beat list 1997

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:39:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <970523034455_-196546180@emout15.mail.aol.com>

hi jerry: you wrote:

If Jack Kerouac's archives aren't important to you, then hit the delete

button. If we stop talking about this now then the people who want to hide

the truth will have won. And the people calling for this topic to be halted

will have helped silence the truth.

@@@@@@@

and of course the JK archives are very important to me, especially since

seeing the JK tribute CD which contains beautiful art work by JK, which i

have never before seen and wonder how many other paintings there are.

however, i am not into pissing contests or namecalling or any of the other

behaviors which have been flaming the scene of late.

peace

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:50:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Lies, Money, and Videotape

In a message dated 97-05-23 02:41:48 EDT, Gerry Nicosia writes:

<< 7) What financial help has Attila Gyensis received for his DHARMA

BEAT magazine from Mr. Sampas, including Viking/Penguin advertisements that

Mr. Sampas arranged for Viking/Penguin to place there? How much has Mr.

Gyensis earned from working for Lowell Celebrates Kerouac!, which we learned

is partly financed by Mr. Sampas? >>

Dear Gerry,

Can you please call up John Sampas so he can have Viking Books place another

advertizement in my next issue of DHARMA beat.

Thanks for your assistance in this matter.

Attila Gyenis

Editor, DHARMA beat, A Jack Kerouac Publication

PS - For the record, the financial assistance that I have received from Mr.

Sampas

amounts to a grand total of (let me check my calculator) $ 0, nada, zero,

nulla, nothing, zip.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 05:50:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

In a message dated 97-05-23 00:53:30 EDT, you write:

<< Specifically, I wondered if the article(s) in Life might have been written

by Loudon Wainwright II.>>

You may have heard of Loudon Wainwright the Third, his son, who is a great

musician. One of his lyrics:

I'm not afraid of flying

I'm just afraid of dying

I always say you can't fall off an airplane unless it crashes into a

mountain, in which case you can't fall off the mountain.

Farside cartoon: One pilot talking to the other pilot- " Hey, what is that

mountain goat doing up in this cloud bank?"

enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 06:15:46 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: happy fried-day :pome/thought for the day

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970523021835.006da440@smtp.net-link.net>

from _the gift of tongues: 25 yrs of poetry from copper canyon press_

thomas centolella

joy

when it comes back to teach you

or you come back to learn

how half alive you've been,

how your ignorance and arrogance

have kept you deprived -

when it comes back to you

or you yourself return,

joy is simple, unassuming.

red tulips on their green stems.

early spring vegetables, bright in the pan.

the primary colors of a child's painting,

the first lessons, all over again.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:08:22 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: more thoughts to ponder:on debate vs mudslinging,

passion vs aggression

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970523021835.006da440@smtp.net-link.net>

quotation from _dharma art_ by chogyam trungpa

re: basic goodness

"what makes us blind? aggression makes us blind, so that we can't create

visual dharma. what makes us deaf? aggresion creates deafness, therefore

canot be produced. and because of aggression, dharma touch, dharma smell,

or dharma taste also cannot be produced. to use an american idiom, when we

are uptight, we are being aggressive. we are so disatisfied with ourselves,

our world, and our work that we begin to feel that everything is worthless.

or at the least, we feel that some things are worthless while other things

might have some worth. we pay more attention, and take things so

personally, that when any negativity occurs in our lives, we get aggressive

and uptight. on the whole, we could say quite confidently that aggression

makes us blind and deaf, so we cannot produce a work of art, let alone

anything else. we cannot run our lives. aggression makes us dumb mutes, so

we become like vegetables. aggression might produce a so-called

extraordinary work of art, but art produced in such a way pollutes the

world, rather than producing something refreshing and healthful.

the purpose of dharma art is to try to overcome aggression. according to

the buddhist vajrayana tradition, if your mind is preoccupied with

aggresion, you cannot function properly. on the other hand if your mind is

proccupied with passion, there are possibilities...

when you are in a passionate state you begin to like the world, and you

begin to be attracted to certain things--which is good. obviously,such

attraction also entails possessiveness and some sense of territoriality,

which comes later.But straightforward, pure passion--without ice, without

water, without soda--is good. it is dinkable it also food; you can live on

it. it's quite marvelous that we have passion, that we are not made purely

out of aggression. ..without pasion, nothing can be experienced; nothing

can be worked on. with aggression, we have bad feelings about ourselves:

either we feel tremendously righteous, that we are the only ones who are

right, or we feel pissed off that somebody is destroying us. that is

pathetic. it prevents us from seeing the basic goodness."

_______

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:05:02 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

At 03:44 AM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Derek, Marie, Lisa, et al...

>I agree a lot of this is distasteful. I agree too much of it is juvenile.

>But it is serving a very large purpose.

>Look at who does *nothing* but shout and moan. The very same people who

>refuse to answer honest questions. These people have raised the level of

>rhetoric time and time again because they have no legitimate argument to

>make. Now Chaput is calling for a truce.

****a man can't win can he? I think he is fed up with this that's all. I

wouldn't say he's "beaten."

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:31:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: pre-Beat, post-Beat, and Beat

In-Reply-To: <3385138E.C81E3784@scsn.net>

On Thu, 22 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Has this list explored the ancestors to the beats?

Another idea -- has this been discussed yet? -- is the post-Beats. Yeah we

can debate about whether or not the Beat Generation ended when Kerouac

appeared on the Tonight Show or death of Ginsberg or whatever, but out of

all the literary movements since (and what are the big ones?), who out there

have been clearly influenced by the Beats?

For one, there seems to be a new cyber-psychedelic movement of writers

emerging in this decade, with Howard Rheingold, Terence McKenna and Douglas

Rushkoff being the first to come to mind, and they seem to be directly next

in line with Tim Leary & Albert Hoffman, decending down from the Whole Earth

60s, also heavily borrowing from Alan Watts philosophies with a hefty dose

of (non-Beat) tech reporting a la Steven Levy's _Hackers_ thrown in for good

measure.

What else post-Beat is going on, someone care to tell me. I always thought

Bret Easton Ellis took the structure of _Visions of Cody_ to heart when he

wrote _The Rules of Attraction_ (one of his finest works). I wonder what

he'd say about that.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:35:33 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: rants raves and other quandries

At 02:05 AM 5/23/97 -0700, Lisa Rabey wrote:

>This is NOT about censorship, book burning or anything else.

>Its about common sense and having MANNERS. I am

>NOT the only one who feels this way, but I may be the

>most vocal.

Hey Lisa et al,

I don't believe the issue is "censorship." Nobody wants

the estate/papers discussion to end (major part of Kerouac

history). I think the general plea has been for the

mean, sarcastic, cheap-shots to be done in private

e-mail. This isn't censorship, it is a request that people

stick to the facts and be respectful of one another. We

may not all agree on things, but were does meaness,

sarcasm and daggers get us, NOWHERE! Just back into

a stupid repetative cycle of bullshit. Just my feelings.

Flame away...

