=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:58:26 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac in advertisement
In-Reply-To:
<msg1251041.thr-3ff78936.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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>>Permission
to use Jack Kerouac in that GAP ad came from John Sampas, the
>>executor
of the Keroauc Estate.
I could be
wrong. Was reminded of the CA laws about rights to use images
that
Nicosia posted some time ago. Sampas could have been by-passed by Jan
Kerouac.
Interesting
how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his
daughter
Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.
j grant
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:53:45 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: when god twirled the world into
existence...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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Sara
Straw says:
>Assuming
guilt from the past is a christian theme, and I am an atheist.
>sara
>
"The
ways of the Lord lead to liberty" sayeth St. Paul...
yet a man need liberty, not God, to be
able to
follow the ways of God" ---
Gregory Corso
from
''ELEGIAC FEELINGS AMERICAN
for the memory of John Kerouac''
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:43:13 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: The BeatGeneration and post-Nagasaki
Literature
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.971119221157.3865A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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At 22.16
19/11/97 -0500, Alex Howard wrote:
>Progressive
does not necessarily denote progress.
And as we all know,
>progress
does not necessarily mean good. The
guilt and responsibilty of
>the
deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki is on the head of every American.
>The
guilt and responsibility of everything that has occured out of those
>terrible
points belongs with every citizen of a country that calls itself
>any
sort of leader or player in the global cultural landscape. They
>cannot
be forgotten. Just as anyone who ignores
suffering and injustice
>because
it happens somewhere else in the world carries with them a
>responsibility for and to the victims of the Holocaust.
>
>------------------
>Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
Alex,
i think
people in XX century goes crazy in a lot of countries,
first of
all in italy, the place where fascism raise the flag
and making
the atomic bomb was a lot of europeans.
Gregory
Corso thinking
"You
Bomb Toy of universe... I cannot hate you... all
man hates
you they'd rather die by car-crash".
Gregory
Corso is a pacifist and he wrote the poem "Bomb"
after the
Trafalgar Square Meeting (London 1958).
The poet was
impressed by the people blinded with
hatred
against the
Bomb, he wrote the poem in Paris.
Allen
Ginsberg cutted out the typewritten poem and
sticked
them shaping as a mushroom cloud.
un caro saluto da
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:32:47 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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>>>How
can an atheist be spiritual? I
understand how spirit and the
>>>supreme
being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual
>>>do. Being spiritual implies the exisitence of
spirit which is not in line
>>>with
atheism.
>>
>> because all atheism states is the absence
of a belief in a
>>godhead,
period. now, atheism is as much a trap
as any other ism but i
>>won't
get into that.
>
>No. It
would also disclude polytheism as well.
>
>You are
saying an animist can be atheist. I
don't agree at all in that one
>cannot
differentiate irrational beliefs in spirits or Gods. All these
>beliefs
fall under an atheistic umbrella that holds the physical world is
>all
there is.
um, no.
you're misreading what was said.
"godhead" is a term
referring
to divinity. that can include multiple
gods.
KEN
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500
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From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: WSB
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"I am
not one of those weak-spirited, sappy Americans who want to be liked
by all the people around them. I don't care if
people hate my guts, I assume
most of them do. The important question is:
'What are they in a position to
do about it?'" -- William S. Burroughs
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:47:32 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac in advertisement
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Interesting
how different I feel about the ads when thinking that his
>daughter
Jan may sold the rights rather than Sampas.
>
>j grant
>.-
Congratulations
Joe! I really appreciate to hear this coming from you! It
helps us
all to be more skeptical of the
conclusions advocated with
vehemence
by opponnents in a heated controversy.
You didn't
have to tell us that. But you did. That's helping us to sort
things out
about the Estate issues as well. Thanks
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:01:48 -0500
Reply-To: mongo.bearwolf@Dartmouth.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mongo BearWolf
<mongo.bearwolf@DARTMOUTH.EDU>
Organization:
Dartmouth College
Subject: Student wishing help with research
project
Comments:
cc: "Sahra A. Carey" <s23blue@lightspeed.net>
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Hi Folks...
I'm
forwarding this note from a correspondent.
Please reply directly to
Sahra
(s23blue@lightspeed.net), not to me!
{:{)}
Thanks!
--Mongo
--------------------------------------------------------
...visit...
ALLEN GINSBERG:
Shadow Changes into Bone
The Clearinghouse for all things
Ginsberg!
http://www.ginzy.com
--------------------------------------------------------
-----
FORWARDED MESSAGE FOLLOWS ------------
>
Hey! I am a student doing a major
research
>
project on the beats in San Francisco as
> part
of the national history day competition.
> Ok, I
am a little bit of a procrastinator
> and I
need eight interviews from people about
> this
subject. I have four completed,
> some
secondary sources and some primary
>
sources of information. I could really
use
> some
help. I don't exactly know who you
> are at
this moment because I just got to
> your
site but I would appreciate it if you
> have
any e-mail addresses of people I could
>
interview for this over the net or perhaps
> you
could answer some questions through
> your
expert knowledge. I only have a few:
>
> 1)What
was the primary appeal of SF for
> many
beat writers and artists?
>
> 2)What
atmosphere was created there due
> to the
influx of the beat culture?
>
>
3)What, if any, major ideas came out of
> the
large beat community in relation to their
> impact
on today's society.
>
> 4)From
an economic stadnpoint, what
>
situation were the new "migrants" in
>
financially and what changes occured
> within
the city during the time.
>
> I
understand if you can't answer these
>
questions but any sort of blabbering will help
> me and
I need a few more interviews even
> though
the ones I already go are really
>
strong. Maybe you could pass this along
to
> others
as well and have them contact me:
>
>
s23blue@lightspeed.net
>
> Sahra
Carey
>
Bakersfield, CA
>
> Thanks
for any of your help!
>
> -sahra
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:10:37 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: when god twirled the world into
existence...
MIME-Version:
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Was your
point that there is no point?
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:12:31 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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Thank you,
Ken.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:13:57 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: WSB
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Ken,
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, truth feels good, like a hot tub.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:19:22 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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You have a
*belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
I use the
dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
primary
source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:25:01 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization:
SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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Voilla!
Its the
cover not the book, it's what you look like, not what you are,
it's personality,
not character.
Was it ever
any different?
s
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:42:41 -0500
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<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr."
<mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Kerouac's Reading
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While doing my research, I ran across this notebook
entry of Kerouac's from
September
1951. This explains more of how Kerouac viewed himself as a writer.
He writes:
"I'm going to be a Wolfean Proust, a Whitmanesque Dostoevsky, a
Melvillean
Celine, a Faulknerian Genet - in fact a Kerouassadian Ginsbergian
Shakespeare."
An irony is, that Ginsberg influenced Kerouac
in his writing while
Ginsberg
himself, at a round-table discussion at the Old Worthen in Lowell,
MA. on
October 3rd, 1992, explained that he was very much an imitator of
Kerouac.
On another
vein, but the same thread:
A precise notation of Kerouac about Twain's
story, "Mysterious Stranger"
can in fact
be connected to his sketches for Doctor Sax. He quotes in his
notebook,
"Life is a dream...you are but a vagrant thought wandering
forlornly
in shoreless eternities." A careful reading of Twain's story can
draw many
parallels to Kerouac and his ideas for Doctor Sax. This
observation
from February 1950 leads Kerouac to write, "Man haunts the
earth. Man
is on a ledge noising his life." The idea that we are amidst
eternity,
that it lives on within and without us parallels Mysterious
Stranger
with K's ideas for early plans of On the Road and Doctor Sax.
That's all for now! Don't forget to buy the
first volume of Selected
Letters in
hardcover from us!$10.00! They are brand new and will also come
with a free
copy of The Kerouac Quarterly Vol. I, No. 2.
See The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page!
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We
cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:50:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
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From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac GAP ad
MIME-Version:
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If anyone
hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at
http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif. This
is what
happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually
change the
name of the file afterwards.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:57:12 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac GAP ad
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Alex Howard
wrote:
>
> If
anyone hasn't seen this ad and would like to, I have it on my site at
> http://porter.appstate.edu/~kh14586/images/kerouac/kerouac-gap.gif. This
> is
what happens when you code the file for one name and forget to actually
> change
the name of the file afterwards.
>
>
------------------
> Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
>
kh14586@am.appstate.edu
P.O. Box 12149
>
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586
Boone, NC 28608
Thanks
Alex. It was one of those ads where i
would never have
remembered
who was doing the advertising. That
happens to me all the
time. I thought the image of Jack was pretty
good. Are there images of
the other
nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?
After
seeing this ad i can see how it could pull people into wondering
about
Kerouac more than wandering into some store in some mall somewhere
in
someplace sometime. But what do i know
about such important things
as Gap Ads
and everything Jack stood for anyway -- afterall my
subconscious
is still hungup on Nagasaki!!!! <still laughing at my
incompetent
typing last night>
david
rhaesa
salina,
Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:38:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac GAP ad
In-Reply-To: <3474CE58.5C3D@midusa.net>
MIME-Version:
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>
time. I thought the image of Jack was
pretty good. Are there images of
> the
other nasty, naughty advertisements available out there anywhere?
That's the
only one I've seen though I can't remember where I got it. If
The GAP has
a site, they probably have them all unless they've been sued
by
now. Think its interesting that's the
same picture as on the cover of
Joyce
Johnson's _Minor Characters_. Except in
this one she's been
airbrushed
out. At the big Beat Conference in NY a
few years ago, she
said that
that was pretty metaphorical of the place of women in the group:
there when
necessary, airbrushed out when not.
------------------
Alex
Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State
University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu
P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:03:51 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"
<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie
<cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady
ad.......formerly re:kerouac
ads
MIME-Version:
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>
Hey guys,
my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
could
somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
the theme
music, led zep, would be perfect!
cathy
>
Subject:
> Re: Kerouac ads
> Date:
> Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:24:56 -0800
> From:
> "Timothy K. Gallaher"
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
>
>
> >At
03:19 AM 11/20/97 UT, you wrote:
>
>>----------
>
>>From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation
List on behalf of Eric Lytle
>
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 19,
1997 12:00 PM
>
>>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>>Subject: Re: Kerouac ads
>
>>
> >
>
>>I feel that you bring up a very good point. But, I think the line in the
song
>
>>was kind of a tribute. Whereas
the feeling I get from the GAP ad is
>
>>different. Their intent was not
to make an artistic statement, or celebrate
>
>>Kerouac's life and work. It was
a coldcalculated attempt to hook certain
>
>>segments of the public into buying their clothes. Their motivation was
purely
>
>>and simply money. They don't
care that this contradicts everything Jack
>
>>believed in. They reduce his memory to a marketing strategy. I don't
know,
>
>>maybe it will generate interest.
In fact it probably will. But
interest in
>
>>what? Kerouac's art, or his
status as "Beat King."
>
>>Sorry . . .I'm venting.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
> >So
here's the antidote ad, sneaked on the air by guerilla video
>
>men tampering with big media's satellite feeds:
> >
> >Both
Kerouac and Neal Cassady, clad in khakis
for the Gap are
>
>boosting a '49 mercury from a parking lot in Kansas city circa
>
>1951. Sal and Dean are pushing the
car down a slight incline.
>
>Dean dives in the driver's side to
hot wire it,
>
>Sal silently steer-pushes the coupe from the lot. The motor
>
>coughs to life, the two beats flash smiles; Success! they
>
>roar away. In the fading dual
exhaust smoke, an announcer
>
>purrs: "The Gap..., the
difference between what's really
>
>true and what they're trying to put over on us this time..!"
> >
>
>(Camera dollies up and out leaving THE GAP label full-screen)
> >
>
>Mike Rice
>
>
Re-read On the Road and Sal's feelings about Dean's Car stealing when they
> were
together and you might re-evaluate who is trying to "put one over over
>
time"
>
>
>
Personally I couldn't care less about the gap or these gap ads. Who cares.
> We
don't own Jack kerouac anyhow so what is it to us.
>
> I
think the ads were nice because it was a good picture. If someone wanted
> a
picture of kerouac they could have trimmed off the Gap part.
>
> I also
think kerouac would have done ads if he were alive. Burroughs did
> shoe
ads. Ginsberg did the Khaki ads and he
was alive.
>
>
Nothing wrong with pants.
>
> And
Mike, I must add, nice mise en scene.
Led Zeppellin's when the levy
> breaks
should be the background muzak for this commercial. It will be for
> a
Mercedes Benz. Kerouac and cassady had
such great taste that they wanted
> to steal a Mercedres.
>
> gesundheit.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:44:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:
>You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
>I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
>primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion
about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of
language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about. it
doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism
is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view
is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:04:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
> saras@sisna.com,.Internet writes:
> >You have a *belief* in a common view that is erroneous.
> >I use the dictionary definition... fact is, the dictionary is the
> >primary source of the meanings of words for the general populace.
>
> thank you! i didn't want to say it for fear of a stupid discussion
> about semantics, but semantics is one of the most important aspects of
> language, otherwise no one knows what anyone else is talking about. it
> doesn't matter what the common conception is, it can be wrong, atheism
> is specifically godhead relative, mono or poly, what this common view
> is that has been described is not atheistic but aspiritual.
thank god someone has said this, the atheism i believe in is a good kind
spiritual atheism.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:07:08 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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thankyou for your thankyou.
My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,
communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...
People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,
and I am neither.
I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and
found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.
Oh well.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:14:42 -0600
Reply-To: vorys@concentric.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: vorys <vorys@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
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Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched? The Neon
appears to imply GAP rather than BAR. In which case the idea of Kerouac
hanging out at a clothing store becomes ridiculous.IMHO
Overall if the ad gets someone to read Kerouac who ordinarily
wouldn't, I fail to see the harm. For those who are offended ... don't
but the product.
I vaguely remember Kerouac writing something about Arrow shirts. Am I
off on this or does someone else know of the source?
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:41:58 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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Sara Straw wrote:
>
> thankyou for your thankyou.
> My big ole' dictionary sits right here beside me, cause, frankly,
> communication is important to me, and I like to have *resources*...
> People who make up their own definitions are either fools or geniuses,
> and I am neither.
> I USED to think I was pretty smart, until I got on the internet and
> found out, NOPE, I just live in an area filled with double digit IQers.
> Oh well.
> s
I collect dictionaries -- but i've been known to make up my own
definitions and even make up new words for fun and symbolic frolicking.
A fine line and balance of not letting my dictionaries own my language
and yet not flashing so far from the denotation (a real lie of a word)
that communicating is impossible.
Just bought every Xmas tape in town (almost) festivity will be burned
into my walls whether i or my walls like it or not. Right now James
Brown's Xmas music. HEY AMERICA ITS Xmastime!
Ooops. Gotta do that Turkey thing first. Thanksgiving Prayer by WSB on
"Dead City Radio" is all that is really necessary for that holiday.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:38:21 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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>It's a big world, bud, with lots of assholes in it. Those on death row,
>and those on Madison Avenue, and those living down the street. Be
>idealistic, but don't expect the world to come along... as long as there
>are assholes in the world, they are gonna screw it up. Not only that,
>shit happens regardless of assholes. Complaining about government has
>only one logical conclusion... get in there and run for office!
>SHOW us what you are talking about!
mmm.. i cringe at being called idealistic cause i like to think
i've left it behind.. it's not so much idealism i don;t think, as some
basic instinctual value placed on life. regardless of morals, ethics,
or other societorial imposed norms. i could never run for office
though, ack, politics bores me to no end.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:13:04 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gary Grismore <ggrismor@FREENET.COLUMBUS.OH.US>
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
In-Reply-To: <msg1259755.thr-68b654d4.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>my problem isn't with the fact that it's being presented, but the
>manner in which it is done and accepted; the fact that she was grinning
>at the deliberate cessation of life. makes me wonder what's happening
>in our heads, is compassion dead?
Compassion is as alive as it's ever been, though that's not saying much.
Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of
years:
*The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred on
June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as
well as a group of higher-class clientelle who had rented every possible
window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices. The crowd cheered at 4:50
am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover
of almost every French newspaper.
*The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro, KY
in 1936. This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had
attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am
hanging. A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the
still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and
tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair. Two doctors were finally able to
make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting a
groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally
declared at 5:45.
What's my point - Hell, I don't know. I guess only that we are going in
the right direction. We are not there yet, and some dizzy bimbo on TV
feeding us murder with a smile, is a disturbing reminder of that, but
closing our eyes to the past and the progress that has been made is not
going to help. What is? Again, I don't know. Here are some ideas: Join
amnesty international, vote Libertarian, write a letter to the editor...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:50:30 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: is this still beat-l?
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first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
and i have a bit of an empty head right now,
but (armorplated glass house)
i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
or philosophy 101
does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:54:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly
re:kerouac ads
Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net
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>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!
LED ZEPPELIN!! alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,
Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:55:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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>i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
>or philosophy 101
>does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
>winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
i empathize with you, but it's all relative... one way or another.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500
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From: Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Atheism -- Agnostic
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I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism. This was intertwined with a
view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose
was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that
religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the
question one step.
As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a
feeling of being attached to something bigger grew. My first definable
spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but
cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the
Laurentians. I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high
on exertion. The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on
the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees
creaking and my own panting. And then, it shifted. I was no longer a lone
skier in nature but a small part of nature. I felt connected, not only to
the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my
descendants to come, to everything and everyone. I was a part of this big
rolling ball of life and it felt good. There was no past, no future, there
was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to
be. In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being. I
slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and
forever changed.
This short glimpse made me put away my proudly worn label of atheism. I
still see no need for a supreme power, or for the fatalistic answers
he/she/it may give. I am not the center or end point but a mere speck in
the continuum. I like the term agnostic -- self defined as a disbelief in
organized religion but a consciousness of something bigger. Being spiritual
is being connected, the touchstone of acceptance & contentment. It is not me
vs you or man vs nature, for on a higher level, we are all one.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:42:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: A little too much of the Dharma
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'A wellknown truth in every private heart
in this long night of life:
A big defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,
A small one, there's no wiping it.
This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)
It seems Jack had a bit too much time on his hands in early '55...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:08:38 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
thread in ages.... *yawn*
ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Marie Countryman
Sent: Friday, November 21, 1997 4:50 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: is this still beat-l?
first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
and i have a bit of an empty head right now,
but (armorplated glass house)
i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
or philosophy 101
does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:16:47 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: beats and atheism
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I don't think it's possible to say that the Beats really promoted
atheism or caused atheism in anyone. Rather, they took what they liked
of other religions and mixed them all together. Beat Literature was
religion to a lot of people, part Buddhism, part jazz, part LSD. The
Beats both celebrated and closely examined life. Ginsberg, Kerouac,
Burroughs and all the others each had their own personal problems, but
when they wrote, they were unified. That is a very beautiful thing
that cannot be regarded as anything less than spiritual.
Maggie G.
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:03:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
particular religion.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:06:56 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Rbt. Johnson etching
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971118091419.24600A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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Derek,
Check sent to pay for print was returned because of Postal strike in
Canado. E-mail me when the strike is over.
j grant
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:12:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Big Sur
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At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>thread in ages.... *yawn*
I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
No human words bespeak
the token sorrow older
than old this wave....
Excerpt from "Sea"
JK - Big Sur
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:34:32 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
topic should initiate it.
s.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:37:52 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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That's REAL nice, but I think you need to use your dictionary to
undersand the actual MEANING of belief and faith.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
In-Reply-To: <msg1267209.thr-2a817531.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
> particular religion.
"Agnostic" means that you believe it's not possible to *know* whether or
not God exists--and since it is not possible to know this, you must keep
open the *possibility* that He does, as well as the *possibility* that He
does not.
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:06:06 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur/vanity of duluoz
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i'll be following you shortly, judith, will be on the west coast next month.
(taking big sur out of bookcase as i type. additionally , i'd be interested in
reading/discussing vanity of duluoz: first time reading many years ago, too
young, i believe myself to have been to read through the rawness to the core.
i've attended beat seminars in which most hotly debated work has been the
duluoz, would be very interestd in having a reading and discussio of this
work.
thanks for giving my brain a jolt of energetic thought.
mc
Judith Campbell wrote:
> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
> >thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
> I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
> around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
> the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
> struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
> No human words bespeak
> the token sorrow older
> than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
> Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:24:21 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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Judith Campbell wrote:
>
> At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
> >yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
> >thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
> I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
> drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
> around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
> the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
> struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
> ....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
> No human words bespeak
> the token sorrow older
> than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
> Judith
I'm up for something different. Big Sur was on my Xmas want list but i
may buy it in Denver at Tattered Cover and send Santa a revised list.
(I haven't been a particularly good boy anyway).
I found the idea of a novel length suicide note a very intriguing way of
looking at Big Sur -- at least figuratively if not literally. This
impression seems to go a step further than what i've heard from others
concerning the novel -- and perhaps it is a step worth looking at
closely in reading Big Sur.
to kill some time this afternoon i did a bit of searching about Big
Sur. Here is something of what I found......
Just for some background, I did a metacrawler search
<http://www.metacrawler.com/index.html> of Kerouac "Big Sur" and found
some information which some may find useful. I'm fairly certain that
others will have many more sites to augment this list.
As one might expect, Levi Asher has a nice commentary on the novel "Big
Sur" at: <http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Books/BigSurBook.html> as well
as a nice page on Beat Places discussing Big Sur at:
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Places/BigSurPlace.html>
Also, in the Kerouac section of the John Cassady interview, JC talks
briefly about Kerouac at LF's cabin.
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/JCI/JCI-Two.html>
In addition, various pages pop up with more than a passing reference as
in the following: <http://www.kerouac.com/kerouac/bigsur.html> --
Amazon.com includes links to write reviews of the book to be
incorporated into their site
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0140168125/gloriagbrameA/0070-7114361-
694721>
like i said, this is nowhere near a compleat list. just some tidbits i
found trying to weed out the most passing references in general JK pages
on my search.
i imagine others will have access to reviews and other places to dig.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:31:16 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: the mercedes/ledzep/kerouac cassady ad.......formerly
re:kerouac ads
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>Hey guys, my sister does music videos freelance kind of work, perhaps we
>>could somehow convince her to do this commercial, just to see? I think
>>the theme music, led zep, would be perfect!
>
> LED ZEPPELIN!! alright, a fellow fan... interestingly enough,
>Robert Plant has a pretty wanderlust beat attitude...
I gotta say you folks got taste. Spent last night jammin' on Led Zep tunes
with new buddies. Our singer had his eye-lights put out in Vietnam, is a
counselor and writes books about how to have healthy relationships, and he
sounds like Robert Plant. And Now Zeppelin on the list. Too much damn fun!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:42:22 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: opening chapter of duluoz
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All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after
I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make
good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I
also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll
understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too
sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to
be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and
washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in
three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very
'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of
doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use
regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).
Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years
to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or
recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I
can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,
used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing
no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or
girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people
have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?
Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a
bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?
_______
a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
freedom.
also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
in the sentence
"And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
_____
my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this
territory?
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:46:52 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: netiquette
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i would like furthermore to comment on the vast number of one sentence
zingers and arguments that refer to unknown posts, other then those
partaking in the argument, fill and clutter mail box, and because there
is a limit of number of posts per day (is that still right, bill?)
clutter mailboxes. really, please take it off list.
thankyou
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:55:01 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: big sur/research
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dave: wonderful list of resources. i'm going to be out of computer range
for a day or two, but will be hightailing it into the web as soon as i'm
back (while gone, i hope to finish reading duluoz and have that as an
overview. i had always thought of duluoz as the novel as a suicide note
of jack's spirit, it looks to be an interesting project.
thanks.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:27:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: New Kerouac Bio
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The Kerouac Quarterly Web Page has been updated again today! Always more
news on Jack...
For those who haven't yet gotten Vol. I, No. 2, they are selling out
quick. E-mail me first for availability. It looks like Vol. II, No. 1 will
be available after the first of the next year. Lots of good stuff once more.
Still some copies of Selected Letters Volume I left, all hardcover firsts
fresh out of the box from Viking, plus a free complimentary copy of The
Kerouac Quarterly!
Also, news on a new bio coming out in June...go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks folks!
Paul of TKQ!!
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:07:09 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> re: suggesting new topics, sara, i guess you are new here, as i have
> offered up many a topic in the past to get the list moving back on
> topic,
> which is the reading and discussion of the writings of the beats.
> just giving other folk time to reflect over the past month and choose
>
> something to read. judith has offered up a novel and so have i. read
> either of them? interested in reading them for what is in the text and
>
> discussing them? and i'm sure there are many list-servs which have
> what
> you are looking for philosophy-wise, or do what many members of this
> list
> do when topic strays into special interest off topics: cc: one
> another
> and discuss. this has been done often, most recently the folks who
> read
> Ulysseus did so off list, making both them and others happy. i for one
>
> would like you to stay here and read with us.
> mc
>
> Sara Straw wrote:
>
> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a
> new
> > topic should initiate it.
> > s.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:20:17 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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At 03:12 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>>thread in ages.... *yawn*
>
>
>I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
>drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
>around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
>the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
>heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
>alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
>struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
>
>....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
>No human words bespeak
>the token sorrow older
>than old this wave....
>
> Excerpt from "Sea"
> JK - Big Sur
>
>
>Judith
>
>
I haven't read Big Sur in a long time.
Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
What did the deep sea say?
What did the deep sea say?
It moaned and it groaned
and it splashed and it foamed
and it rolled on its' weary way
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:16:28 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: 90's Soul (was Re: Beat Fad)
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Gary Grismore cited the following:
> Public executions have been forms of mass entertainment for hundreds of
> years:
> *The last public guillotining (sp?) in France occurred on
> June 17, 1939, witnessed by a noisy, determined mob at street-level, as
> well as a group of higher-class clientele who had rented every possible
> window/balcony/vantage point at premium prices. The crowd cheered at
4:50
> am when the head dropped and graphic photos soon graced the front cover
> of almost every French newspaper.
> *The last public execution in the USA reportedly occurred in Owensboro,
KY
> in 1936. This was witnessed by a crowd of 20,000, many of whom had
> attended all-night 'hanging parties' to prime themselves for the 5:12 am
> hanging. A cheer was raised at the falling of the bolt, and soon the
> still-warm body was mobbed by a throng of souvenir-hunters ripping and
> tearing at clothing, flesh, and hair. Two doctors were finally able to
> make an examination upon the body - their report of heartbeats eliciting
a
> groan throughout the crowd, until a pronouncal of death was finally
> declared at 5:45.
In my home state (Wisconsin) there has only been one official execution,
over 100 years ago. The reaction of the mob was so appalling (similar to
that described above) that capital punishment was legally abolished here,
and so far remains so. Although there are those who would like to roll
back civilization once again...
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:35:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <msg1259953.thr-63eeecba.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> >How can an atheist be spiritual? I understand how spirit and the
> >supreme
> >being do not necessarily have to go together but spirit and spiritual
> >do.
> >Being spiritual implies the exisitence of spirit which is not in line
> >with
> >atheism.
>
> because all atheism states is the absence of a belief in a
> godhead, period. now, atheism is as much a trap as any other ism but i
> won't get into that.
>
As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:59:48 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ginsberg memorial
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I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg
memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
general public? If so, will it be a free event?
I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed
themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
'Howl' back in the 60's."
He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will
continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
life for all of my days.
Maggie G.
Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:17:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
In-Reply-To: <3475B372.1E47@concentric.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?
It has been _very_ retouched. Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing
right behind him leaning against the wall. I don't think the leg of the R
was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:27:16 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap ad.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:17 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote:
>> Does anyone know if the Kerouac Gap photo has been retouched?
>
>It has been _very_ retouched. Joyce Johnson is supposed to be standing
>right behind him leaning against the wall. I don't think the leg of the R
>was visible in the original but I don't have it in front of me to check.
>
>------------------
>Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
>
I seem to also remember having seen it in color.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:12:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST, judith wrote:
<< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>>
I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer and
felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,
which are perfect, disturbing and true.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:35:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: A little too much of the Dharma
In a message dated 97-11-21 14:55:17 EST, Adrien wrote:
<< This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)
>>
Jack thought a lot about the toilet, you know, not just in 1955 but on and
on. In BIG SUR elements of the ritual of shitting become real issues for him,
and I quote:
"The President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great
bishops and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory
worker with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers
and presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive
traveling cases in which they place these various expensive English imported
hair brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around
with dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and
water! it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the
funniest things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're
being called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around
with clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]
In only slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:
"In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing
special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired
go and lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will
understand.
I always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality
when I read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his
body while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:03:38 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 02:59 PM 11/21/97 -0800, you wrote:
> I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg
>memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
>general public? If so, will it be a free event?
> I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed
>themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
>remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
>put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
>alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
>worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
>learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
>'Howl' back in the 60's."
> He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will
>continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
>life for all of my days.
> Maggie G.
>Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>That crazy guy wrote and recited that crazy poem Howl back in
the fifties.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:04:30 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg memorial
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Maggie Gerrity wrote:
>
> I'm very interested in learning more about the Allen Ginsberg
> memorial which will be held on 7/3/98 in NYC. Will this be open to the
> general public? If so, will it be a free event?
> I'm glad to see that so many notable people have committed
> themselves to bringing this memorial service to life. Ginsberg was a
> remarkable person, not to mention one of the best Americans to ever
> put pen to paper and write. He had a wild mind, crazy, funny,
> alarming, and thought-provoking, to say the least. Recently I've
> worked on an in-depth research project about Ginsberg, and I've
> learned so much about him. He's not just "that crazy guy who wrote
> 'Howl' back in the 60's."
> He was one hell of a poet and one hell of a man, and he will
> continue to be one of the biggest influences in both my writing and my
> life for all of my days.
> Maggie G.
> Am I myself or someone else, or nobody at all?--AG "After Lalon"
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
MAGGIE: The Parks Department says June 3 is the date for the annual
Central Park Conservancy and regrets erroneously notifying me
otherwise. The tribute, planned as a two-day observance (one day in
Central Park and the next day in Newark's new PAC Center) is expected to
attract poets and artists from all over the world. Amiri Baraka and I
have struggled to get the Central Park date because all previous
Ginsberg Memorials were held within 4 walls, and many who wanted to
attend couldn't BECuaaw there wasn't enough room. We call the June
tribute "A Convocation of Contemporaneity's 'Best Minds.'" The event
will be open to all and the date will be June 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12. An
executive committee meeting must be held shortly to decide which date.
---Al Aronowitz, secretary, THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:15:18 -0800
Reply-To: gbarker@thegrid.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
> simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
> particular religion.
I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there
is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is
beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to
figure its intentions.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:13:46 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: TIME Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
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Anne wrote:
>
> Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
> > to remain in the semantic vein, i've always understood agnostic to
> > simply mean a belief in a godhead, but without subscribing to any
> > particular religion.
>
> I am agnostic, and, at least to me, it means that I believe that there
> is something more powerful than myself that affects my life, but it is
> beyond my comprehension and it would be a waste of my time to try to
> figure its intentions.
sounds like maybe you've comprehended it and named it Time.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
"Death needs Time for what it lives to Grow on - for Ah Pook's Sweet
Sake." -- WSB
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:48:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sinverg=FCenza?= <ljilk@MAIL.MPS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
In-Reply-To: <971121191223_617548379@mrin58.mail.aol.com>
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You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>>In a message dated 97-11-21 16:48:19 EST,
judith wrote:
>
><< Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
> heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
> alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
> struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
>
> >>
>I couldn't agree with you more, Judith. I read Big Sur again last summer an=
d
>felt the same way, only I never got around to putting it in these words,
>which are perfect, disturbing and true.
I really do like Big Sur despite its sadness. You can see that this is
Kerouac at his most worn out and also at his most sincere. It is as if some
of the magic of life, and how he had viewed life in say, OTR, had kind of
been torn apart by the alcaholism and the reality of life and failure and
relationships. Now he can look back on what happened to him and see that he
is failing but that he no longer has the energy to repair the "botch of his
days". He is almost done "going". Is it in here that he says that it will
be his last hitchhike, or that he is done hitchhiking? Big Sur is my
favorite Kerouac after OTR.
leo
"All I wanted was to be a mariachi like my ancestors. But the city I
thought would bring me luck...Brought only a curse...I lost my guitar, my
hand, and her...With this injury, I may never play the guitar
again...Without her, I have no love. But with the dog...and the weapons,
I'm prepared...for the future." --The Mariachi in "El Mariachi"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:01:39 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> _______
> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
> freedom.
> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
> in the sentence
> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
I can't get over how bitter Jack is in the first chapter. He's refuting
everything he used to enjoy doing. It's a big, bitter,
been-there-done-that-so-what attitude. It's also sad to see him abandon
his spontaneous prose, of which he was very proud. In 1967 he comes
across as a boozed-up, lazy man. As we go further into the book, we'll
see the familiar Kerouac reverie that made him so great (if the book was
ALL bitterness, I wouldn't be rereading it again). We just have to
endure the grumpy old man's surliness in the first five or so pages.
Also, you can sense a bit of sad longing for his days with Neal...
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:10:25 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
Comments: To: saras@sisna.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sara Straw wrote:
>
> Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
> You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
> topic should initiate it.
> s.
I'll initiate a new topic...
Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn
more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do
you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,
but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac
and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do
you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg
and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?
All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.
emoticonlessly yrs,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:40:20 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Mama Collins
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Mama Collins
Shell,
Eyes of lost child,
Wanderer on highways,
Going home?
One Christmas,
Recalling my name,
A flash I recognized.
Later, sitting outside
Nursing home,
I refused to see the remnants of
Matriarchal dynasty.
Thoughtless, lost shell,
No person here.
Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,
Regrets are sifted.
Synapsis misfiring.
Not arteries, but sickness.
Had I known
Fear of aging,
of madness,
of slipping slowly away,
of suffering.
Had I but seen beyond the shell.
Perhaps, sifting regrets,
Looking to see beyond.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:47:54 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
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Adrien Begrand wrote:
>
> Sara Straw wrote:
> >
> > Gee, I wouldn't mind a philosophy 101 class at ALL!
> > You're RIGHT! You ARE in a Glass House.... I say, those who want a new
> > topic should initiate it.
> > s.
>
> I'll initiate a new topic...
> Why are you here? Do you know much about the beats? Do you want to learn
> more about the beats? Do you love Kerouac, Ginsberg, and Burroughs? Do
> you love Kerouac, but not Ginsberg and Burroughs? Do you love Ginsberg,
> but not Kerouac and Burroughs? Do you love Burroughs, but not Kerouac
> and Ginsberg? Do you love Kerouac and Ginsberg, but not Burroughs? Do
> you love Kerouac and Burroughs, but not Ginsberg? Do you love Ginsberg
> and Burroughs, but not Kerouac? Or do you just dig Bob Kaufman?
>
> All we know is beat-l has received another surly member.
>
> emoticonlessly yrs,
>
> Adrien
i just hate them all to hell!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:04:22 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
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>On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
>> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
>>
>> What did the deep sea say?
>> What did the deep sea say?
>> It moaned and it groaned
>> and it splashed and it foamed
>> and it rolled on its' weary way
>
>That's really nice. I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually
>heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite
>artists. Would you mind telling me where this song is available? Thanks,
>Gary
There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available. Many with Cisco Houston. They
compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this
one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is
there (I forget the name of this particular tape. I think it is called
what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there. One thing I
can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress
set.
You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording. Just make sure it is
Woody Guthrie. Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you. You
think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people
singing the songs.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:23:42 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: woody guthrie (was Re: Big Sur
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> >> Reading this post reminded me of the old Woody Guthrie song What Did the
> >> Deep Sea Say? with the chorus
> >>
> >> What did the deep sea say?
> >> What did the deep sea say?
> >> It moaned and it groaned
> >> and it splashed and it foamed
> >> and it rolled on its' weary way
> >
> >That's really nice. I'm amazed of how little Woody Guthrie I've actually
> >heard, considering what an influence he's been on many of my favorite
> >artists. Would you mind telling me where this song is available? Thanks,
> >Gary
>
> There are Guthrie tapes and CD's available. Many with Cisco Houston. They
> compile them differntly depending on who releases the recording so for this
> one you'd need to look for the titles on the back and see if the song is
> there (I forget the name of this particular tape. I think it is called
> what did the deep sea say so it's easy to tell if it is there. One thing I
> can say for sure is it is not one of the songs on the Library of Congress
> set.
>
> You can't go wrong buying a Woody Guthrie recording. Just make sure it is
> Woody Guthrie. Sometimes they package tributes that will fool you. You
> think you're buying a Guthrie recording and your buying other people
> singing the songs.
some of the tributes are really pretty good. they definitely show some
of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just
on dylan.
his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of
Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 07:32:41 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur
i agree with you, Judith. it's an amazing piece of confessional writing that
one wonders if the confessor really understood just how much he was showing
us. what a raw bearing of human soul in torment, loss, conflict and longing.
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Judith Campbell
Sent: Friday, November 21, 1997 12:12 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Big Sur
At 07:08 PM 11/21/97 sherri wrote:
>yeah - let's talk about "Big Sur" or something. haven't even read on THIS
>thread in ages.... *yawn*
I reread Big Sur while on my California pilgrimage in September. I also
drove down the Pacific Coast Highway and stopped at the bridge to just look
around for a while. I stood on the rocks and read "Sea" - listening to
the waves crash in. Knowing how Jack's life ended, Big Sur is always a
heartbreaking read for me - he's so raw and broken. If he had beaten the
alcohol and lived, it would have only been interesting commentary on his
struggle. Instead, it's like reading a suicide note.
....shush.....Shirk....Boom plop...
No human words bespeak
the token sorrow older
than old this wave....
Excerpt from "Sea"
JK - Big Sur
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:40:49 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: woody guthrie (was Re: Big Sur
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I have to recommend _Ballads of Sacco & Vanzetti_. Truly Amazing!
Adrien
RACE --- wrote:
>
> some of the tributes are really pretty good. they definitely show some
> of the range of influence WG had on a wide variety of music - not just
> on dylan.
>
> his songbook "Hard hitting songs" is pretty good and books "Seeds of
> Man" and "Born to Win" are Excellent.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
> p.s. oh yeah that other book "Bound for Glory" ain't bad either.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:24:43 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: latin people
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cari amici,
i've a flashback of a movie with Dennis Hopper
in a latino american country (Mexico?) dated
circa 1970, where a group of friends have a
similar experience to Sal Paradise and
Dean Moriarty in the 3th part of "On the Road".
somehow or other the exotic countries are
described such as place where people goes
crazy and transgressive. this way is a bit
disappointing. why Mexico, Brazil, Italy, etc.
are match with such strange peculiarity?
i.e. the "german" people (or others of course, but
i've noticed them) when are in Italy they have
drunk and very rude, but when are in his own country
(saying Munich) they are square and respectable person.
un saluto a tutti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:43:17 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Mama Collins
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hi bentz: your pome just brought to mind all the mixed feelings i
experienced in looking at pictures taken of my father this past summer.
alcoholic and small strokes in succession, i looked at the photos and
saw only a shell, no light of comprehension in the eyes, couldn't write
of it yet. thanks, you give my muse a wider scope than my mind has been
able to allow/
mc
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Mama Collins
>
> Shell,
> Eyes of lost child,
> Wanderer on highways,
> Going home?
>
> One Christmas,
> Recalling my name,
> A flash I recognized.
> Later, sitting outside
> Nursing home,
> I refused to see the remnants of
> Matriarchal dynasty.
> Thoughtless, lost shell,
> No person here.
>
> Now, wishing to see beyond the shell,
> Regrets are sifted.
> Synapsis misfiring.
> Not arteries, but sickness.
> Had I known
> Fear of aging,
> of madness,
> of slipping slowly away,
> of suffering.
> Had I but seen beyond the shell.
> Perhaps, sifting regrets,
> Looking to see beyond.
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:12:40 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> All right, wifey, maybe i'm a big pain in the you-know-what,but after
> I've given you a recitation of the troubles I had to go through to make
> good in America between 1935 and more or less now, 1967, and although I
> also know everybody in the world's had his own troubles, you'll
> understand that my particular form of anguish came from being too
> sensitive to all the lunkheads I had to deal with just so I could get to
> be a high school football star, a college student pouring coffee and
> washing dishes and scrimmaging till dark and reading Homer's _Illiad_ in
> three days all at the same time and God help me, a WRITER whose very
> 'success,' far from being the a happy triumph as in old, was the sign of
> doom Himself. (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use
> regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation).
> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says, but in the past thirty years
> to such an extent that I don't recognize them as people any more or
> recognize myself as a real member of something called the human race. I
> can remember in 1935 when fulgrown men, hands deep in jacket pockets,
> used to go whistling down the street unnoticed by anybody and noticing
> no one themselves. And walking fast, too, to work or store or
> girlfriend. Nowadays, tell me, what is this slouching stroll people
> have? Is it because they're used to walking across parking lots only?
> Has the automobile filled them with such vanity that they walk like a
> bunch of lounging hoodlums to no destination in particular?
> _______
> a few comments: the automobile, which gave impetus to the beat
> generation's travel to and fro in america now seen as antithesis of
> freedom.
> also: despite the dark nature of piece and condemnation of those who did
> not appreciate his dashes, there is still the kerouac lilting signature
> in the sentence
> "And walking fast, too, to work or store or girlfriend."
> _____
> my hats in the ring, gents and women, shall we venture further into this
> territory?
> mc
at the risk of appearing *too* twisted, the second reading of this
didn't seem to me to be harsh at all. it seemed in fact that JK was
near a breakthrough to a recognition of the absurdity of wanting
everyone to walk alike.
this morning i was goofing around and found this site
<http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.html>
and it made me think even more about my second reading. In the earlier
Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of
new people who were different. Here he seems to not only have lost that
-- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them
nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being
able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once
enjoyed so much. But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is
probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor
across the hall. The current trends in culture trying to teach suburban
mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New
Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in
various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to
be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings. And yet
it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement
that things aren't the same. I think Vanity in the title will be
telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but just
realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless
felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend
and its lessons for me (at least).
At any rate that is a saturday morning twisted salina monologue ---- i
imagine that my third reading of the opening would send me somewhere
completely different <las>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my
family and relatives and whatnot. But i'm interested, in the event that
i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
suggestions?
also thanks to antoine for some Xmas music tips -- any other backchannel
Xmas music ideas will be thoroughly appreciated.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:23:19 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
> mc
anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
here? i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to
check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
to the other side of writer's block>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:25:32 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: atheism-agnostic
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> Subject:
> Atheism -- Agnostic
> Date:
> Fri, 21 Nov 1997 13:45:27 -0500
> From:
> Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
>
>
> I once, paradoxically, put my faith in atheism. This was intertwined with a
> view that spirituality was religion, that religion's only honorable purpose
> was to explain the unexplainable, and that the majority of answers that
> religion gave - If God created man, who created God? - simply removed the
> question one step.
>
> As the years past, my distrust of organized religion did not diminish, but a
> feeling of being attached to something bigger grew. My first definable
> spiritual experience did not occur in a church or mosque or temple but
> cross-country skiing, in Northern Quebec, through the ancient hills of the
> Laurentians. I was alone in the blue sky-ed, thirty below wilderness, high
> on exertion. The crisp sun peering through the leafless maples, dancing on
> the fresh trackless snow, the world silent save for the sounds of the trees
> creaking and my own panting. And then, it shifted. I was no longer a lone
> skier in nature but a small part of nature. I felt connected, not only to
> the natural beauty surrounding me, but to my known & unknown ancestors, my
> descendants to come, to everything and everyone. I was a part of this big
> rolling ball of life and it felt good. There was no past, no future, there
> was only the moment, the greater we, that always was and would continue to
> be. In bliss I floated, not seeing angels or Gods, but simply being. I
> slid out of this heightened awareness cold, miles from the cabin, serene and
> forever changed.
Wasn't there one time when Kerouac (to put this nicely) tried copulating
with Nature/Earth in his own backyard? Wondering if there was any truth
to this, and was it done more as a sign of frustration or a real love of
nature or a spiritual thing?
anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:43:14 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Vanity of dulouz
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I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to
carry vanity of dulouz. that was the one i was wanting to read next,
after 'some of the dharma.' is 'dulouz' out of print? or is it
avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out
here...)
and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas
estate plans on releasing next??????
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:55:38 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Marie Countryman wrote:
>> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>> mc
>
>anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>here?
Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:59:46 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Vanity of dulouz
Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I've looked and looked and every bookstore around here does not seem to
>carry vanity of dulouz. that was the one i was wanting to read next,
>after 'some of the dharma.' is 'dulouz' out of print? or is it
>avaiable (Please all you bookstore employees on the list, help me out
>here...)
It is in print. Costs 11.95. Try another bookstore or Tower Records.
There is www.amazon.com or www.barnes&noble.com that are web booksellers.
I have never bought from them, but they will send them to you in a matter
of days at a discount price.
If anyone has used these on-line behemoths I'd be curious to hear about it.
Also a great humanitarian here provided www.bibliofind.com which seems to
be used books but it has a massive great inventory (inventory should
actually be in quotes).
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:36:47 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
In-Reply-To: <199711211752.MAA06052@pike.sover.net>
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well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
question:
does beat studies fall into the same issues of
canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
the list falls prey to this, as well?)
kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
jim donahue
On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> first, i admit i'm living in a glass house, having not contributed to
> any discussions about *the writings* except to throw up for
> consideration the letters to AG and WSB's interzone and naked lunch.
> and i have a bit of an empty head right now,
> but (armorplated glass house)
> i keep feeling like i've wandered into an advertizing and ethics class
> or philosophy 101
> does anyone out there have an idea for a fresh topic?
> winner gets sound of one hand clapping.
> mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:44:25 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James Donahue wrote:
>
> well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
> question:
> does beat studies fall into the same issues of
> canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
> highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
> the list falls prey to this, as well?)
> kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
> and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
> jim donahue
probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility. Go Rinaldo Go.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:47:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> >Marie Countryman wrote:
> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
> >> mc
> >
> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
> >here?
>
> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that
we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
frustrate a natural born writer.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:51:18 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Donahue <donahujl@BC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
In-Reply-To: <347719F9.2290@midusa.net>
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On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> James Donahue wrote:
> >
> > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
> > question:
> > does beat studies fall into the same issues of
> > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
> > highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
> > the list falls prey to this, as well?)
> > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
> > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
> > jim donahue
>
> probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
> nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility. Go Rinaldo Go.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
do have the html of this website?
id rather go direct than have to swin through all the
stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:54:04 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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David Rhaesa wrote:
> p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my
> family and relatives and whatnot. But i'm interested, in the event that
> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
> suggestions?
I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them
up:
Visions of Gerard
Dr. Sax
Maggie Cassidy
Vanity of Duluoz
The Town and the City
On The Road
Visions of Cody
Lonesome Traveler
Book of Blues
The Subterraneans
The Book of Dreams
The Dharma Bums
The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
Old Angel Midnight
Some of the Dharma
Desolation Angels
Mexico City Blues
Tristessa
Big Sur
Trip Trap
Satori in Paris
Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
thread is going to be interesting....
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:58:56 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James Donahue wrote:
>
> do have the html of this website?
> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the
> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
the shit-kicking list is at:
<http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/thebeats.htm>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:08:09 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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> As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
> Cordially,
> Mike Skau
I give up, what does THAT mean?
It sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.
s
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:14:36 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>
>> >Marie Countryman wrote:
>> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>> >> mc
>> >
>> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>> >here?
>>
>> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
>
>well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
>Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
>certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that
>we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
>basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
>frustrate a natural born writer.
>
You think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?
I am sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings
about Finnegans wake.
(Which McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in
Vanity of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:38:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Splicing in AG into the Beat-Legend (was Re: Ordering of the
Duluoz Legend
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Jym Mooney wrote:
>
> I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them
> up:
OK -- thats An order so folks may want to quibble about it in the
previous thread. Now i'm wondering from those out there (and i know
some of you are out there!) how you would splice in the various books by
Allen Ginsberg. (yes, WSB, Corso, Snyder, etc. etc. are down the road
in this line of thinking. no particular reason i picked AG second.
just did).....thanks for the help. i like this list that although is
still in fetus stage - may be going somewhere someday somehow.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>
> Visions of Gerard
> Dr. Sax
> Maggie Cassidy
> Vanity of Duluoz
> The Town and the City
> On The Road
> Visions of Cody
> Lonesome Traveler
> Book of Blues
> The Subterraneans
> The Book of Dreams
> The Dharma Bums
> The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
> Old Angel Midnight
> Some of the Dharma
> Desolation Angels
> Mexico City Blues
> Tristessa
> Big Sur
> Trip Trap
> Satori in Paris
>
> Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
> thread is going to be interesting....
>
> Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:01:53 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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> RACE wrote:
> this morning i was goofing around and found this site
>
>http://members.aol.com/KatharenaE/private/Philo/Existentialism/absurd.ht
>ml
> and it made me think even more about my second reading. In the earlier
> Kerouac that i've read there was a beauty in the innocent discovery of
> new people who were different. Here he seems to not only have lost
> that
> -- but gotten to where (excuse my dashes i have no clue how to use them
> nor parentheses) his recognition of difference is at a pit of not being
> able to see the possibility of being part of the human race he once
> enjoyed so much. But the wonderful absurdity of the human race is
> probably precisely the differences the total alien-ness of my neighbor
> across the hall. The current trends in culture trying to teach
> suburban
> mall conformity (which i seem to recall WSB's late journals in the New
> Yorker decrying) and the reactionary conformity of anti-conformity in
> various groups and sub-groups found outside of the malls seem to me to
> be really very close to the anger suggested in these openings. And yet
> it is just a short skip from this anger to reveling in the excitement
> that things aren't the same. I think Vanity in the title will be
> telling - the absurdity of vanity (not the suppression of it -- but
> just
> realizing that vanity is rarely rationally defensible yet nonetheless
> felt deeply) goes along way in trying to figure out this whole Legend
> and its lessons for me (at least).
I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I
see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.
And if you want to work the word "vanity' into it, I would see it more as
the kind of vanity one would find in the Biblical Ecclesiastes, where, if
I remember it correct, it is said "All is vanity." The end of all of
man's attempts to understand living is frustration. Man is born to toil,
suffer and to die. Perhaps in Kerouac's reasoning: what does life really
amount to? His struggle to get to college as a football player, to leave
football and become a writer; cross the country numerous times, write
about it, but still see himself as misunderstood. What is there left to
do but drink himself to death? All his joy is so transitory in
relation to his despair. The same struggle he writes of in Big Sur (pg.
183) "O hell, I'm sick of life--If I had any guts I'd drown myself in
that tiresome water..." And that frustration about the vanity (futility)
of life combined with (pg. 191) "I feel a great ghastly hatred of myself
and everything."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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wrote _the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.
RACE --- wrote:
> Marie Countryman wrote:
> > Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
> > people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
> > sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
> > mc
>
> anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
> here? i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to
> check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
> to the other side of writer's block>
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:01:11 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: opening and closing books duluoz
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hey diane: my computer ate yr homework, or else i'd piggy back this onto
your post:(sorry dave i can't see any happy jack here - also in your
reading list, i'd put duluoz last of the list)
going to the text itself, in opening and closing books re penquin
edition:
p 23
"you kill yourself to get to the grave. especially you kill yourself to
get to the grave before you even die, and the name of that grave is
'success', th name of that grave is hullaballo boomboom horseshit.
p29
"for after all what is success? you kill yourself and a few others to
get to the top of your profession, so to speak, so that when you reach
middle age or a little later you can stay home and cultivate your own
garden in bliss: but by that time, because you've invented some kind of
better mousetrap, mobs come rushing across your garden and trampling all
your flowers. what's with that?
pg 262-3
"in fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to
understand that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from
the folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to
permissable fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began
to get a new vision of my own of a truer darkness which just
overshadowed all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and
hipsterism' and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to give
it.
in the purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim
ceiling while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,
beautiful and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with
raindew, how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture
is just there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall
off sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if
1967) see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their
eyes: i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and
dense with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like
say, swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in
'heaven' slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what
they were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an
alligator by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by
unconcerned. just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient
india and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly
too, gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not
jeweled, her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother
nature giving you birth and eating you back.
and i say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of
bestial creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good
intentions or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?
it is, face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,
jehovah, yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say
'now your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for
mercy anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in
today's Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the barn
even in ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont (sic)
listen, he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of
what they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic
sects but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'
that's not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human
father pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father, why
has thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is
copping out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole
problem and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing
that 'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue
morgue when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits there
in death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible
about the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the most
tearful and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."
_____
the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he
had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
humanity and spirituality.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Kerouac Gap Ad
To all you Madison Avenue Advertizers:
I think if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same
photo as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is
possible that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different
photos.
And I would think that the person who took the photo has the rights to
republish the photo. The photographer was Jerome Yulsman.
I don't know if you have to get permission from the estate to publish a
public figure, even though in this case I think that they (Gap corp) did.
By the way, you can still see the Bar sign if you go to a bar in the village
called Kettle of Fish, not far from NYU. The bar moved from its original
site, and the "bar" sign, which was in the alley, is now inside the bar.
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:05:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: god vs beat vs truth
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I think the reason I became an atheist is that I don't believe that there=
is
an afterlife, or that there is a 'god' that has any control over my life =
(or
any body else's life). I belief that my life is a (fortunate) biological
accident. (fortunate for me anyway)
And it is because of that belief, that I think that this Life is so much =
more
sacred because this is the one and only.=20
It also makes me more aware of the misery that is around me in the world =
(I
am happy to report that my personal life is relatively happy). I am sorry
that these people have to go through their one and only life in such desp=
air
or unhappiness (not necessarily due to their own fault).
As far as spirituality, I believe that each person has a soul, and that s=
ome
are better developed (due to personal choice, chance, dumb luck, circumst=
ance
of events, environment, family, friends, mistakes, successes, planning,
surprises, and the unexplained) and that you always have to strive. So ha=
ving
spirituality has no relationship to a belief in an afterlife.
You treat a dog like a dog, it becomes a dog. You treat a dog like a pers=
on,
it becomes a person. You treat a person like a dog, it becomes a dog. You
treat a person like a person, it becomes a person.
Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, t=
hen
slowly add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one o=
f
the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient =
at
the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to t=
oo
much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to ge=
t it
right. Some people stop caring about the recipe, think that they don't h=
ave
to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can =
be
more delicate than a souffl=E9.
Allen Ginsberg told me that he doesn't believe in god or an afterlife,
because he cannot believe in anything he hasn't experienced. He also said
that the term 'beat generation' was just a media creation.
that is the end of my philosophy,
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:21:05 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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>David Rhaesa wrote:
>
>> p.s. I'd mentioned that Jack Kerouac books were on my Xmas list for my
>> family and relatives and whatnot. But i'm interested, in the event that
>> i can collect close to the entire Legend of Duluoz, what is the "best"
>> order (excluding perhaps copyright dates) in which to read them? Any
>> suggestions?
>
>I make no claims that this is the "best" order, but this is how I line them
>up:
>
>Visions of Gerard
>Dr. Sax
>Maggie Cassidy
>Vanity of Duluoz
>The Town and the City
>On The Road
>Visions of Cody
>Lonesome Traveler
>Book of Blues
>The Subterraneans
>The Book of Dreams
>The Dharma Bums
>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>Old Angel Midnight
>Some of the Dharma
>Desolation Angels
>Mexico City Blues
>Tristessa
>Big Sur
>Trip Trap
>Satori in Paris
>
>Hoo boy, I am well aware I am opening a major can of worms here! This
>thread is going to be interesting....
>
>Jym
PIC, too.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:25:19 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Cannon Fodder (was Re: is this still beat-l?
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James Donahue wrote:
>
> On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
> > James Donahue wrote:
> > >
> > > well, i dont know of its worth as a topic, but heres a
> > > question:
> > > does beat studies fall into the same issues of
> > > canonizm that many in such field seek to open up, by
> > > highlighting only a certain few writers? (and maybe
> > > the list falls prey to this, as well?)
> > > kerouac, ginsberg, burroughs, snyder?
> > > and if this is the case, does anyone know why?
> > > jim donahue
> >
> > probably, imho, but Rinaldo's efforts on his Beat Web-site seem to be a
> > nice move to provide some hopeful flexibility. Go Rinaldo Go.
> >
> > david rhaesa
> > salina, Kansas
> >
> do have the html of this website?
> id rather go direct than have to swin through all the
> stuff that would come up on a keyword search.
i agree, i love the inclusiveness of the rinaldo's approach.
http://www.gpnet.it/rasa/beats.htm
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:59:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Forthcoming stuff...
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At 11:19 AM 11/22/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
>>
>> >and does anyone know what of jack's unpublished works that the sampas
>> >estate plans on releasing next??????
>> >
>> >cathy
>>
>>
>> >
>> The second volume of Selected Letters has been delayed until January 1999.
>> After that, a third volume of letters and the journals (in 3 volumes) will
>> be released and it is reasonable to think that other works will follow, such
>> as Kerouac's juvenalia works and also other archival material; notebooks,
>> more poems, etc. .... The authorized bio is in the works for a release in a
>> year that will start with a 2...meanwhile, Ellis Amburn has a bio coming out
>> June 1998. Also, Geffen Records has a release for early next year featuring
>> new recordings of Kerouac reading and a song written by him and performed by
>> Tom Waits ("Home I'll Never Be" I believe it is called)and Primus.
>> The Kerouac Quarterly
>>
>> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>>
>> (Almost updated daily for your edification and delight....P.
>> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
>> Henry David Thoreau
>>
>>
>
>
>
>thanks for the info, paul. i appreciate it
>
>
>cathy
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:40:56 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: god vs beat vs truth
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Attila Gyenis wrote:
> Life is one long recipe. You have to start with some basic ingredients, then
> slowly add the right ingredients at the right time. Unfortunately, one of
> the problems with what is called life is not adding the right ingredient at
> the right time, or adding the wrong ingredient, or adding too little to too
> much of the right ingredient. And in most cases it takes a lifetime to get it
> right. Some people stop caring about the recipe, think that they don't have
> to worry about it anymore, and all sorts of other shortcomings. Life can be
> more delicate than a souffli.
>
>
> that is the end of my philosophy,
> so it goes, Attila
Gee, Attila, I LIKE that, and I like your name, Attila Gyenis, too.
I think you've summed it up really well, and there's nothing I can add
that will enhance it... so, bon apetite!
s
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:32:30 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Still Life with Women by La Loca
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122205919.006a79f4@pop.pipeline.com>
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La Loca
Still Life with Women
"The Square Dance" above the four-poster
was your first. The four sisters,
dos a dos, giddy as the fiddler's lick,
before their lives happened.
You've got them childless
and kidding, eyes and hair
the family chestnut.
What's unseen is you, the oldest,
taller than a man, buck-toothed,
double left-footed, hulking
by the punch, painting.
Behind you is mother,
small and not all there,
one after another cracking
pistachios, retinas like departed
souls: a typical widow.
She beat her girls with switches
pulled from lenient firs.
Her fat, child-bearing hands
shell the favors to the last
and then fold, stub to stub,
across a stomach cultivated
from marchpane and babies.
She feels brown-haired again.
Under a floor-length hoop
her foot, once swept from ballrooms
by a towering groom, sleeps.
A le main left and your sisters skip
to Cincinnati with their callers.
"Good Night Ladies," and mother stands
you at her back. Help me, is the phrase.
Starting at the small, you undo
the places she can't reach.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:54:54 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
>
> I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I
> see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.
> DC
Diane,
your whole post is wonderful (as usual) and i'll try to get to the rest
of it on a day when i haven't used up so many of my ten posts. but
since you and marie didn't see where i was really coming from on this
reading, i thought i'd take a moment to try and clarify.
i'm not sure that it is a positive reading per se, as much as an absurd
reading with perhaps a positive lesson. i'll try to be a bit clearer.
the first positive i feel is the positiveness of identification. i
definitely felt the "been there, done that and survived it" feeling
while reading those words. certainly, the style in which JK describes
it is beyond me, but i definitely got the sense of -- yeah i've seen
life that dark before. fairly similar to the feeling i get when
listening to something like Hank Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could
Cry", it is absurd to find happiness in perhaps the saddest song ever
written, but it is there for me in knowing that some one has felt depths
of loneliness that when i feel them it seems i am the only one who could
ever have been there and done that. it is the idenitification with
another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but
also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever
felt emotionally. in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,
but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to the
human race. But in reading the words and identifying with them and the
feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race who
have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm on.
another level is the absurdity that this is the worst it could be. i
think what brought the most laughter to me was when the viciousness of
the emotions became associated with automobiles. not only is the irony
of it amazing as marie pointed out, but the absurdity of blaming it all
on a car just had me in stitches. and in a similar way as above, i find
myself flashing back on situations in which emotional depths in my life
become connected to particular symbols and those things or people can
hardly deserve to be the scapegoat of the emotions. I recall not so
long ago a 35 cents pair of cutoffs became the focus of an anger that
had lasted decades. Absurd. Just as in the automobile blaming.
And the fact that JK is able to write his way out of the anger is
probably the most beautifully positive experience of it. Not only does
the author let you know these feelings are/were experienced, but also in
the fact that you are reading the words the author has found a creative
means to survive and move past the moments of those emotions. Certainly
it may be a fleeting moment and emotions come back and haunt, but the
possibility of escaping and finding happiness of some sort in our
natural gifts provides some positive feelings (and perhaps this reading
is aided by the hints provided that the emotion does not last through
the entire book in another post on this thread).
And so it is a twisting. Probably not a conventional reading at all --
definitely absurd -- but sometimes the absurd reading provides some
breakthroughs that the conventional does not.
of course, this is still twisted, but probably a different twistedness
than the reading -- of course i promised that my third reading would be
completely different from the second.
so - i hope that others comment on the rest of your post and if not i'll
try to give it more attention in the coming days.
and thanks marie for providing more to look at.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:33:14 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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>_____
>the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
>who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he
>had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
>becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
>of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
>having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
>successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
>breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
>humanity and spirituality.
>mc
> I just want to ask, how well did you know Stella Kerouac? Paul. . .
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:35:34 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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ya got me there, paul! the admonition i have given others, hoisted by my own
petard, so to speak, going out of text to sweeping generalization.
but i stand by the rest of my points and quotes from the text, itself, and
my own love/hate relationship to this book, (as opposed to author - yet
snuck in the back door with cheap shot toward stella) and thankyou david
o'kansas for once again bringing your own wonderful sense of the absurd to
the novel as well. i'll take under advisement
and yes, dave: i caught the irony too. but also the darkness and no light at
the end of the tunnel of the book.
Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
> >_____
> >the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
> >who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man he
> >had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
> >becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
> >of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
> >having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
> >successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
> >breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
> >humanity and spirituality.
> >mc
> > I just want to ask, how well did you know Stella Kerouac? Paul. . .
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:55:16 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend. This
was not an accident. I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no
appearance by Jack himself, in character or not. I seem to recall that at
one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,
but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.
Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is
faulty on this. Anyone?
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:58:08 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend. This
>was not an accident. I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no
>appearance by Jack himself, in character or not. I seem to recall that at
>one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,
>but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.
>Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is
>faulty on this. Anyone?
>
>Jym
yes, I think neither Pic nor Town and City should be in the Duluoz Legend.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:02:31 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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I think that Lonesome Traveller has to be divuded up into its' consituent
stories. Some take place earlier and some later. For example the story
about the gun and how Duluoz carefully chose not to bring it to his friend
is earlier (around On the Road time) than October in the Railroad Earth
which would be early fifities after Visions of Cody but pre-Subterraneans.
Jym's original order
>>Visions of Gerard
>>Dr. Sax
>>Maggie Cassidy
>>Vanity of Duluoz
>>The Town and the City
>>On The Road
>>Visions of Cody
>>Lonesome Traveler
>>Book of Blues
>>The Subterraneans
>>The Book of Dreams
>>The Dharma Bums
>>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>>Old Angel Midnight
>>Some of the Dharma
>>Desolation Angels
>>Mexico City Blues
>>Tristessa
>>Big Sur
>>Trip Trap
>>Satori in Paris
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:24:26 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> I think neither Pic nor Town and City should be in the Duluoz Legend.
While I agree re: "Pic," I must respectfully demur re: "Town and the City."
Certainly "Town" is much more fictionalized than most of Jack's other
books, but if you look at the Martin brothers as essentially various
aspects of Jack's personality split into separate characters, plus of
course the inclusion of Ginsberg, Burroughs, and company as characters in
the City section, one can see how this book fits into the Legend.
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:46:42 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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It is this savage plight that plagues most biographies, the ability of the
"biographer" to capture the mind/thought of the person in question about who
he or she was thinking or their particular motive in any situation. Stella
Kerouac was one of the few supporters of Jack's work in Lowell and one of
the few women who he really opened up to what he was thinking both
personally and artistically. Check out the few letters in Selected Letters
for example....Sincerely, Paul...
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:47:50 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
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At 03:02 PM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I think that Lonesome Traveller has to be divuded up into its' consituent
>stories. Some take place earlier and some later. For example the story
>about the gun and how Duluoz carefully chose not to bring it to his friend
>is earlier (around On the Road time) than October in the Railroad Earth
>which would be early fifities after Visions of Cody but pre-Subterraneans.
>
>
>
>Jym's original order
>>>Visions of Gerard
>>>Dr. Sax
>>>Maggie Cassidy
>>>Vanity of Duluoz
>>>The Town and the City
>>>On The Road
>>>Visions of Cody
>>>Lonesome Traveler
>>>Book of Blues
>>>The Subterraneans
>>>The Book of Dreams
>>>The Dharma Bums
>>>The Scripture of the Golden Eternity
>>>Old Angel Midnight
>>>Some of the Dharma
>>>Desolation Angels
>>>Mexico City Blues
>>>Tristessa
>>>Big Sur
>>>Trip Trap
>>>Satori in Paris
>
Don't forget the short but nonetheless effective piece, Home At Christmas.
Paul...
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:10:28 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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> RACE wrote:
> it is the idenitification with
> another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but
> also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever
> felt emotionally. in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,
> but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to
> the
> human race. But in reading the words and identifying with them and the
> feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race
> who
> have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm
> on.
I can understand your sense of the positive here, to know that someone
else has been on the same paths and thought the same things. But it is
your sense of positiveness as a reader rather than that Jack was making a
positive statement.
> another level is the absurdity that this is the worst it could be. i
> think what brought the most laughter to me was when the viciousness of
> the emotions became associated with automobiles. not only is the irony
> of it amazing as marie pointed out, but the absurdity of blaming it all
> on a car just had me in stitches. and in a similar way as above, i
> find
> myself flashing back on situations in which emotional depths in my life
> become connected to particular symbols and those things or people can
> hardly deserve to be the scapegoat of the emotions. I recall not so
> long ago a 35 cents pair of cutoffs became the focus of an anger that
> had lasted decades. Absurd. Just as in the automobile blaming.
Now here I recognize and identify with your sense of the "absurdity" of
it all. However, to go back to the original passage that Marie posted, I
didn't feel his sense of anger was about the automobile but it was about
the fact the people no longer have a sense of destination. Time has
changed the human race but Jack has not changed with it, and he doesn't
see the changes as positive. He identified with the people that were
walking fast toward something, perhaps even driving fast toward
something. But now the strolling from the automobile parking lot has no
goal. People aren't doing what he wrote about in On the Road, where the
automobile was simply a new mechanism for a more spiritual striving. The
automobile is simply a convenience. But he is not angry at the
automobile but at the emptiness of what it means to be human.
> And the fact that JK is able to write his way out of the anger is
> probably the most beautifully positive experience of it. Not only does
> the author let you know these feelings are/were experienced, but also
> in
> the fact that you are reading the words the author has found a creative
> means to survive and move past the moments of those emotions.
> Certainly
> it may be a fleeting moment and emotions come back and haunt, but the
> possibility of escaping and finding happiness of some sort in our
> natural gifts provides some positive feelings (and perhaps this reading
> is aided by the hints provided that the emotion does not last through
> the entire book in another post on this thread).
I don't know yet what happens by the end of the book as I have never read
it completely through. But based on his life and his other books it's
hard to see the positive aspect of the writer working out his anger by
writing about it. I don't think he worked out his own anger at all, I
think it was there in every drink he took to deal with it right to the
end of his life. The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
personally didn't make the leap.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:36:45 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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> Marie Countryman wrote:
> pg 262-3
> "in fact i began to behink myself in that hospital. i began to
> understand that the city intellectuals of the world were divorced from
> the folkbody blood of the land and were just rotless fools, to
> permissable fools, who really didn't know how to go on living. I began
> to get a new vision of my own of a truer darkness which just
> overshadowed all this overlaid mental garbage of 'existentialism' 'and
> hipsterism' and bourgeois decadence' and whatever names you want to
> give
> it.
> in the purity of my hospital bed, weeks on end, i, staring at the dim
> ceiling while the poor men snored, saw that life is a brute creation,
> beautiful and cruel, that when you see a springtime bud covered with
> raindew, how can you believe it's beautiful when you know the moisture
> is just there to encourage the bud to flower out just so's it can fall
> off sere dead dry in the fall? all the contemporary LSD acid heads (if
> 1967) see the cruel beauty of the brute creation just by closing their
> eyes: i've seen it too since: a maniacal mandala circle all mosaic and
> dense with millions of cruel things and beautiful scenes goin on, like
> say, swiftly on one side i saw one night a choirmaster of some sort in
> 'heaven' slowly going Ooowith his mouth in awe at the beauty of what
> they were singing but right next to him is a pig being fed to an
> alligator by cruel attendants on a pier and people walking by
> unconcerned. just an example. Or that horrible mother kali of ancient
> india and its wisdom aeons with all her arms bejeweled, legs and belly
> too, gyrating insanely to eat back thru the only part of her that's not
> jeweled, her yoni or yin, everythings she's given birth to. Mother
> nature giving you birth and eating you back.
> and i say wars and social catastrophes arise from the cruel nature of
> bestial creation, and not from 'society' which after all has good
> intentions or it wouldn't be called 'society' wouold it?
> it is, face it , a mean heartless creation emanated by a God of wrath,
> jehovah, yaweth, no-name, who will pat you kindly on the head and say
> 'now your'e being good' when you pray, but when your're begging for
> mercy anyway say like a soldier hung by one leg from a tree trunk in
> today's Vietnam, when yaweh's really got you out in the back of the
> barn
> even in ordinary natureof fatal illness like my pa's then, he wont
> (sic)
> listen, he will whack away at your lil behind with the long stick of
> what they call 'original sin' in the theological christian dogmatic
> sects but what i call 'the original sacrifice.'
> that's not even worse, for god's sake , than watching your own human
> father pop die in real life when you really realize 'father, father,
> why
> has thou forsaken me?' for real, the man who gae you hopeful birth is
> copping out right before your eyes and leaves you flat with the whole
> problem and burden (your self) of his own foolishness in ever believing
> that 'life' was worth anything what it smells like down in the bellevue
> morgue when i had to identify franz'a body. your human father sits
> there
> in death before you almost satisfied. that's what's so sad and horrible
> about the 'god is dead' movement in contemporary religion, it's the
> most
> tearful and forlorn phiosophical idea of all time."
> _____
> the very fact that this book is a monologue of sorts to 'wifey' stella,
> who cared not at all for the author jack, but just for the broken man
> he
> had become, a refutation of what he had felt and lived and loved before
> becoming so broken on the wheel of fame and his own alcoholic drowning
> of self, this book reads to me as a dark negation.
> having gone to levi's web page re: big sur, in which he argues very
> successfully (in my mind) that his recording of his own nervous
> breakdown was the end of the youthful optimistic believer in self and
> humanity and spirituality.
> mc
Marie, thanks a lot for posting more passages. I agree with your
assessment of "a dark negation." What is also interesting in Kerouac is
that he so often grasps onto the despair of life in connection with
death. Like in the above passage, he is so pained by the
death-separation of his own father. And then he looks at his own death,
and concludes that there is really no point to doing anything because we
are all going to die. And to me, that is almost the opposite of the way
he describes the meaning of beat, to mean "beatific" not beaten. In the
above passage he is beaten, when he writes stuff like "his own
foolishness in ever believing that life was worth anything." The other
conclusion could and should be that life is worth something because it
ends in death. You should live now because you are going to die. Why
give up on life before death takes you. Also, if one is going to grab
onto the concept of original sin, a wrathful God, and the "Why or why
hast thou forsaken me attitude?," why not also grab onto the more
positive points of Catholicism? His own deep self-hatred seemed to
negate the positive points in almost everything.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:24:28 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000 from
<country@SOVER.NET>
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:00:41 +0000 Marie Countryman said:
>wrote _the medium is the message_ has great short cameo role in annie hall.
>
>RACE --- wrote:
>
>> Marie Countryman wrote:
>> > Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>> > people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>> > sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>> > mc
>>
>> anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>> here? i scanned the M's on my bookshelves and saw many but too lazy to
>> check publication dates <off to coffee gallery - perhaps to breakthrough
>> to the other side of writer's block>
>>
>> david rhaesa
>> salina, Kansas
Kerouac may have read "The Mechanical Bride" (1951). I think he would have bee
n in sympathy with McLuhan's views on the "American Mama's Boy."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:53:09 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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The big McLuhan book is Understanding Media, but Marshall
was a mirky explainer of his own stuff, which isn't about beats
anyway, but about media. His insight was that the FORM of the
medium was more important than the content that was on it. He
pointed out that certain types of people were more fit to perform
in one media than in another. Certain types of content were more
suitable for new media like Television, than other kinds of
content. He made other kinds of assertions like that, but his
books are hard to read. I read in the NYTimes Book
Review in the last week, a review of a book that explains
McLuhan better than the now-dead media maven did himself. I'll
dig it out for you if you're interested.
Mike Rice
At 10:14 AM 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>>>
>>> >Marie Countryman wrote:
>>> >> Look, furthermore, my anguish as I call it arises from the fact that
>>> >> people have changed so much, not only in the past five years for God's
>>> >> sake, or past ten years as McLuhasn says,
>>> >> mc
>>> >
>>> >anyone know which McLuhan (if any specific) he might be referring to
>>> >here?
>>>
>>> Marshall McCluhan (sp?) of the medium is the Message fame.
>>
>>well obviously, but is that what he's referencing or perhaps Gutenberg
>>Galaxy - i think way too early for Medium is the mAssage (but not
>>certain). I hadn't seen Marshall M. on the reading lists for Jack that
>>we'd been creating (so i suppose he might be added) - but i think the
>>basic themes of the kinds of changes MM is describing might really
>>frustrate a natural born writer.
>>
>
>You think a good boy like Jack wasn't reading Catholic World?
>
>I am sure he was familiar with McCluhan fro awhile from mcCluhans writings
>about Finnegans wake.
>
>(Which McCluhan book is specifically referred to in the opening allusion in
>Vanity of Duluoz (if any partiular one) --I don't know).
>
>
>>david rhaesa
>>salina, Kansas
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:49:42 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: A little too much of the Dharma
MIME-Version: 1.0
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wet toilet paper does the trick just fine.
> "The President of the United States, the big ministers of state, the great
> bishops and shmishops and big shots everywhere, down to the lowest factory
> worker with all his fierce pride, movie stars, executives and great engineers
> and presidents of law firms with silk shirts and neckties and great expensive
> traveling cases in which they place these various expensive English imported
> hair brushes and shaving gear and pomades and perfumes are all walking around
> with dirty azzoles! All you gotta do is simply wash yourself with soap and
> water! it hasnt occurred to anybody in America at all! it's one of the
> funniest things I've ever heard of! dont you think it's marvelous that we're
> being called filthy unwashed beatnikes but we're the only ones walking around
> with clean azzoles?" [sic all punctuation/capitalization]
>
> In only slight contrast, perfectly appropriate to a Zen master, Lin-Chi says:
>
> "In Buddhism there is no place for using effort. Just be ordinary and nothing
> special. Eat your food, move your bowels, pass water, and when you're tired
> go and lie down again. The ignorant will laugh at me, but the wise will
> understand.
>
>
> I always am reminded how deep was Jack's search (no pun) for spirituality
> when I read the many, many things he wrote about the care and feeding of his
> body while obeying his equally strong compulsion for self-destruction.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:28:53 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ordering of the Duluoz Legend
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Preston Whaley mentioned that I left "Pic" out of the Duluoz Legend. This
>was not an accident. I frankly don't see how it fits in, as there is no
>appearance by Jack himself, in character or not. I seem to recall that at
>one point Jack intended the main character to meet up with Sal and Dean,
>but that Memere encouraged him to edit that part out before publication.
>Of course, it has been years since I read "Pic," so maybe my memory is
>faulty on this. Anyone?
>
>Jym
Jym,
thankyou for stating your reasons. i typed way too soon. Haven't read Pic.
I'm (em)bare-assed. Is Pic written first person? JK once wrote in OR
he'd wished he were a negro. Since the book was begun in '51, I wonder if
there is a vicarious dimension to it? I'll have to read-see.
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:00:26 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: opening and closing books duluoz
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have done so since yr last post. again, thanks paul.
mc
Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
> It is this savage plight that plagues most biographies, the ability of the
> "biographer" to capture the mind/thought of the person in question about who
> he or she was thinking or their particular motive in any situation. Stella
> Kerouac was one of the few supporters of Jack's work in Lowell and one of
> the few women who he really opened up to what he was thinking both
> personally and artistically. Check out the few letters in Selected Letters
> for example....Sincerely, Paul...
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:11:51 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: beat-lives!!!
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even when caught with foot in mouth (hat off to paul) i am feeling
wonderful about beat-l again! so glad that the duluoz has prompted so
many thoughtful posts!
will finish my re-ead of big sur, am also thinking that dharma bums
makes a good contrast and am beginning to re-read it as well. many
thanks to all who responded! beat-l lives!
(and still am curious re: wsb and letters to ginsberg, interzone, naked
lunch: if the routines were separate, i still wonder if their seeds are
not to be found in the letters- wsb specialists, any takers?
thanks for a great, thought provoking day.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:30:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: SOTD @ St.Marks
In-Reply-To: <199711181828.KAA17029@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Is anyone going to the Some of the Dharma reading at St.Mark's on December
3rd? Let me know, I would love to meet people from the list. Thanks.
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:56:26 -0700
Reply-To: saras@sisna.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Straw <saras@SISNA.COM>
Organization: SaraGRAPHICS
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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Mike Rice wrote:
>
> The big McLuhan book is Understanding Media, but Marshall
> was a mirky explainer of his own stuff, which isn't about beats
> anyway, but about media. His insight was that the FORM of the
> medium was more important than the content that was on it. He
> pointed out that certain types of people were more fit to perform
> in one media than in another. Certain types of content were more
> suitable for new media like Television, than other kinds of
> content. He made other kinds of assertions like that, but his
> books are hard to read. I read in the NYTimes Book
> Review in the last week, a review of a book that explains
> McLuhan better than the now-dead media maven did himself. I'll
> dig it out for you if you're interested.
>
> Mike Rice
>
Mike, thanks for that explanation... You know, I tried and TRIED to
"get" that book, but it just seemed like gobbledygook when I read it,
back in '73. Of course, I was always stoned back then, but I like your
explanation better...
s
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:50:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: beat-lives!!!
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> even when caught with foot in mouth (hat off to paul) i am feeling
> wonderful about beat-l again! so glad that the duluoz has prompted so
> many thoughtful posts!
> will finish my re-ead of big sur, am also thinking that dharma bums
> makes a good contrast and am beginning to re-read it as well. many
> thanks to all who responded! beat-l lives!
> (and still am curious re: wsb and letters to ginsberg, interzone, naked
> lunch: if the routines were separate, i still wonder if their seeds are
> not to be found in the letters- wsb specialists, any takers?
> thanks for a great, thought provoking day.
> mc
beat-l has risen indeed.
i think there are some obvious connections between WSB letters and
writings. i recall specifically due to geography a routine in one of
the books about the connection with the President. In the letters the
same appears but the President is explicitly my neighbor to the east --
Eisenhower.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:52:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Pic
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Preston Whaley wrote:
> Is Pic written first person? JK once wrote in OR
> he'd wished he were a negro. Since the book was begun in '51, I wonder
if
> there is a vicarious dimension to it? I'll have to read-see.
Yes, in the persona of a ten year old black boy from the south.
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:20:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: is this still beat-l?
I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism
and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac
was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
talking about,
Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:27:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <971122150508_1247905025@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> I think if you look closely you will see that the the Gap ad is not the same
> photo as on Minor Characters by Joyce Johnson. Same roll of film, and it is
> possible that Joyce was airbrushed out in the the gap photo, but different
> photos.
What I know is from Joyce's mouth, and that's the same picture she cites.
There was quite a bit of other work done to it to play up certain parts of
the image over others, sharpen it, etc. The original, I seem to remember,
was much darker and a little duller, color too maybe. Probably switched
to black and white for mood and ease of editing, sharpness, etc.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:11:48 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD) Comparative Religions
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971122205919.006a79f4@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:25:58 -0400 (EDT)
>From: YokoMofo@aol.com
>Subject: Comparative Religions
>
>A short guide to comparative religions
>
> Taoism - Shit happens.
>
> Confucism - Confucius say, "Shit happens."
>
> Islamism - If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
>
> Buddhism - If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
>
> Roman Catholicism - Shit happens because you are bad.
>
> Calvinism - Shit happens becuase you don't work hard enough.
>
> Judaism - Why does this shit always happen to us?
>
> Lutheranism - If shit happens, have fiath, and it will stop happening.
>
> Presybterianism - If shit has to happen, let it happen to someone else.
>
> Zen - What is shit?
>
> Jesuitism - If shit happens and nobody hears it, did it really make a sound?
>
> Christian Science - If shit happesn, don't worry; it will go away on its
>own.
>
> Hedonism - When shit happens, enjoy it.
>
> Seventh Day Adventism - Shit happens every day but Saturday.
>
> Hare Krishna - Shit happens. Rama, rama, ohm, ohm.
>
> Kastafarianism - Let's smoke this shit.
>
> Hinduism - This shit happened before
>
> Mormonism - This shit happened before, and it's going to happen again.
>
> Atheism - Shit doesn't happen.
>
> Agnosticism - Maybe shit happens, and maybe it doesn't
>
> Stoicism - So shit happens Big deal. I can take it!!!
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 06:56:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Corso best? (was Re: is this still beat-l?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Anthony Celentano wrote:
>
> I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism
> and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
> discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
> pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
> this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac
> was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
> amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
> it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
> vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
> about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
> something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
> that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
> contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
> perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
> talking about,
>
> Anthony
what your talking about writing sounds wonderful. i hope to learn tons
from your posts. I especially like the idea of someone big into Corso
posting stuff. I'm still very weak in his department. I got MineField
on my last trip to Denver and have read some of it but not enough.
i don't know whether i'll agree with you on him being the best poet, but
i'll certainly enjoy the posts.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 07:11:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Diane Carter wrote:
> The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
> personally didn't make the leap.
> DC
This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my
initial post. I think it is a little more than that. It is the reader
meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able
to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the
anger. Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it
might be easy to fall into the same traps. At least for me :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 06:49:33 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
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I like your point here, David
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
>Diane Carter wrote:
>> The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
>> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
>> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
>> personally didn't make the leap.
>> DC
>
>This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my
>initial post. I think it is a little more than that. It is the reader
>meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able
>to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the
>anger. Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it
>might be easy to fall into the same traps. At least for me :)
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:56:04 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Corso best? (was Re: is this still beat-l?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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welcome aboard, anthony!
glad to have another person interested in discussing the beats and literature.
i'm
very fond of corso, _love elegaic feelings american_,and also the pranksterish
role he so often played among the crowd. there is a video (i'll get this
backward
i know) called fried shoes and something else-- beats at naropa, in which AG and
corso and others(gap in memory) which is much like a 'home movie' : beat poets
hang out at naropa, kidding around, reading bits and pieces, and then all go out
to train tracks to demonstrate against nuclear material being sent (oh boy, no
memory this morning but i'll trudge on and hope someone clarifies this for me -
irony would be that you've already seen it, anthony- any way, corso reads BOMB.
i
don't know if he is best poet, but sure is a very beat beat. (in beautific
sense)
now i'll muddle myself outta here. keep them posts and questions coming
mc
RACE --- wrote:
> Anthony Celentano wrote:
> >
> > I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and
atheism
> > and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
> > discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
> > pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
> > this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack
Kerouac
> > was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
> > amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
> > it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
> > vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
> > about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
> > something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
> > that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
> > contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
> > perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
> > talking about,
> >
> > Anthony
>
> what your talking about writing sounds wonderful. i hope to learn tons
> from your posts. I especially like the idea of someone big into Corso
> posting stuff. I'm still very weak in his department. I got MineField
> on my last trip to Denver and have read some of it but not enough.
>
> i don't know whether i'll agree with you on him being the best poet, but
> i'll certainly enjoy the posts.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:28:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> I like your point here, David
>
> leon
thanks. it sure is taking me a lot of posts to try and make sense of
myself <grin>.....after re-reading my posts on this thread, i think that
they made the most sense to me in reading this one first and then going
back the other stuff made more sense to me.
meeting the author (and characters as well) is a big part of any reading
experience for me. i haven't quite grasped what the experience of
reading is supposed to be about when it doesn't include that.
david
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 5:12 AM
> Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
>
> >Diane Carter wrote:
> >> The positive part is that readers can use what he wrote
> >> to make their own lives more positive, because most of the time his
> >> dispair is one mental step away from joy and positiveness but he
> >> personally didn't make the leap.
> >> DC
> >
> >This reader-based orientation is probably what i'm looking at more in my
> >initial post. I think it is a little more than that. It is the reader
> >meeting the author finding points of identification and then being able
> >to see from the distance of time and the medium the pathway around the
> >anger. Without JK's lovely accounting of these kinds of feelings, it
> >might be easy to fall into the same traps. At least for me :)
> >
> >david rhaesa
> >salina, Kansas
> >.-
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:32:38 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a poem by Carol Berge.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
OF ROOTS AND SOURCES by Carol Berge
(for d. levertov)
as when the person's bones and thoughts
show like branches, through the skin,
through the years, overlaid in muted or
fern tracery. or the voice remembered
when the page is read. it is the sense
of the thing to come, when discovering
this face that is not new, after all:
the idea opposite you which agrees
with these definitions you have become.
under spruce, the needles fall and fall,
the new in patterns resembling letters,
the past forming their base or the way
through which the fine sheets climb.
it is those moving near you, to remind
of roots and sources, of your own leaf.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:46:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go=
in
and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or=
so
had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in =
its
found state.=20
On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking abou=
t a
girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and th=
at
she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday=
,"
because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except fo=
r
that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy=
and
had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of =
his
legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my d=
ad
said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you
are."
But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever=
I
could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crash=
ing
into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writi=
ng,
and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
psychedelics).
Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, =
but
it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid =
you
don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a
white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to =
talk
to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I w=
as
never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever =
I'd
known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out c=
ouch
at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down =
the
sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If yo=
u'll
just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, =
I
promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep=
,
although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house pac=
ed
through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew.=
..
shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to adm=
it
what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talki=
ng
about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went=
to
church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate =
that
bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with u=
s. I
was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hel=
l, I
didn't need to.
So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's word=
s:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
------------------------------
And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people c=
an
be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden
once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Ther=
e's
a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind tha=
t
hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant expl=
ain
it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paran=
oia
they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi wh=
o
finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut a=
way
therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!.=
..
Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
-----------
...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over=
me
for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes fi=
ll
with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I=
wont go
wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I can
sleep."
As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of t=
he
required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had go=
t
hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was alw=
ays
eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unl=
ock
what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book =
of
Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because
they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me
though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack =
up,
but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, n=
ot
really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly dea=
th
than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:03:32 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
that's an amazing story. and yeah, i think you hit it right on the head, man,
that horrible place of knowing and fearing the knowing. knowing you can't go
back, frightened to go forward, not sure if there is a forward. scared to
live and scared to die. like Joyce's "general paralysis of the insane"...
only magnified by the horrors of all the demons in one's head...
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 1997 1:46 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: big surLiSizeD
There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go=
in
and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or=
so
had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in =
its
found state.=20
On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking abou=
t a
girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and th=
at
she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday=
,"
because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except fo=
r
that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy=
and
had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of =
his
legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my d=
ad
said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you
are."
But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever=
I
could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crash=
ing
into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writi=
ng,
and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
psychedelics).
Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, =
but
it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid =
you
don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a
white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to =
talk
to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I w=
as
never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever =
I'd
known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out c=
ouch
at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down =
the
sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If yo=
u'll
just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, =
I
promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep=
,
although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house pac=
ed
through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew.=
..
shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to adm=
it
what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talki=
ng
about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went=
to
church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate =
that
bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with u=
s. I
was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hel=
l, I
didn't need to.
So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's word=
s:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
------------------------------
And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people c=
an
be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden
once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Ther=
e's
a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind tha=
t
hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant expl=
ain
it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paran=
oia
they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi wh=
o
finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut a=
way
therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!.=
..
Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
-----------
...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over=
me
for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes fi=
ll
with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I=
wont go
wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I can
sleep."
As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of t=
he
required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had go=
t
hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was alw=
ays
eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unl=
ock
what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book =
of
Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because
they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me
though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack =
up,
but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, n=
ot
really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly dea=
th
than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:10:25 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
hello
from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. but you did have
a nice theory about jack's catalyst, and excellent insight. you can
check hyperreal, though. they always have the staight dope <g>
randall
> There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
> about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go in
> and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
> naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or so
> had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in its
> found state.
>
> On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking about a
> girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and that
> she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD someday,"
> because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except for
> that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone crazy and
> had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description of his
> legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my dad
> said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think you
> are."
>
> But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenever I
> could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
> anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and crashing
> into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his writing,
> and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
> psychedelics).
>
> Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
> friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so, but
> it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of acid you
> don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in a
> white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in to talk
> to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I was
> never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whatever I'd
> known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
>
> After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out couch
> at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
> sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down the
> sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If you'll
> just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, I
> promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asleep,
> although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house paced
> through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whew...
> shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to admit
> what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like talking
> about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
>
> It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and went to
> church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscate that
> bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with us. I
> was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. Hell, I
> didn't need to.
>
> So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's words:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------------------------
> And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people can
> be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Garden
> once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "There's
> a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind that
> hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant explain
> it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical paranoia
> they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
> universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi who
> finally had to have a lobotomy-Which sets me thinking how nice to cut away
> therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING!...
>
> Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> ...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
> always, thank you"-I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come over me
> for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
> emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me-My eyes fill
> with tears-"We'll all be saved-I wont even tell Dave Wain about it, I wont go
> wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough-now I can
> sleep."
>
> As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of the
> required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
> accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
> chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had got
> hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was always
> eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
>
> But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only unlock
> what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Book of
> Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal because
> they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved me
> though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jack up,
> but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state, not
> really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly death
> than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:37:04 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
randy royal wrote:
>
> hello
> from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. but you did have
> a nice theory about jack's catalyst, and excellent insight. you can
> check hyperreal, though. they always have the staight dope <g>
> randall
>
> > There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It was
> > about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could go in
> > and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
> > naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s or so
> > had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical in its
> > found state.
rye egot dates back much further than this. it is supposedly something
used in religious ritual in the ancient greek mystery religions.
according to some accounts, it was given to Socrates by the Oracle at
Delphi. such an account of Socrates' initiation provides quite a
different spin on all the writings about him.
i wonder how long i need to leave the rye bread out? :)
LSD is a synthesized hallucinogen which has qualities similar to rye
egot or mushrooms. while the comments that it is all there in one's
mind already and LSD just makes it apparent, my experience is that the
pace at which one experiences it is sped up incredibly. Some of the
ideas revealed over ten years ago just make sense in real-time. Other
notions have yet to be revealed.
The words I heard Allen Ginbserg use on some video attributing to JK
about LSD that "walking on water wasn't built in a day" is a fairly
accurate assessment in some ways of some of the experiences. never a
"bad" trip....but always baffling notions at the edges and the edges are
at the level that might not be built in several lifetimes but are pushed
into such a compressed time as to be potentially disabling when the
walking on water wears off. this is especially the case if one is in a
rush to learn the meaning of any particular visions.
also, everyone's brain chemistry is different and so some folks may have
experiences as "odd" without the addition of chemicals which it would
take others huge quantities of chemicals to imitate. just differences
we all have.
just a few notions from a disabled veteran of psychedelics and
psychotropics :)
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:52:46 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <347754AE.5C4@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> Diane Carter wrote:
> >
> >
> > I have some trouble seeing your more positive reading of the passage. I
> > see it once again as a very tired Kerouac immersed in his own sorrow.
> > DC
>
> Diane,
>
> your whole post is wonderful (as usual) and i'll try to get to the rest
> of it on a day when i haven't used up so many of my ten posts. but
> since you and marie didn't see where i was really coming from on this
> reading, i thought i'd take a moment to try and clarify.
>
> i'm not sure that it is a positive reading per se, as much as an absurd
> reading with perhaps a positive lesson. i'll try to be a bit clearer.
>
> the first positive i feel is the positiveness of identification. i
> definitely felt the "been there, done that and survived it" feeling
> while reading those words. certainly, the style in which JK describes
> it is beyond me, but i definitely got the sense of -- yeah i've seen
> life that dark before. fairly similar to the feeling i get when
> listening to something like Hank Williams' "I'm So Lonesome I Could
> Cry", it is absurd to find happiness in perhaps the saddest song ever
> written, but it is there for me in knowing that some one has felt depths
> of loneliness that when i feel them it seems i am the only one who could
> ever have been there and done that. it is the idenitification with
> another's suffering as both showing that your suffering is real, but
> also that your suffering might not be the worst thing anyone has ever
> felt emotionally. in the passage from JK, it is not just a loneliness,
> but an anger at the alien-ness of feeling like one doesn't belong to the
> human race. But in reading the words and identifying with them and the
> feelings behind them, I know that there are people in the human race who
> have been where i've been and know the paths to some extent that i'm on.
>
David,
I agree with you. Kerouac seems to have gotten some sense of relief (or
release) by articulating his Rubaiyat-like disgruntlement with the human
condition. Remember Sal Paradise after seeing _Fidelio_(?) in _On the
Road_: he goes around chirping "What gloom!"
Cordially,
Mike Skau
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:55:32 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How can I myself offer any analysis of Big Sur after yr incredible
heartfelt post? That was one of the best postings to the list that I've
read in my year or so on beat-l. It's a keeper.
Thanks,
Adrien
You_Be Fine wrote:
>=20
> There was a big photo spread in LOOK magazine, 1964, and I was 13. It w=
as
> about LSD and the various places in San Francisco where a person could =
go in
> and trip, and the origins of the drug, which was discovered existing
> naturally in rye ergot, after an entire village in France in the 1940s =
or so
> had eaten tainted bread and gone mad from the effects of the chemical i=
n its
> found state.
>=20
> On the way to church one Sunday morning, my dad and mom were talking ab=
out a
> girl who'd run away from home to go be a beatnik in San Francisco, and =
that
> she was "taking the LSD." And I announced, "I'm going to take LSD somed=
ay,"
> because it wasn't illegal yet and tripping sounded really cool, except =
for
> that part in the magazine story where one of the Frenchmen had gone cra=
zy and
> had jumped out of a building, and I remember the horrible description o=
f his
> legs "telescoping into his body" click click click click ugh.... and my=
dad
> said, "No you're not going to do that, and you're crazy if you think yo=
u
> are."
>=20
> But I was crazy and a few years later became a regular acidhead, whenev=
er I
> could afford the buck-fifty to three bucks per hit, whenever anyone had
> anything good, and spent my weekends dropping, rushing, peaking and cra=
shing
> into the grunge state (grunge being a word jack used in some of his wri=
ting,
> and the word we used to describe that icky way we felt coming down from
> psychedelics).
>=20
> Last time I dropped was in 1970, Valentine's Day, with a whole bunch of
> friends, and we all flipped out big time for the next dozen hours or so=
, but
> it seemed like much longer. Everyone was sure this was "the kind of aci=
d you
> don't come back from." I remember seeing a vision of myself sitting in =
a
> white room in a straitjacket, lashed to a chair, my parents coming in t=
o talk
> to me and me not being able to explain what had happened, but knowing I=
was
> never going to come down, I was never going to have a life, and whateve=
r I'd
> known before I'd never know again. They were crying and praying over me.
>=20
> After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out=
couch
> at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
> sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling dow=
n the
> sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If =
you'll
> just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again=
, I
> promise...." I prayed for hours and didn't even notice when I fell asle=
ep,
> although I remember seeing the sun rise, as other people in the house p=
aced
> through the kitchen into the living room, saying "Whew... jesus.... whe=
w...
> shit...." and breathing hard but too afraid to explain, too afraid to a=
dmit
> what was going on, too afraid to admit how afraid we all were, like tal=
king
> about it would cause everyone in the world to flip out.
>=20
> It was Sunday morning and I awoke, feeling destroyed, but I rose and we=
nt to
> church, and confessed and enlisted confederates to help me go confiscat=
e that
> bad acid from others who'd bought it but hadn't dropped that night with=
us. I
> was amazed to be alive and scared shitless. I never took drugs again. H=
ell, I
> didn't need to.
>=20
> So I'm reading Big Sur and thinking about 1970, after reading jack's wo=
rds:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> ------------------------------
> And I realize the unbearable anguish of insanity: how uninformed people=
can
> be thinking insane people are "happy," O God, in fact it was Irwin Gard=
en
> once warned me not to think the madhouses are full of "happy nuts," "Th=
ere's
> a tightening around the head that hurts, there's a terror of the mind t=
hat
> hurts even more, they're so unhappy and especially because they cant ex=
plain
> it to anybody or reach out and be helped through all the hysterical par=
anoia
> they are really suffering more than anyone in the world and I think the
> universe in fact," and Iriwn knew this from observing his mother Naomi =
who
> finally had to have a lobotomy=97Which sets me thinking how nice to cut=
away
> therefore all that agony in my forehead and STOP IT! STOP THAT BABBLING=
!...
>=20
> Poor jackie, he tries to get a grip, calling out to God:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
> -----------
> ...I say through all the noise of the voices "I'm with you, Jesus, for
> always, thank you"=97I lie there in cold sweat wondering what's come ov=
er me
> for years my Buddhist studies and pipesmoking assured meditations on
> emptiness and all of a sudden the Cross is manifested to me=97My eyes =
fill
> with tears=97"We'll all be saved=97I wont even tell Dave Wain about it,=
I wont go
> wake him up down there and scare him, he'll know soon enough=97now I ca=
n
> sleep."
>=20
> As I read this book I remembered someone once telling me it was part of=
the
> required reading in some college-level psych courses, illustrating so
> accurately a certain type of descent into madness that comes from some
> chemical imbalance in the brain. And I was wondering if maybe jack had =
got
> hold of some bad rye bread just before he went to the cabin... he was a=
lways
> eating free and found bread and crowing about how much money he saved.
>=20
> But the catalyst is unimportant, because mind-altering chemicals only u=
nlock
> what's already in the brain, and when I read Big Sur now I think of Boo=
k of
> Dreams, and my own dreams, unexpressed except in my dream journal becau=
se
> they reveal too much about me and my twisted mind, and God never saved =
me
> though I saved God, and the sea that took Joyce didn't kindly sweep jac=
k up,
> but he went on for 9 more years after Big Sur in this vulnerable state,=
not
> really writing anymore but not being mad, either, dying a more grisly d=
eath
> than he ever feared that night in Big Sur.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:18:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD
Date: 97-11-23 18:12:34 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: randyr@southeast.net
In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:
<< from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. >>
yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I
do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,
as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,
penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri
dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:14:52 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: from Vanity of Duluoz
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There's a really interesting passage I found (I don't know the page
number as not having the book I'm reading the selections that are in The
Portable Kerouac) in Book V, where it seems like it might be the first
time that Jack has really looked at his own life in terms of the greater
universe. This takes place the summer before his sophomore year at
Columbia where he is still playing football and not yet a writer.
"One night my cousin Blanche came to the house and sat in the kitchen
talking to Ma among the packed boxes. I sat on the porch outside and
leaned way back with feet on rail and gazed at the stars for the first
time in my life. A clear August night, the stars, the Milky Way, the
whole works clear. I stared and stared till they stared back at me.
Where the hell was I and what was all this?
I went into the parlour and sat down in my father's old deep easy
chair and fell into the wildest daydream of my life. This is important
and this is the key to the story, wifey dear:
[I'm leaving out the entire daydream as it is quite long but the gist of
it is in the paragraph below where he is a champion in just about any
activity he undertakes]
I'm the world's heavyweight boxing champion, the greatest writer,
the world's champ miler, Rose Bowl and (pro-bound with New York Giants
football non pareil) now offered every job on every paper in New York,
and what else? Tennis anyone?
I woke up from this daydream suddenly realizing that all I had to
do was go back on the porch and look at the stars again, which I did, and
they still just stared at me blankly.
In other words I suddenly realized that all my ambitions, no
matter how they came out, and of course as you can see fom the preceding
narrative, they came out fairly ordinary, it wouldnt matter anyway in the
intervening space between human breathings and the 'sigh of the happy
stars,' so to speak, to quote Thoreau again.
It just didn't matter what I did, anytime, anywhere, with anyone;
life is funny like I said.
I suddenly realized we were all crazy and had nothing to work for
except the next meal and the next good sleep.
O God in the Heavens, what a fumbling, hard-hanging, goof world
it is, that people actually think they can gain anything from either
this, or that, or thissa, or thatta, and in so doing, corrupt their
sacred graves in the name of sacred-grave corruption."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:08:44 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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david and all:
you'd know better than i thru experience. and with stuff as sticky
like this, i think i'd like to leave it that way.
randy
> ---------------------
> Forwarded message:
> Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD
> Date: 97-11-23 18:12:34 EST
> From: AngelMindz
> To: randyr@southeast.net
>
> In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:
>
> << from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. >>
>
> yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I
> do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,
> as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,
> penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri
> dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:36:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
Comments: To: race@midusa.net
Hey Beat-list have any of you tried Toad Venom?
T.V.
"I've got a new drug."
Fritz has a new drug.
"Toad venom wanna smoke some?"
"What does it do?"
"Mild high, acid, hash, coke buzz."
"Totally toadular."
Nee deep, Nee deep.
We drive to the beach,
Climb down cliffs.
Fritz loads the pipe,
Flaky wax substance.
Take a hit,
Rolling, ground.
Kids on the cliff shout,
"Hey man, smoke that bud up here dude."
Fritz takes a hit. Now we are both rolling,
I yell back to them,
"TOAD VENOM!!"
Frog high, web brain.
Buddha bug tongue buzz.
Old pond splashes in mind.
Close eyes.
Tune to insects,
Scope, sight, snatch.
Toad Mind, Toad Soul, Wart Love!!
Hallucinaphibians in desert,
Arizona evenings, web foot summer.
Glands in the backs of their necks,
defense against being bit.
Squeeze, pop, juicy, squirt,
On Pyrex dish.
Let it dry over night.
Scrape, scrape.
Fly paper lily pad, LEAP!
Nee deep, Nee deep, Nee Deep.
Yrs,
Gary Mex Glazner
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:42:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dave Redfern <mushroom@INTERLOG.COM>
Subject: Big Sur / LSD
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LSD was discovered in 1938 in a Sandoz Lab in Basil Switzerland, the 25th in
a series of ergot derivatives, thus the name LSD25. Dr Hofman, the
scientist who discovered it, shelfed it until 1943, when shortly after the
Manhatten Project's first nuclear chain reaction, he returned to it and
accidently absorbed some through his fingertips. Some suggest the two
events were cosmiclly linked.
The last documented case of rye ergot poisoning, sometimes referred to as St
Anthony's Fire, occured in Pont-Saint-Esprit, France in 1951. Some deaths
did occur.
The ancient greeks had an ergot laced drink called Kykeon that they used in
an annual pagan ritual which I believe was called the "Elusinian Mysteries."
D.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:59:05 GMT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Christopher M. Dumond" <cmdumond@EHC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
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Why am I prolonging this?
I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes with the
audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
Just my two cents
Chris
"I just keep on running faster, chasing the happily I am ever after..."
~Lyle Lovett
Visit Chris's Page at http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2124
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:46:52 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kris Kurrus <kurrus@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD
In-Reply-To: <971123181851_207236322@mrin45.mail.aol.com>
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At 11:18 PM 11/23/97 +0000, you wrote:
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD
>Date: 97-11-23 18:12:34 EST
>From: AngelMindz
>To: randyr@southeast.net
>
>In a message dated 97-11-23 18:06:00 EST, randy wrote:
>
><< from what i read, LSD was created by a swiss scientist by accident in
> a labratory in the fifties. it is synthetic though. >>
>
>yeah, i think this is true, in terms of isolating the chemical itself. But I
>do believe the magazine story (early Sixties notwithstanding) was accurate,
>as well, since most chemical substances (including that good old mold,
>penicillin) occur naturally somewhere in our ecosystem, not just in a petri
>dish. and there are no accidents; just discoveries.
>
LSD as we know it, or know of it, DOES NOT exist naturally...
OK... I have just been reading posts here for the last few days or so (as i
am doing a graduate study on the "beat generation writiers"-- and whatever
that vague term may be construed to mean)
as an old acidhead myself (and as a somewhat historically minded writer) I
have some insights into the LSD phenomenon (as well as a little historical
perspective)....
OK... so here goes... the indole, LSD (that is d-Lysergic Acid
Diethylamide or LysergSaureDiethylamid in it original German) was first
synthesized in Basil, Switzerland, yes, Sandoz labs (1938-43) by a Dr.
Albert Hoffman (I remember doing paper hits with his portrait on them in
the 70s, hehehe), but did not make into biochemical psychiatry until after
April 16, 1943 (the day Dr Albert accidentally dosed himself) and it was
many years later that this research was released to the medical community
at large (Zurich 1947, first scientific paper published, 1949 first North
American Study, 1953 Sandoz applies to the FDA, and SIMULTANEOUSLY begins
distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists
around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....
So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,
ergot goes way back, in France around 945AD to 1600AD it was known as
"Saint Anthony's Fire" (officially around 1100AD) and was/is quite lethal,
causing muscle spasms, convulsions, and various disturbances of the
consciousness and thinking (version #1). Another version of ergotism
(Version #2 same fungus, different deal) causes limbs to become swollen and
violent burning pain (i.e. the "Fire" of our saint?) which moves rapidly
into gangrene because the ergot causes a contraction of the blood vessels,
hence cutting of blood flow to the limbs... ohh, nasty stuff huh?
So anyway, it is important to note that ergot has Lysergic Acid in it (thus
its property as a hallucinogen) and it was work with this fungus (Claviceps
purpurea) and its alkaloids that lead Dr. Hoffman to the discovery of LSD...
Outside of the beats and Jack's possible ingestion of an ergot dose (which
doesn't seem likely, to me, due to the harsh side effects)... it is
interesting to note (if you are into the Salem witch trials, that I have
read a couple great articles that tie convulsive ergotism (version #1) to
the eight "possesed" girls that started all that hullaballu back in
1692.... oh well, probably not
anyhow, I hope this clears up a little about the possibility of Jack's
exposurem to ergotism during the Big Sur era..... but then, who knows.....
psychedelically yours,
kris kurrus
spokane, washington
and (interestingly, only symptomatic treatment exists even today)....
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:27:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY
MIME-Version: 1.0
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x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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FIRST OF ALL REMEMBER IN ALL HORROR STORIES YOU HEAR, SET AND SETTING PLAY A
MAJOR ROLE IN SAFETY AND ENHANCEMENT OF THE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE.
LSD 25 was an accidental discovery, yes, but by hoffman who was investigating
all
uses of ergot; not the ergot that contaminates rye see. many other strains. the
bicycle trip home is a classic and is to be found in many of the books listed
below. many books below are out of print. the more scholarly ones were used in
classes exploring the psychedelic experience approx 1966-73, at M.I.T. (one of
co
authors below was an M.I.T. faculty member.
best sources of info relating to discovery and development of lsd as well as
beats/sixties cross over:
*jay stevens : Storming Heaven LSD and the american dream; harper&row/perennial
library, 1988
best source of cia involement and results:
martin a. lee&bruce shlain: ACID DREAMS the complete social history of LSD: the
CIA, the sixties and beyond;
grove pressNY1985
best source of knowledge of all naturally occuring psychedelics:
PLANTS OF THE GODS / albert hofmann and schultes/healing arts press rochester
vt1992
LSD MY PROBLEM CHILD: Albert Hoffman
other resources
PSYCHEDELICS: the uses and implications of halluciongenic drugs/ bernard Asson
and huphrey osmond:anchor books; double day anchor book and company 1970
scholarly studies, both professors
ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS: ed. charles t. tart/double day anchor
presscirca
1970 - scholarly research including lsd both professors
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:33:41 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In most recounts of JK and lsd, by the principals who dosed him,
including leary, the poop was he was acutely uncomfortable with the
experience.
it's in one or two of the books i cited.
storming heaven has account of AG and Peter O's first trip in which they
came bursting exuberantly into leary's living room stark naked wanting
to call the president and kruschev to tell them of how they could end
the cold war....
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:58:19 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> In most recounts of JK and lsd, by the principals who dosed him,
> including leary, the poop was he was acutely uncomfortable with the
> experience.
> it's in one or two of the books i cited.
> storming heaven has account of AG and Peter O's first trip in which they
> came bursting exuberantly into leary's living room stark naked wanting
> to call the president and kruschev to tell them of how they could end
> the cold war....
> mc
burroughs letters suggest that he was less than fond of the experience
as well. but in junkie he refers to having hallucinations as a child
naturally so perhaps his particular chemical makeup wasn't well suited
to this type of chemical change. from what i understand about the
Doctor Sax character and some of the other early kerouac tales, it seems
as though he had a very very active imagination that reached the edges
from early on. so the chemical stimulations from hallucinogenics might
not make sense -- and the understanding of the desire for alcohol to
sedate the negations to which his mind leapt so easily later is also
understandable.
perhaps some form of speed (which provides focus as well as lift - hence
its use on attention-deficit difficulties) was the natural chemical for
Jack. so much of what is considered his kicks and joy seem to come in
periods associated with this chemical use.
does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in
the past ten years or so? did he move strictly to alcohol? when did he
slow on stimulants? are there accounts of what his attitude towards
stimulants were in the later years?
wondering in kansas. soon to head for turkey in Denver.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:01:04 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: oops typo Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in
> the past ten years or so? did he move strictly to alcohol? when did he
> slow on stimulants? are there accounts of what his attitude towards
> stimulants were in the later years?
>
> wondering in kansas. soon to head for turkey in Denver.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
i meant to say "last" ten years, not "past" ten years. though if
anybody on the list has heard from Jack in the past ten years concerning
chemicals or other matters i'd love to hear that too!!!!!
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:52:49 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: ginsberg and GAP
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I found this on the net during one of my intensive Ginsberg
searches. I thought it's a bit relevant to the Kerouac GAP ad
discussion of last week.
Maggie
Allen Ginsberg wears Khakis
I saw it in a GAP ad
in Interview Magazine.
Did someone from the public
relations department at the GAP
call up Allen Ginsberg
and say:
"Picture it --
you're sitting on the
floor surrounded by classic books (we'll even let you choose the
authors)
There's an antique typewriter
sitting in front of you.
You're wearing
the traditional
uniform of beatnik
poets -- literary spectacles,
a classic white T-,
a rugged
tweed jacket, and of course,
khaki pants.
On the bottom of the page,
we see
in elegant black
letters, ALLEN GINSBERG WEARS KHAKIS.
So what do ya think, Allen?"
__________________________________________________________________
Sent by Yahoo! Mail. Get your free e-mail at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:02:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
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In a message dated 97-11-23 21:13:42 EST, Kris wrote:
<< distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists
around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....
=20
So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,
>>
I didn't really intend to imply (or even hypothesize) that jack had gotte=
n
hold of some naturally occurring LSD (necessarily). When I read Big Sur o=
ver
again, I was simply struck by how similar his madness was to acid & mesca=
line
trips I took in the Sixties and finally, in 1970. Seems to me there must =
have
been a catlyst that set him off. I've heard people say it was the DTs, an=
d I
don't know too much about those, but I'm betting bummers, DTs and Jeffers=
on
Airplane flights all come out of the same place, and are activated throug=
h
the hypothalmus gland.
But I'd love to hear other accounts of experiences similar to that jack w=
rote
about in Big Sur, and know how they came about. I've seen two schizophren=
ic
breakdowns, but they didn't heal right up like jack's did, and the worst =
of
his delusions seemed to take place over a period of time that was less th=
an
24 hours long.
On the other hand, like Ferlinghetti (Monsanto) keeps telling jack in the
book, "Don't think too much... you think too much." And jack himself wrot=
e
about that:
I GO WALKING TOWARDS Mien Mo mountain in the moon illuminated August nigh=
t,
see gorgeous misty mountains rising the horizon and like saying to me "Yo=
u
dont have to torture your consciousness with endless thinking" so I sit i=
n
the sand and look inward=85 "Man is a busy little animal, a nice little a=
nimal,
his thoughts about everything dont amount to shit."
I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=
ages
in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=
a
book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=
e
story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.
I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =
be
aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=
en
he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=
l as
a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=
olks
can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:
BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except
Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather
strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=
on
of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I
conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =
from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
But he saw his weaknesses:
WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=
the
soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a
fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
And maybe drugs were getting to him:
BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=
=92ve
long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97
Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:
=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =
on
dusky streets and think how awful I was in this development everybody sai=
d
was supposed to be "my life" and "their lives." =96Not so much that I=92m=
a
drunkard that I feel guilty about but that others who occupy this plane o=
f
"life on earth" with me don=92t feel guilty at all=97
I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=
th
LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=
th
what he saw, and I add this tiny bit of theory: I think there were so few
peers in his world who could ever reach him, because he was on a plane pe=
ople
could witness but never visit. I know people like that. They just can't b=
e
reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family=
,
not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god=
or
creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:17:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY
In-Reply-To: <199711240129.UAA21757@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Potato Chips were also an accidental discovery, jus thought youd like to
know...
On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> FIRST OF ALL REMEMBER IN ALL HORROR STORIES YOU HEAR, SET AND SETTING PLAY A
> MAJOR ROLE IN SAFETY AND ENHANCEMENT OF THE PSYCHEDELIC EXPERIENCE.
> LSD 25 was an accidental discovery, yes, but by hoffman who was investigating
> all
> uses of ergot; not the ergot that contaminates rye see. many other strains.
the
> bicycle trip home is a classic and is to be found in many of the books listed
> below. many books below are out of print. the more scholarly ones were used in
> classes exploring the psychedelic experience approx 1966-73, at M.I.T. (one of
> co
> authors below was an M.I.T. faculty member.
>
> best sources of info relating to discovery and development of lsd as well as
> beats/sixties cross over:
> *jay stevens : Storming Heaven LSD and the american dream;
harper&row/perennial
> library, 1988
>
> best source of cia involement and results:
> martin a. lee&bruce shlain: ACID DREAMS the complete social history of LSD:
the
> CIA, the sixties and beyond;
> grove pressNY1985
>
> best source of knowledge of all naturally occuring psychedelics:
> PLANTS OF THE GODS / albert hofmann and schultes/healing arts press rochester
> vt1992
>
> LSD MY PROBLEM CHILD: Albert Hoffman
>
> other resources
> PSYCHEDELICS: the uses and implications of halluciongenic drugs/ bernard Asson
> and huphrey osmond:anchor books; double day anchor book and company 1970
> scholarly studies, both professors
>
> ALTERED STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS: ed. charles t. tart/double day anchor
> presscirca
> 1970 - scholarly research including lsd both professors
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:40:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Why am I prolonging this?
