>STROFSKY (Ginsberg) and his visions to utter distress.

>

>Ah hell its all just a bunch of shit anyway, why do you care?

>

>------------------------------

>

>End of BEAT-L Digest - 15 Sep 1995 to 16 Sep 1995

>*************************************************

>

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:12:10 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Terry Kattleman <Tkattleman@EWORLD.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@cmsa.berkeley.edu

 

Re JC Holmes, Go and others of his worth reading:  I found Go, while

essential Beat reading, obviously, quite tedious toward the end.  The

characters, without exception, were annoying the hell out of me. Maybe they

were supposed to, they lived in annoying times, but, for me, compelling

fiction this did not make.  Holmes' The Horn, on the other hand, a

fictionalized last day in the life of Lester Young, was magnificent,

brilliant. Brings Go to a dead stop in comparison, as far as I'm concerned.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:45:20 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject:      Rhythm

 

As I said earlier I still believe the most important part to Kerouac's

writing is in what he was trying to say, but I am not him.  And so my

interpretation does not matter, but rather his own interpretation as he

stated to Malcolm Cowley, the man who helped get Road published, and I

quote:

 

"I see now the whole Cathedral of Form which this is, and am so glad that I

self-taught myself (with some help from Messrs. Joyce & Faulkner) to write

SPONTANEOUS PROSE so that though the eventual LEGEND will run into millions

of words, they'll all be spontaneous and therefore pure and therefore

interesting and at the same time what rejoices me most:  RHYTHMIC--It's

prose answering the requirements mentioned by W.C. Williams, for natural

speech rhytmns and words--I'm not doing a pitch for [myself], [I don't]

need it anymore, [I] am walking around in ecstasy because [my] entire

life-work is beginning to shape up and [I] know that all of it (tho eventually

it will languish among the ruins) is holy and was a well done thing."

 

In his typical nature he had to use third person as not to appear vain, yeah

right, and so I changed the tenses.  Either way I think it is extremely clear

his opinion.

 

And as to the theory behind SUBTERRANEANS being all about rhythm I have another

letter that he wrote explaining that work:

 

"I only want to stress, however, that in making those "minor changes

throughout" we do not dare touch the rhythm of that prose and those

sentences; I assume they want to remove objectionable words, I will replace

them with words of similar sonic rhytmn"

 

                                        Kerouac's Letter to Sterling Lord

                                        Dated Sunday Oct. 7, 1956

 

by the way both these quotes are from ANN CHARTERS book __JACK KEROUAC:

SELECTED LETTERS__  and after having finished it I would suggest it to

anyone who wants to know about Kerouac in depth, before his success.

 

Nick Herren

nph002@acad.drake.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:16:49 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Typing

 

Did anyone watch the season premiere of "Silk Stalkings?"  They quoted

Truman Capote's infamous quip "That's not writing, it's typing."  They

thought, however, that it referred to Clifford Irving rather than

Kerouac.  Now what ever gave them that idea?  I also came upon a note in

a forthcoming book on the Beat Generation that quoted Samuel Beckett on

the Burroughs' cut-up method:  "That's not writing, it's plumbing."

Notes weren't included in my galleys.  Does anyone know where this

Beckett quote comes from?

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:38:50 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Ginsberg Kerouac Dreams

 

The current Whole Earth Review printed two dreams of Allen Ginsberg about

Jack Kerouac.  They are interesting to read.

 

Tim

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:12:49 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         the Literary Denim <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Holmes, Anything Worth Reading

 

Continuing  posts, which go something like this:

 

> By the way, has J.C.Holmes written anything that might be worth reading,

besides GO?

>                        Michael Heeg

 

>>The Horn, on the other hand, a fictionalized last day in the life of

Lester Young, was magnificent,

>>brilliant. Brings Go to a dead stop in comparison, as far as I'm concerned.

>>                      Terry Kattleman

_____________________________________

 

Holmes is, arguably, an overlooked and better essayist than novelist.

