>***         William S. Burroughs         ***

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:32:41 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject:      Copy of Letter to Jens Moellenhoff (2)

 

>From: "JENS MOELLENHOFF" <JMOELLEN@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>

>To: gmorrone@prolog.net (George Morrone)

>Date:          Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:07:00 +1000

>Subject: Re: German youth movements

>Priority: normal

>

>

>Dear George,

>

>> >I think, the movement that could be compared with the Beats

>> >concerning their attitude towards society, was the "Edelweiss

>> >Piraten". There are some connections between the "Edelweiss Piraten"

>> >and the "Wandervogel" movement, but it lasted longer.

>> >All over Germany from 1925-1950, there were groups

>> >of youngsters loosly organized like pirate gangs, who were sort of

>> >unconformistic.

>>

>> Are there any sources in English concerning these people? I can't think of

>> a better time to be an unconformist and alienated than 1925-1950.

>>

>

>I don't know of any sources in English concerning these people. If

>you take a really detailed book about German youth culture during

>the first half of the 20th century you'll surely find something about

>the "Edelweiss Piraten". I'll see if I can find something abot this

>topic on the WWW.

>

>> >Of course they were suppressed most by the Nazis, because they

>> >were "unsocial elements". I know that the leaders of these groups

>> >often were arrested after police raids, but whether they were sent to

>> >Concentration Camps I don't know.

>>

>> My guess is that they were drafted into the Army. The Nazis would forgive

>> anything except disloyalty.

>

>I think you are wrong. If you are a rebel against civil society, then

>what would you do in the army ? Do you know that cruel word

>"Wehrkraftzersetzung". I don't know the exact English word, but it

>means that you destroy the nation's power to "defend" itself. In the

>Nazi context, where it was used the most, this word becomes a certain

>meaning, that I surely don't have to explain.

>

>Jens

>Jens Moellenhoff

>

>Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

>Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

>

>University of Munich, Germany

>

>*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

>***         William S. Burroughs         ***

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:27:15 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: poetry vs lawsuits

 

At 11:29 AM 6/13/96 EDT, you wrote:

>This may just be a quixotic attempt on my part to look for the silver

>lining.  Phil is right it could be a massive undertaking to locate all

>the interviewees and obtain their permission at this point --

>particularly so if Gerry doesn't haveaccurate addresses and phone

>numbers.   On the other hand, it presents an interesting opportunity for

>scholars (a number of whom have been critical of Nicosia's research

>methods) and graduate students to do further biographical work onKerouac

>-- which might verify or add a new slant to the view of K presented in

>Memory Babe.     While the tapes may be sealed, I see no reason why the

>list of interviewees has to be sealed.  Is it?  If not, interested

>researchers could contact the interviewees and talk to them again --

>this time making certain to gainthe proper permissions.  Granted, it's

>going over a lot of old ground again but it might not be a complete waste

>of time.  And while the researchers are doing their own interviews, they

>might also ask for a release for the interviews already on file in the

>Lowell library.

>

>What a absolutely fantastic and positive idea!

The list of interviewees (names only) is on the internet at the U-Lowell

sight but I think that the effort to contact these people or their relatives

would have to be done by someone from or represented by the University. To

keep it professional and orderly and maybe even to keep it legal. What do

you think Bill? I wonder if Gerry would be willing to undertake such a

task.HMM interesting. Phil

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:36:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject:      Beatitude & Zen

 

As we know, any potentially useful, authentic discussion of the beat/zen

connection will necessarily swerve from authority.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:38:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>

Subject:      Hey--

 

Thinking NOW of Phil Whalen...

anyone else?

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:48:50 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch <PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject:      zen

 

               ------------------

              |                  |

              |                  |

              |                  |

              |         .        |

              |                  |

              |                  |

              |                  |

               __________________

 

              Zen connect the dots

 

 

 

 

 

  "...Farmer,

 

          pointing the way

 

                with a radish..."

 

 

                        ---Issa

 

 

 

"I have nothing to say

 

 and I am saying it

 

 that is poetry..."

 

          ---John Cage

 

 

"A monk asked Master Haryo,

 'What is the way?'

 Haryo said

 'An open-eyed man

falling into the well...'"

 

          ---Zen koan

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:53:33 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject:      Buddhism and Jack

 

I was reading The Scripture of the Golden Eternity by Kerouac a little

while ago:

Of course there are several interpretations of various themes-ideas of

the work, but here is one of the several things I got from it --

It could be called The Fuck It, Who Cares Scripture --

It seems what Jack is saying partly is: all this , reality so forth, is

going to be just a small blip of memory when we look back from the

ever-encroaching-so-that-it's-almost-or-always-here future we're all

gonna die we're swimming in fluid yet timeless moments the universe is

dead and destroyed already a little down the road of time so why the hell

am I worried about such mundane things in everyday life...

So just chill, find PEACE, and have fun.

 

That's what I got from it, sort of.

"So be sure." JK

 

Eric

 

Any comments, opposing thoughts please.