>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
>with the
>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
thought when i saw the ad too.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:43:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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You_Be Fine wrote:
> I know people like that. They just can't be
> reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,
> not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or
> creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
> gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:55:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: on the other hand (was Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> You_Be Fine wrote:
> > I know people like that. They just can't be
> > reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,
> > not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or
> > creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
> > gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
>
> i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
> rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
<so now i'm talking to myself on the Listserve!!!>
(another typo BTW -- should have been "past" year not "same" year)
on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
means this is the proper path for most of us. This is part of why i
think that reading his work as a means of avoiding self-destructiveness
(as suggested in the Vanity threads) can be very important.
but then again - what do i know ---- i've been threw more crackups than
Jack and definitely had my own self-destructive phase so perhaps i
should not be preachy --- if i was being preachy --
i'll go back to talking to myself in private now..... :)
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:03:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <3478F7EE.3D0A@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of
essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that
I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny
books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good
Blonde? Thanks.
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:18:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> You_Be Fine wrote:
> > I know people like that. They just can't be
> > reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family,
> > not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god or
> > creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
> > gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
>
> i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
> rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
I feel some anger at jack, it is probably the same anger when you see
someone choose "not to" It is a tiring business this life and i am
impatient and frustrated when a gift and vision is drowned in poison. I
believe that jack drowned his gift in alcohol and killed it. I don't
know why and i sure haven't walked in those shoes, maybe the same gift
that let him feel and see things as he did, dealt him the terror of his
life being out of control. Maybe some of the terror that is life burnt
him and so he drank himself to death. but still, i am angry that he
drank himself to death.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:24:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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RACE --- wrote:
<snip>
perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
Jack gave everything he had in his soul to give. He then was truly a "homeless"
man in that he was on this planet past his time. He wrote it all. With Thomas
Wolfe, they told the story of 20th Century America. They both then left as it
was
time to go. Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.
He
couldn't make the change. That's cool. As Neil Young said, "Better to burn
out,
than to fade away."
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:27:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: What she said
Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.solidsolutions.com>,
byrdmaniax <byrdmaniax@waxing-eloquent.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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My eight year old daughter has not asked about Santa so she hasn't been
told. But, she is thinking about this Myth. So, tonight she says to
her mother. "You know those guys at the mall. They take the things
that you tell them, then they email them back to Santa. That way, Santa
knows what you want."
Now that is a good edition to the American myth. Email to Santa from
how many malls and how many messages. No wonder the backbone is being
overloaded! I mean, think of the flow around 9:00 in each time zone!
:-)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:31:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
> I feel some anger at jack, it is probably the same anger when you see
> someone choose "not to" It is a tiring business this life and i am
> impatient and frustrated when a gift and vision is drowned in poison. I
> believe that jack drowned his gift in alcohol and killed it. I don't
> know why and i sure haven't walked in those shoes, maybe the same gift
> that let him feel and see things as he did, dealt him the terror of his
> life being out of control. Maybe some of the terror that is life burnt
> him and so he drank himself to death. but still, i am angry that he
> drank himself to death.
> patricia
Patricia
I did not mean to sanction what Jack did. My point was that once he knew that
his
purpose as a "writer" had been manifest, he could not adjust to a new role. I
think
it is tragic that he lacked the courage to do it. It's just that some choose to
leave once they "do it." I have always admired WSB's courage for hanging tough
no
matter what. I wish that Jack had more of that. But he didn't. So, it is
better
that he is gone. And he did give us all of his heart and soul, even if he
couldn't
do it in real life relationships.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:15:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-24 00:07:24 EST, Bentz wrote:
<< Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.
He couldn't make the change. That's cool. >>
Now this I don't agree with. I think jack was so passive... the observer of
all the ones who HAD the fire in their guts. But I know he became more
passive and more timid as he grew older, as so many of us do. Sometimes it's
hard to look back on exploits of one's salad days and believe we really
survived it all.
jack had a disease (at least one). He suffered the progressive disease of
alcoholism. That takes a tremendous physical toll, and sometimes I think he
was just living on psychotic energy or something to get from day to day. I
don't know. I'm no expert. I can only speak from personal experience and
death certificates.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:27:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: big surLiSizeD without anger
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit
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In a message dated 97-11-24 00:08:13 EST, you write:
<<=20
on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
means this is the proper path for most of us. >>
Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and
self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The
self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it connec=
ted
to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an
artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel, =
a
vessel, a drunk. To be angry at him is understandable, at a distance from
whence we view it today. But if only we had seen him up close... I don't
think anyone would have wasted their anger on him. Again, in his words:
"WELL I DONT KNOW all those big theories about how everything should be
goddamit all I know it that I=92m a helpless hunk of horse manure looking=
in
your eye saying Help me"=97
Shit, why am I explaining? It's all there, in Big Sur, and it only takes =
a
Saturday to read it.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:23:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Slattey <08SLATTERY@CUA.EDU>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Unsubsribe beat list
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:58:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
In-Reply-To: <971123164607_1483088457@mrin86.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
AngelMindz@AOL.COM wrote:
>After that vision, lying wide awake staring into darkness on a fold-out couch
>at a friend's house, my little sister sleeping peacefully beside me, my
>sister who'd been smart enough not to drop that acid, tears rolling down the
>sides of my eyes into my ears, I prayed to god, prayed and prayed, "If you'll
>just let me come down from this, I promise, I'll never take drugs again, I
>promise...."
Anyone remember that great country song of 40 or so years ago:
"I got tears in my ears from layin' on my back 'n crying my heart out over
you."
j grant
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:05:24 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
man have you hit that, except that i think he still was on his path and just
had to ride it out. he got what he needed to learn that time around, and
somehow i feel like maybe he got far enough along that he has no need to
revisit this plane.
JK was definitely more of the spiritual realm than of this one, IMHO, from his
early childhood.
ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 1997 7:02 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-23 21:13:42 EST, Kris wrote:
<< distributing large quantinities of this drug to "qualified" scientists
around the world).... anyhow, after that all hell broke loose.....
=20
So, back to JACK and ergot (and ergotism).... as someone said earlier,
>>
I didn't really intend to imply (or even hypothesize) that jack had gotte=
n
hold of some naturally occurring LSD (necessarily). When I read Big Sur o=
ver
again, I was simply struck by how similar his madness was to acid & mesca=
line
trips I took in the Sixties and finally, in 1970. Seems to me there must =
have
been a catlyst that set him off. I've heard people say it was the DTs, an=
d I
don't know too much about those, but I'm betting bummers, DTs and Jeffers=
on
Airplane flights all come out of the same place, and are activated throug=
h
the hypothalmus gland.
But I'd love to hear other accounts of experiences similar to that jack w=
rote
about in Big Sur, and know how they came about. I've seen two schizophren=
ic
breakdowns, but they didn't heal right up like jack's did, and the worst =
of
his delusions seemed to take place over a period of time that was less th=
an
24 hours long.
On the other hand, like Ferlinghetti (Monsanto) keeps telling jack in the
book, "Don't think too much... you think too much." And jack himself wrot=
e
about that:
I GO WALKING TOWARDS Mien Mo mountain in the moon illuminated August nigh=
t,
see gorgeous misty mountains rising the horizon and like saying to me "Yo=
u
dont have to torture your consciousness with endless thinking" so I sit i=
n
the sand and look inward=85 "Man is a busy little animal, a nice little a=
nimal,
his thoughts about everything dont amount to shit."
I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=
ages
in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=
a
book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=
e
story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.
I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =
be
aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=
en
he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=
l as
a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=
olks
can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:
BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except
Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather
strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=
on
of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I
conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =
from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
But he saw his weaknesses:
WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=
the
soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a
fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
And maybe drugs were getting to him:
BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=
=92ve
long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97
Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:
=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =
on
dusky streets and think how awful I was in this development everybody sai=
d
was supposed to be "my life" and "their lives." =96Not so much that I=92m=
a
drunkard that I feel guilty about but that others who occupy this plane o=
f
"life on earth" with me don=92t feel guilty at all=97
I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=
th
LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=
th
what he saw, and I add this tiny bit of theory: I think there were so few
peers in his world who could ever reach him, because he was on a plane pe=
ople
could witness but never visit. I know people like that. They just can't b=
e
reached, not with fame, not with money, not with success, not with family=
,
not with love. You can offer them everything, but their connection to god=
or
creation is the only one they know and can hear, and when that connection
gets fucked up... they're gone, baby, gone like jack.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:11:34 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
i was writing a post like this when this came up, Bentz. thanks. the soul
chooses its path for its own reasons. who are we to judge that? hell, i'm in
love with JK - sometimes reading him is like reading myself (only a thousand
times better). i was just a kid when he died and the only thing i really knew
about him was having seen him on the Steve Allen show when i was probably
about 5 or 7. i knew of him as a writer, but didn't 'meet' him until fairly
recently. the moment i 'met' him there was an instant soul connection for me.
sometimes the feet can't cling to this earth any more. he needed to go sooner
than he did. "Big Sur" makes it obvious. but his doubt kept him here and
the drink dulled the fear. i definitely say a huge YES to life. and as much
as i would have liked Jack to be around when i could have appreciated him and
would have been greedy to have more and more books from him, i would never
have wished for his continued misery. i'll always mourn him, but i'll never
be angry at him - he owed me nothing.
ciao, sherri
"there's a black cat caught in a high treetop (that's my soul up there)...
i'll always be queen of pain"
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of R. Bentz Kirby
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 1997 8:24 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
RACE --- wrote:
<snip>
perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
Jack gave everything he had in his soul to give. He then was truly a
"homeless"
man in that he was on this planet past his time. He wrote it all. With
Thomas
Wolfe, they told the story of 20th Century America. They both then left as it
was
time to go. Jack just could not adjust to living without the fire in his gut.
He
couldn't make the change. That's cool. As Neil Young said, "Better to burn
out,
than to fade away."
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:20:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: LSD INFO RESEARCH HISTORY
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971123221643.32078B-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Potato Chips were also an accidental discovery, jus thought youd like to
>know...
So were Post It notes, Ivory (it floats) bar soap, and flubber.
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:40:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <msg1274808.thr-3c78858a.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
> thought when i saw the ad too.
Argh. I swear, I'm really sorry to keep bothering people with this, but
its Joyce Johnson, not Edie Parker.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:55:37 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: oops typo Re: LSD INFO ADDENDUM
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hi dave: in vanity of duluoz, he talks of developing phlebitis from too many
benzedrine inhalers, but i don't know if this stopped his use
RACE --- wrote:
> RACE --- wrote:
> >
> > does someone know more about the changes in Kerouac's chemical use in
> > the past ten years or so? did he move strictly to alcohol? when did he
> > slow on stimulants? are there accounts of what his attitude towards
> > stimulants were in the later years?
> >
> > wondering in kansas. soon to head for turkey in Denver.
> >
> > david rhaesa
> > salina, Kansas
>
> i meant to say "last" ten years, not "past" ten years. though if
> anybody on the list has heard from Jack in the past ten years concerning
> chemicals or other matters i'd love to hear that too!!!!!
>
> david
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:57:47 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> hi dave: in vanity of duluoz, he talks of developing phlebitis from too many
> benzedrine inhalers, but i don't know if this stopped his use
>
oh yeah - i forgot about the phlebitis factor.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:06:53 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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i agree, david- and i also believe it was the disconnection that alcoholism
brought on. JK was JK and he wrote and left us so much to read understand enjoy
and cry about in the autobiographical explorations of self and friends and
search
for spirituality.
i don't feel ripped off, i do feel sorrowful at such an untimely and horrible
death.
mc
RACE --- wrote:
> i think i understand what you're saying. but on a lot of JK threads
> over the same year i feel like there is an anger towards JK for his
> drinking and his dying young -- and i'm not certain that it is exactly
> rational. i'm not saying that you're going this far here. but if JK is
> one of those folks that is ultimately connected with these magical
> mysterious forces more than with us mortals -- perhaps he went away b/c
> that's where he truly belonged. i don't know. just wonder sometimes if
> our collective feeling of being cheated out of more years of the JK that
> has been pedestalized isn't unfair.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:09:45 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: on the other hand (was Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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RACE --- wrote:
> on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
> for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
> ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
> means this is the proper path for most of us. This is part of why i
> think that reading his work as a means of avoiding self-destructiveness
> (as suggested in the Vanity threads) can be very important.
>
> but then again - what do i know ---- i've been threw more crackups than
> Jack and definitely had my own self-destructive phase so perhaps i
> should not be preachy --- if i was being preachy --
>
> i'll go back to talking to myself in private now..... :)
>
> david
nah dave you were talking to me, with my own share of crackups, never have i
suggested (even with art flowing out after the fact) that the way to
understanding
lies in a psychic meltdown.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:16:19 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without anger
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> i've always called it the dylan thomas syndrome, falling dead off his
> barstool and all who have emulated the sickness as a way to let out or
> discover creativity.
mc
>
>
> Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and
> self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The
> self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it conn=
ected
> to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an
> artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel=
, a
> vessel, a drunk. To be angry at him is understandable, at a distance fr=
om
> whence we view it today. But if only we had seen him up close... I don'=
t
> think anyone would have wasted their anger on him. Again, in his words:
> "WELL I DONT KNOW all those big theories about how everything should be
> goddamit all I know it that I=92m a helpless hunk of horse manure looki=
ng in
> your eye saying Help me"=97
>
> Shit, why am I explaining? It's all there, in Big Sur, and it only take=
s a
> Saturday to read it.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:02:09 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: jo grant
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sorry all, but i need to get in touch with you jo, my attempts to
contact you back channel keep bouncing back
thanks
marie c
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:18:17 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
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Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of
> essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that
> I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny
> books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good
> Blonde? Thanks.
> ~Nancy
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
In reading through all the titles of the reviews and whatnot at
<http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Biblio/KerouacBiblio.html> there wasn't
anything that seemed explicitly devoted to GB. Perhaps the maintainer
of that site will have further ideas.
good luck.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:17:51 -0600
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From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
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How about them toad-suckers
Ain't they sappy?
Sucking them bog frogs
Sure makes 'em happy...
Mason Williams (a man well ahead of his time)
----------
> From: Gary Mex Glazner <PoetMex@AOL.COM>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD
> Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 6:36 PM
>
> Hey Beat-list have any of you tried Toad Venom?
>
> T.V.
> "I've got a new drug."
> Fritz has a new drug.
> "Toad venom wanna smoke some?"
> "What does it do?"
> "Mild high, acid, hash, coke buzz."
> "Totally toadular."
> Nee deep, Nee deep.
> We drive to the beach,
> Climb down cliffs.
> Fritz loads the pipe,
> Flaky wax substance.
> Take a hit,
> Rolling, ground.
> Kids on the cliff shout,
> "Hey man, smoke that bud up here dude."
> Fritz takes a hit. Now we are both rolling,
> I yell back to them,
> "TOAD VENOM!!"
> Frog high, web brain.
> Buddha bug tongue buzz.
> Old pond splashes in mind.
> Close eyes.
> Tune to insects,
> Scope, sight, snatch.
> Toad Mind, Toad Soul, Wart Love!!
> Hallucinaphibians in desert,
> Arizona evenings, web foot summer.
> Glands in the backs of their necks,
> defense against being bit.
> Squeeze, pop, juicy, squirt,
> On Pyrex dish.
> Let it dry over night.
> Scrape, scrape.
> Fly paper lily pad, LEAP!
> Nee deep, Nee deep, Nee Deep.
>
> Yrs,
> Gary Mex Glazner
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:00:09 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> I did not mean to sanction what Jack did. My point was that once he
> knew that
> his
> purpose as a "writer" had been manifest, he could not adjust to a new
> role. I
> think
> it is tragic that he lacked the courage to do it. It's just that some
> choose to
> leave once they "do it." I have always admired WSB's courage for
> hanging tough
> no
> matter what. I wish that Jack had more of that. But he didn't. So,
> it is
> better
> that he is gone. And he did give us all of his heart and soul, even if
> he
> couldn't
> do it in real life relationships.
Bentz,
It still seems to me that what you are saying with the ideas of "better
to burn than fade away," and "his purpose as a writer had been manifest"
is awfully close to fatalism, that we are all given certain paths in life
and there's nothing we can do to change them. I agree with Patricia that
"Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it." I don't feel
particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that. Even if
you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice. It's
not like cancer. You can choose not to drink. It brings us back to the
whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn
out in self-destructiveness. What a wonderful excuse that is to think
you are fated to be self-destructive. The woman in Big Sur tries
continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,
which is a slow suicide. But when Billie runs out into the ocean, for a
moment, Jack thinks she is going to commit suicide, and writes, "I
suddenly wonder if she's going to horrify the heavens and me too with a
sudden suicide walk into those awful undertows..." The thought shocked
him, it horrified him, he didn't think, it's fate, it's OK for her to
choose death now. Big Sur is a record of a human being's own
self-destruction. And if anyone reads it with the attitude that, "yes
Jack was meant to be this way, he was in too much pain to live on earth,
it was good he died young, then it is also sending a message to whole new
generations of writers and other humans that self-destruction is OK. So
maybe then after writing this I do agree with Patricia's anger; it's
true, we can never walk in anyone else's shoes but we should be angry
when any person's gift is lost to the world through self-destruction.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:05:25 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
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>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>>
>> I am using Good Blonde for an assigment which entails studying a group of
>> essays written by one author. The next part of the assigment requires that
>> I find an essay on the original essays. Does anyone know if there are ny
>> books out there that critique Kerouac's work, particularly those Good
>> Blonde? Thanks.
>> ~Nancy
Good Blonde is a recent compilation of assorted pieces by kerouac. As such
you won't find anything about this book but might find some things about
the individual pieces.
As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in The
Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay to
the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university library
to find it I'll bet.
The Moderns might help for what you are trying to do.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:26:16 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-24 11:41:01 EST, DC wrote:
<< I agree with Patricia that
"Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it." I don't feel
particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that. Even if
you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice. It's
not like cancer. You can choose not to drink. It brings us back to the
whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn
out in self-destructiveness. What a wonderful excuse that is to think
you are fated to be self-destructive. The woman in Big Sur tries
continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,
which is a slow suicide. >>
Good, bad or indifferent, jack always drank and jack always wrote. He didn't
"drown his gift in alcoholism." All the while he was drinking, taking speed,
and smoking dope, he was writing the beautiful words we all read today, but
not because of the drinking, as I said before; IN SPITE OF IT.
If you think alcoholism is any less fatal or imprisoning than cancer, I'd say
you should do a little research on the subject. It's a complicated disease,
and from the outside, it looks like drinkers SHOULD be able to choose, should
be able to stop. But if they could, they would. In the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous, 1939, Bill W. (founder of AA) wrote:
RARELY HAVE WE SEEN A PERSON FAIL who hs thoroughly followed our path. Those
who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give
themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are
constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such
unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to be born that way.
He goes on to say, "Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling,
powerful! Without help it is too much for us." Alcoholics Anonymous, the most
recommended group in the world for recovering from alcoholism, still has a
less than 10% success rate. That's not because it isn't a good program. It's
because alcoholism is a disease that grabs one by the soul, mind and body,
all at once, and releasing its grip is, for most of us, impossible.
As for Billie, man, there is one sick puppy. That woman is despicable, and
she's not "helping" jack at all in Big Sur. She's only interested in what she
can get from him. She's in love with Neal, and wants to use jack to get to
Neal. In jack's mind, he sees the conspiracy:
CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet Billie
and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are
going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my
control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and
never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10
novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll get
all my money?
Here's jack with this beautiful blonde who wants to fuck all the time, but
continually lays trips on him about how she has nothing to live for and is
going to kill herself. Not only is she going to kill herself, but she's going
to take her 4-year-old son, Elliot, out with her. And well she should, since
she's messed him up beyond belief, encouraging the child to watch her and her
lovers fucking and to ask questions about it, but then when he asks too many
questions, she flips out, tells the kid she's going to beat him, beats him,
and then tells him it's his fault she's beating him and because she feels so
bad about beating him, she has to kill herself. This, to a four-year-old. I
say, no fucking wonder jack flipped out with Billie.
Near the end, when Billie digs an Elliot-sized grave, that little wigged-out
child is hysterical, screaming, "grabs the shovel and refuses [to] go near
the hole," Billie plays a sadistic game with Elliot and jack, and when jack
confronts her about it: "With the same quiet steady smile Billie says, 'Oh
you're so fucking neurotic!'"
This woman is more insane than jack, more neurotic and twisted. As I was
reading Big Sur this time, I was wondering what ever happened to her son,
who'd be 40 or 41 today. He was one of the several children jack mentions in
Big Sur, including Michael McClure's "pretty little angel daughter... coming
in to hand me an extremely tiny flower," and the 8, 9 and 10 year old girls
the pedophile Perry Yturbide says have "the most beautiful cans in town," to
which jack thinks, "I realize he's dangerously insane," as he kidnaps the
10-year-old and takes her off to molest her. But Billie, when jack tells her
this, only says, "That's the way he is, be sure to dig him"--
No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just his own
alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and ghouls
that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik scene.
Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from anything, and
no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was then,
entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's very easy
to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.
He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or
self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other alcoholics. If
they could choose another way to be, they would.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:28:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:
>> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
>> thought when i saw the ad too.
>Argh. I swear, I'm really sorry to keep bothering people with this, but
>its Joyce Johnson, not Edie Parker.
So the caption is wrong then? hmmm.. wonder if the folks who
compiled it know that?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:03:16 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
Comments: To: Anne <gbarker@thegrid.net>
In-Reply-To: <34764033.BBD9A82F@thegrid.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Yeah, my own version of that has always been, "Sure, I believe in God--I
just have no idea what that means."
These days I lean toward my own understanding of Buddhism.
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is
really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:06:58 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: opening chapter of duluoz
Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
In-Reply-To: <347706F7.472D@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, it's gotta be Marshall McLuhan, right? But I don't know which book.
I'd guess UNDERSTANDING MEDIA, his most famous--but there again, even
though I've read it, I don't recognize which part J.K. might be thinking
of...hrmmma....
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is
really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:50:49 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
imagination?
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
>In a message dated 97-11-24 11:41:01 EST, DC wrote:
>
><< I agree with Patricia that
> "Jack drowned his gift in alcholism and killed it." I don't feel
> particularly angry about that but I do feel very sad about that. Even if
> you believe alcoholism is a disease, it is a disease with a choice. It's
> not like cancer. You can choose not to drink. It brings us back to the
> whole erroneous idea that the nature of the artist is to suffer and burn
> out in self-destructiveness. What a wonderful excuse that is to think
> you are fated to be self-destructive. The woman in Big Sur tries
> continually to help Jack but he continues to choose the path he is on,
> which is a slow suicide. >>
>
>Good, bad or indifferent, jack always drank and jack always wrote. He
didn't
>"drown his gift in alcoholism." All the while he was drinking, taking
speed,
>and smoking dope, he was writing the beautiful words we all read today, but
>not because of the drinking, as I said before; IN SPITE OF IT.
>
>If you think alcoholism is any less fatal or imprisoning than cancer, I'd
say
>you should do a little research on the subject. It's a complicated disease,
>and from the outside, it looks like drinkers SHOULD be able to choose,
should
>be able to stop. But if they could, they would. In the Big Book of
Alcoholics
>Anonymous, 1939, Bill W. (founder of AA) wrote:
>RARELY HAVE WE SEEN A PERSON FAIL who hs thoroughly followed our path.
Those
>who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give
>themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are
>constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such
>unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to be born that way.
>
>He goes on to say, "Remember that we deal with alcohol--cunning, baffling,
>powerful! Without help it is too much for us." Alcoholics Anonymous, the
most
>recommended group in the world for recovering from alcoholism, still has a
>less than 10% success rate. That's not because it isn't a good program.
It's
>because alcoholism is a disease that grabs one by the soul, mind and body,
>all at once, and releasing its grip is, for most of us, impossible.
>
>As for Billie, man, there is one sick puppy. That woman is despicable, and
>she's not "helping" jack at all in Big Sur. She's only interested in what
she
>can get from him. She's in love with Neal, and wants to use jack to get to
>Neal. In jack's mind, he sees the conspiracy:
>CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet
Billie
>and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are
>going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my
>control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and
>never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10
>novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll
get
>all my money?
>
>Here's jack with this beautiful blonde who wants to fuck all the time, but
>continually lays trips on him about how she has nothing to live for and is
>going to kill herself. Not only is she going to kill herself, but she's
going
>to take her 4-year-old son, Elliot, out with her. And well she should,
since
>she's messed him up beyond belief, encouraging the child to watch her and
her
>lovers fucking and to ask questions about it, but then when he asks too
many
>questions, she flips out, tells the kid she's going to beat him, beats him,
>and then tells him it's his fault she's beating him and because she feels
so
>bad about beating him, she has to kill herself. This, to a four-year-old. I
>say, no fucking wonder jack flipped out with Billie.
>
>Near the end, when Billie digs an Elliot-sized grave, that little
wigged-out
>child is hysterical, screaming, "grabs the shovel and refuses [to] go near
>the hole," Billie plays a sadistic game with Elliot and jack, and when jack
>confronts her about it: "With the same quiet steady smile Billie says, 'Oh
>you're so fucking neurotic!'"
>
>This woman is more insane than jack, more neurotic and twisted. As I was
>reading Big Sur this time, I was wondering what ever happened to her son,
>who'd be 40 or 41 today. He was one of the several children jack mentions
in
>Big Sur, including Michael McClure's "pretty little angel daughter...
coming
>in to hand me an extremely tiny flower," and the 8, 9 and 10 year old girls
>the pedophile Perry Yturbide says have "the most beautiful cans in town,"
to
>which jack thinks, "I realize he's dangerously insane," as he kidnaps the
>10-year-old and takes her off to molest her. But Billie, when jack tells
her
>this, only says, "That's the way he is, be sure to dig him"--
>
>No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just his
own
>alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and
ghouls
>that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik scene.
>
>Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from anything,
and
>no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was then,
>entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's very
easy
>to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.
>
>He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or
>self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other alcoholics.
If
>they could choose another way to be, they would.
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:03:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Comments: To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:
<<
You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
imagination?
leon
>>
If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first
time I ever heard anyone say that.
Is that what you think?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:37:42 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Timothy Gallaher wrote:
> As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
The
> Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
> in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay
to
> the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university
library
> to find it I'll bet.
"city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde." Is "New York Scenes" the piece
that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:52:42 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Atheism -- Agnostic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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My personal favorite summing up of a life philosophy that I can accept is
from His Holiness the Pope of Straight Poop, Frank Zappa:
Do what you wanna
Do what you will
Just don't mess up
Your neighbor's thrill
And when you pay the bill
Kindly leave a little tip
To help the next poor sucker
On his one-way trip
"The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing" (from "You Are What You Is")
Just my own two existential cents,
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:13:37 -0800
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From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Herbert Huncke
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
sex and companionship.
Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
Tristan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:28:36 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:37 PM 11/24/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Timothy Gallaher wrote:
>
>> As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
>The
>> Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
>> in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay
>to
>> the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university
>library
>> to find it I'll bet.
>
>"city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde." Is "New York Scenes" the piece
>that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?
>
>Jym
>
>
Yes, Manhattan Sketches is what I erroneously called New York Scenes (I
didn't remember the name) but cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde I am fairly sure.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:08:01 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
>In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:
>
><<
> You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
> horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
> imagination?
>
> leon
>
> >>
>If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first
>time I ever heard anyone say that.
>
>Is that what you think?
>.-
I don't expect to learn the full truth of what went down there. Others may
know, I do not know. I have seen people doing crazy and acting it out on
their children, that is not impossible to have happened.
I have never myself witnessed chidren of that age observing adults sexual
performance, but I do know it is a fact of ordinary life in many poor
communities where children share the living space, sometimes even bed, with
their parents.
I do know there was experimentaion going on in Big Sur a few years later in
the sixties. I remeber in particular one couple who moved from the North
Beach to Big Sur. The man was a former teacher who ran the Cellar where his
wife was a waitress. This was in the end of the fifties. He was no wild
maniac, but a very conscientious nice guy, although by 1965 he did succumb
to heroin. Before that he was telling me how he thought their kids blossomed
under the freedom and honest exposure to natural phenomena as they occured.
I was of course very interested and for a couple of years followed his
stories about how wonderfully the kids were developing, including their
reactions to what they were observing. To repeat, I have no personal first
hand knowledge about children observing adult sexual activity, although when
we lived in the Flower Farm community, my daughter had her own bed in our
one room. She was three years old, but I can tell you that she is a
wonderful person with no apparent ill effects. I am prepared to believe
that it may not necessarily be as much of a horror movie to them as is
suggested in the post. I can expect a helplessly hysterical out of control
mother to act out crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more
than is publicly acknowledged.
What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:35:49 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Alcock, Denis" <alcockd@BESTWESTERN.COM>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
Huncke died about a few years ago. There is an excellent documentary
called 'Huncke and Me', which is a candid interview with Huncke shortly
before his death.
Denis Alcock
> ----------
> From: tristan saldana[SMTP:hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU]
> Reply To: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 1997 1:13 PM
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Herbert Huncke
>
> I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story.
> He
> wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
> tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
> sex and companionship.
>
> Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
>
> Tristan
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:54:48 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.971124120646.8908A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
>wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
>tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
>sex and companionship.
>
>Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
>
>Tristan
Hunke is dead. See:
http://www.bookzen.com/books/068815266X_b.html
for details on The Herbert Hunke Reader, Ben Schafer, Editor.
In the near future Ben will be discussing The Herbert Hunke Reader on radio
statin WORT-FM, Madison, WI. There will be others who knew HH joining in
the conversation. Hope to get it transcribed so it can be posted to the
Beat List.
j grant
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:46:10 -0700
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <Pine.HPP.3.91.971124120646.8908A-100000@csun1.csun.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
tristan
as far as i know huncke died in 1996 ( i could be wrong abt the date,
but he is quite dead) i suggest that you pick up a copy of _the herbert
Huncke reader_ which is quite excellent, containing unpublished work and
excerpts from all his other books, its available from Waterrow books
(www.waterrowbooks.com)
but - yep definately read this book
yrs
derek
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, tristan saldana wrote:
> I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
> wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
> tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
> sex and companionship.
>
> Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
>
> Tristan
>
****************************
Derek beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#5-933 3rd ave nw
calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"
-Jack Kerouac
*****************
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:08:30 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
Comments: To: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
citycitycity IS in "Good Blonde"--I'm looking at it right now...
Don
The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is
really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:47:23 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <E1D34B8573D0D0119F350000F863286544B5C1@phxopsexc00.bestwestern.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Huncke died about a few years ago. There is an excellent documentary
> called 'Huncke and Me', which is a candid interview with Huncke shortly
> before his death.
Huh? Haven't heard about this one. Any more info on it or any of you
captialistic literary peddlers can tell me a little about this?
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:12:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971124134358.63502A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thanks very much for the info. I am very sad to hear that Huncke's gone.
He and Corso are my favorites.
Tristan
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> tristan
> as far as i know huncke died in 1996 ( i could be wrong abt the date,
> but he is quite dead) i suggest that you pick up a copy of _the herbert
> Huncke reader_ which is quite excellent, containing unpublished work and
> excerpts from all his other books, its available from Waterrow books
> (www.waterrowbooks.com)
> but - yep definately read this book
> yrs
> derek
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, tristan saldana wrote:
> > I am going to the libary today. I will find Hebert Huncke's story. He
> > wrote about himself. Kerouac says that he's one of the finest story
> > tellers there ever was. Kerouac also says that Huncke was starved for
> > sex and companionship.
> >
> > Is Hebert Huncke still alive?
> >
> > Tristan
> >
>
> ****************************
> Derek beaulieu
> House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
> #5-933 3rd ave nw
> calgary, alberta, canada, t2n0j7
> "remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition"
> -Jack Kerouac
> *****************
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
>
> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."
There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:53:06 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
Comments: To: Sara Straw <saras@sisna.com>
In-Reply-To: <34771F89.58FB@sisna.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Sara Straw wrote:
> > As Abbie Hoffman pointed out, all isms are wasms.
> > Cordially,
> > Mike Skau
>
> I give up, what does THAT mean?
> It sounds real cute, but doesn't compute.
> s
>
Abbie explained that isms (capitalism, communism, socialism--Judaism,
Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.)--that is, all artificial organizations and
groups with set beliefs, principles, etc.--belong to the past (wasms). He
felt that we had to leave all that behind because it infringed on the
importance of individual rights (see _The Best of Abbie Hoffman_, pp.
376-77, where he spells it _wasisms_; when I heard him speak at Naropa
Institute years ago, he pronounced it _wasms_).
Hope this helps.
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:54:24 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Date: 97-11-24 17:54:57 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:
<< I can expect a helplessly hysterical out of control mother to act ou=
t
crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more than is publicly
acknowledged.>>
I don't want to get off on a tangent about sexual abuse of children, beca=
use
that's a very complicated subject that deserves its own thread on another
list. But somehow your comment reminded me of this anecdote about Dorothy
Parker (who, by the way, wrote a scathing review of The Subterraneans whe=
n it
came out!) and a mother who seemed quite in control and not the least
hysterical:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
---=20
Lilly (from Peter Fiebleman=92s biography of Lillian Hellman)
The story Lillian had asked me (P. F.) to tell that day was short. I=
t
happened one evening in Los Angeles when I walked over to have a drink wi=
th
Dorothy (Parker). A friend of Dorothy=92s, a well-known actress living in=
the
neighborhood, had just come to visit with her little boy, who was six.
The actress kept her son in a vise-like grip on her lap and played w=
ith
him while she talked. She could not let the child alone; her hands wander=
ed
over his mouth and face and chest and crotch and legs and feet and toes a=
nd
then started all over again, while the child squirmed and wriggled to get=
off
her lap. At last he slipped out of his mother=92s grip, jumped to the flo=
or and
ran into the next room to be alone and play.
"I KNOW I=92m prejudiced, " the actress said, smiling, "after all, h=
e=92s
only six=85but he is a beautiful little boy, isn=92t he?"
"Yes, he is," Dorothy said. "Strange=85he never married."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
------------
<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that
populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by t=
he
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everyt=
hing
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>
Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feel=
s
like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's book=
s?=20
I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a dail=
y
basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writin=
g
style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.
Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it=
, or
to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, =
or
emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.
Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:15:36 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <199711241953.NAA02242@core0.mx.execpc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Actually, cityCityCITY is in my copy of Good Blonde...
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
>
> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
> The
> > Moderns (as was New York Scenes--an excerpt from Visions of Cody--is this
> > in Good Blonde?), edited by Leroi Jones. He wrote an introductory essay
> to
> > the stories, you could look there. But you will need a university
> library
> > to find it I'll bet.
>
> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde." Is "New York Scenes" the piece
> that appears in "GB" as "Manhattan Sketches"?
>
> Jym
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:12:37 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without anger
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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You_Be Fine wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-11-24 00:08:13 EST, you write:
>
> <<
> on the other hand, also important not to pedestalize self-destruction
> for it's own sake. in the event that one feels JK may have been
> ultimately connected with mysteries better met post-mortem, it hardly
> means this is the proper path for most of us. >>
>
> Yeah, the artist/poet myth that allows for unchecked drinking and
> self-destructive behaviour is romantic and bogus and SICK. The
> self-destruction that jack suffered was NOT deliberate, nor was it connected
> to his gift... his "angel mind," if you will (hee hee hee)... He was an
> artist IN SPITE of it, not BECAUSE of it. He was an alcoholic, an angel, a
> vessel, a drunk.
i think the evidence on what you're suggesting here -- especially given
the capitalization -- is far from settled yet. I'm currently reading a
wonderful study titled Touched with Fire: Manic Depressive Illness and
the Artistic Temperament. What I've gleaned so far is that quite a lot
of study is currently moving concerning the connections of chemistry and
creativity -- and whether the correlation is one of "because" or "in
spite of". And it seems to me that though the author may be leaning
towards an in spite of notion (with the qualifier that medical treatment
of the illness occurs), it seems to me so far that the evidence is far
from showing that point. The depth of experience chronicled by Jack is
connected to his gift as a writer for certain. Not just anyone can
chronicle such experiences. But the experiencing of these things in the
first place involves a different than average connection with the world
and perceptions.
The myth you suggest as SICK is i would agree SICK when it is the basis
for people trying to imitate self-destructions in hope of gaining the
writing gift. But perhaps it is also SICK to believe that all social
and scientific knowledge of these notions was determined pre-1940. Both
myths have force in society and neither one alone is the answer. In the
book you refer to in another post, it suggests the wording that more
will be revealed. In the case of connections between brain chemistry
and creativity and the nature of these correlations it seems this is
definitely the case -- the jury is certainly out.
david rhaesa
TIAA P&D Disabled
Salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:17:07 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Comments: To: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <msg1274808.thr-3c78858a.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> >Why am I prolonging this?
> >I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
> >with the
> >audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
> >I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
>
> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
> thought when i saw the ad too.
>
If you look at the photos carefully, you'll see that Jack's got his chin
lifted more in one of them than in the other. In addition, that is not
Edie in the background, despite what the text says for the photo in _The
Jack Kerouac Collection_ booklet (p. 20): it's Joyce Johnson, and the same
photo was used on the cover of her _Minor Characters_ and for the poster
for the _Kerouac_ film. Perhaps this explains why the women could be
airbrushed from the photos; apparently they are so interchangeable that
their identities are not important (said with tongue in cheek).
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:21:20 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
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You are suggesting that you have no reason to doubt Jack's ability to see
things as they were at the time:
<<SNIP>>
>His writing
>style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
>faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
>The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
>participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.
Does this excerpt fit your faith in Jack's ability to see things as they
were at the time? Is this what you bellieve was Jack's state of mind always
"on a daily basis" when he wrote other things?
<<SNIP>>
>CAN IT BE it was all arranged by Dave Wain via Cody that I would meet
Billie
>and be driven mad and now they've got me alone in the woods and they are
>going to give me final poisons tonight that will utterly remove all my
>control so that in the morning I'll have to go to a hospital forever and
>never write another line?--Dave Wain is jealous because I wrote 10
>novels?--Billie has been assigned by Cody to get me to marry her so he'll
get
>all my money?
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 3:02 PM
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Date: 97-11-24 17:54:57 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:
<< I can expect a helplessly hysterical out of control mother to act out
crazily with her child. It happens tragically a lot more than is publicly
acknowledged.>>
I don't want to get off on a tangent about sexual abuse of children, because
that's a very complicated subject that deserves its own thread on another
list. But somehow your comment reminded me of this anecdote about Dorothy
Parker (who, by the way, wrote a scathing review of The Subterraneans when
it
came out!) and a mother who seemed quite in control and not the least
hysterical:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
---
Lilly (from Peter Fieblemans biography of Lillian Hellman)
The story Lillian had asked me (P. F.) to tell that day was short. It
happened one evening in Los Angeles when I walked over to have a drink with
Dorothy (Parker). A friend of Dorothys, a well-known actress living in the
neighborhood, had just come to visit with her little boy, who was six.
The actress kept her son in a vise-like grip on her lap and played with
him while she talked. She could not let the child alone; her hands wandered
over his mouth and face and chest and crotch and legs and feet and toes and
then started all over again, while the child squirmed and wriggled to get
off
her lap. At last he slipped out of his mothers grip, jumped to the floor
and
ran into the next room to be alone and play.
"I KNOW Im prejudiced, " the actress said, smiling, "after all, hes
only sixbut he is a beautiful little boy, isnt he?"
"Yes, he is," Dorothy said. "Strangehe never married."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------
<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that
populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>
Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels
like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?
I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a daily
basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writing
style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.
Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it,
or
to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, or
emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.
Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.
.-
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:20:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Abbie explained that isms (capitalism, communism, socialism--Judaism,
>Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.)--that is, all artificial organizations and
>groups with set beliefs, principles, etc.--belong to the past (wasms).
also, the very fact that ism institutions establish rigid "party
platforms" forces them to become outdated from the moment they're
formed, because they are resistant to change, also, my own slant here,
something conceived in an instant in time to become an ism is dated to
that time, and is outdated thereafter because of change. one of the
reasons that the many major religions that remain alive today are doing
so is because they've become flexible enough to adapt to change a morph
as necessary.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:53:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 from
<taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 Jeff Taylor said:
>On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
>
>> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
>> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
>>
>> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."
>
>There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
>there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
>edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
>fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
>
>*******
>Jeff Taylor
>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>*******
Thanks for noting this interesting bibliographical development. Wonder how it
came about?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:00:27 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> >In a message dated 97-11-24 13:58:57 EST, leon asked:
> >
> ><<
> > You really believe that Jack here is a faithful reporter who chronicles
> > horrible deeds by horrible people, and is not writing from his own
> > imagination?
> >
> > leon
> >
> > >>
> >If you're saying this is a fictionalized account, that would be the first
> >time I ever heard anyone say that.
> >
> >Is that what you think?
> >.-
> I don't expect to learn the full truth of what went down there. Others may
> know, I do not know. I have seen people doing crazy and acting it out on
> their children, that is not impossible to have happened.
<snip>
> What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that populated
> his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
> people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
> wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
> that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.
>
> leon
At very least for sure. I imagine that even if we were people involved
we could not know to what extent our actions contributed to paranoid
visions and to what extent these perceptions would have happened
regardless of what actions we took.
Also at the very least it is important to recall the words attributed to
WSB on other posts in other threads of it being important to keep in
mind that Jack was "an author". While the stories he tells are
sometimes autobiographical and sometimes historical, they are nearly
always considered to be "fiction."
And even if they weren't, and despite Jack's famous memory, the
perceptions one has of events during a crack-up (based on my own
experiences and others i've known) are certainly only one point of view
of the events that transpired. It is difficult to expect anything akin
to objectivity ever concerning such matters.
None of this is to detract from the wonders of Jack's artistic
contributions. It is merely a limit on how we understand and interpret
them. His contributions at describing vividly the wonders and horrors
that life can present are a wonderful gift to all of us -- and hopefully
to readers for decades and even centuries to come.
and the writing on this thread has definitely hooked me on Big Sur being
a book i ought to read and will certainly obtain in Denver. I leave
tomorrow.
hope y'all keep the Beat-L hopping while i'm gone -- i'll read the
digests when i return. perhaps i'll find a denver story or two to tell
as well.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:13:59 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
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You just gotta love someone who titles his autobiography "Guilty Of
Everything"!
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:16:22 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Jeff Taylor wrote:
> There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
> there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
> edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
> fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
Thanks, Jeff, for clearing this up. I was feeling very confused indeed.
Guess I need to track down a copy of the revised edition now.
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:25:12 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 3:02 PM
Subject: Fwd: big surLiSizeD without LSD
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Date: 97-11-24 17:54:57 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 15:37:55 EST, you write:
----------------------------------------------
I said:
<< What I do believe is that Jack was victimized by the horrors that
populated
his own imagination, to a much larger extent than he was victimized by the
people and events surrounding him there. At least some of the things he
wrote existed only in his paranoid visions. At the very least not everything
that he wrote down actually happened that way. At the very least.>>
You say:
>Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels
>like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
>believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?
I say:
So far I haven't advanced any theory. Merely looked at what Jack wrote down.
He writes a story describing deranged behavior that was going on in the
cabin in the woods. He also describes his paranoid fears that his mind
painted for him.
I called attention to it because you seemed to me to leap over the facts
with YOUR theories that it was those others who drove Jack crazy at that
time.
If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. But since you
mention theorizing, it is true that in my mind as well as in yours there
appear to be cetain explanations more plausible than others.
This IS my theory of what happened at Big Sur:
Stretched speed and booze too far holed up in the cabin in the woods.
The more plausible explanation in my mind for Jack's paranoid breakdown in
that visit in Big Sur was, and this is pure speculation, his mind driven
into the paranoid shadows that a few days on speed and alcohol that are
easily recognied by people who are familiar with what typically can happen.
I have seen quite a few people who after three days of overstimulating and
fatiguing their minds with speed, get very very delusional and paranoid. It
may well be that this was the time when Jack stretched too far his acustomed
runs on speed to take it over the edge holed up in that cabin., anxious to
use all these elements in a new work.
I would not call it a theory, but that is more consistent with what I know
about Jack, the way he wrote, the way he used speed a lot for his writing.
Just like on acid people had some lofty trips full of beauty and vision, and
a bummer where from the shadows of their unsettled issues sprung out
monsters that threatened to devour them. I just don't buy your perception
that Jack was fair mindedly and in charge of his mental faculties driven to
madness by these mentally ill others.
You say:
>I don't see jack walking around possessed by paranoid delusions on a daily
>basis. He was familiar with visions; he had them all his life. His writing
>style in Big Sur is not over the top. He does write like a reporter,
>faithfully accounting the facts of his life during a short period of time.
>The way he describes certain acts, as well as his tacit or active
>participation in those acts, is fair and straightforward.>
>Big Sur reads like life, and I have no reason to question any parts of it,
or
>to seek redemption for the characters who, through stupidity, ignorance, or
>emotional illness, were a part of his descent into madness.
Too bad Lew Welch isn't on the list to tell us what he saw there.
.
I agree with you there.
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:07:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Good Blonde
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997112418554094@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
My copy is from 1993 and it sounds exactly like the one described below...
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:49:09 -0600 Jeff Taylor said:
> >On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> >
> >> Timothy Gallaher wrote:
> >> > As I recall cityCityCITY is in Good Blonde. This was first publshed in
> >>
> >> "city CityCITY" is not in "Good Blonde."
> >
> >There are apparently 2 different editions of _Good Blonde & Others_ out
> >there. The copy I have says on the copyright page "Revised and enlarged
> >edition, 1994" and on the back cover, "'cityCityCITY', Jack's science
> >fiction vision of the future, has been added to this revised edition."
> >
> >*******
> >Jeff Taylor
> >taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
> >*******
>
> Thanks for noting this interesting bibliographical development. Wonder how
it
> came about?
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:21:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Resent-From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>
Comments: Originally-From: Emma Lee <ELYBC@CUNYVM>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: (FWD) Comparative Religions
In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 24 Nov 97 10:16:59 EST
For Rinaldo...an alternative text....Notice the interesting variations.
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
This is from my files, which has some duplicates, some new ones, and
even some different ones. ENJOY!
--ely
=======================================================================
A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF WORLD RELIGIOUS PHILOSOPHIES
Taoism: Shit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."
Buddhism: If shit happens, it really isn't shit.
Zen: What is the sound of shit happening?
Hinduism: This shit happened before.
Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Protestant: Let shit happen to someone else.
Catholic: If shit happens, you deserve it.
Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us?
Jehovah's Witness: Let us in and we'll tell you why shit happens.
Hare Krishna: Shit happens, shit happens, shit happens, shit happens.
Pagan: Shit is part of the Goddess, too.
Scientology: This book gets rid of your shit.
Existentialism: Everything is shit, so let's be depressed.
Nihilism: Everything is shit, so let's blow it up.
Satanism: I made shit happen and I'm glad about it.
Solipcism: This shit happens to me alone, but I am the cause of it.
Atheism: I don't believe this shit.
Agnosticism: What is this shit?
New Age: For $300 I can help you achieve Shit Happens Awareness.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:50:35 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> You_Be Fine wrote:
> No, that whole scene contributed to his crack-up at Big Sur, not just
> his own
> alcoholism (which lowered his defenses) but the users and misfits and
> ghouls
> that somehow attached themselves to jack, comprising that Beatnik
> scene.
>
> Read the book and maybe you'll see. No one can save anyone from
> anything, and
> no one can ruin anyone's life. But when someone is sick, as jack was
> then,
> entering the last stages of alcoholism with weeks-long binges, it's
> very easy
> to prey upon that person's weakness, to take advantage of him.
>
> He didn't choose to be an alcoholic, and he didn't have the strength or
> self-honesty to take the cure. He's just like a billion other
> alcoholics. If
> they could choose another way to be, they would.
I have read Big Sur. Twice. But given your interpretation, it does make
me wonder if we're reading the same book. I do believe that Jack's
writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to
end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of
delirium tremens. But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail
to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium
and paranoia. He writes (on page 191) "...I feel a great ghastly hatred
of myself and everything, the empty feeling far from being the usual
relief is now as tho I've been robbed of my spinal power right down the
middle on purpose by a great witching force--I feel evil forces gathering
down all around me, from her, the kid, the very walls of the cabin, the
trees, even the sudden thought of Dave Wain and Romana is evil..." Given
your literal interpretation, then not only is Billie and the kid and Dave
and Romana out to get him, but so are the trees and the walls of the
cabin. You have to see, as Leon accurately has been pointed out as well,
that anyone in this condition is not exactly in a sound state of mind.
My assessment of Billie also is much more sympathetic than yours. I
think (and this is only from what Jack wrote in Big Sur) that she truly
understood him and wanted to pull him from the brink of self-destruction,
but even she eventually realizes that he cannot accept her love because
he cannot love himself. I also do not agree with your assessment of
alcoholism, "if they could choose to be another way they would," because
it borders on fringe of saying "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic,"
and on an even greater scale, that people are powerless to change their
own lives no matter what kind of emotional trauma they have experienced
or path they are on. The choice to be otherwise is always there.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:08:32 +0000
Reply-To: randyr@southeast.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <randyr@pop.jaxnet.com>
From: randy royal <randyr@MAILHUB.JAXNET.COM>
Subject: Re: re beat fad spiritual atheism
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nice law. it is very true and evident in the every church in
almost every century but most evident when the catholic church
started celebrated christmas during winter time to appease the
peasents.
> formed, because they are resistant to change, also, my own slant here,
> something conceived in an instant in time to become an ism is dated to
> that time, and is outdated thereafter because of change. one of the
> reasons that the many major religions that remain alive today are doing
> so is because they've become flexible enough to adapt to change a morph
> as necessary.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:41:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
Let's see if I can clarify what I believe:
I believe jack kerouac was an alcoholic, and that it's the nature of an
alcoholic not to be able to make the healthy choices required for changes.
This belief of mine is highly personal, but I didn't get words to understand
or describe it until I entered the world of 12-Step programs 12 years ago.
I believe that jack was highly gifted, and furthermore, that he existed on a
higher plane of consciousness than most people ever do.
I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking
up.
I believe Big Sur is autobiographical. I've never heard any information to
the contrary, although I have heard jack quoted as saying it was
autobiographical.
I follow the book quite literally, and with every paragraph, every page I
turn, what he says makes more sense and rings more true.
Like everyone, my affinity for a certain book is founded on my own
experience, my own frame of reference. Because I've lived enough of the
events in Big Sur, I find them all very believable, and jack's telling of
them reasoned and illuminating.
To me, this book is a masterpiece. I just re-read it on Saturday before
posting my first comment to the list. I think I'll read it again, and of
course, I'll be thinking of all your comments while I do.
But I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that Big Sur should be seen as
literature, as opposed to a case study in a nervous breakdown, lived and
recounted by the one who experienced it.
Recently I read Sombrero Fallout by Richard Brautigan, and in the main
subplot (since there are about five plots, I think of them all as subplots,
but then, I'm no scholar, and proud of that fact; just a reader) what I saw
was the beginning of the end of Brautigan's life, or as Judith said about Big
Sur in the first place, "It was like reading a suicide note." I believed
Brautigan was foreshadowing his own suicide, and the fact that he did
ultimately die violently at his own hand supports my belief, at least to me.
What he went through was very familiar to me on a personal level (as a member
in good standing of the Crack-up Club, along with David Rhaesa and some
others too shy to talk about it).
Same thing with jack and reading Big Sur. I don't see any reason why I should
look for metaphor and all those painfully intellectual literary analyses (ew,
I'm so smart) when the words he wrote are all right there in front of me, in
perfect order, exactly as he meant for them to be read.
I really believe (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's participated in this
discussion so far falls into this description) that people are often so
uncomfortable with "the lunatic ravings" of a holy man, because there is so
much truth in them, that they need to retreat into rationalization, seeking
explanations rather than taking what's there on face value.
That's where I'm coming from. I don't try to figure jack out. I just let his
words transport me there.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:05:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In a message dated 97-11-24 21:42:35 EST, DC wrote:
<<
I have read Big Sur. Twice. But given your interpretation, it does make
me wonder if we're reading the same book. I do believe that Jack's
writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to
end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of
delirium tremens. But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail
to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium
and paranoia. >>
What can I tell you? My interpretation is mine, and yours is yours. I don't
know much about delirium tremens (although I'm going to do some research
now), but I don't think you just get them one night and then they go away.
The DTs, in my limited education on that subject, are present in the latest
stages of alcoholism, and it seems to me people don't experience them while
they are drunk, but when alcohol is withdrawn. Of course, in deference to
your comments, I will look for information on this subject so I can be better
informed.
And yes, I believe "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic." Alcoholism is a
disease whose only cure is to quit drinking. But you're still an alcoholic
after you quit, if you get lucky enough, and get enough strength to quit.
But you failed to make your syllogism with your final "extrapolation" on this
subject. I do believe people can change most things in their lives and
overcome great trauma. There are things that are bigger and more powerful
than many people, and alcoholism is one of those things. It is, as I stated,
a disease, covered by most medical insurance plans. And it is fatal, as it
was in jack's case, as it was in Dylan Thomas's case, as Marie mentioned
earlier, as it is in so many cases.
I have a little brother who's now dying of alcoholism. He's three years
younger than me and he has two types of chronic hepatitis, an enlarged liver,
diabetes, is blind in one eye, and was recently diagnosed with cancer of the
tongue. He's had his license taken away a dozen times. He's had a dozen
accidents while driving, most of which were hit-and-runs. He's lost a dozen
jobs, a million friends, watched others die, ruined his life, been in
treatment repeatedly, but guess what? He just can't quit drinking.
I've known him since the day he was born, and I know this is not the life he
would have chosen for himself. I used to get angry with him because I
believed somehow that he was doing this on purpose. I cut him out of my life,
I reported him to the police, I confiscated a gun from his house. But the
fact that I had known him as a child, and had seen where he came from, and
finally admitting I didn't understand alcoholism and needed to, made me come
to believe that "if he could make any other choice, he would." If it were
simply a matter of choice, there would be no alcoholics in the world.
I stand by what I believe, and I apply it to jack, and to all the other
alcoholics in the world who lose the fight.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:15:53 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Duncan Gray <duncang@ENTO.CSIRO.AU>
Subject: 'Last time I comitted suicide' reaches Australia
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The movie 'The last time I committed suicide' is available on video, in
Australia. I don't think any Cinema's showed it in Australia.
------------------------------------------------------------------.o0
Duncan Gray
Stored Grain Research Laboratory
CSIRO Entomology, GPO Box 1700, Canberra ACT 2601
Ph. (06) 246 4178 Fax (06) 246 4202
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:16:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You_Be Fine wrote:
>
> I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
> jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking
> up.
the above comment makes no sense, i too, am not a scholar (but i am
neither proud or ashamed, i never heard that it was that bad a field)
but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that
what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a
good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it
isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an
accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark
and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed
by booze.
patricia
p
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:26:40 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> You_Be Fine wrote:
> >
> > I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
> > jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was
cracking
> > up.
>
> the above comment makes no sense, i too, am not a scholar (but i am
> neither proud or ashamed, i never heard that it was that bad a field)
> but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that
> what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a
> good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it
> isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an
> accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark
> and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed
> by booze.
> patricia
> p
this is a very complicated thread and certainly requires the open-minded
considerations of realities that i've found so wonderful about the
supportive people on the list.
it seems a question of perspective. the reality of Jack's account and
the reality of alternative readings or potentially of other characters
can ALL be REAL. i once believed that in order to get out of leather
straps in a hospital i combined understandings from Kafka and Leary
notions and became a horse and broke through the straps. the experience
was REAL for me. But it is just as real for me to believe the alternate
account that after having passed out from any number of exhausting
influences the straps were removed. Both are REAL. Which happened is
one of those trivial historical questions (oops letting my colours show
there a bit concerning history!).
The realm of experience and the mysteries behind Being are still so
complicated that we cannot begin to understand them. We have to find
beliefs that work for us and be open-minded about other's beliefs as
well. But we need, i feel, to also guard against letting our beliefs
(which i've done many times) move from the range of belief into dogmas
that destroy the entire sense of believing.
It seems that this thread demonstrates the difficulty and complexity of
the experiences many of us have been through and continue to go through
-- and all our journeys are different -- and also, i think, shows a bit
of the wonderful community that exists here in which these notions can
be found in literature and tossed around and examined and thought about
and interpreted sometimes changing our minds milliseconds after we
thought our minds were made up. It is a lovely group.
And with that, i shift to digest and pack for Denver.
Happy Thanksgiving y'all.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:40:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
In-Reply-To: <347A5130.177B@sunflower.com> from "Patricia Elliott" at Nov 24,
97 10:16:48 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Patricia Elliot wrote:
> but i am pretty sure that cracking up (been there done that) means that
> what your seeing often isn't what is happening. I find big sur to be a
> good read, with great value. But as I read it make me believe that it
> isn't an accurate reflection of what was before him but what was an
> accurate reflection of what he might of seen. Not that it isn't a dark
> and evil world to look at, it is just a little darker to those depressed
> by booze.
Well, in my opinion what Kerouac went through (in real life at Big
Sur) is not that unusual. I think his greatness lay not in the
fact that he experienced this "breakdown" but rather that he
wrote about it. It was his courage to tell the truth that made
him important, because the truths need to be told for society
to heal itself. That's how I read his books: as attempts to
spiritually heal the world. Inspired by Jesus and Buddha
(and Emerson and Melville and Dostoevsky etc) ...
All of which is just a segue for me to mention that my
new piece about William S. Burroughs, featuring some excellent
words posted to the BEAT-L by Patricia Elliott (this time I
spelled it right) about his after-death ceremonies. It's
called Sliced Bardo and it's at:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/
Okay, back to the discussion.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:01:37 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: new to the list
Comments: To: VegasDaddy@AOL.COM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Subject:
> Re: is this still beat-l?
> Date:
> Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:20:04 -0500
> From:
> Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
>
>
> I'm new to the list, and I'm reading all this stuff about Gap ads and atheism
> and semantics and potential topics etc etc, and I guess I expected more of a
> discussion about actual Beat literature. I mean, I could discuss the
> pristine lyric of Corso's "Haarlem" or "Ode to Coit Tower" forever, but all
> this political business...I think that the wonderful thing about Jack Kerouac
> was his essential political apathy, and I think that he would have been
> amused at all this heated discussion about his image in the media. I think
> it's wonderful when the Beat writers are being discussed at all, in any
> vein...but I was wondering if anyone agrees about starting more discussions
> about the beautiful prose and phenomenal poetry itself. Those cats captured
> something magical in their literature and I for one would like to delve into
> that magic. I was also wondering if anyone would agree with me when I
> contend that Corso was the greatest poet among the Beats? Thanks, and
> perhaps I am totally off the mark here and don't know what the hell I'm
> talking about,
>
> Anthony
Welcome, Anthony!
Hi there how you doing? Not so very long ago, i too, was very new to
the list--I got in right as the last episode of the Great Kerouac Estate
Wars was going on. I felt the same as you, but the longer i am here the
more i discover that if we don't get a feel for who the people behind
the posts are, the conversations are rather boring. So i welcomed this
last foray into the religion issue. That issue was in fact very
relative to the beat generation discussion. Look at the varied
religions you have within the core group of writers--you had a nice
jewish boy and a nice catholic boy who both chose buddhism instead.
So to give you an idea who i am, beyond the above garbled paragraph:
I'm 28, live in marion iowa and i am a kerouac freak. That's why i am
here.
I will also be looking forward to your posts on corso--i have only read
a few peices of his here and there, mostly the stuff in anthologies.
We're all here to learn, so teach, brother, teach. Teach us about
corso.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:20:01 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Herbert Huncke
Comments: To: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
In-Reply-To: <199711250020.SAA21569@core0.mx.execpc.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
You've also gotta love the last paragraph of its opening chapter:
But I'll tell you straight . . . Well, I obviously won't tell you
straight, because that would be a lie. Except for this business
of methadone, I'd have committed suicide years ago. Right now I'm
living from one day to the next, that's the way I feel. I do love
the world. It really is beautiful, so incredibly beautiful (11).
Those last two lines kill me. I have already read through the book
quickly to get a feel for what he's doing. I could hear it right away.
Huncke like all the other Beats show such love for life and human beings
even in the sordid refuse of society (in Huncke's case _as_ a member of
that so called refuse). But there's something even more special about
Huncke's tales and the way that he tells them: they are nothing but
'straight.' Actually he and Corso both share this majestic quality as
personalities, as narrators and poets. He was, as McClure would call Jack,
the sensorium. Huncke was a genuine aesthete, Lazarus of New York and
Tiresias of its wastelands. Beautiful Huncke has something to tell us. I
can see why Allen, Jack, and Bill hung around the guy. He had the rhythm
and the vision and crystaline humility.
Tristan
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> You just gotta love someone who titles his autobiography "Guilty Of
> Everything"!
>
> Jym
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:43:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:40 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Why am I prolonging this?
>>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
>>with the
>>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
>>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
>
> you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
>thought when i saw the ad too.
>
>
Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:48:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications
Comments: To: letabor@cruzio.com
In a message dated 97-11-24 22:16:44 EST, Leon responded:
<< If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. >>
Leon, I don't think your questions, or your responses, are trivial, and I
hope you don't have the impression that I do. I don't know how you came up
with this impression, since I didn't say it, nor did I think it.
<<I just don't buy your perception that Jack was fair mindedly and in
charge of his mental faculties driven to madness by these mentally ill
others. >>
Nor did I invent or try to convey this "perception." First, I was struck by
how similar his crack-up was to a bad acid trip. That was where I began. I
mentioned Big Sur being a textbook for certain psych courses. I mentioned
that I'd also heard he was suffering from the DTs.
My personal opinion was that he was descending into madness and had a nervous
collapse at the cabin. I don't think he was in charge of his mental faculties
during that crack-up, and never said he was.
I think what might have confused you on this point was the fact that I was
amazed he could write about it accurately (indicating some sort of lucidity
on his part, perhaps) and the fact that he was being exposed to some aberrant
behaviour he found very offensive and frightening from the people he was
socializing with.
I still trust his accounting. I think the combination of ugly, intrusive
fame, his "brother" Tyke dying, his strained relationship with Neal and how
he was foisted off onto Billie, and his revulsion at the lifestyle of the San
Francisco beatnik, along with a good, long bender that included alcohol and
marijuana, pushed him over the edge. But somehow he was able to remember it
or allow some part of himself (through dissociation, perhaps) to witness it,
and write about it.
I sure as hell don't think it's fiction. If I found out it was, my esteem for
jack as a writer would be even higher than it already is, because Big Sur is
an amazing book.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:06:24 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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diane, i find your arguement a compelling addition to leon's post. i
mc
Diane Carter wrote:
> I have read Big Sur. Twice. But given your interpretation, it does make
> me wonder if we're reading the same book. I do believe that Jack's
> writing is true to what he saw happening in his own mind. The middle to
> end of the book is probably one of the best written records ever of
> delirium tremens. But with all your knowledge about alcoholism you fail
> to see how someone writing in this state is suffering from acute delirium
> and paranoia. He writes (on page 191) "...I feel a great ghastly hatred
> of myself and everything, the empty feeling far from being the usual
> relief is now as tho I've been robbed of my spinal power right down the
> middle on purpose by a great witching force--I feel evil forces gathering
> down all around me, from her, the kid, the very walls of the cabin, the
> trees, even the sudden thought of Dave Wain and Romana is evil..." Given
> your literal interpretation, then not only is Billie and the kid and Dave
> and Romana out to get him, but so are the trees and the walls of the
> cabin. You have to see, as Leon accurately has been pointed out as well,
> that anyone in this condition is not exactly in a sound state of mind.
> My assessment of Billie also is much more sympathetic than yours. I
> think (and this is only from what Jack wrote in Big Sur) that she truly
> understood him and wanted to pull him from the brink of self-destruction,
> but even she eventually realizes that he cannot accept her love because
> he cannot love himself. I also do not agree with your assessment of
> alcoholism, "if they could choose to be another way they would," because
> it borders on fringe of saying "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic,"
> and on an even greater scale, that people are powerless to change their
> own lives no matter what kind of emotional trauma they have experienced
> or path they are on. The choice to be otherwise is always there.
> DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:12:27 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: big surLiSizeD without LSD
MIME-Version: 1.0
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not all of the information to assess alcoholism is true for all alcoholics. the
DTs are what i read when the paranoia and the the visions kick in. Big Sur is an
autobiographical novel, meant to be so by it's author. NOT meant or written or
read as a clinical case study. if you believe that jack is writing the literal
truth, then why are you having such a difficult time recognizing the DTs? much
of what he goes through happens to many in the thros of DTs, this coming from
many years of working psych units, caring for end-stage alcoholic people.
mc
You_Be Fine wrote:
> Let's see if I can clarify what I believe:
>
> I believe jack kerouac was an alcoholic, and that it's the nature of an
> alcoholic not to be able to make the healthy choices required for changes.
> This belief of mine is highly personal, but I didn't get words to understand
> or describe it until I entered the world of 12-Step programs 12 years ago.
>
> I believe that jack was highly gifted, and furthermore, that he existed on a
> higher plane of consciousness than most people ever do.
>
> I believe the characters in Big Sur were all based on real people, and that
> jack describes them and their actions accurately, even though he was cracking
> up.
>
> I believe Big Sur is autobiographical. I've never heard any information to
> the contrary, although I have heard jack quoted as saying it was
> autobiographical.
>
> I follow the book quite literally, and with every paragraph, every page I
> turn, what he says makes more sense and rings more true.
>
> Like everyone, my affinity for a certain book is founded on my own
> experience, my own frame of reference. Because I've lived enough of the
> events in Big Sur, I find them all very believable, and jack's telling of
> them reasoned and illuminating.
>
> To me, this book is a masterpiece. I just re-read it on Saturday before
> posting my first comment to the list. I think I'll read it again, and of
> course, I'll be thinking of all your comments while I do.
>
> But I'm not at all comfortable with the idea that Big Sur should be seen as
> literature, as opposed to a case study in a nervous breakdown, lived and
> recounted by the one who experienced it.
>
> Recently I read Sombrero Fallout by Richard Brautigan, and in the main
> subplot (since there are about five plots, I think of them all as subplots,
> but then, I'm no scholar, and proud of that fact; just a reader) what I saw
> was the beginning of the end of Brautigan's life, or as Judith said about Big
> Sur in the first place, "It was like reading a suicide note." I believed
> Brautigan was foreshadowing his own suicide, and the fact that he did
> ultimately die violently at his own hand supports my belief, at least to me.
> What he went through was very familiar to me on a personal level (as a member
> in good standing of the Crack-up Club, along with David Rhaesa and some
> others too shy to talk about it).
>
> Same thing with jack and reading Big Sur. I don't see any reason why I should
> look for metaphor and all those painfully intellectual literary analyses (ew,
> I'm so smart) when the words he wrote are all right there in front of me, in
> perfect order, exactly as he meant for them to be read.
>
> I really believe (and I'm not suggesting anyone who's participated in this
> discussion so far falls into this description) that people are often so
> uncomfortable with "the lunatic ravings" of a holy man, because there is so
> much truth in them, that they need to retreat into rationalization, seeking
> explanations rather than taking what's there on face value.
>
> That's where I'm coming from. I don't try to figure jack out. I just let his
> words transport me there.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:27:38 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: levi's burroughs web site
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to levi and all beats
it's beautifully written, laid out, and comprehensive. so good to see
patricia's gentle and loving accounts and descriptions.
levi where did you get that color that absolutely radiant color photo
that is on the page?
in trying to save the image before making a bookmark, i lost the
address. and your post as well, levi,
could you kindly repost the address of the page?
many thanks
marie c
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:31:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971125003813.08af0b8e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have a pair of Wide Leg Khaki's from the GAP but then again, Ive always
shopped at the GAP and would still shop there even if Kerouac didnt wear
Khakis....
On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Mike Rice wrote:
> At 10:40 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Why am I prolonging this?
> >>I believe the original photo can be found in the booklet that comes
> >>with the
> >>audio set, "The Jack Kerouac Collection"
> >>I'm almost positive that this is the one edited for the Khakis ad.
> >
> > you mean the one with Edie in the background? that's what i
> >thought when i saw the ad too.
> >
> >
>
> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
>
> Mike Rice
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:31:08 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
>
> Mike Rice
not me
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:42:37 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: levi's burroughs web site
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie Countryman wrote:
> could you kindly repost the address of the page?
> many thanks
>
thank you for your kind words on my contribution to Levi page, which is
at
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/
I too was taken by Levi's work, It was a great compilation in an wow
setting. I was very pleased to the inclusion of the carolyn cassady
note, it seemed fitting. It wouldn't really seem to reflect william if
someone hadn't added "I just don't like the guy".
The interview about tangiers struck me as absolutely right, as did the
orgone box in williams back yard. Of all the places william lived
tangiers (in my conversations with william) made some of the strongest
impressions on william. He would talk of the colors, the People (the
bowles were the most striking). One of williams great cats was named
Jane after jane bowles. she was a (the cat)a delicately built calico,
very curous, very sensitive, very clever. I had to learn not to walk
around the house so solidly, she liked nice even entrances. I normally
bound. Oh i digress. The Levi site in total is a work of art and i
have found his explanation of what beat literature is to be excellant.
His use of links are a delight.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:48:21 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971125003813.08af0b8e@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
Actually, if we really wanted to follow the ad and wear khakis because
Jack and Allen did we'd go to the Goodwill and buy them just as they did.
Biggest reason they were worn was they were dirt cheap and pletiful. Also
those were the days when jeans were dungarees and work clothes, not casual
wear.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:19:13 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Big Sur: paranoia
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Here is one passage where my interpretation is that Jack recognizes that
most of what is going on in his head is in fact paranoia and fantasy (and
it occurs early on before the big buildup that takes place in the cabin
where his mental state worsens further).
pg. 116-117
"...But my childhood revery also included the fact that everybody in the
world was making fun of me because they were all members of an eternal
secret society or Heaven society that knew the secret of the world and
were seriously fooling me so I'd wake up and see the light (i.e. become
enlightened, in fact)--So that I, 'Ti Jean,' was the LAST Ti Jean left in
the world, the last poor holy fool, those people at my neck were the
devils of the earth among whom God had cast me, an angel baby, as tho I
was the last Jesus in fact! and all these people were waiting for me to
realize it and wake up and catch them peeking and we'd all laugh in
Heaven suddenly--But animals werent doing that behind my back, my cats
were always adornments licking their paws sadly, and Jesus, he was a sad
witness to this, somewhat like the animals--He wasn't peeking down my
neck--There lies the root of my belief in Jesus--So actually the only
reality in the world was Jesus and the lambs (the animals) and my brother
Gerard who had instructed me--Meanwhile some of the peekers were kindly
and sad, like my father, but had to go along with everybody else in the
same boat--But my waking up would take place and then everything would
vanish except Heaven, which is God--And that was why later in life after
these rather strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that
fainting vision of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it
including Samadhis during Buddhist meditations in the woods, I conceived
of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messanger from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
With all this in my background, now at the point of adulthood disaster
of the soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted
into a fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
and I must have believed it subconsciously because as I say as soon as
Ron Blake left I was well again and in fact content."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:01:13 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications
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-----Original Message-----
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 10:47 PM
Subject: BigSur misconceptions/miscommunications
>In a message dated 97-11-24 22:16:44 EST, Leon responded:
I SAID:
><< If you see my questions as trivial, that is your evaluation. >>
YOU SAID:
>Leon, I don't think your questions, or your responses, are trivial, and I
>hope you don't have the impression that I do. I don't know how you came up
>with this impression, since I didn't say it, nor did I think it.
I SAY:
The impression that you felt my "theory" is trivial xame from this passage:
>Regarding this theory, I really don't see the value in it at all. It feels
>like, for some reason, you're splitting hairs. What are we supposed to
>believe and not believe in Big Sur, or On The Road, or any of jack's books?
Is there another way to interpret it?
If I felt this was some kind of a personal clash, I would have responded by
backchannell. I believe that we are dealing here with sincerely held views
about the book that we are all interested in.
I was questioning the notion that Jack was horrified into madness by the
behavior of his friends, that there was no reason at all to suspect that his
state of mind might have distorted motives and actions of his friends. I was
not questioning Jack's genius. I also have no question that he was writing
about his experience of life, not inventing fiction. He was writing about
how things seemed to him at the time and how he felt about himself.
YOU SAID:
>I think what might have confused you on this point was the fact that I was
>amazed he could write about it accurately (indicating some sort of lucidity
>on his part, perhaps) and the fact that he was being exposed to some
aberrant
>behaviour he found very offensive and frightening from the people he was
>socializing with.
I SAY:
Enough maybe? good enough for me.
Have a happy thanksgiving everyone
leon
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:38:14 +0000
Reply-To: "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@wenet.net>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Nancy J. Peters" <nancyp@WENET.NET>
Organization: CITY LIGHTS BOOKS
Subject: unsubscibe
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"unsubcribe" nancyp@wenet.net
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:39:09 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sara Feustle <sfeustl@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>
Subject: Unsubscribe
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"unsubscribe" sfeustl@uoft02.utoledo.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:20:23 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Big Sur: paranoia
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In a message dated 97-11-25 11:00:16 EST, DC wrote
<<=20
Here is one passage where my interpretation is that Jack recognizes that
most of what is going on in his head is in fact paranoia and fantasy (an=
d
it occurs early on before the big buildup that takes place in the cabin
where his mental state worsens further).
=20
>>
This is an excellent example of why I don't post more often to Beat-L. I
already cited from this long passage in one of my very first posts, but
obviously, Diane Carter didn't read it.
Here are snips from my earliest posts:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I'm happy to stipulate that jack's collapse didn't have anything to do wi=
th
LSD, but was some kind of inner look in midlife where he couldn't deal wi=
th
what he saw.
I sure don't want to overthink this. There are some absolutely tactile im=
ages
in Big Sur, and sometimes I think we overlook the quality of his prose in=
a
book that has so much autobiographical information. We get hung up on "th=
e
story behind the story," and fail to see the beauty.
I was thinking how incredible it was that he had the presence of mind to =
be
aware of what was happening to him, and to write it down so faithfully wh=
en
he was finished cracking up. To me, that is a measure of his inspired sou=
l as
a chosen one, a vessel through which such beauty flows as most ignorant f=
olks
can't really understand. He certainly believed he was inspired:
BUT MY WAKING UP would take place and then everything would vanish except
Heaven, which is God=97And that was why later in life after these rather
strange you must admit childhood reveries, after I had that fainting visi=
on
of the Golden Eternity and others before and after it=85 in the woods, I
conceived of myself as a special solitary angel sent down as a messenger =
from
Heaven to tell everybody or show everybody by example that their peeking
society was actually the Satanic Society and they were all on the wrong
track.
But he saw his weaknesses:
WITH ALL THIS IN MY BACKGROUND, now at the point of adulthood disaster of=
the
soul, through excessive drinking, all this was easily converted into a
fantasy that everybody in the world was witching me to madness:
And maybe drugs were getting to him:
BUT THAT'S NOT the point, about pot paranoia, yet maybe it is at that=97I=
=92ve
long given it up because it bugs me anyway=97
Who knows? He was certainly disillusioned:
=85I USED TO STAND by the windows like this in my childhood and look out =
on
dusky...=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I'm not saying it was drugs, the DTs or some 24-hour virus that got to ja=
ck.
I don't need to reach a conclusion about it. And I don't need to be right=
,
either. jack was about conflict, and he struggled all his life to keep tw=
o
conflicting thoughts in his head simultaneously (see Dharma Bums, Scriptu=
re
of the Golden Eternity, Selected Letters).
As I said, Who knows? I'm not going to put jack in a box and limit the
meaning of his stories with my small imagination. He's the one I'm trying=
to
learn from; I'm not trying to reinvent or teach him.
I was hoping for some good old anti-intellectual, heartfelt sharing from =
list
members who've "been to Big Sur" in their own experiences, not in an
antiseptic dissection of jack kerouac (safe in heaven dead and laughing h=
is
ass off at all of us here) by people who need to reach conclusions.
Hey, has anyone seen that picture of jack in the GAP ads? What do you thi=
nk?
Did someone sell him out? Was that right or wrong? What would jack think?
(hoping you all have a sense of humour.....)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:26:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
>interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
>any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
>so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
>WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
well the ad has a weakness, jack didn't wear GAP khakis, so if
anyone wanted to imitate kerouac they could just go out and buy a pair
of dockers, or whatever.. or, more appropriately, head down to the
nearest salv. army or thrift shop and get whatever you happen to find
there.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:11:09 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: New Yorker Question
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Remember on the 40th anniversary of On the Road the New York Times web site
did a forum on Jack kerouac: Typist or Writer?
There was a post there from September that said:
__________
ermoore <erm@mail.utexas.edu> - 12:19pm Sep 16, 1997 EST (#31 of 58)
For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's never-before-available road
diaries, check out The
New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor, Douglas
Brinkley (author of The
Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published early
correspondence The Proud
Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this epic journal
and will be offering a few
excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New Yorker.
___________________
It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen
anything like this in the New Yorker. Did I miss it or is it still to come
or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.
I'd like to see this. Does anyone know anything about it?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:38:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Yorker Question
In a message dated 97-11-25 15:16:17 EST, Tim wrote:
<< It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen
anything like this in the New Yorker. Did I miss it or is it still to come
or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.
I'd like to see this. Does anyone know anything about it? >>
Paul Maher stays up-to-date on Estate-related things and posts them to his
website: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html,
although I don't know if there's anything specific there about this project.
I believe the excerpts are scheduled to appear in December. You might email
Paul and see if he has an update, or contact the New Yorker.
And let us know. I'm interested in this, too.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:43:54 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: NICOSIA'S ARCHIVES
Comments: cc: GNicosia@earthlink.net
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I've just today received this letter from Gerald Nicosia and believe
that anyone interested in the Beat Generation archives or the Jack
Kerouac archives will be riveted by what this letter has to say. I
think it a shame that one great Kerouac scholar should have to be
persecuted like this (at the expense of ALL Kerouac scholras) for having
stood up for Jan Kerouac and for still standing up for her. Greed is
not the sole quality which should guide whoever it is in the control of
the Kerouac estate.
I am writing to everyone who has supported or shown interest in my work
on Jack Kerouac and my critical biography of Kerouac, "Memory Babe".
The huge amount of research I did on Kerouac's life during the years
1977-1981, including 300 hundred taped interviews and many thousands of
pages of letters and other documents, is in grave danger of being lost
forever. Let me explain.
In 1987, for the very modest fee of $7,500, 1 placed the entire "Memory
Babe" Archive on deposit at the University of Lowell (now called the
University of Massachusetts, Lowell). Since Lowell is Jack Kerouac's
hometown, I assumed the archive would receive maximum exposure there to
scholars, writers, and others interested in studying Kerouac's life and
writings. In fact, when I placed the Memorv Babe archive at the
university, it was done with the stipulation that it be made available
to the public for scholarly study. I also stipulated that the
materials, especially the tapes, be properly cared for.
The unique and precious quality of this material cannot be
overemphasized. Of the 300 people I taped who knew Kerouac, over 100
are now dead. Many of the dead interviewees are major American writers,
such as Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs, Kenneth Rexroth, Robert
Duncan, Bob Kaufman, Ted Berrigan, John Clellon Holmes, Paul Carroll,
Malcolm Cowley, Seymour Krim, Herbert Huncke, and Jan Kerouac. Other
dead interviewees include Kerouac's first two wives, Edie Parker and
Joan Haverty, and close boyhood friends. These interviews can never be
replaced.
The University of Lowell has never copied these tapes on to fresh
cassettes or made any other effort to preserve them, such as
digitalization, despite my complaints about their obvious deterioration
over time. Then, in June, 1995, 1 received a post card from
scholar/professor James Jones that the entire archive was closed to the
public. Mr. Jones wrote: "I just tried to look at the papers you
donated to the University of Lowell, and the librarian in the Mogan
Center told me your collection is closed to the public until the lawsuit
is resolved."
I called Martha Mayo, the librarian, to ask what was going on, and why
Jan Kerouac's lawsuit against the Sampas family, to recover her fathers
papers, should have anything to do with my archives. Ms. Mayo informed
me that John Sampas, the literary executor for Stella Sampas Kerouac's
estate, had complained about people having access to mv collection
without his permission. Mr. Sampas lives in Lowell and has a great deal
of influence there. The library agreed to shut my collection, even
though Mr. Sampas has never demonstrated that he has the legal authority
to keep people from using any of the "Memory Babe" materials for study.
(Legally, he has the right only to keep people from publishing or
broadcasting some of Jack Kerouac's writings without his permission.)
I threatened to make a public issue of the illegal closing of my
archives and was then told--deceptively--by the librarian that the
collection was still open, that she had only restricted the xeroxing of
Jack Kerouac letters. (There are also 2,000 Jack Kerouac letters in
xerox in my collection, more Jack Kerouac letters than in any other spot
on earth.) Several months later, however, I began getting more letters
and calls from scholars who had been turned away from the entire
collection. The university then admitted the collection was indeed
closed.
In effect, this enormous archive of study material on the life of Jack
Kerouac has been permanently buried--and consigned to imminent
destruction, since the life of many of the tapes is at most only a few
more years.
Other libraries, such as the Bancroft in Berkeley and the University of
Texas at Austin, have already expressed their interest in acquiring the
"Memory Babe" archives for the purpose of making it available for
study. But the University of Massachusetts at Lowell will not divest
itself of the archives even if paid back in full the purchasing price.
The University of Massachusetts, Lowell, will not sell the "Memory Babe"
archives, will not properly care for it, and will not show it to
anyone. This is a situation in which everyone is the loser, and most
especially the future generations of scholars and writers who seek
access to a wealth of primary source material on Jack Kerouac.
The University of Massachusefts, Lowell, has left me no choice but to
file a breach of contract suit against them, to recover the "Memory
Babe" archive so that it can be placed in another institution, where it
can be made freely available to the public. An institution not under
the direct influence of Mr. John Sampas. For two years I tried and
failed to put together a pro bono legal team to carry out this suit, but
was unable to do so. I have, however, found a Boston attorney who will
take the case at a considerably reduced rate. But I still need to come
up with a $20,000 retainer, which will also cover filing fees,
depositions, and so forth.
Action must be taken now, or the chance to act will be lost forever. A
statute of limitation is running on fraud and breach of contract--three
years in Massachusetts. That statute will be up in June of 1998. If I
do not take action before then, I will lose forever the legal right to
recover the "Memory Babe" archives
I am asking people to donate as much as they possibly can. I do not
intend to make any money from this legal action whatsoever. My only
goal is to save this huge archive of study materials for posterity.
Every person who donates will receive a receipt for their donation and
an accounting every 6 months of how the money is being spent.
We hope that negative publicity will cause the University of
Massachusetts to settle quickly, to accept payment for the archive and
transfer it directly to me or to another university that offers to
purchase it. If indeed we have to go the distance in trial court and
appellate court, there is still a good chance, if we win, of recouping
legal expenses from the university and/or from the resale of the archive
to another university.
Once this happens, once we win and resell the archive to another
university, all remaining funds, plus any earned, will be returned to
the donors with the aim of fullest possible reimbursement. For example,
if a total of $20,000 was donated, and $20,000 is recovered, everyone
will get 1 00% of their donation back. If only $1 0,000 is recovered
(if, for example, legal fees are not repaid, but we earn $1 0,000
reselling the archive), then every donor will receive back 50% of his
donation.
The "Memory Babe" archive is the largest archive of study materials
concerning Jack Kerouac's life and work anywhere in the world. It can
be saved only with your help. I appeal to you now, with the coming
generations of scholars and writers in mind.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart, for listening and for helping.
Gerald Nicosia
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:56:43 +0900
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Timothy Hoffman <timothy@GOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Yorker Question
In-Reply-To: <199711252011.MAA11998@hsc.usc.edu>
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>For anyone interested in a glimpse of Kerouac's never-before-available road
>diaries, check out The
>New Yorker in the coming weeks. Kerouac's literary executor, Douglas
>Brinkley (author of The
>Majic Bus and editor of Hunter S. Thompson's recently published early
>correspondence The Proud
>Highway, among other things), is going to edit and publish this epic journal
>and will be offering a few
>excerpts from the diaries in an upcoming issue of The New Yorker.
>
>___________________
>
>It's been more than two months this this post and I sure haven't seen
>anything like this in the New Yorker. Did I miss it or is it still to come
>or is this the publishing equivalent of vaporware.
I'm also wondering about the publication of these excerpts. I live
outside of Nagoya a couple of hours, and have been sneaking away on Sunday
mornings on the train to the city where the English language
books/magazines are sold to see if it's come out yet. I feared I had missed
it. Can anyone provide the issue date of the magazine? Or has its
publication been postponed?
:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::===:::
Timothy Hoffman
Komaki English Teaching Center (KETC)
Komaki Shiminkaikan, KETC
2-107 Komaki
Komaki, Aichi 485
work (0568) 76-0905
fax (0568) 77-8207
home (0568)72-3549
timothy@gol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:04:39 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <347A5130.177B@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
g'day all,
as i've just joined, i thought i'd just briefly introduce myself.
i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when
as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of
the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!
jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got
my attention. later as a lawstudent at university, i was blessed to find
one wintry morning a whole assortment of city lights publications out on
sale at a ridiculously reduced rate- i picked up as many as i could afford,
including some now hard to find here like Scripture of the Golden Eternity
by K, and The First Third by Neal Cassady. ( I got Mexico City Blues too,
but that vanished long a go at one of /those/ parties)
in the last 30 years i have also amassed a lot of cuttings and articles - i
hope to start learning more here of course.............
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:13:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Aronowitz/Nicosia
Waiting for the other shoe to drop...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:19:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Memory babe Archive - Al Aronowitz post correction
In-Reply-To: <347B388A.1A5F@bigmagic.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Friends:
Please make the following correction before you pass Al's post on to friends.
In the third from the last paragragraph:
***
Instead of contributors receiving an accounting EVERY SIX MONTHS they will
be informed of EXACTLY how the money is used.They will NOT receive an
accounting every six months simply becauase that could become expensive and
time consuming. There is an incredible amount of work to do and not much
time to do it in.
***
By Thanksgiving Day (maybe I'll have it up by 11-26-97) there will be a
notice at http://www.bookzen.com detailing the following fundraiser to help
Gerry Nicosia recover the Memory babe Archive from the University of
Massachusetts.
A broadside (picture of Jan Kerouac at her father's grave and a poem by Jan
titled "Natasha") along with an Incredible Librarian T-Shirt will be given
to anyone who makes a contribution. For the T-Shirt alone $25. For the
boardside alone $25. For both $45. For any of the three please add $5 for
the cost of shipping the poster and t -shirt in a substantial tube.
As many Beats and friends of Jan know, Natasha was the stillborn daughter
Jan lost in Mexico when she was 16. On her way to Mexico Jan had stopped
and visited with her dad. He instructed her to use the name Kerouac and to
write. The photograph of Jan was taken by Chris Felver and printed by White
Fields Press. The photographer has signed the broadside. As Jan's literary
executor Gerry Nicosia has given permission to use Jan's picture and the
poem Jan wrote to the still-born child that would have been Jack's
granddaughter. I have asked Gerry if he would also sign the broadside if
anyone wanted him to do so. He said he would.
Contributions can be sent to:
Gerry Nicosia
SAVE THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVE
PO Box 130
Corte Madera CA 94976-0130
(415) 924-2270 (phone/fax)
The t-shirts are cotton, sizes Medium, Large and X-Large. The art is four
color on the front and shows the Incredible Librarian flying.
Below her image is "Guardian de la Sabidoria - Keeper of Knowledge.
On the back is:
"In the defense of freedom and literacy libraries are the most powerful
weapon we have. Use them!"
These t-shirts were originally created, as was the character The Incredible
Librarian, because of the desperate need for more preservation labs and for
more trained preservation librarians.
These are very high quality t-shirts. I have one test shirt that I have
machine washed in hot water over 300 times. The art is clear,the shirt
strong. No tears, no threads arond the edges.
$2000.00 worth of these t-shirts are being donated by BookZen and Mica
Press to help recover the Memory Babe Archives from the University of
Massachusetts.
I will provide an address for the web site, with all of the art and
information, by tomorrow.
I would appeciate it if contributors allow me to post their names on the
web site that will track tis effort to recover and preseve the Memory Babe
Archive.
Thanks.
j grant
Small Press Publishers and Authors
Display Books Free At BookZen
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
http://www.bookzen.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Before you reach into your pocket...
Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before
you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass
Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward
relinquishing these papers?
Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in
fact, they are.
They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought
it, fair and square.
With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of
the story.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971125215441_-388719893@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:54:42 You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM> wrote:
>Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before
>you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass
>Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward
>relinquishing these papers?
>
>Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in
>fact, they are.
>
>They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought
>it, fair and square.
>
>With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of
>the story.
Interesting post You_Be Fine,
Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
dollars? Do you think anyone would donate $2000.00 worth of T-Shirts to
assist in such a thing?
Were I a cautious person like yourself You-Be-Fine-AngelMindz, I would be
on the phone to the American Library Association asking them to
investigate. The following will save you time:
American Library Association
50 E Huron St.
Chicago, IL
1-800-545-2433
1-312-944-6780
Do the same with the Massachusetts Library Association and the Library
Association in your state Contact the organizations made up of Preservation
Librarians within the ALA. Do a blanket canvas of the Preservation
Librarian groups in all the states. Before this is over every librarian in
North America is going to have insights into how the U MASS cares for
valuable collections. As will academics, writers, poets and others who have
archives that might, under ordinary circumstances, be given or sold to the
U MASS.
The Special Collections librarian at U MASS Lowell is going to find out
that the position of Special Collections librarian comes with the
obligation to care for the collections. Nothing is more important than
PRESERVATION. To not PRESERVE is a betrayal of the most serious kine.
Materials that have been entrusted to a university are deteriorating and
incredibly valuable information is being lost--NEVER TO BE RECOVERED.
As for asking them what their position is on reliquishing the Memory Babe
Archive, read the post. They refuse to do so. They refuse to accept what
they paid for it so the collection can be placed in a library that cares
for archived materials.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 03:56:41 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
welcome John. how bout telling us about thos articles you have? ciao,
sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of John Pullicino
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 5:04 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: allow me to...
g'day all,
as i've just joined, i thought i'd just briefly introduce myself.
i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when
as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of
the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!
jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got
my attention. later as a lawstudent at university, i was blessed to find
one wintry morning a whole assortment of city lights publications out on
sale at a ridiculously reduced rate- i picked up as many as i could afford,
including some now hard to find here like Scripture of the Golden Eternity
by K, and The First Third by Neal Cassady. ( I got Mexico City Blues too,
but that vanished long a go at one of /those/ parties)
in the last 30 years i have also amassed a lot of cuttings and articles - i
hope to start learning more here of course.............
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:25:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You_Be Fine wrote:
>
> Regarding the fundraising campaign launched by Gerry Nicosia, et. al., before
> you make a donation, don't you think it would be a good idea to ask the UMass
> Lowell Library for a comment, as well as what their position would be toward
> relinquishing these papers?
>
> Another good question would be to ask them why they are reluctant, if in
> fact, they are.
>
> They are not required to sell it, by law or for any other reason. They bought
> it, fair and square.
>
> With all due respect toward Gerald Nicosia, I want to hear the other side of
> the story.
with all due respect, why don't you do this. and lets us all tred very
carefully. as i don't want to hear the other shoe drop until after the
dreaded holidays are over. i need my beat-l hey did you guys look at
what levi has done as a memorial to william.. he used my bardo peice
and never did it work as well. great exciting people we have on beat-l
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/SlicedBardo/
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:27:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: On The Road to Big Sur
Seems like all of jack's books connect to his other books... so I picked up
my copy of "Trip Trap" (Grey Fox Press 1973), which isn't strictly a kerouac
book, since it's coauthored by Lew Welch (Dave Wain in Big Sur) and Albert
Saijo (George Baso 'the little Japanese Zen master hepcat'), and was
published after jack had died and Lew had disappeared, assumed dead...
Albert wrote the first piece, "A Recollection," about the road trip he, Lew
and Jack took from San Francisco to New York the Thanksgiving before Big Sur,
and his return with Lew to Hyphen-House, their collective house "on the
northwest corner of Post and Buchanan in San Francisco." He tells about the
kitchen table where he gathered with housemates Les Thompson, Tom Fields,
Philip Whalen, John Blaise, and Lew, and how jack arrived there in November
of 1959, "at the height of his fame... drinking heavy, but he appeared to be
on a binge and determined to party on. He never lacked company. His celebrity
drew company."
Housemates and company gathered around the kitchen table for "plain quiet
talk or boozing and howling," and Albert adds, "It was as Jack described it
in the beautifully sustained prose of his book of suffering, Big Sur." jack
said: "It's an old roominghouse of four stories on the edge of the Negro
district of San Francisco where... [they] all live in different rooms with
their clutter of rucksacks and floor mattresses and books and gear, each one
taking turns one day a week to go out and do all the shopping and come back
and cook up a big communal dinner in the kitchen."
Albert was very aware of jack's declining mental state that November,
foreshadowing the August crackup at Big Sur, observing how "The mornings
after were deathly quiet. Jack would get up with a look in his eyes verging
on the dead eye look of metabolic extremity and smile a ruined hungover
smile. You understood then that his drinking was some kind of penance he had
put on himself to do in a Mexican Indian Catholic way, and it brought to mind
the 51st Psalm that begins, 'Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy
lovingkindness...' Penance for what? God only knows, but why else did he do
it? Sacrifice himself to juice. When he drank it was like he tore open his
breast with his bare hands to show God his pure beating heart."
So I went back to Big Sur (the book, not the location) with the addition of
Albert's information, and read some passages over again, and saw the whole
crack-up a little more deeply, and certainly, more spiritually. "So easy in
the woods to daydream and pray to the local spirits and say, 'Allow me to
stay here, I only want peace' and those foggy peaks answer back mutely
Yes--And to say to yourself (if you're like me with theological
preoccupations) (at least at that time, before I went mad and still had such
preoccupations) 'God who is everything possesses the eye of the awakening,
like dreaming a long dream of an impossible task and you wake up in in a
flash, oops, No Task, it's done and gone'--"
Seemed like part of the tapestry of madness jack was being woven into
involved a serious questioning of his faith in a God of some sort. He
isolates this ambivalence as the beginning of his crack-up: "The sea seems to
yell to me GO TO YOUR DESIRE DONT HAND AROUND HERE-- For after all the sea
must be like God, God isnt asking us to mope and suffer and sit by the sea in
the cold at midnight for the sake of writing down useless sounds, he gave us
the tools of self reliance after all to make it straight thru bad life
mortality towards Paradise maybe I hope--But some miserables like me dont
even know it, when it comes to us we're amazed--Ah, life is a gate, a way, a
path to Paradise anyway, why not live for fun and joy and love or some sort
of girl by a fireside, why not go to your desire and LAUGH...but I ran away
from that seashore and never came back again without that secret knowledge:
that it didnt want me there, that I was a fool to sit there in the first
place, the sea has its waves, the man has his fireside, period.
That being the first indication of my later flip--"
Backing up, being aware of list-members' comments about the DTs and what jack
experienced at Big Sur, I was also newly aware of this passage he wrote
describing the skid road hotel room he checked into when he first arrived,
before he hooked up with Monsanto (Ferlinghetti): "But the rucksack sits
hopefully in a strewn mess of bottles all empty, empty poorboys of white
port, butts, junk, horror... 'One fast move or I'm gone,' I realize, gone the
way of the last three years of drunken hopelessness which is a physical and
metaphysical hopelessness you cant learn in school no matter how many books
on existentialism or pessimism you read, or how many jugs of vision-producing
Ayahuasca you drink, or Mescaline take, or Peyote goop up with--That feeling
when you wake up with the delirium tremens with the _fear_ of eerie death
dripping from your ears like those special heavy cobwebs spiders weave in the
hot countries..." I found myself wondering what kind of "junk" he was
referring to here, and certainly interested in all his references to
psychedelics.
Back in Trip Trap, Albert had mentioned, as part of his description of
goings-on at the kitchen table, "It was before acid, there was occasionally
peyote and some grass." That really caused me to wonder once again about the
nature of jack's very psychedelic (to me) crack-up.
Albert also observed, remembering the 1959 visit to jack's home in Northport,
that "When he was here at home, safe, relaxed, unharassed, the famous author
bullshit set aside, you could see the great beauty and sweetness of his
character." But away from the security of his home, it was entirely another
story.
Side note: In Northport, after the Thanksgiving 1959 road trip, jack showed
Lew and Albert something special: "He showed us a manuscript of his notes,
jottings, and text on Buddhism. The extent of his study was quite impressive.
I don't believe any part of this manuscript has ever been published."
That reminded me of his 'Tao on the Toilet,' which Adrien posted to the list
a few days ago with the subject line, "A little too much of the dharma..."
'A wellknown truth in every private heart
in this long night of life:
A big defecation leaves nothing to be wiped,
A small one, there's no wiping it.
This is Jean-Louis' Tao on the Toilet' (p.220)
Hilariously enough, the origins of this anal thinking, as well as the
treatise on "dirty azzoles," are found in Trip Trap within the poem jack
wrote jointly with Lew Welch, titled "This Is What It's Called." And you may
learn a bit more than you want to know about Peter Orlovsky's bowel habits in
Albert's accounting, as well.
Trip Trap is a great book to read before or after or even DURING Big Sur. And
for all the discussion on the list about Big Sur in the last few days, I hope
those who haven't read it will now feel compelled to do so. It is an amazing
book.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:53:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
<<
Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
dollars? >>
Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
frivolous to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:05:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In a message dated 97-11-25 23:45:38 EST, you write:
<<
with all due respect, why don't you do this. and lets us all tred very
carefully. as i don't want to hear the other shoe drop until after the
dreaded holidays are over. i need my beat-l >>
I'm not interested in the subject and don't want to spend the time. I want to
talk about jack. and yeah, I saw that site at Levi's and it's
GRRRRRRRRRR-EAT!
I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
AFTER the holidays.
Are you with me? Ho-ho-ho!!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:11:57 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
if the seller stipulated things, agreement upon which the sale was contingent,
and the purchaser defaults, then the purchaser is in breach of contract.
aside from that, YBF, a library is a public place, funded publicly, for public
use. it has a public responsibility to properly care for the items it has
procured with public funds. it also cannot withhold any but extremely
valuable items from its users - and even those are made available to
professionals of good scholarly repute, for study. if the library is not
doing the above, then it is failing in its public trust and should be divested
of anything which is being handled in a contrary manner.
ciao, sherri
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of You_Be Fine
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 8:53 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
<<
Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
dollars? >>
Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
frivolous to me.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:14:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: delete
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
delete
is it beat to delete
i can throw a book away if
it is missing a soul.
do books have souls. do they go to heavon.
if i hit the numbers man
i would buy old tapes of william
crooning on to me of what it was to know
and kick around with jack and allen.
how spare ass annie
leaning on a lampost
looked to allen.
on the corner of newyork.
the agony of watching
jack loose interest in talking,
over lunch, dead at 11:am
i would hike over brooklyn bridge
into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.
If the number man would give me copies
of allen, squeezing his penis gently in
overflowing joy.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:45:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Estate Debate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not since the OJ trial have I wished so much for a gag order.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:37:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: On The Road to Big Sur - Trip Trap
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You do be fine "You-be-fine"...
Thanks very much for the lengthy post about "Trip Trap". I've tended
almost uniformly to take a pass on the philosophical threads/posts that have
been going by. Something about yours grabbed me, perhaps because it was tied
to real people's reports of the events around their lives. I will look for
"Trip Trap." Thanks again.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:10:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971125235315_1672083065@mrin41.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
>
><<
> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
> against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
> dollars? >>
>
>Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
>was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
>a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
>frivolous to me.
There are hundreds of taped interviews that will be lost, forever, if
preservation measures are not taken to save the tapes. These are interviews
with people who knew Jack Keroauc intimately, Burroughs was interviewed,
many other writers, Kerouac's wives and lovers, very close women and men
friends. To many people this information is so important that considerable
time and money will be spent insuring that the collection is removed from U
Mass, Lowell to a library that has a presevation lab and preservation
librarians who work hard to preserve collections that have been placed in
their care--entrusted to them.
I don't want to get into a big thing over this, but I feel very strongly
about the conservation and preservation of historic documents--particularly
material that is stored in or on unstable material. The life of magnetic
tape is short. Everyone knows this. We simply cannot allow the information
on those tapes to be lost.
Forget about the tapes in the Memory Babe Archive for a minute.and let me
mention another project so you don't think Memory Babe is the only
information I'm concerned about. Wisconsin has the second largest
population of Hmong in the U.S. These remarkable people arrived here
without any history other than their stories. Their history is passed down
generation to generation verbally--it is not written. Cultural shock is
taking a terrible toll of these people--particularly the seniors. The
seniors carry the history in their minds. Everytime one of them dies they
lose, WE LOSE, Hmong history. Can you imagine not having a history. Not
knowing the what, where, why, when and how of yourself, your parents, your
grandparents? No serious, concentrated effort is being made to record the
history of the Hmong. To most is seems unimportant. It demands an
expenditure of funds states do not feel they can spend. Taxpayers are
reluctant. Not a good situation. What should be done to preserve this
history?
Is it as important as the travels of Lewis and Clark? The Vietnam War. My
Lai. Two New Jersey teen agers commiting suicide to protest a war. Letters
your grandmother wrote. An old diary.
What should be done to preserve the scattered fragments of Bukowski,
Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac, and hundreds of others--some minor, some
major. Little things here and there. A note. A few words. What Ginsberg
said about Nicosia while we were talking one evening. A few words while
autographing his high schol yearbook picture for me. Fragments. Safe.
Preserved.
The work to raise money to save this archive is simply that. To save
information that someone, someday, will use. A small bit of information
that helps form a link to another little piece of information and another
and another and another and we learn.
Just the tid-bits one picks up on this list are sometimes mind-blowing.
Example.
Today I added a picture of Meridel LeSueur to the page that has information
about the last book she wrote at age 93. The Dread Road. The picture was a
quick snapshop Charlie Plymell took of Meridel in an elevator at Westbeth,
an artist commune in NYC over ten years ago. Plymell learned of my interest
in Meridel on this list. Meridel was in NYC for the book publishing
gathering the Feminist Press was having for the anthology of Meridel's work
"RIPENING: The Writings of Meridel LeSueur.... " She invited Plymell to
the gathering. An incredible book.. A picture from Plymell to BookZen to
the World Wide Web. From me to the Minnesota Historical Society, with a
copy going to Special Collection at the University if Iowa. Is this picture
important? Are Plymell's notes on the meeting important? Is the
conversation he and Meridel had that day important? Are Meridel's notes
about the meeting with Plymell important. When compared fifty years from
now what will some researcher discover about these two remarkable
observers. Hundreds of her notebooks are slowly being transcribed.
Important? To some people yes. To students studying the Great Depression
Meridel's notes, fiction, poetry, recorded words are priceless. What did
Meridel pass on to one of her grandchildren who put together the first
Native American radio station on an Indian reservation?
Her notes will tell us...something. But they have to be preserved, cared
for, cherished. Preservation Librarians and others, do that--preserve
information.
Please people, just let this thing happen. Please understand that what this
is about is saving information that, since you are into Beat History,
should be as important to you as it is to the person who gathered the
information, and the people who want to study the information.
Sorry for the length of this post. So scattered. Fragmented. Too tired to
dig in and edit. My much better half, a preservation librarian, would have
said it better while being appalled that it needed saying at all.
This is it. Nothing more from me.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:00:58 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Lachlan Jobbins <hipster66@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Herbert Huncke
Content-Type: text/plain
Has anyone picked up the new(ish) 'herbert huncke reader'?
Having just received it from barnes and noble the other day I am
thoroughly enjoying what I have read so far. Huncke has several short
pieces in Charters' 'Portable Beat reader' but these I think fail to
represent the overall quality of his work. When I first tried to find
Huncke's Journal, The Evening Sun Turned Crimson and Guilty of
Everything I was disappointed to find them all out of print.
This collection includes large sections from these books as well as
other uncollected material. Perhaps we could start a new
thread/discussion? Personally I'm very impressed with the combination of
existentialist thought and fiendish behaviour in what I've read so far.
Huncke is easily as perceptive a reporter as John Clellon Holmes
(another whom I have a great respect for), and in many ways I think his
engagement with his subject equals that of Kerouac.
Just a thought, 'cos I haven't seen him mentioned for a while.
Love to hear your thoughts.
Lachlan.
P.S.: Has anyone got a copy of Lawrence Lipton's 'The Holy Barbarians'
for sale? I read it last year in a library and would like to get my
hands on a copy for keeps. Thanks. L.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:35:06 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: delete
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
beautiful and very pertinent for the time, patricia; i too don't want
the list to dive back into the debate. i think it is beat to delete, and
rather than stoke the fires, i will do so.
you shed light in the darkness and lay a balm on me(i would hope on all)
today as i write this i am listening to jack reciting, right now he is
asking buddhacharlieparker to 'lay a balm on us all.
have a good holiday,
patricia. the list needs your quiet soul and your tender love for
william, for all.
thankyou
mc
Patricia Elliott wrote:
> delete
> is it beat to delete
> i can throw a book away if
> it is missing a soul.
> do books have souls. do they go to heavon.
> if i hit the numbers man
> i would buy old tapes of william
> crooning on to me of what it was to know
> and kick around with jack and allen.
> how spare ass annie
> leaning on a lampost
> looked to allen.
> on the corner of newyork.
> the agony of watching
> jack loose interest in talking,
> over lunch, dead at 11:am
> i would hike over brooklyn bridge
> into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.
> If the number man would give me copies
> of allen, squeezing his penis gently in
> overflowing joy.
> p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:38:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971125235315_1672083065@mrin41.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I agree wholeheartedly. From what I hear, UMass is usually pretty good at
preserving its archives. For everyone's peace of mind, before donating
the money for a lousy tshirt, check out UMass on your own.
On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, You_Be Fine wrote:
> In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
>
> <<
> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
> against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
> dollars? >>
>
> Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
> was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
> a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
> frivolous to me.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:43:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: delete
In-Reply-To: <347BB028.78F@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Exquisite Patricia.
j grant
>delete
>is it beat to delete
>i can throw a book away if
>it is missing a soul.
>do books have souls. do they go to heavon.
> if i hit the numbers man
>i would buy old tapes of william
>crooning on to me of what it was to know
>and kick around with jack and allen.
> how spare ass annie
>leaning on a lampost
>looked to allen.
>on the corner of newyork.
>the agony of watching
>jack loose interest in talking,
>over lunch, dead at 11:am
>i would hike over brooklyn bridge
>into a cool blue roofed room in tangiers.
>If the number man would give me copies
>of allen, squeezing his penis gently in
>overflowing joy.
>p
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:43:05 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <971126000555_-255281152@mrin83.mail.aol.com> from "You_Be Fine"
at Nov 26, 97 00:05:55 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
> AFTER the holidays.
I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
> I'm not interested in the subject and don't want to spend the time. I want to
> talk about jack. and yeah, I saw that site at Levi's and it's
> GRRRRRRRRRR-EAT!
Thanks, and thanks to everybody who said they liked it. Well,
BEAT-L is a great place to find material (thanks again Patricia),
and I just hope it stays that way.
Also by the way for anybody who's around New York City next Tuesday,
I'm going to be debuting a few minutes from the secret project I've
been working on for over a year, a digital movie version of
Dostoevsky's "Notes From Underground" updated to take place in
modern-day Manhattan. It's strange as hell, and that's all I
can say. Anyway this'll be part of a web writer's reading
at 7pm December 2nd at 678 Broadway (near 4th Street), and
is being arranged by my friend Xander Mellish (more info at
http://www.xmel.com/webwriters.html).
Okay, enough plugging ... thanks again for all the nice words
about "Sliced Bardo" ... happy thanksgiving everybody.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:21:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "THE SNARK IS A BOOJUM...." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Burroughs archives
For those of you who were interested in the Burroughs archives at Ohio State
University, I may have some information for you soon.James Grauerholz called me
up and asked if I wanted to do some photo reasearch for a new biography on
Burroughs.Of course I said yes, so I hope to begin soon.The book will be pub-
lished by the Bloomsbury Press, same as did the Kerouac book; ANGLEHEADED
HIPSTER. As soon as I know more, I will pass it on to everyone.
Don't forget to read WSB's Thanksgiving Prayer before dinner tomorrow.
---Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) - The FREE way to
access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
Bill Gargan and Beat-L,
If any of my regular correspondents have been wondering where I have gone--I
have suffered a computer crash. Am now trying to catch up at my fathers--all
459 messages! I'll be back, ready or not.
Bill--I don't have the "unsubscribe" address. Could you unsub me until I can
start dealing with this mail flow?
Meanwhile. If anyone truly wants to reach me it will require a
call--650-365-6312.
Happy Thanksgiving.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:55:57 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11:53 PM 11/25/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-25 23:43:17 EST, you write:
>
><<
> Do you really think anyone would go to the trouble of filing a law suit
> against a major university to rip people off for some donations? Do you
> think a respected writer would engage in such a fraud for a few thousand
> dollars? >>
>
>Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
>was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
>a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
>frivolous to me.
>
>
The 20K retainer is for legal fess. Sad isn't it that lawyer fees are worth
more than historical documents and interviews.
But on the other hand it is not sad. It doesn't matter how much they can
fetch (eg $7500) what matters is their interest. I believe in preservation
of things. That ostensibly is what libraries should do. In terms of the
Lowell Library's side of it I am waiting for you to talk to them and let us
know.
One comment I have is what about the publisher of Memory Babe. I would hope
they might take an interest in these documents and hopefully would be
interested in provided funding.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:02:36 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
>> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
>> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
>> AFTER the holidays.
>
>I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
I love the archive debates.
(And I am not a participant in them--I have no vested interest at all).
I would say that this plea by You_be_Fine would carry a little more weight
if he wasn't the one who cast the first stone (and answered the first return
volley as well).
He starts a flame war and then starts saying "let's not have a flame war."
You_Be_Fine, your posts on Kerouac's writings are really good and full of
info and familiarity and knowledge. I enjoy them.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:15:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In a message dated 97-11-25 08:48:57 EST, you write:
<<
> Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
>
> Mike Rice
>>
"Not I," said the fly...
-LD
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:47:58 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 01:15 PM 11/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-25 08:48:57 EST, you write:
>
><<
> > Has anyone actually bought a pair of GAP khakis. It would be
> > interesting to discover whether this ad campaign actually did
> > any good. After all, we're all Jack cognescenti, at a minimum,
> > so did any of us right down and get a pair of Jack GAP Khaks?
> > WAiting to hear from the 250 of anyone bit on the bait.
> >
> > Mike Rice
Yes as soon as i saw this ad i immediately walked to my car and drove to the
mall.
It was 6 am in the morning and i was not yet dressed but i was compelled I
waited for 4 hours outside the little gratelike protective door until an
employee came and unlocked the bottom of it and pulled the grate up
chukkachukkahcukka
i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my
credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my
arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.
Khakis i said
khakis
use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all
khakis
to make a long story short:
GAP Khakis 8 bucks apiece 5 for 35 20 for 125
email me shipping paid at my end
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:13:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800 from
<stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Happy Thanksgiving, James. Sorry to hear about your computer problem. I've de
leted you from the list. You can resubscribe or email me when you're ready and
I'll put you back on.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:39:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Before you reach into your pocket...
In-Reply-To: <199711261802.KAA13431@hsc.usc.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
>>> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
>>> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
>>> AFTER the holidays.
>>
>>I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
>
>
>I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
>
>I love the archive debates.
>
>(And I am not a participant in them--I have no vested interest at all).
>
>I would say that this plea by You_be_Fine would carry a little more weight
>if he wasn't the one who cast the first stone (and answered the first return
>volley as well).
>
>He starts a flame war and then starts saying "let's not have a flame war."
>
>You_Be_Fine, your posts on Kerouac's writings are really good and full of
>info and familiarity and knowledge. I enjoy them.
I must have missed something. I cannot remember seeing anything resembling
a flame from a pro-preservation post. If there has been I'd appreciate
having them forwarded to me because that is a waste of time and energy.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line by 11-27-97
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:45:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Lawlor, William" <wlawlor@UWSP.EDU>
Subject: montgomery, john
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Ah, friends, is it true that John Montgomery died in 1993?
And that new book on Beat women from Serpent's Tail! In what city does
that press exist? and is the book a 1997 publication?
Best,
Bill of the North Woods
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:59:39 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill Gargan and Beat-L
Content-Type: text/plain
>Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:00 -0800
>Reply-To:stauffer@PACBELL.NET
>From: James Stauffer <>
>Subject: Birthday Bash
>Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) - The
FREE way to
> access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere!
>
If I don't get an answer from you I will call you this evening. I
thought I would give it a try since MailStart works like Hot Mail which
I am using from a computer at work right now.
On Saturday December 6 at 9 p.m. ther will be a surprise birthday party
for Ramah Downtown San Jose at the Germania. I hope you can make it. It
should be fun.
I guess a computer crash is a minor disaster these days. Hopefully you
are on your way to recovery.
Happy Thanksgiving
leon
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:29:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Serpent's Tail ...and montgomery, john
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi all,
I'll let someone else speak to the John Montgomery question.
Regarding the Serpent's Tail book - a gift from my first born on my
birthday a few weeks ago - it is excellent. I've been meaning to post about
it and must have missed any earlier posts about it. My copy was bought here
in Montreal, editor Richard Peabody, High Risk / Serpent'ss Tail books,
published in 1997, London and New York, web site www.serpentstail.com.
A wonderful range of memoir extracts, poetry, and reportage with
nice punchy little bios of the players at the back. Really expanded my
knowledge and appreciateion of these writers, particularly Hettie Jones, Jan
Kerouac, Carolyn Cassady, Joan Haverty Kerouac, Mimi Albert, Diane Di
Prima....all of them and I haven't even dealt with the poetry yet!
Recommended. I really raced through the prose parts.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:32:53 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow not to
> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the controversial
> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last year until
> >> AFTER the holidays.
> >
> >I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
>
> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
> _________
easter 1916i have met them at close of day
coming with vivid faces
from counter or desk among grey
eighteenth-century houses.
i have passed with a nod of the head
or polite meaningless words,
or have lingered a while and said
polite meaningless words,
and thought before i had done
of a mocking tale or a gibe
to please a companion
around the fire at the club,
being certain that they and i
but lived where motley is worn:
all changed, changed utterly:
a terrible beauty is born.
that woman's days were spent
in ignorant good-will,
her nights in argument
until her voice grew shrill.
what voice more sweet than hers
when, young and beautiful,
she rode to harriers?
this man had kept a school
and rode our winged horse;
this other his helper and friend
was coming into his force;
he might have won fame in the end,
so sensitive his nature seemed,
so daring and sweet his thought.
this other man i had dreamed
a drunken, vainglorious lout.
he had done most bitter wrong
to someone near my heart,'
yet i number him in the song;
he , too, has resigned his part
in the casual comedy;
he, too, has been changed in his turn,
transformed utterly:
a terrible beauty is born.
hearts with one purpose alone
through summer and winter seem
enchanted to a stone
to trouble the living stream.
the horse that comes from the road,
the rider, the birds that range
from cloud to tumbling cloud,
minute by minute they change;
a shadow of cloud on the stream
changes minute by minute;
a horse-hoof slides on the brim,
and a horse plashes within it;
the long-legged moor-hens dive,
the long-legged moor-cocks call;
miute by minute they live:
the stone's in the midst of it all.
too long a sacrifice
can make a stone of the heart.
o when may it suffice?
that is heaven's part, our part
to murmur name upon name,
as a mother names her child
when sleep at last has come
on limbs that had run wild.
what is it but nightffall?
no, no, not night but death;
was it needless death after all?
for england may keep faith
for all that is done and said.
we know their dream; enough
to know they dream and are dead:
and what if excess of love
bewildered them till they died?
i write it out in a verse-
MacDonagh and MacBride
and Connolly and Pearse
now and in time to be
wherever green is worn,
all changed, changed utterly:
a terrible beauty is born.
an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at least
here, in beat-l
have a great day all
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:27:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
In a message dated 97-11-26 14:19:04 EST, you write:
<<
i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my
credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my
arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.
