Kerouac....

 

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:33:19 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      This silly canonical issue

 

I, for one, would love to see more mention of Bukowski and lots of

others.  What is bugging me is that every month we get some post from

another sophmore who has just discovered someone and wants to know if

they is or if they isn't "beat".

The problem with "beat" as literary term, even more than most such

labels is that it is really a social tag for a group of friends.

Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they

were friends and that at least Ginsberg admired WB--I'm not sure WB

admires anybody.  Ginsberg and Kerouac seem to me to share some things

in their vision. Some Beats do, some don't.

I'd be much more interested in the influence of Kerouac or Burroughs on

Hunter Thompson (I would see more WB) than in whether of not Hunter is

"beat."

Good writing, thank God, surpasses labels and the dogma of any movement.

 I don't think the writers wasted any time wondering whether or not they

were Beat.

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:05:53 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Robert Peltier <Robert.Peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

 

>In a message dated 96-08-28 11:25:31 EDT, Peltier write:

>

><< MTV is commerce imitating art.  There is nothing new or revolutionary

>about

> the style or techniques of rock video; film and other media were employing

> these techniques many decades ago.  If you see "quick cuts, moving

> hand-held camera, zooms" etc in a video and then see them in film, you

> cannot assume that the video came first.  Cinema Verite, using hand-held

> cameras, predates rock videos.  A 1960s television show called "I Spy" was

> famous for its zooms.  Look at the Beatles films (which were influenced by

> earlier films).  MTV videos (with a few exceptions) are just cheap

> imitations of what came before them.

>

> When I hear "MTV generation," it is usually in a context that denigrates

> that generation (unfairly, I think, since I believe "generation" is a false

> construct to simplify and commodify targets for ad agencies).

>

> The "Beat Generation" (again, I'm using this term only as a comparison,

> since I don't believe in it), was a group of people experimenting, pushing

> at boundaries, trying--with various levels of success--to create something

> new.  Critics may argue whether they were successful in their attempts to

> create art (I happen to think they were successful), but their attempts

> cannot be denied. >>

>

>HEY HEY HEY

>

>It sounds like a case of competing elitisms here.

>

>Was "The Beat Generation" not commerce and art?  The GREAT lengths to which

>AG went to get Burroughs published.... was WSB not creating art, and AG

>turning it into commerce????

 

You're trying to make me a straw man here.  I never said commerce and art

were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis.  If Kerouac had

only been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his

first novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for

many years.  He didn't.  He took chances.  (And, yes, there is a thing

called "art")

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:29:51 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Sean McDonnell <smcdonne@DOLPHIN.UPENN.EDU>

Subject:      commerce

In-Reply-To:  <v01520d01ae4ba7a08070@[157.252.97.38]> from "Robert Peltier" at

              Aug 29, 96 04:05:53 pm

 

so what's so wrong about phony structures and commerce-aiding

labeling...it helps provide confusion and grist in the rebel stomach.

 

s

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:03:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         John Iaquinta <JIaqui2615@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Who is and who isn't]

 

     I saw Barfly shortly after it was released without any knowledge of

Bukowski, having watched it again recently (after reading C.B.'s Pulp), I

recalled a friend having told me that it was largely autobiographical.

 Anyone know if there's any truth to that, I'm shamefuly ignorant of his

personal life.

 

Eternally Lecherous,

John

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:59:12 GMT

Reply-To:     i12bent@hum.auc.dk

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "B. Sorensen" <i12bent@HUM.AUC.DK>

Subject:      Ginsberg records with Paul McCartney

 

This just in from web-zine Addicted to Noise

 

Check it out with graphics at:

 

http://www.addict.com/html/lofi/MNOTW/display-news.cgi?96-08-29

 

>            ----------------------------------------------

>

>            Odd Couple: Allen Ginsberg & Paul McCartney?

