a cord placed into a drawer,
on the envelope stamped POW,
& he told me first some english words: "Prisoner Of War".)
then during decenniums the beat literature was my pal, now i turned 47
& beat lit is again here, it's a summa of
a gone age, a dream, a myself's something...
or im' forever out of one-way beat lit.
sani,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:07:27 +0900
Reply-To: rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rastous The Reviewer <rastous@LIGHT.IINET.NET.AU>
Subject: William Burroughs Tribute In Real Audio.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On August 8, at 1400 GMT, there will be a short tribute to William
Burroughs, broadcasting in Real Audio, :
http://light.iinet.net.au/~rastous/radio.htm
and follow the link through to 5UV.
We'll be playing some of Uncle Bill's work, and tracks from "Kicks Joys
Darkness", as well as reading from a series of Beat inspired short stories.
Please feel free to tune in.
Cheers,
Rastous
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:45:51 -0400
Reply-To: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"
<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>
Subject: Beat Posters
I still have a signed Ferlinghetti poster and a signed Corso for sale.
Burroughs and Ginsberg have already been sold. If interested please email me
privately at:
Paul@louisville.lib.ky.us
Thanks!
Paul
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:46:55 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: To Judith re: Burroughs recordings
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.95.970806212409.25756A-100000@global.california.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
synchronicity: i just pulled the letters from my bookcase yesterday, and
agree that they are helpful in understanding the progression of his work as
well as just plain good reading.
mc
>On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Judith Campbell wrote:
>
>> "The Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-59" - edited by Oliver Harris. I
>> had a much better understanding of WSB and all the Beats after reading this
>> book. Watching his growth and progression as a writer was fascinating, and
>> the clarity that emerged when he wasn't on the junk - mighty, mighty.
>
>Judith -
>
>Gladdened that you picked up on the '45-'59 letters. Friends have been
>driven distracted by my enthusiasms for them. Did you find the earlier
>ones to be even better? I did. Vivid, edgy, economical, electric with the
>Burroughs soul. I don't know more diamond-like writing in English unless
>it be that Beat precursor, Mary MacLane (1881-1929).
>
>
>
>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>
> "Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
> not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
> the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
> recordings."
> - William S. Burroughs
> (quoted from memory)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 10:16:11 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Last Words
In-Reply-To: <199708070734.DAA11643@mailhub.southeast.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, randy royal wrote:
> > > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words of
> > > William S. Burroughs?
> >
> > "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
> don't mean to sound skeptical but
> how do you know? were you there? who was Arthur Fleignheimer?
> confused and tired~ good morning all
My question was serious, and I assume this was a light-hearted reply,
since Arthur Fleggenheimer (sp?) was the real name of Dutch Schultz.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:27:32 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: So Long Gramps
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
david rhaesa writing:
Grandfather,
i'm not certain when you became my grandfather -- during one of my
hospital stays or another -- it doesn't matter when or where. You were
my grandfather from that point forward and for all points before.
now our journeys will take different pathways. i will continue to learn
from your lessons and walk in the safety of your vision throughout my
journey through the here and now that some call the present.
love,
david rhaesa
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:26:06 -0500
Reply-To: Luke Kelly <lpk@kdsi.net>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Luke Kelly <lpk@KDSI.NET>
Subject: Burroughs memorial program
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
To the people of Beat-L . . . friends:
Dave Hull (Lawrence, KS) graciously offered scans of Mr.
Burroughs' memorial service program. They are on-line
at <http://www.bigtable.com/memorial/>.
He said:
"The service was quite somber. It's easy to forget that William
Burroughs was a man with very close friends. These close friends were
there and it was obvious they were deeply saddened not by the loss of the
influential writer, but by the loss of a close friend."
Send him thanks at <insipid@insipid.cc.ukans.edu>.
Warmest regards,
Luke Kelly
http://www.bigtable.com/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:46:47 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nick Cave Re: Burroughs Webmasters Speak
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>At 14.41 05/08/97 -0700,
>"Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU> wrote:
>[i snip alot for brevity]
>
>>I was going to write inked but since it was not ink but pixesl I made upo
>>the term e-ink.
>>
>>So I would take credit for coining it,
>>
>>but,
>>
>>I decided that I better check that out so I typed http://www.e-ink.com
>>
>>to see what would happen
>>
>>and there it was
>>
>>the e-ink website
>>
>>So it was original to me not wasn't original to the world.
>>
>>Although, they are calling themselves electronic ink and claim to be
>>"Electric Ink) is the new Electronic Printing & Publishing division of Pilot
>>Advertising)."
>>
>
>Timothy, please, add to the credits the Nick Cave's book:
>Nick Cave, "King Ink"
>A collection of lyrics, poems and writings 1978-1986.
>
>sani,
>Rinaldo.
Happy Birthday (shangri kuaile) rinaldo
n'est-ce pas?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:57:57 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: "Vaudville Voices and other WSB cds..."
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
And, if this hasn't already been mentioned, there's a Burroughs/REM
track ("Star Me Kitten") on the X-Files tribute album.
Douglas
>----------
>From: Jym Mooney[SMTP:vmooney@EXECPC.COM]
>Sent: Thursday, August 07, 1997 4:03 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: Re: "Vaudville Voices and other WSB cds..."
>
>Add to your list:
>
>1. Spare Ass Annie
>2. 10% File Under Burroughs
>3. The Priest They Called Him (with Kurt Cobain)
>4. Call Me Burroughs (also included on the bootleg Vaudeville Voices CD)
>
>Where can I get my hands on the Naked Lunch CD you mentioned?
>
>Regards,
>
>Jym Mooney
>
>----------
>> From: Hipster Beat Poet. <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>> Subject: "Vaudville Voices and other WSB cds..."
>> Date: Wednesday, August 06, 1997 11:21 PM
>>
>> somone mentioned something about Burroughs' spoken word cds. I wanted to
>> make a list of the ones I have and if anyone can tell me what i'm
>missing.
>>
>> 1. Dead City Radio
>> 2.Break Through the Grey Room.
>> 3. You're the Guy I Want to Share My Money With
>> 4. WBS and Gus Van Sant
>> 5. Vaudeville Voices
>> 6. Naked Lunch
>>
>> i know i'm missing Junky and a 2 cd set compilation import.
>>
>> did anyone hear about a new anthology of Burrough's work coming out?
>> Supposedly it will be available around 1998.
>>
>> jason
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 09:47:08 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs memorial program
Comments: To: Luke Kelly <lpk@kdsi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Luke Kelly wrote:
>
> To the people of Beat-L . . . friends:
>
> Dave Hull (Lawrence, KS) graciously offered scans of Mr.
> Burroughs' memorial service program. They are on-line
> at <http://www.bigtable.com/memorial/>.
>
> He said:
>
> "The service was quite somber. It's easy to forget that William
> Burroughs was a man with very close friends. These close friends were
> there and it was obvious they were deeply saddened not by the loss of the
> influential writer, but by the loss of a close friend."
>
> Send him thanks at <insipid@insipid.cc.ukans.edu>.
>
> Warmest regards,
> Luke Kelly
> http://www.bigtable.com/
> .-
And to you too Luke
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:18:28 +0100
Reply-To: roger duncan <rbd@GLOBALNET.CO.UK>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: roger duncan <rbd@GLOBALNET.CO.UK>
Subject: Wales and WSB
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I never see any UK posts on the list - but mebe all the Uk members are
lurkers like us.
The shock of WSB breaking through the final grey room has left us numb.
Just reflecting other list members comments - Ginsberg was bad enough.
but for me WSB was and is beat.
His writings interweave with my life. I remember age 16 (about 1965)
getting Naked Lunch out of the library in a grey London suburbs. the cover
was marked " not to be left on the shelves". I'd ordered it following
reading Ginsberg poetry in Peace News,and reading OTR etc all in one long
sitting.
Naked Lunch made me laugh till I cried. It got passed round the school and
affected many of my peers.
During the 60s and early 70s - whilst WSB was in London - he wrote prolific
for so many small presses and alternative newspaper throughout the UK and
world generally too.
His work surrounded us here. he was pervasive.
I thought/hoped he'd go on forever and ever with his cats and his guns.
the recent letters book and dream book felt like there was still so much
wisdom. The links between his work and the qabbala and magic(k) leaves me
breathless.
from a cabal of WSB souls in the land of Wales, farewell Bill.
roger and syd.
-death needs time for what it kills to grow in for Ah Pooks sweet sake -
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:36:44 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: William Seward Burroughs (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 15:13:41 -0500
From: Kris Abplanalp <labplana@seidata.com>
To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
Cc: Rich Stephens <subrosa@super.win.or.jp>, droneon@ucsd.edu
Subject: William Seward Burroughs
among the list of things WSB was still working on before his death was a
collaboration with the great John Fahey. WSB doing spoken word over top
of JF's guitar playing. only a small portion was finished...
kris abplanalp
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:45:20 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Last Words
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hey, all iwanted to no was how did mike know bill's lastwords. i
wanted to know if mike was there or if there was an article where i
could check itout or anything. i was being serious, if somewhat
inaudible, excuse me. randy
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:31:03 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Last Words
Comments: To: randy royal <randyr@southeast.net>
In-Reply-To: <199708072043.QAA10944@mailhub.southeast.net>
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On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, randy royal wrote:
> hey, all iwanted to no was how did mike know bill's lastwords. i
> wanted to know if mike was there or if there was an article where i
> could check itout or anything. i was being serious, if somewhat
> inaudible, excuse me. randy
>
If it's true, I'd like to know how and where as well. But I figured the
Arthur Fleggenheimer response was a joke because of the "last words".
Burroughs had such a fascination with last words over his life, I'm
curious about his last words. See Port of Saints, for example. The
last "chapter" enumerates the last words of Dutch Schultz, Ulysses S.
Grant, and Billy the Kid. In Place of Dead Roads, the last section
is called "Quien Es?" (B the K's last), and I believe one of the
chapters in Cities of the Red Night is titled "Quien Es?" From
Place of Dead Roads:
Last words of Billy the Kid when he walked into a dark room and saw a
shadowy figure sitting there. Who is it? The answer was a bullet through
the heart. When you ask Death for his credentials you are dead (PR 201).
Someone even wrote an essay about 10 years ago called "The Last Words of
William S. Burroughs", so I figure it's as valid an enquiry as any. Does
anyone know what Burroughs' epitaph is? Did they use the one from The
Place of Dead Roads (or was it the Western Lands, I can't remember), that
ends with "Pop pop pop". (I'm going to have to look this one up when I get
a chance.)
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:55:37 -0400
Reply-To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Last Words
Comments: To: randyr@southeast.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:35 AM 8/7/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words of
>> > William S. Burroughs?
>>
>> "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
> don't mean to sound skeptical but
>how do you know? were you there? who was Arthur Fleignheimer?
>confused and tired~ good morning all
>randy
>
>
Arthur Fleigenheimer is the real name of
the mobster Dutch Schultz. Whoever wrote
this is kidding.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:39:55 -0700
Reply-To: muzik <muzik@PRODIGY.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: muzik <muzik@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Re: Last Words
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As an addition, while looking at Spare Ass Annie:
"Wrinkled earlobes are a sure sign of impending heart attacks."
VERY prophetic, indeed.
-
D. Taylor Singletary, Hipster and Slackellectual . muzik@prodigy.net
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 15:54:09 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Last Words
Comments: To: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
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http://www.bigtable.com/primer/0011g.html
Randy, If you look up our friend Luke Kelly's amazing Burroughs site
cum cutup machine, you will find the above url in the extensive Primer
section.
It reviews Burroughs' 1970 screenplay "The Last Words of Dutch Schultz",
nee Arthur Flegenheimer. I assume Kelly is the Reviewer. He points out
fascinating similarities in Dutch's last words to Burroughs' cut up
compositions
Mike Rice wrote:
>
> At 03:35 AM 8/7/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >> > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words of
> >> > William S. Burroughs?
> >>
> >> "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
> > don't mean to sound skeptical but
> >how do you know? were you there? who was Arthur Fleignheimer?
> >confused and tired~ good morning all
> >randy
> >
> >
>
> Arthur Fleigenheimer is the real name of
> the mobster Dutch Schultz. Whoever wrote
> this is kidding.
>
> Mike
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:17:24 -0700
Reply-To: muzik <muzik@PRODIGY.NET>
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From: muzik <muzik@PRODIGY.NET>
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Anyone know where I could possibly find copies of Mr. Burroughs plays =
and screenplays? Electronic or otherwise?
-
D. Taylor Singletary, Hipster and Slackellectual . muzik@prodigy.net=20
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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2> Anyone know where I =
could=20
possibly find copies of Mr. Burroughs plays and screenplays? Electronic =
or=20
otherwise?</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>-<BR>D. Taylor =
Singletary, Hipster and=20
Slackellectual . muzik@prodigy.net </FONT></P></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:41:24 -0400
Reply-To: Chimera@WEBTV.NET
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
Subject: Dangerous Writing
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Hello everyone:
A while back someone posted
a description of a work as "dangerous
writing"-a great phrase and a high
compliment, I'm sure.
My questions to the list are: what
qualities does a writers' work have to have
in order for it to be dangerous? What was
dangerous about the beats' writings, and
is it enough just to upset the status quo or
does something else have to be present?
Are there any dangerous writers today?
Finally, is it possible to be mainstream
(Anne Rice? Eric Lustbader?) and still be
dangerous?
I look forward to your
feedback, either to the list or in private.
I hope you've all had a great week and
are looking forward to the weekend.
My best,
Chimera
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:02:48 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Last Words
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.970807171422.29311A-100000@lhopital.uwaterloo.ca>
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On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Neil Hennessy wrote:
> Someone even wrote an essay about 10 years ago called "The Last Words of
> William S. Burroughs", so I figure it's as valid an enquiry as any.
Does anyone have a copy of this, or know where one exists? As many of you
undoubtedly are, I'm interested in what William's parting shot was -- as
well as Ginsberg's. I'd first heard it was "toodle-oo," but then I recall
reading something else somewhere, so I ain't got no clue.
bye,
m
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 17:07:13 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Dangerous Writing
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Chimera writ:
<<
> My questions to the list are: [snip]
>is it enough just to upset the status quo or
>does something else have to be present?
>>
Am right in the middle of Salvador Dali's "Early Years". Was
interesting to read that he was threatening to his native Catalan not
necessarily because he treated his paintings with a "cubist/surrealist"
style, but because he _also_ painted in a classical "naturalistic"
manner. He would exhibit both styles of painting at the same time. =20
Some people criticized him as fake or pass=E9, some attacked him for not
being "domestic" enough. But to find out that the real criticisms were
based on his dualities and flagrancies of style, now that is
interesting. Kinda goes back to what the whole "corporate" argument was
about. It's all right to be traditional or against the status quo, but
to be both at the same time!! Mon Dieu!
How this relates to the "beats" I'm not exactly sure.
>> Chimera
Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:12:10 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: roots of the middle name Seward???
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i'm back safely in salina kansas and just woke from a siesta and vaguely
know where i am. while i was asleep my step-mother whose maiden name is
seward and is related to lincoln's secretary of state somewhere along
the old family tree e-mailed me and wondered where the seward in william
burroughs name came from. i typed out the bit of information i found in
literary outlaw. it wasn't clear whether the line about hope was
related to the 1857 or the 1914 birthed WSB.
At any rate, if anyone out there knows additional information about the
roots of William Burroughs' middle name "Seward" beyond the biography's
sketchy details, i'd appreciate any backchannels so that i can pass them
on to my step-mother and her mother in Ark City.
sincerely,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 19:50:47 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Last Words
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Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> http://www.bigtable.com/primer/0011g.html
>
> Randy, If you look up our friend Luke Kelly's amazing Burroughs site
> cum cutup machine, you will find the above url in the extensive Primer
> section.
>
> It reviews Burroughs' 1970 screenplay "The Last Words of Dutch Schultz",
> nee Arthur Flegenheimer. I assume Kelly is the Reviewer. He points out
> fascinating similarities in Dutch's last words to Burroughs' cut up
> compositions
>
> Mike Rice wrote:
> >
> > At 03:35 AM 8/7/97 +0000, you wrote:
> > >> > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words of
> > >> > William S. Burroughs?
> > >>
> > >> "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
> > > don't mean to sound skeptical but
> > >how do you know? were you there? who was Arthur Fleignheimer?
> > >confused and tired~ good morning all
> > >randy
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Arthur Fleigenheimer is the real name of
> > the mobster Dutch Schultz. Whoever wrote
> > this is kidding.
> >
> > Mike
> > .-
to hear some of LWDS try the Spare Ass Annie cd
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 18:26:59 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: A hard habit to break...
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stolen from another list::
<< start of forwarded material >>
Sender: owner-jgballard@simons-rock.edu
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:27:53 +0100
To: jgballard@simons-rock.edu
From: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk (Gerald Houghton)
Subject: A hard habit to break...
Sender: owner-jgballard@simons-rock.edu
I was expecting someone else would bring this up, but since no one has...
JGB penned an obituary from William S. Burroughs in 'The Guardian' newspaper
(Monday August 4). Some of what he said:
"That William Burroughs lived to such an immense asge is a tribute to the
rejuvinating powers of a mis-spent life. More than half a century of heavy
drug use failed to dim either his remarkably sharp mind or his dryly
crackling humour...He changed little over the decades,a nd hardly needed to
- his weird genius was the perfect mirror of his times, and made him the
most important and original writer since the second world war. Now we are
left with the career novelists."
Gerald Houghton
e-mail: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk
The Edge magazine homepage:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~houghtong/edge1.htm
<< end of forwarded material >>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:43:34 -0700
Reply-To: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970807165220.1b5f5cc2@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Mike Rice wrote:
> At 03:35 AM 8/7/97 +0000, someone or other wrote:
> > > > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words
> > > > of William S. Burroughs?
Michael Brown wrote:
> > > "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
Randy wrote:
> > don't mean to sound skeptical but how do you know? were you there?
> > who was Arthur Fleignheimer confused and tired~ good morning all
I didn't mean it literally. "Arthur Fleigenheimer" is the refrain that
echoes through (and is the last words heard in) one of Burroughs's most
striking works: the screenplay of _The Last Words of Dutch Schultz_.
> Arthur Fleigenheimer is the real name of the mobster Dutch Schultz.
> Whoever wrote this is kidding.
I wasn't kidding, either. It was meant neither literally nor comically.
Nor symbolically. Whatever were Burrough's last words, they had resonance.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
recordings."
- William S. Burroughs
(quoted from memory)
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 22:29:28 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
Mime-Version: 1.0
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His last words were "a man has wept and never dashed a thousand kims, Joan,
I'm sorry".
At 08:43 PM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Mike Rice wrote:
>
>> At 03:35 AM 8/7/97 +0000, someone or other wrote:
>
>> > > > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words
>> > > > of William S. Burroughs?
>
>Michael Brown wrote:
>
>> > > "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
>
>Randy wrote:
>
>> > don't mean to sound skeptical but how do you know? were you there?
>> > who was Arthur Fleignheimer confused and tired~ good morning all
>
>I didn't mean it literally. "Arthur Fleigenheimer" is the refrain that
>echoes through (and is the last words heard in) one of Burroughs's most
>striking works: the screenplay of _The Last Words of Dutch Schultz_.
>
>> Arthur Fleigenheimer is the real name of the mobster Dutch Schultz.
>> Whoever wrote this is kidding.
>
>I wasn't kidding, either. It was meant neither literally nor comically.
>Nor symbolically. Whatever were Burrough's last words, they had resonance.
>
>
>
>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>
> "Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
> not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
> the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
> recordings."
> - William S. Burroughs
> (quoted from memory)
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 01:39:37 -0700
Reply-To: mike@buchenroth.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>
Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Test
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Test Test
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 02:14:48 -0700
Reply-To: mike@buchenroth.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>
Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: meet me in st loui
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Breath and I drove from Lawerence to St. Louis listening to the
recording of Naked Lunch that a Beat-l member sent for the trip. Which
it was as the orange blue chromium sun sat at the river of the Western
Lands.
We're back in Columbus listening to some Doors tapes.
Thanks to those members of the list who took up a collection for us and
to David and Patricia for good times.
The service for Burroughs was dignified, proper and filled with a broad
spectum of people who came to pay their last respects.James Grauerholtz
paid tribute; His mother sang. Those who wanted, passed by the open
coffin. Bill's hat was placed on the coffin facing him. The music was
varied. (more later) A farewell card with B's signature note was given
to all. The service was non-denominational. It was held at a theatre
(Liberty Hall) on the main Drag in Lawerence. It seemed church-like, but
some of B's own sermons were played on tape. I thought it had an slight
vaudelville hue to it. B was smiling.
Afterwards, James, Jim McCrary, John Giorno and other dignitaries
mingled with a good crowd at a bar (Replay). James asked me nervously if
it went all right. Yes. James. I was going to put the touch on him for
some bread to get back East, then I remembered one of the songs at the
service was "Minnie the Moocher."
I can say that Mr. Burroughs was a Johnson last time I saw him. As he
signed my son's copy of Western Lands he said," And I have something for
you." He said it would kick in about the time I get past Kansas City.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 03:31:40 -0700
Reply-To: mike@buchenroth.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>
Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Lawrence KS
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I don't know any of you well but had the pleasure of meeting and being
and hostess-ed by a few, thank you, i'm grateful to meet more good
people.
I wanted to note that there was little something for everyone in the
diversified group at the not-so-traditional yet traditional service.
Noone at the gathering seemed too sure what the tone would be to begin
with (I sure wasn't) but eventually it seemed to set itself. Everyone
finally settled into a respectful but not stuffy air.
I personally was moved by James Grauerholtz' sincere contribution to the
program. The music was perfect.
And WSB did appear to enjoy it.
Thank you all for being so receptive, it was a pleasure to visit the
beat motel, I hope not the only(last) time. (we only have 650 miles to
go before we sleep...)
breath
P.S. John Giorno said that Mr. Burrough's sword cane, a gift to B from
our S.Clay Wilson, had been put in in casket.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 04:20:49 -0400
Reply-To: Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "(Jerry Cimino)" <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: annotated howl, OTR reruns and other such stuff
The annotated Howl is a pretty cool book. Reproductions of numerous drafts
and versions of Howl. Interesting to see how Ginsy changed it over time...
the scribbles, deletions, additions and notes...
We have it in stock in oversized paper... $17.50.
See our website or call our toll free number.
Jerry Cimino
www.kerouac.com
1-800-KER-OUAC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:02:47 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: A Gay State.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
dear friends,
at the end of the 1970s William Seward Burroughs wrote an article
in which he imagined the capability of a State for the homosexuals.
he takes the Chinese TONG as ones's model.
the WSB's article took as starting point a crime news occured
on 27th nov 1978. Harvey Milk, a San Francisco municipal councillor,
was massacred together with the mayor George Moscone.
Dan White, the murderer, was convicted at a paltry term of punishment.
after the shocking sentence, in San Francisco there was a riot,
sani,
Rinaldo.
*
"Un'utopia fascinosa, ma irrealizabile. In fondo William Burroughs
ha sempre avuto un piede nel futuro. Accadde in un piccolo paese
della California verso la fine degli anni Sessanta. Un gruppo di
gay penso' di mettere in piedi una forma di autogoverno, ma
l'iniziativa venne reclamizzata troppo e le autorita' locali
opposero tali difficolta' che l'idea naufrago'. Anche in Italia
un illustre pensatore cattolico si augurava che lo Stato Italiano
concedesse ai gay un'isola disabitata.---Angelo Pezzana
interviewed by the newspaper ''la Repubblica'', 8th aug 1997"
*
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 07:52:12 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Thoughts from the Return from the East
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And now the sick man opened his eyes again and looked for a long while
into his friend's face. He said farewell with his eyes. And with a
sudden movement, as though he were trying to shake his head, he
whispered: 'But how will you die when your time comes, Narcissus, since
you have no mother? Without a mother, one cannot love. Without a
mother, one cannot die.' What he murmurred after that could not be
understood. Those last two days Narcissus sat by his bed day and night,
watching his life ebb away. Goldmund's last words burned like fire in
his heart.
But sometimes when i find the key and climb deep into myself where the
images of fate lie aslumber in the dark mirror, i need only ben over
that dark mirror to behold my own image, now completely resembling him,
my brother, my master.
No longer knowing whether time existed, whether this display had lasted
a second or a hundred years, whether there was a Siddhartha, or a
Gotama, a Self and others ...He smiled peacefully and gently, perhaps
very graciously, perhaps very mockingly, exactly as the Illustrious One
had smiled. Govinda bowed low. Incontrollable tears trickled down his
old face. He was overwhelmed by a feeling of great love, of the most
humble veneration. He bowed low, right down to the ground, in front of
the man sitting there motionless, whose smile reminded him of everything
that had ever been of value and holy in his life.
some words from spiritual uncle hermann hesse that hit me here and there
but not quite on the mark - not silencing the many marks pouncing up and
down from hither and yon wondering about the famous Last Words and i
woke up this morning and thought ... William Burroughs' last words would
not be spoken would they? Probably not even the last written words. . .
will do the trick. The few that can read the expressions in a face from
years of interpersonal interaction so close that it is intrapersonal the
novel of a raised brow, the comedy of a lip moving, perhaps they can
move somewhere to the last words for those who want the last and if they
won't talk about it then perhaps it is because the answer is silence. .
. . or maybe we need to bring in a good palm reader to dig up these
secrets!!!
I understood it all. I understood Pablo. I understood Mozart, and
somewhere behind me I heard his ghastly laughter. I knew that all the
hundred thousand pieces of life's game were in my pocket. A glimpse of
its meaning had stirred my reason and i was determined to begin the game
afresh. I would sample its tortures once more and shudder again at its
senselessness. I would traverse not once more, but often, the hell of
my inner being. One day i would be a better hand at the game. One day
i would learn how to laugh. Pablo was waiting for me, and Mozart too.
Walked in the apartment to the same phsyical disaster of the closets
half cleaned out and sorted once again. Looks like I drew the same damn
hand again. Shit. I was hopin for a YAHTZEE or something. I took a
long nap.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:56:40 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: A Gay State.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970808140247.006fc9b8@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> at the end of the 1970s William Seward Burroughs wrote an article
> in which he imagined the capability of a State for the homosexuals.
Is "A Gay State" the name of this article? If not, what is? Where can I
find it? Has it been published in one of his books/collections?
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:03:59 -0500
Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
In-Reply-To: <199708080529.WAA05806@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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"Timothy K. Gallaher" wrote:
>His last words were "a man has wept and never dashed a thousand kims, Joan,
>I'm sorry".
>
>
>
>At 08:43 PM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Mike Rice wrote:
>>
>>> At 03:35 AM 8/7/97 +0000, someone or other wrote:
>>
>>> > > > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words
>>> > > > of William S. Burroughs?
>>
>>Michael Brown wrote:
>>
>>> > > "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
>>
>>Randy wrote:
>>
>>> > don't mean to sound skeptical but how do you know? were you there?
