beat list 1997

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:39:21 -0500

Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: lets return to the old message system

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what about returning to the old system, or is my server down.

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:53:50 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

> what about returning to the old system, or is my server down.

> p

I agree. The silence is deafening. We had a week this way, all the

fighting has stopped. But a lot of the interesting spontaneity has also

disappeared. I think some people are afraid to join in and some haven't

figured out how the new system works. Rinaldo sent me e-mail saying he

didn't understand what was going on. I tried to explain and I think he

now understands despite my lack of Italian. People who feel they are

getting too much mail can always delete anything they don't want to read.

Let's get on with it again.

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:28:26 BST

Reply-To: Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Tom Harberd <T.E.Harberd@UEA.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Question: WSB and Foucault?

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On Mon, 19 May 1997 09:06:01 -0500 RACE --- wrote:

> From: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 09:06:01 -0500

> Subject: Re: Question: WSB and Foucault?

> To: Multiple recipients of list BEAT-L

<BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

> Thomas Harberd wrote:

> >

> > Does anyone know if WSB ever met (or read) Foucault? It

> > seems that they share many common concerns, especially

those

> > relating to power structures and control. They were

also

> > both homosexual, although that's perhaps a bit of a weak

> > (trite) link. Just wondering...

> >

> > Tom. H.

> > http://www.uea.ac.uk/~w9624759

> > "A Bear of Very Little Brain"

> some overlap but Foucault didn't wrote thick arhealogical

philosophy

> while Burroughs wrote thick novels. it seems this choice

of form is a

> significant difference.

> Foucault was primarily a cannabis partaker. bowl on the

shelf near his

> work table read to unblock writer's block.

> but there are some parallels in methods as with all the

new critics of

> language. Writing was 50 years behind painting and

critical theory was

> 25 years behind Writing.... :)

> david rhaesa

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:26:15 -0500

Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> >what about returning to the old system, or is my server down.

> >p

> patricia, it's still set on personal.

> in my opinon, we did just fine until that particular piece of excrement hit

> the proverbial fan..

> i vote, too

> but alas only you will get my vot

> as my copy/paste thingee is screwed up.

> btw,

> hi

> mc

no problem we can forward,

patricia and David, we took him to the at center sale , an dumpster

kmart expo.

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:48:01 -0400

Reply-To: SSASN@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Arthur Nusbaum <SSASN@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Welcome to BEAT-L

Dear BEAT-L Members:

I have just been connected to this group of Beat enthusiasts by my good

friend Jeffrey Weinberg. I look forward to sharing my experiences with you,

and vice versa. My single greatest Beat experience so far, which will

probably never be exceeded, was my visit, on February 19, 1995, with William

S. Burroughs at his home in Lawrence, Kansas. I think that Burroughs,

Ginsberg, Kerouac and Huncke (who along with Cassady were great influences

on and subjects of the other 3 without leaving us much of their own creation)

are the Mt. Rushmore of the Beat Generation, and WSB is my favorite of them

all, the one whose works I have read and collected the most, have the most

knowledge of and simply enjoy and have learned the most from. He preceded in

age, and exceeded in the depth and breadth of his life and its lessons, all

the others. Indeed, he is one of the key figures in the shaping of this

waning century, and a prophet of the future. The Beats were more

interrelated and inter-referential than any other literary or cultural

phenomenon that I know of, you can't really get into one without

encountering the others, but WSB is a giant among the giants, and

interestingly is the sole survivor among them, though the oldest and not

exactly having been an exemplar of clean living.

I must go now, but I hope to hear more from you and you will certainly be

hearing more from me.

Arthur S. Nusbaum

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:18:16 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system

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At 12:53 PM -0700 6/7/97, Diane Carter wrote:

> People who feel they are

> getting too much mail can always delete anything they don't want to read.

> Let's get on with it again.

> DC

might I suggest you folx set up a "digest" version of the beat-list. This

way every "x" amount of posts, or every 12 hours, or every kilobyte of

messages (I don't know how it's set up), a compact, SINGLE, email is sent

to all the subscribers. Out on the Patti Smith list <ahem> we have both

types. We've had our share of flames too BTW. All will pass.

It'd also be nice to see a web site with a search engine connected to a

beat-list archive. But I'll harp on that another time...

<<back to lurker mode>> cheers, Douglas

> I'll master your language

> the riddle of steel, shall I tell you

> my wave, my wave, my wave, my wave, my wave....

> http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:07:38 -0500

Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs & viruses

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Marioka7@aol.com wrote:

> david (and patricia),

> I'm back from brooklyn, had a good time but remembered why i left in the

> first place. Interesting discussion on burroughs and viruses (viri?). Am

> mega-depressed though i don't know why. Yesterday was my 22nd birthday. i'm

> jealous that you're in burroughs' town. I want to meet him real bad. David,

> you know how much he has influenced me. it's really grey and blah here...a

> good day for suicide. I wish i had some drugs. Oh well, i'll try to cheer

> up and sent you a more interesting letter later today or maybe tomorrow. To

> tell you the truth, i think what i really need is to get laid. Sorry to be

> so crude, but sometimes the truth is that way. Anyhoo, i'm going to go work

> on that. Later, -------------maya

patricia writes

excellant plan , not the sucide but the other.

david yells over from the tub, to just have a strong cup of coffee.

patricia writes

yeh a stong cup of coffee, thats the ticket.

poem

bill

william walks, denim swishing,

cat hairs cling to his cuffs,

throwing globules at the goldfish,

straight at them, like a first pitch of baseball season.

What did the lesbian frog say to the other lesbian frog,

hey , you really do taste like chicken,

Lesbian frog answers,

and how do you know what chicken tasts like?

tweak that, and write back

patricia and david

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:24:16 -0400

Reply-To: "Lawrence M. Ladutke" <lladutke@CUNY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Lawrence M. Ladutke" <lladutke@CUNY.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>

Subject: UNSUSCRIBE BEATL

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UNSUSCRIBE BEATL

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:10:49 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: what's goin' down?

why is everybody suddenly unsubsribing? I hope this madness ends.

I just came back from NYC. How i miss the smell of falafel adn gyros walking

down avenue A at 3 am, dodging dope dealers, inhaling carbon monoxide,

wondering how the guy in front of me got such high platforms put on his

sneakers. Picking up a video at Kim's...watching the guy sitting across from

me on the L nod out like there's no tomorrow. Graffiti poems and

watered-down gin and tonics at Mona's or the Lakeside Lounge. So how's your

writng/painting/filmmaking going?

Guess who Janice is going out with? A frenchman! Weren't you seeing that guy

from that band? Check out my new skirt. Leopard print is so last year. Get

with it. No one's really happy, they just pretend they are. Put on your

face, we're going to the bar. Vague memories of colors through a heroin

haze. Where are all the cool kids? Why did you lie to me? People carrying

combs around in case hairstyles should suddenly change. Comedy or tragedy,

you choose. I heard your mom did it with that actor. I haven't been getting

much sleep, my lifestyle interferes. There's no time or place for integrity

here. You'll only get stepped on. No time for truth, just cause i'm a girl.

Do you wanna fuck me? How many people wanna fuck YOU? Hah! your skirt must

be longer than mine.

That's what you get. She looked like she wanted it.

I went to her apartment, it was all cluttered with stuff---papers, phone

numbers scrawled on the back on receipts. Her boyfriend was about 7 feet

tall, about 2 feet taller than her. Anyway, I gave her the money but she

wanted to talk. Sat me down on the plastic-covered sofa. The doorbell rang

and she looked through the hole as she unlocked it. Some girl walked in with

teeth missing. told me unsolicitedly that she sold condoms for a dollar a

piece cause she got them free at the clinic. That one left, and i wondered

why she had singled me out for a "talk". She was obviously high, cause she

kept repeating herself and her eyes were half closed. she showed me pictures

of her daughters in the half-lit room.

She went to the bathroom, and I slipped a nice set of watercolors that were

lying on the table into my bag. I should paint more. She'll never notice,

and anyway they're probably her daughter's. Sat through another 10 minutes

of pictures, then i finally said that i needed the stuff NOW. she said oh,

sorry, why didn't you say so before? And i decided to leave right away, there

was a bar across the street I could run into to do it. I just remember one

thing she said that stuck in my head:" Once the city gets under your skin,

you never want to leave."

I'm scared that she, of all people, is right. This time.

