=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:55:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles

MIME-Version: 1.0

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<<ahem>> and we could all use a good editor too...

 

not the new york times ..... but the Wall Street Journal

 

sorry to waste bandwidth on the correction.  Douglas

 

>----------

>From:  Penn, Douglas, K

>Sent:  Tuesday, August 12, 1997 9:29 AM

>To:    BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:       RE: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles

> 

> 

>and it goes to show that if you can't keep a good dog down in life, you sure

>can kick em a few times in death.  fuck the new york times.

> 

>Douglas

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:54:39 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97

In-Reply-To:  <970812013625_1848781656@emout01.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 01.36 12/08/97 -0400,

Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM> wrote:

>In a message dated 97-08-12 01:01:05 EDT, you write:

> 

><<  WSB:  Well, you'll notice more subdivisions now  as it's modernized

> > and is no longer cheap

> 

> Sharp as a razor. >>

> 

>In every direction we look....

> 

>C.Plymell

> 

        ENTIA NON SUNT MULTIPLICANDA

        PRAETER NECESSITATEM...

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:12:47 -0700

Reply-To:     "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: who's who?

Comments: To: "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:55 AM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote:

>I'm still working on "On the Road," and have a character question.

>Don't jump all over me for this...if it screams ignorance...chalk it up

>to unfamiliarity. Who is Remi...and subsequently Lee Ann?

> 

>-shannon

> 

> 

 

Henri Cru, as I recall, friend of kerouac from Horace Mann prep school.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 10:25:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97

Comments: To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Rinaldo, you are such a tease.  Somebody please translate?

 

Douglas

>----------

>From:  Rinaldo Rasa[SMTP:rinaldo@GPNET.IT]

>Sent:  Tuesday, August 12, 1997 9:54 AM

>To:    BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:       Re: (FWD) q: ranaldo & a: burroughs, 9 april 97

> 

>        ENTIA NON SUNT MULTIPLICANDA

>        PRAETER NECESSITATEM...

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:48:57 -0600

Reply-To:     Sorted <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sorted <junky@BURROUGHS.NET>

Subject:      burroughs.net, asking permissions, possibly some other meanderings

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

to whom it may concern,

 

i've shut down burroughs.net indefinitely...in its place is a photo of wsb

with the dreamachine, his dates on this planet, and a link to some site

info...site info is two short paragraphs as to what's going on, a short

list of other burroughs sites (Levi's, Luke's, Malcolm's, and Critter's),

as well as what i'm hoping is a pretty complete index of the recent news

articles on his death, and another index of the tribute and memorial sites

popping up...@

http://www.burroughs.net/

...his death has not really hit me yet, i think. i felt a need to shut down

the site, and i feel as if the last week+ has been spent on some mutated

form of acid, what with all the event cracking my head open across that

time, there's no other possible explanation other than this is just not

real.

but of course, it is....

 

One thing i have been thinking about recently is possibly taking the posts

to this list about WSB's death and influence and archiving them on

burroughs.net, sort of a memorial of my own, wanting to show what he and

his work meant to so many people...please let me know what you all think

about this...

(and, maybe to ease some minds, i make no money from this site...been

running it for over two years and not made one dime, in fact lost a bunch

of $ when i registered the domain...so for those suspecting me of

profiting, nah. i just love the man and his work. maybe this whole

paragraph was unnecessary; maybe not.)

Seeing as this has to do with almost all of you, i'd appreciate as many

responses as i can get, either privately or over the list. I really would

like to do this, but i won't go ahead without talking to you first...

 

thanks,

 

-zach.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:58:16 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      FDA

 

Next thing you know they'll try to regulate sperm.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 18:28:32 +0000

Reply-To:     letabor@cruzio.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <letabor@mail.cruzio.com>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs Obit

 

Date sent:        Tue, 12 Aug 1997 09:22:24 -0700

From:             Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>

To:               "BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

 

hmmm. No one offering to translate this interesting obit from Der

Spiegel?

Well, my credentials to attempt it ain't exactly impeccable.

Sure,learning wasintense when you were trying to figure out what the Waffen SS

 men were saying was

Waffen SS men were saying to each other. Subsequent living in Muenchen for half

 a year helped,

especially the loving attention of Herma "dein Munchener kindl" in the

only language she knew helped broaden content and style. My new friend

old Herr Doctor Karl Hagenmueller helped with pointers about grammar

etc, but that was over fifty years ago, and soon forgotten. Never did

bother to get a german dictionary since, but I did get the gist of

it. Amazing how things come back. I thought some of you would like to

get a look at what Der Spiegel had to say. If you are curious and not too

worried about total accuracy, read on.

 

Words that I knew stomped me I enclosed in brackets followed by a ?. The

writer of the obit is not identified.

 

Here it goes:

 

OBITUARY

 

William S. Burroughs

 

Naturally one could talk with Bill Burroughs about literature, as well

as about polishing of furniture, or pop music, because he was a

gracious person. His shuffling, monotonous voice betrayed a cultivated

disinterest. But when the conversation turned to weapons, it took on

color.

 

Then it became clear: not a doyen of the american underground, or

head of the punks, or member of the respected academy, but Marshall in

Dodge City - that would well have been his darling role. That or the

scoundrel at the other end of the street. Drawing the line between good

and bad didn't interest him particularly. Presence of wit, that's what it came

 to for him.

 

William S. Burroughs knew how to pick up (?) unique (?) illusionless

qualities. "I could always take up(?) with doc Holliday", he

said at a shooting practice at his ranch in Kansas. (??)

 

Bill Burroughs, the farthest out avant-garde that american literature

produced in this century, was at the same time as american as

cornflakes. He was a member of the arch reactionary "National Rifle

Association" and felt comfortable under the rednecks in Kansas, where he

died last week at age 83 of heart failure.

 

He knew the myths and legends about the o.k. corral inside out, and

before he was inducted in the temple and seminar halls of literary

scholarship, he resided in the cosmos of the penny notebooks. He was

Harvard reared with a passion for the trivial. The crownprince of an

industrial family, who was at home in the fixers (junkies?) scenes of

New Orleans, London and Tanger. He was a remarkable buttoned up traveller with a

 love

for dirt and trash of all kinds. THe was also gay. Basically

Burroghs was the nightmare of american society - because he came from

its innermost midst.

 

He functioned as a stranger in the beatnik circles around Ginsberg and

Kerouac, whom he got to know in the middle of the forties. There is

hardly a photo of these early years in which he smiles, and so his face

remained a shocked  Buster-Keaton look at

the bad play of the century.  He was married twice. His

first wife was a german jewish woman, whom he enabled to emigrate

through the marriage. The second wife he shot during a drug party. It

could never be clarified without a doubt whether the accident was in

fact an accident. Shortly after the deed Burroughs gave a deposition

(testimony? confession?)  which he later retracted.

 

Still, the scandal lent him a sinister luster, which later made him a black

romantic pop-icon: He was the writer outlaw, the pistol hero with a

typewriter, who didn't worry particularly over the laws, whether they

applied to life or to literature.

 

Already as a youth Burroughs dreamt about a literary career for

absolutely nonliterary reasons. He wanted to write, "because writers

were rich and famous, hung around in Singapore and Rangoon, wore yellow

silk suits, smoked opium or hashish in the native quarters of Tangier and

patted a tame gazelle".

 

He got it, the drugs and the gazelles and later the fame and riches, but

it was a long road to that, and his sheer longevity belongs to his most

amazing achievements. For decades he hung on the needle, he climbed

out and got back in and back out and back into other drugs, and he

(strapazierte)? (punished)? his body to the limit. Yet when he died he

had outlived most of his fellow treavelers, Ginsberg and Neal Cassady and

 Timothy

Leary and Kerouac anyway.

 

His debut novel "Junkie" which appeared 1953 as a cheap paperback, a

book about the logistics of the scoring of drugs, the horror of cold

withdrawals, was his most readable book. Still he became famous through

the phantasmagories from "Naked Lunch" (1959), that obscene,

halucinogenic penny novel about Dr. "Fingers" Schafer, "Lobotomy Kid"

and William Lee, that is at the same time a satire of society gone

too far.

 

About the invention of the famous cut-up method that was employed

in it for the first time, there are various versions in circulation,

and one of these, not the least likely, is banal. In drugged dimness, in

the middle of strewn about manuscript pages, in a hotel room he supposedly was

 staring

at his feet, when Ginsburg dusted those up and stapled the unsorted

texts together.  Later Burroughs found the accidental sort most highly

interesting. Thereupon he cut the pages and put them together anew.

 

"Naked Lunch" became subject to scandal because of its pornographic

passages, and because of its neologisms and Hieronymus-Bosch-visions it

became a quarry for pop groups, who borrowed their

names from it and from following novels, "Steely Dan" or "Soft Machine",

and other groups named their music "Heavy Metal".

 

Still, Burroghs hardly interested himself in the entire Rock theater. He

was no world improver like Ginzberg, no dionysian visionary like

Kerouac. Deep inside he held the Beatnik-pose and the following

Pop-pretense good for kid stuff..

 

He lived his last years disciplined. He got up early, fed the cats,

wrote. He never took the first vodka before four o'clock in the

afternoon. Now and then he visited his old weapons-brother Fred, to

shoot.

 

He was the Deputy Marshall, and he held up a long time, until in

the end it caught him (?).

 

DER SPIEGEL 33/1997

Well, I did give it a try.

 

leon

 

 

 

> Date:          Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:18:05 EDT

> Reply-to:      Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> From:          Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Organization:  Brooklyn College Library

> Subject:       Burroughs Obit

> To:            BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

 

> Attached is a Burroughs obit from this week's German magazine, Der

> Spiegel. (http://www.spiegel.de)  I replaced the umlauted letters by

> ae, oe, ue, etc. to make it readable.

> 

> Fred

> 

> 

> 

> 

> NACHRUF

> 

> William S. Burroughs

> 

> 1914 bis 1997

> 

> Natuerlich konnte man mit Bill Burroughs auch ueber Literatur

> reden oder ueber Moebelpolitur oder Popmusik, denn er war ein

> hoeflicher Mensch. Seine schleppende, monotone Stimme verriet

> kultiviertes Desinteresse. Doch wenn das Gespraech auf Waffen

> kam, gewann sie an Farbe.

> 

> Dann wurde klar: Nicht Doyen des amerikanischen Underground oder

> Pate des Punks oder respektiertes Akademie-Mitglied, sondern

> Marshall in Dodge City - das waere wohl seine Lieblingsrolle

> gewesen. Das oder der Schurke am anderen Strassenende. Die

> Grenzen zwischen Gut und Boese haben ihn ohnehin nie sonderlich

> interessiert. Geistesgegenwart, darauf kam es ihm an.

> 

> William S. Burroughs wusste die eigenen Qualitaeten illusionslos

> einzuschaetzen. "Mit Doc Holliday koennte ich es noch allemal

> aufnehmen", sagte er bei einer Probeschiesserei auf seiner Ranch

> in Kansas.

> 

> Bill Burroughs, die aeusserste Avantgarde, die sich die

> amerikanische Literatur in diesem Jahrhundert leistete, war

> gleichzeitig so amerikanisch wie Cornflakes. Er war Mitglied der

> erzreaktionaeren "National Rifle Association" und fuehlte sich

> wohl unter den Rednecks in Kansas, wo er vorvergangene Woche

> 83jaehrig an Herzversagen starb.

> 

> Er kannte die Mythen und Legenden um den O. K. Corral in- und

> auswendig, und bevor er in die Tempel und Seminarraeume der

> Literaturwissenschaftler einzog, bewohnte er den Kosmos der

> Groschenhefte. Er war der Harvard-Zoegling mit Leidenschaft fuer

> das Triviale. Der Kronprinz einer Industriellenfamilie, der in

> den Fixerszenen von New Orleans, London und Tanger zu Hause war.

> Er war ein merkwuerdig zugeknoepfter Reisender mit der Vorliebe

> fuer Schmutz und Schund aller Art. Zudem war er schwul. Im Grunde

> war Burroughs der Alptraum der amerikanischen Gesellschaft - weil

> er aus ihrer innersten Mitte stammte.

> 

> In den Beatnik-Zirkeln um Ginsberg und Kerouac, die er Mitte der

> vierziger Jahre kennenlernte, wirkte er wie ein Fremder. Es gibt

> selbst in diesen fruehen Jahren kaum ein Foto, auf dem er

> laechelt - und so blieb sein Gesicht eine unerschuetterliche

> Buster-Keaton-Miene zum boesen Spiel des Jahrhunderts. Er

> heiratete zweimal. Die erste Frau war eine deutsche Juedin, der

> er mit der Ehe die Einwanderung ermoeglichte. Die zweite Frau

> erschoss er waehrend einer drogenberauschten Party. Restlos

> konnte nie geklaert werden, ob der Unfall tatsaechlich ein Unfall

> war. Burroughs gab kurz nach der Tat ein Gestaendnis ab, das er

> spaeter widerrief.

> 

> Der Skandal jedoch verlieh ihm jenen duesteren Glanz, der ihn

> spaeter zur schwarzromantischen Pop-Ikone machte: Er war der

> schriftstellernde Outlaw, der Revolverheld mit der

> Schreibmaschine, der sich um die Gesetze nicht sonderlich

> kuemmerte, weder um die des Lebens noch um die der Literatur.

> 

> Schon als Junge hatte Burroughs von einer literarischen Karriere

> aus absolut ausserliterarischen Gruenden getraeumt. Er wollte

> schreiben, "weil Schriftsteller reich und beruehmt waren, in

> Singapur und Rangun herumhingen, gelbe Seidenanzuege trugen und

> Opium rauchten oder Haschisch in den Vierteln der Einheimischen

> von Tanger und dabei eine zahme Gazelle streichelten".

> 

> Er hat es gehabt, das Rauschgift und die Gazellen und spaeter den

> Ruhm und den Reichtum, doch es war ein langer Weg dahin, und zu

> den erstaunlichsten Leistungen Burroughs' gehoert wohl seine

> schiere Langlebigkeit. Jahrzehntelang hing er an der Nadel, er

> stieg aus und wieder ein und wieder aus und stieg um auf andere

> Drogen und strapazierte seinen Koerper bis an die Grenze. Doch

> als er starb, hatte er die meisten seiner Weggefaehrten

> ueberlebt, Ginsberg und Neal Cassady und Timothy Leary und

> Kerouac sowieso.

> 

> Sein Debuet-Roman "Junkie" erschien 1953 als billiges Paperback,

> ein Hoellenbuch ueber die Logistik der Drogenbeschaffung, den

> Horror der kalten Entzuege, wohl sein lesbarstes Buch. Beruehmt

> wurde er jedoch durch die Phantasmagorien aus "Naked Lunch"

> (1959), diesem obszoenen, halluzinogenen Groschenroman um Dr.

> "Fingers" Schafer, "Lobotomy Kid" und William Lee, der zugleich

> eine ueberbordende Gesellschaftssatire ist.

> 

> Ueber die Erfindung der darin zum ersten Male angewandten

> beruehmten Cut-up-Methode sind verschiedene Versionen im Umlauf,

> und eine davon, nicht die unwahrscheinlichste, ist banal. Im

> Drogendaemmer, inmitten zerfledderter Manuskriptseiten, soll er

> in einem Hotelzimmer auf seine Fuesse gestarrt haben, als

> Ginsberg ihn aufstoeberte und die Texte wahllos zusammenstapelte.

> Spaeter fand Burroughs die Zufallsreihung hoechst interessant.

> Daraufhin zerschnitt er die Seiten und puzzelte sie neu zusammen.

> 

> "Naked Lunch" wurde wegen seiner pornographischen Passagen zum

> Skandalerfolg und wegen seiner Neologismen und

> Hieronymus-Bosch-Visionen zum Steinbruch fuer Popgruppen, die aus

> ihm und den Folgeromanen ihre Namen entliehen, "Steely Dan" oder

> "Soft Machine", und andere Gruppen nannten ihre Musik "Heavy

> Metal".

> 

> Doch Burroughs interessierte sich kaum fuer das ganze

> Rocktheater. Er war kein Weltverbesserer wie Ginsberg, kein

> dionysischer Schwaermer wie Kerouac. Tief im Innersten hielt er

> die Beatnik-Pose und das nachfolgende Pop-Getue wohl fuer

> Kinderkram.

> 

> Seine letzten Jahre lebte er diszipliniert. Er stand frueh auf,

> fuetterte die Katzen, schrieb. Den ersten Wodka genehmigte er

> sich nie vor vier Uhr nachmittags. Ab und zu besuchte er seinen

> alten Waffenbruder Fred, um zu schiessen.

> 

> Er war der Deputy-Marshall, und er hat sich lang gehalten, bis es

> ihn endlich doch noch erwischte.

> 

> DER SPIEGEL 33/1997

>  -

> 

> 

> 

Leon Tabory

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:47:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Village Voice obit.

 

Reply to message from WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET of Mon, 11 Aug

> 

>This week's issue of the Voice carried a full page obit on Burroughs

>with articles by David Ulin and C. (I assume Lucien's son Caleb) Carr.

 

 

I was just flipping through teh issue with the Ginsberg memorial stories &

also noticed an article by this C. Carr....& wondered if he (or she?) was

related to Lucien.

 

Diane.

 

--

                Diane M. Homza <---Professional Rebound Girl!

2 Years Experience; References Are Avaliable!   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

"I can't imagine how I ever thought my love might make a difference to him."

                --Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 22:13:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Was Burroughs really a beat writer?

In-Reply-To:  <9708121837.aa12617@mail.cruzio.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Heard an interesting argument recently in discussions about Burroughs

life.  It was argued that Bill Burroughs was not really a beat writer.

Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg and most of the other beat writers, saw

their literary efforts as part of a religious mission, a search for faith

as it were.  Most of them were into eastern religions and philosphies and

the ideas of finding peace in mind spirit, and soul.

 

Bill Burroughs hadno such mission in his writings, he was totally anti-

religion, anti-society, anti-everything.  Burroughs, it is argued, was

not idealistic, had no hopes of changing the world or acheiving greater

purposes with his writing.

 

He was a total libertarian who had no use for most people, and for muchof

the world.  Kerouac was an explorer, he traveled to experience and to

write about his experiences.  Burroughs traveled to find drugs so he

could escape from the world, NOT write about it.  Jack Kerouac dreamed of

his hometown and yearned to find new ways to write about and understand

his past.  Burroughs lived in exile most of his life, desperately trying

to convince himself that the world he knew knew outside of Tangier, or

wherever he was living, didnt exsist.

 

Burroughs was a great writer, therefore, but has he been inaccurately

cast as a beat writer because of his friendship with Kerouac and Allen

Ginsberg?

 

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:19:09 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Bill faces judgement

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

At least the Wall Street Journal article tried to be funny

("an insult to nullity" ... yeah, yeah).  Really, it's

their job to insult people like Burroughs, and I'm only

glad the Wall Street Journal didn't suddenly decide to

embrace Burroughs and call him a genius.  Then I'd really

worry.  Like when Bill Gates suddenly embraces Microsoft.

I prefer to see my adversaries standing across the street,

not to feel their arms around my back.

 

Here are two more "tributes" to Burroughs, one from

the Black Mountain poet Robert Creeley, who's now teaching

at SUNY Buffalo, and one from Carolyn Cassady, the longtime

wife of Neal and frequent Kerouac fictional character.

I emailed both of them asking for spontaneous tributes,

so don't blame them if you don't like their words, blame

me, because I'm the one who asked!

 

I also wrote to a few other people who were likely to

have interesting memories  ... if more write back, I'll keep

posting them.

 

This is what Robert Creeley wrote back:

 

****************************************************************

 

"Here's a brief sense of what I quickly remember apropos

Bill Burroughs.  I can't now recall just who had told me -- like

peripheral gossip -- but sometime in the early '50s I heard of someone

who'd written a 1000 plus page ms with the only objective action being a

neon sign going off/on over a store one could see (in the novel) across

the street, etc, and of someone else who had killed his wife

acidentally, attempting to shoot a glass off her head with gun he said

later characteristically undershot.  That was Kerouac and Bill Burroughs

respectively, though for a time I reversed them not yet knowing either.

In SF in the mid-fifties, and meeting (though he said we'd met briefly

in '49) Allen, he gave me the Yage ms to read, which fsscinated me --

and you'll know I printed "from Naked Lunch, Book III" in the Black

Mountain Review No. 7 (last issue with Allen a contributing editor and

stuff from Jack, Edward Marshall's great poem "Leave the Word Alone."

Cubby Selby, Phil Whalen, Gary Snyder, Mike McClure, Joel Oppenheimer,

WC Williams, Ed Dorn, Edward Dahlberg, Zukofsky, Denise Levertov --

etc.)  I was also fellow contributor for the Big Table business -- and I

remember writing a statement in support when Naked Lunch was to be

published by Grove.

 

We didn't meet, however, untl some years later, must have been at least

the mid-sixties, when he was living in London and I was there for

something or other, and John and Bettina Calder had a party variously

honoring various writers, particularly Burroughs.  We were both John's

"authors" at that point and I was staying with the Calders.  Alex

Trocchi was a good friend and he too was much involved.  Anyhow I

remember making the classic gauche comment when we're introduced, saying

I was stunned with the pleasure of being able to say how much I

respected his work etc etc, and then stumbling on to ask whether or no

he was thinking to stay in London, etc etc -- to all of which he replied

briefly, dryly, yes, no -- etc.  In confusion I grabbed Ed Dorn who was

there, and pulled him over to introduce him. Instantly Burroughs

brightened, asking Ed about a recent piece of Ed's in the Paris Review

-- and how he'd managed the montage, etc.  In short, this was work and

had substance -- not just banal social blather.

 

Thankfully I saw him again quite frequently over the years, and got past

my school boy admiration (though never entirely).  Anyhow we'd meet most

frequently on the road and I liked his droll humor and clarity, call it,

always.  One time after a talk at Naropa wherein he had recounted his

experiences with a device he'd assembled permitting one to track by

thought "traces" or manifests of the physical entiry itself (he said

he'd found one of his cats who'd got lost), he was bemused that none of

the young had asked afterwards how to actually make the device, despite

he had emphasized that all the necessary components could be got at any

place like Radio Shack. Where's their curiousity, was the question.

Another time, when mutual friends were sitting around him in sad

depression over fact of an impending death much affecting him, as I came

in, I am convinced he looked up and winked at me -- certainly a

communication, like they say.

 

I've always thought of him as a literalist, as I think I was -- saying

what he felt, understood, recognized, respected, abhorred, in very

literal terms, including the fantasies.  Thinking of an early common

interest in Korzybski, the non-Aristotelian sense of "meaning" and

syntax, his use of cut-up was very practical and effective.  It broke

the classic "order" or narative as simply a "cause and

effect,""historically" ordered sequence.  I'd already connected with

Celine, for example, and Burroughs was the solid next step.

 

I'd get occasional Xmas cards I am sure James Grauerholtz helped get in

the mail -- I am grateful Bill Burroughs knew I cared, like they say.

He was the impeccable "lone telegraph operator," as he put it. He got a

lot done for us all."

 

(Robert Creeley)

 

****************************************************************

 

   And now for a dissenting opinion, here's what Carolyn Cassady

   (of Neal and Carolyn/"Off The Road" fame) wrote.   I hope

   it doesn't seem she's being disrespectful of Burroughs here,

   rather she's speaking her mind because I asked her for her

   honest thoughts, not just an empty polite tribute.

 

****************************************************************

 

"Trouble is, I don't feel like any "tribute" to BB.  As I

wrote, he didn't want to know me nor I him.  He represented all

that I think negative and counter-poductive, if not downright destructive in

human life and the antithesis of what I believe we should all be about. I

felt somewhat better about him when the TV interviewer asked him if there was

anything in his life he regretted.  Bill's reply was "Are your kidding? Everyt

hing!"  I wanted to say, well, duh--I coulda told you so.  "Wise men learn

from the experience of others; fools from their own".  I know, there's this

theory that in order to appreciate the heights, you have to know the depths,

but I don't agree.  I have much to learn, but I don't think his way would be

rewarding.  So, sorry, Levi,--but lemme know if we scored on this.

Cheers, CC"

 

(Carolyn Cassady)

 

****************************************************************

 

(And now, if anybody out there is in touch with Gary Snyder,

could you please go nudge him and tell him to write back too?)

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:22:02 -0700

Reply-To:     Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Bill faces judgement (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I wrote (2 seconds ago)

 

> At least the Wall Street Journal article tried to be funny

> ("an insult to nullity" ... yeah, yeah).  Really, it's

> their job to insult people like Burroughs, and I'm only

> glad the Wall Street Journal didn't suddenly decide to

> embrace Burroughs and call him a genius.  Then I'd really

> worry.  Like when Bill Gates suddenly embraces Microsoft.

> I prefer to see my adversaries standing across the street,

 

Oops, obviously I meant "embraces Apple" -- see, I'm

totally confused already ...

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:30:58 -0500

Reply-To:     jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Luther Allison

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Luther Allison died today, 08-12-97, in Madison, Wi.

 

j grant

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:35:12 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Church of St. John

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Beal-l folk looking for a more attractive religious organization might

be interested in the St. Johns African Orthodox Church in SF, since the

St. John is Coltrane.  Was going to post a reference to a story on this

unique church but got lazy and then the Burroughs death dominated

everyone's mind.  For a more complete report one could look up a story

that appeared in the SF Weekly for the week of July 23-39.  Services

with Coltrane's music held every Sunday and special services on the

anniversery of Coltrane's ascension. Any Coltrane fanatics out there

interested in a copy let me know.

 

J. Stauffer

 

I guess until we get a St. Williams, this will have to do.

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:40:32 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Luther Allison

Comments: To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

jo grant wrote:

> 

> Luther Allison died today, 08-12-97, in Madison, Wi.

> 

What a year.  Think I'll put on "Reckless".

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:23:03 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: message/rfc822

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Message-ID: <33F11A46.61A0@pacbell.net>

Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 19:21:58 -0700

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles

References: <c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970812162945Z-458@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Without a doubt the WSJ  piece was poorly thought and badly timed. As

someone who usually reads the WSJ editorial page I was appalled. But I

am still for free speech, even stupid speech. Good art always seems to

be able to outlast stupid criticism.  Such a tirade may even attract

readers for Ginsberg's and Burrough's work.  Think of what a

masterstroke of marketing the Howl obscenity trial was--no publisher

could or would have bought a poet that kind of a high profile.  Same was

true for Joyce and Lawrence.  Remember how delighted movie and book

distributors used to be when they were banned in Boston so that they

could splash "Banned in Boston" on a marquee or a book display?

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 21:48:06 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: Luther Allison

Comments: To: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

jo grant wrote:

> 

> Luther Allison died today, 08-12-97, in Madison, Wi.

> 

> j grant

who was Luther Allison? Pardon my ignorance.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 03:09:44 UT

Reply-To:     Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Luther Allison

 

Damn!!  is there anybody left?

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:47:23 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroughs really a beat writer?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970812220342.23103A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

When discussing this in the past and asked to name the big three, I always

said Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Corso.  Burroughs too, but always I list last

as he seemed to transcend beat.  He was beat and something more.  He, like

the others, sought to break literary and (insert conceptual term here)

boundaries, but only as a means to better communicate.  What he wanted to

communicate went above, beyond, and sideways to the others.  As beat as he

wanted to be, no more no less; but so much more.  Years from now when

post-modernism finally gets a real name and is figured out by academia so

they can teach about it Burroughs will be there just after the sophmores

finish their papers on Beckett.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:54:10 -0600

Reply-To:     stand666@bitstream.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject:      LUTHER ALLISON

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Thanks Jo for the post, and Bentz, James, Charles,

for your kindness. My father was with him earlier

yesterday, and called late last night. When the phone

rings after 3:00 A.M., you pretty much know what's

next. I've spent pretty much the whole day and evening

on my back steps playing bottleneck. There's a band shell

amphitheater 100 miles south of St Paul. It's a nice quiet

place that is no longer in use. I think I'll head down there

for a few days and play some slide. About a month ago I was

there and it had a beautiful sound bouncing off the walls. My

dad wants to give Luther a Scotish rites farewell with bagpipes

and drums. Play The Black Watch and Amazing Grace. You know,

Luther would probably get a bang out of that one. All these old

white guys from the Masonic Lodge, honoring him. Maybe there's

hope after all. It seems strange that my interview with Luther

would be his last. Alligator Records loved it, Pulse Magazine

prints it, and two days later he recieves a terminal diagnosis.

But the blues never dies. I'll be interviewing Homesick James for

Pulse. Homesick James is probably the last living link to Robert

Johnson. He is the same age as Burroughs: 83, born in 1914--and

he plays on a Fender Strat with Marshall Amp, slide, and all--

rocking the house!!! Now that's cool.

 

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:58:20 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Last look at Walgreens?

Comments: To: junky@burroughs.net

 

In a message dated 97-08-12 23:53:00 EDT, you write:

 

<< has been spent on some mutated

 form of acid, what with all the event cracking my head open across that

 time, there's no other possible explanation other than this is just not

 real.

 but of course, it is.... >>

 

Damn right. I caught that same "bug." Something did happen, I'dsay. I've been

through 'em before. I knew that old con man was gonna restonate the hell

outta things. "Look at these paintings, Charley; this is great art. See the

shapes of things that keep forming? I did.

 

You can have anything of mine. Sharing love for the old man is enough.

Tonight has been the first night I started to come off the "mutated acid"

jag. I wonder if Burroughs cut to another stratasphere, or is he peering

around  in a black hole looking for Huncke to ferret out  the scence?

C Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 01:33:27 -0400

Reply-To:     DawnDR@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Village Voice obit.

 

Just a response regarding the C.Carr whose byline appears in the voice.  That

is Lucien's son Caleb --- author of  THE ALIENIST (a very dark, literate and

engrossing novel ) -- as well as much other work.  I saw interviews with him

in '94?  when the novel was climbing up the bestseller lists.

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 05:41:14 -0400

Reply-To:     Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bill faces judgement (fwd)

Comments: To: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

No, you had it right.  Gates certainly embraced

Microsoft before Apple so you had it right.  I wish

the sledge thrower from the 84 macintosh intro

commercial by Ridley Scott, I wish some had had a

hammer to throw at Gates' massive TV head during the

Apple symposium in Boston, where Gates appeared as

a new "Big Brother."

 

Mike Rice

 

 

 

 

At 07:22 PM 8/12/97 -0700, you wrote:

>I wrote (2 seconds ago)

> 

>> At least the Wall Street Journal article tried to be funny

>> ("an insult to nullity" ... yeah, yeah).  Really, it's

>> their job to insult people like Burroughs, and I'm only

>> glad the Wall Street Journal didn't suddenly decide to

>> embrace Burroughs and call him a genius.  Then I'd really

>> worry.  Like when Bill Gates suddenly embraces Microsoft.

>> I prefer to see my adversaries standing across the street,

> 

>Oops, obviously I meant "embraces Apple" -- see, I'm

>totally confused already ...

> 

>------------------------------------------------------

>| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

>|                                                    |

>|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

>|     (3 years old and still running)                |

>|                                                    |

>|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

>|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

>|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

>|                                                    |

>|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

>|                                                    |

>|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

>|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

>------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:37:46 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: who's who?

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.91.970812085153.12553C-100000@baskerville.CS.Ar

              izona.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Shannon,

 

the writer Fernanda Pivano in the '60s was in correspondence

with Henri Cru (in OTR he is Remi Boncoeur),

 

exempli gratia:

#1

''Dear Miss Pivano, please permit me to introduce myself...

My name is Henry Cru and my best friend "Jack Kerouac"

sent ne the enclosed postal card on my trip around the

world. I am an electrician on the President Jackson and

we are scheduled to arrive in Genoa June sixt or possibly

a day or two later. In Jack's best selling novel On The

Road he named himself "Sal Paradise" and he called me

"Remi Bon Coeur". According to his card he wishes for me

to tell you that I am Remi and then he sent me. I have no

idea why he wants me to tell you this but knowing Jack as

I do he must have some kind of mystical reason. I would be

delighted to receive a card from you enlightening me to

Kerouac's motives. My very best wishes.''.

#2

"Dear Nanda & Ettore, I have been on the road ona on the

ocean for many years but when ''Mon Frere'' Jack Kerouac

forget about ''the Beatnik Generation'' and starts to

entertain notions of scraping all his nonsensical ideas

about non conformism and starts to formulatae a gospel that

will bring peace to this miserable world, peoples in every

land will find love and genuine kindness like I found in

this home where I was treated like a King... Merci du fond

de mon coeur. Henri Cru "Remi Bon Coeur" ''.

 

 

Henri Cru, (Remi Boncoeur) is very important &

Jack Kerouac devoted alot of pages about him  in "On the Road"

but Henri Cru is not mentioned in the Legend of Beat, why?

Boncoeur said "You can't teach the old maestro a new tone",

i consider the best motto in all OTR,

 

saluti

Rinaldo.

*

"Aaaaah Paradise, he comes in through the window,

he follows instructions to a T."---Remi Boncoeur in JK's OTR

*

 

At 08.55 12/08/97 -0700,

"Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote:

>I'm still working on "On the Road," and have a character question.

>Don't jump all over me for this...if it screams ignorance...chalk it up

>to unfamiliarity. Who is Remi...and subsequently Lee Ann?

> 

>-shannon

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:03:19 -0400

Reply-To:     Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Church of St. John

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

J.,

 

Resident Coltrane fanatic here. . .   what exactly are you offering copies

of?  I've seen the article you're talking about, and I must say that sounds

like the coolest place in the world.  I just hope one of these days I'll

make it to San Francisco to experience it personally.

 

 

If you've got leads on any other obscure Coltrane info on the web shoot 'em

my way.  I surfed well into (probably a few thousand sites deep) the

altavista return for "Coltrane" and was pretty let down by the majority of

the tributes. . .

 

Best to you,

 

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:04:35 EDT

Reply-To:     Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Resent-From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

Comments:     Originally-From: Matthias_Schneider

              <magrobi@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

From:         Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Help! I am looking for an citation by Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi folks!

I am working at a thesis on  Contemporary American Literature, and I have

once heard a citation by Ginsberg of which I have lost the source.

It=B4s about his attitude about literature which he considers as  something

like leaving traces that can be followed and by this have to be

interpreteted and even translated .

Any  idea?

Thanks,

M. Schneider (Berlin)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:40:21 EDT

Reply-To:     Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Resent-From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

Comments:     Originally-From: Ddrooy@aol.com

From:         Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Help! I am looking for an citation by Ginsberg

Comments: To: Bill Gargan <wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

 

This isn't the citation, but it does have the essence of the citation, one

thing leading into another... and you may yet find it useful to your work:

..............................................................................

.....

In 1948 I had some kind of break in the normal modality of my consciousness.

While alone living a relatively solitary vegetarian contemplative life,

reading St. John of the Cross, Plotinus some, notions of "alone with the

Alone," or "one hand clapping," or The Cloud of Unknowing, or Plato's

Phaedrus, and William Blake, I had what was--for me--an extraordinary break

in the normal nature of my thought when something opened up.

 

I had finished masturbating, actually, on the sixth floor of a Harlem

tenement on 121st Street looking out at the roofs while reading Blake, back

and forth, and suddenly had a kind of auditory hallucination, hearing

Blake-what I thought was his voice, very deep, earthen tone, not very far

from my own mature tone of voice, so perhaps a projection of my own latent

physiology-reciting a poem called "The Sunflower," which I thought expressed

some kind of universal longing for union with some infinite nature. The poem

goes, "Ah, Sunflower/Weary of time/Who counteth the steps of the sun/Seeking

after that sweet golden clime where the traveler's journey is done/Where the

youth pined away with desire/And the pale virgin shrouded with snow/Arise

from their graves and aspire where my sunflower wishes to go."

 

I can't interpret it exactly now, but the impression that I had at the time

was of some infinite yearning for the infinite, finally realized, and I

looked out the window and began to notice the extraordinary detail of

intelligent labor that had gone into the making of the rooftop cornices of

the Harlem buildings. And I suddenly realized that the world was, in a sense,

not dead matter, but an increment or deposit of living intelligence and

action and activity that finally took form-the Italian laborers of 1890 and

1910, making very fine copper work and roofcomb ornament as you find along

the older tenement apartment buildings.

 

And as I looked at the sky I wondered what kind of intelligence had made that

vastness, or what was the nature of the intelligence that I was glimpsing,

and felt a sense of vastness and of coming home to a space I hadn't realized

was there before but which seemed old and infinite, like the ancient of Days,

so to speak.

 

But I had no training in anything but Western notions and didn't know how to

find a vocabulary for the experience, so I thought I had seen "God" or

"Light" or some western notion of a theistic center, or that was the

impression at the time.

..........................................................................

Here's the link to the entire interview:  <A HREF="http://www.shambhalasun.com

/ginsberg.html">The Spiritual Biography of Allen Ginsberg</A>

 

Good luck.

 

Diane De Rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 10:29:49 EST

Reply-To:     DUST MY BROOM <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         DUST MY BROOM <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Kesey schedule, attention Canadians

 

Just a reminder to check the schedule of Kesey and his Pranksters as the bus

heads east and north once again on the Grandfurthur II Tour. If I remember, he

is making some stops in Canada. Click on the GRAND FURTHUR II Tour via

WWW.INTREPIDTRIPS.COM

 

They may be coming soon to a town near you!

 

Dave B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:48:06 EDT

Reply-To:     Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Organization: Brooklyn College Library

Subject:      ANother German Burroughs obit

 

Sueddeutsche Zeitung (Munich) August 4, 1997

 

Bill the Ripper

 

Zum Tod von Amerikas Saeulenheiligen

William S. Burroughs

 

Liebe Kinder, bitte nicht nachmachen!

Nach Augenzeugenberichten war es nur ein

Partyspiel. Aber weil zur Bowle Peyote

gereicht wurde und Marihuana, pflanzte

Burroughs seiner Frau einen Apfel auf

den Kopf, spielte Wilhelm Tell und

schoss. Der Apfel ueberstand das Spiel,

aber Joan Vollmer war auf der Stelle

tot. Halbwegs vernuenftige Menschen

wuerden jetzt das Fixen und Kiffen sein

lassen und nie wieder eine Waffe

anfassen, aber William Burroughs knallte

sich weiter rein, was an Halluzinogenen

zu kriegen war. In der Einleitung zum

Naked Lunch (1959) spricht er von einer

45 Jahre waehrenden Sucht; wer ihn

besuchte in den letzten Jahren, musste

mit ihm zuallererst auf Blechbuechsen

ballern. Der Mann war offensichtlich

verrueckt.

 

Oder Amerikaner. Da stand er 1990 auf

der Buehne des Thalia Theaters in Hamburg

neben Robert Wilson und Lou Reed, ein

hoffnungslos in seinem Buchhalteranzug

verschrumpfter Opa, zerknittert und bis

aufs feinste Knoechelchen entfleischt,

nicht mehr von dieser Welt, aber durch

saemtliche Formen geschritten, ein

Saeulenheiliger der Avantgarde, der alles

ueberlebt hatte. Aufgefuehrt wurde sein

Musical Black Rider, eine

Freischuetz-Geschichte -- und wieder eine

toedliche Kugel aus Liebe.

 

William Seward Burroughs, 1914 in St.

Louis als Fabrikantensohn geboren, war

nun wirklich fuer Besseres geboren. Wie

sein Landsmann T. S. Eliot ein

Vierteljahrhundert zuvor ging er nach

Harvard zum Studieren, dann nach Europa,

aber irgendwann drehte er durch und

machte seinen Unfrieden mit dem Alptraum

Amerika. Meldete sich eines schoenen

Tages beim FBI und wollte Geheimagent

werden. Sie lehnten ihn

vernuenftigerweise ab. Ersatzweise wurde

er rauschgiftsuechtig und lebte nun

selber in bestaendiger Furcht vor den

Haeschern. Einer wie Burroughs war

geboren fuer die Grosse Amerikanische

Paranoia.