>>> > who was Arthur Fleignheimer confused and tired~ good morning all
>>
>>I didn't mean it literally. "Arthur Fleigenheimer" is the refrain that
>>echoes through (and is the last words heard in) one of Burroughs's most
>>striking works: the screenplay of _The Last Words of Dutch Schultz_.
>>
>>> Arthur Fleigenheimer is the real name of the mobster Dutch Schultz.
>>> Whoever wrote this is kidding.
>>
>>I wasn't kidding, either. It was meant neither literally nor comically.
>>Nor symbolically. Whatever were Burrough's last words, they had resonance.
>>
>>
>>
>>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
>>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>>
>> "Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
>> not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
>> the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
>> recordings."
>> - William S. Burroughs
>> (quoted from memory)
>>
>>
is this just another joke? that thousand kims thing sounds familiar, but if
it is from something he wrote, i can't identify it. by the way, is
Burroughs being buried in Lawrence? i know someone can answer this for me.
leo
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 20:18:33 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: A Gay State.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.ULT.3.96.970808125534.22754A-100000@xx.acs.appstate.e du>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Alex,
the WSB's article is written in the book
''Gay Spirit, Mith and Meaning'' by Mark Thompson
printed in 1987, sorry i've no idea 'bout the publishing house,
in the quoted article, Burroughs whish a Gay State
comparing it with Israel (or Israelite State),
i dunno the exact title of the article, but the
Burroghs' idea is matched, i.e. the gay-TONG demands a
hard work and discipline, everyone is defended by
patrols working 24 hours a day,
sani tosac,
Rinaldo.
At 12.56 08/08/97 -0400, Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU> wrote:
>On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>> at the end of the 1970s William Seward Burroughs wrote an article
>> in which he imagined the capability of a State for the homosexuals.
>
>Is "A Gay State" the name of this article? If not, what is? Where can I
>find it? Has it been published in one of his books/collections?
>
>------------------
>Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
>kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 11:27:02 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
Comments: To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(See bottom)
At 12:03 PM 8/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>"Timothy K. Gallaher" wrote:
>
>>His last words were "a man has wept and never dashed a thousand kims, Joan,
>>I'm sorry".
>>
>>
>>
>>At 08:43 PM 8/7/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Mike Rice wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 03:35 AM 8/7/97 +0000, someone or other wrote:
>>>
>>>> > > > I guess the only question that remains is what were The Last Words
>>>> > > > of William S. Burroughs?
>>>
>>>Michael Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>> > > "Arthur...Fleigenheimer..."
>>>
>>>Randy wrote:
>>>
>>>> > don't mean to sound skeptical but how do you know? were you there?
>>>> > who was Arthur Fleignheimer confused and tired~ good morning all
>>>
>>>I didn't mean it literally. "Arthur Fleigenheimer" is the refrain that
>>>echoes through (and is the last words heard in) one of Burroughs's most
>>>striking works: the screenplay of _The Last Words of Dutch Schultz_.
>>>
>>>> Arthur Fleigenheimer is the real name of the mobster Dutch Schultz.
>>>> Whoever wrote this is kidding.
>>>
>>>I wasn't kidding, either. It was meant neither literally nor comically.
>>>Nor symbolically. Whatever were Burrough's last words, they had resonance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>>> Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
>>>+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
>>>
>>> "Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
>>> not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
>>> the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
>>> recordings."
>>> - William S. Burroughs
>>> (quoted from memory)
>>>
>>>
>
>is this just another joke? that thousand kims thing sounds familiar, but if
>it is from something he wrote, i can't identify it. by the way, is
>Burroughs being buried in Lawrence? i know someone can answer this for me.
>
>leo
>
>
Yes this is also a flight of fancy (although I'd like to claim mea tulpa was
there to record it)
In the Last Words of Dutch Schultz, Schultz on his deathbed keeps saying "a
man has never wept or dashed a thousand Kim" (something like that).
I turned it around leaving out the first never.
Of course Joan was his wife whom he killed.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:22:22 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
Comments: To: Sinverg|enza <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>=20
> "Timothy K. Gallaher" wrote:
>=20
> >His last words were "a man has wept and never dashed a thousand kims, =
Joan,
> >I'm sorry".
patricia writes Tim, this isn't humor or accurate, i don't know what you
are trying for here but attention but i am heartily sick of you. Your
post in response to the announcement of williams death was stupid. To
act like you know williams last word or jokingly make up like you might
is stupid. To say nonsense isn't humorous.
s this just another joke? that thousand kims thing sounds familiar, but
if
> it is from something he wrote, i can't identify it. by the way, is
> Burroughs being buried in Lawrence? i know someone can answer this for =
me.
>=20
> leo
patricia writes
William was buried in family plot in Saint Louis Thurs. semi private
services were held at the opera house in lawrence wed. night.It was with
an open casket. lots of wakes are being held around the world and we
mourn and celebrate together.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 13:44:24 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Patricia Elliott wrote:
>=20
> Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
> >
> > "Timothy K. Gallaher" wrote:
> >
> > >His last words were "a man has wept and never dashed a thousand kims=
, Joan,
> > >I'm sorry".
>=20
> patricia writes Tim, this isn't humor or accurate, i don't know what yo=
u
> are trying for here but attention but i am heartily sick of you. Your
> post in response to the announcement of williams death was stupid. To
> act like you know williams last word or jokingly make up like you might
> is stupid. To say nonsense isn't humorous.
>=20
> p
<applause begins slowly a pitter here and a patter there from all parts
of the globe and finally all join in a standing ovation for patricia's
kindly frankness>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:08:57 -0500
Reply-To: Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <vmooney@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: WSB's last words
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On the program for WSB's memorial service at
http://www.bigtable.com/memorial/ there is a handwritten notation dated
August 1, 1997 as follows:
"Love? What is it? Most natural painkiller what there is. Love."
Is this actually something WSB wrote the day before he died? Or is another
hoax/prank? Does anyone know?
Thanks,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:30:14 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Comments: cc: pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At 01:44 PM 8/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Patricia Elliott wrote:
>>=20
>> Sinverg=FCenza wrote:
>> >
>> > "Timothy K. Gallaher" wrote:
>> >
>> > >His last words were "a man has wept and never dashed a thousand kims,
Joan,
>> > >I'm sorry".
>>=20
>> patricia writes Tim, this isn't humor or accurate, i don't know what you
>> are trying for here but attention but i am heartily sick of you. Your
>> post in response to the announcement of williams death was stupid. To
>> act like you know williams last word or jokingly make up like you might
>> is stupid. To say nonsense isn't humorous.
>>=20
>> p
I love you too. I remember this story my friend told me. When the cops
came to the house he and his buddies were living at one of the guys kepts
saying to the Cops "If you want love, you can come in" over and over.
Eventually the cops went away.
The only thing I take some unbrage to is your comment about my original post
after Burroughs death. As I recall I wrote about the time I went ot see him
read and my friend bummed a smoke off him and we smoked it. (Very similar
to after Ginsberg died and I added my story to the influx of my only meeting
with him). Also I mentioned a recording of Burroughs called "Nothing Here
but the Recordings". =20
I wonder why the other Dutch Schultz take off on Bill's last words about
Flegenheim didn't make you so sad.
I actually think if his last words were about Joan (say I love you Joan or
I'm sorry) it would be pretty nice.)
>
><applause begins slowly a pitter here and a patter there from all parts
>of the globe and finally all join in a standing ovation for patricia's
>kindly frankness>
>
Hope you are doing well David, take care.
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:35:25 -0700
Reply-To: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Steve Silberman <digaman@WIRED.COM>
Subject: Harry Smith's 'Old, Weird America' Returns!
In-Reply-To: <199708081909.OAA28976@mail.execpc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
'Old, Weird America' Returns on CD
http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/5896.html
Anyone interested in where Allen Ginsberg got the three-tailed fish on his
Collected Poems from, or where
Jerry Garcia got some of his musical sensibility, or the past of American
music, or the "folk revival," or multimedia pioneers, or Bob Dylan, or
Harry Smith, or Greil Marcus'Invisible Republic, should check out this
story of mine.
Enjoy! Feel free to link.
Steve
**********************************
Steve Silberman
Senior Culture Writer
WIRED News
http://www.wired.com/
***********************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:20:15 -0000
Reply-To: jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Regarding Last Words...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
i think the constant people probing of William's last words is
ridiculous...thoughts aren't always expressed...what if his last words
were "an order of fries please"....and his last thought was "government
sucking cocks of Jazz America dope fiends licking taffy apple toliet
water..."
lets keep his last words, thoughts or ideas holy in his WSB remains...
Jason "donutman" Helfman
Three-Ring Creations
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:02:44 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB & Fleigenheimer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
you wrote:
>> I turned it around leaving out the first never.
and in discourse:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
There are those that don't care for right answers
putting dick where asshole's face once was
respecting nothing, skating over the surface
mishandling information like a baby sack cloth
flour to be mixed and mingled and baked
as half empty stomach and undigested literature
filled two eyes with tears and loss
mad like a planet's subrevolution
drunk and mad like a midtown taxi driver
searching for elegant solutions
where quiet and silence oughta be
LONG LIVE W.S. BURROUGHS!
=-=-=-=
so my question: <ahem> if this is a wake
when can we starting singing and dancing?
"I might like you better if we slept together
I might like you better if we slept together
Baby... <<Never say Never!!>>"
-- attribution/title unknown (female vocals)
I also wanna hear more WSB stories! Please?
>Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:16:12 -0400
Reply-To: Ddrooy@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Lowell Celebrates You?
I have a cheap ticket to fly roundtrip, Seattle to Boston, leaving Monday,
9/29 and returning Monday, 10/6.
Anyone within a few-hundred miles of Seattle who might be interested in going
to Lowell for the festival, I'll make you a screamin' deal.
It's also possible the flight of origin and the return can be switched at no
cost to Portland or San Francisco. I'd certainly be willing to check for you,
and if it's within my power, make it happen.
Additionally, I have a bunch of listings for accommodations around Lowell (I
was looking at kitchenettes... thought that would be fun, about $150/week,
beats the hell out of anything else and you get to eat cheap), as well as
kerouac friends there (some of whom are on the list), and as an old hippie,
I'd dig making connections for you.
To make the deal completely irresistible, for anyone who wanted to fly out of
Seattle, you can crash here and I'll take you to and from the airport.
You're never going to get a better deal than that.
email me if you're interested.
diane de rooy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:11:05 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
In-Reply-To: <199708082025.PAA10115@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, jgh3ring wrote:
> i think the constant people probing of William's last words is
> ridiculous...
... hence Burroughs' constant probing of other peoples' last words,
and every use he made of them in his writing, was ridiculous too. Last
Words figure prominently in his work, from Dutch Schultz onward. To
me, wanting to know Burroughs' last words to me is a kind of tribute.
> thoughts aren't always expressed...what if his last words
> were "an order of fries please"....and his last thought was "government
> sucking cocks of Jazz America dope fiends licking taffy apple toliet
> water..."
>
> lets keep his last words, thoughts or ideas holy in his WSB remains...
His words are his remains: "In space any number of painters can dance on
the end of a brush, and the writer makes a soundless bow and disappears
into the alphabet"
Last Words are one of the holiest and most potent entities in the
Burroughsian universe. ("entities" because language is a virus) Wanting to
know his last words is not some kind of peep-show violation of his
remains, but an application of principles he lived by and was fascinated
by.
>From "An Epitaph", a Foreword written for _The Victim's Datebook_:
Suppose this is a day a victim dies -- not just any victim but one
with whom you especially identify. Be careful. This is a dangerous day
for you. Remember, those who are ignorant of history are condemned to
repeat it. The more you know about the victim and his or her death, the
better. What was the cause of death? What day of the week? What else
happened on that day? Last words? I know from a book, The Death of Jesse
James, that he died on Monday, April 3, 1882, and the temperature was 46
degrees. He was shot while he had taken his guns off to clean a picture.
"That picture's awful dusty," were his last words.
Well, if you identify with Jesse James, don't let your
mother-in-law talk you up a ladder to dust off a picture on April 3.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Burroughs' magical universe, Last Words are one of the most potent
magics, and in asking for his, I am honouring his memory.
If I have offended you or anyone by going to Burroughs' writing for clues
on how to help me deal with his death, I most sincerely apologize.
Since I was the person who first asked the question, I felt it necessary
to explicate why I asked it. Like Patricia, I was distressed at the levity
people took with what was an earnest request, that for a major Burroughs
admirer might help bring some closure. My request was only made out of
devotion to Burroughs' art, and his outlook on life and death. I was off
the list for a while, and I don't recognise a lot of people on the list
now, but anyone who knows me through my BEAT-L posts can tell you I treat
Burroughs, and now his memory, with the utmost regard and respect. I only
had the privilege of meeting him once, but his death hit me hard. What
do you do when the artist you admire most in the world dies? I turned to
his work.
Neil Hennessy
"A writer's will is the winds of dead calm in the Western Lands."
Walk well in the Western Lands William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:32:52 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Neil Hennesey wrote:
>
> Last Words are one of the holiest and most potent entities in the
> Burroughsian universe. ("entities" because language is a virus) Wanting to
> know his last words is not some kind of peep-show violation of his
> remains, but an application of principles he lived by and was fascinated
> by.
>
As I am sure Neil knows, a fascination with last words is certainly not
new with WSB. He rediscovered something the literary tradition had
forgotten. From at least the 16th century through the 19th it was
common to see compilations of famous last words. I can't think of
medeaval examples at the moment, but expect them to be there. And don't
forget Plato on the death of Socrates. The assumption was that in some
ways last words crystallized what these notables had learned from their
lives. That in their time of dying, looking forward into the next world
they were able to see things more clearly.
In a sense Burroughs resurrected this tradition in a world now without
god.
J. Stauffer
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:13:19 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
Comments: To: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>
In-Reply-To: <33EBBAB3.28C0@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Was Burroughs cremated? I cant imagine he'd want to beburied in some
cemetary in Lawrence, Kansas amongst the same society he rejected most of
his life.
Better to be cremated and have his ashes taken back to Tangier or something.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:23:36 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Laundry vans and tattooed love boys...
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again, stolen from the JG Ballard list.
props to G. Haughton for typing and posting
Douglas
<< start of forwarded material >>
Sender: owner-jgballard@simons-rock.edu
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 22:10:44 +0100
To: jgballard@simons-rock.edu
From: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk (Gerald Houghton)
Subject: Laundry vans and tattooed love boys...
Sender: owner-jgballard@simons-rock.edu
I knew I'd end up doing the rest of this too. Thank god it's only short.
Anything that looks to be a mistake is actually an example of Burroughsian
cut-up techniques. Honest.
-----------------------------------
JGB's obituary from William S. Burroughs in 'The Guardian' newspaper (Monday
August 4):
"That William Burroughs lived to such an immense age is a tribute to the
rejuvinating powers of a mis-spent life. More than half a century of heavy
drug use failed to dim either his remarkably sharp mind or his dryly
crackling humour. When I last saw him in London a few years ago he was
stooped and easily tired, but little different from the already legendary
figure I first met in the early 1960s at his service flat in Duke Street, St
James.
"Esquire had asked me to write a profile of him, but Burroughs, though
courteous, was very suspicious. The baleful power of media empires already
obsessed him. While his young boyfriend, "love" and "hate" tattooed on his
knuckles, carved a roast chicken, Burroughs described the most effectively
way to stab a man to death. All the while he kept an eye on the doors and
windows. "The CIA are watching me," he confided. "They park their laundry
vans in the street outside."
"I don't think he was having me on. His imagination was filled with bizarre
lore culled from Believe It Or Not features, police pulps and - in the case,
I assume, of the laundry vans - Hollywood spy movies of the cold war years.
When Burroughs talked about Time magaine's conspiracy to take over the world
he meant it literally.
"I turned down the Esquire assignment, realising that nothing I wrote could
remotely do justice to Burroughs's magnificently paranoid imagination. He
changed little over the decades, and hardly needed to - his weird genius was
the perfect mirror of his times, and made him the most important and
original writer since the second world war. Now we are left with the career
novelists."
--------------------------------------------------
Just imagine that scene - the venerable junky, the middle-class English
writer and the love/hate boy. Sounds like somthing from A Will Self short
story. Or with the chicken - 'Eraserhead'...
Gerald Houghton
e-mail: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk
The Edge magazine homepage:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~houghtong/edge1.htm
<< end of forwarded material >>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:20:58 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
Speaking of Last Words... does anyone know if the movie "Hoodlums" that's
coming out with Laurence Fishburne and Tim Roth (as Dutch Schulz) is based on
WSB's book? just saw posters for the first time today.
ciao,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 21:41:54 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: test
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test
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 13:26:10 +0800
Reply-To: Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: Chinese Tong
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>From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
>Subject: A Gay State.
>
>dear friends,
>
>at the end of the 1970s William Seward Burroughs wrote an article
>in which he imagined the capability of a State for the homosexuals.
>he takes the Chinese TONG as ones's model.
What is the Chinese TONG?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:08:42 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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Neil Hennessy wrote:
>
> On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, jgh3ring wrote:
>
> > i think the constant people probing of William's last words is
> > ridiculous...
>
> ... hence Burroughs' constant probing of other peoples' last words,
> and every use he made of them in his writing, was ridiculous too. Last
> Words figure prominently in his work, from Dutch Schultz onward. To
> me, wanting to know Burroughs' last words to me is a kind of tribute.
>
> > thoughts aren't always expressed...what if his last words
> > were "an order of fries please"....and his last thought was "government
> > sucking cocks of Jazz America dope fiends licking taffy apple toliet
> > water..."
> >
> > lets keep his last words, thoughts or ideas holy in his WSB remains...
>
> His words are his remains: "In space any number of painters can dance on
> the end of a brush, and the writer makes a soundless bow and disappears
> into the alphabet"
>
> Last Words are one of the holiest and most potent entities in the
> Burroughsian universe. ("entities" because language is a virus) Wanting to
> know his last words is not some kind of peep-show violation of his
> remains, but an application of principles he lived by and was fascinated
> by.
>
> >From "An Epitaph", a Foreword written for _The Victim's Datebook_:
>
> Suppose this is a day a victim dies -- not just any victim but one
> with whom you especially identify. Be careful. This is a dangerous day
> for you. Remember, those who are ignorant of history are condemned to
> repeat it. The more you know about the victim and his or her death, the
> better. What was the cause of death? What day of the week? What else
> happened on that day? Last words? I know from a book, The Death of Jesse
> James, that he died on Monday, April 3, 1882, and the temperature was 46
> degrees. He was shot while he had taken his guns off to clean a picture.
> "That picture's awful dusty," were his last words.
> Well, if you identify with Jesse James, don't let your
> mother-in-law talk you up a ladder to dust off a picture on April 3.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In Burroughs' magical universe, Last Words are one of the most potent
> magics, and in asking for his, I am honouring his memory.
>
> If I have offended you or anyone by going to Burroughs' writing for clues
> on how to help me deal with his death, I most sincerely apologize.
>
> Since I was the person who first asked the question, I felt it necessary
> to explicate why I asked it. Like Patricia, I was distressed at the levity
> people took with what was an earnest request, that for a major Burroughs
> admirer might help bring some closure. My request was only made out of
> devotion to Burroughs' art, and his outlook on life and death. I was off
> the list for a while, and I don't recognise a lot of people on the list
> now, but anyone who knows me through my BEAT-L posts can tell you I treat
> Burroughs, and now his memory, with the utmost regard and respect. I only
> had the privilege of meeting him once, but his death hit me hard. What
> do you do when the artist you admire most in the world dies? I turned to
> his work.
>
> Neil Hennessy
>
> "A writer's will is the winds of dead calm in the Western Lands."
> Walk well in the Western Lands William S. Burroughs
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 01:13:39 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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Congratulations Neil,
You made your point superbly. Seems the moment Burroughs died our group
came alive with a passion for last words. Makes me think
about those tapes that the guards pointed at Arthur Fegenheimer who was
finally trapped by them, but not for long. He about to be released from
life itself. The reason guards in his head giving up control. I can see
Burroughs having a hell of a time digging in and cutting up those tapes.
Maybe we can persuade Luke Kelly to put our list-last-words-posts
through his cutup machine. I see you had a hand in encouraging him to do
those cutup experiments. These are no last words though. More like who
is going to have the last word. Reason brought to bear rather than
finally yielding. Besides I don't know how he manages to find the time
to do all that he is doing already.
I am no expert on Borroughs. I only read some of Luke Kelly's
fascinating cutups. The preliminary results of his experiments that you
encouraged him to do. Enough though to convince me that he would relate
with the folks who don't worry none about socially acceptable reasons
for coming out with what's on their minds. As for myself for instance, I
imagine it would be an extreme stroke of luck if I would get a chance to
listen to my last words and not worry about any embarrassments should
they turn out to be about piss or shit or some even less acceptable
baggage that permanently accompanied my life.
I know people who believe that in the last moment of life you can get a
bathed in an illumination that parades your entire life before you, and
suppose none of what I considered important turned out to be? Would I
rather nobody knew about it? Seems unlikely for a man whose life work
was trying to communicate what he saw, no matter what he saw, and he was
not looking away. He dragged himself through the gutter and did not
hesitate to tell all about it to folks who were not necessarily
comfortable about hearing all that.
It is quite possible that the last words have a lot to say that can shed
a lot of light. Even if the last attentions were to matters quite
insignificant, maybe even shameful. That would not diminish in the least
the stature of his life, that he was dedicated to communicate. It would
tell us a bit about how it ended. I hope to hear about his last days as
well. It would be nice. And thank you James for reminding us that last
words were not a sleazy preoccupation invented by Burroughs.
Since I am in a thankful mode, let me not forget Bill Gargan who started
this list. I think it is much more fertile ground to grow than we yet
know. All our feelings and knowledge are put to good use. Very good use
I think. We can all grow in this richly fertilized garden. We can make
room for everyone who wants to say something. Erudite scholars, fiery
poets, and some of us who react whichever way our muse shines on us,
even with something that strikes many of us as poor jokes in poor taste.
Quite a resonance and tribute to Bill Burroughs.
leon
> .-
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 07:34:49 -0400
Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95q.970808182554.5849A-100000@landen.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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hi neil: we dont often cross paths on the list, but i did want to tell you
right out loud that your posts on burroughs are amazing, and that i am
sorry your question got picked up and thrown about the list. your posts and
therefore you, in your posts, are clear, direct and authentic.
just wanted to add my 2 cents on this now crazy thread.
mc
>In Burroughs' magical universe, Last Words are one of the most potent
>magics, and in asking for his, I am honouring his memory.
>(snip)
>Since I was the person who first asked the question, I felt it necessary
>to explicate why I asked it. Like Patricia, I was distressed at the levity
>people took with what was an earnest request, that for a major Burroughs
>admirer might help bring some closure. My request was only made out of
>devotion to Burroughs' art, and his outlook on life and death. I was off
>the list for a while, and I don't recognise a lot of people on the list
>now, but anyone who knows me through my BEAT-L posts can tell you I treat
>Burroughs, and now his memory, with the utmost regard and respect. I only
>had the privilege of meeting him once, but his death hit me hard. What
>do you do when the artist you admire most in the world dies? I turned to
>his work.
>
>Neil Hennessy
>
>"A writer's will is the winds of dead calm in the Western Lands."
>Walk well in the Western Lands William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 06:47:40 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: More from Mississippi
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excerpts from Mississippi 1992 david b. rhaesa
my feet had wings and I saw that old Iowa pastor turned into a Brazos
bear sitting in the middle of the bridge - the gatekeeper on the
Mississippi and I wondered what ever happened to Tom Padgett? He gave
me the Gandhi book and I saw Gandhi and Hitler in a room and Kerouac and
Burroughs we taking notes and Churchill was climbing on the curtains
bringiing them down and proclaiming the iron dark truth but Gandhi
melted Hitler like Dorothy melted the wicked witch and then we all
clicked our heels together and we were back in Kansas. River City
Reunion. And we=92ll play cards this weekend down at Quantrill=92s ... A=
nd
maybe next weekend head out west to Coronado Heights.
we caught up with Ginsberg at Corondao Heights and headed southwest to
Dodge City, Gunsmoke and the OK Corrall or was the OK in some other town
maybe old Abilene ... the thing about corralls is that they all look
alike=20
dirt and fences
fences and dirt
And Jack and I were flying to L.A. reading Winnie the Pooh - a gift from
the auburn ghost - just after that fateful Christmas and the fateful
Denny=92s proposal and the woman next to me used to play with a friend in
the woods behind Milne=92s old house where Christopher Robin played with
Owl and Eyeore and the Pioneer and I tripped over Piglet and realized he
had a hidden past something like mass murder we can=92t be sure until we
read Hoffman=92s next book.
And what was Ginsberg up to during all this? Probably reading the Kama
Sutra in Boulder to one of Burroughs=92 cats as they fell from the rafter=
s
and did J.D. Salinger have cats too and what were their names? Did you
have a friend on the good Reuben James? Did you have a friend on the
Partridge Family?
What a Friend we have in Reuben Kincaid the church choir sings as the
Brady Bunch and the Partridge Family play battle of the bands on
Saturday Night Live and the bionic woman and Mindy play with me in bed.
The phone rings and it=92s Tim Leary calling from Alcatraz. He says that
the world is on a bad trip and the psychedelic veterans need to talk it
down - so I agree to help and the world turns inside out as the British
play the World Turned Upside Down as they surrendered at Yorktown and
the same line reappears like some phantom in a jimi hendrix song - words
about numbers if 2 were six and seventeen was sixty-six - or sixty one.
like highway 61. I wonder what happened on Highway 61 on the first
visit? =20
Burroughs tells me I think too much and I ask him what he thinks about
between books, between injections, between the notes of the William Tell
Overture ... tell us William what do you think about? =20
Does a sponge think?
Is that a medical question or a metaphysical one?
And did Darrow really say that thing about the sponge or was it just a
line in a play like Isaiah saying that troubling your own house inherits
the wind - and if the answers are blowing in the wind wouldn=92t it be a
good thing to inherit? and I wonder how the IRS would tax me for it?
What if Isaiah was really just joking and nobody realized it? ...and
then when they took him serious he started to believe it himself like
when Gypsy Daisy and the Sorcerer made me believe that I really could
make it rain and when I played the ascension chapel piano during the
wedding rehearsal and made it snow I spun out of control.
I remember crashing in the basement and Roy Orbison was there talking
about loneliness and Burroughs was there talking about something
somebody would say next month at the National Press Club meeting in
Tangier and they punched six six six into the CD player and Bobbie sang
Ballad of a Thin Man and when I sang it later at the hospital while
circling the rasti-man that someone called Crazy Eddie he hit me but
told me later he didn=92t mean it that he was signaled by two
psychiatrists in between his lecture on parapsychology at Boston
University.
Ronald Reagan=92s smiling on my wall and it=92s 1965 and he=92s saying=20
=93Where=92s the Rest of Me?=94 and Dylan=92s saying =93Something=92s hap=
pening here
and you don=92t know what it is, do you Mr. Jones=94 And Dylan looks at
Reagan from the stairwell and says =93Sure you=92re happy, John Kennedy=92=
s
being assasinated downstairs.=94 And Reagan smiles and offers to sign hi=
s
book =93Make Room for Nancy=94. and Dylan says =93Nancy reminds me of La=
dy
MacBeth =91Out Damn Spot and all of that=92=94 and Ronnie says thank you =
and
smiles and waves and says God Bless America with Kate Smith singing in
the background.