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:39:58 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: more thoughts to ponder:on debate vs mudslinging,

passion vs aggression

At 07:08 AM 5/23/97 -0400, Marie wrote:

> quotation from _dharma art_ by chogyam trungpa

Thanx Marie!!

Mike

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:43:50 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

At 05:39 AM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:

>hi jerry: you wrote:

>If Jack Kerouac's archives aren't important to you, then hit the delete

>button. If we stop talking about this now then the people who want to hide

>the truth will have won. And the people calling for this topic to be halted

>will have helped silence the truth.

>@@@@@@@

>and of course the JK archives are very important to me, especially since

>seeing the JK tribute CD which contains beautiful art work by JK, which i

>have never before seen and wonder how many other paintings there are.

>however, i am not into pissing contests or namecalling or any of the other

>behaviors which have been flaming the scene of late.

>peace

>mc

>Marie, there are many more beautiful paintings by Jack. I have seen some

and they are AMAZING I am not sure exactly how many but a good guess would

be over 40, John is talking about publishing that book as a large format

color book of paintings. That is one I am really looking forward to. Phil

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:42:35 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Michael L. Buchenroth" <mike@INFINET.COM>

Subject: Self-Publishing Links

In-Reply-To: <l03020900afaad598f81e@[206.25.67.101]>

In "NetGuide" magazine, June 1997, p 46, they list three interesting urls

of self-publishing companies, etc. I visited all three sites and the

links work great.

First, www.electriciti.com/fmcnet/spp.htm dedicates

itself to listing, publishing, and selling strictly self-published titles.

Second, www.web-star.com/alternative/books.html welcomes you "to ABS Small and

Self-Publishers. Each book is vividly presented for your review...it's

almost like browsing in a bookstore. You can easily locate books by List

of Book Categories or you can Search our Site. Books may be ordered

On-Line, by FAX or by Mail. . ."

And third, www.digitalbooks.com "is one

of the Internet's first totally digital book publishing and distributing

companies. We plan to carry a wide collection of fiction, non-fiction,

technical, and hypermedia books; all of which will be available online and in

digital form . . .We accept payment via the First Virtual (TM) Internet

Payment System . . ."

Beat-L seems to have many readers who self-publish,

own small publishing houses, hope to self-publish, or otherwise

have interests in publishing, etc. I just want to share these "NetGuide"

reviewed links with BEAT-L readers...

By the way, "NetGuide" listed Levi Asher's "Literary Kicks" site in their

"Hot List," a page dedicated monthly to listing web sites "definitely

worth checking out," last winter. I believe they listed his site in

either the February or March, 1997 issue--I forget now. (I still have issue

if anyone wants that detail.) My point, though, remains, if

"Netguide" lists Levi's site as hot, then their opinions must be right on

the money! Becuz Levi maintains one of the most incredible sites on the web!

Period!

Thanks...

Michael L. Buchenroth

mike@buchenroth.com

www.buchenroth.com

To view

Columbus' Electronic Literary Magazine

go to

www.buchenroth.com/magazine.html

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:02:06 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

Attila,

Thanks for the tip of the hat to Ol' Loudo the third. Loudon III is

a terrific songwriter. On his latest CD, "Grown Man" the song "Cobwebs"

actually deals with a Beat topic ...sort of...like, at least I think so....

first part of lyrics below.

His father wrote for Life and I can remember in the late sixties,

shortly after I'd become a fan of LW III, seeing LW II's name appearing over

an article in Life magazine - I think about Woodstock!

I missed the II / III deifference and thought "Wow!" this great

songwriter also writes for Life magazine!! Fooled again. His father was a

good lyricist actually. LW III's album "History" came out shortly after his

father's death and has a very good bluesy ballad that his father had written.

Honest everyone...there is Beat content here; read on....

Antoine

******************

"Cobwebs" starts off:

Well it stumbles and it falls off of almost every tongue

Give a listen and you will hear

It's lurkin' like a land mine

In almost every sentence

It's an assault to my mind's ear

Yeah it might have started back with Jack Kerouac

Probably more than likely it was Maynard G.Krebs

It's the four-letter word that used to mean "as if"

And the meaning's covered in cobwebs

Cobwebs

Used to be a preposition

Then it was a conjunction

Now it's used as an audible pause

Oh I hate it when I hear it

Especially when I say it.....

.......with several more uses of Kerouac's name in refrains.

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:12:13 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: pre-Beat, post-Beat, and Beat

Michael Stutz wrote:

> On Thu, 22 May 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > Has this list explored the ancestors to the beats?

> Another idea -- has this been discussed yet? -- is the post-Beats. Yeah we

> can debate about whether or not the Beat Generation ended when Kerouac

> appeared on the Tonight Show or death of Ginsberg or whatever, but out of

> all the literary movements since (and what are the big ones?), who out there

> have been clearly influenced by the Beats?

> For one, there seems to be a new cyber-psychedelic movement of writers

> emerging in this decade, with Howard Rheingold, Terence McKenna and Douglas

> Rushkoff being the first to come to mind, and they seem to be directly next

> in line with Tim Leary & Albert Hoffman, decending down from the Whole Earth

> 60s, also heavily borrowing from Alan Watts philosophies with a hefty dose

> of (non-Beat) tech reporting a la Steven Levy's _Hackers_ thrown in for good

> measure.

> What else post-Beat is going on, someone care to tell me. I always thought

> Bret Easton Ellis took the structure of _Visions of Cody_ to heart when he

> wrote _The Rules of Attraction_ (one of his finest works). I wonder what

> he'd say about that.

as the resident illiterate on the Beat-L, i think that geneaology - both

backwards and forwards -- seems an interesting subject. If we consider

the influences of the Big 5 or Big 15 or whatever one would choose, it

would be interesting to see what authors present common threads between

them and which do not. i think that all of this information would be

fascinating and would help me in developing my MUST READ lists among

other things i'm sure.

in looking forward, i would guess, the process would be similar. though

probably more difficult in a way. but i still like the idea of this

direction as well.

i often joke about being illiterate. it is only half joke. for one

reason or another, i was not able to read literature until probably the

past three years or so. before that i could count the books on fingers

and toes. my bookshelves are overflowing with non-fiction books that

all lead through a back alley to the types of literature which this list

discusses. hence, the idea of tracing and learning is a wonderful

thought to me.

but, i'll definitely be a lurker on this. I might be able to throw in

two cents when the conversation turns to Pascal or Heidegger but when it

is in the vein of literature i will be a wide-eyed student.

hoping to learn

david rhaesa

salina, kansas

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:41:52 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services"

<PAUL@LOUISVILLE.LIB.KY.US>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow

The Mean People/Nice People Suck/Swallow thread so violated my alleged

Christian-Judeo ethics that my friends said I ran naked and screaming around

my office and was placed under involuntary psychiatric care for 48 hours.

While I was in the hospital I wrote the following, although I have no memory

of doing so. Apparently this is channeled material and therefore sacred.

