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Date:         Sat, 14 Jun 1997 20:33:46 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

 

DC:

Allen has recited some of Pound's greatest lines to me which indicates

certainly that aesthetic form (and you have to equate Pound with that) can

also be memorable words.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 14 Jun 1997 21:08:30 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Stories

 

In a message dated 97-06-14 05:00:50 EDT, you write:

 

<< When you wrote "the last time I saw Neal and loaned him a fiver..." >>

Pam and I were in a sleazy hotel in North Beach when Neal and my old friend

from Kansas had commandeered someone's VW ran upstairs pounding on our door

both I assume on speed, hallucinogens, pot, etc. Both had bandannas tied

around their heads probably to keep everything in and Neal wanted $5 for gas

to go down to Palo Alto to a hell's angels' party. He looked at me with those

sad loyal pitiful eyes and assured me that he would pay me back, not that it

made any difference to me. I had just gone down to the Calif Dept of Motor

Vehicles to help him get his driver's license which he was all paranoid

about. My friend Glenn Todd still has Neal's license. Anyway they were both

crazy driver and were arguing with each other about who was going to drive

the VW bug. They wanted us to cram in there with them and the girl who owned

the VW. We of course knew better.

BTW Glenn Todd has just found an old manuscript he dug from someone's box of

things he kept (he won't say whose). It is 65 pages. I'm trying to persuade

him to publish it somewhere somehow. It is a chronicle of the party I had on

Gough street where he was living with me and Dave Haselwood of the Auerhahn

Press before Neal and Allen had moved in. Roxie arrived also that night from

Europe. The manuscript is important because the party was just prior to the

Haight Ashbury scene breaking out. Allen had just come from India. He brought

to my party Ferlinghetti and Whalen. Daniel Moore and his wife arrived.

Michael McClure and his wife arrived. The description of the party gives the

reader a snapshot of what was happening with the Sandoz vials of LSD and the

Cheracol bottles as candle holders on the fireplace mantel. It gives a good

description of Phil Whalen dancing to many different kinds of music and it

was in an historic pad. Described in this little description from his

writing:

"Nervous, hung-up ghosts flit from room to room. Remnants of meth electrify

the air, mists of marijuana have cooled its rafters; immobility of junk has

settled in its corners, sometimes so thick you could heat it in a spoon.  It

has an immediate history which stretches back into the great Beat days of the

fifties when Allen Ginsberg, Peter Orlovsky, and Robert LaVigne lived there,

and a vague legend that reaches back to the forties, and even the thirties,

lurching in gaps toward the present in intertwining and overlapping plots."

"On the wall above her round kitchen table Nina has tacked a sign carefully

lettered in orange crayold: I AM RESPONSIBLE.  Across the room another sign

proclaims: LSD DID, to which someone has added, NOT; which someone else

extended, HING; a final flourish completes the sign with A LOT. 'LSD id

nothing a lot."  Glenn said: "Everyone has a Gough Street story."

This is one of his. Neal returned to Nina's room just before he went to

Mexico. It is also important to note the terminology of the time. The term

"acid" had not been coined and one can see by that little crayon note how

easy it would be to slip into Eastern mysticism.  That was part of my point

about reciting T.S. Eliot to my students who might not have the existential

motif entwined in the consciousness. It would be similar to use some of the

Taoist texts or Jim Morrison's poetry, or Blake, or Rimbaud to reveal the

conciousness that was going to happen in the Haight. I have assumed that

these motives are not always enterwined throughout each generation's

conciousness.No big deal about who's fucking poems one can recite.

Charles Plymell

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Date:         Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:45:39 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

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Diane Carter wrote in response to C. Plymell and Lurker #254

>

> When I was in college, which was 20 years ago, I read a lot of Blake.  I

> have books with tons of notations in the margins, but while I remember

> the way Blake wrote, I could not for the life of me recall lines of a

> single poem.

 

Diane, I cannot believe that you guys can't at least remember some of

the poems of Innocence and Experience.  "Tyger Tyger burning bright"

"Ah Sunflower weary or Time", etc.  Some of Blake's things do get

awfully complicated and arcane, but the Songs are as simple as poetry

gets, and obsessed with the visionary, which was why they so drew

Ginsberg.

 

  The same with T.S. Eliot, I remember how he wrote, and if

> you recited poems to me, either Prufrock or something from The Wasteland,

> I would recognize it.  . . .

 

 Eliot was too bound up with form and

> thinking "poetically."  And, lurker #254, it's time to defend your

> stance, that "TS Eliot is a much better poet."  You can't just put that

> sentence out there without the "why."  We're waiting.

> DC

 

Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here.  Much as I love

Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable

things.  I think he had an awful influence on modern poetry, but "Love

Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty damn

wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without Pounds

help.  And what's wrong with a poet being obsessed with "form" and being

"poetic"?  Seems to me that this is what poetry is about?

 

And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to

argue with.

 

J Stauffer.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sat, 14 Jun 1997 23:04:22 +0200

Reply-To:     Jean.ORY@hol.fr

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Jean ORY <Jean.ORY@HOL.FR>

Organization: ORY Jean

Subject:      Re: Epiphany in kerouac

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That is a question I asked to myself:

Why Kerouac - Buddhism - Booze?

 

First point - even a Buddhist master can be an alcoholic!

Chogyam Trungpa got a car crash in England because he was drunk. he went

straight on to a wall instead of following the curve of the road.

The sixteenth Karmapa told him to go for a one year retreat to come down

a little from his habit.

Namkay Norbu, recognized as a Dzogchen master, is known as a heavy

drinker and was advised by the doctors to stop because it was damaging

his health.

Taisen Deshimaru, the Zen master who brought Soto Zen in Europe was a

cognac lover and a heavy nicotine smoker.

 

Second point is that Jack Kerouac, thought "Natural Buddhist" didn't

have any guru who really taught him how to meditate.

 

Third point: I agree with that Catholic guilty feeling which should have

been eradicated through receiving Buddhist teachings from a competent

teacher and through correct meditation.

 

I think that Ginsberg had led a positive end of life because he met

Choghyam Trungpa and learn from him what really was meditation and so

how to get from meditation what people used to get from drinking alcohol

or from taking any mind changing drug.

 

About Ti Jean : *Ti* is the phonetic contraction of  *petit* which means

small.

*Ti* is the Canadian phonetic way to say "petit".

Hi to the Canadians of the list!

 

A question: Was there any meeting between Shunryu Suzuki, author of "Zen

Mind, beginner's mind" who was teaching from the beginnings of the

sixties Soto Zen in San Francisco and the Beat Generation Authors?

I read that Shunryu Suzuki made a lecture at the last be in concert in

the sixties along with Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the Grateful Dead

 

What's about Alan Watts and the Beats?

 

Just an information for fun!

 

Beginning of the sixties I was a regular visitor of the Shakespeare and

CO bookshop in Paris where they were many beat vibes, many people from

everywhere coming and going.

I been living in Tangier for one year between 1965 and 1966.

I was bookshop assistant at the Librairie de Colonnes, boulevard

Pasteur.

I went to Tangier, because the grass and because Howl and because the

Naked lunch.

One day in spring 1966 I saw William Burroughs come in the bookshop.

I was so paralyzed that I even couldn't ask him for an autograph.

Paul Bowles used to come often to the bookshop as many other Tangier

people who were painters, writers, etc.

I went back in 1967 for holidays.

I never went back then, because I had so many good memories, I met so

many beautiful and brilliant people reading the I Ching and "The Tibetan

Book of the Dead, a psychedelic experience" and many of them died or

went away.

Took my first trip there.

 

I experienced "I saw the best minds of my generation....."  with a

broken heart.

 

All things must pass..........

 

Jean

 

Enlarging my ears to listen to the sound of one palm of a hand for

myself and for them.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:47:10 -0400

Reply-To:     Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>

Subject:      Re: epiphany in Kerouac

Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

In-Reply-To:  <33A2FF14.5625@together.net>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Diane Carter wrote:

 

> I have to say I understand and agree with most everything you said.  Most

to...

> Ginsberg without drugs.  But you also do not have to equate

> self-destruction with art or altered states of conscious with

> self-destruction.  Maybe that leads to some more questions about how

 

For the first "self-destruction" substitute self-immolation.  And art is

only art only an attempt to communicate the ineffable.  Only.  Life is

learning.  I would say "drugs" [and god DAMN! the gov't for making me do

that] are a necessity.  It's the by-roads that illuminate.

 

> Ginsberg and Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not.  And questions about

> the differences between the influences of Buddhism on Jack and Allen.  In

> a way I wish that an epiphany had saved him so that he could have lived

> to write more.

 

Lordy Lordy.  I tell YOU!  I could not live in the same extHistance

plane as a saved Jack Kerouac.  I been saved.  Forget it, there's no

interest accruing .  I don't think it was ever a matter of how much, for

Jack.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:51:38 -0400

Reply-To:     Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>

Subject:      Re: haikus and sexism?

Comments: To: Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <970614125648_318395933@emout01.mail.aol.com>

MIME-Version: 1.0

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On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Maya Gorton wrote:

 

> look, I made the "sexist remark" i admit it.  So hang me.  It was just a

> joke, who could possibly give a rat's ass what Kerouak looked like, i can't

> believe that offended someone.  I think Malcs needs to take a big, fat,

> extra-strength chill pill and not take such things so seriously.  What's the

> harm in noticing that someone's a looker? It's not like it makes me think

> more highly of them.  It's just a fact.  Is he so saintly that he doesn't

> notice a beautiful woman or a fine man or whatever he's into when they walk

> by on the street?  Does it mean he thinks they're better than others? I hope

> not.  And i resent being accused of such superficiality.  I hate this goddam

> country where everyone is supposed to be exactly the same to the point that

> differences between people are a taboo subject.  If I notice that someone's

> pretty or has a big scar or is Asian I cannot make any reference to it in

> anything I say or do.  But THEY know it.

>

> I just wanna say one thing:  GET REAL.  Why ignore the truth when it's in

> your face?

> The truth is, everyone is different.  Some people suck, some are really cool.

>  Some have brown hair, red hair, or blond hair.  Some have

> darker/lighter/frecklier skin than others.  Variety is the spice of life. Why

> pretend it doesn't exist?  I have the ability to love any kind of person, as

> long as they're basically sweet inside.  So what's my crime?

> -------------------------------love and peace and beauty---------maya

>

 

Hey nice tirade.  Your crime is that you're honest.  Could we plan a

hanging soon?