And the Indigo Girls came to visit me at the hospital to bring me a
guitar but the nurses wouldn=92t let me have it because Doctor Opie said
he didn=92t want any hangings like when he was a cop and took Arlo=92s be=
lt
during that whole Thanksgiving massacre bit...and I asked him why he
stopped being a cop and became a psychiatrist and he mumbled something
about plaster tire tracks footprints dog-smelling prints and blind
justice and then I asked him if Stockbridge was near Lowell and if Jack
had ever been through and if he had did he litter? And Doc Opie just
looked at me and spit some Haldol in my eye and told me to sleep well in
my leather pajamas
so I became a horse and broke through the straps and the patients were
scared of me so I was really glad that the Indigo Girls decided to stay
around and talk about Galilleo and Reincarnation and Southside said the
Catholic church is getting better because they=92ve finally admitted that
Galilleo wasn=92t so bad but they still don=92t think he should use a
condom. Why would they want him to reproduce if they thought he was
evil? It just doesn=92t make sense sometimes ....
and I ask the Indigos if they=92d like to visit some past lives with me.=20
And they asked who they were and I said who do you want to be ...
because the truth about the whole reincarnation thing is that we=92ve all
been everybody because we=92re all connected in the collective unconsciou=
s
and no matter how much you try to repress it thre=92s a little bit of
Charlie Starkweather in all of us, a little bit of Lee Harvey Oswald and
a little bit of Jesus, Gandhi and Shirley MacLaine.
The Indigos just stared at me and said that they were in the middle of a
five year plan and would wait until they looked back and laughed before
they went shopping with Virginia Woolf for a pencil and Dylan is
mumbling something about don=92t look back with Ginsberg in the corner in
a long black veil and then they laugh and the Indigos point to the
Watchtower and all sing =93Who=92s Afraid of Virginia Woolf=94 with Burto=
n and
Taylor singing doo dahs in the background to the tune of =93Who=92s Afrai=
d
of the Big Bad Wolf=94 like Barbara Streisand back when she was funny.
Bill Burroughs was there in the hospital disguised as an old man with
polio. I caught him calling his bookie from his room and went in to
warn him about the addictions of gambling and he talked like it was just
a normal business. the principles of modern capitalism are based on
addiction to gain whether in the accepted or the underground economy.=20
He always makes me a think a bit.
My high school principal was there. We used to call him Lurch when
Calamity and I were writing for Prairie Dogs underground newspaper =93The
Elevator: Bringing the News Up From the Underground=94 back in Salina
Kansas. And when I called him Lurch on Christmas Eve he and the boys
tied me in leather and sang =93We Wish You A Merry Christmas=94 to the tu=
ne
of =93Three Blind Mice=94.
The priest was there, Dalmasse, disguised as a technician or nurse - I
could never tell who was who. I told him about the toy house in the
woods outside Lawrence and the flames and about psychedelic veterans
working together to take the world off the bad trip. he told me about
his dislexia. He seemed genuinely interested in me, but had obviously
forgotten the time a few years earlier when he proclaimed that I was
Alpha and Omega in the Iowa Law School and I gave a brief lecture on
Universal Implosion resulting from excessive paperclip consumption.
The phone rings and it=92s David Lynch. I say what=92s up and he says he=
=92s
thinking about a film in Davenport and I invite him to come to 1012 last
weekend for the poetry and tell him about Yahtzee and Joy will read
about Thelma and Ted and Louise and Bill and Lynch says something about
Bob and Ted and Carol and Alice and I tell him its the nineties and he
apologizes and says he forgot and I tell him that I know several good
characters and that the Cat mother says Davenport=92s a good town for a
movie and he says he=92ll come in through the fire-escape at 2:30 Tuesday
morning. I=92ll have coffee on I say as I hang up and put Twin Peaks in
the VCR while listening to Clapton and the Band play random songs over
Kerouac who=92s trapped in the cassette deck.
Hey Jack! didn=92t Old Bull teach you how to go through the tape deck an=
d
he says something about the farmhouse and Buddha in O=92Hare under the
stars and I tell him to go back to the Yahtzee game on Halloween and he
says the cassette deck is a good place for a nap and that I should just
leave him alone.
__________________
funny how a frustrated rhetoric instructor can live a fantasy life with
all these folks that is more real than the time spent in the classroom.=20
maybe it isn't funny. For those who followed firewalk and are searching
for some chronology in my wanderings, most of these images would have
fallen between the lines in Colt-45 about No Identity, No Sleep for four
days.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:12:31 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Chinese Tong
In-Reply-To: <199708090526.NAA12012@soran.pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 13.26 09/08/97 +0800,
Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG> wrote:
>What is the Chinese TONG?
>
>
hello,
sorry, i have the capability to read the Burroughs' article only
in italian translation. it's possibile that TONG spelling
is inaccurate (exempli gratia maybe TI-KIANG=the far tribe, or
T'ANG as chinese dynasty). i think WSB is referring to TONG meaning
of fraternity & assistance (but not on the quite).
btw credits Massimo Consoli, editor in chief of ''Rome Gay News'',
who translated the Burroughs' article. Massimo Consoli takes care
of the civil rights of homosexuals.
http://www.publibyte.it/promo/gc/cronistoria.htm
saluti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:58:50 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Chinese Tong
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Rinaldo,
"fraternity & assistance" is the key Rinaldo, as you say. I'm sure
he was using 'tong' in the way it's sometimes used to refer to
chinese-american gangs in San Francisco; a group/secret society banding
together for protection and more often for power and control.
Antoine
*********************
Rinaldo replied to Sharon:
>At 13.26 09/08/97 +0800,
>Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG> wrote:
>>What is the Chinese TONG?
>>
>>
>hello,
>
>sorry, i have the capability to read the Burroughs' article only
>in italian translation. it's possibile that TONG spelling
>is inaccurate (exempli gratia maybe TI-KIANG=the far tribe, or
>T'ANG as chinese dynasty). i think WSB is referring to TONG meaning
>of fraternity & assistance (but not on the quite).
>btw credits Massimo Consoli, editor in chief of ''Rome Gay News'',
>who translated the Burroughs' article. Massimo Consoli takes care
>of the civil rights of homosexuals.
>http://www.publibyte.it/promo/gc/cronistoria.htm
>
>saluti,
>Rinaldo.
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:57:48 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
In-Reply-To: <33EBBAB3.28C0@pacbell.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 8 Aug 1997, James Stauffer wrote:
> As I am sure Neil knows, a fascination with last words is certainly not
> new with WSB. He rediscovered something the literary tradition had
> forgotten. From at least the 16th century through the 19th it was
> common to see compilations of famous last words. I can't think of
> medeaval examples at the moment, but expect them to be there. And don't
> forget Plato on the death of Socrates. The assumption was that in some
> ways last words crystallized what these notables had learned from their
> lives. That in their time of dying, looking forward into the next world
> they were able to see things more clearly.
>
> In a sense Burroughs resurrected this tradition in a world now without
> god.
>
But with _gods_ (at least in Burroughs' world). Thanks for the info James,
I wasn't aware that these compilations were widespread and popular. In a
way Burroughs also subverts the tradition in his awareness that
sometimes people's last words are trivial, when he repeats Ulysses S.
Grant's last words at various places in his work: "It is raining, Anita
Huffington." He never ascribes any significance to those words, unlike the
Kid's "Quien Es?" which does become charged with meaning. So charged that
"Quien Es?" is the title of Kim Carsons autobiography in The Place of
Dead Roads -- Kim Carsons, who Burroughs has spoken of in interviews as
his spokesperson. The autobiography is also ghost-written by William
Seward Hall, the god-like or Prospero-like writer figure in The Place of
Dead Roads.
Connections draw themselves into figures like lines across the stars...
Cheers all,
Neil
"A writer's will is the winds of dead calm in the Western Lands."
Walk well in the Western Lands William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:02:47 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: wakes
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Author wrote recounting a dream.
I recall John Giorno among the dream group). There was the feeling
> that WSB was no longer ours, that he would imminently be absorbed by the crowd
that he was at the center of, that we were lucky to have such an intimate visit
and would now have to share him.
> Arthur
patricia writes
i have the funniest sense of his (wsb) spirit wafting a whirlwind around
the globe. I chose to house sit his home rather than attend the funeral
and greatly enjoyed it, various persons stopped by. I sat and read the
magazines and books next to the couch. I spent the night at the house
when the boys went to St. Louis and thought it was to protect it but
found out that william meant me to be there for the young forsaken boys
that arrived. One young boy I found weepy in the back yard , at first I
scared him then I gave him a bit of williams candy, a flower from the
porch and one or two stories about william . Then i realized it was a
time of wake. That those of us who knew william were to share this with
people who loved him. The next was a tall guy that hitched hiked from
New York. I sat with him and let him tell me how great reading him was.
Patricia,
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 18:21:13 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: A wake for William
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Patricia,
A lovely post about waking Burroughs at his house. Most of us who
have waked parents, family or friends will testify to the wondeful emotions
of it all - at least afted the fact when remembering ourselves rememberibg
washes out the loss. Please tell us who else came by his house.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 15:20:53 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chinese Tong
Comments: To: Sharon Ngiam <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 01:26 PM 8/9/97 +0800, you wrote:
>>From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
>>Subject: A Gay State.
>>
>>dear friends,
>>
>>at the end of the 1970s William Seward Burroughs wrote an article
>>in which he imagined the capability of a State for the homosexuals.
>>he takes the Chinese TONG as ones's model.
>
>What is the Chinese TONG?
>
>
I have heard this term tong when reading stuff about the history of American
Chinatowns.
As far as I can tell tong is the Romanization to reflect cantonese
pronunciation of dang (in pinyin) or tang (in wade-giles) =C4=D2 in=
traditional,
=B5=B3 in simplified, meaning group or party (as in political party--like=
the
Guo Min Dang).
I got this from the far East English Chinese Concse dictionary. It also
provided a Term huishe (=B7|=AA=C0 in traditional or =BB=E1=C9=E7 in=
simplified). This
would mean roughly society or organiation.
I think when people talk about tong they are describing the hierachy of
Chinatowns in the earlier parts of this century. Kind of the government
within the government. There were various tongs that ran things or provided
services. A tong could be as benign as a civic organization or it could be
a mafia. Sometimes gangs or organized crime groups with relations to
Southern china ight still be referred to as tongs.
The organizational structure Burroughs meant when using a tong for an
analogy I don't know.
I would also refer you to Antoine Maloney's post.
Or it is a big tweezer like deal to pick up ice cubes and things like that.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 17:40:14 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: A wake for William
Comments: To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
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Antoine Maloney wrote:
>
> Patricia,
>
> A lovely post about waking Burroughs at his house. Most of us who
> have waked parents, family or friends will testify to the wondeful emotions
> of it all - at least afted the fact when remembering ourselves rememberibg
> washes out the loss. Please tell us who else came by his house.
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
i have the worst memory in town for names. I also tred on ice as i talk
of others mourning and death and visions. I will share what i have
written about the day that william died. broken through the ice and
drowning.
Patricia
Around 8:30 at night, I get a call from Wayne Propst, he said,"
Patricia, William has died. We knew this would happen sooner or
later." I ask "when?", He said "a couple of hours ago. he got sick
yesterday and l and this evening he was asleep and he just quit
breathing" I am alone in the room with him now, James is out making
arrangements". I said "your alone with him in his room. Wayne said yes.
and I asked what room are you at, his house.? Wayne says no no I am at
the hospital in the ICU wing. We got off the phone and I walked around
the house, my chest got tighter and tighter , then I told my husband I
was going to the hospital.
I went up to the ICU wing and asked to be admitted to the room, and
Wayne came out and gave me a hug and we went into the room to sit. My
body was tight with bands. I entered the room and there was William
laid on the bed, in pajamas and I was immediately filled with a sense
of peace and my whole body relaxed. I walked over to him and touched his
arm. He looked so peaceful and strong. I was flashed back to the day I
first met him in Texas, I was sitting in Ohles living room in Austin,
he came in and I looked up and said , hell they didn't tell me you were
big and strong, he chuckled , sat down and we started talking right
off.
Seeing him on the bed he looked strong again, he was straight , he
didn't look frail and a little hunched over like he had these last few
years. His corpse looked younger and strong. It was eerie.
His pallor was a steel grey color, his head dominant, his body looked
full again, thin, solid, his great beak with his bald head ( little down
of hair) looked completely at peace and relaxed. I felt his presence
there. he was always a gracious host. We sat down and Wayne who is the
most reliable person to tell a story, talked. James came in the room
and we hugged and then James turned to William and clasped him crying
and sobbing in the most utterly broken hearted way. I had never seen
James more beautiful. I thought, god, James was son and father to
William. The love and respect that I had observed between those two
over the years flashed through my thoughts like bursting series of
lights.
We sat and talked about William, how he was fine and feeling good on
Thursday, and that he had been writing about losing his beloved Fletch.
Fletch died two weeks ago. I thought of how much William relished life
and how interested he always was in these certain subjects. . By now PT,
Bill Rich, James, Wayne and I were there. Ohle and McCrary were out of
town, we tried to call Fred and there was no answer. They decided to
have someone go and tell George personallly in the early morning.
Dean Ripa came into the room, he was visiting William this week,
he acted irrational and said silly things. I decided to go up and hug
him with hopes that it would quiet him. James got up and then sat on his
knees by williams' bed. His arms over William. I felt like it was a
series of saying good bye.
I said that I would go and watch over Williams house, I really wanted
Dean to go back and do that but he said he would do that later. I went
over to William and kissed him on the cheek, it felt very natural, I
always liked kissing William. I went and sat in Williams drive way,
this was around 12:30, clear, warm, summer night. Some one come up and
placed a bouquet on the porch. I started crying there in the dark
feeling sorry for myself because I knew I would miss him so much. I had
this strong sense that he wasn't gone yet. I went to Dillons and
brought two lavender roses and came back and placed them on Williams
porch, sit there for a while and stroked ginger. (Williams' old puck
faced orange alley cat).
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:16:29 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Your vivid description....
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Thanks so much for including us all in that way - especially those of us who
feel very far away. That's particularly true in my case since I know
Burroughs primarily for his impact on the other Beats and for his
recordings, and not for his writing. Thanks Patricia.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:16:28 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
In-Reply-To: <33EC26B3.C2A82D41@cruzio.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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First off, thanks Leon for your kind words. I'm not sure where you got
the info below:
> Maybe we can persuade Luke Kelly to put our list-last-words-posts
> through his cutup machine. I see you had a hand in encouraging him to do
> those cutup experiments.
The cut-up experiments Luke is doing were his brilliant idea from the
start. I corresponded with him after he had produced some results, telling
him how impressed I was at the idea, and the fruition of the first part of
the project, so if that's what you mean by encouraging him, then
certainly I did, however Luke gets all the credit for the endeavour.
> And thank you James for reminding us that last
> words were not a sleazy preoccupation invented by Burroughs.
While this may be true in this instance, I don't think going through
Burroughs' work and finding literary precedence in order to apologize for
all preoccupations that might be construed as "sleazy" is a good idea.
Burroughs thrived on transgression, it drove his wicked incisive humour,
as well as much of his allegorical situations. For instance, noone is
going to apologize for his obsession with sexual hanging rituals, and no
apology should be made. Bowdlerizing Burroughs, what a project!
> It is quite possible that the last words have a lot to say that can shed
> a lot of light. Even if the last attentions were to matters quite
> insignificant, maybe even shameful.
My favourite last words of a writer were Oscar Wilde's. A pure aesthete
until the end, lying sick in his bed, he looked at the putrid coloured
wallpaper in the room and said, "Either that wallpaper has to go, or I
do," and he died. When you tempt death with your aesthetic, you are dead.
Neil Hennessy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:06:38 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: We'll miss you Bill
Comments: To: pelliott@sunflower.com
Oh my God.
Address same as ever: Box 303, Cherry Valley, N Y 13320.
Dazed to the Doors and Interstate and 61 revisited. Naked Lunch playing on
the casstte outta St. Loui. Thanks Arthur for the tape. You're right. It is a
real trip hearing the voice as the old man of letters was being laid in the
ground with St. Louie sun burning down the horizon of the Western Lands. On
to the toxic zones of Indiana, Scranton P.A. eternal holocaust and hell fire
kids flipping hamburgers to get out and maybe make it somewhere left before
the whole shit house goes. Old Eastern States to the vision of misery zones
aroung the chemical smog banks the industrial waste let loose their terrible
secrets mutated to the clipboard ..the cities calling the masses. Put on the
Junky tape entering New York stars throbbing light years away from the
ancient energy fields. Space time rubber bands symetry vibration of all the
souls lost in the last scene, signalling from behind the curtains of speed
warp of this millenium. It's happening.
CP
Patricia:
The tomatoes you sent home with Charley were marvelous. What kind was the
big one which looked like a beefsteak but was almost purple? Thank you. Pam
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 01:13:14 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: wakes
Comments: To: pelliott@sunflower.com
Patricia:
Thanks for house sitting and greeting those souls while Burroughs swirled the
cosmos.
May all the stray cats have his pillow tonight.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 02:00:40 -0600
Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>
Subject: WELCOME BACK CHARLES
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Hello Charles,
I'm glad you made it back safe and sound. I keep reading Tornado
Alley, over and over. Even when I'm on the road; I keep it in my
Dobro case. Luther's real sick, and Ed Dorn is terminally ill. My
fucking guitar sounded pretty sick last night (gig). I switched
over to harp when I got home...back porch blues.
Richard Houff
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:20:29 UT
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: mail server
well, cats, i'm in a bad way here.. e-mail's been totally fucked up for most
of this week. some of my stuff makes it out, somedoesn't ever seem to reach
its destination. but, worst of all, i'm not receiving most of mine, at least
not in a timely manner, if at all.
so if your mail to me is being returned or you think i'm being a jerk by not
answering, it isn't true - trust me and try again!!!
crossing my fingers this gets to the list,
sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 05:47:00 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Some Memories of Lawrence
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Well i rolled into Lawrence hours early. Despite the train that blocked
my path at first, the soundtrack lifted my little Subaru like winged
chariot and zoomed across I-70 we did a chant and stopped the rain near
Wamego and the sun broke to a pink sunset (we being me and any other
imaginary characters in my car who choose to remain anonymous this time
around - most were hiding out in the tape deck anyways).
I parked out in front of Patricia's far enough down the road to avoid
any collision from the locals who drive about as well as the locals in
Cairo at least as i've heard tell. Got out of the car and walked up to
what i had previously named the new Beat-Hotel. Hmm. Pretty dark
inside. Tap tap tap on the door. I've never been good at knocking.
Arthritic knuckles or something. And at the hour i thought perhaps the
doorbell was not proper and of course wasn't at all certain that it
worked. I scoped here and there around the house a bit looking for the
signs of life - a wonder i wasn't arrested as a peeping Thomas or some
other form of Peeping peeper in my purple shades and black hat i would
certainly have been sent to the straightjacket in nearly any other
community in this state. But i was in Lawrence where most anything is
legal except parking so i continued to stalk a bit.
one of the peculiar maladies i suffer from is a total paralysis of
decision over the simplest matters and this was one of those times that
i wish i understood the framed saying "Indecision is the Key to
Flexibility" on my mother's kitchen wall. But then it struck me -
stupid david - they're downstairs on the computers undoubtedly they
are. so i opened the door and walked downstairs and sure enough another
Beat Happening was happening at the new Beat-Hotel.
The stories between this point and the service are probably best told by
others for most of them involved food. And basically my notions of food
are that it is something you eat. I don't get all the fanciness of it.
Though I could tell the food here was special because everyone else was
raving so i ate what others raved about before and raved some myself. I
do have a liking for lamb. I'm not sure why memories associated with
lamb cooks on Easter in New England i suppose but the fact that it was a
lamb intended for WSB and now being fed to another group and it just
hits me now that perhaps patricia's lambs are not good for the heart
though she cooks them with more heart than anyone i've seen in years
decades maybe lifetimes. Patricia loves to cook and it was good that
she was cooking because it was her way of releasing tensions and it was
a way she could release the tensions of the week in such a beautiful
manner -- as opposed to the way she was sleeping the floor.
Sweeping the floor is not the word for it. No offense to patricia but
when i walked into the day room area it appeared that she hand somehow
made a kindly whisk broom turn into a chainsaw and was lashing at the
floor and while the dust was running away quite fast from the chainsaw
the beauty of the hardwood was in danger. I asked if I could help with
anything and she handed me the broom. One of my best memories of the
entire Lawrence experience was me waltzing with the broom - i believe
the anniversary waltz it was - yes that was it and we waltzed around the
room moving furniture here and there until the project was nearly
compleat. I had never enjoyed cleaning anything so thoroughly and in
the time i'd waltzed with the broom patricia had magically created
thirty three zillion more kinds of food.
People came. We ate. Old old old old man named George K. was there and
asked for salt and everyone laughed because evidently that was something
WSB often said about patricia's wonderful cooking. A generational thing
the amount of salt on the food. Food glorious food everywhere and i ate
and ate three or five trips through the line - invisible several times
so that nobody knew what a glutton i was eating my way through whatever
feelings were brewing inside.
I was exhausted. The comraderie had already been more than fitting
salute to the ace of the Shakespeare Squadron and my biological clock
that says "SIESTA SIESTA" everyday was screaming it very loudly. Just
then George asked how to say "Party Pooper" in French and i was able to
say the only French i knew and as George and Carl(Karl) left i was able
to jump for joy and begin to race to my bedroom:
I forgot to tell about my special bedroom well perhaps later.
I went downstairs and laid myself to rest.
When I returned the group was much much much much smaller. Bill H. Bob.
M. Danny Danny Danny and Patricia and she was leaving soon. It appeared
that the siesta blues had hit the place a dark cloud descending. DID
SOMEBODY DIE? I yelled. I was so shocked wondering where that had come
from that i have no idea what the others reactions were but Danny did
tell a wonderful dream of a place where the natives lived only off the
quote capitalized Dark Liquids unquote uncapitalized. And we laughed
and laughed and made more coffee and called the coffee dark liquids and
anytime that evening that someone ordered coffee there was much hyena
laughter from our group.
We left in separate vehicles to head downtown for the opera house.....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:37:46 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Western Lands p.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'm wondering if anyone who understands all this technology really well
can have more luck with the references to Jelly Roll Morton and "Dead
Man Blues" on the first page of Western Lands. I pulled off Paul
Oliver's "Meaning of the Blues" and found no discussion of it but much
about the blues and death and thought of all the blues why this
particular one. I did find a web site of Jelly Roll Morton that
provided some information at:
http://web.fie.com/~tonya/morton.htm
Also saw that Dylan played it somewhere sometime along the many songs.
I wonder if the lyrics add to the power of the notion of the writer
without words being more than just a dead writer?
I have many more questions in the first few pages of the first chapter
of Western Lands but I'll start at the start with page one and Jelly
Roll.
The cover of my copy of Western Lands (penguin paperback) includes
phrase "unerring ability to crack the codes that make up the life of
this century ..." and i imagine that throughout this book i'm going to
need a ton of help on understanding what the code was that burroughs
thought cracked. I think this book will be fascinating reading and
particularly timely reading for many on the list.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 09:23:37 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Women of the Beat Generation (Audio)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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So i found this four cassette series titled Women of the Beat Generation
at the Public Library and i've been listening to it in my car when i'm
driving.
I'm finished Side A of the first tape so far. I need to do more
driving. But I have a problem.
The library checks the stuff out in generic packaging so i have no
listing of the tracks of who's who and what's what. It isn't so easy to
write that down as i'm driving and my memory for names is much better if
i see it in writing.
If somebody knows the order of the poets on the Women of the Beat
Generation audio series i'd love to hear about it.
Thanks,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:42:10 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: mail server
Comments: To: love_singing@msn.com
In a message dated 97-08-10 03:22:34 EDT, you write:
<< crossing my fingers this gets to the list, >>
Uncross them might need the dexterity for something else. There were some
forces in the electromagnetic swirl the past few days. Maybe B scorched the
cosmos. Anyway, many had trouble in the net, if not trouble in mind.
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:13:09 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Burroughs biographies
In-Reply-To: <970810104207_132107584@emout20.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Which is the best Burroughs bio? "Literary Outlaw" or the other one by
Barry Miles? For someone wanting to read about Bill's life, which is
more accurate?
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:24:54 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Western Lands p.1
Comments: To: race@midusa.net, Seward23@aol.com
In a message dated 97-08-10 08:40:08 EDT, you write:
<< "unerring ability to crack the codes that make up the life of
this century ..." and i imagine that throughout this book i'm going to
need a ton of help on understanding what the code was that burroughs
thought cracked >>
Don't read for answers or understanding from the top down unless you already
know the universe. It doesn't reveal its secrets easily and not always in a
language code. All of B's contemporaries who had a brain said that in their
works: Lewis Thomas, Bucky Fuller, Loren Eiseley, Stephen Hawkins, et al. All
the great thinkers knew that we probably won't get enough of the picture of
this reality plane anyway. More problematic is that they all indicated we had
but a "ghost of a chance" as B said. Bucky Fuller said it would be very close
or something like that, meaning that humanity is coming to a reckoning and
can we survive? Typically, the simplest words are used for these problems;
there are rarely other words. When Crick and Watson discovered the helix,
they had to use simple metaphor "code" for the genetic code. Many discoveries
that we've named, the metaphor became the meaning. Think what it was to live
in a world before the "naming of things" because they hadn't "existed" in the
perceptive mind. So, the "codes" Bill meant were all things in the perceived
and unperceive universe that operate and rely on some passing of information
to evolve its own specie. Of course, with B. the layers of meanings and
possiblities are usually reduced to the lowest common linguistc cliche, old
racetrack jargon, con talk or his mimicking of meaningful discourse, always
with layer of generational symbolism that can't be expressed any other way
and hangs around in the language for a long time. A latent virus, so to
speak, that waits to break the cell's code to gain entry and take over the
system (body). It' just another layer that the double agent spy codes, etc.
worked exactly the same way to penetrate their "commie cells" for instance,
during the cold war. In B, the words are the text, all the other elements of
the "plot," which throughout the universe always has invasive nature.
Literary conventions are arbitrary, unless they have a linguistic value at
the same time. Everything needs information. In our species most crave it
thinking that it might help whatever agenda they have to fulfill (moral,
political, religious, etc.) Why do you think the numbers of people on this
list increased all of a sudden? ha ha!
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:33:08 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs biographies
Comments: To: rwallner@capaccess.org
I prefer by far Literary Outlaw. I've known briefly both authors personally
so my favoritism is probably based on it. I've not read Miles', but I felt
that his biography of Ginsberg had to have been "authorized" . Morgan has
done a lot of other books, a biography of FDR, Somerset Maughan that are good
reads. Of course Barry Miles ran off with one of my old girlfriends so my
opinions are always skewed; although, some have said I can see right through
people.