Paul

********************************************************************************

DENIAL AIN'T JUST A RIVER...

whatever you do

don't kill yrself

be a victim

let them torture you

lie to you

call you names

let them smile

as they twist

yr nipples and

throw rotten vegetables

throw up

endure the pain

endure the cramps

ulcers

parasites

indigestion

headaches

tumors

the size of cincinatti

get into yr pain

it's natural

it's there for a reason

pain is good

pain is our friend

just don't do

the dr. kevorkian thing

life is beautiful, dammit

pull yrself up

by the bootstraps

stand in the fire

knees together

feet apart

suck up to people

you can't stand

apologize for things

you didn't do

kiss ass

right on the mouth

come out of the closet

when you weren't even in

to begin with

start at the bottom

claw your way

to the top

don't just delay gratification

forget about it all together

stay with it

stay miserable

stay hungry

stay detatched

stay out of touch

as a matter of fact

don't touch

don't touch anyone

don't let them touch you

don't touch it

for gods sake

don't touch it

take cold showers

get out of the bathroom

as soon as possible

don't inhale

don't drink the water

don't ask

don't tell

don't call

don't write

don't think

don't trust anyone

don't pick it

it'll never heal

don't talk about it

it only makes it worse

believe that constipation

absolves responsibility

believe that which does not kill you

makes you bite down harder

embrace the dark

black hole

of the soul

it's good for you

makes hair grow

on yr chest

what's the matter

with you anyway?

you think yr different?

you think yr special?

you must have done something

to bring this on

yr being punished

for something

you thought you got away with

when no one was looking

well guess what?

god was looking

god can see through walls

god can see into yr heart

god knows when you are sleeping

he knows when yr awake

so get over it

get a job

get a life

get a raison d'etre

and remember

it's all karma

it's all in the genes

it's all been done before

relax

or i'll kill you

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:51:34 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: a calm request

In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970523124350.006ac734@pop.tiac.net>

>>Marie, there are many more beautiful paintings by Jack. I have seen some

>and they are AMAZING I am not sure exactly how many but a good guess would

>be over 40, John is talking about publishing that book as a large format

>color book of paintings. That is one I am really looking forward to. Phil

Phil: thanks for the information. could you provide updates if and when?

that one painting with wash out hanging and angel in sky just knocks me

out, brings dr sax directly into my heart's memories of such neighborhoods

and all.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:52:57 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow

Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info Services wrote:

> The Mean People/Nice People Suck/Swallow thread so violated my alleged

> Christian-Judeo ethics that my friends said I ran naked and screaming around

> my office and was placed under involuntary psychiatric care for 48 hours.

> While I was in the hospital I wrote the following, although I have no memory

> of doing so. Apparently this is channeled material and therefore sacred.

> Paul

*******************************************************************************

> DENIAL AIN'T JUST A RIVER...

> whatever you do

> don't kill yrself

> be a victim

> let them torture you

> lie to you

> call you names

> let them smile

> as they twist

> yr nipples and

> throw rotten vegetables

> throw up

> endure the pain

> endure the cramps

> ulcers

> parasites

> indigestion

> headaches

> tumors

> the size of cincinatti

> get into yr pain

> it's natural

> it's there for a reason

> pain is good

> pain is our friend

> just don't do

> the dr. kevorkian thing

> life is beautiful, dammit

> pull yrself up

> by the bootstraps

> stand in the fire

> knees together

> feet apart

> suck up to people

> you can't stand

> apologize for things

> you didn't do

> kiss ass

> right on the mouth

> come out of the closet

> when you weren't even in

> to begin with

> start at the bottom

> claw your way

> to the top

> don't just delay gratification

> forget about it all together

> stay with it

> stay miserable

> stay hungry

> stay detatched

> stay out of touch

> as a matter of fact

> don't touch

> don't touch anyone

> don't let them touch you

> don't touch it

> for gods sake

> don't touch it

> take cold showers

> get out of the bathroom

> as soon as possible

> don't inhale

> don't drink the water

> don't ask

> don't tell

> don't call

> don't write

> don't think

> don't trust anyone

> don't pick it

> it'll never heal

> don't talk about it

> it only makes it worse

> believe that constipation

> absolves responsibility

> believe that which does not kill you

> makes you bite down harder

> embrace the dark

> black hole

> of the soul

> it's good for you

> makes hair grow

> on yr chest

> what's the matter

> with you anyway?

> you think yr different?

> you think yr special?

> you must have done something

> to bring this on

> yr being punished

> for something

> you thought you got away with

> when no one was looking

> well guess what?

> god was looking

> god can see through walls

> god can see into yr heart

> god knows when you are sleeping

> he knows when yr awake

> so get over it

> get a job

> get a life

> get a raison d'etre

> and remember

> it's all karma

> it's all in the genes

> it's all been done before

> so

> relax

> or i'll kill you

psychiatric care is a great place to get insights and nice poetry and

all that. be careful not to entrust the staff with the writings while

you're there. it is easy to find out that they reached the incinerator

while the sedatives turned creativity into zombiehood. many many many

notebooks and collections of notes have gone that way from my anecdotal

personal experience.

i love the poem

david rhaesa

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:55:57 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: DENIAL AIN'T JUST A RIVER...

In-Reply-To: <970523094152.5e1b@louisville.lib.ky.us>

ok paul,

i am now ready to bear yr children.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:22:42 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

>Phil: thanks for the information. could you provide updates if and when?

>that one painting with wash out hanging and angel in sky just knocks me

>out, brings dr sax directly into my heart's memories of such neighborhoods

>and all.

>mc

>That painting is Old Angel Midnight...note the clock at midnight and the

angel and the crosses in the windows...Kerouac echoes the ghost shape with

the wash on the line..the building in the background with the clock is

Lowell City Hall.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:12:44 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Dixon Edmiston <DIXCIN@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: more thoughts to ponder

Yes, many thanks, marie

Dixon

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:17:07 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow (or I'll kill you)

In-Reply-To: <970523094152.5e1b@louisville.lib.ky.us>

At 6:41 AM -0700 5/23/97, Paul McDonald, TeleReference LA, Main Info

Services wrote:

> so get over it

> get a job

> get a life

> get a raison d'etre

> and remember

> it's all karma

> it's all in the genes

> it's all been done before

> so

> relax

> or i'll kill you

yes, it's been a while since I've had sex too, but seriously, swallowing is

nothing to commit murder over. <oh my!> I'm new to this list, so you'll

forgive me for asking the following, but::

What are the best sex scenes in beat history/literature?

cheers, Douglas

<<"what do they call that spot

at the base of the neck?

right there, I want it"

(quasi-ralph fiennes

_english patient_)>>

> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:29:24 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject: Re: Nice people swallow (or I'll kill you)

In-Reply-To: <l03020904afab564dac1e@[198.5.212.108]>

On Fri, 23 May 1997, runner911 wrote:

> What are the best sex scenes in beat history/literature?