 

[i echoed that because i like what she says]

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 03:10:41 -0400

Reply-To:     Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Sisyphus <sisyphus@POLARIS.MINDPORT.NET>

Subject:      Re: Beat generation.(Kerouac's catholocism)

Comments: To: Rinaldo Rasa <rinaldo@GPNET.IT>

In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19970614235020.00d6fe8c@pop.gpnet.it>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, Rinaldo Rasa wrote:

 

> unluckly 10 years after (circa) JK will die, but i don't think

> his catholicism caused "dark" term of his life,

 

rinaldo rinaldo rinaldo.... he was guilty.  we all are guilty.  from

birth.  jack wanted not salvation, but elevation.  but he was guilty.

it's so hard.  he broke free and showed us it... every so often.  give

thanks.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:46:11 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: Epiphany in kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Jean ORY wrote:

>

> Second point is that Jack Kerouac, thought "Natural Buddhist" didn't

> have any guru who really taught him how to meditate.

>

So you would see the Marin-An mediation period as an unsucessful lesson?

 

> Third point: I agree with that Catholic guilty feeling which should have

> been eradicated through receiving Buddhist teachings from a competent

> teacher and through correct meditation.

 . . .

> A question: Was there any meeting between Shunryu Suzuki, author of "Zen

> Mind, beginner's mind" who was teaching from the beginnings of the

> sixties Soto Zen in San Francisco and the Beat Generation Authors?

> I read that Shunryu Suzuki made a lecture at the last be in concert in

> the sixties along with Lawrence Ferlinghetti and the Grateful Dead

>

> What's about Alan Watts and the Beats?

>

It would be nice to get Nicosia to answer what documented contacts there

are.  Kerouac had to be aware of those people as he moved in Buddhist

circles with Kerouac and with East/West house people such as Lew Welch,

Joanne Kyger, Lorraine Kandel, Tom Field, etc. Watts was a huge presence

in SF in those years and Rexroth was also very knowledgable in Buddhist

matters. All I really know about Jack's meditative practice is what you

get in Dharma Bumms and Desolation Angels.  Would like to hear more

facts about his contacts from the biographical experts.  But it is

interesting that what worked for say Snyder and Kyger, worked only

partially for Lew and Jack.  Whatever they learned sitting and Marin-An

the bottle was still too much for both of them.  And of course it is

rather judgmental to say that Jack and Lew failed.  Their lives were

short, and not particularly happy, but they left great work behind. All

lives are different. Of course Snyder, Kyger and Whalen followed up this

time with intense work in Japan.

 

Thanks for a very interesting post.  Enjoyed your Tangiers

recollections.

 

J Stauffer

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Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:59:53 -0700

Reply-To:     Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

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                                        June 15, 1997

Attila Gyensis writes:

>

>Conflict of this issue is resolved in many different ways. Some people

>continue to have blind belief (sometimes called faith), others try to find

>some inbetween position (zen?), and some take to drink. I think Kerouac's

>drinking came from maintaining outwardly that he had faith in his religion

>and the belief of an afterlife etc, but internally realizing that this might

>not be the case and never being able to come face to face with that.

>

>always enjoy, Attila

>

 

Dear Attila:

        You trivialize Jack Kerouac's faith and spiritual seeking in a not

very kind manner.  Michael McClure considers MEXICO CITY BLUES the most

profound spiritual poem of the 20th century, and I see the Kerouac's oeuvre

as certainly one of the most profound spiritual searches in this century--a

modern equivalent of St. Thomas Aquinas or St. John of the Cross, or perhaps

a closer analogy would be some more unconventional seekers such as

Kierkegaard and Jacob Boehme.

        I don't think Jack "drank because of doubt," as you imply.  Early

on, Jack wrote to John Holmes, "Life is drenched in spirit; it rains

spirit..." and I don't think Jack ever lost that belief at all.  His

kindness, which came from a deep sense of God's love, was manifested even at

the end, when he told Stella "I love you" just before they took him to the

hospital--despite the fact that they had been having the bitterest fights

before then.  That was an act of pure, selfless compassion--whether

"Buddhist" or "Christian" hardly matters, and would be an arbitrary

distinction anyway.

        Jack could not bear to witness human suffering; in fact, any

suffering in this world took an enormous emotional toll on him.  He had a

tremendous sensitivity, a child's sensitivity, but unlike most grown people,

that sensitivity was not dulled or calloused over for self-protection.  He

was a walking open wound, an exceptionally vulnerable person, who was stung

to the quick even by bad reviews written by stupid, incompetent reviewers

(at one point he asked Matsumi Kanemitsu to read him those reviews over the

phone, because he could no longer bear to read them himself).

        The knowledge that "we're all going to die" was why he wrote, he

said, and it was the hardest knowledge of all for him to bear.  Ginsberg

shared this with Jack.  The very mention of death would send cold shivers

through Ginsberg--I witnessed this a couple of times.  They both FELT the

pain of man's mortality far more than most of the people walking this earth.

To stay alive and keep feeling that deeply, Jack had to drink.  For Allen,

sex, fame, and crazy antics worked for a while; at the end, Tibetan Buddhism

helped Allen keep his balance, but he was still--in my view--far too

dependent on the adulation of thousands to help him bear that pain.

        That is not to fault Allen, any more than I can fault Jack for his

drinking.  I'm not here to judge either of them; and certainly the

sensitivity to the human condition they shared, and the spiritual

exploration they did for all of us, is something for which to be very

grateful.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:38:18 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      drugs and epiphany

 

I see a lot of evidence of marijuana-like sensations in Jack (and Ginsberg's)

work.  You know, that feeling when looking at an ordinary object, "Wow I

never saw it that way before!  Now i suddenly understand!"

But who's to say it's because of drugs?  The thing about the sixties is that

now, 30 years later, we take those kind of micro- and macro-perceptions for

granted more than we used to.  But they've always been there in books and

art.

 

(as for kerouac and alcohol...it's not easier to write when you're F***ed up,

even though it does make you more relaxed, it's a psychological crutch that

keeps you from investing all of yourself in your work because you're afraid

and not confident in your ability as an artist) (i had similar experience

with painting and other substance)

 

Before i ever smoked pot,  I already saw things that way.  If you are a

writer or painter you naturally see things that way.  You can stare at an

object and loose all sense of time and just trip out on it, that's how you

study things and decide how you want to represent them.  That's just how you

really SEE them.

 

So there's only a limited amount of ways of perception that drugs can show

you.  This applies to all kinds.  Trust me, you name it i've

sniffed/smoked/shot/drunk/inhaled/swallowed it.  Except peyote, but i'm not

in the mood for a hard-core freak-out.  Anyhow, drugs might make you more

aware of a thought-process, but that process was already there in the first

place.  If you use drugs for creative inspiration or whatnot, just think of

how many thought-processes you might be missing, 'cause you can only see the

ones you get from drugs.

 

 It's much better to take the insights you got from knowing how the drug

works on your brain, and when you're sober, make yourself really listen to

your thoughts and perceptions.  It's kind of like meditation of sorts.  Once

you are absolutely aware and conscious of every thought in your head, you

will have a thousand epiphanies at once, and i guarantee you will never run

out of inspiration.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:51:48 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: epiphany in Kerouac

 

In a message dated 97-06-14 12:43:55 EDT, you write:

 

<<  Maybe that leads to some more questions about how

 Ginsberg and Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not.   >>

 

I have heard and firmly believe that heroin use over a prolonged period of

time actually slows down the aging process.  Hence the long life of Burroughs

and Hunke the Junky.  (of course one should avoid OD for this to stand) It

does things to your nervous system (relaxes certain elements and stimulates

others) so that your metabolism changes and time sort of slows down for your

body.  Bodily processes slow down.   It's like a preservative of sorts.

 

----------------just an idea------------------------------maya

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:58:03 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

 

In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:

 

<<

 But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no

 meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there isn't

 what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted of

 doing? >>

 

Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least, that

all humans are part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from his

species, and therefore harming another human means harming the species, and

that goes against our basic biological instinct and is therefore translated

into "morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:05:26 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: epiphany in Kerouac

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> Marioka7@aol.com wrote:

> >

> > In a message dated 97-06-13 14:11:48 EDT, you write:

> >

> > <<

> >  I have often wondered why Jack drank so much if he had actually touched

> >  the wonderfulness of the universe in this way.  Why was he able to write

> >  about such things but not be more positive in living his own life?

> >  Ginsberg went through much darkness but remained positive in living and

> >  in writing.

> >  DC

> >   >>

> > maybe he wasn't as great as some think.  didn't he die at home where he was

> > living with his mom or something?  i used to romanticize tragedy and

> > self-destruction but now i see that it is a sign of weakness.  Probably

> > because i almost self-destructed myself, i see that there's no good in it

 and

> > nothing to admire.

I don't see it so much of a sign of weakness as being stuck in a journey.

The writers we are talking about were disillusioned about themselves to

some extent, disillusioned about America, and at certain times didn't see

much hope in the situation.  Their writings, however, reflect a certain

brightness in the moment, a way to celebrate their own lives and that of

America.  When I went to college, it seemed like everyone pursued

self-destruction, me included, and the idea was that the only way to be

creative, to write or whatever, was to engage the darkest part of the

soul, and from the darkest moments came the best writing.

Thankfully most of us moved out of the idea that to write means to

self-destruct.  That's why I think Ginsberg is such a good

example of what a person can achieve over the course of a

lifetime.  He touched the darkest parts of himself but came

through them.  When I was in college everyone was reading Sylvia Plath

and Ann Sexton, and following their somewhat hopeless paths.  To think

that you have to be self-destructive to be an artist is absurd, but if

you are the one caught in that hopelessness, it doesn't seem so at the

time.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:24:47 -0400

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: epiphany in Kerouac

Comments: To: Marioka7@AOL.COM

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

Is HUNKE still alive?  I haven't heard anything from or about him lately.

 

Thanks.

 

 

At 02:51 PM 6/15/97 -0400, Maya Gorton wrote:

>In a message dated 97-06-14 12:43:55 EDT, you write:

>

><<  Maybe that leads to some more questions about how

> Ginsberg and Burroughs survived and Kerouac did not.   >>

>

>I have heard and firmly believe that heroin use over a prolonged period of

>time actually slows down the aging process.  Hence the long life of Burroughs

>and Hunke the Junky.  (of course one should avoid OD for this to stand) It

>does things to your nervous system (relaxes certain elements and stimulates

>others) so that your metabolism changes and time sort of slows down for your

>body.  Bodily processes slow down.   It's like a preservative of sorts.

>

>----------------just an idea------------------------------maya

>

>

Greg Elwell                    elwellg@voicenet.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:22:54 -0400

Reply-To:     ProDuo@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         ProDuo@AOL.COM

Subject:      written creative expression contest

 

Hello, sorry to intrude on your e-mail.  Just wanted to know if you are

interested in an opportunity to win house in Rhinebeck, NY by entering a fee

based contest.  If so, please e-mail us or go to

http://www.wegrew.com/winahouse.  If you can, we'd  love to hear from you.

 Thank you.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:24:52 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> DC:

> Allen has recited some of Pound's greatest lines to me which indicates

> certainly that aesthetic form (and you have to equate Pound with that) can

> also be memorable words.