CP
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:43:31 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Cross posting from RMD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>From time to time, I check out the Dylan news group. I used to post
there a lot till I found the beat-l and found it to be more fun, and
less spam. (Wonderful spam!). There has been raging a fierce war
between the condemn Burroughs to hell and the Burroughs just told the
truth folks. I have found several posts that are quite good in the
defense of Burroughs. The ones that lead into them are quite bad but
have been repeated in the follow up posts. I sent two that I thought
were particularly good to P and she said that they good food for
thought. I am going to post those two to the list, because I think they
contain good summaries of the merits of WSB's work.
The posts are not intended to draw comments, and we certainly do not
need to discuss the drivel that lead to these posts. But, I think it is
helpful to the list to gain a perspective of how some who are not on the
list perceive and defend WSB. If anyone wants to comment, feel free.
But these two posts are cross posts and will be labeled as such. I do
not intend to comment on them, just cross post.
If you care to see the full exchanges, point your news reader at:
rec.music.dylan
Then check out the burroughs rot in hell thread, or something like that.
Peace,
Thanks.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:50:52 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Cross post number 1
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Subject:
Re: Burroughs and Dylan (please add: Misanthrope)
Date:
Tue, 5 Aug 1997 16:16:41 +1000
From:
Glenn Cooper <gwcooper@MPX.COM.AU>
Newsgroups:
rec.music.dylan
>1. Drug addict
Ex-drug addict. But, ummm, so what? I see no connection between lack
of
morality and drug addiction.
>2. Murderer
It was an *accident*.
>3. Adulterer
I'd say 50% of the adult population would be adulterers. Besides,
utterly
irellevant.
>4. Pedophile
Absolutely not. Quoting Burroughs himself: "I say anyone who engages
in
sex with minors is nothing but a fiend."
>5. Draft-Dodger
An admirable quality.
>6. Obscene and incoherent writer
"Obscene" and "incoherent" to whom exactly? Watch your semantics,
young
man.
>7. MISANTHROPE*
Difficult to refute. Probably more accurate to say he was hater of a
certain kind of human being. Paul Bullen being a good example.
>Second, to what extent should Bob Dylan be cast in the same lot with
Burroughs?
From a purely literary point of view, there are some obvious parellels
between Dylan's mid 60's writing and Burroughs' cut-up novels. We also
have
the mid-1980's comment from Dylan to Ginsberg: "Tell Burroughs I've been
reading him, and I believe every word he says."
>From my perspective, one of the benefits of Dylan becoming a Christian was
>to free himself from the nihilistic perversion of certain literary types.
Apparently not, because the above comment was made *after* Dylan's
so-called conversion to Christianity.
>It is not my desire to get into a shouting match with anyone, so please
try
>to express yourself in accordance with the pretense that the person you
are
>communicating with is a fellow sentient being. Thank you.
Burroughs believed that mankind was evolving into different
sub-species,
that one person was not necessarily the same species as another. I'd
like
to
think that I am as far removed from Mr. Bullen and his ilk as is
possible.
Have a good day.
Glenn C.
________________________________________________________________________________
"The bible is probably the most genocidal book in our entire canon."
- Noam Chomsky.
____________________________________________________________________________
____
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:55:34 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Cross post No. 2
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Subject:
Re: Burroughs and Dylan
Date:
5 Aug 1997 12:25:32 GMT
From:
zureick@ucunix.san.uc.edu (John H. Zureick)
Organization:
University of Cincinnati
Newsgroups:
rec.music.dylan
References:
1
In article <v01540b06b00bef99236d@[128.135.18.173]>,
Paul Bullen <bul1@MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:
>Among Bob Dylan fans there seem to be some that treasure a certain lineage
>which does not include his becoming a Christian (or orthodox Jew). The
>lineage extends from Rimbaud to Ginsberg and includes a number of others
>whose life-styles that most people would consider unsavory. One of these
>people is Burroughs, who just died. There has already been one
>Dylan-related expression of remorse at his passing, including the claim
>that he was the greatest writer of the twentieth century (a view I doubt
is
>widely shared). As usual I have no more than a citizen's interest in the
>matter, but I would like to play the devil's advocate since there seems to
>be something terribly wrong with some people's values, from my
perspective.
>Burroughs seems to have been all of the following:
>
>1. Drug addict -- who's not?
>2. Murderer -- bad shot!
>3. Adulterer -- never bothered my wife
>4. Pedophile -- my, that's a big word for a ten year old
>5. Draft-Dodger -- isn't this a Phil Och's song?
>6. Obscene and incoherent writer -- how you gonna learn anything with your
head in a book all day, son?
>
>First, as a purely factual matter. How close do each of these
>characterizations come to the truth? There is little point engaging in
You forgot "lying to his mommy".
>to express yourself in accordance with the pretense that the person you
are
>communicating with is a fellow sentient being. Thank you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please provide some proof of this. :)
Burroughs wrote some straight ahead stuff so he was not always an
"incoherent" writer. I think his so-called incoherence, or lack of
straight narrative style, was a strategy, a moving cover behind which
many original and beautiful ideas hid. For instance his theory that
language was a virus. I love that!
I've always had to cherry pick where Burroughs was involved. I pick up
his books in the library, read a few pages and put it back down. He
kickstarts my thinking from time to time. That is, I try to read his
books in the library if every copy has not been stolen. Which tells
you something!
I always admire anybody who has the courage to be an original artist,
especially one who actually has something to say.
I suppose I most identify with Burroughs in that he seemed to be lost in
this world.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:00:21 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Dylan news group
MIME-Version: 1.0
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There are more good posts on Burroughs on the Dylan news group. Some of
the responses are filled with very good humor. Check it out if you have
some time.
Peace
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 12:46:42 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Burroughs biographies
Comments: To: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <970810113307_886383406@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
> I prefer by far Literary Outlaw. I've known briefly both authors personally
> so my favoritism is probably based on it. I've not read Miles', but I felt
> that his biography of Ginsberg had to have been "authorized" . Morgan has
> done a lot of other books, a biography of FDR, Somerset Maughan that are good
> reads. Of course Barry Miles ran off with one of my old girlfriends so my
> opinions are always skewed; although, some have said I can see right through
> people.
Not having had any significant others stolen by either authors involved,
I'd have to say that Morgan is more thorough, which is probably
proportional to the amount of bookshelf space it takes up, but Miles is
more entertaining. Morgan employs a unique narrative strategy for a
biography where he uses free indirect discourse to get you inside
Burroughs' mind (all reconstructed from copious interviews and Burroughs'
writing). You can tell when Burroughs' voice starts and Morgan's stops
though; like Gysin said, when you read a Burroughs' word, you know
it's his, because it eats through the page like acid. Miles is a better
storyteller, and I find the literary criticism portions of his book more
enlightening, especially when dealing with the influence of Jack Black
and Denton Welch on the last trilogy. Miles is also essential for an
understanding of the workings of the Ugly Spirit, whereas Joan's death is
covered extensively in Morgan's. My suggestion is read'em both, I did.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:08:49 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Cross post number 1
In-Reply-To: <33EDE35C.3B08F4F2@scsn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> >4. Pedophile
>
> Absolutely not. Quoting Burroughs himself: "I say anyone who engages
> in sex with minors is nothing but a fiend."
I can see how someone might misconstrue this from some of Burroughs'
writing (not that the idiots who posted this crap in the first place have
ever read any Burroughs...) Those of you reading the letters book will
eventually come across a line from Burroughs to Ginsberg along the lines
of: "Great to be back in Tangiers, boys are plentiful, no holes barred."
>From what I understand, Burroughs' proclivities did not extend to minors
though, but certainly Kiki had to be in his late teens, or early twenties,
but it was all consensual so who can condemn?
> >7. MISANTHROPE*
>
> Difficult to refute. Probably more accurate to say he was hater of a
> certain kind of human being. Paul Bullen being a good example.
Actually impossible to refute. Burroughs quotes Gysin all the time: "Man
is a bad animal." In _Ghost of Chance_ Burroughs says straight out that
he's given up on homo sap. Of course, he doesn't hate all humanity--
certainly not the Johnson's and artists in the space program--
but he certainly does hate shits who don't mind their own business, and
run around condemning people with their God talk.
> >Second, to what extent should Bob Dylan be cast in the same lot with
> Burroughs?
>
> From a purely literary point of view, there are some obvious parellels
> between Dylan's mid 60's writing and Burroughs' cut-up novels.
Parallels can certainly be drawn between _Tarantula_ and some of
Burroughs' writing (although personally I think Tarantula is a big book
crap).
> We also have
> the mid-1980's comment from Dylan to Ginsberg: "Tell Burroughs I've been
> reading him, and I believe every word he says."
I'd love to find out where Dylan said that. For Burroughs on Dylan, look
up Dylan in the index of Bockris' With _William Burroughs: A Report from
the Bunker_. Burroughs says something along the lines of: "He was a good
looking kid, and a very earnest young man. Although I don't know much
about music myself, he certainly seemed to know what he was talking
about." Quoting from memory here, but it's pretty accurate I believe. Not
all that laudatory a comment, but Dylan doesn't need Burroughs'
commendation in my books.
It is kind of fun to mend these condemnations into commendations. I
was warned about the stuff on r.m.d. and not wanting to raise my ire
because of some bible-thumping morons, I shied away. If anybody remembers,
the arguments on the list about that NAMBLA crap after Ginsberg died
originated in a cross-post from r.m.d. too. I've read r.m.d. for years,
but there are altogether too many religious shits on the list (shit being
defined in the Burroughsian sense of people who don't mind their own
business and let other people mind theirs. Burroughs himself never had a
problem with religious people who didn't bother others, just those that
push a program, and make it their business to decide who goes to hell).
Later,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 13:21:01 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Cross post number 1
Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Neil Hennessy wrote:
>
> > >4. Pedophile
> >
> > Absolutely not. Quoting Burroughs himself: "I say anyone who
> engages
> > in sex with minors is nothing but a fiend."
>
> I can see how someone might misconstrue this from some of Burroughs'
> writing (not that the idiots who posted this crap in the first place
> have
> ever read any Burroughs...) Those of you reading the letters book will
> eventually come across a line from Burroughs to Ginsberg along the
> lines
> of: "Great to be back in Tangiers, boys are plentiful, no holes
> barred."
> >From what I understand, Burroughs' proclivities did not extend to
> minors
> though, but certainly Kiki had to be in his late teens, or early
> twenties,
> but it was all consensual so who can condemn?
>
> > >7. MISANTHROPE*
> >
> > Difficult to refute. Probably more accurate to say he was hater of
> a
> > certain kind of human being. Paul Bullen being a good example.
>
> Actually impossible to refute. Burroughs quotes Gysin all the time:
> "Man
> is a bad animal." In _Ghost of Chance_ Burroughs says straight out
> that
> he's given up on homo sap. Of course, he doesn't hate all humanity--
> certainly not the Johnson's and artists in the space program--
> but he certainly does hate shits who don't mind their own business,
> and
> run around condemning people with their God talk.
>
> > >Second, to what extent should Bob Dylan be cast in the same lot
> with
> > Burroughs?
> >
> > From a purely literary point of view, there are some obvious
> parellels
> > between Dylan's mid 60's writing and Burroughs' cut-up novels.
>
> Parallels can certainly be drawn between _Tarantula_ and some of
> Burroughs' writing (although personally I think Tarantula is a big
> book
> crap).
>
> > We also have
> > the mid-1980's comment from Dylan to Ginsberg: "Tell Burroughs I've
> been
> > reading him, and I believe every word he says."
>
> I'd love to find out where Dylan said that. For Burroughs on Dylan,
> look
> up Dylan in the index of Bockris' With _William Burroughs: A Report
> from
> the Bunker_. Burroughs says something along the lines of: "He was a
> good
> looking kid, and a very earnest young man. Although I don't know much
> about music myself, he certainly seemed to know what he was talking
> about." Quoting from memory here, but it's pretty accurate I believe.
> Not
> all that laudatory a comment, but Dylan doesn't need Burroughs'
> commendation in my books.
>
> It is kind of fun to mend these condemnations into commendations. I
> was warned about the stuff on r.m.d. and not wanting to raise my ire
> because of some bible-thumping morons, I shied away. If anybody
> remembers,
> the arguments on the list about that NAMBLA crap after Ginsberg died
> originated in a cross-post from r.m.d. too. I've read r.m.d. for
> years,
> but there are altogether too many religious shits on the list (shit
> being
> defined in the Burroughsian sense of people who don't mind their own
> business and let other people mind theirs. Burroughs himself never had
> a
> problem with religious people who didn't bother others, just those
> that
> push a program, and make it their business to decide who goes to
> hell).
>
> Later,
> Neil
Neil:
Good post. Some of the replies on Burroughs are quite humorous and
worth reading as the shits are sent to the sewer.
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 10:23:32 -0700
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
Comments: To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Neil Henry wrote:
>
> First off, thanks Leon for your kind words. I'm not sure where you got
> the info below:
>
> > > Maybe we can persuade Luke Kelly to put our list-last-words-posts
> > > through his cutup machine. I see you had a hand in encouraging him to do
> > > those cutup experiments.>
> > The cut-up experiments Luke is doing were his brilliant idea from the
> > start. I corresponded with him after he had produced some results, telling
> > him how impressed I was at the idea, and the fruition of the first part of
> > the project, so if that's what you mean by encouraging him, then
> > certainly I did, however Luke gets all the credit for the endeavour.
So I went to Luke's Restaurant, The Big Table. Now where was that
goodie. Now me, that's my weakness. Cut Ups. Browsing in bookstores.
Some people eat meals. Me I just pick up a morsel here a morsel there.
No full course dinners, but nibble all day. Mmm delicious. What great
stuff. Images. Word Hoards. Research. But the hours are going by and I
was a man with a purpose. So I go to the search engine. I ask for Neil
and what do I get:
> Hennessy, Neil. "Literary Outlaws: Gunslinging Writers in The Collected Works
of Billy > the Kid and The Place of Dead Roads" Email: nhenness@uwaterloo.ca
Hmmm. Interesting. Didn't notice you also got a recipe in the cookbook.
But that's all the search gets me. Back to cut ups. I know it's where I
saw it. After a couple of runs backwards and forwards, I ain't
complaining mind you, a kid in a candy shop, and here, I found it. I
did not hallucinate it:
Says Luke in The Johnson Family plate:
> As caretaker of Big Table Media and overworked programmer, I have decided to
pile yet
> another project on the table. Following George Landow's lead and Neil
Hennessy's
> suggestion, I am writing a series of programs to interface with you, the
clever > reader.
> http://www.bigtable.com/johnsons/
Snip, snip, fer bandwith sake, but this last one, what a gem:
> My favourite last words of a writer were Oscar Wilde's. A pure aesthete
> until the end, lying sick in his bed, he looked at the putrid coloured
> wallpaper in the room and said, "Either that wallpaper has to go, or I
> do," and he died. When you tempt death with your aesthetic, you are dead.
>
> Neil Hennessy
> .-
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:15:10 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: ps/alm 23 revised (patti smith)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
stolen from the patti smith list
props to phillip who found and typed
-Douglas
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
ps/alm 23 revisited
for William Burroughs
The word is his shepherd
he shall not want
he spreads like the eagle
upon the green hill
boys of the Alhambra
in vivid sash
serve him still
your orange juice, sir
your fishing pole
accepting all
with tender grace
and besting us
with this advice
children never be ashamed
wrestle smile walk in sun
thank you, Bill
your will be done
God grant you
mind and medicine
we draw our hearts
and you within
moral vested
Gentleman
(c) 1994 Patti Smith
page 100 in EARLY WORKS
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 11:45:24 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
In-Reply-To: <33EDF914.685F282F@cruzio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:23 AM -0700 8/10/97, Leon Tabory wrote:
> > http://www.bigtable.com/johnsons/
ah, finally found my way to this great site!
Found the Burroughs Memorial Service image
[http://www.bigtable.com/images/bill/prog1.gif], and on it there was
"Ulysses" by A.Tennyson (read by David Ohle). Can someone please explain
why this was read and it's significance? This story of one man's journey
seems to be everywhere....
> leon
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:23:58 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs biographies
In-Reply-To: <970810113307_886383406@emout15.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Miles' biography is okay as far as a decent read and scan over Burroughs'
life. Has a little too much literary analysis by Miles for my taste. Go
for Literary Outlaw if you've got the time (its a hefty read).
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:08:24 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Anthony Balch (1938-1980)
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Anthony Balch (1938-1980) was one of the key figures in British film
distribution in the 60s and 70s, especially because of his distribution of
European art-house and exploitation films under new, captivating titles.
Famous for having added a soundtrack to the classic silent-era documentary,
Benjamin Christensen's Hdxen (Witchcraft Through the Ages), with comments
by his friend William S Burroughs, he began his brief foray into directing
with Burroughs himself (Towers Open Fire, The Cut-Ups), and was still
obviously influenced by Burroughs in Secrets of Sex.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:16:19 -0400
Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>
Subject: For Michael Stutz: Cutup Comments
Comments: cc: DAVIDSROSEN@compuserve.com
Michael:
I generally concur with your ideas and observations in your post to me from
97-08-06 17:23:51 EDT, & to Douglas Penn from 97-08-06 17:46:28 EDT.
You suggest that "further experiments could be made with his work" by
computer methods, etc. This should be done, WSB has led the way and his
creations are not necessarily "the last word" (not to get into another hot
subject here lately), as I've mentioned in earlier (pre-shock) dispatches,
some of the works, such as THE SOFT MACHINE, are arranged and composed
differently in various printings. NAKED LUNCH, he instructs us near the
end(?), can be read in any order, pick a page, any page. WSB often left to
chance, or to the organizational efforts of others, the order and arrangement
of his works, NL accumulated on the floor of the Villa Muniria in Tangier for
3 years until Kerouac got to work on (and had nightmares over) it. So, I am
certain he would approve of your ideas, there is no beginning, middle or end
to his theories or their applications, that's the point! One of the many,
many realizations borne of grief that I've had over the last week is how WSB
recovers the magic in the seemingly simplist "realities"- for example, his
ideas about art. The shooting of a panel opens onto a "Port of Entry" into a
further dimension, there is a glimpse of the universe ("black insect lusts
open out into vast, other-planet landscapes"-NL). In the film biography
BURROUGHS, he states that "every particle of the universe contains the whole
of the universe", and that by cutting-up something he has cut-up, and
therefore subverted the pre-recorded inevitability of, the universe. I'm
surprised that J. Edgar Hoover never caught up with WSB and arranged an
"accident", he was and is a far greater threat to our "National Security"
than those who "sell the ground from unborn feet forever" ever realized. His
ideas about art are also a classic example of another realization that my
intense reflection on his life and work in the wake of his passing has
produced. It is so, so easy at so many points to dismiss WSB altogether, he
has built a road almost as perilous as that which he describes in THE WESTERN
LANDS, with the odds set against most people making it far enough to
understand and appreciate what he's getting at. "Come on, all he did was
shoot a door, all this supposed philosophy behind it is a joke he's played on
the public....", etc., I can imagine most people I know saying, or far worse.
But he's completely right, completely in tune with the realities behind the
smokescreen of "realities" that keep us in line. The same goes for the
cutups, the fact that "anyone can cut up & reorder texts" does not diminish
the significance of disrupting the universal order, if he can fling a door
open, why can't others? He has left us with an idea to run with, and
precedents for its application. The example you gave of the variations on
the letters that spell ALLEN GINSBERG are amazingly prescient and prove that
WSB wasn't kidding us or himself. "Genres nag bill" encapsulates much of
what's discussed above and a key aspect of his life & work. He fought and
won against established methods, categories and linear "realities". AG, WSB
& JK all had "beginners gall", they were pioneers, it may be true as I said
above that anyone can fling the door open, but someone has to bravely do it
first for people to follow. "Bells enraging", they were driven by inner
voices and demons, and their assimilations of roller coasters of experience,
away from and toward the pursuit of "IT", leaving us their testaments. As
for the last 2 phrases you posted, they tell a lot about the personal
proclivities of AG, don't they? It would be worth slogging through millions
of garbled, unintelligible variations (as you may have had to do to find
these, like panning for gold) to extract these DNA-like phrases. As you point
out, WSB and a few others in this waning century draw our attention to the
whole PROCESS of which a shot-up door, a cut-up text or all the combinations
of the letters of 1 name are a part.
In your post to DP, you wrote that "advertising is a now-necessary
energy-gathering tool for the Corporate Virus. It was not always here, and
it will not always be." I agree with the first sentence, but not completely
with the second. I have seen evidence of early advertisements in the ruins
of ancient cities such as Ephasis, once part of the Roman Empire in what is
now Turkey. Advertising, the commerce that it serves and war, which is
always good for the winners' economy, have been with us since the beginning
of our wondrous & appalling species. The problem is that the ante has been
upped to levels that now threaten our imminent destruction, or at least
thinning out. Sticks & stones have evolved into nuclear weapons that can
(still, despite the "end" of the cold war) destroy our fragile, precious
planet many times over. Advertising has indeed become an "energy-gathering
tool for the corporate virus", it has cowed, hypnotized and subliminally
seduced our society into undergoing the mephistopholian metamorphoses from
citizens to consumers, now about to be consumed themselves. To overlap with
another of our favorite topics, think of the auto ads that flood the tv
screen. The newest model whatever is your "reward" after "you did your job,
you did it well....", the light at the end of the toilsome tunnel, parked
right on the beach or in an idyllic field next to a ride in the hay, or
zooming down an otherwise empty road amidst breathtaking natural scenery.
But what is the reality behind the imagery? The exact opposite of what it
promises- Orwell's prophecies fulfilled and then some. Freedom is Slavery.
(Include by reference here my New Urbanist diatribes with which you're
familiar). And what about the brand of beer that will turn you into a
perfect specimen and get you laid according to the commercial? Several
belches and pisses later, you're the same as you were before only a little
flabbier, depressed and resentful. WSB and the other Greats (among which he
was the Greatest) saw right through the bullshit, played with it, stayed a
step ahead of it, fooled it. Sometimes I think that his ideas about space,
that we are HERE TO GO and that we must evolve physically & mentally into
space, is partly an acknowledgement that we won't be able to overcome the
natures that first manifested themselves in rock-throwing exchanges, ads
carved into paving stones for brothels, etc. We're not just ultimately here
to go, we'd better get out of here ASAP, before it's too late.
I should note, not necessarily in the right place, that in his complex
brilliance, WSB also shows the often tawdry reality in "magic". Again, TWL
presents a cumbersome, impractical afterlife, based on his study of ancient
Egyptian concepts, arguably less fair even than the temporal life that
preceded it.
Enough for now. Have you left for your adventure? Unfortunately, it won't
include The Visit, but we who are left behind must continue the quest.
Regards,
Arthur
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:19:06 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs biographies
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I've read "With William Burroughs: A Report from the Bunker." It isn't a
biography, per se, but it really let's you see Burroughs as a person. It's a
book full of conversations, conducted by Burroughs with others, including Allen
Ginsberg. I've never read the others, but I know that I like this one.
At 12:46 PM 8/10/97 -0400, Neil Hennessy wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
>> I prefer by far Literary Outlaw. I've known briefly both authors personally
>> so my favoritism is probably based on it. I've not read Miles', but I felt
>> that his biography of Ginsberg had to have been "authorized" . Morgan has
>> done a lot of other books, a biography of FDR, Somerset Maughan that are good
>> reads. Of course Barry Miles ran off with one of my old girlfriends so my
>> opinions are always skewed; although, some have said I can see right through
>> people.
>
>Not having had any significant others stolen by either authors involved,
>I'd have to say that Morgan is more thorough, which is probably
>proportional to the amount of bookshelf space it takes up, but Miles is
>more entertaining. Morgan employs a unique narrative strategy for a
>biography where he uses free indirect discourse to get you inside
>Burroughs' mind (all reconstructed from copious interviews and Burroughs'
>writing). You can tell when Burroughs' voice starts and Morgan's stops
>though; like Gysin said, when you read a Burroughs' word, you know
>it's his, because it eats through the page like acid. Miles is a better
>storyteller, and I find the literary criticism portions of his book more
>enlightening, especially when dealing with the influence of Jack Black
>and Denton Welch on the last trilogy. Miles is also essential for an
>understanding of the workings of the Ugly Spirit, whereas Joan's death is
>covered extensively in Morgan's. My suggestion is read'em both, I did.
>
>Neil
>
>
<center>--------------------------------------------------
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com || elwellgr@juno.com
<<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
</center> --------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:10:15 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
Comments: To: babu@electriciti.com
As I remember, David prefaced his reading by saying it was one of Bill's
favorite poems.
cp
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 18:13:14 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Regarding Last Words...
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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:
>
> As I remember, David prefaced his reading by saying it was one of Bill's
> favorite poems.
> cp
as i recall he told a story saying that he was over at WSB's and they
were talking about "this and that" and WSB handed him the poem and asked
him to read it to him.
i think Charles is right that he said it was also one of WSB's
favourites.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 16:31:29 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Anthony Balch (1938-1980)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970810230824.0068c1f0@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 2:08 PM -0700 8/10/97, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> with Burroughs himself (Towers Open Fire, The Cut-Ups), and was still
I love that movie! Got a chance to see it during the Burroughs art exhibit
at Los Angeles County Museum of Art this last fall <?). The direction is
wonderful! The rest of the films were very good too, but "towers open
fire' was my favorite.
and I gotta tell ya, my girlfriend is on the road, well, I kinda think
she's AWOL, not OTR, but that's a different story. So I got this letter in
the mail today from her. Been sitting in my mailbox for a couple of days
at least. I'm all excited, hoping to finally have some tidbits or news
regarding her journey. And what does she send me in one letter?
a: "portland art museum northwest film center" film guide. On the 17th,
"the life and times of allen ginsberg (1992)" and "pull my daisy (1959)".
Then on the 18th, 19th, we have "Kerouac (1984)" and "Burroughs (1984)".
and with all these pictures, there's this snippet from Ginsberg's "laughing
gas":
O waves of probable
and improbable
Universes---
Everybody's right
I'll finish this poem
in my next life.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:34:40 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Big Sur
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I decided to get in one more Kerouac work, Big Sur, before we begin out
On the Road/Naked Lunch/Howl discussion. I think this is my favorite
Kerouac book thus far. Even though he is in despair and very much in the
tug of alcoholism at this point, I think he is much more honest about
where he is and what people are telling him about where he is. He
reveals more about why he and Cody are so close and also, in his
conversations with Billie, you get, for once, the idea that people are
trying to help him and he simply says no because he doesn't feel worthy.
There's really a pretty deep-seated self-hatred showing up at this point
and I always wonder where it came from, because he always talks about
having such a great childhood. Not being a psychotherapist, however, my
own stab at this is the fact that maybe he always felt that he should of
died instead of Gerard because he and everyone seems to have felt that
his brother was so good.