_GO_ was perhaps one of those collision of events, published at the right

time, among the right collection of friends.  Had literary history not

washed the way it did gracias JK and AG, GO may not have come forward.

 

As an essayist Holmes can, like Krim,  scour private sentiment and

experience, then lace the narrative with proportioned sprinklings of cosmic

and historical detail  to generalize as a condition of the times whatever in

personal circumstance he happens to be pondering.

 

Don't know if because  his essays came (most of them)  much later than _GO_,

for example, when he was older, more experienced, or whether he actually

found the essay a more comfortable form, but his essays seem less often

strained, better developed.  He can be as rhythmic as K.

 

Try _Nothing More to Declare_ (Deutsch, 1968) or _Gone in October_

(Limberlost, 1985).  His journal excepts read well, too (if you can find

them).  Darn good diarist.

 

 

                                                        \\|//

                                                       (o o)

----------------------- --------------oOO--(

)--OOo--------------------------------------

   vj@primenet.com            |          Accept loss forever.

   Tempe, AZ                     |

                                         |

Jack Kerouac

 -------------------------------------ooooO---Ooooo-------------------------

-------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:19:28 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re Whole Earth and Dreams

 

>Tim, can you send me the date and page numbers so I get a copy on interlibrary

>loan?

 

It is the current Whole Earth Review at the newstands now.

 

The dreams are short and cover less than one page of the magazine.

 

I read them in the store.

 

Maybe someone who subscribes or bought a copy can provide the date and

page numbers.

 

Tim

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:43:20 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

words shmurds is beauty....love !!!

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:39:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Joshua S. Miller" <DrBenwaye@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

amen! a typo is a typo ...get past your pettiness and try to fathom the work

instead of a superficial printing error.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:19:30 +0100

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         M D Fascione <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

Subject:      Help please

In-Reply-To:  <01HVB4T79FIE0052OU@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

 

Please send me the correct address to inform this list of a change of

address. Iwish to remain subscribed to this list.

 

MANY THANKS

 

Daniel

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:44:32 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Holmes, Anything Worth Reading

In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 18 Sep 1995 16:12:49 -0700 from <vj@PRIMENET.COM>

 

Both The Horn and Get Home Free are strong novels, more interesting than

go.  Holmes essays, published in a 3 volume set by the University of

Arkansas, are first rate.  His poems aren't bad either.  I wonder if

part of the reason Holmes is less known or less read is that he hasn't

had the flamboyant lives led by Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg & Cassady.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:37:50 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Help please

In-Reply-To:  Message of Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:19:30 +0100 from

              <m.d.fascione@CITY.AC.UK>

 

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:17:12 GMT

Reply-To:     Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

I liked Holmes' novel THE HORN.

=========================================================================

Date:         Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:21:03 GMT

Reply-To:     Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Big Sur

 

"The woods are full of wardens."

                              --JK, "The Vanishing American Hobo"

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:18:24 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@PRAIRIENET.ORG>

Comments: To: "P.G. Springer" <hloosn8@firefly.prairienet.org>

In-Reply-To:  <61373.311952076@RedwoodFN.org>

 

I'm interested in a discography of The Fugs.

Wasn't there a later album entitled "It Just Crawled Into My Hand, Honest"?

 

Your help appreciated.

 

Note new Tricycle magazine has interview with Ginsberg and an article,

Buddhism and the Beats.

 

p       gregory         springer

throw the cow over the fence some hay

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:18:41 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Tracey L. Milton" <milton_t@APOLLO.HP.COM>

Subject:      unabomber manifesto

 

Most decidedly not beat, but an EXTREMELY interesting

read. Printed in its entirety (33,000 words, I'm only about

a tenth of the way thru!) at:

 

http://pathfinder.com

 

enjoy

Tracey

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:04:38 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac, Friends and Cox

 

If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

 

I hope this sparks something interesting!!

 

Laur

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:06:34 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

 

>If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

>think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

>

>I hope this sparks something interesting!!