 

Mit der Verbissenheit seiner Vorvaeter --

dieser Geldverdiener und sittenstrengen

Stuetzen der Gemeinde --, mit der gleichen

inbruenstigen Verbissenheit setzte sich

Burroughs jeder Sucht dieser irdischen

Welt aus, lungerte in Tanger herum, wo

er die Sonne nicht vertrug, schrieb,

obwohl er nicht wusste wie und wovon er

leben sollte, schrieb auf Entzug und im

Rausch, wie ein Suechtiger.

 

Sie sind ziemlich schwer zu lesen, seine

Buecher, cut up. Zerstueckelt habe er

seine Texte bis zur Unverstaendlichkeit,

immer neu zusammengefuegt und dabei

zerfleddert. Aber brauchte so viel

Wahnsinn ueberhaupt eine Methode? Sie

sollten "reines Fleisch" sein, schrieb

ihm sein Freund Allen Ginsberg ins Buch,

"ohne symbolische Sosse". Weh dem, der

Symbole sieht in seinen Tausendfuesslern,

Halbtieren und Dreiviertelmonstern!

Alles Fleisch vom Fleische Amerikas, die

schlichte Wahrheit, wie Burroughs sie

sah im Wahn. "Ich bin", versicherte er,

"ich bin nur ein Aufzeichnungsgeraet."

 

Roland Barthes harfte ausgiebig ueber den

Nullpunkt, an dem sich die Literatur um

1960 angeblich befand, aber Burroughs

beschrieb diesen Punkt nicht bloss,

sondern stach immer wieder hinein, nahm

sich staendig neue Proben ab, zerfetzte

sich und seine Texte. Der Dichter in

seiner besten Eigenschaft als Schlitzer.

Entziehungskuren mussten dann sein, mal

bei Dr. Wilhelm Reich, dann bei L. Ron

Hubbard, aber weder die Orgonmaschine

noch die Scientology halfen. Und so fand

er nach zwei Ehefrauen und einem Sohn

zurueck zu den Freuden der Jugend, zur

Erinnerung an die ersten verstohlenen

Griffe in die fremde Unterhose. Gegen so

viel Leben kommt das Werk nicht an,

schon allein, weil es nach den fruehen

Buechern Methode wurde. Aber: Von Velvet

Underground ueber Patti Smith bis Kurt

Cobain folgten sie ihm nach -- und war er

nicht ein Heiliger?

 

In New York verschanzte er sich in einem

Gelass in der Bowery, vierfach verriegelt

gegen die Penner und Junkies draussen,

die ihn, den alten gebrechlichen Mann,

vielleicht haetten ueberfallen koennen,

waehrend er sich drin, umgeben von

Stahlruten, Revolvern und Pornoheften,

ausmalte, wie es wohl war, von den

wilden Kerlen ueberfallen zu werden.

 

Zuletzt kehrte er zurueck in den

Mittleren Westen, zu seinen xenophoben,

dafuer gottesfuerchtigen Mitbuergern,

schiesswuetig wie sie und nicht weniger

paranoid. Sie wussten genau, dass die

Kommunisten (wahlweise die Juden, die

Katholiken) das Trinkwasser vergiftet

hatten oder der CIA das Aids-Virus

gezuechtet, um die ganze Menschheit

auszurotten. Burroughs sammelte all

diese Geschichten und bewegte sie in

seinem Herzen. Dann schoss er wieder auf

seine Blechbuechsen.

 

Aber bitte, liebe Kinder, nicht

nachmachen zu Hause! Am Samstag ist der

gute Amerikaner William S. Burroughs in

Lawrence (Kansas) im Alter von 83 Jahren

gestorben.

 

WILLI WINKLER

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:48:33 EDT

Reply-To:     Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Organization: Brooklyn College Library

Subject:      Oops

 

Sorry about that last post. I hit the wrong key too soon. It was a

Burroughs obit from the Munich paper, Sueddeutsche Zeitung. Thanks to Leon

for translating the other one, sorry I'm too lazy to do it myself. If

you want to do this one, too... :-)

 

 

Fred

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:29:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wall Street Journal 'n Fruity Pebbles

Comments: To: "stauffer@pacbell.net" <stauffer@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

James writ:

 

<< 

>But I

>am still for free speech, even stupid speech. Good art always seems to

>be able to outlast stupid criticism.  Such a tirade may even attract

>readers for Ginsberg's and Burrough's work.

>> 

 

good art,  <hm>....  Been talking backchannel about death and

aesthetics.  How death always wins over style and substance and whatnot.

 At least I'm assuming that's the end equation.  Can a writer/artist be

immortal?  That's the question.  Will the remaining works leave enough

of an impression to live forever?

 

And then we get talking about "art for art's" sake.  Yep, I'm a firm

believer in that; but I don't think it's unfair to also ask what *work*

does a piece do.  What *work*?  And not *if* it is art, but *when* is it

art?

 

driving into work today, thinking of all my old friends.  5 years oughta

college, 10 years oughta high school.  and all them before and since.

Promotion?  What is that dirty dog?  A:  It's an attitude I haven't

quite grasped yet.  The citation and linking of "new" and "cool" with a

person.  All these newspapers, all the television shows, all the fucking

middlemen mucking up the works, taking their 5-10%+.  Promotion taking

it's cut of the action.

 

PJ Harvey's "driving" pumping on the car stereo, waiting for the light

to change.  Attractive executive woman in a uptown car applies makeup.

Nerd boy to my right thinks about his code unraveling in various places.

 And where am I?  Who am I hustling today?

 

and death?  you wanna piece of me?  come and take it

 

>> J Stauffer

 

Douglas

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:35:51 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bill faces judgement (fwd)

Comments: To: mrice@centuryinter.net

 

In a message dated 97-08-13 12:20:02 EDT, you write:

 

<<  glad the Wall Street Journal didn't suddenly decide to

 >> embrace Burroughs and call him a ge >>

 

I'm with you there. Though, I think the writer was some of that new

merchandise who will never have that old spirit B talked about. That is

sad...for them .Oh Brave Newts.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:42:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Last look at Walgreens?

Comments: To: "CVEditions@AOL.COM" <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

C writ:

 

<< 

>I wonder if Burroughs cut to another stratasphere, or is he peering

>around  in a black hole looking for Huncke to ferret out  the scence?

>> 

 

and death as in life Charley Brown?  Interesting to read all these obits

and questions of beatness.  That Burroughs wasn't an optimist, wasn't

this and that compared to Kerouac and Ginsberg.  So he didn't care what

people thought?  Didn't care about this and that ideal?

 

and in death?  free of this mortal coil, so to speak, then what?  Maybe

he's living a completely different life now.  Am feeling poetic and

generally pissed off this morning.  I'll die a 1000 deaths and report

back later.

 

>> C Plymell

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 12:44:04 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Thanks Leon

 

Good shot at that translation.  My buddy Fred who posted it said that it would

be tough to translate because of slang.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:47:58 -0500

Reply-To:     Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      burroughs

Content-Type: text

 

Hello again.

I've been out of town for a few weeks and quit the list for that

period. I saw about Burroughs's passing in a newspaper.

Has anyone seen any comments from either Corso or Ferlinghetti on

his death? If so, could you let me know where you saw them by

contacting me on the list or privately.

Thanks. I appreciate it in advance.

Cordially,

Mike Skau

8/13/97

mskau@cwis.unomaha.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:36:01 EDT

Reply-To:     Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

 

I've had several requests to change the reply function on the list so

that all replies default to the list rather than the sender.  Since

traffic seems to have become more reasonable lately, I've asked Fred

Bogin to change the default tomorrow morning.  After this is done, your

reply will be sent directly to all list members.  Please keep this in

mind to avoid sending private messages out to the whole list.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:59:29 -0400

Reply-To:     Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>

Subject:      McCarthy Review of Naked Lunch Online

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The New York Book of Reviews has posted the entire content of the first

issue online, including the review of Naked Lunch by Mary McCarthy.

 

The url:  http://www.nybooks.com/nyrev/firstcontents.html

 

 

Enjoy!

 

Judith

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:04:12 -0700

Reply-To:     "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroughs really a beat writer?

Comments: To: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970812220342.23103A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> Heard an interesting argument recently in discussions about Burroughs

> life.  It was argued that Bill Burroughs was not really a beat writer.

> Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg and most of the other beat writers, saw

> their literary efforts as part of a religious mission, a search for faith

> as it were.  Most of them were into eastern religions and philosphies and

> the ideas of finding peace in mind spirit, and soul.

 

Oh, Burroughs was at least as religious as Kerouac, Ginsberg & Co. Ker and

Gins were more in the extroverted, extrojected Catholic or Tibetan

Buddhist line. Burr had religion, but it had no deity-object, no cathedral

(other tha, perhaps, the experiential soma), no Holy Book. He was in the

minimalist-to-negative-theology family of Zen, Nagarjuna, Pierre de

Caussade S.J. (_Abandonment to Divine Providence_ - *good book), and

minimalist good-works Protestantism.

 

"Beat" perhaps has no wider meaning than Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs,

Ferlinghetti, et fils. What does "Impressionist" mean other than those

painters? But if "Beat" has any general meaning, it would seem to be the

the following:

 

- sacredness of immediate inspiration

- defiance of past forms/formulas

- Whitmanesque onward rushing motion

- concrete-oriented street-grit in style

- sexual and pharmacological themes

- nomadic narrators

- combination of cynical or even resigned-depressive tendencies (style

  often emotionally flat) with idealism.

 

Highly religious, and fits Burr perfectly.

 

 

 

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

  Michael R. Brown                        foosi@global.california.com

+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +

 

  "Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing

   not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,

   the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the

   recordings."

                                - William S. Burroughs

                                  (quoted from memory)

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:27:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      [Fwd: Old Bull Lee]

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I thought this was a particularly good post from the Dylan newsgroup.

Patricia, maybe he could still come to Lawrence, but what would he do,

maybe he could feed the cats or something.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Path:

 Supernews69!SupernewsFH!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newshub.tc.umn

 .edu!news.d.umn.edu!bulldog.d.umn.edu!mlenz

From: mlenz@bulldog.d.umn.edu (michael lenz)

Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

Subject: Old Bull Lee

Date: 12 Aug 1997 20:42:38 GMT

Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth

Message-ID: <5sqhru$6h1$2@news.d.umn.edu>

NNTP-Posting-Host: bulldog.d.umn.edu

X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Xref: Supernews69 rec.music.dylan:89808

 

 

i'm not a regular reader of this newsgroup.  this is my first visit since the

 death

of mr. burroughs.  i have to say i'm apalled at at the general brutality and

ignorance that is reigning in here.  you cannot place a value on literature.  it

 is

not quantitative.  you cannot say that hemingway is better than burroughs or

 that

burroughs is better than hemingway.  you can like them both, one of them or

neither.  i think to fully appreciate burroughs you have to here the voice.

burroughs voice is that of a withered shaman.  his work is about culture's

 absurd

attempt to keep up with the technological explosion.  it reflects in dark humor

 the

entropy and isolation that has come to earmark postmodern lioterature.  for me

 he

was among the best.  i value cut-ups and other such experimental forms of

 writing.

i put only pynchon before him and i hesitate to do that because as i said

 before,

it's not a quantitative thing.  i was planning a trip to lawrence next summer,

maybe take in a few horde/furthur shows on the way and sit on the old mystic's

porch for a while.   (i know people who have done this.  burroughs was always a

gentleman to the wayfarers).  i don't know who said what, nor do i care, but the

person who said that he never wrote anything good after Junkie (it was

 origanally

published "Junkie" then reprinted "Junky") and Naked Lunch is ignorant of that

 last

triumphant trilogy (Cities of the Red Night, Place of Dead Roads, and The

 Western

Lands) and the short, but beautiful "The Cat Inside".  Burroughs caused me to

question in my own thinking and writing such elemetary things as words and

 phrases.

to discount his body of work as a "blight" is ignorant and short-sighted.  i for

one will miss the voice and am sorry that my plans were a summer too late.

mike lenz

 

p.s. Check out Ports of Entry.  it's a book of Burroughs artwork.  he was

 equally

talented and equally inventive in that as an artist and a writer.

 

 

--------------9DEC3992ADB3BC61D795DE66--

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:47:55 -0400

Reply-To:     Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: LUTHER ALLISON

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Richard,

 

        Thought you'd like to know that our local paper , the Montreal

Gazette (founded by Ben Franklin believe it or not!) had a nice obituary

about Luther Allison. They described his great show at this year's Montreal

Jazz Festival (which we missed!?!) and what a great receptiion he had.

 

        Also, CBC (the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, our counterpart to

NPR) had a nice bit about Luther on their national radio news at 6:00pm

yesterday, finishing up with "Walkin' Papers". Very nice.

 

        My regards and condolences,

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:17:51 +0200

Reply-To:     Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      about razor

In-Reply-To:  <c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970812172530Z-539@sd-mail.sd.oee s.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>Rinaldo, you are such a tease.  Somebody please translate?

> 

>Douglas

 

>>        ENTIA NON SUNT MULTIPLICANDA

>>        PRAETER NECESSITATEM...

>> 

 

please, excuse me, the translation is

 

        "IT IS VAIN TO DO WITH MORE

        WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH FEWER"

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:44:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James J Stavola <JDSept@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Was Burroughs really a beat writer?

Comments: To: rwallner@capaccess.org

 

Certainly WSB was a beat writer,maybe not in the total sense of religious

mission or so called peace of mind that you mentioned but all of them were a

reaction to that little white house Leave it to Beaver mentality of the late

40s and early 50s.I think the begining of the beat movement was actually a

reaction to the boring mentality of America at that time by the showing of

the fringe livers.WSB certainly fills that concept.Afterwards the writers

went in many individual but loosely tied direction but the original bindings

were still there.most of these guys lived in some kind of exile WSB by

himself or in a group type exile as some of the others did.The idea of

beatness goes farther then just writing anyways.The ultimate beat(terrible

term) who most admired and was a starting point for some of them Neal C. was

hardly a writer at all.I think WSB fits the beat mold.

                         thank-you

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:04:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

Subject:      Lowell Schedule

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

----------

From:  Mark Hemenway[SMTP:mhemenway@igc.apc.org]

Sent:  Wednesday, August 13, 1997 9:57 PM

To:  Hemenway . Mark

 

10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival 2-5 October 1997

Lowell, MA Jack Kerouac Celebrates Lowell

 

THURSDAY 2 OCTOBER

Barbara Concannon-Crete Memorial Poetry Prize- High School Poetry

9:00AM-11:00AM

Lowell High School Poetry Competition for High School Students-

for Information call 508-452-7966

 

Downtown Kerouac Places- Walking Tour

4:30-6:00 PM

Roger Brunelle leads a walking tour of  Kerouac's downtown. Begins

at Middlesex Community College, ends at the Pollard Memorial

Library.

 

Images of  Kerouac '97- Reception and Photography Exhibition

6:00PM- 8:00PM

Whistler House Museum of Art,  243 Worthen Street Open exhibition

of photography inspired by Jack Kerouac or the Beats. Entries

welcome. Deadline 12 September. Co-sponsored by the Whistler House

Museum of Art, 508-452-7641.

 

Jack Kerouac Literary Prize Award

7:00PM

Whistler House Museum of Art, 243 Worthen Street Presentation of

the 9th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. The prize is sponsored

by The Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac, Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac!, Inc. and  Middlesex Community College.

 

Dr Sax Nights- Walking Tours

8:00PM-10:00PM

Roger Brunelle leads a walking tour of Kerouac's Pawtucketville.

Tour begins at MacDonald's Mammoth Rd, ends at  the Spaulding

House,  Pawtucket Blvd. for discussion. Rain or shine.

 

Friends and Music

10:00PM-12:00PM

Greek Band, Greek food and Lowell Poets. The Athenian Corner

Restaurant, 207 Market Street.

 

FRIDAY 3 OCTOBER

3rd Annual Beat Literature Symposium

8:00AM-5:00PM

O'Leary Library, Room 222, South Campus, UMASS-Lowell 9:00AM-12:00

Noon - Presentation of Papers 2:00PM - Keynote Presentation by Ann

Douglas, Columbia University 3:00PM-5:00 - Panel discussions

Leading scholars present original research on beat authors,

writing techniques and cultural phenomena. No charge.  For

information and pre-registration, call 508-934-2446. Sponsored by

the English Department and the Department of Continuing Education,

UMASS-Lowell.

 

Mystic Jack- Walking Tour

5:00PM-6:00PM

Begins and ends at St. Louis Church, Centralville. Tour by Roger

Brunelle.

 

Memorial Mass for Jack and Stella Kerouac

6:00PM-7:00PM

St. Louis de France Church, Centralville

 

Listen to the Beat- Readings

8:00PM-10:00PM

The Parkway Cafe,  350 Market Street Poets Vincent Ferrini,

Patricia Smith, Michael Brown, Lawrence Carradini, and Meg Smith.

Singer song-writer,  Bob Martin present and evening of performance

poetry and music.  Suggested donation $3.00.

 

Friends Music and Lowell Poets

10:00PM-12:00PM

Park Way Cafe

 

SATURDAY 4 OCTOBER

Nashua - Bus Tour

RESERVATIONS REQUIRED

9:00AM-1:00PM

9:00AM- Depart from Lowell Barnes and Noble. Reservations can be

made in person, or call 508-458-3939.  9:30AM- Depart Nashua, NH

Barnes and Noble. NH. For reservations, call Laura Eanes at

603-897-0777.  A bus tour of Kerouac places in Nashua, NH.

 

Small Press Book Fair

10:00AM-4:00PM

Memorial Hall, Pollard Library A sampling of local presses and

Kerouac material. Co-sponsored by the Pollard Memorial Library and

Friends of the Library.

 

Commemorative at the Commemorative- Honoring Jack Kerouac and

Allen Ginsberg 11:00AM-12:00Noon The Kerouac Commemorative, Bridge

and French Streets

 

Strictly Kerouac- Dance

12:30-1:00 PM

The Courtyard at the Market Street Visitor's Center, Lowell

National Historical Park Jan Zwadney and a Feast of Friends

interprets Kerouac in dance, music and word.

 

Allen Ginsberg and Friends: A Photographic Remembrance

1:00PM- 3:00PM Brush Art Gallery, Market Street Visitors Center

Photographs by Gordon Ball, Elsa Dorfman, Gerard Malanga and Fred

McDarrah. Exhibition open from September 25 - November 16th.

 

Gallery Talk- Gordon Ball

1:30PM Brush Art Gallery, Market Street Visitor Center

Photographer and Ginsberg editor, Gordon Ball talks about

photographing Allen Ginsberg.

 

Poetry at the Rainbow Cafe 4:00PM-6:00PM Rainbow Cafe, Cabot

Street

 

Anne Waldman and Friends- A Tribute to Allen Ginsberg

8:00PM-10:00PM Smith Baker Auditorium, Merrimack Street-

Admission- $7.00 Anne Waldman, renowned poet, performer, and

editor leads a tribute to the Dharma Lion. James Cameron on

saxophone.

 

Music Friends and Lowell Poets 10:00PM -12:00 PM The Downstairs

Cafe, Merrimack Street

 

SUNDAY 5 OCTOBER The Jack Kerouac Tour- Bus Tour 9:30AM-11:30AM

RESERVATIONS REQUIRED Departs from  Middlesex Community College,

Merrimack Street Bus tour of Kerouac's Lowell. Call 508-452-7966

for reservations. Please give name, phone number and number of

places reserved.  Words and Music- Open Mic

1:00PM-3:00PM The Coffee Mill, Palmer Street.

 

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. is a non-profit corporation

dedicated to the celebration, enjoyment and study of Jack Kerouac

and his writings. Whenever possible, events are free, however,

donations are gratefully accepted for continued support of the

annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival.. To make a donation,

or to find out more about Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., write:

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853.

 

Before he died at age 47, Jack Kerouac published 24 books

chronicling the lives and adventures of the post war generation in

America. The raw energy and beauty of his prose established a new

standard in American literature. Jack Kerouac was born, raised and

remained a native of Lowell throughout his life. 5 of his novels

take place in Lowell, and the city is mentioned in virtually every

one of his books. His descriptions of Lowell are remarkable for

their beauty, power and timelessness. Through them, millions of

readers have come to know Lowell as a universal hometown.

 

This publication is funded....

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:50:38 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: For Diane M. Homza, "In regards"]

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I am forwarding this post for Arthur so he doesn't have to retype it as

 we start our discussion of Naked Lunch/On the Road/Howl.  There is also

 quite a long essay on how to approach Naked Lunch at www.bigtable.com

 DC

 

>     ---------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> Subject: Re: For Diane M. Homza, "In regards"

> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:07:38 -0400

> From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

> Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM

> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

> Dear Diane:

> 

> I would like to offer some suggestions for your reading of NAKED LUNCH.

> It

> was also the first WSB book that I read in its entirety, almost 2

> decades

> ago, and it can indeed be a little daunting as your first exposure to

> one of

> the great literary and cultural figures of our waning century, and a

> prophet

> of the next and beyond.  In the intervening years since I was in your

> position, I have read, seen, heard and interacted with virtually every

> published item that I am aware of by or about WSB, including the great

> man

> himself whom I visited 2&1/2 years ago.  Besides my posts that are

> flowing at

> a steady rate on this List and to some of its correspondents

> individually, I

> have done a small amount of scholarly writing on him myself.  So, I

> believe I

> am qualified to answer your call for support and advice.

> 

> After having read NL several times and absorbed a lot of commentary on

> it

> from many sources, I thought I had a fair handle on it.  But luckily

> for you,

> there now exists an unprecedented guide, a key to understanding this

> kaleidescopic work.  An audio version of the book, read by WSB himself,

> is

> available.  I have the cd version, I know there is a cassette edition

> also,

> and it should still be available in stock or by order, it only came out

> about

> 2 years ago this fall.  Although abridged, it is 3 hours long and most

> of the

> text is there.  I cannot stress how highly I recommend that you listen

> to WSB

> read NL, it is clear, well-paced, and the very ways in which he

> emphasizes

> and modulates words and sentences bring them into focus and out of the

> fragmentary fog from which they can fade in and out of the text without

> this

> aid.  You could finish reading NL and then obtain the audio edition, or

> better yet obtain and listen to it (at least twice) now, then return to

> your

> reading.  My listening to the cd's no less than doubled my

> comprehension and

> appreciation of this critical work.  But I should note something at

> this

> point-  what I've said above does not mean that you can't enjoy or

> benefit

> from NL without hearing it read by the author, one of the greatest

> pleasures

> I have gotten from it before or after being exposed to the cd's is to

> savor

> the evocative and poetic phrases that have a life of their own and jump

> off

> the page to burrow, so to speak, in your brain.  Some of my favorites

> from

> this rich treasure trove are:  "The days glide by, strung on a syringe

> with a

> long thread of blood", "Motel...Motel...Motel...broken neon

> arabesque...loneliness moans across the continent like foghorns over

> still

> oily water of tidal rivers" (one of my all-time favorite phrases in all

> of

> literature), and so many more.  As the author advises near the end, you

> can

> re-order the pages and read them in any combination, this is a roiling,

> organic work that should not be read with an attitude that it can be

> reined

> in, amenable to cliff-note condensation.

> 

> After you have read and heard NL, I further advise you to go back and

> chronologically read all the works that precede it, in this way you

> will see

> how WSB arrived at NL and further appreciate his achievement in the

> context

> of his life and work up to that point.  The books, all still in print,

> are in

> order as follows:  JUNKY, QUEER, THE YAGE LETTERS (with Allen Ginsberg)

> and

> THE LETTERS OF WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS (1945-1959), which were written,

> mostly

> to AG, during the period leading up to the first publication of NL.

> There is

> another volume of letters written by WSB to AG, many of which do not

> overlap

> with the ones in the other, but it is hard to find.  If you can locate

> it

> (it's just titled WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS\LETTERS TO ALLEN GINSBERG

> 1953-1957),

> I highly recommend it, some of the letters are real gems.  The best

> letters

> of all, in my opinion, are those from WSB to AG in TYL above, it is a

> perversely hilarious and quintessentially Burroughsian work that is

> often

> overlooked, short and fun to read again and again.  All of these early

> works

> are written in a lucid, easily comprehensible style, although you'll

> know

> that only WSB could have written them.  Along with the above works, you

> should also read the biography LITERARY OUTLAW:  THE LIFE AND TIMES OF

> WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS by Ted Morgan, concurrently, before or after them.

>  It

> will give you a good initial grounding in the life and experiences from

> which

> the works emerged, it was published in and goes up to 1988, beyond the

> NL

> period so good enough for your purposes at this point.  As with the

> other

> major Beat figures, the life and art are particularly intertwined and

> mirrors

> of each other.  Finally, you should attempt to see the film biography

> BURROUGHS, directed by Howard Brookner, originally released in 1985.

> Like

> LO, it provides an initial overview.

> 

> I can assure you that you won't be sorry if you follow my suggestions,

> and

> would like to know how you're coming along from time to time.  It may

> seem as

> if I've burdoned you with a semester's worth of reading, listening and

> viewing, but if you catch the WSB virus, you will quickly devour these

> items

> and want MORE.  A few more NL comments to conclude for now-  The

> introductory

> essays which probably appear in whatever edition you're reading,

> TESTIMONY

> CONCERNING A SICKNESS and LETTER FROM A MASTER ADDICT TO DANGEROUS

> DRUGS are

> remarkable in their clarity of language and are in themselves minor

> masterpieces separable from NL even as they enrich it.  And your

> comment

> about Macbeth is interesting.  While an undergraduate at Harvard, WSB

> studied

> Shakespeare, and he is familiar with and weaves quotes from the Bard in

> his

> works and conversation.  WSB arrived at his avant-garde experiments,

> which

> become literally more cutting-edge with the cutups after NL, from a

> firm,

> rounded educational and reading background, not to mention his myriad

> experiences right up to and over the edge.

> 

> Well, enough for now.  Good luck, and I envy your reading these works

> for the

> first time, there's nothing like that first shot......

> 

> Regards,

> 

> Arthur S. Nusbaum

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:00:19 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lowell Kerouac organizers

In-Reply-To:  <c=US%a=_%p=drc%l=AND02-970814130400Z-14979@and02.drc.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>----------

>From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>

>Sent:  Wednesday, August 13, 1997 9:57 PM

 

>10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival 2-5 October 1997

>Lowell, MA Jack Kerouac Celebrates Lowell

 

>Memorial Mass for Jack and Stella Kerouac

>6:00PM-7:00PM

>St. Louis de France Church, Centralville

 

 

It is a disgrace that Jack's daughter, Jan Kerouac, dead slightly more than

a year, is not being included in this mass.

 

This is such an overt act of hatred for a dear, compassionate, generous and

talented writer/daughter that I am without words.

 

I can only hope that beats, be they students, scholars, readers, or

wannabees with heart, brains and gonads, will see that this kind of crap

ends--someday.

 

j grant

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

    http://www.bookzen.com/addbook-form.html

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 08:03:15 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      patti smith news (boston)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

got some more news about patti smith

and her continued support for beat artists

burroughs and ginsberg

 

Interesting to note her attitude

towards performance

towards friendship and art

and <<ahem>>

that she made drawings at AG's deathbed

anybody from boston seen these??

 

stolen from the babel-list (again)

From: JP Jacob <jpjacob@bu.edu>

Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 23:04:50 -0400

Subject: Re: Boston show

 

Douglas

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Thanks to all who came to the Boston show for support of the

Photographic Resource Center. It was a great evening for me, and Patti,

Lenny, and Oliver were also very happy. Before they left, much later

Monday night, Patti said that the band will be doing a limited tour this

fall that will include Boston, followed by a full scale tour next year.

Something to look forward to!

 

I haven't compared this with Mitch's note, so sorry for redundancy, but

here is the complete setlist:

 

1. Footnotes to Howl

<<[snip]>>

9. Psalm 23 Revisited [her WSB poem]

 

What was wonderful for me about the set, since this event was put

together in conjunction with our exhibition at the PRC, was the thread

that Patti wove throughout the show with pieces by and about the

important artists in her life: Ginsberg (to whom the exhibition was

dedicated), Burroughs, O'Keefe, Pollock, and Mapplethorpe.

 

It's something that hasn't received too much attention, but the two new

drawings in the exhibit are the first new drawings that Patti has shown

since the 1970s (anyway, so she tells me). They're expansions of

sketches and notes that she made at Ginsberg's deathbed (she was

carrying the original sketches in her pocket while reading the Footnotes

from Howl to us), and the performance seemed to me to come right out of

the passion and the love that went into those drawings. That was the

starting point.

 

<<[snip]>>

 

There's one other thing. I had a real introduction, but Patti asked me

not to read it. What I'd wanted to talk about is how impressed I have

been by Patti, Lenny, and Oliver's ongoing support of organizations and

individuals, taking positions in relation to small causes as readily as

to issues of global importance. I mean, it's probably not too hard for a

celebrity to support one or two important causes. But I think that it's

exhausting and to some extent precarious for an artist these days to

support many causes, especially the small, unproven ones (for example,

it's easy to do a benefit for MoMA, but the Photographic Resource

Center? An artists space with a staff of 3?).

 

I remember that the Seegers, Mike and Pete, could always be counted to

show up in support of local causes in the Hudson River valley area where

my grandfather lived, and where I spent a lot of time during high

school. I was always so impressed that they could function

simultaneously on local and international levels that way. I don't feel

that many artists today have that sense of commitment, and to see it in

Patti, Lenny, and Oliver makes me proud to support them. Their

commitment to the values that we share enables me to be *not* just a

consumer of their products, but, to some extent, a part of the its

creation. That kind of sharing is absent from most other

entertainer/artist/audience/venue relationships that I experience. And I

think that's what makes shows like Monday night's so wonderful and

renewing for us as supporters of Patti's artwork.

 

That's enough for now.

 

John

- --

jpjacob@bu.edu

Photographic Resource Center at Boston University

http://web.bu.edu/PRC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:06:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: about razor..Occam's

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

This has often been referred to as "Occam's razor", the desire to shave away

any excess conditions in an hypothesis or theory. Occam (Henry of ...?) as I

recall was a contemporary of the monk-philosopher Francis Bacon, the central

figure in "The Name of the Rose".

 

        Antoine

 

        ***************

 

>>Rinaldo, you are such a tease.  Somebody please translate?

>> 

>>Douglas

> 

>>>        ENTIA NON SUNT MULTIPLICANDA

>>>        PRAETER NECESSITATEM...

>>> 

> 

>please, excuse me, the translation is

> 

>        "IT IS VAIN TO DO WITH MORE

>        WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH FEWER"

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:06:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lowell Kerouac organizers

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Jo,  ...please bear with me on this Jo; not a flame war, and especially not

on the first day that we have our reply priveleges reinstated!; read on.

 

        "It is a disgrace that" you have to be so vitriolic in your attack

on the idea of not including "Jack's daughter, Jan Kerouac, dead slightly

more than a year" ... "in this mass."

 

"This is such an overt act of hatred for a" situation that I suspect you

aren't that close to - although you were clearly very close to Jan. Why not

try to be "compassionate, generous" and understanding to those who are

celebrating this mass. Following your argument, one could easily ask why

Nin, Leo, Gerard and a host of others are not being similarly memorialized.

Why not Bill Burroughs since he was far closer to Jack and far more

important to him than Jan - or Stella for that matter!

 

Jan was a "talented writer/daughter" who unfortunately was never able to

forge a relationship with her father, but she has many friends and defenders

outside the Sampas - Kerouac circle, and there shouldn't be any need to

force Jack's error down the throats of the Lowell /Sampas group.

 

I - like you - probaly think it would be a nice closure to have Jan also

remembered in the way you suggest - but to force it grudgingly would not

honor Jan's memory.

 

"I can only hope that beats, be they students, scholars, readers, or

wannabees with heart, brains and gonads, will see that" this vain attempt to

form a union that never existed in life "ends--someday."

 

A lot depends on your perspective Jo, and mine has nothing to do with anyone

in Lowell or anyone named Sampas.  Far better that we find our own ways to

honor Jan.

 

        Antoine

 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:40:39 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Sign-off

 

well, friends, must sign-off to make my trip to the Fringe & International

Arts Festivals and a poetry class at the Univ of Edinburgh.  will be back on

9/1.

 

hopefully, the damned unsubscribe thing will work.

 

enjoy the rest of the summer and keep it beat.

 

ciao, sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:32:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Sign-off

Comments: To: Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Damn shame about you having to go to Edinburgh.  I will pray that you

are delivered from this doom.

 

 

Sherri wrote:

 

> well, friends, must sign-off to make my trip to the Fringe &

> International

> Arts Festivals and a poetry class at the Univ of Edinburgh.  will be

> back on

> 9/1.

> 

> hopefully, the damned unsubscribe thing will work.

> 

> enjoy the rest of the summer and keep it beat.

> 

> ciao, sherri

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:58:29 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      spiritual glimpse (personal request)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

There is the potential for this message to go non-beat.

I'm discovering a spiritual apetite that was once squelched by

overbearing guardians with questionable intentions...

 

I'm now ready to re-investigate this side of experience and was wondering

if any listers would point me in the direction of beat or non-beat

spiritual script... My definition of "spirituality" is

limitless...perhaps you would be willing to share what you have found

meaningful...

 

I'd appreciate starting my search with some input from the list.

 

Thanks...

feel free to backchannel if this isn't Listworthy... although I would

enjoy seeing a beat spirituality thread start on this list....

 

-shannon (in Tucson, where the heat has somehow prompted my search for

god...)

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:25:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: spiritual glimpse (personal request)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Shannon writ:

 

<< 

>feel free to backchannel if this isn't Listworthy... although I would

>enjoy seeing a beat spirituality thread start on this list....

>> 

> 

Well, in my mind, application of spirituality is always a good issue.

 

Was impressed, and am impressed more and more, by the example set by

poet, singer, artist Patti Smith.  She's holy, holy and still retains

her personal space.  that and she continually pays tribute to friends

and family that have passed away.  She doesn't shy away from hecklers,

politics, or even uninhibited love of the Dali Lama.  She is mercury

with a lizard gaze.  Truly, she transcends, transcends.

 

Surely this is a beat quote unquote trait?

 

My "advice" would be to start reading more biographies.  Pick someone

you like.  and if they aren't famous, don't have anything written about

them, well.... you'll just have to listen.  yep, listen.

 

Douglas  :-)

 

PS:  and people keep mentioning archives for this list, but I haven't

found em yet.  There have been many posts that aided and abetted my own

>spiritual search.  Maybe you too can find some solace in them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:51:11 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      (FWD) burroughs' letter to kerouac on buddhism

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Return-Path: <bofus@fcom.com>

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 06:33:45 -0800

From: bofus? <bofus@fcom.com>

To: bofus@fcom.com

Subject: burroughs' letter to kerouac on buddhism

 

Derek B Monypeny <dbm@U.Arizona.EDU> wrote:

> 

> 

>  scene: burroughs is in morocco. the

>  accidental shooting death of jane burroughs

>  has already occurred. burroughs is in the

>  process of writing what would become "naked

>  lunch" and pining for allen ginsberg. he is

>  replying to a letter from kerouac which

>  stated, among other things, that kerouac

>  had devoted himself to the study of

>  buddhism and had renounced sex for good.

> 

>  ...I can't help but feeling that you are

>  going too far with your absolute chastity.

>  Besides, masturbation is NOT chastity, it

>  is just a way of sidestepping the issue

>  without even approaching the solution.

>  Remember, Jack, I studied and practiced

>  Buddhism (in my usual sloppy way to be

>  sure). The conclusion I arrived at, and I

>  make no claims to speak from a state of

>  enlightenment, but merely to have attempted

>  the journey, as always with inadequate

>  equipment and knowledge (like one of my

>  South American expeditions), falling into

>  every possible accident and error, losing

>  my gear and my way, chilled to the

>  blood-making marrow with final despair of

>  aloneness: What am I doing here a broken

>  eccentric? A Bowery Evangelist, reading

>  books on Theosophy in the public library

>  (an old tin trunk full of notes in my cold

>  water East Side flat), imagining myself a

>  Secret World Controller in Telepathic

>  Contact with Tibetan Adepts... Could I ever

>  SEE the merciless, cold FACTS on some Winter

>  night, sitting in the operation room white

>  glare of a cefeteria - NO SMOKING PLEASE -

>  see the facts AND MYSELF, an old man with

>  the wasted years behind, and what ahead

>  having seen the Facts? A trunk full of

>  notes to dump in a Henry St. lot?... So my

>  conclusion was that Buddhism is only for

>  the West to STUDY as HISTORY, that is it is

>  a subject for UNDERSTANDING, and Yoga can

>  profitably be practiced to that end. But it

>  is not, for the West, An ANSWER, not a

>  SOLUTION. We must learn by acting,

>  experiencing, and living; that is, above

>  all, by LOVE and by SUFFERING. A man who

>  uses Buddhism or any other instrument to

>  remove love from his being in order to

>  avoid, has committed, in my mind, a

>  sacrilege comparable to castration. You

>  were given the power to love in order to

>  use it, no matter what pain it may cause

>  you. Buddhism frequently amounts to a form

>  of psychic junk... Because if there is one

>  thing I feel sure of its this: That human

>  life has DIRECTION. Even if we accept some

>  Spenglerian Cycle routine, the cycle never

>  comes back to exactly the same place, nor

>  does it ever exactly repeat itself... When

>  the potentials of any species are

>  exhausted, the species becomes static (like

>  all animals, reptiles and other so-called

>  lower forms of life). What distinguished

>  Man from all other species is that he

>  CANNOT BECOME STATIC. "Er muss streben oder

>  untergehen" (quotation is from myself in

>  character of German Philosopher)-"He must

>  continue to develop or perish."... What I

>  mean is the California Buddhists are trying

>  to sit on the sidelines and there ARE no

>  sidelines. Whether you like it or not, you

>  are committed to the human endeavor. I can

>  not ally myself with such a purely negative

>  goal as avoidance of suffering. Suffering is

>  a chance you have to take by the fact of

>  being alive. I repeat, BUDDHISM IS NOT FOR

>  THE WEST. We must evolve our own

>  solutions... I am having serious

>  difficulties with my novel. I tell you the

>  novel form is completely inadequate to

>  express what I have to say. I don't know if

>  I can find a form. I am very gloomy as to

>  prospects of publication. And I'm not like

>  you, Jack. I need an audience. Of course, a

>  small audience. But still I need publication

>  for development. A writer can be ruined by

>  too much or too little success...

> 

> 

> 

>  From "Letters of William S. Burroughs

>  1945-1959."  Edited with an introduction by

>  Oliver Harris. Viking, 1993.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:09:33 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: about razor..Occam's

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997081411062000@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

hello all friends,

 

William of Occam, of course...

                        &

 

                THE NAME OF THE ROSE

 

 "stat rosa pristina nomine, nomina luda tenemu"

"the ancient rose is necessarily connected to her name,

        we have got things without their name"

                        &

 

          the medieval prior set the books on fire,

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

*

BTW, i found a Ferlighetti's poem:

 

Walking through the University of Bologna

                the oldest university in the world...