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:28:40 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: The billy plymell slept here odysy

Comments: To: stauffer@pacbell.net

James:

Let me know if you got my packet yet. Sorry I don't have a Now magazine for

inclusion. Dennis Hopper sent me a collage I reproduced in it. It's about as

scarce as a Zap. Do let me know if Forever Wider wasn't in the packet and

I'll get the one we scanned in the mail to you.

Charley

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Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:10:58 -0400

Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Jeffrey s. Landau" <JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>

Subject: >>>>>>>Unsubscribe BEAT L

>>>>>>>>>>>Unsubscribe

JefLtsTalk@aol.com

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:49:12 -0600

Reply-To: stand666@bitstream.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: R&R Houff <stand666@BITSTREAM.NET>

Subject: Charles Plymell & the Beats

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Hi Charles,

I'm being interviewed by Pulse Magazine and thought you'd get a

kick out of the damn thing. When it hits the racks I'll send you

one. They asked a lot of the typical questions like: influences,

mistakes, friends, Beats etc. They asked me about my long friendship

with Bukowski, and as usual, the big: Did he influence you? I answer

with the usual: Fuck No! We knew each other big deal. Then they ask

about A.G. Were you friends? I answer no, we met a couple of times

he turned me onto a few Beat related things, writers, and we exchanged

some letters. Then they hit me with this one (you gotta love it!)=97

Have you ever been hit so hard you shit yourself? After damn near dying

of laughter, I was finally able to give them this: "Well, I have

taken many blows in my time and I've only been knocked off my feet

twice-once by a refrigerator door, but I can honestly say no I haven't

shit my pants from a punch.

Richard Houff

Pariah Press

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 00:46:56 -0500

Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: good bedroom

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CVEditions@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-06-07 01:49:59 EDT, you write:

> << well this is a nice bedroom you all fixed up here two weeks ago. >>

> David & Patricia

> Hope you drove past the old Rockchalk where S.Clay, Jim & I used to hang

> out.Yeah Patricia, that sinus infectionion is still pounding me. I think I

> got it in Billy's dorm at the Univ. of Montana. Dorm infenctions are

> viscious. It didn't hit that hard until N.C., where I got some antibiotics. I

> hope I didn't leave any trace in Lawrence. Do Check on B. for me. He didn't

> seemed concerned, but I wanted to cut the visit short anyway to get through

> Missourah by daylight.

> Lena, other lines I remember as a kid way out in Gutheryland was.."Who's

> gonna talk your future over/while I'm ramblin in the West?" Always stuck with

> me. My dad used to sing it. I just assumed every kid studied and sang

> Gutherie in school. Wut's happened to our educashun system anywho??

We are all well here, lena's favorite song is this land is our land, her

grandfathers is jack's song Oklahoma hills, she just didn't know the

line. But her favorite music right now is alanis morrisett or someone.

Rock chalk on a friday afternoon is still a great porch gathering.

david and I hit the book stores and he found one of my other boxes of

books , came across wsb's My Education and we are both reading it now.I

now have the four boxes of burroughs stuff going into boxes of acid free

paper but it is too much fun sorting.

b is doing fine, probably short was good as he had some art thing the

next day. Boy you all come by any time. it was fun.

Gargle with 8 oz of very warm water with a teaspoon of salt, gargle

gently and drink water and juice, Bob says hi. lena is asleep now, she

loves the new set up in the basement.

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:10:03 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: List changes

In-Reply-To: <199706061551.AA205262297@lulu.acns.nwu.edu>

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arrgggrrrrhhh!

i agree with nick's thought-filled post. i am constantly cut and pasting my

messages to list all over creation up here in these parts.

bill, you did what was needed at the time, yes. but am also missing the

tumble down acres of list mail from all to all.

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:44:55 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: List changes

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

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Marie Countryman wrote:

> arrgggrrrrhhh!

> i agree with nick's thought-filled post. i am constantly cut and

> pasting my

> messages to list all over creation up here in these parts.

> bill, you did what was needed at the time, yes. but am also missing

> the

> tumble down acres of list mail from all to all.

> mc

As a test post, I just hit, return to sender and all recipients, is

this going to the beat list, I guess the confirmation returns. I use

Netscape and sometimes Z-Mail by Netmanage. If this post makes it to

the list, then while the recipient will get two posts, or you can simply

delete the sender and send it to the beat list, this should revive the

"GOOD" give and take. Maybe some mail programs don't allow you to do

this, and then again, maybe this doesn't work.

Me, I am on the verge of traveling to San Francisco. Once I am there, I

am thinking of hopping onto the Zipper and riding to Seattle, but, I

won't. So, if Charles P. ever ran down the phone number or confirmed

the address of the person for me to contact when I get to San Francisco,

I would appreciate it very much. If anyone else has suggestions on SF,

I am listening. Send them back channel, send them on the list, just

send them.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:19:17 -0400

Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Jeffrey s. Landau" <JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>

Subject: >>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE

>>>>>>UNSUBSCRIBE

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:20:10 -0400

Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Jeffrey s. Landau" <JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>

Subject: >>>UNSUBSCRIBE

Jeff Landau

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:21:49 -0400

Reply-To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Jeffrey s. Landau" <JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM>

Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE

JefLtsTalk@aol.com

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:42:47 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: >>>UNSUBSCRIBE

Comments: To: JefLtsTalk@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Jeffrey s. Landau wrote:

> Jeff Landau

Jeff:

I am not sure, but I believe the address to unsubscribe is:

listserv@cunyvm.cuny.edu

and not the beat list. On the other hand, maybe you are working out

your karma and simply will not be allowed to unsubscribe? Maybe you

should just give into life in all of its wondrous rush, or at least stop

posting unsubscribe messages here. It ain't gonna work.

Best of luck in your quest.

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:02:16 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: List changes

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R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Marie Countryman wrote:

> > arrgggrrrrhhh!

> > i agree with nick's thought-filled post. i am constantly cut and

> > pasting my

> > messages to list all over creation up here in these parts.

> > bill, you did what was needed at the time, yes. but am also missing

> > the

> > tumble down acres of list mail from all to all.

> > mc

> As a test post, I just hit, return to sender and all recipients, is

> this going to the beat list, I guess the confirmation returns. I use

> Netscape and sometimes Z-Mail by Netmanage. If this post makes it to

> the list, then while the recipient will get two posts, or you can simply

> delete the sender and send it to the beat list, this should revive the

> "GOOD" give and take. Maybe some mail programs don't allow you to do

> this, and then again, maybe this doesn't work.

> Me, I am on the verge of traveling to San Francisco. Once I am there, I

> am thinking of hopping onto the Zipper and riding to Seattle, but, I

> won't. So, if Charles P. ever ran down the phone number or confirmed

> the address of the person for me to contact when I get to San Francisco,

> I would appreciate it very much. If anyone else has suggestions on SF,

> I am listening. Send them back channel, send them on the list, just

> send them.

> Peace,

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

I was using the cut & paste version but now for some reason, the paste

part doesn't work and I'm back to typing in the beat-l address. My

version of Netscape does not have a return to sender option. How long

are you going to be in San Francisco? I was going to post my response

soon to what you had to say about about the poetry of T.S. Eliot, and

defend my belief as to why AG is by far the better poet, but haven't

gotten to it yet. Would hate for you to miss it.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:13:26 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: So, I got up this morning and...

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So, I got up this morning and like, all I can see is some rap about

heroin in New York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the

reply button and some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe. And I am

thinking man, give me at least a little flame war. If it wasn't for

David Race, Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this

list would be dead.

What happened to all the folks who said stop the flame wars, I wanna get

off but didn't get off? Where is all this beat stuff you were gonna

talk about if only those other people would stop their ugly talk? Why

is the list dead in the water?

For me, I would rather the flame wars were back in order. By the way, I

still have not heard from Martha Mayo, should I write her back?

Maybe everybody is tired, and Lisa, you can't even look at your nails,

much less work on them anymore while this list downloads.

Well, I guess we ought to get Ken Nordine to record the emaildiots. It

could be about a mail list where nobody posts, instead they all sit

around waiting for some poor sucker like me to flame the whole list and

then they pounce on him and tear him to shreds, like the women in the

Cult of the Goddess do on their rants, and scream, oh please don't hurt

our list. What LIST? Is there any poetry here? Hey Lisa, why don't

you post some poetry?