>

>Laur

 

 

I don't know what he would watch, but whatever he watched I don't think he

would pay much notice.  For example he watched TV when he was alive.  I

have heard that he was watching the Galloping Gourmet when he had his fatal

hemorrage.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:05:26 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

In-Reply-To:  <950921220436_25947123@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Laurie Syrek"

              at Sep 21, 95 10:04:38 pm

 

>

> If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

> think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

>

> I hope this sparks something interesting!!

 

 

christ...where did this come from.... i just spent the worst train ride

of my life sitting in a corner, cringing with pain...trying desperately

to read _the dharma bums_ but all i could hear was the incessant inanity

of a plastic woman across the aisle... she was beaming over her thursday

night television escapades... he lips never stopped moving... her voice

dominated every available space in that tuna can... i was beginning to

rant in my mind... please stop...please stop...

i stared at the tracks and thought of my geometry teacher...

"in euclidean geometry, parallel lines never intersect...but change this

statement... make it a postulate that parellel lines do intersect and you

no longer have euclidean geometry.."

i thought... a new perspective... a new reality... see the train tracks...

what if they converged?  who would be able to survive the change?

uuuugh.  it's over..it's gone.. please stop.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:12:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nicholas Herren <NPH002@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

In-Reply-To:  "Your message dated Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:05:26 -0500"

              <199509221305.JAA25988@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

 

>

>  If Jack Kerouac were alive, do you think he'd watch Seinfeld or Friends? I

> think he'd rail against both, but fantasize about Courtney Cox.

>

 

  If Jack were alive he would be DRUNK or STONED or HIGH and wouldnt care

one bit about Seinfeld or friends, but if he saw Courtney Cox in a bar or

a whorehouse or one of HIS friends illustrious parties, I am sure he would

eye her down and somehow have some fun.

 

>christ...where did this come from.... i just spent the worst train ride

 

  How could the train ride be so boring, were you not in the Hobo Section.

By the way if you just read __Dharma Bums__ and are wondering maybe who

Japhy Ryder really is, his name is GARY SNYDER and he did publish a book

of Han Shan poems.

 

As for the Euclian Geometry I feel sorry for you having to learn that kind

of high level math so you could torture yourself on trains.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:32:03 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

In-Reply-To:  <01HVKIWGZ5TQ00AH7D@ACAD.DRAKE.EDU> from "Nicholas Herren" at Sep

              22, 95 08:12:43 am

 

> Japhy Ryder really is, his name is GARY SNYDER and he did publish a book

> of Han Shan poems.

 

thank you.

 

> As for the Euclian Geometry I feel sorry for you having to learn that kind

> of high level math so you could torture yourself on trains.

 

 

then you did not understand...

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:34:27 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "David J. Tucker" <DJTUCKE@TEL1.ACCUSORT.COM>

Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc.

Subject:      Re: Kerouac, Friends and Cox

 

,or to be on a train with dreams of Moloch!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:41:27 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Dream film

 

Last night I was watching  _Rebel Without a Cause_  and was imagining a movie

with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg during the Columbia U days . I

could somewhat see James Dean as Kerouac, not at all as Cassady,  but could

best imagine him playing  Lucien Carr--described by G. as being young,

innocent but with "a daemonic fury..."

As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie. Besides the

incident itself, which I thought was pretty good on its own, there is the

whole contellation of young soon-to-be Beat

icons, in their earliest days together, heavily involved but not the focal

point. This could keep the film from descending into an exercise in hero

worship.

 

Just a thought,

 

Jules

PS--how about Jim Carrey as Cassady? :)!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:41:02 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Heeg <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

     What is it with you comparing everything to movies and T.V. shows?  In

     most cases I believe that the written word is much stronger and more

     meaningful than the spoken word in films or T.V.. Television numbs the

     mind,  throw your television out the window. JK was not into T.V., one

     of his books I can't remember which,  he describes walking the night

     in a suburban neighborhood, seeing nothing but the same blue light

     radiating from every home.  He couldn't beleive that everyone was

     living this life in front of a television,  when you could be out

     experiencing life.  That's what I believe his books are about living

     life, experiencing everything.  It's just really disappointing with

     all of these comparisions to movies and ridiculous T.V. shows, and

     unfortunately I did see the show Friends and it was HORRIBLE!!! Won't

     make the same mistake.