Few weeks ago, on one of the warmer nights in early May, I was reading

Ginsberg's _Journals Mid Fifties_ and the passage where Peter O cornballs

him for the first time (or was it the other way around?) in their tiny room

where Peter's younger bro was asleep in the bed next to them, Peter

whispering "I love you" just after orgasm or something like that.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:33:04 CDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Wes Lundburg <wlundburg@MAIL.FF.CC.MN.US>

Subject: Open Letter to Mr. Nicosia

Mr. Nicosia:

I applaud your willingness to back off. That will (if my read on Anstee and and

others is correct) require a great deal of restraint on your part. It is partly

for that reason that I am writing: to encourage you in your restraint.

You said that you have been driven to defend yourself and your professional

integrity. I don't think you need to worry about that. You've more than

substantiated your side of the story, and your professional integrity is (IMO)

in tact. As you have pointed out, your accomplishments only contribute to your

reputation. Many of us have read your work, and our impression of that work

goes a long way as well.

You said that you feel the other side has "won." In what sense? Your stopping

now at least keeps you from "losing" the battle with those who are more neutral.

And what would you have to gain with those who, as you say, "lie" and bend the

truth, and know damned well what they're doing. Why try to convince them? Talk

about pissing into the wind.... You say you've taught (I'm tenured faculty at a

community college); then you should know that sometimes you fight battles, are

in the right, and still feel as though you haven't really convinced anyone.

That's standard politics. I hate it; you probably do, too. But we're stuck

with it: Sometimes we just can't get closure in a situation. We go on.

I'm glad you're moving on to other topics, Mr. Nicosia. As Mr. Bealieu said,

we're glad you're here and look forward to your contributions to beat-l. This

is a weird kind of community in cyberspace. Sometimes I love the list, and

other times I don't... but my family is kind of like that, too. There's a

certain wisdom in knowing when to drop an issue.

All the best, and with immense respect,

---Wes Lundburg

wlundburg@mail.ff.cc.mn.us

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:35:39 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>

Subject: Influences on the Beats

Hello all, this is my first post - having lurked for awhile, would like

to say that there's many, many interesting posts and posters out there,

including (but certainly not limited to) the estate controversy.

About Beat precursors-

I think that this is a fascinating topic, mostly because the literary influences

on the

Beats are quite varied, considering how close the actual writers were

personally.

The Kerouac-Wolfe connection, for one, is quite distinct, especially if you look

at Jack's early work. It's fun to sit down and read Wolfe's first novel, Look

Homeward, Angel,

and Kerouac's first, Town and the City, and see just how much Kerouac looked up

to Wolfe

in those days - Kerouac's flowery prose about Lowell echoes Wolfe's about

Asheville

rather strikingly. (Interesting, too, because by the end of the book, Kerouac

begins to find

his own voice as opposed to imitating Wolfe's - but there are times where he

seems to jump

back and forth from sentence to sentence.) Seems that Jack even looked up to

Wolfe so much that

he created a fictional family for himself in T&C that resembled Wolfe's real

family, w/ 3 sisters and

3 brothers.

Temperamentally, too, apart from the generational differences, I think the two

had a lot in common. Wolfe

was always looking for a woman to provide for his needs so that he could get

down to writing, same as Jack.

(If anyone's interested, there's an excellent biography of Wolfe by David

Donald, same author that just

wrote one about Lincoln, that's well worth checking out.)

Ginsberg, although he learned much from Whitman and Blake philisophically,

always seemed to me

to be most influenced by William Carlos Williams stylistically. I think Williams

would fit into the

category of a "working class poet"; the fact of his being a doctor influenced

his poetry immensely,

and his efforts to capture the "American experience" and "American voice"

directly through poetry

was something Ginsberg admired deeply, I think. Jack mentions Williams

occasionally, but doesn't talk

about him all that much - perhaps just the difference between writing prose and

poetry, I'm sure someone

can speak to this more intelligently than I.

Burroughs, of course, is a whole another ballgame, and I'd be interested as well

in hearing what people think

influenced him.

In any case, this is just some food for thought - I hope this sparks some

discussion, as I know

many people out there are well qualified to speak about this.

Mark Noferi

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:48:31 -0400

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Subject: Wow!

Has this list explored the ancestors to the beats? I see a "line" from

Thoreau (sp) vs Emerson; Wolfe vs ????, Kerouac vs Vidal, Dylan vs

anyone, etc. There seems to be a thread that runs through "beat" side

of literature that is inherited into and by working class poets. Has

anyone studied or considered who are its predecessors. Like Gertrude

Stein ? the Bohemians? I am just curious.

Peace,

Bentz

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:58:29 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Levi Asher <brooklyn@NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Clarify this situation

In-Reply-To: <33852F18.F1C87288@scsn.net> from "R. Bentz Kirby" at May 23,

97 01:46:00 am

Some lawyer wrote:

> I will not make public, even to Nicosia any bc mail. And if I were to

> ever get involved with the Nicosia in any legal action, I will post this

> to the group. I do not want anyone to share any thoughts or ideas with

> me, unless you understand that I intend to speak again with Nicosia, but

> will not republish any bc mail to him without your express consent.

> Just a lawyerly warning to try to keep it straight.

Many weeks ago, when Gerry Nicosia first showed up on this list,

I wrote a friendly message saying "Glad to have Gerry N. here,

but I hope we'll talk about things other than estates and wills,

and that we'll resist all getting dragged down into the legal

mire together and ruining the friendly atmosphere of the list".

Now half of us hate the other half, and now we've got a lawyer

telling us to all watch our words.

Way to not get dragged into the mire, guys ...

I'm *this* close to hitting "unsubscribe" -- the only thing

that's stopping me is that I know Bill Gargan worked hard

putting this list together and I think it's really pathetic

the way a few people are shitting all over it, and I don't

want to give up hope just yet that the list won't survive.

Not that the legal material isn't relevant (but *WE GET

THE POINT ALREADY*) and not that the personal material

doesn't have some entertainment value (mostly as sick comedy).

But enough is enough. It's time to stop. And about

lawyers -- I wouldn't hang out at a party where a lawyer is

standing there saying "watch your words everybody" and

I don't intend to hang out at a mailing list where this

is happening either.

------------------------------------------------------

Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

(the beat literature web site)

Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

(my fantasy folk-rock album)

###################################

"Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

-- Bob Dylan

-----------------------------------------------------

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:25:42 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Clarify this situation

Levi Asher wrote:

> Some lawyer wrote:

> > I will not make public, even to Nicosia any bc mail. And if I were to

> > ever get involved with the Nicosia in any legal action, I will post this

> > to the group. I do not want anyone to share any thoughts or ideas with

> > me, unless you understand that I intend to speak again with Nicosia, but

> > will not republish any bc mail to him without your express consent.

> >

> > Just a lawyerly warning to try to keep it straight.

> Many weeks ago, when Gerry Nicosia first showed up on this list,

> I wrote a friendly message saying "Glad to have Gerry N. here,

> but I hope we'll talk about things other than estates and wills,

> and that we'll resist all getting dragged down into the legal

> mire together and ruining the friendly atmosphere of the list".