>

>

>                 Addicted To Noise staff writer Gil

>            Kaufman reports: In the tradition of William

>            Burroughs and Kurt Cobain, word came

>            yesterday that famed Beat poet Allen Ginsberg

>            has teamed up with Paul McCartney, Patti

>            Smith guitarist/producer Lenny Kaye and

>            minimalist composer Philip Glass to record a

>            version of his 1995 protest song/poem,

>            "Ballad of the Skeletons," first published in

>            The Nation last November. Apparently, Mercury

>            Records President Danny Goldberg caught a

>            Ginsberg reading recently and fell in love

>            with the work, and since Ginsberg has long

>            counted McCartney as one of his pals, one

>            thing led to another and this odd quartet got

>            together and McCartney laid down some drums,

>            guitar, Hammond organ and maracas, Kaye added

>            some bass and produced the single and Glass

>            filled in any gaps on piano. Additionally,

>            avant-garde guitarist Marc Ribot is on the

>            track. As you might recall, Ginsberg had

>            previously recorded with the Clash. One of

>            the best known poets from the Beat era,

>            Ginsberg's best-known work remains the epic

>            "Howl." Not surprisingly, the new single is

>            slated for an October 8 release, in time to

>            stir up a little presidential election action

>            and maybe create the unlikely scenario of

>            Ginsberg sitting down to some early-morning

>            coffee and chatter with Katie Couric and

>            Bryant Gumbel. Yeah, sure.

 

Regards,

 

 

bs

 

Department of Languages and Intercultural Studies

Aalborg University, Denmark

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 16:06:36 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      Kerouac's October

 

Just finished reading Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" last

night. This puts me at the beginning of November 1952 in my

chronological reading of the published Beat canon.

 

"October" gave me a good feeling Kerouac's maturation as a writer in the

18 months or so since he'd pounded out the first scroll draft of "On the

Road" in April 1951. After retyping and revising (and considerable

obsessing over) OTR, he began to seriously pursue his "sketching"

technique in the fall of that year just before going west to move in

with Neal and Carolyn Cassady in San Francisco. In the Cassady's attic

Jack "rewrote" OTR, eventually renaming that manuscript "Visions of

Cody". VOC was of course a tour de force of experimental acrobatics

which ultimately, I think, exhausted (for the time being) Jack's need to

immortalize Neal. "Mexican Fellaheen" (from "Lonesome Traveler")

documents Jack's experiences during the few days between the time he was

dropped off at the Mexican border by Neal and family, and Jack's arrival

at Burroughs' pad. Neal has no presence in  "Mexican Fellaheen".

 

Staying with Burroughs, Jack smoked "three bombers a day" and wrote "Dr.

Sax" in a month. This book turns even further away from Neal's influence

back to Jack's adolescence in Lowell. I finished it last week and found

its brilliance almost blinding, like driving into the sun. Listening to

the 1960 audio recording of Kerouac reading from DS was tremendously

helpful. The text has a density approaching "Naked Lunch", and Jack's

slow, nostalgic reading brought out condensed, multi-layered meaning in

each phrase.

 

The Beat correspondence of the summer/fall of 1952 is bizarre.

Especially Kerouac's infamous raging rant at Ginsberg written the first

week of October. (You know which one I'm talking about. Gee, wouldn't

THAT letter be fun to discuss...)

 

Which brings me back to "October in the Railroad Earth", written in a

flop house on skid row in San Francisco while Jack worked as a brakeman

during October (of course) 1952 and drank Tokay wine. I'm sure the wine

had a lot to do with the relaxed rhythm of the prose, but I also wonder

if, in the year and a half since Jack had pounded out his "great

American novel", created his own "Ulysses" (VOC), and dove deep into his

psyche to produce a fantasy novel of childhood dreams, whether he had

simply gotten to the point where he no longer had to prove to himself or

anybody that he was a great writer. (Although readers of the

abovementioned 10/52 letter may dispute this view.) I believe that at

this point in his career he simply could not NOT write.

 

Comments?

 

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 17:42:56 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject:      Re: Kerouac's October

 

John W. Hasbrouck writes:

 

> Which brings me back to "October in the Railroad Earth", written in a

> flop house on skid row in San Francisco while Jack worked as a brakeman

> during October (of course) 1952 and drank Tokay wine. I'm sure the wine

> had a lot to do with the relaxed rhythm of the prose, but I also wonder

> if, in the year and a half since Jack had pounded out his "great

> American novel", created his own "Ulysses" (VOC), and dove deep into his

> psyche to produce a fantasy novel of childhood dreams, whether he had

> simply gotten to the point where he no longer had to prove to himself or

> anybody that he was a great writer. (Although readers of the

> abovementioned 10/52 letter may dispute this view.) I believe that at

> this point in his career he simply could not NOT write.

 

> Comments?