The usual protests by the usual students

                stoning the administration

                for Giordano Bruno

                        or Garibaldi

                                or Pasolini

                                        or Lotta Continua

The usual statues under the arcades

                or under the trees

                        Great yellow leaves

                                falling on them

And the gardens full of

        stone philosophers

                oblivious

                        above it all

                having survived their own

            dying fall

As I release a singing bird

from under my hat

And join the rearest demonstration

against virtual reality

led by Umberto Eco I suppose

or a wit that looks like him

                waving a rose

 

--Lawrence Ferlighetti, "Italian Scenes"

*

 

--------

At 11.06 14/08/97 -0400,

Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET> wrote:

>This has often been referred to as "Occam's razor", the desire to shave away

>any excess conditions in an hypothesis or theory. Occam (Henry of ...?) as I

>recall was a contemporary of the monk-philosopher Francis Bacon, the central

>figure in "The Name of the Rose".

> 

>        Antoine

> 

>        ***************

> 

>>>Rinaldo, you are such a tease.  Somebody please translate?

>>> 

>>>Douglas

>> 

>>>>        ENTIA NON SUNT MULTIPLICANDA

>>>>        PRAETER NECESSITATEM...

>>>> 

>> 

>>please, excuse me, the translation is

>> 

>>        "IT IS VAIN TO DO WITH MORE

>>        WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH FEWER"

>> 

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

>                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:42:07 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      in search of western lands

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Burroughs.

 

am beginning to gear up my search for his work.  Have been trying to lay

some groundwork for his arrival.  All the posts on this list regarding

his "western lands" and "letter to JK" have been wonderful.  absolutely

wonderful.  It's very unfortunate, therefore, that my local bookstore

doesn't carry these two items.  :-(

 

So......., in the meantime......., I've been trying to build an

impression, the connotations, the questions I would bring to these works

 ---->  Here's a snippet from Isidore Ducasse, Comte de Lautreamont that

sparked a few connections:

 

"Go on, keep marching straight ahead.  I condemn you to become a

wanderer.  I condemn you to remain alone, without a family.  Keep

walking, until your legs refuse to carry you any further.  Cross the

desert sands until the ending doom and the stars are swallowed up in

nothingness.  When you pass by the tiger's lair, he will run headlong

away, to keep from seeing, as in a mirror, his nature raised up on the

pedastal of ideal perversity."

 

(Les Chants de Maldoror, 1868)

[from _Surrealists & Surrealism_, p21]

 

=-=-=--=-=-=

 

and then mixed in, all these stories about tapes being played in cars

returning from the WSB memorial.  I wonder about the road kill, the

smelly remains of animals trying to cross the road.  Horrible sight, I

know.  Silly, inhumane to even mention it.  Too obsess over it, the

headlights faint glance, the possible swerve, and the possible, minute

bump in the road.  Perversity?  Alone, without family?  Desert sands?

Running away, mirrors, and pedastals of the ideal.  Ompholos.

 

and Carolyn Cassidy's comments about fools only learning from

themselves.  ??? This is empirical knowledge, yes?  "Doctor, heal they

self" and all that.  And being able to plumb your own depths/deaths,

well, who wants to advocate that?  But how about being unable to face

yourself, being unable to avoid others who have made similar "perverted"

paths?  I think being able to map out, within personal experience, via

biography or wisdom, that is a a a.  that is enough, I figure.  Chit

chat might have been useless, I don't know.  <<probably>>  But work, am

definately thinking about that.  and Death, death, death does work.

 

sorry for the meandering, the philosophical babbling.  [[and then

there's the WSB quote about death laying the seed for life...

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:14:18 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: in search of western lands

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

> 

> Burroughs.

> 

> am beginning to gear up my search for his work.  Have been trying to lay

> some groundwork for his arrival.  All the posts on this list regarding

> his "western lands" and "letter to JK" have been wonderful.  absolutely

> wonderful.  It's very unfortunate, therefore, that my local bookstore

> doesn't carry these two items.  :-(

> 

> So......., in the meantime......., I've been trying to build an

> impression, the connotations, the questions I would bring to these works

>  ---->  Here's a snippet from Isidore Ducasse, Comte de Lautreamont that

> sparked a few connections:

> 

> "Go on, keep marching straight ahead.  I condemn you to become a

> wanderer.  I condemn you to remain alone, without a family.  Keep

> walking, until your legs refuse to carry you any further.  Cross the

> desert sands until the ending doom and the stars are swallowed up in

> nothingness.  When you pass by the tiger's lair, he will run headlong

> away, to keep from seeing, as in a mirror, his nature raised up on the

> pedastal of ideal perversity."

> 

> (Les Chants de Maldoror, 1868)

> [from _Surrealists & Surrealism_, p21]

> 

> =-=-=--=-=-=

> 

> and then mixed in, all these stories about tapes being played in cars

> returning from the WSB memorial.  I wonder about the road kill, the

> smelly remains of animals trying to cross the road.  Horrible sight, I

> know.  Silly, inhumane to even mention it.  Too obsess over it, the

> headlights faint glance, the possible swerve, and the possible, minute

> bump in the road.  Perversity?  Alone, without family?  Desert sands?

> Running away, mirrors, and pedastals of the ideal.  Ompholos.

> 

> and Carolyn Cassidy's comments about fools only learning from

> themselves.  ??? This is empirical knowledge, yes?  "Doctor, heal they

> self" and all that.  And being able to plumb your own depths/deaths,

> well, who wants to advocate that?  But how about being unable to face

> yourself, being unable to avoid others who have made similar "perverted"

> paths?  I think being able to map out, within personal experience, via

> biography or wisdom, that is a a a.  that is enough, I figure.  Chit

> chat might have been useless, I don't know.  <<probably>>  But work, am

> definately thinking about that.  and Death, death, death does work.

> 

> sorry for the meandering, the philosophical babbling.  [[and then

> there's the WSB quote about death laying the seed for life...

> 

> Douglas

 

penguin paperback edition $12.95 us

isbn#0-14-009456-3

 

just to ease everybody's traumatized thoughts out there - rest assured

there were no roadkills from my legacy west from lawrence.  not even a

bug splotch.  but several birds successfully relieved themselves on my

little white automobile.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:35:46 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Lewis Warsh as a translator of avant-garde chinese poetry

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

THIS IS NOT THE LAST

 

 

This is not the last

that's punished by language.

A new wooden house

is knocked down by a tree.

 

The prisoner

makes traps around himself.

If he's let out alive

he'll take the crimes with him.

 

He has no other shortcut.

A knife between life and death.

Light is cut open

and bent by the lonely sky.

 

The world is as painful as fate.

Words are shackles.

Once he's learned how to confess,

no one can ever defend him.

 

Translated by Wang Ping and Lewis Warsh

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:01:51 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Connie Urgena <connieu@COMPUTIZE.COM>

Subject:      Re: spiritual glimpse (personal request)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

 

>Subject:     spiritual glimpse (personal request)

>Sent:        8/14/97 11:58 AM

>Received:    8/14/97 12:07 PM

>From:        Shannon L. Stephens, shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU

>Reply-To:    BEAT-L: Beat Generation List, BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>To:          BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> 

>There is the potential for this message to go non-beat.

>I'm discovering a spiritual apetite that was once squelched by

>overbearing guardians with questionable intentions...

> 

>I'm now ready to re-investigate this side of experience and was wondering

>if any listers would point me in the direction of beat or non-beat

>spiritual script... My definition of "spirituality" is

>limitless...perhaps you would be willing to share what you have found

>meaningful...

> 

>I'd appreciate starting my search with some input from the list.

> 

>Thanks...

>feel free to backchannel if this isn't Listworthy... although I would

>enjoy seeing a beat spirituality thread start on this list....

> 

>-shannon (in Tucson, where the heat has somehow prompted my search for

>god...)

 

You might want to think twice about searching for god ...

 

"... the very nature and essence of every religious system is the

impoverishment, enslavement, and

annihilation of humanity for the benefit of divinity.

 

"God being everything, the real world and man are nothing. God being

truth, justice, goodness, beauty,

power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence,

and death. God being master, man is

the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his

own effort, he can attain them only

through a divine revelation. But whoever says revelation says revealers,

messiahs, prophets, priests, and

legislators inspired by God himself; and these, once recognized as the

representatives of divinity on earth,

as the holy instructors of humanity, chosen by God himself to direct it

in the path of salvation, necessarily

exercise absolute power."

 

--Michael Bakunin, God and State

  complete text at

 

http://www.pitzer.edu/~dward/Anarchist_Archives/bakunin/godandstate/godands

tate_ch1.html

 

Granted, this a pretty hard line view, but upon careful study, it makes

sense.

 

Although you may get a lot of advice from the list, you will ultimately

find the answers within yourself. Douglas offered some very good advice

about reading more biographies. Take a close look at the people you

respect ... what do they value and why? I have recently been working on a

WSB memorial diptych and it has really given me perspective on who I am.

Creativity, brilliance, nerve, individuality ... these are the things I

value and admire, and they are the paths on which I travel.

 

Connie Urgena

connieu@computize.com

 

Web Development, Computize, Inc.

1030 Wirt Road * Suite 400 * Houston TX 77055

713.957.0057 x213 * 713.613.4812 fax

 

http://www.computize.com/

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:25:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Double posts

 

Bill:

I tried doing this by backchanneling to you directly but the post came back.

 

We are suddenly get all messages in duplicate.  What can be done? Do we

suddenly have two subscriptions? Please help. There is enough mail without

getting two of everything.

Thanks

Pam

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 07:15:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: spiritual glimpse (personal request)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> Connie Urgena wrote:

> 

> You might want to think twice about searching for god ...

> 

> "... the very nature and essence of every religious system is the

> impoverishment, enslavement, and

> annihilation of humanity for the benefit of divinity.

> 

> "God being everything, the real world and man are nothing. God being

> truth, justice, goodness, beauty,

> power, and life, man is falsehood, iniquity, evil, ugliness, impotence,

> and death. God being master, man is

> the slave. Incapable of finding justice, truth, and eternal life by his

> own effort, he can attain them only

> through a divine revelation. But whoever says revelation says

> revealers,

> messiahs, prophets, priests, and

> legislators inspired by God himself; and these, once recognized as the

> representatives of divinity on earth,

> as the holy instructors of humanity, chosen by God himself to direct it

> in the path of salvation, necessarily

> exercise absolute power."

> 

> --Michael Bakunin, God and State

>   complete text at

> http://www.pitzer.edu/~dward/Anarchist_Archives/bakunin/godandstate/godan> ds

> tate_ch1.html

> 

> Granted, this a pretty hard line view, but upon careful study, it makes

> sense.

 

It makes sense only if your view of God is limited to that of religious

doctrine. I think that all the big three beat writers believed in God,

though not the God of the Bible, although Kerouac certainly carried

around guilt from early Catholicism.  Most of his writing is, in fact, a

spiritual quest.  I think that if you follow the spiritual theme in beat

literature, you are more likely to find a definition of God as an eternal

oneness in all things, even in man.  In Burroughs even God was more seen

as an originator of things, even if the pre-record universe needed

shaking up a bit. Ginsberg would probably say that if God is truth,

justice, goodness, beauty, and life, then God is in you and in all

things, hence his thought that everything is holy. The text you quoted

seems to put man in the Christian context of needing salvation, of God as

an absolute power.  Maybe God means more an absolute freedom, Burroughs'

universe without order, the ability to see eternity in all things here

and now.  Others can disagree but I think the beats tended to look within

for spiritual glimpses as opposed to looking outward to a church-based

definition.

DC

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:09:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sign-off

Comments: To: Sherri <love_singing@msn.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

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 so now -

- you're back.

 

gotta get off sherri

clean the disaster

have to pack and pad

the baby line

 

it isn't a ciao ,

when i get most...

rofl

 

Douglas

 

 

 

>----------

>From:  Sherri[SMTP:love_singing@msn.com]

>Sent:  Thursday, August 14, 1997 4:57 PM

>To:    Penn, Douglas, K

>Subject:       RE: Sign-off

> 

>rofl Douglas - you're the most... gotta get offline now - have to pack and

>clean the pad so it isn't a disaster when i get back.

> 

>ciao baby,

>sherri

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:54:27 UT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>

Subject:      Bye Bye

Comments: To: Stef <Ad_Libitum@msn.com>, HJW II <ArchibaldLeach@msn.com>,

          Stuart Crosby <BRAVES10@msn.com>, Ron Vassel <BlizzardKing@msn.com>,

          Michael Riddle <CENTERLINEDESIGN@msn.com>,

          Cari Who ELSE???? <CittiGirl@msn.com>,

          CURTIS SHIPE <DONDIMARIAN@msn.com>, db <Dee-Bee@msn.com>,

          Don G <FarmCityboy@msn.com>, Homebrook <Homebrook@msn.com>,

          Jason Tinling <JTinlng@msn.com>, Kevin Mathers <KEVMATH@msn.com>,

          Kel Rayner <Manatbar@msn.com>,

          the little people <MarmaladeSkies@msn.com>,

          Kent <NoixDeGolf@msn.com>, Jim B <PBRUEGEL@msn.com>,

          Ask and I might tell you <Peaceful-Warrior2@msn.com>,

          R <ROcean@msn.com>, Blair <Reepoo@msn.com>,

          James Sims <SimbaJim@msn.com>, Sharon <SopAndBass@msn.com>,

          Tom Gummo <TGUMMO@msn.com>, tim/reba <the_saluki_experience@msn.com>,

          Life is a sick joke and I'm the punchline <The_Boogey_Man@msn.com>,

          rico <UNIR1@msn.com>, Mark <Vox_Amicus@msn.com>,

          "e.e. cummings" <What-is_death@msn.com>,

          Tanya Ceccatto <_AngelBaby@msn.com>, Michael <_Prometheus1@msn.com>,

          S Johnson <doc11@msn.com>, Drew Eskenazi <drewesk@msn.com>,

          Robert Lear <king_lear1@msn.com>, x <king_lear1@msn.com>,

          PAUL KOLJESKI <koljeski@msn.com>,

          Silver Surfer <mad-chatter@msn.com>, david simoni <oak123@msn.com>,

          Kash Philips <philkash@msn.com>, Rico Mariani <ricom_ms@msn.com>,

          Robert Eback <rleback@msn.com>, Stephen Baldwin <sabaldwin@msn.com>,

          anniepoo <annh@ccrtc.com>, Doug Penn <dkpenn@oees.com>,

          BigDaddyRico <Engelsguy@aol.com>, Joe Locey <JoePlaceb0@aol.com>,

          Don Green <NYCDBG@aol.com>,

          "S. Coart Johnson" <scoart@mindspring.com>, cj <sjohn111@aol.com>,

          CVEditions@aol.com, Kent Smedley <Kent.Smedley@clorox.com>,

          Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@aol.com>,

          THEBODYIS1@aol.com, runner711 <babu@electriciti.com>,

          "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>,

          Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>,

          Diane Carter <dcarter@together.net>, jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>,

          Patricia Elliott <pelliott@sunflower.com>,

          RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>, James Stauffer <stauffer@pacbell.net>

 

well, all you darlings, i'm off on my dream trip of a lifetime.  off to

Scotland and England for 2 weeks...  those of you for whom i have addresses, i

will try to send postcards, but please forgive me if i miss you, i've tried to

make sure they're in my address book - but as usual, i'm way short of time...

 

anyway, hope you all spend these last two weeks of the glorious summer

thoroughly enjoying yourselves and i'll see you online in a couple of weeks.

 

Diane - please continue to send me the "Ulysses" posts.  i'm taking it with me

to read, so should keep up with the group...  i'll have access to the internet

in some form at least during the major portion of my trip and if i'm inclined

and have any interesting thoughts will post while on the road.

 

ready to take the high road...

 

hugs & kisses to you all,

sherri

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 19:12:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Judith Campbell <boondock@POBOX.COM>

Subject:      Burroughs Obit in Atlanta Creative Loafing

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://www.creativeloafing.com/newsstand/current/v_bill.htm

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:11:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Kerouac Festival Schedule

Comments: To: bfoye@aol.com, jsaint@tiac.net, tongues@tiac.net,

          holladay@woods.uml.edu, fisher@program.com,

          milton1@cliffy.polaraoid.com, wakonda@aol.tiac.net,

          schorr@world.std.com, whalec@boat.bt.co.uk,

          danbarth@mail.yokayo.uusd.k12.ca.us, cusimano@fas.harvard.edu,

          valcomb@aol.com, goslow@phx.com, wxgbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu,

          brooklyn@netcom.com, jhanson@penguin.com, hpark2@aol.com,

          karmacoupe@aol.com, mhemenway@s1.drc.com, kalron@ix.netcom.com,

          BeatRyder@aol.com, dave@scryber.com, radiofreeal@delphi.com,

          news@globe.com, 100120.361@compuserve.com, iht@eurokom.ie,

          nandq@guardian.co.uk, ciweekly@mailnfs0.tiac.net, arts@globe.com,

          mnews@world.std.com, norbull@aol.com, 73174.3344@compuserve.com,

          sfexaminer@aol.com, nlnews@ozarks.sgcl.lib.mo.us, greenwre@apn.com,

          brandx@winnipeg.cbc.ca, bnw@babylon.montreal.qc.ca,

          the_future@tvo.org, iac@bbc-ibar.demon.co.uk, lateshow@pipeline.com,

          foxnet@delphi.com, etv@unlinfo.unl.edu, nightly@nbc.ge.com,

          wesun@clark.net, radio@ohiou.edu, wcvb@aol.com,

          74201.2255@compuserve.com, wmbr-press@media.mit.edu, klmcomm@aol.com,

          general@the-tec.mit.edu, wmbr-press@media.mit.edu, wmfo@tufts.edu,

          allie.cat@genie.com, DawnDr@aol.com, kh14586@acs.appstate.edu,

          skolowra@rykodisc.mhub.com, clv100u@m.BITNET,

          ozart.fpa.odu.edu@mailnfs0.tiac.net, madhatter20@juno.com,

          poetrypiza@aol.com, carter@mvlc.lib.ma.us, myhorseisdead@hotmail.com,

          kathleen_fitzgerald@dbna.com, bookem@pacific.net

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From:  Mark Hemenway[SMTP:mhemenway@igc.apc.org]

 

10th Annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival 2-5 October 1997

Lowell, MA Jack Kerouac Celebrates Lowell

 

THURSDAY 2 OCTOBER

Barbara Concannon-Crete Memorial Poetry Prize- High School Poetry

9:00AM-11:00AM

Lowell High School Poetry Competition for High School Students-

for Information call 508-452-7966

 

Downtown Kerouac Places- Walking Tour

4:30-6:00 PM

Roger Brunelle leads a walking tour of  Kerouac's downtown. Begins

at Middlesex Community College, ends at the Pollard Memorial

Library.

 

Images of  Kerouac '97- Reception and Photography Exhibition

6:00PM- 8:00PM

Whistler House Museum of Art,  243 Worthen Street Open exhibition

of photography inspired by Jack Kerouac or the Beats. Entries

welcome. Deadline 12 September. Co-sponsored by the Whistler House

Museum of Art, 508-452-7641.

 

Jack Kerouac Literary Prize Award

7:00PM

Whistler House Museum of Art, 243 Worthen Street Presentation of

the 9th Annual Jack Kerouac Literary Prize. The prize is sponsored

by The Estate of Jack and Stella Kerouac, Lowell Celebrates

Kerouac!, Inc. and  Middlesex Community College.

 

Dr Sax Nights- Walking Tours

8:00PM-10:00PM

Roger Brunelle leads a walking tour of Kerouac's Pawtucketville.

Tour begins at MacDonald's Mammoth Rd, ends at  the Spaulding

House,  Pawtucket Blvd. for discussion. Rain or shine.

 

Friends and Music

10:00PM-12:00PM

Greek Band, Greek food and Lowell Poets. The Athenian Corner

Restaurant, 207 Market Street.

 

FRIDAY 3 OCTOBER

3rd Annual Beat Literature Symposium

8:00AM-5:00PM

O'Leary Library, Room 222, South Campus, UMASS-Lowell 9:00AM-12:00

Noon - Presentation of Papers 2:00PM - Keynote Presentation by Ann

Douglas, Columbia University 3:00PM-5:00 - Panel discussions

Leading scholars present original research on beat authors,

writing techniques and cultural phenomena. No charge.  For

information and pre-registration, call 508-934-2446. Sponsored by

the English Department and the Department of Continuing Education,

UMASS-Lowell.

 

Mystic Jack- Walking Tour

5:00PM-6:00PM

Begins and ends at St. Louis Church, Centralville. Tour by Roger

Brunelle.

 

Memorial Mass for Jack and Stella Kerouac

6:00PM-7:00PM

St. Louis de France Church, Centralville

 

Listen to the Beat- Readings

8:00PM-10:00PM

The Parkway Cafe,  350 Market Street Poets Vincent Ferrini,

Patricia Smith, Michael Brown, Lawrence Carradini, and Meg Smith.

Singer song-writer,  Bob Martin present and evening of performance

poetry and music.  Suggested donation $3.00.

 

Friends Music and Lowell Poets

10:00PM-12:00PM

Park Way Cafe

 

SATURDAY 4 OCTOBER

Nashua - Bus Tour

RESERVATIONS REQUIRED

9:00AM-1:00PM

9:00AM- Depart from Lowell Barnes and Noble. Reservations can be

made in person, or call 508-458-3939.  9:30AM- Depart Nashua, NH

Barnes and Noble. NH. For reservations, call Laura Eanes at

603-897-0777.  A bus tour of Kerouac places in Nashua, NH.

 

Small Press Book Fair

10:00AM-4:00PM

Memorial Hall, Pollard Library A sampling of local presses and

Kerouac material. Co-sponsored by the Pollard Memorial Library and

Friends of the Library.

 

Commemorative at the Commemorative- Honoring Jack Kerouac and

Allen Ginsberg 11:00AM-12:00Noon The Kerouac Commemorative, Bridge

and French Streets

 

Strictly Kerouac- Dance

12:30-1:00 PM

The Courtyard at the Market Street Visitor's Center, Lowell

National Historical Park Jan Zwadney and a Feast of Friends

interprets Kerouac in dance, music and word.

 

Allen Ginsberg and Friends: A Photographic Remembrance

1:00PM- 3:00PM Brush Art Gallery, Market Street Visitors Center

Photographs by Gordon Ball, Elsa Dorfman, Gerard Malanga and Fred

McDarrah. Exhibition open from September 25 - November 16th.

 

Gallery Talk- Gordon Ball

1:30PM Brush Art Gallery, Market Street Visitor Center

Photographer and Ginsberg editor, Gordon Ball talks about

photographing Allen Ginsberg.

 

Poetry at the Rainbow Cafe 4:00PM-6:00PM Rainbow Cafe, Cabot

Street

 

Anne Waldman and Friends- A Tribute to Allen Ginsberg

8:00PM-10:00PM Smith Baker Auditorium, Merrimack Street-

Admission- $7.00 Anne Waldman, renowned poet, performer, and

editor leads a tribute to the Dharma Lion. James Cameron on

saxophone.

 

Music Friends and Lowell Poets 10:00PM -12:00 PM The Downstairs

Cafe, Merrimack Street

 

SUNDAY 5 OCTOBER The Jack Kerouac Tour- Bus Tour 9:30AM-11:30AM

RESERVATIONS REQUIRED Departs from  Middlesex Community College,

Merrimack Street Bus tour of Kerouac's Lowell. Call 508-452-7966

for reservations. Please give name, phone number and number of

places reserved.  Words and Music- Open Mic

1:00PM-3:00PM The Coffee Mill, Palmer Street.

 

Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc. is a non-profit corporation

dedicated to the celebration, enjoyment and study of Jack Kerouac

and his writings. Whenever possible, events are free, however,

donations are gratefully accepted for continued support of the

annual Lowell Celebrates Kerouac! Festival.. To make a donation,

or to find out more about Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, Inc., write:

P.O. Box 1111, Lowell, MA 01853.

 

Before he died at age 47, Jack Kerouac published 24 books

chronicling the lives and adventures of the post war generation in

America. The raw energy and beauty of his prose established a new

standard in American literature. Jack Kerouac was born, raised and

remained a native of Lowell throughout his life. 5 of his novels

take place in Lowell, and the city is mentioned in virtually every

one of his books. His descriptions of Lowell are remarkable for

their beauty, power and timelessness. Through them, millions of

readers have come to know Lowell as a universal hometown.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:33:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      The sword-stick of truth and justice...

Comments: cc: Gerald Houghton <houghtong@globalnet.co.uk>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

More from G. Houghton

regarding WSB

anybody out there feel like doing a little typin/scannin??

 

Douglas

 

 

<< start of forwarded material >>

 

 

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:35:46 +0100

To: runner <babu@electriciti.com>

From: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk (Gerald Houghton)

Subject: The sword-stick of truth and justice...

 

'New Musical Express' ran a double-page obit for WSB yesterday,

concentrating in particular on his connections with music. And a very fine

piece it was, not least because it made the point about him being funny that

so many have missed. It was topped out by a surprisingly good interview with

Bono of U2 about meeting/working with the man.

 

Nice pictures too.

 

And Tower Records book dept in London ran an ad in 'Time Out' magazine

saying farewell to the man. Didn't even say "come and buy all his books

posthumously" either. Wonders never cease.

 

This Saturday night (16th), BBC2 television in the UK are repeating their 90

minute 'Arena' special about WSB as a tribute.

 

 

 

Gerald Houghton

e-mail: houghtong@globalnet.co.uk

The Edge magazine homepage:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~houghtong/edge1.htm

 

 

<< end of forwarded material >>

 

 

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:41:16 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs Obit in Atlanta Creative Loafing

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.32.19970814191222.00a12c28@ellijay.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 4:12 PM -0700 8/14/97, Judith Campbell wrote:

 

 

> http://www.creativeloafing.com/newsstand/current/v_bill.htm

 

this WSB synopsis is a real send up.  Slams Burroughs for just about

everything except for humor and a good reading voice.  Oh, and Naked Lunch.

Author liked that one, the rest are shit apparently.  Will gladly post or

forward as needed.

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:01:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: PLEASE MR. JOHNSON

Comments: To: love_singing@msn.com, jwhite333@sprintmail.com, jamesstauffer

          <stauffer@pacbell.net>

 

Gots to get some nice mail to you i worked on today. still on trip. dance

till 2-4 in the a.m to Luthur Allison, Elmore James and Big Joe Turner. Over

and over again baby, that old and backporch slide once in a while a good

blues sob with 'em good  then put on my old lps to send messages. Chet Baker

singing old junk gone saddle oxfords and 48 ford conv. juck seater girl

heartbreack and now its more heart to break. and  put on James Carr's "At the

Dark End of the Street" and some funk great earl hooker. even some george

jones oldies. that's really booze bawlin'

 

But every night. I wear those cd's out..can't stop...plus my baby's gone. the

one who drove me to Kansas and my other, Sherri, has hopped that plane and

gone.

Please Mr. Johnson....don't play the blues soo sad.

Spark the spirit

luv

cp

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:41:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lowell Kerouac organizers

 

I have ended this kind of crap! It went out with greasy funded french fries.

Who wants to see Kerouac's Lowell in that kind of crowd, anyway?

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 14 Aug 1997 23:58:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Please Mr. Johnson

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Well, Charles, a wise sage named Jimi Hendrix once said:

 

"loneliness is such a drag"

 

"Well the morining is dead,

And the day is too"

 

but i say,

 

when you wake up in the moring,

and there ain't nothing you can do,

you know you got

dem Robert Johnson, dead shrimps, no ride, pass me by, on the riverside,

lien on my body, mortgage on my soul, hellhound on my trail, hot tamale,

chocolate malt, rosedale, no body seemed to know me, beatl blues!!!

 

Our thoughts and/or prayers are with you beatl blues buddy Richard.

Wish I could be there for that bag pipe jam.  Not to mention the old

band shell.  Should I bring my SG, or the Yamaha acoustic?

 

Peace to WSB, peace to Luther, and peace to all of us.

 

Think maybe Neal and Jack are diggin on Jimi, Luther and Train wailing

throughout the universe.  I figure Bill is just taking it all in.  I

guess they might let Miles sit in, eh?

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:41:26 +0000

Reply-To:     letabor@cruzio.com

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <letabor@mail.cruzio.com>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      The Suedeutsche Zeitung obit in English, close, not perfect tran

 

From:                 Self <Leon>

To:                     BEAT-L@CNYVM>CNY>EDU

Subject:           The Second German obit approximately translated

Send reply to:    letabor@cruzio.com

Date sent:            Fri, 15 Aug 1997 02:15:15

 

 What a hatchet  job! Note the title "Bill the Ripper". Her

 Winkler

says that Burroughs was a crazy man, or maybe

just an american.  Here comes another pseudo translation. Glad

to oblige Fred. Receiving thanks from Bill Gargan alone made it

worth doing. I am serious, Bill.

 

BTW some of you Beat Heads will be interested that the Cassady

home on Bancroft in Los Gatos,  ( I also lived there with them

in 62 and 63),  the house that Neil bought with the Railroad

accident money, was demolished today. Unfortunately John learned

about it only yesterday. It might have been another wake

occasion for us around here. Here is the Sueddeutsche Zeitung:

 

 

Bill The Ripper

 

At the death of America's prop holyman (?)

William S. Burroughs

 

Dear children, please do not imitate! According to eyewitness

reports it was only a party game. But while in the bowl proved

to be peyote and marijuana, Burroughs planted an apple upon the

head of his wife, played William Tell and shot. The appel

survived the play but Joan Vollmer was dead on the spot. Halfway

sensible people would now leave alone the fixing and the kief

and never again touch a weapon, but William Burroughs blew

himself up (?) further, what could be gotten with psychedelics.

In the introduction to Naked lunch (1959) he spoke of an

addiction that lasted 45 years; whoever visited him in the last

years had to first of all shoot tin cans. The man was plain to

see crazy.

 

Or American. Here he stood in 1990 on the stage of the Thalia

theater in Hamburg near Robert Wilson and Lou Reed, desperate in

his bookkeeper suit, a  shrieveled grandfather, wrinkled and

scraggy to the smallest knuckle, no longer from this world, but

paced in his bodily shape (?), a funny pillar (?) of the

avantgarde, who  had survived everything. His Musical Black

Rider was performed, a free defense (?) story - and again a

deadly bullet from love.

 

William Seward Burroughs, born 1914 in St. Louis as a son of

manufacturers, was really born for better things. Like his

landsman T. S. Elliot a quarter century before he went to

Harvard to study, then to Europe, but during that time he turned

around and made his enmity with the nightmare  America. He

presented himself one nice day to the FBI and wanted to become a

secret agent. They sensibly turned him away. In response

(substitution) he became addicted to drugs and lived alone in

permanent fear of the police. One like Burroughs was born for

the great American Paranoia.

 

With the obstinance of his ancestors - these money earners and

strict moralist pillars of the community -, with the same

obstinacy Burroughs sought out every mania of this earthy (?)

world , lounged around in Tangiers, where he didn't tolerate the

sun, wrote even though he didn't know how and from what he would

make a living, he wrote in an intoxicated fit, like a maniac.

 

They are pretty hard to read, his books, cut up, he broke up his

texts into pieces until they were totally incomprehensible.

Repeatedly gathered anew  and scattered again right away. But

did so much insanity need  any method altogether? It should be

"pure meat", wrote to him his friend Alen Ginsberg in the book

"without symbolic sause". Woe to anyone who sees symbols in his

thousand-feeted, half animals and three quarter monsters!

Everything flesh from America's flesh, the plain truth, as

Burroughs saw it in madness. "I am", he assures, " I am only a

recording tool."

 

Roland Barthes harped extensively over the zero point (freezing

point?), where  literature in 1960 ostensibly found itself,  but

Burroughs didn't just describe that point, instead he pricked it

all the time, undertook constantly new experiments, he tore up

himself and his texts. The writer in his best quality as

slasher, withdrawal (drug addiction) treatments were then

necessary, one time by Dr. Wilhelm Reich, then by L. Ron

Hubbard, but neither the orgon machine nor the scientology

helped. And so he found himself after two wifes and one son

back at the pleasures of youth, to the memory of the first

stolen grips in strangers'  undewrwear.  Against so much life

the work does not hold up, for the one reason alone, because

after the early books it became method. But from Velvet

Underground because of Patti Smith until Kurt Cobain they

followed him - and wasn't he holy (a saint?)

 

In New York he entrenched himself in his small room in the

Bowery, four-fold bolted to protect himself from the tramps and

junkies outside, who could possibly overpower the old infirm

man, while he inside surrounded by swords, revolvers and porno

notebooks, painted how it was, to be overtaken by these wild

fellows.

 

In the end he returned to the middle west, to his xenophobes,to

the god fearing fellow citizens, fanatic like them and no less

paranoid. They knew precisely that the communists (alternatively

the jews, the catholics) poisoned the drinking water, or that

the CIA bred the aids virus in order to mess up all of humanity.

Burroughs collected all these stories and weighed them in his

heart. Then he shot again at his tin cans.

 

But please, dear children, not to immitate at home! Saturday

the good american William S. Burroughs, in Lawrence (Kansas),

at  the age of 83 years, died.

 

 

Willi Winkler

 

 

leon

Leon Tabory

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 05:43:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> Well, Charles, a wise sage named Jimi Hendrix once said:

> 

> "loneliness is such a drag"

> 

> "Well the morining is dead,

> And the day is too"

> 

> but i say,

> 

> when you wake up in the moring,

> and there ain't nothing you can do,

> you know you got

> dem Robert Johnson, dead shrimps, no ride, pass me by, on the riverside,

> lien on my body, mortgage on my soul, hellhound on my trail, hot tamale,

> chocolate malt, rosedale, no body seemed to know me, beatl blues!!!

> 

> Our thoughts and/or prayers are with you beatl blues buddy Richard.

> Wish I could be there for that bag pipe jam.  Not to mention the old

> band shell.  Should I bring my SG, or the Yamaha acoustic?

> 

> Peace to WSB, peace to Luther, and peace to all of us.

> 

> Think maybe Neal and Jack are diggin on Jimi, Luther and Train wailing

> throughout the universe.  I figure Bill is just taking it all in.  I

> guess they might let Miles sit in, eh?

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

lets not forget the "i followed her to the station with suitcase in my

hand - love in vain" blues . . .

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:52:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      New!!!! The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Well. . .back from a trip to the Long Island Vineyards I have finally

finished the second Kerouac Quarterly and a brand new web page. This page

will highlight the latest goings-on in the Kerouac world . . .things to look

for in the future. Book reviews on Some of the Dharma, latest publishing

ventures, and whatever pops up in the future. If anyone has any news please

let us know here at the quarterly for all to see. Also, details about our

second issue. . .50 pp. in all. The Kerouac Quarterly can be visited at:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

 

Thanks, and bookmark the page! I will try to keep this as updated as possible.

Paul of TKQ. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:27:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      WSB Journals

Comments: cc: dan@pint.com

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

it's always reassuring to know

that if I want the latest WSB info

I only need be subscribed to the

patti smith list

 

props to Dan Whitworth for da post

-Douglas

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

From: Dan Whitworth <dan@pint.com>

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: WSB journals

 

The current New Yorker (Aug. 18 issue) features 2 pages of excerpts from

William Burrough's journals -- various entries from this spring up to August

1, the day of his heart attack. (And no, it doesn't suddenly trail off at

the end...) Plus Mapplethorpe's portrait of WSB in profile, eyes closed,

hands grasped (from mid or  late '80s).

 

Now we wait for the inevitable Rolling Stone tribute, I suppose.

 

Later,

Dan W

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 08:31:59 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

In-Reply-To:  <33F432D1.58FF@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 3:43 AM -0700 8/15/97, RACE --- wrote:

 

 

> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> >

> > Well, Charles, a wise sage named Jimi Hendrix once said:

> >

> > "loneliness is such a drag"

 

<snip>

 

> lets not forget the "i followed her to the station with suitcase in my

> hand - love in vain" blues . . .

 

 

yeah, and how about the

"waiting by the telephone, toothpaste in my mouth blues

she ain't ever gonna call, might as well rinse blues

might as well shave, might as well shower

come on momma, give us a call blues

 

 

 

 

anybody interested in doing a tape swap??  David?

 

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

Douglas  [[headed to Lala tonight, to see my gal

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:45:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Theory about Burroughs death

In-Reply-To:  <l03020900b01a25534c32@[208.193.147.146]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

Heard an interesting theory about Burroughs death.  Specifically, it has

been theorized that he lost his will to live, because the great love of

his life (at least in his mind) was Allen Ginsberg and Allen died a few

months earlier.  And so he lost the will to live.

 

If you ever read Burroughs "Selected Letters", most of it was

correspondence between Burroughs and Ginsberg, and it is plainly clear

that Burroughs was obsessed with Ginsberg.  Living in exile in Tangiers

in the 50's, Burroughs was lonely and isolated and fell in love with

Allen through a long correspondence.  He returned to the states and was

intending to go live in San Francisco and start a life with Allen, when

Allen finally made it clear that he was *not* in love him.  Apparently,

through the years, Allen had to deal at various times with Burroughs

obsession over him.

 

Anyway its not inconceivable, given the timing of both men's deaths,that

in some way, Burroughs was still in love with Allen at the timeof his

death.  That he felt such a strong connection with Allen, that when Allen

died, there was an emptiness he couldnt deal with and he was finally

ready to die himself.

 

Perhaps, inside that cynical old body, was the heart of a hopeless

romantic who never stopped longing for the love he could never have.

 

 

RJW

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:04:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Kerouac Quarterly Page updated !!!!

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

The Kerouac Quarterly Page has been updated to include details on the sale

of Edie Kerouac Parker's personal Beat library from her estate.

 

Have a ball y'all!!!!

 

Bookmark to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:49:58 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Theory about Burroughs death

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:45:11 -0400 from

              <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

 

It's real romantic but I don't think it's true.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:53:27 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

runner wrote:

> 

> At 3:43 AM -0700 8/15/97, RACE --- wrote:

> 

> > R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > >

> > > Well, Charles, a wise sage named Jimi Hendrix once said:

> > >

> > > "loneliness is such a drag"

> 

> <snip>

> 

> > lets not forget the "i followed her to the station with suitcase in my

> > hand - love in vain" blues . . .

> 

> yeah, and how about the

> "waiting by the telephone, toothpaste in my mouth blues

> she ain't ever gonna call, might as well rinse blues

> might as well shave, might as well shower

> come on momma, give us a call blues

> 

> anybody interested in doing a tape swap??  David?

> 

> >

> > david rhaesa

> > salina, Kansas

> 

> Douglas  [[headed to Lala tonight, to see my gal

> 

> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

> step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

>         ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

> super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

 

i was talking another robert johnson song.  tape swaps???  hmm.  i don't

have dual cassette technology.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:03:59 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Theory about Burroughs death

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Bill Gargan wrote:

> 

> It's real romantic but I don't think it's true.

 

More likely that Fletch's death Affected him.  i believe that some

research suggests more than merely a romantic connection of pets to

health.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:07:09 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      patti smith list name, etc

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997081511505586@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hey yall

i was wondering if anyone out there might be able to send me some info on

how to subscribe to the patti smith list that i read so much about in

these parts. sounds like something i should check out & if anyone out

there can help i would really appreciate it. (then again i already receive

enuf mail to keep me busy, ah well)

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 09:22:45 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: patti smith list name, etc

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

ha, my fiendish plan has worked...  ;-)

but of course, I don't have the subscription info here at work

but if you head over to:

 

        http://www.oceanstar.com/patti/

 

you should find all you need to know

(check under mailing list, I believe)

there's also a site-specific search engine

and while I haven't done this yet,

one should be able to conduct beat-specific

searches, Douglas

 

>----------

>From:  Derek A. Beaulieu[SMTP:dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA]

>Sent:  Friday, August 15, 1997 9:07 AM

>To:    BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:       patti smith list name, etc

> 

>hey yall

>i was wondering if anyone out there might be able to send me some info on

>how to subscribe to the patti smith list that i read so much about in

>these parts. sounds like something i should check out & if anyone out

>there can help i would really appreciate it. (then again i already receive

>enuf mail to keep me busy, ah well)

>yrs

>derek

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 01:08:31 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Theory about Burroughs death

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

RACE --- wrote:

> 

> More likely that Fletch's death Affected him.  i believe that some

> research suggests more than merely a romantic connection of pets to

> health.