> Now half of us hate the other half, and now we've got a lawyer

> telling us to all watch our words.

> Way to not get dragged into the mire, guys ...

> I'm *this* close to hitting "unsubscribe" -- the only thing

> that's stopping me is that I know Bill Gargan worked hard

> putting this list together and I think it's really pathetic

> the way a few people are shitting all over it, and I don't

> want to give up hope just yet that the list won't survive.

> Not that the legal material isn't relevant (but *WE GET

> THE POINT ALREADY*) and not that the personal material

> doesn't have some entertainment value (mostly as sick comedy).

> But enough is enough. It's time to stop. And about

> lawyers -- I wouldn't hang out at a party where a lawyer is

> standing there saying "watch your words everybody" and

> I don't intend to hang out at a mailing list where this

> is happening either.

> ------------------------------------------------------

> Levi Asher = brooklyn@netcom.com

> Literary Kicks: http://www.charm.net/~brooklyn/

> (the beat literature web site)

> Queensboro Ballads: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/

> (my fantasy folk-rock album)

> ###################################

> "Tie yourself to a tree with roots"

> -- Bob Dylan

> -----------------------------------------------------

Levi-

Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

The best lack all conviction

and the worst are full of a passionate intensity

WB Yeats from an imperfect memory.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:46:32 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: For Gerry and friends

Well you've managed to be more abusive here than the whole estate battle has

been, haven't you.

For my part, I don't agree at all. I've been on this list for two years and

sat through some really boring self-indulgent crap, so if you don't like a

thread, the delete button is available to you.

I think this match-up, as it moves past the twelve-round mark, has become

fascinating. At first, as Jerry I think said, it wasn't clear which side an

outside observer would be on. But as the same questions keep being asked,

and instead of answers we get wild abuse and ridiculous allegations, I think

this list is getting a feel for what may have been going on over the years

here..

This is an open discussion forum to discuss matters pertaining to the Beats,

their writing and their lives. There have been some wild discussions and

some funky discussions that have had much less to do with the Beats than

what is happening with Jack Kerouac's estate, his books and his archive. I'm

interested in seeing where this goes - nowhere is still a destination - and

I think it's a completely appropriate forum to discuss it in.

Nick W-W

>Everyone's tried to be nice about this estate bullshit. I can't be polite

>anymore. Just shut the fuck up. For fuck's sake, shut the fuckin fuck up

>you stupid fuckin fucks. Form a splinter list so you can continue you're

>childish little rants. You're stifling those with interesting things to

>say. Your: You're a liar. No, you're a liar. Liar. Prove it. Where's

>the evidence. It's all tiresome. I'd like to challenge... you and your

>friends to shut the fuck up. I'll give you two days to finish your little

>squabble. After that, I'm bringing out the big fuckin guns. Peace.

> James M.

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:56:50 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Time magazine-Kerouac ....and Life

If you like collecting Beat stuff, it's very worthwhile trawling through

second hand bookstores and magazine places for old copies of LIFE etc (also

Playboy and similar 'gentlemens' magazines). Certainly you can come across

some of JK's articles in them, and often articles about Beat 'lifestyle'.

Unless the owner is clued in, you can pick these up fro as little as 50

cents each, and there are

fascinating insights into how the writing was received at the time.

Especially about how the Beats (and rock'n'roll and James Dean etc) were

causing the End of Civilization.

Nick

Also, someone else mentioned articles that

>appeared in Life magazine during the fifties about the Beats. If that person

>recognizes themselves I'd like a tip to the date/writer of the article.

>Specifically, I wondered if the article(s) in Life might have been written

>by Loudon Wainwright II.

> Many thanks.

> Antoine

> Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

> "An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

> -- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:45:01 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: to levi and all

In-Reply-To: <199705231458.HAA13490@netcom.netcom.com>

levi, i too have considered leaving list only days after resubbing (off

list for personal life stuff, not controversy). and then i said, no way no

shit. i remember first coming on this list like a happy puppy (and NOBODY

here has to apologize fer street-fighting words flung in all directions by

that whole scene) what kept me on list was to retain sense of humor and NOT

BOW DOWN to the then reigning netiquette that all personal. etc posts be

kept off the mmore academically oriented list at the time

ironically many of those folks (you know who they are), are now chatting

about totally personal posts, which confuse me, and jesum crow (as they say

up here in these parts), watching that particular pendulum swinging back

and forth put a reel nasty crik in me ear and neck i tell you no lie.

but anyway, levi: i refuse to be pushed out or around by this one. we have

ALL worked so hard to build a community that not only discussed beat works

to sharing poetry and memories and bitter/sweet feelings.

i'll continue to post thoughts poems and my occasional soap box oration, as

whole mess is about to implode from gaseous egos involved.

i dont care if i never wrote a published word and dont know the 'right'

people:

i know i have integrity, and when i am gone from this life, i'll leave a

trail of kindlyness behind me, just that is more than enough for me.

fer yr perusal, i have concluded with a few word from ole ezra pound:

LLXI

what thou lovest well remains,

the rest is dross

what thou lov'st well shall not be reft from thee

what thou lov'st well is thy true heritage

whose world, or mine or theirs

or is it of none?

first came the seen, then thus the palpable

Elysium, though it were in the halls of hell,

what thou lovest well is thy true heritage

the ants a centaur in his dragon world.

pull down thy vanity, it is not man

made courage, or made order, or made grace,

pull down thy vanity, i say pull down,

learn of the green world what can be thy place

in scaled invention or true artistry,

pull down thy vanity,

paquin pull down!

the green casque has outdone your eloquence.

"master thyself, then others shall thee beare"

pull down thy vanity, i say pull down.

thou art a beaten dog beneath the hail,

a wollen magpie in a fitful sun,

half black half white

nor knowst'ou wing from tail

pull down they vanity

how mean thy hates

fostered in falsity,

pull down thy vanity

rathe to destroy, niggard in charity,

pull down thy vanity,

i say pull down.

but to have done instead of not doing

this is not vanity

to have, with decency, knocked

that a blunt should open

to have gathered from the air a live tradition

or from a fine ole eye the unquenched flame

this is not vanity.

here error is all in the not done,

all in the diffidence which faltered,

oooommmm

peace

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:02:26 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "M. Cakebread" <cake@IONLINE.NET>

Subject: Re: to levi and all

At 11:45 AM 5/23/97 -0400, Marie wrote:

>oooommmm

Or AG's mantra:

AHH

The way things have been recently it's more

AHHHHHHHHH!!!! {;^>

Mike (who's still hangin' on by his fingernails)

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:34:17 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Remove Me

REMOVE BEAT-L Paul A. Maher Jr.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:37:30 -0500

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

Subject: Boring Anal post (one swear word, one capital letter word,

no swallowing)

I hate myself for doing this, but in response to Lisa's angry post, this is

the BEAT-L rubric I received when I joined the list in June 1995. It's NOT

just a list about Beat Literature, it's an open list about the *lives and

works* of the Beat Generation. I think the estate discussion falls into that

exactly. I think the hostility of the exchange shows us who have not been

involved very clearly what's been brewing for years and years and how

distateful it all has been.