By the way, The Scripture is on the web somewheres. Checkitout if yahavent.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:59:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject:      aSIDE

 

aNYONE INTERESTED IN Zen-like/koan-like/fable-like poems, check out

Stephen Crane, a Beat who lived about 50 years too soon to fall into the

normal category. Just a suggestion.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:12:51 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jim Rivas <rivas@HOOKED.NET>

Subject:      Re: Wandervogel

 

Dear George and Jean,

 

As a supplement to your =93Wandervogel=94 question and response, you migh=

t=20

find some further study into the pre-World War One =93Wandervogel=94=20

movement of some interest.  You will definitely see some parallels=20

between Germany=92s turn of the century youth movement and the American=20

Beats: deep dissatisfaction with the hypocritical moral constraints of=20

industrial society and a turn towards naturalism (including a drop-out=20

mentality), a fascination with mysticism or an alternative religious=20

model ( in this case, ancient Germanic mythology as opposed to Zen),=20

philosophical curiosity, and a nomadic lifestyle (if memory serves, the=20

word =93Wandervogel=94 means wandering bird in german).  Interestingly=20

enough, come 1914 and the start of WW1, a great percentage of the=20

=93Wandervogel=94 quickly enlisted in the German army and were considered=

=20

some of the most fervent nationalist.  I=92ve heard at least one U.C.=20

Berkeley historian refer to the pre-war =93Wandervogel=94 as Germany=92s =

turn=20

of the century hippie movement.

 

Jim R.

 

 

 

George Morrone wrote:

>=20

> >From: "JENS MOELLENHOFF" <JMOELLEN@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de>

> >To: gmorrone@prolog.net (George Morrone)

> >Date:          Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:56:28 +1000

> >Subject: Re: German youth movements

> >Priority: normal

> >

> >

> >> Dear Herr Moellenhoff:

> >>

> >> Since you suscribe to the beat lit mailing list, perhaps you could p=

rovide

> >> some pointers on how to find more information on German counterparts=

 of the

> >> "Beat" phenomena. In particular, I'm thinking of the "Wandervogel" p=

eople,

> >> who wore rucksacks, played guitars, wore long hair and sandals. I'm =

trying

> >> to determine to what extend "nachtkultur" (please pardon my spelling=

 if

> >> it's not correct!) or nudism was involved. Also, were many students =

at the

> >> Weimar Bauhaus involved in the Wandervogel? I'm writing a novel that=

 takes

> >> place partly in the early twenties at the Bauhaus and its pretty dif=

ficult

> >> to find DETAILS on what daily life was like. Johannes Itten was a

> >> fascinating person that many of the beats would have felt right at h=

ome

> >> with. Thanks in advance.

> >>

> >> George Morrone

> >>

> >

> >Dear George Morrone,

> >

> >It's so wonderfull being addressed as "Herr Moellenhoff", but you

> >have to know that I'm just a 21-year-old pale-faced student trying

> >to get the best as possible out of German and American (!) literature.

> >

> >Frankly said, I'm not too familiar with the "Wandervogel" or

> >"NACKTKULTUR" (sorry for correcting you) movement. I also got only a

> >rough impression from the "Weimar Bauhaus".

> >

> >I think, the movement that could be compared with the Beats

> >concerning their attitude towards society, was the "Edelweiss

> >Piraten". There are some connections between the "Edelweiss Piraten"

> >and the "Wandervogel" movement, but it lasted longer.

> >All over Germany from 1925-1950, there were groups

> >of youngsters loosly organized like pirate gangs, who were sort of

> >unconformistic. They just hung around in public places, sometimes

> >were criminals, wore long hairs, weird, shabby clothes and

> >clandestinely listened to "American nigger (pardon me for that word !)

> >music" like Swing. They were definitly fascinated by American

> >(sub-)culture.

> >

> >Of course they were suppressed most by the Nazis, because they

> >were "unsocial elements". I know that the leaders of these groups

> >often were arrested after police raids, but whether they were sent to

> >Concentration Camps I don't know.

> >

> >To find DETAILS about life in 1920s Germany, I would recommend the

> >following books:

> >

> >Alfred Doeblin: "Berlin Alexanderplatz" (filmed by Rainer Werner Fassb=

inder)

> >Erich Kaestner's  poems and novel "Fabian - the story of a moralist"

> >Hermann Hesse: "Steppenwolf"

> >(hasn't there been this weird hardrock group called "Steppenwolf" ?)

> >

> >I hope these details are useful to you. Maybe I'll send you more in a

> >few weeks time.

> >Jens

> >Jens Moellenhoff

> >

> >Email:jmoellen@nw80.cip.fak14.uni-muenchen.de

> >Internet:http://www.fak14.uni-muenchen.de/~jmoellen/ (German Language)

> >

> >University of Munich, Germany

> >

> >*** Language is a Virus from Outer Space ***

> >***         William S. Burroughs         ***

> >

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:26:00 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jim Rivas <rivas@HOOKED.NET>

Subject:      Allen G

 

Does anybody know if A.G. still teaching at the City Unviersity of New

York. If so, what courses (Graduate? Undergrad?)