 

"October in the Railroad Earth" is one of my favourite pieces of prose by

Kerouac and my first exposure to it was the excerpt he read on the CD Box Set...

powerful stuff! this work seems even more impressive when you hear him read it

and catch all the little nuances and inflections... as MEMORY BABE points out,

it doesn't always seem to make sense on the page, but when you hear him read it

or you read it aloud it becomes more coherent... but i think there are just some

wonderful images in "October" - vintage Kerouac to be sure....

 

"...and I go to the wailbar of all the wildbars in the world the one and only

Third-and-Howard and there I go and drink with the madmen and if I get drunk I

git."

 

bfn,

JDL

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:51:34 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeff Taylor <taylorjb@CTRVAX.VANDERBILT.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Re: MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

In-Reply-To:  <v01520d01ae4ba7a08070@[157.252.97.38]>

 

On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Robert Peltier wrote:

 

> >Was "The Beat Generation" not commerce and art?  The GREAT lengths to which

> >AG went to get Burroughs published.... was WSB not creating art, and AG

> >turning it into commerce????

>

> You're trying to make me a straw man here.  I never said commerce and art

> were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis.  If Kerouac had

> only been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his

> first novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for

> many years.  He didn't.  He took chances.  (And, yes, there is a thing

> called "art")

 

An interesting piece on this subject is Burroughs' "Beauty and the

Bestseller" (in _The Adding Machine_) in which he gives advice on how to

write frankly commercial stuff. But he concludes: "You don't sit down and

concoct a bestseller. I've tried. Either the story runs away with you and

gets out of hand and you write what you have to write, or else you strike

lucky and get a subject the public wants anyway."

 

***

Jeff Taylor

taylorjb@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu

                               "Human time is measured in terms of human

                                change. So the most flagrant time-wasting

                                may minimize change and thus conserve time"

***

=========================================================================

Date:         Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:50:03 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Railroad Earth

 

Another vote from a "Railroad Earth" fan--to my mind one of the best

introductions to Kerouac there is and much better if you have heard

Jack's bit from the boxed set.

 

I live within the sound of that piece of track now, and it's nice to

remember Jack and Neal on that train (there it goes) when the SF

Peninsula was so different--when "3 Com Park" was a stock yard and

before redevelopment got ahold of so much of South of Market.  Just

great, relaxed, mature writing.  I try to read it every October.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:13:54 CST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Railroad Earth

 

I recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a world!)

ON disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on the same.

Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might obtain a

copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Wild Boys

 

Hello folks.

 

I just finished reading _The Wild Boys_ for the first time.  Has anyone else

on this list read this novel LATELy?

 

If you have, and would like to discuss it, I'd like to hear from you.

 

William

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:29 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Burroughs admires..........

 

In a message dated 96-08-29 15:35:52 EDT, James Stauffer write:

 

<< Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they

 were friends and that at least Ginsberg admired WB--I'm not sure WB

 admires anybody. >>

 

Well, I can tell you one thing --- Burroughs (IMHO) admires Conrad.  Also

Denton Welch, which is apparent.

 

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:37 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

 

In a message dated 96-08-29 16:15:58 EDT, Peltier write:

 

<< You're trying to make me a straw man here.  I never said commerce and art

 were incompatible, but there _is_ a matter of emphasis.  If Kerouac had

 only been interested in making big money, he would have followed up his

 first novel with another similar, and he would have made a nice income for

 many years.  He didn't.  He took chances.  (And, yes, there is a thing

 called "art")

  >>

 

The Burroughs take from the Adding Machine speaks well.

 

(Thanks to Jeff Taylor for this):  An interesting piece on this subject is

Burroughs' "Beauty and the Bestseller" (in _The Adding Machine_) in which he

gives advice on how to write frankly commercial stuff. But he concludes: "You

don't sit down and concoct a bestseller. I've tried. Either the story runs

away with you and

gets out of hand and you write what you have to write, or else you strike

lucky and get a subject the public wants anyway."

 

i HAD the same quote in mind.  I think that it addresses this topic.

 

Kerouac had no guaranteed way to make a best-seller or better-selling novel.

 I believe that he was doing his best to best-sell, but it's all just

stabbing in the dark.

 

The statement "He took chances." (Peltier) is one I disagree with somewhat.