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

You know I thought the same exact thing when I heard Fletch had died a

couple of weeks before.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:14:58 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Theory about Burroughs death

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

there's more mystery than we thought

deep caverns of pets and animals

sucking silently

oh deep tendrils, mmm sweet chastity

pent-up frustrations

harbor dwells

 

how many nights would I have died

without my loyal pets

<ahem> by my side?

 

 

 

I know my grandmother, when granddad died, lost her will to live.  "No

more salt," we'd say.  "No more coffee," we'd say.  "Take your vitamins,

do your exercises," we'd say.  And then that look in her eyes.  She

wanted to die.  Oh, I know that look.  A succinct haiku that said fuck

you, I'm dyin.

 

We all cried.  Who can say if this happened to WSB?  I know I tried to

say that I loved her.  That I'd be there for her.  She didn't listen.

She died.  Grandma, I miss you...

 

Douglas

 

>----------

>From:  Diane Carter[SMTP:dcarter@TOGETHER.NET]

>Sent:  Friday, August 15, 1997 1:08 AM

>To:    BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:       Re: Theory about Burroughs death

> 

>RACE --- wrote:

>> 

>> More likely that Fletch's death Affected him.  i believe that some

>> research suggests more than merely a romantic connection of pets to

>> health.

>> 

>> david rhaesa

>> salina, Kansas

> 

>You know I thought the same exact thing when I heard Fletch had died a

>couple of weeks before.

>DC

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:08:31 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Shannon L. Stephens" <shanstep@CS.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject:      Searching

In-Reply-To:  <33F31314.2157@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

My thanks to all who have taken the time to give me a little info as I

start an investigation that I hope continues for a very long time.

 

Many of you have taken a minute to share things that you have been drawn

to. That is exactly what I was looking for. Diane's post re: the

spiritual "motivations" of the beats is primarily why I shared my

question with the list.

 

My search for inhanced spirituality (and isn't it a shame that words do

very little to elaborate on what that may mean) is not limited to my

finding a "religion" in which to drown my sense of self. I have already

been exposed to that and in fact, that type of education in early life

separated me from any spiritual pursuits thus far.

 

I don't like using terms that seem to over define what I'm doing. I have

reached a point where I want to feel more alive... different levels. I've

had musical suggestions as well as text. All of things make up the

components of what I believe to be a full sensual life. Hell, if someone

suggested a great restaurant I'd give that a thought too. Nobody can

place someone's hand in the grasp of "god", but people on this list have

a knack for openness which I believe to be first and foremost the most

important aspect of spirituality. It's a search, a process. Thanks again

to those of you with the heart to share the two cents.

 

My question helped me to devour a bunch of pages of on the road last

night. Maybe I am becomming more open as well.

 

-shannon (nights thick with rain and electricity, temperatures going

down, expectations for a desert colorless yet joyful fall ahead...)

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:22:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last <Becca91894@AOL.COM>

Subject:      see ya later

 

i hope i'm doing this right.

 

unsubcribe beat-L__rebecca last

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 14:34:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Theory about Burroughs death

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970815113103.11569A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:

 

> Heard an interesting theory about Burroughs death.  Specifically, it has

> been theorized that he lost his will to live, because the great love of

> his life (at least in his mind) was Allen Ginsberg and Allen died a few

> months earlier.  And so he lost the will to live.

 

Recently lost one of his cats, too, though I suspect others more close to

him will have more to say on this subject. In retrospect, I do think it odd

that I chose a sample of his ("When death becomes you...") as part of my

contribution to a net-based tape loop project going on in the weeks just

before his death. All those unsuspecting tape recorders playing this

message, just before he died -- hmm, I wonder if he would have gotten a kick

out of that.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 11:55:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: see ya later

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 02:22 PM 8/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

>i hope i'm doing this right.

> 

>unsubcribe beat-L__rebecca last

> 

> 

 

No.

 

I believe you need to send it to listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

 

also don't put in the __

 

you'd send

 

unsubscribe beat-l Rebecca Last

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:00:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Burroughs and Ginsberg

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Regarding the speculation about Burroughs loving Ginsberg, the diary entries

in the New Yorker offer some interesting grist for this mill.

 

May 5, Monday

Allen died April 5, 1997.

        Is it not fine to

        Dance and Sing

        While the bell of

        Death do ring?

        Turn on the toe

        Sing out Hey Nanny Noo

If I should die think only this of me. That there's some corner of a foreign

field that is forever: Tangier; Mexico, D.F.; St. Louis, Mo.;...........

 

So why bother? You are old, Father William. Why stand on your head?

 

June 4, Wednesday

"J'aime ces types vicieux, qu'ici montrent la bite." I like the vicious

types who show the cock here. Anonymous, outside pissoir in Paris.

 

"Is it not fine to dance and sing while the bells of death do ring to turn

on toe and sing hey nanny noo." Yes I love life in all its variety but at

last the bell ringeth to eventide.

 

        No mention of Fletch....who was one of his cats?

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 12:34:06 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: see ya later

 

----------

From:   FIRST_Rebecca LAST_ Last[SMTP:Becca91894@AOL.COM]

Sent:   Friday, August 15, 1997 11:22 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        see ya later

 

i hope i'm doing this right.

 

unsubcribe beat-L__rebecca last

.-

 

 

 

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end

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:29:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

Comments: To: jwhite333@sprintmail.com

 

Thanks Bentz

Read yr post at the right moment. thanks. Robert Johnson always there.'ve

been playing that old bobbie=sox juncky, Chet Baker's songs over and over

today. "there will never be another you,"  "I get along without you very well

(of course I do)"... and "My Buddy" My Funny Valentine."  I'm trying to kick

everything, today. Even Love. I've been drinking a bile cat's claw tea bark

and diet coke mixture. Not as bad as peyote juice though. The idea is to have

some nasty to remind me of the toxins i put in my system. I'm also drinking

"Ensure" which Beat-l member Mike supplied me (many). It tastes like

decontaminated, processes and sweetened baby shit! The idea of all this taste

and stomach distress, is, I guess, so my heart will direct its pity to my

guts!!!!!!!   Now there's one for you. Anyway, I decided only a  aged

suicidal maniac would listen to Chet Baker over and over, so I'll find my

Robert Johnson. Or maybe Mississippi Joe Callicot.."You don't know my

mind"..Ya

 

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:55:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Sun Lao Tze

 

By God that Tuscon heat is enough to do it every time! I used to take  Peyote

there in my ritual northest of town out toward that facade cowboy town. Walk

out there barefoot an lie on a rock. The stone is cold and moist in

its manifest part, and in its hidden part is hot and dry

Seek the coldness of the moon and you shall find the heat of the sun.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:00:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

 

In a message dated 97-08-15 06:45:39 EDT, you write:

 

<< lets not forget the "i followed her to the station with suitcase in my

 hand - love in vain" blues . . .

  >>

Ah yes,  and "I keep folding up inside just like the clothes I'm folding"

-George Jones

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:05:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

 

"Every time I pack ,I doulbe up inside just like the clothes I'm folding/"

was the line from George Jones

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:17:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

 

In a message dated 97-08-15 13:00:15 EDT, you write:

 

<< 

 anybody interested in doing a tape swap??  David? >>

Oh yeah..why didn't you tell me in lawrence, and i'd have dumped a whole

bunch of never to be assembled again rarities.. cp

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:22:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: in search of western lands

 

The number of dead animals on the road is something i've been remorsing with

too, it's a sign

as far as C.C. right on. Finkout.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:48:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

> Thanks Bentz

> Read yr post at the right moment. thanks. Robert Johnson always

> there.'ve

> been playing that old bobbie=sox juncky, Chet Baker's songs over and

> over

> today. "there will never be another you,"  "I get along without you

> very well

> (of course I do)"... and "My Buddy" My Funny Valentine."  I'm trying

> to kick

> everything, today. Even Love. I've been drinking a bile cat's claw tea

> bark

> and diet coke mixture. Not as bad as peyote juice though. The idea is

> to have

> some nasty to remind me of the toxins i put in my system. I'm also

> drinking

> "Ensure" which Beat-l member Mike supplied me (many). It tastes like

> decontaminated, processes and sweetened baby shit! The idea of all

> this taste

> and stomach distress, is, I guess, so my heart will direct its pity to

> my

> guts!!!!!!!   Now there's one for you. Anyway, I decided only a  aged

> suicidal maniac would listen to Chet Baker over and over, so I'll find

> my

> Robert Johnson. Or maybe Mississippi Joe Callicot.."You don't know my

> mind"..Ya

> 

> Charles Plymell

 

 Charles:

 

I must say that I enjoy your company, even on the www.  I hope to visit

with you one day.  But, I will bring my own food!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Try

some Colt 45 or Country Club Malt liquor.  That will knock it out, and

cold.  Me, I take a Bud or a Beck's these days.

 

Going down the road feeling bad,

Going down the road feeling bad,

Going down the road feeling bad, Lord Lord,

Ain't gonna be treated thisaway.

 

She can break in on a dollar most anywhere she goes

 

And from the Alpha of the Allman Brothers:

 

I fell like I been tied to the whipping post,

Good lord I feel like I'm dying.

 

And from the Omega of the Allman Brothers:

 

Nobody left to run with anymore.

 

Figure you can feel both of those blues.  Take a listen,

 

And damn, how can your system tolerate that much Chet.  He was a sad sad

case, beautiful and could play, but sad, sad sad.

 

Allmans one more time:

 

Just one more morning,

I've got to wake up with the blues,

Get my self together,

And put on my walking shoes,

Cause I hunger

For those dreams, I've never seen.

 

And to my main man Van Morrison:

 

Call me up in dream land,

Radio to me Sam,

Get your message to me

Any way you can,

Never to grow old,

On the saxaphone,

 

In my own words:

 

Death's Hand is a Loser

(For Patricia and Charles who have lost a friend.)

(For Richard who has lost a blues man.)

 

 

When the cards are dealt,

Death's hand is a loser.

And loss is with us.

Beyond this we can not say.

But have you seen death alive?

No. The losing hand.

And what is that.

It is loss.

And what is that.

Loss is gone,

But you're here.

Loss is selfish,

What you're missing.

Loss is true,

What you need.

Loss is false,

The illusion.

Loss is hurt,

Part is gone.

Loss is maddness,

Unresolved, broken.

Loss is death,

Part of you too.

Loss is gain,

Winter blends to Spring.

Loss is broken,

Knowing feelings never come again.

Loss is us,

Born to die to birth again.

A touch, a glance,

A calm reassurance.

A certainty, now uncertain.

A feeling spinning thorough cosmic dust.

Creating, playing, play on.

Play on jazz man,

Play on blues man,

Play on Chet,

Rave on Charles,

Rave on madman,

Rave on Charles,

Rave on Angel,

Rave on Buddy Holly,

Rave on P,

Rave on sunflowers,

Rave on cats,

Rave on James,

Rave on Bill,

Rave on Allen,

Rave on Jack,

Rave on Neal,

Rave on Junkie,

Rave on Junky,

Rave on Bull Lee,

Rave on Sherri,

Rave on James,

Rave on Charles,

Rave on Arthur,

Rave on Roland Kirk,

Rave on Richard,

Rave on Luther,

Rave on Miles,

Rave on Train,

Rave on Jesus,

Rave on Judas,

Rave, rave, rave, rave, rant, rave, rave, rave, rave,

Rave on me.

 

 

 

Take care,

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:02:55 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

 

          Hello Bentz:

somewhere in between reading your last

post ("Death's hand is a loser...") and

listening to Blonde On Blonde I managed

to see a bright side to....things.

 

          Here's to a great weekend-to

you and everyone on the list.

 

                                               Chimera

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:04:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: in search of western lands

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C wrote:

 

><<The number of dead animals on the road is something i've been remorsing

>with too, it's a sign

>as far as C.C. right on. Finkout.

>> 

 

you're being poetic cryptic again, Charles.  p l e a s e translate.

 

the C.C. part reminds me of broken headlights...

 

 

>> C. Plymell

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:17:44 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      ferling, etc

In-Reply-To:  <c=US%a=_%p=OEES%l=SD-MAIL-970815220410Z-1943@sd-mail.sd.oees.com>

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yall

i was just wondering if anyone knew when ferlinghetti's newest book of

poems was due (wasnt there some talk about him writing a book of poems

that was a "reply" (or something along those lines) to _a coney island of

the mind_?) also- is he witing or solely involved with painting/sketching

(which i understand he's emphasizing these days) and running city lights?

thanks for info, etc

bahoo.

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:14:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Carl Jung prophesy c/o Burroughs

 

from Albany, NY September, 1909

 

Everything is too big, too immeasurable.  Something that has gradually been

dawning upon me in the past few days is the recognition that here an ideal

potentiality of life has become reality.  Men are as well off here as the

culture permits; women badly off.  We have seen things here that inspire

enthusiastic admiration, and things that make one ponder social evolution

deeply. As far as technological culture is concerned, we lag miles behind

America.  But all that is frightfully costly and already carries the germ of

the end in itself. -- Carl Jung - Memories, Dreams, Reflections

 

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:28:36 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson, Hand Me a Winner

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Bentz, I've remixed your poem.

 

This goes against all conventions, I know.  and I'm sorry if this

version offends you in any way.  I like the hustler card game images,

the ranting and raving, the thrufare reethum of it all.  Let me know

what you think.  Since, Douglas

 

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

 

 

R Bentz writ,

runner mixed:

(v8/15/97)

 

>In my own words:  <ahem>

> 

>Death's Hand is a Loser

>(For Patricia and Charles who have lost a friend.)

>(For Richard who has lost a blues man.)

 

 

>When loss is with us

we can not say

>the cards are dealt,

>Death's hand is a loser.

 

>And .

>Beyond this .

The losing hand is what

>No. .

>And It is that loss.

hav[ing] seen death alive

>But  you  ?

> 

>And what is that.

>Loss is gone,

>But you're here.

>Loss is selfish,

>What you're missing.

>Loss is true,

>What you need.

>Loss is false,

>The illusion.

>Loss is hurt,

>Part is gone.

 

 

>Unresolved, broken.

 

>Loss is Loss is Loss is

>Loss is

>Loss is us,

> 

        maddness,

        death,

        Part of you too.

         gain,

         broken,

 

>Winter blends to Spring.

>Knowing feelings never come again.

>Born to die to birth again.

>A touch, a glance,

>A calm reassurance.

>A certainty, now uncertain.

>A feeling spinning thorough cosmic dust.

>Creating, playing, play on.

Rave on

 

 

>Play on Play on Play on

> 

>       jazz man,

>        Chet,

>         blues man,

 

>Rave on Rave on Rave on

> 

>       Charles,

>        madman,

>         Charles,

 

>Rave on

 

>Angel, P, Buddy Holly,

> 

> 

>Rave on

 

>Rave on

 

 

>Rave on sunflowers, cats,

>Rave on

>Rave on James,

>Rave on Bill,

 

>Rave on

 

 

>       Allen,

>        Jack,

        Neal,

        Junkie,

>       Junky,

        Rave on Bull Lee,

 

>Rave on

>Rave on

>Rave on

>Rave on Sherri,

>Rave on James,

>Rave on Charles,

>Rave on Arthur,

 

 

 

>Rave

 

 

 

 

>on Roland Kirk,

> Richard,

> Luther,

> Miles,

> Rave on Train,

 

>Rave on Jesus,

>Judas, (Rave on)

> 

>Rave, rave, rave, rave, rant, rave, rave, rave, rave,

>Rave on me.

(Rave on Rave on Rave on )

> 

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:31:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      green tit

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

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from Last Words (New Yorker p37):

 

<< 

May 24, Saturday,

 

[snip] A few drags on the green tit and I can see multiple ways out and

beyond.  so why all this head on this harmless and rewarding substance?

>> 

 

problem I have with marijuana is that it occasionally leaves me

jellyfish, pocked with enough holes I feel beehived.  sure it brings the

rain, eases the pain, and generally lights up my life.  sure.  then

there are days that that suffer upon fools their fate.

 

and talking to people, fixating on objects outside the self.  walking

around with my hands high low.  the air parting my lips in stuttered

thoughts.  just another asshole flapping his lips, I figure.

 

that's what's wrong, Mr. Burroughs.

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:35:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson, Hand Me a Winner

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Douglas:

 

Thank you.  Does this qualify as a cut up?

 

Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

 

> Bentz, I've remixed your poem.

> 

> This goes against all conventions, I know.  and I'm sorry if this

> version offends you in any way.  I like the hustler card game images,

> the ranting and raving, the thrufare reethum of it all.  Let me know

> what you think.  Since, Douglas

> 

> +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

> 

> R Bentz writ,

> runner mixed:

> (v8/15/97)

> 

> >In my own words:  <ahem>

> >

> >Death's Hand is a Loser

> >(For Patricia and Charles who have lost a friend.)

> >(For Richard who has lost a blues man.)

> 

> >When loss is with us

> we can not say

> >the cards are dealt,

> >Death's hand is a loser.

> 

> >And .

> >Beyond this .

> The losing hand is what

> >No. .

> >And It is that loss.

> hav[ing] seen death alive

> >But  you  ?

> >

> >And what is that.

> >Loss is gone,

> >But you're here.

> >Loss is selfish,

> >What you're missing.

> >Loss is true,

> >What you need.

> >Loss is false,

> >The illusion.

> >Loss is hurt,

> >Part is gone.

> 

> >Unresolved, broken.

> 

> >Loss is Loss is Loss is

> >Loss is

> >Loss is us,

> >

>         maddness,

>         death,

>         Part of you too.

>          gain,

>          broken,

> 

> >Winter blends to Spring.

> >Knowing feelings never come again.

> >Born to die to birth again.

> >A touch, a glance,

> >A calm reassurance.

> >A certainty, now uncertain.

> >A feeling spinning thorough cosmic dust.

> >Creating, playing, play on.

> Rave on

> 

> >Play on Play on Play on

> >

> >       jazz man,

> >        Chet,

> >         blues man,

> 

> >Rave on Rave on Rave on

> >

> >       Charles,

> >        madman,

> >         Charles,

> 

> >Rave on

> 

> >Angel, P, Buddy Holly,

> >

> >

> >Rave on

> 

> >Rave on

> 

> >Rave on sunflowers, cats,

> >Rave on

> >Rave on James,

> >Rave on Bill,

> 

> >Rave on

> 

> >       Allen,

> >        Jack,

>         Neal,

>         Junkie,

> >       Junky,

>         Rave on Bull Lee,

> 

> >Rave on

> >Rave on

> >Rave on

> >Rave on Sherri,

> >Rave on James,

> >Rave on Charles,

> >Rave on Arthur,

> 

> >Rave

> 

> >on Roland Kirk,

> > Richard,

> > Luther,

> > Miles,

> > Rave on Train,

> 

> >Rave on Jesus,

> >Judas, (Rave on)

> >

> >Rave, rave, rave, rave, rant, rave, rave, rave, rave,

> >Rave on me.

> (Rave on Rave on Rave on )

> >

> >

> >

 

 

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:49:28 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson, Hand Me a Winner

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Bentz writ:

 

<< 

>Douglas:

> 

>Thank you.  Does this qualify as a cut up?

>> 

 

or a fuckup.  Stole the idea from my friend Annabelle who did the same

thing to me once.  Took my email and snipped and tucked it into a new

machine.  Have been reading a little bit more about surrealism recently,

but haven't really absorbed anything that would allow me to be

definitive regarding a name for this process.

 

cut-up works.

 

have a bunch of those magnet poem words on my fridge.  can't figure out

for the life of me what to do with em.  On other people's fridges, they

are easy to spit and parse.  But my own works....  so, I steal and

borrow and beg my influences most of the time.  If anything, if you take

a given work and dice it up like I did yours, then you have to figure

out what to do with all the *extra* pieces.  As well, when you <ahem>

deconstruct a work, you get a chance --as that anarchist's WSB .sig

says-- to see what message the recorder was playin.

 

and I'm still rereading both versions.  goin for the big picture.  glad

you liked it.  Was a bit worried how you'd receive.  Now if only we

could put it to music.... a fast, choppy chorus <perhaps> with lots of

bridges and transitions, but but .... with a really cool Leonard Cohen

"hallelujah" overall feel to it.  ???

 

Douglas

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=

>Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

> 

>> Bentz, I've remixed your poem.

>> 

 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:56:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson, Hand Me a Winner

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Penn, Douglas, K wrote:

 

> Bentz writ:

> 

> <<

> >Douglas:

> >

> >Thank you.  Does this qualify as a cut up?

> >>

> 

> or a fuckup.  Stole the idea from my friend Annabelle who did the same

> 

> thing to me once.  Took my email and snipped and tucked it into a new

> machine.  Have been reading a little bit more about surrealism

> recently,

> but haven't really absorbed anything that would allow me to be

> definitive regarding a name for this process.

> 

> cut-up works.

> 

> have a bunch of those magnet poem words on my fridge.  can't figure

> out

> for the life of me what to do with em.  On other people's fridges,

> they

> are easy to spit and parse.  But my own works....  so, I steal and

> borrow and beg my influences most of the time.  If anything, if you

> take

> a given work and dice it up like I did yours, then you have to figure

> out what to do with all the *extra* pieces.  As well, when you <ahem>

> deconstruct a work, you get a chance --as that anarchist's WSB .sig

> says-- to see what message the recorder was playin.

> 

> and I'm still rereading both versions.  goin for the big picture.

> glad

> you liked it.  Was a bit worried how you'd receive.  Now if only we

> could put it to music.... a fast, choppy chorus <perhaps> with lots of

> 

> bridges and transitions, but but .... with a really cool Leonard Cohen

> 

> "hallelujah" overall feel to it.  ???

> 

> Douglas

 

Maybe kind of like "So Long Marianne"?

 

--

 

Peace,

 

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:02:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: ferling, etc

 

Derek et al -

 

The Ferlinghetti book you mention is already out -

It's a hardcover titled "A Far Rockaway of the Heart" from New Directions.

The price is $21.95. (shipping included) -

We've got plenty of copies in stock -

 

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

 

Did you get your Beat-L T-shirt yet?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:08:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson, Hand Me a Winner

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Bentz wrote:

 

>> Maybe kind of like "So Long Marianne"?

 

 

Don't know that one.  Why don't you hum a few bars.  Hell, if we lived

closer, we could probably burn a few bars, cutup style.  We'll give CP

some peyote and make him drive  ;-)  <<wicked evil grin>>

 

> Douglas

 

>--

> 

>Peace,

> 

>Bentz

>bocelts@scsn.net

>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:03:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

...or "We didn't know what to call it

        So we called it quits...."

 

                Antoine

 

        **************

 

>In a message dated 97-08-15 06:45:39 EDT, you write:

> 

><< lets not forget the "i followed her to the station with suitcase in my

> hand - love in vain" blues . . .

>  >>

>Ah yes,  and "I keep folding up inside just like the clothes I'm folding"

>-George Jones

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:47:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

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Thought the text further on was a great description of Kerouac:

 

        I've read the parts in "On The Road" that refer to Jack and Neal

watching Slim Gaillard in clubs, so it was interesting finding this

interview, with Slim talking about Jackl. Anyone who hasn't had a chance to

hear him on record, search him out.

 

        He was one of a small group of unique performers that straddled the

Bebop / Beat era. They included Harry 'the Hipster' Gibson, Richard 'Lord'

Buckley, Babs Gonzales, Leo Watson, Lenny Bruce, King Pleasure cooking up a

melange of songs, spoken word, great performance, vocalese, scat....all

intersecting with each other.

 

These quotes are from a large format paperback pictorial called "The Hip:

Hipsters, Jazz and the Beat Generation". Published in England in 1986 by

Faber & Faber; written by three well known English music journalists, Roy

Carr, Brian Case and Fred Dellar.

 

*****Slim Gaillard on Jack Kerouac**********

 

'Having Jack write about me in "On The Road" is a nice thing to have on your

report card.

'He was a great listener=85really admired my work...

 

        ....When I played "The Say When Club" in San Francisco, Jack showed

up every night.=85would stand with his back against the wall and while he

listened all the girls would cruise by and admire him.  Between sets, I'd

stand there right next to him.  We were both so sharp we made a Gillette

blade look like a hammer.

 

'There was one girl =97 owned two-thirds of Palm Springs =97 who'd keep=

 telling

me, "Slim, you're the most fantastic guy I=92ve ever seen!" Anyway, I wasn't

about to argue=85Then, one night when I came to the club, there was a key on

the piano with my name on it. She'd gone out and bought me a brand new car

as a little token=85hey! It's good to be handsome!'

He laughed, wiped up the remains of the eggs with bread roll, and chased it

all down with a bottle of Perrier.

 

******from "On the Road"*******

 

        Now Dean [Moriarty] approached him, he approached his God: he

thought Slim [Gaillard] was God: he shuffled and bowed in front of him and

asked him to join us.

 

        'Right-orooni', says Slim; he'll join anybody but won't guarantee to

be with you in spirit. Dean got a table, bought drinks, and sat stiffly in

front of Slim. Slim dreamed over his head. Every time Slim said, 'Orooni,'

Dean said, 'Yes!'

 

        I sat there with these two madmen. Nothing happened. To Slim

Gaillard the whole world was just one big orooni.

 

*******from Miles Davis*******

 

        "There are only two men that I look up to...

        Slim Gaillard and Dizzy Gillespie. Without them I wouldn't be=

 playing."

 

 

                Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to=

 do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 18:19:27 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

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Cool cool post Antoine, appreciate it

 

all I can say is

 

flat foot floogie with the floy floy

 

(OK OK for 20 points and the lead what PBS show did our man Jack utter those

abovementioned quotes from Mr Gaillard?)

 

 

 

 

At 08:47 PM 8/15/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Thought the text further on was a great description of Kerouac:

> 

>        I've read the parts in "On The Road" that refer to Jack and Neal

>watching Slim Gaillard in clubs, so it was interesting finding this

>interview, with Slim talking about Jackl. Anyone who hasn't had a chance to

>hear him on record, search him out.

> 

>        He was one of a small group of unique performers that straddled the

>Bebop / Beat era. They included Harry 'the Hipster' Gibson, Richard 'Lord'

>Buckley, Babs Gonzales, Leo Watson, Lenny Bruce, King Pleasure cooking up a

>melange of songs, spoken word, great performance, vocalese, scat....all

>intersecting with each other.

> 

>These quotes are from a large format paperback pictorial called "The Hip:

>Hipsters, Jazz and the Beat Generation". Published in England in 1986 by

>Faber & Faber; written by three well known English music journalists, Roy

>Carr, Brian Case and Fred Dellar.

> 

>*****Slim Gaillard on Jack Kerouac**********

> 

>'Having Jack write about me in "On The Road" is a nice thing to have on=

 your

>report card.

>'He was a great listener=85really admired my work...

> 

>        ....When I played "The Say When Club" in San Francisco, Jack showed

>up every night.=85would stand with his back against the wall and while he

>listened all the girls would cruise by and admire him.  Between sets, I'd

>stand there right next to him.  We were both so sharp we made a Gillette

>blade look like a hammer.

> 

>'There was one girl =97 owned two-thirds of Palm Springs =97 who'd keep=

 telling

>me, "Slim, you're the most fantastic guy I=92ve ever seen!" Anyway, I=

 wasn't

>about to argue=85Then, one night when I came to the club, there was a key=

 on

>the piano with my name on it. She'd gone out and bought me a brand new car

>as a little token=85hey! It's good to be handsome!'

>He laughed, wiped up the remains of the eggs with bread roll, and chased it

>all down with a bottle of Perrier.

> 

>******from "On the Road"*******

> 

>        Now Dean [Moriarty] approached him, he approached his God: he

>thought Slim [Gaillard] was God: he shuffled and bowed in front of him and

>asked him to join us.

> 

>        'Right-orooni', says Slim; he'll join anybody but won't guarantee=

 to

>be with you in spirit. Dean got a table, bought drinks, and sat stiffly in

>front of Slim. Slim dreamed over his head. Every time Slim said, 'Orooni,'

>Dean said, 'Yes!'

> 

>        I sat there with these two madmen. Nothing happened. To Slim

>Gaillard the whole world was just one big orooni.

> 

>*******from Miles Davis*******

> 

>        "There are only two men that I look up to...

>        Slim Gaillard and Dizzy Gillespie. Without them I wouldn't be=

 playing."

> 

> 

>                Antoine

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to=

 do!"

>                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:45:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

And to add to Tim's quiz...

 

        Who was Slim's musically famous son-in-law? He even had slim on a

record of his in the 80's!

                Antoine

 

        ****************

 

Cool cool post Antoine, appreciate it

> 

>all I can say is

> 

>flat foot floogie with the floy floy

> 

>(OK OK for 20 points and the lead what PBS show did our man Jack utter those

>abovementioned quotes from Mr Gaillard?)

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:41:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Chet and I

Comments: To: jwhite333@sprintmail.com

 

God, I didn't know you knew him. I used to fantasize to his music  in eary

fifties. I had a vision of him beside a 48 Ford conv. with his arms around a

chick in the perfect new suburb, but always saying goodbye so beautifully

frank. That's  first tip somethings happening! He sand his sad subtle songs

so mellow it can make your bones cry, the whole flower bleed.

C. Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:20:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Chet and I

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Charles,

 

        Who knew him?   ...have we got a hitherto unknown jazz resource on

the list?

 

        Ross Porter of CBC: Canadian Broadcasting Corporation put together a

great three hour / three part series on Baker that aired earlier this year

and again this past three weeks. It was a great blend of music and history.

Ross does a late night jazz show five days a week on the national FM band.

 

        He interviewed a ton of people and even went so far as to spend a

night in the hotel room in Amsterdam from where Chet fell (...or was

pushed?) to his death. He spoke to the police locally who were sure he was

probably not pushed. Ross did think that it was pretty unlikely that it was

an accident with Chet just lounging at the window since the window

construction would have made that awkward. His girlfriend seemed to think it

was probably suicide since he had been so distraught about her going back to

the States when he got to be too much to deal with.

 

        The book I mentioned earlier tonight had a lovely section on him.

One of the writers describes bumping into Chet late one rainy night in some

town in the midlands of England. He was bent over sideways looking into a

pawnshop at a trumpet trying to see if he could make out the maker''s mark.

The cover is a great bluetone picture of Chet, tee-shirt and jacket, sitting

on a folding chair with leg, white socks, loafers,  tossed up onto the next

one; a shockingly young looking Chet taken by Bob Willoughby in

1953...especially so when one is used to his appearance in later years.

 

        In Ross Porter's series he described Chet being stopped speeding by

a highway patrol officer who was all set to slam him, but then caught sight

of some albi\ums piled in the back seat. Asked "Chester Baker?   ....are you

Chet Baker??"   ...and collapsed in dizzy fan frenzy.

 

        Where did Chet stand in the Beat musical pantheon? Was he considered

not edgy enough?

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:20:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: about razor..Occam's

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Thanks for adding the William for me Rinaldo and for choosing such a perfect

Ferlinghetti poem as a response! Which collection is it from?

 

        Antoine

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 19:28:31 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Lew Welch Events, New posting Format

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This am. Chron here in SF had a nice story on Lew in connection with the

releast of Magda Cregg's book on Lew which I have not yet seen.  Magda

was a sig. other of Lew's and also, as a sideline, mother to Huey Lewis.

 

An even is happening at noon Saturday in Bolinas which I will not be

able to make.  If Beat-L folks know of any others kindly backchannel me.

 

The new posting format appears to me to be already generating unecessary

mail that would be better backchanneled.  Here is my one vote for a

return to the interim format in which backchannel is encouraged ( a good

thing in my view,) and a post to all 200+plus of us is required a little

thought.

 

Just my two cents.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:33:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: Chet and I

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> 

> God, I didn't know you knew him. I used to fantasize to his music  in

> eary

> fifties. I had a vision of him beside a 48 Ford conv. with his arms

> around a

> chick in the perfect new suburb, but always saying goodbye so

> beautifully

> frank. That's  first tip somethings happening! He sand his sad subtle

> songs

> so mellow it can make your bones cry, the whole flower bleed.

> C. Plymell

 

Charles at the risk of losing all my Southern Manhood self image, I will

venture to say, that in addition to being able to blow the trumpet like

no one else, he was a beautiful man.  I wonder if any of the women on

the list noticed his fallen angel, needing mothering, impish boy nature.

Just had to take care of him.  It would be good if some one some where

would put together a real jazz sampler with all some of the best of all

those who played from the heart.  Train, Chet, Miles, Dizzy, Byrd,

Charlie Christian, Wes Montgomery, at least that's where I would start.

 

Maybe it's out there.  Tell me if you know.

 

Peace,

 

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:33:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      I Guess I Didn't

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That window makes you look really ugly.

I should've told you but I guess I didn't.

That sunset is rising from the greatest depths.

I should've told you but I guess I didn't.

 

Wake up.

Get undressed.

You fell asleep in my dreams again.

 

 

                                           James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:04:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      The Flood of Dr. Sax

Mime-Version: 1.0

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The Kerouac Quarterly Page has been updated today (8-16-97)!!!

For details about the Images of Kerouac '97 Exhibition go to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

 

To see the painting "The Flood of Dr. Sax" go to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page2.html

 

Let me know what you think!!!! Thanks, Paul of TKQ. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 11:00:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      [Fwd: Burroughs]

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Well, I have been scanning the Dylan list for some more good Burroughs

posts.  And I couldn't find anymore, so the action must have died down.

But since the beats play cosmic baseball on the net, and since the

action has dwindled, I did find this fine reference to Cal Ripken and

Eddie Murray.  Seems timely since Anaheim just cut Eddie.

 

But on the beat list question.  I know, or at least believe Jack was

very much into baseball. How about Neal, or any others.  It would not

seem to be Allen's or William's kind of thing.  I know that James and

and few others had some good comments on Neal playing pool.  Is there

any sort of information on baseball and its connection with those who

are considered beats.  I personally find baseball to be a very

interesting game when seen live.  On tv, it is much too long.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Path:

 Supernews69!SupernewsFH!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!zdc!szdc!newsp

 .zippo.com!zdrn

From: judy

Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan

Subject: Re: Burroughs

Date: 15 Aug 1997 22:03:57 -0700

Organization: canova@hay.seed

Message-ID: <5t3cbt$s2r@drn.zippo.com>

References: <1.5.4.16.19970808102856.1b1f1c80@mail.mpx.com.au>

 <19970814.195351.4391.0.steve_lescure@juno.com>

NNTP-Posting-Host: ww-ty03.proxy.aol.com

Xref: Supernews69 rec.music.dylan:90208

 

In article , Steve says...

> 

>I would say that songwriters are certainly better judges than the typical

>music listener (Steve Earle notwithstanding), and probably better than

>the average critic.   Look at  baseball.  When the fans picked the

>players (maybe they still do, I don't  follow it much anymore) the

>choices were often ludicrious.  When the

>writers/mangers picked it came out much better, less choices like

>Cal Ripken batting .250 starting at shortstop.

> 

 

Look, it's one thing for folks in this newsgroup to take on Baez,

Burroughs, God, Ginsberg, or Calvin.  But when you go after Cal Ripken,

you've crossed the line.  What's next?  An attack on Eddie Murray?

 

--------------7728E3029820A3D2CE567CEF--

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 14:58:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Cut up method

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>From the Beat Book, edited by Anne Waldman 1996, page 182.

 

The Cut-up Method of Brion Gysin

 

At a surrealist rally in the 1920s Tristan Tzara the man from nowhere

proposed to creat a poem on the spot by pulling words out of a hat.  A

riot ensued wrecked the theater.  Andre Breton expelled Tristan Tzara

from the movement and grounded the cut-ups on the Freudian couch.

 

In the summer of 1959 Brion Gysin painter and writer cut newspaper

articles into sections at random.  "Minutes to Go" resulted from this

initial cut-up experiment.  "Minutes to Go" contains unedited unchanged

cut-ups emerging as quite coherent and meaningful prose.

 

...

 

Tristam Tzara said: "Poetry is for everyone."

 

...

 

Cutups are for everyone.  Anybody can make cut-ups.

 

This is from William S. Burroughs, The Cut-up Method of Brion Gysin

which first appeared in the "The Third Mind (c) 1978.

 

I was just trying to dig into some better understanding of Burroughs and

stumbled across this.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 04:40:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      On the Road: first 2 chapters

Comments: cc: SSASN@AOL.COM

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Is anyone ready to discuss books yet?  In rereading On the Road, I'm

noticing how much more romantic Kerouac is here about life, still in the

early stages of captivation with Neal for his love of life.

 

pg. 8, "...and I shambled after as I've been doing all my life after

people who interest me, because the only people for me are the mad ones,

the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of

everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace

thing, but burn, burn, burn like fabolous yellow roman candles exploding

like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue

centerlight pop and everybody goes 'Awww!'"

 

Interesting perception of Neal meeting Allen: pg. 7

"Two keen minds that they are, they took to each other at the drop of a

hat.  Two piercing eyes glanced into two piercing eyes--the holy con-man

with the shining mind, and the sorrowful poetic con-man with the dark

mind that is Carlo Marx."

 

Also interesting to note, is even that in starting out on his first

hitchhike across the country, where his plan is to take Route 6 straight

across the country to Ely, Nevada., he has to give up because there are

no cars to pick him up, and a passerby suggests he give up the plan

and head to Pittsburg to Chicago; he says, "It was my dream that screwed

up, the stupid hearthside idea that it would be wonderful to follow one

great red line across America instead of trying various roads and

routes."

 

So, in his eyes, is the American dream already starting to topple?  Is

the spiritual journey also begun? The fact that life is lived and

knowledge is gained by trying various roads and routes, instead of one

answer, analogous to one gigantic thoroughfare cutting through the middle

of America, but no one is on it.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:01:33 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

Comments: cc: SSASN@AOL.COM

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The most amazing thing about the beginning of Naked Lunch is the flow of

language.  Very much different than Kerouac's type of flow but very

compelling from the perspective of keeping the reader interested.  It

is a keen flow of dialogue that keeps things moving. As for subject

matter, mostly I've learned that the heirarchy of junk on all levels is

all-consuming and everyone is the chain is addicted to his own level, be

that user, seller, buyer, agent, etc.; the system goes in circles,

everyone is affected, infected.  Not a pretty world, lots of drooling,

vomiting, spitting, nightmares about rotting ectoplasm.  Also no real

sense of who I is, or where he is, except caught in a vicious cycle.

Does anyone else have a perspective about the beginning of the book?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:03:59 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      The Darkness of Buddishm.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

*-

"A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to

remove love from his being in order to avoid,

has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable

to castration."-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.

>From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."

 

*-

        "When the Vietnamese communists

        took Saigon in 1975, they put their "class

        enemies" into re-education camps. In

        neighboring Cambodia, Pol Pot built exter-

        mination camps. Techears, doctors, people

        who could speak a foreing language, even

        people who wore glasses, were purged as

        he sought to reduce all of Cambodia to the

        level of the peasant class. The Vietnamese

        could be cruel captors, but their Confucian

        heritage left them open to educational re-

        form. In Cambodia, by contrast, Buddhism

        encouraged a belief in the ineluctability

        of karma and the idea that evil suffered

        is evil deserved. ''The idea of karma

        goes very deep in this society, and I

        think that was part of the mentality of

        the Khmer Rouge when they were massacring

        people,'' said Francois Ponvhaud, a priest

        who first went in Cambodia in 1965. '' They

        believed their victims had made errors,

        political errors, and that killing them

        would allow them to be reborn as better

        people in their next lives''. Pol Pot has

        admitted to some mistakes in the period

        from 1975 to 1979, but in his eyes they

        were mistakes of policy. About the million

        dead, he has never expressed any remorse."