 

Jim R.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:27:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Stephen Crane

 

>aNYONE INTERESTED IN Zen-like/koan-like/fable-like poems, check out

>Stephen Crane, a Beat who lived about 50 years too soon to fall into the

>normal category. Just a suggestion.

 

        Yes, I agree! His collection "The Black Riders" has many short poems

that suggest GREAT things with economy and understatement.  Crane refused to

call his poems "poems", too (a bit like Kerouac and his "hymns" perhaps?).

Crane called them "lines".  His short life reads very Beat, too: traveled

constantly, disputes with publishers, hungered for experience.

        Based on what I've read, I would have to agree that Kerouac was

mostly a dabbler in Zen, particularly during his association with Snyder.

 

Dan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 02:48:01 GMT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "s. mark johnson" <smark@NYC.PIPELINE.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hey--

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

          <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@vm.its.rpi.edu>

 

On Jun 13, 1996 19:38:05, 'The Lowes <hdnfalls@POND.COM>' wrote:

 

 

>Thinking NOW of Phil Whalen...

>anyone else?

 

"On Bear's Head" got me through probably the worst year of my life.  Mark J

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:21:03 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tim Donahue <Tim1461@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Beat Lit. Symposium

 

I seem to have joined this listserve in the middle of a lawsuit discussion.

 Nevertheless, I offer this info from a flyer I received:

 

Call for Papers:

 

Beat Lit. Symposium 1996

 

University of Massachusetts - Lowell

Friday, October 4, 1996

 

Submissions welcome on:

 

*  Kerouac's Lowell novells

*  Portrayals of race, gender, sexuality in Kerouac's

    fiction

*  Beat poets, especiaslly Ginsberg, Corso, Snyder

*  Kerouac's "spontaneous prose"

                     ... open to other topics as well

 

Send your one-page proposal by July 31 to:

 

Prof. Hilary Holladay

English Department

U. Mass. Lowell

Lowell, MA 01845

 

holladayh@woods.uml.edu

 

The symposium will be held in conjunction with

"Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!"  October 3 - 6,

a city-wide festival commemorating the writings of Lowell native Jack Kerouac

 

 

I hope it's of interest.

                                            Tim Donahue

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:52:06 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         SPOTS OF TIME <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Hey--

 

There is a new book out by Phil Whalen, have not seen it out yet (at least in

my area which is no surprise).

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:06:01 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Moritz Rossbach <moro0000@STUD.UNI-SB.DE>

Subject:      Re: Zen and the beats

Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.uucp>

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960613231945.00682740@pop.tiac.net>

 

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Phil Chaput wrote:

 

> I believe in the sweetness

>         of Jesus

> And Buddha-

>         I believe

> In St Francis,

>         Avaloki

> Tesvara,

>         the saints

> Of First Century

>         India A D

> And Scholars

>         Santidevan

> And Otherwise

>         Santayanan

>         Everywhere

>                     Jack Kerouac-Mexico City Blues

>

> I have read that Jack had said he wasn't that serious about his Buddism and

> that it was a just a phase in his life he went through. I can't remember

> where I read that it might have been in an interview somewhere. He was born

> and died a Catholic but isn't it great that he was so influenced by Buddhism

> as evidence in his writings. I wonder how many people first learned of

> Buddhism by reading "The Dharma Bums".

>

> "How many a man has dated a new era in his life from reading of a

> book"-Henry David Thoreau - from the introduction to "Big Sky Mind"  Phil

>

I definetly did...

But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

 

greetings from germany

moritz

moro0000@stud.uni-sb.de

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:15:27 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: Allen G

In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:26:00 -0700 from <rivas@HOOKED.NET>

 

Allen Ginsberg teaches at Brooklyn College.  This fall he will be teaching an u

ndergraduate seminar on William Blake as well as his tutorials and coursework i

n our MFA creative writing program.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:14:07 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject:      Re: Wandervogel and Edelweiss Piraten

In-Reply-To:  <v01530501ade6613d4293@[204.186.21.23]>

 

Hi!

I don't know how much it will be really related to your novel or the

characters in it, since I've never heard of the Wandervogel or Edelweiss

Piraten, but the latter group sounds somewhat like a group of students

who're the center of the movie "Swing Kids".  It's pretty readily

availiable in the US, but I don't know about overseas.

 

 

Jonathan

 

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

 

        "Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

        of life."

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:20:03 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jonathan Kratter <jonkrat@NUEVA.PVT.K12.CA.US>

Subject:      Re: aSIDE

In-Reply-To:  <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960613195557.17591B-100000@crystal.palace.net>

 

Yes!  I've read a couple of poems by him and they're fantastic!  Here are

two of my favorites:

 

Many Workmen

 

Many Workmen

Built a huge ball of masonry

Upon a mountaintop.

Then they went to the vaelly below,

And turned to behold their work.

"It is grand," they said;

They loved the thing.