 He did and he didn't.  Making yourself some sort of celebrity (and playing

celebrity when given the chance) works to insure your success in the vein of

commerce

(rather than making a mark in the canon).

 

"And, yes, there is a thing called "art"....." Well, that varies from person

to person.  Sort of like- there is a thing called truth.  I never said that

there was NOT a thing called "art" (an equally absurd statement) but that I

hate the term.

 

One of the big BEAT GENERATION topics (I would think) would be the successes

of JK, AG, and WSB at MERGING the creative and the commercial (not merely the

marketable but the commercial).

 

I have heard that writing is the most intimate form of communication between

two men, one sitting at his desk, the other seated in a chair.  For these

three men, and others associated with them, it's never been like that.

 

AG and WSB are both old men now, and have gone far beyond the relationship

between writer and reader, delving into other art forms, commercial

enterprises, et cetera.  Kerouac did an immensely personal thing.  He

couldn't stop writing about himself, and his life stories have impressed

many.  It's not merely an "academic" thing or a "literary" thing.  It's a

BEAT thing.

 

If they're a literary movement, are they not the MOST celebrity/commercial

lit movement?   They've been public figures, drawing attention to themselves

in what was a most un-writerly way.

 

*****I thought**** that they were purposefully running COUNTER to academe,

and their exclusion from the "canon" (and their celebrity status) would be to

their liking.  Is it not to our liking? Or would that be saying that it's not

"ART"  (gasp!)?

 

William Miller

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:51:19 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "J.D. P. Lafrance" <J.D._P._Lafrance@RIDLEY.ON.CA>

Organization: Ridley College

Subject:      Re: Railroad Earth

 

Bob Jordan writes:

 

> I recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a

> world!) ON disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on

> the same. Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might

> obtain a copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan

 

i believe you're referring to the "Is There A Beat Generation?" track? that was

originally from an essay Kerouac wrote for PLAYBOY magazine entitled, "Beatific:

The Origins of the Beat Generation" (i believe that's the title) but it is

reprinted in THE PORTABLE JACK KEROUAC book that's out in stores... it's

considerably longer than what Jack read on the box set - well worth a looksee...

 

bfn

JDL

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:13:42 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Robert Peltier <rpeltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

 

>

>"And, yes, there is a thing called "art"....." Well, that varies from person

>to person.  Sort of like- there is a thing called truth.  I never said that

>there was NOT a thing called "art" (an equally absurd statement) but that I

>hate the term.

 

>*****I thought**** that they were purposefully running COUNTER to academe,

>and their exclusion from the "canon" (and their celebrity status) would be to

>their liking.  Is it not to our liking? Or would that be saying that it's not

>"ART"  (gasp!)?

>

>William Miller

>

If you're referring to a rather dated and elitist notion of "art" (current

when Kerouac et al were writing) then I would agree with the first paragraph

above.

But my criterion for art is that it must force us to look at the world in

new ways and shake us from our easy, received perceptions.  I believe the

beats' work did that.

 

And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years.  In my

introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

aesthetics.

 

One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac, the beats, and their

successors, "running COUNTER to academe," changed the academy and became

part of it as a consequence.  I'm not quite ready to make that argument yet,

but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on that subject.

================================================================

Robert Francis Peltier

Lecturer in the Writing Center

Trinity College

Hartford, Connecticut  06106

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:26:26 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>

Subject:      Re: Wild Boys

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

          <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>

 

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:07 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@AOL.COM> wrote:

 

> I just finished reading _The Wild Boys_ for the first time.  Has anyone else

> on this list read this novel LATELy?

>

> If you have, and would like to discuss it, I'd like to hear from you.

 

I'm not sure if you wanted this posted to the list, but hey, why not? When

asked by people I meet why I like Burroughs or what book by him they should

read to be best introduced to his work, I recommend _The Wild Boys_. The way I

look at his work, it is a transitional piece, somewhere between the cut-up

trilogy and the narrative structure of the Cities trilogy.

 

There are Wild Boys running through the rest of his oeuvre disrupting American

power structures, cavorting about sticking it to the military and matriarchal

family constructs, and causing a general ruckus throughout history. We also get

to see the first bit of tenderness from Burroughs with the first of the boys

going on gay 'journeys of discovery' that are littered throughout the next ten

years of his writing. (The golf course scenes are the ones I remember most

vividly from The Wild Boys, along with the green boy and the river).