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Dream film

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date:    9/22/95 9:53 AM

 

 

Last night I was watching  _Rebel Without a Cause_  and was imagining a movie

with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg during the Columbia U days . I

could somewhat see James Dean as Kerouac, not at all as Cassady,  but could

best imagine him playing  Lucien Carr--described by G. as being young,

innocent but with "a daemonic fury..."

As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie. Besides the

incident itself, which I thought was pretty good on its own, there is the

whole contellation of young soon-to-be Beat

icons, in their earliest days together, heavily involved but not the focal

point. This could keep the film from descending into an exercise in hero

worship.

 

Just a thought,

 

Jules

PS--how about Jim Carrey as Cassady? :)!

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:42:36 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

>As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

>thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie.

 

There was a book written about this incident by Burroughs and Kerouac

called And the Hippos were Boiled in Their Tanks.

 

In the letters by kerouac recently published he mentioned the Hippos book

and said it was in a trunk at his Mother's house.  So presumably this

manuscript still exists.  Does anyone know for sure about this?

 

I would think that with all the beat interest these days that a book

co-authored by Burroughs and Kerouac would be greedily lusted after by

publishers.  Does anyone have actual information on this subject?

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:26:47 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Martin Taylor <mtaylor@GPU.SRV.UALBERTA.CA>

Subject:      Self-inflicted Geometry

In-Reply-To:  <199509221332.JAA26626@imageek.york.cuny.edu>

 

On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Kristen VanRiper wrote:

 

> > Japhy Ryder really is, his name is GARY SNYDER and he did publish a book

> > of Han Shan poems.

>

> thank you.

>

> > As for the Euclian Geometry I feel sorry for you having to learn that kind

> > of high level math so you could torture yourself on trains.

>

>

> then you did not understand...

 

I think Nicholas understood perfectly.  Think of it as a koan... truth can

be _so_ funny.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:04:47 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:41:27 -0400 from <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

 

On Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:41:27 -0400 Julie Hulvey said:

>Last night I was watching  _Rebel Without a Cause_  and was imagining a movie

>with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg during the Columbia U days . I

>could somewhat see James Dean as Kerouac, not at all as Cassady,  but could

>best imagine him playing  Lucien Carr--described by G. as being young,

>innocent but with "a daemonic fury..."

>As my fertile but pecuniously useless mind toyed with this idea, I started

>thinking that the Carr-Kammerer story might make a great movie. Besides the

>incident itself, which I thought was pretty good on its own, there is the

>whole contellation of young soon-to-be Beat

>icons, in their earliest days together, heavily involved but not the focal

>point. This could keep the film from descending into an exercise in hero

>worship.

>

>Just a thought,

>

>Jules

>PS--how about Jim Carrey as Cassady? :)!

It would certainly make a sensational movie, one that I'm sure Lucien

Carr wouldnot be very happy about.  Have you read Aaron Latham's article

in New York Magazine about the murder?  If anyone needs the citation,

I'd be glad to look it up. I wonder whatever happened to Latham's

biography of Kerouac.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:37:23 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Kristen VanRiper <pooh@IMAGEEK.YORK.CUNY.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Self-inflicted Geometry

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.91.950922102244.117721A-100000@gpu2.srv.ualberta.ca>

              from "Martin Taylor" at Sep 22, 95 10:26:47 am

 

> I think Nicholas understood perfectly.  Think of it as a koan... truth can

> be _so_ funny.

>

i did not intend for the geometry to be thought of as torture...it was my

escape from the mindless crap that the cathode ray tube inspires...

i did not express myself clearly..i tend to do that... i was thinking

back to a time when i first began to see things in a different light...

i was not going to bother to explain myself... this used to be a warm place..

now...i'll let it go.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 19:36:10 GMT

Reply-To:     Dan_Barth@RedwoodFN.org

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Dan Barth <Dan_Barth@REDWOODFN.ORG>

Organization: Redwood Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

Yeah, Ann Charters says she has read the manuscript and it's terrible.