 

Of a sudden, it moved:

It came upon them swiftly;

It crushed them all to blood.

But some had opportunity to squeal.

 

 

the next:

 

A Man Said to the Universe

 

A man said to the universe:

"Sir, I exsit!"

"However," replied the universe,

"The fact has not created in me

A sense of obligation."

 

 

jonathan

 

=========================

Jonathan Kratter, Dreamer

 

        "Fantasies are the sugar with which you take the bitter medicine

        of life."

 

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Robert H. Sapp wrote:

 

> aNYONE INTERESTED IN Zen-like/koan-like/fable-like poems, check out

> Stephen Crane, a Beat who lived about 50 years too soon to fall into the

> normal category. Just a suggestion.

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:20:02 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Trevor D. Smith" <V116NH27@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>

Organization: University at Buffalo

Subject:      Re: Wandervo(e)gel

 

Being also interested in German lit. and its relation

to the Beats, I am intrigued with this latest "spin" on

things (i.e. the "Wandervoegel").

 

To this point and to the time-frame indicated, I might

suggest having a look at Hermann Hesse's short novel,

_Knulp_ (1915).  This is the story of a vagabond/artist

and his youth, travels, and ultimately, his death.  May

fit well into this topic (and it's an compelling work).

 

Trevor Smith

  SUNY at Buffalo

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:23:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         nappodd2 <nappodd2@ALPHA.SHIANET.ORG>

Subject:      Zen books

 

>But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

>east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

>Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

 

        I'm no expert on the subject, but I can offer some suggestions.

First, a lot of people refer to what the Beats were involved with as

"Buddhism"--which is pretty general.  What interested writers like Gary

Snyder was "Ch'an Buddhism", which became "Zen Buddhism" when it made it to

feudal Japan in the 12th century.  Ch'an--which means "mediation"--developed

in southern China during the Tang dynasty.  This is the school of sudden

enlightenment, which featured much discipline, koans, and frequent physical

beating.  But it was always a good natured and rewarding beating.

        The best book I have read about the subject is "Zen Buddhism" (N.Y.:

Anchor) by D.T. Suzuki.  He's more than a scholar--he's lived it.  A very

entertaining (and short) book about a skeptical German academic who travels

to Japan and learns archery from Zen masters is "Zen and the Art of Archery"

(N.Y.: Pantheon) by Eugen Herrigel.  The more I think about it, that book is

a must read.  The most famous popular book about Zen is by Christmas

Humphreys (sounds like one of Kerouac's names), but the title escapes me.

 

Adios

Dan

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 03:59:53 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Tom Moody <tmoody@WILEY.CSUSB.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Zen books

 

>>But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

>>east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

>>Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

>

>If it makes any sense to talk about at "authority" on Zen, it would be D>T>

Suzuki.

The Dutch mystery writer Janwillem vandewetering also wrote two wonderful

accounts of his experiences first in a Japanese Zen monastery and then in an

American one. "A Glimpse of Nothingness" and "The Empty Mirror" they're

called.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:32:57 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Song for Nobody: Thomas Merton, Zen, & The Beats

 

Remember Thomas Merton when checking into Zen & The Beats. First thing

Lawrence Ferlinghetti asked when I brought him to Louisville for few days was

will you take me to visit Merton's grave at Abbey of Gethsemani. Merton spent

last night of his life in USA at Ferlinghetti's in California. Merton

published The Beats (see Monk's Pond) plus immersed himself in Zen. Some

conspiracy theorists believe his mysterious death (Bangkok, Thailand 1968. yr

before Jack's) had something to do with his religious politics of stepping

outside the epistemological boundaries of Catholicism & his Trappist vows. He

became friends with His Holiness The Dalai Lama (who's doing one week retreat

this summer at Merton's Hermitage), wrote extensively on Buddhism (incl Zen

brand), & is as responsible as anyone for building bridge between orient &

occident, Buddhism & Christianity. Besides The Seven Storey Mountain

(Merton's autobiography) other books of interest are: Zen and the Birds of

Appetite, Mystics and Zen Masters, The Asian Journal, Thomas Merton on Peace,

The Way of Chuang Tzu, plus Ron Seitz' Song For Nobody: A Memory Vision of

Thomas Merton (most inside personal view of Merton to date), plus new

7-volume journals of Thomas Merton (1st 3 are out. 1 issued every 6 months by

Harper Collins), plus White Fields Press Published in Heaven Poster Series'

Thomas Merton's The Harmonies of Excess & Ron Seitz' Thomas Merton plus

upcoming Ron Seitz' Upon First Meeting Thomas Merton. Thanks! Ron Whitehead

 6/14/96  7:27PM     P.S. Plus for new Beat publication watch for August

issue of TRIBE magazine (release July 31st) I'm Guest Editor of. Cover to

cover Beat (& otherr) material. I just completed long interview with William

S. Burroughs which will be featured along with new photos of Burroughs (front

cover & inside) by John Blumb (his photographer)

(Neil Hennessey recently did interview with Burroughs I'm hoping to publish

somewhere in White Fields Press Series in near future). Issue will also

include new work (interviews, poems, photos) on/by Diane di Prima, Lawrence

Ferlinghetti, Robert Creeley, David Amram, Ed Sanders, & others. Going back

to New Orleans on 18th for few days to wrap issue up & delive to printer.