Maybe we could change the name to the Beat-lurks instead. The return

says over 230 are subscribed, but no posts no posts no posts no posts no

posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no

posts!

Well, I ain't gonna risk getting flamed by this list, no sir, I am

gonna sit right here and if you see this post just remember, Bentz

didn't send it, his evil twin the flame meister did. Hey that

sonofabitch would flame the whole lot of you if I would let him, I mean,

he would do it just to get a response, and if you got angry, he would

LOL at your responses.

Hey have you got one of those evil twin guys or gals inside of you.

Bob Dylan does.

>From Where are You Tonight:

I fought with my twin, my enemy within, 'til both of us fell by the way

Horseplay and disease is killing me by degrees while the law looks the

other way

and earlier in the same song he said:

The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to

explode.

In that last hour of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of

the road.

So there you go folks, are you willing to explode, are you willing to

sacrifice, have you met your twin and fought him or her withing til BOTH

of you fell by the way. What are you going to say.

I have seen the best emailers of my generation silenced by the threat of

disapproval.

They were once posters of poetry, talk lies backstabbing, truth honesty,

big shits and real shits.

But now they have dwindled off into qwerty induced hazes, seduced by

protocol, enslavened by fear of the flame,

And they have died.

Died in the silicone chip world festered by Stanford.

Oh, did any voice ring out?

Oh, did any voice have courage?

Oh, did my return button silence my voice?

Oh, why did they lack the courage, or, is it that they just chose not to

use it.

I want my beat-l, I want my beat-l they chanted like some MTV inbread

beavis and butthead listening to too much Dire Straights.

We got to move these email posts, we got to be flamed, maybe getting a

tarnish on your reputation, maybe get a tarnish on your little poem,

maybe get a bruise on your little ego, maybe get a bruise on your little

head.

Well I say screw the beat list cause it ain't dying, it is already

dead. You just were afraid to admit it and this is just a good excuse

to go whimpering off into a gentle good night.

But me, I ain't gonna let fear or ego or what you think about me or what

you do or what you say about my poetry or what you sit on your ass doing

nails or whatever stop this list. This is a post to beat-l, is anybody

home, or are you all gonna run and hide!

Peace to those of you who are willing to pay the price to get out of

going through all these things twice.

Bentz, flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I

don't even have a shirt on.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:23:49 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: 231, uhh 230

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

This was the reply to my last post:

>Your message dated Sun, 08 Jun 1997 11:13:26 -0400 with subject "So,

I got

>up this morning and..." has been successfully distributed to the BEAT-L

list

>(231 recipients).

So there are 229 of you out there, not counting me and the poor guy in

unsubscribe hell, and the Beat L is dead, curious curious, curious. I

think I will write a poem, go get laid ( I liked that post) and then see

if my wife is awake. Gotta go see my neighbor, she looks kinda lonely

and all over there. ;-)

Peace and procreation to all of you!

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:24:57 -0500

Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

patricia wrote

i was so sick of the flame war, and i am willing to wait for the list to

resestablish some interesting threads. I have a weakness for poetry but

am looking for a regional poetry list to list my new cowboys are fun to

emascalate poem. I don't feel like a weekend is a fair time to judge

the lists vitality, but would like to continue the idea of returning to

the previous mailing format. I am making pies this afternoon and

decided to invent a new pie after Ohle's story, chili hearts, i have a

great soup called chili hearts soup.

oh i am in a wonderful mood. sorry, i watch it.

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Peace to those of you who are willing to pay the price to get out of

> going through all these things twice.

> Bentz, flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I

> don't even have a shirt on.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:48:50 -0400

Reply-To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

Subject: Re: List changes

In-Reply-To: <339AB756.1DCC7756@scsn.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

in the land of the blind

the one-eyed man is king.

dylan

also,

it's tom waits who piano has been drinking

feeling

elfish

today

hi bill, struggling with all this shit.

good thoughts to you

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:18:13 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...

In-Reply-To: <339ACC15.4C3462D@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> Maybe we could change the name to the Beat-lurks instead. The return

> says over 230 are subscribed, but no posts no posts no posts no posts no

> posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no

> posts!

Bentz, man, you're asking for it. ok. If I had any money I'd happily pay

that price...(y'know, the one that keeps you from having to go thru all

these things twice)... furthermore, "they all fall there so perfectly, it

all seems so well timed" - but then dylan also said "do not trust bathroom

walls that have not been written on... when asked to look at yourself,

never look... when asked for your real name, never give it." If the dylan

list is indeed stagnating, it must just mean that they haven't been

reading enough of his stuff... they could sit there until Armageddon

quoting obscure lines back and forth in total righteousness & hubris.

I was going to write more, but folks, if I was going to be spontaneous, I

would have already been spontaneous, without thinking about it. In fact,

maybe I am being spontaneous right now. I am. But then you take a moment

to look at the moment, & it's gone...

Olly R.

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> So, I got up this morning and like, all I can see is some rap about

> heroin in New York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the

> reply button and some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe. And I am

> thinking man, give me at least a little flame war. If it wasn't for

> David Race, Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this

> list would be dead.

> What happened to all the folks who said stop the flame wars, I wanna get

> off but didn't get off? Where is all this beat stuff you were gonna

> talk about if only those other people would stop their ugly talk? Why

> is the list dead in the water?

> For me, I would rather the flame wars were back in order. By the way, I

> still have not heard from Martha Mayo, should I write her back?

> Maybe everybody is tired, and Lisa, you can't even look at your nails,

> much less work on them anymore while this list downloads.

> Well, I guess we ought to get Ken Nordine to record the emaildiots. It

> could be about a mail list where nobody posts, instead they all sit

> around waiting for some poor sucker like me to flame the whole list and

> then they pounce on him and tear him to shreds, like the women in the

> Cult of the Goddess do on their rants, and scream, oh please don't hurt

> our list. What LIST? Is there any poetry here? Hey Lisa, why don't

> you post some poetry?

> Well, I ain't gonna risk getting flamed by this list, no sir, I am

> gonna sit right here and if you see this post just remember, Bentz

> didn't send it, his evil twin the flame meister did. Hey that

> sonofabitch would flame the whole lot of you if I would let him, I mean,

> he would do it just to get a response, and if you got angry, he would

> LOL at your responses.

> Hey have you got one of those evil twin guys or gals inside of you.

> Bob Dylan does.

> >From Where are You Tonight:

> I fought with my twin, my enemy within, 'til both of us fell by the way

> Horseplay and disease is killing me by degrees while the law looks the

> other way

> and earlier in the same song he said:

> The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to

> explode.

> In that last hour of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of

> the road.

> So there you go folks, are you willing to explode, are you willing to

> sacrifice, have you met your twin and fought him or her withing til BOTH

> of you fell by the way. What are you going to say.

> I have seen the best emailers of my generation silenced by the threat of

> disapproval.

> They were once posters of poetry, talk lies backstabbing, truth honesty,

> big shits and real shits.

> But now they have dwindled off into qwerty induced hazes, seduced by

> protocol, enslavened by fear of the flame,

> And they have died.

> Died in the silicone chip world festered by Stanford.

> Oh, did any voice ring out?

> Oh, did any voice have courage?

> Oh, did my return button silence my voice?

> Oh, why did they lack the courage, or, is it that they just chose not to

> use it.

> I want my beat-l, I want my beat-l they chanted like some MTV inbread

> beavis and butthead listening to too much Dire Straights.

> We got to move these email posts, we got to be flamed, maybe getting a

> tarnish on your reputation, maybe get a tarnish on your little poem,

> maybe get a bruise on your little ego, maybe get a bruise on your little

> head.

> Well I say screw the beat list cause it ain't dying, it is already

> dead. You just were afraid to admit it and this is just a good excuse

> to go whimpering off into a gentle good night.

> But me, I ain't gonna let fear or ego or what you think about me or what

> you do or what you say about my poetry or what you sit on your ass doing

> nails or whatever stop this list. This is a post to beat-l, is anybody

> home, or are you all gonna run and hide!

> Peace to those of you who are willing to pay the price to get out of

> going through all these things twice.

> Bentz, flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I

> don't even have a shirt on.

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:12:04 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: List changes

Comments: To: Marie Countryman <country@SOVER.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Marie Countryman wrote:

> in the land of the blind

> the one-eyed man is king.