 

Dan B.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:55:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

>Last night I was watching  _Rebel Without a Cause_  and was >imagining a

movie with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg >during the Columbia U days

.

 

I forgot to write that the young Dennis Hopper as he appeared in _RWAC_would

have made a great Cassady, at least physically.

Couldn't tell if he could have acted Cassady, though......

 

Jules

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:36:48 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Heeg <mheeg@SMTPINET.ASPENSYS.COM>

Subject:      Re[2]: Dream film

 

     There you go again, why the need to to make these ridiculous

     comparisions?  Please, let me know, maybe I will understand what you

     are trying to do/accomplish, and will not become irritated by these

     comparisions.

 

 

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Dream film

Author:  "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> at SMTPINET

Date:    9/22/95 3:09 PM

 

 

>Last night I was watching  _Rebel Without a Cause_  and was >imagining a

movie with Sal Mineo as the young Allen Ginsberg >during the Columbia U days

.

 

I forgot to write that the young Dennis Hopper as he appeared in _RWAC_would

have made a great Cassady, at least physically.

Couldn't tell if he could have acted Cassady, though......

 

Jules

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:23:50 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Michael Skau <mskau@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:      tv

 

Michael Heeg and others:

In _The Dharma Bums_, Kerouac does have Ray Smith, his narrator, does

complain about the suburban life "and inside the little blue square of the

television, each living family riveting its attention on probably one show;

nobody talking" (104), echoing his earlier comment about "television sets

in each living room with everybody looking at the same thing and thinking

the same thing at the same time" (39). He also imagines, "The only alternative

to sleeping out, hopping freights, and doing what I wanted, I saw in a

vision would be to just sit with a hundred other patients in front of a

nice television set in a madhouse, where we could be 'supervised'"(121).

However, one of the most charming aspects of Kerouac's narrators is their

very human and real inconsistency. So, Ray finds himself back in Rocky Mount

on Christmas Eve, "which I spent with a bottle of wine before the TV

enjoying the shows" (135). We can get an idea of what kind of shows he

was watching when he describes "a great big young cop with a gun swinging

in a holster on his hip, all done up like on TV the Sheriff of Cochise

and Wyatt Earp"(159). Ray also says, "Only one thing I'll say for the

people watching television, the millions and millions of the One Eye:

they're not hurting anyone while they're sitting in front of that Eye"

(104). I suppose we all have our guilty pleasures, and Jack's narrators

are always prone to admit theirs.

Good weekends.

Michael

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:29:47 PDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Dream Movie

 

>Yeah, Ann Charters says she has read the manuscript and it's terrible.

 

Good for her.  Unfortunately we are not in such a position to read it and make

our own judgements.  No matter how bad it is I know many people would love

to be able to read it.  And I think the publisher would make good money.

 

I am glad to know that the manuscript exists.

 

Anyone know what the surviving author (Burroughs) has to say about this

book?  Would he not want it published?

 

Also I guess Lucien Carr is alive still (right?).  He might not appreciate it.

 

This might be the biggest stumbling block for it to be published.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:50:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To:  <950922145535_106134432@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "Julie Hulvey"

              at Sep 22, 95 02:55:36 pm

 

> I forgot to write that the young Dennis Hopper as he appeared in _RWAC_would

> have made a great Cassady, at least physically.

> Couldn't tell if he could have acted Cassady, though......

 

No way, much too surly.  Remember, Neal was known for his friendliness

and charm.  Does that describe Dennis Hopper?