It's also produced a lot of very interesting information underneath the

abuse. We have a substantial reprint list and I'm very interested in

publishing the Kerouac works that have fallen into the public domain. I'm

delighted to see at last the actual list of what archives are at the NYPL.

It must only be a tiny fraction of what will eventually (hopefully) be

there. It's such a pity that Jack didn't live long enough to sort this out

himself. The John Cage archives (or one third of them - he split up

manuscripts, correspondence, and other articles between three places) are at

Northwestern and are so meticulous and so organized and so easy for scholars

to use. I have to say that the list did look pretty meager nearly twenty

years after Jack died, but there quite clearly are reasons for that (good

and bad, I would guess).

I must say I found the suggestion that we as JK fans on the list should be

grateful for what the estate chooses to release and stop whining to be very

insulting. We're not dogs waiting for bones. I'm sure we'll fork out the

readies for Some of The Dharma and that the royalties will be plentiful, but

don't fucking patronize please.

Nick

BEAT-L rubric follows

Return-Path: <LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 15:33:59 -0400

>X-Ph: V3.12@relay

>From: "L-Soft list server at The City University of NY (1.8b)"

<LISTSERV@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

>Subject: Welcome to BEAT-L

>To: Nick Weir-Williams <nweir-w@NWU.EDU>

>Reply-To: BEAT-L-Request@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU

>X-Lsv-Listid: BEAT-L

>Welcome to BEAT-L, an online discussion forum devoted to the study of

>the lives and works of the writers of the Beat Generation, especially

>Jack Kerouac, Allen Ginsberg, and William Burroughs. BEAT-L is an

>unmoderated list open to anyone interested in the Beat Generation.

>Scholars, writers, students, laymen -- all are welcome to join the

>discussion and share their ideas. In addition to providing an outlet

>for discussion of Beat texts, the listserv is intended to facilitate

>scholarly communication and to serve as a bulletin board or calendar

>for poetry readings, announcements of new publications, upcoming

>conferences and other Beat related events.

**************************************************************************

*Nil Carborundum Illegitimis*

It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

Nick Weir-Williams

Director, Northwestern University Press, 625 Colfax Street, Evanston, IL 60208

President, Illinois Book Publishers Association

List Manager, chipub listserv

ph: 847 491 8114

fax: 847 491 8150

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:30:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: So Relax - (or I'll kill you)

A very nice assesment, Paul, of some people trying to tell others "what is

Beat, what is not Beat" and what does or does not belong on this list...

Jerry Cimino

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:32:46 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Truce-Peace

Reply to message from philzi@TIAC.NET of Thu, 22 May

>It is obvious by Lisa and Marie's and others posts that people are sick to

>death of this estate talk. I have been on the list for a few years now and

>have enjoyed talking about Kerouac. It is hard to keep quite when you know

>something is being said that isn't right. Especially for a hot-tempered

>Frenchman like myself. But apparently people have had enough. I am willing

>to call it quits about the estate stuff if everyone else will. Hell even if

>they don't stop. I WILL. Let's talk KEROUAC like the good old days. Let's

>end it all right here and now. No more jabs after the bell rings.Phil Chaput

Kerouac, Kerouac, Kerouac...Kerouac wasn't the only Beat, you know!!!!!

Diane.

This sesame seed is bigger than my head!

--the guy from the McDonald's commercial

Diane Marie Homza

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:52:41 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: The Kerouac Quarterly

I am signing off this list because I find it too distracting to my work. I

am in the editing stage of Vol. I, No. 2 and writing Looking For Jack: The

Literary Influences of Jack Kerouac for publication this summer.

For subscribers to this list, I will sell the second quarterly for $2.00.

Please say in the envelope that you are from the Beat-L list. This offer

will remain for the next three weeks and then will go back to the regular

price of $5.00 (USA) $7.00 (overseas and Canada). For overseas and Canadian

subscribers to beat-L, add $2.00 for postage. Thanks, Paul A. Maher Jr.

You are free to e-mail me privately at Mapaul@pipeline.com for info on

forthcoming publications. Also, Water Row Books can help you if I am unable

to get to you right away. Waterrow@aol.com

Thanks in advance, Regrads to all, Paul again....

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:44:39 -0700

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject: Early Morning Thoughts

Dear Lisa and all my friends at the Beat-List, May 23, 1997

I said I'd write no more, but by the last 40 posts, it looks like

people still have some undigested matters to mull over. I'd like to help

people examine some of these matters.

I promise, Lisa, not to let my anger spill over into angry language

again--regardless of how many bogus charges are brought against me (they

haven't yet accused me of rape or murder, but I expect those are coming soon).

Here are some early-morning thoughts:

1) Mr. Chaput claims his brother-in-law told him it was illegal for

me to sell xeroxes of Kerouac letters to the U Mass, Lowell library, when

those xeroxes were made for private study (they are all covered with my

marginal annotations), used for material in MEMORY BABE, and were included

in a far larger collection of study materials, aimed at helping other

students and scholars to learn more about Jack Kerouac. Would Mr. Chaput

please provide the statute of law that spells out the crime I have

supposedly committed?

2) Mr. Chaput has been brandishing Jan Kerouac's income

statements--as if the amount of money she earned per year had anything to do

with what is being done to Jack Kerouac's archive. BUT HERE'S A QUESTION:

Will Mr. Chaput please tell us where he got Jan Kerouac's income tax

returns? These are absolutely confidential documents--the IRS will not give

them out without an authorized signature. The only other source is Sterling

Lord, who was both Mr. Sampas's agent and Ms. Kerouac's agent. If Mr. Lord

is giving out Jan Kerouac's income statements, he is breaching his

agent-client confidentiality--even if he gives them to Mr. Sampas.

3) Mr. Chaput claims that none of the material he posts here comes

from Mr. Sampas. Yet where did Jan Kerouac's income statements come from?

Also, Mr. Chaput reports the date and time of a phone call Sampas's lawyer

George Tobia made to a SAN FRANCISCO RADIO STATION 2 1/2 years ago, talking

about the warrant for child support that Jan Kerouac sold, privately, to a

dealer to help bring her cousin to New York for the filing of her lawsuit

against the Sampases. How on earth did Mr. Chaput know of that phone call?

I can't imagine his radio is so powerful he picks up San Francisco stations

in Lowell, Massachusetts?

4) We have seen an impressive list of Kerouac materials now in the

New York Public Library, but nobody mentions that the New York Public

Library has been building a Kerouac/Beat collection for the last 30 years,

and that they have purchased items from many different people, including a

large collection from Ann Charters two years ago. At least half a dozen

other U.S. libraries are building Kerouac collections: Reed College

(Portland), Newberry Library (Chicago), Humanities Research Center (Texas),

Stanford, SUNY Buffalo, and Bancroft (Berkeley), among others.