In his conversations with Billie (btw does anyone know who Billie in Big
Sur refers to in actual life? Also Ruth Erickson, Ruth Heaper, and Julien
in Desolate Angels?) you actually get a sense of where his despair is in
terms of relationships.
>From Big Sur
"Jack: Billie I dont wanta get married, I'm afraid...
Billie: Afraid?
Jack: I wanna go home and die with my cat. I could be a handsome thin
young president in a suit sitting in an old fashioned rocking chair, no
instead I'm the Phantom of the Opera standing by a drape among dead fish
and broken chairs--Can it be that no one cares who made me or why?
Billie: Jack, what's the matter, what are you talking about...
Jack: What have I done wrong?
Billie: What you've done wrong is withhold your love from a woman like me
and from previous women and future women like me--can you imagine all the
fun we'd have being married, putting Elliott to bed, going out to hear
jazz or even taking planes to Paris suddenly and all the things I have
to teach you and you teach me--instead all you've been doing is wasting
your life sitting around and wondering where to go and all time it's
right here fore you to take--
Jack: Suppose I don't want it...I'm a strange creepy guy you dont even
know."
He also talks about Cody--"And finally in the book I wrote about us ('On
the Road') I forgot to mention two important things, that we were both
devout little Catholics in our childhood, which gave us something in
common tho we never talk about it, it's just there in our natures, and
secondly, and most important that strange business where we shared
another girl...some kind of new thing in the world actually where men can
really be angelic friends and not be homosexual and not fight over
girls--But alas the only thing we ever fought about was money..."
I also really liked this next section, even though it also is pretty much
made up of despair. What frustrates me is the fact that all the time he
is saying, why live if you are only going to die eventually? instead of
saying what more made up the beat philosophy, which is, live now because
you are going to die.
>From Big Sur, pgs. 182-183
"I suddenly remembered James Joyce and stare at the waves realizing All
summer you were sitting here writing the so called sound of the waves not
realizing how deadly serious our life and doom is, you fool, you happy
kid with a pencil, dont you realize you've been using words as a happy
game--all those marvelous skeptical things you wrote about graves and sea
death it's ALL TRUE YOU FOOLS! Joyce is dead! The sea took him! It will
take YOU! and I look down the beach and there's Billie wading in the
treacherous undertow, she's already groaned several times earlier (seeing
my indifference and also of course the hopelessness at Cody's and the
hopelessness of her wrecked apartment and wretched life) 'Someday I'm
going to commit suicide.' I suddenly wonder if she's going to horrify the
heavens and me too with a sudden suicide walk into those awful
undertows...Can it be I'm withholding from her something sacred just like
she says, or am I just a fool who'll never learn to have a decent
eternally minded deepdown relation with a woman and keep throwing that
away for a song at a bottle?--In which case my own life is over anyway
and there are the Joycean waves with there blank mothers saying 'Yes,
that's so,' and there are the leaves hurrying one by one down the sand
and dumping in--....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:56:34 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: For Michael Stutz: Cutup Comments
Comments: To: SSASN@aol.com
The tawdry magic is a magic of is own. It's part of his "Carnival". That may
be, perhaps his closest genre. I go to cheap local carnivals up and down the
Appalachia. Pam can't stand it and wonders why I go. I go to visit Burroughs.
He has sprinkled his magic on me, and I liked it. Mainly because I know he
can back up my vision in that multi-faceted world of the pitch that bares the
elemental self of old American weirdness that has roamed this land for many
years. He is aslo a philosopher historian, an Herodotus, making sure to get
the anectdotal essence needed to grow in the text. The tapes of NL and J laid
the presence back on me, even in the hideous nightmare of the Interstate
landscapes of prosperous hell.
A line of Emerson keeps coming back. Many may think of it pertaining to
religion. I see it everywhere I look: "There is a crack in everything God
has made."
Cp
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 19:20:33 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: (no subject)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"I'll be back"
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 20:40:36 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Comments: To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> "I'll be back"
When, and as a "good gal" or a "bad gal"?
--
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:24:22 -0000
Reply-To: jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: was it an open casket?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I've come not to attend funerals knowing there is an open casket...Was
this the case with Burrough's funeral?
Jason "donutman" Helfman
Three-Ring Creations
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 22:48:16 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
>
> Pat...Everything o.k.? Please post
> cp
Yes,I am ok. I have to work, I am presenting a seminar on deconstruction
for a EPA Brownsfield 97 Conference being held in KC, and i was tooooo
inegmatic for words. the comments on the service thing for william was
the last words written in his diary on the 1st. and rumor has it that
"I'll be back" was his last words leaving the house for the hospital, i
should not have said anything because it is rumor and not from a horses
mouth. It has been so emotional that i thought I should take a break
from posting..I am really looking forward to your posts, of on the road
east from lawrence. I love your posts you know.
p
p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:30:09 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: We'll miss you Bill
Comments: To: jgh3ring@ix.netcom.com
In a message dated 97-08-11 02:27:00 EDT, jgh3ring@ix.netcom.com (jgh3ring)
writes:
<< Subj: Re: We'll miss you Bill
Date: 97-08-11 02:27:00 EDT
From: jgh3ring@ix.netcom.com (jgh3ring)
To: CVEditions@aol.com
laughing
Jason "donutman" Helfman
Three-Ring Creations
>>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 02:34:05 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jackal laughing
Comments: To: jgh3ring@ix.netcom.com
In a message dated 97-08-11 02:27:00 EDT, you write:
<< Subj: Re: We'll miss you Bill
Date: 97-08-11 02:27:00 EDT
From: jgh3ring@ix.netcom.com (jgh3ring)
To: CVEditions@aol.com
laughing
Jason "donutman" Helfman
Three-Ring Creations
>>
Jump through all three of 'em, asshole!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 10:25:35 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Authorized Kerouac Bio
In-Reply-To: <970811023405_-119290238@emout07.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I heard recently that Douglas Brinkley, editor of the recently published
letters of Hunter S. Thompson, and author of "The Majic Bus" and a Carter
biography among other things, is writing the new "authorized" biography of
Jack Kerouac.
I guess this means Doug has been given the authorization and cooperation
of Jack's family (or his ex-wife's family to be more exact) I'm not
sure there's anything new to be written about Kerouac at this point, the
bios already out there seem to cover his life pretty well (hard to
imagine Doug would be more thorough than Gerry Nicosia or the others
who've done Kerouac bios)
But since his Carter bio is going tobe like three volumes, its
conceivable that he could turn out something even more exhaustive than
Nicosia's "Memory Babe" Doug Brinkley's a good writer who is passionate
about Kerouac so whatever he puts out on the subject is bound to be
worthwhile I s'pose.
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:12:20 -0400
Reply-To: Tread37@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jenn Fedor <Tread37@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: next reading project
i am definitely up for diane's suggestion! i am just finishing On the Road
(for the first time!) and would love to discuss it! also, i intended to
make Naked Lunch my next project, since i have to admit i have never read
burroughs before and thought it would be a good place to start (being fairly
new at the beat thing!) i have read Howl several times, but would love to
discuss! i hope this idea passes!
jenn:)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:14:49 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Authorized Kerouac Bio
Comments: To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Richard Wallner wrote:
> I heard recently that Douglas Brinkley, editor of the recently
> published
> letters of Hunter S. Thompson, and author of "The Majic Bus" and a
> Carter
> biography among other things, is writing the new "authorized"
> biography of
> Jack Kerouac.
>
> I guess this means Doug has been given the authorization and
> cooperation
> of Jack's family (or his ex-wife's family to be more exact) I'm not
> sure there's anything new to be written about Kerouac at this point,
> the
> bios already out there seem to cover his life pretty well (hard to
> imagine Doug would be more thorough than Gerry Nicosia or the others
> who've done Kerouac bios)
>
> But since his Carter bio is going tobe like three volumes, its
> conceivable that he could turn out something even more exhaustive than
>
> Nicosia's "Memory Babe" Doug Brinkley's a good writer who is
> passionate
> about Kerouac so whatever he puts out on the subject is bound to be
> worthwhile I s'pose.
>
> RJW
Gerry has said that whoever can gain the cooperation of the persons
who control of Jack's papers could write a "better" biography, assuming
that they could use the tapes that he recorded too. But, with
revisionist history seeming to be the rage these days, it might not be
possible to tell the truth in an "authorized" biography. The Jimi
Hendrix estate is hard at work trying to remake Jimi's life. They are
claiming that he was "spiked" with LSD at Monterry Pop Festival and that
his management set him up for the drug bust in Toronto. They also only
want "happy" pictures of Jimi and at one time thought about trying to
air brush some of his cigarettes out of pictures. Well, I would
presume, though I do not know, that the keepers of the Kerouac flame
might have the same ideas in mind. Only time and a published work will
tell. Personally, I would love to see an authorized biography that used
Jack's notebooks and was done properly. I do not think it would be
redundant.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 09:33:11 -0600
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Authorized Kerouac Bio
Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
In-Reply-To: <33EF2C69.217FB6C4@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
from what i understand from r.whitehead, d.brinkley in fact has been
picked to edit 2 volumes of jack kerouac's selected journals, and NOT a
new biography.
yrs
derek
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Richard Wallner wrote:
>
> > I heard recently that Douglas Brinkley, editor of the recently
> > published
> > letters of Hunter S. Thompson, and author of "The Majic Bus" and a
> > Carter
> > biography among other things, is writing the new "authorized"
> > biography of
> > Jack Kerouac.
> >
> > I guess this means Doug has been given the authorization and
> > cooperation
> > of Jack's family (or his ex-wife's family to be more exact) I'm not
> > sure there's anything new to be written about Kerouac at this point,
> > the
> > bios already out there seem to cover his life pretty well (hard to
> > imagine Doug would be more thorough than Gerry Nicosia or the others
> > who've done Kerouac bios)
> >
> > But since his Carter bio is going tobe like three volumes, its
> > conceivable that he could turn out something even more exhaustive than
> >
> > Nicosia's "Memory Babe" Doug Brinkley's a good writer who is
> > passionate
> > about Kerouac so whatever he puts out on the subject is bound to be
> > worthwhile I s'pose.
> >
> > RJW
>
> Gerry has said that whoever can gain the cooperation of the persons
> who control of Jack's papers could write a "better" biography, assuming
> that they could use the tapes that he recorded too. But, with
> revisionist history seeming to be the rage these days, it might not be
> possible to tell the truth in an "authorized" biography. The Jimi
> Hendrix estate is hard at work trying to remake Jimi's life. They are
> claiming that he was "spiked" with LSD at Monterry Pop Festival and that
> his management set him up for the drug bust in Toronto. They also only
> want "happy" pictures of Jimi and at one time thought about trying to
> air brush some of his cigarettes out of pictures. Well, I would
> presume, though I do not know, that the keepers of the Kerouac flame
> might have the same ideas in mind. Only time and a published work will
> tell. Personally, I would love to see an authorized biography that used
> Jack's notebooks and was done properly. I do not think it would be
> redundant.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:11:28 -0400
Reply-To: "Ted W. Nagy" <tnagy@PASS.WAYNE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ted W. Nagy" <tnagy@PASS.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dangerous Writing
Comments: To: Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>
In-Reply-To: <199708072341.QAA28873@mailtod-101.bryant.webtv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
The term "dangerous writing" immediately evokes, in my mind, the great
interpreter of politics, Hunter S. Thompson. Is this the kind of work you
speak of? He views the world from a distorted eye, and yet accomplishes
so much opinion. He takes reality and makes it fiction, but who's to say
that reality isn't really an attempt at fiction anyway? Let me know what
you think...
-t
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Eric Blanco wrote:
> Hello everyone:
> A while back someone posted
> a description of a work as "dangerous
> writing"-a great phrase and a high
> compliment, I'm sure.
>
> My questions to the list are: what
> qualities does a writers' work have to have
> in order for it to be dangerous? What was
> dangerous about the beats' writings, and
> is it enough just to upset the status quo or
> does something else have to be present?
> Are there any dangerous writers today?
> Finally, is it possible to be mainstream
> (Anne Rice? Eric Lustbader?) and still be
> dangerous?
>
> I look forward to your
> feedback, either to the list or in private.
> I hope you've all had a great week and
> are looking forward to the weekend.
>
> My best,
>
> Chimera
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:22:37 EDT
Reply-To: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Village Voice obit.
This week's issue of the Voice carried a full page obit on Burroughs
with articles by David Ulin and C. (I assume Lucien's son Caleb) Carr.
The last paragraph of Ulin's article addresses the question of
Burroughs' attitude towards death and God:
"In an interview last year, Burroughs addressed the subject of his own
death, noting that he was frightened at the prospect because 'we don't
know it. We can't.' At the same time, he took a philosophical view of
mortality. 'I believe in God,' he said, 'and always have. I don't know
how anyone could read my books and think otherwise. In the magical
universie, nothing happens unless some power or something wills it to
happen. It's as simple as that. It comes down to the Big Bang Theory.
Somebody triggered the Big Bang.'"
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:18:52 -0400
Reply-To: "Ted W. Nagy" <tnagy@PASS.WAYNE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Ted W. Nagy" <tnagy@PASS.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Last Words
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.970807200043.11613D-100000@devel.nacs.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I'm interested as well on last words. Did you read the last poem (can't
remember the title...) Ginsberg put out that was published in the New
Yorker. Very eery... The words of a man who knows that he's going to die.
I saw Ed Sanders read in Detroit and he was relating a story about
Ginsberg's last words to him. Ed stood back, choked up, and told the
audience of how he had been summoned to Italy at this time. He heard of
Ginsberg's death abroad and when he returned, heard his voice on the
answering machine. I guess Ginsberg was making phone calls on his
deathbed saying goodbye. like he was going away for just a short while,
and returning. Anyway, Ed said that he was all chipper and sincere-like
on the machine. I can't remember the way that sanders said it(among the
tears caught in his throat), but he said goodbye, and laughed and said
that he'd see him later. The words of a dead man inspire new life to us
all...
-t
On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Michael Stutz wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Neil Hennessy wrote:
>
> > Someone even wrote an essay about 10 years ago called "The Last Words of
> > William S. Burroughs", so I figure it's as valid an enquiry as any.
>
> Does anyone have a copy of this, or know where one exists? As many of you
> undoubtedly are, I'm interested in what William's parting shot was -- as
> well as Ginsberg's. I'd first heard it was "toodle-oo," but then I recall
> reading something else somewhere, so I ain't got no clue.
>
> bye,
>
> m
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:50:40 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Last Words
Comments: To: "Ted W. Nagy" <tnagy@pass.wayne.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.93.970811121330.11181B-100000@pass.wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Ted W. Nagy wrote:
> I'm interested as well on last words. Did you read the last poem (can't
> remember the title...) Ginsberg put out that was published in the New
> Yorker. Very eery... The words of a man who knows that he's going to die.
Not only that, but those last few poems were sharp as hell, Ginsberg in top
form. A good way for a poet to go out.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:56:02 -0400
Reply-To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Authorized Kerouac Bio
Comments: To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.970811093157.37708F-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> from what i understand from r.whitehead, d.brinkley in fact has been
> picked to edit 2 volumes of jack kerouac's selected journals, and NOT a
> new biography.
> yrs
> derek
>
One of the Burroughs obits I read quoted Brinkley and referred to him as
"who is writing the authorized Kerouac biography"
Maybe he'sdoing the bio and the journals?
RJW
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:18:05 EDT
Reply-To: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Organization: Brooklyn College Library
Subject: Burroughs Obit
Attached is a Burroughs obit from this week's German magazine, Der
Spiegel. (http://www.spiegel.de) I replaced the umlauted letters by
ae, oe, ue, etc. to make it readable.
Fred
NACHRUF
William S. Burroughs
1914 bis 1997
Natuerlich konnte man mit Bill Burroughs auch ueber Literatur
reden oder ueber Moebelpolitur oder Popmusik, denn er war ein
hoeflicher Mensch. Seine schleppende, monotone Stimme verriet
kultiviertes Desinteresse. Doch wenn das Gespraech auf Waffen
kam, gewann sie an Farbe.
Dann wurde klar: Nicht Doyen des amerikanischen Underground oder
Pate des Punks oder respektiertes Akademie-Mitglied, sondern
Marshall in Dodge City - das waere wohl seine Lieblingsrolle
gewesen. Das oder der Schurke am anderen Strassenende. Die
Grenzen zwischen Gut und Boese haben ihn ohnehin nie sonderlich
interessiert. Geistesgegenwart, darauf kam es ihm an.
William S. Burroughs wusste die eigenen Qualitaeten illusionslos
einzuschaetzen. "Mit Doc Holliday koennte ich es noch allemal
aufnehmen", sagte er bei einer Probeschiesserei auf seiner Ranch
in Kansas.
Bill Burroughs, die aeusserste Avantgarde, die sich die
amerikanische Literatur in diesem Jahrhundert leistete, war
gleichzeitig so amerikanisch wie Cornflakes. Er war Mitglied der
erzreaktionaeren "National Rifle Association" und fuehlte sich
wohl unter den Rednecks in Kansas, wo er vorvergangene Woche
83jaehrig an Herzversagen starb.
Er kannte die Mythen und Legenden um den O. K. Corral in- und
auswendig, und bevor er in die Tempel und Seminarraeume der
Literaturwissenschaftler einzog, bewohnte er den Kosmos der
Groschenhefte. Er war der Harvard-Zoegling mit Leidenschaft fuer
das Triviale. Der Kronprinz einer Industriellenfamilie, der in
den Fixerszenen von New Orleans, London und Tanger zu Hause war.
Er war ein merkwuerdig zugeknoepfter Reisender mit der Vorliebe
fuer Schmutz und Schund aller Art. Zudem war er schwul. Im Grunde
war Burroughs der Alptraum der amerikanischen Gesellschaft - weil
er aus ihrer innersten Mitte stammte.
In den Beatnik-Zirkeln um Ginsberg und Kerouac, die er Mitte der
vierziger Jahre kennenlernte, wirkte er wie ein Fremder. Es gibt
selbst in diesen fruehen Jahren kaum ein Foto, auf dem er
laechelt - und so blieb sein Gesicht eine unerschuetterliche
Buster-Keaton-Miene zum boesen Spiel des Jahrhunderts. Er
heiratete zweimal. Die erste Frau war eine deutsche Juedin, der
er mit der Ehe die Einwanderung ermoeglichte. Die zweite Frau
erschoss er waehrend einer drogenberauschten Party. Restlos
konnte nie geklaert werden, ob der Unfall tatsaechlich ein Unfall
war. Burroughs gab kurz nach der Tat ein Gestaendnis ab, das er
spaeter widerrief.
Der Skandal jedoch verlieh ihm jenen duesteren Glanz, der ihn
spaeter zur schwarzromantischen Pop-Ikone machte: Er war der
schriftstellernde Outlaw, der Revolverheld mit der
Schreibmaschine, der sich um die Gesetze nicht sonderlich
kuemmerte, weder um die des Lebens noch um die der Literatur.
Schon als Junge hatte Burroughs von einer literarischen Karriere
aus absolut ausserliterarischen Gruenden getraeumt. Er wollte
schreiben, "weil Schriftsteller reich und beruehmt waren, in
Singapur und Rangun herumhingen, gelbe Seidenanzuege trugen und
Opium rauchten oder Haschisch in den Vierteln der Einheimischen
von Tanger und dabei eine zahme Gazelle streichelten".
Er hat es gehabt, das Rauschgift und die Gazellen und spaeter den
Ruhm und den Reichtum, doch es war ein langer Weg dahin, und zu
den erstaunlichsten Leistungen Burroughs' gehoert wohl seine
schiere Langlebigkeit. Jahrzehntelang hing er an der Nadel, er
stieg aus und wieder ein und wieder aus und stieg um auf andere
Drogen und strapazierte seinen Koerper bis an die Grenze. Doch
als er starb, hatte er die meisten seiner Weggefaehrten
ueberlebt, Ginsberg und Neal Cassady und Timothy Leary und
Kerouac sowieso.
Sein Debuet-Roman "Junkie" erschien 1953 als billiges Paperback,
ein Hoellenbuch ueber die Logistik der Drogenbeschaffung, den
Horror der kalten Entzuege, wohl sein lesbarstes Buch. Beruehmt
wurde er jedoch durch die Phantasmagorien aus "Naked Lunch"
(1959), diesem obszoenen, halluzinogenen Groschenroman um Dr.
"Fingers" Schafer, "Lobotomy Kid" und William Lee, der zugleich
eine ueberbordende Gesellschaftssatire ist.
Ueber die Erfindung der darin zum ersten Male angewandten
beruehmten Cut-up-Methode sind verschiedene Versionen im Umlauf,
und eine davon, nicht die unwahrscheinlichste, ist banal. Im
Drogendaemmer, inmitten zerfledderter Manuskriptseiten, soll er
in einem Hotelzimmer auf seine Fuesse gestarrt haben, als
Ginsberg ihn aufstoeberte und die Texte wahllos zusammenstapelte.
Spaeter fand Burroughs die Zufallsreihung hoechst interessant.
Daraufhin zerschnitt er die Seiten und puzzelte sie neu zusammen.
"Naked Lunch" wurde wegen seiner pornographischen Passagen zum
Skandalerfolg und wegen seiner Neologismen und
Hieronymus-Bosch-Visionen zum Steinbruch fuer Popgruppen, die aus
ihm und den Folgeromanen ihre Namen entliehen, "Steely Dan" oder
"Soft Machine", und andere Gruppen nannten ihre Musik "Heavy
Metal".
Doch Burroughs interessierte sich kaum fuer das ganze
Rocktheater. Er war kein Weltverbesserer wie Ginsberg, kein
dionysischer Schwaermer wie Kerouac. Tief im Innersten hielt er
die Beatnik-Pose und das nachfolgende Pop-Getue wohl fuer
Kinderkram.
Seine letzten Jahre lebte er diszipliniert. Er stand frueh auf,
fuetterte die Katzen, schrieb. Den ersten Wodka genehmigte er
sich nie vor vier Uhr nachmittags. Ab und zu besuchte er seinen
alten Waffenbruder Fred, um zu schiessen.
Er war der Deputy-Marshall, und er hat sich lang gehalten, bis es
ihn endlich doch noch erwischte.
DER SPIEGEL 33/1997
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 20:45:59 +0200
Reply-To: paul caspers <caspers@WORLDONLINE.NL>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: paul caspers <caspers@WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: kerouac letters
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello you,
does anyone know if another volume of kerouac's letters will be published ??
also, was -my education- wsb' last book or not ??
3) how many pages does wsb' penguin paperback edition of the selected
letters run ??
it's hard to get in holland...
please reply personally also, since i'm off the beat list !!
thanks,
p a u l
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:49:15 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Comments: To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
In-Reply-To: <33EE8B80.2818@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:
> the comments on the service thing for william was
> the last words written in his diary on the 1st.
i take it his diary was where the "he wrote most every day" work all went
into, where most of his recent writings (past several years? decade? more?)
went. i may be asking a little early but has anyone heard if this will be
published any time soon?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:09:53 -0500
Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Comments: To: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Michael Stutz wrote:
>
> On Sun, 10 Aug 1997, Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> > the comments on the service thing for william was
> > the last words written in his diary on the 1st.
>
> i take it his diary was where the "he wrote most every day" work all went
> into, where most of his recent writings (past several years? decade? more?)
> went. i may be asking a little early but has anyone heard if this will be
> published any time soon?
I have no idea,
p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:17:38 -0400
Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby
Subject: Re: Authorized Kerouac Bio
Comments: To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> from what i understand from r.whitehead, d.brinkley in fact has been
> picked to edit 2 volumes of jack kerouac's selected journals, and NOT
> a
> new biography.
> yrs
> derek
I'll take that. In fact it might even be a better project than another
biography.
> <snip>
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:25:11 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Black Rider (The Freeshooter)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I guess Burroughs wrote a musical called the Black Rider. I'm wondering
what Jolson numbers are in it.
I saw this article in the South China Morning Post
________
Friday August 8 1997
Arts
The rider in the storm
VICTORIA FINLAY
When William Burroughs died earlier this week at
the age of 83, the question many people asked was
not why he died, but why he lived so long.
Burroughs, born in St Louis in 1914, was a
non-conformist who said "yes" to drugs, and was
known for a reckless, dangerous anarchism that
was as much a part of his life as of his writing.
Perhaps his most publicised, and certainly his most
tragic, stunt, was his fatal attempt to re-enact the
legend of William Tell at a party above a bar in
Mexico City in 1951. The writer, drunk, pulled out
a gun and a glass. Placing the latter on the head of
his wife, Joan, he asked fellow partiers to imagine it
was an apple, and fired. He missed the glass and
killed Joan.
The Mexican police did not press charges. It was
rumoured money was paid.
Four decades on, with the collaboration of director
Robert Wilson and singer-composer Tom Waits,
Burroughs wrote a musical.
It was based partly on Weber's Der Freischutz
("the free shooter") about a man who made a pact
with the devil to become the marksman his girlfriend
dreamed of. But it was based mainly on his own
experience above that Mexican bar.
The Black Rider will be one of the highlights of the
Hong Kong Arts Festival next February.
This is not, we can be sure, a musical after the
tradition of Andrew Lloyd Webber and Cameron
Mackintosh. And it is certainly not of the pastel
school of The Sound of Music which played to
mixed reactions at the Academy for Performing
Arts this summer.
The Black Rider, with its illuminated rifle that floats
and flies, its avant-garde lighting effects (a Wilson
trademark), and its black humour, has instead been
given many labels, including "hallucinatory", "almost
unclassifiable" and "a masterpiece".
Plenty of bloody cadavers, black boxes, and
rousing Al Jolson numbers at the tragic turns of the
plot.
While, with Los Angeles Opera's Salome the Arts
Festival has gone for a more classical operatic
choice next year, they can already be commended
for continuing in a series of daring musical theatre
that began in 1996 with Robert Lepage's
Bluebeard's Castle, and continued this year with
Tan Dun's Marco Polo.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:04:17 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: We've had the builders in...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Here's another forward from Gerald Houghton. Seems to be an intelligent
man with lots in the know department. Anybody know about the U2 video and
Burroughs??
Douglas
<< start of forwarded material >>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:22:11 +0100
To: runner <babu@electriciti.com>
From: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk (Gerald Houghton)
Subject: We've had the builders in...
I shall look around there and see what I shall see. It's irritating the way
that the death is annouced and then...nothing. It's like you don't get the
sense of closure to the story. Only when the great Derek Jarman died did we
get the end we needed.
One of the things that irritated me most in the obits for WSB was the
singular lack of any acknowledgement that his work was at all FUNNY. Lots of
reverence about cut-up techniques (often mis-credited, as per usual) and the
rest, but nothing about how funny a book like 'Naked Lunch' is, or something
like 'Just Say No To Drug Hysteria'. His contributions to spoken word were
equally ignored. You can't say it all maybe, but...
Here's a question - it was heavily reported that WSB appeared in the latest
U2 video. I saw a picture of him on the set with them in a magazine. But
every time the videos on TV it's cut-off before, I assume, he appears. Any
idea if he really is in there?