> dylan

> also,

> it's tom waits who piano has been drinking

> feeling

> elfish

> today

> hi bill, struggling with all this shit.

> good thoughts to you

> mc

But, Marie, isn't there some thingamajigaroony that you can buy for

$19.95 that will cure it all?

Peace,

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:23:12 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: SF Trip

While your in SF look up SS Kush 1557 Franklin, 292-5554. He was going to

start a poetry museum with my hat. Also Dave Moe 1731 10th Ave Apt A

Berkeley, 510-528-8713. He was at my 1963 party on Gough that Ginzy,

Ferlinghetti, everyone came to, flipping out on much Sandoz. He wants some

poetry for a book he's bringing out in Berkely. Please tell him I'm working

on getting him the poems. Maybe you will have something for him. Give him my

old and crazy love.

Charles Plymell

Nostalgia is vertical

Taste is horizontal

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:29:17 -0400

Reply-To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system

Douglas:

I'd like to get on Patti's list specially if it's flaming. I'd also like to

know if she ever received my sea turtle/nest t-shirt. I was recently on the

outer banks with the sea turtle rescue group. "Why did go away and leave me

in Big Mamu" (An old 50s race music song.) Don't know why it came to my head.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:36:30 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: Re: List changes

In-Reply-To: <l03020903afc04c7814d2@[206.25.67.117]>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

model of

bird

attract

other

birds

--- the cat

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:36:46 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Olly Ruff wrote:

> > Maybe we could change the name to the Beat-lurks instead. The return

> > says over 230 are subscribed, but no posts no posts no posts no posts no

> > posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no posts no

> > posts!

> Bentz, man, you're asking for it. ok. If I had any money I'd happily pay

> that price...(y'know, the one that keeps you from having to go thru all

> these things twice)... furthermore, "they all fall there so perfectly, it

> all seems so well timed" - but then dylan also said "do not trust bathroom

> walls that have not been written on... when asked to look at yourself,

> never look... when asked for your real name, never give it." If the dylan

> list is indeed stagnating, it must just mean that they haven't been

> reading enough of his stuff... they could sit there until Armageddon

> quoting obscure lines back and forth in total righteousness & hubris.

> I was going to write more, but folks, if I was going to be spontaneous, I

> would have already been spontaneous, without thinking about it. In fact,

> maybe I am being spontaneous right now. I am. But then you take a moment

> to look at the moment, & it's gone...

> Olly R.

_______________________________________________________________________________

> "Survival of the... *fittest* ? Was that the proper word ? Had Darwin ever

> considered the idea of *temporary* unfitness ? Like "temporary insanity."

> Could the Doctor have made room in his theory for a thing like LSD ?"

_______________________________________________________________________________

> or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

> skink@imrryr.org

_______________________________________________________________________________

> On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > So, I got up this morning and like, all I can see is some rap about

> > heroin in New York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the

> > reply button and some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe. And I am

> > thinking man, give me at least a little flame war. If it wasn't for

> > David Race, Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this

> > list would be dead.

> >

> > What happened to all the folks who said stop the flame wars, I wanna get

> > off but didn't get off? Where is all this beat stuff you were gonna

> > talk about if only those other people would stop their ugly talk? Why

> > is the list dead in the water?

> >

> > For me, I would rather the flame wars were back in order. By the way, I

> > still have not heard from Martha Mayo, should I write her back?

> >

> > Maybe everybody is tired, and Lisa, you can't even look at your nails,

> > much less work on them anymore while this list downloads.

> >

> > Well, I guess we ought to get Ken Nordine to record the emaildiots. It

> > could be about a mail list where nobody posts, instead they all sit

> > around waiting for some poor sucker like me to flame the whole list and

> > then they pounce on him and tear him to shreds, like the women in the

> > Cult of the Goddess do on their rants, and scream, oh please don't hurt

> > our list. What LIST? Is there any poetry here? Hey Lisa, why don't

> > you post some poetry?

> >

> > Well, I ain't gonna risk getting flamed by this list, no sir, I am

> > gonna sit right here and if you see this post just remember, Bentz

> > didn't send it, his evil twin the flame meister did. Hey that

> > sonofabitch would flame the whole lot of you if I would let him, I mean,

> > he would do it just to get a response, and if you got angry, he would

> > LOL at your responses.

> >

> > Hey have you got one of those evil twin guys or gals inside of you.

> > Bob Dylan does.

> >

> > >From Where are You Tonight:

> >

> > I fought with my twin, my enemy within, 'til both of us fell by the way

> > Horseplay and disease is killing me by degrees while the law looks the

> > other way

> >

> > and earlier in the same song he said:

> >

> > The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to

> > explode.

> > In that last hour of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of

> > the road.

> >

> > So there you go folks, are you willing to explode, are you willing to

> > sacrifice, have you met your twin and fought him or her withing til BOTH

> > of you fell by the way. What are you going to say.

> >

> > I have seen the best emailers of my generation silenced by the threat of

> > disapproval.

> > They were once posters of poetry, talk lies backstabbing, truth honesty,

> > big shits and real shits.

> > But now they have dwindled off into qwerty induced hazes, seduced by

> > protocol, enslavened by fear of the flame,

> > And they have died.

> > Died in the silicone chip world festered by Stanford.

> > Oh, did any voice ring out?

> > Oh, did any voice have courage?

> > Oh, did my return button silence my voice?

> > Oh, why did they lack the courage, or, is it that they just chose not to

> > use it.

> >

> > I want my beat-l, I want my beat-l they chanted like some MTV inbread

> > beavis and butthead listening to too much Dire Straights.

> > We got to move these email posts, we got to be flamed, maybe getting a

> > tarnish on your reputation, maybe get a tarnish on your little poem,

> > maybe get a bruise on your little ego, maybe get a bruise on your little

> > head.

> > Well I say screw the beat list cause it ain't dying, it is already

> > dead. You just were afraid to admit it and this is just a good excuse

> > to go whimpering off into a gentle good night.

> >

> > But me, I ain't gonna let fear or ego or what you think about me or what

> > you do or what you say about my poetry or what you sit on your ass doing

> > nails or whatever stop this list. This is a post to beat-l, is anybody

> > home, or are you all gonna run and hide!

> >

> > Peace to those of you who are willing to pay the price to get out of

> > going through all these things twice.

> >

> > Bentz, flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I

> > don't even have a shirt on.

> >

> > --

> > Bentz

> > bocelts@scsn.net

> >

> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> >

Genlemen,

What's so wrong with the list at the moment? There have been some very

interesting posts in the last week. Yes, the volume is down but quality

is definitly up. I don't miss endless reps of the same wars. A quite

weekend is not a fatal indicator. Summer is alway's more quiet.

Student leave. People travel. All this is good. Ebb and flow. Do you

recognized very many of the unsubscribe names? Look back at any period

in the list and you will see a constant stream of people helplessly

trying to unsubscribe to the wrong address. So far I would call the

experiment a success. More light. Less heat. And time to do something

besides work and deal with list traffic. I just need to feel certain

that Rinaldo understands how to do his usual Sunday morning posts direct

to the list.

James Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:38:02 -0400

Reply-To: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...

>> So, I got up this morning and like, all I can see is some rap about

>> heroin in New York that scares the shit out of me, a post about the

>> reply button and some dude trying like hell to unsubscribe. And I am

>> thinking man, give me at least a little flame war. If it wasn't for

>> David Race, Charles P., Marie C., Patricia E. and a few others, man this

>> list would be dead.

Since you asked...I'm currently dividing my time between bartending school,

a shit job as a cashier, & trying to read _The Sun Also Rises_. Maybe once

I get my bartending diploma & finish TSAR I'll have some insightful things

to say (God, how I hate Hemmingway!!) about TSAR & OTR, since comparisions

have been made before. Or at least I can tell you how to make a better

Sloe Comfortbale Screw Up Against the Wall & Backwards...

In teh meantime, any comments on my scholarly quest? Wasn't there someone

here a while back who was doing a paper comparing the two books? Did he

ever report back with his findings? Gotta get back to how to make a 57'

thunderbird with florida liscense plates (what a great name!)

Diane.