> Charles Plymell

 

I would have to agree that there certainly are memorable words in

aesthetic form and also in what I hesitate to call, but will

call formlessness.  Certainly Pound had a tremendous influence on

Ginsberg as did Blake, and several other great poets.  But I also don't

see why reciting Eliot to students to illuminate existential motifs would

be any more effective than an introduction to the personal

consciousness/freedom, angst/searching of beat writers.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 16:41:08 -0400

Reply-To:     Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Carl A Biancucci <carl@WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject:      Heroin as Youth Preserver?

In-Reply-To:  <vines.47J8+Vj+8nA@S1.DRC.COM> from "mARK hEMENWAY" at Mar 13,

              97 09:14:53 am

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While I find it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after

being as heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with

the idea that 'the big H' retards aging...

 

I had the pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders

(guitarist for The New York Dolls) in 1982.

At 30,he had liver spots!

 

Seen a recent picture over the last 5 years (or more)

of Iggy Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?

These folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older

than their years for quite some time;

I don't think it's coincidence that each was/(is?)

a long time H user.

 

I tip my hat to any and all that can kicksmack  AND maintain some semblance

of youth;I just don't believe it's a given.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:59:45 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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>James Stauffer wrote:

>

>

> Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here.  Much as I love

> Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable

> things.  I think he had an awful influence on modern poetry, but "Love

> Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty damn

> wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without Pounds

> help.  And what's wrong with a poet being obsessed with "form" and being

> "poetic"?  Seems to me that this is what poetry is about?

>

> And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to

> argue with.

>

> J Stauffer.

 

Ah, but see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from

earlier in the century.  Is poetry about being "poetic?" or is it

also about something beyond that?  Eliot wrote wonderful poems, even I

agree with that, even if I can't recite them from memory.  But I think

the argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to

another.  If Eliot had read Howl, would he have thought it was poetic?

Hard to say what dead men think, but I bet not.  Do you think Howl is

poetic?  Do you think Kaddish is poetic?  I do, but not for any of the

same reasons that Eliot is poetic.  Form does not make one poetic.

Inspiration makes one poetic.  All poets are also not visionaries,

doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of

consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time period

in which he/her is writing.  Blake was a visionary.  Whitman was a

visionary.  Ginsberg was a visionary. Each of them was poetic but took

poetry to a level beyond poetic.  I cannot imagine comtemporary poetry

without Ginsberg and the barriors he broke.  I simply cannot see Eliot's

contributions in the same way.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:15:35 -0700

Reply-To:     Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

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Maya Gorton wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:

>

> <<

>  But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no

>  meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there isn't

>  what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted of

>  doing? >>

>

> Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least, that

> all humans are part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from his

> species, and therefore harming another human means harming the species, and

> that goes against our basic biological instinct and is therefore translated

> into "morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.

 

If there is truly no meaning to life, there is nothing wrong with what

the Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh was convicted of doing.  If

there is no meaning, the universe is random and humans and their acts are

totally random.  There is nothing upon which to base a moral choice.

There is no right and wrong.  In a no meaning scenario, there is nothing

that makes harming another human good or bad.  Biological instinct

would be random.  Nothing would be better or worse than any other

thing.  Humans would exist and die randomly, total cause and effect, no

emotion.

DC

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:11:05 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 18:17:13 EDT, you write:

 

<<

 Maya Gorton wrote:

 >

 > In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:

 >

 > <<

 >  But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no

 >  meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there

isn't

 >  what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted

of

 >  doing? >>

 >

 > Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least,

that

 > all humans are part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from

his

 > species, and therefore harming another human means harming the species,

and

 > that goes against our basic biological instinct and is therefore

translated

 > into "morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.

 

 If there is truly no meaning to life, there is nothing wrong with what

 the Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh was convicted of doing.  If

 there is no meaning, the universe is random and humans and their acts are

 totally random.  There is nothing upon which to base a moral choice.

 There is no right and wrong.  In a no meaning scenario, there is nothing

 that makes harming another human good or bad.  Biological instinct

 would be random.  Nothing would be better or worse than any other

 thing.  Humans would exist and die randomly, total cause and effect, no

 emotion.

 DC

  >>

 

What do you mean by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely.  You oppose

it to "randomness" and the absence of morality.  But can't there be meaning

in chaos and beyond the polarity of good and bad?

 

I guess what i was saying is that there is no intrinsic Meaning common to all

humans.  Nazis & Mcveigh however, to use your examples, did not commit their

atrocitites in the absence of meaning.  On the contrary, they had a clearer

purpose and vision than most of us, sordid as it was.  If they thought there

was no meaning to life, they probably wouldn't have done what they did.

 

 It is up to each individual to invent a meaning for life.  In the absence of

any meaning whatsoever, we lose the ability to act entirely.  We wouldn't

even eat, just sit and drool on ourselves and rot away.  (I've been there

when absurdity looms).  Even acts of violence need meaning behind them to

occur.

 

So, yes, you're right in that their acts wouldn't be wrong, but I don't think

that they would have done them in the first place if life had no meaning.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:29:11 +0000

Reply-To:     wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>

Subject:      lurker speaks

MIME-Version: 1.0

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DC,

        Quoting Alexander Pope:  "True ease in writing comes from art, not

chance/ as those move easiest who have learned to dance"

(Essay on Criticism)  Let's see...you say that TS Eliot is not

memorable?....off the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/

breeding lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring

dull roots with spring rain/  Winter kept us warm/ Covering earth in

forgetful snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers"   An astounding

beginning..... I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th

C lit..cross referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,

etc......and I've never really had occasion to cross reference to

Ginsberg...I think that speaks volumes.  I also tend to quote Eliot

when  speaking to people on the topic of despair/hopelessness...in real

life situations....  (more later...kids are fighting...life)

sorry about how I triedto post this earlier...it didn't work obviously

(and I still don't have quite enough time to expound on my ideas of

Pound and Eliot.....hopefully tonight I'll get more than ten minutes at

a stretch)

Barb

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:56:45 -0400

Reply-To:     Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Greg Elwell <elwellg@VOICENET.COM>

Subject:      Re: Heroin as Youth Preserver?

Comments: To: carl@world.std.com

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 04:41 PM 6/15/97 -0400, Carl A Biancucci wrote:

>While I find it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after

>being as heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with

>the idea that 'the big H' retards aging...

>

>I had the pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders

>(guitarist for The New York Dolls) in 1982.

>At 30,he had liver spots!

>

>Seen a recent picture over the last 5 years (or more)

>of Iggy Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?

>These folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older

>than their years for quite some time;

>I don't think it's coincidence that each was/(is?)

>a long time H user.

>

>I tip my hat to any and all that can kicksmack  AND maintain some semblance

>of youth;I just don't believe it's a given.

 

To quote Burroughs in JUNKY, he says, "I think I am in better health now as

a result of using junk at intervals than I would be if I had never been an

addict...Most users periodically kick the habit, which involves shrinking

of the organism and replacement of the junk-dependant cells."

 

I'm not sure if this is true and in no way back this up, due to the lack of

knowledge in the science field.  Burroughs goes on to say that if you

continuously shrink cells by continuing to kick the habit, you may perhaps

live to a phenomonal age, because you'll constantly be growing.

 

I DON'T KNOW!  I have seen pictures of some of the people that you've

mentioned, and you're absolutely right.  But then again, Burroughs is still

alive...  It's interesting(I think).

 

 

Greg Elwell                    elwellg@voicenet.com

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:39:02 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Gerry's post on Kerouac

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 

Thank you for such a fine post Gerry.  I always felt that Jack drank to

"dull" the pain of his awareness.  His mind took in every little detail

and seemingly forgot nothing.  What a burden to bear!  Last Thursday

while at Bancroft, I was able to review and read some of Jack's letters

to Lawrence Ferlinghetti.  In one he said that he prayed every night for

all living things to enter heaven and that is the work of a man.  I

believe his work shows a "conflict" that would be natural for a devoute

Catholic who realized there was more to spirituality than the man made

church.

 

I appreciate the thoughts and comments Gerry.

 

Peace

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:46:35 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

> Ah, but see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from

> earlier in the century.  Is poetry about being "poetic?" or is it

> also about something beyond that?  Eliot wrote wonderful poems, even I

>

> agree with that, even if I can't recite them from memory.  But I think

>

> the argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to

> another.  If Eliot had read Howl, would he have thought it was poetic?

>

> Hard to say what dead men think, but I bet not.  Do you think Howl is

> poetic?  Do you think Kaddish is poetic?  I do, but not for any of the

>

> same reasons that Eliot is poetic.  Form does not make one poetic.

> Inspiration makes one poetic.  All poets are also not visionaries,

> doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of

> consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time

> period

> in which he/her is writing.  Blake was a visionary.  Whitman was a

> visionary.  Ginsberg was a visionary. Each of them was poetic but took

>

> poetry to a level beyond poetic.  I cannot imagine comtemporary poetry

>

> without Ginsberg and the barriors he broke.  I simply cannot see

> Eliot's

> contributions in the same way.

> DC

 

 

It would seem to me that more than anything, Allen G broke the

stranglehold that the academicians had on poetry and opened the door for

more natural poetry.  During my visit with Norse I asked him about this

and he quoted me Eliot.  He said that Eliot and WSB are much the same in

voice but that Eliot went English and WSB remained American in voice.

He also said that it was no sin that Pound edited Eliot and that he had

edited many of the beats, including Allen and that it was very painful

to Allen.  I am sorry to appear to name drop this, but I asked him as I

wanted to bring it to the list and he gave me permission to pass it

along.  Harold is going to check with some friends to see if they can

help him get on the list.  He said he would like that very much as he

can not get out in public much and has not spoken with Charles and Gerry

in a while.

 

I do not mean to sound melodramatic, but Norse is a giant in a small

body.  I feel a changed person for the six hours I spent with him.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:06:45 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

Comments: To: Diane Carter <dcarter@TOGETHER.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 

Diane Carter wrote:

 

> >James Stauffer wrote:

> >

> >

> > Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here.  Much as I

> love

> > Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable

> > things.  I think he had an awful influence on modern poetry, but

> "Love

> > Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty damn

> > wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without

> Pounds

> > help.  And what's wrong with a poet being obsessed with "form" and

> being

> > "poetic"?  Seems to me that this is what poetry is about?

> >

> > And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough

> to

> > argue with.

> >

> > J Stauffer.

>

> Ah, but see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from

> earlier in the century.  Is poetry about being "poetic?" or is it

> also about something beyond that?  Eliot wrote wonderful poems, even I

>

> agree with that, even if I can't recite them from memory.  But I think

>

> the argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to

> another.  If Eliot had read Howl, would he have thought it was poetic?