 

I do like the idea of Sal Mineo as a young Allen.  But to me the all-time

dream cast for either Sal Paradise/Dean Moriarty or Jack/Neal is

Montgomery Clift/Paul Newman.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

 

     Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/LitKicks.html

                    (the beat literature web site)

 

         Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

                     (my fantasy folk-rock album)

 

                   * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

 

"Way far back in the beginning of the world was the whirlwind warning

 that we would all be blown away like chips and cry -- Men with tired

 eyes realize it now, and wait to deform and decay -- with maybe they

 have the power of love yet in their hearts just the same, I just don't

 know what that word means anymore -- all I want is an ice cream cone"

                  -- Jack Kerouac, 'Desolation Angels'

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:55:54 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Fugs Discography

Comments: cc: RHulvey@aol.com

 

P. Gregory Springer asked in a recent post:

 

>I'm interested in a discography of The Fugs.

 

I can provide some information. [By the way, I am

posting this under my wife's name because she is

the subscriber to the Beat List. I read the list and

have posted once before, but usually I lurk.]

 

The following discography mostly comes from various

published sources. In doing so, I am perpetuating

their errors (since they often contradict themselves).

Someday I'll be able to give the definitive (I hope)

discography, as I am working on a major Ed Sanders

bibliography/discography/videography/etc.-ography.

But meanwhile, and for what it's worth, I banged this

together.

 

The cd re-issues, Songs in Ancient Greek, and

Best of Ed Sanders I purchased directly from Ed.

Presumably, they are still available from: Ed Sanders,

Box 729, Woodstock, NY 12498.

 

If anyone can offer comments, corrections or additions, I would

be extremely grateful. Please email such directly to me at

RHulvey@aol.com  [as well as to the List, if you think it's

appropriate].

 

Thanks.

Ross Hulvey

 

=================

 

THE FUGS:

The Village Fugs

     (Broadside [Folkways] Records, 1965)

First Fugs Album

     [re-issue (I think) of above, often thought

         to be THE first Fugs album]

     (lp, ESP Records, ESP-1018, 1965)

The Fugs First Album

     [re-issue of above, with additional tracks]

     (cd, Fugs Records, 1993)

The Fugs

     [liner notes by Allen Ginsberg]

     (lp, ESP Records, ESP-1028)

The Fugs Second Album

     [re-issue of above, with additional tracks]

     (cd, Fugs Records, 1993)

The ESP Sampler

     [Fugs, et al]

     (lp, ESP Records, nd)

Tenderness Junction

     (lp, Reprise Records, 1968)

Virgin Fugs

     (lp, ESP Records, ESP-1038, 1968)

It Crawled Into My Hand, Honest

     (lp, Reprise Records, 1969)

The Belle of Avenue A

     (lp, Reprise Records, RS6359, 1969)

Golden Filth

     (lp, Reprise Records, 1970)

Fugs 4, Rounders Score

     [Fugs and Holy Modal Rounders]

     (lp, ESP Records, ESP-2018, 1975)

Proto-Punk

     (lp, PVC Records, 1983)

Refuse to be Burnt-Out

     (lp, Olufsen Records, 1984)

Star Peace

     (2 lps, New Rose Records, 1987)

Fugs Live in Woodstock

     (cd, Musik/Musik, 1989)

Real Woodstock Festival

     [should be released by now, but

         haven't seen it yet]

     (2 cds, Ace Records, 1995)

 

ED SANDERS:

Sanders' Truckstop

     (lp, Reprise Records)

Beer Cans on the Moon

     (lp, Reprise Records)

Songs in Ancient Greek

     (cd, Olufsen Records, 1989)

The Best of Ed Sanders

     (cass., Ed Sanders, 1992)

 

TULI KUPFERBERG:

No Deposit, No Return

     (lp, ESP Records, ESP-1035)

     (cd, re-issue [not confirmed])

Rutles Highway Revisited

     [Tuli does "Living in Hope." Also,

         tracks by Peter Stampfel, et al]

     (cd, Shimmy Disc)

 

PETER STAMPFEL / HOLY MODAL ROUNDERS

[I have an incomplete discography on Peter, also.

 But I think it's too peripheral for the Beat List,

 although he's intimately connected to the Fugs.]

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:55:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

  On 9/21, Michael Heeg wrote

>What is it with you comparing everything to movies and T.V.   shows?