I'll give more updated information at end of month.

 Thanks! Ron

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:30:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Phil Chaput <Philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      Re: Zen books

 

At 03:59 AM 6/15/96 -0700, you wrote:

>>>But there are still a lot of questions about this _mysterious unknown

>>>east culture thing_ called buddhism holding my mind.

>>>Anyone can recommand a good book on the subject itself ?

>>

>>If it makes any sense to talk about at "authority" on Zen, it would be D>T>

>Suzuki.

>The Dutch mystery writer Janwillem vandewetering also wrote two wonderful

>accounts of his experiences first in a Japanese Zen monastery and then in an

>American one. "A Glimpse of Nothingness" and "The Empty Mirror" they're

>called.

>

 From Phil C.

>D.T. Zuzuki writes---

 

Among the most remarkable features characterizing Zen we find these:

spirituality, directness of expression, disregard of form or

conventionalism, and frequently an almost wanton delight in going astray

from respectability.- D.T. Suzuki

 

Boy does that sound like Jack K. or what? Some cool Zen sayings>>>

 

When a monk asked, " what is the Buddha?" Ummon (863-949) replied,"A shit

wiping stick."

 

I don't know. I don't care. And it doesn't make any difference.-Jack Kerouac

 

Sacred cows make great hamburgers- Robert Reisner

 

The less effort, the faster and more powerful you will be.- Bruce Lee

 

Zen is like looking for the specticles that are sitting on your nose- Zen saying

 

How describe the delicate thing that happens when a brilliant insect alights

on a flower? Words, with their weight, fall upon the picture like birds of

prey.- Jules Renard   but Jack Kerouac turned the hawk into a dove- Phil

 

 

 

Let's hear your best Zen sayings>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1996 22:01:36 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject:      Buddhism and Jack (fwd)

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 19:53:33 -0400 (EDT)

From: Robert H. Sapp <rhs4@crystal.palace.net>

To: beat-l@cunyvm.cuny.edu

Subject: Buddhism and Jack

 

I was reading The Scripture of the Golden Eternity by Kerouac a little

while ago:

Of course there are several interpretations of various themes-ideas of

the work, but here is one of the several things I got from it --

It could be called The Fuck It, Who Cares Scripture --

It seems what Jack is saying partly is: all this , reality so forth, is

going to be just a small blip of memory when we look back from the

ever-encroaching-so-that-it's-almost-or-always-here future we're all

gonna die we're swimming in fluid yet timeless moments the universe is

dead and destroyed already a little down the road of time so why the hell

am I worried about such mundane things in everyday life...

So just chill, find PEACE, and have fun.

 

That's what I got from it, sort of.

"So be sure." JK

 

Eric

 

Any comments, opposing thoughts please.

By the way, The Scripture is on the web somewheres. Checkitout if yahavent.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:35:12 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         mARK hEMENWAY <mhemenway@S1.DRC.COM>

Subject:      Re: Buddhism and Jack (fwd)

 

The <<Buddhist Bible>> is a collection of Buddhist Scriptures which served

as a primary resource for the beats. It contains the Diamond Sutra which

Jack read and memorized extensively. This wonderful anthology is in print

again and available on the shelf at mainstream bookstores. Scripture of

the Golden Eternity can sound like a bunch of gobbelety gook until one

begins to understand Buddhist teachings. It then becomes a tribute to

Jack's genius. It's not hard to see why some consider Jack a major figure

in American Buddhism.

 

You can also check out "Tricycle" magazine which recently serialized

Jack's Version of Siddharta. If Tricycle is the East Coast versions,

"Shambhala Sun" is the West Coast magazine of American Buddhism and has

more pictures of Gary Snyder. Both are excellent and worth checking out.

 

Gee. Hope I'm not sounding too pompous. Don't mean to be

 

Mark Hemenway

Dharma beat magazine

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:22:09 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Douglas Dusseau <ddusseau@IN.NET>

Subject:      Literary Kicks

 

I noticed that Wired listed Levi's Literary Kicks in the net surf of the

July issue describing it as "a beautifully assembled shrine dedicated to all

people, places and things beat."  Good to see Levi receive this well

deserved plug!!

Douglas M Dusseau

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:02:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject:      Janwillem van de Wetering

Comments: To: BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@uunet.uu.net

In-Reply-To:  <2.2.32.19960615003053.006742a4@pop.tiac.net> from "Phil Chaput"

              at Jun 14, 96 08:30:53 pm

 

J.d.v.W.'s fiction also has a lot of Buddhist philosophy,which may seem

strange in light of the fact that he writes a series based upon the

exploits of 2 cops and their boss who work for the Amsterdam police.