Life is weird. Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:47:05 -0600

Reply-To: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject: white light white heat

In-Reply-To: <339AEDAE.2DA8@pacbell.net>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

um hello

i came slinking back with my tale between my legs and thot that i should

notify the rest of you that i came back the addiction was too great for a

little soul to refuse. community won over individual me thots.

seems to have quietened d

n and comfortable

my problems are dealt with & can reposition meself w/ rest o f you.

so i raise a glass of dada (tastes like bl;ue

milk dadadadadagwasofetwouuuu )for the soul. glad to back if youll

have me gain. and so.

and a poem for you all

(an exercise in amputated haiku)

reading newspaper

two large drops

on page 8

derek

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:52:52 -0400

Reply-To: Sisyphus <sisyphus@polaris.mindport.net>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>

Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...

Comments: To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

In-Reply-To: <339ACC15.4C3462D@scsn.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 8 Jun 1997, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure, to live it you had to

> explode.

> In that last hour of need, we entirely agreed, sacrifice was the code of

> the road.

You know, I can't really understand the words as he sings them, and I

have no lyric sheet. Do you know the words to some of "Series of

Dreams"?

> Bentz, flaming you all, putting you on and laughing up my sleeve when I

> don't even have a shirt on.

*I* have a shirt on, because it's too damned cold in New England yet to

sleep without one. And this poem is NOT finished yet.

It's spring here in Southern New England

Last week, the hills were mossed with tree-top

Each tree-top a lacework of delicate green

-or red; a mauve, but alive!

: the greens set in ramdom patternlets

across the hilltops in the lower connecticut

river valley,

when topping a ridge

in my car:

the wind shaped swell-wave

across the green lacery

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:54:32 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: lets return to the old message system

In-Reply-To: <970608122915_-1396852539@emout18.mail.aol.com>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 9:29 AM -0700 6/8/97, Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

> Douglas:

> I'd like to get on Patti's list specially if it's flaming.

Well, sorry about this one kiddo, it appears as if we are temporarily

satiated by a recent patti appearance (some Buddhist/Dali Lama show).

Anyway, our flames usually revolve around whether or not one of her

geetarists is worth his metal (in and out of the sheets). As well, Jim

Carroll, of all people, tends to get us rilled up over nothing. Can't

think of any other recent flames. But if you want to put me on firewatch

patrol, I can surely alert you to the rising smoke...

> I'd also like to

> know if she ever received my sea turtle/nest t-shirt. I was recently on the

> outer banks with the sea turtle rescue group. "Why did go away and leave me

> in Big Mamu" (An old 50s race music song.) Don't know why it came to my head.

Your best bet would be to write to Patti's mother, Beverly. The address

can be found at http://www.oceanstar.com/patti/write.htm

and the only occurence I have in my memory between "Big Mamu" and "sea

turtles" involves this big whale called "shamu", but I know that's not what

yur talking about. <<dreading the day Microsoft installs 'telepathy' into

its browser>>

> Charles Plymell

cheers, Douglas

> feeding fire through a davies screen

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:12:00 +0200

Reply-To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

Subject: X

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DON'T CALL ME WHITE!

don't call me

WHITE

"tHE hISTORY oF tHE fIERCY cROSS iS oF sCOTTISH

oRIGIN, iT wAS uTILIZED aS A sIGN oF oPPOSITION

tO tYRANNY fROM bIG gOVERNMENT aND oBEDIENCE tO

gOD"

don't call me

WHITE !!!

DON'T CALL

ME WHITE!!

DON'T CALL

ME WHITE!!

when i was AC

when i was YOUNG

Yeeaaaaahh

DON'T CALL

ME WHITE!!

DON'T CALL

ME WHITE!!

no!! no!! NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 12:24:58 -0700

Reply-To: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: Allah Flood

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Rivers a monster

and eim allah flood

cuz eye

gotta move em

back into dem mountains

witta wash closth

and a splish splosh

and eim drippin all de drops

before de drops shu be dropped

and de drops dont drop

when eye hav tuh stop

drip dammit drip.

James M.

June 8, 97

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 16:33:46 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Eliot & Ginsberg

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> R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > TS Eliot is the best this Century. I mean the Allman Brothers named

> > the album that they dedicated to Duane EAT A PEACH.

> >

> > And indeed there will be time

> > To wonder, 'Do I dare?' and, 'Do I dare?'

> > Time to turn back and descend the stair,

> > With a bald spot in the middle of my hair --

> > (They will say: 'How his hair is growing thin!')

> > My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,

> > My necktie rich and modest, but asserted with a simple pin --

> > (They will say: 'But how his arms and legs are thin!')

> > Do I dare

> > Disturb the universe?

> > In a minute there is time

> > For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

> >

> > For I have known them all already, known them all --

> > Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,

> > I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;

> > I know the voices dying with a dying fall

> > Beneath the music from a farther room,

> > So how should I presume?

> >

> > ............

> >

> > I am no prophet -- and here's no great matter;

> > I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,

> > And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,

> > And in short, I was afraid.

> >

> > ...........................

> >

> > I grow old...I grow old...

> > I shall wear the bottom of my trousers rolled.

> >

> > Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?

> >

> > .........................

> >

> > We have lingered in the chambers of the sea

> > By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown

> > Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

> >

> > >From the Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, 1917

> > T.S. Eliot

> >

> > My they will say

> >

> > --

> > Bentz

> > bocelts@scsn.net

> >

> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

I want to redelve into the beat poetry vs Eliot (Pound, Williams) thread

that began a couple of weeks ago under the guise of "how annoying some of

these whiny people are."

I would never infer Eliot, Pound and Williams were not great poets. My

point is that Allen Ginsberg took in what they wrote and then in his own

work went beyond them. When I read the The Love Song of J. Alfred

Prufrock that Bentz quote from above, the first thing I think of is how

Eliot's thoughts are trapped in his style, like he worked to fit his

words into a form that appeared poetic, and how I have never read a poem

by Allen Ginsberg where I had that thought. This week, I was reading

Allen Verbatim, and what do I find but an incredible roundtable

discussion of twentieth century poetry, with questions (Q), followed by

answers from Allen Ginsberg(AG) and Robert Duncan (RD).

The following is directly quoted from Allen Verbatim:

Q: One thing that bothers me about contemporary poetry, if I can go back

to Eliot, is like he said poetry is impersonal. He didn't mean that it's

cold or didactic, but the primary concern of the poets is a thing of

beauty or an artistic work...

AG: Just as I began by trying to voice my kinship and my secret

perceptions to a dear friend, just as I began trying to get out the raw

material of my heart, or to get out my actual feelings, heartthrobs, I'm

not concerned with creating a work of art, because that's only a

three-letter word, anyway, plus the four-letter word work. And I don't

want to predefine it--I mean how would you go about creating a work of

art, would you go by a set of rules or what?

Q: I'm not saying it's a rigid form...

AG: Well, so, even to entertain the conception in advance of creating a

work of art would block your mind from getting at the actual heart-throb

or direct expression of the material you started out trying to articulate

or voice. So what I do is try to forget entirely about the world of art,

and just get directly to the most economical--that is, the fastest, not

most economical--the fastest and most direct expression of what it is I

got in my heart-mind. Trusting that if my heart-mind is shapely, the

objects or words, the word sequences, the sentences, the line, the song

will also be shapely. And if I can directly deal out my feelings what

will be dealt out could be put in a museum, 'Art,' see? In fact that's

really what art is I think--the stuff that later seems to be solid enough

to put in the museum of your mind.

RD: One of the difficulties with Eliot is that he's writing from a vast

historical ignorance when he writes about perfection in a work of art.

Although he lived in the thirties and forties, when great works were

being written on art, he did not recognize that only a small segment of

mankind for a limited period of history had this idea of a 'work of art'

and of perfection. The Greeks had the idea of making something, and

that's what the word poetry comes from--making something, like God makes

Creation...

I was twenty-eight when I wrote 'Medieval Scenes' and that's the

first time I knew what I had to do in a poem. You feel obedience when

you've arrived there. Eliot is deficient on a formal level; that's why

he talks about form. Pound actually rewrote 'The Wasteland' and that's

why it has the form it has. Eliot does not understand total form. 'The

Wasteland' has marvelous things in it, but one thing it does not have is

a feeling of form. He flunks on the gestalt level. Whereas 'The Cantos'

are ever-present form. Eliot had to immitate form. He immitates

Beethoven. Beethoven wasn't imitating a form; he was in form. This is

Eliot's weakness.

AG: Eliot's constantly adapting somebody else's form.