>

> Hard to say what dead men think, but I bet not.  Do you think Howl is

> poetic?  Do you think Kaddish is poetic?  I do, but not for any of the

>

> same reasons that Eliot is poetic.  Form does not make one poetic.

> Inspiration makes one poetic.  All poets are also not visionaries,

> doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of

> consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time

> period

> in which he/her is writing.  Blake was a visionary.  Whitman was a

> visionary.  Ginsberg was a visionary. Each of them was poetic but took

>

> poetry to a level beyond poetic.  I cannot imagine comtemporary poetry

>

> without Ginsberg and the barriors he broke.  I simply cannot see

> Eliot's

> contributions in the same way.

> DC

 

 DC:

 

In Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and

what that means to our souls.  He was part of what opened the door for

Allen, WSB and many more.  Perhaps he became "affected" or perhaps his

great works number only a few, but what he said in the one poem is

astounding, especially if you look at the period.

 

Peace,

 

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:30:10 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: NOW

 

In a message dated 97-06-14 04:40:57 EDT, you write:

 

<< I stuck that copy of GRIST in an envelope and have it ready to mail off

'cept I

 can't find where I put it! Soon as I find it, it's yours. Wondered if you

were

 interested in writing out a part of Apocalypse Rose for me in trade as that

is

 one of my favorite poems. I'd like to frame it for my own "poetry musuem."

  >>

Dave:

I'd love to do a little collage and script of the Apocalypse Rose poem.

Though Dave Haselwood did such a wonderful job on his turn of the century

hand set letterpress edition it is hard to beat. And I don't have a very good

script hand like S. Clay or Robert Crumb but I'll try something. You'll have

to memorize the whole Apocalypse Rose poem thought (just kidding).

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:34:17 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 01:20:52 EDT, you write:

 

<< And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough to

 argue with.

  >>

Well, I'm sorry. I forgot about Blakes songs. I thought everyone knew them by

heart. I used to dramatize and recite TIGER for K thru 5th grade at local

school. I thought all teachers and parents did that. I'd forgotten how things

changed. I went to a one room schoolhouse during those grades. The teacher

made me stand in the corner and memorize poetry all the time for being bad.

One day she mader me go oustide to "find my thinking cap" I brought to her an

old dried animal turd.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:05:26 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: drugs and epiphany

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 14:45:22 EDT, you write:

 

<<  Except peyote, but i'm not

 in the mood for a hard-core freak-out. >>

 

Peyote has a soft core actually. Used to send for a carton of hundred plants

back in Kansas in the 50s.  It was just that flesh-like consistency and the

taste. Just thinking about the taste sent shivers through. My old peyote

eating buddy used to say: "it tastes like bile from the devil's asshole."

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:14:38 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Pickled old souls

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 14:59:25 EDT, you write:

 

<< Bodily processes slow down.   It's like a preservative of sorts.

  >>

Yeah they're both beautifully pickled old souls. You just got to know your

intake and watch your metabolism. No foolishness or you'll be fucked.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:17:03 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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i must say i'm enjoying this.

 

i've been grappling with a sense of pointlessness recently.  i can't say

that it has encouraged me to bomb or root for McVeigh.  but i can't say

that i've been in a condemning mood either.

 

derek had an interesting insight the other day that "pointlessness" and

"meaninglessness" are sisters but not twins.  i'm not certain if he

thought of it or i did or if it hit us both as our fingertips slashed

ferociously at our keyboards.

 

obvious that different notions of "meaning" "Meaning" "MEANING" are at

play.  not to downplay the moralists, but i hope that there is more of a

point to life than in condeming the acts of Hitler, McVeigh, Custer and

the slavetraders.  if the meaning of life is derived from NOT doing

something, sitting and drooling might be about as meaningful as

Einsteinian genius.  if i ramble as you read this it is to be expected,

it is difficult to come to a point, let alone a clear one, when it the

grips of pointlessness.

 

but i do enjoy the discussion.

 

i thought Gerry Nicosia was ON TARGET (was it in this thread - i don't

really recall) - in mentioning the notion of "sensitiveness" and i liked

that the sensitiveness is connected to mortality but also connected to

sight ... it seems the loss of death is made greater by the beauty

witnessed in the mortal world.

 

of course, none of this may make any sense and i am more than willing to

accept that critique.

 

i must say though that the meaning of life may best be experienced on a

stoop watching a Kansas thunderstorm roll in.  The soul of the universe

opens up and weeps all over us here on the plains.  and the point of

life may be found at the tip of a lightning bolt.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

Maya Gorton wrote:

>

> In a message dated 97-06-15 18:17:13 EDT, you write:

>

> <<

>  Maya Gorton wrote:

>  >

>  > In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, you write:

>  >

>  > <<

>  >  But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no

>  >  meaning to life (I'm not sying there is or isn't), but assuming there

> isn't

>  >  what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted

> of

>  >  doing? >>

>  >

>  > Ok, there's no MEANING, but there is a basic belief on my part at least,

> that

>  > all humans are part of a whole, that the individual is not separate from

> his

>  > species, and therefore harming another human means harming the species,

> and

>  > that goes against our basic biological instinct and is therefore

> translated

>  > into "morally wrong" and we cannot allow it.

>

>  If there is truly no meaning to life, there is nothing wrong with what

>  the Nazis did or with what Timothy McVeigh was convicted of doing.  If

>  there is no meaning, the universe is random and humans and their acts are

>  totally random.  There is nothing upon which to base a moral choice.

>  There is no right and wrong.  In a no meaning scenario, there is nothing

>  that makes harming another human good or bad.  Biological instinct

>  would be random.  Nothing would be better or worse than any other

>  thing.  Humans would exist and die randomly, total cause and effect, no

>  emotion.

>  DC

>   >>

>

> What do you mean by "meaning"? Not sure i understand completely.  You oppose

> it to "randomness" and the absence of morality.  But can't there be meaning

> in chaos and beyond the polarity of good and bad?

>

> I guess what i was saying is that there is no intrinsic Meaning common to all

> humans.  Nazis & Mcveigh however, to use your examples, did not commit their

> atrocitites in the absence of meaning.  On the contrary, they had a clearer

> purpose and vision than most of us, sordid as it was.  If they thought there

> was no meaning to life, they probably wouldn't have done what they did.

>

>  It is up to each individual to invent a meaning for life.  In the absence of

> any meaning whatsoever, we lose the ability to act entirely.  We wouldn't

> even eat, just sit and drool on ourselves and rot away.  (I've been there

> when absurdity looms).  Even acts of violence need meaning behind them to

> occur.

>

> So, yes, you're right in that their acts wouldn't be wrong, but I don't think

> that they would have done them in the first place if life had no meaning.

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:41 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

R. Bentz Kirby wrote:

>

> Diane Carter wrote:

>

> > >James Stauffer wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Not the lurker, but I'd agree with him and Charles here.  Much as I

> > love

> > > Allen, he is not in TSE's class as a writer or truly unforgettable

> > > things.  I think he had an awful influence on modern poetry, but

> > "Love

> > > Song", "The Waste Land" and "Four Quartets" are pretty damn

> > > wonderful--even if they may not have been nearly so good without

> > Pounds

> > > help.  And what's wrong with a poet being obsessed with "form" and

> > being

> > > "poetic"?  Seems to me that this is what poetry is about?

> > >

> > > And thank you Diane for posting things that are interesting enough

> > to

> > > argue with.

> > >

> > > J Stauffer.

> >

> > Ah, but see that is where I think Ginsberg went beyond the poets from

> > earlier in the century.  Is poetry about being "poetic?" or is it

> > also about something beyond that?  Eliot wrote wonderful poems, even I

> >

> > agree with that, even if I can't recite them from memory.  But I think

> >

> > the argument here goes beyond the personal taste of one poet to

> > another.  If Eliot had read Howl, would he have thought it was poetic?

> >

> > Hard to say what dead men think, but I bet not.  Do you think Howl is

> > poetic?  Do you think Kaddish is poetic?  I do, but not for any of the

> >

> > same reasons that Eliot is poetic.  Form does not make one poetic.

> > Inspiration makes one poetic.  All poets are also not visionaries,

> > doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of

> > consciousness. Not every poet transends the framework of the time

> > period

> > in which he/her is writing.  Blake was a visionary.  Whitman was a

> > visionary.  Ginsberg was a visionary. Each of them was poetic but took

> >

> > poetry to a level beyond poetic.  I cannot imagine comtemporary poetry

> >

> > without Ginsberg and the barriors he broke.  I simply cannot see

> > Eliot's

> > contributions in the same way.

> > DC

>

>  DC:

>

> In Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and

> what that means to our souls.  He was part of what opened the door for

> Allen, WSB and many more.  Perhaps he became "affected" or perhaps his

> great works number only a few, but what he said in the one poem is

> astounding, especially if you look at the period.

>

> Peace,

>

> --

> Bentz

> bocelts@scsn.net

>

> http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

 

i guess i'm gonna have to get off my illiterate ass and finally read

this damn Love Song to Whomever.  the way people had always talked about

it, it was easy to dismiss as Affected Trash without even giving it a

look.  but the way it has been discussed here recently, it sounds worth

more than a quick glance.  thanks for the insights.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

p.s. i realize that admitting i've not bothered to read such a work is

grounds for stoning in some circles....

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:28:25 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 13:03:15 EDT, you write:

 

<< They both FELT the

 pain of man's mortality far more than most of the people walking this earth.

>>

 

Gerry:

Yeah, Tha't the whole thing really. Some have this "singularity flashback"

more often and painful than do others. They know that the purpose and truth

will not be revealed, so any path that works, take it. Religions become

arbitrary at this point. Perhaps one of the limitations of the beat ethos may

be that during their time in history, they had to deal with those

conventions. In the postmodern transition into the next millenium the

abstraction of religions may give way to how we can survive as humans. Pound

also claimed when men were more like gods and women more like goddesses in

the ancient world, they had more gods closer to them rather than abstracted

to form as in formality; therefore, they began acting less like gods.

BTW I still remember Allen's observation of "mechanized faces" of the 50's,

presumably in Methodist and Baptist Ministers. I see those same faces in the

Naropa hierachy as mentioned in those earlier post about drunken [fools]. Of

course everything in life Hunter Thomspson shooting on T.V. (very original

redneck stuff) to literary works are designed to keep us from thinking about

that painful unaswerable singularity.

 

Now we have gender correctness on the list after thousands of years! Boys and

girls, I'm here to tell you that you have different pee-pees. Let's make it a

national concern before this melinium closes!

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:28:48 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      seperated at birth?...

 

>list. Hell yeah, Kerouac was gorgeous, everybody notices that, so what the

>fuck's wrong with pointing it out, ya' know? People need to get a sense of

 

 

compeltely off topic of the original message here, but I'm currently

reading _Off the Road_, & there are pictures of both Kerouac & Neal

Cassady...now this is compeltely superficial here, but am I the only one

who thinks that the two guys look like they could be biological brothers?