Khakis i said
khakis
use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all
khakis
>>
absolutely fucken hilarious, tim! do you take mastercard?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:50:17 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU> says:
>g'day all,
>
[snip]
>i've been an avid reader of kerouac and other beat writers since 1965 when
>as a schoolboy i came across a hardback edition of 'on the road' in one of
>the secondhand bookstores i used to haunt - i think it was the 'girls!
>jazz! booze!' on the cover (predating 'sex'n'drugs'nrock'nroll?) that got
>my attention. learning more here of course.............
[snip]
john, the same feeling for me, thinking about "on the road".
i think back over the past, and remember the on the road as
a story of a salesman (death of a salesman). the american way
of life, religious of course, but keen competition and no
pity for the loser. (Sur...
saluti, rinaldo.
p.s. techno pun nostalgia, the Amiga 1000 was my first serious
puter. i brought it on autumn 1986. now it's gone but a tear
was/is on my eyes...
(to everyone, please excuse me for the digression),
r.
>--
>bye for now,
>#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
>(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
>#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:15:47 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Stuck Inside of Mobile
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
http://bob.nbr.no/dok/bdx/stuck.html
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:50:06 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCFA7A.965C0B60"
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utterly beautiful marie. thanks for posting this. i vote yes as well. =
this is a time of year when all should be gentle and easy and enjoy. i =
believe the center will hold.
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!!
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM
Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
>Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
>> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow =
not to
>> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the =
controversial
>> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last =
year until
>> >> AFTER the holidays.
>> >
>> >I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
>>
>> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
>> _________
>
>easter 1916i have met them at close of day
>coming with vivid faces
>from counter or desk among grey
>eighteenth-century houses.
>i have passed with a nod of the head
>or polite meaningless words,
>or have lingered a while and said
>polite meaningless words,
>and thought before i had done
>of a mocking tale or a gibe
>to please a companion
>around the fire at the club,
>being certain that they and i
>but lived where motley is worn:
>all changed, changed utterly:
>a terrible beauty is born.
>
>that woman's days were spent
>in ignorant good-will,
>her nights in argument
>until her voice grew shrill.
>what voice more sweet than hers
>when, young and beautiful,
>she rode to harriers?
>this man had kept a school
>and rode our winged horse;
>this other his helper and friend
>was coming into his force;
>he might have won fame in the end,
>so sensitive his nature seemed,
>so daring and sweet his thought.
>
>this other man i had dreamed
>a drunken, vainglorious lout.
>he had done most bitter wrong
>to someone near my heart,'
>yet i number him in the song;
>he , too, has resigned his part
>in the casual comedy;
>he, too, has been changed in his turn,
>transformed utterly:
>a terrible beauty is born.
>
>hearts with one purpose alone
>through summer and winter seem
>enchanted to a stone
>to trouble the living stream.
>the horse that comes from the road,
>the rider, the birds that range
>from cloud to tumbling cloud,
>minute by minute they change;
>a shadow of cloud on the stream
>changes minute by minute;
>a horse-hoof slides on the brim,
>and a horse plashes within it;
>the long-legged moor-hens dive,
>the long-legged moor-cocks call;
>miute by minute they live:
>the stone's in the midst of it all.
>
>too long a sacrifice
>can make a stone of the heart.
>o when may it suffice?
>that is heaven's part, our part
>to murmur name upon name,
>as a mother names her child
>when sleep at last has come
>on limbs that had run wild.
>what is it but nightffall?
>no, no, not night but death;
>was it needless death after all?
>
>for england may keep faith
>for all that is done and said.
>we know their dream; enough
>to know they dream and are dead:
>and what if excess of love
>bewildered them till they died?
>i write it out in a verse-
>MacDonagh and MacBride
>and Connolly and Pearse
>now and in time to be
>wherever green is worn,
>all changed, changed utterly:
>a terrible beauty is born.
>
>an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at =
least
>here, in beat-l
>have a great day all
>mc
>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>utterly =
beautiful marie. =20
thanks for posting this. i vote yes as well. this is a time =
of year=20
when all should be gentle and easy and enjoy. i believe the center =
will=20
hold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =
size=3D5></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>Happy =
Thanksgiving to all of=20
you!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =
size=3D5></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>ciao, =20
sherri</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =
Marie=20
Countryman <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:country@SOVER.NET">country@SOVER.NET</A>><BR>To: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A> <<A =
href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A>><BR>=
Date:=20
Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM<BR>Subject: a terrible beatuty is =
born(was=20
estate shit)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>>Timothy K. Gallaher=20
wrote:<BR>><BR>>> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you =
wrote:<BR>>>=20
>> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow =
not=20
to<BR>>> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war =
regarding=20
the controversial<BR>>> >> issues we've all suffered through =
on this=20
newsgroup for the last year until<BR>>> >> AFTER the=20
holidays.<BR>>> ><BR>>> >I vote yes on this =
proposal! =20
But "can the center hold"?<BR>>><BR>>> I vote=20
yes!!!!!!!!!!<BR>>> _________<BR>><BR>>easter 1916i have met =
them at=20
close of day<BR>>coming with vivid faces<BR>>from counter or desk =
among=20
grey<BR>>eighteenth-century houses.<BR>>i have passed with a nod =
of the=20
head<BR>>or polite meaningless words,<BR>>or have lingered a while =
and=20
said<BR>>polite meaningless words,<BR>>and thought before i had=20
done<BR>>of a mocking tale or a gibe<BR>>to please a=20
companion<BR>>around the fire at the club,<BR>>being certain that =
they and=20
i<BR>>but lived where motley is worn:<BR>>all changed, changed=20
utterly:<BR>>a terrible beauty is born.<BR>><BR>>that woman's =
days were=20
spent<BR>>in ignorant good-will,<BR>>her nights in =
argument<BR>>until=20
her voice grew shrill.<BR>>what voice more sweet than =
hers<BR>>when, young=20
and beautiful,<BR>>she rode to harriers?<BR>>this man had kept a=20
school<BR>>and rode our winged horse;<BR>>this other his helper =
and=20
friend<BR>>was coming into his force;<BR>>he might have won fame =
in the=20
end,<BR>>so sensitive his nature seemed,<BR>>so daring and sweet =
his=20
thought.<BR>><BR>>this other man i had dreamed<BR>>a drunken,=20
vainglorious lout.<BR>>he had done most bitter wrong<BR>>to =
someone near=20
my heart,'<BR>>yet i number him in the song;<BR>>he , too, has =
resigned=20
his part<BR>>in the casual comedy;<BR>>he, too, has been changed =
in his=20
turn,<BR>>transformed utterly:<BR>>a terrible beauty is=20
born.<BR>><BR>>hearts with one purpose alone<BR>>through summer =
and=20
winter seem<BR>>enchanted to a stone<BR>>to trouble the living=20
stream.<BR>>the horse that comes from the road,<BR>>the rider, the =
birds=20
that range<BR>>from cloud to tumbling cloud,<BR>>minute by minute =
they=20
change;<BR>>a shadow of cloud on the stream<BR>>changes minute by=20
minute;<BR>>a horse-hoof slides on the brim,<BR>>and a horse =
plashes=20
within it;<BR>>the long-legged moor-hens dive,<BR>>the long-legged =
moor-cocks call;<BR>>miute by minute they live:<BR>>the stone's in =
the=20
midst of it all.<BR>><BR>>too long a sacrifice<BR>>can make a =
stone of=20
the heart.<BR>>o when may it suffice?<BR>>that is heaven's part, =
our=20
part<BR>>to murmur name upon name,<BR>>as a mother names her=20
child<BR>>when sleep at last has come<BR>>on limbs that had run=20
wild.<BR>>what is it but nightffall?<BR>>no, no, not night but=20
death;<BR>>was it needless death after all?<BR>><BR>>for =
england may=20
keep faith<BR>>for all that is done and said.<BR>>we know their =
dream;=20
enough<BR>>to know they dream and are dead:<BR>>and what if excess =
of=20
love<BR>>bewildered them till they died?<BR>>i write it out in a=20
verse-<BR>>MacDonagh and MacBride<BR>>and Connolly and =
Pearse<BR>>now=20
and in time to be<BR>>wherever green is worn,<BR>>all changed, =
changed=20
utterly:<BR>>a terrible beauty is born.<BR>><BR>>an easter poem =
for=20
thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold, at least<BR>>here, =
in=20
beat-l<BR>>have a great day all<BR>>mc<BR>></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BCFA7A.965C0B60--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:03:32 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac Gap Ad
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 97-11-26 14:19:04 EST, you write:
>
><<
> i then walked in to the store as i removed my wallet and removed all my
> credit cards from the wallet and held them in the palm of my mind with my
> arm oustretch palm up and approached the worker there.
>
> Khakis i said
>
> khakis
>
> use my credit cards i have thousands dollar limit please use all
>
> khakis
>
> >>
>absolutely fucken hilarious, tim! do you take mastercard?
you got it !!1
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:48:40 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: montgomery, john
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
William Lawlor wrote:
> Ah, friends, is it true that John Montgomery died in 1993?
Yes, sad but true. But of course his writing and books shine on...
Jym
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:53:40 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <UPMAIL14.199711260357070867@classic.msn.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there Sherri, on 26-Nov-97 you wrote...
>welcome John. how bout telling us about thos articles you have? ciao,
ahh, i will i will.
in the meantime, i suspect there isn't a suffocating rigidity in here, but
can i ask about certain protocols that people or the listmangagers may have
devised to allow some semblance of courtesy and consideration to masquerade
benignly as spontaneous bop prosody and freewheeeling chaos
do people get annoyed if the posting you're replying to is quoted entirely,
with a "Yeah! me too" appended to the end - other lists i am on train you
out of it pretty quickly and gently. ( Sherri, /you/ did this, but if you
think this is directed at you, you're a bad bad woman :-) )
what about replying to the list when it may have been smarter to reply
direct to sender
and what about not changing the subject title to reflect that youre not
really replying but starting a new thread, but lazily 'borrowed' the
address?
im not a fascist, just trying to get along heeheeheee ! finding this list,
i feel like a desert hyena who's tumbled into an oasis, and i want to swim
here along time - i've read so much here already that's brought back that
heady feeling i used to have as i read the beat writings- god it is so
tempting to contact some old friends and remind them of their putdowns (not
to mention Time mag, who relentlessy wrote off or patronised each novel
that got published.
ps thanks to those who sent a welcome
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:05:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John Pullicino wrote:
>
> Hi there Sherri, on 26-Nov-97 you wrote...
>
> >welcome John. how bout telling us about thos articles you have? ciao,
> ahh, i will i will.
> in the meantime, i suspect there isn't a suffocating rigidity in here, but
> can i ask about certain protocols that people or the listmangagers may have
> devised to allow some semblance of courtesy and consideration to masquerade
> benignly as spontaneous bop prosody and freewheeeling chaos
>
hey man, free wheeling chaos man, like it. cool, dig it, me too. I got
a back channel once that told me to be more careful of my spelling. I
dug it man. now the only thing i would like to add is i think everyone
should only post interesting things, nothing boring.
P
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:03:29 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE:INSTALLMENT #1
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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There was a strict trappist monastrry. The monks would take turns
saying only one thing at beakfast once a year. It was something like
the ideal Beat-L would be.
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:12:43 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE: INSTALLMENT #2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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When it comes time for one of the monks to take a turn saying something,
he says: "The rolls are nice and fresh this morning."
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:49:08 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: more yeats (and yeah, i know it's off topic
MIME-Version: 1.0
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the second coming
turning and turning in the widening gyre
the falcon cannot hear the falconer:
things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
the ceremony of innocence is drowned;
the best lack all conviction, while the worst
are full of passionate intensity.
surely some revelation is at hand;
surely the second coming is at hand;
the second coming! hardly are those words out
when a vast image out of spiritus mundi
troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
a shape with lion body and the head of a man
a gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
reel the shadows of the indignant desert birds
the darkness drops again; but now i know
the twenty centuries of stonly sleep
were vest to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
and what rough beast its hour com round at last,
slouches toward bethlehem to be born? 1921
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:58:08 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
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thanks sherri. i think we all need a little dip into yeats to keep us
honest. i just posted the widening gyre poem as well.
and it's two weeks until i get on that train!!! yahoooo!!!!!!!!!
i'm already packing !
marie
sherri wrote:
> utterly beautiful marie. thanks for posting this. i vote yes as
> well. this is a time of year when all should be gentle and easy and
> enjoy. i believe the center will hold. Happy Thanksgiving to all of
> you!! ciao, sherri-----Original Message-----
> From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 12:49 PM
> Subject: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)>Timothy K.
> Gallaher wrote:
> >
> >> At 07:43 AM 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >> >> I'll make a holiday pact here with you and everyone else: I vow
> not to
> >> >> participate in anything resembling a flame war regarding the
> controversial
> >> >> issues we've all suffered through on this newsgroup for the last
> year until
> >> >> AFTER the holidays.
> >> >
> >> >I vote yes on this proposal! But "can the center hold"?
> >>
> >> I vote yes!!!!!!!!!!
> >> _________
> >
> >easter 1916i have met them at close of day
> >coming with vivid faces
> >from counter or desk among grey
> >eighteenth-century houses.
> >i have passed with a nod of the head
> >or polite meaningless words,
> >or have lingered a while and said
> >polite meaningless words,
> >and thought before i had done
> >of a mocking tale or a gibe
> >to please a companion
> >around the fire at the club,
> >being certain that they and i
> >but lived where motley is worn:
> >all changed, changed utterly:
> >a terrible beauty is born.
> >
> >that woman's days were spent
> >in ignorant good-will,
> >her nights in argument
> >until her voice grew shrill.
> >what voice more sweet than hers
> >when, young and beautiful,
> >she rode to harriers?
> >this man had kept a school
> >and rode our winged horse;
> >this other his helper and friend
> >was coming into his force;
> >he might have won fame in the end,
> >so sensitive his nature seemed,
> >so daring and sweet his thought.
> >
> >this other man i had dreamed
> >a drunken, vainglorious lout.
> >he had done most bitter wrong
> >to someone near my heart,'
> >yet i number him in the song;
> >he , too, has resigned his part
> >in the casual comedy;
> >he, too, has been changed in his turn,
> >transformed utterly:
> >a terrible beauty is born.
> >
> >hearts with one purpose alone
> >through summer and winter seem
> >enchanted to a stone
> >to trouble the living stream.
> >the horse that comes from the road,
> >the rider, the birds that range
> >from cloud to tumbling cloud,
> >minute by minute they change;
> >a shadow of cloud on the stream
> >changes minute by minute;
> >a horse-hoof slides on the brim,
> >and a horse plashes within it;
> >the long-legged moor-hens dive,
> >the long-legged moor-cocks call;
> >miute by minute they live:
> >the stone's in the midst of it all.
> >
> >too long a sacrifice
> >can make a stone of the heart.
> >o when may it suffice?
> >that is heaven's part, our part
> >to murmur name upon name,
> >as a mother names her child
> >when sleep at last has come
> >on limbs that had run wild.
> >what is it but nightffall?
> >no, no, not night but death;
> >was it needless death after all?
> >
> >for england may keep faith
> >for all that is done and said.
> >we know their dream; enough
> >to know they dream and are dead:
> >and what if excess of love
> >bewildered them till they died?
> >i write it out in a verse-
> >MacDonagh and MacBride
> >and Connolly and Pearse
> >now and in time to be
> >wherever green is worn,
> >all changed, changed utterly:
> >a terrible beauty is born.
> >
> >an easter poem for thanksgiving, and a belief the center will hold,
> at least
> >here, in beat-l
> >have a great day all
> >mc
> >
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:30:04 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE: INSTALLNEBT #3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The next year it was the second monk's turn to speak. He said, "Pass
the butter, please."
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:13:26 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: L'angelo caduto.
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
carissimi,
the book "Angelheaded Hipster. A Life of Jack Kerouac"
by Steve Turner, in italian it's called
"Jack Kerouac. L'angelo caduto" translated by Alessandra Osti.
I think it's a worth purcase.
strangely (?) in the Feltrinelli's bookstore chain both J. Kerouac and
W. S. Burroughs are arranged in the italian literature shelf.
A. Ginsberg's books on the contrary are arranged precisely.
saluti,
Rinaldo.
* Tristessa, maybe Keroauc's sly homage to Bonjour Tristesse
(which had made Francoise Sagan a star overnight in 1955)
--Aram Saroyan, foreword to Big Sur
*
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:56:53 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
Marie- that was a so beautiful poem- especially hit me after read Michael
Collins book no too long ago and then saw movie. great work! GT
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:47:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: L'angelo caduto.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971127191326.006884f8@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
AngelHeaded Hipser has the best pictures. Its a costly purchase but well
worth it.
~Nancy
On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> carissimi,
>
> the book "Angelheaded Hipster. A Life of Jack Kerouac"
> by Steve Turner, in italian it's called
> "Jack Kerouac. L'angelo caduto" translated by Alessandra Osti.
> I think it's a worth purcase.
>
> strangely (?) in the Feltrinelli's bookstore chain both J. Kerouac and
> W. S. Burroughs are arranged in the italian literature shelf.
>
> A. Ginsberg's books on the contrary are arranged precisely.
>
> saluti,
> Rinaldo.
> * Tristessa, maybe Keroauc's sly homage to Bonjour Tristesse
> (which had made Francoise Sagan a star overnight in 1955)
> --Aram Saroyan, foreword to Big Sur
> *
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:58:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly page updated!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Happy Thanksgiving all! We have updated the page with more news. Bob Kealing
of Orlando, Florida writes us about his happening atJack and Memere's
cottage of 1957-8.
Go to
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks! Paul....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:15:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:53:40 +1000 from
<jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Yes, to all points. Whenever possible it's better to summarize rather
than repeat the text you're replying to. And please, whenever the post
isn't meant for everyone on the list, reply to the individual rather
than the list. This is a very active list and most of us want to make
the best use of of time when reading our mail. Having said all this, I
must admit that listmembers sometimes fail to observe this netiquette.
Although there are complaints from time to time, people on the list are
generally pretty "laid back" and will often let these matters go. I
suppose it's my fault, as listowner, because I don't always remind
people enough of these things. Your note gave me the opportunity to do
so once again.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:43:54 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
In-Reply-To: <347BB028.78F@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there Patricia, on 26-Nov-97 you wrote...
(at least i think it was you, if not apologies)
asking to know what i had collected about beat writers.
Here is what i found in my files on Kerouac, i'll do the others (Burroughs
Ginsberg Corso etc later, unless someone objects - i can always send
privately)
His Death -
Melbourne newspapers
Newsday oct 23 1969 "First Hippie dies alone"
Herald oct 23 1969 "No limelight at his death"
Playboy feb 73 - "Gone in October" John Clellon Holmes
Book Reiews -
Dr Sax Time May 18 1959
Maggie Cassidy Time July 20 1959
Big Sur Time Sept 14 1962
Pic Rolling Stone May 9 1972
Other -
"Belief and Techniques for Modern Prose" Jack Kerouac (Evergreen Review?)
Letter on K's "The Essentials of Spontaneous Prose" by Leroi Jones (ER)
"Conclusion of the Railroad Earth" JK (ER vol4 no11)
"Kerouac's Sound" Warren Tallman (ER vol4 no11)
"Jack Kerouac and Neal Cassady - first night of the tapes" (Transatlantic
Review)
"The Art of Fiction - XLI jack Kerouac" (Paris Review)
sorry about where dates are missing - these files have been on the road
too!
3 questions -
has anyone seen the movies "Pull my daisy" and "Chappaqua" ?
is it true that there is a street in SanFran now named after him ?
does anyone know the names of the cemetaries where Ginsberg, Burroughs and
Cassady are buried?
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:46:40 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
In a message dated 97-11-27 23:42:07 EST, John Pullicini wrote (from way Down
Under, I think, where it's a day or so later or earlier than here):
<< Newsday oct 23 1969 "First Hippie dies alone"
Herald oct 23 1969 "No limelight at his death"
>>
John, if these are strictly Australian accounts, not syndicated by some
worldwide news bureau and not seen in the U.S., I'd love to read them. Can
you transcribe and post them to the list?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 22:41:08 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: alan granville
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Does anyone on beat-l know anything about the New York poet Alan
Granville?
I hear he has a similar reputation as Buk did.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:24:24 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: who is Rollo Whitehead?
Comments: To: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca>
In-Reply-To: <347E6784.4615@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have run across a couple references to this guy and was wondering if
anyone knew anything about him...
Don Lee
The Angel departs and where there was no fire no smoke, there is
really a little too much gravity for your species optimum performance.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 02:26:43 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
John Pullicino asked a few Q's. Here's the answer to some of them:
Regarding Kerouac Street in SF. Yes, there is a Kerouac Alley in SF, right
next to City Lights Bookstore. SF has quite a few streets named for writers
and I seem to recall Ferlinghetti was instrumental in getting the city
fathers & mothers to change the name of the Alley outside of City Lights from
whatever it was called (Aborn or something) to Kerouac. If you sit outside
of City Lights any Saturday for more than 20 minutes you're sure to see at
least a few tourists snap their photo's of each other standing under the
sign. In fact, this area is such a mecca for the faithful it is often the
specific reason people come to SF.
Regarding Pull My Daisy, it is a great film. I remember first seeing it at a
showing in a college dorm in 1973 about a year or two before I ever heard of
the Beats. I thought it was pretty artsy at the time, but didn't undertand
the mesage or know who any of the players were. It was just released on
video about a year ago - we sell it thru our web page kerouac.com or call
1-800-KER-OUAC. The thing I like about Pull My Daisy is Jack's narative. If
you didn't know he was doing a spontaneous scat upon his first viewing (some
say second viewing or two takes, but so what) you might think it disjointed
what with the "hews & haws" and interruptions and change of thought, but when
knowing the story behind the story it's a wonderment to behold. A few months
ago after having viewed it with my wife and some old friends we clicked the
VCR off and the TV was still on tuned to some unknown channel with the sound
off and we saw the images of a Hulk Hoganish wrestling match going on and
started to do a spontaneous scat of what was going on with the pictures...
the guys wrestling and the referee and the managers and the girls all decked
out and our goofing with their thoughts and voices was the funniet thing we'd
done in years...we couldn't stop laughing... course we had been sharing a
variety of uninhibitors all evening...
Regarding burials I was under the impression Cassady had been cremated and
his ashes remain with the family. Don't know about Ginsy or Bill, but I'm
sure someone can tell us something.
Speaking of Ginsy and Bill, there's something I've been meaning to tell
everyone for months but never got to it. A couple of days after Allen died
my wife and I were organizing around the house and we're putting things here
and putting things there, re-arranging & stuff and there is this one area in
our house that is at the top of some starirs, kind of a mantle between floors
and we're always putting stuff there but there is no real name for a place
like this. And as we were griping with each other saying, "Where did you say
you put it?" "You know, that place by the stairs" I finally got fed up and
said "Why don't we start calling this thing something?" "What do you mean?
Like what, the 'mantle' or something?" "No, that's no good..." and as Allen
had just died and newspaper clippings were strewn about and we were listening
to Holy Soul Jelly Roll I said, "Why don't we call it the Allen?" And my
wife was flabbergasted..."The Allen?" she asked, looking at me like I had two
heads..."Why not, at least we'll both know what we're talking about". So,
anyway, it didn't take right away, but after a while of goofing with it...
"Hey, darlin', if you're making coffee, will you make me a cup?" "Where's
your mug?" "It's on the Allen"... and after awhle we started to get used to
it and now it we don't even hardly laugh when we say it anymore... And now
we're looking around for something to call "Bill"...
Jerry Cimino
Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:16:35 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac- reports of death
In-Reply-To: <971127234640_30960863@mrin43.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
G'day You_Be_Fine, on 28-Nov-97 you wrote...
(by the way its 7:36pm friday here as i write and 2:36am friday us central)
>John, if these are strictly Australian accounts, not syndicated by some
>worldwide news bureau and not seen in the U.S., I'd love to read them. Can
>you transcribe and post them to the list?
here you go - i suspect you wont find much new in them though.
=================================================
FIRST HIPPIE DIES ALONE (Newsday oct23 1969)
byline- Newsday Reporter
New York Tuesday. Jack Kerouac, the high priest of the Beat Generation,
died
at St Petersburgh Florida today, a victim of his own philosophy.
The 47 year old writer and poet died in hospital from a massive gastric
haemorrhage after a savage drinking bout lasting several days.
Kerouac, whose 'drop-out' philosophy called for 'a frank enjoyment of the
pleasures of life' was a heavy drinker and marijuana smoker.
"I smoked more grass than anyone you ever knew in your life" he said in a
recent interview.
All his life, Kerouac rejected the materialism of the U.S. His novels were
freewheeling accounts of wandering, hard drinking and pot smoking.
He described his ideal life as 'beatific', and the word was shortened to
'beat' and [..some five words have faded here..] became 'beatnik culture'
of the late 1960's.
Kerouac, who was born in Lowell Massachusetts, was almost constantly in the
limelight during the lte 1950's during the publication of his largely
autobiographical books.
his first book, The Town and the City, was not successful, but his second,
On the Road, transformed kerouac and the beat philosophy into household
names virtually overnight.
None of his later books hit the same peak of success, although The Dharma
Bums and The Subterraneans made the bestseller lists.
But Kerouac, described as the bridge between the lost generation and
Hippiedom was rejected by the hippies, who found the beat philosophy too
aggressive.
Kerouac's second wife, Stella, said the writer had died a lonely man.
"Nobody came to see him when he was alive. Why would you come now when he
can't talk to you?"
==================================================
NO LIMELIGHT AT HIS DEATH
byline- Australian Associated Press
New York Tuesday. Jack Kerouac, 47, the novelist of the Beat Generation,
was a lonely man before his death today in St Petersburgh Florida, his
wife, Stella, said.
She told a reporter: "He had been drinking heavily for the past few days.
He was a very lonely man.
"Nobody came to see him when he was alive. Why would you come now when he
can't talk to you?"
but Kerouac was in the limelight during the late 1950s and early 1960s,
when he published his largely autobiographical accounts of his wanderings
across the country during the early 1950s. His novels included 'On the
Road' 'The Dharma Bums' and 'The Subterraneans'.
His books rejected what he considered the materialism of America, and
advocated a freewheeling style of life that included hard drinking and
marijuana.
Kerouac was often called 'the father of the beat generation' who bridged
the gulf between the 'lost generation' and the 'beats'.
==============================================
mmmm - all that typing brought back the afternoon on which i first read the
clippings, which went straight into my wallet, where they remained during
most of the ensuing 28 years - hence the missing words - the rest of the
afternoon i spent in jimmy watson's winebar crossing the same bridge from
lost to beatific..........
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:29:28 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: a terrible beatuty is born(was estate shit)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
yeats has always been a great fave poet of mine, esp. when he moved from
lyric poetry to address the uprising ..
mc
Gene Lee wrote:
> Marie- that was a so beautiful poem- especially hit me after read Michael
> Collins book no too long ago and then saw movie. great work! GT
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 07:22:27 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE: INSTALLMENT #4
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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The next year, it was another monk's turn to speak. He said, "Nice day,
isn't it?"
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 07:56:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
In a message dated 97-11-27 23:42:07 EST, you write:
<< 3 questions -
has anyone seen the movies "Pull my daisy" and "Chappaqua" ?
is it true that there is a street in SanFran now named after him ?
does anyone know the names of the cemetaries where Ginsberg, Burroughs and
Cassady are buried?
>>
Pull My Daisy plays colleges and art houses infrequently, but I have seen it.
I have an old copy of the screenplay published by Grove Press, but now out
of print, I think. The film is interesting...but perhaps only as a memento
of the times and the characters involved in the project. Kerouac Alley is a
recently re-named, one block long alley full of dumpsters. It connects to
Columbus Ave. in North Beach and runs between City Lights Books and Vesuvio,
one of the best bars on this particular planet. The street sign for Kerouac
Alley is usually missing due to theft although a tourist shop at Pier 39 near
Fisherman's Wharf sells knockoffs.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:37:25 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac- reports of death
In a message dated 97-11-28 04:32:52 EST, John PullicinO, not PullicinI
wrote:
<< all that typing brought back the afternoon on which i first read the
clippings, which went straight into my wallet, where they remained during
most of the ensuing 28 years - hence the missing words - the rest of the
afternoon i spent in jimmy watson's winebar crossing the same bridge from
lost to beatific........ >>
Thank you so much for sharing these. They really took me back, too. Imagining
these clips living in your wallet, kept close by for 28 years as some kind of
sweet sentimental enshrinement, was also a tender statement of the loss of
jack. Very nice.
And it's good to know that the bridge from beatific to lost also goes the
other way, back to beatific, and that you were able to find your way there.
I hope you'll be encouraged to share more of your points of view from the
other side of the world.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:58:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
In a message dated 97-11-28 02:27:08 EST, Jerry Cimino wrote:
<< "Hey, darlin', if you're making coffee, will you make me a cup?" "Where's
your mug?" "It's on the Allen"... and after awhle we started to get used to
it and now it we don't even hardly laugh when we say it anymore... And now
we're looking around for something to call "Bill"...
Jerry Cimino
Fog City
>>
I thoroughly loved this story, and your creative naming of unknown
architectural details. What a great idea, and of course, completely goofy, as
well.
In fact, I enjoyed your whole letter, including the images of you all trying
to scat to a wrestling match! I would give a week's pay to see that.
Good to hear from you, telling personal tales, and making me thankful in the
afterglow of Thanksgiving. Keep up the good work!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:07:25 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: WHERE IS UBFINE?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Been trying to carry on a conversation with UBFine, who lists himself as
AngelMindz@AOL.COM but suddenly my posts to him are being returned as
UNKNOWN.
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:49:11 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: UBFINE
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AngelMindz (aka You_Be Fine---but why is he hiding his real name and
dodging any kind of discussion?) is refusing to accept my Email. First
he wrote: "This suit [Nicosia's] sounds frivolous to me." Then I wrote
him: "UBFINE: Are you the misguided individual who accused Gerry
Nicosia, one of our greatest Kerouac Scholars, of launching a
"frivolous" lawsuit against UMass at Lowell?" He answered: "No, I am
not. That is not what I said, and I didn't make any accu/sations
against anyone, I suggest that YOU read my letter more carefully
before labeling me "misguided."
"I have already been to your website, many times, and have read
and printed much information from there for my reading enjoyment. That
does not, however, mean that I agree with your opinions or believe that
what you are saying is accurate.
Thanks for caring."
To which I replied: "ANGEL: A million pardons, but you will note I
didn't "accuse" you of anything, but merely asked if you were the one.
The BEAT-L posts come in a million a minute and I didn't remember who it
was but whoever it was he was definitely misguided. Otherwise I thank
you for visiting my website but as for your differing in opinion,
everyone is entitled to think or believe what he wants, but I am
comforted by the knowledge that I was there, an eyewitness, and you
weren't. It's my duty as a journalist to inform the world with truth,
not bullshit." To which Angel/UBFine responded: "Good example of why I
read your stuff (and everyone's) with a grain of salt. The use of the
verb "accuse" came only from you. I did not use the word. Only
you did. You asked me if I "accused Nicosia, etc.
"Now you quote it back to me, as if I'd said it, and with heavy
sarcasm to boot.
I haven't done anything except express my opinion fairly and
calmly. Yet from you and from Jo Grant I get attitude.
Well you know what? Fuck you both."
So I wrote back under the subject heading, DON'T GET ME WRONG: "UB: I'm
not looking for a fight. I just think it's wrong to
pour shit on one of our greatest Kerouac scholars. I really appreciate
the comparatively few readers who visit my website. I do not spend
much time or money (of which I have none) to promote my website.
Only recently has Yahoo started listing me. But if you take
exception to some of what I have written I wouldn't mind an open
discussion about your exceptions on the BEAT-L list. And I think anyone
who attacks Gerry Nicosia as frivolous is definitely misguided, just as
those who are trying to persecute him for his defense of Jan Kerouac are
definitely misguided. Jan Kerouac's only dream was to vindicate
herself as a writer, however inferior to her father. I believe she has
so vindicated herself. --Al" Then I got Angel/UB's "fuck you" note and
I wrote back: "UB: Is that swhat you call expressing yourself fairly and
calmly and without attitude? I respect Jo Grant and Gerry Nicosia as
accomplished writers and I believe my respect for them reflects their
respect for me. I merely asked you if your were the one who "accused"
Gerry of being frivolous. If you say you weren't, that's good enough
for me. When you say you disagree with what I have written, I naturally
would like to know more specifics. What are you getting so angry
about? --Al"
And my last two messages to him were returned to me as undeliverable
because he embargoed any messages from me.
Now I'm prompted to ask: If the BEAT-L list has that kind of closed
minds subscribing to it, what good is the BEAT-L list? How can it have
any credibility?
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:51:29 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac- reports of death
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At 09:37 AM 11/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-28 04:32:52 EST, John PullicinO, not PullicinI
>wrote:
>
><< all that typing brought back the afternoon on which i first read the
> clippings, which went straight into my wallet, where they remained during
> most of the ensuing 28 years - hence the missing words - the rest of the
> afternoon i spent in jimmy watson's winebar crossing the same bridge from
> lost to beatific........ >>
>
>Thank you so much for sharing these. They really took me back, too. Imagining
>these clips living in your wallet, kept close by for 28 years as some kind of
>sweet sentimental enshrinement, was also a tender statement of the loss of
>jack. Very nice.
>
>And it's good to know that the bridge from beatific to lost also goes the
>other way, back to beatific, and that you were able to find your way there.
>
>I hope you'll be encouraged to share more of your points of view from the
>other side of the world.
>
>
I was in basic training at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky the day Jack died. I
never read a wire story as good as either of those withered ones in your
wallet. I was just a kid then, and I'm 52 now, where did those 28 years
go, and why don't you empty your wallet more often.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:08:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Pro-Preservation
Comments: cc: Charley Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
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Hey, UB AngelMindz,
I need more information. Particularly about how you define "attitude." You
write:
> I haven't done anything except express my opinion fairly and calmly. Yet from
> you and from Jo Grant I get attitude.
>
> Well you know what? Fuck you both.
Is this in response to my post of a few days ago? A post that contains
nothing derrogatory about you.
You wrote:
>Honestly, I can't see the logic of paying a $20,000 retainer for an item that
>was sold for $7,500 in the first place. I also don't see that the seller has
>a legal leg to stand on, or any chance of "winning" this suit, which sounds
>frivolous to me.
And I responded with:
There are hundreds of taped interviews that will be lost, forever, if
preservation measures are not taken to save the tapes. These are interviews
with people who knew Jack Keroauc intimately, Burroughs was interviewed,
many other writers, Kerouac's wives and lovers, very close women and men
friends. To many people this information is so important that considerable
time and money will be spent insuring that the collection is removed from U
Mass, Lowell to a library that has a presevation lab and preservation
librarians who work hard to preserve collections that have been placed in
their care--entrusted to them.
I don't want to get into a big thing over this, but I feel very strongly
about the conservation and preservation of historic documents--particularly
material that is stored in or on unstable material. The life of magnetic
tape is short. Everyone knows this. We simply cannot allow the information
on those tapes to be lost.
Forget about the tapes in the Memory Babe Archive for a minute.and let me
mention another project so you don't think Memory Babe is the only
information I'm concerned about. Wisconsin has the second largest
population of Hmong in the U.S. These remarkable people arrived here
without any history other than their stories. Their history is passed down
generation to generation verbally--it is not written. Cultural shock is
taking a terrible toll of these people--particularly the seniors. The
seniors carry the history in their minds. Everytime one of them dies they
lose, WE LOSE, Hmong history. Can you imagine not having a history. Not
knowing the what, where, why, when and how of yourself, your parents, your
grandparents? No serious, concentrated effort is being made to record the
history of the Hmong. To most is seems unimportant. It demands an
expenditure of funds states do not feel they can spend. Taxpayers are
reluctant. Not a good situation. What should be done to preserve this
history?
Is it as important as the travels of Lewis and Clark? The Vietnam War. My
Lai. Two New Jersey teen agers commiting suicide to protest a war. Letters
your grandmother wrote. An old diary.
What should be done to preserve the scattered fragments of Bukowski,
Burroughs, Ginsberg, Kerouac, and hundreds of others--some minor, some
major. Little things here and there. A note. A few words. What Ginsberg
said about Nicosia while we were talking one evening. A few words while
autographing his high schol yearbook picture for me. Fragments. Safe.
Preserved.
The work to raise money to save this archive is simply that. To save
information that someone, someday, will use. A small bit of information
that helps form a link to another little piece of information and another
and another and another and we learn.
Just the tid-bits one picks up on this list are sometimes mind-blowing.
Example.
Today I added a picture of Meridel LeSueur to the page that has information
about the last book she wrote at age 93. The Dread Road. The picture was a
quick snapshop Charlie Plymell took of Meridel in an elevator at Westbeth,
an artist commune in NYC over ten years ago. Plymell learned of my interest
in Meridel on this list. Meridel was in NYC for the book publishing
gathering the Feminist Press was having for the anthology of Meridel's work
"RIPENING: The Writings of Meridel LeSueur.... " She invited Plymell to
the gathering. An incredible book.. A picture from Plymell to BookZen to
the World Wide Web. From me to the Minnesota Historical Society, with a
copy going to Special Collection at the University if Iowa. Is this picture
important? Are Plymell's notes on the meeting important? Is the
conversation he and Meridel had that day important? Are Meridel's notes
about the meeting with Plymell important. When compared fifty years from
now what will some researcher discover about these two remarkable
observers. Hundreds of her notebooks are slowly being transcribed.
Important? To some people yes. To students studying the Great Depression
Meridel's notes, fiction, poetry, recorded words are priceless. What did
Meridel pass on to one of her grandchildren who put together the first
Native American radio station on an Indian reservation?
Her notes will tell us...something. But they have to be preserved, cared
for, cherished. Preservation Librarians and others, do that--preserve
information.
Please people, just let this thing happen. Please understand that what this
is about is saving information that, since you are into Beat History,
should be as important to you as it is to the person who gathered the
information, and the people who want to study the information.
Sorry for the length of this post. So scattered. Fragmented. Too tired to
dig in and edit. My much better half, a preservation librarian, would have
said it better while being appalled that it needed saying at all.
***
Seriously UB, nothing was said in this post against you personally. And
nothing has been said against you, or anyone who thinks that saving the
hundreds of tapes recordings that are part of the Memory Babe Archive is
"frivolous," that could be considered a "flame."
On the other hand, your "fuck you both" comment appears to be a serious
attempt to start a firery exchange--flames and more flames.
Well it will not happen with me.
And I hope others who understand how critically important it is to save
these tapes will not get pulled into personal attacks and invectives.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line late today
http://www.bookzen.com
592,901 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-01-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:08:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: UBFINE
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> The center is breaking and thanksgiving is over. I am glad this went
> backchannel originally, and i am also glad that differing oppinions are
> heard. i was alarmed at the idea that one idea couldn't be presented
> unless a dissenting view was also presented. I found ub fine thinking
> fuzzy but that is a left sided argument. One thing that has been
> praying on my mind is I desperately wish we could discuss the need for
> the memory babe material to be adequately preserved (as it is voices
> that i love that will be disolved), without fearing if we say anything
> on the subjuect both side will come out swing or responding with the
> vile tone arguments that have visited here in the past. This is a
> place that should care that preservation and access to these archives be
> achieved. I don't know how, beyond the hard cruel tongue of a lawyer.
> but would love to hear POSITIVE ideas on the subject. I would also
> prefer not to hear negative remarks, except as back channel.. In case
> someone wants to back channel, i am patricia elliott, at
> pelliott@sunflower.com
> hi ho to the beat daddio.
> p
> Al Aronowitz wrote:
> >
> > AngelMindz (aka You_Be Fine---but why is he hiding his real name and
> > dodging any kind of discussion?) is refusing to accept my Email. First
> > he wrote: "This suit [Nicosia's] sounds frivolous to me." Then I wrote
> > him: "UBFINE: Are you the misguided individual who accused Gerry
> > Nicosia, one of our greatest Kerouac Scholars, of launching a
> > "frivolous" lawsuit against UMass at Lowell?" He answered: "No, I am
> > not. That is not what I said, and I didn't make any accu/sations
> > against anyone, I suggest that YOU read my letter more carefully
> > before labeling me "misguided."
> >
> > "I have already been to your website, many times, and have read
> > and printed much information from there for my reading enjoyment. That
> > does not, however, mean that I agree with your opinions or believe that
> > what you are saying is accurate.
> >
> > Thanks for caring."
> >
> > To which I replied: "ANGEL: A million pardons, but you will note I
> > didn't "accuse" you of anything, but merely asked if you were the one.
> > The BEAT-L posts come in a million a minute and I didn't remember who it
> > was but whoever it was he was definitely misguided. Otherwise I thank
> > you for visiting my website but as for your differing in opinion,
> > everyone is entitled to think or believe what he wants, but I am
> > comforted by the knowledge that I was there, an eyewitness, and you
> > weren't. It's my duty as a journalist to inform the world with truth,
> > not bullshit." To which Angel/UBFine responded: "Good example of why I
> > read your stuff (and everyone's) with a grain of salt. The use of the
> > verb "accuse" came only from you. I did not use the word. Only
> > you did. You asked me if I "accused Nicosia, etc.
> >
> > "Now you quote it back to me, as if I'd said it, and with heavy
> > sarcasm to boot.
> >
> > I haven't done anything except express my opinion fairly and
> > calmly. Yet from you and from Jo Grant I get attitude.
> >
> > Well you know what? Fuck you both."
> >
> > So I wrote back under the subject heading, DON'T GET ME WRONG: "UB: I'm
> > not looking for a fight. I just think it's wrong to
> > pour shit on one of our greatest Kerouac scholars. I really appreciate
> > the comparatively few readers who visit my website. I do not spend
> > much time or money (of which I have none) to promote my website.
> > Only recently has Yahoo started listing me. But if you take
> > exception to some of what I have written I wouldn't mind an open
> > discussion about your exceptions on the BEAT-L list. And I think anyone
> > who attacks Gerry Nicosia as frivolous is definitely misguided, just as
> > those who are trying to persecute him for his defense of Jan Kerouac are
> > definitely misguided. Jan Kerouac's only dream was to vindicate
> > herself as a writer, however inferior to her father. I believe she has
> > so vindicated herself. --Al" Then I got Angel/UB's "fuck you" note and
> > I wrote back: "UB: Is that swhat you call expressing yourself fairly and
> > calmly and without attitude? I respect Jo Grant and Gerry Nicosia as
> > accomplished writers and I believe my respect for them reflects their
> > respect for me. I merely asked you if your were the one who "accused"
> > Gerry of being frivolous. If you say you weren't, that's good enough
> > for me. When you say you disagree with what I have written, I naturally
> > would like to know more specifics. What are you getting so angry
> > about? --Al"
> > And my last two messages to him were returned to me as undeliverable
> > because he embargoed any messages from me.
> > Now I'm prompted to ask: If the BEAT-L list has that kind of closed
> > minds subscribing to it, what good is the BEAT-L list? How can it have
> > any credibility?
> > --
> > ***************************************
> > Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
> > http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:16:23 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: UBFINE AGAIN
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
So I just received this post from Angel Minds aka UBFine:
Subject:
no thanks
Date:
Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:54:59 -0500 (EST)
From:
AngelMindz@aol.com
To:
blackj@bigmagic.com
I'm not interested in having a conversation with you. I have
blocked you from
my email.
Take your conspiracy theories and self-pity and cc:s to Jo Grant
and Gerald
Nicosia and leave me and the Beat-L list out of it.
Get it? Get lost.
Sounds like UB is already lost. --Al aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:10:58 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: one more a day Charles Bukowski poem
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
One More Day by Charles Bukowski
the slippery summer sun of my youth is
gone
and the mad girls are in others' hands
as I drive my car to the wash
and watch the boys dry it to a hearty
glisten
I stand there
having learned some tricks
out of minor courage and lucky
durability
I still realize my vast vincibility.
it took time to realize
something quite not
realized.
too much time.
time shot apart: bang.
I walk to my car,
tip the gentleman a dollar,
get in,
the slippery sun of my youth
gone,
I drive off,
turn left,
turn right.
I am going somewhere.
hands on the wheel.
checking the rear view mirror.
I am old game for the oldest
hunter.
I stop at the red light.
it's a fair day among the
living.
the earth has been here for
such a very long
time.
I get the green and go
on.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:55:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
in perhaps an unrelated issue- i remember when Jack died- i was going to
college in gainesville, fl and was coming down from a nite of mushrooms and
red wine- needless to say i was not all together when a friend dropped by
with the day's paper which carried the story- i didnt think i could feel any
lower- until i read the article and everything dropped out of my young life-
i always used to love Oct- you know- cool breezes- football- coeds in tight
sweaters- now it just reminds that a great one passed on- which is ok-
everyone has too- just a lot of light disappeared that Fall.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:50:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Big break down on Big Sur
To the Mad ones:
I have been reading some of the comments regarding Big Sur and wish to
comment on it but must make the following confession first -- I have never
been an alcoholic yet (I may be working on it now as we speak), I have never
OD'ed, nor did I ever suffer a mental collapse (at least not one that has
been recorded by the medical community).
The important thing to remember is that the Big Sur was written after he came
out of that whole process. I saw the book as a kind of validation (maybe even
a celebration) that people can survive times of self doubt (and a whole host
of other crappy emotional situations) and come out of it and have their life
go on. Not that I think that Kerouac thought that life is one big happy smile
party, but I don't think that he thought that life was one big deep cesspool
dump either.
The book starts out by alluding to this immense event (the breakdown) that
will be occurring, listing events that may or may not be a precursor to the
breakdown (or whatever it was). It seemed obvious to others that Jack was
heading down a long a dark road.
When he writes about this afterwards, he had the assistance of hindsight to
gauge what and how he was feeling, though I would like to see his letters
that were written during this time period to better understand his frame of
mind.
But in the end, he ends up devoting very few pages to the actual breakdown
(compared to the length of the book). I think this is important. Don't ask me
why. Sometimes you define the donut by the hole, and you define life's better
moments by its worst moments.
I read this book as a more whimsical (buddhist?) accounting of the event,
and I found a lot of humor and irony in the book. I think that Jack
understood that there was humor in the fact that being at a place of immense
beauty like Big Sur, where he had these expectations of enlightened
introspection, he instead suffered with his closest brush of falling off the
brink into the great void below. This understanding can only come after a
person feels that they are back on terra firma.
So in conclusion, for me the book is not about the breakdown at Big Sur. And
all this discussion about DTs, acid trips, and mental breakdowns is a side
issue that is fun (and important) to talk about --- but the book is more a
look back at what happened afterwards and the sense of relief one gets after
the storm has passed.
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:50:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Name that Quote
I have a button that has a quote attributed to Kerouac but I don't recall
reading it anywhere. Does anybody know? thanks, Attila
The quote is:
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't really matter.
Jack Kerouac
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:50:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Kerouac's books: Truth or Fiction
Can we talk?
I never felt that any of Jack's books are autobiographical in the strictest
sense, cause otherwise he would have called it an autobiography. There is
much evidence that most of his books, while based on many actual events, were
stories written for the enjoyment of writing it, and sharing it with whoever
would read it.
Many of the "facts" have been twisted, deleted, added, enhanced, and
otherwise modified to fit into the story. Yet I think that the purpose was to
better convey the emotions and feelings related to the event. Jack tried not
only to tell you what happened, but also to help you feel the rush that he
felt, or whatever emotion he was feeling at the time. If he was down, he
tried to make you feel down or to understand his down. If he was up, he tried
to bring you along on that trip as well.
I think that Jack's talent is in his story telling, using a voice and words
that was unique to him, one that he wasn't afraid of using.
I think alot of people have the mistaken belief that any Kerouac book can be
taken as gospel as to what happened, why it happened, and how it happened. I
think his books provide an insight to what was happening, but not
neccessarily the truth as to what happened.
For me, Jack has always been a story teller who told stories of his own life
and observations. The reasons why he felt he had to tell them are always open
for discussion. I have my own theories on the Duluoz Legend.
And I think its when you hear Kerouac reading his own work that you really
start to appreciate his story telling ability.
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:24:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Netiquette
I just want to remind everyone, after reading a couple of Al Aronowitz's
posts, that it's generally frowned upon as a breach of netiquette to
post private correspondence to the list without the other
correspondent's permission. Being fairly new to our list, I'm sure that
Al didn't know that we had complaints about such postings in the past.
Welcome to the Beat-l, Al. Glad to have you on board. Look forward to
hearing more about the Ginsberg memorial.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:16:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Pro-Preservation details
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971128015832.006b20a8@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
For anyone interested in the developing suit to recover the Memory Babe
Archive from the University of Massachusetts, Lowell a link to more
information is blinking at http://www.bookzen.com
Also, if anyone has comments they would like to share about the
PRESERVATION OF HISTORIC LITERARY MATERIAL BookZen welcomes comments.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:34:03 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE:ANOTHER INSTALLMENT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The next year, it wa anothe Monk's turn to talk: He said, "Pass the
salt, please."
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 17:45:03 +0100
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From: paul caspers <caspers@WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: tapes
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Hi all,
if anyone has recordings of bukowski, kerouac or wsb, and i he/she wants to
trade tape copies of them for copies of irvine welsh reading 'the acid
house' (180m), please mail me privately. i'm off the list, so don't send it
there.
and, if anyone can take the time and trouble to tell me where exactly the
texts from the wsb cd 'dead city radio' come from (most of my booklet is
missing), i'd appreciate it greatly.
see y'all
paul
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:09:04 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's books: Truth or Fiction
In-Reply-To: <971128185046_78371155@mrin47>
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I always refer to JK's books as autobiographical fiction...with the
emphasis on the autobiographical part.
On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Attila Gyenis wrote:
> Can we talk?
>
> I never felt that any of Jack's books are autobiographical in the strictest
> sense, cause otherwise he would have called it an autobiography. There is
> much evidence that most of his books, while based on many actual events, were
> stories written for the enjoyment of writing it, and sharing it with whoever
> would read it.
>
> Many of the "facts" have been twisted, deleted, added, enhanced, and
> otherwise modified to fit into the story. Yet I think that the purpose was to
> better convey the emotions and feelings related to the event. Jack tried not
> only to tell you what happened, but also to help you feel the rush that he
> felt, or whatever emotion he was feeling at the time. If he was down, he
> tried to make you feel down or to understand his down. If he was up, he tried
> to bring you along on that trip as well.
>
> I think that Jack's talent is in his story telling, using a voice and words
> that was unique to him, one that he wasn't afraid of using.
>
> I think alot of people have the mistaken belief that any Kerouac book can be
> taken as gospel as to what happened, why it happened, and how it happened. I
> think his books provide an insight to what was happening, but not
> neccessarily the truth as to what happened.
>
> For me, Jack has always been a story teller who told stories of his own life
> and observations. The reasons why he felt he had to tell them are always open
> for discussion. I have my own theories on the Duluoz Legend.
>
> And I think its when you hear Kerouac reading his own work that you really
> start to appreciate his story telling ability.
>
> so it goes, Attila
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:34:38 -0800
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From: Ryan White <whitery@UCS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Reading material?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971129130826.13180A-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
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Hi, I'm fairly new to the whole beat thing, even newer to this list. I
stumbled across "On the Road" after reading "Naked Lunch" and Burroughs
Obituary. I found myself perpetually caught up in the whole adventure of
spontaneous cross country travel thing. Anyway, I'm a graduate student in
engineering and all this has been an attempt to broaden my horizons. I'm
more of a numbers guy, but have really enjoyed what I've seen. I'm very
interested in this devotion a number of you have for the "beat
generations" and especially Jack K. My personal favorite is Neal Cassady.
The whole point to this is to ask for a bit of guidance. Where should I
start as far as what to read? I've only read Naked Lunch, On the Road,
and The First Third. Any responses would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
again.
Buh-Bye!
--Ryan
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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:51:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mark Schoeck <Ireneaus13@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Reading material?
just a few ideas...
The Wild Boys-WSB
Desolation Angels- JK
two of my faves.
mark.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:58:06 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: KEROUACZIN@AOL.COM
Subject: Fwd: Search
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: csmythe@sab.org (Chris Smythe)
To: kerouaczin@AOL.COM ('kerouaczin@aol.com')
Date: 97-11-25 18:58:13 EST
I am trying to find a poem by Jack Kerouac. I was watching a documentary on
Kerouac that contained, obviously, several recordings of him reading various
works. There was one particular bit I didn't recognize and have been
subsequently struggling to find. Is there any one I can contact to help me
find the source based on a few key words? Please let me know if you can help
me with my search. I would be most grateful.
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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:16:34 -0500
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From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Reading material?
Hey Mark- I think that the first part of Desolation Angels contains some of
Jk's best writing- hmm- dont know about Wild Boys- but not big on Bourroughs
Lit- cept for Junkie and The Exterminator
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Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:19:42 -0500
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From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Reading material?
If you are interested in Cassady- then read Visions of Cody by JK- also the
Demon Box by Kesey
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:02:24 -0500
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From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's books: Truth or Fiction
In-Reply-To: <971128185046_78371155@mrin47>
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Well, Kerouac himself said "All my books are true, cause I believed in
what I saw." They are autobiographical in a sense in that they're based
on more or less actual events. He took a lot of liscence with them to
make them congruous stories. OTR is _heavily_ edited and cut down and
rearranged. After all, its 7 years worth of travelling and adventures.
However, you take stuff like DB or DA and the people who show up as
characters say they're fairly accurate accounts of what happened. Its the
fact that its a story of events and happenings of Kerouac's life seen from
inside Kerouac's head that make it so amazing. They are autobiographical
in the sense that its what Kerouac remembered living and thinking, but
they're still fiction. They're not autobiographical journalistic accounts
the way Holmes' Go or HST's work is, but they're not as fictional as
Fitzgerald's work either. The fact that his work fuzzed the lines so is
one of the reasons it's so important in the history of literature.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:21:21 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Question
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Jack Kerouac and Thomas Wolfe have been criticized for being story
tellers, or just writing down what happened. It seems to me that there
is a large element of fiction involved, more than most would like to
see, but it all is based on reality.
My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know have
some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine. If
Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling
what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to be able
to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration. I think
it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine. What
do you think?
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 20:40:26 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Ferlinghetti's A Note After Reading The Diaries Of Paul Klee
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A Note After Reading The Diaries Of Paul Klee
Paul Klee (that painter who never could draw very well)
put on the holes in his socks
on those dim mornings when he woke alone
On other days it was it was a different tale
as after that time they made love
in the larch grove
by the Tegernsee
What perfection we reach with love!
he opined
It even knits up socks
and makes me feel I'm God in humankind
(Blow, blow, thou winter wind!
Crumble, ye mountains of the mind!)
----
have a good night you all,
daniel caridade
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:30:17 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Question
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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know have
> some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine. If
> Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling
> what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to be
> able
> to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration. I
> think
> it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine. What
> do you think?
I think it takes a great writer to make the ordinary seem extraordinary
or to see greatness in small things. However, when you are talking about
routines, the nature of Jack's life was such that he didn't get bogged
down by a daily grind of routine. For example, he never let
himself experience what it is like to be burdened by the daily family
routines of having a wife and children to support, having to find time to
write between an 8-12 hour a day job, and spending time with wife and
kids. His lack of family routine, a mortgage, or having to support more
than himself, gave him the freedom to travel as he wanted to and
experience a different kind of lifestyle, and in a way, have more to
write about. But again speaking of writers of great stature, a lot of it
has to do with the mind of the writer. In Ulysses, James Joyce really
only wrote about one day, minute by minute, hour by hour in the lives of
three people, but it ramifications in terms of the psychological and
philosophical realms of what it means to be human were extraordinary.
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:14:28 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Ginsberg interview
Comments: To: Charles and Pam Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>
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I don't recall seeing this posted to the Beat-L before, but I thought
this was a cool discussion of Dylan's impact on Allen by Allen. Notice
that darned ole Charles Plymell was right in the middle of this thing.
I got this off an old post to the Dylan list.
> Q: Can you tell us how you met Bob Dylan and
> what your earliest impressions of him were?
>
> AG: My earliest impressions of Dylan were, uh,
> on returning from India... My earliest
> impressions of Dylan were, on returning from
> India via San Francisco, a young poet, Charlie
> Plimel[?], took me aside at a party in Belinas[?]
> and played me some records from a new young
> singer, folk singer, and it was the "Masters of
> War," I think, and "I'll Stand," uh, "I'll Know
> My Song Well Before I Start Singing," and "I'll
> Stand on the Sea Where All Can Reflect or
> Mountain Where All Can Reflect It." And I was
> really amazed. It seemed to me that the torch
> had been passed, sort of, from, uh, Kerouac or
> from the, uh, beat, uh, genius on to another
> generation completely, who had taken it, uh, and
> he'd taken it and made something completely
> original out of it, and that life was in good
> hands. I remember bursting into tears. Because
> the, uh, proclamation of confidence was so
> certain and, uh, the, uh, humility was apparent,
> and at the same time the confidence in, uh, his
> own voice or his own inspiration, which is, I
> think, some of the secret of genius which is, uh,
> like in Whitman: "I celebrate myself and sing
> myself. What I shall assume, you shall assume."
> That confidence of self-acceptance, or
> self-empowerment, the empowerment. Uh, so I
> heard just that first record, and I was pretty
> amazed by it. Then, uh, cause, you know, we had
> learned from earlier people. I had learned from
> William Carlos Williams and William Burroughs,
> who was much older, and, uh, every generation
> produces its own spontaneous genius, sort of. So
> it seemed to me that somebody had emerged with
> their own, out of cocoon, with their own life,
> with their own scepter, so to speak. Then, uh, I
> got to New York with Peter Orlovsky, and we were
> staying at the, it's, uh, above, upstairs from
> the Eighth Street Bookstore, which was at that
> time a big, interesting, intelligent bookstore, Uh, really
> admirable -for, for, for journalism it was a
> really well-researched and even piece at a time
> when, uh, the notion, the journalistic idea was
> beatniks, it was cockroaches, and, uh, dirty
> houses and uh, some idiot, uh, media idea
> ignoring the literature and ignoring the actual
> brilliance of the people like Kerouac or
> Burroughs or Gary Snyder or others. So in '59,
> Aronowitz had written a very good series. And
> he'd actually gone to the West Coast, interviewed
> Michael McClure, Neal Cassidy, uh, the poet Gary
> Snyder I think, or friends of Snyder, Snyder was
> in Japan. Maybe Philip Whalen he saw and uh,
> McClure turned him on to some grass which
> enriched his account of, uh, serialized account
> of the poets. So Aronowitz I had known for four
> or five years and Aronowitz brought Dylan to a
> welcome party. Peter and I had been around the
> world actually and spent a year and a half in
> India. And I'd spent some time in Japan in a Zen
> setting with Gary Snyder and then come back to a
> big poetry conference in Vancouver and then spent
> time in San Francisco, heard Dylan on the radio,
> on the phonograph and then got to New York, got a
> welcome home party and that was the night that
> Dylan had come from the Emergency Civil Liberties
> Committee banquet and had renounced any role as
> sort of a political prophet for them, and that is
> a left wing, uh, what, folk, uh, fighter for
> causes. I don't think he wanted to be limited to
> that view and that perspective. And so I
> remember coming up the stairs and meeting him and
> I was really interested, because I'd seen, heard
> his language. And he was kind of mysterious, but
> one of the first things he said is he had
> explained, uh, uh, he had not obeyed what their
> idea was and they were shocked and horrified.
> But he felt that he had to make his own statement
> and have his own independence rather than being a
> replica of, uh, folk song hero, conforming to
> their expectations as somebody in, responding to
> every civil liberties case, every case of
> discrimination, every strike, the traditional
> sing outs, folk music, left wing party line. And
> I thought it was pretty smart of him, though, he
> may have not had the skillful means to do it in
> which a way that encouraged them to do what they
> wanted to do
>
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:45:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg interview
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At 06:14 PM 11/29/97 -0500, Bentz wrote:
>I don't recall seeing this posted to the Beat-L before,
>but I thought this was a cool discussion of Dylan's
>impact on Allen by Allen.
Just listening to the Dylan show from 4/05/97 in
Moncton, NB, Canada, and after Dylan played "Desolation
Row" he sez this:
"A friend of mine passed away, I guess, this morning,
that was one of his favorite songs, the poet Allen Ginsberg.
Allen that was for you."
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:49:06 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Driving a cardboard automobile by Lawrence Ferlinghetti.
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
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# 2 by Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Driving a cardboard automobile without a license
at the turn of the century
my father ran into my mother
on a fun-ride at Coney Island
having spied each other eating
in a French boardinghouse nearby
And having decided right there and then
that she was right for him entirely
he followed her into
the playland of that evening
where the headlong meeting
of their ephemeral flesh on wheels
hurtled them forever together
And I now in the back seat
of their eternity
reaching out to embrace them
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:33:21 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JUST FOR THE RECORD
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When I interviewed Kerouacin '59 or '60 (see:
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column22.html )he told me all his
novel were autobiographical and he derided the publishers and lawyers
who make him change the names and fuzzy up anything the suits though
libelous. He liked to stick to the truth and laughed at TOWN AND THE
CITY, in which he gave his family things they didn't hae. I don't
remember his exact words and I aint gonna bother looking it up now but
it's all in the interview. He showed me the nickel pocket notebooks in
which he had written everything down. Each novel was contained in
several nickel notebooks which he kept handy in his back pocket until he
packaged each novel as a collection of nickel notebooks by putting a
rubber band around them. It's all described in
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column22,html . U hope those
bundles of notebooks are still intact and haven't been sold off piece
meal as Gerry Nicosia fears. In his interview, Kerouac mentions that
biographies will be written about him. He made it pretty clear to me
that he wanted his papers kept intact and available for scholars. I
hope that is being done and that Nicosia's fears are incorrect. I just
don't see embargoing any of Nicolsia's materials which he deposited in a
library to make available for scholars. And embargoed for extremely
petty reasons at that. Allen Ginsberg used to complain like mad to me
that Stella wouldn't allow access to Jack's papers for her own very dumb
reasons. In later years, he stopped complaining. --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:41:22 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JUST FOR THE RECORD--CORRECTION
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In my original post, I tried to identify the URL of my Kerouac interview
twice but the second time it came out wrong. The correct URL is
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column22.html .
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:50:32 -0800
Reply-To: balkose@egenet.com.tr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Murat Balkose <balkose@EGENET.COM.TR>
Subject: Jim Morrison
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Hello,
Here are a couple of questions we wonder:
1.) At the end of OTR a man named Sean Monahan appears , is he friend
of Synder poet Lew Welch?
2.) At 1970, Jim Morrison meets beat poet Michael McClure. McClure
tries to persuade Jim to print his poem book -Gods - New Creatures-.Does
any one know more about this story.. Also what is relation between Jim
and the beats..
Yr information will be glad .
Yrs,
Murat.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:40:47 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Ferlinghetti's Making Love In Poetry
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Making Love In Poetry
(After Breton)
In a war where every second counts
Time drops to the ground
like a shadow from a tree
under which we lie
in a wood boat built from it
by an unknown carpenter beyond the sea
upon which peach pits float
fired by a gunner who has run out of ammunition
for a cannon whose muzzle bites heartshaped holes
out of the horizon of our flesh
stunned in the sun and baffled into silence
between the act of sex
and the act of poetry
blissed-out in the darkening air
at the moment of loving and coming
there is no glimpsing of
the misery of the world
Hope you all keep having a nice weekend, everybody...
daniel caridade
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:48:07 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Dove Sta Amore...
In-Reply-To: <yam7269.1953.2825864@pac.com.au>
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COMPOSIZIONE SCRITTA IN QUATTRO PARTI
#1 part
-------
Dove Sta Amore... by Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Dove sta amore
Where lies love
Dove sta amore
Here lies love
The ring dove love
In lyrical delight
Hear love's hillsong
Love's true willsong
Love's low plainsong
Too sweet painsong
In passages of night
Dove sta amore
Here lies love
The ring dove love
Dove sta amore
Here lies love
---
#2 part
-------
year 1997, a kid:
"I'm disgusted by the life styles
of the baby boomers. They have
sparked a new era of social values
that have changed the world
in which I live,
creating a mass of problems
whose ramifications
they will not live to endure.
Their sexual revolution has resulted
in a society rife with sexually
transmitted diseases;
the institution of the family
has deteriorated to the point
of disfunctionality.
The baby boomers' use of narcotics
has destroyed many of my peers
in a circle of unbridled drug use and addiction."
---
#3 part
-------
year 1959, Jack Kerouac:
"...because the only people for me are the mad ones, the ones
who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of
everything, but burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman
candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the
middle you see the blue centrelight pop and everybody goes
'Awww!'..."
---
#4 part
-------
year 1920, Edna St. Vincent Millay:
"My candle burns at both ends;
it will not last the night;
but ah, my foes, and oh, my friends-
it gives a lovely light!"
---
un saluto a tutti da
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:09:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Bill Morgan's Walking Tour
For those who still haven't read Bill Morgan's "The Beat Generation in
New York", there's a preview in today's New York Times, City Section, p.
10. A "selective tour" with map is included.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:21:40 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Harry Smith article
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For those of you interested in Harry Smith there is an article in the =
English Folk Roots which I have scanned and posted on =
http://home1.inet.tele.dk/jenskoch/harry1.htm
Jens
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:42:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: George Russell <CodyPomera@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison
Comments: To: balkose@egenet.com.tr
The Lords and the New Creatures was published in 1969, as far as I know. I
don't have a clue as to who published it, he may have done it privately, or
any other printing information. As far as Jim Morrison being influenced by
the Beats, Ray Manzarek said that if On The Road had not been published,
there would have been no Doors.
-George
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:05:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison
so true- and none of that damn fine music- jack spawned a lot of good things-
Bob Dylan for one
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:14:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: NYC Some of the Dharma Reading
If you are are in the area, check it out, Attila
Jack Kerouac's Some of the Dharma
readings & performances by Karen Allen, David Amram, Doug Brinkley, Todd
Colby, Willem Dafoe, Ann Douglas, Maggie Estep, Hitchhiker, Lee Ranaldo, Ed
Sanders, David Stanford, Anne Waldman, & Special Guests
Wednesday December 3rd 8:00PM
$12.00 ($7.00 for members & students)
The Poetry Project St.Mark's Church
131 East 10th St. (at 2nd Ave.) Manhattan
Info: 212/674-0910
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:32:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NYC Some of the Dharma Reading
wow- is all I have to say- o to live in NYC- for things like that- I am
currently reading the Dharma book- fits in nicely with my re-entry into Zen-
Jk was so damn sharp- too sad
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:55:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beat Book Garage Sale - Reader copies
It's time to clear out some room on my shelves again. Within the next week
or so I will be e-mailing a list of Beat related and some non-beat related
books I have for sale. In general these will be relitively inexpensive
"reader" copies, with a handful of "collectable" stuff. If you would like to
receive my list, please send a private e-mail to Hpark4@aol.com NOT to the
listserve -- there is no reason to waste bandwidth to all 200 plus people on
the list for this purpose.
I'll have some some books at affordable prices.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:42:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Beat Book Garage Sale - Reader copies
In-Reply-To: <971130205505_2095637616@mrin43.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Howard,
If there's any Burroughs on your shelves, send along the list.
Thanks,
Neil
Return-Path: <MAILER-DAEMON>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:32:20 -0500
From:
"L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8c)" <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: File: "BEAT-L LOG9712"
To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 05:20:34 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Beat Generation multi-media???
Has anyone purchased any of the Beat CD-ROMs? I really want to get some
feed-back before spending the money. Also, I'm looking for more Kerouac spoken
word! I already own Rhino's JK and Beat Generation compilation. Is there
anything else out there?!
Thank You!!!
Shani
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:41:43 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "THE SNARK IS A BOOJUM...." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
Shani,
I received the Kerouac CD-ROM as a present last Xmas time. I really like it,
there are pages in Jack's journals that you can turn, nice narration from
various fellow Beat authors and other goodies. Well worth the price I'd say.
But not cheap.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:01:24 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: on bentz's question
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> Subject:
> Question
> Date:
> Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:21:21 -0500
> From:
> "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
>
>
> Jack Kerouac and Thomas Wolfe have been criticized for being story
> tellers, or just writing down what happened. It seems to me that there
> is a large element of fiction involved, more than most would like to
> see, but it all is based on reality.
>
> My question is this, my life and the lifes of most people I know have
> some exciting moments, but generally are full of daily routine. If
> Jack's work is mostly autobiographical, that is actually just telling
> what happened, wouldn't that take a writer of greater statute to be able
> to make everyday life so full, so true and such an inspiration. I think
> it would, because he would have to actually see, and not imagine. What
> do you think?
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
Bentz:
maybe it's just that a lot of us don't slow down often enough to enjoy
the beauty that exists in our everday lives--we're so built into
routine, that we don't see sometimes how beautiful that routine is...
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:50:16 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Morgan <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Bill Morgan's Walking Tour
Dear Bill:
Thanks for mentioning the Times article, they did a pretty good job, got most
of the facts straight, etc. I know we've talked about it privately, but
maybe we should open for discussion which building in New York City should
have a "Ginsberg Lived Here" marker. I favor the apartment on E. 2nd St.
where he wrote "Kaddish", his greatest poem. The building where he heard
Blake speak to him is gone. The 2 apartments they all shared near Columbia
are still there, as is the apartment he spent the last 20 years of his life
in.
Maybe you could tell us how to go about getting landmark status, what agency,
etc.? While we're at it, the apartment on W 20th St. where Kerouac wrote "On
the Road" should definitely be acknowledged. Do we dare hope for 2 signs?
Bill Morgan
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:13:33 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Ferlinghetti's The Plough of Time
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The Plough of Time
Night closed my windows and
The sky became a crystal house
The crystal windows glowed
The moon
shown through them
through the whole house of crystal
A single star beamed down
its crystal cable
and drew a plough through the earth
unearthing bodies clasped together
couples embracing
around the earth
They clung together everywhere
emitting small cries
that did not reach the stars
The crystal earth turned
and the bodies with it
The stars remained fixed
each with its crystal cable
beamed to earth
each attached to the immense plow
furrowing our lives
---
well, another day, another week, back to work everyone...
a special salute to Rinaldo (keep those poems coming, my friend)
daniel caridade
caridade@mail.telepac.pt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:26:20 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:20 AM 12/1/97 UT, you wrote:
>Has anyone purchased any of the Beat CD-ROMs? I really want to get some
>feed-back before spending the money. Also, I'm looking for more Kerouac spoken
>word! I already own Rhino's JK and Beat Generation compilation. Is there
>anything else out there?!
>
>Thank You!!!
>Shani
>
There is the great cassette set of Visions of Cody with Graham Parker and
David Amram. There is also one forthcoming featuring Kerouac reading On the
Road (I think)and maybe other selections. Hope this helps! Sincerely, Paul
of TKQ.
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:16:26 -0500
Reply-To: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Neil Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Burroughs archives
In-Reply-To: <009BDDEE.47B74620.1@kenyon.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Firstly, I apologize for the message I mistakenly sent to the list that
should have been sent to Howard only.
On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, THE SNARK IS A BOOJUM.... wrote:
> For those of you who were interested in the Burroughs archives at Ohio State
> University, I may have some information for you soon.James Grauerholz called
me
> up and asked if I wanted to do some photo reasearch for a new biography on
> Burroughs.Of course I said yes, so I hope to begin soon.The book will be pub-
> lished by the Bloomsbury Press, same as did the Kerouac book; ANGLEHEADED
> HIPSTER. As soon as I know more, I will pass it on to everyone.
> Don't forget to read WSB's Thanksgiving Prayer before dinner tomorrow.
What does "photo research" entail? I'd love to find out who the biography
is being written by, and whether or not this will be the "authorized"
biography. Of course, it might be something about the Miles edited "Evil
River: An Autobiography", to be assembled from Burroughs' journal notes in
the 80's.
Thanks for letting us know, and looking forward to hearing more.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:32:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bill Morgan's Walking Tour
In-Reply-To: <971201075016_-657121590@mrin47>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I would go to the Historic Preservation Society or something....
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Bill Morgan wrote:
> Dear Bill:
> Thanks for mentioning the Times article, they did a pretty good job, got most
> of the facts straight, etc. I know we've talked about it privately, but
> maybe we should open for discussion which building in New York City should
> have a "Ginsberg Lived Here" marker. I favor the apartment on E. 2nd St.
> where he wrote "Kaddish", his greatest poem. The building where he heard
> Blake speak to him is gone. The 2 apartments they all shared near Columbia
> are still there, as is the apartment he spent the last 20 years of his life
> in.
> Maybe you could tell us how to go about getting landmark status, what agency,
> etc.? While we're at it, the apartment on W 20th St. where Kerouac wrote "On
> the Road" should definitely be acknowledged. Do we dare hope for 2 signs?
> Bill Morgan
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:33:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Burroughs' letters/routines
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie asked a question a while back about the appearance of routines in
Burroughs' letters. If you want to trace the development of the routine, I
would suggest that in addition to the Harris edited Letters, you grab a
copy of The Yage Letters, Letters to Allen Ginsberg, and Queer.
As far as I know, the first routine Burroughs wrote in that format (with
the exception of the much earlier collaboration with Kells Elvins on
"Roosevelt after Inauguration") appears in the Yage Letters, where he
leaves the letter format to slip into that dry parodic prose detailing his
adventures with the villagers and the medicine men in the jungle towns of
S. America.
In Queer, Lee uses routines to try to impress his intended (whose name I
can't recall right now). I haven't been able to track down a copy of
Letters to Allen Ginsberg, but I imagine there's more goodies in there.
Perhaps John Hasbrouk can enlighten us about this one? (are you still out
there John?)
It's a worthwhile project Marie, and I for one would like to hear your
thoughts whilst in the midst. As far as I'm concerned, it was with the
discovery of the routine that Burroughs became a writer (in his own
formulation, a bull-fighter and not a bull-shitter).
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:25:56 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison
In-Reply-To: <971130160528_-837024753@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>so true- and none of that damn fine music- jack spawned a lot of good things-
>Bob Dylan for one
Bob Dylan spawned by the writings of Jack kerouac? Influenced certainly,
but the pre-teen pictures of Dylan and his guitar with well known blues
musicians indicates he was on his way as a musician before he'd read any
Keroauc.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:40:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
In-Reply-To: <009BE17A.5C0F06A0.11@kenyon.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> But not cheap.
I ordered mine directly from the developer and got it a good 15 or 20
bucks cheaper than Penguin offers it or any retailer would. They have a
much more nifty online tour of the CD than Penguin as well with many
gankable pictures, sounds, and clips.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:30:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: TKQ page updated!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
New page update!
This week, the Some of the Dharma reading will be held at St. Mark's in
New York City....hope to see some of you there. Paul. . .
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:36:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bill Morgan's Walking Tour
BillM.,
I just want to second all the good things said about your walking tour.
Whenever I read a biography or some type of non-fiction, I often wonder if a
particular building is still in existence, etc. It is almost an automatic
response. I was glad to see that during my last trip to NYC, there was a plaque
on the building where Henry Miller was born (East 88th St. and York Ave, or
there abouts). History must be preserved, esp in NYC where everything is torn
down to make Yuppie Towers. Good work!
Dave Breithaupt
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:18:06 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: beat influence
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All this talk about Bob Dylan and Jim Morrison has gotten me
thinking about what other musicians were/are heavily influenced by the
Beats. I see a lot of Beat influence in Patti Smith's work, as well as
Lou Reed's and U2's. Can anyone think of any others? I'll be
interested to hear the replies!
Maggie
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:27:20 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: lawrence ferlinghetti
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
It's great to see so much about Lawrence Ferlinghetti popping up
lately on the List. After my mentor died, i went through several boxes
of his books and was able to find a very old copy of a Coney Island of
the Mind, the fifth printing, published in 1958 by New Directions.
Ferlinghetti is truly one of the last living Beats, not to mention a
wonderful example of American poetry at its best. Does anyone know if
he still does readings and/or lectures? I'd love to get him to come to
my campus.
Here's my favorite by Ferlinghetti:
"11"
The world is a beautiful place
to be born into
if you don't mind happiness
not always being
so very much fun
if you don't mind a touch of hell
now and then
just when everything is fine
because even in heaven
they don't sing all the time
The world is a beautiful place
to be born into
if you don't mind some people dying
all the time
or maybe only starving some of the time
which isn't half so bad
if it isn't you
Oh the world is a beautiful place
to be born into
if you don't much mind
a few dead minds
in the higher places
or a bomb or two
now and then
in your upturned faces
or other such improprieties
as our Name Brand society
is prey to
with its men of distinction
and its men of extinction
and its priests
and other patrolmen
and its various segregations
and congressional investigations
and other constipations
that our fool flesh
is heir to
Yes, the world is the best place of all
for a lot of such things as
making the fun scene
and making the love scene
and making the sad scene
and singing low songs and having inspirations
and walking around
looking at everything
and smelling flowers
and goosing statues
and even thinking
and kissing people and
making babies and wearing pants
and waving hats and
dancing
and going swimming in rivers
on picnics
in the middle of summer
and just generally
'living it up'
Yes
but then right in the middle of it
comes the smiling
mortician
Maggie
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:24:23 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison
In-Reply-To: <971130160528_-837024753@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Murat wrote:
>Hello,
[..]
>At 1970, Jim Morrison meets beat poet Michael McClure. McClure
>tries to persuade Jim to print his poem book -Gods - New Creatures-.Does
>any one know more about this story..
Jim Morrison Interview by Jerry Hopkins - Rolling Stone 26th jul 1969.?
[]yes
[]no
> Also what is relation between Jim
>and the beats..
1967 Summer of Love?
[]yes
[]no
---
saluti a tutti da rinaldo
today it's a foggy, rainy venice, italy.
*Hola estimado amigo daniel! have an happy week.*
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:32:48 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: more Re: lawrence ferlinghetti
In-Reply-To: <19971201182720.17752.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
13.
For years I never thought of death.
Now the breath
of the eternal harlequin
makes me look up
as if a defrocked Someone were there
who might make me into an angel
playing piano on a riverboat.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:38:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Kathy Acker
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I just heard the real sad news that Kathy Acker died.
I don't know much more -- anybody else? This was
unexpected to me as I hadn't even known she was sick.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:41:47 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: AngelMindz <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: beat influence
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Probably the easiest way to begin answering that question about Beat musical
influences is to send you to Levi Asher's legendary website, Literary Kicks.
<A HREF=" http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ ">Literary Kicks</A> or
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
There's a list there, and I seem to remember invitations to people to add to
it. So much has happened in music since I was last there, I'm sure the list
has grown considerably.
Levi's work is always worth reviewing, and this list is the most comprehensive
one I've seen. I think there are one or two list-members who've done some
research on this topic too, though. Can we hear from them?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:04:36 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Matthew Felix <felix@ENGR.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat influence
In-Reply-To: <19971201181806.1683.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
maggie,
i would like to offer adam yauch of the beastie boys as representing many
beat qualities. he is constantly on the road, chasing the snow up in the
mountains all across the country. he has become deeply spiritual and
sometimes lets it come out in his music (the song Namaste for example). he
spearheaded the tibetan freedom concert and milareapa fund. the beastie
boys even mention jack kerouac in one of their songs.
matt
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Maggie Gerrity wrote:
> All this talk about Bob Dylan and Jim Morrison has gotten me
> thinking about what other musicians were/are heavily influenced by the
> Beats. I see a lot of Beat influence in Patti Smith's work, as well as
> Lou Reed's and U2's. Can anyone think of any others? I'll be
> interested to hear the replies!
> Maggie
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:49:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Search
anyone know where jack used these words in a poem? they are not instantly
familiar to me.
if you know, please respond on the list, then everyone will know.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: csmythe@sab.org (Chris Smythe)
To: AngelMindz@aol.com ('AngelMindz@aol.com')
Date: 97-12-01 15:17:46 EST
Hello. For starters, thanks for responding. I have to admit I don't have
much to go on. I only have one complete line. "..in my quilted boyhood
youth.." I apologize for not having more, but in case anyone has come across
anything containing that line, I would grateful to find out what it is. Once
again, thanks.
----------
From: AngelMindz@aol.com[SMTP:AngelMindz@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 1997 4:56 PM
To: csmythe@sab.org
Subject: Re: Search
In a message dated 97-11-29 14:11:51 EST, you write:
<< csmythe@sab.org >>
Chris... what are the key words in the poem you're trying to figure out? List
them, and 200 people on the Beat-L list will probably try (and succeed)
figuring them out.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:26:18 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: lawrence ferlinghetti
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maggie Gerrity wrote:
>
> It's great to see so much about Lawrence Ferlinghetti popping up
> lately on the List.
Indeed, we should hear more about Lawrence in this list, and we are
fortunate enough to have him still fighting life's little battles among
us.
I find it hard to choose a favourite poem, but this is among the ones
that ring the bells of delight..
(also from A Coney Island of the Mind)
14
Don't let that horse
eat that violin
cried Chagall's mother
But he
kept right on
painting
And became famous
And kept on painting
The Horse With Violin In Mouth
And when he finally finished it
he jumped up upon the horse
and rode away
waving the violin
And then with a low bow gave it
to the first naked nude he ran across
And there were no strings
attached
---
daniel caridade
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:28:02 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Burroughs' letters/routines
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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neil, thanks!
i do have the yage letters, and now my resources are complete. i'll probably
have something coherent to begin a thread with some time this month. would
get to it sooner, but travel looms. hey all you west coast beats, i'm heading
yr way by rail to stay with leon and do the sights, meet nice folks, and do a
reading or two. i'll be able to snag my mail through hotmail.com so i'm very
pleased not to have to go offlist for the duration. it's a really pleasing
project for me to get to know burroughs better before pushing on towards the
trilogy. of all the beats, i know the least about the workings of burroughs
writing.
thanks again, neil.
Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
> Marie asked a question a while back about the appearance of routines in
> Burroughs' letters. If you want to trace the development of the routine, I
> would suggest that in addition to the Harris edited Letters, you grab a
> copy of The Yage Letters, Letters to Allen Ginsberg, and Queer.
>
> As far as I know, the first routine Burroughs wrote in that format (with
> the exception of the much earlier collaboration with Kells Elvins on
> "Roosevelt after Inauguration") appears in the Yage Letters, where he
> leaves the letter format to slip into that dry parodic prose detailing his
> adventures with the villagers and the medicine men in the jungle towns of
> S. America.
>
> In Queer, Lee uses routines to try to impress his intended (whose name I
> can't recall right now). I haven't been able to track down a copy of
> Letters to Allen Ginsberg, but I imagine there's more goodies in there.
> Perhaps John Hasbrouk can enlighten us about this one? (are you still out
> there John?)
>
> It's a worthwhile project Marie, and I for one would like to hear your
> thoughts whilst in the midst. As far as I'm concerned, it was with the
> discovery of the routine that Burroughs became a writer (in his own
> formulation, a bull-fighter and not a bull-shitter).
>
> Cheers,
> Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:28:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: beat influence
It is a real pleasure to see some of these supposedly spiritually dead
entertainers doing great things- Such as Adam of the Beastie Boys. At first i
was opposed to Hollywood getting into the Tibetan thing- but hey- no reason
to turn down hi-profile help- i have now come to realize.
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:30:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Patti Smith - peace and noise
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
For those interested:
There is some Ginsberg and Burroughs content on
Patti Smith's new CD _peace and noise_. The song
"Spell" has PS reciting "footnote to howl," and there is
a dedication to WSB on the front cover of the liner
notes: "Memento Mori, William Seward Burroughs,
February 5, 1914 - August 2, 1997."
Sorry if this has been brought to attention already.
Great album!!
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:36:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
Please excuse my ignorence but - who was Kathy Acker? I'm just not familier
with her.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:58:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
In-Reply-To: <199712011838.KAA18627@netcom.netcom.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Who is Kathy Acker?
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Levi Asher wrote:
> I just heard the real sad news that Kathy Acker died.
> I don't know much more -- anybody else? This was
> unexpected to me as I hadn't even known she was sick.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> | Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
> | |
> | Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
> | (the beat literature web site) |
> | |
> | "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
> | (a real book, like on paper) |
> | also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
> | |
> | *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
> | |
> | "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
> | -- Ric Ocasek |
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:00:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat influence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971201125838.8116D-100000@engr.arizona.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Yauch is on the upright, the shit jsut aint funny, got fat bass lines like
russell simmons steals money, got clientel, you know I rock well...
~Beastie Boys/Ill Communications
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Matthew Felix wrote:
> maggie,
>
> i would like to offer adam yauch of the beastie boys as representing many
> beat qualities. he is constantly on the road, chasing the snow up in the
> mountains all across the country. he has become deeply spiritual and
> sometimes lets it come out in his music (the song Namaste for example). he
> spearheaded the tibetan freedom concert and milareapa fund. the beastie
> boys even mention jack kerouac in one of their songs.
>
> matt
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Maggie Gerrity wrote:
>
> > All this talk about Bob Dylan and Jim Morrison has gotten me
> > thinking about what other musicians were/are heavily influenced by the
> > Beats. I see a lot of Beat influence in Patti Smith's work, as well as
> > Lou Reed's and U2's. Can anyone think of any others? I'll be
> > interested to hear the replies!
> > Maggie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________
> > DO YOU YAHOO!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:12:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: Plath and the beats.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
What if Sylvia Plath was part of the Kerouac group of writers? Would
Allen's influence change the way Plath wrote? Maybe Gregory Corso would
be running after her, trying to get a date or even worse. Maybe Cassady's
macho style would have swooned her....
Its a shame she didn't correspond with the Beats. A plath/burroughs
project would have been something to read about...
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:20:02 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone purchased any of the Beat CD-ROMs?=20
I did purchase the Voyager Beat Experience and for me it has been a =
great buy, because it really is multimedia and offers very varied =
elements, such as experimental films, clips from Pull My Daisy and =
others, a quite extensive visit to a virtual gallery, other =
drawings/paintings (not all that great),jazz music, literary influences =
such as french symbolists, Fitzgerald and Whitman. Leroi Jones, Diane =
DiPrima, and other less well-known authors are represented. However =
there won't be any surprises in terms of audiomaterial if you already =
have CDs.
The ROMNIBUS is great, especially for the wealth of information which is =
hypertexted to Dharma Bums. Again there is a lot of real multimedia.
As for the Poetry in Motion CD-ROMS which are not restricted to Beat =
Authors, but include a lot such as McClure, Snyder, DiPrima, Anne =
Waldman, Whalen, Burroughs, Ginsberg as well as several others, there is =
less material, but on the whole you get an interview with each artist =
and a reading and/or performance.
I would recommend all of them as great value for money, and I tell you, =
they were expensive in my part of the world!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:44:56 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:38 AM 12/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I just heard the real sad news that Kathy Acker died.
>I don't know much more -- anybody else? This was
>unexpected to me as I hadn't even known she was sick.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
I am surprised people here don't know Kathy Acker. We always talk about who
is beat or who are the current equivalents today of the younger writers.
She would fit in in that discussion. Kathy Acker definately was like a
female Burroughs. She most likely was very influenced by him.
I feel somewhat sad to hear this. I read some of her books years ago but
they did not grab me too much, but I see how others might have thought very
highly of them. I began to lose some interest when in one of her books for
some reason she began to repeat all of the paragraphs three times.
Here are some web sites to look at to learn some more about her.
http://acker.thehub.com.au/acker.html
http://acker.thehub.com.au/acker3.html
http://acker.thehub.com.au/reviews.html
http://www.altx.com/io/acker.html
http://wwww.hotwired.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/10-09-04.acker.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:47:12 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Plath and the beats.
In a message dated 97-12-01 19:41:03 EST, jason wrote:
<< What if Sylvia Plath was part of the Kerouac group of writers? Would
Allen's influence change the way Plath wrote? Maybe Gregory Corso would
be running after her, trying to get a date or even worse. Maybe Cassady's
macho style would have swooned her....
Its a shame she didn't correspond with the Beats. A plath/burroughs
project would have been something to read about...
jason >>
ah, yes, perfect! and illustrated with photos by Diane Arbus!
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:50:17 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: a last word on big sur...
Reading poetry today, i came across this prayer maybe jack might've uttered
in that cabin as god and the sea spoke to him:
Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee
And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, 1962
amen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:07:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Plath and the beats.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971201190811.30822B-100000@turbo.kean.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Plath would never be part of the Kerouac group. That wasn't her jive...
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:
> What if Sylvia Plath was part of the Kerouac group of writers? Would
> Allen's influence change the way Plath wrote? Maybe Gregory Corso would
> be running after her, trying to get a date or even worse. Maybe Cassady's
> macho style would have swooned her....
> Its a shame she didn't correspond with the Beats. A plath/burroughs
> project would have been something to read about...
> jason
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:09:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: You_Be Fine <AngelMindz@AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: a last word on big sur...
This was returned to me by the Beat-L machine which said "the text in your
message was identical to etc"
boy that would be something if someone else had posted this identical
message. somehow, i think not.
trying again:
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: a last word on big sur...
Date: 97-12-01 19:51:18 EST
From: AngelMindz
To: beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu
Reading poetry today, i came across this prayer maybe jack might've uttered
in that cabin as god and the sea spoke to him:
Forgive, O Lord, my little jokes on Thee
And I'll forgive Thy great big one on me.
--Robert Frost, 1962
amen.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:17:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Bob Dylan spawned by the writings of Jack kerouac? Influenced certainly,
>but the pre-teen pictures of Dylan and his guitar with well known blues
>musicians indicates he was on his way as a musician before he'd read any
>Keroauc.
right-o, dylan's primary influence were the folk originals,
musical rather than literary.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:26:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
In-Reply-To: <971201183649_-1506923995@mrin79> from "Howard Park" at Dec 1,
97 06:36:50 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Please excuse my ignorence but - who was Kathy Acker? I'm just not familier
> with her.
Sorry, I guess I sometimes forget to explain. I may have all these
facts wrong, but here goes: NY-city based neo-beat semi-punk
transgressive (lots of drugs and sex) writer. Emerged I think
during the CBGB's era of early punk rock ('77 or so). Wrote
lots of good stuff, a real legend around the NY City Lower
East Side poetry gangs. Also somewhat successful -- got her
books in bookstores anyway ...
Very sad to see her go.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:33:12 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: beat influence
In-Reply-To: <e2f72db2.348304ed@aol.com> from "AngelMindz" at Dec 1,
97 01:41:47 pm
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
AngelMindZ mentioned my Beats In Music page at:
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Topics/BeatsInRock.html
> There's a list there, and I seem to remember invitations to people to add to
> it. So much has happened in music since I was last there, I'm sure the list
> has grown considerably.
However I've been delinquent about updating it for way too long. I've
got a bunch of entries I'm planning to add as soon as I get a free
minute.
On the matter of Adam Yauch and the Beastie Boys, I must add a
resounding "YEAH!". In fact the Boys singing about Jack Kerouac
on "Paul's Boutique" (in my opinion one of the greatest albums
of all time) was one of the things that got me to read him for
the first time. However, it was Adam Horovitz, not Adam Yauch,
who sang that line (they're both named Adam). Anyway, the
album is worth getting -- it takes a few listens to get into
though, in my experience.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:16:52 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971128124538.111fd272@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there Mike, on 29-Nov-97 you wrote...
>I was in basic training at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky the day Jack died. I
>never read a wire story as good as either of those withered ones in your
>wallet. I was just a kid then, and I'm 52 now, where did those 28 years
>go, and why don't you empty your wallet more often.
thanks mike - 50 here, those 28 tears have been interesting, and my
wallet(s) have been empty many times, but 'Ti Jean has always been there
either wrapped round my denim butt, or next to my heart in some sleek
jacket as i glowered across the table to some dearheart in a lowcut gown as
an effete waiter served up our destiny in three short courses.
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:55:55 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
In-Reply-To: <971128075630_1739453990@mrin40.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there Dennis, on 28-Nov-97 you wrote...
> The street sign for Kerouac Alley is usually missing due to theft
>although a tourist shop at Pier 39 near Fisherman's Wharf sells knockoffs.
yeah? you know how much they are and would they take orders from australia?
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:09:46 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac - oz glints
In-Reply-To: <971128093724_1282665950@mrin53.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi there You_Be, on 29-Nov-97 you wrote...
>Thank you so much for sharing these. They really took me back, too.
>Imagining these clips living in your wallet, kept close by for 28 years
>as some kind of sweet sentimental enshrinement, was also a tender
>statement of the loss of jack. Very nice.
and a bit of a passport too as i myself hit the road and hitchhiked around
and stayed in YMCA's and met other readers of his from all parts of the
world - his pic was later joined by ones of cezanne and rasputin, and once
when i was forced by the law to ahem 'disclose the contents on my person' a
rather hip old sergeant (sherrif to you) was urged to remark ' you're
either a degenerate beatnik or a revolutionary anarchist ' and took me home
to eat a wonderful meal of meat and potatoes cooked by his rather younger
wife, who read out her poems to us on the verandah (porch) as the lights in
the little town twinkled out one by one.
this was in Tasmania in 65 or 66, and when i went back a few years later, i
was told they'd split up and she (Tanya?) had run off with a writer, after
a scandal involving the sergeant nd a tourist.
>I hope you'll be encouraged to share more of your points of view from the
>other side of the world.
i think i just did :-)
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
this is sad....i just read my mother: demonology, a novel and i thought it
was one of the most unique things i had ever read
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:36:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: beat influence
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> i would like to offer adam yauch of the beastie boys as representing
>many
>beat qualities. he is constantly on the road, chasing the snow up in the
>mountains all across the country. he has become deeply spiritual and
>sometimes lets it come out in his music (the song Namaste for example).
>he
>spearheaded the tibetan freedom concert and milareapa fund. the beastie
>boys even mention jack kerouac in one of their songs.
i'll second that notion, adam lives quite the beat life when he
hangs out in thai bars...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:45:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: diane royal <droyal@SOUTHEAST.NET>
Subject: this is hilarious....it's about soap though
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hello beat-l. my mother got this on her mail and i just would like to pass
it along. it gets real good near the end.
randy
randyr@southeast.net
>>>Soap, soap, soap...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Attached is some correspondence which actually occurred between a London
>>>>hotel's staff and one of its guests. The London hotel involved submitted
>this
>>>>to the Sunday Times.
>>>>
>>>>No name was mentioned.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Maid,
>>>>
>>>>Please do not leave any more of those little bars of soap in my bathroom
>>>>since I have brought my own bath-sized Dial. Please remove the six
unopened
>>>>little bars from the shelf under the medicine chest and another three in
>the
>>>>shower soap dish. They are in my way.
>>>>
>>>>Thank you,
>>>>S. Berman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Room 635,
>>>>
>>>>I am not your regular maid. She will be back tomorrow, Thursday, from
>her day
>>>>off. I took the 3 hotel soaps out of the shower soap dish as you
requested.
>>>>The 6 bars on your shelf I took out of your way and put on top of your
>>>>Kleenex dispenser in case you should change your mind. This leaves only
>the 3
>>>>bars I left today which my instructions from the management is to leave 3
>>>>soaps daily. I hope this is satisfactory.
>>>>
>>>>Kathy, Relief Maid
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Maid -- I hope you are my regular maid.
>>>>
>>>>Apparently Kathy did not tell you about my note to her concerning the
>little
>>>>bars of soap. When I got back to my room this evening I found you had
>added 3
>>>>little Camays to the shelf under my medicine cabinet. I am going to be
here
>>>>in the hotel for two weeks and have brought my own bath-size Dial so I
>won't
>>>>need those 6 little Camays which are on the shelf. They are in my way when
>>>>shaving, brushing teeth, etc.
>>>>
>>>>Please remove them.
>>>>S. Berman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mr. Berman,
>>>>
>>>>My day off was last Wed. so the relief maid left 3 hotel soaps which we
are
>>>>instructed by the management. I took the 6 soaps which were in your way on
>>>>the shelf and put them in the soap dish where your Dial was. I put the
Dial
>>>>in the medicine cabinet for your convenience. I didn't remove the 3
>>>>complimentary soaps which are always placed inside the medicine cabinet
for
>>>>all new check-ins and which you did not object to when you checked in last
>>>>Monday. Please let me know if I can of further assistance.
>>>>
>>>>Your regular maid, Dotty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mr. Berman,
>>>>
>>>>The assistant manager, Mr. Kensedder, informed me this A.M. that you
called
>>>>him last evening and said you were unhappy with your maid service. I have
>>>>assigned a new girl to your room. I hope you will accept my apologies
>for any
>>>>past inconvenience. If you have any future complaints please contact me
>so I
>>>>can give it my personal attention. Call extension 1108 between 8AM and
5PM.
>>>>Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>Elaine Carmen
>>>>Housekeeper
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Miss Carmen,
>>>>It is impossible to contact you by phone since I leave the hotel for
>business
>>>>at 745 AM and don't get back before 530 or 6PM. That's the reason I called
>>>>Mr. Kensedder last night. You were already off duty. I only asked Mr.
>>>>Kensedder if he could do anything about those little bars of soap. The new
>>>>maid you assigned me must have thought I was a new check-in today, since
>she
>>>>left another 3 bars of hotel soap in my medicine cabinet along with her
>>>>regular delivery of 3 bars on the bath-room shelf. In just 5 days here I
>have
>>>>accumulated 24 little bars of soap. Why are you doing this to me?
>>>>
>>>>S. Berman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mr. Berman,
>>>>
>>>>Your maid, Kathy, has been instructed to stop delivering soap to your room
>>>>and remove the extra soaps. If I can be of further assistance, please call
>>>>extension 1108 between 8AM and 5PM. Thank you,
>>>>
>>>>Elaine Carmen,
>>>>Housekeeper
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mr. Kensedder,
>>>>
>>>>My bath-size Dial is missing. Every bar of soap was taken from my room
>>>>including my own bath-size Dial. I came in late last night and had to call
>>>>the bellhop to bring me 4 little Cashmere Bouquets.
>>>>
>>>>S. Berman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mr. Berman,
>>>>
>>>>I have informed our housekeeper, Elaine Carmen, of your soap problem. I
>>>>cannot understand why there was no soap in your room since our maids are
>>>>instructed to leave 3 bars of soap each time they service a room. The
>>>>situation will be rectified immediately. Please accept my apologies for
the
>>>>inconvenience.
>>>>
>>>>Martin L. Kensedder Assistant Manager
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mrs. Carmen,
>>>>
>>>>Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room? I came in last night
>>>>and found 54 little bars of soap. I don't want 54 little bars of Camay. I
>>>>want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial. Do you realize I have 54 bars of
>soap
>>>>in here. All I want is my bath size Dial. Please give me back my bath-size
>>>>Dial.
>>>>
>>>>S. Berman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mr. Berman,
>>>>
>>>>You complained of too much soap in your room so I had them removed. Then
>you
>>>>complained to Mr. Kensedder that all your soap was missing so I personally
>>>>returned them. The 24 Camays which had been taken and the 3 Camays you are
>>>>supposed to receive daily (sic). I don't know anything about the 4
Cashmere
>>>>Bouquets.
>>>>
>>>>Obviously your maid, Kathy, did not know I had returned your soaps so she
>>>>also brought 24 Camays plus the 3 daily Camays. I don't know where you got
>>>>the idea this hotel issues bath-size Dial. I was able to locate some
>>>>bath-size Ivory which I left in your room.
>>>>
>>>>Elaine
>>>>Carmen Housekeeper
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dear Mrs. Carmen,
>>>>
>>>>Just a short note to bring you up-to-date on my latest soap inventory.
>As of
>>>>today I possess:
>>>>
>>>>- - - -- On shelf under medicine cabinet - 18 Camay in 4 stacks of 4 and 1
>>>>stack of 2.
>>>>
>>>>- - - -- On Kleenex dispenser - 11 Camay in 2 stacks of 4 and 1 stack
of 3.
>>>>
>>>>- - - -- On bedroom dresser - 1 stack of 3 Cashmere Bouquet, 1 stack of 4
>>>>hotel-size Ivory, and 8 Camay in 2 stacks of 4.
>>>>
>>>>- - - -- Inside medicine cabinet - 14 Camay in 3 stacks of 4 and 1
stack of
>>>>2.
>>>>
>>>>- - - -- In shower soap dish - 6 Camay, very moist.
>>>>
>>>>- - - -- On northeast corner of tub - 1 Cashmere Bouquet, slightly used.
>>>>
>>>>- - - -- On northwest corner of tub - 6 Camays in 2 stacks of 3.
>>>>
>>>>Please ask Kathy when she services my room to make sure the stacks are
>neatly
>>>>piled and dusted. Also, please advise her that stacks of more than 4
have a
>>>>tendency to tip. May I suggest that my bedroom window sill is not in use
>and
>>>>will make an excellent spot for future soap deliveries. One more item, I
>have
>>>>purchased another bar of bath-sized Dial which I am keeping in the hotel
>>>>vault in order to avoid further misunderstandings.
>>>>
>>>>S. Berman
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:52:00 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>
Subject: Re: Reading material?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I've been a fan of the beats for almost a year. 'Course I'm a HS student
headed for an English/Philosophy major, so it was destiny. I like some of
the surrealist/post-surrealist literature more. Anyhow, some suggestions:
Desolation Angels - the first part is quite good, the second part is not as
good and more depressing.
Visions of Cody - this book, to put it very bluntly, is dense. Worse than
Ulysses in terms of complexity. But fairly good.
The Cut-ups trilogy - must read, esp. if you liked Naked Lunch. Start with
The Soft Machine and work forward.
And non-beat but...
A Scanner Darkly - the *best* book I've read about drug addiction. Better
than Naked Lunch. Exponentially easier to read, and more disturbing in its
revelations on the user-pusher-narc cycle of hopelessness. By the
psychedelic science fiction writer Philip K. Dick.
Hope these help
Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and closet intellectual
(peyotecoyote@iah.com)
"I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom,
I want goodness. I want sin." - Aldous Huxley
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:45:02 -0500
Reply-To: bonckdd@jmu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bonck, David D" <bonckdd@JMU.EDU>
Subject: Got something to say
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Hello. I'm new on this list. Just wanted to say hi. My
name's David. I'm a freshman in college. Read on the road
the beginning of senior year in high school. Fell in love
with Jack Kerouac. Went on to read Big Sur, Dharma Bums,
Desolation Angels, poems, Tristessa, ect. Started going to
the library and began learning about Kerouac and what he
did during his life. He got me into a little Zen poems.
Then found out about Ginsberg and started reading his
poems, which lead to Burroughs. I'm crazed about all these
fellows. So we will talk about the "beats" which is already
ridiculous because it is an easy and "cool" word to
remember. You can sit at a stupid coffee house and say,
"yea, the beats were cool and I really liked their
message." Fuck that. I am already talking shit because the
"beats" (at least when they were for real. I'm not talking
about Burroughs wierd new shit on CD or Cassidy riding
around in a colorful bus). But fuck it.
--
Bonck, David D
bonckdd@jmu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:52:19 -0500
Reply-To: bonckdd@jmu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bonck, David D" <bonckdd@JMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
In-Reply-To: <01BCFEC1.C02625C0@ppp85.arh.tele.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
forget the damn CD-ROMs. Read the books. Do you think the
"beats" sat around surfing the ridiculous web or reading
trash on a computer. No. They went out and DID things and
MADE history, Not read about it on the web. They were
about drinking port wine in alley ways and crying about
technology and plutonium factories. Reading any "beat"
poetry on the computer defeats the whole purpose of "beat"
poetry.
On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:20:02 +0100 Jens Koch
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK> wrote:
> Has anyone purchased any of the Beat CD-ROMs?
> I did purchase the Voyager Beat Experience and for me it has been a great buy,
because it really is multimedia and offers very varied elements, such as
experimental films, clips from Pull My Daisy and others, a quite extensive
visit to a virtual gallery, other drawings/paintings (not all that great),jazz
music, literary influences such as french symbolists, Fitzgerald and Whitman.
Leroi Jones, Diane DiPrima, and other less well-known authors are represented.
However there won't be any surprises in terms of audiomaterial if you already
have CDs.
> The ROMNIBUS is great, especially for the wealth of information which is
hypertexted to Dharma Bums. Again there is a lot of real multimedia.
> As for the Poetry in Motion CD-ROMS which are not restricted to Beat Authors,
but include a lot such as McClure, Snyder, DiPrima, Anne Waldman, Whalen,
Burroughs, Ginsberg as well as several others, there is less material, but on
the whole you get an interview with each artist and a reading and/or
performance.
> I would recommend all of them as great value for money, and I tell you, they
were expensive in my part of the world!
--
Bonck, David D
bonckdd@jmu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 00:28:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: You're right! It is hilarious....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971201224521.007b7de0@pop.southeast.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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When I saw" S. Berman" the first person who camne to mind was Sandy Berman,
librarian and author who is at the Hennipin County Library in Minneapolis,
MN. It has to be Sandy. An absolute one-of-a-kind. I'll know for a fact
tomorrow and share the information with you.
j grant
>hello beat-l. my mother got this on her mail and i just would like to pass
>it along. it gets real good near the end.
>randy
>randyr@southeast.net
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:36:19 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: beat influenced music
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> Subject:
> beat influence
> Date:
> Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:18:06 -0800
> From:
> Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
>
>
> All this talk about Bob Dylan and Jim Morrison has gotten me
> thinking about what other musicians were/are heavily influenced by the
> Beats. I see a lot of Beat influence in Patti Smith's work, as well as
> Lou Reed's and U2's. Can anyone think of any others? I'll be
> interested to hear the replies!
> Maggie
>
If you haven't heard Pete Droge yet, you really should. He does have a
song that mentions Kerouac. Also when you really get down to it, Tom
Petty also has a nice flair of telling a story within a song...
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:16:17 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Buk's shoelace
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This quiet night I thought I'd share one of Charles Bukowski's very
best.
Enjoy!
Adrien
the shoelace
------------
a woman, a
tire that's flat, a
disease, a
desire; fears in front of you,
fears that hold so still
you can study them
like pieces on a
chessboard...
it's not the large things that
send a man to the
madhouse. death he's ready for, or
murder, incest, robbery, fire, flood...
no, it's the continuing series of _small_ tragedies
that send a man to the
madhouse...
not the death of his love
but a shoelace that snaps
with no time left...
the dread of life
is that swarm of trivialities
that can kill quicker than cancer
and which are always there---
license plates or taxes
or expired driver's license,
or hiring or firing,
doing it or having it done to you, or
constipation
speeding tickets
rickets or crickets or mice or termites or
roaches or flies or a
broken hook on a
screen, or out of gas
or too much gas,
the sink's stopped-up, the landlord's drunk,
the president doesn't care and the governor's
crazy.
lightswitch broken, mattress like a
porcupine;
$105 for a tune-up, carburetor and fuel pump at
Sears Roebuck;
and the phone bill's up and the market's
down
and the toilet chain is
broken,
and the light has burned out---
the hall light, the front light, the back light,
the inner light; it's
darker than hell
and twice as
expensive.
then there's always crabs and ingrown toenails
and people who insist they're
your friends;
there's always that and worse;
leaky faucet, Christ and Christmas;
blue salami, 9 day rains,
50 cent avacados
and purple
liverwurst.
or making it
as a waitress at Norm's on the split shift,
or as an emptier of
bedpans,
or as a carwash or a busboy
or a stealer of old lady's purses
leaving them screaming on the sidewalks
with broken arms at the age of
80.
suddenly
2 red lights in your rear viw mirror
and blood in your
underwear;
toothache, and $979 for a bridge
$300 for a gold
tooth,
and China and Russia and America, and
long hair and short hair and no
hair, and beards and no
faces, and plenty of _zigzag_ but no
pot, except maybe one to piss in and
the other one around your
gut.
with each broken shoelace
out of one hundred broken shoelaces,
one man, one woman, one
thing
enters a
madhouse.
so be careful
when you
bend over.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:33:19 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sk312@pophost.city.ac.uk>
From: Daniel Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
yes, i have the beat cdrom, the one in conjunction with whitney
exhibition. it is very good, although there is much scope for further
ones as what is included is rather limited in scope and content.
advisable to buy though.....
daniel
any reports on the patti smith record? i see a photograph on the
sleeve from uncle bill's grave....
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:00:39 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Plath and the beats.
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i can imagine more clearly anne sexton. she was one of the first
poet/performance artists, collaborating with a group of musicians. the whole
shebang was called anne sexton and her kind. and i hear they were mighty
fine. i've been searching for tapes for a long time.
mc
You_Be Fine wrote:
> In a message dated 97-12-01 19:41:03 EST, jason wrote:
>
> << What if Sylvia Plath was part of the Kerouac group of writers? Would
> Allen's influence change the way Plath wrote? Maybe Gregory Corso would
> be running after her, trying to get a date or even worse. Maybe Cassady's
> macho style would have swooned her....
> Its a shame she didn't correspond with the Beats. A plath/burroughs
> project would have been something to read about...
> jason >>
>
> ah, yes, perfect! and illustrated with photos by Diane Arbus!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:05:28 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
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additionally, robert siegle has written a book about her writing and her
peers, in suburban ambush, downtown writing and the fiction of insurgency, pub
by john hopkins. it's not an anthology, it is a damned fine piece of critical
writing that also explores the roots of acker and fellow writers.
mc
Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> At 10:38 AM 12/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >I just heard the real sad news that Kathy Acker died.
> >I don't know much more -- anybody else? This was
> >unexpected to me as I hadn't even known she was sick.
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------
> >| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com
>
> I am surprised people here don't know Kathy Acker. We always talk about who
> is beat or who are the current equivalents today of the younger writers.
> She would fit in in that discussion. Kathy Acker definately was like a
> female Burroughs. She most likely was very influenced by him.
>
> I feel somewhat sad to hear this. I read some of her books years ago but
> they did not grab me too much, but I see how others might have thought very
> highly of them. I began to lose some interest when in one of her books for
> some reason she began to repeat all of the paragraphs three times.
>
> Here are some web sites to look at to learn some more about her.
>
> http://acker.thehub.com.au/acker.html
>
> http://acker.thehub.com.au/acker3.html
>
> http://acker.thehub.com.au/reviews.html
>
> http://www.altx.com/io/acker.html
>
> http://wwww.hotwired.com/talk/club/special/transcripts/10-09-04.acker.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 07:46:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Got something to say
Comments: To: "Bonck, David D" <bonckdd@jmu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <SIMEON.9712021202.A@tower.evsc.Virginia.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, we know that David can swear real well...canhe do anything else?
:) Welcome to the list...
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Bonck, David D wrote:
> Hello. I'm new on this list. Just wanted to say hi. My
> name's David. I'm a freshman in college. Read on the road
> the beginning of senior year in high school. Fell in love
> with Jack Kerouac. Went on to read Big Sur, Dharma Bums,
> Desolation Angels, poems, Tristessa, ect. Started going to
> the library and began learning about Kerouac and what he
> did during his life. He got me into a little Zen poems.
> Then found out about Ginsberg and started reading his
> poems, which lead to Burroughs. I'm crazed about all these
> fellows. So we will talk about the "beats" which is already
> ridiculous because it is an easy and "cool" word to
> remember. You can sit at a stupid coffee house and say,
> "yea, the beats were cool and I really liked their
> message." Fuck that. I am already talking shit because the
> "beats" (at least when they were for real. I'm not talking
> about Burroughs wierd new shit on CD or Cassidy riding
> around in a colorful bus). But fuck it.
>
> --
> Bonck, David D
> bonckdd@jmu.edu
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:28:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
In-Reply-To: <199712020044.QAA02953@hsc.usc.edu>
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On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> I am surprised people here don't know Kathy Acker. We always talk about who
> is beat or who are the current equivalents today of the younger writers.
> She would fit in in that discussion. Kathy Acker definately was like a
> female Burroughs. She most likely was very influenced by him.
Burroughs wrote a jacket blurb for one of her books. I remember asking
James G. about it when I saw it.
Speaking of Burroughs and jacket blurbs, I was browsing through the
shelves at Coach House Press the other day, and came across David
Gilmour's (of CBC fame, Canadian folks) first book. It had a jacket blurb
from Burroughs that I thought didn't sound much like him. I asked Stan
Bevington how Gilmour came about it, and he said: "We encouraged authors
to solicit their own jacket blurbs, and Gilmour just sent the quotation
down to Burroughs and asked him if he could tack his name on it, and
Burroughs said sure." Now there was a man who truly divorced himself from
the proprietary myth that orbits language.
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:07:17 -0500
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From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
In-Reply-To: <SIMEON.9712021219.B@tower.evsc.Virginia.EDU>
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Uhm, "dude", we're here to discuss the literature and the writers and
other prevelant information. If the purpose of the list were to support
and futher the beat lifestyle, it wouldn't exist and you wouldn't even be
here.
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Bonck, David D wrote:
> forget the damn CD-ROMs. Read the books. Do you think the
> "beats" sat around surfing the ridiculous web or reading
> trash on a computer. No. They went out and DID things and
> MADE history, Not read about it on the web. They were
> about drinking port wine in alley ways and crying about
> technology and plutonium factories. Reading any "beat"
> poetry on the computer defeats the whole purpose of "beat"
> poetry.
> On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:20:02 +0100 Jens Koch
> <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK> wrote:
>
>
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:19:44 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JOKE: FINAL INSTALLMENT
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The next year, it ws the head monk' turn to speak. He said: "Don't you
think there's too much unnecessary chatter going on around here?"
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:48:11 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: [Fwd: AG]
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This is the last communication I receivd from Kathy Acker. She was
responding to our invitation to join THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL
COMMITTEE, which plans a two-day tribute to Allen in June, the first
event in Central Park, the second event in Newark's brand, new
Performing Arts Center. Obviously she was volunteering to be on the
program, which will include many poets and performers from around the
world. We are all sorry to lose Kathy Acker. Does anyone know her age
and what she died of?
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
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<blackj@bigmagic.com>; Sat, 23 Aug 1997 08:00:41 -0400
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Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 13:13:53 +0100
To: blackj@bigmagic.com
From: acker@easynet.co.uk (Kathy Acker)
Subject: AG
X-Info: Visit the Internet Cafe On-Line at http://www.bigmagic.com.
Dear Al A,
I would be honored to be on the committee. Please tell me if I can
help in any other way.
Yours truly,
Acker
--------------4894D931EC7--
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:11:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Beat, Alive
Few of our favorite wordmen can lay claim to both nowadayz. All this talk
about L. Ferlinghetti has got me thinking about another living master, Mr.