        From "Terry McCarthy-- TIME,AUGUST 11,1997."

 

*-

"I repeat, BUDDHISM IS NOT FOR THE WEST.

We must evolve our own solutions..."

-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.

>From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."

*-

 

        DIED. WILLIAM BURROUGHS, 83,

        countercultural hero, whose

        delicioussly delirious novel,

        ''Naked Lunch'', was cleared

        of obscenity charges by the

        U.S. Supreme Court; in Lawrence,

        Kansas. A literary junkie,

        Burroughs was hooked on heroin

        and words, which he furiously

        pieced together to exorcise the

        memory of having drunkenly shot

        his wife Joan instead of the

        glass perched on her head. Of

        that stunt gone fatally wrong,

        Burroughs once said: '' I have

        had no choice but to write my

        way out.''

        From "TIME,AUGUST 18,1997.

*-

 

saluti fraterni,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 17:14:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Smoke Signals

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Sam plays the blues

His left hand action

Could break your heart

 

[Dark Cipher

Show Judas mercy

He was dealt a raw hand

Shattered faith and broken connection

He took to the highway

To be born again

You need distance]

 

Rick pours a drink

And waits for her return

 

[Like a killer

Firing blanks at a photograph

He seethes

Like an infant

Being smothered by a pillow

Thinks he sees the light]

 

He lights a cigarette

And lets time go by

 

[We surrounded the fire

Dancing and ripping the flesh

Off our screaming sacrifice

Our hands covered with blood

And offal]

 

Ilsa's eyes still watch him at night

 

[Menstrual mind shaved bare

Severed ring finger

On a drift of snow

Coyly removing her shades

Tongues of flame lick the air

>From hollow eye sockets]

 

"I miss you, kid"

 

[In the apartment next door

A body is being slammed against

The wall again and again

All I do is sweat my sheets into slush

And follow the rhythm in terror]

 

She's always another drink away

 

[The knife thrower

Over there, wiping his steel

Is Anxious for his turn on stage

He makes sure these parties

Don't get over crowded]

 

He's always a drink behind

 

[Her room is gaurded by statues

Of saints, candles and prayer cards

Holy water by the door

Someone outside crying at

A lovers' breakthrough

Swallowed by black night

Playing burial drums in the street

Acceptance at her outstretched hand

I lay down

Whose lips enclosed

Whose touch could save]

 

 

                                           Chimera

                                            '91 (cut-ups)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 23:15:02 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Beat Writers.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://sfpl.lib.ca.us/nbe/beatwriters.html

 

 

List of Beat Writers in The Collection

 

 

        The two sources used to determine if a writer/poet is to be included

 in the Beat Writers Collection are: 1) A two volume set entitled "The Beats:

 Literary Bohemians in Postwar America" (edited by Ann Charters. Gale. 1983).

 More than a biography of 66 Beats or Beat Era writers, each entry includes an

 in-depth critique of the works of an author and includes at least one

 photograph and a bibliography.  The six page forward written by Charters

 serves as a quick socio-historical analysis of BEAT.

        Poets/writers listed in this two volume set are:

 

Amari Baraka (Leroi Jones)

Paul Blackburn

Bonnie Bremser

Ray Bremser

Chandler Brossard

William S. Burroughs

William S. Burroughs Jr.

Paul Carroll

Carolyn Cassady

Neal Cassady

Andy Clausen

Gregory Corso

Robert Creely

Diane DiPrima

Kirby Doyle

Robert Duncan

Bob Dylan

William Everson (Brother Antonus)

Lawrence Ferlinghetti

Allen Ginsberg

Brion Gysin

John Cellon Holmes

Herbert Huncke

Ted Joans

Lenore Kandel

Bob Kaufman

Jan Kerouac

Jack kerouac

Ken Kesey

Seymour Krim

Tuli Kupferberg

Joanne Kyger

Philip Lamantia

Jay Landesman

Fran Landesman

Timothy Leary

Lawrence Lipton

Norman Mailer

Edward Marshall

Joanna McClure

Michael McClure

Taylor Mead

David Meltzer

Jack Micheline

John Montgomery

Harold Norse

Frank O'Hara

Charles Olson

Peter Orlovsky

Kenneth Patchen

Stuart Z. Perkoff

Charles Plymell

Dan Propper

Kenneth Rexroth

Michael Rumaker

Ed Sanders

Gary Snyder

Carl Solomon

Jack Spicer

Charles Upton

Janine Pommy Vega

Anne Waldman

Alan Watts

Lew Welch

Philip Whalen

John Weiners

William Carlos Williams

 

        2) The second book is entitled

        "Women of the Beat Generation" (edited by Brenda Knight.)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 17:47:00 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

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         I found out quickly that the best

way to approach NL (for me) is as a

long poem, rather than a novel.

 

           Being spoiled by mainstream

authors (hey, I was young!), I wasn't

expecting the sharp turns in the middle

of a sentence (in the middle of a thought)

or the playing with the flow of the plot.

Once you sink into the rhythm and

_expect_ high word play and serious

surreal imagery, the book comes more

easily. Anyway-just me talkin'.

 

            As for the subject matter, even

with my limited (by comparison) drug

experience, one of the things that I was

affected by was WSB's dead on (and

heartbreaking) descriptions of the users'

denial of self (except when it comes to

scoring). The loss of shame, vanity, etc.

It seemed to me that while putting down

these scenes, all his fantastic wordplay

was put aside just for a few sentences

and he was just "putting the feeling

across, straight". All the more jarring

when he'd get up and go again.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:53:46 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Lew Welch

Comments: To: dcarter@together.net

 

Bolinas 7.16.97 4pm Western Standard Time

 

Lew Welch Birthday party-Book party

Hey Beat List

this is my first post--

Just back from great reading, singing, dancing,

homage to Lew...  Happy Birthday,

Ring of bone-

Robert Hunter the long time Greatful Dead lyricist

sang to the crowd

Magda singed copies of her new book

"Hey Lew"

People read from Lew's poems

(I got to read Taxi Suite)

All in the sweet down town

of Bolinas

ever wonder what

happened to all the hippies?

They are alive and well

in Bolinas

more poets per capita than

any where on the plant.

Also in attendance

Joann Kyger

You can get the new book

by sending $12.00 to Magda Cregg

Box 964 Bolinas CA 94924

(for those not in the know

she was married to Lew

and the mother of

Huey Lewis)

Sweet stories in the book

of Lew teaching Huey

about poetry!!

 

Love,

Gary Mex Glazner

Headless Buddha

http://www.well.com/user/poetmex

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 18:51:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Cut up method

In-Reply-To:  <33F5F86D.548BBCEF@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 11:58 AM -0700 8/16/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

 

> Tristam Tzara said: "Poetry is for everyone."

> 

> ...

> 

> Cutups are for everyone.  Anybody can make cut-ups.

> 

> This is from William S. Burroughs, The Cut-up Method of Brion Gysin

> which first appeared in the "The Third Mind (c) 1978.

> 

> I was just trying to dig into some better understanding of Burroughs and

> stumbled across this.

 

 

driving down from Lala today.  thinking about The Big Lie and how cutups,

collage, and that compacted shape shifting style familiar to david salle,

burroughs, and a whole new generation of graphic designers.  Got to

thinking about how otto dix and george grosz with the depictions of post

wwI germany, their crowded political scenes are very reminsecent of my WSB

view.

 

to crack the big lie.  to be vigilent on the truth and not be snide, not

play stupid, and to crack the commercian veneer that often surrounds such

enterprises.

 

yes, "people have the power" as patti smith often says.  "people have the

power to dream, to rule, to wrestle the earth from fools"

 

and how refreshing it is to read some straight commentary, not some alien

this and hanging boy critique of capitalism art statement.  props to the

New Yorker for getting ahold of those journal entries.  Wonder how they

pulled that one off??

 

> 

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 20:50:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> The most amazing thing about the beginning of Naked Lunch is the flow of

> language.  Very much different than Kerouac's type of flow but very

> compelling from the perspective of keeping the reader interested.  It

> is a keen flow of dialogue that keeps things moving. As for subject

> matter, mostly I've learned that the heirarchy of junk on all levels is

> all-consuming and everyone is the chain is addicted to his own level, be

> that user, seller, buyer, agent, etc.; the system goes in circles,

> everyone is affected, infected.  Not a pretty world, lots of drooling,

> vomiting, spitting, nightmares about rotting ectoplasm.  Also no real

> sense of who I is, or where he is, except caught in a vicious cycle.

> Does anyone else have a perspective about the beginning of the book?

> DC

 

It has been some time since i've been through this book.  As i may have

mentioned i gave my william burroughs collection to a dear friend for

hannukah last winter.  i felt it was time to pass it along at the time.

sometimes i have regrets - especially when specifics are being

discussed.  The local library which does have a copy of Naked Lunch will

not be open until sometime later next week.  Hopefully it will be

available for checkout.

        In the meantime another library in town "MAGICALLY" had a copy of the

Letters 45-59 of WSB.  I checked it out yesterday and have already made

it to December 1952.  It is good reading and quite a warmup for moving

into Naked Lunch - as i believe Arthur had suggested previously.

        One thing about what you've recognized in the opening portions of the

book is that i believe that there are many layers beyond mere junk at

work here.  The nature of the vicious cycle is particularly important.

It seems to be (as i recall) that the beginning section of this book --

with minor modifications -- could be a recurring preface to most of the

works to follow with differing emphasis concerning the specifics.

        Without a copy of Naked Lunch before me it is difficult to explain this

very well as i am unable to provide any textual references.  What i am

suggesting also in no way is a claim that your current reading is a

misunderstanding or misconception.  Rather what i'm trying to find the

words to breakthrough with here is that the beginning section can be

read as developing a far more general theory concerning addiction and

control and even Control with a capital "C".  Such a reading views the

poetry of junk as a poetic example of the larger notion.

        The particular kind of vicious cycle described here is a powerful

general theory which can be translated across addictions and even as far

as considering addictions to the virus of words and the control of

space/time and the addiction to finding immortality.  Throughout the

writings of WSB, it always seems to me, that coming back to these

beginnings in Naked Lunch can provide a powerful lens into the future

project.

        Two other comments ... it seems that it is important to view Naked

Lunch as more than a junk novel from the outset.  The junk experience is

already described in some detail in Junkie/Junky (or as in the letters

simply Junk).  Viewing as more than a junk novel helps discourage the

tendency to pigeonhole the writings of WSB as a junk novelist.

        The second thing is that the technique employed in developing Naked

Lunch of cut-up (cut and paste, splice, word montage - whatever) both

presents a clear picture and something of a non-linear image that breaks

through pre-recordings.  In reading WSB, one can merely accept the

pre-recording of the book as published or appreciate this version and

also glance around the montage of words for portraits of further

meanings yet to be exposed.

 

        Just a few thoughts.  I look forward to being able to check out the

necessary books to keep up with you on this very very soon.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:15:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Thanks to My Friends of the Beat-L

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Thanks to all those who have visited my web page for The Kerouac Quarterly.

I must solicit one thing from those who can help me. I am looking for any

current or upcoming reviews for Some of the Dharma. This is an important

publication and should be widely discussed in a controversial way. I think

you all will be surprised by its contents as I was. For now. . .I have the

negative review from Kirkus added to the page ( a page I will keep separate

for Some of the Dharma). Thanks again. . .please e-mail me your reviews

should you get them. Regards and thanks from The Kerouac Quarterly. .

.Sincerely Paul. . .

 

 The Kerouac Quarterly, a journal for the legacy and spirit of Jack Kerouac. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 19:22:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

  Like David, I haven't reread the novel in quite awhile.  I have to agree

with his idea about how pervasive the metaphor of "junk" is throughout the

novel.  A scene which has stuck in my mind since I read it, and I believe

it's in the first chapter, is when a guy approaches the narrator in the

subway (?) and the narrator immediately recognizes the guy as someone who

isn't "in the know" and who, because of this, is ready for a fleecing.

  And I keep thinking about how "paranoia" is so often justified and I

wonder how truly deep the "junk" goes.  Maybe I'll reread it after all.

 

                                                   Your's,

                                                   James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 00:20:14 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Some of the Dharma Review

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have posted on another page at my web site a review for Some of the Dharma.

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page3.html

 

Enjoy and respond! Regards to all, Paul of TKQ. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 21:34:09 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

In-Reply-To:  <33F658EA.50E2@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 6:50 PM -0700 8/16/97, RACE --- wrote:

 

 

>         The particular kind of vicious cycle described here is a powerful

> general theory which can be translated across addictions and even as far

> as considering addictions to the virus of words and the control of

> space/time and the addiction to finding immortality.  Throughout the

> writings of WSB, it always seems to me, that coming back to these

> beginnings in Naked Lunch can provide a powerful lens into the future

> project.

 

Ok, cool.  Was watching tv tonight, "Valmont."  This psycho thriller of

sorts, involving love, death, manipulation, and in the end, "the viscious

circle".  And we see it all planned out.  down to the details.  Human

beings controling the outcome of events.  Mixed this all up with my working

WSB ideas of the "big lie."

 

Went to the bookstore today and came up with "the western lands."  They

didn't have the WSB letters book, nor the Umberto Eco I was looking for.

Got a S. Dali compendium for $6 (quite a steal!).

 

 also realized the you can translate the control, the viscious cycle you

are talking about into visual terms as well.  That's where the green tit

comes in handy, I guess.  The Gaze!

 

then from what your talking about, don't forget what an old carny WSB is.

I liked how Eric Blanco talked about WSB and his few true sentences.  And

seeing him start, jarringly, up again.  The lure to keep the carny suspect

hooked.

 

and from "Valmont" realizing that your own actions are possibly not enough

to prevent the big lie from happening again.  that lies are necessary, that

love is not always fulfilled, and the harm might willingly be caused to

others.  Needing people to respect and violate these personal laws.

 

then death, how it works.  death is indeed the seed.  burrowing down deep

like the fucking fleas in my apartment.  bring the heat and my blood is

ripe for the picking.

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Big_lie.html

 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 16 Aug 1997 22:49:11 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      green tit (1997)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Green_tit.html

 

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:17:28 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Lawrence Ferlinghetti, the Prevert of America...

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997081523204008@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Antoine et al. friends,

 

the Ferlinghetti's poem "Walking through the University of Bologna"

is printed in the book

"Ferlinghetti, SCENE ITALIANE", ed. Minum fax, (c) 1995, Roma

in the cover a Ferlinghetti's painting titled "Morning Vision",

 

in previous post i noticed thet Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

have alot of books in stock i dunno if he has a copy of "Italian Scenes"

by LF,

 

saluti a tutti, e buona domenica,

Rinaldo.

 

 

At 23.20 15/08/97 -0400, Antoine wrote:

>Thanks for adding the William for me Rinaldo and for choosing such a perfect

>Ferlinghetti poem as a response! Which collection is it from?

> 

>        Antoine

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:28:41 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lowell Kerouac organizers

Mime-Version: 1.0

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At 11:41 PM 8/14/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I have ended this kind of crap! It went out with greasy funded french fries.

>Who wants to see Kerouac's Lowell in that kind of crowd, anyway?

>C. Plymell

> 

> 

The Hemingway ancestors have ceased control of the Papa

image in Key West and are trying to the get the annual

event to pay them (the Hem foundation)tribute for using

the Hem image, etc.  If Kerouac's relatives want to make

a case which makes all public beat knowledge accessible to

them.  It could be the Dow is starting to shift downers.

 

Mike Rice

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:02:56 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

MIME-Version: 1.0

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runner wrote:

>   Mixed this all up with my working

> WSB ideas of the "big lie."

> 

> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Big_lie.html

> 

> Douglas

> 

> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

 

I'm not certain that "lie" is it.  Unless the Lie is in only one angle

on truth.  It doesn't seem to me a particularly moralish notion as Lie

sometimes suggests - what constitutes the Big Lie is factually accurate

from a particular point of view, from a particular angle.  What is

exposed is the multiplicity of angles.

 

i like your montage/collage.  it reminded me of an old friends stuff

that he used to send through the mail - addressing the backside of

something like that to friends.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:06:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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James William Marshall wrote:

> 

>   Like David, I haven't reread the novel in quite awhile.  I have to agree

> with his idea about how pervasive the metaphor of "junk" is throughout the

> novel.  A scene which has stuck in my mind since I read it, and I believe

> it's in the first chapter, is when a guy approaches the narrator in the

> subway (?) and the narrator immediately recognizes the guy as someone who

> isn't "in the know" and who, because of this, is ready for a fleecing.

>   And I keep thinking about how "paranoia" is so often justified and I

> wonder how truly deep the "junk" goes.  Maybe I'll reread it after all.

> 

>                                                    Your's,

>                                                    James M.

 

i wasn't going to re-read it.  i felt like - been there, done that.  but

i know that i missed so many angles along the way in first readings and

the idea of reading it with others seems a nice idea.  i hope you decide

to read it.

 

this and the message to douglas are probably examples of what just as

well might be backchanneled ... i fall easily into the trap that the new

format creates and James Stauffer so elegantly slammed.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 07:14:11 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Resent-From: Fred Bogin <FDBBC@cunyvm.cuny.edu>

Comments:     Originally-From: Matthias_Schneider

              <magrobi@mail.zedat.fu-berlin.de>

From:         Fred Bogin <FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Burroughs/ Ginsberg and David Leavitt

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi,

thanks for helping me with the citation search the other day...

=2E..by the way, I am studying the Text The Lost Language of Cranes by David

Leavitt for my thesis and there are at least two references concerning

Ginsberg und Burroughs.

(1.) a rather middle-class gay couple distance themselves from Ginsberg=B4s

social life

(2.) there is a scene in which one of the protagonists (Philip) is in a

porn theatre an he has sex with a guy, although he does not want it until

"the strange man=B4s hand unzips Philip=B4s and BURROWS into him."

I wonder whether the verb "burrows into" (It sounds like "Burroughs,

doesn=B4t it?) is a textual reference to Naked Lunch to what happened to the

boys. I have not read  Naked Lunch yet, but as far as I know they are kind

of raped and die at the end of the story. Is there any other term (that is

perhaps more often used) that describes fellatio, instead of to "burrow

into".

I guess David Leavitt is pretty anti-beat.

 

Do you think the latter clue has any sense, or am I overreading? I would be

grateful for any comments.

 

Matthias Schneider (Berlin)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:49:48 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      la Repubblica quoted Wall Street Journal WSB's obituary

In-Reply-To:  <33EFFFC8.5258@buchenroth.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 23.16 11/08/97 -0700,

"Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@BUCHENROTH.COM> wrote:

>Last Saturday morning (Friday night) I read an article / bio / slam /

>insulting and frightening propaganda bullshit narrowly filtered opinion

>in the "Wall Street Journal" about Burroughs and the Beats, etc.

>***

[snipped for brevity]

> 

 

Friends,

the newspaper "la Repubblica", printed in Rome (the 2th most

big newspaper in Italy) today sunday 17th august 1997, has quoted the

Wall Street Journal article concerned the William S. Burroughs' obituary.

 

        *********************************************

        Dopo i misurati elogi della stampa "liberal",

        il "Wall Street Journal" parte all'attacco.

 

                BURROUGHS, L'AMERICA SI DIVIDE

                        di Eugenio Occorsio

 

        Era inevitabile che l'America giungesse ad un

        ''redde rationem'' con William Burroughs, il

        controverso profeta della beat generation morto

        di infarto il 2 agosto nel Kansas appena quattro

        mesi dopo l'altro ''poeta maledetto'' Allen

        Ginsberg. E' un processo tortuoso e sofferto,

        questa rivisitazione della figura dell'autore

        di ''Naked Lunch'', che si sta consumando in

        questi giorni insieme alle celebrazioni di

        Elvis Presley: il New York Times ha pubblicato

        un obituary volutamente asettico e didascalico

        pur definendolo ''scrittore rinnegato'', il

        Washington Post lo ha definito senza mezzi termini

        ''una genuina icona culturale'', il Los Angeles Times-

        citando peraltro i tanti ammiratori da Norman

        Mailer a Lou Reed- ha riferito con piu' convinzione

        nei giorni successivi le serrate critiche che lo

        dipingevano come un ''ciarlatano incomprensibile''.

        Ma e' soprattutto il Wall Street Journal, ultimo ma

        non minore, a scagliarsi non solo contro questo

        ''debosciato pornografo'' ma anche contro il resto

        della stampa americana, ''che lo ha trattato come fosse

        un'importante figura letteraria''.

                ''Burroughs, come prima di lui Kerouac- scrive

        ora il quotidiano- commetteva, fra le tante, una

        mistificazione: diceva di ispirarsi allo scrittore

        Jonathan Swift, per i suoi toni satirici e disincantati.

        Nulla di piu' sbagliato: Swift prende le distanze

        dalle aberrazioni e dalla degradazione che dipingeva,

        Burroughs invece vi e' immerso dentro. E' un opportunista

        che si autodefinisce ironico solo perche' cosi' cerca

        di proteggersi contro le azioni legali a suo carico

        per oscenita' ''. A differenza di Swift, ''non ha

        nessun ideale da contrapporre alle brutture che descrive''.

        Certo aggiunge il Journal, Burroughs, come gli altri

        Beats, ha lasciato il segno nella cultura americana e

        ha contribuito ad infrangere il muro di "reticente

        sensibilita'" che circondava la pornografia. E la sua

        "religione della droga" ha fatto si' che di questa si

        riuscisse a parlare con minore reticenze. Ma il tutto

        ''non ha rappresentato un successo, bensi' una penosa

        degenerazione''.

 

        copyright "la Repubblica" domenica 17 agosto 1997, p.34

        *******************************************************

 

i must note that in the italian media (Tv & Press) WSB isn't caned,

here there's an acceptance of the beat experience,

 

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:23:25 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: New Format

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

  What's the deal with the new format?  Are we supposed to be doing

something differently?  I'd backchannel this to Bill but I don't have his

address.  My apologies for wasting bandwidth but perhaps there are others

with the same questions.

P.S. I haven't noticed any difference in my mail from this list.

 

                                                James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 11:03:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Burroughs and musical influences

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

After someone dies, everything is written in the context of the fact that=

 he

is dead. All writings about Burroughs and Ginsberg now have an obituary f=

eel

to them. These days, obituary feels hyped, forced, politically correct. S=

o I

was interested to find these three older music reviews at Rolling Stone's

website (http://www.rollingstone.com), written about three distinct music=

al

contributions, as disparate as night and day, written at various times wh=

ile

William was still alive.

 

His influence is named, rather than claimed, in these reviews. I thought =

a

bunch of us might enjoy them.=20

 

The last sentence of the Iggy Pop review is a great philosophical stateme=

nt

that must have been intimately understood both by WSB and Kurt Cobain. Ma=

ybe

it should a tattoo inside the elbow-joint of everyone making art with wor=

ds

and music in the nihilistic Nineties, right where that vein pops up.

 

Diane De Rooy

........................

Clear

Bomb the Bass

 

In 1988, Tim Simenon was a teenage DJ making cut-and-paste hip-hop single=

s in

the style of fellow English mix masters Coldcut, S'Express and M/A/R/R/S.=

 His

first single, "Beat Dis," was intended to be a simple, faceless dance rec=

ord,

but it wound up catapulting Simenon into Britain's suffocating pop spotli=

ght.

By 1993, the DJ and producer had released two albums in Britain, "Into th=

e

Dragon" and "Unknown Territory," as Bomb the Bass.

 

Simenon has returned with his third Bomb the Bass album, "Clear," and it

demonstrates just how far he has come since those early days. The novelty=

 of

samplers has apparently worn off for Simenon, and what has emerged is a

proficient sweep through dub reggae, hip-hop, jazz, techno and the litera=

ry

collection of William S. Burroughs. With fewer electronic bites and more

original instrumentation, "Clear" is Simenon's most sophisticated work to

date.

 

On "Empire," an emotive ballad that plays on the similarity of the words

empire and vampire in describing England as a bloodsucking entity, Sinead

O'Connor duets with the delicate-voiced newcomer Benjamin Zephaniah to

beautiful effect. But it's the Los Angeles rapper Justin Warfield who is =

most

responsible for "Clear's" edgy, Beat-like quality. When Warfield waxes

lyrical about Willy Wonka over Simenon's drug-addled bassoon foundation o=

n

"Brain Dead" or flips the lines "Bug powder dust/To mugwump jism/The wild

boys running/Round interzone trippin'," on "Bug Powder Dust," it's appare=

nt

that this music is a far cry from typical hip-hop fare.

 

The album's smooth-flowing, laid-back jazz quality stands in stark contra=

st

to the original European release of "Clear," which carried a frenetic pac=

e

similar to flipping through television channels. Alternate versions - and

even song omissions (including a contribution from the author Will Self) =

-

make for an entirely different creation for the American audience, althou=

gh

both albums are equally worthwhile.

 

On "Clear," Bomb the Bass reaches well beyond the boundaries of the trip-=

hop

appellation to present tunes sweet to the ears and lyrics that stick in t=

he

mind.=20

-- TAMARA PALMER (RS 732)

.................................................

The Chronic/Black Sunday

Dr. Dre/Cypress Hill

Death Row/Interscope/Columbia

 

Wrapped in a Batman cloak of larger-than-life mayhem and straining its pa=

nts

with adolescent horniness, it's beloved by millions, black and white; the=

y

devour its percussive snap, crackle and pop. To adult white people, it's

anathema. But California hardcore rap is simply one of the most imaginati=

ve

sounds in the world today. Its radical wordplay mainstreaming the

scatological cut-up poetics that William Burroughs debuted in the '50s, i=

t

hurdles the aesthetic line in the sand that original rap drew when it beg=

an

to rethink rhythm, compositional method and studio technique so decisivel=

y

that it redefined the very perception of music itself. Along with the 12-=

tone

scale of modern classical fare, Ornette Coleman's free jazz and the trium=

ph

of punk attitude, the rap revolution is 20th-century fact.

 

At its vanguard are the gangstas. Formerly of the trailblazing N.W.A, Dr.=

 Dre

is the form's wizard producer. High-volume hypnotism, "The Chronic," like=

 the

marijuana it's named for, alters the senses. Mixing loping beats, smooth =

and

gruff voices from South Central, giggles, snarls and reggae intonations, =

it

updates the aural movies P-Funk (and psychedelia) once made. Its sounds a=

re

as raw and complex and real as life. The assaultive Dre and the more rela=

xed

Snoop Doggy Dogg (the latter formally charged with murder in September) m=

ay

be, to put it mildly, problematic souls, and romanticizing criminal behav=

ior

sucks. This music, however, cannot be refuted =96 or easily forgotten.

 

With "Black Sunday," Cypress Hill make baroque rap so arcane in its sampl=

es

(Bobbie Gentry, Black Sabbath, Joe Zawinul) and verbal references (sumo

wrestling, Louis Armstrong, "The Wizard of Oz") that the mind reels. This

crew, too, is made up of potheads. And next to their musical inventivenes=

s,

black-Latino hipness and zany comedy, most rappers seem as lame as old hi=

ppie

bands did next to Frank Zappa. Skull-strewn, their album art looks B-movi=

e

Gothic, but what's truly scary is their titanic, subversive intelligence.

--PAUL EVANS (RS 672/673)=20

......................................

Naughty Little Doggie

Iggy Pop

 

If Iggy Pop had died when most people expected him to -- back in the

mid-'70s, from an overdose of bad drugs and stage violence -- we would

probably be sitting around now wondering what kind of music he would have

made in his middle age. But the heavy chemicals and broken glass didn't k=

ill

him, and he's still cutting records, so here's your answer: In 1996, the =

Pop

is still singing about pussy. About needing it, getting it and how just

thinking about it is good for what ails him. With its hip-swing rhythm an=

d

irresistible idiot-mantra chorus, "Pussy Walk" is top-grade, lowbrow lovi=

n'.

Because in rock & roll, as in everything else, life is too short to waste=

 on

double-entendre.

 

At 48, Iggy Pop isn't punking out. "I'm better than a Pepsi/I'm cooler th=

an

MTV," he brags at the outset of "Naughty Little Doggie" over the shake 'n=

'

quake of "I Wanna Live." "Step up, it's fight time/ Kick, scratch and bit=

e

time." He's as good as his word for the most part, turning on the power-e=

lite

pricks in "Knucklehead" while losing himself in the burnt-heart howl of "=

To

Belong." And Iggy has not lost his lyric gifts for Burroughsian sleight o=

f

metaphor -- "The music sounds like dead ham" ("Knucklehead") -- and sly

menace. "Strangle that rock & roll star," he sings on "Outta My Head" wit=

h

just the right trace of irony. "Make him eat jizz."

 

But Iggy also carries the great weight of his own history; at this point =

in

his life, nothing short of total meltdown on record would eclipse the Mol=

otov

cock tales on "The Stooges," "Fun House" and "Raw Power." And "Doggie" fi=

nds

him struggling with the uneasy balance between the eternal joys of electr=

ic

fuck-you rock & roll and singing about the hard truth of being an outlaw =

for

life -- that you'll probably die alone. Iggy almost nails it in "Outta My

Head" with the wounded-animal way his voice bends slightly out of tune, b=

ut

the song cries out for more explicit guitar madness, more real blood on t=

he

frets.

 

"Look Away," though, is a potent admission of screwing up on China white =

and

cheap attitude. Amid references to Johnny Thunders' fatal mixed-up confus=

ion

and Iggy's own near-death experiences, electric and acoustic guitars blen=

d in

eerie, milky strumming as Iggy intones the words "look away" like some Ze=

n

chant and shows just how low you can go to get by. "I got lots of

feelings/But I hold them down," he sings at the end. "That's the way I

cope/With this shitty town."

 

If Iggy had died ahead of schedule, he would just be another rock & roll

martyr. Instead, the fun house is still open for business and, as he puts=

 it

here, "I'm deeper than the shit I'm in/An' I don't really give a damn."

Celebrity is great, but survival is the best revenge.=20

-- DAVID FRICKE (RS 728)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:34:24 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: New Format

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

<<   What's the deal with the new format?  Are we supposed to be doing

something differently?  I'd backchannel this to Bill but I don't have

his

 address.>>

 

You point directly to the difficulty with the return to the current (and

original) format.  Under the interim format we have been operating under

for the last few months the default address that appeared when you hit

your "Reply" button was that of the person posting rather than the

list.  If you felt that your reply should go to the list rather than

only that one individual it was easy to erase the "Mail to" address and

plug in Beat-L from your address book.  Under this format the default

that appears in your "mail to" space is the list address.  It is easy to

change that if you have the individual in your address book.  If you

don't, however, you have to copy the individual address from the message

and plug it in.  This format makes backchannel harder unless the reply

is to one of your regular on-line buddies.

 

I am using the terms from Netscape mail, but most of the other mail

programs have very similar functions.

 

What I liked about the original format was that it made one think at

least once about whether the reply was one that ought to go to all 200

or so of us or was more personal or not global enough for the list.

This reduced list traffic alot and encouraged backchannel both of which

were good things in my view.

 

I think some folks failed to understand how easy it was to plug in the

List address or were using mail programs that may have made it harder.

This produced lobbying for a change back to the original format.  There

are some that liked the personal tone and the sort of cyber soap opera

that the original  format seems to me to create.  I can like that too,

but it takes a lot more time, and we keep losing good people from the

list because they know they have work they ought to be doing and the

list makes a marvelous excuse for not doing it.  The higher and more

frivilous the post volume  the greater the incentive to leave and we all

lose access to some wonderful expertise.  People keep leaving to finish

books.  Those are the sort of people we most need on Beat-L.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:44:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

In-Reply-To:  <33F6CC50.10CB@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 3:02 AM -0700 8/17/97, RACE --- wrote:

 

> runner wrote:

> >   Mixed this all up with my working

> > WSB ideas of the "big lie."

> >

> > http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Big_lie.html

> >

> > Douglas

> >

> > http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

> 

> I'm not certain that "lie" is it.  Unless the Lie is in only one angle

> on truth.  It doesn't seem to me a particularly moralish notion as Lie

> sometimes suggests - what constitutes the Big Lie is factually accurate

> from a particular point of view, from a particular angle.  What is

> exposed is the multiplicity of angles.

 

 

yeah, got to thinking about that "lie" part also.  Was it similar to the

"original sin"?  Was it the "fall from heaven" that is basically in every

religion across the globe?  As if by being paranoid (as S.Dali does in his

paranoid-critical method of painting), one is, as you say, exposed to

multiple angels.  angles.

 

that you can't really trust anyone, and this is the foundation for

something larger.  Oh,  I don't know.  Have kinda lost that train of

thought now.  But, aha!  I now have a good set of questions to begin

"western lands" with (and perhaps some q's on Bloom, too....)

 

 

> 

> i like your montage/collage.  it reminded me of an old friends stuff

> that he used to send through the mail - addressing the backside of

> something like that to friends.

 

Thanx!  yes, part of the diatribe that followed in my head rang with

Buckowski's great line "too all my friends" (as superbly announced by M.

Rourke in "Bar Fly").  And from there, got to thinking about the big three

beats and how they are now dead.  all dead.  But not all dead.  Wasn't it

Rinaldo who posted the "who'se who" of beatness?  All these people.

Including Buckowski (sp?), I suppose.  I guess I'm saying that we have a

lot to talk about.  Or possible to talk about.  A lot of friends left on

the table...

 

I'd like to know who the beat artists were.  Robert Williams and S. Clay

Wilson come to mind.  Then there's the guy who did Hunter S. Thomspon's

novels.  The photographer Robert Frank has worked with Patti Smith a few

times.  Don't know if it's fair to include Robert Mapplethorpe or Annie

Leibovitz for their portraiture.  Who else?  Brion G. of course.

 

ah, time to find some coffee.  and perhaps a used bookstore or two.  Need

to find a Yves Tanguey book!

 

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 10:20:28 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch

In-Reply-To:  <33F6CD13.40EA@midusa.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 3:06 AM -0700 8/17/97, RACE --- wrote:

 

 

> the idea of reading it with others seems a nice idea.  i hope you decide

> to read it.

> 

> this and the message to douglas are probably examples of what just as

> well might be backchanneled ... i fall easily into the trap that the new

> format creates and James Stauffer so elegantly slammed.

 

oh god, what is the list thinking of me now?

another round of arrows or a bbq in my honor?

oh, it's a book signing, oh hell

 

I had the same thoughts on my cutup thread with Bentz.  How would we put

this poem to music?  Who cares?!  I don't know.  Am glad that it ended when

it did, before someone pulled out the machete and started hacking their

computer to death.  Surprised James didn't write me personally and tell me

to shut the fuck up.

 

Basically, I'd agree that the previous format was good for backchannelling.

I actually liked it better that way myself.  so Bill Gargan, considering

your email always bounces,  I hope you're reading this:  add my vote to the

idea of returning to the previous format.  and who knows, they might start

regulating sperm any day now, too...

 

 

 

it's the miracle of the lie.    yep, that's what Exene and Lydia Lunch, I

believe, talked about when they cruised words and attitudes thru various

towns a few years back.  Trashing Courney Love, the Unabomber, and the

media that permeates this planet.  How fashion and their zero dollar

attitude can revolutionize life.  That if you believe the big lies handed

down to you, that god is good, that big government is out to protect you,

that your doctor knows what's best for you, that that etc.  just manhandled

here and there without any factual support.  If you believe, then yes, you

are saved.

 

 

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:18:36 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      new format

 

I want to thank James for summing up the pros and cons of both the past

and current "reply" formats.  The current format will make it easier for

those who want to send their message to the whole list.  However, this

means that you have to think about whether you want your message to go

to the whole list or just to the person sending the message.   If people

begin to post messages to the list that are intended only for the sender

or begin to engage in private conversations on the list, then James is

right:  the traffic on the list will become overwhelmingand people who

find their mailboxes full of irrelevant messages will sign-off the list.

I guess if we find that this happens, we'll have to change the

"reply"default back.    Also, please remember when replying to long

messages to "snip" or summarize the message you're replying to rather

than repeat the whole message as some people have been doing.  This will

save us all some time.  Taking care to correctly identify the "subject"

of your message will also help, allowing those who are uninterested in

that subject to delete your post without having to read it.  I'm very

happy to see some exciting threads developing and that we're back to

discussing literature again.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:04:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: new format

 

In a message dated 97-08-17 13:30:06 EDT, you write:

 

<< Also, please remember when replying to long

 messages to "snip" or summarize the message you're replying to >>

 

Yeah... puhleeze...

 

Since the posts come out of order frequently, it seems like it would be a

good idea to make sure the original sender's name is in that line at the top,

the one that says, "In a message dated x/y/z, Suzie Creemcheeze writes:"

instead of that stock retort, which says only "...you write:".

 

That way people can find the original post, in case it did arrive after the

reply.

 

But if the only thing that results from the formatting discussion is a

cessation of personal posts to the list, that will certainly be enough.

 

ddr

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:15:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      format

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I can elect to reply to the poster or to all.  This was true under the

old format too.  I then can delete one if I care to do so.  The "old"

format is easier to back channel.  The new one is more difficult to back

channel but easier to reply to the list.  Under the old one, people

could get messages twice when someone wanted to reply to the list and

hit reply to sender and and all receipents.  So, it is possible to get

dual messages when one forgets to erase the individual.  To me, I don't

care.  It just seems you make a choice for it to be easier to back

channel or easier to reply on the list.  Either way, duplicates or

undesirable email will be in the mail box.

 

Bill, I vote for either way and do not care.  I presume that you

switched back because of requests.  Now the other side requests to go

back.  Suits me either way.

 

And it does seem that your email bounces.  Why is that?

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 03:17:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: new format

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I, for one, am thrilled with the change back to original format.  Thanks

Bill!  I don't think it's terribly hard to remember that your post is

being read by 200+ people and should be written as such.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:01:06 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

Comments: cc: SSASN@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> RACE wrote:

> What i am

> suggesting also in no way is a claim that your current reading is a

> misunderstanding or misconception.  Rather what i'm trying to find the

> words to breakthrough with here is that the beginning section can be

> read as developing a far more general theory concerning addiction and

> control and even Control with a capital "C".  Such a reading views the

> poetry of junk as a poetic example of the larger notion.

>         The particular kind of vicious cycle described here is a

> powerful

> general theory which can be translated across addictions and even as

> far

> as considering addictions to the virus of words and the control of

> space/time and the addiction to finding immortality.  Throughout the

> writings of WSB, it always seems to me, that coming back to these

> beginnings in Naked Lunch can provide a powerful lens into the future

> project.

 

It is easy to view the beginning of Naked Lunch as about junk literally,

and on another level, as a breaking down of society as a whole into

groups that feed and play off one another in terms of who has control and

who is caught in the mirky depths of no control, those people scattered

about, needing the kind of hand-me-downs, caught in the you-get-

only-what-we-want-you-to-have spiral.  Space/time distortions are evident

in the movement of the narrator. There is an analysis of need that

transcends time and place, so to speak. I'm having trouble here, early

on though, in having any grasp your "virus of words" concept.