 

I suppose you mean the plural "you", since I didn't make the

"Seinfeld vs. Friends" post. In fact I've seen neither show; ever since "Twin

Peaks" went off I haven't seen too much TV. I do like movies and feel they

are a valid art form which also interested Our Heroes -- ever heard of "Pull

my Daisy?":).

I feel you reacted a bit violently to my lighthearted post. But what if I

*had* compared? It could be said that _Rebel without a Cause_, whether or not

high art, came out of the same post WWII dissatisfaction that spawned the

Beats.

 

> In most cases I believe that the written word is much stronger and  > more

meaningful than the spoken word in films or T.V.

 

Truisms numb the mind, throw out yr. truisms. JK was not into truisms.

 

>Television numbs the mind, throw your television out the window.

> JK was not into T.V.

 

I'm not sure about that. Not only did he appear on it, I remember reading

that toward the end he spent a lot of time in front of the TV (although with

the sound turned off). Sad image. I thought it was part of the legend, and

that the Seinfeld/Friends post was a joke about that. So it didn't annoy me.

 

Besides, K liked to numb his mind, just not with TV.

 

>He couldn't beleive that everyone was living this life in front of a

>television,  when you could be out experiencing life.

 

How about in front of a computer?

 

> It's just really disappointing with all of these comparisions to >movies

and ridiculous T.V. shows

 

Sorry

 

>and unfortunately I did see the show Friends

 

He admits it! But go on, how was it?

 

>and it was HORRIBLE!!! Won't make the same mistake.

 

Good. Abandon all hope of being given what you need by the consensus culture.

You will then be "beat".

 

Julie

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 22 Sep 1995 20:57:06 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Laurie Syrek <HamOnRye5@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Self-inflicted Geometry and Mediocre Television!!!

 

Well, the cathode ray tube might be filled with middle-class stereotypes and

superficial, commercialized messages, but surely one cannot say that

television hasn't a redeeming quality? Has anyone ever read anything by Alan

Olsen or Chris and Debra Parr? They're out of BU, and they did some

interesting stuff with television and modes of communication. I think it's

all too easy to dismiss tv as crass and mediocre. Granted, Seinfeld and

Friends may not be intellectually stimulating, but they serve as a good

example of how the youth culture has invaded the mainstream (Do I see a Dobie

Gillis connection?). It shows us where the higher-ups at the network place

the intelligence of the average viewer. Plus, it gives me something to watch

while I'm cleaning my living room. What more can I ask?

 

Don't answer that last question.

 

Laurie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 23 Sep 1995 07:25:55 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

Levi Asher wrote:

 

=I do like the idea of Sal Mineo as a young Allen.  But to me the all-time

=dream cast for either Sal Paradise/Dean Moriarty or Jack/Neal is

=Montgomery Clift/Paul Newman.

 

Sounds decent. I take it, then, you are not too thrilled with the casting of

Brad Pitt and Sean Penn in Coppola's upcoming film version of On the Road?

 

I am new to this list, so forgive me if y'all have already discussed Coppola's

movie, but I am curious what you all think about it. I know it's not even in

the can yet, but what are/were your thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Bonnie Howard

howardb@sonoma.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 23 Sep 1995 07:49:48 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bonnie Howard <HOWARDB@SONOMA.EDU>

Subject:      Appraisers? Help...

 

Hi. I am in a bind here, and need some help, and thought of you folks. I have

come into possession of a large amount of papers, manuscripts, chapbooks,

poems, letters, and books (some signed first ed.'s) from the Beat era, and have

to have the whole shebang catalogued and appraised. I live in Northern

California, and Beat writers are not my specialty, so I'm a bit overwhelmed.

 

If anyone knows of someone who can help me with this massive project, I would

be so grateful. If you know someone or want more info, please e-mail me

privately at:  howardb@sonoma.edu

 

Forgive me for cluttering up your list with a personal request, but I'm about

ready to throw up my hands and start screaming :-)

 

Oh--some of the things that have fallen into my lap are works by: Michael

McClure, Richard Brautigan, Allen Ginsburg, Lew Welch, Philip Whalen, Gary

Snyder, Ron Lowensohn, etc. If this is *your* area of expertise, please let me

know, thanks.