>
>>
>>
>> Gerald Houghton
>> e-mail: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk
>> The Edge magazine homepage:
>> http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~houghtong/edge1.htm
<< end of forwarded material >>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:08:20 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: I'm not paranoid but...
Comments: cc: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Another snip of a message from Gerald Houghton of the JG Ballard list.
Sorry to have inundated you folx with messages from other lists, but I find
it fascinating to hear the round-all concerning WSB. I'd be interested in
hearing/reading about the Ralph Steadman collaboration too. Anybody have
any news?
Douglas
<< start of forwarded material >>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 23:12:14 +0100
To: runner <babu@electriciti.com>
From: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk (Gerald Houghton)
Subject: I'm not paranoid but...
<snip>
WSB's death came as a real shock last Sunday dinnertime when it was annouced
on Radio 4 over here. One of those deaths you just never expected - like
when film-maker K. Kieslowski died last year.
They spoke to artist Ralph Steadman about his collaboration with WSB.
Steadman also wrote an excellent piece in 'The Guardian' this past week
about meeting/working with Burroughs.
There have also been two cartoons about his death too. One in - yup, 'The
Guardian' - about arresting suspected drug addicts for waring suits and a
trilby. And another about him being buried, um, up the butt of a giant
centipede...
I collected all the obits for the man I could find - odd how they
contridicted each other over Joan's death and how not one mentioned the book
of letters published the other year that I (and I believe author Will Self)
think of as his true masterpiece. All the obits were at least sympathetic
except for 'The Times' which seemed to grudgingly admit he merited coverage
but thought he was essentially crap. Noticeably no one put their name to the
piece. Go figure.
Gerald Houghton
e-mail: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk
The Edge magazine homepage:
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~houghtong/edge1.htm
<< end of forwarded material >>
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:29:11 -0700
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Harry Anslinger Rides Again
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Beat-L folks.
This is not directly related to Beat topics, but those of you who have
been arguing drug and freedom of chemical choice issues may want to
watch the way in which Att. Gen. Reno and the Clinton troops are doing
their best imitation of the great marijuana-phobe Harry Anslinger with
regard to GHB. This substance, which is present in every cell of your
body, and which used to be sold in health food stores in the US and is
still available over the counter in most of Europe is being demonized as
a "date rape" drug and great pressure is being exerted to schedule it as
a Class 1 or Class 2 substance. Since the FDA could not win in court
they have turned the battle to the media and state legislatures. The
great "date rape" drug has historically been booze. But the drug
haters and the drug companies have a terrible problem with any compound
that some people find fun, which tends to relax a person and is helpful
for inducing sleep. Legal sanctions help keep law enforcement
entertained and the jails full.
For more info those interested might check this site from the Cognitive
Enhancement Research Institute.
J. Stauffer
http://www.ceri.com/feature.htm
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:16:40 -0700
Reply-To: mike@buchenroth.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM>
Organization: Buchenroth Publishing Company
Subject: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
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Last Saturday morning (Friday night) I read an article / bio / slam /
insulting and frightening propaganda bullshit narrowly filtered opinion
in the "Wall Street Journal" about Burroughs and the Beats, etc.
***
This Roger Kimball guy has eaten Fruity Pebbles everyday of his life
since his 4th birthday when his great grandmother, A. Puritan, gave him
his first box as a gift. He measures precisely 1/2 cup of 2% each day.
And all this time, he has used the same licked-worn spoon too. He likes
to lick the tarnish from that clad silver plated zink, lead, and steel
alloy spoon. Ole Roger seems just a few licks short of bacon and eggs.
Roger so loves his Fruity Pebbles...
-Mike
***
This piece appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Friday August 8, 1997 .
. .
Read it and weep!
The Dark Ages Lurk, yet!
The Death of Decency
By ROGER KIMBALL
It has been a bad year for famous drugabusing literary charlatans. In
April, the Beat poet Allen Ginsberg-author of "Howl" (1956) and
innumerable other paeans to pharmacological and sexual excess-died of
liver cancer at the age of 70. On Aug. 2, the Beat novelist William S.
Burroughs succumbed to a heart attack at the age of 83. Considering the
way they abused themselves - especially Burroughs, who was addicted to
heroin for some 15 years-it is hard not to admire their robust
constitutions.
It is even harder, though, to admire anything else about the life or
work of either. Both specialized in pretentious, proselytizing
pornography: Ginsberg of an incense-burning, pseudo-Whitmanesque sort,
Burroughs of a much grittier, sadomasochistic variety. There are few
poems by Ginsberg that could be quoted whole in this newspaper; I doubt
whether any page of "Naked Lunch," Burroughs's celebrated 1959 fantasy
about a violent, drugridden sexual underworld, could be. A generous
person might be tempted to describe the accumulated literary value of
both writers as null. But that would be grossly unfair to nullity. The
poet Edith Sitwell came closer to the truth when she described "Naked
Lunch" as "psychopathological filth."
How, then, can we explain the extent to which Ginsberg and Burroughs
have been lionized by the media and the academic literary establishment?
Anyone who read the obituaries these men received-especially Ginsberg,
who got lavish, front-page treatment almost everywhere-might be tricked
into thinking that they were important literary figures. In the early
1990s, Stanford University paid $1 million for Ginsberg's papers. His
works are published by prestigious houses and are studied in classrooms
across the country. Ditto for Burroughs. The word "genius" is routinely
applied to both. So is "transgressive"--a term that, tellingly, has
emerged as a favorite word of praise among addicts of the "cutting
edge."
I agree that Ginsberg and Burroughs were "transgressive." But is that a
good thing? After all, Saddam Hussein is "transgressire" too. The
obituary of Burroroughs in The New York Times informed readers that "he
spent years experimenting with drugs as well as with sex, which he
engaged in with men, women, and children." Note the word
"experimenting," as if Burroughs were engaged in some sort of of
scientific inquiry rather than straight-foraward abuse of hard drugs and
sordid sexual debauchery.
Burroughs committed his most clearly transgressive act in Mexico in
1951. Although predominantly homosexual, he had married and fathered a
son. Drunk at a party, he took out a handgun and announced to his wife
that it was time for their William Tell act. When he tried to shoot a
glass off her head, he missed and killed her. As one obituary put it,
"the circumstances of the killing were never fully investigated, and
Burroughs fled Mexico City for South America rather than stand trial."
Burroughs is often praised for his "humor." But as far as I can tell,
there is only one genuinely funny sentence in "Naked Lunch," and its
humor is inadvertent. "Certain passages in the book that have been
called pornographic," Burroughs wrote in a preface, "were written as a
tract against Capital Punishment in the manner of Jonathan Swift's
'Modest Proposal.'"
Burroughs wasn't alone in invoking the author of "Gulliver's Travels."
Burroughs's fellow Beat writer Jack Kerouac wrote that his friend was
"the greatest satirical writer since Jonathan Swift." In 1963, the
critic and novelist Mary McCarthy solemnly said there were "many points
of comparison" between the two, and concluded that, "like a classical
satirist, Burroughs is dead serious--a reformer."
But McCarthy was wrong. Burroughs was not a reformer. Unlike Swift, he
had no ideal to oppose to the degradation his books depicted. On William
Burroughs the contrary, he was a cynical opportunist who realized that
calling his work "satire" could help exempt it from legal action. An
obituary in The Village Voice described Burroughs as "utterly paranoid
and utterly moral." That is exactly half right.
It is significant that the careers of both Ginsberg and Burroughs began
with an obscenity trial, Ginsberg with "'Howl" in 1957, Burroughs with
"Naked Lunch" in 1962. Ira Silverberg, a publicist for Burroughs, is
quoted as saying that "William Burroughs opened the door for supporters
of freedom of expression." In fact, Burroughs helped open the door on
the public acceptance and academic adulation of violent, dehumanizing
pornography as a protected form of free speech.
As Rochelle Gurstein pointed out in "The Repeal of Reticence," her
astute book about free speech and obscenity, "it is a sign of our time
that this ready-made plea for freedom of choice, and the dismissal of
standards as a form of cultural imperialism, is automatically offered
not only on behalf of commercial entertainment but also for obscene art
and pornography."
As Ms. Gurstein shows, it was not until the 1950s that the question of
obscenity was cast as a First Amendment issue. Until then, free speech
had been explicitly excluded by the courts as a defense for trafficking
in obscene materials. The problem was not defining obscenity--about
which there was wide agreement--but in assessing the degree of public
harm the circulation of certain materials might be expected to cause.
"Obscenity was successfully regulated," she notes, "because there was
broad consensus about indecency, rooted in the old standards of the
reticent sensibility."
That consensus has long since dissolved, along with the moral
sensibility that supported it. In this sense, Allen Ginsberg, William
Burroughs. and the rest of the Beats really do mark an important moment
in American culture, not as one of its achievements, but as a grievous
example of its degeneration. The Village Voice observed that, when it
came to appreciating his nihilism, "the culture had finally caught up
with" Burroughs. Sadly, that couldn't be more accurate.
Mr. Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion.
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
Peter R. Kann Kenneth L. Burenga
Chairman & Publisher President
Paul E. Steiger Robert L. Bartley
Managing Editor Editor
Byron E. Calame Daniel Hemfinger
Daniel Hertzberg Deputy Editor,
Deputy Managing Editors Editorial Page
Vice Presidents
Danforth W. Austin General Manager
Paul C. Atkinson AdVertising
William E. Casey Jr. Circulation
Michael F. Sheehan Production
Charles F. Russell Technology
F, Thomas Kull Jr. Operations
Published since 1889 by
DOWJONES & COMPANY
Peter R. Kann, Chairman & Chief Executive Officer; Kenneth L. Burenga,
President & Chief Operating
Officer; CEO, Dew Jones Markets.
Senior Vice Presidents: James H. Oftaway Jr.,
Chairman, Ottaway Newspapers, President,
Magazines; Peter G. Skinner, General Counsel,
President, Television; Carl M. Valenti, Teetmology &
Affiliates, President/Publisher, Newswires.
Vice Presidents/Operating Groups: Karen Elliott House, President,
International; Dorothea Cocoeli Palshe, President, Interactive
Publishing.
Vice Presidents: Kevin J. Roehe, Chief Financial Officer; Julian B.
Childs, Markets; Paul J. Ingrassia, Richard J. Levino, Newswires; James
A. Scaduto, Employee Relations; David E. Moran, Law.
EDITORIAL AND CORPORATE HEADQUARTEES: 200 Liberty
Street, New York, N.Y. 10281. Telephone (212) 416-2000.
SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES: Call 1-800-JOURNAL, or see
--------------69E1B112370
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Asshole.txt"
This piece appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Friday August 8, 1997 . . .
Read it and weep!
The Dark Ages Lurk, yet!
The Death of Decency
By ROGER KIMBALL
It has been a bad year for famous drugabusing literary charlatans. In April, the
Beat poet Allen Ginsberg-author of "Howl" (1956) and innumerable other paeans
to pharmacological and sexual excess-died of liver cancer at the age of 70. On
Aug. 2, the Beat novelist William S. Burroughs succumbed to a heart attack at
the age of 83. Considering the way they abused themselves - especially
Burroughs, who was addicted to heroin for some 15 years-it is hard not to
admire their robust constitutions.
It is even harder, though, to admire anything else about the life or work of
either. Both specialized in pretentious, proselytizing pornography: Ginsberg of
an incense-burning, pseudo-Whitmanesque sort, Burroughs of a much grittier,
sadomasochistic variety. There are few poems by Ginsberg that could be quoted
whole in this newspaper; I doubt whether any page of "Naked Lunch," Burroughs's
celebrated 1959 fantasy about a violent, drugridden sexual underworld, could
be. A generous person might be tempted to describe the accumulated literary
value of both writers as null. But that would be grossly unfair to nullity. The
poet Edith Sitwell came closer to the truth when she described "Naked Lunch" as
"psychopathological filth."
How, then, can we explain the extent to which Ginsberg and Burroughs have been
lionized by the media and the academic literary establishment? Anyone who read
the obituaries these men received-especially Ginsberg, who got lavish,
front-page treatment almost everywhere-might be tricked into thinking that they
were important literary figures. In the early 1990s, Stanford University paid
$1 million for Ginsberg's papers. His works are published by prestigious houses
and are studied in classrooms across the country. Ditto for Burroughs. The word
"genius" is routinely applied to both. So is "transgressive"--a term that,
tellingly, has emerged as a favorite word of praise among addicts of the
"cutting edge."
I agree that Ginsberg and Burroughs were "transgressive." But is that a good
thing? After all, Saddam Hussein is "transgressire" too. The obituary of
Burroroughs in The New York Times informed readers that "he spent years
experimenting with drugs as well as with sex, which he engaged in with men,
women, and children." Note the word "experimenting," as if Burroughs were
engaged in some sort of of scientific inquiry rather than straight-foraward
abuse of hard drugs and sordid sexual debauchery.
Burroughs committed his most clearly transgressive act in Mexico in 1951.
Although predominantly homosexual, he had married and fathered a son. Drunk at
a party, he took out a handgun and announced to his wife that it was time for
their William Tell act. When he tried to shoot a glass off her head, he missed
and killed her. As one obituary put it, "the circumstances of the killing were
never fully investigated, and Burroughs fled Mexico City for South America
rather than stand trial."
Burroughs is often praised for his "humor." But as far as I can tell, there is
only one genuinely funny sentence in "Naked Lunch," and its humor is
inadvertent. "Certain passages in the book that have been called pornographic,"
Burroughs wrote in a preface, "were written as a tract against Capital
Punishment in the manner of Jonathan Swift's 'Modest Proposal.'"
Burroughs wasn't alone in invoking the author of "Gulliver's Travels."
Burroughs's fellow Beat writer Jack Kerouac wrote that his friend was "the
greatest satirical writer since Jonathan Swift." In 1963, the critic and
novelist Mary McCarthy solemnly said there were "many points of comparison"
between the two, and concluded that, "like a classical satirist, Burroughs is
dead serious--a reformer."
But McCarthy was wrong. Burroughs was not a reformer. Unlike Swift, he had no
ideal to oppose to the degradation his books depicted. On William Burroughs the
contrary, he was a cynical opportunist who realized that calling his work
"satire" could help exempt it from legal action. An obituary in The Village
Voice described Burroughs as "utterly paranoid and utterly moral." That is
exactly half right.
It is significant that the careers of both Ginsberg and Burroughs began with an
obscenity trial, Ginsberg with "'Howl" in 1957, Burroughs with "Naked Lunch" in
1962. Ira Silverberg, a publicist for Burroughs, is quoted as saying that
"William Burroughs opened the door for supporters of freedom of expression." In
fact, Burroughs helped open the door on the public acceptance and academic
adulation of violent, dehumanizing pornography as a protected form of free
speech.
As Rochelle Gurstein pointed out in "The Repeal of Reticence," her astute book
about free speech and obscenity, "it is a sign of our time that this ready-made
plea for freedom of choice, and the dismissal of standards as a form of
cultural imperialism, is automatically offered not only on behalf of commercial
entertainment but also for obscene art and pornography."
As Ms. Gurstein shows, it was not until the 1950s that the question of
obscenity was cast as a First Amendment issue. Until then, free speech had been
explicitly excluded by the courts as a defense for trafficking in obscene
materials. The problem was not defining obscenity--about which there was wide
agreement--but in assessing the degree of public harm the circulation of
certain materials might be expected to cause. "Obscenity was successfully
regulated," she notes, "because there was broad consensus about indecency,
rooted in the old standards of the reticent sensibility."
That consensus has long since dissolved, along with the moral sensibility that
supported it. In this sense, Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs. and the rest of
the Beats really do mark an important moment in American culture, not as one of
its achievements, but as a grievous example of its degeneration. The Village
Voice observed that, when it came to appreciating his nihilism, "the culture
had finally caught up with" Burroughs. Sadly, that couldn't be more accurate.
Mr. Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion.
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
Peter R. Kann Kenneth L. Burenga
Chairman & Publisher President
Paul E. Steiger Robert L. Bartley
Managing Editor Editor
Byron E. Calame Daniel Hemfinger
Daniel Hertzberg Deputy Editor,
Deputy Managing Editors Editorial Page
Vice Presidents
Danforth W. Austin General Manager
Paul C. Atkinson AdVertising
William E. Casey Jr. Circulation
Michael F. Sheehan Production
Charles F. Russell Technology
F, Thomas Kull Jr. Operations
Published since 1889 by
DOWJONES & COMPANY
Peter R. Kann, Chairman & Chief Executive Officer; Kenneth L. Burenga, President
& Chief Operating
Officer; CEO, Dew Jones Markets.
Senior Vice Presidents: James H. Oftaway Jr.,
Chairman, Ottaway Newspapers, President,
Magazines; Peter G. Skinner, General Counsel,
President, Television; Carl M. Valenti, Teetmology &
Affiliates, President/Publisher, Newswires.
Vice Presidents/Operating Groups: Karen Elliott House, President, International;
Dorothea Cocoeli Palshe, President, Interactive Publishing.
Vice Presidents: Kevin J. Roehe, Chief Financial Officer; Julian B. Childs,
Markets; Paul J. Ingrassia, Richard J. Levino, Newswires; James A. Scaduto,
Employee Relations; David E. Moran, Law.
EDITORIAL AND CORPORATE HEADQUARTEES: 200 Liberty
Street, New York, N.Y. 10281. Telephone (212) 416-2000.
SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES: Call 1-800-JOURNAL, or see
--------------69E1B112370--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 06:00:57 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97
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>Return-Path: <bofus@fcom.com>
>Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 06:34:48 -0800
>From: bofus? <bofus@fcom.com>
>To: bofus@fcom.com
>Subject: q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97
>
>William Burroughs I-View (w/Lee Ranaldo)
>
>9 April 1997
>
>TAPE TRANSCRIPTION
>
>
>
>Loud dial tone and faint "Hello, hello?"
>
>Silence
>
>Touch tone phone tones
>
>ringing 5 or 6 times
>
>WSB: eh, Hello?
>
>LR: Is this William?
>
>WSB: Yeh.
>
>LR: Hi William, this is Lee Ranaldo in New York City.
>
>WSB: Yeah.
>
>LR: How are ya?
>
>WSB: Oh okay.
>
>LR: Well you sound pretty good.
>
>WSB: Uh-huh (TECHNICAL GLITCH-garbled)
>
>LR: Good. (static) Okay, I hope that my recording equipment is all in
>good form here
>
>LR: So I wanted to talk to you, for just a few minutes this afternoon,
>about Morocco, if you would
>
>WSB: Just a moment, I gotta get my drink
>
>LR: Okay. 25 sec silence
>
>LR: Hello? loud buzzing
>
>LR: Hello? rattling
>
>WSB: OK.
>
>LR: Okay, first off, William, I'd like to say that I was very sad to
>hear about Allen I know you guys have been friends for the longest time
>
>WSB: Yes. Yes, well he knew, he knew it. He faced it.
>
>LR: It seems like he faced it in a very good way, actually.
>
>WSB: Yep, he told me "I thought I'd be terrified but I'm not at all"
>
>LR: He did?
>
>WSB: Yes "I'm exhillerated!"
>
>LR: Well, I suppose if anyone had the right, uh, frame about them to go
>out that way, it was probably him. I was hoping to get one more visit in
>with him before he uh, he went, uh he passed on, but that was not meant
>to be, I'm sure a lot of people felt the same.
>
>WSB: mumbles
>
>LR: When was the last time you saw him?
>
>WSB: Los Angeles. At my show there.
>
>LR: I wanted to talk to you about Morocco a little bit.
>
>WSB: Yeh.
>
>LR: I've recently been to the country, a few times, and done some
>exploring around, and I know you spent quite a bit of time in Tanger. I
>just wanted to pick yr brain about that a little bit. You went to Tanger
>for the first time in 1953, 1954?
>
>WSB: Nineteen Fifty four, I believe.
>
>LR: Yeah. What what how did you end up in Morocco? What was it about
>the place that drew you there? I mean, today there are a lot of
>different romantic associations with the coast of North Africa
>
>WSB: There were a lot more then than there are now, I can tell you
>that.
>
>LR: Really?
>
>WSB: Well, you'll notice more subdivisions now as it's modernized and
>is no longer cheap
>
>LR: Right. But we have the stories of yr time there, and Paul Bowles'
>time there, and such things as Lawrence of Arabia, and it's built up in
>a very romantic way
>
>WSB: In other words for one thing, it was very cheap.
>
>LR: It was very cheap?
>
>WSB: Yeah, man, I lived like a king for $200 a month.
>
>LR: Really?
>
>WSB: Yeh.
>
>LR: Did it have the same sort of appeal, then, that Berlin had in the
>70's, of being a sort of international zone, where anything goes?
>
>WSB: Pretty much so. It was an anything goes place, and that's another
>plus.
>
>LR: Yeah. And that was pretty available knowledge, when you went there?
>
>WSB: Oh sure.
>
>LR: Had you known Paul Bowles, or known about him, before you went
>there?
>
>WSB: I'd read his books.
>
>LR: You did?
>
>WSB: Yes. I didn't know him.
>
>LR: Did you meet him fairly quickly after you were there?
>
>WSB: Mmm, I'd been there for some time, I'd met him very slightly. Then
>later we became quite good friends but that was later, some years later.
>
>LR: Right. Did you pretty much exist within an expatriate community
>there, or did you have a lot of contact with the local people? Was is
>easy to have contact?
>
>WSB: The local people umm, I don't speak a fuckin' word of Arabic, but
>I speak a little Spanish y'know, they all spoke Spanish in the Northern
>Zone.
>
>LR: Yeah.
>
>WSB: My relations were mostly with the Spanish. Spanish boys. And, of
>course, otherwise in the expatriate side.
>
>LR: Right, but you didn't frequent the Barbara Hutton crowd?
>
>WSB: Nooo.
>
>LR: Did you do much travelling around Morocco while you were there, or
>did you pretty much just stick in Tanger?
>
>WSB: I'm ashamed to say, not much. I went to Fes, I went to Marrakech,
>and passed through Casablance. Some of the places there I forget the
>names of the coastal towns and I've been to Jajouka!
>
>LR: Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about that I'm friendly with Bachir
>Attar, and the last time we were there I went to Jajouka as well
>
>WSB: Oh did ya?
>
>LR: I saw your inscriptions in his big scrapbook, and hear some
>stories
>
>WSB: Yeah.
>
>LR: What was your impression of that place? How did you end up there?
>Was it through Brion Gysin and the 1001 Nights?
>
>WSB: More or less, yes.
>
>LR: What did you make of that place? What did you make of the music?
>
>WSB: Great, great. Love it. Magic It really has a magical quality that
>you can't find anymore, anywhere. It's dying our everywhere, that
>quality
>
>LR: It seems to be still there when they play (today), I don't know if
>you've heard them recently
>
>WSB: Not recently, but I've hear the recordings, some of the
>recordings. Ornette Colemanmade some, you know. I was there when he made
>those.
>
>LR: Excuse me?
>
>WSB: I was there.
>
>LR: You were there when he made those (Dancing in Your Head)
>recordings?
>
>WSB: That's right.
>
>LR: Oh, gee, wasn't that in the 70's?
>
>WSB: Yeah, it was, '72, I think.
>
>LR: When was the last time you were back in Morocco?
>
>WSB: When in the hell was it? I went there with the last time I went
>with Jeremy Thomas and David Cronenberg, apropos of possibly getting
>some shots, y'know
>
>LR: Oh, for the movie (Naked Lunch)
>
>WSB: Yeah, for the sets.
>
>LR: Yeah.
>
>WSB: Well, we just were there a couple of days.
>
>LR: Was it anything like you remembered? Had it changed incredibly?
>
>WSB: Not incredibly but considerably. There's been a lot of building
>up, a lot of sort of sub-divisions, it's gotten more westernized there
>used to be a lot of good restaurants there, now there's only one, and
>that's in the Hotel Minza.
>
>LR: Right.
>
>WSB: These people I was with were saying "Oh show me to a little place
>in the native quarter where the food is good " and I said: There aren't
>no such places! Right here in your best food in Morocco, or in Tanger
>anyway, right in the Hotel Minza. Well, they went out and they ate in an
>awful, greasy Spanish restaurant. After that they believed me!
>
>LR: (laughs)They had to find out the hard way
>
>LR: What about the 1001 Nights? Were the Jajouka musicians playing in
>there?
>
>WSB: Well, various musicians. They had dancing boys in there, too.
>
>LR: Yeah?
>
>WSB: Yes Oh, but I didn't know Brion too well I was only there a couple
>of times.
>
>LR: Oh really.
>
>WSB: I didn't know him then.
>
>LR: You became friendly with him in Paris, later?
>
>WSB: That's right.
>
>LR: The place where you spent a lot of your time there (in Tanger), the
>Muneria?
>
>WSB: The Hotel Mouneria, yes.
>
>LR: Was it a hotel or a boarding house?
>
>WSB: It was a hotel.
>
>LR: That's where you wrote a lot of the routines that became Naked
>Lunch?
>
>WSB: Quite a few of them, yes.
>
>LR: And is that where Kerouac, and Ginsberg, those guys came to visit
>you? Where you living there at that time?
>
>WSB: I was living there at that time, yes. The didn't there wasn't a
>place in the Mouneria, but they found various cheap places around very
>near there.
>
>LR: I heard Kerouac had nightmares from typing up your stuff at that
>time
>
>WSB: (pauses) Well, he said
>
>LR: Was he the first one to actually sit down and type a buch of that
>stuff up?
>
>WSB: No, he was by no means the first. Alan Ansen did a lot of typing,
>and of course Allen Ginsberg. I don't know who was first but it wasn't
>Jack.
>
>LR: Those guys came and went pretty quickly, compared to your time in
>Morocco I guess they weren't as enamoured of the place
>
>WSB: Well they were settled somewhere else. Now for example, Jack
>didn't like any place outside of America he hated Tanger.
>
>LR: I wonder why?
>
>WSB: He hated Paris because they couldn't understand is French.
>
>LR: His French ws a dialect
>
>WSB: Those French Canadians got themselves into a language ghetto.
>Evnet he French people don't speak their language. Anyway, he'd been to
>Mexico quite a lot, more than many other places.
>
>LR: He liked it there
>
>WSB: Fairly well.
>
>LR: But he didn't like it very much in Tanger?
>
>WSB: No no, not at all.
>
>LR: I'd like to hear your impressions of the kif smoking there, and the
>majoun
>
>WSB: Sure. Well, the kif smoking was, y'know, anywhere and everywhere.
>There were no laws
>
>LR: They sort of smoke it the way people have a drink here, don't they?
>
>WSB: Well, not exactly the same way. In the first place it's pretty
>much confined to men, thought i suppose the women get to smoke on their
>own. but anyway, of course majoun is just a cany mad from kif the kif,
>you see, is mixed with tobacco
>
>LR: Right.
>
>WSB: I can't smoke it.
>
>LR: Nope.
>
>WSB: So I'd always get those boys with the tobacco, I'd tell 'em: "I
>don't want the tobacco in it". So I rolled my own, and made my own
>majoun. It's just a candy, it's pretty much like a Christmas Pudding any
>sort of candy is good, works, fudge or whatever.