 

> The second thing is that the technique employed in developing Naked

> Lunch of cut-up (cut and paste, splice, word montage - whatever) both

> presents a clear picture and something of a non-linear image that

> breaks

> through pre-recordings.  In reading WSB, one can merely accept the

> pre-recording of the book as published or appreciate this version and

> also glance around the montage of words for portraits of further

> meanings yet to be exposed.

I am trying to be open to all possible meanings as I read this.  Is

Burroughs' pre-recorded universe the comings and goings of daily life,

touched as it is by the element of fate?  The individuals in the junk

(broadly used) world he is writing about seem to have little power to

ease the futility of their situation.  Does the narrator have power in

his observations and the words he uses, or is he merely a scribe forced

to write about that which he cannot change?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:18:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

Comments: cc: SSASN@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> RACE wrote:

> I'm not certain that "lie" is it.  Unless the Lie is in only one angle

> on truth.  It doesn't seem to me a particularly moralish notion as Lie

> sometimes suggests - what constitutes the Big Lie is factually accurate

> from a particular point of view, from a particular angle.  What is

> exposed is the multiplicity of angles.

Maybe I'm missing something but where did this idea of the Big Lie come

from?  It seems to me that Burrough's notion of the universe is equal

part big lie and big truth.  The notion of a creator playing with the

creation comes to mind.  There's a natural order of things and an

inversion of the natural order of things.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:24:29 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      missile anus

Content-Type: text

 

Greetings!

1) I like the new format (that is, the old format to which we have

returned);

2) regarding the romantic possibility that Burroughs died because his

true love Ginsberg died: as Jake says in the conclusion of Hemingway's

_The Sun Also Rises_, "Isn't it pretty to think so."

Jack Kerouac: "Unrequited love's a bore."

3) regarding C. Plymell's "remorsing" over the number of dead animals

on the road, you might find amusing the following poem of mine published

in the _Kentucky Poetry Review_ (Fall/Winter 1989/1990):

                SIGNS

GAME CROSSING the sign read--

I imagined them hunkering across

I-80: Monopoly, Clue, Backgammon, Chess.

The chicken that crossed the road

to tell a joke. Debris is grimmer:

prairie dogs crushed on the pavement (blackbirds

dart down, daring the traffic for a carcass

morsel), and wolves, raccoons, and skunks

punctuate the margin of the highway.

Were they thrown there by the impact,

or did they drag their battered bodies

there to die, escaping further

shame as tire-desecrated corpses,

cantilevered jaws agape in deadly empty screams?

Cordially,

Mike Skau

8/17/97

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:28:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      bless you, bill!

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997081713294955@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Also, please remember when replying to long

messages to "snip" or summarize the message you're replying to rather

than repeat the whole message as some people have been doing.  This will

save us all some time.  Taking care to correctly identify the "subject"

of your message will also help, allowing those who are uninterested in

that subject to delete your post without having to read it.  I'm very

happy to see some exciting threads developing and that we're back to

discussing literature again.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:38:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Naked Lunch passage

MIME-Version: 1.0

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I don't know if all editions of Naked Lunch have the same page numbers,

but this passage is on pages 19-20.  It seemed important, beyond

elements of pot paranoia, and effective, but I can't explain why.  Is

Jane is real-life wife?  Does anyone have any ideas about interpretation?

 

"...Jane meets a pimp trombone player and dissappears in a cloud of tea

smoke.  The pimp is one of these vibration and dietary artists--which

means he degrades the female sex by forcing his chicks to swallow all his

shit.  He was continually enlarging his theories...he would quiz a chick

and threaten to walk out if she hadn't memorized every nuance of his

latest assault on logic and the human image...He was a ritual tea smoker

and very puritanical about junk the way some teaheads are.  He claimed

tea put him in touch with supra blue gravitational fields.  He had ideas

on every subject: what kind of underwear was healthy, when to drink

water, and how to wipe your ass.  He had a shiny red face and great

spreading smooth nose, little red eyes that lit up when he looked at a

chick and went out when he looked at anything else.  His shoulders were

broad and suggested deformity.  He acted as if other men did not exist,

conveying his restaurant and store orders to male personnel through a

female intermidiary.  And no Man ever invaded his blighted, secret place.

So he is putting down junk and coming on with tea.  I take three drags,

Jane looked at him and her flesh crystallized.  I leaped up screaming 'I

got the fear!' and ran out of the house.  Drank a beer in a little

restaurant--mosaic bar and soccer scores and bullfight posters--and

waited for the bus to town.

A year later in Tangier I heard she was dead."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:37:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

 

           I like "There's a natural order of

things and an inversion of the natural order of things." I feel that

best sums

up the world NL takes place in: if not

the inversion of the natural order of

things, then certainly the world (or his

view of the it) turned inside out (?). The

negative of what we perceive as reality.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:07:24 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch

 

In a message dated 97-08-17 16:58:34 EDT, you write:

 

<<  Who cares?!  I don't know.  Am glad that it ended when

 it did, before someone pulled out the machete and started hacking their

 computer to death.  Surprised James didn't write me personally and tell me

 to shut the fuck up. >>

 

Is this a disease of newsgroups? This pissy, petulant sarcasm launched

against even the slightest of rubs?

 

This is the kind of crap that has made me sign off three times so far.

 

Douglas, shut the fuck up, okay?

 

diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:31:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Naked Lunch: Benway

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

This actually is beginning to read more like scenes from a movie script,

or maybe it's just that the content of Benway reminds me of some old

fuzzy Planet of the Apes movie.  Close to walking through the wards of an

ugly insane asylum but I'm always wondering why the narrator is on the

outside looking in.  Couple of things to note:

 

pg. 37

"Gentle reader, the ugliness of that spectacle buggers description.  Who

can be a cringing pissing coward, yet vicious as a purple-assed mandril,

alternating these deplorable conditions like vaudeville skits?  Who can

shit on a fallen adversary who, dying, easts the shit and screams with

joy? [this was reminiscent stanzas of Howl that all being with who,

and especially where Ginsberg writes, "Who let themselves be fucked in

the ass by saintly motorcyclists and screemed with joy"]  Who can hang a

weak passive and catch the sperm in his mouth like a vivious dog?  Gentle

reader, I fain would spare you this, but my pen hath its will like the

Ancient Mariner.  Oh Christ what a scene is this!  Can tongue or pen

accommodate these scandels?  A beastly young hooligan has gouged out the

eye of his confrere and fuck him in the brain. 'This brain atrophy

already, and dry as grandmother's cunt."

 

You have to admire Burroughs vivid descriptions, although it's hard to

figure out what brings about these visions where everything is out of

Control:

 

"Rock and Roll adolescent hoodlums storm the streets of all nations.

They rush into the Louvre and throw acid on Mona Lisa's face.  They open

zoos, insane asylums, prisons, burst water mains with air hammers, chop

the floor out of passenger plane lavatories, shoot out lighthouses, file

elevator cables to one thin wire, turn sewers into the water supply,

throw sharks and sting rays, electric eels and candiru into swimming

pools (the candiru is a small eel-like fish or worm about one-quarter

inch through and two inches long patronizing certain rivers of ill repute

in the Greater Amazon Basin, will dart up your prick or your asshole or a

woman's cunt faute de mieux, and hold himself there by sharp spines with

precisely what motives is not known since no one has stepped forward to

observe the candiru's life-cycle in situ), in nautical costumes ram the

Queen Mary full speed into New York Harbor, play chicken with passenger

planes and buses, rush into hospital with white coats carrying saws and

axes and scalpels three feet long; throw paralytics out of iron lungs

(mimic their suffocations flopping about on the floor and rolling their

eyes up), administer injections with bicycle pumps, disconnect artificial

kidneys, saw a woman in half with a two-man surgical saw, they drive

herds of squeeling pigs into the Curb, they shit on the floors of the

United Nations and wipe their asses with treaties, pacts, and alliances."

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 05:38:05 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      On the Road: drunkenness

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

On the Road, pg. 39, when he is describing Dean's (Neal's) father,

Kerouac writes, "His father, once a respectable and hardworking tinsmith,

had become a wine alcoholic, which is worse than a whiskey alcoholic..."

 

>From Kerouac's descriptions in all the later books, he was himself always

drinking wine and not whiskey.  Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a

whiskey alcoholic?  Any ideas?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 14:39:09 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane De Rooy wrote:

> 

> This is the kind of crap that has made me sign off three times so far.

> 

> Douglas, shut the fuck up, okay?

> 

Diane,

 

Thanks for rising to my defense.  Hadn't noticed doug's little poke

before you pointed it out because I had been instantly deleting him--as

you tend to do with folks who post so much that they need several

different addresses to avoid having any problems with the ten post

limit, or whatever it is.

 

Was it Yeats who said, "The best lack all conviction/ While the worst

are full of a passionate intensity"?

 

J Stauffer

> diane

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:45:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: drunkenness

In-Reply-To:  <33F6F0AD.1B7B@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

it all sounds like changing seats on the titanic, to me.

hey DC!

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:08:54 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      event horizon (theory & spoilers)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

ok, just mustered home from the movie, "event horizon".  some comments:

 

ok, perhaps in the battle of death vs aesthetics, I am willing to concede

that death has the final hand.  <<perhaps>>  movie questions the big lie,

technology, human experience, and the reaches of understanding.  Very

similar to Lem's "solaris" (and as filmed by Tarkovsky).

 

you build a machine, you keep secrets, you explore.  thing returns with

life of own.  Crew destroyed by madness and their own hells.  The machine

is alive, sir.  The machine is alive.  "do you see?"  "yes, I see".

 

oh, how technology is used to enhance our lives.  this goes without

question.  optimism has seen blood shed, has become academic shooting

galleries.  heroine for the brain.  william tell for the soul.  fuck you,

fuck you.

 

oh, I have to admit the movie scares me.  Scares me like Naked Lunch scares

me.  Remember making it thru half of the book and then putting it down,

running in horror.  Still don't think I have enough of a grip on life to

read it again.

 

and then writing out of it.  believing that creativity is the life raft of

a consciousness.  not blocking its progress with the whatfors, the

questions of what makes _its_ inner workings tick.  This is another lie.

That outside of technology, outside of humour, outside of it all, there

rests another solution.  Well, I guess there are solutions.  There are

fail-safe plans.  And the overrides?  What of them?  The machine is alive,

I tell you.  Do you see?  "yes, I see".

 

Oedipus and his mother, his father, his adopted parents, his children.

Fucking tragic tale.  Wish I knew more about it.  How it relates to the

popcorn I was eating, how it relates to the lady behind me who jokingly

remarked to her companion, "ah, the best capitalism has to offer".  What is

that,  I wondered, not wanting to turn around and ask.

 

and in this chaotic vision, there are those that refuse to return.  those

will live.  yes, those that will life.  Probably why in pre-enlightened

days, such knowledge was preserved in a few people, knowledge was granted

over time in strict, controlled ways.  All of that is gone now.  Reading

before the movie a new book by Todd Oldham, fashion designer.  He's talking

about how 100, no 30 years ago, "creativity" must have been different.  No

pressing techo eyes forcing their, causing your own eyes to bug out.  He

says that only he, he has survived because of an "idiot savant" tendancy.

just flits and trusts his way around.  Takes care of his people, I imagine.

 

and it's why I think literature and all it's cracked up to be on this list

is such a big houey.  Life is bigger than a few interesting posts on

"literature".  Oh, so glad to be talking about "literature" again.  Just an

academic shooting gallery for control freaks, IMHO.  been there, done that,

and don't want to return just yet, thank you.  Oh, I don't know.  I don't

know.

 

am wondering if and what WSB would have said.  Does Naked Lunch have a

happy ending?  Thinking about a question Diane Carter asked a while back

regarding Kerouac and his view of the world?  Something like, "where has

the joy in the joy/darkness paradigm gone?".  Hm.  You create something to

run away from something else.  And what you've created begins a life of

it's own.  And then wham bam thank you mame, you're back where you started

from.  The vicious cycle.  the vicious cycle.

 

so what role does death play?  The movie "event horizon" gives a few clues

in that direction.  It fuels the fire is all I can say.  all  I can say

without rambling on more.  without bringing in other references.  Fire walk

with me.  Firewalker.

 

returning to the son, I used to be.  Hell me, I'm falling....

 

>> Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |

step aside, and let the man go thru     |  { -  |

        ---->  let the man go thru      |  /\   |

super bon-bon (soul coughing)           =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:13:17 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      Re: new format

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>In a message dated 97-08-17 13:30:06 EDT, you write:

 

>In a message dated x/y/z, Suzie Creemcheeze writes:

>If the only thing that results from the formatting discussion is a

>cessation of personal posts to the list, that will certainly be enough.

> 

>ddr

> 

  What's a "personal post"?  I've got an idea but it's making me giggle.

  If it's left to the individual subscriber to decide what is

list-pertinent, there's still no way to avoid getting messages which may be

better sent privately [like that one which told Douglas (I believe it was)

to "shut the fuck up"].

  Anyway, I'm all for the new format as I understand it.  It's no different.

People are going to be shits under any format.

 

                                                    James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 06:29:42 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

> James Stauffer wrote:

 

> Was it Yeats who said, "The best lack all conviction/ While the worst

> are full of a passionate intensity"?

 

Yes, in his poem, The Second Coming.  He also said in the same verse:

"The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world"

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:42:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Some of the Dharma - Publisher Weeklys reviews

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I have posted Publisher Weekly's review of Some of the Dharma:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page3.html

 

Please send me any clippings of this book via e-mail for web page posting.

 

Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly. . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:28:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Carrie Sherlock <csherloc@UOGUELPH.CA>

Subject:      Lou Reed and the Beats

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

What was the extent of the relationship with, or the influence of, the

beats and Lou Reed?

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:41:47 -0400

Reply-To:     Corduroy <corduroy@earthlink.net>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Corduroy <corduroy@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      DigitalDharma

Comments: To: Bohemian Mailing List <BOHEMIAN@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>

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 Digital Dharma

 

 

http://www.microaero.com/snarg/index_main.html

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Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:04:27 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Some of the Dharma - Publisher Weeklys reviews

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Thanks for this Paul,

 

The Kirkus review was strange in its' hostility.

 

That bothers me none.  I have no problem with opinions.  But in this case

the writers ignorance was shown.

 

He/She wrote that it seemed Kerouac was trying to imitate Burroughs cut-up

technique.

 

kerouac was working on this between 53 and 55 or so, a number of years

before Burroughs began the cut-up as we know it.

 

The writer acts as if kerouac read Burroughs books or something and was

imitating them.

 

 

At 07:42 PM 8/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>I have posted Publisher Weekly's review of Some of the Dharma:

> 

>http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page3.html

> 

>Please send me any clippings of this book via e-mail for web page posting.

> 

>Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly. . .

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 22:16:21 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Some of the Dharma - Publisher Weeklys reviews

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At 06:04 PM 8/17/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Thanks for this Paul,

> 

>The Kirkus review was strange in its' hostility.

> 

>That bothers me none.  I have no problem with opinions.  But in this case

>the writers ignorance was shown.

> 

>He/She wrote that it seemed Kerouac was trying to imitate Burroughs cut-up

>technique.

> 

>kerouac was working on this between 53 and 55 or so, a number of years

>before Burroughs began the cut-up as we know it.

> 

>The writer acts as if kerouac read Burroughs books or something and was

>imitating them.

> 

> 

>At 07:42 PM 8/17/97 -0400, you wrote:

>>I have posted Publisher Weekly's review of Some of the Dharma:

>> 

>>http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page3.html

>> 

>>Please send me any clippings of this book via e-mail for web page posting.

>> 

>>Thanks, Paul of The Kerouac Quarterly. . .

>> 

>> 

>Yes. . .it was a very slanted view from what seemed to be a critic

disturbed by Kerouac's seemingly misogynistic tone "PRETTY GIRLS MAKE GRAVES

F**K you all"

It is best not to approach such a biased review intellectually. Kerouac put

up with such nonsense (i.e. Norman Podhoretz for example) all his life. I

think Some of the Dharma tops the best of his published works. It is a

searching, mature, experimental writer we are reading by this time (mid -

1950's).

Best, Paul. . .

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 19:31:11 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Please Mr. Johnson, Hand Me a Winner

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Bentz,

 

I was reading too fast the first time this came through.

 

Was going through things to forward to a friend and reread it.

 

Flattered at being mentioned in such exalted company.

 

Nice work.

 

James

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:15:03 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      unfair aurguments with existence

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hello all. just returned from a trip to new orkeans, and been

listening in some to know what's happening. picked up a cool little

ferlinghetti book, unfair aurguments with existence, it's some of his

drama. anyone know anything about it? i guess i will buy a copy of

naked lunch too, as that seems to be the current topic. anyone ever

listen to the movie's soundtrack? that is just phenomenal! one of my

favorite cds. is gregory corso still living in italy? i heard he

moved there for heroin cy~a randy

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Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:19:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: drunkenness

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Just tentative impressions, not hard conclusions, but you asked for =

ideas. =20

 

Whiskey alcoholics generally more alive,  tend to act on their stirring =

impulses, to splash about vigorously except when approaching total =

collapse,  the periods of recuperation when they are totally passed out. =

Winos tend to be more slurred, defeated, drowning, vegetating, more =

inocuous, less combative, less aggressive acting outless destructive =

actions or poor judgement exercised, more chronically douzed, less =

alive, less effectively dangerous also.=20

 

----------

From:   Diane Carter[SMTP:dcarter@TOGETHER.NET]

Sent:   Sunday, August 17, 1997 5:38 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        On the Road: drunkenness

 

.  Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a

whiskey alcoholic?  Any ideas?

DC

.-

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:40:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: On death and dying........

 

In a message dated 97-08-15 14:39:05 EDT, you write:

 

<<  In retrospect, I do think it odd

 that I chose a sample of his ("When death becomes you...") as part of my

 contribution to a net-based tape loop project going on in the weeks just

 before his death. All those unsuspecting tape recorders playing this

 message, just before he died -- hmm, I wonder if he would have gotten a kick

 out of that. >>

Does anybody else think it odd, that having lost Uncle Bill, then a few days

later Fela Kuti, that I made a special visit to the Indian/Pakistani

neighborhood in Chicago,  to buy a hard to find variety of couscous and a few

CDs/cassettes by Nusfrat Fateh Ali Kahn (sp?),  to find _his_ obit in the

Sunday paper?????????

 

   Seems like all my heros are dropping like the flies........

 

                                                r.i.p. et.al..........

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:40:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: D & D

 

In a message dated 97-08-15 14:39:05 EDT, you write:

 

<<  I do think it odd >>

 

 

Can anyone give me a clue on the Burroughs track that I know I have but

cannot locate--on On-U records---a sample of him chanting "

pay it all back, pay it AAAAllllll back" (inimatable style).............

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:42:59 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: ferling, etc

 

Ferlinghetti's newest book "A Far Rockaway of the Heart" has been out for a

few months now from New Directions and it continues the tradition of "A Coney

Island of the Mind".  Well worth looking into, one of his better efforts of

late.

Yours,

Bill Morgan

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:53:57 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Burroughs]

 

----------

From:   R. Bentz Kirby[SMTP:bocelts@SCSN.NET]

Sent:   Saturday, August 16, 1997 8:00 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        [Fwd: Burroughs]

 

Well, I have been scanning the Dylan list for some more good Burroughs

posts.  And I couldn't find anymore, so the action must have died down.

But since the beats play cosmic baseball on the net, and since the

action has dwindled, I did find this fine reference to Cal Ripken and

Eddie Murray.  Seems timely since Anaheim just cut Eddie.

 

I know, or at least believe Jack was

very much into baseball. How about Neal, or any others.

 

Neal didn't talk much about baseball. He followed races with intense

enthusiasm. Watched all the races he could on TV, kept track of outcomes,

drivers, etc.. Tried to make it to the horse races whenever he could. When

he worked in Los Gatos he tried to make it to all the Saturday afternoon

last races at Belmont which were free. He also collected all the Chronicle

Green Sheets with results from the horse races, compiling proof of his

theory that if you had simutaneously stationed people to bet on third

choice in all the races across the country that you would win big. Never

was able to convince enough investors to follow through, inspite of his

closet full Green pages that he used to try to prove his theory.

 

leon

 

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end

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Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 01:30:11 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> Maybe I'm missing something but where did this idea of the Big Lie come

> from?

Douglas was using it.

 

It seems to me that Burrough's notion of the universe is equal

> part big lie and big truth.  The notion of a creator playing with the

> creation comes to mind.  There's a natural order of things and an

> inversion of the natural order of things.

> DC

 

inversions twisting angles all seems good.  i think big lie probably

confuses things somewhat.  also humour especially dark-types is one way

to invert and twist the angles of truth and justice and american way and

whatnot to get all the shitout of the shithouse.  i believe that is

about all i have to say until i get the book tuesday or wednesday.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 00:50:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      don't go to sleep mad (was:  Naked Lunch)

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who gave that advice?  And what was the second couplet line:  "just go

away..."?

 

I figure I oughta speak out, get what's off my chest before I went to

sleep.  Have been thinking about this for a while now.  Still not sure how

to accurately respond.  You ask me not to speak, not to post to the list.

Have been thinking about the obsecenity trials, about WSB's reflection on

Ginsberg and his fight against the big lies.  About the youth of America.

about my life.

 

Hopefully my dreams tonight will guide me to a better answer than this

rambling mess.  Have to ask "why go on?"  Love, I guess.  that helps.  But

it's more than that, I suppose.  Why creative types do what they do.

Popularity?  Control?  Fear? and back again to love, I guess, but eeew, who

wants to say that?

 

It's so simple, I guess.  My two best friends are out of town tonight.  I

wish I could call them and chit chat over all of this.  get some good

advice.  Started "western lands" tonight.  need to get back to Joyce and

Dali, too.

 

I don't have it in me to fight with you.  Just don't blame me for your

decisions to unsubscribe.  Don't make this into a popularity contest.  And

please, if you're gonna criticism my posts, please have the decency to read

them first.  but I'm not even sure I want you to do that.  It's obvious

we're not going to be much, friends.  But I'll tell you anyhow the "beat"

issues I'm currently dealing with:

 

        - the role of death in the joy/darkness paradigm (DC, Kerouac

discussion)

        - "Why go on?" (WSB, June 6)

        - the big lie, the green tit, and hole punching holy holy across

the sky (WSB, May 25)

        - WSB's relation to music and the arts (as exemplified by the LACMA

show)

        - the land of the dead, the western lands, the event horizon (what

are the links?)

        - soon, WSB's relation to James Joyce's "Bloom"

        - the paranoid-critical method of salvador dali

        - the "surrealist" landscapes of yves tanguey

        - the cut-up method, appropriation, escaping the vicious cycle

        - writing a way out of death

 

and then some.  Check out my home page for the visual interpretations.

Maybe we still have something to talk about??

 

and I kept thinking of what "cute" comment I'd make.  the snide jab.  The

best I could come up with is from WSB's New Yorker diary entry dated May

31, Saturday:

 

        <<snip>> "No letters.

 

        How good will it be to have total conformity?

        What will be left of singularity?

        And personality?  And you and me?"

 

That and how it relates to our new techno-email age.  Nobody writes letters

anymore (snail).  What will the historians of the future do with all this

"ink"?  And singularities, my god.   Soon, I will have an engine capable of

dealing with those entities.

 

oh, oh, oh.  Hopefully, I'll be able to fall asleep soon.

 

Douglas

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

At 2:07 PM -0700 8/17/97, Diane De Rooy wrote:

 

 

> In a message dated 97-08-17 16:58:34 EDT, you write:

> 

> <<  Who cares?!  I don't know.  Am glad that it ended when

>  it did, before someone pulled out the machete and started hacking their

>  computer to death.  Surprised James didn't write me personally and tell me

>  to shut the fuck up. >>

> 

> Is this a disease of newsgroups? This pissy, petulant sarcasm launched

> against even the slightest of rubs?

> 

> This is the kind of crap that has made me sign off three times so far.

> 

> Douglas, shut the fuck up, okay?

> 

> diane

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |               The map is

not the territory

                                |  { -  |                --Korzybski

        ---->                   |  /\   |

                                =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:02:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Eric Blanco <Chimera@WEBTV.NET>

Subject:      Re: Lou Reed and the Beats

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          Hello everybody:

I don't know if you would consider any

of the following a connection, buuuuutt...

according to the booklet that came with

the LR box set, "Between Thought And

Expression":

 

             In 1959, while at NYU, Reed was

an avid contemporary jazz buff, programming a jazz radio show, and into

the music of Monk, Coltrane and Coleman.

 

               He was a great admirer of the

poet, essayist and short story writer

Delmore Shwartz (In Dreams Begin

Responsibilities, pub.1937). Would he

be considered a Beat or an influence on

them? Shwartz inspired Reed to study the

works of Joyce and Keats, and it was

during this time that Lou wrote the Velvet

Underground classic "Heroin".

 

                   On the back cover of Reed's

"The Blue Mask" lp, Lou dedicated the

song "My House" to Shwatrz. Burroughs

might have been a big influence as well,

at least during Reeds' VU days.

"Waiting For The Man" ( "The man is never on time. This is no

accident."-taken

from the intro to NL), "Sister Ray", "Venus

In Furs", "The Black Angel's Death Song"

(his vocal delivery here, in fact, his way

of talk-singing in general, might be considered Beat-ish.), probably any

of

these songs, or the VU's first three albums, would make a terrific

soundtrack

to NL. Junky-according to the booklet that

came with the VU box set "Peel Slowly

And See"-thanks to WSB's confessional

style and wit (still going by the booket,

I haven't read Junky yet) inspired Reed

to write Heroin.

 

                     I'll be the first to say that I'm

reaching with all this, but any excuse to

talk about LR/VU is a good one. I wish

everyone on the list a wonderful week.

 

                                           Chimera

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:23:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: drunkenness

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     No, I'm not starting my "alcoholic" diatribe again but I thought I'd

     respond to this.

 

     In the purest sense alcoholism is alcoholism; however, I will concede

     wine and whiskey do produce different "drunks" due to their chemical

     compositions.  Strangely enough whiskey and other hard liquor destroys

     the mucin lining the stomach at a quicker rate than wine.  So maybe,

     (or maybe not) if Jack had stuck to Tokay we would have had him around

     a little longer (probably not).  It's *my opinion* that wine is more

     aggravating to the system and hence produces more vomiting which would

     have lead to bleeding varicies in the throat and a hemorrage vs.

     destroying the mucin lining and dying of a "middle-gi" hemmorage.

 

     Jack was right, but he didn't know by how much.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: On the Road: drunkenness

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    8/17/97 5:38 AM

 

 

On the Road, pg. 39, when he is describing Dean's (Neal's) father,

Kerouac writes, "His father, once a respectable and hardworking tinsmith,

had become a wine alcoholic, which is worse than a whiskey alcoholic..."

 

>From Kerouac's descriptions in all the later books, he was himself always

drinking wine and not whiskey.  Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a

whiskey alcoholic?  Any ideas?

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:25:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Lou Reed and the Beats

Mime-Version: 1.0

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     Correct me if I'm wrong, oh those more knowledgeable than me" but

     didn't WSB hang out with Andy Warhol?  If so there's a connection, if

     not an influence.

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Lou Reed and the Beats

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    8/17/97 7:28 PM

 

 

What was the extent of the relationship with, or the influence of, the

beats and Lou Reed?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:56:35 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: drunkenness

In-Reply-To:  <01BCAB4B.0EFEAE80@mbay69.cruzio.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

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Whiskey is expensive. Whiskey alcoholics have more money. By the time the

alcoholic gets to wine he/she is usually close to the bottom of the

economic ladder.

 

j grant

 

 

>Just tentative impressions, not hard conclusions, but you asked for ideas.

> 

>Whiskey alcoholics generally more alive,  tend to act on their stirring

>impulses, to splash about vigorously except when approaching total

>collapse,  the periods of recuperation when they are totally passed out.

>Winos tend to be more slurred, defeated, drowning, vegetating, more

>inocuous, less combative, less aggressive acting outless destructive

>actions or poor judgement exercised, more chronically douzed, less alive,

>less effectively dangerous also.

> 

>----------

>From:   Diane Carter[SMTP:dcarter@TOGETHER.NET]

>Sent:   Sunday, August 17, 1997 5:38 AM

>To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>Subject:        On the Road: drunkenness

> 

>.  Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a

>whiskey alcoholic?  Any ideas?

>DC

>.-

 

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

    http://www.bookzen.com/addbook-form.html

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 10:18:29 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Benway

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Diane writ:

 

<< 

>pg. 37

>"Gentle reader, the ugliness of that spectacle buggers description.  Who

>can be a cringing pissing coward, yet vicious as a purple-assed mandril,

>alternating these deplorable conditions like vaudeville skits?  Who can

>shit on a fallen adversary who, dying, easts the shit and screams with

>joy? [this was reminiscent stanzas of Howl that all being with who,

>and especially where Ginsberg writes, "Who let themselves be fucked in

>the ass by saintly motorcyclists and screemed with joy"]  Who can hang a

>weak passive and catch the sperm in his mouth like a vivious dog?  Gentle

>reader, I fain would spare you this, but my pen hath its will like the

>Ancient Mariner.  Oh Christ what a scene is this!  Can tongue or pen

>accommodate these scandels?  A beastly young hooligan has gouged out the

>eye of his confrere and fuck him in the brain. 'This brain atrophy

>already, and dry as grandmother's cunt."

>> 

 

Diane, as always, thanx for typin out all this.  My hands would hurt.

 

I especially liked the 'eye gouging' part.  So many poets have eye

fetishes.  The denigration of the bodily act, the removal from the body,

and it's associations with dark and perverted actions.  Then associating

all of this with different layers of meaning.  Goes back to the Oedipus

thoughts I had while watching the movie "event horizon".  One can also

get into dreams and their visions from here also.  Perhaps this is a

clue towards your questions of why Burroughs is always writing from the

outside <??>

 

<< 

>You have to admire Burroughs vivid descriptions, although it's hard to

>figure out what brings about these visions where everything is out of

>Control:

> 

>"Rock and Roll adolescent hoodlums storm the streets of all nations.

>They rush into the Louvre and throw acid on Mona Lisa's face.  They open

>zoos, insane asylums, prisons, burst water mains with air hammers, chop

>the floor out of passenger plane lavatories, shoot out lighthouses, file

>elevator cables to one thin wire, turn sewers into the water supply,

>throw sharks and sting rays, electric eels and candiru into swimming

>pools (the candiru is a small eel-like fish or worm about one-quarter

>inch through and two inches long patronizing certain rivers of ill repute

>in the Greater Amazon Basin, will dart up your prick or your asshole or a

>woman's cunt faute de mieux, and hold himself there by sharp spines with

>precisely what motives is not known since no one has stepped forward to

>observe the candiru's life-cycle in situ), in nautical costumes ram the

>Queen Mary full speed into New York Harbor, play chicken with passenger

>planes and buses, rush into hospital with white coats carrying saws and

>axes and scalpels three feet long; throw paralytics out of iron lungs

>(mimic their suffocations flopping about on the floor and rolling their

>eyes up), administer injections with bicycle pumps, disconnect artificial

>kidneys, saw a woman in half with a two-man surgical saw, they drive

>herds of squeeling pigs into the Curb, they shit on the floors of the

>United Nations and wipe their asses with treaties, pacts, and alliances."

>> 

 

Have you ever been stuck in a bathroom line, Diane?  just holding it in,

watching all these men go ahead of you into their own stalls?  Questions

and visions such as those above begin to creep in.  Destroying the order

as it appears to you thru a yellow, jaundiced eye.  Rationalizing the

acts of madmen who do all these incalculable things.  Inverting the

natural order and following that back to it's source.  Makes me think of

the TV shows "x-files" and "millenium" (by Chris Carter).  Getting into

the mind of chaos, as burroughs says, unable to stop his pen or tongue

from writing all that out.  And I won't go as far as say that his

descriptions are an apology, are an act of "writing away death" per se.

I don't know.

 

and by the way, did you ever get a satisfactory answer to this question:

 

"Does the narrator have power in

his observations and the words he uses, or is he merely a scribe forced

to write about that which he cannot change?"

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:14:44 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: On the Road: drunkenness

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>Whiskey is expensive. Whiskey alcoholics have more money. By the time the

>alcoholic gets to wine he/she is usually close to the bottom of the

>economic ladder.

 

>j grant

 

     "...the bottom ofthe economic ladder."  To keep this within the

     framework of the BEAT-L list I'll phrase my reply this way.  Since

     Jack was never un-voluntarily homeless, always had *some* money, and

     most likely died from the consequences of alcoholism, you can draw the

     conclusion that there is no such thing as "economic alcoholism".

     Alcoholics come in all lifestyles, economic classes and ethnic

     backgrounds, from both genders.  While there probably aren't as many

     alcoholic millionaires as there are broke ones, the view that the only

     people suffering from alcoholism are "bums on the street" went out a

     long time ago.  Heck, I even know a recovering alcoholic who owns a

     computer :-)

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:12:15 +0000

Reply-To:     randyr@southeast.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Comments:     Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>

From:         randy royal <randyr@SOUTHEAST.NET>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: drunkenness

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> Whiskey is expensive. Whiskey alcoholics have more money. By the time the

> alcoholic gets to wine he/she is usually close to the bottom of the

> economic ladder.

 

perhaps jack just liked wine?

 

> 

> j grant

randy

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:47:28 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Lou Reed and the Beats

In-Reply-To:  <3F87BB00.@usoc.org>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, MATT HANNAN wrote:

 

>      Correct me if I'm wrong, oh those more knowledgeable than me" but

>      didn't WSB hang out with Andy Warhol?  If so there's a connection, if

>      not an influence.

> 

>      love and lilies,

> 

>      matt

> 

 

Actually, it was Allen Ginsberg who hung out with Warhol back in the 60's

when Warhol was hot.  Burroughs was living in London so wouldnt have met

Warhol until many years later when Warhol was past his "fifteen minutes"

of fame and past when Burroughs hadwritten mostof his works.  So Idont

think there was a direct influence.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:34:28 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch (fwd)

Mime-Version: 1.0

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yall

i thought that some of you might be interesteed in this, which i found on

alt.books.beatgeneration (man there is a lot of junk and trolling on that

newsgroup, egad!)

yrs

derek

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:48:34 -0700

From: Richard Hughey <rkhughey@pacbell.net>

Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

Subject: Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch

 

New book on Lew Welch: Hey Lew! Homage to Lew Welch.

Interviews, poems, biosketches, photos, drawings etc.

on S.F. BeatGen poet Lew Welch.

Edited by Magda Cregg, who lived with Lew 1964-1971.

Contributors: Snyder, Whelan, Creeley, Meltzer, Kyger,

McClure etc., also Peter Coyote and Huey Lewis.

Write Magda Cregg, Box 964, Bolinas CA 94924.

Copies: $12 post paid.

RKH

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:13:36 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John Arthur Maynard <prinzhal@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: drunkenness

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>>.  Why is a wine alcoholic worse than a

>>whiskey alcoholic?  Any ideas?

>>DC

>>.-

I think the high sugar content (seems to me Jack often refers to "sweet

port") tends to deliver more brain-mash effect than the same dose of alcohol

administered through whisky.  That would help explain why the big sellers on

skid row and in the inner city seem to be port, tokay and rotgut sherry.

Plus, since the alcohol content is lower than whisky, you can keep drinking

longer...

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:49:18 -0700

Reply-To:     vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>

Subject:      Re: Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch (fwd)

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Hi all,

 

I recently read Aram Saroyan's Genesis Angels (good book!) and it

mentioned something interesting. According to him, during Lew Welch's

last few days at an advertising agency he culled the famous Raid slogan:

'Raid Kills Bugs Dead.'

 

How true is this? I'd like it to be true, it'd be cool to know there's a

little conribution by Welch to 20th century pop culture.

 

Anyone know the truth behind this?

 

Adrien

 

Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> 

> yall

> i thought that some of you might be interesteed in this, which i found on

> alt.books.beatgeneration (man there is a lot of junk and trolling on that

> newsgroup, egad!)

> yrs

> derek

> 

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 12:48:34 -0700

> From: Richard Hughey <rkhughey@pacbell.net>

> Newsgroups: alt.books.beatgeneration

> Subject: Hey Lew! Homage To Lew Welch

> 

> New book on Lew Welch: Hey Lew! Homage to Lew Welch.

> Interviews, poems, biosketches, photos, drawings etc.

> on S.F. BeatGen poet Lew Welch.

> Edited by Magda Cregg, who lived with Lew 1964-1971.

> Contributors: Snyder, Whelan, Creeley, Meltzer, Kyger,

> McClure etc., also Peter Coyote and Huey Lewis.

> Write Magda Cregg, Box 964, Bolinas CA 94924.

> Copies: $12 post paid.

> RKH

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:59:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Lou Reed and the Beats

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.970818154533.29685A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

              from "Richard Wallner" at Aug 18, 97 03:47:28 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Well, Lou Reed was one of the speakers at the memorial

service for Ginsberg at St. Mark's Church this past

April.  He read "Magic and Loss."  I've often thought

of Lou as fairly Beat-like, tho I don't think there

are many actual connections.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:16:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

About the Slim Gaillard trivia question posed by Antoine Maloney,

 

I don't know.

 

That's why I didn't hazard a guess.

 

As I remember it was who is Slim famous musician son-in-law.

 

OK, times up I give and it seems like no one else is going to pose an answer

so...

 

OK,  who?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:18:34 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Answer to my trivia question.

 

I asked what PBS show did Jack kerouac say the slim gaillard line "flat foot

floogie with the floy floy"?

 

If I am not mistaken I believe it was on William F. Buckeley's Firing Line.

 

Apparently Jack got up and said it somehwhat out of the blue.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 00:38:12 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Awww, mama... can this really... be the end...

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

        memphis blues again             by Bob Dylan

 

        oh the ragman draws circles

        up and down the block

        I'd ask him what the matter was

        but I know that he don't talk

        and the ladies treat me kindly

        and they furnish me with tea

        but deep inside my heart

        I know I can't escape

 

        oh mama can this really be the end

        to be stuck inside of mobile

        with the memphis blues again

 

        well shakespeare he's in the alley

        with his pointed shoes and his bells

        speaking to some french girl

        who says she knows me well

        and I would send a message

        to find out if she's talked

        but the post office has been stolen

        and the mailbox is locked

 

        mona tried to tell me

        to stay away from the train line

        she said that all the rairoad men

        just drink up your blood like wine

        and I said oh I didn't know that

        but then again there's only one I've met

        and he just smoked my eyelids

        and punched my cigarette

 

        grandpa died last week

        and now he's buried in the rocks

        but everybody still talks about

        how badly they were shocked

        but me I experienced it to happen

        I knew he'd lost control

        when he built a fire on main street

        and shot it full of holes

 

        now the senator came down here

        showing everyone his gun

        handling out free tickets

        to the wedding of his son

        but me I nearly got busted

        and wouldn't it be my luck

        to get caught without a ticket

        and be discovered beneath a truck

 

        now the tea pitcher looked so baffled

        when I asked him why he dressed

        with twenty pounds of headlines

        stapled to his chest

        but he cursed me when I proved to him

        then I whispered and said

        not even you can hide

        you see you're just like me

        I hope you're satisfied

 

        now the rainman gave me two cures

        and said jump right in

        the one was texas medicine

        the other was just railroad gin

        and like a fool I mixed them

        and it strangled up my mind

        and now people just get uglier

        and I have no sense of time

 

        when ruthie says come see her

        in her honky tonk lagoon

        where I can watch her waltz for free

        neath her panamanian moon

        and I say oh come on now

        you know you know about my debutante

        and she says your debutante just knows

        what you need

        but I know what you want

 

        now the bricks lay on the grand street

        where the neon madman climb

        they all fall there so perfectly

        they all seem so well timed

        and here I sit so patiently

        waiting to find out what price

        you have to pay to get out of

        going through all these things twice

 

        oh mama can this really be the end

        to be stuck inside of mobile

        with the memphis blues again

 

[Bob Dylan, Blonde on Blonde, 1966]

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:36:54 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Stuck inside of Mobile

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>         and I say oh come on now

>         you know you know about my debutante

>         and she says your debutante just knows

>         what you need

>         but I know what you want

> 

 

Rinaldo,

 

Thanks for posting and refreshing the memory.  It is just unreal how

"on" Dylan was in Hwy 61 and Blonde on Blonde.  Wore a lot those records

out myself, as I imagine most of us did.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 07:41:52 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Benway

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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> Penn, Douglas, K. wrote:

> Have you ever been stuck in a bathroom line, Diane?  just holding it

> in,

> watching all these men go ahead of you into their own stalls?