 

Cheers,

Bonnie Lee Howard

howardb@sonoma.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 23 Sep 1995 11:44:39 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To:  <BEAT-L%95092212323662@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> from "Bill Gargan" at Sep

              22, 95 12:04:47 pm

 

Bill Gargan writes:

> It would certainly make a sensational movie, one that I'm sure Lucien

> Carr wouldnot be very happy about.  Have you read Aaron Latham's article

> in New York Magazine about the murder?  If anyone needs the citation,

> I'd be glad to look it up. I wonder whatever happened to Latham's

> biography of Kerouac.

 

Bill, if it's not too much trouble, I would be interested in the

citation.  Thanks.

 

Tony

atrigili@lynx.neu.edu

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 23 Sep 1995 14:21:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Julie Hulvey <JHulvey@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

>No way, much too surly.  Remember, Neal was known for his >friendliness and

charm.  Does that describe Dennis Hopper?

 

Mmm....I'd have to admit it doesn't. Although my husband thinks Hopper not

charmless (though not harmless).

 

Earlier today, when I was looking something else up in "Jack's Book" by Barry

Gifford I came upon a sad passage where Ginsberg visits Neal not too long

before he dies, and notices that "for the very first time", Neal is neither

friendly or charming. Remarkable in such a long relationship.

 

I've been commissioned to do a portrait of Clift and have been seeing his

movies all for the first time. He would have made a beautiful Kerouac.

 

Julie

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 23 Sep 1995 18:20:39 PST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tim Bowden <tcbowden@NERDNOSH.ORG>

Organization: Yucca Flats II in Felton, CA

Subject:      Re: Dream film

In-Reply-To:  <199509231544.LAA07568@lynx.dac.neu.edu>

 

Somewhere you write:

 

> Bill Gargan writes:

 

>> I wonder whatever happened to Latham's

>> biography of Kerouac.

 

Good question.  I remember he was working on the latter stages of it in

1972, during the summer.  He was visiting in Saratoga and interviewing

Carolyn Cassady in Monte Sereno.  The immediate disruption was with the

Charters biog, which beat him to press.  I suspect Straight Arrow may've

rushed _Kerouac_ a bit;  I remember the early reviews weren't favorable.

 

But I was waiting for the Latham version, because I had just read

_Crazy Sundays_ and was looking forward to the same sort of sensible

mosaic wrought out of vivid detail.  I hope it someday becomes

available in some form.

 

--

        .+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=-.

        |     <tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org> | Clovis is the home of      |

        |     NERDNOSH (tm), the crackling campfire of storytellers.      |

        `+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+'

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 24 Sep 1995 12:11:56 +1000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         john reeves <reeves@ODYSSEY.COM.AU>

Subject:      Re: Dream film

 

>

>

>Sounds decent. I take it, then, you are not too thrilled with the casting of

>Brad Pitt and Sean Penn in Coppola's upcoming film version of On the Road?

>

>I am new to this list, so forgive me if y'all have already discussed Coppola's

>movie, but I am curious what you all think about it. I know it's not even in

>the can yet, but what are/were your thoughts?

 

 

Well I for one would be interested in seeing it when it arrives...at first

glance the casting sounds a little dubious but then i recall Kirk Douglas &

Anthony Quimm playing Van Gogh & Gaugin so i guess Francis could pull it off.

 

The major thing would be to actually capture the spirit of the

story...remembering that the events occured in the late forties early

fifties...before there was a fully functional myth/media culture to didtort

the endeavours of these fellows..

>

>Cheers,

>Bonnie Howard

>howardb@sonoma.edu

>

>

 john reeves                       voice--61 7 38445907

             HANGDOG PRODUCTIONS                                <?>

reeves@odyssey.com.au

                       http://www.odyssey.com.au/eyephon/reevhtml/reevhome.html

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 23 Sep 1995 23:22:22 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>



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