 

Diane.

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:36:16 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Heroin as Youth Preserver?

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Greg Elwell wrote:

>

> At 04:41 PM 6/15/97 -0400, Carl A Biancucci wrote:

> >While I find it amazing that Burroughs is still with us after

> >being as heroin user for as long as he was,I must disagee with

> >the idea that 'the big H' retards aging...

> >

> >I had the pleasure of meeting the late great Johnny Thunders

> >(guitarist for The New York Dolls) in 1982.

> >At 30,he had liver spots!

> >

> >Seen a recent picture over the last 5 years (or more)

> >of Iggy Pop,Marianne Faithful,Keith Richards,Ginger Baker?

> >These folks,while no longer spring chickens,have looked older

> >than their years for quite some time;

> >I don't think it's coincidence that each was/(is?)

> >a long time H user.

> >

> >I tip my hat to any and all that can kicksmack  AND maintain some semblance

> >of youth;I just don't believe it's a given.

>

> To quote Burroughs in JUNKY, he says, "I think I am in better health now as

> a result of using junk at intervals than I would be if I had never been an

> addict...Most users periodically kick the habit, which involves shrinking

> of the organism and replacement of the junk-dependant cells."

>

> I'm not sure if this is true and in no way back this up, due to the lack of

> knowledge in the science field.  Burroughs goes on to say that if you

> continuously shrink cells by continuing to kick the habit, you may perhaps

> live to a phenomonal age, because you'll constantly be growing.

>

> I DON'T KNOW!  I have seen pictures of some of the people that you've

> mentioned, and you're absolutely right.  But then again, Burroughs is still

> alive...  It's interesting(I think).

>

> Greg Elwell                    elwellg@voicenet.com

 

And Keith Richards looks ancient until he touches his guitar and then

his facial muscles are altered (by bodily memory perhaps?) and he

appears transformed to a much much younger ghost.

 

unfortunately acquaintances of Keith's like Gram Parsons now appear only

as ashes on the winds of a desert.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:32:58 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

Comments: To: RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 

RACE --- wrote:

<snip a lot>

 

> david rhaesa

> salina, Kansas

>

> p.s. i realize that admitting i've not bothered to read such a work is

>

> grounds for stoning in some circles....

 

 

Well, David, you know what kind of stoning you would get on the Dylan

list I hope.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:40:04 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>

> One day she mader me go oustide to "find my thinking cap" I brought to her an

> old dried animal turd.

 

wonderful tale.

i can see you at the one room schoolhouse as the rains fall here on the

plains.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:51:23 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: lurker #254

 

Need to send this to the list.

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: lurker #254

Date:    97-06-15 23:26:36 EDT

From:    CVEditions

To:      dcarter@together.net

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:

 

<<  All poets are also not visionaries,

 doesn't make them bad poets, just poets who are stuck in one plane of

 consciousness >>

DC

Seems like that old chliche really took hold. Hard to shake learnin'. Make

all thingssequal, yeah. Have you read Michael Finley In The Temple?

http//www.wwics.com/~tsunami

Ask Charley Potts (editor) about that poem he turned me on to. Or, we can all

play catch up from the old beat generation...almost 50 yrs ago. Make in

newer?

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:53:43 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

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Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

>  Boys and

> girls, I'm here to tell you that you have different pee-pees. Let's make it a

> national concern before this melinium closes!

> Charles Plymell

 

Perhaps in his own Arkansinian way this is what Billy Clinton was

"allegedely" trying to show Paula.

 

3 cigarettes before i must brave the storm to score another pack.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:57:01 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Fwd: lurker #254

 

I don't like this new mail system, it makes for too much extra work. Bill

can't we go back to the old?

CP

---------------------

Forwarded message:

Subj:    Re: lurker #254

Date:    97-06-15 23:33:07 EDT

From:    CVEditions

To:      dcarter@together.net

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 17:59:38 EDT, you write:

 

<< Inspiration makes one poetic. >>

DC

Read any inspirational poetry recently? I get books of it in the mail. I'd be

glad to send you some. Most of them come from Arizona and Southern

California. Lots of inspirational poets out there, too.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:57:51 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

 

In a message dated 97-06-15 23:28:07 EDT, you write:

 

<< In Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics and

 what that means to our souls. >>

Is that the line "but as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in patterns on a

screen" I don't have the text.  I used to know the whole thing by heart. BTW

Tesla memorized Twain's novels because books were scarce back in his country.

He memorized Faust.too. That's how he came up with Alternating Current. We

use his memory tonight!

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:37:59 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Insomniatic Musings #45

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>From FireWalk Thru Madness Collection, copyright December 1992 David B.

Rhaesa

 

YAHTZEE

 

Rolling dice on Madonna=92s Face, Helter Skelter by my side (the book not

the song).  Billie Holiday sang autumn blues with Louis Armstrong and

Tofu burgers and sqaush that was fun to make but we didn=92t eat it.  Her

first kitchen failure.  It happens to the best of us ... Failures.=20

there=92s no success like failure and failure=92s no success at all.  Dyl=

an

said that.  The squash sat in the frij for quite awhile.  She couldn=92t

bear to waste it ... But secretly she believed that it would age like a

good wine.  Or that after some bad wine it might taste like a sweet

success.

 

 

North says most Americans believe Charlie was a mass murderer - But he

didn=92t do the deeds.  Not Tate ...Not LaBianca.  Charlie Manson/Not

Charlie Starkweather And the Boss said it was because =93there=92s a

meannness in this world.=94  But those weren=92t Charlie=92s words ... Ju=

st

the Boss pretending to be Charlie.  Like on Halloween....The only day

we=92re encouraged to be somebody else.  The only day we=92re encouraged =

to

go beyond our personality.  I put my name in a drawing at Taco Bell to

see the Boss on Halloween in Minneapolis where Dylan started out.  I

wonder who the Boss will be for Halloween this year.

 

I=92d like to talk to Charlie Manson.  The documentary showed his defense

attorney and Bugliosi and Charlie and I had to feel inside like Bugliosi

was crazier than Charlie.  I=92d really like to meet him you know I

haven=92t admitted that to many people.  So much of what he says makes

sense, but I just don=92t understand the anger, the violence I want him

explain the anger to me.  Depressives have anger that they don=92t feel

they deserve to have.  Mass murdereds feel they deserve anger that they

don=92t have ... Random anger.  Random killings.  And I want to ask

Charlie why.  His lawyer says that there was a lot of love on the farm.=20

But why does the love get criss-crossed with hatred, with bigotry.  What

synapses aren=92t firing.  What combination of chemicals is out of

balance....in Charlie ... in Bugliosi and why was he the one fate chose

for such a chemical makeup, for such a tragic role rather than me.

 

Yahtzee!!!

 

I=92m rolling dice on Madonna=92s face and listening to Nine Inch Nails

drive their spikes through my soul while I think of the Boss again.=20

Just a roll of the dice.  Like Yahtzee.  Like Nietzsche.  Like Mallarme

=93Un Coup De Das=94  It=92s just a roll of the dice - the difference bet=

ween

Charlie and me, Charlie and you - Manson or Starkweather.  It=92s random

chance.  Fate.

 

Rolling on Madonna=92s face and Lady Madonna looks up and says what are

the odds of a virgin birth? and the mathematician and the biologist say

zero and the priest says miracles can happen just like accidents in

disguise.  Then she tells me that Yahtzee isn=92t completely random.  I

hear Burroughs query =93How random is random?=94  As I flash on the

sensitive, new age, marathon man who believes =93there are no accidents.=94=

=20

I think Seth told him that in a book.  I fool with him by declaring that

my philosophy is =93there are only accidents.=94  Belief in complete

non-randomness and in complete randomness - Marathoner in contrast to

chain smoker and only the smoker knows that they=92re really saying the

same thing.  There may be no accidents but it seems like there are only

accidents.  We know so little of what we know that what seems accidental

isn=92t and what seems incidental isn=92t and God is a Bullet or is God d=

ead

and have we killed him.  They said Dylan was God.  But I think they were

joking.

 

And Kerouac=92s Dead.  Lying over there on the floor.  Dead 23 years and

two days.  And gazing into his eyes I see Pooh Bear.  Was it on a night

like this that he said God was Pooh Bear or that Hoffman started the Tao

of Pooh?  And if God is Dead does Nietzsche believe Pooh is dead too?=20

And if he=92s dead who will say =93Oh Bother,=94 and who will eat the hon=

ey.

 

A used copy of =93Howl=94 on the porch where my patch sister smokes a pip=

e.=20

Before the water ritual cleansed it from her.  The best minds of a

generation.  Minds lost somewhere between the monotony of the fifties

and the monotony of the nineties.  Are you bored?  I asked the lost

minds, the best lost minds of a geenration, lost esarching for a place

where life can have meaning somewhere between interzone and Casablanca

they walk aimlessly searching for something that doesn=92t exist ... the

bliss.

 

The best minds of a generation, the lost generation, Veblen=92s Theory of

the Leisure Class, the lost generation is real and it=92s still around

playing games on hardwood floors listening to jazz rolling dice while

the working class work their work, hardwood floors with Helter Skelter

and Kerouac for carpet and Burrough=92s tape still unexplored.

 

Cut ups.  Finding the lost generation in interzone by cutting through

the present, cutting through the New York Times, cutting through the

King James Version, cutting the the Pope=92s picture like Sinead O=92Conn=

or

one Saturday Night.  I cut up the Supreme Court in my closet last fall

and then Aunt Abby ended up working for O=92Connor  - Sandra not Sinead. =

=20

 

Sinead says it=92s all about child abuse ... that=92s what she=92s say ab=

out

Charlie, I bet.  And how random is child abuse?  It is just a roll of

the dice that says what child will be beaten will be fucked, a roll of

the dice like a small straight better not take my chance yet I=92ll take

zero for my large straight still hoping for a Yahtzee, like the Lottery,

the Publisher=92s Clearinghouse, the Reader=92s Digest Sweepstakes to pul=

l

me out of this trap, this tunnel.  And if I roll the dice or chant the

chants the white witch taught me will I win the prize?  If I do will it

be an accident or destiny or both at the same time.

 

Randomness and chaos.  one wonders sometimes how the mathematicians can

sleep at night with their naive belief in probability.  Last winter in a

maniacal frenzy I wrote a note to the mathematician who I didn=92t yet

know.  I asked a simple question:

 

=93What is the probability that you are reading this right now?=94

 

Well, one would have to determine the probability of me writing it and

you finding it and both of those involve an infinite number of possible

options, alternatives, like if i=92d decided to watch Saturday Night Live

tonight instead of writing these random words, and as the probability

approaches a solution you hear that your grandfather was almost killed

escaping from the firing squad of a Nazi concentration camp and my

ex-wife=92s mother knew people who knew Charlie Starkweather and maybe I

would have stopped in Rulo Nebraska and been killed by the creatures who

pass for people there...and so you decide that the odds are infinity to

one or one in infiinity and you realize that I have a greater chance of

winning the Reader=92s Digest Sweepstakes than of you reading this note

and you close your math book and head for a nudist colony where you can

read poetry and surf with monkeys, an artist colony randomly created, a

genetic accident and you wonder about things and accidents.