RD: He goes to Poe and sounds like Poe, but when Poe was writing even he

had form. Although Poe had a very grotesque thing; he kept thinking that

his convention was his form. But we all feel the form struggling

underneath.

Ok all, got any thoughts about any of this?

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:10:35 +0100

Reply-To: or205@hermes.cam.ac.uk

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Olly Ruff <or205@HERMES.CAM.AC.UK>

Subject: re Eliot.

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This is from memory & so may be inaccurate :

"Eyes I dare not meet

in death's dream kingdom

these do not appear :

there, the eyes are

sunlight on a broken column

there, is a tree swinging

and voices are

in the wind's singing

more distant and more solemn

than a fading star

Let me be no nearer

in death's dream kingdom

let me also wear

such deliberate disguises

Rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves

standing in a field

behaving as the wind behaves ;

no nearer

Not that final meeting

in the twilight kingdom"

- that's part two of The Hollow Men. See also :

"Where will the word be found, where will the word

Resound ? Not here ; there is not enough silence

Not on the sea, or on the islands, not

on the mainland, in the desert or the rainland

For those who walk in darkness

Both in the daytime and the nighttime..."

- from Ash Wednesday. Myself, I'm not sure if I prefer Eliot to Ginsberg

or not. I think I might. He didn't write much great stuff - in fact, you

could cut it down to Love Song of JAP (+ a couple of others from that

period), Wasteland, Hollow Men, Ash Wednesday, Four Quartets - but I'd

call that a legacy almost unlike any other. I do have more to say on this

subject, but unfortunately I'm having a little difficulty marshalling my

thoughts just now so I'll have to come back to it later...

bear with me,

Olly.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:54:07 -0700

Reply-To: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James William Marshall <iamio@MAIL.NETSHOP.NET>

Subject: OTR vs. TSAR

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Alright. Being a bit. Of a Hemingway fan, I'd have to say that _On the

Road_ would probably be better compared with _A Moveable Feast_. If you

don't like _The Sun Also Rises_ (which is hard for me to fathom) and you

like the Beats, a good intro to my man Ernest is probably the aforementioned

book. If you wanna compare first novels, I think that most critics would

probably put TSAR before _The Town and the City_, but since I like both

authors I probably wouldn't judge them by the same standards. To be Frank

(another guy who you can burn and curse to your heart's con tent) I think

Kerouac was a little more thematically redundant in his novels than

Hemingway was in his. How come no one ever mentions _Lonesome Traveller_?

Is it because Kerouac sorta sums up his entire life and philosophy and

there's little need to read his other books other than for aesthetic

pleasure? After I read LT, I started reading _Desolation Angels_ but I

quickly got tired of it because I felt like I'd read it all before. Frank,

by the way, is subject to frequent second thoughts.

James M. (not Frank)

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:08:08 -0400

Reply-To: Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Leitha Sackmann <lsackma@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU>

Subject: Re: So, I got up this morning and...

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>Since you asked...I'm currently dividing my time between bartending school,

>a shit job as a cashier, & trying to read _The Sun Also Rises_. Maybe once

>I get my bartending diploma & finish TSAR I'll have some insightful things

>to say (God, how I hate Hemmingway!!) about TSAR & OTR, since comparisions

>have been made before. Or at least I can tell you how to make a better

>Sloe Comfortbale Screw Up Against the Wall & Backwards...

>In teh meantime, any comments on my scholarly quest? Wasn't there someone

>here a while back who was doing a paper comparing the two books? Did he

>ever report back with his findings? Gotta get back to how to make a 57'

>thunderbird with florida liscense plates (what a great name!)

>Diane.

Diane,

twas i who was writing the paper comparing those two great novels

(unlike you, i LOVE Papa).

I did post my paper to the list and did get some helpful comments. If you'd

like, I could repost the paper to you (and/or the list). I have one

question for you though: If you really hate hemingway, then why are you

reading TSAR? Maybe it's required for the bartending diploma? Actually, I

can't think of any other book that would be a better read for a bartender.

Would love to hear your comments regarding the two novels. i hope you enjoy

the rest of that novel.

matt

*****************************************************************

"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision

for the limits of the world."

Arthur Schopenhauer

*****************************************************************

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:10:08 +0200

Reply-To: danneman@Update.UU.SE

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Daniel Brattemark <danneman@UPDATE.UU.SE>

Subject: Re: X

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Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

> DON'T CALL ME WHITE!

> don't call me

> WHITE

> "tHE hISTORY oF tHE fIERCY cROSS iS oF sCOTTISH

> oRIGIN, iT wAS uTILIZED aS A sIGN oF oPPOSITION

> tO tYRANNY fROM bIG gOVERNMENT aND oBEDIENCE tO

> gOD"

> don't call me

> WHITE !!!

> DON'T CALL

> ME WHITE!!

> DON'T CALL

> ME WHITE!!

> when i was AC

> when i was YOUNG

> Yeeaaaaahh

> DON'T CALL

> ME WHITE!!

> DON'T CALL

> ME WHITE!!

> no!! no!! NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

sorry this has no beat connection.

it's just that i love a song called "don't call me white"

"the connotations wearing my nerves thin

could it be semantics generating the mess we're in?

i understand that language breeds stereotype

but what's the explanation for the malice for the spite?"

in case you wonder it's by NOFX

-daniel

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 14:53:14 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: sold my soul

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parking was harder than I thought

the endless turns and variable stop lights

bags and bags and jutting and crossing

the passengers have a mind of their own

followed the tall brunette into starbucks

and ordered the same as she

the blueberry muffin stained my fingers

as I whet my appetite staring at crowds

of pigeons and high heeled shoes

clackety clackety clak

'I stayed on the scene, huh, like a sex machine'

thinking of biological determinism, darwin,

and the need to be clean... shaven

annoying these habits the lady behind the counter

the lady behind the counter, she took my name

I wonder sometimes if I've sold my soul

just wanted a cut of hair, a locket to keep

a single blood drop to roll around my fingers

this sweet, oh to trim, and thighs, and peasant thoughts

'I just want to look good for you baby

show you what you do for me'

bought the latest playboy, oh what a cad!

haven't had the courage to open it yet

thinking of On The Road and K and how sex

was like religion, adolescent fantasies

children by the side of the road

hurricanes of thought and presence

killers of normalacy, drunken and driven

by by by by

I wonder sometimes if I've sold my soul

<<adding to the pandemonium>> Douglas

> feeding fire through a davies screen

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 17:50:29 -0500

Reply-To: thereman@IX.NETCOM.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Josh Meyer <thereman@IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: UPON MY DEADBED

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Hello BEAT-L readers... Here is a poem I wrote today... read it or delete it...

I just want to feel like I'm

contributing to this list in SOME sort of way... yours- JOSH.

UPON MY DEADBED

Summer ain't free in these parts of your mind

no sirree

we're asking for a big toll on this stretch of the road

your time will be wasted

all love will be lost

you will grow ugly

bogged down by the company that puts on the show

we stop artistic expression

smashing creativity to a nil

no nipple fishing

or roller coasting today, young man

just the heat coming from your head as you lay upon the mattress

sucking in the boredom

WELL, keep sucking BOY!

It will only get worse

as time passes, your bags will grow

exponentially

mounting themselves upon the highest ranking lowpoint in all of Hades

climbing lower and lower

deeper and stinkier into the marsh of torpor

Smell that fishy-fish stank that rises

from your pits

THAT is your cancer

and it will NOT go away

Sucking out the sticky juice only makes it worse

cause then the fungus has found Mr. Mouth and all of his lonely counterparts

and then it's the gossip queen fiasco

with excrement flying at double speed

you are no use moving

you are no use sitting

so hurry up already

and

your

business

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:25:25 -0500

Reply-To: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "E.j.C." <beat@SKY.NET>

Subject: Women of the Beat Generation

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For those of you who have been attending festivals and parades this

weekend, you might be interested in this. I just discovered in the

May/June issue of Girlfriends a _short_ review of Knight's book, Women of

the Beat Generation: the Writers, Artists, and Muses at the Heart of a

Revolution. It was a nice surprise.

-j-EnnifEr c.