Corso, Gregory the Herald. I think that all those who really love Kerouac
can appreciate Corso in a great way, because Jack was so damn fond of him.
Thru Jack (in _Desolation Angels_, for example) you really get a sense of
what a genius and a hipster Corso really was (and is). I believe that the
greatest thing about the Beat prose (mostly Kerouac) is the fantastic sense
of closeness between all those cats, who were of course close friends.
Kerouac got his greatest kicks not off port wine or Zen or lone rucksack
wandering (though he loved these), but off his friends, without whom he would
have been lost, if not lost then not as powerful a writer as he turned out to
be. And I think Jack's fondness for G. Corso shines thru the most...he
really believed Corso to be (I think) the greatest genius among his
friends...perhaps he appreciated Corso's literary and spiritual gift even
more so than he dug A.G.'s...
Corso is the great destroyer of the banal, the Herald who truly fought to
break on thru (Morrison for ya) to a Blakean flip-side...
"2 Weird Happenings in Haarlem" by Gregory Corso
Four windmills, acquaintanceships,
were spied one morning eating tulips.
Noon
and the entire city flips
screaming: Apocalypse! Apocalypse!
O people! my people!
something weirdly architectural
like a rackety cannibal
came to Haarlem last night
and ate up a canal!
They all loved "Raphael Urso," mad Manhattan lyricist anyone can dig...
Peace,
Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:41:05 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Beat Spirit
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I stopped by the bookstore last wednesday and I saw a book in the new paper
back section called Beat Spirit by Mel Ash.
It was some sort of work book. It had sections on kerouac Burroughs and
others and then had excercises the reader should do to attune their beat
spirit, I guess. One thing I remember was you were supposed to fill in a
pie chart with your racial background or something like that.
Anyone seen this book? Know anything about it? Have an opinion etc...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:58:45 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de>
From: "Moritz Rossbach, moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de"
<moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>
Subject: Re: beat influence
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971201125838.8116D-100000@engr.arizona.edu>
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matt wrote
> sometimes lets it come out in his music (the song Namaste for example). he
> spearheaded the tibetan freedom concert and milareapa fund. the beastie
> boys even mention jack kerouac in one of their songs.
>
that's right, i was just about to mention that!
unfortunately, i don't know much about adam yauch's personal life,
but the beastie boys are definitly beat. even if you don't like
hip-hop you have to admit that they kinda transformed the idea of the
beats into their culture and generation.
the song by the way is "high plains drifter" on the "paul's boutique"
album.
nice to be back again!
yours
//
(o o)
--------oOO-(_)-OOo------sincerely
moritz rossbach
saarbruecken, germany
moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de
http://stud.uni-sb.de/~moro0000
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:18:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Spirit
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0a97ae2920b@[128.125.223.186]>
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I havent seen it but it sounds stupid to me, like a good gag gift
maybe...
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> I stopped by the bookstore last wednesday and I saw a book in the new paper
> back section called Beat Spirit by Mel Ash.
>
> It was some sort of work book. It had sections on kerouac Burroughs and
> others and then had excercises the reader should do to attune their beat
> spirit, I guess. One thing I remember was you were supposed to fill in a
> pie chart with your racial background or something like that.
>
> Anyone seen this book? Know anything about it? Have an opinion etc...
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:13:32 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Thomas E. Harberd" <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
In-Reply-To: <SIMEON.9712021219.B@tower.evsc.Virginia.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Bonck, David D wrote:
> forget the damn CD-ROMs. Read the books. Do you think the
> "beats" sat around surfing the ridiculous web or reading
> trash on a computer. No. They went out and DID things and
> MADE history, Not read about it on the web. They were
> about drinking port wine in alley ways and crying about
> technology and plutonium factories. Reading any "beat"
> poetry on the computer defeats the whole purpose of "beat"
> poetry.
> On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:20:02 +0100 Jens Koch
> <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK> wrote:
By which token the entire purpose of the books themselves is also fucked,
since if Beat is about the EXPERIENCE, and living, actually doing, then
what the hell are any of us bothering to actually BUY/Borrow/STEAL and
the READ the books? Why don't we just get on the road? 'Cos we like the
words, the books, the art, the beauty, and if that can't be expressed in
ANY media form, then the future gets darker.
Tom.
sorry I couldn't cut text below, mouse not working.
"I, at least, had the good sense to go insane during adolensence." WSB Jr.
> > Has anyone purchased any of the Beat CD-ROMs?
> > I did purchase the Voyager Beat Experience and for me it has been a great
buy,
> because it really is multimedia and offers very varied elements, such as
> experimental films, clips from Pull My Daisy and others, a quite extensive
> visit to a virtual gallery, other drawings/paintings (not all that
great),jazz
> music, literary influences such as french symbolists, Fitzgerald and Whitman.
> Leroi Jones, Diane DiPrima, and other less well-known authors are
represented.
> However there won't be any surprises in terms of audiomaterial if you already
> have CDs.
> > The ROMNIBUS is great, especially for the wealth of information which is
> hypertexted to Dharma Bums. Again there is a lot of real multimedia.
> > As for the Poetry in Motion CD-ROMS which are not restricted to Beat
Authors,
> but include a lot such as McClure, Snyder, DiPrima, Anne Waldman, Whalen,
> Burroughs, Ginsberg as well as several others, there is less material, but on
> the whole you get an interview with each artist and a reading and/or
> performance.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:23:13 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a sonnet by Wanda Coleman
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997120123523324@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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12. by Wanda Coleman
after Robert Duncan
my earliest dreams linger/wronged spirits
who will not rest/dusky crows astride
the sweetbriar seek to fly the
orchard's sky. is this the world i loved?
groves of perfect oranges and streets of stars
where the sad eyes of my youth
wander the atomic-age paradise
tasting
the blood of a stark and wounded puberty?
o what years ago? what rapture lost in white
heat of skin/walls that patina my heart's
despair? what fear disturbs my quiet
night's grazing? stampedes my soul?
o memory. i sweat the eternal weight of graves
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:58:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Gene Lee <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: a sonnet by Wanda Coleman
Man! that is one great sonnet! who is Wanda Coleman?!
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:59:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: a sonnet by Wanda Coleman
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971202192313.00c6f7e0@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I like this poem, especially the line "the sad eyes of my youth", matches
my mood perfectly...
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> 12. by Wanda Coleman
>
> after Robert Duncan
>
> my earliest dreams linger/wronged spirits
> who will not rest/dusky crows astride
> the sweetbriar seek to fly the
> orchard's sky. is this the world i loved?
> groves of perfect oranges and streets of stars
> where the sad eyes of my youth
> wander the atomic-age paradise
>
> tasting
>
> the blood of a stark and wounded puberty?
> o what years ago? what rapture lost in white
> heat of skin/walls that patina my heart's
> despair? what fear disturbs my quiet
> night's grazing? stampedes my soul?
>
> o memory. i sweat the eternal weight of graves
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:38:24 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: this is hilarious....it's about soap though
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> >>>>Dear Mrs. Carmen,
> >>>>
> >>>>Who the hell left 54 little bars of Camay in my room? I came in last night
> >>>>and found 54 little bars of soap. I don't want 54 little bars of Camay. I
> >>>>want my one damn bar of bath-size Dial. Do you realize I have 54 bars of
> >soap
> >>>>in here. All I want is my bath size Dial. Please give me back my bath-size
> >>>>Dial.
> >>>>
> >>>>S. Berman
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Now you know why life is greater than fiction...
daniel caridade (I'm laughing my bowels out...)
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:18:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Timothy Franklin Thomas <tt324696@OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
Comments: To: "Bonck, David D" <bonckdd@jmu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <SIMEON.9712021219.B@tower.evsc.Virginia.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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It's impossible to guess how Jack et al may have made use of this new
technology. Don't be to sure of your position. With the sheer volume of
letters available I believe they would have made good use of email. I also
believe they loved experimenting with different media to express
themselves. Look at Jack's adventures onto records, William's in film and
cds, and Allen's recordings and use of video. They experimented with
film, music, tape players, and more recently video and cds. I find it hard
to believe they would have disregarded something as powerful as
contemporary computers. Yes they lived life instead of sat in front of a
terminal and yes they drank wine and cried. They also loved to drink and
discuss and argue and critique. They were thirsty for information and
would have used the internet to quench their thirst. You forget the hours
and days that Jack spent in front of his typewriter driven by benzadrine.
Storing "On The Road" on a floppy makes as much sense as a teletype roll.
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Bonck, David D wrote:
> forget the damn CD-ROMs. Read the books. Do you think the
> "beats" sat around surfing the ridiculous web or reading
> trash on a computer. No. They went out and DID things and
> MADE history, Not read about it on the web. They were
> about drinking port wine in alley ways and crying about
> technology and plutonium factories. Reading any "beat"
> poetry on the computer defeats the whole purpose of "beat"
> poetry.
> On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:20:02 +0100 Jens Koch
> <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone purchased any of the Beat CD-ROMs?
> > I did purchase the Voyager Beat Experience and for me it has been a great
buy,
> because it really is multimedia and offers very varied elements, such as
> experimental films, clips from Pull My Daisy and others, a quite extensive
> visit to a virtual gallery, other drawings/paintings (not all that
great),jazz
> music, literary influences such as french symbolists, Fitzgerald and Whitman.
> Leroi Jones, Diane DiPrima, and other less well-known authors are
represented.
> However there won't be any surprises in terms of audiomaterial if you already
> have CDs.
> > The ROMNIBUS is great, especially for the wealth of information which is
> hypertexted to Dharma Bums. Again there is a lot of real multimedia.
> > As for the Poetry in Motion CD-ROMS which are not restricted to Beat
Authors,
> but include a lot such as McClure, Snyder, DiPrima, Anne Waldman, Whalen,
> Burroughs, Ginsberg as well as several others, there is less material, but on
> the whole you get an interview with each artist and a reading and/or
> performance.
> > I would recommend all of them as great value for money, and I tell you, they
> were expensive in my part of the world!
>
> --
> Bonck, David D
> bonckdd@jmu.edu
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:33:56 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: at the end of a gone year .......
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hey all,
Here at the end of a year of so many gone. Allen gone, my father Don
Young gone, Jeff Buckley gone, Burroughs gone, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
gone, Acker gone ......etc. I feel like I need to get my feet on the
ground. so much spinning in loss.
What's the next phase? When will there be a return of wonder (to quote
Ferlinghetti)? Is it already here? Am I asleep in my walking already
too far gone?
I am heading to New York for five days around New Years. I've got my
Bill Morgan book in hand and I am hoping to check out some of the
haunts. I also hope to check out the St. Marks Poetry marthon reading
on New Years Day. I might also visit Anthology Film Archives, hoping
to find more info on Harry Smith.
I was wondering if any of you NY area BEAT-L'ers might like to meet at
McSorley's for a drink. Let's drink to the return of wonder.
Peace be upon you all,
Sean D. Young
syoung@dsw.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:51:18 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs' letters/routines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.971201091629.15705A-100000@picard.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
> can't recall right now). I haven't been able to track down a copy of
> Letters to Allen Ginsberg, but I imagine there's more goodies in there.
My library has a copy of _Letters to Allen Ginsberg_. I haven't gone thru
it all, but it appears that there's little or nothing in it that isn't
also in the later Harris-edited volume (except for brief intros by WSB &
AG).
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:55:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs archives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.971126131229.9157A-100000@picard.math.uwaterloo.ca>
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On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Neil Hennessy wrote:
> biography. Of course, it might be something about the Miles edited "Evil
> River: An Autobiography", to be assembled from Burroughs' journal notes in
> the 80's.
Hey! I've been trying to find out something about this _Evil River_ book
for a long time. More than a year ago, a listing for it appeared in Books
in Print (with "publication date not set"). I posted repeated inquiries to
the list about it, but no one ever responded. Where did you find out about
it?
*******
Jeff Taylor
taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
*******
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:19:11 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
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At 03:18 PM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>It's impossible to guess how Jack et al may have made use of this new
>technology. Don't be to sure of your position. With the sheer volume of
>letters available I believe they would have made good use of email. I also
>believe they loved experimenting with different media to express
>themselves. Look at Jack's adventures onto records, William's in film and
>cds, and Allen's recordings and use of video. They experimented with
>film, music, tape players, and more recently video and cds. I find it hard
>to believe they would have disregarded something as powerful as
>contemporary computers. Yes they lived life instead of sat in front of a
>terminal and yes they drank wine and cried. They also loved to drink and
>discuss and argue and critique. They were thirsty for information and
>would have used the internet to quench their thirst. You forget the hours
>and days that Jack spent in front of his typewriter driven by benzadrine.
>Storing "On The Road" on a floppy makes as much sense as a teletype roll.
I agree here for sure. He would have loved the word processor where he
could sit and type for as long as he wanted without having to worry about
stopping to hit the return bar (not a big deal for him as it is part of the
typing process) but more so he wouldn't have to have stopped to put in
another piece of paper. That was the reason he taped the paper together and
later used the long teletype rolls.
He never would have had to deal with the concentration breaking paper
aspects of typing.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:05:35 -0500
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From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Burroughs archives
I posted this once before on behalf of James Grauerholz, but it's worth
posting again. This was in response to a question raised by listmember Jason
De Matte, who was wondering about the disposition of the Burroughs Estate,
including his guns:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
James Grauerholz, who has been with Burroughs for over 23 years, is his heir.
The estate is set up (like Allen Ginsberg's) as a Trust. James intends to
administer this Trust as a sacred legacy, continuing the artistic and social
purposes of Burroughs' entire life and work.
None of WSB's personal possessions (such as his guns) will be sold; his house
is being kept just as it was during his lifetime, by a caretaker who is a
close friend, and his two surviving cats (Ginger and Muty) are lovingly cared
for, in the home. The majority of the archives are already on deposit at
Ohio State University, and WSB's letters and mss. will _not_ be sold on the
collector's market, at all.
Forthcoming artistic works include (not in order of projected release):
(working title) Last Words: The Final Journals of WSB -- based on writings
from the last two years of William's life; publisher probably Grove/Atlantic,
but not yet set
Word Virus: The Selected Writings of WSB (Grove/Atlantic) -- a "portable"
Burroughs reader, edited by James G. and Ira Silverberg
The Third Mind (Grove/Atlantic) -- a facsimile edition of the original 1965
Burroughs-Gysin collage manuscript (as seen in the LA County Museum catalog
for the "Ports of Entry" show)
(working title) Prakriti Junction: A Portrait of William Burroughs, Jr.
(Grove/Atlantic) -- a collection of Billy's unpublished writings from the
last seven years of his life ('74-'81), with letters by him and to him,
interviews and other documents; edited by David Ohle
The Letters of William S. Burroughs, Volume II, 1959-1974 (Viking Penguin) --
a continuation of Volume I (1945-1959), edited by Oliver Harris
(working title) Evil River: An Autobiography (Viking Penguin) -- composed of
memoir writings by WSB made during the 1980s, edited by Barry Miles
William S. Burroughs on Giorno Poetry Systems (Mouth Almighty / Mercury
Records) -- a four-CD boxed set of all of WSB's recordings issued on the GPS
label, plus some never-released material, accompanied by five
fully-illustrated booklets of text etc.
Naked Lunch, The Audiobook (performed by WSB) -- originally released by Time
Warner Audio Books in 1995, with music by Bill Frisell, Wayne Horvitz and
Eyvind Kang, produced by Hal Willner and James Grauerholz; to be re-edited by
HW & JG for re-release in an improved version
Queer, The Audiobook -- to be performed by Steve Buscemi this year
------------------------------------------------------------
I don't have the details (who does? can you post them?) but there's an art
exhibit featuring paintings by Burroughs and George Condo in New York right
now, for those of you in that neck of the woods.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:26:28 -0500
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From: First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
to the person who originally posted about kathy acker:
where did you hear that she died?
when did it happen?
and how?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:08:08 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kris Kurrus <kurrus@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Death of Kathy Acker
In-Reply-To: <971202172627_666655002@mrin40.mail.aol.com>
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Just an FYI to all those interested... I got this post in this morning's
email, after reading here that she had died....
<snip>
>Yes, Kathy died at 1:30 a.m., 30 November, in Tijuana,
>from cancer. She'd been fighting it years, thought she had it licked
>last spring, then in October discovered it had taken over her body. She
>was 50. We were good friends, so it's a hard loss. She taught us all
>so much.
<snip>
Just a note: Kathy's memoriam picture at the hub, was shot by Allen
Ginsberg in 1985, and she wrote "In Memoriam 2 Oblivion" last spring....
she admired Burroughs, and he taught her the "cut up" that she later
rejected.... needless to say she was a familar of the beats....
she was a great author, who will be remembered for years to come....
******************************
kris kurrus
all extremes were popular with that crowd
the singers shouted the musicians stomped and howled
the dancers ground each other past passion or moved so fast
it blurred intelligence
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:41:09 -0500
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From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Beat Bars/Taverns
Comments: To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971202150808.0069973c@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
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Being relatively new to NYC, I was wondering what bars the beat writers
used to hang out in (or what bars that are still operating) I know of
McSorley's of course..but what other current bars are out there that have
a beat history?
rjw
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:06:28 -0500
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From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Burroughs' letters/routines
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.971202144859.570493698A-100000@ctrvax.Vande
rbilt.Edu>
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At 14:51 02/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Neil M. Hennessy wrote:
>
>> can't recall right now). I haven't been able to track down a copy of
>> Letters to Allen Ginsberg, but I imagine there's more goodies in there.
>
>My library has a copy of _Letters to Allen Ginsberg_. I haven't gone thru
>it all, but it appears that there's little or nothing in it that isn't
>also in the later Harris-edited volume (except for brief intros by WSB &
>AG).
>
>*******
>Jeff Taylor
>taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu
>*******
>
I have a copy of Letters To Allen Ginsberg. Now, I live in a small town in
Australia (Tamworth) where getting books is next to impossible. About eight
years ago, I went into the bookstore here, and ordered Letters to AG, never
expecting to hear another thing, as is usually the case. To my
astonishment, about two months later the book arrived! I couldn't believe.
To this day, I still can't believe it. Yet, here it is, right in front of
me. Published by Full Court Press in 1981. To this day, it remains the only
WSB I've ever managed to get in Tamworth ... One for Ripley's.
Glenn C.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want
to achieve it through not dying."
-- Woody Allen.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:18:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:41:09 -0500 from
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
There's the White Horse Tavern on Hudson Street, The West End Bar near Columbia
(around 114th)...The Kettle of Fish and the Cedar bar are in new locations. Bi
ll Morgan's book contains additional information.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:52:37 -0500
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From: Anthony Celentano <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Spirit
I wanted to rend the book to tatters and burn it when I saw the damn thing!
It is real real stupid and it is an insult to the beat writers, what a
stupid book! I thumbed through the piece of shite at Shakespeare and Co
here in Manhattan...recall one part about "how to be a TRUE Beat" or somethin
like that..."to be "beat", you've got to snap your fingers, snap them all
the time, and right after you snap them get in the habit of saying
"dig!"".....I wanted to break my teeth by means of expressing a radiator!
Anthony
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:03:41 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Crooked Road
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.93.971202145943.16077A-100000@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I recently picked up a book called "Kerouac's crooked road", (author?) and
its about Kerouac's writing process. I was suprised to find out that
Kerouac did several meticulous revisions of On The Road. Its a very
interesting book...
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:04:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: at the end of a gone year .......
In-Reply-To: <48470C30.1326@dsw.com>
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I'd love to go to McSorely's but unfortunately, not everyone on the list
is wholly legal....
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Sean Young wrote:
> hey all,
>
>
> Here at the end of a year of so many gone. Allen gone, my father Don
> Young gone, Jeff Buckley gone, Burroughs gone, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
> gone, Acker gone ......etc. I feel like I need to get my feet on the
> ground. so much spinning in loss.
>
> What's the next phase? When will there be a return of wonder (to quote
> Ferlinghetti)? Is it already here? Am I asleep in my walking already
> too far gone?
>
> I am heading to New York for five days around New Years. I've got my
> Bill Morgan book in hand and I am hoping to check out some of the
> haunts. I also hope to check out the St. Marks Poetry marthon reading
> on New Years Day. I might also visit Anthology Film Archives, hoping
> to find more info on Harry Smith.
>
> I was wondering if any of you NY area BEAT-L'ers might like to meet at
> McSorley's for a drink. Let's drink to the return of wonder.
>
> Peace be upon you all,
>
> Sean D. Young
>
> syoung@dsw.com
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:08:38 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997120220252035@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern. May I recommend the
mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and Sam Adams?
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
> There's the White Horse Tavern on Hudson Street, The West End Bar near
Columbia
> (around 114th)...The Kettle of Fish and the Cedar bar are in new locations.
Bi
> ll Morgan's book contains additional information.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:09:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Spirit
In-Reply-To: <971202205237_2006958081@mrin58.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Was this meant to be a serious publication or was it a satire/parody
thing?
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Anthony Celentano wrote:
> I wanted to rend the book to tatters and burn it when I saw the damn thing!
> It is real real stupid and it is an insult to the beat writers, what a
> stupid book! I thumbed through the piece of shite at Shakespeare and Co
> here in Manhattan...recall one part about "how to be a TRUE Beat" or somethin
> like that..."to be "beat", you've got to snap your fingers, snap them all
> the time, and right after you snap them get in the habit of saying
> "dig!"".....I wanted to break my teeth by means of expressing a radiator!
>
> Anthony
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:22:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac CDROM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Though this has probably been talked about before....
I just got the ROMnibus as the developers offer a much better price than
Penguin. It is in-fucking-credible, as the kids say. There is just so
much information there. The sound and picture archive is phenomenal. I
only go a chance to play with it for about an hour and was completely
enthralled. Am planning to kill all 5 hours of work in the lab Thursday
night with it. I don't care what your opinion is of the Beats and
technology, you will be fascinated. I love the fact that it plays the
Steve Allen clip each time you boot it up. If only to use the CD, it
makes the upgrade I'm shelling out for worth it.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:20:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac CDROM
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971202231647.21098A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
wah! I dont have CD-ROM...:(
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Alex Howard wrote:
> Though this has probably been talked about before....
>
> I just got the ROMnibus as the developers offer a much better price than
> Penguin. It is in-fucking-credible, as the kids say. There is just so
> much information there. The sound and picture archive is phenomenal. I
> only go a chance to play with it for about an hour and was completely
> enthralled. Am planning to kill all 5 hours of work in the lab Thursday
> night with it. I don't care what your opinion is of the Beats and
> technology, you will be fascinated. I love the fact that it plays the
> Steve Allen clip each time you boot it up. If only to use the CD, it
> makes the upgrade I'm shelling out for worth it.
>
> ------------------
> Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
> kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
> http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:50:59 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crooked Road
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The author is Tim Hunt. Good book if you like this sort of thing, ie
literary analysis.
The other one I am aware of is the Spontaneous Poetics of Jack kerouac by
Regina Weirich (whose last name I believe I misspelled).
>I recently picked up a book called "Kerouac's crooked road", (author?) and
>its about Kerouac's writing process. I was suprised to find out that
>Kerouac did several meticulous revisions of On The Road. Its a very
>interesting book...
>
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:52:03 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Spirit
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Was this meant to be a serious publication or was it a satire/parody
>thing?
>
I didn't see the finger snapping dig part but I gathered it was meant to be
serious.
>
>On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Anthony Celentano wrote:
>
>> I wanted to rend the book to tatters and burn it when I saw the damn thing!
>> It is real real stupid and it is an insult to the beat writers, what a
>> stupid book! I thumbed through the piece of shite at Shakespeare and Co
>> here in Manhattan...recall one part about "how to be a TRUE Beat" or somethin
>> like that..."to be "beat", you've got to snap your fingers, snap them all
>> the time, and right after you snap them get in the habit of saying
>> "dig!"".....I wanted to break my teeth by means of expressing a radiator!
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:08:50 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Spirit
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:52 PM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I wanted to rend the book to tatters and burn it when I saw the damn thing!
> It is real real stupid and it is an insult to the beat writers, what a
>stupid book! I thumbed through the piece of shite at Shakespeare and Co
>here in Manhattan...recall one part about "how to be a TRUE Beat" or somethin
>like that..."to be "beat", you've got to snap your fingers, snap them all
>the time, and right after you snap them get in the habit of saying
>"dig!"".....I wanted to break my teeth by means of expressing a radiator!
>
>Anthony
>
>
Whaddya mean, that's how all the rest of us became beatniks!
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:30:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crooked Road
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0aa506d3f52@[128.125.223.215]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I'm using it as a secondary source for a paper Im writing for my writing
workshop class (yuck) on Kerouac's central preoccupation in his essays. Im
using some stuff from "Good Blonde and Others" as essays because I wanted
to use an author I really liked,so I took the liberty of creating a loose
definition of essay, which Kerouac's just happened to fall under...ahem.
~Nancy
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:
> The author is Tim Hunt. Good book if you like this sort of thing, ie
> literary analysis.
>
> The other one I am aware of is the Spontaneous Poetics of Jack kerouac by
> Regina Weirich (whose last name I believe I misspelled).
>
>
>
> >I recently picked up a book called "Kerouac's crooked road", (author?) and
> >its about Kerouac's writing process. I was suprised to find out that
> >Kerouac did several meticulous revisions of On The Road. Its a very
> >interesting book...
> >
> >
> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> >Sure-JK
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:31:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Some of the Dharma
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971203030231.1b5fdb34@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Anyone going tonight? I'll see you there!
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:51:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Gender of Nature...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:15:31 -0400
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Preston Whaley <paw8670@MAILER.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
>a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
>and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
>reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
>~Nancy
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
The man on the moon is a man on the moon not the moon. Ancient Egyptian
god is the sun god -- "Ra." Louis XIV was Louis the "Sun King." The Sun is
imagined active, the moon passive. Old as patriarchy. The man on the moon
is where you'd expect him to be.
Preston
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:41:30 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
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>
> >Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
> >a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
> >and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc).
While I bemoan the fact, legends have it that a star including ol sol is
usually male, the dear moon, a strong feminine force. My astrologist
says that women are often more like their moon than their sun sign. One
of my first stories was sharply critiqued in class for i had a wandering
star transformed into a woman here on earth. The guys basically said ,
stars are guys. Of course i am thankfull for the more gender flexible
age we live in. for the stars i believe spin either way.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:45:49 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
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Generally the moon is tied to the feminine nature for many reasons. The sun is
tied to masculine nature. There is a good section in The White Goddess wherein
Graves discusses the difference between the muse poet who is connected with the
moon goddess and the Appollonian poet who is connected with the sun or father
god. I believe that Jack would be very accurate in his description of the moon
as feminine and the sun as masculine. After all, Appollo drives the chariot,
at least sometimes.
Preston Whaley wrote:
> >Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
> >a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
> >and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
> >reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
> >~Nancy
> >
> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> >Sure-JK
>
> The man on the moon is a man on the moon not the moon. Ancient Egyptian
> god is the sun god -- "Ra." Louis XIV was Louis the "Sun King." The Sun is
> imagined active, the moon passive. Old as patriarchy. The man on the moon
> is where you'd expect him to be.
>
> Preston
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:08:44 +0000
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From: ALAN PETER MADDRELL <apm5@ABER.AC.UK>
Subject: Something to say etc....
In-Reply-To: <E0xd7DE-0005mU-00@ultra2.aber.ac.uk>
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>You can sit at a stupid coffee house and say,
>"yea, the beats were cool and I really liked their
>message." Fuck that. I am already talking shit because the
>"beats" (at least when they were for real. I'm not talking
>about Burroughs wierd new shit on CD or Cassidy riding
>around in a colorful bus). But fuck it.
>Bonck, David D
>bonckdd@jmu.edu
Seems to me this thought encapsulates a lot of the talk that has been
floating around this list for a while. 'S true, I am certainly with David
on some points here. As I understand it, the beat spirit has nothing to do
with the time in which it most notably occurred (namely '40s-'60s, very
broadly). Critic might say that the movement sprang from bomb horror,
postwar angst and so on, but these are merely the symptoms. I wouldn't find
it surprising if a near exact parallel movement arrived on my doorstep
tomorrow. Same horrors, my dears, just the words change and the means
through which they may be expressed.
Jesus, three o'clock in the PM and drunk already. Not good...
So, my tuppence's worth says it doesn't matter through which medium the
message is to be obtained. CD-ROMs are *just as much* an avoidance of True
Living as books are. Literature, by (tentative) definition, is an escape
from the ghastly banality of the process of living as is any other form of
art. Otherwise, why bother? It's a common misconception to think that books
are somehow superior as art works to theatre, a painting, sculpture, film
or a really decent CD-ROM. Each has their merits, and I have studied them all.
The dangers of attaching the beat generation to a specific period in time
have been expressed pretty well in "Beatnik" by Toby Litt, a new novel in
which a group of teenagers become obsessed with the idea of 1966, and cut
out from their lives anything that arrived on the scene after that. At
times I am reminded of these tragic chars. by some of the antics of those
who would eulogise and chemically preserve an unrealistic ideal of life at
that time. My advice? Don't wear black, don't snap your fingers, and don't
call anything or anyone "hep" or "cat". A tenner says no real beat ever did
after it became "cool" to do so.
Consequently, the B-Boys nicely capture the beat spirit (as incidentally do
Genet, arguably Keats etc.), whilst not being tied to the time. To my mind
the greatest of the writers of that time, Burroughs, said this in The Job:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To travel in space you must learn to leave the old verbal garbage behind:
food talk, priest talk, mother talk, family talk, love talk, party talk,
country talk. You must learn to exist with no religion, no country, no
allies. You must learn to see what is in front of you with no
preconceptions.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's reasonable to include time talk in that as a footnote.
Well, that's me de-lurkified for a spell, just seemed worthwhile to point
out that in his first post David observed something quite central to the
nature of the study of beat literature.
ttfn,
Alan Maddrell
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:12:09 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
bought a cd rom called the beat experience...put out by voyager... a lot of
fun, interesting............
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:12:13 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Elias <SPElias@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
I hope to heaven this is not true--that she has died. I saw her in a
performance with the Mekons at the MCA just over a month ago. She seemed in
good health and spirits at the time. She was a wonderfully obnoxious sexy
surrealist avant garde author.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:30:46 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Something to say etc....
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> Alan Peter Maddrell wrote:
> So, my tuppence's worth says it doesn't matter through which medium the
> message is to be obtained. CD-ROMs are *just as much* an avoidance of >
> True
> Living as books are. Literature, by (tentative) definition, is an >
> escape
> from the ghastly banality of the process of living as is any other form
> of
> art. Otherwise, why bother?
Just how tentative is your definition?: "Literature...is an escape from
the ghastly banality of the process of living." No doubt some literature
is meant to be an escape, mostly the top ten paperbacks on the New York
Times' bestseller list. There are some books you read to escape, others
to seek more understanding of what it means to be human. Most Beat
literature I would put in the second category and not the first. Most of
us on this list probably have an affinity for Beat literature because we
identify with the lifestyle and the ideas. But I doubt many of us escape
true living by being caught up in literature. Most great literature, no
matter who it is written by, gives us insight into the nature of the
human condition, so in fact we do not escape our own condition but
broaden our ideas of what life is about by the insights of others into
human psychological and philosophical dilemmas. Good literature moves us
emotionally and reconnects us to, not disconnects us from, the the human
experience. I really don't see how anyone can read Kerouac, Ginsberg, or
Burroughs as escape-ism. I read it and most good literature as a way of
enriching the meaning of my own life. How can reading Kerouac, for
instance, allow you to escape from true living? How, by reading him, can
you escape your own despair or moments of joy, a dualism that is a part
of everyone's life? If anything he accentuates pain and death and the
constant struggle of each of us to come to terms with these things in our
own lives.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:43:27 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Woodrow Wilson (Woody) Guthrie (1912-1967)
In-Reply-To: <19971201182720.17752.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com>
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song to woody by Bob Dylan (1962)
I'm out here
a thousand miles from home
walking a road
other men have gone down
I'm seeing a new world
of people and things
hear paupers and peasants
and princes and kings
hey hey woody guthrie
I wrote you a song
about the funny old world
that's coming along
seems sick and it's hungry
it's tired and it's torn
it looks like it's dying
and it's hardly been born
hey woody guthrie
but I know that you know
all the things I'm singing
and many time more
I'm singing you this song
but I can't sing enough
'cause there's not many men
that've done the things you've done
here's to cisco and sonny
and leadbelly too
and to all the good people
that travelled with you
here's to the hearts
and the hands of the men
that come with the dust
and are gone with the wind
I'm leaving tomorrow
but I could leave today
somewhere down the road
someday
the very last thing
that I'd want to do
is to say
I've been hitting some hard travelling too
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:49:41 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "L.W. Deal" <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Something to say etc....
In a message dated 97-12-03 12:35:09 EST, DC writes:
<< Most great literature, no
matter who it is written by, gives us insight into the nature of the
human condition, so in fact we do not escape our own condition but
broaden our ideas of what life is about by the insights of others into
human psychological and philosophical dilemmas. >>
I'm with you on this one wholeheartedly, DC. Reading Kerouac, Burroughs, Jim
Carroll, etc etc etc has done nothing but greatly deepen my understanding of
what it is to live & to relish & to realize.... You said it all & said it
damn well...
Starfishes from Seattle
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:52:53 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: Death of Kathy Acker
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Kris Kurrus wrote:
> Just a note: Kathy's memoriam picture at the hub, was shot by Allen
> Ginsberg in 1985, and she wrote "In Memoriam 2 Oblivion"
Pardon my ignorance, would you mind saying a little more about In
Memoriam 2 Oblivion ?
Sorry to say that I'm one of those lost sheep who didn't have a clue
about who was Kathy Acker...
thanks in advance,
daniel caridade
caridade@mail.telepac.pt
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:16:34 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
In-Reply-To: <v01540b01b0ab0a9a8914@[146.201.2.136]>
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Point well taken. Thanks for the clarification....
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Preston Whaley wrote:
> >Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
> >a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
> >and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
> >reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
> >~Nancy
> >
> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> >Sure-JK
>
> The man on the moon is a man on the moon not the moon. Ancient Egyptian
> god is the sun god -- "Ra." Louis XIV was Louis the "Sun King." The Sun is
> imagined active, the moon passive. Old as patriarchy. The man on the moon
> is where you'd expect him to be.
>
> Preston
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:17:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
In-Reply-To: <971203111212_1380716563@mrin79>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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her obit was in this week's Voice...
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Sean Elias wrote:
> I hope to heaven this is not true--that she has died. I saw her in a
> performance with the Mekons at the MCA just over a month ago. She seemed in
> good health and spirits at the time. She was a wonderfully obnoxious sexy
> surrealist avant garde author.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:18:20 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
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>Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon
>as
>a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the
>moon)
>and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
>reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
well, in eastern thought the female yin, is dark and damp, the
valley spirit if you've read the tao te ching, the male is the bright
half, the white, etc... the woman is the dark mystery force of life,
the gate to life.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:23:21 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Death of Kathy Acker
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same here - showing my ignorance, but i've never heard of her.... =
ciao, sherri
-----
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: Death of Kathy Acker
>Sorry to say that I'm one of those lost sheep who didn't have a clue
>about who was Kathy Acker...
>
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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>same here - =
showing my=20
ignorance, but i've never heard of her.... ciao, =
sherri</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----<BR>From: caridade <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT">caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT</A>>=
<BR>To:=20
<A href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A> =
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU">BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU</A>><BR>=
Date:=20
Wednesday, December 03, 1997 10:16 AM<BR>Subject: Re: Death of Kathy=20
Acker<BR><BR></FONT> </DIV>>Sorry to say that I'm one of those =
lost=20
sheep who didn't have a clue<BR>>about who was Kathy=20
Acker...<BR>><BR></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_008B_01BCFFD5.7ABC29C0--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:17:50 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
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Classical mythology: diana/artemis was the moon goddess of the hunt.
mc
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
> a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
> and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
> reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
> ~Nancy
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:29:19 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
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classical greek mythology: apollo the sun god./artemis moon goddess of the hunt.
and to be a bit frankly speaking here: men do not have 'monthly"
(ie menses).
makes sense to me.
mc
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> Point well taken. Thanks for the clarification....
>
> On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Preston Whaley wrote:
>
> > >Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
> > >a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
> > >and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
> > >reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
> > >~Nancy
> > >
> > >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> > >Sure-JK
> >
> > The man on the moon is a man on the moon not the moon. Ancient Egyptian
> > god is the sun god -- "Ra." Louis XIV was Louis the "Sun King." The Sun is
> > imagined active, the moon passive. Old as patriarchy. The man on the moon
> > is where you'd expect him to be.
> >
> > Preston
> >
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:59:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
In a message dated 97-12-03 15:25:58 EST, Marie wrote:
<< (ie menses). >>
Native American women refer to menses as the moon time. A menstruating woman
is "on her moon," rather than all those quaint little colloquialisms women of
less spiritual ancestry are taught to use.
The moon waxes and wanes, as well. The dreaded PMS can be seen as waxing, and
many cultures believe this is a time of great insight, when women are most
attuned to things unspoken and unseen (which might explain why it looks like
women have a lot on their minds right then).
On the other hand, luna (the moon) is the root of the word lunatic. Go
figure.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:05:13 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: CD ROM: voyager beat experience 96
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hello all:
after flipping through a lot of mail re: CD ROM experiences of the
beats, i finally dug out my copy and reinstalled it on my disk..
while i'm not particularly enraptured by the cliched art of the 'beat
pad' which is the portal into each section of the disk: (bookcase, movie
projector, artwork, etc), this time i was truely taken by the beauty of
the literary excerpts - the art design of a book with aged, weathered
looking pages, and the incredible scope of writers, which include
baraka, burroughs, corso, creely, dickinson, diPrima, emerson,
ferlinghetti, ginsberg, hunke, kerouac, mcClure, melville, miller,
o'hara, rimbaud, snyder, thoreau, twain, watts, WCW, symbolist poets,
romantic poets, and the lost generation, reminds me so much of rinaldo's
inclusionary vs exclusionary lineup of beats. transcendentalists,
symbolists, imagists, american to the core twain, the black mountain
school and the west coast poets, the roots of the lost generation - and
that is only the bookcase. wowed me again.
did i just beam down from pluto? am i coming out of left field? did i do
something to my brain, and merely need time to come down? anyway, in
response to questions concerning CD Rom experiences of the beats, i must
heartily endorse the voyager co.'s beat experience. it was great to
read a sizeable exerpt from hunke's 'guilty of everything' and i was
heartened by the transcendentalists strong showing as well.
ok, now to beam back up to the crescent moon seen through the window.
and maybe a movie snippet or two.
mc
a bit whacked in the head today, but happily......
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:30:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In a message dated 97-12-02 23:19:47 EST, you write:
<< Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern. May I recommend the
mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and Sam Adams?
>>
what did dylan thomas die of?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:34:41 -0500
Reply-To: bonckdd@jmu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bonck, David D" <bonckdd@JMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Something to say etc....
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971203160844.008fd100@pophost.aber.ac.uk>
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I think you are totally right. Yeah I was all sorts of
drunk when I first got on this list and just let a whole
lot of garbage off my chest. It is sad though just to see
how a computer screen can manipulate a human being's life
so much. You know, it's not like being an alcoholic or
playing checkers all day or reading literature or playing
the guitar. It's staring at a screen. Computers take so
much of the personal aspect out of life. At least WRITING a
letter shows handwriting, and talking on the phone
indicates vioce expressions. You know? It's so wierd to
think that you will probably never see or hear from anyone
on this list, and that's just sad. But it is good that we
can all talk and chat about beautiful writers like
Burroughs Kerouac and Ginsberg ect. I really like that
excerpt from "The Job." I have been wanting to read that
due to my current lust for WSB's works. My library here is
pitiful when it comes to these guys. It has "On the Road"
"Junky" and a couple books of poems by Ginsberg. Pretty bad
huh? I was able to find lots more at the local library in
my hometown. I'm sure the CD Rom things are cool but I
don't even have a computer of my own so I guess they would
be out of the question. But there is a lot of bullshit
going around about the "beats." Kids hear about "On the
Road" in a B-Boys song and think it's cool that Kerouac
traveled across America. But what's even worse is kids
worshipping Burroughs like in "High Times" and such because
they hear that he did lots of drugs. That's just a disgrace
to a genius writer. Peace. ---david
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:08:44 +0000 ALAN PETER MADDRELL
<apm5@ABER.AC.UK> wrote:
> >You can sit at a stupid coffee house and say,
> >"yea, the beats were cool and I really liked their
> >message." Fuck that. I am already talking shit because the
> >"beats" (at least when they were for real. I'm not talking
> >about Burroughs wierd new shit on CD or Cassidy riding
> >around in a colorful bus). But fuck it.
> >Bonck, David D
> >bonckdd@jmu.edu
>
> Seems to me this thought encapsulates a lot of the talk that has been
> floating around this list for a while. 'S true, I am certainly with David
> on some points here. As I understand it, the beat spirit has nothing to do
> with the time in which it most notably occurred (namely '40s-'60s, very
> broadly). Critic might say that the movement sprang from bomb horror,
> postwar angst and so on, but these are merely the symptoms. I wouldn't find
> it surprising if a near exact parallel movement arrived on my doorstep
> tomorrow. Same horrors, my dears, just the words change and the means
> through which they may be expressed.
>
> Jesus, three o'clock in the PM and drunk already. Not good...
>
> So, my tuppence's worth says it doesn't matter through which medium the
> message is to be obtained. CD-ROMs are *just as much* an avoidance of True
> Living as books are. Literature, by (tentative) definition, is an escape
> from the ghastly banality of the process of living as is any other form of
> art. Otherwise, why bother? It's a common misconception to think that books
> are somehow superior as art works to theatre, a painting, sculpture, film
> or a really decent CD-ROM. Each has their merits, and I have studied them all.
>
> The dangers of attaching the beat generation to a specific period in time
> have been expressed pretty well in "Beatnik" by Toby Litt, a new novel in
> which a group of teenagers become obsessed with the idea of 1966, and cut
> out from their lives anything that arrived on the scene after that. At
> times I am reminded of these tragic chars. by some of the antics of those
> who would eulogise and chemically preserve an unrealistic ideal of life at
> that time. My advice? Don't wear black, don't snap your fingers, and don't
> call anything or anyone "hep" or "cat". A tenner says no real beat ever did
> after it became "cool" to do so.
>
> Consequently, the B-Boys nicely capture the beat spirit (as incidentally do
> Genet, arguably Keats etc.), whilst not being tied to the time. To my mind
> the greatest of the writers of that time, Burroughs, said this in The Job:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To travel in space you must learn to leave the old verbal garbage behind:
> food talk, priest talk, mother talk, family talk, love talk, party talk,
> country talk. You must learn to exist with no religion, no country, no
> allies. You must learn to see what is in front of you with no
> preconceptions.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I think it's reasonable to include time talk in that as a footnote.
>
> Well, that's me de-lurkified for a spell, just seemed worthwhile to point
> out that in his first post David observed something quite central to the
> nature of the study of beat literature.
>
> ttfn,
>
> Alan Maddrell
--
Bonck, David D
bonckdd@jmu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:38:43 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: <971203163009_-321507873@mrin58.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> In a message dated 97-12-02 23:19:47 EST, you write:
> << Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern. May I recommend the
> mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and Sam Adams?>>
> what did dylan thomas die of?
gee - i thought everyone knew...
he died of mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and sam adams.
yrs
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:58:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In a message dated 97-12-03 16:56:40 EST, you write:
<< gee - i thought everyone knew...
he died of mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and sam adams >>
how did the combination kill him
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:25:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: <971203163009_-321507873@mrin58.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
He died of alchol poisoning...
'On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, First_Name Last_Name wrote:
> In a message dated 97-12-02 23:19:47 EST, you write:
>
> << Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern. May I recommend the
> mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and Sam Adams?
> >>
>
>
> what did dylan thomas die of?
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:45:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't think that Dylan Thomas died at the Whitehorse - although what he
drank at the Whitehorse was a direct contributor! It seems now to be
accepted that he died as a result of mixing drinking with Diabetes - a
disease he denied having.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:35:42 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: <971203165810_-1506653143@mrin54.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
on bars and taverns (or: lit & cheese)
kerouac
poe
thomas
drink in one hand and life in the other
king of the beats and king of the bar
poe dead in a gutter from
beer & booze
here i am sitting in another pub
i dont like beer
but im sure
that
the grease from these
grilled cheese
mozza sticks
onion rings
buffalo wings
burgers
nachos
bar food
will do the same task
and probably
quicker
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:59:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:25 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Nancy Brodsky wrote:
>He died of alchol poisoning...
I think there is a new bio out that proposes he
died of a diabetic coma. I believe it was written
by an M.D.?
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:03:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
> classical greek mythology: apollo the sun god./artemis moon goddess of the
hunt.
>
> and to be a bit frankly speaking here: men do not have 'monthly"
> (ie menses).
> makes sense to me.
> mc
>
Yes indeed it does. Ever had a baby at full moon, you can't get a birthing
room.
Been there and done that! Er eh as a father of course.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:36:05 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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he dropped dead right off his stool in the tavern. the official cause of
death may have been heart failure, but basically, alcoholism.
mc
First_Name Last_Name wrote:
> In a message dated 97-12-02 23:19:47 EST, you write:
>
> << Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern. May I recommend the
> mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and Sam Adams?
> >>
>
> what did dylan thomas die of?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:37:18 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: first name last name
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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is there a reason for such anonymity? or is that your birth name?
curious in vermont
mc
First_Name Last_Name wrote:
> In a message dated 97-12-02 23:19:47 EST, you write:
>
> << Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern. May I recommend the
> mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and Sam Adams?
> >>
>
> what did dylan thomas die of?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:48:23 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: something to say, lots to do
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
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> dear david:
> in a way, i feel sorry for you. i write lots of real letters to real
> friends who
> i've met in real life on this list and others. handwriting is no
> indication of a
> real letter any more than typing is. i feel sorry for you if you think
> all life
> consists of isolated people typing garbage to other anonymous isolated
> people. on
> one list i belong to, we all decided to meet in louisville KY and have
> a poetry
> reading. i've been invited to, and gone to several other poetry
> readings where real
> live people gathered together to share life as well as literacy. i've
> found
> friendships here that have literally changed my life. this month i'm
> off to california to meet up with west coast beat-l folks, to read
> some poetry and live a lot as well. the list provides back what
> you put into it, much like a garden. and much like a garden, there are
> many weeds
> as well. but even weeds have a complex organic life of their own. give
> it some
> time. don't sweat the small stuff. there are many wonderful people
> here. and we are
> not all addicted to our computers. i am addicted to life, and sharing
> life with
> others through the letters i write both on and off list.
> welcome
> give it a chance.
> mc
>
> Bonck, David D wrote:
>
> > I think you are totally right. Yeah I was all sorts of
> > drunk when I first got on this list and just let a whole
> > lot of garbage off my chest. It is sad though just to see
> > how a computer screen can manipulate a human being's life
> > so much. You know, it's not like being an alcoholic or
> > playing checkers all day or reading literature or playing
> > the guitar. It's staring at a screen. Computers take so
> > much of the personal aspect out of life. At least WRITING a
> > letter shows handwriting, and talking on the phone
> > indicates vioce expressions. You know? It's so wierd to
> > think that you will probably never see or hear from anyone
> > on this list, and that's just sad. But it is good that we
> > can all talk and chat about beautiful writers like
> > Burroughs Kerouac and Ginsberg ect. I really like that
> > excerpt from "The Job." I have been wanting to read that
> > due to my current lust for WSB's works. My library here is
> > pitiful when it comes to these guys. It has "On the Road"
> > "Junky" and a couple books of poems by Ginsberg. Pretty bad
> > huh? I was able to find lots more at the local library in
> > my hometown. I'm sure the CD Rom things are cool but I
> > don't even have a computer of my own so I guess they would
> > be out of the question. But there is a lot of bullshit
> > going around about the "beats." Kids hear about "On the
> > Road" in a B-Boys song and think it's cool that Kerouac
> > traveled across America. But what's even worse is kids
> > worshipping Burroughs like in "High Times" and such because
> > they hear that he did lots of drugs. That's just a disgrace
> > to a genius writer. Peace. ---david
> > On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:08:44 +0000 ALAN PETER MADDRELL
> > <apm5@ABER.AC.UK> wrote:
> >
> > > >You can sit at a stupid coffee house and say,
> > > >"yea, the beats were cool and I really liked their
> > > >message." Fuck that. I am already talking shit because the
> > > >"beats" (at least when they were for real. I'm not talking
> > > >about Burroughs wierd new shit on CD or Cassidy riding
> > > >around in a colorful bus). But fuck it.
> > > >Bonck, David D
> > > >bonckdd@jmu.edu
> > >
> > > Seems to me this thought encapsulates a lot of the talk that has
> been
> > > floating around this list for a while. 'S true, I am certainly
> with David
> > > on some points here. As I understand it, the beat spirit has
> nothing to do
> > > with the time in which it most notably occurred (namely '40s-'60s,
> very
> > > broadly). Critic might say that the movement sprang from bomb
> horror,
> > > postwar angst and so on, but these are merely the symptoms. I
> wouldn't find
> > > it surprising if a near exact parallel movement arrived on my
> doorstep
> > > tomorrow. Same horrors, my dears, just the words change and the
> means
> > > through which they may be expressed.
> > >
> > > Jesus, three o'clock in the PM and drunk already. Not good...
> > >
> > > So, my tuppence's worth says it doesn't matter through which
> medium the
> > > message is to be obtained. CD-ROMs are *just as much* an avoidance
> of True
> > > Living as books are. Literature, by (tentative) definition, is an
> escape
> > > from the ghastly banality of the process of living as is any other
> form of
> > > art. Otherwise, why bother? It's a common misconception to think
> that books
> > > are somehow superior as art works to theatre, a painting,
> sculpture, film
> > > or a really decent CD-ROM. Each has their merits, and I have
> studied them all.
> > >
> > > The dangers of attaching the beat generation to a specific period
> in time
> > > have been expressed pretty well in "Beatnik" by Toby Litt, a new
> novel in
> > > which a group of teenagers become obsessed with the idea of 1966,
> and cut
> > > out from their lives anything that arrived on the scene after
> that. At
> > > times I am reminded of these tragic chars. by some of the antics
> of those
> > > who would eulogise and chemically preserve an unrealistic ideal of
> life at
> > > that time. My advice? Don't wear black, don't snap your fingers,
> and don't
> > > call anything or anyone "hep" or "cat". A tenner says no real beat
> ever did
> > > after it became "cool" to do so.
> > >
> > > Consequently, the B-Boys nicely capture the beat spirit (as
> incidentally do
> > > Genet, arguably Keats etc.), whilst not being tied to the time. To
> my mind
> > > the greatest of the writers of that time, Burroughs, said this in
> The Job:
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > To travel in space you must learn to leave the old verbal garbage
> behind:
> > > food talk, priest talk, mother talk, family talk, love talk, party
> talk,
> > > country talk. You must learn to exist with no religion, no
> country, no
> > > allies. You must learn to see what is in front of you with no
> > > preconceptions.
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > >
> > > I think it's reasonable to include time talk in that as a
> footnote.
> > >
> > > Well, that's me de-lurkified for a spell, just seemed worthwhile
> to point
> > > out that in his first post David observed something quite central
> to the
> > > nature of the study of beat literature.
> > >
> > > ttfn,
> > >
> > > Alan Maddrell
> >
> > --
> > Bonck, David D
> > bonckdd@jmu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:31:31 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> "remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
> ******************************************************************
Derek--where did you find this quote?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:31:40 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: home from Denver
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
happy to report i survived thanksgiving.
Neal's spirit was everywhere. I spent a lot of time driving around
areas on the Neal's Denver page at literary kicks and the changes in the
city over the years didn't come close to taking the spirit from the
streets. it was beautiful and fun.
until i caught a bad cold!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:28:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>and to be a bit frankly speaking here: men do not have 'monthly"
>(ie menses).
>makes sense to me.
>mc
interestingly enough, men have been shown to epxerience daily
fluctuations in their equivalents of the female menstrual hormones,
much like the sun's daily cycle... a neat little coincidence.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:38:54 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Howard Park <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Subject: A few collectible books in the "Garage Sale" too
Thanks to all that have requested my book list. I hope to send it out this
weekend.
Originally I said I would have only reader copies. I have since come accross
a few duplicate books which I would classify as collectable, so I'd recommend
that the collectors request a copy of my list as well as those only
interested in reader copies.
Please e-mail list requests to Hpark4@aol.com NOT to the listserve.
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:50:15 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Miller <richard@EMF.NET>
Subject: Kerouac and The Fifties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The History Channel is doing a 7 hr special on The Fifties and on Friday
night (12/5) they examine the impact of Jack Kerouac and Elvis Presley.So
far its been pretty well done.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:14:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
Comments: To: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997120317451564@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:
> I don't think that Dylan Thomas died at the Whitehorse - although what he
> drank at the Whitehorse was a direct contributor! It seems now to be
> accepted that he died as a result of mixing drinking with Diabetes - a
> disease he denied having.
At the Chelsea hotel on 23rd, there is a plaque dedicated to Dylan Thomas
which says he died there.
I wonder who drank more, Kerouac or Thomas?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:54:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and The Fifties
In-Reply-To: <v01530500b0ab497dbb39@[205.149.2.213]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
It's based on David Halberstam's book _The Fifties_ which is by far the
best history book on a specific era I've ever read. We use it as the
background text for our Beat class here. Its the way a history book
should be written. The series has been great and I've been taping it as
the $100 they're charging to buy it is outrageous for a six tape set.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:00:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Philibin <deadbeat@BUFFNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
> a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the
moon)
> and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
> reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
Really?!?! I have always heard the moon refered to as female. It's the
whole Luna thing. And cyclic like a Womans Cycle... Never really heard
anything about the Sun except for in Greek Lit.
-Bill
[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
|"When no one had answers they created God. Now we have most of them,
| and one day we will have all of them, rendering God useless."
|
| -- Unknown
[--- ICQ UIN = 188335 --|-- PrettyGoodPrivacy v2.6.2 Key By Request --]
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 22:40:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Dennis Cardwell <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
In a message dated 97-12-03 09:04:45 EST, Nancy wrote:
<< Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon) >>
Ah, but the moon is a harsh mistress.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:02:16 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: freewheeling chaos
In-Reply-To: <347CD579.8CF@sunflower.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there Patricia, on 27-Nov-97 you wrote...
>the only thing i would like to add is i think everyone
>should only post interesting things, nothing boring.
/golgotha gulp/
my saviour 'tis of thee
they sing they say
you died with pride at thirtythree
for others' sins
(enthroned madonna grins
and giggles
what if she'd had twins?)
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:55:05 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971126225017.00b5f614@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there Rinaldo, on 27-Nov-97 you wrote...
> i think back over the past, and remember the on the road as
> a story of a salesman (death of a salesman). the american way
> of life, religious of course, but keen competition and no
> pity for the loser. (Sur...
hmm - i remember buying 'naked lunch' from a bookstall in via veneto, and
reading it in the borghese gardens - it's easy to forget the doors those
guys opened up in peoples lives
>p.s. techno pun nostalgia, the Amiga 1000 was my first serious
> puter. i brought it on autumn 1986. now it's gone but a tear
> was/is on my eyes...
definitely the platform ol jack would have chosen haha
>>--
>>bye for now,
>>#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
>>(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
>>#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
>>
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:45:06 +1000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: the last time....
In-Reply-To: <348526C6.5BE4@together.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
G'day all,
has anyone else had the sad misfortune of seeing a film called "The last
time i committed suicide" , which i sat through last night hissing through
clamped teeth? I've often wondered when or whether the right kind of movie
treatment of some beat writers will eventuate - this was a really
mindfuckingly stupid attempt, dealing as it did with a visual rendition of
one of neal cassady's letters to jack - little bits of dialogue here and
there offered promises almost immediately dashed against some
hollywood/madison avenue figment of 'the beat'
i dont want to say more at this stage other that the only authentic feel
for the time is the music (a la miles davis, or maybe himself - i couldnt
be bothered scanning the credits)
i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola has the rights to 'on the road' -
anyone know more?
--
bye for now,
#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:29:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Roy Murray Moore <unde0297@FRANK.MTSU.EDU>
Subject: Kerouac and the Fifties
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hundred bucks, huh? my copy of the book cost me fifteen dollars. also,
i've always been impressed by halberstam's choice of words and one rather
astute observation of his continues too come to min whenever i think of
the beats: "They saw themselves as poets in a land of philistines, men
seeking spiritual destinies rather than material ones."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:41:42 -0500
Reply-To: bonckdd@jmu.edu
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Bonck, David D" <bonckdd@JMU.EDU>
Subject: ginsberg film
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
I just rented a good 30 min video from my library today-an
interview with Allen Ginsberg called "When the Muse Calls
Answer It." I think it was probably made in the late 80s or
early 90s. Had him talking about his friends and everybody
we all know and love. He read excerpts from a couple poems
like "White Shroud" and "Kaddish." He mentioned Kerouac's
great influence on him to write spontaneously. He even
went as far to say that his own writing was and extension
of Kerouac's. Showed his NYC apartment and the streets he
has walked for years. I had never seen him on video before
(except for Bob Dylan's "Don't Look Back") or heard his
voice. The video showed him up close and personal and he
seemed like a real down to earth guy. Also included a
couple rare shouts of the boys back in the day. You guys
should check it out! david.
--
Bonck, David D
bonckdd@jmu.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:27:09 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
ok. before i start, let me just say that i was on the list before, that
i have returned, that i missed it very much in the meantime and that it
brings much sense into my life.
i was curious; as a response to this:
Alex Howard wrote:
>
> Uhm, "dude", we're here to discuss the literature and the writers and
> other prevelant information. If the purpose of the list were to support
> and futher the beat lifestyle, it wouldn't exist and you wouldn't even be
> here.
>
i agree. it is true that life and literature are not really separate
entities for most of us. but: how would you evaluate your lives? do you
think that they could compare with that of the beats? not necessarily
meaning that they be as wild as theirs, but in way we interpret our
experiences in our heads. do you think that you are living outside
mainstream, do you feel that you have sold yourslef to the (material)
society etc? do you get a feeling that 'there has to be more than this'?
i am still too young and crazy to be having these thoughts (as a matter
of fact, reading beatlist e-mails keeps me from sleeping and i never
spend the days at home), but am just wondering if that time comes to all
of us or not.
i hope i'm not too confusing.
ksenija
ps. thanks for remembering gregory corso. whenever i'm down, i read
'marriage'. makes me happy; just as literature itself does. but you
already know that.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:22:05 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Crooked Road
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
What about we all collaborate on a book:
Being Beat For Dummies. It will complete
that fabulous set that began with DOS for
Dummies. It would be a major success with
all us fools pooling our efforts.
Mike Rice
At 11:50 PM 12/2/97 -0800, you wrote:
>The author is Tim Hunt. Good book if you like this sort of thing, ie
>literary analysis.
>
>The other one I am aware of is the Spontaneous Poetics of Jack kerouac by
>Regina Weirich (whose last name I believe I misspelled).
>
>
>
>>I recently picked up a book called "Kerouac's crooked road", (author?) and
>>its about Kerouac's writing process. I was suprised to find out that
>>Kerouac did several meticulous revisions of On The Road. Its a very
>>interesting book...
>>
>>
>>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>>Sure-JK
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:40:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:30 PM 12/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-02 23:19:47 EST, you write:
>
><< Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern. May I recommend the
> mozzarella sticks, grilled cheese and Sam Adams?
> >>
>
>
>what did dylan thomas die of?
>
>
I read a bio. He died in the White Horse. He was a
notorious drunk and probably had liver problems and
their complications.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:41:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and The Fifties
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:50 PM 12/3/97 -0800, you wrote:
>The History Channel is doing a 7 hr special on The Fifties and on Friday
>night (12/5) they examine the impact of Jack Kerouac and Elvis Presley.So
>far its been pretty well done.
>
>
I just finished the one on Grace Metalious on tape. This series is
wonderful. There are two episodes Friday night, the last two. The
series is seven episodes, but because the first one was 2 hours, the
whole thing is eight hours.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:41:08 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:14 PM 12/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:
>
>> I don't think that Dylan Thomas died at the Whitehorse - although what he
>> drank at the Whitehorse was a direct contributor! It seems now to be
>> accepted that he died as a result of mixing drinking with Diabetes - a
>> disease he denied having.
>
>At the Chelsea hotel on 23rd, there is a plaque dedicated to Dylan Thomas
>which says he died there.
>
>I wonder who drank more, Kerouac or Thomas?
>
>
Listen, regardless of what it was or where it was, "he did not
go gently into that good night!"
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:54:27 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Judith Campbell <judith@BOONDOCK.COM>
Subject: Re: Crooked Road
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19971204011542.25a7ad7c@mail.wi.centuryinter.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:22 AM 12/4/97 -0600, you wrote:
>What about we all collaborate on a book:
>Being Beat For Dummies. It will complete
>that fabulous set that began with DOS for
>Dummies. It would be a major success with
>all us fools pooling our efforts.
>
>Mike Rice
I'll be happy to work on this with you as soon as I finish my current
project: "Suicide for Dummies"
Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:02:35 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and The Fifties
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tonight's episode was about the changing sexual and social mores of the
decade, and I was pleasantly surprised to hear Herbert Huncke's name re:
his (as well as Kerouac's, Ginsberg's, & Burroughs') involvement in the
Kinsey Report. They also had interviews with Ginsberg and (another happy
surprise) Joyce Johnson. This documentary seems to leave no stone
unturned...I have to read the book now!
Adrien
Richard Miller wrote:
>
> The History Channel is doing a 7 hr special on The Fifties and on Friday
> night (12/5) they examine the impact of Jack Kerouac and Elvis Presley.So
> far its been pretty well done.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:59:21 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
all dylan said, 'to live outside the law you must be honest': as a person who
has no car and only enough possessions to fit into one room, and a penchant
for bussing it and training it to meet with poets and other mad ones, i
hesistate still to call myself beat, but i sure ain't mainstream, clearly. i
don't even work.
mc
Ksenija Simic wrote:
> ok. before i start, let me just say that i was on the list before, that
> i have returned, that i missed it very much in the meantime and that it
> brings much sense into my life.
>
> i was curious; as a response to this:
>
> Alex Howard wrote:
> >
> > Uhm, "dude", we're here to discuss the literature and the writers and
> > other prevelant information. If the purpose of the list were to support
> > and futher the beat lifestyle, it wouldn't exist and you wouldn't even be
> > here.
> >
>
> i agree. it is true that life and literature are not really separate
> entities for most of us. but: how would you evaluate your lives? do you
> think that they could compare with that of the beats? not necessarily
> meaning that they be as wild as theirs, but in way we interpret our
> experiences in our heads. do you think that you are living outside
> mainstream, do you feel that you have sold yourslef to the (material)
> society etc? do you get a feeling that 'there has to be more than this'?
> i am still too young and crazy to be having these thoughts (as a matter
> of fact, reading beatlist e-mails keeps me from sleeping and i never
> spend the days at home), but am just wondering if that time comes to all
> of us or not.
>
> i hope i'm not too confusing.
>
> ksenija
>
> ps. thanks for remembering gregory corso. whenever i'm down, i read
> 'marriage'. makes me happy; just as literature itself does. but you
> already know that.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:02:01 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Crooked Road
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
i can't help it, this cracked me up. i have a few chapters you may want
to include.
alive and glad to be here now.
mc
Judith Campbell wrote:
> I'll be happy to work on this with you as soon as I finish my current
> project: "Suicide for Dummies"
>
> Judith
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:02:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time....
In a message dated 97-12-04 02:16:31 EST, John wrote:
<< has anyone else had the sad misfortune of seeing a film called "The last
time i committed suicide" >>
Ugh... a friend loaned me the movie after she had rented it and before she
had to take it back to the video store. I don't know whether it was the
offensive portrayal of Neal, or the lame portrayal of Allen, or the stupid
jerky camera affectations, or the contrived hipness of the soundtrack, but it
was, without exception, the most stupefyingly dumb <fill in the blank> I had
ever rewound after 17 minutes. I simply could not watch it. And I can't think
of another movie I've ever felt that way about.
diane
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:42:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997120317451564@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Dylan Thomas died at the White Horse Tavern...
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Antoine Maloney wrote:
> I don't think that Dylan Thomas died at the Whitehorse - although what he
> drank at the Whitehorse was a direct contributor! It seems now to be
> accepted that he died as a result of mixing drinking with Diabetes - a
> disease he denied having.
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
> cease to be amused."
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:43:50 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: <34858963.33E6@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
If Im not mistaken, I think this quote comes from his rules of spontaneous
prose or something like that....am I right?
~Nancy
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Diane Carter wrote:
> > Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
> > "remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
> > ******************************************************************
>
> Derek--where did you find this quote?
> DC
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:46:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: the last time....
In-Reply-To: <yam7277.339.4820736@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
If you look at Levi Asher's site, literary kicks, he has a thing about a
movie version of On The Road...I forgot the address to the page,
sorry..can anyone help me out?
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, John Pullicino wrote:
> G'day all,
>
> has anyone else had the sad misfortune of seeing a film called "The last
> time i committed suicide" , which i sat through last night hissing through
> clamped teeth? I've often wondered when or whether the right kind of movie
> treatment of some beat writers will eventuate - this was a really
> mindfuckingly stupid attempt, dealing as it did with a visual rendition of
> one of neal cassady's letters to jack - little bits of dialogue here and
> there offered promises almost immediately dashed against some
> hollywood/madison avenue figment of 'the beat'
>
>
> i dont want to say more at this stage other that the only authentic feel
> for the time is the music (a la miles davis, or maybe himself - i couldnt
> be bothered scanning the credits)
>
> i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola has the rights to 'on the road' -
> anyone know more?
> --
> bye for now,
> #<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
> (|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
> #<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:47:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
In-Reply-To: <199712041301.IAA25521@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I have that on a bumper sticker...
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> all dylan said, 'to live outside the law you must be honest': as a person who
> has no car and only enough possessions to fit into one room, and a penchant
> for bussing it and training it to meet with poets and other mad ones, i
> hesistate still to call myself beat, but i sure ain't mainstream, clearly. i
> don't even work.
> mc
>
> Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
> > ok. before i start, let me just say that i was on the list before, that
> > i have returned, that i missed it very much in the meantime and that it
> > brings much sense into my life.
> >
> > i was curious; as a response to this:
> >
> > Alex Howard wrote:
> > >
> > > Uhm, "dude", we're here to discuss the literature and the writers and
> > > other prevelant information. If the purpose of the list were to support
> > > and futher the beat lifestyle, it wouldn't exist and you wouldn't even be
> > > here.
> > >
> >
> > i agree. it is true that life and literature are not really separate
> > entities for most of us. but: how would you evaluate your lives? do you
> > think that they could compare with that of the beats? not necessarily
> > meaning that they be as wild as theirs, but in way we interpret our
> > experiences in our heads. do you think that you are living outside
> > mainstream, do you feel that you have sold yourslef to the (material)
> > society etc? do you get a feeling that 'there has to be more than this'?
> > i am still too young and crazy to be having these thoughts (as a matter
> > of fact, reading beatlist e-mails keeps me from sleeping and i never
> > spend the days at home), but am just wondering if that time comes to all
> > of us or not.
> >
> > i hope i'm not too confusing.
> >
> > ksenija
> >
> > ps. thanks for remembering gregory corso. whenever i'm down, i read
> > 'marriage'. makes me happy; just as literature itself does. but you
> > already know that.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:50:36 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: SOTD
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I went to the Some of the Dharma Reading last night at St.Mark's Church
and it was awesome. I went by myself and wound up meeting this really cool
art teacher from Mass. and the performances were so cool. David Amram was
great at everything...he played the piano, flute, drums, whatever, and he
sang. It was my first time at the Poetry Project and it was just great! I
hope those of you who were there, enjoyed it!
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:55:48 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: Re: the last time....
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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The page is http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
I think that this is a pretty cool one, but also worthy is
http://www.geocities.com/~beatgeneration/cafe.html I had to enter this
address twice, it might kick you out. This one has a real hip sound bit of
Jack reading the end of OTR.
Cheers,
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy B Brodsky [SMTP:nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 1997 9:46 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the last time....
If you look at Levi Asher's site, literary kicks, he has a thing about a
movie version of On The Road...I forgot the address to the page,
sorry..can anyone help me out?
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, John Pullicino wrote:
> G'day all,
>
> has anyone else had the sad misfortune of seeing a film called "The last
> time i committed suicide" , which i sat through last night hissing
through
> clamped teeth? I've often wondered when or whether the right kind of
movie
> treatment of some beat writers will eventuate - this was a really
> mindfuckingly stupid attempt, dealing as it did with a visual rendition
of
> one of neal cassady's letters to jack - little bits of dialogue here and
> there offered promises almost immediately dashed against some
> hollywood/madison avenue figment of 'the beat'
>
>
> i dont want to say more at this stage other that the only authentic feel
> for the time is the music (a la miles davis, or maybe himself - i couldnt
> be bothered scanning the credits)
>
> i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola has the rights to 'on the road' -
> anyone know more?
> --
> bye for now,
> #<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
> (|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
> #<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:08:41 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:42:02 -0500 from
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Yea, he actually died in St. Vincent's hospital. But it makes such a better st
ory to say he died in the gutter on Hudson Street.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:14:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time....
In a message dated 97-12-04 09:32:18 EST, you write:
<< I had
ever rewound after 17 minutes >>
not that i was much of a fan of the movie myself, regardless i would have sat
through the whole thing so i could adequately mock it instead of generalizing
the entire movie, out of respect to the director and screenwriter who at
least tried...besides, i don't believe we can necessarily label
interpretations of one or two people from that time period unless we
ourselves spent significant time with them.......
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:37:57 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: Re: at the end of a gone year .......
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Maybe for those who are not legal, we could gather somewhere else. Maybe at the
St. Marks Poetry project on New Years day or something. I think it would be
great to meet people on the list. Keep the connections going in person and such.
Sean D. Young
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: at the end of a gone year .......
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 12/2/97 10:04 PM
Nancy wrote:
I'd love to go to McSorely's but unfortunately, not everyone on the list
is wholly legal....
On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Sean Young wrote:
> hey all,
>
>
> Here at the end of a year of so many gone. Allen gone, my father Don
> Young gone, Jeff Buckley gone, Burroughs gone, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan
> gone, Acker gone ......etc. I feel like I need to get my feet on the
> ground. so much spinning in loss.
>
> What's the next phase? When will there be a return of wonder (to quote
> Ferlinghetti)? Is it already here? Am I asleep in my walking already
> too far gone?
>
> I am heading to New York for five days around New Years. I've got my
> Bill Morgan book in hand and I am hoping to check out some of the
> haunts. I also hope to check out the St. Marks Poetry marthon reading
> on New Years Day. I might also visit Anthology Film Archives, hoping
> to find more info on Harry Smith.
>
> I was wondering if any of you NY area BEAT-L'ers might like to meet at
> McSorley's for a drink. Let's drink to the return of wonder.
>
> Peace be upon you all,
>
> Sean D. Young
>
> syoung@dsw.com
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:48:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane De Rooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time....
In a message dated 97-12-04 10:04:58 EST, you write:
<< >
> i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola has the rights to 'on the road' -
> anyone know more?
> --
>>
This will get you started:
<A HREF=" http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ ">Literary Kicks</A>
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/
<A HREF="http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html">The Beats In
Film</A>
http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/Films/BeatFilmList.html
<A HREF="http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html">Hollywood's Coming: On Th
e Road</A>
http://www.c3f.com/holywood/ontheroa.html
This project has been in the shadows for decades, and there is a lot of
information out there on the internet. We've also discussed it to death on
the list here, passionately and then annoyingly... you can get the letters on
this subject from the Beat-L archive. Maybe then we won't get sucked back
into discussing it endlessly...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:01:13 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
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I remember seeing a Joseph Campbell lecture on PBS where he said that
different cultures assign different genders to the sun and the moon.
He also said (and I paraphrase) that certain ancient beliefs had that
the sun was the source (female) and that the moon (male) came from and
returned to the sun. Hence the typical male feeling of being temporary
and struggling with identity. (Women, being the source, can just "be"
and men, feeling somewhat unimportant, have to "do", that is assert
some separate identity from the nature scripted role.) Note that those
are generalizations and there are always exceptions. Interesting to
ponder though.
He also suggested that the difference between these gender assignments
was a source of cultural misunderstandings. Mixed metaphors = mixed up
world.
:)
Sean D. Young
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 12/3/97 2:29 PM
classical greek mythology: apollo the sun god./artemis moon goddess of the hunt.
and to be a bit frankly speaking here: men do not have 'monthly"
(ie menses).
makes sense to me.
mc
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> Point well taken. Thanks for the clarification....
>
> On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Preston Whaley wrote:
>
> > >Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
> > >a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the moon)
> > >and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
> > >reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
> > >~Nancy
> > >
> > >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> > >Sure-JK
> >
> > The man on the moon is a man on the moon not the moon. Ancient Egyptian
> > god is the sun god -- "Ra." Louis XIV was Louis the "Sun King." The Sun is
> > imagined active, the moon passive. Old as patriarchy. The man on the moon
> > is where you'd expect him to be.
> >
> > Preston
> >
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:16:38 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ddrooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: the last time....
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-04 11:10:48 EST, you write:
<< regardless i would have sat
through the whole thing so i could adequately mock it >>
Life is too short and I'm not into self-abuse.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:25:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: the last time....
Comments: To: First_Name Last_Name <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <971204101455_-1875617360@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Okay, my two bits: When I watched it first time I thought it was great.
I went out and bought the soundtrack immediately. Second time I watched
it, a week later, it occurred to me that a lot of my reaction stemmed from
(a) obvious love of the subject matter and (b) the overall paucity of
*any* good movies dealing w/ the Beats, or even mediocre ones. Anyone
seen "Heartbeats"? Jesus H. Anyway, the soundtrack is great.
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
"Might as well be frank, monsieur. It would take a miracle to get you
out of Casablanca and the Germans have outlawed miracles."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:37:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Burroughs archives
In-Reply-To: <971202170533_2095857259@mrin53.mail.aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Diane De Rooy wrote:
> I don't have the details (who does? can you post them?) but there's an art
> exhibit featuring paintings by Burroughs and George Condo in New York right
> now, for those of you in that neck of the woods.
I don't have any details, but for anyone interested in the connection
between the two Burroughs wrote the intro to a Condo book called "Recent
Paintings" and Condo illustrated the original limited edition "Ghost of
Chance".
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:01:31 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Dylan Thomas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.971204113600.16750C-100000@picard.math.uwaterloo.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I know virtually zilch about Dylan Thomas--can anyone suggest a good book
and/or website? Plus, which of his poetry collections is best? Plus
anything anybody else has to add...
thanks
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
"Might as well be frank, monsieur. It would take a miracle to get you
out of Casablanca and the Germans have outlawed miracles."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:18:07 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Ginsberg Song/Poem
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I saw a few days ago the end of an interview with Allen Ginsberg, in
which he sang a song, accompanied by a strange instrument, like an
accordion, and it went something like this:
Father's death
...
Budha's death
...
Burroughs death
...
(note : this ... means that I don't remember the following verses...)
Does anyone know anything about this song/poem? If so, could you post
the poem here in the list?
thanks in advance...
daniel caridade
caridade@mail.telepac.pt
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:35:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg Song/Poem
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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caridade wrote:
>
> I saw a few days ago the end of an interview with Allen Ginsberg, in
> which he sang a song, accompanied by a strange instrument, like an
> accordion, and it went something like this:
>
> Father's death
> ...
> Budha's death
> ...
> Burroughs death
> ...
>
> (note : this ... means that I don't remember the following verses...)
> Does anyone know anything about this song/poem? If so, could you post
> the poem here in the list?
>
> thanks in advance...
> daniel caridade
> caridade@mail.telepac.pt
father death blues. it is on the Ashes and Blues CD in the Holy Soul
Jelly Roll boxset.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:35:54 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: louis ginsberg's "To a mother, buried"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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beat-l'ers
just thought that some of you migt like to read this poem by Luois
Ginsberg, from his _Morning in Spring and other poems_
"To a mother, buried"
Naomi, when the world swam away,
and the windows grew blind,
were you thinking about who searched endless corridors
of sanitariums, hoping to find
His old lost love?
now with eart above
do you know that your lawyer son, Eugene,
often will start,
at the grief, shaking,
the dungeon of his heart?
if only you knew how
your poet son, Allen,
Raves over the world,
Crazed for the love of you.
all typos my own. i can send more info abt the book, etc if anyone wants
it.
hozah
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:54:49 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg Song/Poem
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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RACE --- wrote:
> father death blues. it is on the Ashes and Blues CD in the Holy Soul
> Jelly Roll boxset.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
thanks a lot ...
Would you mind posting the poem, pleaaaasssseeee??!!
daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:21:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Wising up the Marks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Somebody posted an announcement of a forthcoming book about Burroughs
called Wising up the Marks. I was poking through the abstracts and journal
databases and came across this:
TITLE
Wising Up the Marks: Amodernism in the Work of William S.
Burroughs and Gilles Deleuze
AUTHOR(S)
Murphy,-Timothy-Sean
SOURCE (BIBLIOGRAPHIC CITATION)
Dissertation-Abstracts-International, Ann Arbor, MI (DAI). 1995
July, 56:1, 189A DAI No.: DA9517708. Degree granting
institution: U of California, Los Angeles, 1994.
PUBLICATION YEAR
1995
ACCESSION NUMBER
95056680 .
This has got to be the same thing, no? Is this Murphy just adapting this
dissertation to be published in a book? Anyone have any info?
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:33:36 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: there's a Ferlinghetti's JK unpublished poetry archive?
In-Reply-To: <199712040259.VAA27976@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Nell'introduzione a "Kerouac.Poesie beat" CARLO A. CORSI scrive:
"Kerouac poeta. Di lui, a parte una quantita' di
inediti che si troverebbero presso il noto
poeta Lawrence Ferlinghetti..."
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:40:16 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac and The Fifties
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:54:37 -0500 from
<kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:54:37 -0500 Alex Howard said:
>It's based on David Halberstam's book _The Fifties_ which is by far the
>best history book on a specific era I've ever read. We use it as the
>background text for our Beat class here. Its the way a history book
>should be written. The series has been great and I've been taping it as
>the $100 they're charging to buy it is outrageous for a six tape set.
>
>------------------
>Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
>kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
>http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
$100 for SIX tapes seems reasonable to me. That's only about $16 a tape.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:40:45 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
In-Reply-To: <199712040259.VAA27976@buffnet4.buffnet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Bill Philibin says:
>> Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
>> a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the
>moon)
>> and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
>> reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
>
>
> Really?!?! I have always heard the moon refered to as female.
It's the
>whole Luna thing. And cyclic like a Womans Cycle... Never really heard
>anything about the Sun except for in Greek Lit.
>
> -Bill
>
>[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
carissimi amici beat,
if this helps, i can tell you that in italian language
Moon=Luna is female "la luna",
Sun=Sole is male "il sole",
at the beginning of italian oriented language the saint
San Francesco D'Assisi in his prayers
called the moon "sorella luna" "sister moon"
and the sun "fratello sole" "brother sun".
maybe Jack Kerouac is remembering the ancient
prayers of the italian saint man?
un saluto a tutti,
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:13:23 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: allow me to...
In-Reply-To: <yam7277.286.4820736@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12.55 04/12/97 +1000, John Pullicino wrote:
>Hi there Rinaldo, on 27-Nov-97 you wrote...
>
>> i think back over the past, and remember the on the road as
>> a story of a salesman (death of a salesman). the american way
>> of life, religious of course, but keen competition and no
>> pity for the loser. (Sur...
>hmm - i remember buying 'naked lunch' from a bookstall in via veneto, and
>reading it in the borghese gardens - it's easy to forget the doors those
>guys opened up in peoples lives
>
heila' John! i bought "On the Road" in a venetian bookstand and
was november 1969, tha same year i was anarchist...
jack kerouac was a boy next door...
p.s. au pun punk are you knowing how many italians are in wangaratta?
un saluto da Rinaldo.
*
"I travel because I'm an Australian, and i've left Australia,
and i don't consider any other place my home but Australia.
I feel i'm Australian, i've an australian sense of humour"--Nick Cave
*
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:25:39 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
In-Reply-To: <199712041301.IAA25521@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
marie wrote:
>all dylan said, 'to live outside the law you must be honest': as a person who
>has no car and only enough possessions to fit into one room, and a penchant
>for bussing it and training it to meet with poets and other mad ones, i
>hesistate still to call myself beat, but i sure ain't mainstream, clearly. i
>don't even work.
>mc
>
>>Ksenija Simic wrote:
>> i hope i'm not too confusing.
>>
>>
combien de temps?
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:25:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Subject: Keratechnology
>>Timothy Franklin Thomas writes:
Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
It's impossible to guess how Jack et al may have made use of this new
technology. Don't be to sure of your position. With the sheer volume of
letters available I believe they would have made good use of email.<<
I'm not so sure. There is a reason why Jack used paper, and not the phone to
communicate. I think it's for documentation . E mail is erased after being
read. Phone call is forgotten. Letters are here almost forever.
I do think he would have liked writing on a computer without having to stop
to change sheets of paper, though he would have bitched about the lack of
noise and rhythm.
so it goes, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:09:13 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: race on burroughs
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
A while back RACE posted some questions about Burroughs that I offered
some sketchy thoughts about. I found the bibliographical info for the
journal discussed below.
[snip]
> 4) Stasis Horrors. This seems to be a biological argument by WSB for
> movement -- I've seen and heard of it many many times. Can folks help
> me out with specific references.
The "Stasis Horrors" would correspond most directly with Burroughs'
notions of homo sap being "the human artifact". He discusses this in The
Job, I believe, as well as The Adding Machine.
I read an article in a scholarly journal from England that claimed that
Burroughs' concept of getting into space was like the traditional concept
of the soul coming free of the body, so you may want to examine some of
the ontological precepts governing Burroughs' notions of escaping Time to
get into Space. Another thing that aligns Burroughs with some traditional
Christian notions of spirituality is his horror and revulsion of the body.
This is discussed in "The Postmodern Anus", from _At the Front_.
[snip]
The article is as follows:
TITLE
The Long Last Goodbye: Control and Resistance in the Work of
William Burroughs
AUTHOR(S)
Ayers,-David
SOURCE (BIBLIOGRAPHIC CITATION)
Journal-of-American-Studies, Cambridge, England (JAmS). 1993
Aug, 27:2, 223-36.
PUBLICATION YEAR
1993
ACCESSION NUMBER
93060184 .
[snip]
So anyone interested in it can find it from your local library or through
inter-library loan. The discussion of the soul/space issue is brief, but
illuminating, and the rest of the article is worth reading for a look at
Burroughs' modernist quest for absolute freedom.
Although the boundaries between categorizations like modern and postmodern
are highly artificial and much debated, it always amuses me to find
Burroughs situated by people when discussing his fight against control as
modern, his compostional techniques and treatment of sex as postmodern,
his cosmology as neo-romantic (in its relationship with Blake, see
Ginsberg for this). He really gets around.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:26:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: SOTD
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:50:36 -0500 from
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
I decided at the last minute that I'd go down to St. Marks for the
reading. It wasn't what I expected. I guess I thought it would be more
like the celebration of OTR, where people were essentially reading
passages from the work. The evening opened with introductory remarks by
editor David Stanford, who provided both historical background and
comments on editorial problems associated with publishing the SOD
manuscript. Ann Douglas provided additional background reading and
commented on Kerouac's buddhist beliefs, and read letters K had sent to
Allen Ginsberg at the time he was working on SOD. The rest of the
program was really a musical tribute with pieces by David Amram, Ed
Sanders, Hitchhiker, Lee Renaldo and others. Anne Waldman also
performed a couple of pieces. The program began about 8:30 and ended around
10:30. There was nearly a full house.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:49:38 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: elf abuse
Did somebody mention elf abuse? Tis the season....
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:56:45 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Father Death Blues
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
"Father Death Blues"
Hey Father Death I'm flying home
Hey poor man you're all alone
Hey old daddy, I know where I'm going
Father Death, Don't cry any more
Mama's there underneath the floor
Brother Death, please mind the store
Old Aunty Death Don't hide your bones
Old Uncle Death I hear your groans
O Sister Death how sweet your moans
O Children Deaths go breathe your breaths
Sobbing breasts'll case your Deaths
Pain is gone, tears take the rest
Genius Death your art is done
Lover Death your body's gone
Father Death I'm coming home
Guru Death your words are true
Teacher Death I do thank you
For inspiring me to sing this Blues
Buddha Death, I wake with you
Dharma Death, your mind is new
Sangha Death, we'll work it through
Suffering is what was born
Ignorance made me forlorn
Tearful truths I cannot scorn
Father Breath once more farewell
Birth you gave was no thing ill
My heart is still, as time will tell
Allen Ginsberg
A generous slice of Ginsbergian wisdom! One of his best, in my
opinion. Enjoy!
Maggie
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:09:37 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: Father Death Blues
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maggie Gerrity wrote:
>
> "Father Death Blues"
>
> Hey Father Death I'm flying home
> Hey poor man you're all alone
> Hey old daddy, I know where I'm going
>
> Father Death, Don't cry any more
> Mama's there underneath the floor
> Brother Death, please mind the store
>
> Old Aunty Death Don't hide your bones
> Old Uncle Death I hear your groans
> O Sister Death how sweet your moans
>
> O Children Deaths go breathe your breaths
> Sobbing breasts'll case your Deaths
> Pain is gone, tears take the rest
>
> Genius Death your art is done
> Lover Death your body's gone
> Father Death I'm coming home
>
> Guru Death your words are true
> Teacher Death I do thank you
> For inspiring me to sing this Blues
>
> Buddha Death, I wake with you
> Dharma Death, your mind is new
> Sangha Death, we'll work it through
>
> Suffering is what was born
> Ignorance made me forlorn
> Tearful truths I cannot scorn
>
> Father Breath once more farewell
> Birth you gave was no thing ill
> My heart is still, as time will tell
>
Thank you all for the help given...
This is truly a breath from the great ones...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:52:59 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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rinaldo, thank you for the italian roots that echo the greek
Rinaldo Rasa wrote: >
> dear rinaldo, thank you for the italian version of the greek. being greek, i
> grew up on my mema's lap reading of the gods and their powers and place in
> the heavens. your saint takes it one step further into the christian-judaeic
> world. it is always so sweet to hear your voice within your letters.
marie.
>
>
>
> carissimi amici beat,
>
> if this helps, i can tell you that in italian language
> Moon=Luna is female "la luna",
> Sun=Sole is male "il sole",
> at the beginning of italian oriented language the saint
> San Francesco D'Assisi in his prayers
> called the moon "sorella luna" "sister moon"
> and the sun "fratello sole" "brother sun".
>
> maybe Jack Kerouac is remembering the ancient
> prayers of the italian saint man?
>
> un saluto a tutti,
> Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:26:06 -0800
Reply-To: balkose@egenet.com.tr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Murat Balkose <balkose@EGENET.COM.TR>
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> Murat wrote:
> >Hello,
> [..]
> >At 1970, Jim Morrison meets beat poet Michael McClure. McClure
> >tries to persuade Jim to print his poem book -Gods - New Creatures-.Does
> >any one know more about this story..
>
> Jim Morrison Interview by Jerry Hopkins - Rolling Stone 26th jul 1969.?
> []yes
> []no
[+] i dont know.
> > Also what is relation between Jim
> >and the beats..
>
> 1967 Summer of Love?
> []yes
> []no
[+] i dont know.
> saluti a tutti da rinaldo
> today it's a foggy, rainy venice, italy.
> *Hola estimado amigo daniel! have an happy week.*
Hello Rinaldo and beat-l'ers,
Thanks to the people who wrote about Jim Morrison and the beats. (esp.
William Kelly Norton Jr ). But I think Rinaldo know more , i answered
his small test . I wonder what did Jim Morrison said during that
interview about the beats.. And in the year 1967 Summer of love . Hope
you tell more.
Yrs,
Murat.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:26:40 -0800
Reply-To: balkose@egenet.com.tr
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Murat Balkose <balkose@EGENET.COM.TR>
Subject: Re: beat influence
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Maggie Gerrity wrote:
>
> All this talk about Bob Dylan and Jim Morrison has gotten me
> thinking about what other musicians were/are heavily influenced by the
> Beats. I see a lot of Beat influence in Patti Smith's work, as well as
> Lou Reed's and U2's. Can anyone think of any others? I'll be
> interested to hear the replies!
> Maggie
As far as i know punk/rap/rock band RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE got some
influence from the beats: The Solist reads Allen Ginsberg poem America
before each concert and in lyrics of song "Take The Power Back" it says
">its the beats and lyrics they fear." But i am not very sure if they
are telling the same beats...
Take The Power Back
In the right light, study becomes insight
But the system that dissed us
Teaches us to read and write
So-called facts are fraud
They want us to allege and pledge
And bow down to their god
Lost the culture, the culture lost
Spun our minds and through time
Ignorance has taken over
We gotta take the power back
Bam, here's the plan
Mother fuck uncle Sam
Step back, I know who I am
Raise up your ear, I'll drop the style and clear
>It's the beats and lyrics they fear
The rage is relentless
We need a movement with a quickness
You are the witness of change
And to counteract
We gotta take the power back
The present curriculums
I put my fist in em
Eurocentric every last one of 'em
See right through the red, white and
Blue disguise
With lecture, I puncture the
Structure of lies
Installed in our minds and attempting
To hold us back
We've got to take it back 'cause holes in our spirit are causin' tears
and
fears
One-sided stories for years and years and years
I'm inferior? Who's inferior?
Yea, we need to check the interior
Of the system who cares about only one culture
And that is why
We gotta take the power back
The teacher stands in front of the class
But the lesson plan he can't recall
The student's eyes don't perceive the lies
Bouncing off every fucking wall
His composure is well kept
I guess he fears playing the fool
The complacent students sit and listen to the
Bullshit that he learned in school
Europe ain't my rope to swing on
Can't learn a thing from it
Yet we hang from it
Gotta get it, gotta get it together then
Like the mother fuckin' weathermen
To expose and close the doors on those who try
To strangle and mangle the truth 'cause the circle of hatred continues
unless we react
We gotta take the power back
(From the album Rage Against the Machine.)
Yrs,
Murat.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:10:24 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Amy Dawn Vokac <vokac@STUDENTS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971204110040.9139A-100000@comp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:
> I know virtually zilch about Dylan Thomas--can anyone suggest a good book
> and/or website? Plus, which of his poetry collections is best? Plus
> anything anybody else has to add...
>
> thanks
>
> Don Lee
> Fayetteville, Ark.
>
> "Might as well be frank, monsieur. It would take a miracle to get you
> out of Casablanca and the Germans have outlawed miracles."
>
In high school my theatre department did Under Milkwood. His language
is beautiful in it.
Amy Vokac
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:01:15 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
Reply to message from rinaldo@GPNET.IT of Thu, 04 Dec
>
>Bill Philibin says:
>>> Has anyone noticed that in, Desolation Angels, Jack refers to the moon as
>>> a she and the sun as a he? Usually, the moon is male (the man in the
>>moon)
>>> and the sun is female(giver of light, life, etc). Do you think there's a
>>> reason for Jack's reversal of genders?
>>
>>
>> Really?!?! I have always heard the moon refered to as female.
>It's the
>>whole Luna thing. And cyclic like a Womans Cycle... Never really heard
>>anything about the Sun except for in Greek Lit.
>>
>> -Bill
>>
>>[ email: deadbeat@buffnet.net | web: http://www.buffnet.net/~deadbeat ]
>
>carissimi amici beat,
>
>if this helps, i can tell you that in italian language
>Moon=Luna is female "la luna",
>Sun=Sole is male "il sole",
>at the beginning of italian oriented language the saint
>San Francesco D'Assisi in his prayers
>called the moon "sorella luna" "sister moon"
>and the sun "fratello sole" "brother sun".
>
>maybe Jack Kerouac is remembering the ancient
>prayers of the italian saint man?
>
>un saluto a tutti,
>Rinaldo.
same in Spanish, la luna and el sol
Diane.
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:14:51 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: GRAUERHOLZ
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Anybody got his email address? -Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:30:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Keratechnology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Attila Gyenis wrote:
>
> >>Timothy Franklin Thomas writes:
> Subject: Re: Beat Generation multi-media???
>
> It's impossible to guess how Jack et al may have made use of this new
> technology. Don't be to sure of your position. With the sheer volume of
> letters available I believe they would have made good use of email.<<
>
> I'm not so sure. There is a reason why Jack used paper, and not the phone to
> communicate. I think it's for documentation . E mail is erased after being
> read. Phone call is forgotten. Letters are here almost forever.
>
> I do think he would have liked writing on a computer without having to stop
> to change sheets of paper, though he would have bitched about the lack of
> noise and rhythm.
>
> so it goes, Attila
other than the notion of "noise" i don't understand this at all.
e-mails can be saved easily and many listserves are archived for
posterity. as for rhythm it seems that one finds a beat at a keyboard
as easily as at an underwood. bipbangbloopblat my fingers strike keys
as i listen to Jack on the CD player (definitely not noise).
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
therefore in conclusion ladies and gentlemen i decidate this poem
...........
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:37:47 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: canuck mail strike
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
beat-Lers
i just though that everyone should know that the canadian mai strike is
over and the mail should start moving soon. HORAY!
if any of you had made arrangements with me to pick up some of my prints,
etc - your mail should be moving and let me know if you have any questions
of concerns.
yrs
derek beaulieu
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:46:02 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ryan White <whitery@UCS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat influence
In-Reply-To: <3487BAB5.7C58@egenet.com.tr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
> As far as i know punk/rap/rock band RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE got some
> influence from the beats: The Solist reads Allen Ginsberg poem America
> before each concert and in lyrics of song "Take The Power Back" it says
> ">its the beats and lyrics they fear." But i am not very sure if they
> are telling the same beats.
I've listened to quite bit of Rage, and I don't believe the "beats"
they're talking about are anything more than musical. I could be wrong,
these guys are pretty well read and very political. They did do a
rendition of Ginsberg's "Hadda Been Playing On The Jukebox."
Buh-Bye!
Ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:51:42 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ryan White <whitery@UCS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: the last time....
In-Reply-To: <971204101455_-1875617360@mrin51.mail.aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, First_Name Last_Name wrote:
> In a message dated 97-12-04 09:32:18 EST, you write:
>
> << I had
> ever rewound after 17 minutes >>
>
I have to admit, I enjoyed the film. I actually think that the camera
work helped enforce the image of Neal as a nonstop mover talker and
thinker, and all this set to the jazzy bebop beats. Sorry, I thought it
was great!
Buh-Bye!
Ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:53:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Chelsea Hotel
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Is that the same hotel that Dylan once lived in? If so, does it change
the meaning (to me) of this line from Sara?
Stayin' up for days in the Chelsea Hotel,
Writin' "Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" for you.
Nah, not really, but it would be interesting to know what sort of
literary types have lived at the Chelsea. Didn't Joni Mitchell do a
song about it too?
Al, can you enlighten us on the Chelsea and its occupants?
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:51:20 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Is that the same hotel that Dylan once lived in? If so, does it change
> the meaning (to me) of this line from Sara?
>
> Stayin' up for days in the Chelsea Hotel,
> Writin' "Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" for you.
>
> Nah, not really, but it would be interesting to know what sort of
> literary types have lived at the Chelsea. Didn't Joni Mitchell do a
> song about it too?
>
> Al, can you enlighten us on the Chelsea and its occupants?
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
don't forget leonard cohen
i remember you well at the chelsea hotel....giving me head on the unmade
bed.....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:03:10 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
In-Reply-To: <34873476.73E941E2@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
leonard cohen also mentions the chelsea in his tribute to janis joplin
(damn what was the name of that song...?) anyways the lines goes:
"i remeber you well in th chelsea hotel...
that is all i
do think you of you that often..."
and as far as i remember the chelsea was also home to herbert huncke for a
while, and countless other artists, etc (motherwell? rauchenberg? uh...)
yrs
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:26:45 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Harry Smith lived and died there as well.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
Author: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at Internet
Date: 12/4/97 4:03 PM
leonard cohen also mentions the chelsea in his tribute to janis joplin
(damn what was the name of that song...?) anyways the lines goes:
"i remeber you well in th chelsea hotel...
that is all i
do think you of you that often..."
and as far as i remember the chelsea was also home to herbert huncke for a
while, and countless other artists, etc (motherwell? rauchenberg? uh...)
yrs
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 18:31:05 -0500
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From: Sara Brosnan <coffee@MAIL.WDN.COM>
Subject: Re: beat influence
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> As far as i know punk/rap/rock band RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE got some
>
> influence from the beats: The Solist reads Allen Ginsberg poem America
>
> before each concert and in lyrics of song "Take The Power Back" it
> says
> ">its the beats and lyrics they fear." But i am not very sure if they
> are telling the same beats...
>
> (From the album Rage Against the Machine.)
>
I've been hearing a lot about RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE from various
sources. And I like the lyrics to "Take the Power Back". Does anyone
have any sugessitions of what album would be best to buy?
Sara
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:31:36 -0800
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From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat influence
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Sara Brosnan wrote:
> I've been hearing a lot about RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE from various
> sources. And I like the lyrics to "Take the Power Back". Does anyone
>
> have any sugessitions of what album would be best to buy?
>
> Sara
They only have two albums released in the US. IMHO, the first
album, self-titled, is far better. It has a b&w picture of a monk in
flames. Very moving cover, music even more moving. Gets all the angst
out.
-E
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 19:29:52 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
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Hey- as for poetry other than American- you have Thomas, Rilke, and Yeats-
anything else is a shallow imitation- wonder if I will get any flack on this?
GT
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:01:02 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Keratechnology
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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:
>I'm not so sure. There is a reason why Jack used paper, and not the
>phone to
>communicate. I think it's for documentation . E mail is erased after
>being
>read. Phone call is forgotten. Letters are here almost forever.
keep in mind also the comparative cost of phone vs. mail... i think
it's obvious that the beats wouldn't have had an aversion to new
technology, jack, and especially allen, were on tv frequently and both
made numerous recordings, jack extremely interested in using recording
devices to tape himself, etc... the fact that he mixed media with jazz
and lit., an aversion to new technology as inferior to classic form is
a symptom of vain intellectualism... they were too genius to succumb to
that trap or exclude any possibility of expanding their art based
solely on technological vanity.
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:31:03 EST
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From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
If you lined up end-to-end all the beers Kerouac, Wolfe and Thomas ever drank,
how far would they go?
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:36:53 EST
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From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Life imatates diaries
I heard on the news tonight about the kid who went beserk in Kentucky with a
rifle and killed three of his classmates, & was supposedly influenced by a scene
in the movie they made from Jim Carroll's BASKETBALL DIARIES. The scene depicts
a kids fantasy of doing the same. killing all his classmates with a rifle.
Has anyone heard any comments from Jim Carroll about this? Damn, at least the
kids didn't start using drugs instead!
Dave B.
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:27:46 -0600
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From: Irving Leif <ileif@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: St. Mark's Reading
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Nancy,
You are so right. I had a great time myself. It was truly a landmark
event. Most importantly, there was a whole new generation of Kerouac
readers. Amram was great, but so was Ann Waldman.
Irving
At 09:50 AM 12/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I went to the Some of the Dharma Reading last night at St.Mark's Church
>and it was awesome. I went by myself and wound up meeting this really cool
>art teacher from Mass. and the performances were so cool. David Amram was
>great at everything...he played the piano, flute, drums, whatever, and he
>sang. It was my first time at the Poetry Project and it was just great! I
>hope those of you who were there, enjoyed it!
>~Nancy
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:50:56 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: SOTD
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It was a reading of Some of The Dharma...what were you expecting, not to
be rude or anything? Everything that was read came from the book.
~Nancy
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Bill Gargan wrote:
> I decided at the last minute that I'd go down to St. Marks for the
> reading. It wasn't what I expected. I guess I thought it would be more
> like the celebration of OTR, where people were essentially reading
> passages from the work. The evening opened with introductory remarks by
> editor David Stanford, who provided both historical background and
> comments on editorial problems associated with publishing the SOD
> manuscript. Ann Douglas provided additional background reading and
> commented on Kerouac's buddhist beliefs, and read letters K had sent to
> Allen Ginsberg at the time he was working on SOD. The rest of the
> program was really a musical tribute with pieces by David Amram, Ed
> Sanders, Hitchhiker, Lee Renaldo and others. Anne Waldman also
> performed a couple of pieces. The program began about 8:30 and ended around
> 10:30. There was nearly a full house.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:12:47 -0800
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From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971204160052.78138A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca> from "Derek A. Beaulieu" at Dec 4,
97 04:03:10 pm
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> leonard cohen also mentions the chelsea in his tribute to janis joplin
> (damn what was the name of that song...?) anyways the lines goes:
> "i remeber you well in th chelsea hotel...
> that is all i
> do think you of you that often..."
> and as far as i remember the chelsea was also home to herbert huncke for a
> while, and countless other artists, etc (motherwell? rauchenberg? uh...)
My wife and I had our honeymoon there (not much money at the time,
so we couldn't do Paris). Pretty romantic place, funky atmosphere,
lobby full of paintings by local artists. Back then only about $100
a night, not bad. I definitely recommend it whenever friends ask
me where they should stay. On 23rd and 7th.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com |
| |
| Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/ |
| (the beat literature web site) |
| |
| "Coffeehouse: Writings from the Web" |
| (a real book, like on paper) |
| also at http://coffeehousebook.com |
| |
| *---*---*---*---*---*---*---*---* |
| |
| "When I was crazy, I thought you were great" |
| -- Ric Ocasek |
-------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:19:26 -0600
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From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
Comments: To: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <009BE47C.01479DE0.68@kenyon.edu>
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AROUND THE MOON TWICE?
"To live outside the law you must be honest."
--Bob Dylan
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, CIRCULATION wrote:
> If you lined up end-to-end all the beers Kerouac, Wolfe and Thomas ever drank,
> how far would they go?
>
> Dave B.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:29:55 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: the last time....
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In a message dated 97-12-04 11:10:42 EST, Kindlesan wrote:
<< i don't believe we can necessarily label
interpretations of one or two people from that time period unless we
ourselves spent significant time with them.......
>>
Most folks on the list HAVE spent significant time with them...that film is
one of the worst pieces of trash ever foisted on the public.
Best regards, Dennis
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:19:24 -0500
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From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: pop music and the beats.
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has anyone mentioned the 10,000 Maniacs song, "Hey Jack Kerouac" ? This
is an obvious beat influenced song by Natale Merchant. I have seen a few
postings about rage against the machine. Can't say i like them personally
because after meeting with the lead singer and actually talking about
current issues of the time, i found him to be a sheer hypocrite. Back in
1993 during the Lollapalooza tour, rage was playing. At the spoken word
tent he was answering questions by the fans that decided to visit him in
the tent. When the singer, Zak, was asked if he would support free speech
he said, "of course." When asked if he would support Howard STern and his
fight against the FCC, zak changed his tune and said, "No way man.
Howard is a racist." If memory serves correct, Zak was the same "racist"
who insisted of only having native americans at some of his shows in the
mid west. Funny how some people try to play both sides of the fence.
jason
ps. if anyone is looking for some music that isn't drenched in politics
like Rage, i suggest Jawbox. Very poetic and they even wrote a song based
on a william carlose williams poem.
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:37:22 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
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At 04:10 PM 12/4/97 -0600, Amy Vokac wrote:
>In high school my theatre department did Under Milkwood.
>His languageis beautiful in it.
Bob Dylan a.k.a. Robert Milkwood Thomas
on:
Steve Goodman: Somebody Else's Troubles - 1973
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:39:53 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
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At 05:53 PM 12/4/97 -0500, Bentz wrote:
>Is that the same hotel that Dylan once lived in? If so, does it change
>the meaning (to me) of this line from Sara?
>
>Stayin' up for days in the Chelsea Hotel,
>Writin' "Sad-Eyed Lady of the Lowlands" for you.
>
>Nah, not really, but it would be interesting to know what sort of
>literary types have lived at the Chelsea. Didn't Joni Mitchell do a
>song about it too?
Leonard Cohen got head from Janis Joplin there. As
imortalized in the song.
Mike
PS. As well as the Sid & Nancy connection.
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:41:24 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
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At 08:31 PM 12/4/97 EST, Dave B. wrote:
>If you lined up end-to-end all the beers Kerouac, Wolfe and Thomas ever drank,
>how far would they go?
My liver. . .
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:44:41 -0600
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From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: the last time....
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At 12:45 PM 12/4/97 +1000, you wrote:
>G'day all,
>
>has anyone else had the sad misfortune of seeing a film called "The last
>time i committed suicide" , which i sat through last night hissing through
>clamped teeth? I've often wondered when or whether the right kind of movie
>treatment of some beat writers will eventuate - this was a really
>mindfuckingly stupid attempt, dealing as it did with a visual rendition of
>one of neal cassady's letters to jack - little bits of dialogue here and
>there offered promises almost immediately dashed against some
>hollywood/madison avenue figment of 'the beat'
>
>
>i dont want to say more at this stage other that the only authentic feel
>for the time is the music (a la miles davis, or maybe himself - i couldnt
>be bothered scanning the credits)
>
>i heard/read somewhere that FFCoppola has the rights to 'on the road' -
>anyone know more?
>--
>bye for now,
>#<|||||||||||||||||||||||># John Pullicino #<|||||||||||||||||||||||>#
>(|||||||||||||||||||) #jjpull@pac.com.au# (|||||||||||||||||||)
>#<|||||||||||||># *Team AMIGA WorldWide* #<|||||||||||||||>#
>
>
John, we've had both of these threads earlier. Coppola is working on
OTR. A lot of people here liked the Last Time I etc. I agree with
you.
Mike Rice
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:58:44 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Bars/Taverns
In-Reply-To: <009BE47C.01479DE0.68@kenyon.edu>
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>If you lined up end-to-end all the beers Kerouac, Wolfe and Thomas ever drank,
>how far would they go?
>
>Dave B.
All the way to the Beat List.
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:47:20 EST
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From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
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valori salanis(sp?) who wrote the scum manifesto was there for awhile. so
was sid vicious and nancy spungeon, who died there. my 1 1/2 cents have a
nice night and a happy halloween
chad
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:28:30 -0500
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From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Cakebread, Dylan and Bern....
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Hi Mike,
Can you fill in a few more details for us? Does Goodman use that
name as a veiled reference to Mr. Zimmerman? ...in the song you mentioned?
Speaking of Dylan, did you catch an article in the Globe and Mail
back at the end of October titled Tangled up in Bob? It covered other
singers with strong dylanesque leanings including one Dan Bern. He is quite
amazing...not quite sure how much is send-up vs. being totally immersed and
in love with the sound. Very good album with two decidedly beat songs:
"Rome" with a real on the road road song feel.....
We pulled into Rome with blood in our eyes
After days of travellin', months of lies.
Takin' our various turns at the wheel
Taking booze and pot and cigarettes, anything not to feel.
and "wasteland"...
I saw the best minds of my generation playing pinball
Maked up and caked up and lookin' like some kind of china doll
With all of Adolf Hitler's moves down cold
As they stood up in front of a rock n' roll band
And always movin' upward and ever upward to this gentle golden
promised land.
I haven't tired of him yet. The article is worth reading also if you
haven't seen it.
Antoine
********************
>At 04:10 PM 12/4/97 -0600, Amy Vokac wrote:
>
>>In high school my theatre department did Under Milkwood.
>>His languageis beautiful in it.
>
>Bob Dylan a.k.a. Robert Milkwood Thomas
>
>on:
>
>Steve Goodman: Somebody Else's Troubles - 1973
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:03:34 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: the last time....
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In a message dated 97-12-05 00:06:37 EST, you write:
<< Most folks on the list HAVE spent significant time with them. >>
well in that case i suppose i can just keep my mouth shut ;o)
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:03:58 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Cakebread, Dylan and Bern....
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At 01:28 AM 12/5/97 -0500, Antoine wrote:
>Can you fill in a few more details for us? Does
>Goodman use that name as a veiled reference
>to Mr. Zimmerman? ...in the song you mentioned?
Hey Antoine et al,
"Robert Milkwood Thomas" is a pseudonym that Dylan used
on the Goodman album mentioned in the original post.
He plays piano and sings harmony on two songs:
"Election Year Rag"
"Somebody Else's Troubles"
>Speaking of Dylan, did you catch an article in the Globe and Mail
>back at the end of October titled Tangled up in Bob?
No I didn't, but my roomates have a whole pile of old
Globe's kicking around and I'll root through em. If it's
not there I'll hit the library.
Thanx,
Mike (PS. How's things in Montreal? Keeping the Maudit(sp.)
cold?)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:07:10 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: music
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I am not a musical person but.
When i was house sitting for william (wsb) when he was in new york for
his 70 birthday, i got a phone call and . oh around 7, asking for
william's number in NY, i politely said, im sorry but i can't give out
where he is ( he was at the bunker getting ready to go to the party) ,
the man said he would like the address of the bunker or address of the
place of the party, again i demurred. we were at a stalemate, then i
offered to take his number and give it to william, the guy said yes,
yes, i'm frank zappa, well i did a double take, then said,(looking
hurriedly in williams rollodex, under frank, there he was. then quickly
gavin mr zappa the particulars. I heard he sent literally dozens of
long stem red roses to the bar where the party was at. It was quite a
party. william brought me back the neatest poster, it was a shadowy
siluette of him. signed by the artist and by william. I know that this
might not be "not boring" but i so seldom have a musical story. I
remember that when bob dylan played in kansas city, william went and
visited with him back stage. James g has group and i hear it is very
good, i haven't made it out to hear him. as i have "married with
children" syndrome.
patricia
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:09:47 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: music ps
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i also remember that william was flattered that david bowie had painted
a protrait of him, I remember hearing it was very striking.
patricia
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:00:27 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
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Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:
>
> I know virtually zilch about Dylan Thomas--can anyone suggest a good book
> and/or website? Plus, which of his poetry collections is best? Plus
> anything anybody else has to add...
>
> thanks
>
> Don Lee
> Fayetteville, Ark.
>
> "Might as well be frank, monsieur. It would take a miracle to get you
> out of Casablanca and the Germans have outlawed miracles."
his stories, by all means. instead of reading new books, i read them
three times; they are completely psychodelic; and they just can't seem
to leave me.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:34:31 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: music ps
Frank Zappa - now there's one hell of a guy. if you haven't heard it, his
last cd "The Yellow Shark" is amazing. it's more of a "serious" music
style, performed by an avante-garde chamber ensemble - reminiscent of Cage,
Glass, Schoenberg, yet all very Zappa, as only Zappa can be. but it's full
of outrageous, beautiful, caustic, funny, dark, enlightened sound, words and
ideas. check it out if you get a chance. Frank began to be quite ill while
the "ensemble" was being toured around the world and i'm not sure if the cd
was released before his death or not.
ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Thursday, December 04, 1997 11:11 PM
Subject: music ps
>i also remember that william was flattered that david bowie had painted
>a protrait of him, I remember hearing it was very striking.
>patricia
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:39:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: this is long and i know this isn't Beat, but
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it's wonderful. and the notion about life and destiny seems right in =
line with our Beat folks.
=20
>From Milan Kundera's "The Book of Laughter and Forgetting":
=20
"At the same time, he made a name for himself as a scientist, and that =
protected him. The state needed him, so he could allow himself to be =
caustic about it at a time when hardly anyone was daring to. Little by =
little, as those who were in pursuit of their own act gained influence, =
he appeared on television more and more, becoming well known. After the =
Russians arrived, he refused to renounce his convictions, was removed =
from his job and hounded by the secret police. That didn't break him. =
He was in love with his destiny, and even his march toward ruin seemed =
noble and beauitful to him.
=20
Please understand me: I said he was in love with his destiny, not with =
himself. These are two entirely different things. It is as if life had =
freed itself and suddenly had interests of its own, which did not =
correspond at all to Mirek's. This is how, I believe, life turns itself =
into destiny. Destiny has no intention of lifting a finger for Mirek =
(for his happiness, his security, his good spirits, his health), whereas =
Mirek is ready to do everything for his destiny (for its grandeur, its =
clarity, its beauty, its style, its intelligible meaning). He felt =
responsible for his destiny, but his destiny did not feel responsible =
for him.
=20
His connection to his life was that of a sculptor to his statue or a =
novelist to a novel...."
ciao, sherri
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<HEAD>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>it's wonderful. =
and the notion=20
about life and destiny seems right in line with our Beat =
folks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =
size=3D5></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>From Milan =
Kundera's "The=20
Book of Laughter and Forgetting":</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DLoosieScript></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DLoosieScript>"At the same time, he made a name =
for himself=20
as a scientist, and that protected him. The state needed him, so =
he could=20
allow himself to be caustic about it at a time when hardly anyone was =
daring=20
to. Little by little, as those who were in pursuit of their own =
act gained=20
influence, he appeared on television more and more, becoming well =
known. =20
After the Russians arrived, he refused to renounce his convictions, was =
removed=20
from his job and hounded by the secret police. That didn't break=20
him. He was in love with his destiny, and even his march toward =
ruin=20
seemed noble and beauitful to him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DLoosieScript></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DLoosieScript>Please understand me: I said he was =
in love=20
with his destiny, not with himself. These are two entirely =
different=20
things. It is as if life had freed itself and suddenly had =
interests of=20
its own, which did not correspond at all to Mirek's. This is how, =
I=20
believe, life turns itself into destiny. Destiny has no intention =
of=20
lifting a finger for Mirek (for his happiness, his security, his good =
spirits,=20
his health), whereas Mirek is ready to do everything for his destiny =
(for its=20
grandeur, its clarity, its beauty, its style, its intelligible =
meaning). =20
He felt responsible for his destiny, but his destiny did not feel =
responsible=20
for him.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DLoosieScript></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DLoosieScript>His connection to his life was that of a =
sculptor=20
to his statue or a novelist to a novel...."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>ciao,=20
sherri</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:03:34 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Gender of Nature...
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Haven't been able to read the list much over the last several weeks and =
have a bunch of unread stuff on my computer at work, because i kept =
forgetting to put this list on digest. at any rate, that's the reason =
for this late post on this thread. and i apologize if i'm repeating =
something already said.
i don't believe that any culture has ever ascribed the moon with =
masculine attributes nor the sun with feminine. it appears that the =
moon has been tied to the feminine reproductive cycle since ancient =
times and certainly in Native American culture the moon is known as =
Grandmother Moon, Earth as Mother Earth, sky as Father Sky (which i =
think may be synonymous with the sun, not certain though).
mi taku oyasin, sherri
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<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><BASE=20
href=3D"file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft =
Shared\Stationery\">
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bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>Haven't been =
able to read the=20
list much over the last several weeks and have a bunch of unread stuff =
on my=20
computer at work, because i kept forgetting to put this list on =
digest. at=20
any rate, that's the reason for this late post on this thread. and =
i=20
apologize if i'm repeating something already said.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =
size=3D5></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>i don't believe =
that any=20
culture has ever ascribed the moon with masculine attributes nor the sun =
with=20
feminine. it appears that the moon has been tied to the feminine=20
reproductive cycle since ancient times and certainly in Native American =
culture=20
the moon is known as Grandmother Moon, Earth as Mother Earth, sky as =
Father Sky=20
(which i think may be synonymous with the sun, not certain =
though).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript =
size=3D5></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D5>mi taku oyasin,=20
sherri</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:46:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: pop music and the beats.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971205001339.4060B-100000@turbo.kean.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hey Jack Kerouac
I think of your mother and the tears she cried for none other
than her little boy lost in our little world that hated and thay dared to
drag him down...