 

And Dylan and the Dead are riding on the Slow Train and Knockin=92 on

Heaven=92s Door and it brings you back to the hardwood floor and my brain

hurts from the storms of past/present/and future.  The coffee is gone.=20

I drink it black.  Straight poison.  Like Arsenic in Elderberry wine -

Jonathan, Aunt Abby and Charlie drinking wine with Pooh Bear and Piglet

and the dice roll and Wendy dies, Peter Pan dies and the Voodoo can=92t

save them.  it=92s random, it=92s accidents -- or not

 

Which dice will you choose to roll next time?

 

Kerouac=92s dead on the floor.  Charlie=92s dead in a prison.  Kennedy is

dead.  And Dylan and the Dead are on break and Billie Holiday is singing

about Wishes and Stars and Moons.  Why doe we wish if there are no

accidents?  I wonder out loud.  And I ask Kerouac to tell me the answer

- but he=92s dead on the floor ... and i=92m in the attic and the VCR is

downstairs and I still can=92t figure out how to make it stop flashing

12:00 like on the cartoon this morning, but I thought i=92d be seeing a

Yellow Submarine by now, As I pound th keys wishing for an accident with

her, but Elvis says accidents will happen, I guess you don=92t wish for

them they just hit you when you aren=92t looking, and she hands me a new

scorepad and I can=92t quite understand why there=92s no sex in this drea=

m,

yet and she puts on the Carpenters =93Close to You=94  And it=92s time to=

 play

Yahtzee again.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:02:15 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      drugs and guns

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I have nothing to say about drugs and guns and the beats, but i do know

that catholism and drink are old buddies, and guilt and loving the

sunrise somehow go together.  The really great writers often start

drinking the hard stuff at 5, then they taper or they die.I don't think

it means squat about the validity of their vision or light.  I also

can't imagine not remembering some of Blake because one loved another

poet. But life is past imagining , i am continually amazed. The saving

of ones light to me has been humour humor, humus , humor will get you

through nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no

humor.

p

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 22:21:00 -0700

Reply-To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         James Stauffer <stauffer@PACBELL.NET>

Subject:      Re: drugs and guns

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

 

 humor will get you

> through nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no

> humor.

> p

 

Patricia,

 

Thanks a lot for that one.  I get confused at times as to which is more

important--sex or humor.  Prefer both, but now I am reminded of where my

priorities should lie, so to speak.

 

And isn't it nice to see this list actually being interesting again.

Like a Phoenix from the ashes.  Thank God.

 

J Stauffer

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:22:04 -0500

Reply-To:     Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Patricia Elliott <pelliott@SUNFLOWER.COM>

Subject:      Re: drugs and guns

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Patricia Elliott wrote:

>

> James Stauffer wrote:

> >

> > Patricia Elliott wrote:

> >

> >  humor will get you

> > > through nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no

> > > humor.

> > > p

> >

> > Patricia,

> >

> > Thanks a lot for that one.  I get confused at times as to which is more

> > important--sex or humor.  Prefer both, but now I am reminded of where my

> > priorities should lie, so to speak.

> >

> > And isn't it nice to see this list actually being interesting again.

> > Like a Phoenix from the ashes.  Thank God.

> >

> > J Stauffer

patricia typed

> well variety helps a lot.  I have the edie book upstairs, not yet

> mailed. but this week for sur.  i just reply and hence lose any of the barbs

 and roses that spin off of our remarks.  some of the best threads have been the

 unexpected turn of the screw.

p

> p

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:31:20 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      more drugs and enlightenments

 

To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

 

In a message dated 97-06-16 01:10:29 EDT, you write:

 

<<

 All well and good to say, but you would probably not even value this

 kind of experience if you had not learned to from a drug based culture.

 Unless you had learned to value ephiphany from Catholicism or the

 meditative experience from Buddhism.  It comes from either drugs or

 religion.  We can all do it, but learning to value it is not a given.

 

 James

  >>

Indeed, i was into Buddhism way before i ever experimented with substances.

 But my only interest in enlightenment was as a way to gain insight into

being a better painter and sculptor.  Here in the US, drug use is so rampant

and widespread and has been going on for so long that we can no longer

separate its influence from out culture, especially in the arts.

 

As for existentialism, why do you see it as incompatible with

epiphanies/rediscovering your child-mind?  For me, existentialism goes with

these things.  Stripping things down to the bare absurd bleakness of it all,

and just when you're about to let go and stop bothering to breathe, you

suddenly find something really really small that reminds you why you want to

live, a stirring in your mind, and that is the most essential form of

enlightenment ever.  In fact, I sincerely believe that existentialism and

"enlightenments" need each other to form a soul capable of minimal wisdom.

 

 I see many connections between Sartre and buddhist enlightenment, for

instance.  Many writers in the post-war era were horribly dismal but through

all the despair the beauty of words still came through, even stood out more

in contrast, giving hope.  And showing a playfulness that some would

wrongfully attribute to drugs. And you bet they valued it.  In my opinion,

the best artists have always valued epiphanies, from the beginning of time.

 There are spontaneous enlightenments in the act of creating something that

come neither from drugs nor from religion.  Profane illuminations.

Of course, learning to value them is not a given.  But using drugs as a tool

to access them is a specious method.  Because as i said earlier, there are

many ways of seeing things that are not inducible by drugs.  And drugs can

make your mind take paths you don't really want to take, (or that seem ok

when you're high but reread later they're shallow and obvious) thereby

fucking up your work, whether it's writing/painting/whatever.  I guess that'

s not true for things other than pot and acid. Amphetamines and other uppers

make it hard to concentrate though, i find.  The only drug that i have ever

found a pleasant and stimulating companion for working is heroin (and opium

too i guess).  I have never had much trouble producing lots of stuff really

fast.  And I don't think that heroin has had as powerful a cultural impact as

the rest....well, obviously it has on me.  But it affects a deeper layer of

consciousness than the others.

 

  So anyway, there are my thoughts for the evening...have a good

night-------------------------------maya

 

PS...there i go opening my big mouth again.  i wonder if this means the

thought-police are going to send their internet-spies on my trail now for

talking too much!

=========================================================================

Date:         Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:40:20 +0000

Reply-To:     wirtz@ridgecrest.ca.us

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Mike & Barbara Wirtz <wirtz@RIDGECREST.CA.US>

Subject:      inspiration

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> << Inspiration makes one poetic. >>

> DC

hmmm...I muse that inspiration makes one an artist...perhaps even

semi-divine, but not necessarily a poet.  Some inspiriation could use

the elbow-grease of 99% perspiration before it becomes a great "work".

Admittedly, some works of genius flow...but not all logorrhea is great

art...and I wouldn't categorize much of it as poetry.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 01:50:20 -0500

Reply-To:     RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         RACE --- <race@MIDUSA.NET>

Subject:      Re: more drugs and enlightenments

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us existentialists and us nihilists are compleated misunderstood.  it

can became disabiling literally.  shun the titles.  i do not believe in

Nothing.  does the double negative twist into I believe in something or

is something NOT the opposite of Nothing. I believe in thing perhaps.

that might be a start.  but belief and a wooden nickel won't get you

water at the bar down the street ... it is a good start to this who

shambadoozle about ways of living - since we all seem to have life terms

and death sentences.  but only a beginning and from these beginings the

paths will undoubtedly diverge dramatically otherwise things would get

too crowded and block awareness of the origins of the realization that

you believe in thing when you say you don't believe nothing.  inverting

and twisting is sometimes necessary to slide past linguistic roadhouses

that leave so many of us stranded on weekends like this.  but the

roadhouses aren't bad places to socialize in collective stuckness.

 

david rhaesa

salina, Kansas

 

Maya Gorton wrote:

>

> To:     stauffer@pacbell.net

>

> In a message dated 97-06-16 01:10:29 EDT, you write:

>

> <<

>  All well and good to say, but you would probably not even value this

>  kind of experience if you had not learned to from a drug based culture.

>  Unless you had learned to value ephiphany from Catholicism or the

>  meditative experience from Buddhism.  It comes from either drugs or

>  religion.  We can all do it, but learning to value it is not a given.

>

>  James

>   >>

> Indeed, i was into Buddhism way before i ever experimented with substances.

>  But my only interest in enlightenment was as a way to gain insight into

> being a better painter and sculptor.  Here in the US, drug use is so rampant

> and widespread and has been going on for so long that we can no longer

> separate its influence from out culture, especially in the arts.

>

> As for existentialism, why do you see it as incompatible with

> epiphanies/rediscovering your child-mind?  For me, existentialism goes with

> these things.  Stripping things down to the bare absurd bleakness of it all,

> and just when you're about to let go and stop bothering to breathe, you

> suddenly find something really really small that reminds you why you want to

> live, a stirring in your mind, and that is the most essential form of

> enlightenment ever.  In fact, I sincerely believe that existentialism and

> "enlightenments" need each other to form a soul capable of minimal wisdom.

>

>  I see many connections between Sartre and buddhist enlightenment, for

> instance.  Many writers in the post-war era were horribly dismal but through

> all the despair the beauty of words still came through, even stood out more

> in contrast, giving hope.  And showing a playfulness that some would

> wrongfully attribute to drugs. And you bet they valued it.  In my opinion,

> the best artists have always valued epiphanies, from the beginning of time.

>  There are spontaneous enlightenments in the act of creating something that

> come neither from drugs nor from religion.  Profane illuminations.

> Of course, learning to value them is not a given.  But using drugs as a tool

> to access them is a specious method.  Because as i said earlier, there are

> many ways of seeing things that are not inducible by drugs.  And drugs can

> make your mind take paths you don't really want to take, (or that seem ok

> when you're high but reread later they're shallow and obvious) thereby

> fucking up your work, whether it's writing/painting/whatever.  I guess that'

> s not true for things other than pot and acid. Amphetamines and other uppers

> make it hard to concentrate though, i find.  The only drug that i have ever

> found a pleasant and stimulating companion for working is heroin (and opium

> too i guess).  I have never had much trouble producing lots of stuff really

> fast.  And I don't think that heroin has had as powerful a cultural impact as

> the rest....well, obviously it has on me.  But it affects a deeper layer of

> consciousness than the others.

>

>   So anyway, there are my thoughts for the evening...have a good

> night-------------------------------maya

>

> PS...there i go opening my big mouth again.  i wonder if this means the

> thought-police are going to send their internet-spies on my trail now for

> talking too much!