 

The cut-ups are still present, running through the book, tying it together in

the Penny Arcade Peep Show chapters, so he hasn't abadoned the cut-up method

quite yet.

 

There are also some of the funniest passages Burroughs has ever written in

_The Wild Boys_. The opening bit with the crazy-eyed flower vendor is great,

and the one about the Mother Superior with a strap-on was hilarious.

 

One of the other important things to note about The Wild Boys is the cinematic

structure that has creeped into the work. This comes soon after Dutch Schultz,

Burroughs' failed attempt at script-writing. He eventually conceded that it

didn't work as a film script and released it under the suspect title of "The

Last Words of Dutch Schultz: A Fiction in the Form of a Film Script". _The Wild

Boys_ comes much closer to marrying the two forms (fiction\film) by always

giving a camera's eye view, prefacing each scene with camera instructions

like 'zoom in' or 'close up'. To see how this develops read 'Blade Runner: A

Movie'.

 

You should also read _Port of Saints_ since it was taken from largely the same

material as _The Wild Boys_. PoS contains more actual Wild Boys material than

_The Wild Boys_.

 

Other than _Dead Roads_, _The Wild Boys_ is the Burroughs book I have re-read

the most. Great stuff, a real tour de force by a brilliant author in flux. It

encompasses the best elements of his earlier experimentation, as well as

portending the power and economy of his future prose works. (Note the a propos

adjectives, har har)

 

Cheers,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:37:05 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs admires..........

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

          <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>

 

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:29 -0400 William Miller <KenWNC@aol.com> wrote:

 

> In a

message dated 96-08-29 15:35:52 EDT, James Stauffer write:

>

> << Ginsberg and Burroughs don't (to my eye) share much except that they

>  were friends and that at least Ginsberg admired WB--I'm not sure WB

>  admires anybody. >>

>

> Well, I can tell you one thing --- Burroughs (IMHO) admires Conrad.  Also

> Denton Welch, which is apparent.

 

In _My Education_ Burroughs says that Gysin is the only man he ever respected.

Among the artists he admires one has to include Paul Klee, Samuel Beckett (he

has a picture of him hanging in his bedroom), Jean Genet, Ernest Hemingway,

Hieronymous Bosch, Franz Kafka and of course Jack Black.

 

As for the talk about defining art or establishing its existence, the most

useful and instructive book I have ever seen on the matter is _Feeling and

Form_ by Susanne Langer. If you ever believed that there was something that

unified all the arts, that the aim and processes involved are similar, that

they are all connected by an underlying thread, then Langer takes that a priori

belief and makes it concrete in a powerful and convincing manner. She is a

first rate thinker and gives renewed dignity to the label 'philosopher'.

 

Stay Warm,

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:14:04 CST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

 

Robert Peltier wrote, "One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac,

the beats, and their successors...changed the academy and became part of it

as a consequence." I would have to agree, based on the fact that so many

of our colleagues, myself included, now teach beat classes in the academic

setting.

Bob Jordan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 17:24:36 +0200

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Erik Skjeveland <Erik.Skjeveland@LIT.UIB.NO>

Subject:      Bukowski Poems on CD called "HOSTAGE"

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

          <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@SEARN.SUNET.SE>

In-Reply-To:  <00093BA9.fc@ridley.on.ca>

 

More on Buk's CD "HOSTAGE" which I've been listening to

lately. This is a great reading, his spontainious rejoinders

with the audience being almost better than his poems (ex: ok

you guys, your 6 dollars are shrinking up like a dead dick out

of Norway, under a sheet of snow...these are extras like a

little saliva on the edge of a cunt...).

 

The selection of poems read is great, and most of them in the

humorous vein. Problem is I can't seem to locate most of them

in Buk's Black Sparrow books. A few are from in "Dangling in

the Tournefortia". But most are as far as I can see from other

sources.

 

Can any of you help me locate these poems? Buk does mention

that some of them were accepted by the New York Quarterly.

Makes you wonder how many gems are out there still

uncollected. Gives us something to look forward to. Well

here's the list of poems on the CD, as far as I've been able

to trancribe:

 

- 73 dollar horse

- Jam (indecent exposure on the freeway...)

- What have I seen? (Catullus at the race track...)

- Trouble (photographing a naked mannequin...)

- Competition (farting is a lot like fucking...)