>
>LR: And how did you find it? Was it a high that was pretty pleasing?
>
>WSB: Very very very much. It was stronger than pot.
>
>LR: Were you smoking a lot of that, or taking a lot of that, when you
>were writing some of the routines?
>
>WSB: Yeah, sure. It helped me alot.
>
>LR: Was Tanger a violent place then?
>
>WSB: It was never a violent place that I know of.
>
>LR: No?
>
>WSB: Never good god I walked around in Tanger at all hours of the day
>and night, never any trouble.
>
>LR: Really?
>
>WSB: Yeah, there's always stuff about, the idea that you go into the
>native quartier you immediately get stabbed laughs it's nonsense!
>
>LR: Well, people do bring back those stories now and again
>
>WSB: Well, occasionally it happens, but it is much less dangerous that
>certain areas of New York my God!
>
>LR: That's exactly how I likened it, when I was there if you can walk
>down the streets of New York you're in pretty good stead.
>
>WSB: Yeah, that's right, you're much better in Tanger than in New York.
>
>LR: There was a description, In Barry Miles book, wehre he said that
>when you got there you felt very lonely and cut off, being sort of
>isolated in this corner of North Africa
>
>WSB: It wasn't the corner of North Africa, it was the fact that I
>hadn't made many friends there.
>
>LR: Was that a strange time for you? Living there without really
>knowing anyone?
>
>WSB: Not particularly, I've visited many times, many places.
>
>LR: Do you think that the gereral tenor of life in Morocco influenced
>the way ou were writing at that point? The daily life coming out in some
>of the routines?
>
>WSB: Probably. The more I was in that surrounding the more I liked it.
>More and more.
>
>LR: More and more as you stayed?
>
>WSB: Yeah it was cheap and then, I met this guy Dave Ulmer (?), who
>was, Barnaby Bliss, he was at work for the man who did a column for
>their Tanger paper English paper run by an old expatriate named Byrd,
>William Byrd, an old Paris expat.
>
>LR: Were there many tourists in Morocco then?
>
>WSB: Not many at all.
>
>LR: That must have been nice.
>
>WSB: It was nice. In the summer of course you had sometimes quite a few
>Scandinavians, Germans laughs Brian Howard said about the Swedes, I
>thik it was: "You're all ugly, you're all queer, and none of you have
>any money!"
>
>LR: Well, you know, that was another quote in Miles book, from you,
>saying that you'd "never seen so many people in one place without any
>money or the prospect of any money " I guess you could live pretty
>cheaply there?
>
>WSB: You could live pretty cheaply there, yes.
>
>LR: At that time did Americans have to register with the police to live
>there?
>
>WSB: f course not, nothing, they had to do nothing. Well, they put in
>various regulations in town you had to get a card. By the time we got
>our goddamn cards and stood in line and had to take all that crap I had
>to get one of those in France, too well, anyway, by that time they had
>another idea (laughs), so your card that you had aquired was worthless
>
>LR: Were you involved much in the music there? Did you hear a lot of
>music while you were in Tanger did it make any strong impression on you?
>
>WSB: Well, I like the Moroccan music very much
>
>LR: It seems to be a very big part of the lifestyle
>
>WSB: Yes, it is, indeed.
>
>LR: A lot of music, a lot of kef smoking, a lot of contemplation, in a
>way
>
>WSB: Yes, well the music in omnipresent. I'd be sitting at my desk and
>hear it outside. It was all around you.
>
>LR: William, that about covers the subjects I'd wanted to get at you
>with, on there
>
>WSB: Sure
>
>LR: I guess your friendship with Bowles started a bit later
>
>WSB: Yes, it did.
>
>LR: Do you enjoy his writing?
>
>WSB: Very much, very much.
>
>LR: He's got a very interesting style
>
>WSB: Very particular style particularly in the end of Let It Come Down,
>that's terrific, terrific, and then The Sheltering Sky is almost a
>perfect novel
>
>LR: Yeah.
>
>WSB: The end of that, oh man, that quote: "well you turned, stopped it
>was the end of the line " great!
>
>LR: Did you know Jane (Bowles)?
>
>WSB: Oh yes, quite well.
>
>LR: What'd you think of her?
>
>WSB: Oh she was incredible
>
>LR: I've heard incredible things about her she lived quite an
>interesting life herself, although I guess in general, in Tanger and
>Morocco, women were very much invisible, in a certain way. Native women.
>
>WSB: It's a very complicated situation, very complex, and I don't
>pretend to know much about it. Jane Bowles was sort of known for her
>strange behavior. In New York they invited her to some party where all
>these powerful ladies were, and they asked her, "Mrs. Bowles, what do
>you think of all this?", and she said "Oh" and fell to the floor in
>quite a genuine faint.
>
>LR: That was her answer?
>
>WSB: That was her answer. She had no (unintelligible).
>
>LR: Are you still in touch with Bachir?
>
>WSB: No, not really.
>
>LR: You were in touch with his father, I suppose
>
>WSB: Yes, I knew the old man, sure, I remember him.
>
>LR: He was the leader of the group back then?
>
>WSB: Yeah.
>
>LR: How many musicians would you say were in the group back then?
>
>WSB: Oh, I don't know, it would vary, I'd say about 12, 15.
>
>LR: That's about how many there still are now.
>
>LR: Okay William, I think that that's gonna be good.
>
>WSB: Well fine.
>
>LR: I appreciate your talking to me, it's a great pleasure to talk to
>you.
>
>WSB: Well, it's my pleasure too.
>
>LR: Okay, I hope to get another chance to come out and say hellow to
>you out there in Lawrence
>
>WSB: Fine.
>
>LR: Y'know, I have one last question for you
>
>WSB: Good.
>
>LR: Is that, uh, typewriter still growing out in your garden?
>
>WSB: (puzzled) What typewriter?
>
>LR: Last time we were there you had a typewriter growing in your garden
>amongst all the plants and things
>
>WSB: Oh, just one I threw away I guess
>
>LR: Yeah, it was a very beautiful image there, with the weeds coming up
>through the keys
>
>WSB: (laughs) I guess so I don't remember the typewriter I've gone
>through so many typewriters wear 'em out and throw 'em away.
>
>LR: Do you generally write with a computer these days?
>
>WSB: I have no idea how to do it. No, I don't.
>
>LR: Typewriter or longhand?
>
>WSB: Typewriter or longhand, yes. These modern inventions! James has
>one, but I just don't.
>
>LR: Okay, well listen William, I thank you very much. Please tell both
>Jim and James thanks for their help as well.
>
>WSB: I certainly will.
>
>LR: Okay, you take care.
>
>WSB: You too.
>
>LR: Bye bye.
>
>WSB: Bye bye.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:16:44 -0400
Reply-To: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: We've had the builders in...
In-Reply-To: <l03020905b015746d985b@[198.5.212.48]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Burroughs is only in the U2 video for 2 or 3 seconds at least. Right at
the end when the band arrives at the scene of the apocalyptic white light
it is revealed that the light is eminating from a shopping cart with a
spotlight lying in it being pushed by the illustrious William S.
Burroughs wearing dark oldmanwraparound sunglasses. Video ends with a
freeze on his face and fade out. A pretty lackluster video all around.
Nothing to get in a fuss over.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@acs.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:19:38 -0700
Reply-To: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
Comments: To: mike@buchenroth.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I saw this obit posted to the alt.books.beat-generation newsgroup so had
read it. But thanks to you for posting it here for everyone to read.
One thing I find interesting is this obit in light of an earlier post by
runner who presented comments by someone name Houghton. Houghton wrote:
"One of the things that irritated me most in the obits for WSB was the
singular lack of any acknowledgement that his work was at all FUNNY."
Of note is that this WSJ piece did mention this and the comparisons to Swift
that were made about Burroughs (one by Kerouac). So in other words here is
an example of an obit that acknowledged that he was funny (or at least that
he was considered funny by his admirers).
Believe it or not I think this writer was more familiar and understood
Burroughs work much better than the other obit writers (with exceptions I am
sure) who seemed to have some details and know he was supposed to be
important. This guy knew who Burroughs was and knew why he was significant.
It's a free country and no one has to like the writings of someone else.
And on a side note, I like the Chocolate Pebble much more than Fruity ones
but I wouldn't be putting down fruity pebbles.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:34:35 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: U2 universal laugh off ramp
Comments: To: babu@electriciti.com
In a message dated 97-08-11 22:00:24 EDT, you write:
<< Here's another forward from Gerald Houghton. Seems to be an intelligent
man with lots in the know department. Anybody know about the U2 video and
Burroughs?? >>
Yes..U2 in Kansas City with B pushing a shopping cart in a traffic jam. He
was on his way there last I saw him. THE FOUR OFF RAMPS OF THE APOCALYPSE
He signed a copy of WL for my son who had been in Missuola, Montana. B.
recalled his fishing there with his father.
Like a true Johnson, he shared his last stuff with me. "It will kick in about
the time you get to Kansas City" and vaya con dios to me and billy as we
drove off.
That was early this spring.
And yes of course, His midwestern dry wit and humour. Really! if you haven't
had a helluva laugh with B you and readin him.That's what he was all about.
Actually,I heard a lots of things again in his rcorded voice. The old
rounder, con man, etc.; took 'em into reality and space and then some. He
was part of them,too. As we were looking at one of his mobils, it was
hallucenitory magic of the carny. I felt my experiences upon seeing the great
masters.
C. Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:52:24 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Billie, Ruth and Ruth...for Diane
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Diane,
Just got my box of goodies (books, CD and Expos's hat!) from Howard
Park and included was the "Jack's Book: An Oral Biography of Jack Kerouac"
with a very complete map of who's who at the back and a geneology of his
texts. ...City Lights bookmark too!
Ruth Heaper was Helen Weaver, a girlfriend of Jack's in NYC; Ruth
Erickson was Helen Elliot, a roommate of Helen Weaver's. Billie is Jackie
Gibson Mercier, a mistress on Neal's from San FRancisco and lover of Jack's
during Big Sur. She had a son and wanted Jack to marry her, thus the passage
you quoted.
Couldn't find any reference to Julien, although he used Julien to
refer to Lucien Carr on several in two other books...anyone else know the
answer?
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 00:52:25 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Who the hell is Roger Kimball and what is The New Criterion???
Antoine
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:53:33 -0700
Reply-To: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970812060057.00688d50@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Thank you, Rinaldo Rasa, for posting your telephone chat with Burroughs -
I had always imagined calling him. WSB sounds a mite tired, but there's
a moment where the old spirit can be heard:
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
<snip>
> WSB: Well, you'll notice more subdivisions now as it's modernized
> and is no longer cheap
Sharp as a razor.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
recordings."
- William S. Burroughs
(quoted from memory)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:00:19 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Interstate Hell.
Comments: To: babu@electriciti.com
Well hell, haven't you noticed the NYT Newmorality speak? Except for science
and research, the language is virtually being replace. Most people in this
country are illiterate anyway (as in reading between the lines). No
inferences 'ferinstance are needed in the Bible, only emotive symbolism of
magical notions, such as the Holy Trinity, etc. So my point is: Who the hell
they think they're controlling information for...Anyhow? Well, their bodies
are what they still need. Someone's gotta clean the shithouse as it's
exploding. Part of it might be just putting a face on it, y'know 'cause know
one wants to see it. It's pyschotic now, anyhow, out there, I'll tell you. I
just got off an Interstate through hell How could one live in Scranton, for
example. Toxic behaviorism burning?
C. plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:08:44 -0400
Reply-To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Rinaldo,
Where did you get that terrific intervew between Lee Ranaldo and
Burroughs? Ranaldo has done some music by himself away from Sonic Youth that
I really like. The interview was terrific with all the references to Bowles
and the others.
Thanks
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"
-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:10:29 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Harry Anslinger Rides Again
Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net
In a message dated 97-08-11 22:28:45 EDT, you write:
<< For more info those interested might check this site from the Cognitive
Enhancement Research Institute.
J. Stauffer
>>
What the hell, they took over my research area for a lousy cover. Bastards!
Some day I would like to testify in one of those drug hearings. After letting
them speak the dead language with their wooden puppet mouths, I would lite
up a big reefer and say, "Gentlemen, Watch me get high. Let me know if or
when you see something wrong with me. And when you leave this room, look in
the mirror"
Charles Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:18:02 -0400
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UNDERGRAD.MATH.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
In-Reply-To: <33EFFFC8.5258@buchenroth.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> The Death of Decency
>
> By ROGER KIMBALL
> There are few poems by Ginsberg that could be quoted whole in this
> newspaper; I doubt whether any page of "Naked Lunch," Burroughs's
> celebrated 1959 fantasy about a violent, drugridden sexual underworld,
> could be.
As if I needed another reason not to read it.
> A generous person might be tempted to describe the accumulated literary
> value of both writers as null. But that would be grossly unfair to
> nullity. The poet Edith Sitwell came closer to the truth when she
> described "Naked Lunch" as "psychopathological filth."
>From "A Review of the Reviewers":
"This reviewer is very tired of so-called critics who would substitute for
criticism invective and insults strung together like so many gibbering
maniacs in an asylum."
(Burroughs does fall into the same name-calling here, but in the context
of the essay it comes across as ironic: using their word weapons against
them. In the essay it appears after a similar comment made in a review of
Eterminator!)
> I agree that Ginsberg and Burroughs were "transgressive." But
> is that a good thing? After all, Saddam Hussein is "transgressire" too.
See Burroughs via Korzybski on semantics and the all around
meaninglessness of calling someone a "fascist", for instance. This is the
silliest syllogism I've seen in all my life.
> Although predominantly homosexual, he had married and fathered a
> son.
He married and fathered a son? Wow, I'm my own grandma.
> But McCarthy was wrong.
Now which McCarthy is he referring to here? I better check my John Birch
manual.
> Burroughs was not a reformer. Unlike Swift, he
> had no ideal to oppose to the degradation his books depicted.
Where was the ideal Swift proposed? Must be an apocryphal text that our
esteemed Mr. Kimball is in possession of, unless he figures those wacky
Hhouhynyms (egregiously misspelt) were the ideal.
Hmm, he also obviously hasn't read Burroughs' trilogy beginning with
"Cities": Burroughs' exploration of utopian possibities. Burroughs
eventually gives up, but he has a go at it. I guess he failed to notice
the passage in Naked Lunch (I may be making an erroneous assumption here
that Mr. Kimball has read past the atrophied preface he quotes from) which
details the first germination of a possible utopia amongst the carny world
of dystopias:
"A cooperative... can live without the state. That is the road to follow.
The building up of independent units to meet the needs of the people who
participate in the functioning of the unit." Naked Lunch pg 154.
Sounds rather ideal to me. Of course Burroughs does not develop this idea
at all until we see a glimmer of it in The Wild Boys, and its ultimate
manifestation in Port Roger from Cities. But alas, the Articulated were
doomed because there were just too many shits.
> On William
> Burroughs the contrary, he was a cynical opportunist who realized that
> calling his work "satire" could help exempt it from legal action.
I seem to recall that Burroughs refused to testify or participate in the
trial on principle, but apparently Mr. Kimball is better acquainted with
Burroughs' defense. I can't remember him calling his own work satire
either. "Picaresque" he has used, in The Adding Machine, and elsewhere,
but that's the closest you'll find to Burroughs' personal genre
classification (unless one counts the "A Fiction in the Form of a Film
Script" appended to the 2nd edition of Dutch Schultz, or "A Novel", the
subtitle of Exterminator!).
> Ira Silverberg, a publicist for Burroughs, is
> quoted as saying that "William Burroughs opened the door for supporters
> of freedom of expression." In fact, Burroughs helped open the door on
> the public acceptance and academic adulation of violent, dehumanizing
> pornography as a protected form of free speech.
So are we to believe that the people who call Burroughs' writing
"literature" merely read it, but the people like our Mr. Kimball
who call it "pornography" masturbate to it?
> "Obscenity was successfully regulated," she notes, "because there was
> broad consensus about indecency, rooted in the old standards of the
> reticent sensibility."
Ah, why can't we return to good ole Queen Victoria, so that all the incest
and sado-masochism goes back behind closed doors where it can be ignored.
Anyone here read The Pearl: The Underground Magazine of Victorian
England? Grove published all of them together in one volume; great
look at what went on behind closed doors at Thornfield Hall:
Jane: No! No! Rochester sir, I'm the governess, it's a shame to punish me
so, Oh! Oh! Oh! My God sir, have mercy I beg you!
Rochester: You'll learn the mercy of the rod and the birch before I'm
finished with you, Ms. Eyre, now be silent you impudent hussey.
I imagine Mr. Kimball will take on the Oxford English Dictionary next for
including this pornographic entry:
gamahuche ('gaem&schwa.hu:S), v. slang. Also gamaruche. [ad. Fr.
gamahucher.] trans. To practise fellatio or cunnilingus (with);
also intr. Also as sb. Hence gamahucher.
1879-80 Pearl 271 "You may frig and gamahuche and try every plan,
But fair fucking's the pride of an Englishman."
All those pornographers at Oxford and their vulgar pornography... I can
see them now, in their academic robes with the ole John Thomas standing at
attention for all the schoolboys to admire...
> THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
> SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES: Call 1-800-JOURNAL, or see
Somebody remind me to renew my subscription.
Although this particular obituary writer may come off as possessing a tad
more knowledge than the sum of nil of which the others are in possession,
he is far from accurate in many places, Timothy.
In any case, when those of you who are reading The Western Lands get to
the part about the reviewer, you can join me in wishing a door dog on
Roger Kimball.
Cheers,
Neil
PS I haven't read any newspapers, and have shied away from the slanderous,
misinformed posts on r.m.d. because I just can't help responding,
but defending him against shits really is no way to honour Burroughs'
memory. With that, I end any responses to inaccurate invective.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 01:36:25 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97
Comments: To: foosi@global.california.com
In a message dated 97-08-12 01:01:05 EDT, you write:
<< WSB: Well, you'll notice more subdivisions now as it's modernized
> and is no longer cheap
Sharp as a razor. >>
In every direction we look....
C.Plymell
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:09:01 -0700
Reply-To: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97
Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com
In-Reply-To: <970812013625_1848781656@emout01.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 12 Aug 1997 CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 97-08-12 01:01:05 EDT, you write:
> > > WSB: Well, you'll notice more subdivisions now as it's
> > > modernized and is no longer cheap
> > Sharp as a razor.
> In every direction we look....
And in vain. "He was a man. Take him all in all, and all for all, we shall
not see his like again."
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing
not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,
the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the
recordings."
- William S. Burroughs
(quoted from memory)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:33:59 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
In-Reply-To: <33EFFFC8.5258@buchenroth.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:16 PM -0700 8/11/97, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
> How, then, can we explain the extent to which Ginsberg and Burroughs
> have been lionized by the media and the academic literary establishment?
what to do with a drunken sailor
a drunken sailor
a drunken sailor
early in the morning
???
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:47:24 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: Interstate Hell.
Comments: To: CVEditions@aol.com
In-Reply-To: <970812010017_806067399@emout04.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:00 PM -0700 8/11/97, CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
> example. Toxic behaviorism burning?
am gonna have to think about that one cp
toxic behaviorism burning....
watching this television show tonight
hell, everynight
the charles grodin show, but hosted by E. Jean Carrol
discussion on sex and gender; da ladies da men
very funny overall, enlightening in parts
realizing that all the action is in connections
yes, who are they saving information for?
well themselves, of course
information wants to be free
men wanna humpback the world
ladies wanna nice dinna
who knows? yeah, I know
> C. plymell
Douglas
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:20:42 -0400
Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: afterlife press conference
Comments: To: babu@electriciti.com, jwhite333@sprintmail.com
Could we have an afterlife press conference? (well, wouldn't you?) I've been
up half the night with candle burning, insense too. B's farewell card over my
shoulder...
I'd like to ask Mr. Burroughs: How universal is pain?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:20:56 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD) How the beats beat the First Amendment
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Return-Path: <bofus@fcom.com>
>Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:27:32 -0800
>From: bofus? <bofus@fcom.com>
>To: bofus@fcom.com
>Subject: How the beats beat the First Amendment
>
>How the beats beat the First Amendment
>
>
>N.Y. Times News Service
>
>(August 11, 1997 11:58 a.m. EDT) - The last year has been pretty much
>the end of the road for the Beat Generation, with the deaths of Herbert
>Huncke, the hustler who gave Jack Kerouac the word "beat," Allen
>Ginsberg, who gave poetry "Howl," and, on Aug. 2, William S. Burroughs,
>who gave the world, ready or not, "Naked Lunch."
>
>The beats' defiance of authority and their experimentation with drugs
>and sex helped set a generation on course for the counterculture of the
>1960s. Not that censors didn't see what was coming. In 1957 Ginsberg
>overcame an obscenity prosecution for "Howl," which celebrated
>homosexuality and eroticism. In 1965 "Naked Lunch," in which Burroughs
>opened the doors to hallucinatory visions of American society, was ruled
>obscene in Massachusetts.
>
>For Burroughs' American publisher, Grove Press, this was good news. When
>it first came out in France in 1959, "Naked Lunch" wasn't even reviewed.
>After 1965, it was a cause celebre.
>
>Better yet, before the Massachusetts Supreme Court heard Grove's appeal
>in 1966, the U.S. Supreme Court set a new precedent in a case involving
>"John Cleland's Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasure" -- Fanny Hill. Its
>ruling meant that to be found pornographic, "Naked Lunch" would have to
>be "utterly without redeeming social value."
>
>The result was a literary trial that elevated the least upbeat of the
>beats (Burroughs had a dim view of humanity) to cult status. Grove
>rushed out a new edition that included testimony. In it, the
>uncertainties on both sides of the wavering cultural divide showed. To
>get along, even the beats had to play along. Excerpts from that edition
>follow. -- GEORGE JUDSON
>
>Burroughs, a former drug addict with a pharmacologist's knowledge of
>narcotics, had tried to inoculate "Naked Lunch" against challenges with
>an introduction describing a high purpose:
>
>I awoke from The Sickness at the age of forty-five, calm and sane, and
>in reasonably good health except for a weakened liver and the look of
>borrowed flesh common to all who survive The Sickness. . . . I have no
>precise memory of writing the notes which have now been published under
>the title "Naked Lunch." The title was suggested by Jack Kerouac. I did
>not understand what the title meant until my recent recovery. The title
>means exactly what the words say: NAKED Lunch -- a frozen moment when
>everyone sees what is on the end of every fork.
>
>The Sickness is drug addiction and I was an addict for fifteen years. .
>. .
>
>So "Naked Lunch" was a brief for eliminating heroin use by treating
>junkies rather than punishing them. Burroughs made his case:
>
>Dope fiends are sick people who cannot act other than they do. . . .
>Assuming a self-righteous position is nothing to the purpose unless your
>purpose is to keep the junk virus in operation. And junk is a big
>industry." . . .
>
>The junk virus is public health problem number one of the world today
>(emphasis his). Since "Naked Lunch" treats this health problem, it is
>necessarily brutal, obscene and disgusting.
>
>What about the lurid sex scenes that include, among many activities,
>hangings? He explained:
>
>Certain passages in the book that have been called pornographic were
>written as a tract against Capital Punishment in the manner of Jonathan
>Swift's "Modest Proposal." These sections are intended to reveal capital
>punishment as the obscene, barbaric and disgusting anachronism it is.
>
>The dodge didn't work; a judge ruled "Naked Lunch" was hard-core
>pornography. As the appeal moved along, other novels with legal troubles
>included "Candy" by Terry Southern and "Last Exit to Brooklyn" by Hubert
>Selby Jr. Norman Mailer testified for Burroughs:
>
>There is a kind of speech that is referred to as gutter talk that often
>has a very fine, incisive, dramatic line to it; and Burroughs captures
>that speech like no American writer I know. He also . . . has an
>exquisite poetic sense. His poetic images are intense. They are often
>disgusting; but at the same time there is a sense of collision in them,
>of montage that is quite unusual.
>
>Mailer also found deep meaning:
>
>William Burroughs is in my opinion -- whatever his conscious intention
>may be -- a religious writer. There is a sense in "Naked Lunch" of the
>destruction of soul, which is more intense than any I have encountered
>in any other modern novel. It is a vision of how mankind would act if
>man was totally divorced from eternity. . . .
>
>Just as Hieronymus Bosch set down the most diabolical and blood-curdling
>details . . . so, too, does Burroughs leave you with an intimate,
>detailed vision of what Hell might be like, a Hell which may be waiting
>as the culmination, the final product, of the scientific revolution.
>
>Allen Ginsberg testified, too:
>
>The concept of addiction is carried out to include, in Burroughs'
>phrase, "control addicts," or people who are habituated or pushing other
>people around. What it boils down to: controlling them sexually,
>politically, socially. . . . there are almost scientific expositions
>given by the author of techniques of mass brainwash and mass control,
>and theories of modern dictatorships, theories of modern police states.
>. . .
>
>I think he is laconically, satirically analyzing them and presenting
>evidences of these activities in our modern culture, now and then in a
>science-fiction style, projecting them into the future, nightmare
>situations if control addicts took over.
>
>Ginsberg, a homosexual and former lover of Burroughs, was asked to sort
>out the political parties portrayed in "Naked Lunch." Who, satirically,
>was whom? "The Divisionists (one party in the book) are the
>homosexuals?" the court asked. There seemed likely to be a correct
>answer:
>
>Yes. The Divisionist is a parody of a homosexual situation also; but
>Burroughs is (Ginsberg's emphasis) attacking the homosexuals in this
>book also.
>
>The court then asked, "Do the conservatives fall into any particular sex
>class in this book?" Ginsberg replied:
>
>Well, I think the conservatives, if we consider the Factualist (another
>party) to be conservative, I think they have a feeling of laissez-faire,
>whatever is natural, whatever does no harm will be acceptable. . . .
>
>A justice put in:
>
>"Lest anyone take this seriously, of course, obviously it is a fantasy."
>
>But the justice soon returned to homosexuality:
>
>"Let me ask again. Do you think he is seriously suggesting that some
>time in the future that a political party will be in some way concerned
>with sex? (Grove's lawyer tried to speak.) Excuse me. When I say,
>"Concerned with sex," I don't mean in an attempt to reform perversion. .
>. . what he is trying to portray here, is that some time in the future
>there will be a political party, for instance, made up of homosexuals?
>
>Ginsberg replied:
>
>Well, I think, saying that, this has already happened in a sense, -- or
>of sex perverts -- and we can point to Hitler, Germany under Hitler.
>
>In a 4-2 decision, the court found that "Naked Lunch" "may appeal to the
>prurient interest of deviants and those curious about deviants. To us,
>it is grossly offensive and is what the author himself says, 'brutal,
>obscene and disgusting.' "
>
>But applying the new federal test, the court stated, "we cannot ignore
>the serious acceptance of it by so many persons in the literary
>community. Hence, we cannot say that 'Naked Lunch' has no 'redeeming
>social importance.' "
>
>"Naked Lunch" passed. And the obscenity test has since been revised; it
>now requires a "reasonable person" to find that a work is prurient,
>violates contemporary community standards and, taken as a whole, "lacks
>serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value."