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 05:50:48 -0400

Reply-To:     GYENIS@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Attila Gyenis <GYENIS@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

 

In a message dated 97-06-14 15:03:13 EDT, gallaher@HSC.USC.EDU (Timothy K.

Gallaher) writes:

 

<< But, more seriously, and only peripherally beat related, if there is no

 meaning to life (I'm not saying there is or isn't), but assuming there isn't

 what is wrong with what the Nazis did or with what McVeigh was convicted of

 doing? >>

 

When I say there is no meaning to life, what I mean is that there is no

meaning  beyond this life that you are living. That doen't mean that this

life isn't important. It makes this life more important. I just don't think

that there is a greater purpose (that after we're dead that there's a reward

up  in heaven, doing gods bidding etc).

 

And it is because this is the only go around that what McVeigh did is so

terrible, stupid and wrong. Under my belief structure, what McVeigh did was

much more tragic because I don't think that the people who died have another

chance (like in heaven or some other afterlife).

 

The concept of heaven is like a safety net. It allows people to do a lot of

stuff that they wouldn't normally do and allows them not to worry about the

consequences. I think that if more people realized that there is no heaven or

afterlife, they would understand that this life (that we are living right

now) is sacred, and maybe do more to take take of it and treat it better.

 

enjoy, Attila

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:09:46 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: Kerouac: The meaning of life?

 

In a message dated 97-06-16 00:19:35 EDT, you write:

 

<< On the contrary, they had a clearer

 purpose and vision than most of us, sordid as it was.  If they thought there

 was no meaning to life, they probably wouldn't have done what they did.

  >>

I'm glad someone can still put meaning into words.  Drool, drool.

Charles Plymell

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:30:32 -0400

Reply-To:     CVEditions@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Pamela Beach Plymell <CVEditions@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

 

In a message dated 97-06-16 02:19:22 EDT, you write:

 

<< Allen G broke the

 stranglehold that the academicians had on poetry and opened the door for

 more natural poetry.  During my visit with Norse I asked him about this

 and he quoted me Eliot.  He said that Eliot and WSB are much the same in

 voice but that Eliot went English and WSB remained American in voice.

 He also said that it was no sin that Pound edited Eliot and that he had

 edited many of the beats, including Allen and that it was very painful

 to Allen. >>

Bentz

Yr. right. Pound was first to bust 'em up, blasting 'em wit imagisms.  Even

poor old Frost had to go to him 'cause the academics at the time wdnt touch

him. Then Allen and the beats, bless 'em busted the old canons that Frost

foddered, but in a way held dearly to the academe and finally endorsed it

subscribed to it, became it. Can't blame him though, Pam said he didn't have

social security. Except he did become a millionare largely on the govt

funding of the politics he damned. Something unheard of by Pound, or even Rod

McKuen, who dug it out his own self. Even with inspirational poetry!  Good

quote with Norse. Yes, you have to be melodramatiic around him! He's right. I

think I've read that bit of his somewhere. Both WSB & TS Eliot had that St.

Loius voice and B developed it authentically American down to the midwestern

humor

Charles Plymell.

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:04:56 -0400

Reply-To:     "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "R. Bentz Kirby" <bocelts@SCSN.NET>

Organization: Law Office of R. Bentz Kirby

Subject:      Re: lurker #254

Comments: To: CVEditions@AOL.COM

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

 

Pamela Beach Plymell wrote:

 

> In a message dated 97-06-15 23:28:07 EDT, you write:

>

> << In Love Song alone, Eliot address the physics of quatum mechanics

> and

>  what that means to our souls. >>

> Is that the line "but as if a magic lantern threw the nerves in

> patterns on a

> screen" I don't have the text.  I used to know the whole thing by

> heart. BTW

> Tesla memorized Twain's novels because books were scarce back in his

> country.

> He memorized Faust.too. That's how he came up with Alternating

> Current. We

> use his memory tonight!

> Charles Plymell

 

 Well he begins with what some might call "beat" lyrical quality:

 

>        Let us go then, you and I,

>When the evening is spread out against the sky

>Like a patient etherised upon a table;

>Let us go, through certain half-deserted streets,

>The muttering retreats

>Of restless nights in one-night cheap hotels

>And sawdust restaurants with oyster-shells:

 

Then does a cutsey thing with the fog=cat deal.

Then begins the chant of time to murder and create

Leading to the museum to the beginning of addressing the metaphysics by

pondering time and our effects on the universe by participation:

 

>Do I dare

>Disturb the universe?

>In a minute there is time

>For decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse.

 

>        For I have known them all allready, known them all --

>Have known all the evenings, mornings, afternoons,

>I have measured out my life with coffee spoons;

>I know the voices dying with a dying fall

>Beneath the music from a father room

>        So how should I presume?

 

Where is this farther room?  Remember the bus Further?  While it is

tempting to consider perhaps a string quartet that is playing at a

museum showing, I suspect that is the vehicle for the mermaids he hears

later, this muse does come from a farther room.   Eliot then compares

himself in time to a butterfly pinned and wriggling on the wall, and I

suspect we all feel that current.

 

He then goes back to sex, lonely men, self-depreciation and society til

he returns to the theme of life, time, and museums (Think that Dylan

thought of the line "Inside the museum, infinity goes up on trial, etc

without Eliot, I think not, he "borrowed" it from Prufrock.)

 

>I am no prophet -- and here's no great matter;

>I have seen the moment of my greatness flicker,

>And I have seen the eternal Footman hold my coat and snicker,

>And in short, I was afraid.

 

So Eliot only tells us in short about his fearsome contact with death

and his destiny and returns to address time and society and leading to

the culmination of the questions involving our interchange and exchange

with the field of energy, Charles this is the long way around to get to

your question about the quotation, but for those who seem to think Eliot

is lightweight, I wanted to show the structure and how he cleaverly

weaves the metaphysical question around the life experience that brought

to his mind the absurdity of the society that he had joined and chosen,

and the inner knowledge he had of our roles as the co-creators:

 

>To have bitten off the matter with a smile,

>To have squeezed the universe into a ball

>To roll it towards some overwhelming question,

 

....

 

>It is impossible to say just what I mean!

>But as if a magic latern threw the nerves in patterns on a screen:

>Would it have been worth while

>If one, settling a pillow or throwing off a shawl,

>And turning to the window, should say:

>        'That is not it at all,

>          That is not what I meant, at all.'

 

Notice first the implications of "I have bitten off the matter".  The

poem goes on to discuss the muses as mermaids luring Eliot to his death

if he wants true poetry.  The muses did lure Jack, Neal, Jimi, Jim, and

otheres.  Rimbaud ceased to write rather than follow them.

 

But the poem addresses it all when discussing what our "energy is" to

roll the world into a ball, and as Socrates said, we see the shadows on

the wall from the true light, not the true light and here Eliot address

it and the transitory nature of time and the temporal world.

 

I think an amazing tour de force that stretches into Dylan and beyond.

 

>        I should have been a pair of ragged claws

>Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.

 

Peace,

--

Bentz

bocelts@scsn.net

 

http://www.scsn.net/users/sclaw

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:38:46 -0400

Reply-To:     Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Tony Trigilio <atrigili@LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject:      Re: lurker speaks

In-Reply-To:  <33A42667.771F@owens.ridgecrest.ca.us>

Mime-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 

At 05:29 PM 6/15/97 +0000, you wrote:

>DC,

>        Quoting Alexander Pope:  "True ease in writing comes from art, not

>chance/ as those move easiest who have learned to dance"

>(Essay on Criticism)  Let's see...you say that TS Eliot is not

>memorable?....off the top of my head: "April is the cruellest month/

>breeding lilacs out the dead land/ Mixing memory and desire/ stirring

>dull roots with spring rain/  Winter kept us warm/ Covering earth in

>forgetful snow/ Feeding little life to dried tubers"   An astounding

>beginning..... I find myself using Eliot extensively when teaching 20th

>C lit..cross referencing during Fitzgerald, the lost generation, Miller,

>etc......

 

        I also find Eliot's voice cross-referencing itself all over the place when

I'm teaching twentieth-century literature.  I never have tried to rate

Eliot over Ginsberg or vice versa.  Their poetic concerns are radically

different (Eliot reaches to the metaphysicals, Ginsberg to the romantics)

and their poetic criticism is radically different (Eliot decries what he

calls Blake's "formlessness"; Ginsberg, meanwhile, hears Blake's voice as

an inspiration after masturbating).

 

        But their effects on their particular generations--or, to be more

specific, their *shaping* and *creation* of the generations in which they

lived and worked--were more profound, I think, than any other poets of the

century.  As far as I know, *Howl* and *The Waste Land* are the only

twentieth-century poems which have been published with their drafts in

their entirety in facsimile editions.  Please someone correct me if I'm

wrong.  I turn to this point about facsimile editions to try to establish a

connection between the effect these two poets had on readers throughout the

century.

 

        Ginsberg seems as self-consciously "poetic" as Eliot . . . mabye even more

self-consciously poetic, because *Howl* came under such vicious attack from

defenders of decorum (often academic, but of course not always).  He

carefully footnotes most of his collections, and in this way communicates

the literary, cultural, religious, and political influences he writes

within and against.  Like Eliot, Ginsberg's prose, essays, footnotes, and

interviews helped created his career nearly as much as his poetry did.

Allen's footnotes in the facsimile edition of *Howl* are eloquent and

valuable and, it seems to me, do an excellent job demonstrating that he was

working toward--and working within--a poetic form.

 

Tony

 

P.S.  I'm as guilty as anyone for forgetting at times just how experimental

Eliot was at the beginning of his career.  Just take a look at original

responses to the *Waste Land* in the academic and popular presses--writers

either hailed him as an avant-garde genius or as a fraud.  I think we

(myself included) too often confuse Eliot's tradition-minded and

decorum-minded critical essays with the experimental form of his early poetry.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Blake was astonished by his own imagination."

--Allen Ginsberg

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:14:19 -0400

Reply-To:     Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

Subject:      Re: Hunter

MIME-Version: 1.0

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Beat Friends. . .

 

        My familiarity with HST is zip, zilch, nada, nil, zero, cero, the big fat

goose egg.  But, while strolling the shelves at my local video store, I

found "Where the Buffalo Roam."  Is it worth my time?

 

Bruce

bwhartmanjr@iname.com

http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:24:49 -0400

Reply-To:     Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Alex Howard <kh14586@ACS.APPSTATE.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Hunter

In-Reply-To:  <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:

 

> goose egg.  But, while strolling the shelves at my local video store, I

> found "Where the Buffalo Roam."  Is it worth my time?

 

Of course it is!  Its Bill Murray!  Its Hunter S. Thompson!  What more can

you ask for?