If anyone was at Bartle Hall today, I was the asian grrl standing next to

the queen in clear plastic and a parasol.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:34:18 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: wisdoms from wise creators

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"The important thing about art is that it makes people aware of what they

know but

don't know that they know ... This breakthrough results in a permanent

expansion of

consciousness."wsb

"I CALL FOR A THEATRE IN WHICH THE ACTORS

ARE LIKE VICTIMS BURNING AT THE STAKE,

SIGNALLING THROUGH THE FLAMES." - Antonin Artaud

"We dream of a world in which nature is seen as alive, in which the

imagination permeates all reality, in which animals and plants are seen a=

s a

part of the living texture, the living components,the cells in the life o=

Gaia and Gaia in the life of the cosmos as a whole." - Rupert Sheldrake

John Cage, interviewed in San Francisco, discusses his art, music and

views on the human condition. Following his growing interest in Eastern

philosophies, he began integrating the element of chance into his work.

At his home in Brussels, Ilya Prigogine, the "poet of thermodynamics,"

speaks about his theories which have revolutionized science. His work on

irreversible non-linear processes that simultaneously create both order a=

disorder radically challenges our views on time and space.

Huston Smith, in the garden of his Berkeley, California home, explains hi=

ideas about "the new religion of science" and post-modernism. During fift=

een

years of teaching religion and philosophy at the Massachusetts Institute =

Technology, Smith's

hypothesis was thoroughly tested - "An epistemology that aims relentlessl=

y at

control rules out

the possibility of transcendence."

"The flutter of the the moth's wing can trigger the hurricane. This is no=

t a

poetic statement. This

is the fact of the matter within this kind of description of nature. In o=

ther

words, very small

changes create cascades into where whole states shift and are perturbed."=

Terence McKenna

The Universe isn't weirder

than we think=85

It's weirder than we can think!

Arthur Eddington

"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the

sower of all true art and science. Those to whom this emotion is a

stranger . . . are as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to =

really exists --- manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most

radiant beauty, which our dull facilities can comprehend only in their mo=

primitive forms --- this knowledge, this feeling, is at the centre to tru=

religiousness. In this sense, and this sense only, I belong to the ranks =

devoutly religious man." Albert Einstein

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:35:54 -0400

Reply-To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject: shortstory aka 'clones'

Man's greatest evolutionary asset, the only thing that can save us, is

IMAGINATION.

The planet is doomed: in a fraction of a century, Earth's population

reaches a size that is too great for its natural resources to support.

The only abundant source of protein is human flesh.

Trapped on Earth like on a raft adrift at sea, humans are forced to eat their

own dead to survive. Unless....

Meanwhile, behind the facade of a delapidated bookstore, the Mad Outlaw

splices DNA in his Survival Research Lab, creating fantastic hybrids from his

vast collection of mutant genes......

We don't need sex to reproduce anymore, we can now clone ourselves. you

can have them make your very own clone, identical except for the time delay.

Just mail in a piece of hair along with your $99.95, and in 9 months you can

pick up a clone. Ah, the immortality of genes...

And now, a moment of silence for the long-lost genes of times past. the waste

of natural selection.

And all the endangered genes. Of course, the Budget cannot provide

reservations for all of them. Government experts decide which ones deserve

reservations according to Standardized Achievement Tests which they have

developed to measure Usefulness.

Rule number one: those in power are the only ones allowed to have more than

one identical offspring.

This is proof of the immortality of rulers as opposed to common people.

The rulers are not opposed to common people. The rulers are very tolerant.

Mandatory Sterilization facilities are built in prisons. They help

prevent the spread of unfavorable genes. Criminals are sentenced to MS for

committing major crimes such as Treason. One example of treason is

overthrowing the government; another example is being a Communist.

Innapropriate and disruptive behavior is also punishable by MS. Even

if you're screaming and screaming to warn the prison guards that there's a

fire and the whole prison will burn, they might not believe you. This is

called "Disturbing the Piece". The prisoner is hand- and foot-cuffed and is

dragged, struggling, past heavy steel doors and out of the sight of other

prisoners.

Two guards walk up and down the isle, joking about the operation under

way, conscious of being followed by the eyes of prisoners peering through the

bars.

Suddenly they notice smoke and the distinctive smell of burning

flesh........

At last, the Mad Outlaw creates a successful, reproductively viable,

human being with gills, perfectly adapted for life underwater. Its skin is

watertight, its toes slightly webbed, adjustments have been made to the inner

ear; yes, the Outlaw has thought of everything. At last, man can spill over

from the teeming shores into the vast oceans where food abounds; and the

human race will not dissappear forever.

Eager to share his discoveries with the government and prove once and

for all that mutation will save us, the Mad Outlaw writes a letter to the

editor of the Science Times. "Instant Evolution", the letter says,"is the

only way to buy us more time on this planet until we can find another one to

live on, since we have outgrown Earth and are heading for extinction".

The next day, the CIA, the FBI, the DEA, the NYSE, the SASE, the LAPD,

and the PTA stormed into the bookstore, demolishing it and firing automatic

weapons in every direction. They pounced on the Outlaw, and, shrieking like

harpies, scratched at him and tore at him with their nails and teeth, until

he lay in a bloody heap on the floor. All this in the name of Ethics. "How

could he have escaped our conditioning?", they asked. "Everyone knows that

mutation is Bad".

So then, they all formed an umbrella organization called the

Anti-Evolution League (AEVL). They just weren't comfortable with the idea of

such drastic change, even if it was necessary to the survival of the Species.

"We have the right to remain the most evolved!" was their rallying cry. "Hom

o Sapiens is the Best! Kill all the rest!".

And, wanting to remain Immortal, they closed their eyes to the evidence

of Time.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:34:51 -0500

Reply-To: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject: Re: Burroughs & viruses

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Marioka7@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-06-07 20:45:48 EDT, you write:

> <<

> yeh a stong cup of coffee, thats the ticket.

> poem

> bill

> william walks, denim swishing,

> cat hairs cling to his cuffs,

> throwing globules at the goldfish,

> straight at them, like a first pitch of baseball season.

> quietly, slowly, reaches wrinkled fingers into water,

> hand closes around squirming wet body, pulls it out of tank

> orange glistening of scales, dripping water from pulsing mouth,

> sucking, sucking the fatal and empty air.

> Eyes wide with panic. Bill lowers the goldfish, opening his hand presents it

> on his palm to his smiling cat. We know who's master of the house.

> What did the lesbian frog say to the other lesbian frog,

> hey , you really do taste like chicken,

> Lesbian frog answers,

> and how do you know what chicken tasts like?

> tweak that, and write back

> patricia and david

> >>

> mmm-mmm good!

> frog-lickin'

> toad-suckin'

> chicken-actin'

> girl-likin'

> crap-shootin'

> LESBO!!!!

> finger-stickin' good!!

> Hmm...maybe i AM a little tweaked. i decided not to post stuff on the list

> anymore because i get a lot of negative feed-back. Who would have thought

> people who like the beats could be so squeamish?

patricia goes

go go for it girlfriend, i said, hell she knows him.

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:47:36 -0700

Reply-To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg

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CVEditions@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-06-08 15:49:54 EDT, you write:

> << Ok all, got any thoughts about any of this? >>

> Oh God! I hadn't thought about the old classic/romantic academic discourse in

> years..hmm where to start. well Duncun sounded credible in his analysis. Did

> you mean to imply that Williams is great or not. I tried to read him in the

> 50's when he was popular in academic canons. I thought he was very mediocre,

> not half as good as many who erite me today. Allen tried to tell me about his

> foot thing. I could never get it. Heart-mind-foot? Nothing ever knopcked the

> shit out of me, but it can happen, I'm sure. Oh what was that poetry stuff

> again. Someone slupping baggage to a museum, or that art, so rare a thing a

> liqiud abouve and beyond the mind. Maybe its piss? Try the Toxic hotel zone

> Beneath the Empire of the Birds by Carl Watson just sent to me . Who has

> those round tables and what does it mean today? Antiques?

> Charles Plymell

Antiques, exactly, all except for Ginsberg. It all began when I brought

up my belief that Allen Ginsberg was the greatest poet of this century.

Eliot, Williams, and Pound were all mentioned as heavy contenders for

that description. I think that all fall short. Mediocre? Maybe. Too

concerned with style, I think. Take something like pissing as a perfect

example. Eliot would try to make a work of art about pissing. Williams

would rhymically measure out his words about pissing. Ginsberg would

piss. And show you how purely inspirational a bodily function can be.