Allen BabY why so jaded have you boys all gone away and their music
faded...
These are some of the lyrics that I can remember but im not sure how
accurate it is...you can find the lyrics at the Int'l Lyrics Server on the
web...
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, PoOka(the friendly ghost) wrote:
> has anyone mentioned the 10,000 Maniacs song, "Hey Jack Kerouac" ? This
> is an obvious beat influenced song by Natale Merchant. I have seen a few
> postings about rage against the machine. Can't say i like them personally
> because after meeting with the lead singer and actually talking about
> current issues of the time, i found him to be a sheer hypocrite. Back in
> 1993 during the Lollapalooza tour, rage was playing. At the spoken word
> tent he was answering questions by the fans that decided to visit him in
> the tent. When the singer, Zak, was asked if he would support free speech
> he said, "of course." When asked if he would support Howard STern and his
> fight against the FCC, zak changed his tune and said, "No way man.
> Howard is a racist." If memory serves correct, Zak was the same "racist"
> who insisted of only having native americans at some of his shows in the
> mid west. Funny how some people try to play both sides of the fence.
>
> jason
>
> ps. if anyone is looking for some music that isn't drenched in politics
> like Rage, i suggest Jawbox. Very poetic and they even wrote a song based
> on a william carlose williams poem.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:47:37 -0500
Reply-To: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@is8.nyu.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
In-Reply-To: <199712050537.AAA20336@ionline.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I thought Bob Dylan's real name was Robert Zimmerman...
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, M. Cakebread wrote:
> At 04:10 PM 12/4/97 -0600, Amy Vokac wrote:
>
> >In high school my theatre department did Under Milkwood.
> >His languageis beautiful in it.
>
> Bob Dylan a.k.a. Robert Milkwood Thomas
>
> on:
>
> Steve Goodman: Somebody Else's Troubles - 1973
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:48:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
In-Reply-To: <9a3afe83.3487956a@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Valerie Salonas...check out I Shot Andy Warhol...
On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Sad enigma wrote:
> valori salanis(sp?) who wrote the scum manifesto was there for awhile. so
> was sid vicious and nancy spungeon, who died there. my 1 1/2 cents have a
> nice night and a happy halloween
>
>
> chad
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:58:33 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: music
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
patricia: you have yet to be boring, and i absolutly cracked up reading
your story, please keep them coming, you make wsb (your william) come
alive in a way that is unique and wondrous.
mc
Patricia Elliott wrote:
> I am not a musical person but.
> When i was house sitting for william (wsb) when he was in new york for
> his 70 birthday, i got a phone call and . oh around 7, asking for
> william's number in NY, i politely said, im sorry but i can't give out
> where he is ( he was at the bunker getting ready to go to the party) ,
> the man said he would like the address of the bunker or address of the
> place of the party, again i demurred. we were at a stalemate, then i
> offered to take his number and give it to william, the guy said yes,
> yes, i'm frank zappa, well i did a double take, then said,(looking
> hurriedly in williams rollodex, under frank, there he was. then quickly
> gavin mr zappa the particulars. I heard he sent literally dozens of
> long stem red roses to the bar where the party was at. It was quite a
> party. william brought me back the neatest poster, it was a shadowy
> siluette of him. signed by the artist and by william. I know that this
> might not be "not boring" but i so seldom have a musical story. I
> remember that when bob dylan played in kansas city, william went and
> visited with him back stage. James g has group and i hear it is very
> good, i haven't made it out to hear him. as i have "married with
> children" syndrome.
> patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:11:11 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Life imatates death
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
db: don't know don't know but sure do know that at least the DARE cop did his
job.
no drugs, but here's a handgun, kiddo....
mc
CIRCULATION wrote:
> I heard on the news tonight about the kid who went beserk in Kentucky with a
> rifle and killed three of his classmates, & was supposedly influenced by a
scene
> in the movie they made from Jim Carroll's BASKETBALL DIARIES. The scene
depicts
> a kids fantasy of doing the same. killing all his classmates with a rifle.
>
> Has anyone heard any comments from Jim Carroll about this? Damn, at least the
> kids didn't start using drugs instead!
>
> Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:27:03 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
flack. no time to enumerate. but you get what you asked for:
flack.
mc
GTL1951 wrote:
> Hey- as for poetry other than American- you have Thomas, Rilke, and Yeats-
> anything else is a shallow imitation- wonder if I will get any flack on this?
> GT
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:41:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Apologizing to Your Mouth
Comments: To: Kindlesan@aol.com
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Perhaps my response was a bit short...even curt, but I did NOT say that you
should shut your mouth. I was pointing out that even though Jack and Neal
were not close personal friends of mine, I've been reading and studying them
for about 35 years. Many list members are in this canoe with me and most of
us continue to paddle furiously. Many feel that the movie did not present
the guys we have come to know...If a public apology on the list is
necessary...say the word and it shall be done...I have a tendency to respond
quickly and sharply... I need to work on that...I often give offense where
none is intended.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:51:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Me too, me too.
Marie Countryman wrote:
> flack. no time to enumerate. but you get what you asked for:
> flack.
> mc
>
> GTL1951 wrote:
>
> > Hey- as for poetry other than American- you have Thomas, Rilke, and Yeats-
> > anything else is a shallow imitation- wonder if I will get any flack on
this?
> > GT
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 06:47:55 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Life imatates death
Marie, what a perfect response! <grinning> how are things, girl? ciao,
sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Friday, December 05, 1997 6:14 AM
Subject: Re: Life imatates death
>db: don't know don't know but sure do know that at least the DARE cop did
his
> job.
>no drugs, but here's a handgun, kiddo....
>mc
>
>CIRCULATION wrote:
>
>> I heard on the news tonight about the kid who went beserk in Kentucky
with a
>> rifle and killed three of his classmates, & was supposedly influenced by
a
> scene
>> in the movie they made from Jim Carroll's BASKETBALL DIARIES. The scene
> depicts
>> a kids fantasy of doing the same. killing all his classmates with a
rifle.
>>
>> Has anyone heard any comments from Jim Carroll about this? Damn, at least
the
>> kids didn't start using drugs instead!
>>
>> Dave B.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:03:49 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I have looked for flack, but darn it , my husband seemed to need all i
had last night , i find myself in the unusual postition of being low on
flack, try me later.
patricia
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Me too, me too.
>
> Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> > flack. no time to enumerate. but you get what you asked for:
> > flack.
> > mc
> >
> > GTL1951 wrote:
> >
> > > Hey- as for poetry other than American- you have Thomas, Rilke, and Yeats-
> > > anything else is a shallow imitation- wonder if I will get any flack on
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:44:51 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: speaking of music
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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dylan's new CD is not only musically beauteous, with his singing
absolutely from the heart and his lyrics among his finest poetry ever
written.
i suggest it heartily - put it on yr christmas list, blow money you
would have spent on something else,
but get it.
listen.
it's been years since i've been so enraptured by the man and his
writings, and of course his music.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:12:32 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: apology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD014D.27D19C80"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD014D.27D19C80
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
using new e-mail program, looked like i was responding backchannel to =
Marie, sorry to have wasted bandwidth.
ciao, sherri
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD014D.27D19C80
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D4><FONT =
size=3D5>using new e-mail=20
program, looked like i was responding backchannel to Marie, sorry to =
have wasted=20
bandwidth.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D4><FONT=20
size=3D5></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DLoosieScript size=3D4><FONT =
size=3D5>ciao,=20
sherri</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD014D.27D19C80--
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:34:18 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
Chelsea Clinton stayed at the Chelsea. So did Socks.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:04:35 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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CIRCULATION wrote:
> Chelsea Clinton stayed at the Chelsea. So did Socks.
wearing mrs nixon's cloth coat.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:26:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:04 PM 12/5/97 +0000, Marie wrote:
>CIRCULATION wrote:
>
>> Chelsea Clinton stayed at the Chelsea. So did Socks.
>
> wearing mrs nixon's cloth coat.
and Jackie K's leopard-skin pill-box hat
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:46:33 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Life imitates diaries
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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No word yet from the Jim Carroll camp. However, more likely than not, any
information available could be found at
http://home.forbin.com/~laverne/carroll/carroll.html, a page run by one Cassie
Carter, who seems to be in close contact with Carroll. As of today, there are
no updates, but I've put in an email w/ Carter asking if there will be any
official "release" by Carroll & co. I'll post any info I receive < if, in
fact, there is interest on the list.>
The website is quite an accomplishment, by the way --- sound & video, an
unpublished poem, performance schedules & reviews, rare photos, a bio, a
bibliography and tons of links. Hope all fellow Carroll-admirers check it
out...
Take care,
Starfishes from Seattle
L. Deal
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:53:37 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: SOTD
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:50:56 -0500 from
<nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
I expected more of a marathon reading as was the case with the OTR celebration.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:10:06 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: elf abuse
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Speakin' of elf abuse -- has anyone else checked out David Sedaris' amazing
short story in his '95 book BARREL FEVER? Well, the story SantaLand Diaries is
a hoot -- detailing the abuses of a Macy's Elf.... It'd put anyone in the Xmas
spirit...
Happy Holidays...hehe
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:48:05 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Michael McClure and Jim Morrison.
In-Reply-To: <3487BA9E.3C78@egenet.com.tr>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Murat says:
>> Jim Morrison Interview by Jerry Hopkins - Rolling Stone 26th jul 1969.?
>> []yes
>> []no
> [+] i dont know.
>
> Yrs,
> Murat.
*****************************
Murat e tutti voi cari amici,
Jim Morrison interviewed tell he was writing a screenplay
together with Michael McClure on the basis of a unpublished
McClure's novel. McClure typewrites directly the ideas when
they are together. The plot of the movie is a story about
three characters looking for a psychic treasure... one of
them called Rourke is neo-capitalist devoted to the revolution...
both are longhair hippies... and they took the airplane to Mexico
and they meet a black kid called Derner. The trio ventured
out to the desert in order to meet a border guard to pull
off a robbery...
Jim Morrison's as cinema student at UCLA was described by
Oliver Stones' movie "The Doors" (1991)
an italian remark sideway, Tito Schipa jr was the italian
translator of Jim Morrison's lyrics and poems.
Tito Schipa senior (Lecce 1889- New York 1965) was a famous
tenor opera singer.
i hope this help, and other friends can help you to further dig a
lot mcclure and morrison connection,
The blue bus is calling us
The blue bus is calling us
Driver where you taking us?
saluti da
Rinaldo.
_________
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:57:14 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: tristan saldana <hbeng175@EMAIL.CSUN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Michael McClure and Jim Morrison.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971205224805.00b746dc@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I saw McClure and Manzarek at the LA County Museum of Art in October.
They had a one-hour gig. McClure performed his poetry and Manzarek did
the interpreting with the piano. Manzarek played "Riders on the Storm" to
one of McClures pieces. It was quite good. Manzarek and McClure said the
there is an Egyptian belief that whenever you say a person's name that
you, in effect, resurrect their spirit. They closed with saying Jim's
name.
Tristan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:02:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: speaking of music
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Marie:
I was sitting here listening to TOOM and thinking about how good this work
is by Bob Dylan. When I see your post. Listen to the woman folks, she
knows what she is talking about here. I love it when he say, "People
asked me about you, but I didn't tell them everything I knew!" "I'm gonna
find me a janitor to sweep" Marie "off her feet."
Still a Million miles from you, I am
Bentz
Marie Countryman wrote:
> dylan's new CD is not only musically beauteous, with his singing
> absolutely from the heart and his lyrics among his finest poetry ever
> written.
> i suggest it heartily - put it on yr christmas list, blow money you
> would have spent on something else,
> but get it.
> listen.
> it's been years since i've been so enraptured by the man and his
> writings, and of course his music.
> mc
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:04:49 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ryan White <whitery@UCS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: beat influence
In-Reply-To: <34873D39.BA1B343@mail.wdn.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Sara Brosnan wrote:
> > As far as i know punk/rap/rock band RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE got some
> >
> > influence from the beats: The Solist reads Allen Ginsberg poem America
> >
> > before each concert and in lyrics of song "Take The Power Back" it
> > says
> > ">its the beats and lyrics they fear." But i am not very sure if they
> > are telling the same beats...
> >
> > (From the album Rage Against the Machine.)
> >
>
> I've been hearing a lot about RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE from various
> sources. And I like the lyrics to "Take the Power Back". Does anyone
> have any sugessitions of what album would be best to buy?
>
> Sara
>
>
There first, self-titled album is the best. There second album, "Evil
Empire" is also very, very good!
Buh-Bye!
Ryan
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:02:00 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Re: the last time ....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Ugh... a friend loaned me the movie after she had rented it and before she
> had to take it back to the video store. I don't know whether it was the
> offensive portrayal of Neal, or the lame portrayal of Allen,
I don't remember a "portrayal of allen" in the movie.
did i miss that part completely?
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:08:34 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Louis Ginsberg poem
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> From:
> "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
>
>
> beat-l'ers
> just thought that some of you migt like to read this poem by Luois
> Ginsberg, from his _Morning in Spring and other poems_
>
> "To a mother, buried"
>
> Naomi, when the world swam away,
> and the windows grew blind,
> were you thinking about who searched endless corridors
> of sanitariums, hoping to find
> His old lost love?
> now with eart above
> do you know that your lawyer son, Eugene,
> often will start,
> at the grief, shaking,
> the dungeon of his heart?
> if only you knew how
> your poet son, Allen,
> Raves over the world,
> Crazed for the love of you.
>
I must say, this is the first time i've read Louis' work. In just this
one poem, you can see why Allen might have chosen poetry as his main
life's work. Please share more of his poems, and any info about louis'
books would also be appreciated.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:31:55 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: the last time ....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:02 PM 12/5/97 -0600, cathy wrote:
>I don't remember a "portrayal of allen" in the movie.
>did i miss that part completely?
I believe he was in the football scene?
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:15:06 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time....
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane De Rooy
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 1997 9:02 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the last time....
In a message dated 97-12-04 02:16:31 EST, John wrote:
<< has anyone else had the sad misfortune of seeing a film called "The last
time i committed suicide" >>
I don't know whether it was the
offensive portrayal of Neal, or the lame portrayal of Allen, or the stupid
jerky camera affectations, or the contrived hipness of the soundtrack, but
itwas, without exception, the most stupefyingly dumb <fill in the blank> I had
ever rewound after 17 minutes.
diane
Hmmm....I don't know, I didn't hate it. I think the camera was present almost
as a character in the film. It's like the director was trying to imitate
Cassady's frenetic movement visually. Overall, I agree it did seem too . . .
slick? If the homosexual male was a portrayal of A.G, it was way off . . . I
agree with you there. But it seemed like EVERYTHING about the film was kind
of exaggerated...
(Ferlinghetti basically said that the actor playing Neal looked too preppy and
clean-cut. I don't think the actor really looked preppy at all; his style
seemed very current(as far as "gen-x", GAP,etc.) But IMO the current styles
harken back to the way they were dressing in the fifties.)
Anyway, back to the exaggeration thing: was there a purpose for it
sylistically(sp)? I think the director was struggling to characterize a man
who defied characterization. He was a legend. I really think it is hard to
portray someone like that honestly. Kerouac faced the same issue in Visions
of Cody. It was like he was twisting, turning, telling, re-telling, making
false starts, in his attempt to find TRUTH. In the end he reached the same
conclusion that the director(Steven kays?) did: How reliable is one man's
vision of another man. The movie is flawed, but necessarily so. Why did you
think the portrayal of Cassady was offensive? I think it was at least true to
his letter . It was definitely true to my(second-hand) visions of neal. He
lived his life at lightening speed to avoid thinking about . . .the last time
he committed suicide? It's like he was living with all of these regrets about
a life he may have considered mis-directed. In order to survive, he had to
exist two steps ahead. In the end, I guess, he just get swept under by the
tide. The point is that I kind of like. . . dig this movie! How's that for
contrived hipness:)
O.K, back to the point: I think the movie shows us the humanity of an amazing
(and flawed) individual.
Sorry to be so longwinded. I hope this convoluted mess makes sense.
Good-night all!
Shani
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 03:15:14 UT
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Shani St.John" <lawlaw1@CLASSIC.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: the last time....
----------
From: BEAT-L: Beat Generation List on behalf of Diane De Rooy
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 1997 9:02 AM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: the last time....
In a message dated 97-12-04 02:16:31 EST, John wrote:
<< has anyone else had the sad misfortune of seeing a film called "The last
time i committed suicide" >>
Ugh... a friend loaned me the movie after she had rented it and before she
had to take it back to the video store. I don't know whether it was the
offensive portrayal of Neal, or the lame portrayal of Allen, or the stupid
jerky camera affectations, or the contrived hipness of the soundtrack, but it
was, without exception, the most stupefyingly dumb <fill in the blank> I had
ever rewound after 17 minutes. I simply could not watch it. And I can't think
of another movie I've ever felt that way about.
diane
Hmmm....I don't know, I didn't hate it. I think the camera was present almost
as a character in the film. It's like the director was trying to imitate
Cassady's frenetic movement visually. Overall, it does seem somewhat . . .
slick? If the homosexual male was a portrayal of A.G, it was way off . . . I
agree with you there. But it seemed like EVERYTHING about the film was kind
of exaggerated...
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:22:23 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Just a little bad news
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
For people who didn't know, Micheal Hedges, guitarist extraordinaire, passed
on this past week. He was a guitarist best known for being a Windham Hill
Records, but really, his live shows (and I only saw two) were incredible. He
was one of those pure whimsical souls that this planet just doen't have enough
of. He was 43 and drove his car off the road in Calif, north of San Fran. He
does have some great songs as well as great covers. I'm sad to say I only have
one record by him and one Windham Hill compilation that includes him. I always
thought that I would catch up to him (go see his shows) when I have a little
more money. Now it won't help no matter how much money I have.
so it goes, but go do your thing,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:45:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: pop music and the beats.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971205001339.4060B-100000@turbo.kean.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
aAt 00:19 05/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>has anyone mentioned the 10,000 Maniacs song, "Hey Jack Kerouac" ? This
>is an obvious beat influenced song by Natale Merchant. I have seen a few
>postings about rage against the machine. Can't say i like them personally
>because after meeting with the lead singer and actually talking about
>current issues of the time, i found him to be a sheer hypocrite. Back in
>1993 during the Lollapalooza tour, rage was playing. At the spoken word
>tent he was answering questions by the fans that decided to visit him in
>the tent. When the singer, Zak, was asked if he would support free speech
>he said, "of course." When asked if he would support Howard STern and his
>fight against the FCC, zak changed his tune and said, "No way man.
>Howard is a racist." If memory serves correct, Zak was the same "racist"
>who insisted of only having native americans at some of his shows in the
>mid west. Funny how some people try to play both sides of the fence.
>
> jason
Steve Earle has a song called "I'm The Other Kind" which has lyrics that go:
"Before you can say Jack Kerouac
Just turn your back
And I'll be gone"
Glenn C.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Life does not imitate art, it imitates bad television."
-- Woody Allen
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:01:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: THE PINE by Dylan Thomas
In-Reply-To: <199712051726.MAA07800@ionline.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
THE PINE by Dylan Thomas (1929)
Virgate and sprung of the dusk,
The pine is the tree of the breeze,
And the winds that stream through the ribboned light
And the motley winds from the seas.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:34:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
Comments: To: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@is8.nyu.edu>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971205074709.7055B-100000@is8.nyu.edu>
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On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> I thought Bob Dylan's real name was Robert Zimmerman...
>
Yes, Bob Dylan was born Robert Zimmerman. When he moved to New York, and
started playing clubs, he wanted a less semitic name and changed it to
Bob Dillon (Dillon being his maternal grandfather's last name)
Supposedly, right before he signed his first album contract, he changed
the spelling to "Dylan" because people were always misspelling Dillon and
leaving off one of the "i's" He figured if people were going to spell it
Bob "Dilon", it looked better with a "y" than an "i"
The story that he changed his name in honor of Dylan Thomas was a total
myth probably fabricated by the press.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:32:32 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
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Richard Wallner wrote:
>
> On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> > I thought Bob Dylan's real name was Robert Zimmerman...
> >
>
> Yes, Bob Dylan was born Robert Zimmerman. When he moved to New York, and
> started playing clubs, he wanted a less semitic name and changed it to
> Bob Dillon (Dillon being his maternal grandfather's last name)
> Supposedly, right before he signed his first album contract, he changed
> the spelling to "Dylan" because people were always misspelling Dillon and
> leaving off one of the "i's" He figured if people were going to spell it
> Bob "Dilon", it looked better with a "y" than an "i"
>
> The story that he changed his name in honor of Dylan Thomas was a total
> myth probably fabricated by the press.
my understanding was that the shift to Dillon came earlier perhaps after
his journey to Denver but definitely still in the Dinkytown days. The
same reason of a less semetic name at the University of Minnesota was
what i'd heard. it is difficult to say, it seems to me, what legends
about "bob" are productions of the press and which are yarns he spun at
one time or another merely to discard when the press began to think they
had him "figured out".
i recall about five years ago i was teaching a course on the rhetoric of
protest music somewhere along the Mississippi and i sent off to a bunch
of folks for more information (addresses which had accumulated over the
years and never followed through on). . . . i wrote this kind of
formalish note about teaching this course and looking for more
information about bob dillon which might me useful in the course. i
received a reply saying "it's D-Y-L-A-N you idiot!". I got a real kick
out of that. Never did get around to filling the fools in on the rest
of the story.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:03:57 -0500
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From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Just a little bad news
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Didn't know of Michael Hedges work Attila, but will chase the album down.
I'm a big fan of Leo Kottke, Richard Thompson, Bert Jansch, Sandy Bull, John
Fahey but hadn't heard Hedges. Is he like any of them in style?
Thanks for the tip and the tribute.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:29:19 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: read kerouac
In-Reply-To: <199712051726.MAA07800@ionline.net>
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http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/indeterminacy/names.html
http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/indeterminacy/s.cgi?174
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:32:48 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.95.971205074814.7055C-100000@is8.nyu.edu> from "Nancy
B Brodsky" at Dec 5, 97 07:48:37 am
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This may sound like a silly question,but here goes anyways...
Have any of you ever stayed at the Chelsea?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 12:42:04 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: speaking of music
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thanks for your response, bentz: when most girls my age were choosing jr prom
dresses and jr high pom pom squads, i was buying dylan 45s and listnenig to
al kooper mike bloomfield, etc. i have yet to meet a woman who can listen to
music the way my guy friends can. i know they are out there. it's just so
nice to be able to talk music off or on list. btw, i am mad for dave
matthews, for lyrics and great fusion instrumentals. when i tell most folks
that, i have to duck the rotten vegggies.
"but i'm tryin to get to heaven before they close the door" as dylan tells
us. time is short. follow your bliss.
this year i have lost everything and gained twice as much in spirtuality..
mc
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Marie:
>
> I was sitting here listening to TOOM and thinking about how good this work
> is by Bob Dylan. When I see your post. Listen to the woman folks, she
> knows what she is talking about here. I love it when he say, "People
> asked me about you, but I didn't tell them everything I knew!" "I'm gonna
> find me a janitor to sweep" Marie "off her feet."
>
> Still a Million miles from you, I am
>
> Bentz
> Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> > dylan's new CD is not only musically beauteous, with his singing
> > absolutely from the heart and his lyrics among his finest poetry ever
> > written.
> > i suggest it heartily - put it on yr christmas list, blow money you
> > would have spent on something else,
> > but get it.
> > listen.
> > it's been years since i've been so enraptured by the man and his
> > writings, and of course his music.
> > mc
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:24:12 EST
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From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
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I stayed at the Chelsea once. The room was a suite and it was economical (for
New York City) because I was with four others. I don't think its very
practical to stay there if you're alone. The location is good too - New York
really has very few hotels near Grenwhich Village. It's funky - its fun to
waunder the halls. The lobby is great - lots of interesting artwork. It sure
beats a Holiday Inn!
Howard
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:31:41 -0800
Reply-To: Sherri <love_singing@email.msn.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sherri <love_singing@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: speaking of music
ah marie - you haven't listened to music with me!!! ciao, sherri
-----Original Message-----
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Saturday, December 06, 1997 9:54 AM
Subject: Re: speaking of music
>thanks for your response, bentz: when most girls my age were choosing jr
prom
>dresses and jr high pom pom squads, i was buying dylan 45s and listnenig to
>al kooper mike bloomfield, etc. i have yet to meet a woman who can listen
to
>music the way my guy friends can. i know they are out there. it's just so
>nice to be able to talk music off or on list. btw, i am mad for dave
>matthews, for lyrics and great fusion instrumentals. when i tell most folks
>that, i have to duck the rotten vegggies.
>"but i'm tryin to get to heaven before they close the door" as dylan tells
>us. time is short. follow your bliss.
>this year i have lost everything and gained twice as much in spirtuality..
>mc
>
>R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
>> Marie:
>>
>> I was sitting here listening to TOOM and thinking about how good this
work
>> is by Bob Dylan. When I see your post. Listen to the woman folks, she
>> knows what she is talking about here. I love it when he say, "People
>> asked me about you, but I didn't tell them everything I knew!" "I'm
gonna
>> find me a janitor to sweep" Marie "off her feet."
>>
>> Still a Million miles from you, I am
>>
>> Bentz
>> Marie Countryman wrote:
>>
>> > dylan's new CD is not only musically beauteous, with his singing
>> > absolutely from the heart and his lyrics among his finest poetry ever
>> > written.
>> > i suggest it heartily - put it on yr christmas list, blow money you
>> > would have spent on something else,
>> > but get it.
>> > listen.
>> > it's been years since i've been so enraptured by the man and his
>> > writings, and of course his music.
>> > mc
>>
>> --
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> Bentz
>> bocelts@scsn.net
>> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:06:26 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas
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At 10:34 AM 12/6/97 -0500, Richard Wallner wrote:
>On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
>> I thought Bob Dylan's real name was Robert Zimmerman...
>>
>
>Yes, Bob Dylan was born Robert Zimmerman. When he moved to New York, and
>started playing clubs, he wanted a less semitic name and changed it to
>Bob Dillon (Dillon being his maternal grandfather's last name)
>Supposedly, right before he signed his first album contract, he changed
>the spelling to "Dylan" because people were always misspelling Dillon and
>leaving off one of the "i's" He figured if people were going to spell it
>Bob "Dilon", it looked better with a "y" than an "i"
>
>The story that he changed his name in honor of Dylan Thomas was a total
>myth probably fabricated by the press.
I was refering to an alias, "Robert Milkwood Thomas,"
that Dylan recorded under. Zimmerman is his birth
name. I thought he took his name from Marshall Matt
Dillon from Gunsmoke. {;^> Just around the time
he ran away from home and was travelling with the
circus. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:10:41 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: read kerouac
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/indeterminacy/names.html
> http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/indeterminacy/s.cgi?174
Sorry Rinaldo but don't you mean read John Cage?
That texts is one of the indeterminacies written by Cage.
daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:08:23 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: speaking of music
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At the risk of seeming bragadocious I had the privlige of seeing Mr. Bob Dylan
last Thursday and Friday nights at the 9:30 Club in Washington, DC. It was a
real treat to see Dylan at a "small" 1,000 person capacity club. It was fun
to see the ol' sage having fun himself as he actually smiled several times.
He is in great form these days - like always he looks to me like he could put
on 10 pounds or so - but he's a long, long way from knockin' on heavens door!
Each night he played for a solid two hours - mixing old and new. Songs like
Maggies Farm, Rainy Day Woman, Highway 61, Mr. Tamborine Man, It Ain't Me
Babe, etc. are in heavy rotation on his set list (he does use one).
Bob will be honored by President Clinton at the Kennedy Center tomorrow. I
think it will be broadcast on public television sometime in the future (check
listings under "The Kennedy Center Honors").
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:16:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: speaking of music
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At 04:08 PM 12/6/97 EST, Howard Park wrote:
>Bob will be honored by President Clinton at the
>Kennedy Center tomorrow. I think it will be
>broadcast on public television sometime in the future
>(check listings under "The Kennedy Center Honors").
The performance at the Kennedy Center will be recorded
by CBS television and will be broadcast on December 26th
from 9PM to 11PM. I believe Dylan will not be performing.
But his award will be taped.
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:21:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
In-Reply-To: <89310064.3489984f@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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A good hotel is The Washington Square Hotel on Washington Place, right
near my building. Attatched to it is the restaurant, C3, which is nice
place to eat but not too expensive...
On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Hpark4 wrote:
> I stayed at the Chelsea once. The room was a suite and it was economical (for
> New York City) because I was with four others. I don't think its very
> practical to stay there if you're alone. The location is good too - New York
> really has very few hotels near Grenwhich Village. It's funky - its fun to
> waunder the halls. The lobby is great - lots of interesting artwork. It sure
> beats a Holiday Inn!
>
> Howard
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:52:21 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: LTICS "portrayal of allen"??????
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> Subject:
> Re: the last time ....
> Date:
> Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:31:55 -0500
> From:
> "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
>
>
> At 09:02 PM 12/5/97 -0600, cathy wrote:
>
> >I don't remember a "portrayal of allen" in the movie.
> >did i miss that part completely?
>
> I believe he was in the football scene?
>
> Mike
I'm convinced thoroughly that I heard that character called by a
different name. Did Cassady and ginsberg know each other at the time of
the composition of the "cherry mary" letter?????
If I have to, i will rent the movie again just to ascertain whether that
was, or was not, supposed to be allen.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:53:44 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: read kerouac
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-06 12:09:28 EST, you write:
<< http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/indeterminacy/names.html
http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/~eddietwo/indeterminacy/s.cgi?174 >>
what are these web pages?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:01:30 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Dylan
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Mike:
You wrote:
> Just around the time
> he ran away from home and was travelling with the
> circus. . .
>
I thought he was traveling with a carnival down in Texas, working swap
meets. Then his ride broke down in Mobile. He had to hitch all the way
up Highway 61 to get back home. And when he was in Missouri, they
wouldn't let him be. It seems that sometime around then he tried the
North Country but finally followed Woody to New York. Lived at the
Chelsea Hotel, and down on Elizabeth Street, maybe 4th for a while.
No, I am positive about that. Anyway, last I heard, he was playing a
show in Miami!
Could be the same Dillion that was in the Circus. Could be. I heard he
was spotted in Lowell once, with Dr. Sax in the band. But that was a
rumor. And it was probably planted in the press. Rinaldo, have you
ever seen him in Italy? I heard he traveled there under the name of
Gray! With a widow. But, me I'm still on the road, headed for another
joint.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 18:36:04 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan
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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Mike:
>
> You wrote:
>
> > Just around the time
> > he ran away from home and was travelling with the
> > circus. .
but finally followed Woody to New York.
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
according to newspaper reports, he went to new york to see woody the day
i was born .... (not making that up <grin>)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:13:13 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: Re: Kerouac and The Fifties
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Did anyone see the piece on Jack on the History channel Friday night? I missed
it. Can you fill me in or wasn't it worth watching?
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Miller [SMTP:richard@EMF.NET]
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 8:50 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Kerouac and The Fifties
The History Channel is doing a 7 hr special on The Fifties and on Friday
night (12/5) they examine the impact of Jack Kerouac and Elvis Presley.So
far its been pretty well done.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:02:59 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Just a little bad news
In-Reply-To: <762c3cb0.3488ef21@aol.com>
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He was a New Age artist according to obits I read,
innovated by playing guitar strings at the top of
the kneck and the bottom at the same time.
Mike Rice
At 01:22 AM 12/6/97 EST, you wrote:
>For people who didn't know, Micheal Hedges, guitarist extraordinaire, passed
>on this past week. He was a guitarist best known for being a Windham Hill
>Records, but really, his live shows (and I only saw two) were incredible. He
>was one of those pure whimsical souls that this planet just doen't have
enough
>of. He was 43 and drove his car off the road in Calif, north of San Fran. He
>does have some great songs as well as great covers. I'm sad to say I only
have
>one record by him and one Windham Hill compilation that includes him. I
always
>thought that I would catch up to him (go see his shows) when I have a little
>more money. Now it won't help no matter how much money I have.
>
>so it goes, but go do your thing,
>Attila
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:49:41 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Harry Smith article
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Jens,
A bit late I know, but thanks for going to the trouble of putting
the Folk Roots article about Harry Smith at your site. I've had the reissue
for about ten days now after first spending a summer with the anthology in
1962 or '63. Any of you who have followed up on Jens suggestion should.
Harry Smith was among other things responsible for making many, many
recordings of Ginsberg reading - lived with him for about a year. A truly
fascinating multi-dimesional character. And the Anthology is wonderful
although maybe not to everybody's taste....race and hillbilly recordings
from the years 1927 to 1932 more or less.
Thanks Jens.
Antoine
Jens Harry Smith article page.....
http://home1.inet.tele.dk/jenskoch/harry1.htm
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:00:16 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: hillbilly journals Re: Harry Smith article
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Antoine Maloney wrote:
> And the Anthology is wonderful
> although maybe not to everybody's taste....race and hillbilly recordings
>
oh yeah i remember making those recordings <grin>....funny this note
about hillbilly recordings came to my computer just moments after i'd
accidentally found an old journal notebook with my tales of driving deep
back into my maternal roots in the hill country of Kentucky. Muses Mill
to be exact. In my more psychotic moments over the years the towns name
has taken on meaning all out of proportion to sensibility. Listening to
an old hillbilly singer right now singing mothers and fathers throughout
the land don't criticize what you can't understand and i guess that goes
for non-hillbilly's understanding those of us with some hillbilly genes
and blood running through our systems. (do you have hillbilly blood
Antoine?)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:23:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Mike Rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: test
Comments: To: henkel@wmich.edu
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test
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 21:38:26 -0800
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From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: LTICS "portrayal of allen"??????
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>> Subject:
>> Re: the last time ....
>> Date:
>> Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:31:55 -0500
>> From:
>> "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
>>
>>
>> At 09:02 PM 12/5/97 -0600, cathy wrote:
>>
>> >I don't remember a "portrayal of allen" in the movie.
>> >did i miss that part completely?
>>
>> I believe he was in the football scene?
>>
>> Mike
>
>
>
>I'm convinced thoroughly that I heard that character called by a
>different name. Did Cassady and ginsberg know each other at the time of
>the composition of the "cherry mary" letter?????
>
That character (whatever the name was) was clearly based on Ginsberg. The
character was not in the story in the book.
I think this invented character is symptomatic of the problems of the movie
and maoviemaker in general that made it a not so good movie (although I did
not have the strong negative reaction against it others seem to have had--I
think it was almost a good movie.)
Other similar inventions are also symptomatic including the difference
where in the movie near the end Cassady's friend comes out of the bar and
begs him and cajoles Neal to go in and have a drink. This is quite
different than in the book where cassady writes he walked by the bar and
saw his friend inside and decided to go in and have a drink. No cajoling
in the book.
etc...
>If I have to, i will rent the movie again just to ascertain whether that
>was, or was not, supposed to be allen.
>
>cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:33:05 -0500
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From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: hillbilly journals Re: Harry Smith article
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do you have hillbilly blood Antoine?
...asked david rhaesa
Only in so far that there was/is a strong Irish component in them
thar hills! The music has a definite hold on me despite being a Brooklyn boy
living in Quebec...I slipped under the spell of Doc Watson, the New Lost
City Ramblers, Hazel Dickens swirled together with all early blues.
Gotta love anything on a fiddle, dulcimer, autoharp, bo diddly or
slide guitar!
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:25:37 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: hillbilly journals Re: Harry Smith article
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At 11:00 PM 12/6/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>Listening to an old hillbilly singer right now
>singing mothers and fathers throughout
>the land don't criticize what you can't understand
>and i guess that goes for non-hillbilly's understanding
>those of us with some hillbilly genes and blood running
>through our systems.
Hmm, 4:15 am and too much Sleeman's Dark in me
(fell off the wagon two wks ago at the Horseshoe).
Tool is rifling off in the background (after Dr. Disc xmas
party). Are Tool hillbilly's? {;^> Kinda the same thing -
"Fuck you buddy!!" A little cynical tonight, not much
different than the day, I guess. . .
Michel Gateaupain
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:37:30 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Dylan
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At 07:01 PM 12/6/97 -0500, Bentz wrote:
>I thought he was traveling with a carnival down in
>Texas, working swap meets. Then his ride broke down
>in Mobile. He had to hitch all the way up Highway 61
>to get back home. And when he was in Missouri, they
>wouldn't let him be. It seems that sometime around
>then he tried the North Country but finally followed Woody
>to New York. Lived at the Chelsea Hotel, and down on
>Elizabeth Street, maybe 4th for a while.
>No, I am positive about that. Anyway, last I heard, he was
>playing a show in Miami!
>
>Could be the same Dillion that was in the Circus. Could
>be. I heard he was spotted in Lowell once, with Dr. Sax
>in the band. But that was a rumor. And it was probably
>planted in the press. Rinaldo, have you ever seen him
>in Italy? I heard he traveled there under the name of
>Gray! With a widow. But, me I'm still on the road, headed
>for another joint.
Reminds me of a personal ad I once saw:
"do people tell you to your
face youve changed? do you
feel offended? are you seeking
companionship? are you plump?
4 ft. 5? if you fit & are
a full blooded alcoholic
catholic, please call
UH2-6969
ask for Oompa"
>From _Tarantula_ by Bob Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 11:22:56 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Dylan
In-Reply-To: <3489E759.4DC97EB2@scsn.net>
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caro Bentz, (good sunday) buona domenica!,
non so se questo e' di aiuto a te (i dunno if this helps you)
e gli amici (and to the friends) but the connection is (ma il
collegamento e')
Zimmerman->Zimbo->Dillion->Dylan.
che Bob Dylan abbia cambiato nome in onore di
Dylan Thomas non sembra accertato (it seems that Bob Dylan don't
choose his name as a tribute to english poet Dylan Thomas).
by the good office of the catholic culture bob dylan 'll be
an icon in the x-mas crib (cre'che), and it's not a bad news...
in the early 70s' i tried to see the Wings in San Marco Square
but the hugeness of people stop the trafic on the bridge...
in 1989 the Pink Floyd great performace... then the venice town
council stopped the rock meeting in Venice cuz they scared
by the electronic sound shattering the medieval monuments as
in a futuristic/post-modernist/dream/nightmare...
p.s. Bob Dylan says tha 'On the Road' "changed my life
like everyone else's"
cari saluti (best wishes) da
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:55:27 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
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From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Dylan
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> caro Bentz, (good sunday) buona domenica!,
>
> non so se questo e' di aiuto a te (i dunno if this helps you)
> e gli amici (and to the friends) but the connection is (ma il
> collegamento e')
> Zimmerman->Zimbo->Dillion->Dylan.
> che Bob Dylan abbia cambiato nome in onore di
> Dylan Thomas non sembra accertato (it seems that Bob Dylan don't
> choose his name as a tribute to english poet Dylan Thomas).
>
> by the good office of the catholic culture bob dylan 'll be
> an icon in the x-mas crib (cre'che), and it's not a bad news...
>
> in the early 70s' i tried to see the Wings in San Marco Square
> but the hugeness of people stop the trafic on the bridge...
> in 1989 the Pink Floyd great performace... then the venice town
> council stopped the rock meeting in Venice cuz they scared
> by the electronic sound shattering the medieval monuments as
> in a futuristic/post-modernist/dream/nightmare...
>
> p.s. Bob Dylan says tha 'On the Road' "changed my life
> like everyone else's"
>
> cari saluti (best wishes) da
>
> Rinaldo.
CARO RINALDO: Please, can you tell me what is the source of that
statement: "Bob Dylan says that OTR changed my life like everyone
else's." (To which I might also add Bob Dylan changed MY life like
everyone else's.) Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, the Beatles, Bob
Dylan! Quite a 1-2-3-4 punch! --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 06:57:34 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: speaking of music
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green with envy but glad to hear he is as strong as his latest CD
last time i saw him was as opener for grateful dead in Higate, vermont - with
hot
guitar player jo jo jackson, i believe was the name. hot and heavy full metal
assault on crowd of 100,000 or so --totally freaked out by massive crowd and
whisked away in limo or helicopter or similar such exit. but excellent show.
1,000 folk two nights in a row, jealous jealous jealous
mc
Hpark4 wrote:
> At the risk of seeming bragadocious I had the privlige of seeing Mr. Bob Dylan
> last Thursday and Friday nights at the 9:30 Club in Washington, DC. It was a
> real treat to see Dylan at a "small" 1,000 person capacity club. It was fun
> to see the ol' sage having fun himself as he actually smiled several times.
> He is in great form these days - like always he looks to me like he could put
> on 10 pounds or so - but he's a long, long way from knockin' on heavens door!
> Each night he played for a solid two hours - mixing old and new. Songs like
> Maggies Farm, Rainy Day Woman, Highway 61, Mr. Tamborine Man, It Ain't Me
> Babe, etc. are in heavy rotation on his set list (he does use one).
>
> Bob will be honored by President Clinton at the Kennedy Center tomorrow. I
> think it will be broadcast on public television sometime in the future (check
> listings under "The Kennedy Center Honors").
>
> Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:22:37 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: test
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you passed!
Mike Rice wrote:
> test
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 08:17:40 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Naropa Institute
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Hey- if any members have an address or phone number for the Naropa Institute
out in I belive Boulder,CO i would be most grateful. Been trying to track them
down. Thanks
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:23:23 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Naropa Institute
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GTL1951 wrote:
>
> Hey- if any members have an address or phone number for the Naropa Institute
> out in I belive Boulder,CO i would be most grateful. Been trying to track them
> down. Thanks
> Gene
its on arapahoe in boulder. i found in by doing a web search when i
wandered through a few months back
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 07:32:55 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: hillbilly journals Re: Harry Smith article
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 11:00 PM 12/6/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>
> >Listening to an old hillbilly singer right now
> >singing mothers and fathers throughout
> >the land don't criticize what you can't understand
> >and i guess that goes for non-hillbilly's understanding
> >those of us with some hillbilly genes and blood running
> >through our systems.
>
> Hmm, 4:15 am and too much Sleeman's Dark in me
> (fell off the wagon two wks ago at the Horseshoe).
> Tool is rifling off in the background (after Dr. Disc xmas
> party). Are Tool hillbilly's? {;^> Kinda the same thing -
> "Fuck you buddy!!" A little cynical tonight, not much
> different than the day, I guess. . .
>
> Michel Gateaupain
cynical's fine by me
someday we'll compare wagon's and whatnot maybe
hillbilly's anything ya want it to be really
wonderful journey i had back into the hills those years ago
gonna pack up my cynicism and head to the filling station
to see what day it is and read a little
of Dr. Sax.
I'm playing the Count for halloween this January.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:54:51 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dylan
In-Reply-To: <348A8EAE.7FAA@bigmagic.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>>
>> p.s. Bob Dylan says tha 'On the Road' "changed my life
>> like everyone else's"
>>
>> cari saluti (best wishes) da
>>
>> Rinaldo.
>CARO RINALDO:
>Please, can you tell me what is the source of that
>statement: "Bob Dylan says that OTR changed my life like everyone
>else's." (To which I might also add Bob Dylan changed MY life like
>everyone else's.) Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, the Beatles, Bob
>Dylan! Quite a 1-2-3-4 punch! --Al Aronowitz
>--
>***************************************
>Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
Al,
I can't help you with your Q to Renaldol, but you should know that a fellow
(whose name I did not get) was commenting on Bob Dylan on National Public
Radio this Sunday morning and quoting from material you had written about
Dylan.
I have my radio set to catch the early morning news block on NPR. I doze,
but wake when something is said that rings a bell. Your name did. I caught
the end, but not the name of the speaker. Unable to get through to NPR for
a name, but I'll E-mail them and ask. Might get a reply.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:01:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Naropa Institute
In-Reply-To: <348AA34B.7825@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>GTL1951 wrote:
>>
>> Hey- if any members have an address or phone number for the Naropa Institute
>> out in I belive Boulder,CO i would be most grateful. Been trying to
>>track them
>> down. Thanks
>> Gene
>
>its on arapahoe in boulder. i found in by doing a web search when i
>wandered through a few months back
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
David,
Wondering about NAROPA and NEUROPA. Are you familiar with both? Are they
similar as far as curiculum is cponcerned?
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 13:35:16 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Chelsea Hotel
In-Reply-To: <199712061732.AA02754@world.std.com>
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>This may sound like a silly question,but here goes anyways...
>
>Have any of you ever stayed at the Chelsea?
Stayed there in he mid 70s. Prices, if my memory serves me, were less than
$30. Back then that was my limit for a room. Bit on the shabby side, but
cheap and central.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
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Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:57:33 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Naropa Institute
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In a message dated 97-12-07 08:35:55 EST, you write:
<< Hey- if any members have an address or phone number for the Naropa
Institute
out in I belive Boulder,CO i would be most grateful. Been trying to track
them
down. Thanks
Gene >>
Naropa Institute
2130 Arapahoe Avenue
Boulder, Colorado
08302-6697
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:57:36 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Naropa Institute
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:17 AM 12/7/97 EST, Gene wrote:
>Hey- if any members have an address or phone
>number for the Naropa Institute out in I belive
>Boulder,CO i would be most grateful. Been trying to
>track them down. Thanks
Try:
http://www.naropa.edu/
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:22:24 EST
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From: Ddrooy <Ddrooy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Dylan
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In a message dated 97-12-07 14:00:50 EST, jo grant wrote:
<<
I have my radio set to catch the early morning news block on NPR. I doze,
but wake when something is said that rings a bell. >>
I can't help but find this curious, the fact that you listen to NPR,
considering the fact that you have a most damning condemnation of their
coverage of someone you support at your website.
I sure wouldn't support a news source with my listenership if I found it so
repressive and conspiratorial. I'd boycott 'em.
Maybe this an example of yin and yang and I just don't get it?
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:03:33 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: dylan
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"dear tom
have i ever told you that i
think your name ought to be
bill. it doesn't really matter
of course, but you know, i like
to be comfortable around people.
how is margy? or martha? or
whatever the hell her name is?
listen: when you arrive & you
hear somebody yelling "willy" it'll
be me that's who. . . so c'mon. there'll
be a car and party waiting. it'll
be very easy to single me out, so
dont say you didnt know I was there.
gratefully
truman peyote"
>from _Tarantula_ by Bob Dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 15:08:08 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Dylan
In-Reply-To: <b43319e2.348b0582@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>In a message dated 97-12-07 14:00:50 EST, jo grant wrote:
>
><<
> I have my radio set to catch the early morning news block on NPR. I doze,
> but wake when something is said that rings a bell. >>
>
>I can't help but find this curious, the fact that you listen to NPR,
>considering the fact that you have a most damning condemnation of their
>coverage of someone you support at your website.
>
>I sure wouldn't support a news source with my listenership if I found it so
>repressive and conspiratorial. I'd boycott 'em.
>
>Maybe this an example of yin and yang and I just don't get it?
De Rooy,
I think you just don't get it.
I've got serious problems with every network, most politicians, every
industry--auto, power and light, food processors, etc. I think the whole
Xmas thing is BS, but we have a tree, decorate, buy gifts for our children
and friends.
I REALLY have problems with NPR, but my defense against NPR, and all of the
above, (who hid behind a multitude of masks) is not to become a Maginot
Line. I don't like having the "news" stacked selectively. They all do it.
NPR less than the rest.
Maybe I don't get it either.
The other day I approached a group of people demonstrating in front of a
store that sold furs. I pointed out to them that I thought it odd they were
opposed to people selling furs but were wearing leather shoes. One of them
said, "There's a big difference between shoes and furs."
Like I said, "Maybe I don't get it either."
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
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=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:16:10 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: dylan and art objext
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Ddrooy wrote:
a news source with my listenership if I found it so
> repressive and conspiratorial. I'd boycott 'em.
>
> Maybe this an example of yin and yang and I just don't get it?
hi
while it is somewhat interesting to get such a example of tone in
language, this may be one of the interesting but not exactly beat that
might be backchanneled. Unless of course it isn't a question for the
individual but a political stance. Sometime i don't get politics as
immediately as others. If you wish to explain any thing political to me
on this, please feel free to backchannel me.
I have been creating an art objext, interpreting the mighty and strong
political arguments that have gotten through to me. Oh by the way my
web page is going to become better, i hope. So two weeks obit on the
present version.
http://www.sunflower.com/~pelliott/pictures.html
It is now a crude rough layout of a scattering of photos. I plan to
change it to scattered photos and scanned pages of the city moon, This
material is copyrighted to Roger Martin and David Ohle.
I have so much enjoyed revisiting the various websites that this list
has bestowed on me. I just took a brief trip around the world. I truely
wish to thank you all.
my address ( for those servers who are not as easily accesssed)
pelliott@sunflower.com
p
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:51:12 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Naropa Institute
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Thank you very much!
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:04:35 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Harry Smith article
I got to know Harry Smith fairly well when he was living with Allen G. In the
morning I would sit at Allen's kitchen table and catalog his latest batch of
cassette and video recordings. Sooner or later, Harry would stumble to the
table and fix himself a bowl of cornflakes and eat them, the milk dribbling
down his chin. He was slow to start but usually had some fascinating story
about Charlie Parker or Thelonius Monk. I always wanted to take Harry's picture
but he would never let me, claiming the camera would steal his soul.
getting used to Harry's style of speach took sometime. He was slow to speak and
had long lapeses. This was not helped by Julius Orlovsky, who was staying, I
think, in Peter's apartment next door. Julius was speaking at the time, but
S-l-o-w-l-y, and sometimes Harry and Julius would be in a silent battle trying
to remember the same word at the same time.
I miss Harry, he was a gentle, unassuming, soft spoken genuis.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:18:12 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Back tt the Future II
Comments: To: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.com>, "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>,
Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hey, is there a Back to the Future fan out there who knows whether of
not this is true. If so, it is weird. I mean, I know that I just got
through watching the X-Files and all, but this is really different if it
is true. Kinda cool idea, maybe urban myth?
> << HEY PEOPLE, this is really interesting you must read on, as it is true.
> kinda makes ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
>
>
> If any of you remember the movie "Back to the Future II" you
> will recall that Bif goes to the future and steals a Sports Almanac, where
> in
> turn he goes back to the past to give it to young Bif. As we all know
> Young Bif
> was able to become very wealthy by betting on games where he already knew
> the final score.
>
> In an obscure line you hear young Bif say "Florida is going to
> win the World Series in 1997, yeah right"
>
> This movie came out in 1987, ten years before the Marlins did
> actually win the world series. And what's really weird is that Florida
> didn't
> even have a baseball team in 1987.
>
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:31:13 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Lynn Taylor <tlt0004@JOVE.ACS.UNT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Back tt the Future II
Comments: To: "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>
Comments: cc: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.com>,
Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>
In-Reply-To: <348B66F4.7FDD5749@scsn.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> Hey, is there a Back to the Future fan out there who knows whether of
> not this is true. If so, it is weird. I mean, I know that I just got
> through watching the X-Files and all, but this is really different if it
> is true.
Well we were just discussing this at work and one of the proffessors that
I work for is a big Back to the Future Fan and confirmed that it was true
Makes ya kinda wonder?
Tyson
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:11:54 -0800
Reply-To: MICHAEL_ROGERS@bc.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Rogers <MICHAEL_ROGERS@BC.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: Back tt the Future II
Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@scsn.net>
Comments: cc: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.com>, "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>,
Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Kind of makes the hair on the back of your neck stand on end.
Does anyone know if Bif said anything about whether or not the Vancouver
Canucks would win the Stanley cup in 1998.
Mike
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/michael_rogers/
R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
>
> Hey, is there a Back to the Future fan out there who knows whether of
> not this is true. If so, it is weird. I mean, I know that I just got
> through watching the X-Files and all, but this is really different if it
> is true. Kinda cool idea, maybe urban myth?
>
> > << HEY PEOPLE, this is really interesting you must read on, as it is true.
> > kinda makes ya go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
> >
> >
> > If any of you remember the movie "Back to the Future II" you
> > will recall that Bif goes to the future and steals a Sports Almanac,
where
> > in
> > turn he goes back to the past to give it to young Bif. As we all know
> > Young Bif
> > was able to become very wealthy by betting on games where he already
knew
> > the final score.
> >
> > In an obscure line you hear young Bif say "Florida is going to
> > win the World Series in 1997, yeah right"
> >
> > This movie came out in 1987, ten years before the Marlins did
> > actually win the world series. And what's really weird is that
Florida
> > didn't
> > even have a baseball team in 1987.
> >
>
> --
>
> Peace,
>
> Bentz
> bocelts@scsn.net
> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:07:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Harry Smith article
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Dave,
It was terrific to read your description of sitting talking with
Harry Smith. Wold he ahve known other of the Beats besides Ginsberg - and
even Ginsberg himself - during the '40s and '50s given his involvement with
some of the bebop players? Tell us some more stories!
I'm listening to volume 1-b now....Furry Lewis's great two part
Kassie Jones (Casey Jones); Down on Penny's farm up next....precursor to
Dylan's "Maggie's Farm" after lots of twists and turns.
Thanks Dave.
Antoine
>I got to know Harry Smith fairly well when he was living with Allen G. In the
>morning I would sit at Allen's kitchen table and catalog his latest batch of
>cassette and video recordings. Sooner or later, Harry would stumble to the
>table and fix himself a bowl of cornflakes and eat them, the milk dribbling
>down his chin. He was slow to start but usually had some fascinating story
>about Charlie Parker or Thelonius Monk. I always wanted to take Harry's picture
>but he would never let me, claiming the camera would steal his soul.
>
>getting used to Harry's style of speach took sometime. He was slow to speak and
>had long lapeses. This was not helped by Julius Orlovsky, who was staying, I
>think, in Peter's apartment next door. Julius was speaking at the time, but
>S-l-o-w-l-y, and sometimes Harry and Julius would be in a silent battle trying
>to remember the same word at the same time.
>
>I miss Harry, he was a gentle, unassuming, soft spoken genuis.
>
>Dave B.
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:36:12 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Colin Hartridge <colinh@WIMSEY.COM>
Subject: Re: Back to the Future II (no Jimi)
Comments: To: MICHAEL_ROGERS@bc.sympatico.ca, "R. Bentz Kirby"
<bocelts@scsn.net>
Comments: cc: Hey Joe <hey-joe@gartholamew.com>, "jjw-l@io.com" <jjw-l@io.com>,
Johnny Winter <jwinter@sicel-home-2-19.urbanet.ch>
In-Reply-To: <348B738A.3D4C@bc.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 8:11 PM -0800 12/7/97, Michael Rogers wrote:
>Does anyone know if Bif said anything about whether or not the Vancouver
>Canucks would win the Stanley cup in 1998.
Now they've got Keenan as coach, anything's possible. Messy, eh? (in-joke
there)
Keep on rockin',
Colin
NP: MUTANT MONSTER BEACH PARTY -- "Do the Clam" / Hodge Podge Barrage From
Japan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colin Hartridge (Captain Maniac) | Vancouver, B.C. Canada
colinh@wimsey.com | "Past the outskirts of infinity"
_________________________________________________________________________
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:33:13 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: found a quote (was Re: Dylan)
In-Reply-To: <348A8EAE.7FAA@bigmagic.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06.55 07/12/97 -0500, Al Aronowitz wrote:
>CARO RINALDO: Please, can you tell me what is the source of that
>statement: "Bob Dylan says that OTR changed my life like everyone
>else's." (To which I might also add Bob Dylan changed MY life like
>everyone else's.) Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, the Beatles, Bob
>Dylan! Quite a 1-2-3-4 punch! --Al Aronowitz
>--
>***************************************
>Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
>http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
>
caro Al, buona giornata, (good day)
first source:
i remember the Dylan's OTR proposition was quoted by
poet Ron Whitehead as a tribute to the 40th
anniversary of Jack's masterpiece 1th printed.
by the way
what happened to Ron? why he do not come back
to beat-L he left a year ago?
second source:
Steve Turner's book titled
"Angelheaded Hipster. A life of Jack Kerouac"
have a dedication to Bob Dylan (the quote on the
back of summary page).
i hope this help,
un caro saluto a tutti,
Rinaldo.
* "some real hot things in the Bible"--- jack kerouac *
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:17:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian Peterson <peterson@EZNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison/beat influence
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In Eduardo Lipschutz-Villa's book "Suppport the Revolution", dedicated
to the work of Wallace Berman there is an interview with Michael
McClure. In the interview Michael mentions that he advised Jim to
self-publish his poems as he and Shelley had done and then to give them
to friends to hear their reactions, as Berman had done. McClure believes
he must have shown him some copies of Wallace's "Semina" because the
first secret editions of his poetry, "The Lords" and "The New Creatures"
where published in such a way that they look like Wallace might have
done them.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:57:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Wallace Berman
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Brian,
Regarding the book "Support the Revolution", could you tell me how
much of it deals with Wallace Berman and his art and printing? Are you
reading it or already read it?
Thanks very much.
Antoine
******************
Brian Peterson wrote....
>In Eduardo Lipschutz-Villa's book "Suppport the Revolution", dedicated
>to the work of Wallace Berman there is an interview with Michael
>McClure. In the interview Michael mentions that he advised Jim to
>self-publish his poems as he and Shelley had done and then to give them
>to friends to hear their reactions, as Berman had done. McClure believes
>he must have shown him some copies of Wallace's "Semina" because the
>first secret editions of his poetry, "The Lords" and "The New Creatures"
>where published in such a way that they look like Wallace might have
>done them.
>Brian
>
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 12:54:19 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Harry Smith article
I forgot to mention that Harry Smith is mentioned in the new Greil Marcus book,
INVISIBLE REPUBLIC (I think that's the title). Though I have not read it, I
have heard good things about it. BTW the book focuses mostly on Dylan and the
band, it will really make you want to listen to the Basement Tapes again, or
for the first time, depending (again, so I'm told).
I've liked most of Marcus' other books though his writing style takes a little
getting used to. Sorry if this has been brought up already, I sometimes lose
chunks of my e-mail due to this wacky vax system at work which fritzs out
everytime a squirrel jumps on the power lines.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:33:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Brian Peterson <peterson@EZNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Wallace Berman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Antoine ,
The book "Support the Revolution" deals entirely with Wallace and his
art-all 181 pages and approx. 200 illustrations. I picked up my copy at
The Whitney Museum during the Beat Art Exhibition they had a few years
ago. Yes, I've read it-several times, Wallace is one of my favorite
artists. The book is published by the Institute of Contemporary
Art/Amsterdam. Can't remember how much it cost-it doesn't say on the
jacket. There are articles by David Meltzer, Walter Hopps, Charles
Brittin, Christopher Knight, Wallys' son Tosh, and others.
Brian
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 13:50:42 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Wallace Berman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brian Peterson wrote:
>
> Antoine ,
> The book "Support the Revolution" deals entirely with Wallace and his
> art-all 181 pages and approx. 200 illustrations. I picked up my copy at
> The Whitney Museum during the Beat Art Exhibition they had a few years
> ago. Yes, I've read it-several times, Wallace is one of my favorite
> artists. The book is published by the Institute of Contemporary
> Art/Amsterdam. Can't remember how much it cost-it doesn't say on the
> jacket. There are articles by David Meltzer, Walter Hopps, Charles
> Brittin, Christopher Knight, Wallys' son Tosh, and others.
> Brian
Wally Berman was a friend of mine. If I can't buy a copy of the book
about him which you refer to, can I obtain a photocopy? --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:07:37 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Back tt the Future II
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Well we were just discussing this at work and one of the proffessors
>that
>I work for is a big Back to the Future Fan and confirmed that it was
>true
>Makes ya kinda wonder?
>Tyson
oh god! NO!!!! someone with my name!! i though i was safe from
this.... i guess i'll have to make sure my i.d. is known in my
messages...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:04:25 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat fad?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Howard Park wrote:
>
> Fad in the 50's.
>
> Trend in the 60's.
>
> Old news in the 70's.
>
> Rediscovered in the 80's.
>
> Classic in the 90's.
>
> "cannon" in the 00's?
>
> Howard Park
How about if they spelled it "canon?" --Al
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:50:58 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: arugghhhh
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> like being tongue-tied,
> no thing to contribute.
>
> so much to resend to
> too little time
> too many burnt syanpses
> at least for today
>
> marvels appear on my screen
> pierce me to the heart,
> heart demands anesthetic
> wine qualifies
>
> too much wine
> too much beauty
> too much angst
>
> too much alone.
>
> would rather take a dive into the now
> freezing winoosi river
> than admit the above
>
> in 'real life'
> how can it be so possible
> here,
>
> perhaps,
> because this is my
> well lighted place
> where monsters can roam
> and others recongize
> them for what the are:
> name
> catogorize
>
> takes the sting
> the fear away
> by the simple
> naming of the fears.
>
> sorry all. it's a bad day
> this is the best i could
> do to explain the pit in
> which i find myself.
>
> brandon, you write yr own poem
> for yr own love
> that is what is most imp0rtant
> about the wheel barrow in the rain.
>
> that it is yours, has meaning, and
> transcends the gap between
> me and you
> you and she
> us and all humanity.
>
> mc
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:47:45 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: arugghhhh
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> > like being tongue-tied,
> > no thing to contribute.
> >
> > so much to resend to
> > too little time
> > too many burnt syanpses
> > at least for today
> >
> > marvels appear on my screen
> > pierce me to the heart,
> > heart demands anesthetic
> > wine qualifies
> >
> > too much wine
> > too much beauty
> > too much angst
> >
> > too much alone.
> >
> > would rather take a dive into the now
> > freezing winoosi river
> > than admit the above
> >
> > in 'real life'
> > how can it be so possible
> > here,
> >
> > perhaps,
> > because this is my
> > well lighted place
> > where monsters can roam
> > and others recongize
> > them for what the are:
> > name
> > catogorize
> >
> > takes the sting
> > the fear away
> > by the simple
> > naming of the fears.
> >
> > sorry all. it's a bad day
> > this is the best i could
> > do to explain the pit in
> > which i find myself.
> >
> > brandon, you write yr own poem
> > for yr own love
> > that is what is most imp0rtant
> > about the wheel barrow in the rain.
> >
> > that it is yours, has meaning, and
> > transcends the gap between
> > me and you
> > you and she
> > us and all humanity.
> >
> > mc
so glad to read the wonderful words that remind me everyone has days
like that. hope yours ain't too deep a drop. we'll all catch ya when
you're falling.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:30:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: long lost beat
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
hello friends,
just wanted to say hi and i'm back. i needed some time off for reflection,
but i missed you all so much. so, i decided to dive back in. a quick hello to
marie, david, sherri, leon and all the rest. i'm happy to be back. can't wait
to hear the latest threads. take care.
~~Marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:00:32 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Laurie Hutchinson <laurel555@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Japhy Rhyder
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on Japhy Ryder (SP?) in the
Dharma Bums. I've read zillions of reviews and criticisms of
Kerouac's "major" works, but I've never run across any discussion of
him. He's always been one of my favorites...Laurel
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:14:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Kaddish
In-Reply-To: <19971208230032.1235.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Today, I bought a very old copy of Kaddish from those guys that sell books
in front of Bobst Library on Washington Square South. I was very happy but
also bummed that I couldnt also buy Dharma Bums, which was also being sold
and then I realized that I already have Dharma Bums, so I wasnt bummed
anymore! :)
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:29:26 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Japhy Rhyder
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Hey- what can you say about Gary Snyder(Japhy Ryder)? He is probably one of
the most brilliant minds in a living being today.
GT
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:49:42 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kaddish
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Nancy- Kaddish is such an amazing poem. I cant believe I hated it when I first
tried to read it at 17- read it two months ago and flipped!
GT
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Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:10:52 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kaddish
In-Reply-To: <92417401.348c9fb6@aol.com>
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Ive never read the whole thing through before because its just too sad for
me, not the actual poem itself but the thought of losing my mother, to
whom I am extremely attached, makes me very very sad.
~Nancy
On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, GTL1951 wrote:
> Nancy- Kaddish is such an amazing poem. I cant believe I hated it when I first
> tried to read it at 17- read it two months ago and flipped!
> GT
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:20:05 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Japhy Rhyder
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I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on Japhy Ryder (SP?) in the
>Dharma Bums. I've read zillions of reviews and criticisms of
>Kerouac's "major" works, but I've never run across any discussion of
>him. He's always been one of my favorites...Laurel
hey jive cat, Japhy be Gary Snyder...
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:25:01 EST
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From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison/beat influence
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didn't jim also say in an interview before he believed in a long prolonged
absence of the sences to reach the unknown (or somthing like that, my memory
isn't too good at doing it's job) and didn't ginsberg or lucien carr say
that first?
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:34:52 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: road advice SF
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>so glad to read the wonderful words that remind me everyone has days
>like that. hope yours ain't too deep a drop. we'll all catch ya when
>you're falling.
speaking of being caught while falling, I think I've settled on
the decision to abandon my current lifestyle which i am utterly sick of
and take to the road out west, being a middle class college student is
no place for me or my writing, and so i ask anyone on the west coast to
offer any info they can on living in the bay area... any place in
particular out there i should hit as soon as i arrive? i'm talking
survival now, not tourism, if you can help me keep the beat alive and
real in our time when everything is against it, offer your wisdom and
advice. it seems san francisco is a good place to start. anyone wanna
join me? Anyone live in SF that has great firsthand knowledge of where
to live cheaply? any help would be appreciated.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:04:36 -0800
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From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Kaddish
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After three months and one day of intense research and long hours of
work, I've finally finished my Allen Ginsberg anthology. Yahoo!!
Special thanks to Levi Asher and Al Aronowitz for having such great
information about AG on the web. Their sites were bookmarked and
referred to quite often during my many hours of research.
I did some research about Kaddish for my anthology, since my thesis
was illustrating how Ginsberg was a robust lover, a wise teacher, and
an inquisitive mortal questioning death 'round every turn. I learned a
lot about the state of mind AG was in when he wrote Kaddish. He wrote
it in two days straight, under the influence of amphetamine injections
and morphine. He used the drugs so that he could approach the whole
topic from a more metaphysical point of view.
While Kaddish is not my favorite AG poem, I do believe it is one of
the greatest epic-length poems of this century.
During my research, I also came across a great AG quote in a book
called "Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation" (ed. Carole
Tonkinson; Riverhead Books, 1995-great book!), from a lecture called
"First Thought, Best Thought," which he gave at Naropa Institute in
1974:
"So really you have to make a resolution just to write for yourself,
in the sense of no bullshit to impress others, not writing poetry to
impress yourself, but just writing what your self is saying."
Ginsberg offers advice to budding writers such as myself from beyond
the grave...gives you something to think about.
Maggie
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:35:21 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
> >so glad to read the wonderful words that remind me everyone has days
> >like that. hope yours ain't too deep a drop. we'll all catch ya when
> >you're falling.
>
> speaking of being caught while falling, I think I've settled on
> the decision to abandon my current lifestyle which i am utterly sick of
> and take to the road out west, being a middle class college student is
> no place for me or my writing, and so i ask anyone on the west coast to
> offer any info they can on living in the bay area... any place in
> particular out there i should hit as soon as i arrive? i'm talking
> survival now, not tourism, if you can help me keep the beat alive and
> real in our time when everything is against it, offer your wisdom and
> advice. it seems san francisco is a good place to start. anyone wanna
> join me? Anyone live in SF that has great firsthand knowledge of where
> to live cheaply? any help would be appreciated.
opportunities to be in school are a mixture of time and space. soemtimes
it is boring and tedious but my advice, stay in school, maybe take more
hours, finish.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:55:19 +0800
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From: Yan Feng <yfeng@PUBLIC1.TPT.TJ.CN>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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----------
Tyson Ouellette Wrote:
>
> >so glad to read the wonderful words that remind me everyone has days
> >like that. hope yours ain't too deep a drop. we'll all catch ya when
> >you're falling.
>
> speaking of being caught while falling, I think I've settled on
> the decision to abandon my current lifestyle which i am utterly sick of
> and take to the road out west, being a middle class college student is
> no place for me or my writing, and so i ask anyone on the west coast to
> offer any info they can on living in the bay area... any place in
> particular out there i should hit as soon as i arrive? i'm talking
> survival now, not tourism, if you can help me keep the beat alive and
> real in our time when everything is against it, offer your wisdom and
> advice. it seems san francisco is a good place to start. anyone wanna
> join me? Anyone live in SF that has great firsthand knowledge of where
> to live cheaply? any help would be appreciated.
>
Tyson, I am in simliar state as yours. But I can't decide to abandon all.
We are just so young that we stay in college.
We are just too young to stay in college.
Good luck to you.
Yan
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:26:59 EST
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From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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Hey man - Sounds like it's hit you, the great inevitable truth of being a
writer (as I take it you are)...you aint gonna git no inspiration in school,
matter of fact none of your great writing will be done in school (a-la Keats,
Shelley, Steinbeck, even Kerouac). Take me, I hit the books out in Palo Alto
CA but born and raised in NYC, am a poet but had to drop school for three
months to push the pen in any sort of a meaningful way. I'm goin back, but
I'm damn glad I got away from the sonumbitch they call college for a while
anyway.
Go West, bro, it rocks out there. Try the Tenderloin for living
cheap...they'll tell you it's dangerous but it's nothing to sweat, nothing too
terrible. Or try your hand at Berkeley, maybe sublet a studio out there (hell
them's my plans for the end of the month). I managed to survive for four
months in Berkeley with just a few dollars and a couple local friends, also
wrote mad mouthfuls of poetry...the Bay Area is great for the artist.
And maybe hit school again in a year, when you're twice the man and ten times
the writer as anyone on campus.
Screw the machine, don't think twice just head out there.
Immortal goat,
ring your good bell.
With God's ear loaned
I eavesdrop near.
Ring! bright crier,
the Vast to hear.
Gregory Corso, the Herald
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:32:19 EST
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From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison/beat influence
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I think Rimbaud said that stuff about absence from the senses first.
AC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:11:25 EST
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From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison/beat influence
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In a message dated 97-12-09 03:07:58 EST, you write:
<<
I think Rimbaud said that stuff about absence from the senses first.
AC
>>
And I do believe our man Arthur got his idea about "prolonged derangement of
the senses" from one William Blake, if memory serves...
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:39:33 EST
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From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Take me to the Chelsea
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In a message dated 97-12-07 00:08:35 EST, you write:
<<
Have any of you ever stayed at the Chelsea?
>>
Actually I have, and I think it was around 150 bucks a night (I think it
depends on whether they like you or not) but it was great. There is definitely
an ambience there. I was there during one of the Kerouac events at New York
University, so I felt a double thrill. It was neat going to listen to the
conference, and then going back to the Chelsea to hang out. Its worth it just
to sit in the lobby and watch the tide come in and out. The people at the
front desk have been there along time and if inclined might tell you a story.
They do have newspaper clipping on the wall that talks about the history as
well. The neighborhood is interesting as well.
check it out and enjoy,
Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 04:39:33 EST
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From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Looking for articles on Kerouac for DHARMA beat
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Hello,
DHARMA beat, a Jack Kerouac newszine, is looking for articles about Kerouac
and related. Next issue is due out in March. If you have an article that you
would be of interest, please contact me with details GYENIS@aol.com
To review what was in previous issues, go to
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/backissues.html">
http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/backissues.html</A>
or DHARMA beat's home page at
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html">
http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/dharmabeat.html</A>
or a page of Kerouac and beat links at
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/links.html">
http://members.aol.com/kerouaczin/links.html</A>
thanks and enjoy, Attila
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:20:48 +1000
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From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: zazu peels
In-Reply-To: <199712060331.WAA06318@ionline.net>
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'listen to this bit..........' - jimi hendrix
while majordomos shine their caps)
rome duskens statues yawn
withered cats are at it
noiseless between the bones
of noseless martyrs
in caves where vatsayana
out of flashbulbs
holds his scented breath ....
and madmen pardon sins)
eli eli, william burroughs sleeps now
on the cross between two wigless judges,
lama sabacthani ? =
'S.P.Q.R.' the minstrels sing
and squeeze into his spine =
a full syringe of vinegar =
'wave to the grave while william bleeds,
nothing goes round but rosary beads
and all rogues need to roam'
minerva sets her velvet traps)
countrymen i give you here =
three sweet and painted ladies
the women of the roman proverb
your friends and mine let's hear it =
for the bearers of the velvet thigh
and soft machine =
Yiss Yess Yass are come
to weave the night into a thousand
tuneless violins
and tunes her violins)
=A9jjpullicino 1997
-- =
bye for now,
john p
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:09:56 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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>Go West, bro, it rocks out there. Try the Tenderloin for living
>cheap...they'll tell you it's dangerous but it's nothing to sweat,
>nothing too
>terrible. Or try your hand at Berkeley, maybe sublet a studio out
>there (hell
>them's my plans for the end of the month).
thanks, will look into that... also noticed in my research that
lower haight area is a cheap popular place for young folks..
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:19:43 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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>Tyson, I am in simliar state as yours. But I can't decide to abandon
>all.
>We are just so young that we stay in college.
>We are just too young to stay in college.
>Good luck to you.
mmm, i agree.... i guess abandonment isn't an issue for me because
i've longed to do it for a while, escape my material possessions and
live very simply for a while... only way to find out if it's right is
to try it i guess. i was actually contemplating the move about a year
and a half ago... didn't happen. i think it's largely due to the fact
that in 1997 we're predisposed to rooting ourselves in one place, that
security and stability are the creed of modern life. it kills me
really when i talk to so many people that want to do this but don't,
that are so unhappy following the path of the norm..i think it'll take
a cultural change to instill many people with the confidence they need
to take aternatives.. it's scary, thrilling and advnturesome, yes, but
scary when all you've known is a stable life in the norm of society...
complacency is really an epidemic among american college-aged folks...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:28:57 EST
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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In a message dated 97-12-09 01:30:00 EST, you write:
<< Tyson, I am in simliar state as yours. But I can't decide to abandon all.
We are just so young that we stay in college.
We are just too young to stay in college.
Good luck to you.
Yan >>
tyson,
actually, i'm in the same situation. i just dropped school for the semester. i
was looking for some road trips. i'd love to come with you. but i'm torn, i do
agree with patricia. you should be in school sometime. hell, so should i once
i get a grasp on what the heck i'm doing with my life. trust me i know how you
feel. as for writing, its all in the perspective. i think experience and
setting are important, but its all how you look at it. i try to find something
new everyday. its the only way i survive in my suburban town. good luck to
you, man. i wish you the best.
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:05:07 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
This is the title of a column recently published in our school newspaper
here. If anyone needs to be made irrate, here is the URL for it --
http://www.csil.appstate.edu/moron.htm. I'm the webmaster, so that's why
its named moron, because the author is such an incredible one. By late
today, it will have been moved to [http://www.csil.appstate.edu/
archives/97-12-04/moron.htm].
My response to this (too long to be printed as a letter, so run as a guest
column) will be printed today and be at [http://www.csil.appstate.edu/
beat.htm] by later tonight.
Everyone is welcome to reply to both. It doesn't dignify taking up
bandwidth by being posted. The paper's address is at the bottom of each
page (theapp@appstate.edu). I welcome everyone to mail bomb to their
hearts content. Its not a very good article, even without its point of
view; but still a slap in the face to some of the most influential writers
of this century.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:28:30 -0800
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From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
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> complacency is really an epidemic among american college-aged
> folks...
Complacency is an epidemic among american folks. It only gets worse
after college-age. That's probably why you feel a bit alienated. Be
glad that you're not among the complacent. Be glad that you're in
america where you don't have to be like everybody else.
I felt like jumping ship before graduation, but stuck it out. It
did change things a bit. Two years later, I did the trip, the move,
no friends, no job, and have fully enjoyed it. I feel that I was a
little better prepared, but that's probably just an excuse for my own
benefit. Either way, things will work out in your favor, if you want
them too.
Good Luck. Keep us posted, if possible.
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:49:28 EST
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Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 15:26:01 EST
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM>
Subject: Leaving the List
To: beat-l@CUNYVM
New listmembers frequently ask for instructions on how to unsubscribe.
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Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:07:52 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kaddish
In-Reply-To: <19971209040436.2495.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com>
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Maggie,
Is this for publication? If so, go to http://www.bookzen.com and enter the
basic information so I can get it on-line in our Free Book Information
Library.
Sounds like a winner.
j grant
> After three months and one day of intense research and long hours of
>work, I've finally finished my Allen Ginsberg anthology. Yahoo!!
>Special thanks to Levi Asher and Al Aronowitz for having such great
>information about AG on the web. Their sites were bookmarked and
>referred to quite often during my many hours of research.
> I did some research about Kaddish for my anthology, since my thesis
>was illustrating how Ginsberg was a robust lover, a wise teacher, and
>an inquisitive mortal questioning death 'round every turn. I learned a
>lot about the state of mind AG was in when he wrote Kaddish. He wrote
>it in two days straight, under the influence of amphetamine injections
>and morphine. He used the drugs so that he could approach the whole
>topic from a more metaphysical point of view.
> While Kaddish is not my favorite AG poem, I do believe it is one of
>the greatest epic-length poems of this century.
> During my research, I also came across a great AG quote in a book
>called "Big Sky Mind: Buddhism and the Beat Generation" (ed. Carole
>Tonkinson; Riverhead Books, 1995-great book!), from a lecture called
>"First Thought, Best Thought," which he gave at Naropa Institute in
>1974:
> "So really you have to make a resolution just to write for yourself,
>in the sense of no bullshit to impress others, not writing poetry to
>impress yourself, but just writing what your self is saying."
> Ginsberg offers advice to budding writers such as myself from beyond
>the grave...gives you something to think about.
> Maggie
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:07:32 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Stone on Kerouac
Wonder what others might think of Robert Stone's article on Kerouac in last Sun
day's book review....no flames, please. After all, this list prides itself on
reasoned discourse.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:53:39 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 04:07 PM 12/9/97 EST, you wrote:
>Wonder what others might think of Robert Stone's article on Kerouac in last Sun
>day's book review....no flames, please. After all, this list prides itself on
>reasoned discourse.
>
>
What last sunday book review? The NY Times?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:01:30 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
Reply to message from VegasDaddy@AOL.COM of Tue, 09 Dec
>
>Hey man - Sounds like it's hit you, the great inevitable truth of being a
>writer (as I take it you are)...you aint gonna git no inspiration in school,
>matter of fact none of your great writing will be done in school (a-la Keats,
>Shelley, Steinbeck, even Kerouac). Take me, I hit the books out in Palo Alto
>CA but born and raised in NYC, am a poet but had to drop school for three
>months to push the pen in any sort of a meaningful way. I'm goin back, but
>I'm damn glad I got away from the sonumbitch they call college for a while
>anyway.
Funny...I think the best story I ever wrote was inspired by my college
years (I have no other real opinions of it, though, because I don't know
what to _do_ with it now...) If it hadn't been for my college
surroundings I wouldn't have found my inspiration. God knows that cleaning
hotel rooms isn't helping me any with my writing.
But hey...to each their own. Good luck with your decision--(I can't
remember whose dilemma this was in the first place).
Diane.
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:08:48 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:53:39 -0800 from
<gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:53:39 -0800 Timothy K. Gallaher said:
>At 04:07 PM 12/9/97 EST, you wrote:
>>Wonder what others might think of Robert Stone's article on Kerouac in last
>Sun
>>day's book review....no flames, please. After all, this list prides itself on
>>reasoned discourse.
>>
>>
>
>What last sunday book review? The NY Times?
Yes, the New York Times.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:15:54 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:08 PM 12/9/97 EST, you wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:53:39 -0800 Timothy K. Gallaher said:
>>At 04:07 PM 12/9/97 EST, you wrote:
>>>Wonder what others might think of Robert Stone's article on Kerouac in last
>>Sun
>>>day's book review....no flames, please. After all, this list prides
itself on
>>>reasoned discourse.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>What last sunday book review? The NY Times?
>
> Yes, the New York Times.
>
>
Thanks for replying so quick. I found it at their site
url is http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/12/07/reviews/971207.07stonet.html
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:27:27 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
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CTimothy K. Gallaher wrote:
>
> At 05:08 PM 12/9/97 EST, you wrote:
> >On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:53:39 -0800 Timothy K. Gallaher said:
> >>At 04:07 PM 12/9/97 EST, you wrote:
> >>>Wonder what others might think of Robert Stone's article on Kerouac in last
> >>Sun
> >>>day's book review....no flames, please. After all, this list prides
> itself on
> >>>reasoned discourse.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>What last sunday book review? The NY Times?
> >
> > Yes, the New York Times.
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for replying so quick. I found it at their site
>
> url is http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/12/07/reviews/971207.07stonet.html
Can somebody put it on list so I can read it? I gave away my book
section.--Al
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:08:12 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Maggie Gerrity <u2ginsberg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ginsberg Anthology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Jo,
Thanks for your inquiry about my Ginsberg anthology, but, for now,
at least, it's just a massive project for my Honors Composition class.
My prof has suggested that I seek publication, but right now I'm just
glad I have the silly thing finished!!
Maggie
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:28:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
Comments: To: blackj@bigmagic.com
In-Reply-To: <348DC5CF.7186@bigmagic.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Al,
If you extend the number of characters you'll avoid the long-short-long
lines. Or, do as I do and doenload to a word doc.
Hope you're well.
Was unable to find the name of the person comenting on Dylan and mentioning
your columns as source.
j grant
The following is copyrighted by the nEW yORK tIMES. Bringing you "All the
news that's pit to frint."
December 7, 1997
American Dreamers: Melville and Kerouac
By ROBERT STONE
THE BEAT GOES ON
A New York Times retrospective on Jack Kerouac
In the autumn of 1957 I was 19 years old, in the Navy and also
more or less permanently in
the grip of romantic adolescent impulses. That year, I rashly
volunteered to serve with the
last of the Byrd expeditions to the Antarctic continent aboard
the U.S.S. Arneb. The Arneb
would depart New England in December for the bases Adm. Richard
E. Byrd had established at
Little America on McMurdo Sound in Antarctica. It would then
proceed to circumnavigate the
globe, steaming outside the shipping lanes and tracking solar
storms.
Byrd would not be coming with us. He had died in February. But
the operations were closely
associated with him and with his schoolboy-hero mystique. The
last of the explorers, he actually
''discovered'' places and named them -- Marie Byrd Land, for
example, and Mount Edsel Ford,
its overmastering peak. In the tank towns and tenements from
which the 50's Navy was
recruited, his career evoked the essence of exotic adventure.
In the autumn of 1957 I was 19 years old, in the Navy and also
more or less permanently in the
grip of romantic adolescent impulses. That year, I rashly
volunteered to serve with the last of the
Byrd expeditions to the Antarctic continent aboard the U.S.S.
Arneb. The Arneb would depart
New England in December for the bases Adm. Richard E. Byrd had
established at Little America
on McMurdo Sound in Antarctica. It would then proceed to
circumnavigate the globe, steaming
outside the shipping lanes and tracking solar storms.
Byrd would not be coming with us. He had died in February. But
the operations were closely
associated with him and with his schoolboy-hero mystique. The
last of the explorers, he actually
''discovered'' places and named them -- Marie Byrd Land, for
example, and Mount Edsel Ford,
its overmastering peak. In the tank towns and tenements from
which the 50's Navy was
recruited, his career evoked the essence of exotic adventure.
The journey would take almost a year. After Thanksgiving, the
volunteer crew began gathering
at the Seabee base in Davisville, R.I. Among them were many
bookish high-school dropouts like
me, along with protocomputer-nerd technicians attracted by the
state-of-the-art detecting devices
provided by the University of Chicago to monitor cosmic rays.
Like the Pequod from Nantucket, the Arneb departed the
ice-edged New England shore at
Christmastime with its complement of largely juvenile
adventurers. ''Yet now, federated along
one keel, what a set these Isolatoes were,'' a 19th-century
American novelist might have written
of us as well. They ''blindly plunged like fate into the lone
Atlantic!'' he might have said. In
other words, I had found the ideal circumstances to read
''Moby-Dick,'' at just the right age.
I had a second novel along, one considerably less bulky, that
my mother had sent me. My mother
was a free but tormented spirit, an ex-teacher who shuttled
between single-room-occupancy
hotels and hospitals. She'd picked it up somewhere, and thought
I'd like to have a look at it. It
was by a young author, one I'd never heard of. The author was
Jack Kerouac and the novel was
''On the Road.''
I read the Melville first. Across the southern ocean, far from
customary skies, I would lie in my
rack each night with a pen flashlight, a force 11-plus gale
screaming above decks, listening to the
groaning of seams and the squealing of lockers as the ship
rolled to starboard, the lockers
creaking, creaking, creaking, threatening to go over. At each
roll, the ship favored its congenital
list, easing farther and farther toward that soft starboard
side -- maybe herself capsizing -- while
my hair stood on end at Ahab's rant when his first mate, the
godly Quaker Starbuck, accuses him
of blasphemy for wanting to take it all out on a dumb whale:
''All visible objects, man, are but as
pasteboard masks. But in each event -- in the living act, the
undoubted deed -- there, some
unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the moldings of
its features from behind the
unreasoning mask. . . .That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I
hate; and be the white whale agent
or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon
him. Talk not to me of blasphemy,
man; I'd strike the sun if it insulted me.''
Then I would look up into the dark compartment, because we
really had been listing to starboard
for the longest time and I had to wonder if we ever would
right, and then, slowly, the big tub
would find its level and begin to creak back upright toward the
best it could manage by way of
an even keel.
''Who's over me?'' the mad captain demanded of his reasonable,
humane No. 1. ''Truth hath no
confines.''
So during gunnery practice when I found myself with frozen
fingers clinging to the ladder of a
sight mounting at 53 degrees south latitude while the ship
fought its way, decks awash, through
the swells -- I could compare my condition to Tashtego's as he
lashed down the Pequod's
main-topsail yard amid thunder and lightning.
Then, somewhere between Montevideo and the Carolina Capes, with
the Pequod settled deep
beneath the Japan Ground, I picked up Kerouac's novel. After
the months of half-light, the
rolling ship and the blank horizon, ''On the Road'' floored me.
Aboard the Arneb, life was a
trancelike state. Each day, by design, was exactly like another
except for the weather, the pattern
interrupted only by drunken hallucinatory liberties in places,
with people one would never see
again, prostitutes and land sharks -- who receded into phantoms
of alcoholic memory. Here in
this book with its primordially American title, by a young man
with a semipronounceable name,
was the World, the one I'd lost at sea while youth atrophied
and my inner ear echoed with
Ahab's hassles with ''that unknown but still reasoning thing.''
In contrast, ''On the Road'' was the
narrative of someone I imagined as not much older than myself
and so like myself that -- he was
me! Me, and out occupying my rightful place in the lost World,
experiencing ever new towns,
new guilt-free sexual adventures, the pleasures of wonderful
friends and jazz and art and
bohemia.
I had a few bohemian pretensions myself, you understand. I
could rejoice in the knowledge that I
was certainly the only sailor aboard the Arneb with a
girlfriend at the High School of Music and
Art. But there was something else about the narrator, Sal
Paradise, that made me identify with
him, something in the sad undertone of the novel that is
finally its core. That narrator was
forever in search of American authenticity and it was forever
somewhere else. He, like me, came
from a place that seemed distressingly inauthentic. For him as
for me, the road to America
suggested a transcendent journey toward an ineffable reality
that was somehow our lost
birthright. The road to Opelousas, the road to Ogallala, the
road to Truckee. Hence we must
hasten, the book seemed to say in that darker key, to find
ourselves no more authentic, no more
at home. Because of its youthful enthusiasm, and my own, I was
not so aware then of that
heartbreaking subtext in ''On the Road.'' Of course its
components would years later bring the
author, who brought so much wild promise to so many, into the
nightmare heart of his own
interior darkness.
When I'd finished the novel I started passing it along to the
friends I'd made on the voyage, the
underachievers and inept teen-age car thieves and feckless
younger brothers of heroes of the
recent war. And it turned out that they too came from
hopelessly inauthentic places, they too
dreamed of an infinity of willing, largehearted, well-read
women and parties and big-city action,
a world of jazz and girls and reefer in which they would be
unwontedly at home and welcome.
They too were looking for the road and they too loved Kerouac's
novel. So what dreams of high
times to come we projected on that endless succession of
hateful, gorgeous sunsets thanks to
Kerouac.
We could not know, as the author, who was then 35, would have,
that in the endless formula we
had already come to the Road, were already on it, that many of
us would come to look back on
our oceanic wanderings as the most of freedom and authenticity
we would ever know.
It never occurred to me, then or since, that ''On the Road''
was a great book. I had just finished
''Moby-Dick.'' For all the bright fantasies it invited, there
was really nothing much in ''On the
Road'' to ponder, to obsess over and argue about in the grave
adolescent atmosphere of our
nightly bull sessions. The book had very little humor. On the
contrary, it had an earnestness that
seemed a little much even to a pack of wised-up rubes like
ourselves, the crew of the Arneb.
Yet that earnestness never seemed to bring the reader any
closer to the touch of redemption
through insight that finally justifies fiction. Its characters
were thin and their relationship with
one another consisted of unvarying admiration and affection.
Situations where everybody is
smart, hip and beautiful are much more satisfactory in life
than in novels. It did not seem to
offer the shock of recognition of the tragedy we all suspected
lay at the core of things, which
even the sentimentality of Thomas Wolfe, plainly Kerouac's
model, provided. Even then, it
seemed that when the author approached the layers of art or the
emptiness of Buddha-hood there
was a naive posturing about the writing that made it seem a
trifle ignorant, a self-conscious
appropriation of high culture to ultimately trivial purpose.
But of course we loved the invocations of popular culture in
the book, since they occupied so
much of our imaginations -- comic strips, B movies, all that.
And it was fun to think of George
Shearing as God, in whose guise he briefly appears in ''On the
Road,'' although by 1957 and
1958 he had really stopped being God and become a fairly
conventional jazz pianist.
The overwhelming gratifying element in ''On the Road'' for its
contemporary readers was the
dream, the promise of life more abundant available to the young
American adventurer, the
intrepid traveler. Thirty or so years before, ''The Sun Also
Rises'' had offered similar dreams,
though it made them appear more difficult of access. ''The Sun
Also Rises'' was a better book, of
course, and it seems wiser, though that may be only because
Hemingway was tougher and meaner
and more realistic about people than Kerouac.
Years later, after our respective periods working in Vietnam, I
had a conversation with Michael
Herr, the author of the great war memoir ''Dispatches.''
''There are two kinds of things guys
like us do,'' Michael said to me. ''The things we do because we
read Jack Kerouac and the things
we do because we read Hemingway.''
As it once promised the future, ''On the Road'' now evokes the
past, pre-Interstate America, the
diners serving slabs of ice cream and fresh pie, the simple
cowboys singing songs of pretty girls
''sweet sixteen,'' the stars growing larger as Sal Paradise's
ride takes him out on the High Plains.
And if one thing works in a sound writerly fashion in it,
that's the portrayal of Neal Cassady.
The rendering of Cassady is so vivid that for years, trying to
say nice things about Kerouac's
novel, people who had read the book and knew Cassady would
assure one another of the
exactitude of that portrait.
Little did I suspect, out on the ocean, that in fewer than 10
years I, along with various other
marginal characters, would be sharing an abandoned Purina
factory on the Mexican coast with
the divine Cassady himself. By then a muscled-up, Popeye the
Sailor-like motormouth speed
loon, Cassady would be roaming the place with his capsules and
a hypodermic full of LSD,
eternally engaged in his private project of slipping
psychedelics into his fellow inmates' food or
drink.
When a number of us tried to elude him by buying a piglet and
roasting it, Cassady ambushed us
by injecting the squealing porker in vivo with about 10,000
micrograms of Owsley acid, upon
which I died some kind of literary death to emerge in Book
Hell. Book Hell is the place where
you are compelled to wander for days, hour after garrulous
hour, utterly whacked out, in the
company of larger-than-life characters you once thought
charming from pretty good novels you
once sort of enjoyed, while they tell you absolutely everything
else about themselves.
And little did I suspect that a major critic of the period,
Gerald Nicosia, would decades later
write:
''Both trail and superhighway, 'On the Road' led from
'Moby-Dick' . . . into the 21st century --
from outer to inner space. Ahab in 'Moby-Dick' searched for the
purveyors of cosmic evil. . . .
By contrast, the heroes of 'On the Road,' Dean Moriarty (Neal)
and Sal Paradise (Jack), no
matter how far they travel in the external world, are
ceaselessly penetrating deeper into their
own souls. They are constantly aware that their travel, by the
excitement and curiosity it
generates, is a means to understanding themselves. Travel to
them is a conscious philosophical
method by which they test the store of hand-me-down truisms.
Moreover, as a potent imaginative
symbol, travel is a philosopher's stone that turns every
experience into a spiritual lesson.''
I wish I could agree. This is an excerpt from ''On the Road,''
a section so typical the publishers
of this year's 40th-anniversary edition (Viking, $24.95) have
reproduced it on the back cover:
''So in America when the sun goes down and I sit on the old
broken-down river pier watching
the long, long skies over New Jersey and sense all that raw
land that rolls in one unbelievable
huge bulge over to the West Coast, and all that road going, all
the people dreaming in the
immensity of it, and in Iowa I know by now the children must be
crying in the land where they
let children cry, and tonight the stars'll be out, and don't
you know that God is Pooh Bear? the
evening star must be drooping and shedding her sparkler dims on
the prairie, which is just
before the coming of complete night that blesses the earth,
darkens all rivers, cups the peaks and
folds the final shore in, and nobody, nobody knows what's going
to happen to anybody besides
the forlorn rags of growing old, I think of Dean Moriarty, I
even think of Old Dean Moriarty
the father we never found, I think of Dean Moriarty.''
Let's say that the reader must provide a good half of the
genuine sentiment here from his own or
other sources. And the same, I think, is true throughout ''Some
of the Dharma'' (Viking,
$32.95), a previously unpublished collection of Kerouac's
Buddhist musings put out to mark the
occasion of the anniversary of ''On the Road.'' But let us,
Kerouac's survivors, remember how
much the work from which all this comes moved so many young
people, and also remember how
cruel, how brutal and heartless most of the mainstream media
were to Jack Kerouac and his
work during his lifetime. How in ridiculing his unarmored,
vulnerable prose they broke his too
tender heart and helped destroy him.
People once said that Jack Kerouac's name would be remembered
when those of his
contemporaries are forgotten. They may well be right, and for
filial and patriotic reasons I say
let it be so. But, on the whole, I think ''On the Road'' was
more Mom's kind of book than mine.
--30--
<i>Robert Stone, Rosencrantz Writer in Residence at Yale
University, is the author, most recently,
of ''Bear and His Daughter.'' His new novel, ''Damascus Gate,''
will be published in the spring.</i>
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:35:48 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg Anthology
In-Reply-To: <19971209230812.20989.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Jo,
> Thanks for your inquiry about my Ginsberg anthology, but, for now,
>at least, it's just a massive project for my Honors Composition class.
>My prof has suggested that I seek publication, but right now I'm just
>glad I have the silly thing finished!!
> Maggie
Maggie,
Just wondering. Should I designed a form so a person, like yourself, with a
finished writing project and probably considerable research, can enter the
details of the paper in case a publisher is interested? In case a fellow
writer wants to ask questions? In case a reporter, working on a story,
might want to talk to you?
what do you think?
jo
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
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625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:45:41 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I have a couple of things to say about the Stone on Kerouac article.
Stone writes about On the Road, "...yet that earnestness never seemed to
bring the reader any closer to the touch of redemption..."
What is clear to me in reading Kerouac and it was even present early on
in OTR, is that there is NO redemption for the characters or for the
reader. And it's a false expectation to believe that there should be a
"happy everafter" ending to the book or to life itself. Perhaps Kerouac
was, in fact, searching for redemption but he never found it, or if he
found it, he didn't accept it. Part of that is perhaps the fact that he
failed to find anything in the American dream that "authenticated" his
existence.
Stone also wrote "...when the author approached the layers of art or the
emptiness of Buddha-hood there was a naive posturing about the writing
that made it seem ignorant."
I fail to see any posturing in Kerouac or ignorance in his writing.
Perhaps what Stone percieves as being naive is Kerouac's sensitivity, and
maybe there is a problem with being too-sensitive, that you are not
hardened enough to accept all that life throws at you. But it seems to
me Kerouac was pretty intelligent and I wonder if what Stone is objecting
to is what he perceives as sentimentality, which we have discussed here
before. But I fully agree with the quoted passage from Gerald Nicosia
about Kerouac's spiritual search and I love the passage which ends OTR. I
think that Stone is reading it as being a kind of dreamy-eyed innocence
when in fact it evokes a never-ending search for something that is not
being found and all of those "people dreaming in the immensity of it"
don't have a clue if they will find what they are dreaming about, but
they continue to dream just the same because they are continually
confronted with "the forlorn rags of growing old."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:25:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>My response to this (too long to be printed as a letter, so run as a
>guest
>column) will be printed today and be at [http://www.csil.appstate.edu/
>beat.htm] by later tonight.
read your response, guy, mad cool! props to you for a a
knowledgable counter-attack that blew an uninformed piece of maggot
dung ouyt of the water... suggest all to check it out, but read the
original first, it's a riot to read what this "beats failed" guy said.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:48:21 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Hello Diane,
As usual I am enthralled with your sure handed elucidations that show me the
value of scholarship based upon a compassionate heart and vast intelligence.
I am a bit uneasy though about the seeking of personal authentication in
national dreams. It seems to me that dreams of a nation are to improve the
culture, the soil, the environment, in which human life might flourish, but
not to seek personal authentication through it. Being an american, or
twentieth century person anywhere can provide some degree of cultural
identification, but perhaps never a personal one.
I think that Kerouac was too inelligent too seek a personal identification
or authentication through any national dreams to begin with.
Happy holiday season everybody
leon
sage-----
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
>I have a couple of things to say about the Stone on Kerouac article.
>
>Stone writes about On the Road, "...yet that earnestness never seemed to
>bring the reader any closer to the touch of redemption..."
>
>What is clear to me in reading Kerouac and it was even present early on
>in OTR, is that there is NO redemption for the characters or for the
>reader. And it's a false expectation to believe that there should be a
>"happy everafter" ending to the book or to life itself. Perhaps Kerouac
>was, in fact, searching for redemption but he never found it, or if he
>found it, he didn't accept it. Part of that is perhaps the fact that he
>failed to find anything in the American dream that "authenticated" his
>existence.
>
>Stone also wrote "...when the author approached the layers of art or the
>emptiness of Buddha-hood there was a naive posturing about the writing
>that made it seem ignorant."
>
>I fail to see any posturing in Kerouac or ignorance in his writing.
>Perhaps what Stone percieves as being naive is Kerouac's sensitivity, and
>maybe there is a problem with being too-sensitive, that you are not
>hardened enough to accept all that life throws at you. But it seems to
>me Kerouac was pretty intelligent and I wonder if what Stone is objecting
>to is what he perceives as sentimentality, which we have discussed here
>before. But I fully agree with the quoted passage from Gerald Nicosia
>about Kerouac's spiritual search and I love the passage which ends OTR. I
>think that Stone is reading it as being a kind of dreamy-eyed innocence
>when in fact it evokes a never-ending search for something that is not
>being found and all of those "people dreaming in the immensity of it"
>don't have a clue if they will find what they are dreaming about, but
>they continue to dream just the same because they are continually
>confronted with "the forlorn rags of growing old."
>DC
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:59:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: road advice SF
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>actually, i'm in the same situation. i just dropped school for the
>semester. i
>was looking for some road trips. i'd love to come with you. but i'm
>torn, i do
>agree with patricia. you should be in school sometime. hell, so should
>i once
>i get a grasp on what the heck i'm doing with my life. trust me i know
>how you
>feel. good luck to
>you, man. i wish you the best.
>~~marlene
well thank you... i never cease to be amazed and enthralled at the
number of people who feel the same way... it also helps to clarify for
me what directions my writing and efforts in general have to go in... a
new beat spirit is what we need now more than ever, maybe even more
than the 50's.... what a freaking mess we live in, eh?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:19:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Alex Howard deserves a healthy hail of pats on the back and a unison shout of
"Well done!" I lift my glass with respect and appreciation.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:03:32 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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...as for myself, i live in serbia. we've just had a third round of
presidential elections, while the fourth is coming up in two weeks.
needless to say, to choose between the candidates is equal to choosing
between death by hanging or drowning. as i was walking to work yesterday
(as city transportation is in the state of collapse, and the faces you
see there may easily ruin your day), listening to the electoral results
on my walkman, feeling cheated and humiliated, i was reading kerouac as
well. book of dreams. there, i found a sentence "as i say, words, images
& dreams are fingers of false imagination pointing at the reality of
holy emptiness - but my words are still many & my images stretch to the
holy void like a road that has an end - it's the ROAD OF THE HOLY VOID
this writing, this life, this image of regrets--"
i don't know. maybe it wasn't the sentence. but for a second a had this
feeling that all the discussions on why he drank and whether he was
unhappy etc. don't make any sense. that buddhism speaks the truth: this
is not real. we are in fact all beautiful and perfectly happy. he was
perfectly happy. and all the horror within and outside us is an
illusion.
including politics. needless to say, all the despair was gone.
somehow, this experience i had connects with your message.
don't know if it makes sense.
that's all.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Diane Carter wrote:
> Part of that is perhaps the fact that he
> failed to find anything in the American dream that "authenticated" his
> existence.
> DC
It seems that any attempt to authenticate is intrinsically inauthentic.
The trying to be authentic separates from the authenticity sought. i'm
not far enough into the whole Jack story (almost done with Big Sur right
now) to see if this relates to his quandries - but it might.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
"there's no success like failure and failure's no success at all." bob
dylan
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:12:07 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: road advice SF
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-09 11:28:20 EST, you write:
<< complacency is really an epidemic among american college-aged folks.. >>
And it is the blackest of Plague-Deaths, ubiquitous, super-epidemic, among
americans once they get out of college...sadly enough, seems that college is
often the peak of non-complacency...pathetic the condition of the people...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:19:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jim Morrison/beat influence
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-09 03:12:25 EST, you write:
<< And I do believe our man Arthur got his idea about "prolonged derangement
of
the senses" from one William Blake, if memory serves.. >>
Ahh yes, _Marriage of Heaven and Hell_, no?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 01:39:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
VegasDaddy wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-12-09 11:28:20 EST, you write:
>
> << complacency is really an epidemic among american college-aged folks.. >>
>
> And it is the blackest of Plague-Deaths, ubiquitous, super-epidemic, among
> americans once they get out of college...sadly enough, seems that college is
> often the peak of non-complacency...pathetic the condition of the people...
some of the people ain't so bad...in and out of college i've found
pretty good folks and if they're plagued and it's contagious than the
complacency is at least nothing life threatening.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 04:16:49 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: road advice SF
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
just think of the Barney generation of carnage through mediocrity.
auuuggghhhhh!
mc
VegasDaddy wrote:
> In a message dated 97-12-09 11:28:20 EST, you write:
>
> << complacency is really an epidemic among american college-aged folks.. >>
>
> And it is the blackest of Plague-Deaths, ubiquitous, super-epidemic, among
> americans once they get out of college...sadly enough, seems that college is
> often the peak of non-complacency...pathetic the condition of the people...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:41:40 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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DCardKJHS wrote:
>
> Alex Howard deserves a healthy hail of pats on the back and a unison shout of
> "Well done!" I lift my glass with respect and appreciation.
What did Alex Howard say to deserve such acclaim? --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:12:56 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Alex, job well done. Way to use the journalistic system of checks and balances.
-----Original Message-----
From: DCardKJHS [SMTP:DCardKJHS@AOL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 1997 11:19 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
Alex Howard deserves a healthy hail of pats on the back and a unison shout of
"Well done!" I lift my glass with respect and appreciation.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:53:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Beat Movement Was A Failure
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
It seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
Generation, except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im just
misunderstanding what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
article?
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:17:41 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: road advice SF
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-10 06:51:37 EST, you write:
<< just think of the Barney generation of carnage through mediocrity.
auuuggghhhhh!
mc >>
scary thought
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:12:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:48:58 -0600 from <race@MIDUSA.NET>
I'm not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
Kerouac, it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
his art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
and others did before him. I agree with Diane wholeheartedly that he
never found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
impossibility of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
through his work. How does one discover or authenticate himself,
except by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
national identity, religion etc. In the end, one's search for self may
end in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
but the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
ideas nonetheless.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:34:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: truly beat?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
dear listees,
i just finished reading "the beat movemnet was a failure" and alex's response.
first of all, well done alex. he deserves a standing o. second of all,
something in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
stated something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a formula on the
lifestyle and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where to
begin to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat." can any of
you give me a clue as to what "truly beat" is? i've considered the
impossibility of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
~~Marlene
oh, and to alex: i have a friend who was recently accepted to appalachian
state.i was thinking of looking into the school myself. i just want to know
how you like it. perhaps you could e-mail me privately. i'd appreciate it.
M84M79@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:42:13 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
If someone asked me if I am beat, I would tell them to beat it.
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 8:36 AM
Subject: truly beat?
>dear listees,
>i just finished reading "the beat movemnet was a failure" and alex's
response.
>first of all, well done alex. he deserves a standing o. second of all,
>something in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
>stated something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a formula on
the
>lifestyle and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where
to
>begin to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat." can any
of
>you give me a clue as to what "truly beat" is? i've considered the
>impossibility of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
>~~Marlene
>
>oh, and to alex: i have a friend who was recently accepted to appalachian
>state.i was thinking of looking into the school myself. i just want to know
>how you like it. perhaps you could e-mail me privately. i'd appreciate it.
>M84M79@aol.com
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:49:11 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Beat is a word that hides/covers a multitude of sins and virtues, mostly
sins though, kinda beats around the bush, leaves lots to the imagination of
the beholder
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 8:36 AM
Subject: truly beat?
>dear listees,
>i just finished reading "the beat movemnet was a failure" and alex's
response.
>first of all, well done alex. he deserves a standing o. second of all,
>something in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
>stated something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a formula on
the
>lifestyle and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where
to
>begin to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat." can any
of
>you give me a clue as to what "truly beat" is? i've considered the
>impossibility of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
>~~Marlene
>
>oh, and to alex: i have a friend who was recently accepted to appalachian
>state.i was thinking of looking into the school myself. i just want to know
>how you like it. perhaps you could e-mail me privately. i'd appreciate it.
>M84M79@aol.com
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:15:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: road advice SF
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>i don't know. maybe it wasn't the sentence. but for a second a had this
>feeling that all the discussions on why he drank and whether he was
>unhappy etc. don't make any sense. that buddhism speaks the truth: this
>is not real. we are in fact all beautiful and perfectly happy. he was
>perfectly happy. and all the horror within and outside us is an
>illusion.
>somehow, this experience i had connects with your message.
>don't know if it makes sense.
makes absolutely perfect sense... you've essentially stated my
demeanor and general outlook on life.. i've found it to be very
healthy, the more you give yourself over to it the less stress you
have... the biggest obstacle, one which Jack certainly dealt with, is
overcoming the desire for "more" for prestige, for attaining the
societorial pie in the sky, elevated position, fame... something
brought about by deeming one kind of living as lesser than others... to
overcome it is to realize the pointlessness and at the same time
transcend it to a state of daily bliss. to do what brings you
happiness regardless of environmental circumstances, imposed or
otherwise. if you want to "change the world" change yourself 3 degrees
and you'll find everything around you does a complete 180 and you see
things in a whole new light.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:17:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>It seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
>Generation, except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im just
>misunderstanding what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
>article?
i agree... on the whole it's nothing negative... a bit confusing
if anything, how much he says he reveled in it, then ends by saying it
was more his mother's type of book...
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:25:17 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> It seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
> Generation, except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im just
> misunderstanding what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
> article?
> ~Nancy
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
Can somebody post a copy of "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE" so I can see
what all the fuss is about. I read Stone's piece and don't think it
fits that headline, "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE." Are you people
talking about some other piece? --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:33:39 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Pinocchio.
In-Reply-To: <3489E759.4DC97EB2@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
morning
empty row
villas
green
green
hedges
barking
dogs
BEWARE THE DOG
day to day
barking
barking
maybe
a day
they 'll
stop it
thinking
me friend
---
Rinaldo
10th dec 98
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:48:52 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Pinocchio.
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rinald, are you meaning more than the name of the walt disney fable
animation?
duh,
mc
Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> morning
> empty row
>
> villas
> green
>
> green
> hedges
>
> barking
> dogs
>
> BEWARE THE DOG
> day to day
>
> barking
> barking
>
> maybe
> a day
>
> they 'll
> stop it
>
> thinking
> me friend
>
> ---
> Rinaldo
> 10th dec 98
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:07:06 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
Comments: To: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
In-Reply-To: <348ED07C.7406@bigmagic.com>
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Al et al-
Yes, exactly. The title didnt seem to fit...glad to see that Im not the
only confused one here...
~Nancy
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Al Aronowitz wrote:
> Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
> >
> > It seems to me that the author of this article was championing the Beat
> > Generation, except for that little "flower power" bit. Maybe Im just
> > misunderstanding what everyone's reacting to but whats wrong with the
> > article?
> > ~Nancy
> > The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> > Sure-JK
> Can somebody post a copy of "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE" so I can see
> what all the fuss is about. I read Stone's piece and don't think it
> fits that headline, "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE." Are you people
> talking about some other piece? --Al Aronowitz
> --
> ***************************************
> Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
> http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:09:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Flower Power
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Correct me if Im wrong but beat was pre-flower power, right?...Otherwise,
after having read the article again, it still seems like the author is in
admiration of the Beat Generation...
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:18:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997121010240673@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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B. G.,
May I add your comments about Stone's article "American Dreamers: Melville
and Kerouac" in Sunday's N.Y.Times to the document that has been reprinted
on BookZen's Free Book Information Library?
Thanks.
jo grant
By the way Bill, what is the protocal about reprinting comments made on the
list? When I read something that would provide insights to a book or
article that is on BookZen, I'd like to share it with the librarians who
browse BookZen regularly. Is there a problem?
>I'm not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
>Kerouac, it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
>his art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
>and others did before him. I agree with Diane wholeheartedly that he
>never found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
>impossibility of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
>through his work. How does one discover or authenticate himself,
>except by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
>national identity, religion etc. In the end, one's search for self may
>end in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
>but the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
>ideas nonetheless.
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:25:52 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
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I thought the article was trying to say, (not to clearly) that of the
two books, that otr did not stand up, that it was interesting in
pushing certain current (at the time of his perry without the perry
trip) buttons but wasn't really there over time. I might be confused
but it was one of those damning with slight praise things.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:48:19 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: second beat mag?
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hey beat-l'ers
does any one know if the latest issue of Second Beat (the wsburroughs
tribute issue as far as i know) has been released or
how i can get in touch with the publishers (Camelia City books)?
thanks
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:23:10 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "PoOka(the friendly ghost)" <jdematte@TURBO.KEAN.EDU>
Subject: leaving the list.
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hey folks,
sorry to bug everyone about this but i am having trouble getting
off of the beat list. I'm going away for quite some time and i won't be
able to answer any mail. Can someone refer me to a higher power so i can
unsubscribe? thanks.
jason
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:04:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: todd edmondson <tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: redemption
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i think a couple of you have said some very interesting things about
kerouac's search for redemption. i think if he was searching for
redemption in the authentication of national dreams, he was on the wrong
path completely. true redemption, as has been my own experience, comes not
in the form of anything that we on earth can truly identify with, such as
"the american dream" or anything like that, but in something far more
spiritual than that which the eye has seen. kerouac and other beats seemed
to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
that--religions created by man. in order to be redeemed as a writer or a
human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
than that. i believe with all my heart that i have found that redemption
in Christianity--not the Christianity that is found in many churches today,
where people are condemned without compassion and judged as if man were
God. that sort of thought found much opposition in the "beat movement",
and understandably so. the christianity i embrace does have an absolute
system of right and wrong, but realizes that man, despite vain attempts to
attain moralistic perfection, is hopelessly lost within his own existence.
only the grace and mercy of a truly benevolent God can save man from his
situation--not a god of laws but a God of love for all men. i understand
that this is an unpopular position, and i don't mean to be overly agressive
with my "religion", especially my first time on this list. however, i feel
that man's search for redemption is a serious topic and if i have any
insight, i should contribute, however it may cause me to be perceived. all
i'm asking is that if any of you are looking for some path to redemption,
try this one. it's worked for me and many others, and despite its
perversions at the hands of man, doesn't have to conform to the negative
connotations placed on it throughout the ages.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:22:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:18:41 -0500 from
<jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Sure, you can add my comment if you like. As far as Beat-l postings are concer
ned, it's fine with me to reprint them so long as the author grants permission.
I think my comment was more on Leon's and Diane's argument about authenticity.
I actually wrote a friend about the Stone article and categorized it as "sour
grapes." Maybe I'll post that piece if the thread continues.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:32:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:04:07 -0500 from
<tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Kerouac's searching wasn't limited to a national idea like the American Dream.
As you rightly point out he also searched for such redemption through establis
hed religion -- Buddhism and Roman Catholicism. There's also evidence that he
looked for such redemption in nature, art, drugs, and friendship. Unfortunatel
y nothing seemed to work for him for very long.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:36:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> I thought the article was trying to say, (not to clearly) that of the
> two books, that otr did not stand up, that it was interesting in
> pushing certain current (at the time of his perry without the perry
> trip) buttons but wasn't really there over time. I might be confused
> but it was one of those damning with slight praise things.
> patricia
i really enjoyed the stories in the article. they were kind of fun and
pulled me in to where i felt i was there watching the events
transpire....but when the articles shifted from story to criticism, i
think that you are way to kind in saying "not so clearly" - the fog
around the writer's point was far too thick for me to penetrate.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:39:09 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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todd edmondson wrote:
>
> i think a couple of you have said some very interesting things about
> kerouac's search for redemption. i think if he was searching for
> redemption in the authentication of national dreams, he was on the wrong
> path completely. true redemption, as has been my own experience, comes not
> in the form of anything that we on earth can truly identify with, such as
> "the american dream" or anything like that, but in something far more
> spiritual than that which the eye has seen. kerouac and other beats seemed
> to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
> that--religions created by man. in order to be redeemed as a writer or a
> human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
> than that. i believe with all my heart that i have found that redemption
> in Christianity--not the Christianity that is found in many churches today,
> where people are condemned without compassion and judged as if man were
> God. that sort of thought found much opposition in the "beat movement",
> and understandably so. the christianity i embrace does have an absolute
> system of right and wrong, but realizes that man, despite vain attempts to
> attain moralistic perfection, is hopelessly lost within his own existence.
> only the grace and mercy of a truly benevolent God can save man from his
> situation--not a god of laws but a God of love for all men. i understand
> that this is an unpopular position, and i don't mean to be overly agressive
> with my "religion", especially my first time on this list. however, i feel
> that man's search for redemption is a serious topic and if i have any
> insight, i should contribute, however it may cause me to be perceived. all
> i'm asking is that if any of you are looking for some path to redemption,
> try this one. it's worked for me and many others, and despite its
> perversions at the hands of man, doesn't have to conform to the negative
> connotations placed on it throughout the ages.
it seems that it would be difficult to translate the type of redemption
i kind of understand you hinting at to anything that would be events on
paper.....maybe i'm wrong, but it sounds as though a person called to
write would not find redemption.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:38:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Speakeasy
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For the folks in my neck of the woods <Seattle> I thought this might be of
interest...