- The secret of my endurance (from Dangling)

- On the hustle (from Dangling)...

- I am a reasonable man (from Dangling)

- Eating the father (planecrash & cannibalism...)

- The 9 horse (beershit and dirty money...)

- I don't need a Cleopatra (in the backyard in his boxer

                            shorts...)

- Hemingway (photograph of Hemingway fat, drunk, and in

             bed...)

- Fan letter

- The drunk with the little legs

- Tour

- The recess bells of school

- A poetry reading (from Dangling)

 

Can anyone give me some clues on these?

 

 

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

the longer I live the more I realize

that I knew exactly what I was doing

when I didn't seem to be doing

anything

but watching a wet fly on the

bar

nuzzling a pool of

spilled beer.

 

-Charles Bukowski: "Betting on the Muse"

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

Erik.Skjeveland@lit.uib.no

University of Bergen, Norway

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:24:36 +0000

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@TEZCAT.COM>

Subject:      [Fwd: Re: Kerouac's October]

 

X-Mozilla-Status: 0001

Message-ID: <3226BB01.3998@tezcat.com>

Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:57:21 +0000

From: "John W. Hasbrouck" <jhasbro@tezcat.com>

X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K)

MIME-Version: 1.0

To: Ted Harms <tmharms@library.uwaterloo.ca>

Subject: Re: Kerouac's October

References: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960830083928.12919A-100000@library.uwaterloo.ca>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Ted Harms wrote:

>

> If you got the time, I'd be very interested in seeing your chronological

> list.  Or if you've pulled it from some other source (A. Charters?), just

> point me to it.

>

 

Ted,

The only list I'm using is a chronological chart I devised of published

correspondence between Kerouac, Ginsberg, Burroughs and Cassady (I also

occasionally include relevant letters to or from such people as Kerouac's

family, John Clellon Holmes, Carl Solomon, Malcolm Cowley, etc.) I basically

include anything I want, but since there's so much material to pursue by

these (my favorite) four Beat writers, there's no reason to go to far afield.

Carolyn Cassady's memoir "Off the Road" has been invaluable.

 

The scheme behind this reading project is that I'm reading the

correspondence, memiors, novels, poems, every bio I can get my hands on, and

essays, all concurrently and choronologically. That is, year by year, month

by month, week by week, day by day, and sometimes hour by hour. Sometimes two

letters are dated the same day, and I have the fun of trying to figure out

which one was written earlier in the day. Example: A while back I came across

two letters written on the same day in 1949 from different coasts by Kerouac

and Cassady respectively. In the Kerouac letter he mentions that he's going

to a party that evening at John Clellon Holmes' pad in New York. In the "The

Beat Vision", (Knight, ed.), there were excerpts from Holmes' journals in

which he describes that party on the morning after. The Cassady letter makes

reference to the time of the letter's composition being late at night. So

there's my chronology.

 

For the novels which cover real events, I make a decision as to whether I

wish to read them during the time at which they were written, or during the

time which they cover, or both.

 

> Also, who are you including in your 'canon'?  This isn't flame bait but

> I'm wondering how many people you're including - obviously, Kerouac,

> Gins, and Burroughs but are you also including Di Palma, Snyder, Welch,

> Corso, Holmes, et al?  (If you are - man, you've done a lot of reading!)

>

I include whatever I want in my Beat Canon. I'm using the word "canon" in the

same way one might use it when refering to, for instance, the "Jimi Hendrix

Canon" (or, for that matter, the "Western Canon"). This means that if someone

wishes to dispute a choice I've made for inclusion, I have to ARGUE for that

inclusion. I've not yet gotten into DiPrima, Snyder or Welch yet, because I'm

only up to November 1952, and none of them are yet on the scene. I may or may

not pursue them extensively when the time comes, depending on whether their

stuff grabs me. By 11/52, Allen and Jack had known Corso for about a year,

but Gregory hadn't published yet, so there's nothing to read.

 

And yes I try to read a lot. My Beat reading project is only a fraction of

the reading I do.

 

> Anyways, I know this is probably asking a lot but if you got the time,

> I'd greatly appreciate it.  I think other people on the list might find

> it interesting (hopefully it won't bring the 'beat cannon' debate), so if

> you post it on the list, no need to reply directly to me.

 

Canonicity debates have only limited interest for me.