And then to really get off course here, you would have someone like Joyce

who would write about pissing in 600 pages, so circularly that, without

great attention, you would never know he had pissed, but you would know

that piss was the essential steam connecting the consciousness of all

mankind.

What's the Toxic Hotel Zone Beneath the Empire of the Birds?

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Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:55:50 -0400

Reply-To: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject: Re: wisdoms from wise creators

Comments: To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

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Maya Gorton wrote:

> "The flutter of the the moth's wing can trigger the hurricane. This is

> not a

> poetic statement. This

> is the fact of the matter within this kind of description of nature.

> In other

> words, very small

> changes create cascades into where whole states shift and are

> perturbed." -

> Terence McKenna

Did anyone else notice how the day of the criminal verdict in the OJ

Simpson trial, that a hurricane was dying out in the gulf of Mexico.

When the verdict was announced and all the talk show hosts and guests

started venting all of their anger that the hurricane at that very

moment began to feed on the anger and built up speed and crashed into

the US doing major destruction. If people would have loved instead,

then we would have seen the hurricane die a peaceful death. I wonder if

the government is studying this and learning how to harness this

energy. If it is, it will not be used for good.

Peace, and let us pray for it hard, as if our very souls depend upon it,

because they do.

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:06:37 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: white light white heat

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Derek A. Beaulieu wrote:

> um hello

> i came slinking back with my tale between my legs and thot that i should

> notify the rest of you that i came back the addiction was too great for a

> little soul to refuse. community won over individual me thots.

> seems to have quietened d

> o

> w

> n and comfortable

> my problems are dealt with & can reposition meself w/ rest o f you.

> so i raise a glass of dada (tastes like bl;ue

> milk dadadadadagwasofetwouuuu )for the soul. glad to back if youll

> have me gain. and so.

> and a poem for you all

> (an exercise in amputated haiku)

> reading newspaper

> two large drops

> on page 8

> derek

Derek,

Good to have you back. It's sort of nice here again, tho some would

disagree.

J. Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:19:06 -0700

Reply-To: stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender: "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From: James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject: Re: Eliot & Ginsberg

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Diane Carter wrote:

> > R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> > > TS Eliot is the best this Century. I mean the Allman Brothers named

> > > the album that they dedicated to Duane EAT A PEACH.

> > >

> > > And indeed there will be time

> > > To wonder, 'Do I dare?' and, 'Do I dare?'

> > > Time to turn back and descend the stair,

> > > With a bald spot in the middle of my hair --

> > > (They will say: 'How his hair is growing thin!')

> > > My morning coat, my collar mounting firmly to the chin,

> > > My necktie rich and modest, but asserted with a simple pin --

> > > (They will say: 'But how his arms and legs are thin!')

> > > Do I dare

> > > Disturb the universe?

> > > In a minute there is time

> > > For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

> > >

> > > For I have known them all already, known them all --

> > > Have known the evenings, mornings, afternoons,

> > > I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;

> > > I know the voices dying with a dying fall

> > > Beneath the music from a farther room,

> > > So how should I presume?

> > >

> > > ............

> > >

> > > I am no prophet -- and here's no great matter;

> > > I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,

> > > And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat, and snicker,

> > > And in short, I was afraid.

> > >

> > > ...........................

> > >

> > > I grow old...I grow old...

> > > I shall wear the bottom of my trousers rolled.

> > >

> > > Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?

> > >

> > > .........................

> > >

> > > We have lingered in the chambers of the sea

> > > By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown

> > > Till human voices wake us, and we drown.

> > >

> > > >From the Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, 1917

> > > T.S. Eliot

> > >

> > > My they will say

> > >

> > > --

> > > Bentz

> > > bocelts@scsn.net

> > >

> > > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> >

> > --

> > Bentz

> > bocelts@scsn.net

> >

> > http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

> I want to redelve into the beat poetry vs Eliot (Pound, Williams) thread

> that began a couple of weeks ago under the guise of "how annoying some of

> these whiny people are."

> I would never infer Eliot, Pound and Williams were not great poets. My

> point is that Allen Ginsberg took in what they wrote and then in his own

> work went beyond them. When I read the The Love Song of J. Alfred

> Prufrock that Bentz quote from above, the first thing I think of is how

> Eliot's thoughts are trapped in his style, like he worked to fit his

> words into a form that appeared poetic, and how I have never read a poem

> by Allen Ginsberg where I had that thought. This week, I was reading

> Allen Verbatim, and what do I find but an incredible roundtable

> discussion of twentieth century poetry, with questions (Q), followed by

> answers from Allen Ginsberg(AG) and Robert Duncan (RD).

> The following is directly quoted from Allen Verbatim:

> Q: One thing that bothers me about contemporary poetry, if I can go back

> to Eliot, is like he said poetry is impersonal. He didn't mean that it's

> cold or didactic, but the primary concern of the poets is a thing of

> beauty or an artistic work...

> AG: Just as I began by trying to voice my kinship and my secret

> perceptions to a dear friend, just as I began trying to get out the raw

> material of my heart, or to get out my actual feelings, heartthrobs, I'm

> not concerned with creating a work of art, because that's only a

> three-letter word, anyway, plus the four-letter word work. And I don't

> want to predefine it--I mean how would you go about creating a work of

> art, would you go by a set of rules or what?

> Q: I'm not saying it's a rigid form...

> AG: Well, so, even to entertain the conception in advance of creating a

> work of art would block your mind from getting at the actual heart-throb

> or direct expression of the material you started out trying to articulate

> or voice. So what I do is try to forget entirely about the world of art,

> and just get directly to the most economical--that is, the fastest, not

> most economical--the fastest and most direct expression of what it is I

> got in my heart-mind. Trusting that if my heart-mind is shapely, the

> objects or words, the word sequences, the sentences, the line, the song

> will also be shapely. And if I can directly deal out my feelings what

> will be dealt out could be put in a museum, 'Art,' see? In fact that's

> really what art is I think--the stuff that later seems to be solid enough

> to put in the museum of your mind.

> RD: One of the difficulties with Eliot is that he's writing from a vast

> historical ignorance when he writes about perfection in a work of art.

> Although he lived in the thirties and forties, when great works were

> being written on art, he did not recognize that only a small segment of

> mankind for a limited period of history had this idea of a 'work of art'

> and of perfection. The Greeks had the idea of making something, and

> that's what the word poetry comes from--making something, like God makes

> Creation...

> I was twenty-eight when I wrote 'Medieval Scenes' and that's the

> first time I knew what I had to do in a poem. You feel obedience when

> you've arrived there. Eliot is deficient on a formal level; that's why

> he talks about form. Pound actually rewrote 'The Wasteland' and that's

> why it has the form it has. Eliot does not understand total form. 'The

> Wasteland' has marvelous things in it, but one thing it does not have is

> a feeling of form. He flunks on the gestalt level. Whereas 'The Cantos'

> are ever-present form. Eliot had to immitate form. He immitates

> Beethoven. Beethoven wasn't imitating a form; he was in form. This is

> Eliot's weakness.

> AG: Eliot's constantly adapting somebody else's form.

> RD: He goes to Poe and sounds like Poe, but when Poe was writing even he

> had form. Although Poe had a very grotesque thing; he kept thinking that

> his convention was his form. But we all feel the form struggling

> underneath.

> Ok all, got any thoughts about any of this?

> DC

Diane,

Thanks for the nice quote from Allan Verbatim. I think that the quote

along with your observation goes directly to why Pound and Williams were

so much more important as an influence on our writers. Not that Eliot

didn't write some wonderful poems, but he is much more limited, irony

becomes the only thing of importance, and all of us must have wondered

what the early Eliot poems would have been like without Pound's

revisions. Eliot's poetry is so withdrawn, so obsessed with limits.

It's not far fetched to see poetry in the second half of the century

trying to escape from Eliot and return to roots in Pound.

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 20:23:23 -0700

Reply-To: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

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From: runner911 <babu@ELECTRICITI.COM>

Subject: Re: wisdoms from wise creators

In-Reply-To: <339B70B5.4C506609@scsn.net>

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At 7:55 PM -0700 6/8/97, R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

> Peace, and let us pray for it hard, as if our very souls depend upon it,

> because they do.

here's to praying that ben and jerry's comes up with a Kokonut Kerouac ice

cream!

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

Douglas <<mmmm, coconut>>

> feeding fire through a davies screen

http://www.electriciti.com/babu/