>
>Ginsberg concluded his testimony with a poem, "On Burroughs' Work." It
>ends:
>
>A naked lunch is natural to us, we eat reality sandwiches. But
>allegories are so much lettuce. Don't hide the madness.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 11:19:11 +0200
Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD) Burroughs' last thoughts on death, drugs, Gingrich
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Return-Path: <bofus@fcom.com>
>Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:25:45 -0800
>From: bofus? <bofus@fcom.com>
>To: bofus@fcom.com
>Subject: Burroughs' last thoughts on death, drugs, Gingrich
>
>William Burroughs' journals reveal last thoughts on death, drugs,
>Gingrich
>
>
>The Associated Press
>
>NEW YORK (August 11, 1997 11:58 a.m. EDT) -- Until the end, William S.
>Burroughs shuddered at the thought of a world without drugs and railed
>against the politicians trying to ban them.
>
>The latest issue of "The New Yorker," which hits newsstands Monday,
>contains excerpts from journals kept by the Beat Generation author and
>former heroin addict in which he criticizes Newt Gingrich and other
>politicians he blamed for trying to make American life "banal."
>
>"That vile salamander Gingrich, squeaker of the House, is slobbering
>about a drug-free America by the year 2001," Burroughs wrote about two
>months before his Aug. 2 death at age 83.
>
>"What a dreary prospect! ... No dope fiends, just good, clean-living
>decent Americans from sea to shining sea," he wrote on May 31. "How I
>hate those who are dedicated to producing conformity."
>
>The author of "Naked Lunch" also praised Beat poet Allen Ginsberg for
>struggling against censorship to challenge the mores of American
>society.
>
>"Allen made holes in the Big Lie not only with his poetry but with his
>presence, his self-evident spiritual truth," he wrote on May 25.
>
>Ginsberg's death April 5 caused him to think about the end of his own
>life.
>
>"I thought I would be terrified, but I am exhilarated," Burroughs
>recalled his friend saying.
>
>The day before Burroughs died, he wrote his last entry, which was
>printed on cards and distributed among the 250 mourners at his funeral
>in Lawrence, Kan.
>
>"Love? What is it? Most natural painkiller. What there is. LOVE."
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:19:18 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Antoine Maloney wrote:
>
> Who the hell is Roger Kimball and what is The New Criterion???
>
> Antoine
It seems to be a literary journal for people who have extremely bad
taste. They seem to be a literary version of Jessie Helms. My question
is: How wide a distribution do they have? Are they in every university
library across the country? And does anyone take them seriously? If so,
I think we should start writing letters to the editor to the media that
are publishing their crap.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:25:13 -0700
Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Naked Lunch
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The first paragraph of the introduction to Naked Lunch begins, "I awoke
from The Sickness at the age of forty-five, calm and sane, and in
reasonably good health except for a weakened liver and the look of
borrowed flesh common to all who survive The Sickness."
Does Burroughs ever articulate what caused him, after 15 years of drug
use, to suddenly wake up one morning and think, I'm not going to do this
anymore?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:37:38 -0400
Reply-To: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
BEAT-Lers: sorry if I'm posting this twice. I'm trying a new email
reader/sender. I'm making every possible email-mistake this morning.
Tony
***********************************************
Diane Carter wrote:
>> Antoine Maloney wrote:
>>
>> Who the hell is Roger Kimball and what is The New Criterion???
>>
>> Antoine
>
>It seems to be a literary journal for people who have extremely bad
>taste. They seem to be a literary version of Jessie Helms. My question
>is: How wide a distribution do they have? Are they in every university
>library across the country? And does anyone take them seriously? If so,
>I think we should start writing letters to the editor to the media that
>are publishing their crap.
>DC
*The New Criterion* is an ugly old standard of the right wing, and is
distributed widely in universities, bookstores, and, here in Boston, even in
Tower Records. The tone of the journal can be so smarmy that the editors
might actually welcome response letters from BEAT-L: such letters might be
seen perversely as a sign that the journal rattled Beat readers (a sort of
"Nyaah, nyaah, we took your lunch money at recess!" that is so popular among
the right wing at the moment).
Yours, so pained by an infected cat scratch on my thumb that I barely can
tap the space bar,
Tony
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:43:21 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: WSB, so long!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
again, cribbed from the patti smith list
props to Dan for doing all he did below
wish I coulda been there - Douglas
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: Dan Whitworth <dan@pint.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: WSB, so long!
A free concert in San Diego's Balboa Park on Saturday, August 9 included a
tribute to William S. Burroughs. A friend of mine was DJ'ing between bands
so we put something together. We kicked it off with Burroughs reading
'Uranian Willy' (aka 'Towers Open Fire') from "Call Me Burroughs." Then I
said a few words about WSB, quoted from JG Ballard's Burroughs obituary, and
introduced local poet Marc Kockinos. After Marc read some of his own
material, not WSB-specific but very appropriate, I read portions of "The
Western Lands." This started with the book's opening paragraphs about The
Old Writer, segued into the last chapter's section about the cat Smoker
whose return coincided with The Old Writer's death by coronary, and ended
with the book's final paragraph: "Hurry up, please. It's time."
At the time, I had no idea that WSB's cat Fletch had died two weeks before
WSB himself. I chose this text because the image of the mysterious black cat
as an emissary or embodiment of loving death seemed appropriate. (My own cat
Gandy had died the night before, just a few months short of 15 years, but I
had already chosen the text before that.) To top it all off, a beloved aunt
of mine had died a few weeks earlier, so I felt as if I was reading not just
for Burroughs but for all who have gone, all who are mourning. Through some
oversight, I was never introduced to the audience, but that was fine by me:
I felt more comfortable just being some anonymous guy, reading for the dead.
After I read, we played 'The Western Lands (a dangerous road mix)' from
Material's recently reissued "Seven Souls" and other Burroughs recordings,
some with music, some without. Some people in the sparse (and somewhat
random) crowd obviously didn't know who WSB was, but quite a few of them
really enjoyed hearing him read. 'The Lexington Narcotic Hospital' got quite
a few laughs ("Doctor, when you die I wanna be buried in the same coffin
with you!" --- "Ask me what the American flag means to me, doc, and I'll
tell ya-- soak it in heroin and I'll suck it!"). A watched some women in the
front row at the Organ Pavilion who kept asking each other 'What is this?'
but they were obviously getting into it, particularly Dr. Benway's attempted
apendectomy in "Twilight's Last Gleaming."
When the next band, Wormhole Effect, came on, my friend continued to DJ,
having become their official provider of additional sound textures some time
back; he included some more Burroughs reading throughout their set.
As this was going on, a teenager approached me and asked "Where did you get
the phonographs of the great poet?" I wrote down the titles of some
Burroughs recordings that are still in print and he walked away happy.
Another fellow, closer to my age (but probably on the farther side of forty)
spotted my t-shirt, which features a repeating pattern of Burroughs' face
and a foreground image of a smiling WSB with pistol and fedora. "Great
shirt," he said, in almost awe-struck tones. Then he surprised me by putting
his hands on my shoulders and sadly contemplating Burroughs' face! "I used
to live in St. Louis," he told me ruefully as he raised his face to mine. "I
know his house." As he walked away, he murmeured, "I can't believe he's gone."
Well, who can?
- --Dan Whitworth
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 07:58:03 -0700
Reply-To: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>
Subject: Re: afterlife press conference
In-Reply-To: <970812032041_-1706655616@emout01.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:20 AM -0700 8/12/97, CVEditions@aol.com wrote:
> Could we have an afterlife press conference? (well, wouldn't you?) I've been
> up half the night with candle burning, insense too. B's farewell card over my
> shoulder...
>
> I'd like to ask Mr. Burroughs: How universal is pain?
Well, the man told me
that all life is pain and suffering
that we'll be lucky to get off this wheel
and that people only learn thru pain
I argued of course
in a high whisper
"no, daddy, people are good"
but he was right
dreamt last night I was with friends
new found friends, friends I didn't know
we were at this mall, flying around
went to watch a movie, with our backpacks
et al. it turned out to be an indoor/outdoor
amplitheatre [toothpaste dripping out my mouth now
of course I felt alone
alone in the seats with my family
alone up there on stage
alone with my friends
so pain? how universal?
I can't speak for Burroughs
though I'ld like to hear someone try
but my answer would be:
as universal as cotton candy
douglas [[hell, I don't know :: you ok CP?
http://www.electriciti.com/babu/ | 0 |
step aside, and let the man go thru | { - |
----> let the man go thru | /\ |
super bon-bon (soul coughing) =========
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:30:27 -0500
Reply-To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: WSB, so long!
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runner wrote:
>
> again, cribbed from the patti smith list
> props to Dan for doing all he did below
> wish I coulda been there - Douglas
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> From: Dan Whitworth <dan@pint.com>
> Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 12:04:36 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: WSB, so long!
>
>
> At the time, I had no idea that WSB's cat Fletch had died two weeks before
> WSB himself. I chose this text because the image of the mysterious black cat
> as an emissary or embodiment of loving death seemed appropriate.
on the way back from the Re-Play celebration after the memorial service
on Vermont Street somewhere between where Bogart's used to be some years
ago and where the post office is still on the East side of the road
walking down the sidewalk i met this mysterious black cat. i paused.
it paused. i looked into its eyes. It looked into my eyes. We
acknowledge-communicated-whatever you wish to call such connections and
then the cat turned and walked in the direction of the Celebration and i
continued towards the post office and my car.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:55:15 -0700
Reply-To: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: who's who?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I'm still working on "On the Road," and have a character question.
Don't jump all over me for this...if it screams ignorance...chalk it up
to unfamiliarity. Who is Remi...and subsequently Lee Ann?
-shannon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:29:45 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
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Tim wrote:
><<I saw this obit posted to the alt.books.beat-generation newsgroup so had
read it. But thanks to you for posting it here for everyone to read.>>
>yes, thanx for sending.
>
><<Believe it or not I think this writer was more familiar and understood
>Burroughs work much better than the other obit writers (with exceptions I am
>sure) who seemed to have some details and know he was supposed to be
important. This guy knew who Burroughs was and knew why he was
>significant. It's a free country and no one has to like the writings of
someone else.>>
Yes, and we should all have critics like this one. <<really>> Not
quite in the same vein as Larry Flynt and whatshisface Farrel, but an
opposition that gives good definition. Such critiques provide fuel and
inspiration. Kinda like how Burroughs wrote through it, his pain, I
suppose. Kinda like all the obsenity trials and public outrage that
surrounds certain books/authors. just more fuel to the fire. <<a
>defining purpose results>>
>
and it goes to show that if you can't keep a good dog down in life, you
sure can kick em a few times in death. fuck the new york times.
>
>Douglas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:42:39 -0700
Reply-To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>
Subject: Re: (FWD) Burroughs' last thoughts on death, drugs, Gingrich
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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yep, cottoncandy. most certainly.
>----------
>From: Rinaldo Rasa[SMTP:rinaldo@GPNET.IT]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 1997 2:19 AM
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>Subject: (FWD) Burroughs' last thoughts on death, drugs, Gingrich
>
>>The day before Burroughs died, he wrote his last entry, which was
>>printed on cards and distributed among the 250 mourners at his funeral
>>in Lawrence, Kan.
>>
>>"Love? What is it? Most natural painkiller. What there is. LOVE."
>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:45:40 -0400
Reply-To: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles
Comments: To: mike@buchenroth.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
To tell the truth, I think that the author of this article is just jealous
because he isn't as good as Burroughs or Ginsberg!
At 11:16 PM 8/11/97 -0700, Michael L. Buchenroth wrote:
>Last Saturday morning (Friday night) I read an article / bio / slam /
>insulting and frightening propaganda bullshit narrowly filtered opinion
>in the "Wall Street Journal" about Burroughs and the Beats, etc.
>***
>This Roger Kimball guy has eaten Fruity Pebbles everyday of his life
>since his 4th birthday when his great grandmother, A. Puritan, gave him
>his first box as a gift. He measures precisely 1/2 cup of 2% each day.
>And all this time, he has used the same licked-worn spoon too. He likes
>to lick the tarnish from that clad silver plated zink, lead, and steel
>alloy spoon. Ole Roger seems just a few licks short of bacon and eggs.
>Roger so loves his Fruity Pebbles...
>-Mike
>***
>This piece appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Friday August 8, 1997 .
>. .
>Read it and weep!
>The Dark Ages Lurk, yet!
>
>The Death of Decency
>
>By ROGER KIMBALL
>It has been a bad year for famous drugabusing literary charlatans. In
>April, the Beat poet Allen Ginsberg-author of "Howl" (1956) and
>innumerable other paeans to pharmacological and sexual excess-died of
>liver cancer at the age of 70. On Aug. 2, the Beat novelist William S.
>Burroughs succumbed to a heart attack at the age of 83. Considering the
>way they abused themselves - especially Burroughs, who was addicted to
>heroin for some 15 years-it is hard not to admire their robust
>constitutions.
> It is even harder, though, to admire anything else about the life or
>work of either. Both specialized in pretentious, proselytizing
>pornography: Ginsberg of an incense-burning, pseudo-Whitmanesque sort,
>Burroughs of a much grittier, sadomasochistic variety. There are few
>poems by Ginsberg that could be quoted whole in this newspaper; I doubt
>whether any page of "Naked Lunch," Burroughs's celebrated 1959 fantasy
>about a violent, drugridden sexual underworld, could be. A generous
>person might be tempted to describe the accumulated literary value of
>both writers as null. But that would be grossly unfair to nullity. The
>poet Edith Sitwell came closer to the truth when she described "Naked
>Lunch" as "psychopathological filth."
> How, then, can we explain the extent to which Ginsberg and Burroughs
>have been lionized by the media and the academic literary establishment?
>Anyone who read the obituaries these men received-especially Ginsberg,
>who got lavish, front-page treatment almost everywhere-might be tricked
>into thinking that they were important literary figures. In the early
>1990s, Stanford University paid $1 million for Ginsberg's papers. His
>works are published by prestigious houses and are studied in classrooms
>across the country. Ditto for Burroughs. The word "genius" is routinely
>applied to both. So is "transgressive"--a term that, tellingly, has
>emerged as a favorite word of praise among addicts of the "cutting
>edge."
> I agree that Ginsberg and Burroughs were "transgressive." But is that a
>good thing? After all, Saddam Hussein is "transgressire" too. The
>obituary of Burroroughs in The New York Times informed readers that "he
>spent years experimenting with drugs as well as with sex, which he
>engaged in with men, women, and children." Note the word
>"experimenting," as if Burroughs were engaged in some sort of of
>scientific inquiry rather than straight-foraward abuse of hard drugs and
>sordid sexual debauchery.
> Burroughs committed his most clearly transgressive act in Mexico in
>1951. Although predominantly homosexual, he had married and fathered a
>son. Drunk at a party, he took out a handgun and announced to his wife
>that it was time for their William Tell act. When he tried to shoot a
>glass off her head, he missed and killed her. As one obituary put it,
>"the circumstances of the killing were never fully investigated, and
>Burroughs fled Mexico City for South America rather than stand trial."
> Burroughs is often praised for his "humor." But as far as I can tell,
>there is only one genuinely funny sentence in "Naked Lunch," and its
>humor is inadvertent. "Certain passages in the book that have been
>called pornographic," Burroughs wrote in a preface, "were written as a
>tract against Capital Punishment in the manner of Jonathan Swift's
>'Modest Proposal.'"
> Burroughs wasn't alone in invoking the author of "Gulliver's Travels."
>Burroughs's fellow Beat writer Jack Kerouac wrote that his friend was
>"the greatest satirical writer since Jonathan Swift." In 1963, the
>critic and novelist Mary McCarthy solemnly said there were "many points
>of comparison" between the two, and concluded that, "like a classical
>satirist, Burroughs is dead serious--a reformer."
> But McCarthy was wrong. Burroughs was not a reformer. Unlike Swift, he
>had no ideal to oppose to the degradation his books depicted. On William
>Burroughs the contrary, he was a cynical opportunist who realized that
>calling his work "satire" could help exempt it from legal action. An
>obituary in The Village Voice described Burroughs as "utterly paranoid
>and utterly moral." That is exactly half right.
> It is significant that the careers of both Ginsberg and Burroughs began
>with an obscenity trial, Ginsberg with "'Howl" in 1957, Burroughs with
>"Naked Lunch" in 1962. Ira Silverberg, a publicist for Burroughs, is
>quoted as saying that "William Burroughs opened the door for supporters
>of freedom of expression." In fact, Burroughs helped open the door on
>the public acceptance and academic adulation of violent, dehumanizing
>pornography as a protected form of free speech.
> As Rochelle Gurstein pointed out in "The Repeal of Reticence," her
>astute book about free speech and obscenity, "it is a sign of our time
>that this ready-made plea for freedom of choice, and the dismissal of
>standards as a form of cultural imperialism, is automatically offered
>not only on behalf of commercial entertainment but also for obscene art
>and pornography."
> As Ms. Gurstein shows, it was not until the 1950s that the question of
>obscenity was cast as a First Amendment issue. Until then, free speech
>had been explicitly excluded by the courts as a defense for trafficking
>in obscene materials. The problem was not defining obscenity--about
>which there was wide agreement--but in assessing the degree of public
>harm the circulation of certain materials might be expected to cause.
>"Obscenity was successfully regulated," she notes, "because there was
>broad consensus about indecency, rooted in the old standards of the
>reticent sensibility."
> That consensus has long since dissolved, along with the moral
>sensibility that supported it. In this sense, Allen Ginsberg, William
>Burroughs. and the rest of the Beats really do mark an important moment
>in American culture, not as one of its achievements, but as a grievous
>example of its degeneration. The Village Voice observed that, when it
>came to appreciating his nihilism, "the culture had finally caught up
>with" Burroughs. Sadly, that couldn't be more accurate.
>
> Mr. Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion.
>
>THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
>
>Peter R. Kann Kenneth L. Burenga
>Chairman & Publisher President
>
>Paul E. Steiger Robert L. Bartley
>Managing Editor Editor
>Byron E. Calame Daniel Hemfinger
>Daniel Hertzberg Deputy Editor,
>Deputy Managing Editors Editorial Page
>
> Vice Presidents
>Danforth W. Austin General Manager
>Paul C. Atkinson AdVertising
>William E. Casey Jr. Circulation
>Michael F. Sheehan Production
>Charles F. Russell Technology
>F, Thomas Kull Jr. Operations
>
>Published since 1889 by
>
>DOWJONES & COMPANY
>
>Peter R. Kann, Chairman & Chief Executive Officer; Kenneth L. Burenga,
>President & Chief Operating
>Officer; CEO, Dew Jones Markets.
>Senior Vice Presidents: James H. Oftaway Jr.,
>Chairman, Ottaway Newspapers, President,
>Magazines; Peter G. Skinner, General Counsel,
>President, Television; Carl M. Valenti, Teetmology &
>Affiliates, President/Publisher, Newswires.
>Vice Presidents/Operating Groups: Karen Elliott House, President,
>International; Dorothea Cocoeli Palshe, President, Interactive
>Publishing.
>
>Vice Presidents: Kevin J. Roehe, Chief Financial Officer; Julian B.
>Childs, Markets; Paul J. Ingrassia, Richard J. Levino, Newswires; James
>A. Scaduto, Employee Relations; David E. Moran, Law.
>
>EDITORIAL AND CORPORATE HEADQUARTEES: 200 Liberty
>Street, New York, N.Y. 10281. Telephone (212) 416-2000.
>SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES: Call 1-800-JOURNAL, or see
>This piece appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Friday August 8, 1997 . . .
>Read it and weep!
>The Dark Ages Lurk, yet!
>
>The Death of Decency
>
>By ROGER KIMBALL
>It has been a bad year for famous drugabusing literary charlatans. In April,
the
> Beat poet Allen Ginsberg-author of "Howl" (1956) and innumerable other paeans
> to pharmacological and sexual excess-died of liver cancer at the age of 70. On
> Aug. 2, the Beat novelist William S. Burroughs succumbed to a heart attack at
> the age of 83. Considering the way they abused themselves - especially
> Burroughs, who was addicted to heroin for some 15 years-it is hard not to
> admire their robust constitutions.
> It is even harder, though, to admire anything else about the life or
work of
> either. Both specialized in pretentious, proselytizing pornography: Ginsberg
of
> an incense-burning, pseudo-Whitmanesque sort, Burroughs of a much grittier,
> sadomasochistic variety. There are few poems by Ginsberg that could be quoted
> whole in this newspaper; I doubt whether any page of "Naked Lunch,"
Burroughs's
> celebrated 1959 fantasy about a violent, drugridden sexual underworld, could
> be. A generous person might be tempted to describe the accumulated literary
> value of both writers as null. But that would be grossly unfair to nullity.
The
> poet Edith Sitwell came closer to the truth when she described "Naked Lunch"
as
> "psychopathological filth."
> How, then, can we explain the extent to which Ginsberg and Burroughs
have been
> lionized by the media and the academic literary establishment? Anyone who read
> the obituaries these men received-especially Ginsberg, who got lavish,
> front-page treatment almost everywhere-might be tricked into thinking that
they
> were important literary figures. In the early 1990s, Stanford University paid
> $1 million for Ginsberg's papers. His works are published by prestigious
houses
> and are studied in classrooms across the country. Ditto for Burroughs. The
word
> "genius" is routinely applied to both. So is "transgressive"--a term that,
> tellingly, has emerged as a favorite word of praise among addicts of the
> "cutting edge."
> I agree that Ginsberg and Burroughs were "transgressive." But is that a
good
> thing? After all, Saddam Hussein is "transgressire" too. The obituary of
> Burroroughs in The New York Times informed readers that "he spent years
> experimenting with drugs as well as with sex, which he engaged in with men,
> women, and children." Note the word "experimenting," as if Burroughs were
> engaged in some sort of of scientific inquiry rather than straight-foraward
> abuse of hard drugs and sordid sexual debauchery.
> Burroughs committed his most clearly transgressive act in Mexico in
1951.
> Although predominantly homosexual, he had married and fathered a son. Drunk at
> a party, he took out a handgun and announced to his wife that it was time for
> their William Tell act. When he tried to shoot a glass off her head, he missed
> and killed her. As one obituary put it, "the circumstances of the killing were
> never fully investigated, and Burroughs fled Mexico City for South America
> rather than stand trial."
> Burroughs is often praised for his "humor." But as far as I can tell,
there is
> only one genuinely funny sentence in "Naked Lunch," and its humor is
> inadvertent. "Certain passages in the book that have been called
pornographic,"
> Burroughs wrote in a preface, "were written as a tract against Capital
> Punishment in the manner of Jonathan Swift's 'Modest Proposal.'"
> Burroughs wasn't alone in invoking the author of "Gulliver's Travels."
> Burroughs's fellow Beat writer Jack Kerouac wrote that his friend was "the
> greatest satirical writer since Jonathan Swift." In 1963, the critic and
> novelist Mary McCarthy solemnly said there were "many points of comparison"
> between the two, and concluded that, "like a classical satirist, Burroughs is
> dead serious--a reformer."
> But McCarthy was wrong. Burroughs was not a reformer. Unlike Swift, he
had no
> ideal to oppose to the degradation his books depicted. On William Burroughs
the
> contrary, he was a cynical opportunist who realized that calling his work
> "satire" could help exempt it from legal action. An obituary in The Village
> Voice described Burroughs as "utterly paranoid and utterly moral." That is
> exactly half right.
> It is significant that the careers of both Ginsberg and Burroughs began
with an
> obscenity trial, Ginsberg with "'Howl" in 1957, Burroughs with "Naked Lunch"
in
> 1962. Ira Silverberg, a publicist for Burroughs, is quoted as saying that
> "William Burroughs opened the door for supporters of freedom of expression."
In
> fact, Burroughs helped open the door on the public acceptance and academic
> adulation of violent, dehumanizing pornography as a protected form of free
> speech.
> As Rochelle Gurstein pointed out in "The Repeal of Reticence," her
astute book
> about free speech and obscenity, "it is a sign of our time that this
ready-made
> plea for freedom of choice, and the dismissal of standards as a form of
> cultural imperialism, is automatically offered not only on behalf of
commercial
> entertainment but also for obscene art and pornography."
> As Ms. Gurstein shows, it was not until the 1950s that the question of
> obscenity was cast as a First Amendment issue. Until then, free speech had
been
> explicitly excluded by the courts as a defense for trafficking in obscene
> materials. The problem was not defining obscenity--about which there was wide
> agreement--but in assessing the degree of public harm the circulation of
> certain materials might be expected to cause. "Obscenity was successfully
> regulated," she notes, "because there was broad consensus about indecency,
> rooted in the old standards of the reticent sensibility."
> That consensus has long since dissolved, along with the moral
sensibility that
> supported it. In this sense, Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs. and the rest
of
> the Beats really do mark an important moment in American culture, not as one
of
> its achievements, but as a grievous example of its degeneration. The Village
> Voice observed that, when it came to appreciating his nihilism, "the culture
> had finally caught up with" Burroughs. Sadly, that couldn't be more accurate.
>
> Mr. Kimball is managing editor of The New Criterion.
>
>THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.
>
>Peter R. Kann Kenneth L. Burenga
>Chairman & Publisher President
>
>Paul E. Steiger Robert L. Bartley
>Managing Editor Editor
>Byron E. Calame Daniel Hemfinger
>Daniel Hertzberg Deputy Editor,
>Deputy Managing Editors Editorial Page
>
> Vice Presidents
>Danforth W. Austin General Manager
>Paul C. Atkinson AdVertising
>William E. Casey Jr. Circulation
>Michael F. Sheehan Production
>Charles F. Russell Technology
>F, Thomas Kull Jr. Operations
>
>Published since 1889 by
>
>DOWJONES & COMPANY
>
>Peter R. Kann, Chairman & Chief Executive Officer; Kenneth L. Burenga,
President
> & Chief Operating
>Officer; CEO, Dew Jones Markets.
>Senior Vice Presidents: James H. Oftaway Jr.,
>Chairman, Ottaway Newspapers, President,
>Magazines; Peter G. Skinner, General Counsel,
>President, Television; Carl M. Valenti, Teetmology &
>Affiliates, President/Publisher, Newswires.
>Vice Presidents/Operating Groups: Karen Elliott House, President,
International;
> Dorothea Cocoeli Palshe, President, Interactive Publishing.
>
>Vice Presidents: Kevin J. Roehe, Chief Financial Officer; Julian B. Childs,
> Markets; Paul J. Ingrassia, Richard J. Levino, Newswires; James A. Scaduto,
> Employee Relations; David E. Moran, Law.
>
>EDITORIAL AND CORPORATE HEADQUARTEES: 200 Liberty
>Street, New York, N.Y. 10281. Telephone (212) 416-2000.
>SUBSCRIPTION SERVICES: Call 1-800-JOURNAL, or see
>
>
>
<center>--------------------------------------------------
Greg Elwell
elwellg@voicenet.com || elwellgr@juno.com
<<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>
</center> --------------------------------------------------