I am happy for what is in the New York Public Library. But it is,

at most, 5% of the entire Jack Kerouac archive. Librarian Rodney Phillips

claimed to me that many of the letters there are in xerox. And as I have

pointed out before, the way to place an archive on deposit is in one body,

at one time, so that all of it may be catalogued together. By "gutting" an

archive, piece by piece, one virtually guarantees that no other major

institution is ever going to pay top price for it again.

Mr. Phillips has limited money at his disposal. He could come up

with one million dollars for the entire archive, but he cannot come up with

hundreds of thousands of dollars for individual manuscripts, which is what

Mr. Sampas has asked. So Mr. Phillips, doing the best he can, buys a few

letters here, a few notebooks there. He hopes that somehow the NYPL will be

able to acquire the rest of the Kerouac Archive. But at the pace we are

going, this piecemeal sale could go on for twenty or thirty more years. Who

is to say that the NYPL will continue to have funding, continue to have the

same interest in Kerouac, decade after decade? AND IF THEY DON'T, WHAT

OTHER LIBRARY IS GOING TO JUMP IN AND PAY TOP DOLLAR FOR A "GUTTED" ARCHIVE?

None that I know of.

Besides, the careful sorting, filing, and cataloguing that would be

necessary for a huge, complex archive like this CAN BEST BE DONE WHEN THE

WHOLE ARCHIVE IS PRESENT AT ONE TIME, IN ONE PLACE. Librarians may find,

for example, that particular breast pocket notebooks were incorporated in an

early version of a certain novel, on one of the many scrolls Kerouac typed

on, but they can only make such comparisons if they have the entire archive

in front of them as they work.

Enough for now,

Best always, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 12:49:38 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jerry Cimino <Bigsurs4me@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: a calm request

To the "General man-hating bitchy "i know more than you" chick...

Lisa, you may think you know more than the rest of us, and God Bless you I'm

sure you do about some things, but that doesn't give you the right to tell

everyone else what to do.

Lisa, if you're getting 500 e-mails a day why don't you figure out a way to

manage that. I'm no tech heavy but I figured out very early on that AOL

allows me to have more than one screen name and this one you see here is

dedicated to the Beat-l only. If a techno-phobe like me can manage that

trick it oughta be a slam dunk for somene who prides herself on her technical

prowess.

Congratulations, Lisa, you're the first person to ever tell me to "Fuck-Off"

on this or any other list. Put's you in very good company with the

ever-mature Mr. Chaput who's very first post to Nicosia included the essence

of maturity "Fuck You Gerry".

Lisa, you amaze me in other ways too. You say you're on "auto-delete" for

all estate related posts and then proceed to tell us everything that is being

said. You are one

amazing person.

With all due respect to you and evryone else calling for the silencing of

this thread - hit your delete keys. Unsubscribe. Do whatever floats your

boat, but don't you dare tell me this topic is not relevant. The tone is

harsh, yes. And no one recognizes that more than me. And you aren't helping

to calm it by telling me or anyone else to "Fuck-Off". But the topic is

relevant as hell.

Jerry Cimino

*************************************************************************

A general person-liking "I don't claim to be better than anyone else" guy.

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:05:06 EDT

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Jim Dimock <juancito@JUNO.COM>

Subject: Influences on the Beats

de-lurking for a moment in the midst of the great estate battle...

Has anyone looked closely into the influence of Lionel Trilling on JK and

AG while they were at Columbia? Barry Miles' bio on AG mainly talks about

how Lionel and Diana helped AG get commited, and other bios are equally

sparse. Anyone have anything else to add?

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:09:25 -0600

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: Re: The Kerouac Quarterly

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970523165241.006a3d48@pop.pipeline.com>

i would love to take a hold of this feal yr offering HOWEVER my $ is

alread in the mail for issues #2 & 3. no if its easier for you to charge

me full price for both issues thats ok. if youd rather extend the beat for

beat-L members to me as well, thats cool too. whatevers easiest.

thanks for the kind offer & i hope maybe i'll see you on beat-L again some

day when the heat has gone down.thanks again

yrs

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:25:07 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject: The Music. . .

Beat friends,

I've started to have a quiet conversation off list with Ms. Laura Moja (of

Ufficio Stampa Teatro Smeraldo http:/www4.iol.it/smeraldo) concerning the

connection between Music and the Beats. Having virtually no hard knowledge

of Parker, Diz, Monk, and the boys, my side of the conversation has been

mostly limited to a few ideas I've been considering about Coltrane. So, I

figured it might be a good idea to drag this list, kicking and screaming,

into the discussion and hope that it might spark at least a side thread for

those who are bored with WWIII.

Antoine, I know you're out there buddy, what can you offer up? What was

about be-bop that so enthralled the entire scene? Don't get me wrong, I

dig the music, but my tastes slip a bit further up the timeline to hard bop

& free jazz. Be-bop seems such a "happy" music, at least the bit I've been

exposed to.

My best to all,

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:06:43 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: PAM <mapaul@PIPELINE.COM>

Subject: Re: Early Morning Thoughts

At 09:44 AM 5/23/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Dear Lisa and all my friends at the Beat-List, May 23, 1997

> I said I'd write no more, but by the last 40 posts, it looks like

>people still have some undigested matters to mull over. I'd like to help

>people examine some of these matters.

> I promise, Lisa, not to let my anger spill over into angry language

>again--regardless of how many bogus charges are brought against me (they

>haven't yet accused me of rape or murder, but I expect those are coming soon).

> Here are some early-morning thoughts:

> 1) Mr. Chaput claims his brother-in-law told him it was illegal for

>me to sell xeroxes of Kerouac letters to the U Mass, Lowell library, when

>those xeroxes were made for private study (they are all covered with my

>marginal annotations), used for material in MEMORY BABE, and were included

>in a far larger collection of study materials, aimed at helping other

>students and scholars to learn more about Jack Kerouac. Would Mr. Chaput

>please provide the statute of law that spells out the crime I have

>supposedly committed?

> 2) Mr. Chaput has been brandishing Jan Kerouac's income

>statements--as if the amount of money she earned per year had anything to do

>with what is being done to Jack Kerouac's archive. BUT HERE'S A QUESTION:

>Will Mr. Chaput please tell us where he got Jan Kerouac's income tax

>returns? These are absolutely confidential documents--the IRS will not give

>them out without an authorized signature. The only other source is Sterling

>Lord, who was both Mr. Sampas's agent and Ms. Kerouac's agent. If Mr. Lord

>is giving out Jan Kerouac's income statements, he is breaching his

>agent-client confidentiality--even if he gives them to Mr. Sampas.

> 3) Mr. Chaput claims that none of the material he posts here comes

>from Mr. Sampas. Yet where did Jan Kerouac's income statements come from?

>Also, Mr. Chaput reports the date and time of a phone call Sampas's lawyer

>George Tobia made to a SAN FRANCISCO RADIO STATION 2 1/2 years ago, talking

>about the warrant for child support that Jan Kerouac sold, privately, to a

>dealer to help bring her cousin to New York for the filing of her lawsuit

>against the Sampases. How on earth did Mr. Chaput know of that phone call?