 

(J.d.v.W. was also a cop,in addition to having lived in/written of

living in a Buddhist monastery)

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:31:08 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject:      FBI Files on Kerouac, Ginsberg & Co. ?

 

It strikes me as very likely that J. Edgar Hoover (for whom Kerouac &

Ginsberg were probably his worst nightmares!) had the FBI investigate them.

Has anyone requested the files (if they exist) from the FBI (under the

freedom of information act) or the National Archives? It would make pretty

interesting reading!

 

George

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:31:12 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject:      An excellent book on Zen

 

Check out "Questions to a Zen Master" by Taisen Deshimaru:

 

Firewood becomes ashes; the ashes cannot become firewood again and the

firewood cannot see it's own ashes.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 21:06:13 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject:      Re: Zen and the beats

 

Phil wrote:

 

>Zen sucks I'd rather talk about legal babble and petty lawsuits. JUST

>KIDDING FOLKS

 

 

But seriously, ... I was wondering: this list is being archived somewhere,

right? Maybe someday some enterprising editor will want to publish some of

this stuff... Will they have to get permission from the people who submit

letters? Or are the e-mail contributions in the public domain? Anyway, I

hereby place my own modest contributions in the public domain.

 

 

>I have read that Jack had said he wasn't that serious about his Buddism and

>that it was a just a phase in his life he went through. I can't remember

>where I read that it might have been in an interview somewhere.

 

To me, Zen, Taoism and Buddhism are disciplines, and as we know, Jack, as

good a writer as he was, never took well to discipline. I can't imagine him

staying in one place long enough to acquire any systematic or focused

doctrine or practice. Discipline and Beat sensibility CAN go together,

though. Consider Gary Snyder. Speaking of whom, what's the best Snyder bio

other than "Dimensions of a Life?" (Which I've already read.)

 

 

>He was born

>and died a Catholic but isn't it great that he was so influenced by Buddhism

>as evidence in his writings. I wonder how many people first learned of

>Buddhism by reading "The Dharma Bums".

 

 

I first read D. T. Suzuki's "Introduction to Zen Buddhism," then stuff by

Alan Watts & Aldous Huxley (AW, AH, and Timothy Leary were my "holy

trinity" in the late sixties!) Suzuki's book was like a flash of lightning

on a late, humid summer afternoon. Then came Hermann Hesse. I first read

"The Dharma Bums" at college in the early seventies. (The character I liked

best was Japhy Ryder.)

 

George

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 21:06:19 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject:      Re: Buddhism and Jack

 

>I was reading The Scripture of the Golden Eternity by Kerouac a little

>while ago:

>Of course there are several interpretations of various themes-ideas of

>the work, but here is one of the several things I got from it --

>It could be called The Fuck It, Who Cares Scripture --

 

We westerners often confuse Nirvana, Satori, etc. with passivity and

negativity. IF this was Jack's interpretation of Eastern religion (and I

think it was, but haven't read enough to be sure) he was wrong about that

aspect of it. Was Jack something of a Nihilist? and did he see in Buddhism

justification for his renunciation? I guess fundamentally, the question I

would like to ask is: how did Jack construct his identity? How did he

define himself?

 

 

>It seems what Jack is saying partly is: all this , reality so forth, is

>going to be just a small blip of memory when we look back from the

>ever-encroaching-so-that-it's-almost-or-always-here future we're all

>gonna die we're swimming in fluid yet timeless moments the universe is

>dead and destroyed already a little down the road of time so why the hell

>am I worried about such mundane things in everyday life...

>So just chill, find PEACE, and have fun.

 

Even if all that is true, it's no excuse not to care for each other, live a

stable life, marry and raise children (if that's what you want,) develop

oneself as a writer; work for human rights. Much of what Jack criticized

WAS wrong. Still, we can chill, find peace, have fun, and also study and

work.

 

George

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 23:02:40 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Fave Zen Quote

 

Hi, Beats!

 

 

"Go to bed now, quickly. Quickly and slowly."

 

                     J.D. Salinger

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 15 Jun 1996 23:27:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject:      oriental vs occidental

 

Hello! What does it mean to say Taoism Buddhism Zen are disciplines?

Discipline as in way of life? Tao means The Way. Buddha means fully

enlightened one from root buddh to wake up. Zen (ch'an in Chinese, dhyana in

Sanskrit) means meditation (school of Mahayana Buddhism emphasizes meditation

as its primary practice). Questions. Words. No answers. How translate

definitions into understanding? And do different cultures understand

experience differently? Is eastern oriental mind being different than western

occidental mind being? Kerouac, in Scattered Poems (City Lights, Pocket Poet

Series #28), gives some personal insight when he says "The 'Haiku' was

invented and developed over hundreds of years in Japan to be a complete poem

in seventeen syllables and to pack in a whole vision of life in three short

lines. A 'Western Haiku' need not concern itself with the seventeen syllables

since Western languages cannot adapt themselves to the fluid syllabillic

Japanese. I propose that the 'Western Haiku' simply say a lot in three short

lines in any Western language. Above all, a Haiku must be very simple and

free of all poetic trickery and make a little picture and yet be as airy and

graceful as a Vivaldi Pastorella."