20 December @ 8pm @ The Speakeasy Cafe in Bell Town.... JACK SARGEANT,
featured lecturer as part of "Naked Lens: Beat Cinema". With a screening of
both PULL MY DAISY and COMMUNION ...
See some of you there?
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Speakeasy
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At 06:38 PM 12/10/97 EST, RoadSide6 wrote:
>both PULL MY DAISY and COMMUNION ...
Would this be "Wholly Communion?"
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:38:33 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Beat Movement Was A Failure
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> Al Arnowitz wrote:
> Can somebody post a copy of "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE" so I can see
> what all the fuss is about. I read Stone's piece and don't think it
> fits that headline, "BEAT MOVEMENT WAS A FAILURE." Are you people
> talking about some other piece? --Al Aronowitz
There is some confusion here between two threads. "The Beat Movement Was
a Failure" was an article whose URL was posted here by Alex Howard. The
article appeared in his school newspaper. He also posted an URL to go to
to read his response to that article. Maybe he can do that again for any
of you who missed it. Most of the comments about Stone's article are on
the thread called "Stone on Kerouac."
DC
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:40:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Henry Miller
In-Reply-To: <348ED399.37A9@together.net>
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Just wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
Henry Miller. I know he was an influence on Kerouac and that they almost
met in BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
Cordially,
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
"We are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
full. But we are all potentially free. We can stop thinking of what we
have failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
powers that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
are infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
imagination is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
--Henry Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:14:33 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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> RACE wrote:
> it seems that it would be difficult to translate the type of redemption
> i kind of understand you hinting at to anything that would be events on
> paper.....maybe i'm wrong, but it sounds as though a person called to
> write would not find redemption.
First of all, I think the kind of redemption that Todd is referring to as
found in Christianity, was there for Kerouac to accept throughout his
life in the form of Catholicism. Particularly, one could make a case
that fruitlessness of one's efforts that Kerouac described so aptly in
several works, his belief that all is vanity, all is suffering, all
ends in death, can be construed in terms of Christianity and the Catholic
church to be the nature place of man in human-ness, the state of man as
in a place where he has fallen from grace. This grace was however
restored to man through Jesus, redemption is there through the simple act
of belief. It's clear that Kerouac could never accept this type of
redemption. However, what interests me about David reply is the fact
that Kerouac never found redemption in writing. Perhaps he did seek to
do so but it doesn't appear that writing alone can work out spiritual
pain. And if we go back to the "authenticate" theme again, it seems more
possible that one could authenticate oneself through writing than redeem
oneself. Any other thoughts on this topic?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:12:57 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly page updated!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I updated the page today and have a small bit of news about the future of
the quarterly. Take care everybody! Paul...
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:59:21 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: That's what Michael Jackson said!
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Leon said:
> If someone asked me if I am beat, I would tell them to beat it.
>
Leon, that's what Michael Jackson once said. Then Al Yankovick (sp?)
said eat it. So, that might be an appropriate response as well! :-)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:12:35 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: todd edmondson <tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: redemption
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
in response to what diane said in response to what i said about redemption,
i agree with her that someone such as kerouac could authenticate himself
through writing. the way in which i would define authentication would make
it possible, through a long and maybe difficult process, to tap into
something within in order to make something real of oneself. for kerouac
and countless others, this something within would be writing. redemption
by this process would be much harder--by my definition, impossible. in
order to be redeemed, we have to be in a state that makes redemption
necessary. i think it would be impossible for someone in this life-state
to somehow pull hisself out of that situation. redemption has to come from
without.
todd
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:12:31 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Diane Carter wrote:
> However, what interests me about David reply is the fact
> that Kerouac never found redemption in writing. Perhaps he did seek to
> do so but it doesn't appear that writing alone can work out spiritual
> pain. And if we go back to the "authenticate" theme again, it seems more
> possible that one could authenticate oneself through writing than redeem
> oneself. Any other thoughts on this topic?
> DC
well, it seems to me, that living an authentic existence would include a
spiritual dimension and spiritual pain would be a symptom of something
out of kilter in terms of authenticity. my hunch is that at some point
authenticity and personal redemption overlap nearly completely. it
seems to me that writing "could" provide this for folks -- and maybe
even for Kerouac. What strikes me at the moment as i touch fingers to
keys is that perhaps Kerouac's difficulties were most associated with
finding authenticity when he WASN'T writing. I just finished Big Sur
this morning and i had to think that the spiritual state of the author
while writing -- especially given the perspective of the last page (Jack
always seems to have a great last page doesn't he <grin>) is completely
different from the spiritual state of the Jack described during the
narrative of the Big Sur crack-up. So perhaps the difficulty of finding
redemption and authenticity in writing is that there is no ground to
stand on between writings. But i'm just typing out of my ass right now
and i can't say i really have any idea what the truth is when it comes
to notions of authenticity and redemption -- and if anyone has a good
handbook for such matters please send them to me for Xmas!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:15:55 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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todd edmondson wrote:
>
> in response to what diane said in response to what i said about redemption,
> i agree with her that someone such as kerouac could authenticate himself
> through writing. the way in which i would define authentication would make
> it possible, through a long and maybe difficult process, to tap into
> something within in order to make something real of oneself. for kerouac
> and countless others, this something within would be writing. redemption
> by this process would be much harder--by my definition, impossible. in
> order to be redeemed, we have to be in a state that makes redemption
> necessary. i think it would be impossible for someone in this life-state
> to somehow pull hisself out of that situation. redemption has to come from
> without.
> todd
writing is something that comes from within and without.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:45:21 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: main user <mparsons@PARTECHSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
Mime-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> it seems that it would be difficult to translate the type of redemption
> i kind of understand you hinting at to anything that would be events on
> paper.....maybe i'm wrong, but it sounds as though a person called to
> write would not find redemption.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
I don't know if we find it or not, but, as with all things, it's the attmept
that truly matters... the act of writing, of puttting it all on the page, is
in some ways, the saving grace of all scribblers... it portrays the
reflections of heaven and hell in us all.
Mick
"When I was young, I belived in God, but as I got older, it was my desire to
see God that kept me from seeing what was here on Earth"
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:21:16 -0500
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From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Some of the Dharma reading itinerary posted!
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I have posted the complete program of the St. Mark's Poetry Project reading
of Some of the Dharma (thanks to the Kerouac Estate for this info!)on The
Kerouac Quarterly web page. To read, go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks! Paul....
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:07:42 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: redemption
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In a message dated 97-12-10 22:59:13 EST, David wrote:
<< But i'm just typing out of my ass right now
and i can't say i really have any idea what the truth is >>
Thank you, David, for putting voice to a thought that (I'm sure) many of us
harbor about ourselves. As for myself, any time you see a post from DCard on
the List, rest assured I've typed it out of my ass. If ignorance is bliss, I
am TRULY blissed.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:19:41 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Some of the Dharma reading itinerary posted!
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971211042116.006a48ec@pop.pipeline.com>
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I have the complete program taped to my wall. It was quite a time,
folks...
~Nancy
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
> I have posted the complete program of the St. Mark's Poetry Project reading
> of Some of the Dharma (thanks to the Kerouac Estate for this info!)on The
> Kerouac Quarterly web page. To read, go to:
>
> http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
>
>
>
> Thanks! Paul....
> "We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
> Henry David Thoreau
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:27:47 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
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DCardKJHS wrote: If ignorance is bliss, I
> am TRULY blissed.
> Dennis
typing assholes. ON the tape "spare ass annie" is williams' bit about
the man who taught his ass hole to talk. Between laying down and
laughing so hard it hurts when i hear it, is depression because it is
such a perfect description of my old boss at city hall. charming, urbane
and utteryly souless. I personally believe in redemption without
christianity and think that writing is a shock wave seen from the big
bang. is there redemption only from outside of oneself, not for me , my
redemption is a pepperment of cum and tears.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:27:28 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> DCardKJHS wrote: If ignorance is bliss, I
> > am TRULY blissed.
> > Dennis
> typing assholes. ON the tape "spare ass annie" is williams' bit about
> the man who taught his ass hole to talk. Between laying down and
> laughing so hard it hurts when i hear it, is depression because it is
> such a perfect description of my old boss at city hall. charming, urbane
> and utteryly souless. I personally believe in redemption without
> christianity and think that writing is a shock wave seen from the big
> bang. is there redemption only from outside of oneself, not for me , my
> redemption is a pepperment of cum and tears.
> p
ROTFLMAO - i was just thinking we could make a quick transition to the
asshole that talked as a new WSB thread!!!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:53:43 -0600
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From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
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RACE --- wrote:
>
> Patricia Elliott wrote:
> >
> > DCardKJHS wrote: If ignorance is bliss, I
> > > am TRULY blissed.
> > > Dennis
> > typing assholes. ON the tape "spare ass annie" is williams' bit about
> > the man who taught his ass hole to talk. Between laying down and
> > laughing so hard it hurts when i hear it, is depression because it is
> > such a perfect description of my old boss at city hall. charming, urbane
> > and utteryly souless. I personally believe in redemption without
> > christianity and think that writing is a shock wave seen from the big
> > bang. is there redemption only from outside of oneself, not for me , my
> > redemption is a pepperment of cum and tears.
> > p
>
> ROTFLMAO - i was just thinking we could make a quick transition to the
> asshole that talked as a new WSB thread!!!!!
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
so funny, i was remembering when i first joined the list, someone
challenged that there was any thing spiritual or redemptive in williams
work and i have always found it so full of spirituality and redemption.
the ass hole eventually took over, closing the eyes and tongue to will.
it killed the brain stem connecting the what mind thought and felt, and
left it no longer able to speak from his mouth. by letting the ass hole
do all the talking, the ass hole eventually killed the man. left the man
with dead eyes. I have always understood this as that expressing the
truth somehow allowed the soul to live.
p
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:15:54 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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> RACE wrote:
> well, it seems to me, that living an authentic existence would include
> a
> spiritual dimension and spiritual pain would be a symptom of something
> out of kilter in terms of authenticity. my hunch is that at some point
> authenticity and personal redemption overlap nearly completely. it
> seems to me that writing "could" provide this for folks -- and maybe
> even for Kerouac. What strikes me at the moment as i touch fingers to
> keys is that perhaps Kerouac's difficulties were most associated with
> finding authenticity when he WASN'T writing. I just finished Big Sur
> this morning and i had to think that the spiritual state of the author
> while writing -- especially given the perspective of the last page
> (Jack
> always seems to have a great last page doesn't he <grin>) is completely
> different from the spiritual state of the Jack described during the
> narrative of the Big Sur crack-up. So perhaps the difficulty of
> finding
> redemption and authenticity in writing is that there is no ground to
> stand on between writings."
Well, for me, your reasoning here jumped a bit but brought up several
good things. First of all, that spiritual pain is a sign that things are
out of kilter in terms of authenticity. You also should consider that
spiritual pain might not be a negative. It may be instead a fundamental
state of human-ness, in which man is in pain and man is not in pain.
Both exist together as fundamental traits of being in the world; one
might or might not be advantageous over the other. You reminded me of a
quote from William Barrett's "What is Existentialism?" where he writes,
"Authenticity is only a question of modification, slight but profound,
within our everyday existence which places this existence in a new and
altogether different perspective."
As far as Big Sur goes, I felt the ending was a big let-down. It's this
bouncing back and forth from despair to joy again. Kerouac writes,
"...The corner of the yard where Tyke is buried will be a new and
fragrant shrine making my home more homelike somehow--On soft spring
nights I'll stand in the yard under the stars--Something good will come
out of things yet--And it will be golden and eternal just like
that--There's no need to say another word." Of all the endings to all of
Kerouac's books I felt like this one was the least sincere and almost
thrown on as a last minute attempt to give the book a happy ending.
After having read Big Sur we know he is on an emotional roller-coaster
that will not stop long in this peaceful and contented place.
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:29:47 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Big Sur - separating the author from the character Re: redemption
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
> As far as Big Sur goes, I felt the ending was a big let-down. It's this
> bouncing back and forth from despair to joy again. Kerouac writes,
> "...The corner of the yard where Tyke is buried will be a new and
> fragrant shrine making my home more homelike somehow--On soft spring
> nights I'll stand in the yard under the stars--Something good will come
> out of things yet--And it will be golden and eternal just like
> that--There's no need to say another word." Of all the endings to all of
> Kerouac's books I felt like this one was the least sincere and almost
> thrown on as a last minute attempt to give the book a happy ending.
> After having read Big Sur we know he is on an emotional roller-coaster
> that will not stop long in this peaceful and contented place.
> DC
i think the ending requires the reader to recognize the distinction
between the author and the character over time. the incidents that are
the extremes of the crack-up are not occuring at the time of the
writing. in expressing the crack-up the author is acting in an almost
opposite perspective from the cracked-up character. it takes a pretty
together person to tell the truth about such incidents (as i think Levi
mentioned before). As i read it, the last portion was the author's
voice as opposed to the cracked up voice. It reminded me in a way of
the redemptive writing of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least spiritual act.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:56:59 -0800
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From: sherri <love_singing@MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
i heartily disagree. redemption can only come from within for that is where
the spirit lives and only the spirit can be aware that there is such a thing
as redemption (although, not having read the previous posts, i'm not sure
how it's being defined). all that is in the universe is in the soul, the
soul redeems itself because it a part of that single universal spirit which
is the diaphane, the ether, that is the "subsatnce" from which all things
tangible and intangible are born.
peace, sherri
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:28:33 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from the character Re:
redemption
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At 11:29 PM 12/10/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>It reminded me in a way of the redemptive writing
>of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
>writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least
>spiritual act.
A quote from _Big Sur_:
"--Long nights simply thinking about the usefulness
of that little wire scourer, those little yellow copper
things you buy in supermarkets for 10 cents, all to
me infinitely more interesting than the stupid and
senseless 'Steppenwolf' novel in the shack which
I read with a shrug, this old fart reflecting the 'conformity'
of today and all the while he thought he was a big
Nietzsche, old imitator of Dostoevsky 50 years too late
(he feels tormented in a 'personal hell' he calls it
because he doesnt like what other people like!)--"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 00:29:38 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from the character Re:
redemption
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 11:29 PM 12/10/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>
> >It reminded me in a way of the redemptive writing
> >of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
> >writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least
> >spiritual act.
>
> A quote from _Big Sur_:
>
> "--Long nights simply thinking about the usefulness
> of that little wire scourer, those little yellow copper
> things you buy in supermarkets for 10 cents, all to
> me infinitely more interesting than the stupid and
> senseless 'Steppenwolf' novel in the shack which
> I read with a shrug, this old fart reflecting the 'conformity'
> of today and all the while he thought he was a big
> Nietzsche, old imitator of Dostoevsky 50 years too late
> (he feels tormented in a 'personal hell' he calls it
> because he doesnt like what other people like!)--"
i thought this was hilarious cuz while the settings are different the
story is basically the same -- harry haller or jack -- same trip
basically.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:38:31 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: redemption
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kerouac and other beats seemed
> to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
> that--religions created by man. in order to be redeemed as a writer or a
> human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
> than that.
can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
claiming to be the only one.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:58:47 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
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second of all,
> something in the article got me thinking. Sam (i believe that was his name)
> stated something like, "to be truly beat..." as if there was a formula on the
> lifestyle and he knew what it was. this angered me. i don't even know where to
> begin to find a definition (other than this list) on "being beat." can any of
> you give me a clue as to what "truly beat" is? i've considered the
> impossibility of answering this, but i'd like to get some feedback anyway.
there is nothing more dangerous than definitions. they limit you to the
smallest part of what you are.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:52:18 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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THE ORIGINAL american take on redemption
redemption comes from within, only knowable to the individual, and yet as
individuals belong to the species of man, even this is questionalble
-anne hutchinson, thrown out of massacusetts bay colony for deciding the
middlemen (ie authority male figures) we're needed for a direct connection to
the starry dyanamo at night.
she died a horrible death.
-emerson, thoreau, margaret fuller pick up the ball, adding that one can learn
to see from a different perspective, and be redeemed inside by a connection with
nature (inside/outside but still the individual)
organized religion: takes all direct experience away and deadens it with dogma.
their are days in shich i go to corner store and redemption center, and give my
beer bottles another round of incarnation.
feeling puckish
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:59:59 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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to explicate my rather cavalier post, i was talking of the inside/outside
american take on redemption, also taking into account where the inside
knowledge first comes from.
the transcendentalists were the first organized (loosely) literary group that
looked to the east for validation of their experiements and experiences.
and the beat goes on....
mc
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:59:29 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> to explicate my rather cavalier post, i was talking of the inside/outside
> american take on redemption, also taking into account where the inside
> knowledge first comes from.
> the transcendentalists were the first organized (loosely) literary group that
> looked to the east for validation of their experiements and experiences.
> and the beat goes on....
> mc
>
> >
the internal includes the external and the external includes the
internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:46:26 -0500
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From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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This is interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
and he said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
Jack Kerouac.
I then remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
Road" came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
enrolled in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
attended.
The book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
Marilyn Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good match, a beautiful woman
who liked to drink as much as Jack did.
But more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:25:15 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from the character Re:
redemption
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> RACE wrote:
>
> i think the ending requires the reader to recognize the distinction
> between the author and the character over time. the incidents that are
> the extremes of the crack-up are not occuring at the time of the
> writing. in expressing the crack-up the author is acting in an almost
> opposite perspective from the cracked-up character. it takes a pretty
> together person to tell the truth about such incidents (as i think Levi
> mentioned before). As i read it, the last portion was the author's
> voice as opposed to the cracked up voice. It reminded me in a way of
> the redemptive writing of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
> writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least spiritual act.
I don't disagree with your position that one must be in a period of
stability to write about the instability. My point is that the ending is
thrown at you really less than a page from where the character is still
in a highly agitated state where in his mind he sees the garbage pit
being dug as a grave. As I see it, the whole book is memory of events
including the ending. The author doesn't change voices at the end in a
way that says "that was the character then and this is me now." He falls
asleep and when he wakes up, everything is washed away and he is "normal"
again. Certainly his perspective is altered at the end, but it is a
sudden darkness to light scenario. It is also an ending that says "I'm
going home to mother and everything will be all right."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:16:22 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Big Sur - separating the author from the character Re:
redemption
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Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > RACE wrote:
> >
> > i think the ending requires the reader to recognize the distinction
> > between the author and the character over time. the incidents that are
> > the extremes of the crack-up are not occuring at the time of the
> > writing. in expressing the crack-up the author is acting in an almost
> > opposite perspective from the cracked-up character. it takes a pretty
> > together person to tell the truth about such incidents (as i think Levi
> > mentioned before). As i read it, the last portion was the author's
> > voice as opposed to the cracked up voice. It reminded me in a way of
> > the redemptive writing of Hesse in Steppenwolf - the surviving and
> > writing about it is itself a redemptive or at least spiritual act.
>
> I don't disagree with your position that one must be in a period of
> stability to write about the instability. My point is that the ending is
> thrown at you really less than a page from where the character is still
> in a highly agitated state where in his mind he sees the garbage pit
> being dug as a grave. As I see it, the whole book is memory of events
> including the ending. The author doesn't change voices at the end in a
> way that says "that was the character then and this is me now." He falls
> asleep and when he wakes up, everything is washed away and he is "normal"
> again. Certainly his perspective is altered at the end, but it is a
> sudden darkness to light scenario. It is also an ending that says "I'm
> going home to mother and everything will be all right."
> DC
ok i may have to say uncle on this. because you're right that the
transition to the last page is so abrupt as to be almost silly. that
didn't make sense to me -- in fact, i found myself having to shift gears
and re-read sentences over and over again on the last page b/c the
transition was so abrupt. but having read the last page over again
several times separated from the previous pages a bit, the other
interpretation made much more sense to me. It's really difficult
sometimes for me -- in reading Kerouac -- to tell when he's speaking for
the Kerouac of the moment in the story and when he's speaking for the
Kerouac writing the story with the perspective of some time.
i'll say uncle to the fact that the character of Jack has a sappy
ending. as for the author Kerouac, it seems he shows a bit of the
notion that writing through an ordeal - in all its horrors - is a way of
....not transcending but something close to that i'd guess....the
ordeal.
on another note, at completely unrelated - i was taken a bit by the fact
that at the beginning of the copy of Big Sur I was reading was this
statement about the Legend of D. and that it is a "comedy". I think
that perhaps it is difficult for us to see the comedy sometimes b/c we
only want to see the tragedy.
and Diane ... it seems that so many of your comments about Kerouac come
together in a few themes that i hope someday you can put together a
wonderful book of your thoughts on Jack. And since I always see the
opposite side of those coins - i'll heckle in admiration!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:45:21 -0500
Reply-To: "eastwind@erols.com"@erols.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "D. Patrick Hornberger" <"eastwind@erols.com"@EROLS.COM>
Organization: EASTWIND PUBLISHING
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
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Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:
>
> Just wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
> Henry Miller. I know he was an influence on Kerouac and that they almost
> met in BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
>
> Cordially,
> Don Lee
> Fayetteville, Ark.
>
> "We are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
> full. But we are all potentially free. We can stop thinking of what we
> have failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
> powers that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
> are infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
> imagination is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
> --Henry Miller
Good thought--
Miller was clearly influencial to the Beats--as an old guy myself who
met Ginsberg, Corso etc. (in Paris) my/our generataion was very much
into reading Miller, at the time, much of his stuff waass banned in
US...but most every college type could find at least one copy... the
ones published by Olympia aka: Obelisk Press, Paris.
In my mind I don't think enough is said about Miller's influence on the
Beats or for that matter--Miller's own talent as a writer is often
underplayed (probably becasue he wrote smut (for the time it was called
that anyway).His influence may have been more cultural than literary,
but Miller ddi write from the hip(heart) just like JK.
I dont remember where, but I recall JK, mentioning Miller's writing at
some lenghth.yes something yto do with Big Sur--but he comments on his
writing as well.If anyone knows write me.
Patrick
eastwind@erols.com
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:46:48 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: City Lights Books
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Beat-L'ers;
Just FYI, the City Lights bookstore homepage is back on line.
http://www.citylights.com/CLstore.html
Scott
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:09:48 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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RACE --- wrote:
> the internal includes the external and the external includes the
> internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>
> _____
if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
who
is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
hi dave
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:30:00 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
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I had a backchannell that kids me about having my tongue tied by a tongue
lashing from Big Daddy Bill that makes very funny references to war happy
clansmen in cliques.
Truth is that I considered coming to the defense of my thoughts on the
subject of authentication of self vs concern about our cultures and their
dreams. I decided to leave it alone after the subject moved on to redemption
of the soul, or has anyone suggested redemption of the american dream as
well?
While I greatly admire your lucid reasoning as well as Diane's, you guys
haven't convinced me at all that Jack felt that authentication or redemption
of his life or his soul depended upon the drubbing that America dreaming was
getting from America dealing with the dirty business of survival and power.
Yes he liked to write about both and hinted many ways to the influence of
one upon the other myriad facets and sometimes paradoxically appearing
details. Yes his attention frequently roamed from one aspect to another of
the vast universe that are our daily experiences of life. Still I have not
seen one instance of where he ties in authentication of self with the goings
on in the American dream.
It seems to me that we are looking at our use of words that denote richly
complex mixtures of realities and imaginary descriptions of loosely
"defined" conceptualizations. phantasies,
People authenticate their american identity when they give their lives in
war with declared enemies of the state. It has nevertheless happened that
some prisoners of war found more in common with their guards than with their
nation. When two catholics kill each other ina war of their nations, does
that authenticate theit religious identities, their national identities, the
identities of their selves? Many eagle scouts have authenticated their scout
credo that way. Many writers have authenticated their identity as writers by
the work they produced. Jack Keouac authenticated himself as a writer who
tilled the soil of the american landscape among other places that he could
find to search for any signs of life, mindless and mindfull action. It still
seems to me that for matters of the soul he seemed to reach to metaphysical
testimonies that transcended national dreams or realities.
Arguments are won by one side or another. Reflecting upon our understanding
of things only stimulates us to further explorations, hopefully to be able
to see more clearly in the grey areas of the mind where the perspective of
others brings more light as well as creates new shadows. Until the mind
becomes a well lit place. Would that be redemption? But when anyone starts
telling me that they know what I must do or think in order to find
redemption, then we do have an argument on our hands.
Unredeemed and in no need of authentication
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: Stone on Kerouac
>I'm not sure I'm going to put this very well but I agree with Diane.
>Kerouac, it seems to me, did seek to become part of, and to capture in
>his art, the vast spirit of the American dream as Wolfe and Fitzgerald
>and others did before him. I agree with Diane wholeheartedly that he
>never found the redemption that he was looking for and maybe the
>impossibility of achieving such redemption is a truth readers discover
>through his work. How does one discover or authenticate himself,
>except by measuring himself against a larger idea or tradition --
>national identity, religion etc. In the end, one's search for self may
>end in a rejection of such big ideas as divisive and counterproductive
>but the search, it seems to me, has to involve a struggle with such
>ideas nonetheless.
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:33:50 -0700
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: j.r. saul and thoreau & US nation state and kerouac's escape, etc
In-Reply-To: <199712111201.HAA02001@pike.sover.net>
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beat-l'ers and not...
just thought that i would add two bits abt trancendentalists (esp thoreau)
and some comments that john ralston saul (anybody out there heard of him?
he's a cultural and political theporist and author of _the doubter's
companion_, _voltaire's bastards_, and his latest book is called
_reflections of a siamese twin: canada at the end of the 20th century_, or
close to that anyway...) ANYWAY - he was mentioning that Canada is the
only true N.American state (which brought some chuckles from the audience,
lemme tell you) and then he proceeded to say:
USA = the great european NATION ( a la rousseau and the NATIONSTATE),
peopl+++e as state, one people united, etc
(in his opinion the US doesnt recognze this as they are too
consumed with the thoreau idea of "walden" which is actually a romanticist
idea of nature as "backdrop" and man as the conquerer of nature...)
EUROPE = has abondon the Nationstate, for something out of the middle ages
of recognizing differences...
CANADA = "united states", that is, it truely is an undefinable "society of
overlap" and it when those overlap occur that the country is best
defined...
unlike the US, in canada, because of the vast oppressiveness of
the landscape (which so many of us try to ignore for some reason...)
art=landscape=sex (that is the landscape informs the way we carry on our
lives and ourselves and informs the art that we produce...)
discuss
just a few thoughts.
derek
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Marie Countryman wrote:
> to explicate my rather cavalier post, i was talking of the inside/outside
> american take on redemption, also taking into account where the inside
> knowledge first comes from.
> the transcendentalists were the first organized (loosely) literary group that
> looked to the east for validation of their experiements and experiences.
> and the beat goes on....
> mc
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:33:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tara Lynn Waters <watert4@RPI.EDU>
Subject: Re: truly beat?
Comments: cc: kombat@rice.edu
i don't want to tackle this question, defining "truly beat", because it is an
impossible ideal. there are no formulas for living only that you be oneself,
be self-aware, self-understanding, open-eyed and open-eared and honest. for
each person this is different, it comes at a different time, it manifests
itself differently. yet i'll say this: to be truly beat, if this might be a
possibility is to be all of those things and more. who is to say what all must
come together in your life to achieve this? not i. and for me especially,
young and still learning so much, fain to call myself beat when in reality am i
not only an admirer, a follower of sorts who takes these brilliant minds of the
past and attempts to revitalize them in the future not as beat but as a part of
me which can never be called beat, whatever that may be. see, it is losing
sight of the magickal horizons that kerouac, ginsberg and burroughs laid out
before us to try to confine it with definition.
forever changing, evolving, open-ended and free.
tara
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:05:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: todd edmondson <tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <199712111611.LAA29553@pike.sover.net>
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I AM, COO-COO-CA-CHOO
todd
At 11:09 AM 12/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
>RACE --- wrote:
>
>> the internal includes the external and the external includes the
>> internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>>
>> _____
>
>if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
> who
>is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
>hi dave
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:09:54 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:52:18 +0000 from
<country@SOVER.NET>
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:52:18 +0000 Marie Countryman said:
>THE ORIGINAL american take on redemption
>redemption comes from within, only knowable to the individual, and yet as
>individuals belong to the species of man, even this is questionalble
>-anne hutchinson, thrown out of massacusetts bay colony for deciding the
>middlemen (ie authority male figures) we're needed for a direct connection to
>the starry dyanamo at night.
>she died a horrible death.
>-emerson, thoreau, margaret fuller pick up the ball, adding that one can learn
>to see from a different perspective, and be redeemed inside by a connection
>with
>nature (inside/outside but still the individual)
>organized religion: takes all direct experience away and deadens it with dogma.
>their are days in shich i go to corner store and redemption center, and give my
>beer bottles another round of incarnation.
>feeling puckish
>mc
Yes, this American tradition is distinct from the Roman Catholic position -- th
at Redemption (via Christ) comes from without -- divine intervention in time or
human events.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:13:03 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: todd edmondson <tcedmonds0@MCNET.MILLIGAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <348F7C57.D5A@eunet.yu>
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i'm sorry if i didn't explain myself clearly the first time. i didn't mean
to lump all religions but Christianity into this huge pile and say they
fail while Christianity triumphs. my point was that any religious system,
including Christianity, fails miserably when it comes to spreading
redemption. only God can do that, and religion does little more than talk
about it. i was implying that in order to find redemption, it is
necessary to find it outside of the organized church, in a more personal
relationship to God. this can be found throughout literature (in the
stories of flannery o'connor, particularly), and is a profound truth which,
i believe, is worth looking into. while my faith owes everything it is to
the teachings of Christ, i don't feel it is necessary to subscribe to the
doctrines of any modern-day church, especially because of the fact that
even the denominations within Christianity can't seem to agree on much of
anything. it's a search that neither your church leaders, your peers, nor
your family can make for you, and in the end it's on your (or my) shoulders
what we do. that was my point, however confusingly it was worded.
At 09:38 PM 12/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>kerouac and other beats seemed
>> to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
>> that--religions created by man. in order to be redeemed as a writer or a
>> human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
>> than that.
>
>can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
>you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
>religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
>claiming to be the only one.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:23:54 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:46:26 -0500 from
<rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:46:26 -0500 Richard Wallner said:
>This is interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
>and he said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
>Jack Kerouac.
>
>I then remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
>Road" came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
>enrolled in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
>attended.
>
>The book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
>Marilyn Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good match, a beautiful woman
>who liked to drink as much as Jack did.
>
>But more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
Ahhh....hum.....I think that was ANOTHER Jack...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:19:09 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
> who
> is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
> hi dave
PAUL!!! The Walrus was Paul.
looking out from my glass onion,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:41 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Musical Instruments from the Tomb of Tutankhamun.
In-Reply-To: <3489E759.4DC97EB2@scsn.net>
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The Trumpet of KING TUTANKHAMUN
The recording of the sound of
the trumpet was made in 1939 in
the Egyptian Museum in Cairo for
BBC radio.
The recording is so unique because
since their discovery the trumpets
have only been played on very few
occasions. Considering their fragile
state of preservation, it is very
unlikely that any more attempts will
ever be made again.
"Owing to its fragility, the original
silver trumpet has been played only
twice, in the spring of 1939, when
a modern mouthpiece was inserted.
At the first attempt, the trumpet was
shattered but it was restored immediately
and survived the eventual broadcast.
The notes obtained by the military trumpeter,
after the restoration, were c, e, g and c."
(From: L. Manniche, "Musical Instuments
from the Tomb of Tutankhamun", Oxford 1976, pp. 7-13).
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
point yr browser to web site &
u can download trombut.wav, the
ancient trumpet sound:
http.//www.rai.it/grr/golem/maniaci/regra/
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:43:00 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: Re: redemption
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Yes, later the walrus was Paul, but "no, you're not," said little Nickola
according to the jacket sleeve. All we really know is that if you're a boy,
you've let your face grow long and if you're a girl, you've let your
knickers down. Everyone is an eggman.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrien Begrand [SMTP:vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 1997 3:19 PM
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Re: redemption
Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman,
than
> who
> is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
> hi dave
PAUL!!! The Walrus was Paul.
looking out from my glass onion,
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:47:31 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: redemption
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In a message dated 97-12-11 13:26:53 EST, you write:
<< my point was that any religious system,
including Christianity, fails miserably when it comes to spreading
redemption. >>
anais nin said,
"art is my only religion..." and "i only believe in poetry...i only
believe in poetry"
personally, i can handle that.
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:41:30 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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all are holy.
AG
quoted
mc, december whatevah....
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:47:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RoadSide6 <RoadSide6@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Speakeasy
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In a message dated 97-12-10 23:09:01 EST, you write:
<<
>both PULL MY DAISY and COMMUNION ...
Would this be "Wholly Communion?"
Mike
>>
Methinks, yes... however the listing in WORDSCAPE Magazine had only the title
COMMUNION...
LD
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:34:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Joey Mellott <peyotecoyote@IAH.COM>
Subject: A certain Ginsberg picture
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On the episode of "The Fifties" on Friday, one of the photos they showed
was a spectacular picture of Ginsberg standing in a city with a nuclear
bomb going off in the corner, with him pointing at it in an "I warned you"
pose. Has anyone else seen this picture. Is there a copy of it online
somewhere?
Thanks
Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and progressive subversive
(peyotecoyote@iah.com)
"I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom,
I want goodness. I want sin." - Aldous Huxley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Timothy Franklin Thomas <tt324696@OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <348F7C57.D5A@eunet.yu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On the rational level THE religion would be the one respectful of all
differences. Unfortunately all religions were created by man and man is a
long way from being tolerant. Redemption is alas only a fabricated concept
that man uses to excuse his indescretions. The search for redemption,
a human flaw of which I also possess, can be satisfied by the smallest of
acts. It is up to the one in need of redemption to realize what will
satisfy his conscious. It can certainly be something as simple as Patricia
says "cum and tears." Jack could find no satisfaction, Allen on the
otherhand found it in abundance.
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Ksenija Simic wrote:
> kerouac and other beats seemed
> > to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
> > that--religions created by man. in order to be redeemed as a writer or a
> > human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
> > than that.
>
> can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
> you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
> religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
> claiming to be the only one.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:53:17 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Re: A certain Ginsberg picture
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I know what picture you're talking about. It's actually Allen standing
in front of and pointing at a projection of a photo of the Drake Hotel
in San Francisco. It was his inspiration for the 'Moloch' section of
Howl. The photo was taken by Harry Redl in 1959, and can be found in the
Holy Soul Jelly Roll liner notes.
Adrien
Joey Mellott wrote:
>
> On the episode of "The Fifties" on Friday, one of the photos they showed
> was a spectacular picture of Ginsberg standing in a city with a nuclear
> bomb going off in the corner, with him pointing at it in an "I warned you"
> pose. Has anyone else seen this picture. Is there a copy of it online
> somewhere?
>
> Thanks
> Joey Mellott : poet, writer, and progressive subversive
> (peyotecoyote@iah.com)
> "I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom,
> I want goodness. I want sin." - Aldous Huxley
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:31:39 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
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Donald G. Jr. Lee wrote:
>
> Just wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
> Henry Miller. I know he was an influence on Kerouac and that they almost
> met in BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
i really was hoping that they'd meet at Big Sur as i was reading the
book. there was something about that little interaction that seemed to
me to provide some kind of hope of Jack connecting with HM and finding
some wisdom about how to survive aging and whatnot from him. several
times as things were going from bad to worse i found myself saying --
really a shame he didn't have a chance to meet Henry Miller.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>
> Cordially,
> Don Lee
> Fayetteville, Ark.
>
> "We are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
> full. But we are all potentially free. We can stop thinking of what we
> have failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
> powers that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
> are infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
> imagination is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
> --Henry Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:51:00 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.971210193923.14165A-100000@comp>
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aAt 19:40 10/12/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Just wondering, as a possibility for a new thread, what you all think of
>Henry Miller. I know he was an influence on Kerouac and that they almost
>met in BIG SUR, but anyhow...any thoughts?
>
>Cordially,
>Don Lee
>Fayetteville, Ark.
>
>"We are all guilty of crime, the great crime of not living life to the
>full. But we are all potentially free. We can stop thinking of what we
>have failed to do and do whatever lies within our power. What those
>powers that are in us may be no one has truly dared to imagine. That they
>are infinite we will realize the day we admit to ourselves that
>imagination is everything. Imagination is the voice of daring."
> --Henry Miller
>
I have the book "Conversations With Henry Miller". In it, he makes a few
comments about Kerouac. He says Kerouac has a "marvelous natural verbal
facility, though I think it could stand a bit of disciplining." he says
Dharma Bums is his favourite. He also sites Burroughs as a man of talent,
though some of his stuff "makes him sick".
Glenn C.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Life does not imitate art, it imitates bad TV.
-- Woody Allen
--------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:09:48 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption and clickityclickitytraintracks
In-Reply-To: <199712111943.OAA24953@pike.sover.net>
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>mc, december whatevah....
MC,
I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
dates and times still on?
I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
I, or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
poet from the crowd.
Scanning the crowd looking for.... I know, I know. You'll be wearing a
poem in your lapel.
With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems do get around.
jo
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:47:55 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
Reply to message from rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG of Thu, 11 Dec
>
>This is interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
>and he said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
>Jack Kerouac.
>
>I then remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
>Road" came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
>enrolled in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
>attended.
>
>The book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
>Marilyn Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good match, a beautiful woman
>who liked to drink as much as Jack did.
>
>But more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
I can't be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as the
leading gal who had these enormous thumbs. But anyway....of what I read of
the book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story to the
leading character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about how
they met hitchhiking...pretty funny. This post reminded me of that book.
Diane.
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:50:46 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: Re: redemption
Reply to message from country@SOVER.NET of Thu, 11 Dec
>
>RACE --- wrote:
>
>> the internal includes the external and the external includes the
>> internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
>>
>> _____
>
>if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
> who
>is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
>hi dave
"I am I, he is he, she is she, and you are a horse." Croatian saying my
grandmother used to say, but I don't remebmer the Croatian (and if I did, I
couldn't spell it). :)
Diane.
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:11:03 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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Diane M. Homza wrote:
>
>
> Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
> I can't be more vague)....
sure you could be more vague! Did anybody read the book ... can't
remember the title it was paperback and i bought it in that bookstore in
Boulder -- you know the one -- i think it was green (the book not the
bookstore - the bookstore was orange)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. i'll be quiet now!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:13:33 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption and clickityclickitytraintracks
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jo grant wrote:
>
> >mc, december whatevah....
>
> MC,
>
> I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
> Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
> dates and times still on?
>
> I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
> long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
> city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
>
> Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
> are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
> I, or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
> poet from the crowd.
>
> Scanning the crowd looking for.... I know, I know. You'll be wearing a
> poem in your lapel.
>
> With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
> friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
> friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems do get around.
>
> jo
>
this sounds fun!!!!
anybody gonna be in Phoenix over the Holidays?????
i won't give a BEAT IQ test cuz i'd probably flunk it.
i won't have a lapel - so i'll have to stick a poem somewhere else
<grin>
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:23:46 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 09:11 PM 12/11/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>Diane M. Homza wrote:
>>
>>
>> Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
>> I can't be more vague)....
>
>sure you could be more vague! Did anybody read the book ... can't
>remember the title it was paperback and i bought it in that bookstore in
>Boulder -- you know the one -- i think it was green (the book not the
>bookstore - the bookstore was orange)
_Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
(cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:11:51 +1000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: John Pullicino <jjpull@PAC.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.971209105728.23884A-100000@am.appstate.edu>
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what was a failure was the ersatz madisonavenue/timemagazine conscription
of the 'beat movement' - it failed to hear to respect and to understand the
new voices that spoke into the hollow void left by the wartime
propagandahowl when the boys came home, and it failed to confront its own
postwar meaningless chromecar cocktail and cookingmachine suburban
imperative of 'time to have babies again - we beat the fuckers'
--
bye for now,
j o h n P
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:35:59 -0500
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From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Musical Instruments from the Tomb of Tutankhamun.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Rinaldo.....Hi,
I tried to go to the Tutankhamun site, but address didn't work. Any
ideas?
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:06:17 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
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i call him joe because he calls me joe. when carl is with us, he is also
joe. everybody is joe because it's easier that way. at the same time, it
is a reminder thatone should not take himself too seriously.
henry miller, tropic of cancer
(this was translated from serbian, so it's probably somewhat different
from the original text; the meaning, however, is the same)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:50:12 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: explanation "Pinocchio".
In-Reply-To: <01bd0649$5d386c40$aa716086@ritzo>
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amici,
Pinocchio is a puppet who was made by wood
then became a real man. that'a all in italy.
saluti, Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:56:04 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:06 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Ksenija Simic wrote:
>i call him joe because he calls me joe. when carl is
>with us, he is also joe. everybody is joe because it's
>easier that way. at the same time, it
>is a reminder thatone should not take himself
>too seriously.
>
>henry miller, tropic of cancer
>
>(this was translated from serbian, so it's probably somewhat different
>from the original text; the meaning, however, is the same)
Or as Dylan said in "Gotta Serve Somebody:"
"You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy,
You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy,
You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray,
You may call me anything but no matter what you say
You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed
You're gonna have to serve somebody.
Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody."
>From a time when Dylan took things too seriously. . . {;^>
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:10:36 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption and clickityclickitytraintracks
In-Reply-To: <3490ABDD.76FC@midusa.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>jo grant wrote:
>>
>> >mc, december whatevah....
>>
>> MC,
>>
>> I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
>> Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
>> dates and times still on?
>>
>> I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
>> long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
>> city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
>>
>> Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
>> are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
>> I, or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
>> poet from the crowd.
>>
>> Scanning the crowd looking for.... I know, I know. You'll be wearing a
>> poem in your lapel.
>>
>> With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
>> friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
>> friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems do get around.
>>
>> jo
>>
>this sounds fun!!!!
>anybody gonna be in Phoenix over the Holidays?????
>i won't give a BEAT IQ test cuz i'd probably flunk it.
>i won't have a lapel - so i'll have to stick a poem somewhere else
><grin>
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
David,
I feel redemption just around the corner. I screw up, space a post,waste
list space and manage to keep my foot out of my mouth. Something good is
going happen.
Good friend you might have enjoyed meeting called today and informed me
she's on her way to Switzerland for a month-long holiday.
Three years ago we moved to Madison from Tempe. Eight years down there. I
love the north country, but damned if I didn't fall in love with the desert
as soon as I experienced it.
While you're there take a hike up Echo Canyon.
jo
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:56:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (trumpet) Golem Tutankhamun.
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Antoine and friends,
(in the film titled fift element by Luc Bresson?) anyway the
the legend at italian rai broadcasting corporation
the best site about the egyptian trumpets
played in the 1939. in this site there's
a reverse sound of the tutankhamun trumpet and others info...
tutankhamun trumpets summary
check first!
http://www.rai.it/grr/golem/
http://www.rai.it/grr/golem/maniaci/trombfrm.htm
any comments and ideas email the golem at
golem@rai.it
************
other web site
Hans van den Berg
http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/trumpet.html
and
http://www.amargiland.com/hall-of-records/tuts.trumpet.html
this sites attention... that who are used to connect to internet
via trumpet.exe file maybe there's be a overwriting of the
file by the tutankhamun trumpet file so...
i hope this help, if necessary other info email me
saluti,
Rinaldo.
--------
Antoine wrote:
>Rinaldo.....Hi,
>
> I tried to go to the Tutankhamun site, but address didn't work. Any
>ideas?
>
> Antoine
> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
>
> "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
>cease to be amused."
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:54:39 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption and clickityclickitytraintracks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
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hi jo! yes, you have date and layover time correctly. i'll be wearing
carnations bloom'n outta me bloomn' ears.
seriously, to be met by anyone, and to have help with luggage and perhaps a
bought in advance real food like grinder/hoagie, what ever it is called.
and i will exchange for tape just made that (despite absolutley insanne
laughter after a 3x blooped line, ) is a much better repesentation of both
reading and poem updates.
you're right about lack of time, but some companionship and someone to help me
stay oriented sure would be nice.
marie
jo grant wrote:
> >mc, december whatevah....
>
> MC,
>
> I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
> Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
> dates and times still on?
>
> I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
> long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
> city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
>
> Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
> are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
> I, or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
> poet from the crowd.
>
> Scanning the crowd looking for.... I know, I know. You'll be wearing a
> poem in your lapel.
>
> With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
> friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
> friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems do get around.
>
> jo
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 05:59:53 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: even cow girls get the blues
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> tom robbins wrote it i believe.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:01:50 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption and clickityclickitytraintracks
MIME-Version: 1.0
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no beat iq test and i can be immediatly recognized by carnations bloomn' outta
me bloom' ears, eh?
mc
RACE --- wrote:
> jo grant wrote:
> >
> > >mc, december whatevah....
> >
> > MC,
> >
> > I'm looking at my calender and see that the 16th is rapidly approaching.
> > Chicago layover 3:05 to 6:00 P.M. Train station. That's next tuesday. Are
> > dates and times still on?
> >
> > I'm going to try to make it. If I can't I'm going to check with a couple of
> > long-time friends to see if one of them will graciously welcome you to the
> > city and see you safely on your way 170 minutes later.
> >
> > Itdoesn't leave much time for feasting, or sightseeing, but if the times
> > are stillon, and your host doesn't have to pass any Beat Lit tests, either
> > I, or (hopefully) an old co-conspirator, might be trying to pick out the
> > poet from the crowd.
> >
> > Scanning the crowd looking for.... I know, I know. You'll be wearing a
> > poem in your lapel.
> >
> > With a little luck your poetry tape will arrive on Saturday. Daughter's
> > friend has just had it returned from a her friend who left it with a
> > friendin Bisbee, AZ. You and your poems do get around.
> >
> > jo
> >
> this sounds fun!!!!
> anybody gonna be in Phoenix over the Holidays?????
> i won't give a BEAT IQ test cuz i'd probably flunk it.
> i won't have a lapel - so i'll have to stick a poem somewhere else
> <grin>
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:20:28 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-12 00:01:03 EST, you write:
<< i bought it in that bookstore in
Boulder -- you know the one -- i think it was green (the book not the
bookstore - the bookstore was orange)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. i'll be quiet now!
>>
chuckle, chuckle, chuckle....I'm encouraging your behavior.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:21:58 EST
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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In a message dated 97-12-12 00:15:06 EST, you write:
<<
_Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
(cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
Mike >>
This is a rib, right?!? Say it isn't so! Please.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:43:09 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Timothy Franklin Thomas wrote:
>
> On the rational level THE religion would be the one respectful of all
> differences. Unfortunately all religions were created by man and man is a
> long way from being tolerant. Redemption is alas only a fabricated concept
> that man uses to excuse his indescretions. The search for redemption,
> a human flaw of which I also possess, can be satisfied by the smallest of
> acts. It is up to the one in need of redemption to realize what will
> satisfy his conscious. It can certainly be something as simple as Patricia
> says "cum and tears." Jack could find no satisfaction, Allen on the
> otherhand found it in abundance.
>
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Ksenija Simic wrote:
>
> > kerouac and other beats seemed
> > > to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
> > > that--religions created by man. in order to be redeemed as a writer or a
> > > human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
> > > than that.
> >
> > can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
> > you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
> > religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
> > claiming to be the only one.
> >
Back from four hours of truckstop reading of Vanity of D. and read this
note and i just don't understand the notion of Jack finding "no
satisfaction". Sure he was honest and open about his dissastisfactions
- much more than most of us are i imagine ... but why this near
consensus i get that Jack found no satisfaction? It seems an awfully
negative impression of him. I mean, sure - if i decide to take a very
intolerant view of people who drink to excess AND am angry that he died
young then i can read all his stuff and come out with this tragedy that
can bum me to the depths of torture-hell-and-back. But he's also such a
beautiful writer about people and places and hilarious sometimes.
Vanity is going so slow caused it's such a fucking FUNNY book! And so
it seems like we often go a bit overboard in this whole Jack don't get
no satisfaction kinda thing (mick jagger playing flute on the soundtrack
of this post) and perhaps it is that we (speaking for my attitude
sometimes too) don't get satisfaction out of jack cuz we won't forgive
or be tolerant of the life choices he made - which is hilarious to me in
its own way (and i gotta wonder if Jack doesn't just laugh at all of us
sometimes where-ever he is -- probably reincarnated as a computer
keyboard or something ---- who knows)....but the point i was trying to
make is that it seems like way over-stating the case to say Jack found
no satisfaction - - - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz it
ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
i won't.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. still have this DAMN cold!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:44:21 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 09:11 PM 12/11/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
> >Diane M. Homza wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title
(sorry
> >> I can't be more vague)....
> >
> >sure you could be more vague! Did anybody read the book ... can't
> >remember the title it was paperback and i bought it in that bookstore in
> >Boulder -- you know the one -- i think it was green (the book not the
> >bookstore - the bookstore was orange)
>
> _Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
>
> (cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
>
> Mike
were you able to figure this out from MY clues???? WOW!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 07:45:17 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> RACE --- wrote:
>
> > the internal includes the external and the external includes the
> > internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
> >
> > _____
>
> if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman, than
> who
> is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
> hi dave
he lives in Wichita. no kidding!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:09:35 -0500
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From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
Comments: To: edixon@excalnet.com, ddd@splab.org, jubilo@maui.com,
mdickste@email.gc.cuny.edu, gdavid@northlink.com, crosby@nevada.edu,
creeley@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu, 0003301643@MCIMAIL.COM,
slamgran@ix.netcom.com, sc@media.mit.edu, nancyp@wenet.net,
sparky@ecafe.org, dillo@ohww.norman.ok.us, BretthA@aol.com,
rbove@duke.poly.edu, candida@numb.ie, FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,
jablonk@pi.net, lew.blanck@usa.net, vbippart@sover.net,
bigchief@bigmagic.com, belile@earthlink.net, beacham@radiomail.net,
frank@beacham.com, ducksquack@hotmail.com, kenk@efn.org,
BALLGV@vmi.edu, AB11@erols.com, barlow@eff.org, brooklyn@netcom.com,
MAndre@aol.com, lamram1027@aol.com, aifsprag@mbox.vol.cz,
HDREALITY@aol.com, acker@easynet.co.uk, GAMuse@slip.net
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The NYC Parks Dept. has approved June 12 for an all-day event in Central
Park open to all. For June 13, Amiri Baraka is working on obtaining
the Newark,NJ, brand new Performing Arts Center for a more formalized
event for which tickets will be sold and at which a VIP reception can
be held. Either Newark s PAC or Newark s Symphony Hall. The more
formalized event in Newark will take place during the p.m. Baraka also
is trying to obtain Newark s Weequahic Park Stadium for further events
that evening (of June 13). We are starting tp work on putting together
a cast for the show, which will include music, performances and
readings. Sharon Levy, an L.A. organizer indicates that, after L.A. s
very successful Ginsberg memorial, the L.A. people are more or less sort
of "tributed out" on Allen and prefer the Central Park event to be more
of a Beat celebration that also honors W.S.Burroughs. And
so we propose to call the event AN INTERNATIONAL CONVOCATION OF THE
BEST
MINDS, gathered to celebrate the "Beat" impact and to honor Allen
Ginsberg and William
Burroughs. Please mark June 12 and 13 on your calendars and let me know
if you wish to
participate in the program and what you would like to read, perform or
otherwise do once you are on stage at the microphone. So far, we have
vnfirmed for sure: David Amram, musician extraordinaire; Ellis Paul,
singer-songwriter, Hayes Greenfield, saxophonist extraordinaire. In
addition, I am pleased to announce that George N. Tobia Jr., a partner
in the firm of Burns & Levinson, a specialist in entertainment law and
attorney for the Jack Kerouac estate, has agreed to act as counsel to
THE ALLEN
GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE. In addition, John Scher, promoter of the
Grateful Dead concerts in Giant Stadium and other such large venues, has
agreed to act as producer. Please spread the word. Best, Al Aronowitz,
secretary, THE ALLEN GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE.
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:33:17 -0500
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From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
Comments: To: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>
In-Reply-To: <349153AF.3BDC@bigmagic.com>
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Sounds cool...can I suggest that Gerry Nicosia be invited to speak at
this event. This would be a terrific place for Gerry to talk about the
Kerouac estate battle, and raise funds for his lawsuits (he has two as I
understand it, one pertaining to moving and preserving the "Memory Babe"
archives and one pertaining to his efforts to carry out Kerouac's
daughters wishes concerning Jack's papers)
Id suggest, to be fair, to invite John Sampas as well, but I gather he'd
only appear if Nicosia was expressly NOT invited.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:41:23 -0500
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From: "john v. omlor" <omlor@PACKET.NET>
Subject: "By Way of Introduction"
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Strange. Every now and then I feel compelled to post a piece here just to
let someone know I'm still writing. Anyway, here's a small prose poem you
can feel free to skip right over.
-- J.
***************************************************
By Way of Introduction
She comes out of the door slowly, pulling a heavy coat over her shoulders
to protect hereself against a biting wind. She is lost in thought but
still knows, somehow, to make the proper turns and avoid the posts that
line the street. When she opens the door to the small room at the end of
the hall and turns on the light the sounds echo in solitude and lonliness
and serious business. On the desk waits a small notebook, white pages, a
handful of mismatched pens and a bottle of wine. There is music in the
room, joyous, and yet with an echo of solemnity. There is dance in the
room, passionate and excited and vibrant and never stopping and spilling
over in excess and sweat and pleading and raw energy. There is passion in
the room, begging and being begged and fulfilling and being fulfilled,
tasting and being tasted, losing and being lost. There is work in the
room, dilligent and disciplined and determined and direct, carrying care
and caution and throwing itself often into courageous speculation. And
there are the smells, warm bread, fresh fruits, simmering sauces, heavy
coffees and delicate teas. And of course, there is silence in the room,
sometimes wonderful sometimes horrible; sometimes healing sometimes
painful; sometimes isolating and sometimes self-defining. And finally,
there is love in the room, a capacity for sharing and for soft gifts and
for genuine, simple care that gives the room its light. As she sits at the
desk and lifts the glass to her lips a smile creeps out of the corner of
her mouth and her eyes set off small fires.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:22:35 -0800
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From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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> RACE wrote:
- - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
> satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
> person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
> it
> ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
I don't think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
confused. Kerouac did write things that were hilarious, he wrote about
"living" life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
find a great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
beans, loving his cat, and even a good "high." To say that he also was
involved in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
moments. We've talked before here about epiphany in his works. In my
mind one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
needing or finding redemption. Sometimes in reading Kerouac it is as if
he expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
finds the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
no closer to finding the key. The need for redemption is also something
that comes from growing up in a Christian religion. What I think is at
the heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
moments of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:05:14 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
Comments: To: Al Aronowitz <blackj@bigmagic.com>
In-Reply-To: <349153AF.3BDC@bigmagic.com>
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> addition, I am pleased to announce that George N. Tobia Jr., a partner
> in the firm of Burns & Levinson, a specialist in entertainment law and
> attorney for the Jack Kerouac estate, has agreed to act as counsel to
> THE ALLEN
> GINSBERG MEMORIAL COMMITTEE. In addition, John Scher, promoter of the
hmm though...I wonder if Tobia would back out himself if Nicosia was
one of the speakers.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:54:43 EST
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From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: truly beat?
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In a message dated 97-12-12 02:04:21 EST, you write:
<< don't want to tackle this question, defining "truly beat", because it is
an
impossible ideal. there are no formulas for living only that you be
oneself,
be self-aware, self-understanding, open-eyed and open-eared and honest. for
each person this is different, >>
okay okay okay,
i suppose i didn't phrase my question the right way. i wasn't really looking
for a definition. i just wanted your ideas on what you thought that guy who
wrote the article meant when he said, "to be truly beat...blah blah blah"
should i have just written him off as an idiot and moved on?
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:49:22 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: yikes! And YIKES again
In-Reply-To: <199712121234.HAA12252@pike.sover.net>
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>
>Marie Countryman wrote:
>jo lost yr address, these came flying back, as did yr address. will
>wonders never ceace. ok here goes:
>
> look forward tobany help and companionship riding herd over my giant
>haversacks. and
> maybe something to eat that doen'st resemble train fare or power bars(my
> basic on the road c-rations) and david has already made the whole idea
>fun on the list.
Hey MC,
We'll see what we can do.
Hell I don't even know where the Chicago train station is. Last time I saw
it I was heading south to catch a U. S. Navy destroyer and the North
Koreans, all of China and a sizable section of Russia were trembling in
their boots and a doctor, freezing his buns off in the winter hills of
South Korea was thinking "This medical outpost is crazy. I better start a
journal. There's a book here and maybe a movie."
I'm at:
113 Cambridge Road
Madison, WI 53704-5909
608-246-0759
How about that Al Aronowitz. I'm making plans to throw a sleeping bag in
the old '66 Volvo and head to NYC for that gathering. This is going to make
the gathering for the three tenors look like a Whoopee John Wilfart polka
gig.
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:51:48 -0500
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
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At 07:44 AM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>> _Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
>>
>> (cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
>>
>> Mike
>
>were you able to figure this out from MY clues???? WOW!
Yup, that's what studying for psych finals does to ya.
It boosts the esp powers. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:23:00 -0800
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From: Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
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> Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title
> (sorry
> I can't be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as
> the
> leading gal who had these enormous thumbs. But anyway....of what I
> read of
> the book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story
> to the
> leading character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about
> how
> they met hitchhiking...pretty funny. This post reminded me of that
> book.
>
> Diane.
>
Such irony. An old girlfriend gave me this book, saying that it was
better than all those Kerouac books I was reading. I was never able to
get into it, and even now it sits in my books-started stack. Maybe
I'll read on until she meets JK. I don't know how many Robbins fans
there are on this list, but we might be due for a discussion here. Any
Robbins readers up for a comparison vs. the Beats?
-E
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:02:30 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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i've been confused and i'm guessing it goes back to that pesky word
redemption in the first place.
Diane Carter wrote:
>
> > RACE wrote:
>
> - - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
> > satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
> > person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
> > it
> > ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>
> I don't think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
> confused. Kerouac did write things that were hilarious, he wrote about
> "living" life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
> find a great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
> beans, loving his cat, and even a good "high."
It seems to me that the depth of satisfaction he finds or shows in these
sorts of things are beautiful examples of finding redemption (with a
small "r" i guess) in THIS life.
To say that he also was
> involved in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
> moments. We've talked before here about epiphany in his works. In my
> mind one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
> needing or finding redemption.
It seems that at the moment of these events (eternal moments i suppose)
that a person is as redeemed as possible in THIS life because the forms
of human separation felt so deeply by some are erased and absent.
Sometimes in reading Kerouac it is as if
> he expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
> finds the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
> no closer to finding the key.
I think it's like he finds the key and drops it along the highway and
has to go find it again!
The need for redemption is also something
> that comes from growing up in a Christian religion. What I think is at
> the heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
> moments of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
Now these i think begin to push towards notions of redemption BEYOND
THIS life. Perhaps i'm mistaken. And i suppose that the specific
upbringing is magnified by the death of Gerard (and the question of why
did he die instead of me?) and if these are the notions of redemption
than i may be flip-flopping again (though i don't know why nobody ever
seemed to slap him and say Gerard could have grown up to be other than a
saint - he could have CHANGED and become quite the mouse-killer a mass
murdering mouse-killer and the nuns who used saint were speaking out of
turn and at most figuratively b/c as far as i know old gerard was never
put through the whole sainthood ordeal with passing marks after his
death)
> And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
> life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
but the legend as a whole he "says" is a comedy. of course, i guess the
tragedy could be him thinking comedy in tragedy and then someone might
find the comic in that and it could go on and on and on.....
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
p.s. called some receptionist an idiot over the phone but finally got a
doctor's appointment for my cold :)
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:10:54 -0800
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From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
In-Reply-To: <34918104.8E217BCB@ced.utah.edu>
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On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Eric Lytle wrote:
> Any Robbins readers up for a comparison vs. the Beats?
11:20pm Baltimore 1985, frigid winter, 19, college, no car. I'd been out
with Melissa 17 all morning and afternoon and evening, no buses or trains
back to Annapolis till dawn. Landlord wanted her for himself - no
overnight men in her room allowed. Stood at the landlord's stairs while
she went up then descended. In her hands were two novels to keep company
at donut shop: Vonnegut "Slapstick," Robbins "Still Life With Woodpecker."
Had few dozen cents pressed against return bus Annapolis ticket in pocket
- enough for two cups all night coffee. Into chrome and glass and
gold-flecked plastic sheet countertop donut shop, husbanded coins for
later, sat and opened Vonnegut. Strange and heartless. Finished then
ordered coffee cup. Opened Robbins and faint impression of colored light
and a smiling face that wrote these words. Second cup of coffee during
_Still Life With Woodpecker_, finished book at 2am and then sat in donut
shop, talked with wise wino bums ("Those are good hands you have there.
You should be a concert pianist at the Conservatory with those hands."),
talked with their taciturn brother behind the counter, grizzled big adam's
apple short man angrily shoving donuts on sheets into frier, and stared
out glossy window at static night sky, waiting for dawn and slight warmth
and motion and busses running again.
Dawn came after immortal hours of boredom. Melissa's landlord's house was
on way to bus depot, dropped books into single mailbox with scribbled note
on taken paper with borrowed pen: "Stream of unconsciousness."
Colored light, smiling face, stream of unconsciousness. That's been
the best of Robbins for me ever since.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a hidden intention."
- Brian Eno
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:19:34 -0800
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From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <34917C36.3144@midusa.net>
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On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> i've been confused and i'm guessing it goes back to that pesky word
> redemption in the first place.
"From what, and to what, could this infinite whirl be saved?"
- D.H. Lawrence
in _The Man Who Died_
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a hidden intention."
- Brian Eno
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:44:47 +0100
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From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Creeley at 70 - October, 1996.
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Baraka could've no less stormed the stage than if he had been backed by the
John Coltrane quartet itself. Baraka's small build gives one no preparation
for the immense vision, rhythm, voicing, and cadences that will emerge from
the flaming words of his performance. Invoking as central to the Yugen of
Baraka's earlier years, "the big three" of the magazine, Ginsberg (is that
right?), big Charlie Olson, and Bob Creeley. (Sorrentino, by the way, also
appeared in Yugen.) Baraka paid homage to Creeley then performed from
Transbluecency and his more recent Funk Lore (Los Angeles: Littoral Books,
1996). Baraka's humming, chanting, and vocal renditions of the standards-a
la-Baraka were in perfect accord with the chords still lingering, clinging
to the packed, overflowing theatre. No printed text can do this! People
filling all seats, people on all sides, standing, squatting, spilling out
into the Hallwalls' hallway. Blues, transblues, transvoicings, the
unbelievable coup d'etats of Baraka's "lowcoups" (African American version
of that knock-out blast commonly associated with the haiku), and his
closing triumph (slaves, dig, we were once slaves). Indeed, it was about
people, what we are, the rhythms that vibrate through one and the same.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:53:14 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Creeley at 70 - October, 1996.
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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> Baraka could've no less stormed the stage than if he had been backed by the
> John Coltrane quartet itself. Baraka's small build gives one no preparation
> for the immense vision, rhythm, voicing, and cadences that will emerge from
> the flaming words of his performance. Invoking as central to the Yugen of
> Baraka's earlier years, "the big three" of the magazine, Ginsberg (is that
> right?), big Charlie Olson, and Bob Creeley. (Sorrentino, by the way, also
> appeared in Yugen.) Baraka paid homage to Creeley then performed from
> Transbluecency and his more recent Funk Lore (Los Angeles: Littoral Books,
> 1996). Baraka's humming, chanting, and vocal renditions of the standards-a
> la-Baraka were in perfect accord with the chords still lingering, clinging
> to the packed, overflowing theatre. No printed text can do this! People
> filling all seats, people on all sides, standing, squatting, spilling out
> into the Hallwalls' hallway. Blues, transblues, transvoicings, the
> unbelievable coup d'etats of Baraka's "lowcoups" (African American version
> of that knock-out blast commonly associated with the haiku), and his
> closing triumph (slaves, dig, we were once slaves). Indeed, it was about
> people, what we are, the rhythms that vibrate through one and the same.
RINALDO: Is this your prose? Or poetry, if y'wanna callit that. It's
fuckin beautiful and absolutely hits the nail on the head! That's the
Baraka I know! --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:00:22 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Hemenway . Mark" <MHemenway@DRC.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Beat Movement a Failure
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I didn't think there was a beat movement. Just a bunch of guys (mostly),
some of whom talked about beatness and tried to be authentic individuals
in their time and place. Hell, they never even agreed on what the word
meant, thereby providing us endless hours of enjoyment debating the
same.
"If you can talk about it, it ain't the tao."
"If it's got a name, it ain't the tao. "
Mark Hemenway
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:10:00 EST
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
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God! I tried reading that book too! the back blurb about Kerouac got me to buy
it- what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a serious
one- much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
interesting.
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:15:10 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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armong arms laden with wine
dniffing off the nustthat driftsinter yr ears
thanks.
will have boris and natacha on lookout
from train platrorm
scully
RACE --- wrote:
> Marie Countryman wrote:
> >
> > RACE --- wrote:
> >
> > > the internal includes the external and the external includes the
> > > internal one of the grand mysteries of being.
> > >
> > > _____
> >
> > if i am me and you are she and they are me... and someone is the eggman,
than
> > who
> > is the walrus?large mammals want to know.
> > hi dave
>
> he lives in Wichita. no kidding!
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:19:14 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: yikes! And YIKES again
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you kickle me, you really do.
mc
whatever happens will be an adventure; perhaps an adventure told to you, and
not starring you(as was my wont), but you wiil be there, a truffaut or
fellini character, there immediately outofand into place, like a burroughs
caracter, hell by wsb hisself....
i do go on, don't i
mc
jo grant wrote:
> >
> >Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> >jo lost yr address, these came flying back, as did yr address. will
> >wonders never ceace. ok here goes:
> >
> > look forward tobany help and companionship riding herd over my giant
> >haversacks. and
> > maybe something to eat that doen'st resemble train fare or power bars(my
> > basic on the road c-rations) and david has already made the whole idea
> >fun on the list.
>
> Hey MC,
>
> We'll see what we can do.
>
> Hell I don't even know where the Chicago train station is. Last time I saw
> it I was heading south to catch a U. S. Navy destroyer and the North
> Koreans, all of China and a sizable section of Russia were trembling in
> their boots and a doctor, freezing his buns off in the winter hills of
> South Korea was thinking "This medical outpost is crazy. I better start a
> journal. There's a book here and maybe a movie."
>
> I'm at:
> 113 Cambridge Road
> Madison, WI 53704-5909
> 608-246-0759
>
> How about that Al Aronowitz. I'm making plans to throw a sleeping bag in
> the old '66 Volvo and head to NYC for that gathering. This is going to make
> the gathering for the three tenors look like a Whoopee John Wilfart polka
> gig.
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:22:05 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: "By Way of Introduction"
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keep on giving into those urges to write, and send them out to us, angel mine.
mc
john v. omlor wrote:
> Strange. Every now and then I feel compelled to post a piece here just to
> let someone know I'm still writing. Anyway, here's a small prose poem you
> can feel free to skip right over.
>
> -- J.
>
> ***************************************************
>
> By Way of Introduction
>
> She comes out of the door slowly, pulling a heavy coat over her shoulders
> to protect hereself against a biting wind. She is lost in thought but
> still knows, somehow, to make the proper turns and avoid the posts that
> line the street. When she opens the door to the small room at the end of
> the hall and turns on the light the sounds echo in solitude and lonliness
> and serious business. On the desk waits a small notebook, white pages, a
> handful of mismatched pens and a bottle of wine. There is music in the
> room, joyous, and yet with an echo of solemnity. There is dance in the
> room, passionate and excited and vibrant and never stopping and spilling
> over in excess and sweat and pleading and raw energy. There is passion in
> the room, begging and being begged and fulfilling and being fulfilled,
> tasting and being tasted, losing and being lost. There is work in the
> room, dilligent and disciplined and determined and direct, carrying care
> and caution and throwing itself often into courageous speculation. And
> there are the smells, warm bread, fresh fruits, simmering sauces, heavy
> coffees and delicate teas. And of course, there is silence in the room,
> sometimes wonderful sometimes horrible; sometimes healing sometimes
> painful; sometimes isolating and sometimes self-defining. And finally,
> there is love in the room, a capacity for sharing and for soft gifts and
> for genuine, simple care that gives the room its light. As she sits at the
> desk and lifts the glass to her lips a smile creeps out of the corner of
> her mouth and her eyes set off small fires.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:43:06 +0000
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From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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rave on dear racer!
mc
love this reply
RACE --- wrote:
> Timothy Franklin Thomas wrote:
> >
> > On the rational level THE religion would be the one respectful of all
> > differences. Unfortunately all religions were created by man and man is a
> > long way from being tolerant. Redemption is alas only a fabricated concept
> > that man uses to excuse his indescretions. The search for redemption,
> > a human flaw of which I also possess, can be satisfied by the smallest of
> > acts. It is up to the one in need of redemption to realize what will
> > satisfy his conscious. It can certainly be something as simple as Patricia
> > says "cum and tears." Jack could find no satisfaction, Allen on the
> > otherhand found it in abundance.
> >
> > On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Ksenija Simic wrote:
> >
> > > kerouac and other beats seemed
> > > > to look for redemption in the religions of the east, but those are just
> > > > that--religions created by man. in order to be redeemed as a writer or
a
> > > > human being, it is imperative that we find something far more spiritual
> > > > than that.
> > >
> > > can you explain this? i agree with you to a large extent. but, why do
> > > you feel that this is the only truly spiritual religion? i feel that The
> > > religion would be the one respectful of all the differences and not
> > > claiming to be the only one.
> > >
> Back from four hours of truckstop reading of Vanity of D. and read this
> note and i just don't understand the notion of Jack finding "no
> satisfaction". Sure he was honest and open about his dissastisfactions
> - much more than most of us are i imagine ... but why this near
> consensus i get that Jack found no satisfaction? It seems an awfully
> negative impression of him. I mean, sure - if i decide to take a very
> intolerant view of people who drink to excess AND am angry that he died
> young then i can read all his stuff and come out with this tragedy that
> can bum me to the depths of torture-hell-and-back. But he's also such a
> beautiful writer about people and places and hilarious sometimes.
> Vanity is going so slow caused it's such a fucking FUNNY book! And so
> it seems like we often go a bit overboard in this whole Jack don't get
> no satisfaction kinda thing (mick jagger playing flute on the soundtrack
> of this post) and perhaps it is that we (speaking for my attitude
> sometimes too) don't get satisfaction out of jack cuz we won't forgive
> or be tolerant of the life choices he made - which is hilarious to me in
> its own way (and i gotta wonder if Jack doesn't just laugh at all of us
> sometimes where-ever he is -- probably reincarnated as a computer
> keyboard or something ---- who knows)....but the point i was trying to
> make is that it seems like way over-stating the case to say Jack found
> no satisfaction - - - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
> satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
> person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz it
> ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>
> i won't.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
> p.s. still have this DAMN cold!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:45:36 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: oh is my face red.
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sorry i got myself all turned around here today. think i posted private
posts here. can't remember which ones. damn!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:56:28 -0500
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From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971212102835.285A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
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On 12-12 Richard Wallner wrote
>Sounds cool...can I suggest that Gerry Nicosia be invited to speak at
>this event. This would be a terrific place for Gerry to talk about the
>Kerouac estate battle, and raise funds for his lawsuits (he has two as I
>understand it, one pertaining to moving and preserving the "Memory Babe"
>archives and one pertaining to his efforts to carry out Kerouac's
>daughters wishes concerning Jack's papers)
>
>Id suggest, to be fair, to invite John Sampas as well, but I gather he'd
>only appear if Nicosia was expressly NOT invited.
\Richard:
Sounds cool. Sounds VERY, VERY cool. And this gets cc'd to Al Aronowitz so
he can give some thought to your recommendation.
That's going to be a busy day and night in Central Park. Probably attract
Beats from around the world. I'll bet that audience would love a 15 minute
break. Five minutes for John Sampas. Then five minutes for Gerry Nicosia.
Then give each of them 2 minutes to respond and let the mass of Beats get a
taste of what the litigation is all about.
And then let the courts decide.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:00:20 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: oh is my face red.
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Marie Countryman wrote:
>
> sorry i got myself all turned around here today. think i posted private
> posts here. can't remember which ones. damn!
> mc
heh heh heh -- it happens to the best of us ... some guy named joe in
western lands not knowing which buttons to push ... we've all got the
same damn technician in our collective heads and old joe (petticoat
junction theme in my head) is moving slow at the buttons and pushes
green for red and blue for orange because he was born color-blind and
managed to pass the grand technicians test in the sky because the
technician on grading duty named old joe too (or two don't know which)
happened to be color-blind to and so he'd pushed all the wrong buttons
too and by random coincidence or meaningful synchronistic significance
the errors overlapped perfectly and old joe's scores outdid old joe too
two's scores and old joe took over at the technician post and keeps
hitting those synapses in the collective unconscious that say "sure it's
the wrong button but push it anyway!!! heh heh heh.... and see what
happens ... heh heh heh ... how will we ever know which button is THE
button without some good old fashioned american trial and error
ingenuity ... heh heh heh...." and so the switch is hit and we all
manage to send private to public and public to private and soon there's
lawsuits flying around but then old joe just pushes a button or two in
rehnquists secret diaries and they go on-line and the supreme court is
well let's just say a little less supreme! and so the public figure
doctrine in libel is quickly flip-flopped to protect public figures more
than private figures like we're all statues or something and if this was
going anywhere's i've forgotten what train track it was on -- oh yeah
...there's uncle joe he's a moving kinda slow at the junction....!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:09:30 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
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jo grant wrote:
> Five minutes for John Sampas. Then five minutes for Gerry Nicosia.
> Then give each of them 2 minutes to respond and let the mass of Beats get a
> taste of what the litigation is all about.
but please no eye-gouging!!!!!!!!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>
> And then let the courts decide.
>
> j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:15:51 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: JUNE 12 & 13, 1998
In-Reply-To: <v03110706b0b7378cd537@[156.46.45.121]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, jo grant wrote:
> That's going to be a busy day and night in Central Park. Probably attract
> Beats from around the world. I'll bet that audience would love a 15 minute
> break. Five minutes for John Sampas. Then five minutes for Gerry Nicosia.
> Then give each of them 2 minutes to respond and let the mass of Beats get a
> taste of what the litigation is all about.
How about a vote by light?
The pro-Nicosia forces could light up candles, and the pro-Sampas forces
could knock them out of the pro-Nicosia hands. ;)
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a hidden intention."
- Brian Eno
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:40:45 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: redemption
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Did Jack give satisfaction?
His writings sure gave rise to all manner of passion. Passionate Readers
with Clues, followers without any. al
Did Jack get no satisfaction? Did he give no satisfaction?
His writing sure gave rise to all manner of readers followers with clues
and with no clue worshippers no clue passions released with heat thirty
years after his death and the flames fanning.
-----Original Message-----
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: redemption
>i've been confused and i'm guessing it goes back to that pesky word
>redemption in the first place.
>
>Diane Carter wrote:
>>
>> > RACE wrote:
>>
>> - - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
>> > satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
>> > person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
>> > it
>> > ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>>
>> I don't think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
>> confused. Kerouac did write things that were hilarious, he wrote about
>> "living" life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
>> find a great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
>> beans, loving his cat, and even a good "high."
>
>It seems to me that the depth of satisfaction he finds or shows in these
>sorts of things are beautiful examples of finding redemption (with a
>small "r" i guess) in THIS life.
>
>To say that he also was
>> involved in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
>> moments. We've talked before here about epiphany in his works. In my
>> mind one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
>> needing or finding redemption.
>
>It seems that at the moment of these events (eternal moments i suppose)
>that a person is as redeemed as possible in THIS life because the forms
>of human separation felt so deeply by some are erased and absent.
>
>Sometimes in reading Kerouac it is as if
>> he expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
>> finds the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
>> no closer to finding the key.
>
>I think it's like he finds the key and drops it along the highway and
>has to go find it again!
>
>The need for redemption is also something
>> that comes from growing up in a Christian religion. What I think is at
>> the heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
>> moments of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
>
>Now these i think begin to push towards notions of redemption BEYOND
>THIS life. Perhaps i'm mistaken. And i suppose that the specific
>upbringing is magnified by the death of Gerard (and the question of why
>did he die instead of me?) and if these are the notions of redemption
>than i may be flip-flopping again (though i don't know why nobody ever
>seemed to slap him and say Gerard could have grown up to be other than a
>saint - he could have CHANGED and become quite the mouse-killer a mass
>murdering mouse-killer and the nuns who used saint were speaking out of
>turn and at most figuratively b/c as far as i know old gerard was never
>put through the whole sainthood ordeal with passing marks after his
>death)
>
>> And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
>> life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>
>but the legend as a whole he "says" is a comedy. of course, i guess the
>tragedy could be him thinking comedy in tragedy and then someone might
>find the comic in that and it could go on and on and on.....
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>
>p.s. called some receptionist an idiot over the phone but finally got a
>doctor's appointment for my cold :)
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:51:49 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Beat Movement a Failure
In-Reply-To: <1017B7AD7D34D111B9C900805FC1D3AE425262@and02.drc.com>
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On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Hemenway . Mark wrote:
> I didn't think there was a beat movement. Just a bunch of guys (mostly),
> some of whom talked about beatness and tried to be authentic individuals
> in their time and place. Hell, they never even agreed on what the word
> meant, thereby providing us endless hours of enjoyment debating the
> same.
W'ayll, now, since Burroughs really helped _start_ Beatness when Ginsberg
came to him as 30-year-old elder statesman and asked him to mediate in the
dispute on what is Art, and Burroughs sniffed that his training with
Alfred Korzybski and General Semantics had taught him that all
abstractions are merely names for groups of particulars ... there's a
"Beat Movement" if that's what you want to call Burroughs, Ginsberg, etc.
If you thoroughly distinguish between abstractions, particulars, groups
of particulars, concepts, and names for them all, you will go far. :)
Was there a Beat Movement? In the normal meaning of the terms, yes. As
much as there was a Romantic Period or Cliassical Period in European art.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
"Honour thy error as a hidden intention."
- Brian Eno
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:48:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: "By Way of Introduction"
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Simply beautiful! thanks John
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:57:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
Comments: To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
In-Reply-To: <199712120247.VAA28706@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Even Cowgirls Get the Blues by Tom Rollins,
book and movie
Mike Rice
At 09:47 PM 12/11/97 -0500, Diane M. Homza wrote:
>Reply to message from rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG of Thu, 11 Dec
>>
>>This is interesting....I was talking to a friend about Marilyn Monroe,
>>and he said he'd read somewhere in the past that she had briefly dated
>>Jack Kerouac.
>>
>>I then remembered a reference in Angel-Headed Hipster, that after "On the
>>Road" came out and Jack was suddenly famous, he got the acting bug and
>>enrolled in the famous Lee Strassberg school of acting, which Monroe
>>attended.
>>
>>The book indeed says that he did know or at least was acquainted with
>>Marilyn Monroe. Maybe it would have been a good match, a beautiful woman
>>who liked to drink as much as Jack did.
>>
>>But more likely it was just a one-night stand I s'pose.
>
>
>Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title (sorry
>I can't be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as the
>leading gal who had these enormous thumbs. But anyway....of what I read of
>the book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story to the
>leading character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about how
>they met hitchhiking...pretty funny. This post reminded me of that book.
>
>Diane.
>
>--
>"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
> --Jack Kerouac
>Diane Marie Homza
>ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:59:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Beat Movement Was A Failure
In-Reply-To: <yam7285.2554.4406896@pac.com.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:11 PM 12/12/97 +1000, John Pullicino wrote:
>what was a failure was the ersatz madisonavenue/timemagazine conscription
>of the 'beat movement' - it failed to hear to respect and to understand the
>new voices that spoke into the hollow void left by the wartime
>propagandahowl when the boys came home, and it failed to confront its own
>postwar meaningless chromecar cocktail and cookingmachine suburban
>imperative of 'time to have babies again - we beat the fuckers'
>
>
>
>--
>bye for now,
>j o h n P
>
>
We did indeed and George Will is very angry about it!
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:03:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: even cow girls get the blues
In-Reply-To: <199712121101.GAA01183@pike.sover.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 05:59 AM 12/12/97 +0000, Marie Countryman wrote:
>> tom robbins wrote it i believe.
>
>mc
>
>
No, it was Easy Rollins!
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:03:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: Jack and Marilyn Monroe?
In-Reply-To: <3ab66b91.34912c68@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:21 AM 12/12/97 EST, DCardKJHS wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-12 00:15:06 EST, you write:
>
><<
> _Even Cowgirls Get The Blues_ - Tom Robbins
>
> (cousin of Tony Robbins - self help guru to the stars) {;^>
>
> Mike >>
>
>This is a rib, right?!? Say it isn't so! Please.
>Dennis
>
>
They're brothers.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:07:45 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
In-Reply-To: <3490F44B.74F6@together.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:22 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:
>> RACE wrote:
>
> - - - - - and i could go on and preach a sermon about
>> satisfaction and redemption and how one person's redemption is another
>> person's hell and my satisfaction may make you puke but that's ok cuz
>> it
>> ain't your trip it's mine and on and on and on -- BUT ....
>
>I don't think redemption and satisfaction in life need necessarily to be
>confused. Kerouac did write things that were hilarious, he wrote about
>"living" life, he wrote about enjoying the simplicity of life. He could
>find a great deal of satisfaction in little things, a can of pork and
>beans, loving his cat, and even a good "high." To say that he also was
>involved in an underlying spiritual search doesn't deny any of his good
>moments. We've talked before here about epiphany in his works. In my
>mind one can fully experience the high and low moments in life without
>needing or finding redemption. Sometimes in reading Kerouac it is as if
>he expects a key to the mystery of life to be handed to him and that he
>finds the deeper he looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions he is
>no closer to finding the key. The need for redemption is also something
>that comes from growing up in a Christian religion. What I think is at
>the heart of Kerouac's work is: What do all the good moments and bad
>moments of life mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
>And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
>life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>DC
>
>
Please, no philosophy, just the facts!
Gradgrind
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:41:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:07 PM 12/12/97 -0500, mike rice wrote:
>At 12:22 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:
>>Sometimes in reading Kerouac it is as if
>>he expects a key to the mystery of life to be
>>handed to him and that he finds the deeper he
>>looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions
>>he is no closer to finding the key.
>>The need for redemption is also something
>>that comes from growing up in a Christian religion.
>>What I think is at the heart of Kerouac's work is:
>>What do all the good moments and bad moments of life
>>mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
>>And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that
>>are equal parts of
>>life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>>DC
>
>Please, no philosophy, just the facts!
>
>Gradgrind
"The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:19:11 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
MIME-Version: 1.0
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 08:07 PM 12/12/97 -0500, mike rice wrote:
>
> >At 12:22 AM 12/12/97 -0800, Diane Carter wrote:
>
> >>Sometimes in reading Kerouac it is as if
> >>he expects a key to the mystery of life to be
> >>handed to him and that he finds the deeper he
> >>looks at both Catholicism and Eastern religions
> >>he is no closer to finding the key.
> >>The need for redemption is also something
> >>that comes from growing up in a Christian religion.
> >>What I think is at the heart of Kerouac's work is:
> >>What do all the good moments and bad moments of life
> >>mean in the face of death? Why do we live only to die?
> >>And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that
> >>are equal parts of
> >>life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
> >>DC
> >
> >Please, no philosophy, just the facts!
> >
> >Gradgrind
>
> "The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
> courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>
> >From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
"What I like about my madness is that it has protected me from the very
beginning against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that i
was the happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to save
myself -- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
faith. As a result, my pure choice did not raise me above anyone.
Without equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
save all of me. If i relegate impossible Salvation to the proproom,
what remains? A whole man, composed of all men and as good as all of
them and no better than any."
from THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:11:14 -0800
Reply-To: gbarker@thegrid.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Anne <gbarker@THEGRID.NET>
Subject: Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
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GTL1951 wrote:
> God! I tried reading that book too! the back blurb about Kerouac got me to buy
> it- what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a serious
> one- much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
> interesting.
> Gene
this is an abomination! My favorite author in the universe is Tom Robbins;
his
books are rich with imagination and beautiful philosophy. Reading this note
broke my heart for a moment, but I have to admit that Cowgirls is not the best
representation of Robbins' work. Actually, Robbins is very similar in choice of
themes to Vonnegut, who I know several of the list members greatly appreciate.
So sad, so sad, Tom Robbins never gets any respect as a serious writer. Perhaps
he is the Kerouac of his generation...but let's not get into that discussion
again.
*Anne*
--------------7F7586EA97A437F58841E910
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<HTML>
<P>GTL1951 wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>God! I tried reading that book too! the back blurb
about Kerouac got me to buy
<BR>it- what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a
serious
<BR>one- much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
<BR>interesting.
<BR> &nbs
p;  
;
Gene</BLOCKQUOTE>
this is an abomination! My favorite author in the universe
is Tom Robbins; his books are rich with imagination and beautiful
philosophy.
Reading this note broke my heart for a moment, but I have to admit that
<U>Cowgirls</U> is not the best representation of Robbins' work.
Actually, Robbins is very similar in choice of themes to Vonnegut, who
I know several of the list members greatly appreciate. So sad, so
sad, Tom Robbins never gets any respect as a serious writer. Perhaps
he is the Kerouac of his generation...but let's not get into that discussion
again.
<BR> *Anne*</HTML>
--------------7F7586EA97A437F58841E910--
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:54:35 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:19 PM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
>M. Cakebread wrote:
>> "The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
>> courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
>>
>> >From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>"What I like about my madness is that it has protected me from the very
>beginning against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that i
>was the happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to save
>myself -- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
>faith. As a result, my pure choice did not raise me above anyone.
>Without equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
>save all of me. If i relegate impossible Salvation to the proproom,
>what remains? A whole man, composed of all men and as good as all of
>them and no better than any."
>
>from THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
"The consequences of our actions take hold of us,
quite indifferent to our claim that meanwhile we
have 'improved.' "
>From _Beyond Good And Evil_ by Friedrich Nietzsche
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:57:44 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
MIME-Version: 1.0
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M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> At 10:19 PM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
> >M. Cakebread wrote:
>
> >> "The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
> >> courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
> >>
> >> >From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
> >
> >"What I like about my madness is that it has protected me from the very
> >beginning against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that i
> >was the happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to save
> >myself -- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
> >faith. As a result, my pure choice did not raise me above anyone.
> >Without equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
> >save all of me. If i relegate impossible Salvation to the proproom,
> >what remains? A whole man, composed of all men and as good as all of
> >them and no better than any."
> >
> >from THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
>
> "The consequences of our actions take hold of us,
> quite indifferent to our claim that meanwhile we
> have 'improved.' "
>
> >From _Beyond Good And Evil_ by Friedrich Nietzsche
hee hee hee
"Calculative thinking is not meditative thinking, not thinking which
contemplates the meaning which reigns in everything that is."
from Discourse on Thinking by Martin Heidegger
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:40:46 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Slon
Wydawnictwo Literackie
Krakow
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:43:47 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/glazier/prose/creeley_70.h
tml
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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the slave andim'justnowreading Dutchman by LeRoi Jones
do anyone here lookback Tommy Smith and John Carlos?
i saw Amiri Baraka televised by tvz0ne declaming
X is black
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:40:57 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption/why not compassion
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i prefer to meditate upon compassion for others vs redemption.
i don't feel i have a damned thing that i've done in this world to repent or
be redeemed from.
i have a simple credo:
be kind, learn, listen to others
have compassion for self and others.
mc
RACE --- wrote:
> M. Cakebread wrote:
> >
> > At 10:19 PM 12/12/97 -0600, david rhaesa wrote:
> > >M. Cakebread wrote:
> >
> > >> "The great epochs of our life come when we gain the
> > >> courage to rechristen our evil as what is best in us."
> > >>
> > >> >From _Beyond Good And Evil _ by Friedrich Nietzsche
> > >
> > >"What I like about my madness is that it has protected me from the very
> > >beginning against the charms of the 'elite': never have i thought that i
> > >was the happy possessor of a 'talent'; my sole concern has been to save
> > >myself -- nothing in my hands, nothing up my sleeve -- by work and
> > >faith. As a result, my pure choice did not raise me above anyone.
> > >Without equipment, without tools, I set all of me to work in order to
> > >save all of me. If i relegate impossible Salvation to the proproom,
> > >what remains? A whole man, composed of all men and as good as all of
> > >them and no better than any."
> > >
> > >from THE WORDS by Jean-Paul Sartre
> >
> > "The consequences of our actions take hold of us,
> > quite indifferent to our claim that meanwhile we
> > have 'improved.' "
> >
> > >From _Beyond Good And Evil_ by Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> hee hee hee
>
> "Calculative thinking is not meditative thinking, not thinking which
> contemplates the meaning which reigns in everything that is."
>
> from Discourse on Thinking by Martin Heidegger
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:07:14 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Ginsberg
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does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of the court transcripts of
ginsberg defending himself in court concerning freedom of speech?
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:12:53 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
In-Reply-To: <BEAT-L%1997121123355967@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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>Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:00:13 -0800
>From: bofus? <bofus@mindspring.com>
>1968: While other New-Left leaders preach violent overthrow of the U.S.
>Government and creation of a Marxist dictatorship, Leary urges instead a
>nonviolent, drug-oriented "hippie capitalism," an artsy-craftsy,
>decentralized, libertarian sort of entrepeneurship that will also soon
>find its expression in the culture of the Grateful Dead. While Leary's
>position does constitute a rejection of the corporate world, it also
>embraces private property and the profit motive. Because of this, the
>Marxist Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) denounces Leary and his
>noncommunist followers for "limiting the revolution." The Progressive
>Labor Party (PLP), a Maoist "Old Left" group, goes so far as to claim
>that Leary is a CIA agent. But the PLP is accusing everyone it disgarees
>with of being CIA.
>
>1969: Leary critics will eventually point with suspicion to his close
>connections during this time to an international LSD-smuggling cartel,
>the Brotherhood of Eternal Love, which is rumored to be a CIA front. The
>Brotherhood is controlled by Ronald Stark, whom an Italian High Court
>will later conclude has been a CIA agent since 1960, and the
>Brotherhood's funds are channeled through Castle Bank in the Bahamas, a
>known CIA "proprietary." For two years Leary lives at Brotherhood
>headquarters, located on a ranch in Laguna Beach. During this period,
>the Brotherhood corners the U.S. market on LSD and begins distributing
>only one variety of the drug, "Orange Sunshine." Stark says he plans to
>distribute the product to CIA-backed guerillas fighting Chinese
>occupation; he reportedly knows a high-placed Tibetan close to the Dalai
>Lama, and wants to provide enough LSD to dose all Chinese troops in
>Tibet. In the U.S., meanwhile, Stark provides enough Orange Sunshine to
>dose the hippie culture and radical left many times over. This is the
>"bad acid" on which Charles Manson's followers murder Sharon Tate, and
>on which Hell's Angels stab to death a black man during a concert by the
>Rolling Stones. The Summer of Love has been supplanted by a Season of
>Hate. Because of this, many countercultural insiders -- including
>William S. Burroughs, White Panther leader John Sinclair, and Merry
>Prankster Ken Kesey -- will eventually entertain the theory that Stark,
>Leary, and Orange Sunshine are all part of CIA plot to discredit and
>neutralize the radical left. According to former radicals Martin Lee and
>Bruce Shalin, widespread use of Orange Sunshine "contributed
>significantly to the demise of the New Left, for it heightened the
>metabolism of the body politic and accelerated all the changes going
>on... In its hyped-up condition, the New Left burned itself out."
>
>http://home.dti.net/lawserv/leary.html
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:55:13 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
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I find it hard to believe that Father Tim had any involvment with such a bogus
group as the CIA! but i have learned also over the years that anything is
possible. on a more persoanl note- I had many fine experiences on "Orange
Sunshine" and cannot honestly say that it destroyed my involvment with the
Liberal movement- the bull crap developed and handed down by the movement did
it for me!
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 11:45:49 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: redemption/why not compassion
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I heartily endorse your credo MC- compassion will be the saving grace of this
world-especially if man can rise above false- or empty compassion- as is
preached by so many false people!
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:38:47 EST
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From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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If your speaking of the Howl Trail I know I've seen excerpts of it in the
past, but I'm not sure if the complete transcript is available. It should be
accessable as it is a public record, albeit 40 years old. From what I
remember Ginsberg wasn't in attendance at the trial itself... he was in
Tangier living with Burroughs at that time. It was really Ferlinghetti and
City Lights along with Shigeyoshi Murao who happened to be at the cash
register when the SFPD officers bought the book.
Jerry Cimino
Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:51:46 +0000
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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for best or most complete accounts, ACID DREAMS: the complete social history of
lds: the cia the sixties, and beyond by martin a lee& bruce shlain
best sociological source: STORMING HEAVEN; lsd and the american dream, jay
stevens.
best fun: still is electric acid kool aide test
i hope to have some copywrited (to the tale teller) tales i hope i hope some day
more than less.
sitting on my hands
that's me in the corner,
hoping
mc
GTL1951 wrote:
> I find it hard to believe that Father Tim had any involvment with such a bogus
> group as the CIA! but i have learned also over the years that anything is
> possible. on a more persoanl note- I had many fine experiences on "Orange
> Sunshine" and cannot honestly say that it destroyed my involvment with the
> Liberal movement- the bull crap developed and handed down by the movement did
> it for me!
> Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:59:45 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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How trail: east to west coast; west to east; mph benezedrin refills tokay, and
and pit stops called by driver.
mc
Bigsurs4me wrote:
> If your speaking of the Howl Trail I know I've seen excerpts of it in the
> past, but I'm not sure if the complete transcript is available. It should be
> accessable as it is a public record, albeit 40 years old. From what I
> remember Ginsberg wasn't in attendance at the trial itself... he was in
> Tangier living with Burroughs at that time. It was really Ferlinghetti and
> City Lights along with Shigeyoshi Murao who happened to be at the cash
> register when the SFPD officers bought the book.
>
> Jerry Cimino
> Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:01:03 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg/madame yr ignorance
MIME-Version: 1.0
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howl trail,
she wrote as an addendum,
to what could have been
a slightly
amusing post
mc
Bigsurs4me wrote:
> If your speaking of the Howl Trail I know I've seen excerpts of it in the
> past, but I'm not sure if the complete transcript is available. It should be
> accessable as it is a public record, albeit 40 years old. From what I
> remember Ginsberg wasn't in attendance at the trial itself... he was in
> Tangier living with Burroughs at that time. It was really Ferlinghetti and
> City Lights along with Shigeyoshi Murao who happened to be at the cash
> register when the SFPD officers bought the book.
>
> Jerry Cimino
> Fog City
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:17:20 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bigsurs4me <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Marie,
Maybe we should call it the "Hallelujah Trail"?!?
Decision by Judge Clayton Horn... film at eleven...
Jerry Cimino
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:19:13 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: the day before the day before i leave
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yeeehhhhaaaa.
off to california with stardust and moombeams in myne eyes...
3 days no none stop, except in chicago
hurtling onward, hopefully during
sun hours through the rockies
it's an
adventure
never dared dream of
wahoooooooo!!!!!!!
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:51:11 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Robbins vs. Beats
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> Subject:
> Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
> Date:
> Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:23:00 -0800
> From:
> Eric Lytle <e.lytle@CED.UTAH.EDU>
>
>
> > Did anyone ever read the book....Something about Cowboys in the title
> > (sorry
> > I can't be more vague)....there was a movie made with Uma Thurman as
> > the
> > leading gal who had these enormous thumbs. But anyway....of what I
> > read of
> > the book, I distinctly remember how references were made in the story
> > to the
> > leading character's brief affair with Jack Kerouac, something about
> > how
> > they met hitchhiking...pretty funny. This post reminded me of that
> > book.
> >
> > Diane.
> >
>
> Such irony. An old girlfriend gave me this book, saying that it was
> better than all those Kerouac books I was reading. I was never able to
> get into it, and even now it sits in my books-started stack. Maybe
> I'll read on until she meets JK. I don't know how many Robbins fans
> there are on this list, but we might be due for a discussion here. Any
> Robbins readers up for a comparison vs. the Beats?
>
> -E
No comparison, dude--Robbins--Humour sarcasm and witticisms,
Beats--sarcasm and witticisms, with a dash of
humour--
wait, let me think on this some more....
You really should read "Even Cowgirls get the Blues" but i believe his
peice de resistance to be "Skinny Legs and All." Do read any and all
books by Robbins, it tends to make you a richer human being....Don't get
put off by his reference to Kerouac in "Cowgirls", I think he did that
more to pay homage than to poke fun. It does take awhile to get into a
Robbins novel, but once there you find you can't put them down...
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:00:02 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: two words
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>
> > And that is the basis for the comedy and tragedy that are equal parts of
> > life, and he writes a good deal about both of them?
>
> but the legend as a whole he "says" is a comedy. of course, i guess the
> tragedy could be him thinking comedy in tragedy and then someone might
> find the comic in that and it could go on and on and on.....
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
> p.s. called some receptionist an idiot over the phone but finally got a
> doctor's appointment for my cold :)
David:
two words--Shakespearean Tragedies
two more words--Zinc Lozenges.
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:05:22 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: MORE ON ROBBINS VS. BEATS
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>
> Subject:
> Re: Even Cowgirls Get the Blues
> Date:
> Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:10:00 EST
> From:
> GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
>
>
> God! I tried reading that book too! the back blurb about Kerouac got me to buy
> it- what a waste of bucks! Tom Robbins is no writer- at least not a serious
> one- much less even a funny one. now Uma Thurman with big thumbs sounds
> interesting.
> Gene
P.S.--oH please oh please if you have not seen the movie DO NOT SEE IT
I REPEAT DO NOT SEE IT!!!!!!
Even tho Gus Van Sant directed it and Uma Thurman starred--even she
could not save that sorry piece of cinema!@!!!!!!
cathy
READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK READ THE BOOK
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:13:57 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: Robbins vs. Beats
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I like Tom Robbins a lot, even though I think he has a lot of trouble
ending his books. The first two ("Another Roadside Attraction" and "Even
Cowgirls Get The Blues") really captured me, but most of his subsequent
novels always left me hanging. They would build so beautifully and
excitingly, but leave me feeling unsatisfied and unsated in the end. Thus
I was doubly pleased with his latest, "Half Asleep In Frog Pajamas," which
really did come through for me in the final stretch.
Just MHO.
Jym
Cathy Wilkie wrote:
> No comparison, dude--Robbins--Humour sarcasm and witticisms,
> Beats--sarcasm and witticisms, with a dash of
> humour--
>
>
> wait, let me think on this some more....
>
> You really should read "Even Cowgirls get the Blues" but i believe his
> peice de resistance to be "Skinny Legs and All." Do read any and all
> books by Robbins, it tends to make you a richer human being....Don't get
> put off by his reference to Kerouac in "Cowgirls", I think he did that
> more to pay homage than to poke fun. It does take awhile to get into a
> Robbins novel, but once there you find you can't put them down...
>
>
> cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:33:55 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Brian,
My wife Elizabeth was in Vancouver and Seattle this past summer and
her homecoming present for me was "Allen Ginsberg: Howl" edited by Barry
Miles and published by Harper Perrenial; large format paperback which
includes facsimile versions of 'Howl' as well as various contemporaneous
correspondence and material about the 'legal skirmishes'. Not transcripts as
such, but does include excerpts of the decision and an appebdix called the
Legal History of Howl.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:37:39 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: the day before the day before i leave
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marie,
have a lovely trip,
and make sure to tell us all about it when you return.
i'm jealous,
there's nothing better than the sound of the engine
the windows down
and your home behind you....
muchos carinos, take care
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:55:23 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
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Gort, Klaatu nicto borada!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:56:58 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
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In a message dated 97-12-13 09:30:29 EST, you write:
<<
Slon
Wydawnictwo Literackie
Krakow
>>
Gort, Klaatu nicto borada!
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:56:05 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
In-Reply-To: <7802273d.3492bdfd@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hello,
the agent Ronald Stark is a notorius agent involved in
the dark conspirancy against the democracy here in italy (70s'-80s')
connected with neo-nazis and neo-fascists (operation Stay Behind)
if there's any connection with Tim Leary it's really a
very dangerous bang to the public image of the countercultural
leader. I hope, of course, it's not true but IF this is the fact
it's very serious both on the side #1 drug spread and #2 nazism against
the leftism.
Rinaldo.
--------
At 11.55 13/12/97 EST, Gene wrote:
>I find it hard to believe that Father Tim had any involvment with such a
bogus
>group as the CIA! but i have learned also over the years that anything is
>possible. on a more persoanl note- I had many fine experiences on "Orange
>Sunshine" and cannot honestly say that it destroyed my involvment with the
>Liberal movement- the bull crap developed and handed down by the movement did
>it for me!
> Gene
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:59:22 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To: <4bfd8a2e.3493044d@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
somebody wrote:
>Gort, Klaatu nicto borada!
>
>
Slawomir Mrozek, is a player who wrote a very
beautiful collected novel called "the elephant".
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:02:12 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To: <964e39b0.349304ac@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 16.56 13/12/97 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-13 09:30:29 EST, you write:
>
><<
> Slon
> Wydawnictwo Literackie
> Krakow
> >>
>Gort, Klaatu nicto borada!
>
i hope you take seriously this pun as
slawomir is a serious writer and play writer
from polonia. this is all. have a look at
him works they are very fine and subersive
against every establishment in the eastern
lands.
Rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:05:09 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-13 11:44:46 EST, you write:
<< does anyone know if it is possible to get a copy of the court transcripts
of
ginsberg defending himself in court concerning freedom of speech?
brian
>>
Significant portions are reprinted in Horn on Howl, Evergreen Review, V1. #4,
pgs.145-158...this has been anthologized in several places. I found it today
in A Casebook on the Beat. edited by Thomas Parkinson.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:18:48 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: mystic fire videos at the library
MIME-Version: 1.0
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just checked out two videos at the library:
Commissioner of Sewers -- William S. Burroughs
and
Kerouac by Antonelli
anybody seen these already -- and are they worth watching?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:58:06 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
In-Reply-To: <349309C8.4848@midusa.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> Commissioner of Sewers -- William S. Burroughs
Do report back, Agent.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Calling unrequested, undesired email "Spam"
is an insult to the meat product.
And that's saying something.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:02:48 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Michael R. Brown wrote:
>
> On Sat, 13 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>
> > Commissioner of Sewers -- William S. Burroughs
>
> Do report back, Agent.
>
"K9 K9"
"shift coordinate points"
gonna watch it later
mr. webster
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:15:32 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: redemption
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There is a Don Williams song written by Bob McDill called Good Old Boys
Like Me. If you ain't ever heard it, you ought too. My favorite lines
talk about the expectation being discussed in this thread. They go
something like this:
> Nothing makes a sound in the night like the wind does,
> But you ain't afraid if you're washed in the blood like I was.
> The smell of cave jasmine through the window screen,
> John R and the Wolfman kept me company,
> By the light of the radio by my bed,
> With Thomas Wolfe whispering in my head.
>
So, I figure that if you are washed in the blood, grew up listening to
John R and the Wolfman, and read Thomas Wolfe/Jack Kerouac, then you got
a shot at redemption, cause that's what all that's about. And how about
the chorus, it asks the question:
> Chorus
> I can still hear the the soft Southern winds in the live oak trees,
> And those Williams boys still mean a lot to me, Hank and Tennessee.
> I guess we're all gonna be what we're gonna be.
> So what'll you do with Good old boys like me.
>
So, I figure that's redemption: Wind (Nature), Washed in the Blood
(Spiritual Rebirth), John R, Wolfman, Thomas Wolfe, Tennessee Williams,
and Hank Williams, with the wind in the Live Oak trees and a big old
full moon coming up. That will just about do it!
Praise the Lord, can I get a witness!!!!!!!!!!!
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:17:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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The Antonelli film is pretty good, lotsa footage of Jack and some scenes
filmed docu-drama style with an actor namedJack Coulter playing Kerouac. Good
jazz soundtrack. Haven't seen the Burroughs film...let us know about it.
Your reactions are always worth reading.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:25:51 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Jesus/Teacher/Compassion
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One of the main reasons there have been very few Christians in the
history of this cult is the difficulties of the teachings of Jesus
(Joshua) The Christ. "Love your neighbor AS you love yourself." I
think that was what MC said in different words. And what Jack ascribed
to do. He learned he was too selfish and could not do it. He wanted to
be Mother Theresa. Thank God he wasn't. Too bad it ate him alive.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:57:03 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
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>Gort, Klaatu nicto borada!
yeah and ringo starr and calling occupants of interplanetary craft
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 18:55:08 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: redemption
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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:
> and Hank Williams, with the wind in the Live Oak trees and a big old
> full moon coming up. That will just about do it!
>
that's a bad moon rising though - be careful of that trickster old moon.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:21:30 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: some del dharma@ the St.Marks Poetry Project
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bouna sera a tutti, come stanno loro?
i realize you probably had some threads whisping around last week on this
subject but i just re-subscribed to the list today and wondered about the
ST.MARKS CELEBRATION of Some Of The Dharma last week. did any of you NYers
go? *how was it??* they, at the poetry project, seem to have some thing
against people who work or go to school, that is, they always hold their major
events on the most remote nights of the week and it is surely frustrating.
allora, if anyone gets a chance, im dying (not really) to hear about it, so
i'd appreciate any mail, on- or off- list (again, im assuming you've all
talked about it some already.) tante grazie!!!
-- Ginny Browne.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:05:26 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DawnDR <DawnDR@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
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I have to admit that I, too, would be disappointed in Leary --- but, then, I
was disappointed in myself and others when I learned nearly 20 years after
the fact that I and anyone else involved with the National Student Association
(NSA) of the '60s and early '70s was involved with the CIA. NSA was funded by
and used by the CIA to further its own causes.
Dawn
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 22:13:34 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Cassady? :)
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Just found out tonight that i've got kinfolk named Cassady in Canoga
Park California. Wonder if they're Beat? :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:14:29 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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In a message dated 97-12-13 18:20:00 EST, you write:
<< Significant portions are reprinted in Horn on Howl, Evergreen Review, V1.
#4,
pgs.145-158...this has been anthologized in several places. I found it today
in A Casebook on the Beat. edited by Thomas Parkinson. >>
thank you ever so much
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 00:15:46 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
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In a message dated 97-12-13 17:06:39 EST, you write:
<< My wife Elizabeth was in Vancouver and Seattle this past summer and
her homecoming present for me was "Allen Ginsberg: Howl" edited by Barry
Miles and published by Harper Perrenial; large format paperback which
includes facsimile versions of 'Howl' as well as various contemporaneous
correspondence and material about the 'legal skirmishes'. Not transcripts as
such, but does include excerpts of the decision and an appebdix called the
Legal History of Howl. >>
thank you very much as well
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:29:55 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Slawomir Mrozek idies regues.
In-Reply-To: <v01510100b0b8617a07d8@[128.125.224.94]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>Gort, Klaatu nicto borada!
>
>
>yeah and ringo starr and calling occupants of interplanetary craft
>
>
Cellografia
out of this planet
there's the Slon
Zamiatin,
Ilf,
Petrov
Borzecin 1930
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:28:33 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: 12 Mellow Hopes of Paradise
In-Reply-To: <964e39b0.349304ac@aol.com>
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amici, a simple question: in the "L'angelo caduto"
(the italian translation of "Angelheaded Hipster")
at page 205 there's a photo titled "La conferenza
dell'addormentato" is this photo in the original
Turner's book? i noticed the "L'angelo caduto"
has the bio of some beat performers just updated
to 1997, perhaps the italian editor has added something...
grazie e saluti,
rinaldo.
--------
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:08:30 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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DCardKJHS wrote:
>
> The Antonelli film is pretty good, lotsa footage of Jack and some scenes
> filmed docu-drama style with an actor namedJack Coulter playing Kerouac. Good
> jazz soundtrack. Haven't seen the Burroughs film...let us know about it.
> Your reactions are always worth reading.
> Dennis
no fancy reactions. Commissioner of Sewers has lots of clips of WSB
doing readings and i just enjoy such things to death -- many of them
would shift into background sort of videoclip things which i quite
frankly didn't pay that much attention to for i tended to stay fairly
focused on watching the old man do his stuff. i thought the interviewer
was fairly weak - he had some fairly basic questions to ask and wasn't
prepared to improvise with the kind of follow-up questions that might
have been fascinating. The answerer in my opinion had his usual
interesting angle in answering the questions (sometimes softballs thrown
up which he chose to foul off for fun!) but then i had to think i saw a
few synapses push through the forehead saying "who is this idiot
interviewer anyway?!?!" when the follow-ups didn't come. but i imagine
it would be easy for any mortal to forget how to form basic sentences in
the presence of THE MAN. probably worth seeing - but i'm a television
junkie so i'd probably like that Last Time I committed Suicide thing
everyone flames about....... :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 06:13:13 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: McClure's Marysville
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so i've been doing some geneaological "research" for my family (my
method consists of randomly surfing around and when i find someone who
MIGHT be related somehow i send them an e-mail saying "I think we're
kin" and then usually find out that i was right and that they have all
kinds of information that i didn't know before.
soooo.... i decided i'd try a bit on my step-Dad's family and punched in
Marysville Kansas and pushed the magic buttons and whooosh-boom-pop out
of the vortex comes one of Levi's pages (i think) about McClure and the
mention of "born in Marysville Kansas" -- well i'd known something of
him being from Kansas but didn't realize Marysville.
Does anyone know much about the McClure roots in Marysville? I'm
certain that there's no relation involved -- but Marysville is a rather
small little burg and some i thought perhaps some folks might know some
folks and whatnot. What were McClure's parents names?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 07:28:54 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: THE HOWL TRIAL
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Just thought I'd mention that Ferlinghetti talks about the Howl trial un
my Column 27 http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj/column27.html , my
interview with Lawrence almost 40 years ago. Also has a few lines from
trial transcript. Also in that column, interview with famed lawyer Jake
Ehrlich tells etymology of word FUCK. --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:34:50 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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In a message dated 97-12-14 07:41:47 EST, you write:
<< probably worth seeing - but i'm a television
junkie so i'd probably like that Last Time I committed Suicide thing
everyone flames about....... :)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
>>
David, please! You know better than that. I'm a TV head too...I watch, but I
don't necessarily like everything I see. You SHOULD go ahead and rent that
godawful film just tp see what the fuss was about. Truly worthless crap. On
the other hand,
have you seen a lengthy filmed reading Bukowski did years ago where there is a
refrigerator onstage full of beer which Buk consumes as he reads? I saw it
once maybe ten years ago...don't have the title...but I think you'd really
enjoy it. Did you rent that Commish/Sewers? I want to see it.
Anyone on the list familiar with that particular Bukowski film? If memory
serves, it was filmed somewhere in San Francisco. At the Fugazi, maybe?
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 08:28:43 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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DCardKJHS wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-12-14 07:41:47 EST, you write:
>
> << probably worth seeing - but i'm a television
> junkie so i'd probably like that Last Time I committed Suicide thing
> everyone flames about....... :)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
> >>
> David, please! You know better than that. I'm a TV head too...I watch, but I
> don't necessarily like everything I see.
I can't say I have much of a critical eye about such things. I mostly
watch such matters for entertainment value -- and i'm a big fan of "BAD"
television precisely because it's stupid.
I'm well-trained in critical matters but am in pre-school as it were in
attempting to apply these notions to ordinary life and literature and
the arts. I'm not certain that the same critical language and methods
can be easily transposed from non-fiction and non-literate <grin>
subject matters across the great divide as it were to the realm of
literature. As i become exposed -- GRADUALLY -- to more of such STUFF
hopefully i'll see various pathways.
You SHOULD go ahead and rent that
> godawful film just tp see what the fuss was about.
I doubt seriously that i'll find it here. In the event (as opposed to
IF - an old nation of islam friend spent a whole day on the differences
<grin>) that my move to Denver works out i'll have a much better chance.
Truly worthless crap. On
> the other hand,
> have you seen a lengthy filmed reading Bukowski did years ago where there is a
> refrigerator onstage full of beer which Buk consumes as he reads? I saw it
> once maybe ten years ago...don't have the title...but I think you'd really
> enjoy it.
I've only heard of Bukowski at this point -- and might have heard enough
to bluff in a cocktail party on a campus somewhere --- but can't say i
know much of anything about him and definitely haven't seen the one
you're talking about.
Did you rent that Commish/Sewers? I want to see it.
The local library had it. I was quite surprised. It must have been a
recent purchase on their part. I had a conversation about WSB with one
of the big shot librarians shortly after his death and maybe it had a
slight effect on purchasing decisions. The nice thing about the library
is it falls into the kind of videos that one checks out like a book FOR
A MONTH.
> Anyone on the list familiar with that particular Bukowski film? If memory
> serves, it was filmed somewhere in San Francisco. At the Fugazi, maybe?
> Dennis
david
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:55:03 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-14 08:40:25 EST, you write:
<< You SHOULD go ahead and rent that
godawful film just tp see what the fuss was about. Truly worthless crap. On
the other hand, >>
i don't want to start the argument again, but the film did have some redeeming
qualities. to tell you the truth, i hadn't read anything beat until after i
saw the film. maybe its just my perspective, but i liked it. there. enough
said. don't flame me, please.
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:57:41 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-14 10:37:05 EST, you write:
<< to bluff in a cocktail party on a campus somewhere >>
cocktail parties on campus???!!! what school is this???
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:00:31 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
In-Reply-To: <d8f1a7b8.3493e07d@aol.com>
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I rented this movie last night and I enjoyed it but I have a question.
Keanu Reeve's character,Harry,...who was that supposed to be? And that guy
Ben? Who was that? I didn't recognize anyone from Beat lore in that movie
except for Neal and Joan.
~Nancy
PS Great soundtrack,though
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:13:13 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: 12 DAYS OF CHRISTMAS
Comments: To: ducksquack@hotmail.com, frank@beacham.com, beacham@radiomail.net,
bearlife@iAmerica.net, dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca,
belile@earthlink.net, preparim@mbox301.swipnet.se,
benjamin@creativeimagery.com, techsupport@bellatlantic.net,
bigchief@bigmagic.com, vbippart@sover.net, flameon@mindspring.com,
lew.blanck@usa.net, gracie456@aol.com, jablonk@pi.net,
FDBBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
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Every Year, I used to send out holiday greetings to an
ever-growing
list of friends, acquaintances and those I wished to know or to
stay in
touch with, a consequence of the fact that I'd been more or less
banished from the public prints by the scum bags I used to work
with and
for at the New York Post for no good reason. Since I began
writing my
BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST column on the Internet, it's as if those
not
plugged into the Web no longer exist for me. Besides, broke and
busier
as I continue to be, I don't have the funds for postage and
printing and
I don't have time to send out greetings by snail mail. However,
last
Christmas, my good friend, David Kapralik, also known as Ilili,
sent me
a cybergreeting so unique that I now feel compelled to forward
it to all
on my Email list as part of my own greeting. With all good
wishes for
the season, for the year and for the rest of your lives, here is
my
appropriated cybergreeting. --Love, Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
Subject:
12 Days Of Xmas
Date:
Wed, 25 Dec 1996 09:21:32 -1000
From:
iliili@maui.net (David Kapralik)
To:
blackj@mail.bigmagic.com
>
>(Make your e-mail screen as large as possible to ensure that
this design isn't
>forced to "wrap" at the end of a line. That messes up the
design.)