>I can't imagine his radio is so powerful he picks up San Francisco stations

>in Lowell, Massachusetts?

(note****a tape of this radio conversation has widely circulated from a

source unnamed in California...)

> 4) We have seen an impressive list of Kerouac materials now in the

>New York Public Library, but nobody mentions that the New York Public

>Library has been building a Kerouac/Beat collection for the last 30 years,

>and that they have purchased items from many different people, including a

>large collection from Ann Charters two years ago. At least half a dozen

>other U.S. libraries are building Kerouac collections: Reed College

>(Portland), Newberry Library (Chicago), Humanities Research Center (Texas),

>Stanford, SUNY Buffalo, and Bancroft (Berkeley), among others.

note****Is that not what we as scholars want?

> I am happy for what is in the New York Public Library. But it is,

>at most, 5% of the entire Jack Kerouac archive. Librarian Rodney Phillips

>claimed to me that many of the letters there are in xerox.

note******They are real bonafide letters from Jack's carbon or hand....no

library will buy a xerox letter anyways. Many of the letters I mentioned

were sold in huge chunks and I will publish the dates in the quarterly.

And as I have

>pointed out before, the way to place an archive on deposit is in one body,

>at one time, so that all of it may be catalogued together. By "gutting" an

>archive, piece by piece, one virtually guarantees that no other major

>institution is ever going to pay top price for it again.

> Mr. Phillips has limited money at his disposal. He could come up

>with one million dollars for the entire archive, but he cannot come up with

>hundreds of thousands of dollars for individual manuscripts, which is what

>Mr. Sampas has asked. So Mr. Phillips, doing the best he can, buys a few

>letters here, a few notebooks there. He hopes that somehow the NYPL will be

>able to acquire the rest of the Kerouac Archive. But at the pace we are

>going, this piecemeal sale could go on for twenty or thirty more years. Who

>is to say that the NYPL will continue to have funding, continue to have the

>same interest in Kerouac, decade after decade? AND IF THEY DON'T, WHAT

>OTHER LIBRARY IS GOING TO JUMP IN AND PAY TOP DOLLAR FOR A "GUTTED" ARCHIVE?

>None that I know of.

note**** This is not an unusual phenomenon in depositing archives. Ralph

waldo Emerson's letters, journals, lectures are spread out scantly ALL OVER

THE PLACE.

> Besides, the careful sorting, filing, and cataloguing that would be

>necessary for a huge, complex archive like this CAN BEST BE DONE WHEN THE

>WHOLE ARCHIVE IS PRESENT AT ONE TIME, IN ONE PLACE. Librarians may find,

>for example, that particular breast pocket notebooks were incorporated in an

>early version of a certain novel, on one of the many scrolls Kerouac typed

>on, but they can only make such comparisons if they have the entire archive

>in front of them as they work

note****but, they are not only concerned about K's work in there. They have

Ginsberg's stuff, Louis Zukofsky's, Charles Olson's, Robert Creeley's,

denise Levertov's, Robert Duncan's etc. etc. They do in fact hold a unique

retrospective by chance and not by design of the whole Beat Movement that

can only be enhanced by the objects that are placed there as well as

Kerouac's. All these things will resolve themselves with time. I think right

now it is more important to get these things published that aren't. We could

have easily been denied this when Stella Sampas was alive and did not choose

to publish ANYTHING.

> Paul Maher Jr.....

=========================================================================

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:00:04 -0400

Reply-To: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Antoine Maloney <stratis@ODYSSEE.NET>

Subject: Marie and Ezra Pound ...to levi and all

Marie, (long rambling discussion with lots of twists and turns!)

An apt comment and a perfect Pound commentary! I can't wait for

Lizzie to get home to show this to her. She'll be delighted after listening

to me moan and whine about the estate battle and the recent arrival of a

practitioner of Willie the Shake's least-favorite occupation....(don't mean

you David...you do legal work without being a lawyer right?)

Levi displayed his great experience and insight in his prescient

comment upon the arrival of Gerry Nicosia. I wouldn't really have wanted to

miss it, but it has become so over the top with all the personal attacks,

cheap shots, and general ranting. Politeness and kindness, despite

differences of opinion have - most of the time - been the watchword of this

list. Whenever we have slipped away from that it has become a burden.

Just a speculative comment on the accusations directed at Rod Anstee

- which I guess parallels the same attitude to Johnny Depp's raincoat

purchase. We have heard very accusatory comments made about material being

bought from the Kerouac "archives". Excuse me, but it is completely lost on

me what the sale of a raincoat (nothing in the coat pockets I assume!?!) has

to do with the archives. It's memorabilia and it's interesting, but it's not

part of a literary archive any more than his desk chair, desk, typewriter,

etc. It might be nice to have them in one place all together for viewing,

but it's not in the same league as notebooks, drafts, etc.

Similarly, Rod Anstee was singled out for buying material - books I

assume - from Jack's library. Perhaps if a book was full of dated references

/ annotations it could be legitimately claimed to be a loss to the research

community. But is that the case? I'll bet that it hasn't been the case given

John Sampas's apparent protectiveness towards the Kerouac archives.

Rod is a collector, particularly, of different editions of "On The

Road" - any and all languages, the more the merrier. In one exchange of

e-mails with me he mentioned looking for Finnish and, I think, Malay

language editions and I gave him the e-mail address of a guy in Finland who

ran a great Little Richard webst...really!

I know that Jack Kerouac particularly relished having lots of

editions of his books and I'm guessing that that's the kind of thing Rod

would be very interested in. Again this doesn't sound like pillaging the

archives and all I/we have to go on is innuendo laden comments.

Regarding the estate discussion, I would welcome more of it if only

if the rancour and spite and accusations of conspiracy were kept out of it.

One suggestion I'll make here that would be an excellent and interesting

contribution for someone to make - not me! - is a chronology showing who

died when, who sued when, who married when, etc. in the intertwined lives of

the Kerouac and Sampas clans. Phil's mention of the Time Magazine timeline

put that thought in my head and I've frequently had trouble getting the

sequence of events and intervals of time clear. Gerry Nicosia - you probably

have the most complete grasp of this....

Thanks again Marie for the Pound and to Levi, Jerry Cimino, James

for the Yeats (the new Foster biography is great my wife says), Wes

Lundberg, David Rhaesa and many others for the measured tones of their

contributions. Gerry Nicosia would do well to follow Wes's good advice and

not feel so hard done by. I like having Gerry on the list - but I like

having Atilla and Phil and Paul Maher and the other co-conspirators on the

list as well! I'm not going anywhere and I hope sincerely that Levi, Marie,

Mike Cakebread et al (Al Sublette?) stick around also. I've still got way

too much to learn!

Antoine

Voice contact at (514) 933-4956 in Montreal

"An anarchist is someone who doesn't need a cop to tell him what to do!"

-- Norman Navrotsky and Utah Phillips