 

Thanks for your interest,

 

John Hasbrouck

Chicago

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:23:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Neil Hennessy <neil@SQ.COM>

Subject:      Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] Neil on the make

Comments: To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List"

          <BEAT-L%CUNYVM.BITNET@qucdn.queensu.ca>

 

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:13:42 -0400 Robert Peltier

<rpeltier@mail.cc.trincoll.edu> wrote:

 

> And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years.  In my

> introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

> whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

> I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

> Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

> aesthetics.

What, no Burroughs? ;-) And how is comparing aesthetics 'false'? I'd really

like to see that fleshed out. To claim that studying an author's aesthetics is

spurious seems to me to be a grievous error. All the aspects of an artist's

work stem from their reasons and impulse to make art. By examining those

reasons I find I can develop a fuller understanding of the motivating forces

and vital import that drives their work. What about Jean Genet, who will step

outside of the narrative of his work and make bold aesthetic statements? His

aesthetics are naked and work as a powerful force from _within_ his books.

There are some pretty straightforward self-reflexive parts in _A Portrait of

the Artist_ if I remember correctly, what about those passages?

 

> One could, I suppose, make the argument that Kerouac, the beats, and their

> successors, "running COUNTER to academe," changed the academy and became

> part of it as a consequence.  I'm not quite ready to make that argument yet,

> but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say on that subject.

 

In this vein it would be fruitful to read the introduction to Morgan's Literary

Outlaw which talks about Burroughs' induction to The American Academy of Arts

and Letters. Also look at Genet and his pardon. The French are a lot weirder

when it comes to co-opting those that weigh the heaviest criticism against

them. Genet sets himself up as an outsider in his work and the government

pardoned him because he was an artist. Interesting stuff.

 

Have a fun Labour Day everyone! Going up to the cottage for some reading,

relaxation, and contemplation...

Neil

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:18:38 EDT

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bill Gargan <WXGBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject:      Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 30 Aug 1996 09:33:37 -0400 from <KenWNC@AOL.COM>

 

In a real sense, the Beat movement grew out of Columbia University.  I'm not su

re that I'd agree that it was a purpose of the movement to run counter to acade

me.  Rather, the Academy at the time rejected, for the most part, the values of

 writers like Ginsberg and Kerouac.  English departments then were still under

the sway of the New Criticism.  They tended to ignore

topics like mysticism and spirituality, something that inter

ested Kerouac and Ginsberg.  The question of the Beat role in the canon is an i

nteresting one.  When I was writing my master's thesis on Kerouac in 1972, a Co

lumbia professor who was sympathetic to his work said:  "Why do you want to tha

t for?  Making him part of the canon will be the quickest way to kill him.  Nob

ody will read him anymore."   Obviously, I disagreed.  I think the Beat Movemen

t will have an important place in American literary history and I'm glad that s

o many Beat writers have accepted positions in colleges and universities.  They

've even established their own center of learning -- the Naropa Institute.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:33:31 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Jeffrey Weinberg <Waterrow@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs admires..........

 

Add to the list:

John Giorno

Keith Haring

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 12:24:47 CST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Bob Jordan <enjordan@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Railroad Earth

 

Thanks, I'll look for it. Bob Jordan

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:31:49 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Scott Greenberg <SGreenb622@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Railroad Earth

 

Is Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" the same as the Lonesome

Traveler piece Ann Charters excerpted as "The Railroad Earth" in The Portable

Jack Kerouac?  If so,  why the disparity in the titles?  Is the full piece in

Lonesome Traveler?

 

SRG

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:54:43 -0500

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject:      New Biography

 

 Viking (Penguin) are announcing in their Fall list a bio of JK 'Jack

Keroucac: Angelheaded Hipster" by Steve Turner. Anyone know anything about

this? And do we actually need another biography? What is your favorite bio

anyhow? I rather prefer Jack's Book to the actual biographies...

 

Nick W-W

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:43:30 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Timothy K. Gallaher" <gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Railroad Earth

 

At 01:31 PM 8/30/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Is Kerouac's "October in the Railroad Earth" the same as the Lonesome

>Traveler piece Ann Charters excerpted as "The Railroad Earth" in The Portable

>Jack Kerouac?  If so,  why the disparity in the titles?  Is the full piece in

>Lonesome Traveler?