> Questions

> and visions such as those above begin to creep in.  Destroying the

> order

> as it appears to you thru a yellow, jaundiced eye.  Rationalizing the

> acts of madmen who do all these incalculable things.  Inverting the

> natural order and following that back to it's source.  Makes me think

> of

> the TV shows "x-files" and "millenium" (by Chris Carter).  Getting into

> the mind of chaos, as burroughs says, unable to stop his pen or tongue

> from writing all that out.  And I won't go as far as say that his

> descriptions are an apology, are an act of "writing away death" per se.

> I don't know.

 

No, never been stuck in a bathroom line waiting for the MEN to go in

before me.  But are you saying that Burroughs' descriptions in the quoted

paragraphs are just the kinds of things that come into people's head

every day as they run into things that make their bodies uncomfortable?

Is that equivalent to the discomfort of waiting for junk? Waiting for

anything? Waiting for Godot perhaps?  Dark humor.  A horror show in the

mind.  Burroughs seems to take us on a journey through the

deconstruction, perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through

horrific images but what does do his images actually evoke?  It seems

that this line of discovery would be important since individual words and

images are the only thing that hold together a work without any real

characters or progression of events.

 

> and by the way, did you ever get a satisfactory answer to this > question:

> 

> "Does the narrator have power in

> his observations and the words he uses, or is he merely a scribe forced

> to write about that which he cannot change?"

 

No, I'm still waiting for ideas, I was going to say answers, but I don;t

think there are any.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:57:22 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970816230359.006adf80@pop.gpnet.it> from "Rinaldo

              Rasa" at Aug 16, 97 11:03:59 pm

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Slightly slow response on my part, but:

 

Rinaldo wrote:

> "A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to

> remove love from his being in order to avoid,

> has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable

> to castration."-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.

> From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."

 

As somebody who calls himself a Buddhist, I'd like

to say that Burroughs comments about the religion are

at least very intelligent.  He grasps the essence

of Buddhism, which is self-denial.  I like it

when somebody comes up with a *good* reason not

to be a Buddhist, and Burroughs' reasons are good.

 

Reminds me of when I first read Neitzsche's similar

scorching of the Buddhist religion in "A Genealogy

of Morals," when I was around 19 years old.  This

led me to a crisis of faith that lasted a couple of

years.  I respect Burroughs and Neitzsche for

understanding what Buddhism is and choosing to

position themselves against it.  That's better

than flimsily paying lip service to it, or

attacking it for misinformed reasons.

 

All I can really say in counterpoint is that we

all come up with our ways of dealing with "the

slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."  I've

written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine

skin" -- that was his defense mechanism.  Neitzsche

never got a good defense mechanism going, maybe

because he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but

he lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible

misery.  The Buddhist practice is just another

way of surviving.  Ultimately I don't think

there's anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes

felt what Buddha felt when he said "All Life

is Suffering."   And I also don't think there's

any Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt

that life was just peachy keen and a whole lot

of fun.

 

As for this though:

>         "When the Vietnamese communists

>         took Saigon in 1975, they put their "class

>         enemies" into re-education camps. In

>         neighboring Cambodia, Pol Pot built exter-

>         mination camps. Techears, doctors, people

>         who could speak a foreing language, even

>         people who wore glasses, were purged as

>         he sought to reduce all of Cambodia to the

>         level of the peasant class. The Vietnamese

>         could be cruel captors, but their Confucian

>         heritage left them open to educational re-

>         form. In Cambodia, by contrast, Buddhism

>         encouraged a belief in the ineluctability

>         of karma and the idea that evil suffered

>         is evil deserved. ''The idea of karma

>         goes very deep in this society, and I

>         think that was part of the mentality of

>         the Khmer Rouge when they were massacring

>         people,'' said Francois Ponvhaud, a priest

>         who first went in Cambodia in 1965. '' They

>         believed their victims had made errors,

>         political errors, and that killing them

>         would allow them to be reborn as better

>         people in their next lives''. Pol Pot has

>         admitted to some mistakes in the period

>         from 1975 to 1979, but in his eyes they

>         were mistakes of policy. About the million

>         dead, he has never expressed any remorse."

>         From "Terry McCarthy-- TIME,AUGUST 11,1997."

 

I'm sorry, this is what I'd call the kind of

misinformed criticism that *does* piss me off.

Cambodia and Vietnam were both Thereveda Buddhist

countries -- this notion that some vague threads

of Confucianism in Vietnamese culture were what

saved it from the evils that befell Cambodia

may make a nice little Time article, but is

way too flimsy to stand as a philosophical critique

of a religion.  And China was more Confician

than Vietnam -- how would he explain Mao's crimes

against humanity?  This just doesn't stand up,

it's just the kind of dull analytic blather

that keeps political pundits employed, in my

never-very-humble (but I'm trying) opinion.

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:50:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

I wondered when or if anyone would comment about this.  Glad to see it.

 

I did note in Burroughs letter that he talks about Buddhism and then

mentions reading Theosophy tracts.  I think this is an indication of maybe a

watered down or distorted understanding or view because I don't think the

Theospophical Society has much relation to Buddhism really.  But, that's

another argument.

 

But as well another but, I hoped to make the same point about Vietnam and

Cambodia in light of Mao and China.

 

I don't know how confucian Cambodia was/is compared to Vietnam but China

certainly was confucian.  Interestingly Mao hated confucius more than anything.

 

Also, I wouldn't take at face value that the Vietnamese communists only

re-educated their enemies.  And also remember that they didn't "win" until

1975.  If they'd have come to power a decade earlier things would be very

different as well.

 

My in-laws are heavy duty Buddhist and one of the things I've noticed is

their Buddhism seems to be very different from the sort of dry and

intellectual or philosophical type of Buddism that you hear most about in

the US.  It would be interesting to hear about these differences between

"real" (real in quotes in quotes) Buddhists and American's who practice

Buddhism.

 

At 03:57 PM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Slightly slow response on my part, but:

> 

>Rinaldo wrote:

>> "A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to

>> remove love from his being in order to avoid,

>> has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable

>> to castration."-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.

>> From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."

> 

>As somebody who calls himself a Buddhist, I'd like

>to say that Burroughs comments about the religion are

>at least very intelligent.  He grasps the essence

>of Buddhism, which is self-denial.  I like it

>when somebody comes up with a *good* reason not

>to be a Buddhist, and Burroughs' reasons are good.

> 

>Reminds me of when I first read Neitzsche's similar

>scorching of the Buddhist religion in "A Genealogy

>of Morals," when I was around 19 years old.  This

>led me to a crisis of faith that lasted a couple of

>years.  I respect Burroughs and Neitzsche for

>understanding what Buddhism is and choosing to

>position themselves against it.  That's better

>than flimsily paying lip service to it, or

>attacking it for misinformed reasons.

> 

>All I can really say in counterpoint is that we

>all come up with our ways of dealing with "the

>slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."  I've

>written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine

>skin" -- that was his defense mechanism.  Neitzsche

>never got a good defense mechanism going, maybe

>because he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but

>he lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible

>misery.  The Buddhist practice is just another

>way of surviving.  Ultimately I don't think

>there's anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes

>felt what Buddha felt when he said "All Life

>is Suffering."   And I also don't think there's

>any Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt

>that life was just peachy keen and a whole lot

>of fun.

> 

>As for this though:

>>         "When the Vietnamese communists

>>         took Saigon in 1975, they put their "class

>>         enemies" into re-education camps. In

>>         neighboring Cambodia, Pol Pot built exter-

>>         mination camps. Techears, doctors, people

>>         who could speak a foreing language, even

>>         people who wore glasses, were purged as

>>         he sought to reduce all of Cambodia to the

>>         level of the peasant class. The Vietnamese

>>         could be cruel captors, but their Confucian

>>         heritage left them open to educational re-

>>         form. In Cambodia, by contrast, Buddhism

>>         encouraged a belief in the ineluctability

>>         of karma and the idea that evil suffered

>>         is evil deserved. ''The idea of karma

>>         goes very deep in this society, and I

>>         think that was part of the mentality of

>>         the Khmer Rouge when they were massacring

>>         people,'' said Francois Ponvhaud, a priest

>>         who first went in Cambodia in 1965. '' They

>>         believed their victims had made errors,

>>         political errors, and that killing them

>>         would allow them to be reborn as better

>>         people in their next lives''. Pol Pot has

>>         admitted to some mistakes in the period

>>         from 1975 to 1979, but in his eyes they

>>         were mistakes of policy. About the million

>>         dead, he has never expressed any remorse."

>>         From "Terry McCarthy-- TIME,AUGUST 11,1997."

> 

>I'm sorry, this is what I'd call the kind of

>misinformed criticism that *does* piss me off.

>Cambodia and Vietnam were both Thereveda Buddhist

>countries -- this notion that some vague threads

>of Confucianism in Vietnamese culture were what

>saved it from the evils that befell Cambodia

>may make a nice little Time article, but is

>way too flimsy to stand as a philosophical critique

>of a religion.  And China was more Confician

>than Vietnam -- how would he explain Mao's crimes

>against humanity?  This just doesn't stand up,

>it's just the kind of dull analytic blather

>that keeps political pundits employed, in my

>never-very-humble (but I'm trying) opinion.

> 

>------------------------------------------------------

>| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

>|                                                    |

>|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

>|     (3 years old and still running)                |

>|                                                    |

>|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

>|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

>|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

>|                                                    |

>|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

>|                                                    |

>|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

>|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

>------------------------------------------------------

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:14:50 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Penn, Douglas, K" <dkpenn@OEES.COM>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Benway

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane writ:

 

<< 

>Burroughs seems to take us on a journey through the

>deconstruction, perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through

>horrific images but what does do his images actually evoke?  It seems

>that this line of discovery would be important since individual words and

>images are the only thing that hold together a work without any real

>characters or progression of events.

>> 

 

Well, let me steal some words from "Surrealists and Surrealism" (pg34)

to answer your question of what his images actually invoke:

 

<< 

A trite phrase or an illustration from a mail-order catalogue:  this

external element was essential, but as a starting point, not as an end

in itself.  A bulwark set up to stem the unwanted influx of the

conventional, the aesthetic, the bogus and the shallow, its function was

to get the self-imposed censor out of the way.  And because we come

smack up against that commonplace or that borrowed drawing (or

whatever), the cloud bursts and manna comes down.  The familiar, the

already seen, the already read, crumples up and reveals the never yet

seen, the never yet read.  But the operation would not come off if it

were merely a montage of external elements:  for those externals to be

seen through, they have to be shifted into the realm of mirages.  The

disconnected words will only cast their spell if borne aloft on the

breath of poetry.  The fixed planes of the collage are the unpredictable

episodes of a film whose inner impetus alone keeps the machinery turning

over.

 

We are as yet only in 1919, and these initial soundings of the depths

may be mistaken for the unsubsided effervescence of Dada, on which

Aragon commented: "Anyhow the world gets a good laugh out of their

antics."

>> 

 

Thus, if I'm translating correctly, his images [nouns] of junk, society,

and (please add here) (a) remove the censor, (2) reveal the unseen in

the seen, (3) and translate the commonplace into poetry, (4) reveal the

"fixed" planes of his cross topics, and (5) give a clue to the "inner

impetus" of "the machine".

 

But what his inner impetus is, or what the machine actually does,

well,...??

 

and then there's the idea that the medium is the message (Marshall

McCluhen).  That the collage technique that WSB uses is meant for a

specific purpose.  That besides the basic organization of the novel,

it's possible to use the resultant chaos to interpret words, characters,

scenarios in new ways.  New ways to write a novel, ways to live, to get

junk (in a non-physical way), and to escape death??

 

and lastly:  humour.

 

 

BUT:  the surrealists were always using "commonplace" items and

subverting them.  WSB and the associated images seem to be starting from

the opposite, with "highly charged" subculture items and working them

back to commonplace ideas.  I could be absolutely wrong here, but it's a

theory to work with at least.

 

- not just rebelling against the ordinary

- not just organizing and editing the surreal

- not just idealizing the possibilities

- but starting with the idea of a fucked up universe and working

backwords in a purifying manner to a universe which contains it's

[opposite]???

 

[[I'd really like to pass the painter Yves Tanguey thru WSB, but can't

find a book!!]]

 

and if I had WWW access, I'd give you a link to a Robert Williams or

S.Clay Wilson graphic.  Same ideas, me thinks.  I DON'T KNOW.  I should

spend more time building the engine than analyzing the race.  Going home

now...

 

>> DC

 

Douglas

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:19:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "P.A.Maher" <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Enlightments by Kerouac

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Coming soon:

 

     On The Kerouac Quarterly web page, paintings based on Kerouac's

"Enlghtments" in POMES ALL SIZES. . . .as they are completed..these oils

will be photographed, posted and auctioned off (with a set ceiling price of

$50.00) and minimum bid feom $5.00. If you like the paintings try for them,

if you thinkthey suck wellll. . .. .don't.

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page1.html

 

For an example of the kind of art they will look like go see "The Flood of

Dr.Sax" go to:

 

http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/page2.html

 

I want these paintings to be low-priced and accessible, not a ton of money.

Because art, like the magic muse that inspires them, should be free like air. .

 

1st Enlightment: When you become enlightened you will know that you've been

enlightened all along. (Jack Kerouac, page 66 POMES ALL SIZES). . .

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:06:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Benway (Sekhu Surface I)

In-Reply-To:  <33F85F30.E1E@together.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 7:41 AM -0700 8/18/97, Diane Carter wrote:

 

> Burroughs seems to take us on a journey through the

> deconstruction, perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through

> horrific images but what does do his images actually evoke?  It seems

> that this line of discovery would be important since individual words and

> images are the only thing that hold together a work without any real

> characters or progression of events.

> 

 

At 3:57 PM -0700 8/18/97, Levi Asher wrote:

 

All I can really say in counterpoint is that we

all come up with our ways of dealing with "the

slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."  I've

written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine

skin" -- that was his defense mechanism.  Neitzsche

never got a good defense mechanism going, maybe

because he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but

he lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible

misery.  The Buddhist practice is just another

way of surviving.  Ultimately I don't think

there's anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes

felt what Buddha felt when he said "All Life

is Suffering."   And I also don't think there's

any Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt

that life was just peachy keen and a whole lot

of fun.

 

> DC

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |               The map is

not the territory

                                |  { -  |                --Korzybski

        ---->                   |  /\   |

                                =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:32:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      (Sekhu Surface II)

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 7:41 AM -0700 8/18/97, Diane Carter wrote:

At 3:57 PM -0700 8/18/97, Levi Asher wrote:

 

 

is Suffering."   And I also don't think there's

any Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt

> that this line of discovery would be important since individual words and

way of surviving.  Ultimately I don't think

of fun.skin" -- that was his defense mechanism.  Neitzsche

he lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible

all come up with our ways of dealing with "the

> characters or progression of events.

> 

> images are the only thing that hold together a work without any real

never got a good defense mechanism going, maybe

 

> Burroughs seems to take us on a journey through the

 

> deconstruction, perhaps de-structuring of society/the world through

All I can really say in counterpoint is that we

> horrific images but what does do his images actually evoke?  It seems

slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."  I've

written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine

because he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but

misery.  The Buddhist practice is just another

there's anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes

felt what Buddha felt when he said "All Life

that life was just peachy keen and a whole lot

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:50:11 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject:      "it's all right ma, i'm only lurking

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970819003812.006870dc@pop.gpnet.it>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

in the midst of post  bashing and furious reading of many texts this past

month, i find myself uncharacteristcally silent. if i have sent this over

the list before, please fogive my lousy mailer and memory. just wanted to

say hello to all.

mc

 

on not writing

 

i have not been writing

i have been painting

i have not thought of words,

but rather of

colors, shapes,

        blending, edging,

worlds building on the page

is it sleep

is it dreaming

who is doing the painting?

landscapes of the mind

appear regularly as if

plucked out of thin air.

no memory

        beyond the intent to paint

dreams of eternal landscape

        building word less poems

not asleep

        nor waking.

mc

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 06:57:12 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> Is anyone ready to discuss books yet?

 

I just got OTR from the salina public library yesterday (is a public

library more communistic, socialistic, cooperative or what??? never

mind) . . .

SHOCKING.  They have a sticker on it as Young Adult Fiction.

Now part of me drew back in horror at the thought of them doing this to

a wonderful book

but a sinister and subversive side of me likes very much that this book

will be in the young adult section.  i may even begin to roam the

shelves of the fiction section and make other suggestions for Young

Adult classifications of REAL authors.

 

I have started Chapter One.

I guess it is sort of beating a dead mule but i'm asking myself about

JK's treatment of the character MaryLou.

The most troublesome thing to me is not that the character is described

as dumb and as a whore and whatnot.  The most troubling thing is that

the character is compleatly silent - voiceless.  Some woman - and

perhaps MaryLou will be one of them - are dumb and whores (just as many

men are).  But the dismissing of the first woman in a voiceless manner

is troublesome.

 

I am not dwelling on this though and will continue to plow forward.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:39:44 -0400

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@voicenet.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

HA!  This makes me remember back to when I was in eighth grade, and a

classmate did a book report on OTR.  This was back before I was into

Kerouac, so I didn't know much.  All I can remember from his report is:

"This book really isn't about anything.  It's just this dude driving across

the country."

Greg Elwell

elwellg@voicenet.com || elwellgr@hotmail.com

<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>

 

-----Original Message-----

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Tuesday, August 19, 1997 7:59 AM

Subject: Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

 

 

 

>Diane Carter wrote:

>> 

>> Is anyone ready to discuss books yet?

> 

>I just got OTR from the salina public library yesterday (is a public

>library more communistic, socialistic, cooperative or what??? never

>mind) . . .

>SHOCKING.  They have a sticker on it as Young Adult Fiction.

>Now part of me drew back in horror at the thought of them doing this to

>a wonderful book

>but a sinister and subversive side of me likes very much that this book

>will be in the young adult section.  i may even begin to roam the

>shelves of the fiction section and make other suggestions for Young

>Adult classifications of REAL authors.

> 

>I have started Chapter One.

>I guess it is sort of beating a dead mule but i'm asking myself about

>JK's treatment of the character MaryLou.

>The most troublesome thing to me is not that the character is described

>as dumb and as a whore and whatnot.  The most troubling thing is that

>the character is compleatly silent - voiceless.  Some woman - and

>perhaps MaryLou will be one of them - are dumb and whores (just as many

>men are).  But the dismissing of the first woman in a voiceless manner

>is troublesome.

> 

>I am not dwelling on this though and will continue to plow forward.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:05:11 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

In-Reply-To:  <199708182257.PAA12729@netcom18.netcom.com>

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hello all beat friends,

 

                        --**--

i was *alot* staggered by the TIME article (quoted in the

previous post), the Pol Pot *violence with charm*,

the only XXme siecle utopia realized (1975-1979)

& one million dead, (Pol Pot was in childhood educated to

become a buddhist monk, & was a gentle schoolboy),

 

                        --**--

the beat's acceptance of buddishm & the Jack Keroauc's tragic death.

JK shifts from the catholic religion to buddishm as better resource for

a safe life. But at the end JK undermined himself, i think,

& i maybe wrong, that Eastern Lands aren't the response anyway...

 

                        --**--

 

Levi Asher wrote:

[excuse me for snippin' for brevity]

>I've written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine

>skin" -- that was his defense mechanism.  Neitzsche

>never got a good defense mechanism going, maybe

>because he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but

>he lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible

>misery.

 

        The "porcupine skin" was an apologue written by

        Arthur Schopenhauer (Nietzsche's master of philosophy),

        the first western philosopher who studied & embraced

        the eastern thought (id est, ''Parerga e Paralipomena''),

        also Freud at last quoted the "porcupine" in his

        thougth 'bout "the discomfourt in the society". Both

        Schopenhauer & Nietzsche promoted having for

        themself darkness & pain. Perhaps giving unconscious thread to

        future nazi ideology... pain as a value in itself without

        any salvation.

 

>The Buddhist practice is just another

>way of surviving.  Ultimately I don't think

>there's anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes

>felt what Buddha felt when he said "All Life

>is Suffering."   And I also don't think there's

>any Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt

>that life was just peachy keen and a whole lot

>of fun.

 

        "Vistors to Cambodia have come away charmed by the lush

        beauty of the countryside and the smiling people.

        But the violent side and the Cambodian life can manifest

        itself without warning.

        ''Cambodian have this darkness, which is part of the

        shadow of their sweetness,'' says David Chandler, who has

        written a biography of Pol Pot and several histories of

        the country. ''Many of us who keep going there still hard

        to understand.'' Chandler observes that Pol Pot, with his

        gentle voice, never failed to charm those he met. He

        liked to quote French poetry. This was the same man who had

        his staff executed after his house in Phnom Penh had

        power failure."

 

 

>And China was more Confician

>than Vietnam -- how would he explain Mao's crimes

>against humanity?  This just doesn't stand up,

>it's just the kind of dull analytic blather

>that keeps political pundits employed, in my

>never-very-humble (but I'm trying) opinion.

> 

 

        "Ancient violence takes on new forms: the

        practice of setting fire to brides because of

        the inadequacy of their dowries is on increase,

        there is terrifying evidence that ritual child

        sacrifice is being practiced by some followers

        of the cult of goddess Kali, and communal violence

        erupts regularly" -- Salman Rushdie, 1997.

 

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:36:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> 

> Levi Asher wrote:

> [excuse me for snippin' for brevity]

> >I've written somewhere that Burroughs had "porcupine

> >skin" -- that was his defense mechanism.  Neitzsche

> >never got a good defense mechanism going, maybe

> >because he was schizophrenic, or maybe not, but

> >he lived the 2nd half of his life in horrible

> >misery.

> 

>         The "porcupine skin" was an apologue written by

>         Arthur Schopenhauer (Nietzsche's master of philosophy),

>         the first western philosopher who studied & embraced

>         the eastern thought (id est, ''Parerga e Paralipomena''),

>         also Freud at last quoted the "porcupine" in his

>         thougth 'bout "the discomfourt in the society". Both

>         Schopenhauer & Nietzsche promoted having for

>         themself darkness & pain. Perhaps giving unconscious thread to

>         future nazi ideology... pain as a value in itself without

>         any salvation.

 

i've had the feeling many times that WSB lived in many ways a form of

buddhist life without claiming it - or perhaps explicitly denying it -

and being willing to cut off the arm of youngsters who claimed this

connection.  at the risk of my arms i'm throwing this out.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:05:37 -0400

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Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddhism.

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Hi Levi--Good to have you back on the list (my own slow response, I know).

I agree with you that Burroughs's comments on Buddhism are intelligent

rather than purely misinformed.  I do think some questions of accuracy

remain, however:

 

>Slightly slow response on my part, but:

> 

>Rinaldo wrote:

>> "A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to

>> remove love from his being in order to avoid,

>> has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable

>> to castration."-- William S. Burroughs' letter to Jack Kerouac.

>> From "Letters of William S. Burroughs 1945-1959."

> 

>As somebody who calls himself a Buddhist, I'd like

>to say that Burroughs comments about the religion are

>at least very intelligent.  He grasps the essence

>of Buddhism, which is self-denial.

 

I've never had the impression that this "self-denial" is the "essence" of

Buddhism.  What seems denied in Buddhism is a belief in an essential,

unchanging self--a self independent of and unencumbered by historical and

material conditions.  Buddhism denies this kind of self, sure, as much as it

denies the opposite idea of selfhood:  a self so mutable and changeable that

it cannot account for (and be responsible for) the joys and pains it creates

in the mind.

 

Then there are ascetic forms of self-denial or self-aversion (the "world" is

"illusion" and "I" cannot have "pleasure"--and suddenly every means of

experiencing the world is framed by scare quotes), which is what I think

most folks think of (wrongly) when they consider Buddhist self-denial.  But

you countered this asceticism best in your closing words:

 

>Ultimately I don't think

>there's anybody in the world who hasn't sometimes

>felt what Buddha felt when he said "All Life

>is Suffering."   And I also don't think there's

>any Buddhist out there who hasn't sometimes felt

>that life was just peachy keen and a whole lot

>of fun.

 

What has always motivated me about Buddhism is the Madhyamika (sp?)

"middle-way" school, in which both self-cherishing *and* self-aversion are

considered dangerous extremes.  I find that too often in the West, we focus

on Dharma teachings about self-cherishing without adding that the Buddha

also cautioned against self-aversion.  The two, for me, seem inseparable.

 

>I like it

>when somebody comes up with a *good* reason not

>to be a Buddhist, and Burroughs' reasons are good.

 

I also like it when one finds *good* reasons not to be a Buddhist.  What I

like in the quotation Rinaldo posted was that Burroughs was not reading

against Buddhism so much as against how one *practices* Buddhism.  If the

core of many Buddhisms is non-violence and altruism--and I think it is--then

Burroughs is right on the mark, and is speaking against those who misuse

Buddhism when he says, "A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to

remove love from his being in order to avoid, has committed, in my mind, a

sacrilege comparable to castration."  The little I know of the many

Buddhisms in the contemporary world suggests to me that any person who uses

Buddhism to "remove love" from one's own being--rather than habituate

oneself to love--is indeed committing oneself to a form of self-aversion

that is a sacrilege.

 

So, what I see in the Burroughs quote, isn't so much a good reason not to be

a Buddhist, but a good caution against how a religious practice such as

Buddhism could be misused.

 

(Life *is* peachy today--my cat-skratch'd-infected thumb is healing [I can

hit the spacebar with hardly any pain], and a big old cup of coffee solved

the suffering of waking . . .)

 

Tony

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:54:41 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

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> RACE wrote:

> I have started Chapter One.

> I guess it is sort of beating a dead mule but i'm asking myself about

> JK's treatment of the character MaryLou.

> The most troublesome thing to me is not that the character is described

> as dumb and as a whore and whatnot.  The most troubling thing is that

> the character is compleatly silent - voiceless.  Some woman - and

> perhaps MaryLou will be one of them - are dumb and whores (just as many

> men are).  But the dismissing of the first woman in a voiceless manner

> is troublesome.

> 

> I am not dwelling on this though and will continue to plow forward.

 

I think I've read five Kerouac books in a row and unfortunately this is

the way he portrays all women, except for the one at the end of Big Sur,

who actually was given to philosophical dialogue.  I think in On the Road

this type of woman characterization is more prevelant too because he

spends most of his time trying to imitate Cody's relationship with women,

which in the across the country scenes is no more than random sex in

different cities.  I've decided the best way to get past Kerouac's

attitude toward women is to ignore it, believing that in great writing,

there is no male or female anyway, only the experience of what it means

to be human.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:52:24 -0400

Reply-To:     paw8670@mailer.fsu.edu

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Preston Whaley Jr." <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

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David Rhaesa,

 

Your post touches on my own problems with JK's mysogyny.  Visions of

Cody is particularly egregious.  Nevertheless, I still think VC is one

of the most forward looking works I've ever read.  I take the sexism and

its result -- inability to hear the woman's voice -- to be a confession,

driven by the artistic need to exorcise bigotry, i.e. blockages. Kerouac

acknowledged the problem of patriarchy somewhere.  He said bad gender

relations are man's fault.  I think it's in On the Road, but I can't

find it. If any one knows please share.

 

glad to be in the circle,

 

PW

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Aug 1997 23:09:07 -0700

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From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

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> Rinaldo Rasa wrote:                         --**--

> the beat's acceptance of buddishm & the Jack Keroauc's tragic death.

> JK shifts from the catholic religion to buddishm as better resource for

> a safe life. But at the end JK undermined himself, i think,

 

I don't think that JK's shift to Buddhism ever held up well, or got him

anywhere, it was only one more thing to try in his search for meaning.

Perhaps the new book will prove differently, I'm beginning more to think

that he found that there was no earthly use for any religion for none

could prevent death, He goes on and on about what is the point of life,

birth, or anything in view of the fact that we are all going to die.  It

seems also that the more he tried to get into Buddhism, peeling off

layers of self, the more he found self-hatred.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:14:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      Wino -- more darkness

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Hi.  Finally something I can (maybe) sink my teeth into?

 

Jack's LOVE of wine...

It's just one part of Jack's search for his truth.  Many of you who have

read VISIONS OF CODY and other of Jack's books will recall his disgust

towards the American dream and how he says that it robs people of their

instinct, how it makes them forget what true happiness is... Well, it's

my belief that Jack found the most beat characters he could find and

emulated them in hope of finding satori or whatever.  An aspect of this

was the wino.  Jack loved winos!  He really didn't have to be poor... he

could've gone along with the MEAT WHEEL but he didn't.  He intentionally

dressed like a bum, hung out with bums (in back alleys of redbrick

drinking WINE)... it's kind of a retarded version of Sidhartha (please

excuse my spelling) and his quest for enlightenment -- when he became

(crap! I forget what they're called!) one of those little indian guys who

sits by the river and doesn't eat and seeks enlightenment thru it and he

realizes that it's a whole bunch of bull to keep tortureing yourself and

eventually becomes the Buddha.  Well, this was Jack's road too, forcing

himself into the bottom of society... except that while Jack had his

enlightenment he was too addicted to the lifestyle to ever enjoy the

satori of the good life.

 

The Naked Lunch being like a movie comment was right on!  I've always

thought of that book as a sick movie/dream inside Bill's head... being

directed by little globs of heroin... it even literally becomes a movie

during the middle of the book.

 

Chris

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:17:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Chris Dumond <dumo13@EROLS.COM>

Subject:      one more thing...

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Sorry, I forgot to tack this onto my last post:

 

What is up with Jack Kerouac and the use of his word "redbrick"?  I mean,

in VOC he uses it maybe a million times!  It's also persvasive in his

poetry.

 

Chris

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:23:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

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From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Mysgogyny (was On the Road: Young adu....)

In-Reply-To:  <33F9B328.552E@mailer.acns.fsu.edu>

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On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Preston Whaley Jr. wrote:

 

> Your post touches on my own problems with JK's mysogyny.  Visions of

> Cody is particularly egregious.  Nevertheless, I still think VC is one

> of the most forward looking works I've ever read.  I take the sexism and

> its result -- inability to hear the woman's voice -- to be a confession,

> driven by the artistic need to exorcise bigotry, i.e. blockages.

 

The sexist attitudes of many of the beats is a real stumbling block for me

when it comes to talking about and teaching the beats.  One of my friends

gave up completely on the beats because of this after reading Dharma Bums

and Tristessa.  Trying to get people to look past that is sometimes like

trying to knock down a brick wall with your head.  And its hard to

contradict those attitudes when you only have a handful of really

productive women whose work you can showcase.  Even then most of them came

later on.  In the beginning it was Jack and Neal and  the boys and that's

about it except for the girlfriends who rarely lasted that long.

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:36:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject:      Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

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Answer to Quiz #2:

 

Slim's son-in-law was Marvin Gaye, one of the crown princes of soul music.

He had Slim Gaillard sit in on the album "Midnight Love"; he added

hand-clapping!?!

 

Anybody know if Kerouac - Cassady were into doowop, Rhythm 'n blues or soul?

 

Antoine

 

        **********

>About the Slim Gaillard trivia question posed by Antoine Maloney,

> 

>I don't know.

> 

>That's why I didn't hazard a guess.

> 

>As I remember it was who is Slim famous musician son-in-law.

> 

>OK, times up I give and it seems like no one else is going to pose an answer

>so...

> 

>OK,  who?

> 

 Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

 

     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 08:50:40 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

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>Answer to Quiz #2:

> 

>Slim's son-in-law was Marvin Gaye,

 

Wow!  That's big time.

 

 

 

>one of the crown princes of soul music.

>He had Slim Gaillard sit in on the album "Midnight Love"; he added

>hand-clapping!?!

> 

>Anybody know if Kerouac - Cassady were into doowop, Rhythm 'n blues or soul?

> 

>Antoine

> 

>        **********

>>About the Slim Gaillard trivia question posed by Antoine Maloney,

>> 

>>I don't know.

>> 

>>That's why I didn't hazard a guess.

>> 

>>As I remember it was who is Slim famous musician son-in-law.

>> 

>>OK, times up I give and it seems like no one else is going to pose an answer

>>so...

>> 

>>OK,  who?

>> 

> Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>     "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

>                        -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:33:57 +-200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Arno Neele <arnoniem@TIP.NL>

Subject:      AW: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

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"The truth of the matter is we don't understand our women; we blame on them and

 it's all our fault." (OTR, page 122)

 

 

Maybe this is what you were looking for.

arno

----------

Van:    Preston Whaley Jr.[SMTP:paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU]

Verzonden:      dinsdag 19 augustus 1997 16:52

Aan:    BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Onderwerp:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

 

David Rhaesa,

 

Your post touches on my own problems with JK's mysogyny.  Visions of

Cody is particularly egregious.  Nevertheless, I still think VC is one

of the most forward looking works I've ever read.  I take the sexism and

its result -- inability to hear the woman's voice -- to be a confession,

driven by the artistic need to exorcise bigotry, i.e. blockages. Kerouac

acknowledged the problem of patriarchy somewhere.  He said bad gender

relations are man's fault.  I think it's in On the Road, but I can't

find it. If any one knows please share.

 

glad to be in the circle,

 

PW

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:09:12 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: The Darkness of Buddishm.

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My in-laws are heavy duty Buddhist and one of the things I've noticed is

their Buddhism seems to be very different from the sort of dry and

intellectual or philosophical type of Buddism that you hear most about in

the US.  It would be interesting to hear about these differences between

"real" (real in quotes in quotes) Buddhists and American's who practice

Buddhism.

 

     There are many schools of Buddhism.  The theology heavy schools of

     Tibetan, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. are very different than the Zen

     Schools of China and Japan, as different as Catholicism and the

     "lighter" shades of Protestantism.

 

     matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:54:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Dawn B. Sova" <DawnDR@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

 

David R. noted that the public library has OTR classified as "Young Adult

Fiction."  I had to comment --- and hold onto your hat when you hear this.

 

Just completed for reference publisher Facts on File, Inc., two volumes of a

four-volume set on censorship --- my two volumes were books that have been

censored/banned/challenged for "Social" content and for "Erotic" content

(summaries/case histories, etc.).  Couldn't find my copy of NAKED LUNCH, so I

ordered a copy through interlibrary loan from another public library in the

county system here in  New Jersey.  NAKED LUNCH is  classed as "YA" in at

least 5 of those libraries!!!  (Of course, many others have "lost" it.)  Know

something??  I laughed, and felt very subversive as I said NOTHING!

 

I'd be curious if other Beat books are similarly classified.  What a

wonderful way to let the system open minds.

 

Dawn

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:45:32 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

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----------

 

Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

i've had the feeling many times that WSB lived in many ways a form of

buddhist life without claiming it - or perhaps explicitly denying it -

and being willing to cut off the arm of youngsters who claimed this

connection.  at the risk of my arms i'm throwing this out.

 

David

 

Am I too literal here? Not literary enough?  David, I can hardly believe it? You

 mean it?

 

leon

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 13:04:25 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Hipster Beat Poet." <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>

Subject:      Third Mind anyone?

In-Reply-To:  <970819125241_655415373@emout12.mail.aol.com>

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According to a recent book pricing publication, "The Third Mind" is worth

about $45.00. From what i understand this book is no longer in print. I

have only been able to take out a copy at the local library here in NJ

but recently it has vanished. Is there any way of obtaining a copy for

sale? It is one of the major books missing in my collection, along with

"Tornado Alley."

                                        thanks,

                                                jason

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:08:24 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

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----------

From:   RACE ---[SMTP:race@MIDUSA.NET]

Sent:   Tuesday, August 19, 1997 6:36 AM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

 

I'll get it right this time=20

 

David Rhaesa wrote:

=09

        Amorphous regions overlaying the literally with the literary are =

getting         fuzzy here for me. Cutup confusing Rasa with Rinaldo -- =

Apologies       Rinaldo and Rasa for my last goof with attribution. In other =

words just      getting confused here a might.=20

 

Hey David, you still got your arm, right? Sticks and stones will break =

your bones but words will never hurt you. Yeah, right?

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

> 

.-

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:34:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Leon Tabory wrote:

> 

> ----------

> From:   RACE ---[SMTP:race@MIDUSA.NET]

> Sent:   Tuesday, August 19, 1997 6:36 AM

> To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

> Subject:        Re: The Darkness of Buddishm.

> 

> I'll get it right this time

> 

> David Rhaesa wrote:

> 

>         Amorphous regions overlaying the literally with the literary are

 getting         fuzzy here for me. Cutup confusing Rasa with Rinaldo --

 Apologies       Rinaldo and Rasa for my last goof with attribution. In other

 words just      getting confused here a might.

> 

> Hey David, you still got your arm, right? Sticks and stones will break your

 bones but words will never hurt you. Yeah, right?

> 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

> >

> .-

 

arm is fine.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:43:13 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Third Mind anyone?

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Really???

 

I remember back in 80 - 82 this book was available in scads at $3 or so for

the hardback.  Moe's in berkely and Logos in Santa Cruz had bunches of them.

 

I may even have had bought a copy.  Don't know where it is today.

 

My how times change.

 

At 01:04 PM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote:

>According to a recent book pricing publication, "The Third Mind" is worth

>about $45.00. From what i understand this book is no longer in print. I

>have only been able to take out a copy at the local library here in NJ

>but recently it has vanished. Is there any way of obtaining a copy for

>sale? It is one of the major books missing in my collection, along with

>"Tornado Alley."

>                                        thanks,

>                                                jason

> 

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:10:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Third Mind anyone?

 

Jason et al:

 

Regarding the Burroughs/Gysin collaboration, The Third Mind," if you can find

a nice copy for $45.00, grab it. The price guide has underestimated the vaue

of this gem from 1978. Viking (Penguin) should definitely bring it back into

print.

 

As far as Tornado Alley by Burroughs goes (illustrated by S. Clay Wilson),

we've got plenty of copies on hand in two editions:

1. paperback: $11.95

2. Hardcover: $20.00

shipping is $2.00.

 

I've got a Third Mind first edition hardcover in dust jacket signed by both

Burroughs and Gysin in near mint condition - If interested, drop me a line

here at Water Row -

 

Jeffrey

Water Row Books

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:31:31 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Re: Books by Jan Kerouac

In-Reply-To:  <970819150914_1883943480@emout03.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Jeffrey

 

I have two of Jan's books on hold somewhere. I got side-tracked and do not

have the phone number to call. A hard cover in mint condition of either

Baby Driver or Train and a soft cover of the same book.

 

Do you know who it was that had notices of collectors stuff--Beat Stuff--on

teh List a few weeks ago? Was it you?