>
>:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>
> _______) _______) ,__) ____, ____,
> (--||_, _ (--| _ | _ (--| \ _ , (--/ \
,_,
> _|| |(/_ _|(_|_)(/_|\/(/_ _|_/(_|\|/_)_
\_/_|_
> ( |__, ( ( ,__| ,__|
>
> ____,,__) ,__)
> (--/ `|_,,_' ,-|-,_,_, _ ,
> / | || |/_)| | | |(_|/_)
> \__, |__, |__,
>
>
>
> On the Twelfth Day of Christmas, my true love gave to me:
> Twelve Drummers Drumming
>
> .-} .-} .-}
> |_| |_| |_|
> (_) (_) __ (_) .---.
> | \ .--. | \.' '. | \/ \
> |\_|--o ) |\_|--o ; |\_|--o |
> |:| '--' |:|'.__.' |:|\ /
> |:| |:| |:| `---`
> |:|_ |:|_ |:|_
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-. .-.
> |M| |E| |R| |R| |Y| |X| |M| |A| |S|
> (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_)
> /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\
> [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX]
> ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| |||
> ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| |||
> _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>
>Eleven Pipers Piping
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
_
> ,/_) ,/_) ,/_) ,/_) ,/_) ,/_) ,/_) ,/_) ,/_) ,/_)
,/_)
> (") (") (") (") (") (") (") (") (") (")
(")
> /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\
/I\
> (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\)
(/^\)
> ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| |||
|||
> ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| |||
|||
> _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_ _|||_
_|||_
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> Ten Lords A-Leaping
>
> w w
> w 0__ \0__
> \0__ w /|_ w /_
> /_ __0/ '\/ / \0_ '\/ / w
> '\/ / /_ ` /_ ` __0/
> ` `\/ \, _\ \, /_
> w ` `\/ \,
> \0__ w w
> /_ 0__ w \0__
> _\ \, /|_ __0/ |_
> ` `\/ \, /_ _\ \,
> `\/ /, `
>
>
>
> Nine Ladies Dancing
>
> |~
> () () 0` |~
> () _/)(\_ () _/)(\_ 0`
> _/)(\_ /^^\ () _/)(\_ /""\
> /~~\ /____\ _/)(\_ /``\ /____\
> /____\ /""\ /____\ ()
> () /____\ _/)(\_ ()
> |~ _/)(\_ () /^^\ _/)(\_
> 0` |~ /``\ _/)(\_ /____\ /~~\
> 0` /____\ /~~\ /____\
> /____\
>
> Eight Maids A-Milking
>
>
> __.----. __.----. __.----.
__.----.___
> (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-'
;--`
> `(uu)' _ `(dd)' _ `(gg)' _ `(vv)' _
|
> ) ( (|) ) ( (|) ) ( (|) ) (
(|) |
> (o o) 8~8 (o o) 8~8 (o o) 8~8 (o o)
8~8 ,/
> `--'\_ (__).`--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ (__).'`--'\_
_(__)|
> `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `||~||
/\||
>
^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^
>
> __.----. __.----. __.----.
__.----.___
> (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-' (\(__)/)-'
;--`
> `(99)' _ `(66)' _ `(aa)' _ `(ee)' _
|
> ) ( (|) ) ( (|) ) ( (|) ) (
(|) |
> (o o) 8~8 (o o) 8~8 (o o) 8~8 (o o)
8~8,/
> `--'\_ (__).'`--'\_ (__).`--'\_ (__).`--'\_
_(__)|
> `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `|||~~/\|| `||~||
/\||
>
^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^`^
>
>
> Seven swans A-Swimming
>
> ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
> /,_ \ /,_ \ /,_ \ /,_ \ /,_ \ /,_ \ /,_ \
_,
> |/ )/ |/ )/ |/ )/ |/ )/ |/ )/ |/ )/ |/ )/
/ |
> // _/ |// _/ // _/ // _/ // _/ // _/ // _/
|
> / (_/ / (_/ / (_/ / (_/ / (_/ / (_/ / (_/
_)
> / ` / ` / ` / ` / ` / ` / `
_/)
> \ ~=- \ ~=- \ ~=- \ ~=- \ ~=- \ ~=- \ ~=-
/
>
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
>
>
>
> Six Geese A-Laying
>
> __ __ __ __ __ __
> >(' ) >(' ) >(' ) >(' ) >(' ) >(' )
> )/ , )/ , )/ , )/ , )/ , )/
,
> /(____/\ /(____/\ /(____/\ /(____/\ /(____/\
/(____/\
> / ) / ) / ) / ) / ) /
)
> \ ` =~~/ \ ` =~~/ \ ` =~~/ \ ` =~~/ \ ` =~~/ \ `
=~~/
> `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __ `---Y-' __
`---Y-' __
> ~~' (__) ~~' (__) ~~' (__) ~~' (__) ~~' (__)
~~' (__)
>
>
> Five Golden Rings
>
> .-. .-. .-. .-. .-.
> ((_)) ((_)) ((_)) ((_)) ((_))
> '-' '-' '-' '-' '-'
>
>
>
> Four Calling Birds
>
> ___ ___ ___ ___
> ('v') ('v') ('v') ('v')
> (( )) (( )) (( )) (( ))
> -/-"---"---/-"---"---/-"---"---/-"---"--
>
>
>
> Three French Hens
>
> (\ }\ (\ }\ (\ }\
> ( \_('> ( \_('> ( \_('>
> (__(=_) (__(=_) (__(=_)
> -"= -"= -"=>
>
> Two Turtle Doves
>
> _ _
>
> <')_,/ <') ,/
> (_==/ (_==/
> ='- ='-
>
>
>
> And a Partridge in a Pear Tree
> _
> ('>
> /))@@@@@
> /@"@@@@@()@
> @@()@@()@@@@
> @@@O@@@@()@@@
> @()@@\@@@()@@
> @()@||@@@@@
> @@||@@@
> ||
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>
.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:.
>
> __,_,_,___) _______
> (--| | | (--/ ),_) ,_)
> | | | _ ,_,_ | |_ ,_' , _|_,_,_, _ ,
> __| | | (/_| | (_| | | || |/_)_| | | |(_|/_)___,
> ( |___, ,__| \____) |__, |__,
>
> | _...._
> \ _ / .::o:::::.
> (\o/)
.:::'''':o:.
> --- / \ --- :o:_
_:::
> >*<
`:}_>()<_{:'
> >0<@< @ `'//\\'`
@
> >>>@<<* @ # // \\
# @
> >@>*<0<<<
__#_#____/'____'\____#_#__
> >*>>@<<<@<<
[__________________________]
> >@>>0<<<*<<@< |=_- .-/\ /\ /\
/\--. =_-|
> >*>>0<<@<<<@<<< |-_= | \ \\ \\ \\
\ |-_=-|
> >@>>*<<@<>*<<0<*< |_=-=| / // // //
/ |_=-_|
> \*/ >0>>*<<@<>0><<*<@<< |=_- |`-'`-'`-'`-'
|=_=-|
> ___\\U//___ >*>>@><0<<*>>@><*<0<< | =_-| o
o |_==_|
> |\\ | | \\| >@>>0<*<<0>>@<<0<<<*<@< |=_- | ! (
! |=-_=|
> | \\| | _(UU)_ >((*))_>0><*<0><@<<<0<*< _|-,-=| ! ).
! |-_-=|_
> |\ \| || / //||.*.*.*.|>>@<<*<<@>><0<<@</=-((=_| ! __(:')__
! |=_==_-\
> |\\_|_|&&_// ||*.*.*.*|_\\db//__
(\_/)-=))-|/^\=^=^^=^=/^\| _=-_-_\
> """"|'.'.'.|~~|.*.*.*| ____|_ =('.')=//
,------------.
> |'.'.'.| ^^^^^^|____|>>>>>>| ( ~~~ )/
(((((((())))))))
> ~~~~~~~~ '""""`------' `w---w`
`------------'
>
>
Heart to Heart,
>
David {ili ili}
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:40:52 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ferlingh2 <Ferlingh2@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Ginsberg
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Probably finding transcripts of Ginsberg on the subject of censorship will be
difficult. He wasn't involved personally in the "Howl" trial, in fact was in
Europe at the time and the defense fell to City Lights and Ferlinghetti. He's
testified about drugs on the record, but I think you'll have to look at his
interviews to get quotes on censorship. There are some more recent interviews
dealing with his work's being banned on prime time radio in the age of Jesse
Helms.
Bill Morgan
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:48:41 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
Subject: on the rails
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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hi everyone. i'll be taking off early tomorrow on marathon 3 day train
trip east to west coast. will have a hot mail account set up by leon, my
oh so wondrous and gracious host, so i'm not setting nomail. talk to all
sometime later in the week. i'm looking forward to some great stories to
tell, via interviewing folks on tape. and of course my readings. ack!!!
have a great holiday season
i'm going from one and a half feet of snow and below 0 temps to the
sunnier climes of santa cruz, el nino and all.
mc
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:57:27 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-14 11:13:49 EST, you write:
<< i don't want to start the argument again, but the film did have some
redeeming
qualities. to tell you the truth, i hadn't read anything beat until after i
saw the film. maybe its just my perspective, but i liked it. there. enough
said. don't flame me, please.
~~marlene >>
Have no fear of flame from here. If the film prompted you pick up a Beat
related book, then it obviously does have some value. I may just watch it
again and re-evaluate. My judgmental nature has caused me to stumble in the
past...
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:03:58 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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M84M79 wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-12-14 10:37:05 EST, you write:
>
> << to bluff in a cocktail party on a campus somewhere >>
>
> cocktail parties on campus???!!! what school is this???
> ~~marlene
dartmouth definitely had them. usually it was something the instructors
did to pretend to have fun...i can't say i ever quite understood the
rituals.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:10:00 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-14 11:10:02 EST, you write:
<< rented this movie last night and I enjoyed it but I have a question.
Keanu Reeve's character,Harry,...who was that supposed to be? And that guy
Ben? Who was that? >>
don't start that again
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:16:29 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: PoetMex <PoetMex@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Kerouac & Poe
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Dear Beat List:
Here are 3 Poetry CD beat list specials
1. Kerouac Box Set (3 CDs and booklet)40.00
(includes shipping, handling and tax)
Kerouac reading his own work Rhino Records
2. Closed on Account of Rabies (2 Cds or Cass) 16.00
(includes shipping, handling and tax)
Poems and Tales of Edgar Allen Poe
New from Mouth Almighty/Mercury Records
features a number of artists doing Poe
including:
Iggy Pop "The Tell-Tale Heart"
Marianne Faithfull "Alone"
Dr. John "Berenice"
Christopher Walken "The Raven"
Diamanda Galas "The Black Cat"
plus many more
Cool production by Hal Wilner
3. Ken Nordine Colors (cd 9.00)
(includes shipping, handling and tax)
Mr. Word Jazz
includes original poster from
the 50's release, great for collectors
Words On Wheels
85 Stanyan
San Francisco CA 94118
send check or money order
pay by credit card by email
or call
1-800-992-9673 (9 to 5:30 west coast)
1-800-992-WORD
Thank you,
Gary Mex Glazner
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:39:58 -0500
Reply-To: blackj@bigmagic.com
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Al Aronowitz <blackj@BIGMAGIC.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac clippings
MIME-Version: 1.0
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You_Be Fine wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-11-28 02:27:08 EST, Jerry Cimino wrote:
>
> << "Hey, darlin', if you're making coffee, will you make me a cup?" "Where's
> your mug?" "It's on the Allen"... and after awhle we started to get used to
> it and now it we don't even hardly laugh when we say it anymore... And now
> we're looking around for something to call "Bill"...
>
> Jerry Cimino
> Fog City
> >>
>
> I thoroughly loved this story, and your creative naming of unknown
> architectural details. What a great idea, and of course, completely goofy, as
> well.
>
> In fact, I enjoyed your whole letter, including the images of you all trying
> to scat to a wrestling match! I would give a week's pay to see that.
>
> Good to hear from you, telling personal tales, and making me thankful in the
> afterglow of Thanksgiving. Keep up the good work!
I liked the story, too, Jerry! --Al Aronowitz
--
***************************************
Al Aronowitz THE BLACKLISTED JOURNALIST
http://www.bigmagic.com/pages/blackj
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:09:24 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "V.J. Eaton" <vj@PRIMENET.COM>
Subject: Ginsberg on Censorship
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
If anybody is REALLY interested in this topic I can suggest this:
The Ariz State English and History departments (maybe in conjunction with
the Ariz Arts Council) co-hosted a public AG panel (then a reading and
signing) on censorship (or some topic similar) May 7th 1993, I think at the
Scottsdale Ctr for the Arts. These are the best clues memory lets me give.
The date's correct, and the city, and the hosts. The building is probably,
or close by it.
I've been out of the ASU loop too long to remember names, so I can't provide
a contact. But if you want to make a cold call, maybe they recorded the
session. Call the departments or, try the ASU library.
I do remember the academicians held forth (oh, man did they). AG had little
opportunity for expression, and was more than once cut off.
I'm not going to bother, even tho it's down the street (Tempe). Low
probability, and definitely no interest. But if anyone wants to takefollow
this, e-mail me and I'll get the department phones numbers for you, or try
to root a name of one of the hosts/panelists.
Good hunting.
--VJ
_____________________
My opinions and those of my employer are usually different,
for which my mother apologizes.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:22:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
In-Reply-To: <8080544c.34941301@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:10 PM 12/14/97 EST, M84M79 wrote:
>In a message dated 97-12-14 11:10:02 EST, you write:
>
><< rented this movie last night and I enjoyed it but I have a question.
> Keanu Reeve's character,Harry,...who was that supposed to be? And that guy
> Ben? Who was that? >>
>
>don't start that again
>~~marlene
>
>
OK, its Jack. Because without Kerouac, Cassady didn't even exist.
On the other hand, without Neal (Dean), I wonder if Jack (Sal) would
ever have existed. You can't make a film about Cassady without mentioning
Kerouac, because there is no Cassady, despite his colorfullness, without
Jack.
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:23:47 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
mike rice wrote:
>
> At 12:10 PM 12/14/97 EST, M84M79 wrote:
> >In a message dated 97-12-14 11:10:02 EST, you write:
> >
> ><< rented this movie last night and I enjoyed it but I have a question.
> > Keanu Reeve's character,Harry,...who was that supposed to be? And that guy
> > Ben? Who was that? >>
> >
> >don't start that again
> >~~marlene
> >
> >
> OK, its Jack. Because without Kerouac, Cassady didn't even exist.
> On the other hand, without Neal (Dean), I wonder if Jack (Sal) would
> ever have existed. You can't make a film about Cassady without mentioning
> Kerouac, because there is no Cassady, despite his colorfullness, without
> Jack.
>
> Mike Rice
Is this movie available at any video store? Could you tell me a little
more about it?
I have never heard of it.
Eric Mayhew
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 14:31:42 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Christa St. Peter" <astrid@NORSHORE.NET>
Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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----------
> From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
> Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 1:22 PM
>
> At 12:10 PM 12/14/97 EST, M84M79 wrote:
> >In a message dated 97-12-14 11:10:02 EST, you write:
> >
> ><< rented this movie last night and I enjoyed it but I have a question.
> > Keanu Reeve's character,Harry,...who was that supposed to be? And that
guy
> > Ben? Who was that? >>
> >
> >don't start that again
> >~~marlene
> >
> >
> OK, its Jack. Because without Kerouac, Cassady didn't even exist.
> On the other hand, without Neal (Dean), I wonder if Jack (Sal) would
> ever have existed. You can't make a film about Cassady without
mentioning
> Kerouac, because there is no Cassady, despite his colorfullness, without
> Jack.
>
> Mike Rice
I have to disagree with that - Cassady would have been Cassady no matter
what. There would not have been Kerouac if not for Cassady - but not vice
versa. It seemed like Neal would "be Neal" for others, changing some things
depending on who it was for, but he was always the same "character." Even
if Kerouac would never have written about him, Neal would still be Neal.
As for the movie, the letter was being written to Jack, but Jack was not in
the movie. I thought Keanu Reeves' character was supposed to represent one
of Neal's Denver buddies - I read about a guy who was an exceptional pool
player, and Neal offered to teach him about literature and philosophy if
this guy would teach him to play pool. I wish I could remember his name -
his last name may have been Petersen????? I'm not sure, but I read about
him in "The Holy Goof" by William Plummer. Anyway, I thought that was who
Keanu Reeves was playing. Or maybe it was Hinkle???
Christa St. Peter
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 16:05:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
This is to an earlier thread on Henry Miller and Kerouac::
Quoted from an interview with Audrey Jane Booth in 1962:
Q:...Well, what young American authors besides Saul Bellow do you admire?...
A: I don't have any that I can think of offhand. I have been fascinated b
Kerouac, I must say. Very uneven writer, perhaps and I don't think he has
yet shown his full possibilities, Kerouac.
Q: He's too young. He hasn't -
A: But he has a great gift. this great verbal gift like Thomas Wolfe had,
you know, and a few others. Tremendous gift I think, but to me rather
undisciplined, uncontrolled, and so on, but I am fascinated bu one book
called The Dharma Bums, I don't know if you know that, do you?
Q: No, I am not familiar -
A: Yes, that's beauty in my mind, and is, and has more - better grip on the
subject too, than the other books, less loose and, you know, it's more
contained.
Wonderful subject, wonderful theme he's got, wonderful characters in it, and
I love his writing there. Wonderful writing. Yes.
Q: It seems to me, Mr. Miller, that in writing, as probably in composing,
that the maturity of the man issomething that a, is, is all, that you
mentioned Kerouac. He can keep maturing - he has the possibilities. He can
probably at 90 write.
A: Yes.
Q: - more beautifully than at any other time of his life, if he lives to be 90.
Miller goes on to explain the paradox of being a good writer....that there
isn't any struggle with the craft. It is more of a handicap. It is better to
start as a bad writer and develop the craft of writing. I thought that this
was interesting anecdotal info on Miller about Kerouac. Paul of TKQ...
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 18:47:01 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-14 18:32:15 EST, you write:
<< I read about a guy who was an exceptional pool
player, and Neal offered to teach him about literature and philosophy if
this guy would teach him to play pool. I wish I could remember his name -
his last name may have been Petersen????? >>
In "Visions of Cody" Kerouac calls this character Tom Watson, the Denver
poolhall wonderkid who "discovered" Neal Cassady (tho I don't think that Keanu
Reeves portrayed this character in that (awful) film, because Kerouac
describes Tom Watson as being "crippled"---also, Kerouac does not mention the
penchant for drinking which Reeves' character displayed).
AC
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:39:48 -0500
Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject: housekeeping (not really beat related)
For anyone who knows (Bill Gargan??)--if you get "kicked off" the Beat-L
list because there isn't enough room in your mailbox to accommodate incoming
mail, are you notified at all? I was sending a request to listerv to
adjust a setting for my beat-l subscription, & once I finally got the right
address, a message was sent back to me saying that I wasn't subscribed to
Beat-L. ??? The wonders of modern technology....
--
"This is Beat. Live your lives out? Naw, _love_ your lives out!"
--Jack Kerouac
Diane Marie Homza
ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:15:36 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: Edgar Cayce
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
If anyone in beat-land is interested, tomorrow's Biography (A&E)
features Edgar Cayce. Cassady fans might want to see this, cos Cayce had
the same effect on Neal & Carolyn that Buddhism had on Kerouac.
Remember, right when Kerouac was into his Dharma Bums kick, writing Some
Of The Dharma, Old Angel Midnight, & Scripture of the Golden Etermity,
Cassady was totally absorbed by Cayce's teachings (actually Jack &
Neal's philosophical disagreements led to his bolting from Los Gatos in
'55...correct me if I'm wrong!). So anyway, it's on Monday night if
you're curious.
Adrien
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:02:22 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
In-Reply-To: <2cb25b5.349401f8@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>In a message dated 97-12-14 10:37:05 EST, you write:
>
><< to bluff in a cocktail party on a campus somewhere >>
>cocktail parties on campus???!!! what school is this???
>~~marlene
Marlene,
It was a typo. The original was:
"cock/tail parties on campus???!!! "
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:36:22 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: VegasDaddy <VegasDaddy@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: The Place
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Does anyone out there know if the famed den of Beat debauch which Kerouac
calls "The Place" is still around? And if not, does anyone know where in SF
it was located? And was the real name of the bar "The Place"? If anyone
could divulge even the slightest detail about this Place I would really
appreciate it, as I aim to visit the hallowed spot when I'm in San Fran next
week. Thanks,
Anthony C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 22:00:18 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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DCardKJHS wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-12-14 11:13:49 EST, you write:
>
> << i don't want to start the argument again, but the film did have some
> redeeming
> qualities. to tell you the truth, i hadn't read anything beat until after i
> saw the film. maybe its just my perspective, but i liked it. there. enough
> said. don't flame me, please.
> ~~marlene >>
so, the argument starts again. i saw the movie, i was compelled by all
the diverse comments i read here.
i liked it. i mean, we all know that it's not art and that whatever is
filmed for hollywood is made to be sold only. but. but, it gave me
energy; i couldn't sleep afterwards; it reminded me about the life out
there neal know how to use. made me want to live even more.
and another thing i liked was that he is portrayed as an emotional being
(at least he seemed to me) which i tend to forget sometimes when reading
about him.
everything (almost) has something positive about it. we should always
use things to our advantage. it could've been worse. they could've taken
pamella anderson for joan's part :)
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:21:46 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
In-Reply-To: <7802273d.3492bdfd@aol.com>
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>I find it hard to believe that Father Tim had any involvment with such a bogus
>group as the CIA! but i have learned also over the years that anything is
>possible. on a more persoanl note- I had many fine experiences on "Orange
>Sunshine" and cannot honestly say that it destroyed my involvment with the
>Liberal movement- the bull crap developed and handed down by the movement did
>it for me!
> Gene
I seem to have have missed something.
What link is working on such things as "orange sunsihe destroy[ed] the
liberal movement...?"
I really want to archive this thread.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:41:57 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
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In a message dated 97-12-15 01:54:38 EST, you write:
<< everything (almost) has something positive about it. we should always
use things to our advantage. it could've been worse. they could've taken
pamella anderson for joan's part :)
ksenija, are you recommending the film? This is very faint praise. I have
resolved to watch it again but not until next week. I promise not to post my
reaction to the list (unless, of course, I see the light and decide to profess
the brilliance of the film, the actors, or the director:>)
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:01:40 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: compassion vs. redemption--THE HEAVYWEIGHT MATCH
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> Subject:
> Re: redemption/why not compassion
> Date:
> Sat, 13 Dec 1997 09:40:57 +0000
> From:
> Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
>
>
> i prefer to meditate upon compassion for others vs redemption.
> i don't feel i have a damned thing that i've done in this world to repent or
> be redeemed from.
> i have a simple credo:
> be kind, learn, listen to others
> have compassion for self and others.
> mc
If only everyone lived their lives by this credo--how much less violence
do you suppose we'd have???
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:06:11 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: leary--CIA????
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Has anyone ever read "Shrodinger's Cat" by Robert Anton Wilson?
this little scenario sounds like it was taken right out of that book...
cathy
>
> Subject:
> (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
> Date:
> Sat, 13 Dec 1997 17:12:53 +0100
> From:
> Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
>
>
> >Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 03:00:13 -0800
> >From: bofus? <bofus@mindspring.com>
> >1968: While other New-Left leaders preach violent overthrow of the U.S.
> >Government and creation of a Marxist dictatorship, Leary urges instead a
> >nonviolent, drug-oriented "hippie capitalism," an artsy-craftsy,
> >decentralized, libertarian sort of entrepeneurship that will also soon
> >find its expression in the culture of the Grateful Dead. While Leary's
> >position does constitute a rejection of the corporate world, it also
> >embraces private property and the profit motive. Because of this, the
> >Marxist Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) denounces Leary and his
> >noncommunist followers for "limiting the revolution." The Progressive
> >Labor Party (PLP), a Maoist "Old Left" group, goes so far as to claim
> >that Leary is a CIA agent. But the PLP is accusing everyone it disgarees
> >with of being CIA.
> >
> >1969: Leary critics will eventually point with suspicion to his close
> >connections during this time to an international LSD-smuggling cartel,
> >the Brotherhood of Eternal Love, which is rumored to be a CIA front. The
> >Brotherhood is controlled by Ronald Stark, whom an Italian High Court
> >will later conclude has been a CIA agent since 1960, and the
> >Brotherhood's funds are channeled through Castle Bank in the Bahamas, a
> >known CIA "proprietary." For two years Leary lives at Brotherhood
> >headquarters, located on a ranch in Laguna Beach. During this period,
> >the Brotherhood corners the U.S. market on LSD and begins distributing
> >only one variety of the drug, "Orange Sunshine." Stark says he plans to
> >distribute the product to CIA-backed guerillas fighting Chinese
> >occupation; he reportedly knows a high-placed Tibetan close to the Dalai
> >Lama, and wants to provide enough LSD to dose all Chinese troops in
> >Tibet. In the U.S., meanwhile, Stark provides enough Orange Sunshine to
> >dose the hippie culture and radical left many times over. This is the
> >"bad acid" on which Charles Manson's followers murder Sharon Tate, and
> >on which Hell's Angels stab to death a black man during a concert by the
> >Rolling Stones. The Summer of Love has been supplanted by a Season of
> >Hate. Because of this, many countercultural insiders -- including
> >William S. Burroughs, White Panther leader John Sinclair, and Merry
> >Prankster Ken Kesey -- will eventually entertain the theory that Stark,
> >Leary, and Orange Sunshine are all part of CIA plot to discredit and
> >neutralize the radical left. According to former radicals Martin Lee and
> >Bruce Shalin, widespread use of Orange Sunshine "contributed
> >significantly to the demise of the New Left, for it heightened the
> >metabolism of the body politic and accelerated all the changes going
> >on... In its hyped-up condition, the New Left burned itself out."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:20:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: flash back Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
In-Reply-To: <v03110708b0ba6e1151a8@[156.46.45.109]>
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"When we heard about the hippies, the barely more than boys and
girls who decided to try something different . . . we laughed at
them. Smug in our certain awareness that . . . communal life must
be more difficult even than nuclear family life, which we know,
to our very nerve endings, is disastrous, we condemned them, our
children, for seeking a different future. We hated them for their
flowers, for their love, and for their unmistakeable rejection of
every hideous, mistaken compromise that we had made throughout
our hollow, money-bitten, frightened, adult lives."
---June Jordan (b. 1939), U.S. poet, civil rights activist.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:23:04 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
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Jo- in the original excerpt that statement was made about orange sunshine
destroying the Liberal movement- i was just reacting to that statement.
Gene
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:24:41 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: ltics discussion
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> Subject:
> The Last Time I Committed Suicide...
> Date:
> Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:00:31 -0500
> From:
> Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
>
>
> I rented this movie last night and I enjoyed it but I have a question.
> Keanu Reeve's character,Harry,...who was that supposed to be? And that guy
> Ben? Who was that? I didn't recognize anyone from Beat lore in that movie
> except for Neal and Joan.
> ~Nancy
> PS Great soundtrack,though
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
>
Isn't that because the Cherry Mary letter was written before the big
Beat meeetings took place?
Also, I think that Ben is the name of the character that everyone here a
few weeks ago thought was supposed to be allen ginsberg?
help me out, please...
Oh, just for the record, I kinda liked the film, however I'm still
waiting for a better portrayal of the Beat Gen. (Did anyone ever see
that gawdawful movie called 'Heartbeat'?) (YUCK!)
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:31:31 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: marie's goin' mo-bile....
Comments: cc: country@sover.net
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>
> Subject:
> on the rails
> Date:
> Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:48:41 +0000
> From:
> Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>
>
>
> hi everyone. i'll be taking off early tomorrow on marathon 3 day train
> trip east to west coast. will have a hot mail account set up by leon, my
> oh so wondrous and gracious host, so i'm not setting nomail. talk to all
> sometime later in the week. i'm looking forward to some great stories to
> tell, via interviewing folks on tape. and of course my readings. ack!!!
> have a great holiday season
> i'm going from one and a half feet of snow and below 0 temps to the
> sunnier climes of santa cruz, el nino and all.
> mc
"What is that feeling when you're driving away from people and they
recede on the plain till you see their specks dispersing?--it's the too
huge world vaulting us, and it's good-by. But we lean forward to the
next crazy venture beneath the skies."
--Jack Kerouac
On the Road
Marie:
talk to you soon,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:56:55 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Hpark4 <Hpark4@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: The Place
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I'm not certain about "The Place" but I just recommend a leasurely walk around
the main streets and side alleys of North Beach. Vesuvio's and Spec's are two
bars with beat-era roots. I think the Purple Onion, where Lenny Bruce
performed, is still around. Above all, "ya just gotta poke around."
Howard Park
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:51:17 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
Comments: To: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971214210542.006aba80@pop.pipeline.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thank you very much for the Henry Miller interview stuff on Kerouac. It
seems to me, although I am saying this out of intuition five minutes after
I got up rather than after a lot of thought, that the two are in many ways
similar or sympathetic writers...
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
"All growth is a leap in the dark, a spontaneous unpremeditated act
without benefit of experience."
--Henry Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:22:47 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Full mail box
If you have a full mail box, all your mail is bounced back to the
sender. Hence, it's impossible to notify you that you are being deleted
from beat-l. Such a notification would only bounce back. Best thing to
do if you notice you are not receiving Beat-l messages is to simply
re-subscribe.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:48:58 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Ronald Laing and Michael McClure.
In-Reply-To: <v03110708b0ba6e1151a8@[156.46.45.109]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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"Once Ronald Laing came in Rome he met Michael and
JoAnna McClure. Ronald, everyone called him Ronnie,
was happy of chat with them. When he was drunk he
sat down apart and he chatted in a low voice with
Michael McClure."---from an article by F. Pivano,1979.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:51:02 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: (FWD-excerpt from)Was Timothy Leary a CIA Agent?
In-Reply-To: <v03110708b0ba6e1151a8@[156.46.45.109]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
jo wrote:
>I seem to have have missed something.
>
>What link is working on such things as "orange sunsihe destroy[ed] the
>liberal movement...?"
>
>I really want to archive this thread.
>
>j grant
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
jo, it's me rinaldo, i think it's a serious topic the luck of
leftism in the western countries. i was in the 60s & 70s a
new leftist activist. i'm perhaps in a dark-esque stage of
life but it's discouraging matter to realize i/(we) was/(were)
manipulated by marionnettistes. it elapsed circa 30year ago but...
democracy is the background to a beat way of life. let imagine
a world where won the nazism and tell us what it would happened?
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:54:44 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: leary--CIA????
Comments: To: cawilkie@comic.net
In-Reply-To: <34953953.7A97@comic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
cathy says:
>Has anyone ever read "Shrodinger's Cat" by Robert Anton Wilson?
>
>this little scenario sounds like it was taken right out of that book...
>
>
>cathy
>
>
the issue: please check this web site:
http://home.dti.net/lawserv/leary.html
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:16:20 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-15 00:47:18 EST, you write:
<< Marlene,
It was a typo. The original was:
"cock/tail parties on campus???!!! " >>
hee hee
~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:19:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: mystic fire videos at the library
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-15 09:31:35 EST, you write:
<< ksenija, are you recommending the film? This is very faint praise. I have
resolved to watch it again but not until next week. I promise not to post my
reaction to the list (unless, of course, I see the light and decide to
profess
the brilliance of the film, the actors, or the director:>)
Dennis >>
i'll watch it again as well, dennis, and maybe i'll post what i find redeeming
about the film. oops, redemption....that was a whole 'nother thread.
~~marlene
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:20:29 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: invisible man pic
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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on the road to wichita,
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--------------48C2423D3B84--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:25:50 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-15 12:04:22 EST, you write:
<< Thank you very much for the Henry Miller interview stuff on Kerouac. It
seems to me, although I am saying this out of intuition five minutes after
I got up rather than after a lot of thought, that the two are in many ways
similar or sympathetic writers...
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark. >>
this is amazing to me, because all i know of miller is how anais nin describes
him in her diaries. i never paired him up with JK from her interpretation of
miller's writing. what makes you say "similar?"
~~marlene
(i just keep posting and posting)
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:52:58 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: invisible man pic
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Patricia,
A very interesting image.....photo? Is it a photo? I see an upright
figure bent slightly forward to the left, but projecting to the right from
the base of the figure another figure in which I think I can make out a
face/head with fedora...which is figure, which is shadow?....how much is
imagination? Tell me more!
Antoine
*******************
on the road to wichita,
Attachment Converted: C:\DOWNLOAD\wsbshado.jpg
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:01:10 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Marlene- I had read that Miller interview awhile back. Miller and Jk's
writing styles are nowhere close in style. Personally i always had a rough
time with Miller's fiction but his essays are absolutely brilliant! And he was
quite the stud!
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:00:54 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: invisible man pic
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Antoine Maloney wrote:
>
> Patricia,
>
> A very interesting image.....photo? Is it a photo? I see an upright
> figure bent slightly forward to the left, but projecting to the right from
> the base of the figure another figure in which I think I can make out a
> face/head with fedora...which is figure, which is shadow?....how much is
> imagination? Tell me more!
>
> Antoine
>
> *******************
>
> on the road to wichita,
>
it is a very poor copy of a great picture of williams shadow on the
window of a vehicle.The back ground is some strange distortion of the
flint hills. the picture was one of John myers, he rented the billy
plymell room this summer at the new beat hotel.. I wish i had scanned
the original. wonderful colors. John will probably return from belize
nest summer, i love the image, it is a great one of williams wonderful
beak.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:23:55 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: a Gus Van Sant movie.
In-Reply-To: <v03110708b0ba6e1151a8@[156.46.45.109]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hello, it's me Rinaldo, tonite the italian domestic tv channel
rete4 has broadcasted the movie "Beautiful And Damned"
directed by Gus Van Sant (dedicated to Scott Melloo Nall, Jr.)
cast of characters: mike waters river phoenix
scott favor keanu reeves
richard waters james russo
bob pigeon william richert
etc.
additional dialogues by william shakespeare and thanks to B-52's.
this film has an unique feeling mixing the professional images
with those 5mm homemade films (before the cam recorder) to take
our soul as a remembrance/dream. the character doddy carroll mike
cotrell seems jack kerouac, and the richard mike water's death
has maybe something to do with the death of Neal Cassady on the
railroad, the freeway as railroad. saluti a tutti from italia.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:46:27 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the visible men
In-Reply-To: <v03110708b0ba6e1151a8@[156.46.45.109]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_882218787==_"
--=====================_882218787==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac (photo)
&
a jk's pome dedicated to patricia elliott:
ROSE POME by Jack Kerouac
I'd rather be thin than famous,
I dont wanta be fat,
And a woman throws me outa bed
Callin me Gordo, & everytime
I bend
to pickup
my suspenders
from the davenport
floor I explode
loud huge grunt-o
and disgust
every one
in the familio
I'd rather be thin than famous
But I'm fat
Paste that in yr. Broadway Show
--=====================_882218787==_
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--=====================_882218787==_--
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:51:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: a Gus Van Sant movie.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971215222355.00b8e5a0@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Van Sant dedicates his new movie "Good Will Hunting" to Allen Ginsberg
and William S. Burroughs. The dedication comes as the main character is
seen driving away down an empty highway, having chosen to search for love
over having a career. Very poignant.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:24:17 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject: kerouac or bust
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Season's greetings to all!
Did any of you happen to notice that in the issue of the _NY Times Book
Review_ with the article by Robert Stone about Kerouac and Melville
(12/7/97) there also appeared an advertisement (on p. 68, lower left
corner) for famous busts which included Kerouac. The firm is Fred Blatt
out of Fly Creek, NY (with this address he should be doing busts of
Brautigan and Hemingway). Has anyone seen any of his work? Or perhaps does
anyone even own one? The ad said the prices range from $49-$79. Anyone
with special information on this item?
Cordially,
Mike Skau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:28:47 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ken Ostrander <kenster@MIT.EDU>
Subject: HENRY MILLER
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Once you have given up the ghost, everything follows with dead
certainty, even in the midst of chaos. From the beginning it was never
anything but chaos: it was a fluid which enveloped me, which I breathed in
through the gills. In the substrata, where the moon shone steady and
opaque, it was smooth and fecunding; above it was a jangle and a discord.
In everything I quickly saw the opposite, the contradiction, and between
the real and the unreal the irony, the paradox. I was my own worst enemy.
There was nothing I wished to do which I could just as well not do. Even
as a child, when I lacked for nothing, I wanted to die: I wanted to
surrender because I saw no sense in struggling. I felt that nothing would
be proved, substantiated, added or subtracted by continuing an existence
which I had not asked for. Everybody around me was a failure, or if not a
failure, ridiculous. Especially the successful ones. The successful ones
bored me to tears. I was sympathetic to a fault, but it was not sympathy
that made me so. It was a purely negative quality, a weakness which
blossomed at the mere sight of human misery. I never helped any one
expecting that it would do any good; I helped because I was helpless to do
otherwise. To want to change the condition of affairs seemed futile to me;
nothing would be altered, I was convinced, except by a change of heart, and
who could change the hearts of men? Now and then a friend was converted:
it was something to make me puke. I had no more need of God than He of me,
and if there were one, I often said to myself, I would meet Him calmly and
spit in his face.
-from TROPIC OF CAPRICORN
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 18:28:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Donald G. Jr. Lee" <donlee@COMP.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Henry Miller
Comments: To: M84M79 <M84M79@AOL.COM>
In-Reply-To: <26d191b1.34956820@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
A couple of things--for one, their mutual ties w/ the French language.
That may seem minor, but Kerouac's Frenchcanadian background is one reason
(I forget who said this) for his becoming an Outsider--he was born into a
cultural minority. And Miller of course was truly in love w/ all things
Gallic. Plus their mutual "religious" leanings, in both cases quite
outside the realm of "normal" religious interest--though Kerouac came back
to "normal" Catholicism in his later years, her certainly roamed around
before that. I've just been reading a book of letters between Miller and
a literary critic named Wallace Fowlie, a friend of his, and they seem
almost entirely "religious" in nature. I think a book like Miller's BIG
SUR AND THE ORANGES OF HIERONYMOUS BOSCH shows a definite spiritual
nature. And speaking of Outsiders, Miller of course became one in his
mid-thirties when he took off for Paris. Finally, I consider both great
Artists (capital-A) because both of them--Miller in TROPIC OF CANCER and
Kerouac in ON THE ROAD--tried to push past and beyond the normal
strictures of what the form (the novel) could do, and both succeeded and
carved out new territory in the landscape of Literature.
Yadda-yadda. Howzat?
cordially,
Don Lee
Fayetteville, Ark.
"All growth is a leap in the dark, a spontaneous unpremeditated act
without benefit of experience."
--Henry Miller
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 19:44:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: HENRY MILLER
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Pretty wild stuff! Miller was out there.
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:34:29 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: Re: Kerouac & Poe
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>2. Closed on Account of Rabies (2 Cds or Cass) 16.00
>(includes shipping, handling and tax)
>Poems and Tales of Edgar Allen Poe
>New from Mouth Almighty/Mercury Records
>features a number of artists doing Poe
>including:
>Iggy Pop "The Tell-Tale Heart"
>Marianne Faithfull "Alone"
>Dr. John "Berenice"
>Christopher Walken "The Raven"
>Diamanda Galas "The Black Cat"
>plus many more
>Cool production by Hal Wilner
>
Don't forget Ed Sanders on two tracks as well...an essay on Poe by
Baudelaire is included and an essay with anecdotes on Ginsberg whom I'm
surprised did not read on this compilation. Ginsberg makes the remark that
everything starts with Poe. I remember in Lowell back in 1992 he gave a long
recall of the literary influences of the Beats...he even said then that Poe
"woke us from our dogmatic slumber" and was the "first to make us paranoid."
Also, from there the French Symbolists guided them in sensorium of the
world's vibes.. .Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Verlaine. Christopher Walken reading
The Raven is worth the price of the set alone! Just like he did in The Dead
Zone.
>
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:45:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: a Gus Van Sant movie.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.971215175023.23118A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Good Will Hunting is a Gus Van Sant movie? Mmmmm....
On Mon, 15 Dec 1997, Richard Wallner wrote:
> Van Sant dedicates his new movie "Good Will Hunting" to Allen Ginsberg
> and William S. Burroughs. The dedication comes as the main character is
> seen driving away down an empty highway, having chosen to search for love
> over having a career. Very poignant.
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:01:02 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: the visible men
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-15 19:49:21 EST, you write:
<< Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac (photo) >>
my-oh-my thank you for the photo..i believe that's one of my favorite taken of
jack
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 00:20:09 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: Beautiful and Damned
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rinaldo:
I've never heard of this movie. Was it good? River Phoenix was one of
my favorite actors, and usually Gus Van Sant is a great director (with
the exception of Even Cowgirls Get The Blues). If you or anyone out
there can pass along info on this movie, let me know.
cathy
>
> Subject:
> a Gus Van Sant movie.
> Date:
> Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:23:55 +0100
> From:
> Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
>
>
> hello, it's me Rinaldo, tonite the italian domestic tv channel
> rete4 has broadcasted the movie "Beautiful And Damned"
> directed by Gus Van Sant (dedicated to Scott Melloo Nall, Jr.)
> cast of characters: mike waters river phoenix
> scott favor keanu reeves
> richard waters james russo
> bob pigeon william richert
> etc.
> additional dialogues by william shakespeare and thanks to B-52's.
> this film has an unique feeling mixing the professional images
> with those 5mm homemade films (before the cam recorder) to take
> our soul as a remembrance/dream. the character doddy carroll mike
> cotrell seems jack kerouac, and the richard mike water's death
> has maybe something to do with the death of Neal Cassady on the
> railroad, the freeway as railroad. saluti a tutti from italia.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:11:42 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: michael hanson <hanson@HUM.AUC.DK>
Subject: WSB in Denmark?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi there,
I have recently joined the list, and since some of you seem to posses an
incredible amount of information on the major beatwriters, i wonder if
someone knows anything about WS.Burroughs's connection to Denmark? The
biographies sheds only a dim light on his visits to Denmark besides his
meetings with K.Elvins and the Annexia-inspiration. If you vould help me on
this, I'd be deeply grateful!
Sincerely
Michael Hanson
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:12:48 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Barye Phillips
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
RARA-AVIS, the hard-boiled fiction list, sent me browsing through gifs of old
paperback covers from the 40's and 50's. I stumbled on the 1958 Signet
edition of OTR and some bio about the artist, Barye Phillips. For those
interested:
www.ils.unc.edu/rarebooks/phillips.html which will send you to
www.ils.unc.edu/rarebooks/barye1b.gif (the OTR cover)
3 more days of school....then Christmas vacation!!!!
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:43:59 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M.K." <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: "Counterculture"
In-Reply-To: <199712160459.MAA08635@soran.pacific.net.sg>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi, is anyone willing to share their views on what makes someone/a group
"counterculture", not only in the context of the 1960s but also in today's
world?
Just why were the Beats deemed as "counterculture"? Did they think of
themselves that way (did any of the Beats explicitly call themselves that)
or was this merely the media/society's view of them?
I hope my questions make sense.
Thanks,
Sharon Ngiam.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:41:23 BST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>
Subject: Seasonal Signing-Off
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Once again it's that time for me to attempt to sign-off for
the holidays. The point of this is to ensure that I don't
return to around a thousand e-mails. Unfortunately it never
seems to work. I came back from the summer to 3000 e-mails
which was a waste 'cos I couldn't read 'em all, so I just
deleted the lot. And then found out I'd deleted all the
Burroughs death stuff. Bitch. Anyhow, have a groovy
christmas everyone, and a good new year, and I'll see you in
a few weeks for more fun and adventure on the BEAT-LIST.
It's freezing here, so I'm trying to spend as much time in
the Computer Centre as possible in order to avoid having to
go outside.
Peace.
Tom. H.
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759
"A Bear of Very Little Brain"
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:46:31 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: wake-up?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
hey beat-l'ers
i was wondering if anyone out there might have the entire serialization of
"wake up" by kerouac that was featured in tricycle magazine. if so would
some kind soul out there consider photocopying it for me? i sure would
like to have a look at it. can someone help me?
and as an aside - ive started the ferocious move and boy lemme
tell ya - something like 10 boxes of books up 5 flights of stairs is no
fun. and now i have no book case so i just got piles of books everywhere
(moved my books before my clothes) and rediscoverin great treasures in the
bookpiles) and 2 very confused cats. poor radison. poor pivot.
yrs
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:10:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>
Subject: Re: invisible man pic
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
It was instantly obvious with your description....especially of WSB's
'beak'. Do I see rising clouds or hill faces or what through the window?
When I look at small version it looks like one of those amazing
towering prairie skys.
Antoine
Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal
"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never
cease to be amused."
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:33:02 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: leary--CIA????
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
> cathy says:
> >Has anyone ever read "Shrodinger's Cat" by Robert Anton Wilson?
> >
> >this little scenario sounds like it was taken right out of that book...
> >
> >
> >cathy
> >
> >
> the issue: please check this web site:
>
> http://home.dti.net/lawserv/leary.html
i read this article last evening and found that it wasn't particularly
convincing. one of those cases where coincidences are assumed to be
meaningful i suppose when some coincidences aren't. just as the
importance of Freudian thought must include that sometimes a pencil is
just a pencil for the theories to have any cognitive significance,
Jungian notions of meaningful coincidence are only useful if there exist
situations in which coincidences are deemed un-meaningful.
with regards to the specifics of the article, i'm not clear about what
brainwashing of JFK supposedly took place. certainly there were some
erratic behaviors on his part (supposedly shifting from a connection
with the mob to -- with his brother -- going at the mob full force) but
it doesn't seem to me that necessarily Kennedy's agenda was less liberal
or radical for that matter after the supposed LSD brainwash. Of course,
in the author's rhetoric (which seems to parallel Richard Hofstader's
notion of "the paranoid style") ANY action by JFK could be fit into the
meaningful coincidences associated with the alleged brainwashing -
liberal policies being used to mystify and cover the control of the
CIA!
The story also assumes the version of JFK's history which included
fairly serious pharmacological assistance to his administration of the
nation. His reaction to the cannabis - suggesting as it were that it
was nothing compared to cocaine - seems to suggest someone with
sufficient experience with drug use that the dopamine centers would not
be average by any means and these notions might undermine the
suggestibility of brainwashing techniques under the LSD. Certainly JFK
would have had sufficient awareness of personal chemistry to realize
that something had been altered significantly without his knowledge and
this would have put up a guard against the trustworthiness necessary for
successful brainwashing methods.
The details with regards to Leary (not to mention the forgetting of the
Belladonna influence at the Manson ranch) are perhaps laughable -- even
if they are true. It would be as easy to say that as a radical Leary
taught the exact opposite method of brainwashing in order to promote a
progressive agenda.
Mere financial association with an organization does not mean political
complicity. I had to recall the humor of the situation when i was an
instructor of sorts at Dartmouth College and the radical students in the
divestment movement thought i was an administration spy because i
received a paycheck from the College.
And the fact that other left wing players like Rubin and Ginsberg had
less than kind words to say about Leary hardly makes him a
conspiratorial agent against the liberal wing of America. There may be
more evidence that the efforts to radicalize the liberal wing -
especially in Chicago in 1968 - led to a split of more mainstream
liberals, split the liberal vote among factions of extremes and
guaranteed Tricky Dick's victory.
I'm not suggesting that Leary is innocent. Few of us are when it gets
right down to it. But the article posted in the URL seems more the
ravings of someone in a delusionary state (a condition i'm certifiably
aware of) than any proof of a meaningfully significant Leary-CIA
connection.
just a thought,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:54:41 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: wake-up?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971216084323.50122A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I would love to have piles of books everywhere. Im collecting lots of
books, from everywhere. I live in NYC now, so I always check the used
books table outside Bobst Library(NYU) for books and Ive found good stuff,
even Chanukah presents. Bookshelves are overrated.
~nancy
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> hey beat-l'ers
> i was wondering if anyone out there might have the entire serialization of
> "wake up" by kerouac that was featured in tricycle magazine. if so would
> some kind soul out there consider photocopying it for me? i sure would
> like to have a look at it. can someone help me?
> and as an aside - ive started the ferocious move and boy lemme
> tell ya - something like 10 boxes of books up 5 flights of stairs is no
> fun. and now i have no book case so i just got piles of books everywhere
> (moved my books before my clothes) and rediscoverin great treasures in the
> bookpiles) and 2 very confused cats. poor radison. poor pivot.
> yrs
> derek
>
> ******************************************************************
> Derek Beaulieu
> House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
> #502-728 3rd Ave NW
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
> ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
> "remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
> ******************************************************************
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:15:01 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: wake-up?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> and now i have no book case so i just got piles of books everywhere
> (moved my books before my clothes) and rediscoverin great treasures in the
> bookpiles) and 2 very confused cats. poor radison. poor pivot.
i recommend highly using kitchen shelves as bookshelves. afterall -
books beat food don't they?
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
> yrs
> derek
>
> ******************************************************************
> Derek Beaulieu
> House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
> #502-728 3rd Ave NW
> Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
> ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
> "remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
> ******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:34:07 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Tim an Agent & Countryman's Chi stop
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971215175102.00b8e5a4@pop.gpnet.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>jo wrote:
>>I seem to have have missed something.
>>
>>What link is working on such things as "orange sunsihe destroy[ed] the
>>liberal movement...?"
>>
>>I really want to archive this thread.
>>
>>j grant
>>
>> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
>> Details on-line at
>> http://www.bookzen.com
>> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>>
>jo, it's me rinaldo, i think it's a serious topic the luck of
>leftism in the western countries. i was in the 60s & 70s a
>new leftist activist. i'm perhaps in a dark-esque stage of
>life but it's discouraging matter to realize i/(we) was/(were)
>manipulated by marionnettistes. it elapsed circa 30year ago but...
>democracy is the background to a beat way of life. let imagine
>a world where won the nazism and tell us what it would happened?
I have to backpeddle and figure this out. I'm missing something. Acid,
particluarly Orange Sunshine, looking back almost 30 years, had a powerful
influence on me. Positive all the way. I miss it. Back then, and I feel the
same way today but the political climate is such that I set aside the
desires to seek, I enjoyed a serious trip every year or so. Cleared the
cobwebs, opened my eyes, marvelled at the beauty, the unseen....
I smile to myself picturing the knowing smiles on the list.
If I had it to do all over again I'd probably be in a lab with a Ph.D. in
organic chemistry or pharmacology devoting myself to research.
Hmmm
j grant
**
Note to Marie Countryman.
By the time you get this you'll have been met by a freind of mine. I have
no doubt that your brief layover will be one you'll remember. Jerry (and
possibly Arthur will join him) are two that are one-of-a-kind.
I ended up with a sick neighbor child and a delayed aniversary dinner I had
committed to preparing and tonight HAD to be the night.
See you on your return.
jo
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:38:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: invisible man pic
In-Reply-To: <349566DD.E50@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>on the road to wichita,
>
Patricia. That picture is incredible. Please. Some information about it.
Sure, on the road to Witchita, but more please. Camera, film,( filters?).
Stunning.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:09:29 -0800
Reply-To: mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: eric mayhew <mayhewe@SONOMA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Barye Phillips
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
DCardKJHS wrote:
>
> RARA-AVIS, the hard-boiled fiction list, sent me browsing through gifs of old
> paperback covers from the 40's and 50's. I stumbled on the 1958 Signet
> edition of OTR and some bio about the artist, Barye Phillips. For those
> interested:
>
> www.ils.unc.edu/rarebooks/phillips.html which will send you to
>
> www.ils.unc.edu/rarebooks/barye1b.gif (the OTR cover)
>
> 3 more days of school....then Christmas vacation!!!!
> Dennis
Who is Barye Phillips? Sorry if that sounds like an ignorant question,
but i really don't know.
eric mayhew
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:02:25 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Junky's Christmas
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you're in a good festive seasonal mood you should read Willaim =
Burroughs' hilarious "Junky's Christmas" =
http://www.systime.dk/fagbank/engelsk/online/beatgen/junkxmas.htm
Jens
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:28:43 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Kerouac's Last Dream
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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The other week there were some posts about music influenced by Beats. I =
didn't get to read all the posts, but I would imagine that Ramblin' Jack =
Elliott's 1980 record KEROUAC'S LAST DREAM wasn't mentioned. It was =
never published in the country that 99 % of this list's members live in. =
It was recently released on CD, and at first it appears to be a =
completely traditional folk record by the man who bridged the gap =
between Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan. Indeed in among half a dozen trad =
songs are three songs by Guthrie and two by Dylan.=20
But the last two items on the 70-minute disc are the only two songs =
Elliott ever wrote, one of which is titled "912 GREENS". It is a =
10-minute sort of spontaneous autobiographical talking blues about a =
road trip the singer made down south to Frank Hamilton & Guy Carawan's =
uncle. Somewhere along the way in Mexico Jack suddenly finds a chair =
carved out of Mexican wood and he just knows that the other Jack sat =
in that chair a month ago so he sits down in that chair and composes =
this ballad about Jack Kerouac.=20
At the end of the talking blues Elliott starts to sing a few lines, but =
that's all - thank god !
If you ever thought Bob Dylan couldn't sing you should listen to =
Ramblin' Jack Elliott...
Jim Musselman's the owner of Appleseed Records says in the notes : "let =
us lift a glass and toast the old songs that say so much, while =
honouring the spirit of Jack Kerouac, Alan Ginsberg, Cisco Houston, =
Woody Guthrie and the road."
Cheers
Jens
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:58:02 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>Hi, is anyone willing to share their views on what makes someone/a group
>"counterculture", not only in the context of the 1960s but also in
>today's
>world?
very easy... the majority of folks have natures which require
stability, normalism, schedules, organization, etc. to be comfortable
and happy, J's if you're keen on Myers-Briggs Type Indicator... any
group that, intentionally or not, goes against the current of a
contemporary culture is deemed counterculture, and generally has
negative connotations... america is a special case of course, two
polarities on the MBTI scale are S, which is Sensing, and N, which is
Intuitive.. very obscurely they refer to how folks gather and use
information.. sensory folks are, in a black and white definition of the
two, naturally disposed to realism and hands-on sensory-based
interaction with their environment, while intuitives live largely in
their heads and are naturally disposed to abstraction. the cliches
that apply are that S's have both feet planted firmly on the ground and
that N's are dreamers and have their heads in the clouds.. this of
course is a generalization, but i can only explain so much right
here... America is the only country in which S's and N's dislike each
other... which is a root of many social problems we experience... an
epidemic that taints all areas of our lives, the american obsession
with right and wrong.. a country that says they are they most tolerant,
most open-minded, most sexually free and self-loving, but which, in
reality, are filled with sexual angst, an unhealthy obsession with
idealism, a hate for others who don't think the way their group does,
and self-loathing... the country of hypocrasy... the collective thought
process is one of the spiteful adolescent.. this may all be a function
of collective thinking and not individual thinking... but america is,
again despite what it claims, ultra-conformist, in the most disgusting,
happiness-killing sense of the word. any "subculture" that does not
play along with the facade is prime fodder for the counterculture label
because it reminds everyone that our established perceptions of our
individual selves and our culture as a whole are bullshit, plain and
simple. there is a reason, afterall, for a resurgence of cynicism in
america's contemplative young, unfortunately it usually manifests
itself in forms of egotism and an elevated sense of importance through
intellectualism, again unhealthy perceptions. another example of
american hypocrasy is the blatant fact that, even more now than ever,
we preach many planks of the communist platform we've fought so
vigilantly against in the latter half of this century.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:34:17 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's Last Dream
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:28:43 +0100 from
<jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Gee, I always thought Elliott had the edge over Dylan when it came to a singing
voice -- but not by very much! I've been listening to Elliott recently and I
wondered why Elliott wasn't more popular in the early 1960s. So much of early
Dylan was influenced by Elliott as well as Woody. Of course, Bob was a songwri
ter and I'm sure that had something to do with it.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:41:52 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: invisible man pic
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
jo grant wrote:
>
> >on the road to wichita,
> >
> Patricia. That picture is incredible. Please. Some information about it.
> Sure, on the road to Witchita, but more please. Camera, film,( filters?).
>
> Stunning.
>
> j grant
>
Jo, antonia,
the picture is a scan of a Much more impressive photo that John Myers
has. He took a video during a trip with william, several of the guys
were along. and he caught a moment in the car, they took the image from
video to photo, It is all one of reflections. I believe the colors are
reflections from the sky and the flint hills, I loved it, i had just a
moment to scan a copy before john left for belize. John lives in belize
on his boat during the winters. I have been considering making some
lawrence postcards of some of the lawrence beat pictures up for
marketing. there is something in the photo that hits my mark.. I believe
either James or Wayne propst has the original video.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:55:34 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: KRUMMX <KRUMMX@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: new to list...../.Looking for book
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
greetings everyone
just out of curiosity(bad speller)
have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
thanx
seAn
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:53:56 -0700
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
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sean
ewll _the electric kool-aid acid test" is by Tom Wolfe who also write
"the tangerine kolored streamlined baby" and "the right stuff" and piles
of other stuff and is his (new journalism?see also -0hunter thompson's
early book _hells angels_ before the gonzo struck...) account of
interviews and
general hanging out with the scene in the early mid-sixties scene of san
fran (think: ken kesy's merry pranksters, the acid tests, neal cassady,
the grateful dead, hell's angels, haight-ashbury and the whole scene
before it all exploded in a frenzy of media explotation...) as far as i
remmeber kesey wasnt too pleased with his protrayal in that novel, but
with the release of that book and kesey's own _one flew over the
cuckoo's nest_ things really got going for key-z...
great book.
read it.
and then read kesey and other accounts of the haight at the time...
yrs
derek beaulieu
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, KRUMMX wrote:
> greetings everyone
> just out of curiosity(bad speller)
> have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
> if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
> thanx
> seAn
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:40:02 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Kerouac's Last Dream
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Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> Gee, I always thought Elliott had the edge over Dylan when it came to a
singing
> voice -- but not by very much! I've been listening to Elliott recently and I
> wondered why Elliott wasn't more popular in the early 1960s. So much of early
> Dylan was influenced by Elliott as well as Woody. Of course, Bob was a
songwri
> ter and I'm sure that had something to do with it.
even with a better voice Elliott did not sing the elite intellectual
eastcoast ten-part harmony type of folk music. he definitely would have
been considered hillbilly music by a lot of folk folks where the market
was developing by the 60s.
just a guess,
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:46:54 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Junky's Christmas
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Jens Koch wrote:
>
> If you're in a good festive seasonal mood you should read Willaim Burroughs'
hilarious "Junky's Christmas"
http://www.systime.dk/fagbank/engelsk/online/beatgen
> Jens
or listen to it on "Spare Ass Annie" cd....(i think i was married to old
annie!)
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:52:17 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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M.K. wrote:
>=20
> Hi, is anyone willing to share their views on what makes someone/a grou=
p
> "counterculture", not only in the context of the 1960s but also in toda=
y's
> world?
>=20
> Just why were the Beats deemed as "counterculture"? Did they think of
> themselves that way (did any of the Beats explicitly call themselves th=
at)
> or was this merely the media/society's view of them?
>=20
> I hope my questions make sense.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Sharon Ngiam.
i discuss it in my round about way in the following out of "Firewalk
thru Madness" copyright 1992
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
November 12th 1992.... typed (Eulogy for the Dead Poetry Professor in
all of us) . ..
(Eulogy for the Dead Poetry Professor in all of us) ...=20
Poetry -- -- -- the art of glimpsing into the aleph ...the infinity and
nothingness of the unconsciousness and tapping into the streams of
consciousness ... rivers of images ... oceans of ideas ... symbols -
pictures - art ... POETRY ... free associating between unconscious
symbology like in a dream but your conscious mind is there too .. .
conscious and unconscious together joined in the poetic instant --
reflexive -- instantaneous -- connections .... of images and ideas.
And it isn=92t found in dusty books ...You might find it there, but it=92=
s
in life ... it IS life, being in and out of existence at the same time
the connection of the images of the=20
you <in time and space>
with the images of=20
you <from the self
<<that lies outside those dimensions>>
>
and in the poetic instant -- life is real ... not plastic .... And it=92s
about the truth ..... !
=93What is the poetry about?=94 the worn English professor asks the wild
eyed freshman. The professor was too worn to see the fire in the
student=92s eyes. After years of neglect his poetic instinct was
tarnished....in hibernation. he was happy if he got students to get
beyond the notion that =93poetry is something that rhymes=94.
But the wild eyed student glared at the worn professor angry for not
being noticed and he replied with what he felt was real:
=93Poetry is about the truth!=94 he exclaimed.
=93You can=92t say it=92s rational. It doesn=92t follow the linear reaso=
ning of
philosophical or scientific thought. Unlike mathematics poetry is the
belief that 1,7,4,9,8,3,4 is as logical -- or sensible -- a sequence as
1,2,3,4,5,6,7.....=94
The professor looks into the student=92s eyes into the fire of truth ...
laughs insanely ... and dies of a heartattack.
At least he died in a poetic instant, a poetic moment, the shock of
reconnecting with the place where the poetry is -- that space between
time and time between space -- where art resides, where the truth is
visible outside this plastic world.....
-- the shock -- it was too much for the old man thought the wild eyed
student. And then he laughed and he laughed and the other students
stared and they stared. =20
And the senior class President asked =93What are you laughing about ? --
you wild eyed boy !!!=94=20
And the boy said: =93He answered his own question.=94
The Class President stared at him.....the rest of the class stared at
him. =20
=93:Don=92t you get it. He=92s been wanting to know what poetry=92s
about....He=92s been asking the same question year after year and he
doesn=92t find a satisfactory answer ... he doesn=92t find the truth so h=
e
waits in his office for another semester ... another term ... another
chance to ask THE QUESTION ... and another term to dismiss their answers
one by one - - =93
Until I retire to the study to the office hoping that someone will bring
me the answer. The waiting. The wait. That was his life. And finally
somebody has the guts to answer the question. What is poetry about?=20
It=92s about the fucking truth old man. It=92s about life. It=92s not a=
bout
hiding in your study year after year while the truth runs wild in the
streets and hallways. Its about going places....on your feet ... in
your mind ... it=92s active.
What is poetry about? It=92s about seeing infinity and nothing collapse
into each other and surviving the vision...the sound...the experience to
share it with others. And you finally had the nerve to turn and face
the answer to see chaos staring back from your bathroom mirror to hear
the laughter of the abyss rolling like thunder through your ears while
you strain to listen to Lou Reed talk of friends and death .....
you had the nerve. ..........and you turned and the streams of
conscious, the wiring of your mind criss-crossed and you saw: POETRY,
TRUTH ... the space between the lies we all live and you were afraid of
the vision .... afraid to go back and share it and so you did what so
many of them do .................. you died.
There are really only three choices you know. You can die. You can go
insane. Or you can go back into the cave and help people to understand
the truth. The first is the easiest. You took the easy root -- easy
route old man. At least if you went insane you might be able to cross
reality planes with the rest of us and help us keep our balance.
But death it seems like a real cop out - although I can=92t blame anyone
who chooses death either by suicide or natural causes. Life can really
wear you down. =20
So I don=92t blame you old man for choosing death....And I don=92t blame =
you
for going nuts. I understand that from where you=92ve been, your ideas
make just as much sense as this rational sane society that we find
ourselves trapped in.
So you choose to go back to try and share and you=92re sitting at the
table talking to the student and she=92s not plastic like the rest but
she=92s seen so little. You wonder if you have the patience to share all
of this much longer.
She asks you =93What is a radical in our culture today?=94 =93Is there a
place for radicals?=94.....
And you tell her that you don=92t like the word =93radical.=94 It=92s th=
em
labeling us. It=92s a label of domination....Just like insane or mentall=
y
ill. It says you=92re out of the mainstream of society....And even
though their river is flowing full of blood not water poison liquids of
culture flowing through them all gradually forming into the plastic that
surrounds their lives -- =20
they like their river.
And since you see other rivers -- other oceans -- other thoughts and
dreams you are a threat to the main stream. The mainstream might not be
the main one anymore if they see all those other streams all those other
pictures so they call you a radical. =20
Well what does it really tell you about me if someone tells you that
=93I=92m a radical.=94 does it tell you something like =93I=92m a poet-I=
=92m an
artist-I=92m a capitalist-a pastor- a doctor-lawyer-dental assistant=94=20
It=92s just labels trying to define you
Tell you what you are what you think
Who am I? I am who I am. I stole that last line from somewhere maybe a
children=92s cartoon character or maybe from God, I don=92t remember but =
I
don=92t think anybody will mind........
=93What=92s the place for radicals in our culture?=94
Not much use for them, it seems. But you need a few now and then just
to scare people into not changing anything much. Rebels. Are rebels
the same as radicals? Can I be radically non-rebellious?=20
At least in your dreams, said the psychiatrist. Just take four lithium
and call me in the morning.
And i=92m in the attic now Nearly moved from my cave and as I look out
over the Mississippi River into Davenport Iowa I wonder what the people
are thinking in Davenport and I wonder if this is where Kerouac was when
he realized that God really is Pooh-Bear and ........
Lou Reed says I want all of it ... not just some of it .... and I pause,
radically, and wonder ....if I really want all of it, i=92m not even sure
how much of it I need.......
and somehow in this attic -- cold air leaking in through the windows it
seems like I have found it.
What is poetry about? If you have to ask you just don=92t get it. And h=
e
shuts the office door and never returns ...
and the dream of the wild-eyed boy comes back whenever he slips into the
plastic places and pushes him back to the place where the poetry is
..... the nexus, the aleph ....=20
the truth of infinity and nothing in one poetic moment.
That instant contains all of it. Explore that one instant and you will
see it all .....
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:06:21 -0700
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Re: Junky's Christmas
In-Reply-To: <349704DE.51F1@midusa.net>
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beat-l'ers
OR - yes you have another choice!
junkie's xmas was also adapted into a 1/2 hour claymation special direted
in black and white by zeotrope productions (francis ford coppola's
production company) and is damned excellent (this aint no california
raison claymation, folks...)
yrs
derek
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> Jens Koch wrote:
> > If you're in a good festive seasonal mood you should read Willaim Burroughs'
> hilarious "Junky's Christmas"
> http://www.systime.dk/fagbank/engelsk/online/beatgen
> > Jens
>
> or listen to it on "Spare Ass Annie" cd....(i think i was married to old
> annie!)
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
>
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:36:14 -0500
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From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Junky's Christmas
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971216160433.61976A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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I taped it off IFC last year around this time. They showed it and
Drugstore Cowboy back to back. Will make copies if anyone wants to send
me a tape. Produced by VH-1 surprise, surprise.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:48:33 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Junky's Christmas
In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:06:21 -0700 from
<dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:06:21 -0700 Derek A. Beaulieu said:
>beat-l'ers
>OR - yes you have another choice!
>junkie's xmas was also adapted into a 1/2 hour claymation special direted
>in black and white by zeotrope productions (francis ford coppola's
>production company) and is damned excellent (this aint no california
>raison claymation, folks...)
>yrs
>derek
>
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
>> Jens Koch wrote:
>> > If you're in a good festive seasonal mood you should read Willaim
>Burroughs'
>> hilarious "Junky's Christmas"
>> http://www.systime.dk/fagbank/engelsk/online/beatgen
>> > Jens
>>
>> or listen to it on "Spare Ass Annie" cd....(i think i was married to old
>> annie!)
>>
>> david rhaesa
>> salina, Kansas
>>
>
>******************************************************************
>Derek Beaulieu
>House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
>#502-728 3rd Ave NW
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
>ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
>"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
>******************************************************************
Yes, it's a wonderful little film. Just the thing to put you in the Christmas
spirit. I remember a discussion about it on Beat-l last year. It seemed there
was some disagreement on what the ending of the film signified.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 17:50:37 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: Junky's Christmas
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Bill Gargan wrote:
>
> On Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:06:21 -0700 Derek A. Beaulieu said:
> >beat-l'ers
> >OR - yes you have another choice!
> >junkie's xmas was also adapted into a 1/2 hour claymation special direted
> >in black and white by zeotrope productions (francis ford coppola's
> >production company) and is damned excellent (this aint no california
> >raison claymation, folks...)
> >yrs
> >derek
> >
> >On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, RACE --- wrote:
> >> Jens Koch wrote:
> >> > If you're in a good festive seasonal mood you should read Willaim
> >Burroughs'
> >> hilarious "Junky's Christmas"
> >> http://www.systime.dk/fagbank/engelsk/online/beatgen
> >> > Jens
> >>
> >> or listen to it on "Spare Ass Annie" cd....(i think i was married to old
> >> annie!)
> >>
> >> david rhaesa
> >> salina, Kansas
> >>
> >
> >******************************************************************
> >Derek Beaulieu
> >House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
> >#502-728 3rd Ave NW
> >Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
> >ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
> >"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
> >******************************************************************
>
> Yes, it's a wonderful little film. Just the thing to put you in the Christmas
> spirit. I remember a discussion about it on Beat-l last year. It seemed
there
> was some disagreement on what the ending of the film signified.
given the "immaculate fix" recording was played at the memorial service
at the opera house in Lawrence, it seems there is a little evidence for
one of those interpretations. i recall sitting in the opera house
during the playing of it - staring up at WSB's beak sticking out of the
casket, hat on top. i thought. well this will settle things now won't
it. if the immaculate fix meant death things will continue. if the
immaculate fix meant something else, he'll stand up put on his hat, wave
and walk off the stage....and that's no Jayhawk lie.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:13:28 -0500
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From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Four Horsemen
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While purusing the City Lights site, I came across _The Four Horsemen of
the Apocalypse_ by William S. Burroughs. I've never even heard of this
one. Can someone give me some info about it?
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:27:41 -0500
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From: mike rice <mrice@CENTURYINTER.NET>
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
In-Reply-To: <msg1375301.thr-5f8995a0.55d4a82@umit.maine.edu>
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At 02:58 PM 12/16/97 -0500, Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>>Hi, is anyone willing to share their views on what makes someone/a group
>>"counterculture", not only in the context of the 1960s but also in
>>today's
>>world?
>
> very easy... the majority of folks have natures which require
>stability, normalism, schedules, organization, etc. to be comfortable
>and happy, J's if you're keen on Myers-Briggs Type Indicator... any
>group that, intentionally or not, goes against the current of a
>contemporary culture is deemed counterculture, and generally has
>negative connotations... america is a special case of course, two
>polarities on the MBTI scale are S, which is Sensing, and N, which is
>Intuitive.. very obscurely they refer to how folks gather and use
>information.. sensory folks are, in a black and white definition of the
>two, naturally disposed to realism and hands-on sensory-based
>interaction with their environment, while intuitives live largely in
>their heads and are naturally disposed to abstraction. the cliches
>that apply are that S's have both feet planted firmly on the ground and
>that N's are dreamers and have their heads in the clouds.. this of
>course is a generalization, but i can only explain so much right
>here... America is the only country in which S's and N's dislike each
>other... which is a root of many social problems we experience... an
>epidemic that taints all areas of our lives, the american obsession
>with right and wrong.. a country that says they are they most tolerant,
>most open-minded, most sexually free and self-loving, but which, in
>reality, are filled with sexual angst, an unhealthy obsession with
>idealism, a hate for others who don't think the way their group does,
>and self-loathing... the country of hypocrasy... the collective thought
>process is one of the spiteful adolescent.. this may all be a function
>of collective thinking and not individual thinking... but america is,
>again despite what it claims, ultra-conformist, in the most disgusting,
>happiness-killing sense of the word. any "subculture" that does not
>play along with the facade is prime fodder for the counterculture label
>because it reminds everyone that our established perceptions of our
>individual selves and our culture as a whole are bullshit, plain and
>simple. there is a reason, afterall, for a resurgence of cynicism in
>america's contemplative young, unfortunately it usually manifests
>itself in forms of egotism and an elevated sense of importance through
>intellectualism, again unhealthy perceptions. another example of
>american hypocrasy is the blatant fact that, even more now than ever,
>we preach many planks of the communist platform we've fought so
>vigilantly against in the latter half of this century.
>
>
Shut Up!
Mike Rice
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 18:50:48 EST
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From: Jjdorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
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great book...author Tom Wolfe. Cassady is called "speed limit" in the book.
a book to read every 3 or 4 years so one doesn't forget.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:47:03 -0500
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From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
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The Electric KoolAid Acid Test was written by Tom Wolfe (Bonfire of the
Vanities) and its about the Ken Kesey(One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest) and
the Merry Pranksters. Its a pretty good book but some parts get sludgy. I
recommend it to anyone.
~Nancy
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, KRUMMX wrote:
> greetings everyone
> just out of curiosity(bad speller)
> have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
> if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
> thanx
>
> seAn
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:43:10 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: [Fwd: December Book Arrivals.]
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Don't know if these will be on any Xmas lists. I'm not nearly deep
enough into the literature to know more than the most famous names.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
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Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:48:23 -0500 (EST)
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To: race@midusa.net
Subject: December Book Arrivals.
Include Underworld in both an ARC and signed copy, as well as White Noise
signed, a broadside by beat legend
Harold Norse, books by John Ashberry and Rick Moody, and an early little mage
appearance by Jack Gilbert. If you get a chance, check out these books and many
more
at www.synaethesia.com - thanks.
-----------------------
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:17:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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Don't think I ever encountered that word prior to 1965...then as a label for
Hippies, Vietnam War protesters, heads, etc....I'll check the OED and get back
with first citation.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:40:41 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
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Nancy, I got the book out on my desk, a bit of sludge sounds interesting.
Can you point me to it? Thanks
Happy holidays everyone
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
Its a pretty good book but some parts get sludgy.
>I recommend it to anyone.
>~Nancy
>
> On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, KRUMMX wrote:
>
>> greetings everyone
>> just out of curiosity(bad speller)
>> have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
>> if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
>> thanx
>>
>> seAn
>>
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:43:49 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: DCardKJHS <DCardKJHS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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In a message dated 97-12-16 10:53:13 EST, Sharon Ngiam wrote:
<< Just why were the Beats deemed as "counterculture"? Did they think of
themselves that way (did any of the Beats explicitly call themselves that)
or was this merely the media/society's view of them?
>>
Tyson's exegesis was similar to (though considerably lengthier than) that
which I found in the OED. Their first citation is from The Atlantic Monthly
in 1970, an article about the plethora of magazines and newspapers catering to
"the counterculture". I was surprised, though I'm not sure why, to see that
the OED associated the counterculture with young people and revolution.
Perhaps, I was expecting their definition to be somewhat drier than it was.
Who knows, I'm INTJ.
Dennis
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:01:56 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
but america is,
> again despite what it claims, ultra-conformist, in the most disgusting,
> happiness-killing sense of the word. any "subculture" that does not
> play along with the facade is prime fodder for the counterculture label
> because it reminds everyone that our established perceptions of our
> individual selves and our culture as a whole are bullshit, plain and
> simple.
if it makes you feel any better, it is not just america.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:17:17 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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>=20
> And it isn=92t found in dusty books ...You might find it there, but it=92=
s
> in life ... it IS life, being in and out of existence at the same time
'knowledge it truth that is dead, but not buried'
e.e.cummings
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 01:40:07 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: "Counterculture" according to crass
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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<A HREF="http://www.southern.com/southern/label/CRC/text/09438.html">Series
of Shock Slogans and Mindless Token Ta...</A>
http://www.southern.com/southern/label/CRC/text/09438.html
i thought this was a pretty good essay, it's about the history of
countercultures, starting with the beats and going to, i think, 1984 or so.
have a nice night and a happy halloween
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 06:29:27 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ksenija Simic wrote:
>=20
> >
> > And it isn=92t found in dusty books ...You might find it there, but i=
t=92s
> > in life ... it IS life, being in and out of existence at the same tim=
e
> 'knowledge it truth that is dead, but not buried'
>=20
> e.e.cummings
interesting line....have to think about that - doubt i'll agree with old
e.e. on that one. seems to me it is alive but forgotten and the people
forgetting are dead but not buried.
thanks for the quote.
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:06:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
Comments: To: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
In-Reply-To: <01bd0aa5$edfe75c0$455de3a5@mbay69.cruzio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Leon-
When I said slugdy, I meant that some parts seem to never end and you feel
like your sludging through the book, as opposed to reading it. Sorry about
that. Anyway, the parts where he talks endlessly about himself(Wolfe) and
towards the end, is when it seems to drag.
~Nancy
On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:
> Nancy, I got the book out on my desk, a bit of sludge sounds interesting.
> Can you point me to it? Thanks
>
> Happy holidays everyone
> leon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:43 PM
> Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
>
>
> Its a pretty good book but some parts get sludgy.
> >I recommend it to anyone.
> >~Nancy
> >
> > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, KRUMMX wrote:
> >
> >> greetings everyone
> >> just out of curiosity(bad speller)
> >> have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
> >> if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
> >> thanx
> >>
> >> seAn
> >>
> >
> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> >Sure-JK
> >.-
> >
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:27:59 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>
> Leon-
> When I said slugdy, I meant that some parts seem to never end and you feel
> like your sludging through the book, as opposed to reading it. Sorry about
> that. Anyway, the parts where he talks endlessly about himself(Wolfe) and
> towards the end, is when it seems to drag.
> ~Nancy
>
> On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:
>
> > Nancy, I got the book out on my desk, a bit of sludge sounds interesting.
> > Can you point me to it? Thanks
> >
> > Happy holidays everyone
> > leon
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
> > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:43 PM
> > Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
> >
> >
> > Its a pretty good book but some parts get sludgy.
> > >I recommend it to anyone.
> > >~Nancy
> > >
> > > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, KRUMMX wrote:
> > >
> > >> greetings everyone
> > >> just out of curiosity(bad speller)
> > >> have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
> > >> if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
> > >> thanx
> > >>
> > >> seAn
> > >>
> > >
> > >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> > >Sure-JK
> > >.-
> > >
> >
>
> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
> Sure-JK
Leon,
are you in the book? how does the book compare to your memories of the
time?
hope San Francisco is ready for the entrance of Marie to the mix!!!
david rhaesa
salina, Kansas
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:55:56 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Thanks Nancy
I see what you mean. Sludge interested me because it reminded me of winter
time in Lithuania or Wisconsin for that matter. Sludging in galoshes through
the slushes where fine crystalline crisp film of ice crunches into the
watery mud underfoot. I ran from it then but now it has a romantic nostalgic
feel to it. Not a bad simile for parts of the book.
Have a great holiday, everybody
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
>Leon-
>When I said slugdy, I meant that some parts seem to never end and you feel
>like your sludging through the book, as opposed to reading it. Sorry about
>that. Anyway, the parts where he talks endlessly about himself(Wolfe) and
>towards the end, is when it seems to drag.
>~Nancy
>
>On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:
>
>> Nancy, I got the book out on my desk, a bit of sludge sounds interesting.
>> Can you point me to it? Thanks
>>
>> Happy holidays everyone
>> leon
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
>> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
>>
>>
>> Its a pretty good book but some parts get sludgy.
>> >I recommend it to anyone.
>> >~Nancy
>> >
>> > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, KRUMMX wrote:
>> >
>> >> greetings everyone
>> >> just out of curiosity(bad speller)
>> >> have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
>> >> if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
>> >> thanx
>> >>
>> >> seAn
>> >>
>> >
>> >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven
For
>> >Sure-JK
>> >.-
>> >
>>
>
>The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>Sure-JK
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:11:43 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Hi David,
I wouldn't say that I am in the book, you might recall earlier discussion of
journalism and such, but my Barn is where the book came to an end. You can
see a picture of the Barn if you are interested
http://www.levity.com/corduroy/journals/tabory5.htm
This is the time of year when the cliches of goodwill on Hallmark cards work
somewhat so what the hell I will add another to my signature
Have a great holiday everyone
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
>Nancy B Brodsky wrote:
>>
>> Leon-
>> When I said slugdy, I meant that some parts seem to never end and you
feel
>> like your sludging through the book, as opposed to reading it. Sorry
about
>> that. Anyway, the parts where he talks endlessly about himself(Wolfe) and
>> towards the end, is when it seems to drag.
>> ~Nancy
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Leon Tabory wrote:
>>
>> > Nancy, I got the book out on my desk, a bit of sludge sounds
interesting.
>> > Can you point me to it? Thanks
>> >
>> > Happy holidays everyone
>> > leon
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
>> > To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>> > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:43 PM
>> > Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
>> >
>> >
>> > Its a pretty good book but some parts get sludgy.
>> > >I recommend it to anyone.
>> > >~Nancy
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, KRUMMX wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> greetings everyone
>> > >> just out of curiosity(bad speller)
>> > >> have any of you heard of the book Electric Kool Aid Acid Test?
>> > >> if you have could you tell me the author and a summary?
>> > >> thanx
>> > >>
>> > >> seAn
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven
For
>> > >Sure-JK
>> > >.-
>> > >
>> >
>>
>> The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
>> Sure-JK
>
>Leon,
>
>are you in the book? how does the book compare to your memories of the
>time?
>
>hope San Francisco is ready for the entrance of Marie to the mix!!!
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 13:41:00 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: city moon cover
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here is a scan of the city moon, a David Ohle and Roger Martin
publication that was a lawrence staple in the 70's. The necronaut is
one of my favorite words of that publication. All that are gone that
appear in front of you are necronauts.
patricia.
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--------------502518AD6502--
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:54:42 +0000
Reply-To: caridade@mail.telepac.pt
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: caridade <caridade@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: city moon cover
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Patricia Elliott wrote:
>
> here is a scan of the city moon,
Dear Patricia,
would it be to much to ask to see the entire text in that publication?
Through a scanned image maybe?
thank you so much,
daniel
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:15:21 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-----Original Message-----
From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 5:32 AM
Subject: Re: new to list...../.Looking for book
how does the book compare to your memories of the
>time?
I remember the times a lot having lived them every day for a few years. The
book on the other hand I only spent a few hours with quite some time ago. I
remember having been very impressed with it overall. He did capture a lot of
the pranksters trips that rang very true to me. In fact I believe much of
that was from tape recordings. I don't recall too well today the description
of the times. I do recall a story of a young girl turning on to acid at the
barn. Some of it rang bells, some not so much. Sounds like an evasive
answer, and it is until I I look the book over again, soon I hope.
As far as marie, I fully expect a great response when she reads her poetry
here. There is a lot of poetry happening right now in the Bay area, and I
have no doubt she will fit right in and feel at home, but I can tell you
more after it happens.
I would have answered you more fully but I am busily helping to ready
things for her arrival, if not in San Francisco as a whole, just for a cozy
group of us Beat-l listers here. Will keep you posted.
Happy holidays everyone
leon
>
>hope San Francisco is ready for the entrance of Marie to the mix!!!
>
>david rhaesa
>salina, Kansas
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:50:21 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jens Koch <jenskoch@POST1.TELE.DK>
Subject: Re: Junky's Christmas
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Will make copies if anyone wants to send
me a tape. Produced by VH-1 surprise, surprise.
Alex,
I can't send you a tape because I don't have the American format and you =
can't send me a tape because you don't have don't have the European =
format .
But could I ask you or another list member to briefly summarise what the =
film adds to the written story and spoken word version on Spare Ass, or =
in which ways it differs substantially from the others ?
I just asked the same question twice didn't I ? Well one answer would be =
appreciated
Jens
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:13:17 -0500
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From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Junky's Christmas
In-Reply-To: <01BD0B6E.D2C0CA00@ppp37.arh.tele.dk>
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Its just a claymation adaptation of it. Its a lot of fun to see it
dramatized. Nice scene with the immaculate fix. Its in black and white
and opens with a very serene scene of WSB's living room, panning across
his book shelf, Christmas tree, etc. He pulls down a copy of Interzone,
sits down in his chair, puts on his glasses, and the reading from Spare
Ass Annie begins. The narration is the track from the CD. Its nice.
Best adaptation of anything written by Burroughs I've ever seen (probably
the only). After he finishes reading, he puts his glasses and book away
and walks into the dining room where a big group of friends are crowded
around the scrumptiously laid out dinner table. Ends with Burroughs
dishing out the turkey, like a Norman Rockwell painting (the intention I
think). He raises a toast and it ends with "God bless us every one."
Only person I recognized was Grauerholz, though I did see a few familiar
names in the credits. He was executive producer or something else as
well.
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:11:10 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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>Tyson's exegesis was similar to (though considerably lengthier than)
>that
>which I found in the OED. Their first citation is from The Atlantic
>Monthly
>in 1970, an article about the plethora of magazines and newspapers
>catering to
>"the counterculture". I was surprised, though I'm not sure why, to see
>that
>the OED associated the counterculture with young people and revolution.
>Perhaps, I was expecting their definition to be somewhat drier than it
>was.
>Who knows, I'm INTJ.
well, i apologize for the length, started talking about something
that really interested me and got carried away... what is the OED by
the way? a dictionary?
Tyson (an INFP)
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:14:29 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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>> happiness-killing sense of the word. any "subculture" that does not
>> play along with the facade is prime fodder for the counterculture
>label
>> because it reminds everyone that our established perceptions of our
>> individual selves and our culture as a whole are bullshit, plain and
>> simple.
>if it makes you feel any better, it is not just america.
i'm not sure that it does, but i'm also not sure that anything can
really be done about it... i may have been whining about it but you
can't let it bother you too much... c'est la vie, eh?
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 23:15:24 -0500
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From: Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>
Subject: downtime
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Just letting everyone know I'll be "off the bus" for a bit as I've got to
haul my computer halfway across the state for an upgrade but will return
better than ever (at least on my end) in about a week or so.
Anyone wants to reach me, info is below.
Kisses and the best of your selected religious blessings to all,
------------------
Alex Howard (704)264-8259 Appalachian State University
kh14586@am.appstate.edu P.O. Box 12149
http://www1.appstate.edu/~kh14586 Boone, NC 28608
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 00:13:13 EST
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From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: I am no memory babe
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can someone help me--
in what essay, poem, interview, or sangha did Ginsberg say
"Candor prevents paranoia" ???
i was staring at my copy of Big Sur today thinking "Candor Prevents Paranoia
Except in Jack Kerouac's Case" and realized i couldnt remember where i'd heard
Ginsberg say that.
anyone know?
thanks-- Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:56:53 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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RACE --- wrote:
>=20
> Ksenija Simic wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > And it isn=92t found in dusty books ...You might find it there, but=
it=92s
> > > in life ... it IS life, being in and out of existence at the same t=
ime
> > 'knowledge it truth that is dead, but not buried'
> >
> > e.e.cummings
>=20
> interesting line....have to think about that - doubt i'll agree with ol=
d
> e.e. on that one. seems to me it is alive but forgotten and the people
> forgetting are dead but not buried.
>=20
> thanks for the quote.
>=20
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
i think that the knowledge he had in mind was the one you learn in
school and find in books and not the one you acquire yourself. it may
sound different out of the context, though.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 22:24:34 -0800
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From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: i want to know...
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as it seems that you people know everything, i'm sure that you can fill
me in on transcendentalists.
right?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:49:12 +0000
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From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: downtime
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Dear Beatles
Well Alex is gone for awhile but I am back after a hiatus caused by a hard drive
crash
and lengthened by incompetent service but am back upgraded and ready to rock and
roll.
Lost lots of work--so am reminding everyone like your mother would--BACK UP
THOSE DAMN
FILES.
Looks like I missed some good threads, especially the Big Sur--but if memory
serves they
will all come round again like the Gen X thread and the "is blah blah beat?"
theme.
Hope everyone is having a beatific holiday season.
James Stauffer
Alex Howard wrote:
>
> Just letting everyone know I'll be "off the bus" for a bit as I've got to
> haul my computer halfway across the state for an upgrade but will return
> better than ever (at least on my end) in about a week or so.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:55:55 -0800
Reply-To: Leon Tabory <letabor@cruzio.com>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
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He possibly refers to the notion that much of knowledge is about things t=
hat
are over with, not about the process of becoming we know not yet what.
Happy holidays everybody
leon
-----Original Message-----
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: "Counterculture"
RACE --- wrote:
>
> Ksenija Simic wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > And it isn=92t found in dusty books ...You might find it there, but=
it=92s
> > > in life ... it IS life, being in and out of existence at the same t=
ime
> > 'knowledge it truth that is dead, but not buried'
> >
> > e.e.cummings
>
> interesting line....have to think about that - doubt i'll agree with ol=
d
> e.e. on that one. seems to me it is alive but forgotten and the people
> forgetting are dead but not buried.
>
> thanks for the quote.
>
> david rhaesa
> salina, Kansas
i think that the knowledge he had in mind was the one you learn in
school and find in books and not the one you acquire yourself. it may
sound different out of the context, though.
ksenija
.-
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:00:12 EST
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From: Jjdorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: I am no memory babe
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wasn't it Ginsberg's "birdbrain"
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:56:05 -0600
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From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>
Subject: Re: downtime
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James Stauffer wrote:
>
> Dear Beatles
>
> Well Alex is gone for awhile but I am back after a hiatus caused by a hard
drive
> crash
> and lengthened by incompetent service but am back upgraded and ready to rock
and
> roll.
>
> Lost lots of work--so am reminding everyone like your mother would--BACK UP
> THOSE DAMN
> FILES.
ARGH!!!!!! Back-up files! How is this done????? Isn't it enough to
just turn off my computer when i leave for Phoenix????
> Hope everyone is having a beatific holiday season.
Kerouac Xmas coming along.....
opened first gifts last night from step-dad and mother -- RESULTS:
Town and the City, Big Sur, Maggie Cassady
on to Kansas City tomorrow for another round at step-mom and dad's then
in search of a white Xmas flying to brother's in Phoenix through the new
year......
i'm probably gonna suffer severe BEAT-L withdraw.
don't forget to sing all those Beat-Xmas-songs....
>
david rhaesa
salina,Kansas
heading east to Phoenix soon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:23:43 -0500
Reply-To: "henkel@wmich.edu" <henkel@wmich.edu>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Scott Henkel <henkel@WMICH.EDU>
Organization: OVPR
Subject: Beat influences
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Dear Beat-lers;
I picked up "Slow Learner" last night by Thomas Pynchon, and although I
have not yet been through the whole text, the introduction (written by the
author) has some very interesting tidbits about his Beat influences (he
did, after all go to Columbia in the 50's). I feel the need to warn first
time Pynchon readers (as Pynchon does himself in the intro) that this is
not a good representative of his work, but this collection is a few of his
first short stories, writing while he was in college. Read: good advice and
some key examples of the first writings of one of the best writers writing
now. Very enlightening for any burgeoning authors, myself included.
Goodwill in the holiday time to all,
Scott
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:51:19 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: downtime
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David
It's good to be back. Severe withdrawal. Being cut off from Beat-L for awhile
probably wouldn't hurt me, but I was doing some nice writing at the time and all
that is pretty much gone--plus which my handwriting is so excrable that I don't
try to work that way anymore--no more typewriter either--so I was a mute
vegatable
in front of generally boring tv. Except for Monday nights thrashing of Denver
by
the 49'rs, the return of Rice (brief tho it was) and the retirement of St Joe's
Jersey. And re watching Pulp Fiction--much of which is disgusting indeed--but
the
dance scene between Travolta and Uma inspired me for a night of techno dancing
at
Leon's daughter's birthday party.
Xmas in the retail trenches is leaving me mentally exhausted and with dead legs.
Sounds like a Jack Xmas for sure. You are one travelling fool these days. Good
for you. Isn't Phoenix west of the Rockies? Should be a wonderful place to be
this time of year. As for me--would like to get down to Tucson again and out to
the beatnick suburb of Oracle. For beatnik suburbs of Phoenix see
Sedonia--rather
a drive--but stunning country. Oak Creek Canyon is a knock-out and it makes a
nice pass through if you are going to that great example of soil conservation
failure and ignorance of contour plowing--the Grand Canyon.
Have a good one
James
RACE --- wrote:
> James Stauffer wrote:
> >
> > Dear Beatles
> >
> > Well Alex is gone for awhile but I am back after a hiatus caused by a hard
> drive
> > crash
> > and lengthened by incompetent service but am back upgraded and ready to rock
> and
> > roll.
> >
> > Lost lots of work--so am reminding everyone like your mother would--BACK UP
> > THOSE DAMN
> > FILES.
>
> ARGH!!!!!! Back-up files! How is this done????? Isn't it enough to
> just turn off my computer when i leave for Phoenix????
>
> > Hope everyone is having a beatific holiday season.
>
> Kerouac Xmas coming along.....
>
> opened first gifts last night from step-dad and mother -- RESULTS:
>
> Town and the City, Big Sur, Maggie Cassady
>
> on to Kansas City tomorrow for another round at step-mom and dad's then
> in search of a white Xmas flying to brother's in Phoenix through the new
> year......
>
> i'm probably gonna suffer severe BEAT-L withdraw.
>
> don't forget to sing all those Beat-Xmas-songs....
> >
> david rhaesa
> salina,Kansas
> heading east to Phoenix soon
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:07:09 -0500
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From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: i want to know...
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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:
>as it seems that you people know everything, i'm sure that you can fill
>me in on transcendentalists.
right?
<sigh> the work of the omnipotent omniscient folks here at beat-l is
never done... :) transcendentalists, yeah, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Hendry
David Thoreau... the first hippies some call them.. i don't think so..
an emphasized sense of perception, of asthetics, of beauty, of being
the all-seeing eye... "for we are children of the flame!" says
Emerson.. here's a little poem from Ralphie boy, just happen to have my
Norton Anthology in bed with me:
Brahma
If the red slayer thinks he slays,
Or if the slain think he is slain,
They know not well the subtle ways
I keep, and pass, and turn again.
Far or forgot to me is near;
Shadow and sunlight are the same;
The vanished gods to me appear;
And ne to me are shame and fame.
They reckon ill who leave me out;
When me they fly, I am the wings;
I am th doubter and the doubt,
And I the hymn the Brahmin sings.
The strong gods pine for my abode,
And pine in vain the sacred Seven,
But thou, meek lover of the good!
Find me, and turn thy back on heaven.
-Emerson
the Transcendentalists were strongly influenced by eastern
thought, Thoreau was a big fan of the Bhagavad-Gita... they were, you
know, very similar to the beats...
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:33:50 -0700
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From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: new kesey
Mime-Version: 1.0
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beat-l'ers
i just thought that i would let everyone know that the new fiction issue
of _the new yorker_ (dec 22,29 1997) has a shaort story by ken kesey
titled "skid-row santa". just a few pages long but with all this talk of
tom wolfe, etc i thought that some folks out there might like to see it.
yrs
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:13:08 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>
Subject: Re: I am no memory babe
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> NICO 88 wrote:
>
> can someone help me--
> in what essay, poem, interview, or sangha did Ginsberg say
>
> "Candor prevents paranoia" ???
The line is actually "Candor ends paranoia" and it's the last line of
the poem, "Cosmopolitan Greetings."
DC
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:17:32 EST
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From: Kirouack <Kirouack@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: great Christmas gifts
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for some great stockin' stuffers...
check out
http://members.aol.com/kirouack/index.html
for information concerning the books, please drop me a line
john j dorfner
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:20:03 -0500
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Walking on the sun
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Hippie chicks or hypocrites,
Might as well be walking on the sun.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:36:54 EST
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From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: the transcendentalists
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If you'e interested in transcendentalism, you must read the poem
openning "Nature." As Emerson would always begin his essays with poems, this
one "I become a Transparent Eyeball" at the openning of Nature had the most
profound impact on me of anything ive every read (along with Jane Eyre and
Ginsberg's essay on Kerouac's Buddhism.) i cant seem to find it on the net
(i'll type it up and send it to the list soon, because everyone should read
it); but here is a site with a good variety of Emerson's essays. worth
checking out.
ftp://ftp.books.com/ebooks/NonFiction/Philosophy/Emerson/history.txt
---Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:34:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Back tt the Future II
Just want to put in a good word for Philip Lamantia's new book, BED OF
SPHINXES, put out by City Lights. Highly recomended, run out and grab one.
Dave B.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:41:00 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: ARE YOU OUT THERE, MARIE COUNTRYMAN?????
Comments: cc: country@sover.net, bohemian@maelstrom.stjohns.edu
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MARIE, OH MARIE!!!!
By my calculations, you should be reaching california by now, and by my
clock it's approx. 10:30 pm there. I hope your trip there was exciting
yet free from stress.
I talked to jo, he says he's going to meet you on return trip, as will
I.
While you are in california, please go to the ocean and find me a shell.
I'll see you in chi-town in january.....
smile girl, you're in the land of the free and the brave...
don't eat too much seafood,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 03:17:44 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: I am no memory babe
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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ah, ooops :)
thanks, Diane!!!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:16:19 -0800
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: i want to know...
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> the Transcendentalists were strongly influenced by eastern
> thought, Thoreau was a big fan of the Bhagavad-Gita... they were, you
> know, very similar to the beats...
i suspected this...
thanks.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 20:19:08 +0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M.K." <mimosa@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: Your thoughts are much appreciated!
In-Reply-To: <199712190509.NAA05463@sophia.pacific.net.sg>
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Hello all,
thank you for your comments and explainations of
"counterculture." I hope that the all on the list can share me with how
Beat literature has affected your lives and goals, because I am trying to
write something about it, but my thoughts and ideas are all over the
place........
Thanks,
Melissa.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:49:14 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: i want to know...
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Similarities abound. But a lot less sex drugs and Charlie Parker
James
Ksenija Simic wrote:
> > the Transcendentalists were strongly influenced by eastern
> > thought, Thoreau was a big fan of the Bhagavad-Gita... they were, you
> > know, very similar to the beats...
>
> i suspected this...
>
> thanks.
>
> ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:13:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: Your thoughts are much appreciated!
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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:
> thank you for your comments and explainations of
>"counterculture." I hope that the all on the list can share me with how
>Beat literature has affected your lives and goals, because I am trying
>to
>write something about it, but my thoughts and ideas are all over the
>place........
life and goals... well, i've never wanted to do anything more than
write, even before i found the beats. but the beats have given me the
confidence to take the step against the normal career progression in
order to follow what makes me happy. they've reinforced and nurtured
my buddist/taoist leanings by aiding me in subduing my ambition and
realizing the simultaneous significance and insignificance of any
position in life, the being and non-being of existence, the romantic
thrill of life while remaining aware of its cosmic pointlessness...
enhancing my carefreeness and allowing me to be content in almost any
situation. except for lonliness, i think the beats, especially jack,
were painfully aware of it and though they may have held it at bay it
always loomed there, just like death always maintained a strong
presence in jack's life. which has always intrigued me, because
despite his buddhism and christianity he was never able to rid himself
of his fear of death.
i think the most common life-influence you'll find is that the
beats made it somewhat ok to break free from the normal lifestyle of
america, and proved to many young people that it is indeed possible to
feed their wanderlust and really live out their madness to live and
pursue kicks, which are the real beauty and happiness of life. to be
carefree and live for fun and experience and love of life without
becoming a slave to economy and material possession and degrees, and
corporate capitalist america, and still be able to survive without a
high-salary job and a house in the suburbs... that there are indeed
other alternatives, that you can exist in the american poltical system
without being a slave to its rules, to put life and living before
politics, economy, government, money, etc. that most men do "live
lives of quiet desparation" (thoreau) but that you have the power to
break that cycle and sing your song beautifully.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:19:00 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: Re: the transcendentalists
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BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:
> If you'e interested in transcendentalism, you must read the poem
>openning "Nature." As Emerson would always begin his essays with
>poems, this
>one "I become a Transparent Eyeball" at the openning of Nature had the
>most
>profound impact on me of anything ive every read
i'd second this as THE poem to read for an excellent intro feel
for what thoreau and emerson were doing way back when... it really
encompasses their doctrine. i think folks who haven't read it will
find a lot parallels to the beats in a late 1800's context.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:24:19 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: beat-influenced musicians
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thinking about the discussion we were having a while back about
musicians influenced by beats... just like to throw John Mellencamp's
name at y'all... someone who i've always considered very beat in his
life and even more so in his lyrics... would be interested to hear some
thoughts on this from other who've enjoyed his music..
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:35:24 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Tyson Ouellette <Tyson_Ouellette@UMIT.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine
Subject: address change & good tidings
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well, leaving school tonight for the holidays and to begin the
prep and money saving for the move to frisco... so i won't be using
this address anymore.. just thought i'd post to let folks know and
apologize for any personal mail that i may miss in the changeover and
not respond to... for now if anyone has something coming my way you can
send it on over to ursus@gwi.net and i should get it fine... sorry to
take up list space with this, but didn't want anyone to think that i
was ignoring them...
a very happy season to all of you and i wish you all a beautiful
time this year's end.
merry christmas, happy chanukah, shalom, winter equinox, chinese
new year, festivus (for you seinfeld fans) and see you all back here
within the next week or so. a short hiatus but i will miss it, y'all
are find standup folks and i thank every one of you for making this
list a kickass place to hang... cya soon.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:30:06 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Walking on the sun
In-Reply-To: <3499CBC3.5DF22782@scsn.net>
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Bentz wrote:
>Hippie chicks or hypocrites,
>Might as well be walking on the sun.
(1)
>
>--
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
(1)
&
leaftlets dipersed
on the road
the ink blended
with rain & brown leaves
in an autumn
fog
a lot of years ago
---
Rinaldo
19thDec97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:39:17 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: the poem which was written on the memorial card at Hank's funeral
service
In-Reply-To: <3499CBC3.5DF22782@scsn.net>
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but they've left us a bit of music
and a spiked show in the corner,
a jigger of scotch, a blue necktie,
a small volume of poems by rimbuaud,
a horse running as if the devil
were twisting his tail
over bluegrass and screaming,
and then,
love again
like a streetcar turning the corner
on time,
the city waiting,
the wine and the flowers,
the water walking across the lake
and summer and winter
and summer and summer
and winter again
--from the poem, " If We Take"
Written by Charles Bukowski
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:07:04 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: the transcendentalists
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Tyson Ouellette wrote:
>
> BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU,.Internet writes:
> > If you'e interested in transcendentalism, you must read the poem
> >openning "Nature." As Emerson would always begin his essays with
> >poems, this
> >one "I become a Transparent Eyeball" at the openning of Nature had the
> >most
> >profound impact on me of anything ive every read
>
would it be possible for someone to put that poem on the list? although
yugoslavia (where i live) is not as isolated as people tend to think,
some literature is not that easy to find.
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:29:32 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Your thoughts are much appreciated!
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M.K. wrote:
>
> Hello all,
> thank you for your comments and explainations of
> "counterculture." I hope that the all on the list can share me with how
> Beat literature has affected your lives and goals, because I am trying to
> write something about it, but my thoughts and ideas are all over the
> place........
>
> Thanks,
> Melissa.
thanks for asking...
i guess that if all those things hadn't already been in me, i could
never have been influenced by the beat literature. but it gave me the
permission to believe that it IS possible to live outside 'the
mainstream'. for me america will always be the one i read about in their
works, never the one i heard and read about. even when i was there i
looked at it in the same way.
also, now i know that life can never be boring. reading kerouac in my
bed, after midnight, while listening to tom waits is now an adventure.
because i know that it is not what you do but how you experience it. and
when i learned this, and stoped trying so hard, my life actually did get
much better.
i admit the need to identify, to idolize...yes, i do have the gap ad
hanging iin my room, right next to the photograph of the jack kerouac
alley sign i took whwn i was in san francisco. but, i figure, if i
already need to have an idol, it might as well be him - i think that he
actually makes me a better person.
and, finally, had it not been for beat literature, i would never
experience the fun of reading all the wonderful posts on this list. :)
ksenija.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:53:03 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Daughters of the Buddha
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I was enjoyed reading this article and I thought some people here would also
like it. It's from a magazine called Sinorama. I put a link at the bottom
for the web site of one of the organizations mentioned.
And here as well: Buddhist Compassion Relief Tzu-Chi Foundation
http://www.tzuchi.org/
I have wanted to make a post or contribute to the conversation that took
place a while ago on "American Buddhism", but haven't got around to it nor
gathered my thoughts well enough. On Halloween we went to a fair in
Monrovia CA at the Tzu Chi compasion center there. That's in the US and
what I wanted to say is this is American Buddhism. This particular article
is about Taiwan but it is the flavor of the emerging American Buddhism as well.
So Merry Christmas and God Bless us everyone.
______________
Daughters of the Buddha
http://www.ROC-Taiwan.org/info/sinorama/en/8612/612082e1.html
In Buddhism, where it is men who are traditionally those who follow the path
of the ascetic, women who follow the ascetic's path often find their way
strewn with thorns. However, among Taiwan's more than30,000 Buddhist monks
and nuns, it is monks who are in the minority with female ascetics
outnumbering their male counterparts by a three to one ratio. Not only in
their numbers, but also in their achievements, these women are at least the
equal of men. Nuns such as Dharma Master Cheng Yan, who is devoted to
charitable work; Ven. Hsiao Yun, who was the first Buddhist to establish an
accredited university; Sakya Chao Fei, who has taken to the streets in
support of animal rights; Ven. Heng Ching Shih, who holds a PhD and teaches
at National Taiwan University; and Ven. Wu Yin, who founded the Luminary
International Buddhist Society (LIBS) all play important roles in Buddhist
society.
For this reason, many women who have chosen the path of the ascetic but have
not received recognition or been given room to develop in their own
countries have come to Taiwan to study and be ordained by Taiwan's Buddhist
orders. The exceptional situation of Taiwan's Buddhist nuns is something
never before seen in the Buddhist world. What is it that has made Taiwan
"Kuanyin's nunnery," a place where such a very large proportion of women
have come to follow the ascetic's path?
In March of 1997, on the first day of his visit to Taiwan, the Dalai Lama,
the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism, said that he hoped to come to
understand the heritage and status of Buddhist nuns in Taiwan and the
regulations pertaining to them. In November, the Dalai Lama's special
envoy-the Tashi Tsering Lama, who is the Assistant Secretary of the Tibetan
government-in-exile's Cultural Research Department-arrived in Taiwan from
India. In Taiwan he attended the Conference on Female Sangha in Chinese and
Tibetan Buddhism. The Tashi Tsering Lama hoped to apply the "Taiwan
Experience" to begin the establishment of an organization for Tibetan
Buddhist nuns.
Enthusiastic debate was carried on in a mixture of Mandarin Chinese and
Tibetan first at the site of the convention and then in a restaurant. The
next day, discussion was continued in a tea house. On the table in the tea
house Buddhist classics such as the Vinayana of the Four Categories lay open
while the Ven. Heng Ching Shih, one off the organizers of the conference,
and two of the participants, Sakya Chao Fei, a director of the Life
Conservationist Association of the ROC and the Tashi Lama, spent the
afternoon comparing texts. "If the Dalai Lama could build a system for
Tibetan bhiksuni in his lifetime, it would be no less of an accomplishment
than achieving independence for Tibet," feels Sakya Chao Fei.
A men's Shangri-La
Buddhism originated in India and later divided into three strands: One
traveled south to southern India, Sri Lanka, Burma and Thailand where it
became Theravadin Buddhism; another strand went northward to Tibet, Nepal
and Bhutan where it became Tibetan Buddhism; that strand which ventured
northeast to China, and thence to Japan, Korea and Taiwan became Chinese
Buddhism .
To most people in Taiwan, women who leave their home to follow the path of
the Buddhist ascetic are known as nigu, or nuns. These nuns are divided into
two kinds, sramanerika and bhiksuni. After entering on this path and taking
their novices' vows, women become sramanerika, novices who might be said to
have "observer status" in the Buddhist world. After about two years of
study, novices may undergo full ordination. At this ceremony, the skin at
the front of their scalps is burned, leaving small circular scars. (It is
only Chinese Buddhism which has this scalp-burning rite.) When the ceremony
is complete, they are bhiksuni, initiates who at last have the right to
participate in Buddhist ceremonies, take disciples, hold the position of
abbess, vote on Buddhist affairs, continue with their education and
proselytize their faith.
At the Sino-Tibetan Buddhist conference, there sat two Western women wearing
the red cassocks of Tibetan Buddhism, quietly listening to the debate. The
two were Australian disciples of the Dalai Lama, Ven. Hsin Hai and Ven. Hsin
Ming. However, because Tibetan Buddhism has no system for bhiksuni, they
have only been ordained as sramanerika, remaining, still, Buddhist
"apprentices."
In the Eighth Century, both Indian Buddhism and Chinese Buddhism existed in
Tibet. However, in the Ninth Century, after a conference between these two
different Buddhisms failed to resolve their differences, the Chinese monks
left Tibet.
With the introduction of Buddhism into Tibet, why wasn't the system for
female initiates also introduced? The Tashi Lama says, "The road was very
long." The ordination ceremonies for males novices, bhiksu and sramanerika
require at least 10 experienced initiates who have been ordained for at
least 10 years to preside. The ordination ceremony for bhiksuni, on the
other hand, requires a two level ordination. What this means is that in
addition to the 10 male initiates, there must be 10 or 12 experienced
bhiksuni (bhiksuni who have at least 12years of experience) presiding. There
have never been enough experienced foreign bhiksuni in Tibet to start a
bhiksuni system in Tibet. In the same way, Theravadin Buddhism, which at one
time was able to ordain bhiksuni, lost its ability to do so when there was a
break in the system. Since that time, there have never been the 10bhiksuni
necessary to restart the system.
Coming to Taiwan to learn
The Tashi Lama's answer is not a very convincing one to Buddhist nuns,
however. The reason is that China is even further from India than is Tibet
and yet was able to overcome this problem. It seems that the reason that
there are no bhiksuni in Tibet may lie more in the standing of women in
Tibetan society.
In Tibet proper, very few women who become nuns dare to fight for their
rights. When the Dalai Lama fled overseas and Tibetan Buddhism began to
accept women from all over the world into its ranks, however, Western women,
possessed of a "feminine self-awareness," began to wonder why Buddhist
doctrine favored men. They wondered why Tibetan Buddhism had only male
initiates and no female initiates. These have become questions that Tibetan
Buddhism must address whether it would like to or not.
Faced with the questions of Western nuns, 12 years ago the Dalai Lama
established a committee focused exclusively on the task of creating
bhiksuni. Unfortunately, the committee's efforts have been obstructed by
traditionalists and it has yet to produce a proposal. For this reason Ven.
Hsin Hai and Ven. Hsin Ming came to Taiwan to be ordained in 1982 at the
direction of the Dalai Lama.
In fact, Ven. Hsin Hai and Ven. Hsin Ming are not the only nuns who have
come to Taiwan from distant lands to be ordained. At the Buddhist college
administered by the headquarters of Kaohsiung's Fo Kuang Shan Temple, there
have always been a number of women who have come from India, Nepal, Sri
Lanka, Vietnam and Thailand to study Buddhism and realize their long-held
ambition to be fully ordained. Taiwan has become the most popular place in
the world for Theravadin Buddhist and Tibetan Buddhist nuns to come and
receive teaching.
Taiwan is Kuanyin's nunnery
Looking at the numbers of Buddhists ordained in Taiwan over the years, since
1953, when the first ordination ceremony in Taiwan was held, in every year
but one, the number of women ordained has far exceeded the number of men.
The one year in which the number of men surpassed the number of women was in
a year in which a large number of men were released from the military and
chose to become monks. Even at Ven. Hsing Yun's Fo Kuang Shan Temple and
Master Sheng Yan's Fa Ku Shan Temple, nearly all of the assistants under the
temple directors and heads of the two sects are women. This is especially
true of the huge Fo Kuang Shan organization wherein the heads of all five
councils are female bhiksuni. Homemaker Mai Shu-ying, who has been attending
Buddhist camps and following Buddhist dietary practices for 10 years, says
that based on her observations, women always make up more than 80% of the
attendees at such activities.
It is therefore not strange that the Ven. Ching Hsin, a director of the
Chinese Buddhist Studies Association, would state, "The future of Taiwan's
Buddhism belongs to the nuns.
Small burdens, easily set aside
What is it that makes so many more women than men in Taiwan become ascetics?
Kung Peng-cheng, President of Fo Kuang University, says, "There are more
female Buddhists than male so naturally the pool from which potential nuns
are drawn is larger than the pool from which monks are drawn. It's just that
Buddhism generally rejects women. Not only are they subject to more rules as
an ascetic, the regulations concerning their return to secular life are
stricter than those for men." There are some Buddhist sects that allow a man
to move from a secular to a monastic life and back again as many as seven
times, whereas if a woman once re-embarks upon the secular path, she may not
again become a nun.
Besides the greater number of female Buddhists, many bhiksuni have noted
that women have a more emotional disposition and are thus more easily drawn
to becoming ascetics if they encounter difficulties in their lives. "I think
the idea that women have a lot of bad karma comes from the fact that the
physical and mental suffering they undergo and the difficulties they face in
their lives are greater than those of men," says the Ven. Kuan Chien, a
scholar of Buddhist architecture.
"The inequality of the sexes actually encourages women to become ascetics,"
says Kung, giving voice to a paradoxical view of the situation. He explains
that in most societies there are few expectations that women "succeed" or
achieve great things in their careers. After getting married and having
children, they devote themselves to their families. These women have less
space to develop themselves than modern nuns, who have the opportunity to
improve themselves and serve others.
In contrast, society has greater expectations of men that they fight to get
ahead in their careers and support their families. In becoming an ascetic,
the familial and personal obstacles they face are difficult to overcome.
"Even if they hope to become monks while they are still in school, once they
complete their military service, they give up the idea," says Ven. Ming
Chia, head of the Luminary Temple.
Not just a refuge for the disappointed
If the phenomena of nuns in Taiwan were simply a matter of numbers, then it
wouldn't attract so much attention from the Buddhist community. "Today it is
not just a case of outstanding individuals, but of an outstanding system,"
says Sakya Chao Fei.
Chiang Tsan-teng, who has studied the development of Buddhism in Taiwan for
many years, feels that the ability of Taiwan's bhiksuni to handle major
tasks on their own has emerged in the last 20 years. He feels that there are
three reasons for the modern female Buddhist's break with the past. First,
levels of education are higher. Second, social values have become more
liberal. Third, the ability of nuns to support themselves financially has
improved.
Certainly from the perspective of educational background, today's nuns are
different from their predecessors.
In the Qing dynasty there was a folk song whose words were to the effect
that out of every 10 nuns, nine were former prostitutes and the tenth was
mad. The 40-something Ven. Ming Chia remembers, "When I became a nun in the
1970s, people thought that becoming a nun was something for grandmothers and
women who couldn't support themselves, widows and abandoned wives. My father
thought it a huge loss of face that I wanted to be a nun and slapped me. I
had to run away from home to do it."
"Everybody has their own reasons for taking this path. The bark of mercy
carries all. Taking care of these fragile, disappointed people is something
that we must do. But most of the more than 1000 nuns currently at Fo Kuang
Shan are virgins; not one of them became a nun because of problems with a
relationship or marital frustrations, "says Ven. Tse Hui, head of the
Domestic Supervisory Council, the most powerful council at Fo Kuang Shan.
At Fo Kuang Shan, there are also many entire families who made a joyful
decision to become ascetics together. For example, there is the 50-something
year old Ven. Tien Ching and her four daughters who came to Fo Kuang Shan
one after another. "Today's nuns come to Buddhism full of ideals and
enthusiasm. They themselves are highly independent and they haven't been
pushed to become nuns by some unpleasant events in their external lives,"
feels Ven. Wu Yin.
People usually think of becoming an ascetic as a negative means of escaping
from life's responsibilities. However, a huge majority of nuns explicitly
state that they have not become nuns to escape a disappointment in love or a
bad marriage. They are very clear in expressing that they wanted to follow a
different path in life, a path they had dreamed about following.
Ven. Tse Kuan, a member of the LIBS, says that from the time she was young,
she had the feeling that life was an ever changing illusion. Although her
elder brothers and sisters were happily married, she always asked herself if
the devotion of her whole life to a husband and children was the only path
available to a woman. The answer came to her when she encountered Buddhism.