Do you have an affinity to Taoism Buddhism Zen? Do you select what works best

for you and apply it to your own life your own experience your own

understanding? Do you consider yourself to be disciplined but disciplined in

your own way rather than a prescribed traditional way? Didn't Kerouac (&

other poet mystics) take from the world what worked best for him & allow that

new knowledge to wed his own inner experience & from that consummated inner

relationship gave birth to new forms of expression of being of understanding.

Kerouac revealed, via personal choice & necessity, that the fresh wind of

creative imagination & expression (holy spirit?) breathed into the best of

disciplines can break arbitrary bonds while allowing a freer new expression

of ancient truth plus lead to a less stressed life (The Dalai Lama told me

"their's nothing wrong with knowing happiness"). And just because his life

ended the way it did doesn't mean he didn't know the AH & AHA time & time

again before the final long dark slide.

Zen is as much no discipline as it is discipline. Zen is complete immersion

into life, complete engagement in being, in being self or in being other.

Zen is letting go completely, living fully in spontaneous now, living without

safety net, taking holy unholy risks. Zen discipline also enables focus,

focus to point of being able to exit self & enter other whatever whoever

other might be so one can experience Zen from many (infinite?) perspectives.

Other words that relate to (& can lead to) this experience are sympathy,

empathy (ability to be an empath, to enter another at least thru imagination

& experience world thru their eyes), compassion, negative capability. In Zen

All-Connectedness is recognized.

Another response to what Zen is =

 

 

 

 

    In Kentucky

     I pass fast

on one lane bridges

 

Ron Whitehead

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:34:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         CMJ <Forza@CRIS.COM>

Subject:      Seconding George's Motion

 

Hi, fellow Beats:

 

I agree with George, it would be very interesting indeed to see what ole

J.Edgar might have had on Jack, Ginsberg and others!  If memory serves me,

and as the years pass, it doesn't always to that; I believe Ginsberg did

protest the war.  And in general, the whole Beat lifestyle would have

certainly been a subject of immense curiosity for Hoover.  If anyone can

get info, I would really appreciate reading about it.

 

Also, as the mother of three Generation X'ers, I'd like to pose a question

to our younger Beats out there. I find this really fascinating, and I hope

the Boomer Beats will indulge me.<g>  My teenagers have told me that hands

down, Kurt Cobain, was into Zen very deeply. They, in fact, had me listen

to some of his lyrics, and indeed, there are some references, some very

blatant ones such as, "come as you are, as you were," etc.  Needless, to

say, this is something that had passed me by. I'd be interested in any

comments from any of you "younger cats" out there:)) You can write me

personally, if you would prefer to do so, but please, I'm posing this

legitimately for my kids, no flames. Thanks.

 

Thanks,

 

Chris

forza@concentric.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:13:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject:      come as you are, as you were

 

Hello! You can know Zen be Zen without ever knowing the word Zen or its

definition or practicing the discipline in Zen monastery. Many people are Zen

without knowing it officially.             Icognito libido

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:07:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ed Hertzog <exh112@PSU.EDU>

Subject:      Cobain and Zen

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

          <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

 

>I agree with George, it would be very interesting indeed to see what ole

>J.Edgar might have had on Jack, Ginsberg and others

 

You might want to check out <http://parascope.infozone.com/request.html>.

You can use this to generate a info request for government files on

individuals as is allowed by the Freedom of Information Act.

 

>Also, as the mother of three Generation X'ers, I'd like to pose a question

>to our younger Beats out there. I find this really fascinating, and I hope

>the Boomer Beats will indulge me.<g>  My teenagers have told me that hands

>down, Kurt Cobain, was into Zen very deeply.

 

A lot of people say they are really into Zen or Buddhism but have no clue. I

really can't answer for you whether or not Cobain's Zen was legit or not.

What I can tell you that his wife had some of his ashes sent to a Buddhist

temple in Tibet -- or at least that's the rumor I've heard.

 

E Hertzog

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:12:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Kiriazis <kir@HAMPTONS.COM>

Subject:      Jackson Pollock and the Beat Generation

 

If anyone is planning to be in the East Hampton, NY area in mid July, there

is an interesting lecture scheduled.

The Pollock-Krasner House and Study Center (Jackson Pollock's and Lee

Krasner's house and studio) has seven lectures planned for their summer

series, dealing with various aspects of contempory art.  The first,

scheduled for 14 July, is "Jackson Pollock and the Beat Generation", given

by Ellen G. Landau from Case Western Reserve University.  The program begins

at 5 pm and costs $12.  Seating is very limited.  If you want more

information, the phone number of the Center is 516-324-4929.

 

Bill Kiriazis

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:14:59 -0600

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         George Morrone <gmorrone@PROLOG.NET>

Subject:      Re: oriental vs occidental

 

>Hello! What does it mean to say Taoism Buddhism Zen are disciplines?

>Discipline as in way of life?