>

>SRG

 

Yes.  I haven't read the Portable Beat Reader but I would assume it is the

entire piece not just an excerpt, but I couldn't say for sure.

 

Kerouac's title is October in the Railroad Earth.  The railroad earth is the

same thing.  Editors like to shorten things I guess.

 

Lonesome Traveller has the full piece, yes.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:43:10 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@XX.ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Railroad Earth

In-Reply-To:  <009A79CB.44238B5F.7@ALPHA.NLU.EDU>

 

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Bob Jordan wrote:

 

> I recently picked up the Kerouac box set (Kerouac box set? God what a world!)

> ON disc three he reads an essay on the beat generation at a forum on the same.

> Can anyone tell me where that piece was published, and how I might obtain a

> copy of it? Thanks, Bob Jordan

>

That piece published in Playboy is available in

_The_Good_Blonde_&_Other_Stories_.

 

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)266-7067                      Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                        P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586            Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:57:36 EST

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "I'M OFF TO THE MOON FOR A CUP OF SAKE." <breithau@KENYON.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Burroughs admires..........

 

...and cats.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:51:34 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@XX.ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Railroad Earth

In-Reply-To:  <199608301743.KAA10183@hsc.usc.edu>

 

On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Timothy K. Gallaher wrote:

 

> >Jack Kerouac?  If so,  why the disparity in the titles?  Is the full piece in

> >Lonesome Traveler?

>

> Kerouac's title is October in the Railroad Earth.  The railroad earth is the

> same thing.  Editors like to shorten things I guess.

>

> Lonesome Traveller has the full piece, yes.

>

The Lonesome Traveller piece is entitled The Railroad Earth.  There it

first appeared.  The title on the Box Set is October in the Railroad

Earth.  Most of the titles on that set are taken from the text rather

than the original pieces.

 

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)266-7067                      Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                        P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586            Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:20:08 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Denton Welch

 

Sorry I missed the apparent admiration of Mr. Welch, Mr. Miller.

=========================================================================

Date:         Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:26:27 -0700

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: [MTV help?/MTV or video clip?] The Miller take

 

>

> And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years.  In my

> introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

> whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

> I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

> Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

> aesthetics.

 

No women, no people of coulor, and still no "false comparisons of

aesthetics?  If we could all only be so cool.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:12:32 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject:      question

 

I was a member of this group in may-june but went on a summerlong

vacation so did not have access to internet, e-mail, etc. I have two

requests:

1. somebody, toward the end of June when if I can remember that far back

the major issue of discussion was zen and buddhism, mentioned that a

magazine was to have a major article on the Beats, I believe the person

in charge of it mentioned that it was a newyork-based paper - I have

glanced in vain - any body know what mag it was, I believe the issue was

to be August

2. If anything important went on (i.e. events, publications, or even just

interesting disscusions on this list) I would appreciate any update

Thanx

Eric

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 18:38:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         Robert Peltier <robert.peltier@MAIL.TRINCOLL.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Boneheads

 

>>

>> And that "canon" has become much more inclusive in recent years.  In my

>> introductory literature courses (where I tell students that literature is

>> whatever the hell we say it is [we being not us academics, but us readers]),

>> I teach Vonnegut, Ferlinghetti, Ginsberg, Yeats, Keats, Shakespeare,

>> Sophocles, Kerouac, Joyce, etc. without bringing in false comparisons of

>> aesthetics.

>

>No women, no people of coulor, and still no "false comparisons of

>aesthetics?  If we could all only be so cool.

 

Apparently you missed the "etc."  I was making comparisons with the beats

and the old canon.  I also include, _among others_, Wharton, Woolfe, Paley,

Head, Baldwin, Flannery O'Connor, Langston Hughes, Mukerjee, and so forth.

 

But thanks for jumping without thinking, just like a good little fascist.

You've memorized the code words, but I'll bet in your heart of hearts

you're a  dittohead.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:42:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.BITNET>

From:         "M.Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject:      Bukowski Honor In Movie Ending (Not Beat related)

 

Hmm,

 

Just finished watching the movie "The Crossing Guard" by Sean Penn;

with Jack Nicholson, Angelica Houston and Robbie Robertson

(of The Band).  During the closing pan-out there are the words:

 

                "For my friend,

                 Henry Charles Bukowski, Jr.

 

                 I miss you,

                 S.P."

 

Just thought it might be of interest to someone.

 

Mike

 



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