At the same time, another question was answered. She explains that when you
become an ascetic, you do not cut all your family ties. For example, if a
good friend is getting married or a parent is sick, you can go home to
visit. "Becoming an ascetic is like getting married; it just means going to
live with a different family," she quips.
The right moment
Ven. Kuan Chien, who was originally an outstanding architect, feels that her
becoming a nun was fated in a previous life. In an old picture belonging to
her family, she discovered that her father, the recently deceased Taiwanese
master sculptor Yang Ying-feng, was carving a large Buddha figure at the
time her mother was pregnant with her. From high school onwards, she was
possessed by the dream of becoming a Buddhist nun, but she wished to become
one when she was in the best of situations. So it was that she first
completed her studies and then worked for two years before very contentedly
becoming a nun.
Now most female ascetics have a high school or college education and there's
nothing astounding about a nun with a master's degree or Ph.D. Of the nuns
of the LIBS, a group whose primary goal is the education of female religious
teachers, 80% have a college degree and many even have a master's degree or
PhD. At Fo Kuang Shan, many of those nuns who have a graduate degree
actually had their education overseas paid for by the temple.
Even though an ascetic's status is independent of his or her educational
background, the enthusiasm of individuals and the support of the Buddhist
societies have not only improved the talents of the nuns, but have also been
gradually reflected in the Buddhist community as whole.
No more "men first"
In the past, Buddhism had its "above, before and center principles" which
stated that regardless of educational level, men's status was above that of
women; when walking, men walked before women; and when being photographed,
men stood in the center. However, not long ago the Sakya Chao Fei attended a
feast. Although most of those seated at the front were very senior monks,
the organizer had also kept a front row seat for her.
"With the liberalization of society, female Buddhists no longer need to play
a secondary role," says Chiang.
"If a society represses women, then even women who take the Buddhist path
will be repressed by patriarchal authority. In the same way, when a society
has such a great number of outstanding women, a great number of outstanding
bhiksuni will also appear. This reasoning explains why in the Chinese
Buddhism seen in Japan and Korea, nuns do not have the status that they do
in Taiwan." Sakya Chao Fei also affirms that in the last few years the
liberalization of society has provided more space for Taiwan's bhiksuni to
develop.
Taught by the times
Generally speaking, Taiwan's Buddhism has no rigid structure. It only
requires that a few people get together to form a new Buddhist society.
"Someone has said Taiwan's Buddhism is like a plateful of loose sand. The
fact that it is as free as loose sand, I think, has allowed both male and
female ascetics to have the room to develop their own abilities in their own
ways," says Sakya Chao Fei.
"The traditional Buddhist rules of conduct most definitely include rules
that discriminate against women, but they are not very strictly enforced in
Taiwan. You could say that the system places constraints on bhiksuni, but in
practice, they have a lot of freedom," says Ven. Heng Ching Shih.
Why is it that Taiwan's Buddhism doesn't seem to be very concerned about
these inequalities in the rules of conduct for men and women? In Chiang's
opinion, to understand this you have to look back at the particular
characteristics of Buddhism in Taiwan around the time of its retrocession
from Japan to China.
Before retrocession, Buddhism in Taiwan consisted of Japanese style Buddhism
wherein ascetics can eat meat and marry, or a kind of mixed form which
allowed ascetics to keep their hair but required that they follow a
vegetarian diet. After the mainland fell to the communists, the Chinese
Buddhist Association and a few ascetics came with the Nationalists to
Taiwan. After they began to ordain local Buddhists, they began to change
Taiwan's Fujianese-Japanese style of Buddhism.
Invaluable assistants
At that time, the power of those varieties of Buddhism present in Taiwan was
waning. The bhiksu who began to proselytize and guide the development of the
Chinese Buddhist Association of Taiwan were mostly from the mainland.
Because they were few in number, had limited resources and spoke a different
language, they naturally depended on local monks and nuns for assistance.
The large number of potential nuns and female believers also became
invaluable assistants to the bhiksu in proselytizing Buddhism.
An example is the Ven. Tzu Hang, a mainland monk with a great number of
disciples. In 1949, when the Nationalist government had just arrived in
Taiwan, he was arrested on suspicion of being a communist spy. At the
appropriate time, Ven. Hsuen Kuang, Ven. Ta Hsin, Ven. Hsiu Kuan and Ven.
Tzu Guan traveled all over the island to help him. When he was released from
prison, he joined his 10-odd mainland monks, and at the invitation of Ven.
Ta Hsin and Ven. Hsuen Kuang, both abbesses, they settled down in the Ching
Hsiu Yuan which was originally a nunnery.
In the past, Buddhism kept men and women strictly separate. Not only were
men relegated to their monasteries and women to their nunneries, male and
female ascetics were not even allowed to be alone together under a tree or
on a boat. For this reason, if a bhiksu were to make a trip to another
place, he had to conscientiously avoid visiting nunneries. These traditional
regulations have not, however, been strictly enforced in Taiwan, as the
above example makes clear.
In order to encourage more women to become nuns, it was naturally also
necessary to raise their status and give them more room to develop
themselves. For example, many years ago, Ven. Hsing Yun lived in Ilan and
attracted a number of female high-school graduates as disciples. Today,
several of these disciples, such as Ven. Tzu Hui, Ven. Tzu Chuang and Ven.
Tzu Jung all manage important councils within Fo Kuang Shan. Fo Kuang Shan
has established its own sort of "Buddhist system" in which nuns are no
longer required, as in traditional Buddhism, to bow to monks regardless of
their own seniority.
Nuns take the stage
"Today, with the help of bhiksu, the status of Buddhist women has improved
to the point were it is more or less equivalent to that of men," says Kung.
"In Taiwan, bhiksuni have room to develop and make a contribution. We really
must thank the Buddhist elders for their willingness to give bhiksuni this
opportunity," says Ven. Wu Yin.
The effect of this situation has been that ascetic organizations that are at
least nominally run by monks are filled with women in important positions.
Chiang states very directly: "Today's Buddhist organizations are run by
women. If the bhiksuni were to go on strike, Buddhism in Taiwan would face
an immediate collapse."
Looking back at the development of Buddhism in Taiwan, even in its
"vegetarian stage" there were several times more women than men. After
retrocession, with the painstaking aid off the mainland bhiksu, female
ascetics became Buddhism's army. And with the social liberalization of the
last 20years, it is women who are handling major tasks and holding
leadership positions.
At a recent demonstration against the fourth nuclear power plant, Sakya Chao
Fei, who is more typically seen demonstrating for animal rights, marched
through the streets from dawn to dusk with anti-nuclear activists
LinYi-hsiung and Lin Shuang-pu, wearing her cassock and broad-brimmed
farmer's hat. In the past, Sakya Chao Fei has also protested against
snag-fishing, catching and killing spring chickens as sport, and a circus
performance-in this last case, holding a public hearing at which she decried
the cruel use of animals for entertainment by the circus's organizers.
Responding to cruelty
The 85 year-old Ven. Hsiao Yun excels at both painting and the writing of
poetry and studied with the Lingnan painter, Kao Chien-fu. In her youth, she
was a teacher in Hong Kong and Guangdong. In 1967, she was asked to teach
Buddhist art at Chinese Culture University, becoming the first Buddhist
ascetic to hold the position of university professor. In her life, Ven.
Hsiao Yun has stuck to three principles: not building her own temple; being
selective about the disciples she accepts; and not becoming an abbess. Her
whole life and energy have been devoted to education. When the Ministry of
Education (MOE) allowed private individuals to establish MOE-accredited
schools in 1987, she founded the Huafan Institute of Technology (now Huafan
University),becoming the first Buddhist in the 2000 years of Chinese
Buddhism to establish an MOE-recognized school.
The several million member strong Buddhist Compassion Relief Tzu Chi
Foundation is led by Dharma Master Cheng Yen. The foundation was established
in 1966 at a time when Taiwan's economy was not yet developed and most
charity work on the island was done by foreign churches.
At that time, Dharma Master Cheng Yen witnessed a hospital refuse care for a
pregnant aboriginal woman because the woman didn't have money to pay a
deposit. The woman's blood covered the floor. It was then that the dream of
founding a hospital in the Hualien-Taitung area took root in her heart. Her
hospital would not demand the payment of such deposits before treatment.
However, it wasn't until 1979 when both society and the foundation had more
developed financial resources that she formally sent out her holy appeal for
aid in realizing this dream. It was an appeal which moved all segments of
society. Six years ago, Dharma Master Cheng Yen was awarded the Ramon
Magasaysay Award, the Asian equivalent of the Nobel Peace Prize. Today, the
esteem in which she is held by society is second to no monk.
The comfort of the holy mother
The Tzu Chi Foundation has some four million members of whom almost 7000
participate in its activities. Of these 7000, most are qipao-wearing female
disciples. "Women have a gentleness that is especially comforting to those
who are undergoing some difficulty," says Sakya Chao Fei. Kung also feels
that female religious teachers have a way of putting things in terms that
female believers can understand.
Chen Hsiu-mei, a member of the Tzu Chi Foundation, remembers a time when she
attended a conference on donations of corpses at the Hualien Medical
College. When she was preparing to ride away on a motorcycle after the
conference, Dharma Master Cheng-yen quickly rolled down the window of the
car in which she was sitting, saying softly to Chen, "Be sure to put on your
helmet and be careful when you ride, okay?" Chen says that she felt "like a
baby receiving warmth from its mother."
The monotheistic Catholics originally believed in only one god, a male one.
Later, however, the Holy Mother Mary gradually became an object of worship.
In China, the originally bearded Bodhisattva Kuanyin was also gradually
transformed into a motherly figure. Nearly every race has an earth mother
which it worships. The existence of goddesses and female religious teachers
satisfies an ancient human need for mothering.
Individual vs. collective action
In the past in the mainland, monastic organizations such as those at the
Shaolin and Tiantongyuan temples typically pulled together 500 or 1000
individual monks. In today's Taiwan, however, with the exception of the300
or so bhiksu at Fo Kuang Shan, there are almost no large groups of monks.
Monks, regardless of the monastic organization to which they belong, tend to
roam and to live alone. Women, on the other hand, tend to live together in
groups as in the cases of the 70-odd nuns at Chiayi County's Luminary
Temple, the more than100 nuns at the Lunghu Nunnery in Kaohsiung's Ah-lien
village, and the more than 1000 bhiksuni at Fo Kuang Shan. Living together
like this, these nuns can devote themselves to tasks requiring many hands
such as social welfare or consolidating scriptural research.
The Ven. Wu Yin feels that such living arrangements are related to the
female character. Women feel more comfortable being a cog in the machine;
they are willing to make sacrifices behind the scenes to aid a leader and
have less interest than bhiksu in titles such as abbot/abbess or director of
the Supervisory Council.
It's certainly true that a name list of those holding high positions in the
Chinese Buddhist Association would be dominated by senior bhiksu. And at Fo
Kuang Shan, even though the heads of its five councils are all women, it is
always a bhiksu who is elected to be the head of the sect. The Ven. Tzu Hui,
head of the Domestic Supervisory Council at Fo Kuang Shan, feels that the
women at Fo Kuang Shan don't like to stand out and that it is very likely
the next several heads of the sect that are elected will be bhiksu.
A cradle for religious teachers
With monastic organizations fading from the scene, Chiang predicts that in
the future it will be more difficult to produce famous paternalistic bhiksu
like the Ven. Hsing Yun, the Ven. Sheng Yan and the Ven. Wei Chuei. Bhiksuni
are also changing their focus with their support of other nuns instead of
monks making them stronger still. An example of this is the LIBS in which it
is not individuals but the excellence of the entire organization that
attracts attention.
The Ven. Wu Yin, founder of the LIBS, says that in Buddhism there used to be
the idea that, "If the three excesses are not excised, Buddhism will not
flourish." These so called "three excesses" were unrestrained and
indiscriminate tonsuring of disciples, indiscriminate ordination and
indiscriminate proselytization. In Taiwan, the age at which one may become
an ascetic and the observation period are not subject to any rules. But at
the Luminary Nunnery, those women with a desire to become nuns must first
pass through a six month period as untonsured novices. They then undergo a
three to six month evaluation by the organization before they are allowed to
become ascetics.
After becoming ascetics, they enter the training stage and study Buddhism
for two years. Once accredited by the organization, they finally undergo
full ordination and become bhiksuni. They then must study for another five
years at a Buddhist college. It is such careful training that produces
female religious teachers with the ability to discuss scripture and spread
Buddhism.
Buddhism comes full circle
At Fo Kuang Shan's Buddhist college, there are many nuns who come from lands
in which Theravadin Buddhismor Tibetan Buddhism are the prevalent forms.
Some of these have been ordained as sramanerika, others are tonsured, but
are not yet even sramanerika. The 29-year old Ven. Penjih from Sri Lanka has
been ordained as a bhiksuni in Taiwan. She had been a nun for ten years
before she discovered that women could undergo full ordination and become
abbesses who can accept disciples. The Ven. Jutao, who also underwent full
ordination in Taiwan, is from India. She says happily, "After being
ordained, you are a real ascetic. I am very happy that I will be able to go
back to India and spread Buddhist teachings."
With its fully developed and vigorous bhiksuni system, Taiwan has gained the
strength to send help overseas. Next year, Fo Kuang Shan will hold an
ordination ceremony in India to help the local Buddhist societies
reestablish their own bhiksuni ordination. The Dalai Lama has also invited
the world's Buddhist nations to put on a Thera-vadin Buddhism monastic
conference to discuss the problem of maintenance of a bhiksuni system.
Because Tibetan Buddhism doesn't have a bhiksuni tradition, the Tibetan
equivalent to sramanerika do not have the right to speak at the conference.
Therefore the Dalai Lama has also invited 15 to 20 bhiksuni from Taiwan to
attend the conference and debate with the monks from other nations.
In the fifth century, the bhiksuni of Sri Lanka were very active, even
traveling as far as China to help the Chinese Buddhists establish bhiksuni
ordination. Now in India, the birthplace of Buddhism, the bhiksuni
ordination no longer exists. In the last few years, Korean bhiksuni have
traveled to Sri Lanka to help the Sri Lankans reestablish bhiksuni
ordination. Those who were once the masters must now study under their
former students to relearn what they have forgotten. Buddhism has come full
circle.
(Tsai Wen-ting/photos by Pu Hwa-chih/ tr. by Scott Williams)
Buddhist Compassion Relief Tzu-Chi Foundation http://www.tzuchi.org/
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:30:44 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: diamond sutra
Mime-Version: 1.0
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beat-lers
i was wondering - esp cponcerning how often kerouac made reference to it-
does anyone know where i could find a copy of the diamond sutra? does any
one have an extra copy they would trade? help?!
thanks ya'll
yrs
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:05:55 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: diamond sutra
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 02:30 PM 12/19/97 -0700, you wrote:
>beat-lers
>i was wondering - esp cponcerning how often kerouac made reference to it-
>does anyone know where i could find a copy of the diamond sutra? does any
>one have an extra copy they would trade? help?!
>thanks ya'll
>yrs
>derek
>
I can get you a really cool looking copy in hardbound form where the pages
are all folded up as one long page that kind of scrolls out. (It has no
spine). The title on the top cover is in really cool lettering and is
ringed-boxed with swastikas (Dharma symbols actually).
One thing though, it is in Chinese.
In terms of that in Some of the Dharma (I forget what page) Kerouac has
written (by hand of course) the Chinese characters for the Diamond Sutra.
He did a good enough job where they could be read. I saw them and looked
them up in my chinese dictionary without knowing it was the same book I
mentioned above that my wife has. Then I noticed.
I thought that was cool or kewl as the kids say.
In terms of English I say try www.amazon.com or www.barnesandnoble.com
>******************************************************************
>Derek Beaulieu
>House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
>#502-728 3rd Ave NW
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
>ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
>"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
>******************************************************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:24:52 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Your thoughts are much appreciated!
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-19 12:23:20 EST, you write:
> death always maintained a strong
> presence in jack's life. which has always intrigued me, because
> despite his buddhism and christianity he was never able to rid himself
> of his fear of death.
actually, as for as this fear of death, Ginsberg speculated that its virulent
persistence was what finally took him back to christianity: He could not let
go of this fear, and buddhism provided no easy answer to the question, thus,
in the blind hope of "salvation" he looked back to catholicism to give him
more security in the concept and nature of his death.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:26:13 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Was Tim an Agent & Countryman's Chi stop
Content-Type: text/plain
jo: i fully understand. the stopover in chi-town was shortnend, it was a
mess, but a very nice woman took care of me and all is well. so sorry to
hear of what prevented you. looking forward to a beat reunion even just
at station. they have bars and food and stuff. knocked me out - our
station seats 8 in a pinch
happy holidays
see you (i hope i hope i hope in the new year's return.
marie
>Return-Path: <owner-beat-l@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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>Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:34:07 -0500
>Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
>Subject: Re: Was Tim an Agent & Countryman's Chi stop
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971215175102.00b8e5a4@pop.gpnet.it>
>X-UIDL: 6cbb2a067ab17fd37b5261be2a8f78bb
>Status: U
>
>>jo wrote:
>>>I seem to have have missed something.
>>>
>>>What link is working on such things as "orange sunsihe destroy[ed]
the
>>>liberal movement...?"
>>>
>>>I really want to archive this thread.
>>>
>>>j grant
>>>
>>> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
>>> Details on-line at
>>> http://www.bookzen.com
>>> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>>>
>>jo, it's me rinaldo, i think it's a serious topic the luck of
>>leftism in the western countries. i was in the 60s & 70s a
>>new leftist activist. i'm perhaps in a dark-esque stage of
>>life but it's discouraging matter to realize i/(we) was/(were)
>>manipulated by marionnettistes. it elapsed circa 30year ago but...
>>democracy is the background to a beat way of life. let imagine
>>a world where won the nazism and tell us what it would happened?
>
>I have to backpeddle and figure this out. I'm missing something. Acid,
>particluarly Orange Sunshine, looking back almost 30 years, had a
powerful
>influence on me. Positive all the way. I miss it. Back then, and I feel
the
>same way today but the political climate is such that I set aside the
>desires to seek, I enjoyed a serious trip every year or so. Cleared the
>cobwebs, opened my eyes, marvelled at the beauty, the unseen....
>
>I smile to myself picturing the knowing smiles on the list.
>
>If I had it to do all over again I'd probably be in a lab with a Ph.D.
in
>organic chemistry or pharmacology devoting myself to research.
>
>Hmmm
>
>j grant
>
>**
>
>Note to Marie Countryman.
>
>By the time you get this you'll have been met by a freind of mine. I
have
>no doubt that your brief layover will be one you'll remember. Jerry
(and
>possibly Arthur will join him) are two that are one-of-a-kind.
>
>I ended up with a sick neighbor child and a delayed aniversary dinner I
had
>committed to preparing and tonight HAD to be the night.
>
>See you on your return.
>
>jo
>
>
> HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
> Details on-line at
> http://www.bookzen.com
> 625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:42:59 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: diamond sutra
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:30 PM 12/19/97 -0700, you wrote:
>beat-lers
>i was wondering - esp cponcerning how often kerouac made reference to it-
>does anyone know where i could find a copy of the diamond sutra? does any
>one have an extra copy they would trade? help?!
>thanks ya'll
>yrs
>derek
>
Here are some web sites
http://www.sqshb.se/pellex/tibet/diamond.htm
This one is not completed but has up to section 12
http://www.tbsn.org/english/stframe.htm
This page from the True Buddha School Net (my Mother-in-laws's denomination)
let's you download the Diamond Sutra as an envoy file. I happen to have the
Word Perfect Suite on my computer so it worked for me. I don't know what
you need to have or if it is standalone but I think it is stand alone.)
http://tunglinkok.ca/master/current/diamond.htm
This one has the text and commentary.
http://www.child.demon.co.uk/wcf/diamondsutra.html
This one is good it has the whole thing in one place (ie one page) and has
links to others (different translations etc...)
>******************************************************************
>Derek Beaulieu
>House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
>#502-728 3rd Ave NW
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
>ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
>"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
>******************************************************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:44:40 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Diamond sutra here it is
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 02:30 PM 12/19/97 -0700, you wrote:
>beat-lers
>i was wondering - esp cponcerning how often kerouac made reference to it-
>does anyone know where i could find a copy of the diamond sutra? does any
>one have an extra copy they would trade? help?!
>thanks ya'll
>yrs
>derek
>
Here it is: from http://www.child.demon.co.uk/wcf/diamondsutra.html
____________________
The Diamond Sutra
There are various translations of The Diamond Sutra and I here present one
translation, which I found posted on Usenet, and
then links to several others.
DIAMOND SUTRA
1. Thus have I heard.
At one time the Buddha stayed at Anathapindaka's Garden in the grove of jeta
in the kingdom of Sravasti; he was together
with 1,250 great Bhikshus. When the meal time came the World-honoured One
put on his cloak and, holding his bowl,
entered the great city of Sravasti, where he begged for food. Having
finished his begging from door to door, he came back to
his own place, and took his meal. When this was done, he put away his cloak
and bowl, washed his feet, spread his feet, and
sat down.
2. Then the Venerable Subhuti, who was among the assembly, rose from his
seat, bared his right shoulder, set his right knee on
the ground, and, respectfully folding his hands, addressed the Buddha thus:
"It is wonderful, World-honoured One, that the Tathagata thinks so much of
all the Bodhisattvas, and so instructs them so well.
World-honoured One, in case good men and good women ever raise the desire
for the Supreme Enlightenment, how would
they abide in it? How would they keep their thoughts under control?"
The Buddha said: "Well said, indeed, O Subhuti! As you say, the Tathagata
thinks very much of all the Bodhisattvas, and so
instructs them well. But now listen attentively and I will tell you. In case
good men and good women raise the desire for the
Supreme Enlightenment, they should thus abide in it, they should thus keep
their thoughts under control."
"So be it, World-honoured One, I wish to listen to you."
3. The Buddha said to Subhuti:
"All the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas should thus keep their thoughts under
control. All kinds of beings such as the egg-born, the
womb-born, the moisture born, the miraculously-born, those with form, those
without form, those with consciousness, those
without consciousness, those with no-consciousness and those without
no-consciousness - they are all led by me to enter
Nirvana that leaves nothing behind and to attain final emancipation. Though
thus beings immeasurable, innumerable, and
unlimited are emancipated, there are in reality no beings that are ever
emancipated. Why, Subhuti? If a Bodhisattva retains the
thought of an ego, a person, a being, or a soul, he is no more a Bodhisattva.
4. "Again, Subhuti, when a Bodhisattva practices charity he should not be
cherishing any idea, that is to say, he is not to cherish
the idea of a form when practising charity, nor is he to cherish the idea of
a sound, an odour, a touch, or a quality. Subhuti, a
Bodhisattva should thus practice charity without cherishing any idea of
form, his merit will be beyond conception. Subhuti,
what do you think? Can you have the conception of space extending eastward?"
"No, World-honoured One, I cannot."
Subhuti, can you have the conception of space extending towards the south,
or west, or north, or above, or below?"
"No, World-honoured One, I cannot."
"Subhuti, so it is with the merit of a Bodhisattva who practices charity
without cherishing any idea of form; it is beyond
conception. Subhuti, a Bodhisattva should cherish only that which is taught
to him.
5. "Subhuti, what do you think? Is the Tathagata to be recognised after a
body-form?"
"No, World-honoured One, he is not to be recognised after a body-form. Why?
According to the Tathagata, a body-form is
not a body-form."
The Buddha said to Subhuti, "All that has a form is an illusive existence.
When it is perceived that all form is no-form, the
Tathagata is recognised."
6. Subhuti said to the Buddha: "World-honoured One, if beings hear such
words and statements, would they have a true faith
in them?"
The Buddha said to Subhuti: "Do not talk that way. In the last five hundred
years after the passing of the Tathagata, there may
be beings who, having practised rules of morality and, being thus possessed
of merit, happen to hear of these statements and
rouse a true faith in them. Such beings, you must know, are those who have
planted their root of merit not only under one, two,
three, four, or five Buddhas, but already under thousands of myriads of
asamkhyeyas of Buddhas have they planted their root
of merit of all kinds. Those who hearing these statements rouse even one
thought of pure faith, Subhuti, are all known to the
Tathagata, and recognised by him as having acquired such an immeasurable
amount of merit. Why? Because all these beings
are free from the idea of an ego, a person, a being, or a soul; they are
free from the idea of a dharma as well as from that of a
no-dharma. Why? Because if they cherish in their minds the idea of a form,
they are attached to an ego, a person, a being, or a
soul. If they cherish the idea of a dharma, they are attached to an ego, a
person, a being, or a soul. Why? If they cherish the
idea of a no-dharma, they are attached to an ego, a person, a being, or a
soul. Therefore, do not cherish the idea of a dharma,
nor that of a no-dharma. For this reason, the Tathagata always preaches
thus: `O you Bhikshus, know that my teaching is to be
likened unto a raft. Even a dharma is cast aside, much more a no-dharma.'
7. "Subhuti, what do you think? Has the Tathagata attained the supreme
enlightenment? Has he something about which he
would preach?"
Subhuti said:
"World-honoured One, as I understand the teaching of the Buddha, there is no
fixed doctrine about which the Tathagata would
preach. Why? Because the doctrine he preaches is not to be adhered to, nor
is it to be preached about; it is neither a dharma
nor a no-dharma. How is it so? Because all wise men belong to the category
known as non-doing (asamskara), and yet they
are distinct from one another.
8. "Subhuti, what do you think? If a man should fill the three thousand
chilocosms with the seven precious treasures and give
them all away for charity, would not the merit he thus obtains be great?"
Subhuti said:
"Very great, indeed, World-honoured One."
"Why? Because their merit is characterised with the quality of not being a
merit. Therefore, the Tathagata speaks of the merit
as being great. If again there is a man who, holding even the four lines in
this sutra, preaches about it to others, his merit will be
superior to the one just mentioned. Because, Subhuti, all the Buddhas and
their supreme enlightenment issue from this sutra.
Subhuti, what is known as the teaching of the Buddha is not the teaching of
the Buddha.
9. "Subhuti, what do you think? Does a Srotapanna think in this wise: `I
have obtained the fruit of Srotappatti'?"
Subhuti said:
"No, World-honoured One, he does not. Why? Because while Srotapanna means
`entering the stream' there is no entering
here. He is called a Srotapanna who does not enter (a world of) form, sound,
odour, taste, touch, and quality.
"Subhuti, what do you think? Does a Sakridagamin think in this wise, `I have
obtained the fruit of a Sakridagamin'?"
Subhuti said:
"No, World-honoured One, he does not. Why? Because while Sakridagamin means
`going-and-coming for once', there is
really no going-and-coming here, and he is then called a Sakridagamin."
"Subhuti, what do you think? Does an Anagamin think in this wise: `I have
obtained the fruit of an Anagamin'?"
Subhuti said:
"No, World-honoured One, he does not. Why? Because while Anagamin means
`not-coming' there is really no not-coming
and therefore he is called an Anagamin."
"Subhuti, what do you think? Does an Arhat think in this wise: `I have
obtained Arhatship'?"
Subhuti said:
"No, World-honoured One, he does not. Why? Because there is no dharma to be
called Arhat. If, World-honoured One, an
Arhat thinks in this wise: `I have obtained Arhatship,' this means that he
is attached to an ego, a person, a being, or a soul.
Although the Buddha says that I am the foremost of those who have attained
Arana-samadhi, that I am the foremost of those
Arhats who are liberated from evil desires, World-honoured One, I cherish no
such thought that I have attained Arhatship.
World-honoured One, (if I did,) you would not tell me: `O Subhuti, you are
one who enjoys the life of non-resistance.' Just
because Subhuti is not at all attached to this life, he is said to be the
one who enjoys the life of non-resistance."
10. The Buddha said to Subhuti:
"What do you think? When the Tathagata was anciently with Dipankara Buddha
did he have an attainment in the dharma?"
"No, World-honoured One, he did not. The Tathagata while with Dipankara
Buddha had no attainment whatever in the
dharma."
"Subhuti, what do you think? Does a Bodhisattva set any Buddha land in array?"
"No, World-honoured One, he does not."
"Why? Because to set a Buddha land in array is not to set it in array, and
therefore it is known as setting it in array. Therefore,
Subhuti, all the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas should thus rouse a pure thought.
They should not cherish any thought dwelling on
form; they should not cherish any thought dwelling on sound, odour, taste,
touch, and quality; they should cherish thoughts
dwelling on nothing whatever. Subhuti, it is like unto a human body equal in
size to Mount Sumeru; what do you think? Is not
this body large?"
Subhuti said:
"Very large indeed, World-honoured One. Why? Because the Buddha teaches that
that which is no-body is known as a large
body."
11. "Subhuti, regarding the sands of the Ganga, suppose there as many Ganga
rivers as those sands, what do you think? Are
not the sands of all those Ganga rivers many?"
Subhuti said:
"Very many, indeed, World-honoured One."
Buddha said to Subhuti:
"If a good man or a good woman holding even four lines from this sutra
preach it to others, this merit is much larger than the
preceding one.
12. "Again, Subhuti, wherever this sutra or even four lines of it are
preached, this place will be respected by all beings including
Devas, Asuras, etc., as if it were the Buddha's own shrine or chaitya; how
much more a person who can hold and recite this
sutra! Subhuti, you should know that such a person achieves the highest,
foremost, and most wonderful deed. Wherever this
sutra is kept, the place is to be regarded as if the Buddha or a venerable
disciple of his were present."
13. At that time, Subhuti said to the Buddha:
"World-honoured One, what will this sutra be called? How should we hold it?"
The Buddha said to Subhuti:
"This sutra will be called the Vajra-prajna-paramita, and by this title you
will hold it. The reason is, Subhuti, that, according to
the teaching of the Buddha, Prajnaparamita is not Prajnaparamita and
therefore it is called Prajnaparamita. Subhuti, what do
you think? Is there anything about which the Tathagata preaches?"
Subhuti said to the Buddha:
"World-honoured One, there is nothing about which the Tathagata preaches."
"Subhuti, what do you think? Is the Tathagata to be recognised by the
thirty-two marks (of a great man)?"
"No, World-honoured One, he is not."
"The Tathagata is not to be recognised by the thirty-two marks because what
are said to be the thirty-two marks are told by
the Tathagata to be no-marks and therefore to be the thirty-two marks.
Subhuti, if there be a good man or a good woman who
gives away his or her lives as many as the sands of the Ganga, his or her
merit thus gained does not exceed that of one who,
holding even one gatha of four lines from this sutra, preaches them for
others."
14. At that time Subhuti, listening to this sutra, had a deep understanding
of its significance, and, filled with tears of gratitude,
said this to the Buddha:
"Wonderful, indeed, World-honoured One, that the Buddha teaches us this
sutra full of deep sense. Such a sutra has never
been heard by me even with an eye of wisdom acquired in my past lives.
World-honoured One, if there be a man who listening
to this sutra acquires a true believing heart he will then have a true idea
of things. This one is to be known as having achieved a
most wonderful virtue. World-honoured One, what is known as a true idea is
no-idea, and for this reason it is called a true
idea.
"World-honoured One, it is not difficult for me to believe, to understand,
and to hold this sutra to which I have now listened;
but in the ages to come, in the next five hundred years, if there are beings
who listening to this sutra are able to believe, to
understand, and to hold it, they will indeed be most wonderful beings. Why?
Because they will have no idea of an ego, of a
person, of a being, or of a soul. For what reason? The idea of an ego is
no-idea (of ego), the idea of a person, a being, or a
soul is no-idea (of a person, a being, or a soul). For what reason? They are
Buddhas who are free from all kinds of ideas."
The Buddha said to Subhuti,
"It is just as you say. If there be a man who, listening to this sutra, is
neither frightened nor alarmed nor disturbed, you should
know him as a wonderful person. Why? Subhuti, it is taught by the Tathagata
that the first Paramita is no-first-Paramita and
therefore it is called the first Paramita. Subhuti, the Paramita of humility
is no-Paramita of humility and therefore it is called the
Paramita of humility . Why? Subhuti, anciently, when my body was cut to
pieces by the King of Kalinga, I had neither the idea
of an ego, nor the idea of a person, nor the idea of a being, nor the idea
of a soul. Why? When at that time my body was
dismembered, limb after limb, joint after joint, if I had the idea of an
ego, or of a person, or of a being, or of a soul, the feeling
of anger and ill-will would have been awakened in me. Subhuti, I remember in
my past hundred births, I was a rishi called
Kshanti, and during those times I had neither the idea of an ego, nor that
of a person, nor that of a being, nor that of a soul.
"Therefore, Subhuti, you should, detaching yourself from all ideas, rouse
the desire for the supreme enlightenment. You should
cherish thoughts without dwelling on form, you should cherish thoughts
without dwelling on sound, odour, taste, touch, or
quality. Whatever thoughts you may have, they are not to dwell on anything.
If a thought dwells on anything, this is said to be
no-dwelling. Therefore, the Buddha teaches that a Bodhisattva is not to
practice charity by dwelling on form. Subhuti, the
reason he practices charity is to benefit all beings.
"The Tathagata teaches that all ideas are no-ideas, and again that all
beings are no-beings. Subhuti, the Tathagata is the one
who speaks what is true, the one who speaks what is real, the one whose
words are as they are, the one who does not speak
falsehood, the one who does not speak equivocally.
"Subhuti, in the Dharma attained by the Tathagata there is neither truth nor
falsehood. Subhuti, if a Bodhisattva should practice
charity, cherishing a thought which dwells on the Dharma, he is like unto a
person who enters the darkness, he sees nothing. If
he should practice charity without cherishing a thought that dwells on the
Dharma, he is like unto a person with eyes, he sees all
kinds of forms illumined by the sunlight.
"Subhuti, if there are good men and good women in the time to come who hold
and recite this sutra, they will be seen and
recognised by the Tathagata with his Buddha-knowledge, and they will all
mature immeasurable and innumerable merit.
15. "Subhuti, if there is a good man or a good woman who would in the first
part of the day sacrifice as many bodies of his or
hers as the sands of the Ganga, and again in the middle part of the day
sacrifice as many bodies of his or hers as the sands of
the Ganga, and again in the latter part of the day sacrifice as many bodies
of his or hers as the sands of the Ganga, and keep
up these sacrifices through hundred-thousands of myriads of kotis of kalpas;
and if there were another who listened to this
sutra would accept it with a believing heart, the merit the latter would
acquire would far exceed that of the former. How much
more the merit of one who would copy, hold, learn, and recite and expound it
for others!
"Subhuti, to sum up, there is in this sutra a mass of merit, immeasurable,
innumerable, and incomprehensible. The Tathagata has
preached this for those who were awakened in the Mahayana (great vehicle),
he has preached it for those who were
awakened in the Sreshthayana (highest vehicle). If there were beings who
would hold and learn and expound it for others, they
would all be known to the Tathagata and recognised by him, and acquire merit
which is unmeasured, immeasurable,
innumerable, and incomprehensible. Such beings are known to be carrying the
supreme enlightenment attained by the
Tathagata. Why? Subhuti, those who desire inferior doctrines are attached to
the idea of an ego, a person, a being, and a soul.
They are unable to hear, hold, learn, recite, and for others expound this
sutra. Subhuti, wherever this sutra is preserved, there
all beings, including Devas and Asuras, will come and worship it. This place
will have to be known as a chaitya, the object of
worship and obeisance, where the devotees gather around, scatter flowers,
and burn incense.
16. "Again, Subhuti, there are some good men and good women who will be
despised for their holding and reciting this sutra.
This is due to their previous evil karma for the reason of which they were
to fall into the evil paths of existence; but because of
their being despised in the present life, whatever evil karma they produced
in their previous lives will be thereby destroyed, and
they will be able to obtain the supreme enlightenment.
"Subhuti, as I remember, in my past lives innumerable asamkhyeya kalpas ago
I was with Dipankara Buddha, and at that time I
saw Buddhas as many as eighty-four hundred-thousands of myriads of nayutas
and made offerings to them and respectfully
served them all, and not one of them was passed by me.
If again in the last (five hundred) years, there have been people who hold
and recite and learn this sutra, the merit they thus
attain (would be beyond calculation), for when this is compared with the
merit I have attained by serving all the Buddhas, the
latter will not exceed one hundredth part of the former, no, not one hundred
thousand ten millionth part. No, it is indeed
beyond calculation, beyond analogy.
"Subhuti, if there have been good men and good women in the last five
hundred years who hold, recite, and learn this sutra, the
merit they attain thereby I cannot begin to enumerate in detail. If I did,
those who listen to it would lose their minds, cherish
grave doubts, and not believe at all how beyond comprehension is the
significance of this sutra and also how also beyond
comprehension the rewards are."
18. The Buddha said to Subhuti:
"Of all beings in those innumerable lands, the Tathagata knows well all
their mental traits. Why? Because the Tathagata teaches
that all those mental traits are no-traits and therefore they are known to
be mental traits. Subhuti, thoughts of the past are
beyond grasp, thoughts of the present are beyond grasp, and thoughts of the
future are beyond grasp."
23. "Again, Subhuti, this Dharma is even and has neither elevation nor
depression; and it is called supreme enlightenment.
Because a man practices everything that is good, without cherishing the
thought of an ego, a person, a being, and a soul, he
attains the supreme enlightenment. Subhuti, what is called good is no-good,
and therefore it is known as good."
26. "Subhuti what do you think? Can a man see the Tathagata by the
thirty-two marks (of a great man)?"
Subhuti said:
"So it is, so it is. The Tathagata is seen by his thirty-two marks."
The Buddha said to Subhuti:
"If the Tathagata is to been seen by his thirty-two marks, can the
Cakravartin be a Tathagata?"
Subhuti said to the Buddha:
"World-honoured One, as I understand the teaching of the Buddha, the
Tathagata is not to be seen by the thirty-two marks."
Then the World-honoured One uttered this gatha:
"If any one by form sees me,
By voice seeks me,
This one walks the false path,
And cannot see the Tathagata."
29. "Subhuti, if a man should declare that the Tathagata is the one who
comes, or goes, or sits, or lies, he does not understand
the meaning of my teachings. Why? The Tathagata does not come from anywhere,
and does not depart to anywhere; therefore
he is called the Tathagata.
32. "How does a man expound it for others? When one is not attached to form,
it is of Suchness remaining unmoved. Why?
"All composite things (samskrita)
Are like a dream, a phantasm, a bubble, and a
shadow,
Are like a dew-drop and a flash of lightening;
They are thus to be regarded."
>******************************************************************
>Derek Beaulieu
>House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
>#502-728 3rd Ave NW
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
>ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
>"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
>******************************************************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:48:50 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>
Subject: Re: diamond sutra
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
One last link that seems to have a full text
http://www3.l0pht.com/~gil/diamond.html
At 02:30 PM 12/19/97 -0700, you wrote:
>beat-lers
>i was wondering - esp cponcerning how often kerouac made reference to it-
>does anyone know where i could find a copy of the diamond sutra? does any
>one have an extra copy they would trade? help?!
>thanks ya'll
>yrs
>derek
>
>******************************************************************
>Derek Beaulieu
>House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
>#502-728 3rd Ave NW
>Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
>ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
>"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
>******************************************************************
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:21:21 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: for Ksenija et al: Emerson's greatest opus
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
from "Nature":
Crossing a bare common, in snow puddles, at twilight, under a clouded sky,
without having in my thoughts any occurence of special good fortune, I have
enjoyed a perfect exhilaration.
I am glad to the brink of fear.
In the woods, too, a man casts off his years, as the snake his slough, and at
what period soever of life is always a child.
In the woods is perpetual youth.
Within these plantations of God, a decorum and sanctity reign, a perennial
festival is dressed, and the guest sees not how he should tire of them
in a thousand years.
In the woods, we return to reason and faith.
There i feel that nothing can befall me in life,-- no disgrace, no calamity
(leaving my eyes), which nature cannot repair.
Standing on the bare ground,-- my head bathed by the blithe air and uplifted
into infinite space,-- all mean egotism vanishes.
I become a transparent eyeball;
I am nothing;
I see all;
the currents of the universal being circulate through me;
I am part or a parcel of God.
The neame of the nearest friend sounds then foreign and accidental: to be
brothers, to be aquaintences, master or servant, is then a trifle and a
disturbamce.
I am the lover of uncontained and immortal beauty.
In the wilderness, I find something more dear and connate than in the streets
or vilages.
In the tranquil landscape, and especially in the distant line of the horizon,
man beholds somewhat as beautiful as his own nature.
* * *
Ah.
sorry to everyone that this had to be transfered via the non-beauty of the
internet, but im afraid that my psychic capabilities abandoned me 16 years
ago.
-- Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:44:33 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Is Jeopardy Beat?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Jeopardy tonight there where two beat references:
WSB - _Naked Lunch_ obsenity trial question
&
Gary Snyder - what did he study in Japan
Can't remember the category though.
Weird, two in one night. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:47:34 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Is Jeopardy Beat?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:44 PM 12/19/97 -0500, I wrote:
>On Jeopardy tonight there where two beat references:
^^^^^
Oops, that's alright I originally spelt Jeopardy/Jeapordy.
The spell check in my brain is on holidaze. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:06:11 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Michael Czarnecki <peent@SERVTECH.COM>
Subject: Re: Is Jeopardy Beat?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>On Jeopardy tonight there where two beat references:
>
>WSB - _Naked Lunch_ obsenity trial question
>&
>Gary Snyder - what did he study in Japan
>
>Can't remember the category though.
>
>Weird, two in one night. . .
>
>Mike
Category was "Beatnik Literature" and the ther three qusions in category
had to do with "On the Road" Corso's "Bomb" and "Howl."
mc2
p.s. Hello mc on the coast!
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:12:15 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Re: Is Jeopardy Beat?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:06 PM 12/19/97 -0500, mc2 wrote:
>Category was "Beatnik Literature" and the ther
>three qusions in category had to do with "On the Road"
>Corso's "Bomb" and "Howl."
That would explain it. I came in and turned on
the tube in the middle of the match and wasn't
really tuned in until I heard the _Naked Lunch_
question.
Thanx,
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:43:39 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Hendrix cross post
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Here is a cross post question from the Hendrix list. It is not my post,
but I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this at all.
> Message-ID: <3499C050.65F5@epix.net>
> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:31:12 -0500
> From: "S. Fortuna"
> Subject: Hendrix and the Transcendentalists
>
> Over the past few months, I have been increasingly and increasingly more
interested in
> the works of two Transcendentalists, Thoreau and Emerson. After reading their
essays I
> can't help to think that many of their writings contain ideas that Hendrix
shared. I
> was wondering if anybody knows if Hendrix was in fact inspired or interested
in these
> two "hippies of the 1800's".
>
> Take care,
> Seth Fortuna
> tlf303@epix.net
>
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:10:28 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Mellincamp cut ups
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I was born in a small town,
Learned to fear Jesus in a small town,
This little ditty about Jack and Diane,
Two American kids from the heartland,
Jackie say Diane, you pull off those Bobbie (sp?) Brooks let me do what I
please,
I fight authority authority always wins
Play Guitar,
There's blood on the scarecrow, blood on the plow,
Blood on the scarecrow, blood on the plow,
I need a lover that won't drive me crazy, some woman who knows the meaning
of, Hey hit the highway,
There's a black man, living by the Interstate, thinks he's got it so good,
I remember when, you could stop a clock
And ain't that America, for you and me,
There was Frankie Lymon, Mitch Ryder, they were rockin
Play guitar, yeah yeah yeah, play guitar,
I saw you first, don't that give me the right,
There's a Cuban band crucifying John Lennon.
Tyson Ouellette wrote:
> thinking about the discussion we were having a while back about
> musicians influenced by beats... just like to throw John Mellencamp's
> name at y'all... someone who i've always considered very beat in his
> life and even more so in his lyrics... would be interested to hear some
> thoughts on this from other who've enjoyed his music..
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:21:42 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Virgin
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Circa 997, bald cyprus
Trees with knees,
speak an ancient tounge
Forgotten.
Four Hole Swamp
beyond Harleyville, south of St George,
North of Summerville,
Is virgin territory.
Once 10,000,000 acres, now 85,000
Virgin acres.
Tiny warbler
teases me from branch to branch.
Crow taunts me high above.
Man hammer echo echo echo echo echo.
Snakes and turtles sleep.
Musky marsh attacks me now.
As we leave, I see the lazy smoke stream,
Like fog rising from Magnolia leaves,
and lazily drifting to the trees and
Into virgin cypress knees.
Fog enshrouds us still,
Drifting as condemned we will
Violate the vigins in the sacred grove
And destroy all remants
To quell the ancient accusing tounge.
Till Magnolia fog smokes us
To song's extinction,
Moving up the chain,
Up the chain.
12/19/97 Bentz
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 21:39:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Hello to MC
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Leon:
I thought that was it, but was not paying attention to previous posts.
Please tell Marie I say hello and come to the South, but alas, we have
no poetry readings here. But she could read at my House.
:-)
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:49:52 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: attn: marie
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Marie:
Hey there, girl, how's the weather? Probably a lot better than Iowa is
right now--although it is kind of warm for this time of year. So, first
question is--do we continue to send personal e-mail to your regular
address or do we send it to the hotmail address, and what exactly is
that hotmail address?????I sent some poetry your way a day or two ago,
to your regular address and just wanted to make sure you got it. Take
your time and kick back and relax and enjoy the sun if there is some.
So anyway, when you're adjusted to the time change and all, write us and
tell us all about your adventures on the way there.
Looking forward to it,
cathy
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:16:56 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sad enigma <Sadenigma@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: hairspray
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
i watched hairspray, the john waters movie, the other day and during the
beatnik scene i was thinking why are beatniks stereotyped as always wearing
black and having straight hair? when did this start and why? just curious
have a happy halloween
<3
chad
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:30:04 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: for Ksenija et al: Emerson's greatest opus
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NICO 88 wrote:
>
> from "Nature":
>
> Crossing a bare common, in snow puddles, at twilight, under a clouded sky,
> without having in my thoughts any occurence of special good fortune, I have
> enjoyed a perfect exhilaration.
> I am glad to the brink of fear.
> In the woods, too, a man casts off his years, as the snake his slough, and at
> what period soever of life is always a child.
> In the woods is perpetual youth.
> Within these plantations of God, a decorum and sanctity reign, a perennial
> festival is dressed, and the guest sees not how he should tire of them
> in a thousand years.
> In the woods, we return to reason and faith.
> There i feel that nothing can befall me in life,-- no disgrace, no calamity
> (leaving my eyes), which nature cannot repair.
> Standing on the bare ground,-- my head bathed by the blithe air and uplifted
> into infinite space,-- all mean egotism vanishes.
>
> I become a transparent eyeball;
> I am nothing;
> I see all;
> the currents of the universal being circulate through me;
> I am part or a parcel of God.
>
> The neame of the nearest friend sounds then foreign and accidental: to be
> brothers, to be aquaintences, master or servant, is then a trifle and a
> disturbamce.
> I am the lover of uncontained and immortal beauty.
> In the wilderness, I find something more dear and connate than in the streets
> or vilages.
> In the tranquil landscape, and especially in the distant line of the horizon,
> man beholds somewhat as beautiful as his own nature.
>
> * * *
> Ah.
> sorry to everyone that this had to be transfered via the non-beauty of the
> internet, but im afraid that my psychic capabilities abandoned me 16 years
> ago.
> -- Ginny.
thanks. it makes so much sense.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:55:25 -0700
Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: marie new address
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
beat-lers
ive been told to let you all know that this is marie countryman's email
while she is in CA. please note that the address below is spelled
correctly (yep - thats countyman NOT countryman)
mcountyman@hotmail.com
ok that is all - transmission out
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 22:59:19 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Kathy Acker
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Has anyone else seen an obituary or any mention of Acker's death in the
newspapers?
I haven't seen any press coverage or mention of her
Am I blind?
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 23:59:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
In-Reply-To: <7bc34e53.349c941b@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
The Village Voice ran an obit on her.
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997, Kindlesan wrote:
> Has anyone else seen an obituary or any mention of Acker's death in the
> newspapers?
>
> I haven't seen any press coverage or mention of her
>
> Am I blind?
>
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:43:30 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: "Sunlight Dies With The Roses"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Cut-up poem using the words of Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Blake and Genet.
"SUNLIGHT DIES WITH THE ROSES"
Once and once only:
Lovable air, torments that laugh!
Your smooth arm on mine ...
Unknown music vibrating
from dark backgrounds
All legend evolves
through boundless dark streets
A paradise of silence
blurred, remote darkness
His life up in the sky
once again this morning
Rainbows weeping and smiling ...
Marvels which shine with
their small thunders
and thick conversation
from the heights of heaven
Flowers, fire, jewels, sunlight dies
with the roses
on the fugitive deck
As elegent songs beat wounds
from the dying air
Murderous gulfs of water and gentle women
Their silence a terrible howl
Memory has never faded
these towering castles of bone ...
Excitement rushes through eternal
whirlwinds melting away
Entranced by the immense bright nothingness
to illuminate these fading fires
A white light falls!
Machines of blood obliterate this scene
Reeds long since dried
visible on convulsed air
among the trembling seas.
-------
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 21:57:56 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: "Sunlight Dies With The Roses"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> This is wonderful Glen, Thanks.
James
>
>
>
> Murderous gulfs of water and gentle women
> Their silence a terrible howl
> Memory has never faded
> these towering castles of bone ...
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 01:02:10 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Kathy Acker
In-Reply-To: <7bc34e53.349c941b@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
There was an obituary in the Chicago Tribune. If there is interest I'll
transcribe it for the list.
j grant
>Has anyone else seen an obituary or any mention of Acker's death in the
>newspapers?
>
>I haven't seen any press coverage or mention of her
>
>Am I blind?
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 02:03:44 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Godfather III - Gregory Corso cameo
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I was just watching Godfather III and noticed for
the first time that Gregory Corso makes a cameo
in the scene where Don Corleone (Pacino) is making his
speech to International Imobiliere (sp.). Corso steps
up to a mic in the audience and is dragged away after
questioning the values of the Corleone family.
Totally slipped by me the other times I've seen this. . .
Mike
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 11:13:36 -0600
Reply-To: cawilkie@comic.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Cathy Wilkie <cawilkie@COMIC.NET>
Subject: marie's vacation address
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thanks for passing this along, derek, much appreciated.
cathy
> Subject:
> marie new address
> Date:
> Sat, 20 Dec 1997 10:55:25 -0700
> From:
> "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
>
>
> beat-lers
> ive been told to let you all know that this is marie countryman's email
> while she is in CA. please note that the address below is spelled
> correctly (yep - thats countyman NOT countryman)
> mcountyman@hotmail.com
> ok that is all - transmission out
> derek
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 13:14:46 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Beautiful and Damned
In-Reply-To: <34961D99.540D@comic.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Cathy says:
>I've never heard of this movie. Was it good? River Phoenix was one of
>my favorite actors, and usually Gus Van Sant is a great director (with
>the exception of Even Cowgirls Get The Blues).
>
ciao Cathy, it's me Rinaldo, u are right.
the movie is titled "My own private idaho",
[in italian ''Belli e Dannati''],
directed by Gus Van Sant in 1992 (dedicated
to Scott Meelloo Nall Jr.)
cast of characters
mike waters river phoenix
scott favor keanu reeves
richard waters james russo
bob pigeon william richert
gary rodney harvey
carmela chiara caselli
digger michael parker
denise jesse thomas
budd flea
elena grace zabriskie
jack favor tom troupe
hans udo kier
jane lightwork sally curtice
walt robert lee pitchlynn
doddy carroll mickey cottrell
wade wade evans
italian street boys
massimo di cataldo
pao pei andreoli
robert egon
paolo baiocco
additional dialogues by william shakespeare
and thanks to B-52's
---
the italiant titler of the movie "Belli e Dannati"
chose that 'cuz the original is untranslable.
maybe it's a pun to "The Beautiful and Damned" novel
written by Francis Scott Fitzgerald" (1922).
---
the movie is good specially in the old style flashback
u can rediscover in the early GVS' movie.
buon sabato e
saluti a tutti.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:24:24 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Leon Tabory <letabor@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: jerry cimino where are you?
Content-Type: text/plain
sorry all. this hotmail thingee isn't working too good
jerry, please mail me at mcountyman@hotmail.com
(remember the m and delete the r)
have time this coming mon. to stop by, say hello.
marie
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:37:33 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Cooper cut up
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Glenn, in your cut up, you wrote this:
> Reeds long since dried
> visible on convulsed air
> among the trembling seas.
>
For some reason, this reminded me of Dylan:
I was lying down in the reeds without any oxygen,
I saw you in the wilderness among the men.
Saw you drift into infinity and come back again
All you got to do is wait and I'll tell you when.
True Love Tends To Forget, 1978
Interesting since Dylan is obviously influenced by the poets you cut
up. Like a poetry vegematic, it was quite good.
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:57:59 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Nancy B Brodsky <nbb203@IS8.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Chanukah
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hey Guys,
For Chanukah, I got the Herbert Huncke Reader. ITs mey first experience
with Huncke and I look foward to it.
~Nancy
The Absence of Sound, Clear and Pure, The Silence Now Heard In Heaven For
Sure-JK
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:01:42 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Shawn Deveau" <rdeveau@CCINET.AB.CA>
Subject: How do I sign up?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi there!
Got your address from a friend of mine, and would like to know how to sign up!
Do you have a homepage?
TIA!
R. Shawn Deveau
==========
"It is the province of knowledge to speak,
and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen."
-Oliver Wendell Holmes
==========
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:40:26 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Postcard from WSB
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't know if getting postcards from Beat giants like William Burroughs
is unusual or not, but I got one a few years ago. Here's the story, for
anyone who's interested. In 1994, here in Australia, there was an article
in the paper about a woman who had died during an alleged exorcism. Her
killers (including her husband) claimed the woman was "possessed" and had
tried to drive "demons" from her body, but the woman had a heartache and
died before help could arrive. Well, it turns out the woman's name was
*Joan Vollmer*! exactly the same name as Burroughs' wife way back when!
I thought Burroughs might find the article interesting, given that now
*two* "Joan Vollmers" had died in bizarre circumstances, so I wrote to him,
enclosing the clipping, using simply "William Burroughs, Lawrence, Kansas,
USA" as the address and, lo and behold, he got it!
He sent back a nice customised postcard with one his paintings on the
cover ("Untitled" - Window 6), with the following message:
Dear Glenn Cooper,
Many thanks for the clipping. I always say there is no such thing as a
coincidence.
All the best to you,
William S. Burroughs
Obviously I would have liked a longer letter, but I was still absolutely
thrilled that the Great Man should deign to respond at all!
I'm rather hoping this little episode will get a mention in the forthcoming
memoirs, you never know!
Anyway, that's my 15 seconds of fame, I guess ...
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:34:04 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Cooper cut up
In-Reply-To: <349D8C1D.4C521B92@scsn.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 16:37 21/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Glenn, in your cut up, you wrote this:
>
>
>> Reeds long since dried
>> visible on convulsed air
>> among the trembling seas.
>>
>For some reason, this reminded me of Dylan:
>
>I was lying down in the reeds without any oxygen,
>I saw you in the wilderness among the men.
>Saw you drift into infinity and come back again
>All you got to do is wait and I'll tell you when.
>
>True Love Tends To Forget, 1978
>
>Interesting since Dylan is obviously influenced by the poets you cut
>up. Like a poetry vegematic, it was quite good.
>
>Peace,
>
>Bentz
>bocelts@scsn.net
>http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
>
Bentz,
Yes, that's true. I have cut up Dylan in the past, with great results. As
WSB says, the wonderful thing about cut-ups is that they allow
collaborations between writers who in reality never met. For example, I've
made cut-ups combining the words of Dylan, Nostradamus, the Bible and
Rimbaud! Everything that WSB discovered about cut-ups, I have been able to
verify with my own experiments, including predicting future events.
Example: Cut-up from May 10, 1994
massive waiting line - I have not forgotten - which is a bottle of blood
for anyone that love is done with - the images I did not want - an electric
train - vying with one another - desperare hearts too vast - there we all
sat - Journey - there is still one step in the right direction - on the
windsheet of the clouds the train was moving - their final fires - dying
man pulled me close - trying to get hold of something - twin limbs of iron
rise from the gloom - terror loomed weary my poor darling - into a heavy
sleep - into a thousand flowers - my tears ...
This cut-up seemed to tell the story of a train disaster -- "Terror loomed
weary my poor darling" - "their final fires," etc.
Seven days later, the following headline appeared in the newspaper: ONE
DIES, 370 HURT AS TRAINS COLLIDE, which told of a two train collision in
North Carolina. I have a scrapbook full of such "coincidences" ...
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:45:11 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Beautiful and Damned
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> Cathy says:
> >I've never heard of this movie. Was it good? River Phoenix was one of
> >my favorite actors, and usually Gus Van Sant is a great director (with
> >the exception of Even Cowgirls Get The Blues).
> >
>
> Cathy
It's a wonderful movie in it's way. Not something you want to watch when
you are looking for uplift, but that's Van Zant. Drugstore Cowboy is
stronger for me. I keep meaning to rent Cowgirls, I just can't believe it's
as bad as the reviews, I mean, with Van Zant, Uma Thuman, Robbins and Kesey
hanging around, gotta be something good there.
James
=========================================================================
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 23:42:18 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
Subject: Re: Cooper cut up
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Glenn Cooper wrote:
> I have a scrapbook full of such "coincidences" ...
>
> Glenn C.
Take what you have gathered from coincidence.
Bob Dylan
--
Peace,
Bentz
bocelts@scsn.net
http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:08:41 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Ksenija Simic <xenias@EUNET.YU>
Subject: Re: Cooper cut up
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Yes, that's true. I have cut up Dylan in the past, with great results. As
> WSB says, the wonderful thing about cut-ups is that they allow
> collaborations between writers who in reality never met. For example, I've
> made cut-ups combining the words of Dylan, Nostradamus, the Bible and
> Rimbaud! Everything that WSB discovered about cut-ups, I have been able to
> verify with my own experiments, including predicting future events.
can you tell me more about how cut-ups are made, are there any rules,
what WSB writes about them etc? is it anything like the dadaist poetry?
ksenija
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:49:53 -0800
Reply-To: vic.begrand@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Adrien Begrand <vic.begrand@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject: holiday wishes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Happy Holidays to all beat-l members!
I'll leave you with the beatest, most beatiful Christmas song ever,
courtesy of Shane MacGowan...
Adrien
_Fairytale of New York_
It was Christmas Eve babe
In the drunk tank
An old man said to me, won't see another one
And then he sang a song
The Rare Old Mountain Dew
I turned my face away
And dreamed about you
Got on a lucky one
Came in eighteen to one
I've got a feeling
This year's for me and you
So happy Christmas
I love you baby
I can see a better time
When all our dreams come true
They've got cars big as bars
They've got rivers of gold
But the wind goes right through you
It's no place for the old
When you first took my hand
On a cold Christmas Eve
You promised me
Broadway was waiting for me
You were handsome
You were pretty
Queen of New York City
When the band finished playing
They howled out for more
Sinatra was swinging,
All the drunks they were singing
We kissed on a corner
Then danced through the night
The boys of the NYPD choir
Were singing "Galway Bay"
And the bells were ringing out
For Christmas day
You're a bum
You're a punk
You're an old slut on junk
Lying there almost dead on a drip in that bed
You scumbag, you maggot
You cheap lousy faggot
Happy Christmas your arse
I pray God it's our last
I could have been someone
Well so could anyone
You took my dreams from me
When I first found you
I kept them with me babe
I put them with my own
Can't make it all alone
I've built my dreams around you
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:28:19 +0000
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Hendrix cross post
I think one would be hard pressed to turn up any tangible evidence of
Jimi having read Emerson or Thoreau.Tthis is not to say that Hendrix
wasn't intuitively sympathetic with their ideas, but as far as I know his
taste in reading tended to be along the lines of science fiction (see
_Electric Gypsy_ pg.25). Always thought " Castles Made of Sand" was kinda
beat tho...
Best,
Jim
juancito@juno.com
P.S. Bentz, please e-mail me privately if you would like to discuss the
'69 Texas Int'l pop fest.
On Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:43:39 -0500 "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>
writes:
>Here is a cross post question from the Hendrix list. It is not my post,
>but I wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this at all.
>
>
>> Message-ID: <3499C050.65F5@epix.net>
>> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 19:31:12 -0500
>> From: "S. Fortuna"
>> Subject: Hendrix and the Transcendentalists
>>
>> Over the past few months, I have been increasingly and increasingly
moreinterested in
>> the works of two Transcendentalists, Thoreau and Emerson. After
>>reading their essays I can't help to think that many of their writings
contain ideas that Hendrix >>shared. I was wondering if anybody knows if
Hendrix was in fact inspired or interestedin >>these two "hippies of the
1800's".
>>
>> Take care,
>> Seth Fortuna
>> tlf303@epix.net
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:52:30 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: sandinista
In-Reply-To: <4ca2b517.349b70ea@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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yr eyes yr eyes yr eyes like gun in the jungle
yr eyes yr eyes yr eyes like envelope without stamp
yr eyes yr eyes yr eyes from martinica (latin american)
american y'all satellite dish yr eyes yr eyes yr eyes
who died had no will & no insurance & yr eyes
& yr eyes & no avid eyes no avid eyes no avid eyes he had
always work no avid eyes slap slap slap SLAP! all is
quiet on the jungle & blue danube very nice
folks
ready to serve
folks
go in
folks
go out
forever like these artificial colouring
tropical flowers in the nite
---
Rinaldo
22thDic97
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:53:37 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: "Sea" (fragment) & (FWD) poem: 17/12/97 postscript
In-Reply-To: <4ca2b517.349b70ea@aol.com>
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BOB EZERGAILIS <bob.ezergailis@ghbbs.com> says
> poem: 17/12/97 postscript
> -------------------------
>
> Deus Dominatus
> Postscript:
>
>
> the ultimate archetype
> of a solipsist
> sado-masochist relation
> is the story of a god
> who plans
> from the beginning of time
> knowingly
> to torture
> and crucity
> himself.
> Then, in that story,
> expects everyone else
> to experience
> something of the same
> as he chose
> for himself.
>
...
God I've got to believe in you
or live in death!
Will you save us_____all?
Soon or now?
Send illumination
to our drowing brains
_____We're pitiful, Lord,
we need yr help!
Save us, Dear_____
(Save yourself, God man,
ha ha!)
...
--Jack Kerouac,"Sea"
> ------------------------- December 17th, 1997
>
> I am neither a proponent of sadism nor of masochism,
> solipsist, or otherwise. Therefore I tend to become
> an existentialist. Though, as a thinker, I see the
> cultural expressions of those powerful, persistent,
> prevalent, strands within the fabric of history
> and human expression.
>
> ----------------
>
> ~ SLMR 2.1a ~ bob.ezergailis@ghbbs.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:06:00 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Beautiful and Damned
Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net
In-Reply-To: <349D63B7.94572416@pacbell.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 18.45 21/12/97 +0000, james stauffer says:
>Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
>
>> Cathy says:
>> >I've never heard of this movie. Was it good? River Phoenix was one of
>> >my favorite actors, and usually Gus Van Sant is a great director (with
>> >the exception of Even Cowgirls Get The Blues).
>> >
>>
>> Cathy
>
>It's a wonderful movie in it's way. Not something you want to watch when
>you are looking for uplift, but that's Van Zant. Drugstore Cowboy is
>stronger for me. I keep meaning to rent Cowgirls, I just can't believe it's
>as bad as the reviews, I mean, with Van Zant, Uma Thuman, Robbins and Kesey
>hanging around, gotta be something good there.
>
>James
>
>
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:08:07 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Beautiful and Damned
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:06:00 +0100
>To: stauffer@pacbell.net
>From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@gpnet.it>
>Subject: Re: Beautiful and Damned
>Cc: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>In-Reply-To: <349D63B7.94572416@pacbell.net>
>References: <3.0.1.32.19971220131446.00687a50@pop.gpnet.it>
>
>At 18.45 21/12/97 +0000, james stauffer says:
>>It's a wonderful movie in it's way. Not something you want to watch when
>>you are looking for uplift, but that's Van Zant. Drugstore Cowboy is
>>stronger for me. I keep meaning to rent Cowgirls, I just can't believe it's
>>as bad as the reviews, I mean, with Van Zant, Uma Thuman, Robbins and Kesey
>>hanging around, gotta be something good there.
>>
>>James
>>
>>
the movie is titled "My own private idaho",
[in italian ''Belli e Dannati'']
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:48:54 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GTL1951 <GTL1951@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: sandinista
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Hey Rinaldo
Great poem man! Didnt see any Xmas references in there tho! Whats
up with that?! Just kiddin
GT
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:39:09 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Cooper cut up
In-Reply-To: <349E9E99.7D60@eunet.yu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:08 22/12/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>> Yes, that's true. I have cut up Dylan in the past, with great results. As
>> WSB says, the wonderful thing about cut-ups is that they allow
>> collaborations between writers who in reality never met. For example, I've
>> made cut-ups combining the words of Dylan, Nostradamus, the Bible and
>> Rimbaud! Everything that WSB discovered about cut-ups, I have been able to
>> verify with my own experiments, including predicting future events.
>
>can you tell me more about how cut-ups are made, are there any rules,
>what WSB writes about them etc? is it anything like the dadaist poetry?
>
>ksenija
>
There are no rules. Firstly some theory: according to Burroughs, everything
in this universe is pre-recorded, every thought, every word, every event.
It is only by introducing a "random" element can one tamper with the
pre-recordings. Cut-ups on paper are one means.
Cut-ups can be made a number of ways. One way is this: take a group of
texts you like, be they Rimbaud, dreams, Kerouac, daily newspaper, Time
mag, Koran, Trocchi or whatever. You then type out certain passages (any
ones you like -- visually interesting images work best, though), print out
the page, cut it down the middle and across the page, then rearrange the
four pieces. Then read directly across the page. New images and words are
formed through altered juxtaposition. So that's one way. I used to do it
this way, but now I have a computer program that does it for me. I simply
load the texts I want, and the program cuts them up for me. It's like magik!
Of course, one edits, selects and combines at one's will. From a whole page
of cut ups you might only get one worthwhile sentence. At other times you
get one fabulous image after another.
Cut-ups can also help to suggest new directions in normal, straight
narrative. They expand consciousness and push you in directions that you
never would have imagined.
To answer your question: yes, I guess the cut-ups do have a lot in common
with dadaism. Also surrealism and symbolism. Rimbaud is often cited by WSB
as a "natural" cut-up writer. Elliot's "The Waste Land" is another cut-up
like poem.
Word falling - photo falling - time falling - image falling - breakthrough
in grey room -
The "breakthrough" was that of the cut-ups.
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:56:12 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The Kerouac Quarterly needs some more Kerouac Book Cover Scans for the
web site...if you have any send them as a JPG file via e-mail attachment.
There are still a few of Vol. I, No. 2 issues left. Vol. II, No. 1 is in
the editing stage and will be available in a couple of months. Keep those
submissions coming!
We are currently in negotiations with a few different universities, one
of which will sponsor and publish the quarterly sometime this coming year.
All those who have purchased an issue or sent their address for a sample
issue will have this info turned over to the hosting univeristy. If there is
any objection to this let me know! If you want to be put on the mailing list
e-mail me your name and address and it will be turned over when the time
comes. My objective, to found the first academic journal devoted to Kerouac
scholarly study will be accomplished. Then I will put the final touches on
my book. . .
Looking For Jack: Kerouac and Lowell.
Happy Holidays to the Beat-L! Have a Happy New Year! Paul of TKQ. . .
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:08:59 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Holiday Greetings
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Dear Beat-L folks,
Wishing you all a properly insane and fulfilling holiday season.
I couldn't find a link to Cheech and Chong's Xmas bit, so send you all
this bit of young Bobby Dylan.
Peace and all the good things.
James
http://www.fmi-fcia.uchicago.edu/~jrr/tbob/lnsmxmas.html
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<head>
<TITLE>Lonesome Christmas (Prose fragment)</TITLE>
<BODY TEXT="#000000" LINK="#000000" VLINK="#000000" ALINK="#000000"
background="rule.gif">
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<BR>
<TT><B><A HREF=index.html#words>Bob's Written Word</A></B>
</TT><BR>
<B>Lonesome Christmas (Prose fragment)</B>
the school quarter ended, an there I stood ...
stranded ha ...
it was harder then I thought yes...
I dont think I made it ... no ... the nite was drunk and it was now winter ...
Christmas vacation ... the almighty restin
period ...
I was livin in this fraternity house.
Everybody's gone ... they all went home ... the house?
mine ... belongs t me.
big lonesome house.
nobody's even ???? not even in the kitchen ...
I sat between two barrals of butter this mornin. thinkin about poor me.
sittin between two barrals of butter.
it's now nite the street is mine.
god it's lonesome ...
who will I go see?
I love Judy.
Judy says she loves me but she also says she's busy. I told her I love her ...
I hate her cause I sense she dont love me ...
I wish I didn't love her. I wish she'd invite me for christmas for
christ's sake ... I wish I had a car ...
I wish I wish. Hey mr. christmas man I wanna know where I'm supposed t be.
gimme that for christmas ... (no answer).
I shut the lights off in the main room of the house so nobody can see me an I
watch out the window ...
dirty window nobody even cleans the windows here
well it aint gonna be me (bitin my teeth)
I'm just
roomin here ... they advertised for boarders an they got me ...
they didn't get no fraternity pledge of alligence cat whose got t wait
on them or their windows ...
I aint even friends with any of em
they think I'm odd ... my clothes an hair aint right ...
they smile at me too ...
sometimes I smile back but then they chuckle ...
why in the fuck do they chuckle?
I gotta chuckle back what's they start it for?
headlights turn into the alley!
somebody's comin ...
I quick pick up the phone an pretend I'm talkin ...
dont want nobody whoever it is t think I'm all alone here ...
the brakes slam the car door slams the screen door slams an somebody
who I hardly know walks up the steps an seems startled by me ...
he stops headin for whatever he was headin for as he hears me say
goodbye an hang up the phone ...
"you been here the last couple day?"
"no I went up north but came back down"
"aint yuh going home for christmas?"
"well I did man but like I said I came back down"
"well where you going for christmas?"
I look out the window pretendin I'm waiting for somebody -
he's gotta have porpoise brains t believe this
"I dont know I got about three places I chose from"
"yeah well I's just surprised t see anybody here that's all"
"yeah well I'm kinda takin care the house ha"
"I'm on my way upstairs t get some books see yuh on my way down"
he jumped the steps three at a time thud thud ...
man if I had the guts I think I do I'd steal
your louzy car an turn on your louzy heat an drive down
that lousy road ... an blow out your lousy radio -
thud thud ... he's back again wavin notebooks.
"see yuh take it easy now"
"yeah yeah take it easy too"
I walked upstairs ... the house was cold ...
the first snow that fell had melted
outside it was rainin
in the mornin there'd be snow again
I stopped into somebody's room an glanced
over some dirty magazines ... man I wish I could jump right
into one a them magazines ... ah yes gimme that
for christmas too ...
what's all this wrapped up ribbon shit ...
gimme some kinda world t jump into ...
judy judy god damn I gotta call judy ...
ring ring her ma answers.
her ma hates me.
snobby sort ...
wants the best for her daughter.
society bitch.
bitch of a mother ...
talks down at me when she knows it's me callin ...
sometimes she even says that judy aint there ...
judy says not t call at certain times ...
ah man it's all so fuckin complicated ...
"is judy there?"
"pause"
"is judy there?"
"muffled sound"
"I gotta talk t judy"
"a muffled silence"
"hello"
"hello judy?"
"I told you not t call what d'yuh think you're doing?"
"I just gotta ask yuh something"
"what?"
I feel good from hearin her voice but feel sad
cause I know she's gotta go ...
probably with someone else ...
someone else her mother likes an makes more sence t her than me ...
ah I wanna cry out load an scream over the phone ...
"when can I see you?"
"I told you not t come back"
"yah but yuh said you loved me"
"but I cant see yuh this week"
"why?"
"cause I made other plans that's why"
"but you love me - you said yourself"
"but I cant break plans"
"what d'yuh mean yuh cant, will yuh please come over here, it wont take long an
..."
"but I dont break dates"
"dates? ah wow I just ... I mean I dont understand"
"look I gotta go please dont call til after Christmas"
"Judy you son of a bitch you said ... that ..."
click
"you said that you loved me ..."
slam
girls have hung up on me an have hung up on me as far back
as I can remember ... each one promises t be the last.
I walked out in the lonesome nite hearin bells off in the distance.
the rain drizzled as I too wished I was off in the distance.
<BR>
<TT><B><A HREF=index.html#words>Bob's Written Word</A></B>
</TT><BR>
</head>
</html>
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=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:48:16 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>
Subject: Re: Cooper cut up
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Glenn,
Tll me more of this program you have for producing your cut-ups. My
writing has become a bit stale and I've been in search of a new method of
thought stimulation, if I can just feed in a few pieces I'm working on see
what comes up, well, hey, maybe I'll finally start to get into Burroughs (I
haven't managed to get myself hooked him yet).
Best to all, and merry christmas,
Bruce
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:32:03 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: sandinista
In-Reply-To: <a65a8e1e.349eee58@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
GTL says:
>Hey Rinaldo
> Great poem man! Didnt see any Xmas references in there tho! Whats
>up with that?! Just kiddin
> GT
>
it's u aright...
Mother Nature's son by "The Beatles"
Born a poor young country boy-
Mother Nature's son.
All day long I'm sitting singing songs for everyone.
Sit beside a mountain stream-
...
does it's true that Gary Snyder is the only beat
outlive in the american literature scene in the XXI century?
saluti a tutti,
rinaldo.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:15:03 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971223025612.006a0464@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Paul A. Maher Jr. wrote:
> The Kerouac Quarterly needs some more Kerouac Book Cover Scans for the
>web site...if you have any send them as a JPG file via e-mail attachment.
> There are still a few of Vol. I, No. 2 issues left. Vol. II, No. 1 is in
>the editing stage and will be available in a couple of months. Keep those
>submissions coming!
ciao Paul, it 's me Rinaldo, (i'm true silly)
maybe i've misunderstand that covers are only for OTR.
i've the ultimate _set_ of JK works italian
covers "sulla strada", "big sure", "i vagabondi del dharma",
"angeli di desolazione", "visioni di gerard", "dottor sax",
those all covered by wim wender's photo (i love them).
do i'am aright if i scan and send u the jpegged covers?
say circa january 98?
i'm __very__ grateful & happy to help the TKQ
(by the way (sad), but no copy of the magazine (paper)
for free was coming from Us of America to my earth mailbox
here in Venice... i've misunderstand again the past offer?)
un saluto, e, of course, un BUON NATALE DALL'ITALIA.
drop me a line...
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:15:25 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: william s burroughs: wising up the marks
Mime-Version: 1.0
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beat-l'ers
i just thought that i would let you all know that _william s. burroughs:
wising up the marks_ has been published and in fact is released (i
ordered a copy from amazon and it was shipped today...). does anyone out
there have this book already & i was just not paying attention, or...?
yrs
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:08:01 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: william s burroughs: wising up the marks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971223081321.19412A-100000@srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
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On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
> i just thought that i would let you all know that _william s. burroughs:
> wising up the marks_ has been published and in fact is released (i
> ordered a copy from amazon and it was shipped today...). does anyone out
> there have this book already & i was just not paying attention, or...?
Thanks for the info Derek! The release date I had seen was January 1998,
but I guess they wanted to get this hot item on the shelves for last
minute Christmas shoppers ;-) The University of Toronto bookstore has a
copy, and I'm going to pick it up this afternoon. Probably won't have a
chance to read it until the new year, but when I do, I'll certainly post
my impressions to the list.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:28:31 -0600
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Jym Mooney <jymmoon@EXECPC.COM>
Subject: Re: william s burroughs: wising up the marks
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What is this book? A compilation, previously unpublished or published
stuff, or what?
Jym
----------
> From: Neil M. Hennessy <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
> To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
> Subject: Re: william s burroughs: wising up the marks
> Date: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 10:08 AM
>
> On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:
>
> > i just thought that i would let you all know that _william s.
burroughs:
> > wising up the marks_ has been published and in fact is released (i
> > ordered a copy from amazon and it was shipped today...). does anyone
out
> > there have this book already & i was just not paying attention, or...?
>
> Thanks for the info Derek! The release date I had seen was January 1998,
> but I guess they wanted to get this hot item on the shelves for last
> minute Christmas shoppers ;-) The University of Toronto bookstore has a
> copy, and I'm going to pick it up this afternoon. Probably won't have a
> chance to read it until the new year, but when I do, I'll certainly post
> my impressions to the list.
>
> Cheers,
> Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:18:34 -0500
Reply-To: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@uwaterloo.ca>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Neil M. Hennessy" <nhenness@UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject: Re: william s burroughs: wising up the marks
In-Reply-To: <199712231728.LAA14809@core0.mx.execpc.com>
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On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Jym Mooney wrote:
> What is this book? A compilation, previously unpublished or published
> stuff, or what?
>
> Jym
The book is called "Wising up the Marks: The Amodern William Burroughs" by
Timothy S. Murphy. The book is largely based on his 1995 doctoral
dissertation "Wising Up the Marks: Amodernism in the Work of William S.
Burroughs and Gilles Deleuze", but also includes some material
originally published in a journal article "William S. Burroughs between
Indifference and Revalorization: Notes Toward a Political Reading" in
Angelaki.
What it claims to offer is an analysis of Burroughs' work outside the
modern/postmodern dialectic in a realm he calls the "amodern"; which he
characterises "like the reflexive postmodernism we already recognize,
accepts the failure of modernist ends (for instance, the resolution of
gender, class, and ethnic conflicts and the concomitant spiritual
unification of society) and means (for instance, the regeneration of myth
as a centering structure), without taking the additional step of
homogenizing all remaining difference into some version of Ferdinand de
Saussure's negatively defined linguisitc paradigm. In other words, from an
amodern point of view the disavowal of Francois Lyotard's or Jean
Beaudrillard's postmodernism is not adequate, since that disavowal remains
complicit with capital because it offers no way out of the system of
domination that constitutes the present social order" (pg 2).
Murphy postulates that perhaps part of the reason Burroughs hasn't been
firmly fixed in the canon is that he evades easy categorization. This
seems to make some sense, since even the introduction to the Burroughs
passage in The Norton Anthology of *Postmodern* American Fiction places
him in neither the modern or postmodern traditions, but on his own in a
temporal nether region between them.
So, it looks like some heavy sledding, but I'm going to buckle down and
enjoy the ride. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone with a serious distaste
for Theory of the french variety. Like Burroughs himself, Murphy seems
unwilling to acknowledge the genre based differences between high art and
low culture, or literature and philosophy, and has made it his project to
let Burroughs play on the same field as the likes of Deleuze-Guattari,
Baudrillard, Sartre, and Adorno.
This seems to fill a gap in Burroughs criticism-- batting around his ideas
and formulations with the big-T theory writers. Remember that Jennie Skerl
explicitly avoided this in her "William Burroughs", because of the genre
boundaries between fiction and post-structural theory.
Anyway, that's my preview. I'll be sure to elaborate once I've actually
read the book beyond the Introduction.
Cheers,
Neil
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:45:39 +0100
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: (FWD) JACK BLUTARSKY
In-Reply-To: <a65a8e1e.349eee58@aol.com>
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Jack Blutharski h una figura fondamentale nella beat generation. Nacque nel
1941 a Davenport. Suo padre aveva un carattere piuttosto autoritario e, tra
i 9 e i 16 anni, il giovane Jack finl 5 volte in ospedale per le botte
ricevute. Quando arrivr a 17 anni, in ospedale ci finl il padre, con una
coltellata tra le costole.
Per fuggire alla polizia, Jack Blutharski si nascose in California dove
trovr lavoro come cameriere all'Angel's pub. Era la mitica birreria
frequentata da Jack Kerouac, Gregory Corso, Timothy Leary, Bill
Ciceruacchio, il cane Dog e Fernanda Pivano.
Fu Blutharski a portare per la prima volta Jack Kerouac sulle scogliere di
Big Sur e fu lui a suggerirgli di fare un viaggetto con gli amici perchi
non lo vedeva molto in forma.
Fu sempre Jack Blutharski che una sera, mentre portava le birre al tavolo,
chiese ad Allen Ginsberg "Perchi le menti migliori della nostra generazione
stanno qui a bere come spugne?".
Una notte in cui Fernanda Pivano piangeva perchi non sapeva cosa fare nella
vita, fu Jack Blutharski a suggerirle di fare qualche traduzione
dall'inglese all'italiano per sbarcare il lunario.
Come ha scritto di recente Loren Fielding sul New Yorker, "Senza Jack
Blutharski forse non ci sarebbe stato qualcosa chiamato beat generation".
Ma il suo contributo al movimento non si ferma qui. Una recente ricerca
storiografica ha accertato che fu Jack Blutharski a presentare domanda al
Sindaco di Woodstock per un concertino country all'aperto. Poi scesero in
pista quelli delle case discografiche e si sa com'h andata a finire. Dieci
anni dopo Jack Blutharski incontrr un vecchio amico, Little Fred, un
chitarrista scadente che aveva messo la testa a posto e faceva l'agente di
cambio. Tracannarono una dozzina di birre e parlarono dei vecchi tempi,
quando Jack Blutharski disse "vestito cosl mi sembri yuppy". Era solo una
parola inventata da un ubriaco ma nel tavolo di fianco c'era una
giornalista di Vanity Fair. Quella sera nacquero gli anni Ottanta.
Il seguito h noto. Stufo di creare tendenze socio-letterarie, Jack
Blutharski ha finito per fondare una agenzia di comunicazione in Italia.
L'ha chiamata ExNovo. Dice che promette bene.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:34:29 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Guy Debord is Really Dead From: anonymous@nowhere.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
The abuse of the epithet "situationist" and of the meaningless term.
by Luther Blissett Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:33:37 +0100 (MEZ)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- Butch, whose motorcycle is this?
- It's a chopper.
- Whose chopper is this?
- Zed's.
- Who's Zed?
- Zed's dead, baby... Zed's dead.
Quentin Tarantino, 1994
The end with the last fireworks,
just as a New Years' Eve in Naples, and h
ere as well - when the booze has gone - d
ead and wounded are counted up and people
realize that the 1st of January is not dif
ferent from December 31st, that there has
been no catharsis, no palingenetic entranc
e in a new age.
Trash cultu
re is unsophisticated popular culture. It
obviously is coarse and inconsistent, ther
eby it has to be buried under tons of "goo
d taste". The middle class is as trashy as
the working class, but the latter is not
ashamed of it, while the former wants to h
ide the trash, poses as being thoroughbred
and becomes kitsch. The characteristics o
f 'proletarian' Trash culture are unintent
ional genre cross-fertilisation, incongrui
ty, aesthetical maximalism and emulative s
yndrome.
In southern Italy, especially in Naples, t
he New Year's Day culminates with destruct
ion of any old house furniture, which is t
hrown down from the balcony. In addition t
o this, the midnight hour is saluted by a
real guerrilla of fireworks, petards and f
irecrackers. Some are found wounded or dea
d. This clearly is a pagan cathartic feast
which Christianity took good care not to
suppress.
Some references can be fo
und in: Richard Neville, Play Power, Jonat
han Cape, London 1970, republished by Pala
din, London 1971.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:34:08 EST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Aeronwytru <Aeronwytru@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: william s burroughs: wising up the marks
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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what's the book about that it's such a hot item?
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:20:18 -0500
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Richard Wallner <rwallner@CAPACCESS.ORG>
Subject: Re: (FWD) JACK BLUTARSKY
Comments: To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971223224539.0068d0ec@pop.gpnet.it>
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This sounds interesting...can someone translate this?
On Tue, 23 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> Jack Blutharski h una figura fondamentale nella beat generation. Nacque nel
> 1941 a Davenport. Suo padre aveva un carattere piuttosto autoritario e, tra
> i 9 e i 16 anni, il giovane Jack finl 5 volte in ospedale per le botte
> ricevute. Quando arrivr a 17 anni, in ospedale ci finl il padre, con una
> coltellata tra le costole.
> Per fuggire alla polizia, Jack Blutharski si nascose in California dove
> trovr lavoro come cameriere all'Angel's pub. Era la mitica birreria
> frequentata da Jack Kerouac, Gregory Corso, Timothy Leary, Bill
> Ciceruacchio, il cane Dog e Fernanda Pivano.
> Fu Blutharski a portare per la prima volta Jack Kerouac sulle scogliere di
> Big Sur e fu lui a suggerirgli di fare un viaggetto con gli amici perchi
> non lo vedeva molto in forma.
> Fu sempre Jack Blutharski che una sera, mentre portava le birre al tavolo,
> chiese ad Allen Ginsberg "Perchi le menti migliori della nostra generazione
> stanno qui a bere come spugne?".
> Una notte in cui Fernanda Pivano piangeva perchi non sapeva cosa fare nella
> vita, fu Jack Blutharski a suggerirle di fare qualche traduzione
> dall'inglese all'italiano per sbarcare il lunario.
> Come ha scritto di recente Loren Fielding sul New Yorker, "Senza Jack
> Blutharski forse non ci sarebbe stato qualcosa chiamato beat generation".
> Ma il suo contributo al movimento non si ferma qui. Una recente ricerca
> storiografica ha accertato che fu Jack Blutharski a presentare domanda al
> Sindaco di Woodstock per un concertino country all'aperto. Poi scesero in
> pista quelli delle case discografiche e si sa com'h andata a finire. Dieci
> anni dopo Jack Blutharski incontrr un vecchio amico, Little Fred, un
> chitarrista scadente che aveva messo la testa a posto e faceva l'agente di
> cambio. Tracannarono una dozzina di birre e parlarono dei vecchi tempi,
> quando Jack Blutharski disse "vestito cosl mi sembri yuppy". Era solo una
> parola inventata da un ubriaco ma nel tavolo di fianco c'era una
> giornalista di Vanity Fair. Quella sera nacquero gli anni Ottanta.
> Il seguito h noto. Stufo di creare tendenze socio-letterarie, Jack
> Blutharski ha finito per fondare una agenzia di comunicazione in Italia.
> L'ha chiamata ExNovo. Dice che promette bene.
>
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:29:23 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Glenn Cooper <coopergw@MPX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Cooper cut up
In-Reply-To: <001501bd0f6e$c0ba5ca0$3969e2cf@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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aAt 01:48 23/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Glenn,
>
> Tll me more of this program you have for producing your cut-ups. My
>writing has become a bit stale and I've been in search of a new method of
>thought stimulation, if I can just feed in a few pieces I'm working on see
>what comes up, well, hey, maybe I'll finally start to get into Burroughs (I
>haven't managed to get myself hooked him yet).
>
>Best to all, and merry christmas,
>
>Bruce
>
It's called "Babble". Not sure if it's still commercially available. I'd
copy it for you, but I can't. It won't copy. Or at least I'm incapable of
copying it.
You mean you *haven't* read WSB??? Amazing! :)
Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 21:40:20 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Paul A. Maher Jr." <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>
Subject: TKQ Cover of the Month updated!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi folks! I have updated the Kerouac Quarterly Cover of the Month for the
New Year. Also, an update on Douglas Brinkley's New Yorker article on the
Kerouac journals. Go to:
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/upstartcrow/KerouacQuarterly.html
Thanks and Happy Holidays!
Paul. . .
"We cannot well do without our sins; they are the highway to our virtues."
Henry David Thoreau
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:43:59 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: (FWD) JACK BLUTARSKY
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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can that many people on this list read this particular foreign language?
or am i the only ignorant one here?
;o)
brian
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 00:47:55 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: (FWD) JACK BLUTARSKY
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Kindlesan wrote:
>
> can that many people on this list read this particular foreign language?
>
> or am i the only ignorant one here?
>
> ;o)
>
> brian
oh brian, don't get your tweeter in a wringer, if they kept the list to
only that which i understood you would be bored. don't be provicial,
beg for translations. rinaldo is italian , his heart must be heard too.
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:56:27 +0000
Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Cooper cut up
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Isn't there a "cut up machine" at one of the literary sites. I remember mention
of it probably a year ago on Beat-L--maybe Big Table? One of the WSB experts
would know it.
James
Glenn Cooper wrote:
> aAt 01:48 23/12/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Glenn,
> >
> > Tll me more of this program you have for producing your cut-ups. My
> >writing has become a bit stale and I've been in search of a new method of
> >thought stimulation, if I can just feed in a few pieces I'm working on see
> >what comes up, well, hey, maybe I'll finally start to get into Burroughs (I
> >haven't managed to get myself hooked him yet).
> >
> >Best to all, and merry christmas,
> >
> >Bruce
> >
> It's called "Babble". Not sure if it's still commercially available. I'd
> copy it for you, but I can't. It won't copy. Or at least I'm incapable of
> copying it.
>
> You mean you *haven't* read WSB??? Amazing! :)
>
> Glenn C.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:04:06 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: ()
In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971223025612.006a0464@pop.pipeline.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
you are sleeping
in the blanket
name
embroidered
all around
the old newspapers
all around
old schoolday photos
---
rinaldo
24thdec97
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:25:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: (FWD) JACK BLUTARSKY
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-24 01:53:14 EST, you write:
<< oh brian, don't get your tweeter in a wringer, if they kept the list to
only that which i understood you would be bored. don't be provicial,
beg for translations. rinaldo is italian , his heart must be heard too. >>
;o) i know....i know.....i'm glad he does it.......just makes me all the more
aware of my limitations.....perhaps if he does it enough, i can get a free
education in the italien language
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:51:59 PST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: i'm back and ready to rock and roll
Content-Type: text/plain
hi all:
i finally made to the list again! i've been trying for a week now, my
isp fouled things upl
just to let you know that yesterday was my first day of being immersed
in the poetry community of san francisco, spent a few hours with a
truely remarkable poet and reader of poetry, qr hand, and had an offer
from the booking agent for the poetry scene at one coffee house- to be
my agent
ha!
it is a strange and beautiful world my friends
holiday greetings
mc
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:02:57 PST
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Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: (FWD) JACK BLUTARSKY
Content-Type: text/plain
hey patricia! good to 'hear' your voice again. your balanced view and
common sense are always refreshing.
mc
>From owner-beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu Tue Dec 23 22:51:48 1997
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>Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
>From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
>Subject: Re: (FWD) JACK BLUTARSKY
>To: BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
>
>Kindlesan wrote:
>>
>> can that many people on this list read this particular foreign
language?
>>
>> or am i the only ignorant one here?
>>
>> ;o)
>>
>> brian
>oh brian, don't get your tweeter in a wringer, if they kept the list
to
>only that which i understood you would be bored. don't be provicial,
>beg for translations. rinaldo is italian , his heart must be heard
too.
>patricia
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:06:05 PST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: marie countyman <mcountyman@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: ()
Content-Type: text/plain
rinaldo, this is beautiful/ made me think back to trip across country to
CA.
mc
>
>
> you are sleeping
>
> in the blanket
> name
> embroidered
>
> all around
> the old newspapers
> all around
> old schoolday photos
>
>
>---
>rinaldo
>24thdec97
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 13:17:53 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Sean Young <syoung@DSW.COM>
Subject: New York/St. Marks
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Hi everyone,
Just wanted to see if anyone will be in New York around New Years. I
am heading there from poor old Utah and I thought it would be cool to
hook up with some Beat-l'ers in New York. Anyone going to the marathon
reading at St. Marks on New Years? It'd be great to meet some of you.
I'll be there from the 31st to Jan. 5th.
Have a good holiday.
Peace to you all.
Sean D. Young
syoung@dsw.com
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:16:19 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: New Ginsberg Poem?
Mime-Version: 1.0
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beat-lers
saw this on rec.books.beatgeneration does any one out there know anymore
abt this?
thanks
derek
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 24 Dec 1997 13:47:57 GMT
For a new and supposedly unpublished poem by Alan Ginsberg titled "Words",
check out the literary journal Rosebud. Alan said that he found it in a book
he hadn't read since 1969.
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:58:12 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>
Subject: Re: New York/St. Marks
In-Reply-To: <4A16E160.1326@dsw.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
just wandering,
what's hapning at St. Mark's on new years? and how do you get there?
happy holidays all,
eric
On Wed, 24 Dec 1997, Sean Young wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Just wanted to see if anyone will be in New York around New Years. I
> am heading there from poor old Utah and I thought it would be cool to
> hook up with some Beat-l'ers in New York. Anyone going to the marathon
> reading at St. Marks on New Years? It'd be great to meet some of you.
> I'll be there from the 31st to Jan. 5th.
> Have a good holiday.
>
> Peace to you all.
>
> Sean D. Young
> syoung@dsw.com
>
=========================================================================
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:09:14 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: norlons
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Is there some sort of art show in new orleans in February of Williams
stuff. Does anyone know about this?
patricia
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 01:38:37 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: GYENIS <GYENIS@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: we break from the news...
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Hippo Hollydays
and
A Joyous New Ewe two
peace
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 02:23:35 -0600
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>
Subject: Re: we break from the news...
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Patricia writes, ho ho it 2 am
and do you know if your furnace goes.
counting your blessings because its too cold not too.
GYENIS wrote:
>
> Hippo Hollydays
> and
> A Joyous New Ewe two
>
> peace
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 09:53:10 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: we break from the news...
In-Reply-To: <34A21807.6E53@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Patricia says:
>Patricia writes, ho ho it 2 am
>and do you know if your furnace goes.
>counting your blessings because its too cold not too.
>
>GYENIS wrote:
>>
>> Hippo Hollydays
>> and
>> A Joyous New Ewe two
>>
>> peace
>
>
... & Rinaldo adds a comment quoting a
(singsong) by Brion Gysin
Lock them out and bar the door
Lock them out for e-v-ermore
Nook and cranny window door
Seal them out for e-v-e-rmore
Lock them out and block the rout
Shut them scan them flack them out.
Lock is mine and doors is mine
Three times three to make up nine...
Curse go back curse go back
Back with double pain and lack
Curse go back--back.
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 10:04:46 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: CIRCULATION <breithau@KENYON.EDU>
Subject: Re: we break from the news...
Hippo Holidays as they burn in their tanks!
=========================================================================
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 13:35:08 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: jo grant <jgrant@BOOKZEN.COM>
Subject: Re: WSB on radio
In-Reply-To: <34A1CE5A.63E4@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I was stopped in my tracks the other day when I heard WSB doing a
promotional spot for Madison, Wisconsin radio station WORT-FM.
WORT-FM is the most listened-too radio station in Madison--a true community
radio station that is not part of the NPR chain. It's the kind of a station
that I can imagine him promoting.
I'll get some info on the history of the "spot" and pass it alone.
j grant
HELP RECOVER THE MEMORY BABE ARCHIVES
Details on-line at
http://www.bookzen.com
625,506 Visitors 07-01-96 to 11-28-97
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:25:08 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: NICO 88 <NICO88@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: New York/St. Marks
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-24 22:15:10 EST, you write:
> just wandering,
>
> what's hapning at St. Mark's on new years? and how do you get there?
>
Every new years day at St.Marks Church (E.10th street and 2nd Ave) they have a
marathon poetry reading that lasts from about 4 to midnight. Poets,
musicians, "performance artists" et cetera. Its a great establishment in the
NY neo-cultural scene, but this year, ah, will be the first without Allen.
sigh.
for any of you who are thinking of going, i highly recommend the experience.
(except when you sit there for 6 hours waiting for Jim Carroll and then
someone [allen ginsberg] tells you he's not coming.)
--Ginny.
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:39:52 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: about Bukowski
Comments: To: josep@icmab.es
In-Reply-To: <34A21807.6E53@sunflower.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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--------- original message ---------------------------------
I just wanna comment two things about Hank :
1. I think Charles Bukowski (and his literature staff)
was more appreciated here in Europe than in USA. The day
Bukowski died, most of the spanish newpapers (I am Spanish)
dedicated him a page or a page and a half, and that is very
much for a writer, here in Spain. some bookstores dedicated
a special place for its books and a theatre play based in
his texts was performed. I think that this is a nice tribute
to Hank.
2. About Bukowski books I miss two tittles :
"Run with the hunted" (1993) and
"Quello che mi importa e grattarmi sotto le ascelle" (1982).
The former collection of texts, shorts stories and
poems describing Hanks live. The latter an interview
with Fernanda Pivano (an italian journalist) that
could be translated as the most I like is to scrabe
my armhole. Did you hear about this two books?.
Anyway, it has been a great experience for me
to visit your Bukowski page.
thanks for your attention. Josep Llacay
--------- end original message ------------------------------
Josep, buon giorno,
circa Bukowski's mentioned book
"Quello che mi importa e grattarmi sotto le ascelle" (1982)
is fairly easy to find in an italian bookstore as many of
others bukowski works-- in Italia the bukowski fortune is great
as u mentioned in Spagna (yr country), the bookshelves are
always filled with a lot of buk works-- by the way: ho notato
che hai citato il libro con il titolo in italiano, per caso
parli o scrivi in italiano? -- concerning Fernanda Pivano i
agree her devotion to american writers and performers is a
great treasure -- if u read the "Album Americano" (1996) she
writes [Neanche uno della mia trentina di libri e' uscito
in America e non so le volte che qualche autore italiano mi
ha aggredito chiedendomi perche' lavoravo al ''servizio
dell'America'' e non facevo tradurre nessun italiano-- La mia
felicita' comincia quando un autore sconosciuto in Italia
e considerato impubblicabile mi telefona e mi dice:"You made
me famous"][none of my thirty books was translated in america,
but in italy a lot of writer charge me attendance to America.
i'm happy when an unknown writer call "you made me famous"
because of my works arent published in my own country]-- at
the moment Pivano is 80 years old and fluke the Pivano archive
'll be collected by Benetton Group otherwise the papers was
assigned to be dispersed-- the Pivano interview to Charles
Bukowski is truly a wonder "Di solito staccava una rosa da
una delle siepi di fronte alla sua porta d'ingresso e me la
offriva baciandomi la mano come un cavaliere vittoriano dell'
Ottocento. Ebbi la debolezza di raccontare questo particolare
che mi faceva tanta tenerezza a un giornalista un po' sbrigativo
che riusci' ad avvicinarlo e gli chiese con ironia se era vero
o se me lo ero inventato. Pare che Bukowski l'abbia guardato
con uno di quei soffocanti risentimenti, insaccando il collo
come King kong, come fceva quando gli giravano le scatole, e
gli abbia risposto:"Certo che e' vero. Perche'? Viene qui una
gentile signora che ha passato la vita in Italia per aiutare
noi scrittori americani e cosa volevate che le facessi, che la
stuprassi?"--
any other info or help u can email cc: rinaldo@gpnet.it
-- i've fwd yr letter to the BEAT-L: Beat Generation List
cari saluti da
Rinaldo.
Venezia-Mestre,Italia
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:37:52 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Beats in NYC
There's a nice article on the Beats in New York City in the Weekend section of
today's New York Times by Ann Douglas. You'll notice a small error on page E49
: Ted Morgan rather than Bill Morgan is cited as the author of "The Beat Gener
ation in New York: A Walking Tour." Remember the days when national newspapers
and magazines hired fact checkers to catch such boo boos?"
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:46:02 -0800
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Michael R. Brown" <foosi@GLOBAL.CALIFORNIA.COM>
Subject: Re: about Bukowski
Comments: To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971226103952.00685b70@pop.gpnet.it>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 26 Dec 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:
> Josep, buon giorno,
> circa Bukowski's mentioned book
Together with alt.books.bukowski, you might find the private Bukowski
e-mail discussion list owned by Lisa Rabey of interest. Email
lisa@simunye.com for subscription info.
Lisa's web page has Buk links, too: http://www.simunye.com.
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Michael R. Brown foosi@global.california.com
+ -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- + -- +
Find out the laws then do what you will.
- Susannah Thompson
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:06:46 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: 1998 filling station INVERTIGO chapbook / calender
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
beat-l'ers
i have a 4 copies of filling station's (filling station is a local
literary magazine, which has been around for 3 years is one of the
best and most original of the calgary scene...) chapbook-calender for
sale,which i highly recommend as it really gives an introduction to some
of the more establishe poets around calgary and is presented in a very
unique and cool style. im offering copies for $5 US each (a steal really)
including postage,
please let me know if you are interested in picking up a copy and i can
mail it out to you asap...
INVERTIGO: 1998 filling station chapbook-calender features the work of:
jacqueline turner
peter j. graham
geoff mackenzine
jonathan wilcke
ian samuels
russ rickey
dave sidjak
rajinderpal. s. pal
jb hohm
asia
shelley boettcher
vivian hansen
tjsnow
yrs in holiday hoho.
derek
******************************************************************
Derek Beaulieu
House Press (limited ed. chapbooks, prints, etc)
#502-728 3rd Ave NW
Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2N 0J1
ph. (403)270-4440, fax. 270-9357
"remove literary, grammatical & syntactical inhibition" -Jack Kerouac
******************************************************************
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:16:01 -0700
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>
Organization: Calgary Free-Net
Subject: Levertov's death (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
beat-lers
i thought i would pass along this bad news, which i found posted to
alt.books.beatgeneration.
yrs
derek
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:05:44 +0000
From: Tom Fallon <aopoetry@exploremaine.com>
Subject: Levertov's death
I would like to announce to alt.zines the death of Denise Levertov,
acclaimed international poet and political activist.
FMI see <http://www.exploremaine.com?~aopoetry/fallon/news.html>
Tom Fallon
Editor
Apples & Oranges, Oranges & Apples
aopoetry@yahoo.com
aopoetry@exploremaine.com
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:30:53 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Waterrow <Waterrow@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: about Bukowski
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 97-12-26 04:54:38 EST, you write:
<< 2. About Bukowski books I miss two tittles :
"Run with the hunted" (1993) and
"Quello che mi importa e grattarmi sotto le ascelle" (1982).
The former collection of texts, shorts stories and
poems describing Hanks live. The latter an interview
with Fernanda Pivano (an italian journalist) that
could be translated as the most I like is to scrabe
my armhole. Did you hear about this two books?.
>>
We have both of these books in stock...if you'd like more information, email
me...
Thanks -
Jeffrey
Water Row Books
=========================================================================
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:58:02 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>
Subject: Re: Levertov's death (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.93.971226111445.36916C-100000@srv1.freenet.calg
ary.ab.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 11.16 26/12/97 -0700, derek wrote:
>beat-lers
>i thought i would pass along this bad news, which i found posted to
>alt.books.beatgeneration.
>yrs
>derek
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 14:05:44 +0000
>From: Tom Fallon <aopoetry@exploremaine.com>
>Subject: Levertov's death
>I would like to announce to alt.zines the death of Denise Levertov,
>acclaimed international poet and political activist.
>FMI see <http://www.exploremaine.com?~aopoetry/fallon/news.html>
>Tom Fallon
>Editor
>Apples & Oranges, Oranges & Apples
>aopoetry@yahoo.com
>aopoetry@exploremaine.com
>
ANOTHER SPRING by DENISE LEVERTOV
In the gold mouth of a flower
the black smell of spring earth.
No more skulls on our desks
but the pervasive
testing of death--as if we had need
of new ways of dying? No,
we have no need
of new ways of dying.
Death in us goes on
testing the wild
chance of living,
as Adam chanced it.
Golden-mouth, the tilted smile
of the moon westering
is at the black window,
Calavera of Spring.
Do you mistake me?
I am speaking of living
of miving from one moment into
the next, and into the
one after, breathing
death in the spring air, knowing
air also means
music to sing to.
=========================================================================
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:07:05 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Johnny Space-Boy <johnny-space-boy@USA.NET>
Subject: the beat
Comments: cc: j_space_boy@hotmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
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------------NetAddress--BLAFWE2544
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I have been searching along time to find a group such as this one. I really hope
this is a group of people that are mad about life, cause that's all I want to
do is talk about the sad beauty of life. Talking about authors and poets,
that's great, but my real need is to talk to these mad people about being truly
alive and finding enlightenment. The ascension of being. I am still starting
out with all of this and if there is a qualification to being a beatnik I am
sure I haven't met it, but I just think it would be a crime if there wasn't a
place like this group for people such as myself, crazy about living, to have a
creative outlet to share their views and to learn from peers. I cannot wait for
a response.
------------NetAddress--BLAFWE2544
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:08:12 -0500
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From: Johnny Space-Boy <johnny-space-boy@USA.NET>
Subject: Fwd: [too much coffee]
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From: "johnny. Space-boy" <j_space_boy@hotmail.com>
To: johnny-space-boy@usa.net
Subject: too much coffee
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:57:21 PST
----Original Message Follows----
So here I am again pondering, probably too much coffee is the catalist
to all of my personal insight on life, well you don't have to read it if
you don't want to. I am sitting here doing my psych homework and ran
into the ideas of this man called Carl Rogers. A humanist pyschologist,
he feels that to be a fully functional person we all need unconditional
positive regard, that is love and support without strings (conditions)
attached. I think we all know this it just takes some one who thinks
alot to write it down. I believe the wanting for this unconditional
positive regard is a major motivating factor on how people think, feel,
and act. I don't know I think it would be cool. I guess people have
problems with treating each other like that, It seems like a pretty hard
thing to do, he goes on to say that if you don't have a relationship
like this it causes incongruencies in your persona (makes you neurotic,
bitter, unhappy, shitty.) Maybe huh?
I think this all ties into the feeling of being alive that I love to
talk about. I like to call the way you feel and live while you are in
this state "Raw emotions". Being real to yourself, but this is very
dangerous because it opens you up. Makes you vulnerable. What do you
think? Should I stop drinking so much coffee, stop reading into things.
Experiences like the ones I have been having lately makes you stop and
think.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:08:14 -0500
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From: Johnny Space-Boy <johnny-space-boy@USA.NET>
Subject: Fwd: [who is johnny space-boy? ]
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From: "johnny. Space-boy" <j_space_boy@hotmail.com>
To: johnny-space-boy@usa.net
Subject: who is johnny space-boy?
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="====================987654321_0==_"
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:54:25 PST
--====================987654321_0==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I am a simple bhikku searching for all the answers a can find. Roaming
the world now I am in Bavaria, Germany.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--====================987654321_0==_
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`
end
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:10:19 -0500
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From: Johnny Space-Boy <johnny-space-boy@USA.NET>
Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: Re: spicy beef burritos]
Comments: To: j_space_boy@hotmail.com
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id mx04-BLAkzq0714; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:51:16 -0600 (MST)
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From: "johnny. Space-boy" <j_space_boy@hotmail.com>
To: johnny-space-boy@usa.net
Subject: Fwd: Re: spicy beef burritos
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:51:20 PST
----Original Message Follows----
Humans are biologically creatures which have a system made up of
organs that
find nutrients and chemicals from the enviroment around them. Certain
congenital defects hinder certian individuals ability to gain access to
these
nutrients(ie. A person born with a cardio or muscoskeletal disfunction
would
be handicapped in life, whereas a person born into the world in good
health
has an advantage in obtaining items around him/her). On that note, a
person
born looking a certain way also may have greater ease in gaining what
they
want, and this is where the social/economic situations help determine
the path
and shape of one's life. People are born with what they have, then,
based on
their personal strengths, or most likely, weaknesses, determine which
road to
walk down or fall down. Talk later.
Merry Christmas,
Jason.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:14:34 -0500
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Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: spicy beef burritos]
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From: "johnny. Space-boy" <j_space_boy@hotmail.com>
To: johnny-space-boy@usa.net
Subject: Fwd: spicy beef burritos
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:48:29 PST
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I don't know what it is about these spicy beef burritos, but I seem to
have these big revelations when I eat them. As I was munching down this
Hispanic Culinary Microwavable treat I pondered the expression "Life is
what you make it". Which for the most part I agree, but at the same time
I believe you are what life makes you. There are events that occur that
are beyond you control and as you deal with the situation you grow as a
person. I guess it goes back to the old envirement vs. heridity
arguement. Are you a mass of chemical reactions, chromosomes, and
nuerotransmitters? That's a cold fact I can't bring myself to believe,
of course that is a part of who we are like it or not, but I like to
think that we play at least a small part in the shaping of our
personalities. I would have to describe the human animal as mystical,
trying not to sound to corny, a mixture of all these chemicals firing
and flowing and an unexplainable drive and consciousness.
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 06:16:42 -0500
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From: Johnny Space-Boy <johnny-space-boy@USA.NET>
Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: ]
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From: "johnny. Space-boy" <j_space_boy@hotmail.com>
To: johnny-space-boy@usa.net
Subject: Fwd:
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:46:36 PST
As I sit here munching on a spicy beef burrito, I am pondering what it
all means. What does it all mean? Of course you understand the basics of
nuclear fussion right? Hydrogen burns into helium, simple enough but did
you know when a star runs out of hydrogen to burn to keep the fussion
going it burns the helium. It turns to carbon, that what we are made out
of man, isn't that a trip? We are all just pieces of stars burning in
our own way. Because if you're not burning, in some way or another,
burning to be alive, burning to love, burning to live, man you are dead.
Life sucks alot, but without the bad there would be no good or some
cliche bullshit, you know what I'm talking about. I guess it all goes
back to what Jack said, nespa?
"The only people for me are the people who are mad to live, mad to love,
mad to be
saved....people who burn, burn, burn like fabulous yellow roman
candles."
That's life man, don't ever catch yourself saying those common place
things. Get out there and be alive. Alive. That word has a meaning most
don't relize. Relize it man.
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:32:52 -0500
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>
Subject: Kerouac pieces?
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Just wondering if anyone can tell me where these
two Kerouac pieces come from:
"Not Long Ago Joy Abounded at Christmas"
"Home at Christmas"
I've tried looking through my Kerouac collection
(minus 3-4 that a friend borrowed) and can't
seem to place these. Are these from _Lonesome
Traveller_ (one of the missing books from my
shelf)?
Thanx,
Mike
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:10:29 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Jjdorfner <Jjdorfner@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: Kerouac pieces?
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mike...
the two pieces that you were asking about are included in Kerouac's "Good
Blonde & Others"...
published by Grey Fox Press.
john j dorfner
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:41:36 EST
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [too much coffee]
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In a message dated 97-12-27 06:08:55 EST, you write:
Carl Rogers. A humanist pyschologist
~~~perhaps his ideas are just a little bit idealistic
It seems like a pretty hard thing to do
~~~perhaps because we are incapable of it
he goes on to say that if you don't have a relationship like this it causes
incongruencies in your persona (makes you neurotic, bitter, unhappy, shitty.)
~~~i think this is a tad bit overgeneralistic.....and besides, the people who
are unhappy, perhaps they would not be this way if not for the rest of society
around them....that is to say, they are only unhappy because love and
relationships are constants in this society, among others, and having this
"left out" feeling causes them to have a sense of brooding depression and
loneliness they "may or may not" otherwise feel if love and relationships did
not play such a huge, idealistic or otherwise, role in our society...
I like to call the way you feel and live while you are in this state "Raw
emotions". Being real to yourself, but this is very dangerous because it opens
you up.
~~~being real to yourself, is something, it would appear, that dean moriarty
did in OTR........he opened himself up, and often times was chastised for it,
even though his friends were the ones who appeared to get fed up with his
lifestyle......even at the same time being attracted to him......i don't think
opening yourself up would necessarily give way to unconditional love and
attachment in a relationship.....perhaps if we were all to give in to our
innermost desires, this world would be even more fucked up than it is
already.....and this can happen in a positive or negative
way.......essentially we are all the same, but then again, we are not...
Brian
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:44:20 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [who is johnny space-boy? ]
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"I am a simple bhikku searching for all the answers a can find. Roaming
the world now I am in Bavaria, Germany."
why did you have to have this file in an attachment?
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:47:15 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: spicy beef burritos]
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In a message dated 97-12-27 06:10:31 EST, you write:
<< People are born with what they have, then, based on their personal
strengths, or most likely, weaknesses, determine which road to walk down or
fall down >>
don't these same socio/economic/environmental situations determine then, what
personal strengths and weaknesses these same people have? do we have anything
which we can truly call our own? are people themselves or just constructs? a
tabula rasa, so to speak?
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:49:42 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: spicy beef burritos]
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In a message dated 97-12-27 06:14:28 EST, you write:
<< I would have to describe the human animal as mystical,
trying not to sound to corny, a mixture of all these chemicals firing
and flowing and an unexplainable drive and consciousness.
>>
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:50:20 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: spicy beef burritos]
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 97-12-27 06:14:28 EST, you write:
<< I would have to describe the human animal as mystical,
trying not to sound to corny, a mixture of all these chemicals firing
and flowing and an unexplainable drive and consciousness. >>
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:54:28 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: I apologize
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for some off reason, my comp was messing up my email system......so if
everyone receives something like five replies to the same email without a
response, it's because no matter what button i pushed, the letter would
automatically be sent....tis a frustrating thing, really........sorry for any
inconvenience
In a message dated 97-12-27 06:14:28 EST, you write:
<< I would have to describe the human animal as mystical, trying not to sound
to corny, a mixture of all these chemicals firing and flowing and an
unexplainable drive and consciousness. >>
perhaps it is something explainable.......who are we to suggest we know all
the answers concerning our drives and consciousnesses? and howso do you mean
mystical.........explicate
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 12:58:45 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kindlesan <Kindlesan@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: ]
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In a message dated 97-12-27 06:16:57 EST, you write:
<< Relize it man >>
i am sorry to be pointing this out, but spelling is one of my pet
peeves......it is "realize" and "a lot" and "fusion".......they may have been
your excitement building up so much you could not contain your words in a form
to match your thoughts....but i just had to point that out.....i
apologize....nothing intended by it...
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:19:24 EST
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
From: Kirouack <Kirouack@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: ]
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hey...as Mark Twain said..."never trust a man that can't spell a word 3
ways..."
spelling is for editors...not for writers.
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Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:25:43 +0100
Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
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From: Florian Cramer <cantsin@ZEDAT.FU-BERLIN.DE>
Subject: Permutation poems
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Dear all,
my apologies if my request sounds naive, since I am not really familiar
with the beat poetry tradition. I am in the midst of writing an M.A.
thesis about combinatory poetry from the 17th to the 20th century, and it
took me long until I stumbled over information that Brion Gysin wrote
"permutation poems" around 1960. This is highly interesting for me, since
it was the same time when Raymond Queneau wrote his permuting "100.000
Billion Poems" and when the information theorist Abraham A. Moles
published his "Manifesto of Permutation Art". You might also be interested
to hear that the "fold-in" method was prototyped in a novel by Marc
Saporta which appeared in the early 1960s. It seems like the mutual
influences on the development of combinatory/permutational literature in
early 1960s France (where I guess Gysin was living at that time) still
needs to be researched, in case I'm not telling you old stories here.
I took me quite long to find out about Gysin's "permutation poems" since
Gysin and Burroughs are not quite considered high cultural/canonical
writers in European academia, so that even such comprehensive accounts of
permutational poetry as Ulrich Ernst's "Permutation als Prinzip in der
Lyrik" ("Permutation as a principle in poetry", published in: Poetica,
no.24, 1992) don't mention Gysin's experiments.
Hence my question: Are Gysin's "permutation poems" published in books? Are
there any essays or commentaries about them? In the Web, I found
information that Gysin created these poems with the help of a computer;
however, the Web page didn't mention the source of this information, so
I'm a bit suspicious. Did Gysin make any statements about his
permutational poetry in interviews? ... It seems really difficult
researching this, since most of Gysin's books are small press and out of
print, and I guess that the majority of Gysin criticism has been published
in the underground press.
Any help in this matter is really appreciated!
Florian