 

Yes. Consider the following two quotes from John Blofeld's excellent book:

 

"'Immortality' is the term by which Taoists at at every level of

understanding designate their goal..." p. 15

 

"Attainment of immortality means successful cultivation of the Way.

Cultivation of the way is a lifelong process of refinement of the adept's

consciousness. Bringing to bear his fully integrated powers of body and

mind, he gradually discovers his real self - which in a sense is no-self."

p. 40 John Blofeld

Taoism: The Road to Immortality

 

 

>Questions. Words. No answers. How translate

>definitions into understanding? And do different cultures understand

>experience differently? Is eastern oriental mind being different than western

>occidental mind being?

 

"The secret of Zen is the practice of zazen. Zazen is difficult, I know.

But, practiced daily, it is a very effective way of expanding consciousness

and developing intuition. Zazen releases and mobilizes energy; it is also

the posture of awakening." p xiii

Taisen Deshimaru, Questions to a Zen Master

 

 

>Do you have an affinity to Taoism Buddhism Zen?

 

It's hard to explain, but when I read what people like D. T. Suzuki or John

Blofeld write I respond; it strikes a chord.

 

>Do you select what works best

>for you and apply it to your own life your own experience your own

>understanding?

 

I practice Zazen; not as often as I should; but when I do I know what

Taisen Deshimaru is talking about.

 

 

>Do you consider yourself to be disciplined but disciplined in

>your own way rather than a prescribed traditional way?

 

Just living a settled life with job, wife, kids, bills to pay takes a

considerable amount of discipline! I've lived the way Kerouac & Co. did

back in the early seventies when I got out of the Navy but recognized how

destructive it was.

 

 

>Didn't Kerouac (&

>other poet mystics) take from the world what worked best for him & allow that

>new knowledge to wed his own inner experience & from that consummated inner

>relationship gave birth to new forms of expression of being of understanding.

 

What Kerouac did in his life didn't work for him! He was miserable and had

constantly to kill the pain with alcohol! He was not happy, gave up on

life, and thought he found justification for his renunciation in Buddhism.

I could make my point by contrasting Kerouac and Gary Snyder. Don't think

I'm condemning Jack, though. He dealt with his problems as best he could,

and made some bad choices, but he was a great writer and I respect that.

 

>Kerouac revealed, via personal choice & necessity, that the fresh wind of

>creative imagination & expression (holy spirit?) breathed into the best of

>disciplines can break arbitrary bonds while allowing a freer new expression

>of ancient truth plus lead to a less stressed life (The Dalai Lama told me

>"their's nothing wrong with knowing happiness").

 

True, but Kerouac's life was highly stressful.

 

 

>And just because his life

>ended the way it did doesn't mean he didn't know the AH & AHA time & time

>again before the final long dark slide.

 

His life ending the way it did was the logical outcome of the choices he

made. He was right about a great many things and I wish he had more respect

for himself and his ability. I also wish he were capable of earning a

living apart from his writing: a trade such as carpentry or cooking cab

driving would have benefited his writing.

 

 

>Zen is as much no discipline as it is discipline. Zen is complete immersion

>into life, complete engagement in being, in being self or in being other.

>Zen is letting go completely, living fully in spontaneous now, living without

>safety net, taking holy unholy risks. Zen discipline also enables focus,

>focus to point of being able to exit self & enter other whatever whoever

>other might be so one can experience Zen from many (infinite?) perspectives.

 

Most of the time, Kerouac was not focused, Snyder was!

 

>Other words that relate to (& can lead to) this experience are sympathy,

>empathy (ability to be an empath, to enter another at least thru imagination

>& experience world thru their eyes), compassion, negative capability. In Zen

>All-Connectedness is recognized.

>Another response to what Zen is =

>

 

All that may be true; it's still no excuse for laziness, passivity,

self-destructiveness, nihilism, alcoholism, drug abuse.

 

>

"... it may be thought that the critics are justified in charging Zen with

advocating a philosophy of pure negation, but nothing is so far from

Zen...Mere negation is not the spirit of Zen..." p. 51

 

"Apparently Zen negates, but it is always holding up before us something

which indeed lies right before our own eyes; and if we do not pick it up by

ourselves, it is our own fault. Most people, whose mental vision is

darkened by the clouds of ignorance, pass it by and refuse to look at it.

To them Zen is, indeed, nihilism, just because they do not see it." p. 52

D. T. Suzuki Introduction to Zen Buddhism

 

 

George

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:07:23 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Ron Whitehead <RWhiteBone@AOL.COM>

Subject:      oriental vs occidental II

 

Hello! Much of George's responsive is relative to his own experience. Just

becaus you experience something as true doesn't mean it's true for anyone

else. Is living a life with job, wife, kids, bills a settled & therefore

disciplined way of living? Perhaps it is for you, for some. For others it may

be just the opposite. You lived the way Kerouac & Co. did but recognized how

destructive it was. Fine. Destructive for you Destructive for them. Perhaps.

Does that negate Kerouac & Co. in any way? Perhaps from your own experience &



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