 

------------------

Alex Howard  (704)264-8259                    Appalachian State University

kh14586@acs.appstate.edu                      P.O. Box 12149

http://www.acs.appstate.edu/~kh14586          Boone, NC  28608

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:37:53 -0400

Reply-To:     Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>

Subject:      Re: Hunter

Comments: To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>

MIME-Version: 1.0

Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

 

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:

 

>         My familiarity with HST is zip, zilch, nada, nil, zero, cero, the big

 fat

> goose egg.  But, while strolling the shelves at my local video store, I

> found "Where the Buffalo Roam."  Is it worth my time?

 

Yes! Great film.

 

HST speaking at U of Kentucky commencement last week: "Washington was a bum,

Jefferson was a bum ... Nixon was a liar, Reagan was a fool, Bush was a ...

My attorney has just informed me that the hospitality tent has just

restocked the Wild Turkey. I will continue my address there. ...

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:48:12 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: drugs and guns

Comments: To: pelliott@sunflower.com

 

In a message dated 97-06-16 03:48:34 EDT, you write:

 

<<  But life is past imagining , i am continually amazed. The saving

 of ones light to me has been humour humor, humus , humor will get you

 through nights of no sex but sex won't get you through knights of no

 humor.

 p >>

 

Have you ever seen the film, "Who framed Roger Rabbit?"?.  It's actually a

very trenchant film, about laughter and imagination (the cartoon characters)

fighting against Doom (the evil guy who never laughs).  Laughter and dreams

are a biological necessity without which we die.  If we are bitter and refuse

to laugh at anything, we are hurting ourselves, preventing ourselves from

really living.

 

---------------------maya

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:22:13 -0400

Reply-To:     Marioka7@AOL.COM

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Maya Gorton <Marioka7@AOL.COM>

Subject:      Re: more drugs and enlightenments

Comments: To: race@midusa.net

 

In a message dated 97-06-16 06:38:01 EDT, you write:

 

<< i do not believe in

 Nothing.  does the double negative twist into I believe in something or

 is something NOT the opposite of Nothing. I believe in thing perhaps.

 that might be a start.  but belief and a wooden nickel won't get you

 water at the bar down the street ... >>

 

Well, i believe in everything, maybe that's it. But i don't act on it, cause

not all of it is good. But it all exists.  In fact, every idea every human

ever had exists, because it can be realized, whether in the past, present, or

future.  Ideas don't die if they're communicated. They have their own kind of

DNA.  One little idea can be grafted into another person's brain, where it

will grow and perhaps mutate and turn into something different depending on

what environment it grows in.

 

I have to disagree with you....belief will get you everything.  Be careful

what you wish for, says Burroughs, you might get it.  So while I believe in

good and evil (evil being the things that lead me to near suicide, and good

being the things that give me pleasure)  I also believe in selective thought

processes.  What I mean is, if you believe that everything exists all the

time, like I do, you better be careful what you fantasize about.

 

  Example: my boyfriend dumped me for a girl he always said he hated.  This

hurt me alot.  I took old letters he had written me saying bad stuff about

her.  I wrapped them up in a t-shirt of his that i had.  I also had a lock of

his hair which he had goven me, so i put it in with the letters.  I made a

little voodoo doll and stabbed it in the stomach with a swiss army knife.  1

week later he calls me and begs me to go out with him again (i refused).  He

also tells me that he has been having horrible stomach cramps and had to go

to the hospital and throws up all the time and the doctors say it's a nervous

disorder they can' t do anything about.  The question is...Should I feel

guilty about this??? (he and that girl are now engaged).

 

Magic is very real, my friends, and we are all potential shamans.  So be sure

you are careful what you think about, because the mere act of thinking it

could make it real.  Nothing exists until you think it does.

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Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:50:18 -0600

Reply-To:     "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Derek A. Beaulieu" <dabeauli@FREENET.CALGARY.AB.CA>

Organization: Calgary Free-Net

Subject:      Re: Hunter

Comments: To: Bruce Hartman <bwhartmanjr@INAME.COM>

In-Reply-To:  <199706161518.LAA00829@everest>

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bruce

i think dr.hunter referred to the movie as "a piece of crap". you decide

if you wanna see it or not.

hahoo.

derek

 

On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Bruce Hartman wrote:

 

>

> Beat Friends. . .

>

>         My familiarity with HST is zip, zilch, nada, nil, zero, cero, the big

 fat

> goose egg.  But, while strolling the shelves at my local video store, I

> found "Where the Buffalo Roam."  Is it worth my time?

>

> Bruce

> bwhartmanjr@iname.com

> http://www.geocities.com/~tranestation

>

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:49:56 -0400

Reply-To:     MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         MARK NOFERI <NOFERI.MARK@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV>

Subject:      Eliot & Ginsberg

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I was glad to come back from the weekend and read all the really fascinating

 discussions going on - I wish I had

been able to take part, it's things like this that really make the Internet fun.

 

On Eliot and Ginsberg - I've always found it slightly strange that Ginsberg

 admires Eliot (which is the impression I get

from the list, anyway), because Ginsberg was influenced so heavily by Williams,

 and Wiliams specifically mentions

Eliot as an example to move away from - too formal, too academic, too British,

 too many veiled references. Instead,

Williams focused on creating an American poetry, based on American voices

 relating singuarly American

experiences. Ginsberg took this a step further, eventually finding his own voice

 to relate his own experiences.

 

So, open question -  did Ginsberg ever clarify this tension of admiring Eliot

 somewhat, but being heavily influenced by

Williams, who used Eliot as his example of everything _not_ to strive for in

 poetry?

 

Mark Noferi

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:28:48 -0700

Reply-To:     Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Gerald Nicosia <gnicosia@EARTHLINK.NET>

Subject:      Re: Epiphany in kerouac

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                                        June 16, 1997

James Stauffer wrote:

>It would be nice to get Nicosia to answer what documented contacts there

>are.  Kerouac had to be aware of those people as he moved in Buddhist

>circles with Kerouac and with East/West house people such as Lew Welch,

>Joanne Kyger, Lorraine Kandel, Tom Field, etc. Watts was a huge presence

>in SF in those years and Rexroth was also very knowledgable in Buddhist

>matters. All I really know about Jack's meditative practice is what you

>get in Dharma Bumms and Desolation Angels.  Would like to hear more

>facts about his contacts from the biographical experts.  But it is

>interesting that what worked for say Snyder and Kyger, worked only

>partially for Lew and Jack.  Whatever they learned sitting and Marin-An

>the bottle was still too much for both of them.  And of course it is

>rather judgmental to say that Jack and Lew failed.  Their lives were

>short, and not particularly happy, but they left great work behind. All

>lives are different. Of course Snyder, Kyger and Whalen followed up this

>time with intense work in Japan.

>

Dear James, Jean, and others:

        I honestly don't remember if Kerouac talked of meeting Watts, but

Watts did write some nasty put-downs of Kerouac in his book BEAT ZEN, SQUARE

ZEN, and ZEN.  I'm going from memory now, but I think the gist of Watts'

criticism was that Kerouac was too much into kicks to be a true Buddhist,

that he hadn't renounced sex and other pleasures enough and wasn't taking

his Buddhism seriously in terms of a daily practice.  Figure there might

have been some jealousy there too, since Watts had been trying to popularize

Buddhism for quite a while and never got the instant huge audience that

Kerouac did with DHARMA BUMS.  Rexroth surely felt the same jealousy toward

Kerouac, since he had been translating from Japanese and Chinese poets for

years.  On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for the fact that Jack

took just as much as he needed from Buddhism--to minimize the pain of his

own life--and left the rest.  When I talked with Snyder, his criticism of

Kerouac's Buddhism closely echoed that of Watts'.  Snyder felt that Kerouac

had been unwilling to "go all the way" with his Buddhism, and wouldn't give

up the God concept that true Buddhists are supposed to cut from themselves

with the sword of the Diamondcutter.

        Watts may have been a better Buddhist; Kerouac more confused; but

clearly Kerouac had the larger soul.

        Best, Gerry Nicosia

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:03:07 -0400

Reply-To:     "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Robert H. Sapp" <rhs4@CRYSTAL.PALACE.NET>

Subject:      my thoughts on the Ginsberg/Eliot debate

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'sup y'all,

 

I personally prefer Ginsberg's work on the whole, still i couldn't

classify Prufrock and the Hollow Men as anything but - visionary - in my

definition.

 

I think the ability to remember and recite lines of poetry from memory

is not an adequate indicator of worth. I mean, i can remember lots of

commercial slogans, but are they poetic? -- maybe they are... :)

"Image is Nothing," Sprite's somehow fizzling effervescent Image of

Imagelessness, hah!

 

nevertheless, for me the most memorable and profound part of the

Wasteland is just a two-word fragment:

 

Unreal City

 

one day i was pacing the living room in a haze meditating the validity o

reality vs. surreality and. . . unreality . . . and suddenly i recalled

reading Eliot's Wasteland a few days earlier in school, and i understood

what he meant, or what I THOUGHT he meant, which after all is probably

more important to a reader of poesy.

 

Whitman, who i regard perhaps the greatest poet of 'em all, rarely,

though occasionally, can i remember an actual exact written line sequence

of his free verse, but i can think of the FEELING or the idea of it,

which is more powerful.

 

well,

 

"In U.S. all intellectuals are deviants." WSB, from The Yage Letters

 

(from memory) hee hee hee...?!

 

if anyone cares,

Eric

rhs4@crystal.palace.net

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:19:01 -0400

Reply-To:     Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         Phil Chaput <philzi@TIAC.NET>

Subject:      A great song

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If anyone has realaudio go to this address http://www.riversong.com/ and

listen to the new song by folksinger Bob Martin called "Stella Kerouac" it

is a real treat. Phil Chaput

=========================================================================

Date:         Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:31:04 -0400

Reply-To:     "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>

Sender:       "BEAT-L: Beat Generation List" <BEAT-L@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>

From:         "Diane M. Homza" <ek242@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:      Re: Hunter

 

Reply to message from stutz@DSL.ORG of Mon, 16 Jun

>

>

>HST speaking at U of Kentucky commencement last week: "Washington was a bum,

>Jefferson was a bum ... Nixon was a liar, Reagan was a fool, Bush was a ...

>My attorney has just informed me that the hospitality tent has just

>restocked the Wild Turkey. I will continue my address there. ...

>

 

Did he really say this?  I was reading a column written by the "Minister of

Culture," Michael Heaton, in the Cleveland Plain Dealer Friday Magazine

which was supposed to be quotes from commencement speeches given by the

famous....this was one of them...I assumed Mr. Minister was making them up...

since I have no clue who HST is to begin with, I couldn't judge...

 

Diane.

 

--

Life is weird.  Remember to brush your teeth.

--Heidi A. Emhoff

                                                  ek242@cleveland.freenet.edu

                                                  Diane M. Homza

 



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