 

Thanks,

 

j grant

 

 

 

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

    http://www.bookzen.com/addbook-form.html

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 07:37:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Benway

Comments: cc: SSASN@AOL.COM, dkpenn@oees.com

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> Penn, Douglas, K. wrote:

> BUT:  the surrealists were always using "commonplace" items and

> subverting them.  WSB and the associated images seem to be starting

> from

> the opposite, with "highly charged" subculture items and working them

> back to commonplace ideas.  I could be absolutely wrong here, but it's

> a

> theory to work with at least.

> 

> - not just rebelling against the ordinary

> - not just organizing and editing the surreal

> - not just idealizing the possibilities

> - but starting with the idea of a fucked up universe and working

> backwords in a purifying manner to a universe which contains it's

> [opposite]???

 

I'm not sure agree that he's working backward to commonplace ideas or in

a purifying manner, although the act of writing is surely a release of

some kind.  I think the whole universe of Naked Lunch (as far as I've

read so far) is based on the premise everyone needs something and their

place in the universe is defined by what they need at what level.  No one

gets what they need or want.  I'm not sure they even know what that is.

I'm also not sure that his violent, dark images are surreal or that these

images are meant to come from an unconscious level.  The narrator's

reality is perverted and dark, fucked up, if you will, but his reality is

"out there" as they way things are, the way society is.  This is not a

dream from which he is trying to awake but a script written by his

conscious mind.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:27:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         John J Dorfner <Kirouack@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs and musical influences

 

i enjoyed this stuff diane...thanks for sharing it.  i'm going through my

files from beat-l and deleting stuff.  maybe i'll catch ya later.

 

john

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:31:01 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Praetor77@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

 

Tired, tired, tired of the whole women question. Similar to the race card

that is played now and then. I was asked in my PhD candidacy oral defense

about the portrayal of Mexicans in Road. The young Mexican-American professor

questioning me went on at some length about "Kerouac's" assertion that

Mexicans do not care about appearances. The prof explained the inaccuracy,

described just how much Mexican culture is based on appearances, how white

American imperialist it was to impose readings on another culture, and the

"R" word came up of course. How could I defend an author who wrote such

things?

 

Weellll, whether Kerouac was an "R" or not, I don't know and don't care. But

I asked, did the professor really expect a young white guy circa 1950 like

Sal Paradise to really have the PC race/gender/orientation ideology of a 90's

liberal college professor? If he did, I would find the chararcter pretty

unreal and poorly written. Kinda like "Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman" where we go

back into the Old West with all our PC assumptions. Cute and cuddly, but real

it ain't.

 

So are you "troubled" by Kerouac's treatment of women and blacks in his

writing? Don't be troubled (a typical weak university term, like

"problematic")--be terrified. Don't suspect that his attitudes weren't PC.

They weren't even close. And don't think that you might be able to find

something that will redeem him. You won't and who cares?

 

Kerouac the man had every right to his opinions and to put them into his

writing. English Departments seem to aspire to be amateur sociologists,

psychologists, or political editorialists. They call into question every

philosophical assumption except their own political correctness. Personally,

this is not the path for me. Whether Kerouac's view on race, gender, or ice

hockey conform to my own or not, I am still moved by his artistic brillance

and will not say he is a bad writer because he doesn't agree with me.

 

And I will not write off his complex themes with one word answers like racist

or sexist. Let's go deeper than that. When someone says his portrayal of

Mexicans is racist, I answer, "And....?" What does that mean? Where does it

go? These days EVERYONE can be smeared with those kinds of words. So those

who use them be warned: they've lost their power. With Kerouac, I want to

know more deeply the particulars and motivations and symbolic resonances of

the writing. One word write-offs don't make that.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 20:48:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Mitchell Smith wrote:

> 

> And I will not write off his complex themes with one word answers like racist

 or sexist. Let's go deeper than that. When someone says his portrayal of

 Mexicans is racist, I answer, "And....?" What does that mean? Where does it go?

 These days EVERYONE can be smeared with those kinds of words. So those who use

 them be warned: they've lost their power. With Kerouac, I want to know more

 deeply the particulars and motivations and symbolic resonances of the writing.

 One word write-offs don't make that.

 

Perhaps i was misunderstood.  I'm about as politically correct as the

pope.  I was not saying this makes JK evil.  I wasn't suggesting that

one not read him or suggest him or praise his abilities.  It does seem

that he continually is unable to provide female characters with nearly

the same depth as the rest of his writing.  Perhaps this is due to the

experiences he had.

 

I'm sorry that you received such harrassment from the Race angle on your

committee but please don't turn around and play the same game by

accusing me of playing "a card" when that is not what i said at all.

 

respectfully,

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:49:24 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         runner <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject:      build an engine

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

am trying to build an engine that will take

beat lit theory to

art history methodology

to artistic product

 

wish me luck and thanx to all on this list for

all their ideas, info, and whatnot

 

<<unsubscribe>>

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |               The map is

not the territory

                                |  { -  |                --Korzybski

        ---->                   |  /\   |

                                =========

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:19:41 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      how did you meet the beats.

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Charles,

         How and when did you meet Allen or William?  As much as I sympathise

with the ernest academics about this being a place dedicated to

discussion of literature, to me the literature comes untidily wrapped in

the social life and community that the literature evolved from. I am

interested in the travel and points of contact people had.

Patricia

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:31:47 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>

Subject:      Re: build an engine

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I do wish you luck. I will miss your creative  piercing contributions. Please

 keep in touch and let us know what you are coming up with

 

Bon Chance

 

leon

 

----------

From:   runner[SMTP:babu@ELECTRICITI.COM]

Sent:   Tuesday, August 19, 1997 6:49 PM

To:     BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

Subject:        build an engine

 

am trying to build an engine that will take

beat lit theory to

art history methodology

to artistic product

 

wish me luck and thanx to all on this list for

all their ideas, info, and whatnot

 

<<unsubscribe>>

 

Douglas

 

 

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/        |   0   |               The map is

not the territory

                                |  { -  |                --Korzybski

        ---->                   |  /\   |

                                =========

.-

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:59:28 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: The Darkness of Buddhism.

In-Reply-To:  <199708191405.KAA05111@lynx.dac.neu.edu> from "Tony Trigilio" at

              Aug 19, 97 10:05:37 am

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I wrote:

> >As somebody who calls himself a Buddhist, I'd like

> >to say that Burroughs comments about the religion are

> >at least very intelligent.  He grasps the essence

> >of Buddhism, which is self-denial.

 

Tony wrote:

> I've never had the impression that this "self-denial" is the "essence" of

> Buddhism.  What seems denied in Buddhism is a belief in an essential,

> unchanging self--a self independent of and unencumbered by historical and

> material conditions.  Buddhism denies this kind of self, sure, as much as it

> denies the opposite idea of selfhood:  a self so mutable and changeable that

> it cannot account for (and be responsible for) the joys and pains it creates

> in the mind.

 

and also:

 

> Burroughs is right on the mark, and is speaking against those who misuse

> Buddhism when he says, "A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to

> remove love from his being in order to avoid, has committed, in my mind, a

> sacrilege comparable to castration."  The little I know of the many

> Buddhisms in the contemporary world suggests to me that any person who uses

> Buddhism to "remove love" from one's own being--rather than habituate

> oneself to love--is indeed committing oneself to a form of self-aversion

> that is a sacrilege.

 

I think you're right, and I guess I'm being overly

extreme to say that self-denial is the essence of

Buddhism.

 

It's important to realize, as you said, that Buddha

did not teach extreme asceticism (self-denial) but

rather pointed towards a "middle way" between

the two opposite traps, self-denial and self-indulgence.

 

But I think it's the self-denial aspect of Buddhism

that people think more about, mainly because humans

tend to be naturally self-indulgent, so reaching

the "middle way" is usually acheived only with

strong doses of renunciation.  Very few people

are so naturally unselfish that they have to reach

the middle way by becoming *more* selfish.

Nice thought, though.

 

About the difference between American Buddhists

and actual Asian Buddhists, I agree that they

are worlds apart.  I remember when my wife and

I, looking for some enlightenment on a hot summer

day in Queens, wandered into a Korean Buddhist

temple in Corona.  They stared at us like we

were insane.  Looked kinda fun in there, though,

wish they could have let us stay ...

 

------------------------------------------------------

| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com                   |

|                                                    |

|    Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |

|     (3 years old and still running)                |

|                                                    |

|        "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web"        |

|          (a real book, like on paper)              |

|             also at http://coffeehousebook.com     |

|                                                    |

|                *--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*  |

|                                                    |

|                  "It was my dream that screwed up" |

|                                    -- Jack Kerouac |

------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:57:19 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Kyle Mays <kmays@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Subscribe help

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I was wondering if anyone can help me subscribe to the Beat-l.  Thanks for

any help.

 

Kyle Mays

kmays@voicenet.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:47:09 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

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Mitchell,

 

Thanks for you post which is excellent.  It is entirely bogus to expect

the Beats to be PC.  In my comments on JK and women I really wasn't

meaning to suggest that.  It is more my contention that JK wrote very

poor women characters.  I personally don't care whether he was sexist of

not.  His problem rather than mine.  A more relevant issue is whether

his inability to see women in any sort of totality limited him as a

writer.  Sort of a problem for a novelist and, if we were to follow

Leslie Fiedler, an endemic problem for American novelists at least.  But

I can think of a lot of American writers who wrote far more realized

women than Jack could. Henry James and Scott Fitzgerald come to mind.

Jack writes wonderfully about alot of things.  But women aren't one.  I

am inclined to agree that the painful relationship with Billie, which is

no fun at all to read, may be the only time he got it very real.

 

But thanks for your refreshingly non-PC point of view. And thanks for

reminding me why I shouldn't miss the world of English departments.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:02:37 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      710 Ashbury and other treasures

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Beat-L folks with lots of money and a Deadhead orientation may want to

know that they have the chance of a lifetime to buy the Dead house at

710 Ashbury.  Just bring your prequalified loan to bid over the 900,000

minimum bid and you're in the game.  Butterfield and Butterfield is

doing a "Summer of Love" auction in which the house is the featured

attraction, other items include the original contract for the Charlatans

to play at the Red Dog Saloon.  I will send off for the catalog to see

if there is anything literary included.

 

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:33:47 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>

Subject:      Jan Keroauc First Editions

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Can someone help me with this?

 

I reserved a couple of First Editions of Jan Keroauc's and before I had a

chance to call back with credit card info I misplaced name of the book

dealer.

 

At the same time my computer ate some files.

 

The information came to me via the Beat List.  If the book dealer sees this

please contact me so Ican get the $ to you.

 

Thanks,

 

j grant

 

Small Press Authors and Publishers display books

                FREE

    http://www.bookzen.com/addbook-form.html

        375,913 visitors - 07-01-96 to 07-01-97

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:12:17 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         PATRICK <EASTWIND@EROLS.COM>

Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING

Subject:      Re: Slim Gaillard and Jack...and the hipsters

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Antoine Maloney wrote:

> 

> Answer to Quiz #2:

> 

> Slim's son-in-law was Marvin Gaye, one of the crown princes of soul music.

> He had Slim Gaillard sit in on the album "Midnight Love"; he added

> hand-clapping!?!

> 

> Anybody know if Kerouac - Cassady were into doowop, Rhythm 'n blues or soul?

> 

> Antoine

> 

>         **********

> >About the Slim Gaillard trivia question posed by Antoine Maloney,

> >

> >I don't know.

> >

> >That's why I didn't hazard a guess.

> >

> >As I remember it was who is Slim famous musician son-in-law.

> >

> >OK, times up I give and it seems like no one else is going to pose an answer

> >so...

> >

> >OK,  who?

> >

>  Voice contact at  (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> 

>      "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

>                         -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

 

 

I never met kerouac, but I met Ginsberg, Corso in Paris at the Beat

Hotel in the late 50s'- and can tell you with assuarnce that the music

of the beats was American Jazz---Coltrane, Bud Powell and the early Chet

Baker when he was just starting in Calif.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:19:42 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         PATRICK <EASTWIND@EROLS.COM>

Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING

Subject:      Re: Cross posting from RMD

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> 

> >From time to time, I check out the Dylan news group.  I used to post

> there a lot till I found the beat-l and found it to be more fun, and

> less spam.  (Wonderful spam!).  There has been raging a fierce war

> between the condemn Burroughs to hell and the Burroughs just told the

> truth folks.  I have found several posts that are quite good in the

> defense of Burroughs.  The ones that lead into them are quite bad but

> have been repeated in the follow up posts.  I sent two that I thought

> were particularly good to P and she said that they good food for

> thought.  I am going to post those two to the list, because I think they

> contain good summaries of the merits of WSB's work.

> 

> The posts are not intended to draw comments, and we certainly do not

> need to discuss the drivel that lead to these posts.  But, I think it is

> helpful to the list to gain a perspective of how some who are not on the

> list perceive and defend WSB.  If anyone wants to comment, feel free.

> But these two posts are cross posts and will be labeled as such.  I do

> not intend to comment on them, just cross post.

> 

> If you care to see the full exchanges, point your news reader at:

> 

> rec.music.dylan

> 

> Then check out the burroughs rot in hell thread, or something like that.

> 

> Peace,

> Thanks.

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> 

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

Doesanyone have any information on the Beats in Paris,France at the Beat

Hotel?--that is, articles etc.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:24:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re[2]: The Darkness of Buddhism.

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>"A man who uses Buddhism or any other instrument to remove love from his

being in order to avoid, has committed, in my mind, a sacrilege comparable

to castration."

 

The word "uses", I think, is the key here.  I don't think he's suggesting

that *Buddhism* removes love but that someone can mis-use the tenets of

Buddhism to say "I don't/can't/won't love because that's 'attachment'".

 

     Do I have a firm grasp of the obvious or what?

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:18:13 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Jan Keroauc First Editions

In-Reply-To:  <v03007801b020a1b737ad@[156.46.45.72]>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, jo grant wrote:

 

> Can someone help me with this?

> 

> I reserved a couple of First Editions of Jan Keroauc's and before I had a

> chance to call back with credit card info I misplaced name of the book

> dealer.

> 

 

Call the rare book dept at the Strand in NYC...last time I was there (a

couple of months ago admittedly), they had a Jan Kerouac first edition,

as well as a first ed. of the paperback of Desolate Angels.  If they dont

have those anymore, the folks there would probably be able to figure out

your dealer'sname, provided you give enough clues, since they deal with

most any of them in the area.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:14:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: drunkenness

 

Reply to message from jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM of Mon, 18 Aug

> 

>Whiskey is expensive. Whiskey alcoholics have more money. By the time the

>alcoholic gets to wine he/she is usually close to the bottom of the

>economic ladder.

> 

>j grant

 

This past March when I was writing my "senior seminar" paper on the Beats

(how I first found this list...) I decided that, as research, I had to get

a bottle of Thunderbird.  It was research, pure research, I kept telling

my friends who rolled their eyes.  So, at the state liquor store in

Aurora, Ohio, I asked the kind clerk if they had any in stock.  He laughed

and said no, but "This stuff is the next best thing," and pointed to a

bottle of Wild Irish Rose.  So I grabbed a bottle while the clerk continued

laughing and asked, "Is this a gag gift?" "Um, no, it's research," I replied.

 

Well, about a week later I found the real deal in the 24-hour Giant Eagle

in Ravenna.  Granted, the greenish tint that I was never quite sure if it

belonged solely to the bottle or the liquor caught me off guard.  But let's

just say that if you've only got $5 to spend on liquor, the stuff will do

the job.  So then my professor found out about my research & shook his

head, remarking, "They still sell that stuff?  My roommate back in college

drank an entire bottle of that one night, and later on he was puking green

bile..."

 

So maybe it all has to do with desperation....

 

Diane.

 

--

                Diane M. Homza <---Professional Rebound Girl!

2 Years Experience; References Are Avaliable!   ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

"I can't imagine how I ever thought my love might make a difference to him."

                --Richard Powers, _The Gold Bug Variations_

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:33:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      On the Road: Chad King

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Does anyone have a character list that identifies Chad King who is in the

first part of On the Road?  Also, when he gets to Denver, Sal stays with

a group of friends who seem to be on the outs with Cody and Irwin, does

anyone know the social particulars of the time and whether it was just a

personality conflict or did it have to do with views of literature, as

one of the guys Sal stays with seems to want to write like Hemingway.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:38:52 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

 

Mitchell Smith wrote "Tired, tired,tired..."

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you....

 

Dixon

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:07:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Ron Guest <rguest@SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject:      Bay Area/Beat-L Group

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        I remember reading post about a Beat-l group trying to get together

in the Bay         area.  Did it happen?  Any interesting news, ideas or

topics for discussion come        out of that?

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:05:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sara Brosnan <coffee@MAIL.WDN.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapt

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--------------19CC5EE50031385F5C96532E

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> SHOCKING.  They have a sticker on it as Young Adult Fiction.

> Now part of me drew back in horror at the thought of them doing this

> to

> a wonderful book

> but a sinister and subversive side of me likes very much that this

> book

> will be in the young adult section.  i may even begin to roam the

> shelves of the fiction section and make other suggestions for Young

> Adult classifications of REAL authors.

> 

 

This is my first post to this list.  I'm 15 and going into my sophmore

year of highschool.  OTR was on are recomended summer reading list and I

just finished reading it.  I've read Howl and a bunch of other  Ginsberg

poems along with some of Jack Kerouac's.  I also read and loved a book

which was a collection of stuff from Woman Beats. As part of my

Humanities class next year we are going to be reading some Beat stuff I

think.  Which I think is incredibly cool.    I'm looking forward to

hearing everyone's insights on Beat literature, and adding some of my

own.

 

Sara

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by maddness, starving,

hysterical, naked."

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1988

 

 

 

--------------19CC5EE50031385F5C96532E

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<HTML>

 

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>SHOCKING.&nbsp; They have a sticker on it as Young

Adult Fiction.

<BR>Now part of me drew back in horror at the thought of them doing this

to

<BR>a wonderful book

<BR>but a sinister and subversive side of me likes very much that this

book

<BR>will be in the young adult section.&nbsp; i may even begin to roam

the

<BR>shelves of the fiction section and make other suggestions for Young

<BR>Adult classifications of REAL authors.

<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>

This is my first post to this list.&nbsp; I'm 15 and going into my sophmore

year of highschool.&nbsp; OTR was on are recomended summer reading list

and I just finished reading it.&nbsp; I've read Howl and a bunch of other&nbsp;

Ginsberg poems along with some of Jack Kerouac's.&nbsp; I also read and

loved a book which was a collection of stuff from Woman Beats. As part

of my Humanities class next year we are going to be reading some Beat stuff

I think.&nbsp; Which I think is incredibly cool.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm

looking forward to hearing everyone's insights on Beat literature, and

adding some of my own.

 

<P>Sara

<BR>"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by maddness, starving,

hysterical, naked."

<BR><A

 HREF="htttp://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/1988">http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/

 Lofts/1988</A>

<BR>&nbsp;

<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

 

--------------19CC5EE50031385F5C96532E--

 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:04:16 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mitchell Smith <Praetor77@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Ron W and White Fields Press

 

Does anyone know what has become of Ron Whitehead and why White Fields Press

went out of business? They had such an amazing line of publications, I can't

see why they gave up. The difficulties of being a small press I guess.

 

M Smith

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:18:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MATT HANNAN <MATT.HANNAN@USOC.ORG>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Chad King

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     Hal Chase and Ed White (Chad King and Tim Gray in On the Road) were

     roommates and sometime college students in Denver.  Who Kerouac stayed

     with when he first arrived in Denver.

 

     Ann Charters wrote in Kerouac - A Biography:

 

     "Jack described the mood as "some kind of conspiracy," even "a war

     with social overtones," because Neal was the son of a wino bum and

     Chase and White were college students from respectable homes.

 

     But Chase and his friends didn't stress the social differences when

     they objected to Cassady.  They told Jack they thought Neal was "a

     moron and a fool" for rushing around Denver making love to any willing

     girl:........"

 

     love and lilies,

 

     matt

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: On the Road: Chad King

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet

Date:    8/19/97 11:33 PM

 

 

Does anyone have a character list that identifies Chad King who is in the

first part of On the Road?  Also, when he gets to Denver, Sal stays with

a group of friends who seem to be on the outs with Cody and Irwin, does

anyone know the social particulars of the time and whether it was just a

personality conflict or did it have to do with views of literature, as

one of the guys Sal stays with seems to want to write like Hemingway.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:47:59 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Ron W and White Fields Press

In-Reply-To:  <970820140206_1359674217@emout11.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

m.smith

as far as i know they havent gone out of business - at least not as much

as ron has mentioned to me ( and you would think in his wild enthusiastci

nightmares of posts that ramble & update in a fury/flurry of wrds he would

have said something) i know that he is still planning some publishe in

heaven posters, organizing a reading for oct 9 in lousiville, KY, heading

to europe for readings, etc sept.10, working on research for new book on

l.ferlinghetti and working on new poetry as well as recently submitted

manuscript for final editing of _william s. burroughs: calling the toads_

so i dont think that whitefields press has bit the bucket yet.

have you heard otherwise?

yrs

derek

 

On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, Mitchell Smith wrote:

 

> 

> Does anyone know what has become of Ron Whitehead and why White Fields Press

> went out of business? They had such an amazing line of publications, I can't

> see why they gave up. The difficulties of being a small press I guess.

> 

> M Smith

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:37:18 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Lowell Celebrates Kerouac 1997

 

I was wondering if anyone else was planning on going to Lowell in October.  May

be we can wear our Beat-l shirts and meet for drinks in the Worthen pub or some

thing.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 15:34:21 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      OTR -- chapter 1 still

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I'm moving along at a snail's pace.  my apologies to the quick readers.

 

"The whole mad swirl of everything that was to come began then; it would

mix up all my friends and all I had left of my family in a big dust

cloud over the American Night." (p.8)

 

This sentence just hit me hard.  I'd turned the page and there it was at

the top of the next . . . bam! . . . It seems to say so much of the tale

(as i recall from reading it long ago).

 

I guess it also says something about some decent ways of reading OTR.

It seems an easy way to fall amidst the whirlwind and madness and let

the story take you along.  I have done this when i read it before.

Another is to be more of a twister watcher (albeit not a member of the

p.c. police) and observe the whirl of mad connections from a safer and

saner distance.

 

This time around i will follow the second path - the first is far too

likely to land me in a hospital.

 

This quotation as i said hit me hard in the middle of some synapse and

seems to say so much -- not just about chapter one -- but far far far

into the narrative.

 

"And this was really the way that my whole road experience began, and

the things that were to come are too fantastic not to tell." (p.9)

 

JK slides so smoothly out of the narrative and into the role of

storyteller...the author sliding into the story a bit.  i've always

liked this quality.  And the notion of "TOO FANTASTIC" along with the

"WHOLE MAD SWIRL" begin to create something in my brain which i missed

by falling too far into the book the last time i read it.

 

"Somewhere along the line I knew there'd be girls, visions, everything:

somewhere along the line the pearl would be handed to me." (p.11)

 

I wonder if the pearl was ever handed off.  To JK, to us???  The

fantastic tale is certainly in store and it provides everything - but

perhaps not the pearl.

 

I'll lag along slowly pearl hunting.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:11:30 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%1997082015402243@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Bill Gargan" at

              Aug 20, 97 03:37:18 pm

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=>I'll definitely be going to Lowell in Oct.,and hope to meet

assorted Beat-L-sters.

 

> I was wondering if anyone else was planning on going to Lowell in October.

 May

> be we can wear our Beat-l shirts and meet for drinks in the Worthen pub or

 some

> thing.

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:11:42 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject:      Wittgenstein's dream (Re: Was Burroughs really a beat writer?)

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSI.3.95.970813195003.25110D-100000@global.california .com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Michael et al. friends,

 

Ludwig Wittgenstein (1889-1951) was indeed a very tormented soul:

 

Ludwig every nite dreamed of cold & deep place into himself own

mind, lifting up a handkerchief & scared of worms &

creeping slimy beeings found there.

 

saluti,

Rinaldo.

 

 

At 20.04 13/08/97 -0700,

"Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM> wrote:

>  "Wittgenstein said that if the universe is pre-recorded, the only thing

>   not pre-recorded is those recordings themselves. In my work,

>   the cut-ups and all, I attempt to get at the substance of the

>   recordings."

>                                - William S. Burroughs

>                                  (quoted from memory)

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:22:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Naked Lunch: Chapter 1, up to Benway

In-Reply-To:  <33F6CC50.10CB@midusa.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Sun, 17 Aug 1997, RACE --- wrote:

 

> runner wrote:

> >   Mixed this all up with my working

> > WSB ideas of the "big lie."

> >

> > http://www.electriciti.com/babu/images/Big_lie.html

> >

> > Douglas

> >

> > http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

> 

> I'm not certain that "lie" is it.  Unless the Lie is in only one angle

> on truth.  It doesn't seem to me a particularly moralish notion as Lie

> sometimes suggests - what constitutes the Big Lie is factually accurate

> from a particular point of view, from a particular angle.  What is

> exposed is the multiplicity of angles.

 

In _Painting & Guns_ Burroughs talks about points of view in painting (this

was actually an essay that appeared elsewhere, but I don't recall the name

right now). His paintings, he said (I'm paraphrasing), were made to be

viewed from "any angle." The idea was to destroy the notion of one point of

view, one framed image with one place to look at. But with a framed image

you still have notions of left, right, top, bottom etc., so I wonder if

anyone has done something like this -- it would seem that a good way to do

implement "multiplicity of angles" would be a circular shaped canvas, and a

framing device that does not rely on hanging the picture in any particular

direction. To see this implemented in music and in film, that would be

interesting perhaps.

 

 

I liked "green tit."

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:34:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Ted W. Nagy" <tnagy@PASS.WAYNE.EDU>

Subject:      unsubscribe

In-Reply-To:  <33F76F7C.D8C@pacbell.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

unscribe beat-l

thankyou

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 18:51:19 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Rare books

 

Bill Morgan and Bob Rosenthal have issued a new catalog: The Beats/Edie

Kerouac Collection.  They have a number of items on sale that once

belonged to Edie, many containing her signature and stamp.  I found the

prices very reasonable.  For a copy of the catalog or for more

information, contact Morgan & Rosenthal, P.O. BOX 1631, Stuyvesant

Station, New York, NY   10009

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 08:12:18 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR -- chapter 1 still

MIME-Version: 1.0

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> RACE wrote:

> "Somewhere along the line I knew there'd be girls, visions, everything:

> somewhere along the line the pearl would be handed to me." (p.11)

> 

> I wonder if the pearl was ever handed off.  To JK, to us???  The

> fantastic tale is certainly in store and it provides everything - but

> perhaps not the pearl.

> 

> I'll lag along slowly pearl hunting.

 

 

I think JK finds many pearls but never THE pearl.  The flawed part is

probably that he kept searching for THE pearl instead of accepting the

many he found.

DC

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:58:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Young adult fiction???? and Chapter 1

In-Reply-To:  <970819125241_655415373@emout12.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Dawn B. Sova wrote:

 

> I'd be curious if other Beat books are similarly classified.  What a

> wonderful way to let the system open minds.

 

Yup. Several of the larger regional libraries near me have whole Beat

sections in their Young Adult area. Come to think of it, the only time I've

ever seen one of those newer (Penguin) Kerouac paperbacks in a library was

in the Young Adult area.

 

Despite the years of living with me & my Beat obsession, my little sister

(18) took to the Beats on her own just recently. She got Ginsberg's

_Cosmopolitan Greetings_ and Jack's _Book of Blues_ from the Young Adult

section at one of those said libraries.

 

 

m

 

email stutz@dsl.org  Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is

<http://dsl.org/m/>  free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long

                     as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO

                     WARRANTY; for details see <http://dsl.org/copyleft/>.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:23:39 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: OTR -- chapter 1 still

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Diane Carter wrote:

> 

> > RACE wrote:

> > "Somewhere along the line I knew there'd be girls, visions, everything:

> > somewhere along the line the pearl would be handed to me." (p.11)

> >

> > I wonder if the pearl was ever handed off.  To JK, to us???  The

> > fantastic tale is certainly in store and it provides everything - but

> > perhaps not the pearl.

> >

> > I'll lag along slowly pearl hunting.

> 

> I think JK finds many pearls but never THE pearl.  The flawed part is

> probably that he kept searching for THE pearl instead of accepting the

> many he found.

> DC

> DC

 

i'll try to look for "pearls" and not "THE" Pearl as i hunt along in

chapter two and onward.  the great pearl hunt  o o p s  i means "A"

great pearl hunt . . .

                        . . . in a whirlwind of madness on route ...

of the          AMERICAN        NIGHT   !

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:28:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Books from Edie Kerouac's library

 

We've just issued a catalogue of books from the library of Edie Kerouac that

might be of interest to collectors of Beat books.  Featured are a large

number of Burroughs, Ginsberg and Kerouac titles, many of with annotations by

Edie.  Anyone that would like a copy of the catalogue should e-mail me or

write to:

Morgan & Rosenthal

PO Box 1631

Stuyvesant Station

New York, NY  10009

 

Thanks, don't want to clutter up the list with advertisements, but thought

some of you might like to know about this.

 

We've also just published a beautiful book by Lawrence Ferlinghetti

illustrated by Larry Collins.  It's a poem called "The Hopper House at Truro"

he wrote after visiting Edward Hopper's house on Cape Cod.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:29:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      next post

MIME-Version: 1.0

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If you do not want to read an experimental work and tribute to your OTR

readings, please do not read my next post.  It is Georgetown to

Richland.

 

Any criticism is welcome, as long as it is not malicious. :-)

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:42:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Georgetown to Columbia ( A Travelogue)

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Georgetown to Columbia

(A Travelogue)

 

At 12:00 midnight, the Georgetown steel mill

Is belching smoke covering the sky

Demon-like redness.

At 12:00 noon, there is no smoke.

Georgetown on 17 Alt is cheap commercial construction.

On to Andrews, Panola, Burnt Gin,

Greelyville, Paxville, Pinewood.

Confederate navel battlejacks are unfurled,

Close to Mt. Zero Baptist Church

and the Pentacostal spirit filled flame.

Cotton, tobacco, strips of pine trees

Gobbled by giant beetles into trucks

To shed bark on your car.

 

Dekalb Corn signs like Detroit Red Wings,

Turn to Jesus or burn in HELL!

Columbia's free weekly.

At Coopers Country Grocery,

A bbq sandwich, crackling (low fat)

And Clearly Canadian.

A men's room with yellowed baseboards,

And ammonia eaten pipes.

Manchester, Wedgefield, knee high grass.

10th Anniversary Special Issue.

 

In Andrews the boys n the hood are

On the street.

Fierce, scary, no respect,

All is lost and gone, gone, gone.

(Probably real excited about workfare here.)

Yuhannah, Highway 261,

Thinking about youth

Imagining linear life.

And innocence.

 

Boiled peanuts are better for children than candy,

hulls flying out of window.

White cadillacs on blocks

White caddys on the road.

How could Antoine have known?

Tenants are people too!

Inside

The first issue.

Charles L. Griffin, III highway.

Right over Railroad Avenue.

 

Free Times.

Times are bought with a price.

What willing payment?

What extracted?

Jesus Saves.

Cross on the side,

Public boat ramps,

Pinewood hazard waste.

When will it arrive?

Hopkins, Lower Richland, Manchester.

Linear is not life.

Life is not linear.

Free entertainment,

But not linear,

And not necessairly pleasant.

Inside,

At the silo,

The chutes on the ground,

Corn scattered round.

 

Sumter F-15's thundering

I am in a vertical climb.

Is it possible to be

A dishonest polluter?

A white man barefoot,

Talks to the black woman.

The Confederate Navel Battlejack,

Flies down the block.

 

Like a river in fast forward,

I am flowing here,

Georgetown to Columbia.

Waste not want not.

I am here,

Nothing is there,

30 years in between.

Free times.

Columbia City Limits.

An All-American City.

Bessinger heats it

In a microwave.

And Garner's Ferry melts into the Devine.

Melt into the Divine.

 

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:52:13 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Bay Area/Beat-L Group

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Ron Guest wrote:

> 

>         I remember reading post about a Beat-l group trying to get together

> in the Bay         area.  Did it happen?  Any interesting news, ideas or

> topics for discussion come        out of that?

 

Ron,

 

The SF Bay Area Beatle Bash (First Annual or whatever) occured on August

2, the  evening of WSB's death at my place in Redwood City.  It was a

great party, lots of great discussion, although I cannot recall any

dominant theme that called out for list discussion.  Just wonderful,

raging talk.

 

Heartily recommend such gatherings.  A very unique event in that very

few people had met anyone there before except online.  Made for a really

great exchange.  Very little "what do you do for a living"--a lot more

about what folks had done, were doing, and were thinking.  Some

nostalgia, to be sure, but a lot of what's happening now and some great

cross generational discussions.

 

Will be posting pictures soon.  Stay tuned.

 

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:51:21 -0400

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@voicenet.com>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Chad King

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 Off hand I believe that Chad King is Hal Chase.  Is this correct?  I'm not

totally sure who Hal Chase is either.

 

Greg Elwell

elwellg@voicenet.com || elwellgr@hotmail.com

<http://www.voicenet.com/~elwellg>

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 11:40 AM

Subject: On the Road: Chad King

 

 

 

>Does anyone have a character list that identifies Chad King who is in the

>first part of On the Road?  Also, when he gets to Denver, Sal stays with

>a group of friends who seem to be on the outs with Cody and Irwin, does

>anyone know the social particulars of the time and whether it was just a

>personality conflict or did it have to do with views of literature, as

>one of the guys Sal stays with seems to want to write like Hemingway.

>DC

> 

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 20:18:39 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James William Marshall <dv8@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject:      OTR -- chapter 1 still

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

>"Somewhere along the line I knew there'd be girls, visions, everything:

>somewhere along the line the pearl would be handed to me." (p.11)

> 

>I wonder if the pearl was ever handed off.  To JK, to us???  The

>fantastic tale is certainly in store and it provides everything - but

>perhaps not the pearl.

> 

>I'll lag along slowly pearl hunting.

> 

>david rhaesa

>salina, Kansas

 

  I wonder if the pearl in the quote transcribed by David is an allusion to

Steinbeck's novella _The Pearl_.  I think that _The Pearl_ was published

about ten years before _On The Road_ so it's at least possible.  If it is an

allusion, the pearl Kerouac expects will be handed to him carries some

negative connotations.

 

                                                   Just musing,

                                                   James M.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:32:47 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         David Makar <dmakar@CCS.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: OTR -- chapter 1 still

In-Reply-To:  <199708210318.UAA21431@freya.van.hookup.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Wed, 20 Aug 1997, James William Marshall wrote:

 

> >"Somewhere along the line I knew there'd be girls, visions, everything:

> >somewhere along the line the pearl would be handed to me." (p.11)

> >

> >I wonder if the pearl was ever handed off.  To JK, to us???  The

> >fantastic tale is certainly in store and it provides everything - but

> >perhaps not the pearl.

> >

> >I'll lag along slowly pearl hunting.

> >

> >david rhaesa

> >salina, Kansas

> 

>   I wonder if the pearl in the quote transcribed by David is an allusion to

> Steinbeck's novella _The Pearl_.  I think that _The Pearl_ was published

> about ten years before _On The Road_ so it's at least possible.  If it is an

> allusion, the pearl Kerouac expects will be handed to him carries some

> negative connotations.

 

 

Wow James,

        That's a pretty good idea, seriously. Perhaps there are more

litterary alusions that Jack slipped in secretly.

 

                        -Dave

 

                    David Makar <dmakar@ccs.neu.edu>

 

    "I've never been too lucky, but I've never been too unlucky either"

 

                                        -Mikrad Vada

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:11:37 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: OTR -- chapter 1 still

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 08:18 PM 8/20/97 -0700, you wrote:

>>"Somewhere along the line I knew there'd be girls, visions, everything:

>>somewhere along the line the pearl would be handed to me." (p.11)

>> 

>>I wonder if the pearl was ever handed off.  To JK, to us???  The

>>fantastic tale is certainly in store and it provides everything - but

>>perhaps not the pearl.

>> 

>>I'll lag along slowly pearl hunting.

>> 

>>david rhaesa

>>salina, Kansas

> 

>  I wonder if the pearl in the quote transcribed by David is an allusion to

>Steinbeck's novella _The Pearl_.  I think that _The Pearl_ was published

>about ten years before _On The Road_ so it's at least possible.  If it is an

>allusion, the pearl Kerouac expects will be handed to him carries some

>negative connotations.

> 

>                                                   Just musing,

>                                                   James M.

> 

> 

Musing meself,

 

I'd think that the pearl (whatever "the pearl" actually is--kind of like IT)

probably more likley refers or comes from the pearl of great price.

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:49:43 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: how did you meet the beats.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

 

there is one aspect of the beat generation literature that it is not, and

that is timely.

 

Jason "donutman" Helfman

Three-Ring Creations

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:50:27 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: how did you meet the beats.

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

 

oops, thought you typed untimely, you typed untidy....and that it is not,

as well

 

Jason "donutman" Helfman

Three-Ring Creations

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:51:28 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Bay Area/Beat-L Group

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

 

bay area, meaning where specifically?

 

Jason "donutman" Helfman

Three-Ring Creations

=========================================================================

Date:         Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:54:36 -0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         jgh3ring <jgh3ring@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: On the Road: Chad King

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

 

does it matter who the character actually is, would it change your

perspective of the work, dull it numb it shit on it enlighten it...I

don't think their are many distict similarities in Kerouac of

Hemingway...they are writers and they write to write....

 

Jason "donutman" Helfman

Three-Ring Creations

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Aug 1997 14:46:38 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject:      wsb's death/ recommendations for US trip

In-Reply-To:  <199708210459.XAA03288@dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

hi folks,

i just came back from vacation when i heard the sad news about wsb's

death, so i turned back to good ole beat-l as fast as possible. i am sure

there were a good deal of posts saying something nice about him, his life

and his works. too bad that in germany he was only worth a little note in

the papers. would anyone be so kind and summarize the talk on the beat-l

for me ? (Or is it possible to get the collected posts, bill ?)

i didn't read much burroughs so far, but what i read fascinated and

disgusted me at the same time (don't get me wrong), he was one of the few

writers who knew to wake emotions in me i never felt before. his radical

lifestyle, strange and somehow familiar attracts me like only jk's could

do.

 

but i guess it's also just the american lifestyle that attracts me ( the

ambivalent (or is it -lence?) of nature and city, literature and crap,

mcdonalds, barnes and nobles, cars, weapons, beaches, all that stuff i

love and hate. yeah, i know i got a pretty sarcastic cliche marlboro

country conception.....anyway, i am coming over and need some good tips

about what to do. i start in nyc, then pennsylvania and then i wanna do

the "driveaway"-thing wherever it may take me...new orleans and mexico are

possible aims. Lowell, ma. stands also on the list, maybe we could arrange

a little beat-l meeting at "lowell celebrates kerouac" ?!

 

any recommendations welcome

and please excuse me for going to far into this slightly off-topic theme,

i am just so excited :)

 

            //

          (o o)

--------oOO-(_)-OOo------sincerely

                         moritz rossbach

                         saarbruecken, germany

                         moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

                         http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:42:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Burroughs Tribute Site

 

This is a great place to read expressions of condolence and memorium for WSB:

<A HREF="http://sunsite.unc.edu/mal/MO/wsb/">a living, breathing and ever grow

ing William ...</A>

 

diane de rooy

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:46:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: burroughs site

 

I'm never sure if I'm sending links right, so here's the path to that

Burroughs site again, just in case the first one didn't work.

 

diane

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    burroughs site

Date:    97-08-21 09:43:46 EDT

From:    Ddrooy

To:      Ddrooy

 

http://sunsite.unc.edu/mal/MO/wsb/

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:05:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@C